I've sort of been thinking about this ever since we got the invite to the MVC. So what happens to the Horizon and the Summit?
LeCrone (thank God he's not our problem anymore) wants to expand to 12 or 14(!)....
Seems like these are the schools on LeCrone's wish-list:
-Belmont (already tried and failed to land them). Would be a great future addition to MVC.
-Omaha. No secret that LeCrone covets them and fits his "model" of big market, but gets absolutely no attention from the media/community. Attendance less then 1,900 people.
-Denver. WAY out of the footprint but big market. It's hockey school/not a Basketball school. They have a +3M budget (mostly going towards travel expenses). Not likely, imo.
-Robert Morris. Seems like they is public interest in them. They only have 3 mens sports sponsored by the HL. No baseball, which the HL badly needs. They are out of the footprint but relatively close to YSU. Seems like there may be mutual interest because they apparently aren't happy in the NEC, but would be more travel for them.
-IPFW... They are in the geographic region & would "replace" Valpo as an Indiana school. I think it would be a bad move for the HL, because there has been rumors that they may go D2. Low Budget and not great athletics. They'd jump at the opportunity to join the HL. I would avoid them, but they have Baseball which the HL needs.
-IUPUI... In the footprint and in Indy where the HL offices located, low budget, not great athletics, no baseball. I think there is almost no way the HL picks them up but you never know what LeCrone is thinking.
-Murray State... I could see why they want them but people I've talk to there is almost no chance Murray State would leave for the HL and wouldn't be interested in joining the HL.
-Dakota Schools (NDSU/SDSU)... they are a package deal. You would at least need to take 2 of the 4. Seems unlikely they'd leave the Summit because they are starting to run that league because of the heavy influence they are starting gain there. The Conf Tourney is in their area so it may be a tough sell, but if the Summit started to get poached then maybe they jump ship. Only problem is they are up in Dakotas and out of everyones geographic footprint, which means heavy travel costs for every other school. I doubt the MVC would ever add 2 of the Dakotas because of they really like the low travel. Maybe the HL would take that risk. NDSU/SDSU are seen as 'up & coming' programs.
The MVC is going to explore going to 12 the next 9 months and the HL will at least need 1 probably will add 3 maybe 5 in the future. We could be "competing" for the same group of schools.
Seems like MVC would add 2 more for the right 2 (Belmont/Murray State). 11 is completely out the question in the MVC.
Feelings of jealousy would easily creep in if we join a somewhat depleted MVC and then Belmont and Murray State join the Horizon. But, that seems pretty unlikely.
The Dakotas have had some success, but Nagy's move to Wright State suggests they may still be a rung below the current (recent?) Horizon. Perhaps their funding is behind Horizon levels?
Only realistic schools are IUPUI, IPFW, UMKC, Chicago St, and RMU. The HL is not attractive as it once was.
Omaha will not leave the SL for the HL. 1. They like their proximity to the Dakotas and the conference tournament. They have a long relationship with the Dakotas who run that conference. 2. The SL has ranked higher than the HL the past two years and the HL just lost it's best basketball school.
If I was......
Detroit - look to get into the MAAC. The MAAC could go divisions and have a west that would make travel a little better. Detroit is a hub for Delta and travel would be easy.
CSU - drop to DII. We know that athletics help promote a school. However, CSU is a commuter school and has a lot of adult students meaning they don't have the typical on campus student experience. I don't think athletics are important for their image or student recruitment/attainment.
YSU - Clearly they want to be a football school. Then go for it. Make a push and put some more money in it. Join the MAC and be a football school.
Quote from: agibson on May 12, 2017, 10:45:53 AM
Feelings of jealousy would easily creep in if we join a somewhat depleted MVC and then Belmont and Murray State join the Horizon. But, that seems pretty unlikely.
The Dakotas have had some success, but Nagy's move to Wright State suggests they may still be a rung below the current (recent?) Horizon. Perhaps their funding is behind Horizon levels?
I would be perplexed if Belmont left for the Horizon League now, but for some reason their Pres/AD thinks staying in the OVC where it may be an easier path to winning the Conference Tourney every single year with out having to go through tougher competition. Also the travel costs are pretty low in the OVC. They've apparently said they aren't interest to both the MVC really early on in the process, and they've apparently told the HL they aren't interest twice (privately).
PantherU has been beating the drum since we got the invite to the MVC to replace us with Belmont, Murray State, & Robert Morris. I've seen quite a few Murray State media guys publicly on twitter shoot it down. As for Robert Morris I think its not completely out of the question because they are mildly close to YSU and they haven't been bad at Basketball.
Oakland Reporter talking Robert Morris to the HL: (same reporter that said Oakland ended talks with the A10 to pursue to HL)
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/862477110841102336
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/862479469801598976
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/862480616524324865
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/862481236073304065
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/862496939912433673
https://twitter.com/Flamesmania/status/862835063775428608
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/862835242993934336
https://twitter.com/Flamesmania/status/862835567964422145
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/862835829533790210
I personally don't see why any team from the OVC would leave for the Horizon. With Butler and Valpo, yes, but those days are gone now. There is no team in the Horizon anymore that is a name that is stronger than the tops names in the OVC...And geographically it is much more compact.
The Summit, I could see a few teams wanting to leave for the Horizon...
In a few years time I fully expect to see either the WAC, Summit or Horizon fold. (Horizon by far the least likely of that group)
Robert Morris in Pittsburgh? They draw 1000 sometimes for games!
Has the HL started seeking candidates yet? Or do they think Valpo will stay?
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 12, 2017, 12:10:49 PM
Has the HL started seeking candidates yet? Or do they think Valpo will stay?
I'm sure they already started reaching out to schools. They know Valpo is on the way out.
Sporting News reported potential replacements: -Robert Morris
-Omaha
-Fort Wayne
-IUPUI
-UMKC
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/horizon-league-valparaiso-replacements-missouri-valley-college-basketball-conference-realignment/qrtz5s72ntk31rop3l88ab2y1
The Detroit News"Universities that could be targets might include Fort Wayne, Indianapolis and Omaha from the Summit League; and Belmont, Murray State and SIU Edwardsville from the Ohio Valley Conference.
Belmont, Murray State and Omaha were three other institutions in talks recently with the Missouri Valley Conference, but only Valparaiso got an invitation.
One wild card to keep an eye on: Phoenix's Grand Canyon, a member of the Western Athletic Conference. Grand Canyon is coached by former Central Michigan star and Traverse City native Dan Majerle, and has a rabid fan base."
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/05/09/valparaisos-exit-leave-horizon-league-hole/101474562/
Green Bay Press Gazette:LeCrone couldn't say whether the Horizon would stay at nine teams for next season, adding it's too early to make any promises since Valparaiso hasn't officially transitioned out of the league.
"We have really been on an 18- to 24-month look at expanding our league, even beyond 10 to maybe 12 or 14," LeCrone said. "We are still on that path. That is still our strategic plan. We think that helps us improve in men's basketball.
"We have quite a good-sized candidate list. We have a number of candidates that are interested in coming into the Horizon League. So we are in a time where we could have, I'm not suggesting the process is over, we could have a member transitioning out and we could have some members that are transitioning in."
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/sports/college/uwgb/2017/05/09/valparaiso-expected-leave-horizon-league/101471576/
Fort Wayne seems like the most logical addition for the HL, since it can work as a travel partner for UIC and has baseball. It seems like a program capable of breaking out, given the right opportunity.
I'd go to 12 with some combination of IUPUI, SIUe, and Robert Morris joining FW. I don't see Omaha particularly interested, as the Summit is a better fit geographically and on par with a Valpo-less HL in terms of MBB quality.
For the sake of my own entertainment, I hope it's Grand Canyon, Denver, and NMSU as that will confirm everything we already know about the questionable wisdom of conference leadership.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
another Summit school to discuss for the HL... Western Illinois... have baseball. What am I missing?
Quote from: talksalot on May 12, 2017, 12:58:27 PManother Summit school to discuss for the HL... Western Illinois... have baseball. What am I missing?
Makes too much sense for that to happen... Obviously New Mexico State is a better fit, or better yet maybe there's a small college in Hawaii that wants to join...
Quote from: vuny98 on May 12, 2017, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: talksalot on May 12, 2017, 12:58:27 PManother Summit school to discuss for the HL... Western Illinois... have baseball. What am I missing?
Makes too much sense for that to happen... Obviously New Mexico State is a better fit, or better yet maybe there's a small college in Hawaii that wants to join...
Chaminade did have that big win over Virginia one time...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: talksalot on May 12, 2017, 12:58:27 PM
another Summit school to discuss for the HL... Western Illinois... have baseball. What am I missing?
Given complaints about YSU's football emphasis interfering with basketball, I'd guess HL members would have reservations about going back to the well for a school with a similar profile.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Murray or Belmont to the HL is a message board pipe dream, for Murray especially. Yeah, the Racers are totally going to make a lateral move to another one-bid league where the nearest conference mate *is further away from them than literally every OVC school*. I love Panther U's school spirit, but come on.
Given that they are the #7 basketball team in their own town, I fully expect LeCrone to jump on board the IUPUI train.
Quote from: VU2014 on May 12, 2017, 10:33:43 AM-IPFW... They are in the geographic region & would "replace" Valpo as an Indiana school. I think it would be a bad move for the HL, because there has been rumors that they may go D2. Low Budget and not great athletics. They'd jump at the opportunity to join the HL. I would avoid them, but they have Baseball which the HL needs.
I think this has been blown way out of proportion. I admit that I don't really agree with the current direction of splitting the university, but everything IPFW has done in the 15 years prior to 2016 was to move it away from a commuter school and into a real campus with housing, a fieldhouse and lots of green space. Being D1 is an integral part of that equation so I don't see them moving down to DII. Joining the HL would drastically reduce their travel budget as they are currently the eastern edge of the SL. Jon Coffman is a good coach, does well at developing players and is innovative recruiter.
Personally, I would pick Ft. Wayne if they stay with 10, and add IUPUI and W. IL if they go to 12. That would give the HL a strong presence in Indiana and Illinois and a tight, contiguous footprint at a time when athletic budgets are being stretched to the max. They could keep the tournament in Detroit or opt to move it to Indy. This combination of schools and locations could help stabilize the conference for a long time to come IMO.
This would not be a conference I would be ashamed to be a part of by any stretch. Other than YSU, every current HL program has experienced sustained periods of basketball success in the past. Odds are good that several will improve significantly over the next 5 years.
There is no reason the HL has to tank.
Quote from: wh on May 12, 2017, 05:43:02 PM
Personally, I would pick Ft. Wayne if they stay with 10, and add IUPUI and W. IL if they go to 12. That would give the HL a strong presence in Indiana and Illinois and a tight, contiguous footprint at a time when athletic budgets are being stretched to the max. They could keep the tournament in Detroit or opt to move it to Indy. This combination of schools and locations could help stabilize the conference for a long time to come IMO.
This would not be a conference I would be ashamed to be a part of by any stretch. Other than YSU, every current HL program has experienced sustained periods of basketball success in the past. Odds are good that several will improve significantly over the next 5 years.
There is no reason the HL has to tank.
I'm probably biased, but I do think IUPUI has potential. Their move to the renovated Fairgrounds Arena gives them a great facility and they are in the middle of a basketball hotbed. They have also taken steps to move away from the "commuter school" label, adding on campus housing and several very nice apartment complexes have been constructed on the fringe of campus. I know little about their finances, but with a slight increase in budget, think they could be a nice addition.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on May 12, 2017, 03:12:37 PM
Murray or Belmont to the HL is a message board pipe dream, for Murray especially. Yeah, the Racers are totally going to make a lateral move to another one-bid league where the nearest conference mate *is further away from them than literally every OVC school*. I love Panther U's school spirit, but come on.
Given that they are the #7 basketball team in their own town, I fully expect LeCrone to jump on board the IUPUI train.
I want to point out that I freely admit, every time, the chances of bringing in Murray State and Belmont are slim-to-none. I'm just throwing ideas out there. A lot of the time, I'll throw and idea out and it misses. Sometimes, I'll throw out an idea (http://pantheru.com/2014/05/university-should-secure-naming-rights/) and it sticks (http://archive.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/former-us-cellular-arena-to-be-named-for-uwm-panthers-b99299651z1-264766131.html).
We'll probably add three schools that few will be excited about, then one or more of them will eventually do well.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on May 12, 2017, 02:13:37 PMChaminade did have that big win over Virginia one time...
I like this guy ;D
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 12, 2017, 12:10:49 PM
Has the HL started seeking candidates yet? Or do they think Valpo will stay?
(http://static-cdn2.ustream.tv/videopic/0/1/44/44670/44670853/1_5374734_44670853_320x240_b_1:2.jpg)
"We'll think about it."
Quote from: talksalot on May 12, 2017, 12:58:27 PM
another Summit school to discuss for the HL... Western Illinois... have baseball. What am I missing?
Did you ever visit Illinois​ west of Peoria?
I can't imagine a plan for Horizon League addition(s) that does not include an Indiana school. Without Valpo, the HL has teams in Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, and Kentucky. The league would look like a donut with Indiana as the center opening, which would seem odd, especially since the Horizon League headquarters are in Indianapolis!
Quote from: valpopal on May 12, 2017, 08:32:22 PM
I can't imagine a plan for Horizon League addition(s) that does not include an Indiana school. Without Valpo, the HL has teams in Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, and Kentucky. The league would look like a donut with Indiana as the center opening, which would seem odd, especially since the Horizon League headquarters are in Indianapolis!
Southern Indiana might be the way to go if following the Northern Kentucky model.
HL might have to wait a few years but that seems to be the pace LeCrone and the HL work at.
Quote from: bbtds on May 12, 2017, 08:41:49 PM
Quote from: valpopal on May 12, 2017, 08:32:22 PM
I can't imagine a plan for Horizon League addition(s) that does not include an Indiana school. Without Valpo, the HL has teams in Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, and Kentucky. The league would look like a donut with Indiana as the center opening, which would seem odd, especially since the Horizon League headquarters are in Indianapolis!
Southern Indiana might be the way to go if following the Northern Kentucky model.
HL might have to wait a few years but that seems to be the pace LeCrone and the HL work at.
I'm sad we couldn't see the future of NKU while in the HL. They are a serious program and I foresee solid success for them. NKU and OU will be missed.
It seems that a number of you are saying the addition of Ft. Wayne will be a good thing for the HL. I'm not sure they are a viable D-1 program in the long run as some think. Even though the campus may have a lot of green space and a recreation facility for the students, their "gym" seats about 1,800 with very uncomfortable smaller than normal chairback seats. At times they use the Allen County War Memorial Coliseum that, even when they block off thousands of seats for aesthetic purposes, draws anywhere from 1,000 to 1,500 per game if they are lucky. While they have enjoyed very good coaching and some pretty good teams in recent years, the recent changes in their campus operation/mgt., etc. and now the new name of Purdue Northeast has cast many doubts on their Div. 1 longevity. Time will tell, but I sure wouldn't bet on this horse.
Why doesn't IFPW rebrand as Fort Wayne University or the University of Fort Wayne? Is it simply because Purdue wants their name on the school? Tarleton State University is part of the Texas A&M system. Lamar University is part of the Texas State system. It can be done, and still have that tie.
IPFW has been in the middle of a tussle between the local school administration, some of the business community, IU and Purdue for years. I, like many other people, thought the school and it's very nice campus would eventually become an independent school in NE Indiana. However, after months of working on the problem, Purdue now will assume control and the school will be re-named Purdue-Northeast. Indiana will have a couple of programs on the campus however the school will be called Purdue Northeast. Confused? I am. I believe the changes starte in July of '18.
The same thing could happen to IUPUI and Ft. Wayne as happened to Valpo and Oakland when they moved to the HL. Players and their families that would balk at the prospects of traveling to the Dakotas, Nebraska, Oaklahoma and Colorado to play a bunch of bb unknowns may give both programs more serious consideration as members of the Horizon League. I think both programs have great potential for growth.
Yikes, I hope that they rethink that Purdue Northeast moniker. They basically bail on any name tied to Fort Wayne.
Quote from: valpotx on May 14, 2017, 12:08:00 PM
Yikes, I hope that they rethink that Purdue Northeast moniker. They basically bail on any name tied to Fort Wayne.
Those rebrandings aren't cheap either. If the school is struggling financially, there are probably better uses for the money.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are more important considerations than mid major basketball when selecting a name. Purdue University is an internationally recognized, respected name in higher education. Personally, I would much prefer a reference to Purdue University on my resume than "Ft. Wayne U.," especially if I'm an engineering major or other field that Purdue is nationally ranked in. "Ft. Wayne" has secondary tier written all over it.
Quote from: wh on May 14, 2017, 01:48:48 PM
There are more important considerations than mid major basketball when selecting a name. Purdue University is an internationally recognized, respected name in higher education. Personally, I would much prefer a reference to Purdue University on my resume than "Ft. Wayne U.," especially if I'm an engineering major or other field that Purdue is nationally ranked in. "Ft. Wayne" has secondary tier written all over it.
Understandable. Then I'd go with Purdue-Fort Wayne, keeping athletics as Fort Wayne. Purdue-Northeast has community college written all over it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I wonder if the Pioneer League might become an option if a move to the Horizon leaves Robert Morris looking for a football home.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on May 14, 2017, 02:27:03 PMQuote from: wh on May 14, 2017, 01:48:48 PMThere are more important considerations than mid major basketball when selecting a name. Purdue University is an internationally recognized, respected name in higher education. Personally, I would much prefer a reference to Purdue University on my resume than "Ft. Wayne U.," especially if I'm an engineering major or other field that Purdue is nationally ranked in. "Ft. Wayne" has secondary tier written all over it.
Understandable. Then I'd go with Purdue-Fort Wayne, keeping athletics as Fort Wayne. Purdue-Northeast has community college written all over it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Purdue-Northeast" sounds the same to me as "Purdue-North Central" or "Purdue-Calumet". Nothing against those schools and their alumni, but I don't think of them in the same vein as Purdue-West Lafayette.
I'd agree with the Purdue-Fort Wayne/Fort Wayne Mastodons deal.
Is IUPUI going to have to deal with a similar budget restructuring?
How hard do we think the HL is going to try to keep the travel partner situation going? We went without it for a year or two after Butler but before Oakland. Right now, UIC is partner-less. IUPUI,
PNE (sorry, can't) Fort Wayne, or Southern Indiana (D2 straight to Horizon seems like a big jump to me) would fill the void. Milwaukee might too, but that would strand Green Bay.
QuoteUnderstandable. Then I'd go with Purdue-Fort Wayne, keeping athletics as Fort Wayne. Purdue-Northeast has community college written all over it.
This. You already have brand equity with Ft. Wayne in the name. You've been IPFW for years. Shorten to P-FW if you must, but man, Purdue-Northeast sounds like an extension office in a strip mall. (And fair or not, it conjures up community college, since that's essentially what Purdue-North Central was known as for generations).
Quote from: hailcrusaders on May 14, 2017, 10:04:29 PM"Purdue-Northeast" sounds the same to me as "Purdue-North Central" or "Purdue-Calumet". Nothing against those schools and their alumni, but I don't think of them in the same vein as Purdue-West Lafayette.
Considering the fact that Purdue-North Central and Purdue-Calumet have now combined under Mitch Daniels and are now called Purdue-Northwest it makes perfect sense to now call Fort Wayne "Purdue-Northeast."
Chicago St. - Chicago State provides a quality education and to emphasize the school's uniqueness, such as the weaving classes it offers.
That's really a class? No wonder they are in risk of losing their accreditation. I thought Chicago St. would be a realistic candidate and great travel partner for UIC. The financial and academic situation is too big of a risk. How do they afford the WAC?
Weaving classes and such are not atypical.My friend at Purdue took one and a bowling class. It's an art class and they are usually provided as electives to help get Seniors and Upper classmen out of lower level classes that underclassman need for their major. I personally sometimes wish Valpo had more classes like this as sometimes first years have a difficult time scheduling b/c seniors looking to meet elective requirements take certain 100 level courses that are a requirement for some majors.
As for naming the "new" Ft. Wayne, it has already been announced that the new name will be Purdue-Northeast. The current Chancellor of the school as it currently stands(IPFW) retires at the end of this year and so far no replacement has been named. With the realignment, IU's presence on the campus will only consist of 2 bldgs on the campus. Last week it was announced that IU will not have a Chancellor of their own in FW. Perhaps the "new" school will try to keep and promote the "Fort Wayne" name for their athletic teams, however the school will be named Purdue-Northeast. Talk about a screwed up mess, the current music and drama areas, now part of the IU program, will next year be run by Purdue...AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A MUSIC PROGRAM IN LAFAYETTE!!
I agree, Purdue-Northeast screams community college.
I don't understand the legalities, but it seems if Southern Indiana could break off from ISU, IPFW should be able to do the same. I would think all the justifications for doing it in Evansville would be in play in Ft. Wayne. Southern Indiana and Northern Indiana. Seems logical.
Regardless of what Fort Wayne is going to be/should be called, the Horizon League needs to make something positive happen quickly (assuming we accept the invite to the MVC). Because in my eyes, in terms of basketball, the Summit is now better than the Horizon
Quote from: valpo4life on May 15, 2017, 11:34:23 AM
Regardless of what Fort Wayne is going to be/should be called, the Horizon League needs to make something positive happen quickly (assuming we accept the invite to the MVC). Because in my eyes, in terms of basketball, the Summit is now better than the Horizon
Unfortunately, this is true. The Summit somehow has collected a set of schools that have increased their Men's Basketball presence. Congrats to them.
Quote from: valpo4life on May 15, 2017, 11:34:23 AM
Regardless of what Fort Wayne is going to be/should be called, the Horizon League needs to make something positive happen quickly (assuming we accept the invite to the MVC). Because in my eyes, in terms of basketball, the Summit is now better than the Horizon
(http://static-cdn2.ustream.tv/videopic/0/1/44/44670/44670853/1_5374734_44670853_320x240_b_1:2.jpg)
"We'll think about it."
Quote from: bbtds on May 15, 2017, 11:45:29 AM
Quote from: valpo4life on May 15, 2017, 11:34:23 AM
Regardless of what Fort Wayne is going to be/should be called, the Horizon League needs to make something positive happen quickly (assuming we accept the invite to the MVC). Because in my eyes, in terms of basketball, the Summit is now better than the Horizon
(http://static-cdn2.ustream.tv/videopic/0/1/44/44670/44670853/1_5374734_44670853_320x240_b_1:2.jpg)
"We'll think about it."
I don't want to be rude, but I honestly am so happy he's not our commissioner anymore... he made some great moves like the 'HL network' but it didn't take long for ESPN3 to render it completely obsolete. I don't give him credit for OU (b/c they were an obvious add at the time), but I will credit NKU to him as a good add but I've heard from a few people that there were really a few ADs/others that were pushing for NKU before they came on his radar as a target, regardless good for him for pushing for it I guess.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 15, 2017, 10:29:53 AMTalk about a screwed up mess, the current music and drama areas, now part of the IU program, will next year be run by Purdue...AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A MUSIC PROGRAM IN LAFAYETTE!!
Valpo64 brings up perhaps the most overlooked parts of this whole Purdue takeover. IPFW has an accredited music department that offers degrees from the renowned IU School of Music. Its main facility is the John and Ruth Rhinehart Music Center, a beautiful facility (and expensive) that features the outstanding 1,600-seat Auer Performance Hall and the 250-seat Rhinehart Recital Hall, rehearsal halls, studios, and practice rooms. They offered technical collaboration with Sweetwater Sound, something even IU could not do.
QuoteThrough the generous support of Sweetwater Sound Inc, the Department of Music has announced a new program in music technology. The IPFW Sweetwater Music Technology program offers students the chance to learn recording arts, digital sampling, mixing, live sound, and music composition using the latest technologies in IPFW's music technology facility. This unique partnership with one of the country's leading music technology companies allow students to learn at the side of professionals in their field and participate in internships at Sweetwater.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56bc30772eeb81bc2dc70ba9/56c3ef5e859fd092ec1bef6f/56c3efc5859fd092ec1bf230/1455681485275/ipfw-community-orchestra-fort-wayne-indiana-rhinehart-music-auer-hall-7207.jpg)
Auer Performance Hall
This department was really one of the gems of IPFW and I have to wonder what will happen to it when it can no longer offer the IU diploma. I don't even know what kinds of degrees they will be allowed to confer. Right now they offer:
Bachelor of Music Education Choral/General (B.Mus.Ed.)
Bachelor of Music Education Instrumental/General (B.Mus.Ed.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Piano (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Instrumental (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Vocal (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Guitar (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Science in Music Therapy (B.S.M.T.)
Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field Music Technology (B.S.)
Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field (B.S.)
Purdue currently offers no degrees in music and only has a Department of University Bands. If Purdue-Northeast is somehow allowed to continue offering degrees in music, it certainly will suffer a large reduction of applicants because it will no longer be part of the IU School of Music. This was a really stupid move and because arts programs are often overlooked not something they paid much attention to in the impact studies.
Rant over :banghead: Can you tell I was originally a Vocal Performance major at VU before switching to Business...
Quote from: FWalum on May 15, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 15, 2017, 10:29:53 AMTalk about a screwed up mess, the current music and drama areas, now part of the IU program, will next year be run by Purdue...AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A MUSIC PROGRAM IN LAFAYETTE!!
Valpo64 brings up perhaps the most overlooked parts of this whole Purdue takeover. IPFW has an accredited music department that offers degrees from the renowned IU School of Music. Its main facility is the John and Ruth Rhinehart Music Center, a beautiful facility (and expensive) that features the outstanding 1,600-seat Auer Performance Hall and the 250-seat Rhinehart Recital Hall, rehearsal halls, studios, and practice rooms. They offered technical collaboration with Sweetwater Sound, something even IU could not do.QuoteThrough the generous support of Sweetwater Sound Inc, the Department of Music has announced a new program in music technology. The IPFW Sweetwater Music Technology program offers students the chance to learn recording arts, digital sampling, mixing, live sound, and music composition using the latest technologies in IPFW's music technology facility. This unique partnership with one of the country's leading music technology companies allow students to learn at the side of professionals in their field and participate in internships at Sweetwater.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56bc30772eeb81bc2dc70ba9/56c3ef5e859fd092ec1bef6f/56c3efc5859fd092ec1bf230/1455681485275/ipfw-community-orchestra-fort-wayne-indiana-rhinehart-music-auer-hall-7207.jpg)
Auer Performance Hall
This department was really one of the gems of IPFW and I have to wonder what will happen to it when it can no longer offer the IU diploma. I don't even know what kinds of degrees they will be allowed to confer. Right now they offer:
Bachelor of Music Education Choral/General (B.Mus.Ed.)
Bachelor of Music Education Instrumental/General (B.Mus.Ed.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Piano (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Instrumental (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Vocal (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Guitar (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Science in Music Therapy (B.S.M.T.)
Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field Music Technology (B.S.)
Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field (B.S.)
Purdue currently offers no degrees in music and only has a Department of University Bands. If Purdue-Northeast is somehow allowed to continue offering degrees in music, it certainly will suffer a large reduction of applicants because it will no longer be part of the IU School of Music. This was a really stupid move and because arts programs are often overlooked not something they paid much attention to in the impact studies.
Rant over :banghead: Can you tell I was originally a Vocal Performance major at VU before switching to Business...
Frankly, I don't care about a single word in this post. This is a Valpo Basketball forum, I don't want to see a post with a huge picture about Fort Wayne's music program. Sorry to be rude, but this isn't the place for this topic.
Quote from: valpo4life on May 15, 2017, 12:59:01 PM
Quote from: FWalum on May 15, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 15, 2017, 10:29:53 AMTalk about a screwed up mess, the current music and drama areas, now part of the IU program, will next year be run by Purdue...AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A MUSIC PROGRAM IN LAFAYETTE!!
Valpo64 brings up perhaps the most overlooked parts of this whole Purdue takeover. IPFW has an accredited music department that offers degrees from the renowned IU School of Music. Its main facility is the John and Ruth Rhinehart Music Center, a beautiful facility (and expensive) that features the outstanding 1,600-seat Auer Performance Hall and the 250-seat Rhinehart Recital Hall, rehearsal halls, studios, and practice rooms. They offered technical collaboration with Sweetwater Sound, something even IU could not do.QuoteThrough the generous support of Sweetwater Sound Inc, the Department of Music has announced a new program in music technology. The IPFW Sweetwater Music Technology program offers students the chance to learn recording arts, digital sampling, mixing, live sound, and music composition using the latest technologies in IPFW's music technology facility. This unique partnership with one of the country's leading music technology companies allow students to learn at the side of professionals in their field and participate in internships at Sweetwater.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56bc30772eeb81bc2dc70ba9/56c3ef5e859fd092ec1bef6f/56c3efc5859fd092ec1bf230/1455681485275/ipfw-community-orchestra-fort-wayne-indiana-rhinehart-music-auer-hall-7207.jpg)
Auer Performance Hall
This department was really one of the gems of IPFW and I have to wonder what will happen to it when it can no longer offer the IU diploma. I don't even know what kinds of degrees they will be allowed to confer. Right now they offer:
Bachelor of Music Education Choral/General (B.Mus.Ed.)
Bachelor of Music Education Instrumental/General (B.Mus.Ed.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Piano (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Instrumental (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Vocal (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Guitar (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Science in Music Therapy (B.S.M.T.)
Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field Music Technology (B.S.)
Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field (B.S.)
Purdue currently offers no degrees in music and only has a Department of University Bands. If Purdue-Northeast is somehow allowed to continue offering degrees in music, it certainly will suffer a large reduction of applicants because it will no longer be part of the IU School of Music. This was a really stupid move and because arts programs are often overlooked not something they paid much attention to in the impact studies.
Rant over :banghead: Can you tell I was originally a Vocal Performance major at VU before switching to Business...
Frankly, I don't care about a single word in this post. This is a Valpo Basketball forum, I don't want to see a post with a huge picture about Fort Wayne's music program. Sorry to be rude, but this isn't the place for this topic.
I don't have any problem with a non-basketball picture - except - it's a stark reminder of never ending palatial extravagance that continues to elevate the cost of attending college to obscene levels.
Maybe Valpo could agree to take over the music program in Ft Wayne and have immediate expanded facilities and program. Tie-ins with Concordia FW. In today's educational economy, those that think ahead and out of the box will have the advantages. Synergies!
Quote from: valpo84 on May 15, 2017, 04:24:46 PM
Maybe Valpo could agree to take over the music program in Ft Wayne and have immediate expanded facilities and program. Tie-ins with Concordia FW. In today's educational economy, those that think ahead and out of the box will have the advantages. Synergies!
There is absolutely no doubt that music is woven into the fabric of Valpo (except a Pep Band - but that is another discussion). As a religious-based institution, music (in all forms) plays an important role in our culture and our worship. If PNW would be willing to cut out ther entire music program and allow Valpo to operate it in conjunction with Concordia that would expand Valpo's offerings as well as its footprint. The problem, IMO, is the long commute to practice for gifted musicians and voacalists who play, say, football and basketball.
Just kidding of course about the jocks stuff, but the first part of my post holds. Valpo tried to make some inroads into Chicago, if I recall, and maybe moving east to essentially bracket the northern part of the state would not be a bad strategy. Maybe they could buy the performing arts facility for pennies on the dollar. ;)
Quote from: valpo4life on May 15, 2017, 12:59:01 PM
Quote from: FWalum on May 15, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 15, 2017, 10:29:53 AMTalk about a screwed up mess, the current music and drama areas, now part of the IU program, will next year be run by Purdue...AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A MUSIC PROGRAM IN LAFAYETTE!!
Valpo64 brings up perhaps the most overlooked parts of this whole Purdue takeover. IPFW has an accredited music department that offers degrees from the renowned IU School of Music. Its main facility is the John and Ruth Rhinehart Music Center, a beautiful facility (and expensive) that features the outstanding 1,600-seat Auer Performance Hall and the 250-seat Rhinehart Recital Hall, rehearsal halls, studios, and practice rooms. They offered technical collaboration with Sweetwater Sound, something even IU could not do.QuoteThrough the generous support of Sweetwater Sound Inc, the Department of Music has announced a new program in music technology. The IPFW Sweetwater Music Technology program offers students the chance to learn recording arts, digital sampling, mixing, live sound, and music composition using the latest technologies in IPFW's music technology facility. This unique partnership with one of the country's leading music technology companies allow students to learn at the side of professionals in their field and participate in internships at Sweetwater.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56bc30772eeb81bc2dc70ba9/56c3ef5e859fd092ec1bef6f/56c3efc5859fd092ec1bf230/1455681485275/ipfw-community-orchestra-fort-wayne-indiana-rhinehart-music-auer-hall-7207.jpg)
Auer Performance Hall
This department was really one of the gems of IPFW and I have to wonder what will happen to it when it can no longer offer the IU diploma. I don't even know what kinds of degrees they will be allowed to confer. Right now they offer:
Bachelor of Music Education Choral/General (B.Mus.Ed.)
Bachelor of Music Education Instrumental/General (B.Mus.Ed.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Piano (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Instrumental (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Vocal (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Music in Performance Guitar (B.Mus.)
Bachelor of Science in Music Therapy (B.S.M.T.)
Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field Music Technology (B.S.)
Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field (B.S.)
Purdue currently offers no degrees in music and only has a Department of University Bands. If Purdue-Northeast is somehow allowed to continue offering degrees in music, it certainly will suffer a large reduction of applicants because it will no longer be part of the IU School of Music. This was a really stupid move and because arts programs are often overlooked not something they paid much attention to in the impact studies.
Rant over :banghead: Can you tell I was originally a Vocal Performance major at VU before switching to Business...
Frankly, I don't care about a single word in this post. This is a Valpo Basketball forum, I don't want to see a post with a huge picture about Fort Wayne's music program. Sorry to be rude, but this isn't the place for this topic.
Sorry to be rude, but are you incapable of scrolling past a few paragraphs of text?
Lots of fans around the HL often said that Valpo bball hasn't done anything and we think we are better than what we are.
I'll say this,
No one in the current HL will win 5 out of 6 championships setting a scoring margin in the process
No one that the HL pick ups will win 5 out of 6 championships.
We were in the league for 10 years and we won the league half of that time.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 15, 2017, 07:22:48 PM
Lots of fans around the HL often said that Valpo bball hasn't done anything and we think we are better than what we are.
I'll say this,
No one in the current HL will win 5 out of 6 championships setting a scoring margin in the process
No one that the HL pick ups will win 5 out of 6 championships.
We were in the league for 10 years and we won the league half of that time.
Some of it is sour grapes because they know that the most consistently good program in the league is leaving. While Valpo didn't win any tourney games (which is probably why they're saying Valpo hasn't done "anything"), the 2 tourney games that Valpo did qualify for were much closer than the rest of the league's games the last 6 years.
Valpo's been much better the last 5 years especially while the league as a whole has gotten much worse. While winning any regular season league title is a great accomplishment, the next step for Valpo is being able to qualify for the tournament even when you don't win the league tournament. Really hard to do in the current environment, but I think that's ultimately the goal for the school and its new league is to get multiple bids on a consistent basis.
Quote from: VU75 on May 14, 2017, 03:25:04 PMI wonder if the Pioneer League might become an option if a move to the Horizon leaves Robert Morris looking for a football home.
They have a scholarship program so the answer to that is no. They'd likely stay in the NEC in football.
Quote from: valpo4life on May 15, 2017, 12:59:01 PMQuote from: FWalum on May 15, 2017, 12:24:10 PMQuote from: valpo64 on May 15, 2017, 10:29:53 AMTalk about a screwed up mess, the current music and drama areas, now part of the IU program, will next year be run by Purdue...AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A MUSIC PROGRAM IN LAFAYETTE!!
Valpo64 brings up perhaps the most overlooked parts of this whole Purdue takeover. IPFW has an accredited music department that offers degrees from the renowned IU School of Music. Its main facility is the John and Ruth Rhinehart Music Center, a beautiful facility (and expensive) that features the outstanding 1,600-seat Auer Performance Hall and the 250-seat Rhinehart Recital Hall, rehearsal halls, studios, and practice rooms. They offered technical collaboration with Sweetwater Sound, something even IU could not do.QuoteThrough the generous support of Sweetwater Sound Inc, the Department of Music has announced a new program in music technology. The IPFW Sweetwater Music Technology program offers students the chance to learn recording arts, digital sampling, mixing, live sound, and music composition using the latest technologies in IPFW's music technology facility. This unique partnership with one of the country's leading music technology companies allow students to learn at the side of professionals in their field and participate in internships at Sweetwater.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56bc30772eeb81bc2dc70ba9/56c3ef5e859fd092ec1bef6f/56c3efc5859fd092ec1bf230/1455681485275/ipfw-community-orchestra-fort-wayne-indiana-rhinehart-music-auer-hall-7207.jpg) Auer Performance Hall This department was really one of the gems of IPFW and I have to wonder what will happen to it when it can no longer offer the IU diploma. I don't even know what kinds of degrees they will be allowed to confer. Right now they offer: Bachelor of Music Education Choral/General (B.Mus.Ed.) Bachelor of Music Education Instrumental/General (B.Mus.Ed.) Bachelor of Music in Performance Piano (B.Mus.) Bachelor of Music in Performance Instrumental (B.Mus.) Bachelor of Music in Performance Vocal (B.Mus.) Bachelor of Music in Performance Guitar (B.Mus.) Bachelor of Science in Music Therapy (B.S.M.T.) Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field Music Technology (B.S.) Bachelor of Science in Music and an Outside Field (B.S.) Purdue currently offers no degrees in music and only has a Department of University Bands. If Purdue-Northeast is somehow allowed to continue offering degrees in music, it certainly will suffer a large reduction of applicants because it will no longer be part of the IU School of Music. This was a really stupid move and because arts programs are often overlooked not something they paid much attention to in the impact studies. Rant over :banghead: Can you tell I was originally a Vocal Performance major at VU before switching to Business...
Frankly, I don't care about a single word in this post. This is a Valpo Basketball forum, I don't want to see a post with a huge picture about Fort Wayne's music program. Sorry to be rude, but this isn't the place for this topic.
Thank you for sharing.
Quote from: IrishDawg on May 15, 2017, 07:48:13 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 15, 2017, 07:22:48 PM
Lots of fans around the HL often said that Valpo bball hasn't done anything and we think we are better than what we are.
I'll say this,
No one in the current HL will win 5 out of 6 championships setting a scoring margin in the process
No one that the HL pick ups will win 5 out of 6 championships.
We were in the league for 10 years and we won the league half of that time.
Some of it is sour grapes because they know that the most consistently good program in the league is leaving. While Valpo didn't win any tourney games (which is probably why they're saying Valpo hasn't done "anything"), the 2 tourney games that Valpo did qualify for were much closer than the rest of the league's games the last 6 years.
Valpo's been much better the last 5 years especially while the league as a whole has gotten much worse. While winning any regular season league title is a great accomplishment, the next step for Valpo is being able to qualify for the tournament even when you don't win the league tournament. Really hard to do in the current environment, but I think that's ultimately the goal for the school and its new league is to get multiple bids on a consistent basis.
Some in the VU community are mighty self assured for winning 2x in the previous millennium. That being said, I'd rather be VU than any other HL program at this time. That's not cocky, just the facts as I see them.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 15, 2017, 07:22:48 PM
Lots of fans around the HL often said that Valpo bball hasn't done anything and we think we are better than what we are.
I'll say this,
No one in the current HL will win 5 out of 6 championships setting a scoring margin in the process
No one that the HL pick ups will win 5 out of 6 championships.
We were in the league for 10 years and we won the league half of that time.
Good points. Sadly, as Valpo elevated its program, the rest of the HL teams slid backwards. Too bad they couldn't leverage Valpo's success to improve their own programs.
Quote from: EddieCabot on May 15, 2017, 09:21:07 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 15, 2017, 07:22:48 PM
Lots of fans around the HL often said that Valpo bball hasn't done anything and we think we are better than what we are.
I'll say this,
No one in the current HL will win 5 out of 6 championships setting a scoring margin in the process
No one that the HL pick ups will win 5 out of 6 championships.
We were in the league for 10 years and we won the league half of that time.
Good points. Sadly, as Valpo elevated its program, the rest of the HL teams slid backwards. Too bad they couldn't leverage Valpo's success to improve their own programs.
Not only that but they didn't leverage Butler's success in its years in the HL. Was a massive failure of LeCrone and the HL Office. Should have looked towards expansion even before Butlers runs.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 15, 2017, 08:22:13 AMI thought Chicago St. would be a realistic candidate and great travel partner for UIC. The financial and academic situation is too big of a risk. How do they afford the WAC?
Chicago State only has a five year contract with the WAC which runs out June 2018. CSU really hasn't lived up to the contract that called for them to add men's soccer, address some safety issues and make a number of other other specified upgrades. There is a chance the WAC could vote to extend the contract or they could just let it expire.
Quote from: FWalum on May 15, 2017, 12:24:10 PMCan you tell I was originally a Vocal Performance major at VU before switching to Business...
Can you put up an MP3 of one of your vocal performances before I decide? ;)
Quote from: valpo84 on May 15, 2017, 04:24:46 PM
Maybe Valpo could agree to take over the music program in Ft Wayne and have immediate expanded facilities and program. Tie-ins with Concordia FW. In today's educational economy, those that think ahead and out of the box will have the advantages. Synergies!
Lol. The thought of the Fort Wayne seminary doing anything in conjunction with Valpo would certainly be a sign of the apocalypse. If memory serves, they refuse to accept applicants with Valpo theology degrees. I believe Valpo students are told to study classics and Greek/Hebrew but avoid letting the heretics in the VU Theology faculty pollute their minds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Uh...back to the thread topic....
The Horizon footprint now makes it a fully Ohio-centric conference. They are a mini-MAC in geography and the Wisconsins must hate it.
I wish them well, but the two Indianas and Western Illinois are the only ones that really fit the Horizon now and they would love to come aboard. They would round out minor sports travel to Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana and notch 12 teams. The Horizon name is goofy. They should go with "Great Lakes"
So dittos from me to the WH post from pages ago on those three.
Vive le Crone!
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 16, 2017, 12:26:59 PM
Uh...back to the thread topic....
The Horizon footprint now makes it a fully Ohio-centric conference. They are a mini-MAC in geography and the Wisconsins must hate it.
I wish them well, but the two Indianas and Western Illinois are the only ones that really fit the Horizon now and they would love to come aboard. They would round out minor sports travel to Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana and notch 12 teams. The Horizon name is goofy. They should go with "Great Lakes"
So dittos from me to the WH post from pages ago on those three.
Vive le Crone!
Agreed lets get back on topic!
Problem with IUPUI is that aren't that good at basketball and don't have baseball, which hurts their chances. IPFW seems like the most likely Indiana school to get an invite because they have baseball and I'm sure if they get the invite, LeCrone will "tout" their win against IU in the press conference. Their athletics are pretty brutal.
Western Illinois wouldn't be a good add. They are clearly a football school and would be the Illinois version of YSU but with more budgetary concerns.
If I had to guess Omaha, Robert Morris, & IPFW will all be in serious consideration. I'm sure they want Belmont and may reach out to Murray State but will get shot down.
New Mexico State is starting to get serious traction on the HL board. From what I can tell, they have 2 reasons:
1- they've made the tournament 5 of the last 6 years.
2- geography doesn't matter.
From any sane perspective both of these arguments are poor. They made the tournament because the WAC is terrible and travel to and from Las Cruces, while not as bad as Southern Utah back in the MidCon days, is a pain. Additionally, NMSU is presumably looking for a long term home for all of its sports, including football. Even if they join, it will be a temporary partnership.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: VU2014 on May 16, 2017, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 16, 2017, 12:26:59 PM
Uh...back to the thread topic....
The Horizon footprint now makes it a fully Ohio-centric conference. They are a mini-MAC in geography and the Wisconsins must hate it.
I wish them well, but the two Indianas and Western Illinois are the only ones that really fit the Horizon now and they would love to come aboard. They would round out minor sports travel to Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana and notch 12 teams. The Horizon name is goofy. They should go with "Great Lakes"
So dittos from me to the WH post from pages ago on those three.
Vive le Crone!
Agreed lets get back on topic!
Problem with IUPUI is that aren't that good at basketball and don't have baseball, which hurts their chances. IPFW seems like the most likely Indiana school to get an invite because they have baseball and I'm sure if they get the invite, LeCrone will "tout" their win against IU in the press conference. Their athletics are pretty brutal.
Western Illinois wouldn't be a good add. They are clearly a football school and would be the Illinois version of YSU but with more budgetary concerns.
If I had to guess Omaha, Robert Morris, & IPFW will all be in serious consideration. I'm sure they want Belmont and may reach out to Murray State but will get shot down.
If Robert Morris is their answer then things have hit a new low. They play D1 Hockey and Lacrosse, neither of which are offered by the Horizon and don't play baseball, Cross Country, Swimming and Diving, Tennis or Track and Field, in Men's sports. Their basketball stinks. They lost to YSU last year, on their home court, in front of an amazing crowd of 792. They got drilled by Oakland, also on their home floor in front of...are you ready for this...638.
Quote from: vu72 on May 16, 2017, 02:22:23 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on May 16, 2017, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 16, 2017, 12:26:59 PM
Uh...back to the thread topic....
The Horizon footprint now makes it a fully Ohio-centric conference. They are a mini-MAC in geography and the Wisconsins must hate it.
I wish them well, but the two Indianas and Western Illinois are the only ones that really fit the Horizon now and they would love to come aboard. They would round out minor sports travel to Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana and notch 12 teams. The Horizon name is goofy. They should go with "Great Lakes"
So dittos from me to the WH post from pages ago on those three.
Vive le Crone!
Agreed lets get back on topic!
Problem with IUPUI is that aren't that good at basketball and don't have baseball, which hurts their chances. IPFW seems like the most likely Indiana school to get an invite because they have baseball and I'm sure if they get the invite, LeCrone will "tout" their win against IU in the press conference. Their athletics are pretty brutal.
Western Illinois wouldn't be a good add. They are clearly a football school and would be the Illinois version of YSU but with more budgetary concerns.
If I had to guess Omaha, Robert Morris, & IPFW will all be in serious consideration. I'm sure they want Belmont and may reach out to Murray State but will get shot down.
If Robert Morris is their answer then things have hit a new low. They play D1 Hockey and Lacrosse, neither of which are offered by the Horizon and don't play baseball, Cross Country, Swimming and Diving, Tennis or Track and Field, in Men's sports. Their basketball stinks. They lost to YSU last year, on their home court, in front of an amazing crowd of 792. They got drilled by Oakland, also on their home floor in front of...are you ready for this...638.
An Oakland Reporter mentioned that his sources told him Robert Morris is under serious consideration from HL HQ. Definitely agree there are issues with them. The Basketball has been bad lately but they've had past success and they are fairly close to YSU. The HL is starting to move East.
Quote from: VU2014 on May 16, 2017, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 16, 2017, 02:22:23 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on May 16, 2017, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 16, 2017, 12:26:59 PM
Uh...back to the thread topic....
The Horizon footprint now makes it a fully Ohio-centric conference. They are a mini-MAC in geography and the Wisconsins must hate it.
I wish them well, but the two Indianas and Western Illinois are the only ones that really fit the Horizon now and they would love to come aboard. They would round out minor sports travel to Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana and notch 12 teams. The Horizon name is goofy. They should go with "Great Lakes"
So dittos from me to the WH post from pages ago on those three.
Vive le Crone!
Agreed lets get back on topic!
Problem with IUPUI is that aren't that good at basketball and don't have baseball, which hurts their chances. IPFW seems like the most likely Indiana school to get an invite because they have baseball and I'm sure if they get the invite, LeCrone will "tout" their win against IU in the press conference. Their athletics are pretty brutal.
Western Illinois wouldn't be a good add. They are clearly a football school and would be the Illinois version of YSU but with more budgetary concerns.
If I had to guess Omaha, Robert Morris, & IPFW will all be in serious consideration. I'm sure they want Belmont and may reach out to Murray State but will get shot down.
If Robert Morris is their answer then things have hit a new low. They play D1 Hockey and Lacrosse, neither of which are offered by the Horizon and don't play baseball, Cross Country, Swimming and Diving, Tennis or Track and Field, in Men's sports. Their basketball stinks. They lost to YSU last year, on their home court, in front of an amazing crowd of 792. They got drilled by Oakland, also on their home floor in front of...are you ready for this...638.
An Oakland Reporter mentioned that his sources told him Robert Morris is under serious consideration from HL HQ. Definitely agree there are issues with them. The Basketball has been bad lately but they've had past success and they are fairly close to YSU. The HL is starting to move East.
I am beginning to suspect that they may have their Robert Morris' confused. Perhaps, from there it took on a life of its own, so now it has become fact, based off of the original report being confused or downright wrong. I have not seen one big reporter reporting this...
For me, the Horizon has to be proactive here and add Omaha, two others...I like the idea of U of Southern Indiana...hopefully they are looking to move up to D-I, but they have been talking about moving up for years...
You understand Omaha would not choose the HL over the SL.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 16, 2017, 06:19:38 PM
You understand Omaha would not choose the HL over the SL.
I'm not going to argue it...I just remembered that I don't care...HL is in the past, the MVC is the future. Also, it does not help that I am REALLY tired and I don't really remember typing that...I may have meant UMKC... :o
Quote from: cornonthe on May 16, 2017, 06:32:20 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 16, 2017, 06:19:38 PM
You understand Omaha would not choose the HL over the SL.
I'm not going to argue it...I just remembered that I don't care...HL is in the past, the MVC is the future. Also, it does not help that I am REALLY tired and I don't really remember typing that...I may have meant UMKC... :o
Do you remember your pledge of $15M for ARC renovations? It was so gracious. MLB would like to get your cell phone number. ;D
Quote from: bbtds on May 16, 2017, 10:24:45 PM
Quote from: cornonthe on May 16, 2017, 06:32:20 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 16, 2017, 06:19:38 PM
You understand Omaha would not choose the HL over the SL.
I'm not going to argue it...I just remembered that I don't care...HL is in the past, the MVC is the future. Also, it does not help that I am REALLY tired and I don't really remember typing that...I may have meant UMKC... :o
Do you remember your pledge of $15M for ARC renovations? It was so gracious. MLB would like to get your cell phone number. ;D
I believe MLB would be greatly saddened by the actual amount in my bank account... :'( :'( :'(
YSU coaches wait on Valpo, league to finish scheduling
"The Penguins already have Butler, DePaul and Utah State on the schedule as guaranteed games. YSU receives $85,000 for playing Butler and DePaul and $90,000 for Utah State."
http://www.tribtoday.com/sports/ysu-sports/2017/05/ysu-coaches-wait-on-valpo-league-to-finish-scheduling/
Quote"What I think is going to happen, and I'm completely against it, but just talking to some of the guys in the league, we're going to be stuck playing non-Division Is. I hate to say it."
The hope is that after Valparaiso makes its move official, the Horizon League moves quickly to secure a 10th team.
They know Valpo is leaving and have known since the invite was extended AND the Horizon League should have been prepared for this for a few years now since its been blatantly apparent Wichita State wanted to leave the MVC since Creighton left.
Plus they ALL know that Valpo will accept once Baseball is finished up. They've had time to prepare for this.
The ball is LeCrone's court to lead his Conference and inform his coaches on the best way to proceed. I'm shocked (or not) he hasn't informed coaches if they will at least make a strong push to add 1 member.
YSU's been a complete RPI anchor for the entire HL since they joined, and they're complaining about having to wait a few weeks to finish up scheduling and having to possibly schedule a few non-D1s? Know thyself, Penguins...
The HL anguish could be instantly lifted and scheduling could be done immediately with just one action from the league: waive the lame duck provision for VU baseball and move on.
Why do I get the feeling that Valpo feels no remorse about keeping the Horizon League hanging?
QuoteThe HL anguish could be instantly lifted and scheduling could be done immediately with just one action from the league: waive the lame duck provision for VU baseball and move on.
Yeah, that was my other thought. The HL is obviously looking to retain that leverage during exit negotiations, which is fine and their right to do so. But then don't go complaining about how the exit process is being dragged out and is delaying "scheduling." Complain to LeCrone. This could have been wrapped up before lunchtime on May 9 if HL members wanted to move forward that badly. (Also, the league all knows we're leaving at this point. If the HL hasn't communicated privately their gameplan to remaining members whether they'll seek to add a 10th team or not in time for next season, well, that uncertainty isn't on Valpo at this point.)
I'll also note that perhaps if YSU hoops wasn't such a trash fire, maybe you wouldn't have had *three* HL members jumping at the first opportunity to leave in the past five years. (I mean, they're bragging about taking a guarantee game
from a team that was a conference rival just five years ago, like that's a good thing).
It goes to show you where the vu program is and where the ysu program lays. Ysu is a pay game for Utah state and VU is a conference challenge game.
I remember ML stating that he and LeCrone have been friends for very long time. On union street hoops, ML had lunch with lecrone the day after taking the Vu job.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on May 17, 2017, 01:19:38 PM(I mean, they're bragging about taking a guarantee game from a team that was a conference rival just five years ago, like that's a good thing).
It is Butler. In my mind Butler has jumped 2 levels in those five years from the mid-major level they were at in the Horizon League. They may have obnoxious fans and they are totally turning their backs on Valpo because they are afraid to lose to the Crusaders but they are a team on a different level altogether.
Quote from: bbtds on May 17, 2017, 07:19:52 PM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on May 17, 2017, 01:19:38 PM(I mean, they're bragging about taking a guarantee game from a team that was a conference rival just five years ago, like that's a good thing).
It is Butler. In my mind Butler has jumped 2 levels in those five years from the mid-major level they were at in the Horizon League. They may have obnoxious fans and they are totally turning their backs on Valpo because they are afraid to lose to the Crusaders but they are a team on a different level altogether.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dEu5kSzrzvc/TcmVQAGwDmI/AAAAAAAAAdQ/ekWtfEss8-A/s1600/airplane.png)
"They are a team on a different level." ;D
Quote from: talksalot on May 12, 2017, 12:58:27 PM
another Summit school to discuss for the HL... Western Illinois... have baseball. What am I missing?
"You can't get there from here." -- RLH
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 17, 2017, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: talksalot on May 12, 2017, 12:58:27 PM
another Summit school to discuss for the HL... Western Illinois... have baseball. What am I missing?
"You can't get there from here." -- RLH
Yes. Made that trip to from Indy to Macomb a couple of times. Great drive, if you love two-lane roads surrounded by cornfields.
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 17, 2017, 08:56:14 PM
Quote from: bbtds on May 17, 2017, 07:19:52 PM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on May 17, 2017, 01:19:38 PM(I mean, they're bragging about taking a guarantee game from a team that was a conference rival just five years ago, like that's a good thing).
It is Butler. In my mind Butler has jumped 2 levels in those five years from the mid-major level they were at in the Horizon League. They may have obnoxious fans and they are totally turning their backs on Valpo because they are afraid to lose to the Crusaders but they are a team on a different level altogether.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dEu5kSzrzvc/TcmVQAGwDmI/AAAAAAAAAdQ/ekWtfEss8-A/s1600/airplane.png)
"They are a team on a different level." ;D
We goodness sake, DON'T encourage it!!! >:(
From the Wright State board:
Quote
"Who's to say Oakland and Northern Kentucky -- two programs on the rise with much better facilities than Valpo, won't be better basketball programs than Valpo 3-5 years from now, or even sooner? And those programs were the two most recent members to join. Just not seeing all the doom and gloom about Valpo leaving.
Frankly, the problem is with longstanding members like Cleveland State, Detroit and UIC not pulling their weight or even close. Could anyone really argue against that? If those 3 programs from major cities could get their act together, this wouldn't even be an issue. Period. Instead, they are 3 of the worst programs in the country."
After 10 years in the league, it amazes me how many people still don't get how insignificant the "facilities" factor is in determining program success. Moreover, anyone who would choose to join one family over another based on who has the fanciest house is not the type of individual we're looking for.
This is a lot of talk about a conference that we will be done with by July 1st. I understand that there is a big tendency to look back and we have done a lot of that with the Mid-Con/Summit but none of it really mattered except for a few OOC games.
Kampe and Valpo will always have a "special" relationship.
Quote from: historyman on May 18, 2017, 08:01:42 AM
This is a lot of talk about a conference that we will be done with by July 1st. I understand that there is a big tendency to look back and we have done a lot of that with the Mid-Con/Summit but none of it really mattered except for a few OOC games.
Kampe and Valpo will always have a "special" relationship.
The MVC and HL could be potentially be "competing" for future members over the next year or two, so the HL's actions do potentially impact the MVC and I think is something worthy of discussion.
The Facilities topic is so overdone when it comes to being competitive in college sports. They can have their Facilities, and I will take our titles...
Quote from: VU2014 on May 18, 2017, 11:10:19 AM
Quote from: historyman on May 18, 2017, 08:01:42 AM
This is a lot of talk about a conference that we will be done with by July 1st. I understand that there is a big tendency to look back and we have done a lot of that with the Mid-Con/Summit but none of it really mattered except for a few OOC games.
Kampe and Valpo will always have a "special" relationship.
The MVC and HL could be potentially be "competing" for future members over the next year or two, so the HL's actions do potentially impact the MVC and I think is something worthy of discussion.
Well then, let's talk about Middle Tennessee and why C-USA is lucky to have them. I just feel there is something Em(p)-ty about the discussion.
Quote from: historyman on May 18, 2017, 02:54:55 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on May 18, 2017, 11:10:19 AM
Quote from: historyman on May 18, 2017, 08:01:42 AM
This is a lot of talk about a conference that we will be done with by July 1st. I understand that there is a big tendency to look back and we have done a lot of that with the Mid-Con/Summit but none of it really mattered except for a few OOC games.
Kampe and Valpo will always have a "special" relationship.
The MVC and HL could be potentially be "competing" for future members over the next year or two, so the HL's actions do potentially impact the MVC and I think is something worthy of discussion.
Well then, let's talk about Middle Tennessee and why C-USA is lucky to have them. I just feel there is something Em(p)-ty about the discussion.
Oh, I get it! M-T! Empty! Middle Tenn.
For many people (myself included) there is something cathartic about taking time to reflect on the past before focusing on the future. The Horizon League will become a distant memory soon enough.
HL is going to live-stream a press-conference to address Valpo leaving the Conference if you want to tune in.
https://www.facebook.com/HorizonLeague/
https://twitter.com/HorizonLeague/status/867799930068504576
Quote from: wh on May 18, 2017, 05:53:14 PM
For many people (myself included) there is something cathartic about taking time to reflect on the past before focusing on the future. The Horizon League will become a distant memory soon enough.
Catharsis officially over. The icing on the cake was the LeCrone response to a question asking if Valpo's teams would have been at risk of being excluded from their respective post season tournaments. He called the MVC invitation "untimely" and said the HL office and Valpo had discussed the best way to keep Valpo from being excluded.
Let's be clear. The HL has a clearly defined procedure for exiting the conference. It calls for a 2-year notice, and payment of a substantial financial penalty for leaving sooner. That's it. There is no reference in the bi-laws about being suspended from post season play after an announcement. The only way the league could exclude Valpo is if the other programs decided to vote to do so. He either knew or strongly suspected that the other members would do exactly that.
That tells me all I need to know about the Horizon League. They're burning bridges with Valpo, just like they did with Butler. Going forward, there should be no OOC games with any HL school, including teacher's pet Oakland.
Now that I have this off my chest, this is my dead last post about anything related to the Horizon League.
Quote from: wh on May 25, 2017, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: wh on May 18, 2017, 05:53:14 PM
For many people (myself included) there is something cathartic about taking time to reflect on the past before focusing on the future. The Horizon League will become a distant memory soon enough.
Catharsis officially over. The icing on the cake was the LeCrone response to a question asking if Valpo's teams would have been at risk of being excluded from their respective post season tournaments. He called the MVC invitation "untimely" and said the HL office and Valpo had discussed the best way to keep Valpo from being excluded.
Let's be clear. The HL has a clearly defined procedure for exiting the conference. It calls for a 2-year notice, and payment of a substantial financial penalty for leaving sooner. That's it. There is no reference in the bi-laws about being suspended from post season play after an announcement. The only way the league could exclude Valpo is if the other programs decided to vote to do so. He either knew or strongly suspected that the other members would do exactly that.
That tells me all I need to know about the Horizon League. They're burning bridges with Valpo, just like they did with Butler. Going forward, there should be no OOC games with any HL school, including teacher's pet Oakland.
Now that I have this off my chest, this is my dead last post about anything related to the Horizon League.
😃 NFW, WH. I give you maybe a week. Ha, ha.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 25, 2017, 08:30:40 PM
Quote from: wh on May 25, 2017, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: wh on May 18, 2017, 05:53:14 PM
For many people (myself included) there is something cathartic about taking time to reflect on the past before focusing on the future. The Horizon League will become a distant memory soon enough.
Catharsis officially over. The icing on the cake was the LeCrone response to a question asking if Valpo's teams would have been at risk of being excluded from their respective post season tournaments. He called the MVC invitation "untimely" and said the HL office and Valpo had discussed the best way to keep Valpo from being excluded.
Let's be clear. The HL has a clearly defined procedure for exiting the conference. It calls for a 2-year notice, and payment of a substantial financial penalty for leaving sooner. That's it. There is no reference in the bi-laws about being suspended from post season play after an announcement. The only way the league could exclude Valpo is if the other programs decided to vote to do so. He either knew or strongly suspected that the other members would do exactly that.
That tells me all I need to know about the Horizon League. They're burning bridges with Valpo, just like they did with Butler. Going forward, there should be no OOC games with any HL school, including teacher's pet Oakland.
Now that I have this off my chest, this is my dead last post about anything related to the Horizon League.
😃 NFW, WH. I give you maybe a week. Ha, ha.
I'm going to be in Playa from the end of June till Sept. - kind of a working vacation. If I can make it till then, it will become much easier to forget about the HL (and most everything else up here for that matter). ;)
so, that's 1 post about the HL after the last one.
but who's counting? EVERYONE! Enjoy Playa...
Quote from: wh on May 25, 2017, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: wh on May 18, 2017, 05:53:14 PM
For many people (myself included) there is something cathartic about taking time to reflect on the past before focusing on the future. The Horizon League will become a distant memory soon enough.
Catharsis officially over. The icing on the cake was the LeCrone response to a question asking if Valpo's teams would have been at risk of being excluded from their respective post season tournaments. He called the MVC invitation "untimely" and said the HL office and Valpo had discussed the best way to keep Valpo from being excluded.
Let's be clear. The HL has a clearly defined procedure for exiting the conference. It calls for a 2-year notice, and payment of a substantial financial penalty for leaving sooner. That's it. There is no reference in the bi-laws about being suspended from post season play after an announcement. The only way the league could exclude Valpo is if the other programs decided to vote to do so. He either knew or strongly suspected that the other members would do exactly that.
That tells me all I need to know about the Horizon League. They're burning bridges with Valpo, just like they did with Butler. Going forward, there should be no OOC games with any HL school, including teacher's pet Oakland.
Now that I have this off my chest, this is my dead last post about anything related to the Horizon League.
Very well stated by wh. Valpo's move to the MVC will give them ample OOC opportunities that stretch well beyond Horizon League teams. As I've stated many times, much of the scheduling process is based on relationships between the schools, and as wh points out, the HL schools burned bridges with Valpo and Butler when they left (and continue to do so). This explains why I don't believe a Valpo-Butler matchup will happen anytime soon. When you have 300+ schools you can play in your handful of OOC games, why would you play a school who went out of their way to make your departure from their league as difficult as possible?
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on May 17, 2017, 01:19:38 PM
I'll also note that perhaps if YSU hoops wasn't such a trash fire, maybe you wouldn't have had *three* HL members jumping at the first opportunity to leave in the past five years. (I mean, they're bragging about taking a guarantee game from a team that was a conference rival just five years ago, like that's a good thing).
Honest question for you ... how is YSU taking a buy game at Butler any worse than Valpo taking a buy game at Northwestern?
The key difference is that Valpo has not been in any conference alongside Northwestern and therefore was never a "peer" institution; while Butler was in the same conference as Youngstown State just five short years ago. The implication is that they were at roughly the same level by their conference affiliation (although they were not on nearly the same level as programs despite this fact) just a short time ago, and now are getting paid like some low-major opponent with no chance to win against the Bulldogs to come to play a team they used to play home and home not long ago as conference foes. It's both a testament to what Butler has accomplished in such a short time through their commitment to their basketball program and shows where Youngstown State is as a program and its general attitude toward hoops (which isn't surprising since it's clearly a football school.) His point about teams like Youngstown State being a major reason why so many teams are looking to exit the Horizon League makes a great deal of sense. This was a league that used to be in the top 12 in the nation and its teams were once in the at large conversation come tournament time. That's no longer true, and that is why teams like Butler Loyola and Valpo have left and why teams like UIC and Milwaukee are trying to leave.
The city of Fort Wayne is building a new arena costing over $100 million. I wonder if this will help the Horizon League come to a conclusion that IPFW would be a good add, especially since I believe they need an Indiana team? Interestingly, the $100 million-plus facility would only seat 5,600, not a lot more than the ARC! Design and illustrations at link: http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/34525720/design-plans-revealed-for-fort-wayne-events-center (http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/34525720/design-plans-revealed-for-fort-wayne-events-center)
IPFW is already a good add. The Horizon League's footprint is shifting East and they have a school (Wright State) that is in a good deal of financial trouble. Their job now that Valpo's gone should be to protect their new bellwether programs in Northern Kentucky and Oakland as well as try to protect Wright State financially and stoke greater interest in Youngstown State by minimizing travel costs and adding closer teams(Robert Morris IUPUI and IPFW would be my leading candidates in a sane universe where footprint matters I think adding Denver New Mexico State and Grand Canyon is just a foolhardy notion. They'd be more likely to join the Summit or the West Coast Conference than the Horizon League. The Western part of the Horizon League will be swallowed up by the Missouri Valley in fairly short order in all likelihood. I can foresee a day where both Milwaukee and UIC are Valley members (as long as they continue to improve). However, if my memory serves, the Summit League has already outperformed the Horizon League in two of the past three seasons and that was BEFORE Valpo departed. How much worse will it get now? They have to act on Summit League teams immediately before the gulf between the two leagues widens to the point where teams like IPFW, IUPUI, and Western Illinois don't deem the hit in competition worth the travel savings of joining the Horizon. LeCrone's inability to act in a timely manner following Valpo's departure may cost him his best chance of saving his league. This is, of course, good for us because that means that they may be forced to look at the OVC for teams to help placate Northern Kentucky (Morehead State and Eastern Kentucky would be strong candidates in this case), which decreases the stability of that league and makes Belmont more likely to entertain a jump to the MVC pushing us further toward multi-bid status. Fun fact, I heard several weeks ago on that Murray State podcast that the Eastern Division of the OVC (Where Belmont is) actually outperformed the Horizon league in the Sagarin ratings. Granted, Belmont had a big say in that, but that's still a real black eye for a once great mid major league. I wonder if all of this realignment and shuffling will eventually result in conference mergers. I can't decide whether that would be good or bad for mid-major basketball if mergers were to occur.
Very telling that there is more discussion of Horizon League expansion on this board then on any of the other Horizon boards.
There may be a reason why we're going to a league that averages 4000-5000 fans a night (I hope we're able to contribute well to that I don't think averaging 4000 a night is out of the question for VU this year) and they're busy courting teams that average 1000-2000.
Quote from: valpopal on May 28, 2017, 09:43:36 AM
The city of Fort Wayne is building a new arena costing over $100 million. I wonder if this will help the Horizon League come to a conclusion that IPFW would be a good add, especially since I believe they need an Indiana team? Interestingly, the $100 million-plus facility would only seat 5,600, not a lot more than the ARC! Design and illustrations at link: http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/34525720/design-plans-revealed-for-fort-wayne-events-center (http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/34525720/design-plans-revealed-for-fort-wayne-events-center)
Not to focus on facilities (yeah, it seems like it always comes up in one form or another), but based on the Ft. Wayne arena, we now know what it would take to build a new Valpo arena (and still not gain much seating). To me, that closes the book on any new arena discussion and supports ARC renovation and north wall expansion.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 28, 2017, 02:43:12 PMnoth wall expansion.
I heard the Good Wife faced a lot of issues from the noth wall.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nGsyheCrfT0/VhGQeKm9cAI/AAAAAAAAAcQ/-r48NMdNHuU/s1600/keeps_peter_in_place.jpg)
An interesting article diagnosing why the MVC didn't chose Omaha. Their Athletics budget is out of control. Looks like they may have been way too aggressive in making the leap to D1 and going out and putting the school in debt on that brand new stadium (dual facility for Hockey & Basketball/Volleyball).
With Omaha's budget in a mess I'm not sure LeCrone will get to land Omaha unless they bring down the entry fee for them if the University Presidents agree to invite them. No secret LeCrone has targeted UNO the last few years as a potential addition to the HL. If UNO were to leave the Summit it would cost them a $1 million exit fee and whatever the entry-fee is for the HL is now days. Its was $800k+ for Oakland back in 2013, not to mention they would likely have to increase there basketball budget to remain competitive with the rest of the HL schools.
Worth a read.
https://twitter.com/PaulSuellentrop/status/868947298839130112
http://www.omaha.com/news/education/uno-looks-at-cuts-fee-increases-wage-freezes-to-balance/article_13e7f7a4-196c-5d28-abd3-9e958b2b7d02.html
UNO looks at cuts, fee increases, wage freezes to balance athletic budget after move to Division I
By Rick Ruggles / World-Herald staff writer May 28, 2017
Quote from: valpopal on May 28, 2017, 09:43:36 AM
The city of Fort Wayne is building a new arena costing over $100 million. I wonder if this will help the Horizon League come to a conclusion that IPFW would be a good add, especially since I believe they need an Indiana team? Interestingly, the $100 million-plus facility would only seat 5,600, not a lot more than the ARC! Design and illustrations at link: http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/34525720/design-plans-revealed-for-fort-wayne-events-center (http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/34525720/design-plans-revealed-for-fort-wayne-events-center)
This seems like a terribly fiscally irresponsible move by the City of Fort Wayne.
$100 million-plus facility would only seat 5,600 Seems like a EPICALLY TERRIBLE IDEA!They likely won't recoup that money for a very long time if ever.
If this happens then you know where the next Horizon League Tourney site will be if LeCrone is still around...
So they are building this stadium for the a D-League team (that averages generously a 1,800 fans) and a future arena football team that doesn't exist yet? Maybe the IPFW basketball that struggles with attendance as is and the IPFW is struggling finically and there has been whispers of the board considering going D2 in sports to save $. This seems like a horrendous idea of a project and if I were a Fort Wayne citizen I would be emailing and calling the Mayor and City Council about this.
They already have a 13,000 seat arena. Why a new smaller one?
Sounds like the Horizon League is going to spend a year with only nine teams,AND NO INDIANA SCHOOL despite the offices being located in Indianapolis, but they've got a robust strategic plan for expansion in the future I tell you. Didn't we hear this same song and dance when Butler left and when Loyola left and so on... Where is this "Grand Plan" and when is it going to be implemented, Mr LeCrone? Delayed action has now cost him three programs and could cost him more in the future. With realignment only expected to pick up in future years, and schools both within the Horizon League and on their candidate list rumored to be in financial trouble I really think that the stability of the league is a legitimate concern for its members and that they should all probably have their own exit strategies in order in case LeCrone's plan goes bad. I just find it inexcusable that four years ago when Creighton left the MVC, the conference visited three Horizon League schools and took one; and then, when Wichita State leaves, they visit two Horizon League schools and take one, and all LeCrone has to show for that is Northern Kentucky. Yes, the Norse have been a good add, but I expected him to have a better strategy lined up to add at least one team to get back to ten for this year in light of the fact that the Horizon League seems to be where the MVC goes to get new teams; and in light of the fact that everyone knew Wichita State was looking to leave soon and that Valpo was a leading candidate to join the Valley if they did. I fear it may only be a matter of time before 1. The Horizon League becomes a stronger version of the Ohio Valley Conference without Murray State and Belmont, or 2. The better Horizon League teams all hightail it to the Summit League or some other conference or a merger with the Summit is made. http://www.tribtoday.com/sports/sport-columns/2017/05/change-on-horizon-after-valpo-exit/ (http://www.tribtoday.com/sports/sport-columns/2017/05/change-on-horizon-after-valpo-exit/)
QuoteIPFW is already a good add. The Horizon League's footprint is shifting East and they have a school (Wright State) that is in a good deal of financial trouble. Their job now that Valpo's gone should be to protect their new bellwether programs in Northern Kentucky and Oakland as well as try to protect Wright State financially and stoke greater interest in Youngstown State by minimizing travel costs and adding closer teams(Robert Morris IUPUI and IPFW would be my leading candidates in a sane universe where footprint matters I think adding Denver New Mexico State and Grand Canyon is just a foolhardy notion.
How far has the Horizon League fallen that one of the bellwether programs is a school that been D1 for 2 years (NKU), wow. I don't disagree they are one of the schools with the brighter futures in the League but its just pretty sad to see.
I completely agree that adding Western Teams: Denver, New Mexico State and Grand Canyon, would be a terrible move for the league. It would tolerable travel for the bread-winning sports like basketball but the travel costs for sending the Non-Revenue sports out west would intolerable, imo. Denver's Basketball budget is over $3M, which a massive chunk of it budget goes to travel because they have to fly every where in Summit League. It made me sick to my stomach when I heard LeCrone was seriously considering New Mexico State last summer & apparently they are still under consideration.
I agree that it would be wise for the HL to start moving East. I were Detroit-Mercy I would would be doing everything possible to try and move into the MAAC (all private eastern school Conference). I'm not sure the MAAC would want them considering they'd stretch the Conference fairly West for them but they match the private school profile and they aren't too far away from Canisius College which is located in Buffulo (a little over a 4 hour bus ride, but pretty far from every other school). Seems unlikely but you never know. The MAAC is super tight because those schools love being in a conference together from academics and geographic standpoint.
QuoteThe Western part of the Horizon League will be swallowed up by the Missouri Valley in fairly short order in all likelihood. I can foresee a day where both Milwaukee and UIC are Valley members (as long as they continue to improve).
I could possibly see this happening if the basketball product significantly improves and shows that they can consistently over the course of 4-10yr window prove to be a consistently good program. Both program hired new coaches and are hoping to turn it around. Steve McClain can recruit the hell out of players but he's not exactly an X's & O's savant or great game manager. They should be a much better team next season and should start winning. Milwaukee hired a pretty good coach but they are much further behind in their rebuild and have a lot to prove still and further to go.
As for UIC they don't exactly a great academic overall in their men's athletics. Their Men's basketball team had 945 APR rating for the 2014-2015 season... (not so hot). Their women's side of athletics seems to score much higher then their men's programs. Not a single men's APR rating for the year of 2014-2015 scored above 977...
And we all know UWM has struggled with their academics in their Athletics. Men's Basketball was suspended from postseason play very recently.
Both schools have a lot of work to prove they can become more attractive potential members in my opinion and need prove in men's basketball over the course of a few years and once they get better you have to wonder how quickly they lose their coaches to bigger gigs. Can they retain their coaches if they start have success. UIC already lost their top recruiting assistant to the Illini staff (he was a huge part of the recruits they land the last few years because he use to be a very influential coach in the Chicago AAU leagues (a notorious shady operation. It's pretty well known that some coaches get paid $$$ under the table for sending their players to certain schools...)
QuoteHowever, if my memory serves, the Summit League has already outperformed the Horizon League in two of the past three seasons and that was BEFORE Valpo departed. How much worse will it get now? They have to act on Summit League teams immediately before the gulf between the two leagues widens to the point where teams like IPFW, IUPUI, and Western Illinois don't deem the hit in competition worth the travel savings of joining the Horizon.
I still think the Horizon League is going to be a better league then the Summit League long-term as long as the schools can retain their coaches at high % and Cleveland State & YSU can get up off their @$$ and start doing their part. I was not a fan of the CSU hire (retread older HC for low $) but the YSU has a better chance of getting going if their administration would start supporting the BBall program. YSU is a Football school and always will be and especially with Tressel and Pelini at the helm.
QuoteLeCrone's inability to act in a timely manner following Valpo's departure may cost him his best chance of saving his league. This is, of course, good for us because that means that they may be forced to look at the OVC for teams to help placate Northern Kentucky (Morehead State and Eastern Kentucky would be strong candidates in this case), which decreases the stability of that league and makes Belmont more likely to entertain a jump to the MVC pushing us further toward multi-bid status. Fun fact, I heard several weeks ago on that Murray State podcast that the Eastern Division of the OVC (Where Belmont is) actually outperformed the Horizon league in the Sagarin ratings. Granted, Belmont had a big say in that, but that's still a real black eye for a once great mid major league.
LeCrone has tried and failed to land Belmont already. So has the MVC apparently but I do think realignment could force them to make the jump especially once the TV rights for the OVC comes up and maybe the terms won't be as attractive as they once were. I believe the OVC deal is coming up soon.
I do think Belmont in the MVC would be a great fit for both parties, even if Belmont sees a slight boost in travel costs with the move. Unfortunately their President/AD/maybe also Rick Bryd are taking the cowards approach of trying become "king" of a 1-bid league. Such a weak approach. So far they've chose low travel/low competition for 1-bid over wanting to compete and help build a 2-bid league in the MVC. Murray State likely would have also received an invite if Belmont also chose to pursue the MVC and they would have had their #11 and #12. Belmont's strategy failed them this past year by getting knocked out in the Conf Tourney...
It will likely come down to $ next time around. If the $ makes sense for them to pay the $1M OVC exit fee and whatever the MVC entry fee is plus the small boost in travel expenses then yes they will make the jump. The travel fees maybe less in the MVC the OVC if Belmont joins because that means the MVC will go divisions and they'd get likely pair with Murray State, Southern Illinois, Evansville, Missouri State (a bit on an island by themselves), and Indiana State. The only part that would suck for Valpo would be that we likely wouldn't be in a division with Evansville and Indiana State which could become great renewed In-State Rivalries for us and the Conference.
North Division: "The Yankees"-Loyola
-Valpo
-Illinois State
-Bradley
-Drake
-UNI
South Division: "The Southerners"-Belmont
-Murray State
-Missouri State
-Evansville
-Indiana State
-Southern Illinois
Quote
I wonder if all of this realignment and shuffling will eventually result in conference mergers. I can't decide whether that would be good or bad for mid-major basketball if mergers were to occur.
The "Problem" for Mid-Major basketball is that there are WAY to many schools right now that have NO BUSINESS being D1 schools right now. It hurts Mid-Major Basketball, in my opinion. There are just way to many "LOW Major" schools watering down the product for true "MID-MAJORS" Teams when it comes to getting multiple bids in Mid-Major Conferences across the country. Too many schools are dragging down the quality teams or teams with potential, imo.
Consider this: The number of Division I colleges and universities has increased from 306 to 350 over the past 20 years. Thats 44 schools in less then 20 years!
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on May 28, 2017, 09:08:53 PM
Sounds like the Horizon League is going to spend a year with only nine teams,AND NO INDIANA SCHOOL despite the offices being located in Indianapolis, but they've got a robust strategic plan for expansion in the future I tell you. Didn't we hear this same song and dance when Butler left and when Loyola left and so on... Where is this "Grand Plan" and when is it going to be implemented, Mr LeCrone? Delayed action has now cost him three programs and could cost him more in the future. With realignment only expected to pick up in future years, and schools both within the Horizon League and on their candidate list rumored to be in financial trouble I really think that the stability of the league is a legitimate concern for its members and that they should all probably have their own exit strategies in order in case LeCrone's plan goes bad. I just find it inexcusable that four years ago when Creighton left the MVC, the conference visited three Horizon League schools and took one; and then, when Wichita State leaves, they visit two Horizon League schools and take one, and all LeCrone has to show for that is Northern Kentucky. Yes, the Norse have been a good add, but I expected him to have a better strategy lined up to add at least one team to get back to ten for this year in light of the fact that the Horizon League seems to be where the MVC goes to get new teams; and in light of the fact that everyone knew Wichita State was looking to leave soon and that Valpo was a leading candidate to join the Valley if they did. I fear it may only be a matter of time before 1. The Horizon League becomes a stronger version of the Ohio Valley Conference without Murray State and Belmont, or 2. The better Horizon League teams all hightail it to the Summit League or some other conference or a merger with the Summit is made. http://www.tribtoday.com/sports/sport-columns/2017/05/change-on-horizon-after-valpo-exit/ (http://www.tribtoday.com/sports/sport-columns/2017/05/change-on-horizon-after-valpo-exit/)
Which of the two commisioners (Summit or HL) would be willing to give up their job? If that's in play, then a merger is never happening.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 28, 2017, 09:21:27 PM
Which of the two commisioners (Summit or HL) would b e willing to give up their job? If that's in play, then a merger is never happening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P10bC0Bxp20
Quote from: VU2014 on May 28, 2017, 09:21:01 PM
QuoteIPFW is already a good add. The Horizon League's footprint is shifting East and they have a school (Wright State) that is in a good deal of financial trouble. Their job now that Valpo's gone should be to protect their new bellwether programs in Northern Kentucky and Oakland as well as try to protect Wright State financially and stoke greater interest in Youngstown State by minimizing travel costs and adding closer teams(Robert Morris IUPUI and IPFW would be my leading candidates in a sane universe where footprint matters I think adding Denver New Mexico State and Grand Canyon is just a foolhardy notion.
How far has the Horizon League fallen that one of the bellwether programs is a school that been D1 for 2 years (NKU), wow. I don't disagree they are one of the schools with the brighter futures in the League but its just pretty sad to see.
I completely agree that adding Western Teams: Denver, New Mexico State and Grand Canyon, would be a terrible move for the league. It would tolerable travel for the bread-winning sports like basketball but the travel costs for sending the Non-Revenue sports out west would intolerable, imo. Denver's Basketball budget is over $3M, which a massive chunk of it budget goes to travel because they have to fly every where in Summit League. It made me sick to my stomach when I heard LeCrone was seriously considering New Mexico State last summer & apparently they are still under consideration.
I agree that it would be wise for the HL to start moving East. I were Detroit-Mercy I would would be doing everything possible to try and move into the MAAC (all private eastern school Conference). I'm not sure the MAAC would want them considering they'd stretch the Conference fairly West for them but they match the private school profile and they aren't too far away from Canisius College which is located in Buffulo (a little over a 4 hour bus ride, but pretty far from every other school). Seems unlikely but you never know. The MAAC is super tight because those schools love being in a conference together from academics and geographic standpoint.
QuoteThe Western part of the Horizon League will be swallowed up by the Missouri Valley in fairly short order in all likelihood. I can foresee a day where both Milwaukee and UIC are Valley members (as long as they continue to improve).
I could possibly see this happening if the basketball product significantly improves and shows that they can consistently over the course of 4-10yr window prove to be a consistently good program. Both program hired new coaches and are hoping to turn it around. Steve McClain can recruit the hell out of players but he's not exactly an X's & O's savant or great game manager. They should be a much better team next season and should start winning. Milwaukee hired a pretty good coach but they are much further behind in their rebuild and have a lot to prove still and further to go.
As for UIC they don't exactly a great academic overall in their men's athletics. Their Men's basketball team had 945 APR rating for the 2014-2015 season... (not so hot). Their women's side of athletics seems to score much higher then their men's programs. Not a single men's APR rating for the year of 2014-2015 scored above 377...
And we all know UWM has struggled with their academics in their Athletics. Men's Basketball was suspended from postseason play very recently.
Both schools have a lot of work to prove they can become more attractive potential members in my opinion and need prove in men's basketball over the course of a few years and once they get better you have to wonder how quickly they lose their coaches to bigger gigs. Can they retain their coaches if they start have success. UIC already lost their top recruiting assistant to the Illini staff (he was a huge part of the recruits they land the last few years because he use to be a very influential coach in the Chicago AAU leagues (a notorious shady operation. It's pretty well known that some coaches get paid $$$ under the table for sending their players to certain schools...)
QuoteHowever, if my memory serves, the Summit League has already outperformed the Horizon League in two of the past three seasons and that was BEFORE Valpo departed. How much worse will it get now? They have to act on Summit League teams immediately before the gulf between the two leagues widens to the point where teams like IPFW, IUPUI, and Western Illinois don't deem the hit in competition worth the travel savings of joining the Horizon.
I still think the Horizon League is going to be a better league then the Summit League long-term as long as the schools can retain their coaches at high % and Cleveland State & YSU can get up off their @$$ and start doing their part. I was not a fan of the CSU hire (retread older HC for low $) but the YSU has a better chance of getting going if their administration would start supporting the BBall program. YSU is a Football school and always will be and especially with Tressell and Pelini at the helm.
QuoteLeCrone's inability to act in a timely manner following Valpo's departure may cost him his best chance of saving his league. This is, of course, good for us because that means that they may be forced to look at the OVC for teams to help placate Northern Kentucky (Morehead State and Eastern Kentucky would be strong candidates in this case), which decreases the stability of that league and makes Belmont more likely to entertain a jump to the MVC pushing us further toward multi-bid status. Fun fact, I heard several weeks ago on that Murray State podcast that the Eastern Division of the OVC (Where Belmont is) actually outperformed the Horizon league in the Sagarin ratings. Granted, Belmont had a big say in that, but that's still a real black eye for a once great mid major league.
LeCrone has tried and failed to land Belmont already. So has the MVC apparently but I do think realignment could force them to make the jump especially once the TV rights for the OVC comes up and maybe the terms won't be as attractive as they once were. I believe the OVC deal is coming up soon.
I do think Belmont in the MVC would be a great fit for both parties, even if Belmont sees a slight boost in travel costs with the move. Unfortunately their President/AD/maybe also Rick Bryd are taking the cowards approach of trying become "king" of a 1-bid league. Such a weak approach. So far they've chose low travel/low competition for 1-bid over wanting to compete and help build a 2-bid league in the MVC. Murray State likely would have also received an invite if Belmont also chose to purse the MVC and they would have had their #11 and #12. Belmont's strategy failed them this past year by getting knocked out in the Conf Tourney...
It will likely come down to $ next time around. If the $ makes sense for them to pay the $1M OVC exit fee and whatever the MVC entry fee is plus the small boost in travel expenses then yes they will make the jump. The travel fees maybe less in the MVC the OVC if Belmont joins because that means the MVC will go divisions and they'd get likely pair with Murray State, Southern Illinois, Evansville, Missouri State (a bit on an island by themselves), and Indiana State. The only part that sucks for Valpo would be that we would be in a division with Evansville and Indiana State which could become great renewed In-State Rivalries for us and the Conference.
North Division: "The Yankees"
-Loyola
-Valpo
-Illinois State
-Bradley
-Drake
-UNI
South Division: "The Southerners"
-Belmont
-Murray State
-Missouri State
-Evansville
-Indiana State
-Southern Illinois
Quote
I wonder if all of this realignment and shuffling will eventually result in conference mergers. I can't decide whether that would be good or bad for mid-major basketball if mergers were to occur.
The "Problem" for Mid-Major basketball is that there are WAY to many schools right now that have NO BUSINESS being D1 schools right now. It hurts Mid-Major Basketball, in my opinion. There are just way to many "LOW Major" schools watering down the product for true "MID-MAJORS" Teams when it comes to getting multiple bids in Mid-Major Conferences across the country. Too many schools are dragging down the quality teams or teams with potential, imo.
Consider this: The number of Division I colleges and universities has increased from 306 to 350 over the past 20 years. Thats 44 schools in less then 20 years!
This is a truly excellent post. I think Belmont will feel increased pressure. The OVC deal expires after this upcoming year if my memory serves and the move to divisional play could be enough to placate them as it would significantly ease their travel burden. If they get knocked out again in the Conference Tournament, they may get the message that this whole "King of the OVC" notion is a farce and leap to what would surely be a multi bid league with Valpo Murray State and Belmont in the mix. They may also hear the rumblings of other OVC teams leaving which may force their hand even more since the stability of the conference would be thrown into some question. I have thought extensively through many Valley expansion\ travel partner scnearios and really like that divisional setup. I think it suits all parties well and is very balanced in terms of competitiveness. Not too many of the conference's best teams in either division. While I am bearish on the Horizon and the Ohio Valley's future, and go back and forth on the future of the Summit League, I am unshakably bullish on the Missouri Valley's future. I feel that they will continue to be a top ten conference in the nation for a long time as well as the preeminent conference for Midwestern mid major basketball. I also think that your point on D1 athletics becoming watered down is well-taken. I think these schools made this leap with the promise of big cable dollars and have been disappointed. When the cable money starts to really dry up for the smaller leagues, the same factors that will force schools like Belmont to jump to a more competitive conference will force these schools perhaps to return to D2.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 28, 2017, 07:13:14 PMThey already have a 13,000 seat arena. Why a new smaller one?
Hoping for a return of the Pistons?
The proposed new downtown facility for Fort Wayne is, as of now, not close to being a done deal. Some ambitious people think it is a great idea but there are many who think the opposite. The Mayor believes there is an endless pit of money that the people of Ft. Wayne and Allen County have just waiting to be spent on his programs. Now they want to raise the county income tax to help with the big Riverfront project just getting started in downtown. Don't bet that the new arena is a done deal...at least not yet.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 29, 2017, 12:15:56 PM
The proposed new downtown facility for Fort Wayne is, as of now, not close to being a done deal. Some ambitious people think it is a great idea but there are many who think the opposite. The Mayor believes there is an endless pit of money that the people of Ft. Wayne and Allen County have just waiting to be spent on his programs. Now they want to raise the county income tax to help with the big Riverfront project just getting started in downtown. Don't bet that the new arena is a done deal...at least not yet.
From the diagrams it looks like the plan is to do a lot of concerts or stage entertainment bookings plus have a floor for basketball. Related to this, does Ft. Wayne already have, for want of a better name, a Performing Arts Center dedicated to non-sports events? Multi-use facilities don't do justice to most non-sports entertainment that requires better acoustics -- like plays. In Wisconsin we have the Marcus Center in MKE that seats around 2600 and the Fox Valley PAC in Appleton that seats around 2300. These are great venues for shows, touring theater groups and music concerts. If the concert or show demands a larger venue, they book the Resch Center in Green Bay (6800) or if it is really big, the Bradley Center in MKE (12000).
Quote from above:
"I wonder if all of this realignment and shuffling will eventually result in conference mergers. I can't decide whether that would be good or bad for mid-major basketball if mergers were to occur."
Two reasons why the mergers of mid-major conferences is highly unlikely:
1. While some stronger programs would welcome a deep 14+ team conference, a majority of programs would reject this because it would reduce their likelihood of getting automatic NCAA bid.
2. Two conferences merging into one would likely reduce the conference administrative staff by almost 50%. Wanting to protect their jobs, most administrators would be motivated to work against conference mergers.
QuoteTwo reasons why the mergers of mid-major conferences is highly unlikely:
1. While some stronger programs would welcome a deep 14+ team conference, a majority of programs would reject this because it would reduce their likelihood of getting automatic NCAA bid.
2. Two conferences merging into one would likely reduce the conference administrative staff by almost 50%. Wanting to protect their jobs, most administrators would be motivated to work against conference mergers.
Exactly. But you left out the (most important) reason #3: You would have to have dead-bang, 100% certainty (like a shiny new, lucrative TV contract waiting for signatures) that such a league would increase revenues exponentially before you'd get anyone to sign on. No mid-major school is getting in line to have their already-meager revenues split 14 or 16 ways instead of ten without absolute assurances that the overall pie is getting much, much, MUCH larger.
The North-South split makes a loto of sense. Ironically, the conference is going east too. But for the better in travel terms. Hopefully, the Chicago media has a stronger #2 focus on the MVC due to Loyola-Valpo presence as well as Bradley-ISU.
And don't forget that as a conference expands its geographical area it usually means increased travel expenses, and in some cases a significant increase.
If you want to be entertained click & read through this twitter conversation ;D
Horizon League fans arguing amongst themselves and Valpo gets brought up and including this message board gets trashed by an Oakland fan
https://twitter.com/GrizzTalkOU/status/870333377299218432
https://twitter.com/MR_KJS/status/871788748975071233
Oakland is jealous. They have been chasing us from the start of their D-1 journey in Men's Basketball, and will continue to do so in perpetuity
Oakland aside, have we heard rumblings of any new assistant coach options?
We need to put the HL behind us. There is nothing to be gained by focusing on the past.
I suggest that this string be archived.
^^agreed^^. Hit the unfollow button on those bozos and watch them fade in the rear view mirror.
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/877600611281154048
Well this is interesting. IPFW feels like a lock to the HL if offered, which seems likely.
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/877590727923859456
https://twitter.com/LindsayScar34/status/877609285840142338
https://twitter.com/IPFW/status/877613845363150848
http://www.journalgazette.net/news/local/schools/20170617/no-div-i-for-iu-athletes-in-fort-wayne
No Div. I for IU athletes in Fort Wayne
Details of IPFW split approved
RON SHAWGO | The Journal Gazette
Indiana University students enrolled in what is now IPFW will not be able to participate in Division I sports when the school splits next year.
That policy is one of many approved Friday by trustees for Indiana and Purdue universities, which have jointly operated IPFW for more than 50 years. Spelled out in legal detail, the agreement addresses how the universities will cooperate through July 1, 2018, when IPFW officially becomes two schools. It also outlines terms after the split. Division I will be Purdue's domain.
The 77-page agreement, with appendices, covers responsibilities for financial aid, faculty transfers between schools, property, the campus library, its bookstore and even how the name "IPFW" can be used in the future. The trustees approved the agreement in separate board meetings.
Buried deep in the document is the fact that although IU Fort Wayne students will be able to participate in athletic events, recreational activities and intramural sports, they will be barred from Division I.
National Collegiate Athletic Association rules prohibit players from two different schools competing on one team, IU spokeswoman Margie Smith-Simmons said in an email response.
......
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/877612544726376448
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/877607440665194496
So it could be IUPUI (logically) presuming they agree to upgrade their club baseball to D1. I don't think they will want to fool around with the situation at Fort Wayne. Not sure Edwardsville would jump from the OVC and Grand Canyon would be nuts. Imagine money strapped Green Bay being excited about flying their teams to Phoenix? Now, if they can get New Mexico State and Grand Canyon then they might be on to something.
IUPUI had D-1 baseball up until 2000 or 2001. I assume that they still have the same field in place.
Quote from: valpotx on June 21, 2017, 08:15:35 PM
IUPUI had D-1 baseball up until 2000 or 2001. I assume that they still have the same field in place.
I am pretty sure there is no baseball field on campus. The club team plays on the south side of Indy. Until a conference is desperate the lack of baseball will kill their chances of moving.
Correct, they often used different city fields
It's starting to look like the HL is replacing us with IUPUI...the HL board seems about ready for a serious mental breakdown.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
To think that the remaining programs feel that the HL is on the rise...
Quote from: Dave_2010 on June 22, 2017, 08:22:37 PM
It's starting to look like the HL is replacing us with IUPUI...the HL board seems about ready for a serious mental breakdown.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's even better than I thought...now Jimmy wants UWM to join the Summit League!
https://twitter.com/pantheru/status/878078674939129856
He's the worst.
SL probably not worried iupui left because they are gaining another Dakota school next year.
Ft. Wayne is now on an island in the SL geographical footprint. Only school in eastern time zone. Only a matter time before the HL gives them a chance.
Umkc has to be on the move to the SL soon. I wonder if umkc has reached out To the SL but the SL is still upset the kangaroos left and aren't answering the phone.
IUPUI receives Horizon League invitation (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/06/22/source-iupui-receives-horizon-league-invitation/103102686/)
QuoteWith Valparaiso departing for the Missouri Valley Conference, the Horizon League was facing the threat of not having a school in Indiana, home of the league's offices.
The Horizon League worked swiftly to keep that from happening.
In the last week, the Horizon League has offered membership to Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, according to a source with direct knowledge of the league's plans. IUPUI would come from the Summit League, the same conference Oakland came from when it joined the Horizon League in 2013.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on June 22, 2017, 08:22:37 PMIt's starting to look like the HL is replacing us with IUPUI...the HL board seems about ready for a serious mental breakdown. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Dave_2010 on June 23, 2017, 12:43:11 AM
Quote from: Dave_2010 on June 22, 2017, 08:22:37 PM
It's starting to look like the HL is replacing us with IUPUI...the HL board seems about ready for a serious mental breakdown.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's even better than I thought...now Jimmy wants UWM to join the Summit League!
https://twitter.com/pantheru/status/878078674939129856
What an offseason it's been for him. Here's a timeline:
Valpo to MVC rumors surface: We don't need Valpo The league will be just fine without them
Milwaukee also considered for MVC; Yay! Please happen! Spends considerable time lobbying (begging?) for Milwaukee to get an invite
Milwaukee passed over by MVC: It's okay The HL will get all the best candidate schools and be a great conference again! We should all band together to make Valpo regret their decision (said after literally begging for an MVC invite for his school)
IUPUI invited to join HL: Come on other schools Let's go join the Summit!
Does this guy have a position regarding the Horizon League he's willing to stick to ,or is he simply going in whichever direction the wind blows? He can't have it both ways: either the Horizon League is a decent league that had a bad year| a few bad years or it's a declining league destined for low major permanent one bid league status. So, which is it?
He's the worst...
Or bipolar.
Guys, when you have a chance to grab the 6th or 7th most popular basketball team in Indy, you have to do it.
(Does someone need to ask whether this move was solely made to justify LeCrone's ridiculous insistence on keeping the league HQ in Indianapolis years after Butler left? Ok, I'll ask, then.)
