Poll
Question:
Is the MVC a good fit for Valpo? Why?
Option 1: Yes, because of increased stature that comes to men's basketball.
votes: 11
Option 2: Yes, because of greater opportunity to keep Bryce around longer.
votes: 2
Option 3: Yes, because of greater long-term possibility for growth and profit.
votes: 15
Option 4: Yes, because of some other reason I'm too smart to share with you, Mr. Poll Man.
votes: 1
Option 5: No, because of the stiff start-up costs (exit fee, loss of Butler NCAA $, travel)
votes: 1
Option 6: No, because of too much travel for student-athletes
votes: 2
Option 7: No, because we still don't know what the HL plans to do vis-á-vis expansion.
votes: 7
Option 8: No, because of another reason you were too dumb to think of, Polley McPollerson.
votes: 6
looks like the MVC is visiting Valpo this week, your thoughts on moving over to the MVC?? We'd have all of western Indiana covered with Valpo being added.
if you go to kansascity dot com there is a story about site visits
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/03/31/4154451/umkc-to-get-missouri-valley-conference.html (http://www.kansascity.com/2013/03/31/4154451/umkc-to-get-missouri-valley-conference.html)
QuoteUMKC, which announced last month it was leaving the Summit League for the Western Athletic Conference, is on a list of schools Missouri Valley Conference officials plan to visit this week for membership consideration, The Star has learned.
The others: Valparaiso, Loyola (Chicago) and University of Illinois-Chicago, all members of the Horizon League.
Out of all the conferences that Valpo can potentially move to, this is the best fit. I think the competition is a step up from the Horizon but not too big of a leap.. I think they would be in over their heads in the A-10 but the MVC would be nice, it would mean more travelling though, but the only schools that are quite the hike are Missouri State and Wichita State. It would be unfortunate to lose the Chicago teams because of the Chicago market, wouldn't miss the low-level competition between two struggling schools though.
Would love to see an intrastate rivalry start once again with Indiana State and Evansville!
If they're considering Valpo, UMKC and Loyola and UIC, there are pluses and minuses to each.
VALPO: Of the three, Valpo has the biggest name and, at the current time, the best program. By far. It's a credible pick. Nobody will say, "Wow, you're really weakening your brand by taking Valpo." It also gives Evansville and Indiana State another nearby conference rival. On the flip side, Indiana is on the periphery of the MVC, and the Valley already has two Indiana schools. Valpo gets the league into the periphery of the Chicago market, but if the Chicago market is what's important to the MVC, it is far more likely to pick Loyola or UIC. I don't know how Valpo's facilities compare to UMKC's, but if it comes down to facilities, VU loses out to Loyola and UIC for sure.
LOYOLA: Loyola just upgraded all its facilities and is in a rich recruiting area. But Loyola hasn't even finished .500 in the Horizon League in forever, so the Ramblers aren't going to have an immediate impact, and the name isn't as credible as Valpo's. Still, that gets the MVC into the Chicago media market. Theoretically, Loyola looks like it could be getting ready to make a move upward, and MVC membership could help its recruiting, but that would also be true for either Valpo or UMKC.
UIC: Has basically the same advantages, and the same disadvantages, as Loyola.
UMKC: Geographically, this is the best option, but UMKC offers virtually nothing else. The program is not as strong as Valpo's or even Loyola's, and if you have a choice between the Chicago media market and the KC market, it's a no-brainer. I suspect this is more of a courtesy call on the Valley's part than anything else, because I just don't see how UMKC improves the MVC's brand.
In short, if these are the four options, I think Valpo is the likeliest choice, and Loyola's probably the dark horse. I'd be really surprised if UMKC got the offer.
Now, here's the flip side: is Valpo better off going to the MVC, or staying in the Horizon League? The answer may seem like a no-brainer, but consider the advantages offered by the Horizon League -- it's a little more geographically compact, and Valpo gets to play in major cities (Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland) throughout the upper Midwest. Games in Terre Haute, Evansville, Springfield MO, etc., might not be as interesting to recruits. As a cautionary tale, look at Evansville, which was very strong for many years when it was in the Horizon (then the MCC), but has never risen above mediocrity since joining the Valley.
The opposite end of that argument is that the MVC is obviously a much stronger conference and could do for Valpo what joining the Horizon League did for us -- after a few tough years of adjustment, it raised the level of Valpo's program, which had stagnated in the Mid-Con. And the MVC has much more potential for multiple bids than the Horizon, which now appears to be a perennial one-bid league with Butler gone.
I'm torn. If we get the offer, we probably have to take it -- but again, I see what's happened to Evansville and I wonder if we wouldn't be setting ourselves up for a situation where we struggle to go .500 in league play year in and year out and never get back to the NCAA Tournament. In the Horizon League, we're always going to have a credible shot to win the tournament and get the bid.
As someone who has not been in favor of moving to the MVC, call me concerned. Not to disrespect the other schools on the list, but they are basically bottom feeders that will hurt the MVC's RPI and standing. They're in major media markets, but they might as well not be. Nobody follows them. The only one that would add value to MVC basketball is Valpo. This also tells me that ml is actively looking. No one makes a visit to your school unless you encourage them. If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on Valpo before any of the others.
So when Butler left they had to forfeit their share of the NCAA money from their tourney runs to the HL, would the same be asked of Valpo (far less money, but money none the less). I like the HL, but if this is a move up that makes sense financially and competitively I say go for it!
QuoteI'm torn. If we get the offer, we probably have to take it -- but again, I see what's happened to Evansville and I wonder if we wouldn't be setting ourselves up for a situation where we struggle to go .500 in league play year in and year out and never get back to the NCAA Tournament. In the Horizon League, we're always going to have a credible shot to win the tournament and get the bid.
I don't see Valpo being a .500 team in league play. A majority of the time a move up is a good thing. Sometimes it doesn't seem to work out but I think it will help recruiting as players see it can be a multiple bid league and they have a team in the Final 4 this year, which most definitely will look good to see Wichita appear twice on our schedule next season and many seasons to come.
If Valpo does make the jump, I think this sadly spells the beginning of the end for the Horizon League. Losing two historically elite mid-majors in Butler and possibly VU, will be it's demise. Only being 8 teams strong and Detroit your best team, not good for the Horizon.
I'm on wh's side now--before you consider the MVC "so much better" than the HL, remember, they lose Creighton (wh's original point) and though I countered with "they still have Wichita State" (and that looks even better now) it makes more sense to pick off schools in the MVC we like and strengthen a league that has significant geographic advantage. Hard to imagine the MVC without Creighton not taking a much bigger hit than the HL without Butler this year.
new slogan: "Stay in the HL. Because. Just...because."
Chicago > Terre Haute
Milwaukee > Peoria...um...
Evansville == Dayton...er...
Detroit < Wichita
...well, can't win 'em all.
...wait a second...could all this realignment simply be a stationer's plot to sell more stationary? or graphic designers' attempt to drum up new work in a down economy?
Quote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 07:31:07 PMIf Valpo does make the jump, I think this sadly spells the beginning of the end for the Horizon League.
I don't know. What was the Horizon League without Xavier, without Evansville, two of its more successful programs? (Who figured in all four of the Horizon's first multi-bid NCAA seasons, between 1989 and 1995.) I think there's every chance the Horizon gets back to its now and then multi-bid ways, without Butler, and even without Valpo.
I don't know what to think about the MVC. It could well be the right move for greater basketball success - it's not entirely clear to me. Mostly, I think I'm just settling into the Horizon League. It's starting to feel reasonably comfortable. Is it time to move already?
It would be interesting to see attendance numbers compared to the HL. Most of the MVC gyms are much nicer. The ARC has to be a turnoff for the MVC officials.
If true I applaud ML for being active during the conference realignments. The Horizon league could be cherry picked by other conferences and I do not want to be stuck with teams like IPFW, IUPUI, etc.
It's obvious with seeding we got this year that the Horizon is not highly regarded.
I would imagine the MVC would make commitment to an upgrade in facilities a condition in any negotiations, which could be a benefit of moving.
On the other hand, I know I'm getting ahead of everything, but does anyone know what kind of broadcast coverage the MVC has for its conference? I have to admit I have been spoiled by the online streaming of all HL games.
Quote from: Chairback on March 31, 2013, 08:51:51 PM
Most of the MVC gyms are much nicer. The ARC has to be a turnoff for the MVC officials.
Quote from: valpopal on March 31, 2013, 08:59:08 PMI have to admit I have been spoiled by the online streaming of all HL games.
It's true. Compared to what's available in many (most?) conferences, HLN is _fantastic_. It would most certainly be missed. It would seem like a real step back to be stuck with WAKE streaming for league road games.
Quote from: valpopal on March 31, 2013, 08:59:08 PMI have to admit I have been spoiled by the online streaming of all HL games.
Someone mentioned wanting MVC attendance numbers. Those are doubtless available, even if it takes a little digging (I notice that their post-season bsakebtall wikipedia entries leave a lot to be desired compared to the Horizon League.).
What I'd be curious to see are HLN (and also WAKE streaming) viewer numbers. Have we ever seen these?
Found some rpi numbers of both conferences from this past year (minus Creighton):
MVC - 127 Horizon - 166
Wichita St - 37 Valpo - 58
IN St - 72 Detroit - 64
No IA - 83 Wright St - 130
Evansville - 106 Green Bay - 160
IL St - 108 UIC - 169
Drake - 144 YSU - 188
Bradley - 191 CSU - 199
So IL - 193 Loyola - 222
MO St - 203 Milwaukee - 307
The MVC is an obvious step up from the HL. League rpi (that is the rpi minus Creighton) is still 40 points higher, which means a nice jump for Valpo, who would've finished second, only by looking at rpi not actually if they played, in a Creightonless MVC. It obviously hurt our seeding this year too, Valpo was better than a 14 but the HL didn't support them being higher than a 14. If you combined the two leagues together to make an 18 team league, the HL would of had 6 out of the bottom 9 would have been HL teams and the worst HL team was in the 300s which is by far one of the worst teams in the country. Thus the move makes sense for Valpo on that standpoint.
The only real question is how much more money will we benefit from by joining the MVC. If its significant you make the move (if asked to join...).
Quote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 09:25:55 PMThe MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.
If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success. (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.) It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green). This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54). They just did it against better teams.
And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed". That's ridiculous. VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us. If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12.
This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences. Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool? Why not just get a Y membership instead?
And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction). Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive.
Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here. But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going.
PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago. Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...)
and FTR:
http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/)
http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf (http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf)
How many NCAA units does the Horizon have accumulated? (over the past 6 years?)
Here's conference RPI ranking, for the last ten season. The year in which the season ended, MVC's RPI ranking, then the Horizon's.
2013 9 12
2012 8 14
2011 12 11
2010 9 14
2009 9 12
2008 8 11
2007 6 12
2006 6 15
2005 8 20
2004 11 15
(I didn't know about 2005. Milwaukee was #20, but then it was UWGB 123, UIC 148, WSU 170, and on down from there. http://realtimerpi.com/2004-2005/rpi_horiz_Men.html (http://realtimerpi.com/2004-2005/rpi_horiz_Men.html))
Quote from: Chairback on March 31, 2013, 08:51:51 PM
It's obvious with seeding we got this year that the Horizon is not highly regarded.
Might as well move to the Summit or Big Sky because they're regarded higher than the Horizon League...
