Per Paul Oren, Burton suspended for academic purposes.
What a twelve month run of luck for this program.
Does anyone think he will be back? I would guess he'd have to sit at least this semester even if he were to stick around Valpo wouldn't he? Luckily it's a rebuilding year and I suppose the silver lining is more experience for the freshmen.
Bet he joins the Bug Baller Basketball League.
Not throwing stones, but..... is this a surprise for the staff if they have been monitoring the team academic progress?
BTW, one of the two threads should either be deleted or combined with the other.
Who knows? This is unusual in that Joe had been here for a year and clearly understood the academics involved. We haven't had many cases like this but it's not uncommon for schools with academics like ours to lose freshmen athletes who really didn't know what they were getting into.
I had heard the transition had been hard acadeically. He had a year to work on it. I wonder if the added pressre of playing was too difficlt
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on December 20, 2017, 07:24:21 PM
Who knows? This is unusual in that Joe had been here for a year and clearly understood the academics involved. We haven't had many cases like this but it's not uncommon for schools with academics like ours to lose freshmen athletes who really didn't know what they were getting into.
No D-I BB program would ever allow a student to be totally independent of academic supervision.
Markus Golder just posted to Twitter...
https://twitter.com/TheReal_MG3/status/943654495724101633
Transferring the post from the other thread to this one.
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 20, 2017, 07:25:19 PM
This is a complete failure by the player to meet his obligations to himself and the team. Go to class, do the work, get help if you need it (of which plenty is available to athletes). My strong suspicion is that Burton will never play for Valparaiso again.
Quote from: vufan75 on December 20, 2017, 07:28:41 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on December 20, 2017, 07:10:16 PM
This is not good.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/943648821153816576
Ouch. Really hurts with Tevonn out at least another week minimum. Big opportunity for Mr. Golder I would guess. Our vaunted depth will be surely tested.
Anyone familiar with academic suspensions and how long players typically are out? I assume/hope this is about incomplete assignments that need to be completed to pass a course to regain eligibility. Ugh.
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 20, 2017, 07:34:30 PM
My guess is that he did not meet the grade point minimum for the first semester. The only way to improve that is to get grades for another semester.
It sounds like Joe isn't with the team. I hope he's not thinking about leaving Valparaiso University. I know this probably really hurts for him but he has the opportunity to come back strong and get his grades back up and earn his degree.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/943649180014272512
Markus Golder showing his support.
https://twitter.com/TheReal_MG3/status/943654495724101633
That might explain this tweet from a few days earlier. Maybe I'm reading too much into the tweet.
https://twitter.com/TheReal_MG3/status/943153631640961024
Golder's tweet was interesting...
Not the news I was expecting checking in here tonight.
With that said, I don't have much sympathy here for Joe if he in fact failed to make the grades. It's not that hard to stay eligible
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 20, 2017, 07:23:43 PM
Not throwing stones, but..... is this a surprise for the staff if they have been monitoring the team academic progress?
From what I understand, the staff has been all over this for 3 semesters.
Quote from: Valpo89 on December 20, 2017, 07:51:54 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 20, 2017, 07:23:43 PM
Not throwing stones, but..... is this a surprise for the staff if they have been monitoring the team academic progress?
From what I understand, the staff has been all over this for 3 semesters.
Yeah Joe had some academic problems over at Oklahoma State. I heard he improved last year in his red-shirt season, but maybe he struggled this Fall semester.
I'm not really sure what to think. I'd like to hear more about this before I judge. If it turns out that he just couldn't keep his grades up last semester then Joe needs to take an honest look in mirror and pay the price and do everything he can off the court to rectify the situation for himself and his brothers on the Team. Rules are rules and upholding high standards is important for all involved even if this hurts right now.
This is a crushing blow for our program especially with Tevonn out with illness.
Quote from: Valpo89 on December 20, 2017, 07:51:54 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 20, 2017, 07:23:43 PM
Not throwing stones, but..... is this a surprise for the staff if they have been monitoring the team academic progress?
From what I understand, the staff has been all over this for 3 semesters.
Ineligible players still use (1) scholarship right? Basically if Joe isn't able to make a comeback, his scholarship is already lost for the rest of THIS season right?
How Valpo Basketball fans have felt for the last 12 months.....
(http://psychologue-adultes-couples.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Peur-detre-heureux-300x225.jpg)
QuoteAnyone familiar with academic suspensions and how long players typically are out? I assume/hope this is about incomplete assignments that need to be completed to pass a course to regain eligibility. Ugh.
I'm a little fresher on the rules for students in general, rather than the different/additional rules that apply to NCAA athletes. Someone could check the university athletic handbook for those details.
From the wording of the announcement, it sounds like it's probably a GPA issue. I suppose there's a chance that one of his grades is an Incomplete and that it could be completed quickly, perhaps bringing him above the required minima.
Then,speaking in general about a student-athlete, rather than about Joe specifically:
If as student's GPA misses the requirement based on final course grades, there is an appeals process for university academic suspensions. That committee normally meets in the first week of January. A successful appeal would keep them enrolled at the university, if they would otherwise be suspended. Again, that's the process for any student to retain their ability to take spring (and fall, normally it's a one year suspension) classes. There could be a different/additional process for athletes.
Quote from: VU2014 on December 20, 2017, 07:47:29 PM
It sounds like Joe isn't with the team. I hope he's not thinking about leaving Valparaiso University. I know this probably really hurts for him but he has the opportunity to come back strong and get his grades back up and earn his degree.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/943649180014272512
Markus Golder showing his support.
https://twitter.com/TheReal_MG3/status/943654495724101633
That might explain this tweet from a few days earlier. Maybe I'm reading too much into the tweet.
https://twitter.com/TheReal_MG3/status/943153631640961024
I do not like the tone of Golder's tweets. It shows a lot of character to support someone when they are down and offer ways to help. It is quite another to blame the institution. Unless there is something else going on here, it seems like Golder is doing the latter - which does not bode well for this team.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 20, 2017, 08:24:14 PM
Ineligible players still use (1) scholarship right? Basically if Joe isn't able to make a comeback, his scholarship is already lost for the rest of THIS season right?
Correct. It was similar to the John Middleton situation. We lost his scholarship even though he transferred. We misses out on the Australian SMU transfer Tom Wilson because we didn't have a scholarship available for the Spring semester. He ended up transferring to Boise State because they had one available but he ended up going pro instead of completing school.
Fingers crossed Joe will stay at Valpo and works hard to get his academics straightened out. I'm not sure he'll eligible for the rest of this season. Hopefully he can come back next season.
Yes, Golder is kinda blamin' the University... which ain't smart. I wonder if he was tight with Joe. That always hits hard too.
If you can't maintain a 1.8 GPA or above, that is completely on you. No one to blame but yourself. I believe that was the minimum allowed to play, but may be incorrect.
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 20, 2017, 09:29:20 PMI wonder if he was tight with Joe. That always hits hard too.
They called themselves the Flight Brothers, so I would guess they were close.
Asking the question, because I genuinely don't know the answer: does VU still require a higher-than-the-NCAA-minimum GPA to participate? (I ask becuase they used to at one time - I know it was a constant frustration back during the Tom Smith era. On several occasions, guys would be suspended for grades only to find out it was VU's GPA requirements, not the NCAA's, that were the issue).
I only ask because Golder's tweet would make more sense in that light. (Either that, or he believes Joe got shafted on a grade).
I remember it being 1.8 when I was in school. One of my teammates was ticked that he basically had to redshirt, because he received a 1.6 his first semester, and barely missed it.
Question.
Back in my day Valpo was on a 3 point scale, meaning 0 for a D, 1 for C, 2 for a B and 3 for an A. Then a 1.8 gpa would have been like a B- average. Have they gone to a standard 4 point scale now?
Yes, it was a 4.0 when I was in school, so 1.8 is essentially a high C-.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/943714637010391041
Valpotx - I have never heard of a grade of "high C-"
Under Tom Smith, there were several players not meeting academic requirements that had no reason attending Valpo.
With some here implying that academics were an issue for Joe at OSU, I think part of whatever the outcome of this ends up being falls on the coaching staff. I have had a few conversations with Joe at team functions over the last couple of seasons and one thing is clear: Joe's no dummy. And I trust our coaching staff was smart enough to figure that out having much more time with him before he transferred.
So Lottich took a risk, and barring a turnaround, it's going to be a bust. That being said, Joe's a talent worth taking a risk on, and I'm certainly not opposed to trying again in the future. But while the bulk of the blame is, rightfully so, on Joe, the staff had to know this was a possibility all along.
I would think that Joe is done at Valpo. It apparently is grades and how could he improve his average without completing another semester? He was a red shirt junior which makes him what? 22? He is headed overseas or possibly to a JC just to get some playing time.
The danger we face when going after better players is that in high school they may have had a pass and then arrive at Valpo totally unprepared to get through the academic rigors. Do we even have an African Studies program?
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 21, 2017, 05:30:07 AMValpotx - I have never heard of a grade of "high C-"
On VU's 4.0 scale a C- gets you 1.7. So, a 1.8 average would be a "high C-" eg a C for every two C-'s.
That said, about five years ago the College of Arts and Sciences GPA requirement tightened as you advanced at VU. For a freshman a 1.8 might have been sufficient. These days I think it's a little more uniform. Being below a 2.0 gets you put on academic probation (i.e. a warning) and then another semester below 2.0 (or eg failing any courses while on probation) gets you suspended for a year.
Again, the NCAA rules are a bit different.
Appropriately, student athletes have to meet both. They need to meet VU's to remain students in good standing, and the NCAA's to be eligible for intercollegiate competition.
NCAA Academic "Requirements" - lol (See Carolina, North)
Haven't seen this mentioned, and I thought it would serve as a reminder here of the Valparaiso focus on the individual as a student-athlete.
Hamlet Named Enterprise Bank MVC Scholar-Athlete of the Week
Valparaiso University women's basketball junior Meredith Hamlet (McBain, Mich. / McBain) has been named the Missouri Valley Conference Female Scholar Athlete of the Week, presented by Enterprise Bank and Trust Company.
To qualify for the honor, a student-athlete must carry a cumulative grade point average of 3.20 and be at least a sophomore in academic standing. The Valley honors one male and female athlete each week, taking into account their academic qualifications and athletic performance.
Hamlet had 23 points before halftime in Friday's win over IU Northwest and finished the night 8-of-10 shooting, 5-of-6 from beyond the arc and 8-of-8 at the free-throw line for 29 points, matching a career high and reaching that total for the third straight season. Since the start of the 2015-16 season, there have been 11 occasions where a Valpo player has hit 5 or more 3-pointers in a game, and Hamlet has accounted for seven of those...Hamlet also thrives in the classroom, where she owns a 3.48 grade point average in public relations.