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on June 26, 2017, 12:03:08 AM
Guys, when you have a chance to grab the 6th or 7th most popular basketball team in Indy, you have to do it.
(Does someone need to ask whether this move was solely made to justify LeCrone's ridiculous insistence on keeping the league HQ in Indianapolis years after Butler left? Ok, I'll ask, then.)
There is a lot of strength in IUPUI other than in athletics including medicine, law school, business school, computer science, etc. But when you are the metropolitan underling of the major university of a state there is no way that state university is going to let the underling university get ahead in an area (athletics) that they have a great history established. See Alabama and their underling program Alabama-Birmingham in football. IUPUI will never be allowed to ever be a great mid-major athletic school.
QuoteThere is a lot of strength in IUPUI other than in athletics including medicine, law school, business school, computer science, etc. But when you are the metropolitan underling of the major university of a state there is no way that state university is going to let the underling university get ahead in an area (athletics) that they have a great history established. See Alabama and their underling program Alabama-Birmingham in football. IUPUI will never be allowed to ever be a great mid-major athletic school.
Indeed. (Though its probably worth noting that at least two of the academic programs you mention have been in Indy decades before IUPUI's creation and have always basically been fully considered part of IU-Bloomington -- medicine and law). But your point that IU's administration will *never* allow IUPUI to be consistently competitive to the point where they might peel off loyalty from the flagship is completely true. IU and Purdue do everything they can to undermine state funding to BSU and ISU whenever those institutions present a threat on the academic, facilities or athletic front, and those are two universities they don't even have direct control over.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on June 26, 2017, 10:58:58 AM
QuoteThere is a lot of strength in IUPUI other than in athletics including medicine, law school, business school, computer science, etc. But when you are the metropolitan underling of the major university of a state there is no way that state university is going to let the underling university get ahead in an area (athletics) that they have a great history established. See Alabama and their underling program Alabama-Birmingham in football. IUPUI will never be allowed to ever be a great mid-major athletic school.
Indeed. (Though its probably worth noting that at least two of the academic programs you mention have been in Indy decades before IUPUI's creation and have always basically been fully considered part of IU-Bloomington -- medicine and law). But your point that IU's administration will *never* allow IUPUI to be consistently competitive to the point where they might peel off loyalty from the flagship is completely true. IU and Purdue do everything they can to undermine state funding to BSU and ISU whenever those institutions present a threat on the academic, facilities or athletic front, and those are two universities they don't even have direct control over.
Now that the NCAA is putting more emphasis on academics as well as financial rewards to conferences with schools providing academic success, it is even more of a blow to the Horizon with Valpo leaving and being replaced by a school like IUPUI. Valpo now hanging out with the likes of Bradley, Drake, Loyola, Evansville and Northern Iowa will certainly become much more rewarding financially versus being associated with Cleveland State, Youngstown State and Green Bay, for example.
This from IUPUI Athletics twitter account:
"Please join Chancellor @Paydar and others for a special announcement at 10 am Wednesday or watch live on #IUPUI Facebook or Instagram."
Can't think of another situation where a college team that has had seven straight losing seasons and just a single NCAA appearance in its history (14 years ago) fell upwards like this, save for maybe Rutgers, and even they had experienced some semi-recent success in football. But you do you, Horizon League.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on June 27, 2017, 01:40:22 PM
Can't think of another situation where a college team that has had seven straight losing seasons and just a single NCAA appearance in its history (14 years ago) fell upwards like this, save for maybe Rutgers, and even they had experienced some semi-recent success in football. But you do you, Horizon League.
In fairness, who were they going to add? Grand Canyon and New Mexico State were hoping to use the HL as a catapult to a bigger league (WCC & CUSA respectively). Omaha and Fort Wayne are broke. RMU cares more about hockey than any sport the HL sponsors. Murray, EKU, and Belmont had no interest.
As best I can tell, that left you with IUPUI, Lipscomb, and UMKC. Not much there when you break it down.
What I would find wildly entertaining is the Summit replacing IUPUI with GCU and/or NMSU. That would firmly place it above the Horizon and send the HL fan forum (and Jimmy's twitter into complete chaos).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Dave_2010 on June 27, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on June 27, 2017, 01:40:22 PM
Can't think of another situation where a college team that has had seven straight losing seasons and just a single NCAA appearance in its history (14 years ago) fell upwards like this, save for maybe Rutgers, and even they had experienced some semi-recent success in football. But you do you, Horizon League.
In fairness, who were they going to add? Grand Canyon and New Mexico State were hoping to use the HL as a catapult to a bigger league (WCC & CUSA respectively). Omaha and Fort Wayne are broke. RMU cares more about hockey than any sport the HL sponsors. Murray, EKU, and Belmont had no interest.
http://www.facebook.com/ValpoFanZone
As best I can tell, that left you with IUPUI, Lipscomb, and UMKC. Not much there when you break it down.
What I would find wildly entertaining is the Summit replacing IUPUI with GCU and/or NMSU. That would firmly place it above the Horizon and send the HL fan forum (and Jimmy's twitter into complete chaos).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
To me, the bigger question is why would IUPUI jump from the Summit to the Horizon? The Summit by many standards, has past the Horizon and with the loss of Valpo that gap just got bigger. The Summit also appears to be much more stable also.
Quote from: vu72 on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
To me, the bigger question is why would IUPUI jump from the Summit to the Horizon? The Summit by many standards, has past the Horizon and with the loss of Valpo that gap just got bigger. The Summit also appears to be much more stable also.
From what I can tell, the Horizon has a better TV deal (definitely more national games and probably better money). The move will also cut down on travel expenses.
Either way, you're playing in a perennial one-bid league. Might as well save some money while you're at it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Dave_2010 on June 27, 2017, 02:14:05 PMQuote from: bigmosmithfan1 on June 27, 2017, 01:40:22 PMCan't think of another situation where a college team that has had seven straight losing seasons and just a single NCAA appearance in its history (14 years ago) fell upwards like this, save for maybe Rutgers, and even they had experienced some semi-recent success in football. But you do you, Horizon League.
In fairness, who were they going to add? Grand Canyon and New Mexico State were hoping to use the HL as a catapult to a bigger league (WCC & CUSA respectively). Omaha and Fort Wayne are broke. RMU cares more about hockey than any sport the HL sponsors. Murray, EKU, and Belmont had no interest. As best I can tell, that left you with IUPUI, Lipscomb, and UMKC. Not much there when you break it down. What I would find wildly entertaining is the Summit replacing IUPUI with GCU and/or NMSU. That would firmly place it above the Horizon and send the HL fan forum (and Jimmy's twitter into complete chaos). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This move actually makes more geographic sense than moving those schools to the Horizon League and is a scenario I have pondered as well . With Valpo now out of the Horizon League and the Summit now losing one of its main RPI anchors could we see GCU and NMSU consider a move to the Summit if it again grades out ahead of the Horizon? Furthermore could Jimmy be onto something with his thought that the Western Horizon League schools should contact the Summit? The HL teams may have a higher profile, a better media deal , and perhaps a higher ceiling ; but if current trends hold, that won't always be the case.
As for Fort Wayne, their financial situation is precisely why a move to the Horizon League is ideal. More regional schools with greater name recognition should boost attendance and they'll save a fortune on travel not having to go any further from home than Green Bay. Furthermore they are a baseball school and a strong enough program to potentially tip the balance of basketball power back toward the Horizon League. If they had been the add instead of IUPUI, I would have bet that the HL had just pulled itself back ahead of the Summit League pending what NMSU and GCU do.
were you speaking of Purdue Northeast? (lol)
Here's to the Jags! Makes sense for them and for the league. But what a fall from Butler days.
The Horizon drops an anchor in Indy, the center of their footprint.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on June 27, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on June 27, 2017, 01:40:22 PM
Can't think of another situation where a college team that has had seven straight losing seasons and just a single NCAA appearance in its history (14 years ago) fell upwards like this, save for maybe Rutgers, and even they had experienced some semi-recent success in football. But you do you, Horizon League.
In fairness, who were they going to add? Grand Canyon and New Mexico State were hoping to use the HL as a catapult to a bigger league (WCC & CUSA respectively). Omaha and Fort Wayne are broke. RMU cares more about hockey than any sport the HL sponsors. Murray, EKU, and Belmont had no interest.
As best I can tell, that left you with IUPUI, Lipscomb, and UMKC. Not much there when you break it down.
What I would find wildly entertaining is the Summit replacing IUPUI with GCU and/or NMSU. That would firmly place it above the Horizon and send the HL fan forum (and Jimmy's twitter into complete chaos).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ADD NOBODY! The Horizon is so short sided with these moves. Wait a few years and see how stable IPFW or IUPUI are. See if Robert Morris improves. I just don't see the rush to add IUPUI.
Yes, this. They absolutely rushed into a decision. Which seems odd, since they clearly weren't convinced that D-1 athletics are sustainable long-term under Fort Wayne's new structure and loss of IU-based students/majors.
It is pretty hilarious to see the outrage from Horizon League fans on twitter about the IUPUI invite.
I wouldn't call it hilarious. I'd call it pretty sad. There are a lot of good people over there who are demoralized over this "pull it out of the back pocket" move by LeCrone. Interesting also that IUPUI was extended only a 1-year contract. So there is ongoing speculation on why that came about.
Yeah sad but also little funny lol, especially to see some of the folks that said "Screw Valpo we're better off without them". Do they miss us yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmHZj2xImRo
Quote from: VU2014 on June 28, 2017, 04:01:09 PMYeah sad but also little funny lol, especially to see some of the folks that said "Screw Valpo we're better off without them". Do they miss us yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmHZj2xImRo
With all due respect, who cares if they miss us? These are the same fan bases that call us "stupid and delusional"and constantly disrespected us even though we constantly kicked their butts on the court. Multiple boards have said they're glad we're gone. If that's the way they feel , then fine. So long and thanks for all the conference titles over the past ten years. I don't miss the HL at all and look forward to our future in the MVC. I look forward to joining a league without consistent RPI anchors, a league that won't hurt our chances at an at-large, a league that cares about academics, and , most importantly, a league where the fanbases actually care. Finally, we will get true road tests in authentic road atmospheres; no more games in the 75% empty caverns most of the HL schools called home.
Well said VU grad. I'm with you on all you said and could care less that we are no longer in a conference full of large commuter schools.
We know what we will not miss. The question is what we will miss?
I will miss 5 out of the 10 years winning the conference. Don't know if we can do that in the MVC.
I'll miss kampe and his never ending transfers of trouble. They are good though.
I will miss games in Milwaukee.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on June 28, 2017, 07:46:52 PM
With all due respect, who cares if they miss us?
I'm guessing he was saying this all in good humor and was not meant to be taken literally.
I won't miss much about the Horizon League. Incompetent "leadership" in the Horizon League offices.
Not that it was in question, but Ryan Fazekas officially signed his LOI with VU. Verbal Commits reported yesterday.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on June 28, 2017, 07:46:52 PM
With all due respect, who cares if they miss us? These are the same fan bases that call us "stupid and delusional"and constantly disrespected us even though we constantly kicked their butts on the court. Multiple boards have said they're glad we're gone. If that's the way they feel , then fine. So long and thanks for all the conference titles over the past ten years. I don't miss the HL at all and look forward to our future in the MVC. I look forward to joining a league without consistent RPI anchors, a league that won't hurt our chances at an at-large, a league that cares about academics, and , most importantly, a league where the fanbases actually care. Finally, we will get true road tests in authentic road atmospheres; no more games in the 75% empty caverns most of the HL schools called home.
Well stated. Sounds like HL schools are just jealous of the way Valpo has dominated since joining the league.
The bad and good of the HL replacing Valpo with IUPUI:
Bad = The HL will surely become a perennial 1-bid league that will be 15+ in the RPI and rarely, if ever, win a game in the NCAA tourney.
Good = The HL will be more balanced, with the remaining teams now having a chance to win the league and actually make an NCAA tourney appearance on occasion.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on June 29, 2017, 11:13:14 AM
Not that it was in question, but Ryan Fazekas officially signed his LOI with VU. Verbal Commits reported yesterday.
Valpo announced this officially two months ago.
I have to admit, I don't understand this thread anymore...I'm glad to gone...the Horizon League is a piddly league, run by piddly people and watched by piddly fans...good riddance!!! :D
Agree. Maybe our administrator can move it to the archived horizon league subject??? I am thinking that the second half of the title (.....impact the MVC) is totally irrelevant now. That's pretty clear with the new HL addition.
Quote from: vusupporter on June 29, 2017, 07:16:20 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on June 29, 2017, 11:13:14 AM
Not that it was in question, but Ryan Fazekas officially signed his LOI with VU. Verbal Commits reported yesterday.
Valpo announced this officially two months ago.
Yup
The MVC is apparently still looking into expanding to 12 members and I'm guess UWM will be in the discussion. UWM's new coaching staff has really recruited well since taking over the program.
They landed a 3-4 star(depends on the recruiting service) SF and now a fringe Top 100 (according to Scout) PG from Chicago. On top of that they will be a lock to land the coaches son Pat Baldwin Jr. who is regarded as one of the best players (formerly) from the State of Illinois. He's only a freshman but still as long as he's still coaching at UWM they're a lock to him. When is the last time a Horizon League school landed a commitment from a Top 100 player? ??? I've seen some raised eyebrows on twitter about that commitment.
Its pretty shocking how good their recruiting has been since taking over for the floundering & chaotic UWM program. Maybe their recent recruiting proves to folks in the MVC that UWM can get its act together? They're AD & Chancellor could still be a sticking point for many MVC Presidents and ADs.
It seems like Murray State would be the most likely of any schools to get a invite. Or at least thats what it felt like post Valpo getting invited. If they do expand I'd personally like them to add 1 private and 1 public just to maintain the even public/private split in terms of voting power. The only private school that I see being "worthy" of a invite is Belmont and they seem content being "king" of a weak OVC conference.
Quote from: VU2014 on October 16, 2017, 11:06:21 AM
The MVC is apparently still looking into expanding to 12 members and I'm guess UWM will be in the discussion. UWM's new coaching staff has really recruited well since taking over the program.
They landed a 3-4 star(depends on the recruiting service) SF and now a fringe Top 100 (according to Scout) PG from Chicago. On top of that they will be a lock to land the coaches son Pat Baldwin Jr. who is regarded as one of the best players (formerly) from the State of Illinois. He's only a freshman but still as long as he's still coaching at UWM they're a lock to him. When is the last time a Horizon League school landed a commitment from a Top 100 player? ??? I've seen some raised eyebrows on twitter about that commitment.
Its pretty shocking how good their recruiting has been since taking over for the floundering & chaotic UWM program. Maybe their recent recruiting proves to folks in the MVC that UWM can get its act together? They're AD & Chancellor could still be a sticking point for many MVC Presidents and ADs.
It seems like Murray State would be the most likely of any schools to get a invite. Or at least thats what it felt like post Valpo getting invited. If they do expand I'd personally like them to add 1 private and 1 public just to maintain the even public/private split in terms of voting power. The only private school that I see being "worthy" of a invite is Belmont and they seem content being "king" of a weak OVC conference.
Ty Mosely is a Combo guard with offers from Bradley and DePaul. I'm not saying he can't turn out to be a very good player, but if he was really a top 100 kid (he's not rated on Rivals, isn't listed on ESPN, doesn't have a verbal commits page), then my guess is he'd at least be listed on most recruiting websites, especially considering that signing day's less than a month away. His offer list would also likely look a lot more impressive unless there were significant off the court issues, which there doesn't appear to be. I watched some of his videos from this summer and there's nothing to suggest he's a bad player, but I also don't see anything to suggest he's going to be a transcendent player in the Horizon League. If you're a top 100 player (Matt Howard was the last one), especially given the deterioration of play in the league, he should be dominant, and quickly, so I think we'll find out soon next season how good he really is. Either 247's scout nailed this one and everyone else missed him (it's happened), or that scout gave him a huge rating and he didn't really deserve it.
That has little, if nothing to do with whether or not UWM should be included in the MVC in the future, but I do think there should be some brake pumping with the Top 100 rating this kid has.
Quote from: IrishDawg on October 16, 2017, 12:52:14 PMdoesn't have a verbal commits page
He does have verbal commits page, including offers from Duquesne and UIC :
https://verbalcommits.com/players/tyronn-mosley
Still, he really is not Top 100 caliber.
Quote from: covufan on October 16, 2017, 01:04:35 PM
Quote from: IrishDawg on October 16, 2017, 12:52:14 PMdoesn't have a verbal commits page
He does have verbal commits page, including offers from Duquesne and UIC :
https://verbalcommits.com/players/tyronn-mosley
Still, he really is not Top 100 caliber.
The ranking services get a lot of prospects wrong but he still may be a nice prospect. Judging from the lack of offers suggests he may not be a Top 100 prospect in many teams eyes.
https://www.suntimeshighschoolsports.com/2017/10/15/henricksen-orrs-ty-mosley-commits-uw-milwaukee/
http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/tyronn-mosley
Quote from: IrishDawg on October 16, 2017, 12:52:14 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on October 16, 2017, 11:06:21 AM
The MVC is apparently still looking into expanding to 12 members and I'm guess UWM will be in the discussion. UWM's new coaching staff has really recruited well since taking over the program.
They landed a 3-4 star(depends on the recruiting service) SF and now a fringe Top 100 (according to Scout) PG from Chicago. On top of that they will be a lock to land the coaches son Pat Baldwin Jr. who is regarded as one of the best players (formerly) from the State of Illinois. He's only a freshman but still as long as he's still coaching at UWM they're a lock to him. When is the last time a Horizon League school landed a commitment from a Top 100 player? ??? I've seen some raised eyebrows on twitter about that commitment.
Its pretty shocking how good their recruiting has been since taking over for the floundering & chaotic UWM program. Maybe their recent recruiting proves to folks in the MVC that UWM can get its act together? They're AD & Chancellor could still be a sticking point for many MVC Presidents and ADs.
It seems like Murray State would be the most likely of any schools to get a invite. Or at least thats what it felt like post Valpo getting invited. If they do expand I'd personally like them to add 1 private and 1 public just to maintain the even public/private split in terms of voting power. The only private school that I see being "worthy" of a invite is Belmont and they seem content being "king" of a weak OVC conference.
Ty Mosely is a Combo guard with offers from Bradley and DePaul. I'm not saying he can't turn out to be a very good player, but if he was really a top 100 kid (he's not rated on Rivals, isn't listed on ESPN, doesn't have a verbal commits page), then my guess is he'd at least be listed on most recruiting websites, especially considering that signing day's less than a month away. His offer list would also likely look a lot more impressive unless there were significant off the court issues, which there doesn't appear to be. I watched some of his videos from this summer and there's nothing to suggest he's a bad player, but I also don't see anything to suggest he's going to be a transcendent player in the Horizon League. If you're a top 100 player (Matt Howard was the last one), especially given the deterioration of play in the league, he should be dominant, and quickly, so I think we'll find out soon next season how good he really is. Either 247's scout nailed this one and everyone else missed him (it's happened), or that scout gave him a huge rating and he didn't really deserve it.
That has little, if nothing to do with whether or not UWM should be included in the MVC in the future, but I do think there should be some brake pumping with the Top 100 rating this kid has.
Matt Howard was not an espn top 100 recruit. Jay Harris came after Howard anyways and actually was an ESPN 100 recruit (4 stars). This was in 2010. Kellen Dunham in 2012, Roosevelt Jones in 2011, and Kyhle Marshall in 2010 were top 100 for Butler. And who could forget our buddy Ray McCallum - he was a highly recruited 4 star, ESPN100 player.
Quote from: VU2014 on October 16, 2017, 11:06:21 AMThe MVC is apparently still looking into expanding to 12 members and I'm guess UWM will be in the discussion. UWM's new coaching staff has really recruited well since taking over the program. They landed a 3-4 star(depends on the recruiting service) SF and now a fringe Top 100 (according to Scout) PG from Chicago. On top of that they will be a lock to land the coaches son Pat Baldwin Jr. who is regarded as one of the best players (formerly) from the State of Illinois. He's only a freshman but still as long as he's still coaching at UWM they're a lock to him. When is the last time a Horizon League school landed a commitment from a Top 100 player? ??? I've seen some raised eyebrows on twitter about that commitment. Its pretty shocking how good their recruiting has been since taking over for the floundering & chaotic UWM program. Maybe their recent recruiting proves to folks in the MVC that UWM can get its act together? They're AD & Chancellor could still be a sticking point for many MVC Presidents and ADs. It seems like Murray State would be the most likely of any schools to get a invite. Or at least thats what it felt like post Valpo getting invited. If they do expand I'd personally like them to add 1 private and 1 public just to maintain the even public/private split in terms of voting power. The only private school that I see being "worthy" of a invite is Belmont and they seem content being "king" of a weak OVC conference.
Speaking of Milwaukee Check this out:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400989151
This performance has my attention. A couple more of these and they're back on my radar as an acceptable addition to the MVC. They still need to clean up that messy leadership situation though.
Where the heck did that come from? I know Iowa State was suppose to be a little down this season but that definitely looks like they dominated them.
Quote from: VU2014 on November 13, 2017, 09:56:54 PM
Where the heck did that come from?
Those were my exact words.
Also Bryce lost to Belmont 69-60 and Murray State lost to Middle Tennessee 72-67.
and Lipscomb didn't play... but it was not a total washout for Nashville sports... Tennessee State beat Reinhardt 92-53 ;D
Big win for UWM. Keep it up......MVC sending out invitations soon. I want UWM, but I also want them to be really good.
Other than geographic proximity, Milwaukee is no better a fit for the MVC than are Cleveland State, Wright State, Detroit, Oakland, UIC or IUPUI. All 7 are large commuter campuses in large metropolitan areas. Their fan bases are pathetic relative to their gargantuan city and university populations. Local news outlets barely cover them. They don't even bother to show up at major conference press events because, simply put, none of these schools are considered worthy of coverage beyond high school-level. These factors alone should keep Milwaukee from ever being considered for the MVC.
Now let's talk basketball. Milwaukee has had 1 glory period in their history, and that was years ago under the direction of a lifelong cheater with the moral compass of a dog in heat. Their athletic department is headed by a pc appointee who is abrasive and clearly in over her head. And she's just the latest in a revolving door of AD's, which means they have had no consistent strategy for athletic sustainability or development. Honestly, I can't think of a worse addition to the Missouri Valley Conference than the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee.
Wow, I can think of a couple worse additions.....IUPUI, Chicago St, UMKC, Omaha
I know UWM even with 4 years of sustained success on the court is not a good fit for the mvc. They are my pick because of selfish reasons. Such as a lot of alumni in area, direct flights from Tulsa, decent rivalry with valpo, another team closer to Chicago than St. Louis (you know where I'm going with that one).
Quote from: wh on November 14, 2017, 09:46:17 AMNow let's talk basketball. Milwaukee has had 1 glory period in their history, and that was years ago under the direction of a lifelong cheater with the moral compass of a dog in heat. Their athletic department is headed by a pc appointee who is abrasive and clearly in over her head. And she's just the latest in a revolving door of AD's, which means they have had no consistent strategy for athletic sustainability or development. Honestly, I can't think of a worse addition to the Missouri Valley Conference than the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee.
Probably very similar words were used when discussing Valpo's move to the Midwestern Cities (whatever the name was before the Horizon League) from the Mid-Con. Was Valpo actually ready for MCC (HL) then. Probably not. That doesn't mean that a program can't change to be a needed program and catch the other programs by surprise.
While I say that I don't know if Milwaukee is a good invite for next year to the MVC.
CSUB is leaving the WAC and joining the Big West with UCSD in 2020. With Chicago State's troubles, this probably puts UMKC to the Summit at "highly likely", IMO. If the Horizon League was smart, they would have already placed a call to Las Cruces this afternoon. Actually, now that I think about it, maybe Elgin should make that call instead.
The WAC is screwed. If I were New Mexico State and GCU I would have been searching for a new conference yesterday. UMKC was exploring going to D2. Chicago State has absolutely ZERO business being in D1 sports and likely will eventually move to D2. CSU Bakersfield is has confirmed they're leaving.
The WAC shouldn't be a Conference. I hope schools like GCU, NMSU, and SeattleU can find new homes. The rumor has been that LeCrone was both GCU & NMSU but I don't know if I see that happening. Travel would be a nightmare.
I just hope the WAC doesn't lose those teams and pulls up D2 schools that clearly aren't committed enough to compete at the D1 level. There are already too many low-major schools. It's over-saturated the last few years, imo. There are too many school that aren't committed at the D1 level and it shows.
Belmont loses to Lipscomb. Another loss like that and they'll struggle to get an at-large. This might just be a season that finally wakes them up and realize that the MVC is the only way forward for them as a program.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on November 27, 2017, 11:08:36 PM
Belmont loses to Lipscomb. Another loss like that and they'll struggle to get an at-large. This might just be a season that finally wakes them up and realize that the MVC is the only way forward for them as a program.
At this point they'd need to be close to winning out in their conference schedule and not have anymore bad losses. They need to win their conference tournament at this point, imo. OVC is pretty clearly a 1-bid league and will be for the foreseeable future.
It comes down to 2 teams in March in the OVC: Murray and Belmont. But anyone can win the conference tournament.
Quote from: VU2014 on November 27, 2017, 11:07:30 PMThe WAC is screwed. If I were New Mexico State and GCU I would have been searching for a new conference yesterday. UMKC has said they plan on going D2 (or maybe it was they were strongly looking into it?). Chicago State has absolutely ZERO business being in D1 sports and likely will eventually move to D2. CSU Bakersfield is has confirmed they're leaving. The WAC shouldn't be a Conference. I hope schools like GCU, NMSU, and SeattleU can find new homes. The rumor has been that LeCrone was both GCU & NMSU but I don't know if I see that happening. Travel would be a nightmare.
Just speculation here but I could see scenarios wherein the WCC or the MWC takes those schools in. The HL I'm sorry to say appears to have fallen too far too fast for that scenario to happen. It's also not feasible given the financial realities faced by some of the member schools. I find it far more likely that the SL splits with Fort Wayne and possibly WIUgoing to the Horizon while the Summit shifts West absorbing UMKC Utah Valley and possibly others. I consider the Summit League a better contender for NMSU and GCU than the HL at this point. Although it's highly unlikely, I wouldn't totally count out the MVC as well.
Quote from: VU2014 on November 27, 2017, 11:13:37 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on November 27, 2017, 11:08:36 PMBelmont loses to Lipscomb. Another loss like that and they'll struggle to get an at-large. This might just be a season that finally wakes them up and realize that the MVC is the only way forward for them as a program.
At this point they'd need to be close to winning out in their conference schedule and not have anymore bad losses. They need to win their conference tournament at this point, imo. OVC is pretty clearly a 1-bid league and will be for the foreseeable future. It comes down to 2 teams in March in the OVC: Murray and Belmont. But anyone can win the conference tournament.
I agree. Which is exactly why they need to leave with Murray State and join us over here. (Yes I know I'm preaching to the choir). No matter how many times it's explained to me I will NEVERunderstand why it's so hard to convince them of this.
Regarding the WAC, they also have California Baptist joining the conference, so it isn't dead yet.
Quote from: VU2014 on November 27, 2017, 11:07:30 PM
The WAC is screwed.
We don't know yet. People said the same thing about the Mid-Con in 1993, and the conference still survived—although to be fair, the Mid-Con's saving grace was that it had the ability to absorb another conference outright. The WAC has no such luxury. The WAC most likely will need to rely on D-II startups to survive if an exodus occurs. The next 2 to 3 years are critical.
As for the MVC, I'd be happy with an NMSU / Murray add to get to 12, with the understanding that NMSU is most likely a temporary outlier because of FBS football. Then, spilt divisions of 6 and 6. Put Valpo in the "West" a la Missouri in the SEC East if necessary to ease travel concerns generally if splitting divisions by geography. This would most likely be temporary anyway. And no to GCU. Not because they are for profit, but because if NMSU gets a spot in an FBS conference in the future as a result of movement or media contract renegotiations the MVC would be left with an outlier with no travel partner potentially for a greater length of time.
Some food for thought vis a vis MVC expansion:
https://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/11/28/16708426/your-nightly-brutality-south-dakota-state-outlasts-ole-miss-mike-daum
I get that Western Michigan is a solid team and one of the favorites in the MAC but they're an A10 team playing at home. This isn't SLU's first questionable loss (they also lost to Detroit). It may be time to seriously question just how much they would really add to the conference. They've got the resources to be sure but those resources aren't translating into wins, even at home. That is very troubling. Meanwhile, South Dakota State just took down their second P5 school this year and are 7-2. Both Dakota schools look really solid this year and appear to be the kind of programs the MVC needs.
Couple this with the D2 loss and the Iowa State win is a distant memory. It's clear at this point: Milwaukee isn't ready for the MVC. If we want to take someone out of the Horizon NKU is the way to go. AND they make better geographic sense for the MVC given that the addition of Murray State to the conference is seemingly a fait accompli.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400991252
Andy Katz just wrote that Gonzaga wants to be in the Big East (I mean who wouldn't?), but its the first time I've heard a prominent national journalist/reporter say it publicly. The geography makes absolutely no sense but not Geography means less and less these days. Ex: WSU in the AAC, SLU in the A10, the entire WAC conference...
I don't want a team like the Zags joining the Big East. It makes basketball sense only but it would be a blow to mid-major basketball as a whole. I don't consider Gonzaga a true mid-major anymore but I'd like them to remain in the WCC.
http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2017-12-04/andy-katzs-power-36-whos-ncaa-tournament-dec-4
12. Gonzaga (13): The Bulldogs had one of the most impressive wins of the week, knocking off Creighton at home by putting up 91 points against the offensive Bluejays. And the Zags did it without Corey Kispert, who got hurt in the previous game against Incarnate Word. The Zags, who would love nothing more than to be in the Big East, can show the conference office and its power brokers that they belong with a win over Villanova in New York at the Jimmy V Classic Tuesday. OK, there is something called geography in the way, but Gonzaga would like to be in the league. They return to their regular schedule (non-Big East games) Sunday with the revival of the Washington series, this time back in Seattle on Sunday.
Quote from: VU2014 on December 04, 2017, 09:13:41 AM
Andy Katz just wrote that Gonzaga wants to be in the Big East (I mean who wouldn't?), but its the first time I've heard a prominent national journalist/reporter say it publicly. The geography makes absolutely sense but not Geography means less and less these days. Ex: WSU in the AAC, SLU in the A10, the entire WAC conference...
I don't want a team like the Zags joining the Big East. It makes basketball sense only but it would be a blow to mid-major basketball as a whole. I don't consider Gonzaga a true mid-major anymore but I'd like them to remain in the WCC.
http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2017-12-04/andy-katzs-power-36-whos-ncaa-tournament-dec-4
12. Gonzaga (13): The Bulldogs had one of the most impressive wins of the week, knocking off Creighton at home by putting up 91 points against the offensive Bluejays. And the Zags did it without Corey Kispert, who got hurt in the previous game against Incarnate Word. The Zags, who would love nothing more than to be in the Big East, can show the conference office and its power brokers that they belong with a win over Villanova in New York at the Jimmy V Classic Tuesday. OK, there is something called geography in the way, but Gonzaga would like to be in the league. They return to their regular schedule (non-Big East games) Sunday with the revival of the Washington series, this time back in Seattle on Sunday.
"The Minneapolis Lakers moved to Los Angeles, where there are no lakes, the Houston Oilers to Tennessee, where there is no oil, the Big East added Gonzaga, a school in Washington...the state."
BASEketball (adapted)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Gonzaga is sort of holding the WCC back, IMO. None of those coaches can sell recruits on playing in the tournament, because the league is so top heavy. Gonzaga is not really a mid major... they don't share the same struggles and qualities of a typical mid major. I wouldn't mind seeing the WCC without Gonzaga. With that said, Gonzaga to the Big East seems like a bad idea.
Is Katz really saying that Gonzaga...GONZAGA...beating a top Big East team is required to prove they "belong"? Sheesh.
Quote from: a3uge on December 04, 2017, 11:18:56 AM
Gonzaga is sort of holding the WCC back, IMO. None of those coaches can sell recruits on playing in the tournament, because the league is so top heavy. Gonzaga is not really a mid major... they don't share the same struggles and qualities of a typical mid major. I wouldn't mind seeing the WCC without Gonzaga. With that said, Gonzaga to the Big East seems like a bad idea.
Same could be said about WSU and the MVC - and I have said that for a while now
Gonzaga to the Big Is good for pretty much everybody involved.
Quote from: UNIFTW on December 04, 2017, 11:44:27 AM
Quote from: a3uge on December 04, 2017, 11:18:56 AM
Gonzaga is sort of holding the WCC back, IMO. None of those coaches can sell recruits on playing in the tournament, because the league is so top heavy. Gonzaga is not really a mid major... they don't share the same struggles and qualities of a typical mid major. I wouldn't mind seeing the WCC without Gonzaga. With that said, Gonzaga to the Big East seems like a bad idea.
Same could be said about WSU and the MVC - and I have said that for a while now
It seems that the MVC's current performance without WSU is suggesting so, as well. When one team in a conference has an insurmountably greater financial commitment from the rest, it's probably not good for the conference (though we could argue to no end the definition of "insurmountable"). It is one of the reasons I find talk of Grand Canyon as an expansion candidate to be chilling.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/949033296163491847
https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18401&sid=39bee5d80156b501579bfd50ac578e6a&start=20
Racer fans seem ready to join the MVC if and when an invite comes. One person in the linked thread has repeatedly stated that he believes their invite will come this month. That would be a little surprising to me since I find it hard to believe that anything would come out before the expansion committee meets in March. In any case if this guy is right, and Murray State's invite is coming soon, that means one of two things:
1. The MVC has reversed course and will accept an 11 team model. (unlikely) or
2. The MVC has found a suitable 12th member. Who could it be? My guess is it's either Belmont NKU or Milwaukee
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 10, 2018, 11:54:04 PM
https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18401&sid=39bee5d80156b501579bfd50ac578e6a&start=20
Racer fans seem ready to join the MVC if and when an invite comes. One person in the linked thread has repeatedly stated that he believes their invite will come this month. That would be a little surprising to me since I find it hard to believe that anything would come out before the expansion committee meets in March. In any case if this guy is right, and Murray State's invite is coming soon, that means one of two things:
1. The MVC has reversed course and will accept an 11 team model. (unlikely) or
2. The MVC has found a suitable 12th member. Who could it be? My guess is it's either Belmont NKU or Milwaukee
Here's one hoping it's NKU because:
1. I won't have to drive over 200 miles to see Valpo play
2. I would love to see the reaction of certain WSU posters watching a school some WSU big shots laughed at leaping past the Horizon League to the Valley!
Quote from: nkvu on January 11, 2018, 12:06:21 AM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 10, 2018, 11:54:04 PM
https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18401&sid=39bee5d80156b501579bfd50ac578e6a&start=20
Racer fans seem ready to join the MVC if and when an invite comes. One person in the linked thread has repeatedly stated that he believes their invite will come this month. That would be a little surprising to me since I find it hard to believe that anything would come out before the expansion committee meets in March. In any case if this guy is right, and Murray State's invite is coming soon, that means one of two things:
1. The MVC has reversed course and will accept an 11 team model. (unlikely) or
2. The MVC has found a suitable 12th member. Who could it be? My guess is it's either Belmont NKU or Milwaukee
Here's one hoping it's NKU because:
1. I won't have to drive over 200 miles to see Valpo play
2. I would love to see the reaction of certain WSU posters watching a school some WSU big shots laughed at leaping past the Horizon League to the Valley!
Like that guy who liked to stick out his chest around here claiming to be an insider even though he was always wrong?
I'm not one to necessarily pull the ladder up behind us, but the Valley needs to be smart about this - the only way they should expand to 12 is if it either guarantees more TV revenue (highly unlikely with any of the candidates mentioned) or puts the league into fairly certain multi-bid territory annually (also unlikely). If not, there's no reason to divide the pie 12 ways instead of 10.
Unless the powers that be know something the rest of us don't about either of the two issues above, expanding beyond 10 seems like a fool's errand right now.
Hold out for another year until SLU takes an accurate look in the mirror at itself for competitiveness and geography. Until they agree to be the 11th member of the MVC, I see no advantages to expanding the MVC for the others we are mentioning.
SLU would be a win-win. Let's say you are an athlete or the parent of an athlete considering SLU. Do you want to travel East relentlessly and expensively?
Or would you prefer to drive 3 hours to see most D-1 basketball road games/events and see SLU in a hoops tournament in your hometown and possibly other conference events in a destination city? Do you want to pay increasing tuition or see faculty layoffs so that athletes can travel east to high cost cities like NYC and Washington?
SLU is not happening... They will hold out for a Big East invite, as they probably should. With Creighton in the Big East now, SLU makes sense as an expansion. With their lack of recent success that may not happen for them but they wont be looking to move to MVC. Agree from a competitive and geographical aspect, MVC makes more sense, but if we were in their shoes we wouldn't be clamoring for a step down/lateral conference move.
Quote from: vuny98 on January 13, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
SLU is not happening... They will hold out for a Big East invite, as they probably should. With Creighton in the Big East now, SLU makes sense as an expansion. With their lack of recent success that may not happen for them but they wont be looking to move to MVC. Agree from a competitive and geographical aspect, MVC makes more sense, but if we were in their shoes we wouldn't be clamoring for a step down/lateral conference move.
SLU is clearly overrated (especially in their own minds). They have all of 3 NCAA appearances since 2000. The only time they were really good is Majerus' final year and the first 2 years under Crews (with Majerus' recruits). In the 4 years since, they are a combined 14-43 in the A-10 with an average 14th place finish. Butler beat them by 30 a month ago. They would be completely outclassed in the BE. What they are in reality is a bottomfeeding A-10 program trying to rebuild. That said, I think they would have a better chance of rebuilding in the MVC than the A-10, where they are hundreds of miles outside the conference footprint. They should be considered.
As to Milwaukee, I picked up on a term a couple of days ago that fits their situation. Milwaukee is a shxthole program in a shxthole Athletic Dept. led by a shxthole A.D. in a shxthole conference. The MVC and shxthole Milwaukee could not be a bigger mismatch.
Quote from: wh on January 13, 2018, 01:12:17 PMAs to Milwaukee, I picked up on a term a couple of days ago that fits their situation. Milwaukee is a shxthole program in a shxthole Athletic Dept. led by a shxthole A.D. in a shxthole conference. The MVC and shxthole Milwaukee could not be a bigger mismatch.
Do you actually believe others respect comments like that?
Quote from: VU75 on January 13, 2018, 04:16:44 PM
Quote from: wh on January 13, 2018, 01:12:17 PMAs to Milwaukee, I picked up on a term a couple of days ago that fits their situation. Milwaukee is a shxthole program in a shxthole Athletic Dept. led by a shxthole A.D. in a shxthole conference. The MVC and shxthole Milwaukee could not be a bigger mismatch.
Do you actually believe others respect comments like that?
It was meant to be disrespectful to the UWM program and also wryly humorous. At the level he approached this, he was successful at both. If in the future he is sucker punched by some stranger who identifies himself as an insulted Milwaukee fan, I think wh is enough of a man that he would shake his head and wipe his jaw and say "point taken".
If SLU wanted the MVC, SLU would be in the MVC. If SLU is not in the MVC, the fault lies not with MVC leadership. They are indeed waiting on the Big East and could be waiting for awhile. If the decision is about basketball, they are likely last among all potential realignment candidates. I can't see them beating out VCU Dayton Rhode Island or Richmond on basketball merit alone. Their most significant advantage in the Big East's eyes is the very thing that is holding them back in the A10: Geography. They open a new and sizeable market to the conference, and neatly fill the gap between DePaul (Chicago) and Creighton (Omaha). Unfortunately for SLU, as a top 6 conference every year with a fat national TV contract, the Big East isn't interested--nor should they be--in diluting the quality of their basketball product solely for a new market. The move only really makes sense for the Big East if the addition also includes a strong national basketball brand which SLU is not.
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 13, 2018, 08:43:24 AM
Hold out for another year until SLU takes an accurate look in the mirror at itself for competitiveness and geography. Until they agree to be the 11th member of the MVC, I see no advantages to expanding the MVC for the others we are mentioning.
SLU would be a win-win. Let's say you are an athlete or the parent of an athlete considering SLU. Do you want to travel East relentlessly and expensively?
Or would you prefer to drive 3 hours to see most D-1 basketball road games/events and see SLU in a hoops tournament in your hometown and possibly other conference events in a destination city? Do you want to pay increasing tuition or see faculty layoffs so that athletes can travel east to high cost cities like NYC and Washington?
Take a look at SLU's roster
http://www.slubillikens.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPID=93215&SPSID=632633
Spring Valley, NY
Greensboro, NC
Columbus, OH
Orlando, FL
Queens, NY
Middletown, NY
Orangeburg, SC
Santiago, Dominican Republic
It would help their fanbase if the games were closer to home but they generally are not trying to help a St Louis based set of parents see their kid play. I agree that part of this is because they do play in an east based league.
I certainly agree with all of the posts that predict SLU will not join us. And I don't blame MVC leadership who I am certain has invited them numerous times. With each year SLU needs to increasingly consider its full financial and athletics picture as a university. They may not be wise enough to do that. On a basketball basis I might understand wishing and hoping on a star that they can land a Big East bid and its $. But from a net revenue (gross minus costs) perspective I have to think that they would benefit from the move.
They historically belonged to the Mo. Valley. Though I know history is not a good basis to make a decision it could help them sell it to the faculty and to the St. Louis community. My theory is that both of those groups would applaud the move. I have a hard time thinking that their attendances will increase playing St. Bonaventure, VCU, Richmond and other teams not recognizable to the casual Midwest sports fan. Alternatively in the MVC, they could draw alumni of rivals SIU, Mo State, Drake, Bradley to their home games and build rivalries since they likely have high alumni populations in the St. Louis area. And those alumni can enjoy that road trip to an attractive big league city. The money argument needs to be shaped by realistic predictions and other revenue possibilities beyond the NCAA bids.
At some point SLU needs to weigh the A-10 costs and likelihood of continuing to "wish" they were an attractive Big East addition. I advise the MVC to hold out for that day..perhaps for two more years. Murray is a good add. None of the others are good adds and Murray alone isn't worth goofing up the symmetry.
Try using your argument on the Billikens.com message board.
http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?/forum/101-billikenscom-main-board/
They will lambaste you for even believing that the Billikens belong in the Missouri Valley, a conference that most SLU fans think they have long surpassed.
It would be like someone arguing to our message board that we should go back to the Horizon League because we fit better geographically there and have not been that successful in the Missouri Valley. We know our team will do better in the Missouri Valley in the future. SLU fans definitely think they will be good enough for the Big East and will get an invite there once their team improves. They have set their goals much higher. Thinking lower is not in their plans no matter what level their team is at the moment.
BTW, SLU is still dealing with a sexual assault investigation about the basketball team that came out in September that many feel has affected the basketball team.
From: Office of the President <slu_announce@slu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 12:45 PM
Subject: A Message from the President on Recent Sexual Assault Allegations
Dear members of the SLU community,
I write to provide some additional information about what the University is doing related to this weekend's report of on-campus sexual assaults. The Department of Public Safety has already issued a timely warning about the allegations.
On Sunday, Sept. 24, we were notified by a representative of the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department that three women, including two SLU students, reported they were sexually assaulted in an on-campus apartment by student athletes.
First, I want to say how deeply troubled I am by these allegations, which involve behavior that runs counter to our mission and values. SLU seeks to foster a safe and supportive atmosphere where students, faculty, clinicians, and staff can flourish in an inclusive environment that is free from harassment and harm. Sexual assault, misconduct and harassment of any kind have no place at our University.
St. Louis police are investigating the reports, and the University is cooperating fully with the police investigation.
The University has also launched its own investigation through its Office of Institutional Equity and Diversity. The University's Title IX coordinator will be working with an external investigative team — engaged by the University — which specializes in assisting colleges and universities with reports of sexual assault and misconduct. The Athletics Department is cooperating with all ongoing investigations and fully supports the University's processes.
Any community member with information about this matter should directly contact the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department at (314) 444-5385, SLU's Department of Public Safety at (314) 977-2376, or the University's Title IX Coordinator at (314) 977-3838. Additionally, any community member with questions about the University's policies regarding sexual violence may contact the Title IX Coordinator.
Our process will be conducted in a thorough, fair and impartial manner. And the University will continue to provide support to all of our students.
Sincerely,
Fred P. Pestello, Ph.D.
President
This post yesterday on the SLU message board shows the sexual assault allegations are ongoing.
Posted 18 hours ago.
Not to mention all of Ford's comments about the emotions involved in the locker room. Something happened a week or two regarding the investigation process. Part of me thinks that they came up with a positive decision for the players, but the girl's lawyers likely appealed, effectively screwing the players for another 2 weeks because Fred wants to come across as supporting the women through 100% of the process.
(Fred is the SLU president, Fred Pestello)
They have three players that have been suspended by Coach Ford and are not playing.
Here is the St Louis Post Dispatch's timeline of the facts in the SLU sexual assault of September 2017 case:
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/slu/billiken-beat/timeline-of-slu-s-title-ix-investigation-updated/article_4d1dbc63-1d6b-52aa-a044-c16b2a8b795a.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share
SLU isn't coming to the MVC even though they are better suited for this league for multiple reasons. They'll be waiting for that Big East invite for a while if ever at all.
We need to get SLU out of our heads as viable option.
It's probably going to come down to:
-Belmont
-Murray State
-Dakota Schools (They'd seem unlikely to me)
-UWM
-NKU
-UT Arlington
Valley Hoops Insiders wrote an article recently after talking to league sources and lists multiple schools but I think a lot of the schools he suggests everyone could get a look. Example he suggested SEMO could get a look. I sure hope not.
QuoteSLU isn't coming to the MVC even though they are better suited for this league for multiple reasons. They'll be waiting for that Big East invite for a while if ever at all.
We need to get SLU out of our heads as viable option.
It's probably going to come down to:
-Belmont
-Murray State
-Dakota Schools (They'd seem unlikely to me)
-UWM
-NKU
-UT Arlington
If that's the case, then I will quote the Billy Beane character in the movie Moneyball: "Then what in the hell are we talking about here?"
Look, there are some quality programs there, but there is
no one who gets the MVC closer to perennial multi-bid status, nor brings enough cache to bring enough new TV revenue to offset splitting the meager pie 12 ways instead of 10. Until the dynamics of how tourney bids are distributed changes in meaningful way, this topic should be a non-starter until further notice by anyone around the league with a basic grasp of math.
(And I don't disagree with your take on SLU. Geographically, it would make a ton of sense. But Majerus tried to pound that angle when he was at SLU, at a time when the MVC was basically at parity with the A-10 in terms of tournament bids. And he got nowhere. We are not there anymore, and the presence of large east-coast markets in the A-10 surely means our TV deal isn't either. Until we can make the argument that the Valley is consistently the *better* conference, not just the closest one, I wouldn't expect SLU to have any interest).
Quote from: VU2014 on January 16, 2018, 10:47:38 AM
SLU isn't coming to the MVC even though they are better suited for this league for multiple reasons. They'll be waiting for that Big East invite for a while if ever at all.
We need to get SLU out of our heads as viable option.
It's probably going to come down to:
-Belmont
-Murray State
-Dakota Schools (They'd seem unlikely to me)
-UWM
-NKU
-UT Arlington
Valley Hoops Insiders wrote an article recently after talking to league sources and lists multiple schools but I think a lot of the schools he suggests everyone could get a look. Example he suggested SEMO could get a look. I sure hope not.
I agree with tx that Tex Arlington is a totally non-factor in the Dallas market and bring zero to The Valley. Obviously getting Belmont and Murray State or Belmont and NKU would be the top two and if we di get them it would literally kick The Ohio Valley to the curb. NKU is also Horizon's top team and would further move them into the "Lower Major" swamp. SEMO? Are you kidding me? They are currently #274 in the Sagarins. St. Louis may think they have a future but they are a mess now.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 16, 2018, 10:47:38 AM
SLU isn't coming to the MVC even though they are better suited for this league for multiple reasons. They'll be waiting for that Big East invite for a while if ever at all.
We need to get SLU out of our heads as viable option.
It's probably going to come down to:
-Belmont
-Murray State
-Dakota Schools (They'd seem unlikely to me)
-UWM
-NKU
-UT Arlington
Valley Hoops Insiders wrote an article recently after talking to league sources and lists multiple schools but I think a lot of the schools he suggests everyone could get a look. Example he suggested SEMO could get a look. I sure hope not.
I'll go one step further. This race comes down to:
Murray State (front-runner basically in)
Belmont (front-runner probably won't accept)
NKU (best possible add other than the private schools who are reluctant to join Still may not join because of relative youth of program and fragility of fanbase)
Milwaukee (sigh if we have to)
Dakotas good combo add but unlikely for a variety of reasons
I wonder if some unnamed but potentially sensible candidates are added to this list before it's all said and done: Wright State UIC Oral Roberts
Wright State and NKU would be such a nice combo add if Belmont ever said yes and the MVC ever went beyond 12
Why would we want to battle 11 teams instead of 9 for a single tourney bid, much less 13 other teams? That seems like a bad strategy. Still waiting for someone to come up with an answer for why the MVC should voluntarily sign up for that.
That's such an easy argument to make when you're inside the bubble already but imagine we were in Murray State's shoes (a program that should be in the MVC but isn't) I bet your argument would be very different also I don't buy the premise that this is a one bid league Greater improvement by league members and better overall scheduling coupled with the addition of Murray State and Belmont or NKU or even potentially Wright State with Nagy on board (keep in mind they just beat NKU on the road) could absolutely help this conference Garner multiple bids again.
KenPom numbers for top 3 expansion candidates:
Murray State 65 Would be first in MVC)
NKU 71 Would be second in MVC
Belmont 98 (Would be third in MVC)
If you don't think adding any of these three would raise the profile of the MVC and add more higher tier wins to conference play then you aren't paying attention
It's a shame we can't get East Tennessee State into the mix because of North Dakota's football team because their rating (59) is better than all of them.
Especially with teams now getting credit for top 75 rpi wins. Adding a yearly top 75 team would be a big addition
BigMoSmithFan, I didn't know Majerus wanted to join the Valley. My guess is that the former President was the driving force beyond striving upward.
Now they are a big PC mess and could use the budget decreases.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on January 16, 2018, 12:06:43 PMWhy would we want to battle 11 teams instead of 9 for a single tourney bid, much less 13 other teams? That seems like a bad strategy. Still waiting for someone to come up with an answer for why the MVC should voluntarily sign up for that.
Your post misses a very important point: There was a lot of smoke to suggest that if Belmont had been willing to jump to the MVC along with us and Murray State we would be part of a 12 team conference. The only reason They stopped at 10 adding just Valpo was because they couldn't find a suitable 12th team. How do I know this? If we weren't serious about finding a 12th member for the MVC the expansion committee wouldn't still be active. Translation' They want Murray State. Now all they need is someone with as approximately as much value as Belmont who can travel with Murray State or not disturb the current pairings too greatly. If you look at the programs side by side you can make a strong argument that NKU is at least as good an addition as Belmont and honestly now that Wright State is on more solid footing they're beginning to look rather interesting as well if they can keep it up. It may not be next year or even until about 2020 but the MVC is going to expand. That is a virtual certainty.
It's a giant financial risk. You say "adding a Top 75 program" like it will automatically turn into an extra bid. It won't, because the NCAA Committee is currently all-out to protect P5/6 bids at the expense of good midmajor programs. Until that changes, any addition of a team should be viewed as "does this lock in - not give us a shot at, but *lock in* - a second bid for the MVC? Does it bring more TV revenue?" If the answer to these questions is no, then the discussion should be put off until the answer to the question is yes. Because otherwise, you're just putting the league and the programs in it further behind.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on January 17, 2018, 10:50:57 AM
It's a giant financial risk. You say "adding a Top 75 program" like it will automatically turn into an extra bid. It won't, because the NCAA Committee is currently all-out to protect P5/6 bids at the expense of good midmajor programs. Until that changes, any addition of a team should be viewed as "does this lock in - not give us a shot at, but *lock in* - a second bid for the MVC? Does it bring more TV revenue?" If the answer to these questions is no, then the discussion should be put off until the answer to the question is yes. Because otherwise, you're just putting the league and the programs in it further behind.
I think as important as the extra bid could be the more important thing is the seeding our representative will have. For all the hand wringing about Valpo's lack of wins in the Tourney, a big part is the seeding we received. We had one 11 (maybe?) seed and the balance were lower, all the way down to a 16. Tough way to start the tournament. When you are coming out of the 8th ranked RPI Conference it sure bodes well versus coming out of the 25th ranked RPI Conference.
Also if you add multiple top 100 programs you give your members 2 3 or 4 extra opportunities at tier one wins. Plus the conference tournament. Plus more bites at the quality nonconference wins apple. This would have a profoundly positive effect on not only seeding but conference profile. With MVC level talent NKU finishes those games against Vermont Memphis and Texas A&M and Murray State gets that win over Auburn Belmont notches the wins over Providence and Washington. If we had added two of these schools our conference RPI would likely have challenged the AAC for the #7 ranking in RPI and the MWC for the #8 KenPom spot. I think we'd definitely be talking multiple bids right now.
Does it guarantee extra bids every year? is the wrong question to be asking. Unless you're in the AAC or above no such guarantee can be made. Does it give us a fighting chance on a yearly basis and will it likely lead to more bids over time? Is a far better question. The best thing we can do for ourselves is to make our conference stronger whether that help comes from internal or external sources makes no difference.
The only way for the MVC to get more than one bid is to have more than one team in the top 35 in various rating systems (pick your favorite).
And the only way to do that is to play as many quality opponents as you can both outside and in conference
So, updating the Standings, RPI and SOS... and adding the OOC-SOS...
TEAM CONF RPI SOS OOC-SOS
LoyoC 5 - 2 65 201 312
Misst 5 - 2 57 120 167
Drake 5 - 2 151 188 261
IllSt 4 - 3 82 33 22
IndS 4 - 3 135 53 54
Bradl 3 - 4 114 192 279
SouIl 3 - 4 134 113 154
Evans 2 - 5 124 97 137
Valpo 2 - 5 140 159 159
NorIa 2 - 5 127 37 17
That is a very solid set of RPI numbers for a mid-major conference. It is much more balanced without Creighton and Wichita State, but it will be painfully less lucrative in NCAA cash winnings.
All of the MVC teams are solidly in the top half of the 330 Division I programs. This is fun even though we are struggling to get to the middle. Starting our Arch Madness on Friday and thereby avoiding the Thursday play-in game at Arch Madness would satisfy me. Reaching the semis would be a success. I don't see the Finals happening, but I would LOVE to be wrong.
Quote from: talksalot on January 18, 2018, 06:41:49 AM
So, updating the Standings, RPI and SOS... and adding the OOC-SOS...
TEAM CONF RPI SOS OOC-SOS
LoyoC 5 - 2 65 201 312
Misst 5 - 2 57 120 167
Drake 5 - 2 151 188 261
IllSt 4 - 3 82 33 22
IndS 4 - 3 135 53 54
Bradl 3 - 4 114 192 279
SouIl 3 - 4 134 113 154
Evans 2 - 5 124 97 137
Valpo 2 - 5 140 159 159
NorIa 2 - 5 127 37 17
Valpo's OOC-SOS is much better than I thought at 159 ... middle of the pack for the MVC.
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 18, 2018, 08:24:20 AMThat is a very solid set of RPI numbers for a mid-major conference. It is much more balanced without Creighton and Wichita State, but it will be painfully less lucrative in NCAA cash winnings .
Not necessarily. All we need to do is work on achieving this balance at a higher level.
I'm sure this point has been discussed but I saw it as I was reading Murray State fans discussion of their potential MVC move if we can come to agree on teams for expansion: Moreso than bids units matter. Obviously being a multibid league guarantees two or more units depending on how many teams get in plus any victories they achieve but if we can't consistently reach multibid status maximizing the ability of our one representative to win tournament games has a similarly beneficial effect. They can achieve this by receiving a higher seed which they can get by playing higher quality teams. Expansion done right can help a great deal in this pursuit
I also think, as a mid major conference, you need to be proactive rather than reactive. The HL was reactive and we saw what happened with that. Let's not do that again.
This is precisely why I advocate adding a school like NKU even though they haven't "proven it" quite yet. We all see the potential. We know it's there. We also know it's a good bet that this potential is realized soon. Why wait? I have no doubt that they would compete in the MVC given their level of commitment.
KenPom has Murray State and Northern Kentucky both ahead of all MVC teams. Belmont is third just behind Loyola. Still think these are bad additions?
Murray State has a history of solid D1 performance. NKU has had 2 good seasons after preparing to join D1. Wright State entered the AMCU with similar first couple years of performance with experienced teams. The key question for NKU is can they sustain for 5-10 years, especially when this coach leaves because they had a couple of good years. The jury is out on them despite the amount of resources they have poured into their athletic programs. They have a nice arena that UCin is using this year while the Shoe is being remodeled. Be careful of fast rising D2 programs with no sustained D1 success, they often come crashing back after the first few years.
So Wright State they of only two NCAA appearances ever was NKU back in the AMCU days? Man that's definitely food for thought.
I don't think the MVC has any intention on increasing membership in the foreseeable future. Carry on...
I disagree strongly. I can't remember where but I remember running across an interview with one of the higher-ups in the MVC who told the folks at Scottrade Center to prepare for two extra play-in games starting as soon as next year. The expansion committee will meet in St Louis in under two weeks, so we should know more soon.
Wright State just beat NKU for the season sweep of the Norse. They now hold the tiebreaker for first place in the Horizon League. Also the door is now wide open for UIC. The Flames remain a game back of WSU\NKU but have home dates with both during the last week of the season. I share this information because it may impact the expansion committee's thoughts about NKU and their readiness for this conference. (Honestly it probably won't as NKU really feels like the best non-Belmont option but you never know.) What do you guys think? Does Wright State sweeping NKU change your thoughts on the Norse? If UIC wins the HL, does the MVC look more seriously at them? Could Wright State be a workable travel partner for Murray State?
Some of my thoughts on expansion as the committee's meeting nears:
Getting back to the original thread topic, the Murray State board is again buzzing with rumors of a forthcoming invite, this after they have wrestled first place from Belmont and set up a "can clinch with win" scenario for their final game.
One has to wonder whether Belmont's mind can be changed given the events of this season. They scheduled about as well as a team can schedule and yet they may not even get an NIT bid. They may need to win the OVC Tournament to avoid the CBI\CIT. The Bruins were really hurt by the down year in the Horizon League, Vanderbilt falling off, getting swept by Lipscomb, blowing two big chances at P5\BE wins against Washington and Providence, and tripping up in conference play. Meanwhile, the MVC showed great resiliency as the conference surged from 12th to 8th in RPI and may have a legitimate at-large candidate in Loyola if the Ramblers don't win in St Louis. While they would clearly benefit from a move to the MVC their decision to move their men's soccer team to the SOCON may speak volumes about their intentions especially with the Racers seemingly poised to vacate the premises and leave Belmont to potentially go on a Gonzaga or Kansas like run in the OVC.
Similar to Murray State, in-state rival and possible MVC target Northern Kentucky set up a win and clinch scenario following an unexpected loss to IUPUI by Wright State as the Norse doused the formerly torrid Flames of UIC 79-72. Succeeding in Indianapolis where the Raiders failed today will allow NKU to claim that mantle once held by Valparaiso, which left the Horizon League for the MVC this past July.
One may perhaps be alarmed by the rumors of significant cuts to higher education in Kentucky and the impact that may have on athletic budgets, but Murray State surely has the program and the fan support to weather this storm, and NKU, which sits just a few miles south of Cincinnati is in a prosperous region and is building a strong and passionate fanbase that will no doubt be energized by a move to the MVC. Fans of opposing teams will come away most impressed by the facilities the Norse can boast, particularly BB&T Arena.
I also wonder if SLU may be rethinking their stance on the MVC in light of the down year the A10 endured coupled with the success Loyola--a fellow Jesuit school--and indeed the Valley as a whole enjoyed. However, Father Harry said at last check that the two parties have not discussed a reunion, and I trust his word.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on February 24, 2018, 01:29:39 PMI also wonder if SLU may be rethinking their stance on the MVC in light of the down year the A10 endured coupled with the success Loyola--a fellow Jesuit school--and indeed the Valley as a whole enjoyed. However, Father Harry said at last check that the two parties have not discussed a reunion, and I trust his word.
SLU is about as ready to give up the A10 as Governor Greitens is ready to give up his governorship in Jeff City.
Commissioner Elgin on Arch Madness the future of the MVC and expansion.
https://soundcloud.com/mikereis-siu/2018-03-03-reis-interview-vs-illinois-st-mvc-tournament-doug-elginmp3
Personally I find his remarks on expansion understandable but disappointing. I understand that there isn't a comfortable 12th team but I still don't get why that should stop us from adding Murray State, the type of program that would do exactly what the commissioner wants an expansion candidate to do: increase the chances of at-large bids in the MVC.
Until there is a radical re-adjustment in how the committee evaluates non-P5 teams, there is ZERO reason to invite anyone else. We're making it incrementally harder to get to the tournament while shrinking our revenues due to the additional share.
Loyola was Twenty Damn Seven and five, with a road win over a likely 5/6 seed from the SEC, and by all accounts was probably getting snubbed if they lost in the Valley title game yesterday. Why in the hell should we take a risk of adding *anyone* without assurances that the Valley will get a fair shake from the committee first (or at least credit for adding a good program)?
(And Murray is a great program -- by the numbers, adding them *should* put us on par with the A-10. But "should" and "will" are two very different things in the mind of a committee that basically operates as a protection racket for the brand names these days).
I don't think the league will expand this offseason. Murray State isn't going anywhere and there isn't a great 12th option and dividing the pie 12 ways instead of 10 ways will weigh heavily in the University Presidents' minds. To be honest I don't see the urgency right now to expand and I do not fault them if we don't expand this offseason but keep the option open to expansion.
I wonder if Loyola's run has changed Belmont's perspective on the MVC and we can expand to 12 and give everybody at least two more Q1 games.
Loyola's run is all the more reason to stand pat unless any addition makes us a dead-lock multi-bid league.
That said, I'd be taking a coffee with SLU if I was the Valley brass right now with the following pitch: "hey, you can join a conference on the rise that's been to the Final Four twice in the past six years, with lots of built-in regional rivalries, and cut your travel costs across all sports by two-thirds... or you can stay in a 14-team league that hasn't been to the Final Four in 22 years, where you're only marginally more likely to get in the Dance, and where your nearest conference rival is 360 miles away."
I agree on SLU. There are a lot of parallels between them and Loyola so I'm sure Loyola's run at least raised some eyebrows for them. SLU and Dayton would be amazing--a huge coup for the conference. I disagree on the effect of Loyola's run justifying the wisdom of standing pat. First of all I think adding teams like Murray State and Belmont absolutely makes the MVC a surefire multibid league; and secondly, I cite the HL's inability to cash in on Butler's runs as evidence of the need to strike while the iron is hot. I remember reading that there were rumors of Murray State and Belmont going to the HL on the heels of Butler's runs but they were scared off by seeing multiple schools clamoring to join the MVC. We all know what happened to the HL after that. The MVC needs to pull in these high-caliber programs whenever and however they can.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 02, 2018, 10:17:28 AMLoyola's run is all the more reason to stand pat unless any addition makes us a dead-lock multi-bid league. That said, I'd be taking a coffee with SLU if I was the Valley brass right now with the following pitch: "hey, you can join a conference on the rise that's been to the Final Four twice in the past six years, with lots of built-in regional rivalries, and cut your travel costs across all sports by two-thirds... or you can stay in a 14-team league that hasn't been to the Final Four in 22 years, where you're only marginally more likely to get in the Dance, and where your nearest conference rival is 360 miles away."
VCU made the final 4 in 2011 right??
Yes, as did current A10 member George Mason back in 2006. The difference is that George Mason and VCU achieved their Final 4 berths as members of the CAA--not the A10.
Both of those schools made the Final Four as members of the Colonial Athletic Association. The A-10 gets no credit for either of those runs.
QuoteFirst of all I think adding teams like Murray State and Belmont absolutely makes the MVC a surefire multibid league; and secondly, I cite the HL's inability to cash in on Butler's runs as evidence of the need to strike while the iron is hot. I remember reading that there were rumors of Murray State and Belmont going to the HL on the heels of Butler's runs but they were scared off by seeing multiple schools clamoring to join the MVC. We all know what happened to the HL after that. The MVC needs to pull in these high-caliber programs whenever and however they can.
I agree that we should move aggressively while the iron is hot -- that's why you would approach SLU or Dayton now. There's no reason to add schools that won't necessarily move the needle (and I'm sorry, adding two OVC schools does *NOT* carry the value with the committee that some people seem to think, which is why if the MVC is smart, they'll wait to see if the committee shifts their stance on midmajor at-large bids before making any additions like that).
Put simply, if the Valley is going to be consigned to one-bid status most years due to Selection Committee corruption, I'd much rather do it in a 10-team league than in a 12-team one.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 02, 2018, 01:00:15 PM
QuoteFirst of all I think adding teams like Murray State and Belmont absolutely makes the MVC a surefire multibid league; and secondly, I cite the HL's inability to cash in on Butler's runs as evidence of the need to strike while the iron is hot. I remember reading that there were rumors of Murray State and Belmont going to the HL on the heels of Butler's runs but they were scared off by seeing multiple schools clamoring to join the MVC. We all know what happened to the HL after that. The MVC needs to pull in these high-caliber programs whenever and however they can.
I agree that we should move aggressively while the iron is hot -- that's why you would approach SLU or Dayton now. There's no reason to add schools that won't necessarily move the needle (and I'm sorry, adding two OVC schools does *NOT* carry the value with the committee that some people seem to think, which is why if the MVC is smart, they'll wait to see if the committee shifts their stance on midmajor at-large bids before making any additions like that).
Put simply, if the Valley is going to be consigned to one-bid status most years due to Selection Committee corruption, I'd much rather do it in a 10-team league than in a 12-team one.
Agreed, 10 team seems logical. Why dilute the MVC to chase (1) additional bid every 5-years?
I don't trust the P5 to concede any ground with letting the NCAA award more at-large births to non P5. It's just not going to happen, why sit under the NCAA's table expecting scraps that aren't coming. Don't dilute our conference further.
Money talks and mid majors don't produce like the large alumni bases of P5 schools. I vote for 10-team league unless a grand slam falls into our laps. Not even sure SLU is that any longer. Who is a grand slam in our league footprint?
Then we'll just have to rise up and take those extra bids by leaving the committee with absolutely no choice.
I don't know if there are any if SLU doesn't qualify. I also don't believe we're chasing one bid every half-decade. Illinois State barely missed in 2017 This year's Murray State team may have gotten in themselves and would certainly have put Loyola into at large position. The Valley would have had three bids in 2015 if Illinois State had won. It can be a consistent 2-3 bid league we just need to keep getting better and scheduling better. I don't think we need grand slams just teams that can turn in 50-75 RPI or better consistently. Murray State and Belmont can do that.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 02, 2018, 02:09:58 PMI don't think we need grand slams just teams that can turn in 50-75 RPI or better consistently.
We need better than 40 for at-large berths. Even then, after the loss that knocks them out of Arch Madness, they might need top 35 to get at-large.
Quote from: covufan on April 02, 2018, 03:02:35 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 02, 2018, 02:09:58 PMI don't think we need grand slams just teams that can turn in 50-75 RPI or better consistently.
We need better than 40 for at-large berths. Even then, after the loss that knocks them out of Arch Madness, they might need top 35 to get at-large.
Illinois State didn't even get in last season and they were 28 or 29. The Committee is pathetic and corrupt. They have a sliding scale of criteria based on who they want to make the tournament. They've made it clear they prefer the Power Conference schools. They continually screw mid-majors.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 02, 2018, 10:17:28 AM
Loyola's run is all the more reason to stand pat unless any addition makes us a dead-lock multi-bid league.
That said, I'd be taking a coffee with SLU if I was the Valley brass right now with the following pitch: "hey, you can join a conference on the rise that's been to the Final Four twice in the past six years, with lots of built-in regional rivalries, and cut your travel costs across all sports by two-thirds... or you can stay in a 14-team league that hasn't been to the Final Four in 22 years, where you're only marginally more likely to get in the Dance, and where your nearest conference rival is 360 miles away."
I doubt SLU or Dayton will seriously consider the MVC. The A10 is a proven multi-bid conference and both want into the Big East. Maybe if Dayton moved up to the BE, maybe SLU would consider the MVC.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 02, 2018, 01:00:15 PM
QuoteFirst of all I think adding teams like Murray State and Belmont absolutely makes the MVC a surefire multibid league; and secondly, I cite the HL's inability to cash in on Butler's runs as evidence of the need to strike while the iron is hot. I remember reading that there were rumors of Murray State and Belmont going to the HL on the heels of Butler's runs but they were scared off by seeing multiple schools clamoring to join the MVC. We all know what happened to the HL after that. The MVC needs to pull in these high-caliber programs whenever and however they can.
I agree that we should move aggressively while the iron is hot -- that's why you would approach SLU or Dayton now. There's no reason to add schools that won't necessarily move the needle (and I'm sorry, adding two OVC schools does *NOT* carry the value with the committee that some people seem to think, which is why if the MVC is smart, they'll wait to see if the committee shifts their stance on midmajor at-large bids before making any additions like that).
Put simply, if the Valley is going to be consigned to one-bid status most years due to Selection Committee corruption, I'd much rather do it in a 10-team league than in a 12-team one.
So........what does the SLU message board propose........................
Quotewhat if...
The A-10 invited everybody`s current sweetheart Loyola(IL) to join? Would they accept?
So IF this happened, would fit alot of the A-10 mold, Metropolitan School, private.
I think 15 works, make 3 divisions, play divison twice, everybody else once , making an 18 conference schedule.
Using Geography...
West- SLU,Loyola,Dayton, Duquense, and St. Bonaventure
North-LaSalle,St.Joseph`s,Fordham,Rhode Island and UMass
South-VCU,Richmond,GW, George Mason and Davidson
The addition of Loyola would help SLU and Dayton with a midwest addition, and Chicago footprint
Thoughts?
That would be a awful scenario for the MVC.
It's also extremely unlikely to happen. First of all, the A10 has been adamantly against adding teams on the western side of its footprint. Secondly it's still a travel nightmare for non-revenue sports. Odd numbered divisions leave open the possibility that some poor team would play in the West division and then play another team much further away in the same week. Think SLU or Loyola and Davidson in the same week. Yuck. Third, Loyola's budget would have to be massively increased and I don't just mean for travel. They'd go from having a competitive budget in the MVC to the smallest or second smallest in the A10. Fourth, travel isn't balanced AT ALL. St Bonaventure has to schlep its teams to the Midwest every year the south division has easy travel within the division. Fifth, Although the A10 got 3 bids the Valley finished well ahead of it in all relevant metrics and has a history of doing so. The conference is still on its way up. Furthermore, Loyola generated the same number of tournament credits as the A10 BY ITSELF. Sixth, one of the A10's premier programs--Rhode Island--has just lost its coach. Seventh, I don't think Loyola would do that to the MVC at this stage. Too much mutual goodwill. It's just a SLU fan trying desperately to cling to the notion that they belong in that conference and to their unearned hubris and superiority complex toward the MVC.
SLU moving to the Valley is significantly more likely than that scenario, is all I'll say.
While we are throwing out wild and random possibilities, no one has mentioned Loyola to the Big East. ::)
Catholic, urban, non-football, MBB to the final 4. And opens up the Chicago metro market (yeah, I know, there's this BE school already there, but for practical purposes the BE Chicago market does not realy exist yet).
DePaul would fight tooth and nail to keep Loyola out of the BE. Same goes for Xavier wanting to keep Dayton out of the BE. Just the same way Butler would try and keep Valpo from ever joining the BE, if we ever reached the level of success to warrant consideration (being a Lutheran University already sort of eliminates us from any prayer of joining a Catholic Conference). The Big East already is in the Chicago market even though DePaul is terrible and nobody outside their alums care about them. All that matters is that it get's them into the Chicagoland TV market. The only thing going for SLU's hopes for joining the BE is being a Catholic institution and being in a new tv market and they wouldn't be stepping on anyone else's toes if they joined the conference.
The Big East is not struggling right now, they don't need to add anyone, and if they decide to add, it will be someone in a position of strength. (And yes, DePaul would veto Loyola joining under the hypothetical scenario described).
If they won't add Gonzaga they're not going to add anybody. Give it up, Billikens, it's not happening.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 03, 2018, 10:40:41 AM
The Big East is not struggling right now, they don't need to add anyone, and if they decide to add, it will be someone in a position of strength. (And yes, DePaul would veto Loyola joining under the hypothetical scenario described).
They said they are looking to add an 11th team to combat what the other Power Conference teams are doing by moving to 20 game conference schedules. It's literally being done for strategic reasons to limit the potential of lower conferences getting multiple bids. It's scheduling trickery. There will be even fewer opportunity to play power conference teams in the near future.
So... let's at least add Murray State to help combat this? No? Sigh...
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 03, 2018, 10:58:16 AM
So... let's at least add Murray State to help combat this? No? Sigh...
The thing is Murray State probably doesn't automatically turn us into a multi-bid league. They are a nice program but it's not like they're a Gonzaga that adds a consistent Top 25 team that will greatly raise the schedule quality. The MVC operates with travel partners for Women's volleyball and basketball. That extra cost will weigh on presidents and ADs. Not to mention splitting the pie 11 ways instead of 10 is going to add more of a burden on budgets, but it's no slam dunk that adding Murray will make us a 2-bid league and increase unit shares that way.
I get all that but I really don't like the idea of the league sitting on its hands not taking advantage of this great year to get better. Other conferences are beginning to squeeze us harder we need to fight back somehow.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 03, 2018, 10:40:41 AM
The Big East is not struggling right now, they don't need to add anyone, and if they decide to add, it will be someone in a position of strength. (And yes, DePaul would veto Loyola joining under the hypothetical scenario described).
Hmmmm, same way Detroit kept Oakland out of the Horizon League.......................wait................Oakland is in the Horizon League............how'd that happen?
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 03, 2018, 10:43:33 AM
If they won't add Gonzaga they're not going to add anybody. Give it up, Billikens, it's not happening.
They didn't add Gonzaga because the travel, especially for non-revenue sports for everyone would be a nightmare, and going from Providence to Omaha is already a long enough flight. If Saint Louis ever did figure it out, or if Loyola suddenly becomes a major factor in Chicago (tough to imagine, given that they had a F4 team and had home games in front of barely over 1,000 people and sold out 1 home game in a 4500 seat arena all year), or if Valpo starts making major runs consistently, they would definitely draw consideration from the Big East. Butler's not a religious school at all and they got in, so the Lutheran thing wouldn't matter nearly as much as the University profile, which Valpo and Loyola fit.
The only other thing that might keep the Ramblers or Valpo from getting in, outside of a redundancy in the Chicago TV market is the arena size, but that certainly wouldn't trump winning, as Villanova plays the majority of its home games in a 6,000 seat arena (which is packed every night), and no one complains about that.
I'd be more worried about DePaul vetoing Valpo if that situation were ever to arise. Same TV Market, campuses are half as far away from one another as Butler and Valpo (Butler and Xavier are closer to one another than Butler and Valpo). Xavier and Dayton are basically the same distance apart (about 9 miles closer) as DePaul and Valpo, and are in the same TV market as well. Dayton would likely have to make it so painfully obvious of an add through several deep tourney runs for the rest of the league and the TV partners to determine that they'd be a good enough fit to ignore that. I'd imagine that it would be the same for Valpo and/or Loyola.
In terms of MVC adds, I don't think much has changed. The best candidates are Murray State and Belmont, but I'm not sure either school helps the league get multiple bids, but if more and more of the major conferences move to a 20 game conference schedule, there might not much that the MVC can do but grab one of those two (most likely Murray State) and follow suit.
SLU or nobody. You all know how I feel. In reality of the Power 5 climate I don't think ANY school within the reach of the MVC can make us a 2-bid league. Not to rain on a parade, but the years when our entrant wins NCAA games will be few. Wichita State is gone and reputations take time to build for an at-large.
However,....... I think SLU might be a cash engine for the MVC schools in total by increasing the TV rights due to St. Louis market viewership and more traveling fans to road games in many directions. The MVC could offer SLU a low entry fee or none in exchange for a share of ticket revenue gains from SLU. More alumni of the MVC schools live in St. Louis than alumni of the Atlantic 10 schools. By far!!
As I have said before, many conference tournaments in other sports could be played in St. Louis and draw more fans from all schools. Those are shared revenues as well. Arch Madness can be a model for other sports. Baseball would draw well in St. Louis and soccer, volleyball, and womens' hoops could start small and grow. Casual fans in St. Louis might start coming, but the main draw would be traveling alumni from the MVC schools.
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 04, 2018, 07:52:49 AM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 03, 2018, 10:43:33 AM
If they won't add Gonzaga they're not going to add anybody. Give it up, Billikens, it's not happening.
They didn't add Gonzaga because the travel, especially for non-revenue sports for everyone would be a nightmare, and going from Providence to Omaha is already a long enough flight. If Saint Louis ever did figure it out, or if Loyola suddenly becomes a major factor in Chicago (tough to imagine, given that they had a F4 team and had home games in front of barely over 1,000 people and sold out 1 home game in a 4500 seat arena all year), or if Valpo starts making major runs consistently, they would definitely draw consideration from the Big East. Butler's not a religious school at all and they got in, so the Lutheran thing wouldn't matter nearly as much as the University profile, which Valpo and Loyola fit.
The only other thing that might keep the Ramblers or Valpo from getting in, outside of a redundancy in the Chicago TV market is the arena size, but that certainly wouldn't trump winning, as Villanova plays the majority of its home games in a 6,000 seat arena (which is packed every night), and no one complains about that.
I'd be more worried about DePaul vetoing Valpo if that situation were ever to arise. Same TV Market, campuses are half as far away from one another as Butler and Valpo (Butler and Xavier are closer to one another than Butler and Valpo). Xavier and Dayton are basically the same distance apart (about 9 miles closer) as DePaul and Valpo, and are in the same TV market as well. Dayton would likely have to make it so painfully obvious of an add through several deep tourney runs for the rest of the league and the TV partners to determine that they'd be a good enough fit to ignore that. I'd imagine that it would be the same for Valpo and/or Loyola.
Not sure about this. Not to take anything away from Butler, because your post season tournament success is impressive, but IMO you guys are partially where you are now because of substantial conference realignment which resulted in one major BCS conference splitting along non-football lines (Big East) and another FBS conference ceasing football operations all together (WAC). Your program's timing to explode nationally was perfect in that regard. The confluence of events which put open seats at conference tables in the manner that it did will likely never happen again, unless something catastrophic occurs like the Big 12 dissolving.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 04, 2018, 10:14:21 AM
Not sure about this. Not to take anything away from Butler, because your post season tournament success is impressive, but IMO you guys are partially where you are now because of substantial conference realignment which resulted in one major BCS conference splitting along non-football lines (Big East) and another FBS conference ceasing football operations all together (WAC). Your program's timing to explode nationally was perfect in that regard. The confluence of events which put open seats at conference tables in the manner that it did will likely never happen again, unless something catastrophic occurs like the Big 12 dissolving.
No offense taken, and I never said that one thing would automatically lead to the other, just that if Valpo or Loyola (or any private school that is driven by basketball first) were to piece together several consistent runs of success that they would definitely be considered for an invite, but that's all my opinion.
Future realignment, as you said, unless catastrophic events occur isn't going to be a massive shift as in years past. You'll see a single team move leagues which causes a domino effect, like with Wichita State last year (which allowed Valpo and IUPUI to move leagues), and with the P5 leagues other than the Big 12 going to a 20 game conference schedule, other leagues, like the Big East and MVC are going to be looking for schools to move to that model as well, assuming it makes sense.
And yes, Butler is in the Big East because of the timing of its runs, and at the time of the move to the Big East (and for the first 2 days after the new league was formed), they had one of the hottest names in basketball coaching them. Had Stevens left during a normal time in the coaching carousel that year, who knows if the league would have honored the invite. I do disagree that the WAC had anything to do with where Butler is right now, but other than that, there was definitely some luck involved in all of it.
Probably means nothing for the MVC; but since GCU has been mentioned in expansion talks, here's this:
https://news.gcu.edu/2018/07/gcu-nonprofit-transaction-completed/
This article (credit to VU2014 for finding it as it is also being discussed in the MVC Hoops thread) also says that nothing is imminent on expansion but that P5 scheduling practices may force the MVC in that direction.. Good news for us expansion advocates. Hopefully schools like Belmont, SLU and Dayton will be receptive this time; but that may be wishful thinking.
I would welcome a broader discussion about the pros and cons of MVC expansion. Adding 2 teams to a 10-team league to get 2 bids instead of 1 would be great, but what if it doesn't happen? Our odds of winning the league go from 1:10 to 1:12, and probably worse since the programs we would add would be proven winners and highly competitive. Moreover, our share of tournament pot money goes from 10% to 8 (a 20% cut in dollars). It seems like a very high risk strategy, especially since the NCAA and power conferences are doing everything in their power to reduce mid-major at-larges.
Quote from: wh on July 05, 2018, 12:44:18 PM
I would welcome a broader discussion about the pros and cons of MVC expansion. Adding 2 teams to a 10-team league to get 2 bids instead of 1 would be great, but what if it doesn't happen? Our odds of winning the league go from 1:10 to 1:12, and probably worse since the programs we would add would be proven winners and highly competitive. Moreover, our share of tournament pot money goes from 10% to 8 (a 20% cut in dollars). It seems like a very high risk strategy, especially since the NCAA and power conferences are doing everything in their power to reduce mid-major at-larges.
I'm also skeptical on expansion. We already have a very difficult road to win this conference. Like it or not our program history isn't as shiny when compared to this conference and the teams competing.
Basketball surplus helps to fund other sports at VU. Cutting the pie 20% (b-ball income) is sizable enough for our overly conservative board/president to start cutting other sports. It's happening all over college sports where Title 9 has erased men's sports teams (swimming, track and field etc).
No matter what the NCAA (puppets to $$) end up doing with RPI, we simply are not going to get 2-bid league status in the near term.
Two thumbs down on expansion. I foresee it leading to more cuts in VU men's teams and that's not ok.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on July 05, 2018, 12:54:45 PM
Quote from: wh on July 05, 2018, 12:44:18 PM
I would welcome a broader discussion about the pros and cons of MVC expansion. Adding 2 teams to a 10-team league to get 2 bids instead of 1 would be great, but what if it doesn't happen? Our odds of winning the league go from 1:10 to 1:12, and probably worse since the programs we would add would be proven winners and highly competitive. Moreover, our share of tournament pot money goes from 10% to 8 (a 20% cut in dollars). It seems like a very high risk strategy, especially since the NCAA and power conferences are doing everything in their power to reduce mid-major at-larges.
I'm also skeptical on expansion. We already have a very difficult road to win this conference. Like it or not our program history isn't as shiny when compared to this conference and the teams competing.
Basketball surplus helps to fund other sports at VU. Cutting the pie 20% (b-ball income) is sizable enough for our overly conservative board/president to start cutting other sports. It's happening all over college sports where Title 9 has erased men's sports teams (swimming, track and field etc).
No matter what the NCAA (puppets to $$) end up doing with RPI, we simply are not going to get 2-bid league status in the near term.
Two thumbs down on expansion. I foresee it leading to more cuts in VU men's teams and that's not ok.
I see both side of expansion case. Cutting up the already small pie even more could impact MVC athletics departments. But I do think there is a possibility of the league earning a 2-bids once every 4 years or so, when the Conference is particularly strong and other stars align. The league strength would need to continue to be strong like it was last season. No one in the Conference was a RPI drag on the rest of the league last season. That may change with Evansville and Drake (although I don't think Drake will be too bad) next season.
A lot of what hinges on the MVC earning 2 bids is the Selection Committee's Power Conference voters getting their heads out their @$$es and stop being so biased. With the Power Conferences moving to 20 game Conference schedules it will become even harder to get quality guarantee games on the road. The scheduling disparity is the greatest threat to all mid-majors.
I'd prefer a scenario where we start a scheduling alliance with the other Mid-Major Conferences where the Conferences agree to have their Top 2-4 teams play the other conferences top teams to give a scheduling boost. There would be all kinds of politics that would make it a head ache to happen but it may be the best for the Mid-Major Leagues. The only problem is that those match ups may be considered "bracket buster" type games. The committee keeps changing it's "criteria" which makes it tough to recommend solutions to the problem right now.
Quote from: VU2014 on July 05, 2018, 02:09:03 PM
I see both side of expansion case. Cutting up the already small pie even more could impact MVC athletics departments. But I do think there is a possibility of the league earning a 2-bids once every 4 years or so, when the Conference is particularly strong and other stars align. The league strength would need to continue to be strong like it was last season. No one in the Conference was a RPI drag on the rest of the league last season. That may change with Evansville and Drake (although I don't think Drake will be too bad) next season.
A lot of what hinges on the MVC earning 2 bids is the Selection Committee's Power Conference voters getting their heads out their @$$es and stop being so biased. With the Power Conferences moving to 20 game Conference schedules it will become even harder to get quality guarantee games on the road. The scheduling disparity is the greatest threat to all mid-majors.
I'd prefer a scenario where we start a scheduling alliance with the other Mid-Major Conferences where the Conferences agree to have their Top 2-4 teams play the other conferences top teams to give a scheduling boost. There would be all kinds of politics that would make it a head ache to happen but it may be the best for the Mid-Major Leagues. The only problem is that those match ups may be considered "bracket buster" type games. The committee keeps changing it's "criteria" which makes it tough to recommend solutions to the problem right now.
NCAA selection committee members:
Committee Chair - Bruce Rasmussen - Creighton AD
Vice-Chair - Bernard Muir - Stanford AD
Mitch Barnhardt - Kentucky AD
Tom Burnett - Southland Conference Commissioner
Janet Cone - UNC-Asheville AD
Tom Holmoe - BYU AD
Jim Phillips - Northwestern AD
Jim Schaus - Ohio AD
Craig Thompson - MWC Commissioner
Kevin White - Duke AD
So half of the committee this past year was made up of members from non-power leagues, and they would only have to leave when it came to either selection or seeding of their school, or schools in the case of conference commissioners. I don't think it's biased voting from power conference members (the Big 12 had no one on the committee and got 7/10 teams in, while the Big 10 did have a member and managed just 4/14), but I do agree that a lack of scheduling opportunities (as long as the committee is bent on including the RPI at all) hurts mid-major leagues. This is why they should go purely to an analytical approach. Then it doesn't matter what the schedule winds up being. If you play well enough during the season against your schedule, you're in. If you don't, you're out.
Quote from: IrishDawg on July 05, 2018, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on July 05, 2018, 02:09:03 PM
I see both side of expansion case. Cutting up the already small pie even more could impact MVC athletics departments. But I do think there is a possibility of the league earning a 2-bids once every 4 years or so, when the Conference is particularly strong and other stars align. The league strength would need to continue to be strong like it was last season. No one in the Conference was a RPI drag on the rest of the league last season. That may change with Evansville and Drake (although I don't think Drake will be too bad) next season.
A lot of what hinges on the MVC earning 2 bids is the Selection Committee's Power Conference voters getting their heads out their @$$es and stop being so biased. With the Power Conferences moving to 20 game Conference schedules it will become even harder to get quality guarantee games on the road. The scheduling disparity is the greatest threat to all mid-majors.
I'd prefer a scenario where we start a scheduling alliance with the other Mid-Major Conferences where the Conferences agree to have their Top 2-4 teams play the other conferences top teams to give a scheduling boost. There would be all kinds of politics that would make it a head ache to happen but it may be the best for the Mid-Major Leagues. The only problem is that those match ups may be considered "bracket buster" type games. The committee keeps changing it's "criteria" which makes it tough to recommend solutions to the problem right now.
NCAA selection committee members:
Committee Chair - Bruce Rasmussen - Creighton AD
Vice-Chair - Bernard Muir - Stanford AD
Mitch Barnhardt - Kentucky AD
Tom Burnett - Southland Conference Commissioner
Janet Cone - UNC-Asheville AD
Tom Holmoe - BYU AD
Jim Phillips - Northwestern AD
Jim Schaus - Ohio AD
Craig Thompson - MWC Commissioner
Kevin White - Duke AD
So half of the committee this past year was made up of members from non-power leagues, and they would only have to leave when it came to either selection or seeding of their school, or schools in the case of conference commissioners. I don't think it's biased voting from power conference members (the Big 12 had no one on the committee and got 7/10 teams in, while the Big 10 did have a member and managed just 4/14), but I do agree that a lack of scheduling opportunities (as long as the committee is bent on including the RPI at all) hurts mid-major leagues. This is why they should go purely to an analytical approach. Then it doesn't matter what the schedule winds up being. If you play well enough during the season against your schedule, you're in. If you don't, you're out.
Very much appreciate the time you put into presenting the information. Makes us think.
The concern I have is that the data input is where the bias takes hold. Even though we have stock at the table on this board, maybe it's effectively not true voting stock by the time it reaches the Mid Major board members?
RPI, SOS etc etc
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on July 05, 2018, 12:54:45 PMQuote from: wh on July 05, 2018, 12:44:18 PMI would welcome a broader discussion about the pros and cons of MVC expansion. Adding 2 teams to a 10-team league to get 2 bids instead of 1 would be great, but what if it doesn't happen? Our odds of winning the league go from 1:10 to 1:12, and probably worse since the programs we would add would be proven winners and highly competitive. Moreover, our share of tournament pot money goes from 10% to 8 (a 20% cut in dollars). It seems like a very high risk strategy, especially since the NCAA and power conferences are doing everything in their power to reduce mid-major at-larges.
I'm also skeptical on expansion. We already have a very difficult road to win this conference. Like it or not our program history isn't as shiny when compared to this conference and the teams competing. Basketball surplus helps to fund other sports at VU. Cutting the pie 20% (b-ball income) is sizable enough for our overly conservative board/president to start cutting other sports. It's happening all over college sports where Title 9 has erased men's sports teams (swimming, track and field etc). No matter what the NCAA (puppets to $$) end up doing with RPI, we simply are not going to get 2-bid league status in the near term. Two thumbs down on expansion. I foresee it leading to more cuts in VU men's teams and that's not ok.
Our program history such as it is is what got us into the MVC. I don't see any reason to denigrate it. As for tournament credits each team added would reduce each team's take per year per game played by about $2500-3000. That's notinsignificant but it's far from devastating. A good donation drive would raise many times that amount. As it stands one deep tourney run (Hi Loyola) or one year with multiple bids out of every five six puts the financial fears to bed for everyone for several years. Yes, Loyola would have struggled to gain an at-large bid but that is largely because their schedule was utter crap thanks in part to NC State. This year's schedule is shaping up to be much better. If you give last year's Loyola this year's schedule and they performed similarly, they would have had no trouble.
Now let's look into how expansion could have (and can) help this situation. One of the teams that is a lock for the MVC in any expansion scenario is Murray State. The Racers went 2-0 against the MVC's top 3 and narrowly lost to Auburn (4 seed) and MTSU who would have been an at large had their league been better than 15th in RPI. It is widely believed that Murray State would have given everyone at least 3 more Q1\Q2 games. That would have been huge for Loyola and probably given us 3 NCAA\NIT teams which would have been huge for the conference's profile. Adding them would be a huge help for the conference. As long as the other addition isn't a total dud (the problem has always been and continues to be the location of a suitable 12th team) the conference would be fine and in a great position to log multiple bids.
Now let's look at the outlook for next year, The league is getting better deeper and more talented. The top 4 are better than last year. I think UNI Indiana State and Valpo can all say the same, and Missouri State shouldn't be any worse especially if their new coach can actually coach. Drake and Evansville may not be as bad as we all feared but it's going to be up to the top 8 to pull their weight I think. If they can do that the MVC's metrics will look as good or better this year. Loyola and the MVC are now more trusted names. The post-Wichita State concerns are largely laid to rest. If an MVC team plays itself on to the bubble they are now more likely to get the nod than they were last year. The conference through expansion namely by adding Murray State should be trying to help its teams reach that goal. Illinois State is scheduling like it wants an at-large. UNI always does Loyola Missouri State and even Evansville are beefing up their schedules. If Loyola and ISUr or UNI or MSU do well in the nonconference and separate themselves in Valley play they will be firmly in the conversation.
Loyola's run was an indication and a testament to the endurance and strength of the league as is, but it is also a sign that now is the time to go for it both in terms of bids and expansion where we can get some very strong programs. To fall to do so is to repeat the mistake of the HL following Butler's runs. They didn't strike when they had the opportunity, and they paid for it. The MVC may not pay for complacency and inaction in the same way via program defections but it risks irrelevance as the 7th or 8th league in a world where 6 or 7 conferences matter. The right additions could give us a fighting chance of that not happening or at least we can slow it down. Loyola's run also taught us to look at a program not only for what it is but what it could be. That's why an NKU type addition makes a lot of sense. Just because they don't look like the best #12 now doesn't mean they can't be later. If Dayton Belmont and SLU aren't willing we could do a lot worse than rolling the dice on NKU.
The MVC may never be more than a 2 bid league but that's a heck of a lot better than where we've come from. The whole point of this move was to ensure that what happened in 2016 never happened again--that our season would never again come down to three neutral site games in March. We should be supporting and leading the charge to ensure that all actions (scheduling alliances pod scheduling and yes expansion) are taken to accomplish this goal. That, to me, is the case for expansion.
I have to agree with VUGrad1314, many of you are looking at this through the HL experience. We are now in a league that CONSISTENTLY wins their first round game (9 years in a row). We are certainly not getting less money in the MVC even if we add 2 teams. If the odds are that we only get 2 bids every 4 years we still come out ahead in virtually every scenario. The league would have to slip to HL levels to hurt us financially and I don't think that is in the cards... unless the conference maintains the status quo and gets hurt by defections.
11 teams (Murray State)
20 game regular season (I still like the idea of playing everybody twice)
11th place team doesn't make the conference tournament (whatever you do, don't get last)
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 05, 2018, 08:57:36 PM
Our program history such as it is is what got us into the MVC. I don't see any reason to denigrate it. As for tournament credits each team added would reduce each team's take per year per game played by about $2500-3000. That's notinsignificant but it's far from devastating. A good donation drive would raise many times that amount. As it stands one deep tourney run (Hi Loyola) or one year with multiple bids out of every five six puts the financial fears to bed for everyone for several years.
The Loyola Ramblers' March Madness success has earned $8.5 million for their 10-team Missouri Valley Conference, to be paid out by the NCAA over the next six years. That amounts to roughly $140,000 per school, per year — more than any of the universities make annually from the conference's media deal with ESPN.
http://awfulannouncing.com/ncaa/loyolas-final-four-run-means-years-of-increased-revenue-for-missouri-valley-conference-members.html
Here's the hit Valpo would have taken from this year's shares if the pot were to be divided by 12 instead of 10:
10-team league: $850,000/team
12-team league: $708,000/team
Loss $142,000/team over 6 years or $24,000/year
Here's another way of looking at it. The MVC budgets based on 2 NCAA tournament shares/year. So...
10-team league: $340,000/year/team
12-team league: $283,000/year/team
That's a $57,000/loss/team/year every year. That's anything but chicken feed for an athletic budget the size of Valpo's
It might be wise to wait for the MVC to wait for the BE and P5 to make their next move in expansion, before adding an additional school. If the Big East passes on SLU and opts for a Davidson, Dayton or St. Bonnies, maybe the MVC could lure SLU. The Big East has stated their intention to move to 11 schools, because they want to go to a 20 game schedule.
Murrary State, Belmont, NKU or any other possible future school from a lower league aren't going anywhere. Something that needs to be factor these days more than ever is academic profile. There will be units awarded to Conferences for programs APR scores above 975. I know Belmont received a perfect 1000 APR score as did VU a few years ago.
Quote from: wh on July 06, 2018, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 05, 2018, 08:57:36 PM
Our program history such as it is is what got us into the MVC. I don't see any reason to denigrate it. As for tournament credits each team added would reduce each team's take per year per game played by about $2500-3000. That's notinsignificant but it's far from devastating. A good donation drive would raise many times that amount. As it stands one deep tourney run (Hi Loyola) or one year with multiple bids out of every five six puts the financial fears to bed for everyone for several years.
The Loyola Ramblers' March Madness success has earned $8.5 million for their 10-team Missouri Valley Conference, to be paid out by the NCAA over the next six years. That amounts to roughly $140,000 per school, per year — more than any of the universities make annually from the conference's media deal with ESPN.
http://awfulannouncing.com/ncaa/loyolas-final-four-run-means-years-of-increased-revenue-for-missouri-valley-conference-members.html
Here's the hit Valpo would have taken from this year's shares if the pot were to be divided by 12 instead of 10:
10-team league: $850,000/team
12-team league: $708,000/team
Loss $142,000/team over 6 years or $24,000/year
Here's another way of looking at it. The MVC budgets based on 2 NCAA tournament shares/year. So...
10-team league: $340,000/year/team
12-team league: $283,000/year/team
That's a $57,000/loss/team/year every year. That's anything but chicken feed for an athletic budget the size of Valpo's
I'm not sure what our agreement was with the MVC when we joined. Did we agree to not receive any of the Tournament shares from Wichita State's past runs when we joined? If that was the case then the future schools may not get any of the pie from that run. Something that needs to be considered is that we'd dividing up the MVC TV revenue as well.
