Before the Boiler Up game finished, Valpo is an 8-point favorite on Nolan, with a 68% probability of winning.
Will they be celebrating their Irish win?
They have two home wins, #276 Stony Brook and #315 IUPUI; Their losses are to Dayton, Oklahoma, Oregon and Bucknell all on the road and road wins over Indiana State and ND.
## Player gp-gs min avg fg-fga fg% 3fg-fga 3fg% ft-fta ft% off def tot avg pf dq a to blk stl pts avg
02 PERSONS, Tayler 9-9 257 28.6 57-107 . 5 3 3 7-20 . 3 5 0 25-31 . 8 0 6 3 25 28 3.1 26 0 39 30 2 10 146 16.2
14 MALLERS, Kyle 9-9 222 24.7 29-63 .460 13-37 .351 33-37 .892 18 25 43 4.8 23 1 7 17 6 5 104 11.6
25 TEAGUE, Tahjai 9-9 190 21.1 40-62 . 6 4 5 1-4 . 2 5 0 19-27 . 7 0 4 17 52 69 7.7 27 2 5 11 9 13 100 11.1
34 SELLERS, Sean 9-8 224 24.9 24-54 .444 16-45 .356 15-15 1.000 4 21 25 2.8 14 0 10 5 1 1 79 8.8
01 WALKER, Jontrell 9-4 208 23.1 25-56 . 4 4 6 13-30 . 4 3 3 15-17 . 8 8 2 2 8 10 1.1 15 0 20 14 2 6 78 8.7
24 MOSES, Trey 9-0 166 18.4 19-37 .514 0-0 .000 18-31 .581 15 36 51 5.7 17 0 7 12 6 4 56 6.2
15 GUNN, Zach 9-0 138 15.3 19-47 . 4 0 4 7-25 . 2 8 0 10-13 . 7 6 9 4 26 30 3.3 18 0 8 10 3 2 55 6.1
05 EL-AMIN, Ishmael 9-0 169 18.8 18-53 .340 6-22 .273 10-14 .714 2 19 21 2.3 10 0 20 13 0 5 52 5.8
00 KIAPWAY, Francis 8-6 163 20.4 10-37 . 2 7 0 10-34 . 2 9 4 7-9 . 7 7 8 2 7 9 1.1 12 0 3 8 1 2 37 4.6
22 TYLER, Jeremie 4-0 46 11.5 5-15 .333 4-10 .400 2-4 .500 1 3 4 1.0 8 1 1 2 0 2 16 4.0
03 THOMPSON, Josh 2-0 16 8.0 0-2 . 0 0 0 0-1 . 0 0 0 1-2 . 5 0 0 0 2 2 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.5
11 LEEDY, Tyler 1-0 1 1.0 0-0 .000 0-0 .000 0-0 .000 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Team 12 14 26 1
Total.......... 9 1800 246-533 .462 77-228 .338 155-200 .775 80 238 318 35.3 170 4 120 123 30 50 724 80.4
Opponents...... 9 1800 255-556 . 4 5 9 72-204 . 3 5 3 145-194 . 7 4 7 90 233 323 35.9 175 - 143 115 33 68 727 80.8
the story of the BSU win over the Irish
SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- The Ball State men's basketball team went into the Joyce Center and knocked off No. 8 Notre Dame, 80-77, Tuesday night for the program's first victory over a ranked opponent since 2001.
Junior point guard Tayler Persons scored 24 points and hit the game-winning 3-pointer in the final seconds as Ball State handed Notre Dame its first non-conference home loss in four years.
The Cardinals led the majority of the night until Notre Dame's Matt Farrell hit a 3-pointer to tie it at 77 with 21 seconds left. Ball State had a timeout left but did not call it. Persons kept the ball, went around a screen at the top of the key and buried the game-winner.
Ball State (5-4) defeated a ranked opponent for the first time since defeating No. 3 Kansas and No. 4 UCLA on back-to-back days at the 2001 Maui Invitational.
"I'm just so proud of our guys," Ball State head coach James Whitford said. "What a great win. We've come a long way. You think about where we started. To get to this point where we can beat a team like this on the road is amazing."
Tahjai Teague finished with 13 points and a game-high eight rebounds for Ball State, while Sean Sellers scored 11 points and pulled down seven big boards. Trey Moses scored nine points as the Cardinals went to him often down the stretch, while Kyle Mallers and Jeremie Tyler added eight each.
Ball State took a 34-29 lead into halftime after a Mallers jumper at the buzzer. The Cardinals held Notre Dame (7-2) to 37 percent shooting and just 2-for-10 from 3-point range over the opening 20 minutes.
BSU led despite not having a great offensive half itself, making only 39 percent, but the defense was what had the Cardinals on top.
"Defensively we were outstanding, and that's why we were in that position," Whitford said. "It's not a fluke thing. We could feel it. We could sense we had a chance to win this game."
Notre Dame came out hot in the second half, hitting its first six shots to take the lead, but the Cardinals stood their ground.
Ball State eventually built a lead as big as nine points in the second half at 67-58 with 6:45 to play. Notre Dame went on a 9-2 run to trim the lead to two, but Moses hit a pair of free throws and Sellers came up with a huge tip-in to push the lead to 73-67 with 3:02 left.
"Sean made all the gritty plays tonight, and I couldn't be prouder of him," Whitford said. "He did everything right for 40 minutes. He was unbelievable because of all the hustle plays. He was excellent defensively on Rex Pflueger. His growth in this game was incredible."
Notre Dame did not go away. The Irish still trailed 75-69 after Sellers found Moses for a lay-up inside of two minutes but stormed back with eight of the next 10 points to tie things on Farrell's 3-pointer before the Cardinals' late heroics.
Preseason All-American Bonzie Colson led Notre Dame with 26 points on 10-of-19 shooting, while Farrell finished with 14 points and eight assists.
Ball State will now return to Muncie for a six-game home stand starting Saturday with a 2 p.m. contest against Valparaiso on Toys for Tots Military & Public Safety Appreciation Day.
