I figured it was about time someone started a Motor City Madness thread. There have been complaints and arguments for and against the tournament on various threads, so I thought let's get it done.
Plus, I wrote much of this post on a thread a few weeks ago and it was buried, so I wanted to bring it back in light of current discussions taking place.
As most of you old-timers know, I used to be a member of the local media and covered the Crusaders for many years. Now, I have "regular" job but still love most sports, in particular Valpo basketball. I go to as many home games as I can, read this board and enjoy any articles written about the team.
The Horizon League know-it-alls who moved the tournament to Detroit must have been afflicted with some sort of ailment which led to their Motor City Madness. One-site conference tournaments are not good for casual fans.
Who benefits from the tournament at one site:
1. The Media: They get to see all the games for free. Most media members have their expenses covered by their employer. Mileage expense. Hotel. Food. They get to see all the teams in one venue. They get free meals at the arena. It's awesome. Some of my best memories are covering Mid-Continent Conference tournaments in the Quad Cities and in Kansas City.
2. The Horizon League Staff: Same perks as the media. One site, 10 teams (or 20 with the women). The league people can mingle with all the important people from all the schools, all in one spot. And none of them have to pay anything to do so.
3. To an extent, the players: This is a point made by Greg Kampe in Paul Oren's podcast. All the players receive gifts. They are treated well, as they should. They get to stay in, I'm sure, a very nice hotel. They get to see kids from other teams in a social setting. Maybe they will even have a banquet, which the "old" Mid-Con did one year when the tournament was at Wright State.
4. Certain fans: For those who don't have to worry about vacation days or the expense of getting to and staying in Detroit, it's great if you want to watch a bunch of games over the course of a couple days.
Who does NOT benefit from the tournament at one site:
1. The Average Fan: Hey, that's me now! And that's what led to my post (edited, below) from another thread.
I've had to laugh at lines from people like Kampe and LeCrone about the conference tournament attracting "fan bases" from all the schools. It's really only going to be the parents of the players and the few die-hards associated with the program. And for the bottom-feeder teams, it's going to be even worse. Except, of course Oakland and Detroit fans.
There's no way an average person would want to make the commitment to go to Detroit. And I'm not bashing just Detroit. This would be the case for me if the tournament was just about anywhere.
If Valpo earns the No. 1 seed and advances to the title game, this would be the schedule: a 5:30 p.m. game on March 4, a 7 p.m. game on March 6 and a 7 p.m. game on March 7.
March 4 is a Saturday, so I leave Valpo in the 9 a.m. range for the game at 4:30 central. Gas for the five-hour drive, maybe $30-$40?
Tickets for the game - I'm sure they aren't cheap. It looks like a floor-level seat is $40 per session.
Hotel room for Saturday night, Sunday night and Monday night - $100 minimum (I've lowered my estimate from a few weeks ago. I have to take vacation days off from work on Monday and Tuesday. The championship is at 6 Central on Tuesday, meaning the game ends at 8. A five-hour drive home puts me back in Valpo in the 1-2 a.m. range. And then I'm supposed to be at work on Wednesday at 8 a.m. so I don't have to take a third vacation day. I'm too old to do that any more.
So here's the tab: $300 for 3 nights in a hotel, $100 (at least) for food, $100 (at least) for gas, $160 for 1 ticket, 3 sessions = that is $66- for a bare bones estimate. Plus I burn two vacation days in early March and I'm dead tired when I get back on Wednesday morning. AND, this is assuming I go by myself, leaving my wife at home for 4 days with my 12-year-old son who would probably rather be with me and miss 2 days of school.
Plus, if Valpo LOSES in the first round ... do I really want to stay in Detroit another three days? Absolutely not. I hope I can get a refund on the hotel and go back to work on Monday, retaining my vacation days.
All of this for a tournament with a crappy off-campus atmosphere where they have to hide the empty seats from the ESPN cameras. And in an environment that makes it much easier for a Non-No. 1 seed to win, giving the Horizon League a No. 15 seed in the NCAA Tournament.
I don't care what kind of extra entertainment the league lines up. I'm staying home and watching the games online or on TV.
The league must really hate Valpo to make this deal with Detroit. Taking away the incentive to win the league and host the tournament was a huge mistake. Thank you, Horizon League.
I'm not against Detroit. I'm against the one-site tournament, and I'm sorry if Kampe thinks this is going to "grow" the league. Not a chance.
All of this. Everyone wants to point to the success of Arch Madness, but forgetting that it's truly a neutral site, relatively centrally-located to the conference schools (six of the 10 league schools are within a 2.5 hour drive, and the three most far flung members all have access to cheap, direct flights on Southwest), that they have a Fri.-Sat.-Sunday format (with the championship ending early afternoon on Sunday, so no one has to worry about taking work off on Monday). And St. Louis locals support the tourney like crazy. And because the MVC takes investing in facilities and scheduling by its members seriously and members pressure each other to avoid being RPI drags, they've been far more likely to not have a neutral-site tourney thwart its teams at-large chances.
A better comparison might be the MAC Tournament in Cleveland. And there's no question that has been a success, attendance wise, for that league, with semifinal and championship night attendances routinely being larger than 10,000 fans. But again, there are SIX conference members in Ohio (two within 30 minutes of the arena), more than 150,000 MAC alumni in Cleveland Metro, and two other out-of-state members within a 2.5 hour drive of The Q. But even in the MAC, there's the concern that the tourney has benefited Kent and Akron more than the rest of the league, as their ascendance to the top of the league coincides with the tourney being in those two schools' backyard. And again, the league employs a Thurs. - Sat. format, so it's possible to attend the entire shindig and only miss one day of work. It's worth pointing out that despite the gate success, this has arguably hurt the MAC from competing for at-large bids. Top teams were bounced in the early to mid 2000s, the league became known as a one-bid league, and they haven't returned (by contrast, the MAC was a two-bid league three times in the previous five seasons before moving the tourney to Cleveland).
Contrast that to Detroit, with only two league members within 4.5 hours of the venue, no local alumni outside of those two schools in the area, no local support (and while we're on the subject -- if Detroit is the answer, why in the heck is the HL home office still located in Indy instead of Detroit, or Chicago, or any other actual HL market that deserves its economic support and the associated jobs?), and an awkward Sat. - Tues. format that makes it impossible to attend without taking at least two and possibly three days off of work? Oh, and to top the sundae, the fan base of the #1 seeded team feels completely slighted, because they know that for 15 years prior to last season, they'd be rewarded by hosting the tourney instead of venturing to Detroit to play in an empty arena. Can't imagine why it won't work.
While I do not disagree with any of your points it seems that the trend is the one site approach. I just checked all the conference tourneys and only 5 are entirely on campus sites....American East, Atlantic Sun, Big South, Northeast and Patriot.
The Ivy (yes they a tourney this year) plays all the games at Penn. Additionally, CUSA (UAB), MAAC (Siena) and MWC (UNLV) play a one site "campus" tourney though I am not sure how many of those 4 are on the campus.
2 (MAC and SWAC) start on campus but finish at a neutral site.
The remaining 21 play entirely in a neutral site. Of course there are levels of neutral............
I'm not saying a neutral site could never work. But you need to find something a) more centrally located or b) home to a large concentration of alumni from multiple schools around the league to support it. You also need to go to an all-weekend format, even if that means a less desirable TV slot for the title game.
Also, and yes I'll repeat it because its the truth - you will likely never have the support of Valpo fans due to the way the change went down: with almost no debate among the league or its fans, with less than a year's notice, with Valpo heading into a potentially historic season. The HL would never have pulled that in a million years heading into Butler's 2010 season and everyone knows it. The move may not have been specifically targeting Valpo's successful run, but it sure as heck feels that way to every VU fan I've ever talked to about this.
Quote from: Valpo89 on February 17, 2017, 01:52:17 PMOne-site conference tournaments are not good for casual fans.
Why are you a casual fan? That is the real issue here. I have never considered myself a casual fan and don't understand why others would only semi-support their team. Join the real fun!
All valid points by the posters above. For me personally, even though the venue is not "neutral", it was the five year deal without a proper roll-out that was the killer, and not the fact that the tournament was being held in Detroit.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 17, 2017, 02:57:41 PM
I'm not saying a neutral site could never work. But you need to find something a) more centrally located or b) home to a large concentration of alumni from multiple schools around the league to support it.
What city would satisfy this criteria? The HL is so geographically compact and so urban-centric that it would be nearly impossible to play this thing in a city that would be considered to be a major media location but at the same time does not have a home court advantage for at least one league team. Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dayton--all of these cities potentially have a non-neutral component to them by way of a local fan base. So what cities would fit the criteria? Indianapolis? Grand Rapids? Pull a Mid-Con
part deux and host in Fort Wayne? Columbus? Serious question.
And LeCrone's comments during the YSU halftime interview about how the Michigan fan bases will be relied upon to help support the tournament makes this situation even odder. Someone in the other thread mentioned this and it was a good point--if the HL is relying on local fan bases to help support the tournament in the first place, the League might have well kept it at local sites anyway to begin with.
QuoteWhat city would satisfy this criteria? The HL is so geographically compact and so urban-centric that it would be nearly impossible to play this thing in a city that would be considered to be a major media location but at the same time does not have a home court advantage for at least one league team. Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dayton--all of these cities potentially have a non-neutral component to them by way of a local fan base. So what cities would fit the criteria? Indianapolis? Grand Rapids? Pull a Mid-Con part deux and host in Fort Wayne? Columbus? Serious question.
No easy answer there. Chicago probably has the most alumni from the most schools, but then its a potential advantage for UIC. But again, that reinforces the difference between an MVC/MAC setup and the way the HL's fanbases are scattered. It also underscores my second point: if the HL is going to a neutral site, not having an all-weekend tourney setup to make it easier for fans to attend is insanity.
(I'd still like to hear a good reason why the HL headquarters remain in Indy five years after Butler's departure).
The geographic center of all ten members of the Horizon League, for what it's worth, is the town of Camden, MI, pop. 500. It is just a few miles east of the northeasternmost point of Indiana. It's about midway (60 mi) between Kalamazoo, MI, Fort Wayne, IN, and Toledo, OH, although slightly closer to Fort Wayne than the other two.
I hate the idea of a neutral site tournament, but I have to wonder about putting it in Fort Wayne. I guess there isn't a huge HL alumni base there, but it can't be any more expensive than holding it in Detroit and it's more centrally located.
If I am going to something labeled Motor City Madness, then Ted Nugent better be performing there and Stranglehold is played during warmups.
Btw, Arch Madness is successful because the MVc has more tradition and history and in all honesty St. Louis is just a better place to host a bunch of universities for an event.m
I think Milwaukee would be a much better location.
Or they should just have it on the 1 seed's campus to reward them for having a good regular season.
Having it at the top seed site is a little too low mid major. I really like the idea of having it in Milwaukee every year.
I didn't realize that every team has to win 3 games (except for the teams that are really stinky). So essentially Valpo has to beat a stinky team, a less stinky team and a team that may or may not stink in order to make to the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: VUOR63 on February 19, 2017, 01:55:40 PM
I didn't realize that every team has to win 3 games (except for the teams that are really stinky). So essentially Valpo has to beat a stinky team, a less stinky team and a team that may or may not stink in order to make to the NCAA tournament.
Yes, that is the league's solution to having "cold" 1 and 2 seeds losing to lower seeded teams that have already won a game on the tournament court.
Quote from: usc4valpo on February 18, 2017, 06:03:40 PMHaving it at the top seed site is a little too low mid major. I really like the idea of having it in Milwaukee every year.
What makes a tournament "low" mid-major, though? Sure, the Power 5 schools play neutral site tournaments, but they can make it successful because 1) most of their schools have huge alumni bases that intently follow the basketball team and 2) they are multi-bid leagues, so teams like Purdue or Wisconsin will get into the Big Dance and make noise without having to win the conference tournament. Meanwhile, when the HL sends a middling Green Bay as its automatic qualifier (which is more likely with a neutral site HLT), it may make for a feel-good cinderella story until they get stomped by 27 in the first round of the NCAAs. And no one takes the Horizon League seriously anymore because of it.
If you ask me, the HLT at a neutral site makes the HL look like we
think we're a high major, when in fact we're more likely to send a middle-of-the pack team with our automatic qualifier to go one-and-done. And it's one-and-dones in March that will keep us at "low" mid-major status more than anything.
To set the record straight:
--- 26 of 32 conferences hold their tournament at a "neutral" site.
--- 20 of the 26 neutral site tournaments conclude on the weekend (Saturday or Sunday).
--- Of the 6 that conclude on a week night, 3 finish on Monday. 2 on Tuesday (HL and West Coast), and 1 on Wednesday (Patriot - low major).
Bottom line: the HL is 1 of only 3 neutral site conference tournaments in Division-1 that don't finish on a Saturday, Sunday or Monday. Apparently, the other 23 found a way to avoid selling their souls (screwing their fans) for an ESPN contract.
Quote from: Valpo89 on February 19, 2017, 03:23:04 PMQuote from: VUOR63 on February 19, 2017, 01:55:40 PMI didn't realize that every team has to win 3 games (except for the teams that are really stinky). So essentially Valpo has to beat a stinky team, a less stinky team and a team that may or may not stink in order to make to the NCAA tournament.
Yes, that is the league's solution to having "cold" 1 and 2 seeds losing to lower seeded teams that have already won a game on the tournament court.
I'm not all that mad about the double-bye being done away with. I believe in the post-Butler HLT era (2012-present) the double bye teams NOT playing on their home court have gone 1-6.
2012 - #2 CSU lost to #3 UDM at the ARC
2013 - #2 UDM lost to #3 WSU at the ARC
2014 - #2 CSU lost to #3 WSU at the Resch
2015 - #2 GB beat #6 UIC at the ARC, #2 GB lost to #1 Valpo at the ARC
2016 - #1 Valpo lost to #4 GB at the JLA, #2 Oak lost to #3 WSU at the JLA
1-6 doesn't sound like it's very advantageous.
I think other conferences have more of a step-ladder format, where the only teams that play three or four in a row (and can build up momentum) are the worst teams in the league. Not likely they go on runs. When high seeds lose in the HLT, it's 3 or 4 seeds (still competitive) that catch a hot streak and beat them. In a step ladder style tournament, 3 or 4 seeds would only have one extra game rather than two.
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 19, 2017, 04:05:38 PM1) most of their schools have huge alumni bases that intently follow the basketball team
A lot of people would call them "non-casual" or fanatic fans. A term which many on this board can not see themselves as being in that category. Many on this board label themselves "casual" fans and refuse to attend the HL tournament in any venue outside of a place within 100 miles of Valpo. I could go on about your "casualness" but you know who you are.
Quote from: bsmith21 on February 22, 2017, 08:13:47 AM
Fan is actually short for fanatic
So that would make "casual fan" an oxymoron? Interesting.
Maybe "casual team observer" would be more appropriate for some Valpo "observers" on this board. ::) ;)
Quote from: Valpo89 on February 17, 2017, 01:52:17 PM$160 for 1 ticket, 3 sessions
Here's one point that needed to be cleared up. All session tickets (5 sessions) are $75 in the Valpo section. Floor level are $120.
Then to counter my point I will add an expense you hadn't thought of. If you are staying away from the downtown area in a cheaper hotel not within walking distance of the JLA parking at the JLA parking garage is $10 per day.
Quote from: bbtds on February 22, 2017, 09:20:44 AM
Quote from: Valpo89 on February 17, 2017, 01:52:17 PM$160 for 1 ticket, 3 sessions
Here's one point that needed to be cleared up. All session tickets (5 sessions) are $75 in the Valpo section. Floor level are $120.
Then to counter my point I will add an expense you hadn't thought of. If you are staying away from the downtown area in a cheaper hotel not within walking distance of the JLA parking at the JLA parking garage is $10 per day.
Good points TD. I'm not going to debate my level of "fandom" with you. Honestly, it's hard for me personally to be a "fan."
Most people have other priorities that prevent them from spending the money and taking the time to go to a neutral site tournament. That's my biggest point from the fan-side of things.
And taking away the opportunity to host the tournament eliminates the biggest incentive for striving to win the regular season.
This was all the Horizon's way of sticking it to Valpo in more ways than one.
Quote from: bbtds on February 22, 2017, 07:26:48 AM
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 19, 2017, 04:05:38 PM1) most of their schools have huge alumni bases that intently follow the basketball team
A lot of people would call them "non-casual" or fanatic fans. A term which many on this board can not see themselves as being in that category. Many on this board label themselves "casual" fans and refuse to attend the HL tournament in any venue outside of a place within 100 miles of Valpo. I could go on about your "casualness" but you know who you are.
You'll be hard pressed to find over a dozen people willing to take 5 days off work for March basketball. 3 for the conference tourney, and 2 for the NCAA tournament. At some point fandom collides with living life.
Quote from: a3uge on February 22, 2017, 10:36:32 AMAt some point fandom collides with living life.
would you please tell me when that is? I haven't found that pressure point yet.
I went to Miami (OH), but I've become a big Valpo fan over the last couple years since my daughter is a student there.
I'd prefer that the conference tournament be held on a campus site. For mid-major conferences, I think it's needed to generate the crowds and enthusiasm that a chance to go to the NCAA Tournament represents.
That being said, if Valpo wins on Saturday of the tourney, I'll be heading from Indy to Detroit with my wife and daughter on Monday. We'll buy tickets as soon as Saturday's game is final.
It's a spring break trip for us. Not many people go to Detroit on spring break, but we are going to go and have a good time. We'll stay in a downtown hotel, have fun as a family, do some sightseeing, and cheer on Valpo to the NCAA Tournament. We figured that since my daughter isn't going anywhere else on spring break this year, we'd have a nice mini getaway.
Sure it's a little pricey, but going to the NCAA Tournament is special. Don't overlook that. This team needs and deserves our support. They should have been invited to the tournament last year, but this year they'll have to earn it. There are plenty of excuses you can make about why you shouldn't go to Motor City Madness, but if a team has as good a shot as this year's team does, it's worth making the sacrifice.
I'm committed at home on the Saturday. And it turns out the last YMCA volleyball practice I'm coaching is on the Monday, so I'm inclined to keep that commitment (missing the first half, alas). Meaning I'll probably wait to buy tickets until after Monday's game. And drive up Tuesday for the final. Logistics to be figured out... (do I rent a car, get a hotel, ahead of time and cancel them if the Monday game goes badly? or try to make reservations on 12-24 hours notice? Do I even want a hotel?).
Even without the Saturday and Monday commitments, I'm far from sure that I'd have gone up for the Saturday game. The gap day is too much. Especially too much time away from my family - not sure my wife's _quite_ invested enough to take a Sunday off for the Saturday game, or to drive late into the night Saturday. Maybe I'd have considered driving up Saturday myself, returning Saturday late or _maybe_ Sunday morning.
I did go for all possible #1 seed games last year. My enjoyment of the games after Valpo lost was limited - the non-basketball elements of the trip were enjoyable enough. I could probably get into some other League games while Valpo is still alive, but maybe I'm not _so_ excited about it that I'd want to add a day or more to my itinerary.
Quote from: a3uge on February 22, 2017, 10:36:32 AM
Quote from: bbtds on February 22, 2017, 07:26:48 AM
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 19, 2017, 04:05:38 PM1) most of their schools have huge alumni bases that intently follow the basketball team
A lot of people would call them "non-casual" or fanatic fans. A term which many on this board can not see themselves as being in that category. Many on this board label themselves "casual" fans and refuse to attend the HL tournament in any venue outside of a place within 100 miles of Valpo. I could go on about your "casualness" but you know who you are.
You'll be hard pressed to find over a dozen people willing to take 5 days off work for March basketball. 3 for the conference tourney, and 2 for the NCAA tournament. At some point fandom collides with living life.
Yet because of their numbers at majors there are large quantities from any school in the NCAA tournament who jump at the chance of going any where there is an NCAA tournament site to see their team play.
How many took time off from their jobs to drive or ride a bus to Columbus to see Valpo play a late afternoon game against Maryland in the NCAA tournament in 2015 that the Crusaders played to the wire against the highly rated Terrapins to lose only by three with Keith Carter getting possibly fouled on a non-call in the last few seconds? How many of you were at that game? Do you call yourselves "casual observers of Valpo men's basketball" or "Valpo fanatics?"
I think in general when we aren't good enough fans/observers we just make excuses for not going to ease our consciences about not sacrificing for members of a team and their parents that have sacrificed much more than we have ever sacrificed in our lives. Look at the time and skill Alec has dedicated to Valpo basketball. We have never dedicated our time, skill or money in the way Alec dedicated himself to a university we cherish deeply.
Hooray! that Alec and the Peters family will reap the benefits of that time and dedication that Alec and his family gave so dearly. I heard Alec's widowed grandmother drove her car from Washington, IL to Valpo then got on the fan bus to Oakland traveled the 4 plus hours to Oakland County saw her grandson play then traveled the 4 plus hours back to Valpo and drove her car back to Washington, IL in the early morning hours. That is real dedication! That's at least 15 plus hours of riding/driving to support your family member.
If my kid was on the team, I'd do the same thing.
That being said, I'm pretty sure Jubril's dad - always visible when Jubril was playing - has been absent from the spotlight during the suspension.
We all choose our way of following the team. I'm going to happily pay my expensive cable bill and enjoy the games on TV.
Quote from: Valpo89 on February 22, 2017, 03:46:36 PMThat being said, I'm pretty sure Jubril's dad - always visible when Jubril was playing - has been absent from the spotlight during the suspension.
I was pleased to see him at Senior Night. Albeit without the wig.
But, from the Senior Night video, it was a pretty interesting tie! Or maybe two ties? Somehow a gold bow tie _and_ a gold regular long/neck tie. Never seen anything like it.
Quote from: agibson on February 22, 2017, 05:55:10 PM
Quote from: Valpo89 on February 22, 2017, 03:46:36 PMThat being said, I'm pretty sure Jubril's dad - always visible when Jubril was playing - has been absent from the spotlight during the suspension.
I was pleased to see him at Senior Night. Albeit without the wig.
But, from the Senior Night video, it was a pretty interesting tie! Or maybe two ties? Somehow a gold bow tie _and_ a gold regular long/neck tie. Never seen anything like it.
Saw the double tie thing as well
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: agibson on February 22, 2017, 05:55:10 PM
Quote from: Valpo89 on February 22, 2017, 03:46:36 PMThat being said, I'm pretty sure Jubril's dad - always visible when Jubril was playing - has been absent from the spotlight during the suspension.
I was pleased to see him at Senior Night. Albeit without the wig.
But, from the Senior Night video, it
was a pretty interesting tie! Or maybe two ties? Somehow a gold bow I tie _and_ a gold regular long/neck tie. Never seen anything like it.
Saw the double tie thing as well
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: RedHawk on February 22, 2017, 11:47:38 AM
I went to Miami (OH), but I've become a big Valpo fan over the last couple years since my daughter is a student there.
I'd prefer that the conference tournament be held on a campus site. For mid-major conferences, I think it's needed to generate the crowds and enthusiasm that a chance to go to the NCAA Tournament represents.
That being said, if Valpo wins on Saturday of the tourney, I'll be heading from Indy to Detroit with my wife and daughter on Monday. We'll buy tickets as soon as Saturday's game is final.
It's a spring break trip for us. Not many people go to Detroit on spring break, but we are going to go and have a good time. We'll stay in a downtown hotel, have fun as a family, do some sightseeing, and cheer on Valpo to the NCAA Tournament. We figured that since my daughter isn't going anywhere else on spring break this year, we'd have a nice mini getaway.
