I'm not sure how much validity there is in this, and I couldn't think of a more awful move by the Horizon League, but this certainly should serve as a spark for some off-season conversation: http://pantheru.com/2015/05/horizon-league-tournament-going-neutral/ (http://pantheru.com/2015/05/horizon-league-tournament-going-neutral/)
Yet another reason go look at other conferences? Certainly helps UDM and Oakland regardless of where they finish the regular season.
Quote from: valpopal on May 05, 2015, 05:52:53 PM
I'm not sure how much validity there is in this, and I couldn't think of a more awful move by the Horizon League, but this certainly should serve as a spark for some off-season conversation: http://pantheru.com/2015/05/horizon-league-tournament-going-neutral/ (http://pantheru.com/2015/05/horizon-league-tournament-going-neutral/)
Unless Oakland or Detroit make the final game, it will be a very lightly attended (in comparison to size of arena) game. I like the current format.
I can't imagine that fans will flock to downtown Detroit to watch games. Fort Wayne's Memorial Coliseum should be considered if they go to a neutral site. It has changed alot and been improved since the old Mid-Con tourney days.
The prospect of Millions Thousands Hundreds sitting in front of ESPN2 and seeing a nearly empty arena for a D-I conference championship game will rock the Neilson ratings. :o It will definitely cement America's perception of the HL as a top flight mid major. :crazy:
They always say: "follow the money."
Can't wait for the Horizon League to send a 15 seed after their top seed loses in front of a crowd of 500.
But before the outrage, I'd take this report with a grain of salt. PantherU has no credibility whatsoever and has been notoriously wrong about Horizon League news in the past.
If there was a 7-2 vote, of course the other schools will be for it. They see the dynasty that Valpo is building, and want to have a chance to make the tourney in future years, when we will still be earning #1 seeds....
Below is an article that quotes LeCrone and gives further credibility to this move of the tournament to Detroit. Looking at other fan forums, this plan seems to be seen as a bad idea and almost universally hated. Therefore, if this deal is finalized, I predict a further erosion of support for the Horizon League administration by fans. http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/05/horizon-league-joe-louis-arena/26956105/ (http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/05/horizon-league-joe-louis-arena/26956105/)
This is such a bad idea it's almost laughable. Have these people not seen how many fans show up to the Friday and Saturday tournament games now when the hosting team is not playing? That is what all the games will be like, especially as mentioned if Oakland or Detroit aren't playing.
This is just another step in the long, torturous decline of the Horizon League. If the rumors about Northern Kentucky and this are true, I can see us winning the HL regular season crown next year, having our RPI trashed by having to play teams like NKU, YSU, and UIC twice, and being rewarded with a "neutral site" tourney game against OU or UDM in Detroit. We need to do whatever is necessary to move on to a conference like the MVC (or just about any conference not run by LeCrone).
I think there is another side to this discussion. I never went but some of the older guys on this forum did go to the tournaments held at neutral sites like Kansas City. I don't really think the Tulsa tourneys count in that regard. I think the sentiment is that those days brought fans from every school and had a more "tournament" like atmosphere. I understand the lowly number of fans at title games if someone other than, in the Detroit case, OU or UDM was playing. Still, playing at a site in a major city certainly would draw more folks then trying to get folks from Cleveland or Detroit to come and spend a few days in Valpo--no knock on the City of Valparaiso--but to fans from larger cities it would seem hard to imagine what to do with spare time.
The intent is for the men's tournament to begin next year and potentially anchor the tournament in Detroit for the foreseeable future. The Horizon League is expected to sign a deal this week with Olympia Entertainment to bring the conference basketball tournament to Joe Louis Arena, according to multiple people with knowledge of the discussions.
I was getting used to hosting the tournament in Valpo, 3 out of the last 4 years have been at the ARC. Whatever happened to giving the 1st seed and your best team an advantage? It's more import now that ever since the league is now 1 bid. Come one HL send the best representative to try and win a NCAA game.
I'm losing my support for the HL.
http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/05/horizon-league-joe-louis-arena/26956105/ (http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/05/horizon-league-joe-louis-arena/26956105/)
Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2015, 09:02:47 AM
I think there is another side to this discussion. I never went but some of the older guys on this forum did go to the tournaments held at neutral sites like Kansas City. I don't really think the Tulsa tourneys count in that regard. I think the sentiment is that those days brought fans from every school and had a more "tournament" like atmosphere. I understand the lowly number of fans at title games if someone other than, in the Detroit case, OU or UDM was playing. Still, playing at a site in a major city certainly would draw more folks then trying to get folks from Cleveland or Detroit to come and spend a few days in Valpo--no knock on the City of Valparaiso--but to fans from larger cities it would seem hard to imagine what to do with spare time.
I see your point, 72, but I don't believe that concern for the fan experience or tournament atmosphere has anything to do with this. If that were the case, cities like Indy or Cincy would be much more attractive destinations for fans while also being more neutral geographically. This is a money grab, plain and simple.
Quote from: webbvufan on May 06, 2015, 09:10:29 AM
Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2015, 09:02:47 AM
I think there is another side to this discussion. I never went but some of the older guys on this forum did go to the tournaments held at neutral sites like Kansas City. I don't really think the Tulsa tourneys count in that regard. I think the sentiment is that those days brought fans from every school and had a more "tournament" like atmosphere. I understand the lowly number of fans at title games if someone other than, in the Detroit case, OU or UDM was playing. Still, playing at a site in a major city certainly would draw more folks then trying to get folks from Cleveland or Detroit to come and spend a few days in Valpo--no knock on the City of Valparaiso--but to fans from larger cities it would seem hard to imagine what to do with spare time.
I see your point, 72, but I don't believe that concern for the fan experience or tournament atmosphere has anything to do with this. If that were the case, cities like Indy or Cincy would be much more attractive destinations for fans while also being more neutral geographically. This is a money grab, plain and simple.
OK, I just check the mileage and time--assuming driving. Green Bay has the farthest to go to Detroit at 8 hours and Milwaukee is next at 6 hours. Everyone else is within 4.5 hours. Given that 2 schools are basicly within a half hour, the average driving time is 3 3/4 hours. The average for non-Detroit area schools is 4.61 hours.
Now, I next looked at Indy as an alternative. The average driving time goes up to 4.25 hours but the average for non-Detroit area teams goes down slightly to 4.25 hours.Indy is further for four teams while Detroit is further for four teams as well. I'd call it a push. Bothe cities are very close for any real fan. Valpo will travel well and Cleveland is only 2 hours away. Dayton and YSU are 3.5 hours.
As for one being more attractive then the other--no comment and yes, the money at $20,000 per school is more (presumably) then what is generated when playing at college sites.
The additional $20,000 in revenue for schools such as Milwaukee and Green Bay surely will be eaten up in additional mileage so no game will be played at home or nearby and in additional lodging and meal expenses. Sounds to me like some schools just don't want to have to play at Valpo and they recognize that such is probably strong possibility almost annually. As most on the board have noted, this is a very short-sighted decision.
I find it interesting that they'll be playing in a demolished arena in 2017. Playing in a parking lot will be interesting.
Also, its going to be really awesome scheduling around an NHL team. Say goodbye to that primetime Tuesday game.
This just seems like a terrible idea.
It can't be just a money grab, the numbers don't make any sense: If we assume a simple structure of the campus sites as 7 games played (4 in round 1, 2 round 2, and 1 championship), 2500 fans in attendance, and a ticket revenue that can be shared with the league of $10.00 per seat, that works out to $175K. Of course, not all of the games would draw 2500 fans, but the championship game surely would draw well above 2500 fans. (Again, these numbers are just rough estimates.)
So, why would the HL want to sign a contract for $200K? Maybe it is a few dollars more, but there has to be something else? Do the powers that be think that a large arena atmosphere would be better exposure for the league, even if that arena was half empty? Is it that there is too much of a home-court advantage for the first place team? I don't know the answer, but it seems the answer can't be money.
Quote from: webbvufan on May 06, 2015, 09:10:29 AMThis is a money grab, plain and simple.
I agree with this sentiment, and it seems the Horizon League can be bought for pretty cheap. As Panther U states in his article, the payoff is expected to be $200,000 with $20,000 for each school to assist with "travel costs." (Perhaps there is a clue in this math that a 10th team is certain this year.) However, I am guessing the conference will deduct a share for itself before distribution to schools; therefore, the eventual amount given each school would be less and not be sufficient anyway to compensate for the various negative effects.
If the article is correct and Valparaiso (along with UIC) voted against this terrible plan, let's give credit to VU and hope this will present more incentive for jumping to a new league when the opportunity arises. Also, let's not let the Horizon League get away with its euphemism of a "neutral site," and if the money really is intended to assist with "travel costs," perhaps Detroit should be omitted from the payoff.
Quote from: valpo95 on May 06, 2015, 10:35:20 AM
This just seems like a terrible idea.
It can't be just a money grab, the numbers don't make any sense: If we assume a simple structure of the campus sites as 7 games played (4 in round 1, 2 round 2, and 1 championship), 2500 fans in attendance, and a ticket revenue that can be shared with the league of $10.00 per seat, that works out to $175K. Of course, not all of the games would draw 2500 fans, but the championship game surely would draw well above 2500 fans. (Again, these numbers are just rough estimates.)
So, why would the HL want to sign a contract for $200K? Maybe it is a few dollars more, but there has to be something else? Do the powers that be think that a large arena atmosphere would be better exposure for the league, even if that arena was half empty? Is it that there is too much of a home-court advantage for the first place team? I don't know the answer, but it seems the answer can't be money.
So I pulled up the box scores from the 2015 HL tourney - the total attendance across the seven games was 15,669. (No attendance figure from the UIC vs. GB played at Valpo - that was the same night as the CSU vs. Valpo game which was listed.) While it is possible not all the fans paid for the tickets or the attendance numbers were estimated, it validates the numbers I estimated above. A $200K payoff can't be much more than was earned under the existing structure.
Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2015, 09:42:40 AMNow, I next looked at Indy as an alternative. The average driving time goes up to 4.25 hours but the average for non-Detroit area teams goes down slightly to 4.25 hours.Indy is further for four teams while Detroit is further for four teams as well. I'd call it a push. Bothe cities are very close for any real fan. Valpo will travel well and Cleveland is only 2 hours away. Dayton and YSU are 3.5 hours.
Ft. Wayne probably wins, distance wise?
Not sure how it rates, attraction-wise, compared to Indy or Detroit.
Chicago might not be too bad, distance-wise. And obviously a big, attractive, city. But, I guess people would think of it as a Valpo (or UIC? ;) ) home game.
I suppose Detroit has a wide range of hotel offerings. And, maybe things will move closer to a weekend format. Thursday-Sunday maybe? For serious, kidless fans, it might be a fun road trip.
I'll certainly miss hosting the tourney on campus. I was tentatively considering staying home next year for VU's spring break, to take in more of the tournament.
It'll be hard to recreate the atmosphere we've had at Valpo tourney home games.
Quote from: a3uge on May 05, 2015, 09:21:01 PMBut before the outrage, I'd take this report with a grain of salt. PantherU has no credibility whatsoever and has been notoriously wrong about Horizon League news in the past.
I love you too buddy
(http://pantheru.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/11062709_10102660928115788_5944234555692391546_n.jpg)
Can someone write a letter to LaBarbera with all of our signatures? Or should it be addressed to LeCrone?
If Valpo indeed vote against this (still not set in stone, though it will suck if this does happen) then ML agrees with us. Sending something to LeCrone wouldn't do much as he's fairly tied to what the other ADs decide. If 7 are for it, then he can't really say "Haha, just kidding"
What's the next big announcement? IPFW within hours of our new HL tournament host city, Detroit, will be joining the HL in July.
I think a change is necessary... and that is GET RID OF LeCRONE! Let's get out of this "bush league" and let the IPFW, UMKC, Chicago State. N. KY's be the heart of the Horizon League. If these rumors are true, this is getting to be a big joke! Surely M LB sees the big picture and I trust his judgment as to the future of our conference affiliation.
I too am totally against this idea. Makes the regular season meaningless since everyone starts fresh during the tournament. Detroit is a horrible city to host this in. I would literally feel much more safer if it was played in Gary, IN. Indianapolis or even better yet, South Bend would be an ideal neutral location. Let's face it, Indiana should be the neutral state geographically for the tournament. I'm all for leaving the Horizon League. Watch their RPI plummet when their #1 team leaves again would be priceless!
I had some errands to run around Valpo today, and I spoke to eight long-time season ticket holders along my travels. All hated this proposal and none said they'd be willing to go to Detroit. One seasoned season ticket holder told me: "This means that when Valparaiso wins the regular season the reward will be a trip to Detroit where Valpo will be the visiting team to possibly two home teams, Detroit in the semi-finals and Oakland in the finals. Thanks for nothing!"
The environment at Fort Wayne was good because it was all Valpo fans. The environment at Kansas City was pitiful, outside of a few hundred Valpo fans.
I would be willing to bet that this decision to go to a neutral site tournament has a lot more to do with attracting new members to the HL than it does with anything else. We have been going after a few OVC schools for the last few years. They play a neutral site tournament format. I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament. I don't like having the tournament in Detroit the next 5 years. I think Indy would have been the better choice, but I am pretty sure we did this for the sake of future HL expansion and not as some quick money grab by the HL.
Quote from: Big D on May 06, 2015, 06:05:40 PMI know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament.
I thought Belmont would like it. With their success they would have a good chance of hosting it every other year.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 06, 2015, 06:08:12 PM
Quote from: Big D on May 06, 2015, 06:05:40 PMI know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament.
I thought Belmont would like it. With their success they would have a good chance of hosting it every other year.
FYI, Belmont lost twice to a healthy Wright State this year.
FYI,
I am against this, unless BigD is correct. However, if anything, move the site to Chicago and Indy every few years.
Also, in a few years it will be in the new Red Wing Arena. Since Detroit/HL will be hosting the 1st and 2nd round in 2018, this gives the league a warm up.
The big problem I have with all the whining amongst everyone is that you want to be considered a better league, then you need to accept the neutral site games. The nice thing is that anyone who wants to support the league will know they need to be in Detroit/Chi-town/Indy for the specific weekend before the season starts.
Quote from: Big D on May 06, 2015, 06:05:40 PM
I would be willing to bet that this decision to go to a neutral site tournament has a lot more to do with attracting new members to the HL than it does with anything else. We have been going after a few OVC schools for the last few years. They play a neutral site tournament format. I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament. I don't like having the tournament in Detroit the next 5 years. I think Indy would have been the better choice, but I am pretty sure we did this for the sake of future HL expansion and not as some quick money grab by the HL.
Location aside, we all would prefer to go the the Valley for a conference affiliation. That said, remember that the Valley plays its tournament at a neutral site, that being St. Louis. Just sayin...
I support the idea of a neutral conference tournament site, such as is found with the MVC for example, although the MVC situation is not directly on-point because no MVC team is located in St. Louis.
With a conference that has a geographically compact footprint and consists generally of members that are located in or around large urban centers, it is nearly impossible to provide a neutral venue that would not provide some type of competitive advantage for at least one league team while at the same time ensuring the possibility that fans will show up to tournament games within that conference footprint. Maybe Indy? Otherwise, Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Dayton or Cincinnati for that matter (assuming team #10 is NKU) would provide an unfair geographical competitive advantage for someone in this league regardless. Given this, from a practical standpoint, I don't care if the tournament is held in Detroit next year. We will be good enough to beat anyone anywhere as far as I am concerned. The thing that is bothersome in my mind is the five year deal.
If this proposed move is expansion motivated, as far as timing, the HL should have rolled this out after knowing what was going to happen with UAB and C-USA. There is still some potential shuffling that could occur as a result of the disposition of UAB. In other words, this should begin in either 2016 or 2017 at the earliest so that things can have time to "settle" if in fact UAB is moving to another conference. If we're changing the format to lure Belmont and/or Murray, what good is it implement the change in 2015 if either move with UAB to the MVC?
Quote from: motowntitan on May 06, 2015, 06:31:53 PM
The big problem I have with all the whining amongst everyone is that you want to be considered a better league, then you need to accept the neutral site games. The nice thing is that anyone who wants to support the league will know they need to be in Detroit/Chi-town/Indy for the specific weekend before the season starts.
Even if BigD is correct, 5 straight years in Detroit is not "neutral". It may be about as far from neutral as it can be. You and OU will have recruiting classes that will never have to play an "away" tournament game for their entire careers. For everyone else, it will be just the opposite.
And to think that someone thinks playing at a neutral site/Detroit will help attract potential new members to the League?? OK, neutral site OK but Detroit? You have got to be kidding!
From a fairness standpoint I always thought that the combination of home court plus a double bye was overkill initiated mostly to placate Butler. Personally I would prefer that the double bye format were scrapped and the highest seed home court portion were kept. Having a neutral court while keeping the double bye is just ass backward if the result is a large drop in attendance.
Maybe this is the fire our AD needs to finally remodel the ARC. I'm sure part of the reason this is happening is because the Horizon League hates our facilities and can't bare thinking about us continuing hosting for the next couple years.
Quote from: motowntitan on May 06, 2015, 06:21:57 PMQuote from: oklahomamick on May 06, 2015, 06:08:12 PMQuote from: Big D on May 06, 2015, 06:05:40 PMI know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament.
I thought Belmont would like it. With their success they would have a good chance of hosting it every other year.
FYI, Belmont lost twice to a healthy Wright State this year.
But they did win the conference tournament over a ranked team in their hometown......
The same ranked team they lost to by 15 earlier in the season. Maybe playing the tourney championship in their hometown helped?
I don't get how having a tournament in Detroit would appease Murray State, a team that was rewarded with a championship game played in Nashville after going undefeated in conference.
If anything, you've pissed off the best team in the conference last year and likely next year. Why wouldn't Valpo jump at the MVC if invited now?
Quote from: gamelord on May 06, 2015, 09:05:03 PM
Maybe this is the fire our AD needs to finally remodel the ARC. I'm sure part of the reason this is happening is because the Horizon League hates our facilities and can't bare thinking about us continuing hosting for the next couple years.
I was wondering when the issue of facilities at the ARC might be raised. ::)
I'm not going to address the state of the specifics in facilities, but I will note the atmosphere at the ARC during the tourney was one of the selling points for the league and great promotion for Valparaiso. The ESPN announcers commented upon the energy and intimate atmosphere in very positive ways. Also, go back into the forum thread from the tourney championship and read the various posts about the "great intensity," "deafening noise level," "awesome sound of the crowd," etc. As one post stated, "think of the loudest you've ever heard it at the ARC, and then double it...It was absolutely crazy."
Contrast that to the lack of energy at those mid-major tourneys in cavernous arenas at "neutral sites."I'm sure one of the multiple reasons Valpo apparently opposes this proposal is the loss of such an event as an aspect of promotion and recruiting, while Detroit and Oakland now will be able to point to the tourney in their backyard as a recruiting tool, especially for players from their region.
Quote from: Big D on May 06, 2015, 06:05:40 PM
I would be willing to bet that this decision to go to a neutral site tournament has a lot more to do with attracting new members to the HL than it does with anything else. We have been going after a few OVC schools for the last few years. They play a neutral site tournament format. I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament. I don't like having the tournament in Detroit the next 5 years. I think Indy would have been the better choice, but I am pretty sure we did this for the sake of future HL expansion and not as some quick money grab by the HL.
Agree with Big D on this one. While the game atmosphere at the school sites is great and the double-bye home site advantage marginally helped the highest seed get to the NCAA tournament, this tournament format had a small conference feel. Very few other conferences have this type (or anything close) of format. Does any conference above us in conference RPI play this kind of gimmicky format? I will readily admit that as a
fan, when we are winning I am all for the current tournament, but if I am the 4 seed that made a late season run or perhaps had a key injury early in the season, then I think it sucks. All that being said, I love the fact that the regular season counts for something and it is too bad that this will soon no longer be the case.
This just shows Finical weakness of mid Major collage Basket Ball When $20,000 per team buys the Conference Tourney, combine this with declining attendance and tough times are Coming.
I don't see Detroit being much of a home court advantage for UDM & OU. Both have a poor average attendance:
UDM - 6th in HL - 2472
OU - 9th in HL - 2142
I can't imagine them getting much more than that in the tourney.
In addition, I don't think the general population of the Detroit Metro area are interested in the Horizon League. Heck most have probably have never heard of it.
If they get even 8,000 at the Joe, it'll be over half empty.
As a native Detroiter, I hope this isn't true.
