I was curious about the trending of the Valpo Basketball performance in the post-Drew era. I wanted to visually see the performance of the team both in Conference and overall. Note that 2016-17 was Alec's senior year and the final year in the Horizon League. I compiled the conference finish along with the Preseason poll. A few striking notes:
1) Best conference record in the MVC is 9-9
2) Conference Win % since joining the MVC is .389
3) Overall Win % since joinging the MVC is .456
Not sure if I attached the picture the most efficient way. Did my best.
That is an excellent graphic. Take away year 1, and it's a sadder story than I thought.
Lots of injuries and other crazy things have happened during that time. More than other schools? Not sure. It seems like there was always someone missing, things would get better and the next batch of players are the ones who wanted to be here and were good players.
I'm still waiting.
What's our % if you take out the non D1 victories? We had a lot of them.
To me this press conference was the start of the downfall. Stagnant offense that has carried on for years.
https://youtu.be/CIWO3dxVnO8
Quote from: Chairback on February 27, 2022, 07:18:42 PM
What's our % if you take out the non D1 victories? We had a lot of them.
We played 9 such games in the last 5 years (10 in the last six year). Thankfully we won them all in that span unless I missed one. Here are our win %'s excluding those:
2016-17 0.719
2017-18 0.433
2018-19 0.419
2019-20 0.529
2020-21 0.308
2021-22 0.393
All Years 0.475
Last 5yrs 0.423
I have a statement I want to make but the current threads were not quite the exact medium. I went back and eventually settled on this one. I probably could have found an even better one, but what the heck, this'll do.
Isn't it a crying shame that this forum has reawakened after two years of gradual participatory decline. And the impetus is all, unfortunately, negative.
When I went into lurking mode two years ago because of the stupid decision to cut MSO and MT (I still cringe), the threads were vibrant, regardless of the sport. MBB game day threads were 2-3+ pages deep. Every game. The game threads were posted 2-3 days in advance. Poster analyses were always fun to read.
I
By the time I rejoined a few months ago, that spirit had almost evaporated. Sometimes, days went by with only a post or two on what would have been a great topic. This season, some game threads weren't even started until after the tip.
Folks, that is an in-your-face barometer of the alumni community mental state of mind.
This forum is what I believe to be a very accurate microcosm of a very loyal alum and supporter community that wants Valpo to be successful and prosper. And it is DOWN, way DOWN. I only hope the powers that be have the sense to monitor this very important source of feedback. And it's not just the jock thing. Read the conversations on the strategic plan, enrollment, Moody ratings, and other Valpo non-athletic topics. The people on this board are much more than sports fanatics, they are people who give a damn about Valpo. There are some brilliant assessments coming through. Padilla and Smart, if they are worth their salaries should at least listen if not pay close attention.
Valpo, if you want to take a real time pulse of your constituency, I am not aware of anything as spot on as this forum.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2023, 06:26:47 PMThis forum is what I believe to be a very accurate microcosm of a very loyal alum and supporter community that wants Valpo to be successful and prosper. And it is DOWN, way DOWN. I only hope the powers that be have the sense to monitor this very important source of feedback. And it's not just the jock thing. Read the conversations on the strategic plan, enrollment, Moody ratings, and other Valpo non-athletic topics. The people on this board are much more than sports fanatics, they are people who give a damn about Valpo. There are some brilliant assessments coming through. Padilla and Smart, if they are worth their salaries should at least listen if not pay close attention.
Valpo, if you want to take a real time pulse of your constituency, I am not aware of anything as spot on as this forum.
:thumbsup:
Thank you for your many contributions.
Also, was it just a coincidence that you stole the glass half full thing from Milanmiracle after he departed then posted right after him on the recent MVCFans Lottich thread? Hmmmm?
IDK, I've used that Avatar since I joined around 2011. Did a screen shot off a tee shirt that I liked ;D
Well my thanks to both you and Milan for your spot on help in explaining to MVC fans the many problems we are facing. Hopefully they can show some patience if we can show some wisdom.
Actually seeing Milanmiracle on the MVC forum yesterday was quite a surprise. He is missed.
"What's our % if you take out the non D1 victories? We had a lot of them. [/size]To me this press conference was the start of the downfall. Stagnant offense that has carried on for years."
Yup ... par for the course. At the time, many of us chalked it up to growing pains for a new head coach. Butbott, alas, here we are. Progressing "nicely" ... common denominator = ML making excuses. At this time, making excused for being a top seed. Whether Valpo is the top seed or a bottom feeder, there's excuses + excuses + excuses. One difference, however, is that ML didn't have to address if they were deserving of an NIL bid this year ... :-X
Quote from: Dr. T on March 10, 2023, 10:16:41 PM"What's our % if you take out the non D1 victories? We had a lot of them. To me this press conference was the start of the downfall. Stagnant offense that has carried on for years."
