Link: Could Horizon go all in with huge expansion? (http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/content.php?358-Could-Horizon-go-all-in-with-huge-expansion)
Something I thought you guys would be interested in.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 06, 2012, 05:31:56 PM
Link: Could Horizon go all in with huge expansion? (http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/content.php?358-Could-Horizon-go-all-in-with-huge-expansion)
Something I thought you guys would be interested in.
i'm intrigued by adding drexel and george mason, but they're a bit outside of our regional footprint. but they could definitely help strengthen the conference. how much better would the horizon league be if we could add oakland, drexel, and mason to sit at 12 teams? that'd be quite a bit of fun.
It is interesting that in an article which suggests how a 16 team HL might work, you offer the WAC as an example of a conference that has been decimated by expansion; yet, there is no mention of the possibility that it was actually the 16 team WAC of the 1990's that ultimately began that conference's demise. Where do you think the majority of the teams from the MWC came from?
Forget 16. I would personally be happy at 12 or 14 if the goal is to move beyond 10. If, and I mean if the HL was ever to get to 16, I would instead have some kind of four team, four pod system in place instead of moving to two eight team divisions.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 06, 2012, 05:31:56 PM
Link: Could Horizon go all in with huge expansion? (http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/content.php?358-Could-Horizon-go-all-in-with-huge-expansion)
Something I thought you guys would be interested in.
Highly informative and value-added - a good 180.
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
Quote from: covufan on June 07, 2012, 04:11:00 PM
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
How do these schools fit the mold that LeCrone has established for the Horizon League? Scholarship, Service to the Community and Athletic Accomplishment. Do Murray State, Bradley, Oakland and Morehead State really fit this mold? Could they develop towards these ideals? I wonder somewhat about Coach Kampe. He's never afraid to show how tough he is on the basketball court. What kind of citizen does he produce?
Would Purdue, Kentucky, Georgetown, Louisville ever fit these ideals?
Quote from: bbtds on June 07, 2012, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: covufan on June 07, 2012, 04:11:00 PM
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
How do these schools fit the mold that LeCrone has established for the Horizon League? Scholarship, Service to the Community and Athletic Accomplishment. Do Murray State, Bradley, Oakland and Morehead State really fit this mold? Could they develop towards these ideals? I wonder somewhat about Coach Kampe. He's never afraid to show how tough he is on the basketball court. What kind of citizen does he produce?
Would Purdue, Kentucky, Georgetown, Louisville ever fit these ideals?
One of his "citizens" will become the new principal of Concordia Lutheran High School here in Fort Wayne on July 1st. Here is his bio from Luther High North in Houston Texas.
Mychal Thom (http://www.lutheranhighnorth.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=190399&type=u).
Mr Thom is an impressive and dedicated Lutheran educator.
Quote from: FWalum on June 07, 2012, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: bbtds on June 07, 2012, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: covufan on June 07, 2012, 04:11:00 PM
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
How do these schools fit the mold that LeCrone has established for the Horizon League? Scholarship, Service to the Community and Athletic Accomplishment. Do Murray State, Bradley, Oakland and Morehead State really fit this mold? Could they develop towards these ideals? I wonder somewhat about Coach Kampe. He's never afraid to show how tough he is on the basketball court. What kind of citizen does he produce?
Would Purdue, Kentucky, Georgetown, Louisville ever fit these ideals?
One of his "citizens" will become the new principal of Concordia Lutheran High School here in Fort Wayne on July 1st. Here is his bio from Luther High North in Houston Texas.
Mychal Thom (http://www.lutheranhighnorth.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=190399&type=u).
Mr Thom is an impressive and dedicated Lutheran educator.
That is very impressive how far Mr. Thom was able to take his career. I do remember Mychal playing with the Dan Champagne, Mychal Covington, Brad Buddenborg, Jason Rozycki, Sebastien Bellin group that took on almost all of the minutes for Oakland when they switched from Div.II to Div.I.
I also remember Dan Champagne's brother, Jon Champagne, throwing punches at Phil Wille in the brawl at the end of a half at the ARC. Those who knew Phil Wille at the time, I believe, were fairly surprised he got into a fight. I've always heard that Greg Kampe is a very nice guy but was never one to shy away from a confrontation while Homer Drew, shall we say, would shy away from confrontation.
I wonder how Mychal Thom will feel about encouraging kids to go to Valpo.
I also wonder if he'll get along with AD Doerffler and Coach Mannigel. I hear Tim's a big Seward guy.
And feel free to get this thread back on track towards the HL superconference theme.
Quote from: bbtds on June 07, 2012, 06:32:33 PMI wonder how Mychal Thom will feel about encouraging kids to go to Valpo.
I also wonder if he'll get along with AD Doerffler and Coach Mannigel. I hear Tim's a big Seward guy.
I think he will be fine with sending kids to VU.
We have already spent some time with Mychal and his wife along with Dean and Barb Doerffler, I think we will all get along just great. Tim is a huge big Nebraska fan. He will get along fine with Mychal if the football team, of which Tim is the head coach, shows some progress this coming fall. I think the bigger pressure is on Josh Eggold the head boys basketball coach. Everyone thinks that Concordia is going to be loaded next year but I am not so sure they will be able to live up to expectations without some better outside shooting. If my new principal was a former DI player I would be a little nervous.
Quote from: bbtds on June 07, 2012, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: covufan on June 07, 2012, 04:11:00 PM
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
How do these schools fit the mold that LeCrone has established for the Horizon League? Scholarship, Service to the Community and Athletic Accomplishment. Do Murray State, Bradley, Oakland and Morehead State really fit this mold? Could they develop towards these ideals? I wonder somewhat about Coach Kampe. He's never afraid to show how tough he is on the basketball court. What kind of citizen does he produce?
Would Purdue, Kentucky, Georgetown, Louisville ever fit these ideals?
Is this a joke? Have you met Detroit?
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 08, 2012, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: bbtds on June 07, 2012, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: covufan on June 07, 2012, 04:11:00 PM
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
How do these schools fit the mold that LeCrone has established for the Horizon League? Scholarship, Service to the Community and Athletic Accomplishment. Do Murray State, Bradley, Oakland and Morehead State really fit this mold? Could they develop towards these ideals? I wonder somewhat about Coach Kampe. He's never afraid to show how tough he is on the basketball court. What kind of citizen does he produce?
Would Purdue, Kentucky, Georgetown, Louisville ever fit these ideals?
Is this a joke? Have you met Detroit?
I think the whole Detroit situation reflects back mostly on the head coach & his son. Anyone remember the after game prayer after the Detroit/Valpo HL tournament championship basketball game?
Quote from: bbtds on June 08, 2012, 11:13:43 AM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 08, 2012, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: bbtds on June 07, 2012, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: covufan on June 07, 2012, 04:11:00 PM
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
How do these schools fit the mold that LeCrone has established for the Horizon League? Scholarship, Service to the Community and Athletic Accomplishment. Do Murray State, Bradley, Oakland and Morehead State really fit this mold? Could they develop towards these ideals? I wonder somewhat about Coach Kampe. He's never afraid to show how tough he is on the basketball court. What kind of citizen does he produce?
Would Purdue, Kentucky, Georgetown, Louisville ever fit these ideals?
Is this a joke? Have you met Detroit?
I think the whole Detroit situation reflects back mostly on the head coach & his son. Anyone remember the after game prayer after the Detroit/Valpo HL tournament championship basketball game?
did something happen? i had turned off my tv by that point to say goodbye to my visitors.
I very mich like the idea of the midwest "Mid-Major" superconference... I wouldnt be suprised, though, if some of the lower end schools from bigger conferences may want to improve their lots by moving into a conference like this...Think DePaul, for example. They are getting killed in the Big East.
The one thing that would need to be watched is that it needs to be kept it a "regional" conference - nothing like the old Mid-Con when you traveled anywhere from Central Connecticut State & Buffalo to Southern Utah.
Brian
Quote from: vuweathernerd on June 08, 2012, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: bbtds on June 08, 2012, 11:13:43 AM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 08, 2012, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: bbtds on June 07, 2012, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: covufan on June 07, 2012, 04:11:00 PM
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
How do these schools fit the mold that LeCrone has established for the Horizon League? Scholarship, Service to the Community and Athletic Accomplishment. Do Murray State, Bradley, Oakland and Morehead State really fit this mold? Could they develop towards these ideals? I wonder somewhat about Coach Kampe. He's never afraid to show how tough he is on the basketball court. What kind of citizen does he produce?
Would Purdue, Kentucky, Georgetown, Louisville ever fit these ideals?
Is this a joke? Have you met Detroit?
I think the whole Detroit situation reflects back mostly on the head coach & his son. Anyone remember the after game prayer after the Detroit/Valpo HL tournament championship basketball game?
did something happen? i had turned off my tv by that point to say goodbye to my visitors.
