Poll
Question:
Do you wish Butler were still in the Horizon League?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 17
Option 2: No
votes: 4
Option 3: Doesn't matter to me
votes: 4
Since we have a little break in the action, I thought it might be interesting to do a poll:
Butler has been such a big part of the HL discussion since we've been in the league (and well beyond). Now they're doing their thing in the A-10, and doing it very well. Given that we're well into our first season without them, I'm curious as to what everyone is thinking. Do you miss having Butler in the league and the huge presence they had?
All thoughts and opinions from all HL fans welcome and respected...
Doesn't matter whether or not they are in the league. I do enjoy talking about them again when the topic pops up, though
No, if the Bulls trade Butler they would get along fine without him.
Oh, do you mean the new computer software tool?
http://manytricks.com/butler/ (http://manytricks.com/butler/)
but·ler [buht-ler]
noun
1.
the chief male servant of a household, usually in charge of serving food, the care of silverware, etc.
2.
a male servant having charge of the wines and liquors.
For your enjoyment a short news piece from channel 10 in Philadelphia on the Butler at LaSalle game:
http://nbcphiladelphia.csnphilly.com/video_content_type/la-salle-vs-butler-highlights-123 (http://nbcphiladelphia.csnphilly.com/video_content_type/la-salle-vs-butler-highlights-123)
Talk about high school gyms, the Explorers' gym is even worse than the ARC. You could make a lay-up and be out the door and in the bus in 10 seconds.
I think you all know how I truly feel.
Maybe the better question is whether the Valpo ticket office misses Butler. Given that they were a guaranteed sellout every time they came to the ARC, I'd say the answer is "yes".
I miss the crowds that Butler generated for us, as I have been disappointed with our other HL attendance figures, outside of the WSU game the other day. I also miss adding to our streak against them :).
Also, how weird is it that our average home attendance was 2,803 going into the GB game, and that game's attendance was '2,803' as well?
Quote from: valpotx on January 24, 2013, 03:38:32 PM
Also, how weird is it that our average home attendance was 2,803 going into the GB game, and that game's attendance was '2,803' as well?
I've heard people use the term "an average crowd", but that's crazy. ???
Do I miss them? I think it would be fun to get them on a home and home basis for old times sake.... don't see it happening... until the A17 collapses and they need a new conference.... again. My hats off to Stevens. He's got a few more years of consistency to hit the 'Zags level that Mark Few has attained... gotta admit, the atmosphere in the ARC when THEY came was absolutely electric.... and no hype was needed. if only we could get that helmet back!
The Horizon is unquestionably not as good a league without Butler, gets less national attention, and every team is deprived of one of its best home draws. I suppose some people may not miss Butler, but I don't see how anyone could suggest that the loss of Butler doesn't hurt the Horizon and, frankly, all of the programs remaining in the Horizon.
Yes
If we got paired with them in the tourney I like the fact that there should be no fear from our guys in playing them. We would have the familiarity and confidence to make it an epic game.
First off, I agree with FWalum when he says that there would be no intimidation if any HL team got paired with Butler in the tournament. I would be very nervous about the pairing, as all HL teams know how to effectively play against the Dawgs.
Secondly, even with a bad Butler team last year, they still were able to outdraw all other HL home games, both in and out of conference except for 2 instances. One was Milwaukee playing against Wisconsin, and the other was Detroit vs. St. Johns when they had the court dedication to Dick Vitale. Butler outdrew average crowds by 1.5 to 2 times for all Horizon League teams. In the year so far since Butler has left the Horizon, crowds are down by about 440 fans across the board, which isn't a lot, but amounts to about a 14% decrease in average attendance from last year. While I'm sure you don't miss our fans, our players and coaching staff know just how difficult it was to compete in the HL if you watch the postgame presser from last night after the Temple game. http://www.butlersports.com/sports/m-baskbl/2012-13/videos/20130126-qsh2ftte (http://www.butlersports.com/sports/m-baskbl/2012-13/videos/20130126-qsh2ftte) (It's just over halfway through the video if you want to check it out)
In terms of Butler's attendance, thus far this year they have increased their crowd size on average by 960 fans and have had 2 sellouts thus far and should have 3 more this season.