Right, TV revenue is a concern, but the Murray State fanbase is large and extremely devoted. I can see them consuming a great deal of MVC content. Plus, the market they inhabit (Carbondale\Murray\Paducah\Cape Girardeau) isn't exactly small potatoes. Having the two best programs in that area is a good thing. The second addition, assuming it is one of Belmont\SLU\Dayton\Wright State\NKU will allow the MVC to tap into a larger city market which will help TV revenue if they can get an established or rising brand. Think of it like how adding Loyola helped the circulation of MVC content, but on a smaller scale.
As for the Big East, I think SLU will be #1 on their list if the program shows signs of life and they can't get UCONN. Creighton sticks out like a sore thumb in their footprint, and they need that bridge to Omaha.
Quote from: wh on July 06, 2018, 10:12:39 AMHere's the hit Valpo would have taken from this year's shares if the pot were to be divided by 12 instead of 10:
10-team league: $850,000/team HL 10-team league: $170,000/team Increase of $680,000
12-team league: $708,000/team HL 12-team league: $141,500/team Increase of $566,500
Loss $142,000/team over 6 years or $24,000/year
Here's another way of looking at it. The MVC budgets based on 2 NCAA tournament shares/year. So...
10-team league: $340,000/year/team HL 10-team league: $170,000/year/team Increase of $170,000
12-team league: $283,000/year/team HL 12-team league: $141,500/year/team Increase of $141,500
That's a $57,000/loss/team/year every year. That's anything but chicken feed for an athletic budget the size of Valpo's
I really don't know how you can associate this with a "hit". Had we stayed in the HL with the Butler money gone we would basically be getting squat with no foreseeable opportunity to make more than squat. I am very concerned that our new conference doesn't repeat the same mistake of the HL by standing pat and going stagnate waiting to be picked apart. I'd rather be in a 12-team MVC making $283,000 than a 10-team league making $170,000.
You guys are forgetting also that programs do not receive their tournament credits as a lump sum but over a rolling six year period. That's why the number I used is so small, and that's why at large bids matter. You're not receiving 1\10th of a full credit per year per game played but rather 1\6th of 1\10th of a credit per year per game played or 1\60th of a credit per year per game played. Take the credit split it six ways then take each of those and split it 10 ways or 12 ways or whatever for every single game your conference plays. That is a schools yearly take compounded by the number of games played over the six year rolling period. Getting a program or two that gets you closer to gaining at large bids and makes the league more competitive helps a league like the MVC more than it hurts. The upside far outweighs the downside risk
Quote from: FWalum on July 06, 2018, 12:33:29 PM
I really don't know how you can associate this with a "hit". Had we stayed in the HL with the Butler money gone we would basically be getting squat with no foreseeable opportunity to make more than squat. I am very concerned that our new conference doesn't repeat the same mistake of the HL by standing pat and going stagnate waiting to be picked apart. I'd rather be in a 12-team MVC making $283,000 than a 10-team league making $170,000.
It's obvious that Valpo got out of the HL at the right time. It had become a perennial one-bid league with no teams capable of earning additional credits by advancing in the tourney. Amazing how that league declined from 2011 to 2017.
What happened in 2016 must have (rightly) set off alarm bells. If THAT team couldn't get an at-large it was reasonable to ask whether ANY HL team could have. We're very fortunate Wichita State sought greener pastures when they did. The HL's decline really is a shame because I'm sure they could have gotten schools like Murray State Belmont or at least the Dakotas had they been more proactive. Maybe that would have been enough to keep Butler from jumping to the A-10. It very likely would have kept Valpo and probably Loyola interested too. As much as we like to blame LeCrone I think greed and small thinking by the HL university presidents doomed the league as much as anything else. I don't want to see that happen again in the MVC. The time is now for the league to strike. Earlier moves may have even saved Creighton, or at least Wichita State.
Quote from: EddieCabot on July 06, 2018, 01:15:23 PMIt's obvious that Valpo got out of the HL at the right time. It had become a perennial one-bid league with no teams capable of earning additional credits by advancing in the tourney. Amazing how that league declined from 2011 to 2017.
The Horizon League decline has been breathtaking! The only thing I remember being comparable might have been the WAC but I think that it was a slower process. Speaking of the WAC I think they were at #15 and the HL at 27 or 29 last year. Goes to show how quickly things can change.
Quote from: justducky on July 06, 2018, 02:06:26 PM
Quote from: EddieCabot on July 06, 2018, 01:15:23 PMIt's obvious that Valpo got out of the HL at the right time. It had become a perennial one-bid league with no teams capable of earning additional credits by advancing in the tourney. Amazing how that league declined from 2011 to 2017.
The Horizon League decline has been breathtaking! The only thing I remember being comparable might have been the WAC but I think that it was a slower process. Speaking of the WAC I think they were at #15 and the HL at 27 or 29 last year. Goes to show how quickly things can change.
The WAC also had the Mountain West eat about 1\2 or 2\3 of their league to precipitate that decline. The HL's fall is much harder to explain.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 06, 2018, 02:11:10 PMThe WAC also had the Mountain West eat about 1\2 or 2\3 of their league to precipitate that decline. The HL's fall is much harder to explain.
No-----I can explain it in one word and that word is LeCrone.
Quote from: justducky on July 06, 2018, 02:06:26 PM
Quote from: EddieCabot on July 06, 2018, 01:15:23 PMIt's obvious that Valpo got out of the HL at the right time. It had become a perennial one-bid league with no teams capable of earning additional credits by advancing in the tourney. Amazing how that league declined from 2011 to 2017.
The Horizon League decline has been breathtaking! The only thing I remember being comparable might have been the WAC but I think that it was a slower process. Speaking of the WAC I think they were at #15 and the HL at 27 or 29 last year. Goes to show how quickly things can change.
The Horizon League last season:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/XdZFcEqkgT6vu/giphy.gif)
Quote from: justducky on July 06, 2018, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 06, 2018, 02:11:10 PMThe WAC also had the Mountain West eat about 1\2 or 2\3 of their league to precipitate that decline. The HL's fall is much harder to explain.
No-----I can explain it in one word and that word is LeCrone.
How does that guy still have a job? It's amazing how one guy can be so bad at what he does.
Quote from: a3uge on July 06, 2018, 08:14:44 PM
How does that guy still have a job? It's amazing how one guy can be so bad at what he does.
I don't think he's a particularly good Commish but I'll give him credit on the OU and NKU adds. OU fans may be obnoxious, but at least the fans that do get to show up to their games care about their team unlike the majority of the commuter schools in the HL. They were a bit of a "obvious" add once lecrone's favorite child BU left him. The NKU add was smart but the timing of the add was idiotic because it hurt their only school who had a shot at a at-large bid. He also created the Horizon League Network which was awesome for a few years till ESPN3 supplanted it's purpose. He made the completely idiotic move of adding OOEE-PPOO-EE to the conference. The Motor City Dumpster fire was a bit of a disaster but at least it was a quick cash grab for the HL.
I'm just so thankful that the Valley is our home now. It's a great Mid-Major Conference and it's comprised of like minded fan-bases/programs.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 06, 2018, 12:54:29 PM
You guys are forgetting also that programs do not receive their tournament credits as a lump sum but over a rolling six year period. That's why the number I used is so small, and that's why at large bids matter. You're not receiving 1\10th of a full credit per year per game played but rather 1\6th of 1\10th of a credit per year per game played or 1\60th of a credit per year per game played. Take the credit split it six ways then take each of those and split it 10 ways or 12 ways or whatever for every single game your conference plays. That is a schools yearly take compounded by the number of games played over the six year rolling period. Getting a program or two that gets you closer to gaining at large bids and makes the league more competitive helps a league like the MVC more than it hurts. The upside far outweighs the downside risk
What you're forgetting is that every year the conference receives not only a 1/6 share of the current year's pot, it also receives a 1/6 share of 5 prior pots. Thus, the annual loss from dividing by 12 instead of 10 doesn't affect just 1/6 of 1 annual pot, it affects 1/6 of 6 annual pots.
6
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 06, 2018, 01:42:25 PM
What happened in 2016 must have (rightly) set off alarm bells. If THAT team couldn't get an at-large it was reasonable to ask whether ANY HL team could have. We're very fortunate Wichita State sought greener pastures when they did. The HL's decline really is a shame because I'm sure they could have gotten schools like Murray State Belmont or at least the Dakotas had they been more proactive. Maybe that would have been enough to keep Butler from jumping to the A-10. It very likely would have kept Valpo and probably Loyola interested too. As much as we like to blame LeCrone I think greed and small thinking by the HL university presidents doomed the league as much as anything else. I don't want to see that happen again in the MVC. The time is now for the league to strike. Earlier moves may have even saved Creighton, or at least Wichita State.
Butler would not have stayed in the Horizon for a Murray State or Belmont when the A10 had Xavier, VCU, SLU (with Majerus) and Temple. The A10 earned 5 bids that year. The Horizon, even with both Murray State and Belmont, without Butler would have been a one-bid league that year. Creighton would not have passed on the Big East invite regardless of how proactive the MVC was. Wichita State wanted to be in the Big East too, but the AAC gets more in TV money than the MVC, is a multi-bid league every year (despite Memphis and UConn being uncharacteristically awful) and the schools they are competing against now spend like Wichita State does. In the 16-17 season, WSU spent $6.4M on men's basketball. The next closest school in the MVC was at $3.4M. Unless the rest of the schools in the MVC were willing to give WSU Gonzaga-like power, they were moving on as well. If Loyola continues its success and spending on the program continues to rise, don't be surprised if the Big East calls them.
SLU would be a more ideal candidate because they already spend, don't duplicate TV markets and have a bigger gym than Loyola, but if a school can show its commitment to basketball and that it can earn the league more money than it is currently through TV or tourney shares, other leagues will poke around, just like the MVC is with Murray State and Belmont.
I very strongly doubt that Loyola would be in play for the Big East due to the presence of DePaul. I also think a conference of that caliber would want to see them sustain their success before inviting them. I think the Big East has the same problem that the MVC has: they lack one more suitable and willing potential addition within their footprint.
The Big East has a footprint? Their only "footprint" in Catholicism. (oh, and Butler! ;))
If the MVC does expand in the future, I wonder if this will have an impact on them getting in or not. Murray's AD was pushing hard & publicly to lobby the MVC last year. It looks like he's out. Maybe the future AD won't share the same vision.
https://twitter.com/TheAdamBWells/status/1017854347009552384
That would be a tremendous loss for the MVC. And also for Murray State. This is not a good day for expansion hopes.
Quote from: VU2014 on July 13, 2018, 03:51:14 PM
If the MVC does expand in the future, I wonder if this will have an impact on them getting in or not. Murray's AD was pushing hard & publicly to lobby the MVC last year. It looks like he's out. Maybe the future AD won't share the same vision.
[tweet]1017854347009552384[/tweet]
What a name! Velvet Milkman!
I guess that is better than Looklikeda Milkman.
VUGrad1314 - if you asked the Big East higher up about dumping DePaul and adding Loyola to their conference, they would do it immediately. DePaul is an embarrassment to the Big East.
What does that have to do with the MVC? Or expansion? Or Murray State?
Velvet Milkman would make a great special guest villain in a Batman episode!
Not sure. My bad. I really hate where DePaul is and I have utmost respect for the Ramblers.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 13, 2018, 09:54:00 PM
What does that have to do with the MVC? Or expansion? Or Murray State?
Butler bailed on the A10 after only one season to go to the Big East. If the Big East were to dump DePaul and offer that slot (and the units that a multiple bid league would offer) to the Ramblers, don't you think it would impact the MVC if Loyola jumps?
Of course but then the MVC might get DePaul and it can rebuild its brand and\or Murray State and be just fine. Of course a Loyola-DePaul swap is never going to happen. The Big East can get 5-7 bids even with a bad DePaul and there's no reason whatsoever to kick DePaul out on academic grounds.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 13, 2018, 10:59:54 PM
Of course but then the MVC might get DePaul and it can rebuild its brand and\or Murray State and be just fine. Of course a Loyola-DePaul swap is never going to happen. The Big East can get 5-7 bids even with a bad DePaul and there's no reason whatsoever to kick DePaul out on academic grounds.
Exactly. And I doubt the swap scenario would even be considered in St. Louis.
Again I say regarding Loyola: One year does not equate to a dynasty. Remember a few years ago when everyone was saying what a mistake it was for the MVC to bring in Loyola?
Quote from: valpo64 on July 14, 2018, 11:51:33 AM
Again I say regarding Loyola: One year does not equate to a dynasty. Remember a few years ago when everyone was saying what a mistake it was for the MVC to bring in Loyola?
Yeah - and the Big East wouldn't swap the schools right now anyway. DePaul is horrible, and Loyola should be good again this year, but a school doesn't become an attractive candidate to other leagues until they show they can make the tournament and win games consistently, which is more than a 1 or 2 year run. If Loyola does that, then they could very well be offered a spot by the Big East or another league. Plus DePaul got a brand spanking new arena last year and actually did take some steps in the right direction.
In terms of the MVC, I would be surprised if Murray State did an about face on trying to get in the MVC, but their entrance is again going to depend on their consistent success as a program. Right now they're on about 4 year cycle to have a good, borderline at-large level team. If they can shorten that to every couple, I think the MVC programs will overlook the public-private balance and let them in.
I think they're going to have about as good a team this year as they had last year which was a borderline at large caliber team. As I've said before January Morant is a special talent.
I think Loyola is taking the right steps for sustainability. They are keeping Moser and they are recruiting better, and perhaps they can tap into the Chicagoland talent. Unlike Valpo in 1998, they are taking advantage of their success.
As for DePaul, besides a new arena what correct steps are they taking? They may have the worst AD out of all the power basketball conferences. Their record the past decade has been embarrassing.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 14, 2018, 10:18:30 PM
I think Loyola is taking the right steps for sustainability. They are keeping Moser and they are recruiting better, and perhaps they can tap into the Chicagoland talent. Unlike Valpo in 1998, they are taking advantage of their success.
As for DePaul, besides a new arena what correct steps are they taking? They may have the worst AD out of all the power basketball conferences. Their record the past decade has been embarrassing.
Can we stop treating a Sweet 16 run and a Final 4 run as the same thing?
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 14, 2018, 10:18:30 PM
I think Loyola is taking the right steps for sustainability. They are keeping Moser and they are recruiting better, and perhaps they can tap into the Chicagoland talent. Unlike Valpo in 1998, they are taking advantage of their success.
As for DePaul, besides a new arena what correct steps are they taking? They may have the worst AD out of all the power basketball conferences. Their record the past decade has been embarrassing.
Depaul's Kenpom rating was in the top 100 last year (best since 2007), and they got a commitment from Romeo Weems, one of the 2, if not the top guy out of the state of Michigan in 2019 over Michigan State. Agree on their AD being the worst out there.
FWIW, every mid-major team that made their initial F4 runs kept their coaches around the following seasons, but assuming Loyola stays relevant and the school doesn't start spending like a Wichita State, eventually the right job will come along and Moser will leave. Sustainability comes from being able to be successful without it having to be a particular coach at the school. Loyola could very well be that kind of program based on their available endowment, but it had been 33 years since their last tournament appearance (and this was Moser's 7th season), so from a historical perspective they're currently closer to George Mason (and I don't think Loyola's at their level yet) than to VCU, Butler, Wichita State or Gonzaga.
Quote from: IrishDawg on July 15, 2018, 03:55:36 AM
FWIW, every mid-major team that made their initial F4 runs kept their coaches around the following seasons, but assuming Loyola stays relevant and the school doesn't start spending like a Wichita State, eventually the right job will come along and Moser will leave. Sustainability comes from being able to be successful without it having to be a particular coach at the school. Loyola could very well be that kind of program based on their available endowment, but it had been 33 years since their last tournament appearance (and this was Moser's 7th season), so from a historical perspective they're currently closer to George Mason (and I don't think Loyola's at their level yet) than to VCU, Butler, Wichita State or Gonzaga.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8wu0kYJbKs
Wow, a lot of hate toward Loyola here. Not sure why. I was really impressed with their play, coordination and attitude. They represented the MVC proudly. I wish Valpo would be a flash in the pan like Loyola.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 15, 2018, 08:43:44 AM
Wow, a lot of hate toward Loyola here. Not sure why. I was really impressed with their play, coordination and attitude. They represented the MVC proudly. I wish Valpo would be a flash in the pan like Loyola.
100% agree. I'm excited for their success (for now)!
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 15, 2018, 08:43:44 AM
Wow, a lot of hate toward Loyola here. Not sure why. I was really impressed with their play, coordination and attitude. They represented the MVC proudly. I wish Valpo would be a flash in the pan like Loyola.
Talking about Loyola's place in college basketball from a historical perspective has very little to do with the team last season. They were, as you said, a true team with good players, good coaching and great chemistry. Their run was what fans all over college basketball dream of for their team each year. However, prior to the run last season, they hadn't made a tournament since 1985. Valpo had made it 9 times in that time. In my opinion, even had Gonzaga not made their run a couple of years ago, their consistency in simply making the tournament 20 straight years is far harder than a F4 run in a single year. Loyola is really going to be tested mentally this season. Heck Northwestern simply made the tournament and won a single game 2 years ago, came back with over 83% of their scoring (Loyola brings back 60% of theirs next year), a preseason top 25 ranking, and struggled mightily in what was a weaker than normal Big Ten.
That is not to say Loyola can't be just as good, if not better next year (and they were a
good team this year). But this year is going to test them in completely different ways. They're going from the hunter to the hunted, they're going to have people telling them how great they are all offseason, and they're going to have a media following as the best team in Chicago, which can be mentally taxing if things don't continue to go well. This isn't me "hating" on Loyola, though you are welcome to disagree.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 15, 2018, 08:43:44 AM
Wow, a lot of hate toward Loyola here. Not sure why. I was really impressed with their play, coordination and attitude. They represented the MVC proudly. I wish Valpo would be a flash in the pan like Loyola.
I don't "hate" Loyola, but I do find all the gushing over their success somewhat over the top. They were a complete joke the entire time we were in the HL - a huge drag on conference RPI and contributed nothing positive. They were consistently terrible for decades prior to that. After several more years of floundering around they finally get it together thanks to a new arena, a priveleged location, and a gifted, unearned promotion to a higher rated conference. To their credit, they took advantage of their situation and turned it into something positive, but a Cinderella story they aren't. Now, we have people conjecturing about Loyola parlaying a 1-year success story (as impressive as it may be) into a move to the Big East. Are you kidding me?
If ever there was a program that personified the term "FLASH IN THE PAN" it was Valpo after the 1998 Sweet Sixteen appearance.
Wh - Loyola is far from ready for a move to a conference like the Big East. The sad part is that DePaul leaches off the revenue from that conference. Valpo used to be the leach for the mid Con in the late 80s; in fact Schabel at that time promoted it!
I hate to say it, but I will say that a Final Four and a historic national championship for Loyola is more impressive than Valpo's body of work.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 15, 2018, 06:20:24 PM
Wh - Loyola is far from ready for a move to a conference like the Big East. The sad part is that DePaul leaches off the revenue from that conference. Valpo used to be the leach for the mid Con in the late 80s; in fact Schabel at that time promoted it!
I hate to say it, but I will say that a Final Four and a historic national championship for Loyola is more impressive than Valpo's body of work.
No argument here. Sustained excellence is very close but no cigar.
Quote from: bbtds on July 15, 2018, 06:04:56 PM
If ever there was a program that personified the term "FLASH IN THE PAN" it was Valpo after the 1998 Sweet Sixteen appearance.
I wouldn't call the Valpo's S16 run a total "flash in the pan". As frustrating as it is that Harre and the leadership at the time didn't seriously invest in the program and seize the potential momentum, but that era of Valpo Basketball did build the foundation for the program. It gave the program credibility and built Valpo into a name brand Mid-Major institution.
Valpo went to postseason since then, but we haven't achieve the success we hoped for since.
George Mason's run was more of what I'd consider a flash in the pan, because they haven't done much since. Valpo has grown into strong mid-major program, which isn't nothing.
Let's stop "knighting" Loyola on this board. Yes, give them credit for what they accomplished but let's not flatter them like they are some mid-major powerhouse that does this every single season. They are an asset to this conference and rival. I want us to kick their @$$ and beat them next season. Let's hope a fiery rivalry builds up over the next few years.
Loyola may have ignited a spark in a Chicago college basketball interest, which has certainly been lacking for the past 25 years. They have a new practice facility and an air conditioned arena - they are making a committment for the future.
Air Conditioning wins championships[emoji769]
Besides Valpo, what other MVC school does not have AC in their primary sports facility? We need to step it up
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 15, 2018, 09:27:44 PMWe need to step it up
I hope you are using a collective "we" that includes us as members of this board and not just a royal "we."
AC for the ARC fundin care of
Kris Sanders, Administrative Asst
Athletics Recreation Center
1009 Union Street
Valparaiso, IN 46383
Quote from: VU2014 on July 15, 2018, 06:55:04 PM
Quote from: bbtds on July 15, 2018, 06:04:56 PM
If ever there was a program that personified the term "FLASH IN THE PAN" it was Valpo after the 1998 Sweet Sixteen appearance.
I wouldn't call the Valpo's S16 run a total "flash in the pan". As frustrating as it is that Harre and the leadership at the time didn't seriously invest in the program and seize the potential momentum, but that era of Valpo Basketball did build the foundation for the program. It gave the program credibility and built Valpo into a name brand Mid-Major institution.
Valpo went to postseason since then, but we haven't achieve the success we hoped for since.
George Mason's run was more of what I'd consider a flash in the pan, because they haven't done much since. Valpo has grown into strong mid-major program, which isn't nothing.
Let's stop "knighting" Loyola on this board. Yes, give them credit for what they accomplished but let's not flatter them like they are some mid-major powerhouse that does this every single season. They are an asset to this conference and rival. I want us to kick their @$$ and beat them next season. Let's hope a fiery rivalry builds up over the next few years.
I would say the Drews built the Valpo program. They didn't get much help at all from the Valpo BOD, president (Harre) or the other teams in the Mid-Con conference.
Quote from: bbtds on July 16, 2018, 12:26:04 PMQuote from: VU2014 on July 15, 2018, 06:55:04 PMQuote from: bbtds on July 15, 2018, 06:04:56 PMIf ever there was a program that personified the term "FLASH IN THE PAN" it was Valpo after the 1998 Sweet Sixteen appearance.
I wouldn't call the Valpo's S16 run a total "flash in the pan". As frustrating as it is that Harre and the leadership at the time didn't seriously invest in the program and seize the potential momentum, but that era of Valpo Basketball did build the foundation for the program. It gave the program credibility and built Valpo into a name brand Mid-Major institution. Valpo went to postseason since then, but we haven't achieve the success we hoped for since. George Mason's run was more of what I'd consider a flash in the pan, because they haven't done much since. Valpo has grown into strong mid-major program, which isn't nothing. Let's stop "knighting" Loyola on this board. Yes, give them credit for what they accomplished but let's not flatter them like they are some mid-major powerhouse that does this every single season. They are an asset to this conference and rival. I want us to kick their @$$ and beat them next season. Let's hope a fiery rivalry builds up over the next few years.
I would say the Drews built the Valpo program. They didn't get much help at all from the Valpo BOD, president (Harre) or the other teams in the Mid-Con conference.
I wasgoing to rebut the George Mason claim because they made the A10 but it's 100% spot on. They haven't made the tournament or even recorded a top 100 RPI since they left the CAA. In fact, since then they have only 1 season where their RPI was better than 150 and just 2 years where they bested 200. Their last tournament bid was in 2010-2011 and their last top 100 finish was the year after that at 82. Yet, I still see their name and think of it as a program with some cache and gravitas. Such is the power of a final 4 run, I suppose.
Valpo will be receiving a huge, totally unanticipated, annually recurring windfall from the Loyola tournament run. Air condition the freaking ARC with it and stop passing around a hat like some street beggar. What's next - 50/50 raffles at home games to pay for a new ARC water heater. How embarrassing.
Quote from: wh on July 16, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
Valpo will be receiving a huge, totally unanticipated, annually recurring windfall from the Loyola tournament run. Air condition the freaking ARC with it and stop passing around a hat like some street beggar. What's next - 50/50 raffles at home games to pay for a new ARC water heater. How embarrassing.
BTW while you're at it, replace the freaking PA system that's been broken for the past 10 years, and don't pass the hat for that either. It's actually hard to believe that Valpo is a member of a prominent D1 conference, when it cries poor about the cost of building mechanicals and has a tin can out of the 1980's for a communication system.
God forbid that I would bring up the ARC parking FUBAR. I can only imagine the number of hats and 50/50 raffles it will take to bale the university out of that facility planning masterpiece.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 16, 2018, 12:51:43 PM
Quote from: bbtds on July 16, 2018, 12:26:04 PMQuote from: VU2014 on July 15, 2018, 06:55:04 PMQuote from: bbtds on July 15, 2018, 06:04:56 PMIf ever there was a program that personified the term "FLASH IN THE PAN" it was Valpo after the 1998 Sweet Sixteen appearance.
I wouldn't call the Valpo's S16 run a total "flash in the pan". As frustrating as it is that Harre and the leadership at the time didn't seriously invest in the program and seize the potential momentum, but that era of Valpo Basketball did build the foundation for the program. It gave the program credibility and built Valpo into a name brand Mid-Major institution. Valpo went to postseason since then, but we haven't achieve the success we hoped for since. George Mason's run was more of what I'd consider a flash in the pan, because they haven't done much since. Valpo has grown into strong mid-major program, which isn't nothing. Let's stop "knighting" Loyola on this board. Yes, give them credit for what they accomplished but let's not flatter them like they are some mid-major powerhouse that does this every single season. They are an asset to this conference and rival. I want us to kick their @$$ and beat them next season. Let's hope a fiery rivalry builds up over the next few years.
I would say the Drews built the Valpo program. They didn't get much help at all from the Valpo BOD, president (Harre) or the other teams in the Mid-Con conference.
I wasgoing to rebut the George Mason claim because they made the A10 but it's 100% spot on. They haven't made the tournament or even recorded a top 100 RPI since they left the CAA. In fact, since then they have only 1 season where their RPI was better than 150 and just 2 years where they bested 200. Their last tournament bid was in 2010-2011 and their last top 100 finish was the year after that at 82. Yet, I still see their name and think of it as a program with some cache and gravitas. Such is the power of a final 4 run, I suppose.
So GM's famous picture or his refusal to sign the Declaration of Independence had nothing to do with it?
Quote from: wh on July 16, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: wh on July 16, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
Valpo will be receiving a huge, totally unanticipated, annually recurring windfall from the Loyola tournament run. Air condition the freaking ARC with it and stop passing around a hat like some street beggar. What's next - 50/50 raffles at home games to pay for a new ARC water heater. How embarrassing.
BTW while you're at it, replace the freaking PA system that's been broken for the past 10 years, and don't pass the hat for that either. It's actually hard to believe that Valpo is a member of a prominent D1 conference, when it cries poor about the cost of building mechanicals and has a tin can out of the 1980's for a communication system.
God forbid that I would bring up the ARC parking FUBAR. I can only imagine the number of hats and 50/50 raffles it will take to bale the university out of that facility planning masterpiece.
wh is on a roll so I will just sit back, ENJOY, and try to behave. :thumbsup:
Am I seeing agreement that one of the big elements of Loyola turning their program around was making a serious investment in their facilities (despite the fact that they weren't selling out their old facility first?), which bolstered their recruiting and laid the groundwork for a Final Four run? That can't be! Our aging high-school gym is just fine! Ask anyone in the administration!
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 16, 2018, 12:51:43 PM
I wasgoing to rebut the George Mason claim because they made the A10 but it's 100% spot on. They haven't made the tournament or even recorded a top 100 RPI since they left the CAA. In fact, since then they have only 1 season where their RPI was better than 150 and just 2 years where they bested 200. Their last tournament bid was in 2010-2011 and their last top 100 finish was the year after that at 82. Yet, I still see their name and think of it as a program with some cache and gravitas. Such is the power of a final 4 run, I suppose.
That's the power of Jim Larranaga. 5 of the school's 6 tourney appearances (including the F4 run) were while he was there. After he left after the 2011 season, they've been irrelevant.
Jim Larranaga might be finding himself in hot water if the potential recruiting violations are true. Miami has been one of the major schools allegedly being probed by the FBI. It feels like Miami always finds themselves committing recruiting violations when it comes to their football program.
Quote from: VU2014 on July 16, 2018, 06:05:49 PM
Jim Larranaga might be finding himself in hot water if the potential recruiting violations are true. Miami has been one of the major schools allegedly being probed by the FBI. It feels like Miami always finds themselves committing recruiting violations when it comes to their football program.
Actually not so in the last 10-15 years. Miami's football program has not been at the top of the rankings but they also have been academically sound under a former University president, Donna Shalala, a former US Secretary of Health and Human Services, who demanded reform in the athletic department, and much more academic excellence from all U of Miami students. Shalala is no longer Miami president but she is currently a prof in Political Science.
Quote from: wh on July 16, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: wh on July 16, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
Valpo will be receiving a huge, totally unanticipated, annually recurring windfall from the Loyola tournament run. Air condition the freaking ARC with it and stop passing around a hat like some street beggar. What's next - 50/50 raffles at home games to pay for a new ARC water heater. How embarrassing.
BTW while you're at it, replace the freaking PA system that's been broken for the past 10 years, and don't pass the hat for that either. It's actually hard to believe that Valpo is a member of a prominent D1 conference, when it cries poor about the cost of building mechanicals and has a tin can out of the 1980's for a communication system.
God forbid that I would bring up the ARC parking FUBAR. I can only imagine the number of hats and 50/50 raffles it will take to bale the university out of that facility planning masterpiece.
I want to make it perfectly clear that no one in the athletic dept came up with or assumed it their idea to ask members of this message board to donate funds for any athletic dept needs. This was the sole idea of Mr. Valpo and myself and MLB agreed if funds were donated for a certain cause, as in the past, those funds would be used for the cause that they were designated for. MLB and Kris Sanders also agreed to communicate with me what the total of the fund for AC in the ARC was a certain times in the future. This athletic dept did not "pass the hat" in any way. Mr. Valpo and myself thought this was an excellent way to let members of this board "put their money where their mouth is" and quit assuming that the University must provide all the funding. If you don't feel you can make a donation, then don't. I really hope you are willing to step back and let others contribute without poo-pooing the athletic dept for letting it happen.
And for God's sake MLB and the athletic dept are not in charge of parking at VU. Other Ath. Depts at other universities may be in charge of some parking in some situations but no ath. dept is in charge of all parking at a university campus and Valpo's parking situation, as far as walking distance is not nearly as bad as ISUb, SIU, Loyola, Ball State, Notre Dame, Indiana, Purdue, UNI, all places I have attended games in the past.
Quote from: historyman on July 16, 2018, 11:40:42 PM
And for God's sake MLB and the athletic dept are not in charge of parking at VU. Other Ath. Depts at other universities may be in charge of some parking in some situations but no ath. dept is in charge of all parking at a university campus and Valpo's parking situation, as far as walking distance is not nearly as bad as ISUb, SIU, Loyola, Ball State, Notre Dame, Indiana, Purdue, UNI, all places I have attended games in the past.
As a visiting fan to some of the places you mentioned above (Ball State, Notre Dame, IU and Purdue), I'd put Valpo somewhere in the middle of that group in terms of convenience vs. size of the arena. Purdue and IU are the worst to park at in terms of normal walking distance to the arena, but their stadiums also hold 14-16k. Notre Dame you park in the football lots right next to Purcell, so it and Ball State I found were more convenient than Valpo's in the past. Notre Dame was playing North Carolina the last time I went, and I still had maybe a 2-3 minute walk from my car to the arena and the parking was free. Ball State I parked basically right next to Worthen. At Valpo I've had games where I was able to park pretty close, and others I've had a much further walk than I've experienced at least at Ball State and ND. I say this knowing that Butler's parking situation is worse than Valpo's unless you splurge for a parking pass or show up plenty early to park in the neighborhoods.
I will say that any athletic department's main concern should be getting people in the door and building a younger fan base vs. parking convenience. Modern amenities can help with that, but people will come if the team is good and the opponents are too.
Quote from: IrishDawg on July 17, 2018, 06:54:31 AM
Quote from: historyman on July 16, 2018, 11:40:42 PM
And for God's sake MLB and the athletic dept are not in charge of parking at VU. Other Ath. Depts at other universities may be in charge of some parking in some situations but no ath. dept is in charge of all parking at a university campus and Valpo's parking situation, as far as walking distance is not nearly as bad as ISUb, SIU, Loyola, Ball State, Notre Dame, Indiana, Purdue, UNI, all places I have attended games in the past.
As a visiting fan to some of the places you mentioned above (Ball State, Notre Dame, IU and Purdue), I'd put Valpo somewhere in the middle of that group in terms of convenience vs. size of the arena. Purdue and IU are the worst to park at in terms of normal walking distance to the arena, but their stadiums also hold 14-16k. Notre Dame you park in the football lots right next to Purcell, so it and Ball State I found were more convenient than Valpo's in the past. Notre Dame was playing North Carolina the last time I went, and I still had maybe a 2-3 minute walk from my car to the arena and the parking was free. Ball State I parked basically right next to Worthen. At Valpo I've had games where I was able to park pretty close, and others I've had a much further walk than I've experienced at least at Ball State and ND. I say this knowing that Butler's parking situation is worse than Valpo's unless you splurge for a parking pass or show up plenty early to park in the neighborhoods.
I will say that any athletic department's main concern should be getting people in the door and building a younger fan base vs. parking convenience. Modern amenities can help with that, but people will come if the team is good and the opponents are too.
You can forget anything you recall about the ARC parking situation when Butler played here, because none of it applies today. General parking has been eliminated in mass in every direction surrounding the ARC. Whole blocks of street parking in close proximity to the ARC have been turned into np-parking zones. It is a blatant (and bizarre) disregard for the paying public, and is unquestionably a contributing factor to Valpo's ongoing attendance free fall.
Quote from: wh on July 17, 2018, 09:31:21 AM
Quote from: IrishDawg on July 17, 2018, 06:54:31 AM
Quote from: historyman on July 16, 2018, 11:40:42 PM
And for God's sake MLB and the athletic dept are not in charge of parking at VU. Other Ath. Depts at other universities may be in charge of some parking in some situations but no ath. dept is in charge of all parking at a university campus and Valpo's parking situation, as far as walking distance is not nearly as bad as ISUb, SIU, Loyola, Ball State, Notre Dame, Indiana, Purdue, UNI, all places I have attended games in the past.
As a visiting fan to some of the places you mentioned above (Ball State, Notre Dame, IU and Purdue), I'd put Valpo somewhere in the middle of that group in terms of convenience vs. size of the arena. Purdue and IU are the worst to park at in terms of normal walking distance to the arena, but their stadiums also hold 14-16k. Notre Dame you park in the football lots right next to Purcell, so it and Ball State I found were more convenient than Valpo's in the past. Notre Dame was playing North Carolina the last time I went, and I still had maybe a 2-3 minute walk from my car to the arena and the parking was free. Ball State I parked basically right next to Worthen. At Valpo I've had games where I was able to park pretty close, and others I've had a much further walk than I've experienced at least at Ball State and ND. I say this knowing that Butler's parking situation is worse than Valpo's unless you splurge for a parking pass or show up plenty early to park in the neighborhoods.
I will say that any athletic department's main concern should be getting people in the door and building a younger fan base vs. parking convenience. Modern amenities can help with that, but people will come if the team is good and the opponents are too.
You can forget anything you recall about the ARC parking situation when Butler played here, because none of it applies today. General parking has been eliminated in mass in every direction surrounding the ARC. Whole blocks of street parking in close proximity to the ARC have been turned into np-parking zones. It is a blatant (and bizarre) disregard for the paying public, and is unquestionably a contributing factor to Valpo's ongoing attendance free fall.
If they would just allowed parking on the surrounding streets it would sollves a lot of the problems, but the city pushed hard to disallow street parking during games.
I think there was a hope that the addition (acquisition) of the hospital parking ramp would help solve the athletic parking problem. When the ramp was deemed unsafe that changed although I think that that area may have been resurfaced now.
Quote from: vu72 on July 17, 2018, 10:16:17 AM
I think there was a hope that the addition (acquisition) of the hospital parking ramp would help solve the athletic parking problem. When the ramp was deemed unsafe that changed although I think that that area may have been resurfaced now.
The empty lot where the hospital use to be would be ideal for parking but I seem to remember the city won't allow it to used for parking because it doesn't meet drainage code or something.
I've always been impressed how the University, and City of Valpo work together to solve these kind of problems....NOT!!!!!
Quote from: valpo64 on July 17, 2018, 11:11:25 AM
I've always been impressed how the University, and City of Valpo work together to solve these kind of problems....NOT!!!!!
This reminds me of this classic from Parks and Rec:
(https://writingexplained.org/wp-content/uploads/parks-and-rec-ron-swanson-quotes.gif)
IrishDawg, have you done parking at Xavier? If you can't get ahold of a STH parking pass, you're probably in for a brutal mile walk from the old, narrow neighborhood.
Quote from: may know on July 17, 2018, 02:04:58 PM
IrishDawg, have you done parking at Xavier? If you can't get ahold of a STH parking pass, you're probably in for a brutal mile walk from the old, narrow neighborhood.
I haven't, but I've heard the neighborhoods around Xavier's campus can be a little dicey. I have been to Creighton's arena and it can be a haul to walk there too unless you're willing to pay. That's a nice facility, though kind of bland from an aesthetic or historical prospective. Dayton's arena is nice as well, and at least when I went there it wasn't an awful walk to get to the arena from the parking lot.
Quote from: IrishDawg on July 17, 2018, 06:54:31 AMI'd put Valpo somewhere in the middle of that group in terms of convenience vs. size of the arena. Purdue and IU are the worst to park at in terms of normal walking distance to the arena, but their stadiums also hold 14-16k.
I don't think size of the arena should matter. Parking could also be convenient near a large arena if set up well from the beginning.
The reason many people go to smaller venue college games is because they don't want to deal with the large arenas like at IU, Purdue, ND, etc. and the parking and large crowd issues that come with going to one of their athletic department events.
Before this thread becomes another facilities thread, here are some thoughts on expansion. Let me know what you think:
So really our realistic list for expansion going forward if the goal is to add value to the conference is these six schools:
1. Murray State
2. SLU (unlikely)
3. Belmont (unlikely)
4. NKU
5.Wright State
6. South Dakota State (unlikely without another Dakota school)
As for at-large bids, given how close the MVC has been to garnering at-large bids in recent years, and how close Murray State has gotten as well despite being in the OVC, I fail to see how making prudent quality additions can hurt our chances. I still believe firmly in the potential of NKU and of the MVC as a whole. Anything to add to scheduling and quality of competition is good for the league and for us as fans. I still see North Dakota's joining the MVFC in 2020 as the target date for expansion, at which point Murray State will be toured again (and invited) Belmont and SLU will be asked and if both decline I wouldn't be surprised if the visit list is NKU Wright State and South Dakota State with NKU as the likely frontrunner to be added.
If we're doing 14 and Belmont\SLU won't change their minds then we should just take the other 4 on this list. If SDSU wants to remain in the conference they own, we audition Omaha, Oral Roberts,UALR, UIC (maybe) and Milwaukee and pick the best one, or rather, the one that shows the greatest potential. Heavy preference would likely be given to Omaha, ORU, and UALR due to their ability to serve as reasonable partners for Missouri State. Of these I believe ORU would have the inside track as a private school with better basketball history and non-revenue sports. On potential, however, the best play could be Omaha. Though at that point we probably just stay at 12 and have Nku and Murray State be travel partners. Or split up ISUb and Evansville and go with
ISUb\NKU
Evansville\Murray State
Personally I don't think there's much appetite for going to 14 teams; and given our struggle to find even a suitable 12th, that seems reasonable. It would have to be a perfect (or near perfect) mix, and such a mix likely requires one or both of Belmont and SLU. I really think Wright State has potential but I can't see them getting the nod over NKU if it came to an either or choice.
NKU and Wright State don't wow me as potential adds. NKU is a young program and needs to prove sustainability. If they become the clear alpha HL program over the next 5-10 years then I'd give them more consideration.
I'm in wait and see mode with what happens the next few years with expansion in P5 and BE. I don't think any of the FCS football MVC schools have ambition to move to FBS and I don't currently see any MVC school getting a serious look by the BE. LU went on a great run but you don't invites based on 1 run and decades of mediocrity, they'd need to develop into a powerhouse.
ISUb? I know you mean Indiana State but what it the b?
Quote from: IndyValpo on July 19, 2018, 11:49:54 AM
ISUb? I know you mean Indiana State but what it the b?
It differentiates Illinois State and Indiana State. The lowercase letters represents their school colors. ISUr (Illinois State red). ISUb (Indiana State blue).
Mvc should stay as is unless they can get one or more of the following SLU, Dayton or Belmont. I understand that disrupts the private/public but those are the best basketball programs. Murray state is close behind.
Nku, Wright state, Omaha, oru are tier two or low majors. Don't settle or just add for the sake of adding.
I feel kind of bad for sayin "add them" and "don't add them". We have only been in the league for a full year now. It's like Oakland coming into the HL and making suggestions on day 1. Have to earn our keep before making suggestions.
Quote from: VU2014 on July 19, 2018, 12:06:02 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on July 19, 2018, 11:49:54 AM
ISUb? I know you mean Indiana State but what it the b?
It differentiates Illinois State and Indiana State. The lowercase letters represents their school colors. ISUr (Illinois State red). ISUb (Indiana State blue).
Yes, ISUb is for Indiana State Sycamores and the "b" stands for Blue while the "r" in ISUr stands for Redbirds.
Quote from: VU2014 on July 19, 2018, 12:06:02 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on July 19, 2018, 11:49:54 AM
ISUb? I know you mean Indiana State but what it the b?
It differentiates Illinois State and Indiana State. The lowercase letters represents their school colors. ISUr (Illinois State red). ISUb (Indiana State blue).
I have to say, differentiating by color is a new one on me...might use IndSt IllSt as everyone may not know their colors. Sadly, as a testament to my life, I do know many schools colors. I can't wait until Loyola (b) plays Loyola (g) sometime
BTW, if you haven't driven down LaPorte Avenue where the old ramp was... it's a very nicely paved, lined PARKING LOT...
Quote from: talksalot on July 19, 2018, 04:25:00 PM
BTW, if you haven't driven down LaPorte Avenue where the old ramp was... it's a single row, very nicely paved, lined PARKING LOT...
Fixed it for you.
Quote from: wh on July 19, 2018, 06:11:50 PM
Quote from: talksalot on July 19, 2018, 04:25:00 PM
BTW, if you haven't driven down LaPorte Avenue where the old ramp was... it's a single row, very nicely paved, lined PARKING LOT...
Fixed it for you.
So are you telling us that it is indeed a Parking Lot but that it doesn't have a Lot of Parking ???
Quote from: wh on July 16, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
Valpo will be receiving a huge, totally unanticipated, annually recurring windfall from the Loyola tournament run. Air condition the freaking ARC with it and stop passing around a hat like some street beggar. What's next - 50/50 raffles at home games to pay for a new ARC water heater. How embarrassing.
I totally agree, but this isn't the first time Valpo will be reaping the benefits of being in a conference with multiple bids or deep NCAAT runs. Any idea what they did with the $ from the previous windfalls? Was that money spent in a futile attempt to keep Bryce? I don't know, but hopefully they use that money to invest in the program instead of overpaying the coaching staff.
Quote from: justducky on July 19, 2018, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: wh on July 19, 2018, 06:11:50 PM
Quote from: talksalot on July 19, 2018, 04:25:00 PM
BTW, if you haven't driven down LaPorte Avenue where the old ramp was... it's a single row, very nicely paved, lined PARKING LOT...
Fixed it for you.
So are you telling us that it is indeed a Parking Lot but that it doesn't have a Lot of Parking ???
If 17 spaces on either side of a single pass-thru lane is a parking lot, then it's a parking lot. It's at least as much a parking lot as my 2 1/2 car garage is a parking garage.
Quote from: IndyValpo on July 19, 2018, 04:00:42 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on July 19, 2018, 12:06:02 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on July 19, 2018, 11:49:54 AM
ISUb? I know you mean Indiana State but what it the b?
It differentiates Illinois State and Indiana State. The lowercase letters represents their school colors. ISUr (Illinois State red). ISUb (Indiana State blue).
I have to say, differentiating by color is a new one on me...might use IndSt IllSt as everyone may not know their colors. Sadly, as a testament to my life, I do know many schools colors. I can't wait until Loyola (b) plays Loyola (g) sometime
These were created on the MVC message boards and websites long ago before Valpo became a member of the MVC. I don't think it's our right or obligation to come up with new initial designations for Illinois State and Indiana State. Although in my mind it would be easier to use INST/ILST
As far as Loyola (b) and Loyola (g) I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Loyola-Chicago and Loyola-New Orleans use the traditional colors of Father Loyola who the order is named after which is maroon and gold and Loyola Maryland uses the colors grey and green. I suppose Loyola (g) is Loyola Maryland but what is Loyola (b)?
Here are two more reasons why I think expansion could become a real topic this year. The MVC is about to take a big hit to the quality of their schedules. First, the entire conference is losing the benefit of the MWC\MVC Challenge, taking, at minimum, a quality Q2 game with an opponent with some name power from everyone in the conference. I don't know if that change is permanent but it may be. In addition, UNI and Drake are losing the Hy-Vee challenge, another frequently Q2 P5 opportunity. This is a massive blow to MVC schedules.
Adding at least Murray State shouldn't break anyone's travel budget and adds the sometimes Q1\frequent Q2 opportunity the challenge once provided and replaces the Hy-Vee with a comparable game. If the MVC is able to restart the challenge or get a new one with say the A10, then this becomes a scheduling win over the low-level D1\non-D1 school the MVC schools would otherwise be playing, which increases our at-large chances.
Quote from: bbtds on July 20, 2018, 10:19:30 AM
Quote from: IndyValpo on July 19, 2018, 04:00:42 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on July 19, 2018, 12:06:02 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on July 19, 2018, 11:49:54 AM
ISUb? I know you mean Indiana State but what it the b?
It differentiates Illinois State and Indiana State. The lowercase letters represents their school colors. ISUr (Illinois State red). ISUb (Indiana State blue).
I have to say, differentiating by color is a new one on me...might use IndSt IllSt as everyone may not know their colors. Sadly, as a testament to my life, I do know many schools colors. I can't wait until Loyola (b) plays Loyola (g) sometime
These were created on the MVC message boards and websites long ago before Valpo became a member of the MVC. I don't think it's our right or obligation to come up with new initial designations for Illinois State and Indiana State. Although in my mind it would be easier to use INST/ILST
As far as Loyola (b) and Loyola (g) I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Loyola-Chicago and Loyola-New Orleans use the traditional colors of Father Loyola who the order is named after which is maroon and gold and Loyola Maryland uses the colors grey and green. I suppose Loyola (g) is Loyola Maryland but what is Loyola (b)?
So what about Loyola Maryland or Loyola Marymount?
Quote from: wh on July 16, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: wh on July 16, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
Valpo will be receiving a huge, totally unanticipated, annually recurring windfall from the Loyola tournament run. Air condition the freaking ARC with it and stop passing around a hat like some street beggar. What's next - 50/50 raffles at home games to pay for a new ARC water heater. How embarrassing.
BTW while you're at it, replace the freaking PA system that's been broken for the past 10 years, and don't pass the hat for that either. It's actually hard to believe that Valpo is a member of a prominent D1 conference, when it cries poor about the cost of building mechanicals and has a tin can out of the 1980's for a communication system.
God forbid that I would bring up the ARC parking FUBAR. I can only imagine the number of hats and 50/50 raffles it will take to bale the university out of that facility planning masterpiece.
Just came across a PA system that would provide much better voice clarity. I believe it's been on the market for awhile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lQsrNlJTuY
The case for Wright State to the MVC to be added alongside NKU especially in a 14-team MVC scenario:
I did a deeper dive into Wright State as a candidate (particulsrly if a 14 team scenario is in play). Here's what I found (numbers for athletics go back to the 2006-2007 season in basketball and the 2006 season in baseball):
Basketball:
Record: 238-162
2 NCAA Appearances
1 CBI
1 CIT
10 19+ win seasons (9 20+ win seasons)
They are led by a highly respected coach (Scott Nagy) who definitely has the program moving in the right direction
Strong attendance (4000+) would likely increase with better MVC competition coming in
Previous rivalries with Loyola and Valparaiso
Strong non-revenue sports particularly in baseball:
Has won at least 30 games in baseball every year since 2006 except for 2013 when they won 25)
5 Regular Season Horizon League Titles
6 Conference Tournament Titles
6 NCAA Tournament Appearances
2 Super Regionals
Academics\Other Information:
Independent Institution Not part of another system
Research based
Conveys degrees to doctorate level
Ranked #147 by Washington Monthly
Within 5 hours of 5\10 MVC Schools Bradley is 5 hrs 3 minutes away SIU 5:50 away
Along with NKU would give MVC strong presence in a key recruiting area\media market
If it weren't for the strain this would put on UNI Drake and Missouri State, they would be a borderline no-brainer addition alongside NKU. They're perfect travel partners (1 hour apart) non-football publics, which will no doubt ease private schools' concerns about balance, deliver a consequential media market\recruiting hotbed, and combine the upside of a fast-growing new university with a more stable and reliable brand that does well in multiple sports. With the benefit of MVC recruiting to buoy them, they could really elevate themselves.
One major downside is how badly adding teams like Wright State and NKU hurts the travel budgets of UNI Drake and Missouri State as those schools are a whopping 8+ hours away. This feels almost like the Eastern equivalent of adding the Dakotas except neither of these is a flagship. None of these schools really move the needle in basketball like Murray State (SDSU comes closest) but might if they got a recruiting boost from the MVC though they are excellent in other sports. However they add significantly to the travel budgets of multiple member institutions. Is that increase worth what these schools add? That is the question.
If it weren't for the strain this would put on UNI Drake and Missouri State, they would be a borderline no-brainer addition alongside NKU. They're perfect travel partners (1 hour apart) non-football publics, which will no doubt ease private schools' concerns about balance, deliver a consequential media market\recruiting hotbed, and combine the upside of a fast-growing new university with a more stable and reliable brand that does well in multiple sports. With the benefit of MVC recruiting to buoy them, they could really elevate themselves.
Murray State's president looks to be following their AD out the door. This may not be good for future expansion. These guys were decidedly pro-athletics. There's no telling whether the next administration will have a similar character. With budget cuts looming in Kentucky, the window to add another quality program in our footprint may be closing.
https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtop ... b43cfc8057
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on July 27, 2018, 08:20:51 AM
The case for Wright State to the MVC to be added alongside NKU especially in a 14-team MVC scenario:
I did a deeper dive into Wright State as a candidate (particulsrly if a 14 team scenario is in play). Here's what I found (numbers for athletics go back to the 2006-2007 season in basketball and the 2006 season in baseball):
Basketball:
Record: 238-162
2 NCAA Appearances
1 CBI
1 CIT
10 19+ win seasons (9 20+ win seasons)
They are led by a highly respected coach (Scott Nagy) who definitely has the program moving in the right direction
Strong attendance (4000+) would likely increase with better MVC competition coming in
Previous rivalries with Loyola and Valparaiso
Strong non-revenue sports particularly in baseball:
Has won at least 30 games in baseball every year since 2006 except for 2013 when they won 25)
5 Regular Season Horizon League Titles
6 Conference Tournament Titles
6 NCAA Tournament Appearances
2 Super Regionals
Academics\Other Information:
Independent Institution Not part of another system
Research based
Conveys degrees to doctorate level
Ranked #147 by Washington Monthly
Within 5 hours of 5\10 MVC Schools Bradley is 5 hrs 3 minutes away SIU 5:50 away
Along with NKU would give MVC strong presence in a key recruiting area\media market
Neither NKU or Wright State are obvious adds, imo. If they become consistent top mid programs and are dominating the Horizon League, as well as consistently beating competition from better conferences in the OOC then I would be more willing to talk expansion with those schools. NKU is a very young program that has a lot to still prove, but there is potential. Wright State I'm even less sold on. Yeah they could be in for a good year but I'm more sold on the coach then the program itself.
Neither NKU or Wright State is going to make the MVC a two bid league as of right now.
Question: was there every really a true rivalry between VU and NKU/Wright State? There wasn't much heat there, imo.
Was there ever really any real consistent heat with anyone but Butler? I honestly think Oakland Detroit(for about a year or two) Green Bay (while Wardle was there) and Cleveland State (Waters era) followed by Wright State came closest to rivalries but none of them burned too brightly for too long. When we joined we had our rival in Butler which admittedly was probably more one sided on our end, then I don't think we were there long enough after they left and the other teams were too cyclical to develop a single new rival. I know the conference collectively hated us though.
And yes I know Wright State doesn't wow anyone in basketball but they're consistently solid. They're the kind of program that will help keep the middle of the pack strong but probably won't frequently challenge for the top spot in the MVC (that may be changing now). As things stand right now, they're the kind of addition that doesn't scream potential like Murray State NKU UIC or Milwaukee but they have a high floor. You could do a lot worse, but you could probably do better as well. As a bookend to NKU, they make a lot of sense as they are one hour apart. Taking them instead of NKU, however, probably doesn't.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on August 04, 2018, 09:38:58 PM
Was there ever really any real consistent heat with anyone but Butler? I honestly think Oakland Detroit(for about a year or two) Green Bay (while Wardle was there) and Cleveland State (Waters era) followed by Wright State came closest to rivalries but none of them burned too brightly for too long. When we joined we had our rival in Butler which admittedly was probably more one sided on our end, then I don't think we were there long enough after they left and the other teams were too cyclical to develop a single new rival. I know the conference collectively hated us though.
Those Butler games were always high charged and meant way more then any Wright State game (other then the HL champ game that one time) or NKU game, imo. The fan-base got up for the Butler games the way they didn't for other HL schools, other then Detroit for the McCallum Jr years and sort of the Oakland games towards the end of our tenure in the HL. It always felt like those games meant more to the opposing fan-bases then it meant to us. The rivalries never lasted too long in the Horizon League because the other programs couldn't sustain success (other then Butler who left). We were the big conference game on every HL school's schedule towards the end of our tenure but those games weren't "big" to us. Thankfully we're in a more competitive league now that will supply more meaningful and competitive games.
And the tighter footprint and greater coverage provide ample opportunities for rivalries to grow. We've got in-state games (ISUb Evansville) Close-proximity rivals (Loyola ISUr Bradley) Older fans may remember SIU's Barry Hinson from his days at ORU. A team whose tournament success we aspire to emulate (UNI) a similar academic institution (Drake) and a strong team with whom we've had some great battles recently (Missouri State) The ARC needs to be packed every game in conference play, especially since it's no longer free to watch online anyway.
Yes, Oral Roberts was a true rival for much of our time together in the Mid-Con.
Barry Hinson, the hick from Marlow Oklahoma.
Oakland hired a new AD two weeks ago with a P5 background. This is a good sign that indicates their willingness to get to the next level. Coupled with the Mike Davis hire at UDM, is it possible that the MVC would look to Detroit as it searches for new members? I do think it's very possible that the Horizon League will be back on its way back up very soon. One thing that surprised me is how candidly Oakland's coach stated the need for facility upgrades. It may be best for the MVC to wait and see who emerges from the HL as the MVC focuses on getting even better to possibly attract its tier 1 targets. I just really think Murray State is going to force their hand pretty soon. They look really solid and poised for another big year.
https://twitter.com/BradGalli/status/10 ... 2829817859
Expansion Tier List (feel free to disagree)
Tier 1 adds: Belmont Murray State SDSU (Dayton and SLU would make this list if they were real possibilities)
Tier 2 adds: Wright State NKU NDSU
Tier 3 adds: Milwaukee UIC Detroit Oakland Green Bay South Dakota
Tier 4 adds: ORU UALR Denver SEMO North Dakota Omaha UMKC
More and more I'm warming to a Murray State\South Dakota State combo if such a thing were possible. I think that would really raise the profile of the league.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on August 07, 2018, 01:54:39 AM
More and more I'm warming to a Murray State\South Dakota State combo if such a thing were possible. I think that would really raise the profile of the league.
These two would certainly make it a tougher league, but I don't think that necessarily raises the profile of the MVC to a multi-bid league. Murray State has had the seed profile of an at-large team just once in the last 15 years (2012, when they went 30-1 and were a 6 seed), while SDSU has never had an at-large profile (at least an 11 seed or better) in that timeframe.
While that wouldn't necessarily eat into the tournament shares for each school currently in the MVC that much on a yearly basis, their additions also wouldn't likely add to the conference's coffers either. That doesn't even take into account the apparent public/private school politics in the MVC.
Unless it's Murray, Dayton, SLU or Belmont, expansion makes no sense with any of the directional schools. NDSU and SDSU are flashes. These conferences are 1-2 tiers below the MVC, and the schools above have not demonstrated any long term viability as a basketball school. One good player does not make a school upwardly mobile. Frankly, query (as they say in the Eastern Law Schools) whether Murray or Belmont should be elevated to the MVC? I am particular to the Racers because they've had competitive programs since the 80s (14/30 NCAA tourney appearances since 1988, with wins), had Popeye Jones, a series of very good coaches who moved on, NBA draftees, and have basketball name recognition. Belmont may be coach-driven and what happens when Rick Byrd retires?
Despite some nice research on Wright State, it is also the 2d team in a small media market. It is maybe 8th or 9th in a larger media market (Cincy/NK/Dayton). Dayton is not even a good HS basketball area except for 1-2 teams annually so unclear about recruiting hotbed. NKU is a newbie to D1 and has not established any long tem anything yet. Let's see in 10 years. Again it is about 10th in terms of coverage in Cincy after X, UC, UK, Louisville, Dayton, OSU and Miami for starters. (I'm also still bitter about WSU's entry into (and abrupt exit from) the Mid-Con.
Among many factors, we left the HL to move up and play better competition, not to drag along state schools that have middling academic programs and no connection to our Mission without any measurable improvement in quality of play.
Expansion makes no sense at all under the current selection committee. It will mean less resources and a tougher path to the tournament for everyone in the league.
Quote from: valpo84 on August 07, 2018, 08:40:07 AM
Unless it's Murray, Dayton, SLU or Belmont, expansion makes no sense with any of the directional schools. NDSU and SDSU are flashes. These conferences are 1-2 tiers below the MVC, and the schools above have not demonstrated any long term viability as a basketball school. One good player does not make a school upwardly mobile. Frankly, query (as they say in the Eastern Law Schools) whether Murray or Belmont should be elevated to the MVC? I am particular to the Racers because they've had competitive programs since the 80s (14/30 NCAA tourney appearances since 1988, with wins), had Popeye Jones, a series of very good coaches who moved on, NBA draftees, and have basketball name recognition. Belmont may be coach-driven and what happens when Rick Byrd retires?
Despite some nice research on Wright State, it is also the 2d team in a small media market. It is maybe 8th or 9th in a larger media market (Cincy/NK/Dayton). Dayton is not even a good HS basketball area except for 1-2 teams annually so unclear about recruiting hotbed. NKU is a newbie to D1 and has not established any long tem anything yet. Let's see in 10 years. Again it is about 10th in terms of coverage in Cincy after X, UC, UK, Louisville, Dayton, OSU and Miami for starters. (I'm also still bitter about WSU's entry into (and abrupt exit from) the Mid-Con.
Among many factors, we left the HL to move up and play better competition, not to drag along state schools that have middling academic programs and no connection to our Mission without any measurable improvement in quality of play.
I disagree very strongly about South Dakota State. Since 2010-2011--that's 8 seasons of data--they have:
Averaged 23.25 wins
Beaten Iowa X2 Minnesota Ole Miss TCU Washington New Mexico (when they had an RPI of 2 and were nationally ranked) Buffalo X2 (including last year) Belmont Middle Tennessee Murray State multiple MVC teams and a host of other schools that were top 100 finishers but not as perennially successful
Average RPI: 92.25 No sub 200 years
5 tournament appearances
5 top 100 RPI finishes including 4 times in the top 62
Strong Womens sports
All in a league consistently better than the OVC
RPI Rankings:
Summit:21 16 19 17 21 11 17 17
OVC: 27 21 16 24 25 21 25 21
ASUN*: 17 20
Their numbers over the past 8 years suggest that they are a step below Belmont but even better than Murray State. In fact, they frequently finish AHEAD of BOTH Just for fun I threw in NDSU to show that while the potential exists for them to be a good program they are a clear tier below.
SDSU: 37 155 28 99 133 62 42 183
Murray: 48 230 169 63 145 117 22 117
Belmont:81 60 95 104 51 19 58** 51**
NDSU: 210 111 125 90 33^ 75 183 238
* Belmont were members of the Atlantic Sun Conference for the first two years of this data set (2010-2011 and 2011-2012)
**In Atlantic Sun Conference
^ Beat Oklahoma in NCAA Tournament
SDSU has finished with the best RPI of this group two of the past three years and has finished ahead of just Murray State 3 times and just Belmont twice.
Belmont is the rock-steady standard bearer at 64.8 average RPI SDSU's 92.25 mark actually bests Murray State at 113.8
Hi\Lo gives us: 109.8 for Murray State 66 for Belmont and 88 for South Dakota State
3 year peak leaves 42.7 for Belmont 73.3 for SDSU and 85.3 for Murray State
Interestingly 3 year peak indicates that NDSU has a higher ceiling (66) than SDSU despite checking in in the 130s in average and Hi\Lo thus indicating greater volatility and greater difficulty sustaining success. They also have the lowest high RPI the lowest low RPI and are the only team in this group with multiple sub 200 seasons
As you can see, by posting better more consistent numbers in a consistently better league one could make the case that SDSU is a better addition than Murray State and not just because of Mike Daum or Scott Nagy either. Of course, longevity matters and nobody beats Murray State there. Belmont comes close with 19+ wins every year since 2005-2006. The Racers have also weathered the storm of multiple coaching changes unlike Belmont and SDSU, and there are legitimate concerns as to whether Belmont can last beyond Byrd or SDSU beyond Otzelberger. Still, the same things were said about Valpo when the Drews left and SDSU when Nagy left, even Murray State deals with that question every time they replace a coach. Oftentimes when a program is successful for this long it's because of principles and a blueprint so firmly woven into the fabric of a program that they endure even after the coach that instilled them in the first place leaves. This is particularly true when a program hires from within.
I'd evaluate the worthiness of adding SDSU after Mike Daum graduates. Chances are very slim a player of Daum's caliber joins SDSU program. I don't expect Valpo to land another player of AP's caliber for quite a while but our program has had a proven track record for decades prior to AP. I'm not sure we could say the same about SDSU and I'm not trying to take a shot at them or imply we are a powerhouse.
I think it's fair to only want to add programs that are at our "level" (with a proven track record) or better then we were coming into the MVC.
The only schools that I'd have in the conversation are: Murray State, Belmont, SLU, Dayton. SLU and Dayton are very unlikely to join as things currently stand. Even to a certain extent Belmont sounds unlikely. I'm against the idea of going to 14 teams. That just divides resources up too much and I don't think there are 4 realistic potential schools that would actually boost us up to multiple bids.
Yeah, to be fair to Murray State, adding a ninth year to the evaluation window would have given them another top 60 RPI season while adding a sub-200 year to SDSU and giving Belmont its worst RPI in the window. Plus a second NCAA Tournament win. The average RPIs would be:
Belmont 72.7
Murray State: 107.6
SDSU: 108.1
Hi\Lo would be :
Belmont 71.4
SDSU: 101.6
Murray State: 102.3
Three Year Peak:
Belmont: 42.7
SDSU:73.3
Murray State: 65.3
You can see that SDSU and Murray State have been roughly the same caliber of program the past 8-9 years and the first couple of years of the data set are the worst SDSU has been indicating a strong positive trend.
Now that we are safely in the MVC, it might be fun (I think...... Maybe. Maybe not.) to see how all of these different comparison metrics would look like if we add a 4th team into the equation over the same time span: Valpo.
Quote from: VULB#62 on August 07, 2018, 03:05:32 PM
Now that we are safely in the MVC, it might be fun (I think...... Maybe. Maybe not.) to see how all of these different comparison metrics would look like if we add a 4th team into the equation over the same time span: Valpo.
On it!
Since I went as far back as 09-10 for everyone else I'll use the same data for Valpo:
With MVC Year added 09-10-17-18:
League Strength: 14 11 14 12 14 16 18 19 8
Valpo RPI: 186 71 95 58 192 50 49 71 187
Average RPI 106.5
6 top 100 finishes (Belmont 7 SDSU 5 Murray State 4)
5 Top 75 finishes Same as Belmont) Murray State 4 SDSU 4)
Hi-Lo: 102.5
3 year peak: 56.6 higher than Murray State and SDSU
Pre-MVC:(09-10-16-17):
League Strength: 14 11 14 12 14 16 18 19
Valpo RPI: 186 71 95 58 192 50 49 71
Average RPI: 96.5
Hi-Lo: 88.5
3 year peak: 56.6
Under the original time period studied 10-11-present (MVC Year Included) :
11 14 12 14 16 18 19 8
71 95 58 192 50 49 71 187
Average RPI: 96.6
Hi-Lo: 88.7
3 year peak: 56.6
Pre-MVC:
11 14 12 14 16 18 19
71 95 58 192 50 49 71
Average RPI: 83.7
Hi-Lo: 69
3 year peak: 56.6
Since only the pre-MVC numbers mattered to the MVC I will eliminate this year from everyone's resume This could really hurt all of these teams as all will lose a top-100 RPI year:
Average RPI 10-11-16-17:
SDSU: 100.2
Murray State: 123.2
Belmont: 62.5
Valpo 83.7
Hi-Lo 10-11-16-17:
SDSU: 98.2
Murray State: 122.2
Belmont: 63
Valpo: 69
3 year peak 10-11-16-17:
Murray State: 85.3
Belmont: 42.7
SDSU:79
Valpo: 56.6
Going back even further: (09-10-16-17 :
The average RPIs would be:
Belmont 71.6
Murray State: 115
SDSU: 117.5
Valpo: 96.5
Hi\Lo would be :
Belmont 69.8
SDSU: 112.3
Murray State: 111.3
Valpo: 88.5
Three Year Peak:
Belmont: 42.7
SDSU:73.3
Murray State: 65.3
Valpo: 56.6
Valpo compares quite favorably and was not a bad add. Murray State and SDSU are comparable adds and would help the league tremendously.
Apologies in advance if my math is slightly off. I've been at this virtually all day and my brain is tired. Please feel free to correct them as you see fit.
Great, quick response 1314. Overlooking the +/- factor, it still confirms the MVC's decision to invite us. The thing that stands out to me is Belmont's lofty ratings and record. But playng and winning is lesser competitive conferences has its advantages.
You can take these numbers and show them to anyone who thinks Valpo was a bad addition\the wrong addition. That clearly is false. The only reason our numbers don't look even better is because the transition years are major departures from the successful runs. I just hope the trend holds and we're now in for at least 3 years as a top 50-100 team after this tough year. It is comforting to know however that as bad as the Riverside loss was, as hard as the Big 10 blowouts were to endure, and as excruciatingly tough to swallow the first 10 MVC games were, Our Crusaders still beat 3 teams (almost 4) in the nonconference with RPIs around 150 (SELA Kent State Utah State) and 3 top 105 teams in conference (Bradley Illinois State Southern Illinois) with every win except Utah State coming by double digits. There were plenty of positive signs to be encouraged by as we all know and numerous reasons to think the team will be fine going forward. And that was a bad year with a young team. It also might dispel to some degree the notion that Murray State would have come in and been top 2 in the MVC this year. They had a more experienced team, but a greater jump in competition making their adjustment harder. Yes, they won in Redbird Arena, Sure, they beat SIU at home, and the close Auburn loss is clear evidence that they would have and could have been very competitive but they weren't facing the Redbirds or the Salukis in midseason form. They may not have finished last, but they probably would have struggled. Still think they belong in the MVC and would be a great addition. I am still a proponent of expansion ; though, as my numbers indicate, Valpo was and remains the right call if only one team was going to be taken.
A situation possibly worth monitoring from an MVC perspective.
https://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/tusportsextra/bill-haisten-derrick-gragg-philip-montgomery-and-frank-haith-accept/article_833b8a0b-9b60-5982-be6d-ecda78465987.html
???
If the university is having funding issues one of the first areas they would look to cut would be whether FBS football in a cross-country conference is preferable to FCS football in a conference with a much tighter footprint (and the best FCS football conference and a strong overall conference in multiple sports. I don't think they'll ultimately have to do anything that drastic because the AAC is probably going to get an increased payday so they're probably going to be fine but still it could be something to monitor since they were once members of the MVC
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on August 08, 2018, 06:03:04 PM
A situation possibly worth monitoring from an MVC perspective.
https://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/tusportsextra/bill-haisten-derrick-gragg-philip-montgomery-and-frank-haith-accept/article_833b8a0b-9b60-5982-be6d-ecda78465987.html
Another school that milked the foreign student cash cow for all it was worth, and now they have a serious financial problem.
https://www.channel3000.com/news/education/sharp-drop-in-international-student-visas-worries-us-colleges/715547199
"That's bad news for schools that have large international student populations. Nearly 20% of the University of Tulsa's 4,400 enrolled students hail from overseas.
Johnson said his school has experienced declines in international enrollment for a few years now and it is starting to hurt revenue. The university has even placed a school official in China to recruit more students from overseas."
Adding insult to injury, Tulsa's Education Department has lost its accreditation
https://www.google.com/amp/www.tulsaworld.com/news/education/tu-s-education-department-loses-state-accreditation-jeopardizing-students-in/article_93007682-1188-56c0-b95a-2402231f9768.amp.html
Oh man Tulsa back to the MVC could potentially be more real than any of us realize.
"If the university is having funding issues one of the first areas they would look to cut would be whether FBS football in a cross-country conference is preferable to FCS football in a conference with a much tighter footprint"
This never happens in the modern era unless you're stuck without a conference in the panhandle of Idaho with the Big Sky waiting for you.
Quote from: may know on August 09, 2018, 03:54:44 AM
This never happens in the modern era unless you're stuck without a conference in the panhandle of Idaho with the Big Sky waiting for you.
And, this never happens in the modern era unless there is a major lack of support from top level administration to maintain FBS, and the program has an antiquated FBS facility that arguably might be one of the worst stadiums in the entire country or is at least in need of major modern updates, and to draw fan support from a fledgling program you must compete with 1) an instate rival in Boise who has had major success at the FBS level and has well surpassed Idaho in fan interest and 2) a P5 PAC 12 school in WSU eight miles from your campus.
Even then, with all the foregoing, if Idaho's administration would have been committed to FBS football after their tour in the Sun Belt was over, my guess is they would have stayed there regardless of the negatives. There's a reason why UMASS, NMSU and Liberty are maintaining FBS Independent status, UAB fought like hell to revive its program, and EMU plans on staying put in the MAC.
Totally agree with Valpo84 when he says expansion does nothing for us UNLESS it includes Dayton, SLU, Murray State or Belmont. I think latter two would need to both come aboard as a pair.
As many on the board know, I think the MVC should think SLU or bust. They are central in the "Missouri" Valley footprint and would get countless financial savings by leaving the ACC. They will not be offered a Big East invite because they have not performed despite their big arena and large city.
The MVC should make an all out effort to lure SLU. Give them a package of tourney host privileges for key sports that could replicate the Arch Madness draw and attract MVC schools to an accessible destination city smack in the middle of the MVC footprint. Baseball, volleyball, and softball as a starting point.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 09, 2018, 10:40:50 AM
Totally agree with Valpo84 when he says expansion does nothing for us UNLESS it includes Dayton, SLU, Murray State or Belmont. I think latter two would need to both come aboard as a pair.
As many on the board know, I think the MVC should think SLU or bust. They are central in the "Missouri" Valley footprint and would get countless financial savings by leaving the ACC. They will not be offered a Big East invite because they have not performed despite their big arena and large city.
The MVC should make an all out effort to lure SLU. Give them a package of tourney host privileges for key sports that could replicate the Arch Madness draw and attract MVC schools to an accessible destination city smack in the middle of the MVC footprint. Baseball, volleyball, and softball as a starting point.
The Valley is a great conference but I wouldn't be leaving the ACC! ;)
Ha! Ok it's Atlantic something, isnt' it. Name didn't come to mind. Shows how low profile it is.
I agree that the MVC should aim high with SLU and Dayton but there is almost no chance either would leave the A10 for the MVC, as things currently stand. The A10 would need to sustain significant loss of momentum and schools leaving for the BE to consider the move, which won't happen overnight.
Murray State sounds like the only school willing to make the jump. Belmont is content with being a big fish in a tiny pond for now. We're in a multi-year "wait and see" scenario, with a ton of factors that are out of our control. It's going to be important for the presidents/ADs and the MVC leadership to have a plan and be immediately reactive when possible Power Conference expansion happens and sets off a chain of events. I understand that some want the MVC to be proactive instead of reactive but the options aren't great right now but those things could change with Power Conference Expansion or if the Big 12 eventually breaks up once the TV contracts are up.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 09, 2018, 11:03:01 AM
Ha! Ok it's Atlantic something, isnt' it. Name didn't come to mind. Shows how low profile it is.
The A-10 is basically the same general level of a league as the MVC and has 18 NCAA bids in the last 5 years compared to the MVC's 7. The MVC is definitely better travel-wise for them, but considering SLU, VCU and Dayton were all having down years last year and their league still got 3 bids and as many NCAA units as a league as the MVC last year, I'd say the A-10 has more potential league-wide than the MVC going forward. This is especially true when you look at the spending and revenue those 3 programs generate compared to those in the MVC (those 3 schools had more revenue than the entire MVC by a little under $3M according to the most recent data available).
This isn't meant to knock the MVC, because top to bottom, it still can wind up with a better league rating than the A-10, but personally I don't think this means anyone should be calling the A-10 a "low profile" league.
SLU's facilities are terrific! Their National Champ soccer program has a great stadium strictly built for soccer.
Dayton would never sniff the MVC.
MVC tried to add Saint Louis with Creighton & WSU and SLU was never interested.
Those 2 schools recruit the East Coast heavily for students & faculty.
A10 is by no means a "low profile" league. Beat out a P5 league a few years ago.
Yes, on reminder of the statistics et al, the hoops junkies like us will say the A10 is a strong league on par or better with the MVC.
If I am the parent or family of a student-athlete and paying private tuition do I want to watch my kid play road games and tournaments on the east coast constantly?.....or do I want to be able to travel short distances and have great chances to host tournaments?
I only meant that the "A-10" is a "low profile" in the eyes of Midwestern families who want to stay in their states for college or in nearby ones. Many parents and kids might view St. Bonaventure, Fordham, and St. Joseph as "who?" .
Whereas their kids might look at Bradley, Loyola, and SLU as logical options on par with each other as private schools.
Good article on T.J. Otzelberger and South Dakota State.
https://www.midmajormadness.com/2018/8/10/17663014/the-hottest-mid-major-coaching-candidate-south-dakota-state-jackrabbits-otzelberger-basketball
Posting this here because it may affect expansion decisions
https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/2018/08/11/fight-for-fox-local-sports-channels-could-shake-up-broadcasting#gs.r4f1VyY
Also posted this in the Realignment thread of On the Horizon but I'll put it up here too:
Potentially very interesting. If UMASS to the AAC happens it will be interesting to see how the subsequent dominos would impact the rest of the mid-major landscape. I just hope the MVC stays intact and makes a power move of their own.
https://twitter.com/howardherman/status/1035339720107151363
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on August 31, 2018, 07:17:03 AM
Also posted this in the Realignment thread of On the Horizon but I'll put it up here too:
Potentially very interesting. If UMASS to the AAC happens it will be interesting to see how the subsequent dominos would impact the rest of the mid-major landscape. I just hope the MVC stays intact and makes a power move of their own.
https://twitter.com/howardherman/status/1035339720107151363
This certainly isn't what I'd define as a "power move" in terms of realignment. UMass football is independent and is probably more of the play, along with giving UConn a close opponent that they can actually beat in football. Honestly I don't see how this benefits the American at all. Their season in FBS was 4-8 last year, and they've made the NCAA tournament once in the last 20 years. Maybe they're looking to expand their conference football schedule to more games, and UMass provides enough fodder to get more of their teams bowl eligible?
Even if it does happen, I don't see the A-10 looking to the Midwest at all for expansion if they do anything, so the MVC wouldn't need to make any moves beyond what has been available before.
Fair point but the most likely scenarios I keep reading are
UMASS (full member or football only) Army (football only)
With 1-2 of VCU Dayton and SLU to balance it out
This benefits the AAC in the following ways:
Gives UCONN a close rival, probably placating them and forestalling any movement on their part
Adds a flagship university and a service academy which is a major boon to overall prestige
Gets them into the Boston\Springfield market
Gives them the whole Army-Navy game which is huge for branding
Adds at least one other strong basketball brand that fits well geographically
Severely weakens a rival conference
My question about the MVC is whether Loyola would be involved (unlikely) or whether Dayton or SLU would seriously entertain the thought of staying in an A-10 where two of VCU UMASS Dayton and SLU are gone. I would have to think that the MVC would start to look pretty good at that point.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on August 31, 2018, 08:18:41 AM
Fair point but the most likely scenarios I keep reading are
UMASS (full member or football only) Army (football only)
With 1-2 of VCU Dayton and SLU to balance it out
This benefits the AAC in the following ways:
Gives UCONN a close rival, probably placating them and forestalling any movement on their part
Adds a flagship university and a service academy which is a major boon to overall prestige
Gets them into the Boston\Springfield market
Gives them the whole Army-Navy game which is huge for branding
Adds at least one other strong basketball brand that fits well geographically
Severely weakens a rival conference
My question about the MVC is whether Loyola would be involved (unlikely) or whether Dayton or SLU would seriously entertain the thought of staying in an A-10 where two of VCU UMASS Dayton and SLU are gone. I would have to think that the MVC would start to look pretty good at that point.
Solid points, I think any shift in mid-major conferences has a ripple effect that conceivably leads to reassessment by conference members. If the MVC were to lose, say, Illinois State and UNI would that not change the dynamic? Do other MVC members then not think about their long term future in the league? The difference being in our conference there really aren't any geographic head scratchers. The MVC appears to be one of the more geographically well thought out conferences at present.
One other item to consider is conference revenue sharing. Does anyone know what the AAC distributes compared to the MVC? We are in a time where Universities are very cognizant of their budgets and large travel expenses that don't increase revenue are likely just not an option. What schools have the embarrassment of riches necessary to make poor geographic travel decisions in their athletics budgets (mid majors)? Is SLU thriving?
SLU definitely has its share of financial worries, or so I have heard. They just don't want to make what many would perceive as a lateral move at best even if it's the prudent one. They want affluent east coast students and to be a national university. A10\AAC\BE membership would give them that MVC membership does not. Honestly it feels mostly like hubris on their part at this point.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on August 31, 2018, 08:18:41 AM
Fair point but the most likely scenarios I keep reading are
UMASS (full member or football only) Army (football only)
With 1-2 of VCU Dayton and SLU to balance it out
This benefits the AAC in the following ways:
Gives UCONN a close rival, probably placating them and forestalling any movement on their part
Adds a flagship university and a service academy which is a major boon to overall prestige
Gets them into the Boston\Springfield market
Gives them the whole Army-Navy game which is huge for branding
Adds at least one other strong basketball brand that fits well geographically
Severely weakens a rival conference
My question about the MVC is whether Loyola would be involved (unlikely) or whether Dayton or SLU would seriously entertain the thought of staying in an A-10 where two of VCU UMASS Dayton and SLU are gone. I would have to think that the MVC would start to look pretty good at that point.
UMass isn't a power in the A-10, so I doubt them leaving would impact any school's decision-making process. Dayton I can't believe would be involved for the same reason that they can't get into the Big East. A Cincinnati school would likely want to block them because they are that close. The American also doesn't really have "geographic fits", because the conference footprint goes from Connecticut to South Florida to Southeastern Texas and up to Kansas. Basically any school in the eastern half of the United States is a geographic fit. I could maybe see VCU making the leap, because similar to Wichita, there won't be a Big East invite coming. However, unlike Wichita, VCU was a very average team last year and I'm not sure with Mike Rhoades they give the American another bid.
SLU is really hoping that Travis Ford works out, because they don't really fit the University profile of a school in the American (I think all but Tulane and SMU are public) and they're about the only other school that the Big East would be willing to add if they were a consistent winner. I have no idea about their financial woes, but the University did just receive a $50 million dollar donation to start a research institute, as well as a $27 million dollar donation earlier this year from their major athletics donor for their business school, so it doesn't seem like they're hurting for cash.
I also don't think the American conference sees the A-10 as a rival conference. If they are looking to add schools, it's simply to add more strength if/when the next round of realignment takes place, though at this point if schools like Cincinnati, UConn and Memphis haven't been plucked up yet, not sure what will make a P5 league grab them now.
I still foresee the leading members of the AAC mixing with the remnants of the Big 12 to create a conference better than the current AAC but worse than the current Big 12.There would still be a P5 but this BE\B12\CUSA hybrid would be behind the other leagues and find it pretty difficult to garner a spot in the Playoff, though they'd still regularly take 4-6 bids in basketball.
Quote from: IrishDawg on August 31, 2018, 11:14:59 AMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on August 31, 2018, 08:18:41 AMFair point but the most likely scenarios I keep reading are UMASS (full member or football only) Army (football only) With 1-2 of VCU Dayton and SLU to balance it out This benefits the AAC in the following ways: Gives UCONN a close rival, probably placating them and forestalling any movement on their part Adds a flagship university and a service academy which is a major boon to overall prestige Gets them into the Boston\Springfield market Gives them the whole Army-Navy game which is huge for branding Adds at least one other strong basketball brand that fits well geographically Severely weakens a rival conference My question about the MVC is whether Loyola would be involved (unlikely) or whether Dayton or SLU would seriously entertain the thought of staying in an A-10 where two of VCU UMASS Dayton and SLU are gone. I would have to think that the MVC would start to look pretty good at that point.
UMass isn't a power in the A-10, so I doubt them leaving would impact any school's decision-making process. Dayton I can't believe would be involved for the same reason that they can't get into the Big East. A Cincinnati school would likely want to block them because they are that close. The American also doesn't really have "geographic fits", because the conference footprint goes from Connecticut to South Florida to Southeastern Texas and up to Kansas. Basically any school in the eastern half of the United States is a geographic fit. I could maybe see VCU making the leap, because similar to Wichita, there won't be a Big East invite coming. However, unlike Wichita, VCU was a very average team last year and I'm not sure with Mike Rhoades they give the American another bid. SLU is really hoping that Travis Ford works out, because they don't really fit the University profile of a school in the American (I think all but Tulane and SMU are public) and they're about the only other school that the Big East would be willing to add if they were a consistent winner. I have no idea about their financial woes, but the University did just receive a $50 million dollar donation to start a research institute, as well as a $27 million dollar donation earlier this year from their major athletics donor for their business school, so it doesn't seem like they're hurting for cash. I also don't think the American conference sees the A-10 as a rival conference. If they are looking to add schools, it's simply to add more strength if/when the next round of realignment takes place, though at this point if schools like Cincinnati, UConn and Memphis haven't been plucked up yet, not sure what will make a P5 league grab them now.
The AAC really should consider the A10 a rival league.
The first three years of the AAC's existence the A10 finished higher in RPI. Just two years ago, it was just one spot worse. Last year was a serious down year for the A10, but it should rebound within the next two years. Also the A10 has gotten more bids than the AAC since the AAC's inception. If they have a chance to grab teams out of the A10--especially one of the league's better members in VCU who is a great institutional fit-- to secure their advantage into the future, they absolutely should.
Furthermore this isn't about UMASS per se it's about 1. making UCONN happy 2. Getting Army 3. Expanding media presence 4. Weakening a conference of similar strength 5. Increasing the academic profile of the conference UMASS was a top 100 team just 4 years ago which was the last of 4 straight top 100 seasons topping out in the 20s. How much worse is their overall resume than the bottom half of the AAC? The thing is they have ample potential to be a contributing member in basketball and their football team is maturing rapidly.
Updated budget data which may help inform\influence expansion decisions.
http://www.volnation.com/forum/threads/men%C2%92s-basketball-budgets-2017-18.289490/
'UMass to AAC? Don't count on it'
https://www.berkshireeagle.com/stories/howard-herman-designated-hitter-umass-to-aac-dont-count-on-it,549284
I'm lost how some no-name writer asking Aresco about UMass led to the conclusion of some realignment breakthrough. Much ado about nothing.
IMO, if we're talking about football driven moves, the only ways that a non P5 conference shuffle might affect the MVC (or the MVFC) for that matter would be:
1) The NCAA requires conferences to have at least 12 members in order to hold a championship game (this would require the Sun Belt to have to add football members); or
2) The Western section of CUSA decides for some reason to split off and with some Sun Belt members reforms as a resurrected SWC, taking the route of an emphasis on geographical compactness instead of a reliance on media markets to its logical conclusion. (Again, this would require the Sun Belt to act.)
3) Somehow and/or someway the WAC sponsors FBS football again;
4) NMSU receives an oly sport/non football invite by the MVC;
5) Valpo goes FBS, builds a 35,000 seat stadium on farmland in Wanatah and joins the MAC. :crazy:
That's it. What else am I missing?
Might be a gamble but the Mvc should just announce they are going to expand and go to a 20 game (or more) schedule too. If power conferences are adding more league games and shrinking non-conference games/games possible for mid majors, why dont the mvc do the same? There'll be some good teams in the leagues below us that would jump at the chance to be certain of a strong schedule moving forward with the shake ups going on. It wouldn't hurt to add any of the teams mentioned ad naseum on this board already and it may force the hands of a couple of nicer fishes. I know I'd rather watch a game against northern Kentucky or Milwaukee or south Dakota state versus many (all?) of our out of conference home schedule
Quote from: elephtheria47 on September 02, 2018, 11:50:12 AM
Might be a gamble but the Mvc should just announce they are going to expand and go to a 20 game (or more) schedule too. If power conferences are adding more league games and shrinking non-conference games/games possible for mid majors, why dont the mvc do the same? There'll be some good teams in the leagues below us that would jump at the chance to be certain of a strong schedule moving forward with the shake ups going on. It wouldn't hurt to add any of the teams mentioned ad naseum on this board already and it may force the hands of a couple of nicer fishes. I know I'd rather watch a game against northern Kentucky or Milwaukee or south Dakota state versus many (all?) of our out of conference home schedule
When Valparaiso joined the MVC I supported on this board also bringing Murray State into the conference to make 11 teams and a 20-game conference schedule because I saw the difficulty developing in out of conference scheduling, and I would rather two more conference games against a good team like Murray State than having two non-D1 games on the schedule. I may be wrong, but for some reason I think I remember that MVC coaches were not in favor of a 20-game conference schedule.
Quote from: valpopal on September 02, 2018, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on September 02, 2018, 11:50:12 AM
Might be a gamble but the Mvc should just announce they are going to expand and go to a 20 game (or more) schedule too. If power conferences are adding more league games and shrinking non-conference games/games possible for mid majors, why dont the mvc do the same? There'll be some good teams in the leagues below us that would jump at the chance to be certain of a strong schedule moving forward with the shake ups going on. It wouldn't hurt to add any of the teams mentioned ad naseum on this board already and it may force the hands of a couple of nicer fishes. I know I'd rather watch a game against northern Kentucky or Milwaukee or south Dakota state versus many (all?) of our out of conference home schedule
When Valparaiso joined the MVC I supported on this board also bringing Murray State into the conference to make 11 teams and a 20-game conference schedule because I saw the difficulty developing in out of conference scheduling, and I would rather two more conference games against a good team like Murray State than having two non-D1 games on the schedule. I may be wrong, but for some reason I think I remember that MVC coaches were not in favor of a 20-game conference schedule.
There is no way the MVC adds only 1 team. It's 2 teams or nothing. We discussed the reasons why on this thread in the past.
We shouldn't be adding schools because they'd be more interesting opponents than non-d1s. You ONLY add schools to the conference if you think they can help make the conference a multi bid league. They need to be consistent/proven quadrant 1 or 2 opponents. Murray might be the closest to fitting that billing, but you need a 2nd program of the same quality. NKU just isn't a proven commodity yet. I know South Dakota State is the sexy name right now, but Daum is graduating next year and their coach very well might be leaving soon. For me to consider SDSU I'd need to see a larger sample size after Daum leaves.
Quote from: VU2014 on September 02, 2018, 01:22:17 PM
Quote from: valpopal on September 02, 2018, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on September 02, 2018, 11:50:12 AM
Might be a gamble but the Mvc should just announce they are going to expand and go to a 20 game (or more) schedule too. If power conferences are adding more league games and shrinking non-conference games/games possible for mid majors, why dont the mvc do the same? There'll be some good teams in the leagues below us that would jump at the chance to be certain of a strong schedule moving forward with the shake ups going on. It wouldn't hurt to add any of the teams mentioned ad naseum on this board already and it may force the hands of a couple of nicer fishes. I know I'd rather watch a game against northern Kentucky or Milwaukee or south Dakota state versus many (all?) of our out of conference home schedule
When Valparaiso joined the MVC I supported on this board also bringing Murray State into the conference to make 11 teams and a 20-game conference schedule because I saw the difficulty developing in out of conference scheduling, and I would rather two more conference games against a good team like Murray State than having two non-D1 games on the schedule. I may be wrong, but for some reason I think I remember that MVC coaches were not in favor of a 20-game conference schedule.
There is no way the MVC adds only 1 team. It's 2 teams or nothing. We discussed the reasons why on this thread in the past.
We shouldn't be adding schools because they'd be more interesting opponents than non-d1s. You ONLY add schools to the conference if you think they can help make the conference a multi bid league. They need to be consistent/proven quadrant 1 or 2 opponents. Murray might be the closest to fitting that billing, but you need a 2nd program of the same quality. NKU just isn't a proven commodity yet. I know South Dakota State is the sexy name right now, but Daum is graduating next year and their coach very well might be leaving soon. For me to consider SDSU I'd need to see a larger sample size after Daum leaves.
I stated that I know the MVC didn't like the idea of adding Murray State with Valpo for an 11-team conference. However, I don't agree with the reasoning. You only need 11 teams to create a 20-game conference schedule. Murray State is a good program that certainly would be added by the MVC if there was a good 12th team to go with them. So, they are worthy. In addition, adding Murray and creating a 20-game conference schedule should increase the strength of schedule for all in the conference, perhaps adding to the possibility of a multi-bid. I believe the positives outweigh the negatives.
UMASS still has work to do to impress the AAC it appears.
https://www.berkshireeagle.com/stories/howard-herman-designated-hitter-umass-to-aac-dont-count-on-it,549284?
Speaking of budgets, I was very surprised and impressed to see that Wright State's budget now exceeds $3million. That would put them second only to Bradley in the conference. Perhaps they are attempting to position themselves to get into the MVC one day. I could understand reluctance on the part of the conference to come that far east, but they do check a lot of boxes for the MVC. Also surprising to me was that Murray State and NKU are under $2million which would put them near the bottom of the MVC. I know budgets aren't everything but it's certainly a factor to consider.
Valpo says they're putting together an at large worthy out of conference schedule....I think there are plenty of universities out there who could be enticed to come to the MVC that are better than a majority of the out of conference schedule, and we keep hearing about how hard it is to schedule home out of conference games. That's not going to get easier.
So ideally, yes, you add teams that would make it a multi bid league. Hopefully you can add a top tier team that makes everyone better, but still adding any solid team would (hopefully/potentially?) remove the two worst bottom out of conference games for everyone in the league. Either way, you still have to move forward and strengthen your position. I'd rather be the hunter and nab a good program instead of sitting back and waiting to add a great program that may or may not ever happen. We know what being the hunted feels like (horizon league). MVC knows what it feels like with losing the two biggest cash cows. With the major conferences going to a 20 game season soon....and another shake up looming, do you think Loyola is content in the MVC? Theyre on everyone's radar now. Another run or two, then what? What's the MVC doing to make sure we dont lose any more teams? Sitting back and saying were only going to take Murray state or Murray state and Belmont doesn't seem to be the answer.
Murray State is #64 in the top 144
http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/16566
Quote from: elephtheria47 on September 03, 2018, 11:22:49 AMWhat's the MVC doing to make sure we dont lose any more teams? Sitting back and saying were only going to take Murray state or Murray state and Belmont doesn't seem to be the answer.
MVC Commissioner Elgin has never uttered a sentence like that. He and the expansion committee looked at Murray State during the time that the expansion committee was replacing WSU. There have been no commitments to Murray State to be invited to the MVC. The only thing that the MVC has committed to is possible expansion in the near future. Just like Valpo, Murray State has the chance to impress the MVC expansion committee when they feel the time comes to expand the MVC. No other commitments have been made to Murray State no matter what their AD says or what plans the Racers athletic dept makes.
I still think expansion will happen by 2020. In the meantime this is what the MVC can do to improve its lot in future expansion\realignment:
Remain a top 8 conference If we can somehow beat out at least one of the P5\BE\AAC so much the better but at least holding on to this #8 spot is key
Multiple bids at least once over the next two years
Keep up the tournament success Have at least one more deep run the deeper the better
No anchors in conference dragging down everyone's metrics
Valpo needs to recover quickly and show that a team can rise to the MVC and compete in short order. The quicker Valpo gets strong the better.
The stronger Loyola remains, the better
SIU needs a big year to stave off its negative enrollment trend
UNI needs to recover
Illinois State needs to deliver
Bradley Missouri State Indiana State Drake and Evansville need to build on the strides they are already making
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 06, 2018, 07:33:05 AM
I still think expansion will happen by 2020. In the meantime this is what the MVC can do to improve its lot in future expansion\realignment:
Remain a top 8 conference If we can somehow beat out at least one of the P5\BE\AAC so much the better but at least holding on to this #8 spot is key
Multiple bids at least once over the next two years
Keep up the tournament success Have at least one more deep run the deeper the better
No anchors in conference dragging down everyone's metrics
Valpo needs to recover quickly and show that a team can rise to the MVC and compete in short order. The quicker Valpo gets strong the better.
The stronger Loyola remains, the better
SIU needs a big year to stave off its negative enrollment trend
UNI needs to recover
Illinois State needs to deliver
Bradley Missouri State Indiana State Drake and Evansville need to build on the strides they are already making
We badly need to put together a record above .500 in the league this year. Last year we were the anchor with UNI. I was still amazed at how much UNI fell of the cliff after a pretty solid OOC performance last year. The good news is that they were more like us in that their roster had (2) contributing seniors with a bunch of underclassmen. I think UNI will make solid strides this year. I like their freshmen F (Austin Phyfe), he looked very solid against us last year and should be able to play decent in Klint Carlson and Bennet Koch's stead.
I know there are some UNI posters on this board, who can we expect to be impressed with in your front-court next year?
I think the collapse in the tournament against Texas A&M had such a profound effect on the team that it's taken multiple years to recover. Now that most of the players who were on that team have cycled out they may be able to recover. I think as long as coach Jacobson remains in place their program culture will be fine and will ensure overall success.
This isn't directly related to the MVC but it would be interesting what the fallout of this move would be if it happens.
https://www.fairfieldcitizenonline.com/sports/jeffjacobs/article/Jeff-Jacobs-Future-of-UConn-football-isn-t-13195151.php
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 06, 2018, 11:27:09 AM
This isn't directly related to the MVC but it would be interesting what the fallout of this move would be if it happens.
https://www.fairfieldcitizenonline.com/sports/jeffjacobs/article/Jeff-Jacobs-Future-of-UConn-football-isn-t-13195151.php
Big IF they actually got rid of FBS football, it's no secret that the Big East would come after them. What would happen after that, honestly I don't know if anything would immediately occur after that. The American wouldn't have any clear-cut candidates to join them, but I would guess then Army would join for football to provide balance to the conference.
My guess is Army\VCU Followed by a move by the A10. If Loyola continues to do well there's a real chance they could be the target even though the A10 said no more midwestern teams. That's why staying ahead of the A10 is so critical to the conference's future.
An old article but a good one. It's 100% right. It's past time for the MVC to embrace Murray State other considerations be darned.
https://www.tribstar.com/sports/todd-aaron-golden-mvc-needs-to-be-aggressive-and-get/article_7395c85f-d8c2-5e76-bdfb-af68beb9ae4e.html
Makes perfect sense to me.
Belmont and Murray both make sense in basketball (and of course SLU makes even more sense!). The OVC is terrible. But I can see why both Murray and especially Belmont would avoid sending their other sports teams all over Iowa, Ill, and Indiana.
Some creativity could have MVC baseball teams set up 3-4 weekends of round robin games in Saint Louis so you could get in 4-6 games for each in a long weekend Thurs-Sun. Weather sucks for baseball in the northern six schools and the constant trips waste a lot of travel/class time in cold weather. You could also consider playing soccer, track, and tennis etc with a schedule that shifts games to the north in early season and to the south later. Basketball would get 22 conference games. Fine by me. No more UC-Riverside and SIUE
Just a quick stab:
Southern division (6) of Mo State, SIU, Evansville, Indiana State, ...........Murray.............. (and SLU/Belmont)
Northern division (6) of Drake, NIU, Bradley, Illinois State, Loyola, and Valpo
You could also do it with eleven and just have 5 in the South. Realisitically, I don't think the NCAA money in most years is big and a 1/12 split vs 1/10 is nominal.
