The Valparaiso Beacons Fan Zone Forum

I thought this deserved its own thread. I saw ValpoPal's post that mentioned it.

Personally I am not for changing the Mascot. There is sometimes change that is needed to be respectful in my eyes but then there are people who want to see change because they think society should be "overly-sensitive" and I think this creeps into that territory...

ValpoPal's Post from before:

Quote from: valpopal on March 28, 2017, 09:46:02 AM
More important than the name on the back of the uniforms, those away from campus should be aware there is a movement organized by activist faculty members to change the name of the team and the mascot, as well as the Valparaiso University logo. In this week's Torch, a letter appeared from one of the faculty after a "teach-in" by the "Compassionate Campus Faculty Learning Community" titled "Islamaphobia and the Crusader Mascot." The group has a Facebook page, "VU-FLC Creating a Compassionate Campus Series," where they have posted photos of the "teach-in" and a poll intended to create artwork for a new VU logo.

Quote from: VULB#62 on March 28, 2017, 11:04:31 AM
How about if we alter the name from "the fighting Crusaders of Valparaiso University" to "The Compassionate Crusaders of Vaplaraiso University" ?  We could still use the mascot but have him smiling.

Quote from: usc4valpo on March 28, 2017, 11:21:13 AM
Maybe he mascot is smiling under the armor. How about we assume that and move forward?

In the meantime, we should have a set back the clock game, wear the puke orange jerseys from the Smith era,  play a game at Hilltop and flip the bird at the officials in honor of Rob Harden? Ok, maybe not the last suggestion. How about play without a shot kick and win 35-33 over a div 3 Indiana foe?

Quote from: valpo64 on March 28, 2017, 12:11:16 PM
Just what we need...the faculty running the University!  I've had it with the politically correct crap.  Maybe we could change our colors to pink and blue and change our nickname to "The fighting Jeans" to eliminate the gender thing too.

This is infuriating.

I voted to keep the Crusader, but I thought it relevant to point out that before we became Crusaders we actually were the Uhlans. At the time, I would assume, we, as a Lutheran institution,  changed to Crusaders, in keeping with the "onward Christian Soldiers" philosophy with little thought to who the enemy might be, forgetting that these 'Christian Soldiers' only fought in the Holy Land.

Uhlans are, according to Wikipedia:

uhlan  or ulan
n
1. (Historical Terms) history a member of a body of lancers first employed in the Polish army and later in W European armies
2. (Military) history a member of a body of lancers first employed in the Polish army and later in W European armies
[C18: via German from Polish ulan, from Turkish ōlan young man]

Essentially they were light calvary as memorialized in "The Charge of the Light Brigade."

This is ridiculous. Valpo is a Christian school!  Also, Crusaders was used for a legendary R&B group.

and please, do not compare thIs to the Washington redskins situation.

If you vote yes or no or idc, I encourage you to share your reasoning.

I personally voted no, because I thought it was being way to politically correct, but I respect opposing opinions.

My thought process:
-It just seems like a bit of virtue signaling by the people actively trying the change the mascot.

-In life you can't make everyone happy. Someone will always be "offended" (or get worked up in their head about something) and by trying to change
everything to try your best not offend anyone is an unaccomplishable goal. This push by one small side of the spectrum to make everything in society to be politically correct is particularly concerning to me.

-From what I've heard, is that the small group trying to change the mascot gave a very one-sided run down of the history/pre-history/post-history of the Crusades. Apparently it was being spun to just say Christians were the aggressors/oppressors in the whole situation and completely did not want to acknowledge the Islamic Conquests into Europe that provoke religious wars. I am not very religious but I do care very deeply about history and ignoring and picking & choosing parts of history you don't like is intellectually dishonest (particularly shameful when it comes from University Faculty) and wrong.

Quote from: VU2014 on March 28, 2017, 01:49:49 PM
If you vote yes or no or idc, I encourage you to share your reasoning.

I personally voted no, because I thought it was being way to politically correct, but I respect opposing opinions.

My thought process:
-It just seems like a bit of virtue signaling by the people actively trying the change the mascot.

-In life you can't make everyone happy. Someone will always be "offended" (or get worked up in their head about something) and by trying to change
everything to try your best not offend anyone is an unaccomplishable goal. This push by one small side of the spectrum to make everything in society to be politically correct is particularly concerning to me.

-From what I've heard, is that the small group trying to change the mascot gave a very one-sided run down of the history/pre-history/post-history of the Crusades. Apparently it was being spun to just say Christians were the aggressors/oppressors in the whole situation and completely did not want to acknowledge the Islamic Conquests into Europe that provoke religious wars. I am not very religious but I do care very deeply about history and ignoring and picking & choosing parts of history you don't like is intellectually dishonest (particularly shameful when it comes from University Faculty) and wrong.

Offense is taken where offense is meant.  I'd vote "No" but I quit FaceBook in 2010 to simplify life.

Maybe we should just stop being a Christian or Lutheran university too while we are at it.  Don't want to offend any other religions...

Quote from: jsher3141 on March 28, 2017, 04:04:32 PM
Maybe we should just stop being a Christian or Lutheran university too while we are at it.  Don't want to offend any other religions...

I agree with your statement. Just remove from Valpo's literature and website that they are a private Lutheran University.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

Quote from: jsher3141 on March 28, 2017, 04:04:32 PM
Maybe we should just stop being a Christian or Lutheran university too while we are at it.  Don't want to offend any other religions...

Yeah, we could take a page from UC Santa Cruz and change to the Banana Slugs. 

Banana slug is a common name for three North American species of terrestrial slug in the genus Ariolimax. These slugs are often yellow in color and are sometimes spotted with brown, like a ripe banana.  The students' embrace of such a lowly creature was their response to the fierce athletic competition fostered at most American universities.

The Banana Slug has attracted a good deal of national attention over the years. In 2008, ESPN named it one of the 10 best college basketball mascots. Four years earlier, Reader's Digest named it the best. People magazine once dedicated a full-page spread to the Santa Cruz Banana Slug movement. The National Directory of College Athletics named it the best college mascot and Sports Illustrated magazine once named the Banana Slug the nation's best college nickname.

Sammy the Slug mascot has been appearing around campus at sports events and other functions. And, when the men's tennis team played in the NCAA championships, their T-shirts read: "Banana Slugs-No Known Predators."


There you have it -- no known predators.  Who could be offended by that?

When I first read 'banana slug' I thought it was honest a parody or a joke or something. Wow....

A public University from California would pick a schools Mascot the banana slugs

https://twitter.com/valpo_hoops/status/846846019614724100

Quote from: valpo4life on March 28, 2017, 01:03:23 PM
This is infuriating.

Maybe this group aught to read some of this guys work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Madden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Madden)
Here is a condensed article based on his book "The New Concise History of the Crusades" The Real History of the Crusades (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/mayweb-only/52.0.html?start=1)
I think someone else had mentioned his works in another thread about this subject.

If you have ever seen the movie Pulp Fiction, you would notice John Travolta wearing a UC Santa Cruz T-Shirt after cleaning out the car.

If we end up changing the crusader mascot I vote for a change to the vicuna.


(http://discovery.library.colostate.edu/bookcover.php?size=medium&id=DSpace1021754555&url=https://dspace.library.colostate.edu/bitstream/10217/54555/1/Garst_18241.jpg)



The Valpo Vicunas!

It's unique, like the banana slugs, and it goes with Valpo, as it starts with V also. It's from South America which is also where the name Valparaiso comes from.

Quote from: VULB#62 on March 28, 2017, 01:12:41 PMI voted to keep the Crusader, but I thought it relevant to point out that before we became Crusaders we actually were the Uhlans. At the time, I would assume, we, as a Lutheran institution,  changed to Crusaders, in keeping with the "onward Christian Soldiers" philosophy with little thought to who the enemy might be, forgetting that these 'Christian Soldiers' only fought in the Holy Land.

Actually the Uhlans mane was dropped in response to Nazi Germany.

Here is a serious proposal.   I would appreciate a quick poll!

We could kill two birds with one stone.  We could appease our sensitive young friends and also make our unique NW Indiana "lake effect" more nationally known.  How about......drumroll........the "VALPARAISO SNOWFLAKES"!!     What would be the trim on our glistening white  uniforms?....light blue?

I wish this thread was a joke but sadly it's not. The staff wanting to change it needs to find some better cause to devote their time to.

I always thought that the "Valparaiso Silkie Chickens" had a nice ring to it.



:crazy:

Compare and contrast Saint Olaf to Valpo as it stands today.   Go.....


.http://www.topix.com/forum/colleges/saint-olaf-college/T1O62TK8EU25J1MAR/conservative-students-at-lutheran-college-say-they

Maybe a throwback to the Strongbow turkey farm days - The Valparaiso Gobblers

seriously, besides a letter to the college newspaper, how much support is this getting on campus?

The university needs to be careful here. Alums get very sensitive when mascots get changed for PC reasons, and this can reduce donations. Look at university of North Dakota as an example. Marquette is another.

I'm obviously an outsider, but I would vote yes simply because "Crusaders" and the event the name glorifies was in fact a horrific one. I get that its a private xian school, if you asked any student, fan, or faculty if they morally support what the "Crusades" represent, you'd be hard-pressed to find any real support. Something similar or something that represents Valpo's values or culture would be just fine, trust me, its not an attack on your identity.

Just create a safe space for those faculty members who are offended. The Crusades were a response of self-defense against Muslim aggression. Facts are stubborn things.

Quote from: jsher3141 on March 28, 2017, 04:04:32 PM
Maybe we should just stop being a Christian or Lutheran university too while we are at it.  Don't want to offend any other religions...

Last I heard, the pope encouraged the crusades. The crusaders were Roman Catholics.  Luther and the Roman Catholics weren't of one mind, if my understanding of history is correct. 

Equating the school mascot with the religious orientation of the school is absurd.

Here is the other thing that is absurd - the Valpo mascot is pretty neutral and has cartoony feel where it is not offensive.

There are some things that need to change like Cleveland Indians mascot which is obviously offensive, and likely the Washington Redskins name. But this is absurd

I do not think the mascot should, or needs to be changed. But universities are supposed to be a place where ideas are freely exchanged and debated, so I welcome the discussion. Does the PC thing get taken too far at times? Of course. But I think this is a good lesson for the faculty and/or students involved that there's nothing wrong with pointing out what you perceive to be a problem, as long as you're willing to be part of the solution. Don't just grandstand like members of congress claiming something will destroy the country simply because the other party proposed it.

Personally, I say let them propose whatever name they want and let the alumni vote. Alums have the most time (and money) devoted to Vu, and deserve the most say in something like this. My guess is it's a landslide to stay with Crusaders.

cheese - excellent response. we should have healthy debate and conflict - unlike how government handles situations

I agree we should. Unfortunately this thread is mostly filled with people mocking those that want to change and implying their idea or reasons are stupid and due to over sensitivity and not maybe a thoughtful reason with a different set of concerns.

I personally voted we should change it. I feel that anytime you glorify a name from a specific war you risk alienating the other side and no side is perfect in a war. We are an independent Lutheran University, not a Catholic one and we do have a sizable Muslim population. I generally cheer Valpo but I do not say I am a Crusader. My choice, I don't feel I am "a snowflake" or "PC". I just am not a fan of our mascot. I also feel that generally these types of fights are not ones worth having. I am more concerned about the quality of our academics, how our athletes handle themselves on and off the field, the service work our student's due and the leadership they display. That's Valpo to me.

Quote from: crusader05 on March 29, 2017, 08:17:45 AM
I do not say I am a Crusader.

Odd thing to say, crusader05.

I also voted for Valparaiso changing the mascot name for essentially the same reasons as crusader05. I also will never wear clothing that says "Crusader", but am glad to wear clothing the says "Valparaiso University" and speak highly of and support programs such as those summarized by crusader05.

I welcome the debate on the topic, and am not going to walk away angry from the university if they decide not to change the name. I am no historian, but am sure that there are valid reasons, from different perspectives, why the name is honorable and why the name is offensive. In my opinion, you just cannot get away form the definition of Crusader being "Christian fighting against Muslim".

That said. I would also argue that this is far from a major issue. Valparaiso has muslim students that come to the school now, and we can presume that many know the mascot name. I am not aware that the university does or allows anything that is 'anti-muslim' (and I would have a huge problem if they did), so it is fairly reasonable to assume that changing the mascot name is a solution looking for a problem. On the other side, people who argue that changing the mascot will drive away alums and their donations are making a very weak argument. Marquette, for instance, changed their name from Warriors to Golden Eagles. There is a very vocal minority that argues that this, and other things, have destroyed the university. Yet, there is no evidence (reduced applications and enrollment, university rankings, sports attendance, donations, etc.) that supports their argument. Thus, thinking that supportive alums and their dollars, along with fans, will meaningfully decrease if Valparaiso change the mascot name is not supported by similar situations at other universities.

Sorry, I should have clarified. This is a decision I have come to in the last year or two, after my screen name was set and just have never changed it. But currently when people ask i identify as a Valpo Alumna, not a Crusader.

I used to not really care much or think about the name although I know this debate has been raging for years and years. Which is partly why I came around to changing it. I just felt that any reason I could think of to keep it didn't seem to be as important as the argument that it could be unwelcoming or make others feel slightly less comfortable.

Chiming in quickly, having only skimmed the earlier replies.

I'd be happy to change to something that didn't run the risk of glorifying war, and specifically war tinged with religious conflict. I guess most of us would agree that it's better to avoid wars when there are other reasonable alternatives.

I might generically prefer something animal themed, if we want to stick with something violent and aggressive. Or the natural world could have other options (Wheaton's Thunder doesn't sound so bad). Or I enjoy names with local or historical connections (Boilermakers, Packers, Brewers, etc. could we be the Martin Luthers?).

It's not the only connotation "Crusader" has, but I'm not proud of that extended historical episode including military campaigns in the middle ages. I don't know how much the Crusader mascot bothers our significant number of Muslim students, alumni, faculty, and staff. Or our Jewish community members, or others connected with or concerned about the various groups that the medieval Crusades targeted. There's a chance that "liberals/progressives" generically care more about this than "Muslims/Middle Easterners" generically do - I'm just not sure. But, it seems an odd thing to celebrate. Who would be excited by a "Jihadi" mascot? But I guess it could carry many of the same connotations, positive and negative, as does "Crusader".

If people really preferred a military-themed mascot, and liked historical connections, I could probably support a return to the Uhlan. Why do we tolerate the "political correctness" that led to removing the Uhlan during WWII? We might not even need to change the mascot or graphics. Even the "Knights" would be preferable to the "Crusaders". Probably the Uhlans committed their share of atrocities and certainly "Knights" could have positive and negative connotations and knights no doubt committed deeds both bad and good, like the rest of us. But I'd consider either Uhlans or Knights less fraught than Crusaders.

I avoid Crusader-labeled gear when I can, preferring Valparaiso gear.

I cheer, often passionately, for Valpo. I don't cheer for the Crusaders.

An interesting take agibson. I get not wanting to glorify war but I don't think the Crusader intentionally glorifies war. Could there possibly be reasonable alternatives? I guess yes.

QuoteThere's a chance that "liberals/progressives" generically care more about this than "Muslims/Middle Easterners" generically do - I'm just not sure.

I think this may be the case. I don't keep up with a lot of my Middle-eastern classmates as much as I should but I remember going to a game with a couple of my Muslims peers after class once and I don't think there was any hint of tension or disappointment about the mascot being a crusader. I do think this "movement" is being pushed by a small segment of "progressives" faculty and a few students. I consider myself to be a fairly socially liberal guy and I sort of think this is a bit of an active push to try and find something to change that has never been a point of contention before as far as I can tell.

QuoteBut, it seems an odd thing to celebrate. Who would be excited by a "Jihadi" mascot? But I guess it could carry many of the same connotations, positive and negative, as does "Crusader".

I just don't think any person has ever seen the Crusader Mascot as a celebration of the Crusades. Also the "crusader" warriors were basically a thousand years ago. "Jihad" is actively being practiced right now and is in direct conflict with Westernized democracies around the world. It's just not in the same situation. I get what you mean though.

I just think there really isn't that much conflict with the word "Crusader". I just feel like this actively seeking to find offense in something. I agree though that I don't root for the team because the word crusader, I root for the University and the team.

Side Note: I really don't like the sound of the Valparaiso Uhlan. Just doesn't sound right. 

I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

People care about different things than you care about. It doesn't mean they don't have a life or they're at fault. It just means they are individuals who think differently.

Quote from: VU2014 on March 29, 2017, 11:31:16 AMAlso the "crusader" warriors were basically a thousand years ago. "Jihad" is actively being practiced right now and is in direct conflict with Westernized democracies around the world. It's just not in the same situation. I get what you mean though.

I think this is a good point - historical distance probably does matter.

You're right that "Jihadi" is probably a more loaded word right now than "Crusader", at least for most Americans.

But in an era when a major party political candidate can openly call for a ban on Muslims, and then get elected, I'd prefer to avoid inflaming religious tensions. And I'm not sure that we're really all that distant historically from politicized "Crusader" language. I suspect that ISIS and other similar groups love the "clash of civilizations" narrative and find fertile recruiting ground in promoting a "Crusader vs Jihadi" or "Christianity and the West vs Islam and the Middle East" story. I'd prefer not to aid them.

Quote from above:
"Also the "crusader" warriors were basically a thousand years ago. "Jihad" is actively being practiced right now and is in direct conflict with Westernized democracies around the world."

Over the years, I have had the privilege of working with and knowing quite a few muslims. In several cases, i knew them well enough to ask about the word "Jihad". They have generally felt that the primary definition of the word Jihad is the personal struggle to best serve God and live a meaningful life devoted to family, the community, etc. When asked about terrorism and fundamentalism that harms large populations, they will say that the Quran talks about secondary aspects of Jihad in the generalized term "defending Islam" and that evil groups have corrupted Islam and co-opted the term "Jihad".

The point here is that the meaning of words can evolve over time and be interpreted differently by different groups of people. Perhaps we need to focus more on the intent of the people using the word rather than words that can have wildly different interpretations. While I would favor changing the mascot name (though, as I stated previously, I see this as sort of a solution seeking a problem), I agree with VU2014's point that, because of the broader mission and actions of all parties at Valparaiso University, I have never felt that the Crusader mascot is a celebration of the crusades.

Quote from: valpo64 on March 29, 2017, 11:37:27 AM
I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

What tangible harm has there been from changing the mascot name at Marquette from Warriors to Golden Eagles? By tangible, I mean reduced donations, lower enrollment, lower academic rankings, reduced placements for new graduates, etc. There is a small and very vocal minority that still complains loudly, but I challenge you to provide evidence or facts on the big difference that you claim.

Quote from: vu84v2 on March 29, 2017, 12:00:17 PM

Quote from: valpo64 on March 29, 2017, 11:37:27 AM
I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

What tangible harm has there been from changing the mascot name at Marquette from Warriors to Golden Eagles? By tangible, I mean reduced donations, lower enrollment, lower academic rankings, reduced placements for new graduates, etc. There is a small and very vocal minority that still complains loudly, but I challenge you to provide evidence or facts on the big difference that you claim.

There was at least $2million that was to be donated to Marquette in order to change name back to Warriors. This came from an alum who offered up $1 million during a graduation address and was quickly matched by another alum. They really wanted the name changed back. Marquette said no, then changed name from Golden Eagles to Gold, until there was more unrest and they changed name back to Golden Eagles.

True, but you have to look at the broader donation picture to attempt to answer the question of whether the name change had a tangible impact. Were there other donors that donated money because of the name change? We don't know. What we do know is that all of the tangible measures that I listed have stayed equal or improved. Now those measures could be due to unrelated factors having a greater positive impact than the negative impact from changing the mascot name at Marquette. Without a much broader set of information, we cannot honestly assess whether the name change has had a negative impact and thus making a claim regarding the 'big difference' is not valid.

Quote from: Pgmado on March 29, 2017, 12:05:21 PM

Quote from: vu84v2 on March 29, 2017, 12:00:17 PM

Quote from: valpo64 on March 29, 2017, 11:37:27 AM
I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

What tangible harm has there been from changing the mascot name at Marquette from Warriors to Golden Eagles? By tangible, I mean reduced donations, lower enrollment, lower academic rankings, reduced placements for new graduates, etc. There is a small and very vocal minority that still complains loudly, but I challenge you to provide evidence or facts on the big difference that you claim.

There was at least $2million that was to be donated to Marquette in order to change name back to Warriors. This came from an alum who offered up $1 million during a graduation address and was quickly matched by another alum. They really wanted the name changed back. Marquette said no, then changed name from Golden Eagles to Gold, until there was more unrest and they changed name back to Golden Eagles.

One of my friends went to Marquette and his Dad went there also when they were the Warriors and every-time I hung out at my buddies house when the MU game was on, his Dad would mentioned how he hated the Golden Eagles Mascot. Was seriously not happy about it. I guess a lot of his generation of alumni are still ticked about it.

Also there are a TON of University of Illinois fans/alumni that are still ticked about the University getting rid of the Chief. I remember a few years ago when U of I was sort of going through an administrative shake up there was a lot of talk about bringing back the Chief.

Passions run hot about this stuff it seems.

Let's not lose our heads over this.

Do we alienate some of our past in order to make a small number of ppl happy?  Go for a vote, include Alumni....see what happens.

I'd like to see 1,000 signatures (current and former students only) before a vote could take place.  Guess there is nothing wrong in bringing up a topic, but they better dang well ensure that enough Alumni get a vote.

I think the other piece is that time moves on. The question becomes when does the blow back from Alumni not meet what we perceive as other lost resources.  The same situation was happening in regards to LGBT life at my time. I had several friend who worked in alumni giving and they said there were older alums who would not donate because Alliance was allowed on campus and those that wouldn't until the university was more open.