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 31, 2013, 09:48:54 PMQuote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 09:25:55 PMThe MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.
If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success. (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.) It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green). This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54). They just did it against better teams. And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed". That's ridiculous. VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us. If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12. This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences. Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool? Why not just get a Y membership instead? And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction). Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive. Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here. But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going. PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago. Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...) and FTR: http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/) http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf (http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf)
Sorry, but VU didn't get screwed on seeding. We maybe could have been a 13 at absolute best, but I figured 14 was what we'd get, and that's what we got. Remember, we lost to Nebraska and Loyola, and our only win of any kind of national note all season was the win at Murray State. I do agree, however, with your point that it wasn't necessarily due to the Horizon being weak. Detroit and Wright State had pretty solid seasons. And I generally agree with your reasons as to why the HL is to be preferred to the MVC.
here are the updated MVC RPI's from Warrennolan.com (minus Creighton)
Wichita State 17
Indiana State 70
UNI 75
Evansville 89
Illinois State 106
Drake 138
Bradley 177
Southern Illinois 188
Missouri State 197
Quote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 07:31:07 PMQuoteI'm torn. If we get the offer, we probably have to take it -- but again, I see what's happened to Evansville and I wonder if we wouldn't be setting ourselves up for a situation where we struggle to go .500 in league play year in and year out and never get back to the NCAA Tournament. In the Horizon League, we're always going to have a credible shot to win the tournament and get the bid.
I don't see Valpo being a .500 team in league play. A majority of the time a move up is a good thing. Sometimes it doesn't seem to work out but I think it will help recruiting as players see it can be a multiple bid league and they have a team in the Final 4 this year, which most definitely will look good to see Wichita appear twice on our schedule next season and many seasons to come. If Valpo does make the jump, I think this sadly spells the beginning of the end for the Horizon League. Losing two historically elite mid-majors in Butler and possibly VU, will be it's demise. Only being 8 teams strong and Detroit your best team, not good for the Horizon.
You might not see it, but I see it very clearly. In most years, I think we'd do awfully well to go 9-9 in the MVC, with maybe a breakout season here and there in which we might go 11-7 or 12-6. The MVC is a very strong league and, unlike the Horizon League, has a lot of programs with very strong traditions. Wichita State didn't just get good this year. This program has been making noise, off and on, since the 1980s, though clearly never as much as this year. Southern Illinois, Northern Iowa, Missouri State, Illinois State, Indiana State have also all had some great teams on repeated occasions. It's been a little longer since Bradley was very good, but that team is usually still competitive. The only teams in the league I'd say the Valpo program is on a par with, or better than, on a year-in, year-out basis, are Bradley, Evansville and Drake.
Look, I'm a proud VU alumnus and a strong supporter of the Crusaders, but I'm also objective. I felt the move to the Horizon League would ultimately be a good one for our program, and it was -- because it gave us a lot of games in a lot of places where recruits would want to play, against programs that were either on our level or catchable in a few years' time. Could it be that going to the MVC will raise our program to new heights? Sure. But it's also possible that the recruits we are getting now, who are eager to play in Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee and Detroit, might not be as enthusiastic about playing in Evansville, Terre Haute and Peoria, and I don't think at our current level or worse that we are going to contend for conference championships or NCAA bids in the MVC. Had we been in that conference this year (taking Creighton out of the equation), we might have topped out at second, and it's not a given that second place would have gotten us a bid. (The league got two bids this year, and Creighton was the other one.) And this was, frankly, one of the best teams in VU history, which means second would have been our top-out point. We were 7-1 on the road in the HL this year. Against the MVC, going 4-5 on the road would probably be close to our high-water mark.
So those are some arguments for staying. Here's an argument for going: with Butler gone, the Horizon League has lost a lot of prestige. While I doubt any of the rest of the league will leave (as I don't see many other leagues that will be eager to pick up anybody but Valpo), it's also not going to have the level of national respect it previously had. We came into the league at a great time, and our stock has risen as a result. But with the departure of Butler, I doubt our stock is going to rise any higher than it is now, and it might even go down. We could have a rough year next year with all the seniors we lost -- and I know we've got some good talent coming up, but it's hard to see how we don't slip a notch or two, with Wright State, Detroit and Green Bay likely to be pretty solid. This might be a case of now or never. And we saw what happened when we hung around the Mid-Con too long. We finally got stale and got passed up by the other leading teams in the league, and when that happened, all the shine of our Sweet 16 run in 1998 got dull and forgotten. The same could happen if we stay in the HL, which doesn't really have any chance at nabbing a replacement for Butler that is anywhere near Butler's level.
Weighing all those arguments, I think maybe the better move is to go to the MVC, if invited. But I don't think the decision is a slam-dunk, and I think there are some fine reasons to consider sticking around.
Quote from: Cliston94 on March 31, 2013, 09:57:05 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 31, 2013, 09:48:54 PMQuote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 09:25:55 PMThe MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.
If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success. (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.) It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green). This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54). They just did it against better teams. And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed". That's ridiculous. VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us. If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12. This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences. Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool? Why not just get a Y membership instead? And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction). Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive. Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here. But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going. PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago. Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...) and FTR: http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/) http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf (http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf)
Sorry, but VU didn't get screwed on seeding. We maybe could have been a 13 at absolute best, but I figured 14 was what we'd get, and that's what we got. Remember, we lost to Nebraska and Loyola, and our only win of any kind of national note all season was the win at Murray State. I do agree, however, with your point that it wasn't necessarily due to the Horizon being weak. Detroit and Wright State had pretty solid seasons. And I generally agree with your reasons as to why the HL is to be preferred to the MVC.
So which wonderful win did Montana have that made them more deserving of a 13 than Valpo?
I think Valpo might be able to get to that level. The past two seasons were great and a lot runs on this incoming class. But I don't know if the athletic directors can pass on this chance to get into a stronger league. I think the MVC is a great fit, geographically and athletically speaking.
The Horizon is a league that might be coming into some trouble. Losing Butler the previous year and with the possibility of losing Valpo threatens the stability of the league. I think Valpo might look at if Detroit leaves, then who else is there for them to play during league play? I know Wright State had a good season and is returning everybody but I don't see them much different than what they were this year, unless they get a scorer. While CSU and GB will be better but I don't see anybody else that is all too scary. The MVC is a stronger with league with better competition and I think is a little bit more stable than the Horizon.
Possibly if there was no talk of Detroit leaving Valpo would choose to stay but the possibility of losing another marquis matchup really hurts. While if they went to the MVC there would be multiple games I would circle on my schedule.
Quote from: Chairback on March 31, 2013, 09:44:21 PM
The only real question is how much more money will we benefit from by joining the MVC. If its significant you make the move (if asked to join...).
Isn't the biggest money that Valpo will be leaving behind be Butler's money from 2 Final Fours. Most of this money was left behind by Butler to the Horizon League. The counter weight to that is how much money Wichita State brings to the MVC with their Final Four this year combined with the money the MVC brings in with multiple bids to the Big Dance over the last few years. It's got to be close but the Butler/HL money maybe slightly more. Will the move to the MVC be worth the difference in money?
Also there will be a significant exit fee from the HL for Valpo. Butler was able to negotiate a much lower exit fee because they were already leaving behind a lot of money to the HL. I'm sure LeCrone and the HL will hold Valpo to every penny of that exit fee. Also remember that the HL decided that if Butler stayed in the HL this year that BU wouldn't be eligible for any HL championships. I'm sure the same would be true for Valpo unless the move is made at the end of June 2013.
Everybody ready themselves. We could have a conference change this summer.
It's weird Belmont and Murray State aren't targets for the MVC, but UMKC is... UMKC just joined the WAC, which may have been the weirdest move ever for them. I can imagine the MVC might consider them a fallback option. Were OVC schools already visited? Are Belmont or Murray State already on board? Are they going to the Horizon? Is Chicago State going to the B1G TEN??
QuoteIt's got to be close but the Butler/HL money maybe slightly more. Will the move to the MVC be worth the difference in money?
I think right now like you said it's close. In the future however, I see more money in the MVC with the possibility of being a multi-bid league year-in-year-out, whit the Horizon as of right now is not shaping into a multi-bid league.
FWIW
http://shockernet.net/forum/showthread.php?15453-Please-don-t-let-this-happen-or-we-need-out-MVC-ASAP (http://shockernet.net/forum/showthread.php?15453-Please-don-t-let-this-happen-or-we-need-out-MVC-ASAP)
Also Wichita State to the MVC?
It's possible that the Valley is planning on expanding to 12. If they take more then one Horizon school Valpo would have have to go.
Evansville
http://thepurplecode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1074&start=30 (http://thepurplecode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1074&start=30)
UNI
http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=51920&page=5 (http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=51920&page=5)
Seems like other MVC folks aren't against Valpo if it's between the 4, they all hate UMKC, and they like ORU, Belmont, and Murray State.
I don't see how they could complain about Valpo going to the MVC. Two straight Horizon League regular season titles, including a bid in the tourney. I agree with them UMKC would be terrible. ORU, Belmont, and Murray State aren't bad, all similar schools to Valpo this season. Maybe Valpo was closer to the top of that list this year.
Immediately after Creighton announced it was leaving, their Conference office was all over it looking for replacements, with a goal of wrapping up their search by July 1st. The HL, on the other hand, loses Butler a year ago and our conference office is still fumbling around looking for a replacement or replacements. By waiting to act, it has created an elongated period of uncertainty, making the HL more vulnerable to other conferences picking off its best programs and less attractive to potential replacements. It's the difference between being proactive and reactive. As the expression goes, 'He who hesitates is lost.' I hope I'm wrong, but it's appearing more and more that LeCrone has fumbled the ball.
QuoteImmediately after Creighton announced it was leaving, their Conference office was all over it looking for replacements, with a goal of wrapping up their search by July 1st. The HL, on the other hand, loses Butler a year ago and our conference office is still fumbling around looking for a replacement or replacements. By waiting to act, it has created an elongated period of uncertainty, making the HL more vulnerable to other conferences picking off its best programs and less attractive to potential replacements. It's the difference between being proactive and reactive.
You hit the nail on the head. I think the HL will begin to see the repercussions of doing nothing after Butler left, except say woe is me. The possibility of Valpo leaving along with the possibility of a few others, might be the demise of the HL. All in all, after long time tenant Butler, like wh said, the HL did absolutely jack, instead of going out trying to fill the vacancy.
Missouri state a bit bitter toward Valpo
http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/threads/whats-next-for-the-valley-as-creighton-hits-the-road.14343/page-3 (http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/threads/whats-next-for-the-valley-as-creighton-hits-the-road.14343/page-3)
General MVC thread
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3029&start=12 (http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3029&start=12)
Indiana State seems to hate all the teams mentioned
http://www.sycamorepride.com/showthread.php?23818-MVC-expansion-down-to-4-candidates/page44 (http://www.sycamorepride.com/showthread.php?23818-MVC-expansion-down-to-4-candidates/page44)
Seriously it's the lower RPI teams that have the most negative things to say. Why don't they focus on improving their own teams before bashing programs that are better than them? I would be happy if the HL was able to add a top 100 RPI tourney team, especially if Valpo was sitting over 100 RPI.
