Although I actually have plenty to do, I found myself wondering how the league will look next year with all the big name departures. I did some research and found a few things of interest, at least to me!
Here we go:
Percentage of points scored lost to graduation:
Wright State 80
UIC 64
Loyola 49
Green Bay 44
Milwaukee 44
Butler 41
Valpo 39
Cleveland State 36
YSU 21
Detroit -0-
More important to this discussion is exactly who is graduating and how they influenced the league.
Starting with Wright State, they lose the most, in Troy Tabler, Ngai Evans, Cooper Land and Vaughn Duggins. Clearly they will be down a bunch and can't really see them in the top half of the conference.
Next you have UIC who loses Paul Carter and Robo Kreps plus three other role players. What can you say--the worst just got a lot worse.
Loyola loses four, led by Geoff McCammon and Terrance Hill as well as Andy Polka and Ryan Sterling. Can't see them in the top half either.
Our buddies Green Bay lose two of the quickest guards in the league in Rahman Fletcher and Bryquis Perine. I won't miss them one bit. If they can find some back court talent, they should be pretty solid next year even with the losses.
Milwaukee will take a step back with the loss of Tone Boyle and Ant Hill. Those guys have been Valpo killers and I'm glad to see them go.
Butler loses Matt Howard, Shawn Vanzant and Zach Hahn. Can't see how they will be the favorite next year but they do seem to find a way.
We all know about losing Cory, Howard and Mike.
CSU doesn't lose a large percentage of scoring but it is who they lose that is critical. You don't replace Norris Cole with just anybody. They also lose DeAndrey Brown at 8.6 ppg.
YSU in intriguing in that they do lose one of the leagues better players in Vytas Sulskis but that is it other than a small role player in Dan Boudler. This team will be scary as they beat Butler, took us to overtime, almost beat Milwaukee and will have virtually everyone back. Next year could be their breakout to respectability.
And then you have Detroit. Everyone back. They will be one of the favorites for sure.
The league loses some people who will be difficult to replace and I think that overall the league will be weaker. You don't lose people like Matt Howard or Norris Cole and expect everything to be the same.
If Butler repeats then Brad Stevens should go directly to the Hall of Fame. Don't get me wrong, they will be good with three starters returning, but, a player like Howard only comes along once every 20 years or so--a guy who had a big impact from the time he first set foot on the court as a freshman.
I like our chances--presuming that one bwood decides to stay put. I would think the coaches might have Detroit as the favorite, followed by Butler, us, CSU and then YSU followed by Green Bay, Milwaukee, Wright State, Loyola and then UIC.
Obviously, this is without regard to anyone coming in. If their is another McDonald's All American coming then things will be different. As we have seen with a guy like Jay Harris, regardless of how good they were in high school, it takes some time to get up to speed for the college game. That is, unless you are Matt Howard or Gordon Hayward.
Quote from: vu72 on March 23, 2011, 06:01:31 PM
As we have seen with a guy like Jay Harris, regardless of how good they were in high school, it takes some time to get up to speed for the college game. That is, unless you are Matt Howard or Gordon Hayward.
Well, McCallum jr did ok going up against all the great upperclassman guards this year ;)
Great analysis though VU72.
So the big 3 remaining questions for next year are:
1) Did Shelvin Mack just play himself into the NBA these past few weeks?
2) Will Homer come back?
3) Will Brandon Wood come back?
I'm looking forward to the Broekoff/Khylie Marshall and Chrishown/Jay Harris matchups the next couple years.
Quote from: valpo84 on March 26, 2011, 06:18:08 PM
I'm looking forward to the Broekoff/Khylie Marshall and Chrishown/Jay Harris matchups the next couple years.
Broekhoff and Khyle Marshall shouldn't be guarding each other. Well, Broekhoff may have to guard Marshall, but I don't see Butler using Marshall on Broekhoff. They do two very different things and both do them well. I'd probably take Marshall as Valpo doesn't have anybody else like him on the roster, but overall Broekhoff is better.
As for the Chrishawn vs. Jay Harris, that won't be all that close. Hopkins is just better. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes in the Elite 8 either. By the time he's a junior he'll be the best player on Butler's roster. That's saying something!
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 10:37:21 PM
As for the Chrishawn vs. Jay Harris, that won't be all that close. Hopkins is just better. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes in the Elite 8 either. By the time he's a junior he'll be the best player on Butler's roster. That's saying something!
I'm not sure he can stay eligible until his junior year.
Quote from: BigDWSU on April 02, 2011, 09:44:45 AM
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 10:37:21 PM
As for the Chrishawn vs. Jay Harris, that won't be all that close. Hopkins is just better. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes in the Elite 8 either. By the time he's a junior he'll be the best player on Butler's roster. That's saying something!
Acutally I just read an article about Chrishawn and his grades. Apparently he's doing very well and that was part of the focus of the article. He's taking his education seriously, and from the sounds of it, that was a problem in the past. My guess is he'll be eligible. Butler isn't the kind of school/program where that's a problem.
I'm not sure he can stay eligible until his junior year.
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 10:37:21 PM
Quote from: valpo84 on March 26, 2011, 06:18:08 PM
I'm looking forward to the Broekoff/Khylie Marshall and Chrishown/Jay Harris matchups the next couple years.
Broekhoff and Khyle Marshall shouldn't be guarding each other. Well, Broekhoff may have to guard Marshall, but I don't see Butler using Marshall on Broekhoff. They do two very different things and both do them well. I'd probably take Marshall as Valpo doesn't have anybody else like him on the roster, but overall Broekhoff is better.
As for the Chrishawn vs. Jay Harris, that won't be all that close. Hopkins is just better. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes in the Elite 8 either. By the time he's a junior he'll be the best player on Butler's roster. That's saying something!
Seeing that he Hopkins has basicly zero college experience, not sure where in the world you get him being so much better than Jay. If you just took his performance down at Butler (sixteen points??), while Hopkins sat on the bench, I suppose you could project Jay as being way better by his Junor year also.
I don't know who will be better but if you don't think Jay will be much better next year versus this year then perhaps you should have a chat with one of our coaches.
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2011, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 10:37:21 PM
Quote from: valpo84 on March 26, 2011, 06:18:08 PM
I'm looking forward to the Broekoff/Khylie Marshall and Chrishown/Jay Harris matchups the next couple years.
Broekhoff and Khyle Marshall shouldn't be guarding each other. Well, Broekhoff may have to guard Marshall, but I don't see Butler using Marshall on Broekhoff. They do two very different things and both do them well. I'd probably take Marshall as Valpo doesn't have anybody else like him on the roster, but overall Broekhoff is better.
As for the Chrishawn vs. Jay Harris, that won't be all that close. Hopkins is just better. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes in the Elite 8 either. By the time he's a junior he'll be the best player on Butler's roster. That's saying something!
Seeing that he Hopkins has basicly zero college experience, not sure where in the world you get him being so much better than Jay. If you just took his performance down at Butler (sixteen points??), while Hopkins sat on the bench, I suppose you could project Jay as being way better by his Junor year also.
I don't know who will be better but if you don't think Jay will be much better next year versus this year then perhaps you should have a chat with one of our coaches.
Boy, has this become a "slobber all over Butler" board lately, or what? The longer the season went on, the farther down the depth chart Hopkins went. He played very little and he had very little impact, positive or negative, on anything Butler did all season. He may develop into a fine player before it's over, but at this point to say "he's just plain better" than Harris after the Freshman season Hopkins DIDN'T have should be left to some clueless knucklehead on the Butler board.
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2011, 02:45:19 PM
Seeing that he Hopkins has basicly zero college experience, not sure where in the world you get him being so much better than Jay. If you just took his performance down at Butler (sixteen points??), while Hopkins sat on the bench, I suppose you could project Jay as being way better by his Junor year also.
I don't know who will be better but if you don't think Jay will be much better next year versus this year then perhaps you should have a chat with one of our coaches.
I'll look more closely once the season is over, but vu72 did a nice job on his initial analysis. As others have pointed out, whether or not Wood and Mack return (as well as Stevens) will have a significant impact on the outlook for both Valpo and Butler.
I'll also agree with you on the Hopkins discussion ... difficult to make any judgements at this point. Harris earned the opportunity for PT and made contributions. The Butler coaches are high on Hopkins and he's progressed enough that the staff felt confident putting him on the court against Florida in the Elite Eight. I think he'll be very good, but as you point out, he'll need to prove that on the court.
Interestingly, vu72 also had negative things to say about Butler's freshmen last year. Two of those guys who didn't contribute much as freshmen, Andrew Smith and Chase Stigall, will be starting in a National Championship game tomorrow. Thngs can change.
I did say that I wasn't all that impressed with Smith, who came in with very high marks from the Butler faithful. Not sure I said anything about Stigall and I'm still not sure what he brings to the table other than a spot up shooter. I said early in the year that he had made a big jump in his shooting, I do remember that.