Sure it's a little pricey, but going to the NCAA Tournament is special. Don't overlook that. This team needs and deserves our support. They should have been invited to the tournament last year, but this year they'll have to earn it. There are plenty of excuses you can make about why you shouldn't go to Motor City Madness, but if a team has as good a shot as this year's team does, it's worth making the sacrifice.
RedHawk, I am the opposite, a Valpo grad with a daughter at Miami................and people here complain about our basketball program...
Quote from: RedHawk on February 22, 2017, 11:47:38 AM
I went to Miami (OH), but I've become a big Valpo fan over the last couple years since my daughter is a student there.
I'd prefer that the conference tournament be held on a campus site. For mid-major conferences, I think it's needed to generate the crowds and enthusiasm that a chance to go to the NCAA Tournament represents.
That being said, if Valpo wins on Saturday of the tourney, I'll be heading from Indy to Detroit with my wife and daughter on Monday. We'll buy tickets as soon as Saturday's game is final.
It's a spring break trip for us. Not many people go to Detroit on spring break, but we are going to go and have a good time. We'll stay in a downtown hotel, have fun as a family, do some sightseeing, and cheer on Valpo to the NCAA Tournament. We figured that since my daughter isn't going anywhere else on spring break this year, we'd have a nice mini getaway.
Sure it's a little pricey, but going to the NCAA Tournament is special. Don't overlook that. This team needs and deserves our support. They should have been invited to the tournament last year, but this year they'll have to earn it. There are plenty of excuses you can make about why you shouldn't go to Motor City Madness, but if a team has as good a shot as this year's team does, it's worth making the sacrifice.
I think your strategy this supports the argument for a weekend into, at most, a Monday MCM.
First, Redhawk, you are waiting for the Saturday game results before committing. That is prudent, but If the tournament was a consecutive days tournament that ended with a championship on, say Sunday or Monday, I'd bet you'd consider arriving in Detroit for at least the semifinal (which, hopefully will have Valpo in it). Second you are traveling on a Monday for a Tuesday game. Not everyone can take 2-3 week days off to have a spring break like you and your family. Having said that though, have a great trip to Detroit and enjoy a Valpo final.
:deadhorse: Let me pile on. I find it contrary to logic the way the tournament is set up (which I know has been restated previously many times). The most important games -- semi-final and final are Monday and Tuesday instead of Saturday/Sunday or Sunday/Monday. On the other hand the first 2 rounds are Friday/Saturday. Why in heaven's name is the first round on Friday instead of Wednesday or Thursday so that the final could be played on Sunday or Monday?? The first round is essentially the play-in round with the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th seeds fighting it out to move on. These programs, with their losing records, probably will only draw the players' families and a few die hards -- half of which will be home by Saturday lunch time. If I had a choice of ensuring the highest attendance at the semi and final this certainly would not be my strategy.
Quote from: bsmith21 on February 23, 2017, 09:24:46 AM
They have to work within the TV schedule for later games. They really don't have much to bargain with.
In the age of ESPN3, is it time to stop sacrificing everything else for one Tuesday night game on ESPN2? Would ESPN care?
For my TV packages, ESPNU (e.g. the semi-finals) has often been _worse_ than ESPN3.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the Horizon League and the Mid-Continent Conference (now Summitt) have played their title games on the Tuesday before Selection Sunday for more than 20 years.
Someone may have already raised this question, so I apologize for asking it. I am just now looking at the MCM MBB schedule on the HL site It says.....
Friday
#10 vs. #7 (by my count this is game 1)
#9 vs. #8 (by my count this is game 2)
Saturday
#8 or #9 vs. #1 (by my count this is game 3)
#7 0r #8 Vs. #2 (by my count this is game 4)
Sunday
#6 vs. #3 (by my count this is game 5)
#5 Vs. #4 (by my count this is game 6)
Monday
Game 12 winner vs. game 7 winner ---- Game 12 - what?????? (by my count THIS IS game 7)
Game 11 winner vs. Game 8 winner ---- Game 11 - what?????? (by my count THIS IS game 8)
Tuesday
Game 16 winner vs. Game 15 winner ---- Game 16 and 15? Huh? Where did these come from?????
Here is my question: The title of the schedule web page specifically states Men's Basketball Tournament Central [PERIOD!]. Starting on Monday, is the HL braintrust suddenly co-mingling both the Men's and the Women's brackets into one hodgepodge (with no explanation or indication of game numbers) or are they just screwing up?
Quote from: agibson on February 23, 2017, 09:38:05 AM
Quote from: bsmith21 on February 23, 2017, 09:24:46 AM
They have to work within the TV schedule for later games. They really don't have much to bargain with.
In the age of ESPN3, is it time to stop sacrificing everything else for one Tuesday night game on ESPN2? Would ESPN care?
For my TV packages, ESPNU (e.g. the semi-finals) has often been _worse_ than ESPN3.
Exactly. Is it better to show a final on Tuesday with hardly anyone there or have the final on Sunday on ESPN3 and show a lively crowd that is more than just a few hundred. Demonstrate that you are achieving good attendance FIRST, then go for the increased exposure of ESPN 2.
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 23, 2017, 09:45:34 AM
Friday
#10 vs. #7 (by my count this is game 1)
#9 vs. #8 (by my count this is game 2)
Saturday
#8 or #9 vs. #1 (by my count this is game 3)
#7 0r #8 Vs. #2 (by my count this is game 4)
Sunday
#6 vs. #3 (by my count this is game 5)
#5 Vs. #4 (by my count this is game 6)
Monday
Game 12 winner vs. game 7 winner ---- Game 12 - what?????? (by my count THIS IS game 7)
Game 11 winner vs. Game 8 winner ---- Game 11 - what?????? (by my count THIS IS game 8)
Tuesday
Game 16 winner vs. Game 15 winner ---- Game 16 and 15? Huh? Where did these come from?????
Take a look at this graphic, it explains it all. HL Basketball Tournament Bracket (http://hln.s3.amazonaws.com/sports/brackets/2/bracket.pdf?1486420248)
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 23, 2017, 09:45:34 AMStarting on Monday, is the HL braintrust suddenly co-mingling both the Men's and the Women's brackets into one hodgepodge (with no explanation or indication of game numbers)
And, yes, the game numbers are interleaved between mens' and womens' games. Looks like they are numbered chronologically, but 1 and 2 are women, 3 and 4 are men, etc.
Quote from: FWalum on February 23, 2017, 10:11:57 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 23, 2017, 09:45:34 AM
Friday
#10 vs. #7 (by my count this is game 1)
#9 vs. #8 (by my count this is game 2)
Saturday
#8 or #9 vs. #1 (by my count this is game 3)
#7 0r #8 Vs. #2 (by my count this is game 4)
Sunday
#6 vs. #3 (by my count this is game 5)
#5 Vs. #4 (by my count this is game 6)
Monday
Game 12 winner vs. game 7 winner ---- Game 12 - what?????? (by my count THIS IS game 7)
Game 11 winner vs. Game 8 winner ---- Game 11 - what?????? (by my count THIS IS game 8)
Tuesday
Game 16 winner vs. Game 15 winner ---- Game 16 and 15? Huh? Where did these come from?????
Take a look at this graphic, it explains it all. HL Basketball Tournament Bracket (http://hln.s3.amazonaws.com/sports/brackets/2/bracket.pdf?1486420248)
Yes it does - sort of. As I look at it, the left bracket winds up facing the right bracket. In any other bracket graphic that would mean the final is Left vs. Right on the connecting line for the championship. Actually, each bracket should end in a single, championship line that does not show a connection. But then, I'm splitting hairs I guess. It just seems poorly done and both the MBB schedule and the bracket diagram, as stand-alone documents, leave questions unless you do some additional digging and correlate both.
In the age of ESPN3, is it time to stop sacrificing everything else for one Tuesday night game on ESPN2? Would ESPN care?
For my TV packages, ESPNU (e.g. the semi-finals) has often been _worse_ than ESPN3.
[/quote]
Exactly. Is it better to show a final on Tuesday with hardly anyone there or have the final on Sunday on ESPN3 and show a lively crowd that is more than just a few hundred. Demonstrate that you are achieving good attendance FIRST, then go for the increased exposure of ESPN 2.
[/quote]
In the age of the Horizon League Tourney being at home sites for many of those 20 years, it makes good sense to have on Tuesday (no competition from any other leagues regular or post-season games, pre-BIG 5 conference tourneys) and as the 7 pm prime time game. As the League has screwed that up and believes an empty arena is better for TV, they should re-evaluate the deal. It makes the Horizon look like a lesser league and the MVC and A-10 and Big East are all into the next weekend. The Horizon needs some serious future planning and direction, and Commissioner LeCrone needs to go. #dumplecrone
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 23, 2017, 09:21:34 AMNot everyone can take 2-3 week days off to have a spring break like you and your family. Having said that though, have a great trip to Detroit and enjoy a Valpo final.
Isn't the definition of "spring break" taking 2-3 or more week days off from work and traveling somewhere that you are excited to go to and seeing something you don't get to see very often? I guess you'll need to define what exactly what you mean by "spring break."
Just using RedHawk's term.
Quote from: valpo84 on February 23, 2017, 11:30:36 AM
In the age of ESPN3, is it time to stop sacrificing everything else for one Tuesday night game on ESPN2? Would ESPN care?
For my TV packages, ESPNU (e.g. the semi-finals) has often been _worse_ than ESPN3.
Exactly. Is it better to show a final on Tuesday with hardly anyone there or have the final on Sunday on ESPN3 and show a lively crowd that is more than just a few hundred. Demonstrate that you are achieving good attendance FIRST, then go for the increased exposure of ESPN 2.
[/quote]
In the age of the Horizon League Tourney being at home sites for many of those 20 years, it makes good sense to have on Tuesday (no competition from any other leagues regular or post-season games, pre-BIG 5 conference tourneys) and as the 7 pm prime time game. As the League has screwed that up and believes
an empty arena is better for TV, they should re-evaluate the deal. It makes the Horizon look like a lesser league and the MVC and A-10 and Big East are all into the next weekend. The Horizon needs some serious future planning and direction, and Commissioner LeCrone needs to go. #dumplecrone
[/quote]
That's a great point. A Tuesday night on-campus final would (if the #1 seed makes it that far) would be a sell-out and the place (whatever the campus location) would be rocking.
Count me out as one that thinks the championship game should be on ESPN3 instead of ESPN because it means seeing a few hundred more fans in the background.
The fans are fairly irrelevant to the equation. The league is making their money from the Detroit arena group and TV package, not raw attendance.
Quote from: a3uge on February 23, 2017, 01:30:20 PM
Count me out as one that thinks the championship game should be on ESPN3 instead of ESPN because it means seeing a few hundred more fans in the background.
The fans are fairly irrelevant to the equation. The league is making their money from the Detroit arena group and TV package, not raw attendance.
Absolutely, positively, totally true. The HL is about the money and you can't blame them. However, from a purely fan and game day experience, a weekend tournament would really be nice.
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 23, 2017, 12:47:35 PMdumplecrone
That sounds like a character from Harry Potter.
Who is the new instructor?
I believe his name is Dumple Crone
Wright state fan here. First, sorry to hear of Alec Peters injury. Hoping it's not serious! I agree with much of what was said about how it's not feasible for fans to go to the whole tournament staying in Detroit till Tuesday evening and then driving home.
Thoughts on why Detroit was chosen.
1. Large market with 2 horizon league teams in it.
2. New stadium being built that tourney moves into next year. I think this was the main reason.
3. Detroit having somewhat of a renaissance as a city on the comeback. Maybe being a part of that.
4. Fairly central location for the league.
Now my personal opinion on future potential locations...Columbus Ohio, Cincinnati, Indy?
No team is in Columbus but maybe its a town that would support it more than Detroit.
Cincinnati loves college hoops...maybe too much Xavier UC connection there?
Would have to be a weekend tourney to make sense in say Columbus. What's the need for ESPN hosting the championship game anymore? Why not nbc sports, CBS sports, American sports network?
Horizon league has had a hard time really building tradition. Butler did that but then left. There's no great rivalries, great fan bases, consistent ncaa tourney winner (after butler). I think the basketball is enjoyable and the action good enough but the league just lacks identity.
Valpo has a good brand and identity. I think your hoops facility lacks but just my Opinion!
When Milwaukee and Butler were really good I think the league was at its most exciting. Milwaukee being good would help the league. Just having even 2 consistent ncaa level temas yearly would help.
I think Wright state has dropped the ball in that regard. They have a good program but just have never been able to take that next step like a Belmont, valpo, etc. I think the hope is Nagy will take them to that level.
QuoteValpo has a good brand and identity. I think your hoops facility lacks but just my Opinion!
Thanks for stopping by and your kind words about Alec and your post... and no need to qualify, many Valpo fans think the ARC is lacking as well!
In retrospect, I kinda get the feeling that the HL wasn't really considering a neutral site at the time (not forward thinking) and was content with the campus venues. Then along came Detroit/JLA with an "offer that was hard to refu$$$$e) and the HL Office jumped at it wihout really considering alternate venues (if they went out for bid). This smells like lack of a long-term strategy. My nose also senses that this is still the case. Witness a failure of the conference to implement more stringent OOC scheduling rules. Note no ultimatms to schools that continue to be comfortable sitting at the bottom of the league an carry very low RPIs.
I think you are under playing Oakland hand in this. You didn't see ray maccullum and Detroit mercy promoting it the way Oakland and kampe were.
how about having the tournament in Chicago at the new facility near McCormick Place? nice new arena and a fun city to hang around for a few days. It could also have some impact on promoting college hoops that Chicago desperately needs.
Quote from: usc4valpo on February 25, 2017, 05:59:33 AM
how about having the tournament in Chicago at the new facility near McCormick Place? nice new arena and a fun city to hang around for a few days. It could also have some impact on promoting college hoops that Chicago desperately needs.
Not sure how the agreement is worded between McPier and DePaul on the use rights of the new McCormick Place facility. I have a feeling that McPier (the Chicago Authority that runs McCormick Place) would be in favor but that DePaul might not think it's a great idea. Maybe after the 5 years in Detroit has run it's course, UIC & Valpo together can approach McPier and work out a deal to use the facility at MP that as far as I know is half owned by McPier which is an authority granted by the Chicago City Mayor and Council which also, to a degree, represents the interests of UIC in the city in cooperation with the State of Illinois.
Appears from this article new Wintrust Arena could be rented for non-DePaul events. Looks like a cash Windfall for DePaul going forward. But they invested $82 million with McPier to become partners.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/ct-depaul-basketball-arena-met-20160303-story,amp.html
As I already pointed out, the HL tournament is only 1 of 3 neutral site tournaments in D-1 that don't finish on a Sat., Sun., or Mon. It is by design an attendance killer.
Average home attendance for a week night game probably doesn't exceed 3000. Now start subtracting. I doubt if more than a handful of students and faculty will be there. They cant even be counted on to show up to weeknight home games free of charge. Now take away all the casual fans, children in school, parents of children in school, people living pay check to pay check (a majority), people who work for large employers with prescheduled locked-in vacations for the year, low seniority workers with limited vacation time, seniors who faithfully attend home games who are on fixed incomes or who simply are not going to take 5 hour road trips, etc. Then add those who could but don't want to, and what do you have left?
Valpo and UIC voted against this move, and thus are the only 2 of 7 universities outside of the Detroit Metroplex who have a clue. The other 5 - GB, Milwaukee, WSU, CSU and YSU - supported this, and they own it.
Let's stop kidding ourselves. These 5 universities didn't vote for this because they thought their fans would flock to a single-sight tournament in Detroit, or because it makes us look more like a big boy conference, or it provides for a good bonding experience. They did it because they were jealous of 2 programs hogging all the glory for the last 15 years and continuing - first Butler and then Valpo. They did what jealous people do - they ruin things for everybody. So here we are.
Quote from: wh on February 25, 2017, 12:50:20 PM
As I already pointed out, the HL tournament is only 1 of 3 neutral site tournaments in D-1 that don't finish on a Sat., Sun., or Mon. It is by design an attendance killer.
Average home attendance for a week night game probably doesn't exceed 3000. Now start subtracting. I doubt if more than a handful of students and faculty will be there. They cant even be counted on to show up to weeknight home games free of charge. Now take away all the casual fans, children in school, parents of children in school, people living pay check to pay check (a majority), people who work for large employers with prescheduled locked-in vacations for the year, low seniority workers with limited vacation time, seniors who faithfully attend home games who are on fixed incomes or who simply are not going to take 5 hour road trips, etc. Then add those who could but don't want to, and what do you have left?
Valpo and UIC voted against this move, and thus are the only 2 of 7 universities outside of the Detroit Metroplex who have a clue. The other 5 - GB, Milwaukee, WSU, CSU and YSU - supported this, and they own it.
Let's stop kidding ourselves. These 5 universities didn't vote for this because they thought their fans would flock to a single-sight tournament in Detroit, or because it makes us look more like a big boy conference, or it provides for a good bonding experience. They did it because they were jealous of 2 programs hogging all the glory for the last 15 years and continuing - first Butler and then Valpo. They did what jealous people do - they ruin things for everybody. So here we are.
Logic checks out. I'd add that the chance for a Cinderella run through a neutral site tournament has GOT to be astronomically better. The B1G regular season champ seems rarely to win their tournament.
Was looking at MSU...
13 Regular Season Championships
2x they won season and B1G tournament title in same year
Now I suspect the HL is a little more balanced but not at par. Neutral site = the hot team wins. So why would any average HL organization vote otherwise. We lost by just allowing this to go to a vote.
Still optimistic, we had a great coming out party last night! Onward and Upward...
So the bad moves were made. I will enjoy the HL tournament as best as I possibly can in Detroit, much like we did in Tulsa and Kansas City, and hope that the HLT gets a move to Chicago, Indy, Milwaukee, etc. in the future.
Just don't be such debbie downers while the best of the situation can be made.
QuoteWe lost by just allowing this to go to a vote.
Um, Valpo can't block a vote on their own, if a proposal is presented to the league presidents. There isn't a filibuster in play here.
This squares with what I've heard, is that there were 3-4 schools very loudly griping behind the scenes to HL leadership that Valpo had too big of an advantage hosting the tourney in the years they had #1 seed. Would not be surprising if one of them happened to relay that to the folks at Olympia, which prompted the no-bid proposal. (It should be noted that the HL heard the same complaints for years about the home-court situation when Butler was dominant in the conference, however, the HL never acted on that back then, much less moved the tournament on less than a year's notice when one of their teams looked poised for an historic season).
What's done is done and we need to make the best of the situation moving forward, but no, Valpo fans should not ever really "get over it" when it comes to how this all went down. There is absolutely no reason - none - that this should not have been announced more than a year in advance so that all teams could prepare for the change (a change in venue for post-season tournaments is typically announced 2-3 years out in other conferences). It was done on the quick, very specifically, to throw a last-minute obstacle in front of last year's team, and cost us an opportunity at a season for the ages.
So, as I understand it from your post, this is the second time that Valpo got screwed over ( the first was when, I believe, a mass exodus from the Mid Continent (?) was done and Valpo was left out) by fellow members of the league to which it belonged and was contributing winning basketball. It is interesting that in both scenarios the protagonists were predominently public universities if I am not mistaken. Please correct me if that is wrong.
Back in time we discussed the merits of finding a conference with which we shared certain commonalities, i.e., private colleges, etc., etc. So we do our part coming into the HL by upgrading our MBB prorgram and start winning championship and our reward is ............
I am really thinking that we need some fresh air around here.
I bet one of the schools complaining was Oakland. They were new and not used to the winner being rewarded the tournament. They probably thought it was crazy. But they knew that's how the conference had been running it when they campaigned to get into the league.
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 25, 2017, 09:18:40 PM
So, as I understand it from your post, this is the second time that Valpo got screwed over ( the first was when, I believe, a mass exodus from the Mid Continent (?) was done and Valpo was left out) by fellow members of the league to which it belonged and was contributing winning basketball. It is interesting that in both scenarios the protagonists were predominently public universities if I am not mistaken. Please correct me if that is wrong.
Back in time we discussed the merits of finding a conference with which we shared certain commonalities, i.e., private colleges, etc., etc. So we do our part coming into the HL by upgrading our MBB prorgram and start winning championship and our reward is ............
I am really thinking that we need some fresh air around here.
Yes and no. To be fair, while Valpo was very competitive during the last years of the old Mid-Con, the years before were fairly lean in that regard. VU routinely finished last in the conference.
As far as being screwed over, I can't speak for the Athletic Department but my impression was that VU did absolutely feel screwed over back then because of the perception that some kind of back door collusion had taken place; that is, VU had been led to believe all along that the conference was stable, and then, BOOM!, six schools promptly announced their departure within a year. A few of those schools were charter members of the league (UIC, Cleveland State, UWGB) who had founded the AMCU/Mid-Con with Valpo, which rubbed salt on the wound.
It's true that the public schools led the exodus but I don't believe it was due to a private school bias so to speak. Those schools left for the MCC/Horizon League at the time, which had a few private members of their own in Butler, Loyola, Detroit, LaSalle and Notre Dame. As Valpo was the only private school in the AMCU/Mid-Con before 1994, it would have been impossible for the public schools to not have led that charge to begin with. But yes, you are right--depending on who you talk to, potentially Motor City Madness is the second time that VU was shall we say was "dis-leveraged" by conference membership.
You guys just don't get it.
- Since Butler left, the Horizon league has had the worst run ever in the NCAA Tourney. It is currently at five straight 1st NCAA round losses. 2012-2016
- This year has showed that we don't have a team capable of making a run in the tourney.
- The "Butler money" is gone. So, find me another place that will give each school $20k. no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
- You don't think ESPN had a say in this? In 2014, they had to switch locations from GB to the Nutter with only two days notice- They incurred the additional travel cost and stress of moving their "team". That expenditure may not seem like alot, but in the penny pinching corporate world it was un-budgeted.
- There are only 6 other conferences that still have their tourney at the campus sites. They are America East; Atlantic Sun; Big South; Northeast; Patriot; SWAC. Those are the conferences you want to compare the Horizon league to?
Also, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on February 26, 2017, 12:57:45 PMAlso, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?
Because we've been the toast of the conference since Butler left. In the six seasons since then, Valpo has won the conference or tied for first five times. We also had more postseason wins last year than anyone else has had. I know it was the NIT, but other teams have had opportunities and blew it. Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others:
2012: 15 Detroit lost to Kansas by 15 points (65-50)
2013: 14 Valparaiso lost to Michigan State by 11 points (65-54)
2014: 15 Milwaukee lost to Villanova by 20 points (73-53)
2015: 13 Valparaiso lost to Maryland by 3 points (65-62) (I won't mention the blown call at the end)
2016: 14 Green Bay lost to Texas A&M by 27 points (92-65), while Valpo makes a run to the NIT final.
2017: ??? I'd be surprised if anyone not named Valpo or Oakland is able to keep their game within a single digit margin.
You know this, I know this, everyone on this board knows this, but if/when we leave that will be a huge loss for the Horizon League. I know we haven't had the FF runs that Butler has had, and if we did, we'd be playing our conference tournament in St. Louis and competing for at-larges.
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 12:42:37 PMYou guys just don't get it. - Since Butler left, the Horizon league has had the worst run ever in the NCAA Tourney. It is currently at five straight 1st NCAA round losses. 2012-2016
- This year has showed that we don't have a team capable of making a run in the tourney.
