QuoteTom Smith, the last basketball coach at Valparaiso University whose last name wasn't Drew, politely answered a few questions about VU for a story I did a few years ago about their success.
He didn't give me much.
The message was clear by the end of the conversation: The VU experience, particularly the final years, really weren't a good time for him. Don't call again about that subject.
Smith was worn down by the lack of resources, no recruiting budget, no real arena and no support from the administrators. Yet they were expected to play a real Division I schedule. Apathy drove him back to Missouri to coach. He was beat down by indifference. It was all a bitter memory for him, even years later.
Nothing ever beat Homer Drew down.
When Drew arrived from Bethel in 1988, the Crusaders' Division I basketball history was a vast pit of emptiness, pain and defeat. VU had a combined record of 115-201 since they started Division I play in 1976. They weren't even a local laughing stock. Nobody in the extended community cared enough for that to happen.
Read the full article (http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/5512957-556/hutton-homer-drew-was-too-good-to-be-true.html)
Homer and the team definitely had the support of the administration. There were always a good representation of staff people at the games. I'm really hoping that Bryce and his teams will be able bring the students out to games, without needing to bribe them with pizza. Last year, it was also disappointing seeing the ARC half or over half empty due to the lack of support from the community. I blame this on the students though. People come to the college game to experience the college atmosphere. This is impossible when there are only two dozen students in the student section (bravo to those students who did come out every game). I really hope the students can get excited about the team, games are a lot of fun when that section is filled up!
It is interesting to hear what a bad taste this old coach has in his mouth from his experience at Valpo.
That is a great article, putting some perspective into the Division 1 era at VU. I moved here the year after VU went D1 and quite frankly was shocked at their basketball talent. Good people but not D1 talent. That continued thru the 80's. Tom Smith tried. He recruited locally and got decent talent, but not the kind to put the program into the level of respect.
I have seen the transformation first hand. We began going to VU games regularly (season tix) in 1986. Tom Smith had a front line of 6'4", 6'5" and 6'4" for awhile (Harry Bell, Jim Ford, and ???). Homer's first couple of years were brutal. But, he started getting a little better talent in. He recruited Michigan City, Valpo, and Laporte heavily, bringing in good Duneland Athletic Conference players such as Gipson, Stevens, Beasley, Cavanaugh, then hit the jackpot when Dave Redmon and Casey Schmidt came home.
Homer built this the right way, brick by brick, board by board, seldom slipping or NEVER losing control of the program. I dont know the inside details, but in a town this size, it was always easy to hear rumors.
The Scott Drew era (as chief recruiter) took the program to the next level as the international players rolled in. Yes, Falu was an exception, but he was gone in a hurry. Just as impressive as the results on the floor, were the individual success stories. My sons spent considerable time in the VU gym and there were a number of young men who were great role models and went out of their way to shoot around or talk with young men. I still run into former VU players from time to time and they always ask about my sons.
We were really fortunate to have this man in the community. I will just simply leave it at that for now.
lowposter
Quote from: sectionee on May 23, 2011, 06:58:36 AM
Homer and the team definitely had the support of the administration. There were always a good representation of staff people at the games. I'm really hoping that Bryce and his teams will be able bring the students out to games, without needing to bribe them with pizza. Last year, it was also disappointing seeing the ARC half or over half empty due to the lack of support from the community. I blame this on the students though. People come to the college game to experience the college atmosphere. This is impossible when there are only two dozen students in the student section (bravo to those students who did come out every game). I really hope the students can get excited about the team, games are a lot of fun when that section is filled up!
It is interesting to hear what a bad taste this old coach has in his mouth from his experience at Valpo.
ee, I don't disagree with what you are saying about the student atmosphere in the college game, but I think Valpo's issue is the students having to spend more time proving themselves in the classroom at the price they are paying for their education. With the economy and jobs being as small as they are across the country, some of the kids are pressured to focus more on their grades than being able to go to a basketball game mid-week or Saturday afternoon. Sure, some of the students don't really have that excuse, but they may use the time they could go to a game to work on papers, projects, group sessions, work, whatever might be going on. Once the economy and job markets change again, maybe some of these students can return to enjoying their college experience for more than just gluing their nose to the books/papers/projects/resumes.
A full student section really enhances the feel of the game for those of us who are no longer students. The energy is so much higher when that section is full and the game is much more enjoyable. Blaming the lack of students on the shape of the economy or that they are busy studying (go check the CCLR during a home game, I'd bet it isn't too busy) is a pretty lame excuse in my opinion, but we can go with it.
I'll give the students a pass for games during the week, but Friday and Saturday games? No excuses there.
Duke and Stanford just to name two who have crazy full student sections and still turn out students who excell. You are just making excuses...it's not the academics at VU that keeps students away, it's a lack of interest unless it's an unusual national game. When we had an organized VU Crew (Dan Robertson, Joy Bowker, etc.) leadership, this didn't happen....I think that's where the problem lies more than anything else. Students have to get other students interested....just my opinion...
Quote from: valpo04 on May 23, 2011, 06:45:48 AM
QuoteTom Smith, the last basketball coach at Valparaiso University whose last name wasn't Drew, politely answered a few questions about VU for a story I did a few years ago about their success.
He didn't give me much.
The message was clear by the end of the conversation: The VU experience, particularly the final years, really weren't a good time for him. Don't call again about that subject.
