Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[wh]

An interesting take by Paul lol.

All I'll say is the MVC has better weed the HL and I'll just leave it at that.

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860595717156589568
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860595983230611456
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860596192673234978
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860596579144798208
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860597063930839040

Oh my word!  Is that honestly all you've got, Paul - "It's dumb to say you want to leave a league with a neutral site tournament to join a league with a neutral site tournament." When I get a few minutes I'll try to lay out the differences for you, albeit I think you already know - or you should.

I'll give you a little hint from 5" below the surface. It begins with the difference between the terms "neutral" and "pseudo neutral."  You also might want to consider the phrase "it's all in the presentation" and words like honesty, integrity and mutual respect.

[bbtds]

I'm with Paul. You can't complain about a neutral site tournament while wanting to bolt to a conference with a neutral site tournament. The case can be made that playing the tournament in St Louis is a lot better than playing it in Detroit. It seems Valpo needs to get used to the idea of a neutral site tournament.

[valpopal]

As others have pointed out, there are substantial flaws in Paul's logic. The tournament in St. Louis is truly neutral, while the tournament in Detroit is not. Also, Valpo knows what it is getting in terms of a tournament when moving to the MVC; however, Valpo entered a HL with the tournament at campus sites, which was appreciated, and the conference chose to move the tournament to Detroit, something the Valparaiso leadership voted against. Finally, the tournament atmosphere at Arch Madness is head and shoulders over that in Detroit. If Paul has a problem with the fans' reactions, he should also question the attitudes and reactions of Valparaiso Athletics, which strongly opposed the move to Detroit for the HL tournament and which enthusiastically favors the move to the MVC.

[wh]

As others have pointed out, there are substantial flaws in Paul's logic. The tournament in St. Louis is truly neutral, while the tournament in Detroit is not. Also, Valpo knows what it is getting in terms of a tournament when moving to the MVC; however, Valpo entered a HL with the tournament at campus sites, which was appreciated, and the conference chose to move the tournament to Detroit, something the Valparaiso leadership voted against. Finally, the tournament atmosphere at Arch Madness is head and shoulders over that in Detroit. If Paul has a problem with the fans' reactions, he should also question the attitudes and reactions of Valparaiso Athletics, which strongly opposed the move to Detroit for the HL tournament and which enthusiastically favors the move to the MVC.

Excellent.

1. As Pal indicates, the HL went from a tournament format with an EARNED advantage to the league's best team to one with an UNEARNED advantage in favor of 2 programs in the backyard of the tournament site. There is nothing NEUTRAL about that - nothing.
2. It was widely circulated that Oakland's Athletic Department lobbied the HL Office behind the scenes. If true, that adds a sleaze factor to the equation that would destroy all faith Valpo would have in the HL Office going forward to be an honest, independent broker. Once that trust is lost it's time to move on.
3. The unearned lack of neutrality in favor of Oakland and Detroit will go from bad to worse as soon as the new Detroit tournament venue is christened by Oakland and Detroit playing in a 4-team tournament with Michigan and Michigan State. Is there anyone who thinks that Mr. "I'm just trying to look out for the best interests of the HL" Kampe isn't going to try to leverage that advantage to the max - every year from now on?
4. The MVC's tournament is "what you see is what you get." It is a neutral site in a neutral city. It's not represented as something it is not. There is no reason to call into question the honesty and integrity of the league office or any of the league programs. Their tournament is well established and has an excellent reputation nationally.

So there you are, a plethora of differences just below the top soil. I can go deeper, if it becomes necessary.

[valpo64]

With reference to the "neutral" site in Detroit,  I remember hearing "King Kampe" in a radio interview prior to the tourney this year how great it was that the tourney was now in Detroit, especially so for OU and UDM.  He also said it would be terrific if the 2 schools played each other in the tourney as they would probably come close to filling up the place.  What? Are you kidding me?  At the time he also said the tourney location should be a big  advantage for recruiting purposes.   The King is dead, the King is dead!  Long live the King!

[FieldGoodie05]

I'm with Paul. You can't complain about a neutral site tournament while wanting to bolt to a conference with a neutral site tournament. The case can be made that playing the tournament in St Louis is a lot better than playing it in Detroit. It seems Valpo needs to get used to the idea of a neutral site tournament.

Against seemingly popular sentiment, I too agree with PAUL and have from the start on this subject.  I've read all your concerns and some are interesting.

We sound like jilted lovers gents.  I'm also surprised at how much we refer to dominating the league.  Top 3 in final standings is nice....but 2 NCAA bids since joining the HL is not dominating.  I'd like to see us jump off our high horse just a tad more.

