Ok I'll give this game thread startup another trial. These kids desperately need to regain their confidence.
Bradley just beat UNI by 19 at UNI. Not much possibility for a win here:
Bradley 76
Valpo 58
Wardle teams have a history of choking away games to Valpo.
Valpo 67-64 winners.
Quote from: valpotx on December 31, 2017, 11:25:42 PM
Bradley just beat UNI by 19 at UNI. Not much possibility for a win here:
Bradley 76
Valpo 58
Wait, Bradley beat UNI... UNI beat NC State... NC State beat #2 Arizona. That means Bradley should be #1! Bradley 85, Valpo 31.
Peoria, Ill. – In a matchup of two of the nation's top defenses, the Bradley basketball team coupled its usual defensive effort to go with hot 3-point shooting to run past visiting Northern Iowa on Sunday afternoon, 72-53. The Braves improved to 11-4 on the season and 1-1 in Missouri Valley Conference action, while the Panthers slip to 8-6 and 0-2 in league play.
Sophomore Darrell Brown scored a season-best 24 points to lead the Braves to victory, making 8-of-15 shots and 5-of-8 3-pointers along with a game-high five assists. The point guard keyed the victory by scoring 11 points during a 22-3 second-half run, securing Bradley its first conference win of the season.
Classmate Nate Kennell chipped in 14 points and seven rebounds, while senior Donte Thomas collected a game-high 10 rebounds. Sophomore Jayden Hodgson matched Brown with a season-best five assists in the winning effort.
The Braves led for nearly the entire first half before a late UNI surge gave the visitors the halftime edge. Brown opened the scoring for BU with a 3-pointer on the team's first possession and Bradley led by as many as six points before the first media timeout. Northern Iowa used a quick 7-0 surge to take its first lead of the day, 12-11, but Kennell buried a three on the next possession and Bradley stretched its lead to as high as seven, 24-17. A 9-0 run by the Panthers, however, would give Northern Iowa a 33-32 advantage at the intermission.
The Panthers would lead by as many as five points early in the second half, 39-34, before the Bradley offense took complete control against the nation's sixth-ranked defense.
Bradley scored on nine-consecutive possessions to turn its five-point deficit into a 56-42 lead. The Braves made all nine of their attempts during the 5:33 stretch, including four 3-pointers, while holding the Panthers to just 1-of-7 shooting. At one point, Bradley nailed a 3-pointer on four-straight possessions, with Brown making three – sandwiched around one from freshman forward Elijah Childs – as the sophomore point guard's 11 points during the run gave Bradley it's 14-point edge.
After a Northern Iowa 3-pointer, Bradley used another 9-0 run to stretch its advantage to as many as 20 points before securing the 19-point victory, 72-53. While the Bradley offense exploded in the second stanza, the Braves used its typical defensive effort to stymie the Panthers offense. UNI did not make a two-point field goal until 3:32 left in the second half as it missed its first nine shots inside the arc and shot just 2-of-11 overall during the stanza from 2-point range (18.2 percent).
Overall, Bradley made 47.9 percent of its field goals in the winning effort, including a 64.3 percent mark from 3-point range – the team's highest mark in 20 seasons. The Braves also held the Panthers to just 36.7 percent shooting, including a 39.1 percent clip from 3-point range. Bradley was especially strong against Northern Iowa's top two scorers as Bennett Koch and Klint Carlson entered the game averaging 24.1 combined points but scored only five to go with four turnovers on Sunday.
The Braves, who are a perfect 7-0 at Carver Arena this year, look to continue its winning ways with a home game against Valparaiso on Wednesday. The first meeting as Valley members is set to tipoff at 7 p.m.
Game Notes: The Braves' 64.3 percentage from 3-point range is the team's highest since making 66.7 percent (6-of-9) against Missouri State on Jan. 6, 1998 (minimum of five makes) ... The 19-point win was the largest for Bradley against Northern Iowa in any of the last 28 games in the series since a 71-49 victory on Feb. 22, 2006 ... The series between the two MVC schools is now knotted at 30 apiece ... The Braves won for the first time this season when trailing or tied at halftime (was 0-3) ... Brown has scored in double figures in 14-of-15 games this season, including each of the last nine contests ... Bradley is making 88.2 percent of its free throws in MVC play (30-of-34) after shooting 65.0 percent in non-conference action.
Very Surprised to see the lack of an extensive history between VU and Bradley, considering the proximity...
Bradley
1980-81 Bradley 100 Valpo 47
1981-82 Bradley 79 Valpo 58
1983-84 Valpo 73 Bradley 55... in the last year in old Hilltop Gym... One of the MVC teams we've never played in the ARC... along with Illinois State, Southern Illinois and Drake
This is game #16. The last time we lost game #16 was the 14-point Overtime loss at Oakland 3 years ago; we are 18-13 in game #16s
1 Donte Thomas Sr. F 6-7 225 Calumet City, Ill. Thornwood
2 Luqman Lundy Jr. G 6-3 200 Edgewater, N.J.
3 Antoine Pittman Jr. G 6-3 210 Rockford, Ill. Auburn
5 Darrell Brown So. G 5-10 190 Memphis, Tenn. Germantown
10 Elijah Childs Fr. F 6-7 220 Kansas City, Mo. Lee's Summit West
12 Koch Bar So. C 6-11 230 Abyei, South Sudan Arlington Country Day
13 Luuk van Bree Jr. F 6-9 225 Helmond, Netherlands Canarias Academy
14 Peter Hanley Jr. F 6-7 225 Peoria, Ill. Notre Dame
21 Ryan Stipanovich Fr. G/F 6-7 210 St. Louis, Mo. De Smet Jesuit
23 Dwayne Lautier-Ogunleye Jr. G 6-4 210 London, England Bristol Academy
25 Nate Kennell So. G 6-6 205 Metamora, Ill. Metamora Township
30 Callum Barker Jr. C 6-9 235 Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Notre Dame Prep
35 Jayden Hodgson So. G 6-3 200 Gosford, Australia UCSSC Lake Ginninderra
## Player gp-gs min avg fg-fga fg% 3fg-fga 3fg% ft-fta ft% off def tot avg pf dq a to blk stl pts avg
05 Brown, Darrell 15-15 460 30.7 71-183 . 3 8 8 24-56 . 4 2 9 48-69 . 6 9 6 5 33 38 2.5 30 1 58 42 0 13 214 14.3
25 Kennell, Nate 15-10 376 25.1 44-115 . 3 8 3 29-76 . 3 8 2 22-28 . 7 8 6 5 37 42 2.8 37 0 32 24 3 11 139 9.3
01 Thomas, Donte 15-15 347 23.1 51-100 . 5 1 0 1-11 . 0 9 1 24-35 . 6 8 6 27 64 91 6.1 39 0 17 26 12 13 127 8.5
10 Childs, Elijah 15-3 266 17.7 49-92 . 5 3 3 5-8 . 6 2 5 17-26 . 6 5 4 35 59 94 6.3 30 0 6 20 19 9 120 8.0
13 van Bree, Luuk 14-1 205 14.6 32-63 . 5 0 8 15-28 . 5 3 6 7-10 . 7 0 0 13 27 40 2.9 24 0 5 10 7 6 86 6.1
12 Bar, Koch 12-11 238 19.8 25-56 . 4 4 6 0-0 . 0 0 0 19-31 . 6 1 3 25 26 51 4.3 32 0 5 20 13 4 69 5.8
23 Lautier-Ogunleye, D. 15-15 341 22.7 27-65 . 4 1 5 11-28 . 3 9 3 18-31 . 5 8 1 15 55 70 4.7 31 0 35 21 1 7 83 5.5
35 Hodgson, Jayden 14-5 298 21.3 21-41 . 5 1 2 12-24 . 5 0 0 13-19 . 6 8 4 1 22 23 1.6 23 0 23 18 0 11 67 4.8
21 Stipanovich, Ryan 14-0 150 10.7 13-26 . 5 0 0 8-15 . 5 3 3 12-12 1.000 13 14 27 1.9 14 0 11 14 2 10 46 3.3
02 Lundy, Luqman 11-0 62 5.6 5-16 . 3 1 3 2-6 . 3 3 3 3-6 . 5 0 0 2 5 7 0.6 3 0 9 7 2 6 15 1.4
30 Barker, Callum 9-0 61 6.8 4-11 . 3 6 4 0-0 . 0 0 0 2-5 . 4 0 0 6 4 10 1.1 9 0 0 4 2 3 10 1.1
14 Hanley, Peter 4-0 11 2.8 0-4 . 0 0 0 0-0 . 0 0 0 0-0 . 0 0 0 0 2 2 0.5 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0.0
Team 18 21 39 1 2
Total.......... 15 3000 361-825 . 4 3 8 111-274 . 4 0 5 201-297 . 6 7 7 175 394 569 37.9 285 1 211 226 64 105 1034 68.9
Valpo score, over/under 50
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 01, 2018, 08:27:25 AM
Valpo score, over/under 50
Over. Even though it won't be getting any easier on Wednesday against Bradley's defense. Just a gut feeling we get 60 and have a better night.
