HL Superconference

[blackpantheruwm]

If anyone wants to work on the spreadsheet that VULB started, just click on this link and edit it. I've set it up under my Google account so that anyone with the link can edit it:

Link: Prospective Horizon League members

[Valpo2010]

they don't bring much replacement value for Butler.  But, the Bradley brand does.

Maybe I'm just not very familiar with Bradley, but I just can't agree with this statement. 

[blackpantheruwm]

they don't bring much replacement value for Butler.  But, the Bradley brand does.

Maybe I'm just not very familiar with Bradley, but I just can't agree with this statement. 

Those aged 45 and up will remember Bradley's NIT title. Some younger fans will remember Hersey Hawkins (one of my personal favorites).

I remember Bradley from our Bracketbuster with them in 08. Never have I felt like I was at a "big time" event than that night. I mean, of course, at the mid-major level - I've been to many Badger games (I don't enjoy them anymore).  But the atmosphere leading up to the game in Peoria was the closest I've felt to a Big Ten atmosphere without actually going to one...more than Northwestern for sure.

[VULB#62]

Panther, I am in the age group you mentioned, so I do remember the good old days for Bradley (vaguely).  Bradley would bring credibility as a former MVC member while Oakland would be coming from the Summit with not nearly the pedigree as Valpo had when it made its jump.  In addition to a greater presence in Chicago, maybe Bradley would see this as a way to get back to those good old days(?) and a easier way to get to the dance more consistently.

This is from the Bradley website:

>> Bradley ranks 25th nationally with 1,553 all-time victories
>> 34 postseason tournament appearances are the most in the Missouri Valley Conference
>> Two NCAA Tournament championship games, four "Sweet 16" appearances (including 2006) and four NIT titles
>> 22 final Top 20 national rankings, including 24th in the final 2005-06 ESPN/USA Today Poll

Recent MBB Records:
11-12  W 7   L 25
10-11  W 12  L 20
09-10  W 17  L 15
08-09  W 22  L 15 (Made 4th round of CIT)

[dylanrocks]

Expand by 3?

Oakland, Murray State and Robert Morris (assuming nothing happens to YSU).

Expand by 5?

George Mason, Belmont, Oakland, Murray State and Robert Morris (assuming nothing happens to YSU).

Face it: the "geographic footprints" of athletic associations across the country are expanding.

[setshot]

Paul Unruh and Gene Melchiorre were  the hot shots for Bradley back in the early 50's. Nat Holman and CCNY gave the Braves fits during that period. Ditto Rupp's KU wildcats.  Nevertheless, Bradley was a household name  as was the Loyola- Chicago team. As an easterner I was a CCNY booster. Then,the scandals hit. Goodbye to CCNY,NYU and LIU basketball. They never recovered. So,here's to Bradley. They would be a great fit for the HL. 

[VULB#62]

Bradley would give the HL a 'name' school.  Right now, sans Butler, the HL has no marquee value and will never rise to an at-large bid situation if it adds low profile schools that don't meet the 9 points reflective of LeCrone's statement.  Despite having a down-turn in the last few years Bradley would be an awesome get. Can't help but think that Bradley will never come about as the prestige of being a member of the 8th best conference in the country (even though they were in the conference basement last year) is too much to overcome.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Simply because some college athletic associations are in fact expanding geographically does not in fact imply that we must as well.


Perhaps if the country were expanding, or the world--that might in fact imply that the Horizon should--though even then it wouldn't necessarily follow.


Since that's not the case, though, regardless of whether DC or the UP get statehood, the fact remains that only travel agents--not softball players, not track athletes, etc.--are the ones in favor of far-flung ridiculosities like the Big East or A-10.


Now--if we were talking a MBB-only conference?  Well, then that's a different story.  But the fact remains that a big reason VU went to the Horizon was geographical, not just respect-based.

[FWalum]

Bradley is not going anywhere so why is this garnering so much speculation?  It would be much more likely that the University of Evansville would move to the HL and that probability is about 0.5%. If this thread is turning into a wish list then maybe we ought to be discussing the possibility of some low level ACC team coming to the HL.   

[Valpo2010]

Bradley would give the HL a 'name' school.

I guess this is where we disagree...maybe it's cause I'm in my mid 20's and wasn't around when Bradley was a stronger program, but I in no way view Bradley as a big (or even mediocre) 'name' program.

