The fall 2017 enrollment figures are out and they look about as good as the Patriots defense last night.
Total enrollment is around 4,050. Last year it was around 4,440. In 2015 it peaked at around 4,540.
Freshman class is around 780. Last year it was around 850.
The law school has 31 first year students. The year before it was around 110. Simply stated, the law school cannot survive if next year's class is that small. The NY Times hit piece last year had to be a huge factor in this dramatic decline.
Paul
Is this a national trend for private colleges? The law school enrollment has really tanked, and this is a national trend.
Though I do not have the numbers, my understanding is that the College of Engineering enrollment has increased from the 2016-2017 academic year. Part of this could be due to adding biomedical as a new field.
Remember folks that the law school faculty has had significant cuts as well. I doubt they are staffed for a new class of 100 or more. The reality was that we were accepting people with very low test scores and more likely than not they also were not passing the bar at an acceptable pace. As a result the reputation had tanked and we were censured by the Bar Association. The test scores of this smaller group are much better.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/news/ct-ptb-valparaiso-law-censure-st-1119-20161117-story.html
Overall the numbers are alarming to me. Not sure what happened but will ask some questions when I am at Homecoming.
Enrollment dropped almost 8 or 9 percent from a year ago! This is obviously not good news. I will be interested to hear what caused this drop.
Quote from: usc4valpo on September 10, 2017, 05:35:36 PM
Enrollment dropped almost 8 or 9 percent from a year ago! This is obviously not good news. I will be interested to hear what caused this drop.
A large portion of Valpo's enrollment increase was based on International students. Since our dear US president has decided to "influence" (I hope that is a proper word for this situation) the amount of internationals coming into America it makes sense that his involvement has greatly effected Valpo's enrollment immediately. This is a guess on my part but it seems to be one of the answers for the reduction in enrollment.
Looks like the lower Law numbers are a direct results of Valpo Law raising standards in response to their 2016 censure: http://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/44565-valparaiso-law-incoming-class-significantly-smaller-but-posts-higher-lsats-and-gpas
Also, looks like both Law and Grad School numbers have nearly been halved since 2013/14. Whereas Law has hit a nadir, the grad school has receded to pre-Heckler numbers after a 5-year bump (not clear if that drop was strategic/expected/intentional, like the Law School's drop, or not). Undergrad remains at a near all-time high. In addition, the professional schools (everything that's not Arts and Sciences) continue to grow: http://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2016/06/FALL01-enrollment-by-college-Fall-2017.pdf
The law schools is definitely part strategy. They want to get their Bar passage rate up and they had lots of faculty take buy-outs.
From what I under the Graduate schools is a function of many things. Lower international enrollment due to some countries cutting back and our national atmosphere. Valpo is still a relatively new graduate schools and benefited from some high graduate numbers (as people seeking an education increase in a down economy). My guess is that we are generally in a more competitive environment and the school is going to need to make changes to increase numbers that maybe came misleadingly easy for too long.
Undergraduate continues to be solid with improvements in retention so I hope that a renewed focus in the graduate school will lead to increased numbers over the next few years.
A drop in enrollment of over 200 for the College of Arts and Sciences really stands out.
Makes perfect sense with the current administration. Since he is discouraging employers from hiring employees at a Junior level that require an H-1B visa, there is no incentive to come to the US for school. Essentially, the US would be saying that you can come spend money in our schools, but we won't hire you until you get more years of experience. International students will instead go to other European institutions, China, or Russia.
Where are the statistics saying that Arts and Science are down by 200? I missed those.
I wonder what is the international share of that college? When I attended, the international students were most numerous in the engineering college.
Graduate school enrollment for the College of Arts and Sciences dropped in one year from 636 to 426. That is a major drop.
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 11, 2017, 08:51:58 PM
Graduate school enrollment for the College of Arts and Sciences dropped in one year from 636 to 426. That is a major drop.
Ouch! Those are Missouri type reductions.
International students:
Butler 64 of 4797 = 1%
Valpo 722 of 4524 = 16%
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Quote from: wh on September 15, 2017, 12:33:38 PM
International students:
Butler 64 of 4797 = 1%
Valpo 722 of 4524 = 16%
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
My esteemed friend, we will have to disagree on this one. Butler is an example of protecting the lily white kids from the evils of this world. Their student body is 82% white and 60% female at that. Nearly half their kids are from Indiana. That is not the real world. It may be the Valparaiso, Indiana world but not Chicago or any other major city. I used to live in Minneapolis, hardly known for its diversity. Yet when I walked into a grocery store the reality was that I felt like I had just walked into the United Nations. Dallas? Holy smokes, white people in many very nice areas are almost in the minority. It is the world we live in.
Now, Valpo could "protect" their students from those who are "different" or they could do as Mike Avery has done by producing and promoting the "One Valpo" theme. The diversity at Valpo is hardly leading the pack (still 71% white) but some exposure to different cultures will serve the students well when they actually enter the "real world". Valpo, unlike Butler, draws students from virtually all states and many foreign countries as you've noted. Heck, just the athletes at Valpo hail from 31 states and 10 foreign countries.
Unfortunately, 78Cruader called it on law school closure. Will the other trends be turned around? Or will layoffs move into the general university?
The fall 2017 enrollment figures are out and they look about as good as the Patriots defense last night ----(Sept. 8, 2017 post date from 78Cruader).
Total enrollment is around 4,050. Last year it was around 4,440. In 2015 it peaked at around 4,540.
Freshman class is around 780. Last year it was around 850.
The law school has 31 first year students. The year before it was around 110. Simply stated, the law school cannot survive if next year's class is that small. The NY Times hit piece last year had to be a huge factor in this dramatic decline.
Valparaiso needs to look at external trends and how they relate to demand. Strengthen and expand in the areas where there is projected to be higher demand and make hard decisions about trimming and eliminating lower demand programs. Great moves to add business analytics (business school), bioengineering, and physician's assistant programs. All of these relate to high demand career areas (and they pay well). The law school had problems and the national demand is down versus the number of law schools - probably best to make the hard decision to scale it back or eliminate it. There are probably some hard decisions that need to be made regarding Liberal Arts programs, as suggested by the dramatic decline in graduate enrollment in Arts and Sciences.
Good points. Trends in demand should be the first and foremost thoughts.
The likely cuts in Arts and Science you predict will be particularly likely due the increasing similrity of Valpo liberal arts majors to the dozens and hundreds of schools where you can get those degrees. 78Crusder and others have commented articulately about our growing lack of distinction and identify.
During the SE La game webcast I saw an attractive ad for Valpo citing its "passion."
Passion is a means not an end. Passion for what?
If I were the University I would probably double down on Business & STEM programs and maybe reassess which liberal arts programs are trending up and down.
In Valparaiso's Master Plan which is 3-4 maybe 5 years old now they laid out a vision stating "It anticipates the student population growing to 6,000 in less than a decade – a 50 percent increase."
"Valparaiso University's strategic plan,
Our Common Pursuit, is visionary and
ambitious. We have imagined that student
enrollment will increase from approximately
4,000 students today to 6,000 students in
less than a decade. Faculty and staff levels
will rise to support a larger student body.
Consequently campus facilities must expand
and improve to support this growth. The
evolution of the University's facilities must
continue and accelerate."
We've headed in the wrong direction in terms of enrollment.
https://www.valpo.edu/masterplan/assets/docs/VU%20MP%20Exec%20Summary_final.pdf
In regards to the Fall enrollment stats, I received something in the mail today that mentions our entering class is the largest in 28 years. Are they referencing last year?
The UG entering class is the largest. The low numbers are in the Graduate and law school.
I cast my vote for December basketball team record. An optimistic 5-2 that says we lose only the road games vs Purdue and Northwestern .
Now, here are two goals stated in print by VU leadership. Pick the year when each will be reached. Which will be met first?
A) $250 million dollar goal of "Forever Valpo" campaign. (its recent pace projects to end in May 2023).
B) 6,000 student enrollment. The VU masterplan brochure of 2013-ish says,"we imagine growth from 4,000 students to 6,000 students within a decade."
interesting article in the NYT
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/us/international-enrollment-drop.html?_r=0
The decline in available first years is noted and I know that Valpos has been hit by the declining pop. in the idwest as well as decreased international applications
International students won't want to study in the US, if the Trump administration gets its way, and closes the OPT program. This will effect Valpo dramatically, as that has been one of our main growth strategies.
I agree, our higher eduction is one of this countries best and biggest exports.
I suggest to the moderator of the board that the ML2 posts and related ones be moved to a General University thread. Either this one or the Construction on Campus thread.
The "Facilities" thread addresses the type of facilities desired for basketball. The borrowing and bonds topic is VERY RELATED to the likelihood of athletics building in the near future. But it has broader implications.
There should be some year-over-year data comparisons at this point that predict enrolment (applications submitted, visits to campus)
The FAFSA filing is much earlier and students get award packages earlier. The award package usually is the tipping point for private college student applications. By March 31 some predictions will start to form that will probably prove out in August.
Earlier posts from others in this thread show the importance of the masterplan and the 6,000 student goal stated in 2013.
The 2019-2020 deposits are likely wrapped up now. The new VP hopefully pulled the numbers upward.
Has anyone seen or heard the sentiment for the 19-20 numbers?
I don't think we get those until the fall but everything I heard was to anticipate them being lower both due to expected decline in enrollment in general and the switch to a new company and strategy combined with the fast transition of needing a new VP enrollment at a crucial time.
Switch to what new company?
Most universities contract out to help them identify students to target (much like sales teams get ledes). From what I understand the goal was to move to a company that employs a more targeted strategy identifying the types of students who most succeed at Valpo and putting more effort in on recruiting them while the prior company was much more of a wide net approach. I've heard from someone that the problem with the wide net strategy was that they felt that they weren't able to best focus on the types of students most likely to come and be successful at valpo and so wanted a more focused strategy. The problem with switching to that strategy is that it pays more dividends a year or two later after the students you've been targeting since sophomores are finally applying vs trying to get in front of seniors that you have not have been contacting enough prior so generally universities who switch to this style see a dip the first year.
Quote from: crusader05 on July 10, 2019, 11:19:55 AM
I don't think we get those until the fall but everything I heard was to anticipate them being lower both due to expected decline in enrollment in general and the switch to a new company and strategy combined with the fast transition of needing a new VP enrollment at a crucial time.
It sounds like the university is replacing one enrollment management consulting firm with another. Is this true? Whichever the case, I'm a huge believer in the value of using consultants for assistance in dealing with complex issues. The key is finding someone with vast experience and proven results in working with similar types of universities and settings - no cookie-cutter solutions. Good companies develop and work from an issue-specific strategic plan, complete with action steps, timelines, etc. The good ones go so far as to commit to a range of expected results within a specific time-frame.
Here's a testimonial from Wisconsin-Parkside about an enrollment management consultant they worked with:
"The conversion rates are tremendous. Since Full Measure implementation our campaigns have driven our completion rates, confirmed rates and overall first year enrollment. We have seen a growth of over 11% in less than one year.
Troy Moldenhauer
Director of Admissions and Recruitment, University of Wisconsin, Parksidehttps://fullmeasure.io/portfolio/boosting-orientation-registrations-with-text-messaging/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvuC9x8Ct4wIVnf_jBx0OHQ5cEAAYASAAEgKeMPD_BwE
Would love to have a more Hillsdale like strategy. They really seem to be able to target the type of student that fits their niche.
Is it really that difficult to figure out that a Lutheran kid from Ft. Wayne is more likely a better fit at VU than, say, an international student from Croatia? Or that a kid from a small high school in Wisconsin might feel more comfortable in Valparaiso, Indiana than a student from inner city Newark, NJ?
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on July 11, 2019, 03:19:32 PMIs it really that difficult to figure out that a Lutheran kid from Ft. Wayne is more likely a better fit at VU than, say, an international student from Croatia?
Wish they recruited Fort Wayne harder. The number of kids going to Valpo from Concordia Lutheran High School has declined significantly over the last 25 years. I would be willing to bet that more kids from CLHS have gone to Calvin in the last ten years than have gone to VU. And oh by the way, Calvin which is the #1 Regional
College in the Midwest, just became a university on July 8th. It will be interesting to see how that works out as they enter a new classification in the US News rankings.
When was the old company originally hired? The reason I ask is that I used to volunteer with the VAN for college fairs. A few years back Valpo suddenly stopped participating in them in the DC area, which I found a bit odd.
Valpo has done a terrible job in recruiting the Ft. Wayne area, especially in recent years, which is very disappointing. I believe that they have missed many opportunities in both the academic and athletic areas.
Quote from: valpo64 on July 11, 2019, 08:30:12 PM
Valpo has done a terrible job in recruiting the Ft. Wayne area, especially in recent years, which is very disappointing. I believe that they have missed many opportunities in both the academic and athletic areas.
I raised the Lutheran issue with the last VP of Enrollment, suggesting that one admission counselor be dedicated to only recruiting Lutheran high schools. He may have been a talented guy, but was also a Catholic with no known ties or understanding of the Lutheran school systems. I note that the new guy is a graduate of Concordia, (not sure which one) so hopefully there may be an increased effort toward places like Fort Wayne.
Having lived in Minnesota where close to half the population is Lutheran, it was very disappointing to find the lack of knowledge as to even the existence of Valpo. Having said that, it is only fair to point out the many Lutheran college competitors in the region. None, however, have the professional schools offered at Valpo. There simple needs to be a bigger effort.
My daughter and I went on a tour last April, and she crossed Valpo off the list afterwards. She wants to major in education and we did not see distinct value in their program compared to other schools we visited - it felt as if they have an education program to fill a hole.
I think Valpo needs to invest much more on STEM related education as that is where the long term demand lies.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 13, 2019, 04:53:02 PMI think Valpo needs to invest much more on STEM related education as that is where the long term demand lies.
Not sure what else they can do. They just added a brand new $60 million Bio/Chem building. Have also added a human cadaver lab (which is very rare for colleges). Engineering has added an environmental engineering degree as well and is ranked in the top 20 undergrad programs in the nation.
I'm sorry your daughter didn't find the education department satisfactory. My understanding is that, as with all Valpo teaching in general, an outstanding program.
Honestly and objectively, we did not get that impression. The facilities, curriculum, and student teaching opportunities were limited. Living on campus for three years was not a plus.
I think Valpo needs to recruit nationwide and worldwide - the world outside of Valparaiso, Indiana is quite different and learning and collaboration from a diversity student body is critical to make it in this world. That being said, being a proud Lutheran Christian university also needs to part of the mission. Reverence and diversity can be effectively integrated at a university, it happens at many colleges nationwide.
Quote from: vu72 on July 14, 2019, 08:30:49 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 13, 2019, 04:53:02 PMI think Valpo needs to invest much more on STEM related education as that is where the long term demand lies.
Not sure what else they can do. They just added a brand new $60 million Bio/Chem building. Have also added a human cadaver lab (which is very rare for colleges). Engineering has added an environmental engineering degree as well and is ranked in the top 20 undergrad programs in the nation.
I'm sorry your daughter didn't find the education department satisfactory. My understanding is that, as with all Valpo teaching in general, an outstanding program.
Why would your daughter spend $25K+ a year to receive an education in education? I'm not well versed here, but isn't the expected income for teachers in most districts $40k to $50k annually even after years of tenure?
Teaching sounds like her passion and that's awesome, because we need good teachers. But why spend Valpo tuition on something that a Ball State tuition is more than adequate for?
More like Iowa State or UNI, which is where we live. I totally agree.
A few comments on postings in this thread:
-If the enrollment numbers are down, it should be attributed to people not doing their job effectively. Saying "we changed companies" or "the effects from our new strategy have not taken effect" is a self-protecting attribution that ultimately leads to less accountability and future performance.
-Someone said "what else can be done to promote STEM?" I do not think that is the main issue. If the university is making a greater investment in STEM (a great idea), it needs to make hard decisions where not to spend money. Good strategy involves pruning as well as new investment in key areas, otherwise you are likely to not have a revenue stream to support your investment.
-The 'reverence and diversity' idea is great and what I believe Valpo should pursue (i.e. we have a great religious-oriented program of which you are free to choose your level of involvement). However, this is extremely hard to market to people looking for a religiously oriented university. Many prospective students (and their parents) who prioritize that experience would seem to be more likely to go to a school like Concordia, WI (Lutheran), Baylor (Baptist), etc. where the religious environment is the only accepted and allowed environment. I do not think that Valpo will (or should even try to) satisfy those students who seek a religious environment focused on a single accepted set of beliefs.. Not sure what the answer is here from a marketing perspective, but it seems a much more difficult issue that many might assume. Perhaps something can be learned from the many Catholic universities that are more successful in balancing reverence and diversity (e.g., Creighton, Marquette, Dayton)
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 14, 2019, 11:44:21 AM
More like Iowa State or UNI, which is where we live. I totally agree.
Ball park, what's the "real" tuition difference between Valpo and UNI? I strongly disregard List Price that Valpo publishes and wonder what the difference is with your daughters offers. Please just ball park it, I don't think it's my right to ask but hoping you might share.
Interesting note...a few years ago our grand daughter applied to both Valpo and Indiana U. When all was said and done the total cost between the 2 schools was nearly identical. She chose IU only because of the study area at IU was exactly what she wanted.
I was pleased to see Valpo on a few Software Engineer resumes in the last few months. I even hired one away from Amazon :).
Pruning would be required, and some programs may need to be closed or reduced. It happens at all colleges. You need to consider placing your eggs in the right basket.
From what we are seeing, if I can estimate, the difference is about around 10k to 15k a year more to attend Valpo. The big issue, however, is the program - UNI has a great teachers school reputation.
Quote from: vu84v2 on July 14, 2019, 12:22:45 PM-Someone said "what else can be done to promote STEM?" I do not think that is the main issue. If the university is making a greater investment in STEM (a great idea), it needs to make hard decisions where not to spend money. Good strategy involves pruning as well as new investment in key areas, otherwise you are likely to not have a revenue stream to support your investment.
It does seem that "Athletics" is a department where hard decisions where NOT to spend money have been made. Unfortunately for recruiting and enrollment I believe most of us feel that has NOT been a wise decision.
The big challenge is figuring out how much cash to place in each bucket to get the most benefit,
Vu84v2 - Baylor is about 30 percent Baptist. 38 percent of the student body are minorities.
I do think there's also a difference between enrollment numbers being down (which just means that there are not as many students enrolling) and not meeting their target. I don't know if they met it or not but I do know that they said that the wide net strategy was getting them big classes but with retention the numbers dwindled because a percentage of them were just not good fits so the belief was it would be better to have slightly smaller classes that are more likely and able to stay at Valpo.
Last year 60% of universities missed their target goals and I've heard this year is worse so I'd imagine when I heard numbers were down it meant both just down in general as expected and not at the target but I don't know for sure.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 14, 2019, 08:36:59 PM
Vu84v2 - Baylor is about 30 percent Baptist. 38 percent of the student body are minorities.
Interesting...but I think that the following from Baylor's page on Christian Commitment is pretty clear:
During the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries, prestigious institutions of higher education founded on Christian principles began a relentless retreat from their spiritual heritage. During that time and into the Twenty-first Century, Baylor has remained one of the few to persist in the belief that not only can its Baptist heritage inform a vital approach to life in general, it can also inform the life of the mind specifically.
Baylor continues to hold firm to the conviction that the world needs a preeminent research university that is unambiguously Christian, where such a commitment does not imply a lack of scholarly inquiry, but rather requires scholarship and creative endeavors at the highest levels of quality to complement and inform its teaching and service.
BAYLOR strives to be "Unambiguously Christian.." Bingo!!
Valpo seems to be currently quite weak in making that proclamation. The Baylor statement cites boldly the secular drift that has occurred over the last three centuries plus. Harvard was founded with explicitly Christian statements.
As recently as the 1980s and 90s we heard Valparaiso Presidents and leaders say, "Valparaiso is a university under the cross." Increasingly it seems that Valpo apologizes for that. And that trend seems to be quickening since the arrival of the current President. Are we sure that blurring our identity increases applicants and students?
So what is our core identity? I hear "Faith and Values" sometimes.....Faith in whom or what?....Whose values? Do we hold Islam equal to Judeo-Christianity even though Islam clearly subordinates other religions by force and denigrates women? We fool ourselves to blend or equate them.
Baylor is also going to get left in the dust in the next realignment a clear tier or two lower than the Big XII schools that are lucky enough to escape to the Big 10 or SEC.
When do you think the Big 12 will split? And why would Baylor be left out? Their athletics have been great in the past decade.
Baylor's biggest concern would be if free state tuition is the law in the US. same goes for Valpo and most private schools.
Why do you feel that any Big 12 schools would leave for the Big 10? Nebraska was an outlier.
How does commentary on Baylor's athletic conference fit into a thread titled "Enrollment Numbers."?
We are talking about the strategic plan and mission/identity of Valpo and how that potentially (or not) impacts enrollment. Baylor is just held up as an example for clarity of mission and its high quality.
Start another thread for Big 12 conference alignmens ya da ya da etc.
And where do VU enrollment numbers stand to anyone's knowledge? Heckle should take a bow or otherwise.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 22, 2019, 10:25:38 AMAnd where do VU enrollment numbers stand to anyone's knowledge? Heckle should take a bow or otherwise.
I've been told the freshman class is about 650 and another 150+ transfers in. This was confirmed by the Times reporter when she wrote
"More than 800 freshman and transfer students and 175 graduate students, some having already attended their first college classes earlier that morning, welcomed the beginning of their Valparaiso University experience in Tuesday afternoon's 91st Annual Opening Convocation at VU's Chapel of the Resurrection."
https://www.nwitimes.com/news/education/something-bigger-vu-president-encourages-community-relationships-during-convocation/article_d6790d6a-cc90-5f33-99dd-a2b2cc60970c.html
Quote from: crusadermoe on July 15, 2019, 02:02:36 PM
BAYLOR strives to be "Unambiguously Christian.." Bingo!!
Valpo seems to be currently quite weak in making that proclamation. The Baylor statement cites boldly the secular drift that has occurred over the last three centuries plus. Harvard was founded with explicitly Christian statements.
As recently as the 1980s and 90s we heard Valparaiso Presidents and leaders say, "Valparaiso is a university under the cross." Increasingly it seems that Valpo apologizes for that. And that trend seems to be quickening since the arrival of the current President. Are we sure that blurring our identity increases applicants and students?
So what is our core identity? I hear "Faith and Values" sometimes.....Faith in whom or what?....Whose values? Do we hold Islam equal to Judeo-Christianity even though Islam clearly subordinates other religions by force and denigrates women? We fool ourselves to blend or equate them.
OK, back to the topic at hand. You seem to embrace "unambiguously Christian". What does that mean? How is a student included if he or she is non-Christian...or are they not welcome? If they are Christian, what if they are not the "right" type of Christian? Who decides what is the right type of Christian (and inherently decides what
is not the right type of Christian)?
In regards to Islam, have you ever personally known muslims? Many who make such statements have never had a meaningful conversation, let alone a friendship with a muslim. They just listen to or read their media of choice. My experience with the many muslims that I have had the privilege of knowing is that they have ambitions similar to most Americans and welcome the freedoms and opportunities provided in this country.
I agree.
When I was a student Valpo's faith life felt very restricted between being Lutheran at the Chapel and Catholic at Saint Ts with little in between.
Now there are numerous faith groups on campus that all work together under a campus ministries umbrella. Where people who are not Lutheran still go to Candlelight and Celebrate. That, to me, feels like a more warm, inviting and overall Christian environment, than when I was there and Alliance experienced their posters and chalking being destroyed or disfigured and after 9/11 having an open faith service be criticized.
Quote from: crusader05 on August 22, 2019, 11:12:11 AMNow there are numerous faith groups on campus that all work together under a campus ministries umbrella. Where people who are not Lutheran still go to Candlelight and Celebrate. That, to me, feels like a more warm, inviting and overall Christian environment,
I think those who think that some how Valpo has abandoned their faith values, should actually look at Valpo's webpage and explore its faith identity, rather than taking uninformed shots.
Go a head, try it!
https://www.valpo.edu/student-life/faith/
crusadermoe - narrow as it sounds, an athletic conference affiliation may have an effect on enrollment. And BTW, you started the Baylor discussion.
Also, you are not going to find a larger national religiously affiliated university that does not make space for inter-faith or no faith activities. Baylor has interfaith prayer times and a Muslim student associations and all of those things.
Yes, all should be allowed and given every free speech privilege.
But try a clear website statement of where you stand.
And yet I brought up Baylor but in that context. We are clearly not in their league in athletics/research etc. any more than we are in Notre Dame's.
What does Baylor do on their website that Valpo doesn't.
This is the first message that you get if you click on the link that VU72 posted
FAITH
YOUR SPIRITUAL JOURNEY WILL BE ENCOURAGED AND STRENGTHENED NO MATTER YOUR PATH.
As an independent Lutheran institution, faith is in our nature. Whatever your tradition, you will find a caring community that will support you in your spiritual life.
This seems like an appropriate and clear statement of where the university stands.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 22, 2019, 03:26:14 PMBut try a clear website statement of where you stand.
I asked you to take a look and apparently you chose not to. Try these statements on for size.
Our Lutheran Tradition
Universities, like congregations, are continually in the process of realizing their aspirations. Never fully achieved, an institution's expression of its mission and vision capture its core hope and inspire its efforts to meet the challenges and opportunities of the day.
From its inception as a Lutheran university in 1925, Valparaiso University's mission and vision has led it to intentionally and vigorously imbue its students with a sense of vocation that fosters spiritual maturity and significant service in home, job, congregation, community, and the world.
The means through which this life-giving understanding is learned and re-enforced is a rigorous pursuit of academic excellence in an environment that reflects a Lutheran Christian understanding of life, human nature, the church, corporate worship, and the study of the Scripture and theology.
From its Lutheran beginnings, Valparaiso University's grasp of the importance of Christian vocation has been deeply influenced by the dreams and needs of Lutheran clergy and laity and the congregations they serve.
Connection Faith to Life
The distinctive Lutheran character of Valparaiso University is enhanced by the connection of our everyday life to the Christian faith. Many Christians, especially Lutherans, talk about this in terms of "vocation," referring to a variety of worthy paths of life and service in the world, a concept that reaches far beyond "church vocations." Valparaiso University students, alumni, faculty, staff, and administrators live out across campus and throughout the world this relationship of Christian faith to our daily life. Assisting students to discover and affirm their calling in life is part of the mission of the University community.
As one crosses the campus, several examples of this intersection between faith and life can be discovered. From the engineers designing irrigation systems for remote African villages to nurses exploring elder care, from educators preparing for the classroom to business students assisting local businesses with ethical decisions, from artists preparing for service to the church to worship gatherings, this connection between daily life and faith radiates throughout the campus community.
Our Lutheran Character
Valparaiso University is an independent Lutheran comprehensive university committed to excellence in liberal arts and professional education. Its distinctive heritage, hospitable to the interaction of religious faith and secular learning, provides a solid foundation for an educational community dedicated to serving humanity through the vigorous pursuit of truth and the transmission of knowledge. As a university, we seek to ask humankind's deepest questions with clarity and sharpness and to test answers to those questions by means of research and reason, hypothesis and experiment, imagination and art.
Independent of ecclesiastical control, Valparaiso University maintains close and friendly ties with all the Lutheran churches. Through its various programs and graduates, it supports the efforts of all people to relate to the surrounding culture with a sense of relevance and hope in the face of the culture's ambiguities. On campus, it energizes those activities with the ennobling vision of God's gracious, transforming purpose for the whole creation. Those efforts are nourished by Lutheranism's sense of sacrament: that finite creation and creatures of God can be bearers of God's infinite grace. And those efforts are carried out with a gospel-given sense of freedom to pursue truth and understanding wherever the search may lead. To be a university faithful to the founders' vision, Valparaiso University strives to be a place where fundamental issues are explored from all angles with intellectual rigor, integrity, openness, and respect — a place where faith and learning are held together in lively interaction.
The University's commitments to excellent teaching and learning, to scholarship and service, are informed by the recognition that scholarship, freedom, and faith are ultimately grounded in the gospel's promise of God's unconditioned grace. Likewise, its commitments to justice and to inter-Lutheran, intra-Christian, and interfaith dialogue, in which all members of the University community have an honored part, are shaped by the conviction that all people are equally God's creatures and equally the objects of God's gracious love. Accordingly, the University attracts individuals from all Christian churches and from other religious traditions who are committed to academic excellence and are interested in sympathetic and critical engagement with the Christian intellectual tradition.
The Chapel of the Resurrection at the center of campus symbolizes the University's commitment to sustain a gospel ministry of word and sacrament for the nurturing of faith. Similarly, in an effort to connect faith and life, the University requires all students to engage in intensive study of theology as a part of its general education curriculum so that they have opportunity to reflect on issues of faith and value and to develop a mature and vital understanding of the intersection of Christian thought, faith, and practice. By combining the spirit and methods of the modern university and the perspective and freedom and courage emanating from the Christian tradition, this Lutheran University seeks to produce graduates who are able to bring Christian intellectual and moral life into mutual engagement with the best of contemporary culture and learning, and who thus are able to make their distinctive contribution to humanity.
With the recent NWI times article that mentions there being 800 new freshmen and transfer students on campus. That is better then last years 780 number and 50 off the prior years 850 correct? If true we still need acceptance rate and retainment rate but does not seem to be as bad as most of us may have thought.
It is hard to tell with just those numbers whether the situation is good or bad. You need to also know what is the average discount rate (which reflects the real price paid by students). Those numbers with a discount rate of 10% would be amazing and with a discount rate of 50% would be awful.
I have no idea on the historic numbers for transfer-in students, but those numbers seem high. I have no problem, of course, if those numbers reflect a new niche that Valpo has found (or if that is just the normal rate).
VU72 raises good points with his (lengthy) quotes from our website. Not one reference, however, to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. Hebrews 12:2
Paul
I don't believe our discount rate has changed so my guess is they are at levels of past years.
I have heard Graduate numbers are up a bit and that Transfers were slightly up while incoming first years were down so it all seems relatively a wash until we know more about retention from past years.
Quote from: crusader05 on August 23, 2019, 06:49:00 AM
I don't believe our discount rate has changed so my guess is they are at levels of past years.
I have heard Graduate numbers are up a bit and that Transfers were slightly up while incoming first years were down so it all seems relatively a wash until we know more about retention from past years.
Thank you for the response. The reason that I brought up discount rate is that I have heard of a few private midwestern universities that have dramatically increased their discount rate to keep their attendance numbers, which is obviously not a good sign for those schools. Since they are private, it is difficult to rigorously confirm those discount rates at those schools - but my sources are likely to have a good idea of what is going on.
Great point that you need retention numbers to get the full picture.
Quote from: 78crusader on August 22, 2019, 08:44:42 PM
VU72 raises good points with his (lengthy) quotes from our website. Not one reference, however, to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. Hebrews 12:2
Paul
However, I did count the mention of "Christian" (Christian = Christ = Jesus) and "God" 14 times. And the term "Lutheran" is repeated at least 10 times. Seems pretty clear where the university is positioning itself.
Quote from: VULB#62 on August 23, 2019, 08:42:02 AM
Quote from: 78crusader on August 22, 2019, 08:44:42 PM
VU72 raises good points with his (lengthy) quotes from our website. Not one reference, however, to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. Hebrews 12:2
Paul
However, I did count the mention of "Christian" (Christian = Christ = Jesus) and "God" 14 times. And the term "Lutheran" is repeated at least 10 times. Seems pretty clear where the university is positioning itself.
It seems that this is the key point of this debate. At least on the Valpo website, there are many references to Lutheran heritage and Christian traditions. However, references to Jesus Christ on Valpo's website seem difficult to find at best.
This is in contrast to Baylor's website, where phrases like the following occur in many places : "Today, Baylor remains a place where the Lordship of Jesus Christ is embraced, studied, and celebrated." https://www.baylor.edu/illuminate/index.php?id=951740 (https://www.baylor.edu/illuminate/index.php?id=951740). This is from the first pillar of Baylor's strategic plan (2018-2022).
I'm not trying to have a point by point comparison of Valpo and Baylor's websites. However, a good question for our next president and board is if Valpo would endorse or deny the following, ""Today, Valparaiso remains a place where the Lordship of Jesus Christ is embraced, studied, and celebrated."
VU72, I do stand corrected on the website in large degree.
Thank you for pointing it out. On a technical point, it is not as succint as Baylor's. And by mentioning Christian just once or twice in a long monologue, it does not step up as strongly as Baylor. And VU78 does point out as well that Jesus Christ is not explicitly mentioned.
But VU does go further in its statement that the dozens of schools once founded by Christians (Harvard's founding was explicit). I don't have time to read and confirm those dozens of schools' websites for you right now, but over time I have looked at many of them while my daughters were in high school.
Well Valpo95 certainly called out the question the VU Board needs to ponder as it calls the next President. Wow.
You can't punt that one in our current times. "Choose this day whom you will serve."
Back to the original topic of this thread, today is September 19. I have not followed much lately. Have enrollment numbers been shared somewhere?
Should Valparaiso simply follow that Baylor statement? Maybe it would be better to work with Valpo's "In luce tua, videmus lucem." Something along these lines:
The motto of our university is "In thy Light, we see light." By this statement we affirm that Jesus Christ is the Light of the world, the light no darkness can overcome. Christ is a light to our feet and a lamp to our path. He bids us follow Him in confident faith and in service to others.
The total enrollment numbers are down quite a bit as far as I can tell. In terms of undergraduates (no grad / law), the numbers are as follows (for the Fall of each year)
2019 3011
2018 3220
2017 3255
2016 3299
For reference, the total students (including graduate students) is 3521 in 2019.
As far as I can tell, the number of incoming freshman (Fall 2019) is 587. This is below the number of 748 for Fall of 2018.
Quote from: valpo95 on September 25, 2019, 12:32:07 PM
The total enrollment numbers are down quite a bit as far as I can tell. In terms of undergraduates (no grad / law), the numbers are as follows (for the Fall of each year)
2019 3011
2018 3220
2017 3255
2016 3299
For reference, the total students (including graduate students) is 3521 in 2019.
As far as I can tell, the number of incoming freshman (Fall 2019) is 587. This is below the number of 748 for Fall of 2018.
There were about 150 transfers in as well.
Quote from: loschwitz on September 23, 2019, 04:28:38 PM
Should Valparaiso simply follow that Baylor statement? Maybe it would be better to work with Valpo's "In luce tua, videmus lucem." Something along these lines:
The motto of our university is "In thy Light, we see light." By this statement we affirm that Jesus Christ is the Light of the world, the light no darkness can overcome. Christ is a light to our feet and a lamp to our path. He bids us follow Him in confident faith and in service to others.
No. Valpo should definitely NOT use any statement like the one used at Baylor.
Quote from: vu72 on September 25, 2019, 01:43:52 PM
Quote from: valpo95 on September 25, 2019, 12:32:07 PM
The total enrollment numbers are down quite a bit as far as I can tell. In terms of undergraduates (no grad / law), the numbers are as follows (for the Fall of each year)
2019 3011
2018 3220
2017 3255
2016 3299
For reference, the total students (including graduate students) is 3521 in 2019.
As far as I can tell, the number of incoming freshman (Fall 2019) is 587. This is below the number of 748 for Fall of 2018.
There were about 150 transfers in as well.
What were the transfers, and thus the total incoming students, for Fall 2018? You need those to make an accurate comparison - though this looks like a significant (and very concerning) drop.
I thought it was interesting that I recently heard a radio commercial for Valpo on 670/The Score in Chicago. They are the big sports radio station in the Chicago market. It would seem that we are getting more aggressive in recruiting prospective students, which is good. It seems like every other private school in the mid-west has stepped up their recruiting approach also.
Quote from: valpo64 on September 25, 2019, 02:18:14 PM
I thought it was interesting that I recently heard a radio commercial for Valpo on 670/The Score in Chicago. They are the big sports radio station in the Chicago market. It would seem that we are getting more aggressive in recruiting prospective students, which is good. It seems like every other private school in the mid-west has stepped up their recruiting approach also.
I think it is clear that the Administration had seen enough and got rid of the VP of Admissions--That is my guess, not based on anything other than that--but in any event, he is gone. Valpo has replaced him with a guy with a terrific track record, most recently coming from Texas Christian. I'm going to look him up at Homecoming.
https://www.valpo.edu/president/leadership/presidents-council/raymond-a-brown/
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 25, 2019, 01:47:11 PM
Quote from: vu72 on September 25, 2019, 01:43:52 PM
There were about 150 transfers in as well.
What were the transfers, and thus the total incoming students, for Fall 2018? You need those to make an accurate comparison - though this looks like a significant (and very concerning) drop.
I don't have all of the comparative numbers right at hand (for total incoming students including transfers). That said, as far as I can tell, the undergraduate headcount by year is an apples to apples comparison, net of all transfers in and transfers out. Similarly, the 2019 freshman number is directly comparable to the 2018 freshman number.
We are definitely down, although we were at record sizes a few years prior. So the issue is, was that a peak and an abnormality and this is really what our normal should be or are we flailing.
I have heard that the new guy is way more aggressive in admissions. That we are paying for more names and that they are tripling the number of high school visits. Apparently we have not been quite as aggressive as is standard and it looks like that has bit us in the proverbial butt. Hopefully we see a change now that we have a full year of the new VPs leadership.
One other piece that I did hear was that retention was up both from last year and above our 4 year average so that could be the marker of another positive change if it continues.
Wow. Ray Brown does seem to have exceptional credentials from TCU and Marquette. Good hire.
Let's hope he solves the problem before it keeps snowballing.
Quote from: crusadermoe on September 26, 2019, 03:03:07 PM
Wow. Ray Brown does seem to have exceptional credentials from TCU and Marquette. Good hire.
Let's hope he solves the problem before it keeps snowballing.
And he is actually a Lutheran. The first at this position in many years. Might help with attracting Lutheran kids as well.
The legendary Dan McNeil of WSCR is a Valpo fan.
Given Ray Brown's resume and being Lutheran, I would guess he is viewing Valpo as his last rodeo and no longer needing to prove much in his career after what he did at Marquette and TCU. This is a fortunate situation for Valpo.
Obviously the hoice of a new President is critical for the long-term. But I do concede that, in the next 1-4 year window, recruiting is probably more a result of the nuts and bolts of strong prospecting strategy and strong execution of the sales process.
But over the long term donations could be affected if the new President is another hyper--academic/green new deal/business-hating lefty. We probably need a businessman with a better handle on the economic and political realities found in our midwestern alumni. These big groups of alumni went to school i the conservative and careerist business student era of the late 70s and the 80s. Butler hired one. I haven't looked hard yet at the results they got from that hire.
I've spent a lot of time checking out websites of colleges and universities of all shapes and sizes. Believe me, VU's Lutheran and overall faith commitments are definitely evident. There's nothing hidden about that messaging.
I do believe that if you mention Jesus Christ and cite Bible verses on your home page, then you will ping out msgs to those who come from different faith traditions (including, quite possibly, Christians of other denominations) that they aren't necessarily welcomed here. It may even scare off some kids who would be very much at home at Valpo.
I find it a little ironic, given the main purpose of this discussion board (VU sports), that some are pointing to Baylor as an exemplar of a university in the Christian tradition. Obviously those values haven't always ported over to their basketball and football programs, which ironically have given them a lot more national visibility than their academics or religious affiliation. (Unless I've been missing something, VU has -- without chest-thumping fanfare -- run a very ethical sports program.)
As a university, VU faces inherent challenges by trying to achieve a balancing act in many ways: Lutheran & Christian, while open to other faith traditions. Values, liberal arts, career preparation, and community service. Traditional and culturally conservative, without excluding cosmopolitan and liberal ideas. The excitement of DI sports without the ethical downsides. It makes for a harder marketing pitch, because we live in an era where msgs at the extreme carry the day all too often.
FWIW, the VU of my day (77-81) wasn't as balanced, and a lot of us who didn't fit into the mainstream felt excluded at times. That said, I got a lot out of my VU education, and I have returned to the fold as a grateful alum in terms of annual giving, etc. In fact, with the exception of higher tuition -- the scourge of higher education just about everywhere these days -- I'd be much more excited about attending the VU of today than the one I experienced back then.
Thanks David81 for your up beat comments about the VU of today. It is nice to hear something on the positive side which often is absent in comments made on this board, no matter what the topic.
Came across this hysterical article about the college decision process and what kids (and parents) go through. It also highlights the enrollment scandal presently in the news. Oh, and one more thing--it was written by a Valpo grad.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20191012/mark-woods-no-i-didnt-write-my-daughters-college-essay
Great hire, coming from TCU. Joining the Big 12 helped during his tenure, but TCU grew their enrollment by quite a bit over the last decade.
Quote from: vu72 on October 13, 2019, 09:26:51 AM
Came across this hysterical article about the college decision process and what kids (and parents) go through. It also highlights the enrollment scandal presently in the news. Oh, and one more thing--it was written by a Valpo grad.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20191012/mark-woods-no-i-didnt-write-my-daughters-college-essay
A great article! Many highlights, but one of the best is the third reason why he believes he ultimately chose Valpo: "when I visited, I went to a party and had a really good time."
Quote from: Valpofan2021 on December 30, 2019, 06:24:52 AMbut its recent follies in athletics, facilities projects, and endowment initiatives leave the university in a precarious position moving forward.
What??? ???
Say what?????
What 2021 quote "today" are the last two posters referencing? Was it taken down?
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 30, 2019, 03:41:18 PM
What 2021 quote "today" are the last two posters referencing? Was it taken down?
He cited the "follies" of facilities and endowment initiatives. I, for one, found that puzzling or at least uninformed. What facilities initiatives was he/she referencing? And the endowment in critical to the life of the university. These things certainly didn't put the university in a "precarious" position.
Well, this continues to be a weird year.
But end of August always brings to constants. The U.S. News rankings and the enrollment census. Let's hope for the best in both. Has anyone seen either recently?
Ok. I looked it up and the answer is pretty good in US News. We are now in National Universities, not regional, and ranked #153
Creighton is #104 in National rank and Drake is #130. Butler (#1) and Bradley stayed in the Regional category. Kind of a head scratcher, but oh well.
Ranking Valpo and Drake among the major state universities seems like an apple and an orange.
#153 among national universities is impressive. I believe that is a nice increase from the prior year's rankings.
My understanding is that the factor that defines national versus regional universities is the amount of programs that award PhDs. Still, it makes no sense to have Valpo and major state schools in the same rankings.
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 30, 2020, 09:20:46 PM
#153 among national universities is impressive. I believe that is a nice increase from the prior year's rankings.
My understanding is that the factor that defines national versus regional universities is the amount of programs that award PhDs. Still, it makes no sense to have Valpo and major state schools in the same rankings.
I'm pretty sure that is the same ranking as last year.
The 2021 rankings come out September 14.
It will be interesting to see any changes.
When you look at last year's rankings for the Missouri Valley Conference, they look like this:
National Universities:
Loyola #98 (tie)
Drake #126 (tie)
Valpo #148 (tie)
Illinois State #193 (tie)
Indiana State somewhere between #293-381
Missouri State somewhere between #293-381
Southern Illinois--unranked but considered a National University
Regional Universities Midwest:
Bradley #4
Evansville #6
Northern Iowa #18 (tie)
I noticed this a while back when professor Galloway published that "college survival list" report and someone linked it in one of the threads but I do not think this has been brought up or discussed here.
As of 2018 the NCES's IPEDS has the "Residence of first-time degree/certificate-seeking undergraduates: Fall 2018" at 1% foreign for 2018.
https://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/datacenter/institutionprofile.aspx?unitId=152600
So this mean that 1% of first year students in 2018 were foreign correct?
Considering how we have discussed the heavily resilience on foreign students in the past it would seem that the school has done alright in admissions considering that drop off.
Do we offer PhDs now?
Quote from: valpotx on September 01, 2020, 12:22:52 AM
Do we offer PhDs now?
Yes. There are two in Nursing. Dozens of other Masters programs in many fields.
The other question of the month is the enrollment census.
What is the final word on that?
Moody's and our VP seemed to be watching closely.
Crickets on new enrollment?
Near as I can tell, the following is for Fall 2020.
Undergrad Enrollment 2737 (was 3011 in Fall 2019)
Graduate Enrollment 399 (was 494 in Fall 2019)
Fall 2020 Freshman 589 (was 565 in Fall 2019) (apples to apples freshman status comparison)
Total Fall New First Time Students 790 (was 812 in Fall 2019) (this includes transfers, freshman and first-time students classified beyond freshman status due to completed credits; this also includes new part-time students, though only about 2% undergrads are part time)
What I take from this is that the first year class was pretty solid given the COVID-19 circumstance. There were probably some students that deferred, yet at least the numbers this year are on par with last year.
The decline in total enrollment is a bit hard to track, mostly because the fall 2019 freshman / new enrollments was unusually low (the new first time students in 2016, 2017 and 2018 were 1092, 1065 and 968). So, many of the students in the relatively larger 2016 enrollment class probably graduated in the spring of 2020, and the fall 2019 enrollments were low, which would lead to an enrollment decline even in the best case. Add to that some upper-class students likely decided to take some time off due to COVID-19, and the total enrollment numbers are down.
Quote from: valpo95 on September 23, 2020, 12:00:01 PM
Near as I can tell, the following is for Fall 2020.
Undergrad Enrollment 2737 (was 3011 in Fall 2019)
Graduate Enrollment 399 (was 494 in Fall 2019)
Fall 2020 Freshman 589 (was 565 in Fall 2019) (apples to apples freshman status comparison)
Total Fall New First Time Students 790 (was 812 in Fall 2019) (this includes transfers, freshman and first-time students classified beyond freshman status due to completed credits; this also includes new part-time students, though only about 2% undergrads are part time)
What I take from this is that the first year class was pretty solid given the COVID-19 circumstance. There were probably some students that deferred, yet at least the numbers this year are on par with last year.
The decline in total enrollment is a bit hard to track, mostly because the fall 2019 freshman / new enrollments was unusually low (the new first time students in 2016, 2017 and 2018 were 1092, 1065 and 968). So, many of the students in the relatively larger 2016 enrollment class probably graduated in the spring of 2020, and the fall 2019 enrollments were low, which would lead to an enrollment decline even in the best case. Add to that some upper-class students likely decided to take some time off due to COVID-19, and the total enrollment numbers are down.
Wouldn't the decline in graduate students be in part due to the closing of the law school?
Quote from: valpo95 on September 23, 2020, 12:00:01 PM
Near as I can tell, the following is for Fall 2020.
Undergrad Enrollment 2737 (was 3011 in Fall 2019)
Graduate Enrollment 399 (was 494 in Fall 2019)
Fall 2020 Freshman 589 (was 565 in Fall 2019) (apples to apples freshman status comparison)
Total Fall New First Time Students 790 (was 812 in Fall 2019) (this includes transfers, freshman and first-time students classified beyond freshman status due to completed credits; this also includes new part-time students, though only about 2% undergrads are part time)
What I take from this is that the first year class was pretty solid given the COVID-19 circumstance. There were probably some students that deferred, yet at least the numbers this year are on par with last year.
The decline in total enrollment is a bit hard to track, mostly because the fall 2019 freshman / new enrollments was unusually low (the new first time students in 2016, 2017 and 2018 were 1092, 1065 and 968). So, many of the students in the relatively larger 2016 enrollment class probably graduated in the spring of 2020, and the fall 2019 enrollments were low, which would lead to an enrollment decline even in the best case. Add to that some upper-class students likely decided to take some time off due to COVID-19, and the total enrollment numbers are down.
I am not permitted to reveal exact numbers until publicly announced, but it is safe to say "the first year class was pretty solid given the COVID-19 circumstance."
If these numbers are true, these are good results given the challenges due to the COVID-19 pandemic.
Quote from: vu72 on September 23, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
Wouldn't the decline in graduate students be in part due to the closing of the law school?
According to the numbers I have, the total grad school decline was 95 from the fall of 2019 to the fall of 2020. 16 of the 95 were students in the law school. The big decline in law census occurred in the prior years.
Even in our tech age it appears to be harder and slower to count students......
Scroggins said. "We were seeing enrollment trends in terms of deposits in March, so pre-COVID, we're tracking 15% ahead of last year so we were very encouraged by that and then COVID hit and then we saw the numbers start to decline."
http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_deee3d10-01b5-11eb-9eb5-7b2e2d2fe7d3.html
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on September 29, 2020, 06:04:47 PM
Scroggins said. "We were seeing enrollment trends in terms of deposits in March, so pre-COVID, we're tracking 15% ahead of last year so we were very encouraged by that and then COVID hit and then we saw the numbers start to decline."
http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_deee3d10-01b5-11eb-9eb5-7b2e2d2fe7d3.html
Interesting article. My guess is that the faculty complaints are probably similar to the issues with employees at any large company. At a University, with so many departments, it becomes so much more diverse versus an ordinary company. I have zero idea what the issues are or if they have credence, but the article said that 99 faculty signed the letter. My guess is that is about 25% of the total.
I don't to divert into sports on this VU GENERAL DISCUSSION thread. So let's keep it TIGHTLY in the realm of dicey expenses to the overall VU budget, not vague thoughts about marketing appeal.
It's hard to imagine that a high travel and low revenue sport like baseball will remain in its current long season/high travel cost form with trips and flights to southern states. If retained, it would be logical to play our games in driving distance. But then the climate is an obstacle.
COVID is a perfect excuse to try my idea of playing only a full MVC baseball season. Play it n a St. Louis bubble(one hotel) at SLU's home field over one or two weekends sure makes sense. Playing doubleheaders could give you an 8 game four day trip twice and yield a 16-game season.
Quote from: crusadermoe on September 30, 2020, 09:39:16 AM
I don't to divert into sports on this VU GENERAL DISCUSSION thread. So let's keep it TIGHTLY in the realm of dicey expenses to the overall VU budget, not vague thoughts about marketing appeal.
It's hard to imagine that a high travel and low revenue sport like baseball will remain in its current long season/high travel cost form with trips and flights to southern states. If retained, it would be logical to play our games in driving distance. But then the climate is an obstacle.
COVID is a perfect excuse to try my idea of playing only a full MVC baseball season. Play it n a St. Louis bubble(one hotel) at SLU's home field over one or two weekends sure makes sense. Playing doubleheaders could give you an 8 game four day trip twice and yield a 16-game season.
I'm pretty sure Busch Stadium is available and might be more fun for the teams. The MVC already uses the Cardinal owned Ballpark Village across the street from the stadium for Arch Madness. SLU's field, at Billiken's Sports Center is just slightly better than Em Bauer Field.
(https://slubillikens.com/images/2016/4/7/RRFQXWCENMYQSNF.20160407170540.JPG)
GCS Credit Union, home field of the Gateway Grizzlies, in Sauget (SAW-jhay) IL, right across the river in the flood plain of the Mississippi River would probably be the appropriate field to use for a college tournament.
https://websterathletics.com/sports/2007/12/5/Baseball%20Facilities.aspx?id=7
Quote from: vu72 on September 30, 2020, 09:10:44 AM
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on September 29, 2020, 06:04:47 PM
Scroggins said. "We were seeing enrollment trends in terms of deposits in March, so pre-COVID, we're tracking 15% ahead of last year so we were very encouraged by that and then COVID hit and then we saw the numbers start to decline."
http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_deee3d10-01b5-11eb-9eb5-7b2e2d2fe7d3.html
Interesting article. My guess is that the faculty complaints are probably similar to the issues with employees at any large company. At a University, with so many departments, it becomes so much more diverse versus an ordinary company. I have zero idea what the issues are or if they have credence, but the article said that 99 faculty signed the letter. My guess is that is about 25% of the total.
Wisely, IMO, Valpo has recognized that, while its current business model has served it well for many decades, it is not sustainable going forward. Accordingly, the university leadership team is making a major paradigm shift, i.e., elevating STEM and establishing a major presence in the on-line market. Any time a business reorganizes, there are winners and losers. Good people get downsized like cargo tossed overboard in an attempt to save a sinking ship. The least valuable cargo goes first.
The time is long past to seek the thoughts of self-serving instructors with an axe to grind about past Board performance and who typically know little to nothing about strategic business planning at the survival level. Anytime you work for someone else, they do in fact hold your future in their hands. That's life. The alternative is to run your own business, which believe me is no walk in the park.
Downsizing is nasty business, but a necessary evil in situations like Valpo finds itself in. The only thing crueler than cutting pay, benefits, and people, is not having the courage to cut pay, benefits and people - until it's too late.
Quote from: crusadermoe on September 30, 2020, 09:39:16 AM
I don't to divert into sports on this VU GENERAL DISCUSSION thread. So let's keep it TIGHTLY in the realm of dicey expenses to the overall VU budget, not vague thoughts about marketing appeal.
It's hard to imagine that a high travel and low revenue sport like baseball will remain in its current long season/high travel cost form with trips and flights to southern states. If retained, it would be logical to play our games in driving distance. But then the climate is an obstacle.
COVID is a perfect excuse to try my idea of playing only a full MVC baseball season. Play it n a St. Louis bubble(one hotel) at SLU's home field over one or two weekends sure makes sense. Playing doubleheaders could give you an 8 game four day trip twice and yield a 16-game season.
Baseball will not be eliminated. Just this last week, we/baseball alums received an email from MLB tied to the $800k in renovations/upgrades being done to Em Bauer Field, and soliciting donations. We would not be undertaking this effort, if plans had changed to eliminate baseball in the next few years. Again, it is also a core MVC sport, along with Basketball & Volleyball.
Quote from: valpopal on September 23, 2020, 12:54:42 PM
Quote from: valpo95 on September 23, 2020, 12:00:01 PM
Near as I can tell, the following is for Fall 2020.
Undergrad Enrollment 2737 (was 3011 in Fall 2019)
Graduate Enrollment 399 (was 494 in Fall 2019)
Fall 2020 Freshman 589 (was 565 in Fall 2019) (apples to apples freshman status comparison)
Total Fall New First Time Students 790 (was 812 in Fall 2019) (this includes transfers, freshman and first-time students classified beyond freshman status due to completed credits; this also includes new part-time students, though only about 2% undergrads are part time)
What I take from this is that the first year class was pretty solid given the COVID-19 circumstance. There were probably some students that deferred, yet at least the numbers this year are on par with last year.
The decline in total enrollment is a bit hard to track, mostly because the fall 2019 freshman / new enrollments was unusually low (the new first time students in 2016, 2017 and 2018 were 1092, 1065 and 968). So, many of the students in the relatively larger 2016 enrollment class probably graduated in the spring of 2020, and the fall 2019 enrollments were low, which would lead to an enrollment decline even in the best case. Add to that some upper-class students likely decided to take some time off due to COVID-19, and the total enrollment numbers are down.
I am not permitted to reveal exact numbers until publicly announced, but it is safe to say "the first year class was pretty solid given the COVID-19 circumstance."
Since our interim-president publicly released some of the numbers this week, I can now repeat them here. Undergraduate level: 637 first-year students for fall 2020, lowered from 649 in 2019, which already was a down year. The decline is because of difficulty in travel for international undergraduate students, while the number of domestic first-year undergraduate students is actually up a bit. Declines due to the absence of law students and a decrease in international graduate students brings total enrollment to about 3,100 students. She did not publicly state the "total fall new first-time students," but the number quoted above can be considered close. Unfortunately, before the virus hit in March, enrollment looked to be up significantly. By June the numbers appeared dismal. But thankfully there was a rebound during the summer.
I really hope everything will be okay and I am thankful to hear this news. I'd really love to see another deep tournament run to help stoke interest in the school again. Hopefully we have one coming soon. Our roster really does seem to be getting better compared to our first few years in the Valley (JFL's transfer not withstanding. I really think we've found several excellent recruits that will be contributors who can help us reach this goal.) GO VALPO! I BELIEVE!
My question regarding enrollment is if Valpo maintained their standard or eased off. Many private colleges, including Drake, have eased admission standard to keep enrollment.
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 04, 2020, 09:43:05 AM
My question regarding enrollment is if Valpo maintained their standard or eased off. Many private colleges, including Drake, have eased admission standard to keep enrollment.
I cannot share specific numbers, but as one way to measure this and offer assurance, it would be safe to assume that the percent of admitted students to applications received remained the same as last year.
Quote from: valpopal on October 04, 2020, 11:02:45 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 04, 2020, 09:43:05 AM
My question regarding enrollment is if Valpo maintained their standard or eased off. Many private colleges, including Drake, have eased admission standard to keep enrollment.
I cannot share specific numbers, but as one way to measure this and offer assurance, it would be safe to assume that the percent of admitted students to applications received remained the same as last year.
I'm sure new Valpo students are feeling the total commitment to their full potential.
I certainly don't have any inside knowledge, just what as been made public and in particular, from the athletics website. If this young man is any indication of the quality of Valpo students, then we are in great shape:
Mason Bonn, Men's Golf, from Sherwood, Oregon
Member of National Honor Society as a junior and senior... One of the Valedictorians for the Shorewood High School Class of 2020. Only missed one question on the SAT, scoring a 1590 :o
Here are my thoughts moving forward for next year on projected enrollment.
637 first-year students for fall 2020, down from 649 in 2019.
Most schools and other sources have deferments at between 10-15% for 2020 incoming classes. I will use the low end and say 10% deferred so 64 students. From the Scroggins comments a few weeks ago we know we were up 15% ahead of 2019 in early March so let's say, 97 students.
637 (2020's total) + 64 (deferred) + 97 (pre-COIVD increase number) = 798 Freshman
So 798 with an increase in selectivity.
Many of us were expecting this year, year two of Ray Brown at the helm of admissions to turn the tide, however, COVID happened and no one expected that. I am very certain that year three will have tremendous results for a few reasons. First, they will continue to build off what was done last year. Three years in allows for enough time to evaluate what has and hasn't worked in the new strategies that they have implemented since Brown's arrival double down on what has worked and stop what hasn't. I believe this is now the third year of the new enrollment management company (if past posters posts have been accurate) which usually doesn't pay big dividends until year 2-3.
Thoughts?
Valpo is targeting 750 new students for next year. They are nowhere close to that number yet so Ray Brown, VP for enrollment has been terminated. With a new hire scheduled by Summer, let's hope the next person steps up. President Padilla is doing what a new leader should do-taking charge.
This is a little shocking on both fronts. However, it has been well documented that most schools admissions are all over the place this year. Applications were up 15% like two weeks ago this time last year prior to covid. So really wonder what has changed.
I hope there was/ is someone in mind already if Brown was indeed terminated isn't something we should be having a search for.
Quote from: valpo tundra on March 20, 2021, 05:09:12 PM
Valpo is targeting 750 new students for next year. They are nowhere close to that number yet so Ray Brown, VP for enrollment has been terminated. With a new hire scheduled by Summer, let's hope the next person steps up. President Padilla is doing what a new leader should do-taking charge.
Two comments:
1. Given that this is so early in President Padilla's tenure, I wonder if this was a mandate from the board of trustees.
2. Measuring enrollment for a forthcoming school year has a variety of milestones, including down payments and full payments. It would be interesting to see where they are falling short.
I am also not aware of Valpo committing that the Fall semester will be fully in-person. While actually being able to do so depends on factors external to the university, I would recommend making that public statement as soon as possible. Expecting incoming students to pay the premium to go to Valpo, with a perception that many classes will be remote, is likely to end up in very low enrollment of new students.
I read recently that many top schools are experiencing a huge increase in applications, as kids are 'shooting their shot' at the Ivys, with the ACT/SAT requirements going away.
I had written to President Padilla and he recently answered my email. I think it appropriate to share a few of his thoughts.
First, he addressed the basketball situation as follows:
"We have to be bold and lean into these challenges. Part of that is capitalizing on our strengths, which include our strong national brand in basketball. But as you know, we haven't lived up recently to the legacy of Homer and Bryce Drew. We're going to have to get much better in that area".
Then in the enrollment area:
" Our admissions numbers were unacceptably low. I'm a strong believer in holding people accountable. We're in the final stages of selecting a permanent replacement for Ray. (Who really was a third party contractor.) We're close to selecting a new VP for Enrollment Management, Marketing and Communications. We have four finalists who come from similarly situated schools".
Once you get outside of the charmed circle of elite universities, many institutions of long standing and solid repute (like VU) are struggling to maintain enrollments of traditional college-age individuals. This is not to excuse inadequate administrative performance in terms of enrollment management, but rather to acknowledge that we're likely to see some shakeout of the higher ed market. FWIW, I think VU is of sufficient distinction and quality to be among those left standing, but it won't be easy.
I don't think Valpo has much of an admission standard with an 85% acceptance rate. The problem with Valpo's finances lies in that the school offers deep discounts to students with high GPAs and standardized test scores. As the school relies on tuition revenue, this practice is unsustainable in the long run. Valpo should think out of the box, and offer more D1 sports instead of less. Cutting athletic programs creates so much bad press for the school. Why not add D1 sports in an effort to bring in students? How is it possible that most Patriot League institutions with less students offer 25+ D1 varsity sports including scholarship football, while Valpo offers minimum athletics in comparison? Bring back men's soccer and tennis, add lacrosse and field hockey as well. You will attract better quality students for admissions, and raise the profile of the school at the same time. There are so many top academic institutions across the country that have followed this model. Valpo needs to stop looking at MVC schools for direction and embrace what institutions on the West Coast and East Coast have done in order to stay "financially stable" during these trying times. The Valpo athletic department needs to give up on tying all of its assets into men's basketball, and increase the number of student-athletes at the school. The school needs athletic department leadership from a higher academic tier in order to gain a better perspective as to how athletic programs in 2021 can lead to higher student enrollment and higher selectivity rates which influence national rankings. With all of this said, I appreciate everyone's efforts in keeping Valpo afloat during these trying times. Let's think outside of the box in order to keep Valpo safe for decades to come!
Quote from: VUFan2021 on April 02, 2021, 10:08:47 AM
... Valpo should think out of the box, and offer more D1 sports instead of less. Cutting athletic programs creates so much bad press for the school. Why not add D1 sports in an effort to bring in students? How is it possible that most Patriot League institutions with less students offer 25+ D1 varsity sports including scholarship football, while Valpo offers minimum athletics in comparison? Bring back men's soccer and tennis, add lacrosse and field hockey as well...
Valpo has some things in common academically with schools in the Patriot League - these are very good academic schools and several have excellent undergraduate engineering programs for example. The MVC and Patriot League also have some parallels in terms of the level of competition and national exposure for example.
Yet to answer the question as to why the Patriot League members sponsor so many more sports, the answer is in the endowments. Here are the endowments of the full member schools (excluding Army and Navy).
American $708M
Boston U $2.2B
Bucknell $801M
Colgate $908M
Holy Cross $1B
Lafayette $694M
Lehigh $1.4B
Loyola Md $206M
Valpo has an endowment of approximately $254M and sponsors 17 men's and women's sports. As near as I can tell, Loyola sponsors 18 sports.