Yup ... par for the course. At the time, many of us chalked it up to growing pains for a new head coach. Butbott, alas, here we are. Progressing "nicely" ... common denominator = ML making excuses. At this time, making excused for being a top seed. Whether Valpo is the top seed or a bottom feeder, there's excuses + excuses + excuses. One difference, however, is that ML didn't have to address if they were deserving of an NIL bid this year ...
Copy/pasting this from MVCFans:
KenPom/Attendance
'11 95 / 3362
'12 138 / 3383
'13 65 / 3173
'14 163 / 2833
'15 64 / 3066
'16 42 / 3572
[Lottich]
'17 104 / 3086
'18 150 / 2722
'19 220 / 2611
'20 146 / 2797
'21 193 / na
'22 202 / 1758
'23 289 / 1625
Nuff said I guess. Quite sad. Truthfully I am skeptical of the numbers being that high since 2019. That sure correlates solidly and the vast majority are non-students. Students are a very small, but visible and symbolic portion of the game atmosphere within those stats.
Tough to turn around the trend, but not impossible. The reality is you have to go big in your hire to get the top kids who can change that trajectory. Is paying two head coaches the way to go? Or is there a win-win that can be worked out?
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2023, 08:21:28 PM
Actually seeing Milanmiracle on the MVC forum yesterday was quite a surprise. He is missed.
I recall regularly accusing MM of being too negative and pessimistic. He countered that he would rather be surprised by success than devastated by failure. Lesson learned for yours truly.
Quote from: wh on March 11, 2023, 03:27:36 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2023, 08:21:28 PM
Actually seeing Milanmiracle on the MVC forum yesterday was quite a surprise. He is missed.
I recall regularly accusing MM of being too negative and pessimistic. He countered that he would rather be surprised by success than devastated by failure. Lesson learned for yours truly.
I'll go a bit further and reflect that the final broken straw for Milanmiracle was the row between him and a3uge about then Horizon League coach of year Brian Wardle and the Green Bay player pants crapping issue. Milan and I were pro Wardle (more or less ;)) and I think it is now clear that he has become one of the best coaches in the Valley who outmaneuvers Lottich on a regular basis.
Attendance dropped by 50% , enrollment (grad / post grad ) dropped by 45% , worse product on floor.
Not rocket science
If Valpo wasn't going to invest in the proper coach and facilities they should have never joined the Valley.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: justducky on March 11, 2023, 05:03:18 PMand I think it is now clear that he has become one of the best coaches in the Valley who outmaneuvers Lottich on a regular basis.
My opinion is that every coach in the Missouri Valley has outmaneuvered Lottich this past season except for maybe Pedon at Illinois State and Ragland at Evansville.
Here is something interesting:
Indiana State, Southern Illinois, UIC, Missouri State, Evansville, and Illinois State have longer droughts than we do in making the NCAA.
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 19, 2023, 09:39:25 AM
Here is something interesting:
Indiana State, Southern Illinois, UIC, Missouri State, Evansville, and Illinois State have longer droughts than we do in making the NCAA.
IndyValpo, I'm not putting it down your interesting point when I say that I'm not sure if that's the company VU wants to be in. Rather, it may reinforce the notion that there are relevant mid-majors and, well, irrelevant mid-majors, at least when it comes to being in the conversation for post-season tourney bids. After some 20 years of being relevant, Valpo finds itself rather quickly and decisively slipping into that second tier.
During that 20 year period of relevance, I think that most fans assumed that a losing season or even .500ish season was likely to be a one-off, to be followed by a rebound.
I know that many focus on Coach Lottich as the main source of that decline, and I'd have to agree. But I do wonder, along with others, whether the move to the MVC is a contributing factor. I remember thinking when the move was made, hmmm...why not stay in a solid league where you've been consistently competitive? That said, I will let closer followers of the college game overall speculate on whether recent VU teams would've faired noticeably better in the Horizon League.
That was my thought as well, David. We're talking fish and pond sizes here. FDU, coming out of the NEC is like Valpo coming out of the Mid-Con. Well deserved, but in each case, the NCAAT qualification was automatic. Going to the MVC, Valpo took a gamble that it could duplicate their previous success in moving up. But this time the pond was much bigger and the fish swimming in it had much bigger teeth as well.
In retrospect, Valpo should have studied the Evansville experience more carefully. They, too, came into the MVC with a great winning tradition and high expectations. But they, like Valpo, are a smaller private university with a smaller alum base, smaller cash pool to draw from, a smaller enrollment than the new conference average, and the larger schools had a demonstrated history of much higher performance over time. But what about Loyola? Loyola got in before us and we were pissed cuz we had a better record in the HL. Again in retrospect, though private, Loyola did not have the same profile. It had a large alum base, larger enrollment, and had demonstrated an ability to pump bucks into athletics — none of which either E'Ville or Valpo has ever been able to demonstrate - hell, EU dropped football !!.