Things to be thankful for:
•A 1/10 share of the MVC share of the NCAA tourney pot every year, instead of a 1/12 share.
•Having to out perform only 9 well respected, well coached D-1 Mid Major programs (instead of 11) to win the conference and/or conference tournament championship and make a return to the NCAA tournament.
Two ideas in this post.
1 -- I noticed that SIU will be hosting Murray State tonight (ESPN+). Why haven't more MVC teams (and especially Valpo because we had a great thing going with the Racers for a while in the past) scheduled Murray in the aftermath of their bid to join the MVC? It would be a great testing ground for future expansioon and it would give MVC teams a pretty good MM OOC opponent. MSU would benefit as well with a number of MVC opponents on their OOC schedule. From a Valpo perspective, they'd be a lot more attractive to have at the ARC than Purdue NW !
2 -- BTW, I agree with some on this board that waiting for a 12th team before expnding is not in the MVC's best interests anymore. Maybe it was years ago. But the P5/6 conferences are going to 20 game conference seasons and leaving MMs one less possibility for high level competition in their OOC games. The convenience of travel partners for scheduling is not, IMO, a solid reason to deprive the conference of a good school like Murray state (even if it slightly tilts the scale toward state schools - MSU is not a commuter school which has been our HL experience and not really a good one). Going from a 1/10th share to a 1/11 share is not that great a loss in revenue, but that could, in the not too distant future, be offset by the MVC returning to a two-bid conference and adding revenue.
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2018, 02:41:15 PM
Things to be thankful for:
•A 1/10 share of the MVC share of the NCAA tourney pot every year, instead of a 1/12 share.
•Having to out perform only 9 well respected, well coached D-1 Mid Major programs (instead of 11) to win the conference and/or conference tournament championship and make a return to the NCAA tournament.
I'm coming around to wh's way of thinking. Unless, the commissioner thinks the conference could lose 1 or more teams to realignment (unlikely, IMO), the only reason to add teams is if it transforms the MVC to a consistent multi-bid league. I know many people argue that adding Murray State would ensure multiple bids, but if you look at current MVC teams + Murray State over the last 10 seasons:
- 6 teams have not been to a single NCAAT
- 3 teams have been to the NCAAT as automatic qualifiers with seeds of #11 or higher (long-shots for autobids)
- 2 teams have been to the NCAAT as automatic qualifiers with single-digit seeds (NIU as #5 and #8, Murray St as #6)
Using those data points, I don't see any evidence an 11-team MVC would earn multiple bids on a consistent basis. As proven in the 2017 MVC, having one clear-cut at-large team doesn't help you if that team also wins the conference tourney. Just my :twocents:, so feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.
In a year like the MVC and Murray State had last year they I think they absolutely would have been a two bid league. Remember Murray State beat both SIU and Illinois State (the Illinois State game was on the road) and finished with a 48 RPI in a league ranked 21 full of RPI drags, put them in a league with better metrics and it's a boon to everyone's metrics. I think Murray State would have been neck and neck with Loyola last year and Murray State would have been at least a bubble team if not an at large.
Even if adding Murray State doesn't lead to more bids if adding them sacrificing a few thousand dollars in tournament distribution money turning up the competition a bit and going to 20 conference games is what we have to do to get the non-D1s off the schedule and into the exhibition column where they belong then so be it. Who would you rather see come to the ARC in late December? An MVC team or a non-D1? I think we all know the answer to that. Plus having fewer nonconference slots reduces the "Oh we needed\wanted a game so we slapped this team on there" and should create better matchups. If you have less inventory you'll value what you have and use it more judiciously.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 05:36:40 PM
In a year like the MVC and Murray State had last year they I think they absolutely would have been a two bid league. Remember Murray State beat both SIU and Illinois State (the Illinois State game was on the road) and finished with a 48 RPI in a league ranked 21 full of RPI drags, put them in a league with better metrics and it's a boon to everyone's metrics. I think Murray State would have been neck and neck with Loyola last year and Murray State would have been at least a bubble team if not an at large.
Like I said, if you believe that Murray State makes the MVC a consistent two-bid league, then add them. I just don't see it, but I asked for dissenting views. Currently, all MVC teams and Murray are 90+ in KenPom, so any at-large quality teams this year seems like a longshot.
It only takes 2 at large bids a decade to make a single addition worthwhile. I think Murray State could get us there.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 06:19:01 PM
Even if adding Murray State doesn't lead to more bids if adding them sacrificing a few thousand dollars in tournament distribution money turning up the competition a bit and going to 20 conference games is what we have to do to get the non-D1s off the schedule and into the exhibition column where they belong then so be it. Who would you rather see come to the ARC in late December? An MVC team or a non-D1? I think we all know the answer to that. Plus having fewer nonconference slots reduces the "Oh we needed\wanted a game so we slapped this team on there" and should create better matchups. If you have less inventory you'll value what you have and use it more judiciously.
I agree with the scheduling part of this. Any time Valpo can get scheduling assistance through a MTE, conference challenge series or additional conference games, they should take it.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
It only takes 2 at large bids a decade to make a single addition worthwhile. I think Murray State could get us there.
I'm watching the SIU-Murray St game and have quickly concluded that the Racers are the best team in the Valley.
Wait! You say we never invited them in? :o Never mind
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 06:19:01 PM
Even if adding Murray State doesn't lead to more bids if adding them sacrificing a few thousand dollars in tournament distribution money turning up the competition a bit and going to 20 conference games is what we have to do to get the non-D1s off the schedule and into the exhibition column where they belong then so be it. Who would you rather see come to the ARC in late December? An MVC team or a non-D1? I think we all know the answer to that. Plus having fewer nonconference slots reduces the "Oh we needed\wanted a game so we slapped this team on there" and should create better matchups. If you have less inventory you'll value what you have and use it more judiciously.
1 unit = $265,000 in 2017
1/10th = $26,500
1/11th = $24,090
1/12th = $22,084
Just for a frame of reference. I had to look it up myself. Are we really ONLY sacrificing that little to go to 12 teams? Anyone know how much "other" money is sacrificed in the 12 team MVC?
Also, that's assuming we split evenly the 1 unit, no clue the MVC rules for profit sharing.
Quote from: justducky on December 12, 2018, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
It only takes 2 at large bids a decade to make a single addition worthwhile. I think Murray State could get us there.
I'm watching the SIU-Murray St game and have quickly concluded that the Racers are the best team in the Valley.
Wait! You say we never invited them in? :o Never mind
SIU got a late bucket to end an 11 minute famine. 49-18 halftime in Carbondale.
An hour ago I was leaning towards agreement with those wanting to keep Murray out. ;)
They need to be added immediately. There was no valid argument against them before and there's even less of one now. 11 or 12 shouldn't matter. Add whatever 12th you want just get Murray State in.
80-52 final. Murray raced away with it. At Carbondale.
Over on MVCFANS forum they have started a thread titled "Our League Is Braindead". ??? Wonder what that could be about?
Quote from: justducky on December 12, 2018, 09:03:36 PM
Over on MVCFANS forum they have started a thread titled "Our League Is Braindead". ??? Wonder what that could be about?
Yes, the mvc is what's preventing their program from reaching the sweet 16
That thread is bang-on.
In case they MVC board turns that into a thread about how they should have picked Murray instead of us....
http://www.valpoathletics.com/mbasketball/news/2014-15/14166/crusaders-explode-in-win-over-murray-state/
Murray was pretty good that year.... I think they had like a 15 game win streak after we beat them by 30+
I personally would love to see Murray State in the MVC and see the strengthening of schedule (by going to more conference games) as more valuable than the cost of sharing NCAA tournament revenues across 11 or 12 teams.
However, there is one factor regarding Murray State that has not been discussed here. The travel to Murray State is far from ideal, because Murray is remote. You either fly into Paducah (from Chicago, I guess) and drive 45 minutes or you fly into Nashville and drive two hours. It is a two hour drive from Carbondale, which may be the most remote school in the Valley now. For some schools, bus will be the only option to get to Murray (five hour drive from Illinois State, Bradley, Missouri State and nine hour drive from Drake).
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 12, 2018, 09:57:01 PMI personally would love to see Murray State in the MVC and see the strengthening of schedule (by going to more conference games) as more valuable than the cost of sharing NCAA tournament revenues across 11 or 12 teams. However, there is one factor regarding Murray State that has not been discussed here. The travel to Murray State is far from ideal, because Murray is remote. You either fly into Paducah (from Chicago, I guess) and drive 45 minutes or you fly into Nashville and drive two hours. It is a two hour drive from Carbondale, which may be the most remote school in the Valley now. For some schools, bus will be the only option to get to Murray (five hour drive from Illinois State, Bradley, Missouri State and nine hour drive from Drake).
Those schools need to suck it up. Our league needs this.
Got to admire the entitlement of MVC fans who've done the impressive act of exist in the same conference as Wichita State for years.
Quote from: a3uge on December 12, 2018, 10:39:18 PMGot to admire the entitlement of MVC fans who've done the impressive act of exist in the same conference as Wichita State for years.
What do you mean?
For all your spouting off on others, a3uge, did you even bother to read the thread?
It's nothing like you describe.
Exactly. There hasn't been one anti-Valpo post in there. I've read every one and posted in it. They're right: Not adding Murray State at the time was a colossally stupid error that needs to be rectified immediately. That's not a swipe at Valpo or a belief that Valpo was a bad addition (trust me I'm very sensitive to that kind of stuff) it's a simple statement of fact: Murray State should have been added. Not over Valpo but alongside.
If anything it's a swipe at Loyola for giving them five years of suck and contributing to the running off of Wichita State before finally paying off. Or at Belmont for being a bunch of chickens or at their own university presidents\ADs who voted down the original idea of 11 with Valpo and Murray. Rothstein and Norlander didn't pull that report out of their cabooses. It had to come from somewhere. I think a Valpo\Murray combo was Elgin's original plan and the presidents told him no so he went with Valpo as the school that would make the most people happy. He then left open the idea of expansion because he wants Murray really badly as well.
It's up to the presidents (especially those who voted against the Valpo\Murray proposal the first time) to get off their high horses, make a sacrifice for the good of the league for once instead of just taking all the time, pony up the extra dollars, figure out the scheduling, admit their mistake and just get it done already. It's past time for the Racers to join the MVC. The survival and viability of the MVC as a highly competitive basketball league that can garner at large bids may just depend on this.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 11:20:05 PM
Exactly. There hasn't been one anti-Valpo post in there. I've read every one and posted in it. They're right: Not adding Murray State at the time was a colossally stupid error that needs to be rectified immediately. That's not a swipe at Valpo or a belief that Valpo was a bad addition (trust me I'm very sensitive to that kind of stuff) it's a simple statement of fact: Murray State should have been added. Not over Valpo but alongside.
If anything it's a swipe at Loyola for giving them five years of suck and contributing to the running off of Wichita State before finally paying off. Or at Belmont for being a bunch of chickens or at their own university presidents\ADs who voted down the original idea of 11 with Valpo and Murray. Rothstein and Norlander didn't pull that report out of their cabooses. It had to come from somewhere. I think a Valpo\Murray combo was Elgin's original plan and the presidents told him no so he went with Valpo as the school that would make the most people happy. He then left open the idea of expansion because he wants Murray really badly as well.
It's up to the presidents (especially those who voted against the Valpo\Murray proposal the first time) to get off their high horses, make a sacrifice for the good of the league for once instead of just taking all the time, pony up the extra dollars, figure out the scheduling, admit their mistake and just get it done already. It's past time for the Racers to join the MVC. The survival and viability of the MVC as a highly competitive basketball league that can garner at large bids may just depend on this.
I didn't say it was a swipe at Valpo, although you can find plenty of those in threads predating the conference switch. Calling the MVC braindead is stupid, since the addition of Murray Sate, Belmont, etc won't do anything for the other MVC programs. Adding Murray state means marginally better SOS, which is essentially useless because mid majors don't get at large bids anymore.
Quote from: a3uge on December 12, 2018, 11:25:46 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 11:20:05 PM
Exactly. There hasn't been one anti-Valpo post in there. I've read every one and posted in it. They're right: Not adding Murray State at the time was a colossally stupid error that needs to be rectified immediately. That's not a swipe at Valpo or a belief that Valpo was a bad addition (trust me I'm very sensitive to that kind of stuff) it's a simple statement of fact: Murray State should have been added. Not over Valpo but alongside.
If anything it's a swipe at Loyola for giving them five years of suck and contributing to the running off of Wichita State before finally paying off. Or at Belmont for being a bunch of chickens or at their own university presidents\ADs who voted down the original idea of 11 with Valpo and Murray. Rothstein and Norlander didn't pull that report out of their cabooses. It had to come from somewhere. I think a Valpo\Murray combo was Elgin's original plan and the presidents told him no so he went with Valpo as the school that would make the most people happy. He then left open the idea of expansion because he wants Murray really badly as well.
It's up to the presidents (especially those who voted against the Valpo\Murray proposal the first time) to get off their high horses, make a sacrifice for the good of the league for once instead of just taking all the time, pony up the extra dollars, figure out the scheduling, admit their mistake and just get it done already. It's past time for the Racers to join the MVC. The survival and viability of the MVC as a highly competitive basketball league that can garner at large bids may just depend on this.
I didn't say it was a swipe at Valpo, although you can find plenty of those in threads predating the conference switch. Calling the MVC braindead is stupid, since the addition of Murray Sate, Belmont, etc won't do anything for the other MVC programs. Adding Murray state means marginally better SOS, which is essentially useless because mid majors don't get at large bids anymore.
The A-10 which finished behind the MVC got 3 bids. The Mountain West which also finished behind the MVC got 2 bids. Yet Loyola couldn't get over the goal line without winning Arch Madness? Sounds to me like a scheduling\SOS problem that perhaps a team like Murray State or a similar caliber addition could have helped alleviate. That "modest bump in SOS" probably could have made a difference to Valpo back in 2016 or Illinois State back in 2017 or a host of mids throughout history who just missed. It's worth a lot more than you think and should not be dismissed so casually. If winning is the #1 factor SOS is 1A.
Quote from: justducky on December 12, 2018, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
It only takes 2 at large bids a decade to make a single addition worthwhile. I think Murray State could get us there.
I'm watching the SIU-Murray St game and have quickly concluded that the Racers I'll hare the best team in the Valley.
St
Wait! You say we never invited them in? :o A dodge I Never mind
Even if Murray State is better than anyone in the Valley, in no way would they make the Valley a 2-bid League this year if they were a member. There won't be an at-large resume in the entire roster of MVC teams tho year. All it would mean is a different program would represent the league in the tournament and we would split the pot 11 ways instead of 10.
People on this board who continue to sing Murray State's praises and continue to criticize Elgin for not adding both Valpo and Murray State might do well to show a little more humility. After our pathetic showing in year-1, if Elgin is second guessing anything, more likely it's that the league didn't add Murray State instead of Valpo.
All we are to this league is a first year bust that talks a good game, but has yet to prove a thing. The most appropriate thing we can do is get our nose out of league business and get our own house in order. Valpo men's basketball is on the precipice right now. We have an inexperienced head coach, a crap facility, declining attendance, waning student support, and we're coming off a disastrous season. The future of this program is hanging in the balance. That's all I'm concerned about right now. I'll start worrying about NCAA tournament bids when this program gives us a reason to worry about it.
Quote from: wh on December 13, 2018, 02:09:27 AM
Quote from: justducky on December 12, 2018, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
It only takes 2 at large bids a decade to make a single addition worthwhile. I think Murray State could get us there.
I'm watching the SIU-Murray St game and have quickly concluded that the Racers I'll hare the best team in the Valley.
St
Wait! You say we never invited them in? :o A dodge I Never mind
Even if Murray State is better than anyone in the Valley, in no way would they make the Valley a 2-bid League this year if they were a member. There won't be an at-large resume in the entire roster of MVC teams tho year. All it would mean is a different program would represent the league in the tournament and we would split the pot 11 ways instead of 10.
People on this board who continue to sing Murray State's praises and continue to criticize Elgin for not adding both Valpo and Murray State might do well to show a little more humility. After our pathetic showing in year-1, if Elgin is second guessing anything, more likely it's that the league didn't add Murray State instead of Valpo.
All we are to this league is a first year bust that talks a good game, but has yet to prove a thing. The most appropriate thing we can do is get our nose out of league business and get our own house in order. Valpo men's basketball is on the precipice right now. We have an inexperienced head coach, a crap facility, declining attendance, waning student support, and we're coming off a disastrous season. The future of this program is hanging in the balance. That's all I'm concerned about right now. I'll start worrying about NCAA tournament bids when this program gives us a reason to worry about it.
I strongly agree that we need to get our house in order. I don't care a thing for expansion while it only makes it harder for us to get the only assures bid (the league winner).
I also think we should be a "silent" party in deciding such things while all we have done is finish 10/10 in year one. Don't take this as my lack of excitement for the program, take it as "we are acting like the new employee at an 80-year old company who has all the good ideas that should immediately change our destiny"....we are sort of smug.
Quote from: wh on December 13, 2018, 02:09:27 AM
Quote from: justducky on December 12, 2018, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
It only takes 2 at large bids a decade to make a single addition worthwhile. I think Murray State could get us there.
I'm watching the SIU-Murray St game and have quickly concluded that the Racers I'll hare the best team in the Valley.
St
Wait! You say we never invited them in? :o A dodge I Never mind
Even if Murray State is better than anyone in the Valley, in no way would they make the Valley a 2-bid League this year if they were a member. There won't be an at-large resume in the entire roster of MVC teams tho year. All it would mean is a different program would represent the league in the tournament and we would split the pot 11 ways instead of 10.
People on this board who continue to sing Murray State's praises and continue to criticize Elgin for not adding both Valpo and Murray State might do well to show a little more humility. After our pathetic showing in year-1, if Elgin is second guessing anything, more likely it's that the league didn't add Murray State instead of Valpo.
All we are to this league is a first year bust that talks a good game, but has yet to prove a thing. The most appropriate thing we can do is get our nose out of league business and get our own house in order. Valpo men's basketball is on the precipice right now. We have an inexperienced head coach, a crap facility, declining attendance, waning student support, and we're coming off a disastrous season. The future of this program is hanging in the balance. That's all I'm concerned about right now. I'll start worrying about NCAA tournament bids when this program gives us a reason to worry about it.
First of all expansion decisions are driven by the presidents not Elgin. The anti 11 sentiment and the decision not to invite Murray State alongside Valpo rested with them not him. All anger should be directed at them not him. They are the ones who need to be motivated to do aomething Elgin simply acts for them.
Second,In a bad year for this program we still beat everyone in the top 6 except Loyola including a sweep of Drake and we were in virtually every game in conference despite having a young shorthanded team. Were the results disappointing? Sure. Was the team mediocre? You bet. But the season was hardly a disaster. Individual games were but the season as a whole was not. The program isn't hanging in the balance or on the precipice because of one 15-17 season. To assert otherwise is being melodramatic (something I'm admittedly frequently guilty of being in my own posts. It's a message board. We all do it.)
The fact is that we joined a league that was about as strong as this one is now (maybe a little weaker)back in 07-08. It took us until our fifth year to finish higher than fourth and then we grabbed the mantle and never looked back. Do you know who else took until year 5 to do anything after they switched leagues? Loyola. Do you know who says we're ahead of where his team was at this same point in their transition to the MVC? Porter Moser--the same coach who just won the MVC by 4 games and went to the final 4. I think he would know a thing or two about this transition and how hard it is. I bet Elgin if it really was his decision alone wished he could have the Loyola over Valpo decision back several times before 2018. I'll give you some examples:
1. When Loyola won 4 MVC games in 13-14 (compare to Valpo's 6 last year )
2. When Loyola still hadn't finished above .500 in the MVC in year 3 but Valpo was tearing up the NIT
3. When Illinois State lost out on an at-large bid by an eyelash and Loyola still hadn`t finished above .500 in the NIT and Valpo was racking up another conference title
4. When Wichita State It's unlikely that Valpo could have made them stay but you can be sure that Loyola's continued mediocrity up to that point was a contributing factor
I'm willing to bet that until Loyola finally broke out he thought "what have we done? Adding Loyola instead of Valpo has harmed the longterm health of this conference and for what? Less than 2000 fans a night in Chicago? I should have never put market over program and if I get another chance I won't."That's why we're here and that's why Murray State got a visit. Now Murray State hasn't been added like they should have been this offseason because the presidents either: 1. are fat and happy gorging on the money their schools did not earn themselves or 2. Want a big market for student recruitment preferably with good academics. UMKC Omaha and Milwaukee didn't pass the competitiveness test and will probably take longer than Loyola did to get competitive while UIC was redundant and NKU lacks the track record but is probably our best shot at a non-Belmont compromise that will make the presidents happy. My firm belief is that they may be close to settling on NKU barring an unforeseen position shift by Belmont or SLU but they want to be absolutely sure. The problem is Murray State is forcing their hand.
Your point about declining attendance is true everywhere not just here. We should do whatever we can to forestall the decline and it looks like VU is taking steps toward this end but College basketball is an unkind business you have to win to draw fans. Nothing sells or fills stadiums gyms and arenas quite like a steady stream of W's preferably against quality competition. This is all especially true in Chicago where there's so much competition for entertainment dollars. I think Paul just mentioned on USH that Loyola is already dealing with attendance issues thanks to their early struggles. The final 4 banner isn't even fully unfurled yet and the players don't even have a tan line where they wear their final 4 rings and the memory is already fading. We are fortunate in Valpo that it's easier to build and keep a fanbase here. If we ever made a final 4 I bet our attendance numbers would stay elevated for years. But that's only guaranteed if the team stays competitive.
You also appear to have missed that the chairback section is almost completely sold out for the Ball State game. Yes the tickets are half price but we've tried that against non-D1s and still struggle to get more than 50% full. Opponent\scheduling matters. (which we agree on I know)
Which brings me to my next point: Schools and conferences should do whatever they can to enhance their schedules. Murray State does that. Competition is good. The money cost (augmented solely by Loyola's deep run) is (still)worth that. The fact is that Illinois State missed because they underscheduled. Loyola would have struggled on the bubble last year because they underscheduled. In Illinois State's case, the margin was razor thin a little bump would have helped. With the year Murray State had last year it would have added legitimacy to the conference and to Loyola's performance to have a second top 50 team in conference. That would have helped either team's case with the committee.
How is it showing hubris toward our conference mates by showing them that we're on the same page and want to see the conference grow stronger? We are not being smug by advocating the same position as most of the fans of the MVC who care enough to post. I bet most who don't post agree too because adding Murray State just makes sense to seemingly everyone except the stick in the mud presidents. Unfortunately for the fans, the conference, and mid major basketball in general the ones holding up the league's progress are the same ones who hold the decision-making power on these issues. (Valpo officials are excepted from any criticism of MVC member presidents in this and future posts because they have never voted against the league's interests by rejecting Murray State and because they have already demonstrated and continue to demonstrate a sizable financial commitment just to get us here and to work toward ensuring our success now that we're here.)
The students and fans will show up for a good promotion a good opponent and when the team is winning. We have 2 out of 3 so far for Ball State. If we win that game and (especially if we also beat Texas A&M) we'll still have 2 out of 3 as we head into conference play. If at least 2 of these conditions are met we should have solid crowds.
Your last sentence is telling and to my mind exposes some inconsistencies in your thinking:
Your main argument against adding Murray State is monetary yet they elevate the profile and strength of the league which means they can make the conference and by extension Valpo more money. Conference success is Valpo's success whether Valpo does it or not because conference success brings Valpo more money and even raises their profile by association. Loyola's run did the most good for Loyola of any MVC member but make no mistake Loyola's run was good for the entire MVC.
You only care about whether Valpo gets bids and that's fine but a rising tide lifts all boats. What's more, when it's Valpo's time to shine among its MVC peers they will benefit from any boost of strength the MVC can muster. The more good teams we have the better our seed and the greater our chances to do something in the tournament. Goodbye 13-15 range hello 10-12 range or perhaps even higher.
You're a very vocal critic of the administration the facilities and the scheduling so you want everyone associated with the program to work much harder yet when an idea comes along that actually improves the scheduling and will force everyone to work harder you're against it because of an initial investment that should pay off quickly of about $10K-15K\year to add Murray State and that number is only so high because Loyola went to the Final 4.
You're concerned about the coach but you don't want to play Murray State a program that could help us learn whether we have the right coach sooner and fix any problems sooner twice a year.
I know that the focus is on basketball but it should be mentioned that the move has been fine for our other programs so far as well. Far from a disaster.
Softball finished 4th last year and won a game in the tournament
Womens basketball won a game in the tournament
Baseball which took a big step up won a game in the tournament
Women's soccer qualified for the tournament in year one
Volleyball which also took a big step up has qualified for the tournament both years won a game in year two and advanced to the quarterfinals of the NIVC.
I know the results in basketball aren't there yet and I know that's frustrating. I feel it too but a move like this requires time patience and faith. They're working harder than they ever have on the fans' concerns. Tangible improvements should start to arrive in the near future. As for the on-court product, I think the team is hungry and ready to be challenged. That and learning their roles could explain their uneven play. I think they'll embrace and succeed in the challenge of conference play. Just have faith that the results will come or that the right person to deliver them will. How can you look at the league this year and conclude that we don't have a chance to have a good year?
A lot to digest there - If the goal is to make the league better as a whole in basketball, you add Murray State. No brainer. But adding Murray State is not going to get the league multiple bids, other than maybe once in a great while. Murray State has been seeded high enough once in the last 20 years to say they were an at-large worthy team (2012). That year they beat a really good Memphis team on the road and beat Saint Mary's at home. As good as the MVC is as a league, beating mostly 100-150 level teams really doesn't enhance an at-large resume. Doesn't kill it like losing to someone in the current HL or OVC (outside of Murray State or Belmont) would, but also isn't going to get you in.
Oddly enough, the loss that might have kept Illinois State out of the tournament in 2017 was to Murray State. In 2016 the only MVC win that would have enhanced Valpo's at-large resume would have been Wichita State. Last year was a magical year in the tournament for Loyola and the MVC. However, to get multiple bids, the league doesn't need a rising tide to lift all boats. They need one or 2 boats to really stand out consistently well above the rest of the schools in the league. Whether that's Valpo, Loyola or another school remains to be seen, but last year the bottom of the league was as good or better than it's ever been and Loyola still needed to win Arch Madness to get in the tourney.
[/quote]
I strongly agree that we need to get our house in order. I don't care a thing for expansion while it only makes it harder for us to get the only assures bid (the league winner).
I also think we should be a "silent" party in deciding such things while all we have done is finish 10/10 in year one. Don't take this as my lack of excitement for the program, take it as "we are acting like the new employee at an 80-year old company who has all the good ideas that should immediately change our destiny"....we are sort of smug.
[/quote]
New mascot and name solved -- Valpo Millennials (SI 8-))
Valpo vs. Murray State:
2012-13 @ Murray -- Valpo wins 66-64 (Murray had Canaan on their team)
2013-14 @ Valpo -- Valpo wins 77-74. (Murray had Payne on their team)
2014-15 @ Neutral court -- Valpo wins 93 - 58. (Murray had Payne on their team)
In the years leading up to the decision on who to add Valpo did what they needed to do to get the MVC invite. We beat some very good Murray teams when they had NBA talent. Now we need to get our S**t together and get good again to prove they made the right decision.
Honest Question....
How many bids would the MVC get most years if we added 4 teams and became a 14 team league trying to mimic the A10? (Saint Louis/South Dakota State/Murray State/Belmont) Those 4 programs are all historically good, but if adding them doesn't guarantee at least 4 NCAA bids a year than even that wouldn't be worth it and I don't see the MVC being a 4 bid league even adding all 4, does anybody else?
What it would do is make the regular season more fun, maybe move to 20 game conference schedule to make scheduling easier and have more competitive home games for everyone, but I am not sure it gets us enough at-large bids to make it worth it. Because right now either Belmont or Murray is going to make it from the OVC every year, at least 1 current MVC team is going to make it with an auto bid, South Dakota is going to make it most years from the Summit, and St. Louis has a fighting chance in the A10 when they put a good squad together. So without a guarantee of 4 bids why would those 4 teams come over?
Because that's probably a 2-3 bid league which is a heck of a lot better than the current MVC and anything each new member but SLU already has. That might be enough to justify Belmont and SDSU giving up the local tournaments and paying the travel costs. The tough sell is SLU. It's a massive travel win but you're asking them to give up the institutional fit and the East Coast recruiting which was difficult even when the MVC was getting 2-3 bids consistently. I would be all for that though.
Why are you so positive about us and the MVC?????????????
Quote from: wh on December 13, 2018, 02:09:27 AM
Quote from: justducky on December 12, 2018, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 12, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
It only takes 2 at large bids a decade to make a single addition worthwhile. I think Murray State could get us there.
I'm watching the SIU-Murray St game and have quickly concluded that the Racers I'll hare the best team in the Valley.
St
Wait! You say we never invited them in? :o A dodge I Never mind
Even if Murray State is better than anyone in the Valley, in no way would they make the Valley a 2-bid League this year if they were a member. There won't be an at-large resume in the entire roster of MVC teams tho year. All it would mean is a different program would represent the league in the tournament and we would split the pot 11 ways instead of 10.
People on this board who continue to sing Murray State's praises and continue to criticize Elgin for not adding both Valpo and Murray State might do well to show a little more humility. After our pathetic showing in year-1, if Elgin is second guessing anything, more likely it's that the league didn't add Murray State instead of Valpo.
All we are to this league is a first year bust that talks a good game, but has yet to prove a thing. The most appropriate thing we can do is get our nose out of league business and get our own house in order. Valpo men's basketball is on the precipice right now. We have an inexperienced head coach, a crap facility, declining attendance, waning student support, and we're coming off a disastrous season. The future of this program is hanging in the balance. That's all I'm concerned about right now. I'll start worrying about NCAA tournament bids when this program gives us a reason to worry about it.
Completely agree with the first paragraph. The MVC isn't a two bid league with Murray State and wouldn't have been a two bid league last year, even swapping Murray State for Valpo. If Loyola had lost the conference tournament, they wouldn't have an at-large. Adding two wins over Murray State would have meant two wins over a non top 25/50 team. This is the only metric the selection committee has looked at for the past 5-10 years. Since the MVC isn't top heavy and teams 1-10 beat up on each other, Loyola was disqualified from an at-large bid. And I don't lump the A10 or the MW in with the rest of the mid majors. The budgets of the top 5 teams in that conference are significantly higher than the MVC.
As for Elgin having regret... He may, but almost nobody in the MVC has justification to whine about this. I'm not sure how Murray State would turn their programs into at-larges, when Wichita State wasn't even able to do so. Valpo needs to look inward, but so does everybody else. Almost all of these programs have been marred in medicority for several years now. Beyond UNI and 1 year of Loyola, no program has been a consistent top ~50 program.
Quote from: valpo64 on December 13, 2018, 12:21:05 PMWhy are you so positive about us and the MVC?????????????
Because this is like a dream come true for Valpo. It's the best midmajor conference in the midwest and allows not only the basketball team but the entire athletic department to compete at a really high level offering multiple sports the potential for at large bids. It's the best situation a midwestern school of our location size and budget can hope for given that we aren't urban and don't have FBS or even scholarship football. But mostly it feels like home in a way the HL never did. Closer schools more private schools more in-state schools not as urban\commuter oriented more basketball focused more passionate fan bases. That's why I'm so positive.
As for Valpo's role in the MVC I just believe that we will rise to the occasion as we have in the past. It took awhile to get going in the HL and our facilities lagged behind many in the conference and that turned out great. None of it mattered as much as the program . Obviously now it will be harder we have further to go and our program's strength will be tested by other great programs but challenge is never a bad thing. Programs grow from it and ours shouldn't be an exception to that rule. I see no evidence yet that Valpo is in over its head or has made a mistake and is hurting its program and I don't expect to see any.
That said here's a note on Murray State after having some time to cool down and gather myself after last night's impressive showing. Full disclosure I am still 100% in favor of adding them ASAP BUT:
It is possible that Ja Morant is their Alec Peters and that they might struggle with the transition to the MVC as we have as they search for their next go to star. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be added but it does mean that there's a chance that they won't immediately solve all of our problems.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on December 13, 2018, 07:58:27 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on December 13, 2018, 12:21:05 PMWhy are you so positive about us and the MVC?????????????
Because this is like a dream come true for Valpo. It's the best midmajor conference in the midwest and allows not only the basketball team but the entire athletic department to compete at a really high level offering multiple sports the potential for at large bids. It's the best situation a midwestern school of our location size and budget can hope for given that we aren't urban and don't have football. But mostly it feels like home in a way the HL never did. Closer schools more private schools more in-state schools not as urban\commuter oriented more basketball focused more passionate fan bases. That's why I'm so positive.
As for Valpo's role in the MVC I just believe that we will rise to the occasion as we have in the past. It took awhile to get going in the HL and our facilities lagged behind many in the conference and that turned out great. None of it mattered as much as the program . Obviously now it will be harder we have further to go and our program's strength will be tested by other great programs but challenge is never a bad thing. Programs grow from it and ours shouldn't be an exception to that rule. I see no evidence yet that Valpo is in over its head or has made a mistake and is hurting its program and I don't expect to see any.
That said here's a note on Murray State after having some time to cool down and gather myself after last night's impressive showing. Full disclosure I am still 100% in favor of adding them ASAP BUT:
It is possible that Ja Morant is their Alec Peters and that they might struggle with the transition to the MVC as we have as they search for their next go to star. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be added but it does mean that there's a chance that they won't immediately solve all of our problems.
VUgrad1314, I hope your optimism and energy persists on the forum for years to come. Please don't be discouraged by my (and others') less optimistic views than yours. Just as you show emotion in your posts, I might show emotion in trying to cool your jets!! It's all in good fun and I hope you keep sharing your POV.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 13, 2018, 08:10:19 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on December 13, 2018, 07:58:27 PMQuote from: valpo64 on December 13, 2018, 12:21:05 PMWhy are you so positive about us and the MVC?????????????
Because this is like a dream come true for Valpo. It's the best midmajor conference in the midwest and allows not only the basketball team but the entire athletic department to compete at a really high level offering multiple sports the potential for at large bids. It's the best situation a midwestern school of our location size and budget can hope for given that we aren't urban and don't have football. But mostly it feels like home in a way the HL never did. Closer schools more private schools more in-state schools not as urban\commuter oriented more basketball focused more passionate fan bases. That's why I'm so positive. As for Valpo's role in the MVC I just believe that we will rise to the occasion as we have in the past. It took awhile to get going in the HL and our facilities lagged behind many in the conference and that turned out great. None of it mattered as much as the program . Obviously now it will be harder we have further to go and our program's strength will be tested by other great programs but challenge is never a bad thing. Programs grow from it and ours shouldn't be an exception to that rule. I see no evidence yet that Valpo is in over its head or has made a mistake and is hurting its program and I don't expect to see any. That said here's a note on Murray State after having some time to cool down and gather myself after last night's impressive showing. Full disclosure I am still 100% in favor of adding them ASAP BUT: It is possible that Ja Morant is their Alec Peters and that they might struggle with the transition to the MVC as we have as they search for their next go to star. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be added but it does mean that there's a chance that they won't immediately solve all of our problems.
VUgrad1314, I hope your optimism and energy persists on the forum for years to come. Please don't be discouraged by my (and others') less optimistic views than yours. Just as you show emotion in your posts, I might show emotion in trying to cool your jets!! It's all in good fun and I hope you keep sharing your POV.
Thanks. I hope you and everyone who is less optimistic continues to post as well. I love discussion so I enjoy trying to address every point if I can. That's why so many of my posts are so long. I also try very hard to be fair-minded and factual. I may be proven wrong by time and experience but I try to provide reasonable well-researched takes and content filtered through the prism of the emotion of a lifelong (almost) resident and fan who is also an alum. That's why I'm frequently emotional and perhaps sometimes slightly inconsistent though not usually. I like to think I've mostly kept true to my goals. I wear my heart on my sleeve and I post what I feel or information\speculation I find interesting and that's exactly who I am.
As you've seen on the game threads I am far from an eternal optimist but I tend to see the good of situations and most of my posts are optimistic because things ARE good. Yeah we sucked last year, yes I'm anxious to see the team perform well and prove that they belong because I love this team and conference and want to see both do well but we weren't THAT bad last year we're in a top 10 conference the tournament coffers are filling again we're treated to terrific high level basketball every night from Jan-Mar our radio reach into the region is expanding, we're on TV (local and national) more than ever, we have a puncher's chance at at large bids, life is good and we've been blessed. How many programs get to jump up in weight class twice in a decade? We have the opportunity most every school in our former conferences would love to have. We're living the dream athletically for a small suburban private school. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for better when opportunity falls into our lap (Murray State)
Getting a bad seed and losing in the first round sucks so having that 10 or 11 seed could really help us some year we should also be able to play our way into the NIT more frequently. Remember how much fun 2016 was? We should be able to have that more here if we do what's expected of us and pull our weight.
If anything I've ever posted has offended anyone I'm sorry. Nothing I type here is meant to be personal toward anyone. I attack positions not people posts not posters. If I come off as arrogant or condescending I apologize. I use things like rhetorical questions as devices to frame my arguments. I'm not trying to talk down to anyone. I think if we ever met at a game or an alumni event we'd get along great because we all love sports and all want the same thing: to see Valpo light up every opponent that comes to the ARC. Go Valpo!
This is just a thought that's been buzzing around my head for a bit:
The P5 significantly hurt mid-major basketball through aggressive expansion campaigns what if we did the same to low major conferences to help wrestle some of that control of the tournament bubble back? For example could you imagine with the year the SOCON is having if Belmont Lipscomb and Liberty were there? Or the MVC with teams like Murray State NKU and South Dakota State? Or how about a WCC with Seattle U and GCU and the MWC with NMSU. We could create several midmajor superconferences where chances for quality wins abound throughout the year and give our second or even perhaps third best teams legitimate hope for an at-large bid or at least a high NIT seed. We would all take our P5 crumbs\MTEs and then play each other with the remaining spots in our nonconference schedule thereby ensuring enough chances for quality wins and a good string SOS for everyone.
The problem is, when the P5 did that, they stole bubble spots/bids from the mid majors. Where or who are the mid majors stealing bids from? The lower conferences are still going to get one team in. But I agree that MVC needs to expand because a) theres always a bubble team or two that doesnt deserve getting in and that could be the difference to tip it in the MM favor b) need to establish the MVC as the clear best mid major league to get some late blooming talent or p5 busts who transfer out and c) the AAC is shaky right now and another round of realignment is shaping up to happen in the next year or two
They're not necessarily taking spots from anyone (though if the movement gets aggressive enough you could see 1-4 conferences dissolve) this is about absorbing the top of the low majors to improve our own metrics from within by reducing the amount of bad losses in conference by allowing for more creative scheduling and more chances at quality wins. The super conferences then play each other in the non-con when not playing P5\MTE games and fill in the schedule with regional low majors to eliminate non-D1s. This boosts SOS and NET rating and takes the fight directly to the P5. It's basically Mark Adams scheduling ideas except we cut out the middle man and do it ourselves. It forces to P5 and\or the NCAA to try something else to keep us out.
AAC is shaky? Where are you getting that?
Conference realignment in the next year or two? No, not until the tv contracts expire. I think the ACC or big 12 are first in 2025.
Belmont won't join because basketball at our level is not a big revenue producer like in the P5 or especially like football.
It is far wiser for Belmont to look at their footprint for all sports because costs are a much bigger factor for conference choice than new "hypothetical" revenue gains from a bid in a 12-team MVC or a higher seed when it happens.
SLU needs to look at that calculus through the same lens. They are not Marquette or even Dayton in strength. Two years ago I kept hearing they were squeezed financially. It seems they don't have the luxury of a massive net loss in athletics just to keep the candle burning that they will be a national player again. Flying to Fordham, St. Bon, UMass, for multiple sports is just STUPID at a maximum level. The faculty must be mad enough to spit. Their current KenPom matches even with Loyola (a natural catholic rival). Right now they do well in the A10 in hoops but they could contend easily for a bid every year in the MVC and eventually get back success and attendance revenue. I'm sure Elgin checks in often from his address in the same city.
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 19, 2019, 12:18:58 PM
Belmont won't join because basketball at our level is not a big revenue producer like in the P5 or especially like football.
It is far wiser for Belmont to look at their footprint for all sports because costs are a much bigger factor for conference choice than new "hypothetical" revenue gains from a bid in a 12-team MVC or a higher seed when it happens.
SLU needs to look at that calculus through the same lens. They are not Marquette or even Dayton in strength. Two years ago I kept hearing they were squeezed financially. It seems they don't have the luxury of a massive net loss in athletics just to keep the candle burning that they will be a national player again. Flying to Fordham, St. Bon, UMass, for multiple sports is just STUPID at a maximum level. The faculty must be mad enough to spit. Their current KenPom matches even with Loyola (a natural catholic rival). Right now they do well in the A10 in hoops but they could contend easily for a bid every year in the MVC and eventually get back success and attendance revenue. I'm sure Elgin checks in often from his address in the same city.
Looking for a conference affiliation thread on Billikens.com I did notice this on a post about St Louis becoming an NBA city:
Richard Chaifetz: 'I'd love to be involved' in bringing an NBA team to St. Louis
... In a wide ranging interview Sunday with the Business Journal, Chaifetz affirmed the sentiment that he thinks St. Louis is an NBA city. Would he be interesting in owning a local NBA team or helping to bring the league to St. Louis?
"I'd love to be involved with a team in St. Louis in the NBA. It'd be great for the city," he said. They, as a board, are not interested in changing conferences.
The board, in general, gets excited about their conference tournament in Brooklyn and playing on the east coast.
The SLUMBB did catch a break in the sexual assault case:
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/slu/no-criminal-charges-in-case-related-to-slu-s-title/article_39d796b5-67d3-594c-8a25-aff0b53ef4e2.html#tracking-source=home-the-latest
https://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/news/2018/12/10/sources-u-of-m-offered-bigger-piece-of-tv-deal-to.html
That article mentioned the AAC contract runs out in 2020. They are asking their members to sign a grant of rights agreement so they can negotiate a bigger media contract, but that didn't go over so well.
UCF will be looking for a better spot for their football program. Went undefeated and still didn't sniff the playoff talk.
And these articles came out over the weekend about UCONN's huge financial problems. https://www.courant.com/sports/hc-sp-uconn-sports-athletic-department-finances-revenue-expenses-20190117-2wdp5gimnvhlliwykl6npcmy7u-story.html
This article mentions that UCONN may be chopping some sports. https://www.apnews.com/5bf6e16950ec4de89117c206fff8786a
UCONN has to be having second thoughts about sticking multi million dollars into their football team to lose 5+ million dollars. Their attendance for basketball is down...noone cares about AAC basketball and far away programs. They are missing the additional attendance figures for their mens games (close, natural rivalries in a basketball driven conference) and the slice of the pie the big east gets from the NCAA tournament? (Off the top of my head, i believe they got over 50% of their teams in the last few years).
There's been talks that the big east may way to add a school. It'll be interesting to see what happens. More curious is to see what UCONN and the AAC does. Do they add a school or two and try to increase the media contract/exposure? Do they implode?
Detroit as potential private school counterweight to Murray State? Not sure how I feel about that. That would probably just upset the public schools.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-869082-page-6.html
If it was Detroit, I would hope that we require them to add Baseball.
Why would we? We didn't make Loyola? I bet Loyola is pushing for Detroit pretty hard since they're both Jesuit and they probably have strong cache after their Final 4 run.
Adding Detroit is a HORRIBLE idea.
Is that a joke? :o
Is it time to consider Lipscomb as the private school to balance Murray State's inclusion? If nothing else that could motivate Belmont to get serious as I'm sure the idea of getting passed up by Lipscomb wouldn't sit very well with them.
Why the rush to grab a no-name just to add Murray? I just don't see it. SLU or bust.
Lipscomb (36 NET) and Murray (49 NET) would be running away with the MVC this year.
Belmont would be too and NKU might be as well.
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 30, 2019, 09:25:39 PM
Why the rush to grab a no-name just to add Murray? I just don't see it. SLU or bust.
That Lipscomb "no-name" is 17-4 with an 8-0 conference record in the Atlantic Sun. They have lost to Belmont twice, Louisville and Clemson.
http://www.lipscombsports.com/mbasketball/schedule/
If my memory serves they had a top 100 RPI and beat Belmont twice last year. Two years doesn't make a trend but it's very promising.
Beyond Murray State (and assuming Belmont would never happen), the two schools that seem best to consider would be NKU and South Dakota State. Both seem to be showing consistency strength in their basketball programs and (to my knowledge) are sufficiently strong in other sports. NKU brings another larger market and SDSU has a strong fan base (being the only thing in town). Detroit? No way! Lipscomb? Let's see if they continue for a few more years.
SDSU is in a Belmont-like situation. Tournament in their backyard lots of schools close by strong position within the conference they're in and I don't see the MVC as a travel win for them. I doubt they would join for all sports.
I decided to take a further look at Lipscomb. While Valpo fans were lamenting a 1 point loss to Missouri State on Tuesday night Lipscomb went on the road against conference foe Liberty in Lynchburg, VA. It was a battle of undefeated teams in the Atlantic Sun. Not only did Lipscomb beat Liberty on the road but they beat them handily 79-59. Liberty is 18-5 and is now 7-1 in the league. That's quite a statement game by the Bison.
http://www.lipscombsports.com/mbasketball/news/2018-19/15680/bisons-alone-at-top-of-asun-after-hammering-liberty-79-59/
I don't know why but I feel very concerned about Loyola potentially leaving for the A10 or AAC. There's no sources suggesting this but I bet they're one more conference title\tournament run from making it happen. Both leagues would provide a boost in exposure and recruiting opportunities and most likely even to SOS\tournament opportunities. They could still schedule Illinois State SIU Valpo UIC Milwaukee and IUPUI if they have spots to fill on their schedule. Both conferences would involve a major travel increase but the A10 especially would be a phenomenal institutional fit for them. I know the A10 has said no midwestern adds and the AAC isn't keen on basketball only schools but I think both conferences would do it for the Chicago presence alone. Plus it benefits the A10 greatly. Not only do they gain a Chicago presence a resurgent program and a quality institution but they also weaken a rival league and shut down once and for all any chance of the MVC losing Dayton or SLU while simultaneously making the path forward for the MVC very difficult. Would Murray State still want to join? Belmont would certainly be out. Would any HL teams even entertain making the jump as the MVC multibid dream would be very tough to realize. I think this is a very valid concern especially as Loyola continues to experience success.
A10 already notified Dayton and SLU no midwest members are being added.
Loyola's board had a thread a couple weeks ago and no one was interested.
http://www.ramblermania.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2591
Sometimes you have to hit the brakes. There's a reason "there's no sources suggesting this".
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on February 03, 2019, 02:08:26 PM
I don't know why but I feel very concerned about Loyola potentially leaving for the A10 or AAC. There's no sources suggesting this but I bet they're one more conference title\tournament run from making it happen. Both leagues would provide a boost in exposure and recruiting opportunities and most likely even to SOS\tournament opportunities. They could still schedule Illinois State SIU Valpo UIC Milwaukee and IUPUI if they have spots to fill on their schedule. Both conferences would involve a major travel increase but the A10 especially would be a phenomenal institutional fit for them. I know the A10 has said no midwestern adds and the AAC isn't keen on basketball only schools but I think both conferences would do it for the Chicago presence alone. Plus it benefits the A10 greatly. Not only do they gain a Chicago presence a resurgent program and a quality institution but they also weaken a rival league and shut down once and for all any chance of the MVC losing Dayton or SLU while simultaneously making the path forward for the MVC very difficult. Would Murray State still want to join? Belmont would certainly be out. Would any HL teams even entertain making the jump as the MVC multibid dream would be very tough to realize. I think this is a very valid concern especially as Loyola continues to experience success.
Loyola isn't even close to the team they were last season. They might still be experiencing success in the MVC this year, but right now the MVC's conference rating on Kenpom is almost exactly the same as what the Horizon League was in 2016 (2019 MVC is -1.12, 2016 HL was -1.07, and both were ranked 16th).
They might make the tournament this year (even that's completely up in the air given how wide open the league is), but no one's going to overlook them this year, and it would be even more surprising if they were able to win a game or two given how much their offense and defense have fallen in efficiency since last season.
I'd also like to see how well they do after this year when they don't have Custer or Townes. Krutwig is a beast and will continue to be a centerpiece for them, but the guys coming up behind Custer and Townes have a lot of developing to do for them to remain at the top of the league, IMO. Maybe the A-10 might be interested, but short of them turning into a juggernaut in the MVC and building at-large resumes year after year (similar to what Wichita did), I would have a hard time believing that a league like the AAC would be interested in adding a basketball-only member, even if they are in Chicago.
Man every time I want to talk up NKU as a potential addition alongside Murray State they go and blow a chance to make a statement like they did tonight. Let's just do 11 and 20 with Murray State. There's no good reason not to.
I used to enjoy reading conference expansion. Now I just want our house fixed before thinking about the neighborhood.
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 16, 2019, 09:08:04 PM
I used to enjoy reading conference expansion. Now I just want our house fixed before thinking about the neighborhood.
Amen. I feel the same way.
Looks like all quiet on the expansion front.
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/1102624551408672770
Meanwhile on the Murray State board...
https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19101&sid=82fbb8df713a357f8d157efafdbf3d01
It is sad yet understandable why they have this thread. Thank goodness most of the fans are still on board with joining should an invitation come. I can only hope their decision makers still feel the same way.
The conference just had a bad year...
Murray State still wants in...
Belmont might miss the dance...
Lipscomb will miss the dance...
NKU clearly wants out...
So does Wright State...
Even SDSU just misstepped in a conference they own and future moves as soon as this year may bring instability to the WAC and Summit...
The time to act is now and for the good of the conference the MVC needs to act...
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 11, 2019, 05:34:04 PM
Meanwhile on the Murray State board...
https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19101&sid=82fbb8df713a357f8d157efafdbf3d01
It is sad yet understandable why they have this thread. Thank goodness most of the fans are still on board with joining should an invitation come. I can only hope their decision makers still feel the same way.
The conference just had a bad year...
Murray State still wants in...
Belmont might miss the dance...
Lipscomb will miss the dance...
NKU clearly wants out...
So does Wright State...
Even SDSU just misstepped in a conference they own and future moves as soon as this year may bring instability to the WAC and Summit...
The time to act is now and for the good of the conference the MVC needs to act...
The thing is, while the MVC's bottom is miles ahead of the bottom of the OVC, teams aren't missing out on at-large berths because of them beating up on the bottom of the league. They're missing out because the top of the league isn't good enough to generate those "Quad 1"/Top 50/(insert random metric)" wins. They aren't getting that in the OVC. Would they get it in the MVC? I'd say there's a better chance, but Loyola, despite running roughshod over a better version of the MVC last year and getting a win at Florida still would have likely missed the tournament.
Now if Murray State had been in the league, I think it might have put them on more solid footing, but it also would have likely meant that one of them wasn't going dancing too, much like the situation they have this year with them and Belmont. IMO, I agree that it's a no-brainer to add Murray State to strengthen the MVC, but I also don't think it's a move that's going to generate more bids. In a league like the Big Ten this year, Indiana can lose 12 out of 13 and still be in the mix (and in a pretty good spot actually) to beat out a team like Belmont or Lipscomb because they have so many high profile wins, and those teams, whether they're in the OVC or the MVC just aren't going to have those opportunities.
I agree with you. Just as a stand alone Valpo add would not make the MVC a multiple bid conference, a stand alone Murray add will not generate multiple bids either. That said, for arguments sake, I still wonder whether this answer can be found in Las Cruces instead of Nashville at least during the immediate interim.
SLU or bust. We are just nibbling around the edges with all the other candidates.
Are they on the Atlantic?.... or are in they in Missouri and in a valley?
They can be data-driven or they can be self-congratulatory.
MVC board starting to warm to and get really vocal about adding Murray State and NKU. It would be a solid move for the conference. 72 wins in 3 years 2 NCAA 1 NIT media presence in Cincinnati 12 tournament appearances between 1995-2012 in D2 with a great arena that would draw well in the MVC is nothing to look askance at.
I'm down for anything that hurts the HL and eventually costs LeCrone his job. And I hope Butler doesn't make the NCAAT.
Butler isn't going to make the tourney this year. Nku is interesting and trending upward. Have a nice arena and have the Cincy market. Obviously, they are displeased with the HL. Wonder where they end up.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 13, 2019, 10:43:02 AM
I'm down for anything that hurts the HL and eventually costs LeCrone his job. And I hope Butler doesn't make the NCAAT.
Why are you even hoping at this point? It's a lock.
Also, I think it's pretty unlikely the private institutions (including Valpo) in the MVC would approve taking 2 public universities, which would create an imbalance.
If I'm NKU I'm going to the Atlantic Sun.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 13, 2019, 01:18:31 PMIf I'm NKU I'm going to the Atlantic Sun.
Great plan. Stifle the growth of your program by increasing travel costs to go to a worse league. Liberty won't be there forever and Lipscomb will probably look for a better fit should a spot in the OVC open up.
QuoteAre they on the Atlantic?.... or are in they in Missouri and in a valley?
They can be data-driven or they can be self-congratulatory.
Or they can be in a multi-bid league consistently or one that is gonna struggle to send two.
(But seriously, they are in a league with five other Catholic institutions now, vs. joining a league with only one other. Don't undersell that -- it's probably a big reason they feel allegiance to the A-10 despite being out on an island geographically).
SLU has no interest in joining the MVC. They've been there and done that many moons ago. They still harbor hopes (unrealistic) of the Big East.
I don't get the disdain for Butler. They've built a national brand, and they've had a long period of sustained success. Butler's down year this year does nothing to raise Valpo's profile.
Don't know about other years, but this year RPI has Atlantic Sun ahead of the HL. I would assume that to be true for last year as well since the HL was trash. I know NKU did a study before they were granted D1 status and it reveiled the HL was better for travel. However, the winter months I would want to travel and play my games south as opposed to Green Bay, Milwaukee, Detroit and Cleveland.
It is on the MVC to recognize an external opportunity to enhance the league with 2 schools who'd accept in a millisecond (Murray, NKU).
Worst comes to worst, you end up where you before. Maybe it adds a second bid sometimes, maybe it doesn't. But it improves your chances to add units (which is what really counts). Especially this year, I'd trust Murray to win a game much more than Bradley.
Meanwhile on the HL board...
http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net/thread/1150/long-before-nku
Quote from: may know on March 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
It is on the MVC to recognize an external opportunity to enhance the league with 2 schools who'd accept in a millisecond (Murray, NKU).
Worst comes to worst, you end up where you before. Maybe it adds a second bid sometimes, maybe it doesn't. But it improves your chances to add units (which is what really counts). Especially this year, I'd trust Murray to win a game much more than Bradley.
In one projection: Bradley (MVC) #15, Murray (OVC) #12
Quote from: may know on March 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PMBut it improves your chances to add units (which is what really counts).
Fans against adding Murray, Belmont, NKU and others always site the assumption that we won't get a second bid so we will be just diluting the tournament dollars. may know hits on the key point that this is not just about bids, but about seeding and the potential for better seeding leading to more potential wins and more units. So while I would love for the MVC to get multiple bids, I think the current climate is such that mid major conferences should be looking to get more units by achieving better seeding for their one bid representatives. Adding a "Murray State" type program (or two) would help the conference continue to get multiple units on a yearly basis.
I hope that Bradley continues the MVC streak of winning first round games, but that might be a difficult chore given the seed they will most likely receive. Some of the fault for the low seed falls squarely on this year's poor conference performance. Maybe the reduced revenue will motivate the conference presidents to look at adding an eleventh team despite the scheduling issues.
Quote from: FWalum on March 17, 2019, 10:05:45 AMQuote from: may know on March 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PMBut it improves your chances to add units (which is what really counts).
Fans against adding Murray, Belmont, NKU and others always site the assumption that we won't get a second bid so we will be just diluting the tournament dollars. may know hits on the key point that this is not just about bids, but about seeding and the potential for better seeding leading to more potential wins and more units. So while I would love for the MVC to get multiple bids, I think the current climate is such that mid major conferences should be looking to get more units by achieving better seeding for their one bid representatives. Adding a "Murray State" type program (or two) would help the conference continue to get multiple units on a yearly basis. I hope that Bradley continues the MVC streak of winning first round games, but that might be a difficult chore given the seed they will most likely receive. Some of the fault for the low seed falls squarely on this year's poor conference performance. Maybe the reduced revenue will motivate the conference presidents to look at adding an eleventh team despite the scheduling issues.
Maybe missing the tournament will motivate Belmont to move. Then we can all be happy.
That or they can roll the dice on what looks to be a pretty safe upside gamble on NKU.
That said I have always been for Murray State and an 11\20 format.
Quote from: FWalum on March 17, 2019, 10:05:45 AM
Quote from: may know on March 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PMBut it improves your chances to add units (which is what really counts).
Fans against adding Murray, Belmont, NKU and others always site the assumption that we won't get a second bid so we will be just diluting the tournament dollars. may know hits on the key point that this is not just about bids, but about seeding and the potential for better seeding leading to more potential wins and more units. So while I would love for the MVC to get multiple bids, I think the current climate is such that mid major conferences should be looking to get more units by achieving better seeding for their one bid representatives. Adding a "Murray State" type program (or two) would help the conference continue to get multiple units on a yearly basis.
I hope that Bradley continues the MVC streak of winning first round games, but that might be a difficult chore given the seed they will most likely receive. Some of the fault for the low seed falls squarely on this year's poor conference performance. Maybe the reduced revenue will motivate the conference presidents to look at adding an eleventh team despite the scheduling issues.
Murray State is a dominant program in a weak league comparable to the Mid Con when Valpo was a member. How that translates to the MVC is anyone's guess. If they're even middle of the pack, they add absolutely no value. If they're good to very good, they become 1 more obstacle in Valpo's way to winning the conference tournament championship and getting back to the Big Dance. While I get that they might help the conference NET/RPI, it's far from a guarantee. Even if they do help it, what kind of a trade off is that for making it that much harder for Valpo to get not only where we want to go, but where we need to go. If we don't start creating some separation soon, we are going to settle in as just another run-of-the-mill MVC program.
There are times when people try to overthink, to their own detriment. That's what I'm sensing is going on here with some of these posts. It's like switching employers, and at the same time youre trying to earn everyone's respect and position yourself for advancement, you're lobbying senior leadership to bring in top notch talent to directly compete against because it'll make the company stronger. No one with any sense of self preservation would ever do that under those circumstances. Now, once you become a seasoned veteran and a consistent outstanding performer (think Wichita State after Creighton left), recommend away without the slightest concern for your own wellbeing.
Murray State is about to send its third player to the NBA in seven years it has multiple tourney wins and multiple top 25 finishes this decade. They've also weathered multiple coaching transitions they're not just a one family program. Besides that their fans travel and their administration cares about athletics. They would be fine in this league. I want to be part of a multibid league. I want Valpo to truly be ready for the tournament if they get there. I'm tired of one and dones and near misses. I'm tired of living off of one play that soon nobody on our roster will have even been alive to see. I want more and as strange as it sounds adding more good teams will help us get it.
Quote from: wh on March 17, 2019, 11:49:34 AMMurray State is a dominant program in a very weak league comparable to the Mid Con when Valpo was a member. How that translates to the MVC is anyone's guess. If they're even middle of the pack, they add absolutely no value. If they're good to very good, they become 1 more obstacle in Valpo's way to winning the conference tournament championship and getting back to the Big Dance. While I get that they might help the conference NET/RPI, it's far from a guarantee. Even if they do help it, what kind of a trade off is that for making it that much harder for Valpo to get not only where we want to go, but where we need to go. If we don't start creating some separation soon, we are going to settle in as just another run-of-the-mill MVC program.
You need to totally separate your MVC vs VU thinking. What is best for the Valley and for us may not always be in perfect alignment.
Personally, the more major obstacles we face the better I like it. If we can return to usually being a top 100 program I'll take my chances with the rest of it.
Quote from: wh on March 17, 2019, 11:49:34 AM
Quote from: FWalum on March 17, 2019, 10:05:45 AM
Quote from: may know on March 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PMBut it improves your chances to add units (which is what really counts).
Fans against adding Murray, Belmont, NKU and others always site the assumption that we won't get a second bid so we will be just diluting the tournament dollars. may know hits on the key point that this is not just about bids, but about seeding and the potential for better seeding leading to more potential wins and more units. So while I would love for the MVC to get multiple bids, I think the current climate is such that mid major conferences should be looking to get more units by achieving better seeding for their one bid representatives. Adding a "Murray State" type program (or two) would help the conference continue to get multiple units on a yearly basis.
I hope that Bradley continues the MVC streak of winning first round games, but that might be a difficult chore given the seed they will most likely receive. Some of the fault for the low seed falls squarely on this year's poor conference performance. Maybe the reduced revenue will motivate the conference presidents to look at adding an eleventh team despite the scheduling issues.
Murray State is a dominant program in a weak league comparable to the Mid Con when Valpo was a member. How that translates to the MVC is anyone's guess. If they're even middle of the pack, they add absolutely no value. If they're good to very good, they become 1 more obstacle in Valpo's way to winning the conference tournament championship and getting back to the Big Dance. While I get that they might help the conference NET/RPI, it's far from a guarantee. Even if they do help it, what kind of a trade off is that for making it that much harder for Valpo to get not only where we want to go, but where we need to go. If we don't start creating some separation soon, we are going to settle in as just another run-of-the-mill MVC program.
There are times when people try to overthink, to their own detriment. That's what I'm sensing is going on here with some of these posts. It's like switching employers, and at the same time youre trying to earn everyone's respect and position yourself for advancement, you're lobbying senior leadership to bring in top notch talent to directly compete against because it'll make the company stronger. No one with any sense of self preservation would ever do that under those circumstances. Now, once you become a seasoned veteran and a consistent outstanding performer (think Wichita State after Creighton left), recommend away without the slightest concern for your own wellbeing.
You were pro Valpo to MVC now you're against the MVC getting stronger. What's best for Valpo depends largely on how committed they are to winning and doing what's necessary to win. If they're committed this is a great move if not it's not as great. That has nothing to do with Murray State. The more tough tests and the tougher the schedule the better. Iron sharpens iron unless of course we're not really (and never were) iron.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 12:34:24 PM
Quote from: wh on March 17, 2019, 11:49:34 AM
Quote from: FWalum on March 17, 2019, 10:05:45 AM
Quote from: may know on March 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PMBut it improves your chances to add units (which is what really counts).
Fans against adding Murray, Belmont, NKU and others always site the assumption that we won't get a second bid so we will be just diluting the tournament dollars. may know hits on the key point that this is not just about bids, but about seeding and the potential for better seeding leading to more potential wins and more units. So while I would love for the MVC to get multiple bids, I think the current climate is such that mid major conferences should be looking to get more units by achieving better seeding for their one bid representatives. Adding a "Murray State" type program (or two) would help the conference continue to get multiple units on a yearly basis.
I hope that Bradley continues the MVC streak of winning first round games, but that might be a difficult chore given the seed they will most likely receive. Some of the fault for the low seed falls squarely on this year's poor conference performance. Maybe the reduced revenue will motivate the conference presidents to look at adding an eleventh team despite the scheduling issues.
Murray State is a dominant program in a weak league comparable to the Mid Con when Valpo was a member. How that translates to the MVC is anyone's guess. If they're even middle of the pack, they add absolutely no value. If they're good to very good, they become 1 more obstacle in Valpo's way to winning the conference tournament championship and getting back to the Big Dance. While I get that they might help the conference NET/RPI, it's far from a guarantee. Even if they do help it, what kind of a trade off is that for making it that much harder for Valpo to get not only where we want to go, but where we need to go. If we don't start creating some separation soon, we are going to settle in as just another run-of-the-mill MVC program.
There are times when people try to overthink, to their own detriment. That's what I'm sensing is going on here with some of these posts. It's like switching employers, and at the same time youre trying to earn everyone's respect and position yourself for advancement, you're lobbying senior leadership to bring in top notch talent to directly compete against because it'll make the company stronger. No one with any sense of self preservation would ever do that under those circumstances. Now, once you become a seasoned veteran and a consistent outstanding performer (think Wichita State after Creighton left), recommend away without the slightest concern for your own wellbeing.
You were pro Valpo to MVC now you're against the MVC getting stronger. What's best for Valpo depends largely on how committed they are to winning and doing what's necessary to win. If they're committed this is a great move if not it's not as great. That has nothing to do with Murray State. The more tough tests and the tougher the schedule the better. Iron sharpens iron unless of course we're not really (and never were) iron.
VUgrad1314, is making the NCAA tournament your top goal each year?
No, winning NCAA Tournament games is. I'm not satisfied with just making it I'm not just happy to be there. I want to stay. I want to advance. I don't want another 15-16 situation. I don't want the season to come down to 3 games in March against the conference. That's why I keep pushing for and demanding more. I wish more people would join me.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
No, winning NCAA Tournament games is. I'm not satisfied with just making it I'm not just happy to be there. I want to stay. I want to advance. I don't want another 15-16 situation. I don't want the season to come down to 3 games in March against the conference. That's why I keep pushing for and demanding more. I wish more people would join me.
I can't disagree there, we tasted March Madness and found it wanting in the 18-years I've followed VU.
I guess the question begs, in what scenario can we best recruit players that will win opening round games or more:
A). Go to NCAAT every 4 years as 15 seed and lose (we went '02, '04, '13 and '15).
B). Go to NCAAT every 6 years as 12/13 seed and win first round game each of those times
Clearly these are just concepts, but the real issue we have is recruiting the talent first and foremost. I wonder if a dense league with two additions and a resulting NCAAT every 6-years is enough to maintain recruiting success.
There are no definitive answers here, just conjecture but I wonder if our current climate can sustain a tournament drout of 9-years like we had from Mid-Con to HL?
Let's not kid ourselves, we aren't the same young promising (nationally recognized) coached team (Bryce) that made the HL transition. If we argue for two top tier additions into an already sizable headwind could that not be the additional headwind that puts us into a tailspin?
Two losing seasons b2b does not equate to a tailspin. But man it'd be tough seeing Murray and Belmont (other others better than us) enter the MVC at a time where we are reeling....no?
Conference success and prestige has a lot to do with recruiting. The stronger the MVC gets the better for everyone. The fact is we have 2 NCAA Appearances since 2004 and we generated nothing for the HL. And even if we won we were a 13 14 seed. In a stronger MVC we can be 10\11 we can dream of single digits. we can find ourselves in a strong position to generate units and we have other programs who can do that when we struggle. Properly invested we can use these units to help feed recruiting success and when it's our turn we get a bunch of free publicity. Given the choice (as much as I hate losing I'd rather be where we are than back atop the HL and it's not close. We can succeed here it's just harder and requires more effort and greater commitment.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 17, 2019, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
No, winning NCAA Tournament games is. I'm not satisfied with just making it I'm not just happy to be there. I want to stay. I want to advance. I don't want another 15-16 situation. I don't want the season to come down to 3 games in March against the conference. That's why I keep pushing for and demanding more. I wish more people would join me.
I can't disagree there, we tasted March Madness and found it wanting in the 18-years I've followed VU.
I guess the question begs, in what scenario can we best recruit players that will win opening round games or more:
A). Go to NCAAT every 4 years as 15 seed and lose (we went '02, '04, '13 and '15).
B). Go to NCAAT every 6 years as 12/13 seed and win first round game each of those times
Clearly these are just concepts, but the real issue we have is recruiting the talent first and foremost. I wonder if a dense league with two additions and a resulting NCAAT every 6-years is enough to maintain recruiting success.
There are no definitive answers here, just conjecture but I wonder if our current climate can sustain a tournament drout of 9-years like we had from Mid-Con to HL?
Let's not kid ourselves, we aren't the same young promising (nationally recognized) coached team (Bryce) that made the HL transition. If we argue for two top tier additions into an already sizable headwind could that not be the additional headwind that puts us into a tailspin?
Two losing seasons b2b does not equate to a tailspin. But man it'd be tough seeing Murray and Belmont (other others better than us) enter the MVC at a time where we are reeling....no?
I think I was too generous in Scenario B, it should read
B). Go to NCAAT every 6 years as 12/13 seed and win first round game 1/3 of the time
That's probably more realistic.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 17, 2019, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
No, winning NCAA Tournament games is. I'm not satisfied with just making it I'm not just happy to be there. I want to stay. I want to advance. I don't want another 15-16 situation. I don't want the season to come down to 3 games in March against the conference. That's why I keep pushing for and demanding more. I wish more people would join me.
I can't disagree there, we tasted March Madness and found it wanting in the 18-years I've followed VU.
I guess the question begs, in what scenario can we best recruit players that will win opening round games or more:
A). Go to NCAAT every 4 years as 15 seed and lose (we went '02, '04, '13 and '15).
B). Go to NCAAT every 6 years as 12/13 seed and win first round game each of those times
Clearly these are just concepts, but the real issue we have is recruiting the talent first and foremost. I wonder if a dense league with two additions and a resulting NCAAT every 6-years is enough to maintain recruiting success.
There are no definitive answers here, just conjecture but I wonder if our current climate can sustain a tournament drout of 9-years like we had from Mid-Con to HL?
Let's not kid ourselves, we aren't the same young promising (nationally recognized) coached team (Bryce) that made the HL transition. If we argue for two top tier additions into an already sizable headwind could that not be the additional headwind that puts us into a tailspin?
Two losing seasons b2b does not equate to a tailspin. But man it'd be tough seeing Murray and Belmont (other others better than us) enter the MVC at a time where we are reeling....no?
Exactly. No one's arguing that adding programs might benefit the league (or not). I'm sure the staff at MVC headquarters discusses it regularly, as part of larger "let's be all we can be" planning discussions. After all, that's what people at the corporate level do; they think corporate thoughts. But that's not us. We're the program the conference added with great fanfare only 2 years ago that quickly became the albatross that hangs firmly around the conference's neck. There probably isn't a program in the league that has had a bigger negative impact on the conference's ranking, standing and reputation. The conference was ranked 8th last year DESPITE our pathetic contribution. Conference ranking fell dramatically this year, in part because we failed to pick ourselves up off the mat and help offset the decline experienced by certain of the other programs. And no, we're not like Loyola in their first 2 years. No one had any preconceived notions that Loyola was going to do anything to benefit the league anytime soon. They picked them as part of a larger long term strategy, knowing they were going to struggle out of the gate. They picked us because we had a longstanding national reputation as a top Mid Major program. So far, we have been a complete flop.
I wish people on this board would show a little humility and stop trying to tell everyone who will listen what the MVC needs to do to get better. It's like Derrik Smits telling everyone what changes need to be made on defense. If I were from another board, I would be over here in a heartbeat to put us in our place. Can anyone imagine what would have happened had we done the same thing in our first 2 years in the HL? Butler, WSU and Milwaukee fans would been down our throats so fast it would make your head spin. But that would never have happened there. We were already defending ourselves against claims that we were the Horizon League's new Youngstown State. Any advice we would have offered up about what the league needed to do would have been countered with "the biggest improvement the league could make is get rid of you." Obviously, MVC fans are much more tolerant.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 02:43:48 PM
Conference success and prestige has a lot to do with recruiting. The stronger the MVC gets the better for everyone. The fact is we have 2 NCAA Appearances since 2004 and we generated nothing for the HL. And even if we won we were a 13 14 seed. In a stronger MVC we can be 10\11 we can dream of single digits. we can find ourselves in a strong position to generate units and we have other programs who can do that when we struggle. Properly invested we can use these units to help feed recruiting success and when it's our turn we get a bunch of free publicity. Given the choice (as much as I hate losing I'd rather be where we are than back atop the HL and it's not close. We can succeed here it's just harder and requires more effort and greater commitment.
You're correct that we likely got a bump in recruiting moving to MVC, cannot debate that.
Quote from: wh on March 17, 2019, 03:42:11 PMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 17, 2019, 01:55:04 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 01:04:05 PMNo, winning NCAA Tournament games is. I'm not satisfied with just making it I'm not just happy to be there. I want to stay. I want to advance. I don't want another 15-16 situation. I don't want the season to come down to 3 games in March against the conference. That's why I keep pushing for and demanding more. I wish more people would join me.
I can't disagree there, we tasted March Madness and found it wanting in the 18-years I've followed VU. I guess the question begs, in what scenario can we best recruit players that will win opening round games or more: A). Go to NCAAT every 4 years as 15 seed and lose (we went '02, '04, '13 and '15). B). Go to NCAAT every 6 years as 12/13 seed and win first round game each of those times Clearly these are just concepts, but the real issue we have is recruiting the talent first and foremost. I wonder if a dense league with two additions and a resulting NCAAT every 6-years is enough to maintain recruiting success. There are no definitive answers here, just conjecture but I wonder if our current climate can sustain a tournament drout of 9-years like we had from Mid-Con to HL? Let's not kid ourselves, we aren't the same young promising (nationally recognized) coached team (Bryce) that made the HL transition. If we argue for two top tier additions into an already sizable headwind could that not be the additional headwind that puts us into a tailspin? Two losing seasons b2b does not equate to a tailspin. But man it'd be tough seeing Murray and Belmont (other others better than us) enter the MVC at a time where we are reeling....no?
Exactly. No one's arguing that adding programs might benefit the league (or not). I'm sure the staff at MVC headquarters discusses it regularly, as part of larger "let's be all we can be" planning discussions. After all, that's what people at the corporate level do; they think corporate thoughts. But that's not us. We're the program the conference added with great fanfare only 2 years ago that quickly became the albatross that hangs firmly around the conference's neck. There probably isn't a program in the league that has had a bigger negative impact on the conference's ranking, standing and reputation. The conference was ranked 8th last year DESPITE our pathetic contribution. Conference ranking fell dramatically this year, in part because we failed to pick ourselves up off the mat and help offset the decline experienced by certain of the other programs. And no, we're not like Loyola in their first 2 years. No one had any preconceived notions that Loyola was going to do anything to benefit the league anytime soon. They picked them as part of a larger long term strategy, knowing they were going to struggle out of the gate. They picked us because we had a longstanding national reputation as a top Mid Major program. So far, we have been a complete flop. I wish people on this board would show a little humility and stop trying to tell everyone who will listen what the MVC needs to do to get better. It's like Derrik Smits telling everyone what changes need to be made on defense. If I were from another board, I would be over here in a heartbeat to put us in our place. Can anyone imagine what would have happened had we done the same thing in our first 2 years in the HL? Butler, WSU and Milwaukee fans would been down our throats so fast it would make your head spin. But that would never have happened there. We were already defending ourselves against claims that we were the Horizon League's new Youngstown State. Any advice we would have offered up about what the league needed to do would have been countered with "the biggest improvement the league could make is get rid of you." Obviously, MVC fans are much more tolerant.
So because we have sucked (even though we were a competent crunchtime gameplan away from at least third place) the MVC should refrain from adding more committed dare I say better programs with better facilities and higher administrative commitment to make itself stronger? That doesn't seem like good stewardship to me and it shouldn't matter who I'm a fan of or how we've done for me to advocate for it and point it out. I'm a fan. I want what's best for the conference. It's not my fault our facilities suck and nobody with any power to do anything cares it's not my fault we hired a coach who can only coach one side of the ball and it's not my fault this team folded like cheap furniture in the last four minutes of games. If MH or MLB was popping off like this I'd agree. They have the power to affect change. Not me. Not any of us. We can only hope we are heard someday.
So with the OVC now officially a multi bid league can we put the MSU- Belmont talk to bed now?
Quote from: wh on March 17, 2019, 03:42:11 PMI wish people on this board would show a little humility and stop trying to tell everyone who will listen what the MVC needs to do to get better. It's like Derrik Smits telling everyone what changes need to be made on defense. If I were from another board, I would be over here in a heartbeat to put us in our place. Can anyone imagine what would have happened had we done the same thing in our first 2 years in the HL? Butler, WSU and Milwaukee fans would been down our throats so fast it would make your head spin. But that would never have happened there. We were already defending ourselves against claims that we were the Horizon League's new Youngstown State. Any advice we would have offered up about what the league needed to do would have been countered with "the biggest improvement the league could make is get rid of you." Obviously, MVC fans are much more tolerant.
If conventional thinking is backward thinking it should always be challenged. In one decade we rode the HL from a position of relevance to obscurity. We should understand the downward spiral of mid major basketball better than anybody in the Valley.
We joined the MVC with an equal voice and 10% of the vote. It is our obligation to point out potential opportunities to those not yet inclined to recognizing their need. I will agree that we should be polite but humility never was my strong suit.
It's over...
Murray's not coming...
Belmont's not coming...
We're never going to commit to athletics...
The MVC has less bids than the OVC AND a lower seed than the HL and I hate everything....
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 05:46:49 PM
It's over...
Murray's not coming...
Belmont's not coming...
We're never going to commit to athletics...
The MVC has less bids than the OVC AND a lower seed than the HL and I hate everything....
Yeah, clearly the OVC and Horizon are better conferences?
Quote from: a3uge on March 17, 2019, 05:48:41 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 05:46:49 PMIt's over... Murray's not coming... Belmont's not coming... We're never going to commit to athletics... The MVC has less bids than the OVC AND a lower seed than the HL and I hate everything....
Yeah, clearly the OVC and Horizon are better conferences?
Yeah all that depth has done what exactly for this conference? And don't mention Loyola's run that can't be counted on...
Quote from: wh on March 17, 2019, 03:42:11 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 17, 2019, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
No, winning NCAA Tournament games is. I'm not satisfied with just making it I'm not just happy to be there. I want to stay. I want to advance. I don't want another 15-16 situation. I don't want the season to come down to 3 games in March against the conference. That's why I keep pushing for and demanding more. I wish more people would join me.
I can't disagree there, we tasted March Madness and found it wanting in the 18-years I've followed VU.
I guess the question begs, in what scenario can we best recruit players that will win opening round games or more:
A). Go to NCAAT every 4 years as 15 seed and lose (we went '02, '04, '13 and '15).
B). Go to NCAAT every 6 years as 12/13 seed and win first round game each of those times
Clearly these are just concepts, but the real issue we have is recruiting the talent first and foremost. I wonder if a dense league with two additions and a resulting NCAAT every 6-years is enough to maintain recruiting success.
There are no definitive answers here, just conjecture but I wonder if our current climate can sustain a tournament drout of 9-years like we had from Mid-Con to HL?
Let's not kid ourselves, we aren't the same young promising (nationally recognized) coached team (Bryce) that made the HL transition. If we argue for two top tier additions into an already sizable headwind could that not be the additional headwind that puts us into a tailspin?
Two losing seasons b2b does not equate to a tailspin. But man it'd be tough seeing Murray and Belmont (other others better than us) enter the MVC at a time where we are reeling....no?
The conference was ranked 8th last year DESPITE our pathetic contribution.
You realize out of conference record is the only contributor to conference strength. We finished 7-4 OOC last season, which was a better contribution than 5 teams. Get mad at Indiana State who finished 3-7 out of conference. Even this year at 5-6 wasn't the worst. UNI finished 3-8 OOC. 12-10 in the past two years isn't killing this conference. Loyola was 12-9 in their first two years and took 5 years to finish above .500 in conference.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 06:10:21 PM
Quote from: a3uge on March 17, 2019, 05:48:41 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 05:46:49 PMIt's over... Murray's not coming... Belmont's not coming... We're never going to commit to athletics... The MVC has less bids than the OVC AND a lower seed than the HL and I hate everything....
Yeah, clearly the OVC and Horizon are better conferences?
Yeah all that depth has done what exactly for this conference? And don't mention Loyola's run that can't be counted on...
Are you saying the 4th place Horizon or OVC teams would also get 14 seeds?
What are you talking about? Who cares?
Belmont is very lucky to get in, I don't think they would almost any other year.
Ja Morant is gone next year for Murray, and the rest of the conference is steaming garbage.
I'd honestly be surprised if OVC gets multiple bids ever again.
The problem is that the very fact that it happened is enough for a university president to say with the full backing and support of everyone we don't need the MVC. This is a disaster.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 05:01:14 PM
Quote from: wh on March 17, 2019, 03:42:11 PMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 17, 2019, 01:55:04 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 01:04:05 PMNo, winning NCAA Tournament games is. I'm not satisfied with just making it I'm not just happy to be there. I want to stay. I want to advance. I don't want another 15-16 situation. I don't want the season to come down to 3 games in March against the conference. That's why I keep pushing for and demanding more. I wish more people would join me.
I can't disagree there, we tasted March Madness and found it wanting in the 18-years I've followed VU. I guess the question begs, in what scenario can we best recruit players that will win opening round games or more: A). Go to NCAAT every 4 years as 15 seed and lose (we went '02, '04, '13 and '15). B). Go to NCAAT every 6 years as 12/13 seed and win first round game each of those times Clearly these are just concepts, but the real issue we have is recruiting the talent first and foremost. I wonder if a dense league with two additions and a resulting NCAAT every 6-years is enough to maintain recruiting success. There are no definitive answers here, just conjecture but I wonder if our current climate can sustain a tournament drout of 9-years like we had from Mid-Con to HL? Let's not kid ourselves, we aren't the same young promising (nationally recognized) coached team (Bryce) that made the HL transition. If we argue for two top tier additions into an already sizable headwind could that not be the additional headwind that puts us into a tailspin? Two losing seasons b2b does not equate to a tailspin. But man it'd be tough seeing Murray and Belmont (other others better than us) enter the MVC at a time where we are reeling....no?
Exactly. No one's arguing that adding programs might benefit the league (or not). I'm sure the staff at MVC headquarters discusses it regularly, as part of larger "let's be all we can be" planning discussions. After all, that's what people at the corporate level do; they think corporate thoughts. But that's not us. We're the program the conference added with great fanfare only 2 years ago that quickly became the albatross that hangs firmly around the conference's neck. There probably isn't a program in the league that has had a bigger negative impact on the conference's ranking, standing and reputation. The conference was ranked 8th last year DESPITE our pathetic contribution. Conference ranking fell dramatically this year, in part because we failed to pick ourselves up off the mat and help offset the decline experienced by certain of the other programs. And no, we're not like Loyola in their first 2 years. No one had any preconceived notions that Loyola was going to do anything to benefit the league anytime soon. They picked them as part of a larger long term strategy, knowing they were going to struggle out of the gate. They picked us because we had a longstanding national reputation as a top Mid Major program. So far, we have been a complete flop. I wish people on this board would show a little humility and stop trying to tell everyone who will listen what the MVC needs to do to get better. It's like Derrik Smits telling everyone what changes need to be made on defense. If I were from another board, I would be over here in a heartbeat to put us in our place. Can anyone imagine what would have happened had we done the same thing in our first 2 years in the HL? Butler, WSU and Milwaukee fans would been down our throats so fast it would make your head spin. But that would never have happened there. We were already defending ourselves against claims that we were the Horizon League's new Youngstown State. Any advice we would have offered up about what the league needed to do would have been countered with "the biggest improvement the league could make is get rid of you." Obviously, MVC fans are much more tolerant.
So because we have sucked (even though we were a competent crunchtime gameplan away from at least third place) the MVC should refrain from adding more committed dare I say better programs with better facilities and higher administrative commitment to make itself stronger? That doesn't seem like good stewardship to me and it shouldn't matter who I'm a fan of or how we've done for me to advocate for it and point it out. I'm a fan. I want what's best for the conference. It's not my fault our facilities suck and nobody with any power to do anything cares it's not my fault we hired a coach who can only coach one side of the ball and it's not my fault this team folded like cheap furniture in the last four minutes of games. If MH or MLB was popping off like this I'd agree. They have the power to affect change. Not me. Not any of us. We can only hope we are heard someday.
Curious, what was your major in college?
Chinese and Japanese Studies I stayed to get a masters in Chinese Studies which took an extra year hence the two numbers in my Username. Why do you ask?
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 07:36:22 PM
Chinese and Japanese Studies I stayed to get a masters in Chinese Studies which took an extra year hence the two numbers in my Username. Why do you ask?
I'd have pegged you for an English Major.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 17, 2019, 08:57:05 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 07:36:22 PMChinese and Japanese Studies I stayed to get a masters in Chinese Studies which took an extra year hence the two numbers in my Username. Why do you ask?
I'd have pegged you for an English Major.
I'll interpret that remark as complementary... Please tell me if I'm wrong. My major was extremely language intensive though and my understanding of English has grown\continues to grow as I've studied\continue to study languages. I thought maybe you had me pegged as a deep cover Murray State plant. That is far too epic a troll job for me to undertake. Nope what you see is what you get a stressed out bummed out lifelong Valpo\ old school HL\MVC\mid major fan letting off steam.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 05:46:49 PM
It's over...
Murray's not coming...
Belmont's not coming...
We're never going to commit to athletics...
The MVC has less bids than the OVC AND a lower seed than the HL and I hate everything....
QuoteI'd have pegged you for an English Major.
An English major wouldn't have written "less."
Your friendly grammar Nazi.
Quote from: a3uge on March 17, 2019, 05:48:41 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 05:46:49 PM
It's over...
Murray's not coming...
Belmont's not coming...
We're never going to commit to athletics...
The MVC has less bids than the OVC AND a lower seed than the HL and I hate everything....
Yeah, clearly the OVC and Horizon are better conferences?
Not yet but it is moving in those directions.
Quote from: Just Sayin on March 17, 2019, 09:42:41 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 17, 2019, 05:46:49 PM
It's over...
Murray's not coming...
Belmont's not coming...
We're never going to commit to athletics...
The MVC has less bids than the OVC AND a lower seed than the HL and I hate everything....
QuoteI'd have pegged you for an English Major.
An English major wouldn't have written "less."
Your friendly grammar Nazi.
Again, not our jobs. A friendly reminder that there are moderators who have the power to permanently kick all of us non-moderators off the message board. No one else but the moderators have that power.
:crazy:
And NKU has lost my support as MVC #12...
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/behind-closed-doors-what-really-is-going-on-with-the-womens-basketball-team-at-northern-kentucky-university
Say what you will of the shortcomings of this athletic department at least we aren't run by scoundrels like this.
Wardle's soulmate.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 29, 2019, 04:13:05 PMAnd NKU has lost my support as MVC #12... https://www.theodysseyonline.com/behind-closed-doors-what-really-is-going-on-with-the-womens-basketball-team-at-northern-kentucky-university Say what you will of the shortcomings of this athletic department at least we aren't run by scoundrels like this.
Couple of other articles with some further details.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/local/northern-ky/2019/03/26/nku-womens-basketball-coach-camryn-whitaker-bullying-abuse-accusation/3274967002/
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2019/03/26/northern-kentucky-camryn-whitaker-emotional-abuse-allegations
I think what disgusts and disturbs me the most about this whole situation is that their AD cared more about the location of the HL tournament than he did about the well being of his own athletes. That is reprehensible and that department should not be rewarded with a step up in conference prestige or with the privilege of hosting the conference tournament under any circumstances. Shame on NKU
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 29, 2019, 05:00:29 PMWardle's soulmate.
Speaking of Wardle he just added an impact transfer today from LSU.
It will make me physically ill losing to that guy for the next 3-5 years.
Hopefully it won't happen that way but our two programs appear to be going in opposite directions. Bradley is going to be really good next year. Hopefully we can get some good recruiting news soon to get the optimism flowing again.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 29, 2019, 11:10:53 PM
Hopefully it won't happen that way but our two programs appear to be going in opposite directions. Bradley is going to be really good next year. Hopefully we can get some good recruiting news soon to get the optimism flowing again.
I really wasn't sure if you were ever going to have any hope in the Valpo MBB program again. Good to see you turning the corner finally in your outlook.
I said in another thread that I was going to try to be more positive and make the best of the situation as it is and will be for next year even if I disagree and don't like it and I am trying to keep my word. I try to post accurately honestly and to be consistent/keep my word when I give it so I'm doing my best. I love this school this conference and this sport too much to ever truly leave for good anyway and what's the point of being a fan if you have literally nothing to hope for? The upgrades we seek will come someday. They have to. And we've won before despite these shortcomings. It can happen again even if it's harder here in the MVC. It's not like we're sentenced to a lifetime of Lottich either. There's too much pride in this program and its performance for that. I have a tough time seeing him survive another subpar season and if he does I'm sure I won't be the only one unhappy. Right now he's our coach so let's get behind him and hope that he truly is the man who can take us to the top of the MVC. Go Valpo!
Rick Byrd retiring from Belmont He was a main voice of opposition to the move to the MVC It could be game on and if so this is tremendous news for the MVC
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 01, 2019, 02:29:33 PM
Rick Byrd retiring from Belmont He was a main voice of opposition to the move to the MVC It could be game on and if so this is tremendous news for the MVC
He was also basically the entire reason that Belmont was as good as it was every year. Unless they make a dynamite hire (and it should be a desirable mid-major job), will it still be a school that the MVC will still desire in a few years?
1. If they don't already have somebody in mind or a quality potential hire on staff they could probably poach the coach at Lipscomb away As I recall he's a Belmont grad
2. Who cares if this is what it takes to get Murray State into the MVC then so be it At least we've seen what Belmont can be and know that they have the potential to be a great addition
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 01, 2019, 03:00:29 PM
1. If they don't already have somebody in mind or a quality potential hire on staff they could probably poach the coach at Lipscomb away As I recall he's a Belmont grad
2. Who cares if this is what it takes to get Murray State into the MVC then so be it At least we've seen what Belmont can be and know that they have the potential to be a great addition
Belmont has a guy already living in its neighborhood who could coach and might not want to move his family named Bryce...or would that count as an April Fool prank?
What a kick in the groin that would be. Belmont joins the MVC and tabs Bryce as its coach. Talk about the ultimate double edged sword.
Of course, another twist would be if Belmont hired Lipscomb's coach Casey Alexander, a Belmont product, and Lipscomb hires Drew, since they are also a Christian school in Nashville. With Belmont or Lipscomb Bryce and his coaches don't need to move their families.
And honestly neither one would be a bad landing spot. Lipscomb would probably get a ticket into the OVC if any movement occurs and both schools have nice facilities.
I'd take Lipscomb with Murray. Valpo has been playing Lipscomb lately with both the softball and baseball teams coming to Nashville.
With PFW joining the Horizon, I again beat the Murray to MVC drum and go in a bit on what I perceive as laziness on the part of the university presidents of the member institutions
If this is a unilateral expansion move on the part of the Horizon League and not a response to a loss of a member then this ought to be upsetting for every MVC fan. The Horizon League is a definite one bid league and they are expanding to include a school that doesn't really help them that much unless they want more conference games. They're not worried about their tournament share or any of this other BS that is holding the MVC back. Yet we refuse to add a school in Murray State that could meaningfully help us and actually give us a legitimate shot at multibid status.
What is the reasoning that doesn't scream that the MVC university presidents don't care enough about the health and viability of the league as a serious national player in its flagship sport? Why can the Horizon League add Purdue Fort Wayne as a definite one bid league with the Mastadons not being a program that can help them elevate to possible at large status while the MVC can look at a program like Murray State that can elevate the MVC to potential multibid status and say "Nah we're good." Are Murray State's academics seriously that bad? Bear in mind that unless there is another addition to the Horizon League (which is possible but I haven't seen any indication of that) they have the SAME scheduling issues for other sports but went ahead with it anyway. Are MVC schools that strapped for cash? It's not like Murray State isn't in the footprint either. As I recall it's within 5 hours of virtually every MVC member just like PFW is in relation to the Horizon League. There is literally no sound argument that can be made for why the Racers are not in as an 11th team while we wait on a twelfth when the freaking Horizon just did it. Are we less responsive to the athletic needs of this conference than the Horizon League? Are we less proactive? The only thing this does for the MVC is elevate it and make it better. Add a home and home with Murray State to everyone's schedule and SOS goes up and the need for non D1s becomes non existent. The MVC hates non D1s It also hates buy games. Name me a better way to get two games than a home and home with Murray State that doesn't involve a buy game and one of the games must be a home game for your team? If you want to talk about travel, the opponent must also be close to equidistant from your school as Murray State is. I'll wait while you come up with your answers. unfortunately people whose opinions matter on these things don't have the stomach or the heart to do what needs to be done. That said I'd rather be bought by an A10 team than schedule a non D1 but that's just me.What do I know? I have this stupid idea that schools in upper level mid major conferences should fight all they can to garner at large bids so I want to see the strongest possible schedule that has a reasonable chance to be successful but apparently that's just silly talk and I should know my place.
I am in favor of adding Murray State and agree with much of your reasoning. However, here are reasons why the MVC might want to not pursue adding Murray State:
1. Travel. 5 hours from every MVC team? It is a 9 hour drive from Drake and Northern Iowa. Heck, it is 6 1/2 hours from Valpo. Murray is remote. If you consider flying commercial, you have to fly to Nashville and drive two hours or fly through Chicago to Paducah and then drive 45 minutes. Yes, it is two hours from SIU - but two hours in the wrong direction. No good options. Remember, ADs and University Presidents are thinking about all sports - not just basketball.
2. Financial stability (for universities in the state of Kentucky). The state has been cutting the spending on state universities and Murray is never going to be ahead of Louisville or UK in getting attention. Murray has been cutting their budget recently and has had shortfalls to overcome.
I never heard of an academic concern with Murray and I do not think such a concern would be justified. It is probably on par with SIU, Northern Iowa and Illinois State - and there is nothing really wrong with that.
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 06, 2019, 12:46:47 PM5 hours from every MVC team?
2 hour drive from Evansville.
There is a regional airport in Paducah.
http://barkleyregional.com/PAHmap
This may be a dumb question, but is there any evidence that Murray State really wants to join the MVC?
It is fine that fans think it is a better conference, yet is it obvious that this is a better spot for Murray State? Keep in mind that the previous discussions that for the current MVC members, adding Murray State would require one more longish road trip (to Murray State) per year. However, Murray State is close to the center of the OVC, so nearly all of their road trips would be longer and more expensive.
We do know that their previous AD was adamantly in favor of this move (basically the anti-Rick Byrd) Since they haven't had the opportunity (that we know of) to express whether they are willing to go we don't know if that's still the case but the fan base is certainly on board and I would have to guess that the administration would be as well. Bringing opponents of the caliber the MVC could provide would almost certainly boost attendance to all sports.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on August 06, 2019, 03:39:43 PM
We do know that their previous AD was adamantly in favor of this move (basically the anti-Rick Byrd) Since they haven't had the opportunity (that we know of) to express whether they are willing to go we don't know if that's still the case but the fan base is certainly on board and I would have to guess that the administration would be as well. Bringing opponents of the caliber the MVC could provide would almost certainly boost attendance to all sports.
Would it provide an attendance boost? In theory, it sounds like a no brainer, but would Murray State fans turn out more for a game against Indiana State than Morehead State? Loyola I'm sure they would turn out for, but they sold out games this year against Belmont and Austin Peay. They had basically the same amount of fans for a home game against Evansville as Morehead State.
We can blame part of the attendance drop for the MVC move for Valpo on the team's performance, but even Loyola, who went into the MVC with Wichita State in it saw a drop in attendance from the Horizon League really until the 2017-18 season, and they won 6 combined conference games their last 2 years in the Horizon.
I agree with your greater point that having Murray State in the MVC would benefit the league, but I'm not sure attendance would change much for the Racers or the rest of the league with their addition.
This is a good discussion. It's interesting VUGRAD1314 made the same post here and on MVCFans, and this site produced quality debate while the MVC site produced an angry MoSt fan insulting VUGRAD1314 for sharing his opinion.
Rumor has it that New Mexico State and Grand Canyon University are considering working together to try to get both schools into a better more stable conference. Should the MVC be interested in this package?
Pros:
Adds one solid program and another program with high potential
Adds one solid academic institution and another institution in a major market
Could really aid the MVC's multibid quest
Cons:
Huge travel burden
GCU's image and lack of academic prestige is a huge concern
For all their theoretical promise GCU really hasn't been that good
Unstable (both would leave us for comparable more suitable regional homes)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/2pU8T0OTNkmre/giphy.gif)
The MVC has 10 solid members in a tight geographic footprint ... why would they seek to add two marginal programs half a continent away? ???
In light of all the crying about mid-major scheduling difficulties, I am still scratching my head over why the MVC doesn't suck it up, put the logistics excuses to pasture, and go to 11 teams (hello Murray State) and a 20 game conference schedule.
Has there ever been an article claiming that Murray State wants to join?
In the OVC they have a much better chance of going to the NCAA.
They have been in the OVC since it formed in 1948.
Would the MVFC take the football team?
They would be nice to have but to me it doesn't make sense for them.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 06, 2019, 09:01:24 AM
Rumor has it that New Mexico State and Grand Canyon University are considering working together to try to get both schools into a better more stable conference. Should the MVC be interested in this package?
Pros:
Adds one solid program and another program with high potential
Adds one solid academic institution and another institution in a major market
Could really aid the MVC's multibid quest
Cons:
Huge travel burden
GCU's image and lack of academic prestige is a huge concern
For all their theoretical promise GCU really hasn't been that good
Unstable (both would leave us for comparable more suitable regional homes)
As a recent transplant to Phoenix I completely support adding GCU! They have great facilities.
Unfortunately other than for my enjoyment they probably don't make sense
I would disagree they haven't been good. They have won 20 or more games four years straight.