The point in all this is that as freshman, it is difficult to truly judge, unless you are a McDonald's All American.
We just don't know about how that second year will work out for any of them. Homer likes to say that the biggest improvement is from the freshman to sophomore year, so it should be interesting.
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2011, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 10:37:21 PM
Quote from: valpo84 on March 26, 2011, 06:18:08 PM
I'm looking forward to the Broekoff/Khylie Marshall and Chrishown/Jay Harris matchups the next couple years.
Broekhoff and Khyle Marshall shouldn't be guarding each other. Well, Broekhoff may have to guard Marshall, but I don't see Butler using Marshall on Broekhoff. They do two very different things and both do them well. I'd probably take Marshall as Valpo doesn't have anybody else like him on the roster, but overall Broekhoff is better.
As for the Chrishawn vs. Jay Harris, that won't be all that close. Hopkins is just better. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes in the Elite 8 either. By the time he's a junior he'll be the best player on Butler's roster. That's saying something!
Seeing that he Hopkins has basicly zero college experience, not sure where in the world you get him being so much better than Jay. If you just took his performance down at Butler (sixteen points??), while Hopkins sat on the bench, I suppose you could project Jay as being way better by his Junor year also.
I don't know who will be better but if you don't think Jay will be much better next year versus this year then perhaps you should have a chat with one of our coaches.
I am just going on what I saw of Chrishawn in HS vs. Jay in college. At no point did I say that Jay wouldn't be a good player. I am just projecting Chrishawn to be better.
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 04, 2011, 02:33:13 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2011, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 10:37:21 PM
Quote from: valpo84 on March 26, 2011, 06:18:08 PM
I'm looking forward to the Broekoff/Khylie Marshall and Chrishown/Jay Harris matchups the next couple years.
Broekhoff and Khyle Marshall shouldn't be guarding each other. Well, Broekhoff may have to guard Marshall, but I don't see Butler using Marshall on Broekhoff. They do two very different things and both do them well. I'd probably take Marshall as Valpo doesn't have anybody else like him on the roster, but overall Broekhoff is better.
As for the Chrishawn vs. Jay Harris, that won't be all that close. Hopkins is just better. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes in the Elite 8 either. By the time he's a junior he'll be the best player on Butler's roster. That's saying something!
Seeing that he Hopkins has basicly zero college experience, not sure where in the world you get him being so much better than Jay. If you just took his performance down at Butler (sixteen points??), while Hopkins sat on the bench, I suppose you could project Jay as being way better by his Junor year also.
I don't know who will be better but if you don't think Jay will be much better next year versus this year then perhaps you should have a chat with one of our coaches.
I am just going on what I saw of Chrishawn in HS vs. Jay in college. At no point did I say that Jay wouldn't be a good player. I am just projecting Chrishawn to be better.
Not trying to split hairs, but did you see Jay play in high school where he was an Illinois Big School First Team All State player? High School is one thing, college is quite another issue.
Quote from: vu72 on April 04, 2011, 04:48:32 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 04, 2011, 02:33:13 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2011, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 10:37:21 PM
Quote from: valpo84 on March 26, 2011, 06:18:08 PM
I'm looking forward to the Broekoff/Khylie Marshall and Chrishown/Jay Harris matchups the next couple years.
Broekhoff and Khyle Marshall shouldn't be guarding each other. Well, Broekhoff may have to guard Marshall, but I don't see Butler using Marshall on Broekhoff. They do two very different things and both do them well. I'd probably take Marshall as Valpo doesn't have anybody else like him on the roster, but overall Broekhoff is better.
As for the Chrishawn vs. Jay Harris, that won't be all that close. Hopkins is just better. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes in the Elite 8 either. By the time he's a junior he'll be the best player on Butler's roster. That's saying something!
Seeing that he Hopkins has basically zero college experience, not sure where in the world you get him being so much better than Jay. If you just took his performance down at Butler (sixteen points??), while Hopkins sat on the bench, I suppose you could project Jay as being way better by his Junior year also.
I don't know who will be better but if you don't think Jay will be much better next year versus this year then perhaps you should have a chat with one of our coaches.
I am just going on what I saw of Chrishawn in HS vs. Jay in college. At no point did I say that Jay wouldn't be a good player. I am just projecting Chrishawn to be better.
Not trying to split hairs, but did you see Jay play in high school where he was an Illinois Big School First Team All State player? High School is one thing, college is quite another issue.
Can't say that I did, since I was not up for driving to Illinois to see Jay play. I likely would have been impressed. College and high school are two very different things, no doubt about it. I am also well aware of Jay's high school background (how could you be on this forum and not know?), but I also know that Chrishawn was the Indianapolis City player of the year averaging 25 pts per game, 7 rebounds and shooting 42% from three. Don't underestimate what he can and will bring to Butler in the coming years. All I know is I am looking forward to watching both players develop and improve!
Fair enough. It should be interesting indeed. Chrishawn's stats seem remarkably similar to Jay's high school numbers.
This from Mark Lazerus' column concerning his signing:
A First Team All-State selection by the Illinois Basketball Coaches Association and a Second Team All-State honoree by the Chicago Tribune, Harris averaged better than 28 points per game for the Wolves as a senior. He also posted 3.6 rebounds and 3.4 assists per game while shooting at a 44% clip from behind the 3-point line and 87% from the charity stripe.
Quote from: vu72 on April 04, 2011, 06:05:17 PM87% from the charity stripe.
thank god he continued to shoot well at the line this year. our team ft percentage would have been even worse, and i highly doubt that we'd have been in the running for the top of the conference with the rest of them... those freebies were anything but (which has been a rather bothersome problem for the last few years now).
Quote from: motowntitan on March 26, 2011, 05:58:44 PM
Quote from: vu72 on March 23, 2011, 06:01:31 PM
As we have seen with a guy like Jay Harris, regardless of how good they were in high school, it takes some time to get up to speed for the college game. That is, unless you are Matt Howard or Gordon Hayward.
Well, McCallum jr did ok going up against all the great upperclassman guards this year ;)
Great analysis though VU72.
So the big 3 remaining questions for next year are:
1) Did Shelvin Mack just play himself into the NBA these past few weeks?
2) Will Homer come back?
3) Will Brandon Wood come back?
1. He played himself into declaring. Don't know if he'll get drafted.
2. Yes.
3. No. He'll get bad advice, hire an agent, then be screwed (as will we) when he doesn't hook on with an NBA team.
Totally disagree with number 3. Wood will be back after finding out what he needs to improve on......
Homer isn't ready to give it up yet...so he'll be back too....
Don't think Mack has played himself into the NBA, but he needs to leave this year. I don't see them being anywhere near as good next year nationally, so he needs to take advantage now...same for Stevens. They will still be good, but I think everyone underestimated Matt Howard and what he means to that team, this year and last.....
Quote from: rlh on April 06, 2011, 01:43:02 PM
Totally disagree with number 3. Wood will be back after finding out what he needs to improve on......
Homer isn't ready to give it up yet...so he'll be back too....
Don't think Mack has played himself into the NBA, but he needs to leave this year. I don't see them being anywhere near as good next year nationally, so he needs to take advantage now...same for Stevens. They will still be good, but I think everyone underestimated Matt Howard and what he means to that team, this year and last.....
Interesting. That is exactly what many people, including Butler fans, said about Gordon Hayward last year yet the Bulldogs repeated their run to the National Championship game without Hayward. What makes Howard more valuable than Hayward now. I don't think you can count the Bulldogs or Coach Stevens out of anything in the post season.
I thought Howard was more valuable than people gave him credit for last year....He's a winner and one of the hardest workers I've ever watched. I see him as a more skilled Brian Cardinal....by the way, the story is that if Scott Martin, who transferred to Notre Dame, had not signed with Purdue, Howard was their next guy. That would have been interesting....all I'm saying about him is some guys are just winners overall, and I think he's one of them...just my opinion....
Quote from: rlh on April 06, 2011, 03:38:02 PM
I thought Howard was more valuable than people gave him credit for last year....He's a winner and one of the hardest workers I've ever watched. I see him as a more skilled Brian Cardinal....by the way, the story is that if Scott Martin, who transferred to Notre Dame, had not signed with Purdue, Howard was their next guy. That would have been interesting....all I'm saying about him is some guys are just winners overall, and I think he's one of them...just my opinion....
Just to clarify a bit, Purdue had its last scholarship offer out to both Martin and Howard ... Martin accepted first, so it was his.
As for Mack, I don't necessarily buy that he has to go now. His stock was high last summer, fell during the regular season, then elevated during the NCAAT.
If he stays, he would likely get more exposure on the World University Team and have a chance to improve on his regular season performance. I think he's an NBA player, but hope he stays for one more year.
