The season for high school seniors to be making their college choices is winding down. Three times in the last month I have heard proud parents tell me their kids were considering Notre Dame or St. Olaf; Northwestern or Calvin; and, finally, Georgetown or Butler.
Is it just me, or does VU not enjoy the same sort of reputation as the smaller schools listed above? St. Olaf I can understand, since it is located a lot closer to where I live than VU. But I never seem to hear that a kid is considering, for instance, Northwestern or Valparaiso. Or, for that matter, St. Olaf or Valparaiso.
I overheard President Harre once say that he thought the Board of Directors he was dealing with at the time had an inferiority complex about VU. I'm wondering: is this true of me? Of most of those who have attended VU? Has this attitude somehow seeped into the general public, where we are considered OK, but not a top notch private school?
I know that when the first US News College Ranking came out in 1988, VU was rated #1 -- and the only criteria at that time was our academic reputation. I think that reputation has taken a hit over the years, since in our category in the US News we have fallen from #1 to I think #6 last year. That is not a good trend. I have yet to hear President Heckler address this. He should.
Help me out with this. Perhaps those who live in Indiana/Illinois have a different take on the VU reputation. When I was in school in 74-78, our reputation was that it was an expensive place to attend. And that we had a dedicated, top notch faculty.
Paul
Hard to say really. The facts show that the number of applications is way up and the quality of students entering is at an all time high, gpa and SAT score wise.
Having done many college fairs for Valpo I can tell you that there is plenty of interest in Valpo even as far away as Texas. Some students who actually research schools who will be a good fit for their area of study will find Valpo very highly ranked. Other kids simply decide based on perhaps where their friends are going or if its close to home.
Valpo has certain majors where they are very highly ranked such as meteorology or engineering. St. Olaf may have a nursing PROGRAM or DEPARTMENT, but not a nursing COLLEGE. The same can be said for Business and Engineering. St. Olaf shares nursing instructors with Gustavus while Valpo has a dedicated full time staff. If you were at St. Olaf and wanted an engineering degree, you would have to transfer to the University of Minnesota half way through your education as St. Olaf can't give out engineering degrees. Other small private schools may offer a business minor with an economics degree, but not a degree in accounting or finance which so many employers seek.
I've often said that a kid can't want to come to Valpo if he has never heard of it. I'm convinced President Heckler and his pretty much entirely new team has recognized this and is working on it. With our sports teams getting national exposure, it helps a lot versus a St. Olaf or Calvin.
Could be that we are comparing different fruit here as well. My primary frame of reference is New England, but certain themes may apply universally.
# The typical DIII Liberal Arts colleges like Williams, Middlebury, Colby, DePauw, St. Olaf, Gettysburg, or Swarthmore attract a certain demographic.
Those kids will focus there and exclude others and reach for the Ivies. VU doesn't fit there.
# Georgetown is well respected as a Catholic/Jesuit national university (like ND and BC) with very high admission standards. Except for admission standards, VU doesn't fit there either (along with a bunch of Catholic universities)
# Northwestern is big-time private and has a national rep like Stanford, USC, Duke, WF and Vandy. No fit for VU there as well.
IMO, VU is a 'tweener' like Butler. But Butler has two MBB final appearances and a mascot that gets USAToday national coverage when it shows up in Madison Square Garden. VU is not there YET.
Part of the issue may be that Lutheranism is highly fragmented and precludes the emergence of a single major 'Lutheran' national university (analogous to a Brigham Young [Mormon] or Baylor [Baptist]). On the other hand we do quite well recognition-wise vs. schools like Liberty or ORU.
Here's my $0.02. It has been said that athletics are the front porch of a university from an exposure standpoint.
You mentioned Northwestern, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Butler and Valparaiso at the Division I level. All are private. More importantly, which one of the five has the lousiest athletic facilities? Which one plays in a conference that has the least amount of media exposure comparatively?
Think about that for a moment.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2014, 11:35:07 AM
Here's my $0.02. It has been said that athletics are the front porch of a university from an exposure standpoint.
You mentioned Northwestern, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Butler and Valparaiso at the Division I level. All are private. More importantly, which one of the five has the lousiest athletic facilities? Which one plays in a conference that has the least amount of media exposure comparatively?
Think about that for a moment.
Err I think decent athletic facilities is more of endowment/enrollment along with geography. It's not like Valpo will turn into Georgetown if they build an arena the size of the Verizon Center, and it's not like Georgetown/Notre Dame/Northwestern are well known because of athletics. It's not like Valpo is going to be able to dish $100 million into a new arena with its limitations in enrollment, endowment and geography. All of these schools sans Butler had huge enrollments and national prominence way before athletics were even around.
While decent athletics can gain a school huge exposure, thinking Valpo will ever turn into a school like Northwestern, Georgetown, or Notre Dame from athletics is silly.
And I think the 'facilities' argument gets overstated a little bit. There's only been a handful of private schools that have moved to new arenas in the past 10 years - Campbell, Samford, Monmouth, Quinnipiac, and LIU - yup, 'nuff said, SLU - after a huge donation from a guy that was bidding for a $550 million NBA franchise, and Evansville - which they didn't pay any construction costs for. In order for Valpo to build an arena with a capacity of 5,000+, they'll need $50 million minimum. Towson's 5,200 seat arena cost $62 million (of which $57 million was public funding through state bonds). It's impractical to think Valpo will ever privately fund an arena for $50+ million, and I don't think there's a donor willing to dish out $15 million+ for one. Furthermore, even if Valpo did manage to build a new arena, there's little evidence to suggest that it will have a significant impact on team performance - the best arena in the HL is the Resch Center, and UWGB hasn't made the tourney since it was built. If you scroll up and down the list of arenas in college basketball, it's hard to find a significant cause and effect between new facility and performance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_basketball_arenas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_basketball_arenas)).
But I do think the University would benefit from a new field house for all students - this will be cheaper than a state-of-the-art basketball arena and doesn't have to include seats. Then they could renovate the ARC to remove the track, fix the seats, build out the concourse, etc. I just don't think it's practical to build a completely new arena (not that you were necessarily advocating that).
That's all fine and good, but we're not talking about the correlation between new construction and athletic performance. What '78 asked was why students are not considering VU relative to the schools that he mentioned. Of all of the D-I schools, VU is the weakest as far as athletic media outreach and the resulting footprint from that outreach. That is partly the answer to his question.
Notre Dame is not well known because of its athletics? Huh?
Georgetown? I had no idea what a "hoya" was until they lost in the title game to UNC in the early '80s. They are not well known for basketball?
You allude in your post that it is impractical for a school like VU to spend money on athletics to expand its university's media footprint but yet there are schools out there that are spending millions of dollars to reclassify from FCS to FBS--even if it means that their football and athletic departments might operate at a loss. Those that do operate at a loss or at a push at the FBS level still have no intention of ever moving down to FCS to save money. Why? Because of the level of the exposure that comes with that status, that's why. Hell, Georgia Southern has six, six FCS NCAA National Titles, and they are still seeking greater media coverage relative to athletics:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/22014717/eyeing-more-exposure-fcs-power-georgia-southern-ready-for-fbs-leap (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/22014717/eyeing-more-exposure-fcs-power-georgia-southern-ready-for-fbs-leap)
That's a power move if I ever saw one.