Quote from: FWalum on May 06, 2015, 09:49:06 PM
Quote from: Big D on May 06, 2015, 06:05:40 PM
I would be willing to bet that this decision to go to a neutral site tournament has a lot more to do with attracting new members to the HL than it does with anything else. We have been going after a few OVC schools for the last few years. They play a neutral site tournament format. I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament. I don't like having the tournament in Detroit the next 5 years. I think Indy would have been the better choice, but I am pretty sure we did this for the sake of future HL expansion and not as some quick money grab by the HL.
Agree with Big D on this one. While the game atmosphere at the school sites is great and the double-bye home site advantage marginally helped the highest seed get to the NCAA tournament, this tournament format had a small conference feel. Very few other conferences have this type (or anything close) of format. Does any conference above us in conference RPI play this kind of gimmicky format? I will readily admit that as a fan, when we are winning I am all for the current tournament, but if I am the 4 seed that made a late season run or perhaps had a key injury early in the season, then I think it sucks. All that being said, I love the fact that the regular season counts for something and it is too bad that this will soon no longer be the case.
On the flip side, there's plenty of neutral court championship games for lower conferences as well. I thought the North Florida ASUN home game was a great example of how the format works well. Those fans were wild and I'm sure that video looks great when attracting recruits. Conferences above us have the neutral court format because fan interest is decent enough to warrant it. Even the MVC has great attendance for Arch Madness. I really can't see Detroit hosting an event that draws in fans from across the Horizon. I feel like Indy or Chicago would do the best job of that, but not Detroit.
I agree with everyone about playing the games in Detroit. The best option for a true neutral site that would have still been fairly centrally located would have been Indy. My guess is that we made the decision on Detroit based on finances. Detroit is in shambles and was willing to not only host this for free but they are paying the conference 200K a year. Indy would have been a better choice but they wouldn't have done it for free let alone pay us to play there. Renting a suitable facility and running the tournament would have cost the HL a lot of money and each school would have spent a lot on the travel, lodging, etc. Playing it in Detroit saved us that money. Each school will walk away with 20K for this and it cost the conference nothing. If we would have done it at a truly neutral site and paid for it, it would have cost each school probably 50-75K by the time you add everything up. If you look at the budgets for most HL teams, that is significant. I think that would be the recruiting budget for at least 6 of our men's basketball programs. I think everyone involved knows this is a big gamble. They would rather gamble with Detroit's money than our own.
Ideally, I hope this works as much as I personally dislike it. I think we all want to add a few schools to the HL that we can be proud to have in the conference. I also think having a true neutral site tournament down the road (Indy) is in the HL's long term best interest.
Imagine hosting the HL championship in Hinkle! That would have been rich...
Below is a link to Oren's view on this issue. He does a good job of offering the "pro" side of the proposal, though I disagree with him on a few points. For instance, he finds it "incredibly laughable" that Valpo fans would want to move to the MVC now since it also has a neutral site tournament: "These fans are the ones who are complaining about the regular season being made useless with a neutral site tournament. Doesn't that happen in the Valley? What am I missing?" However, the issue for many Valpo fans with whom I have spoken is not that Detroit is a "neutral site tournament": they see moving to the MVC would be a step up to a multi-bid league and its tournament is in a truly more neutral site. Indeed, if a regular-season champion Valpo were to lose at the MVC tourney, an NCAA bid would still be likely. That is not the case if Valpo were to lose in a one-bid league to Oakland or Detroit in Detroit. Plus, the MVC has enough of a fan base to support such a format. As Paul notes, the attendance at the recent MVC tourney final was 13,552 (though that still means nearly half the 22,000 seat arena was empty). Finally, the MVC tourney has the advantage of a more inviting location, and I am sure more Valpo fans would be happy to visit St. Louis rather than Detroit.
Another point Oren correctly makes is that multi-bid leagues usually have neutral site locations for their tournaments. However, if I remember my college logics training, other factors might be involved. After all, the largest conferences have neutral site tourneys, but does anybody believe the Big Ten or the ACC or others would get multiple bids because of their tournament locations? The 11 conferences that received multiple bids did so because they are the top 11 conferences in rankings. The Horizon League is not, and it does not become a top-ranked league by moving to a new format; instead, its teams need to perform better in a stronger out of conference schedule. Indeed, Oren acknowledges that just as many leagues ("more than 10") with neutral sites still received only one bid, and the Horizon League has received multiple bids in the past using the on-campus format.
Despite my differences—and apparently also the Valpo administration's differences—with Paul on this proposal, it is great to have a sports reporter who regularly presents issues with seriousness and depth to further the conversation.
http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/changes-on-the-horizon/article_aca40226-f48d-11e4-ac81-fbd63dcac062.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/changes-on-the-horizon/article_aca40226-f48d-11e4-ac81-fbd63dcac062.html)
Quote from: Big D on May 07, 2015, 07:29:11 AM
I think we all want to add a few schools to the HL that we can be proud to have in the conference. I also think having a true neutral site tournament down the road (Indy) is in the HL's long term best interest.
If conference expansion is the driver of this move, then the new schools better be along the lines of UAB, Belmont or Murray State. If the net gain is a school along the lines of a IPFW, IUPUI or Northern Kentucky, then this move is a joke.
Quote from: webbvufan on May 07, 2015, 08:46:01 AM
Quote from: Big D on May 07, 2015, 07:29:11 AM
I think we all want to add a few schools to the HL that we can be proud to have in the conference. I also think having a true neutral site tournament down the road (Indy) is in the HL's long term best interest.
If conference expansion is the driver of this move, then the new schools better be along the lines of UAB, Belmont or Murray State. If the net gain is a school along the lines of a IPFW, IUPUI or Northern Kentucky, then this move is a joke.
IMO, a five year deal to hold the tournament in the city of Detroit pretty much negates any move by UAB to the HL. Why would UAB travel 700 miles north over the next five years to a neutral tournament site for its conference tournament when St. Louis is 200 or so miles closer and that tournament location is part of a stronger conference? I'm not suggesting that UAB and the HL were ever in consideration of one another, but if they were, a neutral tournament location in Detroit over the next five years would be an odd welcoming present for a school located in Alabama, wouldn't it?
This hurts Valpo because we just lost a big recruiting advantage. 3 out of the last 4 years with a good chance being 4 out of the last 5 years we have seen a great environment at the ARC on ESPN2. If we had a recruit on the fence, that experience may have changed his mind and commit to Valpo. Not anymore.
This hurt good programs like Valpo and helped average programs like Oakland and Detroit.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 07, 2015, 11:08:05 AM
This hurts Valpo because we just lost a big recruiting advantage. 3 out of the last 4 years with a good chance being 4 out of the last 5 years we have seen a great environment at the ARC on ESPN2. If we had a recruit on the fence, that experience may have changed his mind and commit to Valpo. Not anymore.
This hurt good programs like Valpo and helped average programs like Oakland and Detroit.
............and does nothing to shore up the bottom of the league.
Heck, even though it's in Ohio , wouldn't Columbus be a better
centralized neutral choice? I don't even know if there is an arena there that would be suitable, but just saying....
And another thought on the choice of arenas: What's the point of playing in any arena with a capacity over 10K? No HL game will draw more than maybe 8K with some luck and a matchup of schools that travel well. The HL title game will be lost in an arena that is maybe 1/3 full and amid the echos of sneaker squeaks on the hardwood. It certainly would not be a good lead-in to March Madness like the games at the ARC.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 07, 2015, 01:26:02 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 07, 2015, 11:08:05 AM
This hurts Valpo because we just lost a big recruiting advantage. 3 out of the last 4 years with a good chance being 4 out of the last 5 years we have seen a great environment at the ARC on ESPN2. If we had a recruit on the fence, that experience may have changed his mind and commit to Valpo. Not anymore.
This hurt good programs like Valpo and helped average programs like Oakland and Detroit.
............and does nothing to shore up the bottom of the league.
Heck, even though it's in Ohio , wouldn't Columbus be a better centralized neutral choice? I don't even know if there is an arena there that would be suitable, but just saying....
And another thought on the choice of arenas: What's the point of playing in any arena with a capacity over 10K? No HL game will draw more than maybe 8K with some luck and a matchup of schools that travel well. The HL title game will be lost in an arena that is maybe 1/3 full and amid the echos of sneaker squeaks on the hardwood. It certainly would not be a good lead-in to March Madness like the games at the ARC.
The point was made earlier, and it is a good one, that to play at any other site or city would cost each school a bunch, making it unfeasible. Detroit is actually paying us, not the other way around. Still doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons, bt the location, if required, does make
financial sense.
http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/olympia-entertainment-horizon-league-reach-agreement-on-mens-basketball-championship (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/olympia-entertainment-horizon-league-reach-agreement-on-mens-basketball-championship)
At least for 2016 the championship is still on Tuesday. We'll see how that works out for them...
I suppose, if I'm home for spring break, I might make the drive up for the game...
We surely have a certain number of Detroit-area students, so might have a certain amount of local support.
"The 2016 Horizon League men's basketball championship game will keep its current Tuesday, March 8, slot on ESPN or ESPN2 at 7 p.m. ET. Additional game dates, times, network information, and tournament format will be announced at a later date."
Would anyone be surprised if they changed the format too?
I think they are waiting to announce the 10th team and then they'll announce a 10 team bracket format.
1 vs double bye
2 vs. double bye
3 vs 10
4 vs 9
5 vs 8
6 vs 7
Don't be surprised to see a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday schedule to work around hockey. Oakland players would die if they ever made the championship game.
Since this is a Valpo fan forum and I am a fan of Valpo basketball, I unapologetically view the official announcement from a "what's best for Valpo" perspective, and I see nothing good at all. Valparaiso, favored to win the regular season next year and the following, will now have to play the tourney on the road. The reward for winning the regular season is lost. The home teams always will be Detroit and Oakland (who will receive the advantages home teams enjoy), which the Crusaders might have to play in consecutive games (semifinal & final) even if the double-bye continues. Since the Horizon League has done nothing yet to improve the possibility of becoming more than a one-bid conference, the chance of the regular-season champion missing the NCAA is increased.
In addition, the possibility of showcasing the energetic atmosphere at the ARC on ESPN is gone, as is that event as a recruiting tool. On the other hand, the recruiting opportunities for Oakland and Detroit are enhanced, especially among players from their region. Few of our older long-time Valparaiso season ticket holders are going to be willing to travel to an unappealing Detroit, likely in winter weather, on a Tuesday to attend the championship. Students will be away on Spring break, most likely in warmer climates. Finally, as a Valparaiso resident, I see this as taking potential income away from the community that comes with hosting the tournament: the hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc. [Much of the above applies to others in the conference, especially those farthest away from Detroit like Green Bay and Milwaukee.]
There are other negatives, including the Horizon League moving other activities to Detroit, but not a single positive for Valparaiso. I can understand, if reports are correct, why Valparaiso University voted in opposition to this, and I commend the Valpo administration. Let's pray for a call from the multi-bid MVC with a true neutral tournament in St.Louis where even with a loss an NCAA tourney invite still would be a possibility.
Does everyone see the irony (intended or not) in Valpo's announcement of the move to Detroit by displaying a short video exhibiting the excitement and energy at the ARC during the last tournament accompanied by a dry caption statement lacking any enthusiasm? ;)
[tweet]596412436619534336[/tweet]
First, the league moves to add Northern Kentucky, and now this? If this doesn't create some urgency to get our ducks in a row to make a move to a legitimate conference, I don't know what will. This is so moronic, it makes you wonder what's in the water in Indy.
On the bright side, this creates plenty of opportunities for the promotions department - all fans 21 and over receive a complimentary Glock, bulletproof vests for the first 200 fans through the door, Mace key chains for any fan wearing school apparel, etc.
I can understand the HL desire to move to a neutral site, but only if and when the HL becomes a legitimate regular multi-bid conference. Going to a neutral format will not help this cause. Until we regularly have 2-3 teams in the top 50 (RPI, Sagarin, whatever), we will not be a multi bid league. In the off chance we have one team that is top 30 or so, we could become a two bid league if that team is upset during the tournament, but still gets an invite. The HL tournament approach of giving value to the regular season champion is great for that school, the surrounding community, and the TV audience. If we go to Detroit for 5 (way too many) years, the only advantage is to those who desire to take a nap during the games.
Quote from: Kyle321n on May 07, 2015, 03:02:50 PM
I think they are waiting to announce the 10th team and then they'll announce a 10 team bracket format.
1 vs double bye
2 vs. double bye
3 vs 10
4 vs 9
5 vs 8
6 vs 7
If the 10th team is NKU, will they be eligible for the HL tournament/NCAA tournament?
Quote from: covufan on May 07, 2015, 04:54:00 PM
Quote from: Kyle321n on May 07, 2015, 03:02:50 PM
I think they are waiting to announce the 10th team and then they'll announce a 10 team bracket format.
1 vs double bye
2 vs. double bye
3 vs 10
4 vs 9
5 vs 8
6 vs 7
If the 10th team is NKU, will they be eligible for the HL tournament/NCAA tournament?
Yes, they are eligible immediately.
Facebook fans don't like it either, if you read the comments on the Valpo Men's Basketball page and the Horizon League page. The only ones who seem to be in favor of the move are OU and UDM fans. :crazy:
Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2015, 09:02:47 AM
I think there is another side to this discussion. I never went but some of the older guys on this forum did go to the tournaments held at neutral sites like Kansas City. I don't really think the Tulsa tourneys count in that regard. I think the sentiment is that those days brought fans from every school and had a more "tournament" like atmosphere. I understand the lowly number of fans at title games if someone other than, in the Detroit case, OU or UDM was playing. Still, playing at a site in a major city certainly would draw more folks then trying to get folks from Cleveland or Detroit to come and spend a few days in Valpo--no knock on the City of Valparaiso--but to fans from larger cities it would seem hard to imagine what to do with spare time.
DING! DING! DING!
:clap:
As someone who has attended both the MVC tournament and HL Tournament (in Valpo) multiple times, I think that they were both fine in the formats they used this past year. It would be a completely unfair comparison to say that having a neutral site tournament in St. Louis is like having a tournament in a city which houses 2 of the 9/10 member schools. With the tournament being in Detroit I think they'll have to tweak the format somewhat, whether by adding another team, eliminating double byes, or moving it to the weekend (I can't imagine too many UWM, UWGB, UIC, or Valpo fans making the trip to Detroit for Fri/Sat and then coming back for a Tuesday night). Messing with any of those features would pretty much eliminate the top seed advantage that has been in the HL for awhile (which I don't think is a bad thing), while also giving a clear home court/city advantage to OU and UDM.
One of the best features of Arch Madness is that it's in a convenient location and weekend timeslot that allows fans (especially families) to make it there and back while only missing school/work on Friday and I don't think they'd get nearly the attendance they currently draw by playing on a Tuesday. I know that the MVC requires each school to purchase a minimum of 225 all session passes with many schools selling more, like Wichita State's roughly 2300 this season. I'm not sure what the requirements for tickets sold per school in a HL tourney would be, but I would have to assume that a Detroit tournament would lose a lot of the attendance that has been at the school-hosted tournament games in the past. There would need to be a solid base of fans, students, and other attendees to not only make the HL look attractive to TV viewers and recruits, but also to try and keep the tournament there past the 5 years they're starting with.
Sorry for rambling, but as a whole I think it's a bad decision for the conference, excluding OU and UDM, but I'm willing to wait and see the results from the first couple of years to really condemn the idea.
Just as a side note here is how the MVC presold ticketing was divided between schools, sponsors, and students this past season: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9nbIqxCcAA0aGT.jpg
Like ValpoPal, I will state upfront that I come at this from a totally biased perspective -- that of a Horizon League fan.
I can't really evaluate the location chosen, so this is not an endorsement of Detroit.
I love this news because I want to attend ALL the conference tournament games and watch them live in person. I'm sick and tired of picking one Tuesday night game to watch on my stupid laptop at home and missing the other 3 (2 since 2012, 1 last year). I want to go and see all the teams play at least one game at a neutral site (I know it's in Detroit, but it's *not* at Calihan). I want the potential of congregating with fans from all the other teams. I want to take the extended weekend off and just get away from work and the daily grind and just soak up basketball. My only regret is that it looks like the Women's tourney is not changing its configuration.
This is what I miss the most about the Mid-Continent conference. I used to do all of that every year, and even in Tulsa it was a lot of fun, especially 2005.
I don't fully understand the argument Paul Oren made about Neutral site tourneys correlating to multi-bid leagues, but this much I do understand: the format the HL has been using since 2004 is very much the behavior of a one-bid league (Butler was an anomaly in that regard). The idea of "protecting" top seeds has always offended me. Top seeds shouldn't need protecting.
I also care more about the games themselves than how full the stands are or how many people are watching. I have come to this in my college basketball journey: I'd rather go to a game than watch it on TV because the latter layers a whole bunch of distracting hype on top of the actual game (sometimes literally obliterating the action with graphics on the screen).
I get the whole "we don't want to send a crappy team that gets hot as a 15/16 seed just to get trounced" argument, but the real answer to that is to improve the quality of the teams in the conference. I've had my fill of the artificial fix brought about by the current format (by the way, I think the conspiracy theorists might be on to something about this really being about Butler and nothing else).
I do sympathize with Valpo, who was probably looking forward to hosting again next year. Obviously, we can't expect that our reaction would be the same if we were looking at a rebuilding year. And as a partisan Valpo fan, I do feel that pull.
I can't help but remember RB ranting and raving at Kemper Arena back in 2004 about how Oral Roberts was buying the auto-bid. Think about that: sitting in a Kansas City sports venue, a 5-minute drive for the UMKC team bus, and he's pissed off because Tulsa won the bid next year (I sensed a similar sentiment though surely expressed in a much more mature way by Homer Drew at the pep rally that year). Nobody was accusing UMKC of trying to buy the auto-bid, and they were a decent contender. Reason? Either Valpo fans figured UMKC always fades against Valpo (and they did once again) or they figured Roo fans wouldn't fill the place (they didn't, but they dominated the place in their Qtrfinal and Semifinal games) -- or Valpo didn't hate UMKC like they hated ORU. The prejudice seemed thinly veiled to me.
I told RB "Would you stop worrying! We're gonna win it next year too." LOL... But anyway, I think Mark Labarbera's public statement on this is just right: We're not concerned about the format or the location. We're only concerned with being the best team we can be.
The answer here is to move toward a time when none of our knee-jerk concerns will matter anymore, because at least a handful of teams will be at-large worthy and then winning the title game won't be one-and-only path to the Big Dance. And the way to do that is by every team raising their performance standard up to that level. Is that pretty hard? Sure! It's a challenge, and I love watching teams meet that challenge head-on and do their best to overcome it. That's why I'll never root for the power conference schools. Their "challenges" don't impress me all that much.
By the way, I haven't heard anything about them getting rid of the double-byes, and if they don't, I still see significant incentive to win the regular season title. The motivation is not quite as strong, but it's still strong.
Everything that should have been said was probably already said. Asinine, no positives whatsoever. We will just have to be that much more confident in our players.
I am now fully in support of a move to the MVC, if offered. I don't care about the neutral site arenas that leagues play in, unless it is within the same city of schools in the conference, and especially for 5 seasons. I have no issue going to STL every year, knowing that EVERY team is playing on the road. My gut feel is that the HL wants to keep Oakland and Detroit around, and since Valpo/UIC flirted with the MVC, they didn't want to consider Chicago.
I don't get why everyone still thinks a move to the MVC is possible in the future. I don't see them adding a team unless Wichita bolts which I don't think they will. If they did add two teams I think it would be Murray St and Belmont. To be honest I think we are stuck in the Horizon League for a long long time.
We got passed up and Loyola was chosen over us. There is no commitment on needed facility improvements. We have poor attendance, poor marketing exposure, and we cannot beat a major team. So we really are not that attractive to other leagues.
I am willing to bet in the next 2-5 years IUPUI and IPFW join the Horizon.
The thing that upsets me the most is that it is effective immediately. I would be more willing to accept it if this was going to be done gradually...in 2 years or so. To me this is a big slap to Valpo. I'm starting to think a move back down to the Summit League would be better than staying in a conference that doesn't care about its top school.
Quote from: Chairback on May 07, 2015, 08:20:26 PM
I don't get why everyone still thinks a move to the MVC is possible in the future. I don't see them adding a team unless Wichita bolts which I don't think they will. If they did add two teams I think it would be Murray St and Belmont. To be honest I think we are stuck in the Horizon League for a long long time.
