Coming from someone who told ML that I thought his hire of Lottich was a good decision, it took a few years of the same old same old to realize I was wrong. But I waited to see the evidence.
An Olympic athelete responded to a question asking "do you view this season as a failure?" His response exempifies, in my view, how we should view an unsuccessful first season, or even an "unsuccessful" season the first two or three years.
https://twitter.com/willmaup/status/1651816167470952451
I definitely don't view it as a failure. It seems hypocritical of us to bemoan students who jump into the transfer portal for searching for the immediate upgrade vs sticking around to build something and than demand of an entire coaching staff immediate success or really any success, especially when they are not walking into a successful program.
I want to see certain things from Roger that include: a clear vision for the future of the team, energy around coaching and leading the men, a clear offensive strategy and ability to adjust and think on his feet. None of those may result in wins but they would feel like a step forward.
What is horrible? If horrible is defined solely by the W-L record, that would be an unfair standard for year one. I believe Roger promised only two things: a fast paced game coupled with intense defense. That's what we need to see every game — win or lose ( and we will lose). That, to me, is first year success. First year failure to me would be if neither of these two style characteristics are in evidence and a team identity is not created.
In my view, I hope we have a team on the floor made up of five John Kisers running around giving themselves up on every play. And when they lose, and they will to more talented teams, I want to feel that every player gave their best effort and played intelligent ball and every coach made the best in-game decisions to be competitive. Simple as that.
All I'm looking for is something I didn't have in the Lottich era for a long time: Hope. The W-L record can be similar this year but as long as there is hope as in clear signs of the team improving and taking on a vision and an identity--a lasting identity that sticks (something Lottich never had) it won't be a failure. We need to remember that we were at the point where Lottich's performance every year was such a failure that we weren't even considering it a failure anymore. At the point Lottich left us in virtually nothing Powell does in year one can be a failure. It's a total free roll for him.
I don't mind it at all when The Rev says Beacon of Light or promotes the two new mascots so that is progress...
I think everyone kind of expects next year to be bad with the timing of the change and player retentions, so I kind of struggle coming up with a scenario to define horrible/failure. We have to keep in mind Powell's learning the ropes as he goes along next year too.
As others have mentioned, Lottich results were so bad we stopped labeling it a failure and looked for any and all reasons to be optimistic. I don't think we will get to that point next year. And the second, which ties in with the first, is hope. It's been a long time since there's been hope in the program. We've invested in the entire coaching staff and have too much talent there to not provide glimpses of hope for the future even if the results are not stellar next season.
I think a lot of what we see or hope to see relative to success or failure will end up coming from Roger himself. If you watched the Matt Lottich coaches show if was a bunch of excuses and outright apathy. Roger will present an attitude much more upbeat and I suspect we'll see the same from his players. Run and gun will require athleticism. I expect to see a bunch of Ibra Bayu types who hopefully can shoot just a little better!
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 28, 2023, 12:04:05 PM
All I'm looking for is something I didn't have in the Lottich era for a long time: Hope. The W-L record can be similar this year but as long as there is hope as in clear signs of the team improving and taking on a vision and an identity--a lasting identity that sticks (something Lottich never had) it won't be a failure. We need to remember that we were at the point where Lottich's performance every year was such a failure that we weren't even considering it a failure anymore. At the point Lottich left us in virtually nothing Powell does in year one can be a failure. It's a total free roll for him.
This captures my feelings pretty well. We talk about something being reduced to "a pile of rubble." I'm not sure but what that understates the mess that Roger inherited. Even a pile of rubble might have a usable cornerstone or 2 somewhere underneath. We have none - (1) no returning players to build from, (2) no established recruiting network, (3) program standing and reputation destroyed, (4) inferior facilities, (5) lack of proven institutional support, (6) committed fan/student support destroyed, (7) local press coverage/visibility dead. If, by the the end of next season, we witness identifiable improvement in all of indicators 1-6, that will meet my definition of first year success.
