The Valparaiso Beacons Fan Zone Forum

https://twitter.com/JasonBelzer/status/900754878548586496

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbelzer/2017/08/24/horizon-league-sues-valapariso-university-and-missouri-valley-conference-over-realignment/#198c407a277a

"The lawsuit, filed on June 27 in Evansville, IN, claims that Valparaiso University breached its contract with the Horizon League when it failed to provide one-year notice of its intent to leave the conference, and thus that the university has incurred $500,000 in agreed upon liquidated damages. It further claims that the Missouri Valley Conference (MVC), Valpo's new home, induced (and tortuously interfered with) the school to breach that contract and move conferences."

..........

I honestly don't know what to think. If anyone is a lawyer I'd like to hear their opinion on this whole thing.

Non-Lawyer here.  Nonetheless it seems to me that there was a breech and that the parties agreed to liquidating damages ($500,000).  I don't really see how Valpo would get out of this fee.

Anyone see the irony in Heckler proposing increasing the exit fee to $500,000 in 2012, and then five years later he claims Valparaiso shouldn't be subject to that fee since it wasn't in place when Valpo entered the league in 2006?

This is my thoughts on the whole thing after asking a few different peoples opinions who are attorneys.

Its likely that Valpo always intended on paying some amount of a exit-fee but there may be some legal argument that Valpo shouldn't have to pay a full $500,000 but the real goal may be just settle and reduce the payment. Its more of a business/cost savings move possibly. None of us have seen the bylaws, amendments or the paperwork because they aren't public record so its hard for us to have a fully informed opinion on this.

It also seems that lawsuits aren't uncommon in this recent era of conference realignment and typically the school & the conference just settle at some number to avoid the trial fees, etc. Happened with Maryland/TCU/Rutgers, etc. all went through this when they switched conferences. We'll just have to see how this all shakes out.

Quote from: VU2014 on August 24, 2017, 01:51:26 PM
This is my thoughts on the whole thing after asking a few different peoples opinions who are attorneys.

Its likely that Valpo always intended on paying some amount of a exit-fee but there may be some legal argument that Valpo shouldn't have to pay a full $500,000 but the real goal may be just settle and reduce the payment. Its more of a business/cost savings move possibly. None of us have seen the bylaws, amendments or the paperwork because they aren't public record so its hard for us to have a fully informed opinion on this.

It also seems that lawsuits aren't uncommon in this recent era of conference realignment and typically the school & the conference just settle at some number to avoid the trial fees, etc. Happened with Maryland/TCU/Rutgers, etc. all went through this when they switched conferences. We'll just have to see how this all shakes out.

This is really all it is - neither side is likely going to want to go to trial over this.  The number's not big enough for it to benefit either side that much.  Valpo will likely pay the majority of it since they have a lot more to lose in this case, especially given the legal precedence and that the league has included its attorney fees and legal costs in its suit.  It's also interesting that the league filed suit in Vanderburgh County in Evansville, but that's likely so if this does go to trial that they can get a favorable ruling.

Quote from: IrishDawg on August 24, 2017, 02:00:35 PMIt's also interesting that the league filed suit in Vanderburgh County in Evansville, but that's likely so if this does go to trial that they can get a favorable ruling.

Why would the Horizon League get a favorable ruling in Evansville? 

Quote from: zvillehaze on August 24, 2017, 02:30:29 PM

Quote from: IrishDawg on August 24, 2017, 02:00:35 PMIt's also interesting that the league filed suit in Vanderburgh County in Evansville, but that's likely so if this does go to trial that they can get a favorable ruling.

Why would the Horizon League get a favorable ruling in Evansville? 

My guess is the Horizon League attorney's tried to file the lawsuit with a judge they thought would be favorable to their case. Just a guess on my part.

One thing that hasn't been discussed yet is how petty the Horizon League looks that they are actually suing the Missouri Valley Conference for damages because they took us (Valpo) away from the Horizon league and have the nerve to ask for damages.

The Forbes article was horribly written and seemed to slant in towards Horizon League case. My guess is the Horizon League offices leaked the story or made it aware to the Forbes reporter.

https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/900801152647909377

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900793229825769473
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900793686409261056
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900794015217569792
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900794477572501506
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900794697626603520
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900795054876504065
https://twitter.com/KurtisArndt/status/900795413539823616
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900795352491667456
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900795872451153921
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/900802337735888897
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/900797170575691776
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/900801327659442179
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/900803256284303360

https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/900797488055111682

I'm a lawyer, but this is out of my wheelhouse.

Seems odd that venue is in Evansville.  However, it makes sense.  The suit says that venue is proper there since Evansville (a member of one of defendants) is located there.  So, venue under Indiana civil procedure is likely proper.  I would say the reason is simply to get away from Valpo.  They ask for a jury trial, so it would be dumb to have the suit in northwest Indiana where Valpo may have some simpathizers.  I looked up the law firm on the internet.  They market themselves as litigators, so they probably look for any tactical advantage regardless of the actual impact.

Most lawsuits settle in the neighborhood of 50 cents on the dollar (everyone is half right and half wrong), so expect Valpo and/or MVC to have to cough up $200-300K in order to settle.  That is, of course, if there are no other special circumstances, such as politics or NCAA tourney requirements require no open claims, etc.

That's my 2 cents, but probably not worth 2 cents.

Quote from: VU2014 on August 24, 2017, 03:03:16 PM
One thing that hasn't been discussed yet is how petty the Horizon League looks that they are actually suing the Missouri Valley Conference for damages because they took us (Valpo) away from the Horizon league and have the nerve to ask for damages.

The Forbes article was horribly written and seemed to slant in towards Horizon League case. My guess is the Horizon League offices leaked the story or made it aware to the Forbes reporter.

It's lawsuit 101, you sue all the parties involved and then pair it down from there.  Regardless if one was directly at fault (the MVC likely did want Valpo for this next year, so yes, in a sense they did "induce" Valpo to breach the 1 year notification clause) for the breach of contract, the Horizon League is trying to get maximum bucks, much like Valpo and the MVC would like to minimize their liability for Valpo leaving the league, which is why they weren't making any attempt to pay the Horizon League prior to the suit's filing.  As 4throwfan states too, they may have included them simply to get the venue away from Valparaiso.

I'm not trying to argue the validity of their claims (it's highly unlikely any of the schools were caused significant monetary harm given the timing of Valpo's exit and subsequent add in of IUPUI a month later), but most of the time as the filer, you're better off throwing stuff against a wall to see what sticks if it actually goes to trial.  Is it petty?  Yep.  But unfortunately that's the nature of litigation.  Sometimes common sense need not apply.

I don't read any slant in the article however.  Legal precedence being in the Horizon League's favor and Valpo's argument for why they shouldn't pay when at the very least the school probably voted in favor of the Bylaw amendment change, the author believes that Valpo will wind up paying the majority of the fee in a settlement to the league.  Should he have left that piece out of the article and just mentioned both sides of the legal claim?  Sure, but the author is an attorney, so it's not completely out of bounds in my opinion to offer up his legal opinion on the two sides and what he feels is going to happen.

I wonder if this article will become Exhibit A for the defense:

HL commissioner says conference prepared for Valpo depature

Jay Morrison  Staff Writer
7:21 p.m Tuesday, May 9, 2017  Sports

"This is relatively typical of the Division I environment at this point," he said. "There is membership movement. It's been pretty regular. And there's really not anything that happens any more that takes people by surprise. We have plans in place. We have proactive plans. We have transitional plans."


https://www.google.com/amp/www.mydaytondailynews.com/sports/commissioner-says-conference-prepared-for-valpo-depature/53zZ8pUjR8fStHwzCDhN6N/amp.html

Is the Summit League suing IUPUI and the Horizon League?

Quote from: vu84v2 on August 24, 2017, 04:27:51 PM
Is the Summit League suing IUPUI and the Horizon League?

Probably sending gift baskets

Knowing that Valpo throws nickels like manhole covers, my money is on Heckler in this situation. He had to have known in this situation about the buyout fee, and I am sure Valpo's lawyers looked at this before moving to the Valley.

That being said, is $500000 going to really kill Valpo with a $300M+ foundation? Seriously, is this big news?

Something tells me we don't know the whole story behind this yet. I forget who reported it but a few alumni pledged to cover the HL exit-fee. I'm not sure whats going on. Maybe Heckler is just being frugal or maybe there is actually something in the bylaws that is a "technicality" that they think gives them leeway to attempt to settle instead of paying the full $500k. I'm not a lawyer but I've taken 2 business law classes (still doesn't make me even remotely qualified to even have an opinion) but if I learned anything from those classes it taught me that the legal system and contracts sometimes aren't always black & white. Either way I'm not worried about this but I don't particular like our school's name & a lawsuit being brought up in the same sentence.

The times article mentions in 2006 valpo signed a contract for 5 years to be a member of the Horizon league. After the 5 years,  valpo would be renewed on a year to year basis. It also alleges the two sides were mandated to meet informally to resolve this issue before the filing of any lawsuits however the HL did not do this...

