Let's bring it to the Raiders and squash their Nutter Center hopes.
Valpo 74
Wright St 70
Tough game, but we can do it!
Valpo 67
WSU 64
A very big and extremely difficult game tomorrow and nobody seems to want to talk about it. ???
The same game plan we used in Jan didn't work then and has even less of a chance of working now. I am expecting to see a lot of new wrinkles designed to give us some high percentage 2 point shots which may then open up some inside out 3 point looks. If we can hold our turnovers under 14 and take good shots we should be able to make it a contest. This could be as big a test of our coaching staff as it will be of our team development. On the other hand will Bryce try to keep some new looks under wraps for the HL tournament?
I will go out on a limb and say we blow the out of their own gym, yes my dislike for WSU may have played a part in this prediction. I don't think Pacher can do us over again, man I don't like that guy. I will say 77-60. My wife says Valpo 73-68.
I really do think we will have a good showing in this one. I really don't think they'll be able to control us under the rim again. Vashil has been playing much better and should give Pacher tons of problems. If we can force them to shoot threes I like our chances. Also LVD probably had his worst game of the season in the first meeting and Alec as well had an awful game.
I think we win this one, Us 75, them 68.
This game has me so nervous. Unfortunately I think we lose a low scoring heartbreaker 61-59. Hope the team proves me wrong.
This will be a very difficult win for us. First, they are celebrating Senior Night for five guys--kind of like our team from last year. Next, they are at home before a big crowd. Then they have as much to play for as we do. I see a tight game going their way, 59-55. :(
I do not think we can win this game unless Moussa, Vashil, and Capo can turn the 5 position into SCORING position. They put a lot of pressure on the guards, so we can't win without it. If they have not learned to post up in the last 3 days, they better get a bunch of offensive rebounds for put backs.
Results from this game depends on the ref's calling the hand checks and blocks on the perimeter. WSU has guards that will try and force turnovers and contest 3 point shots. These guards will do do this for the entire game and even defend several feet out from the arch.
Solutions: to WSU defense would be to establish a post game and try to spread them out.
Prediction: We know we have to win this, VU will get it done.
Questions: Lots of games yet to be played that will settle this question. If we lose, the highest seed we will receive is a 4 and guaranteed host 1st round? GB, CSU, WSU will finish ahead of us with no potential of Milwaukee, YSU, Oakland or Detroit finishing above us.
Looking forward to tonight!! A little nervous but excited. I think Jerran Young's ability to penetrate and help defend down low with his current shoulder pains will dictate how this game goes unless WSU guards are shooting lights out from the perimeter.
Quote from: HC on February 24, 2014, 08:09:25 PM
I will go out on a limb and say we blow the out of their own gym, yes my dislike for WSU may have played a part in this prediction.
Why the dislike for WSU? I thought we were all friends?! ;D
LOL, I can't put my finger on my dislike of your team. Somethings just rub me the wrong the way for no good reason I guess! I think it's mostly your coach and his mannerisms (which I'm sure Bryce does some of the same things, but that doesn't count). :thumbsup:
The only issue I have with WSU is the inexplicably weak OOC schedule that your staff put together. But that's old news at this point. Other than that I have a high regard for your program.
I love you guys! I'm fond of neither our coach nor our schedule!! Love the program and my school though!
Quote from: Goraiders93 on February 25, 2014, 02:16:14 PM
I love you guys! I'm fond of neither our coach nor our schedule!! Love the program and my school though!
Do you expect a rebuilding year next year with the departure of five seniors?
I think if the Horizon League refs think they're B1G TEN refs, we're going to lose. Too much shoving, grabbing, hand checks, physical play for our big men and guards to handle. If we get to use our size and they call contact on our big men/penetrators, we will win this game. We always get a quick whistle from the tube men arms swinging wildly and in return never get down low contact called because of the size mismatch.
Two of the three officials tonight are Big10 refs so..... :(
The line opened with us as a 5 point dog, now down to 3.
