12/4 Valpo v Ball State (6pm cst). -- game thread

[valpotx]

There's some bulletin board material for the C-rated players and below !  It's interesting to see the factors they take into account when picking a spread.

http://valpodaily.com/valparaiso-basketball/game-preview/valparaiso-5-4-goes-up-against-ball-state-2-4

[valpo95]

I just was thinking that about 20 years ago, Valpo beat Ball State and there were t-shirts available in the bookstore commemorating the victory.  Whatever we think about our team this year (and the exciting young players in particular), consider how far Valpo basketball has come that it is a slight favorite against Ball State.  20 years ago, Ball State was clearly the more well-known national brand, but the records and profiles since then have gone in different directions. 

You may be thinking about Valpo's win over Notre Dame in 1993, which came after beating them in Homer's first year.  I actually had one of those tee shirts.  Valpo's history with Ball State goes back to the 20's and for many years they were part of our conference (the ICC).  Our record against them is a very respectable 28-31, hardly the thing that would relate to a tee shirt memorializing a win!

No, it was definitely Ball State -- the t-shirts said  "BSU -- Ball Who?" or something like that.  I didn't buy one of those t-shirts, but I can't imagine that anyone would print one up regardless of the outcome tonight.

I looked it up, and it was December 12, 1992.  Valpo defeated Ball State 78-75 in 2OT.  It was a great game, and Valpo had lost to Ball State in (at least!) the 10 prior meetings before that game. 

[crusaderjoe]

I just was thinking that about 20 years ago, Valpo beat Ball State and there were t-shirts available in the bookstore commemorating the victory.  Whatever we think about our team this year (and the exciting young players in particular), consider how far Valpo basketball has come that it is a slight favorite against Ball State.  20 years ago, Ball State was clearly the more well-known national brand, but the records and profiles since then have gone in different directions. 

I remember that game.  This was one of the wins that set up the excitement for VU basketball again.  VU was coming off 68 losses over the previous three seasons.  Ball State was a program that was a year or two removed from the Sweet Sixteen.  Huge deal.  Bigger deal was finishing 12-16 that year after three years of 20+ losses.  And the rest they say is history.

[wh]

Our freshmen have 21 of our 31 points at half.  Jordan Coleman does not look like the same player he was before he got hurt.  Shooting 1-7. Hopefully he, LaVonte and Bobby can get on track in the second half.

[talksalot]

69-50.   Nice Win... great defense.  Jabril is looking for FR of the week honors...

[wh]

Our freshmen played 49% of the minutes and had 57% of the points (39 of 69).  Great job by them, as usual.

[vu72]

Either Ball State is bad or we are pretty good. We looked OK, but could have been better--too many turnovers. BSU lost to Butler on their home court by 1 or 2 so it is a really difficult team to evaluate.  With Alec doing basically nothing, I'll take the 19 point win.

[classof2014]

Nice win. Never in doubt in the second half. Nice to see Jubril be the freshman to step up. Seems to be a new one every week. Overall great defensive performance, both Moussa and Vashil need to learn to play without fouling. Other than that no complaints. Team played well, good road win and a good confidence building win before the big game against SLU on Saturday.

[StlVUFan]

I relish this win.  The one time I was there, they mauled us, something like 63-40.  Only bright spot was I got to sit next to Greg Tonagel and talk with him a tiny bit.  I forget which year that was, but Valpo was still in the Mid-Con at the time, I think.

[valporun]

If I remember correctly, Ball State has a new head coach this season. I know a player from my local area went to BSU as a freshman, then he transferred out when the coach was fired.

[VUfan]

Good Road Win, improving defense carries's the day. 

[vu72]

Here is their news conference:

http://www.thestarpress.com/article/20131204/SPORTS20/131204009/Frigid-shooting-dooms-Ball-State-basketball-team

isn't Koch the kid who used to play at Wright State?

[wh]

Either Ball State is bad or we are pretty good. We looked OK, but could have been better--too many turnovers. BSU lost to Butler on their home court by 1 or 2 so it is a really difficult team to evaluate.  With Alec doing basically nothing, I'll take the 19 point win.