- The "Butler money" is gone. So, find me another place that will give each school $20k. no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
- You don't think ESPN had a say in this? In 2014, they had to switch locations from GB to the Nutter with only two days notice- They incurred the additional travel cost and stress of moving their "team". That expenditure may not seem like alot, but in the penny pinching corporate world it was un-budgeted.
- There are only 6 other conferences that still have their tourney at the campus sites. They are America East; Atlantic Sun; Big South; Northeast; Patriot; SWAC. Those are the conferences you want to compare the Horizon league to?
A few answers to your points:
1. Yes. Five straight years. And if we keep sending middle-of-the-pack teams on a hot streak (like last year), we're going to keep losing NCAA games.
2. Debatable. I could see Oakland or a healthy Valpo making the Sweet 16. It's not
likely and wouldn't pull a ton of money, but if you want consistent deep runs, you're gonna have to start looking at the B1G.
3. I know there aren't a lot of deep pockets around, but if the HL and it's member schools are utterly reliant on consistent NCAA tournament run money, we need to do some better planning.
4. I have no doubt ESPN has had a say in the formatting (especially the days of the week it's played on), but I don't feel sorry for them one bit. The possibility of switching locations should not have taken them by surprise -- they should know the tournament venue rules before they agree to cover the game. And if they want to be sticklers about it, fine. Play the conference championship at the 1 seed venue no matter what, then they won't have to move on short notice. I know that happened in Cleveland a few years ago in front of a lot of empty seats, but guess what we're seeing in the championship game at the Joe? A lot of empty seats. So what difference does it make?
5. I've never understood the "but other conferences are doing it too!" argument. Did your mother ever ask you if all your friends were jumping off a bridge, if you'd do it as well? Neutral site works much better for high major conferences, which the HL is not. Motor City Madness does not make the HL any more like a high major than Jordan sneakers make a middle schooler play like Michael Jordan himself. As a matter of fact, a few more years of 15-seed, cannon fodder autobids from the HL are going to put us moving in the opposite direction.
The HL didn't just receive the offer from Detroit and jump at it. The league started the process of going to a neutral site over a year before it was announced. They looked at dozens of cities/venues and Detroit was the best offer. We aren't paying to rent Joe Louis Arena and we are all getting a paycheck out of it. Cities like Columbus, Chicago, and Indianapolis were available to host the tournament but none offered the HL any type of compensation and the HL would have had to pay to rent the venue.
Quote from: Big D on February 26, 2017, 03:50:28 PM
The HL didn't just receive the offer from Detroit and jump at it. The league started the process of going to a neutral site over a year before it was announced. They looked at dozens of cities/venues and Detroit was the best offer. We aren't paying to rent Joe Louis Arena and we are all getting a paycheck out of it. Cities like Columbus, Chicago, and Indianapolis were available to host the tournament but none offered the HL any type of compensation and the HL would have had to pay to rent the venue.
Are there any attendance clauses that you are aware of? Because if we guaranteed a % sellout we need a Hail Mary soon or else we might be paying rather than collecting.
https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/836004386912546816
Valpo's Alec Peters has a stress reaction and will be re-evaluated Wednesday, source told ESPN. There is optimism the star forward will play in the Horizon tourney this weekend.
http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0627657242241405653-4
It is good that we sat him over the last 2 games, even though it allowed Oakland to share the title. A stress reaction is much better than a stress fracture.
Stress reaction? Is this a reaction to normal stress?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Perhaps next year, if the IPFW things gets ironed out, there will be changes in the Summit League...I don't believe Ft. Wayne will remain a Div. 1 school after the "breakup" on their campus. Beginning in "18, the school will have a Purdue identity, no more IU affiliation. Could changes there have an effect on the HL?
https://twitter.com/RotoWireCBB/status/836007893421916160
RotoWire is calling it a stress fracture but I trust Goodman's report over theirs.
Like many of us probably thought, they are just assuming that saying 'reaction' was an error. Who would have known that a stress reaction is the predecessor to a stress fracture?
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 26, 2017, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on February 26, 2017, 12:57:45 PMAlso, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?
Because we've been the toast of the conference since Butler left. In the six seasons since then, Valpo has won the conference or tied for first five times. We also had more postseason wins last year than anyone else has had. I know it was the NIT, but other teams have had opportunities and blew it. Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others:
2012: 15 Detroit lost to Kansas by 15 points (65-50)
2013: 14 Valparaiso lost to Michigan State by 11 points (65-54)
2014: 15 Milwaukee lost to Villanova by 20 points (73-53)
2015: 13 Valparaiso lost to Maryland by 3 points (65-62) (I won't mention the blown call at the end)
2016: 14 Green Bay lost to Texas A&M by 27 points (92-65), while Valpo makes a run to the NIT final.
2017: ??? I'd be surprised if anyone not named Valpo or Oakland is able to keep their game within a single digit margin.
You know this, I know this, everyone on this board knows this, but if/when we leave that will be a huge loss for the Horizon League. I know we haven't had the FF runs that Butler has had, and if we did, we'd be playing our conference tournament in St. Louis and competing for at-larges.
"Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others"
So what? Using your twisted logic, I could argue the following:
2012 - Detroit loses to Kansas by 15, but Kansas' next loss wasn't until the final game. Hey, Detroit beats Kansas and they are playing Kentucky for the championship
2013 - Valpo loses to MSU by 11, but MSU didn't get past the Sweet Sixteen, so your loss is worse than Detroit in 2012.
2014 - Milw lost to Villanova, but Villanova would lose their next game to UConn (Champ) the next game.
2015 - Valpo loses to Maryland, who would then lose their next game to West Virgina, who would then lose their next game to Kentucky, who would then only make it to the Final four.
So, by six degrees of Kevin Bacon, your two losses are both worse than Detroit AND Milw. Neither team you lost to played either team in the Final game.
There is a reason no other conference is calling for Valpo. You are not as good as you think.
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 07:48:38 PM
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 26, 2017, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on February 26, 2017, 12:57:45 PMAlso, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?
Because we've been the toast of the conference since Butler left. In the six seasons since then, Valpo has won the conference or tied for first five times. We also had more postseason wins last year than anyone else has had. I know it was the NIT, but other teams have had opportunities and blew it. Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others:
2012: 15 Detroit lost to Kansas by 15 points (65-50)
2013: 14 Valparaiso lost to Michigan State by 11 points (65-54)
2014: 15 Milwaukee lost to Villanova by 20 points (73-53)
2015: 13 Valparaiso lost to Maryland by 3 points (65-62) (I won't mention the blown call at the end)
2016: 14 Green Bay lost to Texas A&M by 27 points (92-65), while Valpo makes a run to the NIT final.
2017: ??? I'd be surprised if anyone not named Valpo or Oakland is able to keep their game within a single digit margin.
You know this, I know this, everyone on this board knows this, but if/when we leave that will be a huge loss for the Horizon League. I know we haven't had the FF runs that Butler has had, and if we did, we'd be playing our conference tournament in St. Louis and competing for at-larges.
"Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others"
So what? Using your twisted logic, I could argue the following:
2012 - Detroit loses to Kansas by 15, but Kansas' next loss wasn't until the final game. Hey, Detroit beats Kansas and they are playing Kentucky for the championship
2013 - Valpo loses to MSU by 11, but MSU didn't get past the Sweet Sixteen, so your loss is worse than Detroit in 2012.
2014 - Milw lost to Villanova, but Villanova would lose their next game to UConn (Champ) the next game.
2015 - Valpo loses to Maryland, who would then lose their next game to West Virgina, who would then lose their next game to Kentucky, who would then only make it to the Final four.
So, by six degrees of Kevin Bacon, your two losses are both worse than Detroit AND Milw. Neither team you lost to played either team in the Final game.
There is a reason no other conference is calling for Valpo. You are not as good as you think.
You're right....we're better.
Do any of us troll on OU or UDM forums? AKA who is leading the bottom feeders from other teams to our forum?
Quote from: VU2014 on February 26, 2017, 06:09:03 PM
https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/836004386912546816
Valpo's Alec Peters has a stress reaction and will be re-evaluated Wednesday, source told ESPN. There is optimism the star forward will play in the Horizon tourney this weekend.
http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0627657242241405653-4
Stress Reaction: Will heal fully with 2 weeks complete rest. Soft spot on the bone, no Crack yet.
Stress Fracture: 6 full weeks off for full recovery. Bone is cracked.
In both cases you can baby the bone through the end of the season. Usually no more than 2 days a week of impact drills. Basically giving the bone 3-4 days no impact after a stressful day.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on February 26, 2017, 08:00:12 PMStress Reaction: Will heal fully with 2 weeks complete rest. Soft spot on the bone, no Crack yet.
Stress Fracture: 6 full weeks off for full recovery. Bone is cracked.
In both cases you can baby the bone through the end of the season. Usually no more than 2 days a week of impact drills. Basically giving the bone 3-4 days no impact after a stressful day.
Got it. So now all we have to do is get the HL and JLA to agree to a Friday, Saturday, Wednesday, Sunday format. ;)
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 07:48:38 PM
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 26, 2017, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on February 26, 2017, 12:57:45 PMAlso, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?
Because we've been the toast of the conference since Butler left. In the six seasons since then, Valpo has won the conference or tied for first five times. We also had more postseason wins last year than anyone else has had. I know it was the NIT, but other teams have had opportunities and blew it. Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others:
2012: 15 Detroit lost to Kansas by 15 points (65-50)
2013: 14 Valparaiso lost to Michigan State by 11 points (65-54)
2014: 15 Milwaukee lost to Villanova by 20 points (73-53)
2015: 13 Valparaiso lost to Maryland by 3 points (65-62) (I won't mention the blown call at the end)
2016: 14 Green Bay lost to Texas A&M by 27 points (92-65), while Valpo makes a run to the NIT final.
2017: ??? I'd be surprised if anyone not named Valpo or Oakland is able to keep their game within a single digit margin.
You know this, I know this, everyone on this board knows this, but if/when we leave that will be a huge loss for the Horizon League. I know we haven't had the FF runs that Butler has had, and if we did, we'd be playing our conference tournament in St. Louis and competing for at-larges.
"Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others"
So what? Using your twisted logic, I could argue the following:
2012 - Detroit loses to Kansas by 15, but Kansas' next loss wasn't until the final game. Hey, Detroit beats Kansas and they are playing Kentucky for the championship
2013 - Valpo loses to MSU by 11, but MSU didn't get past the Sweet Sixteen, so your loss is worse than Detroit in 2012.
2014 - Milw lost to Villanova, but Villanova would lose their next game to UConn (Champ) the next game.
2015 - Valpo loses to Maryland, who would then lose their next game to West Virgina, who would then lose their next game to Kentucky, who would then only make it to the Final four.
So, by six degrees of Kevin Bacon, your two losses are both worse than Detroit AND Milw. Neither team you lost to played either team in the Final game.
There is a reason no other conference is calling for Valpo. You are not as good as you think.
The problem isn't that Valpo has become too good for the conference... It's that too many teams like Detroit consistently suck and drag the league down.
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 26, 2017, 03:09:55 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 12:42:37 PMYou guys just don't get it. - Since Butler left, the Horizon league has had the worst run ever in the NCAA Tourney. It is currently at five straight 1st NCAA round losses. 2012-2016
- This year has showed that we don't have a team capable of making a run in the tourney.
- The "Butler money" is gone. So, find me another place that will give each school $20k. no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
- You don't think ESPN had a say in this? In 2014, they had to switch locations from GB to the Nutter with only two days notice- They incurred the additional travel cost and stress of moving their "team". That expenditure may not seem like alot, but in the penny pinching corporate world it was un-budgeted.
- There are only 6 other conferences that still have their tourney at the campus sites. They are America East; Atlantic Sun; Big South; Northeast; Patriot; SWAC. Those are the conferences you want to compare the Horizon league to?
A few answers to your points:
1. Yes. Five straight years. And if we keep sending middle-of-the-pack teams on a hot streak (like last year), we're going to keep losing NCAA games.
2. Debatable. I could see Oakland or a healthy Valpo making the Sweet 16. It's not likely and wouldn't pull a ton of money, but if you want consistent deep runs, you're gonna have to start looking at the B1G.
3. I know there aren't a lot of deep pockets around, but if the HL and it's member schools are utterly reliant on consistent NCAA tournament run money, we need to do some better planning.
4. I have no doubt ESPN has had a say in the formatting (especially the days of the week it's played on), but I don't feel sorry for them one bit. The possibility of switching locations should not have taken them by surprise -- they should know the tournament venue rules before they agree to cover the game. And if they want to be sticklers about it, fine. Play the conference championship at the 1 seed venue no matter what, then they won't have to move on short notice. I know that happened in Cleveland a few years ago in front of a lot of empty seats, but guess what we're seeing in the championship game at the Joe? A lot of empty seats. So what difference does it make?
5. I've never understood the "but other conferences are doing it too!" argument. Did your mother ever ask you if all your friends were jumping off a bridge, if you'd do it as well? Neutral site works much better for high major conferences, which the HL is not. Motor City Madness does not make the HL any more like a high major than Jordan sneakers make a middle schooler play like Michael Jordan himself. As a matter of fact, a few more years of 15-seed, cannon fodder autobids from the HL are going to put us moving in the opposite direction.
- We sent only two middle of the pack teams in 5 years. The other three teams failed (Detroit once, Valpo twice.
- At this point it is debatable, i would love to be wrong, but both teams lost to several inferior teams.
- It's $100k of free money per year. Someone is paying for you to come play. Quit being a bunch of whiny babies. You want to be in a 'bigger conference" then act like it.
- The difference is the cost to them to have to make travel arrangements(flight, hotels, etc). That is a huge cost to them. They control the tv games they have with us. That's the difference it makes.
- If all my friends were from the America East; Atlantic Sun; Big South; Northeast; Patriot; SWAC, then no. :lol: There are 32 conferences in D1. Only those lower six are doing exactly what you are wanting to do. Your argument is conflicting- you say you want to leave and play your tourney in St. Louis, but then you say we should have it at some high school sized gyms? FYI, the Horizon has been moving in the opposite direction, that is my whole point. Last year, Middle Tenn State beat heavily favored MSU. quit making "seed" excuses
Perhaps the team could get to the tournament finals without Peters, and he could return for the final game in the manner of Willis Reed in the 7th game of the NBA finals! [An allusion to one of the favorite sports memories in my childhood.]
Quote from: a3uge on February 26, 2017, 08:21:10 PM
The problem isn't that Valpo has become too good for the conference... It's that too many teams like Detroit consistently suck and drag the league down.
Then why haven't you gone undefeated and won at least one 1st round game?
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on February 26, 2017, 07:59:39 PM
Do any of us troll on OU or UDM forums? AKA who is leading the bottom feeders from other teams to our forum?
Easy. Motowntitan is a respected member of the loyal opposition - not a troll. Legit visitors are always welcome to present opposing views. :)
Quote from: wh on February 26, 2017, 08:26:57 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on February 26, 2017, 07:59:39 PM
Do any of us troll on OU or UDM forums? AKA who is leading the bottom feeders from other teams to our forum?
Easy. Motowntitan is a respected member of the loyal opposition - not a troll. Legit visitors are always welcome to present opposing views. :)
You may feel that way, I respectfully do not. This is a VU fan forum, not a place to worry about any team but our own. I don't touch other fans' forums because I couldn't care less about their gripes.
I'm worried about us getting better and taking our team dancing.
Quote from: wh on February 26, 2017, 08:26:57 PMEasy. Motowntitan is a respected member of the loyal opposition - not a troll. Legit visitors are always welcome to present opposing views.
Quote from: valpopal on February 26, 2017, 08:24:13 PMPerhaps the team could get to the tournament finals without Peters, and he could return for the final game in the manner of Willis Reed in the 7th game of the NBA finals!
Not trying to egg on a rivalry argument but Detroit could be our first opponent and I could imagine Matt trying to sit Alec for much or all of that contest. Maybe he could dress Alec and tell the team that he will play no more than the last 5 minutes and the rest is up to them.
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 08:25:43 PM
Quote from: a3uge on February 26, 2017, 08:21:10 PM
The problem isn't that Valpo has become too good for the conference... It's that too many teams like Detroit consistently suck and drag the league down.
Then why haven't you gone undefeated and won at least one 1st round game?
We can't complain about teams in the conference winning only one game out of conference until we go undefeated and win in the first round?
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 07:48:38 PM
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 26, 2017, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on February 26, 2017, 12:57:45 PMAlso, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?
Because we've been the toast of the conference since Butler left. In the six seasons since then, Valpo has won the conference or tied for first five times. We also had more postseason wins last year than anyone else has had. I know it was the NIT, but other teams have had opportunities and blew it. Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others:
2012: 15 Detroit lost to Kansas by 15 points (65-50)
2013: 14 Valparaiso lost to Michigan State by 11 points (65-54)
2014: 15 Milwaukee lost to Villanova by 20 points (73-53)
2015: 13 Valparaiso lost to Maryland by 3 points (65-62) (I won't mention the blown call at the end)
2016: 14 Green Bay lost to Texas A&M by 27 points (92-65), while Valpo makes a run to the NIT final.
2017: ??? I'd be surprised if anyone not named Valpo or Oakland is able to keep their game within a single digit margin.
You know this, I know this, everyone on this board knows this, but if/when we leave that will be a huge loss for the Horizon League. I know we haven't had the FF runs that Butler has had, and if we did, we'd be playing our conference tournament in St. Louis and competing for at-larges.
"Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others"
So what? Using your twisted logic, I could argue the following:
2012 - Detroit loses to Kansas by 15, but Kansas' next loss wasn't until the final game. Hey, Detroit beats Kansas and they are playing Kentucky for the championship
2013 - Valpo loses to MSU by 11, but MSU didn't get past the Sweet Sixteen, so your loss is worse than Detroit in 2012.
2014 - Milw lost to Villanova, but Villanova would lose their next game to UConn (Champ) the next game.
2015 - Valpo loses to Maryland, who would then lose their next game to West Virgina, who would then lose their next game to Kentucky, who would then only make it to the Final four.
So, by six degrees of Kevin Bacon, your two losses are both worse than Detroit AND Milw. Neither team you lost to played either team in the Final game.
There is a reason no other conference is calling for Valpo. You are not as good as you think.
It's a good thing that we know that we are much better than Detroit ;). The only thing that you guys have going for you when it comes to the potential of moving leagues, is that you reside in a large city. You have nothing else to offer...whereas, we have a sh!+ ton of championship banners hanging in our gym, with 13-14 regular season titles and 9 NCAA trips in the last 22 years...***drop mic***
Quote from: wh on February 26, 2017, 08:26:57 PMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on February 26, 2017, 07:59:39 PMDo any of us troll on OU or UDM forums? AKA who is leading the bottom feeders from other teams to our forum?
Easy. Motowntitan is a respected member of the loyal opposition - not a troll. Legit visitors are always welcome to present opposing views. :)
I don't mind him presenting opposing views, but the "you guys just don't get it" and "whiny babies" remarks are uncalled for.
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 08:22:21 PMQuote from: hailcrusaders on February 26, 2017, 03:09:55 PMQuote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 12:42:37 PMYou guys just don't get it. - Since Butler left, the Horizon league has had the worst run ever in the NCAA Tourney. It is currently at five straight 1st NCAA round losses. 2012-2016
- This year has showed that we don't have a team capable of making a run in the tourney.
- The "Butler money" is gone. So, find me another place that will give each school $20k. no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
- You don't think ESPN had a say in this? In 2014, they had to switch locations from GB to the Nutter with only two days notice- They incurred the additional travel cost and stress of moving their "team". That expenditure may not seem like alot, but in the penny pinching corporate world it was un-budgeted.
- There are only 6 other conferences that still have their tourney at the campus sites. They are America East; Atlantic Sun; Big South; Northeast; Patriot; SWAC. Those are the conferences you want to compare the Horizon league to?
A few answers to your points: 1. Yes. Five straight years. And if we keep sending middle-of-the-pack teams on a hot streak (like last year), we're going to keep losing NCAA games. 2. Debatable. I could see Oakland or a healthy Valpo making the Sweet 16. It's not likely and wouldn't pull a ton of money, but if you want consistent deep runs, you're gonna have to start looking at the B1G. 3. I know there aren't a lot of deep pockets around, but if the HL and it's member schools are utterly reliant on consistent NCAA tournament run money, we need to do some better planning. 4. I have no doubt ESPN has had a say in the formatting (especially the days of the week it's played on), but I don't feel sorry for them one bit. The possibility of switching locations should not have taken them by surprise -- they should know the tournament venue rules before they agree to cover the game. And if they want to be sticklers about it, fine. Play the conference championship at the 1 seed venue no matter what, then they won't have to move on short notice. I know that happened in Cleveland a few years ago in front of a lot of empty seats, but guess what we're seeing in the championship game at the Joe? A lot of empty seats. So what difference does it make? 5. I've never understood the "but other conferences are doing it too!" argument. Did your mother ever ask you if all your friends were jumping off a bridge, if you'd do it as well? Neutral site works much better for high major conferences, which the HL is not. Motor City Madness does not make the HL any more like a high major than Jordan sneakers make a middle schooler play like Michael Jordan himself. As a matter of fact, a few more years of 15-seed, cannon fodder autobids from the HL are going to put us moving in the opposite direction.
- We sent only two middle of the pack teams in 5 years. The other three teams failed (Detroit once, Valpo twice.
- At this point it is debatable, i would love to be wrong, but both teams lost to several inferior teams.
- It's $100k of free money per year. Someone is paying for you to come play. Quit being a bunch of whiny babies. You want to be in a 'bigger conference" then act like it.
- The difference is the cost to them to have to make travel arrangements(flight, hotels, etc). That is a huge cost to them. They control the tv games they have with us. That's the difference it makes.
- If all my friends were from the America East; Atlantic Sun; Big South; Northeast; Patriot; SWAC, then no. :lol: There are 32 conferences in D1. Only those lower six are doing exactly what you are wanting to do. Your argument is conflicting- you say you want to leave and play your tourney in St. Louis, but then you say we should have it at some high school sized gyms? FYI, the Horizon has been moving in the opposite direction, that is my whole point. Last year, Middle Tenn State beat heavily favored MSU. quit making "seed" excuses
1. That's the whole point. At the four high-seed hosted tournaments since Butler's FF runs, the high-seed won twice, the 3 seed once, and the 5 seed once. That's three out of four tournaments won by top-tier HL teams, two of four by the top seed. Only once did a sub-.500 team win the tournament. Last year, at the Joe, an average Green Bay team caught a hot streak, won the tournament, but got curb stomped in the Dance and made the HL look bad. That's going to happen more often if we play a neutral site tournament. A high seed host emphasizes winning in the HL regular season and makes it easier for the top seed to win and make a respectable showing in the NCAAs.
2. I think this one is subjective, but if you look at double-digit seeds that historically made the Sweet 16, I think you'll find quite a few of them lost to a mediocre team or two in the regular season. There's a reason they're double digit seeds.
3. I'm trying to think beyond money, more about wins. Prioritizing money over postseason wins is why Oakland would schedule a ridiculous amount of road games against elite teams in past years -- they'd make a lot of money on it, but come out with a horrible OOC winning percentage, which would wreck their own RPI and screw over the other teams in the conference who had to play them twice and ruin their own RPIs. Oakland's gotten better about it, but the point is that you can't prioritize money over wins and expect to succeed.