Just a friendly reminder that the chat room is open and available for in game discussion! :thumbsup:
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?board=13.0 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?board=13.0)
This game is an absolute travesty. We better start flopping and flailing all over the place. It didn't work against power-houses like North Carolina A&T, but I guess with Horizon League refs they treat everyone like LeBron. The elbow from Clay and that last charge on Dority were some of the worst calls of the year. A charge this year when he never at any point had two feet on the ground at the same time? What a joke. These Horizon League games are just brutal to watch.
The boys haven't helped with some really boneheaded plays thus far.
Some real dumb plays and they are letting WSU play physical on ball D, we better adjust or it's going to get ugly.
So...much...stupid in this first half. deja vu from the last time out against WSU.
Valpo can't make any worse decisions with the ball and we are only down 9. A decent 2nd half and we can win.
Some really dumb plays but somehow we're only down 3 scores. If we can cut this to a 4 or 5 point lead before the first TV timeout, I like our chances. Need to quit the stupid turnovers and fouls.
Let's give a little credit to WSU's defense. They are all over us. The refs are Big 10 so aren't exactly hacks. No question there were some questionable shots, but think about it, we have been able to try what? Maybe 3 3's? That is their defense. We have hope for the second half but are going up against five seniors on their home court on Senior Night. Can't draw up a much tougher scenario.
Bobby needs to sit the rest of the game after that.....what was that inbounds pass!
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Well that didn't go well. At lest we get to see our team at home an extra time this year.
Kudos for not giving up. Pacher's 3 was an absolute dagger. Get 'em in the tournament.
I barely contained my rage at the Lexus "charge". To me, the turning point of the game, though I did not watch for long before then. If my parents, wife, and baby hadn't been in the room...
If I were as good with video as I am with numbers, I would make a gif of the play, and you could compare it with the B1G refs calling 2 blocking fouls on Jordan Morgan on Sunday, for example, who had actually been there long enough to obtain squatters' rights, and was still whistled.
That was a 3 point play turned into nothing.
Then, to add insult to injury, I began to explain to my father how bad we were at -- and then they threw the ball away -- TURNOVERS.
I hate losing, but I hate losing to crappy schools like Wright State more.
I only had issues with 2 fouls on us, the one where Clay didn't even touch the defender yet the drama queen guarding him acted like he was shot, and one of the screens by Moussa where the defender ran into him. If Moussa is set and doesn't stick anything out to catch the guy running by, it is NOT a foul. Just because he got his clock cleaned on a clean screen, doesn't mean you bail the guy out. How can we be expected to set legal screens if they still call a foul on us when we do accomplish this rare feat?
All in all, we did fight throughout the game, but made some absolutely boneheaded turnovers that had nothing to do with the defense. Yes, some of it was due to the defense, but I can think of 7 or 8 where we just ran ourselves into easy double teams, and had to make a stupid pass hoping the receiver would know which direction we were passing it to him. I do enjoy seeing Dority trying to drive and make those shots, but there comes a time where you can't take on 2 or 3 guys doing such things. He gets tunnel vision sometimes, and doesn't even think to kick it out to an open guy, rather settling for getting blocked.
No chance for a 2 seed now. Only hope for a 3 seed is if WSU somehow loses at UIC, and we beat CSU at home.
Stupid unforced turnovers killed us today. We had our chances but through it away, literally. Like others have pointed out there were probably 8 or so occasions where we through the ball to a ghost.
I hate playing teams in their court on senior night. Almost like you're playing against an extra man. Pacher definitely came through and was the reason why they won tonight. He was the best player on the floor and was the difference maker in tonight's game.
Hopefully WSU will lay an egg against UIC and we take down CSU who's looked vulnerable as of late and get the three seed.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on February 25, 2014, 08:10:26 PM
I hate losing, but I hate losing to crappy schools like Wright State more.
Ouch.
Also, I don't get why we play behind the 3 point line so much on defense. We seemed to beg Arceneaux and Pacher to shoot wide open 3s when we played 5+ feet off of them. When Pacher received that last one, I was yelling 'get out on him' to Vashil, because he has obviously shown he wants to shoot those shots. I don't care what his percentage might be, as if you are left that open, it's like taking a shot in practice when at home.
Quote from: Goraiders93 on February 25, 2014, 08:22:16 PMOuch.