Smith was worn down by the lack of resources, no recruiting budget, no real arena and no support from the administrators. Yet they were expected to play a real Division I schedule. Apathy drove him back to Missouri to coach. He was beat down by indifference. It was all a bitter memory for him, even years later.
Nothing ever beat Homer Drew down.
When Drew arrived from Bethel in 1988, the Crusaders' Division I basketball history was a vast pit of emptiness, pain and defeat. VU had a combined record of 115-201 since they started Division I play in 1976. They weren't even a local laughing stock. Nobody in the extended community cared enough for that to happen.
Read the full article (http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/5512957-556/hutton-homer-drew-was-too-good-to-be-true.html)
Smith wasn't right for VU at the time. He did well in MO, both before and after VU. Smith's experience must not have been too bad - his son finished his senior year under Homer.
Smith also had trouble keeping the good recruits, and trouble getting players to play for his coaching style.
QuoteIt'd be foolish to believe that the Crusaders couldn't one day be as good as Butler. But if Homer taught us one thing over the last 22 years, it's that anything is possible.
Dear Mr. Editor,
You don't connect two sentences that say the same thing with the word "But". We have this other ingenious word in our language for that purpose: "And". "But" is for opposition, as in, "I may not be able to fly to the moon, BUT I sure can see it in the night sky sometimes."
Is the "n't" in "couldn't" a typo, by any chance?
Signed,
English Language Cop.
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 23, 2011, 01:34:15 PM
QuoteIt'd be foolish to believe that the Crusaders couldn't one day be as good as Butler. But if Homer taught us one thing over the last 22 years, it's that anything is possible.
Dear Mr. Editor,
You don't connect two sentences that say the same thing with the word "But". We have this other ingenious word in our language for that purpose: "And". "But" is for opposition, as in, "I may not be able to fly to the moon, BUT I sure can see it in the night sky sometimes."
Is the "n't" in "couldn't" a typo, by any chance?
Signed,
English Language Cop.
???
I had trouble with those sentences as well.
Quote from: rlh on May 23, 2011, 12:15:42 PM
Duke and Stanford just to name two who have crazy full student sections and still turn out students who excell. You are just making excuses...it's not the academics at VU that keeps students away, it's a lack of interest unless it's an unusual national game. When we had an organized VU Crew (Dan Robertson, Joy Bowker, etc.) leadership, this didn't happen....I think that's where the problem lies more than anything else. Students have to get other students interested....just my opinion...
I agree with what you are saying and I'll add this...College basketball IS the NCAA tournament. Valpo hasn't been there in years and because of that the student interest fades. It's fun to hear Dukie V talk about your chances in the dance on ESPN and think...hey, that's us! Finishing 4th in the Horizon and going to a "tournament" nobody's heard of doesn't exactly drum up fan interest. Well, at least not to the marginal or causal fan. In the end I think that's really it. No NCAA's, limited interest. Is that a good thing, or fair? Probably not, but it's also reality.
I can remember going to Notre Dame games at the JACC and pretty much picking where I wanted to sit back in the John McCleod years. They were and average team that didn't really have any NCAA hopes. The place was half full unless they were playing a ranked team, and even then it wasn't full because people knew ND wouldn't win. Try that now that they are perenially in the NCAA's.
Quote from: covufan on May 23, 2011, 01:43:12 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 23, 2011, 01:34:15 PM
QuoteIt'd be foolish to believe that the Crusaders couldn't one day be as good as Butler. But if Homer taught us one thing over the last 22 years, it's that anything is possible.
Dear Mr. Editor,
You don't connect two sentences that say the same thing with the word "But". We have this other ingenious word in our language for that purpose: "And". "But" is for opposition, as in, "I may not be able to fly to the moon, BUT I sure can see it in the night sky sometimes."
Is the "n't" in "couldn't" a typo, by any chance?
Signed,
English Language Cop.
???
I had trouble with those sentences as well.
I hear it a lot on play-by-play broadcasts/ESPN-like sports panel shows (BBTN, College Gameday, etc., NOT PTI or any of that crap that I don't pay attention to)/probably other places too.
I also hear things like, "Joey Votto launches one into the RF seats, and now the Cardinals lead SEVEN to four."
Welcome to my world, where things like this drive me batty. Don't get me going on adverbs...
from a (extremely recent) former student:
i was just as frustrated by the lack of turnout of my fellow students as has been mentioned here. but from the other side of it, i can completely understand why some of them didn't show. and it is exactly the academic pressures (whether they be from family, the classes, or heaped up by students on themselves).
that said, everybody needs a study break, and what i don't get is why they couldn't all coincide their breaks to a 2 1/2 hour window on a thursday night or saturday. (most of these students don't do homework on saturdays anyway - lets not fool ourselves.) ee is exactly right: the students provide the atmosphere that really captures the rest of the crowd and fuels the team. sure, not each of the 4,000 students is a basketball fan, and i know that, but to say that we only have about 30 students that are is absurd. the students need to man up. maybe if they were less concerned with getting tanked every night possible, they could do their homework in a more timely fashion and free up time to support their team. all in all, it makes me wonder about this: are our current students possibly more concerned with the support of their home teams (state schools, schools close to home, etc) than of their own university.
if nursing students with 20 credits or pre-med students or engineering students with full loads can make time to go, then why can't the slack-jawed students scraping by with 14 credits find the time?
/rant.