4. Like I said, play the championship at the high seed's court no matter what then. It may be a little empty if the high seed falls early, but that's less likely if they're playing on their home court. It was pretty empty at the Joe last year anyway (no, I don't believe the announced attendance totals were accurate to the number of people actually there, so spare me that one). The media won't have to travel at the last minute.
5. My point with the St. Louis comment was that if we were in the Valley, we would have a realistic shot of an at-large on a good year because we would be playing Wichita State, Ill. St., and UNI twice a year instead of RPI killers at the basement of the Horizon (I won't name any names). Our postseason fate wouldn't depend solely on the conference tournament as it effectively does now.
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 07:48:38 PMThere is a reason no other conference is calling for Valpo. You are not as good as you think.
There is much truth to that statement as far as this message board goes.
Quote from: valpotx on February 26, 2017, 09:31:48 PMIt's a good thing that we know that we are much better than Detroit . The only thing that you guys have going for you when it comes to the potential of moving leagues, is that you reside in a large city. You have nothing else to offer...whereas, we have a sh!+ ton of championship banners hanging in our gym, with 13-14 regular season titles and 9 NCAA trips in the last 22 years...***drop mic***
At the end of the day that is not a reason for another conference to covet Valpo. This plays right into motowntitan's point.
bbtds,
You make a couple of decent points but you forget how big consistency is to mid major conferences. While we may not be as good as we think we are, how many years in the past 25 were we an outright embarrassment and RPI drain to our conference? Last season's failure to secure an at large was ultimately our fault, but a case could (and had been) made that the complacency and low standards of Youngstown State, Cleveland State, and Detroit (who let Ray linger on far too long), that cost us that addition RPI boost we needed. But again, it really is a moot point. Barring a large conference shake up, only the MVC makes sense, and they only call us when WSU leaves. At which point it's hardly worth the move.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on February 27, 2017, 07:06:07 AM
bbtds,
You make a couple of decent points but you forget how big consistency is to mid major conferences. While we may not be as good as we think we are, how many years in the past 25 were we an outright embarrassment and RPI drain to our conference? Last season's failure to secure an at large was ultimately our fault, but a case could (and had been) made that the complacency and low standards of Youngstown State, Cleveland State, and Detroit (who let Ray linger on far too long), that cost us that addition RPI boost we needed. But again, it really is a moot point. Barring a large conference shake up, only the MVC makes sense, and they only call us when WSU leaves. At which point it's hardly worth the move.
Yes, the complacency and low standards of Youngstown State, Cleveland State (this could be argued because CSU recruited well but the student athletes left for bigger programs) and Detroit Mercy did cost Valpo RPI points and possibly a spot in the NCAA tournament. But they didn't cost Valpo a move to the MVC. The lower end of the HL had nothing to do with a possible MVC move. The lower end of the HL had nothing to do with Butler's move to the A-10/Big East.
Quote from: valpotx on February 26, 2017, 09:31:48 PM
It's a good thing that we know that we are much better than Detroit ;). The only thing that you guys have going for you when it comes to the potential of moving leagues, is that you reside in a large city. You have nothing else to offer...whereas, we have a sh!+ ton of championship banners hanging in our gym, with 13-14 regular season titles and 9 NCAA trips in the last 22 years...***drop mic***
Nicely stated. Valpo is clearly the league's best program ... the HL should be making it easier for Valpo to win the tournament, not harder (which they've done with MCM and new format).
Geez, between Grizz and this guy I'm beginning to think the Detroit schools have a complex.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on February 26, 2017, 07:59:39 PM
Do any of us troll on OU or UDM forums? AKA who is leading the bottom feeders from other teams to our forum?
For your information, these "trolls" have been on this forum long before this and for the most part are pretty well respected. Hearing the other side of the argument is often a good thing.
I guess wh already said this, but I also think the snarky comments were started by some of our comments not theirs.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/2/27/14745682/2017-horizon-league-tournament-bracket-oakland-overtakes-valpo-on-the-leagues-final-day
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/836268161829908480
2017 Horizon League Tournament Bracket: Oakland overtakes Valpo on the league's final day
Last year Green Bay shocked everyone. Could another challenger rise up or will the favorites hold serve?
by Andrew Evans@andyevans16 Feb 27, 2017, 9:30am PST
Oakland entered Sunday's action needing both a win and a Valparaiso loss to claim a share of the Horizon League regular season title and the No. 1 seed at Motor City Madness.
They got exactly what they wanted.
Valparaiso came into the final weekend of regular season play clinging to a one-game lead over Oakland. The Crusaders dealt a serious blow on Friday night when it was revealed Alec Peters had suffered a leg injury and would be day-to-day. They managed to defeat Wright State without Peters on Friday night. But, they were not so lucky on Sunday afternoon, falling to Northern Kentucky by a final of 82-78.
The Valparaiso loss opened the door for Oakland to sneak into a first place tie. The Golden Grizzlies took advantage of the opportunity, defeating Milwaukee 86-75 behind Sherron Dorsey-Walker's eight three-pointers. The win also secured the top seed in the Horizon League Tournament as a result of Oakland's regular season sweep of Valparaiso.
Oakland appears to have moved beyond their late January struggles. Between Jan. 13th and 27th, the Golden Grizzlies dropped four of five games and were on the brink of falling out of the conference title race. Since then, they ripped off nine consecutive wins and roll into the Horizon League Tournament on a hot streak. Given the way they handled Valparaiso with relative ease both times they met, the Golden Grizzlies should be favored if the two meet again in the conference championship game.
Valparaiso, on the other hand, enters the tournament facing a great deal of uncertainty. The injury to Peters will be a major factor. While the Crusaders fared well without Peters this past weekend on the offensive end, they may not go far without his firepower.
Given the events of last year's tournament, it would be a mistake to only focus on the top two seeds. A year ago, fourth-seeded Green Bay surprised everyone to win the inaugural Motor City Madness. The same could happen again if Oakland goes cold and Valparaiso is without Peters.
Leading the contenders from the rest of pack is repeat-minded Green Bay. The Phoenix hold wins over both Oakland and Valparaiso. Furthermore, they have last year's experience under their belt.
.....
Give the rest a click/read
I still give Valpo a good chance especially if Alec is healthy and ready to play.
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 12:42:37 PM
You guys just don't get it.
- The "Butler money" is gone. So, find me another place that will give each school $20k. no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
In all due respect, 20K is pocket change. That's just LeCrone telling the sponsors they have to give him a bone to throw to the programs to help seal the deal. If someone needs 20K that bad, schedule a throw away game with a top Major and make 4-5 times that much. Heck, a group of us ran a golf tournament for charity a few years ago that made 80K and a Smoker that netted 65K. 20K - give me a break.
Quote from: wh on February 27, 2017, 04:58:23 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 12:42:37 PM
You guys just don't get it.
- The "Butler money" is gone. So, find me another place that will give each school $20k. no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
In all due respect, 20K is pocket change. That's just LeCrone telling the sponsors they have to give him a bone to throw to the programs to help seal the deal. If someone needs 20K that bad, schedule a throw away game with a top Major and make 4-5 times that much. Heck, a group of us ran a golf tournament for charity a few years ago that made 80K and a Smoker that netted 65K. 20K - give me a break.
Valpo wouldn't even need to do that. Schedule the worst FBS football team on the face of the planet and VU would probably get 10 times that amount to go to their place, at a minimum. I suppose motowntitan makes a point in that it is better to earn $20K than to not earn or to lose $20K but you are right wh, in the whole scheme of things $20K isn't a lot of money athletically speaking.
I actually like the logic of rewarding top finishes with extra perks in conference tournament ... up to a point:
1. The 2 seed has always gotten screwed in the old format - no home games unless #1 loses in semis
2. There's just a bit of a small-sample size problem that ruins it all for me - 18 games is nowhere near enough to decide who the best team is, at least not enough to go around handing out a double-bye AND home court advantage.
My problem with the previous format is purely philosophical. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Valpo host 3 out of 4 years, you can count on that. But I also hated the first round. I am in that small minority that is not the least bit interested in sitting at home and watching these games on TV or my computer (and especially trying to watch 4 games at once on Tuesday night - go away with that crap).
If I had my druthers, I'd put the tournament where no team's fanbase would have a travel advantage, but it'll never happen, and I don't care enough about the "injustice" to get upset about it. I thoroughly enjoyed the tournament last year, except for the double-bye which I also have always viewed as excessive. Of course it was a bummer that we lost, but overall I thought it was a great tournament.
It should be noted that I don't care what it looked like on TV or how many fans were in attendance. Those are other people's problems, not mine. I go to watch 5-on-5, not the fans.
If we could definitively prove who the best team in the conference is, then I would be against the conference tournament and for just sending that team. All of which is to say that I think this "rewarding" the best team idea is ridiculous. We have conference tournaments precisely because we don't know who the best team is. If we knew who it was, we wouldn't need the tournament.
The fact is, it's always going to be in a city with close ties to one or more HL schools. And jealousy swings both ways (technically it's the haves who are "jealous"; the have nots are "envious") - if Oakland had been the standard bearer for 4 years and was looking at building a dynasty and suddenly the HL office decided to move to a neutral site somewhere in Chicago, the Oakland fan base would include plenty of whiners who sound just like we do -- and we'd be over there telling *them* to grow a pair.
I understand the frustration. I felt a bit of it too when the shift was announced, even as I agreed with the move. Fans who are used to winning get like this. It happens everywhere. Fans who are constantly chasing winning teams think those fans are the absolute worst in the world.
And it's all relative.
I heard about the insanity going on over here from an Oakland fan I interact with on twitter. And I told him this is a common phenomenon in sports. I get twitchy anytime I perceive that a fanbase is being singled out. I live in St. Louis and root for the Cardinals, so I've had some experience with this. As if no other fanbases have their fair share of racist, homophobic fans like Cardinals fans do (Please).
I like the new setup. I like it as a basketball junkie - I think being at the game beats watching it on TV to the nth degree. I like it from a competitive standpoint.
And I also think that the problems the HL face, while somewhat self-inflicted, are also problems shared by the lower 26 entirely and need to be solved at the NCAA level rather than by us using gimmicks as band-aids. I'd like to see the NCAA reform non-conference scheduling and do something about all the power conference snow-flakes and their politically correct scheduling. They hold the rest of us in chains in November and December and we end up fighting over the at-large scraps that fall from the master's table. Deplorable. Sad!
https://twitter.com/MattSBN/status/836604413556948995
Not the goal but just saw this
Quote from: StlVUFan on February 28, 2017, 09:57:39 AMIf I had my druthers, I'd put the tournament where no team's fanbase would have a travel advantage
Simple answer go to Las Vegas. They already have the PAC-12, MWC, WCC and WAC. They could easily fit us in.
Quote from: IndyValpo on February 28, 2017, 10:54:36 AMQuote from: StlVUFan on February 28, 2017, 09:57:39 AMIf I had my druthers, I'd put the tournament where no team's fanbase would have a travel advantage
Simple answer go to Las Vegas. They already have the PAC-12, MWC, WCC and WAC. They could easily fit us in.
I'm reminded of the Big Sky, who has their conference tournament in Reno, NV, even though there isn't a singe Big Sky team in Nevada and the conference powers (Weber St, Montana) have 10 hour drives from campus just to get there. That said, it isn't well attended and I think it's in the best interest of the conference (any conference) to have as many interested fans at the tournament as possible.
Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 28, 2017, 01:21:58 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on February 28, 2017, 10:54:36 AMQuote from: StlVUFan on February 28, 2017, 09:57:39 AMIf I had my druthers, I'd put the tournament where no team's fanbase would have a travel advantage
Simple answer go to Las Vegas. They already have the PAC-12, MWC, WCC and WAC. They could easily fit us in.
I'm reminded of the Big Sky, who has their conference tournament in Reno, NV, even though there isn't a singe Big Sky team in Nevada and the conference powers (Weber St, Montana) have 10 hour drives from campus just to get there. That said, it isn't well attended and I think it's in the best interest of the conference (any conference) to have as many interested fans at the tournament as possible.
Hence, you go where someone wants you. Olympia wanted us, they ponied up (I guess), so that's where it is.
Quote from: StlVUFan on February 28, 2017, 09:57:39 AM
I actually like the logic of rewarding top finishes with extra perks in conference tournament ... up to a point:
1. The 2 seed has always gotten screwed in the old format - no home games unless #1 loses in semis
2. There's just a bit of a small-sample size problem that ruins it all for me - 18 games is nowhere near enough to decide who the best team is, at least not enough to go around handing out a double-bye AND home court advantage.
My problem with the previous format is purely philosophical. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Valpo host 3 out of 4 years, you can count on that. But I also hated the first round. I am in that small minority that is not the least bit interested in sitting at home and watching these games on TV or my computer (and especially trying to watch 4 games at once on Tuesday night - go away with that crap).
If I had my druthers, I'd put the tournament where no team's fanbase would have a travel advantage, but it'll never happen, and I don't care enough about the "injustice" to get upset about it. I thoroughly enjoyed the tournament last year, except for the double-bye which I also have always viewed as excessive. Of course it was a bummer that we lost, but overall I thought it was a great tournament.
It should be noted that I don't care what it looked like on TV or how many fans were in attendance. Those are other people's problems, not mine. I go to watch 5-on-5, not the fans.
If we could definitively prove who the best team in the conference is, then I would be against the conference tournament and for just sending that team. All of which is to say that I think this "rewarding" the best team idea is ridiculous. We have conference tournaments precisely because we don't know who the best team is. If we knew who it was, we wouldn't need the tournament.
The fact is, it's always going to be in a city with close ties to one or more HL schools. And jealousy swings both ways (technically it's the haves who are "jealous"; the have nots are "envious") - if Oakland had been the standard bearer for 4 years and was looking at building a dynasty and suddenly the HL office decided to move to a neutral site somewhere in Chicago, the Oakland fan base would include plenty of whiners who sound just like we do -- and we'd be over there telling *them* to grow a pair.
I understand the frustration. I felt a bit of it too when the shift was announced, even as I agreed with the move. Fans who are used to winning get like this. It happens everywhere. Fans who are constantly chasing winning teams think those fans are the absolute worst in the world.
And it's all relative.
I heard about the insanity going on over here from an Oakland fan I interact with on twitter. And I told him this is a common phenomenon in sports. I get twitchy anytime I perceive that a fanbase is being singled out. I live in St. Louis and root for the Cardinals, so I've had some experience with this. As if no other fanbases have their fair share of racist, homophobic fans like Cardinals fans do (Please).
I like the new setup. I like it as a basketball junkie - I think being at the game beats watching it on TV to the nth degree. I like it from a competitive standpoint.
And I also think that the problems the HL face, while somewhat self-inflicted, are also problems shared by the lower 26 entirely and need to be solved at the NCAA level rather than by us using gimmicks as band-aids. I'd like to see the NCAA reform non-conference scheduling and do something about all the power conference snow-flakes and their politically correct scheduling. They hold the rest of us in chains in November and December and we end up fighting over the at-large scraps that fall from the master's table. Deplorable. Sad!
I understand your point, but I disagree with your statement that the tournament decides who the "best" team is. Or that an 18 game regular season is a small sample size, but a few games on a neutral court isn't, and decides ultimately who the best team is. I think it's a little absurd to think Green Bay was the best team in the league last year because they shot really well vs Valpo in one game. Green Bay was 1-2 vs Valpo and significantly behind them in pretty much every metric that ranks teams.
The moral game with an even playing field is nice and all, but mid majors aren't given a fair shake. Vanderbilt can lose to a crappy SEC bottom feeder in their tournament, but a good mid major can't lose at all. Ultimately the SEC program can get away with losing in the first round of their conference, but it's still all roses on selection Sunday. And hey, when they put on a pathetic show on national TV, they can always pouch a top mid major basketball coach from a team that did more with way less.
For the good of the conference, I could care less about playing fair, and leveling the teams out. The conference goes as the best teams go. Without NCAA tournament wins, there's not much sell to the conference, and I'm still trying to grasp why it's in the best interest of the conference to level things out again.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMI understand your point, but I disagree with your statement that the tournament decides who the "best" team is.
I never said that. Tournament decides the champion, not who the best team is. There is no way to determine who the best team is. That's my whole point.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMOr that an 18 game regular season is a small sample size, but a few games on a neutral court isn't, and decides ultimately who the best team is.
Once again, never said either of those things.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMI think it's a little absurd to think Green Bay was the best team in the league last year because they shot really well vs Valpo in one game. Green Bay was 1-2 vs Valpo and significantly behind them in pretty much every metric that ranks teams.
Green Bay wasn't the best team last year. They were the champion.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMThe moral game with an even playing field is nice and all, but mid majors aren't given a fair shake.
Vanderbilt can lose to a crappy SEC bottom feeder in their tournament, but a good mid major can't lose at all. Ultimately the SEC program can get away with losing in the first round of their conference, but it's still all roses on selection Sunday. And hey, when they put on a pathetic show on national TV, they can always pouch a top mid major basketball coach from a team that did more with way less.
Now you're just stealing my rant.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMFor the good of the conference, I could care less about playing fair, and leveling the teams out. The conference goes as the best teams go. Without NCAA tournament wins, there's not much sell to the conference, and I'm still trying to grasp why it's in the best interest of the conference to level things out again.
Once again: for the purpose of this debate, we don't know with high enough confidence who the best team is. And again, if we did, I would be against having a conference tournament at all.
Quote from: wh on February 27, 2017, 04:58:23 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on February 26, 2017, 12:42:37 PM
You guys just don't get it.
- The "Butler money" is gone. So, find me another place that will give each school $20k. no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
In all due respect, 20K is pocket change. That's just LeCrone telling the sponsors they have to give him a bone to throw to the programs to help seal the deal. If someone needs 20K that bad, schedule a throw away game with a top Major and make 4-5 times that much. Heck, a group of us ran a golf tournament for charity a few years ago that made 80K and a Smoker that netted 65K. 20K - give me a break.
wh is spot on. For perspective, when Butler left the Horizon, the league was getting roughly $4.5 million in annual payouts for NCAA tournament shares. Six years later, they're getting $1.5 million, the same as the MEAC, SWAC and Big West. I'm sure LeCrone is scrambling for every $, but until a team (or teams) step up and win some tournament games, budgets will be tight.
Quote from: EddieCabot on February 27, 2017, 11:12:24 AMValpo is clearly the league's best program ... the HL should be making it easier for Valpo to win the tournament, not harder (which they've done with MCM and new format).
You sound like the OLD Jon LeCrone before he caught that Motor City "Madness". Poor LeCrone is just a shell of his former self and he really wasn't much in the first place.
Quote from: StlVUFan on February 28, 2017, 09:57:39 AMAnd I also think that the problems the HL face, while somewhat self-inflicted, are also problems shared by the lower 26 entirely and need to be solved at the NCAA level rather than by us using gimmicks as band-aids. I'd like to see the NCAA reform non-conference scheduling and do something about all the power conference snow-flakes and their politically correct scheduling. They hold the rest of us in chains in November and December and we end up fighting over the at-large scraps that fall from the master's table. Deplorable. Sad!
The BIGS and their stacked selection committee will give nothing to the mid-majors without an all out battle. BUT- what little we can control we need to do better.
The cycle for gaming the RPI system is over and the BIGS have won in a rout. 20 years ago they started each season with 100 yard leads but now the gates open with them already out of sight. Can bubble quality mid majors build bubble quality OOC schedules? Not without some kind of mid major gaming teamwork.
So just as a dream imagine some kind of federation geared toward mid major bubble selections. Hypothetical---Say a projected 45 RPI team needs 2 projected 90 RPI (off the bubble) home opponents. Wallah the federation makes some phone calls and those visiting teams are owed one (in the future) by the federation or by the original beneficiary. I know. Ideas like this fail because no one can see beyond their individual self interests but its my dream and I'll shape it however I want to.
QuoteSo just as a dream imagine some kind of federation geared toward mid major bubble selections. Hypothetical---Say a projected 45 RPI team needs 2 projected 90 RPI (off the bubble) home opponents. Wallah the federation makes some phone calls and those visiting teams are owed one (in the future) by the federation or by the original beneficiary. I know. Ideas like this fail because no one can see beyond their individual self interests but its my dream and I'll shape it however I want to.
This idea has been bandied about on a few other mid-major sites and boards for years. But really, there should be some sort of scheduling consortium between the WCC, MVC, HL, MAC, CAA, etc. The (expected) top teams in those leagues are going to struggle to get good non-conference games. But if those leagues agree to help one another, you could guarantee an extra 3-4 top-100 (or better) opponents for the top 3-4 teams in each conference *every year*. It would really force the committee's hand and not force top mid-major teams to rely on the one or two cracks they get at Power 5 teams in November, on the road, with the Power 5 team's conference refs. Yes, there would be a million moving parts to this, but it's worth a shot. As you noted, the status quo for teams outside of the Power 5 + BE teams is *not working*.
On a related subject, I realize the Pioneer League is strictly a confederation for non-scholarship football programs, but seriously, VU is technically conference mates with Dayton, Davidson, Drake, San Diego (and Butler!) You're honestly telling me we can't leverage the PFL relationship to get a few non-conference basketball games lined up with these folks? We're practically colleagues, for heaven's sakes!
Every thread around here ends on a new conference forming or a talk about facilities. :'( :crazy:
Quote from: M on March 01, 2017, 08:50:18 AMEvery thread around here ends on a new conference forming or a talk about facilities. :'( :crazy:
You are correct on that.
Wonder if MLB reads the forum?
Why would he? If you've read one thread you've read them all!
Quote from: M on March 01, 2017, 09:16:18 AM
Why would he? If you've read one thread you've read them all!
Actually, he does on an infrequent basis (alludes a bit to M's seen-one, seen-them-all observation), but he does check it out every now and again. I'm also pretty sure that some athletic department people and athletes do as well but keep a low profile or only view as guests. For example, Matt LaBarbera and Brandon Vickery were frequent contributors (Brandon has been quiet and his Twitter feed has been less frequent since he joined the Sports Information Department F/T however.) And even from Ohio State, Matt will occasionally chime in or share some news.
People in the athletic department most definitely do.
Quote from: M on March 01, 2017, 09:16:18 AM
Why would he? If you've read one thread you've read them all!
When I get a little time I will be offering up something new to ponder.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 01, 2017, 09:13:29 AM
Quote from: M on March 01, 2017, 08:50:18 AMEvery thread around here ends on a new conference forming or a talk about facilities. :'( :crazy:
You are correct on that.
Wonder if MLB reads the forum?
Yes. And he is not MLB.
QuoteEvery thread around here ends on a new conference forming or a talk about facilities. :'( :crazy:
Pretty much but folks should be concerned about things like the conferences and facilities. As for facilities its pretty simple to me. When a few people write a couple big checks and say they want it to go to the a renovated ARC. That won't happen till the President and Board makes it a goal. Moot point right now.
Badly want Paul Oren to have Mark Labarbera on his Podcast to discuss overall state of the Horizon League, Shifting Conferences around the Country and the reality of getting new facilities (not soon but the future). Just so much to talk about. Aaron Leavitt would also be a great guest.
QuotePretty much but folks should be concerned about things like the conferences and facilities
People can claim that the facilities talk has been beaten to death around here, and it probably has, but consider: people around the program were talking about the need for either a new arena or serious upgrades to the ARC when we announced we were joining the HL *a decade ago*. In fact, one direct quote from a member of the program back then was "we're going from having one of the top facilities in the Mid-Con to having the worst in the Horizon League, and we'll need to fix that soon." Yet, outside of a couple of cosmetic changes, here we are, with not even a faint plan in place to improve the situation. There are 16 million reasons why Bryce left for Vandy, as well as an easier path to the NCAA tourney, but you have to figure the university's lack of initiative on the facilities front didn't help matters, either.
