The Valparaiso Beacons Fan Zone Forum

Following is a chronology of home attendance for the past 20 years, followed by a few random personal thoughts:

Year/Avg/Rank

2014  2833 19
2013  3173 17
2012  3383 14   Worst 5-years
2011  3362 15
2010  2739 20

2009  2973 18
2008  3666 10
2007  3520 12    2nd worst 5-years
2006  3353 16
2005  4174   5

2004  3945   7
2003  4376   2
2002  4530   1     Best 5-years
2001  4327   3
2000  4039   6

1999  4327   3
1998  3861   9
1997  3625  11     2nd best 5-years
1996  3886   8
1995  3446 13

Thoughts:
* Being honest, our move to the HL has been a complete bust in terms of impact on attendance (even with some big Butler games thrown in)
* Our attendance swan dive over the past 5 years has come at the same time we won 2 conf. championships and a conf. tournament championship and have been in the Top Tier throughout.
* I believe this is a completely accurate statement that the cost of season tickets has MORE than doubled since 2000. I know this has chased a lot of people away.

I am VERY interested in what others have to say about this...

These are very interesting numbers. I think you're missing one HUGE element that can't be overlooked. Technology has really taken over our lives in the last 10 years. Facebook first made the jump to full status around 2006/07 and there you see a decline in attendance. Twitter became widespread in 2009 and you see another big drop there. I'm not saying it is the main reason for the decline but it is hard to get fans to unplug themselves for three hours. That's my $0.02.

You need to go back to 1991 :p

Attendance was 2031 per game. There's a lot of factors that determine attendance, but the undeniable two biggest factors are: 1. How you did last season. 2. How you're doing this season. It should be no surprise that the biggest attendance period came when the team made the postseason in 8 of 9 years (plus the season after). Its not a surprise that Valpo opened last year with the biggest out of state OOC attendance figure since MO State bracketbuster on ESPN2. If Valpo had some sustained success, attendance would jump right back up to the early 2000s level.

I have quite a bit of data with attendance averages. I don't have all of last year done, but I'll try to complete it and show some of the trends.

I agree with a3uge..start winning regularly year in and year out and the attendance will go up.  I would imagine that over the next 3 years anyway we will see our attendance increase...maybe not alot next year but within the next 3 years.  I wonder if an upgraded ARC would help...restrooms, concession stands, lighting, improved seating, etc. would help.  I think it would.

Quote from: Pgmado on September 02, 2014, 11:47:35 AM
These are very interesting numbers. I think you're missing one HUGE element that can't be overlooked. Technology has really taken over our lives in the last 10 years. Facebook first made the jump to full status around 2006/07 and there you see a decline in attendance. Twitter became widespread in 2009 and you see another big drop there. I'm not saying it is the main reason for the decline but it is hard to get fans to unplug themselves for three hours. That's my $0.02.

Paul,
Average attendance across all of D-1 fell only 6% from 2000-2014, while Valpo's attendance for the same period fell a staggering 30%.  So, while "technology" may play some part in our decline, Valpo's attendance problem has to be much broader than that.

NCAA D-1 Avg. Attendance
2000 5123
2014 4817
Change -6.0%

Valpo Avg. Attendance
2000 4039 (last year we averaged > 4000)
2014 2833
Change -30%

Each of you is missing the largest factor in the best 5 year period of attendance: I was attending the school ALL 5 years.  The evidence suggests that once I graduated, attendance fell off quite considerably.  I apologize to our basketball program for needing to come back to DFW ;D

I'm sure being able to view games for free online has something to do with the drop in attendance.

Anyone come across any stats on college profits/losses on online subscription broadcasts?  WIU charges (though their broadcasting stinks). I look at VU as a national university, and with such a far-flug alumni base, promoting subscription online broadcasting might be profitable if it is marketed well and if there is more than just sports (e.g., concerts, distinguished lecturers, live on-campus events) included in the package.  Just wondering cuz I'd be willing to pay a yearly subscription if the quality and diversity of programming were there.

Quote from: valpotx on September 02, 2014, 05:11:01 PM
Each of you is missing the largest factor in the best 5 year period of attendance: I was attending the school ALL 5 years.  The evidence suggests that once I graduated, attendance fell off quite considerably.  I apologize to our basketball program for needing to come back to DFW ;D

I don't know how active you were in supporting men's basketball as a student, but I distinctly recall packed, rowdy student sections in those days, whether we were playing ORU, Chicago State or anyone in-between.  I remember students parading signs in front of the visitor's bench, like "0-13" at an Oakland game, "Chicago is not a state," etc., etc.  Some of the cheers were less than prim and proper, shall we say  ;). If an opponent dare show up with a cheering section, the student section was all over them with taunts.  Opposing players were taunted, as well.  There were great halftime shows like the Jessie White Tumblers, etc. And - I'm not positive about this, but wasn't a car awarded as a student attendance incentive?  I seem to remember one on display in front of the ARC entrance area with "win this car" signs on it, or something to that effect.

This has been suggested before by other posters, but the Athletic Department should invite some of the student leaders from the past back for a brainstorming session on how to engage students.     

Quote from: valpotx on September 02, 2014, 05:11:01 PM
Each of you is missing the largest factor in the best 5 year period of attendance: I was attending the school ALL 5 years.  The evidence suggests that once I graduated, attendance fell off quite considerably.  I apologize to our basketball program for needing to come back to DFW ;D

The key here is that due to much lower attendance at baseball games there was going to be a dramatic rise in attendance at MBB games which was directly attributable to valpotx.  ;D  ;D

Quote from: VULB#62 on September 02, 2014, 06:22:48 PM
And with such a far-flug alumni base,

I believe the word is Fahrvergnügen. It means "driving enjoyment" in German. It was used by Volkswagen in one of it's US car ads. Nice try.

Not sure how much of an impact it has, but I know that several groups get together and watch the live stream on these games now rather than attend them all. It probably happens more than you think.

In looking at this 20-year history more closely, what I find most disturbing is the period from 2009 forward.  In 2009 we had a terrible team with a losing record, key players who had left the program, and a troublemaker sowing discord.  As would be expected, attendance that year fell to its lowest level in 15 years.  What I would not have expected is that despite dramatically improved W/L records since then (including 1st place finishes, exciting players and an NCAA appearance) attendance in 2014 was 5% lower than 2009.

When a quality basketball program on the rise doesn't generate more interest and support, you have a problem.  When a quality basketball program on the rise continues to lose interest and support, you have a MAJOR problem.


     

Quote from: valpo4life on September 02, 2014, 05:38:09 PM
I'm sure being able to view games for free online has something to do with the drop in attendance.

Anyone geeked up enough about Valpo basketball to the point where they're watching a grainy Horizon League online steam is probably going to go to more home games than the fans that don't watch any games online. The streams are a great way to keep alumni interested and are great for students when the team is on the road.

I found that the streams are pretty good actually, on the home games I couldn't attend. To be honest, on several occasions I chose to stay in and watch the stream. If it wasn't available, I would have most likely headed to watch it live. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Again, I don't if it's enough to affect the numbers. With the stats that are listed, it would be interesting to incoporate the year that the streams were available.   

Even more accurate would be the ability to see the online "attendance".

I agree it's a problem; but when even Alabama and Michigan football are trying to combat the issue, it's as much societal shift as that of our particular fan base.

I agree with all the comments about attendance being eroded by all the competition through online viewing, television, etc. plus the impact of bad weather.  Without a doubt this has caused some of our attendance drop.  I believe there also are more night classes than there were 12-15 years ago.  It also is a fact that attendance totals are more accurately estimated now than they were in the past because of the bar-code readers on tickets, sign-in for the student section, etc.  Previously a person facing the chair-back section would practically pull a number out of the air to use as the announced attendance with no clear picture of how full the upper mezzanine might be.  It's also easier to "track" student attendance now with the bleachers at the end of the floor than when students were more scattered among the crowd.  Of course, as has been posted here numerous times, the enthusiasm and energy transmitted by the crowd is more important than numbers.

(http://i.imgur.com/nti1w8R.png)

Ok, now let's look at another factor not considered. Who is the one counting the attendance? If you think that attendance figures are (or at least were) based on the actual amount of tickets sold or people passing through the turnstiles than you are being naive. It's essentially impossible to count the amount of people at a game. Students attend for free and without tickets. When I was a student (1999-2002) we'd often joke about the inflated attendance numbers that the Valpo SID staff would attach to each game. The current SID staff is considerably more realistic when it comes to the number of people attending the games. There has been a drop off over the years, I'm not disagreeing with that, but it's not nearly as big of a number as the stats would indicate. The attendance figures from at least the Lubos Barton era were almost always exaggerated.

'it's not the people that vote who count, it's the people who count the votes!'

Quote from: a3uge on September 03, 2014, 11:05:54 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/nti1w8R.png)

Love the chart!  Great information!

Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on September 03, 2014, 02:55:59 PM
'it's not the people that vote who count, it's the people who count the votes!'

Only someone living in Chicago or Florida would truly understand this. Right Chad?

Lower attendance has nothing to do with online streaming.  If anything it would help fan base by allowing fans to follow the team on away games.  Our target market for fans will not be those who will are inclined to stream home games.  It all comes down to product, price and perceived value.

I do think Valpo basketball is a great product.  However it is marketed HORRIBLY.  A few signs on rt 30 doesn't cut it.  The university missed the boat on this years ago and it has gotten worse. 

Price is an issue.  Of the 15 homes games there are usually 3-4 cupcake games against non D1.  368.75 for chairback season tickets is steep in my eyes for the quality of opponents that come to play at the ARC.  Also, no way the side sections of the chairbacks should be priced the same as the middle 3 sections.  I think the lower lever bleachers season tickets are a good value but any guy over 6 foot and 185 lbs needs practically two seats to sit in that section.  Upper bleachers should be right at 5 bucks per game and 10 for quality opponents.   I'm still shocked about last years "premium" game against Oakland where an upper bleacher seat was 20 bucks each.  Whoever priced that, and hopefully is reading this, should be embarrassed by the turnout for that game.

Value - I"m not sure a family of 4 or 5 is willing to spend 80-100 bucks to go see a game here.  The ARC needs to be updated bad from the fan and player experience.  How many years have we discussed the poor audio in the ARC?  Need more promotions to get families in the seats. 

I think it is more than the won-loss record:

See the following:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/at-college-football-games-student-sections-likely-to-have-empty-seats-1409188244 (http://online.wsj.com/articles/at-college-football-games-student-sections-likely-to-have-empty-seats-1409188244)

http://chicago.sportsmockery.com/post/8261/my-challenge-for-illini-nation (http://chicago.sportsmockery.com/post/8261/my-challenge-for-illini-nation)

IMHO

1) This generation of students is instant gratification.  i.e. Why should I spend two+ hours at a game, when I can get the highlights later.
2) They are more a "Me" generation than ever before.
3) They may be sick of seeing many athletes (especially pro's) getting away with being morons.
4) I know here in Detroit, there has been a decline in the Catholic grade schools (and their sports) over the past 20 years.  It could be that this generation never played any sport, and therefore has no interest in following any team.

 

Quote from: Pgmado on September 03, 2014, 12:03:55 PM
Ok, now let's look at another factor not considered. Who is the one counting the attendance? If you think that attendance figures are (or at least were) based on the actual amount of tickets sold or people passing through the turnstiles than you are being naive. It's essentially impossible to count the amount of people at a game. Students attend for free and without tickets. When I was a student (1999-2002) we'd often joke about the inflated attendance numbers that the Valpo SID staff would attach to each game. The current SID staff is considerably more realistic when it comes to the number of people attending the games. There has been a drop off over the years, I'm not disagreeing with that, but it's not nearly as big of a number as the stats would indicate. The attendance figures from at least the Lubos Barton era were almost always exaggerated.

I think that you mean 1998-2002, right, or did you transfer in your SO year to be an RA for the BHG?  :)

I imagine that the numbers may have added a few hundred, but just about every game was filled to the top level of the Mezz, even those Chicago State beat-downs. 

Bbtds, what can I say, we had many more women fans in baseball than men, and not many women were college baseball fans ;)

Quote from: Chairback on September 03, 2014, 08:20:49 PM
Lower attendance has nothing to do with online streaming.  If anything it would help fan base by allowing fans to follow the team on away games.  Our target market for fans will not be those who will are inclined to stream home games.  It all comes down to product, price and perceived value.

I do think Valpo basketball is a great product.  However it is marketed HORRIBLY.  A few signs on rt 30 doesn't cut it.  The university missed the boat on this years ago and it has gotten worse. 

Price is an issue.  Of the 15 homes games there are usually 3-4 cupcake games against non D1.  368.75 for chairback season tickets is steep in my eyes for the quality of opponents that come to play at the ARC.  Also, no way the side sections of the chairbacks should be priced the same as the middle 3 sections.  I think the lower lever bleachers season tickets are a good value but any guy over 6 foot and 185 lbs needs practically two seats to sit in that section.  Upper bleachers should be right at 5 bucks per game and 10 for quality opponents.   I'm still shocked about last years "premium" game against Oakland where an upper bleacher seat was 20 bucks each.  Whoever priced that, and hopefully is reading this, should be embarrassed by the turnout for that game.

