Interesting article in the NWI Times about a $115 Million sports/entertainment arena in the preliminary planning stage for somewhere in Porter County. Also interesting that the guy spearheading it is a VU alum.
Group proposes sports/entertainment arena for Porter County
2
10 hours ago • Joyce Russell joyce.russell@nwi.com, (219) 762-1397, ext. 2222
CHESTERTON | Paul Boardman believes Porter County would be the ideal location for a state-of-the-art arena to host sporting and entertainment events.
Boardman, the CEO of IG Company, founded Duneland Family Sports and Entertainment, a division of Duneland Sports Authority, a year ago. The nonprofit, Boardman said, has been looking at the feasibility of constructing and professionally operating a privately funded multi-purpose sports and entertainment venue.
"It goes back to my senior year in 1983 as a business major at Valparaiso University. I am passionate about economic development and I've actually been thinking about ways to help our economy," said the LaPorte native.
The demographics say Porter County is the perfect place for such a venue. There is no such arena serving the 800,000 residents of Northwest Indiana, Boardman said. The closest facilities are in Chicago and South Bend.
Boardman said he envisions a state-of-the-art facility that will be LEED platinum certified, not only generating its own power, but generating excess power giving a zero-plus effect on the environment. It would contract with local vendors and retain financial resources and revenue in the community.
While Boardman issued a press release Tuesday on the proposal, when contacted, he did not release specific details. He said the arena would be located in Porter County and a site plan is being developed. He would not give the names of any others working with him on the project or investing in the arena, nor would he estimate an exact time frame for the construction of the facility.
Boardman said that information would be "forthcoming." He said it would take 12 months to complete architectural drawings.
"I started spearheading this nine months ago," he said. "I am passionate about it. It will provide quality entertainment."
Boardman did estimate the project would be a $115 million investment in the region and would provide 250 immediate jobs and 1,500 long-term jobs.
Lorelei Weimer, executive director of Indiana Dunes Tourism, said she has met with Boardman.
"To know there is a plan for a private arena that would be privately funded is exciting," she said.
Here is the entire press release with far more information than the Times article:
September 3, 2013
News Release
CHESTERTON, Ind. - Duneland Family Sports and Entertainment, a division of Duneland Sports Authority, an Indiana non-profit Corporation, has positively concluded a six month feasibility study entitled Game ON! DSA aims to construct and professionally operate a multi-purpose sports and entertainment venue in Northwest Indiana, Porter County, currently entitled Duneland Arena. Duneland Family Sports and Entertainment was established in 2012 to determine the feasibility of constructing and successfully operating a multi-purpose professionally managed state of the art LEED platinum toward net-plus family friendly multi-purpose entertainment and sports venue. This project is led, owned and operated by non-profit Duneland Family Sports and Entertainment. DSA's mission is to: Build and operate a multi-purpose venue that is LEED platinum toward net-plus, sustainable, green, ethical and transparent. Provide family-friendly entertainment and sports to Northwest Indiana and greater Chicagoland.
Some features will include: Contract with local venders and retain financial resources and revenues in the community. Source personnel locally through educational career conduits. Source concessions with a local supply-chain. Support local sports initiatives with revenues above operating costs. Headquartered in Chesterton, Indiana, DSA is led by Founder and Chairman Paul Boardman. Together with a consortium of local, state and national interested parties, DSA will closely coordinate regarding key strategic decisions on capital partnerships, target markets, and new projects.
"Duneland Arena will be the first arena to achieve LEED platinum certification. LEED platinum is a good starting goal. We will push the design envelope toward net-plus closing the gap of hypothetical to commercialization. Duneland Arena, a state of the art LEED platinum-net plus facility, will be a landmark destination economic catalyst estimated to create 250 immediate jobs and 1,500 long-term jobs. Game ON! is in line with Northwest Indiana's 2030 economic and quality of life initiative goals to create a global model high output green manufacturing and high quality of life Northwest Indiana community," said Mr. Boardman.
DSA combines its breath of talent and background and will seek private capital for Duneland Arena. DSA's initiative will foster additional development and investment opportunities for investment partners. DSA is combining strengths to allow partnerships with a consortium of Northwest Indiana organizations to significantly expand economic growth, sports and entertainment. In addition, Game ON! offers exciting new opportunities for investors to partner in this development long-term which is focused on community-enhancing economic development in thriving and forward-looking Northwest Indiana.
Northwest Indiana is the second largest populous community in Indiana next to Indianapolis. Game ON! is positioned for Duneland Arena to provide as many as 120 events per calendar year ranging from concerts to professional and amateur sports. Duneland Arena, as America's first LEED platinum toward net-plus venue in its class, conceived, designed and built multi-purpose venue represents a significant step forward for Northwest Indiana and America's sustainable goals.
"As a minimum goal, Duneland Arena will be the first LEED platinum arena. This is a significant challenge that requires thorough LEED platinum design and integration from concept to use. In addition, attempts will be made to achieve net-plus status," Mr. Boardman stated.
As background, energy-plus or net-plus building produces more energy from renewable energy sources, over the course of a year, than it imports from external sources. DSA is the current lead for Duneland Arena project Game ON! This includes a hands on role to develop locally owned professional sports franchises. In addition to its investment leading Game On!, DSA will partner with commercial real estate developers to ensure adequate accommodations. Total Northwest Indiana investment including Duneland Arena and accommodations is estimated at $115 million.
"DSA's vision and execution is well-positioned to be an enduring supplier of opportunity to Northwest Indiana," said Mr. Boardman of DSA. "Our overall approach is to do the right thing for our citizens. Our goal is to provide excellent entertainment value and bring resources into our community. We are looking forward to a landmark venue contextual to the natural beauty of the Lake Michigan duneland shore that leads arena technology." Mr. Boardman added.
Project Game ON! represents Stewardship that is: Green, Sustainable, Locally Sourced, Transparent and Ethical. To ensure these goals are met, DSA is partnering with established leading LEED architects, planners, engineers, researchers and universities to ensure a fully integrated state of the art venue from concept to use. "We have a vision for long-term landmark development, investment, management that serves our community," said Mr. Boardman.
Game ON! is family friendly sports and entertainment with representative events such as: College, high school, youth hockey, soccer, la crosse, basketball, sports tournaments and a growing list of sports- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports.) Family friendly concerts, dog shows, circus, Disney, Sesame, ice capades, community events, trade shows, corporate, religious and cultural events. DSA brand will denote the best-in-class Northwest Indiana sports and entertainment platform, and we believe this combination has unmatched potential to develop a stellar portfolio addressing our communities sports and entertainment needs.
This is a logical succession of what the DSA leadership started generations ago while returning to its roots as a long-term family friendly operation that allows it to maintain deep ties to the community it serves. History unites DSA leadership with a six generational history in Northwest Indiana since the mid 19th century. The shared vision is reflected in DSA's leadership. With highly-specialized expertise in food-beverage, entertainment, sports, project management, LEED, local needs and partnering, DSA has the breadth and strength to envision and successfully execute project Game ON! for Northwest Indiana and greater Chicagoland.
DSA gains further competitive capabilities through its national capital markets scope, access and knowledge. "DSA has the flexibility and resources to lead a LEED platinum-net plus design team and manage a team of facility professionals while taking advantage of new opportunities, with a view to the long term," Mr. Boardman noted.
DSA will capitalize for our community on substantial location advantages and opportunities as a crossroads of America to bring best-in-class sports and entertainment. Porter County is situated 65 miles from approximately 11 million residents and 150 miles from approximately 15 million residents. In addition to serving local needs, Duneland Arena's proposed capacities provide growth and an economic development opportunity with: Concerts: 5,300 (half-house), 6,400 (3/4 house) 7,790 (End-stage) 10,350 (center-stage) Basketball: 9,000 Ice Hockey: 8,400 (9,200 with standing room). Duneland Sports Authority is an Indiana non-profit corporation doing business as Duneland Family Sports and Entertainemnt. Duneland Family Sports and Entertainment was established in 2012 with a mission to construct and successfully operate a multi-purpose professionally managed state of the art LEED platinum toward net- plus family friendly entertainment and sports venue. This project is led, owned and operated by Duneland Family Sports and Entertainment.
Source: Duneland Sports Authority Inc.
Well, it sounds like any chance the University had at a joint venture with the city/county is now gone. This arena would never be built in Valpo......am I wrong? Chesteron makes more logical sense since it has better freeway access.
Interesting. But I can't say I have a whole lot of faith in people to pull off a nine-figure project when they can't pull off a press release without multiple grammatical and spelling errors. (I mean, heck, I grow tired of them on here, and we're just a message board. Although clearly I let it slide on the discussion of the upcoming schedule.)
VU men's basketball would have to be the anchor, as there aren't going to be a whole lot of concerts on a docket, what with Chicago nearby for good groups, and eight dozen casinos already regularly bringing in "the NEW Creedence Clearwater Revisited featuring Bowser from Sha Na Na!" and the like.
So if VU doesn't want to do business with them, they're sunk. What are they going to fill it with?
If an arena was built any further than a reasonable walk for VU students it would be a terrible move for the university to move there. Having our arena in Chesterton will kill all student interest. The only games I could see happening there would possibly be the occasional game over a break. Other than that it'd be an awful move for the university.