Over
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 01, 2018, 08:27:25 AM
Valpo score, over/under 50
I think it will be over 50 but not by much. OTOH Bradley will not have much trouble scoring over 50 and destroying Valpo by 20 or more.
An interesting fact: Peoria before it was the construction equipment capital of the world was the whiskey producing capital of the world.
http://www.pjstar.com/article/20150825/lifestyle/150829711
How will it (Valpo) play in Peoria?
Over
We are due for a surprise performance....give 'em a battle or maybe even even a win?
Quote from: valpo64 on January 02, 2018, 01:01:07 PM
We are due for a surprise performance....give 'em a battle or maybe even even a win?
We're also due for a offensive system or scheme.
I just know the thought of losing to freaking Wardle makes me sick.
As a side note; series with either Bradley, ISU-red or both would have been desired by Matt and Bryce for the purpose of a week night distance game in the backyard of the Peters family. This should have but never did happen. Until shown otherwise I will continue to believe that this failure had more to do with them than with us. Any Bradley viewers can jump in now to help clarify with whatever you might know or have heard.
Quote from: Valpo89 on January 02, 2018, 01:54:31 PM
I just know the thought of losing to freaking Wardle makes me sick.
I'd like this a million times if I could. :-X
https://twitter.com/valpoathletics/status/948343289308213249
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J3zW9MQ0rc
Just watched Todd's weekly interview with Lottich, and the most interesting features were the lack of answers to unasked questions and what was left out. There was no explanation or expectation mentioned about Burton. There wasn't any reason given for the fact that Hazen never even stepped on the court in the last game. (Lottich only mentioned Hazen in passing and that he hoped Parker would regain his confidence in practices.) Nothing was said about Evelyn's status (illness or otherwise) that caused him to have diminished minutes and a poor performance in the last game. In addition, Lottich only had generic comments (need to guard the three-point line and hit our shots) about the upcoming Bradley game in response to a final question. It was not an inspiring interview. I don't mean that as a criticism of Lottich or Todd, but perhaps as an accurate reflection of a realistic perspective on the state of the team at this time.
If this team finishes at .500 or above, I feel fully confident that Matt Lottich is the right coach at Valpo.
In critiquing Todd, for the harsh weather we are having, he should not be wearing a Valpo Athletics polo shirt.
It's a University produced video. I wouldn't expect any questions to be asked that weren't approved in advance. Todd is good at what he does and my guess is he would ask those questions if allowed.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on January 02, 2018, 06:30:43 PM
It's a University produced video. I wouldn't expect any questions to be asked that weren't approved in advance. Todd is good at what he does and my guess is he would ask those questions if allowed.
BINGO
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on January 02, 2018, 06:30:43 PM
It's a University produced video. I wouldn't expect any questions to be asked that weren't approved in advance. Todd is good at what he does and my guess is he would ask those questions if allowed.
Todd does seem to ask tougher questions in the post game interviews with Luke Gore which are more in the heat of the battle than in the "warm, polo shirt" away from the court action studio that the Lottich interviews take place.
Matt is really good at giving you nothing of any substance. Obviously that is by design.
True about Todd, but more suitable apparel in brutally cold weather is required
Quote from: vu72 on January 02, 2018, 07:10:25 PM
Matt is really good at giving you nothing of any substance. Obviously that is by design.
I agree, and I am not being critical of Matt or Todd. Apparently both are giving what they agreed to offer. However, if Todd is precluded from asking the questions on the minds of fans and Matt by design is good at giving no substantive responses, then viewers receive no new or significant information. In fact, it appeared as if the interview was just pro forma and reluctantly conducted just because one is scheduled each week. So, my question becomes why should we want to watch?
Quote from: EddieCabot on January 02, 2018, 08:46:20 PM
Quote from: valpopal on January 02, 2018, 06:10:35 PM
Just watched Todd's weekly interview with Lottich, and the most interesting features were the lack of answers to unasked questions and what was left out. There was no explanation or expectation mentioned about Burton. There wasn't any reason given for the fact that Hazen never even stepped on the court in the last game. (Lottich only mentioned Hazen in passing and that he hoped Parker would regain his confidence in practices.) Nothing was said about Evelyn's status (illness or otherwise) that caused him to have diminished minutes and a poor performance in the last game. In addition, Lottich only had generic comments (need to guard the three-point line and hit our shots) about the upcoming Bradley game in response to a final question. It was not an inspiring interview. I don't mean that as a criticism of Lottich or Todd, but perhaps as an accurate reflection of a realistic perspective on the state of the team at this time.
I know everyone would like more probing questions, but please realize that Todd and Paul are on the university payroll and Osipoff is focused on covering hockey, so just be satisfied with what you get.
I, for one, just want improvement on the court. What is with critiquing clothing choice and Ickow's lack of screwing over his colleagues?
Hard hitting questions from a 4,000 student mid-major guys? Job on the line after going 9-6 to open a season. Yowza some of us are unhinged.
Admittedly I was truly excited with 8-0. 1-6 is putrid. Something in the middle would be respectable to finish out the season.
Suppose I'm most nervous about losing a commitment from Javon Freeman-Liberty if we continue to look lost.
Anything else is noise in the Channel for me, at the moment. I'm thankful to have a top notch Union Street Hoops Podcast (next episode PAUL?) and a high energy radio guy in Ickow with a solid weekly interview show with coach.
Keep up the good work Ickow and Oren!
https://twitter.com/bradleyhoops/status/948366820544724992
https://twitter.com/KirkWessler/status/948363013966344193
That article in the Peoria paper was very fair. Indeed it was a tale of two months. November with Tevonn. December without him.
He has 30 points in the two games since his comeback. Maybe the floor rotations can adjust gradually to having T.W. again and start improving. But it will be gradual.
Not mentioning Bakari's illness was a mistake. It was mentioned numerous times throughout the radio broadcast. There's no new news concerning Burton, but it was mentioned that his loss really hurt the team. I don't think it's any secret why Parker has not played much lately. He hasn't produced offensively and the team is struggling offensively.
And finally....the show has a dress code. As for going forward, I expect a much better performance tonight. I think it's great Valpo has so many passionate fans, and I'm sure that's one thing that will never change.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 02, 2018, 08:54:33 PMSuppose I'm most nervous about losing a commitment from Javon Freeman-Liberty if we continue to look lost.
Javon was at the Missouri State game and probably was not particularly impressed. I also talked to an agent that I know who was there to see Alize Johnson and Tevonnn, neither one of them had a great game.
https://twitter.com/ValpoBasketball/status/948708131416178689
For well over a month, this team has not been ready to take the floor at Gametime. That is 100% on the coaching staff. I want to see Lottich raging at these guys tonight. Nothing else has worked.
11-0 to start the game... 15:43 min left in the 1st half. A lot of standing around on offense again.
(https://i.giphy.com/media/4rzPDbJMmWHNC/200.gif)
Just wow... What is there to say at this point?
Not great rebounding starting out.
Marty contributing solid minutes though.
Is this... some semblance of offensive flow we see finally? Wonderful! Let's keep it up! Go Valpo!
I do wish we'd work the ball into the post a bit more.
You know what? 11-0 start notwithstanding that was pretty good on both sides of the floor.
Mileek, Who the ______ thinks screening someone like a horny dog is acceptable?
Completely accurate.
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/948739333028229121
All this size and so little of it can rebound.
I never expected the reffing in the MVC to be worse that the Horizon, but these three games have been brutal.
Bradley in the bonus with 14 min left on an attrotious call.
And the Bradley announcers are bickering about Valpo flopping lol
Lol that screen was terrible, he's had a rough one tonight.