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 23, 2011, 10:00:01 PM
from a (extremely recent) former student:
i was just as frustrated by the lack of turnout of my fellow students as has been mentioned here. but from the other side of it, i can completely understand why some of them didn't show. and it is exactly the academic pressures (whether they be from family, the classes, or heaped up by students on themselves).
that said, everybody needs a study break, and what i don't get is why they couldn't all coincide their breaks to a 2 1/2 hour window on a thursday night or saturday. (most of these students don't do homework on saturdays anyway - lets not fool ourselves.) ee is exactly right: the students provide the atmosphere that really captures the rest of the crowd and fuels the team. sure, not each of the 4,000 students is a basketball fan, and i know that, but to say that we only have about 30 students that are is absurd. the students need to man up. maybe if they were less concerned with getting tanked every night possible, they could do their homework in a more timely fashion and free up time to support their team. all in all, it makes me wonder about this: are our current students possibly more concerned with the support of their home teams (state schools, schools close to home, etc) than of their own university.
if nursing students with 20 credits or pre-med students or engineering students with full loads can make time to go, then why can't the slack-jawed students scraping by with 14 credits find the time?
/rant.
Not every student can sacrifice the 2.5 hours to go to a game. Thursday nights have traditionally been the CC Symposium night. There are also some labs that meet on Thursday nights, or some kind of required group project night for some departments. Yes, I'll accept the non-sports fans, and don't forget the RAs, desk attendants, and such who have to work while games are going on, and they either can't leave the dorm or get away from the workplace for the game. That takes out a good number of students, especially if they are ones who are having to take off-campus jobs to pay for school or anything like that.
I wonder what fraction of students are serious enough sports fans that a live college basketball game is even attractive? Maybe, once you have a critical mass, you get people coming along to games because it's an exciting atmosphere, or it's the cool thing to do, etc. But, surely first you have to have the sports fans come out. Any guesses as to the number of students in this target population? 500 guys and 100 women?
When I was a student at Valpo, I played in the pep band quite a bit my freshman and maybe sophomore years. So, I saw quite a few games that way. But, otherwise, I wasn't a big enough sports fan to make it a priority. (That came later.) I was probably more likely to go to a movie on a Saturday night, if I had free time. (And, I was too busy with the books to have _lots_ of free time after freshman or maybe sophomore years.) The NCAA tournament was a big enough deal that I did always make it a point to look for the team on TV during spring break. But, this wasn't a big enough push to get me into the ARC very often during the season.
I don't mind, at all, bribing the students with pizza. I think any such kind of motivation is a fine idea if there are funds available. Might be worth adding a dollar to the price of tickets, or cutting the travel budget a little, etc.
This academic argument is nonsense. Students choose not to make time for games. If we were better on a national scale (back to the NCAAs), students would show up.
well, i will find out for myself. but i definitely plan on being there as much as i can.
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 08:53:13 PM
well, i will find out for myself. but i definitely plan on being there as much as i can.
We need more of this kind of attitude from the student body...keep up the spirit! Maybe you can make friends with the guy in the orange shirt
oh, i know he is going to be there.
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
oh, i know he is going to be there.
I hope so...love his passion and fire. I encourage you to act the way he does...in the late 90's, it seemed like there were a hundred "orange shirt guys" in the student section all the time
Unfortunately, I'm a little too old for the student section...I'll be joining the Old Guard in the chairbacks!
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 24, 2011, 09:29:01 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
oh, i know he is going to be there.
I hope so...love his passion and fire. I encourage you to act the way he does...in the late 90's, it seemed like there were a hundred "orange shirt guys" in the student section all the time
Unfortunately, I'm a little too old for the student section...I'll be joining the Old Guard in the chairbacks!
i love his passion, but don't take it quite as far as he has done on a few occassions last season. he's a nice guy, but just gets caught up in it sometimes. an occasional holler at the ref is one thing, but relentlessly slinging profanities (which i've heard about a few times) is uncalled for.
Quote from: valporun on May 23, 2011, 11:41:03 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 23, 2011, 10:00:01 PM
from a (extremely recent) former student:
i was just as frustrated by the lack of turnout of my fellow students as has been mentioned here. but from the other side of it, i can completely understand why some of them didn't show. and it is exactly the academic pressures (whether they be from family, the classes, or heaped up by students on themselves).
that said, everybody needs a study break, and what i don't get is why they couldn't all coincide their breaks to a 2 1/2 hour window on a thursday night or saturday. (most of these students don't do homework on saturdays anyway - lets not fool ourselves.) ee is exactly right: the students provide the atmosphere that really captures the rest of the crowd and fuels the team. sure, not each of the 4,000 students is a basketball fan, and i know that, but to say that we only have about 30 students that are is absurd. the students need to man up. maybe if they were less concerned with getting tanked every night possible, they could do their homework in a more timely fashion and free up time to support their team. all in all, it makes me wonder about this: are our current students possibly more concerned with the support of their home teams (state schools, schools close to home, etc) than of their own university.
if nursing students with 20 credits or pre-med students or engineering students with full loads can make time to go, then why can't the slack-jawed students scraping by with 14 credits find the time?
/rant.
