Here is our preview for the IPFW game.
http://sectionee.blogspot.com/2011/12/game-preview-ipfw.html (http://sectionee.blogspot.com/2011/12/game-preview-ipfw.html)
This is a good test for this team's fortitude. Huge win on Saturday, winnable road game on Wednesday. Need to forget about Saturday and devour the Mastadons early, one bite at a time.
Chomp-Chomp, inside-Inside quickness, sharp passing, pound the boards= go home with a smile
VU 76 IPUFW.... 64
Love all the enthusiasm here, but my calendar says the Lady 'Saders take on the Lady 'Stadons on 12/6, not 12/7. Let me echo VUfan and state for the record that I see a 12 point VU winner!
My calendar looks fine. Stop thread hijacking. :crazy:
I thought it was cute!
I'm planning to head to the Allen County Coliseum on Wednesday... 27 traffic lights between here and the left-turn past I-69... my record is 24 green coming home one night after a tourney game. and I remember broadcasting a High School Semi State game with Dave Bard! in the late 1970s (Argos Dragons big year if that helps put a date with it) from the upper-balcony press row. Going to watch a Valpo 25-point with. I just looked at the Mastadon box from the last game... Trey was their stud and only played 9 minutes. This will really hurt the ole' RPI... now at 24 in one of the polls...
Valpo 75
IPFW 62
I am hoping for even more of a beat-down than I am predicting due to comments made by the IPFW administration 2-3 years ago that they 'consistently beat Valpo in all sports' when addressing interest in eventually moving to the HL. I believe we have many more wins than losses in all sports against IPFW, and they were just on a high of winning a few games against some of our teams, but that still irks me to this day. A Dane Fife-coached team would make this a closer game, not as worried by whoever replaced him. They lost by 15 at home to UMKC, who lost by 46 at Wisconsin, and by 4 to Utah Valley. IPFW also barely snuck a 5 point win over South Dakota at home, who is still in a transition phase from D-2 after joining the Summit.
Valpo -80
IPFW - 68
We control the tempo and the boards.
Do not overlook this game! These Intrastate contests have been much closer over the last few years then they were in the beginning. This is a big game for IPFW and they see it as a rivalry/bragging rights game. Their coach and players said as much on the coaches show this evening. They are a young team with a first year coach that does have a couple of good players in Gaines and McCorkle. Gaines lives at the free throw line and is very aggressive, sometimes too much so. He is most likely going to get his points as he has even against Xavier and Iowa. The key to victory is ball pressure against their young backcourt. If Buggs can stay out of foul trouble while still applying his tenacious ball hawking we should be in good shape. Kevin also needs to make a little comeback and have a good game against McCorkle.
VU - 78
IPFW - 66
What'd these guys beat us, six in a row, before last season? Embarrassing. We'd better come ready to play tonight!
Anyone investigate the video option? Looks like IPFW has streaming video, but I'm not sure what the cost is, whether you can buy a single game pass, etc.
Quote from: agibson on December 07, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
What'd these guys beat us, six in a row, before last season? Embarrassing. We'd better come ready to play tonight!
Anyone investigate the video option? Looks like IPFW has streaming video, but I'm not sure what the cost is, whether you can buy a single game pass, etc.
The record book says we are 8-2 all time going into tonight's game.
I just registered to watch the game on their athletics site. $5.95 for the single game. Thank goodness for the Horizon League free site!
I think you may be confusing IPFW with someone else, as we are 8-2 versus them historically. We did lose twice in a row before last season's victory, for our 2 losses.
Great article from the News-Sentinal about tonight's game. Great quotes as well! "those are old guys" Brad Stevens
http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111207/SPORTS/111209750 (http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111207/SPORTS/111209750)
Quote from: valpotx on December 07, 2011, 12:54:08 PM
I think you may be confusing IPFW with someone else, as we are 8-2 versus them historically. We did lose twice in a row before last season's victory, for our 2 losses.
Funny! It did seem inexplicable that we could drop six in a row. I'll have to dig up the source on that - probably it was a piece from the IPFW perspective. _Maybe_ it could be six in a row in all sports, or some such?
Was it at least two in one season, home-and-away? That's my, slightly dim but personal, recollection.
It will be interesting to see if his prediction of Gaines being the best player in the game is true. Never heard of him, but then again, I don't follow IPFW of the Summit anymore. To say he will have 30 pts against Bogan may be a bit of an overstatement, but I bet Kenney guards him anyways.
We lost to IPFW at their place 75-72 in 2009-2010, and at home 63-46 in 2008-2009. In other words, they beat us by a lot when we were really suffering from the loss of Haanpaa and Bouchie (9-22 that year), and barely the year after on their court.