I agree that the Butler thing just seems crazy. I would rather look at how we did against them vs. how CSU did.  Despite playing one of our poorer overall games to date, we still dominated them on their court by nearly the same margin as CSU beat them at home. Speaking of which, I watched the last part of the CSU triple OT loss to Drexel tonight.  I disagree with Paul Oren's tweet tonight that GB and CSU represent the 1st tier in the HL right now, and we're in some other tier (which didn't seem readily apparent which other tier he was talking about).  CSU looked pretty good, but they also have limitations, including mediocre outside shooting and a very short bench. They are another team that doesn't look nearly effective on the defensive end now that they can no longer mug people.  I still need to check out GB, but so far I haven't found anyone that I would give the edge to over Valpo.   

[classof2014]

It was a nice boring win. Valpo didn't need to do anything special today and for the most part they played within their means and didn't force anything. This was a big win for this group as they went on the road and took care of business with a 19 point win. They were definitely superior to Ball State and just executed better.

The freshmen on this team are unreal. I was expecting production out of some of them but not quite at this level. If someone was unfamiliar with Valpo basketball they would find it hard to believe that we start 3 freshmen, and have another that contributes off the bench. Without a doubt we stole 4 incredible kids who have extremely bright futures. It will be interesting to see how they play against SLU. Looking forward to that game, not gonna be easy but it's at home and I'm hoping for a big crowd so the ARC will be deafening.

[a3uge]

Either Ball State is bad or we are pretty good. We looked OK, but could have been better--too many turnovers. BSU lost to Butler on their home court by 1 or 2 so it is a really difficult team to evaluate.  With Alec doing basically nothing, I'll take the 19 point win.

I agree that the Butler thing just seems crazy. I would rather look at how we did against them vs. how CSU did.  Despite playing one of our poorer overall games to date, we still dominated them on their court by nearly the same margin as CSU beat them at home. Speaking of which, I watched the last part of the CSU triple OT loss to Drexel tonight.  I disagree with Paul Oren's tweet tonight that GB and CSU represent the 1st tier in the HL right now, and we're in some other tier (which didn't seem readily apparent which other tier he was talking about).  CSU looked pretty good, but they also have limitations, including mediocre outside shooting and a very short bench. They are another team that doesn't look nearly effective on the defensive end now that they can no longer mug people.  I still need to check out GB, but so far I haven't found anyone that I would give the edge to over Valpo.   

Oren also had a Tweet about how he liked Oakland's schedule... I don't know starting the year off 0-7 without playing a home game doesn't really seem productive (they still play Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan St). So they'll start conference play 3-10 (or worse)... then what? Win the conference and enjoy playing Kansas in the first round of the tournament? Just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me. I'd rather have a balanced schedule that includes some confidence boosters.

Drexel is probably a top 10 mid major program right now. Drexel lead Arizona (now #1) going into the 4th quarter, and Cleveland State lead Kentucky (now #3) going into the 4th quarter a couple weeks ago. "Close" doesn't really count in college basketball, but being able to hang with a potential #1 seed is a sign of a decent team. CSU's other two losses are Eastern Michigan (not as bad as a mid major as you would think anymore) and San Fran (not very good). How would Valpo do right now in Kentucky or in Drexel? I don't think we would be leading Kentucky in the 2nd half and I don't think we'd take Drexel into triple overtime.

CSU is a dangerous team and I could see them getting the 1 or 2 seed in the Horizon. They're still going to lose 5 or so games in conference. I feel Valpo will split games with them.

I'm not really sure you can tier the Horizon League this year. Green Bay hasn't really played anybody (literally only have played 4 D1 games), so it's hard to categorize them yet. Everyone just seems like a mediocre mush. At the end of the year, I don't think there will be any team in the league that can boast a top 50 RPI win. Right now the conference's best win is Cleveland State's home win vs Iona in the first game of the year. UIC's win against San Diego might be the second best. I keep saying this, but unless some bad teams win their conference tourney's, the HL is destined for a 15 seed. If a team rolls the table in the HL and only loses 3-4 games, the conference isn't going to be good enough to prop them up. On the bright side, we don't seem to have another last-years-Milwaukee team in the conference. I feel all of the HL's teams are going to be -300 RPI.