Quote from: Valpo89 on August 24, 2017, 01:40:11 PM
Anyone see the irony in Heckler proposing increasing the exit fee to $500,000 in 2012, and then five years later he claims Valparaiso shouldn't be subject to that fee since it wasn't in place when Valpo entered the league in 2006?

It's ironic that that someone who proposes an increase would get burned by it 5 years later. It's hypocritical that someone who proposes an increase would try to weasel out of it 5 years later.

I have to wonder if there's more to the story than this; otherwise, Valpo comes off looking less than honorable here.

Quote from: vu84v2 on August 24, 2017, 04:27:51 PM
Is the Summit League suing IUPUI and the Horizon League?

Not that I've read about.  Probably hinges on whether the Summit has an exit fee and if IUPUI paid it.

Tweet at Paul if you have any questions
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/900904921930883072

Strange that the HL didn't sue Butler or Loyola, but does sue Valpo.  Have to think this indicates that LeCrone is panicking and wants to do everything he can to keep more schools from defecting. 

Quote from: EddieCabot on August 24, 2017, 09:23:21 PM
Strange that the HL didn't sue Butler or Loyola, but does sue Valpo.  Have to think this indicates that LeCrone is panicking and wants to do everything he can to keep more schools from defecting. 

I think LeCrone and the HL went full on panic mode when they vote to invite IUPUI to the Conference

https://twitter.com/pronkville08/status/900767718604984321
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/900777796741599234
https://twitter.com/McCannSportsLaw/status/900910711936876544

Quote from: wh on August 24, 2017, 04:26:49 PM
I wonder if this article will become Exhibit A for the defense:

HL commissioner says conference prepared for Valpo depature

Jay Morrison  Staff Writer
7:21 p.m Tuesday, May 9, 2017  Sports

"This is relatively typical of the Division I environment at this point," he said. "There is membership movement. It's been pretty regular. And there's really not anything that happens any more that takes people by surprise. We have plans in place. We have proactive plans. We have transitional plans."


https://www.google.com/amp/www.mydaytondailynews.com/sports/commissioner-says-conference-prepared-for-valpo-depature/53zZ8pUjR8fStHwzCDhN6N/amp.html

That and the fact that they added IUPUI just a day or so after filing suit. So much for causing damage by forcing teams to adjust to a nine team schedule. Also did Butler and Loyola give one year's notice when they left? I don't think so but they probably paid their exit fees. VU would have gladly given more notice, but then the HL would have punished the baseball and softball teams. Valpo may come off looking a bit greedy here, but the HL comes off looking downright petty. Not an attractive quality for a conference with ambitious expansion plans. Wonder if   this makes IPFW WIU and RMU think twice about joining. LeCrone may lose the war in pursuit of this one battle.

Quote from: elephtheria47 on August 24, 2017, 08:25:02 PM
The times article mentions in 2006 valpo signed a contract for 5 years to be a member of the Horizon league. After the 5 years,  valpo would be renewed on a year to year basis. It also alleges the two sides were mandated to meet informally to resolve this issue before the filing of any lawsuits however the HL did not do this...

Let me preface all of this by saying that I am not a lawyer nor do I understand the legal system all that well. What you've written here is very  interesting and could throw the case out entirely, however I would be careful with the statement that the HL did not meet informally with Valpo. That's the key word and what could constitute an informal meeting is pretty broad I would think. Another key word is supersede. If Valpo was to be renewed on a year to year basis that constitutes a rolling option. The question is who controls the option? Valpo? The HL? Is it a mutual option? If it's Valpo's option or a mutual one the argument can be made that Valpo was within its right to decline but since the fee applies to member institutions which Valpo was at the time the announcement was made and would remain such until June 30, the argument can be made that Valpo's status as a member institution supersedes the option.The sticking point here is that all realignment decisions need to be made by that June 30 date to be considered valid for the next year but that doesn't really matter here.

I think the superseding argument is going to win out, and Valpo will have to pay.However in light of the precedent set by similar cases (not sure if  any of those were lawsuits like this however) and the subsequent actions and statements by HL commissioner LeCrone, I think a settlement will be reached that will see Valpo allowed to leave but having to pay, although maybe not the full amount. Not sure why the money is an issue I thought it was all settled cost and budget wise and most knew there would be an exit fee anyway. Both sides look bad but Valpo probably looks worse. I think they will settle but if this goes to the mat I think the HL will win.

Both sides look kind of stupid here too unless there's some language in the agreement and or evidence we're not privy to. Suing the MVC seems foolish because it's extremely likely that the MVC's main inducement to Valpo was being a better more attractive more stable conference  Doug Elgin even credits Valpo for luring them. However Evansville may have been chosen because it's 1. In Indiana and would have jurisdiction on those grounds and a former HL\current Valley city with a rumored HL target (USI) and a fanbase that likely has fonder feelings for the HL where they were a power than the Valley where they struggle. Great way to get your name out in an important city for the HL wherein they should find a sympathetic populace that can't really be found in any other Indiana city. Also Heckler thinking his language wouldn't apply to Valpo seems a bit naive unless there's language in there that we don't know.

All of this said F LeCrone and his stupid crappy petty JV league.

Just find the money and settle. I am so done with these idiots in the HL.

That is what I am hung up on. $500k is not THAT much money and its making both sides look bad. Of course the HL would sue if Valpo doesnt pay so I can't blame them.....really interesting to learn valpo stance. Maybe lecrone sued the MVC to gain access/insight on how to run a successful conference 😂

My lawyer perspective: Often, lawsuits have little to do with money.  This is the Horizon League's parting shot at Valpo which reflects poorly on the HL.  This is a contract dispute.  Contracts are written to be broken.  If the contract calls for Valpo to pay an exit fee, Valpo needs to live up to that agreement.  I haven't seen the contract but from what I have read it sounds like the HL wants to hold Valpo to a verbal commitment rather than the written agreement.

I understand that this will be handle behind closed doors & I don't expect anyone from the University to comment publicly about the matter but can someone from the University anonymously just give their side of the story to Pgmado so they can at least give some form of defense or rationale behind this? It would be a better look then the status quo. The University already said they had private donors ready pledge to cover the exit-fee.

I don't begrudge to University for trying to settle for a number below the $500k if they think they have a case. There has to be more to this story we don't know about. Many seem to think its black & white case but none of us, include that forbes reporter have seen the fine-print.

It's comes across to casual readers that Valpo doesn't want to pay any buyout, which I'm guessing isn't the case at all in reality, even though in court they may be saying that. As an Alumni I'd like to see the University at least get their side of the story out there through back channels somewhere, because its a little embarrassing that the University is coming across as a little "cheap" & "wily" here. Manage the PR for reputations sake.

The Horizon League is coming across as pathetic for suing the Missouri Valley Conference... I'm waiting for lawsuits against the A10 for losing Butler and if their claims are valid then the Summit League would have legal grounds to sue the Horizon League over taking IUPUI in conference realignment. Doesn't surprise me LeCrone would do something like that. Just smack of pettiness & desperateness. No one is looking good right now.

Quote from: VU2014 on August 25, 2017, 10:05:38 AMbut can someone from the University anonymously just give their side of the story to Pgmado so they can at least give some form of defense or rationale behind this? It would be a better look then the status quo. The University already said they had private donors ready pledge to cover the exit-fee.

This article addresses some of your questions:

http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/horizon-league-sues-valparaiso-missouri-valley-conference/article_db307458-bf1d-5d0d-a039-9f4b077f1b7f.html

Quote from: 4throwfan on August 24, 2017, 03:26:17 PM
I'm a lawyer, but this is out of my wheelhouse.

Seems odd that venue is in Evansville.  However, it makes sense.  The suit says that venue is proper there since Evansville (a member of one of defendants) is located there.  So, venue under Indiana civil procedure is likely proper.  I would say the reason is simply to get away from Valpo.  They ask for a jury trial, so it would be dumb to have the suit in northwest Indiana where Valpo may have some simpathizers.  I looked up the law firm on the internet.  They market themselves as litigators, so they probably look for any tactical advantage regardless of the actual impact.

Most lawsuits settle in the neighborhood of 50 cents on the dollar (everyone is half right and half wrong), so expect Valpo and/or MVC to have to cough up $200-300K in order to settle.  That is, of course, if there are no other special circumstances, such as politics or NCAA tourney requirements require no open claims, etc.

That's my 2 cents, but probably not worth 2 cents.

If Valpo ends up settling for anything less than $500k, then this is a brilliant move by Heckler.  It's just like buying a car ... why pay the sticker price when you can negotiate a better deal?

Quote from: wh on August 24, 2017, 08:59:45 PMI have to wonder if there's more to the story than this; otherwise, Valpo comes off looking less than honorable here.

It's tempting to think that there are some hurt feelings involved, maybe on both sides. But, what do I know? Maybe a lawsuit is considered a completely reasonable, rational response, in some circles, to negotiate a discount.

Or maybe Valpo thinks by the letter of the law they don't owe the exit fee, and they'd be letting down their stakeholders if they paid it.

I agree that the optics of Valpo trying to avoid the fee don't look great, at least from my perspective.