Quote from: vu72 on December 07, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Great article from the News-Sentinal about tonight's game. Great quotes as well! "those are old guys" Brad Stevens
http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111207/SPORTS/111209750 (http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111207/SPORTS/111209750)
The writer says that Gaines will be the best player on the floor in tonight's game, as if that's a given. He should have said "best scorer" in tonight's game. There is not a doubt in my mind that the best all around player in tonight's game will be Ryan Broekhoff. In IPFW's 4 games against D-1 opponents, Gaines is shooting 40% overall, only 30% from 3. He is your run-of-the-mill Summit (Mid Con) one-man show - ala Watson or Helms. Shoots a lot, gets fouled a lot. The writer also failed to mention that he has turned the ball over 4, 4, and 5 times in 3 of their 4 D-1 games. His assist:turnover ratio 0.33:1. Writers give one dimensional players like this guy way more praise than they deserve.
The writer must be trying to build up Gaines's ego, or at least try to get him going before Summit play starts?
Quote from: agibson on December 07, 2011, 01:22:58 PM
Quote from: valpotx on December 07, 2011, 12:54:08 PM
I think you may be confusing IPFW with someone else, as we are 8-2 versus them historically. We did lose twice in a row before last season's victory, for our 2 losses.
Funny! It did seem inexplicable that we could drop six in a row. I'll have to dig up the source on that - probably it was a piece from the IPFW perspective. _Maybe_ it could be six in a row in all sports, or some such?
Was it at least two in one season, home-and-away? That's my, slightly dim but personal, recollection.
Maybe it was a locational thing - In IPFW's mind they COULD have won 6 in row!
It's kind of funny the way they want to compare to us, when there really isn't that great of a comparison to be made on several fronts (private/public school, no D-1 basketball history, etc). I guess it is like us trying to compare ourselves to bigger/better schools, but for them to continuously put out press over the last few years saying they have beaten us regularly is an absolute joke. I very much hope that we beat them by 20+ just for my own personal satisfaction. In baseball when I was in school, they were not even close to us, but they still talked a lot of trash.
Quote from: vu72 on December 07, 2011, 12:45:40 PMI just registered to watch the game on their athletics site. $5.95 for the single game.
OK - not bad. I've got it going here now as well - gathering the family around the laptop for a basketball supper. Why not?
Quote from: valpotx on December 07, 2011, 03:16:19 PMWe lost to IPFW at their place 75-72 in 2009-2010, and at home 63-46 in 2008-2009.
Wow, I'm not doing well here today. I guess that's a _kind_ of a home-and-away. But, I really was thinking in-season.
As for the IPFW source I was (poorly) repeating, it was
http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20111112/SPORTS0305/311129922/1086/SPORTS0305 (http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20111112/SPORTS0305/311129922/1086/SPORTS0305)
They were probably actually entirely complementary to Valpo - I just read the piece too quickly while remembering the discussion here of outsized IPFW claims and ambitions.
The quote is
Quote
Want a solid measuring stick before the Summit League gets into full gear? Valpo should be it. Last season the Crusaders ended a six-game Mastodons winning streak, 63-47 at Valpo. It was so bad, Fife didn't attend the post-game news conference.
The six-game win streak they're referencing was a six-game _in-season_ win streak. Six games in a row last season that IPFW had won (best win... Toledo?) before losing at Valpo.
Listening to IPFW's radio coverage, I find it interesting how they refer to this game as a big rivalry game...when did this become a rivalry?
Quote from: Valpo2010 on December 07, 2011, 06:04:23 PM
Listening to IPFW's radio coverage, I find it interesting how they refer to this game as a big rivalry game...when did this become a rivalry?
It seems something like Valpo and Butler - though without the 100-game (mostly ancient?) history.
The video is terrible as they continually show replays while play continues. Missed about 1/4 of the action as a result.
Worst half I've seen Valpo play in a couple of years. We either turn it up a bunch or will be very embarrassed. Down by 7 at the half
44 points at half - are you kidding me? OSU didn't have that many. We should commit to a 25-point defensive 2nd half.
This is starting like last year's Toledo game. We will soon see what kind of a halftime motivator Bryce is...
Oh, and how about the constant 30-second replays of IPFW baskets while we have the ball on the other end. A new local yokal low in internet basketball coverage.
I can't stress how terrible of a loss this is. I am speechless in losing to IPFW this year, they are not good. We gave away too many easy baskets, and way too many turnovers. Hopefully serves as a reality check for our guys so they can concentrate on the next few important games.
Tough loss for Valpo. 85-76 final for IPFW. Followed most of the game via friends on twitter and saw that we had a rough start while IPFW opened up red hot offensively. We made some good runs but never got control.