Still ecstatic about our future, just trying to tone down the rhetoric.  This is where Mick texts me that I'm a fair weather fan!!!!

[Pgmado]

You have all raised good points. Here are my thoughts regarding this whole thing. I have long been a fan of a one-site tournaments. From my perspective as a reporter, I like seeing all the other reporters, SIDs, administrators all in one place. I'm a fan of being able to cover nine games in a few days. I know that's a selfish take because I get a media pass to cover the games and I'm paid to be there.

From a fan's perspective, and even from a reporter, I love knowing at the beginning of the year where I'm going to be for the postseason. In 14-15, the title, and location of the conference tournament, came down to a 9p start on the last night of the regular season. Planning travel, hotel and coverage for the Horizon League tournament was a chore when you didn't know where it was going to be. These were things that you never had to worry about in the Mid-Con days. You knew when the schedule came out that you could plan a trip to Fort Wayne, Kansas City or Tulsa. Except for that time my buddies drove from Valpo to Tulsa to get there for the semifinals, only to have Valpo lose to Chicago State.

I was thrilled when I heard that the Horizon League was looking to move to a single-site. Was I thrilled with Detroit? Well, it didn't bother me when the Mid-Con moved the tourney to Kansas City. Did it bother YOU when the tourney was in Fort Wayne? Ok, maybe that wasn't a homecourt advantage for Valpo, but it was certainly much easier for Valpo to get there than it was for Oral Roberts, Southern Utah or Western Illinois.

I understand the frustration with Detroit. I understand people who don't like the proximity to Detroit and Oakland. Has it mattered? I know that two years isn't a large sample size, but you can't ignore the fact that Oakland had a NBA player last year and one of the best teams in program history this year and the Grizzlies have as many Motor City Madness wins as Valparaiso.

Would I have preferred Indianapolis as a tourney location? Of course. How about Chicago? Well, that doesn't work because you'd all be upset about UIC's proximity. Milwaukee is in the same boat because the Panthers would have a proximity advantage. Indianapolis is the only neutral-site tournament that would've seemingly made people happy unless the Horizon League moved to Fort Wayne. Since the league hasn't embraced IPFW as a member, I doubt the league tourney would be well-received in Fort Wayne. I suppose Columbus could've made some sense...but then you have to pay attention to the fact that the city of Detroit WANTED the tournament. Nobody else was knocking down the door asking to host the Horizon tourney.

Whether we like it or not, the NCAA (and the Horizon League) is a business. They're going to take guaranteed money where they can get it. We can all argue (and we have the data to prove it) that a neutral-site tourney will hurt the top teams in their quest to get to the NCAA tournament, therefore hurting the Horizon League's chance at getting an additional unit or two. That said, the Horizon League has stressed for years that it wants their programs to be "built for at-large." Whatever that means, it's been the go-to line for the conference leadership. I don't have the data in front of me, but a couple years ago I researched that it's been something like six or seven years since a on-campus tourney conference got an at-large bid. The Horizon League wants to grow its league into a model of what the Valley is. They've tried to build their conference tournament in that manner.

Let me ask you all this. It seems that many people around the Valley view St. Louis as their Holy Grail replacement for Wichita State. What say you if the Valley adds St. Louis, Valparaiso and Murray State? Would it bother you to be entering a league that had a team with the conference tourney in its own backyard?

People keep asking me whether or not I think it is a good idea for Valparaiso to move to the Valley. I'm completely torn. Bring Milwaukee to the Valley and I feel better about it. I'm bias because its my hometown and I like getting paid to go home. I also think Milwaukee is an important school for Valpo to continue to play. The games are typically great and the alumni base always comes out strong. I'm trying, but I just can't get excited about trips to Carbondale. (Of course, I've never been. It could become my new favorite city)

The Horizon League has some problems, no question. Players are transferring out at an alarming rate. Coaches are dropping quicker than they do in the NBA. The conference can't seem to be able to lock in a conference challenge with someone else. It's still allowing teams to play non-D1's. My point in my Twitter thread earlier and my point now is that I don't think Motor City Madness is in the top five of reasons Valpo should leave the conference.

It's not a hill I'm willing to die on, but it is something I'm willing to argue a bit, mostly because I'm sick of the rumor mill. I just want an answer and then I want the offseason to start!

[agibson]

and moving away from a lot of alumni bases.

I am a little uneasy about leaving Wisconsin and Michigan. I'd not even thought about Ohio.

