Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[VUGrad1314]

So it sounds like Colorado State and Air Force have turned down the AAC leaving the AAC to likely look to CUSA or the Sun Belt for candidates. It's possible they can still come out of this looking okay but this is a blow to them to be sure. They might still be able to make some additions to still be attractive to Wichita State but it would appear that there is a real possibility that no matter what the AAC does they will be behind the Mountain West in football putting that conference in play for SMU Tulsa and perhaps Wichita State (and Gonzaga) as well as Tulane Of course SMU could still get a Big XII invite as well but I think they will be passed over as long as TCU is a member The only way I see the AAC staying ahead of the Mountain West is if they sell out completely for football which will cost them Wichita State Make no mistake keeping Colorado State is huge for the Mountain West because it should still be attractive as a basketball landing spot even if Boise State eventually leaves. The AAC unless it can somehow thread the needle perfectly will be faced with the painful choice of trying to keep SMU or Wichita State and might end up losing both regardless of what they do.

[wh]

I would love to see Wichita State come back to the MVC but I don't see their egos allowing that to ever happen

About the same as Saint Louis coming back to the MVC. Try putting that on their message board to see what reaction you get.

In all due respect to SLU fans, what they think is meaningless. The fact is SLU is in severe financial distress, including projected budget shortfalls and severe cash flow issues. In response, they have taken significant cost reduction measures, including no travel by faculty and staff. At the same time, they have men's and women's athletic teams hobnobbing all over the Atlantic seaboard. Their closest conference competitor Dayton is nearly 400 miles away. Their farthest Fordham is 1000 miles away. That is a crazy waste of money by any measure in our current COVID world. If they're not considering the MVC, their President should be fired.

That said, I couldn't care less whether SLU joins the Valley, or not. I detest people with chips on their shoulders or an aura of arrogance. The same goes for Wichita State. Anyone who thinks they would be "settling" by joining the MVC, stay where you are and deal with the consequences. We should ONLY want universities that are excited to join.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/slu-expects-20-million-deficit-from-coronavirus-fallout-up-to-75-million-loss-next-year/article_33bb48aa-ec63-5515-9ada-323504147055.html

[valpo tundra]

That article about Slu is almost a year and a half old and the predictions did not lead to a worst case scenario. In fact, they are no worse off than most schools in the same predicament from the last couple of years. 

[wh]

Without knowing their current enrollment numbers, I'm not in a position to agree or disagree about their current financial health in the aftermath of COVID, or how they compare to other universities. It really doesn't matter. My larger point remains unchanged. I'm not interested in SLU.

[VUGrad1314]

And I believe that that your opinion on SLU would reverse 180 degrees if it came out that they had legitimate interest in the MVC Did you have the same opinion on Belmont when it looked like they were thumbing their noses at the MVC's advances and if so has your opinion changed now that they are in? Just curious Like for instance I took a lot of shots at Belmont for not accepting the challenge and moving up to the MVC in 2017 but now that they're here and have taken the challenge I respect and welcome them as a conference mate and peer.

[wh]

The thought never occurred to me that Belmont declined because they thought they were too good for the Valley. Apples and oranges.

Besides, if Valpo Tundra is correct about SLU's financial condition, they wouldn't be interested anyway. They're far better off traveling half way across the country to play in another mid major conference.

[VUGrad1314]

I'm honestly more concerned with our conference potentially thinking they're too good for Murray State That would be the height of arrogance right there I hope we're just waiting on a few particulars to be sorted out before we extend them an invite. I really hope we don't go for some dead weight program just because they're in a big market. That would be so short sighted

[vu84v2]

I don't see SLU returning to the MVC unless the conference were to somehow rise to the level of one of the Power 5+1 conferences or the A10 completely disbands. Besides the points raised here (including the financial issues, which they are still dealing with), there are two reasons: which schools they view as their peers and which schools students choose if they decide not to go to SLU. In the former case, SLU views its peers as Creighton, Marquette, DePaul, Xavier - along with other non-midwestern Jesuit schools like Georgetown and Boston College. There is no one in the  MVC who SLU's administrators see as a peer. Further, students that are interested in SLU who decide not to go there are likely going to Missouri, Illinois, other Big Ten schools, or the schools listed previously. It seems that there would be very few students that had considered SLU that decide to go to SIU, Illinois State or Missouri State (maybe a few for Bradley).

Note that if Belmont seriously considered not joining the MVC, it may be for similar reasons. However, the overriding factor is likely that the OVC is disintegrating and they have to do something. And it could end up being a win-win for Belmont and the MVC.

[bbtds]

I'm honestly more concerned with our conference potentially thinking they're too good for Murray State That would be the height of arrogance right there I hope we're just waiting on a few particulars to be sorted out before we extend them an invite. I really hope we don't go for some dead weight program just because they're in a big market. That would be so short sighted

It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.