I'm confident that if someone showed up with a check for say $10M conditional on Valpo bringing back one more sport, that would get a positive reception. However, as Valpo has a much more limited endowment so has to prioritize.
Well I'm glad Padilla sees the marketing power of basketball. It's too bad that wasn't seen 22 years ago. We got so wound up about basketball in 1998 that we went out and built a library. If you read the Valpo magazine over the next five years afterward you would think that people across the country were abuzz first and foremost about the choir, Christ College and our graduate fellowships.
It's quite possible that the hoops investment strategy might not have jolted us upward in admissions. But watching Gonzaga thrive does inflict some 20/20 hindsight on us. The real story as other 20 year vets of the board know is that the Horizon League wanted Valpo as early as 2000 but a father-son combo slowed that down into 2005 and that window of opportunity was long gone during the time when we kept flying to Utah and Louisiana for obscure conference games. The Bryce team that went to the NIT in 2015 raised up a lot of student and local enthusiasm and deservedly so. But the national buzz of 1998 among the general public and student prospects had long faded.
It has been floated on the board many times, that Valpo should focus on being even MORE Lutheran. I have always countered that the younger generations are not as religious as prior generations, myself included. If we want to be a more religious institution, there is the potential that we push away more potential students, if you don't make more secular folks feel welcome. For the first time since reporting/tracking began (84 years ago), this Gallup poll says that folks tied to a church, synagogue, or mosque, are no longer the majority in the US:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx
Looks like President Padilla is a no-nonsense guy who is moving quickly. Just hired a new Enrollment VP.
https://www.valpo.edu/news/?type=post&site=239&id=12323
I've heard from a few people on campus that he is very no-nonsense, clearly sees himself as hired to work to improve enrollment and financials, and that he has low tolerance for those you he deems not taking the issue seriously or just not providing the leadership he thinks the moment demands. Might be a rude awakening from some in the upper admin level but I feel like you need decisive leadership now if you really want to appreciate the impact of all the recent endowment money raised when it all finally starts to come in.
Valpo has always had a bit of it's own 'high on it's own supply" mentality where we feel the real world doesn't matter or that we will be able to do it "our" way and succeed. It's led to not just not updating our athletics but also not updating other areas of infrastructure in how they run things. They got the memo about the buildings needing to be better but it sounds like there were other areas that just weren't being built up to keep us running smoothly
The new VP sounds impressive. That's a wide span of responsibilities but they do all interrelate.
When you pool leadership areas you can get better talent offering higher pay. Might be the case here. Let's hope.
Can anyone shed more light on this hire?
On paper it is pretty perplexing. No ties to Midwest and education and work experience are west coast specifically isolated to LA. Can't find anything that makes him stand out professionally MSMLA U is not a great school with admissions and Retainment below us (maybe he's led solid improvement there? Can't find anything). Comes from Catholic not Lutheran school (I personally don't care) but think recruiting might be a little different in that regard. Little to no write ups/ news releases/ bios on him.
If he's our guy he's our guy. I hope he crushes it!
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on April 14, 2021, 11:23:10 AM
Can anyone shed more light on this hire?
On paper it is pretty perplexing. No ties to Midwest and education and work experience are west coast specifically isolated to LA. Can't find anything that makes him stand out professionally MSMLA U is not a great school with admissions and Retainment below us (maybe he's led solid improvement there? Can't find anything). Comes from Catholic not Lutheran school (I personally don't care) but think recruiting might be a little different in that regard. Little to no write ups/ news releases/ bios on him.
If he's our guy he's our guy. I hope he crushes it!
I was in communication with President Padilla on this subject and he told me that the previous guy just wasn't cutting it and that they had four very solid candidates from which to choose going forward. Apparently this is the guy chosen from the four. As for recruiting Lutherans, that is also a subject that was brought up to our President and he assured me that this would be part of the new effort going forward.
Quote from: vu72 on April 14, 2021, 01:03:11 PM
I was in communication with President Padilla on this subject and he told me that the previous guy just wasn't cutting it and that they had four very solid candidates from which to choose going forward. Apparently this is the guy chosen from the four. As for recruiting Lutherans, that is also a subject that was brought up to our President and he assured me that this would be part of the new effort going forward.
vu72, I appreciate your active engagement in the process.
At this point, I'm more on the "show me" side of things. The previous VP (Ray Brown) joined Valpo in August 2018. He also apparently retired from TCU before taking the Valpo job. Thus, none of us should be surprised that Mr. Brown might be looking to wrap up his career. Yet given the cycle of recruiting, Brown had one partial year of recruiting freshmen entering in 2019, and then the COVID-19 entering class of 2020. Given the COVID challenges, I thought the size of the freshman 2020 class (close to flat compared with 2019) was pretty solid.
Quote from: vu72 on January 09, 2019, 03:28:00 PMRay Brown, M.A., joined Valparaiso University as interim vice president for enrollment management on Aug. 6, 2018. As the chief enrollment officer, Vice President Brown leads the development and oversees the execution of the University's comprehensive enrollment management plan, under the leadership of Senior Vice President Susan Scroggins, CPA, '04 MBA, and the executive management team.
Vice President Brown has extensive experience in higher education, most recently serving for 16 years as the dean of admission at Texas Christian University (TCU) in Fort Worth, Texas, where he led the team that yielded 1,900 first-year students and 400 transfer students. Under Vice President Brown's tenure at TCU, the university increased selectivity and increased applications significantly. At the end of Vice President Brown's tenure he became the first non-faculty member to become designated emeritus.
Previously, Vice President Brown served as the dean of undergraduate admissions at Marquette University in Milwaukee, and as the associate dean of students and director of admission and financial aid at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, among other universities.
Education
A.M. — University of Michigan
B.A. — Concordia University
The prior VP (Michael Joseph) joined Valpo in October 2011, and also had impressive credentials https://www.valpo.edu/news/2011/09/26/vice-president-for-enrollment-management-appointed/ (https://www.valpo.edu/news/2011/09/26/vice-president-for-enrollment-management-appointed/). Unfortunately, Mr. Joseph was spectacularly unsuccessful in his position, as the enrollment declined during his watch.
In any case, I'm hoping Mr. O'Rourke is successful.
Yet at this point, with two prior hires over the last decade with "outstanding record(s) of achievement", show me the results! Increase enrollment, and increase the quality!
That's a good point. If people are successful elsewhere but not at Valpo, you also have to wonder how well they are equipped with a product and pricing that sells.
The product is a great education but it appears to happen in a very boring campus and town setting vs. urban settings like Butler and Loyola, and even Des Moines. We certainly watched an electric campus atmosphere in the ARC (not) over the last 3 years prior to COVID. What else generates excitement in Valpo?
Financial aid is brutally competitive among private schools (well before COIVID) and each has to figure out their discount rates and how much discounting imperils the school. Yes, they've raised a big sounding endowment number. But how fast is that money flowing in and how much impact does it have when you can only spend it at 5%? The school ran an 11% operating deficit in the last full year before COVID struck.
I know we've explored these topics many times and we all perceive it differently. That whole financial trap just came to mind again after being reminded that admission hires with good resumes seem to come to Valpo to die.
Quote from: valpotx on April 10, 2021, 02:52:56 PM
It has been floated on the board many times, that Valpo should focus on being even MORE Lutheran. I have always countered that the younger generations are not as religious as prior generations, myself included. If we want to be a more religious institution, there is the potential that we push away more potential students, if you don't make more secular folks feel welcome. For the first time since reporting/tracking began (84 years ago), this Gallup poll says that folks tied to a church, synagogue, or mosque, are no longer the majority in the US:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx
I understand the logic of what you are saying, but in some ways I have trouble reconciling some of the other ideas you have espoused in regards to the way the mascot issue was handled and some of the HR advise you have equated to the player transfer explosion. It seems to me that you value conviction and commitment, correct me if I am wrong. What I find most concerning about my alma mater is the lack of conviction to the values of the original Lutheran University Association organization formed by the lay people of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod which purchased the university in 1925. I know that things change, but I would much rather that Valpo model itself after a Hillsdale, Wheaton or Peperdine rather than becoming a 3,200 student IU. I believe we should be striving to live up to the words from O. P. Kretzman's inaugural address:
QuoteIt is this positive and aggressive approach to the problems of a changing world which enables us to face the future of this particular University with absolute confidence in its destiny. Only the school with a Christian orientation can today stand before the rising generation and say: We have something to offer you which you can find nowhere else. Others may try to make men scientific; we must do that-and make them wise. Others may give men knowledge; we must give them that-and understanding. Others may try to make men useful; we must do that-and we must make them noble. We are not asking you to come to an ivory tower to escape from the realities of life or to a market-place where the voices and minds of men are confused by the immediate and material things of life. We are able to give you the fellowship of men and women whose respect for Truth is not vitiated by doubts concerning its reality and permanence. We are able to offer you a school which recognizes the supreme dignity and worth of the individual human being. We are committed to the principle that the destiny of a Christian University lies in the quality of the men and women who are graduated from its halls rather than in quantitative production. Our future lies in the development of men and women, perhaps relatively few in number, whose quality will be so high that they will exert an influence on society which cannot be measured in terms of numbers.
I don't see a more secular Valpo being competitive in any way with the sea of big and small liberal secular universities. Do I want Valpo to remain Lutheran? Yes I do, or more accurately I want it to retain and maybe even double down on the values that helped make it unique among all of the many cookie cutter options in higher education. My wife is a college professor and we have been involved in education for many years in one way or another. We have supported racial diversity and equity in education of all sorts, but I would have been much happier had the university adopted the "Chicago Statement" (https://www.thefire.org/get-involved/student-network/take-action/adopting-the-chicago-statement/) rather than putting out the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Statement last week. I think that the MLK Day celebration is great, but I would love to see invitations to academics like Glenn Loury, John McWhorter or Coleman Hughes with more diverse thoughts on race and racial justice.
We got into trouble following trends, I think we need to buck the trend and actually stand for something.
After reading the discussion between valpotx and FWAlum (and prior similar discussions on this board), I ask the question, "why can't you be both?" In other words, for those who value a more intense Lutheran experience, have activities and organizations that meet that interest. But for those who don't, welcome them and their diverse opinions as well. This, in fact, is the nature of the "Chicago Statement." You mention Hillsdale, Wheaton and Pepperdine. Hillsdale and Wheaton clearly are focused around people who share their ideology and do not welcome people who have alternative views. Any direction towards that at Valpo and I am out (and my guess is that a meaningful number of other donors are out too). Pepperdine, I believe, is more oriented towards the model that is better for Valpo - in which there is an environment that appeals to those interested in Churches of Christ and an environment for those who prefer a more secular environment (of course, being on a cliff overlooking the Pacific Ocean gives a university a distinct advantage regardless of personal beliefs).
FWAlum, you've covered a lot in your post.
The Chicago Statement is an excellent place to start - a commitment to free and open inquiry is the cornerstone of a university. Valpo should affirm the Chicago statement, just like 100+ universities have done.
We also should also not forget that President Heckler was (at least to my knowledge) the first non-LCMS ordained minister become President, starting in 2008. From 2009 to 2019, the percentage of LCMS undergrads declined by 50%. Beyond this, prior administrations were careful to affirm (or at least avoid antagonizing) the relationship with the LCMS. For example, William Karpenko had been hired to be the Director of Church Relations yet retired (I think) around the time President Harre did. Karpenko had deep ties to the LCMS, having been director of the DCE program at Concordia Seward. So, Karpenko knew hundreds of DCEs and teachers at Lutheran schools. Those kinds of ties are hard to replicate.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 14, 2019, 08:36:59 PM
Vu84v2 - Baylor is about 30 percent Baptist. 38 percent of the student body are minorities.
Looks like Baptist's are the real minority.
Since you are looking back in posts, let me also bring forward my previous quote on Baylor's stated Christian commitment.
--------------------------------
Baylor continues to hold firm to the conviction that the world needs a preeminent research university that is unambiguously Christian, where such a commitment does not imply a lack of scholarly inquiry, but rather requires scholarship and creative endeavors at the highest levels of quality to complement and inform its teaching and service.
--------------------------------
The active words are: unambiguously, complement, and inform. How do these words apply to the environment at the university? Are there rules within the university that restrict behavior, lifestyles, opinions, etc.? Maybe there aren't any specific or strongly implied restrictions at Baylor (I don't know), but the word unambiguously is pretty clear that the university is more narrow-minded on what is accepted faith. There are definitely restrictions at Wheaton, BYU and Liberty, and I believe there are at Hillsdale (at minimum, there are strong expectations). On the other hand, you could make a strong argument that the Catholic faith complements and informs teaching and service at the Jesuit universities - but there are no rules or expectations that you must follow the Catholic faith (or even a Christian faith). There are, however, strong faith-based communities (church, organizations, activities) for those who do follow the Catholic faith - which is great. That is the model that is (and should be) applied at Valpo.
As a side note, I wholeheartedly agree with the "Chicago Statement", and would support Valpo adopting it. However, in looking at the list of schools (per University of Chicago's website) that have adopted this statement, there are strikingly few religiously-affiliated universities in the list (SMU is the only one that I see). My guess is that schools like Hillsdale or Wheaton are not willing to adopt 'free expression and inquiry' as stated in the Chicago Statement.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 16, 2021, 08:06:01 AMSMU is the only one that I see
An interesting discussion. Oh, SMU is about as much Methodist as Valpo. We need to keep focused on our Lutheran heritage which has evolved over the years. I was raised in the Missouri Synod but left years ago and now am a member of a ELCA church. This is the case with many people I know and why Valpo has pastors from both churches on staff.
Times have changed. The Lutheran High School feeder system has been seriously diminished. My Lutheran High School in the suburbs of Cleveland is now filled with non-Lutherans who want to attend there as a means of avoiding the public schools. My class of 75 sent 10 people to Valpo. So Valpo needs to continue to evolve, NOT abandon our heritage. As OP famously said, "Without the Cross Valpo is just another Princeton" and no, for those reading this, he wasn't saying Valpo was as good as Princeton or any such thing. He was saying that without the church we are just like thousands of other institutions trying to educate students, nothing more.
Jose Padilla understands this. With reduced numbers of Lutherans nationally and with reduced population in the Midwest in general, it requires a national recruiting effort. Challenging to be sure.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 15, 2021, 04:19:51 PM
After reading the discussion between valpotx and FWAlum (and prior similar discussions on this board), I ask the question, "why can't you be both?" In other words, for those who value a more intense Lutheran experience, have activities and organizations that meet that interest. But for those who don't, welcome them and their diverse opinions as well. This, in fact, is the nature of the "Chicago Statement." You mention Hillsdale, Wheaton and Pepperdine. Hillsdale and Wheaton clearly are focused around people who share their ideology and do not welcome people who have alternative views. Any direction towards that at Valpo and I am out (and my guess is that a meaningful number of other donors are out too). Pepperdine, I believe, is more oriented towards the model that is better for Valpo - in which there is an environment that appeals to those interested in Churches of Christ and an environment for those who prefer a more secular environment (of course, being on a cliff overlooking the Pacific Ocean gives a university a distinct advantage regardless of personal beliefs).
I agree with much of what you have said and I believe that for a long time Valpo was a place where it was an individual's decision as to how much of a Lutheran experience they wanted to have. I think the Lutheran identity of the school was much more obvious then than it is today. I only mentioned those 3 schools because I think it is clear who and what they are and if you are a student seeking those things then you want to go there. I say this from experience with family members who have gone to both schools. Wheaton is much more restrictive and still requires that you sign the Wheaton Covenant and while Hillsdale is very conservative I think your perception of the school is tinged with some media bias. Even though both schools are smaller than Valpo, their published endowments are twice the size of Valpo's published endowment. Does this indicate a lack of commitment or pride in the university? When I was on the Alumni Board we often talked about how we needed to give the alumni something in order to get something back in the form of donations. Is the university doing that for alumni today? I don't know the answers to the many questions we all have about the school, its current religious affiliation, athletics, academic direction/reputation, etc. and therefore a lack of identity that in my opinion has been muddled by many of the recent decisions and statements made on behalf of the students and alumni. My heart still bleeds brown and gold, that is not likely to change because of my memories of my unique Valpo experience, but it pains me to see the clear focus of the past become muted today.
I welcome other thoughts, opinions and criticisms, I promise my feelings won't be hurt. :)
I think I am resistant to the idea that Valpo doesn't have a clear identity as a religious institution. There are multiple services throughout the week that are popular with students. The institute for Leadership and Service has a thriving CAPS fellowship program and the SALT student group is one of the most active and engaged on campus. There is a Peer Minister program with students embedded in the residential halls to aide students who are struggling spiritually and the Pathways to Purpose Speaker System has brought in many different theologians and has helped guide some discussions that are very heated today by bringing in well-regarded but educationally based speakers. If anything, the variety of religions on campus has led to even more of a religious presence with there not being a group for Orthodox Christians, multiple Bible Studies and a large contingent of other faith based organizations as well as the Lutheran Deaconess Program that students engage in constantly.
I think that the type of religious experience many students are looking for nowadays is varied and more personal than it is dogmatic which can look different. I remember my time there was spent with lots of rigid conversations (I was told I was going to hell multiple times by many people because I didn't follow the Lutheran Dogma even though I was Christian) that often made me feel turned off by religion. The Chapel is still a large part of events such as MLK, Orientation, etc.
That being said I think sometimes these arguments are shaded by "I think this university should be more clearly conservative" and then tries to tie that to no longer being religious but I think those are two separate conversations. I'd say that clearly the campus has turned from a more rigid dogma which has lead to greater acceptance of different identities and support for other causes amongst the student body BUT that doesn't mean they no longer have a strong religious identity it's just that identity looks different and you view that as not being "unique". However, I think we have reached a point where you cannot be a "conservative" religious institute without placing the types of restrictions that other schools such as Wheaton have placed and that is clearly not an institution Valpo has ever been or really ever wanted to be.
You have to admit that OPK inspires you to stand up for something. In bowling it is really hard to convert the 7-10 split into a spare. You usually miss both pins when you try to finesse it too much. Not that I would know.
Even if you do prefer a nebulous liberal mission with its typical 80% liberal faculty, it would be hard not to admire the boldness and the eloquence of OPK.
vu84v2- There may be restrictions for Liberty but these only apply to the students. The university president may operate with no restrictions and with impunity. Except when the school's PR firm finally says to pull the plug.
President Padilla announced yesterday that the spring graduation would be in-person with each graduate allowed to invite two guests. I also spoke with an admissions official yesterday. Combined with the increasing optimism of a more normal fall semester due to vaccines and projected decline of Covid-19, as well as a more active recruitment season than last year when campus visits were halted, I expect at least a modest bounce back in enrollment numbers in the fall. A reduction in national unemployment numbers might contribute as well. The next two weeks could be crucial since many high school seniors usually prefer to arrive at a college decision by May 1; however, I anticipate more will be making late choices as they wait to see whether conditions do improve significantly.
Quote from: valpo tundra on April 18, 2021, 11:10:40 PM
vu84v2- There may be restrictions for Liberty but these only apply to the students. The university president may operate with no restrictions and with impunity. Except when the school's PR firm finally says to pull the plug.
I have no knowledge on restrictions of faculty and employees at Liberty (whereas they certainly exist at Wheaton). However, your point that the adage "absolute power corrupts absolutely" applies for senior administration at Liberty (and we could add Oral Roberts) is quite valid.
Delay and confusion (such as CoVID) are allies in poor performance rationale. Let's hope that doesn't prove true for fall enrollment.
I got a very disappointing report today from Concordia Lutheran High School here in Fort Wayne. The report lists the students graduating in the class of 2021, the activities they were involved in at CLHS and their future plans for college and or employment. Of the 131 students that listed their future educational plans 0 indicated that they planned on attending Valparaiso University, 18 planned on attending one of the Concordia system schools, 2 chose Wartburg College and 2 chose Butler. This would have been unconscionable when I graduated from CLHS. Valpo was probably the 4th or 5th most popular college destination at that time behind IU, Purdue, the Concordia's and maybe IPFW. Many of my close friends and relatives attended Valpo. I repeat, 0 kids from a Lutheran High School where many of their forefathers actually were involved in purchasing Valparaiso University for the LUA. So when I tell you that Valpo does a lousy job of recruiting Lutheran high school students I think this sad fact proves my point.
I have maintained for YEARS that our enrollment strategy - if you can call it that - is seriously flawed. We ignore the very constituencies that should be our bread and butter. The results speak for themselves.
Paul
Should anyone expect otherwise in the aftermath of a postchristian professor group using a Muslim colleague as a prop to eliminate the Crusader?
Hopefully, the new Catholic president can fix the university's longstanding Lutheran problem.
Valparaiso University Names Next ELCA University Pastor
https://www.valpo.edu/news/2020/11/17/valparaiso-university-names-next-elca-university-pastor/
I thought this new hire sounded pretty impressive. It also left me with a positive feeling about the ELCA, about which I know very little. So, I decided to do a little research on the ELCA and came across the following article. I should have left well enough alone.
Liberal Lutherans Doubling Down
https://juicyecumenism.com/2018/07/29/liberal-lutherans-doubling-down/
FWalum and 78crusader, Have you thought about sharing you thoughts with the President of Valparaiso University? I have, in part on the same subject, and he responded. PLEASE, lets keep the heat on now that he has brought in his pick to run enrollment.
If there are things that can be learned about recruiting methods from universities like Concordia - great. And I agree with 78crusader that ignoring constituencies that could potentially be really good fits is likely not a good approach. But as I have stated before, Valparaiso should be welcoming to people of all faiths - while having very good religiously-oriented programs for those who desire that. Concordia is not welcoming of people from all faiths - they require all faculty and staff to be christian. If some potential students are looking for that sort of environment, they should not be going to Valparaiso and Valparaiso should not try to adjust their strategy to appease those students.
I find it hilarious that people on here jump to the conclusion that this is something wrong that Valparaiso has done. Could it be that high school kids just don't care as much about the Lutheran connection as they did 20-30 years ago? Instead of needing to pick a school that fosters a Lutheran connection and provides worship opportunities that students would've missed out on 20-30 years ago, maybe these students are now going to public schools and then watching their hometown church service on YouTube on Sundays instead. Maybe they Zoom with their hometown pastor and don't feel a need to gravitate toward a new religious community, instead choosing to go a different kind of school. Just my two cents.
Could the fact that many public universities now have a Lutheran chapel on or adjacent to campus also be a factor if religion is important to the student? However the fact remains that Valpo has done a lousy job of recruiting the Lutheran community. When I graduated from Concordia Lutheran H S in Fort Wayne, over 12 %(15) of our class of 117 attended VU. Another factor is the total lack of getting word out on Valpo in the Fort Wayne metro market. The University does a terrible job in the area as far as publicity goes, and that includes athletics pub. About all the comments on VU that I hear is that they can't afford it. That idea alone is not always true. When my grand daughter chose to attend IU(Bloomington) instead of Valpo it was because of course of study. However the cost was almost identical with the scholarship money
available from Valpo. And ANY dorm room at VU was better than what was available to frosh at IU.
Another factor is that when I attended VU there were many students, relatively speaking, from cities that had one or more Lutheran High Schools(not only FW, but also Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, Milwaukee and even the Los Angeles area).
It is also interesting that in years past when OPK was President, many hard line Lutherans thought OP was too liberal(remember the spat between VU and the LCMS?). I wonder what those people would think now with a devout Catholic as President. It almost seems funny just talking about it. ;D
I have to add the same stats from another Lutheran private HS in another midwest city. One of my brothers graduated from that Lutheran HS but did not go to Valpo. He said that quite recently in this decade 3-6 kids each year would go to Valpo. This year's senior class has 9 of the 110 are going to a Concordia and ZERO to Valpo. If kids don't want a Lutheran education then why did this happen at two schools we have cited.
There's a coach I can't recall who said, "We are what our record says we are." But I can't remember who it was? NFL? Does anyone know?
Quote from: Pgmado on May 13, 2021, 11:35:33 AM
I find it hilarious that people on here jump to the conclusion that this is something wrong that Valparaiso has done. Could it be that high school kids just don't care as much about the Lutheran connection as they did 20-30 years ago? Instead of needing to pick a school that fosters a Lutheran connection and provides worship opportunities that students would've missed out on 20-30 years ago, maybe these students are now going to public schools and then watching their hometown church service on YouTube on Sundays instead. Maybe they Zoom with their hometown pastor and don't feel a need to gravitate toward a new religious community, instead choosing to go a different kind of school. Just my two cents.
Exactly. To add to your point, and I know that I have brought this up previously, the youngest generations are not as religious as prior generations. If Valpo wants to tie itself to students that mainly have a religious connection to the school, the school will fold.
In the 70s and 80s I don't know whether the faith content was fully the draw to Valpo as much as a generational connection to parents and parents' friends. Even if a strong theology focus doesn't draw the kids, it would seem that students with some familial ties to a school would be stronger candidates than a random high school graduate.
But then again, churches are polarizing from each other as fast as the political parties are and maybe those church families are pulling apart from each other as well as within their own families. It might well be that the comfortable old "Lutheran" networks are dividing into two camps quickly. One camp may be seeking a high focus on their faith. Maybe the other camp of Lutheran families just prefers (like ValpoTX) to focus on education value vs. cost. In the latter camp, Valpo runs up hill in family cost.
Pgmado suggests that the Lutheran connection with VU is not the drawing card that it used to be in getting Concordia Lutheran/Fort Wayne students to come here.
I will acknowledge there's probably some truth to that.
But there is more than the Lutheran connection that makes the absence of any Concordia Lutheran graduating seniors coming to VU so worrisome.
Concordia Lutheran is a good high school. It is located only a couple of hours away from the VU campus. A lot of smart kids go there, kids from families who can afford - and who value - a private university education. And, of course, there is the historical Lutheran connection between VU, Fort Wayne, and Concordia Lutheran.
Given all of that, it would be very reasonable to expect VU to recruit Concordia Lutheran, recruit them hard, and wind up with at least a couple of kids from that high school each year. Maybe VU is already diligently pursuing Concordia kids. Recent evidence would suggest otherwise, however.
Perhaps other private schools are having the same problem. Perhaps Drake University is having trouble attracting kids from quality high schools close to Des Moines (where I live). The anecdotal reports I'm getting, however, suggest otherwise.
I think the recruiting strategy, if there is one, that VU has employed for many years is simply wrong and does not work. I am an outsider, but from where I sit VU has tried mighty hard to be all things to all people. This never works and we've been left with the predictable double whammy - declining enrollment and an alienation/distancing from our core constituencies.
It is my belief that VU has consistently underestimated the number of kids -- and parents -- that desire a more conservative, faith-based higher education experience. Many other private schools now have completely bought into the progressive/woke mindset that is a complete turn off to a vast number of Americans. (A friend of mine recently remarked these schools are doing a good job - not of promoting their progressive philosophies, but of promoting trade schools as a viable alternative to a college degree.)
To summarize: VU likes to tout that it is the premier Lutheran university but it seems like we have spent most of the last 10 years running away from this heritage. This completely mystifies me -- and others I've spoken with. VU has a unique position as a Lutheran/Christian school with excellent academic credentials. Let's promote it and build on it. Let's give folks a different option. If we don't, we wind up being perceived as another overpriced private school, many of which, unfortunately, are going to go down in the next 10 years. Let's not be one of them.
Paul
I have no idea what the demographics are at Fort Wayne Lutheran. I am a Lutheran High School product (Lutheran East Cleveland). While there are still, no doubt, Lutheran High Schools with conservative Lutheran educations, my guess is that many are being used as a way to get a quality education while avoiding the far less desirable public option. That is the case at my high school which could more likely be called "Baptist High School East". As with other posters in my day, of a class of 75, probably 10 went to Valpo. The whole Lutheran education pipeline, from grade schools to high schools is not anywhere near what it was in the 60's and 70's.
Having said that, there still are students at Valpo from Lutheran High Schools and I suggested to President Padilla that one admissions counselor be dedicated to recruiting just Lutheran High Schools. There are over 100 nationally with 9 in Illinois, 9 in Michigan, 10 in Minnesota and 20 in Wisconsin. Heck, there are even 9 in Texas!
This is NOT trying to exclude anybody. It is promoting Valpo's Lutheran identity to --LUTHERANS. The last thing we want or need is for the Chapel to become some sort of museum. Without our Lutheran/Christian identity we become just another Drake.
78crusader, you make some excellent points, namely trying to be everything to all people but losing or paying less attention to the core constituent. I also agree that our Lutheran High Schools and other private high schools are becoming havens for those families fed up with the public systems. The biggest factor here is the voucher programs that many states have adopted that have driven a number of students to private schools. Unfortunately many private schools would not exist today if not for those voucher programs.
Nevertheless, these circumstances do not excuse the poor job VU has done in recruiting students attending Lutheran high schools.
Running some quick numbers, by my count it looks like 118 of the class of 2021 Concordia Fort Wayne https://hubs.li/H0N595c0 (https://hubs.li/H0N595c0) are going to four-year college / universities. 39 of the 118 are going to private schools.
Of those 118, 33 are going to religiously-affiliated schools. Valpo is getting none of those students, with 15 selecting one of the Concordia system programs and 11 selecting the University of St. Francis (Fort Wayne).
35 students are going what I'll term nationally regarded universities, with 15 headed to IU-Bloomington and 14 to Purdue (Main Campus).
So, Valpo is getting neither the students who want a private, religiously-affiliated school, nor those who are looking for one of the top-quality nationally regarded schools. To my mind, I would find out how many of those 118 actually applied to Valpo.
Someone asked me when Valpo was searching for a President, what I wanted to see. I said three things.
1) Someone who understood that athletics was a front door to the school. Invest in Athletics and that will breed success in other areas.
2) Someone who understood that the Town and Gown relations need some work. Get out there and shake hands in the community.
3) Someone who understood the Lutheran/religious connection and how fertile a breeding ground that could be for enrollment.
Quote from: wh on May 13, 2021, 05:42:17 AM
Valparaiso University Names Next ELCA University Pastor
https://www.valpo.edu/news/2020/11/17/valparaiso-university-names-next-elca-university-pastor/
I thought this new hire sounded pretty impressive. It also left me with a positive feeling about the ELCA, about which I know very little. So, I decided to do a little research on the ELCA and came across the following article. I should have left well enough alone.
Liberal Lutherans Doubling Down
https://juicyecumenism.com/2018/07/29/liberal-lutherans-doubling-down/
ELCA, of the world and lukewarm.
Characteristics that should never and very likely will never be associated with Valparaiso University:
-A place where other denominations within the christian faith are derided as lukewarm.
-Faculty, students and others with the university referring to people whose religious convictions differ from their own as "postchristian".
-An environment only acceptable to those who demand a more conservative, faith-based experience and do not want those whose views differ from their own included in that environment.
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 13, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Characteristics that should never and very likely will never be associated with Valparaiso University:
-A place where other denominations within the christian faith are derided as lukewarm.
-Faculty, students and others with the university referring to people whose religious convictions differ from their own as "postchristian".
-An environment only acceptable to those who demand a more conservative, faith-based experience and do not want those whose views differ from their own included in that environment.
I'm trying to recall something you may or may not have mentioned a long time ago. Did you say you grew up in Ft. Wayne? Did you say you were raised Lutheran, maybe even attended a Lutheran school? And, did you also say you're now an Athiest?
-I did not grow up in Ft. Wayne.
-I was raised Lutheran.
-I never attended a Lutheran school prior to attending Valpo.
-I am christian (but am no longer Lutheran).
Has anyone spoke with anyone from admissions within the university to see if recruitment practice have really changed and if so why respective to Lutheran schools/ FW? I just can't imagine without very logical and or statistical reasoning we move away from or recruiting an area that seems to have been such a solid pipeline in the past. I vaguely remember a statement from Ray Brown about recruiting Lutheran high schools harder with an expanded foot print in states and areas that have larger Lutheran populations.
I really don't think we are losing cross admits to Concordia. Valpo and the Concordias are so different I think students choosing Concordia are looking for that kind of environment.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on May 15, 2021, 01:57:24 PM
Has anyone spoke with anyone from admissions within the university to see if recruitment practice have really changed and if so why respective to Lutheran schools/ FW? I just can't imagine without very logical and or statistical reasoning we move away from or recruiting an area that seems to have been such a solid pipeline in the past. I vaguely remember a statement from Ray Brown about recruiting Lutheran high schools harder with an expanded foot print in states and areas that have larger Lutheran populations.
I really don't think we are losing cross admits to Concordia. Valpo and the Concordias are so different I think students choosing Concordia are looking for that kind of environment.
As I've mentioned before, I would encourage all interested alumni to write to President Padilla and express your concern regarding recruiting Lutherans or otherwise. I have.
His email is: jose.padilla@valpo.edu He will respond.
2019
In a Diverse Society, Why Should Lutheran College/Universities Claim their Theological Roots?
Darrell Jodock
Gustavus Adolphus College
https://digitalcommons.augustana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1458&context=intersections
Darrell Jodock bio
https://wp.stolaf.edu/lutherancenter/meet-the-council/darrell-jodock/
PhD from Yale.
Truly inspirting. It will be a blessing if VU can take on this third path with success.
The polarization of our politics and religion will be hard forces to combat. But it is a noble and worthwhile task. OP Kretzmann said we (VU) must be Athens and Jerusalem and that was always the vision for Valpo at least in his long and spirited era. Naturally the faculty will have to accept the courage to go down this 3rd path in the face of national peers who nearly all want the non-sectarian version.
It appears that Valpo is continuing to attract top notch students, at least from Fremont High in Indiana. This article indicates Valpo go the Valedictorian and two Salutatorians from their graduating class! Great news!
https://www.kpcnews.com/heraldrepublican/article_f593ef13-f3f6-5107-a573-1a5a8bbd68b3.html
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 13, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Characteristics that should never and very likely will never be associated with Valparaiso University:
-A place where other denominations within the christian faith are derided as lukewarm.
-Faculty, students and others with the university referring to people whose religious convictions differ from their own as "postchristian".
-An environment only acceptable to those who demand a more conservative, faith-based experience and do not want those whose views differ from their own included in that environment.
Indeed, if VU goes down a narrower route, then it will lose a sizable chunk of its alumni/ae support and become a much less interesting and inclusive place to be. It will also be less appealing to a generation of young folks who embrace everyday inclusion as a no-biggie value, without the ideological hangups or debates framed by their elder generations.
For better or worse (and I think the former), Valpo has to strike a challenging balance in serving all of its major constituencies, which includes both a significant, conservative leaning Lutheran core
and folks from all different backgrounds and beliefs who somehow find their way to this modestly sized university on the outskirts of Chicagoland and come out of it with a meaningful and important experience.
If it fails to strike that balance, especially if it goes too far in either extreme, then its survival will be questionable. In some ways, VU's future reflects in smaller scale the future facing America, i.e., can our institutions define themselves in a certain distinctive voice, without excluding or bashing others?
Quote from: vu72 on May 22, 2021, 10:01:45 AM
It appears that Valpo is continuing to attract top notch students, at least from Fremont High in Indiana. This article indicates Valpo go the Valedictorian and two Salutatorians from their graduating class! Great news!
https://www.kpcnews.com/heraldrepublican/article_f593ef13-f3f6-5107-a573-1a5a8bbd68b3.html
That's interesting since Fremont HS has an enrollment of 298.
The three students going to Valpo are the three on the right.
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/kpcnews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/c7/1c7a2ee1-a221-5dfe-9ca3-da1775c0ec10/60a7ecb382354.image.jpg?resize=750%2C496)
I also noticed that Lucas Lennen, the Valedictorian from Fremont who picked Valpo, was also named on the Northeast Corner Conference all academic team. It doesn't mention what sport Lucas was involved in.
https://www.goshennews.com/sports/prep-athletics-necc-releases-all-academic-team/article_a066a126-971b-11eb-9eff-ff262f73ec0d.html
On a sad note in January of 2020 Lucas Lennen lost his older brother, Lance Lennen, in an ice fishing accident on Snow Lake.
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/fremont-in/lance-lennen-9009331
Quote from: David81 on May 24, 2021, 12:04:05 AM
Indeed, if VU goes down a narrower route, then it will lose a sizable chunk of its alumni/ae support and become a much less interesting and inclusive place to be. It will also be less appealing to a generation of young folks who embrace everyday inclusion as a no-biggie value, without the ideological hangups or debates framed by their elder generations.
For better or worse (and I think the former), Valpo has to strike a challenging balance in serving all of its major constituencies, which includes both a significant, conservative leaning Lutheran core and folks from all different backgrounds and beliefs who somehow find their way to this modestly sized university on the outskirts of Chicagoland and come out of it with a meaningful and important experience.
If it fails to strike that balance, especially if it goes too far in either extreme, then its survival will be questionable. In some ways, VU's future reflects in smaller scale the future facing America, i.e., can our institutions define themselves in a certain distinctive voice, without excluding or bashing others?
David81 brings up a number of good points. Clearly VU faces a number of challenges. These include shrinking demographics of college-age students, a problem in the Midwest in particular. In addition, many private universities face substantial financial challenges. Just looking at the endowments, VU is better than some and worse than others: Just looking at private schools in Indiana, VU's endowment of $252M is much less than DePauw ($693M), similar to Butler ($212M) and way better than Evansville ($93M). Beyond this, I fully agree that VU must strike a balance in reaching out to a broad constituency while also providing an excellent educational experience: There has to be a clear value proposition such that students (and their families, and their future employers) would choose VU. As a College of Engineering alum, I can say with certainty that I got an outstanding education, and specifics of faith (or atheism for that matter) did not come up in engineering classes. I'd also maintain that someone who is an atheist should be able come to Valpo and get an excellent educational experience.
Clearly considerations on diversity and inclusion are important, yet a private university should be able also maintain its identity. For example, from a distance, it looks like Notre Dame and Baylor have become more diverse and inclusive, yet each of those has a also maintained their identity as flagship Catholic and Baptist universities. Places like Duke or Butler have disassociated themselves from their historic denominational identity. All of these are fine universities, and someone who choses one over the other may have any number of reasons for doing so, yet they all provide a value proposition to the student who study there.
To get more specific, look at Notre Dame's class of 2023, which showed substantial diversity (https://ndsmcobserver.com/2019/08/class-of-2023-increases-retention/ (https://ndsmcobserver.com/2019/08/class-of-2023-increases-retention/), with 28.9% US students of color and elsewhere it was reported that it is about 50/50 split on gender. Notre Dame is also 81.5% Catholic. (BTW, the state of Indiana is about 85% white). Though not perfect, it seems that Notre Dame has both upped their game on diversity and inclusion while maintaining and embracing their commitment to being a flagship Catholic university.
On VU, the last numbers I have (from 2019) show that VU's student body is about 68.9% white, which suggests it is at least somewhat similar to what Notre Dame is doing on that dimension.
It looks to me like rather than "going down a narrower route", VU has ran as far as possible away from its Lutheran identity. Students (and families) are voting with their feet. This is the percentage of Lutheran undergrads by decade:
1969 73%
1979 51%
1989 52%
1999 37%
2009 (31.5%)
2019 (17.2%)
(After 2004 VU's reporting methodology changed, and the Lutheran% excludes those who did not indicate a preference. These were re-calculated to make an apples to apples comparison). BTW, in 2019, approximately 7.4% of the students were LCMS, down from 16.1% in 2009.
Quote from: wh on May 15, 2021, 04:55:25 PM
2019
In a Diverse Society, Why Should Lutheran College/Universities Claim their Theological Roots?
Darrell Jodock
Gustavus Adolphus College
https://digitalcommons.augustana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1458&context=intersections
Darrell Jodock bio
https://wp.stolaf.edu/lutherancenter/meet-the-council/darrell-jodock/
PhD from Yale.
I was hoping to get more feedback than just crusadermoe about Dr. Jodock's recommendations for Lutheran universities trying to balance inclusiveness and denominational identity. It takes a little while to scan through it, but well worth the investment of time IMO. I can tell this is someone with a lot of knowledge and wisdom under the hood.
Quote from: valpo95 on May 24, 2021, 12:10:20 PMAs a College of Engineering alum, I can say with certainty that I got an outstanding education,
I think all of the professional schools have an outstanding reputation. As an aside, the Engineering College is a major selling point for the football team. The pitch goes like this--"So do you want to play D1 football and studying at one of the top 13 non-doctorate undergrad engineering schools in the country? If so, your choices are Bucknell, San Diego, Lafayette and Valpo--unless you want to commit to six years in one of the military branches." We have a lot of engineering students playing football.
Quote from: valpo95 on May 24, 2021, 12:10:20 PMIt looks to me like rather than "going down a narrower route", VU has ran as far as possible away from its Lutheran identity. Students (and families) are voting with their feet. This is the percentage of Lutheran undergrads by decade:
1969 73%
1979 51%
1989 52%
1999 37%
2009 (31.5%)
2019 (17.2%)
(After 2004 VU's reporting methodology changed, and the Lutheran% excludes those who did not indicate a preference. These were re-calculated to make an apples to apples comparison). BTW, in 2019, approximately 7.4% of the students were LCMS, down from 16.1% in 2009.
I think there are a couple of things that have contributed to the declining number of Lutherans at Valpo. You have the fact that since about 2010 the LCMS has shifted noticeably to the right (starting with the election of Matthew Harrison as President).
At the same time Valpo shifted its recruiting to focus on the Midwest. I've mentioned it before but my wife and I used to volunteer at college fairs in the DC area. Sometimes they would be at Lutheran churches, other times at schools. It was about 2015 or so when Valpo suddenly stopped going to them. It was a low cost way to get Valpo's name out there and to keep the alumni involved but I guess the powers that be thought otherwise.
We're gonna lose some kids in the fall due to the university's unnecessary and hasty decision to require COVID vaccinations. Most universities aren't requiring vaccinations since they are aware that cases are dropping precipitously nationwide, and even if an 18-22 year gets the virus, the risk of serious illness is extraordinarily low.
VU could have waited on this. If there had been a rise in cases during the summer, then the vaccination requirement issue could revisited. It's not like you have to wait anymore to get a shot.
Can someone tell the university to quit posting Instagram photos of students wearing masks on campus while doing stuff outside? It makes them look like a bunch of dorks.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on June 09, 2021, 09:13:41 PM
We're gonna lose some kids in the fall due to the university's unnecessary and hasty decision to require COVID vaccinations. Most universities aren't requiring vaccinations since they are aware that cases are dropping precipitously nationwide, and even if an 18-22 year gets the virus, the risk of serious illness is extraordinarily low.
VU could have waited on this. If there had been a rise in cases during the summer, then the vaccination requirement issue could revisited. It's not like you have to wait anymore to get a shot.
Can someone tell the university to quit posting Instagram photos of students wearing masks on campus while doing stuff outside? It makes them look like a bunch of dorks.
Paul
Or, on the other hand, posting the vaccination requirement allowed students and their families to make their choice whether to attend Valpo with the knowledge that there was a higher probability that the campus environment would be as close as possible to normal.
Agree about posting pictures of students wearing masks. Wherever one stands on masks, this fosters an image of a time we all want to move past.
Quote from: 78crusader on June 09, 2021, 09:13:41 PM
We're gonna lose some kids in the fall due to the university's unnecessary and hasty decision to require COVID vaccinations. Most universities aren't requiring vaccinations since they are aware that cases are dropping precipitously nationwide, and even if an 18-22 year gets the virus, the risk of serious illness is extraordinarily low.
VU could have waited on this. If there had been a rise in cases during the summer, then the vaccination requirement issue could revisited. It's not like you have to wait anymore to get a shot.
Can someone tell the university to quit posting Instagram photos of students wearing masks on campus while doing stuff outside? It makes them look like a bunch of dorks.
Paul
Variants are still out there, Paul. This could be a very serious mistake by those schools that don't require the vaccination(s). In my view there is no good reason not to get your vaccination(s) at this point and it's a political statement and not a practical decision.
I guess you guys are not keeping up with the data. Everyone in my family is vacinated so I have not been an Anti-Vaxer, but knowing what I know now there is no way I would let my child get the vaccine. Young men getting myocarditis at 25X baseline and the propensity for the spike protein to go to the ovaries, heart muscle and brain. The Government's own VAERS data from June 11th shows that at least 5888 People have died in the US from an adverse reaction associated with the vaccine. The well known bias of this database is for things to be under reported.
Here are articles about the June 4th data from both sides of the argument, you tell me which one appears more credible. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/26/instagram-posts/theres-no-proof-covid-19-vaccine-has-injured-or-ki/ (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/26/instagram-posts/theres-no-proof-covid-19-vaccine-has-injured-or-ki/) https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-data-deaths-reported-following-covid-vaccines/ (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-data-deaths-reported-following-covid-vaccines/)
Watch this video of Dr. Malone, who is the discoverer of in-vitro and in-vivo RNA transfection
and the inventor of mRNA vaccines, while he was at the Salk Institute in 1988. His research was continued at Vical in 1989, where the first in-vivo mammalian experiments were designed by him. The mRNA, constructs, reagents were developed at the Salk institute and Vical by Dr. Malone. Mr. Steve Kirsch is a serial tech entrepreneur with multiple degrees from MIT and is the founder of the Covid-19 Early Treatment Fund, which is an international fund for scientists looking at repurposed drugs for Covid-19 trials. He has also done extensive meta analysis of COVID-19 data and has been researching adverse reactions to COVID vaccines. In 2003, Hillary Clinton presented him with a National Caring Award.
Dr. Bret Weinstein is a theoretical evolutionary biologist focused on adaptive patterns within complex, dynamic systems. He is the moderator of this discussion
This video is very long and also very technical. You will get the point if you only watch the first 25 minutes.
This is the biodistribution graph created from the Pfizer data obtained via Byram Bridle FOIA request to help you visualize where the vaccine is going in your child's body. This shows you the the sites where it cranks out the toxic spike protein; the higher the line, the greater the production of spike protein that can cause damage to blood vessels and cause inflammation.
(https://trialsitenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Ovaries-get-the-mRNA-from-Pfizer-Shot-Graph-1024x712.png.webp)
Biodistribution of lipid nanoparticles which carry the mRNA show that the ovaries get the highest concentration. This turns the ovaries into a very large manufacturing plant to turn out toxic spike protein and may have effects on fertility. There is much more to see in the video and also in the article referenced in the description.
Quote from: vu84v2 on June 09, 2021, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on June 09, 2021, 09:13:41 PM
We're gonna lose some kids in the fall due to the university's unnecessary and hasty decision to require COVID vaccinations. Most universities aren't requiring vaccinations since they are aware that cases are dropping precipitously nationwide, and even if an 18-22 year gets the virus, the risk of serious illness is extraordinarily low.
VU could have waited on this. If there had been a rise in cases during the summer, then the vaccination requirement issue could revisited. It's not like you have to wait anymore to get a shot.
Can someone tell the university to quit posting Instagram photos of students wearing masks on campus while doing stuff outside? It makes them look like a bunch of dorks.
Paul
Or, on the other hand, posting the vaccination requirement allowed students and their families to make their choice whether to attend Valpo with the knowledge that there was a higher probability that the campus environment would be as close as possible to normal.
Agree about posting pictures of students wearing masks. Wherever one stands on masks, this fosters an image of a time we all want to move past.
My university in downtown Boston also announced a vaccination requirement for all students and employees. I don't hear any loud pushback from students, their parents, or employees. In Massachusetts our infection rates have dropped precipitously since the vaccine rollouts began, and we are beginning to re-open after a difficult year.
While marketing with mask photographs may not be the most canny recruitment strategy, where I live there's a "no biggie" attitude evolving toward mask wearing, now that official mandates have been lifted and private businesses have the right to decide for themselves whether customers and employees are required to wear them. On the streets of downtown Boston, some are wearing masks, some aren't. Most of us at least carry a mask in case we enter a place where they're required. It's less something to be "forgotten" (truly, who will ever forget this time, and there's no guarantee that we won't have to use them regularly again), and more a transition into a semblance of normalcy.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Quote from: David81 on June 13, 2021, 09:12:35 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on June 09, 2021, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on June 09, 2021, 09:13:41 PM
We're gonna lose some kids in the fall due to the university's unnecessary and hasty decision to require COVID vaccinations. Most universities aren't requiring vaccinations since they are aware that cases are dropping precipitously nationwide, and even if an 18-22 year gets the virus, the risk of serious illness is extraordinarily low.
VU could have waited on this. If there had been a rise in cases during the summer, then the vaccination requirement issue could revisited. It's not like you have to wait anymore to get a shot.
Can someone tell the university to quit posting Instagram photos of students wearing masks on campus while doing stuff outside? It makes them look like a bunch of dorks.
Paul
Or, on the other hand, posting the vaccination requirement allowed students and their families to make their choice whether to attend Valpo with the knowledge that there was a higher probability that the campus environment would be as close as possible to normal.
Agree about posting pictures of students wearing masks. Wherever one stands on masks, this fosters an image of a time we all want to move past.
My university in downtown Boston also announced a vaccination requirement for all students and employees. I don't hear any loud pushback from students, their parents, or employees. In Massachusetts our infection rates have dropped precipitously since the vaccine rollouts began, and we are beginning to re-open after a difficult year.
While marketing with mask photographs may not be the most canny recruitment strategy, where I live there's a "no biggie" attitude evolving toward mask wearing, now that official mandates have been lifted and private businesses have the right to decide for themselves whether customers and employees are required to wear them. On the streets of downtown Boston, some are wearing masks, some aren't. Most of us at least carry a mask in case we enter a place where they're required. It's less something to be "forgotten" (truly, who will ever forget this time, and there's no guarantee that we won't have to use them regularly again), and more a transition into a semblance of normalcy.
HOWEVER, at another nearby law school here in Boston, a litigation-minded law student is suing his school for requiring vaccinations on grounds that it violates the terms of the generous scholarship he received.
https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2021/06/rising-2l-sues-law-school-says-required-covid-19-vaccination-violates-his-full-ride-unconditional-scho.html
Let the games begin....
On June 11 a 19-year old college student in the midwest died after receiving a heart transplant, following a diagnosis of myocarditis, which is an inflammation of the heart. Her college has required all students to get vaccinated before reporting back to campus this fall. This student received her first shot and was scheduled to receive the second shot within days of becoming ill.
Myocarditis has been linked to COVID vaccinations, especially in young men. The risk may be quite small, but it is still much, much greater for college age students than actually contracting COVID.
I maintain that the decision of our new President to require all students to be vaccinated before reporting back this fall was hasty, unnecessary, and unwise. It has subjected our students to unnecessary and avoidable risk.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on June 14, 2021, 12:36:24 PMI maintain that the decision of our new President to require all students to be vaccinated before reporting back this fall was hasty, unnecessary, and unwise. It has subjected our students to unnecessary and avoidable risk.
So you think masks are "dorky" and you think that requiring people to be vaccinated is unwise. Why are you pro virus?
Over 600K people have died from COVID. Thousands of others suffer from long term side effects from the virus. Every death is a tragedy. But it would be a greater tragedy to allow the unchecked spread of a disease that would cause many additional deaths.
Not pro virus.
Been vaccinated.
The stats simply show that for young people there is more risk from the vaccine than from the illness itself. As noted by FWalum, the government's own VAERS reporting system - which is completely voluntary and therefore underreported -shows nearly 5900 deaths from the vaccine, not to mention many instances of myocarditis, particularly among young men. Those age 19 or younger represent 0.1% of all COVID deaths. At one point last fall - I lost track at some point - 40,000 college students came down with the virus - with 2 hospitalizations. Two.
I will, however, plead guilty to the charge of thinking that young, healthy college-age students, like those posted by VU on Instagram, who continue to wear masks while outside are dorks.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on June 14, 2021, 02:21:08 PM
...As noted by FWalum, the government's own VAERS reporting system - which is completely voluntary and therefore underreported -shows nearly 5900 deaths from the vaccine, not to mention many instances of myocarditis...
Paul
This is absurd and false, and it is imperative not to spread misinformation. The VAERS does NOT show 5900 deaths from the vaccine. It does show that some people who have been vaccinated have died, yet NOT that the vaccine was the cause of their deaths!
To break it down further, just looking at the numbers from the year 2021, there are 4699 individuals who died who are listed in the VAERS database. The average age of those 4699 individuals is 73.5 years old - some died from COVID-19, and some had a number of other comorbidities.
For the first case (reported 1/1/2021), there is limited information other than that the individual was 78 years old. However, look at the next two cases:
Age 82: "After vaccination, patient tested positive for COVID-19. Patient was very ill and had numerous chronic health issues prior to vaccination. Facility had a number of patients who had already tested positive for COVID-19. Vaccination continued in an effort to prevent this patient from contracting the virus or to mitigate his risk. This was unsuccessful and patient died...COVID-19 positive test approximately one week after vaccination. There is no evidence to support that the vaccine caused his death in any way."
Age 90: "At the time of vaccination, there was an outbreak of residents who had already tested positive for COVID 19 at the nursing home where patient was a resident. About a week later, patient tested positive for COVID 19. She had a number of chronic, underlying health conditions. The vaccine did not have enough time to prevent COVID 19. There is no evidence that the vaccination caused patient's death. It simply didn't have time to save her life....Patient was a resident of a long term care facility and had numerous chronic conditions prior to vaccination."
We can debate the merits of vaccines for young people, yet we should do so with facts and not false conspiracy theories.
Quote from: valpo95 on June 14, 2021, 03:47:50 PMThis is absurd and false, and it is imperative not to spread misinformation. The VAERS does NOT show 5900 deaths from the vaccine. It does show that some people who have been vaccinated have died, yet NOT that the vaccine was the cause of their deaths!
To break it down further, just looking at the numbers from the year 2021, there are 4699 individuals who died who are listed in the VAERS database. The average age of those 4699 individuals is 73.5 years old - some died from COVID-19, and some had a number of other comorbidities.
For the first case (reported 1/1/2021), there is limited information other than that the individual was 78 years old. However, look at the next two cases:
Age 82: "After vaccination, patient tested positive for COVID-19. Patient was very ill and had numerous chronic health issues prior to vaccination. Facility had a number of patients who had already tested positive for COVID-19. Vaccination continued in an effort to prevent this patient from contracting the virus or to mitigate his risk. This was unsuccessful and patient died...COVID-19 positive test approximately one week after vaccination. There is no evidence to support that the vaccine caused his death in any way."
Age 90: "At the time of vaccination, there was an outbreak of residents who had already tested positive for COVID 19 at the nursing home where patient was a resident. About a week later, patient tested positive for COVID 19. She had a number of chronic, underlying health conditions. The vaccine did not have enough time to prevent COVID 19. There is no evidence that the vaccination caused patient's death. It simply didn't have time to save her life....Patient was a resident of a long term care facility and had numerous chronic conditions prior to vaccination."
We can debate the merits of vaccines for young people, yet we should do so with facts and not false conspiracy theories.
I am only going to state facts. I work with health databases on an almost daily basis as I do software for Health Departments and Vital Records in Indiana. VAERS is a CDC database to which
anyone can report adverse vaccine reactions. However, the vast majority of these reports are done by someone in the healthcare fields. Doctors are mandated to do so if there could be ANY potential causation between the vaccine and the adverse reaction. As of June 4th there most definitely were 5888 deaths
reported this year in VAERS related to the COVID-19 vaccinations. We do not know the relationship of the deaths to the vaccine at this point for many reasons, one of which is that the CDC literally is swamped. But even if 25% of the deaths show a casual relationship to the vaccine this will be, by the end of 2021, a 2000% increase from the
reported deaths 2020. I love how most articles that are trying to downplay the deaths
reported to VAERS in 2021 are saying the average age of people
reported to have died from the COVID-19 vaccinations is 73.5 years old. This is absolutely true and it is also true that this is the first vaccine in many generations (perhaps ever) that is being given universally to the elderly and even those that might be potentially terminally ill. I can agree that the deaths have been primarily in older people, I think that was expected. I get that many of them had contributing factors and it would be harder to determine if the vaccine was a contributing factor in their death, but they aren't just throwaways. Let's take it a step further and remove the very elderly from the equation. There have been 1131 deaths
reported in the 65-75 year age range. If only 8% show a casual relationship to the vaccine that will mean that this age range will have at least 180 actual deaths in 2021 compared to 166
total deaths
reported in 2020. So now let's go to the younger side of the data. With 5 months reporting in 2021 we have 97
reported deaths in the 15-35 age range, that would mean for the year we should have close to 196
reports just for that age range, 30 more than all of the
reports for 2020.
I will say that my statement
"The Government's own VAERS data from June 11th shows that at least 5888 People have died in the US from an adverse reaction associated with the vaccine." made in my earlier post was inaccurate. I should have said "The Government's own VAERS data from June 11th
reports that at least 5888 People
may have died in the US from an adverse reaction associated with the vaccine."
What we are statistically comparing are the
VAERS reports from the previous years starting in 1990 to 2020 versus the five months of reporting in 2021. You can not dispute the fact that, unless you believe the medical professions have conspired to render the VAERS data useless, potentially scare the public and bolster the Anti-Vaxers, something very unusual is going on with these vaccines. More potentially related deaths have been reported in 2021 then in ALL the previous years combined. At the current rate VAERS will probably report 10,000 potentially related Covid-19 vaccine deaths in 2021. So please explain to me how anything I have written about this subject, other than what I have already confessed, is misinformation, absurd, false or a conspiracy theory.
I and my immediate family that can be vaccinated have received the vaccine. As perhaps you read elsewhere on this forum I was in the hospital twice in December with COVID-19 related issues. My wife is a biochemistry professor and my daughter is a doctor at the Children's National Hospital. Every hypothesis related to SARS-CoV-2 and these vaccines should be debated openly. The censorship has got to stop. I believe that literally tens of thousands of lives have been lost because of greed, ego and the geo-political atmosphere.
Perhaps this 14 minute video would be interesting to you where Dr. Robert Malone, who is the discoverer of in-vitro and in-vivo RNA transfection and the inventor of mRNA vaccines, explains VAERS, what is happening at the FDA and clinical trial reporting.
Quote from: FWalum on June 14, 2021, 09:14:24 PMI will say that my statement "The Government's own VAERS data from June 11th shows that at least 5888 People have died in the US from an adverse reaction associated with the vaccine." made in my earlier post was inaccurate. I should have said "The Government's own VAERS data from June 11th reports that at least 5888 People may have died in the US from an adverse reaction associated with the vaccine."
What we are statistically comparing are the VAERS reports from the previous years starting in 1990 to 2020 versus the five months of reporting in 2021. You can not dispute the fact that, unless you believe the medical professions have conspired to render the VAERS data useless, potentially scare the public and bolster the Anti-Vaxers, something very unusual is going on with these vaccines. More potentially related deaths have been reported in 2021 then in ALL the previous years combined. At the current rate VAERS will probably report 10,000 potentially related Covid-19 vaccine deaths in 2021. So please explain to me how anything I have written about this subject, other than what I have already confessed, is misinformation, absurd, false or a conspiracy theory.
FWAlum, I appreciate your passion. You've confessed the first inaccuracy of the prior post, specifically the statement that those deaths were directly caused by the vaccine and not something else. The misinformation is to continue allege, without proof, that there will be a large number of deaths "potentially related" to the COVID-19 vaccine and to insinuate that the vaccine was the cause of the deaths.
Looking through the database, there are many cases of deaths of individuals who were vaccinated. If you start looking at the cases, there are many like the three first cases I specifically called out, where people died after being vaccinated yet the vaccine did not have time to protect them from COVID. In another case, a 61 year old man was in hospice for terminal lung cancer, and died after being vaccinated, the cancer is likely more a cause of death than the vaccine. I could go on and on with similar cases, yet hopefully the point is clear that just because there is an entry in the database it does not mean there is a direct correlation.
What is unusual is that we have a global pandemic, and to date 174 million people vaccinated in the last six months in the USA. The good news of the vaccine database is that these accounts are being recorded for further study and analysis.
Quote from: valpo95 on June 14, 2021, 03:47:50 PM
We can debate the merits of vaccines for young people, yet we should do so with facts and not false conspiracy theories.
One of the most dramatic revelations and damaging situations of the past few years has been the suppression of speech by the mass media (major newspapers, networks, social media platforms) in cooperation with scientists and politicians covering up or claiming opposing positions as "false conspiracy theories," especially in relation to China's involvement and the origins of the virus in Wuhan. Time after time, what the media censored and called conspiracy theories in this topic and in numerous other issues have proven to be true, so much so that the automatic response by many has been shifted to a default view that "if the major media says it or suppresses it, the media are lying."
[tweet]1404781074581016578[/tweet]
Let's see...5888 deaths divided by the vaccinated total of 174,000,000 = .00003384. That's a lot of zeros!
Back to the original topic--FOCUS 1 is underway. Do we have any indication how the class number is shaping up?
Anyone?..... Anyone?..... Bueller?.... Bueller?....
President Padilla starts his town halls tomorrow so we should know more shortly--at least an indication as to direction.
There are about 630 students ready to go for the Fall. President Padilla is not happy with those numbers but he is very high on the VP for Enrollment. He started at a strange time, less than two months ago, and won't move here till mid September so we won't know his true value until next school year. Brian O'Rourke will have his work cut out for him but let's hope for the best.
I believe that 630 number is for undergraduates only with transfers it's around 750 total but I believe the magic number overall is them wanting to see around 800/850 to have a stable and reliable enrollment. In the alum townhall I listened too he mentioned that classes of 1000 probably won't be what they shoot for in the future to avoid peaks and valleys of recruiting. I got the vibe that he is firmly in the it's better to be slightly smaller but extremely stable than slightly larger but living and dying by enrollment to this degree.
While I'm sure these numbers aren't what they were hoping for, I think they are actually pretty decent given the environment and staff challenges they were working with.
Quote from: DuneHwx on July 26, 2021, 11:41:41 AM
While I'm sure these numbers aren't what they were hoping for, I think they are actually pretty decent given the environment and staff challenges they were working with.
I think you are having a little "premature pronunciation" with that poster name there. ::)
Wondering if Dunehxs works for the university. If you set the bar low enough you are more likely to clear it.
Haha, nope I don't work for the university. I just know the landscape is tough for all private schools. And I have no insider info with the user name, just thought it would seem either appropriate or hilarious when they pick something else.
Quote from: DuneHwx on July 27, 2021, 01:19:33 PM
Haha, nope I don't work for the university. I just know the landscape is tough for all private schools. And I have no insider info with the user name, just thought it would seem either appropriate or hilarious when they pick something else.
