HL Superconference

[HorizonLeagueFan]

The article just said Southern Illinois".  In the basketball world Southern Illinois means the school in the Missouri Valley.  What it means in their neighborhood is an entirely different matter.   

That's not true.  The article itself says Southern Illinois from the OVC and the table at the bottom of the article says Southern Illinois-Edwardsville.   You guys just made the assumption that he was talking about the MVC school.  It is pretty obvious he wasn't since he said Southern Illinois from the OVC.

[blackpantheruwm]

Can we get back to the actual conversation? No Southern Illinois, Edwardsville or Carbondale, is going to be joining the Horizon League. So let's move on.

[crusaderjoe]

From the article:

The Horizon League wants to work with like-minded conferences in the Midwest in terms of scheduling agreements, television deals and digital and social media.

"There are non-BCS conferences that have a lot to offer," Grant said. "If you pool your things together, it makes you more marketable. It makes perfect sense."

***
Has the HL sent gift baskets yet to the MWC and CUSA for this idea?  Who would be the like-minded, Midwestern, non-football conference that the HL would prefer to work with?  Hmm, I wonder.

Mi scusi, Missouri Valley?  You have a call from the Horizon League on line #2.

[VULB#62]

Being from outside the geographic area of the HL, I'm curious why Western Illinois hasn't been more a part of the conversation.  They seem to be in the thick of Summit standings in the team sports and were a game shy of a 20 win MBB season.  They play baseball.  Their scholarship FCS FB program would be untouched -- they're in The MVFC. And they fit the HL geographic footprint.  Is there a history here that I don't know about (like some of the YSU snipes I've been reading)?

[oklahomamick]

combine the Missouri Valley with the HL to make a mega basketball conference.  Just fixed the problem...

[valpotx]

Most WIU sports are not good.  It was a rare year for their men's basketball team this past season.

[HorizonLeagueFan]

Being from outside the geographic area of the HL, I'm curious why Western Illinois hasn't been more a part of the conversation.  They seem to be in the thick of Summit standings in the team sports and were a game shy of a 20 win MBB season.  They play baseball.  Their scholarship FCS FB program would be untouched -- they're in The MVFC. And they fit the HL geographic footprint.  Is there a history here that I don't know about (like some of the YSU snipes I've been reading)?

If you read the article again the answers are already stated.  The HL wants to add a team in the basic footprint of the HL, has a baseball team, has a similar financial commitment to their sports and has "at large potential" in men's basketball.  The only think they have going for them is they are in the HL's footprint and they have a baseball team.  They don't spend anywhere near enough money on their basketball program to meet HL standards and they have shown no signs of being a team with at large potential.  They have never been to the post season.  They won 18 games last year but 4 of those wins were against non-D1 teams.  They were 14-14 last year vs D1 teams, 4-23 the year before, and 10-17 the year before that.  The HL is only going to add teams that can help elevate men's basketball.  Western Illinois doesn't have a chance.

[VULB#62]

Thanks guys.  Looks like FB (65 FCS scholarships) and men's soccer (Summit title in 2011) rule at WIU. Checked the other sports standings, both male and female, and confirmed that their level of competitiveness was lacking.  Appreciate the basketball focus in the HL and didn't know the about the underfunding at WIU.

[oklahomamick]

Let's don't forget that the soccer championship for Western came at the hands of an own goal and a suspect PK.....otherwise it was all ORU.  I work with the ORU soccer team.   

Again, its an easy fix.  Combine the private schools of the MVC, HL and A10.  mega b'ball conference that would be a 4 bid conference with great academics and large endowments.  easy fix. 

[crusaderjoe]

combine the Missouri Valley with the HL to make a mega basketball conference.  Just fixed the problem...

How do you define the term "combine"?  Merge?  Ok, then which conference dissolves?  Do they both dissolve and form anew via the combination?