The optics of the HL forcing Valpo to delay the announcement until the post-season was finished, and then filing a lawsuit against Valpo and the MVC with various allegations, also aren't fantastic.

Quote from: EddieCabot on August 25, 2017, 11:40:34 AMIf Valpo ends up settling for anything less than $500k, then this is a brilliant move by Heckler.  It's just like buying a car ... why pay the sticker price when you can negotiate a better deal?

Um, I'll bite... because you already entered into a contract to pay the sticker price?

Quote from: Pathfinder on August 25, 2017, 01:24:47 PM

Quote from: EddieCabot on August 25, 2017, 11:40:34 AMIf Valpo ends up settling for anything less than $500k, then this is a brilliant move by Heckler.  It's just like buying a car ... why pay the sticker price when you can negotiate a better deal?

Um, I'll bite... because you already entered into a contract to pay the sticker price?

[/b]

That is the issue.  Did we or didn't we?  Read the article I posted above.

Quote from: VU2014 on August 25, 2017, 10:05:38 AM
The Horizon League is coming across as pathetic for suing the Missouri Valley Conference... I'm waiting for lawsuits against the A10 for losing Butler and if their claims are valid then the Summit League would have legal grounds to sue the Horizon League over taking IUPUI in conference realignment. Doesn't surprise me LeCrone would do something like that. Just smack of pettiness & desperateness. No one is looking good right now.

They could have sued the A10, but given that Butler paid the exit fee and followed the legal contract between the school and the league, I doubt that would work out.  Butler actually had intended to compete in the Horizon in 2012-13, but given the other schools and league's stance that Butler wouldn't be able to represent the league in NCAA competitions, that predicated an earlier departure.

And really, who cares how Valpo looks to the few people who actually pick up on this story?  Kids (outside of maybe those birthed by staffers at the Horizon League office) aren't going to stop coming to VU because of this and it doesn't change anything about the basketball program.  The school, whether it's within its legal rights or not, is going to save some money, which means possibly more for athletics or the general students at the school, and that's a good thing.  The optics of this, really on both sides are going to have a minimal impact in my opinion.

Quote from: IrishDawg on August 25, 2017, 01:36:15 PM
Butler actually had intended to compete in the Horizon in 2012-13, but given the other schools and league's stance that Butler wouldn't be able to represent the league in NCAA competitions, that predicated an earlier departure.

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but building on IrishDawg's point...

Could Valpo be claiming that the HL violated league bylaws by refusing to guarantee that they would represent the league in NCAA post season play, thereby rendering the financial penalty clause null and void?

Indeed. Also, wasn't one of the exit fees from either Butler or Loyola amortized over more than one year? (Seem to recall that for some reason). That precedent might also be a sticking point. Considering that VU doesn't spend ten bucks without a plan in place, I figure they've crunched the numbers and have determined that there's no way going to court is going to cost them more than paying the 500K straight out.

QuoteBoth sides look kind of stupid here too unless there's some language in the agreement and or evidence we're not privy to. Suing the MVC seems foolish because it's extremely likely that the MVC's main inducement to Valpo was being a better more attractive more stable conference  Doug Elgin even credits Valpo for luring them. However Evansville may have been chosen because it's 1. In Indiana and would have jurisdiction on those grounds and a former HL\current Valley city with a rumored HL target (USI) and a fanbase that likely has fonder feelings for the HL where they were a power than the Valley where they struggle. Great way to get your name out in an important city for the HL wherein they should find a sympathetic populace that can't really be found in any other Indiana city. Also Heckler thinking his language wouldn't apply to Valpo seems a bit naive unless there's language in there that we don't know.

I am unsure why it was filed in Evansville as well. Seems like Evansville or Terre Haute would be the last two Indiana cities the Horizon would want to file a suit involving the Valley. To clarify, Evansville was never in the Horizon. It was still the MCC at that time, and of the current Horizon teams, only Detroit was a conference mate of ours.  It didn't change to the Horizon until all of the Mid-Con Hyphens came, which was after we left. I don't think you could find 12 people total that would ever associate UE with the Horizon, let alone fill a jury.  Most people around here don't see USI even going D-1 anytime soon, let alone associate them with the Horizon. UE will be starting it's 24th season in the Valley this year. There is absolutely no way the Horizon could even come close to being viewed as favorably as the Valley around here. Of the larger Indiana markets, Indy and Ft. Wayne would be far more favorable to the Horizon than Evansville.

"I am unsure why it was filed in Evansville as well. Seems like Evansville or Terre Haute would be the last two Indiana cities the Horizon would want to file a suit involving the Valley."

HL may not have had a choice.  Due to Indiana civil procedure rules, they likely had to file in one of three places: Valpo, Evansville, or Terre Haute, and possibly Indy (I'm not familiar with Indiana rules of civil procedure).  Probably less likely to have a crowd friendly to MVC/Valpo in Evansville.  Only other possible viable choice would be to try to file in St. Louis, but that may cause problems as well.

I've seen a couple of posts here and on twitter wondering what the damages could have possibly been.  Short answer is: it doesn't matter.  When parties to a contract know that damages would be hard to ascertain, they agree on damages up front.  These are called "liquidated damages".  For example, suppose that a town is going to change a traffic intersection from a stop sign intersection to a stop light intersection.  If the contractor is late, it is nearly impossible to calculate what the damages would be.  But, both parties agree that there would be monetary losses for the town.  So, they agree to some amount, e.g. $100 per day, as damages for late completion.  So long as the dollar amount cannot be shown (in this case shown by Valpo/MVC) to be merely a penalty, then the liquidated damages are enforceable.  So, HL will not need to prove their actual damages.  They will simply need to prove that the contract was breached.  Valpo/MVC may try to argue that the damages are merely a penalty.  But so long as HL can come up with some explanation as to a monetary loss, then the Valpo/MVC argument will fail.  I see HL winning that argument. 

In short, to win at trial, or more importantly to develop a strong settlement position, Valpo/MVC would need to have a different contractual defense.

I don't have any knowledge of the facts here, so I'm just speculating.  But, I'd be shocked if Valpo and the MVC didn't long ago come up with an exit strategy to deal with this liquidated damage.  If this drags out through the next academic year, then it would seem like part of the plan went awry. 

Quote from: 4throwfan on August 27, 2017, 08:43:41 AM
"I am unsure why it was filed in Evansville as well. Seems like Evansville or Terre Haute would be the last two Indiana cities the Horizon would want to file a suit involving the Valley."

HL may not have had a choice.  Due to Indiana civil procedure rules, they likely had to file in one of three places: Valpo, Evansville, or Terre Haute, and possibly Indy (I'm not familiar with Indiana rules of civil procedure).  Probably less likely to have a crowd friendly to MVC/Valpo in Evansville.  Only other possible viable choice would be to try to file in St. Louis, but that may cause problems as well.

I've seen a couple of posts here and on twitter wondering what the damages could have possibly been.  Short answer is: it doesn't matter.  When parties to a contract know that damages would be hard to ascertain, they agree on damages up front.  These are called "liquidated damages".  For example, suppose that a town is going to change a traffic intersection from a stop sign intersection to a stop light intersection.  If the contractor is late, it is nearly impossible to calculate what the damages would be.  But, both parties agree that there would be monetary losses for the town.  So, they agree to some amount, e.g. $100 per day, as damages for late completion.  So long as the dollar amount cannot be shown (in this case shown by Valpo/MVC) to be merely a penalty, then the liquidated damages are enforceable.  So, HL will not need to prove their actual damages.  They will simply need to prove that the contract was breached.  Valpo/MVC may try to argue that the damages are merely a penalty.  But so long as HL can come up with some explanation as to a monetary loss, then the Valpo/MVC argument will fail.  I see HL winning that argument. 

In short, to win at trial, or more importantly to develop a strong settlement position, Valpo/MVC would need to have a different contractual defense.

I don't have any knowledge of the facts here, so I'm just speculating.  But, I'd be shocked if Valpo and the MVC didn't long ago come up with an exit strategy to deal with this liquidated damage.  If this drags out through the next academic year, then it would seem like part of the plan went awry. 

Interesting information. Nice to have attorneys on board (IrishDawg also) to bring some clarity.  :thumbsup:

Must listen Union Street Hoops Podcast! Paul did a interview with the Forbes writer who broke the story about HL suing VU & MVC. Also does another interview with Luke Gore breaking down the schedule and why the schedule is the way it is.

http://www.nwitimes.com/digital/audio/union-street-hoops/podcast-union-street-hoops-episode/audio_bcec8bec-8dcb-11e7-8f86-5b81f5440cce.html

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/903012267758944256

could we use as a defense? "The HL is not offering the same product as the one when we signed the contract with HL?   8-)

Quote from: oklahomamick on August 31, 2017, 10:54:04 AM
could we use as a defense? "The HL is not offering the same product as the one when we signed the contract with HL?   8-)

Interesting thought... If the Horizon had properly replaced or retained Butler and Loyola, we would not have felt the pressure to move to a better conference.  Their recent move to a single site conference tournament also inhibited the ability of the league, and in particular Valparaiso University, to earn a larger share of NCAA television revenue causing damages to both the conference and individual schools.  This mismanagement by Jon LeCrone is the true breach of contract that should be brought out in this suit.  :)

mh - "We shouldn't have to pay the 500k penalty that I recommended because I didn't participate in the conference call where it was voted on." 