The biggest thing I miss about the HL is the quality web feed. Watching the LaSalle game the other night was just awful because of the job their web production team did.
Congrats on your success so far this season and good luck the rest of the way. If our teams should meet up in the tourney, I know it will be anything but easy.
Of course we miss Butler. I was never very happy with their fans, but they were a long standing (the longest) rival of ours and we were just getting rolling toward evening up the historic score! ;)
In our case the attendance is a product of the competition. Nonetheless, as the fans are realizing how good we are, the crowds are starting to grow--witness the Wright State game and almost 5000 people.
Butler was a great draw for us because of their national success and ranking, but probably as much because of their physical location, which allowed many of the Butler faithful to make the drive.
Now, next year I would expect our non-conference schedule to draw much better than this year in that the games won't be against Georgia Southern, Chicago State and IPFW, but rather, St. Louis, Murray State and New Mexico.
Lastly I'd like to clarify why I'm not a coach. I watched Butler take apart Temple and the difference between this year's Dawgs and last year's is very impressive. Clearly adding Rotnei and Dunham have totally transformed the team which otherwise is probably about the same as last year's. My hats off to them. They would be a very tough team to play, but I'd still love a shot! ;D
Butler falls to Charlotte 71-67 at Hinkle Fieldhouse. Clarke had 18 points. The most problematic thing for the Bulldogs was that with Andrew "he's no Luck" Smith out they got absolutely no points from their bench.
I
Quote from: bbtds on February 13, 2013, 11:14:40 PMButler falls to Charlotte 71-67 at Hinkle Fieldhouse. Clarke had 18 points. The most problematic thing for the Bulldogs was that with Andrew "he's no Luck" Smith out they got absolutely no points from their bench.
I find all these threads about Butler quite comical.
Me too, I laugh every time Butler loses ;D
Coming back to the title of the thread. If we manage, this season, to win a game in the Big Dance then I'll probably selfishly manage not to miss Butler.
It would/will be fine to get back to the NCAA tournament. But, a low seed will be disappointing...
I think I could be satisfied with runs in other post-season tournaments, finishing behind Butler in the conference tourney, until we really had an at-large caliber team. Which having Butler in the conference might help produce.
Quote from: agibson on February 14, 2013, 12:34:54 PM
Coming back to the title of the thread. If we manage, this season, to win a game in the Big Dance then I'll probably selfishly manage not to miss Butler.
It would/will be fine to get back to the NCAA tournament. But, a low seed will be disappointing...
I think I could be satisfied with runs in other post-season tournaments, finishing behind Butler in the conference tourney, until we really had an at-large caliber team. Which having Butler in the conference might help produce.
What it would have done is give us two more games against a very good rpi team and thus we would have had to drop two other lower quality rpi teams. Obviously win, lose or draw our pri would have been higher. Presuming we make the dance it would have helped seeding. If we didn't we still wouldn't have been considered for an at large and as a result it really wouldn't have mattered.
If anything, I miss Butler for the Indiana rivalry, but in terms of what they mean to the conference? The conference just needs to have some time to get each team built up to playing better quality basketball in what is now a very wide-open league. Once Valpo's current lineup of seniors graduates, it's time for the conference to realize that we have to work together to make our collective play better, so that we can all be a stronger conference that doesn't have to be defined by the fact that Butler left, but that we collectively put out a better brand of basketball regionally, that will get some of the top 10 rpi conferences to want to play, to help their abilty to distance their play from the idea that "parity has overtaken the landscape of college basketball". I don't think it is parity that has changed college basketball, as much as the attitude of high school stars coming in and polluting the landscape for one year, then jumping to the NBA.