Student Burton is at a crossroads. I hope for his own sake that he is getting good counseling, outside of the team, athletic department and University. He needs to determine what his true values and long term goals are, with respect to getting a college degree. It will be a long, tough road. A road with many long term benefits - the knowledge of setting goals and accomplishing them; facing and overcoming adversity; getting that degree and all the benefits that come with a Valpo degree. Reach out to Lexus, who stayed to get his degree. Words from someone like that could go a long way. All of the other former players, recent or otherwise, especially those that pgmado has had the opportunity to interview recently - they could provide some feedback to what getting that degree means to them. How much hard work they had to dig deep to learn about themselves.
Student Burton has some decisions ahead of him. I hope he takes the proper time to reflect and choose wisely.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on December 20, 2017, 11:17:13 PMAsking the question, because I genuinely don't know the answer: does VU still require a higher-than-the-NCAA-minimum GPA to participate? (I ask becuase they used to at one time - I know it was a constant frustration back during the Tom Smith era. On several occasions, guys would be suspended for grades only to find out it was VU's GPA requirements, not the NCAA's, that were the issue).
Also out of my own curiosity, I took a closer look at this question.
Student athletes are required to satisfy potentially several different standards. The Student Athlete Handbook has standards which I think likely come from the NCAA. Their college (Arts and Sciences, Engineering, Nursing, etc.) has their own set of requirements, which vary a bit by college. I'm most familiar with Arts and Sciences, and my comments here will be based on those requirements. Potentially a major or minor program could have additional requirements, even within A&S.
I don't see any particular reason why the university/college requirements should line up with the NCAA requirements. It would seem a little strange for Valpo to adopt the NCAA standards for all students, and you can imagine there might even be reasons to hold athletes to somewhat different standards than a general student population. Student athletes are both students and athletes, so they're of course held to both/all standards.
These days, in Arts and Sciences, it's mostly your cumulative GPA that gets you on probation and then suspended. If you're ever below a 2.0 GPA you're put on probation. The usual terms of probation involve completing 12 credits in a semester with no F's, U's, or incompletes and at least a semester GPA of 2.0 (your cumulative GPA could potentially remain below a 2.0 and you'd likely them remain on probation for another semester). Violate the terms of your probation and you're suspended for a year. There is an appeal process for suspensions.
This means, for example, that you could have a very bad semester e.g. in your junior year and not even be placed on probation by the College of Arts and Sciences.
The athletic rules don't seem to have the idea of a probation. You're either eligible or you're not. They generally require a certain number of credits to have been completed in the past semester, and in the past two semesters or calendar year, and to have completed a certain fraction of the credits toward your degree. "Progress Towards Degree" seems to be the theme. For example, to be eligible your second semester you have to have completed 6 credits your first semester. To be eligible in your third semester you have to have completed 6 hours in the second semester, 18 hours between the first and second, and 24 prior to the third (presumably that allows a summer or two). And you need to have a cumulative GPA of of 90% the required minimum (minimum required to graduate, I guess). That 90% rises to 95% and 100% as you get older. There are other milestones like declaring a major and finishing 40% of your credits before being eligible in your 5th semester.
So, there are circumstances (e.g. cumulative GPA of less than 2.0 after two or three semesters, etc.) where the College of Arts and Sciences would put you on probation and then suspend you but you might still be eligible per the Athletic rules. But, of course, you couldn't play because you couldn't register for classes.
And, there are other circumstances (e.g. where you have one really awful semester, and pass only 5 credit hours, but your overall GPA is fine because of good grades when you were younger) where you'd be in good standing (but hopefully in contact with your adviser and aware of your perilous situation) with the College of Arts and Sciences but would be ineligible per Athletic (NCAA?) rules.
We could of course debate the exact standards, and _maybe_ whether there ought to somehow be one universal set of standards. But, everything above seems sort of OK to me.
I'm not the most expert on these matters, but have had some inolvement. Happy to entertain questions.
Of course, none of this necessarily has anything to do with any particular student's situation e.g. I don't know why Burton was suspended and couldn't/wouldn't tell you if I did. Except that all students athletes (i.e. those in the College of Arts and Sciences, for what I outlined above) are held to these kinds of standards.
Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.
Normally when an athlete doesn't make grades, it is announced that they are said to be academically ineligible. VU announced that JB was suspended for failing to meet academic standards.
Are these two things the same, or is 'suspended' not quite a serious as 'ineligible'?
Quote from: valpospartan on December 21, 2017, 10:47:32 PM
Normally when an athlete doesn't make grades, it is announced that they are said to be academically ineligible. VU announced that JB was suspended for failing to meet academic standards.
Are these two things the same, or is 'suspended' not quite a serious as 'ineligible'?
The phrase "academically ineligible" does sound familiar. I don't know if/how that phrase is used at VU. It might plausibly be used for someone who hasn't met the VU Athletic (aka NCAA?) requirements.
The College of Arts and Sciences definitely calls their device a "suspension". I don't know if the VU announcement was using that roughly as a technical term, or just happened to used that word. Obviously the College of Arts and Sciences doesn't suspend anyone "from the the Valpo men's basketball program" which is what the announcement actually said.
Hard to say, maybe case-by-case, whether violating the A&S criteria or the Athletic criteria is more serious. The A&S at least has an appeal process. But, if you're suspended by them, it's normally for a year. The Athletic version may perhaps be missing the appeal - I'm not sure. But probably can be for as little as a semester (or maybe there's even a chance of e.g. clearing up an Incomplete and becoming eligible before another semester passes).
Quote from: valpolaw on December 21, 2017, 07:24:21 PM
Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.
Do you mean Matt Bowen at Minnesota Duluth? I actually Googled him a few weeks ago to see where he was coaching. He stayed at Bemidji State for several seasons, before leaving for Minnesota-Duluth about 5-6 seasons ago.
Joe Burton's listed major is "Communication" which presumably lies within the Arts and Sciences realm.
Quote from: valpotx on December 22, 2017, 01:26:00 AM
Quote from: valpolaw on December 21, 2017, 07:24:21 PM
Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.
Do you mean Matt Bowen at Minnesota Duluth? I actually Googled him a few weeks ago to see where he was coaching. He stayed at Bemidji State for several seasons, before leaving for Minnesota-Duluth about 5-6 seasons ago.
Brian Bowen is the player who reportedly (or his father, anyways) was the one the money was being funneled to from Louisville. He played his prep ball at LaLumiere.
Quote from: ValpoHoops on December 22, 2017, 09:23:55 AM
Quote from: valpotx on December 22, 2017, 01:26:00 AM
Quote from: valpolaw on December 21, 2017, 07:24:21 PM
Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.
Do you mean Matt Bowen at Minnesota Duluth? I actually Googled him a few weeks ago to see where he was coaching. He stayed at Bemidji State for several seasons, before leaving for Minnesota-Duluth about 5-6 seasons ago.
Brian Bowen is the player who reportedly (or his father, anyways) was the one the money was being funneled to from Louisville. He played his prep ball at La Lumiere.
It's hard to believe La Lumiere is a school from NWI. They pump out big time basketball talent but nobody ever talks about them from the region, at least from my experience. Has Valpo ever recruited a player from there? Loyola got a huge get in Franklin Agunanne who is going to be a La Lumiere graduated next season and he's ranked as 4-star PF by ESPN.
Quote from: VU2014 on December 22, 2017, 09:32:23 AM
Quote from: ValpoHoops on December 22, 2017, 09:23:55 AM
Quote from: valpotx on December 22, 2017, 01:26:00 AM
Quote from: valpolaw on December 21, 2017, 07:24:21 PM
Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.
Do you mean Matt Bowen at Minnesota Duluth? I actually Googled him a few weeks ago to see where he was coaching. He stayed at Bemidji State for several seasons, before leaving for Minnesota-Duluth about 5-6 seasons ago.
Brian Bowen is the player who reportedly (or his father, anyways) was the one the money was being funneled to from Louisville. He played his prep ball at La Lumiere.
It's hard to believe La Lumiere is a school from NWI. They pump out big time basketball talent but nobody ever talks about them from the region, at least from my experience. Has Valpo ever recruited a player from there? Loyola got a huge get in Franklin Agunanne who is going to be a La Lumiere graduated next season and he's ranked as 4-star PF by ESPN.
La Lumiere probably doesn't get much attention because they aren't a IHSAA member school. They do play some local schools, but also travel around the country playing tournaments. Quite a change from 35 or so years ago when they were fairly mediocre in all sports.
Back on topic, on the last episode of USH, Paul Oren didn't seem very optimistic about Burton returning to the team this season. At least that was my interpretation ... did anyone else get the same feeling?
Quote from: VU2014 on December 22, 2017, 09:32:23 AM
It's hard to believe La Lumiere is a school from NWI. They pump out big time basketball talent but nobody ever talks about them from the region, at least from my experience. Has Valpo ever recruited a player from there?
De'Andre Haskins
Quote from: vu72 on December 22, 2017, 08:56:08 AM
Joe Burton's listed major is "Communication" which presumably lies within the Arts and Sciences realm.
Yeah, sorry Communication is definitely A and S, so the rules I outlined should be the appropriate ones for a student like Joe.
It could/would vary for eg engineering or nursing or business students. (Sometimes students who don't meet the engineering or business requirements end up defaulting to an A and S major; I get the sense that engineering is usually somewhat stricter, I'm less sure about the others).
Quote from: zvillehaze on December 22, 2017, 10:17:02 AM
Back on topic, on the last episode of USH, Paul Oren didn't seem very optimistic about Burton returning to the team this season. At least that was my interpretation ... did anyone else get the same feeling?
I definitely got the same feeling. Paul even mentioned that he didn't know if Joe would return to Valparaiso. But nobody is talking because of the FERPA law. I hope Joe stays in school and just works his tail off to get his grades up even if he can't play this season.
Quote from: valpospartan on December 21, 2017, 10:47:32 PM
Normally when an athlete doesn't make grades, it is announced that they are said to be academically ineligible. VU announced that JB was suspended for failing to meet academic standards.
Are these two things the same, or is 'suspended' not quite a serious as 'ineligible'?
Was thinking the same thing. Is it possible he meets NCAA standards (academically eligible), but doesn't meet VU standards, and thus suspended?
I hope there is something he can do like contact professors and challenge grades, resubmit prior work, extra credit that might bring one or two classes up from 1.7 to 2.0.
Quote from: covufan on December 22, 2017, 11:02:44 AMI hope there is something he can do like contact professors and challenge grades, resubmit prior work, extra credit that might bring one or two classes up from 1.7 to 2.0.
I think we all are whistling in the dark. I would think that once grades are posted they are posted, unless, something was overlooked or an online grade was posted incorrectly. Those things didn't happen. Can't imagine how he would be able to gain eligibility before the end of the next semester.
Now, if he has met NCAA grade requirements but not Valpo requirements then perhaps he could trasfer and play. That would have to be at a non-D1 school. Perhaps D3 or NAIA. Maybe Texas Lutheran could find a spot on their team!
Uh oh, maybe Paul knows something that no one else could, because he teaches Communications classes. Even more so, maybe Paul is the one that gave him the bad grades. Ergo, down with Paul Oren! lol jk :)
A few additional comments (while trying to avoid being redundant)
-Grade and progress criteria for remaining in good academic standing can come from the university, the specific college, and the specific department. Some departments' standards (I do not know about communications) are driven by the accrediting body for that field. Thus (for example), accounting standards would be higher than standards for the business school, which are probably higher than standards for the university. The most strict requirement will always be the one that applies to the student.