Am I suggesting that VU should build a $50 M dollar facility? No. Am I suggesting that VU will ever turn into a Notre Dame, Northwestern or Georgetown? Nope. But at the same time, let's be crystal clear. Athletics are absolutely important.
Many here chastised the MVC for selecting Loyola--except that Loyola spent (or is in the process of spending) something like $100M on athletic and academic upgrades. They've revamped their basketball arena twice in 20 years. And Valpo's contribution to its flagship sport? A new floor and a new video board.
I understand the point you are trying to make. I'm sure you get my point too.
Joe -- I read the article about GSU football going FBS and one paragraph struck me:
Spoken by the GSU president:
"I love the FCS and I love that level of competitive sports," said Keel, who was a vice-chancellor at LSU before he become the Georgia Southern president. "But the fact is that ESPN doesn't love it. Our goal is to move Georgia Southern from a regional to a national brand. This (moving to the Sun Belt) gives us a chance to do that. This gives us a chance to market our university on a national platform."
"I love the FCS and I love that level of competitive sports," said Keel, ......... "But the fact is that ESPN doesn't love it." I think the same could be said for middle of the road mid-majors. In that respect, VU needs to get to the Wichita State, Gonzaga, Butler (before they imploded) level of recognition to be thought of as a national university (had our chance, like FGCU, when we made the sweet 16, but failed to act - FGCU acted.). :twocents:
Speaking of the Zags (total enrollment -- 7,691, Undergrads -- 4,896), I scraped this from their website: "Gonzaga Basketball shot over to the newly built, $25 million, 148,000 ft2 McCarthey Athletic Center. Completed in November 2004, the McCarthey Athletic Center has a seating capacity of 6,000 for basketball games. All seats are individual and have arm and backrests." A rennovated ARC could be like that at a portion of the cost. :twocents:
What I was trying to figure out is why, for instance, kids apply to Northwestern and St. Olaf, rather than Northwestern and Valparaiso. Or Georgetown and Butler, instead of Georgetown and Valparaiso. The parents and their child, at least in these two instances, think St. Olaf or Butler are comparable in some important ways to Northwestern and Georgetown. Maybe there are instances of a kid narrowing down his choices to, for example, Northwestern and VU, or Georgetown and VU, but I get the (unscientific, non-proven) feeling that just isn't the case. Why is that? I think in most cases it has zero to do with athletics. Assuming that to be true, in cases where kids are considering schools such as St. Olaf, Northwestern, etc., why isn't VU on their list?
Paul
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 30, 2014, 02:49:03 PM
"I love the FCS and I love that level of competitive sports," said Keel, ......... "But the fact is that ESPN doesn't love it." I think the same could be said for middle of the road mid-majors. In that respect, VU needs to get to the Wichita State, Gonzaga, Butler (before they imploded) level of recognition to be thought of as a national university (had our chance, like FGCU, when we made the sweet 16, but failed to act - FGCU acted.). :twocents:
Speaking of the Zags (total enrollment -- 7,691, Undergrads -- 4,896), I scraped this from their website: "Gonzaga Basketball shot over to the newly built, $25 million, 148,000 ft2 McCarthey Athletic Center. Completed in November 2004, the McCarthey Athletic Center has a seating capacity of 6,000 for basketball games. All seats are individual and have arm and backrests." A rennovated ARC could be like that at a portion of the cost. :twocents:
What did FGCU do after their Sweet 16 run? Lose their coach?
Also, Gonzaga's $25 million arena is a bit misleading. $25 million 10 years ago is $31.2 in today's money. Also, construction costs are a bit higher today than 10 years ago... the going rate for a 6,000 seat arena is about $40 million (see Trojan Arena). Furthermore, Gonzaga's arena cost was limited by large donations and pre-sold season tickets. We're at a disadvantage there as well. Gonzaga basketball was coming off of 6 straight appearances with an Elite 8 and 3 Sweet 16s. We're going to need to be successful first before being able to self-finance a $30 million arena. It's just something that isn't practical.
Here are links to the annual reports reports from the following schools: (Note: The most current Valpo annual report I could find is from 2010. Of the four schools listed above, it is the only one not to have it publicly available on their website. I found it on a third-party site).
Northwestern: goo.gl/fUTX1j
Notre Dame: goo.gl/FdcdbS
St Olaf: goo.gl/uMPCxw
Valpo: goo.gl/9LHSE6
The statistics therein explain a lot. I can offer some thoughts, and I'm sure others can glean even more from the reports.
Northwestern and Notre Dame are, of course, tier-one schools when it comes to endowments. Both are in the top 15 in the county. That alone separates them. But looking at their sources of revenues beyond endowment illustrate that a ton of money come from copyrights and trademarks they hold. Northwestern, especially, does a ton of medical research. Patents churn out more than athletics, hands down. Both have top law schools and business schools, and Northwestern also has a great medical school. Those elite graduate-level programs attract high-performing high school students and helpful alumni.
St Olaf is closer in size and resources. However, St Olaf has a lot to offer. Despite having fewer students (about 3,200), St Olaf's endowment is twice that of Valpo ($379M to $177M). It's admission rate (about 50%) is much lower than Valpo's (75%). The average ACT of incoming freshmen (29) is significantly higher than Valpo's (26).
Last, St Olaf is also classified in the liberal arts colleges category in most books/websites that help guide people through college options. Valpo is in the category "Master's level university". I suspect that people who want a classic humanities-based, liberal arts experience look to colleges that focus exclusively on that, while those who want a "true" university look at bigger, glossier universities. If you live outside the Ill-Ind-Mi or Lutheran orbits, Valpo has many characteristics that leave it likely to fall between the cracks unless you hear about VU from someone you know and trust.
Quote from: a3uge on April 30, 2014, 03:56:21 PM
Gonzaga's $25 million arena is a bit misleading. $25 million 10 years ago is $31.2 in today's money. Also, construction costs are a bit higher today than 10 years ago... the going rate for a 6,000 seat arena is about $40 million (see Trojan Arena). Furthermore, Gonzaga's arena cost was limited by large donations and pre-sold season tickets. We're at a disadvantage there as well. Gonzaga basketball was coming off of 6 straight appearances with an Elite 8 and 3 Sweet 16s. We're going to need to be successful first before being able to self-finance a $30 million arena. It's just something that isn't practical.
Yeah, I agree. It could just be a order of magnitude thing. Anything at this point would be an improvement. And it is a lot easier to do that when you have a track record like the Zags. So we have to get back to the dance more often. Chicken and egg thing.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 30, 2014, 05:00:07 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 30, 2014, 03:56:21 PM
Gonzaga's $25 million arena is a bit misleading. $25 million 10 years ago is $31.2 in today's money. Also, construction costs are a bit higher today than 10 years ago... the going rate for a 6,000 seat arena is about $40 million (see Trojan Arena). Furthermore, Gonzaga's arena cost was limited by large donations and pre-sold season tickets. We're at a disadvantage there as well. Gonzaga basketball was coming off of 6 straight appearances with an Elite 8 and 3 Sweet 16s. We're going to need to be successful first before being able to self-finance a $30 million arena. It's just something that isn't practical.