Quote from: classof2014 on September 04, 2013, 08:20:18 AM
If an arena was built any further than a reasonable walk for VU students it would be a terrible move for the university to move there. Having our arena in Chesterton will kill all student interest. The only games I could see happening there would possibly be the occasional game over a break. Other than that it'd be an awful move for the university.
But, it might allow us to get bigger names into the area with the bigger venue and perhaps a bigger guarantee.
If VU was to work with this, it would have to be for games against Notre Dame, Illinois, Duke, North Carolina, and the like. There is no way this arena, if built any significant distance from campus, would deteriorate student interest, and possibly some local/season ticket holder fan support, because it wouldn't be the most conceivable way to get consistent attendance to games that fans/students already don't go to, like the non-D1s or the Chicago States of the basketball world. Plus, we don't know what the private owners of this arena would want to charge in rent and tickets for VU basketball games. I could guarantee there wouldn't be a tiered pricing setup for non-D1s/out-of-conference vs. Horizon League games, like you see now. How would fans feel about paying $30 for a cheap seat to a single game for VU basketball against a non-D1, like an IU-N, Purdue-Cal, and those teams that we should beat with our bench players seeing significant minutes?
Quote from: valporun on September 04, 2013, 10:09:01 AM
There is no way this arena, if built any significant distance from campus, would deteriorate student interest, and possibly some local/season ticket holder fan support, because it wouldn't be the most conceivable way to get consistent attendance to games that fans/students already don't go to, like the non-D1s or the Chicago States of the basketball world.
It's crazy to think that moving the arena 15-20 minutes away wouldn't affect student interest. There's already more student support in Valpo (with the smallest school) than any other team in the Horizon. Would as many students come to games if they had to take a shuttle to the game? Definitely not.
What if it was built on campus? Is the location not right to attract folks for other events? Add a huge parking facility. This is the kind of financing we need (i.e. others putting up the money and VU leasing over a long term). I suspect this is what is happening for the new dorm--don't know for sure.
What if the Duneland Arena was built in the Eastgate area? What the Duneland Sports Authority is looking for is a location near major interstate highways. What would be needed is to improve Highway 49 to a full limited access highway. What holds up the traffic on 49 is the stop lights. If they could get the state to build overpasses where there are stoplights at Indian Boundary Rd, East Porter Rd, the Indiana Toll Rd access road and 500 North/Burlington Beach Rd (the other intersections would have to be limited to a frontage road) that would make 49 a totally limited access highway from I-94 to US 30. Which I think would make a venue sight in Valpo next to the VU campus much more likely. It would be a huge investment by the state but something they would be willing to do if the Duneland Arena was privately funded. Obviously it would also help Valpo with more economic opportunities.
You're right, a3uge. I should have paid attention to how I worded this. I didn't edit my post, and just typed. I meant to say the opposite of what I posted, but just typed, instead of read what I said. I guess that's what I get for not having posted in about a week or so.
I don't think Mark would want to play in a 10,300 seat venue unless it were for specific opponents.
Quote from: vu72 on September 04, 2013, 01:00:11 PM
I don't think Mark would want to play in a 10,300 seat venue unless it were for specific opponents.
Not trying to split hairs, '72, but the news release says it seats 9000 for basketball.
Concerts: 5,300 (half-house), 6,400 (3/4 house) 7,790 (End-stage) 10,350 (center-stage) Basketball: 9,000 Ice Hockey: 8,400 (9,200 with standing room)It doesn't really change your point, except that 9 might seem a tad "cozier" than 10-3. I will say that the prospects of playing at least some home games in a state-of-the-art 9000 seat arena does have a certain appeal to it.
Quote from: wh on September 04, 2013, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: vu72 on September 04, 2013, 01:00:11 PM
I don't think Mark would want to play in a 10,300 seat venue unless it were for specific opponents.
Not trying to split hairs, '72, but the news release says it seats 9000 for basketball.
Concerts: 5,300 (half-house), 6,400 (3/4 house) 7,790 (End-stage) 10,350 (center-stage) Basketball: 9,000 Ice Hockey: 8,400 (9,200 with standing room)
It doesn't really change your point, except that 9 might seem a tad "cozier" than 10-3. I will say that the prospects of playing at least some home games in a state-of-the-art 9000 seat arena does have a certain appeal to it.
My bad!
The world is full of new ideas and talk is cheap. Even the suburban Chicago area has venues that size that are having trouble staying in business and attracting crowds. You've got to be kidding...in Porter County?
Definitely feels half-baked.
Quote
with representative events such as: College, high school, youth hockey, soccer, la crosse, basketball, sports tournaments and a growing list of sports- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports.) Family friendly concerts, dog shows, circus, Disney, Sesame, ice capades, community events, trade shows, corporate, religious and cultural events.
Really?
I'd be delighted if something positive came of this. But, the newspaper piece accurately reflected the press release in at least one respect - it seems a bit nebulous and of uncertain future.
Quote from: valpo64 on September 04, 2013, 02:04:22 PM
The world is full of new ideas and talk is cheap. Even the suburban Chicago area has venues that size that are having trouble staying in business and attracting crowds. You've got to be kidding...in Porter County?
To be fair the article didn't say it was just for Porter County. It said "... Provide family-friendly entertainment and sports to Northwest Indiana and greater Chicagoland."
Quote from: agibson on September 04, 2013, 02:05:50 PM
Definitely feels half-baked.
Quote
with representative events such as: College, high school, youth hockey, soccer, la crosse, basketball, sports tournaments and a growing list of sports- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports.) Family friendly concerts, dog shows, circus, Disney, Sesame, ice capades, community events, trade shows, corporate, religious and cultural events.
Really?
I'd be delighted if something positive came of this. But, the newspaper piece accurately reflected the press release in at least one respect - it seems a bit nebulous and of uncertain future.
So you're telling me I won't be able to go to the Lakeshore Bone and Joint Family Express Duneland Arena in 10 years and watch some competitive Axe Throwing, Buzkashi, Cowboy Action Shooting, or Moscow broomball???
Seeing how tough it is to fill a 5,000-seat gym to the point where it doesn't look half empty, I can't imagine the university would be interested in an arena half the size. The place would be a graveyard on most HL or other game days. This arena would likely be home to a major junior hockey league team, and might play host to the local Purdue directional campus teams and things like that.
And don't be so quick to dismiss the idea of major artists playing a 9,000 seat arena on the southern shore of Lake Michigan. Booking agents love to book shows that are between major tour stops like Chicago and Detroit, or Milwaukee an INdy
Thoughts:
-I am extremely doubtful that there is a business plan that could make this work.
-Regardless, if this were (by some miracle) to be built - Valpo should NEVER agree to be a tenant. College basketball needs to be played within walking distance for students and any rationalization of busing students to and from games would be completely unrealistic. Furthermore, regardless of what is not said in the press release I would almost guarantee that this group is assuming that Valpo would be a tenant. Unless it is walking distance, that should never happen.
Why is almost every poster deadset against having a larger arena off campus but within Porter County? How far do most of you travel to see Crusader games? Everybody has stated it but I really haven't heard any good reasons. Isn't the unspoken reason that students are too lazy to get off their duff to get to the games? Couldn't the athletic dept get that mindset changed?
Personally, I like the idea of keeping the ARC and using the Duneland Arena for games against teams that draw larger crowds such as Purdue, Indiana, Illinois, Notre Dame, Marquette, Butler, North Carolina, etc.
Quote from: historyman on September 04, 2013, 08:25:11 PM
Personally, I like the idea of keeping the ARC and using the Duneland Arena for games against teams that draw larger crowds such as Purdue, Indiana, Illinois, Notre Dame, Marquette, Butler, North Carolina, etc.
To dream the impossible dream, to........
Quote from: historyman on September 04, 2013, 12:23:59 PM
What if the Duneland Arena was built in the Eastgate area? What the Duneland Sports Authority is looking for is a location near major interstate highways. What would be needed is to improve Highway 49 to a full limited access highway. What holds up the traffic on 49 is the stop lights. If they could get the state to build overpasses where there are stoplights at Indian Boundary Rd, East Porter Rd, the Indiana Toll Rd access road and 500 North/Burlington Beach Rd (the other intersections would have to be limited to a frontage road) that would make 49 a totally limited access highway from I-94 to US 30. Which I think would make a venue sight in Valpo next to the VU campus much more likely. It would be a huge investment by the state but something they would be willing to do if the Duneland Arena was privately funded. Obviously it would also help Valpo with more economic opportunities.
I agree with making IN49 a limited access highway. With the recent completion of the Vale Park overpass, I think we are making progress. Burlington Beach is the last stop between Valpo and the toll road.
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on September 05, 2013, 07:53:45 AMI agree with making IN49 a limited access highway. With the recent completion of the Vale Park overpass, I think we are making progress. Burlington Beach is the last stop between Valpo and the toll road.
Huh - I'd not thought of it like that, but I guess so. There are other places you might get off, without off-ramps. But, I suppose that is the only remaining stoplight.