We got passed up and Loyola was chosen over us. There is no commitment on needed facility improvements. We have poor attendance, poor marketing exposure, and we cannot beat a major team. So we really are not that attractive to other leagues.
I am willing to bet in the next 2-5 years IUPUI and IPFW join the Horizon.
Explain which major teams exactly did Loyola beat to make them attractive?
Quote from: gamelord on May 07, 2015, 08:30:14 PM
The thing that upsets me the most is that it is effective immediately. I would be more willing to accept it if this was going to be done gradually...in 2 years or so. To me this is a big slap to Valpo. I'm starting to think a move back down to the Summit League would be better than staying in a conference that doesn't care about its top school.
You do realize they play their championship game in Souix Falls, right?
From twitter, here is Michael Osipoff's quote from Mark LaBarbera about the Horizon League tournament decision that Osipoff labels "interesting," and it certainly is interesting how ML distances Valpo far from the league on this issue and uses a "we" and "they" construct to emphasize the gap. The last sentence contains particularly telling phrasing.
"We were of the opinion that the previous format worked well and the league accomplished all the goals it had set under the previous format. But if the league and the members of the league wanted to go in a different direction, that's fine. We're happy the tournament is going to a city that embraces it and an arena that's behind it. It's appropriate that they're excited." —Mark LaBarbera
I'm disappointed it's not a campus but I would have settled for Chicago.
Quote from: a3uge on May 07, 2015, 08:34:23 PM
Quote from: gamelord on May 07, 2015, 08:30:14 PM
The thing that upsets me the most is that it is effective immediately. I would be more willing to accept it if this was going to be done gradually...in 2 years or so. To me this is a big slap to Valpo. I'm starting to think a move back down to the Summit League would be better than staying in a conference that doesn't care about its top school.
You do realize they play their championship game in Souix Falls, right?
Actually the Summit League has played the SL tourney in Sioux Falls since the time that Tulsa's hosting ended.
Where is Souix Falls? Is that in Illinois? Kansas? Nebraska? Minnesota?
(http://www.frfcpa.com/media/library/pages/home/slideshow/SiouxFallsSkyline.jpg)
Does Souix (So-ou-iks?) Falls look anything like Sioux (Soo) Falls?
I am glad to see that MLB is on the same page as most of the fans on the conference championship selection. Interesting note with the Sioux Falls reference, but I will actually be there in 3 weeks for a cousin's wedding :)
I have no regrets. There shouldn't be an x in that word anyways.
Quote from: a3uge on May 07, 2015, 05:12:49 PMQuote from: covufan on May 07, 2015, 04:54:00 PMQuote from: Kyle321n on May 07, 2015, 03:02:50 PMI think they are waiting to announce the 10th team and then they'll announce a 10 team bracket format. 1 vs double bye 2 vs. double bye 3 vs 10 4 vs 9 5 vs 8 6 vs 7
If the 10th team is NKU, will they be eligible for the HL tournament/NCAA tournament?
Yes, they are eligible immediately.
From another thread:
Quote from: bbtds on January 12, 2015, 06:44:07 PMQuote from: valporun on January 12, 2015, 05:29:16 PMIn terms of expansion, doesn't Northern Kentucky still have a couple of seasons before they are full-fledged members of D-I? I mean, they are probationary members of D-I currently, correct?
NKU is in the process of classifying to the NCAA Division I. During the four-year reclassification, NKU will not be eligible for Division I championships. The university ended its membership in the Great Lakes Valley Conference (GLVC) at the conclusion of the 2011–12 academic year and began playing a full Atlantic Sun conference schedule in fall 2012. Following the four years, NKU will become a full Division I member.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Kentucky_Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Kentucky_Norse)
That means the Norse will be full fledged Div. I members as of the conclusion of the 2015-16 academic year.
It sounds like if NKU was added over this summer that they would not be eligible for the HL tournament until the 2016-17 season and could not participate in the HL tournament in Joe Louis Arena in Detroit in March of 2016.
Quote from: a3uge on May 07, 2015, 08:32:28 PM
Quote from: Chairback on May 07, 2015, 08:20:26 PM
I don't get why everyone still thinks a move to the MVC is possible in the future. I don't see them adding a team unless Wichita bolts which I don't think they will. If they did add two teams I think it would be Murray St and Belmont. To be honest I think we are stuck in the Horizon League for a long long time.
We got passed up and Loyola was chosen over us. There is no commitment on needed facility improvements. We have poor attendance, poor marketing exposure, and we cannot beat a major team. So we really are not that attractive to other leagues.
I am willing to bet in the next 2-5 years IUPUI and IPFW join the Horizon.
Explain which major teams exactly did Loyola beat to make them attractive?
To be fair, you don't have to necessarily beat anyone to be attractive to a new conference when you've allocated substantial dollars to
both athletic and academic or student experience facilities like Loyola has done recently.
You should know that it's sometimes not about on-field or on-court results when it comes to conference realignment. Of substantial note, Rutgers did what exactly to warrant entry into the Big 10?
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 08, 2015, 10:52:05 AM
You should know that it's sometimes not about on-field or on-court results when it comes to conference realignment. Of substantial note, Rutgers did what exactly to warrant entry into the Big 10?
Simply put....They did be in the NY metro area TV market.
Check out over on the Milwaukee fan board where Hack has posted a nice gallery of videos displaying the packed houses and energetic crowds at Horizon League championships on campus sites over the past 10 years (link below). On twitter, PantherU said he has talked to many coaches and this Horizon League championship experience was envied by quite a few mid-major coaches. So far, LeCrone has pretended to have enthusiastic and positive responses to the league's announcement, even among the Horizon League coaches; however, other than Kampe, I have heard nothing but the sound of crickets coming from the coaches' offices around the league. Indeed, the poor rollout of this plan and the lack of acknowledgement to widespread negative fan response seem evidence of a lacking already in the new promotional genius for branding and marketing heralded by the announcement.
This should be required viewing for every Horizon League official: http://uwmfreak.proboards.com/thread/6859/hl-tournament-neutral?page=4 (http://uwmfreak.proboards.com/thread/6859/hl-tournament-neutral?page=4)
Maybe they voted on a neutral court before knowing the location? Hard to imagine Milwaukee and Green Bay being okay with 5 years of Detroit when Chicago or Indy could have been decent neutral locations.
The fact that it seems have been rammed through and that at least 2 schools said no and that most school supporters are basically negative tells me that Lecrone has gone to the Roger Goodell school of management.
What the heck is this Detroit News writer talking about....??? Moving Horizon League Tourney (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/07/jla-to-host-horizon-league-basketball-tournament/70957924/)
QuoteThe Detroit plan puts the whole tournament, including opening-round games, in the city, a single site, regardless if Oakland or Detroit happen to be eliminated before the championship game.
Therefore, this could give the tournament a bigger spotlight, in a bigger media market than, say, Valparaiso. That's welcomed news for ESPN, which retains the rights to broadcast the championship game — and figures to be much more likely to put the final on ESPN rather than ESPN2 if there's not a bunch of empty seats, like there often is when the game is held at a campus site.
Obviously didn't attend many Horizon League Championship games.
Quote from: FWalum on May 09, 2015, 12:41:47 AM
What the heck is this Detroit News writer talking about....??? Moving Horizon League Tourney (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/07/jla-to-host-horizon-league-basketball-tournament/70957924/)
QuoteThe Detroit plan puts the whole tournament, including opening-round games, in the city, a single site, regardless if Oakland or Detroit happen to be eliminated before the championship game.
Therefore, this could give the tournament a bigger spotlight, in a bigger media market than, say, Valparaiso. That's welcomed news for ESPN, which retains the rights to broadcast the championship game — and figures to be much more likely to put the final on ESPN rather than ESPN2 if there's not a bunch of empty seats, like there often is when the game is held at a campus site.
Obviously didn't attend many Horizon League Championship games.
Haha. Why would anyone write that? Never mind the nonsense claim that there has been empty seats at championship games and that a game in Detroit would fill a 22,000 seat stadium. ESPN is going to put the championship game on the top network based off of television viewership, not how many people are in the stands. Does the MAC have a bigger spotlight right now because it's being held in Cleveland? Laughable because the game in the Valparaiso media market was on ESPN1 while the MAC empty-seat final was on ESPN2, despite having a school that would wind up a better seed.
I think the new format will help fans who need to make plans sooner than a week or two in advance. Also, agree with the 'major' city comments although not sure how 'attractive' Detroit is....I will miss having the tournament in Valpo.
Here's a thought though - - how does Valpo playing in front of its own fans, on its own Court (4,000 attendance) help them prepare for the NCAA tournament where it is neutral with 15,000+ in attendance? This will now at least give the winner a chance to play on a neutral atmosphere in an arena setting - - much like the NCAA tournament games.
As an aside, I've been to Sioux Falls this past summer. I really liked the city. I would go to a city like that to watch a weekend tournament. Detroit? I'll pass...
Quote from: webbvufan on May 06, 2015, 07:05:30 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on May 06, 2015, 06:31:53 PM
The big problem I have with all the whining amongst everyone is that you want to be considered a better league, then you need to accept the neutral site games. The nice thing is that anyone who wants to support the league will know they need to be in Detroit/Chi-town/Indy for the specific weekend before the season starts.
Even if BigD is correct, 5 straight years in Detroit is not "neutral". It may be about as far from neutral as it can be. You and OU will have recruiting classes that will never have to play an "away" tournament game for their entire careers. For everyone else, it will be just the opposite.
Boy, talk about taking out of context. You only quoted my final statement. You failed to include the part where I said I was against this, unless you switch it up every few years.
However, I now realize that Indy/Chicago were probably never considered due to the Big10 tournament being in Indy. I know they are moving it around, but will probably also land back in Chicago. Makes planning for the future more dependent on them.
Finally, I have said for years that when we lost Butler (10,000) and Loyola (4,400), and replaced them with Oakland (3,000), that LeCrone should be fired. That was the time to bring in Murray State (8,800)/Belmont (5,000). It's not that I hate Oakland, it is just a numbers game.
You either get busy living, or get busy dying.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 06, 2015, 09:08:09 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on May 06, 2015, 06:21:57 PMQuote from: oklahomamick on May 06, 2015, 06:08:12 PMQuote from: Big D on May 06, 2015, 06:05:40 PMI know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament.
I thought Belmont would like it. With their success they would have a good chance of hosting it every other year.
FYI, Belmont lost twice to a healthy Wright State this year.
But they did win the conference tournament over a ranked team in their hometown......
The same ranked team they lost to by 15 earlier in the season. Maybe playing the tourney championship in their hometown helped?
Belmont lost AT Murray State and only played them once in the regular season. Maybe if the first game was at Belmont, the outcome would have been different? But I see your point for Oakland, especially next year. However, we have sent 4 teams to the NCAA in the past four years, with almost the same embarrassing results. What experience is gained to better prepare you for the NCAA by playing on your home court?
Despite all our thoughts about where a neutral site tournament should be held, if I read the announcement correctly, it said RFPs were sent to many cities. That would mean that the best of those who responded (few, apparently) was the proposal from Detroit. I doubt that $20,000 income per school was a major motivating factor. Also, if I understand a comment made on the board, if the tournament championship game is remaining on Tuesday night and will be televised on ESPN or ESPN2 at 6 pm, isn't that earlier than the game this year which was a "prime time" game. As I recall, the Mid-Con/Summit level conferences usually get the early time slots.
Quote from: sliman on May 09, 2015, 11:51:41 AM
Despite all our thoughts about where a neutral site tournament should be held, if I read the announcement correctly, it said RFPs were sent to many cities. That would mean that the best of those who responded (few, apparently) was the proposal from Detroit. I doubt that $20,000 income per school was a major motivating factor. Also, if I understand a comment made on the board, if the tournament championship game is remaining on Tuesday night and will be televised on ESPN or ESPN2 at 6 pm, isn't that earlier than the game this year which was a "prime time" game. As I recall, the Mid-Con/Summit level conferences usually get the early time slots.
Horizon League sent out preliminary informal feelers over the last 18-24 months to various communities in the Midwest. Sounds like nothing worked out either due to lack of dates, lack of available facilities or lack of interest. Olympia Entertainment came calling right after the conference tournament this year and put together a proposal which "blew away" the Horizon League. LeCrone and his staff never got to the RFP phase with other cities after Detroit got in the mix.
Apparently, Valpo and UIC were the only schools to vote against this proposal. Can anyone confirm?
Okie dokie, Hello Everyone! I guess this is time for a short intro. I am a Valpo Grad from the Class of 2014. I was very involved in the Pep Band during my time and Valpo and managed to travel to many Valpo Basketball games as a band member and as a fan. Valpo Basketball has been one of my favorite things over my four years at Valpo. This year, as a recent alum, living and working in Cleveland, I had a blast following along and made my fair share of games when able (Home at GB, at IPFW, at Detroit, at CSU, and the NCAA tourney game in Columbus). I really enjoy following this forum and hope to contribute sporadically in the future! But I never have really felt like posting until today. :)
Anyway, I would like to share my thoughts on the conference tournament move as a recent student that I know several other recent "diehard" students agree with me on or at least acknowledge and understand. Apologies in advance that this is actually pretty long, but this post probably has been a while in the making!
First, as a Valpo fan and fanatic of the college basketball environment, this is a devastating blow. The Horizon League was one of the few conference tournaments that valued the regular season and offered the home court conference tournament and the double bye to the regular season champion. The semi-finals and finals offered an outstanding environment to the home team fans and showed a packed crowd on ESPN. Valpo benefited greatly from this as our cozy ARC and small community made the conference tournament fun. 2012, 2013, and 2015 were great years and I was happy to see at least two of them live.
However, the old Horizon League Conference Tournament was fatally flawed. The logistical aspects reared their ugly head as soon as Butler left the Horizon League. The *only* arena and team worth hosting the tournament- Butler at Hinkle Fieldhouse- was gone. Butler and Hinkle offered the success of Butler in basketball, the history and intrigue of Hinkle, and the central location of Indianapolis, which is also the home headquarters of the Horizon League. This absolutely gutted the financial gain from the conference tournaments, as the Horizon League tournament had quite the run in Indy. With Butler gone, the Horizon League tournament brand faded. Valpo and Oakland could sell out with their smaller arenas, Green Bay and Wright State did not sellout (albeit they were close) when they hosted in 2014, UWM didn't sell out the semi-finals but that final v. Butler was packed in 2011, Cleveland State couldn't fill half the arena when they had a chance to clinch the Horizon League Regular Season in late February, and the remaining HL teams (Detroit, UIC, YSU, and even the new NKU) wouldn't ever have the fan base to host a sellout, not a chance. Thus, you had very little chance to make money on the actual venue. The posts on the UWM page are exciting with full arenas, but how many of those include a Butler matchup?? Or UWM during the Bruce Pearl Sweet Sixteen era??? And you have 3 games in the small ARC that still had some gaps in the corners, so that accounts for how many seasons?? But how do you make money on the conference tournaments? Easy, the venue, the city, and the ESPN/TV contract, which all meant the location change.
Before I dig in further about Joe Louis and Detroit, let me go over some recent HL tourney history that likely got this conversation started. The year was 2014. The University of Wisconsin- Green Bay won its first Horizon League regular season championship since 1996. Their anxious fan base awaited the HL tournament appearance at the Resch Center. The quarterfinals occurred on Friday, March 7 and featured Wright State v. Oakland and UWM vs. Valpo. What was the fan experience like at those games? Awful. (I was there.) The combined attendance for the quarterfinals was 1,770 and I would say that half were UWGB fans that were scoping the competition and were supporting their athletic departments. Valpo brought the band and the student section was three students including myself. I know that some other students were there, but not in the designated section. Wright State just had the band. Oakland and Milwaukee had their bands and it also looked like they brought a bus of students as well. However, Green Bay had the largest mass of fans for all Horizon League schools except Milwaukee. It was a terrible atmosphere. (And if you don't win the regular season, who really wants to make the long trip to Green Bay??? I know of several older alumni, including the late "V-Man" who actually said that they were not going to go, although they would travel to Milwaukee or UIC.)
So the semifinals occur and there is a large capacity crowd of 7,100+ out of an almost 10k capacity arena, so 70% full with 6,000 or more UWGB fans. And the Phoenix lose. So now there is a problem. The Horizon League and ESPN have 2.5 days to pack the banners, cameras, staff, etc. to get to... where? O yeah, the Nutter Center at Wright State. That is an 8 hour drive from Green Bay or a very expensive flight from Green Bay to either Columbus, Cincy, or Dayton itself. Not to mention that there has to be marketing for the tickets and all of the new logistics in Dayton. I am 10000% positive that Green Bay losing was a catastrophic nightmare for the Horizon League Staff and ESPN. Also, this was the first time that the semifinals and finals were not at the same site since 2004 and the location difference couldn't get much farther. The Nutter Center hosted 7500 people for that final, which is about 75% capacity so not bad, but lots of money was lost with the logistics change, I'm sure, and thus, stability was needed for the conference tournament with a permanent site.
So why Joe Louis Arena and Detroit over Indianapolis or another city? Well, the Horizon League has truly lost its Indiana roots. Although we Valpo fans call Indiana home, we are far from Indy and we are in the shadow of other teams in the state, and we have issues even filling our ARC. We probably would be more inclined to go to Chicago over Indy for things, although Indy wouldn't be terrible. However, there is no school within two hours of Indy and beyond that Valpo or Wright State would be the closest. So why not Chicago? The easiest thing would be one of the non-United Center venues. There is no way the United Center would be remotely interested in the Horizon League tourney with the Bulls, Hawks, Concerts, and the occasional B1G Tourney. So what other venues are there? Allstate Arena isn't a bad option but with DePaul vacating the arena soon would how much longer is this place going to be used for anything significant other than concerts? There is no appeal. The Sears Centre in Hoffman Estates offers a very nice facility but the Big Ten Women's Basketball Tournament is contracted there for a while, during the Horizon League Tournament dates... o well. For Milwaukee, is the Bradley Center appealing for outsiders? And would any school east of Valpo attend? Seems like a similar problem to Green Bay in 2014 and if we think Detroit is a home site for UDM and OU, wouldn't the Bradley Center be the home site for UWM? For Cleveland, Quicken Loans Arena is booked for the Cavs, Lake Erie Monsters Hockey, and they host the MAC tournament. Not a chance. So that leaves us with Detroit, specifically at Joe Louis Arena.
The deal with Detroit makes sense. Joe Louis Arena is not used for much other than hockey, or at least nothing money breaking. Detroit is about the best you will get for a central location that could actually bring in a more diverse group of fans. Plus, we get to be likely the first college basketball users of the new Detroit arena and we can lay claim to it as ours. A neutral court gives the Horizon League Tournament that March-feel and offers more than just an autobid. We can prepare for the tournament on a site where a win can mean something. We can get use to those large arenas that March Madness takes over. (Although Hoosiers makes it seem simple with the hoop measurement exercise, I am sure that it is a huge difference as a player.) The Horizon League can finally gain some reputation back with this new contract. Think of the ESPN headlines: "Horizon League Rivals Oakland and Valparaiso play for the Horizon League Crown in likely the final basketball game at Joe Louis Arena." It actually sounds appealing compared to our homey HL arenas. Finally, how about the $$$??? This is all a business move and we hate it for it, but the permanent neutral site will save on the moving expenses and the ESPN contract will probably return to the Butler days where the semifinals are on ESPN2 not ESPNU and the quarterfinals may even make it to ESPNU? Valpo can benefit great from this!
So now... what do I think? My knee jerk reaction was: "ARE YOU F---ING kidding me?!?!?!?!?" But after really writing this out, I actually kinda like it. Does it give Oakland and Detroit an advantage? Maybe. I agree with Oren's article when he says: "Well, that works very nicely for two of the schools in the Horizon League. Detroit's campus is just 9.5 miles from Joe Louis Arena while Oakland's campus is 28.5 miles. Not so neutral for those two programs. Then again, I went to a Detroit basketball game at Calihan Hall this year and there were very few people in the stands and this was on Senior Night no less. Section 313 (the student section known for their artistic talents) was empty. Oakland typically has a good fan base, but the O'Rena is so small that it's hard to gauge just how many people get fired up over Golden Grizz hoops." In my opinion, I do think that Oakland may very well take advantage of the closer HL tourney court. But think of it like this, would you rather go to Joe Louis or UDM/Oakland. Joe Louis is a neutral site and you would be comfortably around Valpo fans and you would only have minor heckling from opposing fans. If you went to Calihan, you actually could be shot with the neighborhood it's in. If you were at the O'rena, you would be one of probably 100 Valpo fans surrounded by a packed arena of menacing Golden Grizzlies fans, that would be fun during the regular season, but during the HL tourney, I do not want to face that. As Valpo fans, we would miss hosting the HL tournament when we win the regular season, but the benefits that a neutral court brings if we lose the 1st place tiebreak and end up 2nd, 3rd, or 4th make the tournament less difficult. (Just think, if we lost to CSU and Oakland beat GB, we could have had to play Detroit and CSU at Wolstein Center and then either at GB or Oakland, yikes!)