Kindve gettin tired of golder yelling at the other teams bench when he does something...I guess he hadn't done anything in about a month so maybe it was pent up.
Offense looks so much better...who'd have thought ball screens would be a good idea (everyone!).
In the future even if we have to sacrifice a bit on offense I would like to see more Linssen type players and less Smits\Sorolla types unless the players with Smits\Sorolla size can attack the glass like Linssen.
Bradford needs to just stop shooting. By the way STLvufan in the Bradley house!
Btw. Fudge Brian Wardle.
Danger zone time at 10:53
Hot Take: Our centers are not good at basketball.
I was just about to post that we should experiment with the idea of playing small because our centers contribute so little on a nightly basis.
How many times will these Bradley announcers mention how consistent the reffing is?
Over the last few years, we have to be the most idiotic team in regards to defending 3's. How many times have we fouled a 3 point shooter?? We always roll our feet under the guy, so that they land on them. Who the F teaches them this tactic so poorly?
I saw STLvufan behind our bench!
Our 7 footers play below the rim.
At least smits has a little hook every now and then
Bigs can't play defense.
They look like they are playing like they are tired of losing. This is a positive development. Baby steps.
Why Bakari? What terrible shot selection....
everyone wants to be the hero with the big shot. Id rather they pick up a few of those second chance shots theyve didnt get right by the basket
F'ing stupid fouls too. This team is so annoying. We foul on rebounds that we should be able to get without fouling.
Biggest difference between Horizon League and Missouri Valley is the play of the 4s and 5s. Mileek and Marty will be able to hang eventually, but Smits and Sorolla are being exposed.
Or try not spotting the opposition 11 points before you finally start playing.
This was at least somewhat competitive but this team is so frustrating to watch.
I agree our 4 and 5s are being exposed. Micah also shooting 2-11 doesn't help
Me: Much better. They tried their best.
My inner John Mason (from the massively underrated 1996 classic "The Rock"): "Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and (kiss) the prom queen."
I'm encouraged with the offensive sets. So much more movement!
Defense and rebounding, especially our bigs, has to get better if we are going to win a few of these games this year. Bradley had a couple Vashils on their team tonight.
We accomplish another low for the program in a long time, in starting 0-3 in conference for the first time since my FR year of 1999-2000. We ended up second that year and won the tournament. Unfortunately, that won't happen with this team, so the comparison stops there.
Well, at least they looked like they belonged on the same court & competed for most of the game.
Better than I thought they would do.
Quote from: valpotx on January 03, 2018, 08:53:32 PM
F'ing stupid fouls too. This team is so annoying. We foul on rebounds that we should be able to get without fouling.
I'll 2nd that, I can't recall agreeing with nearly 100% of fouls that go against us.
My favorite was still Mileek giving a good strong hump while "screening"!!! Someone should get him a girlfriend for such things...
Once again, the announcers on the ESPN3 broadcast were unbearable. Will we ever get to watch a broadcast with our announcers?
If you ...
Can't shoot... (33%FG)
And you....
Can't rebound.... 45-30 Bradley so -15 for Valpo....
Then you...
Can't win....
It's that simple...
This is going to take 2+ more years before we see results. We have so many players that just aren't MVC caliber right now...
That said we competed hard and looked a lot better. Things are looking up even though the losses sting. Let's see how we do against a shorthanded Saluki squad at home. Go Valpo!
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 03, 2018, 09:19:58 PM
If you ...
Can't shoot... (33%FG)
And you....
Can't rebound.... 45-30 Bradley so -15 for Valpo....
Then you...
Can't win....
It's that simple...
This is going to take 2+ more years before we see results. We have so many players that just aren't MVC caliber right now...
That said we competed hard and looked a lot better. Things are looking up even though the losses sting. Let's see how we do against a shorthanded Saluki squad at home. Go Valpo!
Patience. I think that Paul and 2014 both pointed out on Twitter that this performance was much better. You just can't expect such a young team to perform much better than they did tonight.
I haven't heard Coach L's post game press conference, but I'm sure he'll confirm this.
Quote from: M on January 03, 2018, 09:09:46 PMI'm encouraged with the offensive sets. So much more movement! Defense and rebounding, especially our bigs, has to get better if we are going to win a few of these games this year. Bradley had a couple Vashils on their team tonight.
I agree with everything except your comment on our defense. I think our defense is the best thing about this team right now. To make it look even better they need to rebound better or at least stop fouling on rebounds.
The game was lost on the boards: 45-30 in favor of Bradley. The centers need to be taught toughness. Smits and Sorolla combined for a total of 4 rebounds, while guards Walker and Joseph grabbed 12. How did they play all last year with Peters and not learn how to rebound? Also, why can't the 7-footers dunk the ball? I'm tired of watching the centers miss layups. If I were an outsider watching this team for the first time, my evaluation would be that overall they are a soft bunch. I wish the whole team had the grit of Walker and the hustle of Linssen.
Everybody played hard and most played well.
Not to knock Mileek or Parker but we needed a mature 4 to have a chance to win. Could have been Joe, could have been Fazekas, even could have been a healthy Kiser, but we needed some additional production from the 4 position to have a chance.
The quantity of Derrick "claps" is directly correlated to our success as a team.
2 or fewer = victory
3 or more = oh ______, here we go again!!!
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 03, 2018, 09:31:50 PM
The quantity of Derrick "claps" is directly correlated to our success as a team.
2 or fewer = victory
3 or more = oh ______, here we go again!!!
https://giphy.com/gifs/applause-joker-the-dark-knight-TbRXNJJJbgIkE (https://giphy.com/gifs/applause-joker-the-dark-knight-TbRXNJJJbgIkE)
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 03, 2018, 09:33:52 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 03, 2018, 09:31:50 PM
The quantity of Derrick "claps" is directly correlated to our success as a team.
2 or fewer = victory
3 or more = oh ______, here we go again!!!
https://giphy.com/gifs/applause-joker-the-dark-knight-TbRXNJJJbgIkE (https://giphy.com/gifs/applause-joker-the-dark-knight-TbRXNJJJbgIkE)
(https://giphy.com/gifs/applause-joker-the-dark-knight-TbRXNJJJbgIkE)
I didn't think any of our bigs defended (I did think that Mileek and friends defended well vs Missouri states NBa guy) rebounded or played offense well.
Edit: maybe it was more the lack of rebounding that's making me think the defense was bad
I think Sorolla might need to be tested for low T.
Quote from: valpopal on January 03, 2018, 09:27:01 PM
The game was lost on the boards: 45-30 in favor of Bradley. The centers need to be taught toughness. Smits and Sorolla combined for a total of 4 rebounds, while guards Walker and Joseph grabbed 12. How did they play all last year with Peters and not learn how to rebound? Also, why can't the 7-footers dunk the ball? I'm tired of watching the centers miss layups. If I were an outsider watching this team for the first time, my evaluation would be that overall they are a soft bunch. I wish the whole team had the grit of Walker and the hustle of Linssen.
I agree with you Pal. Obviously height doesn't make a good player. I wonder if it is just too late to teach our bigs how to dunk? Or for that matter, how to rebound, or at least look like they want to rebound, rather than being a spectator.
https://twitter.com/PostTribSports/status/948769342719750145
How does this happen?? ??? I thought we showed improvement tonight but we got obliterated on the glass. I could have out rebounded Smits and Sorolla tonight. There is absolutely zero pitbull in those 2 lately. They are giant 7 ft towers, start establishing yourselves and start boxing out guys. It wasn't just them, it was the wings also that let the other guys into positions to grab boards also. Tevonn & Max were the only ones that I saw properly boxing out tonight.
https://twitter.com/bradleyumbb/status/948773689998397440
https://twitter.com/bradleyhoops/status/948799675137589248
That column should be required reading for all the Crusaders.
Compete. Defend. Rebound.
This team consistently fails miserably in two of those categories.
As someone else mentioned, Tevonn and Max are the only two you can depend on for 40 minutes.
Someone needs to light a fire under Smits and Sorolla. Geez.
This team is currently in a state of disarray.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 04, 2018, 09:03:57 AM
This team is currently in a state of disarray.
No it's not. It's in a state of youth and inexperience. These guys are learning.
We need a little perspective. We lost our 2nd leading scorer (3rd most experienced player in terms of minutes/who only had bench minutes at his previous stop) and best shooter on team, mid-season right before Conference play started. Our best player is coming off a bout of mono and its pretty clear he's not 100% healthy yet. On top of all that the other team we're play against is more experienced and probably has more raw talent then us without Joe. And we're on the road.