Value - I"m not sure a family of 4 or 5 is willing to spend 80-100 bucks to go see a game here.  The ARC needs to be updated bad from the fan and player experience.  How many years have we discussed the poor audio in the ARC?  Need more promotions to get families in the seats. 

Finally someone gets it.  It only took 22 posts.

I agree completely with your remarks in general.  As for marketing, there was a time not that long ago when Loyola had more of its basketball games broadcast on Lakeshore Public Television than VU did.  And yet VU was NWI's hometown team?  When you have to compete for a subway alumni base that includes ND, IU and Purdue in your geographical area, and not to mention also compete with all of the high quality high school basketball in this area, you can't let things like this happen if you want to derive interest in your product.  This is particularly important for a school like VU in that its location is geographically awkward to begin with.  It is located in small town Indiana, yet it is part of the Chicagoland/NWI statistical area which is one of the largest in the country. 

You all know my thoughts on our venue.  Why would I want to pay X amount of dollars to watch a basketball game at Valpo when I could get better sight lines at Andrean High School?

And a big lulz to the idea that we drew 2k a game in the very early 90's, like in '91.  Back then, the curtain covered the Mezz most of the time.  You could hear pins drop in the gym during games.  When the curtain was raised, it was actually kind of a big deal.  Looking at the data put up in this thread, it actually frustrates me more that we didn't build on our Sweet 16 run as much as we should have to garner more interest in the program given where our program was in the very early 90's. But, you know how that goes.  A sister school like Butler is in the Big East but around here we're still trying to justify why filling 65% of our high school venue is such a great thing.

The basketball team participated in the Popcorn Festival parade again on Saturday. At the suggestion of Bryce, this time they tossed small souvenir basketballs to many of the kids along the route. I think this kind of promotion, along with other targeting of families with young kids, can be an important focus for marketing. Big discounts for families or youth groups, even offering free tickets to kids under 10 accompanied by an adult, as well as other efforts to make games a family friendly environment are positive ways to add attendance. Funds lost from ticket giveaways can be offset by sales at concession or souvenir stands. Last year, the marketing folks also took a step in the right directions with the return of halftime entertainment for a few of the games. As has been observed on this forum a number of times, the diehard fan base is an older constituency with most attending games going back at least to the Sweet 16 team. Whatever can be done to develop a younger following in the community would be beneficial.

Below is a photo of Vashil waving to fans at the parade. A couple of pictures with other players at the parade, including first glimpses at some of the new players, can be found at the following link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/96208998@N05/sets/72157646887062889/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/96208998@N05/sets/72157646887062889/)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/v6n0b4.jpg)

Quote from: Chairback on September 03, 2014, 08:20:49 PM
Lower attendance has nothing to do with online streaming.

I couldn't disagree more.  It is one of the biggest reasons I argue that the HL should make the HLN a pay site.  The HLN discourages fans from attending games in person by making the broadcasts free and convenient.   Season tickets at most schools cost hundreds of dollars per seat, plus the cost of parking at many of our venues, travel expense, and money you are going to spend at the concession stands.  Many fans of opposing teams no longer travel to HL venues because we offer them a free broadcast of the games.  If it was 10 years ago I would be preparing to make about 15 road trips for this season to watch my team play.  I used to travel to all HL away games and many of our OOC games that were appealing to me.  I rarely travel to more than 2-3 games at other HL venues a year anymore because it just isn't worth all of the travel and costs when I can just stay home and watch my team play on the road on TV.  Last year, my team played 5-6 OOC games where they offered their games online for a fee.  I paid between $5.99 and $9.99 a piece to see my team play those games and never batted an eyelash doing so.  It was much more inexpensive than traveling to those away games.   It's a joke we allow fans of other teams to watch HL broadcasts without getting any compensation for it.  We make it way too easy for opponent's fans to stay home, but it can even be tempting to our own fans.  Parents with young kids and seniors in particular don't want to deal with the travel, parking, walking up and down all of those stairs in our arenas in the dead of winter when they can easily watch our games at home.  We lose twice when we broadcast games for free.  We lose the revenue from having that fan attend the game in person and we also lose the revenue we could have made by charging him to watch the game online.  There aren't many businesses out there that give away their product for free. 

Quote from: Big D on September 07, 2014, 10:29:47 PM

Quote from: Chairback on September 03, 2014, 08:20:49 PM
Lower attendance has nothing to do with online streaming.

I couldn't disagree more.  It is one of the biggest reasons I argue that the HL should make the HLN a pay site.  The HLN discourages fans from attending games in person by making the broadcasts free and convenient.   Season tickets at most schools cost hundreds of dollars per seat, plus the cost of parking at many of our venues, travel expense, and money you are going to spend at the concession stands.  Many fans of opposing teams no longer travel to HL venues because we offer them a free broadcast of the games.  If it was 10 years ago I would be preparing to make about 15 road trips for this season to watch my team play.  I used to travel to all HL away games and many of our OOC games that were appealing to me.  I rarely travel to more than 2-3 games at other HL venues a year anymore because it just isn't worth all of the travel and costs when I can just stay home and watch my team play on the road on TV.  Last year, my team played 5-6 OOC games where they offered their games online for a fee.  I paid between $5.99 and $9.99 a piece to see my team play those games and never batted an eyelash doing so.  It was much more inexpensive than traveling to those away games.   It's a joke we allow fans of other teams to watch HL broadcasts without getting any compensation for it.  We make it way too easy for opponent's fans to stay home, but it can even be tempting to our own fans.  Parents with young kids and seniors in particular don't want to deal with the travel, parking, walking up and down all of those stairs in our arenas in the dead of winter when they can easily watch our games at home.  We lose twice when we broadcast games for free.  We lose the revenue from having that fan attend the game in person and we also lose the revenue we could have made by charging him to watch the game online.  There aren't many businesses out there that give away their product for free.

Thinking that there's hundreds of people that are now staying home from every game now that there's online streaming is irrational. I doubt there were hundreds of fans that previously traveled 4+ hours for games that are now watching from their laptops. Maybe 1, 2 fans per team fit this criteria? I bet the HL Net streams have under a hundred viewers per game. Super fans that travel and watch streams are a small fraction of attendees. Again, fans that care enough to watch some obscure online stream on their laptops are probably the ones going to the most games. Fans that watch away games on a laptop are probably more likely to be into the team and attend home games than fans that maybe check out on ESPN how the team did every once in awhile.

Also the statement "There aren't many businesses out there that give away their product for free" is kind of silly. The internet is full of streams and videos from non subscription-based sites.

As I have said before, I would gladly pay a few $ to watch Valpo sports on a yearly subscription.  They just need to get the capability to do so on the baseball field, but even without that, I have no issues signing up.  Like Big D, I have paid $6 to watch some of our games on crappier networks

Not that I've put a lot of thought into this, but is there anything to lose by making the HLN a pay site?  I would like to think that true followers of the 9 programs (especially alumni, family and friends of players, etc. living outside the area) would gladly pay a nominal fee for the privilege of watching live broadcasts.  For those who would say, 'if I have to pay, I won't watch,' so what?  It's like asking your adult child living in your basement to help pay a little toward the rent and food, and they reply, 'if you make me pay something, I'm gonna move out.'  Good luck to you, son. 

The HL probably made a mistake by not charging from the get-go.  True fans would have gladly paid a nominal fee for first time access to live broadcasts and been grateful for the privilege. Now that they're used to "free," it's a whole different psychology.

Quote from: a3uge on September 07, 2014, 11:11:04 PM
Thinking that there's hundreds of people that are now staying home from every game now that there's online streaming is irrational. I doubt there were hundreds of fans that previously traveled 4+ hours for games that are now watching from their laptops. Maybe 1, 2 fans per team fit this criteria?

You are a fool if you honestly believe 1-2 fans fit that criteria.  I used to travel regularly to all WSU away games and became good friends with other fans that also made those road trips regularly.  Wright State used to arrange 2-3 bus loads of fans for our 2 game road trip to Chicago or into Wisconsin.  We rarely have to charter more than 1 bus now.  Before the HLN, UWM used to bring a couple of buses loaded with fans to their game at the Nutter Center.  Now we get a few carloads.  That is just HL fans.  You also have to consider that most HL teams schedule several of their OOC games vs other local D1 teams that also have local alumni.  Their fans are closer to our arenas than most fans of HL opponents and they have stopped attending games too.  You don't think being able to watch the game for free at home has something to do with that?  The number of traveling fans we have lost may not be in the hundreds, but it is a heck of a lot more than 1-2.  Even if the number is a little more than 100.  Multiple that by the number of home games you play each year by the average cost of your tickets.  That is enough money to buy a game vs a D1 team each year instead of a NAIA/D2 team.   Add in the loss of revenue of your own fan base that comes to watch the games online instead of in person and we are probably leaving enough money on the table to completely eliminate playing NAIA/D2 teams.

Quote from: a3uge on September 07, 2014, 11:11:04 PMI bet the HL Net streams have under a hundred viewers per game.

I don't know what the league wide numbers are, but I do know what Wright State's numbers were for last year.  The average home game streamed to a little over 3000 IP addresses.   WSU had 16 home games last year.  If all of those fans would have paid $5 per broadcast to watch the HLN, we could have added $240,000 in revenue.  Even if only 1/3 of those viewers were willing to pay to see the broadcast, we still would be bringing in $80,000.  Once again, that is enough revenue to help each team pay for better buy games.  It is revenue we could be using on recruiting.  It is money we could be using for advertising.  If nothing else is could be revenue the HL has to cover the cost of running the HLN.  The HL spends a quarter of a million a year to run the HLN. 

Quote from: Big D on September 08, 2014, 10:53:51 AMIf nothing else is could be revenue the HL has to cover the cost of running the HLN.  The HL spends a quarter of a million a year to run the HLN.

I seem to recall that the HL was funding this from their share of the NCAA tournament payouts.  Any decrease in those payouts could force the HL to look at the idea that Big D presented.

Quote from: Big D on September 08, 2014, 10:53:51 AM

Quote from: a3uge on September 07, 2014, 11:11:04 PM
Thinking that there's hundreds of people that are now staying home from every game now that there's online streaming is irrational. I doubt there were hundreds of fans that previously traveled 4+ hours for games that are now watching from their laptops. Maybe 1, 2 fans per team fit this criteria?

You are a fool if you honestly believe 1-2 fans fit that criteria.  I used to travel regularly to all WSU away games and became good friends with other fans that also made those road trips regularly.  Wright State used to arrange 2-3 bus loads of fans for our 2 game road trip to Chicago or into Wisconsin.  We rarely have to charter more than 1 bus now.  Before the HLN, UWM used to bring a couple of buses loaded with fans to their game at the Nutter Center.  Now we get a few carloads.  That is just HL fans.  You also have to consider that most HL teams schedule several of their OOC games vs other local D1 teams that also have local alumni.  Their fans are closer to our arenas than most fans of HL opponents and they have stopped attending games too.  You don't think being able to watch the game for free at home has something to do with that?  The number of traveling fans we have lost may not be in the hundreds, but it is a heck of a lot more than 1-2.  Even if the number is a little more than 100.  Multiple that by the number of home games you play each year by the average cost of your tickets.  That is enough money to buy a game vs a D1 team each year instead of a NAIA/D2 team.   Add in the loss of revenue of your own fan base that comes to watch the games online instead of in person and we are probably leaving enough money on the table to completely eliminate playing NAIA/D2 teams.

Quote from: a3uge on September 07, 2014, 11:11:04 PMI bet the HL Net streams have under a hundred viewers per game.

I don't know what the league wide numbers are, but I do know what Wright State's numbers were for last year.  The average home game streamed to a little over 3000 IP addresses.   WSU had 16 home games last year.  If all of those fans would have paid $5 per broadcast to watch the HLN, we could have added $240,000 in revenue.  Even if only 1/3 of those viewers were willing to pay to see the broadcast, we still would be bringing in $80,000.  Once again, that is enough revenue to help each team pay for better buy games.  It is revenue we could be using on recruiting.  It is money we could be using for advertising.  If nothing else is could be revenue the HL has to cover the cost of running the HLN.  The HL spends a quarter of a million a year to run the HLN. 

The needs and priorities of the marketing and business plans concerning the HLN and conference are much more complicated then what you have outlined above.  Here are just a few additional considerations.

• HLN already receives ad revenue from corporate sponsors. Making the HLN fee based would GREATLY reduce viewership. This is a known fact.
• HLN is one of the best Mid Major Media outlets in the country.  We are the envy of most other Mid Major Networks.  If it is not working the conference will make a change.
• At this level the conference and universities are more interested in exposure rather than the limited revenue it would generate if fee based.  Great for exposure to out of area alumni.  Creating connections and interest is what it is all about.

these are but a few of the things I believe are considered when evaluating the HLN.