Not every student can sacrifice the 2.5 hours to go to a game. Thursday nights have traditionally been the CC Symposium night. There are also some labs that meet on Thursday nights, or some kind of required group project night for some departments. Yes, I'll accept the non-sports fans, and don't forget the RAs, desk attendants, and such who have to work while games are going on, and they either can't leave the dorm or get away from the workplace for the game. That takes out a good number of students, especially if they are ones who are having to take off-campus jobs to pay for school or anything like that.
those are very valid points. my point though is that they can be worked around. i know students involved in more than one of the activities you listed above who still found time. i was even one of them for most of my time there (including working for reslife and taking evening classes). i know how hard it can be to make time for one game or another. but that's no reason to just give up on going all together. i'm not demanding that all students go to every game, but a little more enthusiasm and school spirit would be nice to see.
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 24, 2011, 10:32:50 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 24, 2011, 09:29:01 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
oh, i know he is going to be there.
I hope so...love his passion and fire. I encourage you to act the way he does...in the late 90's, it seemed like there were a hundred "orange shirt guys" in the student section all the time
Unfortunately, I'm a little too old for the student section...I'll be joining the Old Guard in the chairbacks!
i love his passion, but don't take it quite as far as he has done on a few occassions last season. he's a nice guy, but just gets caught up in it sometimes. an occasional holler at the ref is one thing, but relentlessly slinging profanities (which i've heard about a few times) is uncalled for.
yeah...i recall he was constantly was raising his voice at players and officials alike. i heard a story from a student that he followed an official after a game to berate him further. if that is true, that is most definitely too far. at that point it starts making our fan base look bad, and the students.
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 24, 2011, 10:32:50 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 24, 2011, 09:29:01 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
oh, i know he is going to be there.
I hope so...love his passion and fire. I encourage you to act the way he does...in the late 90's, it seemed like there were a hundred "orange shirt guys" in the student section all the time
Unfortunately, I'm a little too old for the student section...I'll be joining the Old Guard in the chairbacks!
i love his passion, but don't take it quite as far as he has done on a few occassions last season. he's a nice guy, but just gets caught up in it sometimes. an occasional holler at the ref is one thing, but relentlessly slinging profanities (which i've heard about a few times) is uncalled for.
yeah...i recall he was constantly was raising his voice at players and officials alike. i heard a story from a student that he followed an official after a game to berate him further. if that is true, that is most definitely too far. at that point it starts making our fan base look bad, and the students.
i remember the incident you've mentioned. after that one, he was warned by the athletic dept that any further action like that would lead to his being banned from future games. so please, don't go that far. i'd hate to see one less student in the bleachers.
you won't have to warn me twice! good grief. to think we would have an issue like that at valpo just blows me away.
We won't likely be seeing the "guy in the orange shirt" next year. He graduated last week.
Quote from: valpopal on May 24, 2011, 11:14:24 PM
We won't likely be seeing the "guy in the orange shirt" next year. He graduated last week.
:( :( :( :( :( :(
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 24, 2011, 10:52:39 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 24, 2011, 10:32:50 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 24, 2011, 09:29:01 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
oh, i know he is going to be there.
I hope so...love his passion and fire. I encourage you to act the way he does...in the late 90's, it seemed like there were a hundred "orange shirt guys" in the student section all the time
Unfortunately, I'm a little too old for the student section...I'll be joining the Old Guard in the chairbacks!
i love his passion, but don't take it quite as far as he has done on a few occassions last season. he's a nice guy, but just gets caught up in it sometimes. an occasional holler at the ref is one thing, but relentlessly slinging profanities (which i've heard about a few times) is uncalled for.
yeah...i recall he was constantly was raising his voice at players and officials alike. i heard a story from a student that he followed an official after a game to berate him further. if that is true, that is most definitely too far. at that point it starts making our fan base look bad, and the students.
i remember the incident you've mentioned. after that one, he was warned by the athletic dept that any further action like that would lead to his being banned from future games. so please, don't go that far. i'd hate to see one less student in the bleachers.
On the other hand, DMValpo, sometimes you need to make your point...if that means getting banned for a game, maybe it needs to be done. How else will refs ever know that their poor calls aren't appreciated if someone doesn't point it out? I say go for the profanity laced tirade if, and ONLY IF, it is warranted!!!
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 25, 2011, 08:11:27 AM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 24, 2011, 10:52:39 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 24, 2011, 10:32:50 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 24, 2011, 09:29:01 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
oh, i know he is going to be there.
I hope so...love his passion and fire. I encourage you to act the way he does...in the late 90's, it seemed like there were a hundred "orange shirt guys" in the student section all the time
Unfortunately, I'm a little too old for the student section...I'll be joining the Old Guard in the chairbacks!
i love his passion, but don't take it quite as far as he has done on a few occassions last season. he's a nice guy, but just gets caught up in it sometimes. an occasional holler at the ref is one thing, but relentlessly slinging profanities (which i've heard about a few times) is uncalled for.
yeah...i recall he was constantly was raising his voice at players and officials alike. i heard a story from a student that he followed an official after a game to berate him further. if that is true, that is most definitely too far. at that point it starts making our fan base look bad, and the students.
i remember the incident you've mentioned. after that one, he was warned by the athletic dept that any further action like that would lead to his being banned from future games. so please, don't go that far. i'd hate to see one less student in the bleachers.
On the other hand, DMValpo, sometimes you need to make your point...if that means getting banned for a game, maybe it needs to be done. How else will refs ever know that their poor calls aren't appreciated if someone doesn't point it out? I say go for the profanity laced tirade if, and ONLY IF, it is warranted!!!
From the old board... (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=valposports&thread=4615&page=4#42684)
gopanthers33 wrote:
QuoteI think only 2 or 3 of the dozen or so @sshole chants were justified in my opinion.
dcvalpo's response:
QuoteThis is silly. Chants like that are never "justified" and make student sections look ridiculous.