I know that recently Giving has been working to mend relationships with LGBT students who did not have a positive experience at Valpo and have had some success.  The reality is that the university also needs younger alumna to start donating early and to stay engaged and not just rely on older ones. That may mean that some changes are going to reflect that need. Again, i'm not sure exactly how much pressure there really is for change, the university is doing strategic planning so my guess is it's coming up a bit more now than usual because of that. I do think that you'll find very passionate people on both ends and a majority in the middle, like most issues. The pressure point will be when which side has more leverage regarding their role within the university OR if they feel it's actively hurting the university.

Quote from: crusader05 on March 29, 2017, 01:06:21 PM
I think the other piece is that time moves on. The question becomes when does the blow back from Alumni not meet what we perceive as other lost resources.  The same situation was happening in regards to LGBT life at my time. I had several friend who worked in alumni giving and they said there were older alums who would not donate because Alliance was allowed on campus and those that wouldn't until the university was more open.

I know that recently Giving has been working to mend relationships with LGBT students who did not have a positive experience at Valpo and have had some success.  The reality is that the university also needs younger alumna to start donating early and to stay engaged and not just rely on older ones. That may mean that some changes are going to reflect that need. Again, i'm not sure exactly how much pressure there really is for change, the university is doing strategic planning so my guess is it's coming up a bit more now than usual because of that. I do think that you'll find very passionate people on both ends and a majority in the middle, like most issues. The pressure point will be when which side has more leverage regarding their role within the university OR if they feel it's actively hurting the university.

What year did you graduate? I know a couple of gay and lesbian alumni who loved their experience at Valpo. They come back for homecoming every single year. At least in my time at school nobody really felt alienated as a far as I can tell.

QuoteThe reality is that the university also needs younger alumna to start donating early and to stay engaged and not just rely on older ones. That may mean that some changes are going to reflect that need.

The reason many younger alumni are not donating is because the amount of student debt that young people incur these days. Many won't be donating for a while till they start feeling more financial security. This is a whole different topic but the student crisis is pretty serious in this country. Schools tuition prices have become outrageous compared to what it use to cost to go to school. Could be a major problem for smaller private University like Valpo if the student loan bubble ever burst.

Total student loan debt in the US has topped $1.3 trillion.

http://www.businessinsider.com/student-loan-debt-state-of-the-union-2016-1

I graduated in 2005 where Alliance and such was not as supported by the University administration or the campus as a whole the way it is now.

As far as younger Alums I mean more those in their 30-50s. People in my age range who are starting to become established in their careers and making money. they may not be able to donate Millions now, but they can start donating in larger sums and be cultivated to be reliable donors in the future. We have seen some of that occur but that group of Alums may have different views/desires etc

Quote from: crusader05 on March 29, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
I graduated in 2005 where Alliance and such was not as supported by the University administration or the campus as a whole the way it is now.

As far as younger Alums I mean more those in their 30-50s. People in my age range who are starting to become established in their careers and making money. they may not be able to donate Millions now, but they can start donating in larger sums and be cultivated to be reliable donors in the future. We have seen some of that occur but that group of Alums may have different views/desires etc

Gotcha.  :thumbsup:

I'll never forget it. The day after I graduated I got a call already asking if I'd like to donate lol

No offense to those who may have strong feelings about this....but in my case, who cares  If somebody really cares about things like this and wants to donate $1 million for a mascot name change, go for it.

I had a little fun with suggesting we try "Valparaiso Snowflakes" in a prior post.   

But I do agree with other posters that open discussion is good.

Most of us recall this mascot thing coming up constantly and also recall it being crushed in a recent vote.  So it seems a little amusing and a little tiresome to me.  But there are always new students and new faculty who are entitled to take a run at it. Somewhere there are placards in need of some new sharpee artists.

Quote from: crusadermoe on March 29, 2017, 02:47:23 PM
Most of us recall this mascot thing coming up constantly and also recall it being crushed in a recent vote.  So it seems a little amusing and a little tiresome to me.  But there are always new students and new faculty who are entitled to take a run at it. Somewhere there are placards in need of some new sharpee artists.

What year did it get voted on?

This isn't I feel that strongly about one way or the other, but those of you up in arms over the prospect of a new nickname know VU already changed its nickname once before as a result of geopolitical concerns (and the risk of offending others), right?

Miami-Ohio didn't suffer after changing their nickname - they actually went to a Sweet 16 in basketball two years after their name change and finished in the AP Top 10 in football five years afterwards, and have been to multiple Frozen Fours in hockey since, and had no trouble privately funding a new hockey arena, major renovations to their football stadium, as well as a brand new athletic performance center. Marquette has had no lack of success in hoops since ditching their old nickname, too.

Keep it, don't keep it, whatever. Just know that ditching it would be very unlikely to hurt. There's zero evidence that nicknames are correlated to athletic success or donors long-term.

Quote from: Pgmado on March 29, 2017, 12:05:21 PM

Quote from: vu84v2 on March 29, 2017, 12:00:17 PM

Quote from: valpo64 on March 29, 2017, 11:37:27 AM
I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

What tangible harm has there been from changing the mascot name at Marquette from Warriors to Golden Eagles? By tangible, I mean reduced donations, lower enrollment, lower academic rankings, reduced placements for new graduates, etc. There is a small and very vocal minority that still complains loudly, but I challenge you to provide evidence or facts on the big difference that you claim.

There was at least $2million that was to be donated to Marquette in order to change name back to Warriors. This came from an alum who offered up $1 million during a graduation address and was quickly matched by another alum. They really wanted the name changed back. Marquette said no, then changed name from Golden Eagles to Gold, until there was more unrest and they changed name back to Golden Eagles.

I'm going to get a puppy next week. If anyone donates $1-2 million to the basketball team I will let them name him lol. Any takers?

In order not to physically change the appearance of our cute little mascot, how bout:  The Yellow Knights of the Brown Table.  No, wait, there are too many negative connotaions to that related to lack of courage and what you might do if scared.

Maybe when we are on offense we can start clicking our coconuts, and we must be careful when the cow gets catapulted and drops from the sky. On defense I would assume that we "run away!"

And the Detroit Titans trash talking in their silly French accents...

Perhaps we should adopt a mascot related to nature--you know, a buckeye or a sycamore.  Maybe a color, like "the cardinal".  We would need to make it geographically correct, so, for example, we shouldn't be "the pecans".  So given our location, perhaps the "acorns" or "oaks"  or given the typical weather, perhaps the "grays" or "stormy"  Go ACORNS, GO STORMY"
Just trying to find something that wouldn't offend anyone other than perhaps the Chamber of Commerce!

Are you kidding me people. The university has been crusader for its whole existence. I can't believe some of you would give it up for some  :censored: pussies who are offended. These people mean nothing. They are the type of people that ruin all things fun. If they don't like it they can 1. leave 2. Close their eyes. 3. Ball their eyes out. I have no sympathy for them if they're gonna get that offended. It's annoying as  :censored: to be quite honest. Get a life go worry about something important not the god damn name of a university that isn't even offensive. Stand your ground people, in not giving up our name for some low life people with nothing better to complain about.

Quote from: vu72 on March 29, 2017, 06:46:36 PMPerhaps we should adopt a mascot related to nature--you know, a buckeye or a sycamore. 

"Hickory Nuts"  Wait. We don't want to offend any crazy people.  :-[

http://www.scout.com/story/1593906-oddest-high-school-mascot-in-every-u-s-state

The most unusual high school mascot in every U.S. state

Couple of my Favorites:

Florida - Laurel Hill Hoboes

Illinois - Freeburg Midgets

QuoteThe university has been crusader for its whole existence.

No, actually they haven't. A quick Google search may help inform you (if not help you to calm down, skippy):

QuoteCoincident with the beginning of World War II, Valparaiso University renamed its yearbook from The Uhlan (a German soldier) to The Beacon. The next year Valpo changed its athletic team name from the Uhlans to the Crusaders.

Hope you don't get offended by my cursing  :'( . It's not that I'm mad, I'm annoyed if anything. People will find anything to complain about.

I voted no just for the simple fact I have a lot of money invested in Valpo gear nowadays!!! ;)

I also agree that discourse is good but nothing should be changed if the majority feels that it's okay. Crusader translates from the French Croisader (sic) which means one marked with the Cross. Just as Jihad translates to the struggle for God. Any of us that have been baptized have been "marked" with the Cross. Valpo doesn't glorify the Crusader per se but identifies the mascot with a Christian identity. The school welcomes all faiths and affords them ample opportunity to succeed. That should be more of the focus.

I've seen some bad interpretations of what the Crusades were. They were started to combat Islamic aggression into the Western world. I would encourage a look at this to educate one's self into something that cannot simply be labeled a religious war either....http://strangenotions.com/the-crusdades-urban-legends-and-truth/

I find it interesting that the ones who propose that others should not be easily offended are the ones who are themselves offended that this conversation simply took place! Feel free to vote whichever way you want and let others do the same.

Feel free to believe that crusaders have nothing to do with wars, but that does not mean that others must feel the same way. In fact, you should consider that the catholic church (the entity who actually started the crusades) have issued an apology for the crusades and said that it was a dark stage of its history. Being more royal than the king?  ;)

On another note, we have not been the crusaders for our whole existence, we were the Uhlans. Only during WWII, in a frantic move, we became the crusaders simply for the sake of distancing ourselves from the german fighters.

The conversation on campus was initiated by admission people and international recruiters. Admission staff members have reported that in admission fairs, some prospective students are skipping over their booths and making comments that they don't want to be crusaders. International recruiters have explicitly asked for brochures and pamphlets that do NOT have any crusader references. Do you not think that these reports should trigger this conversation?

After all, the University is a business with a brand and a budget. Mascots are used to improve the brand and help with a balanced budget. Shouldn't we check our ego  for the sake of maintaining a balanced budget in these challenging times? Keep in mind that getting 20 more students/year is equivalent to around $1M/year in revenues.

BTW, I don't know if this matters or is relevant to the discussion, but our mascot is (1) brown with gold accents, not white with a red cross (as all mideval crusaders are depicted),  and (2) does not exhibit any cross at all on the body or the shield. Also, the Valpo athletics brand/logo does not ccontain a cross, rather a V with a flame and the knight that is used has no cross as a part of the graphic.

(Edit) My observation was not meant to refute Valpofan's post. And thanks Valpofan for the added perspective.  I wrote it while that post was added to the string, and after I released it, I realized that it appeared after it.  One point that needs to be mentioned is that Ulan started out as a Polish light calvary unit that was adopted by numerous northern European military.  The fact that Germany was one of them and that Lutherans, and especially Missouri Synod Lutherans, had a distinctly German heritage probably led to making that leap during the war.

It's going to be a long offseason on this message board.

This is an interesting debate and one worth staging.  I offer a quote from an article written by Bruce Frohnen titled "Should Christians apologize for the Crusades"  In it he concludes with the following:

There is much to criticize in the actions of the Crusaders, and no doubt even in the motivations of many of them and their leaders. But this is merely to recognize that, being made up of human actions, the Crusades involved the actions of sinners—hence many sins. But to defend one's ally against invasion, to seek to re-open holy sites to pilgrimage, and to defend one's civilization against leaders of another civilization, bent on conquest, is no sin, but rather an act of pious bravery. It is especially odd that so many today are anxious to defend Muslim extremists who claim to be defending their civilization, while rejecting those who defended their own. That peace is a better tool than violence, that toleration and cooperation are crucial sources of stability and the makings of a decent life, are important points. But we who must face massive brutality ought not to focus only on the sins of our forebears. Rather, we should seek to respect and even capture the piety and courage of an era whose violent proclivities we fool ourselves into thinking no longer exist. We should seek, like Crusaders, to stand for our faith and defend our right to live out that faith, including by defending our co-religionists so woefully abandoned to intolerance and outright murder in the Middle East of today. Our means must change, but our current refusal to stand for the right and the just, and to defend Christians suffering martyrdom on a regular basis, is a stain on our character—and one that the Crusaders never bore.

Our schools and our Catholic schools in particular should be proud to associate with those who fought and died to ensure that pilgrims might have access to the holy sites of their faith, that Christian nations might survive in the face of a powerful invader, and that they might serve their Church and their God. We can build on this pride an understanding of other peoples' actions, even when they are extreme, only if and to the extent that we retain our moral compass, which means respecting the dictates of our own civilization and refusing to cede the moral high ground to those who reject it for us all.

Editor's note: This column first appeared February 19, 2016 in Imaginative Conservative and is reprinted with permission. (Photo courtesy of Shutterstock.)

Quote from: M on March 29, 2017, 10:29:38 PM
It's going to be a long offseason on this message board.

In a good way. I like that this board is more than just Xs and Os and Ws and Ls.

If some 17 year old kid passes by our table at a college fair and says "I don't want to be a Crusader," don't be fooled--that kid was never gonna come to VU in the first place. To call this kid a "prospective" student is unrealistic. And if by some chance he or she would actually enroll here, make no mistake--they would find something else to bitch and moan about in a big hurry and would wind up being a big pain in the keister.

While I'm at it, I don't think some kid from Saudi Arabia should be able to dictate what our name should be just cause he or she is offended.

Paul

Quote from: vu72 on March 29, 2017, 10:30:29 PM
This is an interesting debate and one worth staging.  I offer a quote from an article written by Bruce Frohnen titled "Should Christians apologize for the Crusades"  In it he concludes with the following:

There is much to criticize in the actions of the Crusaders, and no doubt even in the motivations of many of them and their leaders. But this is merely to recognize that, being made up of human actions, the Crusades involved the actions of sinners—hence many sins. But to defend one's ally against invasion, to seek to re-open holy sites to pilgrimage, and to defend one's civilization against leaders of another civilization, bent on conquest, is no sin, but rather an act of pious bravery. It is especially odd that so many today are anxious to defend Muslim extremists who claim to be defending their civilization, while rejecting those who defended their own. That peace is a better tool than violence, that toleration and cooperation are crucial sources of stability and the makings of a decent life, are important points. But we who must face massive brutality ought not to focus only on the sins of our forebears. Rather, we should seek to respect and even capture the piety and courage of an era whose violent proclivities we fool ourselves into thinking no longer exist. We should seek, like Crusaders, to stand for our faith and defend our right to live out that faith, including by defending our co-religionists so woefully abandoned to intolerance and outright murder in the Middle East of today. Our means must change, but our current refusal to stand for the right and the just, and to defend Christians suffering martyrdom on a regular basis, is a stain on our character—and one that the Crusaders never bore.

Our schools and our Catholic schools in particular should be proud to associate with those who fought and died to ensure that pilgrims might have access to the holy sites of their faith, that Christian nations might survive in the face of a powerful invader, and that they might serve their Church and their God. We can build on this pride an understanding of other peoples' actions, even when they are extreme, only if and to the extent that we retain our moral compass, which means respecting the dictates of our own civilization and refusing to cede the moral high ground to those who reject it for us all.

Editor's note: This column first appeared February 19, 2016 in Imaginative Conservative and is reprinted with permission. (Photo courtesy of Shutterstock.)

I see the point, but I also acknowlegde that times change and values evolve and I can also see the other side as described by Valpofan.  In these times (much like Ulan during WWII) the Crusader might be too much of an "in your face" kind of thing. There is no obvious solution.

But I think this issue and associated attitudes and perceptions have been exacerbated by the current political climate since the election.  Suddenly the USA is being perceived worldwide as unwelcoming and islamophobic. As an indicator, I just read a news story that projected that US tourism will take a $18 billion hit through 2018 alone in cancelled and reduced foreign bookings. Marriott, as an example, is seeing a 35% -45% decrease in bookings since the travel ban -- and that is not not just from the middle east, it is from all over the world. 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/03/29/trumps-travel-ban-could-cost-18b-us-tourism-travel-analysts-say/99708758/

Again, this has nothing to do with "being oversensitive," it has everything to do with aligning one's self with the wrong side of history. We (most of us anyway) laugh at, but often scold those who brandish the confederate flag for the very same reason. The whole, "its our heritage" thing only works if your heritage is objectively inoffensive (by this I mean that a reasonable person who considers the circumstances would generally find no reason to be offended). Clearly, there are grounds for offense to be taken, therefore, don't berate those who do take offense to something like this. I am an unapologetic leftist (not a liberal, way further left) and I personally do not really find the crusader name offensive, but I can coherently rationalize why some might be uncomfortable with it. Be the "knights", "the horsemen", something that is uniquely Valpo, that would be cool. Crusaders are not unique to a Lutheran university (it literally makes zero sense, anyway, that would like my graduate school Marquette, which is Jesuit, going by the name the "Norbertines"). Like I said, I personally couldn't care less, but its not irrational to conceive the idea that some people might be reasonably offended by it.

Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on March 29, 2017, 07:53:35 PMQuote (selected)
Coincident with the beginning of World War II, Valparaiso University renamed its yearbook from The Uhlan (a German soldier) to The Beacon. The next year Valpo changed its athletic team name from the Uhlans to the Crusaders.

I never knew about "the Beacon".  That actually would be distinctive and certainly in touch with the school's motto.   I appreciate the conversation, and I have learned more about the crusades -- the "strange notions" citation above lost me when they asserted that Luther supported the Turks; many of us remember his lyric (no longer included in hymnals), "Lord keep us steadfast in the word, Curb pope and Turk and all that horde."  However my research turns out, the popular perception of the crusades and its abuses has to be considered in terms of its impact on recruiting students and the long-term viability of the university.  It's of concern that our rival of the 1960's, St. Joe's, closed its doors for next year.

It's just a word.

What a great and substantive post by VU72 quoting Mr. Frohnen.  This really opens up the issues about the merits of staying steadfast and showing courage in your beliefs. In a more concise form, an old country song says, "if you don't  stand for something, you're gonna fall for anything."

Chances to learn history should always be welcome on message boards and moreso at universities. Several posts ago in this thread, a poster wrote a quick one-liner that made me laugh. He said simply, "Let's not lose our heads over this."  But when you have time, look up the Janisar warriors who fought with the Turks.  The Janisars were warriors in the Turkish armies who were first-born male children taken from their Christian parents as a "blood tax" to the conquering Muslim armies. After a forced conversion to Islam they were made to fight against their own nations and family.  That's a pretty systematic effort to "convert or die" others and not just an anecdote or single instance of rage from a rogue leader.

If you choose not to convert in defeat, you can choose submission sometimes.  People have been allowed to pay the "jizrah" (perhaps not spelled right) as conquered people. It is essentially a tax paid by non-muslims to the dominant muslim government for the high privilege of not being killled.

Indeed, there are many instances in centuries past of Christian dominance and cruelty in Europe, the Americas, and elsewhere.  But in our present day, the Muslim threat has re-emerged. 

This is not a good time to capitulate to muslim sensitivities. Let's be statistically honest.  In reality how many people have been murdered IN THE LAST DECADE by a Jewish killer in the name of Judaism?....how many murdered by a Christian in the name of Christianity,....how many murdered by a Hindu in the name of Hinduism...etc...etc. I would guess you have heard that point driven home.  Or perhaps not.

If history from the 1100s to 1300s is really central to this mascot change idea.  Then looks have the intellectual honesty for Valparaiso to host a forum of speakers equally representing the FULL history of religious conflict through the present.  Note I said, speakers that are EQUALLY representing.  I would like to think VU has the courage to do this.  But I suspect, anyone speaking in the non-PC view would be shouted down by a paid army of protesters as well as a large cohort from within our faculty and student body.     

Quote from: crusadermoe on March 30, 2017, 09:24:23 AM
This is not a good time to capitulate to muslim sensitivities. Let's be statistically honest.  In reality how many people have been murdered IN THE LAST DECADE by a Jewish killer in the name of Judaism?....how many murdered by a Christian in the name of Christianity,....how many murdered by a Hindu in the name of Hinduism...etc...etc. I would guess you have heard that point driven home.  Or perhaps not.

There is actually a pretty lengthy history of Hindu violence against Muslims in India. The example below doesn't fall within the last decade, but the link does give a good overview of the kind of thing that has happened there going back to the days of the British partition and up into the present.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/03/world/asia/gujarat-riots-massacre-india-verdict.html?_r=0 (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/03/world/asia/gujarat-riots-massacre-india-verdict.html?_r=0)

In addition, and more recently, there is significant - potentially genocidal - violence directed against Muslims in Myanmar by the Buddhist majority there.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/05/opinions/rakhine-state-rohingya-genocide-opinion/ (http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/05/opinions/rakhine-state-rohingya-genocide-opinion/)

The whole of human history can pretty much be summed up in, "Oh, you worship a different god? Or the same god a different way? I shall kill you."

You know, there are lots of people who are up-to-date on the ancient "crusade" thing, etc....Really?  Not attending a school because of its mascot name?   Are you serious?  Come on mascot groupies...there are MANY more important things in this world to discuss than this.  It appears that we have been overwhelmed by the "P C" crowd.

It is very interesting how this thread quickly evolved into a religious history discussion. I personally, do not feel that this is the right platform for such deep topic, so I will pass.
However, I want to point out that Muslims are only a very small minority of the people who find the crusader mascot to be inappropriate. The event on campus was NOT organized by Muslims and only one of the several speakers in it was a Muslim. The admission recruiters who reported issues were recruiting not only in the middle east, but also in the midwest, China, India, etc...
What I am trying to say is: this is not a Christian vs Muslim issue.

The Mascot is only a Mascot, it is supposed to help your brand, not the other way around. If you are losing "business" because of your Mascot, something is going wrong.

If you own a restaurant and you know that some customers like your food but will not eat there because of an art painting on the wall in your restaurant. Wouldn't you remove it? Even if that painting has a historical significance to you, would you be so stubborn to lose the business for a painting?