Are you kidding me?

Quote from: wh on August 31, 2017, 05:23:28 PM
mh - "We shouldn't have to pay the 500k penalty that I recommended because I didn't participate in the conference call where it was voted on." 
Are you kidding me?

To be fair there is more to the story then we probably know about and there may be documentation/paperwork (that isn't public record) that builds VU's case and it sounds like the Horizon League didn't even entertain arbitration which may have been mandatory as part of the bylaws. There is so much to this story we don't know about. But sounds like there is plenty of bad blood on both sides.

Not a lawyer so I'll leave the analysis of the case to those who are. What I will say is that if the contract has a clause requiring arbitration, that can be a major point in VU's favor.

Obviously, this is not the same situation, but one of the reasons the Wrigleyville rooftop owners basically had their case tossed very quickly when they were trying to sue to stop the Cubs' renovations a couple years back was that the contract between the team and the rooftops specifically called for arbitration to determine a financial remedy for any breach or violation of the contract. The rooftops never entered into any good-faith arbitration efforts.

While the Chicago media was hyperventilating over how would the Cubs get around the "contract until 2024," how bad they were going to lose in court, and whether they'd have to move to Rosemont or whatever, some adept Cubs bloggers actually got a copy of the contract and noted that it was rooftops who'd likely lose any court case, in large part due to the arbitration clause, and that worst-case scenario is that the Cubs would end up paying market value for the buildings whose views would be obstructed by their new video boards. Now, granted, it's always going to depend on how a judge views how such a clause is written, but it was pretty clear that in the Cubs' case, the rooftops' demanding 5-10x the market value for their buildings without independent arbitration didn't cut it.

I doubt the HL has overplayed their hand as badly as the Wrigleyville rooftop owners did (the Cubs now own 12 of the 16 buildings around Wrigley and one of the rooftop owners is in jail after the increased scrutiny of the case brought to light that he had failed to pay millions in both taxes and agreed-upon royalties to the Cubs), but again, I'd venture that VU doesn't say "OK, sue us" without having good reason to do so, either.

Can someone who has looked at the HL contract tell me how to get to it quickly?

I haven't seen the pleadings, but in Paul's podcast, he mentions that Valpo filed a motion for change of venue.  IF arbitration was required, then that filing might have waived Valpo's right to compel arbitration.  Haven't seen the pleading, so I can't say for sure.

Note that arbitrations are private, so if arbitration is chosen, that will likely be the last bit of public news that we hear, which may be frustrating for the fan base.  The fact that arbitration was required, and the parties chose public litigation (along with the fact that HL included more in its lawsuit than necessary) suggests to me that one or both parties wanted this fight in the public arena.

Having not seen any pleadings other than the complaint, not seeing the contract, and not knowing any facts at all, I may be way off base.

An update on the HL Lawsuit from 'Valley Hoops Insider'. Interviewed MVC General Counsel Mitch Margo about the situation.

https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/911015810394705921
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/horizonvalparaiso-lawsuit/

Quote from: VU2014 on September 22, 2017, 08:53:44 AM
An update on the HL Lawsuit from 'Valley Hoops Insider'. Interviewed MVC General Counsel Mitch Margo about the situation.

https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/911015810394705921
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/horizonvalparaiso-lawsuit/

This puts a different light on EVERYTHING.  The Horizon League can go F itself.

Talked to Dr. Heckler about this rather extensively on Wednesday and he said exactly the same things.  Valparaiso had these separate agreements, including the equity situation, with the league that were outside of the normal bylaws and VU felt these extenuating circumstances required the negotiation also outlined in the by laws which the league ignored.  VU feels that the MVC was brought into this because the Horizon is preemptively telling the MVC not to attempt to raid other schools from the Horizon. If both Valpo and Milwaukee would have gone to the MVC it would have been devastating to the HL.

It's hard to feel bad for the Horizon League.

A) The Horizon League has continually just raided the Summit League

B) The Horizon League has genuinely screwed Valpo on multiple occasions in our time there.
-LeCrone changed the Tourney Location/Format that was meant to help the Top Seed & reward the best regular season teams. (NEVER would have done that to Butler)
-They basically gave VU the middle finger by moving that garbage tournament to Detroit & claimed it was Neutral site, which is a blatant lie
-They chose favorites when Butler was in the League
-Screwed Valpo (AND the other Horizon League Teams) by adding NKU the year Valpo had a team that had a very real chance to be an At-Large Team. Hurt our strength of schedule/RPI. They also may have cost their conference monetary Tourney units & at-large prestige.

The Horizon League gave us no incentive to want to stay & showed zero ability to clean up its act at HQ.

Overall the Horizon League was great for Valpo (early-on) in our 10 years there but we quickly outgrew the conference and its a shell of itself now. I just don't feel any sympathy for the Horizon League (particularly for LeCrone or HL HQ).


There is still a chance the MVC expands to 12 and they may take Milwaukee. I personally don't see much value in Milwaukee. They aren't particularly great at Basketball & haven't been for a few years now (they won the HL Tourney in 2013-2014 but they weren't above .500 in Conference play that year.) They were one of the lowest in attendance in the Conference with the largest school. Commuter campus doesn't fit MVC mold. 3rd most popular college team in their own market. A chaotic Athletics Department and Administration. Although I enjoyed having our large Milwaukee based Alumni base being able to easily get to games and get involved. Maybe they'll get good again under Baldwin but their team next season look rough. The new UWM staff has really been hitting recruiting trail hard and they've been throwing out offers like candy on Halloween this Summer/Fall.

If the conference expands I'd personally like to see the best Basketball schools possible. Maybe Belmont & Murray State. maybe UWM as a plan b or c. If the Conference expands it NEEDS to get the both teams right & not settle.

Quote from: VU2014 on September 22, 2017, 08:53:44 AMInterviewed MVC General Counsel Mitch Margo about the situation.

With quite a few quotes from Valpo "spokesperson" (head of IMC, Integrated Marketing and Communications) Nicole Niemi. Hopefully the typo(es?) are Schroeder's. This new information definitely changes the complexion of the case.

I wonder why Valpo didn't put this information out sooner, when the story first broke.

When this issue first surfaced, regretfully I bought into the narrative that Valpo may be trying to beat the HL out of money that it obviously owed. Now it appears it's exactly the opposite - the HL is trying to beat Valpo out of money it obviously doesn't owe. I should have known better.

Quote from: FWalum on September 22, 2017, 11:26:16 AM
Talked to Dr. Heckler about this rather extensively on Wednesday and he said exactly the same things.  Valparaiso had these separate agreements, including the equity situation, with the league that were outside of the normal bylaws and VU felt these extenuating circumstances required the negotiation also outlined in the by laws which the league ignored.  VU feels that the MVC was brought into this because the Horizon is preemptively telling the MVC not to attempt to raid other schools from the Horizon. If both Valpo and Milwaukee would have gone to the MVC it would have been devastating to the HL.

I also wanted to say that President Heckler felt that the Horizon League's representation of him in the court documents as the "author' and leading proponent of the amendment to bylaw 2 which changed the exit fee to $500,000 dollars was misleading.  He told me that he only felt that it was fair that new teams coming into the league should face the same consequences to withdrawal as VU did when they entered the league. Since VU had a separate and completely different withdrawal agreement with the league, VU thought that agreement should be considered.

So other articles and I believe one radio show that I heard said that VU should just pay the fee and be done with it because $500,000 was not that big of a deal.  I asked him about that and he said that all the other schools mentioned in those accounts were also schools that had large football revenue with much larger athletic budgets.  He told me that $500K was not a trivial amount to VU.

Quote from: VU2014 on September 22, 2017, 11:40:41 AM
It's hard to feel bad for the Horizon League.

A) The Horizon League has continually just raided the Summit League

B) The Horizon League has genuinely screwed Valpo on multiple occasions in our time there.
-LeCrone changed the Tourney Location/Format that was meant to help the Top Seed & reward the best regular season teams. (NEVER would have done that to Butler)
-They basically gave VU the middle finger by moving that garbage tournament to Detroit & claimed it was Neutral site, which is a blatant lie
-They chose favorites when Butler was in the League
-Screwed Valpo (AND the other Horizon League Teams) by adding NKU the year Valpo had a team that had a very real chance to be an At-Large Team. Hurt our strength of schedule/RPI. They also may have cost their conference monetary Tourney units & at-large prestige.

The Horizon League gave us no incentive to want to stay & showed zero ability to clean up its act at HQ.

Overall the Horizon League was great for Valpo (early-on) in our 10 years there but we quickly outgrew the conference and its a shell of itself now. I just don't feel any sympathy for the Horizon League (particularly for LeCrone or HL HQ).