The proliferation of online entertainment opportunities has affected everything from local television, newspapers, restaurants and minor league teams.  I seriously doubt that the HLN has any major affect on home game attendance, if anything I feel the ease of accessibility has increased awareness of our teams among alumni and friends.  Giving back to alumni, friends and parents something that in the past has only be available to the BIG universities has more impact and is of higher value to our institutions than I think you take into consideration.

Quote from: Big D on September 08, 2014, 10:53:51 AM

Quote from: a3uge on September 07, 2014, 11:11:04 PM
Thinking that there's hundreds of people that are now staying home from every game now that there's online streaming is irrational. I doubt there were hundreds of fans that previously traveled 4+ hours for games that are now watching from their laptops. Maybe 1, 2 fans per team fit this criteria?

You are a fool if you honestly believe 1-2 fans fit that criteria.  I used to travel regularly to all WSU away games and became good friends with other fans that also made those road trips regularly.  Wright State used to arrange 2-3 bus loads of fans for our 2 game road trip to Chicago or into Wisconsin.  We rarely have to charter more than 1 bus now.  Before the HLN, UWM used to bring a couple of buses loaded with fans to their game at the Nutter Center.  Now we get a few carloads.  That is just HL fans.  You also have to consider that most HL teams schedule several of their OOC games vs other local D1 teams that also have local alumni.  Their fans are closer to our arenas than most fans of HL opponents and they have stopped attending games too.  You don't think being able to watch the game for free at home has something to do with that?  The number of traveling fans we have lost may not be in the hundreds, but it is a heck of a lot more than 1-2.  Even if the number is a little more than 100.  Multiple that by the number of home games you play each year by the average cost of your tickets.  That is enough money to buy a game vs a D1 team each year instead of a NAIA/D2 team.   Add in the loss of revenue of your own fan base that comes to watch the games online instead of in person and we are probably leaving enough money on the table to completely eliminate playing NAIA/D2 teams.

Quote from: a3uge on September 07, 2014, 11:11:04 PMI bet the HL Net streams have under a hundred viewers per game.

I don't know what the league wide numbers are, but I do know what Wright State's numbers were for last year.  The average home game streamed to a little over 3000 IP addresses.   WSU had 16 home games last year.  If all of those fans would have paid $5 per broadcast to watch the HLN, we could have added $240,000 in revenue.  Even if only 1/3 of those viewers were willing to pay to see the broadcast, we still would be bringing in $80,000.  Once again, that is enough revenue to help each team pay for better buy games.  It is revenue we could be using on recruiting.  It is money we could be using for advertising.  If nothing else is could be revenue the HL has to cover the cost of running the HLN.  The HL spends a quarter of a million a year to run the HLN.

You think the Horizon League network would generate $720k to $2.16 million per year if they made it subscription based? If the HL could make millions on this, I'm sure the streams would be paid already. Even if this 3000 viewers per game number is accurate, I find it highly unlikely that a subscription turnover would be 1/3. 1/3 of people getting something for free would pay $80 now? Keep in mind the number of ESPN3 streams offered per year as well. Also, what, the home team collects 100% of the streaming profits each game? Wouldn't the away team's fans comprise most of the viewers? The Horizon would kindly run the service and not take a cut of the subscriptions? And the current ads on the HL net amount to $0? I'm not against the league switching to a subscription service, but to imply that each team would make at least $80,000 in pure profit on live streaming is ridiculous. If they switch to a subscription model, the money would go towards the cost of running the stream, the Horizon League, and then finally to each team, split evenly.

Also, its asinine to suggest that UWM fans aren't going to games now because of online streaming. Don't you think their previous attendance marks have anything to do with them making it to the Sweet 16? Attendance has to do with team success. Butler's attendance didn't go down after the HL Net came online. UWGBs attendance was the highest since the 90s. Laptop streaming isn't swaying attendance numbers by hundreds of people per game. Again, there's not hundreds of people per game making a conscious decision to take out their laptop and watch the game from home because they suddenly have this convenience vs traveling to the arena and buying a $15 ticket like in the old days. If you completely cut the streaming service, I doubt you'd find a significant increase in attendance. This is absolutely undetectable, however, because there's a variety of factors that determine attendance, but in every sport, the main predictor of high attendance is team success.

Quote from: a3uge on September 08, 2014, 02:10:21 PMYou think the Horizon League network would generate $720k to $2.16 million per year if they made it subscription based?

No I don't.  I do think it would make enough money to cover the cost of operating it and I think it would discourage fans from staying home to watch games.  If there was no other benefit at all, I think that would make it worthwhile to do.  But there is at least one other benefit.  Making the HLN a paysite would make the HL look like we value our product.  Try to watch a internet broadcast of an A-10,  MVC or MAC game next year.  You have to pay to watch their broadcast online because they know there is value to their product.   The HL doesn't get that.

Quote from: a3uge on September 08, 2014, 02:10:21 PM
Also, its asinine to suggest that UWM fans aren't going to games now because of online streaming. Don't you think their previous attendance marks have anything to do with them making it to the Sweet 16? Attendance has to do with team success. Butler's attendance didn't go down after the HL Net came online. UWGBs attendance was the highest since the 90s.

It's not asinine at all to suggest that UWM fans aren't traveling to Dayton because of online streaming.  It's a fact.  Like I have stated in my past post.  I have been traveling to WSU away games for decades.  I know many of the fans of other HL teams pretty well.  I have even let a few of them crash at my house when their team was in town over the years.   UWM didn't just stop having passionate fans because their team has had a few down years.   They still have several thousand loyal fans that follow their team closely.  I have asked many of those fans over the years why they don't travel as much to away games and the HLN is ALWAYS the answer. 

In regards to Butler and UWGB's attendance numbers, what is your point?  That successful teams don't have attendance problems.  Did you read the first post in this thread?  Your own team has won 2 conf. championships and a conf. tournament championship in the last 5 years and your attendance is down.  Wright State is coming off of the best 8 year stretch in school history and attendance is down.  There are many things that factor into why attendance numbers are down and offering the games for free online is one of them.  Ignoring that is asinine.

Quote from: Big D on September 08, 2014, 05:15:29 PMIt's not asinine at all to suggest that UWM fans aren't traveling to Dayton because of online streaming.  It's a fact.

I have a hard time imagining anything important enough to get me to Dayton.

Like not even a court date.

Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on September 08, 2014, 05:57:35 PM

Quote from: Big D on September 08, 2014, 05:15:29 PMIt's not asinine at all to suggest that UWM fans aren't traveling to Dayton because of online streaming.  It's a fact.

I have a hard time imagining anything important enough to get me to Dayton.

Like not even a court date.

Dayton ain't so bad. I used to go there a lot when Valpo played there but I think I got in the habit of watching the games on the internet. There certainly are a bunch of factors that go into my decision making but the HLN broadcasts are definitely a large part of why I don't go on as many road trips.

Quote from: FWalum on September 08, 2014, 02:06:18 PM
The proliferation of online entertainment opportunities has affected everything from local television, newspapers, restaurants and minor league teams.  I seriously doubt that the HLN has any major affect on home game attendance, if anything I feel the ease of accessibility has increased awareness of our teams among alumni and friends.  Giving back to alumni, friends and parents something that in the past has only be available to the BIG universities has more impact and is of higher value to our institutions than I think you take into consideration.

On average, less than 13% of college alumni give anything to their alma mater.  I don't think we need to be too concerned about using the HLN as a way of "giving back to alumni."

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2013/09/26/10-colleges-where-most-alumni-give-back (http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2013/09/26/10-colleges-where-most-alumni-give-back)

Quote from: Big D on September 08, 2014, 05:15:29 PM

Quote from: a3uge on September 08, 2014, 02:10:21 PMYou think the Horizon League network would generate $720k to $2.16 million per year if they made it subscription based?

No I don't.  I do think it would make enough money to cover the cost of operating it and I think it would discourage fans from staying home to watch games.  If there was no other benefit at all, I think that would make it worthwhile to do.  But there is at least one other benefit.  Making the HLN a paysite would make the HL look like we value our product.  Try to watch a internet broadcast of an A-10,  MVC or MAC game next year.  You have to pay to watch their broadcast online because they know there is value to their product.   The HL doesn't get that.

Quote from: a3uge on September 08, 2014, 02:10:21 PM
Also, its asinine to suggest that UWM fans aren't going to games now because of online streaming. Don't you think their previous attendance marks have anything to do with them making it to the Sweet 16? Attendance has to do with team success. Butler's attendance didn't go down after the HL Net came online. UWGBs attendance was the highest since the 90s.

It's not asinine at all to suggest that UWM fans aren't traveling to Dayton because of online streaming.  It's a fact.  Like I have stated in my past post.  I have been traveling to WSU away games for decades.  I know many of the fans of other HL teams pretty well.  I have even let a few of them crash at my house when their team was in town over the years.   UWM didn't just stop having passionate fans because their team has had a few down years.   They still have several thousand loyal fans that follow their team closely.  I have asked many of those fans over the years why they don't travel as much to away games and the HLN is ALWAYS the answer. 

In regards to Butler and UWGB's attendance numbers, what is your point?  That successful teams don't have attendance problems.  Did you read the first post in this thread?  Your own team has won 2 conf. championships and a conf. tournament championship in the last 5 years and your attendance is down.  Wright State is coming off of the best 8 year stretch in school history and attendance is down.  There are many things that factor into why attendance numbers are down and offering the games for free online is one of them.  Ignoring that is asinine.

UWM has attendance issues in their own stadium and their games have been televised locally for many years before HL net was around. So there goes that theory.

From an article entitled "Fewer Americans Go to the Movies:"

A report from the Motion Picture Association of America released Tuesday said that domestic movie box-office sales rose to $10.9 billion last year, from $10.8 billion in 2012.

But the increase was the result of higher ticket prices, not attendance.  Indeed, the number of tickets sold slipped yet again, this time 1.5% to 1.34 billion from 1.36 billion.

That extends a longstanding trend: The number of tickets sold fell nearly 11% between 2004 and 2013, according to the report, while box office revenue increased 17%.

With home-entertainment options improving all the time— whether streamed movies and television, video games, or mobile apps—and studios releasing fewer movies, people are less likely to head to their local multiplex.

Would someone care to explain how people staying home to watch streamed movies instead of going to the movie theater is any different than people staying home to watch streamed basketball games instead of going to the game?  For God's sake, please don't answer!

This isn't rocket science, folks.

I think it's different; the equivalent in sports would be waiting a few months to watch the same game at your house!

At any rate, an annual complaint on this board is the amount of students not attending games; I have a hard time imagining students are staying away because they want to watch in their dorm on the laptop.

I think Paul (or whoever it was above) had it right--the large part of the discrepancy can be chalked up to simply who's counting heads in the department.

Americans don't "do stuff" like they used to (see: Bowling Alone).  It's not VU's or the HL's fault.

Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on September 09, 2014, 06:29:35 AM

I think Paul (or whoever it was above) had it right--the large part of the discrepancy can be chalked up to simply who's counting heads in the department.

Can't agree with this.  Regardless of who is counting the numbers, attendance has both qualitative and quantitative attributes, IMO.  In other words, as a fan I don't have to know that 2300 people saw a game the other night. I don't have to know whether that number is accurate or how that number was determined.  All I need to know is that I can recognize a garbage athletic venue when I see one.

Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on September 09, 2014, 06:29:35 AM
I think it's different; the equivalent in sports would be waiting a few months to watch the same game at your house!

At any rate, an annual complaint on this board is the amount of students not attending games; I have a hard time imagining students are staying away because they want to watch in their dorm on the laptop.

I think Paul (or whoever it was above) had it right--the large part of the discrepancy can be chalked up to simply who's counting heads in the department.

Americans don't "do stuff" like they used to (see: Bowling Alone).  It's not VU's or the HL's fault.

Hopefully, the athletic department doesn't share your fatalist view. To use a poker analogy, there are too many hands that should have been played better (e.g., marketing) and too many aces being thrown away (e.g., ARC upgrade) to simply accept that "it is what it is."

   

Quote from: wh on September 08, 2014, 08:11:08 PM

Quote from: FWalum on September 08, 2014, 02:06:18 PM
The proliferation of online entertainment opportunities has affected everything from local television, newspapers, restaurants and minor league teams.  I seriously doubt that the HLN has any major affect on home game attendance, if anything I feel the ease of accessibility has increased awareness of our teams among alumni and friends.  Giving back to alumni, friends and parents something that in the past has only be available to the BIG universities has more impact and is of higher value to our institutions than I think you take into consideration.