The question was asked "why is everyone against Valpo using an off-campus arena?". It's not that students are lazy...its that any person (student or otherwise) is going to make a cost-benefit tradeoff when going to an event. Even if your dollar cost is zero (which I think it is for students at Valpo), they still have to invest the time versus school work or other activities. If students live on or near campus, it is a short walk and the total time devoted to the game would be about 2 1/2 hours. Add getting to the bus, bus travel time (both ways), etc. and the time could go up to 4 hours. Additionally, you now have to figure in that something could go wrong (i.e the student does not control the bus where they do control walking to and from the game. Some students will make the choice not to devote the extra 1 1/2 hours - no matter what the marketing is from the athletic department. With some students making the choice not to go, student attendance will go down and thus the environment will significantly degrade. This has to be avoided.
Additionally, I would argue that when the team plays on campus there is a greater sense of ownership of the team compared to it playing 15-30 minutes away. Students feel they own the team more when the stadium is part of their environment.
DePaul is the classic case where I believe this has happened. Of course you could argue that if DePaul were a Top 20 team that there would be more student interest - but there would be more interest regardless. Others that (at least in my view) have had problems with off-campus arenas would include USC, Miami (FL) and UW-Milwaukee (though Miami had more attendance with a top team last year). Marquette would seem to be an exception.
I am just fearful that someone might rationalize that moving to a Duneland Arena would put Valpo into a new bigger stadium at a low university cost and that people will just come. They won't (unless this is a top team year in and year out - at a level it has never really consistently been at). Valpo basketball is far better in the ARC unless a new stadium is built on or right next to campus.
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 05, 2013, 12:48:08 PM
Others that (at least in my view) have had problems with off-campus arenas would include USC, Miami (FL) and UW-Milwaukee (though Miami had more attendance with a top team last year). Marquette would seem to be an exception.
I think comparing urban campuses in large cities is a bit different. UWM actually moved on-campus last year. It was such a horrible move that they're playing back off-campus.
I think with a smaller school like Valpo in a smaller town without nearly as many alums in the area, it makes sense to have your arena on campus. Moving it 15 minutes in a slightly more populated area will do nothing to help attendance. People in Chesterton that aren't going to games now, probably won't go to games if the arena is across the street from them. People in Valpo are more likely to stroll over to a game (students, faculty) that wouldn't be as likely to attend a game 15 minutes away in Chesterton.
Marquette plays at the Bradley Center and students bus to the games (about a mile from campus). Matter of fact, if you have a ticket stub for the game, you get a $1 pitcher at Murphy's after the game. Nothing greater than taking the bus from campus to a game and then getting sloshed with all your friends after a win.
Quote from: milldew72 on September 04, 2013, 03:54:13 PM
Seeing how tough it is to fill a 5,000-seat gym to the point where it doesn't look half empty, I can't imagine the university would be interested in an arena half the size. The place would be a graveyard on most HL or other game days. This arena would likely be home to a major junior hockey league team, and might play host to the local Purdue directional campus teams and things like that.
And don't be so quick to dismiss the idea of major artists playing a 9,000 seat arena on the southern shore of Lake Michigan. Booking agents love to book shows that are between major tour stops like Chicago and Detroit, or Milwaukee an INdy
There is a concept relative to seating capacity commonly referred to as the "80% rule." Basically, it says that once average attendance reaches 80% of seating capacity, it is time to expand, relocate, or build a larger venue. The same rule applies to adding church services, as another example. The theory is that attendees expect a certain level of comfort, visibility, personal service, etc. that is compromised when attendance rises above 80% of capacity. Thus, 80% becomes the tipping point whereby if changes are not made, interest begins to wane, the growth trend reverses, and attendance declines. Consistent with the 80% rule, the tipping point for the ARC becomes 4000 not 5000. It also says that simply revamping the ARC but keeping the seating capacity the same would be a strategic blunder. At a minimum a new or revamped venue should have a seating capacity of 6000, or 20% > present.
Quote from: wh on September 05, 2013, 02:11:58 PMThe same rule applies to adding church services, as another example.
Makes me wonder if the effect of "big games" on the average is quantitatively similar to the effect of Easter, Christmas, etc. It might be!
This thread is pointless. I've been told that VU will not consider playing its home games anywhere off campus.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on September 05, 2013, 02:49:18 PM
This thread is pointless. I've been told that VU will not consider playing its home games anywhere off campus.
Paul
In the scheme of things, every thread is pointless.
Quote from: a3uge on September 05, 2013, 02:58:33 PMevery thread is pointless
just those not attached to a needle, anyway
EDIT: looking back, this was my 2000th post. i had wanted (a while ago) to have something more meaningful as it...but...I suppose this is actually about par for my course.
Someone should get on the phone at VU and ask the folks over at Fairfield University whether or not playing their home games at the off campus 10K Webster Bank Arena at Harbor Yard is hurting their basketball program. I think Fairfield at least hosted an NIT game with that facility. The ARC could never do that. Fairfield could be a good mini case study for this situation.
That said, while I understand the concerns, I'm not sure why we're being so quick to dismiss this concept as a potential avenue and viable alternative to VU's current arena situation. I mean the first shovel of dirt hasn't even been thrown yet and we're already blue penciling and writing this project off because of student attendance issues or distance from campus. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I would want to at least initially explore any potential option that will get Valpo out of its current hot garbage facility as quickly as possible. If this is the means to do it, so be it. Is Valpo going to make Bryce wait for an arena renovation capital campaign like they did with his father? If the answer is yes, then why are we quickly dismissing this?
How many corporate or luxury boxes are envisioned within this project? That I'd like to know.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on September 05, 2013, 05:25:58 PM
Someone should get on the phone at VU and ask the folks over at Fairfield University whether or not playing their home games at the off campus 10K Webster Bank Arena at Harbor Yard is hurting their basketball program. I think Fairfield at least hosted an NIT game with that facility. The ARC could never do that. Fairfield could be a good mini case study for this situation.
That said, while I understand the concerns, I'm not sure why we're being so quick to dismiss this concept as a potential avenue and viable alternative to VU's current arena situation. I mean the first shovel of dirt hasn't even been thrown yet and we're already blue penciling and writing this project off because of student attendance issues or distance from campus. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I would want to at least initially explore any potential option that will get Valpo out of its current hot garbage facility as quickly as possible. If this is the means to do it, so be it. Is Valpo going to make Bryce wait for an arena renovation capital campaign like they did with his father? If the answer is yes, then why are we quickly dismissing this?
How many corporate or luxury boxes are envisioned within this project? That I'd like to know.
I completely agree with everything you said. Just because the men's basketball program happens to be doing well at the moment in no way diminishes the fact that we are still living on borrowed time relative to facilities and our ability to remain competitive over the long term. There is no way we can maintain the status quo and remain competitive, plus we are still in the "all talk no action" stage for an ARC "makeover." If you can't afford to buy your own home, what's wrong with living in a nice "rental" until you can?
Quote from: wh on September 05, 2013, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on September 05, 2013, 05:25:58 PM
Someone should get on the phone at VU and ask the folks over at Fairfield University whether or not playing their home games at the off campus 10K Webster Bank Arena at Harbor Yard is hurting their basketball program. I think Fairfield at least hosted an NIT game with that facility. The ARC could never do that. Fairfield could be a good mini case study for this situation.
That said, while I understand the concerns, I'm not sure why we're being so quick to dismiss this concept as a potential avenue and viable alternative to VU's current arena situation. I mean the first shovel of dirt hasn't even been thrown yet and we're already blue penciling and writing this project off because of student attendance issues or distance from campus. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I would want to at least initially explore any potential option that will get Valpo out of its current hot garbage facility as quickly as possible. If this is the means to do it, so be it. Is Valpo going to make Bryce wait for an arena renovation capital campaign like they did with his father? If the answer is yes, then why are we quickly dismissing this?
How many corporate or luxury boxes are envisioned within this project? That I'd like to know.
I completely agree with everything you said. Just because the men's basketball program happens to be doing well at the moment in no way diminishes the fact that we are still living on borrowed time relative to facilities and our ability to remain competitive over the long term. There is no way we can maintain the status quo and remain competitive, plus we are still in the "all talk no action" stage for an ARC "makeover." If you can't afford to buy your own home, what's wrong with living in a nice "rental" until you can?
I left a post on Fairfield's message board asking about how they felt about playing in an off campus arena.
Quote from: bbtds on September 05, 2013, 09:50:31 PMI left a post on Fairfield's message board asking about how they felt about playing in an off campus arena.
I think that Jimmy L. did a lot of research regarding Milwaukee's on-campus/off-campus arena decision and could probably offer the main pros and cons. The key difference is that the ARC is a better facility than the Klotsche Center, so Valpo isn't in a position where they need a new facility immediately.
Another school to look at would be Evansville. FWalum might provide more information, but they seem to be drawing ok with an arena that's 4 or 5 miles off campus. As I've stated, the Ford Center is extremely nice for a program like UE.
Another situation to watch is IUPUI, who will be moving games off-campus starting next year ('14-'15). May not be similar because a majority of IUPUI students live off-campus, but is still something to watch.
I agree with wh that no doors should be closed just yet ... but knowing a location would be helpful.