This will be game #10, we are 17-14 in the past 31 seasons in the 10th game of the year. we beat Missouri state last year, two years ago we beat Indiana State, 4 years ago, we went to Muncie and came out with a 69-50 win. The last time we lost the 10th game of the year when it was on the road was at Toledo in 2010.
I will be impressed with a bounce back win given the size of the loss to Purdue.
I don't know how much Purdue targeted Tevonn in its defense because TV only follow the ball. He definitely didn't get many open chances tonight. I would guess Ball State will do the same. Need to answer with a lot of Burton.
Valpo 74
Ball State 67
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 07, 2017, 07:54:25 PM
I will be impressed with a bounce back win given the size of the loss to Purdue.
I don't know how much Purdue targeted Tevonn in its defense because TV only follow the ball. He definitely didn't get many open chances tonight. I would guess Ball State will do the same. Need to answer with a lot of Burton.
The problem is both Walker and Burton are known to disappear at times and if they both do it and there isn't a surprise performance by Golder, Evelyn, Sorolla, Smits, Joseph, etc. then this team can end up with a near zero on offense. If it happens against Ball State then we lose by 10 or more.
Ball State is a gut check game. Does this team have an inherent toughness about it or are they going to run scared because they got their butts kicked? The answer to that can only be answered with the way they come out and play on Saturday.
The short turnaround doesn't give the players much time to think about the what ifs - just focus on Ball State. We play a much better game.
Valpo 79
Ball St 72
Trying to catch as many games in person this year as I can. Was at the Purdue game last night and will be at the Ball State game tomorrow. Anybody else making the trip to Muncie? This really becomes one of the most interesting games of the year IMO. Something that came out of the Purdue game was the lack of a vocal emotional leader, I hope that player shows up on Saturday.
I would love to see a bounce-back game, but I still think some of you are really short-selling BSU based on their past struggles and overall record. They are apparently two screwy calls away from being 7-2 (questionable call went against them in final seconds at Bucknell and as noted here earlier, an absolute officiating breakdown allowed Dayton an extra possession in the final seconds that ended up being a buzzer-beater for the Flyers). They had two bad losses on the road at Oklahoma and Oregon during a seven-day span where they played four games across four time zones. Their starting center, Trey Moses, is now healthy. They have 8 Indiana All-Stars on their roster.
In short, view their win at ND as a fluke at your peril. They are good -- damn good. This will be a major test, and a loss does not portend doom for the rest of the season.
The spread: Ball State -1.5
Quote from: wh on December 08, 2017, 03:51:32 PM
The spread: Ball State -1.5
I might have guessed Ball State by 3 or 4. But, that sounds pretty reasonable.
An important game, on the road, against a team that would compete (this year) in the Valley.
https://twitter.com/rgeneraljr/status/939271432495947776
Three pointers: What to watch between Ball State and Valparaiso
by Robby General / 5:23 p.m. Dec. 8, 2017
all State is heating up in the final stretch of its non-conference schedule, entering this weekend's matchup on a four-game win streak.
After starting 1-4, playing a road trip that spanned more than 8,000 miles, Ball State seems to be coming into form recently.
Ball State (5-4) most recently beat No. 9 Notre Dame off a last-second shot from Tayler Persons while Valparaiso (8-1) is looking to bounce back from a 30 point loss against No. 21 Purdue. Saturday's matchup marks the fifth straight and last in-state contest for Ball State this regular season.
"I feel like we've progressed well," head coach James Whitford said. "Valpo is a really good team and their style of play is very unique. To me, there's a lot of preparation for us to get ready for the game."
Valparaiso (87) is Ball State's fifth opponent ranked in the top 100, according to Ken Pomeroy rankings. Here are some of the keys to watch between Ball State and Valparaiso on Dec. 9:
1) Clash of styles
.........
2) Rebounding, rebounding, rebounding
..........
3) Keep rolling off team's leaders
..........
http://www.ballstatedaily.com/article/2017/12/sports-three-pointers-what-to-watch-between-ball-state-and-valopraiso
There is a lot of familiarity between these two in-state rivals that is typical. Parker's brother Brachen Hazen plays for BSU. Tayler Persons of BSU started out at Northern Kentucky of the Horizon League. His three point shooting has really helped BSU become an exceptional Indiana Div. 1 team. Derrik Smits' former teammate at Zionsville, Scott Leddy, is a freshman at BSU but so far has only seen 1 minute of game time. Ishmael El-Amin went to Hopkins HS in the Twin Cities which is where some may remember that Jared Nunes, former Valpo guard (2001) was an asst coach. Jared is in his 7th year with Scott Drew at Baylor where he is currently the director of player development. Tahjai Teague, an important part of BSU's team, of the famous Teague family (Jeff (Bulls/Pacers/T-wolves), Marquis (Nets/76ers/Mad Ants) and David (Purdue) from Indy Pike HS on the northwest side (near 71st & I-465/I-65). Yes, the Teagues were all Pike Red Devils.
I'll predict another loss.
Ball State by 5. Valpo hasn't proven anything other that they can beat second or third (perhaps lower) raters and got the snot kicked out of them by a legit program.
I really don't know how this game is going to go. Ball State obviously is at home and coming off that huge win. Valpo is on the road and coming off a brutal loss to Purdue. Maybe Ball State doesn't recover off that high and Valpo is playing with house money right now.
Both Pearson and Moses are very good players. I could see Golder and Pearson chirping at each other if they are guarding each other because they both have an edge about them that & won't back down. Moses is a shorter big at 6'8" but he is a great defensive player and is very active around the basket. We may have the size advantage in the post Moses has the experience.
Valpo is at +2 right now. Coming off that Purdue loss, this is the biggest game of the year and a chance for Valpo to prove themselves.
Watched the BSU v ND game working out this AM. I think this game comes down to
1) Rebounding. BSU won in part because of extra possessions. Neither team shot particularly well, but I think they had around 6-8 more FG attempts over ND
2) Letting Tayler Persons take his :censored: show of shots. He is a solid player, but that dude seems to play PG for BSU and takes some terrible early clock shots.
BSU = rebounds and three pointers.
We aren't going to stop their 3 pt attempts, but we can rebound their long misses.
That being said, I'm pleading for a Win. Valpo 76 BSU 74.