Yeah, I agree. It could just be a order of magnitude thing. Anything at this point would be an improvement. And it is a lot easier to do that when you have a track record like the Zags. So we have to get back to the dance more often. Chicken and egg thing.
Chicken and egg indeed. Butler didn't spend a lot more on athletics to get decent, the got decent and were able to spend a lot more on athletics. This kind of snowballs, but it takes a combination of winning and an investment in athletics.
We actually are in the top 3 in athletic spending in the HL. I am more considered with our inability to make strategic long term plans than anything. A lot of private schools have a decent field house or athletics center for students - Carthage College just built a $13 million field house. If we get a big donor to build something that all students can enjoy, it'll benefit the campus life greatly - students would love a good place to work out. The ARC isn't really appealing to prospective students and the need to retract the bleachers make it impossible to set it up as a decent basketball arena.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 30, 2014, 02:49:03 PMFGCU acted.
....eeee...not really. still stuck. they're doing a pretty good valpo impression, actually without the return trip to the dance.
Quote from: a3uge on April 30, 2014, 06:10:37 PMI am more considered with our inability to make strategic long term plans than anything.
DING
DING DING
DING DING DING
Seriously--Cartilage can build an 8 figure field house? I weep for our future.
I hear from people knowing Valpo just about every day down here. I was wearing a Valpo baseball polo shirt in the hospital this past weekend when my son was born, and one of the L&D nurses mentioned that her daughter is at Purdue, and recently married a Valpo grad. It is pretty common for me to run into someone that knows our school whenever I wear these types of shirts :). Nothing bad to say about St. Olaf, as both of my parents received their undergraduate degree from that school.
Quote from: valpotx on April 30, 2014, 08:10:26 PM
I hear from people knowing Valpo just about every day down here. I was wearing a Valpo baseball polo shirt in the hospital this past weekend when my son was born, and one of the L&D nurses mentioned that her daughter is at Purdue, and recently married a Valpo grad. It is pretty common for me to run into someone that knows our school whenever I wear these types of shirts :). Nothing bad to say about St. Olaf, as both of my parents received their undergraduate degree from that school.
Congrats!! Hope all went well. So, can you tell if he is left handed yet?? ;)
Quote from: vu72 on April 30, 2014, 10:03:16 PM
Quote from: valpotx on April 30, 2014, 08:10:26 PM
I hear from people knowing Valpo just about every day down here. I was wearing a Valpo baseball polo shirt in the hospital this past weekend when my son was born, and one of the L&D nurses mentioned that her daughter is at Purdue, and recently married a Valpo grad. It is pretty common for me to run into someone that knows our school whenever I wear these types of shirts :). Nothing bad to say about St. Olaf, as both of my parents received their undergraduate degree from that school.
Congrats!! Hope all went well. So, can you tell if he is left handed yet?? ;)
right?!?? WHY DID YOU NOT LIKE START A THREAD? this is big news! congratulations!!!
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 30, 2014, 08:08:08 PMSeriously--Cartilage can build an 8 figure field house?
I cringe when I think of figure 8 cartilage. But there actually is such a thing.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hbvty_JcvLQ/Up32WEXoV4I/AAAAAAAAAhc/hqeQFybXqDI/s1600/figure8.jpg)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on May 01, 2014, 06:25:16 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 30, 2014, 10:03:16 PM
Quote from: valpotx on April 30, 2014, 08:10:26 PM
I hear from people knowing Valpo just about every day down here. I was wearing a Valpo baseball polo shirt in the hospital this past weekend when my son was born, and one of the L&D nurses mentioned that her daughter is at Purdue, and recently married a Valpo grad. It is pretty common for me to run into someone that knows our school whenever I wear these types of shirts :). Nothing bad to say about St. Olaf, as both of my parents received their undergraduate degree from that school.
Congrats!! Hope all went well. So, can you tell if he is left handed yet?? ;)
right?!?? WHY DID YOU NOT LIKE START A THREAD? this is big news! congratulations!!!
No idea, but hopeful that he takes after me in that area! Thanks for the well wishes :)
Quote from: 78crusader on April 29, 2014, 08:49:06 PMI know that when the first US News College Ranking came out in 1988, VU was rated #1 -- and the only criteria at that time was our academic reputation. I think that reputation has taken a hit over the years, since in our category in the US News we have fallen from #1 to I think #6 last year. That is not a good trend. I have yet to hear President Heckler address this. He should.
Forget about athletic facilities and all the other ancillary stuff, the real issue IMO is the academic reputation. Back in the early 90's when we were #1 it was a BIG deal, my friends at Evansville and relatives who went to Butler all lamented the fact that VU was rated higher than they were. Certainly VU has gotten
much better in academic related facilities since that time, our school is certainly more broadly recognized athletically. What has changed for the worse? I know that some of the US News criteria has fluctuated, but how have we gone from 1st to 6th? At CLHS we do see a lot more interest in places like Wheaton, Calvin, St Olaf, Carleton and Hope than in the past. Calvin in particular has been much more aggressive in recruiting our school. I will admit that I am not a big fan of "growing" VU to the 6K student level. I would much rather see us become more selective and accept a lower percentage of students thus hopefully raising our academic reputation.
:thumbsup:
Face it...ratings are very political, etc. Even if we are growing our student population, the test scores of the incoming, increased numbers of students are going up as high or higher than ever. Does it really make sense that our academic ratings should be going down? Since when do schools like Calvin, Wheaton, etc. even compare with VU? We offer many more programs, courses, student activities, athletics on a much larger and on a more extensive scale. It seems like incoming frosh at times are more interested in small schools and dialed into a program that one may offer. Years ago who even heard of the Calvins, etc. unless you lived nearby?
Remember, things are getting more competive and we continue to grow at a controlled pace. Are some of us getting overly concerned?
Quote from: valpo64 on May 02, 2014, 08:13:51 AM
Face it...ratings are very political, etc. Even if we are growing our student population, the test scores of the incoming, increased numbers of students are going up as high or higher than ever. Does it really make sense that our academic ratings should be going down? Since when do schools like Calvin, Wheaton, etc. even compare with VU? We offer many more programs, courses, student activities, athletics on a much larger and on a more extensive scale. It seems like incoming frosh at times are more interested in small schools and dialed into a program that one may offer. Years ago who even heard of the Calvins, etc. unless you lived nearby?
Remember, things are getting more competive and we continue to grow at a controlled pace. Are some of us getting overly concerned?
Couldn't agree more. Most of the other smaller schools mentioned really aren't our competition. Alan Harre said our competition includes the Butlers, Miami of Ohios and and other schools with similar programs to ours. Now, if the student in question is after a religious or specifically Lutheran college then we look even better, unless the student/parents are looking for a "Bible"/Baptist school and then we aren't going to look for good. Versus religious schools, very few will have the professional colleges that Valpo has. If you want to study history or philosophy or english, then we still compare very well but the other schools would have a horse in the race.