Some kind of news is suppose to break soon about the UWM. May affect the Conference. Media knows about it but hasn't broke the news yet and is sitting on it.
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836990789033000960
https://twitter.com/Flamesmania/status/836995468714524678
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836995650915008513
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836996462479347716
The Website Mid-Major Madness keeps teasing on twitter about some news for Oakland fans.
My guess is they are Picking Oakland to win the HL Tourney. I hope it's not something bigger like they're leaving the conference or something. I'd be pissed if they got an MVC invite over us or something. Doubt it is that but we shall see.
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836969114061180928
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836981050777665540
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836998425178746880
Quote from: VU2014 on March 01, 2017, 12:04:36 PM
The Website Mid-Major Madness keeps teasing on twitter about some news for Oakland fans.
My guess is they are Picking Oakland to win the HL Tourney. I hope it's not something bigger like they're leaving the conference or something. I'd be pissed if they got an MVC invite over us or something. Doubt it is that but we shall see.
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836969114061180928
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836981050777665540
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836998425178746880
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/1/14745628/oakland-grizzlies-michigan-greg-kampe-horizon-league-martez-walker-kay-felder
Nothing special
Posted at 12:00 central time. So, just after all these tweets
Quote from: VU2014 on March 01, 2017, 11:52:11 AM
Some kind of news is suppose to break soon about the UWM. May affect the Conference. Media knows about it but hasn't broke the news yet and is sitting on it.
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836990789033000960
https://twitter.com/Flamesmania/status/836995468714524678
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836995650915008513
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836996462479347716
The line "you're evil, lady" would suggest that the AD possibly has made some sort of decision that they aren't fans of.
Curious to see what. And what could come of whatever it is.
@PantherU is hyping it too
https://twitter.com/pantheru/status/836999132384542725
Quote from: VU2014 on March 01, 2017, 12:11:50 PM
@PantherU is hyping it too
https://twitter.com/pantheru/status/836999132384542725
Pretty sure he did that facetiously.
Watch them self-report a post-season ban...Makes more sense to hype something like that than picking the damn number one seed to win the conference tournament.
Who cares who is picked to win the HL Tourney...last year we were the overwhelming favorite and look what happened.
https://twitter.com/MR_KJS/status/837059425403744256
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/837067703001235456
Quote from: StlVUFan on February 28, 2017, 07:57:59 PM
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMI understand your point, but I disagree with your statement that the tournament decides who the "best" team is.
I never said that. Tournament decides the champion, not who the best team is. There is no way to determine who the best team is. That's my whole point.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMOr that an 18 game regular season is a small sample size, but a few games on a neutral court isn't, and decides ultimately who the best team is.
Once again, never said either of those things.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMI think it's a little absurd to think Green Bay was the best team in the league last year because they shot really well vs Valpo in one game. Green Bay was 1-2 vs Valpo and significantly behind them in pretty much every metric that ranks teams.
Green Bay wasn't the best team last year. They were the champion.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMThe moral game with an even playing field is nice and all, but mid majors aren't given a fair shake.
Vanderbilt can lose to a crappy SEC bottom feeder in their tournament, but a good mid major can't lose at all. Ultimately the SEC program can get away with losing in the first round of their conference, but it's still all roses on selection Sunday. And hey, when they put on a pathetic show on national TV, they can always pouch a top mid major basketball coach from a team that did more with way less.
Now you're just stealing my rant.
Quote from: a3uge on February 28, 2017, 07:44:06 PMFor the good of the conference, I could care less about playing fair, and leveling the teams out. The conference goes as the best teams go. Without NCAA tournament wins, there's not much sell to the conference, and I'm still trying to grasp why it's in the best interest of the conference to level things out again.
Once again: for the purpose of this debate, we don't know with high enough confidence who the best team is. And again, if we did, I would be against having a conference tournament at all.
I understand your point now, but still disagree with some of it. I do agree that the 2 seed was sort of shafted, since they were a sitting duck while the other teams got a game under their belt on an unfamiliar court. I don't think the back to back games is all that much of a negative anymore. I think a better way to fix the discrepancy is to give only the 1 seed a double bye somehow, homecourt, and base the tiebreakers solely on winning percentage. RPIs would go up because teams would schedule easier.
I think the OOC portion of HL schedules has been completely shrugged off. From awards to seeding, there's no recognition of teams that ultimately benefit the conference. Last year Kampe said McClain should be considered for coach of the year because they won their 3rd conference game. There's a good case to be made that UIC cost Valpo an at-large due to dragging down everyone's RPI by at least 8 points. That and the NKU addition may have cost the league millions in NCAA tournament units.
I don't understand the league's strategy at this point. What exactly does the neutral court tournament benefit the whole league long-term? Other than a quick arena payment, I'm not sure I've heard a decent argument for the change from the league's point of view.
Quote from: a3uge on March 01, 2017, 04:43:33 PM
I don't understand the league's strategy at this point. What exactly does the neutral court tournament benefit the whole league long-term? Other than a quick arena payment, I'm not sure I've heard a decent argument for the change from the league's point of view.
Very interesting point that hasn't been talked about much. Take the immediate cash from Olympia.... and then we'll somehow do something, sometime to upgrade the conference RPI to make the HL an at-large conference and in the meantime hope that whoever wins the HL tournament gets a seed higher than 15 and wins a couple of games (where the real money is I understand). Comes down to tactical vs. strategic thinking.
Do you guys think Kampe and Oakland tell recruits that the conference tournament is down the road and their families will be about to watch them play extra games and possibly win a ncaa bid every year? Huge recruiting advantage
Do you guys think Valpo had recruits on campus watching us win ncaa bids at home in front of an electrifying crowd? Huge recruiting advantage. We had some good recruiting classes after hosting the tournament.....Wait, no more advantage, at least for us. That advantage is now in Detroit.
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/837384748003549188
http://kenpom.com/blog/2017-horizon-league-forecast/
2017 Horizon League forecast
Ken Pomeroy | March 2, 2017
Horizon League (conference rank: 19th)
March 3-7
All games at North Charleston, S.C.
kPOY: Alec Peters, Valparaiso
Regular season champ: Valparaiso (preseason #69 / 1st HL, current #94) and Oakland (preseason #163 / 3rd HL, current #110)
Overachiever: Northern Kentucky (preseason #277, current #155)
Underachiever: Milwaukee (preseason #227, current #280)
"The big story out of the Horizon League is that Valpo's Alec Peters will be unable to play in the event, or any other event that the Crusaders might participate in the rest of the season. Peters missed the last two games of the regular with a leg injury that turned out to be serious enough to require missing the next few weeks.
Though the resulting chances tabulated below do not consider Peters' absence, the results of the two games he missed shouldn't cause Valpo fans to give up hope. The Crusaders played two games that were expected to be toss-ups: road games against Wright State and Northern Kentucky. They beat Wright State in a tight game and lost to NKU in a close one.
Generally, I think the impact of an injured player is overstated in college hoops. People covering [whatever] tend to overstate the impact of any event, because it's good for business to say "hey guys, this is really important!" No doubt Peters' injury affects Valpo and the Crusaders always had to deal with the issue of being swept rather easily by Oakland in the regular season, anyway. But they still have Shane Hammink and Tevonn Walker and early indicators are positive that they can take on additional offensive responsibilities. While Oakland is surely the actual favorite, Valpo isn't far behind and no worse that the second-most likely option this week.
I've given Detroit a half share of home court and Oakland a quarter share in this event.
QuoteDo you guys think Kampe and Oakland tell recruits that the conference tournament is down the road and their families will be about to watch them play extra games and possibly win a ncaa bid every year? Huge recruiting advantage
I guarantee you Kampe tells recruits the Tourney is in their backyards and uses that as a selling point families and local Michigan recruits.
QuoteDo you guys think Valpo had recruits on campus watching us win ncaa bids at home in front of an electrifying crowd? Huge recruiting advantage. We had some good recruiting classes after hosting the tournament.....Wait, no more advantage, at least for us. That advantage is now in Detroit.
Yep I remember sitting next to recruit one year at the conference Tourney in Valpo.
I also remember meeting Alec and Jubril when Valpo cut the nets down on the court during Rowdy's senior year. I believe both may have signed before then but you get the point.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BQ0XntbDCEI/?taken-by=4apeters
"These guys were at the HL Championship game in 2013 before high school graduation - 4 yrs later-"
QuoteOn Playing the Tournament at a Neutral Site: "For us right now, the biggest factor is that we've been treated like royalty here. We feel that people have really embraced us at the hotel, at every restaurant. At every place we've gone, it's really special. We get that tournament feel and that tournament atmosphere. We're a big family at Valpo, so it's cool to be in the same place as the men.
Seems Tracey Dorow thinks this Detroit experience is pretty cool.
YSU beats Oakland on last second bucket! LOVE IT!! :)
Say what you want about J. Slocum. He probably doesn't care super much anymore, and given his budget, why should he.
But...
That was one of the greatest play calls I have ever seen. The BALLS he had to run that play knowing full well that unless executed perfectly, time may expire before the shot goes up...wow..
Belmont now Oakland both banished to the NIT. Our slim NIT at large hopes have gotten slimmer. Looks like NCAA or bust.
Also....
Last year the 1/2 seeds play the 3/4 seeds cold. They lose because of the new sight lines and the other teams having played in the gym already. So they change it. Surely, if they play the 7-10 seeds they will be fine playing in that gym for the first time...right?
So far tonight the 1 seed goes down to the 9 seed. Perhaps playing on one day's rest is not as bad as all the old men making decisions thinks it is? I mean, these are 18-23 year old for the most part. You recover pretty quickly.
Win or lose for Valpo tonight... The neutral format has been a disaster for the league! Now both Detroit/Oakland are out of the tournament with 4 days of games left!
Quote from: SanityLost17 on March 04, 2017, 07:05:38 PM
Say what you want about J. Slocum. He probably doesn't care super much anymore, and given his budget, why should he.
But...
That was one of the greatest play calls I have ever seen. The BALLS he had to run that play knowing full well that unless executed perfectly, time may expire before the shot goes up...wow..
I don't think that was a set play. That was just good court awareness by Morse. I knew that YSU would be a tough game for anyone, as Morse is the type of guy that can set the tone for a game.
Lecrone worst nightmare
If GB loses, than it will be even more embarrassing for the league. Playing at JLA in the men's bracket has rewarded the league with an 0-4 record for the teams with the better seed...
Quote from: talksalot on March 04, 2017, 08:21:07 PMLecrone worst nightmare
Yes Lecrone has been our worst nightmare. I know the HL doesn't pay him that well but we are still getting short changed. How does he still have a job?
Would love to see an NKU championship and a deep Oakland NIT run.
I do have to say that Drew McDonald is going to be a stud for NKU over his JR and SR seasons. That kid plays with a fire, and is very talented.
Another stellar effort by Kiser....I vote him scholarship worthy. Good season of work for the young man.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 04, 2017, 10:07:04 PMAnother stellar effort by Kiser....I vote him scholarship worthy. Good season of work for the young man.
Yeah. He may not be the greatest player but he plays hard and doesn't give up. He deserves to be rewarded. I think it will depend on whether they find another recruit they deem better.
I have to believe that Kiser is getting that last scholarship, regardless of who comes up on the radar.
Quote from: valpotx on March 04, 2017, 10:25:33 PMI have to believe that Kiser is getting that last scholarship, regardless of who comes up on the radar.
If he can become a 30% 3 point shooter he could get 15 minutes per game even if we picked up a couple 4 star recruits. That said I hope he seldom or never has to start for us again. He is better suited to match up against most opponents second string 3.
Might he get to a Ben Boggs level? Uhhhhhhh- maybe. A lot can happen in 3 more years.
Quote from: valpotx on March 04, 2017, 10:25:33 PMI have to believe that Kiser is getting that last scholarship, regardless of who comes up on the radar.
I hope so. Like I said I think he deserves it.
Quote from: bsmith21 on March 04, 2017, 09:55:57 PM
Also gotta w ok nder if anyone's actually going to be at the rest of these games
In case you're w ok ndering, I will be at the rest of these games. ;)
Quote from: justducky on March 04, 2017, 11:04:12 PM
Quote from: valpotx on March 04, 2017, 10:25:33 PMI have to believe that Kiser is getting that last scholarship, regardless of who comes up on the radar.
If he can become a 30% 3 point shooter he could get 15 minutes per game even if we picked up a couple 4 star recruits. That said I hope he seldom or never has to start for us again. He is better suited to match up against most opponents second string 3.
Might he get to a Ben Boggs level? Uhhhhhhh- maybe. A lot can happen in 3 more years.
He is only a freshmen but I would agree. His overall game right now is an "off the bench" type of player. He is an improved version of Davidson and therefore will get minutes. His rebounding and ability to guard and rebound is a plus.
His offensive game does need to develop.
Everyone's complaining but Valpo wouldn't have won the regular season anyways because Peters was too hurt to play.
It's clear they would have lost whether this game was played at Oakland JLA or in China.
I think after the five year contract is up, the league will realize the tournament needs to be more centrally located and switch the venue to Milwaukee Chicago or somewhere in Ohio.
Detroit threw them the most money for now, but will they continue to do so when they see the poor attendance numbers?
The league said there was 8000 for last nights games. That probably includes the first session of women's games which was probably 1000 or so combined. Way better than any of our home venues would have gotten.
Tuesday will be embarrassing playing the game in an empty area, but had Oakland made it or Detroit it certainly wouldn't have been empty. The neutral site isn't the problem at all, it's the location. Detroit is not centrally located. Tourney needs to be in Chicago Milwaukee or perhaps Cleveland?
Not sure who I'm going to "root" for the rest of the Tournament...
I'm thinking I'm going to root for YSU. Maybe if they make the Tourney it will reinvigorate there basketball program and they'll stop being a drag on the conference. Plus they have the only player left in the Conference tournament that could "go off" and create his own buckets which is what you need in the NCAA tournament even they will be a 15-16 seed. Seeding doesn't matter for the Conference anymore anyways because GB and NKU will still be 15-16 seeds regardless.
Either way the Horizon League will most likely get embarrassed in the first round now anyways. May as well hope Morse can go off in that game and maybe YSU's program uses making the Tourney as momentum.
Valpo without peters would have gotten embarrassed in their first round game too don't kid yourself
Oakland was the only team that had a chance at a respectable showing
QuoteValpo without peters would have gotten embarrassed in their first round game too don't kid yourself
Very defensive today... Never said Valpo had a shot in the 1st round NCAA game without Peters.
Quote from: VU2014 on March 05, 2017, 11:58:48 AM
QuoteLol Bryce is the one who left us with 3 open scholarships, a graduating Peters, and no point guard backup after Carter (which is the reason why we didn't make the tournament last year). He also took along Valpo's top assistant, and probably tried to take along players (Skara... Peters?).
Lottich isn't the reason why Valpo was starting a walk-on.
We can't blame Bryce. He left us Alec Peters. It was a strange year with the large amount of open scholarships, but EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE from the players, coaches, ADs, Horizon League Leadership thought Keith Carter would get another year. He was hurt the freshman year and played only a handful of minutes and SLU refused to red-shirt him because they knew he wanted to transfer with the new Coaching staff turnover there at the time. NCAA screwed us on that.
The one thing I'm curious to find out the back story on was Skara transfer. We all know that the scumbag from Don Bosco "Prep" Maravilla used David Skara as a leverage to get a coach on staff with Valpo and then forced him to transfer. Bryce wanted to bring Skara over to Vandy once he knew Skara was transferring but skara wasn't aloud to go to Vandy but was aloud anywhere else. (that is normal procedure for ADs in granting transfers). I just don't know if we even know the whole story there.
The point being is that the cupboard wasn't bare but there were glaring recruiting holes at some positions. I don't blame Bryce and I don't blame Lottich either.
Valpo has had a lot of Bad Luck the last 12 months. If we have Healthy Peters (would be healthy with less min), Skara, Jubril and Keith Carter then we may be an outright tourney bid team and would have a had a better shot of not losing to Santa Clara, better chance against Oregon, Better showing against Kentucky on the road, and probably wouldn't lose 4 Conference games (you always have to expect 1-2 tourney losses regardless). We'd be a different team...
Leaving a slot open for Carter would explain one of the available scholarships. As unlucky and bad this season may have seemed, it could have started a LOT worse had Peters gone somewhere else. I can't blame Bryce for the roster construction where we had 0 recruits the year prior (well one, but Revalo wasn't that good), but he didn't exactly reload the team before he left.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 01, 2017, 09:20:38 AM
Quote from: M on March 01, 2017, 09:16:18 AM
Why would he? If you've read one thread you've read them all!
Actually, he does on an infrequent basis (alludes a bit to M's seen-one, seen-them-all observation), but he does check it out every now and again. I'm also pretty sure that some athletic department people and athletes do as well but keep a low profile or only view as guests. For example, Matt LaBarbera and Brandon Vickery were frequent contributors (Brandon has been quiet and his Twitter feed has been less frequent since he joined the Sports Information Department F/T however.) And even from Ohio State, Matt will occasionally chime in or share some news.
I definitely enjoy reading the forum - I think it's important for someone in my position to know what fans are talking about and care about. Also, for those of us that, in many ways, dedicate our lives to ValpoAthletics, I think it's nice to see how many people have a passion for what we do. A couple reasons behind my drop off in tweets this year. A good chunk of my time and energy is spent on the workload of an SID, especially a first-year SID learning the ropes as he goes. Another is that I'm still trying to figure out how to utilize my twitter feed in a way where I can still provide interesting insight to fans about our programs, while keeping in mind that my role has changed, and I'm not a reporter digging up information any longer.
Brandon, that is what I was alluding to by mentioning that you were quiet. It is natural to do that given your new position. BTW, I said before, but congratulations and thanks for working so hard for VU athletics.
Probably sums up the Horizon League HQ's emotions right now...
https://twitter.com/LukePurcy/status/838536124268179456
Whoever had YSU, Milwaukee, UIC, NKU and WSU in their final five is either insane or a complete genius!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have been saying for a month that there would be very little competitive advantage between the #1, 2 and 3 seeds. These 3 teams performed like identical triplets. :o
Does Brycepeters disappear from our board now? My guess is that he was a GB fan rubbing it in.
The Horizon League's plan all along must have been to produce a team that could win the 16-seed play in game because that plan is working out well so far. Great job! :thumbsup:
At least if an HL team wins the play in game, the HL will get some money so there's that too. Meanwhile, our conference standing is plummeting. But hey, who needs that when you can have $$$! :thumbsup:
One of the benefits of the double bye was to protect RPIs. Even had Valpo won, their RPI would have dropped. The reason why 9 and 10 seeds never advanced very far was because they played a true road game before even getting to the conference tournament.
The winner of WSU/NKU isn't going to boost their RPI vs YSU (it may actually drop)... And then have ANOTHER similar game vs UIC or UWM.
The league really asked for this debacle.
#firelecrone
Would the HL ever consider keeping the conference tournament to just the top six teams? Even a middling HL team could probably snag a 15-seed if they won the HLT. I don't much like the idea of excluding teams (even bad ones) but that might solve some of our problems.
I also heard a rumor on Twitter that the HL tossed around the idea of a double-elimination conference tournament but the NCAA wouldn't let them go through with it.
Quote from: hailcrusaders on March 05, 2017, 07:11:46 PM
Would the HL ever consider keeping the conference tournament to just the top six teams? Even a middling HL team could probably snag a 15-seed if they won the HLT. I don't much like the idea of excluding teams (even bad ones) but that might solve some of our problems.
I also a rumor on Twitter that the HL tossed around the idea of a double-elimination conference tournament but the NCAA wouldn't let them go through with it.
The double-elimination was being considered before the decision to move the tournament to Detroit. LeCrone once hinted at experimentation like that during a news conference at the ARC when the tournament was in Valpo.
I wish the NCAA allowed the Horizon League to actually create the Tournament format it wanted...
A few years ago the HL was going to create a double elimination style tournament which means even if the tops seeds lost the first game, they'd still have a (difficult) second shot to win the tournament. It's a somewhat common Tourney format in sports leagues in different countries.
The NCAA shot it down because they thought it would give the Horizon League teams an advantage and mess up their "sacred" selection committee's process. Paul talked about it in the Bill Potter podcast
BREAKING NEWS FROM HL HQ:
In 2018 they wiil experiment with 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Detroit for the remaining rounds.
All Men's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday, all Women's Qtr finals (4 games) on Saturday, Men's Semi Finals (2 games) on Sunday, Women's Semi (2 games) on Monday, Men's final on Tuesday, women's final Wednesday. When that sends 200+ RPI teams to the dance......
In 2019 the HL will experiment with:
>> Men's 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Detroit for the remaining rounds.
>> Women's 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Ft. Wayne for the remaining rounds.
>> All Men's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday,
>> All Women's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday
>> Men's Semi Finals (2 games) on Saturday
>> Women's Semi (2 games) on Saturday,
>> Men's final on Sunday
>> Women's final Sunday
When that sends 200+ RPI teams to the dance......
In 2020 the HL will experiment with:
>> All first round games (both Men and Women) played on campus of highest lower seeds.
>> Qtr finals (both Men and Women) played on the campus of the regular season champion - no byes
>> Semifinal and Finals played in Detroit (Both Men and Women)
When that happens, the HL ................................................................ will accuse the Russians of meddling in our conference format.
Here's a suggestion that will never get very much traction:
Keep the current format with the following edit:
If the pairing involves a team that went 2-0 against the other team, the team with the wins automatically advances with no game played:
Play Ins:
Milwaukee over Detroit, game played
Youngstown over Cleveland St, game played
First Round:
Valpo over Milwaukee, game not played
Oakland over YSU, game not played
Green Bay over UIC, game not played
NKU over WSU, game not played
Second Round:
Valpo v. Green Bay, game played
Oakland over NKU, game not played
Finals
Either Oakland over Valpo, game not played
Or Oakland v. Green Bay, game played
This way the season round robin means something so that if you are a stinky team, you don't get a chance to get hot in the tournament. Imagine the tenacity of some of the games in the second round robin when teams are fighting to force a tournament game.
Get a title game that doesn't even get played?
Quote from: VUOR63 on March 05, 2017, 08:18:31 PM
Here's a suggestion that will never get very much traction:
Keep the current format with the following edit:
If the pairing involves a team that went 2-0 against the other team, the team with the wins automatically advances with no game played:
Play Ins:
Milwaukee over Detroit, game played
Youngstown over Cleveland St, game played
First Round:
Valpo over Milwaukee, game not played
Oakland over YSU, game not played
Green Bay over UIC, game not played
NKU over WSU, game not played
Second Round:
Valpo v. Green Bay, game played
Oakland over NKU, game not played
Finals
Either Oakland over Valpo, game not played
Or Oakland v. Green Bay, game played
This way the season round robin means something so that if you are a stinky team, you don't get a chance to get hot in the tournament. Imagine the tenacity of some of the games in the second round robin when teams are fighting to force a tournament game.
Or just go back to the old format.