[VUGrad1314]

I'm honestly more concerned with our conference potentially thinking they're too good for Murray State That would be the height of arrogance right there I hope we're just waiting on a few particulars to be sorted out before we extend them an invite. I really hope we don't go for some dead weight program just because they're in a big market. That would be so short sighted

It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.

I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.

[vu72]

As I've stated and posted before, academic performance does now play into the size of the payout for basketball shares.  Whether that is a good reason to reject a particular school is another/different question.

[bbtds]

As I've stated and posted before, academic performance does now play into the size of the payout for basketball shares.  Whether that is a good reason to reject a particular school is another/different question.

Got this straight from the Murray State Athletics website.

The Fall 2020 semester saw record production by the Racers in the classroom, including an extension of the most important streak in MSU athletics history, a now 33-consecutive semesters of a department-wide GPA of 3.0 or better. The 3.22 GPA is the second-highest in the history of the 33 semester streak, surpassed only by a 3.32 achieved in the spring of 2020. In addition, 13 of 15 teams had a GPA of 3.0 or better, led by an impressive 3.65 from women's soccer. Individually, 12 of the 15 Murray State teams outperformed their 15-year average in the Fall of 2020. Those teams that outperformed their average were baseball, men's basketball, women's basketball, women's cross country, football, women's golf, rifle, women's soccer, softball, women's tennis and indoor and outdoor women's track and field.

Those aren't that great for academic numbers. Compare that to Valpo. They are bragging about the improvement of their academic numbers which means they've been pretty poor in the past. 3.0? 3.22?

[vuny98]

As I've stated and posted before, academic performance does now play into the size of the payout for basketball shares.  Whether that is a good reason to reject a particular school is another/different question.

Got this straight from the Murray State Athletics website. The Fall 2020 semester saw record production by the Racers in the classroom, including an extension of the most important streak in MSU athletics history, a now 33-consecutive semesters of a department-wide GPA of 3.0 or better. The 3.22 GPA is the second-highest in the history of the 33 semester streak, surpassed only by a 3.32 achieved in the spring of 2020. In addition, 13 of 15 teams had a GPA of 3.0 or better, led by an impressive 3.65 from women's soccer. Individually, 12 of the 15 Murray State teams outperformed their 15-year average in the Fall of 2020. Those teams that outperformed their average were baseball, men's basketball, women's basketball, women's cross country, football, women's golf, rifle, women's soccer, softball, women's tennis and indoor and outdoor women's track and field. Those aren't that great for academic numbers. Compare that to Valpo. They are bragging about the improvement of their academic numbers which means they've been pretty poor in the past. 3.0? 3.22?

GPA is also a misleading reference point. A 3.0 at an Ivy League school vs a 3.0 at a local community college are two very different things.

[vuny98]

I'm honestly more concerned with our conference potentially thinking they're too good for Murray State That would be the height of arrogance right there I hope we're just waiting on a few particulars to be sorted out before we extend them an invite. I really hope we don't go for some dead weight program just because they're in a big market. That would be so short sighted

It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.

I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.

Some may say that giving an invite to school only because they are currently a high performer in basketball without taking into consideration all of the other aspects of how that school may or may not fit in with the rest of the conference would be stupid short-sighted and ridiculous.

And to be clear, I'll be very happy if Murray gets the invite.

[VUGrad1314]

It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.

I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.

Some may say that giving an invite to school only because they are currently a high performer in basketball without taking into consideration all of the other aspects of how that school may or may not fit in with the rest of the conference would be stupid short-sighted and ridiculous. And to be clear, I'll be very happy if Murray gets the invite.

That argument would hold a lot more water if we were talking about a flavor of the month program like Oral Roberts or a Johnny Come Lately like Northern Kentucky but Murray State is a whole different animal. This isn't some program that is "Currently a high performer in men's basketball" this is a program that has performed to higher standards than even many within the MVC and has done so through multiple ADs and coaches (Newton Edgar Gottfired Anderson Cronin Prohm McMahon). They have AVERAGED 21.7 wins over a 34 year span since 1987-88. In that span they have 15 tournament appearances four tournament wins 5 NIT trips including an NIT Quarterfinal and a CIT Championship (as well as winning the now defunct Great Alaska Shootout in 2011). They are a program steeped in tradition. But by all means let's add Milwaukee or UIC or Arlington and pat ourselves on the back because the average USNWR ranking went up or we added an R1 institution. That's going to sell tickets at Arch Madness and put butts in the seats during games. Like it or not athletics makes money. If we as a league want to make money for our member institutions there is only one choice for #12.