No, sorry, you're not a crappy school. I meant "team" not "school". Certainly don't want to demean an entire institution of higher learning.
Unless it's Michigan State.
It was mentioned a few times earlier this season on this board that the obvious change in blocking/charging calls this year would help our guards. However, in the Green Bay game Dority, Williams, and Carter played 64 minutes and drew zero foul shots. In tonight's game the trio played 78 minutes and drew only 1 foul on a Dority drive with 2 minutes left in the game. That adds up to 142 minutes of our guards driving to the basket and getting knocked around pretty hard with only 1 foul to show for it.
I am not saying that is why we lost. Wright State played well, and turnovers are still the main problem for Valpo. However, it is clear that the refs are not calling the games now the way they did earlier in the season. Had the calls been the same as earlier in the season, it would have helped Valpo in these last two losses. That inconsistency in officiating is frustrating and inexcusable.
The one that bothers me the most is that they don't call the offensive player sticking his arm out to gain space anymore. They called that earlier in the season, but are just letting guys push off to gain space. We shot ourselves in the foot with the 20 turnovers, not as much the fouls in this one.
Overall, even if we end up with the 4 seed, we will still have ended up in a tie for third place if we beat CSU! Our records will show a third place finish with the most FR playing of any HL team. Hopefully our guys have learned enough this season to realize that YOU WANT TO KEEP THE BALL, AND NOT GIVE IT TO THE OTHER TEAM 15-20 TIMES EVERY GAME!!!!!!!!
I still have no idea how a guard can outmuscle a 7'0"-245 lb. Center in tie up situations. I have seen that in several games where Moussa looks like a little kid just handing the ball to someone.
Quote from: valpopal on February 25, 2014, 08:29:44 PMThat adds up to 142 minutes of our guards driving to the basket and getting knocked around pretty hard with only 1 foul to show for it.
I am not saying that is why we lost. Wright State played well, and turnovers are still the main problem for Valpo. However, it is clear that the refs are not calling the games now the way they did earlier in the season. Had the calls been the same as earlier in the season, it would have helped Valpo in these last two losses. That inconsistency in officiating is frustrating and inexcusable.
I wish to cosign this perspicacious ponderance of penetrating profundity.
Look at the box score, and it's obvious we should have won...we outshot them; made the same number of 3PT; despite the foul discrepancy we did not shoot a corresponding ratio of fewer FT; outrebounded; outassisted...
...until you see the 20 freakin' turnovers. -7 on differential. When you're like, well, 'only 7 net' then I think you should know that the game was what, 60 possessions? That's 11% of the game we farted away.
Kyle, I have one question for you to ask of Bryce next HL media day. Just one. You can probably guess.
Tex, you need to watch a replay of the Lexus "charge" if you thought it was valid. I don't even know that it would have been valid LAST YEAR.
I think I remember that one, but not sure, so I didn't count it. Is that the one that went in, after he ran into the defender who wasn't totally square to him just below the FT line? I think it was Sledge?
We had it down to 4 with a good amount of time left in the second half, and ended up pissing away the chance to close further with consecutive turnovers. It makes it so frustrating to see us get so close in many games, only to see us throw the ball away.
Quote from: valpopal on February 25, 2014, 08:29:44 PMIt was mentioned a few times earlier this season on this board that the obvious change in blocking/charging calls this year would help our guards. However, in the Green Bay game Dority, Williams, and Carter played 64 minutes and drew zero foul shots. In tonight's game the trio played 78 minutes and drew only 1 foul on a Dority drive with 2 minutes left in the game. That adds up to 142 minutes of our guards driving to the basket and getting knocked around pretty hard with only 1 foul to show for it. I am not saying that is why we lost. Wright State played well, and turnovers are still the main problem for Valpo. However, it is clear that the refs are not calling the games now the way they did earlier in the season. Had the calls been the same as earlier in the season, it would have helped Valpo in these last two losses. That inconsistency in officiating is frustrating and inexcusable.