We're lacking experience and our confidence was shaken if not destroyed at Purdue. We're playing a comparable if not superior team on the road. BSU by 16. Hopefully we'll be more than a .500 team by the time we play at Bradley to start 2018.
Call me a pessimist, but I think we are in for a loss that isn't really ever close.
Valpo wins ugly, 64-59.
Is this El-Amin related to the former NBA El-Amin?
Not good.
https://twitter.com/ValpoBasketball/status/939555761348366338
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/939555983122223105
Starting Lineup Prediction:
PG: Bakari Evelyn
SG: Max Joseph (I would play Golder)
SF: Joe Burton
PF: Parker Hazen (I might give Mileek a shot at the starting lineup but maybe Coach thinks he pairs well with the second unit)
C: Jay Sorolla
Without Tevonn we will really see what this team is made of.
Could be a blessing in disguise if Golder and Burton can carry the team and gain some confidence. But I have a hard time seeing Valpo score north of 55 points.
https://twitter.com/ValpoBasketball/status/939560586345697281
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/939562509824118784
let's see... last year we played at Kentucky, got pasted... and enroute to Springfield, lost one of our stud players.... and we beat MoSt. Sound familiar?
and Golder is getting the start.
I hope the money Big Rik donates makes all these mental mistakes worth it.
Derrik is really starting to annoy me.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 09, 2017, 01:25:46 PM
Derrik is really starting to annoy me.
2nd that 1,000%.
Hope the officiating evens out in second half, because that was garbage. Joseph fouled on the drive with 1:10 left, then gets called for a touch foul on the other end. We also had about 6 points wiped out from questionable offensive fouls.
I have so many thoughts about this team right now... I'll just say: turnovers & mental errors are literally driving me nuts right now.
Bakari can make some special things happen on the court but he is turning the ball over WAY too much. It's not just him. It's the team. The half-court offense quite frankly looks like garbage today (its been tough all year). I don't expect us to be a well oil machine like last years team but I expect ball security and at least a bit more creativity. Does the coaching staff not trust these player yet?
Great defense (a few defensive lapses) and rebounding.
Offensive execution has generally been awful....but the effort and defense have been good. Not sure that can sustain for another half, but I hope that it does.
Need to keep going to Burton. Good rebounding.
What is the deal with Smits catching a ball he could nearly step and dunk. But he puts it on the floor and blows the layup.
The timing of the offense just isn't there. Lots of fits and spurts. You see some real spurts of great passes so the talent is there. Just zero consistency!
Hazen is killing this starting lineup.
How does BSU's Walker get that far open for that 3 ?? !!!
Just too many unforced errors like Hazen's.
We can see which team made better adjustments at halftime.
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 09, 2017, 02:12:51 PM
Just too many unforced errors like Hazen's.
I think the struggles are becoming mental. His jumper doesn't look good so he's trying to force it to the basket. He's in his own head right now. The struggles are real.
Time to bench Hazen, completely. I really can't understand why Matt continues to start him. It's not just that he hasn't had a good game. I can't recall him having a good moment -- although I'm sure there's been one. Not even close to ready. Start McMillan or really anyone else. Please.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 09, 2017, 02:19:25 PM
Time to bench Hazen, completely. I really can't understand why Matt continues to start him. It's not just that he hasn't had a good game. I can't recall him having a good moment -- although I'm sure there's been one. Not even close to ready. Start McMillan or really anyone else. Please.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on December 09, 2017, 02:16:43 PM
We can see which team made better adjustments at halftime.
They went at Hazen about 6 times to start the 2nd half. He looks lost on defense, and obviously he doesn't contribute on offense.
Valpo needs to stay in the zone until they solve it.
As an aside, Worthen is a really cool place to catch a game.
Young team is getting old to say, but it needs to be said. But, how can we pass this poorly? It really looks like lazy passing to my unskilled eyes.
This is one of Smits' best halves.
Have to make free throws at the end.
Hazen and Smits were lost in the first half, but Smits picked it up in the second. I don't know what Lottich was thinking with that 1-3-1, but that killed us for their 12-0 run, as someone was always wide open under the hoop. I don't know if it was because we didn't know how to play in that defense, or if they just knew how to beat it, but we stayed in it way too long. Why in the world was Burton not up on their shooter on that last shot? If he drives, the worst you get is a tie game. That was just dumb. This is not a good loss. I don't care that Ball State just beat ND.
Just ugly. We had so many chances to win that game. The ridiculous turnovers are getting old.
We don't look anything like a top 100 team.
How do you give the same guy that hit the game winner against ND a three foot cushion on that shot?
Anyone else getting a bit annoyed by this isolation that coach is letting Bakari do? Have we made any % on those dribble iso's? I mean what the heck, it sure takes the other 4 players out of the game.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on December 09, 2017, 03:01:24 PM
How do you give the same guy that hit the game winner against ND a three foot cushion on that shot?
That was my thought. Could see it coming a mile away, but the refs would have bailed him out with a foul if Burton got too close.
Valpo led every stat except turnovers. Valpo had 18 to Ball State's 11. Ball State got 7 more shots in the game and scored 7 more points off turnovers. That is giving away the game!
This one stings.
I don't understand why Parker continues to start. I've run out of patience waiting for him to produce. We need him to produce and he hasn't. I think Mileek is better suited to start.
You could tell that Kiser needed to hit both of those, but you can't blame him for missing one. It just amazes me that we gave their only good 3-pt shooter enough room to get a shot. As soon as he shot and you saw that Burton did not get in his face enough, you could feel it going in.
Lottich will learn some things from this...
1) you don't have to start the second half with the same guys you started the first half
2) don't start players that aren't producing
3) don't run clock with 4 minutes left
4) tell your team to guard the 3 at all costs up 2
Did I just hear Luke Gore say that Tevonn has mono? That is worse then the flu.
Quote from: VU2014 on December 09, 2017, 03:12:11 PM
Did I just hear Luke Gore say that Tevonn has mono? That is worse then the flu.
If its mono Tevonn may be done for a month.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 09, 2017, 03:03:28 PM
Anyone else getting a bit annoyed by this isolation that coach is letting Bakari do? Have we made any % on those dribble iso's? I mean what the heck, it sure takes the other 4 players out of the game.