I think the biggest thing Roger can do is show us that he has a clue of what he's doing X's and O's wise on the sidelines. We never got that indication from Lottich and it was a persistent question before it became obvious. Do that and we'll know we're in good hands and that the future is secure. That alone will make the first year a success him showing competency (and I am more than confident that he will) as a coach and as a leader which strikes me as a strong suit of his given how he speaks is the most important factor in giving fans the hope I spoke about in my earlier post. As frustrating as it is that we don't have any new players to look forward to yet I just know he'll find the right fits and show right away what a strong coaching acumen he possesses.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 28, 2023, 01:25:02 PM
I think the biggest thing Roger can do is show us that he has a clue of what he's doing X's and O's wise on the sidelines. We never got that indication from Lottich and it was a persistent question before it became obvious. Do that and we'll know we're in good hands and that the future is secure. That alone will make the first year a success him showing competency (and I am more than confident that he will) as a coach and as a leader which strikes me as a strong suit of his given how he speaks is the most important factor in giving fans the hope I spoke about in my earlier post. As frustrating as it is that we don't have any new players to look forward to yet I just know he'll find the right fits and show right away what a strong coaching acumen he possesses.
This too! :)
I will be disappointed if Coach Powell makes any references to "Beacons of Light" and/or the therapy dogs
Quote from: valpo64 on April 28, 2023, 01:47:12 PM
I will be disappointed if Coach Powell makes any references to "Beacons of Light" and/or the therapy dogs
https://twitter.com/rogerpowelljr/status/1651950374075367424?s=61&t=rvVIRCc0Iy1MgHjjNd30UA
Apparently no one listened to athlete mentioned in my OP. Here it is:
https://twitter.com/olympics/status/1651609569855000577?s=61&t=rvVIRCc0Iy1MgHjjNd30UA
Quote from: valpo64 on April 28, 2023, 01:47:12 PM
I will be disappointed if Coach Powell makes any references to "Beacons of Light" and/or the therapy dogs
Yes, it's a dumb name, but let's not lose sight of those who invented the "Crusader problem' - juveniles dressed up as adult educators, stirring up easily influenced, eager-to-please children to participate in one of their "go woke, go broke" self-gratification activities.
The only way it could be a "horrible" year for me is if we see warning signs that the hiring of Coach Powell was a mistake from a standpoint of competence or character. I highly, highly doubt that will occur.
Otherwise, we may have a rough sense of the likely ceiling for this team based on a look at the roster and its performance in the early games. We all have to be ready for the possibility that the 23-24 team will have a worse W-L record than the 22-23 team. After all, VU will be putting the equivalent of an expansion team on the floor.
If the 23-24 season produces a handful of players who can become part of a winning roster during seasons to come and a team that plays a fun, exciting, competitive brand of basketball, then it will be a success. Anything above .500 makes Coach Powell MVC Coach of the Year material.
We have good coaches and a team to be named later. With that as my starting point I'm predicting more MVC wins in 2023-24 than 22-23. Failure will be 5 or fewer Valley wins. :o I know that might sound a little crazy but as a Valpo fan I have never been quite right.
Quote from: vu72 on April 28, 2023, 01:13:58 PMI expect to see a bunch of Ibra Bayu types who hopefully can shoot just a little better!
One of my thoughts for success would be if The Rev would be able to help Ibra control his emotions, so his behavior won't be a liability.
To bring it a bit more to the topic of Giannis's answer which is to not sum up the essence of a career or a reason based on "winning it all" etc. I think it will be a challenge, and a good one, for us as fans to not treat it like we are owed immediate tournament wins and berths, or even to act like that's the only true sign of saying we have built a successful program in the first 5 years. I would say it's hard to say having a bad or horrible year (however you choose to define it) wouldn't be a failure for Powell unless he does not learn from it or we don't build from it eventually. I do think we may need to temper expectations and not expected Roger to get us to pre-lottich levels even 2-3 years out. But, it's in a lot of people's nature to look or revel in the negative. I have fellow alums who seemed to love to express their frustration with Lottich and all the ways the admin messed up who have hardly acknowledged Powell's hiring which makes me think they liked being mad at Valpo basketball more than they liked Valpo Basketball. If the only way you can think your team is successful is if its' giving you the adrenaline rush from winning constantly that's a recipe for looking for failure.
I can even see it hear a bit. A whole lot of energy about the search and excitement but always those occasional posts about why is it taking so long for staff. someone must have turned us down, why don't we have more recruits, we have nothing good left...etc etc. Sometimes being angry about losing can be just as difficult of a mindset to shake and can lead you to start to see failure lurking around every corner and read every thing as proof we are bad at X.
