Neutral site for HL Tourney?

[valpotx]

Do we need to leave you two alone in the forum, for a few minutes?

[wh]

This is just part of the big picture.  More important than the tournament format is the distressing trend regarding the lack of respect our conference is commanding in recent years.  Policies concerning OOC strength of schedule need to be enacted NOW.  We got out of the Mid-Con for a better conference and now we are right back to where we started. Since Butler left, the Summit League has received a higher seeding than the Horizon in each of the last three years... oh, and they have a traditional format tournament.  In my eyes getting this league into the top 10 conferences is more important than the tournament format.  This goal is part of the league's mission statement and right now we are going backwards!

Absolutely right. The fact that the HL promotes itself as a "Top 12" conference, yet has no system to enforce quality OOC scheduling, is an absolute joke.  Can anyone possibly believe that an opportunist like Donlon, looking to build his resume in hopes of a better gig, is concerned about doing his part to improve HL OOC scheduling?  Is anyone naive enough think a guy like Moore, who is trying to hang on the to the gig he has, is concerned about anything other than finding somebody - anybody - they can beat?  The longer as HL Central continues to allow the inmates to run the asylum instead of taking control of this, the greater the risk that this year's 14 will be next year's 15 and the following year's 16.   

[valpo64]

It is beginning to sound like the HL Commish is floundering like his Butler buddies.

[a3uge]

I don't even understand the incentive to have Wright State's schedule. I'm thinking teams just have a hard time finding good teams to schedule, especially at home.

[wh]

I don't even understand the incentive to have Wright State's schedule. I'm thinking teams just have a hard time finding good teams to schedule, especially at home.

With their entire team returning and the added benefit of a terrible OOC schedule, the table was set for WSU to win 25 to 28 games this season - had they not underperformed.  Imagine if WSU was 27-8 right now as they probably should be. Donlon's stock would be on the rise big time right now.  It's all about wins and losses in the coaching profession.  As to the lame "we just can't find any good teams that want to play us" excuse, look for a dramatic improvement nothing short of a miracle the second the conference establishes OOC scheduling standards similar to the A-10.

[a3uge]

I don't even understand the incentive to have Wright State's schedule. I'm thinking teams just have a hard time finding good teams to schedule, especially at home.

With their entire team returning and the added benefit of a terrible OOC schedule, the table was set for WSU to win 25 to 28 games this season - had they not underperformed.  Imagine if WSU was 27-8 right now as they probably should be. Donlon's stock would be on the rise big time right now.  It's all about wins and losses in the coaching profession.  As to the lame "we just can't find any good teams that want to play us" excuse, look for a dramatic improvement nothing short of a miracle the second the conference establishes OOC scheduling standards similar to the A-10.

You're probably right, but a bad ooc schedule leaves your RPI in shambles, especially if you end up losing to a team like, let's just throw one out at random, North Carolina A&T. RPI drives the 13-16 seeds, seeds drive winning percentages, and winning in the Dance drives coaching jobs. See FGCU. They didn't have a good record but were prepared to play - they actually had beaten Miami (FL) at the beginning of the year.

[Big D]

Absolutely right. The fact that the HL promotes itself as a "Top 12" conference, yet has no system to enforce quality OOC scheduling, is an absolute joke.  Can anyone possibly believe that an opportunist like Donlon, looking to build his resume in hopes of a better gig, is concerned about doing his part to improve HL OOC scheduling?  Is anyone naive enough think a guy like Moore, who is trying to hang on the to the gig he has, is concerned about anything other than finding somebody - anybody - they can beat?  The longer as HL Central continues to allow the inmates to run the asylum instead of taking control of this, the greater the risk that this year's 14 will be next year's 15 and the following year's 16.   

You guys really need to take a look at the way conference RPI works.  SOS does not mean jack   when it comes to conference rankings.  WINNING PERCENTAGE is what really matters.  The HL would actually be much better off in conference rankings if everyone dropped all of the D2/D3/NAIA games we played and scheduled the lowest possible ranked D1 teams AND won those games.  Six of the 13 conferences ranked higher than the HL played a weaker OOC SOS than us (AAC, WCC, MWC, MVC, MAC, and Conf USA).  The difference is they won most of their games.  The HL was 51-60 in OOC play vs D1 teams giving us a 46% winning percentage.  EVERY single conference ranked above us had a winning percentage better than ours.  Every conference that finished below us had a lower winning percentage than ours except the Ivy league.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html

I'm all for everyone in the HL playing a tougher OOC schedule, but we also need to schedule responsibly.  We all need to try to play all D1 games so they count in our winning percentage and we need to try to schedule games we have a legit chance to win.  Many fans would prefer that everyone schedule like Oakland did last year.  If everyone in the HL took that approach, we would be a bottom 5 conference because we would never win any games.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I'm all for everyone in the HL playing a tougher OOC schedule, but we also need to schedule responsibly.  We all need to try to play all D1 games so they count in our winning percentage and we need to try to schedule games we have a legit chance to win.