[classof2014]

Oren also had a Tweet about how he liked Oakland's schedule... I don't know starting the year off 0-7 without playing a home game doesn't really seem productive (they still play Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan St). So they'll start conference play 3-10 (or worse)... then what? Win the conference and enjoy playing Kansas in the first round of the tournament? Just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me. I'd rather have a balanced schedule that includes some confidence boosters.

This is basically the issue I previously stated about Kampe. Scheduling a few of those games is good but having the high number of games where your chance of winning is 10% or less just is poor scheduling. I'm sure the kids start the season off optimistic but now being 0-7 without a home game is just degrading. I would guess Oakland has zero confidence right now, Kampe needs to do a better job scheduling if he wants to turn Oakland into a top-tier mid-major program. I'm guessing Oakland will finish middle of the pack in the HL, I'm guessing they'll be 9-7 in conference play, which will give them a 12-17 record if they were to enter 3-10. Not very good and have almost no chance of making an after season tournament with a 12 win campaign. Not to mention being sub .500 won't help recruiting. Yes they can say they play top level programs but what do they have to show for it? Just a bunch of losses. Kids want to go to winners not teams that lose to winners.

[a3uge]

Oren also had a Tweet about how he liked Oakland's schedule... I don't know starting the year off 0-7 without playing a home game doesn't really seem productive (they still play Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan St). So they'll start conference play 3-10 (or worse)... then what? Win the conference and enjoy playing Kansas in the first round of the tournament? Just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me. I'd rather have a balanced schedule that includes some confidence boosters.

This is basically the issue I previously stated about Kampe. Scheduling a few of those games is good but having the high number of games where your chance of winning is 10% or less just is poor scheduling. I'm sure the kids start the season off optimistic but now being 0-7 without a home game is just degrading. I would guess Oakland has zero confidence right now, Kampe needs to do a better job scheduling if he wants to turn Oakland into a top-tier mid-major program. I'm guessing Oakland will finish middle of the pack in the HL, I'm guessing they'll be 9-7 in conference play, which will give them a 12-17 record if they were to enter 3-10. Not very good and have almost no chance of making an after season tournament with a 12 win campaign. Not to mention being sub .500 won't help recruiting. Yes they can say they play top level programs but what do they have to show for it? Just a bunch of losses. Kids want to go to winners not teams that lose to winners.

Maybe they want to brag to recruits that they beat Indiana or something like that. I don't know, but I'd agree that scheduling good home games, having a winning record, and making the tourney with a good seed with a chance for an upset is far better for recruiting.

[bbtds]

Oren also had a Tweet about how he liked Oakland's schedule... I don't know starting the year off 0-7 without playing a home game doesn't really seem productive (they still play Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan St). So they'll start conference play 3-10 (or worse)... then what? Win the conference and enjoy playing Kansas in the first round of the tournament? Just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me. I'd rather have a balanced schedule that includes some confidence boosters.

This is basically the issue I previously stated about Kampe. Scheduling a few of those games is good but having the high number of games where your chance of winning is 10% or less just is poor scheduling. I'm sure the kids start the season off optimistic but now being 0-7 without a home game is just degrading. I would guess Oakland has zero confidence right now, Kampe needs to do a better job scheduling if he wants to turn Oakland into a top-tier mid-major program. I'm guessing Oakland will finish middle of the pack in the HL, I'm guessing they'll be 9-7 in conference play, which will give them a 12-17 record if they were to enter 3-10. Not very good and have almost no chance of making an after season tournament with a 12 win campaign. Not to mention being sub .500 won't help recruiting. Yes they can say they play top level programs but what do they have to show for it? Just a bunch of losses. Kids want to go to winners not teams that lose to winners.

I think Kampe has acknowledged that his current scheduling is not "correct" for the Horizon League and that he will schedule more mid-majors in the future. No need to keep hounding him for it.

[a3uge]

Oren also had a Tweet about how he liked Oakland's schedule... I don't know starting the year off 0-7 without playing a home game doesn't really seem productive (they still play Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan St). So they'll start conference play 3-10 (or worse)... then what? Win the conference and enjoy playing Kansas in the first round of the tournament? Just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me. I'd rather have a balanced schedule that includes some confidence boosters.