There are a lot of benefits, but still with the drawback of fan environment and attendance. The fact is that the regular season is still important, the environment at those games now have more pressure to be great because there is no "maybe one more game at home" after senior day. We have been spoiled as Valpo fans with hosting the tourney three times recently, but now it is about regaining the prestige of the Horizon League before it becomes the Mid-Con all over again. A neutral site tourney in a "desirable" location does that. The recruiting advantage with the packed home tourney games is gone but let's send an army of 2000-5000 Valpo fans to Detroit and show that we support our team in Valpo, in Detroit, and in the NCAA tournament. I've seen talk on this forum that we should look to become the next Wichita State or Gonzaga or Butler. Then, let's show it! Let's not whine about the loss of our cozy Horizon League tournament and become that fan base that make recruits want to come to Valpo. I know that I am dreaming here. However, we talk about being elite and wanting to move to the MVC, but we cannot fill our ARC 80% of the time!!
My concern with this Detroit deal is that I would prefer to rotate the location of the tournament in the future, and the HL has several options that could appeal in their region of interest:
Detroit- Joe Louis Arena/New Detroit Events Center
Indianapolis- Indiana Farmers Coliseum/Bankers Life Fieldhouse
Chicagoland- Allstate Arena/New DePaul Venue/Sears Center
Milwaukee- BMO Bradley Center
Columbus- Nationwide Arena
Cincinnati- Fifth-Third Arena
Cleveland- Quicken Loans Arena
And two just for fun:
Louisville- KFC Yum! Center
Pittsburgh- Consol Energy Center
Note: If it does stay in Detroit for a long time, they better trademark "Motor City Madness" and make that the Horizon League Tournament official nickname. That could compete with "Arch Madness." Also, I agree with other thoughts to make it a Thursday-Sunday tournament that keeps the double bye.
Final note: This move is to regain the prestige of the Horizon League not to attract new members. Since Butler's departure, the league's seeds in the NCAA tournament have declined and we need something that can spark talent and interest in the league. This does that somewhat. Remember the "Last Basketball Game at Joe Louis Arena" line from before. For those that believe that this could attract new members let me say this. The Horizon League was and is never going to get Murray State. Period. Murray State is tied to the Ohio Valley Conference due to football obligations. If Murray State leaves the OVC, they suddenly have no place for their football team. Pioneer League? Hahahahaha. But seriously. Their next move is the Missouri Valley (who has football) when/if they expand to 12 teams and that may be our chance to jump this "sinking Horizon League ship" for those that call it that. (But NDSU and SDSU have the MVC football ties already, so the HL may very well be our permanent home for a long, long time.) The Horizon League probably will consider IUPUI and IPFW one day in the future, but not now for sure. Robert Morris is not joining the Horizon League also due to football in the Northeast Conference. It will be difficult to get Belmont into the Horizon League. They are a great school but you now need a travel buddy and that only option would then be Lipscomb and suddenly the Horizon League stretches north-south from Green Bay to Nashville... yikes. That is a tough sell.
Anyway, thanks for reading! Sorry that it was a little long, but I think that it's a good argument. I'd love to hear what all of you think about this! Go Valpo! And I will see you all in Detroit in 2016! :)
Yes, Long but well articulated. It is what it is and we, despite our complaining, can't change it. Your analysis is very good and touches on some thoughts that haven't been expressed yet. Thanks.
Oh, and welcome to the board! :dance:
It has been a few days since the press release now, and other than the exact same generic announcement required by the Horizon League to be copied on each member's web site, there has been little public support expressed by conference schools, even those who voted in favor of the proposal. Of course, Kampe and McCallum have voiced approval of the tournament being held in their home town, but I have seen no comments by other coaches throughout the league. In addition, there has been an absence of enthusiastic support openly expressed by athletic directors or university presidents.
Does anybody doubt that if this plan were viewed positively and as a popular one, all the administrators at the conference schools would be rushing to the media to embrace the idea and share the credit? Instead, the sound of silence from those universities (as well as the admirable and not so subtle tone of dismay by Mark LaBarbera in his public comment) perhaps reveals how unpopular this decision stands, even among schools who voted for it and now must deal with unhappy players, coaches, students, fans, alumni, and financial supporters. Indeed, the overwhelming negative backlash from most Horizon League fans, as well as the apparently poor planning of the rollout by LeCrone and the Horizon League—whose silence in response to the tidal wave of negativity on conference discussion boards has been deafening—does not inspire confidence moving forward.
Pal, you've touched on the thing that bothers me the most: The lack of sound planning and consensus building BEFORE the move was made. Same with the NKU situation. At least when the MVC came to visit potential new members, it was done in a well-planned, series of steps that were pretty public. None of the HL steps appear to pass this little sniff test.
Well written post by HailVU2014. I don't disagree with anything he/she wrote, except the part about Murray State not being interested in the Horizon because of football. The OVC has non-football teams in it--Belmont and of course the Pioneer's Morehead State. YSU plays football in the Missouri Valley version of football, as do members of the Summit. In fact, five of ten football members are not part of the other Valley organization. Murray could play football in the Valley and everything else in the Horizon. The football and version and everything else versions of the Valley are on different wave lengths so the logic that if Murray was playing football there does not mean the basketball version would welcome them.
Also, NDSU and SDSU won't be invited to be all-sports schools in the MVC. While the travel is fine for football, the MVC schools would have no desire to trek each of their sports teams to those states every season.
Quote from: FWalum on May 09, 2015, 12:41:47 AM
What the heck is this Detroit News writer talking about....??? Moving Horizon League Tourney (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/07/jla-to-host-horizon-league-basketball-tournament/70957924/)
QuoteThe Detroit plan puts the whole tournament, including opening-round games, in the city, a single site, regardless if Oakland or Detroit happen to be eliminated before the championship game.
Therefore, this could give the tournament a bigger spotlight, in a bigger media market than, say, Valparaiso. That's welcomed news for ESPN, which retains the rights to broadcast the championship game — and figures to be much more likely to put the final on ESPN rather than ESPN2 if there's not a bunch of empty seats, like there often is when the game is held at a campus site.
Obviously didn't attend many Horizon League Championship games.
On this point, I'm with you. But then if I know my Detroit media, Tony Paul is generally considered to be an idiot.
And this paragraph was obviously written by an idiot.
Quote from: motowntitan on May 09, 2015, 10:00:26 AMHowever, we have sent 4 teams to the NCAA in the past four years, with almost the same embarrassing results. What experience is gained to better prepare you for the NCAA by playing on your home court?
Very good point. :thumbsup:
I understand HailVU, but building the HL comes at the opportunity cost of Valpo basketball. You even said it, we lose a huge recruiting advantage. We cannot host recruits in front of a packed crowd on ESPN. What about the Chicago kids we depend so much on? Do we lose them? Currently we tell them that there's a good chance your mum, pa, and grand dad can come watch you earn a ticket to the NCAA tournament just a hour drive from your home. Now they have to go to Detroit....Hope we don't lose our Chicago kids and recruiting advantage just so the HL can brand itself better.
http://m.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/motor-city-madness----a-coach-s-take/article_4abac516-f520-11e4-8be6-2fccd14f8c11.html?mobile_touch=true (http://m.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/motor-city-madness----a-coach-s-take/article_4abac516-f520-11e4-8be6-2fccd14f8c11.html?mobile_touch=true)
I am surprised this hasn't shown up here before, perhaps I missed it. The new tourney site gave Paul Oren the chance to interview his man crush Kampe about the plan. Apparently with a straight face he said the following:
On perceived home-court advantage for Detroit and Oakland -- "I don't see it as an advantage to Oakland or Detroit at all."
Well if he says so.......
It has been awhile since I've commented on anything here, but while Detroit doesn't sound appealing at all, I do like the neutral site location for the entire tournament. I like it for a major reason of you have all the games in one location, house all 10 teams, cheerleaders, bands, and fans in one hotel, and make a good event of fan fellowship at the arena and hotel, as fans from all schools can purchase all session passes for a weekend of basketball, instead of paying 4 individual price points for games. I know in the two years the Mid-Con was in Kansas City, the hotel was the host for all of the teams, cheerleaders, and bands, plus the fans stayed in the same hotel. The hotel made a great chunk of money at the bar too because fans stayed there to eat or drink with other fans. Having this tourrnament in Detroit will help their economy because fans will stay in the hotels, eat in some of their restaurants, purchase beer/alcohol at local grocery stores or liquor stores/gas stations. It also, as HailVU said, is logistically easier to work with because the HL doesn't have to move everything overnight from say Green Bay to Dayton for banners, people, technology, tv, ESPN because it's all in one location for a weekend. For those complaining about losing the Saturday game to Red Wings hockey, the tournament is planned early enough now to help Joe Louis Arena plan for hockey being on the road for a week, depending on what the tournament dates will be each year, giving time for setup of the basketball court and banners, games played, then time to tear down the banners and remove the court to setup the ice again. Too many of you forget that arenas host numerous events a year, not just basketball or hockey during the winter, so they know how to make the logistics for this work. They now have enough time to work with the Red Wings and the NHL for what dates the HL tournament will need Joe Louis Arena so the Red Wings are on the road at that point.
Reading most of this thread, I felt like Chicken Little was screaming the sky was falling...
Quote from: valporun on May 11, 2015, 04:47:40 PM
Having this tourrnament in Detroit will help their economy because fans will stay in the hotels, eat in some of their restaurants, purchase beer/alcohol at local grocery stores or liquor stores/gas stations.
I don't understand why this aspect is offered as a positive for Valpo fans to support. Why should we be concerned about helping the Detroit economy at the cost of losing possible income to businesses and members in the Valparaiso community, including some who I know also are season ticket holders or financial supporters of the university and athletics program? Valpo administrators will tell you the tournament at Valparaiso was one of those desired opportunities for university-community cooperation with benefits to both.
Now, if only Valpo had a 6-7,000 seat arena, the HL would have a complex of good sized arenas (OU and UDM would be required to rent such a facility, of course - YSU ? Ugh, not in the next decade) where the WHOLE HL tournament could be played at the home venue of the regular season winner. It would be a Thursday through Sunday affair with the double bye (?) retained (or maybe not). It would:
Reward the season champ,
Fill mid sized arenas and create quite an atmosphere
Congregate all teams at the same venue,
Bring a sizable cash influx to the local economy
Put great pressure on HL teams to upgrade their programs in pursuit of hosting the tournament
Allow a 'natural' rotation of venues to help all (eh, maybe some) programs and locations
I'm pretty much being a little facetious, but .... If only ::)
Here are two questions I would like to get everyone's feelings on.
1. If Mercy or Oakland try to play a regular season game at the Joe Louis Arena should the HL forbid them?
2. Would must of us be as upset about the neutral location if Chicago hosted?
3. If the 20K per team is supposed to help offset travel costs, should UDM and OU get a full share?
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 12, 2015, 11:11:42 AM
Here are two questions I would like to get everyone's feelings on.
1. If Mercy or Oakland try to play a regular season game at the Joe Louis Arena should the HL forbid them?
2. Would must of us be as upset about the neutral location if Chicago hosted?
1. If the HL wants to maintain the pretext of Joe Louis Arena being a neutral site, then they should not allow UDM or OU to use the arena as a home court during the regular season.
2. No, I would not be as upset, but only for purely selfish reasons. I would certainly understand if other schools or their fans complained that the site was not neutral. I would also prefer the current (I mean former) format over a Chicago tournament because of the great atmosphere that our tournament creates every year. I hope that I'm wrong, but I fear that the HL will never create that electricity at a neutral site, regardless of the location.
There may be one other question to ask: If the 20K per team is supposed to help offset travel costs, should UDM and OU get a full share?
OK let's compare access....
ARC TO JOE LOUIS (AMTRAK from Chicago $35, 3 trains per day~~ $34 from Michigan City, 2 trains/day)
via I-94 W
250 miles
3 h 34 min without traffic
ARC TO THE ARCH (Amtrak from Chicago $27... 6 trains per day)
via I-55 N
317 miles
4 h 38 min without traffic
Quote from: talksalot on May 12, 2015, 01:24:37 PM
OK let's compare access....
ARC TO JOE LOUIS (AMTRAK from Chicago $35, 3 trains per day~~ $34 from Michigan City, 2 trains/day)
via I-94 W
250 miles
3 h 34 min without traffic
ARC TO THE ARCH (Amtrak from Chicago $27... 6 trains per day)
via I-55 N
317 miles
4 h 38 min without traffic
Is your point that Amtrak needs to review their pricing? Seriously, the issue isn't location as much as it is whether or not it is truly a neutral site.
Quote from: talksalot on May 12, 2015, 01:24:37 PM
OK let's compare access....
ARC TO JOE LOUIS (AMTRAK from Chicago $35, 3 trains per day~~ $34 from Michigan City, 2 trains/day)
via I-94 W
250 miles
3 h 34 min without traffic
ARC TO THE ARCH (Amtrak from Chicago $27... 6 trains per day)
via I-55 N
317 miles
4 h 38 min without traffic
What does Amtrak have to do with anything? The team isn't going to use it, and 99% of the fans aren't going to use it either.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 12, 2015, 11:11:42 AM
Here are two questions I would like to get everyone's feelings on.
1. If Mercy or Oakland try to play a regular season game at the Joe Louis Arena should the HL forbid them? If a tree falls in a forest does anyone hear it? What you all have to realize is that NO ONE in the Detroit Metro area gives a rat's butt about Oakland nor UDM basketball. It's no big deal.
2. Would must of us be as upset about the neutral location if Chicago hosted?
3. If the 20K per team is supposed to help offset travel costs, should UDM and OU get a full share?
Quote from: valpospartan on May 12, 2015, 10:09:16 PMIf a tree falls in a forest does anyone hear it? What you all have to realize is that NO ONE in the Detroit Metro area gives a rat's butt about Oakland nor UDM basketball. It's no big deal.
That's fine, they don't care. However, does Oakland or Mercy (the teams, not city of Detroit) receive an advantage by playing an out of conference game there?
I also think they receive a financial advantage, $20,0000. OU can splurge a little on their international trip this summer. They also receive an advantage because it's in detroit. Not the fans but the players. My experience playing division I sports and then coaching at division I, is that home teams are at an advantage. No bus trip, no hotel.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 13, 2015, 09:27:05 AMNo bus trip, no hotel.
Would have to agree that No bus trip, No hotel = Advantage
I would be willing to bet that Oakland, being a 40-minute drive away, would stay in a hotel closer to JLA for the tournament.
Quote from: vusupporter on May 13, 2015, 12:52:37 PMI would be willing to bet that Oakland, being a 40-minute drive away, would stay in a hotel closer to JLA for the tournament.
I agree. It's what Butler did when they played in the Final Four in Indianapolis in 2010.
Last year I can think of two examples on this type of "neutral" site tourney. The OVC in Nashville and CUSA in Birmingham. in both cases, the local team (not the #1 seed) won.
Quote from: a3uge on May 12, 2015, 01:41:50 PMWhat does Amtrak have to do with anything? The team isn't going to use it, and 99% of the fans aren't going to use it either.
I guess for the first time in my life I'm in the "1%"... Love that amtrak route to Michigan...(and the one to St. Louis)... cheaper than driving, AND you can get up and get a beer... and it's fully WiFi... and it's a 4 mile cab ride down to Cobo...
This could be a real party train !
Quote from: talksalot on May 14, 2015, 04:45:16 PM
Quote from: a3uge on May 12, 2015, 01:41:50 PMWhat does Amtrak have to do with anything? The team isn't going to use it, and 99% of the fans aren't going to use it either.
I guess for the first time in my life I'm in the "1%"... Love that amtrak route to Michigan...(and the one to St. Louis)... cheaper than driving, AND you can get up and get a beer... and it's fully WiFi... and it's a 4 mile cab ride down to Cobo...
This could be a real party train !
The Wolverine Train arrives twice a day on Friday, March 4, 2016.
7:13 p.m. EST and
12:18 a.m. (just after midnight) EST at the downtown Detroit Amtrak Station. You can catch it in Michigan City or Whiting (Hammond).
http://tickets.amtrak.com/itd/amtrak (http://tickets.amtrak.com/itd/amtrak)
http://tinyurl.com/mk9cgxv (http://tinyurl.com/mk9cgxv) (Michigan City station)
http://tinyurl.com/kzm4c2w (http://tinyurl.com/kzm4c2w) (Detroit Amtrak station)
http://tinyurl.com/ojfr92e (http://tinyurl.com/ojfr92e) (Detroit Amtrak to Joe Louis Arena)
http://tinyurl.com/kxvttan (http://tinyurl.com/kxvttan) (Whiting/Hammond Amtrak station)
7:13 p.m. would be running it too close or too late but if you find a place to stay you can't beat the price of $34 each way.
Just a little caution. Nothing says "tourist" like getting off the train a little tipsy in downtown Detroit just after midnight. ::)
there is a 3rd Wolverine that stops in New Buffalo (not Michigan City)... 9:30am to 2:00pm into Detroit...it stops across the street from the Stray Dog... also very handy.
Quote from: talksalot on May 16, 2015, 11:08:16 AM
there is a 3rd Wolverine that stops in New Buffalo (not Michigan City)... 9:30am to 2:00pm into Detroit...it stops across the street from the Stray Dog... also very handy.
Ok, the 350 Wolverine stops in New Buffalo--9:37 a.m. EST and Detroit 2:04 p.m. EST (not Whiting or Mich City). There must be a fee to Amtrak that Indiana doesn't want to pay to make the extra stops on this earlier train. That's weird because the Mich City station and New Buffalo station are only 11 minutes apart by train and only 10 miles apart by car.
http://tinyurl.com/kx3wju6 (http://tinyurl.com/kx3wju6)
New Buffalo Amtrak Station--no building just a platform.
(turn the view around to see the Stray Dog--very quaint--it's the more whiteish building on the right past the colored B&B's)
http://tinyurl.com/ltj877j (http://tinyurl.com/ltj877j)
Michigan City Amtrak station--only a platform too--I thought there was a building in Mich City at one time. I could be mistaken.
Is that the infamous Indiana State Prison, including death row, just behind the railroad tracks? The one Dillinger escaped from?
Quote from: bbtds on May 16, 2015, 09:03:30 PMMichigan City Amtrak station--only a platform too--I thought there was a building in Mich City at one time. I could be mistaken.
Well at least your "station" is located in a city. Amtrak made a very "smart" move in 1990 to abandon rail service in Fort Wayne because of track maintenance and moved the line so that our closest stop is about 25-30 miles north in Waterloo, IN. Would love to see service restored from here to Chicago.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 11, 2015, 10:01:47 PM
Now, if only Valpo had a 6-7,000 seat arena, the HL would have a complex of good sized arenas (OU and UDM would be required to rent such a facility, of course - YSU ? Ugh, not in the next decade) where the WHOLE HL tournament could be played at the home venue of the regular season winner. It would be a Thursday through Sunday affair with the double bye (?) retained (or maybe not).
Why would Detroit have to rent a facility as small as 6-7,000 seats?
Quote from: motowntitan on May 17, 2015, 05:57:42 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 11, 2015, 10:01:47 PM
Now, if only Valpo had a 6-7,000 seat arena, the HL would have a complex of good sized arenas (OU and UDM would be required to rent such a facility, of course - YSU ? Ugh, not in the next decade) where the WHOLE HL tournament could be played at the home venue of the regular season winner. It would be a Thursday through Sunday affair with the double bye (?) retained (or maybe not).
Why would Detroit have to rent a facility as small as 6-7,000 seats?
My original response, Titian, was "to fill it and create a really insane atmosphere instead of having echos bouncing off 10K empty seats." However, your question prompted me to review the capacities of current (and new ) HL Teams:
CSU - 13,600
UWM -
12,700 10,783WSU - 10,449
UWGB - 10,000
NKU - 9,400
UDM - 8,295UIC - 8,000
YSU - 6,300
Valpo - 5,000
OU - 4,000
Clearly, it's Valpo, OU and YSU who need to up their capacity. I've been to Rensch and the Panther Arena and feel they would be great venues for a HL Tourney. Obviously anything in the 8K-10K range would play to packed houses. Larger arenas might not sell out, but who would notice? But 18K is a lot of seats to fill.