Yes the offense is horrible and Matt better change something quickly because it made us look like a joke on national television against Purdue and cost us a huge game today. Way too many turnovers. My confidence is very little in Matt actually doing something to change it because it has been like this since game one and nothing has improved at all. I know this team has a lot of potential, but I expect to see change and improvement throughout the year, and I am seeing nothing but regression into more and more turnovers every game. This team still excites me and it is going to take some time, but jesus this one hurt a lot and could have easily been prevented. I expect to see some improvement sometime soon or we are going to waste a golden opportunity to improve this extremely talented team.
If TW has mono his a&@ wouldn't be anywhere near the rest of the team, let alone on the bench.
Edit: So naturally that's what it apparently is.
Also, did we still have a timeout left on that last play? I thought that we did. If so, why didn't we throw a quick pass to get a half-court side inbounds play, which has a higher chance of success than a running shot?
before the final was posted, VU RPI was 52 and SOS was 190... immediately after, the RPI was 74 and the SOS was 192 ! {although on some sites, the SOS recalculates overnight)
Didn't get a chance to watch the game, but it appears it was a very winnable game even without our best player. From my experience, if Walker has Mono he will not only be out for a while, but it will effect his stamina for the remainder of the season. Or perhaps he has had it for a while (thus the reason he has only been playing 25 minutes per game) and they just thought he needed the rest before he dipped too far into the well, so to speak.
I am not sure what we are going to do about the 4. A few posters say it is McMillan's time to start, but he has a tendency to foul out of games playing less than 10 minutes. The fact is it does not appear that any of the 3 newcomers at the 4 spot are ready to play consistent minutes yet.
We either go small for the rest of the year or we keep playing Hazen, McMillan, and Linsenn as much as possible in the hopes that they are eventually able to contribute. Obviously, coach has decided to go with the later.
I wouldn't get too worked up about this one, we obviously would have won with Walker in the lineup. A one point loss to a solid team on the road without your leader is not the end of the world.
I only watched the second half. What was the reason Jay played only 9 minutes? It looked like our strong run started when Smits made his second half return. Did I miss something or does anybody have any observational comments?
We have finally watched enough 2017 VU basketball that we can recognize every players strengths and limitations. All of our guys have some weaknesses but that should not come as a surprise. Winning from here out will be the artwork of balancing these plusses and minuses for the situational advantages that decide the course of the games and the season.
Overall I still like our chances, and if Tevonn might be out for a while I will look forward to Bradford, Golder and Kiser getting the additional opportunity to develop their games.
Quote from: valpopal on December 09, 2017, 03:04:38 PM
Valpo led every stat except turnovers. Valpo had 18 to Ball State's 11. Ball State got 7 more shots in the game and scored 7 more points off turnovers. That is giving away the game!
Thank you. Nothing else matters unless we get this fixed.
Quote from: valpolaw on December 09, 2017, 03:05:40 PM
I don't understand why Parker continues to start. I've run out of patience waiting for him to produce. We need him to produce and he hasn't. I think Mileek is better suited to start.
Ditto. Even on subsequent shifts he manages to be a non-factor. McMillan needs to take that slot IMO. He is an inch taller and 10# heavier. He has shown a pretty good 3.
As of 12/9/17:
Mileek 102 Minutes -- 3.7 ppg --- 46.6 FG% --- 4/8 3FG ---4 blocks
Parker 133 Minutes --- 1.6 ppg --- 29.4 FG% --- 0/5 3FG --- 1 blocks
AND.... Somehow Marcus needs to be on the floor more (also IMO).
But I understand that all of these OOC games are intended for experimentation (and with virtually a new roster, experiment is pretty accurate) so when the MVC schedule begins, the true rotation will be in place. Us Monday morning QBs have to let Matt do this his way. In the first 8 games, he freely changed pieces. In this three (PU, BSU, NU), he is learning how his players are reacting to the "real world." I suggest that out of the west coast trip we will see his adjustments and a refining/reduction of the rotation to a core of maybe 8 or maybe 9.
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 06:15:03 PM
Quote from: valpolaw on December 09, 2017, 03:05:40 PM
I don't understand why Parker continues to start. I've run out of patience waiting for him to produce. We need him to produce and he hasn't. I think Mileek is better suited to start.
Ditto. Even on subsequent shifts he is manages to be a non-factor. McMillan needs to take that slot IMO. He is an inch taller and 10# heavier. He has shown a pretty good 3.
As of 12/9/17:
Mileek 102 Minutes -- 3.7 ppg --- 46.6 FG% --- 4/8 3FG ---4 blocks
Parker 133 Minutes --- 1.6 ppg --- 29.4 FG% --- 0/5 3FG --- 1 blocks
AND.... Somehow Marcus needs to be on the floor more (also IMO).
Why are we obsessed with STARTERS? It's MINUTES that I care about now that the season has started.
Starting is prestige, minutes are where it's at. When we start the season STARTERS are what we talk about, but at this point minutes are mostly what matters.
Scenario #1: Parker loses starting position and loses even more confidence. Or maybe even gets it in his head to transfer. As I see it those are the downsides, acceptable or not.
Option #2: Now let's look at McMillan, who was lucky to get a D1 scholarship from what I could gather. Bring him off the bench and continue to split minutes 50/50 or there abouts. Start him and you get energy out of the gate, I don't think energy is missing from Parker. So what's the value to supplanting Hazen at this juncture?
Scoring at the PF position is the 5th option whether it's Hazen or McMillan or Linssen.
So I repeat, why does supplanting Hazen mean a darn thing? Let's hurry up and crush a hard working Parker to improve our 5th scoring option the first 5-minutes of the game......YEAH! That makes total sense.
Either way Go VU!
My point is that the first 7-8 need to contribute regardless if they start or come off the bench. And Parker is not doing it in either role. Parker seems to just not be ready, so he is being placed in a no-win position. He has been put under heavy pressure. Back off. Let the kid adjust and develop. His confidence right now is in the toilet. He is overthinking, pushing and that causes him to be a step slow both on O and D.