I got to the end with no championship and said, "darn it, I did too much research on ESPN.com not to post this". lol
Quote from: VU2014 on March 05, 2017, 07:29:42 PMI wish the NCAA allowed the Horizon League to actually create the Tournament format it wanted... A few years ago the HL was going to create a double elimination style tournament which means even if the tops seeds lost the first game, they'd still have a (difficult) second shot to win the tournament. It's a somewhat common Tourney format in sports leagues in different countries. The NCAA shot it down because they thought it would give the Horizon League teams an advantage and mess up their "sacred" selection committee's process. Paul talked about it in the Bill Potter podcast
It's stupid that the NCAA micromanages conference tournament formats. I believe conferences are allowed to award their auto-qualifier spots as they see fit, so the HL isn't even
required to have a conference tournament to award the auto-bid (the Ivy didn't have one until this year). But since we do have a tournament, then the NCAA decides to step in and mandate how it can or can't work. If they're going to give individual conferences the freedom of awarding their own bids, then let them call the shots on their own tournaments.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 05, 2017, 07:45:24 PM
BREAKING NEWS FROM HL HQ:
In 2018 they wiil experiment with 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Detroit for the remaining rounds.
All Men's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday, all Women's Qtr finals (4 games) on Saturday, Men's Semi Finals (2 games) on Sunday, Women's Semi (2 games) on Monday, Men's final on Tuesday, women's final Wednesday. When that sends 200+ RPI teams to the dance......
In 2019 the HL will experiment with:
>> Men's 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Detroit for the remaining rounds.
>> Women's 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Ft. Wayne for the remaining rounds.
>> All Men's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday,
>> All Women's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday
>> Men's Semi Finals (2 games) on Saturday
>> Women's Semi (2 games) on Saturday,
>> Men's final on Sunday
>> Women's final Sunday
When that sends 200+ RPI teams to the dance......
In 2020 the HL will experiment with:
>> All first round games (both Men and Women) played on campus of highest lower seeds.
>> Qtr finals (both Men and Women) played on the campus of the regular season champion - no byes
>> Semifinal and Finals played in Detroit (Both Men and Women)
When that happens, the HL ................................................................ will accuse the Russians of meddling in our conference format.
I noticed that 2021 got cut off of your post. In case anyone missed it:
In recognizing that the decision to move the tournament to Detroit in 2016 did not yield the results the conference was hoping for, new Horizon League Commissioner Homer Drew has announced that the Horizon League will experiment with a new tourney format:
All first-round matches will be played at the home court of the higher-seeded team involved. Hosting rights for the quarterfinals and semifinals will be awarded to the winner of the regular season championship. The championship game will be played at the home arena of the higher remaining seed. This format will reward the regular-season champion and runner-up with a double-bye into the semifinals. The regular-season champion will receive the added benefit of home-court advantage in the semifinals, plus a home-court final if it wins its semifinal.
Commissioner Drew said it is his belief that this new format will give the HL its greatest opportunity to successfully compete in the NCAA tournament. He added that this is only one of several changes the HL will be making in an attempt to improve its current standing among D-1 conferences. The HL finished 26th in conference RPI in 2020, according to Warren Nolan RPI.
We could only hope...
Here's a thought. Perhaps we should stop pissing and moaning and actually win the tourney.
Quote from: wh on March 05, 2017, 09:23:53 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 05, 2017, 07:45:24 PM
BREAKING NEWS FROM HL HQ:
In 2018 they wiil experiment with 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Detroit for the remaining rounds.
All Men's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday, all Women's Qtr finals (4 games) on Saturday, Men's Semi Finals (2 games) on Sunday, Women's Semi (2 games) on Monday, Men's final on Tuesday, women's final Wednesday. When that sends 200+ RPI teams to the dance......
In 2019 the HL will experiment with:
>> Men's 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Detroit for the remaining rounds.
>> Women's 1st round games played on campus of the highest lower seed. Those winners, along with Seeds 1-6 will trek to Ft. Wayne for the remaining rounds.
>> All Men's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday,
>> All Women's Qtr finals (4 games) will be played on Friday
>> Men's Semi Finals (2 games) on Saturday
>> Women's Semi (2 games) on Saturday,
>> Men's final on Sunday
>> Women's final Sunday
When that sends 200+ RPI teams to the dance......
In 2020 the HL will experiment with:
>> All first round games (both Men and Women) played on campus of highest lower seeds.
>> Qtr finals (both Men and Women) played on the campus of the regular season champion - no byes
>> Semifinal and Finals played in Detroit (Both Men and Women)
When that happens, the HL ................................................................ will accuse the Russians of meddling in our conference format.
I noticed that 2021 got cut off of your post. In case anyone missed it:
In recognizing that the decision to move the tournament to Detroit in 2016 did not yield the results the conference was hoping for, new Horizon League Commissioner Homer Drew has announced that the Horizon League will experiment with a new tourney format:
All first-round matches will be played at the home court of the higher-seeded team involved. Hosting rights for the quarterfinals and semifinals will be awarded to the winner of the regular season championship. The championship game will be played at the home arena of the higher remaining seed. This format will reward the regular-season champion and runner-up with a double-bye into the semifinals. The regular-season champion will receive the added benefit of home-court advantage in the semifinals, plus a home-court final if it wins its semifinal.
Commissioner Drew said it is his belief that this new format will give the HL its greatest opportunity to successfully compete in the NCAA tournament. He added that this is only one of several changes the HL will be making in an attempt to improve its current standing among D-1 conferences. The HL finished 26th in conference RPI in 2020, according to Warren Nolan RPI.
Don'tcha love fooling around like this? It's a bad situation (at least for us) but a bit of humor helps the medicine go down.
On to 2017-18. They say the biggest leap in improvement in college sports comes between the freshman and sophomore year (pros:Rookie to 2nd year). Probably holds true for coaches as well. Matt and the returning players will learn considerably from what they experienced and we've witnessed. I'm hopeful/confident that the learning will be put to good use.
Yeah this tourney has been one to forget. Simply put, our guys didn't come to play and I'm almost glad the stress of the season is over. I refuse to watch the remaining games only because I know if we had our game back, we could beat anyone, but, that's just how it goes. I guess I'm rooting for YSU only because I want Kaufman to become a folk hero, otherwise I really don't give a :censored:. Either way, who ever the league would've sent this year would've gotten massacred in the first round so that helps me sleep a little better at night. I'm honestly pretty pumped for next year already, the league should be a blast to watch and highly competitive outside of Milwaukee.
Phoenix, you're right on most points but in all honestly, a fully healthy, playing well Oakland team had a real shot in the NCAA with a decent match up. Whatever my personal feelings on a couple of their players, this year and next were/are a potential huge stepping stone to joining the mid major elite. Now that margin of error is slim to none. Yes, you have to play the games as they're presented. But it's the conference's job to put their teams in the best positions. They have failed here.
WOW! What a great tourney! The semi-finals featuring the number 4, 6, 9 and 10 seeds. Whoever the winner is, what a great representative for the HL to the NCAA Tourney. I can't wait to watch on TV the remaining games to determine the HL Champion! And what is the combined won/loss record of the semi final teams? How exciting!
If there were any tickets left for the semi-final and final game sessions, I'll bet there are all sucked up by now. Now that's what I call a "final four". They couldn't have picked a better name than "Motor City Madness". Will all of the "semi" participant schools get a complimentary high school band to keep that excitement at a fever pitch?
Monsieur LeCrone got the tournament site he wanted (screw the top seeds) and is now getting the tournament he deserves in back-to-back years.
Youngstown is my new favorite to take it all! Call it Les Miserables. LeCrone showing mercy on the have nots and wretches. Why not go all the way and have the underdog's underdog take it all. Yes, Milwaukee is the #10 seed, but YSU is a better story You have a rust belt star from Flint (Cameron Morse) playing in the Rust Belt's capital city. In the year of Trump, why not?
Go Penguins! Seriously.
LeCrone protests too much as he spins for the media and directs his staff to do so as well: "We weren't disappointed with an outcome," LeCrone said... "We met as a staff and said, 'That was great' (the excitement and atmosphere). Nobody was pouting, nobody was glum, nobody had their lower lip stuck out because Oakland lost. I tell the staff all the time, what happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. We weren't one bit disappointed, not a bit. We were actually energized. That's what I didn't want characterized, that we were disappointed. We weren't."
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/)
Hope he and his staff are really energized these next two nights as it will just be them and a dozen or so random fans in the Joe.
Quote from: valpopal on March 06, 2017, 11:28:23 AMLeCrone protests too much as he spins for the media and directs his staff to do so as well: "We weren't disappointed with an outcome," LeCrone said... "We met as a staff and said, 'That was great' (the excitement and atmosphere). Nobody was pouting, nobody was glum, nobody had their lower lip stuck out because Oakland lost. I tell the staff all the time, what happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. We weren't one bit disappointed, not a bit. We were actually energized. That's what I didn't want characterized, that we were disappointed. We weren't." http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/)
This all reads "this was a massive disappointment" :lol:
When they report attendance figures for each day, are they including the women's games? That might account for the slight uptick in numbers.
Does anyone in the media have the ----- to call this tourney what it really is? Or to talk about the "real" attendance figures? In a radio interview last week on WJR, "King Kampe" stated that with the good representation from the U of D and OU, they could come close to filling the arena. Riiiiiiiiiight. This event makes even the $15 student ticket price appear to be over-priced.
And just think...if the #9 and #10 seeds meet in the final game, LeCrone might have an orgasm from all the excitement caused as he relaxes in his arena suite over-looking the 487 people in attendance, smiling, and telling his friends what a great success his tourney had for the second year in a row! Pizza! Pizza!
Quote from: valpopal on March 06, 2017, 11:28:23 AM
LeCrone protests too much as he spins for the media and directs his staff to do so as well: "We weren't disappointed with an outcome," LeCrone said... "We met as a staff and said, 'That was great' (the excitement and atmosphere). Nobody was pouting, nobody was glum, nobody had their lower lip stuck out because Oakland lost. I tell the staff all the time, what happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. We weren't one bit disappointed, not a bit. We were actually energized. That's what I didn't want characterized, that we were disappointed. We weren't."
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/)
Towards the end of the article this ridiculous statement appeared - This year, the top three seeds on the men's side have been eliminated, leaving a 4, 6, 9 and 10 — just fine with the Horizon League, with Lach saying, "It's called 'Motor City Madness,' not 'Motor City Sanity.' " :crazy:
Quote from: valpopal on March 06, 2017, 11:28:23 AM
LeCrone protests too much as he spins for the media and directs his staff to do so as well: "We weren't disappointed with an outcome," LeCrone said... "We met as a staff and said, 'That was great' (the excitement and atmosphere). Nobody was pouting, nobody was glum, nobody had their lower lip stuck out because Oakland lost. I tell the staff all the time, what happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. We weren't one bit disappointed, not a bit. We were actually energized. That's what I didn't want characterized, that we were disappointed. We weren't."[/b]
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/)
Here are actual quotes from the recorded conversation LeCrone had with his staff immediately following the Oakland loss:
You over there - stop pouting! You - get that glum look off your face! And you - stick in that lower lip before I stick it in for you - permanently! Now, listen up, and listen good! What happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. This is all about mind over matter! We are not disappointed that Oakland lost - not one bit disappointed! Do you understand me?! In fact, we are energized by Oakland's loss! Do you get that?! Energized!! The last thing I want publicly characterized from any of you is that we are disappointed. Because we're not disappointed, right? Right! We're energized, right? Right! Now get out there and look happy!!"
Quote from: valpo64 on March 06, 2017, 12:26:13 PM
Does anyone in the media have the ----- to call this tourney what it really is?
Nope. They're too busy enjoying their free stay in Detroit with free food at the games.
Quote from: Valpo89 on March 06, 2017, 01:21:55 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on March 06, 2017, 12:26:13 PM
Does anyone in the media have the ----- to call this tourney what it really is?
Nope. They're too busy enjoying their free stay in Detroit with free food at the games.
...and not having to worry about packing up and moving to a new location if the host school loses, or making new hotel arrangements, or working with amateur college staffs instead of a professional entertainment staff. This is all about them, just like staying in Indy when we don't have a program anywhere close is all about them and their personal comfort.
Great thread title - "what a joke"
Quote from: crusadermoe on March 06, 2017, 11:08:11 AM
Monsieur LeCrone got the tournament site he wanted (screw the top seeds) and is now getting the tournament he deserves in back-to-back years.
Youngstown is my new favorite to take it all! Call it Les Miserables. LeCrone showing mercy on the have nots and wretches. Why not go all the way and have the underdog's underdog take it all. Yes, Milwaukee is the #10 seed, but YSU is a better story You have a rust belt star from Flint (Cameron Morse) playing in the Rust Belt's capital city. In the year of Trump, why not?
Go Penguins! Seriously.
Sadly, had Valpo found a way to beat #10 UWM, they would be the big favorite heading into the semi-finals. Giant missed opportunity, but unable to overcome all the obstacles and hardships.
LeCrone is getting himself "Hot-n-Ready" to watch the Penguins go dancing!
Just a note that unless NKU is able to win tonight, we'll have two teams with losing records battling it out in an empty arena for the HL's lone tourney bid (and a certain slot in the 16-seed play-in game) in YEAR TWO of the Detroit neutral site experiment, which, I hasten to remind everyone, is the precise situation the home-court, double-bye format was implemented by the HL years ago to avoid.
Good job all around, Horizon League "leadership" and presidents...
You would think, since LeCrone has been commissioner since 1992, he would have remembered the reasons for going to the double bye and homecourt advantage.
[tweet]838225422492045312[/tweet]
Comment unnecessary
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on March 06, 2017, 02:44:31 PM
Just a note that unless NKU is able to win tonight, we'll have two teams with losing records battling it out in an empty arena for the HL's lone tourney bid (and a certain slot in the 16-seed play-in game) in YEAR TWO of the Detroit neutral site experiment, which, I hasten to remind everyone, is the precise situation the home-court, double-bye format was implemented by the HL years ago to avoid.
Good job all around, Horizon League "leadership" and presidents...
but, LeCrone and minions won't be one bit disappointed. Not a bit. They will actually be energized. lol
Go YSU and Milwaukee!
Less than 1500 at the jla tonight. My guess 1100.
Bet they say it is 8k or something ridiculous.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on March 06, 2017, 07:29:25 PMLess than 1500 at the jla tonight. My guess 1100. Bet they say it is 8k or something ridiculous.
Is it people in attendance or tickets sold? I bet it's tickets sold. Look at how many people bought all session tickets and don't show up when their team is out. That's how you make the numbers look better.
Quote from: Mc on March 06, 2017, 07:41:28 PM
I'd love to see us out of the Horizon and into a conference with better leadership, but Valpo's season just ended in an embarrassing whimper, and we were far from impressive. Does a higher-ranked conference really want a team that could not muster enough energy to score more than a decent high school team...in the conference tournament.
If conferences selected teams on single game performances, Loyola would still be dragging the Horizon's RPI down.
The only consolation would be if the winning coach of the tournament was anointed "Little Caesar" by LeCrone while all 20 fans shower him with pepperoni from the seats after the final buzzer has sounded.
That deserves a chuckle.
I like NKU and their potential for the league both this year and in the future. Going to be a very solid with all players returning but one senior.
We are a wild card next year.
Oakland should be deadly as a team.
GB?
The Phoenix will still be a competitor for a top 3 seed. We lost a lot of players but honestly it is more "trimming the fat." 3 guys were below average, non system players, while our Juco transfers were solid, but not unreplacable by any means. We are very excited about our incoming freshmen and we still have two scholarships to give. We also have a JUCO guy coming in who averages something like 27/8 the last time I checked. Plus, we have a 4.5 star Marquette transfer who will have a year and a half. Watch out for us, I think we will be more competitive next year.
Quote from: yayphoenixyay on March 06, 2017, 08:00:33 PM
The Phoenix will still be a competitor for a top 3 seed. We lost a lot of players but honestly it is more "trimming the fat." 3 guys were below average, non system players, while our Juco transfers were solid, but not unreplacable by any means. We are very excited about our incoming freshmen and we still have two scholarships to give. We also have a JUCO guy coming in who averages something like 27/8 the last time I checked. Plus, we have a 4.5 star Marquette transfer who will have a year and a half. Watch out for us, I think we will be more competitive next year.
Haha, knew you were still lurking! Figured it'd set you up nicely.
^^ I've been responding, my man
Counted 611 people for game 2. Counting bands and ticket takers.
My BAC is higher than the attendance.
Since your judgement is impaired, I demand a recount! Looks closer to 400 to me.
Also. They let us in for free.
Also got a beer for free, too. The lady serving dirty blonde beer is not happy "having to work on Monday night in front of 200 people." I let her vent and got a free drink.
On a positive note, all teams in the semis reached the teens in scoring by halftime, so there's that. :thumbsup:
Based on his early posts, I wrote yayphoenixyay off as a troll. Suddenly, he gets rid of the edge and actually seems like a decent guy with a legitimate point of view.
Welcome to the board, Phoenix!
^ Our forum is pretty dead, gotta vent somewhere...
Quote from: VU2014 on March 05, 2017, 05:48:07 PM
Probably sums up the Horizon League HQ's emotions right now...
https://twitter.com/LukePurcy/status/838536124268179456
Milwaukee's ceiling is the roof!!!!!
Quote from: yayphoenixyay on March 06, 2017, 07:47:29 PM
The only consolation would be if the winning coach of the tournament was anointed "Little Caesar" by LeCrone while all 20 fans shower him with pepperoni from the seats after the final buzzer has sounded.
To see that actually happen wouldn't have surprised me at this tournament.
Quote from: valpopal on March 06, 2017, 11:28:23 AM
LeCrone protests too much as he spins for the media and directs his staff to do so as well: "We weren't disappointed with an outcome," LeCrone said... "We met as a staff and said, 'That was great' (the excitement and atmosphere). Nobody was pouting, nobody was glum, nobody had their lower lip stuck out because Oakland lost. I tell the staff all the time, what happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. We weren't one bit disappointed, not a bit. We were actually energized. That's what I didn't want characterized, that we were disappointed. We weren't."
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/)
I have to agree with LeCrone. It doesn't seem quiet in the arena, the games have been exciting and I, myself, have not been disappointed.
I think it just makes you guys feel better to poo poo what has become an exciting and entertaining tournament. If you guys want to sit at home, complain all you want about this tournament.
You are the ones missing out. I have enjoyed this tournament immensely. You guys really
are missing out. Downtown Detroit is a whole lot more entertaining then I would have imagined. Haven't seen any sign of a slum or crime problems.
Quote from: bbtds on March 07, 2017, 12:18:12 AMQuote from: valpopal on March 06, 2017, 11:28:23 AMLeCrone protests too much as he spins for the media and directs his staff to do so as well: "We weren't disappointed with an outcome," LeCrone said... "We met as a staff and said, 'That was great' (the excitement and atmosphere). Nobody was pouting, nobody was glum, nobody had their lower lip stuck out because Oakland lost. I tell the staff all the time, what happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. We weren't one bit disappointed, not a bit. We were actually energized. That's what I didn't want characterized, that we were disappointed. We weren't." http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/)
I have to agree with LeCrone. It doesn't seem quiet in the arena, the games have been exciting and I, myself, have not been disappointed. I think it just makes you guys feel better to poo poo what has become an exciting and entertaining tournament. If you guys want to sit at home, complain all you want about this tournament. You are the ones missing out. I have enjoyed this tournament immensely. You guys really are missing out. Downtown Detroit is a whole lot more entertaining then I would have imagined. Haven't seen any sign of a slum or crime problems.
Barring a 16-seed play-in game (and even then, maybe), the HL representative is going to get murdered in their first game of the NCAA's. There's your crime problem.
With Milwaukee making it to the HL Final, I'm not even mad about Valpo losing anymore. More amused than anything. The only word I can come up with for this year's edition of the HLT is a "spectacle", and I'm not sure that's a good thing.
Quote from: hailcrusaders on March 07, 2017, 12:33:46 AM
Quote from: bbtds on March 07, 2017, 12:18:12 AMQuote from: valpopal on March 06, 2017, 11:28:23 AMLeCrone protests too much as he spins for the media and directs his staff to do so as well: "We weren't disappointed with an outcome," LeCrone said... "We met as a staff and said, 'That was great' (the excitement and atmosphere). Nobody was pouting, nobody was glum, nobody had their lower lip stuck out because Oakland lost. I tell the staff all the time, what happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. We weren't one bit disappointed, not a bit. We were actually energized. That's what I didn't want characterized, that we were disappointed. We weren't." http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/)
I have to agree with LeCrone. It doesn't seem quiet in the arena, the games have been exciting and I, myself, have not been disappointed. I think it just makes you guys feel better to poo poo what has become an exciting and entertaining tournament. If you guys want to sit at home, complain all you want about this tournament. You are the ones missing out. I have enjoyed this tournament immensely. You guys really are missing out. Downtown Detroit is a whole lot more entertaining then I would have imagined. Haven't seen any sign of a slum or crime problems.
Barring a 16-seed play-in game (and even then, maybe), the HL representative is going to get murdered in their first game of the NCAA's. There's your crime problem.
That may be true but if so, then Valpo, Oakland or Green Bay would also be killed. I'm guessing NKU will win the title. I don't doubt they will be a 14 or 15 seed, but they are a worthy representative. If they win they will be 24-10. They beat everyone accept Oakland.We lost games to Oakland by 12 and 11 points. They lost to Oakland by 11 and 9 points. They lost to us at Valpo, with Alec, by 7 points. Again, if they win, then they will have won 9 of 10 games played since losing to Valpo. They have some very good young players and in any event will be a force next year in an improving Horizon.
NKU has certainly brought more to the conference at this stage than I envisioned in my wildest dreams, for that I am grateful. They are the best representative that we can hope for at this point, but I don't know that it makes them worthy...
Quote from: vu72 on March 07, 2017, 08:26:32 AMI don't doubt they will be a 14 or 15 seed
I seriously doubt they get a 14 seed, and even if they do I don't know how much difference it will make .
Mike and Mike were talking about the Horizon League and Monmouth's conference calling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab. This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling when you consider that they are the authoritative figure on ethics and are able to rule a player out for the season based on their own moral judgment.
Well NKU has gone next level...
https://twitter.com/iTwitch_/status/838813974372225024
Do we hope Milwaukee wins tonight so they get a play in game and have a chance to "win an NCAA tournament" game and a payout??
This is the nation's impression of the Horizon League tournament, what LeCrone described as an exciting and energized environment. ???
[tweet]838905785295978501[/tweet]
[tweet]838905891952918530[/tweet]
Quote from: VUOR63 on March 07, 2017, 10:08:47 AMMike and Mike were talking about the Horizon League and Monmouth's conference calling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab. This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling when you consider that they are the authoritative figure on ethics and are able to rule a player out for the season based on their own moral judgment.
and those on this board can continue a trail of "woe is us" without knowing the full scope of the story.
Quote from: bsmith21 on March 07, 2017, 11:09:57 AM
QuoteThis is the nation's impression of the Horizon League tournament, what LeCrone described as an exciting and energized environment.
If you makes you feel any better most of the nation probably isn't thinking about us. We'll also probably be referred to more as the conference Butler used to be in this month anyway.
On the other hand, if Milwaukee wins (which I hope since the HL might get some more money from a play-in game), the Horizon League will be known as the conference that sent to the NCAA the team with the most losses ever in the tournament.
I love how the big black curtains add to the "excitement" of the tournament.
"Pay no attention to the man behind ... uh, the empty seats behind the curtains."
Quote from: valpopal on March 07, 2017, 11:29:45 AMOn the other hand, if Milwaukee wins (which I hope since the HL might get some more money from a play-in game), the Horizon League will be known as the conference that sent to the NCAA the team with the most losses ever in the tournament.