Completely agree with Detroit being the favorite next season. CSU does have Brown coming back according to their assistant coach. Outside of Butler and Detroit hogging the 1 and 2 seeds next year I'd say the rest of the league, at the moment, is mediocre. I will wait and see what Wood decides before making any predictions on Valpo.
I wanted to clarify my post as well guys. I thought I read on the NWtimes about Homer possibly retiring. I don't want to be accused of starting rumors.
If Mack comes back, you still have Butler as a favorite, until someone knocks them off
I am going to agree that if Mack is back, Butler is still the favorite. They have enough back to be a very tough out for most teams. Mack, Andrew Smith, Khyle Marshall, Stigall, Nored, and Hopkins. There's even mention in the Indy Star that that only Andrew Smith is a for sure starter if Mack leaves because of the incoming class. I am not expecting much of a falloff even though Matt Howard was a big part of who they were.
We have already replaced Anthony Hill (or come close) with the JUCO big we brought in, Demetrius Harris.
Pending Jeter's possible departure (and perhaps his replacement if he does) the shooting guard we are recruiting visited last weekend. If we get him, there is no fall-off. He's a better, more consistent shooter than Boyle (44% from 3 last year in JUCO) and is very good on defense.
Should he come to Milwaukee, I'm picking us as champs next year. And I haven't done that since the last time we went to the tournament - I usually put us below what I expect, but I wouldn't see a hole.
Of course, should Jeter leave, his recruitment becomes tougher, but if we hire the right guy (i.e. the guy recruiting him), he likely commits anyways.
Hill is tough to replace, but in Harris we think we have that replacement.
Anybody who thinks Detroit will win the conference is forgetting that Ray Sr. is the coach, not Brad Stevens.
Any coach who has Eli Holman in the Horizon and doesn't run the ball through him on even 50% of possessions needs his head examined.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 18, 2011, 11:53:31 PM
We have already replaced Anthony Hill (or come close) with the JUCO big we brought in, Demetrius Harris.
Pending Jeter's possible departure (and perhaps his replacement if he does) the shooting guard we are recruiting visited last weekend. If we get him, there is no fall-off. He's a better, more consistent shooter than Boyle (44% from 3 last year in JUCO) and is very good on defense.
Should he come to Milwaukee, I'm picking us as champs next year. And I haven't done that since the last time we went to the tournament - I usually put us below what I expect, but I wouldn't see a hole.
Of course, should Jeter leave, his recruitment becomes tougher, but if we hire the right guy (i.e. the guy recruiting him), he likely commits anyways.
Hill is tough to replace, but in Harris we think we have that replacement.
Sure thing. You are going to replace an all conference first tamer with a JUCO. Was this guy a first team all american? Are you kidding me? So if we lose Brandon, we are bringing in an actual First Team Section 8 All American so we sure should be the favorite. Huh?? As for the other guy replacing Tone Boyle, think again about that too. Boyle and Hill were seniors. Kids just don't wanlz into D1 and star unless they are Brandon Wood.
I have no doubt Milwaukee will be competitive but let's calm down all of our expectations.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 19, 2011, 12:18:18 AM
Anybody who thinks Detroit will win the conference is forgetting that Ray Sr. is the coach, not Brad Stevens.
Any coach who has Eli Holman in the Horizon and doesn't run the ball through him on even 50% of possessions needs his head examined.
I can't argue your 1st point at this time.
However, if you look at our roster- we are the only team that had all 5 starters in double digits (and #6 at 8.6). The two biggest problems we had was no defense (my current theory is we played with only 10 players) and team chemistry- we had too many scorers. Our top six players all went for over 20 at least once. It is a nice problem to have- BUT it is still a problem going from game to game when everyone wants the rock.
Quote from: vu72 on April 19, 2011, 07:00:47 AM
Kids just don't wanlz into D1 and star unless they are Brandon Wood.
VU72
Brandon Wood waltzed into Southern Illinois and averaged 3.7 points as a Freshman- then sat a transfer year at Valpo (practicing the whole time) and then starred in what was practically his Junior year.
Give credit where credit is due- Ray McCallum Jr did quite well as a Freshman, playing against Jr's: Nored, Mack, Wood, Williams, Montgomery, Harmon. Sr's: Cole, Little, Kreps, Duggins, Evans, Boyle, Fletcher, and Perine.
The Horizon had the best combination of guards I think I have ever seen at once.
I also want to add my early preseason Horizon League Halves (in no order):
Top Half= Butler, Cleveland State, Detroit, Milw, and Valpo
With YSU as a darkhorse.
Bottom Half= UIC, Loyola, WSU, GB
motowntitan
Brandon Wood didn't sit out a transfer year at Valpo. He went to Southern Illinois as a freshman but then transferred to a Highland CC for his sophomore year before coming to Valpo.
http://www.valpoathletics.com/mbasketball/roster/179/3936/ (http://www.valpoathletics.com/mbasketball/roster/179/3936/)
Quote from: motowntitan on April 20, 2011, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 19, 2011, 12:18:18 AM
Anybody who thinks Detroit will win the conference is forgetting that Ray Sr. is the coach, not Brad Stevens.
Any coach who has Eli Holman in the Horizon and doesn't run the ball through him on even 50% of possessions needs his head examined.
I can't argue your 1st point at this time.
However, if you look at our roster- we are the only team that had all 5 starters in double digits (and #6 at 8.6). The two biggest problems we had was no defense (my current theory is we played with only 10 players) and team chemistry- we had too many scorers. Our top six players all went for over 20 at least once. It is a nice problem to have- BUT it is still a problem going from game to game when everyone wants the rock.
Quote from: vu72 on April 19, 2011, 07:00:47 AM
Kids just don't wanlz into D1 and star unless they are Brandon Wood.
VU72
Brandon Wood waltzed into Southern Illinois and averaged 3.7 points as a Freshman- then sat a transfer year at Valpo (practicing the whole time) and then starred in what was practically his Junior year.
Give credit where credit is due- Ray McCallum Jr did quite well as a Freshman, playing against Jr's: Nored, Mack, Wood, Williams, Montgomery, Harmon. Sr's: Cole, Little, Kreps, Duggins, Evans, Boyle, Fletcher, and Perine.
The Horizon had the best combination of guards I think I have ever seen at once.
To be fair, Wood was injured his freshman year at SIU and received a redshirt season. He also didn't sit out a year at Valpo because he transferred from a JUCO.
Quote from: motowntitan on April 20, 2011, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 19, 2011, 12:18:18 AM
Anybody who thinks Detroit will win the conference is forgetting that Ray Sr. is the coach, not Brad Stevens.
Any coach who has Eli Holman in the Horizon and doesn't run the ball through him on even 50% of possessions needs his head examined.
I can't argue your 1st point at this time.
However, if you look at our roster- we are the only team that had all 5 starters in double digits (and #6 at 8.6). The two biggest problems we had was no defense (my current theory is we played with only 10 players) and team chemistry- we had too many scorers. Our top six players all went for over 20 at least once. It is a nice problem to have- BUT it is still a problem going from game to game when everyone wants the rock.
Quote from: vu72 on April 19, 2011, 07:00:47 AM
Kids just don't wanlz into D1 and star unless they are Brandon Wood.
VU72
Brandon Wood waltzed into Southern Illinois and averaged 3.7 points as a Freshman- then sat a transfer year at Valpo (practicing the whole time) and then starred in what was practically his Junior year.
Give credit where credit is due- Ray McCallum Jr did quite well as a Freshman, playing against Jr's: Nored, Mack, Wood, Williams, Montgomery, Harmon. Sr's: Cole, Little, Kreps, Duggins, Evans, Boyle, Fletcher, and Perine.
The Horizon had the best combination of guards I think I have ever seen at once.
My comment was about JUCOs coming in and being an All conference player. It was addressed to panther who was telling us about the JUCO who was going to replace Ant Hill. Wood came to Valpo out of a JUCO, that was my point.
ysu as a dark horse for top half of the horizon? is that a joke? or have i missed something about them improving ridiculously in the off-season?
YSU brings everyone back except Solstis. Seeing that they took us to OT and beat Butler, also battled Milwaukee till late and beat Bowling Green as I recall, leaves many of us with an idea that they could be a tough out.
Quote from: motowntitan on April 20, 2011, 07:40:54 PM
I also want to add my early preseason Horizon League Halves (in no order):
Top Half= Butler, Cleveland State, Detroit, Milw, and Valpo
With YSU as a darkhorse.
Bottom Half= UIC, Loyola, WSU, GB
If you notice, most of the bottom half of the conference/league is made up of new coaches who will have relatively new recruiting classes and lineups. YSU doesn't fit the bottom half, as they did before, because they didn't change coaches recently, and they have a good amount of returnees for this coming season. WSU also doesn't totally fit this, but they have to find someone to replace Vaughn Duggins now.