Two of the Detroit players stopped their celebrating to participate in the after game prayer.
Quote from: bbtds on June 08, 2012, 03:21:25 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on June 08, 2012, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: bbtds on June 08, 2012, 11:13:43 AM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 08, 2012, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: bbtds on June 07, 2012, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: covufan on June 07, 2012, 04:11:00 PM
If the HL decides to go to 14 or 16 teams, and a little outside the geographical footprint, here are some teams I would like to see in the HL:
Drake
Oakland
Evansville
Murray St.
Morehead St.
Belmont
Bradley
How do these schools fit the mold that LeCrone has established for the Horizon League? Scholarship, Service to the Community and Athletic Accomplishment. Do Murray State, Bradley, Oakland and Morehead State really fit this mold? Could they develop towards these ideals? I wonder somewhat about Coach Kampe. He's never afraid to show how tough he is on the basketball court. What kind of citizen does he produce?
Would Purdue, Kentucky, Georgetown, Louisville ever fit these ideals?
Is this a joke? Have you met Detroit?
I think the whole Detroit situation reflects back mostly on the head coach & his son. Anyone remember the after game prayer after the Detroit/Valpo HL tournament championship basketball game?
did something happen? i had turned off my tv by that point to say goodbye to my visitors.
Two of the Detroit players stopped their celebrating to participate in the after game prayer.
wow. definitely did not see that. glad to hear it though. i'm going to assume it wasn't mccallum. that boy just screams ego.
Perhaps it's because you guys weren't around when Perry Watson was head coach, but the issues with Detroit's fan base and program have been around longer than the McCallums. For every awesome person like TitanReg or Ben Lee, you've got 15 dopes.
An article from the Dayton Daily News with interesting insights about the future direction of the HL:
Horizon League builds plan for future
David Jablonski
06/09/2012 11:54
FAIRBORN — Many want to know who will replace Butler University in the Horizon League. Commissioner Jon LeCrone is thinking broader.
At a recent two-day meeting in Chicago, LeCrone, all the Horizon League athletic directors, senior women administrators and league office staff developed a comprehensive growth agenda to guide the conference for years to come.
The talks will continue Thursday and Friday.
"What we're trying to have a conversation about is what I call the new world order in Division I athletics," LeCrone said. "No. 1, it's driven by football. No. 2, football has driven large media contracts, which has created unprecedented conference realignment. There are 31 Division I conferences, and in the last two years, 21 of those leagues have had members who have either departed or come into their league. It's all driven by football, all driven by access to the postseason, by the financial rewards the leagues have received from media companies."
That's not going to change, LeCrone knows, so the question becomes, "How does a conference without football prosper in that world?"
The growth agenda has five points.
Considering expansion
"That doesn't mean we will or won't expand," LeCrone said. "We will consider it. It needs to be done at the presidential level. It needs to be driven by our values."
Many have speculated about whether the Horizon will add one school to get back to an even 10 or perhaps make a bigger splash and expand to 12.
LeCrone is also considering scenarios in which the league stays at nine, and in that case, a current Horizon League member without baseball might add baseball so the league can get back to six baseball-playing schools and retain its NCAA bid. If the league expands, Oakland University, near Detroit, has already expressed interest in joining the Horizon. That alone would seem to make it an odds-on favorite. Oakland also comes from the Summit League, and the last team to jump to the Horizon was a Summit League school (Valparaiso in 2007).
With an enrollment of 11,466, Oakland would fit right in the middle of the league, which has an average enrollment of 8,900. Perhaps most importantly, it fits geographically with the rest of the conference.
Travel distances haven't been much of a concern for most conferences with the recent wave of expansion, but Wright State AD Bob Grant hopes it remains a concern for his league.
"You never say never, and I don't have any inside scoop, but I think it's a big selling point for us," Grant said. "You look at some of these conferences, and the travel is brutal."
If distance is important, schools from lower-ranked RPI conferences, in addition to Oakland, that are also within shouting distance of the Horizon members include: Robert Morris University, of the Northeastern Conference; Western Illinois, Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis and Indiana University-Purdue University Fort Wayne, of the Summit League; Northern Kentucky University, of the Atlantic Sun; Murray State, Morehead State and Southern Illinois, from the Ohio Valley Conference.
A little further afield is Belmont, a school in Nashville, Tenn., that is moving from the Atlantic Sun to the Ohio Valley this year.
At-large potential
The second item on the growth agenda, LeCrone said, is identifying programs that have won games in the NCAA tournament and received at-large berths into the field. Butler expanded the Horizon's profile with its success in March Madness, and the conference has received two bids three times the last 10 years (2003, 2007 and 2009).
"We can identify fairly easily probably a dozen programs that are built for at-large," LeCrone said. "They've always had at-large opportunities and won games in the tournament. We want to collect data on those schools and compare them to our schools and prepare a list of possible expansion candidates."
Collaboration
The Horizon League wants to work with like-minded conferences in the Midwest in terms of scheduling agreements, television deals and digital and social media.
"There are non-BCS conferences that have a lot to offer," Grant said. "If you pool your things together, it makes you more marketable. It makes perfect sense."
NCAA reform agenda
LeCrone wants the Horizon League to help shape the future of Division I. "We want to make sure our voice is heard," he said. "We want to stay engaged at every level."
Review of policies and procedures
The final prong of the growth agenda is a systematic review of everything the league does. The men's and women's basketball schedules for next season have already been thrown out and are being reworked, LeCrone said.
LeCrone is determined not to rush into any expansion, but the timetable has changed with the announcement that Butler will start competing in the Atlantic 10 this fall. The baseball problem looms.
"We take baseball very seriously," Grant said. "I'd like to think we're one of the bullies on the block as far as baseball in the Horizon League.
"This does start the clock ticking. We want to find another baseball school. Other schools feel the same way."
While LeCrone said the conference is on good financial footing, Grant is also concerned about the loss of the Butler game on the basketball schedule.
"It's a great game for us. I'm not going to sugarcoat it," Grant said. "My hope is we'll get some sort of regular Butler visit to the Nutter Center and also that we'll visit Hinkle."
Some pretty interesting comments by BigDWSU on the WSU board:
A few thoughts about that article and what I am reading between the lines from what I have heard about the direction the HL wants to go in expansion.
1. Current HL teams need to get with the plan. The comment in the article about the HL staying at 9 and having a current HL team re-start their baseball team was directed at Detroit and Loyola. Either let Oakland in or someone is going to have to spend some extra money fielding a baseball team.
2. I don't think Dave came up with the list of potential new HL members on his own. I have heard that each of those schools have reached out to the HL to gage interest in them joining.
3. It wasn't in the article, but I keep hearing 12 is the number we would like to expand to.
4. Travel is important to the HL. Schools like George Mason, Davidson, and Drexel were not included because they don't make enough sense geographically.
5. The comment about expansion being "driven by our values" is AD talk for we want schools of similar size and resources. Schools like NKU are not going to be considered because they don't spend enough on athletics. We don't want to add another school like YSU that isn't committed to spending enough money on their basketball team to remain competitive.
6. We are only going to add teams with "at large potential". We aren't just going to add teams to add teams. We want to add teams that will help the HL become a consistent 2 bid conference. I think our initial wish list would be Oakland, Robert Morris, and Murray State. Oakland and Murray State have baseball teams which is a must for the HL. Oakland and Robert Morris make perfect sense geographically. Murray State doesn't but they probably have the best at large potential of the 3.
If the HL is able to add these 3 teams, we would have a strong conference of 12. We would have 1 more school with a baseball team than we need to keep our NCAA automatic bid. We wouldn't have to break into divisions. With 12 teams, we could play everyone twice for 22 conference games. It would make scheduling OOC games much easier with 4 less to schedule each year. We could also keep our scheduling model of travel partners.
UWGB/UWM
UIC/Loyola
Detroit/Oakland
Robert Morris/YSU
CSU/WSU
Valpo/Murray State
:-*
Interesting article and thoughts. A couple of comments: First, the author said Southern Illinois is in the Ohio Valley and is in the Missouri Valley. No way they leave the Valley. Second, Oakland is bigger than 11,000. This Wiki article say they have 15,000 undergrads and 19,000 total. If he is thinking just undergrad then Valpo is by far the smallest at about 3,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_University)
I like the idea of major expansion. It will make a very big news splash. At 12 we are bigger than the Valley who is at 10 and smaller than the MAC who is at 13. Adding Murray State, Robert Morris and Oakland should put us more on an equal footing with the Valley and may make it more likely that they would undertake a pre-season matchup with us.
Quote from: vu72 on June 10, 2012, 05:46:12 PM
Interesting article and thoughts. A couple of comments: First, the author said Southern Illinois is in the Ohio Valley and is in the Missouri Valley. No way they leave the Valley.