I'm hearing that it will be Dunehawks but there is certainly nothing confirmed.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Today we officially welcome new students with our annual Opening Convocation! Our incoming class includes 180 graduate students who represent 11 states and 5 countries and more than 750 freshmen and transfer students from more than 30 states and 18 countries. pic.twitter.com/lm7eg3Jt9D (https://t.co/lm7eg3Jt9D)</p>— Valparaiso University (@ValpoU) August 24, 2021 (https://twitter.com/ValpoU/status/1430275225825026055?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Seems ok all things considered. Need solid improvement next year.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on August 24, 2021, 07:26:00 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Today we officially welcome new students with our annual Opening Convocation! Our incoming class includes 180 graduate students who represent 11 states and 5 countries and more than 750 freshmen and transfer students from more than 30 states and 18 countries. pic.twitter.com/lm7eg3Jt9D (https://t.co/lm7eg3Jt9D)</p>— Valparaiso University (@ValpoU) August 24, 2021 (https://twitter.com/ValpoU/status/1430275225825026055?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Seems ok all things considered. Need solid improvement next year.
Agreed. It will only get better with new leadership. Trivia for the day: how many states are represented by just the football team and by athletes overall? Answer: 27 and 31. Seems the athletic coaches are bette recruiters than the recruiters! ???
From the Wall Street Journal:
QuoteAt the close of the 2020-21 academic year, women made up 59.5% of college students, an all-time high, and men 40.5%, according to enrollment data from the National Student Clearinghouse, a nonprofit research group. U.S. colleges and universities had 1.5 million fewer students compared with five years ago, and men accounted for 71% of the decline.
Why?
Quote from: Just Sayin on September 18, 2021, 11:03:11 AM
From the Wall Street Journal:
QuoteAt the close of the 2020-21 academic year, women made up 59.5% of college students, an all-time high, and men 40.5%, according to enrollment data from the National Student Clearinghouse, a nonprofit research group. U.S. colleges and universities had 1.5 million fewer students compared with five years ago, and men accounted for 71% of the decline.
Why?
From the Atlantic (in part):
The most severe implications, I suspect, will be cultural and political. The U.S. electorate is already polarized by college and gender: Women and college graduates strongly favor Democrats, while men and people without college degrees lean Republican. Those divisions seem likely to worsen if the parties' attitudes toward each other calcify into gender stereotypes. "My biggest worry is that by the time policy makers realize that gender inequality in college is a problem, we'll have hit a point where college will seem deeply effeminate to some men in a way that will be hard to undo," Reeves said. "That's why we need both parties to offer a positive vision of college and a positive vision of masculinity. If male identity is seen, by some, as being at odds with education, that's a problem for the whole country."
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/young-men-college-decline-gender-gap-higher-education/620066/
As our aging workforce retires, there more and more opportunities for jobs without a traditional post high school education. All the trades are short on workers, as well as other jobs. Although many of these jobs need training, they typically aren't classified as college education. I think there is also a lot of bias still in these jobs towards men. The other factor that alot of jobs are just looking for minimal secondary education and young adults kind find jobs. Machinist is one of them, most will only attend school for a year or less and can find a job making $45 to $50k per year. Engineers with 4 year degree are only making $55 to 60k, along with a 6 figure debt.
With all the controversy about the COVID vaccine, I'm wondering how much the university's COVID vaccine mandate affected enrollment. I think it would be naive to think it had no impact, or even that it had only negligible impact.
I'm not looking to regurgitate the vaccine debate. I know all the arguments. I'm also not questioning the university's decision to mandate vaccinations for everyone. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with critics on both sides, meaning it's impossible to come out unscathed. I'm merely suggesting that this year's enrollment numbers may not be indicative of any normal consideration - demographic shifts, Lutheran participation, student debt, value, school image, etc.
Quote from: wh on September 21, 2021, 09:14:12 AM
With all the controversy about the COVID vaccine, I'm wondering how much the university's COVID vaccine mandate affected enrollment. I think it would be naive to think it had no impact, or even that it had only negligible impact.
I'm not looking to regurgitate the vaccine debate. I know all the arguments. I'm also not questioning the university's decision to mandate vaccinations for everyone. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with critics on both sides, meaning it's impossible to come out unscathed. I'm merely suggesting that this year's enrollment numbers may not be representative of any normal consideration - demographic shifts, Lutheran participation, student debt, value, school image, etc.
Well said. No doubt virtually all universities and colleges have been hit in some way by the pandemic. To his credit, and no doubt, why he was hired to begin with, he is decisive and a no BS kind of guy. He made the call, right or wrong. As perhaps his first decision was to fire the director of enrollment, I would expect similar actions if people aren't living up to expectations. It's an "all hands on deck" moment for Valpo and that includes those in coaching or teaching positions.
A little tidbit from Fort Wayne. A billboard advertising Valpo has gone up on I69 mile marker 311 recently. I will get a picture in the near future. That is the second billboard I have now seen on I69, one around Angola and now Fort Wayne.
It's about time!
Quote from: FWalum on September 21, 2021, 10:33:56 AM
A little tidbit from Fort Wayne. A billboard advertising Valpo has gone up on I69 mile marker 311 recently. I will get a picture in the near future. That is the second billboard I have now seen on I69, one around Angola and now Fort Wayne.
Indy too but only 2 or 3.
A Valpo radio commercial plays daily on both morning shows on ESPN 1000 in Chicago. It is narrated by sports radio host David Kaplan. It talks about being part of something bigger than yourself, and growing intellectually, spiritually, and socially. It's very well done, IMO. I've heard it off and on for probably several weeks.
VU has run radio commercials on Chicago radio for several years now. Especially over the past 6 months or so they have had them on 670 "The Fan" which is the big talk radio sports radio channel in the Chicago and mid-west market
They were also advertising at the White Sox game. I also heard there was a push to have tailgating at the football games (is the campus still dry? -- I am all for following ND and having it dry except on football Saturdays). Trying to get the student experiences. An engaged student body will help attract more students.
They will be selling beer at both football games and basketball games this year from what I understand.
Quote from: crusader05 on September 25, 2021, 04:26:02 PM
They will be selling beer at both football games and basketball games this year from what I understand.
Who has been hiding that little known fact?
I thought I saw one fairly close to Muncie when I was there recently but I might have been mistaken. It was pretty close to I69 too if I remember correctly. if my mind isn't playing tricks on me it's really good to see Valpo recruiting areas further away from NWI harder. It will help us in the future!
There was a valpo sign behind home plate at the White Sox game not that long ago.
As far as the alcohol at games. Paul Oren tweeted a sign announcing that the ARC was applying for an alcohol license and I've heard from some on campus that the plan is to start after Homecoming(which I think does it's own beer garden thing).
Quote from: crusader05 on September 30, 2021, 09:15:23 PM
There was a valpo sign behind home plate at the White Sox game not that long ago.
As far as the alcohol at games. Paul Oren tweeted a sign announcing that the ARC was applying for an alcohol license and I've heard from some on campus that the plan is to start after Homecoming(which I think does it's own beer garden thing).
Alcohol sales at athletic events make a splash, defy traditional dry campushttp://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_4531a40a-2275-11ec-bd6f-67ade2f8ef97.html
More importantly than the alcohol concessions and to re-direct to this thread, the same Torch newspaper features an an admissions article. The article that cites a fall 2021 enrollment of "just over 600" freshmen" and 130 transfer students. The article suggests a retention problem too, so that points to a current trend line of under 2700 students if this year's entering class numbers continue.
Notably, the new admissions guy says that 800 freshmen by fall 2023 is the level needed to create a more sound university. That is a tall order but perhaps he has the skills to lead us there. So what deficit does that predict for 2021-2022 and for 2022-2023? Taken together with a huge discount rate to get their students, the challenge is even more daunting. The WSJ had a nasty discount rate for Valpo.
One thing I read somewhere was that a big issue is that not only have we had smaller classes but we have also graduated in the last two years two of our largest classes. I'm also worried about retention due to the pandemic as I have heard that it's been an issue across the country with students coming to college, getting overwhelmed, and leaving pretty quickly.
Profit on beer sales at a 2-hour indoor event in a heavily controlled environment will be minuscule, especially on a weekday. Once they pay for the increase in liability insurance and if they have to provide additional security to insure that no one under 21 partakes and to deal with issues when they do, they may even lose money. That said, potentially it could increase attendance, but I think that's questionable. Maybe it's worth a roll of the dice to see, maybe not. I guess we'll find out.
Football games are where the money is. An hour or 2 for tailgating, followed by a game that drags on for 3 1/2 hours. Bigger venue, more people, lots of students drinking illegally, attendees who don't have to go to work or attend classes the next day, etc.
I will say indulging in beer makes watching Valpo football more tolerable. It's a good move.
I have no problem with beer being sold at basketball games (and football games), though I agree with the prior comments that this is likely to generate little (if any) margin. However, I encourage whoever is making the decisions regarding beer sales to include a few choices from a local microbrewery. Doing this could help foster some better connections with the town (as well as being a little different from just offering high volume American lagers).
Quote from: vu84v2 on October 05, 2021, 09:10:32 PM
I have no problem with beer being sold at basketball games (and football games), though I agree with the prior comments that this is likely to generate little (if any) margin. However, I encourage whoever is making the decisions regarding beer sales to include a few choices from a local microbrewery. Doing this could help foster some better connections with the town (as well as being a little different from just offering high volume American lagers).
Excellent suggestion.
I heard that a few years ago that someone approached Valpo to redo the baseball field. They would have paid for the turf and made other improvements (?). Their only stipulation, besides use of the field, was that beer be sold in the concession stand. Valpo turned them down. This is a heresay story, but if it is true, what a poor decision. Baseball is a landmark sport of the MVC and Valpo facilities trail substantially, but are getting closer. And NOW they are selling beer and wine at football and basketball games? I completely support the decision, but it sad to think of the opportunity lost.
valpo64 - "The Score," which has been around since the early 90's
Thanks, "usc".
The baseball field got their makeover anyway through the generosity of two former players' families. In regards to local beer being sold, nothing will happen without the local monopoly, Indiana Beverage, having a hand in it. A case study on unnecessary, archaic state alcohol laws can be found by checking out Indiana's current laws. Very few industries in the country have such powerful monopolistic structures in place.
Btw, baseball and beer will always be hand to hand.
https://www.valpo.edu/news/2021/10/18/valparaiso-university-names-assistant-vice-president-for-mission-church-and-ministry/
New position that seems to be focused on the Lutheran Identity aspect at Valpo and will most likely be a large part in increasing Lutheran student recruitment
Quote from: crusader05 on October 19, 2021, 09:30:57 AM
https://www.valpo.edu/news/2021/10/18/valparaiso-university-names-assistant-vice-president-for-mission-church-and-ministry/
New position that seems to be focused on the Lutheran Identity aspect at Valpo and will most likely be a large part in increasing Lutheran student recruitment
I think this is the same position Brian Johnson had previously. I don't think it is a new position but hopefully it will be more focused on Lutheran enrollment.
Quote from: crusader05 on October 19, 2021, 09:30:57 AM
https://www.valpo.edu/news/2021/10/18/valparaiso-university-names-assistant-vice-president-for-mission-church-and-ministry/
New position that seems to be focused on the Lutheran Identity aspect at Valpo and will most likely be a large part in increasing Lutheran student recruitment
Wartburg College enrollment hits 1,525, highest since 2014
OCTOBER 7, 2020
https://www.wartburg.edu/2020/10/07/wartburg-college-enrollment-hits-1525-highest-since-2014/
We don't know any of the particulars, but the fact that they increased their enrollment to its highest level since 2014 is quite impressive, IMO, especially given the current decline in student population at traditional colleges and universities.
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/02/college-applications-rebounded-by-22percent-this-yearheres-why-.html
Looks like college applications are up 22% this year. Hopefully we are executing well.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on December 08, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/02/college-applications-rebounded-by-22percent-this-yearheres-why-.html
Looks like college applications are up 22% this year. Hopefully we are executing well.
The more important figure is that the data suggests that the number of applicants is up by 13%.
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 08, 2021, 12:11:40 PM
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on December 08, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/02/college-applications-rebounded-by-22percent-this-yearheres-why-.html (https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/02/college-applications-rebounded-by-22percent-this-yearheres-why-.html)
Looks like college applications are up 22% this year. Hopefully we are executing well.
The more important figure is that the data suggests that the number of applicants is up by 13%.
I believe Valpo enrollment will be up this year; how much, it is too early to tell.
It would be interesting to know how many of Valpo's applicants are in that top income quintile. When you need to charge $40,000 tuition plus room and board you need quite a few of those high income folk. Otherwise we end up discounting over 50% like we do now.
Certainly execution of the plan would be a big factor per the last post. As John Mckay of the winless Buccaneers said in their second year when asked about his team's execution said, "I'm in favor of it."
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 08, 2021, 05:29:54 PM
It would be interesting to know how many of Valpo's applicants are in that top income quintile. When you need to charge $40,000 tuition plus room and board you need quite a few of those high income folk. Otherwise we end up discounting over 50% like we do now.
Certainly execution of the plan would be a big factor per the last post. As John Mckay of the winless Buccaneers said in their second year when asked about his team's execution said, "I'm in favor of it."
The Valpo websites shows total cost (some estimates) of $60,488 for a semester but adds that on balance students "only" pay $14,709 of tuition. So if the total cost is $60,488 and tuition net cost is $14,709 then the out-of-pocket net cost is $31,797.
They also say the average student gets $38,000 is assistance, which would bring the net cost down to "only" $22,488. Some where we have an unaccounted for $8000?
I any event, it costs A LOT. Not sure a bunch of lower income folks are going to be heading to Valpo anytime soon.
Extra costs outside of tuition will include student fees, meal plans, and Housing so that's where the extra is coming from.
My guess is that lower income people will qualify for Pell Grants plus scholarships based on merit that help alleviate their cost while those that have high academic achievement but come from wealthy families get the merit/academic scholarships. The people who pay the most are probably those whos students come from a high income family but don't hit the upper level of academic achievement as they will be less likely to receive support on either end.
Most universities sticker costs are not reflective of what they actually pay because of budgeting for scholarships but a high discount rate with decreased enrollment is diffiuclt (it's also why endowment is important because he allows for discounts without taking it out of the annual flow).
From Valpo's undergrad cost page:
Tuition $43,400
General Fee 1,396
Room 7,956
Meals 4,916
Books & supplies 1,200
Personal 1,720
Grand Total $60,488
Ugh. As a parent, nothing bugged me more than the "general fee."
From extensive wh extended family experience over the past 3 years and continuing, Valpo is giving some nice discounts relative to several competitors. The biggest challenge IMO is sticker shock scaring people off from even applying. That happened 3 years ago with my oldest grandchild. I suggested VU, but my son and daughter-in-law said it's too expensive (from seeing the sticker). Based on a comment I recall '72 making on the message board about big discounts, I told them don't give up so easily. They applied and got a great net price (relatively speaking). After all that, she chose DePaul over Valpo anyway, and Dad and Mom are paying about $8,000/yr more. Sometimes, you just can't help your loved ones. lol
One thing I have heard the new enrollment manager is focused on is how we communicate our cost and financial aid to better eliminate the sticker shock and get it out earlier in the process so you have a better chance to talk people through it all vs them seeing it and bailing.
Wondering what the early comp numbers are showing versus last year: Applications, deposits, etc. Early buyouts have been driven by low enrollment revenue obviously. Let's hope we hit bottom last year.
Fortunately, they are way up over the last two years as of now, close to 750. Could be good fortune that the pandemic is having less of an effect now or maybe it's the work of the new V.P. for Enrollment, or both.
The 750 number must be applications, since it is way too early for deposits (deadlines for deposits are usually late Spring).
While increased applications could be a positive indicator, one must temper any enthusiasm from applications. Once a high school student does one application, it is easy to do more (via the Common App.). Further, Valparaiso (like many universities) does not have an application fee for undergraduates. Deposits is a much better (but not perfect) indicator.
750 cannot be apps, even in the last few years we had a few thousand applications total with many of them front loaded. We would be way way behind if that is purely the number of applications.
I think that 750 was their goal and that, from what I've heard, all their metrics clearly have them on track to meet that goal or even exceed it at this time but they haven't actually reached 750 yet.
I do know they are ahead of the last two years in regards to deposits and that the next few months are busy stretches for admissions with time on the road trying to get admitted students to visit campus and also increase the recruiting for juniors/sophomores.
Transfer numbers remain an issue and I believe that graduate numbers are increasing but also still are an area where increased improvement can help immensely.
A couple other pieces I've heard is that they have a larger amount of success when students come to campus for a visit day which I'm sure isn't that surprising and so they have really been working hard with the departments to increase visit day attendance and having more targeted events focused on majors and other interest areas.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on February 02, 2022, 05:51:17 PM
750 cannot be apps, even in the last few years we had a few thousand applications total with many of them front loaded. We would be way way behind if that is purely the number of applications.
You may be right, but it cannot be deposits since it is too early for that number of deposits (I would expect that a good number for deposits right now would be 50-100. It could be something like acceptances or financial aid applications.
Let's hope that the application numbers are really favorable apples to apples.
Is Padilla in St. Louis? I wonder if anyone is there and able to learn a bit more about where things stand. Usually they do some kind of pre-game party and that could offer some informal scoop and/or an actual group gathering Q&A?
Quote from: crusadermoe on March 03, 2022, 04:29:16 PM
Let's hope that the application numbers are really favorable apples to apples.
Is Padilla in St. Louis? I wonder if anyone is there and able to learn a bit more about where things stand. Usually they do some kind of pre-game party and that could offer some informal scoop and/or an actual group gathering Q&A?
It's been well publicized that President Padilla was holding a brunch on SATURDAY (So I guess he is guaranteeing a win today!!)
Thanks. Didn't know that was the case. Good for him.
The Wall Street Journal noted last week the difficult atmosphere for colleges, especially private institutions, in this spring enrollment period due to the exploding inflation rate: "during the pandemic, colleges have faced financial difficulty from lower enrollment, Covid-related expenses, and pressure to increase salaries. Still, this past January saw a 7.5% rise in consumer-price index year over year, but four-year private college tuition rose only 2.1%." This was before the spikes in prices at the gas pump and in various markets related to the Ukraine situation, which will raise the inflation rate to a higher level and could not have come at a worse time. Psychologically, as well as economically, the price viewed daily at the gas pump or in the grocery aisle influences average Americans' spending decisions, including college choices.
Valpo already committed to not hiking tuition this year as a marketing tool; therefore, the inflation rate and increased cost of operations will be felt even more. Additionally, as high-school students' families make decisions about college at this time of year, they are likely to be reluctant to commit to private universities with higher expenses, particularly if they are seeing their personal savings tied to the stock market steadily and dramatically decreasing. These are some unexpected headwinds impacting Valpo during this crucial time in the admissions cycle, and I think the near future becomes uncharted territory. The uncertain consequences of today's unfortunate economic environment, which was the last thing needed as the Covid conditions improve, make any previously optimistic prediction about enrollment numbers unreliable.
Agreed that there are more variables than ever. in admissions forecast. It makes sense that the common application will shoot them out to more and moer schools. And parents would pay deposits to multiple schools to hedge those $250-ish deposits against a $100,000+ investment.
But all caveats aside, there must be some way to compare apples to apples. Budget decisions probably sharpen up pretty soon for the school year 2022-2023 and obviously there will be implications. Can anyone cut through the noise and learn the year-to-year comps on:
# Applications completed
# Deposits
Wow thanks for the great insight 22.
A 574 increase in apps in one year seems great, hopefully it is.
A delta of 8 deposits like you mentioned is within error at this point in time.
That 392 in 2020 makes sense as someone at the university maybe the CFO in like Feb/ March 2020 mentioned how well admissions had been tracking year to date compared to prior years. Then Covid happen a month ish later.
Hopefully we can convert a great number of the admits down the stretch.
QuoteQuote from: valpo22 on March 27, 2022, 08:35:40 AMand new or incoming Deans (Engineering and A&S)
What happened to Kilpinen?
He is taking a year sabbatical and returning to faculty afterward from what I've heard.
In addition to dean changes at Engineering and Arts & Sciences, Susan VanZanten stepped down as dean of Christ College in July of 2021. Jennifer Prough is the interim dean.
Wow, that's great to see the data. It's strange that deposits for fall 2022 are trailing the 2020 stats despite the big apps increase.
But you have to think that the high energy that has generated the big 2022 increase will bear fruit soon. Let's hope for the best!
Judging enrollment progress on applications does not necessarily give you the best indication since it is easy (with common app, etc.) to apply to many many schools. It is not bad that applications have gone up, but deposits (even though they are not large amounts) is more of a commitment. Bottom line is that the colleges and administration must have a constant focus on all stages of the process and not rejoice when one indicator early in the pipeline looks promising.
It seems that this is going to be an outlier year as many 2020 and 2021 high school graduates have waited to enter college. I have a nephew who is a national merit finalist who has been wait-listed on first tier (Ivy League) and second tier schools and has been told that this is the reason. He has been accepted at Valpo, but he won't be making his decision until later in the spring.
If Valpo has a large freshman class next fall, that won't be an indication that it is the beginning of a trend, as it is one year with a surplus of students entering college. The university will have to be careful in its decision making as the temptation would be to accept more to get the revenue, but they shouldn't bloat the faculty, facilities, and staff to accommodate one class.
it might not be an outlier year for us depending on where we land. Last year the highest tier elites and state colleges saw enrollment surges while privates in general saw declines. Some of this was due to elite schools announcing they were waiving their testing requirements which led to a lot more students throwing their hat in the ring and for state schools it was cost. MIT has just announced it's returning it's testing requirement again so we will see what some of the other high prestige schools do in a year or two as well. State schools will continue to take as many people as possible as well. If that trend continues as well as with students who took a gap year applying it could be that strain is only really seen in certain places as well.
Quote from: valpo22 on March 30, 2022, 12:46:19 PM
For sure, I didn't mean to suggest we should expect any unique bumper crop of a year or that there's any cause for jubilation and unwise hiring. My cheery-sounding post earlier was just in hopes the uni might be able to hold enrollment close to steady from last Fall to this upcoming Fall.
Overall, the 'new student headcount' for the undergraduates (which I think includes new freshman + transfers, but which doesn't account for students who transfer *away* from the student body count) has been falling fast the last couple years: https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/institutional-research/enrollment-data/
1092 (2016)
1065 (2017)
969 (2018)
812 (2019)
790 (2020)
737 (2021)
So the fact that the 2022 deposits are only slightly behind last March's seemed heartening, insofar as a tentative -6 student decline is flatter/better than a -30 or -50 loss from year to year. Just hoping to see the bottom of the slide!
At a minimum, Valpo needs to replace the outgoing students - otherwise it is continuing to go in the wrong direction (albeit due to the aforementioned issues regarding 2020 and 2021). It probably has changed a bit, but this suggests that the organizational goal that everyone holds themselves accountable for is 969. There should be no rejoicing, rewards, etc. for anything under that number.
The issue with those numbers is that the top three were all really high, and in one case, record numbers for enrollment. So thinking we need to get back to almost 1000 is probably not going to happen and it definitely shouldn't anytime soon as I believe at that time one other concern was the university really wasn't staffed for that amount of students and it was difficult. If that was an issue pre pandemic prior to layoffs there's no way the current structure of the university could handle that many now. I think I remember hearing that the general consensus is that getting to around 800 consistently is what the university will need for stability without a significant shrinking of faculty and staff. Padilla has said that our pattern of having highs and lows in enrollment is not good and so he would prefer a slow and stable growth to a reasonable number and consistently hitting that target.
The massive drop from fall 2017 to fall 2018 (157 students) was massive and had nothing to do with COVID. COVID seems to shake everything up so who knows what all the factors were then and now.
As a result, predictions for fall 2022 seem to be an really rough science now. So how do you estimate a faculty and staff need in time to budget accurately? I don't envy Pres. Padilla. Even if we get some windfall endowment gifts they won't move the needle a lot this year or next.
I have never posted here. Mainly just read basketball information. Both my wife and I graduated from VU in 93. Both my kids were accepted into VU. One went to Purdue and the other went to IU. Don't get me wrong. I loved my time and VU and go back often. However, after visiting my kids I can see why they wanted to go to IU and Purdue. In terms of campus and surrounding towns those two schools have so much more to offer.
Quote from: Valpo1993 on April 01, 2022, 09:59:05 AM
I have never posted here. Mainly just read basketball information. Both my wife and I graduated from VU in 93. Both my kids were accepted into VU. One went to Purdue and the other went to IU. Don't get me wrong. I loved my time and VU and go back often. However, after visiting my kids I can see why they wanted to go to IU and Purdue. In terms of campus and surrounding towns those two schools have so much more to offer.
Apples to Oranges. Gigantic to tiny. 500 person lectures to getting to know your professors--all of which teach--not graduate assistants. I presume your kids are very smart. No knock on them. Valpo isn't a "party school" and if West Lafayette was such a big thing, it's only an hour's drive from Valpo.
Quote from: valpo22 on April 01, 2022, 04:12:44 PM
Not sure. I think it can be something of a toss-up, in terms of professor attention. To be sure, Valpo doesn't have so many of those really massively anonymous lecture hall classes, and maybe even no 500-student lectures on campus -- but don't forget, the teaching load is higher. So for example, if a R1 state school professor is teaching classes of 60 students but has just 2 courses a semester, and if a Valpo prof is teaching classes of 30 but has 4 courses of a semester, then they each have 120 students either way to keep track of. So that's a toss-up in terms of how much personalized attention the prof can really give to each student and their problem sets or essay writing or whatever. And the SLAC prof is going to be running around a lot more prepping/physically teaching the 4 courses x 3 (MWF) meetings = 12 rather than 6 sessions a week. The class sizes may be smaller in terms of student experience, but the profs are spread a lot thinner prepping, grading and even just showing up & teaching that many more classes themselves.
I do still believe in the value of the small liberal arts university as a real draw; it's just that Valpo will need to somehow retain that personalized attention in this midst of these budget constraints and rising course enrollment caps & course teaching loads, or else there really won't be a reason for students to choose Valpo over PNW or Purdue after all.
You are missing something in your estimates of professors' time. The research load at Purdue, Indiana and other R1s is dramatically higher. Faculty are expected to publish more and publish in the highest tier journals. The mix of research - teaching - service at an R1 like Purdue is probably 70 - 20 - 10. At Valpo, the faculty are expected to publish, but not as often and in a broader and lower tier set of journals. Thus, the mix is probably 30 - 60 - 10. It is safe to assume that an average tenured or tenure track faculty member at Valpo spends twice the time teaching and performing teaching related work (prepping, grading, meeting with students, etc.) than a faculty member at Purdue spends. Bottom line, Valpo does have an advantage over R1s for students who value developing relationships with students - because the faculty at Valpo are allowed more time to do that (and are expected to do so).
valpo22...a few additions to your comments.
-You are right that most tenured and tenure track professors at R1s are teaching one course per term, but most are not teaching large lecture classes. They are teaching Masters or PhD level classes. They get first choice of what courses they teach and the very upper level classes can only be taught by tenured faculty.
-I am not sure if this is what you were implying, but the time spent on research is not only applicable to faculty in hard sciences and engineering. It also applies to all business disciplines and liberal arts (though liberal arts may involve publishing books instead of publishing in journals). The only area where this may not be applicable is health sciences (nursing, physical therapy), since most faculty are active practitioners (regardless of the type of university). You are correct that grant applications play into this as well.
An idea from this is that, for students who are weighing Valpo versus R1s, Valpo offer more explicit information on what faculty do at different universities. The raw information is readily available to build a valid comparison. Not fully sure if this is a good idea and such a comparison would have far less impact when comparing Valpo to most other private schools, but it is something that I hope that student recruitment people consider.
I wish that more high school students (and their parents) understood the educational advantages of a school where most classes are small to medium sized and taught by full-time faculty committed to undergraduate teaching. It's a qualitatively different and better learning experience, and one that hopefully VU can capitalize on to a greater degree in an era where too many students are basing their decisions on bells & whistles and the U.S. News & World Report rankings.
Back in my day (77-81), there's a good argument that research was not sufficiently emphasized as being part of a professor's core work. Professors who published stood out notably, in part because they managed to do so despite the heavy teaching loads put on faculty. I think there's a better balance now. Without sacrificing undergraduate teaching, faculty research can, in turn, enliven classes, enhance the school's reputation, and contribute to building the world's knowledge.
One week out from May 1st any indication of how we are looking?
From what I've heard they're still meeting benchmarks and they feel good about hitting their baseline number which I think is somewhere around 700-740. There's a possibility we exceed it but they're not predicting it. They also apparently have people hired to live in a recruit from I believe Texas and, more recently, Florida, and both have started to generate interest which will hopefully pay off down the line.
Quote from: crusader05 on April 25, 2022, 01:20:28 PM
From what I've heard they're still meeting benchmarks and they feel good about hitting their baseline number which I think is somewhere around 700-740. There's a possibility we exceed it but they're not predicting it. They also apparently have people hired to live in a recruit from I believe Texas and, more recently, Florida, and both have started to generate interest which will hopefully pay off down the line.
Very interesting about Texas. Unless vu72 wants to take the mantle, I am still the leader for the Valpo Club of DFW, and we haven't held an event in 2 years, due to COVID.
Really hoping silence from 22 post May 1st isn't a bad thing
Quote from: valpo22 on May 03, 2022, 02:22:24 PM
I think it turned out okay, not sure. As of yesterday, it was 620 for total incoming freshman+transfer student deposits. Is that close enough to what they were aiming for? (some of you had said the goal was 700?) I imagine they'll keep accepting applications even through the Summer if people decide late. Maybe the news about the fire will help garner interest in the university.
620 does not seem okay...it seems like Valpo may have achieved a goal that was set too low or significantly missed a challenging, but necessary and achievable goal (or both).
After the deposit deadline, a university may get some additional deposits (you never turn anyone away) but is equally likely to have some people decide to forego the deposit (the deposit is not that large). Thus, the most likely outcome with 620 at the end of May 1st is 620.
How does the 620 net out versus May 1 last year? I guess it's actually net revenue anyway. $25,000 seems as good a round number as any. Who knows?
What a weird business model. It's like shopping at Kohls. Like me, you might buy a pair of socks for the sticker price of $27 and snatch it up before others see them.
Best of all you walk up to the register and flash your credit card proudly to pay just $11. Your receipt says, "You just saved $16!" You grin that cavity-laced smile at those folks in line behind you and you say, "Yeah baby!"
Agreed since I don't think we've had the insight 22 has been able to provide in the past it is difficult to tell if that is good or bad since we don't have the past numbers.
As mentioned would need to know the number of deposits from the last number of years and the net amount per student to really know where we stand.
Quote from: valpo22 on May 04, 2022, 09:24:05 AM
I really do think the fire may have helped. In the last days of April, the numbers were lagging much further off compared to last year (mid 550s), but then on May 2 it bounced way up to this 620 range, so I think the publicity was perhaps a blessing in disguise.
May 1 was
National College Decision Day. A rise in deposits was expected. The fire had nothing to do with the bump up.
My understanding is that, for private midwestern universities, the results (i.e. deposits) were mixed. Some universities reported significant increases, some were flat, and some had continued declines. The university that I work at (a larger private university) reported a 15% increase from 2021 and the college in which I work (professionally oriented) reported a 30% increase from 2021, so some private universities are doing pretty well. The 620 number for Valpo seems like Valpo's results had some decline. Of course, discount rate plays into this and I do not have any data on that.
There are a few things to track too that won't show up in the numbers. Such as who is left in your pool of applicants.
From what I've heard is that we are running "behind" last year but ahead of two years ago but last year was lower than 2 years ago because it had a lot to do with overall applicant pool. It sounds like this year they feel much better about the people still left in their pool than they did last year and so it ranges from people thinking it will be around 700 and others thinking it might even come in a bit higher. Now, it doesn't seem like any of these numbers being thrown around are "good enough" but that they at least show that the decline may have stopped and there might be some opportunity for growth albeit not very much. Also retention is still going to matter. They can pull in a higher class but if we lose more students than usual over the summer to transfers it doesn't matter when it comes to the budget.
I have also heard we continue to struggle with getting transfers in and that those numbers remain lower than both years.
Lots of speculation here... other than '22 reporting out the actuals. They probably lock down spending budgets by end of May so that has to be tough, especially the staffing decisions.
@22 anything positive to report on your front?
Quote from: valpo22 on May 26, 2022, 11:44:12 AM
Good news, freshmen deposits are no longer behind, but now up exactly level again with 2020!
Freshmen: 590 (2022), 617 (2021), 590 (2020)
Transfers: 68 (2022), 80 (2021), 101 (2020)
2020 is too low of a benchmark. Most private universities in 2020 saw a major decline because prospective students did not think they would get the high quality in-person experience. 2021 or 2019 are better benchmarks, along with the number of students who graduated or left at the end of the Spring 2022 semester.
I believe our 2020 numbers were actually higher than our 2021 numbers overall but Valpo22 would know that better.
Enrollment is down, money is tight...
Simple math says there should be a bit of over capacity in residences halls.
Brandt almost caused me to not transfer to VU way back in 02 for being such a dump compared to the little state school I was attending at the time, and has to be a major detriment to recruiting students now compared to our competition.
Why not mothball or even demolish those old dorms? Cuts maintenance and utility costs immediately, and better utilization of the overall residency hall capacity. Maybe even let more upperclassmen off campus to free up the nice dorms for more underclassmen.
Quote from: tjn2004 on June 09, 2022, 07:37:11 PM
Why not mothball or even demolish those old dorms? Cuts maintenance and utility costs immediately, and better utilization of the overall residency hall capacity. Maybe even let more upperclassmen off campus to free up the nice dorms for more underclassmen.
Has undergraduate enrollment declined to the point where the vacancy rate is equivalent to an entire residence hall? If not, then better to keep Brandt around, because in the student recruiting game, a so-so dorm space beats no dorm space any day.
As for letting more students live off-campus, VU has always been somewhat paternalistic about this, likely fueled by opportunities to generate revenue from dorm rents and the political reality that keeping most students in dorms makes for better town and gown relationships with the surrounding Valparaiso community.
Mothballing isn't the best optic. Nothing says "campus on the decline" to prospective applicants more than empty buildings.
...and now I'm wondering if Brandt has the same pull-out beds that we had back in the early 80s. ???
Quote from: David81 on June 10, 2022, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: tjn2004 on June 09, 2022, 07:37:11 PM
Why not mothball or even demolish those old dorms? Cuts maintenance and utility costs immediately, and better utilization of the overall residency hall capacity. Maybe even let more upperclassmen off campus to free up the nice dorms for more underclassmen.
Has undergraduate enrollment declined to the point where the vacancy rate is equivalent to an entire residence hall? If not, then better to keep Brandt around, because in the student recruiting game, a so-so dorm space beats no dorm space any day.
As for letting more students live off-campus, VU has always been somewhat paternalistic about this, likely fueled by opportunities to generate revenue from dorm rents and the political reality that keeping most students in dorms makes for better town and gown relationships with the surrounding Valparaiso community.
Mothballing isn't the best optic. Nothing says "campus on the decline" to prospective applicants more than empty buildings.
...and now I'm wondering if Brandt has the same pull-out beds that we had back in the early 80s. ???
I've posted this before, but here is the Brandt hall intro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0GIhFJtBhY
Is it just me or do today's VU students seem "over-lounged"?
The new library has about 12 fireplaces with comfy chairs etc. The new union seems flush with them too. Then the these old dorms ( which no longer serve food) have now inserted more soft comfy furniture in those spaces. I wonder what is the ratio between residential students and comfy chairs? Maybe a psychology student could study it.
I know sound like a grumpy old man. "In my day we didn't all stretch out across a sofa or big chair to do homework! ...We stayed for 18 hours while the lights turned off and on, got sores on our rear ends and splinters in our britches,....and we liked it!" Seriously, I used to hide in one of those "booths" in the Moellering library basement and just grind out paper that had to be done. It takes some willpower that isn't always served well by comfy couches, coffee bars, and play lists running through your mind. And we liked it!!
First, there are cases where people have been put in comfy chairs to try to elicit information from them. This is done if poking them with a soft cushion has been ineffective. Nobody expects this.
On a different note, the difference between universities before 2000 and now is that there is much more competitiveness. You discuss comfy chairs, but on a much larger scale your same comments can be applied to dorms, food, etc. People say "why has college gotten so expensive?" There are multiple reasons, but one of them is the necessary investment to have benefits and comforts that are at least on par with other universities.
Quote from: crusadermoe on June 10, 2022, 12:19:55 PM
Is it just me or do today's VU students seem "over-lounged"?
The new library has about 12 fireplaces with comfy chairs etc. The new union seems flush with them too. Then the these old dorms ( which no longer serve food) have now inserted more soft comfy furniture in those spaces. I wonder what is the ratio between residential students and comfy chairs? Maybe a psychology student could study it.
I know sound like a grumpy old man. "In my day we didn't all stretch out across a sofa or big chair to do homework! ...We stayed for 18 hours while the lights turned off and on, got sores on our rear ends and splinters in our britches,....and we liked it!" Seriously, I used to hide in one of those "booths" in the Moellering library basement and just grind out paper that had to be done. It takes some willpower that isn't always served well by comfy couches, coffee bars, and play lists running through your mind. And we liked it!!
It's not only VU students. The expectations game for residence hall living has changed a lot since, well, the previous century of my day. It's the students-as-consumers model at play here, and to be sure many prospective students are comparing dorm living amenities in making their decisions.
In my not-so-humble opinion, these rising expectations have intersected directly with the influence of the US News rankings in informing student choice. It puts pressure on all schools to spend more money on bells & whistles. Which, unless you've got an Ivy League endowment fund, means plenty more demands on your fundraising priorities and annual budgets.
It also increases, directly or indirectly, tuition, room, and board costs. The money for those nice rooms and lounges has to come from somewhere, after all.
Mentions of Brandt Hall make me a tad nostalgic, fueled by memories of how the Brandt Hall cafeteria would become a makeshift, late-night study hall after the dinner service was completed. Thanks to my procrastinatory nature, a lot of near-all nighters were spent there working on term papers late in the semester!
The last 3 comments were outstanding and align with my recent recruiting visits with my daughter. Regarding dorm ammenities, that is of big importance to students today. Being the old engineering fart that I am, I would think academic curriculum, lab and comport needs are high on my list.
One area that in my opinion is of critical importance is a decent accessible fitness center as well as possible classes for aerobics, strength and wellness. As a country physical and mental health has decline and an investment here would enable student success in the near and long term.
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 11, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
One area that in my opinion is of critical importance is a decent accessible fitness center as well as possible classes for aerobics, strength and wellness. As a country physical and mental health has decline and an investment here would enable student success in the near and long term.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqKb1x1_g7s
I am an idiot.
vu72 - Thanks for posting the brief videos.
Regarding the student rec center, you can see the issue of competition versus other universities. I look at that video and think that it looks fine (thus at parity versus competition). But some universities in which Valpo competes for students have a track, a pool in the same building, locker rooms (Valpo may have that - it was just not in the video and I know that building is pretty small), basketball courts and/or courts for other sports (few would have all of these). When universities need facilities with many of those amenities to compete, it drives up cost....which universities attempt to regain through tuition (though, again, there are also other reasons for ever rising tuition).
Yes, the old bookstore as a fitness center is a good interim step.
As another piece, maybe there are aerobic excercise machines in the old dorm cafeterias? if not, that seems like a natural way to help out the early riser morning workout types who might not want to brave 530am winter car scraping to get there or walk that far. You could put in some nice space with frosted windows etc. to pick up the window light.
No free weights,......just treadmills, elipticals with TVs etc. Where there's a will there's a way. Is there a will somewhere to augment the comfy chairs?
I know when I was there cardio equipment was in the dorms but then we didn't have a rec center so maybe that all moved out. I know they also use ARC space for classes and such. I'm not sure how much of an upgrade we would need outside of more space? or do we have enough space for the size of campus we have? Especially now with so many chain gyms that have memberships that travel
Quote from: crusadermoe on June 14, 2022, 09:41:41 AM
Yes, the old bookstore as a fitness center is a good interim step.
As another piece, maybe there are aerobic excercise machines in the old dorm cafeterias? if not, that seems like a natural way to help out the early riser morning workout types who might not want to brave 530am winter car scraping to get there or walk that far. You could put in some nice space with frosted windows etc. to pick up the window light.
No free weights,......just treadmills, elipticals with TVs etc. Where there's a will there's a way. Is there a will somewhere to augment the comfy chairs?
Moe, it is a good idea to put the machines in the old cafeteria spaces.
I would point out that the current fitness center is located in an old cafeteria. It was re-purposed to be the bookstore (maybe in the late 1990s?), then re-purposed to be the fitness center.
Quote from: crusadermoe on June 14, 2022, 09:41:41 AMYes, the old bookstore as a fitness center is a good interim step.
Actually, I believe it was formerly the cafeteria between Dau and Kreinheder. (probably way before your time!)
No free weights,......just treadmills, elipticals with TVs etc.
Um, you might want to look at the video one more time!
Valpo22, sent a PM a while back. Not sure if you check them, fyi.
Before we went down the rabbit trail of fitness equipment, we were curious about the enrollment forecast.
Head counts are usually announced early in September after the first couple of weeks of scrambling ends. Any bets on freshmen this fall vs. last year? I have no idea. Throwing a blind dart, I will take +25. I don't know if Vegas offers this.
+25 on the bet you didn't clarify and the line Vegas doesn't offer... or +25 more then the last count we had for this year? Or maybe +25 from last year?
I've heard similar to what we had last year in undergraduate and significantly above in graduate students.
It's that time of year when all the various enrollment speculation and rumor ceases to matter.
We won't know formally the number until a September census date. But you can bet admissions has a number of first year students (freshmen and transfer) estimated down to minus twenty by now.
Time will tell.
If the enrollment is down it isn't due to a lack of foreign students. A picture on Facebook this morning shows hundreds of international students.
Quote from: vu72 on August 18, 2022, 09:39:08 AM
If the enrollment is down it isn't due to a lack of foreign students. A picture on Facebook this morning shows hundreds of international students.
Foreign student enrollment at most schools has a long way to go in terms of recovery, and that includes VU. COVID, immigration/visa policy concerns & difficulties, and the political climate in the U.S. have all played roles here. On the latter two, I'm not trying to make a political point, merely acknowledging that perceptions abroad have made big dents in this regard.
And when you're talking about losing several hundred enrollments at a smaller university, it has an impact. I hope VU sees a bounce back on this, but it's an ongoing challenge.
I have heard that our international enrollment is higher than it has been in years, including prior to the pandemic, with most of that being in our graduate programs as our computer science programs are a big draw.
Yep, rumors like this will fly until the census day.
The U.S. News college ranking issue usually hits in early September too. It's weird that we moved into the "national universities" rank now in the US New rankings. For Valpo admissions and PR writers, it is harder to brag smoothly that we rank #298! (or whatever rank we get).
When we ranked #1 among midwest universities for many years in the late 70s and 80s that worked really well. For most of the next 40 years we were logically grouped with Bradley, Butler, Drake and we toggled back and forth at #2 through #6 in the midwest rankings.
Yes, but I loved being ranked against Arkansas and Oklahoma state and being ahead of them. Loved it.
Until they pass us......
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 19, 2022, 10:10:27 AM
Yep, rumors like this will fly until the census day.
The U.S. News college ranking issue usually hits in early September too. It's weird that we moved into the "national universities" rank now in the US New rankings. For Valpo admissions and PR writers, it is harder to brag smoothly that we rank #298! (or whatever rank we get).
When we ranked #1 among midwest universities for many years in the late 70s and 80s that worked really well. For most of the next 40 years we were logically grouped with Bradley, Butler, Drake and we toggled back and forth at #2 through #6 in the midwest rankings.
U.S. News did VU no favor by moving us from the regionally-based midwestern universities category into the national universities category. Bradley, Butler, and Drake are very solid, peer universities, good company to be in overall. To jostle for a higher place among strong schools like those sends a good message to very solid, promising high school students.
But we get lost in the crowd being in the middle of the pack among the national universities.
These damnable rankings have way too much power than they merit.
How Drake is ranked so high is beyond my understanding. It has been a school that kids attend with marginal HS performance. In Iowa, getting accepted at Iowa, Iowa State and UNI is more difficult than Drake.
Quote from: usc4valpo on August 21, 2022, 07:51:11 AM
How Drake is ranked so high is beyond my understanding. It has been a school that kids attend with marginal HS performance. In Iowa, getting accepted at Iowa, Iowa State and UNI is more difficult than Drake.
Quote from: David81 on August 20, 2022, 10:35:58 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 19, 2022, 10:10:27 AM
Yep, rumors like this will fly until the census day.
The U.S. News college ranking issue usually hits in early September too. It's weird that we moved into the "national universities" rank now in the US New rankings. For Valpo admissions and PR writers, it is harder to brag smoothly that we rank #298! (or whatever rank we get).
When we ranked #1 among midwest universities for many years in the late 70s and 80s that worked really well. For most of the next 40 years we were logically grouped with Bradley, Butler, Drake and we toggled back and forth at #2 through #6 in the midwest rankings.
U.S. News did VU no favor by moving us from the regionally-based midwestern universities category into the national universities category. Bradley, Butler, and Drake are very solid, peer universities, good company to be in overall. To jostle for a higher place among strong schools like those sends a good message to very solid, promising high school students.
But we get lost in the crowd being in the middle of the pack among the national universities.
These damnable rankings have way too much power than they merit.
Well, you keep crusading to get Valpo back to the Midwestern universities category. You will be like a tenacious dog, A beacon of light in the rankings game that helps Valpo blaze past the doubters.
Quote from: usc4valpo on August 21, 2022, 07:51:11 AM
How Drake is ranked so high is beyond my understanding. It has been a school that kids attend with marginal HS performance. In Iowa, getting accepted at Iowa, Iowa State and UNI is more difficult than Drake.
Compare Drake's admissions standards to VU's:
Drake: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/drake-university-1860/applying (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/drake-university-1860/applying)
VU: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/valparaiso-university-1842/applying (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/valparaiso-university-1842/applying)
I think Drake has raised its game over the years.
Quote from: vu72 on August 18, 2022, 09:39:08 AM
If the enrollment is down it isn't due to a lack of foreign students. A picture on Facebook this morning shows hundreds of international students.
Yes, though "hundreds" is an exaggeration, the university hopes final enrollment numbers will reveal more new international students this semester than they have had since 2014. This is a positive and welcome development.
I have to question this data in general. First of all, less students are taking the SAT compared the ACT. Second, getting accepted at UNI is more difficult than Drake, where Drake is in more dire need to boost enrollment.
One thing about the data which blows me away is the scattering of data points.
Quote from: usc4valpo on August 23, 2022, 10:33:02 AM
I have to question this data in general. First of all, less students are taking the SAT compared the ACT. Second, getting accepted at UNI is more difficult than Drake, where Drake is in more dire need to boost enrollment.
One thing about the data which blows me away is the scattering of data points.
One must assume that any school/academic unit subject to the US News rankings is trying to tweak its data to look as strong as possible, without crossing a line that can get you suspended from the rankings if caught -- and some have been caught. I know of no other set of metrics that are looked at as closely by institutions of higher learning.
There are hundreds of international students. Almost 150 new, in fact. Most of those are IT students from Hyderabad, India.
I found out something this week that may send a shock through some of you. Nearly one third of all the pre-med majors at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland which mostly are involved in the University Hospitals/Cleveland Clinic/CWRU Medical School system are of Indian descent and at least half are not Americans with about half having a first language other than English. Although a majority understand English.
Quote from: valpo tundra on August 25, 2022, 11:53:37 PM
There are hundreds of international students. Almost 150 new, in fact. Most of those are IT students from Hyderabad, India.
Yes, I knew the official number, which is why I wrote that "hundreds" is an "exaggeration." It still is since that implies plural of a hundred, meaning at least two hundred. Yet, as I said, "this is a positive and welcome development."
President Padilla's short welcome back video. It's got humor and heart quality. It shows a guy willing to put himself out there in a way that's both funny and serious. And especially for folks on this board, it shows an engagement with VU sports. I like it. :)
https://youtu.be/ADbajCG4sE4 (https://youtu.be/ADbajCG4sE4)
historyman - not a surprise at all.
Quote from: valpopal on August 26, 2022, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: valpo tundra on August 25, 2022, 11:53:37 PM
There are hundreds of international students. Almost 150 new, in fact. Most of those are IT students from Hyderabad, India.
Yes, I knew the official number, which is why I wrote that "hundreds" is an "exaggeration." It still is since that implies plural of a hundred, meaning at least two hundred. Yet, as I said, "this is a positive and welcome development."
Are these 150 IT students on campus or are they remote?
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 26, 2022, 10:31:52 AM
Quote from: valpopal on August 26, 2022, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: valpo tundra on August 25, 2022, 11:53:37 PM
There are hundreds of international students. Almost 150 new, in fact. Most of those are IT students from Hyderabad, India.
Yes, I knew the official number, which is why I wrote that "hundreds" is an "exaggeration." It still is since that implies plural of a hundred, meaning at least two hundred. Yet, as I said, "this is a positive and welcome development."
Are these 150 IT students on campus or are they remote?
They are on campus.
Quote from: valpopal on August 26, 2022, 11:01:43 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 26, 2022, 10:31:52 AM
Quote from: valpopal on August 26, 2022, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: valpo tundra on August 25, 2022, 11:53:37 PM
There are hundreds of international students. Almost 150 new, in fact. Most of those are IT students from Hyderabad, India.
Yes, I knew the official number, which is why I wrote that "hundreds" is an "exaggeration." It still is since that implies plural of a hundred, meaning at least two hundred. Yet, as I said, "this is a positive and welcome development."
Are these 150 IT students on campus or are they remote?
They are on campus.
Wow! Kudos to the people at Valpo who made that creative idea happen. I do hope that they also realized that these students will need some additional support systems.
They've always had this program or something similar but due to visa issues and then COIVD it was probably shuttered for a few years.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on August 26, 2022, 03:12:33 PM
They've always had this program or something similar but due to visa issues and then COIVD it was probably shuttered for a few years.
But unless I missed something (and that is always possible), Valpo never had 150 students from a single area in one country.
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 26, 2022, 03:36:25 PM
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on August 26, 2022, 03:12:33 PM
They've always had this program or something similar but due to visa issues and then COIVD it was probably shuttered for a few years.
But unless I missed something (and that is always possible), Valpo never had 150 students from a single area in one country.
Let me clarify a bit. Valpo Tundra mentioned that "most" of the international students were IT students from Hyderabad, India. I can't provide that exact number, maybe he can. However, the total of 150+ international students also includes those from a number of other countries and in various fields.
When was a statue of Homeless Jesus put on the campus?
Quote from: valpotx on August 26, 2022, 04:25:53 PM
When was a statue of Homeless Jesus put on the campus?
June 19, 2015
One of the most important numbers for the 2022-23 school year is 605 new undergraduate students.
I just looked back at a Valpo2022 post. Surprising numbers.
Roughly:
7.5 % Lutherans (all types)
10% Catholic
10% Baptist and non-denom
Equals:27.5% of total students "identify" as one of those Christian groups?
So the other 72.5% consists of.whom?
The numbers seem way off the mark........hopefully.
Likely some mainline Protestants in there, but these numbers don't seem far off from what would be expected for non-religious identifying Gen Z. If they asked for atheist/agnostic or none that would be a high percentage.
Quote from: crusadermoe on September 12, 2022, 07:30:57 PM
I just looked back at a Valpo2022 post. Surprising numbers.
Roughly:
7.5 % Lutherans (all types)
10% Catholic
10% Baptist and non-denom
Equals:27.5% of total students "identify" as one of those Christian groups?
So the other 72.5% consists of.whom?
The numbers seem way off the mark........hopefully.
Not sure what number he was looking at the these show Romans at 16.19 and Lutherans (all branches) at 11.5. The balance is spread out all over the place but the biggest number is the 34.68% who either left it blank or didn't answer.
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/Denominations_All_Students_FA22.pdf
I can't believe a year has flown by. I think FAFSAs are due around this time of year. So you probably know your applicants number vs. past year and prior one.
The new VP hire sounds like a great one. I wonder how steep a hill she has inherited. Hopefully we are on an uptick.
Enrollment forecasts for fall 2023 are awfully quiet. They must have year-over-year data. And no news usually isn't good news. Moody's has cited it as a major, even pivotal factor.
From what I know it's tracking above where we were last year however that was happening last year too and it hit a stall so I think there's some reluctance to say anything until they get on the other side of FAFSA and "signing day"
Last year had its oddities in that applications were up a good amount but we didn't get the same enrollment increase.
My info was related to deposits no applications so not sure where they are tracking in comparison. I feel like there was maybe too much optimism coming out last year and people ended up with egg on their face when the final numbers hit.
Quote from: crusader05 on March 06, 2023, 06:49:04 PM
My info was related to deposits no applications so not sure where they are tracking in comparison. I feel like there was maybe too much optimism coming out last year and people ended up with egg on their face when the final numbers hit.
And now, we have a new VP of Enrollment.
Quote from: valpo95 on March 07, 2023, 07:52:35 AM
Quote from: crusader05 on March 06, 2023, 06:49:04 PM
My info was related to deposits no applications so not sure where they are tracking in comparison. I feel like there was maybe too much optimism coming out last year and people ended up with egg on their face when the final numbers hit.
And now, we have a new VP of Enrollment.
I hope she's the right person, but a mid-year arrival makes it hard for her to have a positive influence on numbers this year. But hopefully it means she's much further ahead in planning for the next cycle.
Absolutely, she can only affect Fall 2024 at this point. It seems like any rush to band-aid fall 2023 cuts into a full effort for fall 2024. But then again we don't know the forecast she inherited and it might be a triage.
Quote from: vu72 on September 12, 2022, 07:52:28 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on September 12, 2022, 07:30:57 PM
I just looked back at a Valpo2022 post. Surprising numbers.
Roughly:
7.5 % Lutherans (all types)
10% Catholic
10% Baptist and non-denom
Equals:27.5% of total students "identify" as one of those Christian groups?
So the other 72.5% consists of.whom?
The numbers seem way off the mark........hopefully.
Not sure what number he was looking at the these show Romans at 16.19 and Lutherans (all branches) at 11.5. The balance is spread out all over the place but the biggest number is the 34.68% who either left it blank or didn't answer.
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/Denominations_All_Students_FA22.pdf
The American National Family Life Survey identifies Gen Z as having the lowest share of religious affiliation among all current generations in America:
White Evangelical Protestant (9%)
White Mainline Protestant (12%)
Black Protestant (9%)
White Catholic (5%)
Hispanic Catholic (3%)
Other/Non-White Christian (18%)
Major Non-Christian Religions (7%)
Unaffiliated (34%)
The unaffiliated figure probably includes the 9% who are atheists and the 9% who are agnostic.
This link includes a chart comparing religious affiliation by generation.
https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/ (https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/)
This is among the reasons why I've suggested that VU has to find the right message that creates a bigger tent without abandoning its traditional constituencies and mission. My recommendation has been to emphasize
values, as that creates room for many different perspectives and beliefs, without trying to egg on current culture wars that are getting tiresome and predictable. For some, it can be a connection or path to faith.
Quote from: David81 on March 12, 2023, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: vu72 on September 12, 2022, 07:52:28 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on September 12, 2022, 07:30:57 PM
I just looked back at a Valpo2022 post. Surprising numbers.
Roughly:
7.5 % Lutherans (all types)
10% Catholic
10% Baptist and non-denom
Equals:27.5% of total students "identify" as one of those Christian groups?
So the other 72.5% consists of.whom?
The numbers seem way off the mark........hopefully.
Not sure what number he was looking at the these show Romans at 16.19 and Lutherans (all branches) at 11.5. The balance is spread out all over the place but the biggest number is the 34.68% who either left it blank or didn't answer.
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/Denominations_All_Students_FA22.pdf
The American National Family Life Survey identifies Gen Z as having the lowest share of religious affiliation among all current generations in America:
White Evangelical Protestant (9%)
White Mainline Protestant (12%)
Black Protestant (9%)
White Catholic (5%)
Hispanic Catholic (3%)
Other/Non-White Christian (18%)
Major Non-Christian Religions (7%)
Unaffiliated (34%)
The unaffiliated figure probably includes the 9% who are atheists and the 9% who are agnostic.
This link includes a chart comparing religious affiliation by generation.
https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/ (https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/)
This is among the reasons why I've suggested that VU has to find the right message that creates a bigger tent without abandoning its traditional constituencies and mission. My recommendation has been to emphasize values, as that creates room for many different perspectives and beliefs, without trying to egg on current culture wars that are getting tiresome and predictable. For some, it can be a connection or path to faith.
I've been saying this for years now. Each generation becomes less religious than the previous generation. It won't be long before more than 50% of the US is considered non-religious. Movements like those touting Christian Nationalism or putting religion into public school systems, will only further that pace away from religion, as the youngest generation does not view such things positively.
Reasonable points.
I hope that the trend changes or is exaggerated somehow. If not, you are saying Valpo needs to change to conform to the realities of the market. A business would do that because it's only purpose for existence is to make a profit. It's an existential question.
I don't think Valpo necesaarily needs to change but it needs to realize the religious angle may not be as big of a draw as it once was (although if smaller lutheran colleges continue to struggle, it might benefit from being the only one left to serve a smaller pool)
But we do need to figure out how to integrate who we are and make sure non-religiously identified students see the benefit in our values. Lots of Catholic Universities have learned how to keep their Catholic identity and ethos while offering a lot more to others.
In all fairness to Valpo, I think it is harder for Valpo to figure out this Christian-yet-wider identity when Lutheranism is a pretty narrow demographic. In a way, the Catholic universities are starting from an easier place, being more able to pitch themselves to some of the growing or religiously fervent immigrant communities like Latin American/ Latino/a Catholics and African international and African American Catholics. We still have pretty strong support to from the Filipino Catholic and Vietnamese Catholic worlds. BUt the Lutheran colleges do not have many significant student demographic pools to tap into beyond the mostly declining white American and white European Lutheran populations. This is not to diss the Lutheran Church as such, since honestly the white American Catholic birthrate and observant population is dropping just as fast as the white mainline protestants, so the small Catholic colleges that used to rely on those populations are hurting too! It is just a reality of whether the church-affiliated institutions have some *other* demographic pocket or immigration dynamic that can help offset the decline in the historically white-serving US churches and universities, or not, and whether they can then navigate the identity issues of Catholic-yet-global, religious-yet-relevant to the world. So yes, maybe are ways in which the Catholic unis may be navigating this better or more easily through a stronger sense of distinctive identity or thanks to demographic relief or support from the global and immigrant Church.
But there are also ways in which the story is much the same, that schools with small endowments and waffling academic or sports notoriety are struggling and at risk of going under as enrollment drops. Whereas the rich Catholic schools with large endowments and notable academic & sports reputations are seeing ever more applicants. It is a sobering kind of snowball effect with the wealthy universities getting wealthier and the struggling universities getting closer to the edge. There have already been some small Catholic uni closures, and there could be more.
IMO, the really interesting and mostly untapped demographic is actually the charismatics/pentecostals, who are growing like gangbusters all over the world including in the US and don't have any high school or university systems of their own. They tend to be highly diverse (white, asian, Black, latino/a, everythingyou can imagine) yet not particularly interested in identity politics. Since most are from lower-economic minority communities, these immigrant Christian communities have historically attended public & community college options, just assuming that private education is out of their reach. I think it will be interesting to see if either the mainline Protestant or the flagship Catholic universities can become the 'go to' place for this growign populations of often very religious students. At WashU, I had a Brazilian-American Assemblies of God friend on full-tuition merit scholarship actually left and gave up her scholarship just because she felt out of place at such a secular private research university and opted to go back home to study somewhere nearer her family and Assemblies of God pentecostal home church in Texas. And you sometimes meet Filipino 'El Shaddai' type charismatic Catholic students who want a religious university so don't fit into the big state schools or private R1s.... but also don't fit into either the really traditionalist 'classical Western' Catholic universities nor into the more liberal/secularizing Catholic universities. So there are religious students out there, who do want higher ed but struggle to find where they fit.
Interesting demographic. It's good to think outside the box. I would not have lined them up with Valpo.
An easier group to reach might be the suburban evangelicals in the Chicago and Indy areas. They would obviously be Wheaton or Hope candidates. But Valpo has engineering and D-1 sports, And Valpo doesn't have the strict codes and curfews etc.
The rub there is that Valpo has been drifting pretty steadily for decades into the liberal side of the larger protestant church and then Heckler led them in a sprint! So today's Valpo might not be welcoming to students and parents with an evangelical outlook. That of course touches the whole issue of Valpo's roots again and how it interprets them.
https://www.uppermichiganssource.com/2023/03/02/finlandia-university-end-operations-not-enroll-students-2023-2024-academic-year/?outputType=amp
Announced three weeks ago but haven't seen a post here. Finlandia is/was a private lutheran university in the UP of Michigan that is now closing. Looks like they recently held a transfer fair... Valpo was not one of the 25 schools there although no "peer" schools were either. Ideally I'd hope we pursue getting/buying admissions data since it's a lutheran school in the Midwest.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on March 21, 2023, 02:38:09 PM
https://www.uppermichiganssource.com/2023/03/02/finlandia-university-end-operations-not-enroll-students-2023-2024-academic-year/?outputType=amp
Announced three weeks ago but haven't seen a post here. Finlandia is/was a private lutheran university in the UP of Michigan that is now closing. Looks like they recently held a transfer fair... Valpo was not one of the 25 schools there although no "peer" schools were either. Ideally I'd hope we pursue getting/buying admissions data since it's a lutheran school in the Midwest.
Unless there's some justifiable backstory, this should be regarded as a genuine, lost opportunity. And while the buzzards circling imagery of schools looking to pick up students about to be orphaned by their school may appear unseemly, in VU's case it's an appropriate outreach to invite students who opted for another Lutheran college to apply for transfer. Am I missing something here?????
Quote from: David81 on March 21, 2023, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on March 21, 2023, 02:38:09 PM
https://www.uppermichiganssource.com/2023/03/02/finlandia-university-end-operations-not-enroll-students-2023-2024-academic-year/?outputType=amp
Announced three weeks ago but haven't seen a post here. Finlandia is/was a private lutheran university in the UP of Michigan that is now closing. Looks like they recently held a transfer fair... Valpo was not one of the 25 schools there although no "peer" schools were either. Ideally I'd hope we pursue getting/buying admissions data since it's a lutheran school in the Midwest.
Unless there's some justifiable backstory, this should be regarded as a genuine, lost opportunity. And while the buzzards circling imagery of schools looking to pick up students about to be orphaned by their school may appear unseemly, in VU's case it's an appropriate outreach to invite students who opted for another Lutheran college to apply for transfer. Am I missing something here?????