You're right, we really don't have a history of all-conference JUCO's, vu72. Only James Eayrs, Tone Boyle, Ed McCants, Kaylon Williams (all-newcomer), Avery Smith, Boo Davis, ah well I think you get the point.
We lost Boyle, who had been not much more than a chucker by the end of his season, and Anthony Hill, who - you're absolutely right - was a dominant force down low.
But there's something else that I've got going with our recruits that I don't think anyone else does - I've seen them play. I could bore you with notes that you'd probably just dismiss as a fan's folly, so I won't go into detail.
Just don't expect a drop-off. We may have some time at the center position for Harris to gel, and from what I saw he didn't have as polished a low-post move as Hill, but that's really the only downgrade, and I'm not even sure that is when we add in James Haarsma (11 and 7 as a sophomore at Evansville in 09-10).
We lose essentially Anthony Hill (great) and Tone Boyle (decent). We gain what will be a six-man recruiting class in: Demetrius Harris (junior, banger, very strong, unpolished); Paris Gulley (junior, sharpshooter 46% 3PT and 85% FT, 14 ppg); Shaq Boga (freshman, fought off 4 Big Ten schools if you include Nebraska - NU, Minny, Iowa, Purdue - and all the top echelon MVC, 20 ppg 5 apg); JJ Panoske (freshman, 6'10'' PF, 2nd-rated WI player, great outside shot and solid post moves); James Haarsma (6'5'' bull-in-a-china-shop, 11 ppg 7 rpg soph. yr Evansville); and Evan Richard (looks like a manager but is matched in athleticism by only Ryan Allen - 40-inch vertical, scored 50 in a game as a senior, scored 26 ppg despite usually playing only 2-3 quarters per game senior yr).
I look at it in comparison to our own past - even in our Sweet 16 year, there's no way Evan Richard, a ridiculously talented scorer who has amazing athleticism would have redshirted. This past season, we were so deep in talent that guys who played a lot in the previous season (Lonnie Boga and Ryan Haggerty) had been pushed towards the back of the bench because of the influx of talent last season. Not only did Richard redshirt, but it looks like JJ Panoske is a prime candidate to redshirt. I've seen him play 5 times, and I'm confident that he'd be starting at the 4 for any of these schools: GB, WSU, YSU, UIC, LUC (with Ben Averkamp at other forward). He's most likely redshirting as a freshman because of our incredible depth.
Our achilles heel of the last season was that when the going got tough, Kaylon Williams had a hard time holding onto the ball. This go-round, we have the most sought-after recruit in our history coming to back him up, as Shaq Boga turned down bona fide scholarship offers from Purdue and a host of Big Ten and MVC schools to play in Milwaukee with his brother Lonnie. It may not be the whole season before he gets the keys to the car, but even if we have to wait until 2012-13 for him to start, he'll be there with his ridiculously high A/TO ratio for a high school player to spell Kaylon Williams when he has an off night.
I said in an earlier post that if we got Paris Gulley and Larry Nance Jr., I'd be picking us to win the Horizon regardless of what Shelvin Mack does. I pride myself on not overblowing my preseason predictions - I haven't picked Milwaukee to win the conference since my freshman year of college, the last time we went to the NCAA Tournament and won both regular season and tourney championships. Well, we got our NLI from Paris Gulley today. I wish I could see the other teams' incoming players the way I've seen ours, because I'm damn excited about our prospects and want to make sure I'm not overlooking anyone else's incoming class. I still think, based on reports, that Cleveland State's Anton Grady will be the best incoming player, but Norris Cole will be a lot harder to replace than Anthony Hill and we have a full class coming in.
I just haven't had this much enthusiasm in five years. If we pick up Nance, I'm fully expecting a championship and an NCAA Tournament. If we don't, I expect we'll be very close to this year and possibly better.
As for other teams:
YSU will always be a tough out, especially at home, because of the chip on their shoulder. Hence the 30-point loss to Loyola, who was seen as lower-class with them last season.
If Brandon Wood is definitely gone, I just can't justify picking VU anywhere higher than 5th. I like Valpo, I like Broekhoff, I kinda like Harris, but I just can't see VU as good or better with Wood gone. If he is, you'll have the second-biggest drop-off in talent behind Butler and ahead of CSU.
The drop-off in talent, of course, is everywhere. All four of the teams at the top are losing top guns - Howard, Cole, Johnson, Hill - and great role players as well. Detroit, on the other hand, loses no one - but I've been pretty clear in my belief that Ray Sr. isn't doing the best job coaching the team. And the offseason isn't over - by this time last year, Xavier Keeling was still a Titan.
I get where you're coming from on our incoming class - a lot of them are sight unseen. I'm just sick to my stomach thinking that it's half a year before you guys get to see this Murderer's Row that Jeter and his staff have assembled.
Sounds like you guys have a lot of nice pieces coming in. Kind of sounds a lot like Detroit's situation this past year. It did take these guys a while before they started to gel. Having all this talent is one thing, learning to play together and maximize that talent is another. Hopefully (for your sake) your coach can get your guys to mesh quicker then Detroit did.
obviously panther is excited and it sure looks like he has good reason. My point was not that JUCOs can't make all conference, but rather that it is unusual for a newcomer, either freshman or JUCO to instantly have an all conference impact.
Remember our incoming class from two years ago was as highly regarded as any in recent memory, including the Australian High School Player of the Year, and an Indiana All Star starter. Oh yeah, a guy named Brandon Wood was in that group as well and we also added Cory Johnson, for his first year of eligibility. We finished tied for fourth. Now, we didn't have the returning guys that Milwaukee has and I think that's his point.
Detroit is an excellent example of how guys need to play together and panther is right that Jeter is a much better coach than McCallum.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 26, 2011, 02:54:51 AMI get where you're coming from on our incoming class - a lot of them are sight unseen. I'm just sick to my stomach thinking that it's half a year before you guys get to see this Murderer's Row that Jeter and his staff have assembled.
I'll be interested to see how long it takes Jeter to find a consistent rotation, which has historically been an issue for Milwaukee. He did a much better job this past season and the results were positive.
For what it's worth, I just checked JucoJunction/Rivals and they don't have any of Milwaukee's recruits, Juco or otherwise, ranked. They do have our guy Justin Edwards ranked No. 93 in their top 150 Juco guys. Just sayin.
Panther, you very well could be right in that next year might be the Panthers year. The only issue that Jeter seems to have to figure out is how to make sure that all those kids are able to find their rhythm on the floor.
What I'm looking forward to, whether or not Mack stays, is how good this younger group can be for Butler. I think both Jones (he may even start) and Woods are going to play some minutes for the Dogs next year, and the wild cards are Smeathers (6'7 G/F), Aldridge (6'1 G), and possibly another guard should Mack go. Overall, these kids are very athletic and should be very good defensively. Just the shooting that I'm worried about. I think Butler's probably another year away from being very, very good again.
Great point, zville.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 27, 2011, 04:19:40 PM
Great point, zville.
Thanks, Jimmy. I knew if I kept posting, I've eventually come up with something that somebody likes.
Quote from: valporun on April 22, 2011, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on April 20, 2011, 07:40:54 PM
I also want to add my early preseason Horizon League Halves (in no order):
Top Half= Butler, Cleveland State, Detroit, Milw, and Valpo
With YSU as a darkhorse.
Bottom Half= UIC, Loyola, WSU, GB
If you notice, most of the bottom half of the conference/league is made up of new coaches who will have relatively new recruiting classes and lineups. YSU doesn't fit the bottom half, as they did before, because they didn't change coaches recently, and they have a good amount of returnees for this coming season. WSU also doesn't totally fit this, but they have to find someone to replace Vaughn Duggins now.
and Evans, and Tabler, and Land. Not to mention the two other guards that left.
Also, my speculation was an early one. I will probably do a more complete version over the summer when we have a better idea of new arrivals and other transfer outs.
With Brandon's move to Michigan State seemingly sealed, here's my early projection for the coming year:
1, Butler -- How can you pick against the Bulldogs, with or without Shelvin Mack ... or Mark Shelvin?
2, Milwaukee -- There's just too much material here to place the Panthers outside the top two.
3, Cleveland State -- Anton Grady looks like the real thing, but Norris Cole won't be replaced easily.
4, Detroit -- This is a nod to raw talent (McCallum, Holman, Simon, Minerath) and an indictment of poor coaching.
5, Valparaiso -- I really like Broekhoff and Kenney, but Johnson, Wood, Little and Rogers mark a lot of turnover.
6, Youngstown State -- I'd like to place them higher, but history indicates that this is the Penguins' ceiling.