From a purely cultural perspective, the MVC is a significantly better fit for Valpo than the Horizon League ever was (especially after Butler left). Across the board, schools in the Valley are in smaller markets than HL schools, but they are typically the focal point in terms of fan interest in that city. On the other hand, the HL is primarily made up of large, urban commuter schools with little media coverage in their (admittedly) larger media markets.
Playing games in the major markets of the Great Lakes region is fine, but If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, did it make a sound? That's kind of how I feel about playing a great deal of our HL road games. If you play Cleveland State in front of 2,000 people and 10,000 empty seats, did you really play a meaningful game in the Cleveland market? Or, would you be better off pitching playing in a smaller market, but in front of more people night in and night out?
Agreed. Valpo really is the only basketball school left in the HL. Some teams have had some success but none sustained like Valpo did during the 90s and early 00s and I believe this incoming class can mark the beginning of the Valpo basketball tradition once again. The ARC was full for the most part this season but there were really no games (besides Detroit) that were marquis home games. If we did join the MVC: Wichita St, Indiana St, Evansville, Illinois State, and Northern Iowa, would be exciting games to watch as a fan and the intrastate teams definitely helps the case for the move to the MVC.
A jump to the MVC might make better sense from a travel standpoint if they were to pick up 3 schools and go with two divisions of six teams. Who those other two schools might be is a different topic of debate.
This is a perfect time for all of the mid-major Conferences to think big and bold. Once all this dust settles things might be set in stone for the next decade.
Quote from: a3uge on March 31, 2013, 11:44:16 PMMissouri state a bit bitter toward Valpo http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/threads/whats-next-for-the-valley-as-creighton-hits-the-road.14343/page-3 (http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/threads/whats-next-for-the-valley-as-creighton-hits-the-road.14343/page-3)
It's easy to say that from one post but 2 others are now saying of the 4 locations that are being visited, Valpo is the best of the four. It's a fairly luke warm response from the MO State message board much like the other boards:
- Of the 4 schools mentioned I hope Valpo gets the offer to join
TNMSUFAN (http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/members/tnmsufan.4/), Yesterday at 11:48 PM#64 (http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/threads/whats-next-for-the-valley-as-creighton-hits-the-road.14343/page-4#post-148924) - Sir Sci (http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/members/sir-sci.1384/)Role Player
TNMSUFAN said: ↑ (http://www.bear-nation.com/forum/goto/post?id=148924#post-148924)Of the 4 schools mentioned I hope Valpo gets the offer to join - Same here, but that doesn't mean I'd be all that excited to add Valpo either. At least they have a history of success in men's basketball, though.
Quote from: wh on March 31, 2013, 11:24:43 PMImmediately after Creighton announced it was leaving, their Conference office was all over it looking for replacements, with a goal of wrapping up their search by July 1st. The HL, on the other hand, loses Butler a year ago and our conference office is still fumbling around looking for a replacement or replacements. By waiting to act, it has created an elongated period of uncertainty, making the HL more vulnerable to other conferences picking off its best programs and less attractive to potential replacements. It's the difference between being proactive and reactive. As the expression goes, 'He who hesitates is lost.' I hope I'm wrong, but it's appearing more and more that LeCrone has fumbled the ball.
That's an interesting statement since this past summer after Butler announced they were going to the A-10 you posted this:Quote from: wh on July 10, 2012, 11:09:12 AMQuote from: HorizonLeagueFan on July 10, 2012, 08:02:31 AMThe HL plans to add 3 teams and announce all 3 teams at once. Don't expect any announcements this summer. I expect we will hear something around conference tournament time next year.
As frustrating as it is to have wait for several more months for an announcement, I can understand the need for it. After what the HL did to Butler, no one is going to tip their hand early and risk getting dealt out of their conference tournament.
I had remembered over the summer that some were advocating waiting till this March to announce 3 additions to the HL but I was surprised to find after reading your statement that one of those posters was you.
Quote from: historyman on April 01, 2013, 04:39:00 AM
Quote from: wh on March 31, 2013, 11:24:43 PMImmediately after Creighton announced it was leaving, their Conference office was all over it looking for replacements, with a goal of wrapping up their search by July 1st. The HL, on the other hand, loses Butler a year ago and our conference office is still fumbling around looking for a replacement or replacements. By waiting to act, it has created an elongated period of uncertainty, making the HL more vulnerable to other conferences picking off its best programs and less attractive to potential replacements. It's the difference between being proactive and reactive. As the expression goes, 'He who hesitates is lost.' I hope I'm wrong, but it's appearing more and more that LeCrone has fumbled the ball.
That's an interesting statement since this past summer after Butler announced they were going to the A-10 you posted this:
Quote from: wh on July 10, 2012, 11:09:12 AMQuote from: HorizonLeagueFan on July 10, 2012, 08:02:31 AMThe HL plans to add 3 teams and announce all 3 teams at once. Don't expect any announcements this summer. I expect we will hear something around conference tournament time next year.
As frustrating as it is to have wait for several more months for an announcement, I can understand the need for it. After what the HL did to Butler, no one is going to tip their hand early and risk getting dealt out of their conference tournament.
I had remembered over the summer that some were advocating waiting till this March to announce 3 additions to the HL but I was surprised to find after reading your statement that one of those posters was you.
I never advocated waiting another year to add a replacement for Butler. Notice the date of my post - July 10, 2012. By then the HL had already squandered its opportunity to add a new member for the current school year. That being the case, I simply commented that it made sense that under those circumstances we should not expect to hear any early announcements about a replacement school before they play in their conference tournament. Nothing inconsistent here - 2 completely different points...
Aren't "historymen" supposed to put everything in context before they draw conclusions? :)
Quote from: Cliston94 on March 31, 2013, 09:57:05 PMSorry, but VU didn't get screwed on seeding. We maybe could have been a 13 at absolute best, but I figured 14 was what we'd get, and that's what we got.
Just because that's what you figured, doesn't make it true. Here're the cold hard facts: all the computers and prognosticators (and when I say "all" it means "close to a hundred") had us ahead of Montana, SDSU, dead even with Davidson, and .02 behind NMSU. We should have been at least 2 spots higher, thus being where we SHOULD have been would have made us a 13, even if we were behind Davidson (who lost to frickin UWM) and NMSU (which probably, yeah). But we were a 14. Check BracketMatrix, check CrashingTheDance, etc. etc. Being where you should have been is fine. Being ahead of where you should have been (Montana) is being lucky. Being behind where you should have been is getting screwed. (And we've been over how much better each line up does, record-wise--it's exponential.)
(Glad I'm not in a relationship with anyone who doesn't know what being screwed is! ;))
Quote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 10:35:15 PMpossibility of losing another marquis matchup really hurts.
lol...does that mean no Duquesne rematch? ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_Dukes#Mascot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_Dukes#Mascot)
Quote from: justducky on April 01, 2013, 12:15:01 AMOnce all this dust settles things might be set in stone for the next decade.
Eh...pretty sure people have been saying that after each and every conference realignment since Nebraska to the B1G.
Again, as I have mentioned before, IMO Valpo's movement or lack thereof will depend upon the public vs. private distinction. Geography is ancillary since the MVC is reasonably compact as it is.
Let's think outside the box for a moment. It is potentially possible that VU could remain as the only private school in the HL if LUC moves to the MVC and UDM moves to the A-10. While the possibility is remote that UDM will move, it still technically exists given that SLU and UD may be moving to the Big East next year. With that in mind, if LUC moves to the MVC, even if the HL expands, it is almost a guarantee in my mind that UE isn't leaving (if they ever were). From Valpo's standpoint, whether WSU leaves for the MWC and "weakens" the MVC is irrelevant in this analysis because they are a public school.
I said two weeks ago that LUC and VU would be excellent private school travel partners in any league. 12 gives VU a better chance at entry than 10, IMO.
And for the record, it is situations like these why you need to put substantial funds toward ARC improvements as they are badly needed and not instead toward a "Welcome Center" that provides only limited exposure.
If VU cares about the public vs. private distinction, it should explore the MVC. If it does not, stay put. No shame in the HL.
The problem for Valpo is that they have major disadvantages compared to the other schools under consideration. The school is small, so it's not like they can just raise student seg fees to cover the costs of moving up conferences. The facilities are poor - sharing the basketball practice court hurts, and the ARC is a pig compared to any building in the MVC. The area is small as well, with not much room for growth. At most other HL schools - MKE, CSU, Detroit, UIC - a prolonged period of success can grow the attendance at any of them two or three times what it has been at. Valpo has sustained several periods of prolonged success, and it can't even sell out the ARC for a conference championship game. It's the advantage of being a big state school in a big city - if you're in a good conference or you're winning a lot, people care about you more - that translates into a bigger boost in big cities. The NWI area just doesn't have the population to support an MVC program long-term.
Unfortunately for my school, we let Andy Geiger come and harpoon our program by moving us back to the Klotsche Center, out of Kareem and Oscar's house. We're not even worthy of consideration unless we have a lease at the Cell.
Hey guys. I asked this question on Raider Nation and no one seems to have a definitive answer. For lack of a better thread to add it to, I'll ask it here. After Kevin ware's injury and heading into the second half of Louisville/Duke at Lucas oil Stadium, I noticed the Horizon League logo on the Louisville locker room sign. Later on I also realized it was being sported in the top left corner of the court where the hosting team usually has its logo. Any of you have the scoop on how we got that there for the elite eight?
Quote from: Goraiders93 on April 01, 2013, 10:13:45 AM
Hey guys. I asked this question on Raider Nation and no one seems to have a definitive answer. For lack of a better thread to add it to, I'll ask it here. After Kevin ware's injury and heading into the second half of Louisville/Duke at Lucas oil Stadium, I noticed the Horizon League logo on the Louisville locker room sign. Later on I also realized it was being sported in the top left corner of the court where the hosting team usually has its logo. Any of you have the scoop on how we got that there for the elite eight?
The Horizon League staff was in charge of the regional. I'm guessing that had something to do with it.
Quote from: a3uge on March 31, 2013, 10:23:11 PM
Quote from: Cliston94 on March 31, 2013, 09:57:05 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 31, 2013, 09:48:54 PMQuote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 09:25:55 PMThe MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.
If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success. (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.) It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green). This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54). They just did it against better teams. And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed". That's ridiculous. VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us. If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12. This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences. Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool? Why not just get a Y membership instead? And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction). Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive. Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here. But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going. PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago. Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...) and FTR: http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/) http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf (http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf)
Sorry, but VU didn't get screwed on seeding. We maybe could have been a 13 at absolute best, but I figured 14 was what we'd get, and that's what we got. Remember, we lost to Nebraska and Loyola, and our only win of any kind of national note all season was the win at Murray State. I do agree, however, with your point that it wasn't necessarily due to the Horizon being weak. Detroit and Wright State had pretty solid seasons. And I generally agree with your reasons as to why the HL is to be preferred to the MVC.
So which wonderful win did Montana have that made them more deserving of a 13 than Valpo?
I'd say its wins over Weber State were on a par with our win at Murray, and Montana had no losses that were as bad as losing at home to Loyola. Taking an objective view, if it came down between Montana and Valpo for a 13-seed, I'd say Montana ought to have gotten it. The teams that really got screwed on seeding were Oregon, Cal and Mississippi.