Folks -- one and doners have a very negligible effect on the overall college basketball landscape. They are concentrated in the power 6 conference. If you consider that only about 60 players are drafted each year, and of those a portion are foreign players and non-NCAA D1 1 year players, and there are over 4000 players in D1 alone, there are less than 1% of the total college population each year that are affected by this rule. Yet, we (the collective sports industry) spends a hugely disproportionate amount of time talking about that issue. Even among the freshman class (which would be somewhere around 800-1000 players), it's probably less than 5% of all freshman that are affected by the rule.
I miss the Butler rivalry, but they are the ones that continually run from us. ( ;D). We lived perfectly fine for many years without the rivalry. Would be glad to see one with Northwestern or DePaul, but again they're afraid to play at the ARC.
After the game tonight, the answer is "No." We'd have lost by 40 if we played Butler instead of Detroit.
No, that is just being overly dramatic. Butler is not Duke or UNC...
Quote from: valpotx on February 16, 2013, 07:46:08 PM
No, that is just being overly dramatic. Butler is not Duke or UNC...
Speaking of Duke...
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2wnr4uq.jpg)
Quote from: valpo04 on February 16, 2013, 08:15:46 PM
Quote from: valpotx on February 16, 2013, 07:46:08 PM
No, that is just being overly dramatic. Butler is not Duke or UNC...
Speaking of Duke...
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2wnr4uq.jpg)
them's might be fightin words with govalpogo....
Butler stays in the game till the end but falls again to the Saint Louis Billikens 65-61.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQFMqFKOzrlgKzGO6do6-B-B-KRu3T2ZlxpDsvojkG7Mq8azy_7qA)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSExF_RQl-YkAM8vctkD70Ct2VmZrVQYRmfMXysjmSioXw_xkReBQ)
even the kittens from the Detroit loss are laughing uncontrollably!!!
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR0GtJDzZJSwacXZ8H2V3ZySLen6ARgJcdEwk4QMpAX4antPfhcjA)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvlpPXbWCKYTfKDcO9_tGhbgaXtMiJAcGfRTWwue5tNqboTvDiaQ)
Butler has to be careful or they could find themselves in a somewhat precarious position. They close out the regular season with 3 difficult games, none of which are sure wins by any means. Ending the regular season on a 4 game losing streak would cause their RPI and win/loss record to take a nose dive, and give them a bad seed in their tournament. With the Mountain West ranked as the top RPI conference in D-1 with as many as 4 teams potentially making the tournament, Butler could find itself on the outside looking in.
We owe a debt of thanks to LVD's old Foreman teammate, Mike McCall, who poured in 18, or 5 more than Rotnei.
You have to give Rotnei and Dunham credit. They have incredible range and quick releases. Don't think I've seen anything quite like Clarke, who is playing out of position.
Quote from: bbtds on February 22, 2013, 11:39:57 PMeven the kittens from the Detroit loss are laughing uncontrollably!!!
made my day.
72, I do think it's at least safe to say that Rotnei Clarke is the Greatest Player Ever Who You Thought Was Black At First But Then Turned Out To Be Inexplicably White.
Yes, I miss Butler. They gave the HL some name recognition. Until last year...what conference could say that they produced the last 2 national finalist?
I'm glad they didn't jump into the A10 and win it though. It looks like St. Louis will win which is okay with me as we lost to them and it will help rpi.
They are currently getting it handed to them by VCU as well...55-35 with 15' left
I think they were drilled by 30. I'm wondering if, say, they lose in the first or second rounds of their tourney, is there a chance they don't make the dance?
The Bulldogs lost, 84-52, a 32-point drubbing. The worst loss under Brad Stevens. Are there any byes in the A-10 that Butler qualifies for?
a "good" comes to mind...
Quote from: vu72 on March 02, 2013, 01:51:51 PM
I think they were drilled by 30. I'm wondering if, say, they lose in the first or second rounds of their tourney, is there a chance they don't make the dance?
Of course, if anyone gets a nod on the bubble its march madness butler.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 02, 2013, 04:32:55 PM
Of course, if anyone gets a none on the bubble its march madness butler.
Spot on ... couldn't have stated it better myself. :thumbsup:
Also they have wins over both #1 Gonzaga and #2 Indiana. Those two wins alone are a good reason why Butler as a bubble team would make the Big Dance. Okay not those two wins alone but a pretty good won/loss record too.