Additionally it's high time we threw the publics a bone. Every addition to this league since Tulsa's departure in 1994 has been a private school (Evansville Loyola Valpo Belmont). There was a time when they had to do that in order to keep schools like Bradley and Creighton in the fold and it's true that two of those were replacing departed private schools (Evansville replacing Tulsa and Loyola replacing Creighton) but the publics gave up their advantage in the conference when Wichita State left to accommodate the privates and bring us in to bring the count level. We upset the publics at our own peril. If we don't give them something it's very possible schools like Missouri State Illinois State and possibly Northern Iowa could explore other options which would leave us as a much worse overall conference. We upset the publics at our own peril as a conference and like it or not we need each other if we want to be the best conference we can be. It's time for the private schools to reciprocate and in this climate where at large bids are scarce it needs to be a basketball add. Being arrogant about academics now will cost us in the long run. To me there is only one choice.  Really I just hope we hear something soon Anything The silence is killing me.


For a cautionary tale look no further than the OVC. Ten years ago they had a chance to further solidify themselves in both football and basketball after adding Belmont by adding Northern Kentucky and North Alabama. The conference refused for strange reasons and is now in the process of being dismantled. The MVC has much more tradition than the OVC ever did but it's not like the OVC has a nothing history. We could end up much worse off than we are now in the long run if we don't prioritize the sport that drives the bus in this league. Basketball needs to be first second and third. If Murray was constantly in APR hell like a lot of other OVC schools have been that would be one thing but they aren't. They aren't a powerhouse but it's not like they're a rock academy either. It's not like we're adding schools like Liberty or GCU with very dubious academic reputations. If we were I'd be much more receptive to the academic argument. Murray State isn't great academically but it's not as far off from the rest of the MVC as we like to believe and it certainly belongs in athletics and fills a hole in the footprint between Belmont and SIU\Evansville. They need to be the clear choice for #12.


They are putting major money into facilities as well. They are long overdue to move up (should have happened with us in 2017) and they are building for it. They're doing everything right.

https://goracers.com/news/2021/8/3/general-making-our-move-athletics-launches-facility-master-plan.aspx

[vuny98]

It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.

I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.

Some may say that giving an invite to school only because they are currently a high performer in basketball without taking into consideration all of the other aspects of how that school may or may not fit in with the rest of the conference would be stupid short-sighted and ridiculous. And to be clear, I'll be very happy if Murray gets the invite.

That argument would hold a lot more water if we were talking about a flavor of the month program like Oral Roberts or a Johnny Come Lately like Northern Kentucky but Murray State is a whole different animal. This isn't some program that is "Currently a high performer in men's basketball" this is a program that has performed to higher standards than even many within the MVC and has done so through multiple ADs and coaches (Newton Edgar Gottfired Anderson Cronin Prohm McMahon). They have AVERAGED 21.7 wins over a 34 year span since 1987-88. In that span they have 15 tournament appearances four tournament wins 5 NIT trips including an NIT Quarterfinal and a CIT Championship (as well as winning the now defunct Great Alaska Shootout in 2011). They are a program steeped in tradition. But by all means let's add Milwaukee or UIC or Arlington and pat ourselves on the back because the average USNWR ranking went up or we added an R1 institution. That's going to sell tickets at Arch Madness and put butts in the seats during games. Like it or not athletics makes money. If we as a league want to make money for our member institutions there is only one choice for #12. Additionally it's high time we threw the publics a bone. Every addition to this league since Tulsa's departure in 1994 has been a private school (Evansville Loyola Valpo Belmont). There was a time when they had to do that in order to keep schools like Bradley and Creighton in the fold and it's true that two of those were replacing departed private schools (Evansville replacing Tulsa and Loyola replacing Creighton) but the publics gave up their advantage in the conference when Wichita State left to accommodate the privates and bring us in to bring the count level. We upset the publics at our own peril. If we don't give them something it's very possible schools like Missouri State Illinois State and possibly Northern Iowa could explore other options which would leave us as a much worse overall conference. We upset the publics at our own peril as a conference and like it or not we need each other if we want to be the best conference we can be. It's time for the private schools to reciprocate and in this climate where at large bids are scarce it needs to be a basketball add. Being arrogant about academics now will cost us in the long run. To me there is only one choice.  Really I just hope we hear something soon Anything The silence is killing me. For a cautionary tale look no further than the OVC. Ten years ago they had a chance to further solidify themselves in both football and basketball after adding Belmont by adding Northern Kentucky and North Alabama. The conference refused for strange reasons and is now in the process of being dismantled. The MVC has much more tradition than the OVC ever did but it's not like the OVC has a nothing history. We could end up much worse off than we are now in the long run if we don't prioritize the sport that drives the bus in this league. Basketball needs to be first second and third. If Murray was constantly in APR hell like a lot of other OVC schools have been that would be one thing but they aren't. They aren't a powerhouse but it's not like they're a rock academy either. It's not like we're adding schools like Liberty or GCU with very dubious academic reputations. If we were I'd be much more receptive to the academic argument. Murray State isn't great academically but it's not as far off from the rest of the MVC as we like to believe and it certainly belongs in athletics and fills a hole in the footprint between Belmont and SIU\Evansville. They need to be the clear choice for #12. They are putting major money into facilities as well. They are long overdue to move up (should have happened with us in 2017) and they are building for it. They're doing everything right. https://goracers.com/news/2021/8/3/general-making-our-move-athletics-launches-facility-master-plan.aspx

I'm starting to get the impression that you really want Murray State to be in the conference.