Did you read my post in the off-topic forum?
wow, that is all I can say about that
The occasional chant of "bullsh!t" or the more clever "nuts and bolts we got screwed" or "elevator elevator we got the shaft" have their place in basketball games from high school to college, I think it's part of the fun and a way to express displeasure.
While I was in school at VU I personally hated when the chant to Rock and Roll Part II went from "Hey you suck" to "Hey VU" and from "we're gonna beat the hell out of you" to "v-a-l-p-a-r-a-i-s-o" that was something fun exciting, and lets be honest not any worse than what is heard at every other college game in the country.
In other words, let the kids be kids. Tell them they can't have fun at games and its not wonder that kids that went to high schools where basketball games were fun and exciting don't come to games and sit in the library.
Quote from: valpo04 on May 25, 2011, 08:22:36 AM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 25, 2011, 08:11:27 AM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 24, 2011, 10:52:39 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 24, 2011, 10:32:50 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 24, 2011, 09:29:01 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 24, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
oh, i know he is going to be there.
I hope so...love his passion and fire. I encourage you to act the way he does...in the late 90's, it seemed like there were a hundred "orange shirt guys" in the student section all the time
Unfortunately, I'm a little too old for the student section...I'll be joining the Old Guard in the chairbacks!
i love his passion, but don't take it quite as far as he has done on a few occassions last season. he's a nice guy, but just gets caught up in it sometimes. an occasional holler at the ref is one thing, but relentlessly slinging profanities (which i've heard about a few times) is uncalled for.
yeah...i recall he was constantly was raising his voice at players and officials alike. i heard a story from a student that he followed an official after a game to berate him further. if that is true, that is most definitely too far. at that point it starts making our fan base look bad, and the students.
i remember the incident you've mentioned. after that one, he was warned by the athletic dept that any further action like that would lead to his being banned from future games. so please, don't go that far. i'd hate to see one less student in the bleachers.
On the other hand, DMValpo, sometimes you need to make your point...if that means getting banned for a game, maybe it needs to be done. How else will refs ever know that their poor calls aren't appreciated if someone doesn't point it out? I say go for the profanity laced tirade if, and ONLY IF, it is warranted!!!
From the old board... (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=valposports&thread=4615&page=4#42684)
gopanthers33 wrote:
QuoteI think only 2 or 3 of the dozen or so @sshole chants were justified in my opinion.
dcvalpo's response:
QuoteThis is silly. Chants like that are never "justified" and make student sections look ridiculous.
Excellent work '04.
valpofan56---surely you understand that I have been stirring the pot deliberately. This "investigative work" does not "catch" me doing anything...I have openly admitted to simply being provocative.
I'm sorry valpo04 spent his time researching this to prove a point that doesn't need to be proven.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 25, 2011, 01:35:47 PM
valpofan56---surely you understand that I have been stirring the pot deliberately. This "investigative work" does not "catch" me doing anything...I have openly admitted to simply being provocative.
I'm sorry valpo04 spent his time researching this to prove a point that doesn't need to be proven.
I posted that before I saw that you came clean. Let's get this thread back on one of the tracks it was on before this latest derailment.
While I also would like to see greater attendance and more enthusiastic support from our student body, as some posters have pointed out previously, we also need to be realistic. We have approximately 3,000 undergraduate students, the majority of them traditional age, resident students. If 10 percent of them attend a game, the 300 present looks like poor attendance. If 10 percent of the undergrads at IU, Purdue, even at Northwestern and Ball State, show up everyone thinks it's a great crowd. From looking at the faces in the seats, I'm not sure even Butler gets a lot of students other than those sitting in the Dawg Pound.
10% would be a great improvement over what we see out there most games. 300 students would look and sound pretty good behind that basket.
Listen....all I know is that we used to have the student section full for almost every game, even the Division II and exhibitions....but now we don't. Offer all the excuses you want, but the fact is that obviously interest isn't as high as it was when we were the top program in our old conference. All the other, studies, work, other duties is bull.....I still believe that the disorgranization of the VU Crew has a lot to do with this lack of interest....when Dan or Joy and even Matt Hensley were actively involved students showed up.....
Quote from: rlh on May 25, 2011, 05:33:31 PM
Listen....all I know is that we used to have the student section full for almost every game, even the Division II and exhibitions....but now we don't. Offer all the excuses you want, but the fact is that obviously interest isn't as high as it was when we were the top program in our old conference. All the other, studies, work, other duties is bull.....I still believe that the disorgranization of the VU Crew has a lot to do with this lack of interest....when Dan or Joy and even Matt Hensley were actively involved students showed up.....
You're right on...when I was at VU, I remember hundreds of students traveling to Fort Wayne for the Midcon tourney. I think the biggest factor is success...we had a chance at the NCAA tourney then and it created a different atmosphere around the program. Mediocrity has been a part of our program for a few years and that has changed the attitude of the students.
Quote from: rlh on May 25, 2011, 05:33:31 PM
Listen....all I know is that we used to have the student section full for almost every game, even the Division II and exhibitions....but now we don't. Offer all the excuses you want, but the fact is that obviously interest isn't as high as it was when we were the top program in our old conference. All the other, studies, work, other duties is bull.....I still believe that the disorgranization of the VU Crew has a lot to do with this lack of interest....when Dan or Joy and even Matt Hensley were actively involved students showed up.....
rlh, i notice you are into details. all i can say is that i hope we can start competing for a realistic shot at an ncaa berth soon. i will still thoroughly enjoy being at the games.