Who is starting matters tremendously especially when Matt starts the same line up in the second half. The starters set the tone for the whole game and also the start of the second half. For example, at Purdue I recall someone saying the momentum seemed to change when Hazen had that TO when he stumbled while driving early in the game. That's one example of why it matters.
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 07:38:07 PM
My point is that the first 7-8 need to contribute regardless if they start or come off the bench. And Parker is not doing either. Parker seems to just not be ready and he is being placed in a no-win position. He has been placed under heavy pressure. Back off. Let the kid adjust and develop. His confidence right now is in the toilet. He is overthinking, pushing and that causes him to be a step slow both on O and D.
My concern is mostly with valpolaws statement. I'm sure he is just frustrated, which I was today as well.
Something else I didn't communicate, I believe we shouldn't start our 5 best players at all times. Having an effective 6th and 7th man is as important or more so.
I can get behind minutes for the best performing 7/8 players. Early on, Parker seems to be pressing too hard on Offense as you stated.
My top concern is that only coach knows Parker's mindset. We aren't losing because McMillan isn't starting. We are losing (in part) because PG, SF and Centers are handling the ball like idiots.
P.S. I liked seeing Golder going to the hoop today. His aggression teamed with Burton's was most welcoming!!!
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 09, 2017, 07:21:39 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 06:15:03 PM
Quote from: valpolaw on December 09, 2017, 03:05:40 PM
I don't understand why Parker continues to start. I've run out of patience waiting for him to produce. We need him to produce and he hasn't. I think Mileek is better suited to start.
Ditto. Even on subsequent shifts he is manages to be a non-factor. McMillan needs to take that slot IMO. He is an inch taller and 10# heavier. He has shown a pretty good 3.
As of 12/9/17:
Mileek 102 Minutes -- 3.7 ppg --- 46.6 FG% --- 4/8 3FG ---4 blocks
Parker 133 Minutes --- 1.6 ppg --- 29.4 FG% --- 0/5 3FG --- 1 blocks
AND.... Somehow Marcus needs to be on the floor more (also IMO).
Why are we obsessed with STARTERS? It's MINUTES that I care about now that the season has started.
Starting is prestige, minutes are where it's at. When we start the season STARTERS are what we talk about, but at this point minutes are mostly what matters.
Scenario #1: Parker loses starting position and loses even more confidence. Or maybe even gets it in his head to transfer. As I see it those are the downsides, acceptable or not.
Option #2: Now let's look at McMillan, who was lucky to get a D1 scholarship from what I could gather. Bring him off the bench and continue to split minutes 50/50 or there abouts. Start him and you get energy out of the gate, I don't think energy is missing from Parker. So what's the value to supplanting Hazen at this juncture?
Scoring at the PF position is the 5th option whether it's Hazen or McMillan or Linssen.
So I repeat, why does supplanting Hazen mean a darn thing? Let's hurry up and crush a hard working Parker to improve our 5th scoring option the first 5-minutes of the game......YEAH! That makes total sense.
Either way Go VU!
I'm more peeved he started the 2nd half than the game itself. He was abysmal on defense to start the half. Without Ball State's run, I'm not sure they win. He clearly isn't gaining confidence playing along side Bakari, Walker, and Burton, who are the top options on offense. Maybe he'd be more confident off the bench where he can run a bit more with Golder, and Bradford. But right now we're terrible when he's in the lineup.
Parker is a freshman. Why not develop an off the bench role for him based on his primary strengths (whatever they might be) and then let him grow into a more well-rounded contributor as he gains experience and maturity? I think he has been rushed for some reason.
Oh, and if the reason is a fear of him transferring, then both he and Valpo made the wrong decisions.
Quote from: valpolaw on December 09, 2017, 07:42:35 PM
Who is starting matters tremendously especially when Matt starts the same line up in the second half. The starters set the tone for the whole game and also the start of the second half. For example, at Purdue I recall someone saying the momentum seemed to change when Hazen had that TO when he stumbled while driving early in the game. That's one example of why it matters.
There's only (1) ball valpolaw... I see where you are coming from to a degree.
But I'm willing to use (1) ball and share it with (4) teammates on offense to start the first and second half. Then sub in and out the hot hand.
I want our PF, if always the 5th option anyways, to make his presence felt on defense for now.
I like McMillan coming off the bench and giving us a fresh defender and a little more offensive threat from the 6/7/8th man spot.
Neither of us are wrong, just how we feel.
Quote from: valpotx on December 09, 2017, 11:30:05 AM
Is this El-Amin related to the former NBA El-Amin?
Yes.....Came from some HS in Minnesota.
Matt confirms it is mono.
Talk of a red shirt for 24 year old Tevonn.
The adversity this program has experienced in the last two years is crazy.
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 08:46:46 PM
Matt confirms it is mono.
Talk of a red shirt for 24 year old Tevonn.
The adversity this program has experienced in the last two years is crazy.
Is the talk just from Paul Oren throwing out a concept or are the coaches mentioning this?
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 09, 2017, 08:51:16 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 08:46:46 PM
Matt confirms it is mono.
Talk of a red shirt for 24 year old Tevonn.
The adversity this program has experienced in the last two years is crazy.
Is the talk just from Paul Oren throwing out a concept or are the coaches mentioning this?
Fact. Go to Oren's twitter. I would have pasted it but couldn't.
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 08:55:12 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 09, 2017, 08:51:16 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 08:46:46 PM
Matt confirms it is mono.
Talk of a red shirt for 24 year old Tevonn.
The adversity this program has experienced in the last two years is crazy.
Is the talk just from Paul Oren throwing out a concept or are the coaches mentioning this?
Fact. Go to Oren's twitter. I would have pasted it but couldn't.
It's just talk from PO at the moment.
Clearly, we need another option at the 4. I would like to see Linssen get some minutes there and see what he can do. He is more D-1 ready at this stage than Parker and Mileek. He is more poised, more aggressive and makes good things happen nearly every time he gets in the game. Plus, he will never be satisfied playing third fiddle at the 5 behind J and Derrik for 3 of his 4 years.