Quote from: ValpoFan on March 30, 2017, 12:17:19 PM
It is very interesting how this thread quickly evolved into a religious history discussion. I personally, do not feel that this is the right platform for such deep topic, so I will pass.
However, I want to point out that Muslims are only a very small minority of the people who find the crusader mascot to be inappropriate. The event on campus was NOT organized by Muslims and only one of the several speakers in it was a Muslim. The admission recruiters who reported issues were recruiting not only in the middle east, but also in the midwest, China, India, etc...
What I am trying to say is: this is not a Christian vs Muslim issue.

The Mascot is only a Mascot, it is supposed to help your brand, not the other way around. If you are losing "business" because of your Mascot, something is going wrong.

If you own a restaurant and you know that some customers like your food but will not eat there because of an art painting on the wall in your restaurant. Wouldn't you remove it? Even if that painting has a historical significance to you, would you be so stubborn to lose the business for a painting?

As I feel we are dealing with a few extremes here, let me suggest a restaurant situation:  You own an Irish/British/Scotish pub.  You are very fond of the Donald Tartan wall paper, in fact you can trace your own heritage back to the Donald's.  So along comes members of the Stewart family who, in the 1200's truly hated the Donald's and many were killed by Donald clansmen.  They are so upset they don't want to frequent your establishment.  Do you change the wallpaper as to not offend??   :crazy:

One thing I don't understand is the concept of Valpo losing business over the mascot. As far as I know no one is not coming to Valpo because of the Crusader. Is there any data to support that Valpo is losing out on students because of a mascot?

You had a warm and engaging mascot with a beaming smile - a truly cute and cuddly character.  But, that wasn't inclusive enough for those who choose to live life perpetually offended and aggrieved. Hmm, what to do? 

"We know!" say the enlightened ones. "Let's have a nameless, faceless, colorless, genderless, personalityless Crusader!  That way, nobody can possibly be offended!"  Thus, the single most boring mascot action figure in the history of athletics is born - "The Crusader!" 

And all is right in the world.

Except for one minor detail. This new bag of bones hidden behind a coat of armor and face shield is a mirror image of one of those "bad" Christian warriors from the 12th century in full battle garb, ready to murder "innocent," "peace loving" Muslims of the day.

So, after waiting ever so patiently for the push back from the first change to work through all the steps from rejection through acceptance, the snake slithers out of its hole and issues a new demand - "Get rid of that offensive Crusader once and for all!"

And the snake worshipers and the snake appeasers bow to the whims and wishes of the snake once again.

And all is right in the world.

And the snake smiles.

12 For our struggle is not against [a]flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

Ephesians 6:12-13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Quote from: crusadermoe on March 30, 2017, 09:24:23 AMIf you choose not to convert in defeat, you can choose submission sometimes.  People have been allowed to pay the "jizrah" (perhaps not spelled right) as conquered people. It is essentially a tax paid by non-muslims to the dominant muslim government for the high privilege of not being killled.

There's a long and tangled history here and surely practices varied from place to place. But, I've heard that sometimes this "non-muslim tax" was essentially a replacement for a tax Muslims paid. One of the five pillars of Islam is charitable giving (zakat). I think this is sometimes connected with Ramadan, and is often a fraction of _wealth_ rather than a fraction of _income_. I think that there have been times and places where this was collected by the government as a tax, and then hopefully redistributed to those in need. And, in those circumstances, if you're not going to collect zakat from Christians, imposing some other kind of tax on them could perhaps make some sense

Not to say that governments never abuse their citizens. Or that Islamic governments have never abused minority citizens.

I still say we switch to the Vicuña which would be unique and much less controversial


http://www.factzoo.com/mammals/vicuna-tiny-south-american-camel.html


The vicuña, a graceful yet fast animal, has a thick brown coat that protects its body against the cold in its habitat. The vicuña, because of its warm coat, is able to tolerate the cold, ice and snow. The male feels most at home and happy when it's among a group of about 5-15 females. This male vicuña will alert the females if any danger comes so that the female vicuñas can quickly run away. Younger males without a female harem will form their own groups. When the male fights, it will usually spit at the other vicuña. The vicuña can run very fast, at about 29 miles per hour (47 kph). These animals usually eat grass, and also eat small plants.


(http://www.factzoo.com/sites/all/img/mammals/camelids/vicunas.jpg)

People wanting to change a school mascot name are the 'forces of darkness'?

(http://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/378x324/80-lightenupfrancis_3f5a988586521d16fdb18d10d80ef8d849a40dbb.jpg)

Quote from: VU2014 on March 29, 2017, 11:31:16 AMI just don't think any person has ever seen the Crusader Mascot as a celebration of the Crusades.

So, if people don't think of medieval knights fighting holy wars, what do they think about? Billy Graham?

What are the advantages of the Crusader, apart from 75 years of inertia? Is it mostly about chivalry, with a religious cast? Sort of a "Christian Knight" if not a "Lutheran Knight"?

Quote from: agibson on March 31, 2017, 10:44:01 AM

Quote from: VU2014 on March 29, 2017, 11:31:16 AMI just don't think any person has ever seen the Crusader Mascot as a celebration of the Crusades.

So, if people don't think of medieval knights fighting holy wars, what do they think about? Billy Graham?

What are the advantages of the Crusader, apart from 75 years of inertia? Is it mostly about chivalry, with a religious cast? Sort of a "Christian Knight" if not a "Lutheran Knight"?

I just don't think many people care about the Crusader mascot and are greatly offended by it other then a very small group of SJWs. I think the whole "movement" is very much a case of a few people (who are not even of the Islamic faith (which are the main audience that I believe most folks think could potentially be offended by it) are getting offended about this mascot that may (I emphasize may) offend other people.

I just think a lot of this is a lot to do about nothing. I don't really feel passionate about the Crusader. I just find it ridiculous that people care about something from a 1000 years ago and get offended by a knight from that era. I just don't like the idea of catering to a few people to change things that feels unnecessary to change.

Also to answer your question about Billy Graham, I don't really think much of him one way or another. I know he's a famous Christian evangelist, but I am not familiar with his work.

Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 10:58:34 AMAlso to answer your question about Billy Graham, I don't really think much of him one way or another. I know he's a famous Christian evangelist, but I am not familiar with his work.

I was just tossing out another reference for Crusades. I wasn't trying to take a stance pro or con Graham, just remembering that he used the label for his evangelistic events. So, there are a set of possible associations related to him, or his events, that people could attach to the word Crusader.

If they're not thinking about medieval knights fighting in "holy" wars.

Or, I suppose, people could try to think about "one or another version of the mascot at basketball games, abstracted from other associations". But, that too seems like a stretch to me.

Symbols matter.

Quote from: bbtds on March 31, 2017, 10:21:27 AMhttp://www.factzoo.com/mammals/vicuna-tiny-south-american-camel.html


The vicuña, a graceful yet fast animal, has a thick brown coat that protects its body against the cold in its habitat. The vicuña, because of its warm coat, is able to tolerate the cold, ice and snow. The male feels most at home and happy when it's among a group of about 5-15 females. This male vicuña will alert the females if any danger comes so that the female vicuñas can quickly run away. Younger males without a female harem will form their own groups. When the male fights, it will usually spit at the other vicuña. The vicuña can run very fast, at about 29 miles per hour (47 kph). These animals usually eat grass, and also eat small plants.

OK. You are starting to get my attention. They look to be a tasty grass fed animal that many of us would be willing to include in our diets. Why don't you post your top 10 favorite vicuna recipes so we can do a little more research. Better yet, grill or barbecue one outside the ARC and all of us can try a free sample.   :thumbsup:

« Last Edit: Today at 10:23:29 AM by bbtds »

Quote from: justducky on March 31, 2017, 02:13:23 PM

Quote from: bbtds on March 31, 2017, 10:21:27 AMhttp://www.factzoo.com/mammals/vicuna-tiny-south-american-camel.html


The vicuña, a graceful yet fast animal, has a thick brown coat that protects its body against the cold in its habitat. The vicuña, because of its warm coat, is able to tolerate the cold, ice and snow. The male feels most at home and happy when it's among a group of about 5-15 females. This male vicuña will alert the females if any danger comes so that the female vicuñas can quickly run away. Younger males without a female harem will form their own groups. When the male fights, it will usually spit at the other vicuña. The vicuña can run very fast, at about 29 miles per hour (47 kph). These animals usually eat grass, and also eat small plants.

OK. You are starting to get my attention. They look to be a tasty grass fed animal that many of us would be willing to include in our diets. Why don't you post your top 10 favorite vicuna recipes so we can do a little more research. Better yet, grill or barbecue one outside the ARC and all of us can try a free sample.   :thumbsup:

http://www.americanalpacameat.com/recipes.html

alpaca meat is very similar to vicuña

Quote from: VU2014 on March 30, 2017, 03:00:17 PM
One thing I don't understand is the concept of Valpo losing business over the mascot. As far as I know no one is not coming to Valpo because of the Crusader. Is there any data to support that Valpo is losing out on students because of a mascot?

If no one is choosing or not choosing to go to Valpo because of the mascot, then why does it matter whether it gets changed or not?

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 01, 2017, 03:06:30 PM

Quote from: VU2014 on March 30, 2017, 03:00:17 PM
One thing I don't understand is the concept of Valpo losing business over the mascot. As far as I know no one is not coming to Valpo because of the Crusader. Is there any data to support that Valpo is losing out on students because of a mascot?

If no one is choosing or not choosing to go to Valpo because of the mascot, then why does it matter whether it gets changed or not?

You still risk alienating other important stakeholders, such as alumni, friends of the university like myself (who are also donors), conservative local and state government officials, etc. A basic principle of business says that if risk (i.e., potential loss of donor dollars, goodwill) outweighs reward (increased enrollment), you don't pull the trigger except under rare circumstances.

We're good as long as none of the faculty members at a mascot protest shouts out, "Can we get some muscle over here?"

Quote from: wh on April 01, 2017, 04:26:39 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 01, 2017, 03:06:30 PM

Quote from: VU2014 on March 30, 2017, 03:00:17 PM
One thing I don't understand is the concept of Valpo losing business over the mascot. As far as I know no one is not coming to Valpo because of the Crusader. Is there any data to support that Valpo is losing out on students because of a mascot?

If no one is choosing or not choosing to go to Valpo because of the mascot, then why does it matter whether it gets changed or not?

You still risk alienating other important stakeholders, such as alumni, friends of the university like myself (who are also donors), conservative local and state government officials, etc. A basic principle of business says that if risk (i.e., potential loss of donor dollars, goodwill) outweighs reward (increased enrollment), you don't pull the trigger except under rare circumstances.

That makes sense, but I was addressing the "I'm so sick of this P.C. crap" argument, not the "Why would we damage the Valpo brand" argument.

If the potential for offending others by keeping the current mascot (who may also be stakeholders) is very small, and the potential for offending those who like the current mascot is great, then the risk/reward analysis obviously concludes that you don't make the change.

Of course, that's not the only angle available to us on this question.  For those who treasure the current mascot as precious, if you're also saying that the mascot doesn't really matter to anyone, then *that* is the point of my question.  I'm reminded of those who get angry when people protest the manger scene in front of city hall and one of their arguments is "it's just a manger scene, it's not a church service."  Well, if it's just a manger scene, than why is it so precious to you?

See what I mean?

I just have one question.... If this mascot is offensive to people, why in the world did we put the huge inflatable more ominous looking Crusader in the ARC?  (https://activerain-store.s3.amazonaws.com/image_store/uploads/4/7/8/1/6/ar128968106461874.jpg)

Why did that same image become much more prevalent in our marketing after the somewhat recent "rebranding". (http://alumni.valpo.edu/s/1347/images/editor/crusader_fund_web_page/crusader_logo2.png) (http://www.valpo.edu/brand/files/2014/07/Athletic_ValparaisoCrusader_Full_Brown_Web-300x228.png)

The previous cartoonish Crusader was mainly used for athletics.  I can't ever remember it being used for things related to the "University side" like the new more serious Crusader is sometimes used. Was this a rebranding mistake?

For complete disclosure, I voted no but have never been really happy with the new mascot and some of the rebranding in general.

Shields Up!

Looks good to me.

Remember that 2009 or 2010 ish Crusader mascot with the coffee can head and the Halloween tissue paper coat?

   (from a famous faculty protest of 2015)      "HEY,..CAN WE GET SOME MUSCLE OVER HERE?"

Quote from: crusadermoe on April 03, 2017, 04:52:46 PM
Looks good to me.

Remember that 2009 or 2010 ish Crusader mascot with the coffee can head and the Halloween tissue paper coat?

   (from a famous faculty protest of 2015)      "HEY,..CAN WE GET SOME MUSCLE OVER HERE?"

Yes, I think I was the first one to say it reminded me of Bender on Futurama.  The expressionless mascot, while better than in the early iterations, still leaves something to be desired.

I wasn't saying that the logo image or the inflatable look bad, just that it doesn't make a lot of sense, if you are worried about something being even the slightest offensive, to make it more visible than it was in the past. 

I've been busy so I'm totally late to the party on this. I'm a fairly recent alumnus, and I did graduate work at the University of North Dakota during the nickname transition there. UND and Valpo are not perfect comparisons for a variety of reasons, but it's an interesting perspective.

I'd be dead set against changing the nickname. This sounds to me like a select few students and faculty trying to strong-arm the rest of us into making a change that a majority of people either oppose or are ambivalent to, a perfect case of the "vocal minority". I'd welcome a vote amongst students and alumni to see if my suspicion is correct.

Valpo isn't the most diverse school, but a substantial portion of our international students are practicing Muslims or come from Islamic countries. These students could have come to just about any school in America or their home countries, and yet they chose Valpo, which tells me that the nickname isn't that big of a deal to them. When we start seeing plummeting enrollments from Islamic students and protests from the ones who do come here, then I may reconsider.

Of course admissions counselors aren't going to want CRUSADERS plastered all over pamphlets to international recruitment fairs. They may not want to give out free strips of bacon, but that doesn't mean we can't serve bacon at the Union. Ole Miss may not want REBELS plastered all over their pamphlets, and yet they still manage to attract thousands of African-American students to go to their school, play on their teams, etc..

I had professors at UND who were against the Sioux nickname but had no problem acknowledging or wishing "the Crusaders" well when it came up in conversation with me. Point is, I bet people are much more likely to have concerns about the nickname of their own school than nicknames that could be deemed offensive at other schools. Which suggests that in the broader context of academia nation-wide, very few people care if Valpo is the "Crusaders", or think it's offensive, or are going to broad-brush our entire school as a bunch of islamophobes.

Also, consider nicknames at other schools to which the same arguments may apply. Historically, Vikings pillaged and burned most of Britannia (not long before the Crusades). And yet, Cleveland State, Portland State, and a host of smaller schools have "Vikings" as a nickname and manage to attract thousands of students of British descent. Idaho has managed not to offend anyone with "Vandals", who were historically guilty of similar offenses. Other nicknames like Trojans, Spartans, Knights, Raiders, Pirates, Buccaneers, Minutemen, Midshipmen, Privateers, Colonels, Commodores, Musketeers, and Cavaliers could be deemed "too violent" or "celebrating war". "Blue Devils", "Sun Devils", or "Blue Demons" could be considered offensive to Christians (or other religions). "Colonials", "Explorers", and "Sooners" could be considered as "celebrating colonialism", which apparently isn't PC any more. Calling for all of these to be changed would be ridiculous, right? Yet the same arguments apply.

I am employed through academia, and have a "Go Crusaders" poster hanging up in my office. Not one student - Islamic, Christian, or neither - has complained in disgust. If someone asks about it, I will have no problem explaining what a crusader is, or why I have it up in my office. If they ask if Valpo is a place of islamophobia, I'll tell them, no, it's a very welcoming environment and a school open to those of any faith. Valpo students are not actually violent islamophobes any more than Northwestern students are actually Wildcats, Michigan students actually Wolverines, etc.

Also, nickname changes are expensive. I've heard estimates that UND has spent over $1 mil on retiring "Fighting Sioux", and choosing/commisioning a new nickname and logo. What if we spent that much? That'd be a million dollars we could be spending upgrading on-campus housing, the new aviation program, renovating the ARC, or a myriad of other noble causes. I don't know how much alumni donations would be affected. Honestly, I don't see any way donations would go *up* in the future if the nickname was changed. Miami and Marquette have gotten along just fine (jury's still out on North Dakota, university finances are a dumpster fire up there), but Valpo has half the endowment of either of those schools, and I'd imagine that even a slight dip in donations would have much greater effects here than either MU. Is that a risk we're sure about taking?

The last thing I'd like to point out is that "Crusader" has several different definitions. One can be a "crusader" for justice, light (like the university seal and motto), or knowledge (a very good thing to be at an institution of higher ed). If we have to capitulate to the vocal minority in some way, perhaps we can emphasize these latter definitions, rather than the "violent", "islamophobic" knight?

I think we should keep the nick-name but change the mascot to .... (wait for it)..........Crusader Rabbit!!!  OR........ keep the nick-name and change our mascot to the Caped Crusader, Batman!  Or, on second thought, maybe Bat Cow.

We should become the Valpo Bulldogs...Bulldogs are the only mid major(ish) teams that make the finals!

Good insights, hail. Another reason some of the recent name changes are not a perfect comparison is when a school is named after a Native American tribe, and that tribe asked for the name to be changed. Even if the original name was to honor that tribe, if the tribe says, "This doesn't honor us. In fact, it's offensive." Then that to me is different. Now if the zombie apocalypse happens and some honest-to-goodness crusaders tell us this is offensive......well then we'll have bigger problems to worry about anyway.

People can spin history any way they want, but the truth is that the Crusaders saved Christianity from extinction and a world dominated by a single religion - Islam. If not for the Crusaders, every person on earth today would be subject to the authority of Sharia Law, a set of archaic, bigoted, fundamentally evil rules that still dominate Islamic societies today.

The Crusaders role was much like Sherman's march to the sea. They both had scorched earth policies, did a lot of damage, and hurt a lot of innocent people along the way to victory. Both groups were far from perfect vessels, but they were responsible for stopping hideous ideologies from dominating the world - then and now.

Those who care about personal freedom and the free society in which we live owe as much gratitude to the Crusaders as we do "the greatest generation" for saving us from Nazi Germany or the axis of evil. If you can't honor the memory of the Crusaders, by all means change the name to something superficial and meaningless and move on. The Crusaders deserve better than being dragged through the mud by a group of pampered classroom instructors and a group of kids who live in the moment.

Beginning to think wh is not a Bernie Sanders guy..........

Quote from: wh on April 05, 2017, 12:43:15 PM
People can spin history any way they want, but the truth is that the Crusaders saved Christianity from extinction and a world dominated by a single religion - Islam. If not for the Crusaders, every person on earth today would be subject to the authority of Sharia Law, a set of archaic, bigoted, fundamentally evil rules that still dominate Islamic societies today.

Not a chance.

Quote from: wh on April 05, 2017, 12:43:15 PMIf not for the Crusaders, every person on earth today would be subject to the authority of Sharia Law, a set of archaic, bigoted, fundamentally evil rules

Just like Deuteronomy is our law.

You need to get out more. 

For those who get easily distracted by pedantry, let me be more succinct. Most of the Crusader-bashing comments in this thread completely misrepresent the indispensable contributions the Crusaders made to the preservation of Christianity in a dark period in world history.  Rest assured that your university forefathers who attached Crusaders to Valparaiso University intended the name to be honored and respected. But if today's crop of VU administrators, students, instructors and alumni are ashamed of the name or are afraid it will hurt their Middle East Islamic cash cow, do the world a favor - drop the name and move on.  You have disqualified yourself to be associated with these men of great honor - the Crusaders.     

this is the basketball section of the forum right?

Well said, WH.   You have drawn the line where it belongs. We choose our path.

I'm still liking the Vicuñas. Valpo Vicuñas!


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6d/7d/d3/6d7dd3c8dde5ab8da0eafa01a0df32f7.jpg)


http://world.time.com/2012/12/30/the-hunt-for-the-vicuna-can-this-andean-creature-be-a-cash-cow/

Why is this suddenly an issue? This name was chosen many years ago, and it's not like the crusades happened recently.

That being said I agree with Chairback, let's all get back to basketball.

First, I see no need and have no desire for a mascot change. It is both unnecessary and possibly counterproductive.      BUT

Quote from: wh on April 05, 2017, 12:43:15 PMthe truth is that the Crusaders saved Christianity from extinction and a world dominated by a single religion - Islam. If not for the Crusaders, every person on earth today would be subject to the authority of Sharia Law, a set of archaic, bigoted, fundamentally evil rules that still dominate Islamic societies today.

This is your speculation based on your opinions. You must not argue it as fact. Who knows what twists and turns might have arisen in the absence of the crusades. Maybe an unchecked Islamic advance would have resulted in its quick decline?
Nothing unites a movement like opposition to that movement.

I mean this is a real can of worms. Even you would not argue that medieval Christianity wasn't at times both barbaric and greed driven.

Enough. I suggest we sacrifice 5 vicunas to the gods then cook up a couple alpacas for the peacemaking feast. Long live the Crusader mascot!

Chairback is right.  Topics and opinions must be respected and this should not just be made to go away, but too bad we can't just take the whole topic string and move it out of basketball to "General VU Discussion" where it really belongs.  This is much more than BB, it has much more widespread ramifications, .........or maybe none?

Quote from: VULB#62 on April 06, 2017, 08:52:33 AM
Chairback is right.  Topics and opinions must be respected and this should not just be made to go away, but too bad we can't just take the whole topic string and move it out of basketball to "General VU Discussion" where it really belongs.  This is much more than BB, it has much more widespread ramifications, .........or maybe none?

Fair enough. I tend to get a bit more lax with what is discussed where after the basketball season ends but you both are right.

Carry on...

Thanks 04. Let's see where this goes from here.

On a tweet about Crusader mascot tryouts I saw this tweet


Batcow‏ @VUBatcow  Apr 17
More
Replying to @valpoathletics
I would like to motion to get rid of the crusader and make me the official mascot. I'll make you all proud. #VUBatcows


If people would embrace it. It might work.