Also, anyone have issues with OUR links to the webcast? I tried WAKE's online stream on the athletics site and it might not have been turned on. I found WJOB online, but it was 1 or 2 minutes slower than the twitter feeds I found.
Love a good trap game (SI). Lots of lessons to be learned about coming back against good opponents after big wins. Need to tune up for conference season, but very disappointing.
Pathetic effort. The guys looked lost and disinterested the entire game. Pretty good game for Ryan and Will but Ryan turned it over too many times. Terrible effort from Richie and Buggs? Fouled out again with 2 points. Embarrassing to say the least. Probably had 25 tos tonight. Thank God it wasn't a conference game but sure will fall into the "bad loss" column should we need to get into a tourney of some sort.
This was absolutely pathetic. We should have beat IPFW by 15+. Defense and turnovers continue to be a problem.
Last game of a three game road trip was shaping up as a trap game. IPFW shot the ball out of their minds (sounds like it was bad D but they still had to put it in the hoop). I didn't follow the game but I'm looking forward to checking out the stats and reading the wrap up. I did see our bench did nothing, and Buggs looks like he had a pretty awful game. We need Boggs in a bad way right now to grab some minutes and provide something offensively.
If we beat both Bowling Green and Oakland at home the next two games, I will pick my spirits up. I had figured we might lose one of these 3 games due to the intensity of the Butler game.
Quote from: KL31NY on December 07, 2011, 07:51:21 PMAlso, anyone have issues with OUR links to the webcast? I tried WAKE's online stream on the athletics site and it might not have been turned on.
I didn't follow any links, but the usual WAKE URL of
http://stream3web.securenetsystems.net/radio_player_large.cfm?stationCallSign=WAKE&relocateURL=true (http://stream3web.securenetsystems.net/radio_player_large.cfm?stationCallSign=WAKE&relocateURL=true)
worked OK for me for pre-game, half-time, and post-game.
Is Boggs eligible for the 12/17 game against Oakland? I thought I read somewhere that it would be the earliest he could be available.
http://sectionee.blogspot.com/2011/12/ipfw-wrapup.html (http://sectionee.blogspot.com/2011/12/ipfw-wrapup.html)
Hard to beat a team that shoots 58% from 3-pt land, nearly 61% overall, and 80% from the stripe, especially when you only hit 53% from the stripe. We'll need to bounce back quickly.
IPFW IS a D-1 Basketball Program not a vary good one but they have some ability, given the chance they can beat you. Valparaiso will be a good team when they respect teams like them and start the game by working hard, playing defence, setting picks hard, going to the basket and establishing control of the basketball until then they just hope to be good. >:( night
Cudos -- unfortunately -- to FWalum for pretty accurately previewing the game and sending out warning flares that apparently weren't seen by the right people.
FWalum was right on the money on this one...maybe we need him working in the program in some sort of advisory role!
Dollars to donuts that there will be some good-natured ribbing of the guys by the Lady 'Saders in the ARC this week...girls beat IPFW, guys didn't...but anyone close to the program knows this group of guys and gals is tight and it will be all in fun. The girls finally have something to smile about!
valpotx, the semester ends on the 16th, so Boggs should be eligible on Saturday the 17th.
Thanks for the node but I can't take too much credit. The staff was very conscious that this was a trap game and made some moves that should have helped the situation. As much as I love having the team play in Fort Wayne I really think this series has out lived its usefulness. I hate it when teams won't play other teams at home because they have too much to lose, but we really are in that situation here. This may have been IPFW's biggest game of the year until they get to the Summit League tournament and since I host the coaches show at the ACME I'm sure I will not hear the end of it. We have nothing to gain by continuing this "rivalry" (and I use that term lightly only because IPFW uses it so frequently they almost have me believing it) and only a lot to lose. I think we will still play them at home next year but then this "rivalry" should be cooled off for a while.
This was by far IPFW's best performance of the year. Two games ago I thought they looked terrible against UMKC and tonight they hardly missed a shot.
Just a short note of gratitude to the VU athletic and alumni staff for all that they do. We all got together today and tried as best we could to promote VU to the Fort Wayne community. Thanks
I would agree about the scheduling of IPFW. At best, we should be getting a 2 home games per 1 away game deal. That seems to be what other schools always do to us when their conference/program is much better
Quote from: valpotx on December 08, 2011, 01:36:26 AM
I would agree about the scheduling of IPFW. At best, we should be getting a 2 home games per 1 away game deal. That seems to be what other schools always do to us when their conference/program is much better
Isn't this why Valpo stopped playing Butler? Because Butler started asking Valpo for a 2 for 1 on the scheduling before Valpo joined the Horizon League. How soon we forget when the shoe is on the other foot. Essentially we have the same situation if Valpo asks for a 2 for 1 from IPFW. A Horizon League team asking a Mid-Con/Summit team for a 2 for 1.