[VULB#62]

The previous few posts underscore what I was driving at by bringing Bradley into the conversation and then finally concluding there is no reason for them to come over.  IMO There just ain't any schools out there that fit the geographic footprint (a very big attribute consideration as pointed out below) and can either maintain the brand at pre-Butler levels or add to the HL brand/RPI if the HL insists on being an individual conference going forward. So, maybe it comes back to something like Panther's idea:  a MVC/HL merger into an expanded MVC superconference with east/west divisions. Markets covered: Milwaukee, Chicago, Detriot, Omaha, St. Louis, Cleveland, Dayton.  But that's 19 schools.  18 would set up two 9 team divisions.  MBB schedules would have 16 H&H inside the division and (6-8?) games against opposite division schools and (6-8?) games non-conference.  Might look like this (or not).

EAST
Wright
CSU
Detroit
VU
Indiana State
Evansville
Illinois SU
NIU
Bradley

WEST
UWGB
UWM
Loyola
UIC
Northern Iowa
Creighton
Drake
MO State
SIU

[valpotx]

Bradley would give the HL a 'name' school.

I guess this is where we disagree...maybe it's cause I'm in my mid 20's and wasn't around when Bradley was a stronger program, but I in no way view Bradley as a big (or even mediocre) 'name' program.

Though I knew about Bradley's history through my own liking of athletics history, I would agree with Valpo2010, and I am 30.  Bradley doesn't have anywhere near the name recognition it did in sports decades ago, though still a good academic school.  Anyone my age or younger probably has no idea about their programs, other than the one big guy they had a few years ago that fizzled out in the NBA.   I even had to Google his name, Patrick O'Bryant.

I do get your overall point though VULB, that we should go after programs that have done something in their history and are in our footprint.

[vu72]

Bradley would give the HL a 'name' school.

I guess this is where we disagree...maybe it's cause I'm in my mid 20's and wasn't around when Bradley was a stronger program, but I in no way view Bradley as a big (or even mediocre) 'name' program.

Though I knew about Bradley's history through my own liking of athletics history, I would agree with Valpo2010, and I am 30.  Bradley doesn't have anywhere near the name recognition it did in sports decades ago, though still a good academic school.  Anyone my age or younger probably has no idea about their programs, other than the one big guy they had a few years ago that fizzled out in the NBA.   I even had to Google his name, Patrick O'Bryant.

I do get your overall point though VULB, that we should go after programs that have done something in their history and are in our footprint.

[/b]

If history is a necessity then Evansville should certainly be in the picture.  We have a much deeper history with the Purple Aces than we do with Bradley. We have played Bradley a total of 3 times in our history while we have played Evansville 82 times, going back to 1931.  They were in our conference (The ICC) and generally were the team to beat.  They have a long NCAA history with players like Jerry Sloan, for example. They have won five National D2 Championships and have five D1 tourney appearances as well.

Evansville would be our natural travel partner.  I doubt it could happen but if we are dreaming Evansville would be a better fit than Bradley.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Evansville would be our natural travel partner.  I doubt it could happen but if we are dreaming Evansville would be a better fit than Bradley.

I agree, historically speaking, and I agree that all the good travel partners would be taken, but the simple fact is, if Oakland joins, six different schools would be closer than Evansville (the two Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois schools).  Heck, Wright State and Bradley itself would be more convenient travel partners...

[VULB#62]

Ah, the good old ICC days.  Watching Jerry Sloan and Larry Humes (?) in the old Brown Gym was quite a treat. Yes, Evansville would be a good addition too.

Here's my worry.  Looking at the poll as it progresses and watching the realistic suggestions in the various posts, I am concerned that the future HL might actually become more of a Mid-Con 2.0 (quality-wise - not geographically) rather than what we all hope for, an improved HL 2.0.

[covufan]

Evansville would be our natural travel partner.  I doubt it could happen but if we are dreaming Evansville would be a better fit than Bradley.

I agree, historically speaking, and I agree that all the good travel partners would be taken, but the simple fact is, if Oakland joins, six different schools would be closer than Evansville (the two Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois schools).  Heck, Wright State and Bradley itself would be more convenient travel partners...

There is no good way from Valpo to Evansville.  If one were to make good time on the Interstate, Cleveland State might be a little closer, time-wise.