7, Green Bay -- I'm a big fan of Alec Brown, but the guard duo of Fletcher and Perine was this team's engine.
8, Wright State -- The two-year loss of Brown, Cooperwood, Duggins, Evans and Land catches up to the Raiders.
9, UIC -- Tough call between the Flames and LU; I'll give the nod to the team in its second season under new leadership.
10, Loyola -- Averkamp, Gibler are about all the Ramblers have to hang their hats on; they look to be a few years away.
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 03, 2011, 10:49:08 AM
With Brandon's move to Michigan State seemingly sealed, here's my early projection for the coming year:
1, Butler -- How can you pick against the Bulldogs, with or without Shelvin Mack ... or Mark Shelvin?
2, Milwaukee -- There's just too much material here to place the Panthers outside the top two.
3, Cleveland State -- Anton Grady looks like the real thing, but Norris Cole won't be replaced easily.
4, Detroit -- This is a nod to raw talent (McCallum, Holman, Simon, Minerath) and an indictment of poor coaching.
5, Valparaiso -- I really like Broekhoff and Kenney, but Johnson, Wood, Little and Rogers mark a lot of turnover.
6, Youngstown State -- I'd like to place them higher, but history indicates that this is the Penguins' ceiling.
7, Green Bay -- I'm a big fan of Alec Brown, but the guard duo of Fletcher and Perine was this team's engine.
8, Wright State -- The two-year loss of Brown, Cooperwood, Duggins, Evans and Land catches up to the Raiders.
9, UIC -- Tough call between the Flames and LU; I'll give the nod to the team in its second season under new leadership.
10, Loyola -- Averkamp, Gibler are about all the Ramblers have to hang their hats on; they look to be a few years away.
Where are you getting the Michigan State info??
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 03, 2011, 10:49:08 AM
With Brandon's move to Michigan State seemingly sealed, here's my early projection for the coming year:
1, Butler -- How can you pick against the Bulldogs, with or without Shelvin Mack ... or Mark Shelvin?
2, Milwaukee -- There's just too much material here to place the Panthers outside the top two.
3, Cleveland State -- Anton Grady looks like the real thing, but Norris Cole won't be replaced easily.
4, Detroit -- This is a nod to raw talent (McCallum, Holman, Simon, Minerath) and an indictment of poor coaching.
5, Valparaiso -- I really like Broekhoff and Kenney, but Johnson, Wood, Little and Rogers mark a lot of turnover.
6, Youngstown State -- I'd like to place them higher, but history indicates that this is the Penguins' ceiling.
7, Green Bay -- I'm a big fan of Alec Brown, but the guard duo of Fletcher and Perine was this team's engine.
8, Wright State -- The two-year loss of Brown, Cooperwood, Duggins, Evans and Land catches up to the Raiders.
9, UIC -- Tough call between the Flames and LU; I'll give the nod to the team in its second season under new leadership.
10, Loyola -- Averkamp, Gibler are about all the Ramblers have to hang their hats on; they look to be a few years away.
Like your breakdown. I think Detroit is my team to beat this year. But that is the only spot were we'd differ in opinion.
Fifth is fine with me, it will keep the target off our back. Yes, we lose a lot of scoring but with the guys coming in, don't expect a big drop off, probably none. I expect us to be in the hunt again next year and, if we can keep Kevin healthy or, if Vucic can contribute, then we can do something special.
Quote from: vu72 on May 03, 2011, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 03, 2011, 10:49:08 AM
With Brandon's move to Michigan State seemingly sealed, here's my early projection for the coming year:
1, Butler -- How can you pick against the Bulldogs, with or without Shelvin Mack ... or Mark Shelvin?
2, Milwaukee -- There's just too much material here to place the Panthers outside the top two.
3, Cleveland State -- Anton Grady looks like the real thing, but Norris Cole won't be replaced easily.
4, Detroit -- This is a nod to raw talent (McCallum, Holman, Simon, Minerath) and an indictment of poor coaching.
5, Valparaiso -- I really like Broekhoff and Kenney, but Johnson, Wood, Little and Rogers mark a lot of turnover.
6, Youngstown State -- I'd like to place them higher, but history indicates that this is the Penguins' ceiling.
7, Green Bay -- I'm a big fan of Alec Brown, but the guard duo of Fletcher and Perine was this team's engine.
8, Wright State -- The two-year loss of Brown, Cooperwood, Duggins, Evans and Land catches up to the Raiders.
9, UIC -- Tough call between the Flames and LU; I'll give the nod to the team in its second season under new leadership.
10, Loyola -- Averkamp, Gibler are about all the Ramblers have to hang their hats on; they look to be a few years away.
Where are you getting the Michigan State info??
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=43.msg1517#msg1517 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=43.msg1517#msg1517)
For the record, I think it's a bad thing for our league that Brandon is leaving Valpo.
But it's also not something for which I blame him; the rule exists and he's taking advantage.
I'll root for him any time he's not playing against a non-BCS school.
Quote from: valpo04 on May 03, 2011, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 03, 2011, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 03, 2011, 10:49:08 AM
With Brandon's move to Michigan State seemingly sealed, here's my early projection for the coming year:
1, Butler -- How can you pick against the Bulldogs, with or without Shelvin Mack ... or Mark Shelvin?
2, Milwaukee -- There's just too much material here to place the Panthers outside the top two.
3, Cleveland State -- Anton Grady looks like the real thing, but Norris Cole won't be replaced easily.
4, Detroit -- This is a nod to raw talent (McCallum, Holman, Simon, Minerath) and an indictment of poor coaching.
5, Valparaiso -- I really like Broekhoff and Kenney, but Johnson, Wood, Little and Rogers mark a lot of turnover.
6, Youngstown State -- I'd like to place them higher, but history indicates that this is the Penguins' ceiling.
7, Green Bay -- I'm a big fan of Alec Brown, but the guard duo of Fletcher and Perine was this team's engine.
8, Wright State -- The two-year loss of Brown, Cooperwood, Duggins, Evans and Land catches up to the Raiders.
9, UIC -- Tough call between the Flames and LU; I'll give the nod to the team in its second season under new leadership.
10, Loyola -- Averkamp, Gibler are about all the Ramblers have to hang their hats on; they look to be a few years away.
Where are you getting the Michigan State info??
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=43.msg1517#msg1517 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=43.msg1517#msg1517)
Hadn't heard about Fife going to be an assistant at MSU. MSU seems to have the lead...
Quote from: vu72 on May 03, 2011, 12:13:49 PM
Fifth is fine with me, it will keep the target off our back. Yes, we lose a lot of scoring but with the guys coming in, don't expect a big drop off, probably none. I expect us to be in the hunt again next year and, if we can keep Kevin healthy or, if Vucic can contribute, then we can do something special.
My biggest question is, who is going to start for you guys in the post? Here's what I have so far. Please correct me if your opinion differs.
PG - Jay Harris
WG - Matt Kenney
WG - Ryan Broekhoff
F - Kevin Van Wijk
PF - Richie Edwards?? Vucic?
I would say the Crusaders are probably looking at Erik Buggs at the point, Cameron Witt at the 4 and Kevin Van Wijk at center.
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 03, 2011, 01:41:59 PM
I would say the Crusaders are probably looking at Erik Buggs at the point, Cameron Witt at the 4 and Kevin Van Wijk at center.
Cameron Witt would possibly be the least effective starting 4 in the conference, and Van Wijk seems a little thin for the 5, no?
If Witt is starting we are doomed! Sorry Cameron. I'm not sure we need a guy who will post up. Driving and attacking the rim can be just as effective, assuming it can be accompanied by three point shooting.
Perhaps the Crusaders go small with Buggs, Harris, Kenney, Broekhoff and Van Wijk?
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 03, 2011, 02:10:21 PM
Perhaps the Crusaders go small with Buggs, Harris, Kenney, Broekhoff and Van Wijk?
That would be my guess. Broekhoff played the 4 spot most of last season and Kenney is a physical and athletic wing who can play the 3 in this league.
Van Wijk, if healthy, is the logical starter at the 5. If Edwards can play the 4 spot, that would give Valpo the chance to slide Ryan to the 3 and go to a more traditional lineup. In the end, Valpo will play a lot with 3 and 4 guard lineups (just like most other HL teams).
I think Edwards will be coming in as a starter at one of the forward positions. I still think that Jay is coming off the bench. He'll provide some instant offense and will probably get starter minutes each night when it is all said and done, IMO.
I, don't see Jay as a starter either. Erik is the point with Tommy playing the backup. That leaves Jay, who is a scorer first, to be able to move to the 2 and play there with Ben Boggs. Did you guys forget about the Virginia Tech transfer? Matt is the perfect replacement for Howard Little, a little bigger and probably a better scoring threat. Ryan of course is a starter as is Edwards. You don't keep a 6'8" guy who is as athletic as Edwards riding the pines.