Quote from: bbtds on April 19, 2017, 12:23:17 PM
On a tweet about Crusader mascot tryouts I saw this tweet


Batcow‏ @VUBatcow  Apr 17
More
Replying to @valpoathletics
I would like to motion to get rid of the crusader and make me the official mascot. I'll make you all proud. #VUBatcows


If people would embrace it. It might work.

https://twitter.com/VUBatcow/status/853993859579346946

I could get on the "return to Uhlan" bandwagon. The Vicuna I'm not so keen about.

Just an update on the nick-name, mascot thing. 

I just saw another reference about Crusader in reference to The College of the Holy Cross in Worchester, MA.  The HC Crusaders are a member of the Patriot League and a school with a long and rich athletic history.  The college is in the process of reviewing the name of the college newspaper -- "The Crusader."  But there is a twist.  It's just the newspaper name that is being reviewed, not the mascot.  The reason?  There is a KKK publication out of Arkansas of the same name and faculty don't want their publication confused with the KKK's.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/10/the-crusader-holy-cross-newspaper-distance-kkk/

Update on Holy Cross:



The College of the Holy Cross is mulling whether to shed its century-old sports symbol the "Crusader" out of concerns the image of a Christian warrior might be offensive to Muslims.


The future of the purple mascot "Iggy the Crusader" and " 'Sader Nation" identity is riding on the Board of Trustees' decision, currently slated to be announced Feb. 3 in the midst of the Worcester school's $400 million fundraising campaign.


The Worcester college closed an eight-week comment period yesterday after receiving "hundreds" of remarks, a statement said.


Holy Cross also held two live discussions this fall about whether the image of a knight with sword and shield associated with the brutal 11th-century wars between Christians and Muslims is an appropriate symbol in 2017....


...Class of 1956 alum Tommy Heinsohn, an NBA Hall of Famer and former Celtics coach and player, said a "significant number" of graduates are not happy.


"It's political correctness run amok," Heinsohn said yesterday. "There'll be a hue and cry if they go through with this. The necessity of this thing is beyond the pale. Get a life."


http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2017/11/holy_cross_may_shed_crusader_moniker?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2017/11/holy_cross_may_shed_crusader_moniker?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

The next victim could be the Victory Bell.  A deliberate act intending to make the opposing team out to be losers, leaving them with a feeling of inadequacy, dejection and scorn.  Needs to go!   ;)

Quote from: vu72 on November 28, 2017, 10:36:21 AM
The next victim could be the Victory Bell.  A deliberate act intending to make the opposing team out to be losers, leaving them with a feeling of inadequacy, dejection and scorn.  Needs to go!   ;)

For a moment there, this looked like a jj/setshot post!

Quote from: vu72 on November 28, 2017, 10:36:21 AMThe next victim could be the Victory Bell.  A deliberate act intending to make the opposing team out to be losers, leaving them with a feeling of inadequacy, dejection and scorn.  Needs to go!   

:thumbsup: To placate those we have humiliated it needs to be melted down then cast into peace tokens to be distributed to every institution it has victimized. Oh! I feel so ashamed for our past behavior.  :'(

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2018/02/holy_cross_will_keep_the_name_crusaders_after_concerns_that_it_was

Holy Cross to keep Crusader nickname.

I would think this is good news for VU and proponents of our Crusader nickname.

But the editors of the student newspaper announced they were changing the name of the paper from The Crusader to The Spire.

Quote from: agibson on February 05, 2018, 07:34:53 PM
But the editors of the student newspaper announced they were changing the name of the paper from The Crusader to The Spire.

I thought it was the Torch. Or are you pulling our chain?

Quote from: VULB#62 on February 09, 2018, 05:24:39 PM

Quote from: agibson on February 05, 2018, 07:34:53 PM
But the editors of the student newspaper announced they were changing the name of the paper from The Crusader to The Spire.

I thought it was the Torch. Or are you pulling our chain?

I think he was referring to the Holy Cross student newspaper.

Quote from: vu72 on February 09, 2018, 06:07:40 PM

Quote from: VULB#62 on February 09, 2018, 05:24:39 PM

Quote from: agibson on February 05, 2018, 07:34:53 PM
But the editors of the student newspaper announced they were changing the name of the paper from The Crusader to The Spire.

I thought it was the Torch. Or are you pulling our chain?

I think he was referring to the Holy Cross student newspaper.

Did you feel "scorched" by this, 62?

Did not know where to put this, but apparently Holy Cross college in last couple days dropped their use of Crusader mascot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/19/holy-cross-drops-knight-mascot-over-ties-religious/#ampshare=https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/19/holy-cross-drops-knight-mascot-over-ties-religious/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Quote from: vufan75 on March 20, 2018, 05:42:14 PM
Did not know where to put this, but apparently Holy Cross college in last couple days dropped their use of Crusader mascot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/19/holy-cross-drops-knight-mascot-over-ties-religious/#ampshare=https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/19/holy-cross-drops-knight-mascot-over-ties-religious/

Weird. And subtle, I think? I don't _think_ the President is directly contradicting the board, but it's hard to tell in this short piece. My best guess is that the board decision stands and "the nickname Crusaders for its athletic teams" remains. But that the college will stop using the knight in its logo and the mascot will no longer be a knight.

So, maybe this is a (clever?) attempt to thoroughly re-brand the Crusader. They keep the name. But try to disassociate it with military connections.

I'd assumed, at Valpo, that a switch to the Knights or the Uhlan or something, while keeping the military imagery, would be easier.

Interesting.

I'll be curious to see what they start to use as a mascot.

Sounds like my guess was about right

[tweet]976180017884483584[/tweet]

[tweet]976180866555826180[/tweet]

Chatting a bit with Mr. Stephens, apparently the university statement said they would "retire [their] costumed mascot". Not clear what, if anything, will replace it.

I don't really want to get into the cross - but, I can't help but noticing that the shield logo that replaces the old "Crusader + shield + name" has the university monogram as the shield logo. The old logo had a cross. Doesn't have to mean they took the cross away "on purpose" or are "rejecting the cross" or whatever. Probably their primary logo should have some deliberate nod to the name of the university, as per the monogram. But, it's interesting.

If you want to be prestigious and very vague in the meaning of your mascot, may I suggest they consider having someone in costume as a TREE. 

You could be just the second on your block to do it.

Quote from: agibson on March 21, 2018, 10:12:07 AM
Chatting a bit with Mr. Stephens, apparently the university statement said they would "retire [their] costumed mascot". Not clear what, if anything, will replace it.

I don't really want to get into the cross - but, I can't help but noticing that the shield logo that replaces the old "Crusader + shield + name" has the university monogram as the shield logo. The old logo had a cross. Doesn't have to mean they took the cross away "on purpose" or are "rejecting the cross" or whatever. Probably their primary logo should have some deliberate nod to the name of the university, as per the monogram. But, it's interesting.

To an extent, Valpo was the model for this decision by Holy Cross. We dropped the fighting crusader cartoonish logo and replaced it with a shield with a torch in the rebranding effort a few years ago. What VU did not do was redifine the meaning of "crusader" as did HC. We also did not "retire" the knight mascot.

I'm almost afraid to say it but the non-action on the Valpo Crusader mascot seems to be more of the student-body being more apathetic towards athletics than not really caring about offending other religious groups.

As a historic German Lutheran school, how about a giant soft pretzel as the mascot?

Quote from: usc4valpo on July 16, 2018, 04:36:58 PM
As a historic German Lutheran school, how about a giant soft pretzel as the mascot?

The truth is that historically the pretzel is most commonly linked to Catholic monks who used the soft dough double twisted into two cross sections and washed in "soda" or lye bakery treat as an incentive for children to learn their prayers. Good for Notre Dame but does Valpo want a mascot that only Ben's soft prets would be happy about. 

Quote from: bbtds on July 16, 2018, 10:12:39 PMmascot that only Ben's soft prets would be happy about. 

would they make me say "Have a Pretzel Day" at the end of the game???  Pullease.

Quote from: talksalot on July 19, 2018, 04:39:20 PM

Quote from: bbtds on July 16, 2018, 10:12:39 PMmascot that only Ben's soft prets would be happy about.

would they make me say "Have a Pretzel Day" at the end of the game???  Pullease.

Talksalot on PA: FINAL SCORE, Crusaders 88, Northern Iowa 79, That makes it a double pretzel night for all fans who take their ticket stub to Ben's Soft Pretzels because the Crusaders have scored a double pretzel. Go to Ben's Soft Pretzels and Have a Pretzel Day!

That would be an awesome promotion! It would work on whatever  level you choose for free pretzels.

If the Crusaders' point total has an 8 in it win or lose: 2 for 1 pretzels

If the Crusaders score at least 80 points and win: free pretzels

If they score exactly  88 and win: 2 free pretzels

Or something along those lines

Valid for Home Games Only  Redeemable only with ticket stub prior to the next Crusader home game This might boost attendance.

Or how about a promotion with Culver's that promises a free scoop of ice cream with every Crusader home win? Excludes Flavor of the Day\Concretes\Sundaes Redeemable only with ticket stub prior to the next Crusader home game. If both this and my Ben's idea are in play, maybe let the patrons choose the one they'd rather have or come up with a system (hole punch for one stamp for the other, or a mark with a marker)

Another idea I have is if the Crusaders score a double number like 66 77 88, patrons can bring their ticket stubs to McDonald's for a free McDouble win or lose. Again valid with ticket stub prior to next home game.

If we want to expand our reach throughout the region, we should call out to see if restaurants in local towns\cities to see if they would like to participate. This would give us an excuse to advertise and market the team somehow in their store by putting up signage about the promotion, having the restaurants list themselves as a proud partner of the Valparaiso Crusaders, and would allow us to put out pocket schedules in these places for interested parties\to drum up interest in the program.

We could also potentially partner with Albanese if we want to try to expand our reach beyond Valparaiso\Porter County. Gummis are fairly cheap there, like $3-4\pound so maybe a partnership where fans could bring their ticket stubs to Albanese for a free pound of gummis after every Crusader win. Valid with ticket stub only prior to the  next home game.

If they don't want to commit to a full pound promotion we could  make it a half pound promotion for every time the Crusaders go into the locker room with a halftime lead. Bring in your ticket stub and correctly mention the halftime score for a free half pound of Albanese gummis. Valid with ticket stub only prior to the  next home game.

Just some ideas bouncing around my brain  that may boost attendance and interest in the program and allign with our stated interests of deepening our ties with the community and increasing our visibility throughout the region. I'm not sure how many of these have been tried or are even feasible. I'm just spitballing.

Maybe Family Express could do a promotional price after Valpo wins?  They are spread around the region and I think the owner is a big fan.

Doesn't McDonalds already do a promo thing with tickets?

This issue has been discussed in the past, but I am sure nobody is surprised this has now resurfaced, apparently with resolve and commitment. Following the current atmosphere and actions sweeping the country, a determined coalition has now been formed to insist on the removal of the Valparaiso Crusader as the university mascot. The group has established a Facebook page for organization and planning. It declares: "The Crusader nickname and mascot represent war, violence, racism, xenophobia, and forced assimilation—one of the darkest periods of Christian history. As our nation and world face a moment of long overdue reckoning on diversity, equity, and inclusion, we believe our alma mater should take a bold stand and make real change."

This cancel culture is going to go too far, and it is going to bite the left in the end.  I've even seen people going after Paw Patrol, because it glamorizes the police force.

Quote from: valpotx on June 25, 2020, 03:41:02 AM
This cancel culture is going to go too far, and it is going to bite the left in the end.  I've even seen people going after Paw Patrol, because it glamorizes the police force.

I mean, I get that it sounds silly. I don't think I've ever seen an episode of Paw Patrol. But, the way police are portrayed in the media matters.

I find the term "forced assimilation" nearly comically ironic language from this new self-righteous PC group.  In making that claim they should start by studying the practice of Muslims taking a first born from a conquered people as a "blood tax" and forcing them to convert to Muslim and be warriors.   

Doubt me?   Look up the term "Janisarries" by google and cut through the new politically correct polishing of the the CENTRAL TRUTH.  These kids were taken from Christian peasant famlies and forcibly converted.  If you can find me a case where that was done by conquering Christians with Muslim kids, then point out the cite and I will seriously consider myself better educated on this topic. 

Oh...and by the way....before I forget...there have been a few violent Muslim acts and forcible repression of women that continues through TODAY.   Might that supression of women be brought forward by this group at a VU discussion forum at some time soon?  Allow for the pro and con debate of who suppresses whom?
   

Quote from: agibson on June 26, 2020, 05:54:46 PM

Quote from: valpotx on June 25, 2020, 03:41:02 AM
This cancel culture is going to go too far, and it is going to bite the left in the end.  I've even seen people going after Paw Patrol, because it glamorizes the police force.

I mean, I get that it sounds silly. I don't think I've ever seen an episode of Paw Patrol. But, the way police are portrayed in the media matters.

It's a kid's show, with dogs of various occupations.  Come on, man...

http://www.pawpatrol.com/

Quote from: valpopal on June 24, 2020, 08:16:31 PM
This issue has been discussed in the past, but I am sure nobody is surprised this has now resurfaced, apparently with resolve and commitment. Following the current atmosphere and actions sweeping the country, a determined coalition has now been formed to insist on the removal of the Valparaiso Crusader as the university mascot. The group has established a Facebook page for organization and planning. It declares: "The Crusader nickname and mascot represent war, violence, racism, xenophobia, and forced assimilation—one of the darkest periods of Christian history. As our nation and world face a moment of long overdue reckoning on diversity, equity, and inclusion, we believe our alma mater should take a bold stand and make real change."

Valpo is a damaged ship taking on water in the midst of a turbulent sea, while changing captain's in hopes of keeping it afloat. The very survival of this magnificent vessel and its entire staff is at risk. While the rest of the staff is desperately bailing and patching and bailing, somewhere deep in the ship's bowels the social director is organizing a group of disconcerted shipmates to leverage the new captain into changing the ship's name to something that better tickles their fancy. Stay tuned to see how it turns out!

We are in the middle of a pandemic, we have riots, 10s of millions are unemployed, and there is a discussion about removing the mascot. Don't you think we have bigger issues that changing a university mascot? Seriously?
I think we need to get our priorities straight.

Quote from: valpotx on June 28, 2020, 12:32:28 AM

Quote from: agibson on June 26, 2020, 05:54:46 PM

Quote from: valpotx on June 25, 2020, 03:41:02 AM
This cancel culture is going to go too far, and it is going to bite the left in the end.  I've even seen people going after Paw Patrol, because it glamorizes the police force.

I mean, I get that it sounds silly. I don't think I've ever seen an episode of Paw Patrol. But, the way police are portrayed in the media matters.

It's a kid's show, with dogs of various occupations.  Come on, man...

http://www.pawpatrol.com/

As a dad with two daughters (aged 4 and 8) who like Paw Patrol, I've never had an issue with the show. I have seen many episodes, and never thought much of it. From what I've heard, there are two objections:  One of the characters is named Chase. He is a police pup, and it supposedly portrays the police as honest, loyal and helpful. Second, in every episode, there is some sort of issue/disaster/problem, and the Paw Patrol comes to the rescue. Sometimes they foil the villain, Mayor Humdinger of the neighboring town and his Kitten Catastrophe Crew . "Whenever there's trouble, just yelp for help!" is the show's tagline, and the Paw Patrol pups and their related vehicles come to save the day. It is sad that positive portrayals of the police, or calling emergency services for help have somehow become political statements, but it is where we are today.

WH nailed it.  Deep in the bowels apart from the captain's reality.

What better time to topple and pull down your history, heritage, or symbols in the spirit of Rahm Emmanuel.  As we know Rham served Obama as chief of staff at the depth of the  2009 financial crisis.  He said, "never let a crisis go to waste" (to socialize the economy starting with health care.)     

Quote from: crusadermoe on June 29, 2020, 04:56:24 PM
WH nailed it.  Deep in the bowels apart from the captain's reality.

What better time to topple and pull down your history, heritage, or symbols in the spirit of Rahm Emmanuel.  As we know Rham served Obama as chief of staff at the depth of the  2009 financial crisis.  He said, "never let a crisis go to waste" (to socialize the economy starting with health care.)     

These individuals are trying to "catch the wave" of national dissonance and anarchy and leverage it for their own purpose. If anyone else is clamoring for a name change right now, I certainly haven't heard of it.  I have 2 HS grandsons (cousins) considering Valpo's Engineering program. They are bright, serious-minded young men. Believe me, the last thing they or their parents are thinking about is the name of the mascot.   

I am not a huge fan of the Crusader nickname, but I agree that this is not the time and place for a name change. I have never heard that the university and its population engages in any bias towards Muslims, though I am sure as part of society there are probably a few isolated (and repugnant) cases at the university. Heck, the root of my knowledge on Islam (which proved invaluable later in my prior career) was my learning at Valparaiso. So while I might argue that the nickname is problematic, the gain of changing the name is minimal and the cost of trying to change it could be great. There would be a vocal minority in favor of it and a vocal minority against it. They may well create publicly visible tensions that are likely to turn off many potential applicants. This is regardless of the potential applicants' position on the issue - they would just not want to go into an environment with a lot of heated emotions when they have many other options. The whole ballgame for the next year or more is to attract students, get them to attend the university, and provide great value (within and outside the classroom). This is what keeps the university financially sustainable.

I really don't understand why some faculty don't see what is really important right now. Wouldn't they create more "good" by teaching an extra class (to generate incremental revenue for Valpo) or by taking part in the massive issues of logistic planning or building relationships with prospective or incoming students? If they taught an additional class, they could: take the pay, if they need it, and then spend it in the Valparaiso area; defer the pay (via a future teaching load credit) and create near term margin for Valpo; or take the pay and then donate it back to the university for minority scholarships.

Bottom line: our priority right now needs to be sustaining the institution, because so much is lost if the institution fails.

Quote from: wh on June 30, 2020, 11:44:13 AM

These individuals are trying to "catch the wave" of national dissonance and anarchy and leverage it for their own purpose. If anyone else is clamoring for a name change right now, I certainly haven't heard of it.  I have 2 HS grandsons (cousins) considering Valpo's Engineering program. They are bright, serious-minded young men. Believe me, the last thing they or their parents are thinking about is the name of the mascot.   

Two quick points: First, I can't speak to leverage, yet some momentum for the change is visible. There is a Facebook group titled "Coalition to Retire the Crusader" that was started on June 24, 2020 and as of a few minutes ago had 1,950 members. That group is talking about the mascot, yet also has many side discussions about issues happening at the University. (BTW, I've been invited to join that FB group, yet have only lurked and read the posts.)

Second, as a VU Engineering alum, I can attest to the quality of education at Valpo. I received a world-class engineering foundation and a well-rounded liberal arts background that has allowed me to be very successful. There are only two main downsides to Valpo Engineering. First,  it does not have the name cachet of say MIT, Purdue or Northwestern, especially outside of the region. Second, VU engineering has a smaller course catalog, so someone who wants to do Chemical Engineering would need to find a different location. That said, the undergraduate engineering is at least as good or better than any of the bigger schools I mentioned. 

Second, as a VU Engineering alum, I can attest to the quality of education at Valpo. I received a world-class engineering foundation and a well-rounded liberal arts background that has allowed me to be very successful. There are only two main downsides to Valpo Engineering. First,  it does not have the name cachet of say MIT, Purdue or Northwestern, especially outside of the region. Second, VU engineering has a smaller course catalog, so someone who wants to do Chemical Engineering would need to find a different location. That said, the undergraduate engineering is at least as good or better than any of the bigger schools I mentioned. 

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I am also a VU Engineering alum. I fully agree with valpo95's comments, but add that the faculty (back in my time and now) really make the difference for Valpo's engineering students. They are consistently committed to engineering education and the students. They're not going to make it easy for any student, but they will personally endeavor to help every student achieve. To anyone considering Valparaiso's College of Engineering, I strongly recommend meeting with faculty to develop their own impressions.

Valpo95's comments about the mix of liberal arts with a great engineering program are also spot on. Years ago, I was involved in recruiting new Valparaiso engineering graduates for the company that I worked for. The managers who hired these graduates without exception said that Valpo engineers had very good engineering skills, but differentiate themselves in their ability to communicate and work effectively as part of a larger team.

So I am NOT a Valpo engineering grad!  I'd like to hear those who are, and know what's going on right now, as to the engineering facilities.  The Don Fites addtion as well as having the only undergraduate solar furnace in the country, would lead me to expect the facilities to be just fine.

Too many Valpo grads seem to have inferiority complexes. You know, "Valpo is fine but it is no where near the Ivy league".  Clearly there are many areas of study at Valpo that are just "OK", but there are others that are every bit as good as institutions with much higher profiles.
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Quote from: vu72 on June 30, 2020, 03:45:33 PM
So I am NOT a Valpo engineering grad!  I'd like to hear those who are, and know what's going on right now, as to the engineering facilities.  The Don Fites addtion as well as having the only undergraduate solar furnace in the country, would lead me to expect the facilities to be just fine.

Too many Valpo grads seem to have inferiority complexes. You know, "Valpo is fine but it is no where near the Ivy league".  Clearly there are many areas of study at Valpo that are just "OK", but there are others that are every bit as good as institutions with much higher profiles.

Can't say that I am an expert on equipment and facilities in engineering colleges, but here are my impressions:

-The Don Fites addition is excellent space. The layout focuses on great working and lab space for students.
-Valpo is probably as good as most and better than many undergraduate programs for engineering facilities (equipment, etc.).
-Having a great piece of equipment or lab likely is only valuable to a small percentage of students. A solar furnace may make a real difference for a mechanical engineering student, but is likely to have a lot of value for an Electrical and Computer Engineering student (they would probably use it to try to make a pizza in 30 seconds). You need good equipment across all the disciplines, which I believe Valpo has for an undergraduate-only engineering school.
-Valpo is probably far short of schools like Purdue on engineering facilities, but that is not the main issue. I am sure that Purdue has some of the very best equipment, but it is prioritized for graduate work and Professors' research. At Valpo, the priority for all equipment and labs is for student learning.