This is basically the issue I previously stated about Kampe. Scheduling a few of those games is good but having the high number of games where your chance of winning is 10% or less just is poor scheduling. I'm sure the kids start the season off optimistic but now being 0-7 without a home game is just degrading. I would guess Oakland has zero confidence right now, Kampe needs to do a better job scheduling if he wants to turn Oakland into a top-tier mid-major program. I'm guessing Oakland will finish middle of the pack in the HL, I'm guessing they'll be 9-7 in conference play, which will give them a 12-17 record if they were to enter 3-10. Not very good and have almost no chance of making an after season tournament with a 12 win campaign. Not to mention being sub .500 won't help recruiting. Yes they can say they play top level programs but what do they have to show for it? Just a bunch of losses. Kids want to go to winners not teams that lose to winners.

I think Kampe has acknowledged that his current scheduling is not "correct" for the Horizon League and that he will schedule more mid-majors in the future. No need to keep hounding him for it.

Not speaking for co2013, but I was more hounding Oren for tweeting that. I guess there's still some people left who think it's a good idea for a mediocre mid major team to have a top 15 OOC SOS.

[bw12]

Oren also had a Tweet about how he liked Oakland's schedule... I don't know starting the year off 0-7 without playing a home game doesn't really seem productive (they still play Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan St). So they'll start conference play 3-10 (or worse)... then what? Win the conference and enjoy playing Kansas in the first round of the tournament? Just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me. I'd rather have a balanced schedule that includes some confidence boosters.

This is basically the issue I previously stated about Kampe. Scheduling a few of those games is good but having the high number of games where your chance of winning is 10% or less just is poor scheduling. I'm sure the kids start the season off optimistic but now being 0-7 without a home game is just degrading. I would guess Oakland has zero confidence right now, Kampe needs to do a better job scheduling if he wants to turn Oakland into a top-tier mid-major program. I'm guessing Oakland will finish middle of the pack in the HL, I'm guessing they'll be 9-7 in conference play, which will give them a 12-17 record if they were to enter 3-10. Not very good and have almost no chance of making an after season tournament with a 12 win campaign. Not to mention being sub .500 won't help recruiting. Yes they can say they play top level programs but what do they have to show for it? Just a bunch of losses. Kids want to go to winners not teams that lose to winners.

I think Kampe has acknowledged that his current scheduling is not "correct" for the Horizon League and that he will schedule more mid-majors in the future. No need to keep hounding him for it.

Kampe is just doing what he has done every year. However, the difference will be that this year will be a much tougher conference schedule for them, so they do most likely need to look at a switch.

That being said, I believe he schedules a lot of these games because they generate revenue. It doesn't seem like many of them turn into home and home series, so my guess is they like the revenue that the games bring them.

[bbtds]

Oren also had a Tweet about how he liked Oakland's schedule... I don't know starting the year off 0-7 without playing a home game doesn't really seem productive (they still play Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan St). So they'll start conference play 3-10 (or worse)... then what? Win the conference and enjoy playing Kansas in the first round of the tournament? Just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me. I'd rather have a balanced schedule that includes some confidence boosters.

This is basically the issue I previously stated about Kampe. Scheduling a few of those games is good but having the high number of games where your chance of winning is 10% or less just is poor scheduling. I'm sure the kids start the season off optimistic but now being 0-7 without a home game is just degrading. I would guess Oakland has zero confidence right now, Kampe needs to do a better job scheduling if he wants to turn Oakland into a top-tier mid-major program. I'm guessing Oakland will finish middle of the pack in the HL, I'm guessing they'll be 9-7 in conference play, which will give them a 12-17 record if they were to enter 3-10. Not very good and have almost no chance of making an after season tournament with a 12 win campaign. Not to mention being sub .500 won't help recruiting. Yes they can say they play top level programs but what do they have to show for it? Just a bunch of losses. Kids want to go to winners not teams that lose to winners.