There are 2 Southern Illinois and they both go by Southern Illinois. Southern Illinois-Edwardsville is in the OVC. Southern Illinois-Carbondale is in the MVC.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 10, 2012, 06:30:09 PM
Quote from: vu72 on June 10, 2012, 05:46:12 PM
Interesting article and thoughts. A couple of comments: First, the author said Southern Illinois is in the Ohio Valley and is in the Missouri Valley. No way they leave the Valley.
There are 2 Southern Illinois and they both go by Southern Illinois. Southern Illinois-Edwardsville is in the OVC. Southern Illinois-Carbondale is in the MVC.
I have a friend that works at the Edwardsville campus which he refers to as SIU-E. Never as Southern Illinois. If one says Southern Illinois they are almost always referring to SIU-C in Carbondale. StlVUFan, I'm sure, could verify this as both schools consider themselves part of the St.Louis area.
Quote from: bbtds on June 10, 2012, 07:28:38 PM
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 10, 2012, 06:30:09 PM
Quote from: vu72 on June 10, 2012, 05:46:12 PM
Interesting article and thoughts. A couple of comments: First, the author said Southern Illinois is in the Ohio Valley and is in the Missouri Valley. No way they leave the Valley.
There are 2 Southern Illinois and they both go by Southern Illinois. Southern Illinois-Edwardsville is in the OVC. Southern Illinois-Carbondale is in the MVC.
I have a friend that works at the Edwardsville campus which he refers to as SIU-E. Never as Southern Illinois. If one says Southern Illinois they are almost always referring to SIU-C in Carbondale. StlVUFan, I'm sure, could verify this as both schools consider themselves part of the St.Louis area.
carbondale's about 3 hours from stl, if memory serves - not really part of the area. and the locals refer to edwardsville as siue. in the lou, edwardsville is siue and southern illinois is carbondale. and also let's not forget that carbondale has been d-1 for a while now, and siue is just transitioning into d-1.
I've actually been to siue several times because my sister was an associate professor there until about a week ago (she's moving to Boston to work at Emerson), twice to sporting events - one our men's basketball game there, one a men's soccer game against SLU. I'll tell you this - that soccer program is a hell of a draw, and I'd consider them a front-runner if that was the sport of consequence.
Men's basketball is only beginning to grow legs, and they're mighty weak legs at that. A big benefit for them is the Vadalabene Center, which is a pretty cool little gym of about 3,500 to 4,000 seats. My favorite part is the outside - a huge schedule poster covering the entire facade, and a ticket office that looks like an old-time movie theater ticket window - but the inside is pretty nice too.
Facilities are no problem for the Cougars. They need to spend more in men's basketball - a lot more - and they need to figure out their brand identity problem. I'd rebrand the entire school as "University at the Arch" or something along those lines, because they have the crap name trifecta - hyphen school, directional school, and little sister school.
There's also no way that the DDN was talking about SIU, because if they were, Evansville/Bradley/Drake would most certainly be on the list.
The article just said Southern Illinois". In the basketball world Southern Illinois means the school in the Missouri Valley. What it means in their neighborhood is an entirely different matter. ???
Quote from: vu72 on June 11, 2012, 09:11:56 AM
The article just said Southern Illinois". In the basketball world Southern Illinois means the school in the Missouri Valley. What it means in their neighborhood is an entirely different matter. ???
That's not true. The article itself says Southern Illinois from the OVC and the table at the bottom of the article says Southern Illinois-Edwardsville. You guys just made the assumption that he was talking about the MVC school. It is pretty obvious he wasn't since he said Southern Illinois from the OVC.
Can we get back to the actual conversation? No Southern Illinois, Edwardsville or Carbondale, is going to be joining the Horizon League. So let's move on.
From the article:
The Horizon League wants to work with like-minded conferences in the Midwest in terms of scheduling agreements, television deals and digital and social media.
"There are non-BCS conferences that have a lot to offer," Grant said. "If you pool your things together, it makes you more marketable. It makes perfect sense."
***
Has the HL sent gift baskets yet to the MWC and CUSA for this idea? Who would be the like-minded, Midwestern, non-football conference that the HL would prefer to work with? Hmm, I wonder.
Mi scusi, Missouri Valley? You have a call from the Horizon League on line #2.
Being from outside the geographic area of the HL, I'm curious why Western Illinois hasn't been more a part of the conversation. They seem to be in the thick of Summit standings in the team sports and were a game shy of a 20 win MBB season. They play baseball. Their scholarship FCS FB program would be untouched -- they're in The MVFC. And they fit the HL geographic footprint. Is there a history here that I don't know about (like some of the YSU snipes I've been reading)?
combine the Missouri Valley with the HL to make a mega basketball conference. Just fixed the problem...
Most WIU sports are not good. It was a rare year for their men's basketball team this past season.
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 11, 2012, 11:52:03 AM
Being from outside the geographic area of the HL, I'm curious why Western Illinois hasn't been more a part of the conversation. They seem to be in the thick of Summit standings in the team sports and were a game shy of a 20 win MBB season. They play baseball. Their scholarship FCS FB program would be untouched -- they're in The MVFC. And they fit the HL geographic footprint. Is there a history here that I don't know about (like some of the YSU snipes I've been reading)?
If you read the article again the answers are already stated. The HL wants to add a team in the basic footprint of the HL, has a baseball team, has a similar financial commitment to their sports and has "at large potential" in men's basketball. The only think they have going for them is they are in the HL's footprint and they have a baseball team. They don't spend anywhere near enough money on their basketball program to meet HL standards and they have shown no signs of being a team with at large potential. They have never been to the post season. They won 18 games last year but 4 of those wins were against non-D1 teams. They were 14-14 last year vs D1 teams, 4-23 the year before, and 10-17 the year before that. The HL is only going to add teams that can help elevate men's basketball. Western Illinois doesn't have a chance.
Thanks guys. Looks like FB (65 FCS scholarships) and men's soccer (Summit title in 2011) rule at WIU. Checked the other sports standings, both male and female, and confirmed that their level of competitiveness was lacking. Appreciate the basketball focus in the HL and didn't know the about the underfunding at WIU.
Let's don't forget that the soccer championship for Western came at the hands of an own goal and a suspect PK.....otherwise it was all ORU. I work with the ORU soccer team.
Again, its an easy fix. Combine the private schools of the MVC, HL and A10. mega b'ball conference that would be a 4 bid conference with great academics and large endowments. easy fix.
Quote from: oklahomamick on June 11, 2012, 12:07:29 PM
combine the Missouri Valley with the HL to make a mega basketball conference. Just fixed the problem...
How do you define the term "combine"? Merge? Ok, then which conference dissolves? Do they both dissolve and form anew via the combination?
I'm certainly no expert, but I don't know if a merger would really work for a non-football conference like the HL. From a basketball standpoint, if a new conference is formed from a merger, that doesn't necessarily mean that both conferences will be able to carry over each automatic bid to the new conference. So one bid is lost right there off the bat. Plus, I believe there also may be issues concerning the allocation of NCAA tournament money. I think a dissolving conference or a conference that merges into another and there by ceases to exist would lose those distributions. I would imagine then that if the HL merges all of the work that was done by Butler tournamentwise would be for nothing. I think these were some of the main issues why the CUSA and MWC rethought the merger idea.
There are others on this board who have a better handle on the pros and cons of a HL/MVC merger I am sure, but I think a good starting point would be to consider how such an action would effect tournament bids and tournament money.
I really enjoy all of this speculation because it is a lot of fun. But in "realville" it makes so much more sense to just replace Butler with Oakland and move on. The others are all too big a reach in one way or another.
Why solidify Youngstown by adding Robert Morris? YSU is the one everyone would like to see drop out and soon.ght
You hate to pair Valpo with Wright State for travel but no other model makes sense. The Kentucky ideas are just dumb.
Detroit will suffer eventually and be in jeopardy too. It is located in a city that will declare bankruptcy this months . If either YSU and Deroit drop out, then think about new schools after more shakeout occurs.
Quote from: crusadermoe on June 12, 2012, 01:31:12 PM
I really enjoy all of this speculation because it is a lot of fun. But in "realville" it makes so much more sense to just replace Butler with Oakland and move on. The others are all too big a reach in one way or another.
Why solidify Youngstown by adding Robert Morris? YSU is the one everyone would like to see drop out and soon.ght
You hate to pair Valpo with Wright State for travel but no other model makes sense. The Kentucky ideas are just dumb.
Detroit will suffer eventually and be in jeopardy too. It is located in a city that will declare bankruptcy this months . If either YSU and Deroit drop out, then think about new schools after more shakeout occurs.