So I see (after Dec 1) Buggs, Boggs, Broekhoff, Edwards and Kenney starting, backed up by Tommy, Jay, Kevin, Cam and either Vucic or Jakovic. That second unit could go pretty big, obviously. With Brandon gone we still have two slots to fill and Homer will probably save one for the following year to balance out the scholarship situation
That's a team that is 9 or 10 deep. It will be one that shares the scoring and will be plenty exciting to watch!
Quote from: vu72 on May 03, 2011, 04:56:24 PM
I, don't see Jay as a starter either. Erik is the point with Tommy playing the backup. That leaves Jay, who is a scorer first, to be able to move to the 2 and play there with Ben Boggs. Did you guys forget about the Virginia Tech transfer? Matt is the perfect replacement for Howard Little, a little bigger and probably a better scoring threat. Ryan of course is a starter as is Edwards. You don't keep a 6'8" guy who is as athletic as Edwards riding the pines.
So I see (after Dec 1) Buggs, Boggs, Broekhoff, Edwards and Kenney starting, backed up by Tommy, Jay, Kevin, Cam and either Vucic or Jakovic. That second unit could go pretty big, obviously. With Brandon gone we still have two slots to fill and Homer will probably save one for the following year to balance out the scholarship situation
That's a team that is 9 or 10 deep. It will be one that shares the scoring and will be plenty exciting to watch!
I would almost guarantee that Kevin will start at the 5 if his back is OK. If Edwards is your 5, then we're right back where we started with a guy who may not be as good a scorer.....I see Edwards as a 4.....
I'd say Buggs, Boggs, Broekhoff, Edwards and Van Wijk. Matt Kenney may be able to beat out Edwards.
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 03, 2011, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 03, 2011, 02:10:21 PM
Perhaps the Crusaders go small with Buggs, Harris, Kenney, Broekhoff and Van Wijk?
That would be my guess. Broekhoff played the 4 spot most of last season and Kenney is a physical and athletic wing who can play the 3 in this league.
Van Wijk, if healthy, is the logical starter at the 5. If Edwards can play the 4 spot, that would give Valpo the chance to slide Ryan to the 3 and go to a more traditional lineup. In the end, Valpo will play a lot with 3 and 4 guard lineups (just like most other HL teams).
I figure this is the most likely starting five of any posted so far.
then who slides in to replace kevin on nights when his back acting up? edwards?
Depth on the interior appears to be something of a question mark for the Crusaders.
Still, reading what 72 has posted about the prospective two-deep, I'm as convinced as ever that there's a definite split between the upper five and lower five programs in the league.
Last year, that division existed between teams Nos. 6 and 7.
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 03, 2011, 11:19:35 PM
then who slides in to replace kevin on nights when his back acting up? edwards?
It's a very legit question! I think Homer will try to get some minutes from Cam or Vuc. Cam is a foul waiting to happen and Vuc is a total unknown. If Vuc can help by next year it will make a world of difference.
Assuming niether Cam or vuc can help materially, then I'm guessing Edwards goes to the middle, Ryan to the 4 and Matt to the 3.
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
So, starting Ryan Broekhoff, a Virginia Tech transfer, Erik Buggs, Kevin Van Wijk and a Junior College stud (first team all district and loads of international experience) is: GRIM???????? We will see how you feel next year!
We still have a tremendous amount of depth developed during this past season. The cupboard certainly isn't bare, and if we can solve the inside problem to any degree, we will be very tough to handle. We may not win 23 games again, but I wouldn't be surprise...and if we can play Broekhoff at the 3 where he belongs, he might be hell to hold....just my thoughts..
Quote from: vu72 on May 04, 2011, 10:13:07 AM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 03, 2011, 11:19:35 PM
then who slides in to replace kevin on nights when his back acting up? edwards?
It's a very legit question! I think Homer will try to get some minutes from Cam or Vuc. Cam is a foul waiting to happen and Vuc is a total unknown. If Vuc can help by next year it will make a world of difference.
Assuming niether Cam or vuc can help materially, then I'm guessing Edwards goes to the middle, Ryan to the 4 and Matt to the 3.
cam has one huge benefit over vucic: he doesn't look lost in his body. every time i saw vucic last year, in practice or games, it was only a matter of time before he was tripping over his feet and flailing his arms around like an out of control helicopter. if this manages to improve over the course of this offseason, perhaps there is some hope. but right now, he reminds me more of a bumbler than anything useful.
Quote from: vu72 on May 04, 2011, 01:04:52 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
So, starting Ryan Broekhoff, a Virginia Tech transfer, Erik Buggs, Kevin Van Wijk and a Junior College stud (first team all district and loads of international experience) is: GRIM???????? We will see how you feel next year!
Not grim at all. Looks like next year will be the return to glory.
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 04, 2011, 08:13:09 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 04, 2011, 01:04:52 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
So, starting Ryan Broekhoff, a Virginia Tech transfer, Erik Buggs, Kevin Van Wijk and a Junior College stud (first team all district and loads of international experience) is: GRIM???????? We will see how you feel next year!
Not grim at all. Looks like next year will be the return to glory.
I'm amazed at how much more certain fans of other teams know about our team than we do. Impressive.
Quote from: wh on May 04, 2011, 08:48:12 PM
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 04, 2011, 08:13:09 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 04, 2011, 01:04:52 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
So, starting Ryan Broekhoff, a Virginia Tech transfer, Erik Buggs, Kevin Van Wijk and a Junior College stud (first team all district and loads of international experience) is: GRIM???????? We will see how you feel next year!
Not grim at all. Looks like next year will be the return to glory.
I'm amazed at how much more certain fans of other teams know about our team than we do. Impressive.
I don't claim to know more than you guys over here, but I do have an interest and enjoy the discussion.
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 03, 2011, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 03, 2011, 02:10:21 PM
Perhaps the Crusaders go small with Buggs, Harris, Kenney, Broekhoff and Van Wijk?
That would be my guess. Broekhoff played the 4 spot most of last season and Kenney is a physical and athletic wing who can play the 3 in this league.
Van Wijk, if healthy, is the logical starter at the 5. If Edwards can play the 4 spot, that would give Valpo the chance to slide Ryan to the 3 and go to a more traditional lineup. In the end, Valpo will play a lot with 3 and 4 guard lineups (just like most other HL teams).
http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/ (http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/)
It seems that I finally agree with Lazerus. Well, to be fair, he agrees with Dylan and me, since we made our posts first.
Interesting analysis but, Ben Boggs WILL be eligible in January, then, have one year after next at a minimum. They are petitioning the NCAA for a third year as he only played 4 or 5 games his spohomore year at Tech.
In any event Boggs is a guy who was a first team Virginia player as a JUNIOR. He broke his leg and missed his senior year.
The guy will be a tough defender and a scorer. So, now what Mr. Lazerus?? We will get one more player and probably hold the other for the following year. If the new guy can add anything then what do we do? Redshirt Dino??
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
I am with you on this one. I am not too excited about next year with the loss of Brandon Wood AND Cory Johnson. That team finished 4th, and we expect better with their absence? Hmm...
Hope springs eternal...I guess.
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 08, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
I am with you on this one. I am not too excited about next year with the loss of Brandon Wood AND Cory Johnson. That team finished 4th, and we expect better with their absence? Hmm...
Hope springs eternal...I guess.
if what we have coming in meshes well with what we have returning, i can understand the optimism. if the adjustment period stretches through november and december and into conference play, we may be in some trouble.
anybody know if we're planning another preseason tourney somewhere to capitalize on that extra practice time in august?
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 08, 2011, 07:34:44 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 08, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
I am with you on this one. I am not too excited about next year with the loss of Brandon Wood AND Cory Johnson. That team finished 4th, and we expect better with their absence? Hmm...
Hope springs eternal...I guess.
if what we have coming in meshes well with what we have returning, i can understand the optimism. if the adjustment period stretches through november and december and into conference play, we may be in some trouble.
anybody know if we're planning another preseason tourney somewhere to capitalize on that extra practice time in august?
I'm sure Homer would love it, but you're only allowed one of those "foreign" trips like once every four years or something like that, so no no trips planned for August. Not sure about an early season tournament
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 08, 2011, 07:34:44 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 08, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
I am with you on this one. I am not too excited about next year with the loss of Brandon Wood AND Cory Johnson. That team finished 4th, and we expect better with their absence? Hmm...
Hope springs eternal...I guess.
if what we have coming in meshes well with what we have returning, i can understand the optimism. if the adjustment period stretches through november and december and into conference play, we may be in some trouble.
anybody know if we're planning another preseason tourney somewhere to capitalize on that extra practice time in august?
You can only do a Mexico type trip every four years.
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 08, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 04, 2011, 11:40:54 AM
Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought. You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!