The key to Valpo winning these games would have been for Coach Drew to make adjustments when it became evident the refs were not going to call (what seemed like obvious fouls to me) fouls on these drives and change the offense to find another way to score. Good, experienced teams find a way to win by adjusting.
It shouldn't have to have been that way with the refs not making obvious foul calls but it happens to many good teams and they learn to adjust in order to win.
Quote from: historyman on February 25, 2014, 09:24:44 PMCoach Drew to make adjustments
Yeah, I always get down on him after a loss, because *HERESY ALERT* I don't think he's as good a coach yet as he needs/is going to be. But he's good for now and getting better.
The only counter I can think of to your argument is that that's just what we do (bread & butter) but that's simply not true. there are a number of ways we can go at it.
it is, however, so shocking that perhaps we are optimistic or naive enough to believe that since this is a couple standard deviations away from how the games were called earlier, that they must at some point get back with the times, and all will be right with the world again?
If I gave enough of a flip about WSU I would go back and look at the box scores of all their embarrassing losses and try to conclude whether that was because back then all the refs were GUNG HO about the new rules and actually calling them on it.
Well the stupid turnovers were the reason we lost tonight. The TO margin should've been about even if you take away the stupid throwaways, and in a 3-4 possession game, take those away and we probably win.
Overall I thought the adjustments were made, we shot the ball at 46% tonight, which is pretty good against a very stingy defense. Like I said before stupid turnovers were the reason why we lost, it wasn't because Bryce didn't make adjustments because he did.
I also thought Keith Carter had another really nice game and is starting to look like the player people were describing early on. He just needs to get some rhythm in his shooting and he will be incredibly dangerous.
Quote from: classof2014 on February 25, 2014, 09:50:09 PMWell the stupid turnovers were the reason we lost tonight. The TO margin should've been about even if you take away the stupid throwaways, and in a 3-4 possession game, take those away and we probably win. Overall I thought the adjustments were made, we shot the ball at 46% tonight, which is pretty good against a very stingy defense. Like I said before stupid turnovers were the reason why we lost, it wasn't because Bryce didn't make adjustments because he did. I also thought Keith Carter had another really nice game and is starting to look like the player people were describing early on. He just needs to get some rhythm in his shooting and he will be incredibly dangerous.
142 minutes with a bunch of drives to the basket by our guards and they draw one foul. What adjustment do you feel was made to combat this issue?
The officiating was terrible both ways tonight, having been there and pretty close to most of the calls.
Seems refs are letting guys take a bit of contact going to hoop recently. Oh well. I hope that's the last time we face AJ Pacher, I'm not going to miss that guy.
Quote from: DY219 on February 25, 2014, 07:20:12 PMBobby needs to sit the rest of the game after that.....what was that inbounds pass!
Bobby was out of control as he caught the ball made a quick pivot and was falling in bounds before the desperation pass. Bobby tonight went from hero to goat, then hero to goat on each alternating possession. For us to have a chance to win he needed to play well.
Quote from: vu72 on February 25, 2014, 07:01:43 PMLet's give a little credit to WSU's defense. They are all over us. The refs are Big 10 so aren't exactly hacks.
Yes their defense was very good but our game plan did produce some high quality 2 point shots (which was taking what WSU gave us). The same kinds of turnovers that have killed us all season killed us again tonight. Without having seen the game replay my initial assessment of the referee crew is that they may have made more obvious mistakes tonight than were made at Green Bay and I know how you folks loved those guys up there.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on February 25, 2014, 08:28:50 PMIt was mentioned a few times earlier this season on this board that the obvious change in blocking/charging calls this year would help our guards. However, in the Green Bay game Dority, Williams, and Carter played 64 minutes and drew zero foul shots. In tonight's game the trio played 78 minutes and drew only 1 foul on a Dority drive with 2 minutes left in the game. That adds up to 142 minutes of our guards driving to the basket and getting knocked around pretty hard with only 1 foul to show for it.
For a while it did help our guards then everybody realized that Vashil and Moussa do not have jump shots or post moves and Jubril is not a good 3 point shooter. As a result the lane keeps getting more and more crowded. As of late it appears as if the refs are refusing to call any blocking fouls when a guard goes to the hole one on two or one on three unless the blocking call is obvious. LaVonte has yet to adjust.