And I will be a little sore if I never get to the Milwaukee away game.

St. Louis would be a nice addition, but I do wonder about the alumni outreach possibilities in the MVC.

[M]

MCM was neutral in name only...next year you can't even say that as both Detroit and Oakland will get to play a regular season game on the court. The HL is a dumpster fire that shows no signs of being put out.

Do you have any reasons that aren't personal for supporting mbb staying in the HL?

[VU2014]

We have to make this jump if the opportunity is given to us. The GOAL is to get in the BEST Conference possible that is within our geographical footprint. The outlook for becoming a 2-bid league consistently is stronger with the MVC.

MVC has much more committed schools to basketball then the HL. There are schools like Drake that haven't been great but they have the bones to be good with the right hires and scheduling and they spend $. I would rather have the poor teams in the conference be of the likes of Drake the YSU or CSU (which I get the transfers affected them).

Bottom line is the MVC fan-bases are more like Valpo and they actually CARE ABOUT BASKETBALL!! unlike many of the HL fan-bases. There is apathy in the HL which is never a good thing.

I get the concerns about leaving Wisconsin and Michigan but we can always schedule OOC games with many of those schools. You probably could get Detroit and Oakland (especially with Kampe) home and homes every other year and we could likely schedule UWM most years also and even Green Bay (far less appealing). I honestly think a few teams are starting to come back to life a bit because of recent hires in the HL but I don't trust those coaches to stay with their current teams 4-5yrs down the road.

There is NO "safe" conference for Mid-Majors anymore guys. There will alway be risk but you have to way that risk with the reward and I see more Long-term reward in the MVC.

[Pgmado]

MCM was neutral in name only...next year you can't even say that as both Detroit and Oakland will get to play a regular season game on the court. The HL is a dumpster fire that shows no signs of being put out.

Do you have any reasons that aren't personal for supporting mbb staying in the HL?

I wonder if the future of the Valley sans Wichita could look like the present of the Horizon sans Butler. What is to say that a Valley team doesn't get disenchanted with their conference in a couple years and bolt for greener pastures? Sometimes I'd rather dance with the devil I know than the devil i don't.

[M]

What's to say that team isn't Valpo?

[nkvu]

When NKU joined the Horizon I confess I enjoyed the fact that I could easily see Valpo play every year. When they played here in 2016 I actually saw my first game live since I was a student way back when. If they move to the MVC chances are I won't ever be able to see them live again. Still if that means they can play their conference tournament on a truely neutral site (assuming St. Louis doesn't move to the the MVC) I would support it. No excuses then if we gag in the conference tournament like we did the last two years. Every school will be in the same boat.  And since I think the NCAA has made  it abundantly clear that mid major conferences will not get more than one bid a truely neutral court conference tournament is extreemely important.

[VU2014]

ICYMI: If you'd like to vote. Almost 1,500 people have voted in this and Valpo is trailing. Murray State has had their President, ADs and all their media guys retweeting it out (ours have not and I can't blame them for not doing so). They are beating us currently in the poll. Mark Adams is saying he hopes the MVC presidents use this as data in the meetings or at least take notice to it. I doubt they will but you never know.

Vote for Valpo. Currently Murray State is winning in this poll b/c they have a large amount of active fans on Twitter (larger enrollment). If you don't have an account create a twitter account and join the other Valpo fans on twitter! Takes literally 1 minute. Sign up: https://twitter.com/signup?lang=en

https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/860467680863805440

[vu72]

When NKU joined the Horizon I confess I enjoyed the fact that I could easily see Valpo play every year. When they played here in 2016 I actually saw my first game live since I was a student way back when. If they move to the MVC chances are I won't ever be able to see them live again. Still if that means they can play their conference tournament on a truely neutral site (assuming St. Louis doesn't move to the the MVC) I would support it. No excuses then if we gag in the conference tournament like we did the last two years. Every school will be in the same boat.  And since I think the NCAA has made  it abundantly clear that mid major conferences will not get more than one bid a truely neutral court conference tournament is extreemely important.

How far is Evansville or Indiana State?  Can't be 3 hours, can it?

[oklahomamick]

I'm able to watch 3-4 live games a year coming from Tulsa.  Little Tulsa has direct flights to Detroit, Chicago and Cincinnati.  It was usually a just a 2 hour flight. 

However there are no direct flights to Cedar Rapids, Carbondale, terra haute.  I will most likely not see as many live games moving to the mvc.  But that's selfish we must take our promotion if given. 