I was a EE grad. Comparing Valpo to Purdue or MIT is like comparing an apple to an orange. Valpo is a university for education, not research. My only issue was the limited, not as diverse  classes you can take senior year compared to the bigger schools. There is not much Valpo can do to accommodate this.

Again the mascot debate during these times is stupid. Time to get priorities straight.

'95, 84v2, '72 and USC,
Your personal comments are much appreciated. I've already passed them on. A little more information is probably in order. First, both families are looking for a smaller private university for exactly the reasons you mentioned - a strong engineering program combined with a solid liberal arts foundation, the potential to build mentor/mentee relationships, smaller campus life experience, etc. BTW Purdue is great; it's just not the fit they're looking for. As to focus areas, the guys are interested in mechanical and computer engineering, respectively. They told me Valpo offers both.

Quote from: usc4valpo on June 30, 2020, 05:42:16 PM
Again the mascot debate during these times is stupid. Time to get priorities straight.

Agree. At a time when unity is needed in the university community to deal with a financial crisis, let's instead introduce something divisive and costly!  ???

I have had enough of these do-gooders!  They should be worried about doing their jobs better and more effectively.  I would guess that most of those complaining never go to a sporting event either...who knows.  The next thing they will complain about will be our colors.  Peddle your wares somewhere else because some of us are tired of your noise.  Sorry...I had to vent. :)

Thank you - we have bigger problems than partitioning a mascot name. Let's get this university stable again.

I'm seriously concerned about Valpo. I've heard the university needs to cut $25 million from its budget and that entire programs are on the chopping block.

When you say "I've heard" does that mean directly from an inside source familiar with the issue.

And TBH I could think of a few programs that provide little to no opportunity that removing wouldn't be horrible. Short term optics are of course different. 

I haven't heard 25 million but I have heard that the university wants to make cuts now that will ensure that even if there is another resurgence of the pandemic they will not have to continue to make cuts through the years. That could lead to some severe cuts in the future. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the board and had decided it was more comfortable being a smaller university instead of choosing to try to grow larger to ensure financial stability. Now it seems the best way to survive this time is to shrink and focus on what you do very well.

Taking the financial/budget impacts that have been released by other private universities and then adjusting for Valpo's size, $25M sounds too high. Add in that Valpo has already undertaken other cost mitigation moves (i.e. graduated temporary salary reductions) and it is really difficult to believe that the current budget shortfall is anything close to $25M. This, of course, assumes there are not any additional unexpected financial shocks (e.g., all students not being able to return to campus in the fall). My guess is that Valpo (like any responsible university) is planning what they would do in a "far worse" scenario...but not taking those steps unless it is absolutely necessary.

That said, pruning programs which have little demand is probably a good move.

Quote from: crusader05 on July 01, 2020, 10:09:14 AM
I haven't heard 25 million but I have heard that the university wants to make cuts now that will ensure that even if there is another resurgence of the pandemic they will not have to continue to make cuts through the years. That could lead to some severe cuts in the future. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the board and had decided it was more comfortable being a smaller university instead of choosing to try to grow larger to ensure financial stability. Now it seems the best way to survive this time is to shrink and focus on what you do very well.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I think it's pretty clear now that the university lost its way when your president rolled out a new strategic plan to increase enrollment to 6000 students. This came at a time when every indicator - declining population trends, increasing online competition, tuition increases outpacing the rate of inflation, student debt load, etc. - all pointed in the opposite direction.  They gambled the university's entire future on tapping into a burgeoning, lucrative foreign student market, which someone naively believed could be leveraged and sustained over the long term at a level of 2000 students per year.  IMO, this was a remarkable strategic blunder, the kind for which business case studies are produced and dissected in MBA programs.     

It actually wasn't just Heckler's choice. He presented two options to the board and higher level admin. We need to either shrink a bit or grow larger because our current path was unsustainable. A majority of stake holders opted to grow there is more than enough blame to pass around for this situation and a lot of it has to do with board members and other Valpo people who long predated Heckler who missed the boat on this as well.

If you haven't seen the poll Paul Oren conducted on twitter:

A Facebook group aimed at changing Valparaiso's mascot started up last week and more than 1,700 people joined in four days. Do you think Valparaiso should move away from the Crusader nickname?


Yes
18.7%


No
81.3%


475 votes · Final results

Glad to hear that the 1,950 person "mascot" Facebook group voted 75% against the change.  Good.  That sounds like a group I would enjoy tormenting.

Anyway, the idea that the VU budget cut faces a $25m budget cut is likely a big exaggeration.  But...the CFO did publicly state a $9m operating defciit and that was pre-pandemic.   So it may have grown higher.  But $25m is highly doubtful.

Once again, WH nails the core issue succintly.  The leaders missed the 6,000 student target by about 2,000, kept all their overhead, and even added pointless positions like vice-provosts etc.   

To be clear, the poll I ran was on Twitter. The group with 2,000 people is on Facebook. I'm not sure there was a lot of crossover.

What would they change it to? I think they'd have to have something decent and meaningful in mind before making the change, otherwise you end up with something stupid like "Golden Eagles."

The "something stupid" thing is that they want to change the name.

Quote from: a3uge on July 03, 2020, 04:56:30 PM
What would they change it to? I think they'd have to have something decent and meaningful in mind before making the change, otherwise you end up with something stupid like "Golden Eagles."

How about "Bulldogs" ?Hardly anyone uses that one!   :rotfl:

If it was ever changed, I'd be fine with going back to the Uhlan.  Definitely unique.  Heck, we're already on the Wiki for an Uhlan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhlan

FYI: Representatives of both the Student Senate and the Faculty Senate are preparing and circulating for signatures resolutions to be sent to President Heckler and the Board of Directors at the start of fall semester that demand removal of the Crusader.

Well, bless their little "woke" hearts......!.   

wow, that will solve the big recent issues likes finances at Valpo! what a fricking waste...

If they decide to poll alumni, any change to the Crusader probably won't go over well.  The word Crusader is a historical term, not a derogatory term, like the Redskins.  The Vikings (my ancestors) did a lot of abysmal things in their wars, would they be next?

Also, though I get why someone of the Muslim faith might not be happy about such a mascot, the Crusades were not just against Muslims, but also against Pagans.

Stay tuned for an important announcement later this week.

I don't fault them for potentially announcing a review of the name, but hopefully that review allows for a thorough analysis on impact to alumni, and not just the feelings of the moment.  Though I am sure that most folks will continue to donate, if you do something to upset even 1/4 of donations during this type of economy for institutions of higher learning, that could be catastrophic. 

Quote from: valpotx on July 20, 2020, 12:37:00 AM
I don't fault them for potentially announcing a review of the name, but hopefully that review allows for a thorough analysis on impact to alumni, and not just the feelings of the moment.  Though I am sure that most folks will continue to donate, if you do something to upset even 1/4 of donations during this type of economy for institutions of higher learning, that could be catastrophic. 

I agree with valpotx, but I think that there is another perspective that also needs to be considered. In an ideal world, people on all sides would present their positions in a respectful manner - recognizing that sustaining the institution is critical. While (as i have said before) I am not fond of the nickname, does anyone associated with the university really show behaviors or take actions that are discriminatory to Muslims? Unfortunately, the world is not ideal and I am afraid that a small percentage of people on both sides of this argument will move from making points to support their position to personally attacking those who disagree with them. Turmoil from personal attacks is more likely to draw local, regional and national attention, which could reduce potential students' interest in attending Valpo. Regardless of their position, they would not want to attend because they do not want to be in a situation with turmoil...and they have many other choices in which they perceive no turmoil. There is a time for this debate, but it is not during an existential crisis.

Spending energy to debate or change the nickname at this time of crisis is truly dumb. It is time for people to get their priorities straight.

My thought process is this:

What's the purpose of a mascot? Is it to be divisive and create conflict or is it to bring people together in pride and excitement. Is it to be fun or is it to be something that becomes a lightening rod that our political environment plays out over?

I've posted before that while the crusader never really bothered me (hence my name) over the past few years I've felt that it does not seem to be a big deal to me to have a different one   in light of others concerns about it.

People can disagree on whether or not the Crusader represents what it does and how much that should hold weight but isn't the fact that we're having this debate a sign that the mascot is not doing what it should for the university and it's alumna?

Some of the things said about people who support and those who want a change tell me it's mere presence at this point is causing more divisiveness and while every decision a university makes loses some people making the decision to change now is better than this place we are in now.

What a waste of time!   Instead of spending time and worrying over changing the mascot/name,  faculty should spend that time improving their lesson plans so to be a more effective prof.

Quote from: crusader05 on July 20, 2020, 08:50:25 AM
Some of the things said about people who support and those who want a change tell me it's mere presence at this point is causing more divisiveness and while every decision a university makes loses some people making the decision to change now is better than this place we are in now.

This logic sounds like something I have heard recently elsewhere about statues of Columbus, Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln, St. Juniper Serra, etc. or the renaming of college buildings honoring past presidents, or now even the calls for removal of Mt. Rushmore. The manipulative tactic is to exploit any perceived reason for conflict and cause disruption so that the simple hope for avoidance of conflict becomes a reason for the majority capitulating to the change. It is a form of emotional extortion. No matter what the final decision, it should not be reached due to such coercive conditions.

Deciding whether or not something is worth a fight and further conflict is absolutely part of decision making, compromise and a society in general.

Also, it avoids my point which is "what is the purpose of a mascot?"  Mascots change often, they evolve, sometimes for reasons due to what we would consider political sometimes not. But the question if  something that is supposed to be fun and uniting isn't and questioning whether that means it's not serving its purpose is not "coercive" or emotional extortion. In fact using phrases such heavily loaded phrases liked coercive and extortion rather than actually respond to my point about mascots is interesting if you are concerned about manipulation.

We are currently talking about a mascot, not Mount Rushmore, I'd imagine that the stakes are much higher for the latter than the former and therefore would require a different type of conversation. Most arguments for and against things have shades of similar phrasing, that doesn't mean they are not meaningful or important to consider depending on the  situations.

Quote from: crusader05 on July 20, 2020, 10:48:08 AM
Deciding whether or not something is worth a fight and further conflict is absolutely part of decision making

I agree completely. That was my point, which is why I focused on the tactic of exploiting conflict and causing disruption as a form of emotional extortion. The manipulation is a creation of such conditions to the point that the other side deems it is not "worth a fight and further conflict," and therefore capitulates. I am not arguing one position or another. I am objecting to the majority succumbing on the basis of this calculated strategy.

Here's my two cents:

There are good arguments for changing the mascot, and good arguments for keeping it. (In particular, there are positives with being crusader, a person or group who advocates for political, social, or religious change in society.) I also don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with the mascot, at least no more than anything inherently wrong someone being described as a crusader for mental health, a crusader against drunk driving, or any other positive ways this word has been used in the past.

Previously, I probably would have advocated for maintaining the name - as a student I remember being supportive of the name. However, my thinking has changed over time and I'm fine if the University decides to go in a different direction.

I have a "Valparaiso Crusaders" t-shirt that was given to me as a gift some years ago. The "Valparaiso" part is in small letters and is in light gold, which doesn't show up very well on a white-t shirt. The "Crusader" part is in a large font in dark brown, and pretty visible. In some instances, especially in recent years, I have not worn that t-shirt to some events because I don't want to give offense to someone, for example my colleague from Turkey would have no idea about the Valparaiso Crusaders yet knows of the crusades; it is just not worth it to possibly give offense to him or his family. In the last year or so, I have been even more careful with it because I don't want some idiot causing trouble, especially if my two young daughters are with me. Now, I still wear that shirt at times, I'm still proud of my University and don't think the mascot has been a major issue in the life of Valpo. Yet if I (or anyone else) has to think about how not to give offense to someone, or worry about someone taking it the wrong way because of a nickname/mascot, then it is probably time to transition to another one that doesn't need explanation or context.

I don't really care if they change the mascot name, I just think it is a waste of energy.  If Valpo does not take care of their current financial situation, the decision of a mascot is a moot point. Professors and students need to focus on keeping the university strong and out of a cash sink, especially during these trying times.

Quote from: usc4valpo on July 20, 2020, 02:13:03 PM
I don't really care if they change the mascot name, I just think it is a waste of energy.  If Valpo does not take care of their current financial situation, the decision of a mascot is a moot point. Professors and students need to focus on keeping the university strong and out of a cash sink, especially during these trying times.

Amen brother on all points!

The fact that Valpo is considering changing mascot, while at the same time considering cutting the social work department is proof the university has their priorities backwards. 

Quote from: valpo64 on July 20, 2020, 09:28:53 AM
What a waste of time!   Instead of spending time and worrying over changing the mascot/name,  faculty should spend that time improving their lesson plans so to be a more effective prof.

As if collegiate professors were only capable of accomplishing one thing in a lifetime.

Quote from: usc4valpo on July 20, 2020, 02:13:03 PM
I don't really care if they change the mascot name, I just think it is a waste of energy.  If Valpo does not take care of their current financial situation, the decision of a mascot is a moot point. Professors and students need to focus on keeping the university strong and out of a cash sink, especially during these trying times.

There's a professor at the university who has said that changing the nickname will bring in more students, which would help make the university strong and "out of a cash sink."

Quote from: Pgmado on July 21, 2020, 04:23:18 AM

Quote from: usc4valpo on July 20, 2020, 02:13:03 PM
I don't really care if they change the mascot name, I just think it is a waste of energy.  If Valpo does not take care of their current financial situation, the decision of a mascot is a moot point. Professors and students need to focus on keeping the university strong and out of a cash sink, especially during these trying times.

There's a professor at the university who has said that changing the nickname will bring in more students, which would help make the university strong and "out of a cash sink."

I hope they're not a math or economics professor

Perhaps I am missing something and would like to hear this strategy.

Quote from: Pgmado on July 21, 2020, 04:23:18 AM

Quote from: usc4valpo on July 20, 2020, 02:13:03 PM
I don't really care if they change the mascot name, I just think it is a waste of energy.  If Valpo does not take care of their current financial situation, the decision of a mascot is a moot point. Professors and students need to focus on keeping the university strong and out of a cash sink, especially during these trying times.

There's a professor at the university who has said that changing the nickname will bring in more students, which would help make the university strong and "out of a cash sink."

With no data or empirical analysis to support that claim. Additionally, if one makes that claim one also would need to include the cost of changing the name in the model and would need to include the degree that it changes the financial situation. Again, I am not fond of the mascot/nickname, but arguments without foundation do not help.

Quote from: usc4valpo on July 21, 2020, 06:16:06 AM
Perhaps I am missing something and would like to hear this strategy.

Union Street Hoops "The Mascot Episode" (https://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/inside-vu-sports/podcast-union-street-hoops-the-mascot-episode/article_560d6d7e-bd61-11ea-8d45-67a37d9cc69e.html) Union Street Hoops episode from July 3rd.

FWalum - Thank you for posting. I had never listened to one of those podcasts. Paul may be a bit rambling, but he really does a great job of bringing out an honest discussion.

I truly appreciate Sami's comments and his devotion to the university. Professors like him are what makes Valpo great.

That said, there are a few issues with some of the arguments made in the podcast (note, again, that I am not fond of the mascot/nickname).
-People on the Facebook page say that they will donate money to Valpo to support the change. To what degree? 100 people each donating $100 would be a small fraction of the cost. Additionally, would donations be in addition to other donations or would they just be donations that are now targeted to changing the nickname/mascot that would have gone elsewhere.
-I really do not think that the major donors are going to not donate money if the university changes the mascot/nickname. Their motivation for their substantial donations are for far greater reasons.
-Sami makes the argument that 50% of potential students who he talks with who are Muslim are immediately turned off when they hear the nickname/mascot - so Valpo is losing potential students. This may well be true. However, if one makes that economic (not values based) argument, then one also needs to consider how many potential students might not consider Valpo because of the name change or the turmoil associated with people not respecting each others' views (as Paul mentioned is already happening on the Facebook page). Prospective students are not going to choose Valpo because of the mascot/nickname (as Paul states), but they will avoid Valpo if they perceive a divided environment where those with opposing views are not respected - and that could have major financial impacts.

Quote from: vu84v2 on July 21, 2020, 09:57:42 AM
FWalum - Thank you for posting. I had never listened to one of those podcasts. Paul may be a bit rambling, but he really does a great job of bringing out an honest discussion.

I truly appreciate Sami's comments and his devotion to the university. Professors like him are what makes Valpo great.

That said, there are a few issues with some of the arguments made in the podcast (note, again, that I am not fond of the mascot/nickname).
-People on the Facebook page say that they will donate money to Valpo to support the change. To what degree? 100 people each donating $100 would be a small fraction of the cost. Additionally, would donations be in addition to other donations or would they just be donations that are now targeted to changing the nickname/mascot that would have gone elsewhere.
-I really do not think that the major donors are going to not donate money if the university changes the mascot/nickname. Their motivation for their substantial donations are for far greater reasons.
-Sami makes the argument that 50% of potential students who he talks with who are Muslim are immediately turned off when they hear the nickname/mascot - so Valpo is losing potential students. This may well be true. However, if one makes that economic (not values based) argument, then one also needs to consider how many potential students might not consider Valpo because of the name change or the turmoil associated with people not respecting each others' views (as Paul mentioned is already happening on the Facebook page). Prospective students are not going to choose Valpo because of the mascot/nickname (as Paul states), but they will avoid Valpo if they perceive a divided environment where those with opposing views are not respected - and that could have major financial impacts.

If you listen, you'll hear Sami say he "has no idea why the Christians invaded"  One sided?

Quote from: vu72 on July 21, 2020, 10:25:54 AM

Quote from: vu84v2 on July 21, 2020, 09:57:42 AM
FWalum - Thank you for posting. I had never listened to one of those podcasts. Paul may be a bit rambling, but he really does a great job of bringing out an honest discussion.

I truly appreciate Sami's comments and his devotion to the university. Professors like him are what makes Valpo great.

If you listen, you'll hear Sami say he "has no idea why the Christians invaded"  One sided?

Sami is a fine professor. However, although he wants to get rid of the Valpo mascot, if you go to Sami's Facebook page, you will see he is a fan of the Cleveland Indians and proudly has an image of Chief Wahoo in his banner photo.  ???

Looks like Valpo is not alone in this debate.
These Schools all dropped the Crusader Mascot.
Wheaton College (2000).
Point Loma Nazarene University (2002).
University of Incarnate Word (now ncaa D1) dropped the name in (2004).
Clarke University (2007).
Eastern Nazarene College (2009).
Susquehanna University (2016).
Northwest Nazarene University (2017).

Capital University a Lutheran university outside of Columbus OH with just over 3,300 students announced this month that they will drop their Crusader mascot as well.

https://www.dispatch.com/sports/20200713/capital-university-to-drop-rsquocrusadersrsquo-nickname-mascot-cappy

And a prof says changing the mascot will bring in more students?  Are you kidding me?  And this person is a faculty member at Valparaiso University???????
Maybe we really do need to clean house and get rid of some programs/profs.  If so, let's start with this person.

valpo64 - Perhaps you need to look at the broader set of issues from the Podcast and surrounding this professor.

-He is a professor in Electrical and Computer Engineering - Valpo is not getting rid of that program, nor is it being downsized.
-By any account, he is a good effective teacher. Furthermore, he is likely taking less pay than he could earn at other universities because the academic mission of a school like Valpo resonates with him.
-While recommending that Valpo change the mascot/nickname, he seems to be as personally committed to the university as anyone could hope of a professor.

I didn't agree with his argument that changing the nickname/mascot would bring in more students, but he is free to make that argument. Can't we disagree on issues or assumptions as adults without hating the other person or wanting him or her removed? Perhaps you need to understand that rejecting the "cancel culture" goes both ways.

Your point is well-taken, VU84.  My comment was very much tongue-in-cheek.  He may be the best prof on the entire campus and perhaps the most dedicated to VU's success than anyone, I don't know.  However his comment/opinion was about the most stupid thing I have heard in a very long time.

I actually thought it was Decent,, interesting,  graceful interview, and I disagree that changing the mAscot nickname will have an impact in student enrollment, positive or negative.

Valpo has German heritage, we should called the Pilsners.

That would give Valpo Czech heritage.

Quote from: valpo tundra on July 21, 2020, 11:06:22 PM
That would give Valpo Czech heritage.

The Lubos?

Barton should Czech that out!  ;-)

Valpo Deutsch>

Valpo Fighting Germans?

Valpo Brauer?    It's German for Brewers and honors the Art Museum and it's namesake Richard Brauer.

Valpo Myths?

Valpo Victors?

Valpo Flying V's?

I support going back to the Uhlans.  We still get a unique mascot, and those of us with Northern European ancestry, are not going to feel offended at being represented as a mascot :)

On a serious note, I concur with a prior post that all view points should be heard in a fair way.  Neither side should shout down the othcr without listening.  Would the BoR hear both sides of the question from VU students?..is it really an urgent topic? 

Would faculty or student groups allow a reasoned debate of the topic by students and/or alumni in front of the alumni?  Would they allow even and full debate of any sensitive cultural issues and factual historiy without the woke crowd impugning any opposing debaters as "-ist" or "--phobic" ?

How about "The Valpo University Athletics Teams"

I think in response to the Washington Football Team Valpo should go with Goldepiderms. Or Brownhides.

I am fine with a new nickname or no nickname - I am not fine with a large operating deficit and a drop in excellence at Valpo. Many smaller universities are really hurting right now.