They would be a fine choice from a basketball standpoint for sure. But there are several reasons why they might not make the most sense in the bigger picture. Not saying I agree with all of those reasons, but there are some valid reasons. How much do those reasons matter and will the fact that they are a premiere mid-major basketball school make up for the other areas. Those are the questions that the powers that be have to weigh. It would be a disservice to just say, good at basketball, forget everything else. That's all I am saying.

[VUGrad1314]

It really does sound like the Missouri Valley has rejected Murray State a second time. And that it has to do with their academic standing. I believe the MVC saw how it improved academically when Wichita State left and Valpo was added. I can guess that the Valley doesn't want the conference's academic reputation being brought much lower by one particular school again.

I hope that's not true because that is stupid short-sighted and ridiculous if that's the case. Again this is an athletics conference not a research convention. And Murray's academics aren't even that bad.

Some may say that giving an invite to school only because they are currently a high performer in basketball without taking into consideration all of the other aspects of how that school may or may not fit in with the rest of the conference would be stupid short-sighted and ridiculous. And to be clear, I'll be very happy if Murray gets the invite.

That argument would hold a lot more water if we were talking about a flavor of the month program like Oral Roberts or a Johnny Come Lately like Northern Kentucky but Murray State is a whole different animal. This isn't some program that is "Currently a high performer in men's basketball" this is a program that has performed to higher standards than even many within the MVC and has done so through multiple ADs and coaches (Newton Edgar Gottfired Anderson Cronin Prohm McMahon). They have AVERAGED 21.7 wins over a 34 year span since 1987-88. In that span they have 15 tournament appearances four tournament wins 5 NIT trips including an NIT Quarterfinal and a CIT Championship (as well as winning the now defunct Great Alaska Shootout in 2011). They are a program steeped in tradition. But by all means let's add Milwaukee or UIC or Arlington and pat ourselves on the back because the average USNWR ranking went up or we added an R1 institution. That's going to sell tickets at Arch Madness and put butts in the seats during games. Like it or not athletics makes money. If we as a league want to make money for our member institutions there is only one choice for #12. Additionally it's high time we threw the publics a bone. Every addition to this league since Tulsa's departure in 1994 has been a private school (Evansville Loyola Valpo Belmont). There was a time when they had to do that in order to keep schools like Bradley and Creighton in the fold and it's true that two of those were replacing departed private schools (Evansville replacing Tulsa and Loyola replacing Creighton) but the publics gave up their advantage in the conference when Wichita State left to accommodate the privates and bring us in to bring the count level. We upset the publics at our own peril. If we don't give them something it's very possible schools like Missouri State Illinois State and possibly Northern Iowa could explore other options which would leave us as a much worse overall conference. We upset the publics at our own peril as a conference and like it or not we need each other if we want to be the best conference we can be. It's time for the private schools to reciprocate and in this climate where at large bids are scarce it needs to be a basketball add. Being arrogant about academics now will cost us in the long run. To me there is only one choice.  Really I just hope we hear something soon Anything The silence is killing me. For a cautionary tale look no further than the OVC. Ten years ago they had a chance to further solidify themselves in both football and basketball after adding Belmont by adding Northern Kentucky and North Alabama. The conference refused for strange reasons and is now in the process of being dismantled. The MVC has much more tradition than the OVC ever did but it's not like the OVC has a nothing history. We could end up much worse off than we are now in the long run if we don't prioritize the sport that drives the bus in this league. Basketball needs to be first second and third. If Murray was constantly in APR hell like a lot of other OVC schools have been that would be one thing but they aren't. They aren't a powerhouse but it's not like they're a rock academy either. It's not like we're adding schools like Liberty or GCU with very dubious academic reputations. If we were I'd be much more receptive to the academic argument. Murray State isn't great academically but it's not as far off from the rest of the MVC as we like to believe and it certainly belongs in athletics and fills a hole in the footprint between Belmont and SIU\Evansville. They need to be the clear choice for #12. They are putting major money into facilities as well. They are long overdue to move up (should have happened with us in 2017) and they are building for it. They're doing everything right. https://goracers.com/news/2021/8/3/general-making-our-move-athletics-launches-facility-master-plan.aspx

I'm starting to get the impression that you really want Murray State to be in the conference. They would be a fine choice from a basketball standpoint for sure. But there are several reasons why they might not make the most sense in the bigger picture. Not saying I agree with all of those reasons, but there are some valid reasons. How much do those reasons matter and will the fact that they are a premiere mid-major basketball school make up for the other areas. Those are the questions that the powers that be have to weigh. It would be a disservice to just say, good at basketball, forget everything else. That's all I am saying.