-In last night's Kansas-Stanford game, a player for Stanford was playing in his first game after coming off academic ineligibility in the first semester. The announcers said that he had gotten a C in an advanced Calculus course and that placed him below Stanford requirements (thus making him ineligible). While Stanford may well be the extreme case, universities setting higher standards than the NCAA is not uncommon.
-A professor will not allow a student to revise prior work or submit extra credit after the grades were completed. If they did, the university would reject the grade change and the professor would be in a lot of trouble.
-As far as Burton, I hope that he decides to stay and focuses on getting his grades up. Someone said this is time for him to step up as a student, and I fully agree. That would show a great deal of character.
Quote from: valpospartan on December 21, 2017, 10:47:32 PMNormally when an athlete doesn't make grades, it is announced that they are said to be academically ineligible. VU announced that JB was suspended for failing to meet academic standards. Are these two things the same, or is 'suspended' not quite a serious as 'ineligible'?
Academic issues are worded in terms of probation and eligible/ineligible. Neither the Student Handbook nor the Student Athlete handbook references suspension for academic issues. Suspension in the SA handbook is only referenced for Code of Conduct (typically legal). Even a violation of the banned substance policy is termed as ineligible and not suspension.
My guess is that Burton is ineligible and won't be eligible for another semester.
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 22, 2017, 11:53:11 AM
-A professor will not allow a student to revise prior work or submit extra credit after the grades were completed. If they did, the university would reject the grade change and the professor would be in a lot of trouble.
Just to add a clarification and exception: If a professor agreed to offer a grade of I (Incomplete) with the provision that missing work be submitted or extra credit be done by the student to lift the grade to passing, then the student would have until the last day of classes in spring semester to turn in that work, and then the grade could be changed with no problem. [Perhaps this was attempted but no agreement could be reached with the professor, perhaps the issue concerns more than one class, or perhaps there are additional difficulties.]
Somewhat applicable situation at Oregon:
https://www.dailyemerald.com/2017/12/21/track-field-mens-womens-basketball-receive-notice-infractions-ncaa/
QuoteAllegation No. 1 is that a professor within the University of Oregon anthropology department knowingly moved former Oregon track athlete Jasmine Todd's grade from an "F" to a "B-" so she could remain eligible for competition in March of 2016. The NCAA states she competed in four contests while ineligible. Oregon later discovered the grade change and rescinded the grade and her degree.
The violation is considered "Level II," which is considered a significant breach of conduct.
The NCAA's notice of allegations says that a male professor "knowingly arranged for fraudulent academic credit or false transcripts," in Todd's "Anthropology 278: Scientific Racism" class. The professor's name is redacted from the report, but 2016 course schedules indicate that adjunct professor Larry Ulibarri taught that class. Ulibarri was still teaching classes as of fall term 2017.
A little late to this off topic party, but Dino Jakolis was a LaLu guy.
Quote from: valpopal on December 22, 2017, 01:20:37 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 22, 2017, 11:53:11 AM
-A professor will not allow a student to revise prior work or submit extra credit after the grades were completed. If they did, the university would reject the grade change and the professor would be in a lot of trouble.
Just to add a clarification and exception: If a professor agreed to offer a grade of I (Incomplete) with the provision that missing work be submitted or extra credit be done by the student to lift the grade to passing, then the student would have until the last day of classes in spring semester to turn in that work, and then the grade could be changed with no problem. [Perhaps this was attempted but no agreement could be reached with the professor, perhaps the issue concerns more than one class, or perhaps there are additional difficulties.]
Very true. A grade also could be incomplete and then changed if there were a pending investigation of some issue (example: a claim made of academic misconduct).
Quote from: valpopal on December 22, 2017, 01:20:37 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 22, 2017, 11:53:11 AM
-A professor will not allow a student to revise prior work or submit extra credit after the grades were completed. If they did, the university would reject the grade change and the professor would be in a lot of trouble.
Just to add a clarification and exception: If a professor agreed to offer a grade of I (Incomplete) with the provision that missing work be submitted or extra credit be done by the student to lift the grade to passing, then the student would have until the last day of classes in spring semester to turn in that work, and then the grade could be changed with no problem. [Perhaps this was attempted but no agreement could be reached with the professor, perhaps the issue concerns more than one class, or perhaps there are additional difficulties.]
That's my best guess as to something that could _maybe_ get Burton back in a VU uniform sooner rather than later.
If he was on probation with the College of A&S (the normal process before a suspension) such an incomplete would normally violate the terms of his probation. But, if there was a compelling reason for the incomplete that might be the sort of thing an appeal committee would understand.
I understand there are FERPA Laws but I hope the Coaching Staff or Athletics Department can just signal to the fan-base early on if Joe will be eligible at some point this season. I know the Jubril situation was very different from this situation but I don't want to go through the "will he play or won't he play" game all season long. It's exhausting. Please just send a signal.
I doubt we'll see him at the Indiana State game tomorrow. Jubril didn't travel with the team when he was ineligible. It will be interesting to see if he's in the building for Missouri State game on Dec. 31. It's still on break so he may still be on break, but if he's still on the team you'd expect him to be with the team at home. I really hope Joe can figure out his grade situation not only for the teams sake but also for his own personal situation beyond basketball.
I thought someone had posted that he dropped out of school and returned to Texas.
Quote from: valpo64 on December 27, 2017, 11:42:04 AM
I thought someone had posted that he dropped out of school and returned to Texas.
What was posted was that he returned to Texas. But, school is on Christmas break. We don't know whether he is there on break or there because he has left Valpo for good.
Since the official release indicated he was "suspended", I think a chance for reinstatement exists. I'm sure that if he's dismissed or leaves on his own, the university will provide that information on a timely basis.
Quote from: vu72 on December 27, 2017, 11:44:12 AMQuote from: valpo64 on December 27, 2017, 11:42:04 AMI thought someone had posted that he dropped out of school and returned to Texas.
What was posted was that he returned to Texas. But, school is on Christmas break. We don't know whether he is there on break or there because he has left Valpo for good.
Isn't he permitted to practice if he's suspended?
Is Patrick Robinson (Detroit GT) still at Valpo? Can he play? :)
Quote from: valpotx on December 27, 2017, 10:40:45 PM
Is Patrick Robinson (Detroit GT) still at Valpo? Can he play? :)
If he was elgible he'd probably get big minutes when Tevonn was out. He's a pretty solid player and a very good 3pt shooter.
I could be wrong but I don't remember valpo having as many basketball suspensions as we have had the past 2 years. Sure one or two over the season....but we started this year with suspensions. Even if skara would have stayed, he would have been suspended for a lengthy time as well.
Ironically Valparaiso Men's Basketball was one of the only programs in the nation with a perfect 1000 APR score last season from the NCAA.
OKmick - In 1981-82, Al Hudson and Kelvin Henderson left the team mid season due to academics. Also, by the end of the season Brian Hubbard left the team. It was a pretty dismal season.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 28, 2017, 12:24:24 PM
OKmick - In 1981-82, Al Hudson and Kelvin Henderson left the team mid season due to academics. Also, by the end of the season Brian Hubbard left the team. It was a pretty dismal season.
Ah, the bad ole days......I believe Hudson had a shoplifting problem at the Bookstore. He had some talent. As did Hubbard who lasted the season but left during the next season I believe.
Hudson was a very talented player and many thought that year's team could be the one to turn the corner, coming off of a 12-15 season. The team got off to a slow start and then the three guys washed out and it was like a gut-punch. Team finished 9-18 but that was misleading, as four of the wins came over Division II teams.
Has anyone heard anything on the status of Joe? Is there any hope of getting Joe back this season?
This team needs his offense. We are so limited offensively right now.
Quote from: VU2014 on December 29, 2017, 09:37:32 AMHas anyone heard anything on the status of Joe? Is there any hope of getting Joe back this season? This team needs his offense. We are so limited offensively right now.
I have a feeling he is gone for the season. However, if he comes back to campus after the Christmas break, it means he's trying to improve his grades to get back on the team. If he doesn't show up I'm inclined to think he's thrown in the towel on Valpo. So if there is anybody on campus who sees him let us know.
Quote from: VUBBFan on December 29, 2017, 12:14:43 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on December 29, 2017, 09:37:32 AMHas anyone heard anything on the status of Joe? Is there any hope of getting Joe back this season? This team needs his offense. We are so limited offensively right now.
I have a feeling he is gone for the season. However, if he comes back to campus after the Christmas break, it means he's trying to improve his grades to get back on the team. If he doesn't show up I'm inclined to think he's thrown in the towel on Valpo. So if there is anybody on campus who sees him let us know.
The university's pretty much shut down for the holidays. I'd be very surprised if there's any news much in advance of Jan 6 at SIU. I suppose there's an outside chance we see Joe on the bench or in the stands Dec 31 in Valpo, and that would probably be a positive sign. If there are going to be any changes to his status this spring semester, I suppose they'd happen by, or not long after, the start of classes on Jan 10 (and the Drake game that day). Or, I guess, if the issue really is an Incomplete that could probably be resolved any time during the spring semester.
I think it's entirely possible that there's no further announcement this academic year. We might be relying on anecdotal reports about whether or not he's seen on campus.
How's that for a post? Speculation that we might get news in a few days, or a week, or a month or two, or never?
QuoteThis team needs his offense. We are so limited offensively right now.
It is quite a change from the early part of this season, maybe against somewhat weaker opposition, feeling that we had almost no blanks on offense. To feeling like we're struggling to find _any_ options on offense and watching empty possession after empty possession.
Bakari and Tevonn put up big numbers, in the end, at Indiana State. But it was sure ugly to watch for long stretches.
From what I understand he's gone and not coming back.
You can skate by in academics at Okie State, but Valpo's profs won't be part of giving passing grades to you, just because you are an athlete...
Quote from: Chairback on December 31, 2017, 03:54:00 PM
From what I understand he's gone and not coming back.
That's a gut punch. He really let down the team and himself.
I don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom? Given that Valpo doesn't have North Carolina type bunny classes that can keep a guy eligible if he can sign his name to a blank piece of paper. I mean a guy can be a great athlete but just not have it for a course.
I had one class my Sophmore year that just kicked my butt big time. I withdrew rather than fail and made some course adjustments the next semester that allowed me to go on and get my degree. How do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe? One course could have made all the difference for him this year. Doesn't mean he let himself or the team down. Not everybody sails smoothly through to their B.A. or B.S. But the coaching staff should have been on this to know if he was struggling, and with a fallback plan that would keep him eligible without compromising achedemic standards.
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AMHow do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe?
FERPA
"There will be no further comment"
although, I did suggest to Paul that a non-student-specific conversation with someone in the academic support team from athletics might make an interesting segment on Union Street Hoops.... to discuss the process.
Quote from: talksalot on January 01, 2018, 08:16:52 AM
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AMHow do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe?