Quote from: valporun on March 02, 2013, 01:57:28 PM
The Bulldogs lost, 84-52, a 32-point drubbing. The worst loss under Brad Stevens. Are there any byes in the A-10 that Butler qualifies for?
Top 12 teams in A-10 make the tourney, with the top 4 teams getting a single bye. Games played on back-to-back days ... Thursday through Selection Sunday. Butler is currently tied for the 4th spot with Temple and hold the tie-breaker. They are one game ahead of UMass and Xavier, who they face in their last two games. Obviously, things are still up in the air.
Quote from: vu72 on March 02, 2013, 01:51:51 PM
I think they were drilled by 30. I'm wondering if, say, they lose in the first or second rounds of their tourney, is there a chance they don't make the dance?
Bad loss today, but Butler remains at #30 in the RPI. Butler has been vulnerable to pressure defense, and nobody does that better than VCU. It was also another "t-shirt game" and the 7th sellout in 7 A-10 road games ... they act like Butler's going somewhere! :-[ I wasn't surprised at the loss, but was disappointed with the effort.
With that said, Butler doesn't have a loss outside of the top 100 RPI and are 5-5 vs. top 50 and 2-2 vs. 51-100. They aren't on the bubble yet, but if they lose their last two and first in the tourney, could slip above 50 RPI and would be in big trouble, IMO. But if they do that, they probably wouldn't deserve to be in anyway.
Quote from: zvillehaze on March 02, 2013, 10:35:46 PM
Quote from: valporun on March 02, 2013, 01:57:28 PM
The Bulldogs lost, 84-52, a 32-point drubbing. The worst loss under Brad Stevens. Are there any byes in the A-10 that Butler qualifies for?
Top 12 teams in A-10 make the tourney, with the top 4 teams getting a single bye. Games played on back-to-back days ... Thursday through Selection Sunday. Butler is currently tied for the 4th spot with Temple and hold the tie-breaker. They are one game ahead of UMass and Xavier, who they face in their last two games. Obviously, things are still up in the air.
Quote from: vu72 on March 02, 2013, 01:51:51 PM
I think they were drilled by 30. I'm wondering if, say, they lose in the first or second rounds of their tourney, is there a chance they don't make the dance?
Bad loss today, but Butler remains at #30 in the RPI. Butler has been vulnerable to pressure defense, and nobody does that better than VCU. It was also another "t-shirt game" and the 7th sellout in 7 A-10 road games ... they act like Butler's going somewhere! :-[ I wasn't surprised at the loss, but was disappointed with the effort.
With that said, Butler doesn't have a loss outside of the top 100 RPI and are 5-5 vs. top 50 and 2-2 vs. 51-100. They aren't on the bubble yet, but if they lose their last two and first in the tourney, could slip above 50 RPI and would be in big trouble, IMO. But if they do that, they probably wouldn't deserve to be in anyway.
I'm super impressed with SLU. Watched them obliterate both of these teams in person (at home, I mean). I was not surprised to see a much tougher game at Hinkle.
Quote from: StlVUFan on March 02, 2013, 11:00:56 PMI'm super impressed with SLU. Watched them obliterate both of these teams in person (at home, I mean). I was not surprised to see a much tougher game at Hinkle.
I totally agree ... SLU has proven to be the class of the A-10 and will not go home in March (or April) until someone matches their toughness for 40 minutes and truly beats them. It was unfortunate for Butler that SLU was the one team they had to play twice because SLU is really good.
Just saw this posted on the Saint Louis board:
Look at Butler, if those 2 seasons (Final Four seasons) were one and done, we look at them the way we look at Valpo.
I suppose I understand this SLU poster's thinking but that hit like a dagger since Valpo started out a lot like Butler started and were rivals.
Oh, to have back Nebraska, Oakland and Loyola. With those three in the win column, we'd be 27-4. And even if we were to lose in the HL final in a tight one, we might have squeaked in as an at-large, no?