If NKU wins (my preference) LeCrone will stress his tireless efforts to bring them into the Horizon. If UWM wins he will figure out some other way to promote his leadership accomplishments and brag up the equity of the new format.
We need to discontinue his services. I do not want to hear this man try to take any credit for the now almost inevitable HL 17-18 RPI improvements.
Per ESPNs Jeff Goodman, the Horizon Semi-final was the last game for Jerry Slocum, as he has officially stepped down and retired at YSU.
Imagine if Cleveland State goes ahead and fires Gary Waters, that'd make Kampe the longest tentured Horizon League head coach....
I honestly think if Waters stays, the Vikings could be a contender for a 5-6 seed next year. Lots of experience on the team and Rob Edwards is pretty good.
In total opposition to my last post, per NBC Sports, Gary Waters is OUT at CSU.
Is Matt Lottich on the hot seat now?
Caught the end of the UDM-UWGB WBB title game. Phoenix are going to their 17th NCAA dance -- yayphoenixyay, you must be happy. But I posted this because in watching this afternoon's title game on ESPNU, I was struck by how loud and energetic the 250-300 fans there were. Then it dawned on me that the game was in Detroit and UDM was one of the teams playing. There was a small cluster of UWGB parents and fans there but they weren't as loud as the UDM fans.
I personally don't really pay attention to the women's team. They are certainly more popular in the Green Bay area and when you talk about the "Phoenix" people generally assume you're talking about the women's team. I think for me, it boils down to "success fatigue" where its not even fun to watch them roll teams by 50 on the path to their guaranteed NCAA berth every year. I'm certainly happy for them, but I'd gladly trade their success to the men's team at any second.
Left Detroit after our loss. Arrived at my Birmingham hotel only to find Thst my room is in the middle of the UTEP MBB block A 4 seed in the C-USA tournament. I'll watch to see how many fans are reported in attendance
Two hours ago I correctly predicted Gary Waters' demise, I must be psychic. Anybody want me to get rid of anyone else? John Groce? Tom Crean? Greg Kampe?
(btw Jon LeCrone, I'm also an "RPI expert")
Quote from: jloose128 on March 07, 2017, 04:02:04 PM
Two hours ago I correctly predicted Gary Waters' demise, I must be psychic. Anybody want me to get rid of anyone else? John Groce? Tom Crean? Greg Kampe?
(btw Jon LeCrone, I'm also an "RPI expert")
How about Jon LeCrone himself...
Everybody notice Jubril is still the star of the Valparaiso University promotional commercial shown on ESPN during the championship game? ::)
After the HL Championship was over (congrats to the Norse), ESPN flips to the broadcast of the NEC championship, hosted by #1 seed Mount St. Mary's, who won the game in front of a PACKED HOUSE
"NEC did it the right way, they play the game at the #1 seed's home court" say the ESPN analysts after the game.
I'm sorry for "beating a dead horse" or whatever, but those of us on this board are not the only ones who have this opinion.
Quote from: hailcrusaders on March 07, 2017, 07:57:56 PM
After the HL Championship was over (congrats to the Norse), ESPN flips to the broadcast of the NEC championship, hosted by #1 seed Mount St. Mary's, who won the game in front of a PACKED HOUSE
"NEC did it the right way, they play the game at the #1 seed's home court" say the ESPN analysts after the game.
I'm sorry for "beating a dead horse" or whatever, but those of us on this board are not the only ones who have this opinion.
Ya beat me to it, Jay Williams of ESPN hit the nail on the head. This tournament should have been at Oakland.
Quote from: bbtds on March 07, 2017, 12:18:12 AM
Quote from: valpopal on March 06, 2017, 11:28:23 AM
LeCrone protests too much as he spins for the media and directs his staff to do so as well: "We weren't disappointed with an outcome," LeCrone said... "We met as a staff and said, 'That was great' (the excitement and atmosphere). Nobody was pouting, nobody was glum, nobody had their lower lip stuck out because Oakland lost. I tell the staff all the time, what happens in the rectangle, we have no control over. We weren't one bit disappointed, not a bit. We were actually energized. That's what I didn't want characterized, that we were disappointed. We weren't."
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/06/horizon-tourneys-success-ou-udm-shoulders/98805574/)
I have to agree with LeCrone. It doesn't seem quiet in the arena, the games have been exciting and I, myself, have not been disappointed.
I think it just makes you guys feel better to poo poo what has become an exciting and entertaining tournament. If you guys want to sit at home, complain all you want about this tournament. You are the ones missing out. I have enjoyed this tournament immensely. You guys really are missing out. Downtown Detroit is a whole lot more entertaining then I would have imagined. Haven't seen any sign of a slum or crime problems.
BBTDS,
Thanks for coming and being so open minded. glad you had fun.
Hell, Milw even made the title game exciting and it appeared both teams had support tonight.
Next year we will be in the new arena and have the Qline being able to take people from downtown to midtown no problem.
Watching our old Summit League hold their championship on ESPN 2, and the announcers are praising the attendance figures, full arena of almost 12,000 for the semifinals last night and again for the final game tonight. The atmosphere is truly "energized."
Quote from: valpopal on March 07, 2017, 08:19:53 PM
Watching our old Summit League hold their championship on ESPN 2, and the announcers are praising the attendance figures, full arena of almost 12,000 for the semifinals last night and again for the final game tonight. The atmosphere is truly "energized."
And if Oakland doesn't choke, there are 15-20K at JLA tonight
Quote from: valpopal on March 07, 2017, 08:19:53 PMWatching our old Summit League hold their championship on ESPN 2, and the announcers are praising the attendance figures, full arena of almost 12,000 for the semifinals last night and again for the final game tonight. The atmosphere is truly "energized."
Summit has a similar setup with the "neutral site" (don't tell IPFW) conference tournament in Sioux Falls, within two hours drive of SDSU and USD, and three hours of UNO. And, lo and behold, we have SDSU and UNO in the championship, so it had better sell well.
ESPN was consistently hammering the HL and some other mid major conferences (although they used the HL because the top 2 seeds went down as the example) for even playing a tournament and that, in a one bid league, there should be regular season winner and that's all.
Quote from: VU2624 on March 07, 2017, 09:17:06 PM
ESPN was consistently hammering the HL and some other mid major conferences (although they used the HL because the top 2 seeds went down as the example) for even playing a tournament and that, in a one bid league, there should be regular season winner and that's all.
That's odd, because ESPN gets lots of programming from these mid-major conference tourneys. I understand the disappointment when a clear cut mid-major champion doesn't get in, but would everyone here be thrilled if Oakland got the NCAAT bid this year due to a tie-breaker? I doubt it.
Quote from: VUOR63 on March 07, 2017, 10:08:47 AMcalling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab. This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling
The #1, #2 and #3 seeds rendered the season meaningless by losing to the the #9, #10 and #6 seeds in the HLT. There is no reason that what happened should have happened. Valpo losing Peters was a major factor but they still should have beaten Milwaukee.
FWIW, the championship game tonight came across pretty well on TV. Both schools brought a fair amount of fans. The winner, NKU is a worthy champion ... top 100 RPI and won 9 of their last 10. Not a total disaster, IMO. They are playing well right now and did what was needed, ie. winning games on a neutral court when they knew that had to. Hats off to them.
Quote from: zvillehaze on March 07, 2017, 09:35:55 PM
FWIW, the championship game tonight came across pretty well on TV. Both schools brought a fair amount of fans. The winner, NKU is a worthy champion ... top 100 RPI and won 9 of their last 10. Not a total disaster, IMO. They are playing well right now and did what was needed, ie. winning games on a neutral court when they knew that had to. Hats off to them.
True, Northern Kentucky was the least embarrassing alternative to Oakland and certainly a depleted Valpo.
But, the Norse need to send thank you cards to the folks at Green Bay for injuring Alec Peters and changing the outcome of not only the tournament but the regular season as well.
Quote from: bbtds on March 07, 2017, 09:33:38 PM
Quote from: VUOR63 on March 07, 2017, 10:08:47 AMcalling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab. This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling
The #1, #2 and #3 seeds rendered the season meaningless by losing to the the #9, #10 and #6 seeds in the HLT. There is no reason that what happened should have happened. Valpo losing Peters was a major factor but they still should have beaten Milwaukee.
Does being the only one who gets it ever give you pause?
Quote from: Valpo89 on March 07, 2017, 09:41:15 PM
Quote from: zvillehaze on March 07, 2017, 09:35:55 PM
FWIW, the championship game tonight came across pretty well on TV. Both schools brought a fair amount of fans. The winner, NKU is a worthy champion ... top 100 RPI and won 9 of their last 10. Not a total disaster, IMO. They are playing well right now and did what was needed, ie. winning games on a neutral court when they knew that had to. Hats off to them.
True, Northern Kentucky was the least embarrassing alternative to Oakland and certainly a depleted Valpo.
But, the Norse need to send thank you cards to the folks at Green Bay for injuring Alec Peters and changing the outcome of not only the tournament but the regular season as well.
The HL avoided a total disaster by the skin of its teeth. A Milwaukee win would have given the HL the absolute last entry in the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: bbtds on March 07, 2017, 09:33:38 PM
Quote from: VUOR63 on March 07, 2017, 10:08:47 AMcalling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab. This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling
The #1, #2 and #3 seeds rendered the season meaningless by losing to the the #9, #10 and #6 seeds in the HLT. There is no reason that what happened should have happened. Valpo losing Peters was a major factor but they still should have beaten Milwaukee.
Thanks to bbtds for being the voice of reason. If your "best" teams can't beat bottom feeders on a neutral court in the league tourney, why do you think they could beat a top three seed in the NCAAT on a neutral court? NKU is the deserving champ and I hope they do well in the NCAAT. They earned the right to try.
Also, leave the NCAA out of this. The conferences, not the NCAA, determine who they send to the NCAAT. If the HL wants to send the regular season champ, they can. And by the "HL", I don't mean LeCrone, I mean the member schools. LeCrone is an easy target, but he works for your presidents and anything the HL does is approved by your presidents. I suggest you send your complaints to them.
wh posted while I was typing, so kudos to him also.
Quote from: motowntitan on March 07, 2017, 08:11:02 PMBBTDS,
Thanks for coming and being so open minded. glad you had fun.
Hell, Milw even made the title game exciting and it appeared both teams had support tonight.
Next year we will be in the new arena and have the Qline being able to take people from downtown to midtown no problem.
Thanks for your city's hospitality.
We did drive around the construction site of the new Little Caesar's Arena. I saw those railroad tracks running down the street and imagined they were for a new transit line.
BTW, we were able to park down on Jefferson Street by the Post Office for free on the street. It was a 7 block walk but it was good for us who could use the exercise. It saved us $15 per day. The Olympia Staff were some very good people. I imagine they were disappointed that there weren't bigger crowds for the HLT but they did an excellent job. Red Wing season ticket holders were able to get a free ticket to the HLT championship day so some of them were also in the crowd tonight.
What's the rpi of all HL teams?
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 07, 2017, 03:49:18 PM
Caught the end of the UDM-UWGB WBB title game. Phoenix are going to their 17th NCAA dance -- yayphoenixyay, you must be happy. But I posted this because in watching this afternoon's title game on ESPNU, I was struck by how loud and energetic the 250-300 fans there were. Then it dawned on me that the game was in Detroit and UDM was one of the teams playing. There was a small cluster of UWGB parents and fans there but they weren't as loud as the UDM fans.
I would disagree with that being at the Joe during the game. I thought that the "green" group wasn't as loud as the "red" group but they did fine with their numbers.
Quote from: zvillehaze on March 07, 2017, 09:55:26 PM
Quote from: bbtds on March 07, 2017, 09:33:38 PM
Quote from: VUOR63 on March 07, 2017, 10:08:47 AMcalling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab. This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling
The #1, #2 and #3 seeds rendered the season meaningless by losing to the the #9, #10 and #6 seeds in the HLT. There is no reason that what happened should have happened. Valpo losing Peters was a major factor but they still should have beaten Milwaukee.
Thanks to bbtds for being the voice of reason. If your "best" teams can't beat bottom feeders on a neutral court in the league tourney, why do you think they could beat a top three seed in the NCAAT on a neutral court? NKU is the deserving champ and I hope they do well in the NCAAT. They earned the right to try.
Has a Sweet 16 participant ever lost to a bad team before? You're essentially saying NKU has a better chance of beating a 2 seed than Oakland had a 3 or 4 because Oakland lost to a bad team in the conference tournament. Do you think Vegas would make NKU less of an underdog as a 15 than Oakland as a 14?
It's been said a million times, but sending the most "deserving" team based on some moral code shouldn't be the point. We're arguing that mid majors should tilt their tournament towards the highest seed in an effort to get the best possible seed into the NCAA tournament. This is done by making them play less games (double bye), and having the top teams play home games. It's not about fairness, or which team deserves the tournament more - it's strictly about generating a better seed for the NCAA tournament, which statically will increase the league's odds for winning tournament games.
Ok I'm going back on my statement that my last post would be the only one this season. However, NKU winning the tournament in only their second year in the league and the first year of eligibility forces me to comment. When NKU made the transition from DII to DI they were looking for a league to join. One of their officials made some comments to the media that indicated they hoped to join the Horizon League. As these comments were reported in the Cincinnati newspaper I posted to that effect on this forum. A certain sometime poster I presume with connections to Wright State took me to task on how silly this notion was and that his connections at Wright State "laughed" at the mere idea that NKU would be considered for membership. I responded that NKU was a very successful DII program and there was no reason to think they wouldn't ultimately transition to a successful DI mid major. Nothing to laugh at. At the time, NKU joined another league.
Oddly enough a few years later, I guess the Wright State officials stopped laughing long enough for the league to invite NKU to join. Now that NKU will be representing the Horizon League in the big dance I wonder, is anyone connected to Wright State still laughing?
I'm a Valpo grad and fan who wishes this season had finished the way it started for Valpo and with a trip to the big dance. But I've lived in Northern KY for 38 years so I will confess that if Valpo didn't win the conference tournament, I am glad it was NKU. So congrats to NKU. You have every reason to be proud. Good luck in the dance. And to those connected to that school somewhat north of Cincinnati, I want you to know I'm having a chuckle at your expense and toasting NKU with a Woodford Reserve right now.
Quote from: nkvu on March 07, 2017, 10:57:22 PM
Ok I'm going back on my statement that my last post would be the only one this season. However, NKU winning the tournament in only their second year in the league and the first year of eligibility forces me to comment. When NKU made the transition from DII to DI they were looking for a league to join. One of their officials made some comments to the media that indicated they hoped to join the Horizon League. As these comments were reported in the Cincinnati newspaper I posted to that effect on this forum. A certain sometime poster I presume with connections to Wright State took me to task on how silly this notion was and that his connections at Wright State "laughed" at the mere idea that NKU would be considered for membership. I responded that NKU was a very successful DII program and there was no reason to think they wouldn't ultimately transition to a successful DI mid major. Nothing to laugh at. At the time, NKU joined another league.
Oddly enough a few years later, I guess the Wright State officials stopped laughing long enough for the league to invite NKU to join. Now that NKVU will be representing the Horizon League in the big dance I wonder, is anyone connected to Wright State still laughing?
I'm a Valpo grad and fan who wishes this season had finished the way it started for Valpo and with a trip to the big dance. But I've lived in Northern KY for 38 years so I will confess that if Valpo didn't win the conference tournament, I am glad it was NKU. So congrats to NKU. You have every reason to be proud. Good luck in the dance. And to those connected to that school somewhat north of Cincinnati, I want you to know I'm having a chuckle at your expense and toasting NKU with a Woodford Reserve right now.
From 2011
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.0
When NKU joined:
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2188.0
Quote from: a3uge on March 08, 2017, 06:15:45 AM
From 2011
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.0
When NKU joined:
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2188.0
Excelent Detective work a3uge! I will admit that this was not my preferred invitee and that I am pleasantly surprised at NKU's ability to compete at this level. Congratulations on making the dance!
Quote from: a3uge on March 08, 2017, 06:15:45 AM
Quote from: nkvu on March 07, 2017, 10:57:22 PM
Ok I'm going back on my statement that my last post would be the only one this season. However, NKU winning the tournament in only their second year in the league and the first year of eligibility forces me to comment. When NKU made the transition from DII to DI they were looking for a league to join. One of their officials made some comments to the media that indicated they hoped to join the Horizon League. As these comments were reported in the Cincinnati newspaper I posted to that effect on this forum. A certain sometime poster I presume with connections to Wright State took me to task on how silly this notion was and that his connections at Wright State "laughed" at the mere idea that NKU would be considered for membership. I responded that NKU was a very successful DII program and there was no reason to think they wouldn't ultimately transition to a successful DI mid major. Nothing to laugh at. At the time, NKU joined another league.
Oddly enough a few years later, I guess the Wright State officials stopped laughing long enough for the league to invite NKU to join. Now that NKVU will be representing the Horizon League in the big dance I wonder, is anyone connected to Wright State still laughing?
I'm a Valpo grad and fan who wishes this season had finished the way it started for Valpo and with a trip to the big dance. But I've lived in Northern KY for 38 years so I will confess that if Valpo didn't win the conference tournament, I am glad it was NKU. So congrats to NKU. You have every reason to be proud. Good luck in the dance. And to those connected to that school somewhat north of Cincinnati, I want you to know I'm having a chuckle at your expense and toasting NKU with a Woodford Reserve right now.
From 2011
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.0
When NKU joined:
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2188.0
Let's go back a little farther than that:
http://valpofans.proboards.com/thread/4590/conference-realignment?page=1
Indeed, congrats to NKU on their tourney championship this year, and they've done a great job turning their program around.
(That doesn't change the fact that adding a transitioning and still-bad NKU to the HL last year instead of this year - when they were finally eligible for postseason - cost Valpo an at-large bid last March by forcing two more RPI-drag games on to everyone's schedule. So even when the HL leadership makes an addition that seems to work out, they still completely botch the timing to the conference's detriment).
NKU is an impressive team. Drew McDonald is a stud and I wish we had him. Unfortunately for us he is only a soph.
LeCrone must be smiling with these numbers for tourney attendance. How close to accurate is anyone's guess.
Ran across this tweet from Cam Fuller @CFuller_HL
#MotorCityMadness total attendance of 29,240 represents a 40% year-over-year growth. Next year the the madness moves to in @LCA_Detroit. https://t.co/5zViTbZZjd
QuoteLeCrone must be smiling with these numbers for tourney attendance. How close to accurate is anyone's guess.
Ran across this tweet from Cam Fuller @CFuller_HL
#MotorCityMadness total attendance of 29,240 represents a 40% year-over-year growth. Next year the the madness moves to in @LCA_Detroit.
https://t.co/5zViTbZZjd
https://twitter.com/CFuller_HL/status/839303038678548481
40% increase but you have to factor in this year we added the women's games to the Tournament, which is double the games from last year.
To give context Arch Madness in 2016 drew drew 50,021 in 26th year of the event. BUT, Arch Madness is only Men's games.
http://www.hoopville.com/2015/03/11/final-arch-madness-notes-mvc-still-in-good-hands-in-st-louis/
The total attendance announced by the Horizon League for the entire tournament (men and women) is 29,240, and the league is boasting a 40% increase. However, let's look at the numbers so that we are clear where the 40% is created.
The attendance in 2016 was 20,908. The Horizon League figure seems to count all in attendance, not just paid. Of course, those who bought session tickets were counted five times (once each day) this year whether they attended or not, and only four times last year (a 25% increase). Due to the addition of the women this year, there were 18 games instead of nine. Therefore, the attendance per game was 1,624. Last year, the attendance per game was 2,323. However, the Horizon League does not take attendance per game, they do so per session (day). There were five sessions this year: 5,848 per day. Last year there were four sessions: 5,227 per day. We can conclude the attendance for women's games was lower than for the men's games, but I also would think the attendance for women's games was down, since in 2016 the tournament was held on campus in Green Bay, which had an average attendance over 2,500 for regular season women's games.
So, if you add a day and count each session ticket holder one more time this year, plus you add the attendance for women's games, and you count all attendees instead of just paid ticket holders, you get the Horizon League numbers. Consequently, to quote Chevy Chase to Rusty in "Vacation," that 40% increase is "nothing to be proud about."
Quote from: valpopal on March 08, 2017, 12:37:57 PM
The total attendance announced by the Horizon League for the entire tournament (men and women) is 29,240, and the league is boasting a 40% increase. However, let's look at the numbers so that we are clear where the 40% is created.
The attendance in 2016 was 20,908. The Horizon League figure seems to count all in attendance, not just paid. Of course, those who bought session tickets were counted five times (once each day) this year whether they attended or not, and only four times last year (a 20% increase). Due to the addition of the women this year, there were 18 games instead of nine. Therefore, the attendance per game was 1,624. Last year, the attendance per game was 2,323. However, the Horizon League does not take attendance per game, they do so per session (day). There were five sessions this year: 5,848 per day. Last year there were four sessions: 5,227 per day. We can conclude the attendance for women's games was lower than for the men's games, but I also would think the attendance for women's games was down, since in 2016 the tournament was held on campus in Green Bay, which had an average attendance over 2,500 for regular season women's games.
So, if you add a day and count each session ticket holder one more time this year, plus you add the attendance for women's games, and you count all attendees instead of just paid ticket holders, you get the Horizon League numbers. Consequently, to quote Chevy Chase to Rusty in "Vacation," that 40% increase is "nothing to be proud about."
The number of traffic fatalities over the last July 4th holiday weekend was 33% higher than the prior year. Shocking!
Whoops, I "forgot" to mention that this year was a 4-day holiday weekend; last year was a 3-day. Never mind...
Don't forget to add in the Red Wing season ticket holders for the final session. Oh yes, and did the tourney again provide free bands to the participants? And did someone say that each school receives $20,000 per year from Tourney receipts or from whoever? Wow! Quite a deal.
Has anyone else here checked out NKUs message board?
http://www.norsefans.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=5a243d90fdca9060b654756c28e69c1f
There's like 1 guy on the NKU board, is there something specific that stood out?
I saw the same pattern -- total replies for each string in single digits mostly. Some views were up to 175. There are 3 categories BB, BB recruiting and Olympic sports or something.
Wright State fan here. I enjoy reading your board occasionally. To the NKU fan. I thought NKU was a great addition to the league. It made sense geographically and maybe gives Wright State a bit of a rival. I was a Cincy Bearcats fan as well growing up and remember several times NKU taking a beating as D2 team from the Bearcats. But it's no surprise that they are going to be a good program being in the basketball rich area of Cincinnati/Kentucky. A few other thoughts from a non Valpo fan!...
-Jon Lecrone mentioned possibly having the tournament in Chicago or Indy in the future. I like the Indy idea a little better. I think the league gets lost in the shuffle in Chicago. There's too much going on in Chicago for people to notice the Horizon League tournament. They may not notice it much in Detroit, but I'd say there is a little better chance.
-I understand the frustration of some of you Valpo fans, but the bigger question is how do the top 3 teams in the league lose to 3 of the bottom teams in the league? And Valpo and Oakland both losing in the first game two years in a row? For Oakland I think it's more embarrassing and makes you question the makeup of their team (not talent wise but maybe mentally, leadership wise)
-The most exciting game I have been to probably in my life was Wright State hosting Butler in the horizon league championship game and winning it in 2007. Hard to duplicate an on campus championship game with so much on the line.