I suppose the quality of an education can be directly correlated to the success of its graduates. The first part of success comes from getting a job and/or being able to get into graduate school. This article discusses Valpo's placement rate for 2012-2013 graduates, which was 92.5%. This continues a over 20 year string of 20% plus results. Sounds pretty good to me.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1890989 (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1890989)
I am also a little disturbed in the downward trend of our ranking, but not overly concerned. We were #1 in the region throughout my entire Valpo experience (maybe #2 my last year?), but #6 isn't anything to balk at. If we continue to slide, then I will be a little more concerned, but as long as we stay in the top 5-6, it bodes well for Valpo's future.
I hope Valpo is able to invest in STEM fields a little bit more - and I'm glad they finally started. There's not a lot of Midwest schools that are private and offer top notch Engineering programs. I can't imagine prospective students are impressed with seeing Windows XP installed on computers in the Math labs, and the displeasing and dumpy feeling of Gellerson/Niels can't be good for science students who know their lives will be consumed with school for 4 years.
valpo64 - I am a proud Valpo grad, but if you base in on ACT or SAT scores, Wheaton and Carleton are significantly better.
The more students we have, the better. Being small in and of itself is not important -- we just need to focus on bringing in better quality students and maintaining the small school atmosphere by having a low teacher-student ratio, etc. Even though we now have 4,500 students, the academic profile of our incoming students continues to increase. I don't see the problem.
Amen, Okinowa!
In my opinion, I think Valpo is going in the wrong direction as a school. I think part of the reason we are sliding in the rankings and on kids lists is our campus. These rising schools like Hope, Wheaton, etc having been building new facilities (dorms, classrooms, etc) for years. That gives students and families the wow factor they are looking for. We went something like 20+ yrs with the only new building being the VUCA. So we are paying for it now, with outdated science, business and math/engineering buildings. I know we just built the edition to the engineering building but it is just lipstick on a pig. So when students look at outdated facilities, more factors come into play. Our financial aid packages are good but not great. Greek life is all but gone. So the social scene is not what we remember which leads to students that do come to transfer. Our athletic facilities are a joke including what is available for the general students.
I understand your frustration as to why we aren't mentioned in the same breathe as Butler, Georgetown, Northwestern, etc; I think it comes down to those are urban schools. 18-22 love the idea of having everything at their fingertips 24/7. I would think we compare more to Bucknell/Lehigh or Bradley/St Olaf type of school. But those schools have a lot of new construction over the past 15 yrs and the campus embraces/protects the college social scene.
Finally, I wonder if the Northwestern your friends child was considering was the Northwestern in Iowa. From my experiences, that is typically the one that would be considered with the St Olaf type of schools not the Big10 Northwestern.
Quote from: T_$ on June 02, 2014, 06:10:33 PM
In my opinion, I think Valpo is going in the wrong direction as a school. I think part of the reason we are sliding in the rankings and on kids lists is our campus. These rising schools like Hope, Wheaton, etc having been building new facilities (dorms, classrooms, etc) for years. That gives students and families the wow factor they are looking for. We went something like 20+ yrs with the only new building being the VUCA. So we are paying for it now, with outdated science, business and math/engineering buildings. I know we just built the edition to the engineering building but it is just lipstick on a pig. So when students look at outdated facilities, more factors come into play. Our financial aid packages are good but not great. Greek life is all but gone. So the social scene is not what we remember which leads to students that do come to transfer. Our athletic facilities are a joke including what is available for the general students.
I understand your frustration as to why we aren't mentioned in the same breathe as Butler, Georgetown, Northwestern, etc; I think it comes down to those are urban schools. 18-22 love the idea of having everything at their fingertips 24/7. I would think we compare more to Bucknell/Lehigh or Bradley/St Olaf type of school. But those schools have a lot of new construction over the past 15 yrs and the campus embraces/protects the college social scene.
Finally, I wonder if the Northwestern your friends child was considering was the Northwestern in Iowa. From my experiences, that is typically the one that would be considered with the St Olaf type of schools not the Big10 Northwestern.
How have we not had a lot of construction since the VUCA? Since then, we built the amazing Christopher Center library, a huge union (the most expensive project in our history), Kallay-Christopher Hall (weather department), new Arts and Sciences building, new dorm, Welcome Center, Engineering addition, new Law School building, and the German House. I don't think we have ever had more construction in our history than we've had in the last 20 years (someone correct me if I'm wrong). We are spending money, but I think it's time to focus on athletics a bit more.
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on June 03, 2014, 03:04:44 AMHow have we not had a lot of construction since the VUCA?
Not what he said. Read again, and contemplate anew:
Quote from: T_$ on June 02, 2014, 06:10:33 PMWe went something like 20+ yrs with the only new building being the VUCA.
VUCA was built in 94-95. I think it would be fairly easy to put that in a 20-year span as the only new building.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on June 03, 2014, 08:06:18 AM
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on June 03, 2014, 03:04:44 AMHow have we not had a lot of construction since the VUCA?
Not what he said. Read again, and contemplate anew:
Quote from: T_$ on June 02, 2014, 06:10:33 PMWe went something like 20+ yrs with the only new building being the VUCA.
VUCA was built in 94-95. I think it would be fairly easy to put that in a 20-year span as the only new building.
Well T_$ then points out that "But those schools have a lot of new construction over the past 15 yrs and the campus embraces/protects the college social scene", making the point that VU has not had a lot of construction. He also states that basically our facilities are outdated, which I would challenge. "I know we just built the edition to the engineering building but it is just lipstick on a pig. So when students look at outdated facilities, more factors come into play."
VU has been building frantically to update facilities. We all want brand new facilities (especially athletic facilities), but I think VU should be commended for taking such an aggressive stance over the past two decades to update facilities. To say that this puts us at a disadvantage to other schools is only looking at one small part of the problem.
In the 20 years preceding the VUCA, here's what we built during our "no building" years:
1979: Urschel Hall (business)
1984: ARC basketball arena
1984: Schnabel Hall (communications)
1987: Wesemann Hall (Law School)
Substantial renovation in 1995: Wehrenberg Hall (dorm)
Not exactly inspiring architecture in these facilities, but VU was still building facilities at a decent rate.
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on June 03, 2014, 03:04:44 AM
Quote from: T_$ on June 02, 2014, 06:10:33 PM
In my opinion, I think Valpo is going in the wrong direction as a school. I think part of the reason we are sliding in the rankings and on kids lists is our campus. These rising schools like Hope, Wheaton, etc having been building new facilities (dorms, classrooms, etc) for years. That gives students and families the wow factor they are looking for. We went something like 20+ yrs with the only new building being the VUCA. So we are paying for it now, with outdated science, business and math/engineering buildings. I know we just built the edition to the engineering building but it is just lipstick on a pig. So when students look at outdated facilities, more factors come into play. Our financial aid packages are good but not great. Greek life is all but gone. So the social scene is not what we remember which leads to students that do come to transfer. Our athletic facilities are a joke including what is available for the general students.