...yeah, but ultimately, we don't give a crap about conference rankings.  we care more about our RPI.

non-D1s don't affect RPI.  scheduling the likes of NC A&T does.

especially losing to them.

[Big D]

I'm all for everyone in the HL playing a tougher OOC schedule, but we also need to schedule responsibly.  We all need to try to play all D1 games so they count in our winning percentage and we need to try to schedule games we have a legit chance to win.

...yeah, but ultimately, we don't give a crap about conference rankings.  we care more about our RPI.

non-D1s don't affect RPI.  scheduling the likes of NC A&T does.

especially losing to them.

If you care more about your RPI maybe you should have scheduled more teams you could beat.  Our SOS might have stunk but we won more games than Valpo AND we finished with a better RPI than Valpo.   

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Our SOS might have stunk but we won more games than Valpo

DUH.  That's why you won more games.  You were playing high school teams.

[wh]

I agree with most of BigD's post, but would add to 2 of his comments:

I'm all for everyone in the HL playing a tougher OOC schedule, but we also need to schedule responsibly.  We all need to try to play all D1 games so they count in our winning percentage and we need to try to schedule games we have a legit chance to win.   

Part of the equation is scheduling games we have a legit chance to win.  The other part is to elevate recruiting to where we can play better quality OOC opponents and still have a legit chance to win.


Many fans would prefer that everyone schedule like Oakland did last year.  If everyone in the HL took that approach, we would be a bottom 5 conference because we would never win any games. 

Again, the only way Oakland's approach would have any benefit is if they elevated their recruiting (like some Butler teams of the past, Gonzaga, etc.) to where they had a legitimate chance to win those games.  As it stands, Kampe put together what was probably the most counterproductive, borderline irresponsible OOC schedule in D-1. They had an awful OOC record, they were on the road far too much, and their fans lost interest before the conference season even started. If the program's that desperate for money, they'd better get a new A.D. 

[Big D]

Our SOS might have stunk but we won more games than Valpo

DUH.  That's why you won more games.  You were playing high school teams.

I think you are getting confused.  I know Valpo plays in a high school gym, but both wins we picked up against you this year count as D1 wins. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

both wins we picked up against you this year count as D1 wins. 

In the words of Ray Zalinsky:
Well, kid, you threw one by me.
Savor the flavor, because it sure as hell won't happen again.
In the meantime, good luck to you.


In the words of me: 
wake me when you win the HL.  i mean, assuming you will someday.  hey, you were 2nd that one time!  that's good, right?

EDIT HEY 3K POSTS.  not what I would've designed for for my 3Kth, but hey, stuff happens.

[historyman]

Many fans would prefer that everyone schedule like Oakland did last year.  If everyone in the HL took that approach, we would be a bottom 5 conference because we would never win any games.

I don't believe anyone on this board agreed with the way Oakland was scheduling the OOC. Even Kampe has said he will tone it down now that the Grizz are in the HL. Where did you get the idea that many fans want to schedule their OOC the way OU does?

[a3uge]

Absolutely right. The fact that the HL promotes itself as a "Top 12" conference, yet has no system to enforce quality OOC scheduling, is an absolute joke.  Can anyone possibly believe that an opportunist like Donlon, looking to build his resume in hopes of a better gig, is concerned about doing his part to improve HL OOC scheduling?  Is anyone naive enough think a guy like Moore, who is trying to hang on the to the gig he has, is concerned about anything other than finding somebody - anybody - they can beat?  The longer as HL Central continues to allow the inmates to run the asylum instead of taking control of this, the greater the risk that this year's 14 will be next year's 15 and the following year's 16.   