Quote from: Valpo89 on April 01, 2013, 10:23:23 AM
Quote from: Goraiders93 on April 01, 2013, 10:13:45 AM
Hey guys. I asked this question on Raider Nation and no one seems to have a definitive answer. For lack of a better thread to add it to, I'll ask it here. After Kevin ware's injury and heading into the second half of Louisville/Duke at Lucas oil Stadium, I noticed the Horizon League logo on the Louisville locker room sign. Later on I also realized it was being sported in the top left corner of the court where the hosting team usually has its logo. Any of you have the scoop on how we got that there for the elite eight?
The Horizon League staff was in charge of the regional. I'm guessing that had something to do with it.
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1368.msg31139#msg31139 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1368.msg31139#msg31139)
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 01, 2013, 10:11:35 AM
The problem for Valpo is that they have major disadvantages compared to the other schools under consideration. The school is small, so it's not like they can just raise student seg fees to cover the costs of moving up conferences. The facilities are poor - sharing the basketball practice court hurts, and the ARC is a pig compared to any building in the MVC. The area is small as well, with not much room for growth. At most other HL schools - MKE, CSU, Detroit, UIC - a prolonged period of success can grow the attendance at any of them two or three times what it has been at. Valpo has sustained several periods of prolonged success, and it can't even sell out the ARC for a conference championship game. It's the advantage of being a big state school in a big city - if you're in a good conference or you're winning a lot, people care about you more - that translates into a bigger boost in big cities. The NWI area just doesn't have the population to support an MVC program long-term.
Unfortunately for my school, we let Andy Geiger come and harpoon our program by moving us back to the Klotsche Center, out of Kareem and Oscar's house. We're not even worthy of consideration unless we have a lease at the Cell.
As someone already mentioned, an invitation to the MVC would likely come with a requirement that the ARC be revamped within a certain timeframe. Unfortunately for the MVC, they can't build in a requirement that Loyola or UIC improve their bottom feeding men's basketball programs and have any assurance that it will happen. That would take a lot of blind faith. If you can't win where you're at the way Valpo, Detroit and Wright State are doing right now, why would anyone trust that you would win at the next level. Promotions on the job don't work that way, and for the most part promotions in other areas of life don't either.
I'm still not personally interested in leaving the HL, but not because I think we're not worthy of MVC membership. We have a proven track record of adding value everywhere we go, and we would do what we have to do to be a fine representative of the MVC.
Not even responding to the 'Montana deserved a 13 seed over us' comments anymore, as it is ridiculous.
In regards to student athletes, I imagine that there is a very small percentage of our top recruits that truly care about playing the HL bigger cities. What most top recruits care about is playing in a top conference, for a top team. If they have family in these larger cities, that is about the only reason I think they would care about the HL cities. If you get to play in a top 10 RPI conferece, that is a much bigger draw.
QuoteThe NWI area just doesn't have the population to support an MVC program long-term.
I don't see how NWI isn't large enough to support a MVC team. The NWI area has around 800,000 people (Jasper, Lake, LaPorte, Newton, and Porter Counties). Which is much larger than Peoria, Cedar Falls, Evansville. So population of the area doesn't matter all that much to the MVC, in the Horizon we are the smallest in the MVC we would be average if not a bit above.
We also are similar size in enrollment to some of the MVC programs. Drake, Evansville, and Bradley all are around 5,000 students the first two closer to 3,000 which is the same with Valpo and Valpo is in a bigger population area. So, it doesn't effect whether or not the MVC will offer them a spot, in fact it might play a factor in helping Valpo get an offer for the MVC as they see the school is similar to many of their schools.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 01, 2013, 10:11:35 AM
The problem for Valpo is that they have major disadvantages compared to the other schools under consideration. The school is small, so it's not like they can just raise student seg fees to cover the costs of moving up conferences. The facilities are poor - sharing the basketball practice court hurts, and the ARC is a pig compared to any building in the MVC. The area is small as well, with not much room for growth. At most other HL schools - MKE, CSU, Detroit, UIC - a prolonged period of success can grow the attendance at any of them two or three times what it has been at. Valpo has sustained several periods of prolonged success, and it can't even sell out the ARC for a conference championship game. It's the advantage of being a big state school in a big city - if you're in a good conference or you're winning a lot, people care about you more - that translates into a bigger boost in big cities. The NWI area just doesn't have the population to support an MVC program long-term.
I am a little surprised by your analysis. Let's look at your disadvantages one by one. Valpo is small, but would not be the smallest school in the MVC. That distinction goes to Evansville which is about 1000 students smaller than VU. Quite frankly Drake and Bradley are no giants either. I really don't see the fees as being a problem. You talk about our small area, but I think there is plenty of room for growth as part of the official Chicago MSA, Valparaiso has grown at about a 12% clip over the last 25 years and even if you just take the NW Indiana area it compares very favorably with the areas of many of the MVC schools and is
larger than quite a few. As you have mentioned we are in a time of sustained success and becoming a bigger fish in a small pond is often more favorable than being a small fish in a big pond. Attendance in big cities is not a given, in the conversation on the problems with the UCLA job it was lamented about the difficulties of getting people to come out for games. Competing for fans against professional teams when you are Detroit, UIC or CSU is not an easy thing to do. I really don't see an attendance problem at VU if the schedule is upgraded. Lets face it, attendance in the league and the tournament was down because or the "no Butler" effect. Facilities would most likely be the main issue and I am sure some kind of assurances would have to be given in regards to facilities improvements. I think you would have to agree that Valpo is currently the most recognized of the HL schools. What other HL school has a major ad campaign being run by a major company? Unilever must have thought that Valpo had some brand recognition....
another scenario that very well may play out, what if all 3 Horizon league schools are asked to join the MVC? Valpo, UI-C, and Loyola. Do all 3 agree to this? It may very well happen. The Horizon League didn't do anything when Butler left. They sit at 9 schools and now are on the verge of being raided. I don't know that the MVC wants to sit at 9 and risk losing more before adding.
So who knows? Will the MVC add 1, or 3?
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 01, 2013, 09:03:23 AMnot instead toward a "Welcome Center" that provides only limited exposure.
you know, now that you mention it, that is kind of the equivalent of an investment in newspapers in an internet age.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 01, 2013, 11:42:15 AM(Jasper, Lake, LaPorte, Newton, and Porter Counties)
wow...Jasper but not Starke? ...because it's larger and closer? oh wait ;)
(In all seriousness, though, there's nearly 800K in Lake-Porter-LaPorte alone...adding Jasper-Newton-Starke doesn't add even 10% to that total.)
Since 97% of the thinking here is "what's good for men's basketball?" I would like to renew my complaint that we should have different conferences for revenue and non-revenue sports. Here's my new slogan:
THE NRC (non-revenue conference): "Because we shouldn't put the swim teams on a stanky Greyhound to Wichita simply because our men's basketball teams should play each other."
(And think how much cooler college football and basketball could become with stuff like relegation, Eurosoccer-style. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.)
Quote from: isu87 on April 01, 2013, 02:21:50 PM
another scenario that very well may play out, what if all 3 Horizon league schools are asked to join the MVC? Valpo, UI-C, and Loyola. Do all 3 agree to this? It may very well happen. The Horizon League didn't do anything when Butler left. They sit at 9 schools and now are on the verge of being raided. I don't know that the MVC wants to sit at 9 and risk losing more before adding.
So who knows? Will the MVC add 1, or 3?
As someone already mentioned early in this thread, it would be nearly impossible to say no to a 3-fer with Loyola and UIC. Instead of being isolated in a far corner of the MVC footprint, we would be part of a strong "Chicago connection," complete with travel partners, close home and home games, etc. Also, if Loyola and UIC defected, the HL would be left with only 7 schools and would lose all its leverage essentially over night for adding schools with quality athletic programs. If Loyola, UIC and Valpo defected as one group the HL would immediately go into survival mode.
I agree. I think best case scenario is that UIC and Loyola tag along, I know that both basketball programs aren't too good but it would be nice to keep the Chicago teams close. Close drive from Valpo and makes travelling a little easier on the teams. Even though the only truly far places are Springfield and Wichita.
The perfect storm seems to be brewing to bring down the HL. If the three teams leave this will leave only 6, and no quality teams will no longer consider the Horizon. I could see the Horizon welcoming low-level teams. IUPUI, IPFW, UMKC, Chicago State, etc... could be looking at the possibility of becoming new members if that happens. The Horizon League could very well turn into the Summit League Jr.
The welcome center was funded by 1 donor and that donation was strictly for a welcome center on campus. C'mon man :crazy:
If we were to be offered and accept an MVC slot, I would be just fine with taking UIC/Loyola with us. Heck, I would prefer if it were Loyola and Detroit, so that the conference would have 6 private schools, and 6 public. I wouldn't mind UIC, which would be 5 private/7 public, but the MVC doesn't seem to want two schools in one city. As long as we end up in the conference adding teams, I will be happy. Whether that is us poaching some schools from somewhere else without losing anyone, or us joining the MVC.
This is why I am not sure that the "wait and see" attitude that LeCrone seemed to espouse was the correct attitude. Once the Catholic 7 split off it might have been wise to strongly go after the higher level OVC schools. If the MVC would make an offer to UIC, Loyola and VU I think we would all be fools not to go. We don't want to get stuck in a conference adding teams just to survive, it would be like the old Mid-Con all over again and look how long it took for us to recoup from that situation.
I am really sure that Evansville would love to have us in the MVC. As I have said before, the previous administration was looking at Valpo as one of their main admissions competitors.
According to Michael Osipoff, Athletic Director Mark La Barbera neither confirmed nor denied that the MVC was visiting Valpo this week. Which typically means that the MVC is visiting Valpo this week and that La Barbera is interested in the move to the MVC.
If we did move to the MVC, does that keep Bryce around a few years longer? I do like that our AD is watching out for Valpo, as the previous one basically gave the school the shaft for his last decade in the position, in trying to help out his Mid-Con Commissioner son....
This is probably a crazy idea....but how about adding VU, Loyola, and Detroit (as previously recommended) and then having 2 divisions. One would be the "Private Universities" with VU, LU, UDM, Bradley, Evansville, and Drake. That works out pretty well geographically also.
An opportunity to move up to the Valley would be an excellent opportunity. The HL is on borrowed time since Butler left. It would take awhile for VU to move up to the upper level in basketball, but there is no reason why the recruiting wouldnt ramp up.
lowposter
I think it could very well be that La Barbera realizes in order to keep Drew he needs to put him in the best atmosphere possible. Right now for Valpo that's the MVC. Drew looks like he could become a top level mid-major coach and a top level mid-major coach deserves a top level mid-major conference. Right now the Horizon League is looking to be a run-of-the-mill mid-major conference.
Quote from: lowposter on April 01, 2013, 04:07:20 PMThis is probably a crazy idea....but how about adding VU, Loyola, and Detroit (as previously recommended) and then having 2 divisions. One would be the "Private Universities" with VU, LU, UDM, Bradley, Evansville, and Drake. That works out pretty well geographically also.
Good idea but I have heard nothing about Detroit coming over. Like you said it is a crazy idea, sounds cool but crazy.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2013/4/1/4170684/realignment-approaching-for-the-horizon-league-and-missouri-valley (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2013/4/1/4170684/realignment-approaching-for-the-horizon-league-and-missouri-valley)
Quote from: HC on April 01, 2013, 03:08:41 PM
The welcome center was funded by 1 donor and that donation was strictly for a welcome center on campus. C'mon man :crazy:
Your missing the point. Substantial ARC upgrades are currently being funded by zero donors.