Some may look at that say excuses but it's just a reality check. I'm not saying everything is rosy but last night was better all things considered. The guys really fought there tails off against a good Bradley team.
Valparaiso can't overcome Bradley's hot shooting in road defeat
Paul Oren Times Correspondent
Jan 3, 2018 Updated 10 hrs ago
PEORIA — Life in The Valley continued to be a bumpy road for the Valparaiso men's basketball team on Wednesday night.
The Crusaders lost their third straight conference game, this time falling 80-71 at Bradley to drop to 0-3 in their inaugural season in the Missouri Valley Conference. Wednesday's loss marked the first time since the 1999-2000 season that Valparaiso lost its first three conference games of the season.
Valparaiso has now lost seven of its last eight games since starting the season 8-0.
.......... http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/valparaiso-can-t-overcome-bradley-s-hot-shooting-in-road/article_78c489eb-5405-54e5-a10d-3589d1f41e77.html
Quote from: VU2014 on January 04, 2018, 09:13:51 AMNo it's not. It's in a state of youth and inexperience. These guys are learning.
With all due respect, I think the youth and inexperience excuse is getting old. It sounds like the excuse of a loser to me. We need to be realistic and someone needs to put a spark under this team and quick or we're going to turn into the laughing stock of the MVC in our first year.
I'm willing to give Marty, Mileek, Parker, and even Markus (although to a lesser extent) a pass for inexperience. That pass terminated at the end of the MVC tournament though. Sorolla, Smits and Bradford receive no passes (and hopefully they don't want a pass). Those three need to be better at what they were each brought here to do.
Quote from: valpolaw on January 04, 2018, 09:24:57 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on January 04, 2018, 09:13:51 AMNo it's not. It's in a state of youth and inexperience. These guys are learning.
With all due respect, I think the youth and inexperience excuse is getting old. It sounds like the excuse of a loser to me. We need to be realistic and someone needs to put a spark under this team and quick or we're going to turn into the laughing stock of the MVC in our first year.
How is being young an excuse when it's a reality? That is the main issue with this team, imo but I'm not saying it's the only reason.
I just don't think this is a talented (there is actually quite a bit of raw talent but none of it is developed other then Tevonn) team right now, tbh. There has been some recruiting & roster construction issues that is fair game to criticize the coaching staff for but we're young and we are making young/dumb mistakes. At the end of the day there were positives to take away from yesterdays game. It's not all doom & gloom.
Yes there is plenty of room for improvement but there is also room for some understanding from the fan-base.
Didn't get a chance to see the game, but if we shot 33% to their 51% and were out rebounded by 15 I would have expected a 20-25 point loss. So we must have been doing something right to keep it under 10 points shooting such such a low percentage from the field. I mean seriously, 33% is REALLY low. That doesn't happen very often even with a team of poor shooters.
11 turnovers is an improvement. If we shoot 43% from the field (still not a great percentage) and are only out rebounded by 10 we might have had a chance to win.
I am not ready to give up just yet. However, I am just not sure we have anybody who can consistently shoot the ball. So I am not overly optimistic either.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on January 04, 2018, 09:48:55 AM
I am not ready to give up just yet. However, I am just not sure we have anybody who can consistently shoot the ball. So I am not overly optimistic either.
We don't have any good shooters on this roster now that Joe is gone. Bakari and Tevonn are capable shooter but aren't consistent threats. Golder isn't consistent at this point either.
The guy that should be a capable shooter that has been truly awful this season is Micah Bradford. He really just isn't a very good player and is not a MVC caliber guard but we are forced to play him out of need because we have nobody else. 2-11 FG-FA, 2-6 3PT, 2-4FT. That is horrendous and that has been every game this season. What a terrible recruiting mistake. I'd swap other teams walk-ons for him.
for anyone who was there... how was the "Chirping"? Did we finally get THAT out of our system?
I said last year Bradford was not a good fit on the court for the expectations the basketball program has. I was outnumbered. I appreciate you guys coming around and seeing it my way.
The question is.......This time next year, will we be saying the same about several of the current freshman? Or even the coach and his staff.
These questions will be answered in time.
We will have good evidence on the coach question after we play our conference foes second time around.
Definite improvement.
The Next two home games are really key vs. lower half MVC teams.
They need a W or two to stop the bleeding before we go out on road vs NIU and MoSU. Those could be blowouts and devastating killers of confidence and momentum if we lose the next two at home.
I couldn't care less about the announcers who have nothing to do with the outcome of the game. Turn the volume down and just watch the game.
Quote from: valpospartan on January 03, 2018, 10:30:35 PM
Quote from: valpopal on January 03, 2018, 09:27:01 PM
The game was lost on the boards: 45-30 in favor of Bradley. The centers need to be taught toughness. Smits and Sorolla combined for a total of 4 rebounds, while guards Walker and Joseph grabbed 12. How did they play all last year with Peters and not learn how to rebound? Also, why can't the 7-footers dunk the ball? I'm tired of watching the centers miss layups. If I were an outsider watching this team for the first time, my evaluation would be that overall they are a soft bunch. I wish the whole team had the grit of Walker and the hustle of Linssen.
I agree with you Pal. Obviously height doesn't make a good player. I wonder if it is just too late to teach our bigs how to dunk? Or for that matter, how to rebound, or at least look like they want to rebound, rather than being a spectator.
The bigs are weak, tentative, and need a lesson in toughness, hustle, nose for the ball, and overall aggressiveness. They play like pussies. They need to get mean. Perhaps Tony V. could come and consult and demonstrate division 1 big behavior at practices.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 04, 2018, 09:40:28 AM
Quote from: valpolaw on January 04, 2018, 09:24:57 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on January 04, 2018, 09:13:51 AMNo it's not. It's in a state of youth and inexperience. These guys are learning.
With all due respect, I think the youth and inexperience excuse is getting old. It sounds like the excuse of a loser to me. We need to be realistic and someone needs to put a spark under this team and quick or we're going to turn into the laughing stock of the MVC in our first year.
How is being young an excuse when it's a reality? That is the main issue with this team, imo but I'm not saying it's the only reason.
I just don't think this is a talented (there is actually quite a bit of raw talent but none of it is developed other then Tevonn) team right now, tbh. There has been some recruiting & roster construction issues that is fair game to criticize the coaching staff for but we're young and we are making young/dumb mistakes. At the end of the day there were positives to take away from yesterdays game. It's not all doom & gloom.
Yes there is plenty of room for improvement but there is also room for some understanding from the fan-base.
Well stated. I also hope fans don't turn on the coaching staff. When Lottich took over, he inherited a talented and experienced roster, but it also had poor class balance. That led to the young roster the program is dealing with this year.
Good teams have the ability to get on a run and turn a 6-8 point 2nd half deficit into a 6-8 point lead, as Crusader teams have done repeatedly in past seasons. This team makes an 8-point 2nd half deficit feel like 15. To take control of any game - short of the opponent just going flat out cold - we would need to do several things well at the same time and sustain it. That means stop missing FT's at crucial times, picking up the intensity on the defensive end, stop committing endless reach-in fouls while the other team is running its sets, boxing out, stop climbing over people's backs, hitting more wide open 3's, and actually finishing a layup without getting your shot blocked. It even means getting players like Smits and Golder, who live in denial with every foul they commit, to wipe that smirky smile of disbelief off their faces with every out-of-position foul they commit. By the way, do we even huddle up any more between after a foul is called and before the players line up? If we do, I'm missing it. And, I saw Tevonn hit a free throw last night in the 2nd half and hold his had out for someone to slap it - in front of him or behind him - but no one moved. Finally, Evelyn jogged up and held out his hand. How embarrassing. Oh, how I wish Lexus Williams was still here, so Valpo would actually have 1 high intensity, vocal leader to wake up the dead.
It its present form, this team will have to rely on luck to win another game. That said, it will probably get lucky and win a game or 3 where the other team has a completely off night or collapses down the stretch. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Finally, for those who say they saw definite improvement last night, I only wish I could feel the same. Unfortunately, I don't have a clue where you're coming from.
Quote from: M on January 04, 2018, 09:36:48 AM
I'm willing to give Marty, Mileek, Parker, and even Markus (although to a lesser extent) a pass for inexperience. That pass terminated at the end of the MVC tournament though. Sorolla, Smits and Bradford receive no passes (and hopefully they don't want a pass). Those three need to be better at what they were each brought here to do.