It's the Peter Principle: one aspires/moves up to their eventual level of incompetence. Smart people understand that, are careful not to cave into that siren song, and stop short of driving over that cliff. Interestingly, I fear that Loyola and Butler both lost that smartness and have Peter Principled themselves into irrelevance. But unlike Valpo and E'Ville, both those schools have enough money to buy their way out.
Going back to your question. Lottich and MBB had a much better chance for winning seasons in the HL than the MVC and Valpo would have had a better chance of a bid to the dance over the last six years had we stayed. And winning attracts recruits as well as fans to games (which has been clearly demonstrated recently). Hey, unfortunately, it is what it is.
62 - Valpo joined the MVC because of money and an inept Horizon league commissioner. Valparaiso made the right move, the honest issue is that the MVC made the wrong move to invite Valpo. Valpo is currently not committed to compete in the MVC.
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 19, 2023, 05:33:28 PM
62 - Valpo joined the MVC because of money and an inept Horizon league commissioner. Valparaiso made the right move, the honest issue is that the MVC made the wrong move to invite Valpo. Valpo is currently not committed to compete in the MVC.
I'm with you SC on the MVC's decision. And I agree the HL was/is a poorly run conference. But I think it's rated higher than the NEC, isn't it? But what confuses me is what I bolded. Valpo had to immediately plow $600k into new video operations. So what money? TV contracts? The MVC is now a one-bid conference with 12 members splitting the pot. How is that different from the HL in terms of a financial windfall?
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 19, 2023, 05:01:07 PMThat was my thought as well, David. We're talking fish and pond sizes here. FDU, coming out of the NEC is like Valpo coming out of the Mid-Con. Well deserved, but in each case, the NCAAT qualification was automatic. Going to the MVC, Valpo took a gamble that it could duplicate their previous success in moving up. But this time the pond was much bigger and the fish swimming in it had much bigger teeth as well. In retrospect, Valpo should have studied the Evansville experience more carefully. They, too, came into the MVC with a great winning tradition and high expectations. But they, like Valpo, are a smaller private university with a smaller alum base, smaller cash pool to draw from, a smaller enrollment than the new conference average, and the larger schools had a demonstrated history of much higher performance over time. But what about Loyola? Loyola got in before us and we were pissed cuz we had a better record in the HL. Again in retrospect, though private, Loyola did not have the same profile. It had a large alum base, larger enrollment, and had demonstrated an ability to pump bucks into athletics — none of which either E'Ville or Valpo has ever been able to demonstrate - hell, EU dropped football !!. It's the Peter Principle: one aspires/moves up to their eventual level of incompetence. Smart people understand that, are careful not to cave into that siren song, and stop short of driving over that cliff. Interestingly, I fear that Loyola and Butler both lost that smartness and have Peter Principled themselves into irrelevance. But unlike Valpo and E'Ville, both those schools have enough money to buy their way out. Going back to your question. Lottich and MBB had a much better chance for winning seasons in the HL than the MVC and Valpo would have had a better chance of a bid to the dance over the last six years had we stayed. And winning attracts recruits as well as fans to games (which has been clearly demonstrated recently). Hey, unfortunately, it is what it is.
I think all had one thing in common. Coach leaves and talent is lessened right at the same time of the move.
62 - not talking about the NEC. also, Loyola went to the FF and Sweet 16 so they go extra cash for that. The other issue to consider was that Valpo was in better financial shape 7 years ago
Regarding $600k for video and $700k payout for a new coach over a 6 year period - this is what it takes to compete in D1.
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 19, 2023, 08:11:57 PM
62 - not talking about the NEC. also, Loyola went to the FF and Sweet 16 so they go extra cash for that.
Fugetabout the NEC. Still don't follow you. How did Valpo go to the the MVC for the money? What money? The Loyola F4 was AFTER we joined and when we joined there were no guarantees of anything other than an auto bid with, perhaps, a better cede than 15 or 16.
Again....We easily handled the MVC teams when we were in the Horizon. Most were blowouts. Murray had Payne (point guard Suns) We smoked them by 34 points. Drake was a bottom feeder for 10 years after their March Madness run in 08. Have the right coach/coaching staff in place wins/ recruites follow, fan interest is there. Facilities and money are a factor. Those follow with wins. Butler and Loyola have both those things and had lousy seasons. DePaul as well. If Ragland turns around Aces, the fans will pack the Ford Center.
62 - if the goal is to be better which I always hope is the case, then the move to the MVC, an upgrade from the Horizon, makes sense. If you look at the whole picture, overall revenue (TV, exposure, success in sports) should increase. Valpo made the right move to move up, but there is also a financial commitment, likely an increase, to be successful. As they say, to make money you have to be smart and invest, or to be successful you have to provide some level of commitment and energy.