Wow. So, you like the idea of being a one-bid, low-major league with a handful of mid-major programs?
Where has this conference's historical tendency to be reactive rather than proactive gotten it?
Suddenly, it shows an inclination to strike preemptively and that's met with disdain? I just don't get it, folks.
If you really want to get aggressive go after DePaul and Bradley. At least you are consolidating and moving up a notch. DePaul needs a winning season and could bring the second bid once it solidifies.
I do like Belmont and Nashville as a "get", but I don't think people would know Robert Morris if he walked into the room.
This thread is getting a bit old. Look, nobody from the Mo Valley is going to jump ship to the HL. I think the league will just add Oakland and that'll be it, although I would much prefer Belmont, a private, Christian school from Nashville that ranked #7 in the US News College Rankings last year. Good academics, private school, good bball program. This sounds like I'm a snob, but so be it: any school mentioned in this thread with a hyphen, the word "State", or directional reference in its name is not as well thought of as a private university, and in my view, adding such a school would be a step closer to the Summit League, which we don't want, and a step or two or three away from the A-10, which is a conference I think we would want to be more like.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on June 12, 2012, 06:00:28 PM
This thread is getting a bit old. Look, nobody from the Mo Valley is going to jump ship to the HL. I think the league will just add Oakland and that'll be it, although I would much prefer Belmont, a private, Christian school from Nashville that ranked #7 in the US News College Rankings last year. Good academics, private school, good bball program. This sounds like I'm a snob, but so be it: any school mentioned in this thread with a hyphen, the word "State", or directional reference in its name is not as well thought of as a private university, and in my view, adding such a school would be a step closer to the Summit League, which we don't want, and a step or two or three away from the A-10, which is a conference I think we would want to be more like.
Paul
The HL is looking to add 3 teams. They are not going to stop at 1. You cannot lose a team like Butler and only replace them with Oakland and not expect the conference to take a big drop in perception. The HL wants to add 3 and they will try to announce them all at the same time to make a statement.
78, I concur with your thoughts about state vs private. I would love to add Belmont, DePaul, and Oakland personally.
DePaul is never coming to the HL. They make more money from their share of Big East tournament money and the Big East TV contract than all of the HL teams make combined.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 12, 2012, 07:17:09 PMThe HL is looking to add 3 teams. They are not going to stop at 1. You cannot lose a team like Butler and only replace them with Oakland and not expect the conference to take a big drop in perception. The HL wants to add 3 and they will try to announce them all at the same time to make a statement.
I don't get this thinking at all. By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler. If -- and this is probably a lousy analogy but the best I can come up with at 8:17 am --the Yankees left the AL for the NL, the AL doesn't make up the difference simply by adding the Diamondbacks, Astros, and Padres. They'd be better off by adding one strong team, like the Cardinals.
If the HL is concerned about how any expansion would be perceived, then the HL runs the risk that simply adding three teams will be perceived as a commitment by the league to strength in numbers, rather than a commitment to a quality league. I'd rather see Belmont than, say, a trio of Oakland, IUPUI, and SIU-E.
Paul
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 11, 2012, 12:33:34 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 11, 2012, 11:52:03 AM
Being from outside the geographic area of the HL, I'm curious why Western Illinois hasn't been more a part of the conversation. They seem to be in the thick of Summit standings in the team sports and were a game shy of a 20 win MBB season. They play baseball. Their scholarship FCS FB program would be untouched -- they're in The MVFC. And they fit the HL geographic footprint. Is there a history here that I don't know about (like some of the YSU snipes I've been reading)?
If you read the article again the answers are already stated. The HL wants to add a team in the basic footprint of the HL, has a baseball team, has a similar financial commitment to their sports and has "at large potential" in men's basketball. The only think they have going for them is they are in the HL's footprint and they have a baseball team. They don't spend anywhere near enough money on their basketball program to meet HL standards and they have shown no signs of being a team with at large potential. They have never been to the post season. They won 18 games last year but 4 of those wins were against non-D1 teams. They were 14-14 last year vs D1 teams, 4-23 the year before, and 10-17 the year before that. The HL is only going to add teams that can help elevate men's basketball. Western Illinois doesn't have a chance.
I was reminded by HorizonLeagueFan earlier when I asked about WIU that there are certain prerequisites to expansion among them are "at large potential and $$ dedicated." I'm thinking he has more information than he is releasing when he firmly states three.
Quote from: 78crusader on June 13, 2012, 08:18:00 AM
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 12, 2012, 07:17:09 PMThe HL is looking to add 3 teams. They are not going to stop at 1. You cannot lose a team like Butler and only replace them with Oakland and not expect the conference to take a big drop in perception. The HL wants to add 3 and they will try to announce them all at the same time to make a statement.
I don't get this thinking at all. By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler. If -- and this is probably a lousy analogy but the best I can come up with at 8:17 am --the Yankees left the AL for the NL, the AL doesn't make up the difference simply by adding the Diamondbacks, Astros, and Padres. They'd be better off by adding one strong team, like the Cardinals.
If the HL is concerned about how any expansion would be perceived, then the HL runs the risk that simply adding three teams will be perceived as a commitment by the league to strength in numbers, rather than a commitment to a quality league. I'd rather see Belmont than, say, a trio of Oakland, IUPUI, and SIU-E.
Paul
It's really a pity that some of these names surfaced in the DDN article, schools like IUPUI, IPFW and SIUE. If in fact these programs are being seriously considered by the H League, it's an epic fail by the commissioner's office.
On the Wright State board and in the DDN article, there are mentions of how the league will expressly better itself by adding schools that have historically placed themselves in at-large contention and won games in the NCAA tournament.
That's clearly not true of the schools you mentioned. Adding schools merely to expand the league isn't remotely the intention here; preventing the league from lapsing into total irrelevancy is.
Much like Belmont and Robert Morris would be positive additions, Murray State would make the league better, state school or not.
Murray State has a fine academic reputation: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/murray-state-1977 (http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/murray-state-1977)
Their #25 ranking in the south region compares favorably to Detroit's #23 ranking in the midwest.
Belmont ranks #7 in the south which compares favorably to Valpo's #4 in the midwest.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/belmont-3479 (http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/belmont-3479)
Meanwhile, Robert Morris ranks #82 in the north region! :( http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/robert-morris-university-3359 (http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/robert-morris-university-3359)
I really think the administrators and presidents will consider academic reputation highly. Obviously we want good basketball schools but finding one with both will be important. No more YSUs!
Why is Belmont even being discussed? Here is the link to the Belmont announcement of their move this summer to the OVC.
http://forum.belmont.edu/news/2011/05/13/belmont-university-to-join-ohio-valley-conference/ (http://forum.belmont.edu/news/2011/05/13/belmont-university-to-join-ohio-valley-conference/)
Why would they undo that ??? BB RPI is probably not the driver as they dropped DOWN a bit (actually 1 conference ranking position - from 20th [RPI .4789] in Atlantic Sun to 21st [RPI .4781] per CBS Sports site) to go the OVC. The writeup talks more about geographical values and, even though they don't play football, the added exposure FSC football programs bring. Between Belmont (the only private college in the conference) and Murray State that conference now is in a position (automatic + at Large) that the HL aspires to without Butler.
This quote from the May 2011 article suggests they were recruited to the OVC to raise the OVC RPI: "Belmont University, which expects to enroll more than 6,000 students in the fall of 2011, has won 30 conference championships and made nine NCAA Tournament appearances since joining the Atlantic Sun Conference in 2001-02. Belmont men's basketball has risen to national prominence, with eight conference championships, six postseason appearances and four NCAA Tournament automatic berths since 2004. This past season, the Bruins finished with a 30-5 record [27-8 last season], earned national poll votes for nine consecutive weeks, and received a No. 13 seed in the 2011 NCAA Men's Basketball Championships."
Also found an article about travel costs: "School President Bob Fisher said the transition from one league to another normally would be done over two years. But he said that Belmont will buy out the remaining year for $200,000. He also noted that the school will save more than that in travel costs by switching to the OVC."
Gotta look elsewhere I'm afraid.
Valpo and St. Joe to the North Coast Conference. With DePauw and Wabash already members of the NCC,IN. would have four of the 12 schools,the rest being in Ohio. Compact travel, multiple bids to the dance (3 last year),good academics,similar enrollment size,all private schools - why not? :thumbsup:
Quote from: 78crusader on June 13, 2012, 08:18:00 AMI don't get this thinking at all. By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler.
This is a great point. While we're not talking a huge amount of revenue, like with the B1G, for example, we're still talking some revenue, and replacing one with three just means less for everyone.
Let's say the three teams manage between them to bring in whatever Butler did (and tourney-speaking, that would be hard for a couple years)....