You guys really need to take a look at the way conference RPI works.  SOS does not mean jack  when it comes to conference rankings.  WINNING PERCENTAGE is what really matters.  The HL would actually be much better off in conference rankings if everyone dropped all of the D2/D3/NAIA games we played and scheduled the lowest possible ranked D1 teams AND won those games.  Six of the 13 conferences ranked higher than the HL played a weaker OOC SOS than us (AAC, WCC, MWC, MVC, MAC, and Conf USA).  The difference is they won most of their games.  The HL was 51-60 in OOC play vs D1 teams giving us a 46% winning percentage.  EVERY single conference ranked above us had a winning percentage better than ours.  Every conference that finished below us had a lower winning percentage than ours except the Ivy league.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html

I'm all for everyone in the HL playing a tougher OOC schedule, but we also need to schedule responsibly.  We all need to try to play all D1 games so they count in our winning percentage and we need to try to schedule games we have a legit chance to win.  Many fans would prefer that everyone schedule like Oakland did last year.  If everyone in the HL took that approach, we would be a bottom 5 conference because we would never win any games.

Maybe YOU need to look at how RPI works and realize that the strength of teams you play DOES affect RPI. Oakland finished 11-22 and Wright State is 18-14... Do you know how many spots separate Wright State and Oakland in RPI? SEVEN. A win over a 300+ RPI team will actually bring your overall RPI WORSE and not better. A loss to loss to a top 10 team will actually bring your RPI LOWER, not higher. I'm not advocating a schedule like Oakland. You still need to win a majority of your games. But scheduling too many teams like North Carolina A&T leaves absolutely no room to lose those games. I said it at the beginning of the season - if Wright State didn't have a win against Georgetown they'd have to win virtually all of their other games to even be close to a respectable RPI. I ran the RPI wizard and simulated all 200+ RPI losses as wins and it had Wright State as a 126 RPI, which is 15-16 seed territory. For kicks, I simmed all Wright State OOC games as wins, minus the Georgetown loss, and their RPI would've been EIGHTY STILL! 12-1 OOC... EIGHTY.

So don't lecture us on RPI and scheduling non D1 schools (which has nothing to do with RPI) when you have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

And sorry we don't have state funds to hire Tom Hanks for stadium advocation. Why don't you worry about your own school and figure out how you couldnt win against North Carolina A&T with a team full of seniors. Come in here and troll us about our stadium... Smh.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Come in here and troll us about our stadium... Smh.

brothers don't shake hands,

brothers gotta hug.

[a3uge]

Proof of concept:



The top simulates games without the 325+ RPI teams. The bottom simulates games with the 325+ RPI teams. As your team gets better, the bad SOS affects your RPI negatively, and in this case it's literally the difference between at large talks and a potential 14-15 seed.

[justducky]

Absolutely right. The fact that the HL promotes itself as a "Top 12" conference, yet has no system to enforce quality OOC scheduling, is an absolute joke.

I'm all for everyone in the HL playing a tougher OOC schedule, but we also need to schedule responsibly.

Is there enough agreement here that we can begin a rational discussion towards a phased-in implementation of strength of schedule standards? Something with sufficient financial penalty teeth that ambitious coaches will be held in restraint from above? Obviously this handshake, honor system "we will do our best" approach just ain't gonna cut it.

In retrospect this is something that should have started before Butler and Loyola left but it still is not too late. If this has to be a bottoms up movement by HL fans then lets get started.

[Big D]

Maybe YOU need to look at how RPI works and realize that the strength of teams you play DOES affect RPI. Oakland finished 11-22 and Wright State is 18-14... Do you know how many spots separate Wright State and Oakland in RPI? SEVEN. A win over a 300+ RPI team will actually bring your overall RPI WORSE and not better. A loss to loss to a top 10 team will actually bring your RPI LOWER, not higher. I'm not advocating a schedule like Oakland. You still need to win a majority of your games. But scheduling too many teams like North Carolina A&T leaves absolutely no room to lose those games. I said it at the beginning of the season - if Wright State didn't have a win against Georgetown they'd have to win virtually all of their other games to even be close to a respectable RPI. I ran the RPI wizard and simulated all 200+ RPI losses as wins and it had Wright State as a 126 RPI, which is 15-16 seed territory. For kicks, I simmed all Wright State OOC games as wins, minus the Georgetown loss, and their RPI would've been EIGHTY STILL! 12-1 OOC... EIGHTY.

You really have a reading comprehension skill problem.  Go back and read my post again.  I advocated playing a tougher overall schedule but more importantly I advocated playing an all D1 schedule because D1 wins matters much more than SOS.  I also proved my point by showing the data that backs it up.  Look at the American Athletic Conference as the perfect example.  Their conference finished ranked 8th in conference RPI.  Their overall OOC SOS was 26th.  Compare that to the HL's conference ranking of 14th and SOS of 13th.  The difference is the AAC went 88-35 in OOC play for a 72% winning percentage.  The HL went 51-60 in OOC play vs D1 teams.  I cannot remember off hand but I believe the HL played 19 non-D1 games this year.  If all of those games would have been against low majors and we won all of those games the HL would have been 70-60 in OOC play and we would have finished in 12th place in conference RPI instead of 14th. If Oakland would have schedule 3-4 mid-majors they could have beaten instead of all of the BCS schools they lost to and my Raiders would have won the OOC games we should have won, than the HL would have finished in 10th or 11th place in conference RPI.   Each individual HL team would have had a higher RPI too because we would have each had a higher winning %.  That higher winning percentage affects all 3 parts of the RPI equation. 