Right now, Valpo looks like leechers in the MVC, as expressed in responses on the MVC message board.
Quote from: David81 on March 19, 2023, 03:42:07 PMBut I do wonder, along with others, whether the move to the MVC is a contributing factor. I remember thinking when the move was made, hmmm...why not stay in a solid league where you've been consistently competitive? T
The problem with blaming the conference move for the decline is debunked by looking at the closing standing from this season. Belmont and Murray State came from a far worse conference then the Horizon yet easily did better than our Beacons, who were loading with older, very experienced players versus say, a Murray team that added 10 new players and, a new coach and still did better than us.
As for staying in the Horizon League, the old saying says who you are is better represented by who your friends are or who you hang around with. So does Valpo look better hanging with Cleveland State, Youngstown State, IUPUI and Purdue Fort Wayne or Bradley, Drake, UIC and Belmont?
It's not even close.
Quote from: vu72 on March 20, 2023, 08:31:27 AM
Quote from: David81 on March 19, 2023, 03:42:07 PMBut I do wonder, along with others, whether the move to the MVC is a contributing factor. I remember thinking when the move was made, hmmm...why not stay in a solid league where you've been consistently competitive? T
The problem with blaming the conference move for the decline is debunked by looking at the closing standing from this season. Belmont and Murray State came from a far worse conference then the Horizon yet easily did better than our Beacons, who were loading with older, very experienced players versus say, a Murray team that added 10 new players and, a new coach and still did better than us.
As for staying in the Horizon League, the old saying says who you are is better represented by who your friends are or who you hang around with. So does Valpo look better hanging with Cleveland State, Youngstown State, IUPUI and Purdue Fort Wayne or Bradley, Drake, UIC and Belmont?
It's not even close.
Well, I'd point out that I wasn't "blaming" the conference move for the program decline, but rather suggesting it as a contributing factor, while stating in my full comment that coaching appears to be the main source of the decline.
The success of Belmont and Murray State in year 1 of their move neither supports nor refutes my suggestion, but it does indicate — to the extent that one year's record is an indicator — that they were ready for the move. (Belmont has been making its move academically as well, as a very good, independent Christian private university in Nashville, so this might be part of an all-around push for greater visibility.)
I agree 100% that the Valley schools make for shinier athletic neighbors than the Horizon schools, and the league includes more academic peer schools as well. But if VU lacks the resources to compete in the MVC, then the better company doesn't matter. And right now the MBB program is teetering on the brink of becoming regular cannon fodder for the stronger teams.
However, at least in basketball, sometimes a combo of the right coaching and the addition of 1-2 special players can turn things around quickly, so generically speaking, there's still hope.
Perhaps you are right about one added player. Would we have done better if Clay had stayed or if Mr. Basketball Oklahoma had stayed? I would say so but, they didn't and that is on the coach, as is losing all those close games.
It has been said that we don't have the resources because we are a small school. Pray tell, how does the conference best two teams do it then?
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 20, 2023, 06:01:05 AM
62 - if the goal is to be better which I always hope is the case, then the move to the MVC, an upgrade from the Horizon, makes sense. If you look at the whole picture, overall revenue (TV, exposure, success in sports) should increase. Valpo made the right move to move up, but there is also a financial commitment, likely an increase, to be successful. As they say, to make money you have to be smart and invest, or to be successful you have to provide some level of commitment and energy.
Right now, Valpo looks like leechers in the MVC, as expressed in responses on the MVC message board.
Fully agree with the bolded statements, SC. I can't speak for David, but in responding to his memory of what he thought at the time, I, too, had the same question going through my head. Basically, I wondered if VU really had the available funding and resolve to make a forceful (i.e., all-in commitment ) move to the MVC. And from the outset, that suspicion grew. It is one that you continually cite as well and has been an ongoing theme. It comes down to an MVC taste on a HL budget.
And 72, neither David nor I blamed the conference move for the current state of affairs. It isn't the MVC's fault we are where we are. We questioned whether,
after being accepted, Valpo would (or could) rise to the occasion. Clearly, we haven't. The two newest additions, Belmont and Murray, despite coming from the OVC, already had much of what we lacked in terms of facilities and commitment. Their competitiveness out of the blocks certainly showed that. That should have been us back in 2017.
I believe we have put alot of money into our overall athletic program since we joined the MVC Misplaced where it was spent? I am not sure although I know we had to make some improvements to get in the Valley. There were major improvements in the technical aspect of television capabilities, practice facilities, A/C, major improvements to the baseball field and some others. The disappointing part is that major improvements to the ARC have not yet come to fruition. I believe that our men's b-ball budget is about in the middle of the pack in the MVC Let's hope we are close to the money needed for the ARC project, whatever that might entail. We must remember that it has taken years and in some cases decades, for some mid-major schools to get new or improved facilities. We have just begun our journey in the upper echelon's of mid-major competion/conference. Perhaps we will be surprised one of these days. I sure hope so. Look how long it ltook Butler to improve Hinkle. That place, while an iconic structure, was a hole before they started to put money into it. As an example, their men's restrooms not only had latrine urinals, but they were porcelain. And how many years were a significant portion of their seating wooden bleachers with no backs? In some cases I think some of us are our getting priorities mixed up.