Oh I do. I've wanted it since we were both being considered for the MVC. That was the time to stay at 11 for awhile before a suitable 12 emerged in Belmont). The reverse is true as well. Saying "Yeah they suck at basketball but ooh shiny academic ratings" is also a major disservice to the conference. Adding dead weight programs hurts our chances at at large bids which can cost the conference a lot of money and prestige. I'm not saying that's your position and I don't necessarily think academics don't matter (as much as my statements may reflect the contrary position) I'm just saying that it's not like Murray State is a huge drag on the academic reputation of the conference. They're no UIC or Milwaukee but they're not a JuCo\CC either. They're fine. They're not going to negatively impact the academic reputation of the MVC. But they check too many boxes in athletics to ignore. That's where they absolutely do move the needle. Ultimately that's what I think should carry the day here. Of course being in conferences together helps with research collaboration and stuff but it's not like MVC institutions can't collaborate with these regional academic heavyweights without being in a conference together if they need to do so (this is especially true for Valpo as we have a previous relationship with those schools). Admittedly though I'm not a president I'm  a fan. The games and the athletics are what I care about because they allow me to stay connected to my university so that's what I prioritize. I get that our priorities are different but I also think that treating Murray State like some kind of academic pariah is unnecessary and arrogant when they can bring so much to the conference in an important area. Like I said whether academics want to acknowledge it or not athletics are important because athletics make money especially for schools like ours in conferences like ours where grabbing those last few bids in the tournament and winning games can make such a meaningful difference for the university as a whole.

[valpo tundra]

VUGrad1314 - Your devotion to Murray State is only matched by your disdain for commas.  (I always appreciate your passion and insight.)  As you sometimes acknowledge, your case is built exclusively on Men's Basketball.  There are so many factors to include with that obviously being a major one.  Just for fun, let's include a school that you have never mentioned but several national writers have included as an MVC possibility; the University of Denver.  On the plus side: DU has won the Directors Cup for 11 out of the last 12 years for non football schools and are most recently 41st of all sports programs in the country.  Stanford usually dominates the Cup for all programs, with Michigan winning last year. Pepperdine is the only program that comes close to DU with football out of the equation. They have a 96% graduation rate and over 3.5 GPA for the entire sports department. Their facilities are top notch and relatively new, the oldest being just over 20 years old. Their athletic budget is $35 million per year and their endowment is $775 million.  The school's enrollment has been stable/growing. DU is in a top 20 metropolitan area with 3 million people. They have a TV relationship that has a national reach. Academically, they are ranked higher than any MVC school. They have a beautiful brand new 750 acre Rocky Mountain Campus to complement their main city campus in Denver. This new campus was 100% paid for by private donors which means they can rally the troops around a focused mission. They are not particularly happy with the Summit League and are free to go wherever they are wanted because they tend to dominate Olympic sports in other athletic conferences.  On the negative side: DU is way out of the footprint for the MVC and too far for my liking, but this hasn't stopped people suggesting places like UT Arlington, UA Little Rock, Oral (B) Roberts, South Dakota State, etc... They are known to be exploring the West Coast Conference now that BYU is leaving and might be a better fit there.  And finally, the biggest non-starter for you personally, I'm sure, is that their Men's Basketball program is currently very poor. One could imagine, however, with a switch to a basketball centric conference they would have the institutional will and money to rise to the occasion. My Pioneers over Racers suggestion is only meant to balance your incorrigible support of Murray State for many years. Keep up your unwavering support for The MVC and Valpo!                                                                                                                 

[may know]

Jeff Jackson stated he was given a public/private directive. Keep in mind Denver's athletic budget isn't what it looks like as they spend a lot of money on Lax and especially hockey (their #1 sport).

I think Murray's delayed until the football situation is settled and an announcement comes sometime this month. It's been 5 days and no one's denied anything. Matt Brown hasn't rejected the report anywhere, and he usually does when something is bull-hooey.

[wh]

Murray State was runner up to Valpo 5 years ago. Their APR is basically unchanged since. They would still seem to be the obvious choice from a basketball and geographic standpoint. So, if they were to get passed over again, there must have been a new determinant that they failed to meet. Media market is the most obvious, but there could be others. I think it's safe to say that if another school gets the nod, we'll never be told why Murray didn't, nor should we.