I will admit that I don't understand the finer points of the game, but is it possible that to some degree the number of turnovers this team commits is related to the number of passes? What I mean to point out is that we don't have an offensive threat (especially without Tevonn) like we did with Alec Peters. Someone who creates a play right off of a pass. Seems like everyone is waiting for someone else to create a play and therefore passes the ball off, resulting in a greater likelihood of a turnover. Is there such thing as a pass to turnover ratio?
Tevonn shouldn't redshirt. He will play professionally, and if he is 24, he needs to get his pro career started.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 09, 2017, 09:12:11 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 08:55:12 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 09, 2017, 08:51:16 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 08:46:46 PM
Matt confirms it is mono.
Talk of a red shirt for 24 year old Tevonn.
The adversity this program has experienced in the last two years is crazy.
Is the talk just from Paul Oren throwing out a concept or are the coaches mentioning this?
Fact. Go to Oren's twitter. I would have pasted it but couldn't.
It's just talk from PO at the moment.
Knowing Paul and his lack journalistic integrity ::) this is obviously fake news and Oz is complicit. C'mon, man.
[tweet]939614426910658560[/tweet]
[tweet]939615548333322241[/tweet]
[tweet]939615204115144704[/tweet]
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 09, 2017, 09:12:11 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 08:55:12 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 09, 2017, 08:51:16 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 09, 2017, 08:46:46 PM
Matt confirms it is mono.
Talk of a red shirt for 24 year old Tevonn.
The adversity this program has experienced in the last two years is crazy.
Is the talk just from Paul Oren throwing out a concept or are the coaches mentioning this?
Fact. Go to Oren's twitter. I would have pasted it but couldn't.
It's just talk from PO at the moment.
Oren was speculating, and so am I. Oren wrote that the odds were against Tevonn redshirting, and I agree right now. However, if the doctors diagnose him with a condition that would require two to three months before coming back at anywhere near full strength, then I would be in favor of the move. In that scenario, Tevonn will not be much help to the team in the majority of conference play, and only might be ready to play effectively by tournament time.
But if he redshirts, he comes back at full strength next year with a seasoned team that only loses Max Joseph to graduation and replaces him with Freeman-Liberty. Tevonn becomes the player who fills the final scholarship being held, and you're not going to find a better candidate. I believe Valpo becomes the favorite to win the Missouri Valley. Finally, Tevonn increases his future financial situation and chances of playing professionally on a good team if he has a great final season.
Importantly, this is 100% speculation since the decision would depend upon analysis by medical doctors, and I don't even play one on television. Hopefully, on the other hand Tevonn's health improves quickly and he comes back strong in time for conference play this season.
According to Paul, Tevonn has played in 29% of this year's games. To redshirt you must play in less than 30%. He's right at the tipping point. Paul's string on Twitter is pretty long (so I didn't paste it). Go to it for his speculation.
Oh, then you have to apply to the NCAA. We know how that works >:(
Suppose Tevonn redshirts. He may also have his degree in 4 years, and ... yep off to a Power conference school for his last year. Sorry, but ...
Quote from: Frozenbaugh on December 09, 2017, 08:19:25 PM
Quote from: valpotx on December 09, 2017, 11:30:05 AM
Is this El-Amin related to the former NBA El-Amin?
Yes.....Came from some HS in Minnesota.
Minnetonka Hopkins in the Twin Cities area. That is the same HS that Jared Nunes was an asst coach.
I sense another Jubril cluster fxxx in Valpo's future:
The compliance office files a "mono" hardship waiver request. Weeks turn into months waiting for a decision from the NCAA. Finally sometime in May we hear back - denied! Sometime after the fact, we learn that Tevonn was well enough to play the last 6 games of the regular season and the Tournament, but the Valpo braintrust decided to stay the course on the waiver thing because the university's ever capable compliance office told ml that getting a waiver approved should be a slam dunk.
The end result - Valpo loses in the 1st round of the tournament and Tevonn's final year and hopes for the future are destroyed. Oh, and in an unrelated but related matter, we learn after the fact that we Maintained our tradition of the past 2 seasons of not practicing on the tournament court prior to scoring 13 points in the first half of our tourney loss because we were offended by the time we were given. Last, but not least, we later learn that we lost a home run recruit we could have had because we were holding the last 2018 scholarship open for Tevonn.
Quote from: valpopal on December 09, 2017, 10:28:01 PMonly loses Max Joseph to graduation and replaces him with Freeman-Liberty.
... and Ryan Fazekas...
Quote from: bbtds on December 10, 2017, 07:30:56 AM
Quote from: Frozenbaugh on December 09, 2017, 08:19:25 PM
Quote from: valpotx on December 09, 2017, 11:30:05 AM
Is this El-Amin related to the former NBA El-Amin?
Yes.....Came from some HS in Minnesota.
Minnetonka Hopkins in the Twin Cities area. That is the same HS that Jared Nunes was an asst coach.
Wrong on a couple of points. El Amin went to North High School and graduated the same year as Jared Nuness who played at Minnetonka and was the Star-Tribune Player of the Year.
Quote from: VUSL98 on December 09, 2017, 10:08:37 PM
I will admit that I don't understand the finer points of the game, but is it possible that to some degree the number of turnovers this team commits is related to the number of passes? What I mean to point out is that we don't have an offensive threat (especially without Tevonn) like we did with Alec Peters. Someone who creates a play right off of a pass. Seems like everyone is waiting for someone else to create a play and therefore passes the ball off, resulting in a greater likelihood of a turnover. Is there such thing as a pass to turnover ratio?
[/b]
A fair point. Clearly it was Tevonn's team both from a talent standpoint and Senior standpoint. Paul Oren has wondered why Joe Burton hasn't been the number one option and I think you hit on the reason. Joe and Bakari et al, were deferring to Tevonn. I think that will clarify itself as we move along without Tevonn. We have seen Joe and Bakari take on the scoring roll on the last two games and I would expect those two together with our guys at the 5 to pick up the scoring as well. Burton has scored 36 over the last 2 games and our 5's have scored 22 in those games. Bakari had 14 against Ball State.
I couldn't imagine having mono and trying to compete in D1 basketball. His energy level is going to be impacted even when he returns. I've also known people that have lost around 10-15 pounds when having mono due to not eating with the sore throat. Not a good situation and the timing couldn't be worse.