Quote from: vu72 on March 20, 2023, 09:49:42 AM
Perhaps you are right about one added player. Would we have done better if Clay had stayed or if Mr. Basketball Oklahoma had stayed? I would say so but, they didn't and that is on the coach, as is losing all those close games.
It has been said that we don't have the resources because we are a small school. Pray tell, how does the conference best two teams do it then?
Murray, with 10 xfers, a new coach and a winning conference record, underscores this. Belmont, finding ways to win in close games, that got them 4th place in the standings and a 21 win season, underscores this.
Well here is some news! Today's NW Indiana Times. Clearly Padilla is not shying away from his plan.
https://www.nwitimes.com/jose-padilla-and-marie-foster-bruns-a-beacon-for-a-region-realized/article_2b7f4749-f00a-57fb-bca4-338774c14cd0.html
For those without a subscription, this is part of what was written by Padilla and the newly appointed VP of Advancement:
This includes potential investments in newly constructed modern facilities for the College of Nursing and Health Professions (CoNHP) and an athletics arena. The CoNHP building will contribute to the education of Valpo students while meeting the state's healthcare needs and strengthening the region's economy. It will house an existing medical practice and therefore integrate the healthcare community into Valpo's campus. Because many CoNHP graduates are employed and serve within underserved areas of the state, it will help meet Indiana's dire shortage of nurses, physician assistants, and other healthcare professionals.
The second building project will be a state-of-the-art athletics complex with an arena to serve Valparaiso University and the Northwest Indiana. This arena will be a destination for conventions, concerts, and events, similar to the former Star Plaza Theatre. This will enhance the quality of life and be an economic driver in Valparaiso and the surrounding communities. It will ideally be a gathering place for the region.
The word "potential" stands out like the old inflatable Crusader in that first sentence.
If the school can't buy out a coach who's clearly outlasted his welcome, I'm not sure how the fantasy of funding for upgrades elsewhere can be taken seriously.
If the school isn't considering the buyout then there are issues elsewhere.
I would think that if Padilla felt it was a very long shot, he wouldn't be broadcasting his pending failure via an news piece. I like the fact that the mayor is on board, it might signal some sort of possible joint venture--who knows.
Costas will be mayor after the next election, so we'll see if he's on board.
Quote from: vu72 on March 20, 2023, 09:49:42 AM
Perhaps you are right about one added player. Would we have done better if Clay had stayed or if Mr. Basketball Oklahoma had stayed? I would say so but, they didn't and that is on the coach, as is losing all those close games.
It has been said that we don't have the resources because we are a small school. Pray tell, how does the conference best two teams do it then?
Good points on the transfers and close games...that's where coaching comes in, too.
For me, the signature event was JFL's departure. It not only meant losing an impact player of conference MVP caliber, but also signaled to others that VU had become a starter school for guys who had proven themselves and now had more options. After breathlessly proclaiming that he'd be back after the great 2020 MVC tourney run, I think his transfer was a huge letdown. But right around then, folks suddenly had something else much bigger to contend with our lives, so the emotional impact was muted.
Good question about Drake and Bradley. They are peer institutions. I know that Drake has a larger enrollment overall, and its law school managed to avoid the bloodletting in legal education that VU Law sadly could not avoid. So they're probably doing better overall. Plus, of course, Drake has its own magical Homer+Bryce type of combo, at least for now! I'm less familiar with Bradley, but presuming it's in better financial shape than Valpo at this moment.
Just to clarify for those without subscriptions, the NWI Times statement by Padilla about potential future projects is not a news story but an editorial, part of the administration's current PR campaign. I applaud the words, and I think the content sounds great.
Nevertheless, just like the president's original statement on the morning of Feb. 8 about the paintings sale, which was a PR release to get ahead of the news report in the Tribune published that day, it is possible this commentary by Padilla also might be timed to get ahead of another property-related announcement that has been rumored for weeks among faculty, in the local Valparaiso community, and in conversations with journalists. I anticipate updates, and look forward with curiosity to hearing more.
Quote from: David81 on March 20, 2023, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: vu72 on March 20, 2023, 09:49:42 AM
Perhaps you are right about one added player. Would we have done better if Clay had stayed or if Mr. Basketball Oklahoma had stayed? I would say so but, they didn't and that is on the coach, as is losing all those close games.
It has been said that we don't have the resources because we are a small school. Pray tell, how does the conference best two teams do it then?