I'm certainly no expert, but I don't know if a merger would really work for a non-football conference like the HL.  From a basketball standpoint, if a new conference is formed from a merger, that doesn't necessarily mean that both conferences will be able to carry over each automatic bid to the new conference.  So one bid is lost right there off the bat.  Plus, I believe there also may be issues concerning the allocation of NCAA tournament money.  I think a dissolving conference or a conference that merges into another and there by ceases to exist would lose those distributions.  I would imagine then that if the HL merges all of the work that was done by Butler tournamentwise would be for nothing.  I think these were some of the main issues why the CUSA and MWC rethought the merger idea.

There are others on this board who have a better handle on the pros and cons of a HL/MVC merger I am sure, but I think a good starting point would be to consider how such an action would effect tournament bids and tournament money.

[crusadermoe]

I really enjoy all of this speculation because it is a lot of fun.    But in "realville" it makes so much more sense to just replace Butler with Oakland and move on.    The others are all too big a reach in one way or another.     
Why solidify Youngstown by adding Robert Morris?    YSU is the one everyone would like to see drop out and soon.ght
You hate to pair Valpo with Wright State for travel but no other model makes sense.  The Kentucky ideas are just dumb.
Detroit will suffer eventually and be in jeopardy too.   It is located in a city that will declare bankruptcy this months . If either YSU and Deroit drop out, then think about new schools after more shakeout occurs.   

[dylanrocks]

I really enjoy all of this speculation because it is a lot of fun.    But in "realville" it makes so much more sense to just replace Butler with Oakland and move on.    The others are all too big a reach in one way or another.     
Why solidify Youngstown by adding Robert Morris?    YSU is the one everyone would like to see drop out and soon.ght
You hate to pair Valpo with Wright State for travel but no other model makes sense.  The Kentucky ideas are just dumb.
Detroit will suffer eventually and be in jeopardy too.   It is located in a city that will declare bankruptcy this months . If either YSU and Deroit drop out, then think about new schools after more shakeout occurs.

Wow. So, you like the idea of being a one-bid, low-major league with a handful of mid-major programs?

Where has this conference's historical tendency to be reactive rather than proactive gotten it?

Suddenly, it shows an inclination to strike preemptively and that's met with disdain? I just don't get it, folks.

[crusadermoe]

If you really want to get aggressive go after DePaul and Bradley.     At least you are consolidating and moving up a notch.  DePaul needs a winning season and could bring the second bid once it solidifies.

I do like Belmont and Nashville as a "get", but I don't think people would know  Robert Morris if he walked into the room.

[78crusader]

This thread is getting a bit old.  Look, nobody from the Mo Valley is going to jump ship to the HL.  I think the league will just add Oakland and that'll be it, although I would much prefer Belmont, a private, Christian school from Nashville that ranked #7 in the US News College Rankings last year.  Good academics, private school, good bball program.  This sounds like I'm a snob, but so be it: any school mentioned in this thread with a hyphen, the word "State", or directional reference in its name is not as well thought of as a private university, and in my view, adding such a school would be a step closer to the Summit League, which we don't want, and a step or two or three away from the A-10, which is a conference I think we would want to be more like. 

Paul

[HorizonLeagueFan]

This thread is getting a bit old.  Look, nobody from the Mo Valley is going to jump ship to the HL.  I think the league will just add Oakland and that'll be it, although I would much prefer Belmont, a private, Christian school from Nashville that ranked #7 in the US News College Rankings last year.  Good academics, private school, good bball program.  This sounds like I'm a snob, but so be it: any school mentioned in this thread with a hyphen, the word "State", or directional reference in its name is not as well thought of as a private university, and in my view, adding such a school would be a step closer to the Summit League, which we don't want, and a step or two or three away from the A-10, which is a conference I think we would want to be more like. 

Paul

The HL is looking to add 3 teams.  They are not going to stop at 1.  You cannot lose a team like Butler and only replace them with Oakland and not expect the conference to take a big drop in perception.  The HL wants to add 3 and they will try to announce them all at the same time to make a statement. 

[okinawatyphoon]

78, I concur with your thoughts about state vs private. I would love to add Belmont, DePaul, and Oakland personally.

[HorizonLeagueFan]

DePaul is never coming to the HL.  They make more money from their share of Big East tournament money and the Big East TV contract than all of the HL teams make combined. 