On average, less than 13% of college alumni give anything to their alma mater.  I don't think we need to be too concerned about using the HLN as a way of "giving back to alumni."


http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2013/09/26/10-colleges-where-most-alumni-give-back (http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2013/09/26/10-colleges-where-most-alumni-give-back)

I am not sure what you are really trying to say with that article.  Have you been involved in non-profit development?  If you have and you are making that statement then your experience in development is a whole lot different than mine.  Making people associated with a group or organization feel like they aren't just being asked for money all of the time is a big concern for non-profits. The perception that they are getting some value from their association with the entity is one of the key factors.  Giving back, whether it be in the form of academic reputation, personal relationships, athletic accomplishments or name recognition is very important to development as I believe your list shows.  Is the HLN a HUGE factor... probably not, but it sure doesn't hurt to give interested alumni, for which it is not practical to attend, a way to stay connected to the team and university.

Quote from: wh on September 08, 2014, 10:55:14 PM
From an article entitled "Fewer Americans Go to the Movies:"

A report from the Motion Picture Association of America released Tuesday said that domestic movie box-office sales rose to $10.9 billion last year, from $10.8 billion in 2012.

But the increase was the result of higher ticket prices, not attendance.  Indeed, the number of tickets sold slipped yet again, this time 1.5% to 1.34 billion from 1.36 billion.

That extends a longstanding trend: The number of tickets sold fell nearly 11% between 2004 and 2013, according to the report, while box office revenue increased 17%.

With home-entertainment options improving all the time— whether streamed movies and television, video games, or mobile apps—and studios releasing fewer movies, people are less likely to head to their local multiplex.

Would someone care to explain how people staying home to watch streamed movies instead of going to the movie theater is any different than people staying home to watch streamed basketball games instead of going to the game?  For God's sake, please don't answer!

This isn't rocket science, folks.

I don't have to answer because you did it yourself.  With home-entertainment options improving all the time— whether streamed movies and television, video games, or mobile apps

There is not a one to one correlation between streaming movies and reduced movie theater attendance.  You have to include ALL of the other options that affect attendance.  Eliminating JUST streaming movies from the equation will not suddenly increase movie theater attendance by 11%.  It might help movie theaters as much as it helps basketball game attendance.  :)  The same would go for eliminating or making HLN fee based.  This may not be rocket science but it is certainly more complicated than you and Big D seem to think.

Putting the complexities aside (since I don't understand them anyway as Ft. Wayne points out  ;)), let me "simply" say that the HLN will be a pay-per-view site within 2 years.

Hopefully they will keep it fairly cheap.

I've gotten in the habit of watching games on the computer but if pinch comes to shove I'll have to stay home and watch the replays later. I certainly can't do all the road games anymore. I saw many parents at the road games I attended but not a lot of VU fans who traveled with the team. There were always Valpo alums but many didn't actually follow the team. Many would start asking you questions about the team when you demonstrated that you followed the team more closely.

If you guys are right, then so was the late Bill Wirtz.

Ask a Blackhawks fan whether making free TV available helped or hurt interest.

/argument

As mentioned in another thread, Green Bay has season ticket packages starting at $98.  The least expensive season ticket package Valpo offers is appx. $150 for lower level bleacher seats.  I would like to see a bargain offering similar to Green Bay's to see if it spurs additional interest.  $98 packages could be limited to the top half of the upper level bleachers.  If adequately promoted, something fresh like this could help spur attendance. The "same old same old" needs an energy boost. 

Quote from: wh on September 10, 2014, 03:46:26 PM
As mentioned in another thread, Green Bay has season ticket packages starting at $98.  The least expensive season ticket package Valpo offers is appx. $150 for lower level bleacher seats.  I would like to see a bargain offering similar to Green Bay's to see if it spurs additional interest.  $98 packages could be limited to the top half of the upper level bleachers.  If adequately promoted, something fresh like this could help spur attendance. The "same old same old" needs an energy boost. 

I would buy one. I go to approx 5-6 home games a year. I checked into season tickets a couple years ago and it was very close to paying full price for every home game. That's why I won't buy one. I'm afraid I might not be able to go to a couple games and it would be money wasted compared to buying them separately. If there are say 15 home games a year and season tickets are priced at paying full price for 14 1/2 of them, that isn't really a good deal. Now if it was the price of 12-13 of them then I would definitely buy.

I only read the first few items on this thread, but has this been brought up: Counting attendance at each game might be a bit more technologically advanced now. The more recent numbers may be closer to accurate. 10-plus years ago, Bill Rogers was guessing a number and throwing it in the box score.

Quote from: Valpo89 on September 11, 2014, 09:24:32 AM
I only read the first few items on this thread, but has this been brought up: Counting attendance at each game might be a bit more technologically advanced now. The more recent numbers may be closer to accurate. 10-plus years ago, Bill Rogers was guessing a number and throwing it in the box score.

Yes, it was mentioned. You'd see that if you actually read the threads anymore.

You're as bad as Bill Rogers guessing at attendance. Lazy, lazy, lazy!!!

Quote from: Valpo89 on September 11, 2014, 09:24:32 AM
I only read the first few items on this thread, but has this been brought up: Counting attendance at each game might be a bit more technologically advanced now. The more recent numbers may be closer to accurate. 10-plus years ago, Bill Rogers was guessing a number and throwing it in the box score.

Only one problem with that explanation - My eyes would have to be lying to me if I accepted that attendance during the Lubos and Broekhoff eras was anywhere close to the same. 

The newly released schedule  sure won't put a stop to the plummet.  UNM is the only "marquee" team to come to the ARC. If I were in a position (geographically, that is) to want to be a season ticket holder, this year I'd pass.

Quote from: bbtds on September 11, 2014, 10:27:13 AM

Quote from: Valpo89 on September 11, 2014, 09:24:32 AM
I only read the first few items on this thread, but has this been brought up: Counting attendance at each game might be a bit more technologically advanced now. The more recent numbers may be closer to accurate. 10-plus years ago, Bill Rogers was guessing a number and throwing it in the box score.

Yes, it was mentioned. You'd see that if you actually read the threads anymore.

You're as bad as Bill Rogers guessing at attendance. Lazy, lazy, lazy!!!

Sorry TD. Not necessarily lazy, just lack of interest and too much time on other web sites. :)

I agree with wh.  We filled most of the mezz during my school years, and we are lucky to get 1/4 of the mezz filled recently.  I have to think that the numbers back then were within a few hundred people of what was listed.  Literally each game had at least 2/3 of the mezz filled.

Quote from: a3uge on September 08, 2014, 09:23:38 PM
UWM has attendance issues in their own stadium and their games have been televised locally for many years before HL net was around. So there goes that theory.

That's BS.  They don't televise their entire season's worth of home games.  They only televised a handful of them.  That is actually a good business practice.  Give potential fans a taste of your product hoping to turn them into future paying customers.  It's a model that has made Netflix billions.  They give you a month free to try their service before they start to charge you.  It's a sound business practice taught to any first year business student.  It's a shame the idiots that run the HL think that giving away the entire product is going to somehow do the same thing.

Quote from: Big D on September 11, 2014, 10:11:42 PM

Quote from: a3uge on September 08, 2014, 09:23:38 PM
UWM has attendance issues in their own stadium and their games have been televised locally for many years before HL net was around. So there goes that theory.

That's BS.  They don't televise their entire season's worth of home games.  They only televised a handful of them.  That is actually a good business practice.  Give potential fans a taste of your product hoping to turn them into future paying customers.  It's a model that has made Netflix billions.  They give you a month free to try their service before they start to charge you.  It's a sound business practice taught to any first year business student.  It's a shame the idiots that run the HL think that giving away the entire product is going to somehow do the same thing.

I've lived in Milwaukee for over 20 years. I can promise you, people that aren't going to UWM games aren't watching the games on their laptop. UWM is completely irrelevant in Milwaukee and most of their students don't even know they have a D1 team. Saying the attendance at UWM is low because of laptop streaming has no basis in reality.

Quote from: a3uge on September 11, 2014, 10:17:12 PM

Quote from: Big D on September 11, 2014, 10:11:42 PM

Quote from: a3uge on September 08, 2014, 09:23:38 PMUWM has attendance issues in their own stadium and their games have been televised locally for many years before HL net was around. So there goes that theory.

That's BS.  They don't televise their entire season's worth of home games.  They only televised a handful of them.  That is actually a good business practice.  Give potential fans a taste of your product hoping to turn them into future paying customers.  It's a model that has made Netflix billions.  They give you a month free to try their service before they start to charge you.  It's a sound business practice taught to any first year business student.  It's a shame the idiots that run the HL think that giving away the entire product is going to somehow do the same thing.

I've lived in Milwaukee for over 20 years. I can promise you, people that aren't going to UWM games aren't watching the games on their laptop. UWM is completely irrelevant in Milwaukee and most of their students don't even know they have a D1 team. Saying the attendance at UWM is low because of laptop streaming has no basis in reality.

They also played off campus for a long time.  They are now going back to their on campus stadium and should see an increase in their attendance.

Quote from: Kyle321n on September 12, 2014, 09:36:45 AM

Quote from: a3uge on September 11, 2014, 10:17:12 PM

Quote from: Big D on September 11, 2014, 10:11:42 PM

Quote from: a3uge on September 08, 2014, 09:23:38 PMUWM has attendance issues in their own stadium and their games have been televised locally for many years before HL net was around. So there goes that theory.

That's BS.  They don't televise their entire season's worth of home games.  They only televised a handful of them.  That is actually a good business practice.  Give potential fans a taste of your product hoping to turn them into future paying customers.  It's a model that has made Netflix billions.  They give you a month free to try their service before they start to charge you.  It's a sound business practice taught to any first year business student.  It's a shame the idiots that run the HL think that giving away the entire product is going to somehow do the same thing.

I've lived in Milwaukee for over 20 years. I can promise you, people that aren't going to UWM games aren't watching the games on their laptop. UWM is completely irrelevant in Milwaukee and most of their students don't even know they have a D1 team. Saying the attendance at UWM is low because of laptop streaming has no basis in reality.

They also played off campus for a long time.  They are now going back to their on campus stadium and should see an increase in their attendance.

Actually they're moving back OFF campus after briefly moving on campus for a year. Attendance was terrible the year they were on campus (so was the team). They just bought the naming rights to the off campus arena, which is why it might be confusing. The on campus arena is too small and the parking is too terrible for area alumni. Its also incredibly inconvenient to get to and is located far from the highway.

Ah for some reason I had that mixed in my brain.

Quote from: gamelord on September 10, 2014, 04:17:44 PM

Quote from: wh on September 10, 2014, 03:46:26 PM
As mentioned in another thread, Green Bay has season ticket packages starting at $98.  The least expensive season ticket package Valpo offers is appx. $150 for lower level bleacher seats.  I would like to see a bargain offering similar to Green Bay's to see if it spurs additional interest.  $98 packages could be limited to the top half of the upper level bleachers.  If adequately promoted, something fresh like this could help spur attendance. The "same old same old" needs an energy boost. 

I would buy one. I go to approx 5-6 home games a year. I checked into season tickets a couple years ago and it was very close to paying full price for every home game. That's why I won't buy one. I'm afraid I might not be able to go to a couple games and it would be money wasted compared to buying them separately. If there are say 15 home games a year and season tickets are priced at paying full price for 14 1/2 of them, that isn't really a good deal. Now if it was the price of 12-13 of them then I would definitely buy.

A Big D quote on the WSU board:

I would encourage anyone that is on the fence about getting season tickets to consider getting the "value section" season ticket package. You can purchase tickets in sections 203, 209, 216, or 222 above the rail for $99. You can also get a family 4 Pack for only $260 in those areas. Those seats are in the 4 corners of the arena and still have pretty good site lines.

That's 2 HL schools with an under $100 season ticket option (haven't checked the others).  The Family 4 Pack is an even better deal.  Meanwhile, our least expensive season ticket option is $147.50.   The introduction of "specials" is a fundamental pricing strategy used to generate more business and increase profitability.  It follows basic law #2 of supply and demand:

If demand decreases (demand curve shifts to the left) supply remains unchanged, a surplus occurs, leading to a lower equilibrium price.

We should be doing it.

If there were better opponents on the schedule I would have to think that more people would show up to the games. I don't know of very many people willing to pay $147.50-$516.25 (season ticket package price range) for games against Grand Valley State, East Tennessee State, IU South Bend, New Mexico, Trinity International, Ball State, and Goshen plus the 8 conference home games. Sure it's a decent amount of games, but the overall of those teams is not good at all. 3 Non-Division I opponents regular season games (plus GVSU as an exhibition) just doesn't do a whole lot to excite a fan base to come out to the ARC when they know it's going to be a blowout. I know it's difficult as a mid-major to schedule big name schools, but if you bring in just a few other teams who are on at least Valpo's level if not a little higher then you will see higher attendance (see Murray St and SLU last year) in those games since people see their ticket being worth what they're paying for it. Just my  :twocents:

If there were still a lot of people in the NWI/Valpo area that remember Gene Bartow's time at VU, then there might be a lot of interest in the ETSU game, since it will be a game that VU honors Coach Bartow's time at VU. I wasn't around/alive for that period in Coach Bartow's life, but my high school coach knew Mr. Bartow from many coaching clinics and camps over his years as a player and coach. New Mexico may draw because they were in the tournament last year, and Ball State is just Ball State. Isn't one of the non-D1 games a part of an exempt tourney that starts at home sites, and leads to the host school? We will have a very difficult time scheduling good teams for our level of RPI rankings as long as computers are deciding what happens with at-large bids and seeding for the NCAA tournament. Last season, I would have been fine with this schedule with all the unknowns we had. Now that we've had a year of the Class of 2018, it's time to challenge them to show us they can build the program up with some challenging games that bring out the true reasons why Coach Drew recruited them, and offered a scholarship. Just putting in a non-D1 game because we need a breather isn't going to help these guys build into the players and future of the Valparaiso Basketball program and inspiring the local community to build/become a fan base that VU basketball can excite with great games.