So I revise my "if only" for this make-believe scenario and say:
Now, if only Valpo had an 8,000 seat arena, the HL would have a complex of good sized arenas (OU would be required to rent such a facility, of course - YSU ? Ugh, not in the next decade) where the WHOLE HL tournament could be played at the home venue of the regular season winner.
Love the board and agree with the vast majority on here about the relocation of the H League tournament. The time has come for LeCrone to step aside, but first we need most of our university administrators to stop agreeing with him.
Anyway, the seating capacity for men's basketball games at UWM Panther Arena is 10,783 and we've averaged around 10,250 for five title games, so I would agree that the size of the facility is perfect for the tournament.
Thanks for letting me weigh in. Please continue.
Mark LaBarbera has posted an end-of-year "thank you" message to the residents of Valparaiso and Northwest Indiana. I like this note and applaud ML. I hope it sets a precedent for more frequent direct messages to the surrounding community on a regular basis to help engender support and increase the local fan base. Additionally, in light of the discussion on this thread, I found the following section of Mark's letter rather interesting, especially since I know a number of community members feel their long-time support has been ignored or betrayed by the Horizon League, and reassurance to them by Valpo is necessary. Mark's message indirectly further emphasizes part of the reasoning for Valpo's opposition to the league's decision to make Detroit a permanent location for the men's basketball tournament: "In the past year we have earned Horizon League championships in women's soccer and men's basketball. Both titles were won in tournaments contested right here in Valparaiso. Our student-athletes were greatly encouraged by the significant number of local fans who attended the events and cheered them to victory. During several live ESPN broadcasts we showed multiple national television audiences the quality and passion of basketball fans in Northwest Indiana."
http://www.valpoathletics.com/news/articles/2014-15/14706/athletics-director-thanks-northwest-indiana/#.VVpFvlVViko (http://www.valpoathletics.com/news/articles/2014-15/14706/athletics-director-thanks-northwest-indiana/#.VVpFvlVViko)
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 11, 2015, 10:05:32 AM
Kampe about the plan. Apparently with a straight face he said the following:
On perceived home-court advantage for Detroit and Oakland -- "I don't see it as an advantage to Oakland or Detroit at all."
Well if he says so.......
It has made me wonder about home court advantage. How much of it is sleeping in your own bed, and not being cooped up on a bus or plane, as some here have suggested? How much is it being close to your normal routine, eating the usual food, etc.? How much of it is shooting at familiar rims, in a familiar environment, etc? How much of it is being in your "home game" routine, where you are half of the time? How much of it is having a large group of friendly fans?
Some of those would be present for Oakland or Detroit in the "neutral" tournament environment, others would not.
I really don't know what the mix is. If memory serves, the home court advantage in basketball is statistically significant, and not small. But, I don't know if the make up is well understood. Statistically, or even anecdotally.
Quote from: agibson on May 26, 2015, 12:25:31 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 11, 2015, 10:05:32 AM
Kampe about the plan. Apparently with a straight face he said the following:
On perceived home-court advantage for Detroit and Oakland -- "I don't see it as an advantage to Oakland or Detroit at all."
Well if he says so.......
It has made me wonder about home court advantage. How much of it is sleeping in your own bed, and not being cooped up on a bus or plane, as some here have suggested? How much is it being close to your normal routine, eating the usual food, etc.? How much of it is shooting at familiar rims, in a familiar environment, etc? How much of it is being in your "home game" routine, where you are half of the time? How much of it is having a large group of friendly fans?
Some of those would be present for Oakland or Detroit in the "neutral" tournament environment, others would not.
I really don't know what the mix is. If memory serves, the home court advantage in basketball is statistically significant, and not small. But, I don't know if the make up is well understood. Statistically, or even anecdotally.
Quote from: agibson on May 26, 2015, 12:25:31 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 11, 2015, 10:05:32 AM
Kampe about the plan. Apparently with a straight face he said the following:
On perceived home-court advantage for Detroit and Oakland -- "I don't see it as an advantage to Oakland or Detroit at all."
Well if he says so.......
It has made me wonder about home court advantage. How much of it is sleeping in your own bed, and not being cooped up on a bus or plane, as some here have suggested? How much is it being close to your normal routine, eating the usual food, etc.? How much of it is shooting at familiar rims, in a familiar environment, etc? How much of it is being in your "home game" routine, where you are half of the time? How much of it is having a large group of friendly fans?
Some of those would be present for Oakland or Detroit in the "neutral" tournament environment, others would not.
I really don't know what the mix is. If memory serves, the home court advantage in basketball is statistically significant, and not small. But, I don't know if the make up is well understood. Statistically, or even anecdotally.
I just took a look back at the history of The Summit/Mid-Con tourney, always played at a neutral site, some more "neutral" then others.
We won the tourney title in 1994, 95,96,97,98,99, and 2000. The 1994 game was played at Valpo but the 95-99 games were played at The Mark of the Quad Cities. In 2000 it switched to Allen County Memorial in Fort Wayne. We won the 2000 tourney then lost to S. Utah in 2001 but won again in 2002. We lost to IUPUI in 2003 but won again in 2004.
So our record on neutral sites is 9-2. Our record in the Horizon while hosting is 2-1. A similar "home court" advantage, to Detroit and Oakland, was when ORU had the tournament at a nearby "neutral court". They won 3 straight from 2006-2008.
vu72, don't forget the tournament switched to a somewhat neutral site in 2003, from Fort Wayne to Kansas City. We won in 2003 over IUPUI at Kemper Arena, then lost to the Jags in 2004 in KC, so the neutral floor thing didn't work out for UMKC, did it?
I probably missed it somewhere in the thread, but will the tournament championship game be played on the weekend, on Tuesday (as in the past) to accommodate ESPN, or has it yet been determined?
Quote from: wh on May 28, 2015, 01:44:18 PM
I probably missed it somewhere in the thread, but will the tournament championship game be played on the weekend, on Tuesday (as in the past) to accommodate ESPN, or has it yet been determined?
From the HL press release:
"The 2016 Horizon League men's basketball championship game will keep its current Tuesday, March 8, slot on ESPN or ESPN2 at 7 p.m. ET. Additional game dates, times, network information, and tournament format will be announced at a later date."
http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/olympia-entertainment-horizon-league-reach-agreement-on-mens-basketball-championship (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/olympia-entertainment-horizon-league-reach-agreement-on-mens-basketball-championship)
Quote from: valporun on May 27, 2015, 12:10:54 PM
vu72, don't forget the tournament switched to a somewhat neutral site in 2003, from Fort Wayne to Kansas City. We won in 2003 over IUPUI at Kemper Arena, then lost to the Jags in 2004 in KC, so the neutral floor thing didn't work out for UMKC, did it?
I think that you have these backwards. We lost to IUPUI in 2003 and went to the NIT (losing to Iowa), and then won in 2004 to go to the NCAA tourney (against Gonzaga)
So we're moving this thing to Detroit. The most dangerous urban center in the United States. Named the 8th most dangerous vacation destination in the world by 1 publication (Afghanistan is No.1, Iraq No.4 for point of reference). Got it.
And it's not a weekend final, but a Tuesday night final. A Tuesday night on a neutral court in a far away place in the 8th most dangerous vacation destination in the world in front of a national television audience. Got it.
IMO time will show that this Detroit thing will become the worst decision the HL has ever made. If Valpo is fortunate enough to be in the final, does anyone actually believe that fans of the program other than diehards like us are going to take off work on Monday and Tuesday and drive up there in mass for this thing? How about all the families that brought their kids to this year's championship game at the ARC? Are they going to take their kids out of school to be a part of this Tuesday night extravaganza in downtown Detroit? Despite spring break, the student section was overflowing at this year's championship game. Anyone want to venture a guess as to how many will show up in Detroit on a Tuesday night on spring break week? 5? 10?
This is such an obviously bad idea that it's hard to imagine that it was seriously entertained - and yet it was. Even more incredible, LeCrone sold it to 7 presumably highly intelligent, visionary university leaders. These people put their reputations on the line for a huge roll of the dice that could make the HL the laughing stock of college basketball if anyone other than Detroit or Oakland participates in the championship game. Unbelievable.
Last, but not least, I am familiar with downtown Detroit. As we get closer to the "big event," I'll revisit this topic and spell out the multiple risks that out-of-towners unfamiliar with Detroit face in attending a publicized public event in downtown Detroit after dark. For now I will simply frame it this way. The lions will be on the prowl that Tuesday night, waiting in the tall grass to pounce on any unsuspecting wildebeests that get separated from the herd.
http://travel.amerikanki.com/worlds-most-dangerous-vacation-destinations/8/ (http://travel.amerikanki.com/worlds-most-dangerous-vacation-destinations/8/)
Maybe the HL can come up with a catchy name for the Tourney, like "The shootout in Detroit"
You're right, valpotx, I did have things backwards.
Some positive news about Detroit:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jpmorganchase/2015/05/18/what-the-motor-citys-turnaround-means-for-cities/?sr_source=lift_amplify&nowelcome (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jpmorganchase/2015/05/18/what-the-motor-citys-turnaround-means-for-cities/?sr_source=lift_amplify&nowelcome)
WOW! I can't wait to go to Detroit for the tourney!
Quote from: valpo64 on June 27, 2015, 08:29:40 AM
WOW! I can't wait to go to Detroit for the tourney!
Give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about going to Detroit:
http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/12691/disheartening_number_of_cops_patrolling_detroit_is_the_lowest_since_the_1920s#.VZ-pEWfbKpo (http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/12691/disheartening_number_of_cops_patrolling_detroit_is_the_lowest_since_the_1920s#.VZ-pEWfbKpo)
Meanwhile, there is now a report of the bracket for next year's conference tourney:
http://www.bloggingthebracket.com/2015/7/15/8975501/2016-conference-tournaments-brackets-schedule-tv-scores-college-basketball#HL (http://www.bloggingthebracket.com/2015/7/15/8975501/2016-conference-tournaments-brackets-schedule-tv-scores-college-basketball#HL)
The double-byes are gone too.
I have mixed feelings about this (I may have said this before). One thing's for sure, winning the conference tourney gets you a game against the play-in winner and nothing more. I like it and I hate it. As Two-Face would say, "We are of two minds on the subject."
Then again, I have no idea if this is correct as we've heard nothing from the HL office.
Update: blogger admits he was just guessing. Never mind...
I believe that NKU is immediately eligible for the NCAA tournament as well. This individual mentions that they are 1 year away from being eligible. Getting rid of the double-bye is moronic. We won't be turning out multiple bids anytime soon, and you want your top 2 seeds protected in that case...
Here are some Lutherans that aren't wussies:
http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit (http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit)
Seen many of them walking around the downtown area this week.
Quote from: valpotx on July 16, 2015, 01:17:13 PM
I believe that NKU is immediately eligible for the NCAA tournament as well. This individual mentions that they are 1 year away from being eligible. Getting rid of the double-bye is moronic. We won't be turning out multiple bids anytime soon, and you want your top 2 seeds protected in that case...
I want my top 2 seeds to stand on their own two feet instead of being "helped". But .... YMMV
Quote from: valpotx on July 16, 2015, 01:17:13 PM
I believe that NKU is immediately eligible for the NCAA tournament as well. This individual mentions that they are 1 year away from being eligible.
You may be right about that. To tell the truth, I feel like I can remember both answers being given on this question.
Quote from: motowntitan on July 16, 2015, 06:29:03 PM
Here are some Lutherans that aren't wussies:
http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit (http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit)
Seen many of them walking around the downtown area this week.
Glad you noticed over 30000 kids as well as adults keeping them company. My congregation has about 20 people there from here in the Dallas area. Early reports are that they are having a great time! Thanks for being a good host!
I don't even think NKU even knows if they're eligible or not.
Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk
Quote from: a3uge on July 16, 2015, 09:41:30 PM
I don't even think NKU even knows if they're eligible or not.
Well, the NCAA and Atlantic Sun knew exactly when the Norse become full Division 1 members:
http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2011-12-08/northern-kentucky-moves-di (http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2011-12-08/northern-kentucky-moves-di)
This website clearly states that NKU will become eligible for the postseason in 2016-17.
The Norse cross country, golf and track & field programs will compete in next season's conference championships with the remaining sports gaining postseason eligibility in 2016-17 at the conclusion of the four-year transitional process.http://www.naplesnews.com/sports/college/fgcu/northern-kentucky-abruptly-leaves-atlantic-sun-for-horizon_29543137 (http://www.naplesnews.com/sports/college/fgcu/northern-kentucky-abruptly-leaves-atlantic-sun-for-horizon_29543137)
Kavanagh and company understand the geographical reasons for NKU's move to the Horizon — seven teams within 300 miles, and an estimated annual travel savings of $255,000. That's one of the main factors in all of the recent conference shufflings.
But they don't appreciate the manner in which the Norse, who will not be eligible for NCAA tournaments or meets until 2016-17, are quickly doing it.
Quote from: motowntitan on July 16, 2015, 06:29:03 PM
Here are some Lutherans that aren't wussies:
http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit (http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit)
Seen many of them walking around the downtown area this week.
My wife is coming back today, with a dozen of our youth and a few other adults. Sounds like it was a great trip!
Quote from: agibson on July 19, 2015, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on July 16, 2015, 06:29:03 PM
Here are some Lutherans that aren't wussies:
http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit (http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit)
Seen many of them walking around the downtown area this week.
My wife is coming back today, with a dozen of our youth and a few other adults. Sounds like it was a great trip!
Reports from our Pastor and youth say that they had a great trip and very pleased with downtown Detroit. They got to see the troubled parts of Detroit as well and did hours and hours of work serving folks in the poorer parts of town. No doubt a life changing experience.
On another Detroit moment:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/07/19/cars-catch-fire-in-lot-outside-tigers-orioles-game-at-comerica-park/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/07/19/cars-catch-fire-in-lot-outside-tigers-orioles-game-at-comerica-park/)
I hope the fires were not intentionally set, but the response time for the fire department to show up must have been slow for that many cars to have burned. Hopefully, the HL MBB tournament won't need any emergency services.
Avg. 9-1-1 response time in Detroit is 30 min., highest in the nation. Visiting Detroit is liking vacationing in a third world country. Everything seems fine - unless you need law enforcement or an EMT.
Hey guys,
I didn't realize the Lutheran Youth group was here to work, I just thought it was a big meeting.
Can't give enough credit to the amazing work they did.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2015/07/16/lutheran-youth-convention-helps-detroit/30251837/ (http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2015/07/16/lutheran-youth-convention-helps-detroit/30251837/)
:clap:
:thewave:
"The Lutheran Church wants to be in places where they can speak about and learn about justice, and what it means to be God's people in relationship to justice and love," Bode said. "The gathering is amazing, a way to worship together, to have fun, and experience Detroit ...We're also doing lessons about racism and classism and sexism, and how our values as Christians push against that to seek justice."
Socialist/Marxist indoctrination at its finest. The ELCA should be required to provide a "social justice" hidden agenda warning for unsuspecting parents. What's next - gay, lesbian and transgender ministers? Oh I forgot, they already have those.
Quote from: wh on July 23, 2015, 05:01:34 AM
"The Lutheran Church wants to be in places where they can speak about and learn about justice, and what it means to be God's people in relationship to justice and love," Bode said. "The gathering is amazing, a way to worship together, to have fun, and experience Detroit ...We're also doing lessons about racism and classism and sexism, and how our values as Christians push against that to seek justice."
Socialist/Marxist indoctrination at its finest. The ELCA should be required to provide a "social justice" hidden agenda warning for unsuspecting parents. What's next - gay, lesbian and transgender ministers? Oh I forgot, they already have those.
I see your point. How in the world are Christians trying to stand up against racism, sexism and classism and then, even trying to seek justice!! I can't imagine Jesus being happy about all this! Oh wait...I was just going to quote scripture but I certainly wouldn't want to offend the capitalists on the board.
Quote from: vu72 on July 23, 2015, 07:25:35 AM
Quote from: wh on July 23, 2015, 05:01:34 AM
"The Lutheran Church wants to be in places where they can speak about and learn about justice, and what it means to be God's people in relationship to justice and love," Bode said. "The gathering is amazing, a way to worship together, to have fun, and experience Detroit ...We're also doing lessons about racism and classism and sexism, and how our values as Christians push against that to seek justice."
Socialist/Marxist indoctrination at its finest. The ELCA should be required to provide a "social justice" hidden agenda warning for unsuspecting parents. What's next - gay, lesbian and transgender ministers? Oh I forgot, they already have those.
I see your point. How in the world are Christians trying to stand up against racism, sexism and classism and then, even trying to seek justice!! I can't imagine Jesus being happy about all this! Oh wait...I was just going to quote scripture but I certainly wouldn't want to offend the capitalists on the board.
Not too sure what Capitalism has to do with anything here. There's certainly a difference between being generous with your own money vs being generous with other people's money.
Quote from: wh on July 23, 2015, 05:01:34 AM"The Lutheran Church wants to be in places where they can speak about and learn about justice, and what it means to be God's people in relationship to justice and love," Bode said. "The gathering is amazing, a way to worship together, to have fun, and experience Detroit ...We're also doing lessons about racism and classism and sexism, and how our values as Christians push against that to seek justice."
Socialist/Marxist indoctrination at its finest.
???
It's not that it's impossible, but you're really going to have to whiteboard this one for me, wh.
10 U.S. Cities That Should Be Avoided Like the Plague
http://thingsrated.com/2015/05/15/discover-the-top-10-cities-in-the-u-s-to-avoid-like-the-plague/3/ (http://thingsrated.com/2015/05/15/discover-the-top-10-cities-in-the-u-s-to-avoid-like-the-plague/3/)
8. Detroit, Michigan
Once the car capital of the United States, Detroit, Michigan is nothing but a hub for poverty and unemployment. Between 2000 and 2010, the city saw a 25 percent drop in population, with people living there moving to the suburbs. Why on Earth would anyone want to visit a place that the people who once resided there fled?[/b]
Easy to see that Detroit is in the top (bottom?) 10 of cities to be avoided. But it's interesting which cities were considered worse: #5 - Chicago (murder rate capitol of the country), #4 - Oakland (the next Detroit) , #3 - Memphis (rampant violence; 911 used to ambush cops), #2 - Atlanta and #1 Houston. #10, BTW, is St. Louis where the MVC has their tournament and #9 is Cleveland.
Quote from: vu72 on July 19, 2015, 07:52:39 PM
Quote from: agibson on July 19, 2015, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on July 16, 2015, 06:29:03 PM
Here are some Lutherans that aren't wussies:
http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit (http://www.elca.org/YouthGathering/WhyDetroit)
Seen many of them walking around the downtown area this week.
My wife is coming back today, with a dozen of our youth and a few other adults. Sounds like it was a great trip!
Reports from our Pastor and youth say that they had a great trip and very pleased with downtown Detroit. They got to see the troubled parts of Detroit as well and did hours and hours of work serving folks in the poorer parts of town. No doubt a life changing experience.
Had the same report from our church last Sunday - the kids seemed to enjoy downtown Detroit.
Downtown Detroit is safe. Downtown Chicago is safe. Downtown Indianapolis, Cleveland, St Louis, Milwaukee, etc are all safe. There's troubled areas of any large city, and as much as I don't like the Horizon League's decision, you're going to be safe if you visit downtown Detroit this March.
Quote from: wh on August 12, 2015, 03:32:05 PM
10 U.S. Cities That Should Be Avoided Like the Plague
http://thingsrated.com/2015/05/15/discover-the-top-10-cities-in-the-u-s-to-avoid-like-the-plague/3/ (http://thingsrated.com/2015/05/15/discover-the-top-10-cities-in-the-u-s-to-avoid-like-the-plague/3/)
8. Detroit, Michigan
Once the car capital of the United States, Detroit, Michigan is nothing but a hub for poverty and unemployment. Between 2000 and 2010, the city saw a 25 percent drop in population, with people living there moving to the suburbs. Why on Earth would anyone want to visit a place that the people who once resided there fled?[/b]
Fair question--sort of. As 62 pointed out, cities like Chicago :o and Memphis :o rank lower. Here's the point: Do you really think Chicago would give us the time of day if we wanted to move our tournament to their fair city? If so, would they hold the tourney on the near west side?