-Personally I wish Wright State was in the MAC. To be with all those schools in Ohio makes sense to me, with lots of rivalries.
-The MAC has a pretty good thing going in Cleveland, MVC in St. Louis...If Horizon sticks to it maybe that happens. The problem might be putting hope in Detroit and Oakland being good tourney teams.
-The basketball in the Horizon is pretty decent overall I'd say. Hopefully next year the league is better as a whole and the top teams actually do well in the Horizon League tournament in the new stadium. We'll see!
Does anyone know the break-even point in attendance, etc for the Tourney? Are figures available showing income/expenses?
They will never see the light of day.
Quote from: a3uge on March 07, 2017, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: zvillehaze on March 07, 2017, 09:55:26 PM
Quote from: bbtds on March 07, 2017, 09:33:38 PM
Quote from: VUOR63 on March 07, 2017, 10:08:47 AMcalling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab. This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling
The #1, #2 and #3 seeds rendered the season meaningless by losing to the the #9, #10 and #6 seeds in the HLT. There is no reason that what happened should have happened. Valpo losing Peters was a major factor but they still should have beaten Milwaukee.
Thanks to bbtds for being the voice of reason. If your "best" teams can't beat bottom feeders on a neutral court in the league tourney, why do you think they could beat a top three seed in the NCAAT on a neutral court? NKU is the deserving champ and I hope they do well in the NCAAT. They earned the right to try.
Has a Sweet 16 participant ever lost to a bad team before? You're essentially saying NKU has a better chance of beating a 2 seed than Oakland had a 3 or 4 because Oakland lost to a bad team in the conference tournament. Do you think Vegas would make NKU less of an underdog as a 15 than Oakland as a 14?
It's been said a million times, but sending the most "deserving" team based on some moral code shouldn't be the point. We're arguing that mid majors should tilt their tournament towards the highest seed in an effort to get the best possible seed into the NCAA tournament. This is done by making them play less games (double bye), and having the top teams play home games. It's not about fairness, or which team deserves the tournament more - it's strictly about generating a better seed for the NCAA tournament, which statically will increase the league's odds for winning tournament games.
For small conferences, Championship Week does more harm than good (http://thecomeback.com/ncaa/small-conferences-championship-week-more-harm-good.html)
QuoteIn recent years, nearly two-thirds of mid- and low-major regular season champs have been left out of the NCAA Tournament. Meanwhile, teams with losing records have become the norm on Selection Sunday. Sub-.500 teams have made appearances for five straight seasons now, with last year's 14-19 Holy Cross squad arguably being the worst of all.
QuoteMeanwhile, instead of a small payout near (or less than) $300,000 for most conferences, they could be making smarter long- and short-term investments by sending their best teams to the NCAA Tournament. These leagues are potentially leaving millions on the table each year as a result.
QuoteHowever, by sending their best teams, those leagues would stand a chance to increase their shares of the constantly climbing total. The millions earned from advancing in the NCAA Tournament and the resulting exposure would more than make up for any short-term loss on Championship Week.
That article from The Comeback is great and should be on the desk of every mid-major AD by the morning. I'm becoming more convinced that all mid-major leagues are currently being willing marks by helping to perpetuate the problem.
Until the NCAA reforms the at-large process, prioritizing strong mid-majors and de-emphasizing mediocre Power 5 squads, or expands the tourney, mid-major leagues should be awarding their at-large bids to their regular season champ. (Or limiting any tourney/playoffs to situations when there's a tie for the regular season title - that's much better decided on the court than on paper).
Quote from: valpo04 on March 08, 2017, 07:58:08 PM
For small conferences, Championship Week does more harm than good (http://thecomeback.com/ncaa/small-conferences-championship-week-more-harm-good.html)
"The two-week long basketball bonanza has largely served as a reward for failing to handle your business in the regular season, while punishing teams that succeeded in conference play. It played out like that for Belmont and others already this month. Their season was a one-game playoff, despite the dominance up to that point."
This article should be required reading before anyone is allowed to defend the current HL tournament format. This also confirms that the HL Athletic Directors that designed the double bye, top seed hosted format in 2002 knew exactly what they were doing.
Maybe we need to start a "let's make the Horizon League great again" campaign.
^ I don't know if using a slogan like that would attract the right clientele/support...
My proposal is a 6 team playoff, top two seeds get byes to the semi-finals, all games are hosted by the higher seed, games are every other night. How hard is that?
That makes too much sense.
I like the proposal, now will it be in Detroit? >:(
Quote from: wh on March 08, 2017, 09:18:38 PM
This article should be required reading before anyone is allowed to defend the current HL tournament format. This also confirms that the HL Athletic Directors that designed the double bye, top seed hosted format in 2002 knew exactly what they were doing.
Quote from: wh on March 28, 2011, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: zvillehaze on March 28, 2011, 09:41:35 PM
The real lesson learned from 2002 is that you can be good (25-5), beat good teams (Purdue and eventual National Runner-up IU) and still be excluded from the NCAA tourney if you're from a mid-major conference and don't have a stellar RPI.
Your echo of your former A.D.'s cry baby rant sounds exactly like fans from the D-1 Major world (and discussed this morning with Jay Bilas on Mike and Mike) calling to "blow up" the current NCAA tournament format and start over in the aftermath of 11th-seeded VCU's upset win over no.1 seeded Kansas. The same lame logic is being used by people who just can't accept that their precious elitist team's season is over because of one bad game to a clearly inferior upstart opponent that no one has ever heard of and that they would beat 20 times out of the next 20 they play. Hopefully in this case, these rants will be ignored and labeled for they are - sour grapes from highly immature people who think life revolves around them. Exactly what should have been done in 2002.
Quote from: wh on March 28, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
The most ridiculous spin I have ever heard in my life goes back to 2002. It is one of the primary reasons given to legitimize the double bye tournament process (and disguise the real reason for the change). It goes something like this: Double bye format = best team in the tournament @ the highest possible seed = more tournament wins = more recognition for the Horizon League = better recruiting opportunities for everyone. I will repeat what I have said many times. There are no crumbs from the Butler table for the rest of us. All this format does is help the team on top stay on top. In fact, it makes recruiting even more difficult. We're now trying to attract players to come play in the league that Butler owns.
I feel like I don't even know you anymore.
On a side note, the tournament format change in 2003 that was apparently done to benefit Butler never really did that. They won two tourney championships on their home court in 2008 and 2010 ... they would have clearly earned an at-large in both of those seasons.
Quote from: wh on March 28, 2011, 11:08:49 PMThe same lame logic is being used by people who just can't accept that their precious elitist team's season is over because of one bad game to a clearly inferior upstart opponent that no one has ever heard of and that they would beat 20 times out of the next 20 they play. Hopefully in this case, these rants will be ignored and labeled for they are - sour grapes from highly immature people who think life revolves around them.
This could also apply to many posts made on this board over the last few days.
Quote from: Valpo89 on March 08, 2017, 03:03:02 PM
There's like 1 guy on the NKU board, is there something specific that stood out?
Two things:
1) The name NorseFans.com is literally a misnomer, because there are not yet two of them.
2) I really admire the tenacity of someone who posted nearly 300 times without a response from any fellow fans. One day when NKU's fan base has grown and there's more activity for them online, that poster will truly be able to say, "I was here before it was cool!"
Interesting take on it, Matt. Nice to see your post.
Quote2) I really admire the tenacity of someone who posted nearly 300 times without a response from any fellow fans. One day when NKU's fan base has grown and there's more activity for them online, that poster will truly be able to say, "I was here before it was cool!"
Nothing wrong with being the first NKU hipster!
Quote from: zvillehaze on March 08, 2017, 10:30:38 PM
Quote from: wh on March 08, 2017, 09:18:38 PM
This article should be required reading before anyone is allowed to defend the current HL tournament format. This also confirms that the HL Athletic Directors that designed the double bye, top seed hosted format in 2002 knew exactly what they were doing.
Quote from: wh on March 28, 2011, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: zvillehaze on March 28, 2011, 09:41:35 PM
The real lesson learned from 2002 is that you can be good (25-5), beat good teams (Purdue and eventual National Runner-up IU) and still be excluded from the NCAA tourney if you're from a mid-major conference and don't have a stellar RPI.
Your echo of your former A.D.'s cry baby rant sounds exactly like fans from the D-1 Major world (and discussed this morning with Jay Bilas on Mike and Mike) calling to "blow up" the current NCAA tournament format and start over in the aftermath of 11th-seeded VCU's upset win over no.1 seeded Kansas. The same lame logic is being used by people who just can't accept that their precious elitist team's season is over because of one bad game to a clearly inferior upstart opponent that no one has ever heard of and that they would beat 20 times out of the next 20 they play. Hopefully in this case, these rants will be ignored and labeled for they are - sour grapes from highly immature people who think life revolves around them. Exactly what should have been done in 2002.
Quote from: wh on March 28, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
The most ridiculous spin I have ever heard in my life goes back to 2002. It is one of the primary reasons given to legitimize the double bye tournament process (and disguise the real reason for the change). It goes something like this: Double bye format = best team in the tournament @ the highest possible seed = more tournament wins = more recognition for the Horizon League = better recruiting opportunities for everyone. I will repeat what I have said many times. There are no crumbs from the Butler table for the rest of us. All this format does is help the team on top stay on top. In fact, it makes recruiting even more difficult. We're now trying to attract players to come play in the league that Butler owns.
I feel like I don't even know you anymore.
I freely admit that my position regarding the double bye format has evolved over the past 10 years. Evolutionary thinking is what separates us from the apes. ;)
Quote from: yayphoenixyay on March 08, 2017, 09:44:40 PMall games are hosted by the higher seed
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 08, 2017, 10:24:52 PM
I like the proposal, now will it be in Detroit? >:(
Only if Detroit Mercy is the higher seed.
Quote from: wh on March 09, 2017, 07:30:14 PM
I freely admit that my position regarding the double bye format has evolved over the past 10 years. Evolutionary thinking is what separates us from the apes. ;)
Glad you're able to keep your sense of humor and took my comment in the spirit it was posted. :thumbsup:
I had posted a while back that we'd be taking a spring break trip to Detroit to watch the tourney. That didn't happen due to the disappointing loss Saturday night. We ended up going to Kalahari waterpark in Sandusky, and we had a great time. Saw some YSU fans there after their loss.
I'm planning on going next year to see it. Here's hoping Valpo manages to win a game. I think Valpo should schedule a game at the Little Caesars arena, either preseason, late-season neutral court game, or convince Oakland to play their home game there.
Congrats to NKU. Hope they shock someone.
It's a joke that good mid-majors can't make it to the dance because of RPI issues. There's no way an at large-bid should go to a power conference school with a losing conference record. Having at least a .500 conference record should be a requirement for an at-large bid. The major schools won't allow that to happen, but it would at least make the regular season more meaningful to them. Even a weak school that gets to host top 100 RPI teams is going to win a few of those games. Even the Cinderella NC State team was 8-6 in the ACC that year. And the 85 Villanova team had a winning conference record.
Another option I'd like to see is expand the NCAA Tournament by 32 teams so that regular season champions automatically qualify. That would be 32 teams with auto-bids in addition to the conference tournament champs. Have a bunch of play-in games to reward success during the regular season. That would allow the conferences to have tournaments in whatever format they wanted without penalizing top seeds.
The big schools won't want to give up their piece of the pie, so it probably won't happen, but a guy can dream.
Quote from: wh on March 09, 2017, 07:30:14 PMI freely admit that my position regarding the double bye format has evolved over the past 10 years. Evolutionary thinking is what separates us from the apes.
I never liked the double bye and never will. It was the home court that provided the advantage. Does that make me a Neanderthal?
I presume it will come as no surprise that outside of that turd of a game we played Saturday night, I had a blast in Detroit.
My absolute favorite game was NKU vs. Wright State. That game was breathtakingly exciting. I also thought most of it was played at a fairly high level. There were stretches when I almost got whiplash looking over at one of my friends with my best "Holy crap, did you see that play!" look, only to find the same look on their faces.
YSU-Oakland might have been just as entertaining, but I don't remember having quite the same reaction while it was going on. Maybe it was because I expected Cameron Morse to have a big night. I did *not* expect such a monster performance from Grant Benzinger.
I also enjoyed the UIC-GB game for a number of reasons (my irrational grudge against Turner Botz no doubt figured into the mix). It too had a lot of excitement.
And frankly, I was impressed by Milwaukee - except against us - the entire tournament. Part of me wanted them to win so I could see them play in Dayton, but I'm fine with NKU as well. They really impressed me.
I needed all that excitement on Sunday-Tuesday to wash away the turmoil in my mind over Saturday night, but the source of that turmoil was not the same as it was for some of you.
I heard Luke Gore talk about how the Valpo men declined to come a day early and have their shootaround to get familiar with JLA (and learned that we'd made the same decision last year). Someone indicated that Matt Lottich mentioned this too in his postgame press conference.
My initial reaction was: WTF??????? Why would we not jump at the chance to practice on the floor we'd be playing on (since we then complained about it after the game was over)?
I really still do not understand this decision, which was a Valpo decision, not an HL decision. I really did not know what to think as I walked back to my hotel. A lot of mindless speculation flooded into my head which I'm not going to regurgitate here because I don't feel like I have the full story. But I'm waiting to hear it, because I think it's important - not that there's anything magical about spending a half hour on the floor translating into winning the title, mind you, but because it seems like such a mysterious decision that I can't help wonder if there's something else going on. By the way, NKU also did not use their shootaround time, and they did just fine, so I'm not pinning Valpo's loss on that.
But after Sunday night, the questions remained, but the turmoil was gone. I really needed that evening session to cure the blues.
zvillehaze, I want you to know that I have remained consistent all these years since 2008: I loathe the double-bye/home court advantage format. Always have, always will ;) I won't inflict all the gory details of my position again since I've done it several times.
All in all, I had a blast. And except for the end zones, the lower bowl was fairly full Tuesday night. Milwaukee and NKU both brought a lot of fans. Somehow on Sunday night the "emptiness" of the stands totally escaped my attention - since I was there to watch the games and not the fans. Maybe it was all the noise the measly crowd managed to make as Grant Benzinger was hitting 3s from downtown with 3 guys draped all over him. Who knows.
I hope next year, Valpo commits to tourney prep a little more than they have so far.
I'm going to make a few observations here about our program that may ruffle a few feathers so take it as you will. I started becoming interested in VU basketball after the 1998 NCAA run to the sweet 16. One thing I have noticed since then is what I call a lack of mental toughness in our teams. Too often they play down to the level of the opposition. Too many times have our teams had superior seasons crushed by losses to teams they should have beaten in the conference tournament when it counted. Yes we had adversity this year. Still, how many UMW players would we rather have had then the ones we put on the court? Yet we lost. If I recall NKU was the other team that didn't take the pre tournament shoot around yet they won it all. Why didn't we? How many NKU players would we take above the ones we put on the court? Two max. Their post player was 6'7 yet he made our two 7 footers look like they had never played the game before.
Yes I know we didn't have Alec or Jabril this year. Well, we had them last year along with the Horizon League defensive player of the year and the point guard we wished we had had this year and we still couldn't get it done last year. Our teams, with very few exceptions, lack the mental toughness to refuse to lose to lesser teams when it counts. Until we figure this out I'm afraid we will continue to suffer through seasons of heightened expectations dashed come conference tournament time.
Quote from: RedHawk on March 09, 2017, 11:09:26 PM
I had posted a while back that we'd be taking a spring break trip to Detroit to watch the tourney. That didn't happen due to the disappointing loss Saturday night. We ended up going to Kalahari waterpark in Sandusky, and we had a great time. Saw some YSU fans there after their loss.
I'm planning on going next year to see it. Here's hoping Valpo manages to win a game. I think Valpo should schedule a game at the Little Caesars arena, either preseason, late-season neutral court game, or convince Oakland to play their home game there.
Congrats to NKU. Hope they shock someone.
It's a joke that good mid-majors can't make it to the dance because of RPI issues. There's no way an at large-bid should go to a power conference school with a losing conference record. Having at least a .500 conference record should be a requirement for an at-large bid. The major schools won't allow that to happen, but it would at least make the regular season more meaningful to them. Even a weak school that gets to host top 100 RPI teams is going to win a few of those games. Even the Cinderella NC State team was 8-6 in the ACC that year. And the 85 Villanova team had a winning conference record.
Another option I'd like to see is expand the NCAA Tournament by 32 teams so that regular season champions automatically qualify. That would be 32 teams with auto-bids in addition to the conference tournament champs. Have a bunch of play-in games to reward success during the regular season. That would allow the conferences to have tournaments in whatever format they wanted without penalizing top seeds.
The big schools won't want to give up their piece of the pie, so it probably won't happen, but a guy can dream.
I see RPI blamed for mid majors not getting at-large bids. It's important to note that Valpo had a better RPI than several middling power conference schools last year. It's always difficult to have a good RPI in a mid major conference because mid majors actually have to play road games. Pretty much nobody plays more than 1-2 road games ooc in power conferences, so every team's win/loss record is better than it should be (had there been some schedule balancing).
So the selection committee members (I don't think they're corrupt - I just think they're usually uninformed idiots) will ignore RPI when it comes to at large, because they've heard it is flawed (but they don't know in which way). Instead, they'll use even more egregious metrics like Top 25 RPI wins, and Top 50 RPI wins. Wait, didn't we just decide RPI was flawed? Why are we bracketing RPI now as if winning vs the 51st RPI team is not as crucial as winning vs the 50th RPI team? Furthermore, it's not the winning percentage vs top 25/50 teams that count, it's the quantity of wins, which makes most mid majors ineligible!
So it's not RPI's fault for leaving mid majors out, it's the selection committee's misuse and misunderstanding of the tool.
The real fix to this is start penalizing teams for playing no road games outside of conference. I doubt we'll ever see schedule balances where teams actually have to play on the road, but the selection committee can fix this issue themselves.
An interesting proposal of how to help the Best Mid-Major Teams not suffer from their own Conference Tournaments. Would have helped Valpo last year.
https://twitter.com/JonSolomonCBS/status/840205692275437568
Quote from: VU2014 on March 10, 2017, 01:44:59 PM
An interesting proposal of how to help the Best Mid-Major Teams not suffer from their own Conference Tournaments. Would have helped Valpo last year.
https://twitter.com/JonSolomonCBS/status/840205692275437568
I read the transcript of the podcast where he talked about this, and I thought at least one part of it was an absolute joke. I also question whether his idea would really result in that outcome or not. I feel like he was just flailing at best (and carrying water for the power conference teams at worst). He complained that Duke and UNC can't play everybody every year, as if that's what anybody is asking them to do. To say nothing of obscuring a very real and far less legitimate (though far more popular and applauded) response to the tune of "We have nothing to gain and everything to lose."
If I'm missing the gems with Bilas, so be it. I just can't get past the smugness for some reason.
Quote from: StlVUFan on March 10, 2017, 12:54:14 AM
zvillehaze, I want you to know that I have remained consistent all these years since 2008: I loathe the double-bye/home court advantage format. Always have, always will ;) I won't inflict all the gory details of my position again since I've done it several times.
Respect your opinion. Neutral court tourneys with both men and women are awesome for basketball junkies like you (and BBTDS) who want to enjoy 4 or 5 days of basketball in a great location. My daughter attended the Summit League tourney a few times and absolutely loved it.
I defended the old HL format because from 2003 to 2011, it resulted in success for the HL in the NCAAT through both multiple bids and NCAAT wins. But ultimately, the league's coaches and ADs will decide what format is best for the league.
If the HL is committed to a neutral tourney, I hope they keep location flexible. After the deal in Detroit is up, I think Indy should be considered. The renovated arena at the State Fairgrounds (IUPUI's home arena) would be centrally located and would truly be a neutral location. I also think you'd get support from locals (like me) who would love to see some tournament basketball in a great venue.
I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.
If I had my way it would have been in Indy because I don't think it should be in any school's back yard (I think Chicago would be as bad as Detroit on that count). But, location is not that big of an issue to me.
Quote from: StlVUFan on March 10, 2017, 12:54:14 AMI heard Luke Gore talk about how the Valpo men declined to come a day early and have their shootaround to get familiar with JLA (and learned that we'd made the same decision last year). Someone indicated that Matt Lottich mentioned this too in his postgame press conference. My initial reaction was: WTF??????? Why would we not jump at the chance to practice on the floor we'd be playing on (since we then complained about it after the game was over)? I really still do not understand this decision, which was a Valpo decision, not an HL decision.
Was the after game whining from the coaches about it ever followed up with an appropriate question such as "why didn't you decide to take your allotted time?". I'd think that would be the right thing to do by those doing writeups on the program. Then again, maybe I missed the Q and A.
My own specumatatin' has me believing that the travel decision came from some source other than the coaching staff since two of them mentioned it and they'd be unlikely to incriminate themselves with the assumption that the followup question would be asked.
The OVC is going to Evansville after 20+ years in Nashville.
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 11, 2017, 08:59:10 AM
I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.
Most people who stay for the State Fair stay in the east end hotels off Shadeland or Post Rd. Or they stay downtown.
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 11, 2017, 08:59:10 AM
I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.
Because driving or taking a $10 Uber from downtown is too unreasonable?
But that's besides the point. They're going to hold it in whatever place pays the most money.
Quote from: a3uge on March 11, 2017, 12:46:46 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 11, 2017, 08:59:10 AM
I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.
Because driving or taking a $10 Uber from downtown is too unreasonable?
But that's besides the point. They're going to hold it in whatever place pays the most money.
Unreasonable to me, have it at the convention center and everything is walkable. Unfortunately neither will bid on this tourney though I would be all for it!
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 11, 2017, 01:20:00 PM
Quote from: a3uge on March 11, 2017, 12:46:46 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 11, 2017, 08:59:10 AM
I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.
Because driving or taking a $10 Uber from downtown is too unreasonable?
But that's besides the point. They're going to hold it in whatever place pays the most money.
Unreasonable to me, have it at the convention center and everything is walkable. Unfortunately neither will bid on this tourney though I would be all for it!
That'd be difficult because the convention center doesn't have a basketball arena in it.
How would it be at the convention center? There isn't a court there. Downtown indy isn't very far from the state fair grounds. That wouldn't be a bad option.
Nkvu brings up very valid points about the mental toughness of the team over the years. I whole heartedly agree with his post.
Quote from: valpolaw on March 11, 2017, 10:27:55 PM
How would it be at the convention center? There isn't a court there. Downtown indy isn't very far from the state fair grounds. That wouldn't be a bad option.
Nkvu brings up very valid points about the mental toughness of the team over the years. I whole heartedly agree with his post.
Sorry I brought this up because if people actually think downtown and the state fairgrounds are close there is no hope.
Quote from: bsmith21 on March 12, 2017, 07:48:35 AM
same answer a temporary court. normally there's not a basketball court at the Atlantis buthe every year there's a tournament there. every time the final 4 comes to indy they setup a basketball experience in the convention center. it includes a regulation basketball court and about 5000 stands. Lots of places dof it
No, the convention center did not include 5000 seats around a court. The ARC seats 5000 - that would be insane for a temporary arena. The Battle for Atlantis court seats around 3600.
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847991144034304000
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847991990285422592
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847992366178988032
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847992940806983681
I'm excited for the Arch Madness.
Olympia Entertainment has always used the Horizon League as a testing ground to prepare to try and land the Big Ten Tourney once Little Caesars Arena was complete.
https://twitter.com/chrissolari/status/864550972219158528
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/864579285918638083