I don't buy the internet reason.    Die-hards in Valpo will want to watch in person.   

Non-conference season:  Schedule is the key.

Conference games in Jan-Feb?    Baffling.    Is it possible that increasing numbers of our students are just too artsy, are loners, or come from countries that don't play basketball?

Prices probably are too high. We're paying $550 per courtside ticket this year, but after that it's $250 per ticket. They should drop prices in a big way and then make up the cost through a "scholarship drive" or by kicking up student tuition a bit. They could drop season ticket prices across the board by $50 a ticket and make up the cost by increasing student tuition $25, which in private tuition is like...nothing.

Quote from: crusadermoe on October 01, 2014, 10:15:19 PM
I don't buy the internet reason.    Die-hards in Valpo will want to watch in person.   

Non-conference season:  Schedule is the key.

Conference games in Jan-Feb?    Baffling.    Is it possible that increasing numbers of our students are just too artsy, are loners, or come from countries that don't play basketball?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Sure, die-hards will always want to be in the ARC and even travel. But how many fans are "die-hards?" Every fan base has a majority of fans who are more casual.

Non-conference scheduling is key. Do whatever you can to get Butler/Notre Dame/Purdue/Indiana in the ARC. You guys have it harder than we do in Milwaukee, which is staggering for a Panther fan to digest because we think our 4-for-1 deal with Wisconsin is a freaking joke. With so many D-I teams in-state, it's got to be nearly impossible to get them there. But if it takes signing things like 4-for-1's, then that's what's got to happen.

I would also point out that the "Decade of Dominance" had effect in that fans could see Valpo dominating the conference as a "sure thing," and therefore casual fans would want to be on the bandwagon earlier. Now, you may have had a pretty good run since joining the Horizon League - no one would argue against that - but I don't get the sense that casual fans of the Crusaders think they're going to dominate the league, so they can wait until the late season to jump on the bandwagon.

Good comments, panther.

To the brotherhood - I hope no one feels compelled to reply by mocking panther's program change predictionsfrom the past (yes, I did it too).  After a while it just becomes mean-spirited and over the top. He has taken a chance posting on our board again, and I'm sure he's wondering how he's going to be received. Let me suggest that the phony twitter posts be discontinued, and we show him the same level of respect that we give our other visitors. 

Quote from: wh on October 03, 2014, 11:26:13 AM
Good comments, panther.

To the brotherhood - I hope no one feels compelled to reply by mocking panther's program change predictions from the past (yes, I did it too).  After a while it just becomes mean-spirited and over the top. He has taken a chance posting on our board again, and I'm sure he's wondering how he's going to be received. Let me suggest that the phony twitter posts be discontinued, and we show him the same level of respect that we give our other visitors. 

panther has definitely made some good points here.

However, suggesting that budgets be balanced on the backs of students already six figures in debt is not one of them.

Two quick thoughts.  First, I'm romanticizing quite a lot here, but I think in some ways the Gene Bartow years (1964-70) were the best years of VU basketball.  Our teams were always competitive, often excellent.  Home crowds were great (I went to each and every home basketball game during that time), probably because if you wanted to watch a game, the only option you had in these pre-cable TV days was to actually go the gym and watch VU play.  There was an energy to those games that is difficult to describe.  We played teams from our home state where the rivalries were real and longstanding, instead of made-up rivalries with teams like Wright State and UWGB.  The gap between good small college teams and big time college teams was not nearly as great as it is now.  VU was able to lure a few big time programs into Hilltop Gym, and more than a few of those teams were ambushed by talented, under-the-radar VU squads (VU beat Purdue one year -- I still recall the score, 114-96 -- and Coach Bartow later told my dad the Purdue AD was so mad he told VU he would never allow Purdue to play VU again as long as he was the AD). 

The second thought I have is that unless VU has a lights-out team, with a win or two over a BCS program (which, by the way, we have not done in years) we will never again see a season with average home crowd attendance of 4500+/- like we did in the late 90s/early 2000s.  There are too many games on TV, too many options for the casual fan, prices are too high, there are too many games, and too many of today's students just don't care about sports that much.  VU is always bragging about its increasing number of international students, but I would bet the farm the overwhelming majority of these kids have zero interest in going to the games.  Declining attendance is all over the place in college sports.  Drake here in Des Moines doesn't draw well except for a couple true rivalry games each year.  Same with UNI.  The attendance is just not going to come back to where it was, for us and for most schools like us. 

Paul

Quote from: wh on October 03, 2014, 11:26:13 AM
Good comments, panther.

To the brotherhood - I hope no one feels compelled to reply by mocking panther's program change predictionsfrom the past (yes, I did it too).  After a while it just becomes mean-spirited and over the top. He has taken a chance posting on our board again, and I'm sure he's wondering how he's going to be received. Let me suggest that the phony twitter posts be discontinued, and we show him the same level of respect that we give our other visitors. 

lol what? I'm a glutton for self-deprecation and an unforgiving narcissist, I'd love to see fake twitter posts attributed to me!

My absence from this board is simple, life as a college grad doesn't provide with enough time to read other message boards. Also, following the APR ban and an argument with a couple of UWM baseball parents (seriously entitled people), I took an extended leave from PantherU and following the program.

If anyone knows where the fake twitter posts are, I'd love to see them haha

Quote from: 78crusader on October 03, 2014, 03:39:38 PM

The second thought I have is that unless VU has a lights-out team, with a win or two over a BCS program (which, by the way, we have not done in years) we will never again see a season with average home crowd attendance of 4500+/- like we did in the late 90s/early 2000s..

Technically not true, although we also lost to same BCS team in the same year.

Anyways, I agree that meaningful success helps attendance, but it's hard to beat top conference schools when there's none on the schedule.

Remember, though, that it takes two to tango...just because you want to take a better-looking girl out doesn't mean she wants you to too.

I mean, I learned that YEARS ago.

That said, wouldn't you think that we would be a good "date" these days?  They might not have wanted to schedule us after 2011-12, when we were coming off a conference (reg) championship and had pretty much everyone back, because we might actually win (freakin' nebraska game, man).  And they wouldn't have wanted to play us based on, say, 2009, when we were in the depths.

But NOW we should be prime pickin's--we're good, so we won't be an RPI drag, but not so good that we would walk into their place and punch them in the mouth (here's where the dating metaphor breaks down, unless you're an NFL player). (TOO SOON)

The "reverential reading" here would be that perhaps they see us as a team on the rise, and so they are wary.

But home-and-homes?  Those are relegated to a different time in college sport.

I was at the reunion of the 1964 ICC championship FB team this weekend at Valpo.  So, what does a FB reunion have to do with putting butts in the ARC for BB? Well, related to this issue, at the Saturday night dinner was a digitized  8mm film of many of the games the team played that year taken by a parent of one of the players.  Games against St. Joe's and Butler (both wins, BTW) at Brown Field were particularly illuminating.  And I believe they shed some light on this discussion.

Each of the home games were sellout crowds  -- 6,000 +.  Not only were the home stands packed, but the visitors side (10 rows higher than the present stands BTW) were jammed AND the west side lines from the home bleachers around to the visitor's side were SRO 10  deep.  This was a team that at one point had a losing record (and the record in the previous year, 1963, was 3-6) , but eventually rallied and tied for the conference championship.  Games then were an event.  Valpo had a 100+piece marching band and you could see the same size or larger Butler marching band occupying a huge amount of space on the visitor's side.  The half time was full of energy and activity  -- few left their seats. 

It took me until this Saturday to realize what we had back then.  You were in the minority if you skipped a Saturday football game.  You had to get to Hilltop early for a BB game or you might not get a student seat -- the student section was essentially, the whole lower section below the present upper bleachers of the ARK running the full sideline.

But things are different today.  Vastly different. Many (dare I say most?) students do not care about athletics -- or maybe even the university as a whole. And I doubt that the loyalty and school spirit that was a part of campus life back then exists today among the me generation who are tied to Twitter and Facebook -- those critical keys to life that are so important in posting to the world what is happening in their dreary little lives.  I don't know when things shifted, so I would leave it to some of our younger posters to help identify when the tipping point actually occurred.

This is antithetical to what my avatar tries to convey, but I believe attendance at Valpo home games (you pick the sport) will continue to decline no matter what the athletic department does to bring non-parental bodies into the ARC.   And if you look at who follows Valpo on the road or see who's sitting in the chair backs you'll see a lot of gray hair.  Once those gray hairs (who lived through and remember those days I described above) are resigned to their walkers, you'll see even fewer fans.  Sad as it may sound, guys, that's my bottom line.

I know I haven't posted on here in a while, since I've been busy getting my life started and such. I do see the trend many people are talking about, about students not caring about the team. For me I went to every basketball game I was able to attend, this even included skipping a final exam to watch them play IPFW of all teams, but that might be the extreme, unfortunately students just don't have the same enthusiasm for sports as they once did. There are still the diehards out there but there just aren't as many as there used to be.

I think a big reason for the decline in fans, especially the students, was the loss of the 2013 senior class. Last year the senior class was made up of all transfers, none of them spent all 4 years in the brown and gold. Unlike Rowdy, EB, KVW, and Matt Kenney, those guys were well liked and people were able to identify more with them or at least that's what I noticed as a student and when they left we had a large incoming freshmen class and a ton of transfers that students didn't know or recognize on campus really well, except for the Vashil and Bobby.

So I do foresee an increase in attendance for home games in the coming years. As a senior last year it seemed like many freshmen would go to the games and talk about the games but the sophomore, junior, and senior classes didn't seem to care as much. So that is a good sign that perhaps attendance will increase.

Student turnout isn't the only thing leading to the decrease in attendance. I think a big issue has been the marketing in NWI, during my 4 years in the region other than a few billboards there wasn't much in terms of marketing, no commercials, adds in other towns, or any signs of Valpo other than in the city itself. If the marketing gurus marketed in Merrillville, Schererville, Highland, Michigan City, LaPorte, etc... as Valpo being NWI's team more people would show up for games. Valparaiso doesn't just belong to the city but it belongs to a region of 750,000 people that you could easily draw from. Last time I checked Valparaiso has been the most successful college basketball team in the Chicagoland area in recent history and why this fact hasn't been marketed throughout the region is beyond me.

If you ask me I do foresee student turnout to increase but if nothing is done in the marketing offices the rest of the ARC will remail half empty for a good majority of games.

As for me I look forward to this season but won't be able to attend many games since moving to the Hawkeye State, but I will be in Columbia to watch them take on Mizzou.

Marketing and winning, marketing and winning, marketing and winning will increase attendance

At the end of the day, there are far more choices for students to spend their free time doing than attending sporting events. Back in 63, and 64, you went to the events because everyone you knew was going. If you didn't go, you'd be spending your time alone, as there wasn't much else going on.
Marketing may help a little, and winning always helps, but I just don't see the numbers ever getting back to where they once were. Ironically, I still see the big attendances at the high school events. My guess is because whether you're at home or away, you never really have to travel too far, and it's easier to keep engaged an interested, with less pressure than college students deal with day to day.
   

Quote from: classof2014 on October 06, 2014, 10:54:07 AM
Student turnout isn't the only thing leading to the decrease in attendance. I think a big issue has been the marketing in NWI, during my 4 years in the region other than a few billboards there wasn't much in terms of marketing, no commercials, adds in other towns, or any signs of Valpo other than in the city itself. If the marketing gurus marketed in Merrillville, Schererville, Highland, Michigan City, LaPorte, etc... as Valpo being NWI's team more people would show up for games. Valparaiso doesn't just belong to the city but it belongs to a region of 750,000 people that you could easily draw from. Last time I checked Valparaiso has been the most successful college basketball team in the Chicagoland area in recent history and why this fact hasn't been marketed throughout the region is beyond me.

I think the main issue with trying to market the team as nwi's team instead of just the city is because of Valparaiso (or Valpo) in the team name. If we were the northwest indiana crusaders  (or something similar) then we'd have a much bigger draw, but since that isn't the case...no matter how much advertising you do, outside communities will continue to see it as Valpo's city team.

Quote from: jack on October 06, 2014, 02:01:14 PMIronically, I still see the big attendances at the high school events.