How about the Valparaiso Spartans? ;)

Quote from: valpospartan on July 24, 2020, 05:13:20 PM
How about the Valparaiso Spartans? ;)

Must be unique. We might as well call ourselves the Bulldogs. Why Spartans (Michigan State, Izzo, confusion for Brandon Wood, are we now Greek?)

Valpo Virus? Maybe not.

With Spartans you are still in the realm of aggressive Europeans.   That's a no no.  Have MSU faculty risen up to protest?  Maybe so.

Sounds like the safe bet is to become the "Cardinal" and have a pine tree for a mascot. 

The time to start seriously considering a new nickname and mascot for Valpo sports might have arrived. Despite the large cost, apparent divisiveness, and possible alienation of a number of alums, including generous donors, the Faculty Senate unanimously passed a resolution today "that the Crusader mascot immediately be dropped." This seems to be a priority with faculty senators and the Student Senate will follow with a similar resolution shortly. The university's Interim President, who seems sympathetic to the proposal, reported the Board of Directors has established a task force to examine the issue, and a decision will be made by the end of the year. She declared she would like the issue resolved while she is still in her position.

The Valparaiso Monks! Or Fighting Monks. Whichever. We are after all the nations second largest Lutheran institution. And being The Monks would fit very well with our current team colors (monks robes are brown). Students will probably get a kick out of wearing monks robes to games in order to support our teams, too. So lets honor Martin Luther and our schools Lutheran heritage by choosing The Monks.  :)

Quote from: bbtds on July 25, 2020, 10:52:54 AM

Quote from: valpospartan on July 24, 2020, 05:13:20 PM
How about the Valparaiso Spartans? ;)

Must be unique. We might as well call ourselves the Bulldogs. Why Spartans (Michigan State, Izzo, confusion for Brandon Wood, are we now Greek?)

Valpo Virus? Maybe not.

:rotfl:  Kidding!  :lol:

So the faculty during a time of an 11% budget deficit has written a resolution to the Board asking to drop the mascot?

God love 'em.   

They should try working a 12-month per year job with accountability and then come back and tell us that this is a priority for them.  It's good to be woke, but it's better to be paid.

This topic should be the least of the Faculty's worries.  It always amazes me that some people in academia think they know everything about everything.  I do agree that our Crusader mascot is probably one of the ugliest mascots around.  OK, drop the mascot but keep the "Crusader" name.

Quote from: crusadermoe on September 17, 2020, 03:02:24 PM
So the faculty during a time of an 11% budget deficit has written a resolution to the Board asking to drop the mascot?

God love 'em.   

They should try working a 12-month per year job with accountability and then come back and tell us that this is a priority for them.  It's good to be woke, but it's better to be paid.

While I am not very fond of the Crusader, I reiterate what I said previously that there are far more important issues to address.

However, I have to take exception to the comment about professors not working a 12-month per year job. There are some in which that statement is true, but many do research over the entire summer to maintain their publication productivity. If you are tenure track (but not yet tenured), that is absolutely essential (or you end up being fired). If you are tenured, you should be doing research or teaching in the summer (though admittedly there are some who do not). Also, tenured faculty who do not publish research are required to teach more classes with no extra pay.

Quote from: valpo64 on September 17, 2020, 03:29:41 PMThis topic should be the least of the Faculty's worries.  It always amazes me that some people in academia think they know everything about everything.  I do agree that our Crusader mascot is probably one of the ugliest mascots around.  OK, drop the mascot but keep the "Crusader" name.

I ask this question with all the respect in the world...but what should the faculty's worries be right now? Meaning, do you think there is brain power not being used because some people are caring about this?

Unrelated, yet at the same time, 100 percent related, I read a critique of the Indianapolis Colts last week. Frank Reich knelt before the game and then the Colts lost. The comment was "Maybe if Coach Reich spent less time kneeling and more time working on his game plan, the Colts wouldn't have lost." Um, the Colts lost because Philip Rivers throws interceptions, not because Frank Reich knelt before the game.

I've seen people say "the faculty should be worried about other things instead of a silly mascot." As a faculty member, what am I supposed to worry about that I'm not already worrying about? (Most faculty members are smart enough to worry about multiple things at once)

What about "The Beach"

Quote from: Pgmado on September 18, 2020, 12:27:28 AM

Quote from: valpo64 on September 17, 2020, 03:29:41 PMThis topic should be the least of the Faculty's worries.  It always amazes me that some people in academia think they know everything about everything.  I do agree that our Crusader mascot is probably one of the ugliest mascots around.  OK, drop the mascot but keep the "Crusader" name.

I ask this question with all the respect in the world...but what should the faculty's worries be right now? Meaning, do you think there is brain power not being used because some people are caring about this?

Unrelated, yet at the same time, 100 percent related, I read a critique of the Indianapolis Colts last week. Frank Reich knelt before the game and then the Colts lost. The comment was "Maybe if Coach Reich spent less time kneeling and more time working on his game plan, the Colts wouldn't have lost." Um, the Colts lost because Philip Rivers throws interceptions, not because Frank Reich knelt before the game.

I've seen people say "the faculty should be worried about other things instead of a silly mascot." As a faculty member, what am I supposed to worry about that I'm not already worrying about? (Most faculty members are smart enough to worry about multiple things at once)

You seem to be responding to these as literal statements, while I view both the comment about the faculty and the one about the football coach more as sarcasm, a clever form of verbal irony.

As a faculty member you chould be worrying about whether you are playing a full role in the admissions process so that enrollment and revenue is maximized.  If you do that, congratulations!!

Once that's done then it seems only natural that a faculty member would turn his/her efforts to the next logical task, reversing the enrollment work by splintering your identity and sewing alumni dissension as rapidly as possible during a vulnerable time for all universities. 

Any thoughts on other faculty roles that could be more productive than mascot provocations? 

I do not look at the mascot issue as an issue of available faculty time as much as a potential negative visibility issue at a vulnerable time. Regardless of your position on this, consider what happens if Valpo announces a mascot name change. The announcement certainly appears on ESPN's website....which is not likely to be that big of a deal. However, what happens if a media outlet on either side of the political spectrum decides to make a story out of this? Students and faculty on both sides of the issue are shown in a manner that draws eyeballs to the media outlet, which may portray a false narrative about Valpo (e.g., there are massive protests at the university, students/faculty viciously disagree with each other). This negative portrayal of the university, regardless of your position, dissuades prospective students from considering the university...in which case everyone loses (see the University of Missouri for an example).

When discussions about team name/mascots come up, it seems to me the only people who benefit from these controversies are the ones looking for a change to satisfy some kind of ego thing.  If people are offended it is their fault.  Some people get their jollies on some of these social change issues and in most cases it appears that they are the only ones that get a kick out of a change.  I wonder who has complained about our "Crusader"?   I believe the only thing team names and mascots are good for are athletic team identities...nothing more.  I guess some people like to make mountains out of ant hills and tout what a '"do-gooder" they are.  So be it.  To me these type of changes are not worth the time, money, or effort that are put into it.  In fact, it's getting kind of old.  There have to be much more important things in life than worrying about what a team's nickname or mascot is.  GO CRUSADERS!

If you're going to discuss Valpo's branding/logos, I'd be more interested in ditching the bathroom colors than the mascot or nickname.

Quote from: vu84v2 on September 22, 2020, 12:49:26 PM
I do not look at the mascot issue as an issue of available faculty time as much as a potential negative visibility issue at a vulnerable time. Regardless of your position on this, consider what happens if Valpo announces a mascot name change. The announcement certainly appears on ESPN's website....which is not likely to be that big of a deal. However, what happens if a media outlet on either side of the political spectrum decides to make a story out of this? Students and faculty on both sides of the issue are shown in a manner that draws eyeballs to the media outlet, which may portray a false narrative about Valpo (e.g., there are massive protests at the university, students/faculty viciously disagree with each other). This negative portrayal of the university, regardless of your position, dissuades prospective students from considering the university...in which case everyone loses (see the University of Missouri for an example).

And those in favor of the change will weaponize the current climate and situation to get what they want when perhaps they should be looking at the positive side of the word crusade or crusader. This excerpt about Rosalind Franklin, "the forgotten heroine of the race to unravel the mystery of human DNA is to be honored posthumously as part of a Government crusade against sexism in science". More recently the media seems to think the word crusader is perfectly fine when it describes the exploits of the notorious RGB.  "Justice Ginsburg was a real-life superhero: a beacon of hope, a warrior for justice, a robed crusader who saved the day time and again".

The "b" definition in Merriam-Webster actually states the following:
b: a person who makes an impassioned and sustained effort to bring about social or political change
human rights crusaders
an anti-government crusader
Black women lawyers early on were in the forefront of the civil rights struggle. Many women attorneys were crusaders for the poor and needy ...

After my interaction with the Student Senate President this summer, I would think they could really get behind our mascot based upon the above definition.   :angel:

The dictionary also says that the first known use of the word was in 1742, so this was not a word actually used at the time of what we now call the crusades.

Have others received an email from the university sent to the Valpo community with a survey to complete about calls for removing the Crusader mascot and nickname? The survey certainly exhibits a lack of objectivity or neutrality. Given the introduction to the survey and the wording or options in some of the questions, it clearly appears the intent is to dispose of the Crusader. For example, one question asks if you consider yourself "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader"; however, you cannot be both. In fact, the subtly persuasive phrase "disposition of the Valpo mascot" is included as a goal in the survey preface. None of the questions or any parts of the introduction make respondents aware of the large cost or practical complications such a change would involve at this time of financial difficulty for the university. Such information could be useful for those supplying answers. The survey preface also uses wording that seemingly seeks to influence respondents by implying anyone who does not wish to cancel the Crusader likewise does not desire to be welcoming of all:

"Throughout the country, there has been much discussion about the appropriateness of various building names, statues, and mascots. Likewise, various Valparaiso University constituencies have raised concerns about the Crusader being Valpo's mascot, given its frequent association with the Crusades and our desire to be welcoming to people of all faiths and backgrounds."

I also received the survey. I just thought that it was a poorly written survey. I don't disagree with any of your examples, but on the other hand there was a question that asked something like "what do you think of when you think of the Crusader?" Five answers were, in varying ways, positive and one was very negative. Questions like this skew the responses away from the negative, since most anyone could answer positive to one of them.

To anyone completing the survey, I would encourage you to write your comments to clearly articulate your position. I am not a fan of the Crusader mascot/nickname, but I also feel that this is not right time to push such a divisive issue.

I received the email and filled out the survey. The tone was not lost on me, but I did get the sense that the survey was meant to be more of a "what are your perceptions of the nickname" rather than "should we change the nickname" (though that may be some folks' intent). Hence the lack of questions pertaining to cost, alumni donations, etc.

Personally, I will be candid about this: "Crusaders" is the only nickname for VU I plan to ever recognize. I understand and appreciate VU's inclination to be inclusive of folks of all religions. I graduated not-too-long ago with some classmates in my major who were of the Islamic faith. They are good people, and if they had a problem with the nickname, the never vocalized it. The anti-"Crusaders" sentiment seems, at least to me, to be a vocal minority speaking up "on behalf" of others, and frankly I don't think that that should be how big decisions on such matters are made. If VU wants to make an effort to be more inclusive of Islamic students, I'd suggest supporting student Islamic student organizations, offering courses on the Islamic faith, etc. There are options here that are more practical than changing the nickname and will make a bigger difference to the day-to-day lives of actual students at the university. In my mind, the nickname is not really all that different than having Lutheran chapel services on campus, serving bacon at the Union, etc.; an element of university life that will not serve all religions, but that's okay because it isn't forced on anyone. No one is making students buy Crusaders apparel or identify with the nickname any more than Notre Dame students are forced to identify as Irish (which most of them are not), or Northwestern students as Wildcats (none of them, at least to my knowledge, are actual wildcats).

If we are concerned about perceptions, as FWalum mentioned, I guess I wouldn't mind rebranding "Crusaders" to its so-called "second definition": "We are Crusaders for truth", "Crusaders for knowledge", "Crusaders for justice", etc. And if that means doing away with the mascot and rebranding the logo a bit to mollify the PC crowd, I guess I'd be willing to make that sacrifice.

Money, as has been mentioned, is another big issue here. Rebrands are expensive, and the more we change, the more money it's going to cost, and the University isn't exactly overflowing in cash right now. And I wonder how many deep-pocketed alumni are fond of the nickname...

Quote from: vu84v2 on January 12, 2021, 10:29:56 PM
I also received the survey. I just thought that it was a poorly written survey. I don't disagree with any of your examples, but on the other hand there was a question that asked something like "what do you think of when you think of the Crusader?" Five answers were, in varying ways, positive and one was very negative. Questions like this skew the responses away from the negative, since most anyone could answer positive to one of them.

To anyone completing the survey, I would encourage you to write your comments to clearly articulate your position. I am not a fan of the Crusader mascot/nickname, but I also feel that this is not right time to push such a divisive issue.

I saw the multiple answer question differently. By asking a question with five possible positive answers and one negative, the positives are spread and their impact watered down, allowing the negative to stand out as the answer achieving the highest number of responses, a common tactic, a form of push polling. It is similar to a situation where more than one candidate from the same team is up for an award and they split the votes permitting another to win. In any case, open-mail surveys are poor choices as tools for making a decision, since the body of respondents are self-selecting and the results are skewed to activist constituencies that coordinate a mass response, as the Coalition to Retire the Crusader is currently doing at their Facebook page with their organized campaign to flood the university with hundreds of similar survey responses opposing the Crusader mascot.


The university has been phasing out the Crusader for years now, and the Faculty Senate voted unanimously in the fall to remove the Crusader mascot. Aware of the organized response from the coalition above, the university is hoping to use the results of this survey as a final move forward toward eventual elimination of the Crusader. I am told the current administration plan is to announce an action next month.

Here is what I said in the "comments" section of the survey:

There isn't enough space to tell you how I feel.  This is just another example of the toxic political correctness/woke culture that has infested (and is ruining) our society.  Apparently the relatively small faction of perpetually-offended faculty and students has determined that, after nearly 80 years, the Crusader mascot should go.  I suppose I should join the ranks of those who meekly submit to these demands. These folks are, after all, more enlightened, noble, and moral than the generations that have preceded them.  I very much doubt the University will resist this movement.  It is a safe bet that VU will join the ever-growing number of institutions of higher education that cave in to these silly demands.  Do so at your own peril - the clamor for change made by the progressive left will not stop at the mascot. Universities always preach being courageous, bold, charting your own path, think for yourself, etc., but when it comes to resisting these bullies, administrations fold like a cheap suitcase.  Your "survey" was, in my view, deliberately worded to achieve a preordained result - getting rid of the mascot - and is simply an exercise that can provide the current administration with cover once it decides to change the name ("look, 73% of respondents identify more as a "Valpo person" than "a Crusader").  VU can now join Wheaton College, who several years ago got rid of their Crusader nickname, going with the bland but PC name of "the Thunder."  I don't look forward to the new name, which will be equally nondescriptive and accomplish nothing but diminish the already-scarce amount of tradition left at VU.  Paul Thune, Class of 1978

new nickname idea:

Valparaiso Essex Heroes (some will know that Admiral David Porter sacrificed his crew on the warship Essex for glory off the coast of Valparaiso, Chile)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Valpara%C3%ADso

This gets pretty silly to be sure.  Some schools, like Stanford, abandoned their "Indians" for a color--Cardinal.  Likewise, Harvard uses "Crimson" as their mascot, or in both cases, the lack hereof.  In Valpo's case perhaps we change everything and drop the mascot and change to Violet as our "color"  The Violet now take the floor.  Very intimidating don't you think?

78Crusader speaks for me and does it very passionately and articulately.   

I think the "Wokeness" movement is overplaying its hand badly under the protection of national Trump fatigue.  It might face a boomerang in the 2022 election.  Higher education should probably hit the pause button on leading that movement during its existential collision with COVID. 

 

Quote from: valpopal on January 13, 2021, 09:54:47 AM

Quote from: vu84v2 on January 12, 2021, 10:29:56 PM
I also received the survey. I just thought that it was a poorly written survey. I don't disagree with any of your examples, but on the other hand there was a question that asked something like "what do you think of when you think of the Crusader?" Five answers were, in varying ways, positive and one was very negative. Questions like this skew the responses away from the negative, since most anyone could answer positive to one of them.

To anyone completing the survey, I would encourage you to write your comments to clearly articulate your position. I am not a fan of the Crusader mascot/nickname, but I also feel that this is not right time to push such a divisive issue.

I saw the multiple answer question differently. By asking a question with five possible positive answers and one negative, the positives are spread and their impact watered down, allowing the negative to stand out as the answer achieving the highest number of responses, a common tactic, a form of push polling. It is similar to a situation where more than one candidate from the same team is up for an award and they split the votes permitting another to win. In any case, open-mail surveys are poor choices as tools for making a decision, since the body of respondents are self-selecting and the results are skewed to activist constituencies that coordinate a mass response, as the Coalition to Retire the Crusader is currently doing at their Facebook page with their organized campaign to flood the university with hundreds of similar survey responses opposing the Crusader mascot.

I see your point regarding how you view the multiple answer question. We probably agree that it is ultimately a matter of how it is presented. My view was that you could end up with the negative answer having a majority, but only 30%. Thus, you could also say "only 30% of the people agreed with the negative position." Good points about open-mail surveys as it allows for organized responses to outweigh opinions from all constituencies.

The Board's action on this subject is ridiculous.  Run the University and forget about the "do gooders" who want to change everything.  What a joke!  What a waste of time as far as I am concerned.  As was mentioned on a previous post, with all the financial troubles we are having (along with many other schools), it amazes me that they even waste the time to even talk about changing the mascot/name, whatever.  I am very unimpressed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The clear new nickname comes from the Heartland Poet, the Seymour Shuffle King, John Mellencamp -- Call them The Beige

Beige to Beige
John Mellencamp

No songs on the stereo
That we could sing with anymore.
No dance that I can do
That would not embarrass you.
A sound bite here and there
With no reason for me to care.

It's just beige to beige,
That's all it is these days,
Little windows for you to crawl through.
You just do what's expected of you.
It's just beige to beige to beige
these days.

Uniforms for this and that,
To be in our club you must wear this hat.
Charlie's gonna look out for you,
You just do what you're supposed to do.
You're gonna fit in here
Just like you should.
Learn the rules and learn them good.

It's just beige to beige,
That's all it is these days,
Little windows for you to crawl through.
You just do what's expected of you.
It's just beige to beige to beige
These days.

If you need a thought
We'll give it to you.
Our statistics show what we do is true.
A world without color
Is a world without sound,
A world to keep the rabble down.
So close the deal, close the door.
Forget about the colors that you knew before.

It's just beige to beige,
That's all it is these days, yeah,
Little windows for you to crawl through.
And Charlie gonna take care of you.
It's just beige to beige to beige
These days.

The mascot debate would do more harm than good.  It is as if they are removing everything we have known as a university.  And I am one who thinks "woke" culture often times is too overblown.  But just look at the ND programming recently - they have commercials where they are "Fighting for Justice" and "Fighting for (fill in the blank)".  Valpo could do the same thing "We are Valpo and we are crusaders for peace."  I can understand why they got rid of the former cartoon mascot.  But the current mascot is so godawful and frankly the shield was a positive logo update.  I could be ok transitioning away from the actual mascot, but keep the name and logo. 

As I've said in the past, I am not a fan of a mascot change, but if we do have such a thing, the Uhlans ties back to the university's history, and shouldn't offend.  It is also not a complete wuss nickname, like the folks behind this survey, would probably opt.

Quote from: vu72 on January 13, 2021, 12:49:33 PM
This gets pretty silly to be sure.  Some schools, like Stanford, abandoned their "Indians" for a color--Cardinal.  Likewise, Harvard uses "Crimson" as their mascot, or in both cases, the lack hereof.  In Valpo's case perhaps we change everything and drop the mascot and change to Violet as our "color"  The Violet now take the floor.  Very intimidating don't you think?

Not all universities that use a color did so to avoid any offensive inference from their name:
-Harvard has only been the Crimson.
-Cornell has only been the Big Red.
-University of Chicago selected Maroons because that was the color of their second generation of football jerseys. The first was yellow, but that was rejected because (according to Amos Alonso Stagg) "The yellow ran, soiled easily, and had a regrettable symbolism which our opponents might not be above commenting upon."

Interestingly, Dartmouth more or less did change its name. They were (somewhat unofficially) the Indians until the 70s, when it changed to (officially) the "Big Green". Students responded that this was too amorphous and created an alternative mascot, Keggy the Keg. Student government approved Keggy, but the university refused to allow Keggy into sporting events and the concept (and costume) disappeared. [For those of you that do not understand the reference, the source material for Animal House was fraternities at Dartmouth and Washington (MO) universities]

Stanford is "The Cardinal."  (as in "rule," not the bird(s) mind you.)   Their mascot is a tree.    :o    Now that stirs the soul.   :(

We could be "Carbon Fighters?  ...Tree Huggers?,  Instead of a tree (it's taken), our mascot could be big black lump of coal with a red diagonal line across it.

As a point of order it was a "Wokeness" movement that lead to the Crusader nickname.

I like the Stanford tree being portrayed as an ani mascot.
I would rather see Valpo focus on improving athletic programs, particularly basketball, than spending energy and money on a mascot debate. Who cares when our athletic programs are below average?

Interim President Irwin-Knott has announced that the Crusader mascot will be "retired." What a load of BS.

Paul

Quote from: 78crusader on February 11, 2021, 10:19:00 AM
Interim President Irwin-Knott has announced that the Crusader mascot will be "retired." What a load of BS.

Paul

Tail wags the dog:

A small entity (the tail) controls a bigger, more important one (the dog).

Message from a regular feeder of the dog:

You made a large mistake.

The mascot was a pretty sorry looking Crusader anyways.

Well you knew this was coming. I'd like to know who the members were on the review committee, the report that was generated, and the results of the survey.