There is still a chance the MVC expands to 12 and they may take Milwaukee. I personally don't see much value in Milwaukee. They aren't particularly great at Basketball & haven't been for a few years now (they won the HL Tourney in 2013-2014 but they weren't above .500 in Conference play that year.) They were one of the lowest in attendance in the Conference with the largest school. Commuter campus doesn't fit MVC mold. 3rd most popular college team in their own market. A chaotic Athletics Department and Administration. Although I enjoyed having our large Milwaukee based Alumni base being able to easily get to games and get involved. Maybe they'll get good again under Baldwin but their team next season look rough. The new UWM staff has really been hitting recruiting trail hard and they've been throwing out offers like candy on Halloween this Summer/Fall.

If the conference expands I'd personally like to see the best Basketball schools possible. Maybe Belmont & Murray State. maybe UWM as a plan b or c. If the Conference expands it NEEDS to get the both teams right & not settle.

If that would happen the Valley definitely moves up a few notches.  It would make sense with the current public/private blend by adding one public and one private.  Belmont seems unwilling at this point to entertain the move.  Perhaps Lipscomb, a private also in Nashville.  Not Milwaukee, as you suggest, kind of out of the market and a commuter school, perfect for the Horizon MO.

Anyone want to make a prediction about how this lawsuit will affect future expansion, if at all, among the MVC, Summit, and HL?  I am going to speculate wildly.  And I mean wildly.

I think it's entirely plausible that the Summit and the MVC will now form an unspoken alliance of some sort, both now having been "wronged" by the HL in some capacity (the Summit by being raided all these years and the MVC now by being sued).  Plus, there are nexuses between the MVC and the Summit via the MVFC and also because some MVC teams like VU serve as affiliate members in minor sports with the Summit.  It's in the best interest of each league to exchange pleasantries and to focus efforts to negate HL expansion to the west.  One out of spite, the other out of survival.

The MVC wants to move to 12 and it will.  The Summit wants to survive against the WAC, and it will.  So here is what happens.  Everyone knows that MO State needs a travel partner and going to 11 is untenable. By mutual assurances, the MVC pledges to the Summit that it will not draw a team from their league (Omaha, UMKC, ORU) to fill that need.  This in turn, keeps the Summit stable, and essentially kills any westward expansion by the HL since ORU, Omaha, Denver et. al. are now all off of the table.

UMKC moves from the WAC to the Summit.  IPFW moves to the HL along with one other.  Summit stays at 9.  HL moves to 12 with sights set at 14.  The MVC, recognizing that a close travel partner to MO State is now potentially off the table via the Summit, still sitting with 10 members, takes either Murray and NKU to get to 12 OR takes Murray and Detroit to get to 12, keeping the 6-6 public private split.  Murray is allowed into the MVFC because of the alliance between the Summit League and the MVC.  The later creates a problem for the very travel partner centric HL since there would be no viable travel partner for Oakland.  The former essentially ends major southern HL expansion generally, although I suppose Morehead could be on the table.  NMSU re-evaluates, and chooses to remain in the WAC instead of the HL.

Having now been penned in to the west and the south generally, the HL is now forced to move east for teams 13 and 14, and the Summit breathes a sigh of relief.  Valpo, being the farthest from MO State, agrees to some kind of intra league scheduling arrangement that helps MO State with travel costs until the Sun Belt is ready to expand again. 

This happens over the next 2-3 years.  In 2027, Valpo wins its first FCS national title, defeating Delaware 20-16, on two safeties late in the 4th quarter.

That is quite the prediction.

This what I see happening.

MVC Expansion:
-Belmont* (MVC wants them but they won't because they don't want to invest in every other sport to compete in a much better league & I think Byrd is very content beating up the weak OVC & doesn't want the challenge of competing in a much better league at his age)
-Murray State (obvious add)

2 options for the 2nd team:
-Milwaukee (the MVC has shown they want to be in big markets by adding Loyola of us the 1st time (a mistake) & they may not learn from their mistakes)

-NKU (I'm not going to lie I'd be a little irk if they join because they never as a D1 "earned" it or had to go through ups & downs as school to get to one of the best Mid-Major Conferences. Also they're fans are cocky & annoying. They think their hot-$hit & started jawing off on social media because of their cake-walk in the HL Tourney last year.)

My Prediction the MVC adds: Murray State & NKU... but if they REALLY wanted to screw the HL (which is not the primary goal) they'd take Milwaukee and there would be no travel partner for Green Bay. Green Bay would look to join the Summit League and would actually not be a bad fit.

Quote from: VU2014 on September 22, 2017, 03:29:41 PM

-NKU (I'm not going to lie I'd be a little irk if they join because they never as a D1 "earned" it or had to go through ups & downs as school to get to one of the best Mid-Major Conferences. Also they're fans are cocky & annoying. They think their hot-$hit & started jawing off on social media because of their cake-walk in the HL Tourney last year.)

Agreed.  They did have an absolute cake-walk.  And their fans are extremely cocky.  Just making the NCAAT is nothing to brag about ... even a crap league like the HL had to send someone.  I'll listen to their crap when they win a NCAAT tourney game.

Just a friendly occasional reminder: Valpo has a 3 game winning streak against Butler. That is all.

Waiting for Butler to man up & schedule a Home-&-Home with Valpo. The ball is in LaVal's court. Hopefully he isn't a chicken liver like his predecessor.

Quote from: VU2014 on September 22, 2017, 06:16:48 PM
Just a friendly occasional reminder: Valpo has a 3 game winning streak against Butler. That is all.

Waiting for Butler to man up & schedule a Home-&-Home with Valpo. The ball is in LaVal's court. Hopefully he isn't a chicken liver like his predecessor.

It is actually 4.   ;D

Death, Taxes, & idiotic Oakland fans...

https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/912358694196826113

OU fan seems a bit paranoid. Why worry about Valpo now...we are gone from HL. Yay! Enjoy IUPUI I say. Had he/she actually read the article he might understand the Valpo position. Just because Valpo voted to raise exit fees after Butler's exit does not necessarily void a contract Valpo entered into with the HL upon joining the league. I'm not an attorney but that seems to be the big issue or am I missing something?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Quote from: vufan75 on September 25, 2017, 02:11:28 PM
OU fan seems a bit paranoid. Why worry about Valpo now...we are gone from HL. Yay! Enjoy IUPUI I say. Had he/she actually read the article he might understand the Valpo position. Just because Valpo voted to raise exit fees after Butler's exit does not necessarily void a contract Valpo entered into with the HL upon joining the league. I'm not an attorney but that seems to be the big issue or am I missing something?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

I don't think you are missing anything.  It seems like basic contract law.  We have a deal with the Horizon that allows us to leave with no penalty.  Whether we voted to increase the penalty for leaving for future teams is a moot point.  Kinda like saying to a car dealer that sold us a car for X and then later sold a car to someone else for Y.  Doesn't make sense for us to give the dealer additional funds just because he was charges others more in the future.  Or perhaps a better way to look at it would be from a private golf club standpoint.  I got in for X because that was the deal at the time.  Later I voted with the majority of the members to increase the initiation to Y for future members.  That certainly wouldn't be retroactive to existing members.

Oakland fans have some major insecurity issues... Probably the most insecure "fan-base" I've ever seen.

Quote from: VU2014 on September 25, 2017, 04:08:03 PM
Oakland fans have some major insecurity issues... Probably the most insecure "fan-base" I've ever seen.

You obviously don't remember ORU fans.

Valpo Lawsuit Update
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/919915136999047169
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/valpo-lawsuit-update/

"Valley Hoops Insider has now learned that Valpo's motion to have the trial moved to Porter County, from Evansville will be heard on November 3. That move, some believe, would immediately pull the Missouri Valley Conference from the suit."

Some significant news in terms of the HL lawsuit. I'm no lawyer but this sounds like some positive news for Valparaiso.
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/930926226793025541

Quote from: VU2014 on November 15, 2017, 10:11:44 PM
Some significant news in terms of the HL lawsuit. I'm no lawyer but this sounds like some positive news for Valparaiso.
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/930926226793025541

Based on what some of the MVC staff that were interviewed about the suit said in their comments, this is really good news for the MVC. They were saying all along that the only legitimate reason the suit included the conference was that the Horizon League wanted to file somewhere else besides Porter County.

Quote from: FWalum on November 15, 2017, 10:56:19 PM

Quote from: VU2014 on November 15, 2017, 10:11:44 PM
Some significant news in terms of the HL lawsuit. I'm no lawyer but this sounds like some positive news for Valparaiso.
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/930926226793025541

Based on what some of the MVC staff that were interviewed about the suit said in their comments, this is really good news for the MVC. They were saying all along that the only legitimate reason the suit included the conference was that the Horizon League wanted to file somewhere else besides Porter County.

Always good to play at home, but Porter County is no kangaroo court system. Valpo will still have to make a strong case that the $500k early exit clause doesn't apply to them.

Quote from: wh on November 15, 2017, 11:06:30 PM
Always good to play at home, but Porter County is no kangaroo court system. Valpo will still have to make a strong case that the $500k early exit clause doesn't apply to them.