It's time to put the ARC at the top of the list with respect to campus projects. When Villanova, a private, non FBS school reached out to the ACC, VU should have taken that as a sign that the dominoes were getting ready to fall and that mid-majors would be impacted in the future. And here we are now.
We should have had more emphasis on prioritizing facility improvements for basketball. You're not going to fight me on that point, are you?
The combo transfer of Valpo along with Loyola and/or UIC would make it a great move. That brings the Chicago connection. Adding Chicago partners would easily tip the scales to our joining the MVC. The short-term NCAA $ could favor HL due to Butler, but you have to think that over a 10-year period, there will be more $ from a more solid deeper MVC league.
Loyola actually has a nice "name" dating back into the 60s and matches up well with Bradley and Evansville identities. UIC is less attractive but adds a 3rd Chicago market and good facilities.
The MVC might think the Dakota schools and ORU are too far out of the way geographically.
I think the MVC probably would have at least looked at Belmont and Murray State over Valpo, UIC, Loyola, and definitely UMKC. We're getting angry for not signing Belmont, Murray State, or Evansville to the Horizon, but really, it seems like Murray Sate, Belmont, and Evansville don't want to go anywhere. I think the Horizon League truly tried to replace Butler with a decent school. How do we know they didn't extend Belmont a bid? The Horizon doesn't have much leverage over the MVC, so I would assume Belmont would go to the MVC over the Horizon. I'm guessing paying consecutive years of conference forfeit fees isn't in Belmont's best interest. As for Murray State... I'm not sure what's going on with them. Does the MVC not want them because they're a public university? It seems like the Horizon would be a good fit for them, but maybe they're waiting for an invite to the MVC, and we're all at a dead-lock because they definitely aren't going to join the Horizon if their top team leaves. Maybe Belmont and Murray State are going to wait a year and let the dust settle before jumping ship to the Horizon/MVC. I think the MVC would be dumb not to add both those schools if it meant 12 members.
I read on one of those links that UMKC probably are getting a visit so their commissioner can show them that they could work up to being a MVC school. They fit well with the geographical footprint... but they have a crappy program.
If the MVC isn't interested ORU/Dakotas due to geography, and can't get Belmont/Murray State for awhile, I think Valpo might be the most logical option to replace Creighton until Belmont and Murray State can come over. Playing with 9 sucks, and if you can replace them with a school with some recognition, and a school that doesn't hurt them in RPI, there's not much of a drawback. Sure, it isn't the juicy 'get' they want, but it won't be a travesty to them either. It would be a travesty to replace Creighton with UMKC.
One thing I like about the MVC is that just about every school gets into the 0-100 RPI range every four years. There's no perennial bottom feeders like we have in the Horizon. Loyola, UIC, and YSU all haven't broken the 0-100 RPI range in maybe 10 years, UWGB hasn't really done anything either, and UWM managed to turn their program from perennial contenders to playing in the Klotsche Center. The MVC's least successful (basketball) school is Evansville... and wasn't the Horizon looking to add them?
Last thought: I think the Horizon League definitely has a backup plan if Detroit leaves (Oakland), but probably has a much less attractive backup plan if Loyola/Valpo leaves. I would imagine IUPUI and IPFW would receive invites if that happens. If the MVC poaches from the HL, the HL will poach from the Summit. Not sure who the Summit poaches from.
Quote from: a3uge on April 01, 2013, 05:41:14 PMNot sure who the Summit poaches from.
Great West and non-D1?
Here is a different view. Why does the MVC want to grow? Because they fear being raided. Why would we even consider leaving if we thought the HL were a stablle organization? So we have two upper mid-major conferences who both think that they either have to grow or die and then it may be every man for himself.
So could we insure some stability for a 9 team HL and a 9 team MVC? Maybe help each other with OOC scheduling to improve at large resumes? Could something be arranged where the last two weekends of the year are set aside by everyone with the designation "opponents to be named later" then be assigned on maybe Dec 1 with 4 games against the other conferences equivalent strength teams? Don't ask me for details, I just thought I would float this then hunker down to avoid the rain of flack.
Fire Away!
FWIW
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/820/mvcrpis.png)
6 years is when we joined the Horizon.
4 years is a full recruiting class.
Valpo would obviously be the best of the 4 mentioned in the KC article. We'd fit smack dab in the middle of the MVC.
Belmont, Murray State would be great gets for the MVC.
ORU is probably comparable to Valpo, but their location is far away.
https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Wichita,+KS&daddr=Des+Moines,+IA+to:Cedar+Falls,+IA+to:Springfield,+MO+to:Peoria,+IL+to:Normal,+IL+to:Evansville,+IN+to:Terre+Haute,+IN+to:Carbondale,+IL&hl=en&sll=39.876019,-92.351074&sspn=10.551404,16.633301&geocode=FTkWPwId0cQy-iktGH_Satu6hzE-PdN0v9WWkw%3BFSHGegIdbqNr-innHmHBpJnuhzGy5JEmUSgAcQ%3BFfMHiQIdfGV9-ilHE8iBUVXlhzHpMQDB4ier8g%3BFX3DNwId9Xhw-ik_mMhF92LPhzGgDWkes2z9aw%3BFZHvbAIdBvuo-imteVhTXFkKiDHbgH1rMvT7yg%3BFZsyagIdWRyy-il7gaCOHnELiDHA3apu7ztFzA%3BFWdmQwIdbsXH-iktd1YxE9VxiDGdySoROUkutQ%3BFc82WgIdayvK-inv3JGKR2VtiDGI7-NfZ6g_gA%3BFSmsPwIdEqmu-ilzVmUrpQ53iDGzF88P0Wtk_g&oq=Carbondale&mra=ls&t=m&z=6
Ignore the blue lines and just look at where the MVC cities are. It looks to me that Tulsa (ORU), Nashville (Belmont) and Murray, KY (south of Carbondale & Evansville in the lower part of Western KY near the Tenn line) are not any more geographically out of the way than Chicago and Valpo.
As far as the Dakotas, Vermillion, SD (USD) is not way out of the MVC foot print being 236 miles from Des Moines (Drake) just 100 miles or so from Omaha. But Brookings, SD (SDSU) and Fargo, ND (NDSU) are way out of the MVC foot print.
A upgrade would be great, and I think you will be very happy in the near future. All I'm saying is they can't take money given specifically for project A and use it on the ARC.
Quote from: Cliston94 on April 01, 2013, 10:45:40 AMQuote from: a3uge on March 31, 2013, 10:23:11 PMQuote from: Cliston94 on March 31, 2013, 09:57:05 PMQuote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 31, 2013, 09:48:54 PMQuote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 09:25:55 PMThe MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.
If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success. (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.) It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green). This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54). They just did it against better teams. And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed". That's ridiculous. VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us. If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12. This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences. Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool? Why not just get a Y membership instead? And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction). Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive. Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here. But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going. PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago. Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...) and FTR: http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/) http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf (http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf)
Sorry, but VU didn't get screwed on seeding. We maybe could have been a 13 at absolute best, but I figured 14 was what we'd get, and that's what we got. Remember, we lost to Nebraska and Loyola, and our only win of any kind of national note all season was the win at Murray State. I do agree, however, with your point that it wasn't necessarily due to the Horizon being weak. Detroit and Wright State had pretty solid seasons. And I generally agree with your reasons as to why the HL is to be preferred to the MVC.
So which wonderful win did Montana have that made them more deserving of a 13 than Valpo?
I'd say its wins over Weber State were on a par with our win at Murray, and Montana had no losses that were as bad as losing at home to Loyola. Taking an objective view, if it came down between Montana and Valpo for a 13-seed, I'd say Montana ought to have gotten it. The teams that really got screwed on seeding were Oregon, Cal and Mississippi.
Thank you! It is about time someone agrees that the Pac10 is not as bad as their seeding. Oregon IMO had a heckuva tournament.
Quote from: valpotx on April 01, 2013, 03:59:28 PMIf we did move to the MVC, does that keep Bryce around a few years longer? I do like that our AD is watching out for Valpo, as the previous one basically gave the school the shaft for his last decade in the position, in trying to help out his Mid-Con Commissioner son....
This insight is sheer brilliance. I am so happy someone said this. Jon Steinbrecher was a smoozer.
This whole topic on the grand scale gives me hives, but that's old news ;) I defer to PantherU and others who are much more well informed than I am on who would be a good fit where, but I can't help wondering how many of these schools that are looking to move up are engaging in shallow analysis of their needs. There just seems to be *so* many schools looking to upgrade that it seems likely some of them are just looking at short-term gains for their basketball teams and ignoring the implications on all other aspects of their university's purpose for being.
As for the attractiveness of Loyola and UIC because of the Chicago market, I find that a little confusing because the Chicago market couldn't care less about UIC and Loyola. The media barely covers them (and why should they when they have plenty to talk about with Northwestern never receiving an NCAA bid and DePaul playing in an awkward venue - two power conference teams who excel in futility). Laurence Holmes will have Howard Moore or Porter Moser on his show, and the Tribune will run stories about 1963, but on a regular basis what you get is a 2-paragraph preview of each Flames or Ramblers game by a Trib guy who spent 5 minutes composing it. After the game, the next day, you get a Sports Xchange writeup which reads like an AP writeup. The coverage of the HL in Chicago is beyond abysmal.
On the other hand, to take the totally self-centered approach, most MVC schools are a lot closer to my home than HL schools are, and the tourney is in St. Louis on a neutral court. I would be ecstatic to be able to watch an entire tournament in person again.
Sorry I can't contribute objectively to this discussion, it's an important one to have. I'm still getting used to the Horizon League and I'm beginning to get to know fans from other HL teams. I'm not ready to get another divorce ;)
Quote from: HC on April 01, 2013, 07:16:20 PMA upgrade would be great, and I think you will be very happy in the near future. All I'm saying is they can't take money given specifically for project A and use it on the ARC.
I will be upset if Valpo get a bid to the MVC and rejects it. This conference has great history and cities that love college basketball. This would be a wonderful opportunity for Valparaiso University to expand in many ways.
Chicago right now is a horrible college basketball town. DePaul, supposedly the Chicago college hoop flagship team, blows. Fan apathy is low at all schools. I also would be surprised and it would be a risk if the MVC takes Loyola and UIC.
That being said, it's time to expand and clean up the ARC.
If Valpo can show that it has plans to renovate or build a new gym, the hospital site is perfect and even comes with a parking garage already attached! Valpo has shown that it can compete at all levels with all programs not just basketball. 4 or 5 teams have one the Horizon League, thus we are becoming the big fish in a small pond once again and I hope the MVC officials realize this and ask us to join the MVC. I'm fairly optimistic, as Valpo seemingly meets and exceeds in many of the major categories, with the only drawback being its gym and athletic facilities.
You know, I hope all this is not an April Fools joke.
I don't believe it is a joke. Could be wrong though, and I would be super pissed off it was!
The Kansas City Star is a legit newspaper in KC. Also multipe sources have not denied that the MVC was looking at Valpo. LaBarbera and the MVC commissioner both didn't deny it. I really doubt they would have done this as a joke, especially when the commissioners are involved. If it is a joke it is one cruel joke.