Quote from: rlh on May 25, 2011, 05:33:31 PM
Listen....all I know is that we used to have the student section full for almost every game, even the Division II and exhibitions....but now we don't. Offer all the excuses you want, but the fact is that obviously interest isn't as high as it was when we were the top program in our old conference. All the other, studies, work, other duties is bull.....I still believe that the disorgranization of the VU Crew has a lot to do with this lack of interest....when Dan or Joy and even Matt Hensley were actively involved students showed up.....
Let's try and distance ourselves from this creep.
Quote from: valpofan56 on May 25, 2011, 10:18:55 PM
Quote from: rlh on May 25, 2011, 05:33:31 PM
Listen....all I know is that we used to have the student section full for almost every game, even the Division II and exhibitions....but now we don't. Offer all the excuses you want, but the fact is that obviously interest isn't as high as it was when we were the top program in our old conference. All the other, studies, work, other duties is bull.....I still believe that the disorgranization of the VU Crew has a lot to do with this lack of interest....when Dan or Joy and even Matt Hensley were actively involved students showed up.....
Let's try and distance ourselves from this creep.
...is that the kid in the orange shirt?
No, not even close.
Hensley convicted on all counts (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/article_32fca354-2a3d-57fd-a74d-ce74aeed088d.html?mode=story)
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on May 25, 2011, 10:36:49 PM
Quote from: valpofan56 on May 25, 2011, 10:18:55 PM
Quote from: rlh on May 25, 2011, 05:33:31 PM
Listen....all I know is that we used to have the student section full for almost every game, even the Division II and exhibitions....but now we don't. Offer all the excuses you want, but the fact is that obviously interest isn't as high as it was when we were the top program in our old conference. All the other, studies, work, other duties is bull.....I still believe that the disorgranization of the VU Crew has a lot to do with this lack of interest....when Dan or Joy and even Matt Hensley were actively involved students showed up.....
Let's try and distance ourselves from this creep.
...is that the kid in the orange shirt?
Actually, the kid in the orange shirt is a mild-mannered Theology graduate and seminary student.
Quote from: valpofan56 on May 25, 2011, 10:43:08 PM
No, not even close.
Hensley convicted on all counts (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/article_32fca354-2a3d-57fd-a74d-ce74aeed088d.html?mode=story)
Are you kidding me?? This is the kind of guy you cite as a good leader, rlh? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't know about the indiscretions, but I agree...this guy is a complete creep and it is embarrassing for the university to be associated with him.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 26, 2011, 07:58:23 AM
Quote from: valpofan56 on May 25, 2011, 10:43:08 PM
No, not even close.
Hensley convicted on all counts (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/article_32fca354-2a3d-57fd-a74d-ce74aeed088d.html?mode=story)
Are you kidding me?? This is the kind of guy you cite as a good leader, rlh? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't know about the indiscretions, but I agree...this guy is a complete creep and it is embarrassing for the university to be associated with him.
I am going to defend rlh here, since he wrote "even Matt," which indicates an acknowledgment of the taint associated with the individual while stating the fact that even he did do a good job organizing the student section. The stupid and despicable acts that led to Matt's problems--for which he and his family, whom some of us know well, are paying a price--happened after he graduated. Having said that, I agree with Valpofan 56 that we should now distance ourselves.
I totally agree on the acts that got Matt Hensley locked up....and certainly wasn't trying to say anything positive about him....my point is, and was, that when the VU Crew (which is no longer under the new marketing people) was led by students who really cared about the games and student participation, we had students at the games....we need to get the VU Crew back and we need that type of student participation....they are why the ARC was so tough to play in for opponents.
Quote from: rlh on May 26, 2011, 09:31:49 AM
I totally agree on the acts that got Matt Hensley locked up....and certainly wasn't trying to say anything positive about him....my point is, and was, that when the VU Crew (which is no longer under the new marketing people) was led by students who really cared about the games and student participation, we had students at the games....we need to get the VU Crew back and we need that type of student participation....they are why the ARC was so tough to play in for opponents.
Not totally clear here...was the Valparaizone under the new marketing group in terms of organizing students? And, if so, when did it change to no longer be under their control? This sounds like a change for the better...but we really need a motivated student or two to take charge or it won't matter.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 26, 2011, 10:02:58 AM
Quote from: rlh on May 26, 2011, 09:31:49 AM
I totally agree on the acts that got Matt Hensley locked up....and certainly wasn't trying to say anything positive about him....my point is, and was, that when the VU Crew (which is no longer under the new marketing people) was led by students who really cared about the games and student participation, we had students at the games....we need to get the VU Crew back and we need that type of student participation....they are why the ARC was so tough to play in for opponents.
Not totally clear here...was the Valparaizone under the new marketing group in terms of organizing students? And, if so, when did it change to no longer be under their control? This sounds like a change for the better...but we really need a motivated student or two to take charge or it won't matter.
As I understand it, the Valparaizone is just a play on words and has no organized leadership as the Paint Crew does at Purdue, etc. The VU Crew is no longer, not sure why it was done away with, but maybe lack of student leadership. I guess I wasn't very clear in my explanation. Also, someone closer to that situation may have a better explaination than I.