Detroit will be bending over backwards to improve their cities image. We won't be in any danger in this part of town. I am actually thinking of making the trip from Dallas. Detroit will be putting on the dog!
Packing heat encouraged by Detroit police chief:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/21/packing-heat-in-detroit-motown-residents-answer-police-chief-call-to-arms/# (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/21/packing-heat-in-detroit-motown-residents-answer-police-chief-call-to-arms/#)
Quote from: vu72 on August 12, 2015, 09:23:18 PM
Fair question--sort of. As 62 pointed out, cities like Chicago :o and Memphis :o rank lower. Here's the point: Do you really think Chicago would give us the time of day if we wanted to move our tournament to their fair city? If so, would they hold the tourney on the near west side?
Detroit will be bending over backwards to improve their cities image. We won't be in any danger in this part of town. I am actually thinking of making the trip from Dallas. Detroit will be putting on the dog!
Correct. If you do plan on coming, I would recommend just staying at the Greektown Casino. You can park for free the whole time and take the people mover to and from The Joe.
I will be on closer to tourney time to provide other suggestions.
Quote from: wh on August 21, 2015, 06:32:35 PM
Packing heat encouraged by Detroit police chief:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/21/packing-heat-in-detroit-motown-residents-answer-police-chief-call-to-arms/# (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/21/packing-heat-in-detroit-motown-residents-answer-police-chief-call-to-arms/#)
Quote
Eligible citizens can meet the state's training requirement in eight hours
8 hours to essentially play the role of a policeman? That sounds woefully inadequate to me.
Maybe this was kicked around elsewhere. But, the final schedule seems to be:
1st Round Saturday
2nd Round Sunday
3rd Round, Semi-Final, Monday
4th Round, Final, Tuesday
Do we expect the first round to be play-in games again, with some teams given byes through to the Semi-Final?
I didn't expect the Monday games! I think I'd have preferred a format like:
1st round Friday
2nd round Saturday
3rd round Sunday
4th round Tuesday (only because I knew that was contractually obliged)
I suppose that for me, personally, it'll depend on the details of seeding and scheduling. What time our game Sunday will be, if any. Whether I'm willing to go by myself without the family, etc.
If it's still a double bye format (which dear lord it BETTER be), the 3-9 seeds would have to win 4 games in 4 days to win the championship. I think that helps out the 1 and 2 seeds quite a bit.
The Monday game makes sense if it's in the same location. No reason to force people to buy an extra couple nights of a hotel room for 0 games. The obvious downside is that it's still Detroit and the semi and final games are on weekdays. I'd have to take 3 days off work if I wanted to see the 2 games.
Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk
Let's re-emphasize this.
Downtown Detroit is safe. Downtown Chicago is safe. Downtown Indianapolis, Cleveland, St Louis, Milwaukee, etc are all safe. There's troubled areas of any large city, and as much as I don't like the Horizon League's decision, you're going to be safe if you visit downtown Detroit this March.
Quote from: historyman on September 29, 2015, 09:34:40 AMLet's re-emphasize this.
Downtown Detroit is safe.
Responding to the discussion a month+ ago, I guess?
But, probably important to emphasize. And consistent with everything I heard from the ELCA youth gathering this summer.
Maybe I can use this as an excuse to go, even if my family can't make it. My wife might buy, "I need to redeem Detroit in the minds of Valparaiso basketball fans!".
Quote from: agibson on September 29, 2015, 11:47:15 AMQuote from: historyman on September 29, 2015, 09:34:40 AMLet's re-emphasize this. Downtown Detroit is safe.
Responding to the discussion a month+ ago, I guess? But, probably important to emphasize. And consistent with everything I heard from the ELCA youth gathering this summer. Maybe I can use this as an excuse to go, even if my family can't make it. My wife might buy, "I need to redeem Detroit in the minds of Valparaiso basketball fans!".
I'll be going and enjoying the tournament while many will be sitting at home wishing they were there. It's a great chance to finally meet many of the fans of the other teams who after 8 years (9 years by the end of the season) we really don't know as well as some from ORU, UMKC, IUPUI, etc. It's the tourney the ex-Summit/Mid-Con Valpo fans have always wanted.
Quote from: historyman on September 29, 2015, 04:19:23 PMI'll be going and enjoying the tournament while many will be sitting at home wishing they were there. It's a great chance to finally meet many of the fans of the other teams who after 8 years (9 years by the end of the season) we really don't know as well as some from ORU, UMKC, IUPUI, etc. It's the tourney the ex-Summit/Mid-Con Valpo fans have always wanted.
I would hope after eight years I've thoroughly annoyed you guys.
Quote from: historyman on September 29, 2015, 04:19:23 PMI'll be going and enjoying the tournament while many will be sitting at home wishing they were there. It's a great chance to finally meet many of the fans of the other teams who after 8 years (9 years by the end of the season) we really don't know as well as some from ORU, UMKC, IUPUI, etc. It's the tourney the ex-Summit/Mid-Con Valpo fans have always wanted.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Definitely looking forward to it. Might even start shopping for a hotel soon.
Agree..one of the best things about traveling to the Quad Cities and Tulsa was the opportunity to meet the fans from the other teams and the commaraderie that occured among the Valpo traveling fans. I already have booked my hotel and planned my PTO
http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/hl-ready-for-motor-city-madness (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/hl-ready-for-motor-city-madness)
My favorite part is where Kampe continues to insist that this is a neutral site....
Quote from: IndyValpo on October 16, 2015, 02:38:42 PM
http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/hl-ready-for-motor-city-madness (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/hl-ready-for-motor-city-madness)
My favorite part is where Kampe mcontinues to insist that this is a neutral site....
There is a rumor that Kampe learned the art of self promotion from Donald Trump. Oakland is going to have a "UGE" season. :)
Quote from: IndyValpo on October 16, 2015, 02:38:42 PM
http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/hl-ready-for-motor-city-madness (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/hl-ready-for-motor-city-madness)
My favorite part is where Kampe continues to insist that this is a neutral site....
Quote
Olympia has set an attendance goal of 35,000 for the four days, and 8.500 for the championship game. An ambitious and high bar.
Quote
"Not lost on us is we now have two member schools there,'' LeCrone said of Detroit and Oakland. ``Would we do this if we didn't have two member schools there? I don't know, maybe not."
35,000 is a pretty lofty goal...
...I wonder how much the Horizon League is paying Olympia to be putting this thing together.
It's been a few years since a Horizon League team has won a game in the tournament. They won a game in the NCAA tournament ($$$$ for the league) every year between 2005 and 2011. I wonder how the league coffers are doing, and if they WANT this to succeed or NEED this to succeed?
I like the fact that the fans already know where the tournament will be hosted for the next 5 years and can plan accordingly. I like that the tournament will be played in a same type of arena that the NCAA tournament games are played in (should take less time getting used to an arena = greater chance of coming out strong = greater chance of winning)
However, if Valpo, for example and I'm not saying this will happen, wins the league by 5+ games, we are feeling there's a pretty good chance of winning the conference tournament and that we're going dancing. How many Valpo fans will take the time off work and spend the money to go Detroit when there's a good to great chance that Valpo will be playing in the NCAA the week after? Especially if Chicago/Indy is hosting opening site games that year? Or on the flip side, how many fans would go if some other team dominated the league?
Great concept in theory and I applaud the Horizon League for trying this, just curious to see how it actually plays out. 35,000 is a lot of people....
There were a lot of school age kids (including 3 of my grandsons) at last season's championship game at the ARC. I know for a fact that my 2 daughters would not let my grandsons attend a game 5 hours away on a week night with school in session. That also means that my daughters and hubs won't be there either.
Quote from: agibson on October 16, 2015, 04:59:44 PMQuote (selected)Olympia has set an attendance goal of 35,000 for the four days, and 8.500 for the championship game. An ambitious and high bar.Quote
The only way the championship game has 8500 people attend is if the game has Oakland and Detroit, and the highest ticket price is $8. Even then, they might have to give away 2500 tickets to get to that number.
Very ambitious.
I am a former Detroiter that still has some ties there. I would be shocked if anywhere near the projected attendance is achieved - even with a UDM vs. Oakland final. Other than students and alums, I don't see much support for either of these two teams, let alone the rest of the league.
Quote from: wh on October 16, 2015, 06:50:08 PM
There were a lot of school age kids (including 3 of my grandsons) at last season's championship game at the ARC. I know for a fact that my 2 daughters would not let my grandsons attend a game 5 hours away on a week night with school in session. That also means that my daughters and hubs won't be there either.
Then maybe we should be looking at our views of the other parts of the US and the world and not being Americans that hide in their cocoons with our weapons hoping the rest of the world won't bother us.
Quote from: bbtds on October 18, 2015, 12:58:36 PM
Quote from: wh on October 16, 2015, 06:50:08 PM
There were a lot of school age kids (including 3 of my grandsons) at last season's championship game at the ARC. I know for a fact that my 2 daughters would not let my grandsons attend a game 5 hours away on a week night with school in session. That also means that my daughters and hubs won't be there either.
Then maybe we should be looking at our views of the other parts of the US and the world and not being Americans that hide in their cocoons with our weapons hoping the rest of the world won't bother us.
It appears you misunderstood my point. My daughters would be resistant to taking my grandchildren ANYWHERE 5 hours away on a school night. To make something like that work, they would have to take them out of school early on the day of the game. They would probably miss the next day as well, unless they went on 2 or 3 hours sleep. That's just not something most responsible parents would do over a mid major college basketball game - even an important one.
Quote from: valpospartan on October 16, 2015, 10:48:03 PM
I am a former Detroiter that still has some ties there. I would be shocked if anywhere near the projected attendance is achieved - even with a UDM vs. Oakland final. Other than students and alums, I don't see much support for either of these two teams, let alone the rest of the league.
I don't know. What kind of alumni base does each school have, and in the area? We don't average much different in attendance from either of the Detroit metro schools, and whenever we host the conference tournament, we always get 8k+ for the semifinal and sell out the final.
I'm really hoping we can beat you guys for the regular season so we can host... damn it.
The opening Games will be on Saturday and Sunday Area around the arena is pretty safe (as a business traveler, it a frequent destination). There will be plenty security, there are some great restuarants and decent hotels as well as pretty convenient people mover system. The only downfall I see is the champion ship game will be on Tuesday evening which will likely impact attendance.
Quote from: frontrowfan on October 19, 2015, 11:47:16 AM
The opening Games will be on Saturday and Sunday Area around the arena is pretty safe (as a business traveler, it a frequent destination). There will be plenty security, there are some great restuarants and decent hotels as well as pretty convenient people mover system. The only downfall I see is the champion ship game will be on Tuesday evening which will likely impact attendance.
The downfall I see is only two schools less than a two and a half hour drive of the arena.
More info from Detroit posters about ticket pricing, hotels discounting rates, etc.
http://www.detroittitanhoops.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2443 (http://www.detroittitanhoops.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2443)
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 11, 2015, 10:05:32 AM
http://m.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/motor-city-madness----a-coach-s-take/article_4abac516-f520-11e4-8be6-2fccd14f8c11.html?mobile_touch=true (http://m.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/motor-city-madness----a-coach-s-take/article_4abac516-f520-11e4-8be6-2fccd14f8c11.html?mobile_touch=true)
I am surprised this hasn't shown up here before, perhaps I missed it. The new tourney site gave Paul Oren the chance to interview his man crush Kampe about the plan. Apparently with a straight face he said the following:
On perceived home-court advantage for Detroit and Oakland -- "I don't see it as an advantage to Oakland or Detroit at all."
Well if he says so.......
Seems like these comments have been replaced by the truth...what a tool!
Since I can't listen to the WJR interview (don't see any podcasts archived at the website), I'm taking everyone's word for it.
I won't defend the "Who ya crappin'" moment from the coach.
Then again, I don't really care since I'm a single site kind of guy and I don't really care where it is.
Reading Paul's blog, here's the meaning I take from Kampe: Valpo travels well, so their fanbase has a good opportunity to negate any advantage Oakland or Detroit has. That being said, we're going to try to bring more fans than they do, and if we succeed, that's their problem. Plus, I didn't know how good we were going to be back then.
Folks, Kampe's a typical coach in many ways. I never said he was a saint or anything. I bet if we dug hard enough we could find an instance or two of verbal hypocrisy from Bryce over the past 5 years.
I would point out that if Oakland somehow fails to get one of the top two seeds, they have to play 4 games. If we get one of the top two seeds, we only have to play 2.
Quote from: StlVUFan on December 27, 2015, 07:46:48 PMSince I can't listen to the WJR interview (don't see any podcasts archived at the website), I'm taking everyone's word for it. I won't defend the "Who ya crappin'" moment from the coach. Then again, I don't really care since I'm a single site kind of guy and I don't really care where it is. Reading Paul's blog, here's the meaning I take from Kampe: Valpo travels well, so their fanbase has a good opportunity to negate any advantage Oakland or Detroit has. That being said, we're going to try to bring more fans than they do, and if we succeed, that's their problem. Plus, I didn't know how good we were going to be back then. Folks, Kampe's a typical coach in many ways. I never said he was a saint or anything. I bet if we dug hard enough we could find an instance or two of verbal hypocrisy from Bryce over the past 5 years. I would point out that if Oakland somehow fails to get one of the top two seeds, they have to play 4 games. If we get one of the top two seeds, we only have to play 2.
Forget about the crowd and who travels well. Oakland players get to sleep in their own beds etc. Staying in hotels and eating out is a disadvantage.
Wouldn't OU and UDM sequester their players in nearby hotels? There's a lot at stake to not exert some control for those few days.
Quote from: IndyValpo on December 27, 2015, 01:21:28 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 11, 2015, 10:05:32 AM
http://m.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/motor-city-madness----a-coach-s-take/article_4abac516-f520-11e4-8be6-2fccd14f8c11.html?mobile_touch=true (http://m.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/motor-city-madness----a-coach-s-take/article_4abac516-f520-11e4-8be6-2fccd14f8c11.html?mobile_touch=true)
I am surprised this hasn't shown up here before, perhaps I missed it. The new tourney site gave Paul Oren the chance to interview his man crush Kampe about the plan. Apparently with a straight face he said the following:
On perceived home-court advantage for Detroit and Oakland -- "I don't see it as an advantage to Oakland or Detroit at all."
Well if he says so.......
Seems like these comments have been replaced by the truth...what a tool!
This is a VERY good catch.
64 is full of crap. I heard the same interview. I challenge anyone on this board to listen to it and tell me 64 is not telling a lie. Kampe still says it's not an advantage. All he does is promote the event. He wasn't even asked if it is an advantage. Message boards might be one of the few places some wack job with an agenda can make a false statement and you so called educated people pile right on. I guess time will tell if it is or not, but give me a break.
Quote from: Grizz on December 28, 2015, 11:25:32 AMMessage boards might be one of the few places some wack job with an agenda can make a false statement and you so called educated people pile right on.
It is one of the traditional uses of the internet...
On fan messages boards you just might find someone with the right combination of interest and spare time to do some fact checking. But, it sounds like archived shows aren't available?
Quote from: Grizz on December 28, 2015, 11:25:32 AM
64 is full of crap. I heard the same interview. I challenge anyone on this board to listen to it and tell me 64 is not telling a lie. Kampe still says it's not an advantage. All he does is promote the event. He wasn't even asked if it is an advantage. Message boards might be one of the few places some wack job with an agenda can make a false statement and you so called educated people pile right on. I guess time will tell if it is or not, but give me a break.
Do you know if a podcast is available? Can you post a link? You got me interested now to listen to it. I would love nothing better than to undo my conceding of the point.
https://audioboom.com/boos/3985652-greg-kampe-oakland-university-basketball-coach-december-22-2015
Here is a link to interview. At around 6 mins he mentions Valpo and at 8 the tournament
If you don't think Kampe is using the tournament location as a recruiting tool, either you're an idiot, or Kampe is.
Quote from: Grizz on December 30, 2015, 11:23:40 AM
https://audioboom.com/boos/3985652-greg-kampe-oakland-university-basketball-coach-december-22-2015
Here is a link to interview. At around 6 mins he mentions Valpo and at 8 the tournament
The interview is only 7:55 long, lol
Quote from: Grizz on December 30, 2015, 11:23:40 AM
https://audioboom.com/boos/3985652-greg-kampe-oakland-university-basketball-coach-december-22-2015
Here is a link to interview. At around 6 mins he mentions Valpo and at 8 the tournament
There is no mention of Valpo or the HL tournament in this audio. I just lost 8 minutes of my life that I'll never get back listening to some other team's coach talk about an upcoming OOC game.
Quote from: Grizz on December 30, 2015, 11:23:40 AM
https://audioboom.com/boos/3985652-greg-kampe-oakland-university-basketball-coach-december-22-2015
Here is a link to interview. At around 6 mins he mentions Valpo and at 8 the tournament
Wrong interview. There was nothing here about the tournament or Valpo. This was prior to the MSU game.
This is the one I think you meant to post:
https://audioboom.com/boos/3989065-greg-kampe-oakland-university-head-basketball-coach-december-23-2015
He actually said nothing whatsoever about advantage at the tournament. Just invited MSU fans to come and take a gander.
Sorry, ok I'm an old guy and not good at this link stuff, but the point is some guy comes on here with an agenda and says crap that isn't true and people pile on.
And why do I have to be an idiot. Kampes recruited for 40 years, he starts 4 kids from Detroit and the tourney has never been in Detroit. You think Palenbizo came to Oakland over Valpo because of the tourney?
Quote from: Grizz on December 30, 2015, 01:25:14 PM
And why do I have to be an idiot. Kampes recruited for 40 years, he starts 4 kids from Detroit and the tourney has never been in Detroit. You think Palenbizo came to Oakland over Valpo because of the tourney?
So Kampe is already the king of recruiting, and he won't sell to his Michigan recruits that the tournament is being played in Detroit every year? Man, I thought Valpo had some delusional fans.
Quote from: Grizz on December 30, 2015, 01:25:14 PM
And why do I have to be an idiot. Kampes recruited for 40 years, he starts 4 kids from Detroit and the tourney has never been in Detroit. You think Palenbizo came to Oakland over Valpo because of the tourney?
Here is the bottom line. If anyone thinks that the tourney in Detroit is not an advantage to Oakland and Detroit sadly they are idiots.
He came to Oakland because he was promised that he'd get to chuck up 10 three pointers a game (unless his brother was lying). Idk Grizz: wrong link in this thread wrong person in your callout thread might be time to take a brief vacation from the message boards.
Quote from: HC on December 30, 2015, 03:54:20 PM
He came to Oakland because he was promised that he'd get to chuck up 10 three pointers a game (unless his brother was lying). Idk Grizz: wrong link in this thread wrong person in your callout thread might be time to take a brief vacation from the message boards.
http://m.nwitimes.com/high-school/chesterton/chesterton-grad-palombizio-to-sign-with-oakland-university-for-basketball/article_23d87431-270e-5ece-844a-13bbf523184a.html
Valpo never gave him an offer. But the article does mention how he liked the idea of playing in Valpo once a year....
But of course nobody from Detroit would enjoy playing a conference tournament in their home town every year. I guess that sentiment only applies to region rats wanting to escape the lake effect weather.
It's this simple. The decision to hold the tournament in Detroit gives Oakland and Detroit a distinct advantage in both tournament play and recruiting. Period. Whether Kampe openly admitted it, said something to the contrary, or said nothing at all is completely immaterial. Rest assured, he did back flips when he heard the news, and not because he's thrilled for the Horizon League. Historically, he has shown by the way he over schedules OOC opponents for the sake of big pay days that being a good conference teammate is not high on his list.
Since the Mid-Con tourney days, when we traveled to Fort Wayne for three years, which should have had a Valpo sway to it, then moving to Kansas City, where UMKC held home court, for a couple of years, we've seen there was no distinct, clear cut advantage set for any team. It just happened to be that Valpo was that good , but didn't dominate every year, like we could or should have done. I just don't see this being a recruiting advantage or home court advantage to either UD or OU, in fact, I don't see people in Detroit coming out of the woodwork to attend the Horizon League Championship Tournament in large, massive droves to support either the Titans or the Grizzlies just because the games are at The Joe. For those who want to chirp about the fact that our best team in a few years or ever doesn't get to host the tourney, you're going to fall on deaf ears like Chicken Little when the sky isn't falling. Valpo fans have been spoiled for quite some time. Now we just need the guys to put together a great season, and peak when the HL tourney is here so they can get a great seed and game in the NCAA Tournament, even if we had to go play in Detroit to get to the NCAA tourney.