Couldn't agree more. Smits, especially, has been in college for (approaching) 3-years. He has been around a solid college b-ball team all those years. He's just not dependable in 50% of games. He is a bench player from here on out. I play Linssen over him at this juncture.
Sorolla needs some huevos and once found, he's our man. He should be our started imo. Until Linssen shows us he can foul less.
Bradford is growing on me for ball handling. But good lord. DO NOT SHOOT OR GET FOULED. So......is that really someone we want taking minutes? More likely we are forced to give him minutes.
Fazekas and Freeman need to be game ready (next year) or we continue with tough times.
Didn't they take an 11 point deficit and erase that?
Quote from: M on January 04, 2018, 01:17:52 PM
Didn't they take an 11 point deficit and erase that?
You mean the 11 point deficit at the beginning of the game - when they were still fresh, while they were still working hard on the defensive end, before they started committing stupid, reach-in fouls non-stop (the sign of a team that lacks stamina/mental toughness), before they got into foul trouble of their own making? Yep, they sure did.
I think we all need to calm down. First year in a new conference, just went through a huge roster change, most of the players are still young, freshmen and sophomores. After that timeout after going down 11-0 last night, they changed the offense up including more drives and passes instead of just stalling around the three point line, and I think that is of great importance and I think it already started to show last night. the big problem last year was how every time down the court we were getting touch fouls and we did't even have a cane to play defense as they were going to the free throw line every possession because of a stupid rebounding foul. I think we will see that diminish as the year moves on and especially into next year. A lot of these players are seeing their first major minutes of college basketball and are only 16 games into their first years as major producers on their teams. Although Smits is not getting any passes from me because he is in third year of college, I still think he will get better at holding onto the ball, as will Sorolla, eventually, but I would like to see that sooner than later although I know it is a process as we saw with Vashil. Next year I don't have any doubt in my mind that we will be a solid team and much better than this year.
Yup, that's the lead. Right at the beginning when it would've been easy to throw it in as a lost cause.
Hopefully a better start to the game on Saturday.
It never ceases to amaze me how little production, including defense, offense and REBOUNDING, that we get from THREE GUYS WHO ARE ABOUT 7 FEET TALL.
Quote from: AranJacobs on January 04, 2018, 01:39:16 PM
I think we all need to calm down. First year in a new conference, just went through a huge roster change, most of the players are still young, freshmen and sophomores.
As Coach L has pointed out before/during/after recent games, you just can't expect a team of 19 year-olds right out of high school to compete with all these older teams. Until these guys get older, there's really not much the coaching staff can do.
C'mon man. 19 year olds? Tevonn and Max are 19? Derrik and Jay are 19? Joe, 19? (If he returns). Bakari 19. These are men. Valpo supposedly recruits intelligent players. Too many excuses. Hell, Michigan went to the NCAA final 4 with five freshman. It is talent + attitiude + coaching. Simple as that.
I can't judge BB talent, but many on this board say we have it.
As for attitude, lately even I have observed a lack of cohesiveness and intensity. Big difference from last year where the team appeared to me to have an innate feel for each player's spacing, location and strengths. That is attitude combined with coaching. Do your job! With the exception of Marty and Markus most of the front liners have been around a while.
Coaching-wise, there does not appear to me to be a visible offensive "system" (if that is what you call it in BB) that this team relies upon to settle into. And as mentioned in previous posts, and alluded to under attitude, there appears to be a lack of a killer instinct especially in our bigs.
Finally, I always thought that the PG was the QB of a basketball team, and therefore, as the QB/PG goes, so goes the team. Is Bakari giving us the intelligent floor leadership we require?
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 04, 2018, 09:23:16 PM
C'mon man. 19 year olds? Tevonn and Max are 19? Derrik and Jay are 19? Joe, 19? (If he returns). Bakari 19. These are men. Valpo supposedly recruits intelligent players. Too many excuses. Hell, Michigan went to the NCAA final 4 with five freshman. It is talent + attitiude + coaching. Simple as that.
I can't judge BB talent, but many on this board say we have it.
As for attitude, lately even I have observed a lack of cohesiveness and intensity. Big difference from last year where the team appeared to me to have an innate feel for each player's spacing, location and strengths. That is attitude combined with coaching. Do your job! With the exception of Marty and Markus most of the front liners have been around a while.
Coaching-wise, there does not appear to me to be a visible offensive "system" (if that is what you call it in BB) that this team relies upon to settle into. And as mentioned in previous posts, and alluded to under attitude, there appears to be a lack of a killer instinct especially in our bigs.
Finally, I always thought that the PG was the QB of a basketball team, and therefore, as the QB/PG goes, so goes the team. Is Bakari giving us the intelligent floor leadership we require?
The five true freshman Kentucky players who won the national championship a few years back were just 19-year olds.
Criticize the slow starts the offensive struggles the weakness both physical and mental of our 7 footers the lack of cohesiveness etc. all you want but don't use the "Fab 5" (which Michigan cheated to get anyway ) or Calipari's recruits as if that's attainable for Valpo. A bunch of McDonald's All-American five star recruits playing at aP5 school with a $10million+ budget is going to look quite a bit different especially as freshmen than a bunch of 2-4 star kids at a mid major with a budget around $3million. I hope your mention of them was sarcastic.
Quote from: EddieCabot on January 04, 2018, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: AranJacobs on January 04, 2018, 01:39:16 PM
I think we all need to calm down. First year in a new conference, just went through a huge roster change, most of the players are still young, freshmen and sophomores.
As Coach L has pointed out before/during/after recent games, you just can't expect a team of 19 year-olds right out of high school to compete with all these older teams. Until these guys get older, there's really not much the coaching staff can do.
You guys all took Eddie's bait!
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 05, 2018, 06:43:26 AM
Criticize the slow starts the offensive struggles the weakness both physical and mental of our 7 footers the lack of cohesiveness etc. all you want but don't use the "Fab 5" (which Michigan cheated to get anyway ) or Calipari's recruits as if that's attainable for Valpo. A bunch of McDonald's All-American five star recruits playing at aP5 school with a $10million+ budget is going to look quite a bit different especially as freshmen than a bunch of 2-4 star kids at a mid major with a budget around $3million. I hope your mention of them was sarcastic.
It is all relative to whatever level you're at. My point -- talent (appropriate to level of competition) + attitude (read: intensity and adherence to a team's style) + coaching (providing that style, proper techniques and demanding intensity) = constant improvement and success. And I would submit that talent, while certainly necessary, could even be less than optimum if the attitude and coaching is there to overcome, to an extent, the talent deficiency.
We are overdue to get things together for a nice win...maybe this Saturday.
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 04, 2018, 09:23:16 PMC'mon man. 19 year olds? Tevonn and Max are 19? Derrik and Jay are 19? Joe, 19? (If he returns). Bakari 19. These are men. Valpo supposedly recruits intelligent players. Too many excuses. Hell, Michigan went to the NCAA final 4 with five freshman. It is talent + attitiude + coaching. Simple as that. I can't judge BB talent, but many on this board say we have it. As for attitude, lately even I have observed a lack of cohesiveness and intensity. Big difference from last year where the team appeared to me to have an innate feel for each player's spacing, location and strengths. That is attitude combined with coaching. Do your job! With the exception of Marty and Markus most of the front liners have been around a while. Coaching-wise, there does not appear to me to be a visible offensive "system" (if that is what you call it in BB) that this team relies upon to settle into. And as mentioned in previous posts, and alluded to under attitude, there appears to be a lack of a killer instinct especially in our bigs. Finally, I always thought that the PG was the QB of a basketball team, and therefore, as the QB/PG goes, so goes the team. Is Bakari giving us the intelligent floor leadership we require?
This team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
Quote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 10:48:59 AM
This team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.
Quote from: Valpo89 on January 05, 2018, 01:52:12 PM
Quote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 10:48:59 AM
This team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.
At least Alec had Tevonn. Tevonn has no one.
Quote from: Valpo89 on January 05, 2018, 01:52:12 PM
Quote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 10:48:59 AM
This team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.
It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before.
I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons.
I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but its very raw and not developed yet (they are mostly FR/SO) other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very pleased with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now.
I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 05, 2018, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: Valpo89 on January 05, 2018, 01:52:12 PM
Quote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 10:48:59 AM
This team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.