[78crusader]

The HL is looking to add 3 teams.  They are not going to stop at 1.  You cannot lose a team like Butler and only replace them with Oakland and not expect the conference to take a big drop in perception.  The HL wants to add 3 and they will try to announce them all at the same time to make a statement. 

I don't get this thinking at all.  By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler.  If -- and this is probably a lousy analogy but the best I can come up with at 8:17 am --the Yankees left the AL for the NL, the AL doesn't make up the difference simply by adding the Diamondbacks, Astros, and Padres.  They'd be better off by adding one strong team, like the Cardinals. 

If the HL is concerned about how any expansion would be perceived, then the HL runs the risk that simply adding three teams will be perceived as a commitment by the league to strength in numbers, rather than a commitment to a quality league.  I'd rather see Belmont than, say, a trio of Oakland, IUPUI, and SIU-E. 

Paul

[VULB#62]

Being from outside the geographic area of the HL, I'm curious why Western Illinois hasn't been more a part of the conversation.  They seem to be in the thick of Summit standings in the team sports and were a game shy of a 20 win MBB season.  They play baseball.  Their scholarship FCS FB program would be untouched -- they're in The MVFC. And they fit the HL geographic footprint.  Is there a history here that I don't know about (like some of the YSU snipes I've been reading)?

If you read the article again the answers are already stated.  The HL wants to add a team in the basic footprint of the HL, has a baseball team, has a similar financial commitment to their sports and has "at large potential" in men's basketball.  The only think they have going for them is they are in the HL's footprint and they have a baseball team.  They don't spend anywhere near enough money on their basketball program to meet HL standards and they have shown no signs of being a team with at large potential.  They have never been to the post season.  They won 18 games last year but 4 of those wins were against non-D1 teams.  They were 14-14 last year vs D1 teams, 4-23 the year before, and 10-17 the year before that.  The HL is only going to add teams that can help elevate men's basketball.  Western Illinois doesn't have a chance.

I was reminded by HorizonLeagueFan earlier when I asked about WIU that there are certain prerequisites to expansion among them are "at large potential and $$ dedicated."  I'm thinking he has more information than he is releasing when he firmly states three.

[dylanrocks]

The HL is looking to add 3 teams.  They are not going to stop at 1.  You cannot lose a team like Butler and only replace them with Oakland and not expect the conference to take a big drop in perception.  The HL wants to add 3 and they will try to announce them all at the same time to make a statement. 

I don't get this thinking at all.  By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler.  If -- and this is probably a lousy analogy but the best I can come up with at 8:17 am --the Yankees left the AL for the NL, the AL doesn't make up the difference simply by adding the Diamondbacks, Astros, and Padres.  They'd be better off by adding one strong team, like the Cardinals. 

If the HL is concerned about how any expansion would be perceived, then the HL runs the risk that simply adding three teams will be perceived as a commitment by the league to strength in numbers, rather than a commitment to a quality league.  I'd rather see Belmont than, say, a trio of Oakland, IUPUI, and SIU-E. 

Paul

It's really a pity that some of these names surfaced in the DDN article, schools like IUPUI, IPFW and SIUE. If in fact these programs are being seriously considered by the H League, it's an epic fail by the commissioner's office.

On the Wright State board and in the DDN article, there are mentions of how the league will expressly better itself by adding schools that have historically placed themselves in at-large contention and won games in the NCAA tournament.

That's clearly not true of the schools you mentioned. Adding schools merely to expand the league isn't remotely the intention here; preventing the league from lapsing into total irrelevancy is.

Much like Belmont and Robert Morris would be positive additions, Murray State would make the league better, state school or not.

[vu72]

Murray State has a fine academic reputation:  http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/murray-state-1977

Their #25 ranking in the south region compares favorably to Detroit's #23 ranking in the midwest.

Belmont ranks #7 in the south which compares favorably to Valpo's #4 in the midwest.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/belmont-3479

Meanwhile, Robert Morris ranks #82 in the north region!      http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/robert-morris-university-3359

I really think the administrators and presidents will consider academic reputation highly.  Obviously we want good basketball schools but finding one with both will be important.  No more YSUs!