Quote from: valporun on January 02, 2016, 11:07:17 PMSince the Mid-Con tourney days, when we traveled to Fort Wayne for three years, which should have had a Valpo sway to it, then moving to Kansas City, where UMKC held home court, for a couple of years, we've seen there was no distinct, clear cut advantage set for any team. It just happened to be that Valpo was that good , but didn't dominate every year, like we could or should have done. I just don't see this being a recruiting advantage or home court advantage to either UD or OU, in fact, I don't see people in Detroit coming out of the woodwork to attend the Horizon League Championship Tournament in large, massive droves to support either the Titans or the Grizzlies just because the games are at The Joe. For those who want to chirp about the fact that our best team in a few years or ever doesn't get to host the tourney, you're going to fall on deaf ears like Chicken Little when the sky isn't falling. Valpo fans have been spoiled for quite some time. Now we just need the guys to put together a great season, and peak when the HL tourney is here so they can get a great seed and game in the NCAA Tournament, even if we had to go play in Detroit to get to the NCAA tourney.
Let's compare the conference tournament championship being in Valpo and against Oakland to the conference championship being in Detroit against Oakland. The conference tournament in Valpo will be less than 20% Oakland fans. The conference tournament championship game in Detroit would be more than 50%.
You are missing the point. In a 1 bid league you want to protect your best team and moving it to a neutral site does not. Why protect the best team? Better seed in the tournament and possibly a win thus giving the league more money.
Would Valpo be upset if the tournament was being held 1.5 hours away at the Rosemont in Chicago? (also 30 minutes from UIC and 2 hours from UWM). I still would be upset because it's not on campus giving the best opportunity to the best team.
There is no reward or advantage now.
NCAA tournament games are not held on campus gyms where you have 50% of your fans behind you. The current format may not protect the best team throughout the season, but I think it better prepares the winner for the NCAA tourney (big arena, not a huge amount of fans, sightlines, etc)
Although mentioned previously, a more long term impact has not received as much play in our discussions as it should: the OU and UDM recruiting bonus. This "neutral" location provides these two schools with a substantial recruiting advantage in the Detroit basketball community. By leveraging the "you'll be playing in the HL tourney here every March in front of your family and friends" card, Kampe and McCallum (or his successor) will be able to keep more local talent home -- and there is great talent in Detroit. Over time this is a big difference maker in shifting the HL axis of MBB power to the Detroit area. Right now, every school has a shot at every kid they recruit, because there is no built-in advantage other than what each school can bring to the table. IMO, in 4 years, these two schools will be dominating HL MBB and, with the HL tourney in Detroit annually, it will be self-perpetuating.
Valpo can't recruit a kid from Detroit and say....You get to come home for the HL tourney every year. Oakland starts 4 kids from Detroit now and everyone of those kids was there before the announcement. :-[
Quote from: Grizz on January 03, 2016, 12:54:54 PM
Valpo can't recruit a kid from Detroit and say....You get to come home for the HL tourney every year. Oakland starts 4 kids from Detroit now and everyone of those kids was there before the announcement. :-[
But Valpo can't say you'll also be playing ALL your home games in front of friends and family as well.
And this gives OU and UDM a much better crack at the
next level of talent that they might not have been able to get before.
Quote from: Grizz on January 03, 2016, 12:54:54 PM
Valpo can't recruit a kid from Detroit and say....You get to come home for the HL tourney every year. Oakland starts 4 kids from Detroit now and everyone of those kids was there before the announcement. :-[
We get it, Kampe already recruits perfectly in Detroit and thus, any more help isn't necessary - maybe even detrimental. Those 4 detroit commits... never going to get any better than that. We all know Oakland is a top 50 RPI at-large team this year.
Hey we're at it, let's convince ourselves that a statically well below average defender should win defensive player of the year.
3/4 of the detroit kids came from other programs.
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 03, 2016, 07:10:19 PM
3/4 of the detroit kids came from other programs.
Precisely my point. Right now they can't hold them. Once Motortown Madness takes hold, they will not have to beg kids to come back.
If there is an advantage, it's much more for UDM than for OU. I'm amazed that all the vitriol has been aimed at Oakland over this.
Reminds me of our old friend RB fuming in March 2004 at the thought of Tulsa winning the bid to host the tournament in 2005 -- standing in Kemper Arena, which is in Kansas City, home of the UMKC Kangaroos. His hypocrisy -- and he was forced to admit it -- had to do with the fact that ORU scared him, UMKC didn't.
Might the same be true here?
Sometimes it seems like Lacrone is building new ties with King Kampe and the Detroit gang like he did sleeping with Butler...just sayin'.
All we can do is complain and blog about it....And then watch Oakland and Detroit benefit.
If the Crusaders win the conference regular season, in addition to the loss of a home court advantage and the tremendous promotion of VU that would be received again by images of a packed and loud ARC on national television if the tournament were held at Valpo, there is a serious practical element to consider as well. The move of the tournament to Detroit not only takes away the opportunity for many VU fans who supported the team throughout the season to see the team in person, especially those with jobs or kids in school and others who cannot make such a trip due to lack of funds or poor health, but it also robs the Valparaiso community of a great deal of income that would have been produced. This would especially be true for the motels and restaurants, and their many employees, that would benefit greatly during the normal lull in sales usually occurring in March. I know Valpo residents who tell me they are upset by these issues.
If we were regularly a 2 or 3 bid league, then holding the tournament in Detroit's and Oakland's backyard (or anyone else's) would matter very little. Unfortunately, that's not the case. There is only 1 prize - 1 highly coveted, ultimate prize that separates 1 program from all the rest.
This being the case the HL tournament championship is simply too important to unfairly weigh it's outcome in favor of 2 programs "within walking distance" of the tournament venue.
It is time to move to a better league. I have a gut feeling our administration is thinking the same thing. We deserve better than membership in a declining 1-bid mid major league centered in Detroit Michigan.
I'm not angry at Kampe. I initially was annoyed when I heard the comments, but when I sat back and looked at the big picture, I realized I was just angry that he's a gamer and played the conference and Olympia into this HLT and I wish our athletic department could have been that smart.
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 03, 2016, 07:32:04 AMWould Valpo be upset if the tournament was being held 1.5 hours away at the Rosemont in Chicago? (also 30 minutes from UIC and 2 hours from UWM). I still would be upset because it's not on campus giving the best opportunity to the best team.
The Rosemont is about an hour away from MKE, 45 minutes if you're SRT4Driver (actually I'm not sure if he's on this board - long story short, the guy races cars even when there is no checkered flag).
Quote from: wh on January 04, 2016, 02:08:44 PM
If we were regularly a 2 or 3 bid league, then holding the tournament in Detroit's and Oakland's backyard (or anyone else's) would matter very little. Unfortunately, that's not the case. There is only 1 prize - 1 highly coveted, ultimate prize that separates 1 program from all the rest.
This being the case the HL tournament championship is simply too important to unfairly weigh it's outcome in favor of 2 programs "within walking distance" of the tournament venue.
It is time to move to a better league. I have a gut feeling our administration is thinking the same thing. We deserve better than membership in a declining 1-bid mid major league centered in Detroit Michigan.
The problem here is that there's nowhere to go. The MVC isn't going to 11 and I doubt they'd go 12. If Wichita State actually moves forward with that ridiculous football idea and leaves the MVC, there's your shot. But that's an if-and-only-if scenario. The Atlantic 10 is incredibly scattered and still has 14 teams.
However, I'll humor this discussion.
Perhaps the discussion should move away from which conference to move to. Perhaps the discussion should move towards looking for outside the box thinking. Here's my plan, if I'm the Milwaukee AD/Chancellor, on improving the conference:
Make one.
It's not such a crazy idea. There is precedence in the history of college sports, and there's a recent sort-of-example if you look outside basketball.
The latter example I'm referring to is the National Collegiate Hockey Conference, or NCHC. A few years ago, Penn State announced its move to NCAA D-I for ice hockey. This was incredibly important because up to that point, only five Big Ten schools played ice hockey (Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Michigan State and Ohio State). Once PSU added hockey, the Big Ten could field a conference. The Big Ten schools were divided among two conferences: Minnesota and UW in the WCHA, and OSU, U of M and MSU in the CCHA. All five schools joined PSU to create the B1G for hockey, which sounded like a death knell to the other conferences.
Except it wasn't. The best schools of the WCHA and CCHA got together and created the NCHC, a brand new league that got an automatic bid immediately to the NCAA hockey tournament. The leftovers of the CCHA folded into the WCHA, making what had been the WCHA and CCHA into the B1G, NCHC and WCHA.
Guess which conference was worst off? The Big Ten. They will build up eventually, but their hockey programs are split between national powers (Minny, UW, Mich) and also-rans (MSU kinda, OSU). The conference hasn't got its footing yet. The WCHA, made up of all the dregs, has been best or second best of the three conferences since the realignment happened.
In hoops, this has happened before, and it's happened in the midwest. The Great Midwest Conference, created in 1990, pulled schools from several different conferences to make a borderline high-major conference - Cincy and Memphis left the Metro, UAB left the Sun Belt, Marquette and Saint Louis left the MCC (Horizon), and DePaul, one of the last independents. Dayton joined in 93. In 1995, after a slew of more schools from different conferences joined up, the Midwest name no longer fit (lots of southern schools). They became Conference USA.
___________
Long story short, you can create a conference by taking the best of different leagues and running with them. I'd shoot for an 8-team League, but 10 would be all right and the most I would go for. These are the schools I would consider for such a conference:
Horizon: Valpo, Oakland, Wright State, Milwaukee. Those should all be for obvious reasons. In the next state budget round we'll get our advance money for the practice facility, a project that is said to cost about $13 million (better than the one Creighton just opened). Wright State already has the facilities, with a nice $9 million practice facility and still-solid Nutter Center. Valpo doesn't have the facilities but succeeds and can own it's metro area, which albeit small would be entirely yours if you had a solid conference. Oakland has a nice game facility and is a strong program, although I'd rank them 4th here because I think most of their success is due to Greg Kampe, and he's 60 years old. Besides these four? CSU leans entirely on students and no one has ever gone to games. YSU is YSU. NKU is too new to D-I for this conference. Detroit is a shadow of what they once were. UIC can't put anything together, but I'd rank them 5th in this scenario. GB has no room to grow their budget.
Summit: North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Oral Roberts, Denver. The latter exists in an air hub so travel isn't as expensive as flying most places and therefore they can be a bit far-flung. Oral Roberts is traditionally strong, but I do think their status as a bandit program would scare me away too much. NDSU and SDSU would be a package deal and IMO a strong package to take. They both have great facilities - in NDSU's case brand-new - and they absolutely own two states that are growing. Their football programs are profitable to their universities, which is more than can be said about most I-AA schools. They're strong publics. I don't think any other conference school is close or even worth mentioning.
Ohio Valley: Murray State, Belmont. You're talking about two schools that succeed and have done so for a long time. I'm not familiar with budgets, but I'm sure Belmont could stand to grow its budget for this new conference. Murray State owns its corner of Kentucky. Belmont's president doesn't believe the Horizon or MVC are strong enough brands to merit full membership. My guess is a brand new conference would change that. Morehead State may be successful, but I don't think I'd offer membership based on what Kenneth Faried did in school. Others are non-starters.
Atlantic 10: Dayton, Saint Louis. Both schools used to be in the Horizon League and got left behind in the major hoops-only shuffle. The thinking around Marquette was that they'd both get invited not long after the start of the Big East, but that hasn't happened yet. I believe the Big East thinking now is that 10 is a good enough number and there's no reason to keep adding. VCU and the east coast schools are too far; Duquesne is probably the only school I would consider, but they have no recent history and they're something of a bandit program (although not as brazen as Oral Roberts). Other schools are too far east or too crappy.
Missouri Valley: Wichita State, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, Missouri State, Loyola. I think the Ramblers' problems are the same as when they left us - yeah they have facilities, but the donor base is ancient and they have no recent success. They get you entry to the Chicago recruiting base, but so does Valpo/Milwaukee. Missouri State's gorgeous JQH Arena is a great facility and the basis for a good program. Illinois State covers a lot of that central Illinois ground and could be a strong addition. Northern Iowa and Wichita State are obvious picks; the question isn't would they be invited but rather would they accept?
Working just from those five conferences, you could build a pretty great 8 or 10 team league:
8 team: Milwaukee, Valpo, Murray State, Belmont, Dayton, SLU, Wichita, UNI. Obviously I'm biased in putting Milwaukee in there, but we're a couple years from breaking ground on a high-major practice facility, so you can see I'm not just paying lip service. Also the people in Milwaukee have come out for big regular season games - we had 6500 at a recent Valpo game, 7500 for Marquette, 8k for GB, 10k for Wisconsin...when students are surveyed and asked the question "why don't you come to games?", the most common answer is "level of competition in the arena." Of those teams, Valpo, SLU and UNI have brought over 6k fans to the Arena. If we had a conference full of those games, I think our attendance would skyrocket. Valpo may sell out the ARC all season.
That conference is also 4v4 Public vs Private. There's something like 35 NCAA Tournaments in the past 20 years there.
This is obviously just an exercise. I think booting YSU out of the conference in the summer rather than adding NKU would have been everything we needed for 2015-16. But WH has a point - something is wrong in this league. I just hope we can fix it before it all goes to hell.
Quote from: wh on January 04, 2016, 02:08:44 PMIf we were regularly a 2 or 3 bid league, then holding the tournament in Detroit's and Oakland's backyard (or anyone else's) would matter very little. Unfortunately, that's not the case. There is only 1 prize - 1 highly coveted, ultimate prize that separates 1 program from all the rest.
I like your "if" clause above, but for a slightly different reason. It doesn't change my mind about the venue change (let's be clear, the format has *not* changed ... yet), but I do think one of the reasons given for changing to a neutral site is faulty for the very reason hinted at.
"IF we were regularly a 2 or 3 bid league..." Remember one of the reasons given for why a neutral site is better is because higher conferences which often have multiple bids use a neutral site. Forget for a moment whether there's actually a connection of any sort between site choice and number of bids. Suppose there is. It is certainly unproven that simply changing to a neutral site will cause the conference to have multiple bids. It reminds me of baseball teams that shorten the fences to increase home run production, in spite of the fact that they do not have home run hitters, in other words, configuring your ballpark according to what you *wish* you had instead of according to what you *have*.
The fact is the HL is *not* a 2 or 3 bid league. If that's your reason for switching to a neutral site, it's putting the cart before the horse. You should wait until you *actually are* a 2 or 3 bid league, and *then* move to a neutral site.
*My* reason for liking a neutral site has nothing to do with bids, of course ;)
I think most of us recognize that winning the regular season may be a better determinant of a team's true ability. Milwaukee certainly wasn't the league's best team in 2014. The HL should protect the best team with more than a double bye. All Valpo fans should show up to Detroit wearing shirts that say "HL tournament should be in Valpo" (That is IF we win the conference season)
I just can't leave it alone.......
The AD @ Detroit gave out some numbers regarding all-session tickets for the JLA Horizon tournament. OU has sold 67, Detroit 59, Valpo around 40 or so, some schools only a handful. Milwaukee has worked out a package with the Greektown hotel and I believe is committing to a couple hundred. I got a sense that they were hoping things would be further along by now. Olympia said there would be "growing pains" and there is "lots of work to do" -- see above advance ticket sales numbers. They are hoping for an OU-Detroit final. Sounds like UDM could play a last game at JLA next season, prior to the tournament. There are also discussions underway that could lead to the Titans playing an inaugural hoops event at the new arena in 2017. Olympia Sports bought a new basketball floor recently for the HL tournament. Next year, the HL awards for basketball might be rolled into the tournament weekend.
>:( Thats all for now.
They should have named this year's tourney the "La
Crone Memorial". Could both items (Location and LaC) be gone after this year?
Quote from: valpo64 on January 13, 2016, 03:15:34 PM
They should have named this year's tourney the "La
Crone Memorial". Could both items (Location and LaC) be gone after this year?
Contractually obligated to Detroit for 5 years. Woof.
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 13, 2016, 02:37:32 PM
Olympia said there would be "growing pains" and there is "lots of work to do" -- see above advance ticket sales numbers. They are hoping for an OU-Detroit final.
Nice to see that the folks who are putting on the "Neutral Site" HL Tournament are remaining neutral. :crazy:
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 13, 2016, 02:37:32 PMSounds like UDM could play a last game at JLA next season, prior to the tournament. There are also discussions underway that could lead to the Titans playing an inaugural hoops event at the new arena in 2017.
That'd be next season not this season. Joe Louis is shutting down in 2017, I believe. Tournament will be there this year and next year.
Big surprise that so few tickets have been sold so far-maybe because it's JANUARY!
Not many fans are thinking about the tourney, let alone buying tickets . This might end up to be a colossal FAIL.
Welllll...putting myself in the mind of someone who might actually care...
the bottom 5/6 teams realize they will be probably be out after a game or two... so why buy a full package?
the top 4/5 teams are all still hoping for the double-bye... so why buy a full package?
Oh, wait... OAK and UDM, draw sooooo well, that they have ____ number of folks + the UofM and MSU fans that didn't get B1G tournament tickets, who will go to JLA to watch the games for the sheer glory of the sport.
Quote from: talksalot on January 13, 2016, 10:03:01 PM
Welllll...putting myself in the mind of someone who might actually care...
the bottom 5/6 teams realize they will be probably be out after a game or two... so why buy a full package?
the top 4/5 teams are all still hoping for the double-bye... so why buy a full package?
Oh, wait... OAK and UDM, draw sooooo well, that they have ____ number of folks + the UofM and MSU fans that didn't get B1G tournament tickets, who will go to JLA to watch the games for the sheer glory of the sport.
I've been to 1 game of the conference tournament every year since Valpo joined the Horizon, and this will be the first year I don't go to any games. I can't take off 3 days of work - the Monday to get up there, the Tuesday of the championship game, and the Wednesday to drive back (assuming the fog is equally as bad after the game as last year). Switching to a neutral location and having the semis and finals on a Monday and Tuesday is idiotic. I get ESPN probably had those dates locked in, but it's a real problem for the majority of out of town fans.
Quote from: a3uge on January 13, 2016, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on January 13, 2016, 03:15:34 PM
They should have named this year's tourney the "La
Crone Memorial". Could both items (Location and LaC) be gone after this year?
Contractually obligated to Detroit for 5 years. Woof.
I wonder if there is an "out" clause for either or both sides if after, say, 2 years the draw does not meet certain levels? That certainly is not going be publicized by either the HL or Olympia, but it would be foolish to continue a money loser ( if that happens) -- then it would be cut bait time. I would assume ::) that the smart people on both sides thought of that and wrote it into the contract.
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 13, 2016, 10:48:11 PMI wonder if there is an "out" clause for either or both sides if after, say, 2 years the draw does not meet certain levels? That certainly is not going be publicized by either the HL or Olympia, but it would be foolish to continue a money loser ( if that happens) -- then it would be cut bait time. I would assume that the smart people on both sides thought of that and wrote it into the contract.
I assume that most multi-year contracts these days have an "out clause" of some sort. For sports employment contracts, they're normal, and may just involve a significant financial penalty, right?
Worst case, I guess, you break the contract, let them sue you, and let the courts decide what's it worth. I'd hope the Horizon League doesn't have to resort to that, but... Contracts aren't signed in blood.
Can't be a money loser for the Horizon League. Olympia is paying the league 200,000k, each year. 1 million over 5 years. The tournament lost money last year at Valpo. Maybe this is just about money. Olympia is the one who will lose money, not the league.
Quote from: Grizz on January 14, 2016, 12:11:45 PM
Can't be a money loser for the Horizon League. Olympia is paying the league 200,000k, each year. 1 million over 5 years. The tournament lost money last year at Valpo. Maybe this is just about money. Olympia is the one who will lose money, not the league.
The payment by Olympia to the HL is the key driver behind the move to Detroit. The League saw the chance to reduce its cost and complexity of organizing and promoting a tournament, while increasing the potential revenue. Of course, Olympia also will do everything possible to promote the tournament in hopes of making their money back.
Quote from: Grizz on January 14, 2016, 12:11:45 PM
Can't be a money loser for the Horizon League. Olympia is paying the league 200,000k, each year. 1 million over 5 years. The tournament lost money last year at Valpo. Maybe this is just about money. Olympia is the one who will lose money, not the league.