Then if revenue is (totally spitballing) 60 million, then during Butler, everybody gets 6 mil, whereas post-Butler, each gets 5--17% less. 1 mil is quite the chunk of change at our level!
And if revenue is less, then the percentage hit is even greater! Let's increase the numerator before we increase the denominator.
Quote from: setshot on June 13, 2012, 01:13:49 PM
Valpo and St. Joe to the North Coast Conference. With DePauw and Wabash already members of the NCC,IN. would have four of the 12 schools,the rest being in Ohio. Compact travel, multiple bids to the dance (3 last year),good academics,similar enrollment size,all private schools - why not? :thumbsup:
Because it's bush league. And the "dance" is more like a sock hop!
Seriously, and I know I shouldn't waste my time, but I will. Valpo draws athletes from all over the country and internationally. Right now 27 states and 13 foriegn countries are represented just on Valpo athletic teams. Coupled with the national nature of our scheduling brings exposure to Valpo all over the place. Playing DePauw and others would bring exposure to Indiana and Ohio.
Exposure gained via national tv games in multiple sports brings in more applications which drops the acceptance rate and makes Valpo more "selective" and will more than likely help meet the overall recruitment goals. National name recognition adds to the value of a degree and is best for the graduate.
Finally, take a look at the Depauw website and go to the men's basketball section. Now look at the box score for the big Depauw-Wabash game at Depauw. Big conference rival and all. Attendance? 350. Wow! That will sure help the alumni to get excited. Think of it this way setshot, if Valpo played D3 there wouldn't be a FanZone site. Who would you pester then? Do you bother the people on the Johns Hopkins site? Oh wait, they don't have one! :o
There, I just wasted ten minutes I can't get back. :(
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on June 13, 2012, 02:07:16 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on June 13, 2012, 08:18:00 AMI don't get this thinking at all. By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler.
This is a great point. While we're not talking a huge amount of revenue, like with the B1G, for example, we're still talking some revenue, and replacing one with three just means less for everyone.
You guys really need to read the article before you post. It answers most of your questions. The HL is only looking at teams that have proven
at large potential. The schools in the article are schools that have contacted the HL. It doesn't mean we are interested in any of them. They are just the schools that have contacted us. From what I am hearing we want to add 3 teams. Not just any 3 teams. We want 3 teams with
at large potential. The HL wants to add programs that can help get to the point where we are a consistent 2+ bid conference. If we are consistently a 2 bid conference we will all make more money even though we have 12 mouths to feed instead of 10.
And FYI, the HL is looking for the best 3 schools to meet the 5 criteria set in the article. Being a private school is not one of the criteria.
Maybe, rather, you need to read posts before you tell me what I need to read. How does anything you wrote disprove what I wrote?
I'm sorry, putting "at-large potential" (there, I fixed your lack of hyphen for you) in bold two times doesn't hide the flaws in your argument. "At-large potential" speaks as much to the league (if not more) than the quality of the team itself.
Name the last team--other than Butler--to earn an at-large bid. How are you going to find THREE teams that will earn at-large bids (oh, sorry, "potential"...hell...anyone has potential as long as they're DI) interested in the Horizon? If they had true potential, they'd probably be looking at joining the A-10 (east) or the WCC (west).
From the article:
At-large potential
The second item on the growth agenda, LeCrone said, is identifying programs that have won games in the NCAA tournament and received at-large berths into the field. Butler expanded the Horizon's profile with its success in March Madness, and the conference has received two bids three times the last 10 years (2003, 2007 and 2009).
"We can identify fairly easily probably a dozen programs that are built for at-large," LeCrone said. "They've always had at-large opportunities and won games in the tournament. We want to collect data on those schools and compare them to our schools and prepare a list of possible expansion candidates."
Schools like Oakland, Robert Morris, Murray State, and Belmont fit that criteria. They have all made recent trips to the NCAA and come from lower rated conferences. Use Belmont as an example. They finished 26-7 last year with an RPI of 58. They haven't gotten an at large bid, but they have the potential to get there from the HL. They were in the Atlantic Sun last year and will be in the OVC next year. Those conferences are ranked 20 and 21 respectively. Almost every game they played in their conference last year hurt their RPI and their at large potential. Playing in the HL (usually ranked between 11-15) is going to enhance their chances at getting an at large bid.
You ask why a team like this would want to join the HL. The answer is simple. They have a chance to get an at large bid from the HL. Historically, the HL gets 4 at large bids every decade since it's inception. The teams we are looking at have next to no chance to get an at large bid from their current conference (unless they go almost undefeated like Murray State did this year). They also have a chance to get a decent NCAA tournament seed coming out of the HL. Even though Belmont was 26-7 with an RPI of 58 last year, they got a 14 seed. Most years, HL teams are going to get much better seeds than that.
I would agree, especially with the last two sentences of your statement. However, I'll believe that Belmont wants to be in the Horizon the day after Jon LeCrone announces it. They just made a change and I'm sure it's better for them to be there than here.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 12, 2012, 10:00:55 PM
DePaul is never coming to the HL. They make more money from their share of Big East tournament money and the Big East TV contract than all of the HL teams make combined.
Yes, this might be true. However, there might not even be a Big East after the new BCS Bowls/playoff negotiations are completed. Right now the discussions are between Pac 12, Big 10, Big 12, SEC and ACC, as if the Big East doesn't matter and will get shafted.
Anyone interested in ORU? brings a baseball team and good basketball.
Sure I guess they will always have a prayer.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 13, 2012, 10:17:16 PM
From the article:
At-large potential
The second item on the growth agenda, LeCrone said, is identifying programs that have won games in the NCAA tournament and received at-large berths..."
Schools like Oakland, Robert Morris, Murray State, and Belmont fit that criteria. They have all made recent trips to the NCAA and come from lower rated conferences. Use Belmont as an example.
Belmont has never won a game in the tournament, so technically they don't fit the criteria reported in the article that you keep encouraging everyone to stay focused on. ;) Seriously though, they have been to the Dance several times in recent years and remind me of Valpo when we were dominating the Mid Con. The biggest drawback I see to Belmont is distance. Nashville is hundreds of miles away from the nearest HL school. They would almost have to be part of a package deal with Murray State to make any sense.
I'll point to my previous post on June 13th: "Why is Belmont even being discussed?" that even questions them being in the conversation. And I concur with WH that their move to the OVC is a duplicate of Valpo to the HL from the Mid-Con.
Does anyone really think that Belmont will skip from the OVC after one year? Their move there has strengthened the OVC just like Valpo's move has strengthened the HL. The OVC move (or the Valpo move scenario) is representative of the strategy the HL needs to follow once again: Find the dominant conference champion of a slightly lesser conference with multiple NCAA visits (and maybe a win here or there) and bring them into the fold >>and/or<< bring in that upper level competitor from a conference a bit higher than the HL that received a couple of at-large bids (but was not able to quite rise to the conference Alpha male role in the time frame they wanted). BTW everyone is still mentioning Oakland, and maybe geographically it's a fit, but LaCrone's statements seem to be casting a wider net for bigger fish.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 13, 2012, 07:29:00 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on June 13, 2012, 02:07:16 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on June 13, 2012, 08:18:00 AMI don't get this thinking at all. By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler.
This is a great point. While we're not talking a huge amount of revenue, like with the B1G, for example, we're still talking some revenue, and replacing one with three just means less for everyone.
You guys really need to read the article before you post. It answers most of your questions. The HL is only looking at teams that have proven at large potential. The schools in the article are schools that have contacted the HL. It doesn't mean we are interested in any of them. They are just the schools that have contacted us. From what I am hearing we want to add 3 teams. Not just any 3 teams. We want 3 teams with at large potential. The HL wants to add programs that can help get to the point where we are a consistent 2+ bid conference. If we are consistently a 2 bid conference we will all make more money even though we have 12 mouths to feed instead of 10.
And FYI, the HL is looking for the best 3 schools to meet the 5 criteria set in the article. Being a private school is not one of the criteria.
Thank you.
As to the question of Belmont, TCU jumped to the Big 12 before ever playing a game in the Big East. As with the binding nature of a coach's contract, loyalty to a conference is a thing of the distant past.
Got a point there. That is BCS stuff, but I guess the mid-majors can act like major-majors.
Quote from: dylanrocks on June 14, 2012, 02:04:36 PM
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 13, 2012, 07:29:00 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on June 13, 2012, 02:07:16 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on June 13, 2012, 08:18:00 AMI don't get this thinking at all. By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler.
This is a great point. While we're not talking a huge amount of revenue, like with the B1G, for example, we're still talking some revenue, and replacing one with three just means less for everyone.