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 05, 2013, 12:48:08 PMThe question was asked "why is everyone against Valpo using an off-campus arena?". It's not that students are lazy...its that any person (student or otherwise) is going to make a cost-benefit tradeoff when going to an event. Even if your dollar cost is zero (which I think it is for students at Valpo), they still have to invest the time versus school work or other activities. If students live on or near campus, it is a short walk and the total time devoted to the game would be about 2 1/2 hours. Add getting to the bus, bus travel time (both ways), etc. and the time could go up to 4 hours. Additionally, you now have to figure in that something could go wrong (i.e the student does not control the bus where they do control walking to and from the game. Some students will make the choice not to devote the extra 1 1/2 hours - no matter what the marketing is from the athletic department. With some students making the choice not to go, student attendance will go down and thus the environment will significantly degrade. This has to be avoided. Additionally, I would argue that when the team plays on campus there is a greater sense of ownership of the team compared to it playing 15-30 minutes away. Students feel they own the team more when the stadium is part of their environment. DePaul is the classic case where I believe this has happened. Of course you could argue that if DePaul were a Top 20 team that there would be more student interest - but there would be more interest regardless. Others that (at least in my view) have had problems with off-campus arenas would include USC, Miami (FL) and UW-Milwaukee (though Miami had more attendance with a top team last year). Marquette would seem to be an exception. I am just fearful that someone might rationalize that moving to a Duneland Arena would put Valpo into a new bigger stadium at a low university cost and that people will just come. They won't (unless this is a top team year in and year out - at a level it has never really consistently been at). Valpo basketball is far better in the ARC unless a new stadium is built on or right next to campus.
Just to get the facts straight, as a USC graduate (and Valpo):
USC played at the "white elephant" LA Sports Arena for awhile in Exposition Park. It is about a 10 to 15 minute walk from campus to the Arena. As a hoops nut, I used to go to many games and be part of the 3000 in attendance (close to sellout for UCLA, 7 to 8 thousand for Arizona). The problem with USC basketball is not location. They just built a new arena within campus property. The problem is the entertainment options you have in LA and that most people do not want to spend time watching a mediocre team in a rough part of town. It's unfortunate, they have a beautiful new arena and Pac 12 competition is pretty good.
Here are the responses I got on the Fairfield Stags message board. http://fairfieldstags.proboards.com/board/1/men-basketball (http://fairfieldstags.proboards.com/board/1/men-basketball)
QuoteOthers will have far more detailed thoughts...
I think student attendance and interest is mildly, very mildly hurt by the arena being off campus... but understand, it isn't very high - regardless. My guess is the negative impact is slightly offset by a small bump in community attendance.
There is a lot of angst on this board about FU attendance... but I think the arena is probably pretty low on the list of reasons why we don't see 4k+ and 500 students per game.
QuoteIn a nutshell and in the order you asked;
1: YES. terribly so. any game in our on campus facility finds a student section 3/4 to 100% full. Our off campus facility sees a bunch of empty sections. Doesnt matter who we are playing. A game on campus draws kids, even if its a part of the kids pre-game, have few drinks and get rowdy at the game, whereas this never occurs at our off campus facility.
2: There are school buses (used to be coach buses) that run every fifteen minutes from the center of campus to the arena and back
3: Marginally so? The on campus games find a sold out crowd from locals and fairfield die hards, the same ones that go to the off campus facility. The off campus facility may find more stragglers or groups, but only slightly so
4: From what I can tell, Id say 80% are empty for fairfield games. One is occupied by the university. They simply dont add to attendance
QuoteAgain, if Fairfield put a string of NCAA appearances and won a game or two in the tournament, there would be plenty of students. The last time the Stags were in the tournament, most of the students in the current freshman class weren't even 2 years old.
QuoteOne of the biggest issues of the off-campus Webster Bank Arena in Bridgeport (5.3 miles away up I-95) is that it is a facility built around a hockey rink. This prevents the fans from getting close to the action. Management has tried to address the problem with moving the court and putting up curtains to block off almost half the arena but at the end of the day it is still a multi purpose hockey arena and not a basketball facility.
www.websterbankarena.com/ (http://www.websterbankarena.com/)
QuoteAn off campus arena will reduce student attendance if your team is no good, or you are playing in a meaningless game against a poor team. Students are fickle and they don't show. If your team is a consistent winner, always playing games with 1st place considerations, and make it to the NCAA Toureney every few years, then there is no issue, the students will show in good numbers.
As far as attracting the community, an off campus arena helps with the attendance. In our case, the Webster Bank Arena is a much better facility than our on-campus gym facility, so our attendance is generally higher.
Bottom line is if the team is winning and playing important games then the off-campus arena is great, attendance is high, and the program looks like a big time program, which attracts recruits, fans, better coaches, and more coprporate sponsors. But if your team is not good, then the arena seems empty and there are no students. So expect big variation in attendance:
Big Game in Arena 3,500-5,500
Unimportant game in Arena 1,500-2,000
On Campus Gym 1,700 - 2,200
Overall the biggest benefit of moving off campus to a nicer arena is that our program went from the bottom of the MAAC to the top of the MAAC. We attract better recruits, better coaches, program has won more games, and has put is in a position to be considerded to move up to more attractive leagues. Playing in our on-campus gym makes us look small time, (HS level), and stagnates the program. The big difference is that an arena makes a big difference if its off-campus or on-campus.
QuoteI think the off campus arena (WBA) has helped the FFld. recruiting process signifcantly. This is mostly because alumni hall (on -campus)is sub -standard venue today for division-1 sports and is a negative for recruitng. The crowds we get at WBA will be what they are only around 2-3K becuse it is MAAC basketball which is not generally attractive to the general public or to our students.
QuoteThe pro of playing at WBA is obviously that it's a state of the art, modern arena, the kind we could never build on campus. Our local town zoning board will not allow us to build a new on-campus arena unless it's very small, so we were sort of forced to move off campus. It's neat to play in a professional arena with bars, restaurants, huge video boards, it feels very big time.
The con of playing at WBA is that students won't show up. One reason is because we're not playing well right now; also, the buses that take students to the games used to have a notorious reputation for not being on time or leaving kids stranded after games. I don't know if those issues have been resolved.
However, I"m not sure Fairfield is a relevant gauge of whether a school like Valpo would benefit from an off campus arena. Our students & alums are just not into basketball the way schools like Valpo, Xavier and Dayton are. For example, Siena also plays off campus and its been a great success for them.
QuoteI think for an Arena to be successful, it has to be in more of a destination area than the WBA. People go the events but (with limited exception)don't come early to or stay late in the area. It has a great transporation infrastructure but not much else in it's immediate surrounding area. I don't know if we truly have any one who walks to the arena from their homes/apartments.
QuoteIt has a great transporation infrastructure but not much else in it's immediate surrounding area. I don't know if we truly have any one who walks to the arena from their homes/apartments.....
IMO, the local community is never going to come out in great numbers for MAAC Basketball no matter how successful the program is regardless if it is a meaningful MAAC game. Whatever increase in attendance at the WBA is going to come from our alumni and students. Otherwise it will be the 1,500 to 2,000 average on game days. AR/Development needs to get on the same page with Athletics especially by giving Athletics the alumni contact information that is needed to reach out to all our fellow alums within traveling distance of the WBA and it's Stag Club. Stag Basketball and MAAC Basketball just does not have the "entertainment" factor to create interest and demand unless the Stags are playing a name opponent. The Bridgeport market is not the same as the Capital District market in Albany where Siena has been very successful with the non-Siena connected fans and the business community.
QuoteMy "walk to" comment wasn't just directed at FU sports at the arena - I don't think there are many that would or could walk to any event at the arena. Roads, parking, the harbor and 9-5 businesses take up a good chunk of the immediate area.
QuoteCheck out the Mohegan Sun Arena (Uncasville, CT) "upcoming events" page and the WBA (Bridgeport, CT) "upcoming events". Both are 10,000 seat concert/basketball facilities and are 72 miles apart but one is a destination and the other is Bridgeport:
www.mohegansun.com/entertainment/arena.html (http://www.mohegansun.com/entertainment/arena.html)
www.websterbankarena.com/Schedule.dbml?&&&DB_OEM_ID=26700&SPID=91995&Q_SEASON=2012 (http://www.websterbankarena.com/Schedule.dbml?&&&DB_OEM_ID=26700&SPID=91995&Q_SEASON=2012)
Here were my questions:
Do you think student attendance and interest is hurt by the arena being off campus?
What arrangements have been made to get students to the games?
Do you feel you get more turn out from the general community at the off campus arena than an on campus arena?
How much do the premium seating suites add to attendance?
I have now asked those same questions on the Siena Proboards message board.
If the arena is built, it's gonna most likely go in the once prominently and nationally recognized Coffee Creek Center on the outskirts of Chesterton in Liberty Township, which has been pretty stagnant in development since it got an article in Time Magazine in the 1990s, though Coffee Creek just got Urschel Labratories (food processing equipment) to relocate there. This location makes the most sense cause it's near I80-90 and I94. I bet we would use the Duneland arena for big non-conference home games. Another sleeper for an area that VU could develop on its own is the old "eyesore" 3D store on the northeast corner of Roosevelt and Licolnway. I bet that will become a sports/campus use facility, but not a 9,000 seat arena. The old hospital is an area that VU will use for athletic facilities most likely use, but they gotta first do the chemical/asbestos check/cleanup before VU takes full control of the 12 acre site. We could use this for a bigger arena. Both the 3D and the old hospital are within walking distance and are possible areas for a new ARC.