Good points on the transfers and close games...that's where coaching comes in, too.
For me, the signature event was JFL's departure. It not only meant losing an impact player of conference MVP caliber, but also signaled to others that VU had become a starter school for guys who had proven themselves and now had more options. After breathlessly proclaiming that he'd be back after the great 2020 MVC tourney run, I think his transfer was a huge letdown. But right around then, folks suddenly had something else much bigger to contend with our lives, so the emotional impact was muted.
Good question about Drake and Bradley. They are peer institutions. I know that Drake has a larger enrollment overall, and its law school managed to avoid the bloodletting in legal education that VU Law sadly could not avoid. So they're probably doing better overall. Plus, of course, Drake has its own magical Homer+Bryce type of combo, at least for now! I'm less familiar with Bradley, but presuming it's in better financial shape than Valpo at this moment.
From Wiki (so these are more approximations than 100% fact)
BRADLEY (Valpo)
UGs: 4,636 (2,500) Gs: 1,293 (400)
ENDOW: $325 million ($364.5million)
ACCEPT RATE: 76% (93%)
TUIT/FEES: $37,800 ($44,796)
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 20, 2023, 12:55:03 PM
Quote from: David81 on March 20, 2023, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: vu72 on March 20, 2023, 09:49:42 AM
Perhaps you are right about one added player. Would we have done better if Clay had stayed or if Mr. Basketball Oklahoma had stayed? I would say so but, they didn't and that is on the coach, as is losing all those close games.
It has been said that we don't have the resources because we are a small school. Pray tell, how does the conference best two teams do it then?
Good points on the transfers and close games...that's where coaching comes in, too.
For me, the signature event was JFL's departure. It not only meant losing an impact player of conference MVP caliber, but also signaled to others that VU had become a starter school for guys who had proven themselves and now had more options. After breathlessly proclaiming that he'd be back after the great 2020 MVC tourney run, I think his transfer was a huge letdown. But right around then, folks suddenly had something else much bigger to contend with our lives, so the emotional impact was muted.
Good question about Drake and Bradley. They are peer institutions. I know that Drake has a larger enrollment overall, and its law school managed to avoid the bloodletting in legal education that VU Law sadly could not avoid. So they're probably doing better overall. Plus, of course, Drake has its own magical Homer+Bryce type of combo, at least for now! I'm less familiar with Bradley, but presuming it's in better financial shape than Valpo at this moment.
From Wiki (so these are more approximations than 100% fact)
BRADLEY (Valpo)
UGs: 4,636 (2,500) Gs: 1,293 (400)
ENDOW: $325 million ($255 million)
ACCEPT RATE: 76% (93%)
TUIT/FEES: $37,800 ($44,796)
This could be a more current total endowment for Valpo, at least let's hope so:
"The university's endowment stands at $364.5 million."
If so, it would blow Bradley's endowment dollars per student ratio away.
Valparaiso University president addresses new strategic plan, overcoming enrollment and other challenges
Tuesday, October 4, 2022 11:24 AM
https://indianaeconomicdigest.net/Content/Default/Major-Indiana-News/Article/Valparaiso-University-president-addresses-new-strategic-plan-overcoming-enrollment-and-other-challenges/-3/5308/112454
Thanks. I fixed my initial number. The link to the article was welcome information as well. I was initially under the perception that a new medical sciences building would be on campus, but apparently it'll be in Chicago. That's thinking a bit out of the box and I'm ok with that.
But thinking about thinking outside the box, I remember a number of athletes (basketball and football, I think) who were studying in that field and am wondering if we'd lose a health sciences oriented student athlete because of the distance. And what about room & board? But that's not even in the drawing board stage yet, so we can concentrate on more real plans.
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 20, 2023, 06:01:05 AM
Right now, Valpo looks like leechers in the MVC, as expressed in responses on the MVC message board.
Even if it's true, I take personal offense to fans from other MVC programs calling Valpo leachers. If I so chose, I could write an essay about the lack of production from several "old guard" MVC programs since we joined the party 6 years ago. People need to worry about themselves.
How about this. Southern Indiana University, the largest high school in indiana, joined division I this year in the OVC. They finished .500 and played in the CBI. GO VU Leachers!
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Quote from: VULB#62 on March 20, 2023, 12:55:03 PM
Quote from: David81 on March 20, 2023, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: vu72 on March 20, 2023, 09:49:42 AM
Perhaps you are right about one added player. Would we have done better if Clay had stayed or if Mr. Basketball Oklahoma had stayed? I would say so but, they didn't and that is on the coach, as is losing all those close games.
It has been said that we don't have the resources because we are a small school. Pray tell, how does the conference best two teams do it then?
Good points on the transfers and close games...that's where coaching comes in, too.