You guys really need to read the article before you post. It answers most of your questions. The HL is only looking at teams that have proven at large potential. The schools in the article are schools that have contacted the HL. It doesn't mean we are interested in any of them. They are just the schools that have contacted us. From what I am hearing we want to add 3 teams. Not just any 3 teams. We want 3 teams with at large potential. The HL wants to add programs that can help get to the point where we are a consistent 2+ bid conference. If we are consistently a 2 bid conference we will all make more money even though we have 12 mouths to feed instead of 10.
And FYI, the HL is looking for the best 3 schools to meet the 5 criteria set in the article. Being a private school is not one of the criteria.
Thank you.
As to the question of Belmont, TCU jumped to the Big 12 before ever playing a game in the Big East. As with the binding nature of a coach's contract, loyalty to a conference is a thing of the distant past.
The difference here though IMO is that there is no AQ BCS status twisting and dangling in front of Belmont. Moving from the far flung Atlantic Sun, Belmont might like the fact that there are four OVC schools located in Tennessee alone. I'm sure one reason why TCU jumped to the Big 12 was so that it could become more geographically compact than as a Big East member. I suppose it is possible, but why would Belmont want to lessen their geographical compactness by moving to the HL?
Nope. I still don't buy it.
Belmont going to the Horizon would be like VU, after promising to go to the Horizon out of the travel snafu formerly known as the Mid-Con, went to the OVC.
I mean, sure it could happen. (as Wayne would say "when monkeys fly out..."). I mean, girls are always saying, "I just don't want to date [type x] any more"...and they dump the next guy quickly for another type x.
But the conference they're going to makes more sense to them. I'm sure they'd be a decent competitive fit, but they start to spread the Horizon beyond its cozy boundaries--which are part of the appeal.
If you're a Phish fan (and I'm not), "signing" Belmont, Murray St., and (just say) St. Louis is the equivalent of making the album "Hoist".
Belmont is almost certainly out of the picture. I am sure that there would also be some monetary penalty assessed to Belmont by the OVC if they made the jump to the HL. This might be something that a major school could justify but a smaller mid-major... I doubt it would happen.
Quote from: oklahomamick on June 14, 2012, 08:32:58 AM
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 12, 2012, 10:00:55 PM
DePaul is never coming to the HL. They make more money from their share of Big East tournament money and the Big East TV contract than all of the HL teams make combined.
Yes, this might be true. However, there might not even be a Big East after the new BCS Bowls/playoff negotiations are completed. Right now the discussions are between Pac 12, Big 10, Big 12, SEC and ACC, as if the Big East doesn't matter and will get shafted.
No Big East basketball team is going to jump ship until the conference folds. They would give up too much money. If the Big East ever does fold, Depaul is going to try to get into the best basketball conference they can. The A-10 and the MVC would be their first 2 options.
Quote from: FWalum on June 14, 2012, 05:53:34 PM
Belmont is almost certainly out of the picture. I am sure that there would also be some monetary penalty assessed to Belmont by the OVC if they made the jump to the HL. This might be something that a major school could justify but a smaller mid-major... I doubt it would happen.
Belmont was in a low major conference (A Sun). They decided to move to another low major conference (OVC) to decrease travel costs. There was no other benefit to joining the OVC. Even with them in the conference, the OVC is still a 18-20 ranked conference.
I really don't understand how any Valpo fan cannot understand why Belmont would want to make the jump to the HL considering it was just a few years ago when you joined the conference. Any team from a 20+ rated conference that has no chance at getting an at-large bid from their conference is going to give serious consideration to joining a conference that is usually ranked 11-14 and has shown the ability to get at large bids fairly regularly. Add in the fact that Murray State may also be leaving the OVC to join the HL. Why would they want to stay in the OVC without Murray State when they could join a much higher rated conference with them? The only negative for them would be travel costs. Did travel costs stop Butler from leaving a 1-2 bid HL to go to a 3-4 bid A-10 conference.
In regards to Belmont having to pay a penalty for leaving the OVC. All they would have to pay is the exit fee the OVC has in place. I doubt it is very much considering what a low conference it is. Regardless, if they are really interested in the HL, I think the HL would be more than happy to pick up that tab to get them into our conference. We just got a bunch of extra cash that Butler had to leave behind with their departure. It would be poetic to use the money we got from them on the way out to help secure one of their replacements for the HL.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 14, 2012, 08:07:34 PMI really don't understand how any Valpo fan cannot understand why Belmont would want to make the jump to the HL considering it was just a few years ago when you joined the conference. Any team from a 20+ rated conference that has no chance at getting an at-large bid from their conference is going to give serious consideration to joining a conference that is usually ranked 11-14 and has shown the ability to get at large bids fairly regularly. Add in the fact that Murray State may also be leaving the OVC to join the HL.
I really don't understand why you can't understand that people have varying opinions.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 14, 2012, 08:07:34 PMI really don't understand how any Valpo fan cannot understand why Belmont would want to make the jump to the HL considering it was just a few years ago when you joined the conference.
I fully understand your point regarding Belmont, but to be clear, Valpo didn't leave the Mid-Con to move up in league status. That clearly was a plus but added new preasure to recruit etc. The driving force to move was the rediculous travel and time away from the classroom for the athletes. The costs were also silly considering the level of play and the return let alone the markets where we played were hardly a hot bed of Valpo alums.
vu72 makes a good point.
So........... given all the previous speculation on this string, the added qualifiers (like vu72's), and the LeCrone guidelines as set forth in his comments, what schools meet the following attributes for addition to the HL?
1. Fit the geographic footprint
2. Have a strong academic tradition
3. Have an RPI in MBB that is consistent with the upper tier of the HL schools
4. Have been to the dance recently on more than one occasion
5. Have been at-large participants in the dance
6. Have won at least one NCAA tourney game in the last few years
7. Fund athletics and especially MBB at a level consistent with the HL average
8. Play baseball
9. Want to change conferences
This is easily tabulated by setting up a simple matrix (see below): Possible Candidate Institutions VS. Attributes.
I don't have the knowledge to complete this, but I'm sure someone on this board could do a pretty accurate assessment and complete it.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 14, 2012, 08:07:34 PM
Quote from: FWalum on June 14, 2012, 05:53:34 PM
Belmont is almost certainly out of the picture. I am sure that there would also be some monetary penalty assessed to Belmont by the OVC if they made the jump to the HL. This might be something that a major school could justify but a smaller mid-major... I doubt it would happen.
Belmont was in a low major conference (A Sun). They decided to move to another low major conference (OVC) to decrease travel costs. There was no other benefit to joining the OVC. Even with them in the conference, the OVC is still a 18-20 ranked conference.
I really don't understand how any Valpo fan cannot understand why Belmont would want to make the jump to the HL considering it was just a few years ago when you joined the conference. Any team from a 20+ rated conference that has no chance at getting an at-large bid from their conference is going to give serious consideration to joining a conference that is usually ranked 11-14 and has shown the ability to get at large bids fairly regularly. Add in the fact that Murray State may also be leaving the OVC to join the HL. Why would they want to stay in the OVC without Murray State when they could join a much higher rated conference with them? The only negative for them would be travel costs. Did travel costs stop Butler from leaving a 1-2 bid HL to go to a 3-4 bid A-10 conference.
In regards to Belmont having to pay a penalty for leaving the OVC. All they would have to pay is the exit fee the OVC has in place. I doubt it is very much considering what a low conference it is. Regardless, if they are really interested in the HL, I think the HL would be more than happy to pick up that tab to get them into our conference. We just got a bunch of extra cash that Butler had to leave behind with their departure. It would be poetic to use the money we got from them on the way out to help secure one of their replacements for the HL.
Regarding exit fees, the OVC's fees may be minimal now (not sure) but who is to say that they will not increase in the future?
The CAA just raised their conference's exit fee to $1M as a reaction to members departing their conference. In other words, Drexel to the HL became much more difficult if there ever was an avenue in the first place. I'm sure if the OVC wanted to, they could increase their exit fees just as easily, particularly to preemptively to fend off any attempt by the HL to poach some of their teams.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-06-13/caa-raises-exit-fee-to-1-million-to-create-digital-network (http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-06-13/caa-raises-exit-fee-to-1-million-to-create-digital-network)
Someone brought up ORU, and that won't happen. They are joining the Southland this coming season, as it has been their goal to be in a Texas and Oklahoma-based conference. I believe the Southland had a lower RPI last year than the Summit, so the move was obviously made because of travel and having local rivals.
In regards to TCU, the move was absolutely made because of quality of teams and rivalries. TCU was a member of the defunct SWC with several of the Big 12 teams, and was shafted when the league folded and many members combined with the Big 8 to form the Big 12. Baylor was supported by several Baylor alumni in Texas politics at that time to be included in the deal, while making sure to leave TCU out (both are private schools, so it wasn't supposed to be a TX government issue). Baylor would never have let TCU in the Big 12 if Colorado, Nebraska, A&M and Missouri ended up staying. They are huge rivals in everything you can imagine, with sports not even being the primary focus of the rivalry...