Well, the Summit is a conference between 22nd-25th+ in RPI every year, whereas HL is 10th-13th. I never complained about a Butler 2 for 1 years ago, as I just wanted to play them when we were in the Mid-Con. Some may have complained about that arrangement, but I would have loved to test ourselves against them with some of those teams we had.
Back in my coaching days, we welcomed the chance to "play up", and did it at every oportunity. It was the only true way to improve, and it gave our players a true yardstick of where we were at with our game. It went a long way towards making us, and them, better. It seems to be working for IPFW too. If I were the one making the decisions for IPFW, I'd jump at the chance for a 2 for 1. If we went in there and consistently blew them out, it may make sense to re-evaluate the "rivalry". After last night, I'd say the match up still plays a valuable role in letting us know our weaknesses, and what we need to do to improve our play. The most valuable lesson to take from this - you'd better lace them up and come to play, every night, no matter who the opponent is. With that, the men can learn something from the ladies. As mentioned, I'm sure they'll be some good hearted ribbing in the gym this week. And the men have it coming!
They'll bounce back. I'd say they needed this game. Complacency was setting in.
The writer from Fort Wayne made us think he was insane building up Gaines against us, but he was right. Gaines took advantage of our complacency, and put 24 points on us. I hope the humiliation of losing to a lesser opponent humbles the guys to fight harder for shots to fall, and play physical basketball, but in the case of Buggs, NOT FOUL AS MUCH. Honestly, Erik fouling out last night didn't help our guard play. He needs to be controlled, or learn some self control, otherwise we'll lose crucial games in conference play because the other teams will focus on going after his weakness of committing a foul that isn't necessary.
QuoteThe writer from Fort Wayne made us think he was insane building up Gaines against us, but he was right. Gaines took advantage of our complacency, and put 24 points on us. I hope the humiliation of losing to a lesser opponent humbles the guys to fight harder for shots to fall, and play physical basketball, but in the case of Buggs, NOT FOUL AS MUCH. Honestly, Erik fouling out last night didn't help our guard play. He needs to be controlled, or learn some self control, otherwise we'll lose crucial games in conference play because the other teams will focus on going after his weakness of committing a foul that isn't necessary.
Never thought the writer was insane. Gaines is a very good player and will average over 20 points per game for IPFW this year. Did you think that him putting up over 20 on Iowa and Xavier was a fluke??
Here are some additional articles and even a video with Bryce after the Butler game that really shows what a big game this was for IPFW. I have never before seen them have a video interview with the coach of an upcoming game.
http://newssentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111206/SPORTS/111209803 (http://newssentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111206/SPORTS/111209803)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWQ6vf6SNXk#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWQ6vf6SNXk#ws)
http://newssentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111208/SPORTS/111209690 (http://newssentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111208/SPORTS/111209690)
Not that concerned about this one. Need the next 2 though.
My only concern is that this is a questionable loss that might affect our resume for post season tournaments.
Mark Lazerus says IPFW (and any other non-conference game) means nothing:
http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/12/valparaiso-ipfw-post-mortem.html (http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/12/valparaiso-ipfw-post-mortem.html)
If these games mean nothing, then why play them? I understand what he is saying but I am not sure I entirely agree with his remarks in general. From a technical standpoint it is possible that RPI can be used as an HL tournament seeding tiebreaker as an absolute failsafe, so these types of losses do not help because this was a winnable game on the road. These games do mean "something", IMO.
I totally disagree with Lazerus on this one. These games "should" matter, especially since Valpo entered last night's game with only 2 road losses to nationally ranked teams. Not sure why he had already written off at-large hopes. I'd expect teams in the Mid-Con to have that attitude ... don't expect it from teams who expect to contend for the Horizon League title.
Lazerus points out what should have been obvious. I for one never had any hope for an NCAA at-large bid, and a NIT at large would now probably require us to sweep the remaining non conferance plus bracketbuster plus be 13-5 or better in the Horizon. I would think that either a CIT or CBI bid would be available if we both want and can afford it so lets just focus in on 2 things-- team and individual play development and Horizon League play.
I think if it were up to me that I might start Vucic and Kurth in 3 out of our 4 next games because if we get Boggs their playing time might all but disappear when League play begins. If by doing this we dig ourselves a hole from which the rest of the team must emerge then good. On paper Bowling Green, IUPUI, and Northern Illinois are all teams that we should be able to spot 10 points to and win; and if we can't - then why should we even be thinking post season.