President Heckler made a pretty convincing case when I talked to him in September. Valpo had made the separate agreements with the league concerning the early exit and the equity stake, all of which were much higher than the conference bylaw exit fees and equity amounts at that time. Valpo's position was that the new bylaws did not supersede the separate agreements that Valpo and the league had previously negotiated.

Quote from: wh on November 15, 2017, 11:06:30 PMAlways good to play at home, but Porter County is no kangaroo court system. Valpo will still have to make a strong case that the $500k early exit clause doesn't apply to them.

From many years of observation I have noted that VU students never seem to win in the Porter County courts.  ::).  Given that track record maybe our best defense would have been to leave this case in Vanderburgh County.   ;D

Quote from: justducky on November 15, 2017, 11:31:54 PM

Quote from: wh on November 15, 2017, 11:06:30 PMAlways good to play at home, but Porter County is no kangaroo court system. Valpo will still have to make a strong case that the $500k early exit clause doesn't apply to them.

From many years of observation I have noted that VU students never seem to win in the Porter County courts.  ::).  Given that track record maybe our best defense would have been to leave this case in Vanderburgh County.   ;D

Perhaps we can go to pre trial diversion with Judge Chidester...not that I'm speaking from experience or anything.


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Wonder if we could counter with a tort lawsuit against the HL? 

Quote from: oklahomamick on November 16, 2017, 10:48:32 AM
Wonder if we could counter with a tort lawsuit against the HL? 

Sue for defamation and the fact that LeCrone is a terrible commissioner  ;)

Quote from: VU2014 on November 16, 2017, 11:16:52 AM

Quote from: oklahomamick on November 16, 2017, 10:48:32 AM
Wonder if we could counter with a tort lawsuit against the HL? 

Sue for defamation and the fact that LeCrone is a terrible commissioner  ;)

Realistically, in the Valley reporting (the stuff that quoted Nicole Niemi; from Harry Schroeder I think) there was discussion of a counter-suit from Valpo seeking what were apparently contractually stipulated repayment of initial fees. The news report made it sound like a probability, but maybe that was a negotiating strategy.

The Horizon League has decided to give participation trophies for every team at the end of the regular season. "The benefit of competition isn't actually winning" says the commissioner. "Everybody is a winner and champion. Therefore, we will not participate in conference championship games which pick the 'winning team' for an automatic bid to NCAA tournament."

OMG! This is revolutionary. That's a new NCAA mandate, right?

UPDATE:

https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/955950067621466113
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/955951062241947648

Wow.That's a bombshell. I wonder if this will put more pressure on the Horizon League to settle.

Let's go Valpo!  Let's go Valpo!

A change of venue must be a good thing, as we can't win on the court, so let's win in it!

The HL's legal strategy was about as thorough as their tournament site selection process, apparently.

This has nothing to do with the law suit but didn't know where else to post it.  Did anybody else notice that Oakland lost to Cleveland State?  Wow!  Oakland misses the dance with their loaded senior class.  I wonder if the Oakland faithful will want Kampe's head.  My guess is yes, and maybe he would agree that after 30+ years it might be time to just step back and let a younger guy take the lead.

Quote from: vu72 on March 06, 2018, 08:38:25 AMThis has nothing to do with the law suit but didn't know where else to post it.  Did anybody else notice that Oakland lost to Cleveland State?  Wow!  Oakland misses the dance with their loaded senior class.  I wonder if the Oakland faithful will want Kampe's head.  My guess is yes, and maybe he would agree that after 30+ years it might be time to just step back and let a younger guy take the lead.

It is going to be rough for the HL if Cleveland State beats Wright State tonight.... Cleveland State has a 12-22 record.

I was rooting for UWM last night against Wright State.  Wanted to #rpi 297 Cleveland St versus #rpi 238 Milwaukee in the HL final. 

I wonder if we'll get an update on this soon. Interestingly, Loyola's run has provided a nice buffer for VU in case things go south in this case. (I fully expect VU to prevail though).

Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 01, 2018, 08:25:27 PM
I wonder if we'll get an update on this soon. Interestingly, Loyola's run has provided a nice buffer for VU in case things go south in this case. (I fully expect VU to prevail though).

The commish said in a interview during Arch Madness that it was likely the league was staying at 10 next season. We're definitely not going to expand to 11. Maybe Belmont wants to be more then a big fish a tiny pond. I doubt it, but I might just be pessimistic.

Sorry for the similar posts because I did post something like this in the expansion thread but this is about the lawsuit. I have seen the interview you referred to and am likewise not optimistic about expansion this year. I just hope we take advantage of the profile boost while we have it but that's a topic for another thread. Does anyone know anything about the HL's lawsuit?

I've recently heard Valpo isn't planning on having to pay the Horizon league anything.

Quote from: M on April 01, 2018, 09:59:54 PM
I've recently heard Valpo isn't planning on having to pay the Horizon league anything.

Think Valpo's countersuit will succeed?

Read in the local papers a few days ago that a hearing is scheduled for July 12 pursuant to a request by the HL to dismiss some of Valpo's counterclaims.

Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 21, 2018, 05:32:54 PM
Read in the local papers a few days ago that a hearing is scheduled for July 12 pursuant to a request by the HL to dismiss some of Valpo's counterclaims.

Yes, in front of Judge Roger Bradford, a Valpo Law grad!!

Didn't Roger Bradford come over on the Mayflower or settle Rhode Island or something.   I'm a rusty on my early colonial period.   

OK,  maybe that is  off track.   :)

Quote from: crusadermoe on April 22, 2018, 06:25:04 PM
Didn't Roger Bradford come over on the Mayflower or settle Rhode Island or something.   I'm a rusty on my early colonial period.   

OK,  maybe that is  off track.   :)

I love an off track question.   :-[

William Bradford was a leader in the Mayflower colony. William's uncle was Robert Bradford who raised William and his sister in Yorkshire from an early age. On his own accord at the age of 18, William Bradford joined the separatists that fled to Amsterdam to avoid the persecution of James I, king of England, in 1608. 

Bradford was the head of the government of Plymouth, oversaw the courts, the colony's finances, corresponded with investors and neighbors, formulated policy with regards to foreigners, Indians, and law, and so had a very active role in the running of the entire Colony. With his second wife, he had three more children, all of whom survived to adulthood and married.

Beginning in 1630, he started writing a history of the Plymouth Colony, which is now published under the title Of Plymouth Plantation. He continued writing his history of Plymouth through about 1651.  Bradford's History is one of the primary sources used by historians, and is the only thorough history of Plymouth Colony that was written by a Mayflower passenger.  It is required reading in a number of collegiate American History courses, and an edition of it was edited by MayflowerHistory.com historian Caleb Johnson (see Amazon.com link to the right).  A number of his letters, poems, conferences, and other writings of William Bradford, have also survived. 

William Bradford was generally sick all through the winter of 1656-1657; on May 8, Bradford predicted to his friends and family that he would die, and he did the next day, 9 May 1657, at the age of 68.


(https://study.com/cimages/multimages/16/williambradford_bwnew.jpg)

Very helpful. It looks like I was half right twice.  I can now rest easier tonight.

I had half my brain tied behind my back.

Per a search: Roger Williams -----he founded the Rhode Island colony. First, he was banished from Massachusetts, and he moved south with his wife. He met the Narangansett tribe and they helped him found his anti-Puritan colony of Rhode Island

Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 21, 2018, 05:32:54 PM
Read in the local papers a few days ago that a hearing is scheduled for July 12 pursuant to a request by the HL to dismiss some of Valpo's counterclaims.

Keep us posted. If this really does see court in some fashion, it may be amusing to drop in. I've actually never been to court... (knock on wood)

I'll do my best. I stumbled upon the article quite by accident. It was buried in the paper.

Looking at past and present schedules since Valpo joined the MVC I noticed the following:

Men's basketball tried (unsuccessfully) to schedule a charity exhibition with Oakland

Baseball played Milwaukee

Softball played IUPUI

Men's and women's soccer both played IUPUI Women's soccer also played Wright State and Belmont which was an affiliate member at the time

This year so far

men's soccer is playing IUPUI and Milwaukee

And women's soccer plays IUPUI Oakland Green Bay and UIC

That is a ton of cooperative interaction given the contentious nature of VU exit. Is it possible this means things will resolve themselves amicably between VU and the HL?

Quote from: VUGrad1314 on June 27, 2018, 05:41:37 AM
Looking at past and present schedules since Valpo joined the MVC I noticed the following:

Men's basketball tried (unsuccessfully) to schedule a charity exhibition with Oakland

Baseball played Milwaukee

Softball played IUPUI

Men's and women's soccer both played IUPUI Women's soccer also played Wright State and Belmont which was an affiliate member at the time

This year so far

men's soccer is playing IUPUI and Milwaukee

And women's soccer plays IUPUI Oakland Green Bay and UIC

That is a ton of cooperative interaction given the contentious nature of VU exit. Is it possible this means things will resolve themselves amicably between VU and the HL?

I don't think many of the other Athletics Departments took it personally that we left the HL. Lecrone certainly did though. Maybe some schools admin did but I don't know.