Quote from: vu72 on December 10, 2017, 08:42:46 AMClearly it was Tevonn's team both from a talent standpoint and Senior standpoint.
The whole season just made a 180 degree pivot. We will be back to a total rebuild mentality. RPI, and MVC records will now have very little meaning. It is all preparation for St Louis in 2018 and for the following 18-19 season.
Can we still win half of our conference games without Tevonn? I would say yes but it is a close call.
Plenty of time and opportunity to watch our freshmen develop as the pressure on them has now lessened. We no longer need instant success.
Golder must step up big. Suddenly he will be asked to play , think and behave like a mature veteran. That is a big leap.
My opinion as a n SIU fan:
Wins: two ys Drake, Two vs Indiana state, Split Loyola (1), Two Evansville, split Il state (1), split with Bradley (1 but I think could be two)=nine wins--I won't speculate on my own team SIU. MSU or UNI but say you split with two that's 10-8 which would put you out of the thursday play-in games. It will be hard to win one at UNI but I could see you guys taking one from MSU (we beat them home and away last year) or us if we can't get Bol back
Tevonn redshirting is less likely than Green Bay winning the Super Bowl this year. Take that for what its worth.
Quote from: Pgmado on December 10, 2017, 10:01:03 PM
Tevonn redshirting is less likely than Green Bay winning the Super Bowl this year. Take that for what its worth.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/625b3f1566f178f7e572fc25b99df9af/tenor.gif)
Quote from: VU2014 on December 10, 2017, 11:17:57 PMQuote from: Pgmado on December 10, 2017, 10:01:03 PMTevonn redshirting is less likely than Green Bay winning the Super Bowl this year. Take that for what its worth.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/625b3f1566f178f7e572fc25b99df9af/tenor.gif)
Well, in real life Jim carrey marries the girl Lauren Holly. So there is a chance. lol.
Quote from: a3uge on December 09, 2017, 03:10:06 PM
Lottich will learn some things from this...
1) you don't have to start the second half with the same guys you started the first half
2) don't start players that aren't producing
3) don't run clock with 4 minutes left
4) tell your team to guard the 3 at all costs up 2
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one questioning Lottich. The offense just looks stagnant/easy to guard too often. Combine that with not being a sub par 3 point shooting team, it's a combo that can lead to lulls/sloppy play (131 assists to 150 turnovers this season). By this time of the year, you need to have mixed in more "stuff" because scouting has become very advanced. And this is just for non conference opponents, it will only get harder come MVC play.
For the record, I love the energy and recruiting Lottich brings to Valpo. But I'm not sold with the on court portion yet. One thing that will always stick out to me was last season at home against Oakland we came out of a timeout and Shane dribbled it up and went off a little false ball screen action with Alec and shot/missed a 3 without a single pass. Ever since then I've had slivers of doubt enter my mind.
I don't mean to be super critical. Head coaching is hard. Especially the year after losing a player like Alec. We are a good defensive/rebounding team, good in transition. I just want to see more out of this roster in the half court offensively, they have the ability.
Quote from: Pgmado on December 10, 2017, 10:01:03 PM
Tevonn redshirting is less likely than Green Bay winning the Super Bowl this year. Take that for what its worth.
This is a significant uptick in likelihood, compared to Saturday:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/939650054213730305
Teamrankings has the odds of Green Bay winning the Super Bowl at 0.2%. With Aaron Rodgers coming back next week, I'd think these odds are increasing.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/projections/standings/
Rogers will return If he passes his bone density test. We here in Wisconsin hope he studies really, really hard for that one ;D
QuoteLottich will learn some things from this...
1) you don't have to start the second half with the same guys you started the first half
2) don't start players that aren't producing
3) don't run clock with 4 minutes left
4) tell your team to guard the 3 at all costs up 2
1. agreed. I'd love to pick his brain and ton of things. Overall we need to realize we lost on the final possession on the road against a strong Ball State team without our best player.
2. I'm assuming that is aimed at Parker. My guess is that Coach doesn't want to crush his confidence (he did the same thing with Bradford last season). But to be fair to coach, what do you want him to do. The only other option is Mileek is also very green and almost always gets himself in foul trouble. Yes Mileek has shown he can produce more but let's not act like he's the massive upgrade at this point in his college career. There are flaws in his game too. Maybe he thinks Mileek pairs better with different guys. The coaches know this team then we do.
3. I'm not sure what was going on during the finals minutes of the game. We couldn't execute the half-court when we needed to. This team is clearly still a work in progress.
4. Sometimes you just need to give a guy credit for nailing a shot. Valpo is actually a very good team at defending the 3. Clearly that Persons 3 was a moment where Tevonn would have been very useful to have health & on the court. In hind sight they may have wanted to force that final shot on someone else and I don't know why Joe (not a great defender got switched on Persons). I have to go back and watch but was Max on the court for that final shot? If so he'd be the ideal guy playing man-to-man with Persons for the final shot.
QuoteI'm glad to see I'm not the only one questioning Lottich. The offense just looks stagnant/easy to guard too often. Combine that with not being a sub par 3 point shooting team, it's a combo that can lead to lulls/sloppy play (131 assists to 150 turnovers this season). By this time of the year, you need to have mixed in more "stuff" because scouting has become very advanced. And this is just for non conference opponents, it will only get harder come MVC play.
For the record, I love the energy and recruiting Lottich brings to Valpo. But I'm not sold with the on court portion yet. One thing that will always stick out to me was last season at home against Oakland we came out of a timeout and Shane dribbled it up and went off a little false ball screen action with Alec and shot/missed a 3 without a single pass. Ever since then I've had slivers of doubt enter my mind.
I don't mean to be super critical. Head coaching is hard. Especially the year after losing a player like Alec. We are a good defensive/rebounding team, good in transition. I just want to see more out of this roster in the half court offensively, they have the ability.
100% agree the half-court looks bad. The ball movement hasn't been great. I'm not sure if that's a personnel issue (we are just plain and simple a BAD 3 point shooting team with only a few good shooters) or an issue of being so young and not having experienced team that has played together. I tend to think its the ladder. Last year we were a good half-court team but that team was also stacked with veterans.