It's interesting that they mentioned that the KKK have a newspaper called "the Crusader" as justification for changing the name. When I Google "the Crusader" newspaper, the first result is actually an African-American newspaper out of Chicago.

Glad they spent all that time and money 10 years ago to create the trash can head Crusader. Clearly another smart financial move by Heckler. 

She said the University was concerned about their "Lutheran Ethos"...which is curious because they just hired a President who is Catholic.

Unfortunately, this means that I will probably stop giving to the university going forward.  No final decision, but in the near future, I am not happy with this move, and won't give my usual February donation with company match.  Especially including the far left Student Body President, as if it is some type of huge win for her, it does not align with my viewpoints.  I do not support the over sensationalism that this 'woke' culture is giving to words that really have no contentious meaning.  Just because one hate group has been utilizing a word, doesn't mean that we should immediately react, and let them own that word.  As others have said, you can be a Crusader for justice, or various other positive aspects.  Very disappointing.

I, on the other hand, favored the change. In terms of process, the deliberations went through both the faculty and student governance bodies, and it appears that all stakeholder opinions were taken into account. In terms of substance, I think we can do better in light of concerns expressed.

Had the decision gone the other way, I would've been unhappy but not deeply angry about it. I have become a regular donor to VU in recent years, including a pledge and bequest to fund a modest scholarship as part of the Forever Valpo campaign, and that commitment would've remained intact regardless. I hope that folks won't yank their support for the University and its students because the mascot is being renamed.

Hopefully the new team name will resonate and have some pep in its step. And hopefully that will be joined by some great seasons from the VU basketball and football teams, among others.

As mentioned on the other thread, it isn't just about renaming the mascot.  It is the public demonstration of political leaning, based on the messaging that went along with the announcement. 

Why not keep the name Crusaders, and retire the mascot? Follow the lead of another institution, the College of the Holy Cross, which has successfully navigated these same waters by choosing to accept their own definition of what it means to be a "Crusader" and not accept definitions of the past and/or ones dictated by outside "hate groups" which do not represent Valpo and its many stakeholders. See the post below copied from the Holy Cross website.

From: Rev. Philip L. Boroughs, S.J., President of the College
To: Alumni, Students, Faculty and Staff
March 14, 2018

Dear Members of the College Community,

Several weeks ago, our Board of Trustees completed a period of discussion and discernment and, based on thoughtful input from many of you, chose to reaffirm our identity as Crusaders. But our work was not done. At the same time, the Board tasked our administration with assessing all visual representations of the Crusader, to ensure they align with our definition of what it means to be a Holy Cross Crusader. That definition is based on a contemporary understanding of the term, which suggests a noble effort to support a cause, to right a wrong or to make a difference.

As we discussed as a community the appropriateness of our use of the Crusader moniker and mascot, several themes emerged. We are Holy Cross Crusaders for:

The importance of the intellectual life, critical thinking and reflective learning.
The Jesuit and Catholic intellectual and spiritual traditions.
The dialogue between faith and reason.
The common good, human rights, social justice and care for the environment.
Human life.
Interreligious understanding and dialogue.
Inclusivity and respect for different cultures, perspectives and identities.
Honesty, equality, fairness and freedom of speech.
Health of mind, body and spirit.

Since the founding of the College, our students, faculty, staff, and alumni have embodied these ideals. Our students spend their spring breaks working with the poor and marginalized in Haiti, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Appalachia and recent grads generously join the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, Teach for America and the Peace Corps. Our alumni become teachers, doctors, researchers, government officials, religious and priests, and advocates for the transformation of society through education, social service and business. These are just a few examples of what it means to be a Crusader today.

Upon reflection on this contemporary definition, it is clear that our current visual representations of the Crusader do not align with this understanding. For some, knight imagery alone could convey nobility, chivalry and bravery. However, the visual depiction of a knight, in conjunction with the moniker Crusader, inevitably ties us directly to the reality of the religious wars and the violence of the Crusades. This imagery stands in contrast to our stated values.

Over the coming months, the College will gradually phase out the use of all knight-related imagery. Moving forward, the College will use the interlocking HC on a purple shield, currently the secondary athletics logo, as the primary marker for all athletic teams, uniforms and advertising. This also means we will retire our costumed mascot. I understand these decisions will be a disappointment to some of you but I trust our community's support for Holy Cross and for our athletic teams will continue unwaveringly.

I want to thank all of you who have participated in this discussion about our identity. These conversations aren't easy, but they are necessary. I am hopeful we have emerged with an even stronger sense of who we are and what we stand for, and that you all remain as proud as I am to be a part of the Holy Cross community.

Sincerely,

Rev. Philip L. Boroughs, S.J.
President

Quote from: Valpo2022 on February 12, 2021, 07:25:41 AM
Why not keep the name Crusaders, and retire the mascot? Follow the lead of another institution, the College of the Holy Cross, which has successfully navigated these same waters by choosing to accept their own definition of what it means to be a "Crusader" and not accept definitions of the past and/or ones dictated by outside "hate groups" which do not represent Valpo and its many stakeholders. See the post below copied from the Holy Cross website.

I think that would've been a reasonable explanation as well, but practically speaking, retiring the imagery while retaining the name makes for an odd marketing dilemma. What do you put on those t-shirts and hoodies!? Plus, I think VU's decision was more honest, making a call -- as a Christian university -- on whether a symbol associated with it was historically problematic.

As an alum, I did not consider myself a, ummmmm, crusader on this issue. (Yup, I've used the term plenty of times in that context!) But I think it was a courageous decision on a modest yet meaningful matter, knowing there would be blowback and criticism.

FWIW, I don't think this will negatively affect student recruiting, the school's overall standing, and various metrics used to evaluate universities. I see it as a bit of a correction by a Christian university that also wants to be more associated with values of inclusion. VU's core values and "brand" remain, shields & armor or not.

Quote from: valpopal on January 12, 2021, 06:33:18 PM
Have others received an email from the university sent to the Valpo community with a survey to complete about calls for removing the Crusader mascot and nickname? The survey certainly exhibits a lack of objectivity or neutrality. Given the introduction to the survey and the wording or options in some of the questions, it clearly appears the intent is to dispose of the Crusader. For example, one question asks if you consider yourself "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader"; however, you cannot be both.

As noted at the time of the survey, it was deceptively designed to obtain a specific end, forcing respondents to choose between "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader," but not allowing both. Apparently, the Chicago Tribune has seen some results of the survey, and the leaked information is that the push poll questions got the results VU wanted: "Neither the email nor a university press release on the decision discloses whether the task force produced a report on its findings and recommendations, or whether Valparaiso will publish the 7,700 survey responses in some form. Its website does not bring up such materials in a search for 'crusader task force.' The Chicago Tribune has apparently seen at least some survey results, reporting that more than 80 percent of responses 'identified Valparaiso as the university's dominant brand,' with the Crusader drawing only 2.5 percent." https://www.thecollegefix.com/christian-university-ditches-crusader-mascot-because-of-association-with-hate-groups/ (https://www.thecollegefix.com/christian-university-ditches-crusader-mascot-because-of-association-with-hate-groups/)

Quote from: valpopal on February 12, 2021, 09:41:40 AM

Quote from: valpopal on January 12, 2021, 06:33:18 PM
Have others received an email from the university sent to the Valpo community with a survey to complete about calls for removing the Crusader mascot and nickname? The survey certainly exhibits a lack of objectivity or neutrality. Given the introduction to the survey and the wording or options in some of the questions, it clearly appears the intent is to dispose of the Crusader. For example, one question asks if you consider yourself "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader"; however, you cannot be both.

As noted at the time of the survey, it was deceptively designed to obtain a specific end, forcing respondents to choose between "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader," but not allowing both. Apparently, the Chicago Tribune has seen some results of the survey, and the leaked information is that the push poll questions got the results VU wanted: "Neither the email nor a university press release on the decision discloses whether the task force produced a report on its findings and recommendations, or whether Valparaiso will publish the 7,700 survey responses in some form. Its website does not bring up such materials in a search for 'crusader task force.' The Chicago Tribune has apparently seen at least some survey results, reporting that more than 80 percent of responses 'identified Valparaiso as the university's dominant brand,' with the Crusader drawing only 2.5 percent." https://www.thecollegefix.com/christian-university-ditches-crusader-mascot-because-of-association-with-hate-groups/ (https://www.thecollegefix.com/christian-university-ditches-crusader-mascot-because-of-association-with-hate-groups/)

I agree that the survey choices could have offered multiple ticks. I've seen no shortage of surveys like this in higher ed, that appear to be prompting a result. It's a fair criticism.

That said: (1) the student and alumni/ae attachment to the Crusader mascot is not very strong, not even remotely like -- say -- the Fighting Irish. I have several pieces of Valpo gear, and the key visuals are the school colors and the Valpo name. (2) I'd guess that most sports fans familiar with Valpo identify us with "Valpo" and little else. Many can't even spell Valparaiso. And hardly anyone is going to hear "Valpo" and think "oh, the Crusaders."

Quote from: valpopal on February 12, 2021, 09:41:40 AM

Quote from: valpopal on January 12, 2021, 06:33:18 PM
Have others received an email from the university sent to the Valpo community with a survey to complete about calls for removing the Crusader mascot and nickname? The survey certainly exhibits a lack of objectivity or neutrality. Given the introduction to the survey and the wording or options in some of the questions, it clearly appears the intent is to dispose of the Crusader. For example, one question asks if you consider yourself "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader"; however, you cannot be both.

As noted at the time of the survey, it was deceptively designed to obtain a specific end, forcing respondents to choose between "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader," but not allowing both. Apparently, the Chicago Tribune has seen some results of the survey, and the leaked information is that the push poll questions got the results VU wanted: "Neither the email nor a university press release on the decision discloses whether the task force produced a report on its findings and recommendations, or whether Valparaiso will publish the 7,700 survey responses in some form. Its website does not bring up such materials in a search for 'crusader task force.' The Chicago Tribune has apparently seen at least some survey results, reporting that more than 80 percent of responses 'identified Valparaiso as the university's dominant brand,' with the Crusader drawing only 2.5 percent." https://www.thecollegefix.com/christian-university-ditches-crusader-mascot-because-of-association-with-hate-groups/ (https://www.thecollegefix.com/christian-university-ditches-crusader-mascot-because-of-association-with-hate-groups/)

Agree completely.  When given only two choices, the vast majority of folks would say that they identify with the actual name of their school.  If it had been worded as whether alumni would support a mascot change due to societal pressures, that is a completely different survey question.

I can live with a different mascot or just having none.  It's not a deal breaker for me.

Like so many others, I only find this mascot issue's timing irritating because it comes in the context of much more bigger problems of finance. And of course it emphasizes the long relentless desire to blend into the ldense forrest of declining liberal arts colleges. 

Perhaps the mascot name change is a cleverly timed "shiny object" to release publicly while the disastrous financial mess is being addressed. If so, it's pretty shrewd, but I'm not taking the bait. The central strategic issue is enrollment. Is an enhanced statement of wokeness a path to enrollment increases? Maybe. Not sure.

Enrollment increase because of the name change?  Are you serious?

Quote from: crusadermoe on February 12, 2021, 01:23:31 PM
I can live with a different mascot or just having none.  It's not a deal breaker for me.

Like so many others, I only find this mascot issue's timing irritating because it comes in the context of much more bigger problems of finance. And of course it emphasizes the long relentless desire to blend into the ldense forrest of declining liberal arts colleges. 

Perhaps the mascot name change is a cleverly timed "shiny object" to release publicly while the disastrous financial mess is being addressed. If so, it's pretty shrewd, but I'm not taking the bait. The central strategic issue is enrollment. Is an enhanced statement of wokeness a path to enrollment increases? Maybe. Not sure.

I'd be surprised if there was any clever strategic objective. For a school like VU, which must play to so many stakeholders spanning the religious, social, and political spectrum, while holding true to a faith identity and core constituency with moderate-to-conservative optics, this was something of a no-win dilemma. In fact, I give Interim President Irwin-Knott a lot of credit for taking one for the team, making a call on this now, rather than tossing it on the lap of incoming President Padilla.

For those who are angered by this decision as evidencing an institutional embrace of a left-leaning spirit of wokeness and political correctness, I'd ask that you pan the camera back and look at the U.S. higher ed landscape. Valpo is not an Oberlin, Grinnell, Macalester, or Wisconsin-Madison. The name change will not suddenly unleash a cadre of left-leaning high school seniors applying to VU and overwhelming the entering class. Against this broader higher ed canvas, Valpo remains a pretty traditional place. No one who shows up for a campus visit and sees the Chapel of the Resurrection is going to think otherwise.

But I respectfully submit that, for a long time, VU has had hard work to do to become a more inclusive place in image and in substance. I think it has made enormous progress on that since my days there (1977-81), and I am appreciative of the mascot change as a modest sign of that. In order to survive and thrive, VU has to walk a tightrope of embracing its Lutheran and more conservative core, while making more room for those of other beliefs and lifestyles. As a person of color (Asian American) and holder of old fashioned liberal politics, I do not expect nor ask VU to turn into a Macalester or a Madison. But a more inclusive version of Valpo is good for everyone.

Quote from: David81 on February 13, 2021, 12:27:32 PM

Quote from: crusadermoe on February 12, 2021, 01:23:31 PM
I can live with a different mascot or just having none.  It's not a deal breaker for me.

Like so many others, I only find this mascot issue's timing irritating because it comes in the context of much more bigger problems of finance. And of course it emphasizes the long relentless desire to blend into the ldense forrest of declining liberal arts colleges. 

Perhaps the mascot name change is a cleverly timed "shiny object" to release publicly while the disastrous financial mess is being addressed. If so, it's pretty shrewd, but I'm not taking the bait. The central strategic issue is enrollment. Is an enhanced statement of wokeness a path to enrollment increases? Maybe. Not sure.

I'd be surprised if there was any clever strategic objective. For a school like VU, which must play to so many stakeholders spanning the religious, social, and political spectrum, while holding true to a faith identity and core constituency with moderate-to-conservative optics, this was something of a no-win dilemma. In fact, I give Interim President Irwin-Knott a lot of credit for taking one for the team, making a call on this now, rather than tossing it on the lap of incoming President Padilla.

For those who are angered by this decision as evidencing an institutional embrace of a left-leaning spirit of wokeness and political correctness, I'd ask that you pan the camera back and look at the U.S. higher ed landscape. Valpo is not an Oberlin, Grinnell, Macalester, or Wisconsin-Madison. The name change will not suddenly unleash a cadre of left-leaning high school seniors applying to VU and overwhelming the entering class. Against this broader higher ed canvas, Valpo remains a pretty traditional place. No one who shows up for a campus visit and sees the Chapel of the Resurrection is going to think otherwise.

But I respectfully submit that, for a long time, VU has had hard work to do to become a more inclusive place in image and in substance. I think it has made enormous progress on that since my days there (1977-81), and I am appreciative of the mascot change as a modest sign of that. In order to survive and thrive, VU has to walk a tightrope of embracing its Lutheran and more conservative core, while making more room for those of other beliefs and lifestyles. As a person of color (Asian American) and holder of old fashioned liberal politics, I do not expect nor ask VU to turn into a Macalester or a Madison. But a more inclusive version of Valpo is good for everyone.

Can you not see that giving video time to a very much far left/political activist Student Body President, would give the optics to those of us in the moderate-to-conservative crowd, that the university is publicly taking a more leftist approach going forward?  The current Student Body President is inconsequential when it comes to such a decision that affects such a long history of Valpo alumni, regardless of who that individual might have been.  If they just wanted to confirm student support, it could have been a simple sentence in the news announcement that the SBP is supportive of this change, versus providing a leftist platform that the term 'Crusader' is offensive, etc.  Instead, they gave prominent air time to someone that publicly doxed a fellow student last year, just for liking a Facebook/Twitter post that called BLM a terrorist organization, and determined on her own that was a racist thing for that named individual to 'like.'  You correctly pointed out that Valpo has traditionally been a moderate-to-conservative university in alumni/the public's eyes.  As I've said, I will continue to watch the news pushed out by the new Valpo administration, to see if it matches a Loyola (IL), Oberlin, etc.  You need to keep in mind that I am a moderate conservative nowadays, who is married to a Liberal, so the even more conservative alumni are even more upset by this stance. 

Quote from: valpotx on February 13, 2021, 01:47:09 PM
Can you not see that giving video time to a very much far left/political activist Student Body President, would give the optics to those of us in the moderate-to-conservative crowd, that the university is publicly taking a more leftist approach going forward?  The current Student Body President is inconsequential when it comes to such a decision that affects such a long history of Valpo alumni, regardless of who that individual might have been.  If they just wanted to confirm student support, it could have been a simple sentence in the news announcement that the SBP is supportive of this change, versus providing a leftist platform that the term 'Crusader' is offensive, etc.  Instead, they gave prominent air time to someone that publicly doxed a fellow student last year, just for liking a Facebook/Twitter post that called BLM a terrorist organization, and determined on her own that was a racist thing for that named individual to 'like.' 

One could make the case that the terrible video itself was a form of doxxing, targeting many fans and alums, including some on this list. By emphasizing the Crusader as a negative image that is associated with hate groups, racism, and particularly the KKK (and not acknowledging the proud legacy of the Valpo Crusader), the message in the video (not-so) subtly indicates that Valpo fans and alumni who continue to wear their VU gear with the Crusader image should be singled out for shame as unenlightened, maybe even racist, and most likely will not be welcome at future VU activities, including sporting events, just as the word "crusader" has been canceled, now banned from use and is being scrubbed in places where it has appeared in the past. The handling of this issue, including in the optics and poorly written language of the video, displays again that the damage to relations with fans and alumni goes beyond a mere changing of the mascot.

Quote from: valpotx on February 13, 2021, 01:47:09 PM

Quote from: David81 on February 13, 2021, 12:27:32 PM

Quote from: crusadermoe on February 12, 2021, 01:23:31 PM
I can live with a different mascot or just having none.  It's not a deal breaker for me.

Like so many others, I only find this mascot issue's timing irritating because it comes in the context of much more bigger problems of finance. And of course it emphasizes the long relentless desire to blend into the ldense forrest of declining liberal arts colleges. 

Perhaps the mascot name change is a cleverly timed "shiny object" to release publicly while the disastrous financial mess is being addressed. If so, it's pretty shrewd, but I'm not taking the bait. The central strategic issue is enrollment. Is an enhanced statement of wokeness a path to enrollment increases? Maybe. Not sure.

I'd be surprised if there was any clever strategic objective. For a school like VU, which must play to so many stakeholders spanning the religious, social, and political spectrum, while holding true to a faith identity and core constituency with moderate-to-conservative optics, this was something of a no-win dilemma. In fact, I give Interim President Irwin-Knott a lot of credit for taking one for the team, making a call on this now, rather than tossing it on the lap of incoming President Padilla.

For those who are angered by this decision as evidencing an institutional embrace of a left-leaning spirit of wokeness and political correctness, I'd ask that you pan the camera back and look at the U.S. higher ed landscape. Valpo is not an Oberlin, Grinnell, Macalester, or Wisconsin-Madison. The name change will not suddenly unleash a cadre of left-leaning high school seniors applying to VU and overwhelming the entering class. Against this broader higher ed canvas, Valpo remains a pretty traditional place. No one who shows up for a campus visit and sees the Chapel of the Resurrection is going to think otherwise.

But I respectfully submit that, for a long time, VU has had hard work to do to become a more inclusive place in image and in substance. I think it has made enormous progress on that since my days there (1977-81), and I am appreciative of the mascot change as a modest sign of that. In order to survive and thrive, VU has to walk a tightrope of embracing its Lutheran and more conservative core, while making more room for those of other beliefs and lifestyles. As a person of color (Asian American) and holder of old fashioned liberal politics, I do not expect nor ask VU to turn into a Macalester or a Madison. But a more inclusive version of Valpo is good for everyone.

Can you not see that giving video time to a very much far left/political activist Student Body President, would give the optics to those of us in the moderate-to-conservative crowd, that the university is publicly taking a more leftist approach going forward?  The current Student Body President is inconsequential when it comes to such a decision that affects such a long history of Valpo alumni, regardless of who that individual might have been.  If they just wanted to confirm student support, it could have been a simple sentence in the news announcement that the SBP is supportive of this change, versus providing a leftist platform that the term 'Crusader' is offensive, etc.  Instead, they gave prominent air time to someone that publicly doxed a fellow student last year, just for liking a Facebook/Twitter post that called BLM a terrorist organization, and determined on her own that was a racist thing for that named individual to 'like.'  You correctly pointed out that Valpo has traditionally been a moderate-to-conservative university in alumni/the public's eyes.  As I've said, I will continue to watch the news pushed out by the new Valpo administration, to see if it matches a Loyola (IL), Oberlin, etc.  You need to keep in mind that I am a moderate conservative nowadays, who is married to a Liberal, so the even more conservative alumni are even more upset by this stance. 

The student senate supported the proposal to retire the mascot. It only makes sense that the student senate president would help to announce the decision. And given the VU student body's moderate-to-conservative lean, either the vote is a fair reflection of student leaders' beliefs, or the conservative kids opted not to vote or run for office. (Back in my day, the student senate was hardly a left cell -- quite the opposite -- and I speak as someone who was a nominal Republican for most of my VU years and a student senator to boot. So maybe things have changed????)

I admit that although I am a big sports fan (the original and continuing main reason for following this board), I do not cling to college team nicknames in a way that would trigger my outrage if one was changed for social reasons. I identify with "Valpo" but not "Crusader." I went to law school at New York University and became a fan of its revived DIII basketball team, but I never gravitated to the "Violets." (Yup....at least they didn't try to add "Fighting" to that....) I do think it's fair to suggest that much of the deeper anger is coming not from some deep, abiding love of the Crusader imagery, but rather because the change was sparked by concerns that it was hurtful or offensive to those of certain groups. I would be happier if the former and not the latter was the case.