I could imagine other HL men's basketball programs wanting to schedule Home-&-Homes with us but do we want to schedule them? Probably not... I wouldn't mind a H-&-H series with Oakland (because they were somewhat a rival) and maybe Milwaukee to get the Milwaukee alumni base involved, but other than that I'd groan at the thought of a H-&-H with any of the others. We need a break from most HL teams. Not to mention that most the HL teams now are garbage and we don't need that on our schedule.

Probably not. First of all, throw out IUPUI -- those games were likely contracted before we left the HL and they joined it. As for the others, non-revenue sports usually don't come into play in disputes like this. They need regional opponents to keep their budgets under control, full stop. Neither side has the luxury of getting too choosy there.

We play Butler in football and baseball every year. It has no impact on the bad blood between the two basketball programs nor are we any closer to a series there, and neither school is suing the other.

Does anyone have an update on this? I assume no news is good news?

I'm surprised this is still pending. You'd think there would have been a resolution to it by now.

Quote from: VUGrad1314 on August 25, 2018, 01:41:10 AM
I'm surprised this is still pending. You'd think there would have been a resolution to it by now.

The courts move almost as slow as our divided congress and senate. It does seem better decisions are made when time is put between the occurrence and the court's pronouncement. 

Is there any new info on where the law suit regarding  VU and the Horizon League?     All this time and no news on the progress of the proceedings?

Cant even find a case regarding the horizon league and valparaiso university cases seem to be with individuals. Anyone know anything about the case? Case number, official party names, etc?

Quote from: elephtheria47 on September 22, 2018, 01:02:12 PM
Cant even find a case regarding the horizon league and valparaiso university cases seem to be with individuals. Anyone know anything about the case? Case number, official party names, etc?

It seems that both sides are pretty dug into their trenches. The HL probably slowed everything down when they filed the suit in evansville because they didn't want the case to go to trial in Porter County. eventually it did get switched to Porter and we haven't heard much since. I thought I remembered someone mentioning that the University was going to sue the HL for a unpaid deposit the HL owed us. When Valparaiso University joined the conference we had a separate membership agreement from the rest of our peers. I seem to remember hearing that the Horizon League could actually owe us money, sort of like getting your safety deposit back at the end of your lease. I could be misremembering but VU had a very strong case for breach of contract.

I spoke to Mark LaBarbera about this and the news is that there is no news.  Nothing happening at the present.

Speaking as someone with absolutely no knowledge of the case, but as an attorney who has tried commercial disputes like this one, I will add a couple of cents.

This case is a year old.  I would not expect the case to be resolved within that time, but I'm also surprised that there is not much news.  If the Horizon League thought that it was owed some money then it seems that it would be pushing the action a little bit more.  Also, it seems that Valpo does NOT think that the relevant contract documents are in its favor on their face.  Otherwise, it would have filed a motion to dismiss by now.  (Maybe it did, but lost.)  Again, I have no knowledge, but I'm a little surprised at the inactivity.

Like elephtheria47, I looked at the on-line court docket, and could not find the case.  If I could read the docket, I could offer more.  I don't practice in Indiana, so I'm a little bit shorthanded.

Valpo filed a motion to dismiss and Judge Bradford denied it on July 12, 2018. The case is now set for mediation.

It is possible that the two parties agreed to mediation after the loss on the motion to dismiss.  In other words, one party says to the other: "okay, now that we know that we will have to go to trial, let's not waste a bunch of money on discovery, but rather let's try to settle."  For bodies in the public eye, it's probably smart because they avoid a potential loss in court which would be public information.  On the other hand, if they settle in mediation, they can keep the outcome private.  No public embarrassments.

If that's the case, then it'll probably settle in the mediation, which means that the lawsuit could be done by Halloween, or Thanksgiving at the latest.  If the mediation is forced on them due to a contract clause (very unlikely) or a court rule (unlikely), then it likely won't settle.

A person can probably roughly estimate the outcome of the settlement.  I don't remember the dollars involved, but if you take the net owed, and then bracket somewhere in the middle, then that will give a rough idea.  For example, if the HL is asking for $800,000, and VU is asking for $300,000, then a reasonable estimate could be that VU ends up paying $100K-$300K.  Doesn't always go that way, but no one should be disappointed if that's the range.  We'll likely never know the result since the settlement will likely be confidential.

Quote from: elephtheria47 on October 03, 2018, 01:11:24 PM
Valpo filed a motion to dismiss and Judge Bradford denied it on July 12, 2018. The case is now set for mediation.

Judge Bradford earned his J.D. from the VU Law School. I doubt it will hold any sway, but either way it's nice to hear.

If he can't make a fair and impartial decision then he has to recuse himself from the case, and that's exactly what Judge Clymer did who the case was initially assigned to in Porter County (and who also taught at the law school).

Theres already a lot of sealed documents. I'm thinking we will never know the settlement as 4throwfan alluded to.

I wouldn't expect this to drag out too much longer (in court time, couple of months in real time). As was mentioned, this is where things can start getting expensive if you want to keep pursuing your belief. Unless theres an axe to grind, itll get settled in mediation. A defendant (Missouri valley) is out and the motion to dismiss was denied. Time to hammer it out.

Quote from: elephtheria47 on October 03, 2018, 08:56:48 PM
If he can't make a fair and impartial decision then he has to recuse himself from the case, and that's exactly what Judge Clymer did who the case was initially assigned to in Porter County (and who also taught at the law school).

Theres already a lot of sealed documents. I'm thinking we will never know the settlement as 4throwfan alluded to.

I wouldn't expect this to drag out too much longer (in court time, couple of months in real time). As was mentioned, this is where things can start getting expensive if you want to keep pursuing your belief. Unless theres an axe to grind, itll get settled in mediation. A defendant (Missouri valley) is out and the motion to dismiss was denied. Time to hammer it out.

I have a friend who went to VU Law School and works in the area. I asked him what he thought of Judge Bradford and he said he's a straight shooter. VU won't get any special treatment even if he's an alumnus. As for axe to grind, who knows what's in Lecrone's mind. It was pretty petty to attach the MVC to the lawsuit.

I don't doubt for an instant that LeCrone may have an axe to grind. If Valpo's argument in this case is even remotely credible then saying that the HL handled VU's exit poorly is charitable. Time to broker some sort of settlement agreement and let both parties go their separate ways in peace.

Sounds like the HL lawsuit against Valpo and resulting countersuit by Valpo has ended. A draw. Nobody wins damages and each party pays its own legal costs. The details are reported at end of the article link.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/sports/ct-ptb-spt-mens-basketball-valparaiso-notes-donovan-clay-st-0205-story,amp.html?__twitter_impression=true



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The case settled with valpo paying the horizon league something according to the article. That's why it was dismissed. We will probably never know what valpo paid unless someone has someone in the know. I assume there was a confidentiality agreement.

Quote from: valpolaw on February 05, 2019, 06:42:35 AMThe case settled with valpo paying the horizon league something according to the article. That's why it was dismissed. We will probably never know what valpo paid unless someone has someone in the know. I assume there was a confidentiality agreement.

The article says both sides pay for their own court costs. Is there something else Valpo is paying in that article that I'm not seeing?

Quote from: JD24 on February 05, 2019, 11:29:37 AM

Quote from: valpolaw on February 05, 2019, 06:42:35 AMThe case settled with valpo paying the horizon league something according to the article. That's why it was dismissed. We will probably never know what valpo paid unless someone has someone in the know. I assume there was a confidentiality agreement.

The article says both sides pay for their own court costs. Is there something else Valpo is paying in that article that I'm not seeing?

I believe we are reading into the statement about a settlement being made and thinking it means some sort of payment. IMO not necessarily so.


"Valparaiso University is pleased that it reached a settlement with the Horizon League," Niemi said.

Quote from: VUBBFan on February 05, 2019, 11:37:24 AM

Quote from: JD24 on February 05, 2019, 11:29:37 AM

Quote from: valpolaw on February 05, 2019, 06:42:35 AMThe case settled with valpo paying the horizon league something according to the article. That's why it was dismissed. We will probably never know what valpo paid unless someone has someone in the know. I assume there was a confidentiality agreement.

The article says both sides pay for their own court costs. Is there something else Valpo is paying in that article that I'm not seeing?

I believe we are reading into the statement about a settlement being made and thinking it means some sort of payment. IMO not necessarily so.
"Valparaiso University is pleased that it reached a settlement with the Horizon League," Niemi said.

In my experience, the term "settlement" is typically used when payment of some sort is made.  If no payments are made, the term "dismissal" is more commonly used.  However, I doubt we'll ever know the outcome as the settlement likely includes a confidentiality agreement and the university made it clear they would have no further comments.

I am sure glad that this and the Horizon league are behind us now.

To me, "settlement" means one side paid the other something to settle the case. They wouldn't go to mediation and settle for nothing essentially. If I had to take a guess, I'd say valpo paid a much smaller amount to get it over with. Maybe a cost of defense plus a small fee to the horizon league. It's often cheaper to settle than continue litigating. That's all a guess though and I'm sure there's a confidentiality clause so we will likely never know.

Quote from: VALPO LI on February 05, 2019, 01:09:09 PM
I am sure glad that this and the Horizon league are behind us now.