Surprised to see you make that statement.  Attendance for high school boy's basketball is way down in this area.  The issue here is primarily the title 9 mandated movement to mid-week boy's games. Other issues are also involved as weekend attendance is not quite what it used to be.

Quote from: gamelord on October 07, 2014, 07:21:26 AM

Quote from: classof2014 on October 06, 2014, 10:54:07 AM
Student turnout isn't the only thing leading to the decrease in attendance. I think a big issue has been the marketing in NWI, during my 4 years in the region other than a few billboards there wasn't much in terms of marketing, no commercials, adds in other towns, or any signs of Valpo other than in the city itself. If the marketing gurus marketed in Merrillville, Schererville, Highland, Michigan City, LaPorte, etc... as Valpo being NWI's team more people would show up for games. Valparaiso doesn't just belong to the city but it belongs to a region of 750,000 people that you could easily draw from. Last time I checked Valparaiso has been the most successful college basketball team in the Chicagoland area in recent history and why this fact hasn't been marketed throughout the region is beyond me.

I think the main issue with trying to market the team as nwi's team instead of just the city is because of Valparaiso (or Valpo) in the team name. If we were the northwest indiana crusaders  (or something similar) then we'd have a much bigger draw, but since that isn't the case...no matter how much advertising you do, outside communities will continue to see it as Valpo's city team.

In that case, let's just call them the "Indiana Crusaders" to really boost attendance!

EVEN BETTER HOW 'BOUT THE AMERICA CRUSADERZ

Quote from: FWalum on October 07, 2014, 07:58:12 AM

Quote from: jack on October 06, 2014, 02:01:14 PMIronically, I still see the big attendances at the high school events.

Surprised to see you make that statement.  Attendance for high school boy's basketball is way down in this area.  The issue here is primarily the title 9 mandated movement to mid-week boy's games. Other issues are also involved as weekend attendance is not quite what it used to be.

Since the decline in college sports attendance is a state, and nationwide issue, I was speaking to the bigger picture here. As a whole, and across the board, the attendance at high school sporting events has leveled off in recent years. I do believe it has declined some in this region, but in other regions, for instance, in the Indy Metro area, they have actually seen an increase at some schools in some sports.

Quote from: jack on October 08, 2014, 09:29:52 AMin the Indy Metro area, they have actually seen an increase at some schools in some sports.

Interesting. I wonder if that is a direct result of channel 40 (free-TV) broadcasting high school sports.

Not really sure how free broadcast on 40 would improve game attendance? ?
The point was that actual game attendance in the metro area is up from last season. Not really sure why but it seems to be that way nationally. As others noted, In the NWI region the numbers at the college level are down. Again, not really sure why though the advance of the tech era seems to have some affect.

Quote from: jack on October 09, 2014, 06:20:31 PMNot really sure how free broadcast on 40 would improve game attendance?

And here I thought Bill Wirtz had died.

Quote from: gamelord on October 07, 2014, 07:21:26 AMno matter how much advertising you do, outside communities will continue to see it as Valpo's city team.

I've thought many a time if there was a Greek Orthodox Merrillville University with a Div I basketball team playing in the Horizon League would I travel to the far west side of Merrillville to see them play Wright St or UWM. The answer would probably be no.

Renovated Hinkle Fieldhouse to be unveiled at Saturday game

http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20141031/SPORTS/141039933/1013 (http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20141031/SPORTS/141039933/1013)

A $36 million renovation at a university that is almost a mirror image of Valpo.  I think we need to give Butler their just due.  They had an iconic facility as it was.  Their administration and board could very easily have chosen to maintain the status quo, given lip service to the need for a major facility upgrade, and chosen something instead from the never ending laundry list of critical academic/residential facility needs that every university has.

Strategically, Butler is "all in" on using their men's basketball program to help build their brand.  Clearly, this is not the case with Valpo.  Instead, they are "all in" on using an infusion of foreign students as a vehicle to help build their brand.  Neither strategy is without risk.  It will be interesting to see how the two schools compare 5 years from now.

 

Quote from: wh on November 01, 2014, 12:07:04 AM
Renovated Hinkle Fieldhouse to be unveiled at Saturday game

http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20141031/SPORTS/141039933/1013 (http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20141031/SPORTS/141039933/1013)

A $36 million renovation at a university that is almost a mirror image of Valpo.  I think we need to give Butler their just due.  They had an iconic facility as it was.  Their administration and board could very easily have chosen to maintain the status quo, given lip service to the need for a major facility upgrade, and chosen something instead from the never ending laundry list of critical academic/residential facility needs that every university has.

Strategically, Butler is "all in" on using their men's basketball program to help build their brand.  Clearly, this is not the case with Valpo.  Instead, they are "all in" on using an infusion of foreign students as a vehicle to help build their brand.  Neither strategy is without risk.  It will be interesting to see how the two schools compare 5 years from now.

 

But isn't this the classic chicken/egg situation?  Was it truly their administration being "all in" or was it a case of "now we can do this because of all the money we are making via our new conference's TV deal?"  :crazy:  I know, that opens the door to all sorts of previously discussed to death issues...  :(

This makeover started some years ago.  The last time we played at Hinkle, a season ticket holder told me the first priority was the roof and upgrading the restrooms.  The first restrooms to be renovated were those near the season ticket holders lower sections in the lower arena.  By-the-way, the men's restrooms still had the trough urinals and they were PORCELIN that was chipped and cracked. And you thought Wrigley Field's were bad!!   At that time they were in the midst of a campaign to renovate the building, the fruits of which you are seeing now.  Their campaign started when they were living the dream of Howard, et al.

Quote from: valpo64 on November 01, 2014, 01:47:33 PM
This makeover started some years ago.  The last time we played at Hinkle, a season ticket holder told me the first priority was the roof and upgrading the restrooms.  The first restrooms to be renovated were those near the season ticket holders lower sections in the lower arena.  By-the-way, the men's restrooms still had the trough urinals and they were PORCELIN that was chipped and cracked. And you thought Wrigley Field's were bad!!   At that time they were in the midst of a campaign to renovate the building, the fruits of which you are seeing now.  Their campaign started when they were living the dream of Howard, et al.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Q: How much of the renovation of Hinkle is due to being in the Big East?  I know some athletic directors don't like the term keeping up with the Joneses, but they admit there is some element of that. How much did it spur you doing this and how much was it just, 'Hey, we've got an 80-plus year-old building and it needs some work?"

Collier: We really began with the building assessment in 2009, before we even went to the Final Four. In 2010, we got that finished and the administration and the trustees all agreed to begin a fundraising, feasibility study. That kind of drove the scope of what we would be able to do.

A: So there's very little truth to the idea that this was spurred by the Big East?

Collier: Very little, if any. We had not even been talking with the (Atlantic 10, which Butler played in for one season before joining the Big East) at that time. Now, we do think we need quality facilities to be successful in Division I. But having said that, we started doing this when were in the Horizon League, long before we were talking about the Big East.

So, as '64 indicates, the decision to spend the money and conduct a fundraising campaign were made while still in the Horizon League - even before they initiated talks with the A-10.  Again, Butler is operating from a different business model than Valpo is. 

http://www.indystar.com/story/butler-insider/2014/10/31/butler-insider-an-interview-with-barry-collier/18258121/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/butler-insider/2014/10/31/butler-insider-an-interview-with-barry-collier/18258121/)

I thought it might be appropriate to bring this thread back to life because attendance for general admission and the students has been WAY DOWN going back to last season. We have some very real issues that need to be addressed.

The only really well attended game this season was the Loyola game (sub-par student turnout still) at 4040...

Paul really went in the paint hard at Valpo fans and even the Athletics Department over the attendance in his latest podcast (start at 29:20): http://www.nwitimes.com/digital/audio/union-street-hoops/podcast-union-street-hoops-hours-in-america/audio_3efe7bec-0bb0-11e8-8c7d-47a34526f09c.html

Even if you're not a podcast fan I recommend you listen to the back half of his last podcast. He says what needs to be said. Everyone needs to step their game up including the fans. A really great podcast episode.

College Basketball attendance is down pretty much all across the board for most college basketball teams. It seems more often people are staying at home and watching the games on ESPN3 then they are attending the games. It really puts the emphasis on the Athletics Department to step up it's game and enhance the gameday experience which to say the least is lacking. I like the people that work in the AD but things need to change and its not only the on court product that needs to raise its game...

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/960635084574527488

Barry Hinson was doing his media presser today and one of the reporters asked him about attendance and he had a interesting response. One of the reporters also mentioned that the MVC offices reported that attendance numbers on average at MVC games are down on average 700 people per game this season.

(start at 9:30) https://www.pscp.tv/w/1MnGneRWbAwKO
https://twitter.com/SIU_Basketball/status/961338003007385600

The best draw in the league left and got replaced by ya. That's why attendance is down that much.

In years past, The Times had articles previewing the games.  Now, VU has to place ads to get publicity prior to the games.  Even after the games, articles about VU are often deep into the sports section.  Paul does a nice job of covering the games, but the editors do little to support the only Division 1 program in the coverage area.

One thing that can't be overlooked is the lack of Friday night/Saturday games we have had over the past two years. Weeknights are hard on everyone. Sunday afternoon competing against Football, hangovers and homework isn't much better. Friday and Saturday night will always have much better attendance (save for outliers like a home NIT game vs Florida State).

That being said, attendance has still be poor as has student interest and it needs to be addressed.

Here's what I don't understand about the attendance decline.

1) This years seniors were freshmen and sophomores during two of the greatest seasons of Valpo basketball. They saw an NCAA tournament appearance and a NIT finals game. How the heck do you not become a fan after that?

2) Granted, the city of Valpo has grown since I graduated 10 years ago but come on, how much is really going on in town that would compete for students attention?

3) It appears that other schools are able to draw students to their games. So I'm not sure we can blame our attendance decline on the fact that kids like to spend more time online or whatnot.

Valpo basketball is the face of this university. It's how the public at large even knows that Valpo exists. The basketball team was one of the reasons why I wanted to attend Valpo. The failure to promote this program is....stunning. It is or was one of the most marketable assets of the university.

Quote from: mj on February 08, 2018, 10:39:36 AMValpo basketball is the face of this university. It's how the public at large even knows that Valpo exists. The basketball team was one of the reasons why I wanted to attend Valpo. The failure to promote this program is....stunning. It is or was one of the most marketable assets of the university.

There's some reality to this (face of the university, etc.). And obviously you say "one of" the most marketable assets. But, I'd further emphasize that this is especially true _to sports fans_. To the extent that the US has a sports culture, that the NCAA tournament is a national event, etc. this trickles out to a considerable extent into the mass culture. Gets your name on the evening news, etc.

But, I suspect there are plenty of students, plenty of parents, plenty of guidance counselors, for whom the basketball team isn't very important. To whom factors like regional and national rankings, residential campus, small university, liberal arts feel, quality professional colleges, quality faculty, no graduate TA's, etc, etc. matter a lot more.

I'm neutral, uneducated really, on the extent to which VU is/has "missed an opportunity" in terms of marketing. I just want to point out that basketball is far from the _only_ good thing that Valpo has going!

Back on the original topic of the thread, I'm always fascinated to be reminded that attendance _averaged_ more than 4000 in recent memory.

I attended games in '96, '97, presumably in '98 and '99 (certainly the Sweet Sixteen game, but that was off campus). I wasn't paying attention to attendance or crowd sizes back then, probably, but I have no recollection of the place being 80% full, on _average_!

I have mentioned this in other posts, but academic research (at a university similar to Valpo) found that the following two factors most influenced attendance: 1. Perceived quality of the team, 2. Perceived quality of the opponent. After that, everything else is much less important.

However, this might not apply to Valpo. Has anyone thought of asking the students why they do or do not attend games?

Quote from: vu84v2 on February 08, 2018, 01:54:40 PM
However, this might not apply to Valpo. Has anyone thought of asking the students why they do or do not attend games?

I threw out the idea of getting a student business class making it a fun class project to look into student attendance. Not sure if anyone in the Athletics Department is listening. A student led research project might have better results because that is their generation and know their peers better then we or the AD does. Also it would be cost effective and probably beneficial to the students.

Quote from: vu84v2 on February 08, 2018, 01:54:40 PM
I have mentioned this in other posts, but academic research (at a university similar to Valpo) found that the following two factors most influenced attendance: 1. Perceived quality of the team, 2. Perceived quality of the opponent. After that, everything else is much less important.

The OOC schedule needs to be better next season. We don't need Purdue coming in here but let's try and consistently get good mid-majors in here at the ARC. I know scheduling is pretty much the hardest thing to do these days but it would be nice to see us quit with the non-D1s. Maybe only have 1 per year as a "tune-up" or only schedule them as a preseason game.

The quality of opponent is critical.

I didn't want anyone to have to over-think an excuse to stay home on Sunday afternoon when the RedBirds come to the ARC.