So IMO I think this is all legit, nothing unusual about it. Not like Valpo to the Pac12 or something really crazy!
Quote from: classof2014 on April 01, 2013, 11:42:15 AM
QuoteThe NWI area just doesn't have the population to support an MVC program long-term.
I don't see how NWI isn't large enough to support a MVC team. The NWI area has around 800,000 people (Jasper, Lake, LaPorte, Newton, and Porter Counties). Which is much larger than Peoria, Cedar Falls, Evansville. So population of the area doesn't matter all that much to the MVC, in the Horizon we are the smallest in the MVC we would be average if not a bit above.
We also are similar size in enrollment to some of the MVC programs. Drake, Evansville, and Bradley all are around 5,000 students the first two closer to 3,000 which is the same with Valpo and Valpo is in a bigger population area. So, it doesn't effect whether or not the MVC will offer them a spot, in fact it might play a factor in helping Valpo get an offer for the MVC as they see the school is similar to many of their schools.
This is dead on. Peoria? DesMoines? Yes, being private is a smaller market area fits the MVC very well.
When you start playing through all the different scenarios, you come to the conclusion that there is currently one (or two if you count the soon-to-be-extinct Great West) too many conferences trying to cover the same relative geographic area (The Valley, Horizon, Summit, and WAC) and one will eventually cease to exist. In spite of losing Creighton, the Valley remains the most stable and should stay that way for some time. My money would be on the WAC and Summit fighting for programs until one finally gives up the ghost with the WAC and western Summit teams in one league and the eastern Summit teams looking at the HL or OVC.
Though it is probably the second most stable league after the Valley on this list, due to its geographic location the HL is under serious threat of raids from both the east (A-10) and west (MVC) and stands to lose at least one or two members in the next cycle of realignment. Every time the league loses a "top program" it is likely to turn to the Summit League for a replacement. If we chose to remain loyal to the HL, we could end up in a league that progressively looks more and more like the old Mid-Con with each passing year (just look at the lists of potential Butler replacements that have been thrown around this board over the last year).
If the opportunity to move to the Valley presents itself, it would be very difficult for Heckler, LaBarbera and the rest of the administration to sell the Valpo community on staying in a consistent one-bid HL seemingly destined to take several additional steps back long before it can start moving forward post-Butler. Especially when the Valley feels like a much better fit from a cultural standpoint (see my previous post on this thread).
Quote from: classof2014 on April 01, 2013, 08:05:04 PM
If Valpo can show that it has plans to renovate or build a new gym, the hospital site is perfect and even comes with a parking garage already attached! Valpo has shown that it can compete at all levels with all programs not just basketball. 4 or 5 teams have one the Horizon League, thus we are becoming the big fish in a small pond once again and I hope the MVC officials realize this and ask us to join the MVC. I'm fairly optimistic, as Valpo seemingly meets and exceeds in many of the major categories, with the only drawback being its gym and athletic facilities.
The Porter property is designated for the new Field House in the 30 year plan. In that same plan the ARC is slated for expansion as well. There is no plan for a "new ARC." But let's also look at the other sports besides WBB, MBB and VB: No track; Em Bauer field -- exposed and windy, often unplayable early into the season (scheduled to be moved to Kroencke location in the future), Softball -- Good; Tennis -- Good; Golf -- Good; Soccer (East gate -- poor (bad drainage and windswept), Brown Field -- adequate but not soccer specific and not up to MVC standards).
The MVC is more than BB (although BB is a very big player). I have to believe, that
as a whole Valpo would bring to the MVC environment the worst total set of facilities of possible invitees. Valpo would have to, IMO, agree to submit a facility improvement plan and commit to immediately begin building/renovating/expanding/whatever its existing facilities to MVC standards before an invitation would be extended. If it want's to play with the 'bigger boys', it has to improve it's whole athletic program commensurate with whom they aspire to or it won't be taken seriously. Time to invest or stay in the HL.
As long as Valpo has a plan to update their facilities and Heckler is all for the updates. I believe we will see an offer from the MVC.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 01, 2013, 10:27:04 PMIf we chose to remain loyal to the HL, we could end up in a league that progressively looks more and more like the old Mid-Con with each passing year (just look at the lists of potential Butler replacements that have been thrown around this board over the last year).
I agree, it scares me to see that the Horizon is turning into a Summit League type conference. With a one or two okay to good teams and the rest stink. I personally don't see why the MVC wouldn't offer us a position. We are comparable to: Drake, Evansville, and Bradley. We aren't too far from Bradley, Illinois State, and Indiana State. We also have the potential to being one of the largest television markets because of Chicago. And many of the athletic teams have experienced recent success. It's not like we only have basketball, we have softball, baseball, volleyball, soccer, etc... That have had successful seasons in the recent past. Yes, some of the facilities are lacking but with President Heckler's plan I see these all being addressed as he looks to expand the university.
BTW I was late in getting to this hot topic, but I have come to some conclusions besides my standard facilities rant below;
I like the idea that without Bryce moving on he can move up. Great way to entice him to stay.
I like the higher overall level of competition in all sports, not just Basketball.
I like media respect -- I think it's higher on a national level.
I believe that VU home games against MVC schools on average will draw much better than the average home games vs. HL teams.
I like the idea of playing Indiana State and Evansville again (I'm an old ICC guy)
I do not feel good about the added travel (mainly for the non-basketball sports)
Carbondale - 350 Detroit - 247
Peoria - 191 Cleveland - 307
Cedar Falls - 345 Dayton - 270
Springfield, MO - 537 Chicago - 52
Evansville - 280 Milwaukee - 143
DeMoines - 371 Green Bay - 259
Normal - 158 Youngstown - 365
Terra Haute - 169 AVERAGE: 233 [Corrected]
Wichita - 733
AVERAGE: 348
While the average distance difference per trip is 115 miles greater in the MVC [corrected]; there are three trips that exceed any HL trip. And... no trip is as close as Chicago - Normal being the closet at 158 miles. And BTW the 30 year plan is not a plan; it is a pipe dream at this point with no firm commitment to funding the athletic facilities at this point. The MVC will want tangible movement right away, not in 5, 10 or 20 years.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 01, 2013, 10:52:25 PMAnd BTW the 30 year plan is not a plan; it is a pipe dream at this point with no firm commitment to funding the athletic facilities at this point.
Buying the old hospital shows me that Heckler is willing to put forth the cash and really wants to expand upon his 30 year plan. Maybe going to the MVC will speed up the upgrades of some of their facilities.
And the travelling I don't think will be a problem. Yes, two trips are far in Springfield and Wichita but in the out of conference games they travel all across the country to places further away than Wichita and many of the drives are a reasonable 5 to 6 hour bus ride, which isn't too bad.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 01, 2013, 10:52:25 PM
BTW I was late in getting to this hot topic, but I have come to some conclusions besides my standard facilities rant below;
I like the idea that without Bryce moving on he can move up. Great way to entice him to stay.
I like the higher overall level of competition in all sports, not just Basketball.
I like media respect -- I think it's higher on a national level.
I believe that VU home games against MVC schools on average will draw much better than the average home games vs. HL teams.
I like the idea of playing Indiana State and Evansville again (I'm an old ICC guy)
I do not feel good about the added travel (mainly for the non-basketball sports)
Carbondale - 350 Detroit - 247
Peoria - 191 Cleveland - 307
Cedar Falls - 345 Dayton - 270
Springfield, MO - 537 Chicago - 52
Evansville - 280 Milwaukee - 143
DeMoines - 371 Green Bay - 259
Normal - 158 Youngstown - 365
Terra Haute - 169 AVERAGE: 306
Wichita - 733
AVERAGE: 348
While the average distance difference is only 42 miles, there are three trips that exceed any HL trip. And... no trip is as close as Chicago - Normal being the closet at 158 miles. And BTW the 30 year plan is not a plan; it is a pipe dream at this point with no firm commitment to funding the athletic facilities at this point. The MVC will want tangible movement right away, not in 5, 10 or 20 years.
You may want to double check your math, 62. The HL average looks way too high.
I would like to see the Horizon League be more aggressive instead of waiting for a team to be poached from them. Looking at the Horizon League and the Missouri Valley Conference, here's what I propose. A 14 team conference, 7 team in each division. Play the tournament in Springfield (assuming they have an arena)
Western Division Eastern Division
Green Bay Cleveland State
Milwaukee Wright State
Drake Detroit
Northern Iowa Oakland
Illinois State Valparaiso
Bradley Evansville
Southern Illinois Indiana State
Some general comments from an MVC associate commissioner about Valparaiso, general expansion
http://blogs.post-trib.com/osipoff/2013/04/some_general_comments_from_an_.html (http://blogs.post-trib.com/osipoff/2013/04/some_general_comments_from_an_.html)
Quote from: mj on April 01, 2013, 11:47:18 PMI would like to see the Horizon League be more aggressive instead of waiting for a team to be poached from them. Looking at the Horizon League and the Missouri Valley Conference, here's what I propose. A 14 team conference, 7 team in each division
This ain't gonna happen. Where would Missouri State & Wichita State go? And where'e UIC, Loyola, and Youngstown? as well. I agree that the Horizon needs to be more aggressive but it might be too late for that. If Valpo somehow stays, they need to make a move and fast. If not the Horizon will look a lot like the Summit League does right now, as a hodge podge of mediocre to poor teams, with one okay to good team that is one-and-done in the ncaa tourney.
The MVC travel would be fine for all sports. An average of 348 miles is not bad at all, but this is coming from someone who played in the Mid-Con lol. I think that the travel difference will be negligible, in order to gain an increase national profile. I think that our President and AD realize that athletics can help bring in many more students, just by watching what has happened at Butler. If they commit to facilities improvements, we can be a player in all sports in the MVC
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 01, 2013, 10:52:25 PMWhile the average distance difference is only 42 miles, there are three trips that exceed any HL trip. And... no trip is as close as Chicago - Normal being the closet at 158 miles. And BTW the 30 year plan is not a plan; it is a pipe dream at this point with no firm commitment to funding the athletic facilities at this point. The MVC will want tangible movement right away, not in 5, 10 or 20 years.
Yes, I'm sure the MVC officials will not miss the large area around Brown Field that doesn't have a track and ask when we plan to build the track. I can just see Mark L trying to explain why a track has taken so long to build. That won't go over well at all. I'm sure Mark L is making up his patten response about how that "track of dreams" will now happen when Valpo ties it to a move to the MVC.
"Yeah, sure, right...."
Quote from: valpotx on April 02, 2013, 12:33:12 AM
The MVC travel would be fine for all sports. An average of 348 miles is not bad at all, but this is coming from someone who played in the Mid-Con lol. I think that the travel difference will be negligible, in order to gain an increase national profile. I think that our President and AD realize that athletics can help bring in many more students, just by watching what has happened at Butler. If they commit to facilities improvements, we can be a player in all sports in the MVC
I'll make sure to text the volleyball team your speech when they are driving across the northern Missouri prairie on four lane divided US 36 with stoplights for 4 hours hoping to get to I-29 on the trip to Wichita and when they finally get to Cameron, MO and I-29 they have another 4 hours to go in their 12 hours of driving.