Quote from: bbtds on March 03, 2013, 03:45:19 AMLook at Butler, if those 2 seasons (Final Four seasons) were one and done, we look at them the way we look at Valpo.
how embarrassing for that ignorant fan. look, if YOU hadn't been last year, and won a game, we'd be looking at SLU the way we look at Valpo.
('cept without the love in our eyes, of course.)
EDIT: no, wait, check that. you have won precisely the same number of NCAA games as we have since 1996. if you weren't Catholic, you'd never be invited to the C-7. you're ridiculous.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 03, 2013, 07:57:00 AM
Oh, to have back Nebraska, Oakland and Loyola. With those three in the win column, we'd be 27-4. And even if we were to lose in the HL final in a tight one, we might have squeaked in as an at-large, no?
We had a huge 20 point comeback to Detroit, a comeback to Wright State, and a late game miracle at Kent State that all could have been in the loss column easily.
Quote from: a3uge on March 03, 2013, 09:39:08 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 03, 2013, 07:57:00 AM
Oh, to have back Nebraska, Oakland and Loyola. With those three in the win column, we'd be 27-4. And even if we were to lose in the HL final in a tight one, we might have squeaked in as an at-large, no?
We had a huge 20 point comeback to Detroit, a comeback to Wright State, and a late game miracle at Kent State that all could have been in the loss column easily.
True, but IF we were 27-4 now in the scenario I mentioned, might we squeak in as an at-large is all I'm asking? OOC SOS might be a problem.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 03, 2013, 09:32:32 AM
Quote from: bbtds on March 03, 2013, 03:45:19 AMLook at Butler, if those 2 seasons (Final Four seasons) were one and done, we look at them the way we look at Valpo.
how embarrassing for that ignorant fan. look, if YOU hadn't been last year, and won a game, we'd be looking at SLU the way we look at Valpo.
('cept without the love in our eyes, of course.)
EDIT: no, wait, check that. you have won precisely the same number of NCAA games as we have since 1996. if you weren't Catholic, you'd never be invited to the C-7. you're ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure the average fan doesn't know SLU has a decent basketball team. They will remember Butler for their 2 large runs, and people will not forget that. Look at UWM... they made the sweet 16 a couple years back and that name is completely lost in the eyes of an average fan. That guys acting like they have made continuous sweet 16 runs and tournament appearances.
Quote from: bbtds on March 03, 2013, 09:49:19 AMQuote from: bbtds on Today at 04:45:19 AM
Look at Butler, if those 2 seasons (Final Four seasons) were one and done, we look at them the way we look at Valpo.
Look at Germany, if those 2 wars (the World ones) were won and done, we look at them the way we look at the US.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 03, 2013, 09:42:27 AM
Quote from: a3uge on March 03, 2013, 09:39:08 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 03, 2013, 07:57:00 AM
Oh, to have back Nebraska, Oakland and Loyola. With those three in the win column, we'd be 27-4. And even if we were to lose in the HL final in a tight one, we might have squeaked in as an at-large, no?
We had a huge 20 point comeback to Detroit, a comeback to Wright State, and a late game miracle at Kent State that all could have been in the loss column easily.
True, but IF we were 27-4 now in the scenario I mentioned, might we squeak in as an at-large is all I'm asking? OOC SOS might be a problem.
I don't know, but you can bet it would be a huge (and exciting) topic of discussion on our board about now. It's too bad we weren't playing then the way we are now - probably none of the OOC losses you mentioned would have occurred. We would probably be thinking about a better seed than 12-15, as well. That said, we're peaking at the right time and there is much to be positive about.
Interesting comment from Jeff Goodman (College Basketball Insider) in the aftermath of yesterday's VCU win over Butler:
VCU is the superior team, though. Butler has had its share of impressive wins this season, but this could be Stevens' most impressive regular-season coaching job. There are no Gordon Haywards, Shelvin Macks or even Matt Howards in this group -- and he's no longer feasting on Horizon League cupcakes. There was no one to handle the Rams' vaunted press.