They've been "good" in the sense that they've beaten up on weak competition but they haven't won any games of note against significant opponents, NMSU owns them, an in relation to their supposed promise "The next Gonzaga" they have fallen WAY short of expectations. That and a poor academic reputation is not a good recipe for moving up. This would be more about getting NMSU and hoping GCU is good than anything else.
Has there ever been an article claiming that Murray State wants to join?
Yes back when we were added they were adament about wanting to go Their fanbase seems to support it in droves even today according to their board.
In the OVC they have a much better chance of going to the NCAA. They have been in the OVC since it formed in 1948.
These two are true but they seem to want more and good on them for it. This is about seeding credits and bids for them Not just appearances
Would the MVFC take the football team?
Yes they would That doesn't appear to be a sticking point from anything I have seen or read.
They would be nice to have but to me it doesn't make sense for them.
We disagree on this. I think it makes tremendous sense for both league and team. You can argue the league needs them more than they need the league but it would still be a tremendous marriage for both sides if the university presidents of the MVC could just get out of their own way.
NMSU certainly should be considered for the MVC.
Grand Canyon? No way! Their move to being a 'non-profit' is essentially a giant scam, in which the 'non-profit' entity was setup by the 'for profit' and required to purchase a high volume of services from the remaining 'for profit' enterprise. I am sure there are one or two exceptions, but their academics are a joke.
We'd probably have to fill in the gaps between Missouri State and New Mexico State to make it work somehow and that would open up schools in Texas or possibly Oral Roberts and doesn't really leave a spot for Murray State which should be the goal and is the easiest solution to add quality to the conference and aid our quest to being a multibid league on any sort of consistent basis. If Belmont and Murray can get it done from the freaking OVC we can get it done in our conference if we would just make it a priority as a conference. Sadly I'm not seeing very inspiring scheduling from a lot of MVC members towards that goal. And if we're going to waste non conference spots on non D1s and schools like SIUE we might as well go the 11\20 route with Murray State
How about NDSU?
Big time travel concerns I don't think the rest of the MVC wants to go to the Dakotas in all sports. There is also the question of whether they would want to leave the Summit League. NDSU and SDSU as a combo would be a nice get I think, though I am concerned that NDSU doesn't deliver the upside as a program we would want (though they did win a tournament game this past decade), and that doesn't create a spot for Murray State who definitely should be the #1 option for the MVC.
Father Harry is pretty plugged in on all things MVC. Although this sounds like just an innocuous poll question, I have to wonder by posing it if he's subtly hinting that something's up on the Murray State to MVC front? I sure hope so!
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1218545536325824512
Meanwhile in teams that should be in the MVC:
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1233961319113674752
Really wish we could get one (or both) of these teams in the conference. It would help the league so much in its goals.
Murray State and Belmont are like Gonzaga and St. Mary's in their respective leagues...the 2 teams dominate every year in their respective leagues with no reasonable competition. I wonder if they also get the lion's share of receipts from the NCAA tourney. If they do get a large chunk of money every year why would they even consider changing conferences? Even when they have down years I think they still dominate in their conferences don't they?
Yes, this was a "bad" year for Murray State by their standards not by OVC standards. As for tournament credits I believe they are shared equally as they are in the MVC the HL the Summit and many other leagues. To answer your question: seeding. and (perhaps) extra bids. The MVC team will frequently get anywhere from a 10 to a 12 and has a chance (if enough teams pull their weight and have better years which we are close to seeing) at snagging an at large bid. The OVC champion unless they have a truly special year often finds themselves in the 14-16 seed range and has very little shot at an at large (I totally discount Belmont last year I really think that was a Lifetime Achievement Award for Rick Byrd).
Would like to add that Evansville beat Murray St.
Before the turmoil. Can't even compare the team before and after the turmoil. That should be viewed as two distinct seasons.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 02, 2020, 11:43:03 AM
Would like to add that Evansville beat Murray St.
SIU-E beat Belmont early on in the OVC season
Exactly. Teams have bad games an take bad losses. And it is important to remember that at the time Evansville was NOT a bad loss and you wouldn't have found a single person who would have considered it one.
It seems as though Murray State fans have by and large turned against the idea of going to the MVC... Sigh... That's sad.... It's such a good match for both team and league and makes so much sense....
It seems as like a 12 bid MVC is being discussed by the league. I have seen multiple articles this morning (I'll connect them later) say that sources are saying the league wants to expand outride of the midwest and are looking at a Texas team and.... Cleveland State???
Belmont and Murray state outside them it should be a hard no. No one else makes the MVC better as 12 schools.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on April 12, 2021, 11:57:27 AM
Belmont and Murray state outside them it should be a hard no. No one else makes the MVC better as 12 schools.
Yea I would agree, and even then I would still have questions cause we have to split shares more ways. We proved this year we can be a 2 bid league without Belmont or Murray, so would adding them give us the potential for a 3 bid league or a perennial 2 big league is the question. I would lean towards yes but I could be convinced otherwise. I cannot come up with a justification for Cleveland State though. Not in a million years.
With all due respect to Cleveland State which has been a very good program at times historically and is on a definite upswing if we're looking at an Ohio school and can't get Dayton(which we won't be able to) then we should be looking at Wright State for a host of reasons not just basketball. They are solid to terrific in multiple sports that the MVC is strong in and their budget would (I believe) be upper tier in the MVC. Belmont and Murray State is the play if we can get them. Wright State would be fine. NKU might be a strong addition but I need to see more from them. I'd be willing to hear overtures from North Dakota State South Dakota State and (especially after this tournament run) Oral Roberts but these are all way down on the list for me. I believe that adding Belmont and Murray State makes the MVC a perennial 2 bid league with a shot at 3 in good years and would be a terrific play for the conference as it is the best way to add strength and keep everything balanced public\private wise. Really I'm willing to consider adding anybody who can add at least one Q1 or Q2 opportunity to the conference because we need more of those games even if it takes away the double round robin.
Murray State adds a strong fanbase that travels well and a historically strong program. They will make Arch Madness even more fun especially when they are good.
Belmont is good in both men's and women's basketball and adds a new and growing market to the MVC.
Wright State is all around solid with terrific baseball
NKU has shown potential in basketball but might possibly be at or near their ceiling but they would also add a new and growing market to the MVC so if they could tap into that a little more they could be a strong addition but I'm not as bullish on them as I was say 2-3 years ago.
North Dakota State and South Dakota State are state flagships with very strong athletic departments. South Dakota State would add a lot to women's basketball as well while being good for men's basketball. North Dakota State is good in a lot of sports.
Oral Roberts is coming off a huge tournament run. Is private. Gives Missouri State a travel partner. Allows the MVC back into the Tulsa market (for whatever that is worth to them) Is very good in baseball and decent overall in most sports.
Honorable mentions (these won't be considered but I want to shout out some schools that are strong in an important MVC sport or who have potential)
UIC (baseball)
South Dakota (Women's basketball)
St Thomas (New to D1 but has a large endowment and historical success at the D3 level and is in a decent market that the MVC might want in Minneapolis)
I'm very pro expansion because I love the idea of being a 3+ bid league most years in multiple sports. It would make the conference athletic season as a whole even more interesting. Could you imagine our already decent basketball leagues for both men and women with Belmont Murray State South Dakota State and one other of Wright State North Dakota State or ORU?) Baseball with Wright State or ORU (or UIC if they improved the rest of their athletics) added? We'd have top 25 teams all over the place! The problem is that it would only further underscore our facilities issues and bring them even closer to the fore than they are already.
SFA baby!!!!! Axe em Jacks!! Add another teacher's college to the MVC!
Quote from: vok22 on April 12, 2021, 11:51:29 AM
It seems as like a 12 bid MVC is being discussed by the league. I have seen multiple articles this morning (I'll connect them later) say that sources are saying the league wants to expand outride of the midwest and are looking at a Texas team and.... Cleveland State???
Texas ??? ??? ???
That is interesting who could the Valley pluck from the Lone Star State?
Houston Baptist, Incarnate Word or Texas A&M Corpus Christi from the falling apart Southland?
Texas State or Texas Arlington from the Sun Belt? And what happens to those schools football programs? (No football at TAMUCC).
Is DBU moving up to D1 with all its sports???
Texas ??? ??? ???
I see no way MVC expansion occurs without Murray St.
I read the article. The Cleveland St and Texas thing is probably just one administrator's idea, who leaked it to the author, but isn't actually a shared sentiment across the league.
Schools like us, Evansville, etc. are hit hard by Covid. Most of these schools are not voting to add a flight for all sports.
Texas ?? Better than Cleveland State.
SLU or bust. The A-10 travel budget expenses at SLU can't be popular among faculty, especially, and COVID only magnified that. Their travel is outlandish.
Faculty have roughly 0% sway in conference affiliation decisions.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 12, 2021, 12:57:30 PMSFA baby!!!!! Axe em Jacks!! Add another teacher's college to the MVC!
I would love to see SFA added. Great basketball program in both men's and women's basketball. Don't see it happening with their move to the WAC though.
Quote from: VALPO LI on April 12, 2021, 01:03:35 PMQuote from: vok22 on April 12, 2021, 11:51:29 AMIt seems as like a 12 bid MVC is being discussed by the league. I have seen multiple articles this morning (I'll connect them later) say that sources are saying the league wants to expand outride of the midwest and are looking at a Texas team and.... Cleveland State???
Texas ??? ??? ??? That is interesting who could the Valley pluck from the Lone Star State? Houston Baptist, Incarnate Word or Texas A&M Corpus Christi from the falling apart Southland? Texas State or Texas Arlington from the Sun Belt? And what happens to those schools football programs? (No football at TAMUCC). Is DBU moving up to D1 with all its sports??? Texas ??? ??? ???
No football at UTA either. Incarnate Word is being looked at by the WAC which is a better fit for all involved. No way we want a school on the Texas-Mexico border like TAMUCC. I think the Texas thing is just conjecture based on the fact that our new commissioner comes from the Big XII and nothing more. I remember hearing some whispers (from sources like Father Harry) that schools like SFA and UTA could be on the table but that was pre-pandemic and I'm not sure if either party is interested in that now especially with UTA having fallen off somewhat from where they were when those rumors were floated and SFA having already made a move. I also agree with Crusadermoe that if we can accomplish expansion without adding flights that is ideal. Murray State and Belmont is the ideal play. Maybe Belmont is finally receptive after seeing what the selection committee thinks of the OVC in having them miss even the NIT despite lading D1 in wins and watching two decent schools (with the possibility of a third by the end of next year) leave the OVC.
SLU would be a great fit for The Valley but The Valley may not be a great fit for SLU. I feel they are waiting for the Big East to come a calling.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 12, 2021, 01:24:33 PM
Maybe Belmont is finally receptive after seeing what the selection committee thinks of the OVC in having them miss even the NIT despite lading D1 in wins and watching two decent schools (with the possibility of a third by the end of next year) leave the OVC.
The MVC literally just got hosed on seeding for the 2nd time at least (1st time would have been WSU in 16-17) with Loyola getting an 8-seed despite being a top 10-15 team in the analytics, so I'm not sure that's the best argument for Belmont. Also, Belmont was rated about 15 spots lower in those same analytics and the NIT cut its field in half this year, so I'm not sure that's a great argument either.
Also, while neither of the programs leaving the OVC are good losses on the basketball side of the conference, that's also 2 less mouths to feed for Belmont and Murray State, the former of whom got a bid in 2019 on the backs of their non-conference results, so it really depends on whether or not they're still able to get those games (and they're almost always on the road), because they'll have 2 more opportunities if the OVC now moves to an 18 game schedule with only 10 teams remaining. Not saying the sell shouldn't be made to either or both Murray State or Belmont, but their shot at a multi-bid league would only be marginally better in the MVC compared to the OVC if one or both moved, and that kind of depends on how Loyola does moving forward.
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 12, 2021, 02:08:52 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on April 12, 2021, 01:24:33 PMMaybe Belmont is finally receptive after seeing what the selection committee thinks of the OVC in having them miss even the NIT despite lading D1 in wins and watching two decent schools (with the possibility of a third by the end of next year) leave the OVC.
The MVC literally just got hosed on seeding for the 2nd time at least (1st time would have been WSU in 16-17) with Loyola getting an 8-seed despite being a top 10-15 team in the analytics, so I'm not sure that's the best argument for Belmont. Also, Belmont was rated about 15 spots lower in those same analytics and the NIT cut its field in half this year, so I'm not sure that's a great argument either. Also, while neither of the programs leaving the OVC are good losses on the basketball side of the conference, that's also 2 less mouths to feed for Belmont and Murray State, the former of whom got a bid in 2019 on the backs of their non-conference results, so it really depends on whether or not they're still able to get those games (and they're almost always on the road), because they'll have 2 more opportunities if the OVC now moves to an 18 game schedule with only 10 teams remaining. Not saying the sell shouldn't be made to either or both Murray State or Belmont, but their shot at a multi-bid league would only be marginally better in the MVC compared to the OVC if one or both moved, and that kind of depends on how Loyola does moving forward.
Great counterargument. A lot of good points there. It's important to remember that in a non-COVID year Belmont would have had its NIT bid as the regular season champion of the OVC. Would they have gotten at least one home game (which a lot of people I'm sure would argue that they deserve?) probably not because regular season champions of leagues like the OVC are rarely favored when it comes to NIT seeding. I feel like the chance to host NIT games as the floor of a season would be greater in the MVC than the OVC and that would be enough to take on the challenge considering the travel budget isn't exactly insane for Belmont in the MVC especially if they go to divisions which could be very possible and even encouraged. The selection committee definitely doesn't have nearly enough regard for the MVC and it has even less regard for the OVC. Yes Belmont got in a few years ago but I really think that was more a nod of respect to Rick Byrd than anything else (mixed in with a little luck of Lipscomb being a really good team and somehow adding two quality wins to Belmont's schedule they were not expecting). In fairness, the same thing happened to Drake with the COVID scheduling giving them two extra Q2 games (that they both won) that they otherwise wouldn't have had. Drake got lucky too. I agree that Loyola will probably be important to the multibid future of the MVC but it's also eminently possible that another program could rise and help fulfill that goal for the conference. There are a few teams who could rise to fill that role. (Drake UNI possibly SIU or Missouri State or Bradley Us and Illinois State if either program ever gets it's act together). There are plenty of good reasons for both Murray and Belmont and the MVC to consider the move. The reality is that "marginally better" is the best we can hope for when it comes to realignment at the MVC or Murray\Belmont level.
I can't help but wonder if this article is out there to indicate one of the following possibilities:
1. Both Murray and Belmont are a go
2. The MVC is trying to put pressure on Belmont
3. They have found a suitable 12th other than Belmont
I can't imagine Murray State would be left high and dry here though I suppose it's possible. I hope we get some traction and more information soon enough. Murray State and Belmont would be a huge coup for the MVC. Both have very strong potential.
I know this is only tangentially related to the MVC but I wonder if the possibility of Murray State and Belmont moving and also all of the WAC news means that maybe that AQ7 one year alliance that the ASUN and WAC are forming either isn't allowed or isn't going to happen. Perhaps a school like Austin Peay is looking to make a move to the ASUN now? Perhaps the WAC has zeroed in on a candidate? IWU or a D2 callup. My bet is the AQ7 one year alliance is probably still intact unless Incarnate Word is indeed the add the WAC goes with. If it's a D2 callup like WTAMU Angelo State or TAMU-Commerce then we know that the alliance is going to hold for one year. But the fact that they're looking at Incarnate Word at all seems to suggest to me that maybe the alliance isn't going to hold.
Where is this article that you all speak off.
Can you post the link.
https://www.extrapointsmb.com/p/the-latest-on-d-1-conference-realignment
If it is a team in TX, I would hope for Dallas Baptist to go all-in on D-1. Apologies that we are on the opposite side of the fence again USC, but no to SFA. I am glad that they have repaired their 'party school' reputation, but no one wants to travel to NacoNowhere, TX. They should stick to the WAC and that new direction.
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2021, 06:35:31 PMIf it is a team in TX, I would hope for Dallas Baptist to go all-in on D-1. Apologies that we are on the opposite side of the fence again USC, but no to SFA. I am glad that they have repaired their 'party school' reputation, but no one wants to travel to NacoNowhere, TX. They should stick to the WAC and that new direction.
DBU is super unlikely. I have heard they don't even have women's basketball and their athletics budget right now is pretty low for the MVC as I understand. They would have to invest a lot to be ready. I'm guessing they're looking at a school like UTA which is not very exciting.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 12, 2021, 01:24:33 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 12, 2021, 12:57:30 PMSFA baby!!!!! Axe em Jacks!! Add another teacher's college to the MVC!
I would love to see SFA added. Great basketball program in both men's and women's basketball. Don't see it happening with their move to the WAC though.
Quote from: VALPO LI on April 12, 2021, 01:03:35 PMQuote from: vok22 on April 12, 2021, 11:51:29 AMIt seems as like a 12 bid MVC is being discussed by the league. I have seen multiple articles this morning (I'll connect them later) say that sources are saying the league wants to expand outride of the midwest and are looking at a Texas team and.... Cleveland State???
Texas ??? ??? ??? That is interesting who could the Valley pluck from the Lone Star State? Houston Baptist, Incarnate Word or Texas A&M Corpus Christi from the falling apart Southland? Texas State or Texas Arlington from the Sun Belt? And what happens to those schools football programs? (No football at TAMUCC). Is DBU moving up to D1 with all its sports??? Texas ??? ??? ???
No football at UTA either. Incarnate Word is being looked at by the WAC which is a better fit for all involved. No way we want a school on the Texas-Mexico border like TAMUCC. I think the Texas thing is just conjecture based on the fact that our new commissioner comes from the Big XII and nothing more. I remember hearing some whispers (from sources like Father Harry) that schools like SFA and UTA could be on the table but that was pre-pandemic and I'm not sure if either party is interested in that now especially with UTA having fallen off somewhat from where they were when those rumors were floated and SFA having already made a move. I also agree with Crusadermoe that if we can accomplish expansion without adding flights that is ideal. Murray State and Belmont is the ideal play. Maybe Belmont is finally receptive after seeing what the selection committee thinks of the OVC in having them miss even the NIT despite lading D1 in wins and watching two decent schools (with the possibility of a third by the end of next year) leave the OVC.
Imagine the surprise to the students in Corpus Christi when they learn they are on the US/Mexico border. I think you are confusing it with UTRGV.
Honestly, SFA would be great for the MVC. This school is on the rise folks. beautiful campus, academics are better, decent sports, teachers college like other Valley schools, yes txvalpo we disagree but you are in denial of the the greatness of the Conference of Champions
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 12, 2021, 08:06:59 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on April 12, 2021, 01:24:33 PMQuote from: usc4valpo on April 12, 2021, 12:57:30 PMSFA baby!!!!! Axe em Jacks!! Add another teacher's college to the MVC!
I would love to see SFA added. Great basketball program in both men's and women's basketball. Don't see it happening with their move to the WAC though. Quote from: VALPO LI on April 12, 2021, 01:03:35 PMQuote from: vok22 on April 12, 2021, 11:51:29 AMIt seems as like a 12 bid MVC is being discussed by the league. I have seen multiple articles this morning (I'll connect them later) say that sources are saying the league wants to expand outride of the midwest and are looking at a Texas team and.... Cleveland State???
Texas ??? ??? ??? That is interesting who could the Valley pluck from the Lone Star State? Houston Baptist, Incarnate Word or Texas A&M Corpus Christi from the falling apart Southland? Texas State or Texas Arlington from the Sun Belt? And what happens to those schools football programs? (No football at TAMUCC). Is DBU moving up to D1 with all its sports??? Texas ??? ??? ???
No football at UTA either. Incarnate Word is being looked at by the WAC which is a better fit for all involved. No way we want a school on the Texas-Mexico border like TAMUCC. I think the Texas thing is just conjecture based on the fact that our new commissioner comes from the Big XII and nothing more. I remember hearing some whispers (from sources like Father Harry) that schools like SFA and UTA could be on the table but that was pre-pandemic and I'm not sure if either party is interested in that now especially with UTA having fallen off somewhat from where they were when those rumors were floated and SFA having already made a move. I also agree with Crusadermoe that if we can accomplish expansion without adding flights that is ideal. Murray State and Belmont is the ideal play. Maybe Belmont is finally receptive after seeing what the selection committee thinks of the OVC in having them miss even the NIT despite lading D1 in wins and watching two decent schools (with the possibility of a third by the end of next year) leave the OVC.
Imagine the surprise to the students in Corpus Christi when they learn they are on the US/Mexico border. I think you are confusing it with UTRGV.
I wasn't I just thought it was further south than it is. Point taken.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 12, 2021, 08:11:41 PM
Honestly, SFA would be great for the MVC. This school is on the rise folks. beautiful campus, academics are better, decent sports, teachers college like other Valley schools, yes txvalpo we disagree but you are in denial of the the greatness of the Conference of Champions
When I was in school, SFA was the school you attended if you wanted to get drunk every day, and yes, classes happened on occasion :)
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2021, 09:31:39 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 12, 2021, 08:11:41 PM
Honestly, SFA would be great for the MVC. This school is on the rise folks. beautiful campus, academics are better, decent sports, teachers college like other Valley schools, yes txvalpo we disagree but you are in denial of the the greatness of the Conference of Champions
When I was in school, SFA was the school you attended if you wanted to get drunk every day, and yes, classes happened on occasion :)
That would match well with SIU's and InSU's reputations back in the day.
Every year there are rumors of potential expansion. Is the MVC unstable/not happy with its current version? Not a good look for every summer to be saying we're looking into expansion. Much better to say we are happy with our current members...and someone comes along to move the needle then look at them.
Cleveland State does not move the needle. A school in Texas does not move the needle. Lets not be adding teams just to add teams.
Yes, expansion that doesn't involve Murray St or Belmont is just expansion for the sake of expansion.
Quote from: may know on April 13, 2021, 10:52:38 AM
Yes, expansion that doesn't involve Murray St or Belmont is just expansion for the sake of expansion.
I support this message...
Hello to all. I was cruising the board and thought I would drop in. Wanted to give you all some rumors on OVC expansion if you are interested but the tl;dr on that is that they won't do anything to sway the Racers, if the MVC came calling I think we would answer.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 14, 2021, 01:55:27 PM
Quote from: may know on April 13, 2021, 10:52:38 AM
Yes, expansion that doesn't involve Murray St or Belmont is just expansion for the sake of expansion.
I support this message...
Hello to all. I was cruising the board and thought I would drop in. Wanted to give you all some rumors on OVC expansion if you are interested but the tl;dr on that is that they won't do anything to sway the Racers, if the MVC came calling I think we would answer.
Would be interested to see where the OVC was headed. 2 football schools leaving plus questions about Austin Peay maybe following could be a killer
Now this is all rumor so tifwiw
OVC is adding two. The scuttlebutt is Chattanooga and Western Illinois.
As for Peay, I highly doubt the go anywhere. There is very little support in Clarksville.
Murray St. and SFA in the Valley. Perfect, now make it happen. Conference membership is the Wild West right now.
Western Illinois makes a lot of sense in the OVC. It would be the last vestige of the original AMCU/Mid-Con.
WIU I could definitely see seeking OVC membership. Chattanooga would be a big surprise to me. Yes they would save on travel but they would be giving up a lot in basketball and football strength and prestige leaving the SoCon. It could happen but I wouldn't put that one as very likely. I'd think they would give the newfangled Atlantic Sun a whirl before going to the OVC if they were going to move. In fact I have seen Chattanooga to the A-Sun rumors. Why all of this speculation that they might move? The SoCon seems like a really good fit for them. Are they looking to get into a more public focused conference? Do they have FBS aspirations that the A-Sun might one day potentially fulfill? It just seems odd to leave a strong basketball and football conference for a league that seems weaker in both unless there is more to this that will become clear in the future (like the Atlantic Sun going FBS for instance). Even then I don't understand leaving a strong basketball league for whatever form the A-Sun takes just to play FBS football possibly as an independent or definitely well outside of the money conferences while adding scholarships and travel to be FBS. Just seems like a lot of extra costs for not much benefit.
Here's an article advocating for an FBS move for Chattanooga (old from 2019).
https://www.chattanoogan.com/2019/7/2/392726/Randy-Smith-Mocs-Should-Get-Out-Of.aspx
Central Arkansas AD states that Atlantic Sun FBS move could happen.
https://katv.com/sports/content/central-arkansas-leaving-southland-conference-to-join-revamped-atlantic-sun
In all honesty I'm not sure if there is any truth to either. Chattanooga was a surprise to me as well.
During the last round of MVC expansion, Texas- Arlington was mentioned by folks I talked to, but if public/private split is important that might not be reasonable.
My worry would be that they add a Texas public like UTA and Belmont. Both would fit the OP.
Frankly I would be physically ill if that happened.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 15, 2021, 06:52:55 AM
In all honesty I'm not sure if there is any truth to either. Chattanooga was a surprise to me as well.
During the last round of MVC expansion, Texas- Arlington was mentioned by folks I talked to, but if public/private split is important that might not be reasonable.
My worry would be that they add a Texas public like UTA and Belmont. Both would fit the OP.
Frankly I would be physically ill if that happened.
You lost me with the Belmont comment.
UTA is a public, Belmont a private. If the expansion is into Texas, its much more likely that the public comes from there. Otherwise you are looking at Incarnate Word, Abilene Christian.or Houston Baptist or outside Texas Oral Roberts in Tulsa. The other thing said in the OP, was that the Texas university would be in a major city. That drops ACU. So then the MVC is looking at Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, or the like. If Texas is home to the public in this scenario, that opens up Texas Arlington. Arlington is between Dallas and Ft Worth, and about 19 miles from DFW airport.
Assuming that public/private balance is required, that would mean that the MVC is probably leaning towards a private in a large city. Bellarmine could be that. But Belmont would fit better with their name being thrown around before.
I don't want that to happen. Not the least of which is that it would screw my Racers.
But, and this is something that made Valpo getting the invite over the Racers in the last round palatable, Belmont has no fan support. None. And that is with a tremendous amount of success. Valpo has huge buy in from their nearby area. They pack the gym, they support their team, and they do so seemingly come hell or high water. Belmont, as a basketball team, would absolutely fit the MVC. As a program who can't sell out their building even when they are good, that doesn't fit, IMO.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 15, 2021, 03:03:01 PM
UTA is a public, Belmont a private. If the expansion is into Texas, its much more likely that the public comes from there. Otherwise you are looking at Incarnate Word, Abilene Christian.or Houston Baptist or outside Texas Oral Roberts in Tulsa. The other thing said in the OP, was that the Texas university would be in a major city. That drops ACU. So then the MVC is looking at Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, or the like. If Texas is home to the public in this scenario, that opens up Texas Arlington. Arlington is between Dallas and Ft Worth, and about 19 miles from DFW airport.
Assuming that public/private balance is required, that would mean that the MVC is probably leaning towards a private in a large city. Bellarmine could be that. But Belmont would fit better with their name being thrown around before.
I don't want that to happen. Not the least of which is that it would screw my Racers.
But, and this is something that made Valpo getting the invite over the Racers in the last round palatable, Belmont has no fan support. None. And that is with a tremendous amount of success. Valpo has huge buy in from their nearby area. They pack the gym, they support their team, and they do so seemingly come hell or high water. Belmont, as a basketball team, would absolutely fit the MVC. As a program who can't sell out their building even when they are good, that doesn't fit, IMO.
Having recently lived in Nashville, I visited the Lipscomb campus to watch Valpo play baseball. They have a wonderful basketball arena. Without doing a bunch of research, would Lipscomb be an option for the Valley?
I have to admit, I have never been to Lipscomb to see a game. Beautiful campus though. I just dont know how much Nashville cares about college basketball. The OVC had their conference tournament there for years and having gone to many of them, there was very little community support at large. In Evansville, a much smaller town, there is real general interest in college sports and the OVC tournament, to the point that during the OVC tournament, there are always good numbers of Evansville locals just showing up to watch basketball. I know its passè to have a conference tournament on a perceived equal's home floor but the facility os great and the people care.
It was bad enough in Nashville, that Belmont's fans couldn't bother to show up or the championship game in the same city. They would turn out maybe 1000 fans at best. There have been years that there were 8000 Racer fans for the same game.
So to answer your question- Lipscomb isn't quite at the same level, IMO, as Belmont basketball wise, but I have no idea about their fan support.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 15, 2021, 03:03:01 PM
UTA is a public, Belmont a private. If the expansion is into Texas, its much more likely that the public comes from there. Otherwise you are looking at Incarnate Word, Abilene Christian.or Houston Baptist or outside Texas Oral Roberts in Tulsa. The other thing said in the OP, was that the Texas university would be in a major city. That drops ACU. So then the MVC is looking at Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, or the like. If Texas is home to the public in this scenario, that opens up Texas Arlington. Arlington is between Dallas and Ft Worth, and about 19 miles from DFW airport.
Assuming that public/private balance is required, that would mean that the MVC is probably leaning towards a private in a large city. Bellarmine could be that. But Belmont would fit better with their name being thrown around before.
I don't want that to happen. Not the least of which is that it would screw my Racers.
But, and this is something that made Valpo getting the invite over the Racers in the last round palatable, Belmont has no fan support. None. And that is with a tremendous amount of success. Valpo has huge buy in from their nearby area. They pack the gym, they support their team, and they do so seemingly come hell or high water. Belmont, as a basketball team, would absolutely fit the MVC. As a program who can't sell out their building even when they are good, that doesn't fit, IMO.
My bad I misread and thought you were still talking OVC.
No worries. In all honesty, I probably should have been more clear about what I was talking about.
UTA is not and has not been a good program since they fired Scott Cross for reasons that still don't make sense. Market or no market I do not want them. If we choose them as a public over Murray State I will be upset even if we also get Belmont. There are so many schools I would rather have than UTA. They have potential but they also seem intent on limiting themselves with bizarre decisions like firing Cross.
I dont understand the Scott Cross firing either.
I guess both Lipscomb and Belmont don't have great fan bases. I looked at 2018-2019 season for a sample. Lipscomb was 29-8 and drew 2369 per home game. Belmont was 27-6 and drew 2792 per home game. At the same time, Valpo was 15-18 and drew 3126 per home game.
Quote from: vu72 on April 15, 2021, 03:39:07 PMI guess both Lipscomb and Belmont don't have great fan bases. I looked at 2018-2019 season for a sample. Lipscomb was 29-8 and drew 2369 per home game. Belmont was 27-6 and drew 2792 per home game. At the same time, Valpo was 15-18 and drew 3126 per home game.
You KNOW when it's a big game and Valpo is good we pack the gym. How many games where first place in the HL was on the line had 4500-5000+? We just need to get to that level again and the place will be rocking. That I feel very confident of.
I have watched the feed for some of Belmont's games... they were counting people passing by on their way to someplace else.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 15, 2021, 03:54:18 PMI have watched the feed for some of Belmont's games... they were counting people passing by on their way to someplace else.
I was talking about Valpo. I know Belmont's attendance isn't great. I'm not sure if MVC membership would help with that or not but really it's on court performance that matters to me. As long as they keep picking off P5 teams in the non conference stacking wins turning in top 50 or so NET ratings and being a threat for at large bids and winning in March they are fine for the MVC in my book even if they don't show up or send a lot of people to Arch Madness. That's what Murray State is for. They can do everything Belmont can AND they show up in droves and will pack the conference tournament. They were and are my favorite expansion choice.
There are a lot of reasons to like Murray State - primarily the history of their program (what a great history of coaches!). Good school and nice people too.
But there is one major negative on Murray State in comparison to most any other alternative discussed here (UTA, Belmont, etc.). Murray, KY is in the middle of nowhere. 20,000 person town in which the nearest larger town is Paducah, KY. Thus, no media coverage. Most conferences look for increased media coverage when expanding.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 15, 2021, 04:31:09 PMThere are a lot of reasons to like Murray State - primarily the history of their program (what a great history of coaches!). Good school and nice people too. But there is one major negative on Murray State in comparison to most any other alternative discussed here (UTA, Belmont, etc.). Murray, KY is in the middle of nowhere. 20,000 person town in which the nearest larger town is Paducah, KY. Thus, no media coverage. Most conferences look for increased media coverage when expanding.
If we want to succeed we can't think in those terms though. We don't have a large media deal and the amount of exposure we could garner in DFW (UTA) Tulsa (ORU) Dayton-Cincinnati (Wright State and NKU) Milwaukee or Chicago (if we also added UIC) isn't going to do anything measurable for the conference especially if that team doesn't produce. Murray State at least adds ready rivalries with multiple MVC institutions that will boost ticket sales in a way that no other team can. Getting Belmont on board too would add another hot rivalry just with Murray and Belmont playing each other. More than markets it needs to be about programs for us. That's what's going to get our games on TV and maybe boost our media deal a little bit. Having a presence in a market just to have a presence won't do it. If it were simply about markets we wouldn't and shouldn't be here. They should have gone and gotten UIC or Milwaukee the last go round. There's a reason they didn't and I hope they don't abandon that vision just because they finally got multibid status back this year. The most important aspect that the MVC should consider is "Can this program produce on court results?" Full stop. That's why I don't care about Belmont's attendance numbers. Even in spite of that they produce. They win. They get results to a degree really only Murray State can consistently match out of the pool of realistic targets. If we're going to take a swing at a market and our goal is to just get into a new market then we're missing the point. This conference needs to assemble the best of the best at picking off the big boys to get respect. Having a presence in a market won't do it. If it did the HL would be one of the greatest mid major leagues ever. Fortunately four of the last five MVC additions had nothing to do with market. UNI and Missouri State weren't about market. Evansville wasn't about market (if it was about market they would have picked Butler at the time even before Butler became what they did.) Adding us wasn't about market. We can't afford to and shouldn't be willing to buck that trend especially for a public school that tends to be more constrained in what they can do to boost their athletic profile due to smaller endowments and more control over how and what they spend on. Again, there's a reason Loyola was picked over UIC to replace Creighton and it isn't as simple as "the private schools wanted another private school" it was because as a private school Loyola was able to build up faster and in ways UIC could not match. By and large public schools lack this capacity to the same degree which is why using a public school to enter a new market is not a winning strategy for a league trying to stay on the right side of the multibid cutline. Adding a public school with a history and track record like Murray State is however a winning strategy.
I've always thought Murray State should have been added at the same time as Valpo. Every year that doesn't happen is a wasted opportunity.
We've done the small-school-in-the-big-city model before with the Horizon League. As a fan its fun to visit those cities and catch a game, but those cities don't care about the game and they certainly aren't tuning into the game on TV. Give me the solid schools in the small towns where the whole town shows up for the game and theres an electric atmosphere.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 15, 2021, 06:19:53 PMI've always thought Murray State should have been added at the same time as Valpo. Every year that doesn't happen is a wasted opportunity. We've done the small-school-in-the-big-city model before with the Horizon League. As a fan its fun to visit those cities and catch a game, but those cities don't care about the game and they certainly aren't tuning into the game on TV. Give me the solid schools in the small towns where the whole town shows up for the game and theres an electric atmosphere.
This guy gets it! Great job distilling my longwinded point into a few concise sentences!
I attended a Belmont/Valpo game in Nashville. It was me and some Valpo fans, that's about it. But they did serve Chick-fil-a
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 14, 2021, 06:41:38 PM
Now this is all rumor so tifwiw
OVC is adding two. The scuttlebutt is Chattanooga and Western Illinois.
As for Peay, I highly doubt the go anywhere. There is very little support in Clarksville.
Remember when the Chicago State AD mentioned the OVC as a possible new location for them.
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 18, 2021, 06:13:34 PMQuote from: RacerJoeD on April 14, 2021, 06:41:38 PMNow this is all rumor so tifwiw OVC is adding two. The scuttlebutt is Chattanooga and Western Illinois. As for Peay, I highly doubt the go anywhere. There is very little support in Clarksville.
Remember when the Chicago State AD mentioned the OVC as a possible new location for them.
You'd think they'd want football playing members if they could get them. That said, I'd be very happy for Chicago State if they got into the OVC. That's the most geographically friendly conference they've been in since the Mid Con. The travel cost savings might even possibly allow them to see if those rumored plans of possibly starting football one day (at least at the PFL level) can get off the ground which would be great for them.
Chicago State would be a bad add for the OVC, IMO. Not saying they wouldn't do it. One thing I can say for sure, the home office in Brentwood has made some pretty poor calls in the past.
Chicago State would be a bad add for any conference. Honestly, the state of Illinois needs to consider the excess and inefficient spending and shut down Chicago State - because its performance as a university is awful. Merging the school into UIC would be great for Chicago State's current students and would eliminate administration that is not necessary and has performed poorly year over year.
I can appreciate that. My biggest concern is that adding teams to "get into the market" only works when the team wins, otherwise its an expensive mistake. I always think about DePaul and Fordham. Both have some followers in their city and when they win they add more, but are bad often enough that they are ignored by their market.
One of the things that many conferences seemingly fail to do is to do a little market research on their potential adds. The biggest knock for my Racers isn't necessarily the media market (the Paducah/Cape Girardeau/Harrisburg market is ranked ahead of Cedar Rapids and South Bend/Elkhart in size) its that SIU already is in that market. What I can tell you is that SIU is not followed all that closely in the southern part of the media market where Murray State is dominant, and Murray State isn't as prevalent as SIU in the northern part.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 19, 2021, 01:33:51 PMThe biggest knock for my Racers isn't necessarily the media market (the Paducah/Cape Girardeau/Harrisburg market is ranked ahead of Cedar Rapids and South Bend/Elkhart in size)
Would love for the Racers to become part of the MVC, but I think you are comparing apples to oranges with your media market stats. Yes the Racers Media Designated Marketing Area population is slightly larger than the South Bend/Elkhart DMA only because the physical land area is MUCH larger than the South Bend/Elkhart DMA covering almost 40 counties in 4 states versus 10 counties in 2 states. This is primarily due to population and television/radio station density. This is also a really bad example because the DMA fails to take into account Notre Dame which reaches FAR outside of the South Bend market and on to a national level. Here are images of the two DMA's, like I said, apples to oranges.
Murray gets media attention because of its successful program, the huge land area of your DMA doesn't have much to do with it. No knock intended, just keep up the good work on the court.
(https://tbh.lerctr.org/~ekb/TVMarkets/City%20Maps/Paducah.gif)
(https://tbh.lerctr.org/~ekb/TVMarkets/City%20Maps/South%20Bend.gif)
Either way having a second team in that market so that we would have the two best teams in it and thereby cover the whole area would be a great move because it's a basketball crazy area. SIU has a strong following especially when they're good and we know how well Murray State fans attend games and travel. I agree keep up the good work on the court but it's past time that the Racers received an MVC invite. I hope Belmont is ready to join but if not and we need a private school maybe we should look at ORU. I know that's anathema to most Valpo fans but they look like they might possibly be back on an upswing and that is another well-supported program when the team is good and they add a terrific baseball program as well. And it solves the issue of Missouri State being such a geographic outlier for the league. There's a lot to like there. I vastly prefer Belmont but if they're STILL not ready to join we should consider whether it's wise to let Murray State continue to suffer for Belmont's stubbornness.
My point was only about market size rank population wise. the Paducah market is ranked 84 with a population of around 330,000, while Elkhart/SB is ranked 98 with 277,000. Cedar Rapids is is 90 with 311,000 people. Of course Elkhart/SB is far more dense and for same geographic size would cover a much larger population. Here is the list I'm using. Kinda fun to see where everywhere ranks. https://mediatracks.com/resources/nielsen-dma-rankings-2020/
Historically, Murray State has drawn a majority of their students from that same market overlay, which means you have good market saturation, but it also means that as a school, we are very interested in opening up the region in which we are seen. But back to my original point, the ability to make inroads into a market is much easier in a place like ours, whereas in Chicago, its harder to get a blip on the radar. I guess what I'm trying to say, in a very roundabout way, is that the "TV Market" argument is a really weak one to make as a pro or a con for adding a school, Loyola notwithstanding.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 19, 2021, 01:15:59 PM
Chicago State would be a bad add for any conference. Honestly, the state of Illinois needs to consider the excess and inefficient spending and shut down Chicago State - because its performance as a university is awful. Merging the school into UIC would be great for Chicago State's current students and would eliminate administration that is not necessary and has performed poorly year over year.
The need for Chicago State comes from trying to help a very economically disadvantaged neighborhood that has suffered greatly from systemic racism for a long time. If they shut Chicago State down there would be an outcry from the south side politicians that wouldn't end till another school of that size was built in those neighborhoods again. If you want to forget the African American people of the south side of Chicago and have a gang infested wasteland then go right ahead and shut that school down. The city of Chicago would pay for that move with increased crime and severe poverty for another hundred years. Illinois is trying to step up and help the people of those neighborhoods that have suffered since so greatly since they were brought into this country. If you don't want to pay reparations then you better at least keep CSU open.
Quote from: bbtds on April 20, 2021, 09:56:13 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 19, 2021, 01:15:59 PM
Chicago State would be a bad add for any conference. Honestly, the state of Illinois needs to consider the excess and inefficient spending and shut down Chicago State - because its performance as a university is awful. Merging the school into UIC would be great for Chicago State's current students and would eliminate administration that is not necessary and has performed poorly year over year.
The need for Chicago State comes from trying to help a very economically disadvantaged neighborhood that has suffered greatly from systemic racism for a long time. If they shut Chicago State down there would be an outcry from the south side politicians that wouldn't end till another school of that size was built in those neighborhoods again. If you want to forget the African American people of the south side of Chicago and have a gang infested wasteland then go right ahead and shut that school down. The city of Chicago would pay for that move with increased crime and severe poverty for another hundred years. Illinois is trying to step up and help the people of those neighborhoods that have suffered since so greatly since they were brought into this country. If you don't want to pay reparations then you better at least keep CSU open.
bbts: I think that we agree on the need for a university in that location that serves African American students. My argument is that the administration and board for that university have failed miserably in meeting any standard of achievement for that community (their four and six year graduation rates are in the teens or below). I should have been clearer in my recommendation of what needs to be done - fire the administration and board and shut down Chicago State as it stands today. Then, integrate the former Chicago State into UIC (which is much better run). UIC would then evaluate former CSU faculty and retain the faculty members who have demonstrated the ability to support and educate students.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 20, 2021, 10:40:57 PM
Quote from: bbtds on April 20, 2021, 09:56:13 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 19, 2021, 01:15:59 PM
Chicago State would be a bad add for any conference. Honestly, the state of Illinois needs to consider the excess and inefficient spending and shut down Chicago State - because its performance as a university is awful. Merging the school into UIC would be great for Chicago State's current students and would eliminate administration that is not necessary and has performed poorly year over year.
The need for Chicago State comes from trying to help a very economically disadvantaged neighborhood that has suffered greatly from systemic racism for a long time. If they shut Chicago State down there would be an outcry from the south side politicians that wouldn't end till another school of that size was built in those neighborhoods again. If you want to forget the African American people of the south side of Chicago and have a gang infested wasteland then go right ahead and shut that school down. The city of Chicago would pay for that move with increased crime and severe poverty for another hundred years. Illinois is trying to step up and help the people of those neighborhoods that have suffered since so greatly since they were brought into this country. If you don't want to pay reparations then you better at least keep CSU open.
bbts: I think that we agree on the need for a university in that location that serves African American students. My argument is that the administration and board for that university have failed miserably in meeting any standard of achievement for that community (their four and six year graduation rates are in the teens or below). I should have been clearer in my recommendation of what needs to be done - fire the administration and board and shut down Chicago State as it stands today. Then, integrate the former Chicago State into UIC (which is much better run). UIC would then evaluate former CSU faculty and retain the faculty members who have demonstrated the ability to support and educate students.
I don't believe UIC and Chicago State serve the same people and neighborhoods. I recently have been working with some retail establishments on the south side and also with establishments in the area around UIC. They are so vastly different. If the problem is truly that Chicago State's administration and board has done such a poor job then yes they need to be fired and replaced. I can't believe and don't believe the answer is to remove Chicago State from it's neighborhoods and integrate CSU into UIC. If that is really the answer then you need 2 UIC campuses. One on 95th and the one on Halsted & Roosevelt.
bbts - I was advocating for the two campuses (as you stated), but one centralized administration. You could have a separate administration just for Chicago State, but that structure has failed time and time again. Chicago State's graduation rates (four year, six year) are among the worst in the nation (College Factual). The sizes of their incoming classes have dwindled dramatically (prior to the pandemic). Retention of students from the first to second year is poor. By most any measure, the school's performance is appalling...which means that they are failing to serve the people that you correctly say are most in need of an education. The State of Illinois' actions to improve Chicago State have been to "throw money at it", but something far different needs to be done to create change.
I do appreciate you raising some excellent points regarding what is important.
Gross. Please for the love of God no to UT-Arlington at all costs.
https://www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-sun-belt-ut-arlington-belmont-cleveland-state/
I don't think that UTA would be added, but wouldn't mind if they were, as I could see Valpo in-person each year :). My wife did her undergrad at UTA, before getting her law degree at the University of Houston, and even though she doesn't care about Mavericks sports, it would give me bragging rights every time we beat them.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on May 02, 2021, 10:33:04 PM
Gross. Please for the love of God no to UT-Arlington at all costs.
https://www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-sun-belt-ut-arlington-belmont-cleveland-state/
UTA is 1000 miles from Valpo. For context it's about the same distance as Jacksonville, FL or Portland, Maine. Every team, every sport, male and female would have to take long commercial flights to and from, most likely out of ORD or MDW. Every trip would require 3 full days away from campus, 2 nights lodging, multiple group meals, bus transportation for multiple stops over 3 days, missed class time on steriods, etc., etc. Now consider that the best accomplishment on their men's bb resume (which is all that counts) is they've had a few winning seasons, meaning we split tournament revenues 11 ways instead of 10. There are programs with much better resumes than that within 250-300 miles or less. And, just how exactly would adding UTA be a boon to anyone's recruiting, including theirs. Join UTA so you can fly all over the place to communities you've never heard of and where your loved ones can't see you play against another mid-major team.
These alleged conversations either didn't happen, or possibly they were talking about something else n a completely different context, but I seriously doubt it.
Hopefully they just don't do addition by subtraction, am I right :-X
Putting together a couple rumors (and that is all they are at this point is rumor)- Texas Arlington and Little Rock
Quote from: RacerJoeD on May 03, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
Putting together a couple rumors (and that is all they are at this point is rumor)- Texas Arlington and Little Rock
At first glance I am reluctant to even take a second glance.
Quote from: justducky on May 03, 2021, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: RacerJoeD on May 03, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
Putting together a couple rumors (and that is all they are at this point is rumor)- Texas Arlington and Little Rock
At first glance I am reluctant to even take a second glance.
That makes all the difference. Travel partners - why didn't I think of that? Never mind that they're 350 miles apart, or that they finished 6th and 10th in conference this year, or that Little Rock is 670 miles from Valpo. Or maybe they're slowly working their way north with the intent of adding Belmont, MSU, and a few more along the way with the end result being a 20-team super mid conference with a border-to-border footprint. Who knows?
I get why UTA and UALR would have interest, as they are non-football playing schools, and the football conferences are under pressure to get all-sports programs. However, I would not be impressed with these two schools, unless you think of it from a pure market exposure perspective.
Ew. Just threw up in my mouth. Absolutely not.
Mystified by all this MVC expansion speculation. Subtraction by addition.
Paul
SFA? Is there a will there's a way
As I've said before, us talking about adding better programs to the MVC to elevate our profile is like mediocre employees sitting in the lunch room pontificating about how the company should add some better workers to improve productivity.
Not a good look.
Nacog-nopers, usc ;)
I believe that expansion should be based on these four criteria:
1. Consistent regular season performance (ability to generate Q1 and Q2 games for the conference and strong OOC records)
2. The ability (or the potential) to win in March (This is huge Tournament credits are the only real motivation for expansion)
3. Strength in at least one (or more) sport(s) that the MVC values other than men's basketball. Those are: Women's basketball baseball volleyball softball)
4. The footprint should be a consideration but not the be all end all. Try to stay reasonably compact georgraphically but we can expand even somewhat significantly for the right additions.
With that in mind here is what I believe should be the shortlist of candidates from which we pick 2 with perhaps an eye toward taking more in the future if they continue to show promise:
Murray State
Belmont
Wright State
Northern Kentucky
South Dakota State
North Dakota State
Oral Roberts
Little Rock
Beyond this, no thank you at this time. Though I would say there are some schools that would comprise a "watch list" that could make the cut in the future if they do well. Those are:
Milwaukee
St Thomas
UIC (especially if we ever lose Loyola)
South Dakota
MAYBE Austin Peay but I think they're going to go to the Atlantic Sun unless the A-Sun can find a better option
Lipscomb
Bellarmine
If I'm being honest though It's Murray and Belmont for me then a tier break then ORU Wright State NKU SDSU Then another tier break and then Little Rock and NDSU (Good athletic department just too far)
I agree with the assessment of VUGrad1314.
The one that will be interesting is to watch St. Thomas - I'm clearly not advocating they join the MVC right now, yet they will quickly establish themselves in D1 where they start competing this fall. They have a very strong athletic program in all sports, an endowment of $500M+ and very good academics. Specific to basketball, they have (I think) won two D-III national titles over the last decade. They also are now the second basketball D1 program in Minnesota, so will be able to compete for quite a bit of talent that is in the region. (Indiana has about a million more people, yet has eight D1 programs and also gets recruited hard by all of the surrounding states.) St. Thomas is joining the Summit League, and the Pioneer Football League. By the way, given their success in football, I'd guess that they are instantly one of the top teams in the PFL.
I know its short sighted, but this year changed my current thoughts. If we add, I really only want to add Murray State to the Missouri Valley. We established that we can still be a 2 bid league in our current version and why split that pot further? Adding another team isn't going to get us to 3 bids. But, Murray State is strong, has national name recognition, and a great fanbase which will add some energy into the conference. They would likely prove to be a quality add that moves the needle and is capable of making a run in the NCAAT. (Is someone like Belmont really going to inject energy or excitement with a lackadaisical fan base?) IMO, the discussion should end with Murray State (and monitor those other programs for possible consideration as a replacement if/when someone else leaves). As the article above mentioned, if conferences are looking to reduce travel/restrict its area, will someone like St Louis be looking to move in a few years?
disagree with 1314. Why not SFA? Proven excellence in men's and women's basketball. cripe, the men's team beat Duke at their home court! Good teachers college like Illinois State and UNI. beautiful campus in the Piney Woods. decent fan base. Hours from two major metro cities. Perfect fit for the Valley.
If we're expanding into Texas SFA is the program I would want I just don't see them as an option at this point given their move to the WAC. You don't see schools jump around that much in a short time period. It's not that I wouldn't welcome SFA with open arms into the MVC it's that I don't see them as an option.
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 05, 2021, 09:49:28 PM
disagree with 1314. Why not SFA? Proven excellence in men's and women's basketball. cripe, the men's team beat Duke at their home court! Good teachers college like Illinois State and UNI. beautiful campus in the Piney Woods. decent fan base. Hours from two major metro cities. Perfect fit for the Valley.
Wow, if you consider 3 hours to Dallas, and 3 hours to Houston, as being 'close' to two major metro cities, a lot of universities might be able to stake that claim. I can guarantee you that no one in either metro area would think of SFA as just a hop, skip, or jump away from our areas ;). Heck, let's count Austin as a third major city that is 'close' by, as it is only 4 hours!
Quote from: valpotx on May 06, 2021, 12:19:16 AMQuote from: usc4valpo on May 05, 2021, 09:49:28 PMdisagree with 1314. Why not SFA? Proven excellence in men's and women's basketball. cripe, the men's team beat Duke at their home court! Good teachers college like Illinois State and UNI. beautiful campus in the Piney Woods. decent fan base. Hours from two major metro cities. Perfect fit for the Valley.
Wow, if you consider 3 hours to Dallas, and 3 hours to Houston, as being 'close' to two major metro cities, a lot of universities might be able to stake that claim. I can guarantee you that no one in either metro area would think of SFA as just a hop, skip, or jump away from our areas ;). Heck, let's count Austin as a third major city that is 'close' by, as it is only 4 hours!
You guys are all missing the most important fact about SFA. Sure its in the middle of nowhere Texas. Sure its 1000 miles away from Valpo, sure its going to add over a hundred thousand dollars a year in travel costs for each University when you combine all the sports teams... The real reason SFA makes sense... Their football stadium is called "HOMER BRYCE Stadium". I mean if that's not a sign I don't know what is.
I'm with wh on this. None of it makes sense unless and until someone leaves. The conference is just fine as is. SFA makes about as much sense as Central Connecticut State, Southern Utah or Centenary.
It doesn't sound like we're going to see a dramatic shift in operating style from the new commissioner and that includes the expansion issue. He's basically left it up to the presidents. He says (rightly) that he is sure that a lot of schools probably look at the Valley and wonder if maybe it is a place they should aspire to go and that the Valley would probably be attractive on the expansion market but his first and foremost loyalty is to the current member institutions. If the presidents feel that it will enhance the league it will happen if not it probably won't or at least it will not be pushed for ardently by the commissioner himself. This is a stance I am more than fine with at this time as long as we can maintain multibid status and succeed in the tournament and there exist no schools that could raise our overall baseline in regard to that goal. The list of schools that would immediately raise that profile is very short a lot of the ones I mentioned as a possible "short list" are somewhat speculative bets on potential but I have no way of quantifying how committed these schools would be to competing\spending at the MVC level and in some cases how the travel would impact them and current league members. It's one thing to raise the budget but if a good bit of that is offset and eaten up by increased travel have you really done yourself any favors competitively? I am still pro expansion but much less ardently so now that we have shown that multiple bids are possible with our current alignment. If that evolves into the new baseline of sorts then I will see much less need to expand the league beyond a very select group of candidates and even then I would have some pause. If the MVC can get to be a 2-3 bid league on its own then our current ten is the way forward. If however a school like say Belmont or Murray State or some other school starts wedging themselves into the at large conversation somewhat regularly and\or kicking butt in March (looking at you ORU) I think we can all agree that we would be doing ourselves a major disservice by not offering them a spot. You can certainly argue that no school has done so regularly enough to warrant the kind of hot commodity status that my previous posts have afforded them but if say ORU makes another run or Belmont somehow gets another at large or very close to it or Murray State wins another tournament game or some other program pops off (South Dakota State breaks through and wins in March Wright State or NKU start dominating the HL the way we did) within the next few years I think we'd have to really take a look at bringing them in. We may disagree on expansion but I think we can both agree that we want the alignment that brings us the strongest league possible and the most opportunities in the postseason possible however that looks. I think the new commissioner (as did his predecessor) shares this view and (hopefully) the MVC presidents do too. Just please don't do anything stupid like adding schools like UTA because it might bring in a handful of students from Texas. That is not the kind of decisionmaking a league like the MVC should be engaging in. I'd argue that that is the kind of decisionmaking we went to the Valley to get away from.
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/same-values-with-a-new-voice/
Just finished getting caught up on the thread and, as an Evansville alum/fan, I think it's interesting that one of the desired criteria would be the ability to win in March. Not sure what that means other than, the Aces aren't exactly achieving that. While I won't ridicule VU quite as much owing to better results over the same amount of time, is it that we expect newcomers to prop up the programs that aren't excelling? I mean, I don't think UE should be thrown out of the Valley, but ... ha-ha ... we'd be kind of like the ugly kid you stick in the closet when company comes to admire all your other handsome offspring.
I don't know if the non-revenue sports are in this conversation but the Valley is a really good baseball conference. So I will keep this at men's BB and let that topic carry its own message.
The interesting changes in how D-1 sports shakes out now that the NCAA has legalized tampering ... whatever on that.
I guess I am still not sold on the need to expand the conference. It seems the only way to do that is to cannibalize some other mid-major conference. I'd be real conservative about that until we see what this absurd '1,500 players in the portal' looks like on Aug. 15.
It will not look like the product you ordered from Amazon.
Well spoken, Johnu1...I agree as it seems that some people feel the MVC has to expand.
Arlington exploring a move
https://twitter.com/tdaragincajuns/status/1433548795808296962?s=21
Bring in SFA. beautiful campus, would fit with the MVFC.
Quote from: usc4valpo on September 02, 2021, 09:18:41 PM
Bring in SFA. beautiful campus, would fit with the MVFC.
No party schools allowed ;)
Nothing wrong with working hard and playing hard... :)
we need more schools with the social experience to balance out those that do not.
BTW- a party school can be great academically - take Wisconsin for example.
Quote from: usc4valpo on September 03, 2021, 10:05:37 AM
we need more schools with the social experience to balance out those that do not.
BTW- a party school can be great academically - take Wisconsin for example.
So now the Badgers are moving to the MVC?
Bad move I say.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/XeLcgh8gT8o0F5SQ8i/giphy.gif)
I seem to recall Playboy ranking Valpo in the top party schools in the 1982-85 era.
Party on, Garth!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well the AAC just imploded with cincy, byu, Houston, and ucf going to the big 12. What do they do now? Can't think of any clear needle movers.
Would WSU come back to the MVC? Would some A10 teams make the move to the AAC? I'd believe the A10 is more stable and may actually be better as a whole (but money talks). Would WSU try to target any of their old friends who are still in the MVC? About to get interesting
Quote from: elephtheria47 on September 10, 2021, 10:34:44 AM
Well the AAC just imploded with cincy, byu, Houston, and ucf going to the big 12. What do they do now? Can't think of any clear needle movers.
Would WSU come back to the MVC? Would some A10 teams make the move to the AAC? I'd believe the A10 is more stable and may actually be better as a whole (but money talks). Would WSU try to target any of their old friends who are still in the MVC? About to get interesting
Their problem is football. That's where the tv money is and where are they going to get football schools? WSU is the only school in the American that doesn't play football.
WSU may be a good candidate for the Big East.
Also, are BYU, Cincy, UCF, and Houston going to accept the offer?
Also, I am surprised Boise State was not included in the discussion. The area is booming and a great opportunity.
Quote from: usc4valpo on September 10, 2021, 11:44:29 AM
WSU may be a good candidate for the Big East.
Also, are BYU, Cincy, UCF, and Houston going to accept the offer?
Also, I am surprised Boise State was not included in the discussion. The area is booming and a great opportunity.
I do not see the Big East having any interest in WSU. The conference emphasizes market size and Wichita is too small.
All four have accepted or will accept. They applied and some have announced they are moving (Houston and BYU, I think).
I am also surprised Boise State was not in the Big 12 discussion. They could have been a more logical choice than UCF, but it is about markets and Orlando is a lot bigger and it will give the Bg 12 visibility in Florida.
Will this affect the better non-football conferences (Big East, MVC, WCC, A10)? Other than BYU and the WCC, I don't foresee any big changes unless someone decides to move up to FBS football. The western WAC teams are probably already on the phone to the WCC people, but I think Seattle might be the only one getting their calls answered. I do think that the AAC is going to make strong moves to get the best Sun Belt programs.
AAC Commissioner: We Will Expand, Remain 'Power 6' in Light of Big 12 Realignment
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/college/2021/09/08/big-12-expansion-aac-mike-aresco-reaction
The AAC will be looking for football schools.
"Though Aresco declined to reveal potential new members, the top options are likely to start with UAB, a rising power in the G5 located in the heart of the Deep South. Football success is an important piece to any new additions, as well as fan support and school resources. Several others may fit that mold, including Air Force, Army, Colorado State, Boise State, North Texas, Charlotte, Coastal Carolina and Arkansas State."
I don't see MVC schools playing any part in the replacement conversation, even secondarily as candidates for programs that move to the AAC.
vu84v2 - Wichita and Omaha are not that different in size.
Also, Boise is a fast growing boom town with a great college fan base better than Cincy and most certainly Houston.
Next you will see West Virginia leave the Big 12 and then Boise State will join.
usc4valpo - Always enjoy your insights and enthusiasm.
Creighton got into the Big East because they were the right type of school that was available at the right time. When the 'Catholic 7' revolted to form their own new Big East, they wanted private schools (preferably Catholic) with strong basketball programs in decent or large markets. Creighton fit the bill, Xavier fit the bill, Butler mostly fit the bill....Wichita State would not have fit that bill. The recent addition of UConn is a bit odd, but they have a large fan base and great programs across all of their sports (other than football).
I think West Virginia would like to leave the Big 12 for the Big Ten, ACC or SEC - but I don't think those conferences have any interest in West Virginia.
Boise to the Big 12? I don't see it. You are probably right about their strong fan base, but the potential from the market size is far less than the four schools that they are adding.
It's great we can disagree and respect and enjoy these discussions, and not act like our recent government.
I give the Big 12 credit for responding proactively and trying to make lemonade out of a lemon situation.
I thought it funny that many sports analysts were predicting a jump by some of the remaining Big 12 schools to the AAC, driven by ESPN's desire to get out of the Big 12 TV deal. That just wasn't going to happen, as the Big 12 still has a better reputation than the AAC.
And... Here... We... Go....
https://csnbbs.com/thread-929725.html
There might be a real chance Belmont and Murray State could be looking for a new home. I hope the MVC is ready!
This is an interesting development. I've long said that all the MVC expansion speculation is crazy talk, especially as it pertains to Belmont and Texas - Arlington. Now I'm not so sure.
Dear MVC,
Get.it.done.
..if not now, then never..
..and that'd be a huge mistake.
Love,
All Missouri Valley fans
UT-A should not even be a discussion for the MVC. They've barely ever won anything (3 conference titles and one bid in 50 years) and they're a non flagship state system school.
Belmont and Murray st if any and I'm sorta on the fence if they are a net positive at a 12 team league.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on September 16, 2021, 11:11:14 PM
UT-A should not even be a discussion for the MVC. They've barely ever won anything (3 conference titles and one bid in 50 years) and they're a non flagship state system school.
Belmont and Murray st if any and I'm sorta on the fence if they are a net positive at a 12 team league.
The most important thing to the MVC is that UT-A brings one of the bigger metro areas into the conference. Yes Nashville would be good to have in conference but DFW is the greater prize. West Kentucky/Paducah/S.E.Missouri/tip of Southern IL just doesn't bring much attention to the conference.
Be careful what you wish for....do we really want to compete in a 12 team league and split the pot 12 ways? The MVC appears to be so solid I wonder if it is worth trying to expand. One would have a tough time finding a better mid-major conference anywhere, including levels of competition, strength in a number of sports, TV contracts and academically. I can't think of any mid-major conference that when they expanded ended up with another set of problems with memberships on the brink year after year namely who may be leaving and where do we look to add back.
Quote from: valpo64 on September 17, 2021, 07:51:47 AM
Be careful what you wish for....do we really want to compete in a 12 team league and split the pot 12 ways? The MVC appears to be so solid I wonder if it is worth trying to expand. One would have a tough time finding a better mid-major conference anywhere, including levels of competition, strength in a number of sports, TV contracts and academically. I can't think of any mid-major conference that when they expanded ended up with another set of problems with memberships on the brink year after year namely who may be leaving and where do we look to add back.
In a word - no. For any given year, only 3 possible outcomes result from adding a team:
1. The new team won't perform at the level necessary to win the conference or earn an at-large - just another also-ran (most likely, by far).
2. The new team wins the league or earns an at-large but merely takes an existing team's spot in the process - no net change in bids
3. The new team wins the league or earns an at-large AND adds to the bid count (least likely by far).
Building on these points, another reason to add teams would be a high likelihood of someone leaving. Unless one or more of the MVC's FCS teams plans to move to BCS (which seems very unlikely), I do not see this happening. The best chance of that happening would be the A10 going after a large market program like Loyola, but the A10 already has too many teams (and none of them are going to a football-oriented conference).
Quote from: wh on September 17, 2021, 10:05:42 AMQuote from: valpo64 on September 17, 2021, 07:51:47 AMBe careful what you wish for....do we really want to compete in a 12 team league and split the pot 12 ways? The MVC appears to be so solid I wonder if it is worth trying to expand. One would have a tough time finding a better mid-major conference anywhere, including levels of competition, strength in a number of sports, TV contracts and academically. I can't think of any mid-major conference that when they expanded ended up with another set of problems with memberships on the brink year after year namely who may be leaving and where do we look to add back.
In a word - no. For any given year, only 3 possible outcomes result from adding a team: 1. The new team won't perform at the level necessary to win the conference or earn an at-large - just another also-ran (most likely, by far). 2. The new team wins the league or earns an at-large but merely takes an existing team's spot in the process - no net change in bids 3. The new team wins the league or earns an at-large AND adds to the bid count (least likely by far).
To me adding teams is less about getting an extra bid, or how much money each team will split. The goal for adding teams should be long term league stability. Once stable leagues are in flux and scrambling to fill gaps. So what happens. They take teams they can vs teams that really add true value. If the Big 12 had acted years ago, maybe they could have gotten an ACC or Pac 12 team to join. Instead they wound up with a bunch of AAC teams (I think they actually added decent teams, but certainly not the marquee names). And maybe if they had done that in advance, Texas and Oklahoma may have stayed.
We seem stable now, but it may only be a matter of time before Loyola jumps ship. Maybe another school gets poached by another conference or has FBS aspirations. So, if an opportunity presents itself to add a quality school, I'd say we jump on it. Otherwise in 2-3 years we will be saying crap we only have 8 teams, who can we take. And all of a sudden the Valley may look a lot less attractive to potential suitors.
Vuny hit the nail on the head.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if we get 2 teams in or 4 teams in. We're not keeping up in an arms race with the P5. Its about league sustainability and right now we are attractive. Go make a power move and be proactive instead of reactive.
Wait until our best program moves on, then what is our bargaining power. The MVC is a mid major league. Get 2, hopefully sometimes 3, bids in. Let's solidify our league and add 2 teams that move the needle.
What might be in the best interest of the MVC may not at all be in the best interest of Valpo. Let's be honest. We have been mired in mediocrity since we joined the MVC. Our highly successful basketball reputation coming in has taken a huge hit. The team last played in the NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Tournament in 2015. Memories of success are fading with each passing year. We desperately need a breakthrough season just to prove we belong in the MVC, let alone begin to restore our formerly proud standing as a mid major power. If besting 9 other programs has proven beyond our reach, the challenge of besting 11 or 13 high quality mid major programs could prove to be an overwhelming task. Unless we get this turned around soon, at some point in the not too distant future our move to the MVC will have proven to be an abject failure. The last thing we should be promoting right now is how we can turn the mountain were climbing into Mt. Everest.
Let's not forget that Valpo went 6th, 9th, 6th and 4th in the first four years in the Horizon League. The MVC is way more competitive than the HL, so let's see how things go a bit longer before we fall into thinking that suddenly Valpo is "mired in mediocrity."
We tried being in a league that some would say was "what's best for Valpo" where we won basically every year and frequently got to the tournament. What did that get us? Screwed out of an at large bid when we couldn't handle our business and absolutely zero tournament wins because we weren't any higher than a 13 seed. Nobody remembers or cares about programs that get to the tournament and lose in the first round. Do you think anyone outside of their fanbase cares that Wichita State had an unexpectedly great season amid all of that turmoil? Nope. That feel good story and AAC championship got completely washed away by losing to the runner up in their former conference in the first four. That's the headline the casual fan takes away. The money and the benefits are in winning and making runs. Remember how Belmont was crying foul last year because they didn't get into even the NIT last year despite leading Division I in wins? How soon we forget that was basically us in 2016 except much worse because we missed a tournament bid with a team that would have made a run. I have no doubt conference affiliation played a role there and if we had posted similar results as an MVC team that year we would have been in and done some serious damage.
We are now in a multibid league that generates tournament units by being competitive and winning in March. This has made Valpo so much money even if Valpo has not yet been a direct participant in it. Not to mention this is the first conference we have been in that has any real sort of TV deal to speak of. Just these two things alone have brought so much money to the University Valpo otherwise would not have. There is virtually nothing that can happen that could ever brand this move as a failure. Even if schools like Missouri State Northern Iowa Illinois State etc. all went FBS to the MAC Sun Belt or what have you and Valpo gets left behind, even if Loyola gets picked up by an even stronger conference the absolute worst case scenario is that we're in a better stronger version of our old conference. This move was a huge win for the university in so many ways. We haven't been competitive but there's no reason to believe we can't ever be competitive whether that's under Lottich (there's still time for him to turn it around) or somebody else but given some of the headscratching losses we have suffered over the years I think our competitiveness problem might have just as much to do with our decision to hire from within instead of conducting a national search as it does with the overall strength and competitiveness of the MVC.
Adding schools like Murray State and Belmont or other similar programs might not necessarily increase the number of bids or even units but it increases the depth of the conference creates more opportunities for meaningful games boosts SOS (even if by a small amount) and might even add to our TV deal because of the intriguing matchups that could result. I want to see Valpo compete against the best teams possible to prove their mettle as thoroughly as possible for whenever they are able to compete so that what happened in 2016 never happens again to us or any other MVC team. Dominating a weaker conference was fun and all but it did not and will not take us where we want to go. Proving ourselves in the MVC will just as it has for Loyola. Moreover, I want whoever the conference representative(s) are to have as many resume building opportunities as possible and to be as competitive as they can be once they get to March. We may not get more units but adding more good quality teams might get us better seeding which can in turn lead to more units because of favorable matchup draws.
Consider the case of Loyola. Loyola has a final four and a sweet 16 in the past 5 years because of good seeding (an 8 and an 11 those years) a favorable first round draw and (especially in the Final 4 year) a little luck which every Cinderella needs. If the best way to get that done is to bring in some outside help in the form of more quality programs so be it. Let iron sharpen iron. Bring on the rising tide to lift all MVC boats. If Murray State and Belmont want in and\or if there are other additions that make the conference better that can be added (Little Rock? Oral Roberts? The Dakotas? NKU? Wright State?) and they are up for the MVC challenge bring 'em on!
The central topic of this post is Men's basketball but I would be remiss if I did not mention the benefits that would arise in other sports by adding truly premier programs in those sports such as Belmont women's basketball Oral Roberts baseball South Dakota State women's basketball or Wright State baseball. There are schools out there that have the potential to make the conference better in more than one sport. Imagine building a conference that is better than the P5s in baseball or volleyball or women's basketball and forcing those schools to use their tremendous resources to counteract the MVC in those sports. That would leave less money for them to dominate so much in Men's basketball and could provide an opening for us to become a regular 2-3 bid league. Or at the very least even if we remain a 1-2 bid league we can enjoy several ranked teams coming to Valpo every year across multiple sports providing high quality competitive opportunities across the entire athletic department which will help recruiting even more and especially if we can win will boost attendance. Either way, we win as a conference as fans and as an athletic department. That alone might be worth splitting some of the tournament cash more ways because it makes the entire department and student athlete experience (which is what is should be all about anyway) better. Even though we are first and foremost a basketball league, the Valley's reputation as "America's Renaissance Conference" which is strong across the board in several sports means a great deal to me and I hope it does to you and to the MVC decisionmakers because it's really special and beautiful to be a part of something so unique.
Speaking of finances, according to this article we spend the second lowest on basketball of any MVC team I think maybe we could do with maybe trying to spend a bit more to become more competitive. Just increasing our budget by $400K (which I recognize is not an insignificant sum for Valpo especially at this time) would take us from 9th in the MVC to a respectable 4th. Money doesn't always mean success but it certainly helps. The teams at or near the top have been competitive and have made and in the case of Loyola and Drake succeeded in the tournament. The point is this: What's good for the MVC IS what's good for Valpo whether Valpo directly benefits from it or not. Indirect benefits are still benefits and if we're not going to be in a position to directly benefit then we should be all for making the indirect benefits as sweet and far reaching as possible. it will just make the direct benefits whenever they come for us that much greater.
https://www.midmajormadness.com/2021/9/10/22663910/wichita-state-big-12-expansion-shockers-aac-american-realignment-candidate-missouri-valley-mvc
The post above could be edited to have paragraphs.
I think it would help with reading it and some good thoughts tremendously.
Missouri valley more competitive, but at the time, Valpo joined I would argue the Horizon was equal to the Valley now. Cleveland Stand won the Horizon, won a game in March Madness, Butler made two final 4's, Wright State was a tough out and UWM still had some Bruce momentum (leftovers) The valley is much better league now, with out question
Anyone who gleaned from my post that I regret leaving the HL is completely missing the point, and dragging the discussion down the wrong rabbit hole in the process. That said, there is one thing sorely missing from the past - pride of accomplishment. WE steered the ship in the HL, WE made the money that other teams benefited from, WE won the championships, WE enhanced the league's image, WE were at the top of mid major polls, WE elevated the league's RPI, WE got the premier TV matchups, WE had the packed houses, WE were the arrogant fan base everyone loved to hate, WE had the best coaching, WE had the national reputation, and WE were the team to beat. And most importantly, WE HAD AN AMAZING FEELING OF ACCOMPLISHMENT AND THE PRIDE THAT GOES WITH IT.
So here we are 4 years later in a better league, and we lost everything we represented - EVERYTHING. We are a nobody. We've accomplished nothing. We've contributed nothing to the league we're in. '1314, so we've made a lot money off of other teams' tournament performances, and you consider that a big positive of being in the MVC? Apparently it's better to hold out a tin cup than make your own way, so long as you make more money begging than earning.
Do you think this is what the Missouri Valley Conference thought they were signing up for? I'll guarantee you it isn't. And how does it feel going from boat captain to boat anchor? Or is it better to be an anchor, because we get to ride on a fancier boat? How does it feel to be the only team in the conference that didn't get a mention in the recent conference podcast preview? And why? Because we're not even important enough to make sure we don't get overlooked. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
So now you want to talk about expansion and what a great thing that would be. Really? We're struggling to become competitive in a 10-team league, and you want to go to 14 "for the sake of league stability?" Do you know who the podcast hosts' dream additions are? Not Belmont and Murray State - try Wichita State and St. Louis. Better yet, imagine all 4. Take the hole we're in now and magnify it by 10. You said it yourself. We don't have the money or the facilities to compete in a league like that - and we don't. This might be a dream come true at the league office, but it would be Valpo's worst nightmare. THAT was the point I was making when I said be careful what you wish for. I believe we can become competitive in the league as it it, hopefully starting this year, but we're also vulnerable to becoming completely irrelevant in a larger league with a pot full of advantages we can't compete with.
We're okay. Teams take some time to get acclimated to a new conference. Loyola, butler, Xavier, etc struggled moving conferences.
We made the championship game in the tournament two years ago. We're showing some signs, although not as fast or big enough that we'd all like and aspire for.
You are who you associate with. Much nicer to be associated with Loyola, MoSt, and MVC versus Cleveland state, green bay, Youngstown, horizon league
I think for the past two years we were the team everyone thought they should beat....but when push came to shove, Valpo held its own and often surprised teams. The MVC is especially strong in baseball and the team, although not the best regular season, was a cinderella tournament team, and one of the last four in the tournament. Being in the MVC is pushing the university to focus on its athletics (they really need a shove). More active student participation and winning teams has a direct impact on enrollment and student engagement. Facilities matter. Hopefully they will address our shortcomings and invest in the future. We do need to get back to driving our own future. We did it once. We should be able to do it again.
But I am not sure expanding the MVC will truly impact anything. I think instability - both conferences and roster- is our new normal.
College basketball isn't what it once was in the glory Homer Drew era. As of this moment, there are 1756 players in the transfer portal. that's up from 1012 the year before. In Bryce's last year there were 800 in the portal and his first year as head coach there were only 577. I know, everybody has faced the same situation but, we have had two of our best leave. We haven't had the time to build a team and my guess is that a small private university traditionally has had to build teams from the ground up versus others more able to rebuild much more quickly.
I doubt anybody in the Valley has added more talent from the transfer portal than Valpo. Now, the time is here--PRODUCE!!!!!!
Quote from: vu72 on September 20, 2021, 08:55:36 AM
College basketball isn't what it once was in the glory Homer Drew era. As of this moment, there are 1756 players in the transfer portal. that's up from 1012 the year before. In Bryce's last year there were 800 in the portal and his first year as head coach there were only 577. I know, everybody has faced the same situation but, we have had two of our best leave. We haven't had the time to build a team and my guess is that a small private university traditionally has had to build teams from the ground up versus others more able to rebuild much more quickly.
I doubt anybody in the Valley has added more talent from the transfer portal than Valpo. Now, the time is here--PRODUCE!!!!!!
I agree with everything you're saying. I'm not disillusioned or disheartened by our first 4 years. I also agree that we have improved our prospects considerably of competing for a championship. That said, if we don't show considerable improvement this year, I think the program needs to go a completely different direction, beginning with a completely new coaching staff, a commitment by the university to upgrade facilities despite its economic woes, etc.
I can't imagine anyone not acknowledging that this is a do or die year, especially the coaches. I am cautiously optimistic that this team will do exciting things. The Valley is packed, but we should gain some respect. I am good being the underdog. Very excited for November.
I'm more excited for this season than the other recent ones. I hope for everyone's sake that we have a healthy season. If we get a healthy season, we will get a sense of what we have to do for the future (extend/get rid of ML). Hoping no covid issues or injury issues where we're still gonna be debating it at the end. We have some talent for sure. Let's go get it done on the court now too.
https://www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-belmont-ovc/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Belmont to MVC. Yay 20-game conference schedule.
Quote from: jtm on September 24, 2021, 10:19:33 AM
https://www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-belmont-ovc/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Belmont to MVC. Yay 20-game conference schedule.
Big news if it's true.
And now this from Murray State:
[tweet]1441432351481884672[/tweet]
Yes yes yes yes yesssssss.
Power move. Nabbing two great programs.
Belmont may be announcing as early as next week.
Worth pointing out the comparisons to Loyola and Butler are not applicable. Those schools have we do not: multiple large dollar donors and unwavering institutional commitment.
[tweet]1438980636468031488[/tweet]
Just looked at Murray St message board to see what I could find. Lots of chatter there. Two pieces I found interesting
A) someone mentioned they turned down a meeting with the MVC earlier this week (before it was known Belmont was going to be joining)
B) there's speculation about joining the AAC and their president was in Dallas, headquarters of the AAC, the last three days.
Seems like they're going to be moving but where? Majority of their board is excited about potentially joining the MVC. Obviously if AAC is a possibility the TV money and contract makes that a no brainer.
Update: the above got me to check with some sources. Murray State is coming as well. Great great news.
Wow. I go on a trip and (half of) the news I have hoped for since 2017 finally breaks! I'm so happy for Belmont and especially for the MVC! This makes the conference better and gets the MVC into a thriving new market. It's a huge win. Now I just hope Murray State is the 12th but I'm guessing football will be an issue there. Can the MVC schools in the MVFC exert enough pressure to get the Racers into the MVFC? Would an agreement that the SL would get the next MVFC invitation (possibly St Thomas) be enough? I saw on the Murray State board that their AD or president was in Dallas recently but no one is sure exactly why. I saw three theories:
1. Murray State is talking to another conference (posters mentioned the AAC) I think this one is extremely unlikely
2. They are talking to donors in the area (possible) or
3. They are talking to the Southland in order to secure a FB-only membership (This is the most likely of the three)
If #3 is the case then I commend Murray State for making a huge commitment to their flagship sport being so willing to join a better basketball league that they are willing to send their football team to Louisiana to get it done. I still hope they can get into the MVFC because that would certainly be better for them.
Getting back to the MVC if the addition is not Murray State the shortlist for me is as follows:
1. Little Rock (only ahead of ORU because they are a public)
2. Oral Roberts
3. Northern Kentucky
4. South Dakota State (but they would probably have to increase their budget in order to get in).
Anyone else and I will feel like the MVC didn't really gain as much as they could have from their expansion. I really hope it's Murray State. They just make too much sense given the geographic footprint and ready made rivalries available with Belmont Evansville and SIU especially.
A great conference just got a lot better!
Don't discount what this does for Women's basketball either. If my memory serves Belmont has had a few seasons recently where they were ranked for at least a taime and just won an NCAA Tournament game last year in women's basketball. Missouri State is obviously the standard bearer in that sport but they just got some competition. I could see women's basketball becoming a prerennial 2-3 bid league there too. Moreover, women's basketball is a major reason why South Dakota State made my shortlist. The conference would become insanely good in that sport.
Murray State put on the full court press hoping to replace Wichita State. Public announcements by their President, articles in the paper promoting their market and proximity to other MVC schools, the whole 9. The Valley is better now than it was then, and they would have a travel partner and familiar foe in Belmont this time around, not to mention that the OVC will soon become a shell of its former self. Rumors that they may not be interested this time make no sense. I'll bet money they're dying to get in again. The league contemplated 11 the last time around. They may not see the urgency to go to 12 just because we do. Good teams will always be looking to get into the MVC. We are holding a lot of cards most other mids aren't.
I sincerely hope we are going to 12 and that Murray State is that 12th team. I hope whatever is holding that up is just something like the need to convene their board of regents or because the Dakotas are being sticks in the mud on the football side because the idea that the MVC would not sit at 11 for Murray State but would do so for Belmont is an unconscionable slap in the face to a terrific and proud program steeped in tradition. It just makes too much sense for both sides not to happen. Does anybody know what's holding it up?
Murray State has/had 0 chance of getting an AAC invite. That is just wishful thinking on behalf of their fanbase.
Hopefully it is true that they and Belmont are coming to the MVC, as this is where both belong!
I have heard it's done, it's just a matter of making it public. May be something legal about getting out, but Murray to MVC is dunzo.
How good is your source, eleptheria? I really hope you're right on Murray. Haven't been this excited since the day we got in. Gotta admit, I'm pretty nervous.
If the Valley gets both Belmont and Murray will the Valley be the BEST Mid-major or will the A-10 or West Coast till claim superiority? Will we be AAC depth wise?
Feel pretty confident about it or wouldn't have shared it. it's just not one person's thought (shared some screenshots) and they write for a national CBB publication so there's multiple points of contact with media, staff, players, etc.. They broke a CBB story just last week and he alerted me a few days before it broke, so there's recent history of being accurate with early information. Of course things can get derailed at anytime before they are completely finalized or published, so will keep an ear out. I'm still nervous too because I wanted this since we joined and it looks to be finally happening. Would be extremely disappointing if it doesn't happen.
Also got a peak of their MVC preview. They have Valpo coming in 6th, AJ Green as POY, Drew Valentine as COY, and Kobe King newcomer of Year. Projects MVC as multiple bid league again with the top 4 (Loy, Drake, NoIA, and MoSt) having NCAAT potential.
QuoteAlso got a peak of their MVC preview. They have Valpo coming in 6th, AJ Green as POY, Drew Valentine as COY, and Kobe King newcomer of Year. Projects MVC as multiple bid league again with the top 4 (Loy, Drake, NoIA, and MoSt) having NCAAT potential.
Well that settles it I guess. Mediocrity is our fate this year.
Quote from: Just Sayin on September 27, 2021, 11:07:39 AM
QuoteAlso got a peak of their MVC preview. They have Valpo coming in 6th, AJ Green as POY, Drew Valentine as COY, and Kobe King newcomer of Year. Projects MVC as multiple bid league again with the top 4 (Loy, Drake, NoIA, and MoSt) having NCAAT potential.
Well that settles it I guess. Mediocrity is our fate this year.
Except for one thing. A combination of a completely reworked roster, D-1 major transfers, and a high profile recruiting class coupled with a lack of past success makes it impossible to assess how good this team will be. Thus, Valpo is placed through process of elimination. Take the good teams you're familiar with and rank them 1 through whatever. Then take the bad teams you're familiar with and rank them 10 through whatever. Wherever those 2 groups groups meet, there's Valpo. It's not only meaningless, it's ridiculous.
I am okay with a preseason 6th. We finished tied for 5th last year. Have us middle of the pack. That's better than at the bottom. Now we prove that we are much higher than that. When you start high, there is no place to go but down. The end of season standings are what really matters.
Wasn't Drake projected to be a Thursday team last year. Certainly bottom 5 if I am remembering correctly. They surprised pretty much everybody and now a year later they are being treated with a lot more respect. I think that should be the goal for us this year. Not surprised at all we would be projected to finish in the bottom half, too much roster turnover to say anything for certain. It is annoying me, however, to see a lot of fans of other MVC fans writing this team off simply because it's comprised of a lot of former highly touted recruits and power 5 transfers. They say that never works out for a team. I would agree if we just added a couple power 5 benchwarmers that never panned out jump on board. Thats not the case though, these guys have all proved themselves. Kobe King was the leading scorer in conference play for Wisconsin, Anderson was a highly respected 6th man in the big 10, Kithier started 14 games for Michigan State. Joe Hedstrom would be the only one that fits the description of not panning out and that may only be because he was injured. Not to mention Kevin Taylor averaged 21 ppg and on efficient shooting at the D2 level. Will he score 21 a game at the D1 level? Probably not, but the hoop is still 10 feet tall and 2 basketballs wide as Gene Hackman would point out. He can score. I also cannot believe Krikke was only a sophomore last year. He was phenomenal. I cannot wait to see what he can do with all these other options around him. He may not touch the ball as much but I think he is going to be even more efficient and he really is fun to watch in the post. I hate to put a jinx on us, but there is almost no possible way we aren't significantly better than we were last year. And that is looking at proven product on the court. In come 3 talents that have proven their skills on a power 5 level. Out goes Daniel Sackey, a MAJOR liability on BOTH ends of the court, and Donovan Clay who, albeit talented, still could not prove to be an efficient scoring option at the MVC level. The improvement in 3 point shooting percentage alone would net us 4 additional wins on last years schedule. I am excited for this team. Will they compete for an MVC championship this year? I wouldn't go that far yet just because there certainly will be some things to sort out with team chemistry, although I like what I am seeing so far. And coaching is another concern. But if Lottich doesn't find a way to screw up this proven offensive talent, I think an MVC championship is within reason. But without answers to those questions, I dont blame journalists for not putting us in the top half. If I had to make my own projection for the league I would have us at 5 with significant upside.
My sarcasm apparently went unnoticed. Preseason rankings are worthless.
Belmont is expected to be the only addition at this time. That is very disappointing if true. This article also said that there's institutional resistance to Murray State. These University Presidents need to get over themselves and do what's best for the conference. You can argue that as a candidate Murray State checks more boxes than Belmont. I hope they rectify this soon because refusing to go to 11 for Murray State but doing it for Belmont is a slap in the face to a great program as I've mentioned before.
https://www.tribstar.com/sports/belmont-set-to-enter-mvc-on-tuesday/article_c8c7e4f4-1fc4-11ec-a24b-f3a63d8670b0.html
I will be disappointed if we stay at 11 and leave Murray State on the table but on the plus side Belmont's announcement is scheduled for tomorrow morning.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442603056986681344
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 27, 2021, 05:43:32 PM
Belmont is expected to be the only addition at this time. That is very disappointing if true. This article also said that there's institutional resistance to Murray State. These University Presidents need to get over themselves and do what's best for the conference. You can argue that as a candidate Murray State checks more boxes than Belmont. I hope they rectify this soon because refusing to go to 11 for Murray State but doing it for Belmont is a slap in the face to a great program as I've mentioned before.
https://www.tribstar.com/sports/belmont-set-to-enter-mvc-on-tuesday/article_c8c7e4f4-1fc4-11ec-a24b-f3a63d8670b0.html
I will be disappointed if we stay at 11 and leave Murray State on the table but on the plus side Belmont's announcement is scheduled for tomorrow morning.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442603056986681344
QuoteMurray State, long mentioned as a possibility, has hurdles to overcome (it would have to find a home for its football program and there is some institutional resistance to Murray inside the MVC), but should still be considered an attractive candidate. The Racers will likely be looking for a move out of the OVC, which is losing its strongest members.
Interesting nugget in the article. I have to think this is academics related. Murray checks the basketball program box, which is the biggest one in my book. Based in the midwest has had recent success.
One thing to keep in mind is now days the unit shares for high Team GPAs is more and more important. There is $ involved for having strong academic sports teams. I'm not sure if that's a factor.
If Murray gets left in the OVC that would be an awful situation for that Athletics Department. The OVC already wasn't that strong outside a few programs. With Belmont and others leaving it becomes Murray and not much else. Also going to the Horizon League wouldn't be strategically smart (no football) and if they are hoping for a MVC lifeline in the next season or two, why would they two buy and exit fees. They are in a really tough spot if the MVC doesn't extend an invite.
Quote from: VU2014 on September 27, 2021, 07:43:34 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on September 27, 2021, 05:43:32 PMBelmont is expected to be the only addition at this time. That is very disappointing if true. This article also said that there's institutional resistance to Murray State. These University Presidents need to get over themselves and do what's best for the conference. You can argue that as a candidate Murray State checks more boxes than Belmont. I hope they rectify this soon because refusing to go to 11 for Murray State but doing it for Belmont is a slap in the face to a great program as I've mentioned before. https://www.tribstar.com/sports/belmont-set-to-enter-mvc-on-tuesday/article_c8c7e4f4-1fc4-11ec-a24b-f3a63d8670b0.html I will be disappointed if we stay at 11 and leave Murray State on the table but on the plus side Belmont's announcement is scheduled for tomorrow morning. https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442603056986681344
QuoteMurray State, long mentioned as a possibility, has hurdles to overcome (it would have to find a home for its football program and there is some institutional resistance to Murray inside the MVC), but should still be considered an attractive candidate. The Racers will likely be looking for a move out of the OVC, which is losing its strongest members.
Interesting nugget in the article. I have to think this is academics related. Murray checks the basketball program box, which is the biggest one in my book. Based in the midwest has had recent success. One thing to keep in mind is now days the unit shares for high Team GPAs is more and more important. There is $ involved for having strong academic sports teams. I'm not sure if that's a factor. If Murray gets left in the OVC that would be an awful situation for that Athletics Department. The OVC already wasn't that strong outside a few programs. With Belmont and others leaving it becomes Murray and not much else. Also going to the Horizon League wouldn't be strategically smart (no football) and if they are hoping for a MVC lifeline in the next season or two, why would they two buy and exit fees. They are in a really tough spot if the MVC doesn't extend an invite.
They had Wichita State in the league for decades and now academics are an issue? Give me a break. Also this is an athletics conference. Why do we care whether a school is high enough in the US News and World Reports rankings? How bad can Murray State's academics honestly be? I mean didn't the MVC vet Oral Roberts awhile back? That's not exactly an academic powerhouse.
Quote from: wh on September 27, 2021, 11:31:01 AM
Quote from: Just Sayin on September 27, 2021, 11:07:39 AM
QuoteAlso got a peak of their MVC preview. They have Valpo coming in 6th, AJ Green as POY, Drew Valentine as COY, and Kobe King newcomer of Year. Projects MVC as multiple bid league again with the top 4 (Loy, Drake, NoIA, and MoSt) having NCAAT potential.
Well that settles it I guess. Mediocrity is our fate this year.
Except for one thing. A combination of a completely reworked roster, D-1 major transfers, and a high profile recruiting class coupled with a lack of past success makes it impossible to assess how good this team will be. Thus, Valpo is placed through process of elimination. Take the good teams you're familiar with and rank them 1 through whatever. Then take the bad teams you're familiar with and rank them 10 through whatever. Wherever those 2 groups groups meet, there's Valpo. It's not only meaningless, it's ridiculous.
Here is what these pundits might really be thinking (or at least should be):
All we do is sit around here and guess what a bunch of little p%&*$s are gonna go and do out there, then we come back <later>, and we complain 'cause they didn't do exactly what we thought they'd do. We don't know. Of course we don't know. We're not in the locker rooms with them. We're not on the <court> with them. We can't look 'em in the eyes and encourage them to be better than they ever thought they were capable of being. We're just... we're just on the outside looking in. Judging them. (modified Roy Kent quote)
Could Murray State seriously go FBS? I really hope we don't lose them to another lesser basketball conference just because of football or university president squabbling.
https://twitter.com/low_madness/status/1442652824807092226
For the record I'm in favor of adding Murray. But if I had to guess what some University Admins are thinking, it has to do with academics. Murray adds another 2 strong or at minimum, interesting games to the schedule. I'm really curious, what the reason is for some schools? Not wanting to split shares 12 ways? Not likely.
Being fussy about Murray joining the conference sounds like something Bradley & Loyola's Admin would pick a fight about. (pure speculation by my part...)
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 27, 2021, 10:36:23 PM
Could Murray State seriously go FBS? I really hope we don't lose them to another lesser basketball conference just because of football or university president squabbling.
https://twitter.com/low_madness/status/1442652824807092226
I've spoke with a few Murray fans and they've told me Basketball is priority number one at that school. So if we were to offer they'd jump at the opportunity over the ASUN invite.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 27, 2021, 08:13:22 PM
They had Wichita State in the league for decades and now academics are an issue? Give me a break.
Speaking of which, don't count Wichita State out. Today's AAC is not the league it was in 2018. WSU is going to be losing a ton of football windfall revenue that was part of their agreement with the AAC. The AAC will undoubtedly take a big hit on NCAA bb tournament revenue sharing, as well. They've lost major markets, and TV revenues will fall off. Last, but not least, the AAC needs football schools right now.
In the meantime, the Valley has elevated its status with multiple bids and deep tournament runs. Adding Belmont is the cherry on top. From an MVC perspective it's a no-brainer. WSU is perennial tournament team, they maintain the public/private balance at 6 each, it gives each team 22 conference games at a time when OOC scheduling has become a nightmare, and 12 teams are easier to schedule than 11.
Here's a pretty interesting article talking about WSU's situation:
Was Wichita State's Valley exit still worth it?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.midmajormadness.com/platform/amp/2021/9/10/22663910/wichita-state-big-12-expansion-shockers-aac-american-realignment-candidate-missouri-valley-mvc
Quote from: wh on September 28, 2021, 05:15:18 AM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 27, 2021, 08:13:22 PM
They had Wichita State in the league for decades and now academics are an issue? Give me a break.
Speaking of which, don't count Wichita State out. Today's AAC is not the league it was in 2018. WSU is going to be losing a ton of football windfall revenue that was part of their agreement with the AAC. The AAC will undoubtedly take a big hit on NCAA bb tournament revenue sharing, as well. They've lost major markets, and TV revenues will fall off. Last, but not least, the AAC needs football schools right now.
In the meantime, the Valley has elevated its status with multiple bids and deep tournament runs. Adding Belmont is the cherry on top. From an MVC perspective it's a no-brainer. WSU is perennial tournament team, they maintain the public/private balance at 6 each, it gives each team 22 conference games at a time when OOC scheduling has become a nightmare, and 12 teams are easier to schedule than 11.
Here's a pretty interesting article talking about WSU's situation:
Was Wichita State's Valley exit still worth it?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.midmajormadness.com/platform/amp/2021/9/10/22663910/wichita-state-big-12-expansion-shockers-aac-american-realignment-candidate-missouri-valley-mvc
I would love to see Wichita State come back to the MVC but I don't see their egos allowing that to ever happen
Let's celebrate the fact that Belmont is joining the MVC. Although the payouts are slightly impacted by adding one more in the denominator and eleven teams is unwieldy from a scheduling perspective, Belmont is value add to the league on so many fronts. Perhaps even more important, it puts the MVC in a much stronger position should one or more teams leave. Imagine if the A-10 or Big East makes a strong push for Loyola and they were to leave the MVC. Without Belmont, this puts the league at nine teams and makes it look weak. With eleven teams with Belmont and the opportunity to add one more, the league is being proactive, bringing in one of the best possible mid-majors to the conference. It also makes it less likely that any current member would leave.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 27, 2021, 08:13:22 PMThey had Wichita State in the league for decades and now academics are an issue? Give me a break.
Actually, academics IS an issue, since 2020 which is AFTER Wichita State left the conference.
https://www.ncaa.org/academic-based-revenue-distribution
I'm so excited for the Belmont addition. IMO it pushes the league a step or two higher and into the regular multi-bid leagues instead of hanging on the fringes depending on the season, with potential of 3 (4?) teams. Teams will get two additional solid games (hopefully we ditch a nonD1 game?) to help their numbers. Also, Belmont will gain from the MVC for when they make the tourney as well. A few of their teams could have done some damage in the tourney but got seeded too low. We're all upset when an IL St or Belmont has a great season and gets snubbed.
11 teams isn't bad. You can still do a 20 game regular conference season where every team gets to play all the teams twice. I like the teams in the MVC and personally i like watching us play both teams twice. Any # above 11 you'd almost have to go into some sort of divisions. It's a great day for the MVC.
The league is split on adding Murray because of academics... SMH...
Do the presidents have any idea how much money adding Murray State brings in from the conference tournament alone? This will enhance the league's image and profile possibly lead to a better TV deal and make all of the member institutions more money. Plus it adds Kentucky to the footprint.
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/1442885758461911041
OK, a few comments on Murray State:
-They have a strong fan base that probably travels better than half of the current MVC.
-Their fan base is not large (but to the first point,, those fans support the team very well). They are in Murray, KY, which has a population of about $35K and it is very rural for about 40 miles around it. Paducah is 45 minutes away - but that is not a big market either. Murray will not provide any substantial power that can leverage better TV deals.
-The academic concerns, if those concerns actually exist, don't make sense. Murray has good academic programs and a commitment to good teaching - I have seen it firsthand. Frankly, I would put Murray on par or better academically than four or five of the current MVC schools (admittedly, this is highly subjective).