Another snippet of expansion information contained in this article:
http://www.kansas.com/2013/04/01/2742317/missouri-valley-revels-in-wichita.html (http://www.kansas.com/2013/04/01/2742317/missouri-valley-revels-in-wichita.html)
From the article:
Elgin thinks that success will help the conference attract new members if it decides to expand to 10 or 12 teams.
"When Creighton decided to leave, we emphasized that we are not defined by one institution," Elgin said. "There is a depth of strong programs in our league. Tradition and history have shown that we have survived defections. We are not in a panic mode. We are not desperate. We are not freaking out that Creighton is leaving. We have moved on. We knew other teams would step up. Wichita State has certainly proven to the rest of the league we are capable of running with the big boys."
Who else might join the race? The Valley is reportedly looking at UMKC, Valparaiso, Loyola-Chicago and Illinois-Chicago. Elgin refused comment on what schools the league was targeting, but said Valley officials will be making campus visits in the next four weeks. They will then present their findings to the league's presidents.
"We will go from there," Elgin said. "They will make the decision to stay at nine or go to 10 or choose to grow even bigger. We are going to be certainly expeditious in our review and outreach. We are going to move along as quickly as we can in the event we expand for next year. We should have an idea by the end of April."
*******
I read this as a 12 team league not being outside the realm of possibility. IMO, if we're in contention, a move to 12 would really give VU a better shot at an offer than 10 would.
Quote from: wh on April 01, 2013, 11:45:10 PM
You may want to double check your math, 62. The HL average looks way too high.
Oops! That'll teach me to calculate with a pad and pencil at almost midnight after spending half the day on airplanes getting to snowy northern Ontario.
The correct average HL travel distance is
233 not 306.
I corrected my original (for the record). Average distance difference per trip is 115 miles greater in the MVC [corrected]
Thanks WH.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 02, 2013, 05:33:44 AM
Quote from: wh on April 01, 2013, 11:45:10 PM
You may want to double check your math, 62. The HL average looks way too high.
Oops! That'll teach me to calculate on a pad and pencil at almost midnight after spending half the day on airplanes getting to snowy northern Ontario.
The correct average travel distance is 233 not 306.
I corrected my original (for the record).
Thanks WH.
Vous utilisiez kilomètres, correct?
I always found it important to keep this in mind when in northern Ontario.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/service-commitment/snow-ice-control.shtml (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/service-commitment/snow-ice-control.shtml)
oui!
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 02, 2013, 05:33:44 AM
Quote from: wh on April 01, 2013, 11:45:10 PM
You may want to double check your math, 62. The HL average looks way too high.
Oops! That'll teach me to calculate with a pad and pencil at almost midnight after spending half the day on airplanes getting to snowy northern Ontario.
The correct average HL travel distance is 233 not 306.
I corrected my original (for the record). Average distance difference per trip is 115 miles greater in the MVC [corrected]
Thanks WH.
I am not even sure it is that high (233). If you are doing an average wouldn't you have to include both the trip to UIC and Loyola? So there would be a trip of 58 to UIC's Pavilion and 67 to Loyola's Gentile Center making the average 215. I suppose this is just nit picking.
Quote from: bbtds on April 02, 2013, 04:18:48 AMI'll make sure to text the volleyball team your speech when they are driving across the northern Missouri prairie on four lane divided US 36 with stoplights for 4 hours hoping to get to I-29 on the trip to Wichita and when they finally get to Cameron, MO and I-29 they have another 4 hours to go in their 12 hours of driving.
Only two trips would be pretty long, 8 hours to Springfield and 11 to 12 to Wichita. Yes, if every drive was 11 to 12 hours obviously the MVC would not be a good fit, but this is just one school. Wichita State seems to handle it fine, needing to go to Peoria, Evansville, Terre Haute, and Normal. Which are all 7, 8, 9, hour drives. I think we got spoiled being smack in the middle of the Horizon League which is one of the most compact conferences in the country. Yes, the MVC is a bit more spread out than the Horizon but still compared to many different conferences it is quite compact.
Quote from: bbtds on April 02, 2013, 04:18:48 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 02, 2013, 12:33:12 AM
The MVC travel would be fine for all sports. An average of 348 miles is not bad at all, but this is coming from someone who played in the Mid-Con lol. I think that the travel difference will be negligible, in order to gain an increase national profile. I think that our President and AD realize that athletics can help bring in many more students, just by watching what has happened at Butler. If they commit to facilities improvements, we can be a player in all sports in the MVC
I'll make sure to text the volleyball team your speech when they are driving across the northern Missouri prairie on four lane divided US 36 with stoplights for 4 hours hoping to get to I-29 on the trip to Wichita and when they finally get to Cameron, MO and I-29 they have another 4 hours to go in their 12 hours of driving.
Go ahead and do it! We traveled a lot more, and we didn't complain...ever been to SUU???
Quote from: FWalum on April 02, 2013, 08:59:37 AMIf you are doing an average wouldn't you have to include both the trip to UIC and Loyola? So there would be a trip of 58 to UIC's Pavilion and 67 to Loyola's Gentile Center making the average 215. I suppose this is just nit picking.
Maybe just nitpicking. But, if it's any small consolation, you're not the only one who ran the numbers! ;)
You were one up on me though, I just used the Chicago number twice.
Quote from: Goraiders93 on April 01, 2013, 10:13:45 AM
Hey guys. I asked this question on Raider Nation and no one seems to have a definitive answer. For lack of a better thread to add it to, I'll ask it here. After Kevin ware's injury and heading into the second half of Louisville/Duke at Lucas oil Stadium, I noticed the Horizon League logo on the Louisville locker room sign. Later on I also realized it was being sported in the top left corner of the court where the hosting team usually has its logo. Any of you have the scoop on how we got that there for the elite eight?
For a city/arena/facility to host an NCAA tournament event at any level (DI, DII, DIII, D-IA), said city/arena/facility must work with a certified NCAA university to serve as host institution. IUPUI was also one of the host institutions, as was the Indiana Sports Corporation. All those organizations/universities worked with the city and Lucas Oil to serve as NCAA approved host institutions.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 01, 2013, 07:27:20 PMSorry I can't contribute objectively to this discussion, it's an important one to have. I'm still getting used to the Horizon League and I'm beginning to get to know fans from other HL teams. I'm not ready to get another divorce
Get used to it. If Valpo is invited to the MVC it will probably be only for 8 to 10 years before another Midwest mid-major conference is created that wants Valpo and that Valpo wants to be in. It seems some what like the old Mid-Con when teams from Wisconsin to Alabama to Louisiana to Oklahoma to Utah to Connecticut to western New York and places in between were in the conference. It's just that now the changes happen more rapidly and in complete strokes of changes but seem mostly concentrated in the "Greater" midwest area.
I would think, given the added revenue created by being in the Valley, even in our own attendance (re: watching Wichita State vs. Chicago State), that we could possibly fly our teams to Wichita versus driving 12 hours one way.
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 01:25:55 PM
I would think, given the added revenue created by being in the Valley, even in our own attendance (re: watching Wichita State vs. Chicago State), that we could possibly fly our teams to Wichita versus driving 12 hours one way.
All of the teams? Including T&F, Tennis, Swimming & Diving, etc.?
Quote from: isu87 on March 31, 2013, 09:51:40 PM
How many NCAA units does the Horizon have accumulated? (over the past 6 years?)
I will refer everyone back to the NCAA Tournament Split thread of March 2011. At that time Butler was in the sweet 16 and our units were at 19 (I think). So the answer is yes, any team that would decide to jump could be leaving wheelbarrows full of money behind to the Horizon League.
Quote from: bbtds on March 31, 2013, 10:45:25 PMIsn't the biggest money that Valpo will be leaving behind be Butler's money from 2 Final Fours. Most of this money was left behind by Butler to the Horizon League.
Quote from: bbtds on March 31, 2013, 10:45:25 PMAlso there will be a significant exit fee from the HL for Valpo.
On top of all this lost revenue and exit fees we have now determined that the average additional one way mileage to MVC schools over HL schools is about 133 miles. You folks can do the math any way you like but it is easy to see where a jump to a Creighton-less and only slightly better future basketball conference does have some downside.
Quote from: justducky on April 02, 2013, 04:22:50 PMOn top of all this lost revenue and exit fees we have now determined that the average additional one way mileage to MVC schools over HL schools is about 133 miles. You folks can do the math any way you like but it is easy to see where a jump to a Creighton-less and only slightly better future basketball conference does have some downside.
If the HL would go out and get one of the top two in the OVC then I would agree with you. As I stated before, an
improved HL is probably the best of both worlds, but if the HL gets raided by the MVC or another conference then I think we will only have slim pickens coming from the likes of the Summit League to fill the gaps. There would also most likely be some negotiation with the MVC as to how their NCAA money gets distributed and how an incoming school would participate. This article gives you an Idea as to the MVC's current units and how many they would have starting next year. http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/31/wichita-states-shocking-run-to-final-four-produces-financial-windfall-for-missouri-valley-conference/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/31/wichita-states-shocking-run-to-final-four-produces-financial-windfall-for-missouri-valley-conference/) In the short run staying in a status quo HL might be better, but I think the long run favors even a Creighton-less MVC if we would switch conferences.
The increased mileage analysis is also dependent upon context. Look, whether we like to admit it or not, part of conference affiliation is not just athletic, but it is also academic. I think VU is finally realizing the importance of this concept at the D-I level as an institution. University presidents prefer to align themselves with like-minded, associate peer institutions in general. The Big Ten exercises this concept (AAU), the A-10 exercises this concept (largely private), the C-7 exercised this concept (all private and near all Catholic), and to some extent so does the MVC and the HL (decent public/private mix). However, if LUC moves to the MVC or UDM moves to the A-10, the disparity in this respect increases to VU's detriment. If this matters to Valpo, while increased travel might affect athletics, a 133 mile travel differential will be negligible at best juxtaposed against consideration, IMO.
What about a Wichita State-less MVC as well? Their board is now talking about rumors of the MWC and Old Big East/America 12/whatever possibly wanting them. It could just be them talking like Detroit fans were about the Catholic 7 inviting them though :)
Quote from: bbtds on April 02, 2013, 02:00:02 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 01:25:55 PM
I would think, given the added revenue created by being in the Valley, even in our own attendance (re: watching Wichita State vs. Chicago State), that we could possibly fly our teams to Wichita versus driving 12 hours one way.
All of the teams? Including T&F, Tennis, Swimming & Diving, etc.?
Missouri State and Wichita State are the obvious outliers for Valpo. Travel to the other 7 schools is very similar to what Valpo has in the Horizon. (Avg. to those 7 is 266 miles, vs. the 212 avg. for Valpo to the 8 Horizon schools).
I've raised this before in other threads, but the travel doesn't necessarily impact all programs. Of 16 sports sponsored by the MVC, just over half (MBB, WBB, baseball, softball, tennis-M, tennis-W, soccer-M, soccer-W and Volleyball) play a regular season conference schedule. Only basketball plays each team twice, so in the other sports this means 4 or 5 (or less based on participation) road trips for conference games. And as I stated earlier, unless you have to go to Missouri State or Wichita, the travel shouldn't be much different than the Horizon.
For the other sports (CC-M, CC-W, Golf-M, Golf-W, Swimming-W, T&F-M and T&F-W), teams don't play a regular season conference schedule. They compete regionally in multi-team invitational meets and then compete in a conference championship. Similar to what currently happens in the Horizon. (On a side note, the MVC does not sponsor men's swimming and diving ... Missouri State competes in the MAC).