Apparently, Jeff isn't aware that Butler also struggled last year in the "lowly" Horizon League. Not only did they not "feast" on HL cupcakes, 2 teams - Valpo and Detroit - feasted on them. Butler lost all 5 games by an average of 10 points.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/21799127/vcus-beatdown-of-butler-a-showing-of-what-the-a-10-gained-will-lose (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/21799127/vcus-beatdown-of-butler-a-showing-of-what-the-a-10-gained-will-lose)
He would also know that during their last championship game run, they lost to Valpo as well.
Yet another well researched article. Stevens has done an impressive job however, taking his team from fourth in the Horizon to fourth in the A-10. ;)
Quote from: wh on March 03, 2013, 06:59:40 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 03, 2013, 09:42:27 AM
Quote from: a3uge on March 03, 2013, 09:39:08 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 03, 2013, 07:57:00 AM
Oh, to have back Nebraska, Oakland and Loyola. With those three in the win column, we'd be 27-4. And even if we were to lose in the HL final in a tight one, we might have squeaked in as an at-large, no?
We had a huge 20 point comeback to Detroit, a comeback to Wright State, and a late game miracle at Kent State that all could have been in the loss column easily.
True, but IF we were 27-4 now in the scenario I mentioned, might we squeak in as an at-large is all I'm asking? OOC SOS might be a problem.
I don't know, but you can bet it would be a huge (and exciting) topic of discussion on our board about now. It's too bad we weren't playing then the way we are now - probably none of the OOC losses you mentioned would have occurred. We would probably be thinking about a better seed than 12-15, as well. That said, we're peaking at the right time and there is much to be positive about.
Yes, much to be positive about. We need to get this winning streak up to 8!
Those three losses, as well as the YSU loss, are all games that Butler during their streak would find ways to win.
I missed seeing Butler in the top 25 today... What happened?
They are presently in free fall, but for all anyone knows they could turn things around starting Thursday. They are having a highly schizophrenic season.
Quote from: Kyle321n on March 04, 2013, 05:09:09 PM
I missed seeing Butler in the top 25 today... What happened?
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=330612670 (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=330612670)
Irony is hard to on a forum
Let me show you show you and some other posters the difference between sarcasm and blissful ignorance.
Quote from: Kyle321n on March 04, 2013, 05:09:09 PM
I missed seeing Butler in the top 25 today... What happened?
Quote from: Kyle321n on March 04, 2013, 05:09:09 PM
I missed seeing Butler in the top 25 today... What happened? ;D
See how different the second comment looks?
Quote from: wh on March 04, 2013, 05:25:32 PM
They are presently in free fall, but for all anyone knows they could turn things around starting Thursday. They are having a highly schizophrenic season.
You called this one ... double-digit road win over #55 RPI UMass. They've lost some games, but they still don't have many "bad losses". Worst is a road loss to #84 Xavier back in November. Still hanging at #25 in RPI.
Don't crush me for reopening this thread but I didn't know where to put this comment.
I miss playing the Butler because they were a great rivalry and a Boost to Conference RPI, but I don't miss the arrogance of their fan-base. Just saw this post tweet by Matt Norlander, stating that Scott Drew would not be interested in the Butler job.
Click on this tweet and read the idiocy and smugness of the Butler fans. Apparently Butler is too good for Butler fans. Man I hope Butler sucks next year. I forgot how many douche-bags were in the Butler fan-base... but I was just reminded.
https://twitter.com/MattNorlander/status/873181401637675008
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/873275467759067136
LOL. I love the thought that Scott would even consider Butler because he's an alum. Wasn't Scott famously relieved of his duties as a student manager by Butler's basketball coach when he was caught clapping for his dad's team during a Valpo-Butler game back in the early 90s?
If I recall the story correctly, Scott refused to apologize for it, and noted to the BU coach with typical humor that if his dad got fired (VU hadn't had a winning season yet under Homer at the time), he'd have to leave college anyway. So he was rooting for his dad, period.
In any case, the notion that Scott has fuzzy affection for his time at BU -- enough to leave the Power 5 job he's built over 15 years, no less! -- is just laughable.