Some might argue, but Valpo is lightly referred to as Lutheran these days. They don't follow much Lutheran doctrine. They have a catholic president. Any church service is geared to the masses. I would say they are more of a Christian School. A true Lutheran school is Concordia.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Valpo1993 on March 21, 2023, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: David81 on March 21, 2023, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on March 21, 2023, 02:38:09 PM
https://www.uppermichiganssource.com/2023/03/02/finlandia-university-end-operations-not-enroll-students-2023-2024-academic-year/?outputType=amp
Announced three weeks ago but haven't seen a post here. Finlandia is/was a private lutheran university in the UP of Michigan that is now closing. Looks like they recently held a transfer fair... Valpo was not one of the 25 schools there although no "peer" schools were either. Ideally I'd hope we pursue getting/buying admissions data since it's a lutheran school in the Midwest.
Unless there's some justifiable backstory, this should be regarded as a genuine, lost opportunity. And while the buzzards circling imagery of schools looking to pick up students about to be orphaned by their school may appear unseemly, in VU's case it's an appropriate outreach to invite students who opted for another Lutheran college to apply for transfer. Am I missing something here?????
Some might argue, but Valpo is lightly referred to as Lutheran these days. They don't follow much Lutheran doctrine. They have a catholic president. Any church service is geared to the masses. I would say they are more of a Christian School. A true Lutheran school is Concordia.
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That's exactly why it's a lost opportunity to recover the Lutheran share of the student body. If smaller Lutheran schools are closing their doors, then VU -- even as a more cosmopolitan institution -- still has a welcoming space for them.
Finlandia attracts a different demo. Tuition is $24,500. Nonetheless, this stone should not be left unturned.
Ten college graduates reflecting on college regrets, resonating with some of the topics we've discussed here. Long url because it's a freely accessible link:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/27/opinion/college-choice-regrets.html?unlocked_article_code=TbjARc_skx07C_lWxqiZk7uSByY_BvM9JIDT0RYVkfuFsAWSwOZf2XZMsMQooQZf5-V86k9cLXIalGtcRhuaVAa4NTXy9N-_VLBxf0D4_jauT1Gr4mzPeTrTWDUzf0_M4RUD_9pMSBl5ZUE4n9O7t8mq9pSHyEELK38p88eTowzQymElnJcMXAIaso8BmluDPrWRJqDf5nGsLUk7U006uT0NKGGvPF9iwtTz-TXVML8bxwctwcxPZ5zYG9U47O6D07BLu9Q4k6eJ0Jukr_Jk3jdpBSamH-mSnWBy1OGEwXaAM2g8MF2yidMRfx0uSNuNPM9crAiroxE01HLIpQFJRAs3f9I01hhwQARHouLWrwhV&smid=url-share (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/27/opinion/college-choice-regrets.html?unlocked_article_code=TbjARc_skx07C_lWxqiZk7uSByY_BvM9JIDT0RYVkfuFsAWSwOZf2XZMsMQooQZf5-V86k9cLXIalGtcRhuaVAa4NTXy9N-_VLBxf0D4_jauT1Gr4mzPeTrTWDUzf0_M4RUD_9pMSBl5ZUE4n9O7t8mq9pSHyEELK38p88eTowzQymElnJcMXAIaso8BmluDPrWRJqDf5nGsLUk7U006uT0NKGGvPF9iwtTz-TXVML8bxwctwcxPZ5zYG9U47O6D07BLu9Q4k6eJ0Jukr_Jk3jdpBSamH-mSnWBy1OGEwXaAM2g8MF2yidMRfx0uSNuNPM9crAiroxE01HLIpQFJRAs3f9I01hhwQARHouLWrwhV&smid=url-share)
Haven't taken time to read. But boy I hope our applicant & deposit numbers are solid year over year. Moody's is watching.
Quote from: David81 on March 27, 2023, 04:34:10 PM
Ten college graduates reflecting on college regrets, resonating with some of the topics we've discussed here. Long url because it's a freely accessible link:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/27/opinion/college-choice-regrets.html?unlocked_article_code=TbjARc_skx07C_lWxqiZk7uSByY_BvM9JIDT0RYVkfuFsAWSwOZf2XZMsMQooQZf5-V86k9cLXIalGtcRhuaVAa4NTXy9N-_VLBxf0D4_jauT1Gr4mzPeTrTWDUzf0_M4RUD_9pMSBl5ZUE4n9O7t8mq9pSHyEELK38p88eTowzQymElnJcMXAIaso8BmluDPrWRJqDf5nGsLUk7U006uT0NKGGvPF9iwtTz-TXVML8bxwctwcxPZ5zYG9U47O6D07BLu9Q4k6eJ0Jukr_Jk3jdpBSamH-mSnWBy1OGEwXaAM2g8MF2yidMRfx0uSNuNPM9crAiroxE01HLIpQFJRAs3f9I01hhwQARHouLWrwhV&smid=url-share (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/27/opinion/college-choice-regrets.html?unlocked_article_code=TbjARc_skx07C_lWxqiZk7uSByY_BvM9JIDT0RYVkfuFsAWSwOZf2XZMsMQooQZf5-V86k9cLXIalGtcRhuaVAa4NTXy9N-_VLBxf0D4_jauT1Gr4mzPeTrTWDUzf0_M4RUD_9pMSBl5ZUE4n9O7t8mq9pSHyEELK38p88eTowzQymElnJcMXAIaso8BmluDPrWRJqDf5nGsLUk7U006uT0NKGGvPF9iwtTz-TXVML8bxwctwcxPZ5zYG9U47O6D07BLu9Q4k6eJ0Jukr_Jk3jdpBSamH-mSnWBy1OGEwXaAM2g8MF2yidMRfx0uSNuNPM9crAiroxE01HLIpQFJRAs3f9I01hhwQARHouLWrwhV&smid=url-share)
Thanks for the post. Interesting views by the 10 interviewees. All but one, I think, graduated around 2000-2010. Things have changed since then, but some have not. What I was hoping to read were comments about facilities desires and balance twixt A&S and professions. Nothing on facilities. There was one who spoke about too much A&S electives that underprepared them for a more math-intensive future. But the primary theme was student debt and how it contorts graduates' futures. Big problem. I really feel for those who are so burdened. I wish I had an answer.
Wartburg, another Lutheran college, was among those in agreement to accept Finlandia students. For what it's worth, Finlandia's endowment was a whopping $5.8 million.
Wartburg is an excellent college.
Gosh I agree with USCValpo. I just read the NY Times article citing "hindsight" regrets of a sample group of students. The debt burdens are utter tragedy. I truly feel awful for these kids. What awful regrets.
On the other hand I wonder what the hell the parents were thinking!!! The kids can only max out the government loans at $27,000 independently without parental sign off. How could they do that? Did they show the kid his future monthly payments and point out housing, car, insurance, and utilites alone? My wife and I paid off over $27,000 in combined loans over 15 years. It's a 2nd mortgage. So those debts at $40,000+ for singles are tragic. I can't fathom $100,000 other than for medical school.
So I took each of my two kids aside in their HS senior year and advised them not to max theirs. I said I would bay half of the state U. cost of $10-12,000 per year and said they could go from there with any earned scholarships and part-time jobs plus summer. i said I do advise not taking the max because of X payments. I am so proud of them. Their debts on four year graduation are $8,500 and $10,500.
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 29, 2023, 10:20:03 AM
Wartburg is an excellent college.
Burgs and all, or was it Warts and all?
Quote from: crusadermoe on March 28, 2023, 06:21:01 PM
Haven't taken time to read. But boy I hope our applicant & deposit numbers are solid year over year. Moody's is watching.
Too soon to be conclusive since college decision day is about one month away and changes in trends obviously can occur, but word is that the current year over year numbers for fall semester are positive.
Quote from: valpopal on March 29, 2023, 01:00:01 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on March 28, 2023, 06:21:01 PM
Haven't taken time to read. But boy I hope our applicant & deposit numbers are solid year over year. Moody's is watching.
Too soon to be conclusive since college decision day is about one month away and changes in trends obviously can occur, but word is that the current year over year numbers for fall semester are positive.
You know it just may be a case of ANY publicity is good publicity and the item in the NY Times put Valpo in a spotlight for a while and in the minds of some high school kids trying to make a decision. "Wow, man, that must be some school, they had a O'Keefe painting."
That would be great. Parents who know art probably have a high income. As we know the net tuition a freshman class pays is even more important to your budget than the number of students.
So if you are at CFO of Valpo you want to bring on the smart, artsy rich kids in lieu of the smart high discount kids! In our fluid world of multiple depositing parents it might be August before the freshmen revenue number lands.
Quote from: historyman on March 29, 2023, 01:30:29 PM
You know it just may be a case of ANY publicity is good publicity and the item in the NY Times put Valpo in a spotlight for a while and in the minds of some high school kids trying to make a decision. "Wow, man, that must be some school, they had a O'Keefe painting."
Gosh, ya think a good basketball team that gets national exposure might come close to an O'Keefe in drawing prospective students?
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 10, 2023, 05:36:01 PM
Quote from: historyman on March 29, 2023, 01:30:29 PM
You know it just may be a case of ANY publicity is good publicity and the item in the NY Times put Valpo in a spotlight for a while and in the minds of some high school kids trying to make a decision. "Wow, man, that must be some school, they had a O'Keefe painting."
Gosh, ya think a good basketball team that gets national exposure might come close to an O'Keefe in drawing prospective students?
Another truth. That opportunity is again gone for a while. Probably not forever but gone for the time being.
Quote from: valpopal on March 29, 2023, 01:00:01 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on March 28, 2023, 06:21:01 PM
Haven't taken time to read. But boy I hope our applicant & deposit numbers are solid year over year. Moody's is watching.
Too soon to be conclusive since college decision day is about one month away and changes in trends obviously can occur, but word is that the current year over year numbers for fall semester are positive.
We are still two weeks away from the crucial May 1 college decision day, but indicative signs continue to be positive compared to the past two years. I believe the mild weather around Valparaiso (first time ever I didn't use my snowblower for a whole winter) and a lessening of travel concerns due to Covid have increased on-campus visits, which usually lead to a higher percentage of enrollments, especially when the ground isn't covered with snow and ice.
Three college closures in the last month:
Iowa Wesleyan - Iowa - Methodist
Medaille - Buffalo, NY - Nonsectarian
Cardinal Stritch - WI - Catholic
*technically Medaille is a merger
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on April 27, 2023, 01:22:49 PM
Three college closures in the last month:
Iowa Wesleyan - Iowa - Methodist
Medaille - Buffalo, NY - Nonsectarian
Cardinal Stritch - WI - Catholic
*technically Medaille is a merger
Iowa Wesleyan U -- small Methodist college, around over 180 years, reported 2021 endowment of $9.1m.
Medaille U -- small Catholic college, reported 2022 endowment of $1.2m, merging with Trocaire College.
Cardinal Stritch U -- small Catholic college, around almost 90 years, reported 2022 endowment of $16.1m.
Smaller, very under-financed private schools like these are among the more likely casualties in the run-up to, and aftermath of, the coming demographic cliff (2027) of traditional, college-age individuals.
I'm not suggesting that VU is in the clear. My guess is that a few schools like Valpo will also fail during the next decade. I think the more significant question is whether VU will be thriving or just hanging on during this time.
Indiana and Ohio have a ton of private colleges. Some are loaded up like Wabash, but I suspect Evansville and some of the smallest ones are concerned.
On my side of the woods, the Boston Globe just ran a piece, "Why the business of small colleges no longer adds up," documenting among other things very sharp enrollment declines in some of the area schools. My own university (Suffolk U. in downtown Boston) is listed among them, with a 27% total enrollment drop between 2011 and 2021.
With apologies for a possible paywall:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/28/metro/small-private-colleges-business-model/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/28/metro/small-private-colleges-business-model/)
At my university, some of these enrollment reductions were planned/semi-planned, such as the Law School enrollment dropping from about 1,800 to about 1,300. It helped that the Law School enrollment drop could be somewhat managed because of an aging faculty, many of whom accepted a buyout. But other units of the University were hit harder, requiring program closures, around 2015. A lot of faculty and programs simply disappeared during that time, as in "poof," here one year, gone the next.
Anyway, point is that the challenges facing Valpo are hardly unique.
I mean i'd say most small colleges have that in their history, including Valpo(they almost closed the nursing college at one point, and there's been so many iterations of different programs coming and going). There have always been ebbs and flows and pendulum swings across the board. A college like Valpo, which is not a large well known state institution/one of the more elite/well endowed schools, is going to be battered a lot by these things but is still in a way more secure position than a lot of other schools.
I think that you get from surviving to thriving partially by investing where it's important and stabilizing where you can. A combination of spending and saving and taking the time to fix foundational issues. I tend to think that salaries are a foundational issue but one that can only be addressed after we stabilize and start to build. The problem in these situations is the present decisions are not popular or fun to make but have to be done with more an eye on both immediate needs and way to address future needs.
IE the only way to really and truly get salaries up without cutting programs/positions to widen the pool is to increase enrollment. A lot of the things needed to do to increase enrollment require time or money. Neither of which we have a ton of and, as you see with the paintings, decisions to try to fix the immediate problem still lead to push back and more issues.
Quote from: David81 on April 29, 2023, 12:27:31 AM
On my side of the woods, the Boston Globe just ran a piece, "Why the business of small colleges no longer adds up," documenting among other things very sharp enrollment declines in some of the area schools. My own university (Suffolk U. in downtown Boston) is listed among them, with a 27% total enrollment drop between 2011 and 2021.
With apologies for a possible paywall:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/28/metro/small-private-colleges-business-model/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/28/metro/small-private-colleges-business-model/)
O
At my university, some of these enrollment reductions were planned/semi-planned, such as the Law School enrollment dropping from about 1,800 to about 1,300. It helped that the Law School enrollment drop could be somewhat managed because of an aging faculty, many of whom accepted a buyout. But other units of the University were hit harder, requiring program closures, around 2015. A lot of faculty and programs simply disappeared during that time, as in "poof," here one year, gone the next.
Anyway, point is that the challenges facing Valpo are hardly unique.
David, I checked the Globe article (no pay wall) and scoured the list of privates with solid endowments. Most weathered the decline storm and many actually grew. But I am very curious as to how Merrimack College, located in suburban Andover, MA, managed to >DOUBLE their enrollment from 2,400+ to 5,400+ in the face of everything that has been discussed. That growth ratio was the gist of Heckler's attempt to grow enrollment. Valpo failed, but Merrimack succeeded. Why? Was it something in the Andover water? Did someone in the admissions department take a magic pill?
BTW, Their endowment is $53 million. 2020-21 tuition and fees = ~$47K. They are D-I in athletics and belong to the Northeast Conference (NEC).
I focused on Merrimack because there are many similarities to Valpo. Could they be an appropriate model for Valpo to follow?
Schools with sizable endowments relative to their enrollment often offer generous financial aid packages to students. Valpo definitely fits that mold. Unfortunately, after applying every price advantage, we're still swimming in red ink to the tune of $1.3M per month. Thus, Valpo's problem isn't price per se, its value proposition relative to price. It seems that the strategic plan does a pretty good job of addressing value proposition, but many of the initiatives appear to be well down the road before the benefits kick in.
Quote from: valpo22 on April 29, 2023, 03:41:49 PMdoes anybody know about st. olaf's or why they seem to be stable enrollment wise?
Having lived in Minnesota for many years, I know several Ole grads. It is a quite different education model as they don't have professional schools and have a very large emphasis on music with several choirs, orchestras etc. They are Lutheran and information I have seen indicates they are about 25% Lutheran which is way better than Valpo. There location is prime for the Lutheran draw as Minnesota has about as many Lutherans as Catholics and it is an easy drive from the Twin Cities to St. Olaf. Their sizable endowment is obviously a plus as well.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 29, 2023, 12:04:27 PM
Quote from: David81 on April 29, 2023, 12:27:31 AM
On my side of the woods, the Boston Globe just ran a piece, "Why the business of small colleges no longer adds up," documenting among other things very sharp enrollment declines in some of the area schools. My own university (Suffolk U. in downtown Boston) is listed among them, with a 27% total enrollment drop between 2011 and 2021.
With apologies for a possible paywall:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/28/metro/small-private-colleges-business-model/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/28/metro/small-private-colleges-business-model/)
O
At my university, some of these enrollment reductions were planned/semi-planned, such as the Law School enrollment dropping from about 1,800 to about 1,300. It helped that the Law School enrollment drop could be somewhat managed because of an aging faculty, many of whom accepted a buyout. But other units of the University were hit harder, requiring program closures, around 2015. A lot of faculty and programs simply disappeared during that time, as in "poof," here one year, gone the next.
Anyway, point is that the challenges facing Valpo are hardly unique.
David, I checked the Globe article (no pay wall) and scoured the list of privates with solid endowments. Most weathered the decline storm and many actually grew. But I am very curious as to how Merrimack College, located in suburban Andover, MA, managed to >DOUBLE their enrollment from 2,400+ to 5,400+ in the face of everything that has been discussed. That growth ratio was the gist of Heckler's attempt to grow enrollment. Valpo failed, but Merrimack succeeded. Why? Was it something in the Andover water? Did someone in the admissions department take a magic pill?
BTW, Their endowment is $53 million. 2020-21 tuition and fees = ~$47K. They are D-I in athletics and belong to the Northeast Conference (NEC).
I focused on Merrimack because there are many similarities to Valpo. Could they be an appropriate model for Valpo to follow?
VULB#62, good catch, you're right that Merrimack College bears similarities to VU.
Although I'm not personally familiar with the reasons why Merrimack appears to be successful in growing its enrollment, I just lurked around their website, and read up on their strategic plan. Now, I'm not one to assume that strategic planning actually translates into anything meaningful. In higher ed, a lot of strategic planning is a combo of hot air + re-sorting the lawn furniture. That said, the Merrimack plan seems to be specific and coherent.
So folks, if you're curious, take a look at Merrimack's strategic plan:https://www.merrimack.edu/agenda-for-the-future/ (https://www.merrimack.edu/agenda-for-the-future/)
And then compare it to VU's:https://www.valpo.edu/uplift-valpo/ (https://www.valpo.edu/uplift-valpo/)
Merrimack's plan seems to be much more focused, relying less on fuzzy jargon, yes?
There's an obvious emphasis on building viable graduate programs and the professional programs. And, per earnest discussions on this board, it's interesting how Merrimack is treating the liberal arts, mentioning specific social science areas that are popular and successful. Alas, at Merrimack, too, the humanities appear to be taking it on the chin, although note that it uses STEAM (the "A" referring to Arts) and not STEM. And their commitment to Mission includes developing the whole person, including ethical and moral dimensions.
I'd say that VU would benefit by taking a look at their approach to handling the challenges faced by universities in this broad category.
I think one difference between private universities that are struggling or find a way to thrive and those that go under is the degree that the university offers and emphasizes professional programs. Merrimack offers majors in multiple areas of engineering, a rich array of business disciplines, nursing and more. Compare that with Cardinal Stritch who really only offered nursing and liberal arts. Regardless of the value that one places on liberal arts - and I do think liberal arts is important for a rich education - you cannot deny that prospective students and their families are far more likely to seek a degree that will directly lead to a well-paying job. This becomes even more acute for private colleges because of their higher tuition.
Many good points raised in the prior comments, but I will add one more. A big strategic issue for universities is transitioning the makeup of their faculty to be consistent with what students and their families seek. If this were to happen in a traditional business, a good company would retrain good people to work in the new/promising/growing business - moving them from the businesses that customers no longer choose to spend their money. Sadly, people who could not transition would need to be let go. Labor is far more of a fixed cost in a university and that is a real problem that is a bigger challenge for private universities (because less size means less room to adapt). You may really value the history professor who has been there for 20 years - he or she having made a great contribution, committed to the university values, etc. But you cannot retrain that professor to teach nursing or engineering. That may be fine if it were only one history professor, but for many small private colleges it is multiple professors in history, then multiple professors in each of a variety of other liberal arts disciplines. The university ends up with the costs from 30-40 people who are great people in their discipline, but their discipline does not fit what the customer wants.
After doing a quick scan of their website, it seems like Merrimack has overcome this problem, as they seem to have quite a bit of depth in their professional disciplines from tenured and tenure-track professors along with professors of practice (these are often full-time non-PhD faculty who often bring rich career experience in a specific area to the classroom/college).
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 29, 2023, 04:20:15 PM
Many good points raised in the prior comments, but I will add one more. A big strategic issue for universities is transitioning the makeup of their faculty to be consistent with what students and their families seek. If this were to happen in a traditional business, a good company would retrain good people to work in the new/promising/growing business - moving them from the businesses that customers no longer choose to spend their money. Sadly, people who could not transition would need to be let go. Labor is far more of a fixed cost in a university and that is a real problem that is a bigger challenge for private universities (because less size means less room to adapt). You may really value the history professor who has been there for 20 years - he or she having made a great contribution, committed to the university values, etc. But you cannot retrain that professor to teach nursing or engineering. That may be fine if it were only one history professor, but for many small private colleges it is multiple professors in history, then multiple professors in each of a variety of other liberal arts disciplines. The university ends up with the costs from 30-40 people who are great people in their discipline, but their discipline does not fit what the customer wants.
It appears that the Valpo's bloodletting of recent years has already sharply cut the number of faculty in the liberal arts. Many departments in the humanities and social sciences are about as lean staffed as you can get while still being able to service even a diminished number of majors in those disciplines and to teach distribution requirements for a larger number of students.
We may disagree on the degree to which higher education should be largely about "what the customer wants." When it comes to history, for example, I don't want to send future business executives, engineers, lawyers, or other professionals into the world who don't have an understanding of basic history. We're seeing the results of that ignorance over and again today, with folks of all different social and political viewpoints. So while I'm all for individual choice in what to major in, I also favor those majors being tethered to distribution requirements that ensure we are not turning out narrow-minded practitioners.
For now, at least, that's the value-added piece of studying the professions at VU. And for the exceptional students who truly get it, there aren't many places where, for example, you can get a first-rate engineering or nursing degree coupled with a first-rate liberal arts honors program via Christ College.
Quote from: David81 on April 29, 2023, 08:27:36 PMWe may disagree on the degree to which higher education should be largely about "what the customer wants." When it comes to history, for example, I don't want to send future business executives, engineers, lawyers, or other professionals into the world who don't have an understanding of basic history. We're seeing the results of that ignorance over and again today, with folks of all different social and political viewpoints. So while I'm all for individual choice in what to major in, I also favor those majors being tethered to distribution requirements that ensure we are not turning out narrow-minded practitioners.
⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
This!
When a college grad is stopped on the street this past December 7th and is asked on TV what they think about Pearl Harbor and they reply " Who's Pearl?" ya gotta worry for our future. Worse, when some of my HS age grandkids have little clue as to where most of the states of the union are located on a simple map, ya gotta worry for our future. And on and on....
But I ramble. Sorry.
We are in complete agreement that we want students to learn how to think, how to have perspective, and be open-minded practitioners. And we agree that liberal arts is a key part of this (though I often think people underestimate the ability of faculty in business, engineering, nursing, etc. to also foster this in their teaching).
The issue is this: how many students major in history or art or _______ versus how many students major in accounting, nursing, computer and electrical engineering, etc.? Then, how many courses does Valpo offer when there is a major versus how many courses does Valpo offer when there is a minor or no major/minor offered? My guess, for the first question, is that the ratio is enormously weighted to the practitioner disciplines. To the second question, then, it seems that the number of liberal arts major offerings (and, thus, courses) should be trimmed (and, yes, the number of liberal arts faculty gets trimmed over time via attrition). Why invest in the number of courses necessary for a major offering (required courses plus electives) if there are only 8 students in the university with that major? How many students are in the 300 and 400 level courses?
My point: focus liberal arts more towards what you suggest and less towards meeting the needs of the few students who wish to major in those disciplines. To accomplish this, Valpo does not need to have 70 history courses in its catalog, for which maybe 15-20 are offered in a given semester. It does still need Christ College because that program is very complementary to the practitioner disciplines.
Lastly, many businesses throughout history have failed because their decision-makers prioritized what they believed was good for their customers instead of prioritizing what customers wanted and were willing to spend money on.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 30, 2023, 09:25:11 AM
it seems that the number of liberal arts major offerings (and, thus, courses) should be trimmed (and, yes, the number of liberal arts faculty gets trimmed over time via attrition). Why invest in the number of courses necessary for a major offering (required courses plus electives) if there are only 8 students in the university with that major? How many students are in the 300 and 400 level courses?
My point: focus liberal arts more towards what you suggest and less towards meeting the needs of the few students who wish to major in those disciplines. To accomplish this, Valpo does not need to have 70 history courses in its catalog, for which maybe 15-20 are offered in a given semester.
I have no connection to the history department other than being friends with some of the past and present faculty; however, I happened to have a datavu link to the spring 23 semester bookmarked on my computer. History has a list of about 35 (undergraduate and graduate) courses in the catalog, half the 70 you mention. Also, during this semester only 6 history classes were offered (again a fraction of your estimate) taught by three faculty members and with an average of 23 students enrolled per class. In addition, the university has a general rule that if a department wants to add a course to the catalog, another course must be dropped. Finally, these faculty are teaching a 4-credit Core course as well, and all three are conducting numerous students in internships or individualized studies
pro bono since they receive no compensation for those projects.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 30, 2023, 09:25:11 AM
We are in complete agreement that we want students to learn how to think, how to have perspective, and be open-minded practitioners. And we agree that liberal arts is a key part of this (though I often think people underestimate the ability of faculty in business, engineering, nursing, etc. to also foster this in their teaching).
The issue is this: how many students major in history or art or _______ versus how many students major in accounting, nursing, computer electrical engineering, etc.? Then, how many courses does Valpo offer when there is a major versus how many courses does Valpo offer when there is a minor or no major/minor offered? My guess, for the first question, is that the ratio is enormously weighted to the practitioner disciplines. To the second question, then, it seems that the number of liberal arts major offerings (and, thus, courses) should be trimmed (and, yes, the number of liberal arts faculty gets trimmed over time via attrition). Why invest in the number of courses necessary for a major offering (required courses plus electives) if there are only 8 students in the university with that major? How many students are in the 300 and 400 level courses?
My point: focus liberal arts more towards what you suggest and less towards meeting the needs of the few students who wish to major in those disciplines. To accomplish this, Valpo does not need to have 70 history courses in its catalog, for which maybe 15-20 are offered in a given semester. It does still need Christ College because that program is very complementary to the practitioner disciplines.
Lastly, many businesses throughout history have failed because their decision-makers prioritized what they believed was good for their customers instead of prioritizing what customers want and are willing to spend money on.
But I disagree that the liberal arts curriculum should be primarily in service to business, nursing, and engineering. Rather, it serves dual purposes. First, on vocational value alone, many liberal arts majors are helpful towards employment on their own and/or are common paths to graduate and professional schools. Second, a good number of liberal arts disciplines still enroll a decent number of majors. Third, it's not just majors that count, but also minors. (E.g., VU has few Spanish majors but nearly 4 dozen minors.)
Indeed, if you study VU's own breakdown of majors and enrollment by school, then my oft-repeated point that the different schools of the University need each other to be successful becomes clearer. VU cannot survive as either a liberal arts college or a professional/technical college; enrollments in each of the major schools are rather modest on their own. Here's the breakdown, which I've posted before. (It does not appear to list Christ College, enrollment in which complements existing majors.)
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/major_minor_FA22_v2.pdf (https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/major_minor_FA22_v2.pdf)
Point being, it's likely that most of the liberal arts cuts you suggest have already been made, including waves of program closures and layoffs that left Arts & Sciences reeling. And especially to the people affected, I'd gently suggest that use of the term "trim" vastly understates the impact of that process. Make no doubt about it; this is a diminished university in the aftermath of those decisions.
Alright, so let me go to the heart of good strategic planning - you need to make decisions on where to invest which requires hard decisions on where not to invest. The problem that I have with these arguments is not the value of liberal arts, its that these arguments lead to excessive tradeoffs in budgeting decisions in which no groups get the funding necessary to be competitive. Let's say that new enrollment numbers for 2023-2024 are flat (or decline) from the prior year....where are you going to spend less? We can agree that costs from administration should be considered, but that won't balance the budget. But everyone "sharing the pain" is not strategic, it is just seeking compromise and "peace" in lieu of the pain from making hard decisions. And in difficult times, it increases the likelihood of the organization's demise because the high demand businesses lack sufficient resources to be competitive...the engine that drives revenue and margin shuts down.
And yes, this also ties back to the art sale. The President and the board made a hard choice that is consistent with core mission of the university...sell the art, fund infrastructure improvements to attract new students. A hard decision, but a necessary decision. The people who oppose the art sale offer no better solution...but are very happy to put the difficulty of finding a solution on the President and others, have no problem with it taking years for improvements to be competitive on infrastructure. They do not care about keeping the engine that drives revenue and margin going.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 30, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
And yes, this also ties back to the art sale. The President and the board made a hard choice that is consistent with core mission of the university...sell the art, fund infrastructure improvements to attract new students. A hard decision, but a necessary decision. The people who oppose the art sale offer no better solution...but are very happy to put the difficulty of finding a solution on the President and others, have no problem with it taking years for improvements to be competitive on infrastructure. They do not care about keeping the engine that drives revenue and margin going.
First, yes it is the job of the President and the Board to find funding solutions that preferably are deemed ethical, legal, and a benefit by all, and everyone supports this. However, let's put to bed the idea that no alternative solutions were posed by opponents of the art sale. When presented with possible alternatives by faculty in their meeting with him this semester, Padilla refused to engage in dialogue or consider options offered that did not include immediate funding by the end of spring semester so that renovation construction could begin in summer 2023.
He even objected to a possible idea floated of a short-term targeted fundraiser for $10 million. With the recent publicity and the desire by many alums and donors to keep intact the crowns of the museum collection, this could be feasible. (Indeed, had Padilla sought faculty input from the beginning of his plan last year, perhaps the short-term solution actually could have included enough funding by the end of this spring to begin renovations.) Instead, "I need the money now," he has stated. Nevertheless, lo and behold, if the art sale occurs, VU's representatives today declare the earliest it could happen would be the end of this year, which apparently would mean renovation starting in summer 2024. Padilla's timeline restriction and reason for not listening to suggested alternative paths has become invalid.
Quote from: valpopal on April 30, 2023, 01:59:21 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 30, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
And yes, this also ties back to the art sale. The President and the board made a hard choice that is consistent with core mission of the university...sell the art, fund infrastructure improvements to attract new students. A hard decision, but a necessary decision. The people who oppose the art sale offer no better solution...but are very happy to put the difficulty of finding a solution on the President and others, have no problem with it taking years for improvements to be competitive on infrastructure. They do not care about keeping the engine that drives revenue and margin going.
First, yes it is the job of the President and the Board to find funding solutions that preferably are deemed ethical, legal, and a benefit by all, and everyone supports this. However, let's put to bed the idea that no alternative solutions were posed by opponents of the art sale. When presented with possible alternatives by faculty in their meeting with him this semester, Padilla refused to engage in dialogue or consider options offered that did not include immediate funding by the end of spring semester so that renovation construction could begin in summer 2023.
He even objected to a possible idea floated of a short-term targeted fundraiser for $10 million. With the recent publicity and the desire by many alums and donors to keep intact the crowns of the museum collection, this could be feasible. (Indeed, had Padilla sought faculty input from the beginning of his plan last year, perhaps the short-term solution actually could have included enough funding by the end of this spring to begin renovations.) Instead, "I need the money now," he has stated. Nevertheless, lo and behold, if the art sale occurs, VU's representatives today declare the earliest it could happen would be the end of this year, which apparently would mean renovation starting in summer 2024. Padilla's timeline restriction and reason for not listening to suggested alternative paths has become invalid.
I understood your argument the first time you made it, and every time since. The only thing you have helped clarify along the way is your and your fellow faculty members' real problem - loss of power and control that you've lorded over the place in the name of "academic freedom." You're incensed and out for blood. President Padilla has become Padilla and the board you used to control has finally awakened to its true fiduciary responsibility to lead from ahead, not from behind.
Quote from: wh on April 30, 2023, 03:03:22 PM
You're incensed and out for blood.
As I did to a previous post by you, for the sake of comity, I will proceed again under the assumption your account has been hacked by someone with ill intent. ::)
Quote from: valpopal on April 30, 2023, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: wh on April 30, 2023, 03:03:22 PM
You're incensed and out for blood.
As I did to a previous post by you, for the sake of comity, I will proceed again under the assumption your account has been hacked by someone with ill intent. ::)
Don't underestimate the enemy you've created. No one wants to be remembered as being at the wheel when the ship goes down.
Valpopal, I'm not sure that I agree with the argument put forth above. If there isn't such a commotion over the art sale, perhaps construction does begin this spring instead of in 2024. It feels slightly like an unfair comparison to make, as people who have opposed the art sale have dragged their feet, slowing down the process for the university, and then pointed their finger at the university for the process being slow.... A more just criticism as you pointed out might be on Padilla for at least attempting some sort of alternative methods or being transparent and putting out statements like "we need x amount of money by this deadline or we will have to resort to downsizing the brauer collection for those funding as we need it immediately." However, I would counter that by saying that we need new dorms ASAP and funding takes time, and there are other projects that valpo needs like a new nursing building that donors will need to fund. At the end of the day, there just isn't enough donor funds for everything the university desperately needs tomorrow, hence the art sale.
Quote from: wh on April 30, 2023, 03:03:22 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 30, 2023, 01:59:21 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 30, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
And yes, this also ties back to the art sale. The President and the board made a hard choice that is consistent with core mission of the university...sell the art, fund infrastructure improvements to attract new students. A hard decision, but a necessary decision. The people who oppose the art sale offer no better solution...but are very happy to put the difficulty of finding a solution on the President and others, have no problem with it taking years for improvements to be competitive on infrastructure. They do not care about keeping the engine that drives revenue and margin going.
First, yes it is the job of the President and the Board to find funding solutions that preferably are deemed ethical, legal, and a benefit by all, and everyone supports this. However, let's put to bed the idea that no alternative solutions were posed by opponents of the art sale. When presented with possible alternatives by faculty in their meeting with him this semester, Padilla refused to engage in dialogue or consider options offered that did not include immediate funding by the end of spring semester so that renovation construction could begin in summer 2023.
He even objected to a possible idea floated of a short-term targeted fundraiser for $10 million. With the recent publicity and the desire by many alums and donors to keep intact the crowns of the museum collection, this could be feasible. (Indeed, had Padilla sought faculty input from the beginning of his plan last year, perhaps the short-term solution actually could have included enough funding by the end of this spring to begin renovations.) Instead, "I need the money now," he has stated. Nevertheless, lo and behold, if the art sale occurs, VU's representatives today declare the earliest it could happen would be the end of this year, which apparently would mean renovation starting in summer 2024. Padilla's timeline restriction and reason for not listening to suggested alternative paths has become invalid.
I understood your argument the first time you made it, and every time since. The only thing you have helped clarify along the way is your and your fellow faculty members' real problem - loss of power and control that you've lorded over the place in the name of "academic freedom." You're incensed and out for blood. President Padilla has become Padilla and the board you used to control has finally awakened to its true fiduciary responsibility to lead from ahead, not from behind.
wh, I know you have a lot of hostility towards faculty, but your reference to "loss of power and control that you've lorded over the place in the name of 'academic freedom'" sounds like a talk radio rant, as opposed to being an accurate description of a university faculty that has never been regarded as overly demanding or entitled. And as for the faculty controlling the board.....yikes, are you sure you're talking about the same university that pays full-time, tenure-track faculty $48-50k to start?
I mean, really, scolding someone here for writing "Padilla" instead of "President Padilla"? Heh, I'm guessing that you didn't always refer to "President Heckler." ;D
Quote from: VU2022 on April 30, 2023, 04:51:59 PM
Valpopal, I'm not sure that I agree with the argument put forth above. If there isn't such a commotion over the art sale, perhaps construction does begin this spring instead of in 2024. It feels slightly like an unfair comparison to make, as people who have opposed the art sale have dragged their feet, slowing down the process for the university, and then pointed their finger at the university for the process being slow....
I appreciate and fully understand this line of thinking, 2022; however, it raises a curious question. Pres. Padilla is not naive and he is not ignorant, especially about the history of restrictions in deaccessioning guidelines, which he enforced as General Counsel at DePaul, and his knowledge of unfortunate precedents in similar scenarios at other museums. So why did he not realize that the art sale proposal would be vigorously opposed by the new museum director, the namesake of the museum, the museum properties committee, the patrons of the museum, the art donors, the faculty, members of the law community, the national museum associations, VU students, art publications, the news media, and others?
Padilla couldn't keep this secret forever, and I predicted the sale would at least be delayed the minute the plan was uncovered and revealed. He should have known a schedule that completed the sale and attained funds by spring was obviously unrealistic amid such expected resistance, as has been seen elsewhere. Therefore, knowing the spring goal was tentative at best, he should have been more receptive to the idea of possible alternatives. Maybe with the spring deadline almost here and the art sale months away at a minimum, he and the Board will now consider exploring further options, some compromise that will supply support for renovation of the dorms without diminishment of the museum's prestige. I am still hopeful of such an outcome that could be a win for all.
valpopal - what you are suggesting is not a compromise regarding the art sale. The people opposed to the art sale give nothing in what you are stating....it is simply "we get what we want and President Padilla must find a way to move the university forward...but, of course, we must approve of how the university moved forward."
You and I strongly disagree on the art sale, but you seem like a smart and rationale person who cares about Valpo. So, let me pose a question to you. Why would a potential donor donate for the dorms (or any infrastructure) if the university intentionally chooses to not sell an asset that is not core the university's mission? If you think about it from the perspective of a potential donor who feels the art should be sold, you are effectively asking them to donate money to preserve the art. Over the years, we have made donations for a variety of things at Valpo - including infrastructure. But we never knew the university held highly valuable art (and our friends and the two of us are pretty close to Valpo). I and others will now clearly question donating for anything other than specific programs unless the art is sold.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 30, 2023, 08:45:25 PM
You and I strongly disagree on the art sale, but you seem like a smart and rationale person who cares about Valpo. So, let me pose a question to you. Why would a potential donor donate for the dorms (or any infrastructure) if the university intentionally chooses to not sell an asset that is core the university's mission? If you think about it from the perspective of a potential donor who feels the art should be sold, you are effectively asking them to donate money to preserve the art. Over the years, we have made donations for a variety of things at Valpo - including infrastructure. But we never knew the university held highly valuable art (and our friends and the two of us are pretty close to Valpo). I and others will now clearly question donating for anything other than specific programs unless the art is sold.
Thanks for the complimentary language. In response to your question, a person would want to donate for dorm renovations if it enhances the university experience as Pres. Padilla suggests it would. It would be a targeted donation, perhaps just like donating for a coaching change, that has no connection to the art museum. In addition, donating for the dorm renovations could be thought as a way of assuring the university museum's prestige and integrity are preserved, another enhancement about which the university boasts and which would appeal to some donors. Even among those with whom I have spoken who would consider supporting the art sale
if necessary, none has expressed a desire to lose the crown jewel paintings at the museum. Even if I thought it was ethical, I don't understand why anyone would
want to get rid of these prized pieces and diminish the museum (and by extension, the university) if another solution works. Finally, if you are concerned about donors, think also of those who donated the artwork or who might think of donating artwork in the future, and who feel the sale would be a betrayal that shows the university cannot be trusted.
The History Department numbers presented are skewed because of the present faculty situation. One veteran professor just retired with the buyout, another longtimer has been on sabbatical, yet another is teaching overseas, and the department hired two brand new professors less than two years ago.
valpopal - Thank you for the thoughtful response. Again, we strongly disagree about the art - but I do appreciate your perspective.
A few things to consider:
-The "problem" for Valpo is not how to get $10M for the dorms. The problem is getting $50M+ for the dorms, nursing building and other necessary infrastructure improvements. Thus, it is a fallacy to say "we found a way to raise $10M and thus it is an alternative solution to selling the art."
-(a point that I have previously raised) Look at the issue in a different way. Assume Valpo has $8M and needs to make a choice how to spend the money, and assume that Valpo does not currently own the art (but has an opportunity to buy the art). It is faced with two options: use the money to finance infrastructure needs or use the money to buy the art. Which option, based on the university's current situation, should the university pursue?
Ok it's May 1st need some good news
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 01, 2023, 08:52:02 AM
valpopal - Thank you for the thoughtful response. Again, we strongly disagree about the art - but I do appreciate your perspective.
A few things to consider:
-The "problem" for Valpo is not how to get $10M for the dorms. The problem is getting $50M+ for the dorms, nursing building and other necessary infrastructure improvements. Thus, it is a fallacy to say "we found a way to raise $10M and thus it is an alternative solution to selling the art."
-(a point that I have previously raised) Look at the issue in a different way. Assume Valpo has $8M and needs to make a choice how to spend the money, and assume that Valpo does not currently own the art (but has an opportunity to buy the art). It is faced with two options: use the money to finance infrastructure needs or use the money to buy the art. Which option, based on the university's current situation, should the university pursue?
As to the first point, would you also say that it is a fallacy when money is found to fund other projects—athletics, chapel improvements, engineering equipment—through alternative solutions to selling art? The real fallacy that has been introduced surrounding this ongoing discussion is that there is a binary decision: art or dorms.
The second point is based upon a misconception. The university does not purchase art. The art—including those the university wants to sell— has been bought through private funds donated by individuals or a group of patrons known as Friends of Art for exhibit at the university museum, which is the crux of the claim of an unethical sale. If you read the citation notes accompanying artworks at the museum or online, the donors who purchased the art for the museum are specifically recognized for each. I just clicked on all 39 permanent collection works available at the following link. Not one was bought with unspecified university funds. You can click on the arts displayed at the following page and check for yourself:
https://www.valpo.edu/brauer-museum-of-art/collection/ (https://www.valpo.edu/brauer-museum-of-art/collection/)
Is the Art Museum separately incorporated as a non-profit apart from the university? This seems really complicated. That seems like the crux of the legal issue.
This thread needs to get back on track. The topic is enrollment count. Today is the milestone day of May 1 so in a few days the estiamtes for 2023-2024 should start to sharped a bit. I can't remember why May 1 is a milestone but some on the board has said so.
I was reminded of something a couple days ago while reading yet another post about the art sale.
I was a member of the VU Alumni Board in the early 1990s. I knew even less then than I do now, which is saying something. But one night I got to sit next to President Harre at dinner. He had been president for maybe 3-4 years but was already feeling pressure to replace inadequate facilities.
President Harre (I admit I am a big fan, I think next to OP our best president) talked about the need/desire for a new library and a new union (the ARC was less than 10 years old at the time but even then there were murmurs of discontent). He acknowledged the library and union clearly needed to be replaced - but his top priority was a new art/music facility. His rationale: it was best for the university.
He made this happen and the building came to pass in, I think, 1993 - complete with an art museum that allowed folks to see and appreciate the university's substantial art collection.
It would be another 10 years for the library to come on line and 6 more years after that for the new union to open its doors. Think about what a tough decision that had to be for President Harre and the BOD.
Of course, we are still waiting for a new sports facility.
Maybe this little story doesn't mean anything, especially to those who strongly oppose the art sale. But to me it means the university supported the arts at a difficult time, even though it meant making a sacrifice by waiting many more years for other, badly-needed facilities to get built. Perhaps now it is time for those opposed to the art sale to make a similar sacrifice for the good of the university.
For those who think the current and, in today's culture anyway, inevitable legal struggle playing out in the courts will certainly be over in the coming year, a word of caution. I haven't followed this at all, but after the hearing the court will have to prepare a written decision. That could take months for the judge assigned to the case. After that there could be an appeal. If that happens, tack on at least 1 more year and probably two.
Paul
I have heard that the May 1st decision day isn't as big as it once was but still matters because there are some more elite universities who wait pretty late in the year to send out all their official acceptance/rejection letters. I think it might have something to do with locking in potential scholarship money but I'm not sure if that's true.
I also read an article, I can't remember where, that talked about the increased tendency for students to put down multiple deposits to hold aid and then not make their final decision until the summer. It means a whole lot more recruitment probably needs to continue for students up to the point they probably register for classes and then to make sure the actually show up in August
crusadermoe is correct. The first salient issue ultimately is who owns the art - and if the university owns the museum, then it owns the art. The second salient issue is whether there are terms that the university agreed to in writing that limit what can be done with the art. If you donate an asset to the university and have no contractually agreed terms for how that asset is used, then it is at the university's discretion what to do with the asset. 78crusader is also probably right that this could take a long time in the courts.
For enrollment decisions, May 1 is "a" big day - but in today's world June 1 is also a big day. It really comes down to commitment via deposits and then paying for the first semester.
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 01, 2023, 01:18:17 PM
crusadermoe is correct. The first salient issue ultimately is who owns the art - and if the university owns the museum, then it owns the art. The second salient issue is whether there are terms that the university agreed to in writing that limit what can be done with the art. If you donate an asset to the university and have no contractually agreed terms for how that asset is used, then it is at the university's discretion what to do with the asset. 78crusader is also probably right that this could take a long time in the courts.
Excellent summary, VU84v2, which reveals exactly where this situation stands. As I have conceded all along, Pres. Padilla's strategy to thwart academic ethical objections to the art sale was to bring a legal argument into play, which the university lawyers could most likely win on technical matters since past donors could not imagine the university violating their trust and using the art as revenue for dorm renovations, so almost assuredly did not have airtight restrictive language to prevent it. Padilla told this to the faculty at their meeting with him.
However, as 78crusader correctly indicates, the sticking point now ironically arises that a most vehement opponent of the art sale is a major university donor who also happens to be a former VU law professor. He basically said I will see your legal argument and raise it with my own that includes the state Attorney General as a defendant. This suit could thwart the university's legal action merely by its own legal tactic possibly causing an intolerably lengthy delay in any decision. A further irony is that the delay could be increased a little more by the presiding judge having to recuse himself because he is a VU law grad.
Quote from: 78crusader on May 01, 2023, 12:13:46 PMIt would be another 10 years for the library to come on line and 6 more years after that for the new union to open its doors. Think about what a tough decision that had to be for President Harre and the BOD.
Many have donated to VU over the years. 78crusader's post got me thinking about the Moellering family, whom I know, and the large donation they gave in 1956. Here is what O.P. said about their gift.
QuoteThe finest gift has come from Mrs. Henry F. Moellering of Fort Wayne, Indiana, who gave us $375,000 for the building of the Henry F. Moellering Memorial Library. I must say that this particular gift was the most moving and inspiring in our entire Lutheran history. The Moellering family has always been very close to the University, and this expression of confidence in our future meant even more to us than the intrinsic value of the gift and its importance for our academic development.
Moellering Library was less than 50 years old when it was razed. I will have to ask Michael how he felt when the building named after his Grandfather was bulldozed.
Will keeping the art bring in students, or will upgrading dorms?
The school needs students and the school really needs cash - now.
The idea that anyone who has worked on the campus in the last few years doesn't have any idea of where we are is baffling. This message board seems to understand the situation pretty well.
Also, you bring someone in at night because you're trying to figure out if it's even worth it to pursue while doing your due diligence. I think they knew this would be a tough decision which is why they wanted all their ducks in a row before they even made it: ie board approve, finding out how much renovations would cost, how much the paintings could get, etc etc. The idea that tough/unpopular decisions could have been done without blow back is wishful thinking. The reality is this would not have gone well if they had told people they were brining them in ahead of time because they protest to the sale of art in general.
Is there outward messages that everything is hunky dory though? A big part of what Padilla said when he came on campus was he was here to help Valpo get on it's feet. His whol "not here to oversee a wake" comment. Heckler was known for blowing smoke but it seems like Padilla hasn't been hiding from the fact that things are tough. A lot of articles about the university talked about demographic cliff and declining enrollment. To expect me to believe that a large portion of faculty and staff have no clue what is going on seems a stretch. I've been a company going through a tough time, even if your department didn't face cuts you know about other departments. It's hard to miss.
This is the Enrollment Numbers thread.
Based on a cursory look at annual headcounts over the past 10 years, budget deficits, debt load, etc., I think there is a strong case to be made that Valpo is in far more serious financial jeopardy than public perception would have us believe. After 4 consecutive years above 4000 students (excluding law), present enrollment has nosedived to 2950, a decline of nearly 30%. At this point, Valpo would need to increase enrollment by 800 to even balance an annual budget, not to mention start paying down debt, investing in new facilities, etc. Then consider that it's too soon to know whether enrollment decline has bottomed out. It could actually get worse. What reason is there to think otherwise? Where are the new attractive facilities and creature comforts that will turn some eyes? How about new, cutting edge, high value-add programs to promote? Or, expansive on-line learning options at reduced prices? You can't market a "new Valpo," when everything inside the pamphlet is the "old Valpo."
I don't envision a ghost town future of empty buildings with a faded Valpo sign identifying what once was, but I do envision different ownership. Mergers, acquisitions, consolidations, bankruptcies, etc. are all necessary for economic growth. It happened to automotive, banking, manufacturing, retail, healthcare, and myriad other verticals. It is going to happen to education.
Who actually owns the university and who would receive its sale proceeds? Just saying out loud the implication WH is raising.
Anything can happen in enrollment during the next few months; however, when considering total number of students—combining all colleges, undergraduate and graduate, freshmen and transfers—my best guess is that we should not expect any appreciable difference from last year when fall semester rolls around.
That's pretty horrible. No reason why you can't get an additional 100 students some way or the other
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 02, 2023, 04:32:32 PM
Who actually owns the university and who would receive its sale proceeds? Just saying out loud the implication WH is raising.
https://www.valpo.edu/about/leadership/board-of-directors-of-the-lutheran-university-association-inc-dba-valparaiso-university/
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 02, 2023, 04:32:32 PM
Who actually owns the university and who would receive its sale proceeds? Just saying out loud the implication WH is raising.
I imagine that it is a very similar arrangement as to what transpired when the Lutheran Hospital here in Fort Wayne was sold, since many of the same people/congregations were involved with setting up the Lutheran University Association. When the hospital was sold the money in essence went back to the founders forming a foundation which is controlled by area congregations. https://thelutheranfoundation.org/about-us/our-history (https://thelutheranfoundation.org/about-us/our-history)
https://thelutheranfoundation.org/about-us/congregations-and-delegates (https://thelutheranfoundation.org/about-us/congregations-and-delegates)
While the university has financial challenges that need to be urgently addressed - and increasing enrollment is a big part of addressing the financial situation - the university is not going to go under.
With the 30% decline in enrollment, are we the smallest D1 school?
Presbyterian College 1,200 (88mil endowment)
wollford 1,800 (378.8mil endowment)
Saint Francis University 2,000 (60mil endowment)
Davidson 2,000 (1.3 billion endowment)
Wagnor 2,100 (83 million endowment)
Holly Cross with 2950 (1.04 billion endowment) and also called the Crusaders
Valpo 3000 (225mil endowment) used to be called the crusaders
ORU 3,200 (45 mil endowment) lots of new buildings and basketball facilities in the last couple years.
Tulsa University 3,700 (1.36 billion endowment)
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 04, 2023, 12:54:33 PM
With the 30% decline in enrollment, are we the smallest D1 school?
Presbyterian College 1,200 (88mil endowment)
wollford 1,800 (378.8mil endowment)
Saint Francis University 2,000 (60mil endowment)
Davidson 2,000 (1.3 billion endowment)
Wagnor 2,100 (83 million endowment)
Holly Cross with 2950 (1.04 billion endowment) and also called the Crusaders
Valpo 3000 (225mil endowment) used to be called the crusaders
ORU 3,200 (45 mil endowment) lots of new buildings and basketball facilities in the last couple years.
Tulsa University 3,700 (1.36 billion endowment)
Evansville 2526 and an endowment of 93.4 million
St. Bonaventure 2600 (undergrad and graduate)
Mt. Saint Mary's 2250 (undergrad and graduate)
Chicago State 2600 (undergrad and graduate)
Valpo's endowment being large is one way they can learn to perhaps exist as a smaller school. Valpo's problem is that, even with the downsizing that has occurred, it still has a ton of majors/positions/offices/admins that stretch the budget and not enough students to support it.
I think the unsaid part of all of this is that: Valpo is not going under(but unless it fixes enrollment it cannot stay the same size and institution is currently is).
Quote from: crusader05 on May 04, 2023, 01:17:45 PM
Valpo's endowment being large is one way they can learn to perhaps exist as a smaller school. Valpo's problem is that, even with the downsizing that has occurred, it still has a ton of majors/positions/offices/admins that stretch the budget and not enough students to support it.
I think the unsaid part of all of this is that: Valpo is not going under(but unless it fixes enrollment it cannot stay the same size and institution is currently is).
My understanding is that this general topic was a focus of discussion at last week's Board of Directors meeting.
Valpopal:
I mean, if we have shown that we do not have the ability to recruit an extra hundred students at, least not quickly, waiting and hoping for enrollment to bounce back is just going to be a slow bleed of death by paper cuts with every attempt to do so fought and every needed investment treated with suspicion. You can always regrow, but a painful shrinking isn't going to make that easier.
Reaching 100 Years In Dallas, Lutheran Church Grapples With COVID And Decline
https://religionunplugged.com/news/2022/8/2/reaching-100-years-in-dallas-lutheran-church-grapples-with-covid-and-declinenbsp?format=amp
If I'm understanding correctly, it appears that the ELCA will no longer exist by 2050. This can't bode well for Valpo's future identity as a Lutheran University. You can't market something that no one identifies with. That said, take it for what it's worth, which might not be much. I didn't research any of the other Lutheran factions. They could be growing by the millions.
Sobering and more dramatic than I knew. But it is not surprising, especially in Texas. Cue the country song, "If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything."
Old and aimless in the ELCA.
We need 3300 this fall, if not , over 3000.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: valpopal on May 02, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Anything can happen in enrollment during the next few months; however, when considering total number of students—combining all colleges, undergraduate and graduate, freshmen and transfers—my best guess is that we should not expect any appreciable difference from last year when fall semester rolls around.
At his annual end of academic year address to the university today Pres. Padilla publicly detailed enrollment numbers, so I can also be more specific now. The enrollment numbers we've seen after the crucial May 1 date indicate fall attendance likely will closely mirror last year's total. The deposit numbers for fall are almost identical to last year in all areas except nursing, which is down a bit but is made up for by increased numbers of grad students, many of whom are international and do not receive any tuition discount. In fact, the projection is that international student numbers will again start rising now that Covid has subsided. (The decrease in enrollment in recent years was partly due to the loss of international student population.)
A big revelation was that the Board of Directors approved a vision of the university official identity going forward as a 3000 (full-time equivalent) student institution. (There could be slightly higher enrollment numbers of individuals since part-time students and grad students are not fte.) Without getting into the weeds, the budget projection and assets numbers do not reflect a disastrous future. Instead, the five-year projections seemed to offer a more heartening tone. I applaud Padilla for the transparency in his presentation.
3000 full-time students seems like a reasonable goal. Near the end of my tenure there the number was closer to 2500 due to the small COVID classes. Reaching that goal would mean that enrollment has bounced back and slightly increased
Quote from: valpopal on May 05, 2023, 10:03:49 AM
Quote from: valpopal on May 02, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Anything can happen in enrollment during the next few months; however, when considering total number of students—combining all colleges, undergraduate and graduate, freshmen and transfers—my best guess is that we should not expect any appreciable difference from last year when fall semester rolls around.
At his annual end of academic year address to the university today Pres. Padilla publicly detailed enrollment numbers, so I can also be more specific now. The enrollment numbers we've seen after the crucial May 1 date indicate fall attendance likely will closely mirror last year's total. The deposit numbers for fall are almost identical to last year in all areas except nursing, which is down a bit but is made up for by increased numbers of grad students, many of whom are international and do not receive any tuition discount. In fact, the projection is that international student numbers will again start rising now that Covid has subsided. (The decrease in enrollment in recent years was partly due to the loss of international student population.)
A big revelation was that the Board of Directors approved a vision of the university official identity going forward as a 3000 (full-time equivalent) student institution. (There could be slightly higher enrollment numbers of individuals since part-time students and grad students are not fte.) Without getting into the weeds, the budget projection and assets numbers do not reflect a disastrous future. Instead, the five-year projections seemed to offer a more heartening tone. I applaud Padilla for the transparency in his presentation.
Valpo has operated at a $12-15M operating loss for 3 consecutive years (going on 4) at an enrollment level of 3000 students. I'm not sure how consistently under earning and over spending suddenly becomes a vision for future success. There has to be more to it - a lot more.
Yes, I agree WH.
Like you in the business world, I don't need to know what that element is and I respect the board's need for some privilege in their planning and their control of information.
But on the surface the math certainly doesn't improve at the undergraduate level. In terms of operating income, the new fall 2023 undergraduate FTE number is implied to be well under 3,000 if you read closely. So, you might have the full tuition money coming from a gain in graduate students, but they don't stay in campus and yield room and board income.
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2023, 10:35:03 AM
Quote from: valpopal on May 05, 2023, 10:03:49 AM
Quote from: valpopal on May 02, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Anything can happen in enrollment during the next few months; however, when considering total number of students—combining all colleges, undergraduate and graduate, freshmen and transfers—my best guess is that we should not expect any appreciable difference from last year when fall semester rolls around.
At his annual end of academic year address to the university today Pres. Padilla publicly detailed enrollment numbers, so I can also be more specific now. The enrollment numbers we've seen after the crucial May 1 date indicate fall attendance likely will closely mirror last year's total. The deposit numbers for fall are almost identical to last year in all areas except nursing, which is down a bit but is made up for by increased numbers of grad students, many of whom are international and do not receive any tuition discount. In fact, the projection is that international student numbers will again start rising now that Covid has subsided. (The decrease in enrollment in recent years was partly due to the loss of international student population.)
A big revelation was that the Board of Directors approved a vision of the university official identity going forward as a 3000 (full-time equivalent) student institution. (There could be slightly higher enrollment numbers of individuals since part-time students and grad students are not fte.) Without getting into the weeds, the budget projection and assets numbers do not reflect a disastrous future. Instead, the five-year projections seemed to offer a more heartening tone. I applaud Padilla for the transparency in his presentation.
Valpo has operated at a $12-15M operating loss for 3 consecutive years (going on 4) at an enrollment level of 3000 students. I'm not sure how consistently under earning and over spending suddenly becomes a vision for future success. There has to be more to it - a lot more.
Pres. Padilla and his staff presented dozens of budget lines detailing revenue, assets, operating costs, endowment income, etc. (As I said, I choose not to get into the weeds.) Much of the operating loss you mention is compensated by the other categories. For example, a routine drawdown from the endowment (which happens every year) of 5% would make up much of operating losses from the endowment, whose directed investments in areas other than stocks are doing surprisingly well during the current market downturn, though admittedly not the 11% obtained in the year before Covid. Your enrollment numbers are inaccurate as well if we regard full-time equivalence. Although total enrollment is reported in the media as about 2900, the university's fte enrollment has been closer to 2500 the past four years. The budget displayed by Padilla actually showed the university experiences budget surpluses once the 3000 student fte number is reached, hopefully by 2026 or soon after. Optimistic, maybe, but hopeful and not disastrous.
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2023, 10:35:03 AMValpo has operated at a $12-15M operating loss for 3 consecutive years (going on 4) at an enrollment level of 3000 students. I'm not sure how consistently under earning and over spending suddenly becomes a vision for future success. There has to be more to it - a lot more.
I just looked at the 2019 form 990 (didn't take the time to dig for more recent ones!). In 2019 Valpo had a net loss of +/- 12 million but, that loss was made up of 12 million in Depreciation/Amortization, thus, non-cash expense(s). As a result, 2019 saw a breakeven cash flow wise.
I love a feel-good story as much as the next guy, especially when it comes to the future of a grand university that I care about. I also know how depreciation write-offs can skew financial results. As any honest person would freely admit, Moody's report paints a far more sobering picture. It references repeated annual budget deficits associated with declining enrollment. It warns of serious consequences unless major changes occur. I'm sorry, but that reality doesn't change one iota simply because the university papers over it with feel good charts and graphs that suddenly say we're good to go at 3000. If it's being done so creditors don't panic and support doesn't dry up, fine. But, we're all grown adults here who know more than most. Ask yourself honestly if this makes any sense to you. If it does, do everyone a favor and let Moody's know that they're being overly dramatic and need to correct their reporting.
"RATINGS RATIONALE
The downgrade to Baa2 reflects a large structural budget imbalance, with weak operating performance and debt service coverage likely over the next several years. Liquidity is already very thin, inclusive of draws under a working capital line, and will erode further, with the pace of decline dependent on the ability to successfully implement in a timely way initiatives to realign its program and expense structure with enrollment amid a difficult regional student market. The university generated a nearly 8% operating deficit in fiscal 2022 and the deficit for fiscal 2023 is forecast to be substantially worse, with below 1.0x debt service coverage from regular operations.
Despite these challenges, Valparaiso University's Baa2 remains supported by its very good total wealth, good levels of spendable cash and investments, and a recognized regional brand bolstering a still good strategic position. Philanthropic support is relatively good with three-year gift revenue averaging over $15 million. Despite a use of some liquid reserves, spendable cash and investments continues to provide solid debt coverage at nearly 1.4x. An operating base of over $112 million provides some expense flexibility and potential for operating performance improvement through expense reductions. Additionally, the university has gained some traction in graduate programs, including nursing and information technology.
RATING OUTLOOK
The outlook is currently stable incorporating the university's identified budget initiatives, which have some prospects for success on both the revenue and expense side. The stable outlook also incorporates broader wealth levels that provide some financial flexibility to implement plans. The university's management team is relatively new without a yet established track record of reversing the university's multi-year enrollment and financial challenges. Inability to make clear progress in fiscal 2024, including meeting enrollment targets in Fall 2023 would have either rating or outlook implications.
FACTORS THAT COULD LEAD TO AN UPGRADE OF THE RATINGS
- Notable strengthening of brand and strategic position, reflected in growing enrollment and net tuition revenue and further growth in philanthropy
- Significant improvement in annual operating performance driven by net tuition revenue growth and expense reductions
- Material growth in total wealth and financial reserves with significantly stronger liquidity
FACTORS THAT COULD LEAD TO A DOWNGRADE OF THE RATINGS
- Failure to make progress towards stabilizing enrollment in fall 2023 with growth in net student revenue
- Inability to make substantial progress towards narrowing operating imbalances in fiscal 2024 and beyond, with consistent debt service coverage above 1.2x.
- Further reduction in unrestricted liquidity or broader wealth levels
LEGAL SECURITY
Outstanding debt is all unsecured general obligations of the university. The J.P. Morgan Chase line of credit includes a financial covenant that unrestricted cash and investments to debt be at least 1.0x. The covenanted ratio stood at 1.5x in fiscal 2022. There are no debt reserve fund requirements."