Quote from: zvillehaze on September 05, 2013, 10:16:15 PMAnother school to look at would be Evansville. FWalum might provide more information, but they seem to be drawing ok with an arena that's 4 or 5 miles off campus. As I've stated, the Ford Center is extremely nice for a program like UE.
UE basketball is somewhat unique because it is much more of a community team than most programs. UE has played off campus since 1957, first at Robert's Stadium and now at Ford (Roberts actually had more seating capacity than Ford). Evansville hosted the DII National Championships for around 20 years and during the 50's, 60's and early 70's, won the DII title 6 times. I think the "77" tragedy was also a galvanizing event between the team and community. When I was involved with UE they were very concerned that attendance at games had dropped from around 10,000 in the early-mid 90's to around 6,000 after the new millennium. Bringing back Marty Simmons as coach and the move to the Ford Center has helped reverse that trend somewhat along with their increased competetiveness, playing in the MVC certainly also helps along with a certain player named Colt Ryan. Because they have played off campus for so long I don't know that we can really compare them to VU's situation.
Quote from: FWalum on September 09, 2013, 09:26:15 AM
Quote from: zvillehaze on September 05, 2013, 10:16:15 PMAnother school to look at would be Evansville. FWalum might provide more information, but they seem to be drawing ok with an arena that's 4 or 5 miles off campus. As I've stated, the Ford Center is extremely nice for a program like UE.
UE basketball is somewhat unique because it is much more of a community team than most programs. UE has played off campus since 1957, first at Robert's Stadium and now at Ford (Roberts actually had more seating capacity than Ford). Evansville hosted the DII National Championships for around 20 years and during the 50's, 60's and early 70's, won the DII title 6 times. I think the "77" tragedy was also a galvanizing event between the team and community. When I was involved with UE they were very concerned that attendance at games had dropped from around 10,000 in the early-mid 90's to around 6,000 after the new millennium. Bringing back Marty Simmons as coach and the move to the Ford Center has helped reverse that trend somewhat along with their increased competetiveness, playing in the MVC certainly also helps along with a certain player named Colt Ryan. Because they have played off campus for so long I don't know that we can really compare them to VU's situation.
Isn't the biggest issue for UE is that they are land locked in the central part of the city south of the Lloyd Expressway? If UE wants to expand their enrollment or build any significant buildings without tearing down any buildings they probably would have to move the whole campus to another location. Maybe on the north end of the city towards the airport or even further north. Butler had to do that in Indy from a more central location to further north in the early 1900's in order to expand.
OK...I'm going to get involved here...I didn't see anyone mention anything about what I'm going to say here. The group that I was involved with a few years ago were planning on building an arena complex at the corner of 49 and 2 in Valparaiso...at Eastport Center(I think that's the name of the development). We would have used the existing dome and build a bigger monolithic dome right next to it. It was very cost effecting to build a dome facility and it would have also served as an official disaster shelter(for tornado safety). The site hinged on the property just to the west being available, which it wasn't at the time. We would have bought land and existing buildings just to the south east as well. We never got past our funding issues...we weren't going to ask for state, county, city or university money...totally privately funded. The seating that this group is talking about is the exact seating capacity that we were talking about. We did do market research and we found that people would drive that far south of the expressways to see sports and concerts. Here's the stuff that's interesting...we had someone in our group that was associated with someone in the NBA. There was definite interest in placing an NBA D-League team in NW Indiana. In addition to that, there was interest from a actual NBA team in making NW Indiana their NBA D-League home...probably the Pacers, but we were never sure. We were also contacted by an AHL team about relocating there from their current old arena. What I'm saying is that VU isn't the only choice when choosing an anchor tenant or two. AS for VU playing there, they could for big games...or all of their games for that matter...the students could always be bussed in...I just hope that they go with our monolithic dome design...
Since you brought this back up I remembered to check out the answers I got on the Siena message board http://sienahoops.com/board/2/sienahoop. (http://sienahoops.com/board/2/sienahoop.)
Quote1. Yes-- student attendance and atmosphere is the #1 concern--- plus the arena is too big to fill to capacity. YOur 9,000 seat arena should be small enough to address this but student turnout will be a struggle.
2. Buses are provided. Some students complain about long wait times and standing in the cold.
3. Yes-- several thousand more attend the games on a regular basis than possible at our on campus facility. Crowds of over 10,000 occur with the annual rivalry game and for big time opponents when Siena is doing well--
4. Premium seating doesn't add much attendance but adds revenue-- also coroporate advertising is greater at the arena.
For the student it's not so great. For the program it has taken Siena to another level. The size of your arena [the proposed 9,000 seat arena] may be the perfect compromise.
QuoteI don't think student *interest* is hurt. It can make the logistics a little harder sometimes, but going downtown for a big-time atmosphere is a fun thing to do. A lot of upperclassmen will stay downtown after a game and go out. In years past, the student fan club used to run pre-game events at a bar near the arena (that didn't really work out with the whole drinking age thing). The buses bring students back and forth for free. The students are given the floor seats under the basket and the end-court seats behind those.
The school makes quite a bit of money from premium seating. Not so much the box seats as the seating closer to the court. Donors to the Saints Alive program get first choice on season ticket locations, which of course encourages participation in Saints Alive.
Arenas tend to have more concession stand options than on-campus facilities, which is a nice thing for the fans.
QuoteThe arena is NOT too big to fill to capacity. The Times Union Center was not built for basketball, so it is harder to sell some seats, but it can and will be done in the right circumstances. Valpo, being in Indiana (and the midwest in general) probably needs more than 9,000 off campus. Look at attendance in the Missouri Valley Conference and the Horizon League, and how Bryce Drew has Valpo rolling. They will be the next mid-major power.
QuoteNot sure on the specifics of whether Valpo serves beer at the current on campus arena but with an off campus arena they certainly could and that will boost attendance as well as concession revenue. The biggest problem, as others have stated, is getting the students to the games. But taking the games off campus will absolutely make the team feel less like the school's team and more like the city's team and that will draw a lot of non-alumni support.
I think the biggest things I got from the Fairfield and Siena message boards was that student attendance might be hurt but that COULD (and I emphasize "could") be offset by bigger non-alumni/community attendance and it would very much help with recruiting because you could show the recruits a better facility. The need for a better facility has been a long, reoccurring theme on this board.
corn--muy interesante, gracias...
On the first page of a Google search for us, this 'articlette' is found.
Thought I would close the self-referential circle:
http://dunelandsports.org/valpo-fanzone-blog-discusses-duneland-arena/ (http://dunelandsports.org/valpo-fanzone-blog-discusses-duneland-arena/)
Quote from: historyman on September 04, 2013, 08:25:11 PMIsn't the unspoken reason that students are too lazy to get off their duff to get to the games? Couldn't the athletic dept get that mindset changed?
Your point is well-taken, historyman. However, I think you're overestimating the willingness of today's college students to exert effort in support of Valpo athletics (or much else, frankly). Convenience is preeminent in the minds of college students. ( I'm beginning to sound like an old codger at the age of forty-five.)
The arena would be a nice addition, but I don't see it being a success. Basically, it will be a suburban arena, and several of the wise posters above have pointed out the challenges that such a facility will inevitably face.
Here is a followup story from January in the NWI Business Quarterly Magazine. It was still full speed ahead at that time:
http://www.nwibq.com/business/economic-development/green-arena/ (http://www.nwibq.com/business/economic-development/green-arena/)
Boardman, a 1983 Valparaiso University graduate, says he has been engaged with local, state and national academic, government and corporate research facilities. This includes learning from Valparaiso University's experience in launching LEED technology and solar technology on its campus. "Valparaiso University is a national leader with one of five solar research labs in the country," he says. The university also has the only LEED Platinum academic building in Indiana.
With a location in mind, Boardman tentatively hopes to commence construction of Duneland Arena in 2015, with the project generating about 250 construction jobs. He hopes the venue would open sometime in 2016.
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss this...
1. An interesting, related article from the NWI Times from July of last year:
VALPARAISO | The newly formed Porter County Sports Cabinet is continuing to gather information for an amateur sports and recreation facilities study.
The group, which includes officials with Indiana Dunes Tourism, the Porter County Plan Commission, Valparaiso Parks Department and Valparaiso University, met Thursday in VU's Harre Union.
Interestingly, this article is also posted in Bordman's business website dunelandsports.org
2. Also on Bordman's website is a picture and description of what this new facility would look like.
http://dunelandsports.org/duneland-arena/ (http://dunelandsports.org/duneland-arena/)
Note the capacities:
Concerts: 5,300 (half-house)
6,400 (3/4 house)
7,790 (End-stage)
10,350 (center-stage)
Basketball: 9,000
Ice Hockey: 8,400 (9,200 with standing room)
It appears that it may be modeled after the Richmond Olympic Oval in Richmond, BC:
http://richmondoval.ca/default.aspx (http://richmondoval.ca/default.aspx)
3. One of the articles mentions the Porter County Expo Center as the site they're looking at. The Expo Center is only 2.9 miles and 5 minutes from Valparaiso University. Yeah I know, it's not walking distance for VU students. Unless someone has millions of dollars to make a new or revamped ARC a reality in our lifetimes, a fantastic first class facility 2.9 miles away that would be the envy of the HL, the MVC, and a lot of other places sounds like a great consolation prize to me. I hope it happens.