The big picture is next season, lets not get distracted and completely lose that larger focus. If we can be first in conferance this year (with its NIT bid) or win the HL tourney then that is just some extra gravy.
I'm honestly not even thinking about any postseason games. Right now, we have some holes that need to be fixed, some eligibility issues that need answered, and to just win our game against Bowling Green. If we can't get answers, or right the wrongs of our first four minutes of the second half of every game, then what does any postseason hope matter because we'll continue to ask why the guys can't get anything going to win the games we're supposed to win, whether out-of-conference or in conference. We just need to answer those things, and win games. The NCAA/NIT/CBI/CIT are the least of my concerns as a fan.
Definitely disagree as well. To basically say that if we won all of our games outside of conference, that it would not matter, is completely false. We could win all our non-conference games, finish 1st in regular season, but lose in the championship game. I imagine we would have been an at-large in such a circumstance, as long as we had 2-4 losses in conference for a maximum of 5-6 losses in a year. To completely write off our chances of getting an at-large bid in any year, regardless of 'standing' in the basketball committee, is a reckless statement. I understand he is saying we should just win the thing to build up the program again, but don't discount the out of conference schedule to do so.
As long as you expect for something not to happen it will in most cases be a self fulfilling prophecy. Nothing is ever set in stone, not next year or next month, next week or even tomorrow. No coach would ever say at this point of the season "well boys, we have no shot at an at large so lets not worry about those pesky out of conference games". Most great teams are one torn ACL or a point guard's high ankle sprain away from mediocrity. It is likely that Boggs will play at the break and almost certain that Fernandez and Jakolis will not be eligible this year. This team can make some hay this year so let's not set the bar so low. Other than last night I have liked what I have seen from this team and coaching staff. Go Valpo!
My only hope is that the guys can put this game behind them quickly and put their focus on BG.
Quote from: zvillehaze on December 08, 2011, 02:34:04 PM
I totally disagree with Lazerus on this one. These games "should" matter, especially since Valpo entered last night's game with only 2 road losses to nationally ranked teams. Not sure why he had already written off at-large hopes. I'd expect teams in the Mid-Con to have that attitude ... don't expect it from teams who expect to contend for the Horizon League title.
I swear that zvillehaze is not my nom de plume.
Non-conference games -- all of them, not just the ones against nationally-ranked teams -- matter for all of the following reasons and then some: recruiting, resume, profile/exposure, facilities improvement, travel budget, scheduling upgrades, casual fan interest and diehard fan sanity. They are certainly not "practice" games.
The other reason these games count is what was discussed earlier: You had a big win against Butler on Saturday, you come back on Wednesday on the road against a team you should beat. You need to learn how to make the mental turnaround and come out and take control of a lesser opponent and its crowd. If we are a contender, we need to learn how to do that. You can also substitute a tough loss for a big win. This would be like beating Detroit at Detroit and then going to Wright State or beating CSU at Wolstein and then going to Penguin Palace this year and not playing to potential. You might get the big win and then lose the winnable game. Scheduling has a purpose and a lesson.
Quote from: FWalum on December 08, 2011, 10:57:36 AMI have never before seen them have a video interview with the coach of an upcoming game.
I did see a crew from WANE in Ft. Wayne at the Valpo/Butler game and was wondering what they were doing there.
At this time, for this season, at this stage...Lazerus is right. These games don't matter because they don't get you any closer to the NCAA tournament. In the end, getting to the NCAA's is all that matters. 20 wins? Nice, but big deal. Regular season champs? Yawn. The only reason the conference season matters is to get a better seed to the automatic qualifier, and...you guessed it...a better shot at the NCAA's.
The reality is, Valpo isn't getting an at large bid, and unless they managed to beat Ohio State or Arizona they weren't getting an at large bid anyway. Well, if they went undefeated the rest of the way they might but the likelyhood of that was nil.
Without saying it, Lazerus told us what many people already think...The NCAA tournament is the only thing that really matters in college basketball.
I agree with Lazerus completely and with this: http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/ipfw-the-morning-after/article_be08ced8-21ec-11e1-a66a-0019bb2963f4.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/ipfw-the-morning-after/article_be08ced8-21ec-11e1-a66a-0019bb2963f4.html)
Nobody's saying it means nothing. They're saying it doesn't mean a whole lot, and they're right. It is a bad loss and it reveals that they aren't quite as good as maybe we thought they were, but come March the only possible impact this will have is on seeding in the NCAA tournament should Valpo somehow manage to pull that off. It might impact the choice of Valpo for NIT/CBI/CIT I suppose, but there is still plenty of time to rectify that and render this game meaningless.