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2023, 02:43:16 PM
I love a feel-good story as much as the next guy, especially when it comes to the future of a grand university that I care about. I also know how depreciation write-offs can skew financial results. As any honest person would freely admit, Moody's report paints a far more sobering picture. It references repeated annual budget deficits associated with declining enrollment. It warns of serious consequences unless major changes occur. I'm sorry, but that reality doesn't change one iota simply because the university papers over it with feel good charts and graphs that suddenly say we're good to go at 3000. If it's being done so creditors don't panic and support doesn't dry up, fine. But, we're all grown adults here who know more than most. Ask yourself honestly if this makes any sense to you. If it does, do everyone a favor and let Moody's know that they're being overly dramatic and need to correct their reporting.
The analysis, conclusions, and recommendations are not results of a feel-good promotion by the university. As you know from my past positions on issues, I would naturally be the first one skeptical of such a purely in-house presentation. The figures today represented the reported findings by an objective outside consulting firm from comprehensive studies done during the past year of all aspects relating to enrollment and financial stability. According to Pres. Padilla (who referenced the Moody's evaluation in his remarks) and his staff, the report considered multiple perspectives and substantial data gathered by the firm, including the recent ratings summaries. I credit Padilla with a balanced and transparent overview.
Padilla seems like the right guy at the right time for tough and firm direction. I can't judge the numbers you heard ValpoPal, but the approach is indeed reassuring. He gets credit for transparency and for addressing Moody's head on!
Wise men use consultants to bear bad news.
Nothing is more important than hope, and it sounds like President Padilla provided it. Here's to a long, prosperous future for Valparaiso University.
To the posts previously raised on enrollment and the financial situation:
-First, there are posts that state a $12M annual deficit and posts that indicate most or all of this is covered in some way. What I have never seen in any report is whether annual distributions from the endowment (and that is a primary purpose of an endowment) are included in these figures and how much the distributions are (I am sure that they vary by year).
-In regards to targeting enrollment at 3000....this is far easier said than done. When any organization tries to "right size" itself, it needs to determine the number and types of employees that can be supported by the estimated revenue. Good organizations do things that are good for employees like retrain them, along with necessary steps like managed attrition and (unfortunately) layoffs. But universities have severe limitations in employee mobility. The stated "3000" number is likely comprised of targeted enrollment numbers in each of the colleges and there is likely an imbalance where the professional colleges don't have enough faculty for their part of the 3000 or will not be allowed to replace faculty who leave (for retirement, a position at a different university, etc.). My fear is that Valpo, from what it is doing, will expect colleges like engineering, nursing, business - colleges with the greatest demand - to "get by" with less (e.g., teach larger/more classes, continuously hiring adjuncts - both of which risk losing accreditation) with faculty being paid under the market rate for their specific discipline. That scenario creates risks for these colleges to be sustainable in the long term and risks being able to achieve the revised enrollment target.
I do think President Padilla has the right motivation and also think that the transparency that he exhibits is critical to moving forward. But I do feel that he will need to make further difficult choices associated with how resources associated with "3000" will be distributed across the colleges.
I would bet you $100 to your $10 that endowment distribution is part of the income they balance against expense. And still come up short.
Another point about Endowment. People always act like endowment is absolutely guaranteed revenue year to year. That is certainly true if the market doesn't plummet. I think that somehow you are locked out of spending any of it if the value drops to a certain point in value. I don't know what this is.
Healthy endowment management calls for 4-5% annual distribution for general expense use. This number has historically provided for continued growth that weathers the down markets. Using a percentage for tangible use also helps to promote more giving. People want to see their legacy gifts used, not just hidden away.
Adding to DuneHwx comments, it is essentially guaranteed revenue year to year because (as DuneHwx pointed out) there is a targeted return from investing and a targeted distribution...and both are usually 5% (that is per Valpo's university advancement). Further, they don't distribute any money from a donation to endowment until the total value has increased by at least 5% from the original donation. The total annual payout from endowment does vary, however, because some donations do not follow this structure - they might accrue more value until any money is paid out or they may pay out sooner than traditional endowed funds.
Is Valpo going to graduate a class bigger than what is hoped for in the freshman class? I just don't know when the decline started. If it is the case, then the battle is even more uphill.
That's a good question. Fingers are crossed that it is not a big difference.
That's why a small entering class is so brutal. You take that financial hit for four years while they rinse through the system.
I believe that this years class will be bigger than the incoming but not by as much as before. I believe last years graduating class was the big class (it was also the only class to get a full pre-covid year) but I don't know how much was between larger incoming vs better retention and how those numbers play out.
Only God knows I guess. But he will be watching Valpo reporting out to U.S. News and some accreditors at some point in September. Bye until then on this topic.
Quote from: valpo22 on May 08, 2023, 09:12:11 AM
Quote from: vu72 on May 07, 2023, 01:43:22 PM
Is Valpo going to graduate a class bigger than what is hoped for in the freshman class? I just don't know when the decline started. If it is the case, then the battle is even more uphill.
I am confused by this question. This has been happening for many years now, as the undergrad enrollment shrinks and the incoming freshman classes are fairly consistently smaller than the outgoing senior classes. This is what we have been talking about for several years here I thought...
Starting freshman class - 4-year churn = graduating senior class. '72 is saying that this year's starting freshman class is not only smaller than prior starting freshman classes, it's smaller than prior graduating classes (post churn). He's making a point about magnitude of loss.
It's like saying my current gross salary is less than my take home pay 3 years ago. You share that with a friend, who says, "Whoa! I knew you suffered through some pay cuts, but I had no idea things were this bad. How do you even survive?"
One perspective on budget deficits, reinforced from experiences at my university. At the undergraduate level, our fall 2020 and fall 2021 classes came in very low. Definitely a COVID thing. Things started to recover in fall 2022. But as crusadermoe noted, it means four years of lower revenue. I'm guessing that many schools are dealing with budget deficits associated with these COVID classes, likely running through the 2024-25 academic year.
Another perspective, of a social nature. Fewer young men are opting for college. And it's not because they're opting for trade schools that can lead to very good livelihoods. Rather, think extended time living in the parents' basement. Educators are using phrases such as "failure to thrive" and "failure to launch." This pattern is now showing up at the graduate and professional levels. For example, in law schools (including mine), women comprise a notable majority of entering classes and assume many student leadership roles in academic honors organizations.
There are a million jobs that don't require a college degree, many that pay very well, but by and large girls aren't willing to consider anything where they might get dirty, or hot and sweaty, or have an element of danger, or require manual dexterity, lifting, etc. They still want to act like little girls when it serves their self interest. Then you have the dads like me and now my son who fall victim to all the nonsense and spend exorbitant sums of money on college so their little princess won't have to work as a checker at Stracks. Even then, they shy away from STEM and business where the real money is, because they're hardwired to prefer people over things. You hope to God they select nursing where they can engage with people and make money doing it, but it's just as likely that they will gravitate toward teaching, or non-profit work, or the grievance industry where they can live a life full of bitterness, and jealousy, because not only do they not want to work with their hands, they don't want to work around sick people either. So, there you have it - the real reason there are way more girls in college than guys.
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2023, 05:29:11 PM
There are a million jobs that don't require a college degree, many that pay very well, but by and large girls aren't willing to consider anything where they might get dirty, or hot and sweaty, or have an element of danger, or require manual dexterity, lifting, etc. They still act like girls when it serves their self interest. Then you have the dads like me and now my son who fall victim to all the nonsense and spend exorbitant sums of money on college so their little princess won't have to work as a checker at Stracks. Even then, they shy away from STEM and business where the real money is, because they're hardwired to prefer people over things. You hope to God they select nursing where they can engage with people and make money doing it, but it's just as likely that they will gravitate toward teaching, or non-profit work, or the grievance industry where they can live a life full of bitterness, and jealousy, because not only do they not want to work with their hands, they don't want to work around sick people either. So, there you have it - the real reason there are way more girls in college than guys.
Wtf?
Debating sharing this with my mom, who served in the Marines and worked in the automotive industry for 20 years before transitioning to a pharmacy technician and then spending 15 years at Harley-Davidson. I'd share this with her, but she's probably out working with her hands and too busy to sit in front of a computer screen living a life full of bitterness and jealously.
Quote from: Pgmado on May 08, 2023, 05:40:37 PM
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2023, 05:29:11 PM
There are a million jobs that don't require a college degree, many that pay very well, but by and large girls aren't willing to consider anything where they might get dirty, or hot and sweaty, or have an element of danger, or require manual dexterity, lifting, etc. They still act like girls when it serves their self interest. Then you have the dads like me and now my son who fall victim to all the nonsense and spend exorbitant sums of money on college so their little princess won't have to work as a checker at Stracks. Even then, they shy away from STEM and business where the real money is, because they're hardwired to prefer people over things. You hope to God they select nursing where they can engage with people and make money doing it, but it's just as likely that they will gravitate toward teaching, or non-profit work, or the grievance industry where they can live a life full of bitterness, and jealousy, because not only do they not want to work with their hands, they don't want to work around sick people either. So, there you have it - the real reason there are way more girls in college than guys.
Wtf?
Debating sharing this with my mom, who served in the Marines and worked in the automotive industry for 20 years before transitioning to a pharmacy technician and then spending 15 years at Harley-Davidson. I'd share this with her, but she's probably out working with her hands and too busy to sit in front of a computer screen living a life full of bitterness and jealously.
Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence, Paul.
Neither is a screed put on a message board filled with distaste for women
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2023, 05:29:11 PM
There are a million jobs that don't require a college degree, many that pay very well, but by and large girls aren't willing to consider anything where they might get dirty, or hot and sweaty, or have an element of danger, or require manual dexterity, lifting, etc. They still want to act like little girls when it serves their self interest. Then you have the dads like me and now my son who fall victim to all the nonsense and spend exorbitant sums of money on college so their little princess won't have to work as a checker at Stracks. Even then, they shy away from STEM and business where the real money is, because they're hardwired to prefer people over things. You hope to God they select nursing where they can engage with people and make money doing it, but it's just as likely that they will gravitate toward teaching, or non-profit work, or the grievance industry where they can live a life full of bitterness, and jealousy, because not only do they not want to work with their hands, they don't want to work around sick people either. So, there you have it - the real reason there are way more girls in college than guys.
So.....in response to a much shared observation that many young men today are "failing to launch" (thus contributing to a gender imbalance and overall enrollment declines in higher ed), you respond that the "real" reason why women outnumber men in colleges is that the women want to be pampered princesses, perhaps seeking training to enter occupations you happen to despise?
One of the best things about this board (and there are many good things) is that folks try to contribute to conversations meaningfully and to weigh honest differences of opinion. In fact, I cannot recall anyone posting something so jaw droppingly awful that I'm gobsmacked. Until now.
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2023, 05:29:11 PM
There are a million jobs that don't require a college degree, many that pay very well, but by and large girls aren't willing to consider anything where they might get dirty, or hot and sweaty, or have an element of danger, or require manual dexterity, lifting, etc. They still want to act like little girls when it serves their self interest. Then you have the dads like me and now my son who fall victim to all the nonsense and spend exorbitant sums of money on college so their little princess won't have to work as a checker at Stracks. Even then, they shy away from STEM and business where the real money is, because they're hardwired to prefer people over things. You hope to God they select nursing where they can engage with people and make money doing it, but it's just as likely that they will gravitate toward teaching, or non-profit work, or the grievance industry where they can live a life full of bitterness, and jealousy, because not only do they not want to work with their hands, they don't want to work around sick people either. So, there you have it - the real reason there are way more girls in college than guys.
WH, I usually respect your basketball and business perspective. But, man, you have crossed the line with this rant It is so stereotypically misogynistic that it saddens me. "They don't want to work around sick people"? HELLO, who greets you at your clinic? Who does your workup? Who is the surgeon, specialist, OR tech, or OP nurse that saves your freakin life after a heart attack?
In this case you are way out of line and you need to rethink what you posted, because I truly believe you didn't mean what you said.
And that is OK.
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2023, 05:29:11 PM
There are a million jobs that don't require a college degree, many that pay very well, but by and large girls aren't willing to consider anything where they might get dirty, or hot and sweaty, or have an element of danger, or require manual dexterity, lifting, etc. They still want to act like little girls when it serves their self interest. Then you have the dads like me and now my son who fall victim to all the nonsense and spend exorbitant sums of money on college so their little princess won't have to work as a checker at Stracks. Even then, they shy away from STEM and business where the real money is, because they're hardwired to prefer people over things. You hope to God they select nursing where they can engage with people and make money doing it, but it's just as likely that they will gravitate toward teaching, or non-profit work, or the grievance industry where they can live a life full of bitterness, and jealousy, because not only do they not want to work with their hands, they don't want to work around sick people either. So, there you have it - the real reason there are way more girls in college than guys.
As I have said about a couple of your previous comments, once again for the sake of comity, I will proceed under the assumption you have been hacked.
My comments are based in fact and supported by statistics. In response, you highlighted only 1 of many points, misrepresented what I said, and lazily dismissed my entire narrative as a "misogynistic rant." I know you're an avowed liberal, and I respect that. What I have no regard for is anyone who rejects out-of-hand a view that supports undeniable innate biological differences between the sexes because it doesn't align with some recently invented leftist ideological view of life.
Quote from: valpopal on May 08, 2023, 08:10:57 PM
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2023, 05:29:11 PM
There are a million jobs that don't require a college degree, many that pay very well, but by and large girls aren't willing to consider anything where they might get dirty, or hot and sweaty, or have an element of danger, or require manual dexterity, lifting, etc. They still want to act like little girls when it serves their self interest. Then you have the dads like me and now my son who fall victim to all the nonsense and spend exorbitant sums of money on college so their little princess won't have to work as a checker at Stracks. Even then, they shy away from STEM and business where the real money is, because they're hardwired to prefer people over things. You hope to God they select nursing where they can engage with people and make money doing it, but it's just as likely that they will gravitate toward teaching, or non-profit work, or the grievance industry where they can live a life full of bitterness, and jealousy, because not only do they not want to work with their hands, they don't want to work around sick people either. So, there you have it - the real reason there are way more girls in college than guys.
As I have said about a couple of your previous comments, once again for the sake of comity, I will proceed under the assumption you have been hacked.
Our resident voice of reason, or...
...a petulant child that hates Daddy because he had the audacity to tell you that he's going to sell your 4-wheeler that you haven't ridden in 2 years, because the family has fallen on hard times.
You are getting lots of feedback here. Maybe take a minute to step away from your defensiveness and do some self-assessment on why your words are hitting as misogynistic. How might your perspective be different if you had a daughter and not a son? Why do you seem to harbor so much anger toward women? What else might it be about the culture of these jobs that lead women to not pursue them?
Quote from: DuneHwx on May 09, 2023, 07:16:50 AM
You are getting lots of feedback here. Maybe take a minute to step away from your defensiveness and do some self-assessment on why your words are hitting as misogynistic. How might your perspective be different if you had a daughter and not a son? Why do you seem to harbor so much anger toward women? What else might it be about the culture of these jobs that lead women to not pursue them?
You sound like someone that is not entrenched in leftest mythology, so I will be happy to respectfully reply to your questions at a later time. I'm just coming off a 3-day weekend with a full day and evening ahead. So, enjoy your day, and let's hope for more good bb news.
David, I think another factor is that there is no guarantee of success in college or with a college degree, so young men today are afraid to try, not realizing that the line of thinking is flawed as anything is better than doing nothing in your parents basement. It is very hard to wake up everyday and put a lot of time and effort into something knowing that there is a chance it is all for naught, which is what I think many of the young boys today believe. There needs to be a lot more effort spent in high schools on teaching young men the value of working hard and at least trying, and on the value of a college degree (just having a bachelors opens up many doors). From my experience as a male, there was a lot of emphasis on getting women into higher education (particularly stem) but less focus on the male students and their potential options, nor was there a lot of encouragement provided to said students. College is scary when you are still in high school, and a little encouragement and outwardly expressed belief in the male pupils of today would go a long way in solving this issue
WH- I agree with your points about the jobs women choose to go into, but it definitely could be expressed in a less condescending way. It is true that women, despite the efforts in getting them into STEM, strongly prefer other career paths. One is hard pressed to find a male in social work and a woman in engineering, and biological factors are 100% at play in this. Men and women are very different and desire different things. For example, while there are female sports fans out there, there aren't any women that I know that enjoy watching and following sports, one of the favorite pasttimes for me and my friends. This of course presents interesting issues for universities of today, as the most profitable STEM industries, and thus the most profitable degrees that make college worth it, tend to be male dominated fields that most women are not interested in, yet less men are interested in college. The fields that are getting cut and may not be worth the cost to major in tend to be women-dominated, yet women are the ones who are more likely to go to college, which is a bit of a catch-22. However WH, I will say that I think your point was written with underlying contempt. I agree with most of the things you post on this board, but they can definitely be written without the closeness and hostility that hinders debate. You have expressed your concerns with how the far left is stifling debate in higher education and is expressing intense hate toward individuals who do not agree with them, which I (and most people) would agree that this is a big problem in higher education at certain schools. Thus, to quote Star Wars, I would caution you not to become the very thing that you swore to destroy
I did a little digging and found some interesting information concerning men and women and what they are studying at
Valpo.
These stats from 2020-2021 year:
College of
Engineering: Men 75% Women 25%
College of Business: 41% Men 59% Women
College of Nursing: 14% Men 86% Women
Both the College of Business and College of Engineering have chapters for women on campus:
https://www.valpo.edu/news/2022/03/17/leveling-the-field-for-women-in-business/
https://www.valpo.edu/college-of-engineering/society-of-women-engineers-swe/
At the graduate level, women are in the low 40s %-wise in MBA programs and over 50% of law and medical students. However, I'm sure graduate engineering remains overwhelmingly male.
Quote from: VU2022 on May 09, 2023, 11:54:24 AM
David, I think another factor is that there is no guarantee of success in college or with a college degree, so young men today are afraid to try, not realizing that the line of thinking is flawed as anything is better than doing nothing in your parents basement. It is very hard to wake up everyday and put a lot of time and effort into something knowing that there is a chance it is all for naught, which is what I think many of the young boys today believe. There needs to be a lot more effort spent in high schools on teaching young men the value of working hard and at least trying, and on the value of a college degree (just having a bachelors opens up many doors). From my experience as a male, there was a lot of emphasis on getting women into higher education (particularly stem) but less focus on the male students and their potential options, nor was there a lot of encouragement provided to said students. College is scary when you are still in high school, and a little encouragement and outwardly expressed belief in the male pupils of today would go a long way in solving this issue
VU2022, then obviously the support and messaging aren't coming through. Whether it's pursuing a degree or skilled trade, entering the military, or some other post-high school option, we know pretty darn well that opting for none will lead to dead ends pretty quickly. It doesn't have to be about college, but it does have to be about
something.
My daughter is attending Rice this fall to major in chemical engineering and busted her tail off for this opportunity. I really don't like where wh is going on this other than possibly some bad meds.
Yes, I agree with USC. My daughters are solid in math and using it in their majors. I have never sensed any avoidance of math and science and at least half of their close friends are in nursing, accounting, or a hard science/engineering track.
I agree with WH 90% of the time on his realities of business comments.
But these generalizations from WH on gender from WH are making the whole board look bad. I hope for the sake of my still single daughters that the basement dweller video gamer population of young men are not a large population. That would hurt the odds of their class ages of finding good husbands. I would be proud to have them marry a strong tradesman with great values.
I would also say that it's not also that they're not going to college or dong anything else but that even those that are at college, are often less involved. I've heard from friends who work at universities that getting the men to apply for jobs or join organizations is like pulling teeth and that there are taskforces looking at the issue.
There's lots and lots of theories out there and while picking your political piccadillo of choice may be satisfyingly this is a long standing issue that has been happening and is concerning. My own person theory is the advent of video games. I know women who are married who often have to pry husbands away from their gaming consoles where they will spend hours of their time rather than socializing or engaging in real life activities. The dopamine hit of a lot of video games is very similar to gambling and I worry that, for all the focus the drug war has we may have a whole other addiction out there.
Building off the highly valid points from usc4valpo and crusadermoe, my daughters are also strong in math and other quantitative work and busted their tails to complete degrees in professional disciplines. Suggesting that they, or other women like them, are not capable because of their gender has no biological foundation and is highly offensive (and is not consistent with Valpo's values).
People ask why women are underrepresented in areas like engineering or finance. I suggest two potential explanations: 1. institutional bias (note: this comes from institutional theory in which people use traits to assess whether someone is legitimate in their role) - people (both men and women) are more likely to question whether a woman in one of these disciplines is legitimate (as opposed to a man). This creates subtle (and not so subtile) inferences that "women do this and don't do that" that affect their career choices; 2. fear of being the minority - many women fear being the "only woman in the room". I have heard from numerous female C-level officers (in disciplines other than HR) that this is a major thing that women still need to overcome. To these points, consider this: women are vastly underrepresented in finance, but are far more appropriately represented in accounting. Yet, these two disciplines generally require the same foundational skills and have similar challenges in work/life balance. These two explanations (probably along with others) fit why there are dramatically lower levels of representation in finance.
Building on crusader05's point about video games (as well as, probably, social media)...I think this is a good point, but that it was amplified by restrictions associated with COVID (especially remote learning, which is a joke for the vast majority of students - especially in K-12). When someone has less opportunities to develop relationships, they obviously have less relationships - but fewer relationships reduces the opportunities to gain perspectives and be inspired.
On another note, over the years Valpo has raised the percentage of engineering students who are women from 10 to 25 percent (I actually thought it was a bit higher than that).
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2023, 02:24:12 PM
I did a little digging and found some interesting information concerning men and women and what they are studying at
Valpo.
These stats from 2020-2021 year:
College of Business: 41% Men 59% Women
This stat didn't seem right to me, so I checked the official enrollment figures for Valparaiso.
New undergraduate students enrolled in Business:
20-21: (Male 73.5%) (Female 26.5%)
21-22: (Male 58.4%) (Female 41.6%)
22-23: (Male 74.3%) (Female 25.7%)
The graduate numbers in Business for these three years seems fairly consistent, about 60% male and 40% female.
I would guess Valpo22 has greats into his age peers and is being candid to his credit across all of those issues.
What bothers me though is that the young man certainly had multiple opportunities to work in HVAC or many other construction jobs. Those certainly are not libtard or sissy jobs. I know business men who are screaming for workers in that male age group. Peer pressure from dad and uncles is not stopping them from doing that work. In fact they would be VERY impressed.
So what the hell is wrong with the young guys who choose NEITHER college or wide-open jobs that don't need a degree? I will also be honest and say that my cousin in landscaping says that immigrants, legal or not, out work their American counterparts in the more manual jobs. Again, WTF?
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 10, 2023, 11:06:15 AMwomen are vastly underrepresented in finance
This may be, but if you watch Bloomberg in the morning you'll see LOADS of females in senior level finance positions including Chief Investment Officer etc. And, for what it's worth, I'm happy to point out that my daughter, who got a degree in Physics, is now a Vice President at Fidelity.
Quote from: vu72 on May 10, 2023, 01:00:36 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 10, 2023, 11:06:15 AMwomen are vastly underrepresented in finance
This may be, but if you watch Bloomberg in the morning you'll see LOADS of females in senior level finance positions including Chief Investment Officer etc. And, for what it's worth, I'm happy to point out that my daughter, who got a degree in Physics, is now a Vice President at Fidelity.
One of my daughters has a degree in finance...and works in finance. My point was based on enrollment...only 20-25% of our finance majors are women, and I think this ratio is similar to many other universities.
Quote from: VU2022 on May 09, 2023, 11:54:24 AMMen and women are very different and desire different things. For example, while there are female sports fans out there, there aren't any women that I know that enjoy watching and following sports, one of the favorite pasttimes for me and my friends.
Wow, really, my 2 sisters, ex-wife, 2 female college friends, internet female friend from fan message board, 2 internet female friends from European soccer message board and one of my nieces are all big sport fans.
Wow. These emotional negative reactions to my post might be worthy of a study on reading comprehension. First off, my paraphrased assertion that girls gravitate toward college majors with less lifetime earnings potential is 100% supported by statistical data from the BLS.
To the "are you saying my daughter is dumb" crowd, the aforementioned gender-based trends have nothing to do with IQ, for which there is no appreciable difference between male and female. As I clearly stated they do have everything to do with gender differences that reveal themselves at a very early age. I'm sure many here are generally aware of an abundance of "truck" vs. "doll" studies that show that little boys are more likely to gravitate toward toys with moving parts that "do things" rather than a doll or stuffed animal to hold and cuddle, and vise versa for little girls.
As to my assertion that girls pass up unlimited opportunities for good paying blue collar jobs:
From the Washington Post, 6/25/21:
"While women still dominate in some roles such as health services and education, they account for less than 30% of factory jobs and less than 9% in construction. In fact, nationwide, women are 80% less likely to work a blue-collar job compared to men."
As to my point that girls choose jobs and career paths with far less earnings potential than boys, that is absolutely factual. Attach any reason to it that fits your comfort zone; it's immaterial to the reality that a clear distinction is ever present. Oh, and for Mr. Oren the fact that your mom worked in blue collar doesn't disprove anything. It doesn't even poke a hole in anything. We're talking about statistical probability, not absolute distinction. Somehow I doubt that if I were to have said there are more tornadoes in Oklahoma than Wisconsin, you would have pounced on it with a visceral response, like "wtf, my mom lived through a tornado worse than anything ever seen in Oklahoma." Something to ponder.
From Valpo's website, average student debt in 2019 was $37,000. Now look at Purdue's: Of the 2021 graduating class, 60% graduated from Purdue debt-free, far above the 45% national average. The average debt per Purdue student in 2021 was $3,389, down from more than $5,400 in 2021. Loan default rates were 1.7% in 2018, more than three times lower than the national four-year public university rate."
So, tell me, anyone, how it was somehow "inappropriate" to express a great deal of frustration when your daughter or your granddaughter, both of whom you love more than life itself, innately gravitate toward a relationship-centered college major at a private university that will leave them $40,000 in debt as they enter into adulthood with lower/far lower lifetime earnings power than those who chose male-dominated STEM or business career paths. Add to that living with the knowledge that they could have chosen the same major at a state school and started their adult life debt free. Misogyny? Woman hater? Complete clown responses.
Quote from: historyman on May 10, 2023, 04:31:13 PM
Wow, really, my 2 sisters, ex-wife, 2 female college friends, internet female friend from fan message board, 2 internet female friends from European soccer message board and one of my nieces are all big sport fans.
Historyman, you do not know how good you have it, I wish the women in my life would be sports fans like that. But Alas.
VU22 I fully agree with what you said. Doing a job is hard and requires effort, and some people today do not want to (nor are forced) to put the effort in to do something with their life. I think that it is the core of the issue. If it wasn't video games it would be something else instead of doing manual work (painful and exhausting) or going to school (requires work, no guarantee of success) even if one or the other are necessary to live a good life
As I read through this enthralling conversation about women, men, college, no college, blue collar, white collar, dirty work, clean work, yadda, yadda, one thing jumped out at me. I have become quite concerned (depressed would be too strong a term - right now) for the future of many of the young men in our country. Am I overstating what I am seeing?
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 10, 2023, 10:16:59 PM
As I read through this enthralling conversation about women, men, college, no college, blue collar, white collar, dirty work, clean work, yadda, yadda, one thing jumped out at me. I have become quite concerned (depressed would be too strong a term - right now) for the future of many of the young men in our country. Am I overstating what I am seeing?
I don't think you're overstating it. A lot of educators at the secondary and post-secondary levels are seeing it and are concerned. Unfortunately, the conversations can get shut down when folks try to politicize the subject and play blame games. I don't think this state of affairs fits conveniently into any ideological narrative, lest important considerations be overlooked.
I'm guessing that the video game phenomenon mentioned by others is the cover for the deeper somethings underneath. It sure does play into the imagery of the young man in the basement, playing until all hours, yes?
Quote from: wh on May 10, 2023, 04:47:32 PM
Wow. These emotional negative reactions to my post might be worthy of a study on reading comprehension. First off, my paraphrased assertion that girls gravitate toward college majors with less lifetime earnings potential is 100% supported by statistical data from the BLS.
To the "are you saying my daughter is dumb" crowd, the aforementioned gender-based trends have nothing to do with IQ, for which there is no appreciable difference between male and female. As I clearly stated they do have everything to do with gender differences that reveal themselves at a very early age. I'm sure many here are generally aware of an abundance of "truck" vs. "doll" studies that show that little boys are more likely to gravitate toward toys with moving parts that "do things" rather than a doll or stuffed animal to hold and cuddle, and vise versa for little girls.
As to my assertion that girls pass up unlimited opportunities for good paying blue collar jobs:
From the Washington Post, 6/25/21:
"While women still dominate in some roles such as health services and education, they account for less than 30% of factory jobs and less than 9% in construction. In fact, nationwide, women are 80% less likely to work a blue-collar job compared to men."
As to my point that girls choose jobs and career paths with far less earnings potential than boys, that is absolutely factual. Attach any reason to it that fits your comfort zone; it's immaterial to the reality that a clear distinction is ever present. Oh, and for Mr. Oren the fact that your mom worked in blue collar doesn't disprove anything. It doesn't even poke a hole in anything. We're talking about statistical probability, not absolute distinction. Somehow I doubt that if I were to have said there are more tornadoes in Oklahoma than Wisconsin, you would have pounced on it with a visceral response, like "wtf, my mom lived through a tornado worse than anything ever seen in Oklahoma." Something to ponder.
From Valpo's website, average student debt in 2019 was $37,000. Now look at Purdue's: Of the 2021 graduating class, 60% graduated from Purdue debt-free, far above the 45% national average. The average debt per Purdue student in 2021 was $3,389, down from more than $5,400 in 2021. Loan default rates were 1.7% in 2018, more than three times lower than the national four-year public university rate."
So, tell me, anyone, how it was somehow "inappropriate" to express a great deal of frustration when your daughter or your granddaughter, both of whom you love more than life itself, innately gravitate toward a relationship-centered college major at a private university that will leave them $40,000 in debt as they enter into adulthood with lower/far lower lifetime earnings power than those who chose male-dominated STEM or business career paths. Add to that living with the knowledge that they could have chosen the same major at a state school and started their adult life debt free. Misogyny? Woman hater? Complete clown responses.
I'm really not trying to get into a pissing contest here. But let me say this. I thought you were way out of line with your very general comments about women. If you want to cite stats to support your claims, fine. What set me off was your line "live a life full of bitterness and jealously." It had a tinge of, dare I say, bitterness and jealously.
Reading through this latest post that I've quoted, it really seems to me that you're implying the only accomplishment (or joy to be found) in life is through money. I know there are career paths I could've chosen that would've led me to having higher "lifetime earnings power," but that wasn't my focus in in life. I take great pride in the teaching profession and great joy in being a sportswriter. Given that these are people-centered jobs, I can't help but wonder if I'd be viewed as a failure in your household.
I've said my piece. I've always appreciated your passion for Valpo athletics and will continue to do so. I'm going to go back to waiting for recruits to call me back.
Quote from: VU2022 on May 10, 2023, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: historyman on May 10, 2023, 04:31:13 PM
Wow, really, my 2 sisters, ex-wife, 2 female college friends, internet female friend from fan message board, 2 internet female friends from European soccer message board and one of my nieces are all big sport fans.
Historyman, you do not know how good you have it, I wish the women in my life would be sports fans like that. But Alas.
VU22 I fully agree with what you said. Doing a job is hard and requires effort, and some people today do not want to (nor are forced) to put the effort in to do something with their life. I think that it is the core of the issue. If it wasn't video games it would be something else instead of doing manual work (painful and exhausting) or going to school (requires work, no guarantee of success) even if one or the other are necessary to live a good life
If you want to see lots of women who are informed pro sports fans, then do come here to Boston. Many of my women students can more than hold their own in virtually any conversation about the local teams.
Quote from: Pgmado on May 11, 2023, 01:29:57 AM
Quote from: wh on May 10, 2023, 04:47:32 PM
Wow. These emotional negative reactions to my post might be worthy of a study on reading comprehension. First off, my paraphrased assertion that girls gravitate toward college majors with less lifetime earnings potential is 100% supported by statistical data from the BLS.
To the "are you saying my daughter is dumb" crowd, the aforementioned gender-based trends have nothing to do with IQ, for which there is no appreciable difference between male and female. As I clearly stated they do have everything to do with gender differences that reveal themselves at a very early age. I'm sure many here are generally aware of an abundance of "truck" vs. "doll" studies that show that little boys are more likely to gravitate toward toys with moving parts that "do things" rather than a doll or stuffed animal to hold and cuddle, and vise versa for little girls.
As to my assertion that girls pass up unlimited opportunities for good paying blue collar jobs:
From the Washington Post, 6/25/21:
"While women still dominate in some roles such as health services and education, they account for less than 30% of factory jobs and less than 9% in construction. In fact, nationwide, women are 80% less likely to work a blue-collar job compared to men."
As to my point that girls choose jobs and career paths with far less earnings potential than boys, that is absolutely factual. Attach any reason to it that fits your comfort zone; it's immaterial to the reality that a clear distinction is ever present. Oh, and for Mr. Oren the fact that your mom worked in blue collar doesn't disprove anything. It doesn't even poke a hole in anything. We're talking about statistical probability, not absolute distinction. Somehow I doubt that if I were to have said there are more tornadoes in Oklahoma than Wisconsin, you would have pounced on it with a visceral response, like "wtf, my mom lived through a tornado worse than anything ever seen in Oklahoma." Something to ponder.
From Valpo's website, average student debt in 2019 was $37,000. Now look at Purdue's: Of the 2021 graduating class, 60% graduated from Purdue debt-free, far above the 45% national average. The average debt per Purdue student in 2021 was $3,389, down from more than $5,400 in 2021. Loan default rates were 1.7% in 2018, more than three times lower than the national four-year public university rate."
So, tell me, anyone, how it was somehow "inappropriate" to express a great deal of frustration when your daughter or your granddaughter, both of whom you love more than life itself, innately gravitate toward a relationship-centered college major at a private university that will leave them $40,000 in debt as they enter into adulthood with lower/far lower lifetime earnings power than those who chose male-dominated STEM or business career paths. Add to that living with the knowledge that they could have chosen the same major at a state school and started their adult life debt free. Misogyny? Woman hater? Complete clown responses.
I'm really not trying to get into a pissing contest here. But let me say this. I thought you were way out of line with your very general comments about women. If you want to cite stats to support your claims, fine. What set me off was your line "live a life full of bitterness and jealously." It had a tinge of, dare I say, bitterness and jealously.
Reading through this latest post that I've quoted, it really seems to me that you're implying the only accomplishment (or joy to be found) in life is through money. I know there are career paths I could've chosen that would've led me to having higher "lifetime earnings power," but that wasn't my focus in in life. I take great pride in the teaching profession and great joy in being a sportswriter. Given that these are people-centered jobs, I can't help but wonder if I'd be viewed as a failure in your household.
I've said my piece. I've always appreciated your passion for Valpo athletics and will continue to do so. I'm going to go back to waiting for recruits to call me back.
My message was crystal clear. The fact that you misinterpreted it as having ill intent is on you. Even after I clarified with a more detailed follow-up post, you responded with a cheap shot accusing me of ranking human value by earnings potential.
It's obvious that you're highly sensitive about the money thing, so let's talk about that. When my youngest daughter was in her junior year of college, she told me she wanted to switch her major to education. She said she always had a passion to be an English teacher and was afraid she might have regrets down the road that she didn't pursue her real passion in life. I told her I was all for it, with one caveat - that she understands and is willing to accept that she will be earning far less as a teacher than the career track she was on. She essentially mirrored your comments above about money and journalism. She understood, she accepted it, she wasn't motivated by money, happiness comes from doing what you love not from what you make, etc., etc.
Well, Paul, it wasn't 6 months into her first year teaching that she started complaining about how underpaid and under appreciated teachers are, given all the responsibility, frustration with unsupportive parents, pressure to meet state learning standards, and other legitimate issues. It wasn't long until she began to adopt her union's negative push/pull, us vs. them attitude toward their school administration. Somewhere along the way "passion" took a back seat to practicality, and eventually it was replaced entirely by the influence of a toxic work environment full of frustrated (may I say in some cases embittered) coworkers. Thus was her life until a decade later when she had finally had her fill and made a complete career change to nursing. She has reconnected with her God-given passion to serve others and gets paid a wage more commensurate with the value she provides than teaching did.
So, Paul, is the way to happiness through a fat paycheck? Of course not. But, the way to unhappiness can be a thin paycheck, IF you legitimately feel taken advantage of, or worse yet abused. Clearly, teachers are underpaid relative to the value they add to human development. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. It's a lot to ask any person in the trade to accept, even though they know it going in. Money is important, and becomes even more so when you get married and have children. Bills mount up, needs are greater, taking vacations to refresh and rejuvenate, medical issues, home repairs, the car breaks down, birthdays and Christmas, school books, school clothes, piano lessons, sports participation, and endless etc. Financial stress can be overwhelming and kill all the joy in your life. That's when the rubber meets the road about feeling financially cheated. It's difficult to ignore when you think your child needs to go to the emergency room and you don't have money for the co-pay. That, my friend, is what I don't want for my children, or yours, or anyone's.
I'll leave that with you to interpret, or misinterpret as the case may be.
I thought this thread was "Enrollment Numbers" as it relates to VU. All I am reading is about women sports fans. Are we getting a little off track here?
Hoping it was just a one-time lapse by you, I tried to ignore the seemingly subconscious bitterness and your snide attitude toward women, wh, when they were initially apparent about a month ago by your use of the following unsavory example in a comment toward me that you somehow and inexplicably thought favorably helped your position. Unfortunately, your recent posts addressed to Paul and others seem to indicate otherwise, and they point out a need for some thoughtful self-reflection on your part.
Quote from: wh on April 18, 2023, 06:10:16 PM (https://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=4314.msg148778#msg148778)Your wife could have sex with 3 guys at the same time while you're at work, and if you get mad and call her the "c" word, she immediately becomes the victim.
And now, back to enrollment numbers!
News reports say Valpo is graduating 575 undergrad and 183 graduates degree students, for a total of 758 spots to fill to keep pace.
Quote from: valpopal on May 11, 2023, 07:55:48 AM
Hoping it was just a one-time lapse by you, I tried to ignore the seemingly subconscious bitterness and your snide attitude toward women, wh, when they were initially apparent about a month ago by your use of the following unsavory example in a comment toward me that you somehow and inexplicably thought favorably helped your position. Unfortunately, your recent posts addressed to Paul and others seem to indicate otherwise, and they point out a need for some thoughtful self-reflection on your part.
Quote from: wh on April 18, 2023, 06:10:16 PM (https://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=4314.msg148778#msg148778)Your wife could have sex with 3 guys at the same time while you're at work, and if you get mad and call her the "c" word, she immediately becomes the victim.
You are an interesting study in psychology. A mister nice guy public persona and a schemer behind closed doors. My best to you and your esteemed colleagues as you continue to concoct your brew of self-preservation over university best interest. I'm sure our President and Board are as proud of your work as I am.
Quote from: vu72 on May 11, 2023, 09:30:33 AM
And now, back to enrollment numbers!
News reports say Valpo is graduating 575 undergrad and 183 graduates degree students, for a total of 758 spots to fill to keep pace.
Looking back to posts a year ago, I think the undergrad deposits at this time last year were around 620. Factoring in late additions, melt, and net transfers, I would think 575 will be achieved - but likely not much higher than that. Admittedly, I do not have data and am just "reading the tea leaves".
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2023, 02:24:12 PM
I did a little digging and found some interesting information concerning men and women and what they are studying at
Valpo.
These stats from 2020-2021 year:
College of
Engineering: Men 75% Women 25%
Newsletter went out from the College of Engineering this week that said 28.2% of Valpo's current engineering students are women. Additionally, 12.3% of all Valpo engineering students are from underrepresented minority groups.
Yes the tea leaves will have to do for now. I am actually just filibustering some more dialog into this thread so we leave the societal stuff behind. But Valpo22 impressed me with his candor.
And back to how to right sizing the school after enrollment weighs in. I think we need to keep a dead eye on Bradley and Drake as midwest and size peers. Are they facing the same issues of male demographcs? Yes. ....The same issue of spreading a small university too thin? Yes. The issues of student debt and discounting tuition? Yes.
if we are comparing well then our management and board are wise. If not, we need to keep changing until we match or surpass them.
Oops. Bradley is much larger in enrollment across all categories it seems. It does not seem that this was always the case, but my aging memory may be failing me.
Bradley enrolls nearly 6,000 students (approximately 4,600 undergrads, 380 graduate students on campus, and 900 graduate students online) and employs approximately 900 people. The university has an annual operating budget of $161 million and an endowment of $350 million. This individual will join Bradley as the university advances a refreshed vision and its new strategic plan, which were adopted in July 2021 under the leadership of President Stephen Standifird
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 11, 2023, 04:03:59 PMPresident Stephen Standifird
I used to rent an apartment in Peoria from a guy named Standiford. That's got to count for something. :-)
Drake - Undergraduates 2,902
Graduate 1,973
Total Enrollment 4,875
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 11, 2023, 06:07:01 PM
Drake - Undergraduates 2,902
Graduate 1,973
Total Enrollment 4,875
NW Indiana residents enrolled 902.
To Paul Oren, I'll just say keeping it going. I wish that you were being paid more as a VU faculty member. And I wish that more folks would subscribe to The Victory Bell, because good journalists deserve to be paid for their work. However, I am always happy when someone finds or creates their unique, valuable niche, one that provides both personal rewards and (hopefully!) pays enough to cover the bills.
And yes, this does have something to do with enrollment. If Valpo is to serve its broader community, then it should help to open many different vocational doors for its students and graduates. If you want to make your first million before you're 30 or cash in big on some new invention, great, VU can help you get there. If you want to help troubled kids or do policy analysis for a non-profit, VU can help to create those options as well. It doesn't mean maintaining a major that attracts only 3 majors, but it does mean committing to a rich curriculum and an array of degree options.
After all, return-on-investment isn't all about money, though ideally a VU degree will help folks earn more of it. Rather, this degree is one important piece of an overall experience that hopefully will create more choices and possibilities than it restricts.
Quote from: David81 on May 11, 2023, 11:04:07 PMTo Paul Oren, I'll just say keeping it going. I wish that you were being paid more as a VU faculty member. And I wish that more folks would subscribe to The Victory Bell, because good journalists deserve to be paid for their work.
I believe Paul is trying the Todd Ickow route and win large amounts of money in poker tournaments. Or maybe that has ended already?
David. Paul - nice responses. the challenge is for Valpo to stay afloat with a broad range of studies on a beer budget. How will that be done?
Historyman, how in the world did you get the statistic that 902 of Drake students come from NW Indiana? That seems awfully high and not credible without a source (not asking a name.)
Valpo quite likely does does not attract half that number 902 from all of Iowa. Someone like Valpo05 or 22 may know that statistic. My beet says fewer than 75 even though there are tons of Lutherans in Iowa.
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 12, 2023, 09:03:09 AMeven though there are tons of Lutherans in Iowa.
True and even more in Minnesota yet the effort to recruit these students is totally lacking. There is no concerted effort to single out this group in any way.
From numerous posts on this board, and I think primarily yours, there is no focused effort to seek out Lutherans per se or the regions where they are numerous. Yes, they are a fading demographic. But there is a personal network of alumni with ties to high school families and all other things being equal start out with an edge in winning the student.
Your perception that they lack focus on these groups or regions would lead me to one of three conclusions. I can't tell you which is correct: 1) They are not proactive strategic planners and purely react to applicants or inquiries 2) they passively just do not see them as a priority above any others 3) they know they have moved away from Lutheran beliefs and want to avoid the feedback on their mission they might receive by interacting with Fort Wayne or with other city's Lutheran alumni. Those people founded the school and their families fed it students from the 1950s through the 1980s or 90s. It's my perception that the new arts building drew liberal faculty who in turn attracted liberal families from the Chicago (a new constituency of families with shallow Valpo roots.)
Quote from: valpo22 on May 12, 2023, 10:09:47 AMwas Valpo's historic Lutheran identity serving a local or national draw, or both?
Just from my (more recent) experience, my hunch is that Valpo Lutheranism actually used to function to bring in students from a long distance, but no longer does.
The answer is "yes" on both fronts.
When I was a student (67-72) Valpo was probably 75% Lutheran and was fed by a Lutheran network of high schools across the country. In my case, I came from a Lutheran High School in Cleveland where, of the 75 in my class, probably 10 students went on to Valpo. At a place like Fort Wayne, the percent of graduates going on to Valpo was probably even higher. Valpo had a national draw, not necessarily because of the Lutheran element's but because of family draw and family history. In my case, I had two uncles, an aunt, three cousins, a brother, a sister-in-law and since graduation, two nethews, attend Valpo. None went to Valpo to go on to become anything related to clergy or Lutheran educators.
VU22, that is an interesting point. I also think one of the big defining factors for Valpo, besides its location in northwest Indiana, is its size. There are really 4 sizes of universities: Universities that are tiny liberal arts colleges, universities that are Valpo sized, mid size private universities like Notre dame, and large state schools. I think the small school size yet decently ranked programs is what attracts midwestern students to Valpo vs. other midwest schools such as Notre dame, Purdue, U of I, IU, ect.
From my experience, most students who want to stay in the Midwest just blanket apply to some or all Illinois and Indiana schools, so there has to be some sort of Valpo identity at play (private Christian school, size, location, admission, ect) for each student who is going to Valpo. I am surprised that the university does not publish statistics for main reasons for attending the school, it would go a long way to improving recruiting and would allow certain demographics to be targeted with a personalized recruitment campaign rather than a one-size-fits-all strategy
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 12, 2023, 08:03:37 AM
David. Paul - nice responses. the challenge is for Valpo to stay afloat with a broad range of studies on a beer budget. How will that be done?
Well, I'm not a beer connoisseur, but I'd say the good thing is that Valpo is more Sam Adams than Milwaukee's Best. 🤓🍻
In other words, it may not be Ivy League, but it has tradition, substance, quality, a good reputation, and a respectably funded endowment relative to peer universities.
Conversations on this board have persuaded me that VU is significantly under-marketed to prospective students and that its messaging is not as effective as it should be, both to its traditional Lutheran high school base (however shrinking in #s) and in terms of marketing the school to a broader range of students for whom it would be a very good match. They've been using that lame "Where Passion Meets Purpose" tagline for at least a decade, and it's basically an empty container of air. Somehow, someway, there should be a feasible path toward increasing the incoming undergraduate class by at least 100 students each fall.
I confess to be at a loss in terms of developing new graduate programs. Some schools have jumped in big with online graduate degrees, but frankly, a lot of those programs are uninspired, often vendor-packaged offerings that are more about revenue streams than quality education. They reek of cheesy, for-profit university status.
And, of course, there's the steady slog of building fundraising capacity. Among other things, I'm going to guess that a fairly good number of alums who have been very successful in terms of income & wealth have never been cultivated by university development folks. This is not a criticism of the current development operation, but rather noting the ongoing cost of being a bit later to the dance than some other schools in terms of developing a strong alumni fundraising program.
BINGO. There needs to be some sort of Valpo identity in play.
Quote from: valpopal on May 05, 2023, 10:03:49 AM
Quote from: valpopal on May 02, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Anything can happen in enrollment during the next few months; however, when considering total number of students—combining all colleges, undergraduate and graduate, freshmen and transfers—my best guess is that we should not expect any appreciable difference from last year when fall semester rolls around.
At his annual end of academic year address to the university today Pres. Padilla publicly detailed enrollment numbers, so I can also be more specific now. The enrollment numbers we've seen after the crucial May 1 date indicate fall attendance likely will closely mirror last year's total. The deposit numbers for fall are almost identical to last year in all areas except nursing, which is down a bit but is made up for by increased numbers of grad students, many of whom are international and do not receive any tuition discount. In fact, the projection is that international student numbers will again start rising now that Covid has subsided. (The decrease in enrollment in recent years was partly due to the loss of international student population.)
A big revelation was that the Board of Directors approved a vision of the university official identity going forward as a 3000 (full-time equivalent) student institution. (There could be slightly higher enrollment numbers of individuals since part-time students and grad students are not fte.) Without getting into the weeds, the budget projection and assets numbers do not reflect a disastrous future. Instead, the five-year projections seemed to offer a more heartening tone. I applaud Padilla for the transparency in his presentation.
I attended an extremely detailed briefing this morning by a representative of the consulting firm recommending future directions for the university. I appreciate this opportunity and applaud the university for making the information available. The scores of stats and graphs offered a very good view at where Valparaiso University stands in relation to all other universities, especially those (private and public) with whom the university competes for students. I will not reveal any of the specifics here that have not been made public previously by Pres. Padilla, but I will say that the data given confirm Padilla's stated goal of a 3000 full-time equivalent student population, 700 freshmen and 100 transfers per year, as the reasonable target of student population—roughly 2800-2900 undergraduates and 300-500 graduate students would achieve this number. With a refined consistent recruitment strategy, Valparaiso University is well situated, economically and structurally, to reach these numbers within the next five years. The overall presentation was enlightening and heartening as there seemed to be no indication of doom or disaster looming, and the expected trend for the university in future enrollment appeared hopeful.
valpopal - I appreciate you sharing this and realize that there are limitations on what you can (and should) share in an open forum. Yet, I will offer a question and a comment. First, what were the underlying assumptions associated with their model and subsequent conclusions? While I agree that Valparaiso has strengths that can be leveraged as advantages, there are also investments that seem to be needed to shore up disadvantages and/or take advantage of trends (e.g., greater need for healthcare driving huge demand for nursing and other medical professions). You can't make an assessment on the number of students without linking it to assumptions (and I realize this may have been done in this meeting and that you cannot share it openly). Second, I am always a bit dubious of consultants. They are hired and paid for by the leaders of the organization they are analyzing...thus there is a tendency to tell the client what they want to hear. Not saying that this is the case here (I have no idea), but always something that should be considered.
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 12, 2023, 09:03:09 AM
Historyman, how in the world did you get the statistic that 902 of Drake students come from NW Indiana? That seems awfully high and not credible without a source (not asking a name.)
Valpo quite likely does does not attract half that number 902 from all of Iowa. Someone like Valpo05 or 22 may know that statistic. My beet says fewer than 75 even though there are tons of Lutherans in Iowa.
(https://i.imgflip.com/11ndkd.jpg)
I think it's broke.
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 12, 2023, 03:58:15 PM
valpopal - I appreciate you sharing this and realize that there are limitations on what you can (and should) share in an open forum. Yet, I will offer a question and a comment. First, what were the underlying assumptions associated with their model and subsequent conclusions? While I agree that Valparaiso has strengths that can be leveraged as advantages, there are also investments that seem to be needed to shore up disadvantages and/or take advantage of trends (e.g., greater need for healthcare driving huge demand for nursing and other medical professions). You can't make an assessment on the number of students without linking it to assumptions (and I realize this may have been done in this meeting and that you cannot share it openly). Second, I am always a bit dubious of consultants. They are hired and paid for by the leaders of the organization they are analyzing...thus there is a tendency to tell the client what they want to hear. Not saying that this is the case here (I have no idea), but always something that should be considered.
Excuse me if I necessarily speak in generalities. The presentation began with numerous obvious assumptions to all, including those beyond the control of Valpo or any other university, such as the so-called demographic admissions "cliff" predicted between 2025 and 2029, which was closely examined. As you suggest, some professions could be expected to continue in ascendency during the next decade based upon social and economic trends, plus an uptick in graduate students and returning numbers of international students after covid. The 90-minute session explored various scenarios the university itself actually could direct. Some situations could be met immediately, such as a refined and consistent admissions strategy with greater focus toward an established goal and a higher likelihood of success. Other situations would be implemented further in the future, such as considering instituting new majors that have already been proven very popular elsewhere, especially interdisciplinary studies. Just one possible example among many offered is neuroscience, which could be under the combined control of psychology and biology.
In general, the target would be a 3000 fte student enrollment, as Pres. Padilla publicly stated last week. The estimated numbers would include about 800 new undergraduate students each fall: 700 freshmen and 100 transfers. Overall graduate numbers could be about 300-500 to reach the fte goal. Essentially, Valpo merely needs to recapture most of the enrollment figures from 2019-2020, the last year before covid and the first year with 0 law students, when the university (according to its own public release of enrollment numbers) had a total student population of 3521 (494 of those grad students), but the new student numbers were 1004 (812 undergraduates and 192 grads), a realistic goal in the next few years.
In the low point of 2022-23, the new grad student numbers were 322, and the new undergraduate numbers (freshmen plus transfers) were 737. Therefore, an increase of about 60 undergraduate freshmen and transfers would get Valpo to its minimal goal even without an increase in grad students, though they should go up as well. This can be done.
As you know from my previous posts on other topics, I am normally skeptical of administration guidance and need evidence, but I felt the displayed goals and tactics for reaching them seemed reasonable and achievable.
I fully understand your need to speak in generalities and appreciate the clarification that you could provide.
I hope that when using transfers in these models that they are applying net transfers (transfers in minus transfer out).
Quote from: valpo22 on May 13, 2023, 08:46:57 AM
Pal, could you speak to the FTE goals? I am as eager for positive projections as anybody, but a little unsure what to make of the optimism around the FTE goal.
As you said in a previous post "Although total enrollment is reported in the media as about 2900, the university's fte enrollment has been closer to 2500 the past four years. The budget displayed by Padilla actually showed the university experiences budget surpluses once the 3000 student fte number is reached, hopefully by 2026 or soon after."
Am i misunderstandign these categories and stats, or doesn't that gap still mean the university somehow needs around 500 more students enrolled to break even? I'm not saying that's impossible, but just seems a little surprising in a context where the professional schools were actually a little lower last year, and nursing is down. Those are the sectors that everybody likes to tout as the successful/fertile ones, so thoughts? Where is Valpo going to get 500 more students to meet this 3,000 FTE student goal? THe past couple years, folks have been worrying about much smaller differntials like up 5 or down 10, and yet we think we can enroll additional hundreds of them? We've been talking about wanting freshman enrollment in the 700+ range for a couple years now, but keep missing it. This past fall was 552 freshmen. So how is this renewed discussion of a 700 freshmen different, and not just a restatement of the previous (and missed) goal in a more cheery tone?
Maybe it is possible and I am underestimating factors like the new coach, if high schoolers are paying attention to those sorts of staffing issues when they make these decisions.
The published total enrollment numbers for 2022-2023 are 2355 undergrads and 609 grads. The new student head count for Fall 2022 (freshmen and transfers) was 737. That gives you an fte closer to 2500 than 2900. However, Valpo is looking to increase the incoming undergrad population in the next 3-5 years to its 2019-2020 (last year before covid and first year with no law school students) new student number of 812 freshmen and transfers, an increase of 75 over the low point last year. That number was actually 790 in 2020-21, the first year partially impacted by covid, so an increase of only 10 over that would get Valpo to 800, though I think 790 would be satisfactory, especially since grad numbers are trending up quite well.
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 13, 2023, 09:56:34 AM
I fully understand your need to speak in generalities and appreciate the clarification that you could provide.
I hope that when using transfers in these models that they are applying net transfers (transfers in minus transfer out).
The transfer numbers are incoming new students. Attrition and retainment numbers were topics explored, as well, with plans proposed to lower outgoing transfers and increase incoming transfers. Even taking net transfers in and out under consideration, an incoming class of 700 freshmen, plus adding the grad school enrollment, would give Valpo the 3000 ftes it is seeking.
An opinion piece by the president of the University of Montana from the Washington Post on the nation-wide decrease in enrollment.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/15/college-student-enrollment-decline-economics/
I hope there is no paywall.
Thank you VULB. That is a fantastic article!
I hit a paywall. But I am sure it is a good article.
OK. got through the paywall. Certainly the trends in the stats are a headwind. Returning to Pre-COVID enrollments, and not expecting to exceed them quickly, seems to be an agreed goal across most schools.
The magic number had been set for 6,000.
And they made it!!!!!!!
Real Madrid score their 6,000th goal in LaLiga - AS USA (https://en.as.com/en/2018/02/18/soccer/1518990779_846508.html)
Real Madrid score their 6,000th goal in LaLiga[/color]The Spanish giants hit the landmark total with their third goal against Betis, the second on the night from Asensio.
(https://img.asmedia.epimg.net/resizer/CiCCNmEzFUT96A-n7yTQuUg1P1o=/200x84/s3.amazonaws.com/arc-authors/diarioas/00354b27-f9a6-4b39-8988-cb676b7993b3.png)[/color]Ruby Arés[/font][/color][/font][/color]ruby_ares
Update: February 18th, 2018 17:07 EST
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(https://www.facebook.com/dialog/share?display=popup&app_id=185133994857832&href=https%3A%2F%2Fen.as.com%2Fen%2F2018%2F02%2F18%2Fsoccer%2F1518990779_846508.html%3Fssm=FB_CC"e=Real%20Madrid%20score%20their%206%2C000th%20goal%20in%20LaLiga)[/url][/color][/font]
[/color] (https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.as.com%2Fen%2F2018%2F02%2F18%2Fsoccer%2F1518990779_846508.html%3Fssm=TW_CC&text=Real%20Madrid%20score%20their%206%2C000th%20goal%20in%20LaLiga&via=English_AS&lang=en-us)[/url][/color]
[/color][/color][/color]0[/size]
(https://img.asmedia.epimg.net/resizer/kZ-8Kf1gid3MEV6JtZ_SkUZ79mE=/360x203/cloudfront-eu-central-1.images.arcpublishing.com/diarioas/U3ORR7TV3ZLUHOSYOHJZ32FULM.jpg)MIGUEL MORENATTIDIARIO AS[/size]
[/color]Real Madrid reached the landmark total of 6,000 goals scored in LaLiga, this evening in their match against Betis. Marco Asensio bagged the goal in question, Real Madrid's third of the night and the player's second. Real Madrid ran out 5-3 winners. (https://en.as.com/en/2018/02/18/football/1518979552_076353.html)[/font][/color]Real Madrid ahead of BarcelonReal Madrid lead the scoring table in the Spanish top flight, now on 6,002 goals. Their closest rivals Barcelona have scored 5,962.
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Ha. You had me going there.
One good way to meet your goal is to cut it in half. The goal of 6,000 students became 3,000 students.
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 18, 2023, 10:07:14 AM
Ha. You had me going there.
One good way to meet your goal is to cut it in half. The goal of 6,000 students became 3,000 students.
So now the goal is 1,500 students? Wait, 750 students? 375 students?, 187.5 students? What qualifies as a half student?
One of the main obstacles in VU's enrollment woes is Bart Harvey. He can't keep doing the same thing over and over again and think something different is going to happen. Padilla and his new golden child in Enrollment better get a better plan than hinging their hopes in making VU an HSI. Great in theory, but the enrollment cliff soon approaching is only going to make VU's enrollment cohorts shrink even more than it is.
Once again VU let good people leave when they could have retained them. Those folks in the Provost wing had vision in terms of retention and enrollment that was working. Then the shift of leadership has changed the momentum that was built.
Trust me, I could go on and on with this, but like Padilla and his COS, it will fall on deaf ears.
VUSupport: I have no idea on the validity of your comments - and thus have no way to trust you, but will offer two points from my own experiences (at another university):
-Becoming recognized as an HSI (Hispanic Serving Institution) is an unrealistic goal, as the goal is 25% of FTEs (Full Time Equivalents). The university that I am at is far better positioned than Valpo to achieve this and did set this HSI goal a number of years ago, but realized after several years that it was not achievable. The good thing is that it morphed into having programs that increase the likelihood of success for students from underrepresented groups (including Hispanics), as well as first generation college students and students from other higher risk groups. An important point here is that a university needs to invest in programs (additional classes, etc.) to increase the likelihood of success for underrepresented students. My university brings many of these students in over the summer before their Freshman year to focus on areas where they may struggle. This has increased non-White student enrollment and retention, and is a direction far more likely to succeed for a school like Valpo than an unrealistic HSI goal. Note, recommending that Valpo not pursue HSI does not mean that it shouldn't have specific recruitment initiatives for Hispanic students (or students from any other underrepresented groups).
-The error by many private universities on recruitment is that they try to sell the same university focused story to everyone. That dog does not hunt. For a majority of prospective students, you need to sell the college associated with their interests. This means that EVERY prospective student and his or her family are in the building for that college, meeting with faculty and students. The discussion needs to be catered, as much as possible, to each student's interests. If someone is interested in nursing, someone from nursing talks about specific aspects of the program and outcomes of the nursing program, and is able to answer questions on the spot. The college (not just the university) then follows up with all prospective students. Same thing for political science, finance, engineering, etc., etc. You do everything you can to justify why the investment of cost and time is worth it. If Valpo does not do this consistently well across all of its colleges. then it will lose enrollment because (I can tell you firsthand) its stronger competitors are doing this.
VU84, Valpo was in good hands a couple of years ago with Stacy Miller and Andrea Welch, it Valpo failed to retain them. Welch has now made miraculous strides at the institution she's at with achieving enrollment goals and retention. Padilla could have had her, but his arrogance and hiring a familiar friend has been a negative to the success of the university.
Like I said earlier I can go on more, but why waste my energy when it will fall on deaf ears. I've been in many campuses as an administrator but VU has been the most dysfunctional
Andrea Welch was at Valpo from mid-2017 to mid-2020, so measures that would be indicative of her performance would be new Freshman and overall undergraduate enrollment for Fall 2018, Fall 2019 and Fall 2020.
Fall 2018: 715 new Freshman, Total Undergraduate Enrollment: 3220.
Fall 2019: 685 new Freshman, Total Undergraduate Enrollment: 3011
Fall 2020: 589 new Freshman, Total Undergraduate Enrollment: 2737
I do not know Andrea, but hope that she is doing well at Hiram. However, while there may be other factors that influence enrollment (including COVID in 2020), this cannot be considered exemplary performance.
Results after she left:
Fall 2021: 563 new Freshman, Total Undergraduate Enrollment: 2522
Fall 2022: 552 new Freshman, Total Undergraduate Enrollment: 2355
This, of course, does not exhibit exemplary performance either. My belief, as I stated in other posts, is that the strategy has been wrong for a long time - that there needs to bre much more emphasis on the quality of each of the colleges combined with much greater engagement between prospective students, their families, and faculty in the college in which they are interested.
Also Padilla didn't become president until spring of 2021 so not sure how he could have retained her?
Welch was in the Retention role before Padilla. She left and when Brian left, Dr Andrea's name was suggested for Padilla to reach out to her because majority of administration and faculty told him. Unfortunately he did not take the advice of A LOT of people already on campus. The strides she made in retention and strategies for that and enrollment were going to make waves but once again Padilla had his own agenda. I'll go in more detail through personal message if you want more. If not, I'm done with this subject because I prefer not to get into a pissing contest
She was at Chicago State and, frankly, almost no one gets hired from Chicago State. It is one of the worst performing universities, on basically any metric, in the country. She did make a good move to get out of there.