According to Father Harry Public\Private balance is a directive to the new commissioner. So the next add has to be a public. So what's the holdup? Do they think they can get Wichita State back or something? That's not going to happen at least until the Big XII finishes expanding once and for all. Wichita State will stay in as long as Memphis and to a lesser extent SMU are in the league if one of them leaves (especially Memphis) we might have a shot at getting them back especially if the Mountain West loses enough basketball quality (They might be losing Air Force and Colorado State with more potentially to follow and as we all know Boise State is still a candidate for the Big XII). The only publics I see that could be worth adding for the MVC that are realistic options outside of Murray State are Little Rock Northern Kentucky South Dakota State and UT-Arlington (Not my choice but the conference loves them I guess for reasons I will never understand) Of these if we can't (Won't) bring Murray aboard I would want Little Rock by a wide margin NKU and South Dakota State bring geographic concerns and with SDSU I'm not sure their budget could compete with the MVC. UT-Arlington is far away and bad at basketball. Hard pass. Murray State is by far and away the best choice and I hope our presidents are smart enough to see that and bring them in.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442930504609656833?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1442930504609656833%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
Also according to the top post in this page of the thread I have linked below, the academic argument is bunk. They actually have tougher admissions standards than several MVC institutions including Valpo.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-930417-page-10.html
Another post on this page (I hope to God it's just message board speculation) says we might be considering IUPUI? I think I might be sick if that happens. That would be even worse than adding Milwaukee.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 28, 2021, 03:45:28 PM
According to Father Harry Public\Private balance is a directive to the new commissioner. So the next add has to be a public. So what's the holdup? Do they think they can get Wichita State back or something? That's not going to happen at least until the Big XII finishes expanding once and for all. Wichita State will stay in as long as Memphis and to a lesser extent SMU are in the league if one of them leaves (especially Memphis) we might have a shot at getting them back especially if the Mountain West loses enough basketball quality (They might be losing Air Force and Colorado State with more potentially to follow and as we all know Boise State is still a candidate for the Big XII). The only publics I see that could be worth adding for the MVC that are realistic options outside of Murray State are Little Rock Northern Kentucky South Dakota State and UT-Arlington (Not my choice but the conference loves them I guess for reasons I will never understand) Of these if we can't (Won't) bring Murray aboard I would want Little Rock by a wide margin NKU and South Dakota State bring geographic concerns and with SDSU I'm not sure their budget could compete with the MVC. UT-Arlington is far away and bad at basketball. Hard pass. Murray State is by far and away the best choice and I hope our presidents are smart enough to see that and bring them in.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442930504609656833?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1442930504609656833%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
If, for some reason Murray was passed on, then why not UIC? great academics and another Chicago school.
Quote from: vu72 on September 28, 2021, 04:31:38 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on September 28, 2021, 03:45:28 PMAccording to Father Harry Public\Private balance is a directive to the new commissioner. So the next add has to be a public. So what's the holdup? Do they think they can get Wichita State back or something? That's not going to happen at least until the Big XII finishes expanding once and for all. Wichita State will stay in as long as Memphis and to a lesser extent SMU are in the league if one of them leaves (especially Memphis) we might have a shot at getting them back especially if the Mountain West loses enough basketball quality (They might be losing Air Force and Colorado State with more potentially to follow and as we all know Boise State is still a candidate for the Big XII). The only publics I see that could be worth adding for the MVC that are realistic options outside of Murray State are Little Rock Northern Kentucky South Dakota State and UT-Arlington (Not my choice but the conference loves them I guess for reasons I will never understand) Of these if we can't (Won't) bring Murray aboard I would want Little Rock by a wide margin NKU and South Dakota State bring geographic concerns and with SDSU I'm not sure their budget could compete with the MVC. UT-Arlington is far away and bad at basketball. Hard pass. Murray State is by far and away the best choice and I hope our presidents are smart enough to see that and bring them in. https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442930504609656833?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1442930504609656833%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
If, for some reason Murray was passed on, then why not UIC? great academics and another Chicago school.
Because they suck at everything but baseball?
Sounds like there will be another move. We're not sure who it is. Hopefully it's Murray State. But this article mentions Little Rock UT-Arlington Northern Kentucky Milwaukee Denver and others.
https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2021/09/28/belmont-bruins-missouri-valley-conference-missouri-state-ohio-nashville-basketball/5895062001/
I think calling Murray State a logical next step seems to suggest that they MIGHT be the first choice? I hope so.
Will it take Belmont as long as us to ramp up in basketball?
Adding IUPUI would be insane. No way. That has to be just someone throwing a Names at the wall and hoping it sticks.
Quote from: Chairback on September 28, 2021, 06:51:49 PM
Will it take Belmont as long as us to ramp up in basketball?
I haven't seen their roster makeup. It really depends on the timing of the upperclassman. Many of Valpo's Horizon League Teams were better than the Teams we've ran out there the last 4 years. Timing is everything. If Rowdy and AP's Junior/Senior Teams were coming into the Valley we would have had more early success. Valpo also lost JFL which really hurt but we may have won with the Transfer market this year with our incoming Transfers. D1 basketball recruiting and the whole landscape is so different these days.
Quote from: Chairback on September 28, 2021, 06:51:49 PMWill it take Belmont as long as us to ramp up in basketball?
I'll say no. They'll likely do it quicker. They have more stability in coaching than we did entering the Valley and they have better facilities as well as a better location. How much quicker depends on timing as VU2014 said but I have a feeling they'll be a consistent contender within 5 years.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 28, 2021, 04:04:42 PM
Also according to the top post in this page of the thread I have linked below, the academic argument is bunk. They actually have tougher admissions standards than several MVC institutions including Valpo.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-930417-page-10.html
Another post on this page (I hope to God it's just message board speculation) says we might be considering IUPUI? I think I might be sick if that happens. That would be even worse than adding Milwaukee.
I don't think academic considerations like admission standards and SAT scores have any bearing on anything. What the NCAA looks at is APR (Academic Progress Rate). I looked at Murray's for the past several years. They look pretty average to me - no problem years that I could tell. That tells me it isn't about academics.
That said, 10 university presidents took a vote and decided against MSU for some reason. I think we might want to consider that maybe they know what they're doing. It is just possible that that's the case.
Are you talking about the vote in 2017? Because to my knowledge there has been no vote on Murray State this time. We'll see who #12 is before we judge whether they know what they're doing or not. I mean what could it be? If it's not academics then why are they reluctant to add them? Going for markets works if you find an invested (usually private) school like Loyola and Belmont but it won't by adding Milwaukee or UIC and I want to see Arlington show a pulse in basketball before I consider them for expansion. Do you want to fly all our programs to DFW for a bad program? I sure don't. NKU MIGHT be okay but I'd still rather have Murray. The prowess on the court is just too much to ignore. We all need to be reminded that basketball is and should be the driver here.
Meanwhile if you want a good video on why we should all be excited that Belmont is coming and also an good outline for and against potential MVC expansion candidates here's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3en4npeWKZ4
The amount of data and detail in that video is amazing. I'm going to have to screenshot a lot of the slides as he moves fast, particularly that slide at the 12:00.
Great find. Thanks for sharing. I love the coverage this league gets.
Quote from: may know on September 28, 2021, 08:08:31 PMThe amount of data and detail in that video is amazing. I'm going to have to screenshot a lot of the slides as he moves fast, particularly that slide at the 12:00. Great find. Thanks for sharing. I love the coverage this league gets.
You're welcome. This channel isn't MVC specific though. He's just really good at realignment research. He does good videos no matter the topic no matter the school no matter the conference.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 28, 2021, 07:58:15 PM
Are you talking about the vote in 2017? Because to my knowledge there has been no vote on Murray State this time. We'll see who #12 is before we judge whether they know what they're doing or not. I mean what could it be? If it's not academics then why are they reluctant to add them? Going for markets works if you find an invested (usually private) school like Loyola and Belmont but it won't by adding Milwaukee or UIC and I want to see Arlington show a pulse in basketball before I consider them for expansion. Do you want to fly all our programs to DFW for a bad program? I sure don't. NKU MIGHT be okay but I'd still rather have Murray. The prowess on the court is just too much to ignore. We all need to be reminded that basketball is and should be the driver here.
Meanwhile if you want a good video on why we should all be excited that Belmont is coming and also an good outline for and against potential MVC expansion candidates here's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3en4npeWKZ4
I thought you were upset because they voted them down. If they didn't vote them down, what are you upset about? Maybe they'll add them tomorrow, or next week, or next month. What am I missing?
Quote from: wh on September 28, 2021, 09:13:02 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on September 28, 2021, 07:58:15 PMAre you talking about the vote in 2017? Because to my knowledge there has been no vote on Murray State this time. We'll see who #12 is before we judge whether they know what they're doing or not. I mean what could it be? If it's not academics then why are they reluctant to add them? Going for markets works if you find an invested (usually private) school like Loyola and Belmont but it won't by adding Milwaukee or UIC and I want to see Arlington show a pulse in basketball before I consider them for expansion. Do you want to fly all our programs to DFW for a bad program? I sure don't. NKU MIGHT be okay but I'd still rather have Murray. The prowess on the court is just too much to ignore. We all need to be reminded that basketball is and should be the driver here. Meanwhile if you want a good video on why we should all be excited that Belmont is coming and also an good outline for and against potential MVC expansion candidates here's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3en4npeWKZ4
I thought you were upset because they voted them down. If they didn't vote them down, what are you upset about? Maybe they'll add them tomorrow, or next week, or next month. What am I missing?
Because I'm impatient. They make the league better and that's what I want to see. I want this to be the strongest league it can possibly be. I wanted them in alongside us in 2017. When they went on to win a tournament game in the meantime while we had kind of a lean year in 2019 (Bradley got in as a 15 seed) I became even more impatient. When Northern Iowa would have missed the tournament in 2020 despite having an at large caliber resume I grew more impatient still. Then we finally broke through and got multiple bids which made me relax a bit Until the instability in the OVC put Belmont and Murray State back in play. I just want this to happen now not later. It helps the league and that's a good thing. Some of the speculation about football being a holdup or the lack of a market Murray State has or the academic concerns even though they're BS make me worried that we're gonna pass on them and bring in some crappy program just because it has better academics or is in a bigger market. I don't want that. I want quality basketball schools. I don't care if they're public private big city small town in the footprint or a bit outside. I want the MVC to get better because that's good for all of the member institutions. And there is no better realistic potential addition out there than Murray State. They are a top 50 program ALL-TIME they would have the most tournament appearances by far of any MVC program and middle of the pack in all time wins and we're seriously squabbling about market and academics when those concerns are unfounded anyway? The whole thing seems ridiculous to me for an athletics league. When you're a conference fighting for the last few at large bids and you have a chance to add a top 50 all time program you add them joyfully gleefully and gratefully, at least in my opinion. You don't let factors that have not affected them or the idea that they aren't an R1 or top 300 university stand in your way. It's not like they're a podunk community college in constant APR trouble. They aren't Belmont or UIC or Milwaukee academically but again why should that matter when this league is about athletic success first and foremost especially when Murray State's academics aren't even that bad?
So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that.
You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC.
Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.
Quote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 11:53:03 AMMurray State
I agree... there is a lot more to consider than "are they good at basketball". We know the answer to that, and yes, for our selfish reasons, it would make the basketball conference better talent wise.
But the other factors can't just be ignored. For one, they are <100 miles away from three other schools in conference. That's not exactly expanding the conference footprint. I'm not one that says market size is all that important, but the bigger picture would suggest there is value is reaching new markets.
I am happy we added Belmont. I would have been happy if we added Murray State too. But there very well could be other/better long term options for the conference. If they sat on their hands and did nothing I would think it a mistake. But the fact they acted and added Belmont tells me they are being proactive. I am sure another move will be made. Maybe not this year, but there are multiple options I could see making sense other than just Murray State.
Quote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 11:53:03 AM
So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that.
You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC.
Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.
A conference can certainly function with 11 teams - the Big East has 11 teams and that is over a much wider geographic footprint. The only negative with 11 teams is that your travel costs go up a bit (from reduced effects of the travel partner model).
Quote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 11:53:03 AM
So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that.
You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC.
Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.
Your points are well-taken. I only ask what possible prize could be out there that is greater than Murray State?
.648 all time winning percentage
31 all time 20 win seasons
17 NCAA Tournament appearances (Would be most of any MVC member)
14 all Americans (including two within the last 10 years Isaiah Canaan Ja Morant)
4 NCAA Tournament wins (More than Evansville Belmont Missouri State Illinois State and Valpo one behind UNI and Indiana State two behind Drake and SIU)
In a 2005 article Street&Smith's ranked Murray State as the 52nd best basketball program of all time. In 2008, ESPN ranked them as the 30th best and the highest of the true mid majors.
Street and Smith's Article:
https://weberstatesports.com/news/2005/2/3/1256671.aspx
ESPN article:
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=3493497
Since these are dated pieces I will fill you in on what they've done since 2010:
2 all Americans (Canaan and Morant)
3 NBA Draftees Canaan Morant and Cameron Payne
2 NBA lottery picks (Morant Payne)
1 NBA Rookie of the Year (Morant)
2 seasons ranked in top 25 reaching as high as #7 in 2012 The other one was a #24 ranking in 14-15
4 NCAA Tournament Appearances
3 NCAA Tournament wins (2010 2012 2019) I know this is woulda coulda shoulda but they lost by two in 2010 to eventual runner up Butler. Had that game gone differently who knows how far Murray State would have gone?
Oh and a 2020 list by CBS Sports has them now as the 44th best program of all time
https://goracers.com/news/2020/11/18/mens-basketball-racers-ranked-44th-in-top-68-all-time-college-basketball-programs-by-cbs-sports.aspx
Is there a single realistic expansion candidate for the MVC that can claim even a fraction of this? The Racers are a prize as big or greater than Belmont markets or academics be darned. So yes, even despite the addition of Belmont which is a terrific addition and one that should be praised and celebrated leaving Murray State out in the cold for another conference to potentially grab would be a failure of massive proportions by the MVC.
And I didn't even mention their well-traveled fan base that will pack Arch Madness and bring even more life attention and money to the event and by extension every conference member. Or the ready made rivalries or the potential for even more TV games to improve subsequent media deals all of which Murray State is capable of bringing or the fact that they are working on improving their facilities to compete at a higher level. Also the optics of not being willing to stay at 11 for awhile for Murray State but being willing to do so for Belmont in light of all of this information are simply horrible.
Add Murray State. They belong.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 29, 2021, 05:12:55 PMQuote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 11:53:03 AMSo, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that. You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC. Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.
Your points are well-taken. I only ask what possible prize could be out there that is greater than Murray State? .648 all time winning percentage 31 all time 20 win seasons 17 NCAA Tournament appearances (Would be most of any MVC member) 14 all Americans (including two within the last 10 years Isaiah Canaan Ja Morant) 4 NCAA Tournament wins (More than Evansville Belmont Missouri State Illinois State and Valpo one behind UNI and Indiana State two behind Drake and SIU) In a 2005 article Street&Smith's ranked Murray State as the 52nd best basketball program of all time. In 2008, ESPN ranked them as the 30th best and the highest of the true mid majors. Street and Smith's Article: https://weberstatesports.com/news/2005/2/3/1256671.aspx ESPN article: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=3493497 Since these are dated pieces I will fill you in on what they've done since 2010: 2 all Americans (Canaan and Morant) 3 NBA Draftees Canaan Morant and Cameron Payne 2 NBA lottery picks (Morant Payne) 1 NBA Rookie of the Year (Morant) 2 seasons ranked in top 25 reaching as high as #7 in 2012 The other one was a #24 ranking in 14-15 4 NCAA Tournament Appearances 3 NCAA Tournament wins (2010 2012 2019) I know this is woulda coulda shoulda but they lost by two in 2010 to eventual runner up Butler. Had that game gone differently who knows how far Murray State would have gone? Oh and a 2020 list by CBS Sports has them now as the 44th best program of all time https://goracers.com/news/2020/11/18/mens-basketball-racers-ranked-44th-in-top-68-all-time-college-basketball-programs-by-cbs-sports.aspx Is there a single realistic expansion candidate for the MVC that can claim even a fraction of this? The Racers are a prize as big or greater than Belmont markets or academics be darned. So yes, even despite the addition of Belmont which is a terrific addition and one that should be praised leaving Murray State out in the cold for another conference to potentially grab would be a failure of massive proportions by the MVC. And I didn't even mention their well-traveled fan base that will pack Arch Madness and bring even more life attention and money to the event and by extension every conference member. Or the ready made rivalries or the potential for even more TV games to improve subsequent media deals all of which Murray State is capable of bringing or the fact that they are working on improving their facilities to compete at a higher level. Add Murray State. They belong.
To WH's point and my previous one, this is all 100% accurate but 100% basketball related. The University presidents have a wider view of who to invite to their conference than just are they good at basketball (which yes, they check a lot of boxes there).
Quote from: vuny98 on September 29, 2021, 05:35:29 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 29, 2021, 05:12:55 PMQuote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 11:53:03 AMSo, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that. You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC. Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.
Your points are well-taken. I only ask what possible prize could be out there that is greater than Murray State? .648 all time winning percentage 31 all time 20 win seasons 17 NCAA Tournament appearances (Would be most of any MVC member) 14 all Americans (including two within the last 10 years Isaiah Canaan Ja Morant) 4 NCAA Tournament wins (More than Evansville Belmont Missouri State Illinois State and Valpo one behind UNI and Indiana State two behind Drake and SIU) In a 2005 article Street&Smith's ranked Murray State as the 52nd best basketball program of all time. In 2008, ESPN ranked them as the 30th best and the highest of the true mid majors. Street and Smith's Article: https://weberstatesports.com/news/2005/2/3/1256671.aspx ESPN article: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=3493497 Since these are dated pieces I will fill you in on what they've done since 2010: 2 all Americans (Canaan and Morant) 3 NBA Draftees Canaan Morant and Cameron Payne 2 NBA lottery picks (Morant Payne) 1 NBA Rookie of the Year (Morant) 2 seasons ranked in top 25 reaching as high as #7 in 2012 The other one was a #24 ranking in 14-15 4 NCAA Tournament Appearances 3 NCAA Tournament wins (2010 2012 2019) I know this is woulda coulda shoulda but they lost by two in 2010 to eventual runner up Butler. Had that game gone differently who knows how far Murray State would have gone? Oh and a 2020 list by CBS Sports has them now as the 44th best program of all time https://goracers.com/news/2020/11/18/mens-basketball-racers-ranked-44th-in-top-68-all-time-college-basketball-programs-by-cbs-sports.aspx Is there a single realistic expansion candidate for the MVC that can claim even a fraction of this? The Racers are a prize as big or greater than Belmont markets or academics be darned. So yes, even despite the addition of Belmont which is a terrific addition and one that should be praised leaving Murray State out in the cold for another conference to potentially grab would be a failure of massive proportions by the MVC. And I didn't even mention their well-traveled fan base that will pack Arch Madness and bring even more life attention and money to the event and by extension every conference member. Or the ready made rivalries or the potential for even more TV games to improve subsequent media deals all of which Murray State is capable of bringing or the fact that they are working on improving their facilities to compete at a higher level. Add Murray State. They belong.
To WH's point and my previous one, this is all 100% accurate but 100% basketball related. The University presidents have a wider view of who to invite to their conference than just are they good at basketball (which yes, they check a lot of boxes there).
This.
To vuny98's "100% accurate..." comment let me add "and impressively articulated." As to the topic, let me repeat that I'm not saying you're wrong or the Presidents are right. Time will tell. I am willing, however, to give them a lot of leeway. I think they've demonstrated they deserve that level of consideration, given their 3 selections to date since Creighton and Wichita State left.
Quote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 06:09:03 PMQuote from: vuny98 on September 29, 2021, 05:35:29 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on September 29, 2021, 05:12:55 PMQuote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 11:53:03 AMSo, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that. You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC. Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.
Your points are well-taken. I only ask what possible prize could be out there that is greater than Murray State? .648 all time winning percentage 31 all time 20 win seasons 17 NCAA Tournament appearances (Would be most of any MVC member) 14 all Americans (including two within the last 10 years Isaiah Canaan Ja Morant) 4 NCAA Tournament wins (More than Evansville Belmont Missouri State Illinois State and Valpo one behind UNI and Indiana State two behind Drake and SIU) In a 2005 article Street&Smith's ranked Murray State as the 52nd best basketball program of all time. In 2008, ESPN ranked them as the 30th best and the highest of the true mid majors. Street and Smith's Article: https://weberstatesports.com/news/2005/2/3/1256671.aspx ESPN article: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=3493497 Since these are dated pieces I will fill you in on what they've done since 2010: 2 all Americans (Canaan and Morant) 3 NBA Draftees Canaan Morant and Cameron Payne 2 NBA lottery picks (Morant Payne) 1 NBA Rookie of the Year (Morant) 2 seasons ranked in top 25 reaching as high as #7 in 2012 The other one was a #24 ranking in 14-15 4 NCAA Tournament Appearances 3 NCAA Tournament wins (2010 2012 2019) I know this is woulda coulda shoulda but they lost by two in 2010 to eventual runner up Butler. Had that game gone differently who knows how far Murray State would have gone? Oh and a 2020 list by CBS Sports has them now as the 44th best program of all time https://goracers.com/news/2020/11/18/mens-basketball-racers-ranked-44th-in-top-68-all-time-college-basketball-programs-by-cbs-sports.aspx Is there a single realistic expansion candidate for the MVC that can claim even a fraction of this? The Racers are a prize as big or greater than Belmont markets or academics be darned. So yes, even despite the addition of Belmont which is a terrific addition and one that should be praised leaving Murray State out in the cold for another conference to potentially grab would be a failure of massive proportions by the MVC. And I didn't even mention their well-traveled fan base that will pack Arch Madness and bring even more life attention and money to the event and by extension every conference member. Or the ready made rivalries or the potential for even more TV games to improve subsequent media deals all of which Murray State is capable of bringing or the fact that they are working on improving their facilities to compete at a higher level. Add Murray State. They belong.
To WH's point and my previous one, this is all 100% accurate but 100% basketball related. The University presidents have a wider view of who to invite to their conference than just are they good at basketball (which yes, they check a lot of boxes there).
This. To vuny98's "100% accurate..." comment let me add "and impressively articulated." As to the topic, let me repeat that I'm not saying you're wrong or the Presidents are right. Time will tell. I am willing, however, to give them a lot of leeway. I think they've demonstrated they deserve that level of consideration, given their 3 selections to date since Creighton and Wichita State left.
They have. That is a fair statement. Point taken. I get that presidents and I as a fan have different priorities but I just don't care that much if adding a school like Milwaukee or UT-Arlington brings in a handful of additional students when most of that benefit would be eaten up by splitting tournament monies more ways and by travel especially in the case of Arlington. I want basketball power first and foremost because I know that another way to increase enrollment is to win NCAA Tournament games. Making the conference better and preparing our teams better to do that will accomplish far more than adding a school nobody cares about in a big market (again especially true for Arlington). Arlington has the investment but lacks the tradition Milwaukee has the tradition but lacks the investment. Milwaukee had good fan support but it collapsed amid a crowded sports scene when the program went through a rough stretch. Maybe an MVC invite could rebuild that but I'm not willing to take that chance when there is an absolute slam dunk all time great (probably) ready to compete basketball program right in our footprint asking for an invite. That is far more interesting to me than the maybe of an Arlington or a Milwaukee. I want the known quality that is Murray State. If we're going to roll the dice on a market school I'd rather have Northern Kentucky but again it just seems shortsighted to me given the character of the league to pass on a known quantity for a maybe.
Another thing to consider (Even though Commissioner Jackson says he is not aware of anyone potentially leaving the Valley) is that we need to be thinking basketball power first second and third to make our basketball league too good to leave. There have been whispers especially out of Missouri State that they might want to try FBS and while if they are intent on doing so there is probably not a lot we can do to dissuade them we need to try to make our league so attractive that they and other programs wouldn't want to leave even if they had an opportunity. Our league is great now but it wouldn't be so great if Missouri State and possibly Illinois State and Northern Iowa all bolted for FBS. We need to get the best programs we can while we're in a position of strength because with the shifting dynamics we may not be forever.
Not saying I agree with them, but the latest March to the Arch podcast lays out several reasons Murray may not be the best choice, at least at this time.
Quote from: FWalum on September 29, 2021, 10:33:32 PMNot saying I agree with them, but the latest March to the Arch podcast lays out several reasons Murray may not be the best choice, at least at this time.
The dude beating the counterargument drum is a huge SIU homer and is worried about SIU losing status and enrollment by having a second team right in their market. I don't really put much stock in his claims in light of his bias.
The MVC isn't finished expanding
https://twitter.com/drakedawgs/status/1443588276279906309?s=21
https://twitter.com/clifsmart/status/1442879352048340999?s=21
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the March to the Arch guys were the same ones talking about SLU and Wichita earlier. If so, I would not consider them knowledgeable on realignment.
Also, I recall the SIU homer disliking Murray in past years.
Welcome Murray State !
The Missouri Valley Conference might expand...into Texas?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-sun-belt-ut-arlington-belmont-cleveland-state/amp/
This article has made the rounds before, but just now is the first time I have looked at it in depth. The author went to great pains to find out if the league has had any discussion with Texas - Arlington, and I don't think there's much doubt they have - possibly more than we know. Where I wrote off this possibly as silly and probably no truth to it, I now feel there is probably a lot of truth to it, plus I no longer feel the notion is silly, at all. In fact, I'm actually intrigued by it and feel it deserves serious consideration as the MVC's next move.
Quote from: wh on September 30, 2021, 08:42:17 PMThe Missouri Valley Conference might expand...into Texas? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-sun-belt-ut-arlington-belmont-cleveland-state/amp/ This article has made the rounds before, but just now is the first time I have looked at it in depth. The author went to great pains to find out if the league has had any discussion with Texas - Arlington, and I don't think there's much doubt they have - possibly more than we know. Where I wrote off this possibly as silly and probably no truth to it, I now feel there is probably a lot of truth to it, plus I no longer feel the notion is silly, at all. In fact, I'm actually intrigued by it and feel it deserves serious consideration as the MVC's next move.
They'd be a terrific add if only their program wasn't terrible with absolutely no tradition. Moreover they would ruin the distinction we own as a conference of being one of seven conferences that has had every member win at least one tournament game. I'm really hoping the Murray State rumor is true. That is the way to go right now. Arlington can come later if they show a pulse in basketball. Until then, super hard pass. The market is appealing but not much else. Adding Arlington is adding just to add and we shouldn't be in that business. Nobody wants to fly their programs to Texas to visit a bad deadweight program. When they get better they can come aboard but not before. Don't compare them to Loyola. Loyola had tradition before they hit the doldrums. Arlington has none. I want to see more than promises to invest to invite a program with no tradition.
https://twitter.com/kysportsradio/status/1443741393730646023?s=21
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 30, 2021, 08:47:11 PM
Quote from: wh on September 30, 2021, 08:42:17 PMThe Missouri Valley Conference might expand...into Texas? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-sun-belt-ut-arlington-belmont-cleveland-state/amp/ This article has made the rounds before, but just now is the first time I have looked at it in depth. The author went to great pains to find out if the league has had any discussion with Texas - Arlington, and I don't think there's much doubt they have - possibly more than we know. Where I wrote off this possibly as silly and probably no truth to it, I now feel there is probably a lot of truth to it, plus I no longer feel the notion is silly, at all. In fact, I'm actually intrigued by it and feel it deserves serious consideration as the MVC's next move.
They'd be a terrific add if only their program wasn't terrible with absolutely no tradition. Moreover they would ruin the distinction we own as a conference of being one of seven conferences that has had every member win at least one tournament game. I'm really hoping the Murray State rumor is true. That is the way to go right now. Arlington can come later if they show a pulse in basketball. Until then, super hard pass. The market is appealing but not much else. Adding Arlington is adding just to add and we shouldn't be in that business. Nobody wants to fly their programs to Texas to visit a bad deadweight program. When they get better they can come aboard but not before. Don't compare them to Loyola. Loyola had tradition before they hit the doldrums. Arlington has none. I want to see more than promises to invest to invite a program with no tradition.
Don't misunderstand. Murray State is still my first choice.
eleptheria's source looking good.
I wish we had more than this tweet to go on. Hopefully more will come out tomorrow. Surprised we haven't heard about a BOR meeting at Murray State or anything of the sort. Or any corroboration from other outlets\sources but I suppose that tweet came out pretty late in the day for any of that. Hopefully we'll hear something in the morning\early afternoon.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 30, 2021, 11:26:27 PM
I wish we had more than this tweet to go on. Hopefully more will come out tomorrow. Surprised we haven't heard about a BOR meeting at Murray State or anything of the sort. Or any corroboration from other outlets\sources but I suppose that tweet came out pretty late in the day for any of that. Hopefully we'll hear something in the morning\early afternoon.
Hypothetically, if we were to go to 14. Who would be the slam dunk adds?
I'm thinking there are really only 2: SLU and Wichita State. Both are extremely unlikely.
I wouldn't expand beyond 12 unless it was such an obvious add from a basketball, regional, academic, and potential add. Not sure I see anyone out there after Murray as of right now. Curious what others think.
Quote from: VU2014 on September 30, 2021, 11:38:51 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on September 30, 2021, 11:26:27 PMI wish we had more than this tweet to go on. Hopefully more will come out tomorrow. Surprised we haven't heard about a BOR meeting at Murray State or anything of the sort. Or any corroboration from other outlets\sources but I suppose that tweet came out pretty late in the day for any of that. Hopefully we'll hear something in the morning\early afternoon.
Hypothetically, if we were to go to 14. Who would be the slam dunk adds? I'm think there are really only 2: SLU and Wichita State. Both are extremely unlikely. I wouldn't expand beyond 12 unless it was such an obvious add from a basketball, regional, academic, and potential add. Not sure I see out there after Murray as of right now.
I agree that SLU and WSU would be the ones we would target if we could get them (we won't be able to) But I've actually thought about this and came up with two categories a shortlist of schools I think might merit consideration right now (Not saying any of these are must adds necessarily) and a watchlist of schools that could potentially grow into Valley level contributors.
Shortlist (only realistic candidates so No SLU No WSU No Dayton)
Oral Roberts (4 all time tournament wins Good market Good baseball but not a great academic school and not much pull in Tulsa If they make another run next year though They might actually get in Improving facilities
Northern Kentucky Good market and facilities Standard bearer (alongside Wright State) in HL Not sure how much growth potential is left but would likely be my choice for a public add unless Milwaukee revives its program or South Dakota State improves its budget
South Dakota State State flagship solid overall department Good women's basketball Threat to win tournament games every year (Applies to NKU as well) But small state Not a huge population center\recruiting area
Little Rock 2 All time tournament wins Would benefit a lot joining a basketball conference with a tighter footprint Brings new market in growing area Program is inconsistent though which gives me some pause.
Watchlist:
Milwaukee (3 all time tournament wins Big market good academics but bad program\fan support recently)
UIC Big market and good academics but really bad program and redundant with Loyola
Wright State Solid overall athletic department Good budget Decent market but limited share in that market but finances are a mess and they are fairly well out of the footprint (If they ever dropped out of D1 I would LOVE to get their baseball or volleyball team if they wanted to do one sport in D1 though)
North Dakota State Solid overall department State flagship but not much overall growth potential Smallish basketball budtet
St Thomas Good endowment and academics good market but too new
Bellarmine See: St Thomas and honestly they are less appealing than St Thomas in almost every way
Lipscomb Great endowment Not much tradition in basketball Redundant with Belmont
Arlington Good Market and academics Rapidly growing Good recruiting area Stated commitment to improve Bad basketball program Not much pull within market Would be on the shortlist if they got better though
Just saw this a little while ago and it got me thinking: Now a Murray in hand is worth two Wichitas in the bush BUT... I wouldn't fully count out a return of the Shockers if this comes to pass (especially if the Big XII goes to 16 taking both Memphis and SMU (as well as USF) from the American. Would Wichita State want to stay in an AAC that loses Cincinnati Houston Memphis SMU UCF and USF (I know those latter two aren't a huge loss in basketball but losing the Florida footprint sure is. Would they choose a Mountain West that is without Boise State (and possibly Colorado State and Air Force) in that scenario? They would if Gonzaga is coming too but would Gonzaga still want the Mountain West without Colorado State Air Force and Boise State two of which are solid basketball schools? Would Colorado State Air Force UAB (the current rumored AAC adds and whatever else the AAC adds be enough to keep them around? I'm not calling it likely but if the Big XII goes all the way to 16 as this video suggests is possible Wichita State might be left with no choice but to return especially if the MVC can establish itself as a 2-3 bid league with Murray and Belmont in the fold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bs0aPrAzSs
Conference NET's '20-21:
• AAC 7
• A-10 9
• MVC 11
Absent Houston, Cincinnati, C. Florida, and Wichita State, the AAC's NET would drop significantly. With the addition of Belmont, Murray State, and Wichita State, I could see the MVC moving up 2 or 3 spots, which would close the gap with the AAC.
Add St. Louis to the mix, and the MVC would be equivalent to or possibly pass both the AAC and the A-10.
With the addition of Belmont and Murray State, does the conference stay as a 12-team unit or is it tempted to split into two divisions as the Sun Belt (East-West) and MEAC (North-South) do with their teams? The MAC had an East-West division for its 12 teams but switched back to a single unit with Covid at least through 2023-24 and its conference schedule has 20 games. What would a MVC schedule look like and how many games would be played?
(If the conference eventually expands to more than 12 teams, division play likely would be necessary.) Currently, the more obvious possibilities for MVC divisions at 12 teams with traveling partners would seem to be the following two configurations.
East-West
East: Loyola-Valpo, Indiana State-Evansville, Belmont-Murray State
West: Northern Iowa-Drake, Bradley-Illinois State, Southern Illinois-Missouri State.
North-South
North: Northern Iowa-Drake, Loyola-Valpo, Bradley-Illinois State
South: Missouri State-Southern Illinois, Indiana State-Evansville, Belmont-Murray State.
Divisions are a cool idea, IF we didn't have to worry about OOC scheduling and it's negative effect on team and conference NET rankings. One of the great advantages of 12 teams over 10 is 22 conference games instead of 18. Splitting into divisions, playing each team in your division twice, and the other division teams once results in only 16 conference games. Our annual OOC scheduling nightmare, with its non-D-1 filler games and low major matchups made out of desperation (Chicago State, SIUE et al.) just became worse than ever.
Question: If every team in every conference scheduled only in-conference opponents, wouldn't all 32 conferences have identical conference NETS?
Quote from: wh on October 01, 2021, 10:19:57 AM
Divisions are a cool idea, IF we didn't have to worry about OOC scheduling and it's negative effect on team and conference NET rankings. One of the great advantages of 12 teams over 10 is 22 conference games instead of 18. Splitting into divisions, playing each team in your division twice, and the other division teams once results in only 16 conference games. Our annual OOC scheduling nightmare, with its non-D-1 filler games and low major matchups made out of desperation (Chicago State, SIUE et al.) just became worse than ever.
I agree if the MVC will schedule 22 conference games. I'm not sure why the MAC returned from divisions to a 12-team unit but plays only 20 conference games. For me, the threshold for divisional play might be if the conference ever expands to 14 teams.
From everything I have seen there has been no confirmation of this since that tweet. No movement or statement from the MVC office or from Murray State. Should we be concerned? What might be holding this up?
Quote from: VUGrad1314 link=topic=2851.msg135970#msg1s35w970 wwwwwwwqwqqdate=1633117833
From everything I have seen there has been no confirmation of this since that tweet. No movement or statement from the MVC office or from Murray State. Should we be concerned? What might be holding this up?
I don't have an answer for you, but your question brought to mind when Jimmy from Milwaukee foretold with complete certainty that UIC was the Valley's choice to replace Wichita State. He said he heard it from a reliable inside source and corroborated it with 2 other reliable inside sources. When it didn't happen we came to learn that all 3 had picked it up from the same bogus source. lol
Quote from: VU2014 on September 28, 2021, 07:21:50 AMI would love to see Wichita State come back to the MVC but I don't see their egos allowing that to ever happen
About the same as Saint Louis coming back to the MVC. Try putting that on their message board to see what reaction you get.
Why UTA? Go with the Jacks of SFA!
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 02, 2021, 09:06:43 AM
Why UTA? Go with the Jacks of SFA!
SFA is the the WAC now and that conference is hoping to move up a level in football in the future.
As much as I would love to have SFA I don't see them as realistic as they literally just moved to the WAC You almost never see schools pay exit fees twice in such a short span. Also if the MVC is smart UTA would be very far down the list of candidates. I really hope and believe that our#12 is going to be Murray State I hope we get an answer soon.
So it sounds like Colorado State and Air Force have turned down the AAC leaving the AAC to likely look to CUSA or the Sun Belt for candidates. It's possible they can still come out of this looking okay but this is a blow to them to be sure. They might still be able to make some additions to still be attractive to Wichita State but it would appear that there is a real possibility that no matter what the AAC does they will be behind the Mountain West in football putting that conference in play for SMU Tulsa and perhaps Wichita State (and Gonzaga) as well as Tulane Of course SMU could still get a Big XII invite as well but I think they will be passed over as long as TCU is a member The only way I see the AAC staying ahead of the Mountain West is if they sell out completely for football which will cost them Wichita State Make no mistake keeping Colorado State is huge for the Mountain West because it should still be attractive as a basketball landing spot even if Boise State eventually leaves. The AAC unless it can somehow thread the needle perfectly will be faced with the painful choice of trying to keep SMU or Wichita State and might end up losing both regardless of what they do.
Quote from: bbtds on October 01, 2021, 10:17:27 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on September 28, 2021, 07:21:50 AMI would love to see Wichita State come back to the MVC but I don't see their egos allowing that to ever happen
About the same as Saint Louis coming back to the MVC. Try putting that on their message board to see what reaction you get.
In all due respect to SLU fans, what they think is meaningless. The fact is SLU is in severe financial distress, including projected budget shortfalls and severe cash flow issues. In response, they have taken significant cost reduction measures, including no travel by faculty and staff. At the same time, they have men's and women's athletic teams hobnobbing all over the Atlantic seaboard. Their closest conference competitor Dayton is nearly 400 miles away. Their farthest Fordham is 1000 miles away. That is a crazy waste of money by any measure in our current COVID world. If they're not considering the MVC, their President should be fired.
That said, I couldn't care less whether SLU joins the Valley, or not. I detest people with chips on their shoulders or an aura of arrogance. The same goes for Wichita State. Anyone who thinks they would be "settling" by joining the MVC, stay where you are and deal with the consequences. We should ONLY want universities that are excited to join.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/slu-expects-20-million-deficit-from-coronavirus-fallout-up-to-75-million-loss-next-year/article_33bb48aa-ec63-5515-9ada-323504147055.html
That article about Slu is almost a year and a half old and the predictions did not lead to a worst case scenario. In fact, they are no worse off than most schools in the same predicament from the last couple of years.
Without knowing their current enrollment numbers, I'm not in a position to agree or disagree about their current financial health in the aftermath of COVID, or how they compare to other universities. It really doesn't matter. My larger point remains unchanged. I'm not interested in SLU.
And I believe that that your opinion on SLU would reverse 180 degrees if it came out that they had legitimate interest in the MVC Did you have the same opinion on Belmont when it looked like they were thumbing their noses at the MVC's advances and if so has your opinion changed now that they are in? Just curious Like for instance I took a lot of shots at Belmont for not accepting the challenge and moving up to the MVC in 2017 but now that they're here and have taken the challenge I respect and welcome them as a conference mate and peer.
The thought never occurred to me that Belmont declined because they thought they were too good for the Valley. Apples and oranges.
Besides, if Valpo Tundra is correct about SLU's financial condition, they wouldn't be interested anyway. They're far better off traveling half way across the country to play in another mid major conference.
I'm honestly more concerned with our conference potentially thinking they're too good for Murray State That would be the height of arrogance right there I hope we're just waiting on a few particulars to be sorted out before we extend them an invite. I really hope we don't go for some dead weight program just because they're in a big market. That would be so short sighted
I don't see SLU returning to the MVC unless the conference were to somehow rise to the level of one of the Power 5+1 conferences or the A10 completely disbands. Besides the points raised here (including the financial issues, which they are still dealing with), there are two reasons: which schools they view as their peers and which schools students choose if they decide not to go to SLU. In the former case, SLU views its peers as Creighton, Marquette, DePaul, Xavier - along with other non-midwestern Jesuit schools like Georgetown and Boston College. There is no one in the MVC who SLU's administrators see as a peer. Further, students that are interested in SLU who decide not to go there are likely going to Missouri, Illinois, other Big Ten schools, or the schools listed previously. It seems that there would be very few students that had considered SLU that decide to go to SIU, Illinois State or Missouri State (maybe a few for Bradley).
Note that if Belmont seriously considered not joining the MVC, it may be for similar reasons. However, the overriding factor is likely that the OVC is disintegrating and they have to do something. And it could end up being a win-win for Belmont and the MVC.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 04, 2021, 05:38:45 AM
I'm honestly more concerned with our conference potentially thinking they're too good for Murray State That would be the height of arrogance right there I hope we're just waiting on a few particulars to be sorted out before we extend them an invite. I really hope we don't go for some dead weight program just because they're in a big market. That would be so short sighted
It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.
Quote from: bbtds on October 05, 2021, 01:34:09 AMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on October 04, 2021, 05:38:45 AMI'm honestly more concerned with our conference potentially thinking they're too good for Murray State That would be the height of arrogance right there I hope we're just waiting on a few particulars to be sorted out before we extend them an invite. I really hope we don't go for some dead weight program just because they're in a big market. That would be so short sighted
It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.
I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.
As I've stated and posted before, academic performance does now play into the size of the payout for basketball shares. Whether that is a good reason to reject a particular school is another/different question.
Quote from: vu72 on October 05, 2021, 08:30:45 AM
As I've stated and posted before, academic performance does now play into the size of the payout for basketball shares. Whether that is a good reason to reject a particular school is another/different question.
Got this straight from the Murray State Athletics website.
The Fall 2020 semester saw record production by the Racers in the classroom, including an extension of the most important streak in MSU athletics history, a now 33-consecutive semesters of a department-wide GPA of 3.0 or better. The 3.22 GPA is the second-highest in the history of the 33 semester streak, surpassed only by a 3.32 achieved in the spring of 2020. In addition, 13 of 15 teams had a GPA of 3.0 or better, led by an impressive 3.65 from women's soccer. Individually, 12 of the 15 Murray State teams outperformed their 15-year average in the Fall of 2020. Those teams that outperformed their average were baseball, men's basketball, women's basketball, women's cross country, football, women's golf, rifle, women's soccer, softball, women's tennis and indoor and outdoor women's track and field.Those aren't that great for academic numbers. Compare that to Valpo. They are bragging about the improvement of their academic numbers which means they've been pretty poor in the past. 3.0? 3.22?
Quote from: bbtds on October 05, 2021, 08:51:41 AMQuote from: vu72 on October 05, 2021, 08:30:45 AMAs I've stated and posted before, academic performance does now play into the size of the payout for basketball shares. Whether that is a good reason to reject a particular school is another/different question.
Got this straight from the Murray State Athletics website. The Fall 2020 semester saw record production by the Racers in the classroom, including an extension of the most important streak in MSU athletics history, a now 33-consecutive semesters of a department-wide GPA of 3.0 or better. The 3.22 GPA is the second-highest in the history of the 33 semester streak, surpassed only by a 3.32 achieved in the spring of 2020. In addition, 13 of 15 teams had a GPA of 3.0 or better, led by an impressive 3.65 from women's soccer. Individually, 12 of the 15 Murray State teams outperformed their 15-year average in the Fall of 2020. Those teams that outperformed their average were baseball, men's basketball, women's basketball, women's cross country, football, women's golf, rifle, women's soccer, softball, women's tennis and indoor and outdoor women's track and field. Those aren't that great for academic numbers. Compare that to Valpo. They are bragging about the improvement of their academic numbers which means they've been pretty poor in the past. 3.0? 3.22?
GPA is also a misleading reference point. A 3.0 at an Ivy League school vs a 3.0 at a local community college are two very different things.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 05, 2021, 03:51:30 AMQuote from: bbtds on October 05, 2021, 01:34:09 AMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on October 04, 2021, 05:38:45 AMI'm honestly more concerned with our conference potentially thinking they're too good for Murray State That would be the height of arrogance right there I hope we're just waiting on a few particulars to be sorted out before we extend them an invite. I really hope we don't go for some dead weight program just because they're in a big market. That would be so short sighted
It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.
I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.
Some may say that giving an invite to school only because they are currently a high performer in basketball without taking into consideration all of the other aspects of how that school may or may not fit in with the rest of the conference would be stupid short-sighted and ridiculous.
And to be clear, I'll be very happy if Murray gets the invite.
Quote from: vuny98 on October 05, 2021, 01:17:04 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on October 05, 2021, 03:51:30 AMQuote from: bbtds on October 05, 2021, 01:34:09 AMIt really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.
I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.
Some may say that giving an invite to school only because they are currently a high performer in basketball without taking into consideration all of the other aspects of how that school may or may not fit in with the rest of the conference would be stupid short-sighted and ridiculous. And to be clear, I'll be very happy if Murray gets the invite.
That argument would hold a lot more water if we were talking about a flavor of the month program like Oral Roberts or a Johnny Come Lately like Northern Kentucky but Murray State is a whole different animal. This isn't some program that is "Currently a high performer in men's basketball" this is a program that has performed to higher standards than even many within the MVC and has done so through multiple ADs and coaches (Newton Edgar Gottfired Anderson Cronin Prohm McMahon). They have AVERAGED 21.7 wins over a 34 year span since 1987-88. In that span they have 15 tournament appearances four tournament wins 5 NIT trips including an NIT Quarterfinal and a CIT Championship (as well as winning the now defunct Great Alaska Shootout in 2011). They are a program steeped in tradition. But by all means let's add Milwaukee or UIC or Arlington and pat ourselves on the back because the average USNWR ranking went up or we added an R1 institution. That's going to sell tickets at Arch Madness and put butts in the seats during games. Like it or not athletics makes money. If we as a league want to make money for our member institutions there is only one choice for #12.
Additionally it's high time we threw the publics a bone. Every addition to this league since Tulsa's departure in 1994 has been a private school (Evansville Loyola Valpo Belmont). There was a time when they had to do that in order to keep schools like Bradley and Creighton in the fold and it's true that two of those were replacing departed private schools (Evansville replacing Tulsa and Loyola replacing Creighton) but the publics gave up their advantage in the conference when Wichita State left to accommodate the privates and bring us in to bring the count level. We upset the publics at our own peril. If we don't give them something it's very possible schools like Missouri State Illinois State and possibly Northern Iowa could explore other options which would leave us as a much worse overall conference. We upset the publics at our own peril as a conference and like it or not we need each other if we want to be the best conference we can be. It's time for the private schools to reciprocate and in this climate where at large bids are scarce it needs to be a basketball add. Being arrogant about academics now will cost us in the long run. To me there is only one choice. Really I just hope we hear something soon Anything The silence is killing me.
For a cautionary tale look no further than the OVC. Ten years ago they had a chance to further solidify themselves in both football and basketball after adding Belmont by adding Northern Kentucky and North Alabama. The conference refused for strange reasons and is now in the process of being dismantled. The MVC has much more tradition than the OVC ever did but it's not like the OVC has a nothing history. We could end up much worse off than we are now in the long run if we don't prioritize the sport that drives the bus in this league. Basketball needs to be first second and third. If Murray was constantly in APR hell like a lot of other OVC schools have been that would be one thing but they aren't. They aren't a powerhouse but it's not like they're a rock academy either. It's not like we're adding schools like Liberty or GCU with very dubious academic reputations. If we were I'd be much more receptive to the academic argument. Murray State isn't great academically but it's not as far off from the rest of the MVC as we like to believe and it certainly belongs in athletics and fills a hole in the footprint between Belmont and SIU\Evansville. They need to be the clear choice for #12.
They are putting major money into facilities as well. They are long overdue to move up (should have happened with us in 2017) and they are building for it. They're doing everything right.
https://goracers.com/news/2021/8/3/general-making-our-move-athletics-launches-facility-master-plan.aspx
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 05, 2021, 01:56:11 PMQuote from: vuny98 on October 05, 2021, 01:17:04 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on October 05, 2021, 03:51:30 AMQuote from: bbtds on October 05, 2021, 01:34:09 AMIt really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.
I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.
Some may say that giving an invite to school only because they are currently a high performer in basketball without taking into consideration all of the other aspects of how that school may or may not fit in with the rest of the conference would be stupid short-sighted and ridiculous. And to be clear, I'll be very happy if Murray gets the invite.
That argument would hold a lot more water if we were talking about a flavor of the month program like Oral Roberts or a Johnny Come Lately like Northern Kentucky but Murray State is a whole different animal. This isn't some program that is "Currently a high performer in men's basketball" this is a program that has performed to higher standards than even many within the MVC and has done so through multiple ADs and coaches (Newton Edgar Gottfired Anderson Cronin Prohm McMahon). They have AVERAGED 21.7 wins over a 34 year span since 1987-88. In that span they have 15 tournament appearances four tournament wins 5 NIT trips including an NIT Quarterfinal and a CIT Championship (as well as winning the now defunct Great Alaska Shootout in 2011). They are a program steeped in tradition. But by all means let's add Milwaukee or UIC or Arlington and pat ourselves on the back because the average USNWR ranking went up or we added an R1 institution. That's going to sell tickets at Arch Madness and put butts in the seats during games. Like it or not athletics makes money. If we as a league want to make money for our member institutions there is only one choice for #12. Additionally it's high time we threw the publics a bone. Every addition to this league since Tulsa's departure in 1994 has been a private school (Evansville Loyola Valpo Belmont). There was a time when they had to do that in order to keep schools like Bradley and Creighton in the fold and it's true that two of those were replacing departed private schools (Evansville replacing Tulsa and Loyola replacing Creighton) but the publics gave up their advantage in the conference when Wichita State left to accommodate the privates and bring us in to bring the count level. We upset the publics at our own peril. If we don't give them something it's very possible schools like Missouri State Illinois State and possibly Northern Iowa could explore other options which would leave us as a much worse overall conference. We upset the publics at our own peril as a conference and like it or not we need each other if we want to be the best conference we can be. It's time for the private schools to reciprocate and in this climate where at large bids are scarce it needs to be a basketball add. Being arrogant about academics now will cost us in the long run. To me there is only one choice. Really I just hope we hear something soon Anything The silence is killing me. For a cautionary tale look no further than the OVC. Ten years ago they had a chance to further solidify themselves in both football and basketball after adding Belmont by adding Northern Kentucky and North Alabama. The conference refused for strange reasons and is now in the process of being dismantled. The MVC has much more tradition than the OVC ever did but it's not like the OVC has a nothing history. We could end up much worse off than we are now in the long run if we don't prioritize the sport that drives the bus in this league. Basketball needs to be first second and third. If Murray was constantly in APR hell like a lot of other OVC schools have been that would be one thing but they aren't. They aren't a powerhouse but it's not like they're a rock academy either. It's not like we're adding schools like Liberty or GCU with very dubious academic reputations. If we were I'd be much more receptive to the academic argument. Murray State isn't great academically but it's not as far off from the rest of the MVC as we like to believe and it certainly belongs in athletics and fills a hole in the footprint between Belmont and SIU\Evansville. They need to be the clear choice for #12. They are putting major money into facilities as well. They are long overdue to move up (should have happened with us in 2017) and they are building for it. They're doing everything right. https://goracers.com/news/2021/8/3/general-making-our-move-athletics-launches-facility-master-plan.aspx
I'm starting to get the impression that you really want Murray State to be in the conference.
They would be a fine choice from a basketball standpoint for sure. But there are several reasons why they might not make the most sense in the bigger picture. Not saying I agree with all of those reasons, but there are some valid reasons. How much do those reasons matter and will the fact that they are a premiere mid-major basketball school make up for the other areas. Those are the questions that the powers that be have to weigh. It would be a disservice to just say, good at basketball, forget everything else. That's all I am saying.
Quote from: vuny98 on October 05, 2021, 02:40:07 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on October 05, 2021, 01:56:11 PMQuote from: vuny98 on October 05, 2021, 01:17:04 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on October 05, 2021, 03:51:30 AMQuote from: bbtds on October 05, 2021, 01:34:09 AMIt really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.
I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.
Some may say that giving an invite to school only because they are currently a high performer in basketball without taking into consideration all of the other aspects of how that school may or may not fit in with the rest of the conference would be stupid short-sighted and ridiculous. And to be clear, I'll be very happy if Murray gets the invite.
That argument would hold a lot more water if we were talking about a flavor of the month program like Oral Roberts or a Johnny Come Lately like Northern Kentucky but Murray State is a whole different animal. This isn't some program that is "Currently a high performer in men's basketball" this is a program that has performed to higher standards than even many within the MVC and has done so through multiple ADs and coaches (Newton Edgar Gottfired Anderson Cronin Prohm McMahon). They have AVERAGED 21.7 wins over a 34 year span since 1987-88. In that span they have 15 tournament appearances four tournament wins 5 NIT trips including an NIT Quarterfinal and a CIT Championship (as well as winning the now defunct Great Alaska Shootout in 2011). They are a program steeped in tradition. But by all means let's add Milwaukee or UIC or Arlington and pat ourselves on the back because the average USNWR ranking went up or we added an R1 institution. That's going to sell tickets at Arch Madness and put butts in the seats during games. Like it or not athletics makes money. If we as a league want to make money for our member institutions there is only one choice for #12. Additionally it's high time we threw the publics a bone. Every addition to this league since Tulsa's departure in 1994 has been a private school (Evansville Loyola Valpo Belmont). There was a time when they had to do that in order to keep schools like Bradley and Creighton in the fold and it's true that two of those were replacing departed private schools (Evansville replacing Tulsa and Loyola replacing Creighton) but the publics gave up their advantage in the conference when Wichita State left to accommodate the privates and bring us in to bring the count level. We upset the publics at our own peril. If we don't give them something it's very possible schools like Missouri State Illinois State and possibly Northern Iowa could explore other options which would leave us as a much worse overall conference. We upset the publics at our own peril as a conference and like it or not we need each other if we want to be the best conference we can be. It's time for the private schools to reciprocate and in this climate where at large bids are scarce it needs to be a basketball add. Being arrogant about academics now will cost us in the long run. To me there is only one choice. Really I just hope we hear something soon Anything The silence is killing me. For a cautionary tale look no further than the OVC. Ten years ago they had a chance to further solidify themselves in both football and basketball after adding Belmont by adding Northern Kentucky and North Alabama. The conference refused for strange reasons and is now in the process of being dismantled. The MVC has much more tradition than the OVC ever did but it's not like the OVC has a nothing history. We could end up much worse off than we are now in the long run if we don't prioritize the sport that drives the bus in this league. Basketball needs to be first second and third. If Murray was constantly in APR hell like a lot of other OVC schools have been that would be one thing but they aren't. They aren't a powerhouse but it's not like they're a rock academy either. It's not like we're adding schools like Liberty or GCU with very dubious academic reputations. If we were I'd be much more receptive to the academic argument. Murray State isn't great academically but it's not as far off from the rest of the MVC as we like to believe and it certainly belongs in athletics and fills a hole in the footprint between Belmont and SIU\Evansville. They need to be the clear choice for #12. They are putting major money into facilities as well. They are long overdue to move up (should have happened with us in 2017) and they are building for it. They're doing everything right. https://goracers.com/news/2021/8/3/general-making-our-move-athletics-launches-facility-master-plan.aspx
I'm starting to get the impression that you really want Murray State to be in the conference. They would be a fine choice from a basketball standpoint for sure. But there are several reasons why they might not make the most sense in the bigger picture. Not saying I agree with all of those reasons, but there are some valid reasons. How much do those reasons matter and will the fact that they are a premiere mid-major basketball school make up for the other areas. Those are the questions that the powers that be have to weigh. It would be a disservice to just say, good at basketball, forget everything else. That's all I am saying.
Oh I do. I've wanted it since we were both being considered for the MVC. That was the time to stay at 11 for awhile before a suitable 12 emerged in Belmont). The reverse is true as well. Saying "Yeah they suck at basketball but ooh shiny academic ratings" is also a major disservice to the conference. Adding dead weight programs hurts our chances at at large bids which can cost the conference a lot of money and prestige. I'm not saying that's your position and I don't necessarily think academics don't matter (as much as my statements may reflect the contrary position) I'm just saying that it's not like Murray State is a huge drag on the academic reputation of the conference. They're no UIC or Milwaukee but they're not a JuCo\CC either. They're fine. They're not going to negatively impact the academic reputation of the MVC. But they check too many boxes in athletics to ignore. That's where they absolutely do move the needle. Ultimately that's what I think should carry the day here. Of course being in conferences together helps with research collaboration and stuff but it's not like MVC institutions can't collaborate with these regional academic heavyweights without being in a conference together if they need to do so (this is especially true for Valpo as we have a previous relationship with those schools). Admittedly though I'm not a president I'm a fan. The games and the athletics are what I care about because they allow me to stay connected to my university so that's what I prioritize. I get that our priorities are different but I also think that treating Murray State like some kind of academic pariah is unnecessary and arrogant when they can bring so much to the conference in an important area. Like I said whether academics want to acknowledge it or not athletics are important because athletics make money especially for schools like ours in conferences like ours where grabbing those last few bids in the tournament and winning games can make such a meaningful difference for the university as a whole.
VUGrad1314 - Your devotion to Murray State is only matched by your disdain for commas. :) (I always appreciate your passion and insight.) As you sometimes acknowledge, your case is built exclusively on Men's Basketball. There are so many factors to include with that obviously being a major one. Just for fun, let's include a school that you have never mentioned but several national writers have included as an MVC possibility; the University of Denver. On the plus side: DU has won the Directors Cup for 11 out of the last 12 years for non football schools and are most recently 41st of all sports programs in the country. Stanford usually dominates the Cup for all programs, with Michigan winning last year. Pepperdine is the only program that comes close to DU with football out of the equation. They have a 96% graduation rate and over 3.5 GPA for the entire sports department. Their facilities are top notch and relatively new, the oldest being just over 20 years old. Their athletic budget is $35 million per year and their endowment is $775 million. The school's enrollment has been stable/growing. DU is in a top 20 metropolitan area with 3 million people. They have a TV relationship that has a national reach. Academically, they are ranked higher than any MVC school. They have a beautiful brand new 750 acre Rocky Mountain Campus to complement their main city campus in Denver. This new campus was 100% paid for by private donors which means they can rally the troops around a focused mission. They are not particularly happy with the Summit League and are free to go wherever they are wanted because they tend to dominate Olympic sports in other athletic conferences. On the negative side: DU is way out of the footprint for the MVC and too far for my liking, but this hasn't stopped people suggesting places like UT Arlington, UA Little Rock, Oral (B) Roberts, South Dakota State, etc... They are known to be exploring the West Coast Conference now that BYU is leaving and might be a better fit there. And finally, the biggest non-starter for you personally, I'm sure, is that their Men's Basketball program is currently very poor. One could imagine, however, with a switch to a basketball centric conference they would have the institutional will and money to rise to the occasion. My Pioneers over Racers suggestion is only meant to balance your incorrigible support of Murray State for many years. Keep up your unwavering support for The MVC and Valpo!
Jeff Jackson stated he was given a public/private directive. Keep in mind Denver's athletic budget isn't what it looks like as they spend a lot of money on Lax and especially hockey (their #1 sport).
I think Murray's delayed until the football situation is settled and an announcement comes sometime this month. It's been 5 days and no one's denied anything. Matt Brown hasn't rejected the report anywhere, and he usually does when something is bull-hooey.
Murray State was runner up to Valpo 5 years ago. Their APR is basically unchanged since. They would still seem to be the obvious choice from a basketball and geographic standpoint. So, if they were to get passed over again, there must have been a new determinant that they failed to meet. Media market is the most obvious, but there could be others. I think it's safe to say that if another school gets the nod, we'll never be told why Murray didn't, nor should we.
Look, Denver Arlington and Milwaukee would check every box if their programs weren't horrendous. If they were good I would be pounding the table just as hard for them for all the advantages they bring. But I just don't feel comfortable making a bet on a big market program with no tradition in basketball. (Milwaukee would be an exception here but their fan support has cratered so badly and I don't see a ton of institutional commitment to athletic success there these days). We went to the bad team in a big market well with Loyola and it worked out beautifully because Loyola had tradition and resources and committed to being great. That's just not a formula I feel comfortable following too many times. They won't all be Loyolas. Eventually we'll get stuck with a program that is a huge drag on the conference. With at large bids extremely hard to come by and given the position of strength the MVC presently enjoys I want proven products that show strong potential to contribute towards that goal. Remember how mad we were when we lost out to Loyola because they sucked back then and we didn't? (not saying we suck now but we haven't been great since joining the MVC). Murray State could (and probably will initially) struggle in the MVC like Loyola did and like we have but they unquestionably have the institutional commitment and the will to be great and we need that in any conference member. Their plans going forward with facilities are nothing short of impressive.
There's a big cautionary tale here too. Consider Conference USA. After being raided when the AAC was created their commissioner got the bright idea to add a bunch of programs in big markets with no tradition in football. Now their league sucks and everyone wants to leave even for the Sun Belt which focused on getting properties that could win like Appalachian State. We want to focus on bringing in teams that win in the sport that matters most to us (basketball). Otherwise we might end up like Conference USA is now. I really believe if the private schools dig in their heels on this any public school that can is going to seriously explore going FBS. If however we focus solely on making the conference better it may well become too good for them to leave. As strange as it sounds Murray State may well be the safest play to ensure the long-term stability of the conference which is what we should all want because the it's working pretty well for everyone right now if I should say so myself.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 06, 2021, 08:49:45 AM
Look, Denver Arlington and Milwaukee would check every box if their programs weren't horrendous. If they were good I would be pounding the table just as hard for them for all the advantages they bring. But I just don't feel comfortable making a bet on a big market program with no tradition in basketball. (Milwaukee would be an exception here but their fan support has cratered so badly and I don't see a ton of institutional commitment to athletic success there these days). We went to the bad team in a big market well with Loyola and it worked out beautifully because Loyola had tradition and resources and committed to being great. That's just not a formula I feel comfortable following too many times. They won't all be Loyolas. Eventually we'll get stuck with a program that is a huge drag on the conference. With at large bids extremely hard to come by and given the position of strength the MVC presently enjoys I want proven products that show strong potential to contribute towards that goal. Remember how mad we were when we lost out to Loyola because they sucked back then and we didn't? (not saying we suck now but we haven't been great since joining the MVC). Murray State could (and probably will initially) struggle in the MVC like Loyola did and like we have but they unquestionably have the institutional commitment and the will to be great and we need that in any conference member. Their plans going forward with facilities are nothing short of impressive.
There's a big cautionary tale here too. Consider Conference USA. After being raided when the AAC was created their commissioner got the bright idea to add a bunch of programs in big markets with no tradition in football. Now their league sucks and everyone wants to leave even for the Sun Belt which focused on getting properties that could win like Appalachian State. We want to focus on bringing in teams that win in the sport that matters most to us (basketball). Otherwise we might end up like Conference USA is now. I really believe if the private schools dig in their heels on this any public school that can is going to seriously explore going FBS. If however we focus solely on making the conference better it may well become too good for them to leave. As strange as it sounds Murray State may well be the safest play to ensure the long-term stability of the conference which is what we should all want because the it's working pretty well for everyone right now if I should say so myself.
Your comment is typical of a lot of overhype out there in Valley land about Loyola. Yes, they've done amazing things over the last 4 years. The question is can they sustain this level of performance going forward? Before you lecture me about facilities, commitment, momentum, and other subjective, nebulous descriptors, let's look at the facts:
- Short of going back to the dark ages of college basketball, the only "tradition" Loyola brought with them was that of a perrineal doormat. Go back 20 years and tell me what you see (don't waste your time, I already have). They were consistently terrible in an inferior mid major league. Losing records, terrible RPI's, conference bottomfeeders. Suddenly 4 years ago that all changed. Why, do you suppose?
- Have you taken time to look at Porter Moser's coaching record year by year, (don't waste your time, I already have). Before the last 4 years, his teams had 10 consecutive seasons with losing conference records, as head coach of 2 MVC programs. The same pep talker, the same media smoozer, the same motivator, the same coaching tedchniques, the same defensive-mindedness, etc., yet a complete failure as a coach - until mysteriously 4 years ago. Why, do you suppose?
- I'll even throw in Sister Jean. The same prayers for Moser's teams that fell on deaf ears for years were suddenly answered in an incredible way. Did she finally figure out how to connect to God, or might there be another explanation?
So, the question becomes: what's the one and only one common denominator to Loyola's sudden rise to glory, from rags to riches, from the outhouse to the penthouse? Might it be one of the most uniquely talented basketball players (with emphasis on uniquely) in recent NCAA history - namely Carmen Krutwig? Would that be fairly possible? And, if you allow yourself to consider this as a real possibility, might it be reasonable to think that without Krutwig (and Moser, if you think he suddenly became a coaching genius), might it make sense that Loyola is going to fall from its pedestal (statistical trend analysis practically guarantees it)? I think the far more likely scenario is that they caught lightening in a bottle that is now in their rear view mirror. In fact, I would almost guarantee it, if not for one thing - they have a new coach who for all anyone knows could be a star in the making.
Quote from: wh on October 06, 2021, 11:16:04 AM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 06, 2021, 08:49:45 AM
Look, Denver Arlington and Milwaukee would check every box if their programs weren't horrendous. If they were good I would be pounding the table just as hard for them for all the advantages they bring. But I just don't feel comfortable making a bet on a big market program with no tradition in basketball. (Milwaukee would be an exception here but their fan support has cratered so badly and I don't see a ton of institutional commitment to athletic success there these days). We went to the bad team in a big market well with Loyola and it worked out beautifully because Loyola had tradition and resources and committed to being great. That's just not a formula I feel comfortable following too many times. They won't all be Loyolas. Eventually we'll get stuck with a program that is a huge drag on the conference. With at large bids extremely hard to come by and given the position of strength the MVC presently enjoys I want proven products that show strong potential to contribute towards that goal. Remember how mad we were when we lost out to Loyola because they sucked back then and we didn't? (not saying we suck now but we haven't been great since joining the MVC). Murray State could (and probably will initially) struggle in the MVC like Loyola did and like we have but they unquestionably have the institutional commitment and the will to be great and we need that in any conference member. Their plans going forward with facilities are nothing short of impressive.
There's a big cautionary tale here too. Consider Conference USA. After being raided when the AAC was created their commissioner got the bright idea to add a bunch of programs in big markets with no tradition in football. Now their league sucks and everyone wants to leave even for the Sun Belt which focused on getting properties that could win like Appalachian State. We want to focus on bringing in teams that win in the sport that matters most to us (basketball). Otherwise we might end up like Conference USA is now. I really believe if the private schools dig in their heels on this any public school that can is going to seriously explore going FBS. If however we focus solely on making the conference better it may well become too good for them to leave. As strange as it sounds Murray State may well be the safest play to ensure the long-term stability of the conference which is what we should all want because the it's working pretty well for everyone right now if I should say so myself.
Your comment is typical of a lot of overhype out there in Valley land about Loyola. Yes, they've done amazing things over the last 4 years. The question is can they sustain this level of performance going forward? Before you lecture me about facilities, commitment, momentum, and other subjective, nebulous descriptors, let's look at the facts:
- Short of going back to the dark ages of college basketball, the only "tradition" Loyola brought with them was that of a perrineal doormat. Go back 20 years and tell me what you see (don't waste your time, I already have). They were consistently terrible in an inferior mid major league. Losing records, terrible RPI's, conference bottomfeeders. Suddenly 4 years ago that all changed. Why, do you suppose?
- Have you taken time to look at Porter Moser's coaching record year by year, (don't waste your time, I already have). Before the last 4 years, his teams had 10 consecutive seasons with losing conference records, coaching 2 MVC programs. The same pep talker, the same media smoozer, the same motivator, the same coaching tedchniques, the same defensive-mindedness, etc., yet a complete failure as a coach - until mysteriously 4 years ago. Why, do you suppose?
- I'll even throw in Sister Jean. The same prayers for Moser's teams that fell on deaf ears for years were suddenly answered in an incredible way. Did she suddenly figure out how to connect to God, or might there be another explanation?
So, the question becomes what's the one and only one common denominator to Loyola's sudden rise to glory, from rags to riches, from the outhouse to the penthouse? Might it be one of the most uniquely talented basketball players (with emphasis on uniquely) in recent NCAA history - namely Carmen Krutwig? Would that be fairly possible? And, if you allow yourself to consider this as a real possibility, might it be reasonable to think that without Krutwig (and Moser, if you think he suddenly became a coaching genius), might it make sense that Loyola is going to fall from its pedestal (statistical trend analysis practically guarantees it)? I think the far more likely scenario is that they caught lightening in a bottle that is now in their rear view mirror. In fact, I would almost guarantee it, if not for one thing - they have a new coach who for all anyone knows could be a star in the making.
I certainly don't think they will sustain the same level of success, but I also highly doubt they will return to the place they were beforehand. They have used this "lightning in a bottle" success to attract talents at a much high level than they were before. They still have 2 of the best defensive players in college basketball on their team. They have a lot of good young talent that have taken notes from their more successful upperclassmen and krutwig himself. Success breeds success. They have changed the culture in the program.
Quote from: vok22 on October 06, 2021, 11:23:40 AM
Quote from: wh on October 06, 2021, 11:16:04 AM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 06, 2021, 08:49:45 AM
Look, Denver Arlington and Milwaukee would check every box if their programs weren't horrendous. If they were good I would be pounding the table just as hard for them for all the advantages they bring. But I just don't feel comfortable making a bet on a big market program with no tradition in basketball. (Milwaukee would be an exception here but their fan support has cratered so badly and I don't see a ton of institutional commitment to athletic success there these days). We went to the bad team in a big market well with Loyola and it worked out beautifully because Loyola had tradition and resources and committed to being great. That's just not a formula I feel comfortable following too many times. They won't all be Loyolas. Eventually we'll get stuck with a program that is a huge drag on the conference. With at large bids extremely hard to come by and given the position of strength the MVC presently enjoys I want proven products that show strong potential to contribute towards that goal. Remember how mad we were when we lost out to Loyola because they sucked back then and we didn't? (not saying we suck now but we haven't been great since joining the MVC). Murray State could (and probably will initially) struggle in the MVC like Loyola did and like we have but they unquestionably have the institutional commitment and the will to be great and we need that in any conference member. Their plans going forward with facilities are nothing short of impressive.
There's a big cautionary tale here too. Consider Conference USA. After being raided when the AAC was created their commissioner got the bright idea to add a bunch of programs in big markets with no tradition in football. Now their league sucks and everyone wants to leave even for the Sun Belt which focused on getting properties that could win like Appalachian State. We want to focus on bringing in teams that win in the sport that matters most to us (basketball). Otherwise we might end up like Conference USA is now. I really believe if the private schools dig in their heels on this any public school that can is going to seriously explore going FBS. If however we focus solely on making the conference better it may well become too good for them to leave. As strange as it sounds Murray State may well be the safest play to ensure the long-term stability of the conference which is what we should all want because the it's working pretty well for everyone right now if I should say so myself.
Your comment is typical of a lot of overhype out there in Valley land about Loyola. Yes, they've done amazing things over the last 4 years. The question is can they sustain this level of performance going forward? Before you lecture me about facilities, commitment, momentum, and other subjective, nebulous descriptors, let's look at the facts:
- Short of going back to the dark ages of college basketball, the only "tradition" Loyola brought with them was that of a perrineal doormat. Go back 20 years and tell me what you see (don't waste your time, I already have). They were consistently terrible in an inferior mid major league. Losing records, terrible RPI's, conference bottomfeeders. Suddenly 4 years ago that all changed. Why, do you suppose?
- Have you taken time to look at Porter Moser's coaching record year by year, (don't waste your time, I already have). Before the last 4 years, his teams had 10 consecutive seasons with losing conference records, coaching 2 MVC programs. The same pep talker, the same media smoozer, the same motivator, the same coaching tedchniques, the same defensive-mindedness, etc., yet a complete failure as a coach - until mysteriously 4 years ago. Why, do you suppose?
- I'll even throw in Sister Jean. The same prayers for Moser's teams that fell on deaf ears for years were suddenly answered in an incredible way. Did she suddenly figure out how to connect to God, or might there be another explanation?
So, the question becomes what's the one and only one common denominator to Loyola's sudden rise to glory, from rags to riches, from the outhouse to the penthouse? Might it be one of the most uniquely talented basketball players (with emphasis on uniquely) in recent NCAA history - namely Carmen Krutwig? Would that be fairly possible? And, if you allow yourself to consider this as a real possibility, might it be reasonable to think that without Krutwig (and Moser, if you think he suddenly became a coaching genius), might it make sense that Loyola is going to fall from its pedestal (statistical trend analysis practically guarantees it)? I think the far more likely scenario is that they caught lightening in a bottle that is now in their rear view mirror. In fact, I would almost guarantee it, if not for one thing - they have a new coach who for all anyone knows could be a star in the making.
I certainly don't think they will sustain the same level of success, but I also highly doubt they will return to the place they were beforehand. They have used this "lightning in a bottle" success to attract talents at a much high level than they were before. They still have 2 of the best defensive players in college basketball on their team. They have a lot of good young talent that have taken notes from their more successful upperclassmen and krutwig himself. Success breeds success. They have changed the culture in the program.
IMO that's a highly optimistic view, given the facts, but certainly one shared by probably 99 out of 100 MVC fans. It will be interesting to see where Loyola men's basketball is 4 years from now with a new coach and a new cycle of players. Speaking of which, it will be interesting to see where Oklahoma men's basketball is 4 years from now.
The facts are Loyola's facilities, budget, donations, and level of recruits are significantly higher than they were in the 2000s. None of that is "subjective descriptors" (except maybe recruiting rankings).
Certainly some of you are not saying or implying that MSU and Loyola are or were on the same level for consideration for MVC membership, are you? Their situations are miles apart.... from markets, overall programs, academics, etc. A good conference has schools that are well respected for academics and overall reputations and location/market. An example is Rutgers in the Big 10....their membership certainly was not based on their athletic prowess.
Quote from: may know on October 06, 2021, 12:12:37 PM
The facts are Loyola's facilities, budget, donations, and level of recruits are significantly higher than they were in the 2000s. None of that is "subjective descriptors" (except maybe recruiting rankings).
In all due respect, facilities, budget, and donations are completely subjective descriptors in terms of what direct impact they may or may not have on wins and losses. For sake of argument, I'll grant you "level of recruits" as being a more direct predictor of success. That said, until we see these better recruits perform without their talent anomaly Krutwig, no one has a clue (even though they think they do) that Loyola will remain a dominant team over the long term. Let me remind you that we have had 2 once-in-a-generation players that we all thought would have a huge residual effect after they were gone. To some degree it did, but we were never as good as we were when they were here.
Again, not saying they are going to continue being a perennial sweet 16 team. Just think that their recent success has brought in talent that will at least keep their floor at a high level for the next few years.
I do think that Loyola's success has positively impacted their enrollment. Kids are now considering Loyola as an option who may not have before.
Quote from: valpo tundra on October 05, 2021, 11:03:16 PMVUGrad1314 - Your devotion to Murray State is only matched by your disdain for commas.
How about you adding some paragraphs to make it easier to read?
Quote from: bbtds on October 07, 2021, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: valpo tundra on October 05, 2021, 11:03:16 PMVUGrad1314 - Your devotion to Murray State is only matched by your disdain for commas.
How about you adding some paragraphs to make it easier to read?
'1314 is one of my all-time favorite posters. Pure unabridged passion at it's best. What great fandom is all about.
Quote from: vuny98 on October 05, 2021, 01:11:43 PMGPA is also a misleading reference point. A 3.0 at an Ivy League school vs a 3.0 at a local community college are two very different things.
Yet the NCAA doesn't make any distinction between a 3.0 at Harvard compared to a 3.0 at IUPUI when rating the academic side of athletic teams.
The market schools will always be there. UTA and Little Rock are not going to find better landing spots than the MVC if they leave the Sun Belt. Any HL school we want would come to the MVC at the snap of a finger. We can add markets any time we want especially while most of those big market schools are in down cycles; but even in up cycles, they would be looking for the kind of challenge the MVC can provide. While it's true that Murray State is probably in the same boat in that they won't find a better option, I'm of the belief that the best thing we can do for ourselves right now is to build up our product both among the current MVC membership and with the most attractive games and programs possible.
This year was our first multibid season (hopefully of many) in the post-Wichita State era and it's important to remember that it almost didn't happen as Drake was the last team in and picked up two additional Q2 opportunities thanks to COVID scheduling that they thankfully cashed in on @Missouri State and @Indiana State over the Q3 games they would have gotten in a normal year had they played them in the traditional home and home. I have no doubt that this made a difference given the razor thin margin Drake ended up on the right side of this year.
Nevertheless, thanks to our newly-restored multibid status the success of Loyola and Drake's victory over Wichita State in the First Four, I believe it is fair to say that we have fended off the perception that Wichita State's departure would be the end of the conference's relevancy; however, I still believe there is more work to do to raise the floor of the conference and put it on more solid footing for both the selection committee and future TV deals. If we want to become a true multibid league well-into the post-COVID era when all of the extra eligibility that is going to create a super deep MVC the next couple of years, we need more depth in the conference. More quality programs to provide more Q2 and (maybe even Q1) games to get the committee's attention and also make the conference more valuable down the line. Belmont was a terrific first step in this process and what's more, they add a market. Furthermore, I will not deny that having access to the Chicago market, playing in St Louis, and having several teams that are in what Belmont seems to consider fertile recruiting territory in Illinois and Indiana probably helped the MVC land the Bruins just as much if not more than the MVC's prowess on the court did.
Still, I believe that Belmont alone may not provide the depth we need and that Murray State is the logical second step in this process. They would benefit in many of the same ways Belmont likely will in recruiting while providing a mutual benefit to the MVC of another high-quality winning program. Yes, we have an impressively deep list of teams who have succeeded recently in Loyola Drake Bradley UNI and Missouri State who has been pretty solid/ SIU Evansville and Valpo are rising as well, but we're still not quite where I believe we can be or need to be as a conference at least not consistently yet.
Like Belmont, Murray State helps us get there in ways the other programs just can't right now. Once we are on solid footing as a multibid league with lots of high quality TV games, then we can look more seriously at markets without damaging our brand too much if they don't produce. Once we have a product to sell that networks want, if the networks say we'll make more money by adding X Y or Z markets, then we can easily add to our profile with further expansion. Taking this approach could net us some real money and put those markets to work for us while adding to the academic quality of the conference and opening up further enrollment\recuriting opportunities. But right now, I believe that the practical pragmatic solution for the MVC is to pursue the best basketball brands we can get while we are in a position of strength to make ourselves even stronger and give ourselves staying power down the road. Then the markets can and will come and benefit us more as I've said. Right now, in this building phase, I believe that it is okay if academics take a slight back seat to athletic prowess right now. We can always balance that out later if the need or financial incentive should arise.
It is important to remember, however, that markets and academics alone don't make for a successful conference. Performance matters too. Conferences don't make money just because they have a bunch of high quality academic institutions. They make money in the sports world which can and does fund academics because they have a product to sell and that product performs and entertains. Make no mistake, media money is important-- just ask Oklahoma Texas BYU Cincinnati Houston and UCF the latter three of which broke away from schools like Tulane and Tulsa Temple SMU and South Florida all of whom have pretty decent academic clout and the prestige of a military academy in Navy to make a run for the cash in the SEC and Big XII respectively. Moreover, those schools and even the Eastern exposure they would bring weren't enough to sway Air Force and Colorado State both of whom also have very solid academic reputations to join. Why? Because they were concerned that the AAC's performance less their Big 3 would not justify the expense and upheaval of a conference move relative to what they already have in the Mountain West. Gonzaga is probably going to eventually leave the West Coast Conference--a perfect academic and institutional fit--for the Mountain West in a few years for the exact same reason. When Wichita State was admitted into the AAC, I assure you that the school's academic profile was not the leading criterion used to justify that invitation.
This is what I mean when I say that to dismiss a high performing program that can help your performance on the court on academic grounds is short-sighted stupid and reckless, especially in a league like ours that is fighting for every breath of air and ounce of exposure it can get. I would even argue that in our world--the world of the mid major with small media deals and smaller athletics budgets--performance matters even more because it's our only shot at national relevance and the easiest way to get our schools into the minds of perspective students for potential enrollment. People don't pay attention to the MVC and haven't ever paid attention to the MVC because of their impressive gaudy academic reputations; they pay attention because the athletics--the front porches to the member institutions--look good. The academic criteria matter mostly to University Presidents and to individual applicants. I doubt more than a handful of students are going to choose Valpo because they're in the same conference as Milwaukee or UTA or Little Rock or Wright State or NKU and most of them are going to be athletes looking to get away but still play close to home occasionally anyway. Is that really worth making a suboptimal addition to your overall profile in your flagship sport which is one of your main recruiting tools when you break through and do well? By the same token, nobody is going to NOT pick Valpo or Drake or Bradley or Illinois State or Belmont or UNI or Missouri State or Evansville or SIU or Loyola or Indiana State because they would DARE stoop so low as to associate with the likes of lowly Murray State. They are going to pick the school whose programs size academic rigor and institutional character best suits their needs wants and personality and yes some ARE going to choose a school in part because of athletics (I did even though I'm not an athlete. Outside of the Ivy League or the Big 10 or the Pac 12 or conferences like that no applicant is going to give much thought to the schools that the school they are considering chooses to associate itself with. Overall institutional fit matters (size and public\private) but specific schools really don't or shouldn't as long as that basic criteria is met and it is met for all MVC institutions or this conference wouldn't exist as it has. Furthermore, if the academic quality of a conference mattered AT ALL to student enrollment why has Belmont's enrollment exploded despite being with schools for the past ten years that aren't so great academically (many of the OVC schools have had fairly recent APR trouble but not to my knowledge Murray State)? Belmont has succeeded because people like Belmont conference affiliation or the teams associated with it don't matter too much to most individual applicants and have little impact on enrollment. This is one reason why I believe the academic arguments against Murray State are overstated and irrelevant. You're not damaging your school by associating with them but given their performance on the court and the fan support that they have which brings eyeballs you might help it a bit more than you think.
Valpo as an institution (same with Loyola Drake Bradley really most MVC institutions) sells itself. If we put our minds to marketing our university we can and do attract students. As we have shown, we don't need Milwaukee in the conference to recruit Wisconsin any more than Belmont needs the increased exposure the MVC will provide in those areas to recruit Illinois and Indiana. If we tried harder in places like Arkansas and Texas we probably wouldn't need Little Rock or UTA to sell our institution for us there either. People are going to find out about and come to Valpo if it's right for them. The exposure in the market can help but it shouldn't be a driving factor in admission to a conference. It should be one among many and should be considered alongside overall performance. Performance+market can make a great add (like Belmont) but we shouldn't just blindly chase markets with teams that aren't performing and don't draw or get coverage in their own markets.
According to the D1360 video for all of the academic credentials and all of their markets of Milwaukee UIC UTA and Little Rock (all four of these schools are in top 80 markets and all are either R1 or R2 with Little Rock being the only R2 and the only one outside a top 40 market, none of them draw more than 2000 fans per game over a 3 year average. What has the market done for them? All these schools have going for them is academics (although Milwaukee and Little Rock at least have some history). If this is how they draw against lesser brands what will happen when they come in and get beaten up by even better brands? Not every school is going to have the ability or the will to be like Loyola and make efforts and improvements just because they're in a better conference (though admittedly UTA is doing some impressive work as has Belmont which has helped get them in). Some are skeptical of Belmont because of this very reason (fan support) but Belmont's numbers dwarf all four of these candidates even in a saturated college sports market and against OVC competition. Each of these four schools plays on average better brands than Belmont has and they still can't outdraw the Bruins. I believe that playing better brands will only make that discrepancy larger. This baseline of high performance and their performance in the post-Rick Byrd era give me hope that this move will have the desired outcome for both school and conference and that both will realize gains from this partnership. I don't have the same confidence in these other schools because of their lack of performance over the past 15 or so years with Little Rock being the exception of having a couple years where they flashed and surprised a team in the first round of the tournament even though as the video points out that their overall average isn't good. I do not believe that Belmont's performance was irrelevant or a negligible factor in their admission even though they check all the academic and market boxes. All of that helped, but their performance helped a lot too; and it should absolutely be a heavy factor in all expansion decisions. Can this program actually contribute or would they just be taking up space and leaving us all praying we can somehow find enough exposure to pull enough students to justify their inclusion? The MVC is one of only seven conferences where every member has won at least one NCAA Tournament game in their history. That matters to me and it should matter in expansion discussions. I understand there are more ways than athletics to make money but athletics can make money too and plenty of it.
In light of this information, I have to ask ask if adding a market school is worthwhile given the likely negligible effects on student enrollment and the lack of fan support which will be harder to sustain playing better programs because these programs are sure to take more losses. In addition, I must ask which you believe is more worthwhile in terms of branding and exposure, playing in bigger markets where your competition is an afterthought and doesn't draw or playing in teams whose markets are not so impressive but who support and pay attention to their teams? Which path is going to lead to more students learning about and potentially committing to Valpo? One of the best things about the MVC is that these teams DO get coverage in their own markets small though many of them may be. Murray State is no exception here. As we remember from our Horizon League days, most of the Horizon League teams are afterthoughts in their own market and few of them (outside of like NKU Wright State Oakland and perhaps Robert Morris but I haven't looked at their attendance numbers) draw fans. Markets don't mean anything if you don't control them and none of the market teams we are talking about have great market share in their markets even though NKU and Wright State have decent attendance numbers that might be helped by MVC inclusion. Meanwhile, Murray State may inhabit a small town but their fans show up to support their team and they travel well. They make bank in ticket sales and their attendance is the best of the expansion candidates and would be top half in the MVC right away. That matters. One of the draws of the MVC to me when we joined was the fact that unlike many of the HL teams the fans in the MVC care about and support their teams. They get media coverage locally and a great deal of it. It has been a great spot for Valpo because of this. In fact, as the D1360 video showed, our enrollment is up over the past 10 years by 9%. We're actually doing well all things considered. By contrast, Murray State's is down 9% but is actually doing better than any other candidate in this regard except UIC and UTA. When you take a deeper look at Murray State's institutional profile you see that it really isn't that bad and I have firm belief that getting the Racers exposure in central and southern Indiana and Illinois as well as them holding onto the chance to play in the Nashville market may very well help reverse their negative enrollment trend in and of itself especially if they come in and hit the ground running with a winning program from the start. I understand that hitting the ground running in the MVC isn't likely given the initial struggles of recent MVC additions, but it is certainly possible. Their performance pre-admission is MVC level, their facilities are MVC level, their fan support is MVC level. They don't bring a market but they do bring fans and that is a good thing for the conference. The rivalries they would create are good for the conference and potential TV deals especially if the Racers perform to their capabilities and their academics\enrollment trends etc. aren't that bad.
The Racers' profile has warts to be sure but so does\did every successful MVC expansion candidate. Loyola had the market the money and the academics but not the recent performance and their facilities were okay but not great which they are rectifying. Their fan support wasn't great before but is steadily improving. We had the performance and the academics but not the facilities or the market but we are still beginning to show that we belong. Our fan support has been okay all things considered and certainly could and should be better but our endowment growth has been impressive. Belmont has the market the facilities the performance and the academics but debatably not the fan support. Their growth has been impressive. They are what we hope any big market team would become if we ever added them. But that begs the question, since we already have a team that likely represents the best case scenario for any big market team we would add to our conference--two of them in fact if we count Loyola and I believe they absolutely should count here given the risk we took and their performance since their admission to the conference-- why would\should we add another big market team hoping that they become another Loyola or at least another Belmont when what we need the most right now through the expansion process is some more top or at least mid level performers to strengthen the conference overall and futher secure our status as a multibid league in perpetuity?
Murray State has the performance and the facilities and the fan support but not the market or (debatably) the academics and they could certainly stand to grow their endowment which they probably will do\are doing now. However, I still believe that they check enough boxes that the warts in their resume should not override their candidacy and that they are the program best suited for the current needs of the MVC which is to add depth of performance in the conference in order to secure a permanent place at the at large bid table. Once that place is assured, we can look to grow and branch out in other ways if we so choose and if the benefit is there to augment other important factors such as markets and overall academics among our member institutions. Right now, however, our first priority should be to make an already good conference a great conference. Everything else can and will take care of itself, but performance should drive the engine of growth for the MVC right now. The shoring up of the market and academic profile of the MVC can come later. Make no mistake, markets and peer institutions are important; but they matter less than you think in enrollment. By contrast, on court performance and fan support within your conference matter more than you think and should not be dismissed as important factors in their own right.
War and Peace. Vol.2
Quote from: Just Sayin on October 08, 2021, 09:02:07 AM
War and Peace. Vol.2
Yes, but how many more posts of complete nonsense do you have?
At least he used paragraphs!
Quote from: bbtds on October 08, 2021, 05:30:57 PMQuote from: Just Sayin on October 08, 2021, 09:02:07 AMWar and Peace. Vol.2
Yes, but how many more posts of complete nonsense do you have? At least he used paragraphs!
Engage with the argument or kindly stay out of the discussion if you have nothing whatsoever to contribute. Sorry I couldn't condense my points down to a short punchy meme or picture or quip like other posters are able to do so ably. Let me go about this another way then:
Why do I say that market size is pretty irrelevant for leagues like ours? Because it is. I already brought up the point about how adding a bunch of markets did nothing for Conference USA. You can't find their games and nobody's interested. Looking only at basketball focused leagues, if markets mattered the HL would be the most sought after mid major conference ever. They have presence in so many top markets (#3 Chicago #14 (Detroit) #19 (Cleveland) #24 (Pittsburgh) #25 (Indianapolis) #35 (Milwaukee) #37 (Cincinnati) #67 (Green Bay) #110 (Ft Wayne) #115 (Youngstown). Many of these dwarf the MVC markets and yet.... No fan support (outside of a few teams) limited coverage and they couldn't even make a neutral site tournament work for them despite having not one but two programs in or near the host city. We have seen these things firsthand as Valpo fans. It's no secret that MVC fanbases show up more on average than HL schools despite their impressive markets.
As for academics despite having an R1 or R2 designation, here are the enrollment trends for the possible expansion candidates as mentioned in the D1360 video on Belmont's admission over the past 10 years:
UIC +28%
UTA +28%
Milwaukee -17%
NKU
[size=78%] -18% [/size]Little Rock -37%
Wright State -40%
So the R1 and R2 designation doesn't seem to be doing much for many of these schools. Meanwhile lowly little regional Murray State has experienced only a 9% drop in enrollment over that span. There may be other factors at play but clearly impressive markets and academic profiles aren't doing enough to attract students to many of these schools while Murray State has been relatively insulated from this trend. Yes, enrollment is down lots of places but this just provides yet another reason against the power and pull of these factors at our level.
Is that fact-based and reasonable enough for you or am I still spouting nonsense?
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 08, 2021, 11:02:10 PM
Looking only at basketball focused leagues, if markets mattered the HL would be the most sought after mid major conference ever.
You just landed a major blow to the "major market" argument. Loyola's recent tournament success not withstanding, Chicago is not nor ever will be a mid major college basketball town. Well played.
I do think the Chicago was behind Loyola during the tournament run. And Sister Jean added to the appeal. That being said, when they are not making a tournament run, I don't think the general market gives them a second thought. Or DePaul for that matter. I find most people are deeply rooted in the Big Ten teams or Notre Dame.
The fan base is much more important than geography. Big city does not mean big following.
This discussion is interesting, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what we think. The presidents' expansion committee chair has already said, "...and, we're not done yet." Clearly, they have someone(s) in mind. The only question is who (or whom for our resident pedants). If we took a poll, I'm guessing most people would pick Murray State as the most obvious choice. I would agree, except for one thing. Every mention of Murray State being considered the first time or this time gets leaked like a sieve by one source or another in Murray land. And yet, the Murray rumor mill been eerily silent ever since Belmont was announced. That has me wondering.
I was glad Valpo joined the MVC. I just wish Valpo would just not leech as a MVC member in the conference and become a bigger and better contributor. Our teams are in the bottom half of all sports and our facilities are embarrassing. It's time to step up. Valpo needs to walk the walk, the honeymoon is over.
That being said, for the MVC to expand, think about schools with growth potential. Outside of the box, how about SFA (yes, a WAC member but who knows where that will go). But as a real dark horse, how about NW Missouri St.. in Div 2? They have been outstanding for several years and have great facilities and it's a great teachers college traditionally like UNI and Illinois.St.
No D2 call-ups also aren't we second in volleyball and tied for first in women's soccer? I'd say we're really starting to turn the corner athletically based on those early returns. As for your expansion idea No to any D2 call up. Potential or not that is just not the route we need to be going. Let them prove that potential in another conference first. Finally, it appears our new president wants to make ARC renovations or perhaps even a new building a priority in the next fundraising drive. I like what I'm hearing and it sounds like we're finally stepping up. I hope he keeps his word and makes that a reality.
1314 - good points but trust me on this - with the exception of Loyola, NW Mo St bastketball last year was better than any MVC team. Their players are better fundamentally, have height, talent - they would have wiped Valpo off the floor. My thought is out of the box and it's a university on the upswing.
SFA would be an ideal MVC candidate. Tapping into the Texas market where student are from Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston make sense. also, we can get Buc-ees, the greatest interstate stop chain in human existence, to sponsor the MVC tournament!
Regarding Valpo progressing with facilities - those are nice words but how long will this take? Actions are required expeditiously.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 10, 2021, 09:39:09 AM
...aren't we second in volleyball and tied for first in women's soccer? I'd say we're really starting to turn the corner athletically based on those early returns.
Add Women's tennis:
[tweet]1447245804998103040[/tweet]
[tweet]1447216503888166917[/tweet]
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 10, 2021, 09:57:01 AM
1314 - good points but trust me on this - with the exception of Loyola, NW Mo St bastketball last year was better than any MVC team. Their players are better fundamentally, have height, talent - they would have wiped Valpo off the floor. My thought is out of the box and it's a university on the upswing.
SFA would be an ideal MVC candidate. Tapping into the Texas market where student are from Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston make sense. also, we can get Buc-ees, the greatest interstate stop chain in human existence, to sponsor the MVC tournament!
Regarding Valpo progressing with facilities - those are nice words but how long will this take? Actions are required expeditiously.
If I recall correctly, SFA has one of the worst APR's in D-1.
The low APR at SFA was doe to a documentation error by the administration. Either way, since they are upset of dealings with SEC schools, the NCAA responded by giving another school 3 years probation, just like the process for Cleveland State the great Jerry Tarkanian would say.
Cripe, the NCAA is almost dead, just let it go away.
In reality, SFA academically is similar to the Valley state schools and better than Drake, which has lower academic standards than the 3 Iowa state schools.
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 10, 2021, 09:26:01 AMOur teams are in the bottom half of all sports a
Ignorance can be blissful. Not to mention our men's golf team which will compete for a championship, our women's basketball team who beat two Big Ten teams and lost to a third in overtime. Even our men' team tied for fifth.
Try to do a little research before posting your blanket statements. As for timing of ARC improvement, it will be small upgrades for probably the next five years or so. Incremental positives (and related costs) are being made--new baskets and floor this year, the new practice facility recently-- while major costs in other sports continue to be made--like internet broadcast abilities now at softball and baseball, plus the new turf at Em Bauer. Yes, it's slow. Money is all that's needed.
Success in third level sports the majority has no concern about and will be gone in the NCAA is not what I'm referring to.
All joking aside I get your point. I just want a legit facility for basketball. The high school gym doesn't suffice.
Quote from: vu72 on October 10, 2021, 02:03:51 PM
Try to do a little research before posting your blanket statements. As for timing of ARC improvement, it will be small upgrades for probably the next five years or so. Incremental positives (and related costs) are being made--new baskets and floor this year, the new practice facility recently-- while major costs in other sports continue to be made--like internet broadcast abilities now at softball and baseball, plus the new turf at Em Bauer. Yes, it's slow. Money is all that's needed.
Speaking of incremental improvements, it'll be interesting to see how the alcohol sales affect attendance and revenue. They say you can't lose money on alcohol and, to me, there's no doubt it's a draw, so I hope it's potential downsides can be managed successfully.
My feeling is having a beer and being entertained goes hand in hand. It will make the experience better, and in our multitasking world a beer or 2 is always welcoming.
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 10, 2021, 06:54:07 PM
My feeling is having a beer and being entertained goes hand in hand. It will make the experience better, and in our multitasking world a beer or 2 is always welcoming.
-just hope one will not have to wait on long concession lines to get a nice cold brew :cheers:
This might actually spur ARC renovations happening at a faster rate. People will become more acutely aware of the inadequacies and inefficiencies of the facility if the alcohol sales cause long bathroom lines. So not only will we make more money we will also get an upgraded arena faster. This is an absolute win!
Southland and OVC to announce FCS football scheduling alliance for nonconference games.
http://ovcsports.com/news/2021/10/8/ohio-valley-conference-and-southland-conference-announce-football-scheduling-alliance.aspx
I don't think this has an effect one way or the other. From what I read in an article about it this is to provide stability for both conference in non-conference scheduling which they're both going to need given their recent membership losses. This is not like the ASUN-WAC arrangement where both conferences have pooled their teams together to vie for an auto bid. This is perhaps a sign of confidence from both leagues that despite the rumors (SELA and McNeese State leaving the Southland and Murray State or possibly Tennessee State leaving the OVC) none of that is actually going to come to fruition and both conferences will hang on to their respective autobids. This would seem to indicate one of two things:
1. Murray State is going to be allowed to park its football program in the OVC even if they leave
2. The OVC has held firm leveraging football since Murray State has no other option at this time and Murray State is not coming.
I think option 2 is more likely.