With the settlement behind us, maybe we'll see some Horizon teams on the non-conference schedule going forward.  Before people laugh, the upper half of the Horizon would be a significant upgrade to the non-DI and 300+ KenPom teams that Valpo played this year.  In particular, I think WSU and NKU should be teams Valpo calls immediately.

QuoteWith the settlement behind us, maybe we'll see some Horizon teams on the non-conference schedule going forward.  Before people laugh, the upper half of the Horizon would be a significant upgrade to the non-DI and 300+ KenPom teams that Valpo played this year.  In particular, I think WSU and NKU should be teams Valpo calls immediately.

I think that depends entirely on which schools were pushing the lawsuit. I'm pretty sure VU knows which schools they are and those won't be on the schedule anytime soon. And if it was a unanimous decision among HL schools to sue us, then I still say screw them.

Teams I'd like to see VU try to play: Oakland, UIC, Green Bay, Milwaukee and Wright State.
No excuse not to get those guys on a home and home (not in the same season). 2 or 3 schools per season. Or 4. Two home, two away each year.

Theres no use of the word settlement in the court papers. It was dismissed with prejudice (cant be filed again) and each side had to pay their own attorney fees. While it's likely there was a settlement of some sort, not a necessity. Whatever happened in mediation wont ever see the light of day. Regardless, the Horizon League era is now completely in the rear view mirror. Cheers.

Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 05, 2019, 02:30:07 PM
I think that depends entirely on which schools were pushing the lawsuit. I'm pretty sure VU knows which schools they are and those won't be on the schedule anytime soon. And if it was a unanimous decision among HL schools to sue us, then I still say screw them.

I totally agree with this take ... why do a favor for a Horizon League school who was in favor of suing you??

If you recall, the Horizon also took a shot at Butler on their way out of the league, voting to make them ineligible for league championships in '12-'13 and resulting in them leaving a year early.  https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/butler-joining-a-10-this-fall-instead-of-2013/ (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/butler-joining-a-10-this-fall-instead-of-2013/)

Butler knows which schools initiated and voted in favor of that move and I doubt that Butler MBB will be playing those schools (voluntarily, at least) for a long time, if ever.  I'm totally in favor of that decision.

QuoteIf you recall, the Horizon also took a shot at Butler on their way out of the league, voting to make them ineligible for league championships in '12-'13 and resulting in them leaving a year early.  https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/butler-joining-a-10-this-fall-instead-of-2013/

That's the Butler version of the story. The actual story was that the HL wanted simply make them ineligible to *host* any league championships in their lame-duck year, which is a much more modest and some would say fair request. But Butler wasn't going to countenance having to give up playing at Hinkle, so they left.

Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 06, 2019, 01:47:58 PM

QuoteIf you recall, the Horizon also took a shot at Butler on their way out of the league, voting to make them ineligible for league championships in '12-'13 and resulting in them leaving a year early.  https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/butler-joining-a-10-this-fall-instead-of-2013/

That's the Butler version of the story. The actual story was that the HL wanted simply make them ineligible to *host* any league championships in their lame-duck year, which is a much more modest and some would say fair request. But Butler wasn't going to countenance having to give up playing at Hinkle, so they left.

I've never heard your version before, but whether your story, the CBS Sports story or something in between is the "actual story", I'll stick to my position that I'm fine not scheduling any school that was in support of whatever those sanctions were, just like you're in favor of Valpo not scheduling schools that were supportive of the Horizon's lawsuit against Valpo.  There are roughly 340 DI schools outside of each team's conference ... finding 12 or 13 non-conference opponents that haven't tried to harm your program shouldn't be that hard.

In hindsight, things worked out fine for both programs.  In 2013, Valpo won the league and played in the NCAA tourney and Butler, after getting away from Valpo, was also able to get back to the tournament.  Win win situation.

It's hard to argue that both programs benefited from the situation it just sucks that it cost us the rivalry possibly forever.

Does this sound vaguely familiar?  lol

https://twitter.com/dontribunesport/status/1095422873244708865

So glad we are out of the HL. Seems like the administration thinks they can do anything they want regardless of rules. This is not looking out for the benefit of the member teams. It seems like it's looking out for the personal control/status of the league officials

Great long-term league health strategy LeCrone. Piss off your flagship league members. Again.

First, they bungle Butler's exit.

Then they work systemically to piss off Valpo by taking away the best thing about being a member for a cash grab nobody wanted and no fans supported.

Then they ramrod IUPUI down the league's throat when objectively better options (Fort Wayne Robert Morris) were available

Then they go and do this to NKU (and to a lesser extent Wright State). NKU can't use BB&T but IUPUI using Farmers is just dandy by them.

This is a tremendous look to present to potential member schools. "Come join our league and if you get good but you're too small or too far from our league offices we'll do everything in our power to undermine and impede your growth and development as a program." I'm sure schools are just begging them to come visit and admit them. You honestly think USI or Bellarmine are going to bother with this conference if they move up after seeing how badly NKU just got jobbed? I don't think so.

Time for the MVC to pounce. Get two quality members (NKU and Murray State) into a conference that will appreciate and value them and foster their growth as they try to take their programs to the next level and offer them a fair "wha you see is what you get" deal where everyone knows what they signed up for.

In contrast to the fair-minded Doug Elgin here's how LeCrone treats his member institutions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsW9MlYu31g

Quote from: zvillehaze on February 06, 2019, 03:33:17 PM

Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 06, 2019, 01:47:58 PM

QuoteIf you recall, the Horizon also took a shot at Butler on their way out of the league, voting to make them ineligible for league championships in '12-'13 and resulting in them leaving a year early.  https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/butler-joining-a-10-this-fall-instead-of-2013/

That's the Butler version of the story. The actual story was that the HL wanted simply make them ineligible to *host* any league championships in their lame-duck year, which is a much more modest and some would say fair request. But Butler wasn't going to countenance having to give up playing at Hinkle, so they left.

I've never heard your version before, but whether your story, the CBS Sports story or something in between is the "actual story", I'll stick to my position that I'm fine not scheduling any school that was in support of whatever those sanctions were, just like you're in favor of Valpo not scheduling schools that were supportive of the Horizon's lawsuit against Valpo.  There are roughly 340 DI schools outside of each team's conference ... finding 12 or 13 non-conference opponents that haven't tried to harm your program shouldn't be that hard.

In hindsight, things worked out fine for both programs.  In 2013, Valpo won the league and played in the NCAA tourney and Butler, after getting away from Valpo, was also able to get back to the tournament.  Win win situation.

If Valpo voted to keep Butler out of the HL tournament (or from hosting), I can see how Butler could use that as an excuse to not play them now. That said, the only reason Butler was willing to fulfill the terms of its agreement with the HL was because the A-10 didn't want to take them until the folllowing year. Otherwise, they would have dropped the HL like a bad habit - with or without the penalty. So, 1 of 2 things was going to happen all along -either Butler was going to leave early for self serving reasons, or the HL was going to force their hand to leave early for their own self serving reasons of not having a lame duck member show up the league on its way out the door. There are no innocent little lambs here.

Sad days for the Horizon League when a beat reporter openly stumps for moving to the A-Sun.

https://twitter.com/PhearThePhoenix/status/1095528411576131585

Well maybe LeCrone should say what he means and mean what he says for once. That would be a refreshing change. I'm surprised the presidents  haven't called for his ouster. Maybe alienating and losing NKU would be the final straw. It's not THAT the conference has declined. That's happening all over the midmajor landscape. It's the incompetent dare I say deceitful way he goes about running things. The fact that Valpo felt as though they had enough to levy a counterclaim in what should have been a simple matter should have been embarrassing enough but now we have  this tournament debacle that has NKU longing for the Atlantic Freaking Sun. It's just a terrible look. He comes off as petty deceptive incompetent and stupid simultaneously. If I were an AD or a president at an HL member institution I would be beyond embarrassed to have this man speaking on my behalf. What a shameful clown show that league has become.

Some chatter on Twitter last night that GB and Detroit's ADs were reportedly as furious over this as NKU is. (And rightfully so! The HL office straight-up lied to their member institutions about the selection criteria for the choosing the location for the conference's biggest event!) That's two schools away from being able to have LeCrone replaced. His Indy fetish is going to be his undoing, which is pretty fitting, IMO.

My dislike of LeCrone is well documented on here, but the fact that he tried to pull something like this and thought none of his member schools would notice is particularly jaw-dropping.

Lecrone? Horizon?

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3o84sv2u7KSHKbwPza/giphy.gif)

Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 13, 2019, 02:00:44 PMMy dislike of LeCrone is well documented on here, but the fact that he tried to pull something like this and thought none of his member schools would notice is particularly jaw-dropping.

I'm actually not that surprised by LeCrone's Indy fetish.   :-[   8-)   :thumbsup:

Nothing wrong with Indy. It's pleasant enough as middle-tier cities go. But a commissioner screwing over 9 other institutions that pay his salary to keep himself comfy and unfairly advantage the local institution (not for the first time)? Well, that's a bold strategy, Cotton.