[crusaderjoe]

The previous few posts underscore what I was driving at by bringing Bradley into the conversation and then finally concluding there is no reason for them to come over.  IMO There just ain't any schools out there that fit the geographic footprint (a very big attribute consideration as pointed out below) and can either maintain the brand at pre-Butler levels or add to the HL brand/RPI if the HL insists on being an individual conference going forward. So, maybe it comes back to something like Panther's idea:  a MVC/HL merger into an expanded MVC superconference with east/west divisions. Markets covered: Milwaukee, Chicago, Detriot, Omaha, St. Louis, Cleveland, Dayton.  But that's 19 schools.  18 would set up two 9 team divisions.  MBB schedules would have 16 H&H inside the division and (6-8?) games against opposite division schools and (6-8?) games non-conference.  Might look like this (or not).

EAST
Wright
CSU
Detroit
VU
Indiana State
Evansville
Illinois SU
NIU
Bradley

WEST
UWGB
UWM
Loyola
UIC
Northern Iowa
Creighton
Drake
MO State
SIU

1994:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hvRHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=z-wDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6900,3514108&dq=leaving+the+wac&hl=en

1998:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=F8k0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=LmsFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6326,4895182&dq=leaving+the+wac&hl=en


18?  If 16 didn't work, how will 18?

[blackpantheruwm]

What motivation does the MVC have to merge with the Horizon League?

[FWalum]

The MVC might look at pilfering the top 3 or 4 teams from the Horizon League but that would be about the extent of their interest.  There is no incentive for a higher rated conference to wholesale add another lower rated conference and dilute their product along with adding a ton of geographical and demographic issues.

[blackpantheruwm]

The MVC might look at pilfering the top 3 or 4 teams from the Horizon League but that would be about the extent of their interest.  There is no incentive for a higher rated conference to wholesale add another lower rated conference and dilute their product along with adding a ton of geographical and demographic issues.

Just curious, what do 3 or 4 Horizon League teams add to the MVC?  If you've been following along, I put out a couple stories in the past few months pushing Milwaukee to seek membership in the MVC. I continued my research, kept pushing, and at the end of the day realized that we haven't proven we can be an asset.

The Horizon may be looking to add teams with at-large potential, but the MVC is solid and isolated enough to know that they don't "need" anything.  Creighton is the only school with the possibility of being pilfered, and unless the A10 starts moving significantly west it's just not going to happen.

The hope that the Horizon schools have of joining the MVC would be Creighton's departure. But so much of the A10 was weary of moving west for Butler that it took more than a year for them to ask. Omaha is so much further west, I almost think it's impossible. That's our only shot.

[FWalum]

Quote from: FWalum on June 19, 2012, 07:59:46 PM

    The MVC might look at pilfering the top 3 or 4 teams from the Horizon League but that would be about the extent of their interest.  There is no incentive for a higher rated conference to wholesale add another lower rated conference and dilute their product along with adding a ton of geographical and demographic issues.


Just curious, what do 3 or 4 Horizon League teams add to the MVC?

Nothing really, that is why I stated it in a skeptical manner.  I was just looking at some of the previous posts talking about a MVC HL merger as pretty ridiculous.

[crusadermoe]

OK, since someone floated an MVC-Horizon "merger", I will float my crazy hunch.   LeCrone made some pretty sweeping statements about the whole landscape changing.   He noted the major gulf between the BCS bowl-eligible D-1 conferences and the "rest of D-1" and noted that FOOTBALL is the key driver of the gulf.   Not new idea.   But.....maybe it opens door to more flexibility.   So maybe there is one viable idea for a new larger D-1conference in the midwest. 
I never really considered the MVC idea.  The MVC has NO incentives.  Travel wouldnt' improve either.  OK....here is my conspiracy theory......with NO inside knowledge......nor hearing of one single rumor.    The Horizon merges with the MAC.     Teams already schedule each other often. 
The biggest reasons NOT to do so would be the loss of an automatic NCAA bid and non-addition of TV markets.   The possible BID LOSS would stop the idea cold UNLESS the new league could get consent to have two automatic bids.    NOT LIKELY,.....but.... 
The biggest pluses are two:   1--Less travel cost for all schools, especially good for non-hoops sports.   2--More fan interest in the major cities due to multiple teams in the key markets of Chicago, Detroit,  and Cleveland.   20 teams total and natural travel partners.   
West:  Loyola- UIC, .....UWGB-UWM,......Valpo-Northern Illinois, ......EMU-CMU...... Detroit-- (and OAKLAND***) 
East:   Miami-Wright State;.... Kent-Akron,.....Ball State-Toledo,......Buffalo-Ohio U (least natural of the partners)
Who knows?    I've always wondered if CSU and YSU travel to Wisconsin is painful and vice versa.   Same for No. Illinois and Ball State in the MAC going to Ohio so often.