And guess what? Enrollment and net tuition was up at Chicago State when she was there, just like it is at Hiram. Just sayin'
She was at Chicago State for one year and three months. Not enough time to really judge performance since any improved metics could easily be idiosyncratic (and Chicago State has historically been so poor that any attention could show improvement). I have nothing against this person - she may well be great at what she does. You're just not providing compelling arguments.
2 places she's been at with higher enrollment classes from previous years and higher net tuition isn't a coincidence. Once again I'm not going to get in a pissing contest, but facts are facts. Bart Harvey ain't going to cut it, and neither is Padilla's friend hire. When Ray Brown was at VU, he was grooming Welch. Just ask upper administration about Welch and they'll all tell you the same thing, she pulled people together, had great plans and had amazing traction in retention. Like I said Valpo dropped the ball I'm not bringing her back.
Lastly when they have articles about her in Higher Ed publications touting her as the next rising star in Enrollment, it's just embarrassment to VU. Good luck
Quote from: VUSupport on May 21, 2023, 08:48:29 PM
2 places she's been at with higher enrollment classes from previous years and higher net tuition isn't a coincidence. Once again I'm not going to get in a pissing contest, but facts are facts. Bart Harvey ain't going to cut it, and neither is Padilla's friend hire. When Ray Brown was at VU, he was grooming Welch. Just ask upper administration about Welch and they'll all tell you the same thing, she pulled people together, had great plans and had amazing traction in retention. Like I said Valpo dropped the ball I'm not bringing her back.
Lastly when they have articles about her in Higher Ed publications touting her as the next rising star in Enrollment, it's just embarrassment to VU. Good luck
Just curious, who is Padilla's friend hire?
22 maybe your so called view is marred from where your head is up?
Support, that seems unnecessarily antagonistic to '22 when you're the one coming in here basically acting like the only way the university can succeed is if they hire this one specific person.
You say you don't want a pissing match but you seem to want to be able to just accuse others and than demand we only engage with your privately when someone at all tries to clarify or challenge your position
OK, VUSupport, so Padilla didn't bring your sister back to campus. Get over it. There appear to be some very highly respected folks in these roles now. Let's all see how they do.
Quote from: Pgmado on May 22, 2023, 12:00:21 AM
Just curious, who is Padilla's friend hire?
Was it Brian O'Rourke?
https://www.valpo.edu/news/?type=post&site=239&id=12323 (https://www.valpo.edu/news/?type=post&site=239&id=12323)
Leaving as there is a new person onboarding for his role
I found this interesting. A new student announcement:
https://www.pharostribune.com/news/image_202eac9c-ffd3-11ed-aeca-bf2034181f80.html
So with the published cost of attendance at $62,714 and this young lady getting $51,395 in awards, that still makes her net cost $11,319 for probably a valedictorian or other top notch student. That is scary, to be sure.
Quote from: vu72 on June 02, 2023, 09:34:31 AM
I found this interesting. A new student announcement:
https://www.pharostribune.com/news/image_202eac9c-ffd3-11ed-aeca-bf2034181f80.html
So with the published cost of attendance at $62,714 and this young lady getting $51,395 in awards, that still makes her net cost $11,319 for probably a valedictorian or other top notch student. That is scary, to be sure.
It's why we need to reverse engineer how places like VU -- and I say "places like VU" because VU is hardly alone in this dimension -- went from being relatively affordable back in the day to a point where someone getting $51k in scholarship money must still generate $11k to make it work.
Private non-profit universities do not have to share their deep budget information beyond what it required in the annual non-profit IRS filings, but it sure would be interesting to trace budgets over the past 40 or so years.
P.S. Isn't it odd that news articles touting an outstanding high school student's college plans are running exact financial aid numbers like this? I don't recall that being the case a generation or two ago.
OMG. Yes, the finances of private higher education are so hard to comprehend and certainly hard to endorse. Rather than trying to slice and dice any of the rising expense issues even though those deserve scrutiny, I point the finger squarely at the parents who enable or encourage huge debt as well and moreso government policy which gives $27,000 in eligible loans over 4 years to an 18-year-old. The best prospect for a big net tuition chunk is a dumb parent who wants to brag that his kid got into private school X.
As for parents, you can't fix stupid. Sadly the kids are too young to know that they essentially spending a later inheritance by virtue of the parents spending over $20,000 per year. The parents are in essence spending their kids' money. A student can can easily attend a competitive state school (if his school work deserves it) and work just a few years with $20,000 a year in help. It sounds like a stellar student from Logansport (and/or parents) will pay $11,000. And of course huge portions of the $50,000 in "scholarships" are just discounts on the VU side. Crazy.
In terms of government policy, one can debate fairly whether a capable and independent-minded 18 year old without parents cable of helping should be allowed to borrow $27,000 through federal programs. In a few exceptional cases of high-achieving poor kids you are enabling the true and inspiring "American dream" and dozens of wealthy universities will throw a full ride to you.
But TWO SCANCALS emanate from current government student loan policy. Student loan defaults are now borne by taxpayers. The college bears no risk in the loan default. It all goes to you the taxpayer.
The second part REALLY grates on me. Through a sneaky part of the ObamaCare health care bill. the government is allowed to guarantee all of the default loans. Loans are now 10% of the U.S. economy. This guarantor role gives politicians precisely the power that Biden is trying to excercise; political bribery. It woudl be great if politicians were ethical in these decisions as well as in the social security ponzi scheme.
I am VERY glad to see that the Senate passed a bill with 3 democratic senators votes that stops the Loan Forgiveness bill forgiving $10,000 and again billing the taxpayer. BUT Biden is predicted to veto that bill. That is a constitutional crisis on congressional powers of the purse and a supreme court decision. Taxpayers' rights are held in the balance until the ruling this month. Particularly scandalous is having workers without college bear the guarantor role ON TOP of paying state income taxes that subsidize their public universities. It's tragically unfair to those people
Thank you to Joe Manchin, Kristin Synema and Jon Tester. I find the first two credible senators credible since they blocked the Dems effort to eliminate the filibuster. Ben Franklin said that people get the government they deserve. It's pretty obvious that former Pres. Obama is still puppeteering the White House to transform this country and more aggressively now than he felt able in 2008-2016. He has enthusiastic backing from the massive Blackrock private equity group which is over 50% funded by the Chinese. Sadly our non-degreed workers in the economy are now a minority and are being fleeced beyond anything you could imagine. The younger ones will have no social security.
Moe, come on man. Whatever thread we go to you manage to try to turn it into your personal political diatribe. I've taken your bait more than once but no more. We are teetering on the edge of having the administrator axe the entire conversation based on his ban on political bantering.
Fair enough. Went too far and I see the moderator point esp. in naming politicians and parties.
All on the board probably already agree that that the easy loans are enabling the cost increases. Nuff said.
What about "ENROLLMENT NUMBERS"? Or have I missed something?
Student loans started to dramatically rise and essentially replace grant & scholarship aid as the primary form of financial aid in the early 1980s, and that train has not stopped. This is also when tuition levels started to climb steadily. In the meantime, private lenders and others with skin in the private student loan money pot blocked efforts to allow hopelessly indebted former students and parents (who took out loans to subsidize college for their kids) to discharge their loans in bankruptcy, unlike any other form of major debt.
Does this impact who enrolls at Valparaiso? Definitely. Does it help to explain why some Gen Zers are royally PO'd towards the generations that created this state of affairs? Yup. Will this be easily fixed? Nope, not when it took us over 40 years to get here.
That said, VU is not an outlier when it comes to its tuition & expenses compared to peer schools. Marketing and outreach remain key to bringing in bigger incoming classes.
Yes, thank you, David81. I know my rant was way too long about the student loan scenario and correlation to Federal govt screwing later generations and all taxpayers generally in how it spends and won't extend social security.
But indeed student loans are fully linked to enrollment trending.
Aesop wrote many fables. Of course we have all heard the tale of killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. I think universities have counted on golden eggs (student loans) and ridden the gravy train upward in tuition stickers too far. They killed the golden goose that was enabling. As you say, younger grads buried themselves and are resentful. But they blame others when their parents and selves signed what they signed. I think it is sick that colleges sent to my kids "aid packages" that grouped loans with grants as though the university itself was giving money to them and encouraging them to subtract that loan. Soft parents didn't want to disappoint them.
Quote from: crusadermoe on June 06, 2023, 05:14:17 PM
Yes, thank you, David81. I know my rant was way too long about the student loan scenario and correlation to Federal govt screwing later generations and all taxpayers generally in how it spends and won't extend social security.
But indeed student loans are fully linked to enrollment trending.
Aesop wrote many fables. Of course we have all heard the tale of killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. I think universities have counted on golden eggs (student loans) and ridden the gravy train upward in tuition stickers too far. They killed the golden goose that was enabling. As you say, younger grads buried themselves and are resentful. But they blame others when their parents and selves signed what they signed. I think it is sick that colleges sent to my kids "aid packages" that grouped loans with grants as though the university itself was giving money to them and encouraging them to subtract that loan. Soft parents didn't want to disappoint them.
One thing I'd love to see is a hard ceiling on how much money someone can borrow to attend an institution of higher education.
Some would claim that it's a call for reducing access to higher ed, but I'd say it's exactly what you were referring to, crusadermoe, about the universities and the student loan gravy train. Cap what students and their parents can borrow, and suddenly schools cannot keep pumping up their tuition.
A small, but very important part of enrollment is international students - since a majority of them (unlike US students) pay the full listed price for tuition, room, board, etc. I am not looking to get into a political argument, but a range of things made US universities on the whole less attractive for international students. My suggestion for universities like Valpo is to strategically seek ways to reverse this (by strategic, I mean targeting students from certain regions...for example, focusing on students from Latin/South America could pair well with other university initiatives).
Thank you for your knowledgeable posts, VU22. We can only hope that some demographics will rise and get legal entry. It does seem likely that the Chinese student counts in the U.S. won't rebound soon due to some of the national security concerns.
On a huge point related to enrollment and loan revenue to the school, the X factor in Valpo's financial health is not simply enrollment head count. The net revenue from the class of kids is the real issue. Competition for the best and brightest like the Logansport graduate, has led the non-elite universities and colleges to deeply discount the costs they charge families. The discounts are called such because they aren't actually funded with cash. We will never know the net revenue stat.
I had a friend and fellow student who came to VU as a freshman in the fall of 1990 (perhaps 1991?) from Beirut, Lebanon. He had grown up during the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990) and recalled hiding in shelters during the worst of the fighting. Yet and his family were worried about coming to Valparaiso, because the movie "The Untouchables" had been released a few years before. The violence in that movie made it seem like anyone "close" to Chicago was at risk, and that all problems were solved at gunpoint. Of course, after a few months at Valpo, it was clear that the Hollywood vision and the reality of life on campus were very different, and he laughed about it himself. Yet it always stuck with me that media perceptions matter more than we might expect; here was a guy who grew up with gunfire and artillery shells hitting his neighborhood, yet was legitimately worried about living in Valparaiso!
The other perception that has changed is that it is now easier to see and parse the rankings. Back in my day, the College of Engineering had a modest pipeline of students coming to VU from Malaysia. They got a good education, yet the government of Malaysia decided to focus their efforts on sending students to bigger name schools, so that partnership faded.
Valpo22: Great and well-articulated insights. I would not recommend having a pillar of Valpo's business plan rely on a percentage of international students, but agree with your conclusion that there may well be certain strategic populations for certain fields. I would also add that, from my knowledge, Asian and Latin/South American countries still (and for some time) will not have the depth of very good universities like the U.S. (relative to their population). American universities were rarely getting international students who gained acceptance (solely based on testing) into the top universities in China, South Korea, Singapore, etc. However, they were getting the next tier of students since the next tier of universities in these countries is far inferior to U.S. universities. Those countries will not be able to rapidly increase the quality or reputation of those next tier universities because they will not be able to get the necessary level of professors/instructors (that takes a long time). Thus, the potential demand will be there for U.S. universities. I agree that U.S. universities need to overcome the bad publicity about the U.S., but I think this is possible since an argument can be built about how unlikely it is for international students to be affected by the problems you list.
The benefit of increased graduate students is that it will relieve some of the pressure on the undergrad sign to shoulder the full increase in enrollments. The goal is not put all your eggs into the basket of one country or area because that can be a risky proposition's. But increasing international students through pulling from more countries and also investing in programs that pull in Domestic citizens or even local community members, plus on-line programs can be a robust strategy. You can also use graduate programs to help in regards to increasing staffing through Graduate Assistantships. There are plenty of offices on small campuses that have one or two people doing the work of five that could benefit from extra staff and provide a stellar professional development experience.
Additional challenges for recruiting international students include perceptions of the U.S. being an unwelcoming place for foreigners (beyond the much less likely possibility of being shot), immigration policy snafus & twists, and lingering concerns about travel if a new COVID variant or another pathogen rears its ugly head.
There's also the market aspect: Countless universities struggling with their undergraduate enrollments are looking to (1) international students; and (2) newfangled masters degree programs (esp. online) as potential revenue enhancers. It's a brutally competitive environment.
Soooo....it brings me back to how VU can better reach and market itself to prospective undergraduates for whom it would be a good place. I still think that market has not been exhausted.
62k list price. Oh wow. Kids really should attend P5 or state Universities if that's the case.
Wow.
Quote from: valpofb16 on June 12, 2023, 09:52:32 PM
62k list price. Oh wow. Kids really should attend P5 or state Universities if that's the case.
Wow.
The difference is not as great as I think you are assuming (though there is a price difference). On average, a student at Valpo is probably getting scholarships that reduce tuition by 30-40%. State universities give very little in the way of academic scholarships, except for a small number of free rides for very exceptional prospective students or special deals to attract students from certain areas (e.g., Alabama and Arkansas target high school students in Illinois)
That's true. If you Google "Valpo cost" you'll see that the average cost after aid is $25,802. That's still a big pill to swallow. The VU web site has a highlighted caveat that tells prospective students that the actual cost of enrolling is much less than the sticker price.
The key figure is average indebtedness at graduation.
On that measure, VU is competitive, with this site reporting loans averaging $7,986/year, against a national average of $6,768/year. Higher than desirable, but not dramatically out of step. Here's the link:
https://www.niche.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-loans/ (https://www.niche.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-loans/)
And this site grades VU an A- on overall value, based on "average net price, earnings potential, student and alumni reviews, and additional factors."
Quote from: valpo22 on June 27, 2023, 03:53:41 AM
Another one bites the dust: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/06/26/cabrini-university-will-close (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/06/26/cabrini-university-will-close)
https://cabriniuniversitylegacy.com/cabrini-2/info-updates/ (https://cabriniuniversitylegacy.com/cabrini-2/info-updates/)
Cabrini University is closing at the end of this year
That isn't the only thing falling short in Philadelphia, the Phillies are over 10 games back of the Braves. But OTOH the I-95 has been temporarily repaired ahead of schedule.
Closing of Cabrini University sends shockwaves through community - CBS Philadelphia (cbsnews.com) (https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/cabrini-university-closing-villanova-closure-st-joes-education/)
Quote from: valpo22 on June 27, 2023, 03:53:41 AM
Another one bites the dust: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/06/26/cabrini-university-will-close
https://cabriniuniversitylegacy.com/cabrini-2/info-updates/
Cabrini University is closing at the end of this year
Their endowment stood at $34 million in 2022.
Pal may be able to confirm this but what I've heard is that Enrollment is stable from last year in regards to undergrads and way up(like close to double) in regards to graduate students (unclear how much of that is international).
I'd like to see an increase in enrollment but stabilization is better than continued dropping and if we can figure out how to launch successful and wanted graduate programs it can definitely help in buying time while undergraduate works to steady the ship.
A couple other things I've heard: increase in nursing programs has created more competition in that area and they are seeing that elite schools, flagship state schools, and many city based schools are continuing success/bouncing back faster.
I've heard that Indiana State is having significant issues in regards to enrollment as well as Evansville but that Butler has been doing very well.
Quote from: vu72 on June 27, 2023, 07:57:14 AM
Quote from: valpo22 on June 27, 2023, 03:53:41 AM
Another one bites the dust: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/06/26/cabrini-university-will-close
https://cabriniuniversitylegacy.com/cabrini-2/info-updates/
Cabrini University is closing at the end of this year
Their endowment stood at $34 million in 2022.
The Cabrini University endowment figure cited by vu72 is key.
Many of the private colleges and universities that are closing right now do not have a lot of cash backing them. They are going to be the main casualties that we see in an ongoing shakeout of less competitive private schools.
Of course, it doesn't mean that VU should be complacent. These closings are unsettling news. VU will have to act prudently and -- equally important -- avoid doing risky stupid stuff. But unless there's some awful big secret being kept from us (which I very much doubt is the case), it does mean that it is not at dire risk of closing its doors in the near future.
Quote from: crusader05 on June 27, 2023, 10:40:16 AM
Pal may be able to confirm this but what I've heard is that Enrollment is stable from last year in regards to undergrads and way up(like close to double) in regards to graduate students (unclear how much of that is international).
:thumbsup:
Without knowing what their total student enrollment is, $34M is just a number. Whatever the amount (large or small, relatively), when a university is teetering on the edge of disaster, its endowment is not going to save it from financial ruin. It might provide limited temporary relief; however, if declining tuition and housing revenues fail to cover expenses for a long enough period, the university is doomed to failure. Insolvency results from expenses exceeding revenues over time, during which the university depletes available assets, can no longer borrow, and literally runs out of money to operate. I've attached a link to a Forbes article that explains why university endowments by design cannot save a university from insolvency.
Why Not Use Those Large Endowments To Save Colleges?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrosowsky/2020/06/01/why-not-use-those-large-endowments-to-save-colleges/?sh=685fd933f0a9
I agree that large endowments will not save a university if disaster is there but what it does is elongate the road between "bumpy" to "Thelma and Louise".
This allows for less desperate decision making and strategic planning. No fuse is so long a bomb won't eventually go off if the flame is not extinguished but you still prefer a longer fuse to a shorter one.
I think the other piece is that not all universities are created equal. Some are going to always be shoe string operations that can only be kept afloat by a higher pool of potential students and so are going to be more apt to go under when conditions start to get stormy.
Thought about adding another metaphor but felt like 3 was enough..
I agree per ususal with WH. Net operating profit/loss is crucial.
Yes, the very marginal universities will keep failing and at a faster pace. And borrowing against your endowment is like a 2nd mortgage. You may get a reprieve briefly. But your hit to your bond rating raises your borrowing costs and you will spiral sooner than later.
We all love going in big in basketball and bet the house. it's a gutsy move. The enrollment needle may not move quickly but you could excite some donors (sports, but also others) with the Powell move.
Quote from: wh on June 27, 2023, 12:37:35 PM
Without knowing what their total student enrollment is, $34M is just a number. Whatever the amount (large or small, relatively), when a university is teetering on the edge of disaster, its endowment is not going to save it from financial ruin. It might provide limited temporary relief; however, if declining tuition and housing revenues fail to cover expenses for a long enough period, the university is doomed to failure. Insolvency results from expenses exceeding revenues over time, during which the university depletes available assets, can no longer borrow, and literally runs out of money to operate. I've attached a link to a Forbes article that explains why university endowments by design cannot save a university from insolvency.
Why Not Use Those Large Endowments To Save Colleges?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrosowsky/2020/06/01/why-not-use-those-large-endowments-to-save-colleges/?sh=685fd933f0a9
I think the key number used by colleges is endowment per student. The sited enrollment for Cabrini is 1500 so an endowment per student of $22,667. Valpo's 2022 endowment is listed at $365 million with stated enrollment of 2,939 in 2022 for an endowment per student of $124,192 or almost 5.5X bigger than Cabrini.
It certainly isn't a "everything is coming up roses" number but on the other hand it is an indication of the overall financial stability of an institution.
Of the colleges and universities that I've seen who have closed their doors, none had endowments anywhere close to Valpo's.
Another way to look at endowment is how much it funds annual operations. If Valpo's endowment is $365M, we can assume that maybe $250M is in Valpo's hands and generates annual distributions (endowments usually include completed and committed donations, plus some portion of the endowment may be earmarked for capital spending). Universities usually draw 5% of that portion of the endowment annually (based on the safe expected long-term ROI). Thus, my guess is that the endowment is contributing about $12.5M to each annual budget. The endowment is not the savior (nor should it be considered to be a savior), but it does provide a solid foundation. For these universities with really small endowments, they must fund their operations solely with tuition, room and board - which leaves far fewer options.
My daughter recently hired a young guy to fill a newly created artificial intelligence specialist position for her business service company. She asked me to stop in so he could demonstrate the positive impact of incorporating AI features into every day employee activities. Even at this early stage, the elevation in quality and productivity outcomes is eye popping, to the degree that we are revisiting our business growth strategy timeline.
As impressive as it was to witness firsthand, I am now acutely aware of the utter explosive power of AI to change everything we call "normal." Business analysts have been warning that in time AI is going to significantly impact white collar workload across the board and virtually eliminate the need for project managers, business analysts, copywriters, graphic designers, etc. Fewer white collar job opportunities will undoubtedly have a negative impact on college enrollment across the nation. So, now we can add AI to our list of concerns.
With AI emerging so fast, I am concerned for the investment advisors in my family whose expertise is in consuming and interpreting market data for their clients. While my family pros are fee-based their value could be questioned, and I am guessing that commission advantages to the advisor would get smoked out immediately. Index funds already play that role but not at the A.I. level.
Even if human intuition and insight can add value and surpass A.I. customers would have a full basis to sue the advisor if he went against A.I.and lost. It's a lot like being a baseball manager who follows analytics or like doctors who are forced into defensive prognoses and over testing.
No one can control where an innovation of this magnitude is going to take us. The best thing any of us can do is embrace it and learn how to make it our friend. Obviously, that means different things to different people, but do whatever it takes to get ahead of the curve. That goes for individuals, businesses, universities, everything. IMHO.
What happens with an endowment when a school closes? Presumably, much of the money would be earmarked for something other than expenses related to closing.
Quote from: valpo tundra on July 02, 2023, 11:44:26 PM
What happens with an endowment when a school closes? Presumably, much of the money would be earmarked for something other than expenses related to closing.
Nonprofit College Endowments after the School ClosesHere's to "closing Valpo" questions never becoming the reality at Valpo. :cheers:
As an aside, notice the correlation with the art sale issue.
"In most cases of nonprofit dissolution, executives and board members learn that the state attorney general is the nonprofit's ultimate arbiter and trustee. The AG must sign off on asset distribution and has standing to challenge any distribution that, in the AG's opinion, harms the state's citizens or denies them appropriate access to assets intended for a public purpose."
https://nonprofitquarterly.org/nonprofit-college-endowments-school-closes/
True, endowments do not, in and of themselves, save a school from going under. However, in addition to serving as a cash buffer during challenging times, they are decent proxies for whether a school has sufficient gravitas and reputation to make it through such times.
If you doubt this, every time you seen an announcement of a university closing, do a quick search to find out its endowment. You will see, for example, that the overwhelming share of schools that have closed during this difficult period have had endowments of considerably under $100m.
This hardly means that VU can go on cruise control. While I think the main casualties of this continuing shakeout in higher ed will indeed be the severely undercapitalized private universities, a few of the more well-funded schools -- regional private universities that made bad decisions -- may well join that list.
I got curious for where the big changes in enrollment were located and looked at the 2022-2023 enrollments on the website. Each year shows all four years of enrollment.
We talk about STEM growing and leading the way. I was shocked that 145 seniors graduated from the College of Engineering this Spring. In each of the classes following there were 75-80 students. I guess the nasty fall off was somehow caused by COVID?
Maybe the international kids went home in spring 2020 and the next 3 classes just stayed at the low level? Wow. Surprisingly the A&S enrollment was pretty steady over the 4 years ending 2022-2023. So what does Fall 2023 hold for VU enrollment?
Quote from: crusadermoe on July 11, 2023, 06:14:26 PM
I got curious for where the big changes in enrollment were located and looked at the 2022-2023 enrollments on the website. Each year shows all four years of enrollment.
We talk about STEM growing and leading the way. I was shocked that 145 seniors graduated from the College of Engineering this Spring. In each of the classes following there were 75-80 students. I guess the nasty fall off was somehow caused by COVID?
Maybe the international kids went home in spring 2020 and the next 3 classes just stayed at the low level? Wow. Surprisingly the A&S enrollment was pretty steady over the 4 years ending 2022-2023. So what does Fall 2023 hold for VU enrollment?
Are international students heavily represented in undergraduate Engineering enrollments at VU? If so, your surmise is probably correct. The pandemic just slammed international enrollments at many schools, including mine at the undergrad level. I don't know if those numbers are recovering overall.
I once heard an int'l program person say that tapping into the int'l market can be the opposite of trying to lose weight: So hard to gain, so easy to lose.
Quote from: David81 on July 12, 2023, 01:29:39 PMAre international students heavily represented in undergraduate Engineering enrollments at VU? If so, your surmise is probably correct. The pandemic just slammed international enrollments at many schools, including mine at the undergrad level. I don't know if those numbers are recovering overall.
This was posted by Crusader 05 On June 27:
Pal may be able to confirm this but what I've heard is that Enrollment is stable from last year in regards to undergrads and way up(like close to double) in regards to graduate students (unclear how much of that is international).
Quote from: vu72 on July 12, 2023, 02:37:22 PM
Quote from: David81 on July 12, 2023, 01:29:39 PMAre international students heavily represented in undergraduate Engineering enrollments at VU? If so, your surmise is probably correct. The pandemic just slammed international enrollments at many schools, including mine at the undergrad level. I don't know if those numbers are recovering overall.
This was posted by Crusader 05 On June 27:
Pal may be able to confirm this but what I've heard is that Enrollment is stable from last year in regards to undergrads and way up(like close to double) in regards to graduate students (unclear how much of that is international).
I would expect undergraduate enrollment to be about the same as last year, while it is too soon to predict graduate numbers.
Separate from the international student issues, programs with more rigorous quantitative work (STEM, but also business and others) have faced another challenge that has ultimately affected enrollment (particularly in very heavy quantitative fields like engineering). There has been a sharp decline in math and quantitative skills in students coming out of high school, with the most common reason being reduced rigor during the 1+ year period associated with COVID. If students don't feel confident in their quantitative skills, they are less likely to choose engineering. A university like Valpo could find an advantage (particularly over public universities) if they can show ways to help prospective students overcome this limitation...while not reducing the rigor of the engineering program.
Quote from: vu84v2 on July 12, 2023, 05:16:03 PM
Separate from the international student issues, programs with more rigorous quantitative work (STEM, but also business and others) have faced another challenge that has ultimately affected enrollment (particularly in very heavy quantitative fields like engineering). There has been a sharp decline in math and quantitative skills in students coming out of high school, with the most common reason being reduced rigor during the 1+ year period associated with COVID. If students don't feel confident in their quantitative skills, they are less likely to choose engineering. A university like Valpo could find an advantage (particularly over public universities) if they can show ways to help prospective students overcome this limitation...while not reducing the rigor of the engineering program.
vu84v2, taking your observation + a conversation I had this evening with a friend who teaches high school in a Massachusetts suburb where the kids have pretty strong academic records on the whole.....she said the COVID impact hit math competencies especially hard at virtually every grade level, which means this could be felt for many years as each class moves up -- the gift that keeps on giving.
I'm wondering if it would be smart for schools to think outside of the box on this, such as summer intensives or "academies" for students who want to be competitive for college majors requiring strong math + quantitative skills. If they're very honest about the impact of the shutdown period on these competencies and basically blame it on COVID, that will help to remove any stigma (if one exists) from participating in such a program.
While there will be some isolated cases in which high schools and K-8 schools will think outside the box and implement ways to increase high school students' competence in quantitative skills, I am not confident (on the whole) that high schools (as well as K-8) will meaningfully address this problem...and even less confident that they will address this problem in a timely manner. There are many reasons for my doubts: prioritization of this problem versus other problems (perceived and real), cost, availability of qualified teachers, lack of incentive and outcome-based pay structures for teachers, etc. Further, it will need to be addressed at many levels of K-12 over a long period of time.
Thus, I think that universities will need to address the two problems - reduced interest and reduced quantitative competence - that affect enrollment in STEM and other quantitative disciplines. I think that summer intensives or "academies" offered by universities can address the first problem, but these need to be 'nearly free' to prospective students. Charge a reasonable fee for an on-campus academy that is fully refunded (perhaps with a partial refund of travel expenses) if the student ultimately attends the university. The second problem is far more challenging to solve, especially for the quantitative programs with more intense rigor. One solution is to adjust the curriculum plan for students - letting them take a course like pre-Calculus (which would count as an open elective) prior to taking the required Calculus course(s), and then adjusting the current course plan to accommodate students having some delays for meeting the pre-requisites for other courses. Pre-Calculus (or other classes necessary to get students caught up on quantitative skills) could also be offered in the summer prior to their first year or even prior to high school graduation. As I stated before, I believe taking steps like this could create some degree of an advantage for Valpo because public universities may face some barriers to offering these solutions.
Quote from: valpo22 on July 14, 2023, 08:32:16 AM
Agreed, COVID really damaged math study skills. Students got used to just sort of watching videos passively and thinking they understood how the numbers were moving around -- but did not learn how to actually practice math problems themselves on paper, which means they can't actually do it.
I would rephrase this a bit differently. COVID created a situation in which the math skills of K-12 students could really be damaged and the education system (and, to some degree, parents) did not prioritize finding alternative ways to prevent the damage. The result is the significantly reduced understanding that you describe. As I said before, I am not confident that the K-12 schools will address this problem and, thus, universities will need to find ways to address the problem.
That's awesome. Well at least the highly motivated kids will pull through and become STEM specialists. And at least the others will become excellent gamers.
Do you suppose the Asian countries shut down their school diligence in March 2020 and just let kids just mail it in or keep the grade they had earned as of Feb. 28? Possibly. If not, then gosh I wonder why we lag as a country.
Quote from: crusadermoe on July 14, 2023, 02:11:29 PM
That's awesome. Well at least the highly motivated kids will pull through and become STEM specialists. And at least the others will become excellent gamers.
Do you suppose the Asian countries shut down their school diligence in March 2020 and just let kids just mail it in or keep the grade they had earned as of Feb. 28? Possibly. If not, then gosh I wonder why we lag as a country.
Though it's absolutely true that many Asian countries are outdoing the U.S. in terms of STEM education, our K-12 challenges are hardly limited to that. Basic writing skills, understanding of history, and general cultural literacy join with STEM in being among the areas where we're seeing a widening gap between successful and unsuccessful students. Lax standards, social promotion, teaching to the test, larger class sizes, an explosion of accommodation requests/IEPs, and many other factors are in play.
Oftentimes, the teachers are caught in the middle between federal/state/local educational policies and parents who are either absentee/negligent or helicoptering/overly monitoring. It's no wonder why, despite decent pay in some school districts, teacher shortages are rampant. Some of our best teachers are leaving the profession prematurely. These seeds had been planted before COVID came along, but the pandemic educational environment was the last straw for many of them.
Valpo will have a challenging time keeping enrollment at the same level as last fall because of the sizable Senior class.
Statistics from Fall of 2022 included 576 Freshman, 537 Sophomores, 533 juniors and 700 Seniors! The previous fall it was worse with 586 Freshman while the Senior class had 800! I'm hoping we level off in the next couple of years and then start growing again, but that will be pretty tough as the enrollment cliff hits in 2025.
Quote from: vu72 on July 20, 2023, 01:21:44 PM
Valpo will have a challenging time keeping enrollment at the same level as last fall because of the sizable Senior class.
Statistics from Fall of 2022 included 576 Freshman, 537 Sophomores, 533 juniors and 700 Seniors! The previous fall it was worse with 586 Freshman while the Senior class had 800! I'm hoping we level off in the next couple of years and then start growing again, but that will be pretty tough as the enrollment cliff hits in 2025.
Schools across the country are still working through their "COVID classes," with notable undergraduate enrollment drops, and many are struggling to recover their pre-COVID numbers. Many of the annual budget deficits at regional private universities are due to this shortfall, which is why we're likely to hear about deficits for at least another two years. (Think pandemic timeline: Most of last year's seniors started fall 2019, most juniors 2020, most sophomores 2021, freshmen 2022.)
Yes, that is sobering. A small class starves you for a full four years. We have to rinse three out of the enrollment total. Wow.
So to clarify the "cliff" in 2025, does that mean that fall 2025 is the first small national freshman class? Or does the small class land nationally on campus in fall 2026?
And of course the body count is just one part of the financial equation. The vital short-term question is how much revenue per student will the university receive?
And how does that net tuition revenue compare to this year's senior class and to the others? Naturally that is information we won't see publicized.
Quote from: crusadermoe on July 25, 2023, 03:04:40 PM
Yes, that is sobering. A small class starves you for a full four years. We have to rinse three out of the enrollment total. Wow.
So to clarify the "cliff" in 2025, does that mean that fall 2025 is the first small national freshman class? Or does the small class land nationally on campus in fall 2026?
This article spells it out pretty well. It will START in 2025!
https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/looming-enrollment-cliff-poses-serious-threat-to-colleges/#:~:text=Thanks%20to%20lower%20birthrates%20during,geographic%20region%20and%20institutional%20type.
I think that most universities need to assume smaller entering classes for the foreseeable future, for at least three reasons, the first being solely about the numbers, the other two presenting very challenging social & economic aspects:
1. The demographic enrollment cliff, the seeds of which were planted (actually, not planted :lol:) years ago;
2. A growing drumbeat questioning the merits of a college degree and the costs-benefits of obtaining one;
3. The now-established and very concerning dynamic of young men stuck in a "failing to thrive" mode, e.g., not pursuing post-secondary opportunities that have been traditional door-openers to economic success, including college, trade school, or military service.
There's no reason to think that VU can avoid these realities.
Quote from: David81 on July 28, 2023, 12:38:36 PM3. The now-established and very concerning dynamic of young men stuck in a "failing to thrive" mode, e.g., not pursuing post-secondary opportunities that have been traditional door-openers to economic success, including college, trade school, or military service.
All the more reason to perhaps add back a men's soccer team or LaCrosse team. A school like Evansville, which dropped its football team years ago, would not doubt love to have an additional 120 men on campus. At present Evansville is showing 60.36% of students are female while Valpo is not much better, showing 58% female.
Quote from: vu72 on July 28, 2023, 01:31:26 PM
Quote from: David81 on July 28, 2023, 12:38:36 PM3. The now-established and very concerning dynamic of young men stuck in a "failing to thrive" mode, e.g., not pursuing post-secondary opportunities that have been traditional door-openers to economic success, including college, trade school, or military service.
All the more reason to perhaps add back a men's soccer team or LaCrosse team. A school like Evansville, which dropped its football team years ago, would not doubt love to have an additional 120 men on campus. At present Evansville is showing 60.36% of students are female while Valpo is not much better, showing 58% female.
I know the general consensus is that Valpo's non-scholarship football team is a cash cow, but it's not that obvious to me. If that were the case, why wouldn't Evansville have one? Or Bradley? Or Belmont? Creighton? DePaul? Detroit? Gonzaga? Green Bay? Loyola? Grand Canyon? Marquette? Milwaukee? Oral Roberts? Providence, St. Louis, UIC, Wichita State? VCU? Xavier? Many others?
What's the male/female ratios at each of the schools on the list? Perhaps they are fine with a predominantly female enrollment. If males don't want it, someone has to fill the gap, right? Hey, a tuition dollar is a dollar. But if some of them are close to 50/50, there are lessons to be learned.
Anyway, as women gain increased education and credentials, it'll be reasonable to believe that a shift in the power curve in culture, business, politics, education, medicine, etc. is inevitable.
Might not be that bad — indigenous North Americans were matriarchal and they existed that way for a couple thousand years. (Yeah, I know, the males still waged the wars ::)).
Quote from: wh on July 28, 2023, 05:36:03 PM
Quote from: vu72 on July 28, 2023, 01:31:26 PM
Quote from: David81 on July 28, 2023, 12:38:36 PM3. The now-established and very concerning dynamic of young men stuck in a "failing to thrive" mode, e.g., not pursuing post-secondary opportunities that have been traditional door-openers to economic success, including college, trade school, or military service.
All the more reason to perhaps add back a men's soccer team or LaCrosse team. A school like Evansville, which dropped its football team years ago, would not doubt love to have an additional 120 men on campus. At present Evansville is showing 60.36% of students are female while Valpo is not much better, showing 58% female.
I know the general consensus is that Valpo's non-scholarship football team is a cash cow, but it's not that obvious to me. If that were the case, why wouldn't Evansville have one? Or Bradley? Or Belmont? Creighton? DePaul? Detroit? Gonzaga? Green Bay? Loyola? Grand Canyon? Marquette? Milwaukee? Oral Roberts? Providence, St. Louis, UIC, Wichita State? VCU? Xavier? Many others?
It's a good question. At least for schools located in cities, space for a stadium & facilities is a big factor. Plus, you pretty much have to guarantee housing for each player, and for urban universities where dorm beds are in demand, that may not be easy.
I would be interested in what the ballpark cost is to maintain a non-scholarship college football program, then running those numbers against projected revenue from football players' tuition, room, and board (minus institutional grants and scholarships for need and merit) and revenue from ticket sales.
Non-scolly FB is probably not a cash cow in the sense that it pulls in gobs of revenue and makes gigantic profits. But it does net the uni more than it invests in it annually. I recall a similar discussion a while back but couldn't find it. Anyway, I think I recall FB as being around $100k in the black because the 100 or so players pay tuition (vs. the uni paying for FB scholarships) and the income from buy games. But the main reason FB is viable is that it brings in around 100 males every year. Without FB, the male/female balance would be further skewed female.
There are 96 players on the Valpo men's football team, and they are led by one head coach and 10 assistant coaches. As an interesting note on their academic performance, the team's APR is 956.
Valpo brought in $1,243,116 in revenue from its football program while paying out $1,158,267 in expenses. So, the program was a moneymaker for the school, bringing in $84,849 in net profit. Mark this down as a good thing.
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/sports/#:~:text=There%20are%2096%20players%20on%20the%20Valpo%20men%E2%80%99s,football%20program%20while%20paying%20out%20%241%2C158%2C267%20in%20expenses.
Quote from: vu72 on July 29, 2023, 11:01:19 AM
There are 96 players on the Valpo men's football team, and they are led by one head coach and 10 assistant coaches. As an interesting note on their academic performance, the team's APR is 956.
Valpo brought in $1,243,116 in revenue from its football program while paying out $1,158,267 in expenses. So, the program was a moneymaker for the school, bringing in $84,849 in net profit. Mark this down as a good thing.
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/sports/#:~:text=There%20are%2096%20players%20on%20the%20Valpo%20men%E2%80%99s,football%20program%20while%20paying%20out%20%241%2C158%2C267%20in%20expenses.
I generally agree with this conclusion, but we need to be careful about conclusions associated with the revenue side of what is reported by universities for each athletic program. I recently had a discussion with our Assistant AD and he said that, while the reported expenses are pretty accurate, there are a lot of intangibles figured into the revenue side. This is the reason why many teams ultimately report revenues equal to expenses in men's basketball....they add in some level of "intangible value" for that year.
valpo22 - Great post. A particularly important point is "subcultures". A university needs a strong environment across an array of subcultures.
Quote from: valpo22 on July 29, 2023, 01:57:39 PM
Y'all on this e-board have convinced me that the sports intangibles do matter for institutional survival.
I used to think sports was a dubious use of money when so many other (more mission-essential?) parts of the university were even more severely under-invested and cratering fast. But morale is a critical issue, and Valpo needs to take morale aide from wherever we can get it. We benefit not only from the sports teams bringing in X number of students but also bringing up the % of students who have a sense of connection, embededeness, or general satisfaction in being at Valpo. Especially with the rising ratio of commuter students and even residential students just sitting alone in their rooms on social media or video games, the university really needs students who are engaged in some kind of on-campus life.
Valpo has to overcome a very tough location that lots of other better-located schools don't have to deal with, so the sports teams, Greek life, Theatre/Arts subcultures, etc are all the more important for making students feel like there is still some community value in a 4-yr college experience (different than online, community college, or just commuting to mega state school campus for classes). The sports players also bring some regional diversity to the student body, since sometimes they are willing to come from the non-Midwest for the chance to play sports.
Even if the sports teams are financially a wash, I'm sure they are essential to retaining a sense of communal experience.
I agree 100 percent. VU's location makes its campus experience even more important. A student can't step off campus and experience a metropolitan area or a classic college town. (Though on the latter, the surrounding Valparaiso community offers much more than it did generations ago.) A rich extracurricular and co-curricular life of many dimensions makes VU a much more appealing destination.
VU would be a sadly diminished place without its sports program. On that measure, sports don't have to be money makers. If they become too much of a budget drain, then perhaps hard decisions need to be made. But cutting programs can become a race to the bottom, as it does in other aspects of university life.
This rationale justifies expenditures in other aspects of student life, as well, including music & performing arts, student publications & media, and student organizations generally.
Quote from: valpo22 on July 29, 2023, 01:57:39 PMThe sports players also bring some regional diversity to the student body, since sometimes they are willing to come from the non-Midwest for the chance to play sports.
I recently took the time to look at each sport and what state the players came from. I found that Valpo athletes hail from 33 different states and five foreign countries. Football alone has players from 21 different states.
Many talked on the other thread about the Board making draconian, rapid and "ill-advised" cuts in spring 2020. CoVID was unique and had so many unforeseen variables. So maybe it is a unicorn.
However, can you imagine the frustration of a board member from the business world who wants to help turn the battleship. Every spring you need to make fiscal decisions and you want to make them early enough to transition faculty in a fair way into the following fiscal/academic year. So you have a short window.
Compounding the problem is you can only really adjust to the revenue of 1/4 of the picture (one entering class.) So....you sit there in March every year with a batch of applicants and inquiries. You take a shot at an income forecast with major caveats like students waiting out selective university decisions while using Valpo as a hedge school at 3rd or 4th choice. And you don't know which kids are "on the bubble" so to speak. Then you go back to even less helpful data for the balance of the year until you get to Feb-March again. It has to drive CEO-types crazy to have few levers in times other than Spring.
It's certainly normal stuff for higher ed. My point is simply that the battleship turns very slowly for all the reasons we cite. And you can only turn the steering wheel once per year.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 01, 2023, 11:39:00 AM
Many talked on the other thread about the Board making draconian, rapid and "ill-advised" cuts in spring 2020. CoVID was unique and had so many unforeseen variables. So maybe it is a unicorn.
However, can you imagine the frustration of a board member from the business world who wants to help turn the battleship. Every spring you need to make fiscal decisions and you want to make them early enough to transition faculty in a fair way into the following fiscal/academic year. So you have a short window.
Compounding the problem is you can only really adjust to the revenue of 1/4 of the picture (one entering class.) So....you sit there in March every year with a batch of applicants and inquiries. You take a shot at an income forecast with major caveats like students waiting out selective university decisions while using Valpo as a hedge school at 3rd or 4th choice. And you don't know which kids are "on the bubble" so to speak. Then you go back to even less helpful data for the balance of the year until you get to Feb-March again. It has to drive CEO-types crazy to have few levers in times other than Spring.
That's why having people with both higher ed admin and teaching experience on the board helps a lot, i.e., to smooth over the lack of familiarity and periodic discomfort of planning around an academic year, without unconditionally relying on reports from the President and Provost.
Well, seeing that move-in day is next Saturday, my guess is someone has an idea as to how the enrollment numbers are shaping up!
Quote from: vu72 on August 15, 2023, 07:52:40 AM
Well, seeing that move-in day is next Saturday, my guess is someone has an idea as to how the enrollment numbers are shaping up!
As of now, I would guess the final numbers will be close to last year but likely down a touch, maybe a few percentage points.
Quote from: valpopal on August 15, 2023, 08:22:44 AM
Quote from: vu72 on August 15, 2023, 07:52:40 AM
Well, seeing that move-in day is next Saturday, my guess is someone has an idea as to how the enrollment numbers are shaping up!
As of now, I would guess the final numbers will be close to last year but likely down a touch, maybe a few percentage points.
Danger ahead?
Quote from: vu72 on February 28, 2023, 08:34:05 AM
Rating Action: Moody's downgrades Valparaiso University's (IN) to Baa2; outlook revised to stable
27 Feb 2023
New York, February 27, 2023 -- Moody's Investors Service has downgraded Valparaiso University, IN's issuer and revenue bond ratings to Baa2 from Baa1. As of June 30, 2022, Valparaiso had $96.2 million of outstanding revenue bond debt. The outlook has been revised to stable from negative.
RATINGS RATIONALE
The downgrade to Baa2 reflects a large structural budget imbalance, with weak operating performance and debt service coverage likely over the next several years. Liquidity is already very thin, inclusive of draws under a working capital line, and will erode further, with the pace of decline dependent on the ability to successfully implement in a timely way initiatives to realign its program and expense structure with enrollment amid a difficult regional student market. The university generated a nearly 8% operating deficit in fiscal 2022 and the deficit for fiscal 2023 is forecast to be substantially worse, with below 1.0x debt service coverage from regular operations.
Despite these challenges, Valparaiso University's Baa2 remains supported by its very good total wealth, good levels of spendable cash and investments, and a recognized regional brand bolstering a still good strategic position. Philanthropic support is relatively good with three-year gift revenue averaging over $15 million. Despite a use of some liquid reserves, spendable cash and investments continues to provide solid debt coverage at nearly 1.4x. An operating base of over $112 million provides some expense flexibility and potential for operating performance improvement through expense reductions. Additionally, the university has gained some traction in graduate programs, including nursing and information technology.
RATING OUTLOOK
The outlook is currently stable incorporating the university's identified budget initiatives, which have some prospects for success on both the revenue and expense side. The stable outlook also incorporates broader wealth levels that provide some financial flexibility to implement plans. The university's management team is relatively new without a yet established track record of reversing the university's multi-year enrollment and financial challenges. Inability to make clear progress in fiscal 2024, including meeting enrollment targets in Fall 2023 would have either rating or outlook implications.
FACTORS THAT COULD LEAD TO AN UPGRADE OF THE RATINGS
- Notable strengthening of brand and strategic position, reflected in growing enrollment and net tuition revenue and further growth in philanthropy
- Significant improvement in annual operating performance driven by net tuition revenue growth and expense reductions
- Material growth in total wealth and financial reserves with significantly stronger liquidity
FACTORS THAT COULD LEAD TO A DOWNGRADE OF THE RATINGS
- Failure to make progress towards stabilizing enrollment in fall 2023 with growth in net student revenue
- Inability to make substantial progress towards narrowing operating imbalances in fiscal 2024 and beyond, with consistent debt service coverage above 1.2x.
- Further reduction in unrestricted liquidity or broader wealth levels
LEGAL SECURITY
Outstanding debt is all unsecured general obligations of the university. The J.P. Morgan Chase line of credit includes a financial covenant that unrestricted cash and investments to debt be at least 1.0x. The covenanted ratio stood at 1.5x in fiscal 2022. There are no debt reserve fund requirements.
Moody's is rugged and crystal clear. To clarify, ...will the freshman class be smaller than last year?
Quoting a prior post from VU72: ".....Statistics from Fall of 2022 included 576 Freshman, 537 Sophomores, 533 juniors and 700 Seniors! The previous fall it was worse with 586 Freshman while the Senior class had 800!.....
is anyone else getting Facebook notices like this?
Valpo guarantees an $25,000 tuition grant for a 3.0+GPA and with no test sccores required. The private college tuition model is insane and Valpo must be desperately seeking applications. The revenue per student is officially capped.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 15, 2023, 12:31:44 PM
Moody's is rugged and crystal clear. To clarify, ...will the freshman class be smaller than last year?
Quoting a prior post from VU72: ".....Statistics from Fall of 2022 included 576 Freshman, 537 Sophomores, 533 juniors and 700 Seniors! The previous fall it was worse with 586 Freshman while the Senior class had 800!.....
is anyone else getting Facebook notices like this?
Valpo guarantees an $25,000 tuition grant for a 3.0+GPA and with no test sccores required. The private college tuition model is insane and Valpo must be desperately seeking applications. The revenue per student is officially capped.
The serious differences over several years between graduating seniors and incoming freshmen are very concerning.
I have not seen any such Facebook notices (as I am not on Facebook). But, if that statement is being made, a grant is an amount that covers part of the full cost. Thus, it would be a $25K total discount (likely $6.25K per year over 4 years) to the full tuition price and would create a ceiling (of sorts) that is much higher than $25K per year. I am not saying this is necessarily good, but (if true) it is likely not as bad as you suggest.
Ok, good point. You must be right about offering $25,000 ACROSS 4 YEARS....
But the college price wars of private tuition discounting is a race to the bottom that gets faster every year. And when you sticker your tuition at $45-50,000 you have to drop a long way to compete with the public univs. My wife and I found huge discounts dangled by private schools to our daughters. Naturally they were called "scholarships."
I wonder if someone like Valpo22 can clarify whether the Facebook VU offer is $25k per single year or $25k given out across 4 years. Because it also adds that students can apply for "as much as $30,000." If I am a parent of a stellar student I wouldn't find a $5,000 variance in my favor very compelling. I may be reading it wrong. But if I am reading it that way, chances are that others may too.
It can't be spread over four years. The posted cost of attendance is $62,700 with an estimated average scholarship (discount) of $38,000. It has to be per year for the $25,000. I get a lot of stuff on Facebook from Valpo but haven't seen that one.
https://www.valpo.edu/student-financial-services/tuition-fees/
Fine Print at the bottom of the soccer girl image, may not in all versions. It says "automatic $25,000 if you have a a 3.0 GPA"
In our high school climate of grade points, that is a non-trouble maker with a pulse.
Sadly, it also implies that you get "up to" another $30,000 if you have merit. Again, that is what I am reading in the message. It may not be intended to be understood that way.
The deck is stacked against increasing enrollment in so many ways. Add this to the list. I just read a NY Times article full of statistical data supporting that fertility rates in N. America are in steep decline. Reasons range from getting married later, having children later, all the way to single men sitting at home masturbating to porn instead of out and about looking for that someone special, and everything in between.
Now I am seeing the Facebook ad constantly in my feed. It says Valpo Value....... (soccer player girl photo.) Automatic $24,000." I saw it 3x yesterday.
Again.....private college tuition is a pretty absurd business model. To use an analogy, you are a car dealer and you list a sticker price for a full-size car (Toyota Camry?) on your website at $55,000. But then to attract buyers to your lot or your website you shoot out Facebook ads offering a $24,000 automatic discount to ANY BUYER with a valid drivers license and a pulse (analogy to a 3.0 GPA HS student.)
I guess it is the Kohl's mentality of paying $4 for a pair of socks listed at $20 per pair at Kohl's. On the receipt it says, "You just saved 80% on your purchase today." My wife and I always chuckle. It's a very dangerous race to the bottom in pricing.
Quote from: wh on August 16, 2023, 02:23:40 PM
The deck is stacked against increasing enrollment in so many ways. Add this to the list. I just read a NY Times article full of statistical data supporting that fertility rates in N. America are in steep decline. Reasons range from getting married later, having children later, all the way to single men sitting at home masturbating to porn instead of out and about looking for that someone special, and everything in between.
Obviously, this current trend (that is real) will not impact universities for another 18 years - but there was a birth rate decline during the recession in 2007-2009 that will imminently impact universities.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 17, 2023, 11:00:53 AM
Now I am seeing the Facebook ad constantly in my feed. It says Valpo Value....... (soccer player girl photo.) Automatic $24,000." I saw it 3x yesterday.
Again.....private college tuition is a pretty absurd business model. To use an analogy, you are a car dealer and you list a sticker price for a full-size car (Toyota Camry?) on your website at $55,000. But then to attract buyers to your lot or your website you shoot out Facebook ads offering a $24,000 automatic discount to ANY BUYER with a valid drivers license and a pulse (analogy to a 3.0 GPA HS student.)
I guess it is the Kohl's mentality of paying $4 for a pair of socks listed at $20 per pair at Kohl's. On the receipt it says, "You just saved 80% on your purchase today." My wife and I always chuckle. It's a very dangerous race to the bottom in pricing.
Hey, don't laugh. My wife and our 2 married daughters love Kohl's. I remember a time when my daughter bought a bunch of school clothes for the kids, presented all her coupons and Kohl's bucks at checkout, and agreed to open a Kohl's account to receive yet another 10% discount. After completing her purchase, she immediately walked over to the courtesy desk and cancelled the Kohl's account she had just opened. :)
When it's all said and done, I think Kohl's final discounted prices are highly competitive. As for my wife and daughters, I admire their tenacity, but it's way too much work to interest me.
I'm going to beat the dead horse again, but Valpo Admin missed the mark in not retaining and promoting the right people.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 15, 2023, 12:31:44 PMs anyone else getting Facebook notices like this?
Valpo guarantees an $25,000 tuition grant for a 3.0+GPA and with no test sccores required. The private college tuition model is insane and Valpo must be desperately seeking applications. The revenue per student is officially capped.
I did see the following posted today:
Put your future into motion by applying to Valpo. The application is quick and free, plus you'll automatically be considered for scholarships up to $30,000 per year when you submit your application.
There are two of them. Mine is correct and so is yours. Watch for the automatic $25k in your feed.
That reeks of desperation honestly.
Why are there so many people in this world who just want to trash Valpo at every turn? Jesus, this school lives in the head of people rent free. There is currently a former assistant football coach who hops on Twitter at all hours of the night and goes on diatribes about how bad his experience was at Valpo. The guy is currently a bartender and worked at Valpo for less than two months. Yet it's been three months and he's still firing off tweets about it at 4 in the morning. Then there are the people on this board who chime in every couple months to let us know that the wrong hires were made. Fine. We get it.
Valpo has ALWAYS been a school that has given a ton in aid. It has a high sticker price, but it has a high aid rate as well. I guess that reeks of desperation?
I'm just so sick of the negativity all the time. The students walk back in the classroom tomorrow. I don't know how many there are, but I know the ones that are here are going to get our all.
Had a chance to watch part of the opening convocation. Enrollment was announced at 600 freshman and transfers and 200 grad students, from 45 states and 11 foreign countries.
President Padilla made one heck of a speech. Good stuff on an apparently pretty warm day. Heck it was 105 again here in Texas. :(
Paul wake up. Not everything is sunshine and roses. Valpo is on bad trajectory and you can't say otherwise
Quote from: vu72 on August 22, 2023, 05:43:20 PM
Had a chance to watch part of the opening convocation. Enrollment was announced at 600 freshman and transfers and 200 grad students, from 45 states and 11 foreign countries.
Before anyone panics, I'm pretty sure this was a misspoken moment and the 600 number just applies to freshmen (not freshmen and transfers), there are additionally more than one hundred transfers as well as more than 200 grad students.
What's your source on the actual numbers then? Allison Urbanzek (sp?) in the Regisrtrar has an exact number. Plus the true numbers will be once census hits after week 3
Quote from: VUSupport on August 22, 2023, 06:08:32 PM
Paul wake up. Not everything is sunshine and roses. Valpo is on bad trajectory and you can't say otherwise
First, let's remind ourselves, once again, that just about every college and university community outside of a charmed (=very wealthy) circle has concerns about its future. In the past 15 years, the higher ed world (like the rest of the world) has been battered by a global recession and a global pandemic. Demographics indicate a shrinking pool of traditional age students arriving sooner than later, and there's only so many distance learning master's degree programs that can be invented to fill the revenue gap. Moreover, our civic dialogue is a mess, in ways that are affecting or will affect choices that prospective students and faculty make. And in case you haven't noticed it, the earth itself has been delivering a load of very extreme climate and weather events this summer.
It's a pretty unsettling time.
Paul's annoyance may reflect what some folks regard as a sunshine and roses attitude about Valpo. But you know, for all of its challenges, VU still delivers a quality undergraduate education, better than a whole lot of places. Believe me, during my formal association with VU going back to 1977, I have not been easy on the institution, and there was a long stretch during which I was basically estranged from it. But I have come to truly appreciate its strengths. This university still gives a hoot about undergraduate learning and giving its students a good start in life.
If you have doubts about what I'm saying, then take a look at the special issue of The Torch that I linked to last December, a collection of essays from students, faculty, staff, and others on the theme, "I am Valpo." (Paul is among the contributors.) At the level the counts the most, things are still pretty darn good. That doesn't mean we disregard the many real challenges facing the institution, but it does remind us that the institution itself is worth supporting:
http://www.valpotorch.com/eedition/page_456dcb28-1c5f-5878-87be-dea654b91dfe.html (http://www.valpotorch.com/eedition/page_456dcb28-1c5f-5878-87be-dea654b91dfe.html)
Quote from: VUSupport on August 22, 2023, 07:12:24 PM
What's your source on the actual numbers then? Allison Urbanzek (sp?) in the Regisrtrar has an exact number. Plus the true numbers will be once census hits after week 3
I am just reporting that I understand the actual numbers of freshmen
and transfers to be just over 700, not 600 as I believe was misstated at the convocation. (As it is, the correct final numbers of almost 600 freshmen and a little over 100 transfers is less than hoped, but if the
freshmen plus transfer numbers totaled only 600, we'd all be justified to worry greatly.) The graduate number was properly communicated at over 200.
Quote from: valpopal on August 23, 2023, 09:59:13 AM
Quote from: VUSupport on August 22, 2023, 07:12:24 PM
What's your source on the actual numbers then? Allison Urbanzek (sp?) in the Regisrtrar has an exact number. Plus the true numbers will be once census hits after week 3
I am just reporting that I understand the actual numbers of freshmen and transfers to be just over 700, not 600 as I believe was misstated at the convocation. (As it is, the correct final numbers of almost 600 freshmen and a little over 100 transfers is less than hoped, but if the freshmen plus transfer numbers totaled only 600, we'd all be justified to worry greatly.) The graduate number was properly communicated at over 200.
Received the following note from the Vice President of Enrollment and Marketing just 2 minutes after my above post:
"As the semester begins, we are excited to welcome over 600 new Beacons and over 100 transfers to campus this fall!"
Yes, so glad to see that the VP's true headcount is 600 Freshmen PLUS 100 transfers. Padilla verbalizing a wrong number wasn't great.
The board and Moody's will be most affected by the trend in ACTUAL VU INCOME gained from tuition from this group.
Fall 2022 student counts on VU website (per VU72 a few weeks ago)
576 Freshman
537 Sophomores
533 Juniors
700 Seniors (replaced this Fall by 600 freshmen)
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 23, 2023, 05:27:59 PM
Yes, so glad to see that the VP's true headcount is 600 Freshmen PLUS 100 transfers. Padilla verbalizing a wrong number wasn't great.
The board and Moody's will be most affected by the trend in ACTUAL VU INCOME gained from tuition from this group.
Fall 2022 student counts on VU website (per VU72 a few weeks ago)
576 Freshman
537 Sophomores
533 Juniors
700 Seniors (replaced this Fall by 600 freshmen)
100 incoming transfers is just a number until we until we how many undergrads from '22-23 aren't returning this fall. The difference between the 2 (incoming vs. outgoing) will tell the story.
Would like to see the net tuition numbers of each class cohorts. That's the true balance indicator if your enrollment numbers are down.
Also why would Padilla say wrong enrollment figures. You'd think both the president and VP of Enrollment would be on the same page.
A large transfer class can help to offset the built-in "COVID classes" numbers that we've discussed before. Fingers crossed.
From the VU website:
TRANSFER TO VALPO
"Every year, Valpo eagerly welcomes approximately 150 transfer students. In fact, roughly 30% of our students enter as transfers."
https://www.valpo.edu/admission-aid/transfer/
Quote from: wh on August 23, 2023, 09:52:09 PM
From the VU website:
TRANSFER TO VALPO
"Every year, Valpo eagerly welcomes approximately 150 transfer students. In fact, roughly 30% of our students enter as transfers."
https://www.valpo.edu/admission-aid/transfer/
OK, my VU transcript will reveal that math was not my forte. But that strikes me as being website boilerplate with fuzzy math.
Let's assume a total undergraduate enrollment of 2,400 (last fall's figure: 2,355 https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/Headcount_FA22.pdf (https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/Headcount_FA22.pdf))
That 30% assertion would mean some 720 undergraduates enrolled via transfer. They'd need a lot more than an average of 150 transfer students annually to get to that number...rather, some 240 transfers assuming everyone comes to VU after 1 year elsewhere.
In other words, the numbers don't add up.
Quote from: VUSupport on August 23, 2023, 07:30:45 PMAlso why would Padilla say wrong enrollment figures.
It wasn't Padilla, it was Provost Johnson. Still a valid question however.
Net transfers is the key number - not incoming transfers. Further, net tuition (or discount rate) is another key number.
In regards to Provost Johnson, anyone can misspeak when in front of an audience. I hope that Valpo sends an internal correction (or just the right numbers).
I sure hate to pick at numbers or be paranoid. But the Provost is an engineer and it's hard for me to think he slipped a tongue on such a key number.
My only concern is that the VP of enrollment literally said "600 new crusaders," and not "600 freshmen." Let's hope it meant freshmen. But since that email was meant as a key clarification of such an important matter, it should have been more precise than using the term, "new crusaders." Even though the census is the final number, 100 and "almost 600" are very round numbers, it could have at least rounded to the nearest 10.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 24, 2023, 09:14:40 AM
I sure hate to pick at numbers or be paranoid. But the Provost is an engineer and it's hard for me to think he slipped a tongue on such a key number.
My only concern is that the VP of enrollment literally said "600 new crusaders," and not "600 freshmen." Let's hope it meant freshmen. But since that email was meant as a key clarification of such an important matter, it should have been more precise than using the term, "new crusaders." Even though the census is the final number, 100 and "almost 600" are very round numbers, it could have at least rounded to the nearest 10.
(Laughing) As someone with an engineering degree, I have had more than a few slips of the tongue. But, again, it is important for Valpo to clarify the figure.
Did he actually say "new crusaders"? That would be an even bigger slip of the tongue.
I won't bother with the "crusader" comment.
Here is an article which only adds to the enrollment questions. The article says one thing and the attached information from the University says another. Let's take the Universities numbers as fact:
Again, I presume these include both freshman and transfers which totals 779. I doubt Christ College students would be double counted. If you add another 200 grad students the numbers start to look much better.
https://valpo.life/article/valparaiso-university-welcomes-a-new-class-to-campus/
Oh, and the GPA of 3.72 is impressive as well!
Oops. It said "600 new Beacons."
We can dream that some day soon our "new beacons" (all bodies") will serve as a "Thousand Points of Light" each fall
At least it is a bright group? I am just getting started....