FERPA
"There will be no further comment"
although, I did suggest to Paul that a non-student-specific conversation with someone in the academic support team from athletics might make an interesting segment on Union Street Hoops.... to discuss the process.
I would be interested in listening to that discussion.
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AMI don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom? Given that Valpo doesn't have North Carolina type bunny classes that can keep a guy eligible if he can sign his name to a blank piece of paper. I mean a guy can be a great athlete but just not have it for a course. I had one class my Sophmore year that just kicked my butt big time. I withdrew rather than fail and made some course adjustments the next semester that allowed me to go on and get my degree. How do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe? One course could have made all the difference for him this year. Doesn't mean he let himself or the team down. Not everybody sails smoothly through to their B.A. or B.S. But the coaching staff should have been on this to know if he was struggling, and with a fallback plan that would keep him eligible without compromising achedemic standards.
I'm a believer in the simplest answer. The kid couldn't hack the academics. For some, it's a lot easier to blame some outside force such as the coaching staff. I'll go with simple.
Anyone else wondering if Burton officially quit leading up to the MSU game? It's pure speculation but Coach said Bakari had a bad (not direct quote) day yesterday.
They appeared to be quite close, no?
Only reason I find that odd is that THE WHOLE TEAM should be having a "bad" day, not just Bakari.
Also, how about a 10-game stretch with no drama? (No new injuries or mono or academic discipline)
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 01, 2018, 11:54:51 AM
Anyone else wondering if Burton officially quit leading up to the MSU game? It's pure speculation but Coach said Bakari had a bad (not direct quote) day yesterday.
They appeared to be quite close, no?
Only reason I find that odd is that THE WHOLE TEAM should be having a "bad" day, not just Bakari.
Maybe Joe quit or was forced off the team for academic reasons? I'm not sure. Chairback said he thinks he's not coming back. I know Bakari was very close to Joe so maybe he was taking it harder then others. Paul also mentioned Bakari was sick yesterday, which could have played a role in his poor play. Coach Lottich said he was dealing with something in his personal life also.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/947601332239847425
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/947607550551318528
Did you watch the game??? The whole team had a bad day yesterday!
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AM
I don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom? Given that Valpo doesn't have North Carolina type bunny classes that can keep a guy eligible if he can sign his name to a blank piece of paper. I mean a guy can be a great athlete but just not have it for a course.
I had one class my Sophmore year that just kicked my butt big time. I withdrew rather than fail and made some course adjustments the next semester that allowed me to go on and get my degree. How do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe? One course could have made all the difference for him this year. Doesn't mean he let himself or the team down. Not everybody sails smoothly through to their B.A. or B.S. But the coaching staff should have been on this to know if he was struggling, and with a fallback plan that would keep him eligible without compromising achedemic standards.
If he would have put academics first ahead of playing basketball and spent whatever time was necessary to study and to succeed in the classroom, he may have had to miss going to a few practices. It would have been better to get suspended from the team for a game or two for missing practices than to lose his eligibility to play basketball due to failing to meet a required minimum GPA.
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 01, 2018, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AM
I don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom? Given that Valpo doesn't have North Carolina type bunny classes that can keep a guy eligible if he can sign his name to a blank piece of paper. I mean a guy can be a great athlete but just not have it for a course.
I had one class my Sophmore year that just kicked my butt big time. I withdrew rather than fail and made some course adjustments the next semester that allowed me to go on and get my degree. How do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe? One course could have made all the difference for him this year. Doesn't mean he let himself or the team down. Not everybody sails smoothly through to their B.A. or B.S. But the coaching staff should have been on this to know if he was struggling, and with a fallback plan that would keep him eligible without compromising achedemic standards.
If he would have put academics first ahead of playing basketball and spent whatever time was necessary to study and to succeed in the classroom, he may have had to miss going to a few practices. It would have been better to get suspended from the team for a game or two for missing practices than to lose his eligibility to play basketball due to failing to meet a required minimum GPA.
I refuse to speculate. Until Valpo announces he is no longer with the team, I'm assuming he'll be back.
Quote from: EddieCabot on January 01, 2018, 06:41:05 PM
I refuse to speculate. Until Valpo announces he is no longer with the team, I'm assuming he'll be back.
Let's hope the University makes an announcement on his status one way or another. If he's ineligible the rest of the season tell the fans. If he leaves the
university tell the fans (but I guess we'll figure that out sooner or later without them having to tell us). But if Joe is back and is just sitting on the bench game after game, it'd be appropriate to nip the speculation in the bud. You can probably say a player is ineligible the rest of the season without breaking FERPA laws.
I hope he has a chance to be back but we've had so much bad luck the last few years it's made me pessimistic.
Quote from: EddieCabot on January 01, 2018, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 01, 2018, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AM
I don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom? Given that Valpo doesn't have North Carolina type bunny classes that can keep a guy eligible if he can sign his name to a blank piece of paper. I mean a guy can be a great athlete but just not have it for a course.
I had one class my Sophmore year that just kicked my butt big time. I withdrew rather than fail and made some course adjustments the next semester that allowed me to go on and get my degree. How do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe? One course could have made all the difference for him this year. Doesn't mean he let himself or the team down. Not everybody sails smoothly through to their B.A. or B.S. But the coaching staff should have been on this to know if he was struggling, and with a fallback plan that would keep him eligible without compromising achedemic standards.
If he would have put academics first ahead of playing basketball and spent whatever time was necessary to study and to succeed in the classroom, he may have had to miss going to a few practices. It would have been better to get suspended from the team for a game or two for missing practices than to lose his eligibility to play basketball due to failing to meet a required minimum GPA.
I refuse to speculate. Until Valpo announces he is no longer with the team, I'm assuming he'll be back.
Was it speculation that he was suspended for academic reasons?
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 02, 2018, 06:03:18 AM
Quote from: EddieCabot on January 01, 2018, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 01, 2018, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AM
I don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom? Given that Valpo doesn't have North Carolina type bunny classes that can keep a guy eligible if he can sign his name to a blank piece of paper. I mean a guy can be a great athlete but just not have it for a course.
I had one class my Sophmore year that just kicked my butt big time. I withdrew rather than fail and made some course adjustments the next semester that allowed me to go on and get my degree. How do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe? One course could have made all the difference for him this year. Doesn't mean he let himself or the team down. Not everybody sails smoothly through to their B.A. or B.S. But the coaching staff should have been on this to know if he was struggling, and with a fallback plan that would keep him eligible without compromising achedemic standards.
If he would have put academics first ahead of playing basketball and spent whatever time was necessary to study and to succeed in the classroom, he may have had to miss going to a few practices. It would have been better to get suspended from the team for a game or two for missing practices than to lose his eligibility to play basketball due to failing to meet a required minimum GPA.
I refuse to speculate. Until Valpo announces he is no longer with the team, I'm assuming he'll be back.
Was it speculation that he was suspended for academic reasons?
No, as that's what the press release said. My comment was related to if/when he might be rejoining the team. (Guess I shouldn't have quoted your comment. :-[)
Quote from: EddieCabot on January 01, 2018, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 01, 2018, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AM
I don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom? Given that Valpo doesn't have North Carolina type bunny classes that can keep a guy eligible if he can sign his name to a blank piece of paper. I mean a guy can be a great athlete but just not have it for a course.
I had one class my Sophmore year that just kicked my butt big time. I withdrew rather than fail and made some course adjustments the next semester that allowed me to go on and get my degree. How do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe? One course could have made all the difference for him this year. Doesn't mean he let himself or the team down. Not everybody sails smoothly through to their B.A. or B.S. But the coaching staff should have been on this to know if he was struggling, and with a fallback plan that would keep him eligible without compromising achedemic standards.
If he would have put academics first ahead of playing basketball and spent whatever time was necessary to study and to succeed in the classroom, he may have had to miss going to a few practices. It would have been better to get suspended from the team for a game or two for missing practices than to lose his eligibility to play basketball due to failing to meet a required minimum GPA.
I refuse to speculate. Until Valpo announces he is no longer with the team, I'm assuming he'll be back.
To your point, if he's gone and not coming back, there are much clearer terms than "suspended." "Dismissed from the team" or "dismissed by the university," or "withdrew from classes" leave no doubt that it's permanent. "Suspended" sounds anything but permanent.
Quote from: wh on January 02, 2018, 11:30:07 AM
Quote from: EddieCabot on January 01, 2018, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 01, 2018, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AM
I don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom? Given that Valpo doesn't have North Carolina type bunny classes that can keep a guy eligible if he can sign his name to a blank piece of paper. I mean a guy can be a great athlete but just not have it for a course.
I had one class my Sophmore year that just kicked my butt big time. I withdrew rather than fail and made some course adjustments the next semester that allowed me to go on and get my degree. How do we know something like that didn't happen to Joe? One course could have made all the difference for him this year. Doesn't mean he let himself or the team down. Not everybody sails smoothly through to their B.A. or B.S. But the coaching staff should have been on this to know if he was struggling, and with a fallback plan that would keep him eligible without compromising achedemic standards.
If he would have put academics first ahead of playing basketball and spent whatever time was necessary to study and to succeed in the classroom, he may have had to miss going to a few practices. It would have been better to get suspended from the team for a game or two for missing practices than to lose his eligibility to play basketball due to failing to meet a required minimum GPA.
I refuse to speculate. Until Valpo announces he is no longer with the team, I'm assuming he'll be back.
To your point, if he's gone and not coming back, there are much clearer terms than "suspended." "Dismissed from the team" or "dismissed by the university," or "withdrew from classes" leave no doubt that it's permanent. "Suspended" sounds anything but permanent.
Nobody knows the specifics about this situation. However, technically the word "suspended" may be the best term at this point. Whatever Burton's academic problem was when grades were submitted for fall semester, even if he were placed on probation, he should have already enrolled for spring courses back in November like all other students. Therefore, should he consider his options and wish to continue his education at Valpo, he need only show up on the first day of classes and, if on probation, attend under a structure of guidelines and with expectations set forth for him by the Dean's office. If Burton does not show up for classes on January 10, then the term can be changed from "suspended."
Paul was on the 'The Journal Star Sportswriters' podcast and mentioned Joe Burton has an appeal coming up but it's pretty much a Hail Mary. Sounds like we will hear something pretty soon here.
http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20180102/listen-valley-views-with-valparaiso-beat-reporter-paul-oren
Quote from: VU2014 on January 03, 2018, 09:20:46 AM
Paul was on the 'The Journal Star Sportswriters' podcast and mentioned Joe Burton has an appeal coming up but it's pretty much a Hail Mary. Sounds like we will hear something pretty soon here.
http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20180102/listen-valley-views-with-valparaiso-beat-reporter-paul-oren (http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20180102/listen-valley-views-with-valparaiso-beat-reporter-paul-oren)
The following is just to offer information about the academic appeal process, not to be taken as specific to Burton. According to university rules, the first step in any appeal of a grade must be done informally between a student (with assistance from an academic advisor) and the faculty member before the end of the first full week of classes in the following semester. Usually, it can be done more quickly if the student and faculty member are available on campus. However, for a grade change or an incomplete to be given, the faculty member must be persuaded to "acknowledge an error, a misjudgment, or unfair bias has occurred." If no resolution satisfactory to the student happens at this point, there are other higher formal appeals allowed, but in almost all cases I believe the decision in this stage is upheld, and most situations are resolved through such student-faculty-advisor conversations. Again, this is just to provide general information about the academic appeal process.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Quote from: M on January 03, 2018, 09:32:26 AM
So a newspaper in Peoria gets more info from our beat writer then we've been given. Nice.