It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before.
I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons.
I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but it very raw and not developed yet other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very please with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now.
I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.
I agree with "2014" on most points here. I'd add that having an Alec is not necessary, rather only a really nice cherry on top.
Does UNI graduate NBA drafts in every 4-year class? Did Wichita State? Both programs generally have 4 Tevonn's playing as role players. That may be overstated, but my thought is that depth at scoring is far more important than NBA draft level guys like Peters.
If we get another talent like him in the next 4-years I'd be surprised. But I'll take 3 guys with his dedication and morals.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 05, 2018, 02:46:50 PMQuote from: Valpo89 on January 05, 2018, 01:52:12 PMQuote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 10:48:59 AMThis team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.
It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before. I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons. I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but its very raw and not developed yet (they are mostly FR/SO) other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very pleased with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now. I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.
I think the next great Valpo player is indeed on the roster. He's just not active yet. His name is Ryan Fazekas. Another player I have high hopes for is currently in High School at Whitney-Young finishing up his senior year He's called Javon Freeman-Liberty. If we don't have talent now we'll have it soon. And plenty of it.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 05, 2018, 03:05:40 PM
I think the next great Valpo player is indeed on the roster. He's just not active yet. His name is Ryan Fazekas. Another player I have high hopes for is currently in High School at Whitney-Young finishing up his senior year He's called Javon Freeman-Liberty. If we don't have talent now we'll have it soon. And plenty of it.
Ryan will definitely be huge. Some MUCH needed outside shooting that will cause the defenders to not cheat on defense and it will give those twin towers more room to operate in the paint. Could you imagine him and Joe on the court at the same time next season. 2 stud 3 point shooters, Javon is a capable 3 pt shooter from what I've heard but his bread butter is slashing to the hoop. Bakari will have another year under his belt (his 1st full season since his junior year of HS). Bring Golder off the bench next season. Just as important these guys would have a full season playing together under their belt.
I really like our prospects next season better then this season, particularly if Joe comes back for his senior year.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 05, 2018, 06:43:26 AM
Criticize the slow starts the offensive struggles the weakness both physical and mental of our 7 footers the lack of cohesiveness etc. all you want but don't use the "Fab 5" (which Michigan cheated to get anyway ) or Calipari's recruits as if that's attainable for Valpo. A bunch of McDonald's All-American five star recruits playing at aP5 school with a $10million+ budget is going to look quite a bit different especially as freshmen than a bunch of 2-4 star kids at a mid major with a budget around $3million. I hope your mention of them was sarcastic.
The original argument was about age, not talent. Straw man.
Not when those examples are brought up as something all 19 year old college freshmen can do. Nice try.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 05, 2018, 03:54:55 PM
Not when those examples are brought up as something all 19 year old college freshmen can do. Nice try.
The argument was that they are only 19 year-olds and it's to be expected that they will not perform well. I pointed out that the KY team was 19 year-olds too but they performed well. That is all. No one mentioned talent yet you argued against my comment based on something I never said or implied. That's a straw-man argument. Nice try though.
Be reasonable. Just the mere mention of Kentucky or Michigan calls to mind an image like the one I described. Anyone could have and would have made that leap. Therefore I contend that you did imply it; and even if you didn't my point still stands that bringing up Kentucky's freshmen in the context of this argument is ridiculous.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 05, 2018, 04:19:13 PM
Be reasonable. Just the mere mention of Kentucky or Michigan calls to mind an image like the one I described. Anyone could have and would have made that leap. Therefore I contend that you did imply it; and even if you didn't my point still stands that bringing up Kentucky's freshmen in the context of this argument is ridiculous.
Don't put words in my mouth. Another fallacy. Only I know what I said or implied. Beat that straw man up to your heart's desire.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 05, 2018, 04:19:13 PM
Therefore I contend that you did imply it; and even if you didn't my point still stands that bringing up Kentucky's freshmen in the context of this argument is ridiculous.
Pretend I am Marshall McLuhan and you are the guy behind Woody Allen who thinks he knows what McLuhan is saying and implying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJ8tKRlW3E
Fine, but even if you didn't imply it, it's still a stupid argument to anyone that understands context. You can throw out all the debate jargon you want but as long as your argument and your buzzwords ignore the context of the argument and that is Valpo's 19 year old freshmen vs Kentucky's and what those respective schools are able to attract and provide then they hold absolutely no power in a real world argument which cannot be separated from its context.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 05, 2018, 02:46:50 PMQuote from: Valpo89 on January 05, 2018, 01:52:12 PMQuote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 10:48:59 AMThis team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.
It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before. I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons. I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but its very raw and not developed yet (they are mostly FR/SO) other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very pleased with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now. I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.
The guys on the roster currently would be role players on a good Valpo team....and in some cases that would be qualified with an "at best". What I meant by Peters covering up a lot of talent issue was that he was so good that the program was ultra competitive. Players such as Vashil, Hamminck et al were also good players who'd have the current group more competitive. My main point was that this team, as currently constructed, isn't all that talented. Whether it is a development issue is anyone's guess (mine is that it isn't to any great degree). Whether current ineligbles or signees would help is a question for next year. That's there for everyone to feel better about the future I guess.
The current roster doesn't have a whole lot of talent on it.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 05, 2018, 04:42:43 PM
Fine, but even if you didn't imply it, it's still a stupid argument to anyone that understands context. You can throw out all the debate jargon you want but as long as your argument and your buzzwords ignore the context of the argument and that is Valpo's 19 year old freshmen vs Kentucky's and what those respective schools are able to attract and provide then they hold absolutely no power in a real world argument which cannot be separated from its context.
Context has nothing to do with my argument. You have not shown that my argument is fallacious. You keep moving the goal posts and claiming that I said or implied things that I never said or implied. To continue further comment would be stupid. My last post on this. Slay away.
Also the idea that talent and finances should be ignored as relevant factors when discussing college basketball particularly when specific programs are being mentioned and compared is absolutely ludicrous. That you ignore context is utterly delusional. It's the strongest support your foolish argument has. The idea that Kentucky's success has anything to do with Valpo or is any reflection on Lottich is asinine. Criticize Lottich for his own failures all you want but not for failing to bring us to Kentucky's level. Which whether you implied it or not is what you did by bringing them up in the first place. I can't post on this topic anymore either. It's just not worth it. No use trying to argue with someone who refuses to understand.
Quote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 04:50:29 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on January 05, 2018, 02:46:50 PMQuote from: Valpo89 on January 05, 2018, 01:52:12 PMQuote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 10:48:59 AMThis team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.
It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before. I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons. I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but its very raw and not developed yet (they are mostly FR/SO) other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very pleased with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now. I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.
The guys on the roster currently would be role players on a good Valpo team....and in some cases that would be qualified with an "at best". What I meant by Peters covering up a lot of talent issue was that he was so good that the program was ultra competitive. Players such as Vashil, Hamminck et al were also good players who'd have the current group more competitive. My main point was that this team, as currently constructed, isn't all that talented. Whether it is a development issue is anyone's guess (mine is that it isn't to any great degree). Whether current ineligbles or signees would help is a question for next year. That's there for everyone to feel better about the future I guess.
The current roster doesn't have a whole lot of talent on it.
Peters freshmen year we still had (4) seniors: Capobianco, Jordan Coleman, Lavonte Dority and Mousa Gueye.
I respectfully disagree, what we are seeing is an All-Star game mentality. Solid talent with no cohesion to date.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on January 05, 2018, 06:43:26 AM
Criticize the slow starts the offensive struggles the weakness both physical and mental of our 7 footers the lack of cohesiveness etc. all you want but don't use the "Fab 5" (which Michigan cheated to get anyway ) or Calipari's recruits as if that's attainable for Valpo. A bunch of McDonald's All-American five star recruits playing at aP5 school with a $10million+ budget is going to look quite a bit different especially as freshmen than a bunch of 2-4 star kids at a mid major with a budget around $3million. I hope your mention of them was sarcastic.
And let the record show that the team known as the fab five did not win a single championship. Just sayin.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 05, 2018, 06:21:25 PMQuote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 04:50:29 PMQuote from: VU2014 on January 05, 2018, 02:46:50 PMQuote from: Valpo89 on January 05, 2018, 01:52:12 PMQuote from: JD24 on January 05, 2018, 10:48:59 AMThis team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.
That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.
It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before. I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons. I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but its very raw and not developed yet (they are mostly FR/SO) other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very pleased with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now. I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.