For me, the signature event was JFL's departure. It not only meant losing an impact player of conference MVP caliber, but also signaled to others that VU had become a starter school for guys who had proven themselves and now had more options. After breathlessly proclaiming that he'd be back after the great 2020 MVC tourney run, I think his transfer was a huge letdown. But right around then, folks suddenly had something else much bigger to contend with our lives, so the emotional impact was muted.
Good question about Drake and Bradley. They are peer institutions. I know that Drake has a larger enrollment overall, and its law school managed to avoid the bloodletting in legal education that VU Law sadly could not avoid. So they're probably doing better overall. Plus, of course, Drake has its own magical Homer+Bryce type of combo, at least for now! I'm less familiar with Bradley, but presuming it's in better financial shape than Valpo at this moment.
From Wiki (so these are more approximations than 100% fact)
BRADLEY (Valpo)
UGs: 4,636 (2,500) Gs: 1,293 (400)
ENDOW: $325 million ($364.5million)
ACCEPT RATE: 76% (93%)
TUIT/FEES: $37,800 ($44,796)
I'm looking at the graduate enrollment at Bradley. It looks they offer a slew of vocationally-oriented masters degree programs, including a good number of online offerings. That's likely to be a lot of folks paying sticker price or close to it, with their own income, savings, loans, and maybe employer subsidies. Revenue generators.
Quote from: David81 on March 20, 2023, 11:11:06 PMI'm looking at the graduate enrollment at Bradley. It looks they offer a slew of vocationally-oriented masters degree programs, including a good number of online offerings. That's likely to be a lot of folks paying sticker price or close to it, with their own income, savings, loans, and maybe employer subsidies. Revenue generators.
The Peoria area has 10 Caterpillar Inc. plants. They have always had a great relationship with Bradley for educating their management staff. I remember talking to a Caterpillar manager and he told me about all the classes and degrees that he had taken and earned through Bradley and it was simply amazing to me.
The video you posted must be old as it shows us third from the bottom but only a negligible difference between us and the middle of the pack. Illinois State is proving that spending money doesn't automatically translate into wins.
These are the budgets that were uploaded to the government website last week. For MBB (video on previous page), we are 3rd from the bottom. Here's the Athletics budgets, we're 2nd from the bottom:
Further clarification if Im reading those two videos correctly: Valpo is next to last in terms of total ATHLETIC REVENUE ahead of only Evansville. If you remove FB revenue, Evansville moves ahead of us and Murray drops below, but we are still second from the bottom.
We are third from the bottom in terms of BASKETBALL BUDGET exceeding only UIC and SIU.
Our current BB budget would place us only at 5th in our former home, the HL.
This is my fault since I mixed up the two videos in my head on the previous page when posting, so here's the accurate info after pausing and double-checking both videos in separate tabs:
Men's basketball budget: 10th MVC ahead of UIC & SIU, 180th nationally. That video's on the previous page.
Athletic revenues: 11th MVC ahead of UE for overall revenues. 11th MVC ahead of Murray for non-FB revenues. That video's on the top of this page.
Quote from: may know on March 21, 2023, 11:00:16 AM
This is my fault since I mixed up the two videos in my head on the previous page when posting, so here's the accurate info after pausing and double-checking both videos in separate tabs:
Men's basketball budget: 10th MVC ahead of UIC & SIU, 180th nationally. That video's on the previous page.
Athletic revenues: 11th MVC ahead of UE for overall revenues. 11th MVC ahead of Murray for non-FB revenues. That video's on the top of this page.
Yep, we're on the same page now.
In terms of BB budget, here is another observation. The two beneath us are public institutions with full rides valued lower than Valpo's private tuition, R&B, etc., (the highest among privates in the MVC, I believe). That means, if you disregard the scholarship expense line on all three, we are dead last in spending actual, real money on our program. Does that make sense?
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Those numbers don't remove the discrepancy in scholarships between schools (tuition, R&B, etc), so the actual $ spent on MBB likely drops us to 12th.
So how about all MVC privates? Lets see.
Bradley 4331 UGs. TUIT $36,360. BB Budget $3.41 million. Overall MVC BB Budget rank: #3
Drake 4991 UGs. TUIT $45,912. BB Budget $3.34 million. Overall MVC BB Budget rank #4
Belmont 6000 UGs. TUIT $38,430. BB Budget $3.33 million. Overall MVC BB Budget rank #5
E'ville 1,796 UGs. TUIT $41,336. BB Budget $2.94 million. Overall MVC BB Budget rank. #7
Valpo 2500 UGs. TUIT $44,796. BB Budget $2.6 million. Overall MVC BB Budget rank #10
The median is $3.01 million, the mean is $3.12 million. Excluding Valpo from the calculation: Median = $3.18 million, Mean = $3.25 million. Just to get to the private median, Valpo would require an influx of $400k annually.