While Irwin-Knott may have "taken one for the team" by announcing the name change decision under her "interim" watch, this decision would not have been made without the blessing of new President Padilla. He will be the one who takes most of the heat for this.  For him to support this decision at the outset of his administration, with our university - and many of our peer institutions - facing more serious issues, is mystifying, not to mention very divisive.

I no longer fully trust the Board or the upper echelons of the University to make wise decisions or exercise good judgment. The last 4 years have seen several poor decisions followed by one negative headline after another, with the closing of the law school - an ongoing PR disaster if ever there was one - leading the way.

All of this is, of course, a shame since there are many, many fine people who work for this university, including a very dedicated faculty and support staff.

Perhaps President Padilla will reverse this trend and provide wise and common sense leadership. We all had better hope so.

Paul

I can't understand why some commenters in this forum take such a dark view of the University and the recent decision to retire the crusader mascot and moniker.  The university has been able to conduct in person classes during the Covid pandemic when many education institutions went completely online and thus lost the value of on-campus activities.  I would contend that this has not been a small accomplishment for Valpo.  Furthermore, the university has raised over $250 million in endowment and operating funds that will enhance the future sustainability of the university. The university's physical plant is in the best shape it has been in since I graduated from Valpo in the 1970's with modern and refurbished facilities for most critical functions such as library, union, science, arts, religion, business, nursing, engineering, marketing/recruiting, some housing and the vacant law buildings waiting for repurposing.  Yes, there are still needed areas for physical improvements in areas such as athletics, some academics and more modern housing.  New academic programs have been added and undersubscribed programs trimmed.  Academic achievements of individual students seem to be as prevalent as ever and I sense that Valpo's academic reputation is as strong as ever. 

The school must adjust to the times and moving away from a minor aspect of its identity (a mascot and nickname) that some people find offensive doesn't bother me considering all the other positive aspects of the university's accomplishments and mission.  The university, as do most colleges, has plenty of challenges to recruit new students so removing characterizations that some people find offensive (no matter how justified) probably makes good sense.

Quote from: 78crusader on February 13, 2021, 02:37:12 PM
While Irwin-Knott may have "taken one for the team" by announcing the name change decision under her "interim" watch, this decision would not have been made without the blessing of new President Padilla. He will be the one who takes most of the heat for this.  For him to support this decision at the outset of his administration, with our university - and many of our peer institutions - facing more serious issues, is mystifying, not to mention very divisive.

I no longer fully trust the Board or the upper echelons of the University to make wise decisions or exercise good judgment. The last 4 years have seen several poor decisions followed by one negative headline after another, with the closing of the law school - an ongoing PR disaster if ever there was one - leading the way.

All of this is, of course, a shame since there are many, many fine people who work for this university, including a very dedicated faculty and support staff.

Perhaps President Padilla will reverse this trend and provide wise and common sense leadership. We all had better hope so.

Paul

But if we are in agreement that there are other more pressing issues, then why all the blowback about the mascot? As I've written here, I support the decision but would not have stopped my donations to VU had it gone the other way. It was clear to me that this was contemplated extensively, and had the final decision been a respectful explanation of why VU opted to retain it, or something along the lines similar to what was posted about Holy Cross's approach, I would've said OK and moved on.

(Sidebar: The demise of the VU law school is heartbreaking, but the stars were lining up against it. I've read a lot about how and why the law school ended up closing its doors, and it keeps coming back to money: What some folks here may not know is that many law schools in the U.S. are surviving ONLY because of huge cash outlays from their parent universities that are drawing major resources from other programs and schools. By sharp contrast, before the 2008 meltdown, most law schools were at least breaking even and in many cases serving as cash cows to the parent university. Bottom line is that VU probably could've kept the law school going, but at the significant expense of other units within the university, and it would've always been operating at the margins in terms of acceptable LSAT scores and bar pass rates (the latter correlating with the former).)

Quote from: sfnmman on February 14, 2021, 10:17:17 AM
I can't understand why some commenters in this forum take such a dark view of the University and the recent decision to retire the crusader mascot and moniker.  The university has been able to conduct in person classes during the Covid pandemic when many education institutions went completely online and thus lost the value of on-campus activities.  I would contend that this has not been a small accomplishment for Valpo.  Furthermore, the university has raised over $250 million in endowment and operating funds that will enhance the future sustainability of the university. The university's physical plant is in the best shape it has been in since I graduated from Valpo in the 1970's with modern and refurbished facilities for most critical functions such as library, union, science, arts, religion, business, nursing, engineering, marketing/recruiting, some housing and the vacant law buildings waiting for repurposing.  Yes, there are still needed areas for physical improvements in areas such as athletics, some academics and more modern housing.  New academic programs have been added and undersubscribed programs trimmed.  Academic achievements of individual students seem to be as prevalent as ever and I sense that Valpo's academic reputation is as strong as ever. 

The school must adjust to the times and moving away from a minor aspect of its identity (a mascot and nickname) that some people find offensive doesn't bother me considering all the other positive aspects of the university's accomplishments and mission.  The university, as do most colleges, has plenty of challenges to recruit new students so removing characterizations that some people find offensive (no matter how justified) probably makes good sense.

It is a big political hot topic, in regards to the "woke/cancel culture."  Those that are likely to lean left, would support this decision more so than those of us that lean right.  It is not just a mascot change, but a potential shift in the public political stance of the university in which we graduated, and have since donated.  For those of you that are happy about this decision, great.  Would you be happy if there was another political hot topic that showed a shift to more of a far right/conservative university?  I've always enjoyed more of the moderate conservative stance of the university, and if this is a sign of things to come, that is where my feedback stems from, tied to watching our stance going forward, and if I will donate again.  My wife might donate to a cause like Planned Parenthood, but I would not.  Pretty simple to understand.

There really is no benefit to politicize the decision the university made to retire the crusader mascot.  Too many of today's critical issues are politicized to the detriment of appreciating others views.  That is the current problem with much of today's discourse where complicated subjects are simplified to either right or left (conservative or liberal) thinking.  For example complex issues such as environmental protection, energy use, health care, or economic disparity have been overly politicized making finding solutions more difficult.

I don't see retiring a term that some people find distasteful as a right or left issue.  What ever happened to the simple act of respecting the feelings of others even if you personally don't feel the same or understand why they find it objectionable?  Name changes happen all the time.  One of the previous posts here listed numerous sports team/mascot name changes. It doesn't have to be viewed as a right or left issue.

Quote from: sfnmman on February 14, 2021, 03:58:11 PM
There really is no benefit to politicize the decision the university made to retire the crusader mascot.  Too many of today's critical issues are politicized to the detriment of appreciating others views.  That is the current problem with much of today's discourse where complicated subjects are simplified to either right or left (conservative or liberal) thinking.  For example complex issues such as environmental protection, energy use, health care, or economic disparity have been overly politicized making finding solutions more difficult.

I don't see retiring a term that some people find distasteful as a right or left issue.  What ever happened to the simple act of respecting the feelings of others even if you personally don't feel the same or understand why they find it objectionable?  Name changes happen all the time.  One of the previous posts here listed numerous sports team/mascot name changes. It doesn't have to be viewed as a right or left issue.

It is politicized with the way that Valpo handled it, which you are not seeing.  I would be less worked up, if the very far left current SBP, wasn't given prominent video time in this announcement.  When it comes to a decision such as this that affects a large number of alumni, the university Interim President should have been the only speaker, and could reference faculty, student, and some alumni support.  Cut and dry, I move on.  Tying someone with extremist views of any sort, to this announcement, was just dumb. 

On another note, are you religious?  As I've said in other posts, I am a non-believer.  What do you call a non-believer?  An Atheist, correct?  Well, I find that term offensive, as it has been given such a negative connotation throughout human history, as if you are a non-believer, you must be evil.  Using your logic above, we should cancel the word Atheist, correct?

Whatever the actual merits of changing the Crusader, the survey process and timing amidst a CoVID financial crisis were both ridiculous.  Higher education displays itself as a clown car to serious people sometimes.

In terms of process this message board thread itself cites a quite recent Facebook poll (two years ago or less?) on this topic.  It drew a 75% favorable polling for keeping the Crusader.  That would be the simple reason that people are skeptical. Then of course there is the false dichotomy question so many cite; "Do you identify more as a Valpo person or a Crusader?" Those stunts don't build trust. 

More important than the process was the ridiculous timing of the whole mascot debate. VU ran an 11% deficit in fiscal 2018-2019 (PRE-PANDEMIC) according to the Moody's downgrade to "negative" from stable.  Does anyone know the deficit Valpo incurred in 2019-2020?  But....at least we have removed the Crusader now.

If the name is definitely going to change then at least we can start a suggestion list for them:

Paladins
Saints
Warriors

Quote from: soapyjeans on March 27, 2021, 09:34:15 AM
If the name is definitely going to change then at least we can start a suggestion list for them:

Paladins
Saints
Warriors

Sounds like the university would be better off to get rid of those particular faculty.

Quote from: soapyjeans on March 27, 2021, 09:34:15 AM
If the name is definitely going to change then at least we can start a suggestion list for them:

Paladins
Saints
Warriors

You mean like this thread?

https://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=3903.0

   The name "crusader" has found resonance in diverse sections of American society:

https://chicagocrusader.com/

Perhaps this has been mentioned before on one of the threads involving the "Crusader" issue and I just missed it because of my recent neglect of this forum, but as a former member of the Alumni Board of Directors I JUST found out that two members of that board resigned over this issue. Everything that I had seen made it seem like there was little if any push back on the proposal to remove the Crusader by any organization including Alumni. Was this brought up at any time on this forum?

I also have a rather strange story/conspiracy theory to tell.  I have been trying to "catch up" on what has been happening on the forum during the last month or so as I recover from COVID-19 and the PE that it caused. I had not really paid too much attention to my emails during that time and decided after reading about the Crusader survey I would go back and find it in my emails to look and see how it was worded. I searched and was unable to find it and that seemed strange. It was then that I realized that I had stopped receiving emails from the "University" in February of 2020. I guess I didn't notice because I was still receiving some personal emails from people I know at Valpo. So I called the Alumni office to see why this had happened and why they would not have sent the survey to a former Director and someone who has hosted nearly every major Valpo event in Fort Wayne since the 1990's along with returning to attend and participate in numerous events at the University. I was told that I had requested not to receive emails from Valpo back in September of 2017, literally at the same exact time I was hosting President Heckler during his last major visit to Fort Wayne. I told them that I had never done such a thing and that I had continued to get emails up until last February. Later that day I got a phone call from Linda Roettger the VU head of Alumni and we had a good constructive conversation about what I consider to be a lack of conviction and commitment from the University. Happily I was put back on the email list so I won't get blindsided by such issues in the future.  :)

How or why I was taken off of the email list I guess I will never know, my wife suggests that it might have something to do with my Twitter interactions with Kaitlyn, my favorite Valpo SBP.  ::)

Quote from: FWalum on March 30, 2021, 01:01:36 PM
Perhaps this has been mentioned before on one of the threads involving the "Crusader" issue and I just missed it because of my recent neglect of this forum, but as a former member of the Alumni Board of Directors I JUST found out that two members of that board resigned over this issue. Everything that I had seen made it seem like there was little if any push back on the proposal to remove the Crusader by any organization including Alumni. Was this brought up at any time on this forum?

I also have a rather strange story/conspiracy theory to tell.  I have been trying to "catch up" on what has been happening on the forum during the last month or so as I recover from COVID-19 and the PE that it caused. I had not really paid too much attention to my emails during that time and decided after reading about the Crusader survey I would go back and find it in my emails to look and see how it was worded. I searched and was unable to find it and that seemed strange. It was then that I realized that I had stopped receiving emails from the "University" in February of 2020. I guess I didn't notice because I was still receiving some personal emails from people I know at Valpo. So I called the Alumni office to see why this had happened and why they would not have sent the survey to a former Director and someone who has hosted nearly every major Valpo event in Fort Wayne since the 1990's along with returning to attend and participate in numerous events at the University. I was told that I had requested not to receive emails from Valpo back in September of 2017, literally at the same exact time I was hosting President Heckler during his last major visit to Fort Wayne. I told them that I had never done such a thing and that I had continued to get emails up until last February. Later that day I got a phone call from Linda Roettger the VU head of Alumni and we had a good constructive conversation about what I consider to be a lack of conviction and commitment from the University. Happily I was put back on the email list so I won't get blindsided by such issues in the future.  :)

How or why I was taken off of the email list I guess I will never know, my wife suggests that it might have something to do with my Twitter interactions with Kaitlyn, my favorite Valpo SBP.  ::)

Wow, the plot thickens, as I hadn't seen that 2 Board members resigned over this issue.  Yes, the topic of everyone not receiving the survey was brought up, as many of us former athletes did not receive it.  I get all other Valpo emails, but not that one?  I am also the chapter 'President' for DFW, so it makes no sense. 

Who elects the "Alumni Association Board of Directors?" It sounds like they are essentially neutered.

Hopefully there is a mechanism for the alumni to elect them but I have never seen it. I truly recall in the 1980s being given a ballot at Homecoming to annually elect some member of the "Alumni Association Board of Directors." Are they simply puppets of the staff now?

The recent "Valpo clubs" seem to have been arbitrary and in no way organic.  On my last few glances years ago it seemed like 1/3 to 1/2 were "vacant" in leadership. Our region had a "leader" who seemed the antithesis of one. 

In response to fwalum's comment, perhaps that is one of the reasons that Valpo has very poorly recruited the Ft. Wayne market in recent years.  The FW and Northeastern Indiana market gets very little publicity of any kind, from academics to athletic endeavors.   Sounds like the "cancel culture" is taking hold...if you are not with me it is time for you to be deleted.

Quote from: crusadermoe on March 31, 2021, 08:08:42 AM
Who elects the "Alumni Association Board of Directors?" It sounds like they are essentially neutered.

Hopefully there is a mechanism for the alumni to elect them but I have never seen it. I truly recall in the 1980s being given a ballot at Homecoming to annually elect some member of the "Alumni Association Board of Directors." Are they simply puppets of the staff now?

The recent "Valpo clubs" seem to have been arbitrary and in no way organic.  On my last few glances years ago it seemed like 1/3 to 1/2 were "vacant" in leadership. Our region had a "leader" who seemed the antithesis of one. 

I was volunteered by the previous DFW club head to take over, when he was getting on in age.  VU72 can attest to that, as he used to be part of the group lol.  I was 'vetted' by some of the Alumni Relations office, but it wasn't a deep-dive.

Quote from: FWalum on March 30, 2021, 01:01:36 PMIt was then that I realized that I had stopped receiving emails from the "University" in February of 2020. I guess I didn't notice because I was still receiving some personal emails from people I know at Valpo. So I called the Alumni office to see why this had happened and why they would not have sent the survey to a former Director and someone who has hosted nearly every major Valpo event in Fort Wayne since the 1990's along with returning to attend and participate in numerous events at the University. I was told that I had requested not to receive emails from Valpo back in September of 2017, literally at the same exact time I was hosting President Heckler during his last major visit to Fort Wayne. I told them that I had never done such a thing and that I had continued to get emails up until last February. Later that day I got a phone call from Linda Roettger the VU head of Alumni and we had a good constructive conversation about what I consider to be a lack of conviction and commitment from the University. Happily I was put back on the email list so I won't get blindsided by such issues in the future. 

For whatever reason, it feels like alumni relations has been placed on the back burner at Valpo the past few years. I'm hoping that President Padilla starts to turn things around on that front.

Since I've never heard of any hate group using the term "crusader" it would tremendously help if the faculty who want the change actually named the hate groups they're referring to. 

I think you are about 6 weeks late to the party.

It appears the official finalists list is the following: The Valpo Storm, The Valpo Beacons, The Valpo Gold, The Valpo Sparks, The Valpo Lightning, The Valpo Tempest, The Valpo Dunehawks, The Valpo Lightning Hawks. Personally, I find none of these inspiring.  :(

Golden Knights would have been an easy one.

The Tempest (Shakespeare play) must have been nominated by the English Literature professor.    ??? ??? :o

I can't say that I like any of those names. If I was forced to choose from that list, the only ones that seem worthy of consideration are Gold, Sparks and (I guess) Dunehawks.

What is it with seeming to emphasize the meteorology program? Three of these names are associated with meteorology (Storm, Tempest, Lightning). The meteorology program is quite good, but it provides a very small percentage of graduates for the university. As an alum from a much larger college, I would never advocate for a name associated with my college.

Agree that Golden Knights would have been an easy (and logical) choice.

The ramifications from making a politically-correct decision are often exasperating.

Quote from: Just Sayin on June 10, 2021, 11:40:42 AM
The ramifications from making a politically-correct decision are often exasperating.

When you have a committee whose priority is a selection that does not cause any direct or indirect offense to anyone's feelings, you only get a choice so bland as to lack energizing everyone's emotions. Additionally, none of these names are conducive to a physical mascot at games other than Dunehawks, which probably would look pretty pathetic.

Those are all terrible names.  I agree that highlighting the Meteorology program makes no sense.  You are going to cater to a very small segment of the student population?

Whats the exact goal? Build brand identity? Create student excitement? Create a sense of connectivity with the surrounding area? No real plan except to get rid of the crusader? Toss spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks?

When the best choice is reminiscent of a minor league baseball team, it's probably best to go with none of the above.

Gotta love the fact that the people who created this mess (the SBP and interim President) aren't even at the University anymore.

Not sure that committee took the mascot/schools image seriously.  Golden Knights should be obvious choice or Paladins.  And I don't see what a "dunehawk" has to do with lutheran religion...   What a mess.

EVen a large secular public university (Univeristy of Central Florida) is willing to call themselves the Golden Knights! 

There is no mention of it, but perhaps they recently started to be intimidated by some band of academic PC loons. So far Golden Knights has survived there.

Quote from: vu84v2 on June 10, 2021, 11:28:43 AM
I can't say that I like any of those names. If I was forced to choose from that list, the only ones that seem worthy of consideration are Gold, Sparks and (I guess) Dunehawks.

What is it with seeming to emphasize the meteorology program? Three of these names are associated with meteorology (Storm, Tempest, Lightning). The meteorology program is quite good, but it provides a very small percentage of graduates for the university. As an alum from a much larger college, I would never advocate for a name associated with my college.

Agree that Golden Knights would have been an easy (and logical) choice.

I doubt these names had anything to do with Meteorology per se, but rather, perhaps with the actual weather in Valpo?   :rotfl:

Golden Knights? Talk about bland and uninspired.  Most of the names on the list are at least unique and either represent the university or geography. I'm not a fan of a lot of the names, but at least they're more inspiring than something generic like "Knights"

I think Beacon will end up being chosen, with Dunehawks a possibility.

Quote from: crusadermoe on June 11, 2021, 03:11:02 PM

EVen a large secular public university (Univeristy of Central Florida) is willing to call themselves the Golden Knights! 

There is no mention of it, but perhaps they recently started to be intimidated by some band of academic PC loons. So far Golden Knights has survived there.

Central Florida's nickname is the Knights, not the Golden Knights. But I agree that I do not see how this name could be problematic except for possible (and unlikely) copyright issues with the Vegas hockey team. But if that were a concern, Lightning would not make the list.

Beacons is awful.

In typical political fashion those who made up the list to vote on, insured the results they wanted by loading the poll with lame choices.  Valpo should throw that poll out and let the students choose their mascot or at least the surrounding community.  Keep in mind, the mascot shows the schools athletic teams "spirit of competition".  Which spark, gold and beacon don't do.  From the looks of it the poll is heavily slanted towards dunehawks (only one that reflects fierceness).  I just don't see any other of those choices lasting or working out. 

Quote from: soapyjeans on June 13, 2021, 05:05:04 PM
In typical political fashion those who made up the list to vote on, insured the results they wanted by loading the poll with lame choices.  Valpo should throw that poll out and let the students choose their mascot or at least the surrounding community.  Keep in mind, the mascot shows the schools athletic teams "spirit of competition".  Which spark, gold and beacon don't do.  From the looks of it the poll is heavily slanted towards dunehawks (only one that reflects fierceness).  I just don't see any other of those choices lasting or working out. 

Dunehawks would work for me but don't be too surprised if a very new VU president chooses a different answer.

I was just looking at an alumni email and had a thought about a nickname that could have been chosen that seems to have had no consideration.

Torchbearers

It has some athletic meaning (Olympics). It offers some meaning towards being a leader. It is unique. I cannot see how it would be offensive to anyone. The only drawback would be that it is a bit of a 'letter salad', but it would mean a heckuva lot more meaningful to say "come to Valpo to be a Torchbearer" than it would to say "come to Valpo to be a Dunehawk".

I could have gotten behind the name "Family" as on Sheldon's shirt. Think of all the possibilities: Video montage with "We Are Family" by Sister Sledge at women's games; a personalized rendition of "The Adams Family" theme song but replace "Valpo" for "Adams" and individualize the lyrics for Valparaiso University in intros at men's games; The Godfather would be a goldmine for quotes and memes, etc.: "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man." or "You can do anything, but never go against the family."
[tweet]1412524615973453832[/tweet]

Has a date been established when the President will announce the new nickname?  If the formerly announced "final" list is any indication, I hope he tells the committee to start over.

Quote from: valpo64 on August 06, 2021, 10:51:00 AM
Has a date been established when the President will announce the new nickname?  If the formerly announced "final" list is any indication, I hope he tells the committee to start over.

He announced during his townhall meetings that the final decision has been made and they are waiting for art work prior to releasing it.  It should be soon, certainly before Homecoming.

Next week

Curious if any of the current Football players placed the Crusader logo from my days on campus on this artwork, or if they are tied to others lol.

http://www.valpoathletics.com/football/news/2021-22/20574/valpo-football-kicks-off-preseason-camp/