I understand your frustration as to why we aren't mentioned in the same breathe as Butler, Georgetown, Northwestern, etc; I think it comes down to those are urban schools. 18-22 love the idea of having everything at their fingertips 24/7. I would think we compare more to Bucknell/Lehigh or Bradley/St Olaf type of school. But those schools have a lot of new construction over the past 15 yrs and the campus embraces/protects the college social scene.
Finally, I wonder if the Northwestern your friends child was considering was the Northwestern in Iowa. From my experiences, that is typically the one that would be considered with the St Olaf type of schools not the Big10 Northwestern.
How have we not had a lot of construction since the VUCA? Since then, we built the amazing Christopher Center library, a huge union (the most expensive project in our history), Kallay-Christopher Hall (weather department), new Arts and Sciences building, new dorm, Welcome Center, Engineering addition, new Law School building, and the German House. I don't think we have ever had more construction in our history than we've had in the last 20 years (someone correct me if I'm wrong). We are spending money, but I think it's time to focus on athletics a bit more.
Add Uptown East Apartments to the list.
As to students wanting "everything at their fingertips" it should be noted that the entire east end shopping district, including Valparaiso Market Place Shopping Center, Porter's Vale Shopping Center and Strongbow Shopping Centre, has become a venerable small town shopping meca, with ultra modern national stores and brands of every type and local and national eateries galore - essentially next door to the university and all within walking distance. Interwoven in this attractive area are 6 hotels - Hampton, Courtyard, Fairfield, Holiday Inn Express, Super 8 and Country Inn and Suites. Four of the six have been added within the past 5-10 years with a new look and feel.
The City has added the V-Line city bus service in the past 5 years with a dedicated "Brown" line for the university. This service has become extremely popular with VU students, adding a reliable, affordable mobility dimension that they never had before:
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/valpo-adds-route-longer-hours-to-v-line-service/article_9f917f7e-c780-5192-8785-4749bf1ec1e3.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/valpo-adds-route-longer-hours-to-v-line-service/article_9f917f7e-c780-5192-8785-4749bf1ec1e3.html)
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on June 03, 2014, 08:26:45 AM1979: Urschel Hall (business)
1984: ARC basketball arena
1984: Schnabel Hall (communications)
1987: Wesemann Hall (Law School)
Substantial renovation in 1995: Wehrenberg Hall (dorm)
Again,
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on June 03, 2014, 08:26:45 AMIn the 20 years preceding the VUCA, here's what we built during our "no building" years
not what he said either.
Quote from: T_$ on June 02, 2014, 06:10:33 PMWe went something like 20+ yrs with the only new building being the VUCA.
I don't totally agree with him, but reading comprehension fails are bothersome. He's saying there was a big dry spell with only the VUCA to break it up.
87 was law school. Then...what besides the VUCA? Kade-Dooz (2000), perhaps, although I'm willing to bet a vast majority of VU students went 4 years without setting foot inside. The Christopher Center is 2004.
So not 20+, but we have a 17-year span where (essentially) nothing but VUCA. Since then, sure, lots of stuff (K-C etc.), but he's essentially right...we went a long time with Harre a new building to our name.
Listen, I commend the college for what they have done over the last decade. The campus is vastly improved from my time in the 90's. But we are paying for the lack of vision to see what students want and we are playing catch-up. The VUCA was built during my time there and I never stepped foot in it, along with many people from my era. We could've used a new union or library then. Renovating the rest of the dorms should've happened right after the finished fixing up the 'Burg. Or how about you ask the science and business students what its like to use outdated buildings. Did you know that most of the science building uses an actual chalkboard? So until we improve those buildings, then we still will be behind some of these other schools.
Did someone actually use the new hotels as an attraction for students? We have nothing like Broad Ripple or Rush & Division, etc. As much as we dance around it, I think the social scene is a big factor. Students like to drink. But between the campus, city and county police every weekend is an adventure. Do you that the campus safe ride is now run though the police office? They monitor pick-up and drop off locations and if there is an inordinate amount to a certain location they then pick-up the patrols to that area. Friends that have gone to Northwestern and Butler have gotten rides home from the police at night due to their inebriated state not to the city jail. Right or wrong, that is a factor when dealing with potential student-athletes who are considering Drake, Dayton and Butler.
I love Valpo and I am excited to see the future of the campus, but I'm fearful that it will be another 10 yrs for us to see all the growth pay off.
I've stood up for you, but now I'll come down too. (My allegiance is only to the truth, after all.)
First, you admit we've caught up a little in terms of picking up the pace. So that's great; now, it does us no good to be fearful of the fruit of those 17 years with just the VUCA now, then, except as a lesson for future administrations.
Second, you seem to think that all students want to do is drink. I don't think that's the case; at least I don't think it's suddenly more true than it has been for the last, say, 30 years.
If your idea of improving VU's reputation is making it easier to drink, then, man, I don't know what to tell you. It's not like US News has a category for that sort of thing. I'm not sure Bryce wants the kind of guys that are most interested in a college where they can binge drink without fear of repercussion, for one thing.
Then again, you complain about the "social scene" and "never stepped foot in" the VUCA, so I'm not sure we are on the same page at all.
What planet did T_$ come from? Or rather what is he on? Some of the schools he mentioned had facilities so bad they HAD to build new and replace. Now all of a sudden we are not keeping up or going in the right direction? Come on man...pay attention.
When VU played Mercer last year in b-ball, I visited with a member of their b-ball staff at their hotel. He mentioned what a beautiful campus we had...and their campus in Macon, GA has been voted one of the top 10 most beautiful campuses in the Country over the last number of years. We visited their campus this Spring and were not that impressed. It is VERY crammed together but they have a beautiful football stadium. FYI, their campus is adjacent to I-75 if you take the thru town route in Macon.
While I wish we would get going on the ARC project, I believe we have done a good job overall in building new facilities and improving the campus for student life and academics.
Am I wrong?
Quote from: valpo64 on June 03, 2014, 02:50:05 PM
What planet did T_$ come from? Or rather what is he on? Some of the schools he mentioned had facilities so bad they HAD to build new and replace. Now all of a sudden we are not keeping up or going in the right direction? Come on man...pay attention.
When VU played Mercer last year in b-ball, I visited with a member of their b-ball staff at their hotel. He mentioned what a beautiful campus we had...and their campus in Macon, GA has been voted one of the top 10 most beautiful campuses in the Country over the last number of years. We visited their campus this Spring and were not that impressed. It is VERY crammed together but they have a beautiful football stadium. FYI, their campus is adjacent to I-75 if you take the thru town route in Macon.
While I wish we would get going on the ARC project, I believe we have done a good job overall in building new facilities and improving the campus for student life and academics.
Am I wrong?
In recent years Valparaiso University has gone from looking "tired" to looking modern, attractive and progressive. The seemingly never ending construction sites around campus complete with heavy equipment, materials, workers, barriers and detours give it the appearance of a happening place constantly on the move. Every VU alum should be proud to say that Valparaiso University is "their" school.