I still can't imagine this happening. Typically arenas this size can only be built with some form of public funding as virtually all arenas cost more to build than they output economically. I don't really see Porter Counting creating a sales tax for this, and I don't really think a TIF district would generate enough tax revenue in the proposed location. If I were Valpo, I wouldn't hold my breath on this happening and I'd continue with the original plan of a new fieldhouse with renovations to the ARC instead of waiting around for yet another failed arena plan. As long as they link to a 'List of Sports' article on Wikipedia, I can't take this group seriously.
Even if this magically gets built, I don't expect it to have a huge impact on the actual team, that is, unless the MVC extends a bid because of it. The brand new Ford Center hasn't really given Evansville a huge boost in recruiting - they finished with a 200+ RPI last year. Green Bay hasn't made the tourney since moving into Resch Center. I think the impact of facilities tends to get overstated a bit... I think winning tradition and coaching plays about 95% into a recruits decision in deciding which mid major school to attend. I can't imagine playing in a mostly empty stadium with virtually no students would be significantly more enticing than playing in the ARC. Maybe a little bit, but is it really going to sway recruits?
A large arena for Porter County is doomed to fail. Let's concentrate on getting the ARC renovated and expanded. You cannot beat an on-campus facility, especially at a school VU's size. It is time for the ARC project to get moving.
An off-site arena would absolutely, positively be the WORST thing VU athletics could ever, ever do. It would basically kill off our basketball program.
Just ask the Drake University athletics people, here where I live, in Des Moines. Drake played its home games at Vets Auditorium in downtown DSM for years. During which time, I should mention, they had to fight and scratch to get decent home dates over classy events like monster truck pulls and KISS concerts. Although the Auditorium is located maybe 2 miles from the Drake campus, student apathy was rampant and students stayed away from the games in droves. No wonder Drake basketball took a nosedive during these years. I think Drake had one winning season from the mid 1980s until its MVC championship/NCAA tournament year in 2008. If a contest was held during those years and Drake tickets were the prize, then the first place winner got 2 tickets...and the second place winner got 4 tickets. Yes, it was THAT bad for Drake. They had back-to-back seasons of 1-26 and 3-24. Not kidding.
When a donor stepped forward to help fund an on-campus arena in the early 1990s, it took Drake all of about 5 seconds to jump at the chance to get back on campus.
No remodeling of the ARC until the fieldhouse gets built. And, in my opinion, the board won't authorize the fieldhouse until the new science building and another new dorm gets built. Considering that the fieldhouse will cost at least $40 million, which will take at least two years to raise, I don't think the first shovel of dirt gets tossed until around 2017. If then.
Paul
If we took a poll, I doubt there would be a single vote in favor of an off-campus basketball venue over a new or revamped on-campus facility. Similarly, there wouldn't be a single vote in favor of a shared community natatorium over one on campus controlled exclusively by the university. Unfortunately, unless you're a Loyola with money to burn or a public university with taxpayer dollars to abuse (neither of which applies to Valpo), you may have to explore more creative solutions. I believe the administration is doing exactly that.
Quote from: 78crusader on May 27, 2014, 03:34:48 PM
Considering that the fieldhouse will cost at least $40 million, which will take at least two years to raise, I don't think the first shovel of dirt gets tossed until around 2017. If then.
D-III Middlebury College in Vermont built a palace for $22 million. I believe a basic fieldhouse could come in under that.
Quote from: wh on May 27, 2014, 09:09:34 PM
Similarly, there wouldn't be a single vote in favor of a shared community natatorium over one on campus controlled exclusively by the university.
If the donor backing is there I completely agree, WH, but it isn't, and a community/university collaboration
on campus could work as a win/win for all. Look, we already use a "community" facility for indoor tennis and it is enriching our program. Unlike some other schools where there is a golf course on campus we use Aberdeen. In the non-revenue sports this sort of cooperation can work -- as long as it is on or near campus for sports like tennis, golf and swimming.
Many of us have wondered about why the community does not support Valpo as much as we would like. In the non-revenue sports, this is where we can engender greater community involvement. Maybe that would spill over, in time, to all sports.
Case in point: D-III Concordia University Wisconsin. Baseball. Kapco park. 3,000 seat on-campus baseball stadium.
Site of the 2014 Horizon Baseball tournament. The place is super -- I've been there. During the summer it hosts the Lakewood Chinooks of the Northwoods Collegiate league. >>>> http://cuwfalcons.com/facilities/kapcopark (http://cuwfalcons.com/facilities/kapcopark)
But both of us agree (I think) that any collaboration has to be well thought out and that our major sports have to think
very carefully about things like off campus venues. Personally I favor an ARC renovation. I also depart from the majority and believe that the ARC can be renovated in, say, a 3 year phased plan without having to wait for the field house to be built.
When did Middlebury build their fieldhouse? My sister graduated from there in 2005, and was a 4 year volleyball starter. She actually turned down a partial Valpo soccer scholarship to play volleyball at Middlebury! If it was when she was in school, I will have to ask her how it looked on a daily basis :)
I did not know that Valpo was that strapped for cash. I know they do not have funding for a $150M sports center, but you would think the suitors can fork out $20 - 30M for a decent renovation and expansion of the ARC.
Drake has a fairly decent arena for basketball, and a great location. However, fans are not packing the Knapp Center. Recent teams have been pretty average.
Quote from: valpotx on May 28, 2014, 12:30:09 AM
When did Middlebury build their fieldhouse? My sister graduated from there in 2005, and was a 4 year volleyball starter. She actually turned down a partial Valpo soccer scholarship to play volleyball at Middlebury! If it was when she was in school, I will have to ask her how it looked on a daily basis :)
It will be done by the fall of this year. I was wrong, 78 -- it was in the same $$$ ballpark as your $40 million -- $46 million to be exact. It's called the "Field House and Squash Center." Squash is big back east I guess. Check out the slide show. http://www.middlebury.edu/giving/priorities/Programs/athletics/field_house (http://www.middlebury.edu/giving/priorities/Programs/athletics/field_house)
Field House•110,000 square feet
Track•6-lane, 200-meter track
•8 60-meter sprint lanes
•Areas for high jump, long jump, pole vault, and throwing
Inside the Track•Artificial turf field suitable for all field sports
Squash Center•Expansion of squash courts from 5 to 9
Couple random thoughts.
* A new field house will help tremendously with prospective students. The big knock I had on Valpo compared to other schools I visited was that other schools seemed to have plenty of things to do. Valpo did very well with presenting Engineering/academics, but did a terrible job of presenting any recreational activities (this was before the new union). I visited Carthage and was impressed with their new field house and the fact they open courts and an open track, etc, and found Valpo pretty boring comparatively.
* This new field house should contain a new pool. The pool at the Super 8 up the road is nicer than the Valpo pool.
* Funding a new field house will be difficult. Do the Christopher's have any money left? Why don't any of our big donors like sports? In the past 10 years we've built a $35 million dollar Library and a $70 million dollar Union. Getting donations for all of these buildings seems like a daunting task.
* The boon in new buildings occurred mostly in the late 60's, early 70's. Architecturally the buildings all look the same, which is unfortunate because these buildings have remarkably poor designs, inside and out. Gellerson looks like a Frank Lloyd Wright designed state prison (http://www.cardcow.com/images/set321/card00174_fr.jpg). Having as few windows as possible was a poor idea.
* A new field house needs to be in place before they can renovate the ARC to have a better arena feel. The extra space will allow room for a proper concourse, and since courts will be built in the new arena, the seating will no longer need to be retractable. In my opinion, building a new 'arena' would be a waste of money. Build a fieldhouse with a bunch of courts and a pool, then come back to the ARC and keep making renovations to it.
Quote from: a3uge on May 28, 2014, 02:20:51 PM
Couple random thoughts.
* A new field house will help tremendously with prospective students. The big knock I had on Valpo compared to other schools I visited was that other schools seemed to have plenty of things to do. Valpo did very well with presenting Engineering/academics, but did a terrible job of presenting any recreational activities (this was before the new union). I visited Carthage and was impressed with their new field house and the fact they open courts and an open track, etc, and found Valpo pretty boring comparatively.
* This new field house should contain a new pool. The pool at the Super 8 up the road is nicer than the Valpo pool.
* Funding a new field house will be difficult. Do the Christopher's have any money left? Why don't any of our big donors like sports? In the past 10 years we've built a $35 million dollar Library and a $70 million dollar Union. Getting donations for all of these buildings seems like a daunting task.
* The boon in new buildings occurred mostly in the late 60's, early 70's. Architecturally the buildings all look the same, which is unfortunate because these buildings have remarkably poor designs, inside and out. Gellerson looks like a Frank Lloyd Wright designed state prison (http://www.cardcow.com/images/set321/card00174_fr.jpg). Having as few windows as possible was a poor idea.