[VULB#62]

Why is Belmont even being discussed?  Here is the link to the Belmont announcement of their move this summer to the OVC.

http://forum.belmont.edu/news/2011/05/13/belmont-university-to-join-ohio-valley-conference/

Why would they undo that       BB RPI is probably not the driver as they dropped DOWN a bit (actually 1 conference ranking position - from 20th [RPI .4789] in Atlantic Sun to 21st [RPI .4781] per CBS Sports site) to go the OVC.  The writeup talks more about geographical values and, even though they don't play football, the added exposure FSC football programs bring. Between Belmont (the only private college in the conference) and Murray State that conference now is in a position (automatic + at Large) that the HL aspires to without Butler.

This quote from the May 2011 article suggests they were recruited to the OVC to raise the OVC RPI:  "Belmont University, which expects to enroll more than 6,000 students in the fall of 2011, has won 30 conference championships and made nine NCAA Tournament appearances since joining the Atlantic Sun Conference in 2001-02. Belmont men's basketball has risen to national prominence, with eight conference championships, six postseason appearances and four NCAA Tournament automatic berths since 2004. This past season, the Bruins finished with a 30-5 record [27-8 last season], earned national poll votes for nine consecutive weeks, and received a No. 13 seed in the 2011 NCAA Men's Basketball Championships."

Also found an article about travel costs:  "School President Bob Fisher said the transition from one league to another normally would be done over two years. But he said that Belmont will buy out the remaining year for $200,000. He also noted that the school will save more than that in travel costs by switching to the OVC."

Gotta look elsewhere I'm afraid.

[setshot]

Valpo and St. Joe to the North Coast Conference. With DePauw and Wabash already members of the NCC,IN. would have four of the 12 schools,the rest being in Ohio. Compact travel, multiple bids to the dance (3 last year),good academics,similar enrollment size,all private schools - why not?

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I don't get this thinking at all.  By adding three teams the HL won't necessarily make up for the loss of Butler.

This is a great point.  While we're not talking a huge amount of revenue, like with the B1G, for example, we're still talking some revenue, and replacing one with three just means less for everyone.

Let's say the three teams manage between them to bring in whatever Butler did (and tourney-speaking, that would be hard for a couple years)....

Then if revenue is (totally spitballing) 60 million, then during Butler, everybody gets 6 mil, whereas post-Butler, each gets 5--17% less.  1 mil is quite the chunk of change at our level!

And if revenue is less, then the percentage hit is even greater!  Let's increase the numerator before we increase the denominator.

[vu72]

Valpo and St. Joe to the North Coast Conference. With DePauw and Wabash already members of the NCC,IN. would have four of the 12 schools,the rest being in Ohio. Compact travel, multiple bids to the dance (3 last year),good academics,similar enrollment size,all private schools - why not?

Because it's bush league.  And the "dance" is more like a sock hop!

Seriously, and I know I shouldn't waste my time, but I will.  Valpo draws athletes from all over the country and internationally.  Right now 27 states and 13 foriegn countries are represented just on Valpo athletic teams. Coupled with the national nature of our scheduling brings exposure to Valpo all over the place.  Playing DePauw and others would bring exposure to Indiana and Ohio.

Exposure gained via national tv games in multiple sports brings in more applications which drops the acceptance rate and makes Valpo more "selective" and will more than likely help meet the overall recruitment goals.  National name recognition adds to the value of a degree and is best for the graduate.

Finally, take a look at the Depauw website and go to the men's basketball section.  Now look at the box score for the big Depauw-Wabash game at Depauw.  Big conference rival and all.  Attendance?  350.  Wow!  That will sure help the alumni to get excited. Think of it this way setshot, if Valpo played D3 there wouldn't be a FanZone site. Who would you pester then?  Do you bother the people on the Johns Hopkins site?  Oh wait, they don't have one!   

There, I just wasted ten minutes I can't get back.