As a fan base we must make a strong showing at march madness next year.  Obviously it's easier if the team is winning, but regardless, if in lets make a commitment to arch madness. 

[usc4valpo]

If Valpo stays in the Horizon, I would like to see two actions items:

1. get rid of LeCrone. He is an overpaid schmck and makes Steinbrecher competent.
2. Move the post regular season tournament  to to the new Wintrust arena in Chicago. there is more to do and better dining in Chicago.

[nkvu]

When NKU joined the Horizon I confess I enjoyed the fact that I could easily see Valpo play every year. When they played here in 2016 I actually saw my first game live since I was a student way back when. If they move to the MVC chances are I won't ever be able to see them live again. Still if that means they can play their conference tournament on a truely neutral site (assuming St. Louis doesn't move to the the MVC) I would support it. No excuses then if we gag in the conference tournament like we did the last two years. Every school will be in the same boat.  And since I think the NCAA has made  it abundantly clear that mid major conferences will not get more than one bid a truely neutral court conference tournament is extreemely important.

How far is Evansville or Indiana State?  Can't be 3 hours, can it?

Almost exactly 3 hours from where I live to each.

[humbleopinion]

I guess I qualify as an old-timer. 

My initial reaction to the proposed move was that I enjoy going to games, watching the Crusaders win (rpi be damned, I leave the arc feeling better after a win than a loss to even a powerhouse) and watching Valpo in the NCAA.  I figured that those feeling s would be less likely in the MVC. After reading all of the opinions ad nauseam, I have warmed to the idea of playing teams that have more tradition and were rivals in the past.  I remember the floats from Homecoming parades when we would take on the Aces, and the banners from the ICC hanging in the gym.  At this point, I'm not as invested as many of you whether we go or stay, but it would be demeaning if we don't get invited.

[VU2014]

If Valpo stays in the Horizon, I would like to see two actions items:

1. get rid of LeCrone. He is an overpaid schmck and makes Steinbrecher competent.
2. Move the post regular season tournament  to to the new Wintrust arena in Chicago. there is more to do and better dining in Chicago.

I would add one more:

3. add OCC scheduling standards to the HL. It is really important ALL schools pull their weight in OOC and don't schedule to many cupcake games that end up hurting the higher seeds. It would take will power from Presidents and ADs to this.

[Just Sayin]

Who cares?? That pole doesn't matter for anything.

If you don't see the pole while driving, it could mean quite a lot to you.

[VU2014]

I just checked over on the Murray State message board too see what they're talking/feeling about the MVC and someone just posted this on their MVC discussion thread lol

"Over 1500 votes on Mark Adams' twitter poll over a few days. 50% Racers, 42% Crusaders, 5% Omaha, 3% Milwaukee.

Between that and posts on MVCfans/twitter, pretty clear the Valley audience clamors for both Murray/Valpo and 11.

Very obvious decision to make for the presidents. They risk public backlash if they only take Valpo for 10. Hopefully they stick with 11 to save MVCfans bandwidth from PantherU."

They aren't even in a conference with PantherU and he's already managed to annoy a large chunk of the MVC and Murray State fans lol.

https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17987&sid=6ce472438d9437f1d035f9ef1830d358&start=580

[a3uge]

If Valpo stays in the Horizon, I would like to see two actions items:

1. get rid of LeCrone. He is an overpaid schmck and makes Steinbrecher competent.
2. Move the post regular season tournament  to to the new Wintrust arena in Chicago. there is more to do and better dining in Chicago.

I would add one more:

3. add OCC scheduling standards to the HL. It is really important ALL schools pull their weight in OOC and don't schedule to many cupcake games that end up hurting the higher seeds. It would take will power from Presidents and ADs to this.

Not to beat a dead horse, but a big problem with the league has been teams that schedule too tough, not teams with too soft of schedules. UIC going winless out of conference is devastating to the conference. Had they scheduled some SWAC and MEAC teams a few years ago, the whole conferences RPI would have improved quite a bit.

[FieldGoodie05]

I just checked over on the Murray State message board too see what they're talking/feeling about the MVC and someone just posted this on their MVC discussion thread lol

"Over 1500 votes on Mark Adams' twitter poll over a few days. 50% Racers, 42% Crusaders, 5% Omaha, 3% Milwaukee.

Between that and posts on MVCfans/twitter, pretty clear the Valley audience clamors for both Murray/Valpo and 11.

Very obvious decision to make for the presidents. They risk public backlash if they only take Valpo for 10. Hopefully they stick with 11 to save MVCfans bandwidth from PantherU."