If we don't get our act together with the half-court offense its going to be a long year because the MVC is a VERY good defensive league with teams that can clamp down the defense on you and force teams into bad shots. We need to get better by the end of the season.
I'm willing to stay patient with this team. Like Coach Lottich said, "This team will better by the end the season." I think that 8-0 start got to our heads (mine included) and our expectations got loftier then they were coming into the season and now we'll be without Tevonn for an extended period of time so its time for us to re-adjust.
We need to realize that this is an entirely new team, especially w/o Walker, with VERY little experience. One year practicing with the team does not make the 3 new guys ready for action. I think we all need to relax and go with the flow as this team gets an ID of its own and the newcomers get used to real game action with fellow team members. Lets face it, we need a consistent scorer like AP but until one surfaces, this year or next, we will have to deal with the hand we have been dealt. Taking care of the ball and a lack of a consistent scorer have been our biggest problem. Let hope things improve as the season progresses. I think the 8-0 start was a bit misleading and perhaps we expected more success based on the start. I think things will improve and hopefully with T. back in the rotation. Remember we were projected to finish in the middle of the pack in the MVC. It takes game experience to develope consistency and cohesion.
AP is a once in a decade type player (maybe multiple) for a mid-major program. I'm not banking that we'll be finding another special player like that anytime soon. We're going to need to elevate our play as a team.
It's just tough to watch the dumb turnovers and the lack of ball movement with this team at times. We just get stagnant at points. Valpo lost that game against Ball State because we couldn't take care of the ball. If I didn't tell anyone the score but told you to guess by looking at the box scores you probably would have guessed we won the game.
Valpo64 gets my vote for most incisive analysis. Me? I'm just gonna go along for the ride. Up. Down. Frustrating. Excellerating.
These kids will hand us all of the above game by game. But in the end, if Matt is the coach I think he is, he will pull it all together for Arch Madness.
Quote from: VU2014 on December 11, 2017, 03:06:59 PM
QuoteLottich will learn some things from this...
1) you don't have to start the second half with the same guys you started the first half
2) don't start players that aren't producing
3) don't run clock with 4 minutes left
4) tell your team to guard the 3 at all costs up 2
1. agreed. I'd love to pick his brain and ton of things. Overall we need to realize we lost on the final possession on the road against a strong Ball State team without our best player.
2. I'm assuming that is aimed at Parker. My guess is that Coach doesn't want to crush his confidence (he did the same thing with Bradford last season). But to be fair to coach, what do you want him to do. The only other option is Mileek is also very green and almost always gets himself in foul trouble. Yes Mileek has shown he can produce more but let's not act like he's the massive upgrade at this point in his college career. There are flaws in his game too. Maybe he thinks Mileek pairs better with different guys. The coaches know this team then we do.
3. I'm not sure what was going on during the finals minutes of the game. We couldn't execute the half-court when we needed to. This team is clearly still a work in progress.
4. Sometimes you just need to give a guy credit for nailing a shot. Valpo is actually a very good team at defending the 3. Clearly that Persons 3 was a moment where Tevonn would have been very useful to have health & on the court. In hind sight they may have wanted to force that final shot on someone else and I don't know why Joe (not a great defender got switched on Persons). I have to go back and watch but was Max on the court for that final shot? If so he'd be the ideal guy playing man-to-man with Persons for the final shot.
QuoteI'm glad to see I'm not the only one questioning Lottich. The offense just looks stagnant/easy to guard too often. Combine that with not being a sub par 3 point shooting team, it's a combo that can lead to lulls/sloppy play (131 assists to 150 turnovers this season). By this time of the year, you need to have mixed in more "stuff" because scouting has become very advanced. And this is just for non conference opponents, it will only get harder come MVC play.
For the record, I love the energy and recruiting Lottich brings to Valpo. But I'm not sold with the on court portion yet. One thing that will always stick out to me was last season at home against Oakland we came out of a timeout and Shane dribbled it up and went off a little false ball screen action with Alec and shot/missed a 3 without a single pass. Ever since then I've had slivers of doubt enter my mind.
I don't mean to be super critical. Head coaching is hard. Especially the year after losing a player like Alec. We are a good defensive/rebounding team, good in transition. I just want to see more out of this roster in the half court offensively, they have the ability.
100% agree the half-court looks bad. The ball movement hasn't been great. I'm not sure if that's a personnel issue (we are just plain and simple a BAD 3 point shooting team with only a few good shooters) or an issue of being so young and not having experienced team that has played together. I tend to think its the ladder. Last year we were a good half-court team but that team was also stacked with veterans.
If we don't get our act together with the half-court offense its going to be a long year because the MVC is a VERY good defensive league with teams that can clamp down the defense on you and force teams into bad shots. We need to get better by the end of the season.
I'm willing to stay patient with this team. Like Coach Lottich said, "This team will better by the end the season." I think that 8-0 start got to our heads (mine included) and our expectations got loftier then they were coming into the season and now we'll be without Tevonn for an extended period of time so its time for us to re-adjust.
Hazen does not look like a PF. The few times he's gotten low post touches, he's flailed over, turning the ball over. The team has been far more effective playing 4 guards - they've played lineups like Joseph/Bakari, Golder, Burton, and Kiser throughout the year without Mileek or Hazen in there as true PFs. At this point, there's no rational reason why Hazen should start. If it hurts his confidence, it's not like we're getting ANYTHING out of him anyways. I think it could only help at this point as he might be more aggressive off the bench. So I would go small to start, maybe put Kiser in and set the tone at the beginning.
As for the half court offense with 5 minutes left - I thought we could have avoided it all together by playing up-tempo. Lottich recruited a bunch of athletes that can run in transition, but is still trying to shoehorn the Drew high-ball screen pick-and-roll offense. Last year we had Peters, so we could just iso him all game once they got the right switch. Valpo is still trying to figure out how to score in the half court this year, and I think it'll be a work in progress for awhile. I'm hoping we see more ball movement and more early penetration. Seems like the ball gets swung around the perimeter with no purpose because there's not really a guy we're trying to get a mismatch on.