* A new field house needs to be in place before they can renovate the ARC to have a better arena feel. The extra space will allow room for a proper concourse, and since courts will be built in the new arena, the seating will no longer need to be retractable. In my opinion, building a new 'arena' would be a waste of money. Build a fieldhouse with a bunch of courts and a pool, then come back to the ARC and keep making renovations to it.
A few random thoughts of my own:
First, I hope you weren't considering Cathage as a place to get an engineering degree and second, The Christopher's sold The Pampered Chef to Warren Buffet for around a billion. I'm pretty sure they don't have to watch their pennies. The rest of the stuff I agree with.
Quote from: vu72 on May 28, 2014, 08:24:00 PM
Quote from: a3uge on May 28, 2014, 02:20:51 PM
Couple random thoughts.
* A new field house will help tremendously with prospective students. The big knock I had on Valpo compared to other schools I visited was that other schools seemed to have plenty of things to do. Valpo did very well with presenting Engineering/academics, but did a terrible job of presenting any recreational activities (this was before the new union). I visited Carthage and was impressed with their new field house and the fact they open courts and an open track, etc, and found Valpo pretty boring comparatively.
* This new field house should contain a new pool. The pool at the Super 8 up the road is nicer than the Valpo pool.
* Funding a new field house will be difficult. Do the Christopher's have any money left? Why don't any of our big donors like sports? In the past 10 years we've built a $35 million dollar Library and a $70 million dollar Union. Getting donations for all of these buildings seems like a daunting task.
* The boon in new buildings occurred mostly in the late 60's, early 70's. Architecturally the buildings all look the same, which is unfortunate because these buildings have remarkably poor designs, inside and out. Gellerson looks like a Frank Lloyd Wright designed state prison (http://www.cardcow.com/images/set321/card00174_fr.jpg). Having as few windows as possible was a poor idea.
* A new field house needs to be in place before they can renovate the ARC to have a better arena feel. The extra space will allow room for a proper concourse, and since courts will be built in the new arena, the seating will no longer need to be retractable. In my opinion, building a new 'arena' would be a waste of money. Build a fieldhouse with a bunch of courts and a pool, then come back to the ARC and keep making renovations to it.
A few random thoughts of my own:
First, I hope you weren't considering Cathage as a place to get an engineering degree and second, The Christopher's sold The Pampered Chef to Warren Buffet for around a billion. I'm pretty sure they don't have to watch their pennies. The rest of the stuff I agree with.
Ah, nice. Did Dr Dre happen to go to Valpo? Knew I should've started my own headphone company.
Carthage only offered a split 3-2 engineering program with the U of Minnesota. Don't know who would do that, but at the time I was toying with 4 or 5 majors that they offered.
if the sports facility is off campus, and Valpo does not have to pay for anything, then would this be a viable solution? Would playing at a state of the art facility be better than playing at the ARC? Just asking since we are strapped for cash.
I don't think that Valpo is strapped for cash (though many state schools and large endowment schools do have more money). The issue at Valpo is priorities. New dorms, a new science building, and expanding or building a new business school have to be top priorities, plus the university is spending huge amounts on renovating the Chapel (which would not be my priority). A fieldhouse would fit behind those priorities, and once a fieldhouse is done the university can reasonably look to renovate the ARC with minimal or no expansion (a bowl with seating behind both baskets should get you to 6000 which is sufficient).
In no way should Valpo EVER move basketball off-site. Having other sports share facilities (golf, tennis, etc.) makes sense because there is little or no attendance (no offense...and I played one of those sports at Valpo).
One other comment: the post that refers to Gellersen (the original part of the building) as a Frank Lloyd Wright designed state prison is classic. The place is special because of the people, not the architecture.
I will not weigh too heavily into this debate at this time, but thought we'd mention that at least Portage County isn't trying to shove a sales tax increase down your throats (yet) to pay for a new arena for that will only be used by one tenant -- the Akron Zips. Summit County is hiding a .25% tax increase in a 1.25% overall increase for "safety/police/fire system" improvements that will be on the ballot in November. The Country will have a $75 million new 8500 seat arena constructed in downtown Akron (very near campus). The tax will be for 23 years and it is projected to pay $7 million/year (or $151 mill for the arena all in) to pay the bonds to build the arena. Akron will run the arena but likely will need to be subsidized because there are only 40 dates that would have mens and women's basketball (at most). The "plan" is to draw other events like tractor pulls and Globetrotters. Unfortunately, there are lots of other venues trying to attract B, C, and D acts in this area, with the Q, Canton Center, Youngstown State, multiple theatres, etc. Bad research and faulty economic studies will doom this if passed. With a white elephant called Wolstein Center at CSU nearby, it is reckless and feckless for the county to build another building for one tenant that barely fills on a few occasions a 5000 seat JAR. The JAR, btw, was built about the same time as ARC and is a bit similar in look and feel, except it has end court built-in bleachers. So, this will be an interesting development to watch. Of course, Akron U is happy to have someone build it for them.
WTH is a tractor pull event? I can picture it, but what is the point??
Wow, you do live a sheltered life! ;) Nothing like a going to a modified tractor pull: 2, 3, 4 and even 5-engine monster machines, deafening noise, the ground and stands literally shaking - a mind blowing experience guaranteed to make a man out of you!
Here's a little taste, right in your neck of the woods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brxI1aKbwg8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brxI1aKbwg8)
Hahaha. I think the fact that I have no clue where Whitewright, TX is, shows even more how sheltered I must be ;)
Clearly, the Texas History classes are lacking a certain something!
The fact that Whitewright is about 75 miles from Euless, north of McKinney and south of Sherman, should set off some alarms about your geography knowledge of Texas.
This isn't Indiana, where you have 10 miles of open land between cities, so you know every city in the state ;). You have city after interconnected city that have populations of 40k+ throughout DFW, and a population of 6.8 million throughout, and around 25-26 million in TX overall. That is more than many countries in the world!! Though 75 miles outside of the Mid-Cities (my area) may not sound far out, that is out in Podunk land. I know plenty about Texas geography/history, and Whitewright barely has any. I mean seriously, you expect me to know every city in a 100-200 mile radius that has a population of 1,600??? Look at this amazing information about the city:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewright,_Texas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewright,_Texas)
Let's see some hands! Who had Bennie Binion as having been from Whitewright, TX?? Anyone?? Bueller??
I would have asked, "Who's Bennie Binion?", but I'm guessing the big name casino owner of Binion's Casinos...
Valpotx, where the hell is Euless ??? !!!!!!
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n151/indytd/IMG_20140624_165127_973.jpg)
picture captured 6/24/2014
Right next to DFW Airport, with a population of around 53,000, halfway between Dallas and Fort Worth (Mid-Cities). Home to Trinity High School, a school often ranked in the top 3 each year of HS football rankings in the national polls ;).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euless,_Texas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euless,_Texas)
http://trinitytrojanfootball.com/about/ (http://trinitytrojanfootball.com/about/)
I grew up in Colleyville, a city next to Euless, with a population of around 23,000. Home to Colleyville Heritage High School, a school often ranked in the top 20 each year of HS baseball & football rankings in the national polls, including when I was in school playing :). It used to be in the top 100 public HS academic rankings in the nation when I was attending, but is now listed at #333. Home to Christian Ponder (Minnesota Vikings), James Russell (Chicago Cubs, I knew him as Jamie when I babysat for his family), Jaimie Alexander (Thor movie star), Norah Jones, Demi Lovato, Jenna Dewan Tatum (Channing Tatum's wife/actress), and a few other cool people. Those are the people who grew up in Cville, but there are a TON of professional athletes/actors/actresses that call Colleyville home now, due to house sizes and per capita income: Josh Hamilton, Pudge Rodriguez, several PGA golfers, Rafael Palmeiro (his kids went to CHHS as well), DeMarcus Ware, Roy Williams, etc. When Jose Canseco played with the Rangers, he lived in my neighborhood as well. In other words, we rule (not because of Canseco) ;). I will be moving back to Colleyville in 2-3 years so that my son can get into that better academic school district.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleyville,_TX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleyville,_TX)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleyville_Heritage_High_School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleyville_Heritage_High_School)
I was just playing with you.
I rented a car at DFW yesterday and had appointments in Frisco, Plano (2), McKinney, Sherman and Durant, OK. Then I had to drive back to DFW. Since I was running out of McKinney towards Sherman and noticed Whitewright on the map, I slid over and grabbed a picture. Those are some extremely rural roads (Farm to Market roads) from 75 over to 69 in eastern Grayson County. I don't know if it was the long horn steer or the guy in the black pick up truck tailgating me that made it seem more rural. I did notice a Binion Rd but no signs of Bennie Binion being honored by his home town. I guess a murderer, even John Dillinger, doesn't deserve any special treatment for being notorious. Right, Lake County!