[VUGrad1314]

Look, Denver Arlington and Milwaukee would check every box if their programs weren't horrendous. If they were good I would be pounding the table just as hard for them for all the advantages they bring. But I just don't feel comfortable making a bet on a big market program with no tradition in basketball. (Milwaukee would be an exception here but their fan support has cratered so badly and I don't see a ton of institutional commitment to athletic success there these days). We went to the bad team in a big market well with Loyola and it worked out beautifully because Loyola had tradition and resources and committed to being great. That's just not a formula I feel comfortable following too many times. They won't all be Loyolas. Eventually we'll get stuck with a program that is a huge drag on the conference. With at large bids extremely hard to come by and given the position of strength the MVC presently enjoys I want proven products that show strong potential to contribute towards that goal. Remember how mad we were when we lost out to Loyola because they sucked back then and we didn't? (not saying we suck now but we haven't been great since joining the MVC). Murray State could (and probably will initially) struggle in the MVC like Loyola did and like we have but they unquestionably have the institutional commitment and the will to be great and we need that in any conference member. Their plans going forward with facilities are nothing short of impressive.

There's a big cautionary tale here too. Consider Conference USA. After being raided when the AAC was created their commissioner got the bright idea to add a bunch of programs in big markets with no tradition in football. Now their league sucks and everyone wants to leave even for the Sun Belt which focused on getting properties that could win like Appalachian State. We want to focus on bringing in teams that win in the sport that matters most to us (basketball). Otherwise we might end up like Conference USA is now. I really believe if the private schools dig in their heels on this any public school that can is going to seriously explore going FBS. If however we focus solely on making the conference better it may well become too good for them to leave. As strange as it sounds Murray State may well be the safest play to ensure the long-term stability of the conference which is what we should all want because the it's working pretty well for everyone right now if I should say so myself. 

[wh]

Look, Denver Arlington and Milwaukee would check every box if their programs weren't horrendous. If they were good I would be pounding the table just as hard for them for all the advantages they bring. But I just don't feel comfortable making a bet on a big market program with no tradition in basketball. (Milwaukee would be an exception here but their fan support has cratered so badly and I don't see a ton of institutional commitment to athletic success there these days). We went to the bad team in a big market well with Loyola and it worked out beautifully because Loyola had tradition and resources and committed to being great. That's just not a formula I feel comfortable following too many times. They won't all be Loyolas. Eventually we'll get stuck with a program that is a huge drag on the conference. With at large bids extremely hard to come by and given the position of strength the MVC presently enjoys I want proven products that show strong potential to contribute towards that goal. Remember how mad we were when we lost out to Loyola because they sucked back then and we didn't? (not saying we suck now but we haven't been great since joining the MVC). Murray State could (and probably will initially) struggle in the MVC like Loyola did and like we have but they unquestionably have the institutional commitment and the will to be great and we need that in any conference member. Their plans going forward with facilities are nothing short of impressive.

There's a big cautionary tale here too. Consider Conference USA. After being raided when the AAC was created their commissioner got the bright idea to add a bunch of programs in big markets with no tradition in football. Now their league sucks and everyone wants to leave even for the Sun Belt which focused on getting properties that could win like Appalachian State. We want to focus on bringing in teams that win in the sport that matters most to us (basketball). Otherwise we might end up like Conference USA is now. I really believe if the private schools dig in their heels on this any public school that can is going to seriously explore going FBS. If however we focus solely on making the conference better it may well become too good for them to leave. As strange as it sounds Murray State may well be the safest play to ensure the long-term stability of the conference which is what we should all want because the it's working pretty well for everyone right now if I should say so myself. 

Your comment is typical of a lot of overhype out there in Valley land about Loyola. Yes, they've done amazing things over the last 4 years. The question is can they sustain this level of performance going forward? Before you lecture me about facilities, commitment, momentum, and other subjective, nebulous descriptors, let's look at the facts:

- Short of going back to the dark ages of college basketball, the only "tradition" Loyola brought with them was that of a perrineal doormat. Go back 20 years and tell me what you see (don't waste your time, I already have). They were consistently terrible in an inferior mid major league. Losing records, terrible RPI's, conference bottomfeeders. Suddenly 4 years ago that all changed. Why, do you suppose?
- Have you taken time to look at Porter Moser's coaching record year by year, (don't waste your time, I already have). Before the last 4 years, his teams had 10 consecutive seasons with losing conference records, as head coach of 2 MVC programs. The same pep talker, the same media smoozer, the same motivator, the same coaching tedchniques, the same defensive-mindedness, etc., yet a complete failure as a coach - until mysteriously 4 years ago. Why, do you suppose?
- I'll even throw in Sister Jean. The same prayers for Moser's teams that fell on deaf ears for years were suddenly answered in an incredible way. Did she finally figure out how to connect to God, or might there be another explanation?