Quote from: milanmiracle on December 09, 2011, 01:29:04 PM
At this time, for this season, at this stage...Lazerus is right. These games don't matter because they don't get you any closer to the NCAA tournament. In the end, getting to the NCAA's is all that matters. 20 wins? Nice, but big deal. Regular season champs? Yawn. The only reason the conference season matters is to get a better seed to the automatic qualifier, and...you guessed it...a better shot at the NCAA's.
The reality is, Valpo isn't getting an at large bid, and unless they managed to beat Ohio State or Arizona they weren't getting an at large bid anyway. Well, if they went undefeated the rest of the way they might but the likelyhood of that was nil.
Without saying it, Lazerus told us what many people already think...The NCAA tournament is the only thing that really matters in college basketball.
Intellectually I agree with you, but having that kind of attitude in sports IMHO is a killer.
If anyone is interested, here is Mark Lazerus' backpedal, um I mean, clarification (yeah that's it) on his commentary from yesterday:
http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/12/valparaiso-ipfw-post-mortem.html (http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/12/valparaiso-ipfw-post-mortem.html)
First stating that non conference games mean nothing because no loss outside of conference is devastating and then stating that conference games are really the only ones that really count are two different things in their entirety and are not mutually exclusive of one another in the context of an entire basketball season, IMO.
Lock that BGSU thread boys...it's irrelevant.
Should we have won? Most likely. Did IPFW play well enough to win? Yes. Did we do enough on defense or offense to deserve to win? No.
We now have seven games against Division I opponents. Before the season started, with away games against Arizona, Ohio St., Georgia Southern, Butler and IPFW, and home games with Akron and Duquesne (Good conference and team RPIs), how many would have thought that we'd be better than 4-3. We still have a good chance of going 7-1 in December, and will most likely have a much better season than most projected.
I think it is hilarious when a message board is mentioned in a newspaper :lol:. I will again state that I would not have whined about a 2-for-1 with Butler years ago when we were in the Mid-Con, and don't think IPFW would/should whine about such an arrangement in the future. I doubt Bryce would do this arrangement (2-1), but I think it is more deserved than ML is indicating. Yes, they have won 3 of the last 4, but that does not mean they are on par with our program or HL teams. Do we do home and aways with every team and risk losing to teams every other year that are 200-300 in rpi just because they shoot lights out in their own gym on a fluke??
I think we should keep the IPFW series as 1 and 1. The series has been good, although more good for IPFW the last few years. It gives VU a chance to play a game in December, without much travel. It also gives the families of IN/MI/OH players a chance to see VU on the road.
So we get to the NCAAs via the Horizon and not an At-Large bid. So, do these losses mean anything? Of course they do--in seeding. If we have several losses to the IPFWs of the world the Horizon title will seem like a fluke and we get?? A 14 or 15 and almost certain death in the first round. Win all those games we are suppose to and then? Maybe a 10. Huge difference that Mr. Lazerus overlooked.
I don't agree with Lazerus, but it seems like most Valpo fans do, so I should probably just go away.
However, here's the part I don't understand. Had Valpo won at IPFW, they would have been 7-2 (6-2 non-con and 1-0 league). Personally, I think winning that game was very important ... not totally meaningless. If I were a Valpo fan, I'd be ticked that Lazerus is 100% certain that Valpo would have no chance for at-large consideration after a 7-2 start (which is why he said the game was meaningless). That's insulting to your program, but sadly, is largely accepted as the truth.
As FWalum pointed out, this attitude becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a program believes they can't earn an at-large bid, then I'm pretty sure they never will.
Quote from: vu72 on December 09, 2011, 05:25:11 PM
So we get to the NCAAs via the Horizon and not an At-Large bid. So, do these losses mean anything? Of course they do--in seeding. If we have several losses to the IPFWs of the world the Horizon title will seem like a fluke and we get?? A 14 or 15 and almost certain death in the first round. Win all those games we are suppose to and then? Maybe a 10. Huge difference that Mr. Lazerus overlooked.
:clap:
Quote from: zvillehaze on December 09, 2011, 05:44:21 PM
Quote from: vu72 on December 09, 2011, 05:25:11 PM
So we get to the NCAAs via the Horizon and not an At-Large bid. So, do these losses mean anything? Of course they do--in seeding. If we have several losses to the IPFWs of the world the Horizon title will seem like a fluke and we get?? A 14 or 15 and almost certain death in the first round. Win all those games we are suppose to and then? Maybe a 10. Huge difference that Mr. Lazerus overlooked.
:clap:
Holy cow! '72 and zville are in agreement about something. What's going on?