Haha, that is funny. You see, I know ALL of those cities! I figured that you found that picture online, so it is cool that you are in area on business. I told you that once you get outside of what is truly considered DFW, there are tons of very small 'Podunk' towns, so Farm to Market roads are common in those areas. VU72 lives in the Frisco/Plano area, I believe, which are obviously affluent areas as well. I saw him again on Saturday at our Valpo DFW Club meeting. I have a lot of pride in my hometown, as if you looked at the Colleyville Wiki page, you will notice that my mother is on the City Council, the only female, and she definitely takes all the guys to task :).
Quote from: cornonthe on September 20, 2013, 11:34:30 PM
OK...I'm going to get involved here...I didn't see anyone mention anything about what I'm going to say here. The group that I was involved with a few years ago were planning on building an arena complex at the corner of 49 and 2 in Valparaiso...at Eastport Center(I think that's the name of the development). We would have used the existing dome and build a bigger monolithic dome right next to it. It was very cost effective to build a dome facility and it would have also served as an official disaster shelter(for tornado safety). The site hinged on the property just to the west being available, which it wasn't at the time. We would have bought land and existing buildings just to the south east as well. We never got past our funding issues...we weren't going to ask for state, county, city or university money...totally privately funded. The seating that this group is talking about is the exact seating capacity that we were talking about. We did do market research and we found that people would drive that far south of the expressways to see sports and concerts. Here's the stuff that's interesting...we had someone in our group that was associated with someone in the NBA. There was definite interest in placing an NBA D-League team in NW Indiana. In addition to that, there was interest from a actual NBA team in making NW Indiana their NBA D-League home...probably the Pacers, but we were never sure. We were also contacted by an AHL team about relocating there from their current old arena. What I'm saying is that VU isn't the only choice when choosing an anchor tenant or two. As for VU playing there, they could for big games...or all of their games for that matter...the students could always be bussed in...I just hope that they go with our monolithic dome design...
I wanted to re-post this...I hope the interior sketches appear here. I wanted to point out that there could be other tenants besides VU...AHL or ECHL hockey, NBA D-League...perhaps Arena League 2(if it still exists). Also, we were talking about locating our plan at Eastport Center...very close to the VU campus. The thing we learned in our informal study on whether students would go off campus for a game is that if there was a way to get there easily and for free, they'd go.
I'd be all for it if it is within 5 minutes of campus. Since I haven't been back for a few years, where is Eastport Center?
Quote from: valpotx on July 01, 2014, 01:42:13 AMI'd be all for it if it is within 5 minutes of campus. Since I haven't been back for a few years, where is Eastport Center?
It's just east of Highway 49. If you turn right instead of left (as if you were going to the Cinemark Theater or JC Penney) off Indiana Highway 2. There are several sights off that street which are all within 5 minutes of campus.
To get to the dome building you turn right on Mariposa Dr just south of Highway 2 and follow it till it ends up at the dome. You can barely make out the dome in this Google Streetview from Eastport Centre Drive.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Eastport+Centre+Dr/@41.465593,-87.018112,3a,75y,270h,90t/data= (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Eastport+Centre+Dr/@41.465593,-87.018112,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=)!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sx85fU3sO9sD-eNr4oMOg_A!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x88119bb57b7fe64f:0x15cfe33a213b28a2
Here is a Google Map of the area
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Eastport+Centre+Dr/@41.4659996,-87.0180252,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x88119bb57b7fe64f:0x15cfe33a213b28a2
What ever happened to this. ???
This was in the Chesterton Tribune 4 months ago on 9/9/2014.
http://chestertontribune.com/Business/multimillion_dollar_sports_arena.htm (http://chestertontribune.com/Business/multimillion_dollar_sports_arena.htm)
Multimillion dollar sports arena eyed for Chesterton
By JEFF SCHULTZ
The Porter County Convention, Recreation and Visitors Commission has written a letter of support for the non-profit "Duneland Sports Authority" which is trying to secure grants to build a large sports arena, planned along the frontage of I-80 near the Ind. 49 bypass in Coffee Creek.
Paul Boardman, chairman and founder of DSA, presented conceptual drawings at a recent PCCRVC meeting for an arena with space for hockey with seating for 6,000, basketball with 7,000 seats, and center stage concerts with 8,000 seats, designed for family multi-use entertainment.
The arena will stand out from all others like it, Boardman said, because it will be first in the world built to meet LEED platinum certification, with green initiatives to generate its own power.
If the plan gets off the ground, Boardman said construction costs could be in the range of more than $86 million. Targeted completion date is fall of 2017.
Boardman, a LaPorte native and alumnus of Valparaiso University, said preliminary figures indicate the construction could bring an immediate 250 short-term jobs to the area, and provide as many as 1,500 sustainable jobs once the arena opens.
"Duneland arena is all about our children, inspiring them to grow their talents and providing local career opportunities," Boardman said.
The arena would be available for use by high school teams, youth leagues, college and professional teams, for practices and tournaments, Boardman said, and could host up to 120 professional and amateur sporting events per year, according to a feasibility study finished last year called "Game On!" paid for by DSA.
Over the last five years or so, there have been reports of several proposals by different groups hoping to build a large sports arena somewhere in Northwest Indiana. One group in particular Persistence LLC of Portage, announced plans in 2010 for a $40 million sports arena at the Toll Road entrance of Ind. 49, with the intention of holding regional and national tournaments, using pressurized domes. That project fell through as Persistence was not able to procure the necessary bonds in time.
Boardman, who said he is not affiliated with Persistence LLC, believes a non-profit entity like DSA can succeed where profit-making groups have failed, filtering money back into the community. The mission of DSA, he said, is to support youth sports with revenues above operating expenses. Porter County or the Town of Chesterton would be the terminal beneficiary, Boardman said.
Boardman said evidence shows a large demand for a venue for youth sports between Chicago and South Bend, the second most populous area in the state next to Indianapolis.
"At the time when I was inspired to begin this project and today, I believed then and believe now that a Northwest Indiana arena is inevitable. The question is: will it be ours or someone else's? Will it serve us, bringing resources into the community while providing excellent entertainment, or serve someone else who extracts from us and provides the least entertainment value?" Boardman said.
After nearly 200 meetings with interested parties in the community since January 2013, Boardman said a business model has taken shape that the arena would be family friendly, employ locally, source concessions locally, and be available for any local sporting event or tournament, concerts and other events, including trade shows.
He also wants to ensure the project is self-sustaining and can be built before competitors like a casino or similar industry decides to build an arena of this scope.
"I believe that this eventuality would be an enormous social and financial drain to the NW Indiana community," Boardman said.
"From our studies, it is clear that Northwest Indiana can support one arena of this size. Once that niche is taken, it is virtually impossible to justify building another arena of the 6k-10k capacity in NW Indiana to serve us."
Boardman said he would like to situate the DSA arena on 13 acres along I-80 near the medical buildings in Coffee Creek Center, but it could go elsewhere if the Town of Chesterton decides against that location. Boardman asserts Coffee Creek "has the right feel, allows great event flexibility for local, NCAA and professional sports, concerts and pep rallies for the U.S. Army, U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Navy."
Boardman said no local tax dollars will be used to build the arena. Much of the cost will be covered by a wide consortium of private capital partnerships and grants.
A grant from the state of Indiana could give the project the boost it needs, which is why Boardman is seeking letters of support to meet the requirements. Along with the County Tourism board, the City of Valparaiso and Valparaiso University have issued letters of support.
Lake Erie Land is currently in talks with Boardman about providing the space necessary for parking. DSA wants to include "green parking" to compliment the LEED structure of the arena and share the space with other developments to decrease its parking and traffic footprint.
Porter County Government has taken an interest in beefing up sports tourism. Last year the Board of Commissioners established a "sports cabinet" to work with the tourism bureau to boost the local economy by trying to make the county a destination for amateur sports.
PCCRVC Executive Director Lorelei Weimer said a feasibility study for the county sports center has been completed by the Minneapolis-based Conventions, Sports and Leisure International (CSL), but the Commissioners and stakeholders are discussing the findings before the information is released to the public.
Posted 9/9/2014
It is hard to quickly calculate how unrealistic and poor this plan is.
A non-profit with "a wide consortium of private capital partnerships and grants"? How realistic is that that?
The City of Valparaiso and Valparaiso University sign a letter of support. Restated, "sure, we'll support you building this at no cost to us and we will consider it as a venue for any events along with all other existing options". No commitment and no real plan that any sane business person would support where revenues are realistically achieveable to at least come close to covering costs.
1,500 sustainable jobs? I would love to see the math behind that.
"Duneland Arena is all about our children". Give me a break. This guy is just throwing out any cliche' in hopes that something will stick to gain interest. Perhaps he is a good guy that is just tilting at windmills, but this is such a poor idea and plan that no one in their right mind would support it.
Yeah, there's 0% chance this happens. This plan would require either a substantial TIF district (impossible given the population of Chesterton/Valpo), or a new sales tax from Porter County (also impossible). Arenas typically don't generate enough profits to justify the massive building cost. That's why there's virtually no arenas built without significant tax money. If arenas made an exorbitant amount of money, there would be private investors flocking to build arenas all over the country. This statement was particularly laughable: "He also wants to ensure the project is self-sustaining and can be built before competitors like a casino or similar industry decides to build an arena of this scope." Really?
Valpo and the ARC get most mentions as the place to play in the Horizon League:
http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/feature-road-games (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/feature-road-games)