So someone who is supposedly one of us leaves the program's most ardent followers and passionate fans clueless as to what's going on, while we fret, worry, wonder and speculate for days/weeks on end. Suddenly out of the blue, that same someone publicly shares information pertinent to the situation with a complete outsider? Maybe that someone would care to explain.
Quote from: wh on January 03, 2018, 12:26:23 PMSo someone who is supposedly one of us leaves the program's most ardent followers and passionate fans clueless as to what's going on, while we fret, worry, wonder and speculate for days/weeks on end. Suddenly out of the blue, that same someone publicly shares information pertinent to the situation with a complete outsider? Maybe that someone would care to explain.
That someone has been waylaid by an upper respiratory infection and bronchitis the last week. I barely remember anything about the Missouri State game and I was in bed during the podcast interview I did. In other news, drugs are good!
From what I understand Burton is in the process of an appeal. What he is appealing, I have no idea. It's a pretty fine line for me to discuss anything open to academics given the two jobs I have. I've kicked quite a few tires at the NCAA level trying to figure out the reason why Adekoya could sit on the bench and Burton needs to be away from the team. Given the holiday week, I'm not surprised I haven't received any answers. I also haven't been as proactive in tracking them down, because, you know, upper respiratory infection. Valparaiso can provide no comment on this whole thing. It's been stressed to the reporters that Lottich won't (or can't) answer questions pertaining to Burton's situation. I suspect more will (or at least should) be known by the time Valparaiso hosts Southern Illinois on Saturday.
Man this rough stretch with the team has made everyone testy (including myself sometimes). Let's cut Paul some slack. He was(is) sick, had a broken car wheel or something (mentioned it on the podcast), and he's on his winter break.
He's been on top of every story with this team and there have been a LOT that's happened to this program the last 20-24 months or so. We're lucky to have a dedicated beat reporter like Paul covering our team and also puts out a weekly podcast.
General question for Paul or anyone else who may know the answer. In the situations involving Burton this year and Adekoya last year, it seems that the university is unable to provide anything other than very vague explanations, citing privacy laws. In fact, unless I missed something somewhere, most of us still don't know the underlying cause of the Adekoya eligibility issue. Was it something he did? Was it a compliance/paperwork issue? Was the NCAA just on a witchhunt? I really have no idea. I'm not saying I have a right to know, but the lack of information certainly leads to a lot of speculation on the part of fans.
So my question is how these situations are different from the Jalen Hayes suspension issue a few months ago at Oakland? In that situation, it felt like every minor detail (individual class grades, his cumulative GPA, his major and expected graduation date) of his academic record was being discussed by Hayes, the university, the staff and national media. Is this because Hayes somehow waived his privacy rights in order to get his story out and put some pressure on the NCAA?
If your interested in Paul's thoughts on the Joe situation, I'm just going to leave this here. He said he'd be shocked if Joe ever played another game in a Valpo Uniform. :(
http://www.nwitimes.com/digital/audio/union-street-hoops/podcast-union-street-hoops-valpo-in-the-valley/audio_330854a0-f25d-11e7-8289-e74843b07c14.html
So Joe becomes this decade's Tony Falu.
Quote from: nkvu on January 01, 2018, 01:31:46 AM
I don't quite get this. A guy transfers to Valpo. He sits out a year and apparently makes enough grades to complete the transfer year. Then in his first semester playing he can't make grades? Were the coaches not on top of this? Did he just not do the work and somehow the coaches didn't know? Or was he simply not able to hack it in the classroom?
As I outlined back in
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=3050.msg92803#msg92803
it's a process.
Normally it takes at least two semesters of poor performance to receive an academic suspension. So, there's time to recover. Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen.
For students appealing academic suspensions from the College of Arts and Sciences the appeals meeting is normally the week before classes resume i.e. the week now ending. Students should probably now have been informed of the results.
I don't think the university's been specific about Joe's situation - maybe they're not allowed to be. But, their phrasing brings to mind the process that I outlined in the link above.
valpopal outlined another possible line of appeal, for individual course grades.
A student can presumably make any announcement they like about their own status. Other than that, I don't know if we should expect much. Maybe he's seen on the bench (or on the court, I guess!), or at games. Maybe he's seen at practice or on campus. Maybe he's not. I think universities do sometimes confirm whether or not a person is a student of said university, but I'm not even entirely sure about that.
Quote from: EddieCabot on January 03, 2018, 02:16:21 PM
General question for Paul or anyone else who may know the answer. In the situations involving Burton this year and Adekoya last year, it seems that the university is unable to provide anything other than very vague explanations, citing privacy laws. In fact, unless I missed something somewhere, most of us still don't know the underlying cause of the Adekoya eligibility issue. Was it something he did? Was it a compliance/paperwork issue? Was the NCAA just on a witchhunt? I really have no idea. I'm not saying I have a right to know, but the lack of information certainly leads to a lot of speculation on the part of fans.
So my question is how these situations are different from the Jalen Hayes suspension issue a few months ago at Oakland? In that situation, it felt like every minor detail (individual class grades, his cumulative GPA, his major and expected graduation date) of his academic record was being discussed by Hayes, the university, the staff and national media. Is this because Hayes somehow waived his privacy rights in order to get his story out and put some pressure on the NCAA?
That's an interesting set of questions. I've not followed Hayes' cae, but I'm surprised to hear that Oakland provided so much detail. _Hayes_ can provide those kind of details. But, without him signing some kind of release I wouldn't expect anyone else to dish like that.
The lack of info on Adekoya's case did undoubtedly lead to a lot speculation on the part of the fans. I think a rough sketch, sort of a consensus story, became pretty clear on this message board. I don't think the university ever gave any details. I don't know that Jubril has either.
It seems
https://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/pdf/ferpafaq.pdf
that universities are allowed to give out info like dates of attendance (presumably that includes the info about whether someone is/isn't enrolled) and "participation in officially recognized activities and sports".
That sounds about like what Valpo provides, albeit they're not always very timely about it. We've certainly seen student athletes disappear for stretches as long as a semester, maybe longer, with only a quiet announcement at the end, with few details.
two points
1) why are we assuming that he DIDN'T have academic issues last year - since he was sitting out for transfer, how would we know that he met eligibility grades last year.
2) it's not a large campus and these guys hang out together - surely when classes get going here, it's going to be pretty obvious if he's not around campus with the team....
Unfortunately, Joe has lost his appeal and as of yesterday will not be coming back to Valpo as a player or as a student. He will now try to make it in the Houton Rockets organization.
That's too bad. Good luck to him in his future endeavors.
That opens up his scholarship right?
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 06, 2018, 10:10:59 PM
That opens up his scholarship right?
Yep. It opens up a scholarship for the Fall of 2018 class. We can't take on a mid-season recruit unless he pays his own way for 1 semester (unlikely) without an athletics scholarship.
We now have 2 scholarships for the class of 2018.
If that scholarship is available next fall, might there be a p5 graduate transfer out there like Boggs who, looking for some pt in 2018/19, might provide some senior type leadership as well as knock down some 3s. Thinking of a 6'5 type 3. A change of pace from the more athletic Golder and another shooter to complement Fazekus? It would need to be someone special to fill a particular role.
Quote from: nkvu on January 07, 2018, 12:48:40 AM
If that scholarship is available next fall, might there be a p5 graduate transfer out there like Boggs who, looking for some pt in 2018/19, might provide some senior type leadership as well as knock down some 3s. Thinking of a 6'5 type 3. A change of pace from the more athletic Golder and another shooter to complement Fazekus? It would need to be someone special to fill a particular role.
Ideally I'd like us to land the highest ceiling 2/3 red-shirt talent possible. It's going to be tough to land talent of Joe Burton's caliber (Top 100 player coming out of high school). The other scholarship maybe go for the best grad transfer fit possible to provide leadership and who also can fill hole at a inexperienced position like Power Forward. If the coaches think Mileek/Parker can't take that next step by next season then that might be the way to go, because you'd only be committed to a guy for 1 season and it would be a shorter term fix. Or maybe we hold onto it to land the best mid-season transfer possible, which could land us a high ceiling kid who is looking for a better situation.
I just don't see us signing a freshman with one of the now 2 open scholarships, because its pretty late in the recruiting game to land a high level kid.
I just don't see us using a scholarship on a 4 next year. Fazekus should get most of those minutes with Hazen, McMillan and even Linssen competing for minutes behind him, assuming one or more don't transfer. To me, the 3 will be the place where some bodies will be needed next year. A healthy Boggs type grad transfer would be a perfect fit in my humble opinion.
Quote from: valpo tundra on January 06, 2018, 09:37:53 PM
Unfortunately, Joe has lost his appeal and as of yesterday will not be coming back to Valpo as a player or as a student. He will now try to make it in the Houton Rockets organization.
Not that I'd be surprised with this outcome. But am I missing something?
Who is Valpo Tundra to know such things?
Quote from: nkvu on January 07, 2018, 01:55:00 AM
I just don't see us using a scholarship on a 4 next year. Fazekus should get most of those minutes with Hazen, McMillan and even Linssen competing for minutes behind him, assuming one or more don't transfer. To me, the 3 will be the place where some bodies will be needed next year. A healthy Boggs type grad transfer would be a perfect fit in my humble opinion.
With the only two guys graduating both being shooting guards, we need to add another guard to protect against injuries etc.
Quote from: valpotx on December 20, 2017, 11:52:37 PM
Yes, it was a 4.0 when I was in school, so 1.8 is essentially a high C-.
A high C-....? That's funny, I don't know why but that's just funny.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Had to be the most Ben Boggs has been mentioned in a post.
We absolutely need a stand still knock em dead G with (1) scholarship for next year. Get us 2 makes a game @ 45%. Seth Colclasure Type.
Just a thought, take a developmental Center with the last slot. It took Vashil 2+ years to contribute.
Sorolla = 2 years left
Smits = 2 years left
Linssen = 3 years left
I'd prefer to see Marty play the 4 and develop a 15-ft jumper. He has a nice touch.
But the quality of centers that we can get take multiple years to develop. Is this the time?
I'd argue that we have ZERO projects on our team currently. McMillan is ahead of the curve from my expectations. Linssen is my favorite surprise!!! And Parker is not a project despite his confidence. He can play at this level once the game slows up for him mentally. I think Parker has a high upside personally. He could be an outstanding defender and rebounder that contributes 8 ppg by Jr year. Maybe a Tevonn on the defensive/effort.
Quote from: M on January 07, 2018, 09:44:10 AM
Had to be the most Ben Boggs has been mentioned in a post.