[a3uge]

Maybe YOU need to look at how RPI works and realize that the strength of teams you play DOES affect RPI. Oakland finished 11-22 and Wright State is 18-14... Do you know how many spots separate Wright State and Oakland in RPI? SEVEN. A win over a 300+ RPI team will actually bring your overall RPI WORSE and not better. A loss to loss to a top 10 team will actually bring your RPI LOWER, not higher. I'm not advocating a schedule like Oakland. You still need to win a majority of your games. But scheduling too many teams like North Carolina A&T leaves absolutely no room to lose those games. I said it at the beginning of the season - if Wright State didn't have a win against Georgetown they'd have to win virtually all of their other games to even be close to a respectable RPI. I ran the RPI wizard and simulated all 200+ RPI losses as wins and it had Wright State as a 126 RPI, which is 15-16 seed territory. For kicks, I simmed all Wright State OOC games as wins, minus the Georgetown loss, and their RPI would've been EIGHTY STILL! 12-1 OOC... EIGHTY.

You really have a reading comprehension skill problem.  Go back and read my post again.  I advocated playing a tougher overall schedule but more importantly I advocated playing an all D1 schedule because D1 wins matters much more than SOS.  I also proved my point by showing the data that backs it up.  Look at the American Athletic Conference as the perfect example.  Their conference finished ranked 8th in conference RPI.  Their overall OOC SOS was 26th.  Compare that to the HL's conference ranking of 14th and SOS of 13th.  The difference is the AAC went 88-35 in OOC play for a 72% winning percentage.  The HL went 51-60 in OOC play vs D1 teams.  I cannot remember off hand but I believe the HL played 19 non-D1 games this year.  If all of those games would have been against low majors and we won all of those games the HL would have been 70-60 in OOC play and we would have finished in 12th place in conference RPI instead of 14th. If Oakland would have schedule 3-4 mid-majors they could have beaten instead of all of the BCS schools they lost to and my Raiders would have won the OOC games we should have won, than the HL would have finished in 10th or 11th place in conference RPI.   Each individual HL team would have had a higher RPI too because we would have each had a higher winning %.  That higher winning percentage affects all 3 parts of the RPI equation.

You say I have a reading comprehension skill problem and completely ignore proof that going 12-1 with 2 300+ RPI in the schedule was actually significantly worse than going 10-1 without those two games. It would have been better for Wright State to NOT play the games and play non D1 schools instead. Again, take CSU. They played Ball State. Terrible team. Had they played a D2 team instead, their RPI would have been 86 instead of 91. Oakland played 4 teams with a top 25 RPI. Dropping those games simulated their RPI to 195 instead of 181.

Whom you play has more of an effect on RPI than your W/L record. Wichita State is 4th in RPI. Kansas has 9 losses and is 3rd. North Carolina A&T has 9 wins but their RPI is actually worse than Cornell's, whom went 1-26. Pretending you can schedule in more NC A&Ts and Chicago States to achieve a higher RPI is inaccurate. Scheduling teams like that is really bad for the league, and it's even worse when you lose to them.

Scheduling like Oakland is irresponsible, but so is scheduling like Wright State. The league needs to step in and provide sanctions for a schedule like that. North Carolina A&T, Alcorn State, South Alabama, UMKC, HOUSTON BAPTIST? In the same year? None of those teams have been the least bit successful in the past couple of years. That's far more irresponsible than playing too many top 25 teams, which actually HELPS your RPI.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

[oklahomamick]

Speaking of non conference schedules, Detroit will be hosting Wichita State next year. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Speaking of non conference schedules, Detroit will be hosting Wichita State next year.

shocker


...


ok, sorry.  low-hanging fruit is often the tastiest.

[VULB#62]

Speaking of non conference schedules, Detroit will be hosting Wichita State next year.

Why would WSU want to play at Detroit Mercy (unless it's at a bigger venue)?

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Why would WSU want to play at Detroit Mercy (unless it's at a bigger venue)?

very winnable road game vs. team that won't be horrible = nice RPI boost