Quote from: T_$ on June 02, 2014, 06:10:33 PM
In my opinion, I think Valpo is going in the wrong direction as a school. I think part of the reason we are sliding in the rankings and on kids lists is our campus. These rising schools like Hope, Wheaton, etc having been building new facilities (dorms, classrooms, etc) for years. That gives students and families the wow factor they are looking for. We went something like 20+ yrs with the only new building being the VUCA. So we are paying for it now, with outdated science, business and math/engineering buildings. I know we just built the edition to the engineering building but it is just lipstick on a pig. So when students look at outdated facilities, more factors come into play. Our financial aid packages are good but not great. Greek life is all but gone. So the social scene is not what we remember which leads to students that do come to transfer. Our athletic facilities are a joke including what is available for the general students.
I understand your frustration as to why we aren't mentioned in the same breathe as Butler, Georgetown, Northwestern, etc; I think it comes down to those are urban schools. 18-22 love the idea of having everything at their fingertips 24/7. I would think we compare more to Bucknell/Lehigh or Bradley/St Olaf type of school. But those schools have a lot of new construction over the past 15 yrs and the campus embraces/protects the college social scene.
Finally, I wonder if the Northwestern your friends child was considering was the Northwestern in Iowa. From my experiences, that is typically the one that would be considered with the St Olaf type of schools not the Big10 Northwestern.
Yup we need to go back to the good ol days of when the social scene was thriving and we were listed in Playboy Magazine as one of the top party schools in the county and guys were literally getting stabbed on fraternity row.
Thanks for those kind words wh. Not to sound old, but when I was a student most classes where on old campus. Gellerson and Neils were there but the library (which was only about 5 or 6 years old when I hit the campus in '67, now has been replaced. We studied in building built in the 1800's. It is a common problem for any university.
Most recently Valpo had done a major overhaul of the Chapel, as the windows were literally falling out. Now, a major addition to the Chapel is underway. So why did the University choose to renovate the Chapel and not the ARC? Well, a nice couple, Pastor and Mrs. (also a pastor) Mark Helge donated $15 million for the Chapel project. They were also the lead gift on the Union. Was it their last few bucks? Hardly. BTW, Lutheran pastors aren't becoming millionaires, they inherited the money. The point is that the University is wide open to accepting gifts from whomever. If a basketball fan decided to donate $15 million for the ARC renovation, the University wouldn't insist that the money go for a new science building. It's that simple. Valpo grads historically have been very academically and/or spiritually oriented. Thus the growing in fund giving for those projects versus athletics. Remember, our athletic successes are relatively recent. People who are in their 80's don't think of national basketball wins. They remember the crummy academic building where they froze!
Quote from: vu72 on June 03, 2014, 07:05:29 PM
Thanks for those kind words wh. Not to sound old, but when I was a student most classes where on old campus. Gellerson and Neils were there but the library (which was only about 5 or 6 years old when I hit the campus in '67, now has been replaced. We studied in building built in the 1800's. It is a common problem for any university.
Most recently Valpo had done a major overhaul of the Chapel, as the windows were literally falling out. Now, a major addition to the Chapel is underway. So why did the University choose to renovate the Chapel and not the ARC? Well, a nice couple, Pastor and Mrs. (also a pastor) Mark Helge donated $15 million for the Chapel project. They were also the lead gift on the Union. Was it their last few bucks? Hardly. BTW, Lutheran pastors aren't becoming millionaires, they inherited the money. The point is that the University is wide open to accepting gifts from whomever. If a basketball fan decided to donate $15 million for the ARC renovation, the University wouldn't insist that the money go for a new science building. It's that simple. Valpo grads historically have been very academically and/or spiritually oriented. Thus the growing in fund giving for those projects versus athletics. Remember, our athletic successes are relatively recent. People who are in their 80's don't think of national basketball wins. They remember the crummy academic building where they froze!
This is a good point. It would be nice to have a Valpo grad that was a hedge fund manager that loves sports, like a Chavietz or someone like that. Admittedly, this problem will go away once I sell my future headphone company for billions of dollars to Microsoft.
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I am not the most eloquent of writers so I think some of you are missing the point of what I am trying to say. A little about me, I was a football player, a business student and in a fraternity so my Valpo experience was geared towards those things. So no, I didn't step in the VUCA, I didn't even know what it was. I went to Urshel to the ARC to the house. Yes, I talk about the social scene a lot because I think that has a lot to do with your college experience. Whether you partake in the beverages or not, you don't want to go to a college where a lot of the students leave on the weekends to go home or visit other campuses. It makes it have a community college or commuter college feel. My wife works at a prestigious college out east; about the size of Valpo; with students on a daily basis, and she is shocked when she hears about the number of students that leave every weekend. For the guys that went to Valpo in the 70's and 80's, how did you enjoy your time on campus? Just because you have a liberal alcohol policy, it doesn't mean that you are going to attract lesser students. Do you think the kids at Harvard and Columbia like to partake in the beverages? Does that hurt their elite reputation or the types of students they get? I am not saying to turn into Arizona State, but I think we can make that better.
As I said, I commend where the university is going. It will take time and money but campus is changing for the better. I just hope that they keep up the improvements to position us for generations to come. VU72, I guess I have a disconnect from you and probably a lot of people on this board. I didn't think of Valpo of a place of graduating a lot of "spiritual" people. I came here for the academics and football, the religious aspect was just part of the experience. But I am starting to see that religion was a bigger factor for a lot of you so I apologize if I come across as a meathead. We all came to Valpo for different reasons, but I think we can all agree that Valpo helped us become the men and women we are.
vu72 = I remember a great academic experience, nice people, a campus environment similar to the I Like Ike days, and Rob Harden banging the water cooler.
T_$ - Excellent comments, I feel very similar to what you said. I think Valpo overreacted to restricting alcohol, and I think it had little or no effect on the academic reputation. Heck, MIT has a bar on campus grounds, the Muddy Charles, where you can relax from the intense academics for a bit. Do you think that has a deterimental effect on academics at MIT?
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 03, 2014, 09:44:13 PMDo you think that has a deterimental effect on academics at MIT?
obviously. they were once top 4-5, and this year, down to a tie for #7 in the country, in the dregs with Penn and Duke.
I know that many seem to think that underage drinking is a part of being in college. Looking back as someone who also did so my FR and SO years, I have absolutely no issue with the VUPD trying to teach these kids a lesson. My friends and I did many stupid things that would have pissed off people my current age (32), and do piss me off currently when seeing them at different events. There is a drinking age for a reason, as just about every sub-21 year old is not ready to handle the responsibility, and in most cases, still aren't for a few years after they turn 21. It seems fun and funny at the time, but is absolutely moronic at that age, and I would punch myself if I were able to go back in time. Luckily, I snapped out of it and ended up with a great career, but many of my friends did not...
I don;t think there's nothing wrong with having a few pops (not constant binge drinking) now and then during your college experience. My issue with Valpo is that they went overboard on restricting alcohol. What ever happened to the "work hard, play hard" philosophy?
Quote from: T_$ on June 03, 2014, 09:12:49 PMFor the guys that went to Valpo in the 70's and 80's, how did you enjoy your time on campus?