Though I suppose it is possible that both the Southland and OVC will continue to expand and bolster their football ranks but without much smoke on that it's hard to say anything definite. Moreover, and this is a total shot in the dark guess on my part, maybe the Big South would take them given that they will lose North Alabama and Kennesaw State after this year as they begin ASUN play. They would only be at 7 members and perhaps would like an eighth to make things a bit easier for scheduling purposes? The geography isn't a terrific fit for Murray or for the conference though which makes it feel a bit unlikely.
The longer we wait the more I think Murray is stuck and football might be the biggest reason why.
However there might be a (somewhat convoluted) workaround if we can get the cooperation of WIU and Northern Colorado.... Here's the outline of that that I just sketched off the top of my head:
If I understand how exit fees work for conferences like the OVC if you give a full two years' notice of departure you get out with no fee right? So how about this? Murray State announces their intention to leave the OVC in July 2024 thereby giving both the OVC and Murray State two years to figure out their football situation. By then Murray should be able to find an affiliation somewhere if not the MVFC outright and the OVC should have time to find new members so that their autobid isn't threatened while Murray gets out without paying a dime and the MVC has time to integrate Belmont before welcoming in the Racers. This also unwinds any scheduling issues that the MVFC may have. Or.. There's always this potential solution:
Let's assume Western Illinois is willing to go to the OVC and Northern Colorado is willing to go to the Summit League. Those moves get announced which means:
WIU leaves the MVFC for the OVC leaving the MVFC at 10 members
The Summit League and MVFC schools essentially just trade one desired target for another. The Summit League schools get Northern Colorado the MVFC schools get Murray State. The MVFC stands at 12 and everyone's happy.
If WIU won't leave then perhaps the conference could add Robert Morris to go to 14 along with the other two but if Murray State's football isn't good enough for the MVFC then Robert Morris's sure as heck isn't going to be so that's probably a non-starter.
The concern here I guess would be that the MVFC would then have the power to split off from the Summit League schools but I can't see that being an option either side would pursue given the success of the partnership.
I have read that when North Dakota was admitted to the MVFC there may have been some sort of a quid pro quo agreement that the Dakota schools would not block the admission of a team like Murray State into the MVFC. That doesn't appear to actually be the case though because I would have thought it would be done by now if the agreement actually was in place.
Unless of course the cause of the wrangling isn't football but the same academic and market crap we've heard about over and over again that doesn't hold water.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 12, 2021, 08:28:48 AM
This might actually spur ARC renovations happening at a faster rate. People will become more acutely aware of the inadequacies and inefficiencies of the facility if the alcohol sales cause long bathroom lines. So not only will we make more money we will also get an upgrading arena faster. This is an absolute win!
As '72 said, all it takes is money. Unfortunately, Valpo has no money to spare, so unless a donor pops up out of nowhere...
We just collected $300M. Time to spend baby!
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 12, 2021, 11:20:43 AM
We just collected $300M. Time to spend baby!
Those people didn't give their money for athletics they gave it to strengthen the endowment. I have a feeling the people giving the money are in the majority that don't feel it's appropriate to give the money for athletics. That just happens to be the way it is at Valpo.
Bbtds - yep, and that's why in athletics we continue to have a commitment to being safe and mediocre. Sad indeed. You can't make a Van Gogh why crayolas and a cheap coloring book.
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 12, 2021, 01:56:31 PM
Bbtds - yep, and that's why in athletics we continue to have a commitment to being safe and mediocre. Sad indeed. You can't make a Van Gogh why crayolas and a cheap coloring book.
I used to rail on the Administration with the best of them, just like you're doing now. I knew that "Project 6000" was a fool hearty notion that defied logic in every respect. I wondered then (and I still do) if the university "overbuilt" (meaning overspent) on academic facilities on a pipe dream that never had chance of becoming reality. That said, whatever the past administration should have done differently to better address basketball facility needs is long in the rear view mirror. I have great faith in President Padilla's ability to exercise better judgement over such matters. That said, enrollment is down substantially, and not just at Valpo. It's a university system problem that spans all 50 states. Like it or not, we're all in survival mode right now. Among my wife, my 3 adult children, and myself, we have 9 alma maters, one of which is Valpo. All 9 are struggling. The last thing any of them should be doing right now IMO is spending a bunch of money on athletic facilities. As much as I love Valpo men's basketball, none of my donations are going to athletics right now. Again, President Padilla will get this figured out. We just need to be patient.
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 10, 2021, 09:57:01 AM
1314 - good points but trust me on this - with the exception of Loyola, NW Mo St bastketball last year was better than any MVC team. Their players are better fundamentally, have height, talent - they would have wiped Valpo off the floor. My thought is out of the box and it's a university on the upswing.
SFA would be an ideal MVC candidate. Tapping into the Texas market where student are from Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston make sense. also, we can get Buc-ees, the greatest interstate stop chain in human existence, to sponsor the MVC tournament!
Regarding Valpo progressing with facilities - those are nice words but how long will this take? Actions are required expeditiously.
I respect your personal connection to SFA, but no one cares about that school in DFW, unless you attended. There is no 'tapping into' the TX market in adding SFA.
Quote from: bbtds on October 12, 2021, 12:21:00 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 12, 2021, 11:20:43 AM
We just collected $300M. Time to spend baby!
Those people didn't give their money for athletics they gave it to strengthen the endowment. I have a feeling the people giving the money are in the majority that don't feel it's appropriate to give the money for athletics. That just happens to be the way it is at Valpo.
I have mentioned this before, but raising $300M for endowment does not mean that Valpo collected $300M. This money is a commitment to donate money. Some of it is money directly donated, but a substantial majority is commitments from donors to donate the money over time – either via installments or via money that has been earmarked in peoples' estates. Further, as bbts and others point out, it is very likely that most of this is targeted to scholarships, specific teaching or research programs, or other activities consistent with the university's mission (of which basketball and athletics are just a few of many activities). The university cannot use money in a manner that is different from what was agreed to with the donor. There is probably a small portion of this endowment that is targeted to athletics, but (for the reasons stated by bbts and wh) my guess is that this is a small portion of the $300M...and much of that money will gradually become available over many years.
Quote from: vu84v2 on October 13, 2021, 08:39:00 AM
Quote from: bbtds on October 12, 2021, 12:21:00 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 12, 2021, 11:20:43 AM
We just collected $300M. Time to spend baby!
Those people didn't give their money for athletics they gave it to strengthen the endowment. I have a feeling the people giving the money are in the majority that don't feel it's appropriate to give the money for athletics. That just happens to be the way it is at Valpo.
I have mentioned this before, but raising $300M for endowment does not mean that Valpo collected $300M. This money is a commitment to donate money. Some of it is money directly donated, but a substantial majority is commitments from donors to donate the money over time – either via installments or via money that has been earmarked in peoples' estates. Further, as bbts and others point out, it is very likely that most of this is targeted to scholarships, specific teaching or research programs, or other activities consistent with the university's mission (of which basketball and athletics are just a few of many activities). The university cannot use money in a manner that is different from what was agreed to with the donor. There is probably a small portion of this endowment that is targeted to athletics, but (for the reasons stated by bbts and wh) my guess is that this is a small portion of the $300M...and much of that money will gradually become available over many years.
A very kind explanation aimed at those who either just don't get it or just want to blow off steam. What $300,000 gift is in question anyway?
It might have been in the Torch interview but I believe Padilla said that he views the next focus on fundraising to be on updating outdated buildings. Specifically our Nursing facilities, Business building, and Athletics facilities. He didn't indicate an order but my guess is that with the growth and continued academic success of our nursing program that would be the first target.
The Endowment is important because it allows us to continue to take more and more annual funding "off the books" which means that there is less pressure on tuition to keep the entire institution afloat. Well funded scholarship pools mean that discount rates become less harmful. Professors and programs funded in full mean we have the flexibility to grow in ways that are necessary. Also, the larger the endowment you have the more options you have. I also have heard that there is going to be increased focus on development of all the land that is available to create additional revenue streams. I've heard talk of a retirement community near the campus, a nearby hotel with event spaces, and solar farms as ideas tossed around.
All of these things are good and will do more towards helping free money up towards athletics than just hoping for a big donor to solve all our problems.
Quote from: crusader05 on October 13, 2021, 09:37:57 AMIt might have been in the Torch interview but I believe Padilla said that he views the next focus on fundraising to be on updating outdated buildings. Specifically our Nursing facilities, Business building, and Athletics facilities. He didn't indicate an order but my guess is that with the growth and continued academic success of our nursing program that would be the first target.
That is what he said at Homecoming at the Honor's Breakfast. Specifically, he said that the Nursing College is now spread out in three buildings and having recently visited a Nursing facility at a community college, it was obvious that we need to move on this and quickly. As for the Business College he mentioned that the technology was just way out dated and either it would require a new building or a major overhaul. As for Athletics he said that the ARC was just not up to par with Valley competition and we need to move on that soon. He said that the current drive would end next June and then a very brief "victory lap" before moving on with these projects. He said "don't put your wallets away just too quickly!
Not to suggest that our current bb venue is acceptable, but I will say this. I think I can say with 100% certainty that every scholarship member of our men's basketball team chose Valpo over schools with better basketball facilities. In fact, on paper our talent level compares favorably to any program in the league IMO. I don't know exactly what that says, but at a minimum it must be that fancy basketball venues are not important to a lot of players.
Not sure what the most ridiculous thing ever posted on the board is but "with the exception of Loyola, NW Mo St bastketball last year was better than any MVC team" is at a height which might never be beaten.
Quote from: may know on October 13, 2021, 03:53:49 PM
Not sure what the most ridiculous thing ever posted on the board is but "with the exception of Loyola, NW Mo St bastketball last year was better than any MVC team" is at a height which might never be beaten.
Are you sure about that? How about claiming that Steven F. Austin State University would be a great fit for the Valley:
NCAA brings down the hammer on Stephen F. Austin college athletics"Here is everything SFA will lose/be forced to vacate, according to East Texas Matters:
•117 men's basketball wins (including the 2016 •NCAA tournament win over West Virginia)
•112 baseball victories
•31 softball wins
•29 football wins
•Three men's basketball conference championships
•Three years of probation;
•Public reprimand and censure;
•A fine of $5,000 plus one-half of one percent of the total budgets for football and men's basketball;
•The return of 50 percent of the University's financial share earned from participation in the 2016 NCAA Tournament
•Included in the vacation of wins are conference championships in men's basketball in 2014-15, 2015-16 and 2017-18, as well as the program's First Round win in the 2016 NCAA Tournament.
•The banners recognizing those achievements will be removed from William R. Johnson Coliseum.
•A 2.5% reduction in financial aid awards (scholarships) in football for 2020-2021 and 2021-2022; a 5% reduction in baseball in either 2020-21 or 2021-2022 and the loss of one scholarship in men's basketball in either 2020-2021 or 2021-22.
•Prior to the conclusion of the probationary period, the institution will submit to a data review with APP staff.
Good lord... This is as close to the 'Death Penalty" as we're going to see from the NCAA in the year 2020." https://www.on3.com/teams/kentucky-wildcats/news/ncaa-brings-down-the-hammer-on-stephen-f-austin-college-athletics/
May know - you may want to see how well NW Mo St has done in basketball the past 5 years. They were better than Valpo last year and better coached.
Wh - did the punishment meet the crime?
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 14, 2021, 07:00:40 AMMay know - you may want to see how well NW Mo St has done in basketball the past 5 years. They were better than Valpo last year and better coached.
I just can't get behind this statement. However lofty their accomplishments might be they were still against D2 competition. To imply that Valpo wouldn't absolutely clean up against the same competition when we were a middle of the pack MVC team who beat a ranked Drake team and played Loyola tough seems misguided to me. NW Missouri State might have a good coach but a team in our conference just hired a D2 coach and it wasn't him. I'm very much a skeptic/critic of Lottich but even I know he'd do well against D2 teams. Additionally Indiana State is probably going to finish behind Valpo for several years despite having a coach that they must believe is even better than the guy you're touring. Again I'm sure he's a fine coach for his level but I doubt he'd waltz into the MVC and dominate like you think he will especially not against what the MVC is projected to be over the next few years. Do you think Belmont will come in and dominate? If not then I can't see how you think a D2 school could.
Quote from: usc4valpo on October 14, 2021, 07:03:19 AMWh - did the punishment meet the crime?
Whether or not the punishment fit the crime (and I think you raise a legitimate point there in light of the fact that in recent years we've had literal fake classes at UNC multiple schools in the Big 10 covering up for literal crimes (Penn St Michigan St) and all manner of financial impropriety at schools like Kansas) the point remains this: If one of the potential sticking points for Murray State who has had no such APR trouble that I can see at any point recently is academics as has been alleged then a school with the record of SFA has ABSOLUTELY no chance of an MVC invite.
Another point I think we all miss that dawned on me recently is that while there have always been two justice systems in the NCAA I don't think the NCAA can actually functionally do anything to schools like UNC Louisville Michigan State Penn State Kansas Arizona etc) without the schools' approval because of the schools' autonomous status. I have no proof that this plays a role but it would certainly explain such blatant leniency in nearly every case.
hey guys just thinking outside of the box.
One thing is for certain though if we are in fact stopping after the Belmont addition and going with 11 teams and 20 games (which was SUCH a non starter a few years ago What the heck changed?) then non D1s need to be banned as we have even fewer opportunities as a conference to make our at large cases in the non conference. Can't waste them anymore. if that means one less home game every year then so be it.
Following is a highly informative article about the huge enrollment challenges colleges and universities will be facing over the next decade. Of course, it's written from a Wheaton perspective, but something caught my eye relative to MVC expansion. As I highlighted below, the biggest challenges going forward in the Midwest are going to be faced by "regional" universities. This applies to many/most MVC schools, due to changing demographics.
Then, consider what Missouri State's president said about how adding Texas-Arlington could help with recruiting regular students. My point is that these college presidents have a lot more to consider than simply who has the best bb program. Belmont opens up the south and T-A would open up Texas, which unlike the Midwest and the rust belt is growing in population.
As colleges and universities across the nation face a precipitous cliff of enrollment challenges, Wheaton strategically positions itself for the future.
Silvio E. Vazquez, Chief Enrollment Management Officer
Grawe categorizes institutions of higher learning into the following sectors: two- and four-year public schools; regionally and nationally ranked colleges; and the elites, or hyper-selective universities. The data reveals that the drop in enrollment numbers varies significantly depending on the type of institution. According to Grawe, it is the regional institutions that rely heavily on their surrounding populations that will struggle more than the nationally ranked or elite universities. This is data worth noting, because 48 percent of Wheaton's students come from the American Midwest, with about 22 percent from Illinois. Most demographers declare that this region will see a greater than 15 percent decline in populations seeking private education. When considering Illinois alone, the prognosis is sobering, with predictions that we will reach the "cliff" in 2025—18 years after the 2008 economic collapse—as a result of a dramatic drop in birth rates.
The good news, however, is that according to Grawe's calculations, Wheaton fits into the nationally ranked grouping, meaning that change is coming but the predicted loss is not as great as it would be if we were simply a regional school.
https://magazine.wheaton.edu/stories/autumn-2019-up-to-the-challenge-addressing-the-shifting-landscape-of-christian-higher-education
The biggest enrollment challenge is created by today's technology oriented workplace where you don't need a four year degree to have a satisfying well paying career. If a good job is all you want out of education why not just two years at community college and not start life $100,000 in debt?
Apparently football is the holdup of Murray State's inclusion to the MVC. The Olympic side of it is basically a done deal according to this article. I hope that's true and the football issue gets resolved soon.
https://www.inforum.com/bison-media-zone/mens-sports/football/7237320-LIVE-BLOG-Join-the-Sunday-Night-Bison-Live-Chat-with-the-InForum-sports-team-starting-at-9-p.m.
Also keep an eye on Wichita State. I am certain they will be looking around after this news because these basketball additions are not good.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-932357.html
I doubt the Big East or Atlantic 10 will be fits for the Shockers. I think the Mountain West now that they have been cut off from Texas (assuming these schools are going to be accepted into the AAC) are going to go in a basketball centric direction. That could mean just adding Gonzaga or adding 3 (Gonzaga Wichita State St Mary's). if the MWC decides not to expand then their only option is to stay in this declining AAC or come back to the Valley. Murray State Wichita State and whatever private add balances this out will be a heck of a 14 team league! I am beginning to dream big: SLU Dayton or Tulsa MIGHT be possible though since most of those football programs are decent Tulsa is probably happy in the AAC unlike Wichita State. We might have to settle for an ORU or taking a gamble on a Detroit or St Thomas or treating a non football public (Milwaukee or NKU for instance) like a private school if we went to 14.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 18, 2021, 07:39:26 PM
Also keep an eye on Wichita State. I am certain they will be looking around after this news because these basketball additions are not good.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-932357.html
If those schools join the AAC, Wichita State's exodus from the MVC officially becomes a demotion. This is what can happen when a university moves to a football-centric conference to elevate their basketball program. I don't know how they could have anticipated this at the time, but theyre not in a good place right now.
Interestingly, their fans think the AAC will still be better than the MVC, and that it won't even be close. The reality is once the MVC adds Belmont and Murray State the opposite will be true. Like Butler from days past, this demonstrates that there is no correlation between a winning basketball program and a knowledgeable fan base.
BTW, I would suggest that the MVC not chase after WSU. The league is strong without them. Force them to make the first move, and if they're interested, tell them they'll have to pay their own exit fees to leave the AAC and pay sticker price to re-join the Valley. They left the Valley for greener pastures and acted arrogantly on their way out the door. Force them to show some humility if they want to come back.
Quote from: vu84v2 on October 17, 2021, 10:11:18 AM
Quote from: bbtds on October 16, 2021, 11:06:23 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on October 13, 2021, 08:39:00 AM(for the reasons stated by bbts and wh)
Quote from: vu84v2 on October 13, 2021, 08:39:00 AMas bbts and others point out,
Who's that guy?
Oops! Sorry for not properly citing you bbtds.
that's okay,
vu84v3, ooops,
vu94v2,
vu69v4, vu84v2, ;)
As much as I dislike ORU and think the academics are dreadful, you should take a look at the facilities. https://oruathletics.com/facilities/oneok-sports-complex/6 (https://oruathletics.com/facilities/oneok-sports-complex/6)
They have really improved over the years. I went to high school with the current Athletic Director. He's pretty impressive and pretty young to be an AD. The complete opposite of the former AD, Mike Carter.
It appears to be a lot of corporate donations. Nowadays, I would think it would be difficult to get corporate donations as a highly religious school.
They had a good run last year in the NCAAT, but outside of that......no success in a long time. I vote no, for ORU.
Quote from: oklahomamick on October 19, 2021, 12:34:38 PMAs much as I dislike ORU and think the academics are dreadful, you should take a look at the facilities. https://oruathletics.com/facilities/oneok-sports-complex/6 (https://oruathletics.com/facilities/oneok-sports-complex/6) They have really improved over the years. I went to high school with the current Athletic Director. He's pretty impressive and pretty young to be an AD. The complete opposite of the former AD, Mike Carter. It appears to be a lot of corporate donations. Nowadays, I would think it would be difficult to get corporate donations as a highly religious school. They had a good run last year in the NCAAT, but outside of that......no success in a long time. I vote no, for ORU.
They're a wait and see candidate unless we need a 14th immediately and that 14th has to be a private school and schools like Dayton SLU and Tulsa aren't interested. And even then I wouldn't necessarily fault the league for looking at a school like St Thomas first instead though their status as a newly-transitioned D1 member makes me a bit nervous about adding them. I will need more than this one run to really fully be on board with ORU but they flashed some promise this past year (if they can win the Summit this year and make the tournament and win again they become a lot more interesting and their facilities and budget look good. I do worry about academics and culture with them much more than I do with Murray State and that will certainly take longer to fix. If Murray State is having some trouble getting in because of their academic profile then the presidents of the MVC will definitely hate the prospect of sharing a conference with ORU. Frankly I don't see an issue with a non football playing public acting as a pseudo-private school in any expansion past 12. You'd have some decent candidates there in NKU and to a lesser extent Little Rock Wright State Milwaukee and UIC if they wanted to double up in Chicago).
Realignment only becomes more interesting as AAC is picking up all the Texas Schools from CUSA. CUSA will then need to add some schools. Would Missouri State like to make that jump to CUSA? Or the SunBelt who may need to add some teams due CUSA raiding them? Should be a fun ride.
Would be awesome, but probably as far fetch as picking up SLU or Dayton, but Rice would be a good pickup for MVC.
Quote from: oklahomamick on October 19, 2021, 01:59:31 PMRealignment only becomes more interesting as AAC is picking up all the Texas Schools from CUSA. CUSA will then need to add some schools. Would Missouri State like to make that jump to CUSA? Or the SunBelt who may need to add some teams due CUSA raiding them? Should be a fun ride. Would be awesome, but probably as far fetch as picking up SLU or Dayton, but Rice would be a good pickup for MVC.
AAC basketball is going to SUCK going forward especially after Memphis and (possibly) SMU leave. Wichita State would be wise to get out. I really don't love the path the AAC has chosen for the future of the conference. This approach didn't work for CUSA why would it work for the AAC with the exact same schools? It just seems dumb to me. Missouri State would be foolish to jump to CUSA right now even though it's possible the league could end up better off having shed a lot of dead weight. No to Rice as an MVC candidate. Great market Great academics but far away and they absolutely suck in every sport except baseball.
Baseball is a big deal in the MVC. I would take Rice if they were on the table.
Memphis and SMU aren't going anywhere.
Quote from: oklahomamick on October 19, 2021, 03:04:45 PMBaseball is a big deal in the MVC. I would take Rice if they were on the table. Memphis and SMU aren't going anywhere.
I believe Memphis especially has a shot at the Big XII if they do open up a second round of expansion as has been rumored. SMU also has a shot but I have my doubts as to whether or not they will get in.
Some (seemingly) VERY positive smoke for those of us who are pro Murray to the MVC. This seems like a move made with an invite forthcoming. I think Father Harry is being coy while the final details are being sorted out. The fact that this is the exact same thing Belmont did just before joining doesn't seem like a coincidence.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1450563705360502788
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1450563896234979337
'1314 - I'm not aware of anyone who is anti-Murray State. The difference between you and me is I'm open to other options, as the search committee may see fit. You're not. Correct?
Quote from: wh on October 19, 2021, 05:31:49 PM'1314 - I'm not aware of anyone who is anti-Murray State. The difference between you and me is I'm open to other options, as the search committee may see fit. You're not. Correct?
That wasn't meant to be a shot at you or anyone in particular. Just good news for the pro expansion side in general. I wouldn't say I'm not open to other alternatives I just think that almost anybody we could add outside of an extremely short list is far behind Murray State in terms of potential positive impact for the conference. For instance if the MVC added South Dakota State or NKU or even Little Rock (although I've cooled on them a bit) I wouldn't hate the move I just would have felt like Murray State was and is a much better use of that twelfth spot. I'd be pretty upset if the add was something like UT-Arlington or UIC or Milwaukee (unless I heard a lot about Milwaukee or UIC spending a bunch of money to compete in the MVC as a condition of the invite.) Like yeah if a Wichita State came available I would obviously see them as more valuable than Murray State but in that case I would advocate an expansion to 14 because I think Murray State is that potentially valuable\impactful for the conference.
I think we both want the same thing for the conference (to be as strong and viable in the changing landscape as possible) but maybe have different visions of what that looks like. For instance, I would welcome the Shockers back with open arms if they came back. Their potential impact on the conference is so great that we'd be stupid not to let bygones be bygones and let them back in. I don't even think I would put the same conditions on their return as you would. I guess I'm looking at this from a purely pragmatic and athletic lens which you might expect me to do as a fan. Like many of us I view athletics as the front porch to the university and that athletics can and does serve the larger goals and mission of the university in that success breeds exposure and enrollment. I do realize there are other considerations on the presidential side of things I just don't think they are as valuable in our mid major world as they might be if we were a power league whose status wouldn't be threatened by one or two expansion missteps (like the Big 10 for instance).
If the MVC screws up an expansion addition they risk alienating their flagship members and losing them to other conferences or tanking their chance at at large bids and the additional tournament credits that they bring which are so vital to our programs. If the Big 10 screws up (cough adding Rutgers Cough) nobody is any worse off. They get the cable revenue from being in the market Rutgers inhabits in ways that leagues like the MVC never would even if the major market team is good, they still make bank off the tournament every year, none of their teams is severely threatened with losing an at large bid, they're still in the CFP frequently, and nobody is going to leave because the partnership on both the athletic and academic side of things is so deep and important to the member institutions. There's really nowhere better for them to go even if they aren't thrilled by what Rutgers and Maryland have brought outside of the extra money from cable subscriptions that is. By contrast, the MVC must thrive on performance and taking the fight to these power conference teams by assembling the greatest collection of programs possible with market and institutional considerations being by necessity distantly secondary concerns.
In the case of a potential Wichita State return, there would certainly be hurt feelings that need to be smoothed over and maybe a little bit of humility needed on the part of the Shockers and their fans but I would welcome them back because they can help this conference get where we all want it to go. Just as I believe that moreso than any other potential addition (and right now I don't fully consider Wichita State as a reasonable potential target because there's still too much to be sorted out there) Murray State can help this conference achieve its goals. They are the distant #1 option in my mind. Then a few meh schools who might help. And then there are other schools that probably hurt us in our goals and I would not be happy to see them added.
I poached these Commissioner Jackson's expansion comments from the article posted by Just Sayin on another thread. Nothing he said would lead me to believe that adding Murray State (or anyone else) is imminent.
Jackson on expansion — Conference realignment continues to shake the world of college athletics. The MVC got into the mix when it added Belmont in late September. However, early October scuttlebutt that Murray State would join the MVC as the 12th league member has not come to pass. Jackson feels no pressure to add a school just for the sake of adding one or for any other reason.
"We're not desperate. We're in a position where we have great institutions with great leadership. If somebody comes on the radar that our [expansion] council thinks can enhance us, then we'd have conversations with those schools about membership," Jackson said. "But I don't think we're in a situation where something has to be done or we have to react to what a conference like the American is doing to replenish their coffers."
Jackson also doesn't feel the MVC is in danger of being poached.
"So much of what is really driving this is based around football. I don't know if you want to call it a shield, but we're a basketball-centric and most of our conversations focus on that," Jackson said.
"So much of what is really driving this is based around football. I don't know if you want to call it a shield beacon, but we're a basketball-centric and most of our conversations focus on that," Jackson said.
Quote from: wh on October 21, 2021, 07:26:19 AMI poached these Commissioner Jackson's expansion comments from the article posted by Just Sayin on another thread. Nothing he said would lead me to believe that adding Murray State (or anyone else) is imminent. Jackson on expansion — Conference realignment continues to shake the world of college athletics. The MVC got into the mix when it added Belmont in late September. However, early October scuttlebutt that Murray State would join the MVC as the 12th league member has not come to pass. Jackson feels no pressure to add a school just for the sake of adding one or for any other reason. "We're not desperate. We're in a position where we have great institutions with great leadership. If somebody comes on the radar that our [expansion] council thinks can enhance us, then we'd have conversations with those schools about membership," Jackson said. "But I don't think we're in a situation where something has to be done or we have to react to what a conference like the American is doing to replenish their coffers." Jackson also doesn't feel the MVC is in danger of being poached. "So much of what is really driving this is based around football. I don't know if you want to call it a shield, but we're a basketball-centric and most of our conversations focus on that," Jackson said.
So we're a basketball centric league who is concentrated on basketball-centric additions that feels no pressure to add a school that has had 3 NCAA Tournament wins and 2 top 25 rankings and 3 NBA Draftees (including two lottery picks) since 2010? Yeah... That doesn't wash... How does that not "Enhance us?" How is adding a school with that profile a "desperation" add? That's not adding for the sake of adding. That's a dream addition to a conference like ours if we really are as basketball centric as we claim to be. He's blowing up all the institutional and market-based concerns that have been brought up before with this statement. So what's the excuse for not pulling the trigger now?
Here's the one bit of hope I take from Jackson's words though (added after a brief moment of reflection) Jackson is not targeting rash reactive decisions which means we're probably not going to jump quickly at a school meaning we are engaged in a thorough vetting process for schools because we are in a position that allows us to be selective about who we add. A school like Murray State checks the boxes if we are prioritizing basketball for additions so hopefully we will hear that they are adding the Murray State because it fits the bill of a strong addition to help the MVC capitalize on its position of relative strength and stability in this period of realignment. We don't have to make rash adds like the AAC are doing, we can afford to pick the best candidates possible to grow the league. If that's the approach then Murray State fits the bill and we should be adding them. I hope that's what he really means.
The fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.
Quote from: wh on October 21, 2021, 09:26:46 AMThe fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.
Except that he just said that basketball was the most important and guiding factor... That's what I took from the article and that's why I'm confused and annoyed at this point... This is taking SO LONG Just say we're not doing anything then so I can be mad for a couple weeks and then get ready for the season Or if we're doing something then let's have the announcement already so I can celebrate the great and bright future of Valley hoops that will have only gotten brighter and then get ready for the season with lots to look forward to now and in the future!
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 21, 2021, 10:00:05 AMQuote from: wh on October 21, 2021, 09:26:46 AMThe fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.
Except that he just said that basketball was the most important and guiding factor... That's what I took from the article and that's why I'm confused and annoyed at this point... This is taking SO LONG Just say we're not doing anything then so I can be mad for a couple weeks and then get ready for the season Or if we're doing something then let's have the announcement already so I can celebrate the great and bright future of Valley hoops that will have only gotten brighter and then get ready for the season with lots to look forward to now and in the future!
I could also be that a deal is in the works but with Murray State having a football program, the details are much more complex than they were for someone like Belmont.
"We're not desperate. We're in a position where we have great institutions with great leadership. If somebody comes on the radar that our [expansion] council thinks can enhance us, then we'd have conversations with those schools about membership,"
To me that does not read as we are not adding someone else. That reads as if and when we add someone else, it will be for the right reasons, not because we lost 5 teams to another conference.
All I know is that if we don't get Murray State it better be because we got Wichita State instead. And even then I would advocate a move to 14 with dealer's choice on the 14th between Oral Roberts NKU South Dakota State or Little Rock. Though honestly if we pulled that off and they wanted to do a market\institutional school like Milwaukee UIC or UTA or a new to D1 add like St Thomas then I GUESS I would be on board with it.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 21, 2021, 10:00:05 AM
Quote from: wh on October 21, 2021, 09:26:46 AMThe fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.
Except that he just said that basketball was the most important and guiding factor... That's what I took from the article and that's why I'm confused and annoyed at this point... This is taking SO LONG Just say we're not doing anything then so I can be mad for a couple weeks and then get ready for the season Or if we're doing something then let's have the announcement already so I can celebrate the great and bright future of Valley hoops that will have only gotten brighter and then get ready for the season with lots to look forward to now and in the future!
I think you're taking what he said out of context. He was making the point that all the current ado revolves around football, which doesn't apply to the MVC as a basketball-centric conference. Nothing deeper than that. BTW, Dayton fans make the identical argument about being jilted by the Big East. They thought they should have been chosen over Butler because they have a historically strong program and they're Catholic. Now they're claiming they're more a natural fit than ever, giving the BE an even 12 teams. There's no more bb-centric conference anywhere than the BE. What don't they get about Dayton, right?
Quote from: wh on October 21, 2021, 10:35:55 AMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on October 21, 2021, 10:00:05 AMQuote from: wh on October 21, 2021, 09:26:46 AMThe fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.
Except that he just said that basketball was the most important and guiding factor... That's what I took from the article and that's why I'm confused and annoyed at this point... This is taking SO LONG Just say we're not doing anything then so I can be mad for a couple weeks and then get ready for the season Or if we're doing something then let's have the announcement already so I can celebrate the great and bright future of Valley hoops that will have only gotten brighter and then get ready for the season with lots to look forward to now and in the future!
I think you're taking what he said out of context. He was making the point that all the current ado revolves around football, which doesn't apply to the MVC as a basketball-centric conference. Nothing deeper than that. BTW, Dayton fans make the identical argument about being jilted by the Big East. They thought they should have been chosen over Butler because they have a historically strong program and they're Catholic. Now they're claiming they're more a natural fit than ever, giving the BE an even 12 teams. There's no more bb-centric conference anywhere than the BE. What don't they get about Dayton, right?
I'm with the Dayton fans on that one. They are a natural hand in glove fit for the BE. Great fan support great facilities great tradition institutional and geographic fit in a growing market (Cincinnati and Dayton is getting steadily bigger and possibly merging into one DMA soon in which case it would make a lot of sense to double up with the two teams being separated by an hour or so trip. Allowing Xavier to block Dayton would be more of a detriment to the league then I think many realize. The right play for the Big East is 14 teams with SLU Dayton and whatever they feel is better choice of Richmond and VCU. Balances east and west. Gives them two new markets and a second strong presence in another top 40 market and adds a LOT of basketball quality with institutional fits. That would be a huge win for the Big East.
Sounds like things will get worse for the AAC before they get better If I were Wichita State I would start getting my contingency plans in order if I haven't been doing so already.
https://www.dmagazine.com/sports/2021/10/big-12-commissioner-bob-bowlsby-opens-up-about-the-ut-ou-departure-and-more/?ref=feat-sect
Big XII commissioner Bob Bowlsby when asked about SMU brings up Memphis and Boise State completely unprompted. I think Memphis is gonezo just as soon as Texas and Oklahoma finalize their departures to the SEC.
if Sam Houston State leaves the WAC and McNeese State leaves the Southland maybe that is enough to resolve the Murray State football program issue. Maybe they can land as a temporary affiliate in either conference to grease the skids of their (hopeful) move to the MVC. I think the Southland would still be at six so they wouldn't need to and they have the scheduling agreement with the OVC which would complicate things. The WAC however I believe would drop to five members and may not be able to add another FCS transition member. Maybe Murray State could park their program there for a few years until the MVFC is ready for them (assuming that's the holdup) and give the WAC more time to assess the landscape and find and incorporate more FCS callups.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 21, 2021, 10:52:04 AM
I'm with the Dayton fans on that one. They are a natural hand in glove fit for the BE. Great fan support great facilities great tradition institutional and geographic fit in a growing market (Cincinnati and Dayton is getting steadily bigger and possibly merging into one DMA soon in which case it would make a lot of sense to double up with the two teams being separated by an hour or so trip. Allowing Xavier to block Dayton would be more of a detriment to the league then I think many realize. The right play for the Big East is 14 teams with SLU Dayton and whatever they feel is better choice of Richmond and VCU. Balances east and west. Gives them two new markets and a second strong presence in another top 40 market and adds a LOT of basketball quality with institutional fits. That would be a huge win for the Big East.
Dayton might be a logical fit just based on the schools in the league (same for SLU), but unless either one of these schools suddenly moves the TV needle or raking in tourney shares, there's not really a need to add anyone outside of potentially Gonzaga (and I guess St. Mary's if Gonzaga wants to try and build a West division of the league), and really outside of basketball, those schools would be a logistical nightmare. Teams really like the round robin aspect, so if the Big East is going to add anyone, it's going to REALLY need to be a home run. Dayton and SLU are singles, IMO. If it was solely about the Universities and their fit within the league, I'd be in complete agreement. The Big East added UConn because while the University is a terrible fit in the league, they really help the league keep MSG for the BE Tourney, and they are a program with natural rivalries with the East Coast Catholic schools and have proven they can get it done on the biggest stage.
The biggest takeaway here vis a vis MVC Expansion is that Liberty is no longer interested in CUSA. This is bad news because it makes the likelihood that CUSA will ultimately survive with FCS callups less likely meaning Murray State probably has fewer options to park its football program (assuming that's the holdup).
https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1451668085572788231?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1451668085572788231%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsnbbs.com%2Fthread-932952.html
New Mexico State Sam Houston State and Tarleton State being looked at by CUSA. This would blow a massive hole in the WAC and possibly allow for a Murray State affiliation somewhere to resolve the football hurdle assuming football is indeed the holdup.
https://twitter.com/petethamel/status/1451685076769587202?s=21
Not something we'd want to see.
https://twitter.com/mattbrownep/status/1452761371565776899?s=21
What would be the attraction of CUSA for Missouri State over MVC? CUSA is a very unstable conference with huge turnover.
Quote from: tjjvalpo on October 25, 2021, 09:15:42 PM
What would be the attraction of CUSA for Missouri State over MVC? CUSA is a very unstable conference with huge turnover.
FBS football.
They do have a desire to go FBS. Football would be elevated but basketball downgraded; but maybe they think they can dominate and dance more often.
This sucks... What's stopping Illinois State and UNI from doing the same? And then Belmont and Loyola will be looking around for a better home too probably... Yeah we'd still be in a better version of the HL based on who we could theoretically add but just losing Missouri State is a huge blow Losing even more would be absolutely horrible. We're in the middle of a great era and on the precipice of doing great things and the conference might be about to be ripped apart from within... I hate this... Yeah we still should have made the move and maybe we'll be fine but I hate this. I wanted this league to keep growing together and adding teams not losing them and having to hope the new additions will be as good. Just losing Missouri State is a heavy blow to everything that makes the Valley special. Baseball volleyball and men's and women's basketball wouldn't be as good.
Quote from: bb33 on October 26, 2021, 09:26:17 AM
They do have a desire to go FBS. Football would be elevated but basketball downgraded; but maybe they think they can dominate and dance more often.
Of course they think that. That's the Valley mindset. Get to the NCAA tournament once every 10 years on average and claim you would get there most every year if you played in any conference ranked lower than the Valley. There are never any bad teams in the Valley, just good and very good. Parity is always defined as multiple evenly matched good teams. Other Mids have multiple, evenly matched mediocre teams. That's Valley-speak.
Quote from: wh on October 26, 2021, 04:30:19 PMQuote from: bb33 on October 26, 2021, 09:26:17 AMThey do have a desire to go FBS. Football would be elevated but basketball downgraded; but maybe they think they can dominate and dance more often.
Of course they think that. That's the Valley mindset. Get to the NCAA tournament once every 10 years on average and claim you would get there most every year if you played in any conference ranked lower than the Valley. There are never any bad teams in the Valley, just good and very good. Parity is always defined as multiple evenly matched good teams. Other Mids have multiple, evenly matched mediocre teams. That's Valley-speak.
But is it wrong? I've seen years where the 9th best MVC school is better in the metrics than the 2nd or 3rd best HL or OVC school.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 26, 2021, 03:58:07 PM
This sucks... What's stopping Illinois State and UNI from doing the same? And then Belmont and Loyola will be looking around for a better home too probably... Yeah we'd still be in a better version of the HL based on who we could theoretically add but just losing Missouri State is a huge blow Losing even more would be absolutely horrible. We're in the middle of a great era and on the precipice of doing great things and the conference might be about to be ripped apart from within... I hate this... Yeah we still should have made the move and maybe we'll be fine but I hate this. I wanted this league to keep growing together and adding teams not losing them and having to hope the new additions will be as good. Just losing Missouri State is a heavy blow to everything that makes the Valley special. Baseball volleyball and men's and women's basketball wouldn't be as good.
Nothing. Stop worrying. It will be what it will be.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 26, 2021, 05:08:20 PM
Quote from: wh on October 26, 2021, 04:30:19 PMQuote from: bb33 on October 26, 2021, 09:26:17 AMThey do have a desire to go FBS. Football would be elevated but basketball downgraded; but maybe they think they can dominate and dance more often.
Of course they think that. That's the Valley mindset. Get to the NCAA tournament once every 10 years on average and claim you would get there most every year if you played in any conference ranked lower than the Valley. There are never any bad teams in the Valley, just good and very good. Parity is always defined as multiple evenly matched good teams. Other Mids have multiple, evenly matched mediocre teams. That's Valley-speak.
But is it wrong? I've seen years where the 9th best MVC school is better in the metrics than the 2nd or 3rd best HL or OVC school.
It's completely illogical. The ability to recruit best-available players becomes increasingly more difficult the lower the conference ranking. For instance, do you think Mosley and Prim would be playing for Missouri State if they were in the Summit or Horizon Leagues? Almost assuredly not. Thus, comparing yourself favorably against teams based on players you wouldn't have if you were in their shoes is intellectually dishonest.
Very nice and detailed article (from Springfield, Mo.) about the situation at Missouri State, the implications for football and basketball. It has great things to say about MVC basketball, both men's and women's.
https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2021/10/26/conference-usa-missouri-state-football-basketball-possibility-realignment-from-mvc/8545166002/ (https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2021/10/26/conference-usa-missouri-state-football-basketball-possibility-realignment-from-mvc/8545166002/)
(https://www.marriott.com/hotels/maps/travel/CPTWI-the-westin-cape-town/?maps)Convention Square, Lower Long Street, Cape Town 8000 [/url][/size][/font]
Quote from: wh on October 26, 2021, 08:06:42 PMdo you think Mosley and Prim would be playing for Missouri State if they were in the Summit or Horizon Leagues?
.
But they are exploring CUSA not Horizon or Summit. Very different. And the driving motivation is a move to FBS football, not basketball.
Quote from: bb33 on October 27, 2021, 11:05:05 AM
(https://www.marriott.com/hotels/maps/travel/CPTWI-the-westin-cape-town/?maps)Convention Square, Lower Long Street, Cape Town 8000 [/url][/size][/font]Quote from: wh on October 26, 2021, 08:06:42 PMdo you think Mosley and Prim would be playing for Missouri State if they were in the Summit or Horizon Leagues?
.
But they are exploring CUSA not Horizon or Summit. Very different. And the driving motivation is a move to FBS football, not basketball.
If Missouri State is truly considering a move to CUSA, their President should already have resigned from the MVC member search committee.
Can't disagree with this, except he did help bring on Belmont so he IS doing a good job on the expansion committee. And until the move is official, he isn't giving up that power.
He didn't shut the door outright but the Missouri State AD threw some massive cold water on those FBS rumors. Good. Now let's go pedal to the metal on the Murray State addition and keep looking for ways to make this league a league nobody wants to leave!
https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2021/10/28/conference-usa-missouri-state-basketball-football-possibility-realignment-mvc-moats/6184006001/
Some very interesting stuff RE: the CAA which appears to be imminently losing James Madison to the Sun Belt. They have apparently been vetting Fairfield Monmoth Greensboro Hampton Howard and North Carolina Central. Them taking one (or more) Big South members could be good news for a potential Murray State affiliation if football really is the only thing holding up their MVC invite. Hampton and Monmouth play in the Big South which currently has 9 members but will be losing Kennesaw State and North Alabama next year as the Atlantic Sun starts its football league. Of course if NC Central isn't picked and Hampton leaves for the CAA they are a very logical choice to be a direct replacement for the Pirates in the Big South but still there is room for affiliate members in the conference.
Article about Monmouth Fairfield Greensboro interest
https://richmond.com/sports/college/james-madison/caa-exploring-expansion-two-division-setup-that-would-reduce-travel-costs/article_4ee9823d-9db6-54eb-a34f-d152ab6de602.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share%E2%80%A6
Article about Howard Hampton NC Central Interest:
https://richmond.com/sports/college/james-madison/caa-expansion-exploration-includes-hampton-howard/article_ff341278-5fa7-50de-b935-0bbdc3c9bddc.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_RTDNEWS
Also possible speculation though less well sourced (not backed up by an article but from a verified Twitter account that College of Charleston and Elon might be considering a return to the SoCon.
https://twitter.com/CoachTO22/status/1453086855570903048?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1453086855570903048%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsnbbs.com%2Fthread-932930-page-6.html
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 26, 2021, 03:58:07 PMThis sucks... What's stopping Illinois State and UNI from doing the same? And then Belmont and Loyola will be looking around for a better home too probably... Yeah we'd still be in a better version of the HL based on who we could theoretically add but just losing Missouri State is a huge blow Losing even more would be absolutely horrible. We're in the middle of a great era and on the precipice of doing great things and the conference might be about to be ripped apart from within... I hate this... Yeah we still should have made the move and maybe we'll be fine but I hate this. I wanted this league to keep growing together and adding teams not losing them and having to hope the new additions will be as good. Just losing Missouri State is a heavy blow to everything that makes the Valley special. Baseball volleyball and men's and women's basketball wouldn't be as good.
UNI doesn't have the money and ISU isn't going to ruin their basketball program to go to the worst FBS conference with no rivals and spend all that extra money. This is also probably true for UNI.
It would make no sense for an MVC team to move to a severely reduced CUSA. You have to feel bad for the WAC, as they've held together for so long, and seemed to have a plan that was going to get them back to FBS eventually. Now, CUSA has become the new WAC, and the WAC will become the WAC of 8 years ago, when they had to get UMKC and Chicago State...
Will be interesting to see if the Texas WAC schools move over to CUSA or stay put in the WAC.
In my best Professor Hubert Farnsworth from Futurama voice: Good news everyone!
Matt Brown who has been really on it this realignment cycle (had the Belmont news before pretty much everyone for instance) has said that the WAC is expected to vote on adding McNeese State and University of the Incarnate Word both Southland members on Tuesday. That would leave the Southland very desperate for immediate membership. Murray State football affiliation and MVC invite incoming? (He hasn't said anything about Murray State partnering with the Southland that is my own speculation but it WOULD make sense if Murray State is willing to make the commitment).
https://csnbbs.com/thread-919257-page-21.html
He also says that upwards of four schools could leave the WAC soon. I wonder who they will be. I'm guessing New Mexico State (CUSA though I really don't think that move is worthwhile or necessary just for a football conference home) Seattle U (WCC) Cal Baptist (WCC or Big West) are three of them but I don't know who the fourth might be... Abeline Christian (to CUSA)? I guess it could be Tarleton State or Sam Houston State as well (This better not mean Missouri State is leaving the Valley by the way). Adding Murray State while losing Missouri State really lessens the potential impact of adding Murray State because you're replacing one solid program for another albeit better one in men's basketball at least which is the sport that matters. Honestly though we could really use the Murray State news as a distraction from our exhibition loss (especially if we lose again to the even better D2 team we have coming in in a few days). Get everyone excited about Murray State's inclusion so that maybe they forget for a little bit how bad we are.
Hey VUGrad1314, If all this shakes out and my Racers end up in the Valley, first Valpo conference road game in Murray, Im buying you a beer. Or a bourbon. Hell, maybe both.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on November 01, 2021, 03:53:15 PMHey VUGrad1314, If all this shakes out and my Racers end up in the Valley, first Valpo conference road game in Murray, Im buying you a beer. Or a bourbon. Hell, maybe both.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on November 01, 2021, 03:53:15 PMHey VUGrad1314, If all this shakes out and my Racers end up in the Valley, first Valpo conference road game in Murray, Im buying you a beer. Or a bourbon. Hell, maybe both.
I might just have to take you up on that one day. Of course, you are also welcome to come on up to Valpo if you can make it and if you do, then it would be my pleasure to welcome you! We just started serving beer at games so I can return your offer as well! (we don't have bourbon though and you wouldn't want Indiana bourbon even if we did because everybody knows Kentucky has the best and really the only bourbon that matters.) It would be cool to meet people I have interacted with on these boards in person. Is Murray a nice place to visit in wintertime?
[size=78%] [/size]
Now this.... Could be significant...
https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1455339497248460804?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1455339497248460804%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsnbbs.com%2Fthread-934092-page-2.html
Jacksonville State leaving the A-Sun opens up a geographically sensible pairing for the conference of Murray State FB only and Southern Indiana from D2 for Olympic sports and could clear the way for Murray to the MVC. If nothing else it gives Murray State another option if they absolutely want out of the OVC which increases their leverage not that they would use it in this way. I still think the preference is for the MVC so I think the FB only A-Sun partnership with MVC Olympic sports for the Racers is the most likely outcome (at least I hope so)
Is Murray nice in wintertime?
It rarely snows, so when it does there is panic in the streets amd the stores are out of bread. When it does snow it's usually about 6" or less but you wouldn't know it from the panic. Most times the temperatures are in the 40s. Sometimes we get ice storms.
But the food is good, most people are nice, and if you slide off the road there is bound to be someone with either a tractor or a 4x4 who will pull you out.
In all honesty, the only time to avoid Murray is in the Summer (even then it's pretty, just hot). The rest of the year is pretty spectacular. If you're the outdoorsy type, look into Land Between The Lakes. This time of year is my favorite though. The tobacco barns are smoking, there is a chill in the air, the leaves are falling, and there is basketball. Doesn't get any better.
McNeese State and the University of the Incarnate Word are headed to the WAC to replace New Mexico State and Sam Houston State. Some speculation that the WAC could be losing more members. The Southland could be in real trouble unless they have a good number of D2 callups lined up. Like I have said if football is the holdup for Murray State to the MVC we should have a resolution soon because there will be spots opening up. I can't understand what other holdup there could be beyond petty BS that shouldn't be part of the decisionmaking process so I'm assuming it is indeed football related until I hear concrete proof otherwise.
RacerJoeD - Thanks for the briefing. I think that you might be undervaluing the niceness of the people in Murray. I had some dealings with the university a few years back and found people to be very friendly and welcoming.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on November 02, 2021, 01:40:03 PM
Like I have said if football is the holdup for Murray State to the MVC we should have a resolution soon because there will be spots opening up. I can't understand what other holdup there could be beyond petty BS that shouldn't be part of the decisionmaking process so I'm assuming it is indeed football related until I hear concrete proof otherwise.
Some bright university presidents have this under control and will do what's in the best interest of the Missouri Valley Conference.
Trust the plan.
I know it's just more grist for the rumor mill but.... This could be what's holding everything up. Murray State and the MVC could very well be ready to announce their partnership but the OVC might (somewhat understandably given their current state) be being petty about the Racers' teams vis a vis autobid qualifications in sports. I don't understand why conferences do this. All it does is delay the announcement it doesn't make them reconsider and just creates ill will and hurt feelings while accomplishing nothing.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-934351.html
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on November 04, 2021, 12:55:44 PM
I know it's just more grist for the rumor mill but.... This could be what's holding everything up. Murray State and the MVC could very well be ready to announce their partnership but the OVC might (somewhat understandably given their current state) be being petty about the Racers' teams vis a vis autobid qualifications in sports. I don't understand why conferences do this. All it does is delay the announcement it doesn't make them reconsider and just creates ill will and hurt feelings while accomplishing nothing.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-934351.html
Two related thoughts:
• In general, conferences have increased their penalties substantially for member schools that don't give proper notice before moving to another conference (several million dollars in many cases). Maybe the OVC is playing hardball on the amount? Maybe the MVC won't help Murray State pay the penalty? Who knows?
• Or, how about this? Commissioner Jackson made a point of saying the MVC is a bb conference. Period. Maybe he doesn't want to add a school with football program baggage. It's football (and not even big time football) that is causing all of this silly game of conference hopping. With Murray State they have to find a place for their FB program to reside. Maybe there's a risk that they might want to move to a FB conference in the future, something that never came into play with Loyola, Valpo, or Belmont. Maybe there's people on the selection committee who don't want to risk becoming part of the next football cluster? Who knows?
Quote from: wh on November 04, 2021, 03:26:30 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on November 04, 2021, 12:55:44 PMI know it's just more grist for the rumor mill but.... This could be what's holding everything up. Murray State and the MVC could very well be ready to announce their partnership but the OVC might (somewhat understandably given their current state) be being petty about the Racers' teams vis a vis autobid qualifications in sports. I don't understand why conferences do this. All it does is delay the announcement it doesn't make them reconsider and just creates ill will and hurt feelings while accomplishing nothing. https://csnbbs.com/thread-934351.html
Two related thoughts: • In general, conferences have increased their penalties substantially for member schools that don't give proper notice before moving to another conference (several million dollars in many cases). Maybe the OVC is playing hardball on the amount? Maybe the MVC won't help Murray State pay the penalty? Who knows? • Or, how about this? Commissioner Jackson made a point of saying the MVC is a bb conference. Period. Maybe he doesn't want to add a school with football program baggage. It's football (and not even big time football) that is causing all of this silly game of conference hopping. With Murray State they have to find a place for their FB program to reside. Maybe their's a risk that they might want to move to a FB conference in the future, something that never came into play with Loyola, Valpo, or Belmont. Maybe there's people on the selection committee who don't want to risk becoming part of the next football cluster? Who knows?
Trust me when I say that Murray State football isn't going to be taking the Racers anywhere. This is a basketball school through and through.
Weird and interesting to hear this. Even those closer to the situation have no idea what's going on. I really hope they get announced soon to take the attention off of our struggles. If we're not going to or for whatever reason can't pull our weight in this conference then the conference would be well suited to find programs that can. Murray State is as good a bet as any program out there to be one of those programs that can.
https://twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1456434728018620421?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1456434728018620421%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
Loyola to the A-10 next year. My guess is that is the reason the Murray addition was held up. Belmont would keep us at 10, Murray would put us at an odd 11. Either stay with just Belmont or find another team to bring in with Murray to bring us to 12.
Ouch.
Matt Norlander of CBS Sports reports MVC pursing UT Arlington , Murray State and ..........UMKC.
I mean this always made sense for Loyola once their commitment and performance were obvious. I'm not surprised or really upset (they're doing what's best for their program) I just really don't like that we couldn't bring Belmont and Murray State into a league where there were no defections so that the maximum benefit of their additions could be realized. I am fully on board with Murray State as a subsequent addition (assuming they're still interested) but Good God I can't believe we're about to add Arlington and UMKC. Nothing against those institutions. They are fine academic adds but they bring NOTHING athletically and make the conference much worse (Not that we have been much help since we joined either so I guess we shouldn't complain). That said if we were going to go for market based additions I really wish we had added Milwaukee Wright State NKU Oakland schools that might actually be able to contribute on the hardwood. Or if we were going after the Summit League why not the Dakotas St Thomas or Oral Roberts? With Arlington and UMKC we are taking bad schools (athletically) far away. I wish we were keeping our footprint tighter.
UIC before any of those schools.....
I don't see the rush to add another unless someone else is leaving. Belmont is a fantastic addition. 10 is a good balance
Quote from: oklahomamick on November 16, 2021, 06:17:36 PMUIC before any of those schools.....
UIC before most of the HL teams I mentioned? Why?
Quote from: Chairback on November 16, 2021, 06:31:23 PMI don't see the rush to add another unless someone else is leaving. Belmont is a fantastic addition. 10 is a good balance
I disagree. Murray State is absolutely needed now. NKU would be very good as well to get to 12. If we countered the loss of Loyola with Murray State and NKU we might be able to come out of this just as strong as we were before. If not at least not significantly weaker.
UIC because it's Chicago, academics and has one of the better baseball facilities. I think with the right coach and maybe some increase in spending they could really put something together. Plus we can't beat them the last 2 years.....
UIC has a higher ceiling than any of the other HL schools.
UIC....
Quote from: oklahomamick on November 17, 2021, 11:56:52 AM
UIC because it's Chicago, academics and has one of the better baseball facilities. I think with the right coach and maybe some increase in spending they could really put something together. Plus we can't beat them the last 2 years.....
UIC has a higher ceiling than any of the other HL schools.
UIC light years before UMKC. It is a joke that anyone is seriously considering UMKC. Summit to WAC back to Summit and then somehow springboard into MVC?(https://media4.giphy.com/media/23BST5FQOc8k8/giphy.gif)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have heard that UMKC is a very poor academic institution with poor facilities Sorry but I cannot rate the source. Let's relax with 10 in the Valley.
Kansas City is actually a good academic school. A lot of post graduate programs. It's next to the Plaza in KC. Great area to shop and dine. But they don't get my vote.....
Don't forget UIC was strongly considered years ago when the MVC came to Loyola and Valpo's campus.
If UIC would come to the MVC, we would absolutely kick their butts.
Quote from: Just Sayin on November 17, 2021, 01:12:55 PMIf UIC would come to the MVC, we would absolutely kick their butts.
Once we have a different better coach maybe.
Quote from: oklahomamick on November 17, 2021, 11:56:52 AMUIC because it's Chicago, academics and has one of the better baseball facilities. I think with the right coach and maybe some increase in spending they could really put something together. Plus we can't beat them the last 2 years..... UIC has a higher ceiling than any of the other HL schools.
Chicago has such a crowded sports\CBB scene. Loyola's ascension makes it difficult for me to believe we would see lightning strike twice there but I suppose it's possible. I'd much rather roll the dice on them than Arlington or KC. They are closer and we would reliably pull students out of that market as opposed to praying we can convince a bunch of Texas kids to come here. It's just not realistic. I feel the same way about Milwaukee. They'd be a coach and some commitment away and unlike UIC they've actually shown that before. If we're making not so good basketball decisions can we at least have them be close to the footprint so that we have a good shot at recruiting students and have drivable interesting games for the fans? No one's coming out to see Arlington but they will for Milwaukee because of that history and our former shared history.
Ideally we do the following:
Murray State NKU and UIC right now (since I think Missouri State is gone. It's one thing to stay and remain loyal to the MVC with Loyola still in it It's quite another to see them leave hear the likes of Arlington and KC being bandied about and look at a CUSA that held on to WKU and MTSU and also has good basketball programs like Liberty and New Mexico State in it. I could see them leaving which is why I advocate adding three right now.
Tell Milwaukee they're absolutely on deck if they turn things around. Same message to Wright State if they can get their house in order.
Tell St Thomas and Bellarmine that we are monitoring them and if they continue to progress they will receive much consideration later especially if a vacancy (Illinois State and\or UNI to FBS?) should occur. If Milwaukee can turn things around, and\or Wright State gets it together financially going as high as 14 would be palatable. if not I would be pretty content with UIC NKU and Murray State being added (assuming Missouri State is gone) and rolling with that 12 team lineup. If Missouri State stays then UIC gets waitlisted. NKU is just the better add athletically and with the loss of Loyola we're going to need some punch in that department. I believe that boosting the academic profile of the conference is far easier than boosting the athletic profile. There are fewer additions that move the needle athletically than there are that do so academically. We can always add a school with a good academic reputation struggling athletically but only if our league continues to remain solid athletically. With Loyola gone especially we need to be prioritizing athletic prowess with any additions we make.
Unless of course being a multibid conference in multiple sports just isn't something we're very interested in anymore. In which case I am very sad and disappointed. And with names like Arlington and KC being among the top mentioned it sure does sound that way. The one saving grace is that Norlander mentioned that this was all before Loyola decided to leave. Hopefully that will cause the MVC presidents to recalibrate their thinking in a more athletically centered direction and help the league weather this storm. There's a chance we can emerge from this no worse for wear but we need to do it right. Adding KC and Arlington is doing it wrong. Reshuffle the board and put NKU and UIC at the top alongside Murray State. I'm willing to roll the dice on a big market school that hasn't shown much recently but let's make that school be in Chicago or Milwaukee rather than all the way in Texas especially with Missouri State being a massive flight risk.
SFA
And noooo to Arlington. Todd Golden nails it here. If we want to get into new markets there are far better choices than the ones rumored. Also Murray State is a must for the on court value they bring.
https://www.tribstar.com/sports/todd-aaron-golden-mvc-needs-to-hit-sweet-spot-between-markets-and-good-basketball-fit/article_90adeba4-82af-509f-8768-22e6d6ff3454.html
The most optimistic thing I can post about Valpo right now is this: The last time we were in a multibid conference that lost its signature member to the A-10 we stepped up and became the flagship member of that conference (even though it lost multibid status). Maybe that can repeat itself but we need to wake up and commit to the program ASAP if we want to make that happen. And we might have to go in a new direction as far as coaching goes. Sorry but I think it's pretty much time at this point. Lottich is going to have to turn it around really quick to change my mind there.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on November 19, 2021, 01:46:43 AM
And noooo to Arlington. Todd Golden nails it here. If we want to get into new markets there are far better choices than the ones rumored. Also Murray State is a must for the on court value they bring.
https://www.tribstar.com/sports/todd-aaron-golden-mvc-needs-to-hit-sweet-spot-between-markets-and-good-basketball-fit/article_90adeba4-82af-509f-8768-22e6d6ff3454.html
Good read. It makes sense to have the MVC concentrate it's expansion search within the Midwest. UIC, Milwaukee, NKU, (maybe). Kansas City doesn't stand out for me either but location wise it works. Does the MVC poach any other OVC schools SIUe, EIU, any of the remaining Tennessee schools or would Kansas City be a better fit for the Valley? All just seem a bit blah.
On a side note the digs keep coming towards Valpo's facilities.
"...no one wants a repeat of Valparaiso, which hasn't made any significant investment in its facilities since its gained MVC entry." Keep plugging the holes in this sinking ARC.
Quote from: VALPO LI on November 19, 2021, 11:41:04 AMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on November 19, 2021, 01:46:43 AMAnd noooo to Arlington. Todd Golden nails it here. If we want to get into new markets there are far better choices than the ones rumored. Also Murray State is a must for the on court value they bring. https://www.tribstar.com/sports/todd-aaron-golden-mvc-needs-to-hit-sweet-spot-between-markets-and-good-basketball-fit/article_90adeba4-82af-509f-8768-22e6d6ff3454.html
Good read. It makes sense to have the MVC concentrate it's expansion search within the Midwest. UIC, Milwaukee, NKU, (maybe). Kansas City doesn't stand out for me either but location wise it works. Does the MVC poach any other OVC schools SIUe, EIU, any of the remaining Tennessee schools or would Kansas City be a better fit for the Valley? All just seem a bit blah. On a side note the digs keep coming towards Valpo's facilities. "...no one wants a repeat of Valparaiso, which hasn't made any significant investment in its facilities since its gained MVC entry." Keep plugging the holes in this sinking ARC.
I don't even fight the digs anymore. They're completely justified. We've done nothing to earn a reprieve from them so it's fine by me if they refuse to let up. Heck no to any OVC school outside of Murray State. They would all be worse adds than Kansas City and that's saying something. I don't know why NKU is your maybe on that list. NKU is the best add of them all outside of Murray State. And how well does Kansas City work if and when Missouri State finally decides to go FBS. Abandon that strategy with the quickness. Without Missouri State (unless Kansas City is added which is just gross to think about) Arlington who MIGHT be somewhat compelling if they show real commitment to athletics becomes even more geographically isolated (Yes I know air travel is a thing but still.) I get the importance of enrollment but we're kidding ourselves if we think adding KC and Arlington is going to fix our problems and I hate that this issue which won't even be solved by tanking the conference like this is taking precedence in realignment for the MVC. This was supposed to be a basketball first league and that's why I was so excited to join. Now it just wants to be a souped up version of the HL which is not exciting even if it is still a win for us to be here instead of the real HL.
At the end, Valpo needs big cash donors for better facilities, which unfortunately are non existent.
I agree it is time to do something with the ARC. But as far as dollars expended goes since we joined the MVC, don't forget the baseball field and football field investments, along with the television studio upgrade. I believe the TV investment alone was over half-million dollars. Unfortunately the amount of money needed for those projects was a drop in the bucket for the amount needed to do something with the ARC.
Quote from: valpo64 on November 20, 2021, 07:36:15 AM
I agree it is time to do something with the ARC. But as far as dollars expended goes since we joined the MVC, don't forget the baseball field and football field investments, along with the television studio upgrade. I believe the TV investment alone was over half-million dollars. Unfortunately the amount of money needed for those projects was a drop in the bucket for the amount needed to do something with the ARC.
That was just for the basketball TV. We are required to add video broadcasts from softball and baseball also and that might be another million.
Quote from: valpotx on November 18, 2021, 11:57:35 PMnoooooooooo to UMKC
I know it doesn't change people's perspective a whole lot but UMKC knocked off Missouri, yes, the SEC Missouri in Columbia, Missouri, 80-66 this past Monday.
https://www.columbiamissourian.com/sports/mizzou_mens_basketball/mu-was-dominated-on-both-ends-of-court-in-ugly-loss-to-kansas-city/article_2209e99c-4674-11ec-bfd9-93b1834dd6d2.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WavgyiUCGVo
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on November 19, 2021, 01:31:02 PM
Quote from: VALPO LI on November 19, 2021, 11:41:04 AMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on November 19, 2021, 01:46:43 AMAnd noooo to Arlington. Todd Golden nails it here. If we want to get into new markets there are far better choices than the ones rumored. Also Murray State is a must for the on court value they bring. https://www.tribstar.com/sports/todd-aaron-golden-mvc-needs-to-hit-sweet-spot-between-markets-and-good-basketball-fit/article_90adeba4-82af-509f-8768-22e6d6ff3454.html
Good read. It makes sense to have the MVC concentrate it's expansion search within the Midwest. UIC, Milwaukee, NKU, (maybe). Kansas City doesn't stand out for me either but location wise it works. Does the MVC poach any other OVC schools SIUe, EIU, any of the remaining Tennessee schools or would Kansas City be a better fit for the Valley? All just seem a bit blah. On a side note the digs keep coming towards Valpo's facilities. "...no one wants a repeat of Valparaiso, which hasn't made any significant investment in its facilities since its gained MVC entry." Keep plugging the holes in this sinking ARC.
I don't even fight the digs anymore. They're completely justified. We've done nothing to earn a reprieve from them so it's fine by me if they refuse to let up. Heck no to any OVC school outside of Murray State. They would all be worse adds than Kansas City and that's saying something. I don't know why NKU is your maybe on that list. NKU is the best add of them all outside of Murray State. And how well does Kansas City work if and when Missouri State finally decides to go FBS. Abandon that strategy with the quickness. Without Missouri State (unless Kansas City is added which is just gross to think about) Arlington who MIGHT be somewhat compelling if they show real commitment to athletics becomes even more geographically isolated (Yes I know air travel is a thing but still.) I get the importance of enrollment but we're kidding ourselves if we think adding KC and Arlington is going to fix our problems and I hate that this issue which won't even be solved by tanking the conference like this is taking precedence in realignment for the MVC. This was supposed to be a basketball first league and that's why I was so excited to join. Now it just wants to be a souped up version of the HL which is not exciting even if it is still a win for us to be here instead of the real HL.
Who are these people criticizing the ARC? What schools are they from? Are they taxpayer-funded? What is their purpose? Are they embarrassed, like snotty neighbors who bought their oversized fancy house with family money? Or, maybe they're concerned that our recruiting is suffering due to our inferior facilities? Do any of these criticisms come from INSU, ILSU, SIU, or Eville, all of which have beautiful facilities and terrible bb programs? Help me understand...
Just watched this video. It's the best piece I have seen on MVC expansion. MVC part starts 4-5 minutes in. Data-driven, unbiased, focuses on things that matter (see the alumni distribution maps). Worth the 20 minutes, IMO.
Two things can be true:
1. The conference knew the situation with our facilities and we were still voted in. These continued attacks are misguided and offer no context to our situation.
2. Our gym sucks.
Let's go Murray State and UIC. I agree with the top 2. UTA is not going to drive what the MVC thinks it will. It is a heavy commuter school, and no one cares about Mavericks sports in DFW, not even most UTA alumni (my wife).
Quote from: usc4valpo on November 20, 2021, 08:30:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WavgyiUCGVo
I never get tired of watching that. An amazing moment.
I would still like the MVC to keep an even number of public and private schools though. Murray State, UIC, Milwaukee, N. Kentucky or Wright State would be fine. But i would like an additional Private University also. Choices there are somewhat slim though. Oral Roberts, St. Thomas (MN), Detroit, Lipscomb and even Denver would be about the only choices in the midwest.
Quote from: RS on December 09, 2021, 11:13:55 AM
I would still like the MVC to keep an even number of public and private schools though. Murray State, UIC, Milwaukee, N. Kentucky or Wright State would be fine. But i would like an additional Private University also. Choices there are somewhat slim though. Oral Roberts, St. Thomas (MN), Detroit, Lipscomb and even Denver would be about the only choices in the midwest.
I do too but the options are few and far between.
-Oral Roberts University would probably be the only possible fit.
-Detroit does not offer much.
-Lipscomb is in Nashville and I can't see Belmont wanting to share that market with an other MVC team.
-St. Thomas and Bellarmine are very green to D1.
-Denver to me is very far, over 1,000 miles away! (NYC is 750 miles from Valpo)
please don't say oru
ORU = Prigs
Quote from: VALPO LI on December 09, 2021, 02:16:07 PMLipscomb is in Nashville and I can't see Belmont wanting to share that market with an other MVC team.
Belmont and Lipscomb have one of the greatest rival traditions in college basketball called the battle of the boulevard going back over 60 years ago when they were NAIA . The schools are actually on the same street about three miles apart. They still play twice a year even though their in different conferences.
[tweet]1468989996765900803[/tweet]
UMKC would be a terrible addition. Always been at the bottom of Div. 1 Sagarin ratings. If NW Misssouri St went DI, they would be a better choice than UMKC.
SFA would be a better candidate than any of those on the list, and may be influenced to leave the wacky WAC.
Quote from: valpopal on December 10, 2021, 09:14:05 AM
[tweet]1468989996765900803[/tweet]
UMKC would be an awful choice. Program has never had success in college basketball. Commuter school with no real campus identity. Any number of choices would be better.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 10, 2021, 09:37:11 AM
UMKC would be a terrible addition. Always been at the bottom of Div. 1 Sagarin ratings. If NW Misssouri St went DI, they would be a better choice than UMKC.
SFA would be a better candidate than any of those on the list, and may be influenced to leave the wacky WAC.
I don't think the MVC will be as patient as they claim to be if they select UMKC.
boneheaded choice
https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_college_sports/isu_sports/todd-aaron-golden-mvc-needs-to-get-back-and-have-a-reality-check/article_7a0c9741-2508-5b02-8c11-157ebae91ea4.html
Quote from: RS on December 09, 2021, 11:13:55 AM
I would still like the MVC to keep an even number of public and private schools though. Murray State, UIC, Milwaukee, N. Kentucky or Wright State would be fine. But i would like an additional Private University also. Choices there are somewhat slim though. Oral Roberts, St. Thomas (MN), Detroit, Lipscomb and even Denver would be about the only choices in the midwest.
I not only agree, the private school presidents should demand it. If maintaining a presence in the Chicago is that critical (and it may be), then add UIC and Murray State is out. If the most important consideration is basketball prowess, then add Murray State and UIC is out. Public/private balance trumps all other priorities.
The Valley is going bananas :dance: and not in a good way lol. The Valley is at 10 if you add Murray St. or UIC who is the next private in? Head east to Buffalo and pick up a private school there? I hear NYC is a big market why not pick up Wagner and make my dreams of a Lutheran cup challenge come to fruition.
In all seriousness I get the appeal of where UMKC is located but the program is just not Valley worthy. I see Murray St. adding value to the league and UIC's location brings the Valley back to Chicago but if you are looking at keeping the private and public schools even stay at 10 and call it a day. The Valley lost a good program in Loyola but let's not forget who is replacing them.
Belmont!!!!
Quote from: VALPO LI on December 10, 2021, 01:54:00 PM
The Valley is going bananas :dance: and not in a good way lol. The Valley is at 10 if you add Murray St. or UIC who is the next private in? Head east to Buffalo and pick up a private school there? I hear NYC is a big market why not pick up Wagner and make my dreams of a Lutheran cup challenge come to fruition.
In all seriousness I get the appeal of where UMKC is located but the program is just not Valley worthy. I see Murray St. adding value to the league and UIC's location brings the Valley back to Chicago but if you are looking at keeping the private and public schools even stay at 10 and call it a day. The Valley lost a good program in Loyola but let's not forget who is replacing them.
Belmont!!!!
To your point, time will show that Belmont will make a much bigger contribution to the MVC than Loyola will to the A-10. Belmont has sustained success over time, with different coaches, different players, and different playing styles. Peering through Loyola's window of success I see 1 former coach and 1 former player arm in arm.
I just noticed there are 39 pages on this forum devoted to the topic of "Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion."
I am a snob but I prefer the 50/50 private v. public school mix that the MVC currently has and would vote to stay at 10 teams. It may be that Murray State and most of the other usual public school suspects have fine programs and very good academic profiles, but I'm against adding any of them since by doing so we take one step closer to becoming another version of the old Horizon League.
This expansion/shuffling of conferences has gotten completely out of hand and is now being done without any regard to traditional rivalries (or the lack of same), travel costs, fan interest - or even time zones. I would imagine very few Big 10 fans are interested in the outcome of Purdue v. Rutgers. Same with Big 12 fans wondering if Kansas State can beat West Virginia. In the meantime, traditional rivalries that mean something (i.e., Oklahoma v. Nebraska) go by the wayside.
If we did anything, I'd vote for adding St. Thomas. Private school, very good academics, and expand the MVC footprint a bit further into the Minneapolis region.
Paul
It would be moronic to add UMKC. I would take IUPUI and IPFW over UMKC, and that is saying something, as those schools are not MVC caliber, either. What has UMKC done in any sport, except produce Michael Watson?
TX that's hilarious about Watson. It was exactly what I was and have been thinking during this whole UMKC talk. He was good but that's really all they have to lean on. He could score and was fun to watch.
Hilarious
The fact the 5 schools presenting on 12/19 are Murray St, UIC, UTA, UMKC, & UNO shows the private schools themselves have given up on balance post-Loyola due to a lack of what they consider viable private candidates. For all intents and purposes, a non-FB public fills a private slot in their eyes because the priorities are aligned (i.e. no scholarship football draining resources).
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is out as they are headed to the Ohio Valley Conference.
https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/138254/ua-little-rock-with-eye-on-athletics-revenue-changing
More speculation about UMKC sticking point being lack of willingness to upgrade facilities. :-X We should hear more next week after the MVC meetings:
[tweet]1470198712928542723[/tweet]
The most surprising thing about MVC expansion is how quiet VUGrad1314 has been. This time period with the school presenting this weekend is XMas for him, yet he hasn't been seen or heard from in weeks.
Because this list of candidates outside of Murray State is nothing short of several lumps of coal and is really making me question my level of investment in MVC hoops. If the conference doesn't care about being a multibid league and fighting as hard as they can against the P5 establishment why should I? There's so many more important things that I can focus my life's time and energy on and I intend to do so. Why Northern Kentucky and South Dakota State aren't at least getting the chance to pitch the MVC while these awful programs outside of Murray State are is beyond me and the more disheartening by far than Loyola's departure.
Quote from: 78crusader on December 10, 2021, 03:50:37 PMI just noticed there are 39 pages on this forum devoted to the topic of "Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion." I am a snob but I prefer the 50/50 private v. public school mix that the MVC currently has and would vote to stay at 10 teams. It may be that Murray State and most of the other usual public school suspects have fine programs and very good academic profiles, but I'm against adding any of them since by doing so we take one step closer to becoming another version of the old Horizon League. This expansion/shuffling of conferences has gotten completely out of hand and is now being done without any regard to traditional rivalries (or the lack of same), travel costs, fan interest - or even time zones. I would imagine very few Big 10 fans are interested in the outcome of Purdue v. Rutgers. Same with Big 12 fans wondering if Kansas State can beat West Virginia. In the meantime, traditional rivalries that mean something (i.e., Oklahoma v. Nebraska) go by the wayside. If we did anything, I'd vote for adding St. Thomas. Private school, very good academics, and expand the MVC footprint a bit further into the Minneapolis region. Paul
Adding Murray State is not the path to becoming the Horizon League Adding awful programs with no fan support like the rest of this list however is. But we might get like five extra freshman a year in exchange for the conference's future viability as a multibid league so there's that... As for St Thomas they are a very intriguing candidate for a host of reasons but I need to see them perform at the D1 level first If they can do that I would put them at or near the top of post Murray State expansion candidates. As it stands I vote for Murray only or at most one speculative add based on potential. Any more than that and I think I'm out because this conference will have become nothing more than a bloated one bid league and that is just not very exciting at all to me. I'll still follow and support Valpo athletics but my time as a fan of the MVC as a whole may be done because it is clear from this list that the conference's interests and my interests may no longer align.
In the long run, St. Thomas would be an excellent addition. Of course, the St. Thomas doesn't yet have a record of success in D-1, yet I have no doubt they will attain reasonable success over the next decade.
They are a very good academic school, and have an endowment of $500M plus. They have a strong tradition in athletics success (albeit at the D-3 level). In addition, they are the just the second D-1 basketball program in Minnesota, already a source for top hoops talent, and so will get quite a bit of attention. Some of the other candidates may be in larger metro areas, yet the alternatives are far less popular in their home markets.
Finally, the geographic footprint of the MVC is a very good fit: Some of the other programs that have been mentioned would require airplane flights for most of the conference. If the MVC is looking ahead, they will recognize these factors - they can get in early rather than be late.
Quote from: valpo95 on December 13, 2021, 02:18:51 PMIn the long run, St. Thomas would be an excellent addition. Of course, the St. Thomas doesn't yet have a record of success in D-1, yet I have no doubt they will attain reasonable success over the next decade. They are a very good academic school, and have an endowment of $500M plus. They have a strong tradition in athletics success (albeit at the D-3 level). In addition, they are the just the second D-1 basketball program in Minnesota, already a source for top hoops talent, and so will get quite a bit of attention. Some of the other candidates may be in larger metro areas, yet the alternatives are far less popular in their home markets. Finally, the geographic footprint of the MVC is a very good fit: Some of the other programs that have been mentioned would require airplane flights for most of the conference. If the MVC is looking ahead, they will recognize these factors - they can get in early rather than be late.
The MVC would and should be and shall always remain a destination conference for schools like St Thomas. The conference can and should be able to get St Thomas at any time. They are far more appealing than UNO and UMKC for sure. If UIC and UTA are being considered St Thomas should be as well but really it's Murray State or nothing for me here. But there's no need to rush on St Thomas the MVC has time to evaluate them. Even if St Thomas eventually left the Summit League for the Horizon League they would still probably jump at an MVC invite even with a bunch of crappy adds unless the non Murray State adds are as awful as advertised and don't improve.
SFA would be the best addition. Look at the school and the thier success. Better than Murray St or UMKC or SD St. They fit the perfect MVC mold.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 13, 2021, 03:40:51 PMSFA would be the best addition. Look at the school and the thier success. Better than Murray St or UMKC or SD St. They fit the perfect MVC mold.
Better than South Dakota State? Maybe but I'm not fulky convinced especially when we consider the entirety of the athletic departments Better than Murray State? No Better than any other semi realistic choice outside of those two? Probably though a few have arguments
It would help if people put in 5 minutes of research before suggesting schools like NW Missouri St or Stephen F Austin. Both are non-starters if you're paying even the slightest bit of attention to realignment (location, demographics, NWMO's budget, SFA wanting to be with TX FB schools, etc). The whole point to TX expansion is being in DFW, not 15 hours away in the boondocks.
If 4 schools, I like UIC, Murray State, Denver, and ORU. You keep the private/public balance, and though Denver has sucked over the last few seasons, they have a large endowment and intermittent success in crappier conferences. I hate ORU, but they would be a good travel partner for Denver, and do invest in sports.
Quote from: VALPO LI on December 13, 2021, 08:30:17 AM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is out as they are headed to the Ohio Valley Conference.
https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/138254/ua-little-rock-with-eye-on-athletics-revenue-changing
Hahahaha, very cute of them to list this statement in the article. UALR 'chose' the OVC over the MVC? I call BS.
"UA Little Rock will be the ninth member of the Ohio Valley. The Trojans chose the conference over the Summit League and Missouri Valley, Ohio Valley and Southland conferences."
Quote from: valpotx on December 13, 2021, 08:10:08 PM
Quote from: VALPO LI on December 13, 2021, 08:30:17 AM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is out as they are headed to the Ohio Valley Conference.
https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/138254/ua-little-rock-with-eye-on-athletics-revenue-changing
Hahahaha, very cute of them to list this statement in the article. UALR 'chose' the OVC over the MVC? I call BS.
"UA Little Rock will be the ninth member of the Ohio Valley. The Trojans chose the conference over the Summit League and Missouri Valley, Ohio Valley and Southland conferences."
That was a good one....here's a better one. Has the Horizon League invited Murray St. yet? No one's mentioned it...what if.....
:crazy:
https://horizoneroundtable.com/2021/09/24/conference-realignment-has-the-horizon-league-invited-murray-state-yet/
Quote from: VALPO LI on December 13, 2021, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: valpotx on December 13, 2021, 08:10:08 PM
Quote from: VALPO LI on December 13, 2021, 08:30:17 AM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is out as they are headed to the Ohio Valley Conference.
https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/138254/ua-little-rock-with-eye-on-athletics-revenue-changing
Hahahaha, very cute of them to list this statement in the article. UALR 'chose' the OVC over the MVC? I call BS.
"UA Little Rock will be the ninth member of the Ohio Valley. The Trojans chose the conference over the Summit League and Missouri Valley, Ohio Valley and Southland conferences."
That was a good one....here's a better one. Has the Horizon League invited Murray St. yet? No one's mentioned it...what if.....
:crazy:
https://horizoneroundtable.com/2021/09/24/conference-realignment-has-the-horizon-league-invited-murray-state-yet/
UALR could say they chose the OVC over the SEC. The Horizon league could offer an invite to Michigan State.
May know - SFA is 2 to 3 hours from Dallas and Houston, thus a strategic location to huge metro areas. The school is beautiful, growing in a growing state, and has has more sports success than those listed. I agree NW Mo St. is a stretch but their Hoops team right now would be in the middle of the MVC.
Speaking of boondocks, let's talk SD State...next we will be talking about wood chippers in Fargo...
SFA is 10-0 thus far. They are too good for the MVC.
Like we were too good for the MVC while we were in the Horizon or Summit? :)
You missed the sarcasm.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 14, 2021, 05:39:23 AMMay know - SFA is 2 to 3 hours from Dallas and Houston, thus a strategic location to huge metro areas. The school is beautiful, growing in a growing state, and has has more sports success than those listed. I agree NW Mo St. is a stretch but their Hoops team right now would be in the middle of the MVC. Speaking of boondocks, let's talk SD State...next we will be talking about wood chippers in Fargo...
2-3 hours??? That's like saying Davenport Iowa is a strategic location because its 3 hours from Chicago.
Quote from: vuny98 on December 14, 2021, 04:14:22 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 14, 2021, 05:39:23 AMMay know - SFA is 2 to 3 hours from Dallas and Houston, thus a strategic location to huge metro areas. The school is beautiful, growing in a growing state, and has has more sports success than those listed. I agree NW Mo St. is a stretch but their Hoops team right now would be in the middle of the MVC. Speaking of boondocks, let's talk SD State...next we will be talking about wood chippers in Fargo...
2-3 hours??? That's like saying Davenport Iowa is a strategic location because its 3 hours from Chicago.
Technically, usc is correct on this one. When you consider that it is around 18 hours across the state, anything that is 2-3 hours away and still within TX, is 'in the area' lol
I know a lot of people in Davenport that say they live in the Chicagoland area.
I just checked MapQuest and from DFW Airport it's 194 miles. There isn't much "2-3" in 194miles. It's "3+hours". I've driven it.
you can make it in 2.5 hours. you can drive your car on Texas highways as if it were the Batmobile. The issue only is how much time you spend at Buc-ees.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 14, 2021, 08:05:06 PMI know a lot of people in Davenport that say they live in the Chicagoland area.
You know a lot of liars, haha
We can drive our car like a Batmobile in TX and drive 194 miles in 2.5 hours.
Busses carrying the players and staff can't. That's 3+ hours for them.
And the entire objective of TX expansion for university presidents is to be *IN* DFW. A school 194 miles away doesn't achieve that purpose. That's like an east coast conference adding a hypothetical DI school in the Quad Cities to drive enrollment from Chicago.
SFA is a non-starter and not a realistic candidate.
Ok, so keep the conference as is. UMKC detriments, although road trips would be great since the BBQ is outstanding.
but never ever underestimate the power of Buc-ees.
I read somewhere that MVC teams are building their schedules with the understanding that there will be 20 conference games. That gives me hope that sanity has prevailed in this expansion process and we will be going to 11 with only Murray State and playing a 20 game double round robin. That is by far and away the best path forward. If we expand it should only be for solid basketball adds and nothing else. Their market is and should be irrelevant but if a worthy school also happens to be in a big market then that is even better (like Belmont). We cannot go around adding schools with potential and hoping we hit it big like we did with Loyola. What Loyola did is the exception not the rule. I am certain of that. I think it was legendary coach John Thompson who said "Potential will get you fired if you're a coach" so it is as well with conference realignment. Making decisions based on potential will tank your metrics and be a detriment to your conference far more often than it is a blessing. Look at CUSA. They bet big on potential and it almost destroyed the conference. Now the AAC is making the same mistake and I expect similar results. We as a basketball conference that thrives on our teams' ability to punch above their weight class need to only consider adding teams that can fit that profile regardless of where they are located. Markets will do nothing for the MVC unless those teams win and only if those teams win.
Why Murray state
What have they done? I don't get it. Small media area where KFC is king.
So you think SFA?
More than Murray's St., just compare. Not to mention SFA is in a growing state.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 24, 2021, 09:39:43 PM
More than Murray's St., just compare. Not to mention SFA is in a growing state.
Louisiana, right? Natchitoches? ;)
I mean they're a great program but do we really want a school in our conference founded by a professional wrestler?
Quoteusc4valpo: What have they [Murray State] done? I don't get it. Small media area where KFC is king.
I like SFA more than Murray's St., just compare.
Kenpom Program Rankings from 1997-2021 SeasonsOverall Rating of all teams: (Range +49.72 through -24.00
SFA +4.49
Murray St. +5.79
Valpo +5.67
Best/Worst RatingSFA 61/254
Murray St. 35/218
Valpo 42/226
A Top 50 Ranking (Number of times)SFA 0
Murray St. 1
Valpo 2
Made Round 1 of NCAA Tourney (Number of times) SFA 1
Murray St. 10
Valpo 8
Made Sweet 16 (Number of times)SFA 0
Murray St. 0
Valpo 1
Okay, this might be a totally off the wall bonkers unrealistic theory but hear me out: Maybe the reason why we haven't heard anything yet is because Murray State is the one (and only) choice for the league AND the MVC is holding that twelfth spot open for an unexpected (and welcome) surprise: the return of Wichita State sometime between now and 2025. If you think about it all the dominos that we know of right now seem to be pointing this way:
1. The MVC is going to a 20 game conference schedule suggesting perhaps that only one team is going to be added right now (though of course that isn't a guarantee since many leagues with 12+ teams have already taken this step.
2. Murray State has football. If they were just going to add UIC UTA or UMKC (or just two of the three) they could and would have done so already. Murray State's football issues being unresolved has to be what's holding up any expansion moves.
3. The lack of talk from Murray State sources about different conferences or even negotiations with different conferences
4. The lack of smoke from any beat writers recently (outside of one tweet from UMKC that seems to have really jumped the gun because it doesn't mesh well with the other rumor of them starting hockey which might soon become a Summit League sport with so many teams (North Dakota Omaha Denver and St Thomas off the top of my head) already playing it.
5. The seeming loosening of Murray State's market size as a detriment to its candidacy after Loyola's departure
6. The growing likelihood that the AAC is going to suffer more defections of prominent members sometime in the next few years when the Big XII potentially expands again (Memphis? SMU? South Florida?)
7. The lesser media contract the AAC (understandably agreed to post 2025 that will see reductions in payouts for any program left making AAC less palatable especially for a partial member like Wichita State.
8. The lessening likelihood that Wichita State (who will probably look to leave the AAC especially if one or more of Memphis SMU and possibly Temple (who could choose A10 membership and Football Independence over remaining in a depleted AAC and traveling to Texas several times a year) will have other options. I doubt the A10 will take them on institutional and (especially) geographic and academic grounds and the Mountain West who is reluctant to add non-football members beyond Gonzaga would only have space to accommodate them if Gonzaga declines OR Gonzaga accepts and Hawaii rejoins as a full member (unlikely but possible) OR if Gonzaga accepts AND the Mountain West is willing to (or Gonzaga insists on) bringing St Mary's along with them (unlikely). At this point Wichita State would be faced with three options:
1. Stay in an AAC without Cincinnati Houston UCF and possibly one or more of Memphis SMU Temple or South Florida or
2. Join another league that would almost assuredly be worse than the MVC especially if the MVC also adds Murray State or
3. Go back to the MVC
Sure there's more money involved with option 1 but that will be eaten up in travel most likely especially if most of the eastern schools stay and they complained about seeding before playing an MVC slate. How are they going to feel when they're playing the likes of Rice UTSA and Florida Atlantic? They'd have almost no choice but to accept option 3 as much as they wouldn't want to do it.
The best thing the MVC can do right now is finalize the Murray State addition and wait. It could potentially pay off very big in the near future. The Current MVC minus Loyola but Plus Belmont Murray State and Wichita State would have no problem being a 2-3 bid conference annually and will provide quality games from top to bottom for all institutions. I hope it happens.
Bunch of BS Just Sayin. Kenpom is Midwest biased and hates the conference of champions. SFA has been in the tourney 5 times, and has won 2 games and almost beat ND to get in the sweet 16.
Regarding Valpo, we need to quit bringing up 1998. We are sounding like Bear fans reminiscing 1985! SFA right now is a better program than Valpo.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 30, 2021, 04:13:42 PM
Bunch of BS Just Sayin. Kenpom is Midwest biased and hates the conference of champions. SFA has been in the tourney 5 times, and has won 2 games and almost beat ND to get in the sweet 16.
Regarding Valpo, we need to quit bringing up 1998. We are sounding like Bear fans reminiscing 1985! SFA right now is a better program than Valpo.
You have just confirmed that you are divorced from reality. KenPom reports facts. You just don't like facts that disagree with your ill-informed, everything-USC-rose-colored opinion.
Like Fox News and their Stepford anchorwomen?
What rationale proves that a KenPom ranking is factual? Note that conference of champions teams were under seeded for the tournament and outperformed overranked Big 10 teams which surely had higher PomPom rankings. 3 conference of champion teams were in the elite 8, and who knows if it could have been four since USC faced Oregon in the Sweet 16, which was a conspiracy by the NCAA and clowns like Gary Barto.
It
Ratings of team's strength on sites like KenPom, collegebasketballreference.com, etc. are constructs. They are estimates of how good a team is based on the author's algorithm. The people who write these algorithms are certainly very skilled at statistical modeling, but the limitation is the same as any type of similar measure. Constructs are not facts.
Using a different site's construct measuring performance (collegebasketballreference.com) over the last 20 years (in which 0 is the average of all D1 teams)
SFA: Average team strength: -0.555 Best: 9.23 (2015-2016); Worst: -10.99 (2018-2019)
Valpo: Average team strength: 1.376 Best: 10.71 (2015-2016); Worst: -4.43 (2008-2009)
It is safe to say that, using this measure of performance, the data shows that there is no statistical difference between SFA and Valpo - but that is probably because only 20 years were used.
By the way, this site has the Pac-12 rated as the second best conference this season (so far). They were also second last year with two teams in the Top 10.
Since the Valpo board is Big10 biased, it is imperative that the Pac12 gets represented properly. USC defeated MVC powerhouse Drake decisively and no one gave Troy credit for their win. The PAC 12 has significantly more NCs than any other conference and overwhelmingly leads in Olympic success. No Kenpom ranking will ever show that.
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 30, 2021, 08:25:27 PM
Ratings of team's strength on sites like KenPom, collegebasketballreference.com, etc. are constructs. They are estimates of how good a team is based on the author's algorithm. The people who write these algorithms are certainly very skilled at statistical modeling, but the limitation is the same as any type of similar measure. Constructs are not facts.
Using a different site's construct measuring performance (collegebasketballreference.com) over the last 20 years (in which 0 is the average of all D1 teams)
SFA: Average team strength: -0.555 Best: 9.23 (2015-2016); Worst: -10.99 (2018-2019)
Valpo: Average team strength: 1.376 Best: 10.71 (2015-2016); Worst: -4.43 (2008-2009)
It is safe to say that, using this measure of performance, the data shows that there is no statistical difference between SFA and Valpo - but that is probably because only 20 years were used.
By the way, this site has the Pac-12 rated as the second best conference this season (so far). They were also second last year with two teams in the Top 10.
Kenpom uses the data from box scores as the primary aspect of rating teams. Those are facts about what happened on the court. He only estimates items which are not shown in the box scores such as possessions. (See this estimate below in bold in Pomeroy's explanation of the stats)
Pomeroy writes:
QuoteOffensive/Defensive Efficiency – This is the number of points scored or allowed per 100 possessions. There are only about 70 possessions for each team in the average college basketball game, so these numbers are higher that the points-per-game statistics you see used by the media.
Like tempo, I average each team's efficency by game. The other way to do this would be to take a team's total points on the season and divide it by total possesions. But this gives some games more weight than others depending on the number of possessions in a particular contest.
The raw numbers are computed from the data contained in a box score
His rankings page ranks both offensive and defensive efficiency. The final rank (
AdjEM = Adjusted Efficiency Margin) is Offensive Efficiency minus Defensive Efficiency for every team. AdjEM "represents the number of points the team would be expected to outscore the average D-I team over 100 possessions." He does use algorithims and incorporates some of Dean Oliver's work on the four factors. But those are based on what happens in the box scores. He provides many actual stats from every game for each team and incorpates that into his rankings. He doesn't explain how he incorporates these stats into his rankings, it's proprietary, but here Ken explains some of the other stats he utilizes:
QuoteStats Explained
Ken Pomeroy | 08.01.05
Let's start with the most basic stats to measure the ability of a team's offense and defense.
Offensive efficiency
Points scored per 100 offensive possessions.
Defensive efficiency
Points allowed per 100 defensive possessions.
In order to compute efficiency, we need to know how to compute possessions.
Possessions
We can estimate possessions very well from box score stats by using this formula.
FGA-OR+TO+0.475xFTA
For each team, possessions are counted for the team and their opponents, and then averaged.
Efficiency gives us broad view of how well the offense or defense functions, but we can break efficiency into what Dean Oliver dubbed the Four Factors. Shooting, rebounding, turnovers, and free throws provide the basic components of efficiency.
Effective field goal percentage (eFG%)
(FGM + 0.5*3PM) / FGA
Shooting is measured by effective field goal percentage, which differs from conventional field goal percentage by taking into account the extra value of a made 3-pointer.
Offensive rebounding percentage
OR / (OR + DR)
Defensive rebounding percentage can also be computed, using defensive rebounds in the numerator.
Turnover percentage
TO / Possessions
Free throw rate
This can either be FTM/FGA or FTA/FGA. Typically, for team offense FTM/FGA is used, while on defense FTA/FGA is used. This is FTA/FGA for both offense and defense.
There are other team stats that are less important than the Four Factors, with the common approach of converting the standard per-game stats to per-opportunity.
Assist Rate
A / FGM
Block Rate
Blocked shots / Opp. 2PA
Steal Rate
Steals / Defensive possessions
All of the above stats can apply to individuals in some form, also. There are two other stats that are applied to individuals that aren't applied to teams. These stats were developed by Dean Oliver, and the formulas are far too complicated to list here. His book, Basketball on Paper, is worth buying if you are interested in how the calculations are performed.
Offensive Rating
This is the personal version of team offensive efficiency.
Usage (% of possessions used)
This describes a player's role in the offense, by explaining how many of his team's possessions a player is personally responsible for ending while he is on the floor.
A simpler version of personal efficiency is this one
True shooting percentage (TS%)
Points scored / ( 2* (FGA + 0.475*FTA)
Pomeroy is a very smart and knowledgable statistician. And what I like best is the effort he puts into making the rankings predictive. He wrote:
QuoteSo I've dusted off that algorithm, spent some time tuning the various parameters, and applied it to the efficiency model to improve the predictive power of adjusted offense and adjusted defense
KenPom provides the probability of winning for each game played every day. He's good. He's not perfect -no one is- but he's very good. My hobby is using the plethora of stats from his site and using multiple regression analysis, I come up with several models to test and compare them to his predictions. I pick the best models, time allowing and use them in March Madness competitions to see how they fare against milliions of others who do the same. The ESPN Tourney Challenge is the best one in my view. You can use several models and you can join other Valpo fans for a separate reporting of just Valpo fans. I encourage people to join that one come Big Dance Time and to use your moniker that you use on this forum.
I think we both agree that KenPom is very detailed and that Pomeroy does a great job continuously working to refine his model. But since he uses facts to make predictions or suggest overall performance differences between teams, he is creating constructs (which, by definition, are not facts or 'the truth').
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 30, 2021, 09:16:01 PM
Since the Valpo board is Big10 biased, it is imperative that the Pac12 gets represented properly. USC defeated MVC powerhouse Drake decisively and no one gave Troy credit for their win. The PAC 12 has significantly more NCs than any other conference and overwhelmingly leads in Olympic success. No Kenpom ranking will ever show that.
I cannot speak for others, but my biases are teams in the Big 12, Big East and MVC - because those are the teams that I see the most.
Just having some fun here, but all models are wrong, but some are useful
I think the MVC was absolutely going in a markets-based direction at one point in this process and that point was prior to Loyola's departure to the A-10. Back when they were operating under the assumption that Loyola was sticking around with Belmont also in tow I think the MVC felt pretty good about its overall basketball strength and did not feel it necessary to make the basketball first play with Murray State. They probably felt like they could bet on a UTA or a UMKC and still be okay because of the quality the league had at the top. Jackson's comments about their being no set number for the MVC gave some hope that Murray State would also be involved and that would only make the market plays even more palatable because it would have meant even more quality at the top but of course it is no guarantee that Murray State would be invited in this scenario given the reported hesitancy on the part of the presidents for whatever reason.