One conclusion of this little exercise is that not only are we dragging down the overall conference competitive rankings (NET, RPI), we also lag far behind our private colleagues in funding our BB program.
Side note: Both Bradley and Belmont seem to be the most efficient at supporting their programs when you look at their lower private tuition rates compared to overall budget.
* BTW, I stand corrected, Drake has the highest tuition in the MVC.
I would think that the difference in spending lies in direct comparison with ticket sales. That is, except Evansville
Average home attendance (2022-2023):
Valpo 1,625
Belmont 2,043
Drake 3,429
Bradley 4,351
Evansville 4,548
Quote from: vu72 on March 21, 2023, 01:08:45 PM
I would think that the difference in spending lies in direct comparison with ticket sales. That is, except Evansville
Average home attendance (2022-2023):
Valpo 1,625
Belmont 2,043
Drake 3,429
Bradley 4,351
Evansville 4,548
Might also include Belmont as an outlier given their attendance is more like Valpo's but their BB budget is only $10k less than #2 private, Drake, and well over the median and mean. Belmont also has the second lowest tuition of this group. And isn't Evansville amazing.
BTW, most of my figures were cobbled together from 2021-22 sources except the revenue and BB budget stuff that I scraped off MayKnow's videos.
Quote from: vu72 on March 21, 2023, 01:08:45 PM
I would think that the difference in spending lies in direct comparison with ticket sales. That is, except Evansville
Average home attendance (2022-2023):
Valpo 1,625
Belmont 2,043
Drake 3,429
Bradley 4,351
Evansville 4,548
Valpo's numbers used to be better than those teams. The lost revenue from tickets, concessions, and community indifference about going to games where they will watch loss after loss is no big deal really. VU can survive without it just fine. Face it, men's basketball simply is not a high priority at VU despite all of lip service saying it is. The faculty would love it if athletics was discontinued. They cannot stand a coach being paid over $350,000 while they are cutting faculty. If the basketball program was over, they would say good riddance.
I loved nearly every one of my professors at Valpo, 3 of which I am still in contact with today.
That said, I'm really sick of those spouting off against athletics, if that is accurate. To my knowledge, there are few if any professors who currently teach at Valpo who preceded the move to DI, which means they all took the job knowing we were a DI institution!
And any of them who object to buying out a failing coach while other jobs are being cut, guess what? We're not.
Valpo was always content.... Sure, They made a leap up in conferences twice. Looking back they probably should not have done that if they were not going to put the money into it. They were always happy with the small school, small city in the NCAA tournament and being one and done. One time they happened to catch lightning in a bottle. Look at a school like Gonzaga who made a name for themselves and continued to improve the team. They are also content with the VU name. But I don't think Valparaiso University's name is a sign of excellence anymore. I think their accredited business school has dropped off peoples radar. It's all about Kelly now. Even the education school is cutting back. I heard a rumor they might do away with the elementary education major. They have just become another university.
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Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 21, 2023, 01:55:43 PM
I loved nearly every one of my professors at Valpo, 3 of which I am still in contact with today.
That said, I'm really sick of those spouting off against athletics, if that is accurate. To my knowledge, there are few if any professors who currently teach at Valpo who preceded the move to DI, which means they all took the job knowing we were a DI institution!
And any of them who object to buying out a failing coach while other jobs are being cut, guess what? We're not.
Did I miss a petition or statement by professors attacking the athletics program? Or is there some faculty movement on campus against the sports program -- other than the predictable and continual questioning by some faculty about the role of sports in higher ed? If so, then this adds to the internal political complications concerning all of these decisions.
Given that VU went D1 in the mid-70s, the likelihood of many current profs preceding that move is pretty minimal. In any event, many candidates for faculty positions wouldn't even be aware of the differences between D1, D2, and D3, nor care that they're unaware. It's not a putdown of those individuals or the VU sports program. Rather, it's the simple reality that people care about different things.
That said, if you've just experienced the involuntary departures of dear faculty colleagues and friends earning $50-60k, and now hear a buzz about paying upwards of $700k so a coach with a mediocre W-L record can take a couple of years off, it may prompt understandable questions about prioritizing intercollegiate sports. If the school must sell the most valuable works in its art museum because it needs to renovate its dorms and has no other viable means to pay for it, then the situation is sufficiently serious that anything not part of the educational program (narrowly defined) could find itself on the table. And if things feel more desperate, at a point panic can set in and folks are tossing stuff overboard willy nilly to save the ship, so to speak.
I'm hoping that somehow, someway, the MBB coaching situation will be properly resolved and that the program will bring a sense of optimism going into next season. I'm hoping that somehow, someway, a viable 3rd option will emerge with the proposed art sale. Right now there are many deepening differences of opinion developing within the VU community, on and off campus. If these differences harden into ongoing grievances, then they will not bode well for the school's future. A lot is at stake at this moment.