Things were entirely different in those days. Mound Street had six houses and weekends were active with parties, live bands and plenty of booze. The Phi Psi house had Wednesday night "study breaks", when students could stop by, buy a cup for a buck and drink all the beer they wanted. No fear of police. People didn't go home. In those days, as it is now, students came from all over the country but even those living close by didn't generally take off.
We also had bigger weekends (homecoming etc.) when nationally recognized groups came to Valpo to perform. I saw groups like The Temptations perform. So why the big change? Well, legal issues, that's what. I remember seeing a couple of kids who had gone through windshields. Not a pretty site. So if your child went through a windshield after drinking too much at a Frat house with the open knowledge of the University, would you be happy? Prone to a massive lawsuit maybe? What if that child died?
We had a blast. Did we do dumb stuff? In spades. It just won't fly in today's world and that, for the most part, is a very good thing.
I also assume that liquor stores are much more likely to actually look at your ID closely nowadays. I forget the name of the liquor store that is by the furniture place, across the street from DQ, but those workers used to look at your fake ID and say, 'woo hooo, fake X' for every state they saw, but would still sell it to you...
Appropriately, it is called "Buz's" Valpo Liquor Store. ;)
I don't know - perhaps the Valpo admistration should quit parenting, have the students learn their lessons the hard way regarding drinking, and focus on enhancing the educational experience. I have faith that the students can take responsibility during their college experience.
Man, USC, that was hilarious stuff. I mean, sarcastic AND funny...blithely parodying the failures of the 60s AND all the aftermath.
And referencing both Animal House and every 80s & 90s college comedy ever made?
I only wish I could make people laugh out loud on the internet the way you made me. Thanks for that
Uh, they are only following the law, it has nothing to do with wanting to over-parent. If you drink while underage, you are breaking the law. I broke the law by doing so, and could have ruined my life if I was caught like many of my friends were. Though a MIP offense isn't a big thing to employers, it does make an impression to have it come up on your background check with some companies. I hope that when we all become half-cyborg with a bunch of identification chips, that there will be a foolproof system to identify underage people and not serve them. The same goes for cars not allowing anyone that has had too much to drive. People's moronic decisions regarding alcohol should not cause other people to lose their lives. In fact, my company could already be working on such a thing within the car, based on all of the other stuff we are doing :).
Apostle - Actually I was fairly serious. I don't think there's nothing wrong having a few beers to socialize over the weekend. You can be a great student and have a social life - know when to study and when to play. It can be done and you don't need to slap on laws and restrictions to such a ridiculasly high extent. Anyway, I am glad you had a good laugh; after reading it I noticed it had an Animal House Pan Hellenic council feel.
Otter: Point of parliamentary procedure!
Hoover: Don't screw around, they're serious this time!
Otter: [aside] Take it easy, I'm ELCA.
Boon: I thought you were Missouri Synod.
Otter: What's the difference? [aloud] Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests—we did. [winks at Dean Schwehn] But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Charlie Gillespie: isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
You can also socialize without drinking
Quote from: valpotx on May 02, 2014, 01:04:44 PM
I am also a little disturbed in the downward trend of our ranking, but not overly concerned. We were #1 in the region throughout my entire Valpo experience (maybe #2 my last year?), but #6 isn't anything to balk at. If we continue to slide, then I will be a little more concerned, but as long as we stay in the top 5-6, it bodes well for Valpo's future.
Rankings are essentially reputation based. Despite the claims of the various magazines that they apply other factors to determine rank, reputation is nearly always the driving factor (excepting surveys that measure alternative qualities such as student satisfaction, etc.).
Rankings are critically important in today's competitive educational marketplace. Ironically (or perhaps not so ironically), universities often publically criticize such rankings while concurrently dedicating large amounts of time and resources to projects that are intended to bolster their rankings. Valpo has a long way to go to get back to the top, but it is possible. It will take substantial reputation building (which admittedly requires money) to begin to reverse the downward trend from #1 to #6. Frankly, I see nothing good whatsoever in that trend, so the sooner it is reversed, the better.
Agreed, I just dislike seeing freedoms being removed. There are responsible, high academic students that should have the choice, and I said choice, to enjoy a few beers (not binge and be a moron) and excel in their studies. At high academic schools, it has been regularly proven that it can be done.
atkins - good comments, we need to see the test scores and type of students Valpo is admitting and we should compare to these other competitive schools. Valpo has a decent rep for what it is - a great place to get an undergraduate education and to prepare you for graduate school.
Quote from: HC on June 06, 2014, 10:35:07 AM
You can also socialize without drinking
Agree to disragree.
Quote from: a3uge on June 07, 2014, 12:00:47 AMAgree to disragree.
I suppose you have to misspell that, given both your position and the time posted.
Hey, disagreeing is OK. There is nothing wrong taking different perspectives on this.
Maybe it is just because alcohol of all types tastes so terrible to me, but I never want a cold beer on a warm day. Give me water or a Dr. Pepper ;)
and that is fine! I just don't want the moralists and the fundamentalists proposing that banning alcohol in a strict manner with improve Valpo's academic reputation. That theory is just plain wrong.
I don't think that it is banning alcohol in general that people are speaking about, but rather not letting underage kids drink, as it is illegal anyways...
Quote from: valpotx on June 07, 2014, 05:05:57 PMI don't think that it is banning alcohol in general that people are speaking about, but rather not letting underage kids drink, as it is illegal anyways...
And it is a huge liability for the university due to the current laws of our society. The world has changed and VU must change with it. Large state universities are able to take on larger liability due to having larger budgets and endowments than a school the size of Valpo.
Banning alcohol completely will solve the problem? We should go back to the 20's and look what prohibition did.
Just because you legislate a law does not mean it will not continue. Also, times are changing as seen in Colorado and Washington with another substance, and availability will occur in more states.
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 07, 2014, 07:27:55 PMWe should go back to the 20's and look what prohibition did.
I know it will come as a surprise as the board's resident Catholic, but I will say this for Prohibition--it solved the problem of public drunkenness and excess. It largely solved the problem that so many working-class women faced of a husband coming home having drunk the majority of his paycheck. (How do you think 3/4 of states passed it in the first place? Women's suffrage.)
(Of course, I am descended from the Welches, one of whom ran for NY gov on the Prohibition ticket, so, not totally unbiased in this.)
But while I'm not in favor of heavy-handed government solutions, I think there was a time and a place for something like Prohibition. We will witness the results that rolling back the marijuana ban...well, heck, we're already seeing them come to light. And it's not pretty, bong jokes aside.
At the end of the day, I think what needs to be asked in legislating drugs is a single question: do I want my son/daughter on these? If yes, then fine. If not, then why make it possible for someone else's kids?
As a parent, the issue is not do I want them on drugs or alcohol, but I wish the solution would be to allow them the choice as a legal adult to be educated on drugs and allow them to make their own decision. Just because you make it illegal does not mean the drug will be inaccessible and they not find it available.
The sad thing these days are the consistent loss of freedoms in this country.