Quote from: valpofan56 on December 09, 2011, 07:55:53 PM
Quote from: zvillehaze on December 09, 2011, 05:44:21 PM
Quote from: vu72 on December 09, 2011, 05:25:11 PM
So we get to the NCAAs via the Horizon and not an At-Large bid. So, do these losses mean anything? Of course they do--in seeding. If we have several losses to the IPFWs of the world the Horizon title will seem like a fluke and we get?? A 14 or 15 and almost certain death in the first round. Win all those games we are suppose to and then? Maybe a 10. Huge difference that Mr. Lazerus overlooked.
:clap:
Holy cow! '72 and zville are in agreement about something. What's going on?
Are the temperatures where 72 and zville live below 10 degrees above zero?
I think those that suggest this game meant nothing aren't seeing the big picture here. Would the W have been that season changing? No. Was the loss a season changer? Could be, for the better I hope. To tag that game as a "fluke" win for IPFW, is to cheat them out of the cudo's they deserve for coming to play, and to give us far more credit then we deserve in a lossing cause. The coaching staff has a great opportunity to look at this game, and impress upon their players, that you can't take any opponent lightly, and they'd better be giving 100% each and every time they hit the floor. Did they shoot lights out? Sure, but we allowed them to. Our D was less then average that evening. Something we need to work on. That game revealed some things we'd better be working on, or a future opponent could take a look at film and exploit the same weaknesses. That's all I'll say about that. I happen to be in the minority on this it seems, but I feel the L meant more to our program then the W would have, IF we react to it as we should.
I guess I'm old school but, every game means something.
Once again. Nobody is saying it means *nothing*. We're saying it's not the end of the world.
You need a high profile *win* to get an at-large bid. Unless I've missed something, there aren't any of those left on our schedule, and there weren't any left when we went to Ft. Wayne.
Of course it could affect seeding in the Big Dance. I'm far more concerned about making the Big Dance in the first place. A seldom used tiebreaker (RPI) could make a difference in seeding in the HL tournament. It has hovered in the air in late February before, but has never actually been used since Valpo joined the conference (unless it actually was used last year -- I know it was out there right to the end).
Comment like:
"These games don't matter" are what I'm refering to. I'm surprised anyone is talking about NCAA tournament seeding right now. EVERY team is an injury or two from even getting an invite. It should be a goal of every team to get to the big dance, but talking about seeding, even in the conference tourney, in my opinion, is far too premature, and counterproductive. Let's get better, learn from our losses, and give 100% every time we hit the floor, and the other things will take care of themselves.
A couple of comments: First, I love 'haze !! He is one of the few Butler guys who actually look at the bigger picture. Second, Playing at the D1 level means all teams start out thinking about dancing. We can't operate on the theory that well, we may start out well but certainly something will happen, injury wise or other, that will kill our chances. Premature perhaps, but, nonetheless, something that can continue to motivate or something deemed so far from reality that teams just mail it in.
Finally, as to the temp where Haze and I reside, I can assure you that it is "colder than a brass toilet in the Yukon", here this morning. Oh to be southeast in Valpo!! ;D
It was a balmy 19 degrees in Valpo this morning.
Quote from: FWalum on December 09, 2011, 01:56:19 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on December 09, 2011, 01:29:04 PM
At this time, for this season, at this stage...Lazerus is right. These games don't matter because they don't get you any closer to the NCAA tournament. In the end, getting to the NCAA's is all that matters. 20 wins? Nice, but big deal. Regular season champs? Yawn. The only reason the conference season matters is to get a better seed to the automatic qualifier, and...you guessed it...a better shot at the NCAA's.
The reality is, Valpo isn't getting an at large bid, and unless they managed to beat Ohio State or Arizona they weren't getting an at large bid anyway. Well, if they went undefeated the rest of the way they might but the likelyhood of that was nil.
Without saying it, Lazerus told us what many people already think...The NCAA tournament is the only thing that really matters in college basketball.
Intellectually I agree with you, but having that kind of attitude in sports IMHO is a killer.
I completely agree with you as well. As somebody looking on from the outside, we can think that way. The team however need to have a different approach. Every win matters...in a game, in practice, in the gym by yourself working on drills. No doubt about that. I hope the team goes into the Horizon League tournament feeling they're going to win every game, regardless of seeding. Everyone can be beaten and everyone can beat you!
That being said, from the outside we can look at it from a more realistic perspective
Quote from: milanmiracle on December 10, 2011, 01:37:23 PM
Quote from: FWalum on December 09, 2011, 01:56:19 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on December 09, 2011, 01:29:04 PM
At this time, for this season, at this stage...Lazerus is right. These games don't matter because they don't get you any closer to the NCAA tournament. In the end, getting to the NCAA's is all that matters. 20 wins? Nice, but big deal. Regular season champs? Yawn. The only reason the conference season matters is to get a better seed to the automatic qualifier, and...you guessed it...a better shot at the NCAA's.