They aren't even in a conference with PantherU and he's already managed to annoy a large chunk of the MVC and Murray State fans lol.

https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17987&sid=6ce472438d9437f1d035f9ef1830d358&start=580

I'm not sold on ONLY Valpo or ONLY MSU.  It's got to be both or nothing. 

If they only add (1) school that program will be setup for hatred league wide for falling short.  BECAUSE ANY SCHOOL REPLACING WSU WILL FALL SHORT IN THE 5-year.

What's a reason against making it 11-teams?  Make a list like the MVC board has likely done.

1) revenue sharing reduction
2) ____________.
3) ____________.

[StlVUFan]

Then once We assumed the mantle and began dominating the league, miraculously everyone had a change of heart. So they vote to move the thing to Detroit and make up some bogus excuse about wanting to look like the big boys

I fear you are conflating the ADs with the fans here.

I've conversed with fans of other HL teams and every one of them has rejected my position that a neutral site (and getting rid of the double-byes) is the right thing to do.  PantherU was quite vocal in 2016 that Valpo was getting screwed.  And he's not the only one.

At the risk of  I'm going to state again that this idea of rewarding the best teams is flawed because the extravagance of reward is not suitable to the incredibly small sample size of games played.  I continue to reject the notion that we have a reliable basis year in and year out to identify who the best teams are (and if we did it would be criminal to subject them to a full conference tournament, they should be able to just play each other for the auto-bid; if there's only one best team, then that team should just be given the auto-bid because they earned it).

As for moving to the MVC, obviously if Valpo receives the invite they can't be blamed by anyone for accepting it, and should probably strongly consider it.  I should point out that the talk in here is starting to sound highly "Big-Time" and not in a good way, as if academics doesn't matter.  Maybe that's not what people mean, but that's the way it comes across.  I am allergic to any impulse to tell administrators to get out of the way of athletics.  I don't think athletics should be subjugated to academics either (though they were at my alma mater - Rose Hulman Institute of Technologies - where coaches punished athletes if they cut a lab in order to practice with the team), but I think *both* are important and *both* deserve their due.  I don't personally care about the quality of education at VU all that much because I'm not an alum and that's not what draws me.  But I'm also not interested in telling teachers and admins to go fly a kite if they have concerns.

As for the bloodthirsty nature of conference realignment and the embrace of such here by some, I'm not a fan of that either.  It made sense at the time and I warmed to it fairly quickly, but I was still sad to leave the Mid-Con because at the time, it left that conference weakened a bit.  It seems they have recovered.  But it's more than that.  This idea that conference relationships are so transitory is kind of off-putting.  I'm really enjoying all the new friends I've made in the HL, and if there weren't a conflict in schedule between the two - and assuming Valpo moves to the MVC - I'd probably still go to MCM next year as well as Arch Madness.  I'm retiring soon, so I'll probably keep up the On The Horizon blog even if we leave, as well as start one about the Valley.  I want to go see Valpo play at BB&T Arena many more times, and I always enjoy the Wisconsin trip, including friends I've made at both places.

And of course - warm up your groans, ladies and gentlemen - I want to keep making the Michigan trip.  I want us to keep playing Oakland, and I want to keep in touch with my pal, coach Kampe.  If it makes you feel any better, I don't blame you guys for being put off with some of the questionable characters he's recruited lately.  They give me pause too.

I don't expect the mid-major conference landscape to stabilize into some idealistic promised land, and I don't expect individual schools not to evaluate their affiliations and try to improve them.  I just find it distasteful, that's all.

And frankly, all of this shuffling around skirts the one core issue that none of our schools have much control over (which is why I don't blame them too much): the utter, corrupt travesty that is the state of non-conference scheduling in NCAA Division I sports.  If the NCAA would get serious about solving that problem (and Mark Adams made a very worthy opening salvo in that conversation last year), we wouldn't *need* to be constantly searching for greener pastures every year.  We wouldn't need to rig our conference tourneys to try to game out the maximum potential for NCAA tournament wins (again: if the perks are truly being earned, then we aren't going *far enough* - should just do away with tourney and send them - but I insist that the perks *aren't* truly earned).  We could just freely admit that 18 games (playing each team only twice) is not enough to determine who stands out as the best team(s), and just enjoy the conventional conference tournament for what it is: a foretaste of March Madness.

By the way, I'll give you guys props for using the word "reward" rather than the word "protect" when referring to the "best teams".  "Protect" has always absolutely rubbed me the wrong way.  The notion that the "best team" needs to be protected - if that's not snowflake behavior then I don't understand what that word means.