I am with you on this one. I am not too excited about next year with the loss of Brandon Wood AND Cory Johnson. That team finished 4th, and we expect better with their absence? Hmm...
Hope springs eternal...I guess.
I'm going ot start calling these posts "miracleisms" >:(. milanmiracle is the only guy who can look at a season where we win 23 games, beat all three teams that finished ahead of us and finish a whopping 1 game out of a tie for first, and imply that we didn't have a very good year last year and we expect to do better? After all, we finished "fourth"! Amazing and truly a half-empty analysis! :-X
As for Brandon and Cory's absence, I think there have been several good posts concerning the team next year. I won't humor miracle by predicting a conference championship, but with Mack gone, I certainly think it will be someone other than Butler. ;D
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2011, 09:28:28 AM
As for Brandon and Cory's absence, I think there have been several good posts concerning the team next year. I won't humor miracle by predicting a conference championship, but with Mack gone, I certainly think it will be someone other than Butler. ;D
This is where you go too far with your Valpo favoritism. I agree that milanmiracle may go too far in saying next year's team can't finish better than fourth. Then you point out that Valpo has great potential without Wood and Johnson and can win a conference championship yet in the same paragraph you say Butler can't win a conference championship without Mack. You don't see that as looking at the conference race with "Valpo eyes?" You don't see that as being as one-sided as milanmiracle?
Well, let's look at what I said. I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack.
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth". I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2011, 02:59:51 PM
Well, let's look at what I said. I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack.
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth". I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".
Um, unless I missed something, Valpo did finish 4th. That's not the "worst spin possible", it's reality. I don't care if they were in first place the entire year, the end result is the same.
I am certainly not excited or impressed by a fourth place finish and missing the NCAA's and I hope the players on the team feel the same way.
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 09, 2011, 09:19:50 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2011, 02:59:51 PM
Well, let's look at what I said. I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack.
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth". I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".
Um, unless I missed something, Valpo did finish 4th. That's not the "worst spin possible", it's reality. I don't care if they were in first place the entire year, the end result is the same.
I am certainly not excited or impressed by a fourth place finish and missing the NCAA's and I hope the players on the team feel the same way.
I apologize. My comments were made as a "friendly jab" at a guy who speaks his mind, just from a different side of the discussion. We both want Valpo to succeed.
Here is the latest addition to Milwaukee, a walk-on from the suburb Whitefish Bay, just 5 minutes north of campus:
Ron Patten Dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrqt4hMhN9s#ws)
Preferred Walk-on
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2011, 10:35:36 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 09, 2011, 09:19:50 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2011, 02:59:51 PM
Well, let's look at what I said. I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack.
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth". I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".
Um, unless I missed something, Valpo did finish 4th. That's not the "worst spin possible", it's reality. I don't care if they were in first place the entire year, the end result is the same.
I am certainly not excited or impressed by a fourth place finish and missing the NCAA's and I hope the players on the team feel the same way.
I apologize. My comments were made as a "friendly jab" at a guy who speaks his mind, just from a different side of the discussion. We both want Valpo to succeed.
We both want Valpo to succeed! That pretty much sums it up. No worries!
Quote from: vu72 on May 07, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
Interesting analysis but, Ben Boggs WILL be eligible in January, then, have one year after next at a minimum. They are petitioning the NCAA for a third year as he only played 4 or 5 games his spohomore year at Tech.
In any event Boggs is a guy who was a first team Virginia player as a JUNIOR. He broke his leg and missed his senior year.
The guy will be a tough defender and a scorer. So, now what Mr. Lazerus?? We will get one more player and probably hold the other for the following year. If the new guy can add anything then what do we do? Redshirt Dino??
I'm not sure where you're going with this. The amount of years doesn't change the fact that he's not playing until January. You have him for half of the season, and 16 of 18 conference games (I believe - I don't know when the exact start date is).
He will undoubtedly get that extra year of eligibility. In our own conference, Brandon Cotton won that year back. However, he squandered it by leaving Detroit before the season. Boggs should be able to get it.
I also think that the appeal doesn't happen now, but in fact happens when he has finished his "current" eligibility. When Ricky Franklin came into Milwaukee, he was a Prop 48 and had to sit out as a freshman mandatory redshirt because of his grades (I'm still amazed at how he grew as a person during our time at UWM). He got the grades, but couldn't apply for his year back until after the last year. Perhaps it is different for playing time and not grades, I do not know.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 19, 2011, 12:21:34 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 07, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
Interesting analysis but, Ben Boggs WILL be eligible in January, then, have one year after next at a minimum. They are petitioning the NCAA for a third year as he only played 4 or 5 games his spohomore year at Tech.
In any event Boggs is a guy who was a first team Virginia player as a JUNIOR. He broke his leg and missed his senior year.
The guy will be a tough defender and a scorer. So, now what Mr. Lazerus?? We will get one more player and probably hold the other for the following year. If the new guy can add anything then what do we do? Redshirt Dino??
I'm not sure where you're going with this. The amount of years doesn't change the fact that he's not playing until January. You have him for half of the season, and 16 of 18 conference games (I believe - I don't know when the exact start date is).
He will undoubtedly get that extra year of eligibility. In our own conference, Brandon Cotton won that year back. However, he squandered it by leaving Detroit before the season. Boggs should be able to get it.
I also think that the appeal doesn't happen now, but in fact happens when he has finished his "current" eligibility. When Ricky Franklin came into Milwaukee, he was a Prop 48 and had to sit out as a freshman mandatory redshirt because of his grades (I'm still amazed at how he grew as a person during our time at UWM). He got the grades, but couldn't apply for his year back until after the last year. Perhaps it is different for playing time and not grades, I do not know.
My point was directed to Mr. Lazerus' analysis of Valpo's team next year. Whether or not Boggs plays 19 games or whatever, he will have a positive impact on the season. Most of that impact will effect the horizon league result, which, afterall, is really what is important unless we are playing for an at-large bid.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on May 19, 2011, 12:21:34 PM
He will undoubtedly get that extra year of eligibility. In our own conference, Brandon Cotton won that year back. However, he squandered it by leaving Detroit before the season. Boggs should be able to get it.
I also think that the appeal doesn't happen now, but in fact happens when he has finished his "current" eligibility. When Ricky Franklin came into Milwaukee, he was a Prop 48 and had to sit out as a freshman mandatory redshirt because of his grades (I'm still amazed at how he grew as a person during our time at UWM). He got the grades, but couldn't apply for his year back until after the last year. Perhaps it is different for playing time and not grades, I do not know.
I'll preface my comment by stating that schools can petition for anything and the NCAA will sometimes make exceptions to their rules, but there is no rule stating that kids get a year back if they transfer midseason due to playing time. Avery Jukes played 7 minutes in 3 games at Alabama his freshman year before transferring to Bulter in late December ... it cost him a season of eligibility.
To clarify, Brandon Cotton's extra year came via a medical hardship. Also, Franklin's extra year came because he graduated on time, and in accordance with the NCAA rules, was granted his 4th year of eligibility.
Again, not saying Boggs won't get some sort of waiver, but it will clearly take the NCAA making an exception to their own rules to do so.
Quote from: vu72 on May 07, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
Most of that impact will effect the horizon league result, which, after all, is really what is important unless we are playing for an at-large bid.
I'm a firm believer that you must establish this approach before the season begins, not as it unfolds.
See: Bulldogs, Butler.
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 11, 2011, 05:44:13 AM
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2011, 10:35:36 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 09, 2011, 09:19:50 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 09, 2011, 02:59:51 PM
Well, let's look at what I said. I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack.
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth". I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".
Um, unless I missed something, Valpo did finish 4th. That's not the "worst spin possible", it's reality. I don't care if they were in first place the entire year, the end result is the same.
I am certainly not excited or impressed by a fourth place finish and missing the NCAA's and I hope the players on the team feel the same way.
I apologize. My comments were made as a "friendly jab" at a guy who speaks his mind, just from a different side of the discussion. We both want Valpo to succeed.
We both want Valpo to succeed! That pretty much sums it up. No worries!
Geez, looks like VU72 is making a habit of needing to form truces
Truces are overrated. Haha
Actually, I think most of the old guard from the other forum know where people are coming from in most instances. It's just playful jabbing, at least I take it that way. Some of the new posters are just figuring themselves out, and how to interact with other more established members.
I don't consider myself in the old guard, but at this point I don't think I am a newbie either. Most everybody here knows I want the best for Valpo, but am a glass half empty kind of guy. It's not just here if that makes anybody feel any better. :)
It comes down to this, treat others as you'd want to be treated and try not to say anything you wouldn't say in person. That's just my .02, like it or don't.