Too true. The guy just stuck in my brain ever since the Michigan State NCAA tournament game where he came off the bench in the last few minutes and started knocking down threes. Made the final score semi respectable instead of the beat down it really was. I remember one of the tv announcers saying that he wondered where this guy had been the rest of the game. I think he had some health issues that limited how much he could contribute that year. Too bad.
Ben Boggs sent me a LinkedIn invite the other day. It looks like he is working at Valpo in alumni relations?
Joe Burton will not catch on with the NBA. If what Valpo Tundra is saying is true, he just needs to go directly to Europe. However, he should have finished his degree, and if he withdraws, I don't believe that Valpo would have to honor a scholarship for him to complete his degree at some point.
Was it Burton that received Skara's scholarship? We originally thought that was a great trade-off, but looking back, we could have used Skara last year when Jubril and then Alec went down. We didn't have anyone to step in when that happened. Now, we could use him with Joe out. Seems like it was lose-lose for David and Valpo, although Skara is at least on a top team (14-1; 3-0). He isn't doing much for them, other than taking up minutes, however:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3133922/david-skara
Quote from: valpotx on January 07, 2018, 01:23:38 PM
Was it Burton that received Skara's scholarship? We originally thought that was a great trade-off, but looking back, we could have used Skara last year when Jubril and then Alec went down. We didn't have anyone to step in when that happened. Now, we could use him with Joe out. Seems like it was lose-lose for David and Valpo, although Skara is at least on a top team (14-1; 3-0). He isn't doing much for them, other than taking up minutes, however:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3133922/david-skara
Losing Skara was a big blow. Last year we definitely could have used him and this season as well. He's a good player BUT if it meant we getting blackmailed to hire that scumbag Maravilla's guy (who ironically is a Valpo bball alum) as an assistant I'm ok with not having David on this team. I still feel awful how David was treated like a piece meat by that guy and was forced to transfer even though he didn't want leave VU to at the time.
Matt Lottich to Dave Maravilla lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLo-NZBLkr8
Ben does work in advancement and is doing a pretty good job! Probably helps when everyone knows who you are.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 07, 2018, 02:10:24 PM
Quote from: valpotx on January 07, 2018, 01:23:38 PM
Was it Burton that received Skara's scholarship? We originally thought that was a great trade-off, but looking back, we could have used Skara last year when Jubril and then Alec went down. We didn't have anyone to step in when that happened. Now, we could use him with Joe out. Seems like it was lose-lose for David and Valpo, although Skara is at least on a top team (14-1; 3-0). He isn't doing much for them, other than taking up minutes, however:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3133922/david-skara
.
Losing Skara was a big blow. Last year we definitely could have used him and this season as well. He's a good player BUT if it meant we getting blackmailed to hire that scumbag Maravilla's guy (who ironically is a Valpo bball alum) as an assistant I'm ok with not having David on this team. I still feel awful how David was treated like a piece meat by that guy and was forced to transfer even though he didn't want leave VU to at the time.
Matt Lottich to Dave Maravilla lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLo-NZBLkr8
If memory serves, David would have sat with Jubril last year. Wasn't he the "other one" involved in that fiasco? He was suspended X games (10?) at Wake this season as a part of that. But he'd be on the floor this year for us had he not xferred
His suspension was 8 games. He's at Clemson not wake.
Correct, my bad. But my point stands.
So Skara's suspension at Clemson was related to an academic matter here? I missed that. That makes 4 players in 3 years then. At what point is this systemic?
Edit: I See this is being addressed in another thread. Worth the discussion, however.
Okay, we are not Notre Dame.....But Notre Dame football program has publicly said they are at a competitive disadvantage on the field because they cannot recruit athletes without the academics.
Is that Valpo to an extent?
Another question.......Was Burton ineligible based on NCAA rules or University rules?
And there it is, Joe Burton is no longer enrolled at Valparaiso University. It's sad it didn't work out but I wish Joe nothing but the best. He seemed like a good kid.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950405973973364737
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950406673188966400
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/950406965469089792
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/950407181442134017
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 08, 2018, 09:10:17 AMAnother question.......Was Burton ineligible based on NCAA rules or University rules?
From what I remember of the NCAA rules, as described in the VU student athlete handbook, I don't think they have a mechanism for removing you from school. Wouldn't make sense really, right? They just govern athletics - they determine which students are eligible to compete. The university rules govern who's eligible to take classes i.e. who's a student.
So, he was suspended by the university.
Best of luck to him: at another university, maybe playing ball in Europe, or, who knows, maybe back at Valpo some day.
Quote from: agibson on January 08, 2018, 10:52:58 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 08, 2018, 09:10:17 AMAnother question.......Was Burton ineligible based on NCAA rules or University rules?
From what I remember of the NCAA rules, as described in the VU student athlete handbook, I don't think they have a mechanism for removing you from school. Wouldn't make sense really, right? They just govern athletics - they determine which students are eligible to compete. The university rules govern who's eligible to take classes i.e. who's a student.
So, he was suspended by the university.
Best of luck to him: at another university, maybe playing ball in Europe, or, who knows, maybe back at Valpo some day.
Hmmmm, could he take a course or two this semester at a JC to compensate for the deficiency and then re-enroll in the fall?
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on January 08, 2018, 06:51:49 AM
So Skara's suspension at Clemson was related to an academic matter here? I missed that. That makes 4 players in 3 years then. At what point is this systemic?
Edit: I See this is being addressed in another thread. Worth the discussion, however.
Who is the 4th player you speak of? I know Skara, Adekoya and Burton.
Maybe this has been answered.
Paul, do we know if that scholarship is unavailable until next season? Or do we now have a scholarship for mid-season transfers?
I would think there is no scholarship for a mid season transfer unless they were to enroll Today. The Beginning of the semester.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 08, 2018, 12:09:01 PM
Paul, do we know if that scholarship is unavailable until next season? Or do we now have a scholarship for mid-season transfers?
We no scholarships available for this semester. The now 2 available scholarships can only be use for next season. Any mid-season transfers for next semester would have to pay their own way 1 semester if they wanted to join the Valpo Team.
I don't think we'll be taking on any mid-season transfers this season. Tom Wilson almost chose Valpo (without a scholie) over Boise State (with a scholie) last year. Tom Wilson took a visit basically on January 1 and committed to BSU on Jan 8 last season. I haven't heard about anyone taking a visit. Seems doubtful.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/817938846298112000
OKmick - far from true about ND. Their players have significantly lower academic standards than the average ND student. No player on that team would get accepted as a regular student. Even Brain Kelly has mentioned that. Same goes for USC.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 08, 2018, 01:16:24 PM
OKmick - far from true about ND. Their players have significantly lower academic standards than the average ND student. No player on that team would get accepted as a regular student. Even Brain Kelly has mentioned that. Same goes for USC.
I took the ND case to be that they needed to recruit players who were book-smart enough to _pass ND classes_. That standards in classes were high and there wasn't any golden ticket (a la UNC) for athletes. I don't know how the level of rigor is at ND vs. Valpo as a function of department, etc. but I guess that's approximately the situation Valpo is in. Maybe it's not that different at e.g. Bradley, Drake, Butler, Evansville. (And maybe some of those are closer to Valpo than ND is; I really don't know for sure.)
I think at almost any school factors other than just GPA and test scores are a part of the admissions process. If you bring something special to the table (e.g. you're a star piccolo player and the orchestra just graduated theirs, or a running back, or a first generation college student, or a member of some other under-presented minority group, etc.) then you might be more attractive than some other more typical student with the same GPA and test scores.
I'm sure there's some minimum bar for admission. And maybe that's higher some places (Stanford? Cal? Notre Dame?) than others. But I'm sure the "usual minimum" is lower for athletes at many schools than it is for "vanilla" students. And I'm guessing the practical limit some places (including VU, perhaps) is recruiting students that will be able to make their grades, rather than some admission standard, while dealing with the rigorous schedule of a student athlete.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 08, 2018, 01:11:13 PMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on Today at 12:09:01 PM
Paul, do we know if that scholarship is unavailable until next season? Or do we now have a scholarship for mid-season transfers?
We no scholarships available for this semester. The now 2 available scholarships can only be use for next season.
Is that just the normal rule for scholarships? If you give it out in the fall, it's gone for the year? Even if the student leaves in the second week of classes, or at the semester break, etc?
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 08, 2018, 11:52:02 AM
Quote from: agibson on January 08, 2018, 10:52:58 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 08, 2018, 09:10:17 AMAnother question.......Was Burton ineligible based on NCAA rules or University rules?
From what I remember of the NCAA rules, as described in the VU student athlete handbook, I don't think they have a mechanism for removing you from school. Wouldn't make sense really, right? They just govern athletics - they determine which students are eligible to compete. The university rules govern who's eligible to take classes i.e. who's a student.
So, he was suspended by the university.
Best of luck to him: at another university, maybe playing ball in Europe, or, who knows, maybe back at Valpo some day.
Hmmmm, could he take a course or two this semester at a JC to compensate for the deficiency and then re-enroll in the fall?
Assuming that we're talking about a regular academic suspension from the College of Arts and Sciences (and that's the only kind of suspension I know about for a student in that college) then it really is a suspension. Normally you're out for two semesters. It's not a matter of "get your transcript back up to some minimum and you're back in immediately". It has a little bit of the flavor of something like a suspension from high school, for places that may still do those. Go home and think about your errors for a week, then come back and re-engage. Except, at VU, you actually do need to apply for readmission. And, I think the normal expectation is that sometime during that year off you _would_ take some classes at a junior college, or similar, to demonstrate that you're capable of succeeding in college-level course work. Then you can be re-admitted and start taking classes again after your suspension. A student of mine (non-athlete) is successfully returning from a suspension under that plan this semester.
Presumably that path is open to Joe. I imagine he'd have a year, maybe even three semesters, of eligibility remaining (is it normally six years to use four year of eligibility?). I don't know for sure how this works with athletic scholarships, or NCAA regulations about making progress toward degree, etc.
Maybe it wouldn't be crazy for him to play at a JC somewhere for three semesters and come back to Valpo after that. Or, I guess, he might be able to start mid-year next season, January 2019 or so, at another NCAA D1 school after sitting out a year for the transfer. Or I guess he could hypothetically be playing in Europe (former Yugoslavia? 2nd or 3rd division in a more major country?) next week.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950477634466713602
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950477959563038721
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950478260051247109
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950478666911412232
FG05 - As I recall, Max was caught up in the Jubril thing as well, sat a couple games after admitting wrongdoing. If I'm wrong on that and that was another issue I apologize. With this team 12 months feels like 5 years ago.
I don't really put this on Lottich, Joe was a talent worth taking a chance on. But I think he needs to take extra care over the next year or two to avoid the academically borderline students, transfers in particular.
OKnick - at Duke, the average student SAT is a whooping 500 points higher than any player on the basketball team. I would bet the situation is similar at Notre Dame where they recruit the 4 and 5 star athletes. Stanford is in a similar situation as ND, but their academics standards are higher. As for Cal, they are like North Carolina, Michigan or Illinois - the difference in test scores between the average student and athlete is quite significant.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on January 09, 2018, 07:17:17 AM
FG05 - As I recall, Max was caught up in the Jubril thing as well, sat a couple games after admitting wrongdoing. If I'm wrong on that and that was another issue I apologize. With this team 12 months feels like 5 years ago.