The confusion continues. The message distributed by the Vice President for Enrollment and Marketing yesterday stating there are "over 600 new beacons and over 100 transfers" further listed the following breakdown of numbers for freshmen and transfers:
CAS 290
COB 94
COE 126
NHP 183
CC. 86
Total 779 (maybe as low as 693 if all CC students are accounted for as majors elsewhere)
Yet, on the university website, the page linked below also dated yesterday uses the Provost's language: "Of the 602 students joining the campus community, 94 are coming in as transfer students...." I believe this language is an error and should be 602 freshmen plus 94 transfers (696 total), since I have been informed the current freshmen plus transfer numbers more closely resemble 700 and the grad numbers exceed 200. https://www.valpo.edu/news/2023/08/23/valparaiso-university-welcomes-a-new-class-to-campus/ (https://www.valpo.edu/news/2023/08/23/valparaiso-university-welcomes-a-new-class-to-campus/)
The Valpo Life article posted by vu72 seems to use the university web page numbers, but I believe it is a bit more accurate in its language, separating "over 600 new students" and then listing transfers as just "students": "Of the students joining the campus community, 94 are coming in as transfer students." However, the numbers in this article do not match its accompanying graphic, which reflects the Vice President's numbers I cited above.
Two thoughts -
First, it shouldn't be hard to let people know in a clear manner how many new students have arrived on campus.
Second, the NHP number of 183 new students - which to me is surprisingly high - lends support to my position that a new nursing building, not a new arena, should be the top priority for the university at this point in time.
Paul
If the NHP headcount is lower this year than last year, that adds even more support to my position that a new NHP should be top priority. Local community colleges have way upped their game on NHP facilities and I can't help but conclude they are taking away kids that would otherwise consider VU.
Paul
We may have to wait until the dust settles and the 2023 version of this document (which I also posted above) is available:
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/Headcount_FA22.pdf (https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2022/09/Headcount_FA22.pdf)
(...in a hushed and reverent PBS tone)
At dawn it seems cloudy on the horizon. But as the fog lifts over the waves, we can see more clearly and be able to accurately count our "NEW BEACONS" more easily.
So how many freakin' Beacons are there?
And how bright are they? Brighter at times than others?
When you welcome them, do they arrive by sea or by land?
Quote from: wh on August 23, 2023, 09:52:09 PM
From the VU website:
TRANSFER TO VALPO
"Every year, Valpo eagerly welcomes approximately 150 transfer students. In fact, roughly 30% of our students enter as transfers."
https://www.valpo.edu/admission-aid/transfer/
1. 100 incoming transfers appears to be alarmingly low. According to College Transfer Net there were 143 transfers a year ago. Valpo's website references an average of 150/yr. Valpo's ad in CTN claims 200/year. I also vaguely recall seeing somewhere that Valpo has an incoming transfer rate of 9%. IF 9% is accurate, "normal" would be in the 175-200 range.
2. I repeat, whether it's 600 or 700 shining new faces, it doesn't mean anything until we know how many of last year's underclassmen didn't return. For all anyone knows 200 former students may have transferred out, resulting in a net transfer loss of 100.
3. Bottom line. I think people may be reading too much into a 1-off, feel-good greeting to new students. That said, I understand the burning desire to know the bottom line. I'm as interested as the next person, believe me. Hopefully, it all turns out well and we can breathe a sigh of relief. Despite my criticisms of how we got here, Valpo remains a great academic institution with multiple assets and a credible recovery plan.
That all makes sense. Appreciate the insights!
Guess we see in September. And statistically there's really no reason to over-analyze increases or decreases of 10% in such a small sample size of students. See you after the census. We will know the number of "new Beacons." Good lord on the mascots.
FYI the website (being pushed out on Facebook) still says 602 students 94 of whom are transfers.
Quote from: valpo22 on August 25, 2023, 06:20:55 AM
Yes, all will become clear once the official documents are set.
Wh, I actually am not too concerned about a further huge drop-off in retention. Maybe it could sink a little because of general factors like incoming students just being less and less prepared for college emotionally or academically.
Last year's big drop down to 77% seemed severe for Valpo, and I imagine that sort of steep decline wouldn't continue. You know I am usually a cynic- but I think this year was surely for student retention and morale better than the preceding ones. In 2020/21/22, campus life was mostly staff crying in hallways and roomates' programs getting discontinued, lots of confusion, lots of students support resources evaporating.... and then the big drop in retention. This past 2022/23 year did have the "negativity" of the Art Museum controversy, but I think that was most likely to be actually discouraging to faculty or staff for whom it seemed another indicator that the Administration will gut anything and everything to fund their investment plan of the year -- whereas students don't have those kind of meta-worries about the future of higher ed. To most students, it was probably either a neutrally juicy and interesting campus drama, or if they opposed the art sale on principle, then an angrily energizing rallying point that got the blood flowing. But I just don't think the energy around Brauer was all that bad for student campus experience. A little controversy can even help campus culture insofar as it gets students to look up from Tiktok and pay attention to campus community. The 2020-22 controveries were just depressing and soulsucking. The 2022-23 Brauer and BBall controversies were at least interesting!
So in a rare glass-half-full impulse, I would hope :-X that retention and transfer rates stay stable where they were in the %70s... Fingers crossed
Hopefully, you would agree that turning Valpo's financial woes into a national spectacle potentially jeopardized recruiting and retention.
So if folks are interested in digging into past year's enrollment numbers, there's a treasure trove of data posted by the University here:
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/institutional-research/longitudinal-enrollment-data/ (https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/institutional-research/longitudinal-enrollment-data/)
I was poking around while wondering whether it's possible to suggest a ballpark enrollment figure that would support a sustainable institution, with an option to grow but not dependent upon it to survive. Of course there are countless other factors to be taken under consideration, reliant upon info not known to members of this Forum generally.
The numbers by college did confirm to me a point I've asserted earlier, namely, that the different divisions of the University basically need each other, even if their educational missions are not all in harmony. That's what a "comprehensive" category university is, a (hopefully) healthy mix of liberal arts and professional programs, concentrated on undergraduate education, but also offering a fairly wide degree of graduate programs, usually at the master's and professional levels.
FWIW, after perusing those numbers, I'd toss out a suggestion that if VU can reach a point of holding relatively steady at between 2,600-2,800 undergraduate students and between 500-700 graduate students, then it should be in OK shape.
I think what is the most troubling of all this enrollment figures is that not everyone is on the same page. From Official VU Facebook posts which is run by the VP of Enrollment and Marketing Office and the Provost, you'd think they'd have the same message. I mean get your :censored: together people. The new VP of Enrollment and Marketing is way in over her head on this and to have split verbiage on enrollment figures is very disturbing. Once again I trust Allison Urbanczyk in the Registrar's Office to give the true enrollment figures.
Yes, I agree.
Much less concerned about the final number variances than website accuracy. As of right now (3pm Sunday) it says below, "OF THE 602....94 ARE TRANSFER STUDENTS.
"Welcome, class of 2027, to the Valparaiso University family," said University President José D. Padilla, J.D. at this year's Convocation ceremony.....etc..........."
.......Of the 602 students joining the campus community, 94 are coming in as transfer students, and the University....etc.....
If the final number is 602 new students including 94 incoming transfer students, that is VERY bad performance (and keep in mind that incoming transfer students is not net transfer students).
I just don't understand how the VP of Enrollment tells Valpopal wrong info of 602 new freshmen and over 100 transfers. Just own up to your numbers, don't need to shy away from not hitting your goals. It's been on that downward trend for years.
Quote from: VUSupport on August 27, 2023, 04:07:51 PM
I just don't understand how the VP of Enrollment tells Valpopal wrong info of 602 new freshmen and over 100 transfers. Just own up to your numbers, don't need to shy away from not hitting your goals. It's been on that downward trend for years.
Those numbers are not wrong. There are about 600 freshmen and 100 transfers, give or take a few depending on drop/add in the next two weeks. A rough breakdown of new students follows:
CAS 290
COB 94
COE 126
NHP 183
As I said last week:
Quote from: valpopal on August 22, 2023, 06:31:54 PM
Before anyone panics, I'm pretty sure this was a misspoken moment and the 600 number just applies to freshmen (not freshmen and transfers), there are additionally more than one hundred transfers as well as more than 200 grad students.
valpopal - I certainly hope you are right.
This leads back to my previous statement on folks needing to be on the same page. The troubling fact remains that the VP of Enrollment and Marketing has two numbers floating out there. And why on the official VU Facebook page (which the Enrollment & Marketing runs) have something different? If it's wrong, you'd think someone would change it.
Quote from: VUSupport on August 27, 2023, 05:26:22 PM
This leads back to my previous statement on folks needing to be on the same page. The troubling fact remains that the VP of Enrollment and Marketing has two numbers floating out there. And why on the official VU Facebook page (which the Enrollment & Marketing runs) have something different? If it's wrong, you'd think someone would change it.
^^^This.
And it's just a human error. Creditable news sources correct incorrect info all the time. Correction is not an issue; the failure to correct is.
That's nice to be empathetic and caring.
It's just odd to see wide variances in numbers and see odd terminology like "influx" in print when enrollment data is such a sensitive issue.
There is a picture posted on Facebook of the "new international students". Easily over 200.
July 31, 2023 Bradley U. News Release. Enrollment is just a brutal competition in the midwest. Moody's cited similar budget % at VU.
"Bradley University president Stephen Standifird says the institution needs to permanently cut costs by 10% to reduce its budget deficits. The university ran a $13 million budget shortfall in fiscal year 2023. Standifird said that's about 10% of the university's total operating budget.
Forty positions will be cut immediately. Thirty of those are currently unfilled. Standifird said administrative roles, faculty, staff, and academic departments will be impacted "by these and additional reductions." The affected employees will be offered outplacement services, Standifird said in an email to staff and faculty.
"We had hoped this would not be necessary, as I indicated when I first arrived at Bradley; however, due to our ongoing structural deficit, it is an unfortunate reality," Standifird said.
This isn't the first time Bradley University has weighed significant cuts to balance out its finances. The university had similar discussions back in 2019 when it faced an $8 million deficit.
In a news release, the university said the discussions come amid lower-than-expected enrollment numbers, changes in the economic climate, and increasing operational costs. The university said those problems aren't unique to Bradley, but are being seen across the country.
I have seen confirmation of the current enrollment numbers, and as I previously reported, the freshmen number is slightly over 600 and the transfer number is a little over 100, plus the graduate number is over 200. The exact totals will likely waver a handful here or there this week. The drop/add period for students ends Wednesday (8/30). (Let's hope no homesick freshmen plan to return home over Labor Day weekend.) The first faculty meeting is next Thursday (9/7). I would expect final enrollment numbers to be released between Labor Day and the faculty meeting (either 9/5, 9/6, or 9/7).
Quote from: valpopal on August 28, 2023, 02:53:09 PM
I have seen confirmation of the current enrollment numbers, and as I previously reported, the freshmen number is slightly over 600 and the transfer number is a little over 100, plus the graduate number is over 200. The exact totals will likely waver a handful here or there this week. The drop/add period for students ends Wednesday (8/30). (Let's hope no homesick freshmen plan to return home over Labor Day weekend.) The first faculty meeting is next Thursday (9/7). I would expect final enrollment numbers to be released between Labor Day and the faculty meeting (either 9/5, 9/6, or 9/7).
valpopal - Thanks. Do you know the net transfer number (incoming transfer students minus outgoing)? That is another big part of the story.
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 28, 2023, 03:05:39 PM
Quote from: valpopal on August 28, 2023, 02:53:09 PM
I have seen confirmation of the current enrollment numbers, and as I previously reported, the freshmen number is slightly over 600 and the transfer number is a little over 100, plus the graduate number is over 200. The exact totals will likely waver a handful here or there this week. The drop/add period for students ends Wednesday (8/30). (Let's hope no homesick freshmen plan to return home over Labor Day weekend.) The first faculty meeting is next Thursday (9/7). I would expect final enrollment numbers to be released between Labor Day and the faculty meeting (either 9/5, 9/6, or 9/7).
valpopal - Thanks. Do you know the net transfer number (incoming transfer students minus outgoing)? That is another big part of the story.
My two sources of information are reliable in the area of admissions. Unfortunately, they did not have any outgoing numbers.
Final reporting numbers (Census) is after week 3
Quote from: VUSupport on August 28, 2023, 06:01:24 PM
Final reporting numbers (Census) is after week 3
Not really: I am told Census Day this semester is 9/5.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 28, 2023, 02:49:34 PM
July 31, 2023 Bradley U. News Release. Enrollment is just a brutal competition in the midwest. Moody's cited similar budget % at VU.
"Bradley University president Stephen Standifird says the institution needs to permanently cut costs by 10% to reduce its budget deficits. The university ran a $13 million budget shortfall in fiscal year 2023. Standifird said that's about 10% of the university's total operating budget.
Forty positions will be cut immediately. Thirty of those are currently unfilled. Standifird said administrative roles, faculty, staff, and academic departments will be impacted "by these and additional reductions." The affected employees will be offered outplacement services, Standifird said in an email to staff and faculty.
"We had hoped this would not be necessary, as I indicated when I first arrived at Bradley; however, due to our ongoing structural deficit, it is an unfortunate reality," Standifird said.
This isn't the first time Bradley University has weighed significant cuts to balance out its finances. The university had similar discussions back in 2019 when it faced an $8 million deficit.
In a news release, the university said the discussions come amid lower-than-expected enrollment numbers, changes in the economic climate, and increasing operational costs. The university said those problems aren't unique to Bradley, but are being seen across the country.
Dang, that is not good. They're right about the problem being nationwide, and it's hitting these "comprehensive" category, regional, private universities that have a long track record of providing a quality education and opening doors to students who show up and do well.
So many of us here can attest to the value of this type of university and the ability of these schools to help folks take a step up the ladder, so to speak. It's a model worth fighting to preserve as a viable option.
From the US Department of Education:
2023 Census Dates
September 7, 2023: Census Day for Fall 2023
September 8, 2023: Capture of Degrees Conferred and End of Term Data Capture for Summer 2023
Quote from: VUSupport on August 28, 2023, 08:35:36 PM
From the US Department of Education:
2023 Census Dates
September 7, 2023: Census Day for Fall 2023
September 8, 2023: Capture of Degrees Conferred and End of Term Data Capture for Summer 2023
Universities set their own census dates. I have confirmed that it is 9/5 for Valparaiso this semester.
Confirmed by the Registrar that's when they report it to the DOE and HLC
Quote from: VUSupport on August 28, 2023, 09:21:57 PM
Confirmed by the Registrar that's when they report it to the DOE and HLC
I have confirmed at the highest level that VU will conduct its census on 9/5 no matter what date they report results to the DOE. As I said in a previous post, I am uncertain when exactly the data will be released: "I would expect final enrollment numbers to be released between Labor Day and the faculty meeting (either 9/5, 9/6, or 9/7)."
The official headcount and final numbers comes from the Registrars Office.
Quote from: VUSupport on August 28, 2023, 09:51:02 PM
The official headcount and final numbers comes from the Registrars Office.
Agreed.
So we are a total student population of 2,500 now?
Quote from: valpotx on August 29, 2023, 03:30:00 AM
So we are a total student population of 2,500 now?
The published total enrollment numbers for 2022-2023 were 2355 undergrads and 609 grads (2964 total). The undergraduate new student head count for Fall 2022 (freshmen and transfers) was 737. The numbers this semester likely will be a bit lower than that, as will the grad student numbers. Obviously, the overall total of students this year will depend on amount of attrition from last year. That gives you a student total near 2900 and an fte closer to 2500 than 2900.
However, in its strategic plan outlook (maybe optimistic), Valpo is looking to increase the incoming undergrad population in the next 3-5 years to its 2019-2020 (last year before covid and first year with no law school students) new student number of 800 freshmen and transfers. That number was actually 790 in 2020-21, the first year partially impacted by covid, so an increase of only 10 over that would get Valpo to 800, though I think getting back to 790 would be considered a great success and 750-775 could be acceptable, especially if grad numbers also increase. In general, the university target is a 3000 fte student enrollment in five years, as Pres. Padilla has publicly stated. The estimated numbers would include about 800 new undergraduate students each fall (freshmen and transfers). Overall graduate numbers could be about 300-500 to reach the fte goal.
Quote from: valpopal on August 29, 2023, 08:57:05 AM
Quote from: valpotx on August 29, 2023, 03:30:00 AM
So we are a total student population of 2,500 now?
The published total enrollment numbers for 2022-2023 were 2355 undergrads and 609 grads (2964 total). The undergraduate new student head count for Fall 2022 (freshmen and transfers) was 737. The numbers this semester likely will be a bit lower than that, as will the grad student numbers. Obviously, the overall total of students this year will depend on amount of attrition from last year. That gives you a student total near 2900 and an fte closer to 2500 than 2900.
However, in its strategic plan outlook (maybe optimistic), Valpo is looking to increase the incoming undergrad population in the next 3-5 years to its 2019-2020 (last year before covid and first year with no law school students) new student number of 800 freshmen and transfers. That number was actually 790 in 2020-21, the first year partially impacted by covid, so an increase of only 10 over that would get Valpo to 800, though I think getting back to 790 would be considered a great success and 750-775 could be acceptable, especially if grad numbers also increase. In general, the university target is a 3000 fte student enrollment in five years, as Pres. Padilla has publicly stated. The estimated numbers would include about 800 new undergraduate students each fall (freshmen and transfers). Overall graduate numbers could be about 300-500 to reach the fte goal.
Thank you for that summary, valpopal.
Those enrollment targets sound sensible and realistic. I hope they reflect budget projections assuming that the bloodletting is in the rearview mirror. After all, stability is a blessed yet highly underrated quality in the aftermath of layoffs, program closures, and budget cuts.
Quote from: David81 on August 29, 2023, 03:15:12 PM
Quote from: valpopal on August 29, 2023, 08:57:05 AM
Quote from: valpotx on August 29, 2023, 03:30:00 AM
So we are a total student population of 2,500 now?
The published total enrollment numbers for 2022-2023 were 2355 undergrads and 609 grads (2964 total). The undergraduate new student head count for Fall 2022 (freshmen and transfers) was 737. The numbers this semester likely will be a bit lower than that, as will the grad student numbers. Obviously, the overall total of students this year will depend on amount of attrition from last year. That gives you a student total near 2900 and an fte closer to 2500 than 2900.
However, in its strategic plan outlook (maybe optimistic), Valpo is looking to increase the incoming undergrad population in the next 3-5 years to its 2019-2020 (last year before covid and first year with no law school students) new student number of 800 freshmen and transfers. That number was actually 790 in 2020-21, the first year partially impacted by covid, so an increase of only 10 over that would get Valpo to 800, though I think getting back to 790 would be considered a great success and 750-775 could be acceptable, especially if grad numbers also increase. In general, the university target is a 3000 fte student enrollment in five years, as Pres. Padilla has publicly stated. The estimated numbers would include about 800 new undergraduate students each fall (freshmen and transfers). Overall graduate numbers could be about 300-500 to reach the fte goal.
Thank you for that summary, valpopal.
Those enrollment targets sound sensible and realistic. I hope they reflect budget projections assuming that the bloodletting is in the rearview mirror. After all, stability is a blessed yet highly underrated quality in the aftermath of layoffs, program closures, and budget cuts.
The other key assumption in budget projections is discount rate...what was the assumption and what was actual?
It's all about retention and net tuition. And not to beat a dead horse, they didn't retain the right people for that. The new VP is in over her head and needs to get rid of the director of Admissions Bart.
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 29, 2023, 05:10:17 PM
The other key assumption in budget projections is discount rate...what was the assumption and what was actual?
Interesting article by George F. Will in the
Washington Post this morning on this very subject (hope it is readable and not blocked by a pay wall).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/30/high-college-tuition-marketing-tool/?utm_campaign=wp_follow_george_f_will&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl-georgefwill
Quote from: VULB#62 on August 30, 2023, 08:01:23 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 29, 2023, 05:10:17 PM
The other key assumption in budget projections is discount rate...what was the assumption and what was actual?
Interesting article by George F. Will in the Washington Post this morning on this very subject (hope it is readable and not blocked by a pay wall).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/30/high-college-tuition-marketing-tool/?utm_campaign=wp_follow_george_f_will&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl-georgefwill
(the article is accessible as long as you have not used up your free articles)
Two points regarding list price, discount rate, and university finances:
1. One major reason that the list price for tuition rose dramatically was that most international students paid full price. External factors soured international students' desire to attend American universities, which hurt the financials for universities (especially private universities). For students from the US, the actual prices paid rose much less than the posted tuition - thus the discount rates became much higher.
2. The difference in actual prices paid between public and private universities is far less than what many believe (many just see the list price and make judgements). Relatedly, many states have significantly reduced funding for universities. I recently had a discussion with an administrator from a state school and he said that state's (not Wisconsin or Indiana) funding to cover costs associated with tuition had gone from 80% prior to 2010 to about 20% today. This has three impacts: 1. the state universities must raise tuition to makes their finances work, while their discount rate remains very low, 2. the non-flagship state universities become far less competitive and incur major financial problems, 3. state universities reduce their entry standards to generate equal or greater enrollment.
Strategies at private universities (such as Valpo) need to consider these factors and make adjustments (on posted pricing, value proposition, etc.)
Great insight. Full tuition-paying international students make perfect sense as a rationale to push sticker prices through the roof. And of course the "vanity" or brand factor keeps the prices high even after those students are fewer now.
I found George Will's observations that there has been an actual decline in net tuition paid by families to be fascinating. But,....do those statistics include loans, since those are actually costs paid by the family? I should have read it closer.
One interesting piece about the student loan debate is that it lumps a lot of separate complaints into one conversation.
Generally people who go to and graduate from 4 year accredited higher education university are able to pay their loans off but the interest sticker shock and time it takes to do so can feel like a slow grind on people who are first starting off and feel like the loan payment does effect their ability to hit certain "adult" goals faster.
Loan repayment programs have, until recently, been riddled with bureaucracy and paperwork that made them almost unworthy of utilizing. That has change significantly and will hopefully continue to happen. This will encourage people to work for lower pay in more well deserving areas to aid in loan repayment instead of all trying to grab the highest paying jobs in the highest paying cities (which are usually also way more expensive to live in)
A lot of community colleges/certification courses etc are the most likely to have a student take out a loan that they cannot pay back or discharge bankruptcy. In fact, I believe that 20,000 of forgiveness would fully discharge a lot of the this type of loan because they tend to be lower amount but the people who took them out tend to be the least likely to even pay those back. These schools also tend to maybe have the least scruples on who they encourage to enroll and apply for loans.
I think a lot of students and parents hear the general talk about student loans and fears of not "using your college degree" (which is an interesting metric when so many things a college degree provides you may lead to way better career outcomes down the line even if you start off as, say, a barista) that they are way more risk averse in general.
While international perspectives brought by international students can be great, in reality -- at times, at least -- it's less about introducing cultural diversity into the mix and more about what vu84v2 suggests: They pay full sticker price. This that means unless these students are coming with a lot of financial aid from their government, you can get a remarkably homogeneous group of international students with a common denominator of family cash. Happens all the time. LOLOL.
I do wonder if some part of it is a psychological component of getting "some" aid.
So maybe most students only pay around 25,000. How many will get mad if they apply and get no aid even on 25,000. Better to discount to feel like they are getting a deal/wanted or valued vs the sense that having to pay full price means you are less desired. I think that's why they focus on tuition aid and large scholarships, Plus one thing that I believe has been proven is that the more expensive a school is the more people assume it is "better" and are more likely to want to go there. It's the same reason some schools love to chase the "acceptance rate" game. Those perceived as highly selective are more desirable because it's believed they clearly "offer more"
I think the biggest problem is that as college has gotten more expensive the perceived gap in quality and "worthiness" of an institution has widened to really make a big gap between haves and have nots, at least in the private system. It's like they often say, the hardest thing about many Ivies is getting into them vs the actually academic challenges once you're there.
And of course there is the fiscal reality for the university at this point in time.
If you have empty dorm rooms and empty classroom seats then every new student is a revenue gain. If marginal revenue on each extra kid is only $10,000 and your marginal cost to add them is ZERO, then you gain $10k in net revenue.
I don't like it, but I suppose that is the reason to shout across Facebook that "YOU GET $25,000 AUTOMATICALLY....NO TESTS SCORES NEEDED!" At least it gets you noticed by parents/kids who think they are out of it from sticker price. Just sweep up every interested student and get on their ACT score recipient list. Then you can drive the price down as far as needed to enroll each him/her.
Well, a picture on Facebook from the Office of International Students (or some such title) showed a picture of "new international students" in the Union lobby. There were clearly over 200 present--that I tried to actually count. 200 X $45,000 tuition, room and meal plan, that's $9,000,000! That, can cover a lot of discounting!
Quote from: vu72 on August 31, 2023, 02:33:14 PM
Well, a picture on Facebook from the Office of International Students (or some such title) showed a picture of "new international students" in the Union lobby. There were clearly over 200 present--that I tried to actually count.
That photo was from last year when we had the aberration of an unusually large cohort of grad students in CS from a single source. Therefore, this year you will see the international grad number down, but the good news is that the U.S. grad number will be up.
The other big reason undergraduate enrollment is so pivotal is that you get revenue from dorms and from meal plans, especially from freshmen. So many seek apartments over dorms. I bet they let them have cars too which adds to off-campus food shopping. The dorm revenue is the key item even though some revenue is lost from fewer meal plans that may charge $10-15 bucks for "all in" meals.
I loved that good old dorm and cafeteria experience for the social interactions (and a guy's appetite.) But times have changed. Just another nasty revenue challenge.
STILL ON THE WEBSITE!! :o
August 23, 2023 – Valparaiso, Indiana – An exciting new semester is set to kick off at Valparaiso University as over 600 new students start their Valpo journey. (contd...)
"Welcome, class of 2027, to the Valparaiso University family," said University President José D. Padilla, J.D. at this year's Convocation ceremony. " (contd....)
Of the 602 students joining the campus community, 94 are coming in as transfer students, and the University has been recognized by Phi Beta Kappa for its success in creating transfer-friendly pathways to education.
I have no knowledge of international student mix but found a video put out by the office of international students, on Facebook, of interest. This was an interview with a new student this fall, who is a Junior, transfer from Pakistan, who is majoring in Psychology. Who knew?
Makes you wonder who's more full of bs about the enrollment figures? The Registrar agrees with the Facebook post btw
The administration monitors exact numbers of enrollment on a daily basis. The unfortunate confusion seems to exist because of the apparently poorly worded sentence in a statement on the website ("Of the 602 students...") that gives an impression transfers are included among the 602 total. The same statement but with a bit more correct wording ("Of the students...") was posted in the following link on August 23. Minus the "602," its context indicates transfers and Access students are in addition to the 600 freshmen:
https://valpo.life/article/valparaiso-university-welcomes-a-new-class-to-campus/ (https://valpo.life/article/valparaiso-university-welcomes-a-new-class-to-campus/)
In fact, the graphic supplied by the university and accompanying the link above offers precise numbers: 290 in CAS, 94 in COB, 126 in COE, 183 in CNHP, plus 28 in the Access College. That gives a total of 721. The number will likely have altered a bit between 8/23 and the final census count that will be conducted on Tuesday 9/5. However, it is safe to assume undergraduate enrollment will be a little over 700. (The grad student numbers should be just over 200.) In any case, the official numbers should be revealed by the the time of the fall faculty meeting on Thursday 9/7.
Quote from: valpo22 on August 31, 2023, 01:09:16 PM
D81, what do you think should happen?
In the wake of these recent decades of tuition increase and reliance on internationals, should privates like VU simply peg the full-rate tuition way lower so it's clear for domestic students how VU stacks up against public state and community colleges? Or keep up the high numbers in hopes of getting a few rich international or domestic families to pay it, while giving the steep scholarships? or some third option?
It seems like the current strategy is a hybrid in terms of keeping the tuition high but pre-publicizing the guaranteed scholarships for GPA, though I don't know what that means for actual net income to the university.
valpo22, it's a good question that I can answer only in generalities. I think the overwhelming first priority is to set tuition at the best possible "sweet spot" for attracting U.S. undergraduates. Too high, and the sticker price may scare people from even applying, even with generous scholarships in the mix. Too low, and you're reducing revenue and -- ironically -- some may regard a low sticker for a private university as suggesting lower quality.
As for qualified international students, hopefully whatever VU has to offer will be appealing, and they'll matriculate. But I think the past few years have taught us the precariousness of over reliance on steady and/or growing international student enrollment. Too many variables out of a school's control.
Quote from: VULB#62 on August 30, 2023, 08:01:23 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 29, 2023, 05:10:17 PM
The other key assumption in budget projections is discount rate...what was the assumption and what was actual?
Interesting article by George F. Will in the Washington Post this morning on this very subject (hope it is readable and not blocked by a pay wall).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/30/high-college-tuition-marketing-tool/?utm_campaign=wp_follow_george_f_will&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl-georgefwill (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/30/high-college-tuition-marketing-tool/?utm_campaign=wp_follow_george_f_will&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl-georgefwill)
Opinion Colleges hide the truth about tuitionBy George F. Will
Columnist
|
Follow
August 30, 2023 at 7:00 a.m. EDT
From sea to shining sea, the shining faces of young people are turning expectantly toward another year in the groves of academe. Heading for college, they leave behind parents who might understandably be bewildered about the price of higher education. (Higher than what? It's complicated, and a question for another day.)
There is ample evidence that colleges mangle the truth about so many subjects (e.g., history, contemporary life, how literature should be studied, freedom of expression on campuses, etc.) that it should not surprise anyone that the counterintuitive reality about tuition is deliberately obscured — and cunningly complicated.
Fortunately, Dan Currell has entertainingly dispelled the manufactured mists that engulf "The Truth About College Costs," which is the title of his astringent essay in the summer issue of National Affairs. Formerly a senior adviser at the Education Department, Currell has glad tidings: "Students are paying less for college than they did 15 years ago."
This is, as Currell knows, "deeply contrary to conventional wisdom," but the reason for it is hiding in plain sight: "In the late 1980s and early 1990s, colleges discovered that the appearance of high tuition was good for marketing." Since then, they have toiled to keep "nearly invisible" the fact that 96 percent of students pay about $15,000 a year for tuition. Add $10,000 for room and board, and the $25,000 total is a far cry from the eye-watering numbers that colleges are actually pleased to have bandied about.
A few highly selective colleges educate a "small and highly unrepresentative" fraction of students. "The top 100 private schools enroll around 500,000 students," while the other 2,600 four-year schools enroll about 10.5 million. Most of the elite schools could fill their annual enrollments several times over with the children of the affluent who would gladly pay the advertised tuition — even much more. Most of these elite institutions have, however, large endowments that enable generous tuition assistance for the less affluent. For the other institutions, a sleight of hand is the basic business practice.
The Economist largely validates Currell's thesis. It reports that the average tuition paid by students at their home-state public colleges is about $10,000, and that private colleges discount tuition by more than 50 percent on average. "The College Board, a non-profit, shows that whereas published tuition and fees for private non-profit colleges increased from $29,000 in 2006-07 to $38,000 in 2021-22 (in 2021 dollars), the net price actually decreased from $17,000 to $15,000. The story is similar for public colleges. Published tuition and fees were nearly $8,000 in 2006-07 and rose to nearly $11,000 in 2021-22, but the net cost fell by $730."
But, the Economist says, schools have "an incentive to seem extortionate": "Consumers tend to associate higher prices with higher quality." (Currell: "Bowdoin's published tuition today is $4,000 higher than Harvard's.") The Economist adds, "students (and their boastful parents) are flattered by tuition markdowns pitched as merit scholarships rather than discounts."
The discounts often are, Currell says, "institutional scholarships" with no money behind them. "By 1999," he says, "the fundamental dishonesty of college pricing had become clear": "That year, American private colleges purported to award scholarships worth more than all the tuition they collected — which is to say, their average discount had exceeded 50%." That explains this faux mystery: Colleges ostensibly cost $50,000 a year, "but," Currell says drolly, "they are somehow also running out of money." The not-at-all-mysterious reality is, Currell says, that "the apparent rise in tuition after the mid-1990s" is "almost entirely illusory."
"In fact," Currell says, "if a typical college collected its sticker price in full, its leaders would hardly know what to do with all the money." For example, Beloit College, a Wisconsin liberal arts school with a $43 million budget, would have an extra $26 million.
Colleges can minimize their discounts by instead steering parents toward having government provide the discount with subsidized student loans. Among the social costs of what Currell calls the "fundamental dishonesty" about college pricing is today's mountain of college debt: "Many families simply believe there is a $200,000 tollbooth on the road to the American dream, so they sign the loan forms."
Academia has appointed itself the nation's moral tutor whose duty is to make Americans remorseful about almost everything, including deceptive practices that the tutor insists characterize unsavory capitalism. So, it is fun to have Currell's demonstration that our supposed moral betters have practices that are, to use one of their favorite words, problematic.Opinion by George F. Will
George F. Will writes a twice-weekly column on politics and domestic and foreign affairs. He began his column with The Post in 1974, and he received the Pulitzer Prize for commentary in 1977. His latest book, "American Happiness and Discontents," was released in September 2021.
Quote from: historyman on September 05, 2023, 05:13:44 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on August 30, 2023, 08:01:23 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 29, 2023, 05:10:17 PM
The other key assumption in budget projections is discount rate...what was the assumption and what was actual?
Interesting article by George F. Will in the Washington Post this morning on this very subject (hope it is readable and not blocked by a pay wall).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/30/high-college-tuition-marketing-tool/?utm_campaign=wp_follow_george_f_will&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl-georgefwill (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/30/high-college-tuition-marketing-tool/?utm_campaign=wp_follow_george_f_will&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl-georgefwill)
Opinion Colleges hide the truth about tuition
By George F. Will
Columnist
|
Follow
August 30, 2023 at 7:00 a.m. EDT
From sea to shining sea, the shining faces of young people are turning expectantly toward another year in the groves of academe. Heading for college, they leave behind parents who might understandably be bewildered about the price of higher education. (Higher than what? It's complicated, and a question for another day.)
There is ample evidence that colleges mangle the truth about so many subjects (e.g., history, contemporary life, how literature should be studied, freedom of expression on campuses, etc.) that it should not surprise anyone that the counterintuitive reality about tuition is deliberately obscured — and cunningly complicated.
Fortunately, Dan Currell has entertainingly dispelled the manufactured mists that engulf "The Truth About College Costs," which is the title of his astringent essay in the summer issue of National Affairs. Formerly a senior adviser at the Education Department, Currell has glad tidings: "Students are paying less for college than they did 15 years ago."
This is, as Currell knows, "deeply contrary to conventional wisdom," but the reason for it is hiding in plain sight: "In the late 1980s and early 1990s, colleges discovered that the appearance of high tuition was good for marketing." Since then, they have toiled to keep "nearly invisible" the fact that 96 percent of students pay about $15,000 a year for tuition. Add $10,000 for room and board, and the $25,000 total is a far cry from the eye-watering numbers that colleges are actually pleased to have bandied about.
A few highly selective colleges educate a "small and highly unrepresentative" fraction of students. "The top 100 private schools enroll around 500,000 students," while the other 2,600 four-year schools enroll about 10.5 million. Most of the elite schools could fill their annual enrollments several times over with the children of the affluent who would gladly pay the advertised tuition — even much more. Most of these elite institutions have, however, large endowments that enable generous tuition assistance for the less affluent. For the other institutions, a sleight of hand is the basic business practice.
The Economist largely validates Currell's thesis. It reports that the average tuition paid by students at their home-state public colleges is about $10,000, and that private colleges discount tuition by more than 50 percent on average. "The College Board, a non-profit, shows that whereas published tuition and fees for private non-profit colleges increased from $29,000 in 2006-07 to $38,000 in 2021-22 (in 2021 dollars), the net price actually decreased from $17,000 to $15,000. The story is similar for public colleges. Published tuition and fees were nearly $8,000 in 2006-07 and rose to nearly $11,000 in 2021-22, but the net cost fell by $730."
But, the Economist says, schools have "an incentive to seem extortionate": "Consumers tend to associate higher prices with higher quality." (Currell: "Bowdoin's published tuition today is $4,000 higher than Harvard's.") The Economist adds, "students (and their boastful parents) are flattered by tuition markdowns pitched as merit scholarships rather than discounts."
The discounts often are, Currell says, "institutional scholarships" with no money behind them. "By 1999," he says, "the fundamental dishonesty of college pricing had become clear": "That year, American private colleges purported to award scholarships worth more than all the tuition they collected — which is to say, their average discount had exceeded 50%." That explains this faux mystery: Colleges ostensibly cost $50,000 a year, "but," Currell says drolly, "they are somehow also running out of money." The not-at-all-mysterious reality is, Currell says, that "the apparent rise in tuition after the mid-1990s" is "almost entirely illusory."
"In fact," Currell says, "if a typical college collected its sticker price in full, its leaders would hardly know what to do with all the money." For example, Beloit College, a Wisconsin liberal arts school with a $43 million budget, would have an extra $26 million.
Colleges can minimize their discounts by instead steering parents toward having government provide the discount with subsidized student loans. Among the social costs of what Currell calls the "fundamental dishonesty" about college pricing is today's mountain of college debt: "Many families simply believe there is a $200,000 tollbooth on the road to the American dream, so they sign the loan forms."
Academia has appointed itself the nation's moral tutor whose duty is to make Americans remorseful about almost everything, including deceptive practices that the tutor insists characterize unsavory capitalism. So, it is fun to have Currell's demonstration that our supposed moral betters have practices that are, to use one of their favorite words, problematic.
Opinion by George F. Will
George F. Will writes a twice-weekly column on politics and domestic and foreign affairs. He began his column with The Post in 1974, and he received the Pulitzer Prize for commentary in 1977. His latest book, "American Happiness and Discontents," was released in September 2021.
It took him a while to get there, but he finally got around to the primary, material question about college costs to students and families who don't have loads of cash to spare:
What are the student's projected debt principal, interest, and repayment terms? Everything else merely informs that question.
The Niche site reports that 63% of VU students take out student loans averaging $7986 annually: https://www.niche.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-loans/ (https://www.niche.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-loans/) That puts the average student debt principal at around $32,000 covering a four-year degree program. Not great, but not awful, and certainly a far cry from the $200,000 nightmare figures that one occasionally encounters in connection with private university student loan debt.
The fact that 37% of VU students do not take out student loans also suggests a student body somewhat more affluent than the one of my day (1970s/1980s). This may well include children of VU alums who harnessed their Valpo education to move up the economic ladder a step or two, via either career opportunities directly after graduation or grad school possibilities made possible by their success at VU.
Quote from: David81 on September 05, 2023, 02:38:51 PMThat puts the average student debt principal at around $32,000 covering a four-year degree program.
Some perspective here. Let's assume for a moment that David's conclusion of a total student debt of $32,000 is correct. If so, if you apply a fairly typical 4.5% interest rate and a 10 year payment option (there are longer options), the monthly payment is $330 a month. Not insignificant. About half of the typical young person's first car payment.
However, is it too much when analyzing the life long value of a Valpo education? Getting a BSN or Masters from Nursing, getting a CPA, CFA or CFP from Business, or getting an engineering degree? How about the slam dunk nature of getting into a graduate or medical school if you are a Christ College grad?
Yes, if puts a burden on a young person that one entering into a trade won't have, but over a lifetime, I doubt the numbers from the various college options versus the non-college choices would be even be close.
Quote from: vu72 on September 05, 2023, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: David81 on September 05, 2023, 02:38:51 PMThat puts the average student debt principal at around $32,000 covering a four-year degree program.
Some perspective here. Let's assume for a moment that David's conclusion of a total student debt of $32,000 is correct. If so, if you apply a fairly typical 4.5% interest rate and a 10 year payment option (there are longer options), the monthly payment is $330 a month. Not insignificant. About half of the typical young person's first car payment.
However, is it too much when analyzing the life long value of a Valpo education? Getting a BSN or Masters from Nursing, getting a CPA, CFA or CFP from Business, or getting an engineering degree? How about the slam dunk nature of getting into a graduate or medical school if you are a Christ College grad?
Yes, if puts a burden on a young person that one entering into a trade won't have, but over a lifetime, I doubt the numbers from the various college options versus the non-college choices would be even be close.
If some of you who graduated during the last century would like a comparative perspective, using a CPI inflation calculator in reverse, that $32,000 of student loan debt for a 2023 graduate is the rough equivalent of $15,000 for a 1993 graduate and $10,500 for a 1983 graduate. I think the average 1983 VU graduate, for example would've regarded $10,500 as being on the high side, but compared to other private universities it would not have been outrageous.
I think the $32k figure is on the edge of tolerable for a liberal arts/humanities grad who does not plan to seek a graduate/professional degree that adds major income potential. A 15-year repayment period would soften the monthly hit, but raise the amount of interest paid.
Assuming student loans are here to stay, one reform is to make them no-interest. That would help a lot.
If you received the News & Notes from the Alumni Network yesterday, the opening sentence should be a little reassuring to those who were uncertain about the confusion with the number of freshmen and transfer undergraduates: "Over 700 first-year Beacons and transfers began moving into campus on Saturday, August 19 before the start of classes on Wednesday, August 23."
Still pretty odd wording. "First year Beacons AND transfers" (who are also in their "first year." If they are freshmen, why not call them that?
Oh well. Monday should have the census and once and for all clarity on what numbers report up to the regulatories.
I guess a transfer student is still a first-year Beacon... from a certain point of view.
Maybe the "first year Beacon" term is a way to consolidate some odd categories that are not all actual technical freshmen like the new college access stuff. I guess that is fine.
I just hope that nuance doesn't mean that the FTE realities for fall 2023 are lower than last year or that net income is lower than last year.
In either case it was expected to be final on Thursday 9/7.
Quote from: valpo22 on September 10, 2023, 05:36:57 AM
Fall 2023 total enrollment data was posted on the VU Office of Institutional Effectiveness page, in the 'longitudinal' data section:
Fall enrollment by college
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2023/09/FALL01.totalenrollment_fall-2023.pdf
Fall new students by college
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2023/09/NEWF01B.newstudent.enrollment_fall-2023.pdf
Fall full-time/part-time by college
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2023/09/FALL04.FTPT_fall-2023.pdf
Fall FTEs by college
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/files/2023/09/FALL03.FTE_fall-2023.pdf
valpo22 - thanks for posting.
To be candid, not a positive story in those numbers. Total undergraduate enrollment down to 2277. Total new students and new first-time students at lowest level since at least 2000. New transfers at lowest level since 2007. The ambiguity in the prior announcements led to some suspicion...which seems justified.
When I look at these numbers, I am left to wonder what the strategy is to reverse these numbers.
Quote from: valpopal on September 02, 2023, 12:52:44 PM
The number will likely have altered a bit between 8/23 and the final census count that will be conducted on Tuesday 9/5. However, it is safe to assume undergraduate enrollment will be a little over 700. (The grad student numbers should be just over 200.) In any case, the official numbers should be revealed by the the time of the fall faculty meeting on Thursday 9/7.
It looks like the numbers I have been sharing for the last month from "the most reliable sources" have proved almost exact to the final tally revealed this week. The undergraduate enrollment of new students (degree and non-degree) is 729. I had reported a first-year total of degree-seeking students at "about 600," and it winds up at 599. I had stated there would be "a little over 100 transfers": The final number is 104. The overall total without "non-degree students" is 703, which mirrors my "a little over 700."
vu84v2: "When I look at these numbers, I am left to wonder what the strategy is to reverse these numbers."
The projected goal for new degree-seeking students (freshmen, access students, and transfers) in fall 2024 will likely be about 800, an increase of nearly 100. Of course, goals are aspirational, and I think 750 would be considered a solid and successful benchmark for improvement over this semester's 703. Due to mid-year administrative turnover, which certainly must have been a disadvantage but not an excuse for the current numbers, the Vice President of Enrollment and Marketing took office in February, so this upcoming year will be the first true test with her new strategy in place, which I am told will include a more rapid response time to applications among other approaches.
Quote from: valpopal on September 10, 2023, 11:35:42 AM
vu84v2: "When I look at these numbers, I am left to wonder what the strategy is to reverse these numbers."
The projected goal for new degree-seeking students (freshmen, access students, and transfers) in fall 2024 will likely be about 800, an increase of nearly 100. Of course, goals are aspirational, and I think 750 would be considered a solid and successful benchmark for improvement over this semester's 703. Due to mid-year administrative turnover, which certainly must have been a disadvantage but not an excuse for the current numbers, the Vice President of Enrollment and Marketing took office in February, so this upcoming year will be the first true test with her new strategy in place, which I am told will include a more rapid response time to applications among other approaches.
First, this poor performance is on President Padilla. He is the chief executive and the organization failed on one of its most important measures (and likely the most urgent). You don't get a pass just because someone left and a new person came in. A good organization NEVER relies on a single person for performance and it is up the the chief executive to not let this be the case. Frankly, my perception is that President Padilla acts more like a political leader than a chief executive - looking to appeal to a majority of stakeholders and other external parties (not necessarily associated with Valpo) rather than recognizing and acting as the person with the ultimate responsibility for performance. Maybe I am wrong and am missing some real strategies, actions and accountability....I sincerely hope that I am, but I do not see it. Grade for President Padilla on this student recruiting cycle: D- (and his overall performance cannot be considered much higher given the importance of student recruiting and enrollment).
Second, if the university misses the target of 800, who will be held accountable (via pay and ability to retain their job)?
Third (and related to the perception of President Padilla acting more like a political leader), I do not see the value of a program like "Access". Students attend for two years and can complete a university studies two year degree. So who is the competition? Junior colleges, which means that you need to pricelike a JC rather than a private four-year university. I can see how this might make President Padilla more valued among a wide variety of people who might influence his future career ambitions, but I do not see how it creates value (in terms of students and the discount rate). Some might argue that Valpo wants to enable 'Access' students to complete four year degrees, but I will believe it when I see it.
Fourth, I have said this before but I will say it again - student recruiting efforts vastly underutilize resources associated with the professional colleges. I am an alum who is engaged quite a bit more than the average alum. How many times have I been asked to meet with potential students? None...and for most years I have lived in one of two major metro areas near Valpo. To what degree are faculty engaged with potential students? Minimal (though I am happy to see some new full day interactive programs with prospective nursing and engineering students that I assume are with faculty). Compare this to the university where I work, where every prospective student for our college who visits meets with a faculty member or a more senior administrator. Valpo's approach to recruiting is far too centralized (i.e., the university tries to promote the same message and value proposition to all prospective students).
If we're trying to get to the heart of the challenge, then the info posted by vu84v2 and valpo22 give us a good profile.
For a school that admits one of the largest % of its applicants, VU is doing OK on retention. Not great, but not bad.
And then we get to disappointing fall enrollment numbers.
There's at least a first-level failure in the admissions outreach: You can't persuade someone to matriculate if they haven't even applied. And getting folks to apply shouldn't be the hardest part. It's about having enough on the surface to be worth at least a speculative or safety application.
vu84v2 makes good points about involving faculty in becoming points of contact with students, but that's mostly (though hardly exclusively) after they've been admitted, or at least after they've applied. But before one gets to that deeper level of student recruiting, the initial appeal of the institution through other forms of outreach should be strong enough to enlarge the applicant pool. But something isn't coming across.
Quote from: David81 on September 10, 2023, 03:13:00 PM
If we're trying to get to the heart of the challenge, then the info posted by vu84v2 and valpo22 give us a good profile.
For a school that admits one of the largest % of its applicants, VU is doing OK on retention. Not great, but not bad.
And then we get to disappointing fall enrollment numbers.
There's at least a first-level failure in the admissions outreach: You can't persuade someone to matriculate if they haven't even applied. And getting folks to apply shouldn't be the hardest part. It's about having enough on the surface to be worth at least a speculative or safety application.
vu84v2 makes good points about involving faculty in becoming points of contact with students, but that's mostly (though hardly exclusively) after they've been admitted, or at least after they've applied. But before one gets to that deeper level of student recruiting, the initial appeal of the institution through other forms of outreach should be strong enough to enlarge the applicant pool. But something isn't coming across.
David81 - To clarify, I am specfically talking about faculty meeting with prospective students before they apply. In most cases, prospective students visit the university before they apply. When any prospective student visits, the plan needs to include meeting with faculty in his or her preferred colleges.
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 10, 2023, 03:19:52 PM
Quote from: David81 on September 10, 2023, 03:13:00 PM
If we're trying to get to the heart of the challenge, then the info posted by vu84v2 and valpo22 give us a good profile.
For a school that admits one of the largest % of its applicants, VU is doing OK on retention. Not great, but not bad.
And then we get to disappointing fall enrollment numbers.
There's at least a first-level failure in the admissions outreach: You can't persuade someone to matriculate if they haven't even applied. And getting folks to apply shouldn't be the hardest part. It's about having enough on the surface to be worth at least a speculative or safety application.
vu84v2 makes good points about involving faculty in becoming points of contact with students, but that's mostly (though hardly exclusively) after they've been admitted, or at least after they've applied. But before one gets to that deeper level of student recruiting, the initial appeal of the institution through other forms of outreach should be strong enough to enlarge the applicant pool. But something isn't coming across.
David81 - To clarify, I am specfically talking about faculty meeting with prospective students before they apply. In most cases, prospective students visit the university before they apply. When any prospective student visits, the plan needs to include meeting with faculty in his or her preferred colleges.
Boy, expectations must've changed a lot since my days. I had no expectations of a 1-to-1 meeting with any faculty member (college or law school) at the pre-application stage. I considered myself fortunate to have such a meeting even after acceptance.
In any event, per our friend ValpoDiaspora's comments last spring, expecting faculty to take on a huge number of 1-to-1 meetings with potential recruits would add considerably to their service duties. In the case of faculty with heavy teaching loads (e.g., VU) and comparatively modest pay (e.g., VU), something else may be sacrificed as a result (scholarship, other committee service, perhaps even instruction, such as reducing availability to current students or opting to rely on multiple-choice tests over grading essay exams).
While that kind of time-intensive outreach may be useful, it may be wholly unnecessary -- or at least, a cherry on top -- if the school was marketing itself adequately, which is the most resource-efficient way to attract more applicants. But VU is not conveying its message well. If you need evidence, take a look at the home page of its website as of today: https://www.valpo.edu (https://www.valpo.edu). What does it tell you about the look & feel of the University and what it stands for as an educational institution? Pretty much nothing. There's no persuasive hook to give anyone, regardless of what they're looking for in a college, reason to consider VU.
I'm going to amend my comment above to say that extensive pre-application contact with faculty may be materially helpful (i.e., increase both applications and yield) for two schools at VU: Christ College (because of its unique honors college status) and Engineering (as a nationally ranked undergraduate program).
David81 - Meeting with prospective students is not nearly the burden that you think it is. First, faculty typically meet with 2-5 families at a time (and, not surprisingly, many of these meetings are on Fridays since that is the day most students and their families visit). If someone comes on a Wednesday, they probably do meet 1 on 1. I think we probably end up with about 40 meetings in a semester. We have about 15 faculty and senior administrators who do this (it is voluntary), so everyone does 2-3 meetings per semester and the meetings are typically 45-60 minutes. That is the model that I am suggesting for Valpo - not a lot of time and a whole lot of value for that time.
We can't expect much, when the students we recruit are accepted at a 96% rate.
VU is in trouble, and we (the Alumni) need to help
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: covufan on September 10, 2023, 06:27:01 PM
We can't expect much, when the students we recruit are accepted at a 96% rate.
VU is in trouble, and we (the Alumni) need to help
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I fully agree that alumni need to help...and it isn't just "send us money" or "let us know if you know someone who is interested". But the acceptance rate is a very misleading number, as it is not much more work to apply to 20 schools as it is to apply to 10 schools. The statistic to look at are the distribution of test scores for incoming students. I am not aware of the average or median declining, or the first and second decile becoming very low - but if they do, that is an indication that the university is accepting students with lower credentials.
I tend to agree, but we (VU) needs to get the students that make a difference, instead of those that were accepted.
Fourty years ago, the in state schools (IU, Purdue, Illinois, MI, and MSU didn't need to recruit above those that were applying. Not the case today.
While many of us feel that our experience at VU is exceptional, students looking at colleges today aren't so sure.
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The acceptance rate is one thing but my guess is that students of lower quality just aren't applying as the perception is "it's private and hard" so I won't bother. The incoming class had a average GPA of 3.72.
valpo22 - Glad that faculty interactions with prospective students is happening, but I do think something so important needs to be systematic. I agree that it is not the silver bullet, since turning around admissions involves a lot of things (including marketing). But it is important.
For marketing, one thing that I have wondered is whether Valpo sufficiently markets its colleges for the value that each college brings.
Nice Torch article on the Access College program.
http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_2172a282-4e5e-11ee-9112-cbfd4ee6e5eb.html
Quote from: valpo22 on September 10, 2023, 01:15:33 PM
Pal, I appreciate your optimism and I see how the numbers are playing out that you'd estimated --but I guess prior to this, I'd still had some hope that maybe your numbers weren't yet including the Access students or the sophomore/junior/senior transfers. So it is a bummer to see confirmed that so many of the 'new students' are not going to be the sort who stay around (or pay for) four years; and as far as I know, even if the Access students pay tuition (?), they belong to the growing undergrad commuter population -- which is its own issue in terms of commuter students not bringing in the room and board dollars that the traditional residential students used to. (BTW, I am not trying to suggest that students only matter in terms of the dollars they bring in, of course not. Just trying to point out these 'new students' numbers mask a lot about the changing composition of the student body and the related financial implications).
Please don't confuse my past statement of the enrollment facts as "optimism." I have been neither optimistic nor pessimistic, but just trying to be accurate. Also, today's article in the
Torch confirms what I had previously been told about the Access students when advised about enrollment numbers for this year, almost all (23 out of 26) are living on campus. Finally, I have been informed the intention is to increase next year's class of Access students to maybe 40 or more.
Quote from: vu72 on September 11, 2023, 10:51:02 AM
Nice Torch article on the Access College program.
http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_2172a282-4e5e-11ee-9112-cbfd4ee6e5eb.html
The article is well written and, to a degree, I can see some societal value. But what are the financials for this program? It is good to see that most live on campus, but (again) as this is essentially a junior college program I cannot see that these students are paying much more than JC tuition...yet the costs to Valpo cannot be much less than it would be if these students were four-year students. Further, what is the value of a two-year associates degree in University Studies? I hope that I eat my words on this and that these students continue at Valpo to get a far more valuable four-year degree...but I am dubious as there will be other far lower cost options for them to complete a four-year degree.
That program don't really move any needles in student numbers. So it's a very minor element.
In cold hard reality, the question Moody's Bond ratings will seek is the net revenue received from our new total Fall 2023 enrollment. On this board we can only speculate.
Dropping by a net 100 students in the undergraduate sector predicts lower income. But it's not a perfect correlation. What is the entering class total net tuition vs. the net total from a larger senior class who left last spring?
Let's pray that a Bradley U. sized cutback isn't coming in the next few months. Weasel words in headlines such as "new Beacons" typically mask a problem.
Quote from: VUSupport on August 27, 2023, 04:07:51 PM
I just don't understand how the VP of Enrollment tells Valpopal wrong info of 602 new freshmen and over 100 transfers. Just own up to your numbers....
Since the final census totals are 599 freshmen and 104 transfers, just about the same as the projections I posted in mid-August and only a few off what the VP of Enrollment reported during the first week of classes, perhaps you should now
own up to your numbers, which were way off and you claimed to have verified with the Registrar.
My opinion is that the comments in this article come off as, "look at this nice thing we are doing instead of looking at how we did not reach our enrollment goals." This is a classic political move that would rarely or neever be allowed of a business leader who missed key performance goals. And here are some questions not being addressed about the Access College program: what is the tuition being paid by the students in the program relative to other first and second year students in the university? if students are in a two-year program that will yield a nearly worthless University Studies associates degree, how much longer than the traditional four years will it take for Access College students to complete a degree in nursing, business, etc. On the latter point, maybe I am missing something, but it doesn't seem that students in this program would be keeping pace with their peers who started in nursing, business, etc.
There are far better ways to have programs for first generation students and other students who would be at greater risk. Bring them in for the first summer and provide support while having them take two classes to get ahead...then have them take a little lighter load as they start a real major. Use the cohort program only to provide additional advising and support.
Quote from: valpopal on September 12, 2023, 04:52:23 PM
Quote from: VUSupport on August 27, 2023, 04:07:51 PM
I just don't understand how the VP of Enrollment tells Valpopal wrong info of 602 new freshmen and over 100 transfers. Just own up to your numbers....
Since the final census totals are 599 freshmen and 104 transfers, just about the same as the projections I posted in mid-August and only a few off what the VP of Enrollment reported during the first week of classes, perhaps you should now own up to your numbers, which were way off and you claimed to have verified with the Registrar.
The more important story is what the numbers mean to the university's future. Best case scenario, enrollment declined by another 3.2% year-over-year. I encourage you to look up '72's "Moody's rating" post from May to see what Valpo can anticipate going forward.
Quote from: crusadermoe on September 11, 2023, 02:35:38 PM
Let's pray that a Bradley U. sized cutback isn't coming in the next few months. Weasel words in headlines such as "new Beacons" typically mask a problem.
Since I rarely post and mostly lurk here, just to reintroduce myself, I'm a VU alum and current Bradley parent. With a vested interest in the success of both institutions, I'm always interested in discussions about both as the obvious peers they are.
I certainly hope VU isn't looking at a BU type of cutback, but I'm not optimistic after seeing VU's census figures. I agree that that type of language is often used to mask issues.
The BU announcement took many people associated with the university by surprise. Everyone knows it's facing the same headwinds as its peers, but all indications were that it was at least faring better than many and had some modicum of relative stability. There had been some cuts a few years ago, but the situation had seemed to have stabilized.
BU hasn't released its 10 day census yet, but according to the article I mention below, first year students may be down as much as 18% from last year. That's after several years of small declines and essentially flat numbers from what I've seen of BU's data. With the BU cuts announced so close to the beginning of the academic year, it was clear this fall's numbers would be bad.
BU has indicated campus visit numbers for next year's incoming class are breaking records. Hopefully VU is seeing a similar trend with campus visits. I don't know if VU has publicly indicated how things are going on that front.
I can't post external links, but the article I mentioned above is entitled 'Local Colleges Remain Hopeful as Enrollment Numbers Dip' from centralillinoisproud.com (WMBD TV in Peoria), posted on July 20, 2023.
I think I am stating the obvious. But the Moody's rating is highly relevant because it guides the interest rate for any VU debt rollover we need to do or want to do.
I don't know the Bradley rating from Moody. And yes, I was ALSO surprised by the big Bradley cuts because not long ago there was an article about some very large grants that seemed usable for budgetary use. Not going to take the time to chase it down. So maybe I am wrong.
The flagships are staying even and even growing slightly due to their brand and generous grants to in-state kids. They have some budget shortfalls, but percent wise not severe and they have plenty of fat to cut. Cutting the the swarm of new hired diversity officers alone could probably make flagship budget cuts attainable.
Again my friends, take a look at the home page of VU's website: https://www.valpo.edu (https://www.valpo.edu) How does it sell the University? What qualities does it project about the school? Does it make you want to learn more? If you're like me, you come up with a big zero.
Thinking WAY outside the box here I guess. You built brand new Beacon Hall and renovated Guild-Memorial. When students rising in grades into Soph-Senior they are more likely to choose off-campus housing for various reasons.
So why not devote your very best dormitories to freshman housing. In their new year you want to keep track of them and maybe mom and dad can let go of Johnny or Jenny if they can assure themselves each will have more comfy room in which to face the cruel new adult world.
Then the kids as sophomores upward either wash out or they can seek their way into new places like the apartments that are right freakin' next to the campus.
Wow. That was the policy when I was there. I just figured they had been forced out of that policy by modern expectations families have now.
Oh....maybe that's a factor in our recruitment?
Most of the State Univs now have university "affiliated" apartments (privately built and owned) in which four kids get their own bedroom and bathroom and they can do it as sophomores...even freshmen. The prices often not hugely more than dormitories and you get more days for the price because you don't get locked out all summer or during school breaks.
Quote from: valpo22 on September 15, 2023, 12:30:50 PM
D81, can you explain more what you want the website's front page to say? Or give an example of one that's better? So many unis now just seem to basically fill the homepage with large images cycling, and that is what Valpo has. I agree it's probably under-utilizing a chance to pitch Valpo in some distinctive way, but am just not sure what a better example that gives more content-punch might be. I feel like a lot of them really make a lot out of location if they're in a popular city that offers partiuclar resources to students, but what is Valpo going to say, "We're not Gary!"? Honestly, that is is how a lot of Valparaiso folk understand the region, but you can hardly put that in glowing letters on the website.
valpo22, if you really believe that all that VU has to offer or clarify is that "We're not Gary!," then perhaps it's time to call it day for VU. But I assume you're being facetious, so I'll offer a serious response.
So my personal choice for a new VU tagline has been: "Values. Vocation. Valparaiso." In other words, instead of fighting this professional training vs. liberal arts battle, embrace the fact that at a school like VU, you can learn some valuable skills that will help you earn a living
and think about some big picture questions about what kind of person you want to be. And that tagline should be a prominent part of the homepage.
But regardless of how the University wants to define itself, that message should be made clear, along with a much better selection of permanent and cycling content.
By contrast:
DePaul -- Yes, I know DePaul has Chicago and VU doesn't. But their homepage it does a better job at other things too.
https://www.depaul.edu/Pages/default.aspx (https://www.depaul.edu/Pages/default.aspx)
Bradley -- I know they're struggling like VU. But their homepage does a better job selling the school.
https://www.bradley.edu (https://www.bradley.edu)
Drake -- A lot more going on there, including much better cycling visuals.
https://www.drake.edu (https://www.drake.edu)
Dayton -- "Come Fly With Us" -- OK, so VU can't claim the Wright Brothers. But the home page tells more of their story. The posted video is a little too intense for my druthers, but at least they're making the effort to share who they are.
https://udayton.edu (https://udayton.edu)
Here is a newer Bradley story on August 29 after the first one July 31.
This article divulges the Bradley enrollment drop. The BU president says there is 25% excess capacity in midwest higher education and that midwest colleges discount their tuitions by 64%. Yikes!!
https://www.nprillinois.org/illinois/2023-08-29/bradley-university-looks-to-finalize-cost-cutting-decisions-by-end-of-the-year
I apologize in advance if this is old news. I haven't been following the enrollment thread for awhile. I noticed that the Fall Headcount for 2023-24 has been posted. I threw a few numbers together for comparison with last fall. If my math is correct, headcount appears to have declined by about 3%. Not what we were hoping, but far from cataclysmic, IMO. Keep grinding, Valpo. Better days are ahead!
Total enrollment
2023 2868
2022 2964
Diff. -96 (-3.3%)
Graduate enrollment
2023 591
2022 609
Diff. -18 (-3.0%)
Undergrad enrollment
2023 2277
2022 2355
Diff. -78 (-3.3%)
https://www.valpo.edu/institutional-effectiveness/institutional-research/enrollment-data/
Please free to check my math for accuracy.