No. As long as he develops young talent. Establishes the culture and style of play it could still be a "successful" season.
This is definitely not going to be an overnight fix.
Quote from: wh on April 28, 2023, 01:23:34 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on April 28, 2023, 12:04:05 PM
All I'm looking for is something I didn't have in the Lottich era for a long time: Hope. The W-L record can be similar this year but as long as there is hope as in clear signs of the team improving and taking on a vision and an identity--a lasting identity that sticks (something Lottich never had) it won't be a failure. We need to remember that we were at the point where Lottich's performance every year was such a failure that we weren't even considering it a failure anymore. At the point Lottich left us in virtually nothing Powell does in year one can be a failure. It's a total free roll for him.
This captures my feelings pretty well. We talk about something being reduced to "a pile of rubble." I'm not sure but what that understates the mess that Roger inherited. Even a pile of rubble might have a usable cornerstone or 2 somewhere underneath. We have none - (1) no returning players to build from, (2) no established recruiting network, (3) program standing and reputation destroyed, (4) inferior facilities, (5) lack of proven institutional support, (6) committed fan/student support destroyed, (7) local press coverage/visibility dead. If, by the the end of next season, we witness identifiable improvement in all of indicators 1-6, that will meet my definition of first year success.
It is reality but that is really, really depressing.
Failure should not be defined just by wins and losses. If the product on the floor isn't as talented as the other teams, you expect the players to be positioned to be as successful as their talent allows. Did they get open shots? Fight for rebounds? Does the offensive system give them the best opportunities? I did not lcare for Lottichs systems. They were ineffective and I think the team was frustrated with that ineffectiveness.
I would hope by year two we see a huge improvement over next year. And again the year after. That's the dream.
This will hopefully be a start of a new era for Valpo basketball.
I think it's going to be pretty difficult to call the first season a "failure." Valpo didn't fire Matt Lottich because the program was heading in a good direction. The transfer portal only exasperates this issue, as now he's left to fill the majority of a roster. To expect anything more than finishing towards the bottom of the league would be misguided, but we all can hope that at bare minimum, we see signs of really positive things to come.
It's going to be tough for this year to be successful from a competitive standpoint. We're only 7 players away from having a solid 7 man rotation.
That's going to be tough to change over the next many weeks.
I have faith that the program will begin to move forward but the roster is essentially empty at this point.
Quote from: JD24 on April 30, 2023, 11:37:35 PMWe're only 7 players away from having a solid 7 man rotation.
Very true, but Roger is not yet just signing bodies to fill out the 23-24 roster. We will have a team this year and the fewer one year fill ins the better.
So far I like His approach for completing the roster. My impression is that he isn't just signing anybody to get numbers but being selective in giving out offers...a good long-range approach.
It's so sad to me to watch grown men constantly cry and whine over a nickname and a mascot. I think they are lame too. But the extreme snowflake-y feelings about them is highly hypocritical, as these are the same people who called the anti-"crusader" crowd whiney. Get over your pouty feelings about the mascot. It's over.
We are Valpo. We are here to talk basketball. It's just exhausting to hear grown adults whine over nothing endlessly.
To the actual point at hand....I expect it to be a tough year under touch circumstances. With the heavy transfer environment of college hoops now, coaches don't need 5-6 years to bring in "their guys". Three years should be plenty of time to tell the Rev's tale. I am here to support him (even if he says just unspeakable and hurtful things to our boomer fans, like "Beacon")
Horrible, by definition per Merriam Webster, is as follows:
Marked by or arousing painful and intense fear, dread, dismay, or aversion: marked by or arousing horror
a horrible accident.
Extremely bad or unpleasant, a horrible mistake
I cannot think of anything that would denote a "horrible" first season for the Rev. Not happening. Plain & Simple.
I get it cmack --- but the mascots still suck.
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 01, 2023, 03:01:18 PM
I get it cmack --- but the mascots still suck.
So you are thinking that the mascots are a failure but not a horrible failure. Agree.