If the Horizon sends a 15-seeded Detroit area team instead of Valpo at a 11-12 seed, they're pretty much guaranteeing they won't see the (at least) additional $1.7 million over 6 years from a round of 64 win. Last year the OVC screwed up their chance to make millions by having the tournament in Nashville. Belmont won over ranked Murray State, and got a 15 seed, eventually losing to #2 seed Virginia. 15 seeds have a 6% success rate vs 32% for 12 seeds. Sorry, but making it easier for a 100+RPI team to make the tournament is bad for the league. Home teams win ~67% of the time (Valpo has a 82% conference record at home in the past 5 years), and there's clearly an advantage for teams that do not have to travel at all.
Once the money from the tournament wins dried up, the Horizon had to take the guaranteed check. You can blame Valpo and Green Bay for that, but the fact is the Horizon missed out on an at-large in UWGB and a solid 12 seed twice for Valpo because of RPI killers at the bottom of the league, and teams like Oakland that finished below .500 because of crazy over-scheduling.
Quote from: a3uge on January 14, 2016, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: Grizz on January 14, 2016, 12:11:45 PM
Can't be a money loser for the Horizon League. Olympia is paying the league 200,000k, each year. 1 million over 5 years. The tournament lost money last year at Valpo. Maybe this is just about money. Olympia is the one who will lose money, not the league.
If the Horizon sends a 15-seeded Detroit area team instead of Valpo at a 11-12 seed, they're pretty much guaranteeing they won't see the (at least) additional $1.7 million over 6 years from a round of 64 win. Last year the OVC screwed up their chance to make millions by having the tournament in Nashville. Belmont won over ranked Murray State, and got a 15 seed, eventually losing to #2 seed Virginia. 15 seeds have a 6% success rate vs 32% for 12 seeds. Sorry, but making it easier for a 100+RPI team to make the tournament is bad for the league. Home teams win ~67% of the time (Valpo has a 82% conference record at home in the past 5 years), and there's clearly an advantage for teams that do not have to travel at all.
Once the money from the tournament wins dried up, the Horizon had to take the guaranteed check. You can blame Valpo and Green Bay for that, but the fact is the Horizon missed out on an at-large in UWGB and a solid 12 seed twice for Valpo because of RPI killers at the bottom of the league, and teams like Oakland that finished below .500 because of crazy over-scheduling.
Exactly. But, Oakland made out just fine because of all the big payday games. The League(everyone except Oakland) took it in the shorts.
Quote from: talksalot on January 13, 2016, 10:03:01 PM
Welllll...putting myself in the mind of someone who might actually care...
the bottom 5/6 teams realize they will be probably be out after a game or two... so why buy a full package?
the top 4/5 teams are all still hoping for the double-bye... so why buy a full package?
Oh, wait... OAK and UDM, draw sooooo well, that they have ____ number of folks + the UofM and MSU fans that didn't get B1G tournament tickets, who will go to JLA to watch the games for the sheer glory of the sport.
Good luck to them to expect UM & MSU fans to attend.
Thoughts from the HL commercial (played during game broadcasts) featuring 5 or 6 coaches promoting the tournament in Detroit.
•The NKU coach promotes the "experience" for the fans. My question has always been - what fans? Most HL teams play home games in large, mostly empty barns. Empty seats stand out on TV like a sore thumb. Student cheering sections are practically nonexistent. How many fans are UIC, CSU, YSU and NKU going to bring to watch "exciting" HL bb in Detroit MI with the semis and finals on work/school days? 50 - maybe? How many GB fans are going to make that long trip around the lake? Another 50? How many Valpo, WSU or Milw fans will be there? When we hosted WSU in the 2013 championship game, I seriously doubt they had more than a hundred fans there. How many are they going to have in Detroit?
•Some of the coaches mention that this is what all the major conferences do, as if all we have to do is hold the tournament in a "neutral" location to gain that level of respect. Unfortunately, this is typical of people in positions of authority who are in over their heads - always looking for quick, easy solutions and shortcuts to complicated issues.
Quote from: wh on January 26, 2016, 01:17:01 PM
Thoughts from the HL commercial (played during game broadcasts) featuring 5 or 6 coaches promoting the tournament in Detroit.
•The NKU coach promotes the "experience" for the fans. My question has always been - what fans? Most HL teams play home games in large, mostly empty barns. Empty seats stand out on TV like a sore thumb. Student cheering sections are practically nonexistent. How many fans are UIC, CSU, YSU and NKU going to bring to watch "exciting" HL bb in Detroit MI with the semis and finals on work/school days? 50 - maybe? How many GB fans are going to make that long trip around the lake? Another 50? How many Valpo, WSU or Milw fans will be there? When we hosted WSU in the 2013 championship game, I seriously doubt they had more than a hundred fans there. How many are they going to have in Detroit?
•Some of the coaches mention that this is what all the major conferences do, as if all we have to do is hold the tournament in a "neutral" location to gain that level of respect. Unfortunately, this is typical of people in positions of authority who are in over their heads - always looking for quick, easy solutions and shortcuts to complicated issues.
1. As a fan, I would say, "ME!!!" As for how many, my response would be "I don't care". As a fan, I absolutely love it.
2. On this point, you are spot on. I mentioned this before. If this was the only reason why they did it, then I would have no problem with shouting them down. As indicated in (1), however, that's not the only reason.
I would probably make the drive just for the title game, no chance of going to all the games so they're missing out on my money. Also, I'd be much more inclined to drive to an opponents gym who was hosting and was Valpo's opponent knowing the place was going to be packed with (soon to be) disappointed fans then I am to drive 4 hours both ways to watch a game where you can probably hear every snarky comment made from know it all bleacher coaches/refs. Rather watch it on tv.
I might be proved wrong, but I have a feeling this is going to be a disaster.
Quote from: HC on January 26, 2016, 09:23:09 PM
I would probably make the drive just for the title game, no chance of going to all the games so they're missing out on my money. Also, I'd be much more inclined to drive to an opponents gym who was hosting and was Valpo's opponent knowing the place was going to be packed with (soon to be) disappointed fans then I am to drive 4 hours both ways to watch a game where you can probably hear every snarky comment made from know it all bleacher coaches/refs. Rather watch it on tv.
I might be proved wrong, but I have a feeling this is going to be a disaster.
It will be a disaster for most fans, but probably not for the Oakland-University dealmakers who are behind all this--George Hynd, Horizon's board chairman and president of Oakland University, Jeff Konya, Chair of Horizon's Executive Council and Director of Athletics at Oakland, Grosse Pointe's Julie Roe Lach, the Horizon League Deputy Commissioner, and King Kampe himself. They've probably all gotten their reward for making it happen, perhaps some of it coming from Oakland's years of playing guarantee games. Of course the ultimate payoff of Oakland ruling the Horizon has yet to materialize and there are never any guarantees of that, but all the advantages have been put in place.
http://www.grossepointenews.com/Articles-Community-i-2016-01-21-259536.114135-Horizon-League-championship-comes-to-the-D.html (http://www.grossepointenews.com/Articles-Community-i-2016-01-21-259536.114135-Horizon-League-championship-comes-to-the-D.html)
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 03, 2016, 09:46:07 AMIMO, in 4 years, these two schools will be dominating HL MBB and, with the HL tourney in Detroit annually, it will be self-perpetuating.
I'm sorry, VULB#62, I just can't believe this will happen. You are discounting the Valpo coaching staff and the way they recruit to say that Detroit and Oakland will dominate the HL in 4 years with no murmur even from Valpo. You remember who said they would dominate the Mid-Con? Look what happened.
Whoa, that was a month ago. At that point OU and Detroit hadn't lost an HL game yet. But my comment was not to denigrate our program. It was to emphasize that the deck was being stacked against us and it kinda smelled (to me at least) that it was by design. And, yes, I checked in with Oliver Stone to see if my intuition was properly directed. ;D
I know the HL wanted a big city for the splash, but to be fair geographically, Ft. Wayne would have been a truly neutral site and kind of equally accessible by everyone. And I think they have a pretty decent arena, don't they?
In today's electronic world a packed FW arena on ESPN looks just as cool as any other place. And certainly better than a ⅓ full JLA.
Quote from: Valpower on February 02, 2016, 04:43:54 PMQuote from: HC on January 26, 2016, 09:23:09 PMI would probably make the drive just for the title game, no chance of going to all the games so they're missing out on my money. Also, I'd be much more inclined to drive to an opponents gym who was hosting and was Valpo's opponent knowing the place was going to be packed with (soon to be) disappointed fans then I am to drive 4 hours both ways to watch a game where you can probably hear every snarky comment made from know it all bleacher coaches/refs. Rather watch it on tv. I might be proved wrong, but I have a feeling this is going to be a disaster.
It will be a disaster for most fans, but probably not for the Oakland-University dealmakers who are behind all this--George Hynd, Horizon's board chairman and president of Oakland University, Jeff Konya, Chair of Horizon's Executive Council and Director of Athletics at Oakland, Grosse Pointe's Julie Roe Lach, the Horizon League Deputy Commissioner, and King Kampe himself. They've probably all gotten their reward for making it happen, perhaps some of it coming from Oakland's years of playing guarantee games. Of course the ultimate payoff of Oakland ruling the Horizon has yet to materialize and there are never any guarantees of that, but all the advantages have been put in place. http://www.grossepointenews.com/Articles-Community-i-2016-01-21-259536.114135-Horizon-League-championship-comes-to-the-D.html (http://www.grossepointenews.com/Articles-Community-i-2016-01-21-259536.114135-Horizon-League-championship-comes-to-the-D.html)
How did all these new kids on the block get to be on the board? Shouldn't they gain some experience or buy some time?
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 02, 2016, 07:31:37 PMI know the HL wanted a big city for the splash, but to be fair geographically, Ft. Wayne would have been a truly neutral site and kind of equally accessible by everyone. And I think they have a pretty decent arena, don't they?
I think that would have been better as well, but it's never going to happen. It has to be in a conference city or you're never going to see the place anywhere close to packed for any of the games. Mind you, that's not me talking, that's everyone who matters talking. I actually think it's possible at a place like Fort Wayne to fill the place, but you have to admit the chances are slim. We used to play there in March, remember? 3 years, if I'm not mistaken.
Of course, I never cared whether the place was full or not, because I never cared how it looked on TV ;)
Quote from: Valpower on February 02, 2016, 04:43:54 PM
Quote from: HC on January 26, 2016, 09:23:09 PM
I would probably make the drive just for the title game, no chance of going to all the games so they're missing out on my money. Also, I'd be much more inclined to drive to an opponents gym who was hosting and was Valpo's opponent knowing the place was going to be packed with (soon to be) disappointed fans then I am to drive 4 hours both ways to watch a game where you can probably hear every snarky comment made from know it all bleacher coaches/refs. Rather watch it on tv.
I might be proved wrong, but I have a feeling this is going to be a disaster.
It will be a disaster for most fans, but probably not for the Oakland-University dealmakers who are behind all this--George Hynd, Horizon's board chairman and president of Oakland University, Jeff Konya, Chair of Horizon's Executive Council and Director of Athletics at Oakland, Grosse Pointe's Julie Roe Lach, the Horizon League Deputy Commissioner, and King Kampe himself. They've probably all gotten their reward for making it happen, perhaps some of it coming from Oakland's years of playing guarantee games. Of course the ultimate payoff of Oakland ruling the Horizon has yet to materialize and there are never any guarantees of that, but all the advantages have been put in place.
http://www.grossepointenews.com/Articles-Community-i-2016-01-21-259536.114135-Horizon-League-championship-comes-to-the-D.html (http://www.grossepointenews.com/Articles-Community-i-2016-01-21-259536.114135-Horizon-League-championship-comes-to-the-D.html)
This is exactly what Olliver Stone told me when he said my reply to H-man was spot on. At least I think it was Ollie - I hear so many voices these days it's sometimes difficult to sort them out ::)
Seriously, after reading that article, my advice to my alma mater can best be stated by Monte Python: "Run away, run away!" What a hose job. How can one school, a new one at that, consolidate so much power in so short a time?
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 02, 2016, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Valpower on February 02, 2016, 04:43:54 PMQuote from: HC on January 26, 2016, 09:23:09 PMI would probably make the drive just for the title game, no chance of going to all the games so they're missing out on my money. Also, I'd be much more inclined to drive to an opponents gym who was hosting and was Valpo's opponent knowing the place was going to be packed with (soon to be) disappointed fans then I am to drive 4 hours both ways to watch a game where you can probably hear every snarky comment made from know it all bleacher coaches/refs. Rather watch it on tv. I might be proved wrong, but I have a feeling this is going to be a disaster.
It will be a disaster for most fans, but probably not for the Oakland-University dealmakers who are behind all this--George Hynd, Horizon's board chairman and president of Oakland University, Jeff Konya, Chair of Horizon's Executive Council and Director of Athletics at Oakland, Grosse Pointe's Julie Roe Lach, the Horizon League Deputy Commissioner, and King Kampe himself. They've probably all gotten their reward for making it happen, perhaps some of it coming from Oakland's years of playing guarantee games. Of course the ultimate payoff of Oakland ruling the Horizon has yet to materialize and there are never any guarantees of that, but all the advantages have been put in place. http://www.grossepointenews.com/Articles-Community-i-2016-01-21-259536.114135-Horizon-League-championship-comes-to-the-D.html (http://www.grossepointenews.com/Articles-Community-i-2016-01-21-259536.114135-Horizon-League-championship-comes-to-the-D.html)
How did all these new kids on the block get to be on the board? Shouldn't they gain some experience or buy some time?
FYI, Valpower goes back on Valpo message boards much longer than you and most posters on this board and previous boards.
What a freaking joke. Why not 2016, she said? Of course, why not, since nobody was going to win home court advantage this season outside of Valpo. Also, the other HL schools that were not happy with the attention that the HL tournament was receiving, is because it was always Valpo that was receiving the attention. It happens when you move on from being the Monsters of the Mid-Con to the Hosts of the Horizon League every season ;). It won't ever happen, but I still dream of a MVC invite. STL is a true neutral venue that embraces their tournament.
I was talking about the new guys (Oakland) being on the board (HL tourney) not the poster and our message board. Basically how did Oakland get so influential so quick?
Same question I asked a couple of posts ago and I am restating it here to emphasize Micks point
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 03, 2016, 07:09:40 AM
I was talking about the new guys (Oakland) being on the board (HL tourney) not the poster and our message board. Basically how did Oakland get so influential so quick?
Sorry, I hope you understand my confusion.
I understand and no worries. What I don't understand, is how LeCrone allows Oakland to influence him as so. Next the HL offices will move to Detroit.
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 03, 2016, 10:26:28 AM
I understand and no worries. What I don't understand, is how LeCrone allows Oakland to influence him as so. Next the HL offices will move to Detroit.
I doubt LeCrone wants to move to Detroit. The Horizon League heir apparent, Julie Lach is also in Indy. Doesn't really make sense to pick up and move to Detroit because a tournament is played once a year in that location.
HL Standings with tie-breaker scenarios through games Thursday 2/4
1 Valparaiso 9-1
2 Oakland 8-3 - holds the tie-breaker
2 Wright State 8-3 - play again Monday 2/15
4 Milwaukee 6-4 - holds the tie-breaker
4 Green Bay 6-4 - play again Monday 2/15
6 Detroit 5-6
7 Youngstown State 4-7 - play again 2/27
7 Northern Kentucky 4-7 - Holds the tie-breaker
9 Cleveland State 2-9 ... other conference win was over NorKy
10 Illinois-Chicago 1-9 ... already played CSU twice and split.
Some fan speculation about moving the HL tournament to Cincinnati, if they continue to use a neutral site. I like that move a great deal for them. Cincinnati is a burgeoning hoops market, and it would enhance the image of the league in that area. What's more, two of the league's more successful teams that also lead the league in average attendance at 4000+, reside within easy driving distance of the city and have demonstrated an ability to do well in the conference tournament. This would ensure that the games are well-attended throughout the tournament. The main question I have is exactly which venue would\could they use?
http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net/thread/1102/motor-city-madness?page=2
That's a good move for the HL. Hope they choose a facility that's not too large. Still think they should keep it on campus.
Quote from: oklahomamick on August 01, 2018, 11:00:09 AM
That's a good move for the HL. Hope they choose a facility that's not too large. Still think they should keep it on campus.
Cintas Center seats 10,250. It could work well if they rope off the upper deck.
Would NCAA rules allow the use of the Cintas Center which is owned by Xavier University for this tournament since they aren't a member of the Horizon League?
Quote from: oklahomamick on August 01, 2018, 11:00:09 AMThat's a good move for the HL. Hope they choose a facility that's not too large. Still think they should keep it on campus.
Quote from: oklahomamick on August 01, 2018, 11:00:09 AMThat's a good move for the HL. Hope they choose a facility that's not too large. Still think they should keep it on campus.
I agree, if they could find a good spot. It would also provide a powerful incentive for Wright State and NKU--two schools that I think could possibly be of interest to the MVC one day--to stay put like the Dakotas in the Summit League or Belmont in the OVC.
The Horizon League announces new format for their tournament. Also confirms 2019 will be the last year for Motor City Madness.
http://horizonleague.org/news/2018/9/11/mens-basketball-horizon-league-announces-dates-bracket-for-2019-motor-city-madness.aspx (http://horizonleague.org/news/2018/9/11/mens-basketball-horizon-league-announces-dates-bracket-for-2019-motor-city-madness.aspx)
"Opportunities to host future Horizon League Men's and Women's Basketball Championships will be open to all of our member schools, and their surrounding communities, including Detroit. We are open to collaborative bids from a variety of partners," continued LeCrone."
---which I guess means the "Top Seed Won't Host" is a given for them...
............. unless they lucked into the championship venue bid on the year they won the league. ::)
Honestly the Indiana Farmers Coliseum at the State Fair grounds is not a terrible venue. I bet LeCrone wants to stay at home and holds his tournament in Indy. IUPUI probably won't have good crowds as usual and won't be in the running for the championship.
Anything new on the law suit vs. Valpo?
Here's a thought that has been in my head for awhile:
If the HL wants to "be like the big boys" and keep its neutral site tournament why not try alternating sites? If they add RMU as rumored they can alternate between Pittsburgh and Milwaukee two sites that don't usually host tournaments but are fun cities. They can alternate one year east one year west. If they desire they can keep other sites in rotation in years those cities aren't hosting other major tournaments. I think they should go back to campus sites. I liked that about the old league, but if they want to keep a neutral site tournament this may be a workable solution.
It's all chalk in the final Motor City Madness as Drew McDonald's pick and pop 3 pointer propels NKU past a tough up and coming Oakland squad 64-63. This was a great game full of runs and showed that Oakland's future is really bright. I didn't think they had it in them to come back after blowing that huge lead and finding themselves down double digits themselves. They showed a lot of character. NKU vs Wright State tomorrow is going to be amazing. My money's on Wright State. It's also very clear that the HL is getting better.
I also think expansion is coming soon. PFW and RMU most likely. SL Commissioner Douple's comments were telling. He stopped just short of talking about them in the past tense in a recent interview. I think UMKC and Augustana will be joining the SL soon. WIU is another flight risk for the OVC if and when the MVC finally adds Murray State. The MVC may target an HL team as #12 though I think Belmont could be a distinct possibility if they miss the tournament.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 11, 2019, 11:31:54 PM
It's all chalk in the final Motor City Madness as Drew McDonald's pick and pop 3 pointer propels NKU past a tough up and coming Oakland squad 64-63. This was a great game full of runs and showed that Oakland's future is really bright. I didn't think they had it in them to come back after blowing that huge lead and finding themselves down double digits themselves. They showed a lot of character. NKU vs Wright State tomorrow is going to be amazing. My money's on Wright State. It's also very clear that the HL is getting better.
I also think expansion is coming soon. PFW and RMU most likely. SL Commissioner Douple's comments were telling. He stopped just short of talking about them in the past tense in a recent interview. I think UMKC and Augustana will be joining the SL soon. WIU is another flight risk for the OVC if and when the MVC finally adds Murray State. The MVC may target an HL team as #12 though I think Belmont could be a distinct possibility if they miss the tournament.
Yes, but you can't discount the fact that Oakland had no tournament wins in the time that the HL championship was held in Detroit. They actually may not have won any tourney games outside of the O'Rena on a "so-called" neutral floor. Kampe should have done better than that.
No argument here. It's not a good look when you can't win "neutral floor" games in your own backyard. We'll see if IUPUI does any better though I'm sure they'll be fine as that's not a neutral floor. What's even more perplexing about OU\UDM's inability to win on that floor is that they even got warmup games against UM\MSU some years.