Looks right. And if you dig deeper, you will find that the number of census 2023-2024 enrolled SENIORS s larger than enrolled freshmen by a net of more than 70.
So next fall you need 70 more just to pull even with this year's number before you start gaining. This is going to be tough. But as WH says, "keep grinding." I do like David81 tag line of three V's. But execution is equally important or more important than a magic bullet.
We've had discussions here about how the decline in younger folks seeking college degrees might affect VU, including the phenomenon of those affirmatively passing on college. Well, whether it's at VU or elsewhere, it appears that we're seeing some pushback on the trashing of a college degree, including research demonstrating noticeably shorter average lifespans for those who do not have a 4-year degree. It's a long url to ensure free access:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/opinion/life-expectancy-college-degree.html?unlocked_article_code=m9VE3rTdHw5CNjEJuU02xA8VYDxRW_ernJUv6zHjYu9qrPGtqKtbdhlO-H9UYGUfaFVW89AcPprUfr6-gAvZXj5Q-kfrM7WOpt28m1pi6e8QHqmw0fPw7bYcidnoNhYCH2ILNdDdmDV7RbKoOOwWvvpRMqXLndJbrZociwDhBuKHXkl6t2ytaehT33Rp6g-wUAvnzcHd5ccHK-RGTUudJy-wPW6UDFN8u3RHxkzmkXw-6V64jNzO9aS5iCAjVOjJ9WEUZ2l7IbQ7Ed0IHHcOC0j0BVtAguioMaP8fP_-FcACgCgToz84zlsk7vAEGtWoKeZIr01ftYW4kwlE5Lv5ciJ7q2BmK1j7_A&smid=url-share (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/opinion/life-expectancy-college-degree.html?unlocked_article_code=m9VE3rTdHw5CNjEJuU02xA8VYDxRW_ernJUv6zHjYu9qrPGtqKtbdhlO-H9UYGUfaFVW89AcPprUfr6-gAvZXj5Q-kfrM7WOpt28m1pi6e8QHqmw0fPw7bYcidnoNhYCH2ILNdDdmDV7RbKoOOwWvvpRMqXLndJbrZociwDhBuKHXkl6t2ytaehT33Rp6g-wUAvnzcHd5ccHK-RGTUudJy-wPW6UDFN8u3RHxkzmkXw-6V64jNzO9aS5iCAjVOjJ9WEUZ2l7IbQ7Ed0IHHcOC0j0BVtAguioMaP8fP_-FcACgCgToz84zlsk7vAEGtWoKeZIr01ftYW4kwlE5Lv5ciJ7q2BmK1j7_A&smid=url-share)
There would be a long story behind this. If you mix in ALL of our age 25+ Americans I am not surprised that the whole 25+ U.S. adults group is dying younger than in Europe or Japan. I suspect that comes from have higher crime rates, drug crises, and dangerous farm and construction work done on our huge land parcelss and buildings.
Intuitively I am guessing that the gap between 4-year degree graduates and a sub-group of those 25+ year old adults is FAR NARROWER. The East Coast elitist professionals typically view the world this way. A more helpful comparison would be to compare the 4-year graduates to sub-group of 25+ who have 2-year degrees (data systems or health) or are certified trades people. Those options are available to the smart kids otherwise capable who might be opting our of 4-year degrees.
As an empiricist who reviews for major academic journals, I see problems with the one or more studies associated with this book. I pulled up their publication on this in the American Economic Review (one of the most elite journals in the country) and their previous publication on this subject in another journal so that I could get a look at their empirical analysis. While admittedly I did not read the papers in detail, a quick scan and some basic searches indicated that there was no assessment of endogenous effects. Specifically, there is no analysis regarding whether there are factors that directly affect both the independent variable (whether someone goes to college) and the outcome (lifespan). I am sort of baffled at how the editor and reviewers in a very top economic journal - where exceptional econometric methods are sacred - did not require this. Heck, they did not even call out endogenous effects as a limitation of the study.
My view is that the findings are correlation only and that you cannot take anything meaningful away from this study.
For a bit of perspective on enrollment numbers, the October issue of the LCMS Reporter (the monthly newspaper of the LCMS) just arrived. My wife is a Concordia Seward grad and a former teacher in the system, so we get a copy for free.
Concordia Mequon (WI) Fall 2023 new traditional undergraduate enrollment (new first years) was up 7% year on year.
Concordia Ann Arbor (MI) Fall 2023 was a record high, and new traditional undergraduate enrollment was an all-time record. New enrollment at AA was still only 370, yet this was up 60% since 2013.
Concordia Seward (NE) Fall 2023 had the highest new full time undergrads in 50 years
The article didn't list anything about the other campuses, yet it does show there is a potential market for Lutheran-affiliated undergraduate education. If I were President Padilla, I would be asking some hard questions about how those campuses could be growing enrollment while Valpo is not.
For YEARS now I have advised anyone who would listen that we need to renew our emphasis on recruiting Lutheran kids since, you know, we brand ourselves as an "independent Lutheran university." I pointed out that Lutheran kids were attending college SOMEWHERE. 55 Lutheran kids in last year's freshman class is a joke.
The stats on the enrollment #s for the Concordia schools posted by valpo95 are completely disheartening. I'm done - finished - trying to get VU to adjust its recruitment strategy which, if we go by the numbers for the past 10-20 years, is NOT working.
There are a lot of smart people running this place, to be sure, but they don't seem to make smart choices in a lot of areas.
(I have to say this - at a get together of 12 VU grads recently, only 1 thought the Beacon name was a good idea. And since we play Drake this weekend, I've heard from 5 or 6 from my Drake Law colleagues, all but one of whom gave me grief about the Beacon name and our mascots (if you can call a cartoon dog a mascot). Point is, this name change (the election results were never made public, to my knowledge) and mascots are a flat -out embarrassment to this University.)
Sorry, in a pessimistic mood today.
Paul
Padilla might not understand yet the size of the LCMS school system all the way down into K-12 and know the historic strong Valpo pipeline of the 1950s-1990s. The ELCA basically has zero high schools and grade schools. So the LCMS kids are easier to pinpoint.
My sense from afar is that Padilla is a pragmatic man. Once he understands the Valpo78 observations of foolish neglect and poor execution in that LCMS pipeline, he may be very irritated. Heckler seemed to be more of a dreamer with an ear more drawn to ideology.
Padilla: "So let me understand this,...there are x hundred kids graduating from an LCMS pipeline each year? And they were historically a core of your enrollment? And we enrolled how many this year? Last year? Last 20 years? When did that trend start? What did we change? And what were some reasons? He's a lawyer. I would not want to be in that witness stand.
Quote from: 78crusader on October 05, 2023, 03:21:57 PM
For YEARS now I have advised anyone who would listen that we need to renew our emphasis on recruiting Lutheran kids since, you know, we brand ourselves as an "independent Lutheran university." I pointed out that Lutheran kids were attending college SOMEWHERE. 55 Lutheran kids in last year's freshman class is a joke.
The stats on the enrollment #s for the Concordia schools posted by valpo95 are completely disheartening. I'm done - finished - trying to get VU to adjust its recruitment strategy which, if we go by the numbers for the past 10-20 years, is NOT working.
There are a lot of smart people running this place, to be sure, but they don't seem to make smart choices in a lot of areas.
(I have to say this - at a get together of 12 VU grads recently, only 1 thought the Beacon name was a good idea. And since we play Drake this weekend, I've heard from 5 or 6 from my Drake Law colleagues, all but one of whom gave me grief about the Beacon name and our mascots (if you can call a cartoon dog a mascot). Point is, this name change (the election results were never made public, to my knowledge) and mascots are a flat -out embarrassment to this University.)
Sorry, in a pessimistic mood today.
Paul
So if I understand your point correctly, Lutheran kids would be flocking to Valpo if we were the Bulldogs and have a fierce looking dog as a mascot, but certainly won't be coming because we are Beacons and have a friendly, kids favorable pair of gentle pooches?
In the immortal words of John Mcenroe, "you've got to be joking!"
The first three paragraphs are the meat of 78's post. And he makes a valid argument. But I recall some time ago that Padilla flagged that as a recruiting priority going forward. And rightly so.
Totally agree. I have written to numerous VP's of Recruitment on same. It was the Beacon/dogs thing that I found preposterous.
Quote from: VULB#62 on October 06, 2023, 09:54:37 PM
I recall that some time ago that Padilla flagged that as a recruiting priority going forward. And rightly so.
Meanwhile, the prez is on his third VP of enrollment. If the answer is obvious, and this has been a priority for a while, where's the disconnect? Does anyone think we'll see VP #4 in 2024?
I will continue to say that you can definitely hope for a strong Lutheran pipeline and I respect that view, but the fact is that you are tying your university to a dwindling population of folks that care about religion of any kind. What are the %'s of the folks at those Concordia schools who actually identify as Lutheran? My generation (Gen X/Millenial border) is a lot less religious versus the prior generation. The two generations (Millenial & Z) after mine are even less religious than my generation. It is only going to continue this direction with future generations.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/modeling-the-future-of-religion-in-america/#:~:text=The%20Center%20estimates%20that%20in,Buddhists%20%E2%80%93%20totaled%20about%206%25.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/
valpotx, your point about the demographic headwinds is well taken. I don't think anyone would suggest an exclusive focus on a declining population. Yet it begs the question why can Concordia Ann Arbor, Mequon and Seward be growing their undergraduate populations, while Valpo is declining or at best treading water? If VU's recruitment strategy is to focus on a different population, that doesn't seem to be working, either.
The decline of religious identity in Gen Z has been well documented, but so has VU's failure to recruit kids from Lutheran high schools been a steady point made on this board for several years. VU doesn't have to corner the market on graduates of Lutheran schools, but shouldn't it be able to bring in at least another, say, 30-40 Lutheran kids each year?
Quote from: 78crusader on October 05, 2023, 03:21:57 PM
(I have to say this - at a get together of 12 VU grads recently, only 1 thought the Beacon name was a good idea. And since we play Drake this weekend, I've heard from 5 or 6 from my Drake Law colleagues, all but one of whom gave me grief about the Beacon name and our mascots (if you can call a cartoon dog a mascot). Point is, this name change (the election results were never made public, to my knowledge) and mascots are a flat -out embarrassment to this University.)
Sorry, in a pessimistic mood today.
Paul
C'mon Paul, had the Beacons given Drake a hearty beating on the football field on Saturday, your pals woulda been singing a different tune.
A school down the road has a dang leprechaun as a mascot. All it takes is a winning team (OK, not today against Louisville) to turn a mascot into a big whatever.
Without clear enrollment strategy and tactics you can't succeed because you can't recruit each of the 1 million or more 12th graders every year. Somewhere in the "strategic plan" internal details there must be a target number of students from Lutheran high schools. If that target is absent, then it speaks more loudly about Lutheran identity than a conservative target.
VU72, despite his numerous efforts, has never heard assurance of this priority or seen evidence that it gets carried out.
Yes, ValpoTX is absolutely right that Lutherans as a church body are decreasing and that it can't become a dominant strategy. But is logical to start there in defining your targets since it can be rapidly identified. I think there may be several Lutheran high schools who graduate half or more of their classes as non-Lutherans. If those parents and students were open to Lutheran influence, then they are certainly higher than the vague pools of kids with no family or school affinity.
Quote from: crusadermoe on October 11, 2023, 09:16:59 AM
Without clear enrollment strategy and tactics you can't succeed because you can't recruit each of the 1 million or more 12th graders every year. Somewhere in the "strategic plan" internal details there must be a target number of students from Lutheran high schools. If that target is absent, then it speaks more loudly about Lutheran identity than a conservative target.
VU72, despite his numerous efforts, has never heard assurance of this priority or seen evidence that it gets carried out.
Yes, ValpoTX is absolutely right that Lutherans as a church body are decreasing and that it can't become a dominant strategy. But is logical to start there in defining your targets since it can be rapidly identified. I think there may be several Lutheran high schools who graduate half or more of their classes as non-Lutherans. If those parents and students were open to Lutheran influence, then they are certainly higher than the vague pools of kids with no family or school affinity.
To put some numbers to it, LCMS records from 2021-2022, show 17,388 high school kids attending their schools. Assuming 25% are seniors, that's 4,347 target kids to begin with. BTW, that is a total enrollment gain of over 1000 from the year before. While ELCA statistics are more difficult to find, they do count 1400 schools under their denomination but most are elementary and pre-school. Surprisingly, WELS has a number of Lutheran High Schools as well.
It will take an entire change of direction driven by money--no doubt, but it is doable. As an example of a change of direction, witness the following: A couple of Sundays ago, my little Lutheran Church (maybe 350 members with weekly attendance of about 175) located in suburban Dallas, was visited by the President of Texas Lutheran University where she delivered the sermon. Now, we might have 5 kids graduating this year at the most, yet she showed up to promote her University. THAT, is a concerted effort. Lord, let it be done.
Just some questions to which I don't have solid answers about a Lutheran-specific target sub-market.
> For starters, does VU maintain an up-to-date database of all US Lutheran Churches?
> Does every LCMS church receive a poster with detachable contact info from the Valparaiso University admissions/recruitment office every September? How about other Lutheran synods/whatevers?
> Does VU maintain an up-to-date database of all US Lutheran high schools and HS guidance offices?
> Does every Lutheran HS guidance office (regardless of LCMS, ELCA, etc.) receive Valpo recruiting posters annually?
> Are there specific, multiple, mass mailings (both electronic and snail) regularly sent directly to Lutheran HS guidance personnel?
I'm not even going into direct phone/text/personal outreach strategies given how small the staff is.
Need to brag a little on the College of Engineering:
-Career placement rate for 2023 graduates: 100% (meaning they landed a job, are pursuing graduate work, or are performing military service).
-Current enrollment is 29.1% women and 18.4% from underrepresented groups.
Your post seems to belong in the "Good Things at Valpo" thread.
Going to Valpo62 and others' points:
Back to enrollment: I wonder how many applications we have received year over year due thanks to the Facebook barrage of the "Get $24,000 if you have a 3.0 GPA" I can see the strategy in the bizarre pricing market of private education. So logically the number of applicants should broaden.
But my meritocratic mindset just hates that giveaway with "no tests required."
Quote from: crusadermoe on October 12, 2023, 02:10:59 PM
that giveaway with "no tests required."
Most schools - and good ones, too - are moving to test-optional. A standardized test is a barrier to applying, and so I think Valpo is wise not to require it in a drive for more applications.
My daughter is at Rice and tests ores we're not required. I think it's a good because it forces admissions to look at the whole resume of the applicant to decide if he or she should be be accepted. In the past, too much emphasis was placed on the test score.
Quote from: valpo22 on October 17, 2023, 01:42:19 AM
The VP for Enrollment and Marketing explains a bit about the enrollment strategy in the recent Torch article: http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_e6f3a9c2-6847-11ee-b9f0-67b85d7f14f2.html
A few observatations/comments:
-While many universities are not requiring the ACT or SAT, they are also adding entry tests before students start classes. The simple reason is that far more students are not ready in specific areas like math.
-Transcripts are becoming less meaningful because there has been increased grade inflation in high schools (it has always been there, but it is much worse now).
-I know that it is only one article, but her comments point towards a very centralized approach to marketing and enrollment - and, if true, it is wrong for Valpo to be so centralized. There needs to be a personal connection with each potential student for each college...thus the approach needs to be a combination of university-level AND college-specific.
Fair points by USC Valpo. But Rice is a totally different animal. I highly doubt you will see folks try to slip into Rice with really marginal abilities to do well.
Valpo has dropped a level into regional battles to snag every applicant they can find. Warm bodies with a 3.0 are welcome. But I suppose there are some sleepers in that batch who might trip up on tests. Good for them.
I just read the article and was wholly unimpressed. Are the verbs "outreach" (twice) and "be like" now verbs in a new urban dictionary. I am too depressed to inquire.
In either case I don't feel that a senior administrator like Ms. Schur should be using either verb. If the quote is paraphrased by the Torch writer, then I am only depressed for their generation (as I "be like" expected) and have less fear of our administrators.
This should help enrollment in the Nursing Program and boost interest in a new building for it:
Valparaiso University and University of Chicago Medicine Create New Student Training Program in Northwest Indiana
Oct. 17, 2023 – Valparaiso University and the University of Chicago Medicine are launching a new training program that gives future health care professionals in northwest Indiana vital, practical experience before they begin their careers. Under terms of the joint agreement between the university and the Chicago-based academic health system, students in Valparaiso University's College of Nursing and Health Professions will have priority for placement to complete required clinical, practicum, internship, fieldwork, and other experiential learning opportunities at UChicago Medicine's new 130,000-square-foot multispecialty care center and micro-hospital in Crown Point....
Through the effort, Valpo students from all College of Nursing programs may become eligible to work at UChicago Medicine's largest off-site facility when it opens in spring 2024. Students in nursing (BSN, DNP), physician assistant (MSPAS), occupational Therapy (Dr.OT, OTD), public health (BSPH, MPH), health care leadership and administration (BSHCL, MHA), health science (BSHS), and exercise science (BSExSc) will have the opportunity to complete their experiential learning requirements alongside professional UChicago Medicine staff. Other students, such as those in health sciences, health care leadership and health care administration, will work within the Crown Point center in supervised administrative roles.
UChicago Medicine's new Crown Point facility will have an eight-bed emergency department, a short-stay inpatient unit, imaging, outpatient surgery, laboratory services, medical offices and a cancer center with infusion therapy as well as radiation, medical and surgical oncology.
Some students may also do educational rotations at the University of Chicago Medical Center, UChicago Medicine's flagship campus in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood. All students will be required to be clinically cleared for the placement work and meet program requirements.
Quote from: valpo22 on October 17, 2023, 01:42:19 AM
The VP for Enrollment and Marketing explains a bit about the enrollment strategy in the recent Torch article: http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_e6f3a9c2-6847-11ee-b9f0-67b85d7f14f2.html
Title of article is "University admission rate trends up, yield goes down"
Is either of these good? Can our admission rate get any higher? I can accept that yield goes down, but only if we received many more applications.
Quote from: covufan on October 17, 2023, 09:53:14 PM
Quote from: valpo22 on October 17, 2023, 01:42:19 AM
The VP for Enrollment and Marketing explains a bit about the enrollment strategy in the recent Torch article: http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_e6f3a9c2-6847-11ee-b9f0-67b85d7f14f2.html
Title of article is "University admission rate trends up, yield goes down"
Is either of these good? Can our admission rate get any higher? I can accept that yield goes down, but only if we received many more applications.
There are only three measures that the university should use to assess whether it is doing well in enrollment: new first-year student enrollment, discount rate, net transfers (or a related measure like first to second year student retention combined with transfers out). Indicators like number of applications are fine, but they are strictly indicators and should not be used to conclude that things are better/great (especially by comparing them to prior years in which the results were below expectations). Further, there are better indicators such as visits that may get "hidden" if they are below the expected number needed to achieve the enrollment goals.
If you look at typical scattershot graphs of test scores and undergraduate academic performance, then you'll see that some schools have given standardized test scores too much weight in the admissions process.
However, I wouldn't disregard them completely, especially in the very low or very high ranges. For example: Very low test scores can help to identify likely problem areas that may be indicative of academic difficulty in college. A strong academic performance in high school can offset those concerns. On the other end, someone with very high test scores and mediocre high school performance may serve as both a yellow flag and some evidence that an applicant has the raw ability to succeed.
In other words, test scores are just one indicator of potential academic success.
The practical challenge is that the US News rankings place considerable weight on average test scores for entering classes, and so sometimes you have the rankings tail wagging the university dog.
On a personal note, I am disappointed that VU does not put more effort into recruiting the Fort Wayne and Northeast Indiana market for more students. Concordia Lutheran High in FW gets bombarded by all the "mid-west" Concordias...AnnArbor, Chicago, Wisconsin(Milwaukee) and Seward , Nebraska. Last year was really disappointing in that there were no Valpo selections but a good number of Concordia recruits for that senior class.
I really think Valpo is sometimes a hidden gem and the great facts and attributes of our School are not being conveyed to the junior and senior classes of high schools in this area.
Quote from: valpo64 on October 20, 2023, 10:29:35 AM
On a personal note, I am disappointed that VU does not put more effort into recruiting the Fort Wayne and Northeast Indiana market for more students. Concordia Lutheran High in FW gets bombarded by all the "mid-west" Concordias...AnnArbor, Chicago, Wisconsin(Milwaukee) and Seward , Nebraska. Last year was really disappointing in that there were no Valpo selections but a good number of Concordia recruits for that senior class.
I really think Valpo is sometimes a hidden gem and the great facts and attributes of our School are not being conveyed to the junior and senior classes of high schools in this area.
I have had communications with the VP of enrollment who assured me that a concerted effort to reach out to Lutheran high schools, particularly in the Midwest, is underway.
Quote from: vu72 on October 20, 2023, 11:56:57 AM
Quote from: valpo64 on October 20, 2023, 10:29:35 AM
On a personal note, I am disappointed that VU does not put more effort into recruiting the Fort Wayne and Northeast Indiana market for more students. Concordia Lutheran High in FW gets bombarded by all the "mid-west" Concordias...AnnArbor, Chicago, Wisconsin(Milwaukee) and Seward , Nebraska. Last year was really disappointing in that there were no Valpo selections but a good number of Concordia recruits for that senior class.
I really think Valpo is sometimes a hidden gem and the great facts and attributes of our School are not being conveyed to the junior and senior classes of high schools in this area.
I have had communications with the VP of enrollment who assured me that a concerted effort to reach out to Lutheran high schools, particularly in the Midwest, is underway.
This is, to me anyway, the most disappointing and infuriating post ever on this board. Not because of what vu72 said (his insights and information are very much appreciated), but the fact that university vice president admits that a "concerted effort" to reach "Lutheran high schools" is now UNDERWAY. What the heck? Underway? What in the world has VU been doing the last 20 years? The answer, of course, is that the university HASN'T been making an effort to reach out to what should be a natural source of prospective students. And the results speak for themselves.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on October 20, 2023, 03:33:50 PM
Quote from: vu72 on October 20, 2023, 11:56:57 AM
Quote from: valpo64 on October 20, 2023, 10:29:35 AM
On a personal note, I am disappointed that VU does not put more effort into recruiting the Fort Wayne and Northeast Indiana market for more students. Concordia Lutheran High in FW gets bombarded by all the "mid-west" Concordias...AnnArbor, Chicago, Wisconsin(Milwaukee) and Seward , Nebraska. Last year was really disappointing in that there were no Valpo selections but a good number of Concordia recruits for that senior class.
I really think Valpo is sometimes a hidden gem and the great facts and attributes of our School are not being conveyed to the junior and senior classes of high schools in this area.
I have had communications with the VP of enrollment who assured me that a concerted effort to reach out to Lutheran high schools, particularly in the Midwest, is underway.
This is, to me anyway, the most disappointing and infuriating post ever on this board. Not because of what vu72 said (his insights and information are very much appreciated), but the fact that university vice president admits that a "concerted effort" to reach "Lutheran high schools" is now UNDERWAY. What the heck? Underway? What in the world has VU been doing the last 20 years? The answer, of course, is that the university HASN'T been making an effort to reach out to what should be a natural source of prospective students. And the results speak for themselves.
Paul
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Quote from: David81 on October 19, 2023, 10:16:25 AMand so sometimes you have the rankings tail wagging the university dog.
And if you have 2 university dogs, and I truly mean dogs, named Beacon & Blaze, what does that wag?
The concerted effort is most likely underway because Padilla and his cabinet have been so blindly banking on the hopes of making VU an HSI. Padilla and the new. p of Enrollment and Marketing failing
Take it easy gang on the mascots. We just need to add more money to attract creative writing majors.
Blaming Padilla's efforts to bring in more Hispanic/Latino applicants -- a demographic wave that all schools should be looking at -- for inadequate recruiting of Lutheran-affiliated H.S. students is just the kind of zero-sum, dog-whistle kind of nonsense that is plain wrong.
It's pretty clear that VU inexplicably has been neglecting the potential Lutheran student pool for some time, and now Padilla's team is trying to do something about that.
There's no principled reason why VU cannot try to expand its own pie, and that indeed is what will happen if both of these outreach initiatives are successful.
Agreed. Both objectives can be managed together. It's not a zero sum game.
Your word "neglected" for Lutheran recruitment focus seems entirely fair and very embarrassing. Does the enrollment staff buy into the latter? And do the faculty? There has to be some explanation for it.
Quote from: David81 on October 21, 2023, 05:57:58 PMif both of these outreach initiatives are successful.
This belated, renewed outreach to Lutheran high schools is going to be very hard.
In the legal world, if you take repeat clients for granted - if you don't make a consistent effort to make them feel special, that their business is not only of utmost importance but also very much appreciated and valued, they eventually go elsewhere. And they usually find a law firm they like just as well, if not better. After all, there are plenty of good law firms around, just like they are plenty of good colleges to attend.
Not just the legal world, but any business -including the business of running a private university.
VU should know this. But for some reason this philosophy got put on the back shelf. To borrow a legal term, the decision to de-emphasize Lutheran recruitment was higher education negligence.
One can only imagine the incredulity of the Concordia colleges when they realized VU wasn't going hard after the Lutheran high schools anymore, and the glee with which they renewed their already-determined efforts to recruit these students.
(Maybe 10 years ago the alarm bell sounded for me when I learned a football-playing, high caliber Lutheran high school student in Indiana had not received a SINGLE letter, phone call - nothing, zero interest - from VU.)
So, VU has ceded this territory to others and now wants it back. This might work, but I would not bet on it. While we were sleeping the Concordias - and others - have established relationships with these high schools that will be hard to dislodge.
Paul
It is not just the enrollment staff.
Historically, VU faculty and leadership had deep and longstanding ties to the LCMS. President Harre was an ordained LCMS pastor and was formerly the president of Concordia St. Paul before coming to Valpo. In 1990 or so, he hired Dr. William Karpenko to lead VU's Office of Church relations. Karpenko had previously led the DCE program at Concordia Seward for about 20 years. Between the two of them, they probably personally knew or had met more than 90% of the LCMS pastors and DCEs in the USA.
Of course, there are other Lutheran church bodies beyond the LCMS. Yet the relationships and respect afforded to people like Harre and Karpenko probably opened a lot of doors into continuing recruitment of Lutheran students from both Lutheran and non-Lutheran high schools.
Who among the VU leadership has those ties for VU as of today?
Indeed it will be an uphill fight for those relationship reasons. You won't have the same HS guidance counselors you nurtured 20-30 years ago sit waiting with open arms.
But this annual cohort of Lutheran HS seniors is just too crucial to neglect. Yes, the term "neglect" seems fair. One might also call it dereliction of duty by Heckler. How many came to VU from those schools in 2008-2021 and what percent? Compare that to the percent prior to Heckler. Maybe I am wrong.
A few comments here:
-There is no reason why, if Valpo targets Lutheran high schools where the Concordias have developed an advantage, Valpo should not get a majority of the prospective students. The Concordias are not highly accredited - which ends up making a huge difference in finding a good job outside of the healthcare professions (e.g., the major companies in Milwaukee do not go to Concordia (WI) to seek and interview new graduates). If you were going to study business, for instance, my guess is that a Valpo grad would get (on average) 15% more starting salary than a student graduating from a Concordia...and that the Valpo grad has a significantly better chance of landing a job. There is so much demand in healthcare that everyone gets a job - but the better jobs are going to go to Valpo nursing students, PA students, etc. versus graduates from the Concordias.
-How split are the various synods and groups within the Lutheran faith. Do people in the Wisconsin Synod or LCMS consider those in ELCA to be Lutheran?
-The Concordias (or at least Wisconsin) require all employees to be Christian (prospective and new employees are required to state their faith).
We have to start somewhere and it sounds like we have made a beginning effort to rectify the situation in the long run. It is a shame we basically wasted a couple of decades is rebuilding the bridges to this segment of high school juniors and seniors. The comments made about the difference in the Concordias education vs. Valpo is well taken, including both academics and athletics. However the point is the Valpo name and all that goes with it needs to be put out there and ready to compete with the Concordias of the day. It is very basic...WE NEED TO GET OUR SCHOOL'S NAME OUT THERE ON A REGUALR AND CONSISTENT BASIS. It is a shame that the Fort Wayne and Northeastern IN markets, along with Michigan and Ohio, afe not better represented in Valpo's student body demographics. Let's hope that the University's rejuvenated recruitment efforts will be successful.
Quote from: valpo22 on October 23, 2023, 11:04:01 AM
I do think most or all faculty are still pro-Lutheran-recruitment, at least in my sense of it. I mean, what faculty member is going to say we shouldn't try to recruit a viable source of interested students???? So I don't know why the Admin and Admissions staff didn't focus on it. Maybe it wasn't a neglect of Lutherans per se, but just a neglect of all various types of sub-groups. There was just a general complacency across the board in the 2010s and early 2020s that Valpo was self-evidently good and awesome and popular, and a lot of administrative patting-ourselves-on-the-back about Valpo Excellence as if it were inevitably apparent to all. Or maybe they did drop the ball with Lutherans in a special way? Perhaps they were too hasty to take the Lutheran demographic decline projections as a roadmap and prematurely stopped trying to get them even though there still do remain Lutheran high schoolers out there. (In general, I'm always suspicious of the way that business-y administrators use metrics to inform their decisions in self-fulfilling prophecy kinds of ways; so the cynical part of me would not at all be surprised if they hired some corporate higher ed consultant with a BA in Marketing Communications who showed them graphs and told them it wasn't worth trying to recruit Lutherans, and now here we are with no Lutherans. But that's speculative.) Honestly, I'm really not sure why Valpo hasn't tried or succeeded at recruiting Lutheran students, and it may well have been simply a general neglect and malaise/self-contentment, and not a particularly anti-Lutheran neglect.
So many dopey, dunderheaded decisions in higher ed have been driven by expensive consultants who don't understand the enterprise and come with pre-fabbed, one-size-can-be-adjusted-for-all "solutions." I dearly hope that VU has not relied on these folks.
The Lutheran student recruitment thing is mystifying in any event. It's recruiting 101 to grab as much of the low-hanging fruit as you can. (Sorry to be using consultant-speak....low-hanging fruit...yikes).
President Padilla is making good on his promise to me about reaching out to Concordia Lutheran High School. Surprisingly they are also reaching out to the seminary here in Fort Wayne. About three weeks ago the new holder of the Phyllis and Richard Duesenberg Chair in Lutheran Music and director of the Bach Institute, Marin Jacobson, visited me on the CTSFW campus and I introduced her to our Kantor and other VU Alums on staff. She also met with other LCMS music people in the area. She was well received and is making plans to do some things here in the Spring.
This is a very appropriate and idea-filled discussion theme. But we are still chatting amongst the choir, aren't we.
I would urge all who have contributed to this forum discussion to take it up a notch and independently communicate your thoughts and suggestions to the person at the university with the most to benefit from your thoughts: Jill Schur, VP, Enrollment & Marketing (Jill.Schur@valpo.edu).
Jill is very approachable and, I might add, very responsive. Both 72 and I have had discussions with her and have learned a great deal about the direction she is pursuing. But she needs help, and hearing from involved alums can bring pressure to bear that she can use to convince her boss to funnel more funding and staff her way to have an immediate impact on the next incoming class and beyond.
QuoteSo, VU has ceded this territory to others and now wants it back. This might work, but I would not bet on it. While we were sleeping the Concordias - and others - have established relationships with these high schools that will be hard to dislodge
Concordias and Valpo are two very different types of schools, despite both being Lutheran. I'm not sure they're competing for the same students. Valpo has programs and opportunities that just aren't available at Concordias.
Valpo needs to go after Lutheran high school students who would otherwise go to other private schools or smaller state schools.
I totally agree that Valpo and the Concordias have vastly different programs and opportunities. Education at the Concordias is not cheap by a long shot. I am more concerned that the Valpo name is not being brought to the forefront in the FW and surrounding regions. For years on a regular basis we see end of the year pictures and articles on area wide students, listing valedictorians and salutatorians and the college they were planning on attending. We annually saw a handful of students listing VU. Thís past year I believe there was only one student listed and that one was not from Fort Wayne,
Just like Coach Powell emphasizes getting players from the "area", ihe University should place more emphasis on recruiting it's immediate surrounding market, at least getting our name out in the public domain as often as possible.
I can't imagine a better ambassador than Roger Powell in terms of reaching dozens of constituencies.
OK, so it isn't directly about VU enrollment, yet elsewhere on this topic we have discussed the situation at Bradley University. To my knowledge, this hasn't been posted as yet - it shows how Bradly is cutting 15 majors in response to low enrollment and a $13M budget deficit. The announcement is as of December 11, 2023.
https://www.centralillinoisproud.com/news/local-news/the-latest-on-degree-programs-being-cut-at-bradley-university/ (https://www.centralillinoisproud.com/news/local-news/the-latest-on-degree-programs-being-cut-at-bradley-university/)
Quote from: valpo95 on January 05, 2024, 01:03:27 PM
OK, so it isn't directly about VU enrollment, yet elsewhere on this topic we have discussed the situation at Bradley University. To my knowledge, this hasn't been posted as yet - it shows how Bradly is cutting 15 majors in response to low enrollment and a $13M budget deficit. The announcement is as of December 11, 2023.
https://www.centralillinoisproud.com/news/local-news/the-latest-on-degree-programs-being-cut-at-bradley-university/ (https://www.centralillinoisproud.com/news/local-news/the-latest-on-degree-programs-being-cut-at-bradley-university/)
Gotta love the corporatized language: "'These changes are designed to help build a stronger, more agile Bradley, focused on the needs of today's students and the world the university is preparing them for,' the news release said."
I get why they're doing it, but this Orwellian language is bonkers. Program and job cuts will help us "build," leading to us being "stronger" and "more agile." What the heck does that even mean in the context of cuts????
Quote from: David81 on January 06, 2024, 01:48:38 AM
I get why they're doing it, but this Orwellian language is bonkers. Program and job cuts will help us "build," leading to us being "stronger" and "more agile." What the heck does that even mean in the context of cuts????
Program and job cuts (cost reduction initiatives) will help us "build (survive)," leading to us being "stronger" (less paralyzed) and "more agile (less encumbered)."
Typical corporate phraseology spun up in the public relations department.
Most corporations use this power language to buff a turd situation. I have seen this throughout my career.
I know that getting tenure at the academic level is very important/feels more permanent for staff, and it has its pros and cons to a university, regardless of your personal viewpoints. However, that locks in costs for a school that you wouldn't ordinarily have in the business world. It wasn't a big deal when college was the expected path for a large portion of the younger generation, but when those numbers changed, universities are going to need to be more nimble moving forward. As much as we can tease and laugh at the verbiage utilized, Bradley's PR group is very correct, in that with the yearly business and societal changes, schools are going to need to adapt much quicker than they have historically. AI and what it means for a lot of professions, in particular, which leads to the degrees that you should and should not be offering.
Part of "being nimble" for universities is to replace tenured faculty who retire (or depart for other reasons) with faculty who are on one, two or three year contracts (which the university can choose or decline to renew). These positions are typically referred to as professors of practice or clinical faculty and usually are filled by people with Masters degrees who also have a some (or a lot of) professional experience. Individual colleges in universities cannot do this to the nth degree, as accreditation requirements include a certain percentage of courses being taught by tenured/tenure track faculty. I wish this was not so necessary (though some professors of practice can bring tremendous and unique value), but the reality is that a business can't have excessive fixed costs (which is what tenured faculty are) when enrollment might not create the necessary level of revenue.
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 07, 2024, 09:15:20 PM
Part of "being nimble" for universities is to replace tenured faculty who retire (or depart for other reasons) with faculty who are on one, two or three year contracts (which the university can choose or decline to renew). These positions are typically referred to as professors of practice or clinical faculty and usually are filled by people with Masters degrees who also have a some (or a lot of) professional experience. Individual colleges in universities cannot do this to the nth degree, as accreditation requirements include a certain percentage of courses being taught by tenured/tenure track faculty. I wish this was not so necessary (though some professors of practice can bring tremendous and unique value), but the reality is that a business can't have excessive fixed costs (which is what tenured faculty are) when enrollment might not create the necessary level of revenue.
Exactly, this was my main point. I don't know the % requirement for accreditation, and I get the difference in potential quality in tenured versus professors of practice, but having a large amount of tenured faculty is not going to be the way to go for smaller universities. I have no idea how many tenured staff Valpo traditionally carries, but it wouldn't surprise me if smaller universities take a hard look at these fixed costs. I'm trying my best to put aside my bias against union environments and how it can make firing someone nearly impossible, so this is simply my take in a school trying to become more nimble as enrollment declines :).
I don't know the percent requirement for accreditation, but it varies by college (and sometimes even major). While universities are accredited, the far more important accreditations are by college with unique boards that are specific to each discipline (i.e., nursing, business, engineering, etc.) - and that is where the "percent of classes taught by tenured faculty comes into play." My other comment is that this 'winnowing' of tenured faculty has started and is being done to some degree at most universities that are not state flagship universities.
Some might say, "why worry about accreditation?" The answer is that most companies only recruit and hire graduates from programs that are accredited at the highest level (e.g., business and engineering) or only hire people from the most highly accredited programs for the better positions in the field (e.g., nursing). Accreditation certifies that experts are teaching classes and that the programs have sufficient depth and rigor.
There is also a wide range of non-tenure track faculty (NTTs). On one end, you have people with PhDs who don't want to do research and people who have developed tremendous practical expertise. I know some who left industry that use their expertise, experience and connections to start new programs. They bring tremendous value and connection to the university. On the other end, there are people who just come in and teach classes. Universities are much better when they are hiring NTTs who bring value beyond just filling teaching slots.
Here is a different issue on future revenue, though not related to tenure. Small universities, for funding reasons seem to be reaching badly to add degrees and niche programs (i.e. sports management). But a lot of market-driven service careers don't need the 4-year residential degree.
By example, my daughter's friend at a flagship university majored in hospitality management. She says that the business course substance need 1-2 years max. She thinks she is wasting her parents money in the other courses. God help those kids who borrow to get it. But, the flagship brand does bring networks and opens doors in a sales skills position. But without the reach of a wide-reaching flagship brand, I don't see a Bradley or Valpo grad trading broadly on their brand.
One thing that I wonder about is how Colleges have moved into a situation where now, not only do people what highly specific majors focused on career based areas but colleges themselves are meant to be little self-sustaining eco-systems.
It used to be that majors mattered less than just being educated: Knowing how to read, write, think, be exposed to new ideas and personal growth. Some areas obviously needed to be more skills focused than others but the idea that there needs to be highly specific curriculum in all these areas is probably a stretch. To be honest I think Business is probably the biggest offender in this as I'd imagine that class inflation that occurs to create a major curriculum does mean a lot of classes aren't really "useful" that said, i don't think the answer would be to just say change some majors to two years. I would love to see an embrace of a study what you want and you'll obtain the skills needed. My guess is there are more people in business with a random liberal arts degree than with just straight business degree and that's because the basis needs are the basic things I mentioned before that most majors as well as working with others would give you. The other issues is the inflation in what students expect/need/want on campus: so many community sponsored events, all their services right on campus, activities and entertainment. Things that students used to provide for themselves. I get times change and I don't think you can put that much of the genie back in the bottle but I do think the expectations of what a college should do for a student are both too wide in some areas and too narrow in others.
I don't think that I paid attention to such a thing when I was at Valpo, but does Valpo also entertain Professors from other schools that are doing a 'residency' at Valpo? I don't remember if he referred to it as a residency, but when I was doing my MBA at TCU 15-16 years back, one of my Economics Professors had mentioned that he was staff at some Ivy League school, but was essentially on loan to TCU for a few semesters.
Quote from: valpotx on January 08, 2024, 02:12:54 PM
I don't think that I paid attention to such a thing when I was at Valpo, but does Valpo also entertain Professors from other schools that are doing a 'residency' at Valpo? I don't remember if he referred to it as a residency, but when I was doing my MBA at TCU 15-16 years back, one of my Economics Professors had mentioned that he was staff at some Ivy League school, but was essentially on loan to TCU for a few semesters.
I presume this would mean "visiting" to include "residency" though the professors on our site would certainly better answer your question.
Here are a couple I found who are "visiting":
https://www.valpo.edu/college-of-business/mahdi-bohloul-ph-d/
https://www.valpo.edu/political-science/paul-olander/
https://www.valpo.edu/theology/about/faculty/marty-tomszak/
Most, if not all, universities have visiting professors - but it is never more than a few at any given time.
Pritzker urges Abbott to stop busing migrants to Chicago due to storm: 'I plead with you for mercy'
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pritzker-urges-abbott-stop-busing-migrants-chicago-due-storm-i-plead-with-you-for-mercy
Keep those future Valpo students coming.
I'm sure that everyone has their personal opinion on my state's undocumented worker/illegal immigrant (whichever word you choose to use) busing to other states, but if the Federal government is responsible for protecting our borders, and Texas bears the brunt of the costs in the government failing to do so, just because we are on the border, I've always felt it very fair that all other states need to support such folks equally. Is it inhumane to bus folks to random spots that they might not want to go? Yes. Should all 50 states share the costs and crisis equally, versus just the border states? Absolutely.
Quote from: valpotx on January 14, 2024, 03:32:51 AM
I'm sure that everyone has their personal opinion on my state's undocumented worker/illegal immigrant (whichever word you choose to use) busing to other states, but if the Federal government is responsible for protecting our borders, and Texas bears the brunt of the costs in the government failing to do so, just because we are on the border, I've always felt it very fair that all other states need to support such folks equally. Is it inhumane to bus folks to random spots that they might not want to go? Yes. Should all 50 states share the costs and crisis equally, versus just the border states? Absolutely.
I am not sure how this specifically relates to enrollment numbers, but I agree with most of your commentary. However, I would disagree with the conclusion that "all 50 states should share the costs equally," which according to a report this week on CNN has reached into billions of dollars. The last I looked, 11 states and the District of Columbia have formally declared themselves to have "sanctuary status":
California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Vermont. Hold them to their word.
these sanctuary cities really need to walk the walk.
what does this have to do with enrollment numbers?
I think it began as a reference (wink) to hispanic immigrants from south of the border who could inflate VU's enrollment numbers.
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 14, 2024, 09:49:03 PM
I think it began as a reference (wink) to hispanic immigrants from south of the border who could inflate VU's enrollment numbers.
Correct, the comment above mine. I knew that it was off topic, but had to reply to that link.
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 14, 2024, 09:49:03 PM
I think it began as a reference (wink) to hispanic immigrants from south of the border who could inflate VU's enrollment numbers.
My comment was tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely. For better or worse, Metropolitan Chicago is being flooded (overwhelmed according to the Illinois Governor) with illegal Hispanic immigrants from the southern border.
As confirmed in a recent article, Valpo is fully committed to increasing its Hispanic student population over time as part of its institutional growth strategy:
VALPARAISO UNIVERSITY AND PRESIDENT JOSÉ PADILLA SUPPORT HISPANIC AND LATINX STUDENTS
October 18, 2023
"The University's efforts have shown positive results as the number of new Hispanic undergraduate students has increased by 33% since 2022, with Hispanic students now comprising 11.2% of the overall enrollment. Through this level of intentionality, Valpo will support all students. "We have taken great strides in our efforts to be a more inclusive university through partnerships across the Region, state of Indiana, and nationally," President Padilla said.
Chicago is a mess.
Wow. The press release uses the term "Latinx".
I had the impression that the laugh out loud reaction to the term was even embarrassing to liberals by now who are major proponents. It's being forced into the lexicon of the country without a lot of success. How about just saying latinas and latinos? Or is there a gender I am skipping?
Now I am seeing the President of my alma mater use it. One more concession to silliness in the identity olympics.
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 18, 2024, 03:54:28 PM
Wow. The press release uses the term "Latinx".
I had the impression that the laugh out loud reaction to the term was even embarrassing to liberals by now who are major proponents. It's being forced into the lexicon of the country without a lot of success. How about just saying latinas and latinos? Or is there a gender I am skipping?
Now I am seeing the President of my alma mater use it. One more concession to silliness in the identity olympics.
I lectured about something today in my Intro to Media course that I feel is apropos to this point. In 1968, Lyndon Johnson appointed the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence. That commission partially dealt with media and television. What they found was that desensitization was one effect of long-term exposure to mass-media portrayals of violence. That we were so beaten down by the images that we saw on television that we became immune to them. As Aaron Sorkin has written in multiple shows, "wars are being broadcast with a logo and theme music."
Taking the opposite viewpoint of this, we're all so sensitive now. There are large groups that are sensitive to how they are referred to and there are large groups that are sensitive that they have to refer to people differently. I've always kind of shrugged my shoulders at it all. I don't understand why Latinos or Latinas want to be referred to as Latinx, but if that's their preference, fine, it doesn't cost me anything to change a letter. Are we to the point now that people are too sensitive about what they're called AND people are too sensitive about having to call people something else?
Just food for thought. I don't have the answers. I barely know the questions.
Quote from: Pgmado on January 18, 2024, 04:24:07 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 18, 2024, 03:54:28 PM
Wow. The press release uses the term "Latinx".
I had the impression that the laugh out loud reaction to the term was even embarrassing to liberals by now who are major proponents. It's being forced into the lexicon of the country without a lot of success. How about just saying latinas and latinos? Or is there a gender I am skipping?
Now I am seeing the President of my alma mater use it. One more concession to silliness in the identity olympics.
I lectured about something today in my Intro to Media course that I feel is apropos to this point. In 1968, Lyndon Johnson appointed the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence. That commission partially dealt with media and television. What they found was that desensitization was one effect of long-term exposure to mass-media portrayals of violence. That we were so beaten down by the images that we saw on television that we became immune to them. As Aaron Sorkin has written in multiple shows, "wars are being broadcast with a logo and theme music."
Taking the opposite viewpoint of this, we're all so sensitive now. There are large groups that are sensitive to how they are referred to and there are large groups that are sensitive that they have to refer to people differently. I've always kind of shrugged my shoulders at it all. I don't understand why Latinos or Latinas want to be referred to as Latinx, but if that's their preference, fine, it doesn't cost me anything to change a letter. Are we to the point now that people are too sensitive about what they're called AND people are too sensitive about having to call people something else?
Just food for thought. I don't have the answers. I barely know the questions.
Simple. From
Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (1989):
Just "be excellent to each other."
Yeah, I get the Pgmado point. but usually higher education leads the way in contriving words and identities. This quote below comes from a Boston University periodical "BUtoday" that seems a bit more self-aware than most.
If Hispanics Hate the Term "Latinx," Why Is It Still Used? CAS' Maia Gil'Adí says that polling agencies have given the word an unfair reputation ---
Now comes the rise of the divisive—but gender-neutral—"Latinx," touted by progressives for its supposed modern hipness, yet somewhat reviled by the people it represents.
Quote from: Pgmado on January 18, 2024, 04:24:07 PM
I don't understand why Latinos or Latinas want to be referred to as Latinx, but if that's their preference, fine, it doesn't cost me anything to change a letter. Are we to the point now that people are too sensitive about what they're called AND people are too sensitive about having to call people something else?
I have been in academic forums and meetings where discussion occurred about use of "Latinx" in university messages. I have objected because those group members strongly reject the term themselves. It is not "their preference." ABC News reported as recently as 2023: "Only 23% of U.S. adults who self-identify as Hispanic or Latino had heard of the term Latinx, according to a 2020 Pew Research Center poll. Just 3% use it to identify themselves, the poll found." However, the academics and university administrators in meetings with me, believing they knew better what was good for the group in question, insisted upon "Latinx."
Further from ABC News: "
In December 2021, the League of United Latin American Citizens, the oldest Hispanic and Latino civil rights organization in the U.S., and Congressman Ruben Gallego, D-Ariz., stated they would no longer use the term 'Latinx' because it was offensive to some and failed to prove it had a wide acceptance."
"'When Latino politicos use the term it is largely to appease white rich progressives who think that is the term we use,' Gallego tweeted."
we need to identify ourselves as cool or a jerk. In government, we see a huge majority of the second.
Hopefully, the barrage of stupidity in terms of ubiquitous DEI, virtue signaling, and contradictory DEI treatment of Asians and Jews will all implode on higher education soon as it comes home to roost. The U. of Michigan had over DEI employees last year with 2/3 earning over $100,000.
The common sense public is catching on fast this year to this idiocy in the manner as the progressive idiocy of self identification of gender. Which hat will I wear today in terms of my restroom choice? Woe to the democrats outside the rich clueless liberal areas.
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 19, 2024, 11:30:40 AM
Hopefully, the barrage of stupidity in terms of ubiquitous DEI, virtue signaling, and contradictory DEI treatment of Asians and Jews will all implode on higher education soon as it comes home to roost. The U. of Michigan had over DEI employees last year with 2/3 earning over $100,000.
The common sense public is catching on fast this year to this idiocy in the manner as the progressive idiocy of self identification of gender. Which hat will I wear today in terms of my restroom choice? Woe to the democrats outside the rich clueless liberal areas.
moe, give it a rest, your right wing agenda is all over your posts. How about sticking to the subject matter?
It only became relevant when Valpo sent out a news release with the word, Latinx. Clearly the hispanic community hates it with 3% in favor by one published source. So why would Valpo proclaim success using that word?
But yeah, I can let up on the broader points.
Alas, in academe, it's all too often the noisy, raging extremists on both ends who are dominating these debates and painting with very broad brushes. That includes folks on the far left who are deeply consumed over labels and tags like Latinx and personal pronouns. (Some of them regard me, an old fashioned pro civil rights liberal, as being insufficiently progressive.)
These issues of difference and diversity are really treacherous right now. And, as I tell my students when I teach my Employment Discrimination Law course, it's even more difficult when you're not sure if the term you use to describe a certain group is going to result in a loud, politically correct rebuke, or if someone is going to ridicule you and tag you as woke merely for acknowledging that bias exists. Walking on eggshells is no fun, and a lot of thoughtful people are being dismissed by knee-jerk critics who lack the capacity for nuance and complexity.
As I've said before, VU may have some appeal to applicants who seek to explore that nuance and complexity and to challenge their own points of view, among other things. But as I've also said before, it needs better messaging about itself to attract those kinds of thoughtful students.
David81 - As always, you offer very insightful thoughts.
While I agree with your comments, I will add that I also think that part of this is out of self-interest. Administrators want to advance to more senior roles at their current or other universities and they know that some decision-makers associated with potential advancement are in the group that is excessively consumed with terminology that, in the end, has little or nothing to do with actual success. The same goes for academics looking for greater prestige (via publication or other scholarly achievements). Academics who try to publish work in important areas like student retention, organizational dynamics, or minority leadership can get strong pushback (from editors and reviewers) if the findings or terminology are not exactly consistent with these peoples' worldview (despite the findings probably being different than the worldview of those on the other side of the spectrum). Scholarly research should be about seeking the truth and new understandings, not confirming anyone's specific worldview.
Some general updates with good news and reasons for optimism as we move under the 40 days until March 1 mark. Although it is still too early to come to a conclusion about enrollment for fall semester and anything can happen, the current numbers are very encouraging across the board. Despite the fact that the process of application has been delayed for most individuals since changes at the national level made FAFSA availability happen almost three months later this year (which I believe slowed football recruitment a bit), Valpo's overall numbers appear to be ahead of those at this time the past few years.
Additionally, Indiana instituted a new law this year requiring the state's seniors to file FAFSA papers unless waived by parents. The state is aiming for a 25% uptick this year over last year. This will likely result in an increase of Indiana students eligible for the college pool, the population from which VU draws many applicants. Finally, I am told the enrollment for the nursing program is extraordinarily healthy, partially because of the good publicity from the recent announcement of Valparaiso University and the University of Chicago Medicine launching a new training program together.
Quote from: valpopal on January 22, 2024, 09:32:43 AM
Some general updates with good news and reasons for optimism as we move under the 40 days until March 1 mark. Although it is still too early to come to a conclusion about enrollment for fall semester and anything can happen, the current numbers are very encouraging across the board. Despite the fact that the process of application has been delayed for most individuals since changes at the national level made FAFSA availability happen almost three months later this year (which I believe slowed football recruitment a bit), Valpo's overall numbers appear to be ahead of those at this time the past few years.
Additionally, Indiana instituted a new law this year requiring the state's seniors to file FAFSA papers unless waived by parents. The state is aiming for a 25% uptick this year over last year. This will likely result in an increase of Indiana students eligible for the college pool, the population from which VU draws many applicants. Finally, I am told the enrollment for the nursing program is extraordinarily healthy, partially because of the good publicity from the recent announcement of Valparaiso University and the University of Chicago Medicine launching a new training program together.
While I am hopeful that you are correct, I will again state that there are three measures that are far more meaningful than any other measures: on-campus visits, acceptances, and deposits. If those measures are up (year-over-year or versus goal), then things look promising. If it is something like applications, that is far less indicative.
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 23, 2024, 11:39:17 AM
Quote from: valpopal on January 22, 2024, 09:32:43 AM
Some general updates with good news and reasons for optimism as we move under the 40 days until March 1 mark. Although it is still too early to come to a conclusion about enrollment for fall semester and anything can happen, the current numbers are very encouraging across the board. Despite the fact that the process of application has been delayed for most individuals since changes at the national level made FAFSA availability happen almost three months later this year (which I believe slowed football recruitment a bit), Valpo's overall numbers appear to be ahead of those at this time the past few years.
Additionally, Indiana instituted a new law this year requiring the state's seniors to file FAFSA papers unless waived by parents. The state is aiming for a 25% uptick this year over last year. This will likely result in an increase of Indiana students eligible for the college pool, the population from which VU draws many applicants. Finally, I am told the enrollment for the nursing program is extraordinarily healthy, partially because of the good publicity from the recent announcement of Valparaiso University and the University of Chicago Medicine launching a new training program together.
While I am hopeful that you are correct, I will again state that there are three measures that are far more meaningful than any other measures: on-campus visits, acceptances, and deposits. If those measures are up (year-over-year or versus goal), then things look promising. If it is something like applications, that is far less indicative.
Yes, you say this every time, and on each occasion I assure you I would not post anything without precise knowledge of all the measures you cite.
Valpopal - You are absolutely correct for pointing out that I have made that comment multiple times. I have just seen too many cases of reporting "the indicators look really good", followed months later with missed goals and expectations.
I am happy to announce that VU is hitting Concordia Lutheran High School a lot harder than they have in the past. I will give the majority of the credit to Marin Jacobson, the new Director of the Bach Institute and also the Phyllis and Richard Duesenberg Chair in Lutheran Music. I will let her describe what she is doing here in Fort Wayne:
"I, too, am very excited to bring VU musicians to St. Paul's in March. Last month, I met the music teachers at CLHS (Jennifer Porath and Kathryn Peperkorn) to discuss their students' participation; the advanced choir will be singing with the VU Chorale at St. Paul's on Friday, March 8 at 7:00 PM. The concert will be free and open to the public.
As the planning continues, I am quite excited to bring many Lutherans together for this worshipful event. The musicians will be sharing anthems, leading everyone in singing hymns, and performing a Bach cantata. The theme is: Soli Deo Gloria: a celebration of Lutheran song, and the 'solas' are present through the program. It will be an evening to remember, and our Lord will be lifted high!"
Marin has also been to the Seminary Campus talking to our Kantor and some of the staff. She was a great ambassador and well received by a pretty tough (for the most part a not pro VU) crowd.
She has done more in Fort Wayne in the last 4 months than was done during the entire Heckler Presidency.
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 21, 2024, 11:17:13 AM
David81 - As always, you offer very insightful thoughts.
While I agree with your comments, I will add that I also think that part of this is out of self-interest. Administrators want to advance to more senior roles at their current or other universities and they know that some decision-makers associated with potential advancement are in the group that is excessively consumed with terminology that, in the end, has little or nothing to do with actual success. The same goes for academics looking for greater prestige (via publication or other scholarly achievements). Academics who try to publish work in important areas like student retention, organizational dynamics, or minority leadership can get strong pushback (from editors and reviewers) if the findings or terminology are not exactly consistent with these peoples' worldview (despite the findings probably being different than the worldview of those on the other side of the spectrum). Scholarly research should be about seeking the truth and new understandings, not confirming anyone's specific worldview.
vu84v2, sorry I'm returning to this thread belatedly, but I'm not sure what you're suggesting is my self-interest here.
If wanting conversations and policy discussions about difference and diversity to return to a saner place, then I guess that's self-interest. My point above went to the difficulty of having these conversations when fear over using the wrong terminology causes folks to not participate. It has nothing to do with scholarship, unless someone's pen is so tongue-twisted over terminology that they cannot even address these issues on paper. Of course, if someone is intentionally using a "wrong" or offensive term just to push buttons, then I'm not feeling bad for them if their article gets rejected because of it.
I posted on the planned cuts at Bradley University that were announced in December. Here is another recent look at the financial situation.
https://www.wcbu.org/local-news/2024-02-12/we-had-a-bad-year-how-a-covenant-violation-led-bradley-university-to-make-13-million-in-cuts (https://www.wcbu.org/local-news/2024-02-12/we-had-a-bad-year-how-a-covenant-violation-led-bradley-university-to-make-13-million-in-cuts)
There are quite a few parallels with the situation facing Bradley and the situation facing VU (similar in size, student body, endowment, location, etc.) though to my knowledge, VU has not breached its debt covenants.
A few quotes:
"Bradley University will pay a higher interest rate and need to have more money on hand to cover debt after violating the bond covenants on some $17.1 million worth of borrowing last year."
(S&P Ratings Analyst) "Radhakrishnan said Bradley's overall balance sheet remained solid even through fiscal year 2023. The university has a $350 million endowment and more than $700 million in assets. But she said operating performance has been an offsetting factor for the past several years."
S&P Global's 2024 outlook for higher education is bifurcated, or mixed. Selective, higher-rated universities have a positive outlook, while smaller regional schools are expected to continue facing financial and enrollment challenges.
"Bradley in particular falls at sort of that lower end of the rating curve where we are seeing more operating pressures," said Jessica Wood, managing director for education at S&P Global Ratings.
valpo95 - Thank you for posting this.
Not meeting debt covenants is a huge issue and, like you, I have never seen that this has happened at Valpo. Beyond having to pay higher interest rates and the reputation damage, you can also surmise that the debt holder will also demand greater visibility into Bradley's financials and factors that affect their financial performance. Universities (like many other types of private organizations) hate such transparency, but Bradley has no choice (since the debt holder could have called in the $17M immediately).
Another interesting thing from the article is that their CFO is interim and is leaving at the end of the month (and there is no announcement of a new CFO). That definitely signals turmoil.
Indeed that's serious.
The article cites a healthy "balance sheet" of assets at Bradley. Valpo has the same situation. Like Bradley, VU's property and endowment fund are valuable. But those assets are not liquid for paying the mortgage.
A "house poor" homeowner can sell his house. A university can't find anyone to buy its mortgaged buildings. Bradley may not have as much building debt, but it obviously carries a lot.
In reference to FWalum's earlier comments regarding Valpo recruiting in Fort Wayne, specifically at Concordia Lutheran High , yes it is about time. However, there is a greater effort needed other than in the music area. Not only that, but a long-overdue plan is needed for the entire area of Ft. Wayne and the tri-state area. Music is a very small part of increasing VU's enrollment from the FW area.
Valpo's music program, as good as it is, will not make or break Valpo's declining enrollment in the area.
Incompetency in the federal government, specifically the Department of Education, is harming recruiting for the upcoming year, especially by Valparaiso and other tuition-driven private universities. The FAFSA financial aid form, usually available to students by October 1, was postponed until December 31. Then, delay of the release was extended again until sometime in March because of glitches or errors in its content and process. As a result, the university cannot confirm financial aid for students, who are required to complete the federal form first. Therefore, applicants are in a limbo state of confusion and uncertainty about whether or not they will be able to afford a private school education, and it is impossible for many of them to make deposits. Consequently, some prospective students likely will simply play it safe and opt for less expensive state schools. A number of universities are now stretching their decision deadline date from March 1 to May 1 or June 1. Apparently, a couple of private universities have already completely eliminated the commitment deadline. This is not good for enrollment numbers at places like Valparaiso University.
Not sure where to put this but The University of New Hampshire closed its Art Museum as part of cost cutting measures.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/2024/01/23/univefrsity-of-new-hampshire-museum-of-art-closes/72313414007/
Quote from: vu72 on February 14, 2024, 10:43:57 AM
Not sure where to put this but The University of New Hampshire closed its Art Museum as part of cost cutting measures.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/2024/01/23/univefrsity-of-new-hampshire-museum-of-art-closes/72313414007/ (https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/2024/01/23/univefrsity-of-new-hampshire-museum-of-art-closes/72313414007/)
This situation seems a bit muddled. The good news is that no artworks will be sold, and they will continue to be exhibited elsewhere on campus. Also, the museum space will not be re-purposed but will remain for art-related activities. It seems the building needed a new HVAC system to satisfy accreditation requirements for safely storing paintings, and construction was about to begin, but the university wanted to avoid that cost. The only change appears to be the museum designation and perhaps a discontinuation of associated expenses, including some staff. Unfortunately, this removes internship opportunities and work-study positions for students, as well. However, I would think displaying valuable artworks outside the centralized security of a museum building would create greater insurance costs and other overhead expenses.
Quote from: valpopal on February 14, 2024, 09:20:57 AM
Incompetency in the federal government, specifically the Department of Education, is harming recruiting for the upcoming year, especially by Valparaiso and other tuition-driven private universities. The FAFSA financial aid form, usually available to students by October 1, was postponed until December 31. Then, delay of the release was extended again until sometime in March because of glitches or errors in its content and process. As a result, the university cannot confirm financial aid for students, who are required to complete the federal form first. Therefore, applicants are in a limbo state of confusion and uncertainty about whether or not they will be able to afford a private school education, and it is impossible for many of them to make deposits. Consequently, some prospective students likely will simply play it safe and opt for less expensive state schools. A number of universities are now stretching their decision deadline date from March 1 to May 1 or June 1. Apparently, a couple of private universities have already completely eliminated the commitment deadline. This is not good for enrollment numbers at places like Valparaiso University.
Thanks for posting this. Our decision deadline date for recent years has been May 1 and gets "soft stretched" to June 1 (the soft stretch period tends to offset those who change their mind after making the deposit). The FAFSA incompetency definitely hurts the private universities.
This is from a news report in Milwaukee tonight regarding the Concordia system
----------------------
The university sent an email to students this week, alerting them of a recent financial health check that found the university was spending more money than it was taking in.
Students were told cuts would be coming and the Ann Arbor campus must be reimagined by next fall, with significant reduction in operations and smaller cutbacks at the Mequon campus.
Obviously, Valpo is not alone as many universities are experiencing enrollment declines. This fact still doesn't make the very soon to be announced cuts and consolidations any better. Brace yourself.