I like VULB's grid. What jumps out quickly is that I don't think you can find: Geographic footprint and Recent at-large team You can't get both.
Best bets: Oakland, Bradley and Northern Illinois, (none are recent at-large teams, but all may have motives to leave)
Maybe NIU could work something out with the MAC. Think of their savings in the non-football sports esp. if divisions could be created in a new Horizon League. I think the MAC added Buffalo after they joined and are tending eastward.
Actually, Moe, that was kinda my point in posting the matrix. I was watching all the conjecture and speculation, and when I gridded it out, it sort of jumped out at me that there are very few schools, if any, that would/could ADD to the HL. One key factor is #9 'Wanting to change conferences.' Much of the speculation was about schools in the MVC and A-10 and I didn't see #9 happening with those institutions. It has me a bit worried and reinforced, for me at least, the hole left in MBB with Butler's departure (although they were 3rd overall in the McCafferty largely on the performance of their women's teams - VU being 5th because of the #1 position in men's sports). Butcha nevah know.
On another related conference realignment note in my neck of the woods (Boston), Boston University (32,000 enrollment; tuition and fees $56,184) recently announced they are moving from America East (fully scholarshipped D-I mid-major) to the Patriot League (PL average enrollment w/0 BU = 5,000) in all but Ice Hockey. That is a pretty big move out here (would have thought a jump to the CAA to replace VCU or ODU was more likely to happen).
Here is the story: http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/articles/2012/06/16/boston_university_headed_to_patriot_league/ (http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/articles/2012/06/16/boston_university_headed_to_patriot_league/)
Once all need-based, the PL is changing it's tune. From Wikipedia: While financial aid has always been available, athletic scholarships have only been given in recent years at Patriot League schools. Basketball scholarships were first allowed beginning with freshmen entering the league in the fall of 1998. In 2001, when American, which gave scholarships in all sports (AU does not play football) entered the league, the league began allowing all schools to do so in sports other than football. Lafayette, the last no athletic scholarships holdout, began granting full rides in basketball and other sports with freshmen entering the school in the fall of 2006. On February 13, 2012, the Patriot League announced they would begin offering Football scholarships. Starting with the 2013 academic year, each school will be allowed no more than the equivalent of 15 scholarships to incoming football players, according to the release. The total number of scholarships can't exceed 60 in any season.
This does not have any direct bearing on Valpo and the HL, but it does underscore the volatility and weirdness going on with conference realignment.
Thanks for reply VULB. I concur that all seems up for grabs. LeCrone's comments seemed to me to signal that idea. That's why I think he is singnaling something outside the box.
I know people will say no teams would want to leave the MVC. But I think I said in another post that Bradley might want more trips to Chicago and Wisconsin. Recent years were not good, but there is a nice hoops history there. My thought of No. Illinois is they might be able to pull of a "football-only" agreement with the MAC and pick up easier trips than their MAC travel.
The poll is leaning heavily to Oakland and that's OK (and I wouldn't not invite them), but they don't bring much replacement value for Butler. But, the Bradley brand does. From the start I thought of Bradley (though I erroneously labeled them a Catholic university, duh). No football baggage, splendid MBB tradition and they fit many of the desired attributes. They have baseball and their team sports mesh with most all the HL schools. Bradley, in my mind and if they would consider a change, could think of the move as an opportunity to be a consistently bigger fish in a slightly smaller pond (MVC RPI 8th vs HL 14th) and, as you say, get greater visibility in the Chicago market. With Bradley I could see a two bid -- conference champ and 1 at-large -- profile similar to the profile that was evolving when Butler was a member. And I like the idea that they are private. Ah, but again, it's just speculation.
If anyone wants to work on the spreadsheet that VULB started, just click on this link and edit it. I've set it up under my Google account so that anyone with the link can edit it:
Link: Prospective Horizon League members (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjLuL-cRMEamdDFHNHRhUi03OHFSeDJaaURWNlVDMmc)
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 17, 2012, 05:09:54 PMthey don't bring much replacement value for Butler. But, the Bradley brand does.
Maybe I'm just not very familiar with Bradley, but I just can't agree with this statement.
Quote from: Valpo2010 on June 17, 2012, 10:47:39 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 17, 2012, 05:09:54 PMthey don't bring much replacement value for Butler. But, the Bradley brand does.
Maybe I'm just not very familiar with Bradley, but I just can't agree with this statement.
Those aged 45 and up will remember Bradley's NIT title. Some younger fans will remember Hersey Hawkins (one of my personal favorites).
I remember Bradley from our Bracketbuster with them in 08. Never have I felt like I was at a "big time" event than that night. I mean, of course, at the mid-major level - I've been to many Badger games (I don't enjoy them anymore). But the atmosphere leading up to the game in Peoria was the closest I've felt to a Big Ten atmosphere without actually going to one...more than Northwestern for sure.
Panther, I am in the age group you mentioned, so I do remember the good old days for Bradley (vaguely). Bradley would bring credibility as a former MVC member while Oakland would be coming from the Summit with not nearly the pedigree as Valpo had when it made its jump. In addition to a greater presence in Chicago, maybe Bradley would see this as a way to get back to those good old days(?) and a easier way to get to the dance more consistently.
This is from the Bradley website:
>> Bradley ranks 25th nationally with 1,553 all-time victories
>> 34 postseason tournament appearances are the most in the Missouri Valley Conference
>> Two NCAA Tournament championship games, four "Sweet 16" appearances (including 2006) and four NIT titles
>> 22 final Top 20 national rankings, including 24th in the final 2005-06 ESPN/USA Today Poll
Recent MBB Records:
11-12 W 7 L 25
10-11 W 12 L 20
09-10 W 17 L 15
08-09 W 22 L 15 (Made 4th round of CIT)
Expand by 3?
Oakland, Murray State and Robert Morris (assuming nothing happens to YSU).
Expand by 5?
George Mason, Belmont, Oakland, Murray State and Robert Morris (assuming nothing happens to YSU).
Face it: the "geographic footprints" of athletic associations across the country are expanding.
Paul Unruh and Gene Melchiorre were the hot shots for Bradley back in the early 50's. Nat Holman and CCNY gave the Braves fits during that period. Ditto Rupp's KU wildcats. Nevertheless, Bradley was a household name as was the Loyola- Chicago team. As an easterner I was a CCNY booster. Then,the scandals hit. Goodbye to CCNY,NYU and LIU basketball. They never recovered. So,here's to Bradley. They would be a great fit for the HL. :twocents:
Bradley would give the HL a 'name' school. Right now, sans Butler, the HL has no marquee value and will never rise to an at-large bid situation if it adds low profile schools that don't meet the 9 points reflective of LeCrone's statement. Despite having a down-turn in the last few years Bradley would be an awesome get. Can't help but think that Bradley will never come about as the prestige of being a member of the 8th best conference in the country (even though they were in the conference basement last year) is too much to overcome.
Simply because some college athletic associations are in fact expanding geographically does not in fact imply that we must as well.
Perhaps if the country were expanding, or the world--that might in fact imply that the Horizon should--though even then it wouldn't necessarily follow.
Since that's not the case, though, regardless of whether DC or the UP get statehood, the fact remains that only travel agents--not softball players, not track athletes, etc.--are the ones in favor of far-flung ridiculosities like the Big East or A-10.
Now--if we were talking a MBB-only conference? Well, then that's a different story. But the fact remains that a big reason VU went to the Horizon was geographical, not just respect-based.
Bradley is not going anywhere so why is this garnering so much speculation? It would be much more likely that the University of Evansville would move to the HL and that probability is about 0.5%. If this thread is turning into a wish list then maybe we ought to be discussing the possibility of some low level ACC team coming to the HL. :crazy:
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 18, 2012, 11:10:29 AMBradley would give the HL a 'name' school.
I guess this is where we disagree...maybe it's cause I'm in my mid 20's and wasn't around when Bradley was a stronger program, but I in no way view Bradley as a big (or even mediocre) 'name' program.
The previous few posts underscore what I was driving at by bringing Bradley into the conversation and then finally concluding there is no reason for them to come over. IMO There just ain't any schools out there that fit the geographic footprint (a very big attribute consideration as pointed out below) and can either maintain the brand at pre-Butler levels or add to the HL brand/RPI if the HL insists on being an individual conference going forward. So, maybe it comes back to something like Panther's idea: a MVC/HL merger into an expanded MVC superconference with east/west divisions. Markets covered: Milwaukee, Chicago, Detriot, Omaha, St. Louis, Cleveland, Dayton. But that's 19 schools. 18 would set up two 9 team divisions. MBB schedules would have 16 H&H inside the division and (6-8?) games against opposite division schools and (6-8?) games non-conference. Might look like this (or not).