The Sunday excuse will be the Olympics Biathlon and Cross-Country Skiing events...and everyone will want to rush home for the warm-ups  Starting at 4:30:  Athletes warm up on the main rink before the third and final session of the team event, featuring the men’s and ladies’ free skates plus the free dance.

We do have a 60% chance of light snow, with temps in the low 20s.  After the Snowmagedden coming in the next 36 hours, we should have people clambering  (climb, move, or get in or out of something in an awkward and laborious way, typically using both hands and feet to get out.

Of course, the "Abe Deserves His Own Day" sect will be sleeping in as they prep for the big Monday events on 2/12.

too bad we can't black-out the ESPN-U game on campus...

Quote from: talksalot on February 08, 2018, 03:10:22 PM

too bad we can't black-out the ESPN-U game on campus...

If only they could...

Paul should ask his class what's the deal with the student not showing up. He's around these kids everyday. He should be able to get the inside scoop.

Has the students that Valpo attracts really changed so much in such a short amount of time? Or has the basketball culture just been lost and not taught and nurtured to the next generation?

 A lot can shift on campus in a four year periods,especially with smaller schools.

If I were the athletics Depart you start where you are: are teams going out and supporting each other, then you work your way out. How can you appeal to greek life, or other groups.

Face and body painting before the game maybe? Or have students come and do it in the dorms first and walk people over? Table during the week to get people to sign up to be in the student section at the game.

Have the campanile bells play the valpo fight song a half hour before a game starts

i don't know, but a student run twitter feed that snarks at students when they sit in the wrong section and promises for foam fingers just isn't enough.

Quote from: talksalot on February 08, 2018, 03:10:22 PMWe do have a 60% chance of light snow, with temps in the low 20s.  After the Snowmagedden coming in the next 36 hours, we should have people clambering  (climb, move, or get in or out of something in an awkward and laborious way, typically using both hands and feet to get out.

The university's already announced that operations are suspended as of 9 PM this evening. Expected to re-open 3:30 PM Saturday.

They've gone soft, in these last years!

Long way to walk in the snow.   But the good news....SNOWFLAKES would be right in their element.

Thoughts on the attendance this season? Considering the teams struggles this season and some of the nasty weather this season it's not too bad but I thought we'd have a little better attendance given the conference switch. As for student attendance... that's a whole different discussion for a different thread. Oh wait...  ??? http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=3075.75

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/966181064891871233

I understand that student attendance has been low.  Valpo has a student body of roughly 4,000.  I wonder percentage wise where we stand in student attendance.  We will have not have as much student attendance as other schools but remember we are a small fraction of the size (besides Bradley, Evansville and Drake). 

Its ideal to have large student participation at the games because it could really give the ARC an homecourt advantage.  The crowds during the NIT run offered a great advantage. 

I thought the student section was decent last night.  The community attendance was down a bit, but that shouldn't be surprising considering the weather and the start time.  My opinion the attendance was about where it should be expected with the struggles of the team. I would imagine with continued improvement and a return to success we will see the numbers go back on the rise the next few years.

Quote from: oklahomamick on February 21, 2018, 10:05:11 AM
I understand that student attendance has been low.  Valpo has a student body of roughly 4,000.  I wonder percentage wise where we stand in student attendance.  We will have not have as much student attendance as other schools but remember we are a small fraction of the size (besides Bradley, Evansville and Drake). 

Its ideal to have large student participation at the games because it could really give the ARC an homecourt advantage.  The crowds during the NIT run offered a great advantage. 

But it's not just the low attendance. It's the sitting and the lack luster cheers. Coach Lottich even called the student out on his Media Teleconference call for sitting. The team and coaches are taking notice. They have have to be worried about that in the offseason. Last season the student section was thinning but there were still a group a students that led the cheers. This group doesn't know any of the cheers. They weren't even standing when Valpo was making it's run last night in the final few minutes.

Quoteit's not too bad but I thought we'd have a little better attendance given the conference switch.

We went from a 24-win team to a losing season, so I'm sure that isn't helping. Our attendance would be down no matter what conference given that drop in wins.

Quote from: VU2014 on February 21, 2018, 10:21:30 AMThey weren't even standing when Valpo was making it's run last night in the final few minutes.

They were, at least some of the time, down the stretch.

And there were some cheers being led. Not as passionately as for some home games, even this season.

The coordination's never seemed very good between the cheerleaders (at the opposite end of the court) and the student section - maybe that could be improved.

There were some students behind me in Section DD last night leading some cheers down the stretch. But, they were out of tempo with the main student section...

There were certainly students in AA (I saw some athletes I knew, for sure), and DD. And faculty in EE. And a part-full student section behind the basket. I don't know how much you can encourage it, but concentrating some of the student bodies, energy, and noise, would probably help.

Comparing this year's average home attendance (2722) to Valpo's first year in the Horizon League (3666), this is a big drop. More so, in that year Valpo was just 9-9 in conference (only 5-4 at home, same as this year), yet attendance at the 9 home conference regular season games averaged 4137 as opposed to the home conference average this year of 2781—a difference of 1356 per game! The excitement, energy, and enthusiasm that should have been engendered by the move to a top-10 conference has been squandered. The Valpo administration has to do some deep reflection.

So what could be some possible explanations (not excuses).  I wonder how the schedule, in terms of start times and days of the week, that first year in the HL looked versus this year. How was the weather?  I know we only had 1 Saturday night home game. We had a couple late starts.  Had a couple unfavorable weather nights.

Quote from: agibson on February 21, 2018, 11:44:04 AM

Quote from: VU2014 on February 21, 2018, 10:21:30 AMThey weren't even standing when Valpo was making it's run last night in the final few minutes.

They were, at least some of the time, down the stretch.

And there were some cheers being led. Not as passionately as for some home games, even this season.

The coordination's never seemed very good between the cheerleaders (at the opposite end of the court) and the student section - maybe that could be improved.

There were some students behind me in Section DD last night leading some cheers down the stretch. But, they were out of tempo with the main student section...

There were certainly students in AA (I saw some athletes I knew, for sure), and DD. And faculty in EE. And a part-full student section behind the basket. I don't know how much you can encourage it, but concentrating some of the student bodies, energy, and noise, would probably help.

I'm curious what the reason is for not wanting to sit in the student section. Maybe it has to do with the view? Maybe it's "not cool" to sit there? Maybe the band being right on top of the students wanes on students throughout the game? If that's the case maybe "strategically" put the band right on top of the opposing teams bench in the corner there and making it loud for the opposing to team to give maybe a tiny competitive advantage? I'd also consider "forcing" students to sit in the student section if they want to get in for free. Maybe when students check-in their IDs funnel them through a separate entrance that leads them straight to the student section with a divider. 

I definitely think there is a room for improvement with the coordination with the Cheerleaders and Crusaderettes. But someone needs to teach these kids the NSFW cheers that you can always get a good chuckle from.

Quote from: valpopal on February 21, 2018, 11:45:08 AM
Comparing this year's average home attendance (2722) to Valpo's first year in the Horizon League (3666), this is a big drop. More so, in that year Valpo was just 9-9 in conference (only 5-4 at home, same as this year), yet attendance at the 9 home conference regular season games averaged 4137 as opposed to the home conference average this year of 2781—a difference of 1356 per game! The excitement, energy, and enthusiasm that should have been engendered by the move to a top-10 conference has been squandered. The Valpo administration has to do some deep reflection.

I'm also getting the sense that many of the locals are just choosing to stay at home watch on TV or ESPN3 these days. More people are following and watching Valpo Basketball then ever before but watching on TV may be more cost effective and you don't have to deal with park/weather/etc.

Quote from: valpopal on February 21, 2018, 11:45:08 AMThe Valpo administration has to do some deep reflection.

I think that's fair.

But, I'd love to see nation-wide attendance numbers. How much has the embrace of online streaming hurt attendance? We've had Horizon League Network and WVUR streaming audio for a long time, but I suspect it's becoming more fully embraced.

Or, the diversity of online entertainment options seems bigger than ever. Making a local basketball game a less relevant entertainment option.

This can affect students, and maybe a little more recently adopted, older fans as well.

Not to say that VU shouldn't think seriously about these things, or that they can't be overcome. But, I suspect there are some problems that aren't unique to VU.

Quote from: VU2014 on February 21, 2018, 12:15:18 PMI'm curious what the reason is for not wanting to sit in the student section. Maybe it has to do with the view? Maybe it's "not cool" to sit there? Maybe the band being right on top of the students wanes on students throughout the game? If that's the case maybe "strategically put the band right on top of the opposing teams bench in the corner there and making it loud for the opposing to team to give maybe a tiny competitive advantage? I'd also consider "forcing" students to sit in the student section if they want to get in for free. Maybe when students check-in their IDs funnel them through a separate entrance that leads them straight to the student section with a divider. 

It's a good question.

Some of it might be a chance for a more relaxed experience. (Hopefully) if you're in the student section it's loud the whole time, you're standing, cheering, etc. Hopefully that's a lot of fun. But, if you're there in significant part to socialize or have a conversation with your friends, etc. it may not be your scene.

I think, and hope, that some of the student promotions (free food etc.) are set up to at least encourage you to sit in the student section.

The mezzanine's so rarely full that it would seem draconian to try to _force_ students into the student section. But, probably they could more seriously encourage it.

I think there are two things that could work:

1. Get a prior commitment from students to come to the game: maybe set up int he union and have students sign up to sit in the section. make it a commitment/privilege.

2. We need to create a chain dynamic. Kids these days go where their friends go. If no one's going, no one is encouraging others to go, no matter how many incentives you post. Colleges give away free stuff ALL THE TIME and sports orientated free stuff like foam fingers are only a draw if students are already invested in games. You start with larger groups, find ways to get them to a game or two and hope that some like it and they keep coming back and then they bring friends and it spreads like that. Twitter/snapchat etc are not as effective if people aren't already paying attention or have heard others in the circle talking about it. You need butts in chairs, you need to cultivate a more dedicated fan base who you woo (the super fans if you will) and then you let social dynamics do their thing

Really idea #1 (idea #2 was too long and I didn't read it but I'm sure it's great too  :))

Sold out? I wonder how many butts will be in the seats. We're not in a position to look down on others for attendance but they barely drew 2,000 just a few weeks ago. I wonder what their attendance will actually be.

https://twitter.com/RamblersMBB/status/966406865788612608

I'd love for the ARC to return to it's near sold out days or get near an average of around 4,000 in attendance again. I'm not sure we can ever get back to that in near future. We'd probably need to become a consistent Mid-Major power and consistently make the tourney with a long run or 2 to get back to that level. We'd need the locals to come out and support the team like it use to.

When we go from where we have been the past few years and the success we achieved as compared to what we did this season, the attendance drop does not surprise me.  How many years has it been since we finished like we did this year?  I think the students react the same way.  Winning puts butts in the seats!  I would expect improvement next season.

Quote from: agibson on February 21, 2018, 12:15:35 PM

Quote from: valpopal on February 21, 2018, 11:45:08 AMThe Valpo administration has to do some deep reflection.

I think that's fair.

But, I'd love to see nation-wide attendance numbers. How much has the embrace of online streaming hurt attendance? We've had Horizon League Network and WVUR streaming audio for a long time, but I suspect it's becoming more fully embraced.

Or, the diversity of online entertainment options seems bigger than ever. Making a local basketball game a less relevant entertainment option.

This can affect students, and maybe a little more recently adopted, older fans as well.

Not to say that VU shouldn't think seriously about these things, or that they can't be overcome. But, I suspect there are some problems that aren't unique to VU.

All those things you mentioned are "challenges", but that doesn't mean they can't be overcome.  Butler (a private school similar to Valpo in size/academics) routinely has a student "standby line" when all student tickets have been claimed prior to the game.  I don't know many details, but they do seem pretty organized and engaged during games.

Quote from: zvillehaze on February 21, 2018, 02:53:55 PM
All those things you mentioned are "challenges", but that doesn't mean they can't be overcome.  Butler (a private school similar to Valpo in size/academics) routinely has a student "standby line" when all student tickets have been claimed prior to the game.  I don't know many details, but they do seem pretty organized and engaged during games.

Butler also had a similar welcome into the Big East (4-14) their first season there, so things can and likely will get better for Valpo in the MVC. 

Student attendance at games and student involvement at games has more to do with the type of student attending Valpo than anything.  I've had one child attend Butler, and I have one at Dayton right now.  Both of my kids visited Valpo as high school students.  While this is not scientific, my sense is that there aren't as many students at Valpo who enjoy sports or played sports as there are at places like Butler and Dayton.  There's not much emphasis on sports or student recreation on the Valpo campus tours.

For better or worse, Valpo doesn't seem to attract a high percentage of students who played sports in high school.  That doesn't make the students at Valpo bad people (I believe that the academics achievements of the current student body far exceeds those of the early 1980s),

I understand that places like Butler and Dayton have significant support from the local communities that probably isn't possible at Valpo. But my sense from being on both of those campuses is that they just have a higher percentage of students who like sports.  I think that's intentional in terms of student recruiting. Both Butler and Dayton have not only spent a lot on their arenas (Dayton is undergoing a $72 Million renovation), but they also put money in student rec centers.  They highlight the basketball teams on campus tours.  They highlight their student rec facilities on the campus tours.  Valpo's recreation facilities just don't measure up, and high school students who are interested in sports can see that.