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 25, 2014, 11:26:32 AMThese guards will do do this for the entire game and even defend several feet out from the arch.
The park rangers at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial were happy this happened. The Arch grounds are closed in the evening and do doing near the arch is illegal. Unless of course you had meant near the local McDonalds in Fairborn,OH. Ask Bryan Bouchie what happens when doing bodily functions near a McDonalds. ;)
I think both teams committed about 30 fouls. Seriously, this was an extremely physical game; they let a lot of things go for both teams. That said, I am not sure how we ended up with 9 more fouls than them.
Positives:
Bryce made great 2nd half adjustments. We had some great double screens in the low post, back door cuts, tricky fake screen and rolls or pops, etc. It was also obvious that he emphasized quick rotation of the ball. If you think Bryce did a bad job coaching today you did not watch the same game I did. It is not his fault the kids threw about 8 passes out of bounce for no good reason, but they needed to make quick decisions/passes to find gaps in the defense.
This was our best game against 40 minutes of pressure defense. We have played SOOOO BADLY against a full 40 minutes of pressure. We were in this game with 4 minutes to go, we found ways to get some easy points in the 2nd half, and we were about 5 fewer mental errors and 3 bad calls away from having a real chance to win. I will take this as positive.
Quote from: bbtds on February 26, 2014, 04:12:28 AMAsk Bryan Bouchie what happens when doing bodily functions near a McDonalds.
Gosh it's good to have you back.
Quote from: justducky on February 25, 2014, 10:54:49 PMFor a while it did help our guards
I just wanted to point out that for whatever reason the board says the post you quoted was me, but it was historyman with the observation you quoted. Credit where credit is due.
Also, friends, one last time because it's good for a laugh:
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1421.msg32585#msg32585 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1421.msg32585#msg32585)
Quote from: a3uge on February 25, 2014, 03:36:09 PM
I think if the Horizon League refs think they're B1G TEN refs, we're going to lose. Too much shoving, grabbing, hand checks, physical play for our big men and guards to handle. If we get to use our size and they call contact on our big men/penetrators, we will win this game. We always get a quick whistle from the tube men arms swinging wildly and in return never get down low contact called because of the size mismatch.
^
While I won't say WSU had the benefit of more calls, but the way the refs called the game helped Wright State's style of play. Valpo is big on getting to the line, penetrating, and kicking for 3, while Wright State plays more of a boring swing offense. I feel the turnover stats are inflated due to the amount of offensive fouls and steals on drives. Combine bonehead plays and the game is a disaster. We were still in the game because Wright State isn't that talented.
All of those charge calls should have been blocks last year as well. Sliding under players and flopping all while the offensive player is mid air isn't good for the game. Especially when there's a clear path to the lane that should result in an easy basket if the defensive player plays actual defense. They eliminated the charging/blocking flopping problem by saying "when in doubt call a block" and then put it right back in. We're back at square 1. Very frustrating.
Quote from: a3uge on February 26, 2014, 02:09:52 PMThey eliminated the charging/blocking flopping problem by saying "when in doubt call a block" and then put it right back in. We're back at square 1. Very frustrating.
For the most part the entire HL season has been called under the 12-13 interpretations. Some of the handchecking now gets called but the charge vs block is exactly as you have stated. What might have been a big advantage for us suddenly disapeared when the effects of its implementation were fully understood. I do not look for this to be discussed in the future and anticipate the charge vs block status quo as the new and "old" normal.
I actually thought that game was officiated much more competently than the Green Bay game. There were a couple of calls I absolutely disagreed with that hurt Valpo, but there were a couple of times I thought we got away with something as well.
Quote from: StlVUFan on February 28, 2014, 02:45:04 PMthere were a couple of times I thought we got away with something as well
the ones i saw were indeed pretty blatant, but clearly 'make-ups' for stuff that had just happened on the other end.
Watching WSU @ UIC right now, need a UIC win.
Is it just me or does Packer just lower his head and drives to the basketball. If our bigs did that, it would be offensive foul. He lowers his shoulder and hits the whole like a running back.