So, the question becomes: what's the one and only one common denominator to Loyola's sudden rise to glory, from rags to riches, from the outhouse to the penthouse? Might it be one of the most uniquely talented basketball players (with emphasis on uniquely) in recent NCAA history - namely Carmen Krutwig? Would that be fairly possible? And, if you allow yourself to consider this as a real possibility, might it be reasonable to think that without Krutwig (and Moser, if you think he suddenly became a coaching genius), might it make sense that Loyola is going to fall from its pedestal (statistical trend analysis practically guarantees it)? I think the far more likely scenario is that they caught lightening in a bottle that is now in their rear view mirror. In fact, I would almost guarantee it, if not for one thing - they have a new coach who for all anyone knows could be a star in the making.

[vok22]

Look, Denver Arlington and Milwaukee would check every box if their programs weren't horrendous. If they were good I would be pounding the table just as hard for them for all the advantages they bring. But I just don't feel comfortable making a bet on a big market program with no tradition in basketball. (Milwaukee would be an exception here but their fan support has cratered so badly and I don't see a ton of institutional commitment to athletic success there these days). We went to the bad team in a big market well with Loyola and it worked out beautifully because Loyola had tradition and resources and committed to being great. That's just not a formula I feel comfortable following too many times. They won't all be Loyolas. Eventually we'll get stuck with a program that is a huge drag on the conference. With at large bids extremely hard to come by and given the position of strength the MVC presently enjoys I want proven products that show strong potential to contribute towards that goal. Remember how mad we were when we lost out to Loyola because they sucked back then and we didn't? (not saying we suck now but we haven't been great since joining the MVC). Murray State could (and probably will initially) struggle in the MVC like Loyola did and like we have but they unquestionably have the institutional commitment and the will to be great and we need that in any conference member. Their plans going forward with facilities are nothing short of impressive.

There's a big cautionary tale here too. Consider Conference USA. After being raided when the AAC was created their commissioner got the bright idea to add a bunch of programs in big markets with no tradition in football. Now their league sucks and everyone wants to leave even for the Sun Belt which focused on getting properties that could win like Appalachian State. We want to focus on bringing in teams that win in the sport that matters most to us (basketball). Otherwise we might end up like Conference USA is now. I really believe if the private schools dig in their heels on this any public school that can is going to seriously explore going FBS. If however we focus solely on making the conference better it may well become too good for them to leave. As strange as it sounds Murray State may well be the safest play to ensure the long-term stability of the conference which is what we should all want because the it's working pretty well for everyone right now if I should say so myself. 

Your comment is typical of a lot of overhype out there in Valley land about Loyola. Yes, they've done amazing things over the last 4 years. The question is can they sustain this level of performance going forward? Before you lecture me about facilities, commitment, momentum, and other subjective, nebulous descriptors, let's look at the facts:

- Short of going back to the dark ages of college basketball, the only "tradition" Loyola brought with them was that of a perrineal doormat. Go back 20 years and tell me what you see (don't waste your time, I already have). They were consistently terrible in an inferior mid major league. Losing records, terrible RPI's, conference bottomfeeders. Suddenly 4 years ago that all changed. Why, do you suppose?
- Have you taken time to look at Porter Moser's coaching record year by year, (don't waste your time, I already have). Before the last 4 years, his teams had 10 consecutive seasons with losing conference records, coaching 2 MVC programs. The same pep talker, the same media smoozer, the same motivator, the same coaching tedchniques, the same defensive-mindedness, etc., yet a complete failure as a coach - until mysteriously 4 years ago. Why, do you suppose?
- I'll even throw in Sister Jean. The same prayers for Moser's teams that fell on deaf ears for years were suddenly answered in an incredible way. Did she suddenly figure out how to connect to God, or might there be another explanation?

So, the question becomes what's the one and only one common denominator to Loyola's sudden rise to glory, from rags to riches, from the outhouse to the penthouse? Might it be one of the most uniquely talented basketball players (with emphasis on uniquely) in recent NCAA history - namely Carmen Krutwig? Would that be fairly possible? And, if you allow yourself to consider this as a real possibility, might it be reasonable to think that without Krutwig (and Moser, if you think he suddenly became a coaching genius), might it make sense that Loyola is going to fall from its pedestal (statistical trend analysis practically guarantees it)? I think the far more likely scenario is that they caught lightening in a bottle that is now in their rear view mirror. In fact, I would almost guarantee it, if not for one thing - they have a new coach who for all anyone knows could be a star in the making.

I certainly don't think they will sustain the same level of success, but I also highly doubt they will return to the place they were beforehand. They have used this "lightning in a bottle" success to attract talents at a much high level than they were before. They still have 2 of the best defensive players in college basketball on their team. They have a lot of good young talent that have taken notes from their more successful upperclassmen and krutwig himself. Success breeds success. They have changed the culture in the program. 