EAST
Wright
CSU
Detroit
VU
Indiana State
Evansville
Illinois SU
NIU
Bradley
WEST
UWGB
UWM
Loyola
UIC
Northern Iowa
Creighton
Drake
MO State
SIU
Quote from: Valpo2010 on June 18, 2012, 12:37:02 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 18, 2012, 11:10:29 AMBradley would give the HL a 'name' school.
I guess this is where we disagree...maybe it's cause I'm in my mid 20's and wasn't around when Bradley was a stronger program, but I in no way view Bradley as a big (or even mediocre) 'name' program.
Though I knew about Bradley's history through my own liking of athletics history, I would agree with Valpo2010, and I am 30. Bradley doesn't have anywhere near the name recognition it did in sports decades ago, though still a good academic school. Anyone my age or younger probably has no idea about their programs, other than the one big guy they had a few years ago that fizzled out in the NBA. I even had to Google his name, Patrick O'Bryant.
I do get your overall point though VULB, that we should go after programs that have done something in their history and are in our footprint.
Quote from: valpotx on June 18, 2012, 04:37:24 PM
Quote from: Valpo2010 on June 18, 2012, 12:37:02 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 18, 2012, 11:10:29 AMBradley would give the HL a 'name' school.
I guess this is where we disagree...maybe it's cause I'm in my mid 20's and wasn't around when Bradley was a stronger program, but I in no way view Bradley as a big (or even mediocre) 'name' program.
Though I knew about Bradley's history through my own liking of athletics history, I would agree with Valpo2010, and I am 30. Bradley doesn't have anywhere near the name recognition it did in sports decades ago, though still a good academic school. Anyone my age or younger probably has no idea about their programs, other than the one big guy they had a few years ago that fizzled out in the NBA. I even had to Google his name, Patrick O'Bryant.
I do get your overall point though VULB, that we should go after programs that have done something in their history and are in our footprint.
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If history is a necessity then Evansville should certainly be in the picture. We have a much deeper history with the Purple Aces than we do with Bradley. We have played Bradley a total of 3 times in our history while we have played Evansville 82 times, going back to 1931. They were in our conference (The ICC) and generally were the team to beat. They have a long NCAA history with players like Jerry Sloan, for example. They have won five National D2 Championships and have five D1 tourney appearances as well.
Evansville would be our natural travel partner. I doubt it could happen but if we are dreaming Evansville would be a better fit than Bradley.
Quote from: vu72 on June 19, 2012, 09:46:35 AMEvansville would be our natural travel partner. I doubt it could happen but if we are dreaming Evansville would be a better fit than Bradley.
I agree, historically speaking, and I agree that all the good travel partners would be taken, but the simple fact is, if Oakland joins, six different schools would be closer than Evansville (the two Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois schools). Heck, Wright State and Bradley itself would be more convenient travel partners...
Ah, the good old ICC days. Watching Jerry Sloan and Larry Humes (?) in the old Brown Gym was quite a treat. Yes, Evansville would be a good addition too.
Here's my worry. Looking at the poll as it progresses and watching the realistic suggestions in the various posts, I am concerned that the future HL might actually become more of a Mid-Con 2.0 (quality-wise - not geographically) rather than what we all hope for, an improved HL 2.0.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on June 19, 2012, 11:10:56 AM
Quote from: vu72 on June 19, 2012, 09:46:35 AMEvansville would be our natural travel partner. I doubt it could happen but if we are dreaming Evansville would be a better fit than Bradley.
I agree, historically speaking, and I agree that all the good travel partners would be taken, but the simple fact is, if Oakland joins, six different schools would be closer than Evansville (the two Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois schools). Heck, Wright State and Bradley itself would be more convenient travel partners...
There is no good way from Valpo to Evansville. If one were to make good time on the Interstate, Cleveland State might be a little closer, time-wise.
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 18, 2012, 01:47:16 PM
The previous few posts underscore what I was driving at by bringing Bradley into the conversation and then finally concluding there is no reason for them to come over. IMO There just ain't any schools out there that fit the geographic footprint (a very big attribute consideration as pointed out below) and can either maintain the brand at pre-Butler levels or add to the HL brand/RPI if the HL insists on being an individual conference going forward. So, maybe it comes back to something like Panther's idea: a MVC/HL merger into an expanded MVC superconference with east/west divisions. Markets covered: Milwaukee, Chicago, Detriot, Omaha, St. Louis, Cleveland, Dayton. But that's 19 schools. 18 would set up two 9 team divisions. MBB schedules would have 16 H&H inside the division and (6-8?) games against opposite division schools and (6-8?) games non-conference. Might look like this (or not).
EAST
Wright
CSU
Detroit
VU
Indiana State
Evansville
Illinois SU
NIU
Bradley
WEST
UWGB
UWM
Loyola
UIC
Northern Iowa
Creighton
Drake
MO State
SIU
1994:http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hvRHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=z-wDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6900,3514108&dq=leaving+the+wac&hl=en (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hvRHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=z-wDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6900,3514108&dq=leaving+the+wac&hl=en)
1998:http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=F8k0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=LmsFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6326,4895182&dq=leaving+the+wac&hl=en (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=F8k0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=LmsFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6326,4895182&dq=leaving+the+wac&hl=en)
18? If 16 didn't work, how will 18?
What motivation does the MVC have to merge with the Horizon League?
The MVC might look at pilfering the top 3 or 4 teams from the Horizon League but that would be about the extent of their interest. There is no incentive for a higher rated conference to wholesale add another lower rated conference and dilute their product along with adding a ton of geographical and demographic issues.
Quote from: FWalum on June 19, 2012, 06:59:46 PM
The MVC might look at pilfering the top 3 or 4 teams from the Horizon League but that would be about the extent of their interest. There is no incentive for a higher rated conference to wholesale add another lower rated conference and dilute their product along with adding a ton of geographical and demographic issues.
Just curious, what do 3 or 4 Horizon League teams add to the MVC? If you've been following along, I put out a couple stories in the past few months pushing Milwaukee to seek membership in the MVC. I continued my research, kept pushing, and at the end of the day realized that we haven't proven we can be an asset.
The Horizon may be looking to add teams with at-large potential, but the MVC is solid and isolated enough to know that they don't "need" anything. Creighton is the only school with the possibility of being pilfered, and unless the A10 starts moving significantly west it's just not going to happen.
The hope that the Horizon schools have of joining the MVC would be Creighton's departure. But so much of the A10 was weary of moving west for Butler that it took more than a year for them to ask. Omaha is so much further west, I almost think it's impossible. That's our only shot.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 20, 2012, 11:54:29 AMQuote from: FWalum on June 19, 2012, 07:59:46 PM
The MVC might look at pilfering the top 3 or 4 teams from the Horizon League but that would be about the extent of their interest. There is no incentive for a higher rated conference to wholesale add another lower rated conference and dilute their product along with adding a ton of geographical and demographic issues.
Just curious, what do 3 or 4 Horizon League teams add to the MVC?
Nothing really, that is why I stated it in a skeptical manner. I was just looking at some of the previous posts talking about a MVC HL merger as pretty ridiculous.
OK, since someone floated an MVC-Horizon "merger", I will float my crazy hunch. LeCrone made some pretty sweeping statements about the whole landscape changing. He noted the major gulf between the BCS bowl-eligible D-1 conferences and the "rest of D-1" and noted that FOOTBALL is the key driver of the gulf. Not new idea. But.....maybe it opens door to more flexibility. So maybe there is one viable idea for a new larger D-1conference in the midwest.
I never really considered the MVC idea. The MVC has NO incentives. Travel wouldnt' improve either. OK....here is my conspiracy theory......with NO inside knowledge......nor hearing of one single rumor. The Horizon merges with the MAC. Teams already schedule each other often.
The biggest reasons NOT to do so would be the loss of an automatic NCAA bid and non-addition of TV markets. The possible BID LOSS would stop the idea cold UNLESS the new league could get consent to have two automatic bids. NOT LIKELY,.....but....
The biggest pluses are two: 1--Less travel cost for all schools, especially good for non-hoops sports. 2--More fan interest in the major cities due to multiple teams in the key markets of Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland. 20 teams total and natural travel partners.
West: Loyola- UIC, .....UWGB-UWM,......Valpo-Northern Illinois, ......EMU-CMU...... Detroit-- (and OAKLAND***)
East: Miami-Wright State;.... Kent-Akron,.....Ball State-Toledo,......Buffalo-Ohio U (least natural of the partners)
Who knows? I've always wondered if CSU and YSU travel to Wisconsin is painful and vice versa. Same for No. Illinois and Ball State in the MAC going to Ohio so often.