This marijuana movement is going to bite states in the butt. Yes, Colorado made a hefty profit off what they sold so far, but there have been many instances of people that are high driving vehicles and causing accidents/crime, similar to alcohol. The whole argument that marijuana is not as bad as alcohol is complete BS. Drugs are illegal and should stay that way, and we shouldn't have morons running around our streets with access to such things (legally or illegally), as it puts law-abiding citizens in danger of losing their lives. I shouldn't have to suffer a possible injury because you decided that your life sucks and you need to get high or drink your problems away...
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 08, 2014, 09:33:45 PM
As a parent, the issue is not do I want them on drugs or alcohol, but I wish the solution would be to allow them the choice as a legal adult to be educated on drugs and allow them to make their own decision. Just because you make it illegal does not mean the drug will be inaccessible and they not find it available.
The sad thing these days are the consistent loss of freedoms in this country.
Legalize Heroin!
Alcohol is a drug, should we ban that too?
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 09, 2014, 07:20:36 AM
Alcohol is a drug, should we ban that too?
Nope, all drugs should be legalized because people are going to find a way to do them anyways. Plus, people have the right to decide if they want to try heroin or not.
Quote from: valpotx on June 08, 2014, 10:54:52 PM
This marijuana movement is going to bite states in the butt. Yes, Colorado made a hefty profit off what they sold so far, but there have been many instances of people that are high driving vehicles and causing accidents/crime, similar to alcohol. The whole argument that marijuana is not as bad as alcohol is complete BS. Drugs are illegal and should stay that way, and we shouldn't have morons running around our streets with access to such things (legally or illegally), as it puts law-abiding citizens in danger of losing their lives. I shouldn't have to suffer a possible injury because you decided that your life sucks and you need to get high or drink your problems away...
Let's not paint that brush stroke too broadly. There are certain oils and strains from hemp that can provide therapeutic benefit for certain neurological disorders, among others.
See: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/charlottes-web-medical-cannabis-soon-to-be-widely-available-to-colorado-children (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/charlottes-web-medical-cannabis-soon-to-be-widely-available-to-colorado-children)
See: http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/07/health/charlotte-child-medical-marijuana/ (http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/07/health/charlotte-child-medical-marijuana/)
See: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/kids-seizure-charlotte-web-pot-treatment-article-1.1619066 (http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/kids-seizure-charlotte-web-pot-treatment-article-1.1619066)
Hey, you just need to think about it, there are responsible people that like to engage in a drink now and then. You can drink massive amounts of caffeine and overreact or go spastic. Does that mean we should ban coffee too?
Sure, let's ban alcohol, smoking, and coffee ;). I don't partake in any of those, either.
In all seriousness, I fully understand that people want their liberties, but if it affects people who don't partake in such things by endangering their lives because of irresponsible people, it should be looked at more thoroughly. My life should not be put in jeopardy because you want to drink and then drive, or get in another state of mind by being high. I am absolutely loving the DFW regulations being put in place in regards to smoking within a certain distance of buildings, as I shouldn't have to inhale your cigarette smoke everywhere I walk, damaging my lungs. We have enough pollution in the air to affect each of us already, I don't need doses of nicotine from other people on top of that amount.
At its root, this whole discussion is yet another exemplification of the disintegration of the concept of "freedom" from "the ability to choose the good" to merely "the ability to choose".
Sad, really. We're a long way afield from topic, though.
Ok, I understand this thread has gone a little off topic. However, for the reputation of VU, you do not want to go overboard with rules and restrictions.
Getting back to the reputation of Valpo, would it make sense to drop certain majors in help our rankings? With the cost of education continuing to rise rapidly, does it make sense to continue to have education as a major? Would we be better off only offering Masters level programs? Do parents have a tough time spending 45k pre yr for an education degree when a state degree is about half the cost? Especially since little Johnny and Jenny will come out making less than 30k? Can the same be said for exercise science? Not trying to offend anyone, just asking a question with how much we cost compared to when I went to school.
Wow, that is a bold suggestion. There could be various degrees that they can bag. At the end, someone will be pissed off. This is happening at all universities, particularly private. Heck, Cal Tech has recently cut some of their programs!
Does Valpo's mission needs to be revisited, reviewed and maybe revised? From there they can determine what is critical to their success and their growth - as in the business or technical world, this is a holistic, "forest-from-the-trees," top-down approach.
Regarding education, how many students are enrolled in that program, and for that matter how many students are enrolled in other programs at Valpo?
Also, if they want higher academics and growth, they must continue to promote diversity. Respect what you are, but do not prohibit yourselves to that.
OK, I'll have to jump in here. I'm old school, I'll admit it. I like my cocktails and enjoy one or two every day when I get home. I also happen to think everything tastes better with bacon. Can the "food police" be far behind?
The notion that we should eliminate alcohol to protect the public makes about as much sense as not allowing anybody under 30 from driving a car. Ever notice who drives in and out of traffic at crazy speeds? I'm in favor of more things being legalized, not less.
I'm also in favor of strict interpretation and enforcement of the laws as they stand. Taking freedoms away won't discourage the Al Capones of his day or the drug dealers of today. Same for gun control. Chicago and Houston are similarly sized cities. In one you can buy a gun at about 1500 places and in the other, zero places. Why then does Chicago have vastly more murders? The cold weather?? Enforce the laws and leave the folks alone.
Quote from: T_$ on June 03, 2014, 09:12:49 PM
My wife works at a prestigious college out east; about the size of Valpo; with students on a daily basis, and she is shocked when she hears about the number of students that leave every weekend. For the guys that went to Valpo in the 70's and 80's, how did you enjoy your time on campus? Just because you have a liberal alcohol policy, it doesn't mean that you are going to attract lesser students. Do you think the kids at Harvard and Columbia like to partake in the beverages? Does that hurt their elite reputation or the types of students they get?
You may want to read about the situation at Dartmouth. Even Ivy League schools can and do have their reputations damaged by social "excess."
http://www.educationpost.com.hk/resources/education/140213-education-news-two-ivy-league-schools-see-applications-plunge-over-scandal-shortfall-in-graduates?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=outbrain&utm_content=english-articles&utm_campaign=outbrain-paid-h1-2014 (http://www.educationpost.com.hk/resources/education/140213-education-news-two-ivy-league-schools-see-applications-plunge-over-scandal-shortfall-in-graduates?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=outbrain&utm_content=english-articles&utm_campaign=outbrain-paid-h1-2014)
The 2.1% percent enrollment drop for Harvard is insignificant. Their reputation will always gather top students globally.
As for Dartmouth, another outstanding school, who really knows, but adding more rules and restrictions can turn people off. At a more liberal, top-academic university like Datmouth, this will be a detriment.
The fraternity and sorority situation in America is another problem, and many of them need to clean up their act.
...not sure where to put this, but shopping online last night at sears they were featuring... i'm not sure it's google-specific because I'm no penn state fan. then again, being a rug is not exactly a good thing in a sports sense...well better than the doormat.
(http://s23.postimg.org/7gtql26wb/Screen_Shot_2014_07_20_at_11_37_35_PM.png)
Very interesting..... the only over "sports" rug I have seen in person was for the NC State Wolfpack. Of course i can't honestly say I have been looking for them.
I was in Montana on vacation over the last week, and received 4-5 different compliments about Valpo when I wore the baseball polo around town :)