The guys on the roster currently would be role players on a good Valpo team....and in some cases that would be qualified with an "at best". What I meant by Peters covering up a lot of talent issue was that he was so good that the program was ultra competitive. Players such as Vashil, Hamminck et al were also good players who'd have the current group more competitive. My main point was that this team, as currently constructed, isn't all that talented. Whether it is a development issue is anyone's guess (mine is that it isn't to any great degree). Whether current ineligbles or signees would help is a question for next year. That's there for everyone to feel better about the future I guess. The current roster doesn't have a whole lot of talent on it.
Peters freshmen year we still had (4) seniors: Capobianco, Jordan Coleman, Lavonte Dority and Mousa Gueye. I respectfully disagree, what we are seeing is an All-Star game mentality. Solid talent with no cohesion to date.
Remove Peters from the team his jr and sr seasons and the team is a middle of the pack Horizon League team. The current team is that team less some players such as Vashil and Hamminck....or....not real talented overall. That's what Peters did for the program. Currently, the talent level will produce poor MVC results. A more developed current roster will produce mediocre MVC results. That doesn't represent a particularly talented roster in my view.
Several have been disappointed with the grit of our 7 footers and lack of rebounding. Rightfully so.
However many 7 footers are not good at rebounding. My opinion is that our 7 footers need to box out and let the more athletic guys go after the ball off the rim.
The problem is that our 7 footers opposing man is getting the rebound.
Quote from: JD24 on January 06, 2018, 10:48:58 AM
Remove Peters from the team his jr and sr seasons and the team is a middle of the pack Horizon League team. The current team is that team less some players such as Vashil and Hamminck....or....not real talented overall. That's what Peters did for the program. Currently, the talent level will produce poor MVC results. A more developed current roster will produce mediocre MVC results. That doesn't represent a particularly talented roster in my view.
Totally disagree, particularly with the 2015-16 team. That team had a great supporting cast around Peters.
Those teams weren't just Alec Peters. Such a lazy hot take. AP was obviously a huge piece of those team but a) it totally discounts how good the supporting casts were and b) it also discounts how weak the Horizon League is/was.
Keith Carter, Vashil Fernandez, Shane Hammink, Jubril, Darian Walker, David Skara, Lexus Williams, E. Victor Nickerson. Were mostly veteran players that could be players on any competitive MVC team this season.
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 06, 2018, 10:53:24 AM
Several have been disappointed with the grit of our 7 footers and lack of rebounding. Rightfully so.
However many 7 footers are not good at rebounding. My opinion is that our 7 footers need to box out and let the more athletic guys go after the ball off the rim.
The problem is that our 7 footers opposing man is getting the rebound.
A shorter Alec Peters averaged 10 rebounds in his senior year, and in his junior year he averaged 9, even though Vashil was averaging 8 per game that year. Smits and Sorolla are both averaging less than 4 this year, and Valpo has not played the toughest competition. Our big men should have learned from playing with Alec, and I would think they should be studying films of Alec on a regular basis. It is a matter of blocking out, being smart about anticipating the rebound, and being aggressive to the ball. They seem passive and intimidated by the possibility of being called for fouls, but they are getting in foul trouble anyway. Perhaps they will not be able to achieve the numbers Peters exhibited with his talent and heart, but they should be able to approach Vashil's 8 per game, and remember that Vashil had a problem with getting in foul trouble as well.
I watched the Oakland/Northern Kentucky game last night (NKU won at Oakland). Without Joe, those teams would kill us. With Joe we would still lose. Watching Oakland is like watching AAU. Watching NKU is to watch a very well coached team. They would be a very good addition to the Valley.
Quote from: vu72 on January 06, 2018, 11:20:49 AM
They (NKU) would be a very good addition to the Valley.
It would slightly "irk" me to see them get a Valley invite after not having to "earn it". Valpo really had to earn it's reputation over the course of decades as a strong mid-major program. NKU literally just jump from D2. Yes they've been strong the last 2 seasons but let's be honest they had a cake walk to the NCAA tourney because all they they didn't have to play any of the top seeds in MCM. They also barely beat a injured and depleted VU team on their own home court last season. I'll admit they are good this season though. I'm not sure they're head coach will be sticking around for long. His name was popping up for bigger jobs last season (he signed an extension but that means nothing).
I'd prefer Belmont and Murray State.
Quote from: vu72 on January 06, 2018, 11:20:49 AM
I watched the Oakland/Northern Kentucky game last night (NKU won at Oakland). Without Joe, those teams would kill us. With Joe we would still lose. Watching Oakland is like watching AAU. Watching NKU is to watch a very well coached team. They would be a very good addition to the Valley.
And theoretical Oakland would beat a theoretical YSU in the 2017 Horizon League tournament.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 06, 2018, 11:14:55 AM
Quote from: JD24 on January 06, 2018, 10:48:58 AM
Remove Peters from the team his jr and sr seasons and the team is a middle of the pack Horizon League team. The current team is that team less some players such as Vashil and Hamminck....or....not real talented overall. That's what Peters did for the program. Currently, the talent level will produce poor MVC results. A more developed current roster will produce mediocre MVC results. That doesn't represent a particularly talented roster in my view.
Totally disagree, particularly with the 2015-16 team. That team had a great supporting cast around Peters.
Those teams weren't just Alec Peters. Such a lazy hot take. AP was obviously a huge piece of those team but a) it totally discounts how good the supporting casts were and b) it also discounts how weak the Horizon League is/was.
Keith Carter, Vashil Fernandez, Shane Hammink, Jubril, Darian Walker, David Skara, Lexus Williams, E. Victor Nickerson. Were mostly veteran players that could be players on any competitive MVC team this season.
Feels like he's just trying to get our panties in a twist. If not, I've finally found a Valpo "fan" more pessimistic than myself!!!
Quote from: VU2014 on January 06, 2018, 11:14:55 AMQuote from: JD24 on January 06, 2018, 10:48:58 AMRemove Peters from the team his jr and sr seasons and the team is a middle of the pack Horizon League team. The current team is that team less some players such as Vashil and Hamminck....or....not real talented overall. That's what Peters did for the program. Currently, the talent level will produce poor MVC results. A more developed current roster will produce mediocre MVC results. That doesn't represent a particularly talented roster in my view.
Totally disagree, particularly with the 2015-16 team. That team had a great supporting cast around Peters. Those teams weren't just Alec Peters. Such a lazy hot take. AP was obviously a huge piece of those team but a) it totally discounts how good the supporting casts were and b) it also discounts how weak the Horizon League is/was. Keith Carter, Vashil Fernandez, Shane Hammink, Jubril, Darian Walker, David Skara, Lexus Williams, E. Victor Nickerson. Were mostly veteran players that could be players on any competitive MVC team this season.
It's not a lazy take. It's the truth. Those teams would have been better than the current team for sure but having the very high end player hid a lot of weaknesses. The loss of Alec has exposed the program. Why this has occurred I'm not sure but it is a trend, along with the academic issues, which needs to end.
Quote from: JD24 on January 07, 2018, 02:37:54 PM
It's not a lazy take. It's the truth. Those teams would have been better than the current team for sure but having the very high end player hid a lot of weaknesses. The loss of Alec has exposed the program. Why this has occurred I'm not sure but it is a trend, along with the academic issues, which needs to end.
You are essentially saying Valpo was a one man band. That simply isn't true. If you did a little research you would find that Valpo received a perfect APR score last year. Jubril was actually a good student who made an idiotic mistake and was egregiously over punished for that mistake. With Joe they took a risk on a kid who had academic issues at his previous school and it didn't work out here. It is what it is but it's not an epidemic with VU by any means.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 07, 2018, 02:55:40 PMQuote from: JD24 on January 07, 2018, 02:37:54 PMIt's not a lazy take. It's the truth. Those teams would have been better than the current team for sure but having the very high end player hid a lot of weaknesses. The loss of Alec has exposed the program. Why this has occurred I'm not sure but it is a trend, along with the academic issues, which needs to end.
You are essentially saying Valpo was a one man band. That simply isn't true. If you did a little research you would find that Valpo received a perfect APR score last year. Jubril was actually a good student who made an idiotic mistake and was egregiously over punished for that mistake. With Joe they took a risk on a kid who had academic issues at his previous school and it didn't work out here. It is what it is but it's not an epidemic with VU by any means.