Don't know what is worse...the mascots or the name Beacons. Let's face it, who cares? They are both bad. :)
The mascots.they should do a halftime show with Dora the Explorer.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 01, 2023, 05:14:42 PM
Don't know what is worse...the mascots or the name Beacons. Let's face it, who cares? They are both bad. :)
A bad nickname, a bad set of mascots and 6 years of bad basketball.....Valpo hit rock bottom. The positive is the administration cleaned house and there is only one way to go from here and that is up!!!! And yes, the pups and lighthouses are coming along for the ride.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 01, 2023, 05:14:42 PM!!! And yes, the pups and lighthouses are coming along for the ride.
If I could have liked your last post 6 more times I would have :rotfl: :rotfl:
Anyway, to be blunt, complaining if Powell has a bad year is totally bogus, especially after 7 years of Lottich, and even worse, 4 years of Osteen (Carlson).
Quote from: VALPO LI on May 01, 2023, 07:08:23 PMAnd yes, the pups and lighthouses are coming along for the ride.
If they can play basketball maybe Roger can find them an open scholarship. I mean in recent years Sackey was a Greyhound and several of our centers had lighthouse mobility.
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 01, 2023, 07:46:32 PM
Anyway, to be blunt, complaining if Powell has a bad year is totally bogus, especially after 7 years of Lottich, and even worse, 4 years of Osteen (Carlson).
May I suggest a mild edit: "and even
much worse"? 🤣🤣🤣
Mascots are meant to be non-threatening figures meant to entertain children. See the Ohio State Buckeye. Everybody get a grip! This discussion ended months ago. GO BEACONS!!
Quote from: vu72 on May 02, 2023, 10:35:03 AM
Mascots are meant to be non-threatening figures meant to entertain children the child in all of us. See the Ohio State Buckeye. Everybody get a grip! This discussion ended months ago. GO BEACONS!!
There. I fixed it for you ;D
Quote from: vu72 on May 02, 2023, 10:35:03 AMMascots are meant to be non-threatening figures meant to entertain children. See the Ohio State Buckeye.
Glad you brought this up! The non-threatening buckeye flowers are deadly toxic to bees and nothing can survive eating quantities of buckeye nuts but squirrel. :o I think I should start a buckeye extinction movement. Anybody want to join?
Quote from: justducky on May 02, 2023, 12:41:44 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 02, 2023, 10:35:03 AMMascots are meant to be non-threatening figures meant to entertain children. See the Ohio State Buckeye.
Glad you brought this up! The non-threatening buckeye flowers are deadly toxic to bees and nothing can survive eating quantities of buckeye nuts but squirrel. :o I think I should start a buckeye extinction movement. Anybody want to join?
[/b]
Spoken like somebody who is a Michigan fan!
(https://fanbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2021/09/Arizona-State-Mascot.png?resize=768,512)(https://fanbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2021/09/Michigan-State-Mascot.png?resize=768,512)(https://fanbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2020/03/FSU-Mascot-e1663350286772.png)(https://blog.rentcollegepads.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/15073832009_f15a0c5801_o-624x936.jpg)(https://www.qualitylogoproducts.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/promo-u/college-mascots-best-worst-sexiest/purdue-pete.jpg)(https://www.qualitylogoproducts.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/promo-u/college-mascots-best-worst-sexiest/vili-the-warrior.jpg)(https://iowastartingline.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Thunder-640x360.jpeg)(https://iowastartingline.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Herky-GettyImages-1196904425-640x486.jpeg)
(https://cdn.streamlinehosting.net/valpoathletics/39C405EE-8816-435D-8D7F-401BBB14D7ED/28602L.jpg)
It's unfortunate that this is so divisive. I'll be glad when we're talking about games and go back to debating NCAA seedings like we did years ago.
I'm admittedly not part of the pro-dog group. I think that my problem is that I like to wear VU stuff to the games, and I have a hard time picturing the image of those dogs on the front of my sweatshirt(s).
I'll be curious as to whether the university goes all in, and puts those on a lot of the gear. If they do, I'll be curious as to the sales numbers. If sales are booming my fellow anti-doggers and me will need to re-think. People tend to vote with their money.