For those who may think that an emphasis on sports/recreation can somehow diminish the quality of the students who apply, I can vouch for the fact that quality of the students at Butler and Dayton continues to rise.   Valpo can make the decision to attract more students who like sports, without sacrificing its strong academic reputation.  I've seen it.

I've told the story in the past but I use to host potential students for overnight visits and not having student rec center and good fitness center was a huge issue for guys. I can completely see that being a huge issue with Valpo missing out on students that are really into sports. I mean I didn't graduate too long ago and most everyone I hung out with was very into sports or participating in rec sports.

I had a friend who went to Butler during it's glory days of Final 4s and he talked about how the applications of kids applying to the school flew through the roof because kids wanted to go to a good basketball school and probably all the free advertising they received by those 2 tourney runs. I'm not going to lie it would be really cool to see Big East basketball.

I don't remember ever seeing prospective students tours checking out the ARC.

I think "Mr. Crafty" has nailed it.  I have said similar things, but he has the first-hand experience with Butler and Dayton.

The intramural participation numbers at Valpo might be a good indicator.   How many teams enter each sport in Valpo intermurals?   Dorms and frats sometimes had multiple entries back in the 70s,80s.  Are there intramural violin contests?  Fine by me, but hopefully not at the cost of intramural sports.

Are the greeks at Valpo not interested in sports either?   They tended to like sports more than other students in my days on campus.  The large percent of kids from Indiana also meant kids came to Valpo expecting basketball to be a focal point.

Also, you do send a message impclicitly to prospective students when you build a HUGE student union and HUGE library in which each has more fireplaces than the campus fitness center has treadmills.   

Spitballing here but here's my thoughts.

A) horizon league operated on a Thursday- Saturday basis. This maximized Saturday attendance figures. The Missouri valley operates more on a tv schedule, creating more late games and early week games

B) Missouri valley struggled to find an identity this year. I believe Missouri State was predicted to win the league and they really struggled. Illinois State had a great season last year and struggled this year.  I'm not positive but I don't recall a Missouri valley team bring ranked this year. When we joined the horizon league they still had their identity. A top 25 team visiting the arc will bring fans out. Hell,  a sold out game against butler would equal attendance figures from 2 games combined this year. (Offtopic, bracketology has the HL winner as a 15 seed and they're the 25th best conference this year. Gross. How far that league has fallen is remarkable)

C) valpo out of conference schedule did not create any excitement this year. The home games were brutal and the two opportunities, Purdue and northwestern,  were not really much of games.

D) more tv games/online streaming. This creates more fans and national brand recognition, and I'm guessing "viewership" is likely up this year, but more people are viewing online/tv versus in person. Have a good season or two and the newer casual fan will start trickling into the arc....the effort and money just isn't there if you're not really expecting a win

E) game day experience. I know this has been discussed ad naseum but I still believe it to be true. The game day experience at valpo is lacking. I bring people with me to games and they get bored.

It could be worse. Cleveland State's attendance has a completely plummeted since the Norris Cole days.

https://twitter.com/TheReserveMedia/status/966403020216029184
https://twitter.com/bigmacsnackwrap/status/966663215387172864

Quote from: VU2014 on February 21, 2018, 10:18:17 PMI've told the story in the past but I use to host potential students for overnight visits and not having student rec center and good fitness center was a huge issue for guys.

The fitness center isn't enormous, but it's relatively new and seems like a feature to me. Certainly more attractive now than the ARC student workout facilities were, at the time, when I was an undergrad.

I could see campus tours stopping by the fitness center and the ARC, checking out the championship banners, the trophy hall, talking about the winning tradition, the strong student athlete tradition, etc, etc. I don't know whether they do that, or not. It would probably be on the far west end of the tour, but not out of touch with e.g. Arts and Sciences, Mueller Hall (Christ College), and Guild-Memorial (still the most atmospheric dorm).

The tours should, absolutely, stop by the still rather new and shiny library (yes, with its fireplaces), the Union, the new science building, etc.

Rec intramural sports are still a going concern, certainly. There seems to be some lively competition from certain fraternities, maybe not all. I don't have a good sense of numbers, or how to compare them. But, if you're really curious I could give some raw participation numbers. (For a one-day indoor soccer tournament there were something like six teams, roughly five members a piece. I'll brag a little that my mostly-faculty team took the title! There's at least one other faculty member that does more intramurals than I do, and probably at least a couple of others who do as much as I.)

Probably not violin playing, but there are video game contests and such at the Union. And still Euchre. I'm not sure whether those go through the Rec Sports/intramural office, or not.

Quote from: elephtheria47 on February 22, 2018, 08:52:51 AMC) valpo out of conference schedule did not create any excitement this year. The home games were brutal and the two opportunities, Purdue and northwestern,  were not really much of games.

I enjoyed Utah State - it will be nice to get a Mountain West game every other year.

But, yeah, the overall non-conference home slate wasn't great. The long December road trip was rough in terms of building home attendance momentum. And the free fall (felt like it at times, at least) from the end of December sapped even some of my enthusiasm to get out to home games. I still made it to Senior Night (and seven home games altogether), but if it felt like we had more skin in the game, I probably would have made it in person (instead of online, or time shifting online, etc.) to another game or two.

A 5-4 home conference record isn't horrible - enough that even in a down season you have a decent chance of seeing a win against some very respectable competition. (And I was pleased to see us 8th in the Valley in the Pomeroy recently, even if we've nominally fallen back to 10th now. Three-way tie for 8th?). But, I'll confess that the overall mediocre performance of the team, at least in context, blunted even my enthusiasm.

Over the next couple of seasons there should be some really good conference home games - hopefully a significant step up from the Horizon League, and there were plenty of good one in those days too.

Quote from: VU2014 on February 21, 2018, 10:18:17 PMI had a friend who went to Butler during it's glory days of Final 4s and he talked about how the applications of kids applying to the school flew through the roof because kids wanted to go to a good basketball school and probably all the free advertising they received by those 2 tourney runs. I'm not going to lie it would be really cool to see Big East basketball. I don't remember ever seeing prospective students tours checking out the ARC.

The Flutie Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flutie_effect).
Valpo had a bump in applications after the '98 Sweet Sixteen run.

The game experience at the ARC has become stale.  I have only missed maybe 4-5 games in the last 25 years and I didn't go to the last 3.  It's the same experience over and over.  I'm really debating on keeping my season tickets for next year.  I had heard Tom Boyt at Valpo was to head a task force at the start of the MVC play (not before the season started) to drive attendance and put a marketing plan together to get fans to the game and introduce the fans outside of the city of Valpo.  I have to assume this has failed.

-Same songs played over and over.  The music DJ should be fired.  His choices are so out of date.
-Can't hear the PA.  I have been saying this for 10+ years on this board and nothing has changed.
-Non chairback seating is horrible.  Lower bleachers for an ave. sized man is uncomfortable.
-Parking is horrible.  New fans or first time gamers have to be confused as hell.
-No dynamic ticket prices to fill seats. 
-Out of conf home game opponents are just crap.

I could go on and on.  Valpo's game experience reminds me of Teibel's in Schererville.  The fanbase is dying off and not changing with the times.  The ARC is stuck in 1998.  There is no new fanbase coming.

Sad we are letting this go.  We are spinning our wheels on this board about it also. 

Quote from: Chairback on February 22, 2018, 08:03:59 PM
The game experience at the ARC has become stale.  I have only missed maybe 4-5 games in the last 25 years and I didn't go to the last 3.  It's the same experience over and over.  I'm really debating on keeping my season tickets for next year.  I had heard Tom Boyt at Valpo was to head a task force at the start of the MVC play (not before the season started) to drive attendance and put a marketing plan together to get fans to the game and introduce the fans outside of the city of Valpo.  I have to assume this has failed.

-Same songs played over and over.  The music DJ should be fired.  His choices are so out of date.
-Can't hear the PA.  I have been saying this for 10+ years on this board and nothing has changed.
-Non chairback seating is horrible.  Lower bleachers for an ave. sized man is uncomfortable.
-Parking is horrible.  New fans or first time gamers have to be confused as hell.
-No dynamic ticket prices to fill seats. 
-Out of conf home game opponents are just crap.

I could go on and on.  Valpo's game experience reminds me of Teibel's in Schererville.  The fanbase is dying off and not changing with the times.  The ARC is stuck in 1998.  There is no new fanbase coming.

Sad we are letting this go.  We are spinning our wheels on this board about it also.

Wow.

Point out game day deficiencies all you want, bud don't you dare start critiquing Teibels! 8-)

What the ARC needs is more Red Panda!

Quote from the ESPN.com article on possible future conference mate GCU, from their AD:

"It's a facilities battle in recruiting now," Vaught said. "And for a mid-major, we have it as good as anybody."

Quote from: VULB#62 on February 22, 2018, 11:28:13 PM

Quote from: Chairback on February 22, 2018, 08:03:59 PM
The game experience at the ARC has become stale.  I have only missed maybe 4-5 games in the last 25 years and I didn't go to the last 3.  It's the same experience over and over.  I'm really debating on keeping my season tickets for next year.  I had heard Tom Boyt at Valpo was to head a task force at the start of the MVC play (not before the season started) to drive attendance and put a marketing plan together to get fans to the game and introduce the fans outside of the city of Valpo.  I have to assume this has failed.

-Same songs played over and over.  The music DJ should be fired.  His choices are so out of date.
-Can't hear the PA.  I have been saying this for 10+ years on this board and nothing has changed.
-Non chairback seating is horrible.  Lower bleachers for an ave. sized man is uncomfortable.
-Parking is horrible.  New fans or first time gamers have to be confused as hell.
-No dynamic ticket prices to fill seats. 
-Out of conf home game opponents are just crap.

I could go on and on.  Valpo's game experience reminds me of Teibel's in Schererville.  The fanbase is dying off and not changing with the times.  The ARC is stuck in 1998.  There is no new fanbase coming.

Sad we are letting this go.  We are spinning our wheels on this board about it also.

Wow.

Please elaborate "wow".

Merely my reaction to Chairback's detailed, summary indictment of the ARC coming from a long-standing, bleeds Brown & Gold, Valpo BB fan.  He says it all.

I thought this analogy was eye-opening:

"Valpo's game experience reminds me of Teibel's in Schererville.  The fanbase is [literally] dying off and not changing with the times.  The ARC is stuck in 1998.  There is no new fanbase coming."

Love Professor Boyt. One of my favorite teachers that I've ever had and a great man. Tom has had an incredible career and is a true leader but I'm not sure I'd choose him to lead a marketing campaign.

They needed to be more targeted with their marketing effort. They should be marketing directly to the 219. Valpo has a really tough task because there are so many in-state schools.

(https://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/area-codes/maps/219-area-code-map.jpg)

To be honest what might be more important then marketing is investing in improving the ARC:
-comfortable chairback seating around the 3 side of the court (other then the student section)
-improve concessions. Move them off the main floor of the court and make them quicker
-make it not such a hassle to attend a game for the casual fan (parking)
-improve the dated concourse
-fix the speakers system (improve the music choices and restore the pep band to it's glory days)

I don't even know why I talk about it anymore because it's like shouting into the wind with this administration. Even the Student Section Thread got shut down because a few individuals didn't want to hear it.

(https://i.imgur.com/oYueouO.gif)

Was a reason ever given why the Student Section thread was shut down?

Can we get an estimate on how much each of these things (as well as AC for the ARC) would cost? It could help us target donations so that we can start off with small improvements while moving towards bigger ones and show recruits we're serious about competing at this level. This idea that we have to do it all at once or wait until building X Y or Z is built isn't productive. The seating the PA system the music and pep band  These are all things that could be addressed before the rec center and at a  fairly cheap cost relative to other university projects.

Quote from: VUGrad1314 on February 23, 2018, 01:52:19 PM
Can we get an estimate on how much each of these things (as well as AC for the ARC) would cost? It could help us target donations so that we can start off with small improvements while moving towards bigger ones and show recruits we're serious about competing at this level. This idea that we have to do it all at once or wait until building X Y or Z is built isn't productive. The seating the PA system the music and pep band  These are all things that could be addressed before the rec center and at a  fairly cheap cost relative to other university projects.

Getting central AC in the ARC wouldn't be cheap and that's probably the last thing you'd add to the ARC after renovating the Arena. Renovations seems so far down the priority list of this Administration.

Quote from: mj on February 23, 2018, 01:43:00 PM
Was a reason ever given why the Student Section thread was shut down?

Accidental lock. Reopened.

Valpo had better attendance for all of our home games compared to the White Sox game the other day haha

https://twitter.com/sportingnews/status/983811257684852737
https://twitter.com/sportingnews/status/983775642394165248