[wh]

Look, Denver Arlington and Milwaukee would check every box if their programs weren't horrendous. If they were good I would be pounding the table just as hard for them for all the advantages they bring. But I just don't feel comfortable making a bet on a big market program with no tradition in basketball. (Milwaukee would be an exception here but their fan support has cratered so badly and I don't see a ton of institutional commitment to athletic success there these days). We went to the bad team in a big market well with Loyola and it worked out beautifully because Loyola had tradition and resources and committed to being great. That's just not a formula I feel comfortable following too many times. They won't all be Loyolas. Eventually we'll get stuck with a program that is a huge drag on the conference. With at large bids extremely hard to come by and given the position of strength the MVC presently enjoys I want proven products that show strong potential to contribute towards that goal. Remember how mad we were when we lost out to Loyola because they sucked back then and we didn't? (not saying we suck now but we haven't been great since joining the MVC). Murray State could (and probably will initially) struggle in the MVC like Loyola did and like we have but they unquestionably have the institutional commitment and the will to be great and we need that in any conference member. Their plans going forward with facilities are nothing short of impressive.

There's a big cautionary tale here too. Consider Conference USA. After being raided when the AAC was created their commissioner got the bright idea to add a bunch of programs in big markets with no tradition in football. Now their league sucks and everyone wants to leave even for the Sun Belt which focused on getting properties that could win like Appalachian State. We want to focus on bringing in teams that win in the sport that matters most to us (basketball). Otherwise we might end up like Conference USA is now. I really believe if the private schools dig in their heels on this any public school that can is going to seriously explore going FBS. If however we focus solely on making the conference better it may well become too good for them to leave. As strange as it sounds Murray State may well be the safest play to ensure the long-term stability of the conference which is what we should all want because the it's working pretty well for everyone right now if I should say so myself. 

Your comment is typical of a lot of overhype out there in Valley land about Loyola. Yes, they've done amazing things over the last 4 years. The question is can they sustain this level of performance going forward? Before you lecture me about facilities, commitment, momentum, and other subjective, nebulous descriptors, let's look at the facts:

- Short of going back to the dark ages of college basketball, the only "tradition" Loyola brought with them was that of a perrineal doormat. Go back 20 years and tell me what you see (don't waste your time, I already have). They were consistently terrible in an inferior mid major league. Losing records, terrible RPI's, conference bottomfeeders. Suddenly 4 years ago that all changed. Why, do you suppose?
- Have you taken time to look at Porter Moser's coaching record year by year, (don't waste your time, I already have). Before the last 4 years, his teams had 10 consecutive seasons with losing conference records, coaching 2 MVC programs. The same pep talker, the same media smoozer, the same motivator, the same coaching tedchniques, the same defensive-mindedness, etc., yet a complete failure as a coach - until mysteriously 4 years ago. Why, do you suppose?
- I'll even throw in Sister Jean. The same prayers for Moser's teams that fell on deaf ears for years were suddenly answered in an incredible way. Did she suddenly figure out how to connect to God, or might there be another explanation?

So, the question becomes what's the one and only one common denominator to Loyola's sudden rise to glory, from rags to riches, from the outhouse to the penthouse? Might it be one of the most uniquely talented basketball players (with emphasis on uniquely) in recent NCAA history - namely Carmen Krutwig? Would that be fairly possible? And, if you allow yourself to consider this as a real possibility, might it be reasonable to think that without Krutwig (and Moser, if you think he suddenly became a coaching genius), might it make sense that Loyola is going to fall from its pedestal (statistical trend analysis practically guarantees it)? I think the far more likely scenario is that they caught lightening in a bottle that is now in their rear view mirror. In fact, I would almost guarantee it, if not for one thing - they have a new coach who for all anyone knows could be a star in the making.

I certainly don't think they will sustain the same level of success, but I also highly doubt they will return to the place they were beforehand. They have used this "lightning in a bottle" success to attract talents at a much high level than they were before. They still have 2 of the best defensive players in college basketball on their team. They have a lot of good young talent that have taken notes from their more successful upperclassmen and krutwig himself. Success breeds success. They have changed the culture in the program. 

IMO that's a highly optimistic view, given the facts, but certainly one shared by probably 99 out of 100 MVC fans. It will be interesting to see where Loyola men's basketball is 4 years from now with a new coach and a new cycle of players. Speaking of which, it will be interesting to see where Oklahoma men's basketball is 4 years from now.

[may know]

The facts are Loyola's facilities, budget, donations, and level of recruits are significantly higher than they were in the 2000s. None of that is "subjective descriptors" (except maybe recruiting rankings).