I think you have already seen the results that the "Beacon" nickname and the dog mascots have generated regarding sales of the new nickname on VU gear. To me it appears that sales are way down on shirts, sweatshirts, etc. that have those designations. Just look at people attending basketball or football games...you just don't see that many wearing the new look stuff. I have bought clothing since the changes have been made but NONE of it has the "Beacon" designation. Let's call it like it is...the changes were a flop. We will just have to live with them. Educators don't like to admit mistakes.
Omg, now we are speculating on merchandise sales based on zero information and completely misunderstanding what the point of a mascot. The dogs are not going on any gear. The soul purpose is to stand around and high five children. The gear will focus on Valpo and the shield with some Beacons. I mean honestly. It worries me that these things are such a struggle here. I can't imagine how often you cry and whine to your spouses/families/coworkers every day about a college student in a dog costume at a game that you attended 3 months ago.
No incoming recruit or potential game attendee gives a damn about the dogs or the Beacon. They aren't refusing to come over a stuffed animal suit. They can buy all the "VALPO" gear they want and all the shield gear they want. I agree with Paul. With each year, incoming classes well care zero percent that Valpo ever was a Crusader or ever had a creepy, sad-looking Crusader mascot loafing around the sidelines. Only the old and whiney will shake their fist at the cloud that is the mascot changes.
Anyone wanna talk basketball? Seems like an exciting time in the program to do so!
I agree with what you say...I just think it's kind of funny seeing how so many people get worked up about the name and mascots, which are a joke in themselves. After what we all have gone through the last few years with our MBB program we all deserve to have a little fun now and then. We all look forward to the upcoming season for sure.
Quote from: cmack on May 03, 2023, 09:05:21 AM
Omg, now we are speculating on merchandise sales based on zero information and completely misunderstanding what the point of a mascot. The dogs are not going on any gear. The soul purpose is to stand around and high five children. The gear will focus on Valpo and the shield with some Beacons. I mean honestly. It worries me that these things are such a struggle here. I can't imagine how often you cry and whine to your spouses/families/coworkers every day about a college student in a dog costume at a game that you attended 3 months ago.
No incoming recruit or potential game attendee gives a damn about the dogs or the Beacon. They aren't refusing to come over a stuffed animal suit. They can buy all the "VALPO" gear they want and all the shield gear they want. I agree with Paul. With each year, incoming classes well care zero percent that Valpo ever was a Crusader or ever had a creepy, sad-looking Crusader mascot loafing around the sidelines. Only the old and whiney will shake their fist at the cloud that is the mascot changes.
Anyone wanna talk basketball? Seems like an exciting time in the program to do so!
What he said!
The mascot question is a symbol for deeper cultural tensions within the VU community, just like the art sale proposal. It's not "just" about a mascot or "just" about selling paintings. There's more beneath that surface. And thus, the mascot change, and -- if it goes through -- the art sale, leave lasting bad feelings.
I did not feel strongly about the mascot change, but I know others still feel very differently. For those who opposed it, I hope that a winning basketball team will help to overcome those feelings. And if the team happens to reach the heights of Coach Powell's ambitions for it, I would want those folks -- including many with whom I have the privilege of interacting (and occasionally sparring 🤓) with on this board -- to be able to celebrate those moments unconditionally.
So, here's to a next great run for this basketball program.
Soon Roger will sign some players and I will stop all my idle time banter crap. Until then it is kind of fun. :) Yeah I know I should get a life.
Glad to hear some other people are having fun also. :) A passing thought...maybe the student section could be called the "dog pound." Sorry, just having a little fun. Let's play ball!!!
Personally, I'm at the point where I've moved beyond the mascots, arena, etc. as (for me) they were displaced by frustrations with the overall decline & state of affairs of the VU MBB program.
After they made the move, cut ties with Lottich, & brought in the Rev - I'm all in. Yes, it could be a bumpy road as the flight takes off, and we may hit some turbulence. But, I'm here for the ride. I'm back on the donor list and will renew my season tickets. Get some good merch out there in the fall & I'll buy it. Put some NIL things out there for alum, donors, & fans - I'll invest.
Colors, mascots, & crappy arenas aside - let's go!!!
No match for puppy dogs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxpVMg3pbHg
Depends. If he gets some good transfers, a bad season isn't good. If he improves each phase of season, and gets increasingly better commitments, I'm good.
We haven't improved over the season in several years
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