Quote from: valpo04 on May 25, 2011, 02:51:30 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 25, 2011, 01:35:47 PM
valpofan56---surely you understand that I have been stirring the pot deliberately. This "investigative work" does not "catch" me doing anything...I have openly admitted to simply being provocative.
I'm sorry valpo04 spent his time researching this to prove a point that doesn't need to be proven.
I posted that before I saw that you came clean. Let's get this thread back on one of the tracks it was on before this latest derailment.
So, is this the wrong place to apologize for going too far in putting the best construction on things, when he really was just being a troll? ;)
Quote from: agibson on May 26, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
Quote from: valpo04 on May 25, 2011, 02:51:30 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 25, 2011, 01:35:47 PM
valpofan56---surely you understand that I have been stirring the pot deliberately. This "investigative work" does not "catch" me doing anything...I have openly admitted to simply being provocative.
I'm sorry valpo04 spent his time researching this to prove a point that doesn't need to be proven.
I posted that before I saw that you came clean. Let's get this thread back on one of the tracks it was on before this latest derailment.
So, is this the wrong place to apologize for going too far in putting the best construction on things, when he really was just being a troll? ;)
Apology accepted, I think? :)
Er, something like that.
But, yeah, back to the base note. Students should take advantage of quality D1 entertainment options in their backyard. And, Homer was something else!
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 26, 2011, 10:02:58 AM
Quote from: rlh on May 26, 2011, 09:31:49 AM
I totally agree on the acts that got Matt Hensley locked up....and certainly wasn't trying to say anything positive about him....my point is, and was, that when the VU Crew (which is no longer under the new marketing people) was led by students who really cared about the games and student participation, we had students at the games....we need to get the VU Crew back and we need that type of student participation....they are why the ARC was so tough to play in for opponents.
Not totally clear here...was the Valparaizone under the new marketing group in terms of organizing students? And, if so, when did it change to no longer be under their control? This sounds like a change for the better...but we really need a motivated student or two to take charge or it won't matter.
it's not a change for the better, trust me. there's been a lack of communication on the part of imc to educate the students as to what was going on. there are "student leaders" but they do not do anything compared to what the leadership of the vucru did. they don't organize/lead cheers, get the rest of the students riled up, etc. i had the pleasure of experiencing the vucru in its waning moments as we prepared to depart the mid-con and join the horizon. my freshman and sophomore years, it was great. starting with 08-09 things fell apart as vucru essentially ceased to exist.
as for the guy in the orange shirt, away from the arc, he is a mild-mannered guy. pretty chill. during the game, all bets are off however. you need to have a little more restraint, even when you disagree with what you feel was a blatant missed call.
Quote from: valpo04 on May 23, 2011, 06:45:48 AM
QuoteTom Smith, the last basketball coach at Valparaiso University whose last name wasn't Drew, politely answered a few questions about VU for a story I did a few years ago about their success.
He didn't give me much.
The message was clear by the end of the conversation: The VU experience, particularly the final years, really weren't a good time for him. Don't call again about that subject.
Smith was worn down by the lack of resources, no recruiting budget, no real arena and no support from the administrators. Yet they were expected to play a real Division I schedule. Apathy drove him back to Missouri to coach. He was beat down by indifference. It was all a bitter memory for him, even years later.
Nothing ever beat Homer Drew down.
When Drew arrived from Bethel in 1988, the Crusaders' Division I basketball history was a vast pit of emptiness, pain and defeat. VU had a combined record of 115-201 since they started Division I play in 1976. They weren't even a local laughing stock. Nobody in the extended community cared enough for that to happen.
Read the full article (http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/5512957-556/hutton-homer-drew-was-too-good-to-be-true.html)
Back to the OP in this thread...
I really enjoyed reading this article. Good stuff by Mike Hutton. A couple of points though:
1) Tom Smith was more closely aligned with VU's D-I transitional years than Homer Drew. To state that Homer Drew was given the same box of circumstances as Tom Smith is a bit of a stretch for that reason. Tom Smith bore more of the brunt of the transition IMO, so I do not believe the circumstances between the two are entirely equal.
2) I have a ton of respect for Homer Drew. I give Homer Drew an inordinate amount of credit for sticking around VU with very limited resources and even less administrative support for the basketball program. He is the coach that put VU on the map, no question. However, at the same time, I think the article is a bit naïve in that it was only the university that benefited from the relationship. While Valpo was certainly fortunate enough to have a guy like Homer Drew take over the program in the late 80's, in my mind Coach Drew was also fortunate enough to have Valpo in one main respect: back then, the University never measured athletic success by wins or losses. In many respects, that mindset was too good to be true as well since head coaches are generally defined by such statistics. I mean lets face it, just about any D-I coach who is 13-66 over three years is probably going to be let go, but that didn't happen in the early 90's because of that mentality. That mentality kept Homer Drew here, and then what blossomed after the old Mid Con broke up in 1994 they say is history. I think in some respects both the school and the coach were somewhat fortunate to have each other particularly early on, at least more so than the article portrayed.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 27, 2011, 09:43:45 AM
Quote from: valpo04 on May 23, 2011, 06:45:48 AM
QuoteTom Smith, the last basketball coach at Valparaiso University whose last name wasn't Drew, politely answered a few questions about VU for a story I did a few years ago about their success.
He didn't give me much.
The message was clear by the end of the conversation: The VU experience, particularly the final years, really weren't a good time for him. Don't call again about that subject.