The reality is, Valpo isn't getting an at large bid, and unless they managed to beat Ohio State or Arizona they weren't getting an at large bid anyway. Well, if they went undefeated the rest of the way they might but the likelyhood of that was nil.
Without saying it, Lazerus told us what many people already think...The NCAA tournament is the only thing that really matters in college basketball.
Intellectually I agree with you, but having that kind of attitude in sports IMHO is a killer.
I completely agree with you as well. As somebody looking on from the outside, we can think that way. The team however need to have a different approach. Every win matters...in a game, in practice, in the gym by yourself working on drills. No doubt about that. I hope the team goes into the Horizon League tournament feeling they're going to win every game, regardless of seeding. Everyone can be beaten and everyone can beat you!
That being said, from the outside we can look at it from a more realistic perspective
I understand your perspective. I guess I have too much time on the bench and need to make myself look at things from outside of the huddle.
Quote from: vu72 on December 10, 2011, 10:09:54 AM
A couple of comments: First, I love 'haze !! He is one of the few Butler guys who actually look at the bigger picture.
Thanks '72 ... love you too, and good luck in kicking the crap out of the big "c". I may have disagreed with your opinions in the past, but have always respected your love and support of your school. I love and support my school, but growing up as a Lutheran near Valpo, will always have a soft spot for the Crusaders.
I had a feeling something about this IPFW loss was going to come along and bite us in the butt later. IPFW played the lowly Chicago St. Cougars of the Great West Conference of Misfit Basketball Programs, and LOST, 63-57. IPFW allowed Chicago St. to win their 3rd game of the season tonight. Originally, we all thought when the Summit League would start to beat itself up, we'd get hurt by the three SL losses, but when a Summit team loses to a Great West team, which is like the Mid-Con of Geographical Problems, hence the title I gave it above, we pay the price harshly in RPI. I do like playing IPFW, as it can be a good attendance draw for both teams' alumnae bases, but when it comes to the RPI, and needing to play some different teams next year, I hope either we play IPFW, and have all of our puzzle pieces for next year's lineup in place, or we don't play IPFW for a few years. This IPFW loss for us hurts more now.
It's nice to see the Horizon has inched closer to the Summit in RPI with some of their recent losses. This one will definitely allow the HL to pass them again in this area, and hopefully hold on for the home stretch!
I can't wait for the day when the majority of people realize that who you win or lose to, at best negligibly affects your RPI; that the thing that matters is the number of home/road wins/losses. You could flip-flop the Milwaukee win and the IPFW loss and our RPI would be about the same.
When the NCAA decides to quit using RPI and SOS as the basis for at-large bids to the tournament, then people won't worry so much about how the wins and losses affect a computer-generated algorithm that puts bad teams and conferences in a better position than a mid-level team in a higher level conference, you will get everyone to stop bickering over details of wins and losses by opponents your team played. In the meantime, whatever postseason tournament we get into, whatever IPFW does, because we lost to them, is going to affect Valpo adversely.
Quote from: vusupporter on February 08, 2012, 12:08:40 AM
I can't wait for the day when the majority of people realize that who you win or lose to, at best negligibly affects your RPI; that the thing that matters is the number of home/road wins/losses. You could flip-flop the Milwaukee win and the IPFW loss and our RPI would be about the same.
Neither one matters quite as much as who you *play*, and how well they do.
Quote from: vusupporter on February 08, 2012, 12:08:40 AMYou could flip-flop the Milwaukee win and the IPFW loss and our RPI would be about the same.
It'd be _exactly_ the same.
Your schedule matters, and your opponents' schedules. Your wins and losses (home and away count differently) matter. And your opponents' wins and losses matter (though not home vs. away). And your opponents' opponents' (though, again, not home vs. away).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratings_Percentage_Index#Basketball_Formula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratings_Percentage_Index#Basketball_Formula)
I suppose it might help mids (or at least hurt the BCS conferences) if the home vs. away differences was applied to the strength of schedule portion. But, it would reduce the boost we get from playing a BCS team.
Does it really matter for Valpo anyway? The only way they are going to get in is by winning the HL tournament. Maybe once they win a couple of league tournaments and an NCAA game maybe that changes.
Quote from: sectionee on February 08, 2012, 05:13:13 PM
Does it really matter for Valpo anyway? The only way they are going to get in is by winning the HL tournament. Maybe once they win a couple of league tournaments and an NCAA game maybe that changes.
It matters *if* we get in -- it matters for what seed we get. Does it matter *much*? Maybe not ;)
It can also be a factor on what postseason tourney we get an invite for, if we don't get the auto bid to the NCAAs.