I don't really put this on Lottich, Joe was a talent worth taking a chance on. But I think he needs to take extra care over the next year or two to avoid the academically borderline students, transfers in particular.
I don't remember Max ever sitting out a game in civies over that. He might not have played (Coach's Decision) but was in uniform and was available. Then again this memoy thing ....... :crazy:
Agreed with the bold statement.
Max and Jubril both sat out for the first time at Missouri State. Max was back the very next game. Guessing both were accused, they looked into it, and found no wrongdoing by Max.
I don't believe Max was caught up in the Jubril thing. It was speculated he was because when Jubril was suspended or ruled ineligible we heard 2 players were involved and everyone assumed Max was the other player because he was suspended for 1 game but we later found out David Skara was the other player.
It should be emphasized these are two very different situations. Joe's suspension was purely academic performance.
It is what it is. Coaches can't do the homework and study for kids. And YES the coaches are on top of kids. The coaches get academic progress reports from professors through out the semester. Basketball players also have mandatory study hours in the library (at least they did under Bryce, I'm assuming they still do). The athletes also have free tutoring for pretty much every subject.
Let's not try and find ways to spin this on the coaching staff. They took a chance a talented and good kid who had some academic problems at his previous stop. It sounds like they started to get straightened out during his red-shirt year but they returned this semester, when he got busier with the season. It sucks that it happened but this is more of a outlier at Valpo. I don't see it as "systemic".
Let's look to the future.
If what you state is accurate, 14, then this issue is water under the bridge for me and we move on. No more :deadhorse: Couldn't ask any more of our MBB program.
Osipoff summarizes things pretty well in a piece posted last night, and ahead of Wednesday's game
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/sports/ct-ptb-mens-basketball-valparaiso-joe-burton-st-0109-20180108-story.html
Second-leading scorer Joe Burton no longer at Valparaiso due to academic issues
By Michael Osipoff
Post-Tribune
It includes some quotes from teammates responding to the situation.
In the "looking forward" department it includes
Quote
Without Burton, Valparaiso has a second scholarship available for next season.
"You look at our roster, we have guys who are bigger," Lottich said. "We want to have people who can dribble, shoot and pass."
Look, without speculating on this individual situation, all I know is that many more academically prestigious schools than Valpo manage to keep all their guys eligible, even on the players who are considered "chances." So yes, given how critical Joe was seen to this year's team and that this issue was not unknown, anything short of an all-hands-on-deck effort to keep him above water academically falls at least partially on the program/university. That's just reality if we want to be competitive in this sport.
In reference to our player's quotes, they need not only worry about holding each other accountable ON the court, but also OFF the court. This is all on Joe. I don't think that they should be playing FOR Joe at all. He did this to himself. If you got caught up in an academic matter, regardless of what it was, you have no one else to blame, but yourself.
Enough is enough!! He is gone! Let's move on!
Quote from: vusupporter on January 09, 2018, 10:19:33 AM
Max and Jubril both sat out for the first time at Missouri State. Max was back the very next game. Guessing both were accused, they looked into it, and found no wrongdoing by Max.
That's how I remember it too. The feeling on the board was that Max was wrongfully accessed and that Adekoya admitted to it.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on January 09, 2018, 11:31:24 AMLook, without speculating on this individual situation, all I know is that many more academically prestigious schools than Valpo manage to keep all their guys eligible, even on the players who are considered "chances."
I don't consider it at all common at Valpo, or in Valpo basketball. Some other institutions, I really don't know how many, not sure if it's at the few percent level or more like the 50% level, have less than savory methods for making sure that their "most important" athletes stay eligible.
We happen to have had two incidents in two years on one prominent team. One of those seems to have been a cheating issue. The other seems to be about making grades, and maybe with some special circumstances. I don't remember any others in VU basketball... maybe not in the 20 years I've been following the team?
I stand corrected. We can replace Joe with a mid-season transfer. Credit Paul for looking up the new rule. My apologies.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950805765522120704
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950806425672011781
Hasn't the semester started? Have we had dialogues with such possible players? They don't grow on trees.
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 09, 2018, 01:16:26 PM
Hasn't the semester started? Have we had dialogues with such possible players? They don't grow on trees.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950810504003510273
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 09, 2018, 01:16:26 PM
Hasn't the semester started? Have we had dialogues with such possible players? They don't grow on trees.
Classes start tomorrow. You could probably enroll within the first week or so without too much pain.
I can't imagine how that would work mid-season. I'd think it'd almost have to be a kid sitting out somewhere - but is still eligible - or a juco (unless you could find a quality D-2 or D-3 guy looking to make a move up for their final season, a la Max Strus, who transferred to DePaul from Lewis for his final year and is competing well in the Big East).
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on January 09, 2018, 11:31:24 AM
Look, without speculating on this individual situation, all I know is that many more academically prestigious schools than Valpo manage to keep all their guys eligible, even on the players who are considered "chances." So yes, given how critical Joe was seen to this year's team and that this issue was not unknown, anything short of an all-hands-on-deck effort to keep him above water academically falls at least partially on the program/university. That's just reality if we want to be competitive in this sport.
I'm sure the staff did all that they could. Ultimately it is Joe Burton's responsibility, and his alone to succeed academically. Perhaps he just wasn't cut out to be a student at a university.
Quote from: valpo64 on January 09, 2018, 12:44:20 PM
Enough is enough!! He is gone! Let's move on!
Maybe we should start a new thread about filling the now available scholarship and this thread about "you-know-who" getting himself suspended academically, leaving school and returning to Texas, could be closed.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/951252065984110593
NWIU NOTES: Burton's exit brings back memories of former Valparaiso washout Tony Falu
By Paul Oren Times Correspondent 8 min ago
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/college/nwiu-notes-burton-s-exit-brings-back-memories-of-former/article_f9241807-b7eb-5748-aa54-662729bc4d24.html
Agree with Paul that there are some similarities between Tony and Joe. Tony, however, had not spent a year at Valpo and been part of the team in practices. That may be part of the reason for the let down (plus Tevonn's mono). Falu was perceived to be a high risk recruit coming in. We had not heard that Joe had had many issues and that he was a similar transfer to others we have had over time, like Bakari. Talent-wise, Falu could fill it up. The Arizona and Kansas games that year were both possible upsets because of Falu, and that team would have been dangerous in March had he been on it and his mind straight. There were some high risk recruits during that early 2000 era as Scott was a primary recruiter and scouring the globe for talent (Jimmy Miles and Oumar Sylla come to mind as well as the Puerto Rican recruits with the one assistant (name escapes me although I can picture him) -- Nieves, Falu, Ali). Falu had more of Rob Harden in him 8-)
http://m.kusports.com/news/2010/nov/15/valpo-coach-drew-fond-fieldhouse/
http://valpofans.proboards.com/thread/419 (http://valpofans.proboards.com/thread/419)
I will never forget the collapse of that sad 1983-1984 season with Rob Harden. He never attended classes and thought he was the savior to Valpo basketball, and unfortunately the coaching staff felt the same. Let's just say it was fortuitous that Homer Drew became head coach.
That season was such a waste. That really could have been the team that started to flip the script, as we had a lot of promising talent on that team along with Harden (John Meyne, Rick Pickren, Tony Asberry). That was the team that blew out a pretty good Bradley squad and was coming off a road win at Cleveland State when Rob decided to throw some f-bombs at the coaching staff during a frustrating home loss to Eastern Kentucky. Coach Smith suspended Harden after the game and the team unraveled pretty quickly (if I recall, we had another key player get hurt and miss the rest of the season a few games later and and Pickren left VU at the end of the semester).
That was the last year at Hilltop Gym, and with the ARC under construction, Smith was finding it easier to compete for good recruits. It felt like we were going to open the new arena with a lot of momentum.
(One angle related to this year's team: that was the last time we played Samford prior to this year. We lost by six in the holiday tourney at UAB).
Faluee!
I was a 12984 graduate, and I was at the last game at Hilltop in a win against a weak Butler team, and I thought Smith wanted to duke it out with Butler coach Joe Sexson, the refs and some of the Butler fans. That was an eerie game - the start of spring break, one dollar admission for fan appreciation day, no band and a lot of Valpo locals who probably bought season tickets because Harden. Smith was one interesting cat of a coach. That was a really pathetic, underachieving season.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 10, 2018, 06:41:32 PM
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/951252065984110593
NWIU NOTES: Burton's exit brings back memories of former Valparaiso washout Tony Falu
By Paul Oren Times Correspondent 8 min ago
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/college/nwiu-notes-burton-s-exit-brings-back-memories-of-former/article_f9241807-b7eb-5748-aa54-662729bc4d24.html
Falu after Valpo:
http://stmarytx_ftp.sidearmsports.com/custompages/stats/mbball/2002-03/teamhigh.htm
Did we just fill one of the open spots?
https://twitter.com/jbuckets25/status/996105425136312321?s=21
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: covufan on May 14, 2018, 04:51:09 PMDid we just fill one of the open spots? https://twitter.com/jbuckets25/status/996105425136312321?s=21 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I seriously doubt it, but verbal commits still lists him as an active scholarship while Parker and Marty are dropped.
I wouldn't take this guy back. He let down his teammates, the coaches, and the University, all of whom were counting on him. He had his chance here and he failed to take advantage.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on May 14, 2018, 07:47:34 PM
I wouldn't take this guy back. He let down his teammates, the coaches, and the University, all of whom were counting on him. He had his chance here and he failed to take advantage.
Paul
I don't completely agree with your conclusion but I am glad someone stepped forward to say what you did. He was a slight disappointment as a player, a big disappointment to the team, and a bust as a student. Still, if his grade issues were corrected a spot on the bench for him would be hard to deny.
Quote from: justducky on May 14, 2018, 08:02:20 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on May 14, 2018, 07:47:34 PM
I wouldn't take this guy back. He let down his teammates, the coaches, and the University, all of whom were counting on him. He had his chance here and he failed to take advantage.
Paul
I don't completely agree with your conclusion but I am glad someone stepped forward to say what you did. He was a slight disappointment as a player, a big disappointment to the team, and a bust as a student. Still, if his grade issues were corrected a spot on the bench for him would be hard to deny.
[/b]
Now that is funny! Look, we don't know what Joe's academic issues were nor do we understand whether or not he has a learning disability. We should know that being a D1 athlete, which combines the same academic issues that all students at Valpo have with a difficult training and travel schedule, can be very challenging. No doubt it was just as disappointing to Joe as it was to his teammates and us fans, some of which take pot shots without full knowledge of the issues at hand.
Even at Valpo, scholarship athletes are majoring in fairly low workload majors. However, I do think its great Valpo still has concerns about academic integrity with their athletes, unlike many Division 1 schools.