Smith was worn down by the lack of resources, no recruiting budget, no real arena and no support from the administrators. Yet they were expected to play a real Division I schedule. Apathy drove him back to Missouri to coach. He was beat down by indifference. It was all a bitter memory for him, even years later.
Nothing ever beat Homer Drew down.
When Drew arrived from Bethel in 1988, the Crusaders' Division I basketball history was a vast pit of emptiness, pain and defeat. VU had a combined record of 115-201 since they started Division I play in 1976. They weren't even a local laughing stock. Nobody in the extended community cared enough for that to happen.
Read the full article (http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/5512957-556/hutton-homer-drew-was-too-good-to-be-true.html)
Back to the OP in this thread...
I really enjoyed reading this article. Good stuff by Mike Hutton. A couple of points though:
1) Tom Smith was more closely aligned with VU's D-I transitional years than Homer Drew. To state that Homer Drew was given the same box of circumstances as Tom Smith is a bit of a stretch for that reason. Tom Smith bore more of the brunt of the transition IMO, so I do not believe the circumstances between the two are entirely equal.
2) I have a ton of respect for Homer Drew. I give Homer Drew an inordinate amount of credit for sticking around VU with very limited resources and even less administrative support for the basketball program. He is the coach that put VU on the map, no question. However, at the same time, I think the article is a bit naïve in that it was only the university that benefited from the relationship. While Valpo was certainly fortunate enough to have a guy like Homer Drew take over the program in the late 80's, in my mind Coach Drew was also fortunate enough to have Valpo in one main respect: back then, the University never measured athletic success by wins or losses. In many respects, that mindset was too good to be true as well since head coaches are generally defined by such statistics. I mean lets face it, just about any D-I coach who is 13-66 over three years is probably going to be let go, but that didn't happen in the early 90's because of that mentality. That mentality kept Homer Drew here, and then what blossomed after the old Mid Con broke up in 1994 they say is history. I think in some respects both the school and the coach were somewhat fortunate to have each other particularly early on, at least more so than the article portrayed.
I think you're right about the early years, but the longer time has gone on the more the pendulum has swung in favor of Homer doing more for the university than vice versa. We were kept from moving to a better conference years longer than we should have by an A.D. with misplaced allegiances, and to this day we suffer from administrative leadership that thinks we can have our cake and eat it too with woefully inferior facilities. At the end of the day, all the credit for Homer's career accomplishments belongs to Homer himself.
Quote from: wh on May 27, 2011, 04:28:16 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 27, 2011, 09:43:45 AM
Quote from: valpo04 on May 23, 2011, 06:45:48 AM
QuoteTom Smith, the last basketball coach at Valparaiso University whose last name wasn't Drew, politely answered a few questions about VU for a story I did a few years ago about their success.
He didn't give me much.
The message was clear by the end of the conversation: The VU experience, particularly the final years, really weren't a good time for him. Don't call again about that subject.
Smith was worn down by the lack of resources, no recruiting budget, no real arena and no support from the administrators. Yet they were expected to play a real Division I schedule. Apathy drove him back to Missouri to coach. He was beat down by indifference. It was all a bitter memory for him, even years later.
Nothing ever beat Homer Drew down.
When Drew arrived from Bethel in 1988, the Crusaders' Division I basketball history was a vast pit of emptiness, pain and defeat. VU had a combined record of 115-201 since they started Division I play in 1976. They weren't even a local laughing stock. Nobody in the extended community cared enough for that to happen.
Read the full article (http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/5512957-556/hutton-homer-drew-was-too-good-to-be-true.html)
Back to the OP in this thread...
I really enjoyed reading this article. Good stuff by Mike Hutton. A couple of points though:
1) Tom Smith was more closely aligned with VU's D-I transitional years than Homer Drew. To state that Homer Drew was given the same box of circumstances as Tom Smith is a bit of a stretch for that reason. Tom Smith bore more of the brunt of the transition IMO, so I do not believe the circumstances between the two are entirely equal.
2) I have a ton of respect for Homer Drew. I give Homer Drew an inordinate amount of credit for sticking around VU with very limited resources and even less administrative support for the basketball program. He is the coach that put VU on the map, no question. However, at the same time, I think the article is a bit naïve in that it was only the university that benefited from the relationship. While Valpo was certainly fortunate enough to have a guy like Homer Drew take over the program in the late 80's, in my mind Coach Drew was also fortunate enough to have Valpo in one main respect: back then, the University never measured athletic success by wins or losses. In many respects, that mindset was too good to be true as well since head coaches are generally defined by such statistics. I mean lets face it, just about any D-I coach who is 13-66 over three years is probably going to be let go, but that didn't happen in the early 90's because of that mentality. That mentality kept Homer Drew here, and then what blossomed after the old Mid Con broke up in 1994 they say is history. I think in some respects both the school and the coach were somewhat fortunate to have each other particularly early on, at least more so than the article portrayed.
I think you're right about the early years, but the longer time has gone on the more the pendulum has swung in favor of Homer doing more for the university than vice versa. We were kept from moving to a better conference years longer than we should have by an A.D. with misplaced allegiances, and to this day we suffer from administrative leadership that thinks we can have our cake and eat it too with woefully inferior facilities. At the end of the day, all the credit for Homer's career accomplishments belongs to Homer himself.
I think the players may get a bit of credit too ;) But, yes, I pretty much agree completely with you guys. Wonderful, insightful discussion here...thanks for participating!