I think the Butler fan is in a weird place right now that none of us in the conference have experienced. You're coming off such wild national success that a return to the "Horizon League" level seems like such a disappointment. Everyone else in the conference seems bad to a lot of Butler fans because of the national success, but the fact of the matter is these teams were not that much worse than Butler this year.
There are many Butler fans who I consider some of the most intelligent fans of the H-League's online world, but even they have trouble with getting excited about pretty good teams elsewhere in the conference because inevitably you'll be comparing them with the Butler of recent years.
It's all right - just don't expect the rest of us to continue the same practice.
I'm probably not that intelligent Butler fan you referenced, but I'll chime in anyway. I'll also acknowledge that as a middle-aged guy who's been close to the program for 30 years, I have a much different perspective than the 20-somethings who dominate most message boards.
My outlook for next season is much like it was for this past season. I've got questions about who will step forward to fill in for key departures, but I'm very confident that the coaching staff will have these guys competing and improving throughout the season. I don't know what that will translate to in terms of wins, but I'm excited to see what the freshmen and sophomores can do with their opportunity.
I'm also not as confident as Jimmy that Butler is destined to become just another Horizon League program. Jimmy and vu72 will make arguments that the UWM and Valpo programs are on par with Butler ... Butler's 16 NCAT wins since 2001 (vs. 3 by UWM and 0 by Valpo) would indicate otherwise. That doesn't mean anything going forward, but in terms of actual achievements, Butler's program has been on a different level. Lastly, history seems to indicate that Butler has been able to sustain a competitive program despite losing some pretty good players. In 2002, Butler loses HL POTY Rylan Hainje and all-time assist leader Thomas Jackson to graduation; 2003 team makes Sweet 16. In 2006, Butler loses HL POTY Brandon Polk to gradutation; 2007 team makes Sweet 16. In 2008, Butler loses HL POTY Mike Green (and 4 other seniors) to graduation; 2009 team wins 26 games and earns NCAT at-large bid. In 2010, Butler loses HL POTY Gordon Hayward to the NBA; 2011 team advances to National Championship game. Again, all that doesn't guarantee anything, but does provide some evidence that Butler has been able to move forward after losing some pretty good players.
Lastly, I do give credit and respect to other Horizon League teams. I think that Gary Waters has done a great job at CSU and his '09 team that won the HL tourney and beat Wake in the NCAT was one of my favorites. I also think that the UWM teams that Pearl assembled in the mid-2000's were vey talented and played with a lot of intensity. I certainly wouldn't criticize any fan for getting excited about their own team. Jimmy is correct in stating that Butler and several other mid-major teams have raised the bar, so it can be hard for fans to get excited about every team that wins 20 games if they don't have any success in the post season.
Quote from: zvillehaze on June 01, 2011, 10:25:20 AM
I'm probably not that intelligent Butler fan you referenced, but I'll chime in anyway. I'll also acknowledge that as a middle-aged guy who's been close to the program for 30 years, I have a much different perspective than the 20-somethings who dominate most message boards.
My outlook for next season is much like it was for this past season. I've got questions about who will step forward to fill in for key departures, but I'm very confident that the coaching staff will have these guys competing and improving throughout the season. I don't know what that will translate to in terms of wins, but I'm excited to see what the freshmen and sophomores can do with their opportunity.
I'm also not as confident as Jimmy that Butler is destined to become just another Horizon League program. Jimmy and vu72 will make arguments that the UWM and Valpo programs are on par with Butler ... Butler's 16 NCAT wins since 2001 (vs. 3 by UWM and 0 by Valpo) would indicate otherwise. That doesn't mean anything going forward, but in terms of actual achievements, Butler's program has been on a different level. Lastly, history seems to indicate that Butler has been able to sustain a competitive program despite losing some pretty good players. In 2002, Butler loses HL POTY Rylan Hainje and all-time assist leader Thomas Jackson to graduation; 2003 team makes Sweet 16. In 2006, Butler loses HL POTY Brandon Polk to gradutation; 2007 team makes Sweet 16. In 2008, Butler loses HL POTY Mike Green (and 4 other seniors) to graduation; 2009 team wins 26 games and earns NCAT at-large bid. In 2010, Butler loses HL POTY Gordon Hayward to the NBA; 2011 team advances to National Championship game. Again, all that doesn't guarantee anything, but does provide some evidence that Butler has been able to move forward after losing some pretty good players.
Lastly, I do give credit and respect to other Horizon League teams. I think that Gary Waters has done a great job at CSU and his '09 team that won the HL tourney and beat Wake in the NCAT was one of my favorites. I also think that the UWM teams that Pearl assembled in the mid-2000's were vey talented and played with a lot of intensity. I certainly wouldn't criticize any fan for getting excited about their own team. Jimmy is correct in stating that Butler and several other mid-major teams have raised the bar, so it can be hard for fans to get excited about every team that wins 20 games if they don't have any success in the post season.
I really hate to get back into this but zvillehaze's thoughtful post does need some response from me as I was "called out" in a sense. First off, if I ever said that Valpo had the same post season success as Butler or our post season success could in any way be considered on a par with Butler, then please, somebody just shoot me. I never intended to say anything even close to that.
What I did say is that hsitorically, in the last ten years, Butler has been better--during the regular season--than Valpo, but not much better. I know, winning is everything and until last year we didn't have that all important W in our column. Still, losing by a point here or there or playing competitively for most of a game, doesn't make you clearly inferior either. The issue I had was that the original post had something to do with whether or not Butler was way better than Valpo, NOT, whether or not Butler's post season record was better than Valpo's.
Zville's post concerning Butler's ability to regroup with new players is impressive to say the least. We had a similar record in the Summit and hopefully will again in the Horizon. This year should be fun with many teams losing key players. It will be a battle all the way--no doubt.
Fair enough, vu72. And I only "call you out" to keep you on your toes ... nothing mean spirited intended from my end. ;)
Next year will be a tough one to call and it will be interesting to see how teams rebuild.
Quote from: zvillehaze on June 01, 2011, 10:25:20 AM
I'm probably not that intelligent Butler fan you referenced, but I'll chime in anyway. I'll also acknowledge that as a middle-aged guy who's been close to the program for 30 years, I have a much different perspective than the 20-somethings who dominate most message boards.
My outlook for next season is much like it was for this past season. I've got questions about who will step forward to fill in for key departures, but I'm very confident that the coaching staff will have these guys competing and improving throughout the season. I don't know what that will translate to in terms of wins, but I'm excited to see what the freshmen and sophomores can do with their opportunity.
I'm also not as confident as Jimmy that Butler is destined to become just another Horizon League program. Jimmy and vu72 will make arguments that the UWM and Valpo programs are on par with Butler ... Butler's 16 NCAT wins since 2001 (vs. 3 by UWM and 0 by Valpo) would indicate otherwise. That doesn't mean anything going forward, but in terms of actual achievements, Butler's program has been on a different level. Lastly, history seems to indicate that Butler has been able to sustain a competitive program despite losing some pretty good players. In 2002, Butler loses HL POTY Rylan Hainje and all-time assist leader Thomas Jackson to graduation; 2003 team makes Sweet 16. In 2006, Butler loses HL POTY Brandon Polk to gradutation; 2007 team makes Sweet 16. In 2008, Butler loses HL POTY Mike Green (and 4 other seniors) to graduation; 2009 team wins 26 games and earns NCAT at-large bid. In 2010, Butler loses HL POTY Gordon Hayward to the NBA; 2011 team advances to National Championship game. Again, all that doesn't guarantee anything, but does provide some evidence that Butler has been able to move forward after losing some pretty good players.
Lastly, I do give credit and respect to other Horizon League teams. I think that Gary Waters has done a great job at CSU and his '09 team that won the HL tourney and beat Wake in the NCAT was one of my favorites. I also think that the UWM teams that Pearl assembled in the mid-2000's were vey talented and played with a lot of intensity. I certainly wouldn't criticize any fan for getting excited about their own team. Jimmy is correct in stating that Butler and several other mid-major teams have raised the bar, so it can be hard for fans to get excited about every team that wins 20 games if they don't have any success in the post season.
I have to say it was a well thought out and respectful post.
if I ever get to Hinkle, I will let Zville buy me a beer! :)
Quote from: zvillehaze on June 01, 2011, 10:25:20 AM
In terms of actual achievements, Butler's program has been on a different level.
Regardless of your affiliation or rooting interest, is there anyone out there who can dispute this?
Quote from: motowntitan on June 01, 2011, 08:56:32 PM
if I ever get to Hinkle, I will let Zville buy me a beer! :)
Deal. I might even buy you two! :cheers:
Demovsky: will turnover shake up Horizon League?
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/arti....ook?odyssey=nav (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/arti....ook?odyssey=nav)
Folks, the league won't be nearly as wide open as some people suspect. Look for Butler, Detroit, Cleveland State and Milwaukee to challenge for the title.