I'm not sure what to make of Burton's post, but if he were to return to Valparaiso, he would have an opportunity to turn a sour situation into one of redemption and reward. A successful comeback, on the court and in the classroom, would be welcomed by fans and serve to supply a compelling story for sportswriters. Done correctly, this could reflect well not only on Joe but also on the university for upholding academic standards yet at the same time offering a second chance with adequate guidance and academic advising eventually leading to a positive outcome. At least, that is the "glass half-full" version.
I think it's important to remember we don't know what happened specifically. It could have been he struggled in general and had little room for error and so one class tanked him. It could be he was ineligible by .1 of a GPA point. It could be that he has changed his major or had other issues with his semester of courses. It could also be that he was lazy, didn't work hard enough and let his team and himself down. BUT if he has shown remorse, improved work ethic and sufficient dedication I operate under the belief that we should provide him with a continued opportunity to both play again AND receive a degree from Valparaiso University. At the end of the day, struggling with classes is not the worst sin a college basketball player has committed and seems less worthy of cutting a guy loose than say, assault.
A young man is still trying to better his life, long after a lot of people would have stopped. We've all made mistakes when we were young (and still while im old!). Sure, he's a public face for the university and there's a higher standard to be upheld. I trust the coaching staff had these conversations with him, if he is coming back to valpo, and who are in a better situation to know what exactly happened. In any event, congrats to joe if he is still pursuing his college diploma.
(Off topic a bit, wouldn't he hurt our apr since he disqualified? By him returning to school, beyond other obvious benefits to him, wouldn't that help our apr too?)
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 15, 2018, 09:51:43 AM
Even at Valpo, scholarship athletes are majoring in fairly low workload majors. However, I do think its great Valpo still has concerns about academic integrity with their athletes, unlike many Division 1 schools.
Perhaps, but a quick look at last years roster shows the following majors: 1 Mechanical Engineering, 3 International Business, 1 Marketing with a Computer Science Minor, 1 Computer Science, 2 Sports Management, 2 Communication with a Business Minor, 1 Business Management, 1 Exercise Science and 1 Undecided.
Not a single Basket Weaving or anything prevalent among North Carolina basketball players.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 15, 2018, 10:31:28 AM
A young man is still trying to better his life, long after a lot of people would have stopped. We've all made mistakes when we were young (and still while im old!). Sure, he's a public face for the university and there's a higher standard to be upheld. I trust the coaching staff had these conversations with him, if he is coming back to valpo, and who are in a better situation to know what exactly happened. In any event, congrats to joe if he is still pursuing his college diploma.
(Off topic a bit, wouldn't he hurt our apr since he disqualified? By him returning to school, beyond other obvious benefits to him, wouldn't that help our apr too?)
Thought #1 - well said.
Thought #2 - excellent point.
QuoteI wouldn't take this guy back. He let down his teammates, the coaches, and the University, all of whom were counting on him. He had his chance here and he failed to take advantage.
Oh, god. Good to know you're perfect and never struggled with a class or professor during your college life. We don't know what went down here and neither do you, so perhaps dial back on the moralizing a bit.
If that tweet is legit I give Joe Burton a ton of credit for even persisting in his effort to get a VU degree and to keep a roster spot.
He could easily have dropped to a different level such as NAIA etc and tried to go the Scottie Pippen lower division route to a NBA tryout or Euro League job. Why mess with Valpo? I doubt that Valpo's scintillating campus life is a help.
This tweet tells me that somewhere there is a spark in him to reunite with his Valpo teammates who obviously liked him and a desire to earn a degree from a tough university. I can't criticize that. The coaches and VU officials will make a good decision.
I guess Jerry Tarkanian has been a great influence, which in these days is a good thing.
Tarkanian? I missed that one. :)
Is this related to Burton's tweet or to his well-wishes for Linssen? Everybody's being so cryptic. Are we about to get some big positive news?
https://twitter.com/TheReal_MG3/status/996530742611136513
There are a variety of very good points here regarding giving Burton a second chance, assuming that the basketball program and the university are OK with it. These are thoughtful and caring points. However, I would add the following requirement for Burton to come back:
Burton needs to address the entire university and Valpo basketball community. In his address, he must:
1. Specifically state what the issues were that caused him to be suspended.
2. Express honest and sincere remorse.
3. Explain what he has done to remedy the issues.
4. Explain what he intends to do going forward to prevent this from happening again.
A statement like this supports the integrity of the basketball program and the university. It would also show that Burton has grown from the experience.
However, given privacy laws regarding student information I am doubtful that this will even happen.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on May 15, 2018, 07:42:25 PM
Is this related to Burton's tweet or to his well-wishes for Linssen? Everybody's being so cryptic. Are we about to get some big positive news?
https://twitter.com/TheReal_MG3/status/996530742611136513
Nope. Probably has to do with this news. The VU coaches and players probably just heard the news...
https://twitter.com/Marcus_R_Fuller/status/996551141205954560
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 15, 2018, 07:57:29 PM
There are a variety of very good points here regarding giving Burton a second chance, assuming that the basketball program and the university are OK with it. These are thoughtful and caring points. However, I would add the following requirement for Burton to come back:
Burton needs to address the entire university and Valpo basketball community. In his address, he must:
1. Specifically state what the issues were that caused him to be suspended.
2. Express honest and sincere remorse.
3. Explain what he has done to remedy the issues.
4. Explain what he intends to do going forward to prevent this from happening again.
A statement like this supports the integrity of the basketball program and the university. It would also show that Burton has grown from the experience.
However, given privacy laws regarding student information I am doubtful that this will even happen.
You're absurd on every single point you make. I'm sorry, this is my emotional response but he doesn't owe you a darn thing unless you single handedly finance the VU basketball program.
I still like your morals, but wowza...
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 15, 2018, 07:57:29 PMBurton needs to address the entire university and Valpo basketball community. In his address, he must:
If he was kicked out for a criminal offense or something, maybe. If it was for not making the grades, and he was putting in a plausible effort, this seems more than a little far-fetched.
Quote from: agibson on May 15, 2018, 08:42:07 PMQuote from: vu84v2 on May 15, 2018, 07:57:29 PMBurton needs to address the entire university and Valpo basketball community. In his address, he must:
If he was kicked out for a criminal offense or something, maybe. If it was for not making the grades, and he was putting in a plausible effort, this seems more than a little far-fetched.
And more than a little insulting... And this is coming from someone who was extremely disappointed in him when this all happened last semester. I'd say his tweet if it leads to requalification and return is enough evidence of the remorse you seek.
I could see maybe Joe apologizing privately to his teammates and coaches when he initially found out he wouldn't be eligible, but not publicly to the University or the fans. It's unfortunate about his grades slipping but he doesn't owe us an apology. We (at least I) don't know enough to fully judge the situation. I've only heard anecdotal stuff. I think the fanbase would definitely welcome him back if he could get his academics straighten out.
There are many students, including some student-athletes, that have taken a semester away from studies to reflect or adjust their priorities, and come back ready to continue their goal of getting a degree. We don't know all of the circumstances, nor should we. As far as I can tell, Mr Burton has not asked for release from his NLI, asked to transfer to CC (or other), kept in BB condition, kept in contact with teammates via Twitter, and hasn't been on the police blotter in the last 5 months. If any other student left under similar circumstances, wouldn't they have been allowed one semester to right things prior to expulsion? Wouldn't that student also be given an opportunity after a semester away (to reflect and reprioritize)? If so, shouldn't we in the basketball fan community welcome said athlete/student back?
Only his teammates and coaches can answer the question of whether he personally let them down, and when they accept him back. This is about building and keeping trust, and an excellent learning and leadership opportunity for all concerned.
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I am also guarded in my optimism about Joe coming back and being able to perform academically. I do understand really well why someone would think that Joe has already been given an opportunity to compete on the MBB at Valpo and fulfill his academic requirements which he couldn't do. When so many others could fill that scholarship spot, which is a privilege to receive, and fulfill their academic requirements AND help the VUMBB perform to a higher level and not lose their spot. Joe lost his spot because he didn't do what others could have done for VU MBB, keep his spot on the team.
I chose to trust in the judgement of the Valpo coaches but Joe hasn't done anything to deserve a 2nd chance when others could have filled his spot and gotten a degree from Valpo and been an outstanding Christian citizen.
If Joe comes back plays for Valpo and completes his degree sometime in the future then I will feel good that we let him get a Valpo education and that Joe helped the team. But I will always remember he took a spot from another student who could have completed obligations Joe did NOT.
Wait.
Maybe we took a talented an academically borderline transfer and hoped it would work out. It looked good at first, but stuff happens. Not the result we were hoping for. But the kid dosen't lose sight of what he wants. He tries hard and gets academically eligible so he can rejoin teammates he has bonded with and a school he enjoys.
Why deny him or cast a cloud over this? This could be a classic story of "there are no coincidences." If he, indeed, comes back, what greater measure is there of a commitment to Valpo?
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 15, 2018, 08:25:33 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 15, 2018, 07:57:29 PM
There are a variety of very good points here regarding giving Burton a second chance, assuming that the basketball program and the university are OK with it. These are thoughtful and caring points. However, I would add the following requirement for Burton to come back:
Burton needs to address the entire university and Valpo basketball community. In his address, he must:
1. Specifically state what the issues were that caused him to be suspended.
2. Express honest and sincere remorse.
3. Explain what he has done to remedy the issues.
4. Explain what he intends to do going forward to prevent this from happening again.
A statement like this supports the integrity of the basketball program and the university. It would also show that Burton has grown from the experience.
However, given privacy laws regarding student information I am doubtful that this will even happen.
You're absurd on every single point you make. I'm sorry, this is my emotional response but he doesn't owe you a darn thing unless you single handedly finance the VU basketball program.
I still like your morals, but wowza...
He does not own me a darn thing...but if he were to come back he owes it to the university and the basketball program. Each of these points could be made in one or two sentences. I am all for a second chance, and this would be the best example of what a man with character would do.
Some more disappointing news. It sounds like a Burton reunion is very unlikely. Not too surprising, but all the speculation the last couple days got my hopes up that there was a glimmer of hope. I hope Joe lands a opportunity somewhere.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/996761376872894464
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26xButH723no5uCZ2/giphy.gif)
(insert sad trombone sound)
(http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-things-end-people-leave-and-you-know-what-life-goes-on-besides-if-bad-things-didn-t-elizabeth-scott-42-16-17.jpg)
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/270/059/956.png)
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 15, 2018, 07:57:29 PMThere are a variety of very good points here regarding giving Burton a second chance, assuming that the basketball program and the university are OK with it. These are thoughtful and caring points. However, I would add the following requirement for Burton to come back: Burton needs to address the entire university and Valpo basketball community. In his address, he must: 1. Specifically state what the issues were that caused him to be suspended. 2. Express honest and sincere remorse. 3. Explain what he has done to remedy the issues. 4. Explain what he intends to do going forward to prevent this from happening again. A statement like this supports the integrity of the basketball program and the university. It would also show that Burton has grown from the experience. However, given privacy laws regarding student information I am doubtful that this will even happen.
This is complete nonsense. If he's deemed eligible to play and reinstated, he should show up and play. He doesn't owe a public explanation to anyone.