You're interpreting what I said to mean something I'm not. What I'm saying is that an elite player for his league such as Alec Peters can cover for a lot of weaknesses. Had Peters not been around and Valpo finishes 4th or 5th in the Horizon League, I think everyone has a completely different view of the program. That doesn't mean the team was completely devoid of talent as it is closer to this season but without him, the team wasn't all that great.
In terms of the academic issues, all of them can always be explained away. I know all about Jubril which, quite frankly, made the move even stupider than it would be for a player who'd been struggling. He was on a national council for education in sports for chrissakes.
This is two years in a row there's been an issue. I'd hope this would be recognized by those who should.
Quote from: JD24 on January 07, 2018, 05:16:46 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on January 07, 2018, 02:55:40 PMQuote from: JD24 on January 07, 2018, 02:37:54 PMIt's not a lazy take. It's the truth. Those teams would have been better than the current team for sure but having the very high end player hid a lot of weaknesses. The loss of Alec has exposed the program. Why this has occurred I'm not sure but it is a trend, along with the academic issues, which needs to end.
You are essentially saying Valpo was a one man band. That simply isn't true. If you did a little research you would find that Valpo received a perfect APR score last year. Jubril was actually a good student who made an idiotic mistake and was egregiously over punished for that mistake. With Joe they took a risk on a kid who had academic issues at his previous school and it didn't work out here. It is what it is but it's not an epidemic with VU by any means.
You're interpreting what I said to mean something I'm not. What I'm saying is that an elite player for his league such as Alec Peters can cover for a lot of weaknesses. Had Peters not been around and Valpo finishes 4th or 5th in the Horizon League, I think everyone has a completely different view of the program. That doesn't mean the team was completely devoid of talent as it is closer to this season but without him, the team wasn't all that great.
In terms of the academic issues, all of them can always be explained away. I know all about Jubril which, quite frankly, made the move even stupider than it would be for a player who'd been struggling. He was on a national council for education in sports for chrissakes.
This is two years in a row there's been an issue. I'd hope this would be recognized by those who should.
Think we should probably retire this topic?
Actually no. It should be an independent string. I too have some questions about how these two kids have been (1) briefed (AKA orientation/indoctrination/expectations), and (2) supervised/monitored/advised by the MBB program
The fact that Joe had academic difficulties at another institution should have been a red flag to the staff to stay on his butt from the time he enrolled and to ensure that periodic progress reports were constantly processed through the MBB office.
I think it might have been assumed (incorrectly) that Valpo students know what to do to academically excel. Sorry, some kids ( and they are kids), and especially most athletes, might have other priorities. As a D-I, we recruit top flight AAU players and there is a risk to that. As an academically intense institution, to compensate we need to be more vigilant, proactive, and, yes, more supervisory in our approach.
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 07, 2018, 08:50:30 PM
Actually no. It should be an independent string. I too have some questions about how these two kids have been (1) briefed (AKA orientation/indoctrination/expectations), and (2) supervised/monitored/advised by the MBB program
The fact that Joe had academic difficulties at another institution should have been a red flag to the staff to stay on his butt from the time he enrolled and to ensure that periodic progress reports were constantly processed through the MBB office.
I think it might have been assumed (incorrectly) that Valpo students know what to do to academically excel. Sorry, some kids ( and they are kids), and especially most athletes, might have other priorities. As a D-I, we recruit top flight AAU players and there is a risk to that. As an academically intense institution, to compensate we need to be more vigilant, proactive, and, yes, more supervisory in our approach.
Write your congressman.
Gave a kid a shot that had a lot of upside. If this exact scenario happens 2-3 more times, then we can talk.
Jubril / Skara was as different as academics can get.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 07, 2018, 09:15:29 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 07, 2018, 08:50:30 PM
Actually no. It should be an independent string. I too have some questions about how these two kids have been (1) briefed (AKA orientation/indoctrination/expectations), and (2) supervised/monitored/advised by the MBB program
The fact that Joe had academic difficulties at another institution should have been a red flag to the staff to stay on his butt from the time he enrolled and to ensure that periodic progress reports were constantly processed through the MBB office.
I think it might have been assumed (incorrectly) that Valpo students know what to do to academically excel. Sorry, some kids ( and they are kids), and especially most athletes, might have other priorities. As a D-I, we recruit top flight AAU players and there is a risk to that. As an academically intense institution, to compensate we need to be more vigilant, proactive, and, yes, more supervisory in our approach.
Write your congressman.
Gave a kid a shot that had a lot of upside. If this exact scenario happens 2-3 more times, then we can talk.
Jubril / Skara was as different as academics can get.
And another point, it's obvious that Jubril/Skara happened during Drew's tenure. So.....
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink (be intelligent).
Sometimes, it's easy to forget that college is very difficult for most people, as evidenced by the fact that only 3 in 10 adults in the U.S. have a 4-year degree. Having a strong support system is great, but academic success requires more than studying, writing papers and turning in assignments. More than memorization and rote, a lot of courses require high-level critical thinking skills to understand concepts, apply principles, and pass exams. Multiply that times 4 or 5 for full-time students and it becomes that much harder. For athletes add in time for practice, games and travel, and it becomes harder yet.
I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone. I'm just making the point that when a student athlete falls through the cracks, it's not always about lack of effort by the individual or a systemic failure by the athletic department.
I agree with you to a large extent, WH, that sometimes kids will fall through a crack. However, when we recruit and admit a student athlete who might be vulnerable to having a difficult time academically and also expect that athlete to put in the time (practice and travel) necessary to meet the rigors of D-I basketball, we are operating at risk. To mitigate that risk, we need to limit the number and width of those cracks for both the kid as well as the program. He/she should have a very strong support network built around him/her. Either do that or don't take that risk at all -- for both the kid's sake as well as the program's.
None of us knows the full Burton story and, like many, I am merely speculating. He, obviously, managed to maintain academic elegibility his entire redshirt year. What changed? The added travel time away from class once he was active on the roster? Tougher classes as he moved into higher level courses? Doing well in class up to finals and then failing one or more at the very end? My point, and I don't need the help of my congressman on this, is that when an institution commits to D-I athletics, it commits to an intense world that places considerable demands on players and that includes dealing with academics in a stressful, time constrained environment that many other students never experience. Most solid programs institute an academic support program to ensure that players get the individual help they need in order to succeeed in the classroom and, therefore, athletically elegible. And waiting for academic issues to happen twice or three more times before you recognize it as a possible issue is irresponsible. As of today, though different in nature, Valpo has had two academic-related issues raised in two consecutive seasons. Both have hurt the MBB program significantly. Examine it. Evaluate it. Determine if there is something that is permitting this to occur. If not, move on with business as usual. But if there are things that can be implemented that improve things, do them.
Maybe Burton just didn't show up to class, and/or actually try.
IMO, if that was the case, the burden is not only on him, but also the MBB staff for not knowing.
I feel like this would be a bigger concern if we were seeing the staff consistently taking in low academic achieving students and losing them.
yes we've had two issues in the last year but as I seem to recall the biggest frustration with Jubril was not that he was a struggling academic student but that he was a good student who, along with Skara, made a bad decision to take the easy way out in one class.
It also sounds like, from what I've heard, that the staff did put in considerable time and effort in his red shirt season with Joe but at some point some of it is on the kid. It's sad and frustrating, but college is hard, some people can do it, some can't. And the reason they can't can vary from laziness, to life skills, to drive, to natural ability. The coaching staff can make up for so much but they can't take the tests for them or funnel them into fake classes (or at least, they shouldn't).
I feel like there is a lot of assuming going on that this could have been prevented easily vs just being a sad situation all around.
Quote from: crusader05 on January 08, 2018, 04:06:28 PM
I feel like this would be a bigger concern if we were seeing the staff consistently taking in low academic achieving students and losing them.
This remains my opinion too.
And I aggressively dislike the word "systemic" for no rational reason other than its recent overuse!!!
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 08, 2018, 05:16:33 PM
Quote from: crusader05 on January 08, 2018, 04:06:28 PM
I feel like this would be a bigger concern if we were seeing the staff consistently taking in low academic achieving students and losing them.
This remains my opinion too.
And I aggressively dislike the word "systemic" for no rational reason other than its recent overuse!!!
So you are saying the overuse of the word "systemic" has become a systemic problem throughout the general public's vocabularic system in the recent past? ;)
In case you're wondering
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vocabularic