I think Kampe has acknowledged that his current scheduling is not "correct" for the Horizon League and that he will schedule more mid-majors in the future. No need to keep hounding him for it.

Kampe is just doing what he has done every year. However, the difference will be that this year will be a much tougher conference schedule for them, so they do most likely need to look at a switch.

That being said, I believe he schedules a lot of these games because they generate revenue. It doesn't seem like many of them turn into home and home series, so my guess is they like the revenue that the games bring them.

And now that Oakland is in the HL Kampe doesn't need to schedule as many because OU is saving money on travel. Remember when Homer used to schedule a lot of #1 through #10 for the payday in the old Mid-Con? That really helped pay for the Mid-Con travel. Not as many as Kampe but a lot for one year. Now that Valpo is in the HL Bryce has started scheduling tough mid-majors and Saint Louis (that is for our Billiken friends). 

[Pgmado]

I'm not the biggest fan in how Oakland schedules. I am, however, a big fan in Kampe's reaction to questions about it. I love that he is candid in saying that he's not a young coach and he doesn't need to pad his record. We can argue all day about whether or not getting your head beaten in game-in and game-out does any good. I just happen to love Kampe's justification.

As for where I think Valpo will finish. Green Bay (for what they should be) and Cleveland State (for what they're showing so far) look to be the best in the league. This Valpo team has the chance to be real special, but they still go through stretches of play where they don't score for minutes at a time. It happened again last night against a terrible Ball State team. I think Keith Carter will help this quite a bit, but I'm cautious at the moment. I'm prepared to eat as much crow as needed, but I'm thinking anywhere between a 3rd-to-5th place finish.   

[bbtds]

I'm not the biggest fan in how Oakland schedules. I am, however, a big fan in Kampe's reaction to questions about it. I love that he is candid in saying that he's not a young coach and he doesn't need to pad his record. We can argue all day about whether or not getting your head beaten in game-in and game-out does any good. I just happen to love Kampe's justification.

As for where I think Valpo will finish. Green Bay (for what they should be) and Cleveland State (for what they're showing so far) look to be the best in the league. This Valpo team has the chance to be real special, but they still go through stretches of play where they don't score for minutes at a time. It happened again last night against a terrible Ball State team. I think Keith Carter will help this quite a bit, but I'm cautious at the moment. I'm prepared to eat as much crow as needed, but I'm thinking anywhere between a 3rd-to-5th place finish.   

I would tend to agree with you. I do think the freshmen will play their hearts out for the seniors but it will be an uphill climb to get to the NCAA tourney for this year's Valpo team.

Thank's for your honest explanations.

[justducky]

As for where I think Valpo will finish. Green Bay (for what they should be) and Cleveland State (for what they're showing so far) look to be the best in the league. This Valpo team has the chance to be real special, but they still go through stretches of play where they don't score for minutes at a time. It happened again last night against a terrible Ball State team. I think Keith Carter will help this quite a bit, but I'm cautious at the moment. I'm prepared to eat as much crow as needed, but I'm thinking anywhere between a 3rd-to-5th place finish.   

I would tend to agree with you. I do think the freshmen will play their hearts out for the seniors but it will be an uphill climb to get to the NCAA tourney for this year's Valpo team.

The abilities and progress of this freshman class are bringing me ever closer to a belief that we might have a slim shot at another Horizon League regular season title. This years league balance might mean that a 5 or even 6 loss team could host the tournament, and I think we could be in that category. We have without question the best size and depth of size in the Horizon. Couple that with better than average HL shooting, better than average HL speed (with Carter) and add in the deepest most diversified bench talents in the league and I can envision a late season run of success. I could also repeat my argument that our mix of size and speed should enable us to exploit the NCAA rule changes better than our HL competitors, but I hate to repeat myself.

To sum this up- I now believe that we should finish no lower than 3'rd (if healthy) and have a very impressive month of February.

[bbtds]

I could also repeat my argument that our mix of size and speed should enable us to exploit the NCAA rule changes better than our HL competitors,

Do you truly believe that Gueye and Fernandez will learn not to foul out by the time conference (or is it better to say league) season starts? Because their fouling so much is really hurting us because of the new rules.