However, with Loyola's departure, the calculus changed fundamentally. The MVC has realized that without Loyola they are largely banking on what they hope Belmont can bring to the league which is a less safer bet than having Loyola's already established power alongside as we wait for Belmont to reach its potential. Now they feel like they have to go in a basketball centric direction in order for the league to stay in the position it currently enjoys. I don't think those rumors that the presidents were less hesitant on Murray State after Loyola's departure was announced were an accident. I think Murray State is definitely in now and it's possible they will be the only add to create a 20 game schedule as has been rumored. I think we're just waiting on an announcement with football for Murray State which will hopefully come shortly. Markets become less important when the success and viability of your league hangs in the balance and I think Loyola leaving definitely shifted the priorities likely in our (the fans') favor.
Once the MVC establishes a new power base with hopefully Belmont Murray State and potentially others working out as planned then the league can go ahead and worry about adding markets to attract students and potentially grow the media deal by putting the product in front of more eyeballs. But right now we need to secure the league's future in the post-Loyola world and I think the presidents understand this. I would like to see the league if it is intent on expanding beyond 11 continue this trend by adding South Dakota State to add yet another consistent top 100 program that would also add elite women's basketball (like Belmont does) to the league. That would be a killer 12 team league that would be good TV for regional sports networks and would be a draw if we were to add a couple teams in big markets to get on more regional sports networks though of course with the potential success of those 12 teams that wouldn't even be necessary. Our product would speak for itself and we would get many more games on TV just because of who we already have.
St. Thomas is a nice fit long-term. But no brand recognition yet. Minnesota is home to 1,000,000 Lutherans as well as 10,000 lakes.
They also make sense with easy airport and branch off to Northern Iowa, which is about a 3-iron from Minnesota.
Tap in to the Texas market and get 2 teams - UTA, SFA or Incarnate Word (San Antonio is a great city!). Make the I35 and I45 traffic even worse! As Bill Walton would agree, avoid adding more truck stop schools like Murray State and the Dakotas as we need some culture and beauty!
When you previously mentioned SFA I thought you were talking about San Francisco. The comparison I did was San Francisco. Now I see in this post you were always referring to Stephen F. Austin. :banghead:
My bad.
While not trying to get political or scientific, I'm curious about population moves in the next 10 years with global warming/drought/etc. South Dakota, Idaho, West Virginia, Oregon, and Vermont were 5 of 10 states with the highest increases of incoming residents from a report I saw online today (but it was a subscriber exclusive). Basing decisions off market sizes seems a little shortsighted and easy way out, but again who knows what the NCAA looks like 5 years from now. Whether they like it or not, MVC is known as a basketball league. Get the best basketball brand you can regardless of market or league balance or whatever.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 04, 2022, 12:05:43 PMTap in to the Texas market and get 2 teams - UTA, SFA or Incarnate Word (San Antonio is a great city!). Make the I35 and I45 traffic even worse! As Bill Walton would agree, avoid adding more truck stop schools like Murray State and the Dakotas as we need some culture and beauty!
We need basketball schools first and foremost right now regardless of location. Belmont is a good start in this phase of expansion but as of right now they are a maybe as far as the MVC is concerned. It's easy to take gambles when you have an established bellwether at the top of the conference like we had in Wichita State and subsequently Loyola but without that in place we need schools that can step in and give this conference the depth it needs to survive as a multibid league. SFA could but I just don't see them moving again right now and really only Murray State and South Dakota State fit this definition as schools we could potentially get right now. This is who we should be targeting.
Pick schools with excellent basketball programs as the main criteria. Might just prevent some of the better teams in the MVC from jumping to a better conference. Don't settle for mediocrity just so you can be in a huge market area. That makes no sense. Build a stronger conference by adding stronger teams with a history of winning.
If you build it, they will come.
San Antonio is a beautiful city and Incarnate Word is growing fast. SFA is growing in the Piney Woods. We should tap into Texas non truck stop schools. Also Texas has gas stops like Buc-ees, a Mecca of true joy, which is not in the truck stop mentally that Bill Walton wants humanity to avoid.
I have no idea which suggestion is more absurd - NW Missouri St or Incarnate Word. Ironically, both were made by the same poster.
Here's something that's decidedly not absurd!
https://twitter.com/liamniemeyer/status/1478849373358505988?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1478849373358505988%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=&fbclid=IwAR0qr1kU7HKHlrWzoGVc0ZmQD9MhBVMaXz8RCkqNnMLw8G63F8s8VjuQiRo
Yeah baby!
I think this is for an MVC invite. If they weren't coming we would have heard way more about UIC and UTA and it probably would have already been done. Or we would have heard some rumor and scuttlebutt that Murray State was either staying or looking to go in a different direction with possible alternatives being thrown out. The fact that none of this has happened and neither party has said anything points to a long overdue union finally being consummated between Murray State and the MVC. As a poster on MVCFans pointed out the fact that this board of regents meeting takes place after the presidents meeting is very encouraging. I'm going to wait until we have official confirmation before I celebrate but I am very optimistic and happy about these developments! I just hope they're the only one out of this list and we either play with 11 for awhile or look for other strong programs like SDSU as I mentioned before. If we're looking for a twelfth that's the way to go and our target should be Summit League schools first and foremost.
NW Mo St won D2 last year, and believe me they had a better team than Valpo last year. D1 teams are avoiding them.
I just dont get the love for Bill Murray St.
CBS Sports is reporting this, as of five minutes ago, Murray State to the MVC is a done deal...to be reported officially on Friday.
Quote from: cornonthe on January 05, 2022, 05:46:39 PM
CBS Sports is reporting this, as of five minutes ago, Murray State to the MVC is a done deal...to be reported officially on Friday.
Yep, it's not a head fake: Murray State is in!
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 05, 2022, 05:10:13 PMNW Mo St won D2 last year, and believe me they had a better team than Valpo last year. D1 teams are avoiding them. I just dont get the love for Bill Murray St.
Not that it matters since they're (finally) in but here's why we're excited. Murray State since 2010:
3 Tournament wins
2 NBA lottery picks
2 All Americans
2 Top 25 rankings
NIT Quarterfinal
CIT Champions
Need I say more? What school that the MVC could realistically add regardless of how great the food or gas stations or markets are can match that resume?
Well, the time has finally come for MURRAY State and Valpo to be conference mates, and I have to say I'm extremely excited. I look forward to seeing you all when it comes time for a trip south. As always, if you have questions about Murray, our team, or anything, I'm here to help.
Here is to a multibid MVC!!
CIT champions? You actually list that?
In reality, Murray St. is a good addition, but let's chill and have some fun. Sports is the toy department of life.
The MVC needs to add some scenery and not over populate with truck stop schools.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 06, 2022, 06:29:24 AM
CIT champions? You actually list that?
In reality, Murray St. is a good addition, but let's chill and have some fun. Sports is the toy department of life.
The MVC needs to add some scenery and not over populate with truck stop schools.
Murray State is not a truck stop school...there are no interstates within 40 miles of Murray. And with the Land between the Lakes, it adds far more scenery than any place in Texas.
As I have said in other posts, Murray, KY seems to have a lot of really nice people - at least that was my impression from doing some work-related stuff there in 2015. It is much more remote than any other MVC program - fly to Paducah and drive 45 minutes or fly to Nashville and drive two hours. Two hour drive from Carbondale. For the size of Murray, KY, they have a large (8600 seat) and pretty modern stadium and they have filled it. Of course, it was mostly funded by the state. Beyond the list above, four players from Murray teams in the last eight years have played in the NBA.
Overall, despite being remote (and that will be an issue for MVC teams in other sports) this is a very good add for the MVC.
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 06, 2022, 08:53:04 AMfly to Paducah and drive 45 minutes
Or fly to Chicago and drive an hour and a half to Valpo! Let's face it, a 45 minute drive is really nothing unusual.
Quote from: vu72 on January 06, 2022, 09:51:01 AMQuote from: vu84v2 on January 06, 2022, 08:53:04 AMfly to Paducah and drive 45 minutes
Or fly to Chicago and drive an hour and a half to Valpo! Let's face it, a 45 minute drive is really nothing unusual.
Exactly. Who are we to be complaining about Murray State's shortcomings as a program like location market size etc. when their overall resume dwarfs ours by a good margin and we have done nothing of note in five years in the MVC outside of volleyball and women's soccer which have had solid results? We need to remember that we are a lot like them and need to remember where we came from and how the rest of the MVC reacted pretty negatively to our being added as well. It remains to be seen if Murray State can keep it going and become a credit to the Valley but I believe in them at least as much as I believed Valpo would at the time we were added. I hope they do a better job than we have with the opportunity.
According to Matt Brown UTA cheaped out on the entrance fee to the MVC. We don't need programs like that in our league regardless of how great the market or gas station food is. Good luck in the WAC.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-935663-page-22.html
Quote from: vu72 on January 06, 2022, 09:51:01 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 06, 2022, 08:53:04 AMfly to Paducah and drive 45 minutes
Or fly to Chicago and drive an hour and a half to Valpo! Let's face it, a 45 minute drive is really nothing unusual.
Teams will probably fly from their regional airport into Murray-Calloway County Airport. A 6,200 ft asphalt runway just about 4 miles from Campus.
1314 - a trip to Buc-ees will be a relief after a bad Valpo loss. it is a happier place than Disney World!!
https://www.producebluebook.com/2020/12/08/see-buc-ees-the-worlds-largest-convenience-store/
hopefully Murray St. has a good place to stop after a Valpo loss...
Quite impressive. And I thought Family Express was impressive back in 1997 when they had plants in their restrooms. Convenience stores until then had meant slurpees, tobacco, and air fresheners. Everything is bigger in Texas!!
insane kolaches, jerky, pecans, potato chips, breakfast brisket tacos, beaver nuggets, t-shirts, brisket sandwiches, and much much more!!! Better than the Iowa I80 Truck stop off mile 284 sponsored by UNI.
United has flights nonstop from O'Hare to Paducah
Or you can hop your private plane and land in Murray.
It's only a six hour drive.
Not too bad for the 44th best program in college basketball.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/the-greatest-college-basketball-programs-ever-ranking-the-top-teams-of-all-time-nos-50-26/
Quote from: RacerJoeD on January 06, 2022, 06:33:44 PMUnited has flights nonstop from O'Hare to Paducah Or you can hop your private plane and land in Murray. It's only a six hour drive. Not too bad for the 44th best program in college basketball. https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/the-greatest-college-basketball-programs-ever-ranking-the-top-teams-of-all-time-nos-50-26/
Joe, Do you think Murray State's stars are going to stick around next year to experience MVC basketball and make the team's transfer to their new league smoother or do they have other ambitions that will take precedence? I hope they stick around because with Loyola heading out we really need Murray State and Belmont to hit the ground running if we want to stay viable as a multibid conference.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 06, 2022, 01:59:17 PM
insane kolaches, jerky, pecans, potato chips, breakfast brisket tacos, beaver nuggets, t-shirts, brisket sandwiches, and much much more!!! Better than the Iowa I80 Truck stop off mile 284 sponsored by UNI.
What's a beaver nugget? Are you being naughty?
Brisket tacos\brisket sandwiches do sound pretty good I have to say. But that is ot enough to get a program into a conference I'm afraid. Maybe I'll have to make a stop if I'm ever in Texas though.
What's more important - Valpo being successful or the MVC getting multiple bids?
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 06, 2022, 08:07:17 PMWhat's more important - Valpo being successful or the MVC getting multiple bids?
They're both critically important. Don't forget that the MVC's success IS Valpo's success because tournament appearances and wins by MVC teams means money for VU. Lots of money. Tens of thousands of extra dollars per year per win. If we can't get the bids ourselves we should strive to have a league that can get as many teams in the tournament and therefore hopefully win as many games in the tournament as possible to generate the most money for member institutions. That's why I want as many strong programs in the MVC as possible. It's all about seeding and wins and therefore money that Valpo very desperately needs.
Valpo would no doubt have been more successful as an individual program had they stayed in the Horizon League but as part of a one and done league where they would struggle to get higher than a 13 seed the financial troubles we are facing would be even worse than they are now without the massive injections of cash Loyola and Drake's success have brought us. Ideally we would rise to a situation where we could have both and Valpo takes command of a multibid MVC but since that seems wholly impossible right now we should be very happy that the MVC has brought in the schools they have brought in so far.
I continue to hold out hope that we will one day see an era where Valpo dominates the MVC or at least is consistently competitive but I just don't see it until certain changes are made.
Totally disagree. Your are nickel and dimming with the multi bid argument. We need to. At this in 7 figures, not 5. Percent
Totally disagree. Your are nickel and dimming with the multi bid argument. We need to look At this in 7 figures, not 5.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 06, 2022, 08:31:01 PMTotally disagree. Your are nickel and dimming with the multi bid argument. We need to. At this in 7 figures, not 5. Percent
What else can we do right now? Unless a big donor shows up out of nowhere to give us money for the upgrades we need it's not going to happen and it's not like we're going to get where we need to go on the court without a coaching change. The only thing we have as fans is to hope the conference stays strong and generates money for us this way. We're darn sure not going to be able to do it ourselves under Lottich. It sucks to face that reality but the facts don't lie. This program needs a change if it is to have any hope of succeeding in the future. I think that UNI game makes it abundantly clear at this point.
The MVC getting two bids increases Valpo's chance from 1/10 to 1/6. I'm not sure why that question is posed as an either/or, as if supporting the MVC getting more bids precludes supporting Valpo. In reality, the two go hand-in-hand -- we just have to get back to where we were to take advantage of something we previously did not have access to.
You have to wonder if
1. Valpo is not up to the challenge to compete in all facets in the MVC
2. If Valpo runs status quo and appears better, then the quality of the MVC had become diluted
Again Valpo basketball sucks right now and not meeting expectations. If the Valley gets multiple bids and additional cash, that cash will not be sufficient nor will enable Valpo not to continue a suck state.
Give Lottich some time. He just needs more time. Once he recruits his players we will start winning. He's using Bryce's players who are HL type of players.......
Murray State's board of regents has advanced the motion to join the MVC with enthusiastic support! It looks like it's done! Just waiting on football applying to the MVFC for 2023 but RacerJoeD says that's mostly a formality at this point! This is awesome! Terrific news for the MVC!
Exciting day! So glad to join the premier Midwest MM basketball conference.
Not sure our two all conference first team players stay, they both have pro all in their sights. That said I don't expect a major drop off, though maybe some growing pains early on. We have a pretty good recruiting class lined up and we are playing 10 deep so far this season so the talent level is there.
We have a top ten player in Missouri, a four star out of Memphis, Jaxson Edwards out of Cathedral in Indianapolis, and a three star center all committed.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on January 07, 2022, 10:51:24 AMExciting day! So glad to join the premier Midwest MM basketball conference. Not sure our two all conference first team players stay, they both have pro all in their sights. That said I don't expect a major drop off, though maybe some growing pains early on. We have a pretty good recruiting class lined up and we are playing 10 deep so far this season so the talent level is there. We have a top ten player in Missouri, a four star out of Memphis, Jaxson Edwards out of Cathedral in Indianapolis, and a three star center all committed.
This is all very very good. I'm very happy to read that! Sounds like Murray State will be just fine. I think growing pains are certainly to be expected both Loyola and Valpo have experienced them but I am confident that the Racers will compete from the jump. I reiterate: this is a great day!
I think growing going backwards pains are certainly to be expected both Loyola and of Valpo
I don't doubt that UTA didn't want to pay the fee. It is indicative of how that commuter campus views their sports, and how DFW views the UTA Mavericks. They are completely irrelevant, even to UTA alums, such as my wife.
Tx - excellent point on commuter schools. Same can be said with UIC, umkc, Omaha, etchings
Enrollment impact of Murray State moving to Missouri Valley Conference
Jan 7, 2022 Updated 9 hrs ago
91% of the Murray State student body is from the Missouri Valley Conference footprint.
https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/enrollment-impact-of-murray-state-moving-to-missouri-valley-conference/video_21441b28-7035-11ec-a3f8-7f56bc290ac6.html
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 08, 2022, 04:30:42 AMTx - excellent point on commuter schools. Same can be said with UIC, umkc, Omaha, etchings
I'm a little nervous about the potential UIC addition but they do have a very solid overall athletic department even if their men's basketball isn't great and their academic reputation is sterling plus they keep us in a very valuable market for MVC schools. There's a lot to like even if the men's basketball isn't up to snuff. With Belmont and Murray State on board maybe we can afford to take the plunge on a "market school" at this point even though I would prefer another solid basketball add like South Dakota State if it were possible.
Quote from: wh on January 08, 2022, 08:02:00 AMEnrollment impact of Murray State moving to Missouri Valley Conference Jan 7, 2022 Updated 9 hrs ago 91% of the Murray State student body is from the Missouri Valley Conference footprint. https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/enrollment-impact-of-murray-state-moving-to-missouri-valley-conference/video_21441b28-7035-11ec-a3f8-7f56bc290ac6.html
According to their board of regents at their meeting 80% of their alumni are in this footprint as well. They're such a perfect fit and I'm so glad they're finally here! We definitely need them with Loyola exiting.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 08, 2022, 02:01:13 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 08, 2022, 04:30:42 AMTx - excellent point on commuter schools. Same can be said with UIC, umkc, Omaha, etchings
I'm a little nervous about the potential UIC addition but they do have a very solid overall athletic department even if their men's basketball isn't great and their academic reputation is sterling plus they keep us in a very valuable market for MVC schools. There's a lot to like even if the men's basketball isn't up to snuff. With Belmont and Murray State on board maybe we can afford to take the plunge on a "market school" at this point even though I would prefer another solid basketball add like South Dakota State if it were possible.
Quote from: wh on January 08, 2022, 08:02:00 AMEnrollment impact of Murray State moving to Missouri Valley Conference Jan 7, 2022 Updated 9 hrs ago 91% of the Murray State student body is from the Missouri Valley Conference footprint. https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/enrollment-impact-of-murray-state-moving-to-missouri-valley-conference/video_21441b28-7035-11ec-a3f8-7f56bc290ac6.html
According to their board of regents at their meeting 80% of their alumni are in this footprint as well. They're such a perfect fit and I'm so glad they're finally here! We definitely need them with Loyola exiting.
The public school search is over. Murray State won. It's now 6-5 publics over privates. The next school this conference adds, whether it's next month or 5 years from now had darn well better be a private school. 7-5 is totally unacceptable. If there are no privates that fit the mold right now, leave it as is.
I really think the next add is going to be a public and it's going to be UIC I think there's a big difference between adding a football playing public vs a non football public Non football publics function a lot more like private schools anyway and I think the MVC places a high degree of importance on maintaining a presence in the Chicago market UIC is the best and really only way to do that with Loyola gone. Moreover UIC has an excellent academic reputation and a really solid athletic department outside of men's basketball. There's a lot to like there. I don't think the public private balance matters much to the presidents given that we were rumored to be going as high as 14 and every candidate except Belmont was a public. I think we've reached the phase where we are going to accept non football publics as pseudo privates of sorts and I don't see that as a bad thing. Even with an uneven split favoring the public's which has existed throughout much of the MVC's history the conference has thrived and it's members have enjoyed a mostly harmonious coexistence. I expect nothing less in the future regardless of the split between publics and privates. Let's not forget that even with an uneven split this is still by far the most institutionally friendly conference we have ever called home by far in addition to being by far and away the most competitive. I see no reason to be upset even if the conference adds a couple more public schools. As for private schools I really believe St Thomas is eventually coming down the line once they get their feet under them in D1. They have so much potential I have no doubt that the MVC has their eyes on them
What is sad to me is that if we had added Belmont and Murray 2 years ago, I don't think Loyola is going anywhere. The MVC is probably the top Mid-Major conference and also a perennial multi-bid conference.
Belmont and Murray St. are decent additions. My question is how important it is to have 12 members.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 09, 2022, 08:05:57 AMBelmont and Murray St. are decent additions.
Decent? Talk about hard to please! Who did you want? UCLA? :rotfl:
Quote from: FWalum on January 09, 2022, 07:42:05 AMWhat is sad to me is that if we had added Belmont and Murray 2 years ago, I don't think Loyola is going anywhere. The MVC is probably the top Mid-Major conference and also a perennial multi-bid conference.
We can thank the MVC presidents for not having Murray State sooner If they had been willing to go to 11 teams like they should have back in 2017 they would have gotten the Morant Racer teams And we can thank Rick Byrd and Belmont's now retired president who at the time when expansion was being discussed decided against moving. I'm just glad both of these mistakes have now been corrected. I don't think it cost us Loyola though. I think the A10 still has a higher average NET than the MVC even if we add Murray State and Belmont to it right now. Plus the obvious institutional fit of the A10 would be hard for the Ramblers to turn down. The slight bump up in quality of competition for them is just a bonus.
The only thing dragging the MVC down is Evansville and Valpo.
Decent - would like to see the Valley tap in on the Texas market for long term growth.
SD State would be a dumb addition. The ultimate truck stop.
Sounds like UIC is getting an invite too
UIC has been ranked on average in the mid-to-upper 280s for the past 5-10 years. Bad choice. Get winning teams not bottom feeders.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 08, 2022, 10:07:41 PM
I really think the next add is going to be a public and it's going to be UIC I think there's a big difference between adding a football playing public vs a non football public Non football publics function a lot more like private schools anyway and I think the MVC places a high degree of importance on maintaining a presence in the Chicago market UIC is the best and really only way to do that with Loyola gone. Moreover UIC has an excellent academic reputation and a really solid athletic department outside of men's basketball. There's a lot to like there. I don't think the public private balance matters much to the presidents given that we were rumored to be going as high as 14 and every candidate except Belmont was a public. I think we've reached the phase where we are going to accept non football publics as pseudo privates of sorts and I don't see that as a bad thing. Even with an uneven split favoring the public's which has existed throughout much of the MVC's history the conference has thrived and it's members have enjoyed a mostly harmonious coexistence. I expect nothing less in the future regardless of the split between publics and privates. Let's not forget that even with an uneven split this is still by far the most institutionally friendly conference we have ever called home by far in addition to being by far and away the most competitive. I see no reason to be upset even if the conference adds a couple more public schools. As for private schools I really believe St Thomas is eventually coming down the line once they get their feet under them in D1. They have so much potential I have no doubt that the MVC has their eyes on them
Unless you know something I don't, the only schools traced to official sources within the MVC were Murray State and Texas-Arlington. Everything else is pure speculation. Steven Austin or whatever it's called is a figment of USC's imagination. UMKC or whatever it's called now and UIC were also fan creations, albeit serious names that might or might not be on a short list. The same for the others. That's what happens when a topic takes on a life of its own.
https://twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1480325842647629828?s=20
https://twitter.com/WyattWheeler_NL/status/1480365654620479491?s=20
If added in 2017, the MVC would have had two more first round NBA draft picks, and the NBA rookie of the year to their credit.
That said, I would bet dollars to donuts that UIC is added very soon.
The private schools (at least from what I have heard) wanted a large metro from which to recruit students. Hence looking at Omaha, Kansas City, Arlington and UIC. They also kicked the tires on Norther Kentucky (Cincy metro) and Milwaukee. Adding Belmont brought a large metro and good athletics. Adding Murray just brought in good athletics. UIC is the compromise school added to help the private schools in their (I think misguided) attempt to stem enrollment losses.
Quote from: vuny98 on January 10, 2022, 01:52:24 PM
https://twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1480325842647629828?s=20
https://twitter.com/WyattWheeler_NL/status/1480365654620479491?s=20
These are not official sources. Even if true about UIC, can you imagine someone saying I heard the interview went bad. The bottom line is I don't want to believe it. UIC hasn't had a strong bb program in the past 15 years. They're a nobody in Chicago. They're just another mouth to feed and 1 more obstacle to contend with. They're not going to catch lightning in a bottle like Loyola did when Krutwig fell into their laps. Murray State and Belmont were strong adds. Stop adding programs until we prove we can be a consistent 2-bid league. Knowing when to stop and take a breath is as important as any other part of a growth strategy. There are stupid adds and buyer's remorse being experienced in several conferences already, including in P-5 conferences. Slow down!
Quote from: wh on January 10, 2022, 04:07:23 PMQuote from: vuny98 on January 10, 2022, 01:52:24 PM[tweet]1480325842647629828[/tweet]?s=20 [tweet]1480365654620479491[/tweet]?s=20
These are not official sources. Even if true about UIC, can you imagine someone saying I heard the interview went bad. The bottom line is I don't want to believe it. UIC hasn't had a strong bb program in the past 15 years. They're a nobody in Chicago. They're just another mouth to feed and 1 more obstacle to contend with. They're not going to catch lightning in a bottle like Loyola did when Krutwig fell into their laps. Murray State and Belmont were strong adds. Stop adding programs until we prove we can be a consistent 2-bid league. Knowing when to stop and take a breath is as important as any other part of a growth strategy. There are stupid adds and buyer's remorse being experienced in several conferences already, including in P-5 conferences. Slow down!
They aren't official sources but I'm pretty sure Wyatt Wheeler is or was a Missouri State beat writer and as we know Missouri State's president is the chair of the expansion committee so any news coming out of Springfield vis a vis MVC expansion has plenty of reason to be taken seriously. Secondly, Matt Brown has been totally on point RE: Conference realignment this year. As I recall he had Belmont coming before anyone else did. He broke the UTA rumors awhile ago and he has had information nobody else has had concerning other candidate schools (why UTA fell through why Milwaukee and NKU weren't heavily considered this time etc.) I would trust his reporting on this.
That said, your point about knowing when to slow down is well-taken. I was dead set against UIC for a long time for the same reasons you cite but after a discussion with a UIC fan on MVCFans that showed me that there may be more at play here than simply market and academic reputation which are both boxes UIC thoroughly checks I see a good bit to like even if their basketball program isn't good right now. It does seem to be showing some signs of getting better their athletics budget basketball budget and facilities will be mid pack or better in the MVC on Day One and their overall sport portfolio (which is something the MVC cares about too) is very strong. Men's soccer baseball volleyball and softball I believe are all very good consistently top 3 or better in the HL. Their men's soccer would probably be the best team in the MVC right now and their baseball RPI would have been 4th last year and I don't even think this was even close to their best team recently.
As an institution they are growing extremely well like Belmont (and UTA for that matter) so if that continues they should have more and more money to invest to get better and better.
I do worry about them being a branch campus which probably caps their ceiling as a program when it comes to seeing a Loyola-like resurgence but there's a lot to like here. As much as I detest market based adds (and this is predominantly a market based add) the Chicago market is an exception to that rule. It is incredibly important to almost every MVC institution so having a presence there matters more than having a presence anywhere else plus it probably helps us better keep NBC Sports Chicago as part of our media deal in addition to the growth we will see if we can come to a deal with Bally Sports Southeast thanks to the Belmont and Murray State additions. All of this could\should mean real dollars to all MVC institutions especially if Belmont and Murray State are as good as advertised. If UIC can come anywhere close to reaching their potential they can easily justify their inclusion in the league by becoming perhaps the best overall athletic department in the MVC. I don't like the idea of taking a risk on a school with potential as opposed to a proven track record but if we're going to roll the dice on someone we could do a lot worse than UIC and that is probably the one out of the list of adds (now that I have heard a bit more about the financial situations at NKU Milwaukee etc. Word is they could not afford to agree to what the MVC asked of them financially) that I would pick given the loss of Loyola.
Watch this video for more insight on the importance of the Chicago market to MVC institutions. It also explains why UTA was a candidate even though I disagreed with that especially after the rumor that they too were not up to the challenge financially came out.
If I had my pick I would be going for basketball based adds only but the MVC has shown time and time again a willingness to look beyond basketball. Whether or not that is wise remains to be seen. I've made no secret who my picks would be if I were in the commissioner's chair but clearly the MVC is trying to adopt a more holistic approach. Hopefully that works out for us.
The best news of this post however is the apparent willingness to expand past 12 for the right additions. I have to believe they are watching the likes of the Dakota schools Oral Roberts (if the presidents can stomach them which is no guarantee at all) possibly Bellarmine and St Thomas who I think could be a really good add one day. Or their waiting for something amazing that comes out of left field like a school drops down to FCS and needs a solid basketball home for their sports or a former member returns for some reason or something. It's just nice to see that they are still keeping their ears to the ground to take advantage of opportunities to make the league better.
Watch this video and get hyped! This video covers everything we already knew about why Murray State is such a good candidate for the MVC as well as a few things I didn't know before watching!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1cefsQ8ABE
I support UIC. Good overall athletics program, and keeps us with a Chicago travel partner. Won't be a Loyola, Belmont, or Murray State, but can get some wins (beat us twice in a row). I don't mind a 7/5 Public to Private split. If we go to 14 at any point, we would need to make that up.
Quote from: valpotx on January 11, 2022, 02:11:09 AMI support UIC. Good overall athletics program, and keeps us with a Chicago travel partner. Won't be a Loyola, Belmont, or Murray State, but can get some wins (beat us twice in a row). I don't mind a 7/5 Public to Private split. If we go to 14 at any point, we would need to make that up.
I would agree and I do believe that one of the future MVC additions (if not both potentially depending upon what happens when the expansion decisions are made whenever that is) will be a private. I really think St Thomas has a shot. Bellarmine possibly too one day. Maybe Oral Roberts but as I said there may be cultural\academic hurdles there.
I think it's important to have a game in Chicago every year and UIC is an academically prestigious, wealthy institution located near downtown. Easier to get to than Loyola for most people.
Also, I love the history capsule at the end of that video.
Quote from: valpotx on January 11, 2022, 02:11:09 AM
I support UIC. Good overall athletics program, and keeps us with a Chicago travel partner. Won't be a Loyola, Belmont, or Murray State, but can get some wins (beat us twice in a row). I don't mind a 7/5 Public to Private split. If we go to 14 at any point, we would need to make that up.
Something Valpo struggles with is a good rivalry! UIC could be that missing piece. Past history, close proximity to one another, Chicagoland bragging rights. I'm on board with adding the Flames.
My wife and I went to a couple of VU/UIC games in Chicago maybe 6-7 years ago.
I don't think their basketball facility is all that great. It is older and rather dingy IMO. People like to trash VU for having the worst gym in the league, but if UIC joins up I think they will take our place.
I'm done going into the city of Chicago. I don't feel safe there. The neighborhood surrounding UIC appears to be OK, and the games we went to were fine (they were all played in the afternoon). I would never go to a night game there. Come to think of it, I wouldn't go anywhere in Chicago at night.
Paul
Greatest Rivalry
Valpo vs Evansville
Valpo vs UIC
Can't wait.
It's a little off subject, but man is it good to talk to COLLEGE BASKETBALL FANS talking about the benefits of conference realignment. This Racer is damn proud to be in a conference with Valpo.
1314- I can't get too excited about UIC but I'm not opposed either. I'm just surprised that a UIC fan convinced you to take a holistic approach which included all sports since you usually only consider Men's Basketball for your conference additions. As far as UIC being the best potential Men's Soccer team in the MVC, I see them as possibly fourth best now. They were 9-8-2 this season, good enough for fourth place in the Horizon League. They are generally not the best team in Chicago (Loyola) and SIUE is a very solid program. That brings us to Missouri State who was 17-2 overall (most wins in the nation), 10-0 in the MVC, top 10 nationally ranked for much of the season, and a retiring head coach who had over 300 wins in a 30-year career leading the Bears. Some of the videos and news that you post, such as the D1 360 Candidate Comparison, are really interesting. RacerJoeD- welcome to Valpo and the MVC.
Quote from: valpo tundra on January 11, 2022, 03:06:20 PM1314- I can't get too excited about UIC but I'm not opposed either. I'm just surprised that a UIC fan convinced you to take a holistic approach which included all sports since you usually only consider Men's Basketball for your conference additions. As far as UIC being the best potential Men's Soccer team in the MVC, I see them as possibly fourth best now. They were 9-8-2 this season, good enough for fourth place in the Horizon League. They are generally not the best team in Chicago (Loyola) and SIUE is a very solid program. That brings us to Missouri State who was 17-2 overall (most wins in the nation), 10-0 in the MVC, top 10 nationally ranked for much of the season, and a retiring head coach who had over 300 wins in a 30-year career leading the Bears. Some of the videos and news that you post, such as the D1 360 Candidate Comparison, are really interesting. RacerJoeD- welcome to Valpo and the MVC.
I've chilled out a little following the Murray State news. I thought we were seriously going to pass on the biggest slam dunk add we could possibly have made to chase potential and markets and that made me very concerned and unhappy. Now that they're in and the future of the conference post-Loyola feels a bit more secure I'm a bit more receptive toward the notion of gambling on potential. I still want good basketball schools first and foremost and will continue to lobby for schools like South Dakota State as long as there is hope that expansion is possible because I think they help the league but given what we have and the importance of Chicago to the MVC as well as the solid overall nature of UIC athletics I don't see much of a problem with them being added. The biggest thing for me though is this: their endowment. It's Loyola sized. If the MVC comes in and puts the same list and level of demands on UIC that they put on Loyola when they joined and UIC delivers on those demands watch out because that would mean that they become a power. I'm not sure if we can expect Loyola level results there but the more I looked at UIC a bit deeper the more I think the potential isn't a pipe dream it's real. They clearly have the money as evidenced by the fact that they're planning to drop almost $5million on soccer as announced late last year. If they start throwing some of that considerable money around like Loyola did they could get very good very quickly assuming like many believe that Luke Yaklich is the right man for the job there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lac-CUjIprE&t=2s
This is their seventh straight year of record enrollment as well.
https://twitter.com/thisisUIC/status/1435635579497107781?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1435635579497107781%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fflamesmania.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F1105%2Frecord-setting-7th-year-enrollment%3Fpage%3D1
One thing I have learned as a sports fan over the years is that I have had to learn a lot by being wrong and having a lot of bad takes before I get to having better ones. It's happened a lot. This exercise in realignment and learning a bit more about realignment is part of that process. There is a lot to shy away from RE: Men's basketball (long performance drought bad attendance) and one institutional factor that isn't great (still a commuter campus but that is slowly changing) but there are a lot of fundamentals underpinning that that signal that they could be a strong buy for the MVC as strange as that sounds.
With some of these additions that have Men's Soccer and Men's Tennis, maybe we bring those solid programs back...
Quote from: valpotx on January 11, 2022, 04:28:38 PMWith some of these additions that have Men's Soccer and Men's Tennis, maybe we bring those solid programs back...
As long as adding those programs doesn't create further financial strain that exacerbates the issues facing the men's basketball program vis a vis competitiveness for us I'm all for it. It would be nice to win an MVC championship in something if at all possible.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on January 10, 2022, 03:38:07 PMIf added in 2017, the MVC would have had two more first round NBA draft picks, and the NBA rookie of the year to their credit. That said, I would bet dollars to donuts that UIC is added very soon. The private schools (at least from what I have heard) wanted a large metro from which to recruit students. Hence looking at Omaha, Kansas City, Arlington and UIC. They also kicked the tires on Norther Kentucky (Cincy metro) and Milwaukee. Adding Belmont brought a large metro and good athletics. Adding Murray just brought in good athletics. UIC is the compromise school added to help the private schools in their (I think misguided) attempt to stem enrollment losses.
While I consider not adding Murray State alongside Valpo to go to 11 in 2017 to be an MVC miss considering how badly Murray State wanted to be in the conference at the time Not adding Belmont wasn't. I firmly believe the MVC would have gone to 12 if Belmont's old president and Rick Byrd had been on board with it. Clearly Byrd who was going to retire soon didn't want to have to spend his last few years adjusting to a new more competitive conference and Belmont was clearly more focused at the time on building up other aspects of their university (which they seem to have done quite well). Belmont not coming back then is not on the MVC Murray not coming back then however wholly is on the MVC. Despite all the handwringing back then 11 would not have been an issue (or at least it should not have been).
Quote from: RacerJoeD on January 11, 2022, 02:30:09 PMIt's a little off subject, but man is it good to talk to COLLEGE BASKETBALL FANS talking about the benefits of conference realignment. This Racer is damn proud to be in a conference with Valpo.
This is exactly how I felt when Valpo first joined the MVC. Being in a conference that is in a position of strength in realignment who can make adds that enhance the conference feels good. The discussions I have had with folks from other fanbases on the MVC Board has been awesome too! And while I can't speak for anyone but myself this Valpo fan is damn proud to call Murray State a conference mate as well!
Now to the meat and potatoes point of my post: I posted this on the MVC Board a little earlier but I figured I'd do it here as well. The additions of Belmont and Murray State and the subsequent negotiations with Bally Sports South and Southeast have me wondering if maybe we're talking to the SOCON about a conference challenge. I know we all want the A10 or the MWC but those probably aren't very likely. With the diminished state of the AAC which might suffer even further defections over the years the SOCON stands as the best option for any sort of challenge agreement. They are 12th in the NET to the MVC's 11th and would add a lot of high interest content to the potential new area of our TV deal. I have to think that the thought has at least crossed the mind of Commissioner Jackson and I think it would be a good move for the MVC. Here are the NET comparisons for the two leagues (minus Loyola for the MVC but plus Belmont Murray State and UIC who is heavily rumored to be joining):
Belmont 28
Murray State 45
Missouri State 97
Drake 99
UNI 117
Bradley 130
SIU 144
ISUb 165
Valpo 198
ISUr 207
Evansville 285
UIC 298
SOCON
Chattanooga 29
Furman 105
Wofford 110
UNC-Greensoboro 154
Samford 157
East Tennessee State 170
VMI 175
Mercer 221
The Citadel 246
Western Carolina 280
Someone said that the A-10 would still be a higher ranked conference than the MVC, even if Loyola stayed put, and we added Belmont and Murray State. Wrong. Adding Belmont and Murray State as the 11th and 12th teams would improve our conference NET from 11th to 9th. The A-10 would drop from 9th to 10th. The WCC would drop from 10th to 11th.
This is not a promotion for Loyola to a higher ranked conference as the poster insisted. They may have a hundred other reasons why they think the A-10 is a better fit for them, but moving to a better conference is not one of them. Today, yes. Tomorrow, absolutely not.
Would anyone like to own that comment and defend it?
Quote from: wh on January 14, 2022, 02:19:38 PM
Someone said that the A-10 would still be a higher ranked conference than the MVC, even if Loyola stayed put, and we added Belmont and Murray State. Wrong. Adding Belmont and Murray State as the 11th and 12th teams would improve our conference NET from 11th to 9th. The A-10 would drop from 9th to 10th. The WCC would drop from 10th to 11th.
This is not a promotion for Loyola to a higher ranked conference as the poster insisted. They may have a hundred other reasons why they think the A-10 is a better fit for them, but moving to a better conference is not one of them. Today, yes. Tomorrow, absolutely not.
Would anyone like to own that comment and defend it?
I actually agree with your premise that moving from the MVC to the A10 is not a promotion for Loyola, especially given that Belmont and Murray State are replacing Loyola. However, you should note that in many seasons the A10 has gotten more NCAA births than the MVC. The A10 has had at least two bids in every season since 2005-2006, while the MVC averages about 1.5 bids per season over the same timespan. Beyond that, I looked at SRS (collegebasketballreference.com's measure of performance) and it does seem that the A10 is slightly better than the MVC. On that website, the two conferences are always ranked next to each other in each season. Other measures that could be considered are attendance and TV contracts, and I have no idea how those would turn out. Attendance is a weird measure since it depends on what you charge, quality of non-conference home opponents, and how you measure it for each game.
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 14, 2022, 03:09:25 PM
Quote from: wh on January 14, 2022, 02:19:38 PM
Someone said that the A-10 would still be a higher ranked conference than the MVC, even if Loyola stayed put, and we added Belmont and Murray State. Wrong. Adding Belmont and Murray State as the 11th and 12th teams would improve our conference NET from 11th to 9th. The A-10 would drop from 9th to 10th. The WCC would drop from 10th to 11th.
This is not a promotion for Loyola to a higher ranked conference as the poster insisted. They may have a hundred other reasons why they think the A-10 is a better fit for them, but moving to a better conference is not one of them. Today, yes. Tomorrow, absolutely not.
Would anyone like to own that comment and defend it?
I actually agree with your premise that moving from the MVC to the A10 is not a promotion for Loyola, especially given that Belmont and Murray State are replacing Loyola. However, you should note that in many seasons the A10 has gotten more NCAA births than the MVC. The A10 has had at least two bids in every season since 2005-2006, while the MVC averages about 1.5 bids per season over the same timespan. Beyond that, I looked at SRS (collegebasketballreference.com's measure of performance) and it does seem that the A10 is slightly better than the MVC. On that website, the two conferences are always ranked next to each other in each season. Other measures that could be considered are attendance and TV contracts, and I have no idea how those would turn out. Attendance is a weird measure since it depends on what you charge, quality of non-conference home opponents, and how you measure it for each game.
I don't think anyone would dispute that the A-10 has outranked/outperformed the MVC in past years. His point was that the MVC could add Murray State and Belmont right now and the A-10 would still be higher ranked. As I said, "Incorrect."
BTW, I'll make this claim right now. I am far more confident that Belmont and Murray State will continue to perform at a high level in the MVC than I am Loyola maintaining its current status in the A-10. Belmont and Murray State both have a record of high level achievement that spans many years, different coaches, and multiple cycles of complete roster changes. We all know what Loyola has - a 4 year track record of success under 1 former coach and 1 former freak of nature player. COVID saved them from what would have been a steep decline this year. Where they go after this is a crap shoot.
Quote from: wh on January 14, 2022, 04:37:04 PMWe all know what Loyola has - a 4 year track record of success under 1 former coach and 1 former freak of nature player. COVID saved them from what would have been a steep decline this year. Where they go after this is a crap shoot.
You may have overstated your point but your conclusion may well be accurate. When Butler left for the A-10 I was confident they could compete near the top of that group. Loyola???? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.
i agree, especially in regards to Murray State. They are much like Butler in that they seem to handle succession from successful coaches very well. Belmont has only had one transition, but obviously it has gone very well too.
Big game tomorrow:
SAT 4:00pm
Murray St. o149.5
Belmont -5.5
Quote from: justducky on January 14, 2022, 05:13:55 PM
Quote from: wh on January 14, 2022, 04:37:04 PMWe all know what Loyola has - a 4 year track record of success under 1 former coach and 1 former freak of nature player. COVID saved them from what would have been a steep decline this year. Where they go after this is a crap shoot.
You may have overstated your point but your conclusion may well be accurate. When Butler left for the A-10 I was confident they could compete near the top of that group. Loyola???? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.
If my conclusion turns out to be accurate, then I didn't overstate my point. ;)
UIC to MVC appears done. Matt Brown and Jon Rothstein confirm.
https://twitter.com/mattbrownep/status/1484908389020876801?s=21
https://collegehoopstoday.com/index.php/rothstein-files/missouri-valley-conference-expected-to-add-uic-announcement-could-come-as-early-this-week/
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1484908359958605832?cxt=HHwWkMC59aaSupspAAAA
Interesting High risk big gain choice. be aware they are stepchildren of DePaul and Loyola in a city apathetic toward college basketball.
Now the UIC Valpo rivalry renews.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 22, 2022, 11:17:13 AMInteresting High risk big gain choice. be aware they are stepchildren of DePaul and Loyola in a city apathetic toward college basketball. Now the UIC Valpo rivalry renews.
IF they invest and commit to athletics to the degree they appear to be capable of based on their endowment numbers and the fact that they just dumped $4.5million into soccer field renovations they could pay off handsomely for the league. I've come around completely on UIC and support their inclusion.
It's a risk, I like taking a risk unlike Valpo, I like the potential outcome, let's see what happens.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 22, 2022, 11:36:26 AMIt's a risk, I like taking a risk unlike Valpo, I like the potential outcome, let's see what happens.
As I said every add is a risk. After making two additions that feel safer than this one it feels like the league is in more of a position to take a risk like this. If it pays off the MVC will become a really strong league. I disagree with your point about Valpo though. Valpo absolutely did take a risk stepping up to the Valley. It hasn't paid off for them in competition yet but it certainly has financially with all the money the move has generated. Hopefully once we find either the right mix of players or the right leadership good things can start happening soon on the court. We're all very hungry to see that and we all know deep down that this program is capable of delivering on their promise one day. At least that's what I keep trying to tell myself. The UNI win has me feeling hopeful for the first time this season. Hopefully they won't let us all down in this game today.
UIC isn't being added because the MVC feels that they can become the next Creighton, Wichita State, or Loyola. It is just due to being in Chicago, and it makes sense for the league. We keep a Chicago travel partner, and they have good programs outside of Basketball, with some prior success many years ago. You make this addition to stay in Chicago, which is vital to most MVC school alumni, while it would not have been worthwhile to 'add' Kansas City with UMKC. Stay at 12, and though a little uneasy with the 7-5 public/private split, maybe we get to 14 in a few years with a school like Detroit, Denver, Bellarmine, Oral Roberts, St. Thomas, etc. There are only so many options in private schools around our footprint...
What are thoughts on scheduling with 12 teams? Round robin with a 22 game conference schedule? Two divisions with a round robin in the division and then play other teams once (i.e. 16 games)? Something more creative?
My guess is that, given the difficulty scheduling non-conference games, the best option is the 22 game conference schedule...with no non-D1 games (at least for Valpo).
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 22, 2022, 11:25:38 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 22, 2022, 11:17:13 AMInteresting High risk big gain choice. be aware they are stepchildren of DePaul and Loyola in a city apathetic toward college basketball. Now the UIC Valpo rivalry renews.
IF they invest and commit to athletics to the degree they appear to be capable of based on their endowment numbers and the fact that they just dumped $4.5million into soccer field renovations they could pay off handsomely for the league. I've come around completely on UIC and support their inclusion.
While I am fine with adding UIC, I readily admit my uneasiness in a state university putting $4.5M into renovating a soccer field when the state has massive budget issues. Less than 40 percent of Illinois' pension obligations are funded and, since all teachers have a larger state pension instead of social security, the obligations are astronomical.
1314 - disagree about Valpo taking risks. In general, they have been way too conservative and reactive in all areas of decision making. Regarding the jump to the MVC for all sports, their financial commitment for whatever reason is not on par. I think Valpo thought they could get away with a discount lunch.
Regarding UIC, it can be big reward but it is an uphill climb. Generally, Chicago and the UIC alums don't care about their athletics. I think the $4.5m soccer upgrade is impressive, but note that UIC has a diverse student body and it makes sense to have this investment. UIC D1 basketball has been around for 40 years and never caught on. I still like the risk.
The other issue that is risky is the current state of Chicago as they are in massive debt, becoming a third world city (many rich, many poor, no middle class), and an incompetent government requiring an enema.
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 23, 2022, 10:54:11 PM
What are thoughts on scheduling with 12 teams? Round robin with a 22 game conference schedule? Two divisions with a round robin in the division and then play other teams once (i.e. 16 games)? Something more creative?
My guess is that, given the difficulty scheduling non-conference games, the best option is the 22 game conference schedule...with no non-D1 games (at least for Valpo).
Unquestionably, adding 4 conference games should make OOC scheduling an infinitely easier task with better results, yet I'll believe it when I see it.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 24, 2022, 08:29:06 AM
The other issue that is risky is the current state of Chicago as they are in massive debt, becoming a third world city (many rich, many poor, no middle class), and an incompetent government requiring an enema.
Since UIC is part of the Illinois university system, the bigger concerns are the state's financial issues (not the city's). However, the state has been woefully in debt for many years.
Ah finally. A team we should be able to go 2-0 against. Always enjoyed getting to UIC and hitting up greektown or little Italy. Hope it helps us somewhat remain viable in Chicagoland and recruits can still "go away from home" while still being close and getting back for a game.
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 24, 2022, 10:32:52 AMQuote from: usc4valpo on January 24, 2022, 08:29:06 AMThe other issue that is risky is the current state of Chicago as they are in massive debt, becoming a third world city (many rich, many poor, no middle class), and an incompetent government requiring an enema.
Since UIC is part of the Illinois university system, the bigger concerns are the state's financial issues (not the city's). However, the state has been woefully in debt for many years.
And yet their enrollment and endowment have been growing by leaps and bounds for years... I think they're fine...
Quote from: elephtheria47 on January 24, 2022, 12:13:34 PMAh finally. A team we should be able to go 2-0 against. Always enjoyed getting to UIC and hitting up greektown or little Italy. Hope it helps us somewhat remain viable in Chicagoland and recruits can still "go away from home" while still being close and getting back for a game.
Except they literally just swept a home and home against us so that's no guarantee either.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on January 24, 2022, 12:13:34 PMAh finally. A team we should be able to go 2-0 against.
Really? On November 13 we lost to them in overtime AT our place. Last year we lost by 15 at their place. We've got a ways to go before we can predict we can absolutely beat anyone.
Ok, UIC has cash but no fan base. Very few in Chicago care about UIC basketball. cripe, they don't really care about DePaul either, and support for Loyola for the results they have had should be much better.
Chicago is a terrible college sports town.
Quote from: wh on January 24, 2022, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 23, 2022, 10:54:11 PM
What are thoughts on scheduling with 12 teams? Round robin with a 22 game conference schedule? Two divisions with a round robin in the division and then play other teams once (i.e. 16 games)? Something more creative?
My guess is that, given the difficulty scheduling non-conference games, the best option is the 22 game conference schedule...with no non-D1 games (at least for Valpo).
Unquestionably, adding 4 conference games should make OOC scheduling an infinitely easier task with better results, yet I'll believe it when I see it.
One would hope the Non Conference schedule would be better with 9 games. It could look like this:
3 MTE games
1 paid game at a power 6
2 home buy games @ the ARC
1 start a Rivalry game (we need one bad!)
1 Home and Home
1 Home non D-1
As much as it pains me to say it, I don't think the non D-1 game goes away. If played right that would get Valpo 4-5 home non conference games a season.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 24, 2022, 08:29:06 AM1314 - disagree about Valpo taking risks. In general, they have been way too conservative and reactive in all areas of decision making. Regarding the jump to the MVC for all sports, their financial commitment for whatever reason is not on par. I think Valpo thought they could get away with a discount lunch. Regarding UIC, it can be big reward but it is an uphill climb. Generally, Chicago and the UIC alums don't care about their athletics. I think the $4.5m soccer upgrade is impressive, but note that UIC has a diverse student body and it makes sense to have this investment. UIC D1 basketball has been around for 40 years and never caught on. I still like the risk. The other issue that is risky is the current state of Chicago as they are in massive debt, becoming a third world city (many rich, many poor, no middle class), and an incompetent government requiring an enema.
There is never any such thing as a perfect expansion candidate. If you dig deeply enough you will find warts with every single one of them which is why they aren't founding members of the conferences they later join. Of the three Belmont probably comes close to the perfect mix of market institutional profile and athletics performance being perfect for the MVC but even then there were people who didn't like the travel (even though it's not a huge expansion of the footprint especially with Murray State also in the conference) or felt like they hadn't proven their record of success long enough or through enough coaching transitions. With Murray State it was always about the market and with UIC it's performance based but all three check significant boxes in the areas they are strong in which is why they were added.
I say all that to ask this: what exactly did you want out of expansion? When Murray State was being considered you were against adding "truck stop schools" as you called them despite the obvious record of performance now when UIC is added which is decidedly NOT a "truck stop school" you are worried about fan support and whether Chicago cares about college sports. I just don't get it. The league accomplished literally every goal it set out to with this expansion except finding Missouri State a suitable travel partner to make them less of an outlier. In this expansion the MVC:
1. Added not one but two high performing schools that should compete very well early on in the league helping to secure the post-Loyola future (Belmont and Murray State)
2. Held on to a critical market for MVC institutions vacated by Loyola's departure (UIC)
3. Added two schools growing rapidly in enrollment and endowment (Belmont and UIC)
4. Added a strong enough presence in the south with Belmont and Murray State that the MVC might be able to greatly expand its media reach if the negotiations with the RSN's prove fruitful
5. Significantly helped out Arch Madness (which generates money for the schools in the conference) by inviting a rabid fanbase that travels well (Murray State).
6. Added schools that will contribute significantly as overall athletic departments and will make non revenue sports even more competitive enhancing conference stability. (all 3 additions) Someone mentioned that perhaps the MVC can bring men's tennis back under its umbrella which might allow Valpo to restart the program (and maybe restart Men's soccer at some point as well).
Ignoring the Missouri State issue (which might well be overblown considering Missouri State's AD was head of the expansion committee and they just recently turned down overtures from Conference USA signaling that they must be pretty happy with the overall direction of the Valley) I'd have to say this is some A+ work by the MVC in handling this era of transition and the conference will be even better for it.
What would you have done differently? And please don't say SFA and UTA because UIC is better than UTA at almost everything institutionally and comparable or better athletically in all sports except Men's basketball with most of UTA's success in basketball coming under Scott Cross who is no longer there anyway. Moreover UIC doesn't blow up the travel budgets like UTA would and Murray State is a superior addition to SFA in virtually every respect. Belmont as I recall you were supportive of.
1314 - everything is cool. Just having fun - my wife went to SFA, and my concerns are people being overly Midwest biased. I am also a proud alum of a conference of champions school for which historically by this board rarely gets respect. But it is about sports, the toy department of life as Howard Cosell once said.
The MVC did a decent job selecting, and the risk adding UIC can pay big.
As for Valpo, for which I care more about than the status of the MVC - they need to step up - I am very concerned Matt may not be the right fit for the job and I think Valpo must address this and find a solution. Matt is a piece of the puzzle - We have big problems right now - mediocre play, fan apathy, bad facilities, lack of cash, etc.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 25, 2022, 06:56:52 AMAs for Valpo, for which I care more about than the status of the MVC - they need to step up - I am very concerned Matt may not be the right fit for the job and I think Valpo must address this and find a solution. Matt is a piece of the puzzle - We have big problems right now - mediocre play, fan apathy, bad facilities, lack of cash, etc.
Agree here. One thing yhat is bugging me is the "coach speak" generated by both Matt and Mary. You know, the "we want to play our best in March"comments. This is the stuff of Captain Obvious. It is seemingly generated by trying to overlook a really bad start to the season--as if those games mean nothing. True, they mean nothing toward getting the automatic bid, but they mean a lot when taking into account how the negative results affect the conference rankings and the chance at multiple bids nor the more obvious one that even if you get the automatic bid, with a near 500 record, you' end up as a 14 or 15 seed with next to zero chance of a win, let alone multiple wins.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 25, 2022, 06:56:52 AM1314 - everything is cool. Just having fun - my wife went to SFA, and my concerns are people being overly Midwest biased. I am also a proud alum of a conference of champions school for which historically by this board rarely gets respect. But it is about sports, the toy department of life as Howard Cosell once said. The MVC did a decent job selecting, and the risk adding UIC can pay big. As for Valpo, for which I care more about than the status of the MVC - they need to step up - I am very concerned Matt may not be the right fit for the job and I think Valpo must address this and find a solution. Matt is a piece of the puzzle - We have big problems right now - mediocre play, fan apathy, bad facilities, lack of cash, etc.
I get that. I don't have a problem with looking outside the midwest for quality for the league but it has to be for the right add(s). I think I have said before but if not I will state it here: I would be all for SFA as an MVC candidate if that were realistic but seeing as how they just moved and given some of the potential FBS rumors (not sure how serious those are beyond message board chatter) I don't see that as an option.
If we're taking a risk I'd prefer that risk not overly inflate travel budgets which would hurt the overall competitiveness of other teams in the league by drawing resources away from other things. Like it or not at our level resources are always limited and we have to be smart on what we emphasize. I firmly believe that our geographic compactness and the fact that we have historically not relied on markets as a basis for expansion decisions but on performance and whether that performance has a solid underpinning (although this is definitely changing in our current age are huge strengths of this league and allow us to punch well above our weight class which I have always admired and loved.
I agree Valpo needs to step up and I am very concerned about Valpo's performance as well and the fact that we quite frankly haven't delivered since our invite. One of the reasons I was so pro-expansion was because I had hoped that if Valpo wasn't willing to make more commitments to investment and facilities getting embarrassed by some Johnny Come Latelys who handle the transition quicker and better than us will shock Valpo out of its complacency and get them to make the investments that are long overdue for the program. Coaching will help with that but I think there's no doubt that Valpo is hamstrung by the facilities issue and of course the facilities of our peers and the current and forthcoming investments at Belmont UIC and Murray State especially Murray State's proposal which is really impressive won't help that.
If however it's just a question of not having the resources then I apologize for harping on this so much but I think Valpo likely does have the resources to at least make the process of improvements go a little faster than this. I know we're on the same side of this issue. We all are. We want good things for Valpo but if Valpo can't or won't deliver then finding other schools that can to make the conference stronger and bring in more bids and tournament revenue is a good thing. It just comes down to the extent to which you believe Valpo is responsible for their own underperformance and I believe that while some things are beyond Valpo's control as a small private school with a small largely academics focused alumni base there are multiple areas where the problems are eminently fixable with just a little more work and effort.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 25, 2022, 08:40:13 AMIt just comes down to the extent to which you believe Valpo is responsible for their own underperformance and I believe that while some things are beyond Valpo's control as a small private school with a small largely academics focused alumni base there are multiple areas where the problems are eminently fixable with just a little more work and effort.
While we all want Valpo to be more competitive, some perspective is needed here. We don't just play basketball. We play softball, baseball and other sports that are very popular in the Valley.
In the most recent addition of AD insights, Mark LaBarbera said that Valpo will now be able to broadcast both softball and baseball games on ESPN+. That is huge for national exposure and recruiting. It didn't happen because it was a cheap add. I'm no expert in what adding broadcasting capabilities to our venues might have cost, but it was a lot, maybe a combined $1 million dollar price tag--who knows. So we are still bringing our overall facilities up to Valley standards. We all want the ARC to be brought up to Valley standards. President Padilla has said so as well but that is going to cost a lot more than $1 million.
In comparison, consider the one school who had done worse than us since joining the Valley. In both Men's and Women's basketball, Evansville is clearly at the bottom. They joined the conference in 1994! We joined in 2015. They had a 21 year lead on us! Or how about Indiana State, who we just beat and who is hanging out near the bottom of the Men's race. They joined in 1976!!!!! So, keep the fact that we are the second smallest school in the conference with zero state funding and then look at our progress, albeit slow, but still progress, nonetheless.
Quote from: vu72 on January 25, 2022, 09:36:03 AM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 25, 2022, 08:40:13 AMIt just comes down to the extent to which you believe Valpo is responsible for their own underperformance and I believe that while some things are beyond Valpo's control as a small private school with a small largely academics focused alumni base there are multiple areas where the problems are eminently fixable with just a little more work and effort.
While we all want Valpo to be more competitive, some perspective is needed here. We don't just play basketball. We play softball, baseball and other sports that are very popular in the Valley.
In the most recent addition of AD insights, Mark LaBarbera said that Valpo will now be able to broadcast both softball and baseball games on ESPN+. That is huge for national exposure and recruiting. It didn't happen because it was a cheap add. I'm no expert in what adding broadcasting capabilities to our venues might have cost, but it was a lot, maybe a combined $1 million dollar price tag--who knows. So we are still bringing our overall facilities up to Valley standards. We all want the ARC to be brought up to Valley standards. President Padilla has said so as well but that is going to cost a lot more than $1 million.
In comparison, consider the one school who had done worse than us since joining the Valley. In both Men's and Women's basketball, Evansville is clearly at the bottom. They joined the conference in 1994! We joined in 2015. They had a 21 year lead on us! Or how about Indiana State, who we just beat and who is hanging out near the bottom of the Men's race. They joined in 1976!!!!! So, keep the fact that we are the second smallest school in the conference with zero state funding and then look at our progress, albeit slow, but still progress, nonetheless.
As a potential season ticket purchaser, basketball is all that I care about. If VU can do what is necessary to focus on making men's basketball a mid-major powerhouse, a major success, a large chunk of money will come in increased attendance. Winning games fill the arenas. It's all about making the commitment, not just talking about it. I'm sure the ARC would be packed if we were at the top of the teams in the MVC. Concessions and beer revenue would be much better than what they currently are. Personally, I will not buy one ticket to watch Valpo until I see that the administration isn't all talk and no action.
I've seen the ARC packed and the excitement level through the roof. We coached, recruited, and played better. Bring it back and continue to build. If you can't afford to do it, go back to the Summit or Horizon league and continue to be happy with mediocrity.
nice - if Drake can be successful, why cant Valpo. They are going through similar financial challenges. Maybe it is the revenue from the Drake Relays.
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 25, 2022, 11:00:43 AMQuote from: vu72 on January 25, 2022, 09:36:03 AMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on January 25, 2022, 08:40:13 AMIt just comes down to the extent to which you believe Valpo is responsible for their own underperformance and I believe that while some things are beyond Valpo's control as a small private school with a small largely academics focused alumni base there are multiple areas where the problems are eminently fixable with just a little more work and effort.
While we all want Valpo to be more competitive, some perspective is needed here. We don't just play basketball. We play softball, baseball and other sports that are very popular in the Valley. In the most recent addition of AD insights, Mark LaBarbera said that Valpo will now be able to broadcast both softball and baseball games on ESPN+. That is huge for national exposure and recruiting. It didn't happen because it was a cheap add. I'm no expert in what adding broadcasting capabilities to our venues might have cost, but it was a lot, maybe a combined $1 million dollar price tag--who knows. So we are still bringing our overall facilities up to Valley standards. We all want the ARC to be brought up to Valley standards. President Padilla has said so as well but that is going to cost a lot more than $1 million. In comparison, consider the one school who had done worse than us since joining the Valley. In both Men's and Women's basketball, Evansville is clearly at the bottom. They joined the conference in 1994! We joined in 2015. They had a 21 year lead on us! Or how about Indiana State, who we just beat and who is hanging out near the bottom of the Men's race. They joined in 1976!!!!! So, keep the fact that we are the second smallest school in the conference with zero state funding and then look at our progress, albeit slow, but still progress, nonetheless.
As a potential season ticket purchaser, basketball is all that I care about. If VU can do what is necessary to focus on making men's basketball a mid-major powerhouse, a major success, a large chunk of money will come in increased attendance. Winning games fill the arenas. It's all about making the commitment, not just talking about it. I'm sure the ARC would be packed if we were at the top of the teams in the MVC. Concessions and beer revenue would be much better than what they currently are. Personally, I will not buy one ticket to watch Valpo until I see that the administration isn't all talk and no action. I've seen the ARC packed and the excitement level through the roof. We coached, recruited, and played better. Bring it back and continue to build. If you can't afford to do it, go back to the Summit or Horizon league and continue to be happy with mediocrity.
We won't and shouldn't go anywhere. No disrespect to our former leagues but a bad season in the MVC beats the best the HL or Summit have to offer. Or did we all forget 2015-2016 already? Drake had a similar resume to ours and got in in 2021. I have no doubt if we had put up the same numbers against an MVC schedule back in 15-16 we would have been in the tournament and done some damage. I don't think we're going to languish at the bottom of this conference forever but even if we do I'm happy we made the jump when the opportunity presented itself. If (when?) we rise to the top again we will all see just how worthwhile this move was and is if we haven't already.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 25, 2022, 11:46:35 AM
nice - if Drake can be successful, why cant Valpo. They are going through similar financial challenges. Maybe it is the revenue from the Drake Relays.
They have a really good coach and probably a bit more of an athletics focused alumni base. Moreover, they have more of a market than Valpo. I know Des Moines isn't great but it's a lot more reach than Valpo. I still think Valpo can eventually do it but Drake has a few advantages in the game that Valpo can't really replicate easily. Of course having Drake poach a bunch of players from Valpo's backyard wasn't great for us either but that's beside the point. DeVries looks like he can be pretty successful no matter what kind of roster you hand him. Coaching might be the biggest factor in Drake's rise here because while there's been signs of commitment from Drake it hasn't been spectacular and as I said the market size probably isn't a huge deal even if it is something of a factor at least a little bit.
Drake does a much better job promoting their team and making it a better gameday experience, which is something that can done at Valpo. They also have to compete with neighboring Iowa State for the dollar which is challenging. I wonder if Valpo keeps going back to 1998, similar to how Bear fans reminisce about the 1885-86 Super Bowl season.
If Drake can do it, so can Valpo. Both schools are strapped for cash. Find a way.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 25, 2022, 11:46:35 AM
nice - if Drake can be successful, why cant Valpo. They are going through similar financial challenges. Maybe it is the revenue from the Drake Relays.
Drake professors speak out about cuts to course offerings, summer paybyGRACE ALTENHOFEN October 17, 2021
https://timesdelphic.com/2021/10/33057/
It would be interesting to see what professor salaries compare at the private vs public university level.
That being said interesting article. Drake draws more than Valpo for Mens BB, and I would bet they make a killing from the Drake Relays. It is a better college atmosphere which is really lacking at Valpo.
Hate to say it, but Evansville might be a better apples to apples comparison.
How many D1 private schools are in small communities like Valpo?
Evansville - larger community
Bradley - Peoria is a larger community
Mercy - larger
Loyola - larger
Belmont - larger
Drake -larger
Butler - larger
Dayton - larger
Robert Morris - larger
ORU - larger
Campbell - about the same?
Davidson - about the same?
Liberty - about the same?
https://www.collegevine.com/schools/private-colleges-with-d1-basketball (https://www.collegevine.com/schools/private-colleges-with-d1-basketball)
Really the only fans of private schools outside of Notre Dame, Duke, Stanford, Miami, USC :censored:, are the alumni themselves. See the above list, the only fans of those schools are alumni. A big problem with Valpo is that in a town of 40,000 there aren't very much alumni living there. Possibly more alumni in the region, but it takes dedication to drive in 20 degrees, sometimes snow for a game that you have less than a .500 chance of winning with no halftime entertainment that looks more like street ball than organized offense. Do they sell beer at the ARC yet?
I would say that the UCF game I attended in Orlando has probably 100-150 Valpo fans. Also had a great alumni event/pre game at a local bar. But the 100-150 Valpo fans were probably more than the UCF fans when we played in Indiana.
Valpo has a better chance of drawing a hundred or so fans in Dallas, Orlando, Kansas City, Chicago than say N. Iowa, Southern Illinois or Indiana St. would. But as far as a home crowd it's much easier for those schools (despite being in small similar communities as Valparaiso) because they are much larger schools.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 25, 2022, 08:10:56 PM
It would be interesting to see what professor salaries compare at the private vs public university level.
That is not really the right question. The right question is how do salaries compare for R1 vs. balanced vs. teaching schools. Murray State (a public university) is more of a teaching school like Valpo and, thus, has similar pay. Notre Dame's pay would be comparable to Indiana or Purdue (since all are R1s). R1 schools drive far greater research grants, but the salary differences are also driven by demand for people that can do very high end research work.
Ironically, in 2022-2023 the only MVC school that is R1 (and thus has the highest salaries) will be UIC.
UIC to the MVC , not the school I'd have picked but regionally it Mayes sense I suppose
Quote from: VUSWIM08-12 on January 26, 2022, 02:22:11 PMUIC to the MVC , not the school I'd have picked but regionally it Mayes sense I suppose
I was down down on them initially too but I'm wholly on board now. This has a chance to be a big time addition one day. They have a high overall athletics budget good facilities and the Chicago market is so very important to the MVC and to basketball recruiting in general. Their endowment and enrollment are growing by leaps and bounds which means there is strong potential for future athletic and academic growth. I think it would be foolish to expect Loyola level results but they could be really really good if they commit to basketball and we give them a few years' time.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 26, 2022, 03:30:58 PM
Quote from: VUSWIM08-12 on January 26, 2022, 02:22:11 PMUIC to the MVC , not the school I'd have picked but regionally it Mayes sense I suppose
I was down down on them initially too but I'm wholly on board now. This has a chance to be a big time addition one day. They have a high overall athletics budget good facilities and the Chicago market is so very important to the MVC and to basketball recruiting in general. Their endowment and enrollment are growing by leaps and bounds which means there is strong potential for future athletic and academic growth. I think it would be foolish to expect Loyola level results but they could be really really good if they commit to basketball and we give them a few years' time.
I'm good with UIC now that we have Belmont and Murray State on board. I've never been to Gentile arena at Loyola to compare with UIC, but I do think UIC Pavilion is a good venue for the conference. Who knows if UIC takes off like Loyola, UIC has been more middle of the pack in the Horizon League than Loyola was when they entered The Valley. It would not shock me at all if they start to have greater success in the near future. As a Valpo fan, I get concerned that three more teams are going to enter the conference, pass us up and not look back leaving us in the cellar. I hope we start pulling our weight sooner than later.
I've been thinking lately about just how different the tone surrounding this realignment period for the MVC has been. I almost feel like the last two times the MVC suffered a defection (Creighton and Wichita State) pundits and observers rushed to write the epitaph for the conference. I feel like that was a residual effect of the MVC's having cracked the RPI code back in the mid 2000s resulting in the conference having an ability to punch way above its weight in terms of bids and tournament wins. But this time feels different. I don't know whether it's a testament to the overall quality of the league (the fact that UNI and Illinois State stepped up with at large caliber squads (even though Illinois State didn't get in) after Creighton left and then Loyola went supernova after Wichita State left and UNI and Drake fielded at large caliber squads at that time too (even though UNI would not have gotten in in all likelihood during the COVID year) or if it's because people believe in the quality of the additions the MVC is made but it feels like nobody is throwing dirt on the MVC after Loyola this time. Has anyone else noticed this? What do you think?
The HL's decision to refuse to allow UIC to participate in their conference tournament has caught the attention of Waddle and Silvy, ESPN 1000 Chicago's afternoon show. They said they are going to go on a crusade to get the HL to reverse course. They understand the HL is within its rights to do it, or not do it, since UIC did not give full notice, but to penalize the players after all they have dealt with since COVID is heartless. They have spoken to UIC's AD off the air and will have him on the air shortly. They also noted that UIC is fully prepared to pay all financial penalties. Silvy is an SIU alum and follows the Valley closely. He noted that Loyola is leaving the MVC for greener pastures and there is no discussion of excluding them from Arch Madness, despite being one of the favorites to win it.
MSU press conference announcing move to MVC
https://goracers.com/news/2022/1/6/general-murray-state-racers-jan-7.aspx
First, this put Valpo's announcement press conference to shame. Far more importantly, everything said by MSU leadership exposes Valparaiso University and its past claims of institutional support for men's bb for what it is - completely fraudulant.
Pay particular attention starting at the 8-minute mark:
- Not only does MSU's bb facility put the ARC to shame, they have an official plan underway to revamp their entire facility. Valpo lied about having a plan to gain entrance in the MVC. Six years later we still have no plan, There's probably not even enough money to conduct a feasibility study, formulate an engineering plan, or even do an artist's rendering. We have no donors, no money, impending staff layoffs, reduction of academic programs, and - the ARC isn't even at the top of the needed facilities list.
- They wanted to be fully prepared to put their best foot forward in anticipation of this opportunity.
- Note Commissioner Jackson's comment about how institutional commitment to athletics is of primary importance to ALL current MVC members. How embarrassing.
- Pay particular attention to their AD's comments and how substantive they are. Not the empty-headed meaningless fluff from past Valpo leadership, carefully framed to not get caught actually committing to something or saying anything that can't be pulled back.
THIS is the completely disgraceful, totally unforgivable 800-pound gorilla in the room that is going to kill Valpo men's basketball forever, not some basketball coach who needs to coach better at the end of games, or needs to stop bringing in Big 10 rejects, or whatever the bitch of the day is.
Basically, I've had it. I'll continue to support men's basketball - for now - but I'm done supporting Valparaiso University the institution.
Quote from: wh on February 11, 2022, 03:42:30 PM
MSU press conference announcing move to MVC
https://goracers.com/news/2022/1/6/general-murray-state-racers-jan-7.aspx
First, this put Valpo's announcement press conference to shame. Far more importantly, everything said by MSU leadership exposes Valparaiso University and its past claims of institutional support for men's bb for what it is - completely fraudulant.
Pay particular attention starting at the 8-minute mark:
- Not only does MSU's bb facility put the ARC to shame, they have an official plan underway to revamp their entire facility. Valpo lied about having a plan to gain entrance in the MVC. Six years later we still have no plan, There's probably not even enough money to conduct a feasibility study, formulate an engineering plan, or even do an artist's rendering. We have no donors, no money, impending staff layoffs, reduction of academic programs, and - the ARC isn't even at the top of the needed facilities list.
- They wanted to be fully prepared to put their best foot forward in anticipation of this opportunity.
- Note Commissioner Jackson's comment about how institutional commitment to athletics is of primary importance to ALL current MVC members. How embarrassing.
- Pay particular attention to their AD's comments and how substantive they are. Not the empty-headed meaningless fluff from past Valpo leadership, carefully framed to not get caught actually committing to something or saying anything that can't be pulled back.
THIS is the completely disgraceful, totally unforgivable 800-pound gorilla in the room that is going to kill Valpo men's basketball forever, not some basketball coach who needs to coach better at the end of games, or needs to stop bringing in Big 10 rejects, or whatever the bitch of the day is.
Basically, I've had it. I'll continue to support men's basketball - for now - but I'm done supporting Valparaiso University the institution.
Let's remember that CSFB Center, Murray State's 8600 seat arena that is next to their campus cost $23M to build (it opened in 1998). Of that $23M, $18M was paid for by the state of Kentucky after it was approved by the Kentucky general assembly.
Also, while there are programs being eliminated at Valpo, there are also programs being added.
I'm as upset as anyone about the slow pace of facilities development and the apparently dubious nature of the university's commitment to athletic success. It is a huge problem maybe even moreso than our current coach but vu84v2 raises a salient point. It's really easy to raise money when you have the state legislature backing 75+% of your project for you. It's the same reason Indiana State's facility is so nice despite them facing a lot of the same financial obstacles. As a private institution this is not an avenue available to us. We need more committed donors we need to make athletics more of a priority and while many will say words are wind (and they are right) words and aspirations are about all we have until the money shows up somehow.
Quote from: wh on February 11, 2022, 03:42:30 PMFirst, this put Valpo's announcement press conference to shame. Far more importantly, everything said by MSU leadership exposes Valparaiso University and its past claims of institutional support for men's bb for what it is - completely fraudulant.
Quote from: wh on February 11, 2022, 03:42:30 PMTHIS is the completely disgraceful, totally unforgivable 800-pound gorilla in the room that is going to kill Valpo men's basketball forever, not some basketball coach who needs to coach better at the end of games, or needs to stop bringing in Big 10 rejects, or whatever the bitch of the day is.
wh, you really just need to take a break or a valium perhaps. The University will survive and just maybe, the major benefactors are about more than basketball. Deep breath, deep breath, deep breath.
Quote from: vu72 on February 12, 2022, 08:41:29 AM
Quote from: wh on February 11, 2022, 03:42:30 PMFirst, this put Valpo's announcement press conference to shame. Far more importantly, everything said by MSU leadership exposes Valparaiso University and its past claims of institutional support for men's bb for what it is - completely fraudulant.
Quote from: wh on February 11, 2022, 03:42:30 PMTHIS is the completely disgraceful, totally unforgivable 800-pound gorilla in the room that is going to kill Valpo men's basketball forever, not some basketball coach who needs to coach better at the end of games, or needs to stop bringing in Big 10 rejects, or whatever the bitch of the day is.
wh, you really just need to take a break or a valium perhaps. The University will survive and just maybe, the major benefactors are about more than basketball. Deep breath, deep breath, deep breath.
I bet the law grads thought the same thing a few years ago.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
wh-Since many of your beefs are for past transgressions, why not give the new leadership a fair shot? The President is still new and has identified The Arc as his second most important facility upgrade, behind a new Nursing building. He also actually attends many Valpo sports events and talks about Athletics in a holistic, supportive way, unlike his predecessors. He has pushed forward with a new AD who will be named in a few short months. When my kids made bone-headed moves, my job as their biggest supporter was to help them learn from their experiences and give them the resources to achieve a better outcome the next opportunity, not bail on them. If President Padilla thought that we were in a great place, he wouldn't have done what he's done and said what he's said. If he were complacent, you would have every right to your criticism; and if things don't change at all or too slowly, you can also circle back with more heat. Many of your criticisms are valid and the new leadership team agrees on a lot of it.
I just don't understand the big picture. I am concluding that the $250M fundraiser may not have been an important endeavor since that complete sum will never exist.
I hope we are all rooting that Padilla will get the job done - and he has big challenge to keep things afloat.
Quote from: usc4valpo on February 13, 2022, 08:51:01 AMI just don't understand the big picture. I am concluding that the $250M fundraiser may not have been an important endeavor since that complete sum will never exist.
Not sure you understand how endowment works. Some of this money is already in, like the $1.1 million gift from the estate of Dale Kempf ($350,000 of which was spent on renovating the basketball practice facility) the endowment and the balance is "Pledged" most likely meaning it will be part of an estate gift. Many of the big hitters, financially, are in their eighties and, although I never want to wish ill for a follow alumni member, we all have a limited shelf life. Once the funds are "in the bank", typically, 5% is actually available for distribution, although as was the case with the Kempf gift, some are spent immediately. So 300 million would generate 15 million annually. One of the pledges is for 2 million for basketball recruiting. When that comes in that would generate 100,000 annually. That will help!
Quote from: vu72 on February 13, 2022, 09:59:45 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on February 13, 2022, 08:51:01 AMI just don't understand the big picture. I am concluding that the $250M fundraiser may not have been an important endeavor since that complete sum will never exist.
Not sure you understand how endowment works. Some of this money is already in, like the $1.1 million gift from the estate of Dale Kempf ($350,000 of which was spent on renovating the basketball practice facility) the endowment and the balance is "Pledged" most likely meaning it will be part of an estate gift. Many of the big hitters, financially, are in their eighties and, although I never want to wish ill for a follow alumni member, we all have a limited shelf life. Once the funds are "in the bank", typically, 5% is actually available for distribution, although as was the case with the Kempf gift, some are spent immediately. So 300 million would generate 15 million annually. One of the pledges is for 2 million for basketball recruiting. When that comes in that would generate 100,000 annually. That will help!
Just to add to vu72's comments, my understanding (which I would have also guessed) is that Valpo's donors are highly reliable - meaning that if they pledge an amount to be given over time or to be given as part of an estate, Valpo can be very confident that they will eventually receive the money.
Murray State (21) and Belmont recognized in new AP Top 25 Poll. No votes for any current MVC teams.
New top 25 (as of Feb. 14):
1. Gonzaga
2. Auburn
3. Arizona
4. Kentucky
5. Purdue
6. Kansas
7. Baylor
8. Providence
9. Duke
10. Villanova
11. Texas Tech
12. Illinois
13. UCLA
14. Houston
15. Wisconsin
16. Tennessee
17. USC
18. Ohio State
19. Michigan State
20. Texas
21. Murray State
22. Wyoming
23. Arkansas
24. UConn
25. Alabama
Others receiving votes: Marquette 77, Xavier 51, Colorado State 29, Saint Mary's (Cal) 22, LSU 18, Iowa 17, Notre Dame 17, SMU 14, Rutgers 10, Virginia 4, South Dakota State 3, Toledo 3, Miami 3, Boise St. 3, San Francisco 2, Belmont 2, Vermont 1, Wake Forest 1.
Quote from: wh on February 11, 2022, 03:42:30 PMMSU press conference announcing move to MVC https://goracers.com/news/2022/1/6/general-murray-state-racers-jan-7.aspx First, this put Valpo's announcement press conference to shame. Far more importantly, everything said by MSU leadership exposes Valparaiso University and its past claims of institutional support for men's bb for what it is - completely fraudulant. Pay particular attention starting at the 8-minute mark: - Not only does MSU's bb facility put the ARC to shame, they have an official plan underway to revamp their entire facility. Valpo lied about having a plan to gain entrance in the MVC. Six years later we still have no plan, There's probably not even enough money to conduct a feasibility study, formulate an engineering plan, or even do an artist's rendering. We have no donors, no money, impending staff layoffs, reduction of academic programs, and - the ARC isn't even at the top of the needed facilities list. - They wanted to be fully prepared to put their best foot forward in anticipation of this opportunity. - Note Commissioner Jackson's comment about how institutional commitment to athletics is of primary importance to ALL current MVC members. How embarrassing. - Pay particular attention to their AD's comments and how substantive they are. Not the empty-headed meaningless fluff from past Valpo leadership, carefully framed to not get caught actually committing to something or saying anything that can't be pulled back. THIS is the completely disgraceful, totally unforgivable 800-pound gorilla in the room that is going to kill Valpo men's basketball forever, not some basketball coach who needs to coach better at the end of games, or needs to stop bringing in Big 10 rejects, or whatever the bitch of the day is. Basically, I've had it. I'll continue to support men's basketball - for now - but I'm done supporting Valparaiso University the institution.
I remember a recruiting trip back to Valpo for Football some 20+ years ago where I was shown a picture of what the new Football stadium would look like when the funding was complete and that "I should be playing at that stadium before my senior year..." well 20+ years later and its the same crappy stadium. New field turf was nice sure, but those stands are a disgrace. It was back then and definitely is now (actually worse since the track was added since it was moved even further from the field). Same for the ARC. They have let what was barely acceptable basically untouched until the point where it is embarrassing. And if I hear about Hilltop and the investment that was put in there as an excuse one more time...
Quote from: vuny98 on February 14, 2022, 02:03:33 PM
Quote from: wh on February 11, 2022, 03:42:30 PMMSU press conference announcing move to MVC https://goracers.com/news/2022/1/6/general-murray-state-racers-jan-7.aspx First, this put Valpo's announcement press conference to shame. Far more importantly, everything said by MSU leadership exposes Valparaiso University and its past claims of institutional support for men's bb for what it is - completely fraudulant. Pay particular attention starting at the 8-minute mark: - Not only does MSU's bb facility put the ARC to shame, they have an official plan underway to revamp their entire facility. Valpo lied about having a plan to gain entrance in the MVC. Six years later we still have no plan, There's probably not even enough money to conduct a feasibility study, formulate an engineering plan, or even do an artist's rendering. We have no donors, no money, impending staff layoffs, reduction of academic programs, and - the ARC isn't even at the top of the needed facilities list. - They wanted to be fully prepared to put their best foot forward in anticipation of this opportunity. - Note Commissioner Jackson's comment about how institutional commitment to athletics is of primary importance to ALL current MVC members. How embarrassing. - Pay particular attention to their AD's comments and how substantive they are. Not the empty-headed meaningless fluff from past Valpo leadership, carefully framed to not get caught actually committing to something or saying anything that can't be pulled back. THIS is the completely disgraceful, totally unforgivable 800-pound gorilla in the room that is going to kill Valpo men's basketball forever, not some basketball coach who needs to coach better at the end of games, or needs to stop bringing in Big 10 rejects, or whatever the bitch of the day is. Basically, I've had it. I'll continue to support men's basketball - for now - but I'm done supporting Valparaiso University the institution.
I remember a recruiting trip back to Valpo for Football some 20+ years ago where I was shown a picture of what the new Football stadium would look like when the funding was complete and that "I should be playing at that stadium before my senior year..." well 20+ years later and its the same crappy stadium. New field turf was nice sure, but those stands are a disgrace. It was back then and definitely is now (actually worse since the track was added since it was moved even further from the field). Same for the ARC. They have let what was barely acceptable basically untouched until the point where it is embarrassing. And if I hear about Hilltop and the investment that was put in there as an excuse one more time...
We were told the same thing about a new Baseball stadium 22 years ago :). The idea was that VU was going to partner with a potential minor league team, which never panned out.
vuny98 and valpotx: You both make some great points about commitments regarding facilities. Regardless of whether it is athletics or some other part of a university, potential students and athletes should never be sold on new facilities unless the money is in hand and the administration has approved.
Of note, Murray State heads into the OVC final, while Belmont gets upset by 2 against Morehead State in the semifinals.
I've seen a number of both Murray St and Belmont games this season. Murray St is going to be a problem for the MVC. Belmont I'm not sure is.
I just realized that Murray St. only has 6 men's sports teams and only 4 of the 6 are sports that are sponsored by the Missouri Valley. Is Murray St. moving the football team to the Valley? They also have riffle.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 07, 2022, 10:15:11 AMThey also have riffle.
Duh, Everybody in the hills of Kentucky has a riffle! :rotfl:
Murray State and UIC bring solid baseball programs to the MVC. I do wonder how long DBU sticks with the MVC.
DBU? I think Belmont will be a decent representative to the MVC, probably better in the short term than UIC.
What options does DBU have? Southland?
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 07, 2022, 08:58:54 PMDBU? I think Belmont will be a decent representative to the MVC, probably better in the short term than UIC.
Dallas Baptist is a baseball only member of the MVC
Dallas Baptist could have their pick of Baseball conferences, due to the quality of their program. Maybe they stick it out long-term, but some of the Southern conferences have to approach them each year about a transfer in conferences.
Yes they probably have their pick of conferences outside of power 5. But which conference would they want?
WAC, southland, summit, aSun?
The Southland would make sense, but that conference is splitting a bit
There is certainly nothing wrong with MVC baseball as far as competitiveness and quality is concerned.
Quote from: valpo64 on March 11, 2022, 08:36:45 PM
There is certainly nothing wrong with MVC baseball as far as competitiveness and quality is concerned.
Correct, that is not what I am saying. I've just always wondered how long DBU can float Baseball in a conference where the closest member is Missouri State.
I don't see any problem unless DBU has wider athletic ambitions. Are they having financial issues?
They don't have a large endowment, and are similar to Valpo in being a smaller private school, which we all know has a higher risk at this point in time.
Loyola is leaving the MVC as an impressive #10 seed. They will win us some cash if they can advance.
But now we gain a current #7 seed, Murray State. They might not have Loyola staying power, but it is the type of program that seems to win a game in the NCAA every so often. Go Racers in the Dance!!
I'd expect both Murray and Belmont to be near the top of the conference immediately. UIC may take a few years, but I've heard rumors from a reliable source that they are discussing replacing the Pavilion with a new facility, in which case that would speed their process of moving up the MVC ladder.
Quote from: crusadermoe on March 15, 2022, 03:52:25 PM
Loyola is leaving the MVC as an impressive #10 seed. They will win us some cash if they can advance.
But now we gain a current #7 seed, Murray State. They might not have Loyola staying power, but it is the type of program that seems to win a game in the NCAA every so often. Go Racers in the Dance!!
You don't know if Murray State will have Loyola staying power? It is the other way around. Murray State has more sustained success than Loyola over the last 20+ years, though granted, they haven't gotten as far in the dance previously.
Loyola does have its advantages - decent academics, lots of wealthy Catholic alums, Nice Chicago neighborhood. It will be interesting how they fare in the A10. Chicago is a bad college basketball town.
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 16, 2022, 06:48:36 AM
Loyola does have its advantages - decent academics, lots of wealthy Catholic alums, Nice Chicago neighborhood. It will be interesting how they fare in the A10. Chicago is a bad college basketball town.
I still don't get why Loyola left the Valley for the A-10. The A-10 is a whopping one slot higher than the Valley by various measurements but did get two teams in the tournament. If the A-10 thinks Loyola will help them get more bids, think again. Loyola is losing a BUNCH of guys who played together for four years. They will not be as good next year. So then they probably aren't getting more money from the tournament but will incur substantially higher travel cost.
And if they think playing at the ARC was bad, wait till they see Fordham's gym. Capacity 3200. Their final home game against GW drew 1387. Several of their home games drew hundreds of fans.
And their travel expenses immediately go through the roof. Brady had to return to the NFL because of the high gas prices.
But Loyola has a lot more old Chicago wealth available.
I remember making an effort to listen to the senior speeches. I couldn't tell who the seniors are now. And it's very rare that the seniors were at VU for all 4 years. A lot of that is the way the NCAA is right now. A lot of that is the way valpo is right now
Not even remotely directly related to the MVC but strap in because this is a seismic shift that could have a profound effect on A LOT of conferences. I think the MVC will be largely safe and unaffected except that it will be even harder to grab those last few bids unless the tournament expands. Even then, with a bunch of quality programs coalescing around each other in more prestigious homes it will still be a lot harder. Hopefully there are moves we can make to stay relevant in this chase. Maybe Wichita State and Loyola are forced to come back based on what the other leagues do. Maybe we can get South Dakota State and at least one other really good program. The MVC will remain a strong league but will it matter in the chase for at large bids? We'll see.
https://twitter.com/wilnerhotline/status/1542559346453729281?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1542559346453729281%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsnbbs.com%2Fthread-949912.html
https://twitter.com/RossDellenger/status/1542562446535282689
https://twitter.com/RossDellenger/status/1542578600012120064?cxt=HHwWgIC8vYrEq-gqAAAA
https://twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1542583902182703105?cxt=HHwWgoCw3dr4regqAAAA
The plot thickens... More PAC 12 schools to the Big 10? Notre Dame? (Probably not ND yet but I had a feeling there would be more than just these two added from the PAC...
https://twitter.com/wilnerhotline/status/1542597968296964096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1542597968296964096%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsnbbs.com%2Fthread-949912-page-10.html
Also here's this:
https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1542599158057406465?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1542599158057406465%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsnbbs.com%2Fthread-949912-page-10.html
"Super Conferences" probably aren't good for the sport at large and seems to suggest a D1 breakup is becoming inevitable which is something ND's AD discusses here:
https://www.si.com/college/2022/04/23/notre-dame-jack-swarbrick-division-1-change#:~:text=SOUTH%20BEND%2C%20Ind.%20%E2%80%94%20Notre%20Dame%20athletic%20director,date%20on%20that%20seismic%20change%20as%20the%20mid-2030s.
For the sake of the MVC I hope the last two pieces of this aren't true. Arizona ASU Colorado and Utah to the Big XII would be very bad for the MVC because it would mean that the Big XII is not poaching from the AAC anymore which would probably keep the Shockers right where they are in addition to strengthening big time an already tough conference in the Big XII leading to more bids for them. I don't want a D1 breakup but I suppose the silver lining of that would be that the MVC could become one of the premier leagues in the second level and compete for championships which would be very exciting.
Two thoughts:
1. If there is a D1 breakup, with the major conference teams going to their own national association with their own tournament, it will be very bad for the teams in the remaining conferences. Coverage (and thus dollars) associated with the tournament for the remaining teams will be similar to coverage for the NIT or worse.
2. I have said all along that a D1 breakup outside of football is extremely unlikely and I will continue to make that argument. There are about 360 teams in D1. If 80 leave to form their own association, the remaining 280 will band together and sue for anti-trust violations. If the new association loses those anti-trust cases, they'll either be forced to disband or will be forced to pay taxes–including for football. They get away with it, to some extent, in football because of the differences in physical size. That does not hold in any other sports and, even in football, they need agreements with the non-Power 5 conferences to avoid major legal action.
The irony in all of this conference realignment nonsense is that it will only serve to accelerate the diminishing fan interest in big time college football and basketball.
Paul
USC and UCLA had to make the move as Conference of Champions leadership was inept for the past decade and now these LA schools may have finally gotten their ducks in a row.
I can imagine what Bill Walton is thinking right now.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 01, 2022, 06:34:30 PM
USC and UCLA had to make the move as Conference of Champions leadership was inept for the past decade and now these LA schools may have finally gotten their ducks in a row.
I can imagine what Bill Walton is thinking right now.
I think they threw out the ducks and now have Gophers, Hawkeyes, Boilers, Wildcats, 'Huskers, Hoosiers, Illini and possibly some on the eastern side IN A ROW. Will they really make them travel to the east coast of the new Gigantic Coast to Coast 100 Conference?
1314 why would Wichita st staying in AAC be bad?
stay tuned, the realignment is far from over.
I'd be underselling this video if I didn't say it's greatest realignment analysis I've ever seen:
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on July 02, 2022, 02:15:03 PM1314 why would Wichita st staying in AAC be bad?
For the MVC specifically remaining viable as a potential multibid league in this new landscape adding a program like Wichita State back into the league would certainly help a lot. If the Big XII which is already the NET champion adds Arizona and other solid if unspectacular programs like Utah Colorado and ASU to further deepen the conference then it could be the end of that dream as we know it. I'm not even sure the A-10 or MWC (unless they can somehow get Gonzaga but I think they would be Big East bound in this scenario anyway) can be any more than a one bid league in this new climate. There are still so many ways this could go but none of them are good for the MVC fighting for at large bids. As much as I want South Dakota State as part of this conference for the quality of their program I don't even think that helps move the needle for us even though I think it would be wise for the MVC to take the Dakota schools regardless as they are state flagships with solid overall athletics programs even if they are in low population states. I think it would have to be offset by some private school additions to get everyone on board fortunately there are options in that regard as well in St Thomas (good market lots of potential) Bellarmine (good market solid performance so far in men's basketball would help out the MVC in any negotiations with Bally Sports Southeast as well) or Oral Roberts (if we can get past the obvious cultural issues there). It really is a shame that UDM is so small and doesn't or can't invest very well because if they could ever get their program rolling they would be a nice private school candidate.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 02, 2022, 06:37:45 PMstay tuned, the realignment is far from over.
I absolutely agree. The only question is whether the PAC will survive all of this.
I don't see it that way. The big 12 pillaging the PAC12 who knows maybe American, makes Wichita more likely to consider other options since the big 12 won't be picking up a non football school. If the BE wanted them it would have been done a long time ago... they don't, A-10 maybe. Outside that there are no other options.
Quote from: NotBryceDrew on July 05, 2022, 09:39:32 AMI don't see it that way. The big 12 pillaging the PAC12 who knows maybe American, makes Wichita more likely to consider other options since the big 12 won't be picking up a non football school. If the BE wanted them it would have been done a long time ago... they don't, A-10 maybe. Outside that there are no other options.
It all depends on the MWC. I believe Wichita State flirted with them in the past but the MWC wanted them to restart football in order to join. The Shockers declined and found an Olympics only deal in the AAC. If the Mountain West holds together they become a very strong contender for Wichita State but if SMU and Memphis especially stay in the AAC WSU may see enough reason to stay where they are. What Gonzaga does may figure into that position as well. I agree that the BE and A-10 aren't viable for WSU but the MWC and remaining in the AAC are depending on how this all shakes out. Apparently Colorado has called a meeting of its board of regents. It is said that nothing will be decided at this meeting but I have to think this will be discussed and some kind of a recommendation made to be ratified as a formal decision at another meeting soon. Feels like the CU Utah Arizona and ASU to the Big XII has a lot of steam. Another rumor has Fresno State reaching out to the PAC 12. Not sure how that will go but the PAC 12 might not be in a position to be picky about who it adds. On Brand name alone they could probably pick at will from the Mountain West especially if they aren't completely ripped down to the studs. A lot still depends on how aggressive the Big 10 wants to be and that will not be decided until we hear a formal decision from Notre Dame who it seems is committed to Independence right now at least for the time being. As I said there's too much to be decided at higher levels for us to know for sure the impact on the MVC and leagues like it or the best steps forward for the league in the new landscape but with even more basketball power condensing into even fewer leagues one can only see this as an outcome that leads to more bids for those conferences and more isolation between the power leagues and the upper tier mids even if the tournament potentially expands and a few conferences collapse in light of this.
From the Wall Street Journal, July 1, 2022:
"A century plus of tradition, and a basic understanding of United States geography, is flying out the window...Yes, there's a grain of DNA to the move - the Pac 12 is the historic rival to the Big Ten, and I've heard supporters say "It'll be like a Rose Bowl every week!" But there's a reason you don't have a Rose Bowl every week, and it's the same reason you don't eat friend Double Stuff Oreos for breakfast. Too much of a good idea is a bad idea, and the novelty will be tarnished within months."
Paul
There are several Big 10 and Conference of Champions (at least for now) teams that you should never associate with a Rose Bowl.
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 05, 2022, 03:04:07 PM
There are several Big 10 and Conference of Champions (at least for now) teams that you should never associate with a Rose Bowl.
I, for one, am looking forward to Fresno State against Rutgers in a future Rose Bowl.
Quote from: vu84v2 on July 05, 2022, 04:20:23 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on July 05, 2022, 03:04:07 PM
There are several Big 10 and Conference of Champions (at least for now) teams that you should never associate with a Rose Bowl.
I, for one, am looking forward to Fresno State against Rutgers in a future Rose Bowl.
I can hardly wait! Just the anticipation of such a future event is making me sleepless. ::)
There is a relatively new theme to the MVC Expansion thread on MVCFans: EU and Valpo to the Horizon. Lot of hostility about not carrying our weight and not updating our "gym" after promising it would get done.
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6021&sid=ded5104edd7cb9f9b
in reality it is true. Valpo has to eventually step up and quit nickel and diming to stay legit in the MVC.
Quote from: VULB#62 on October 24, 2023, 12:03:38 PM
There is a relatively new theme to the MVC Expansion thread on MVCFans: EU and Valpo to the Horizon. Lot of hostility about not carrying our weight and not updating our "gym" after promising it would get done.
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6021&sid=ded5104edd7cb9f9b
Valpo has been freeloading off of tournament shares earned by someone else in the MVC for 6 straight years. It's hands down embarrassing, especially for a program with our storied history. That said, 6 of the other 8 MVC programs in the league during the same 6 years have been consistent freeloaders themselves, including:
Southern Illinois - 16 year dry spell
Illinois State - 25 year dry spell
Indiana State - 12 year dry spell
Missouri State - 24 year dry spell
Northern Iowa - 7 year dry spell
Evansville - 23 year dry spell
Only Drake (2 appearances) and Bradley (1 appearance) have actually made money for the league in the past 6 years.
Moral of the story - Anyone who supports these 6 perennial boat anchors who wants to complain about Valpo can kiss my a$$.
In regards to the other schools hating the ARC and the promise of Coach Powell and the program he will create over time, as well as leveraging a quote from Ted Lasso:
They're really going to hate it when we (Valpo) start winning conference titles.
Agreed. It's the same elitism that the top Horizon League schools used to exhibit towards Valpo over the first few years, until we started kicking their a$$es on a routine basis. No one can complain about our contribution, when the majority of the conference hasn't helped