Will travel costs increase? Yes. But assuming that every team will incur huge increases is not exactly true. As vu72 points out, the decision may hinge on whether revenue (attendance, tournament shares, TV) will increase enough to cover the increase in travel costs.
I wonder if some VU old-timers on occasion long for the days of the old Indiana Collegiate Conference: VU, Butler, Wabash, DePauw, St. Joseph's, Ball State, and Indiana State. I'm one of them.
I would be willing to bet that someone at VU, at some level, has at some point raised the idea of junking Division I athletics and returning to D3 competition. That way we could at least join up with a conference comprised entirely of like-minded academic institutions, and do away with discussions that center on whether a 233-mile one-way trip to play a softball game is a good thing for our student-athletes.
Paul
Quote from: valpotx on April 02, 2013, 05:21:51 PMWhat about a Wichita State-less MVC as well?
That's fine with me too--they're the SUU of the MVC :) Obviously they are very good, but losing them is balanced by the lack of travel and increased ability to go in and win (although if UMKC comes in--ewww--then that's a really bad trade).
Dave 2010 said
QuoteMy money would be on the WAC and Summit fighting for programs until one finally gives up the ghost with the WAC and western Summit teams in one league and the eastern Summit teams looking at the HL or OVC.
I'll tell you why this won't happen--each conference has a golden ticket to the Dance. Combining conferences will cause one of these magical tickets to disappear (which is basically what only the power conferences want anyway). What you have described regarding realignment is similar to a boat sinking--in such cases, people aren't consolidating lifeboats--but using what they have and maximizing their fit. The programs in the Summit, WAC, etc. might well be content to be the "yankees of the mid-con" as we were for so long. The "big fish in a small pond" theory.
This is in turn why a 14-team conference won't happen--to say nothing of reduced income when divided 14 rather than by 10 ways--for the same reason the NHLPA was not a fan of the realignment in which case 14 teams compete for 8 spots in the west and 16 for 8 in the east. Being a bigger conference doesn't get you a second bid automatically--being good does.
I am sure it has as well, and then just like on here when setshot brings up the topic, it is probably quickly laughed off :). No one outside of the midwest would hear of Valpo anymore, which would lead to reduced applications for enrollment. Since the midwest is losing population to the south, it would be completely counter-productive to our stated goal of increasing enrollment.
What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve
Pros
1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3) Increased attendance both home and away
Cons
1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)
Basically a wash
1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
I don't understand the idea that we would increase attendance
Do you really think people are chomping at the bit to see us play Ind st or any of these other schools?
No way
Butler was our last chance of having a "rival" and to get the stands packed
[Hmm.. I forgot to hit "post" on this. I'll do it blindly, at risk of it being horribly out of context after the last eight replies.]
Quote from: FWalum on April 02, 2013, 05:01:28 PMhttp://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/31/wichita-states-shocking-run-to-final-four-produces-financial-windfall-for-missouri-valley-conference/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/31/wichita-states-shocking-run-to-final-four-produces-financial-windfall-for-missouri-valley-conference/)
A nice, brief, piece.
For the 2012-13 fiscal year, where the MVC was on 13 units, by my calculation the Horizon League was on 22 units (thanks mostly to Butler's two national runner-up runs). Worth, in this fiscal year, about $4.6M to the conference using the figures from the Forbes piece.
For next fiscal year, based on the addition of this year's results, the MVC will go up to 16 (or 17), and the Horizon will go down to 19.
I've forgotten the formula, but I think it's known how the Horizon League divides the NCAA money?
Do we know how the MVC does it?
(And, indeed, exceptions might be made when new teams enter...)
I've got to think there is a lot more to it than just the NCAA money. Corporate sponsors are most likely much better in the Valley and who knows about there tv deal. Their title game is on CBS as an example.
Quote from: jimdandy on April 02, 2013, 06:08:26 PMI don't understand the idea that we would increase attendance
If for no other reason than that a lot of these teams travel well (Bradley for one). Plus average attendance is much higher in the MVC.
Home attendance will be higher because better teams will be coming--and I do think ISU would draw more local interest than UIC or WSU, for example. And some of the rivalries will simply be rekindled from AMCU/MCC days, which is nice.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PM
What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve
Pros
1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3) Increased attendance both home and away
Cons
1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)
Basically a wash
1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades.
Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football.
Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PMWash 3) Geography/Travel.
is an average trip being 75% longer really a wash?
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 07:17:00 PMHome attendance will be higher because better teams will be coming--and I do think ISU would draw more local interest than UIC or WSU, for example. And some of the rivalries will simply be rekindled from AMCU/MCC days, which is nice.
I totally agree. There is a lot more desire to see a "good" Indiana State team than a "fair to middling" Green Bay or Wright State team. Probably a "poor" ISU team doesn't draw well and a "fair to middling" ISU team slightly better than a Green Bay or Wright State of the same quality draws.I think Evansville would draw even better than ISU due to their history with Valpo.
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 07:16:36 PM
I've got to think there is a lot more to it than just the NCAA money. Corporate sponsors are most likely much better in the Valley and who knows about there tv deal. Their title game is on CBS as an example.
I will not address this because of my total ignorance but this might be important and somebody should look at putting some numbers to it.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 07:17:00 PMHome attendance will be higher because better teams will be coming--and I do think ISU would draw more local interest than UIC or WSU, for example. And some of the rivalries will simply be rekindled from AMCU/MCC days, which is nice.
I will take a stab at this question. Lets say that average conference game attendance is increased by an additional 600 fans if we were added as a 10'th MVC team.(a high side estimate, but may be doable) 600 fans x 9 games= 5400 extra tickets x maybe $20.00 average ticket price= $108,000 in additional mens basketball revenue. I think most of us would agree that the increase in total (all sports) revenue could at best be not much higher than say $140,000. I know nothing about charter bus rates so just how far in extra mileage is that going to take us?
There are a lot of numbers to crunch before a decision is made but the more I look at this the more I believe that the MVC would have to be far more generous to us than they think they should have to be.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PM
What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve
Pros
1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3) Increased attendance both home and away
Cons
1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)
Basically a wash
1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades.
Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football.
Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.
Agreed. I know in my case I will be circling a few games on my schedule that I will be looking forward too. Last year the only one that I was looking forward to was Detroit. While in the MVC there will be 3 or 4. This will bring in increased cash flow as well. In both men's and women's basketball games, which is where they make most of their money from.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 08:40:07 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PMWash 3) Geography/Travel.
is an average trip being 75% longer really a wash?
Relative to what? The HL? Maybe, maybe not. VU D-I conference history? Absolutely.
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Alabama, Louisiana, Central Connecticut, or Southern Utah anymore."
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 09:36:56 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PM
What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve
Pros
1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3) Increased attendance both home and away
Cons
1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)
Basically a wash
1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades.
Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football.
Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.
And if schools move up to FBS via the MAC? Or a new FBS conference emerges out west? Sun Belt? Think outside the box.
Crunched Some of the numbers and for win percentage and NCAA appearances for the Creightonless MVC and the Butlerless Horizon. Both teams were on top of there league and they both left. For those still remaining on the edge or don't see the MVC being that great well here ya go... (These numbers are since the 07-08 season, first year Valpo was in the Horizon)
There have been 4 other MVC teams to make the tournament and have won 7 games (including Wichita State's current run) and only have lost 5. While since the 07-08 the Horizon has only sent 3 other teams to the tourney and 2 have been since Butler was gone, and have only won a single game (CSU) and losing the other 3.
The Horizon's 3 worst teams in that time span: UIC 39%, Loyola 42%, and YSU 36%, is worse than the MVC's worst team from during that span, Southern Illinois at 43%. The MVC also has 7 teams with a .500 plus winning percentage compared to the Horizon's 5 teams. The MVC has had a 54% win percentage compared to a 49% win percentage for the Horizon in that same time span.
I'm hoping Valpo is offered the chance to go to the MVC, because based off of those numbers it's a no brainer to me. Yes, it is a little more travelling an in smaller cities but all-in-all it will be much more beneficial to the program.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 09:42:51 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 09:36:56 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PM
What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve
Pros
1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3) Increased attendance both home and away
Cons
1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)
Basically a wash
1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades.
Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football.
Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.
And if schools move up to FBS via the MAC? Or a new FBS conference emerges out west? Sun Belt? Think outside the box.
Pro 5) talked to one of my sports management friends today who has contacts in both conferences and was told that MVC television deal much better than HL.
Quote from: FWalum on April 03, 2013, 12:12:08 AMPro 5) talked to one of my sports management friends today who has contacts in both conferences and was told that MVC television deal much better than HL.
Even though I do love the Horizon League Network that streams all the games online for free. Having the games on television on a network people watch, is great publicity for the team. If most of the home games are on Comcast Sports Net or something similar, it bodes much better than all the games being on the internet and most people have no idea that they are going on.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 03, 2013, 12:20:56 AMit bodes much better than all the games being on the internet and most people have no idea that they are going on.
I dunno...the people that are the target market know. i have a hard time imagining a bar in (say) South Bend putting on the Southern Illinois-Missouri State game, no matter what time of day.
Also, while I suppose the MVC has a better TV deal overall, and their final was on CBS, all previous rounds were all online, on their own MVC-TV. At least our semis were on the U.
http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf (http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf)
While there are a lot more games on (mostly FOX), there are fewer on the ESPN family (not that that's a bad thing necessarily), just saying.
It looks like we'd be watching the internet a lot anyways, still.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 09:41:11 PMRelative to what? The HL? Maybe, maybe not. VU D-I conference history? Absolutely.
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Alabama, Louisiana, Central Connecticut, or Southern Utah anymore."
Kind of blown away that while we're comparing the HL and the MVC you brought in the Mid-Con...seriously? That's like watching the Romney-Obama debate and complaining about John Kerry's performance. Or James Stockdale's, if you're a junkie.
Let's not forget that two of the main criteria Mark LaBarbara cited with the move to the HL was 1) minimizing travel time for
student-athletes (emphasis added because too often forgotten) and 2) playing in cities with high concentrations of VU alumni.
So a move to the MVC means either a) he wasn't really serious about those reasons in the first place or b) it really is all about the almighty dollar trumping everything else but c) we will lose a lot of those dollars in such a move anyway.
So maybe it is all about keeping Bryce happy, which, in the end, is good enough for me.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 03, 2013, 07:35:12 AMI dunno...the people that are the target market know. i have a hard time imagining a bar in (say) South Bend putting on the Southern Illinois-Missouri State game, no matter what time of day.
Chances are a bar in South Bend would not have that game on as one of their big games of the night but to the guy sitting at home, watching tv, looking for a good game on tv, and they come across an MVC game that is close with 10 minutes left, they'll be likely to stop and watch. I know that's what I do, channel surf for a good game, even though I might not have a rooting interest in it. I know not every game will be on tv but there will definitely be more on tv than there were with the Horizon. Yes, the online system for the Horizon is wonderful and free but to the college basketball fan looking for a good game on tv, they didn't have the chance to stop at a Horizon game because it wasn't on tv to start with. Being on tv will bring in more money and publicity than the HLN ever did, it also might help recruiting as well, when kids can just turn the tv on and see Valpo, while if they were looking at going to a Horizon team they wouldn't be able to see them.
Realignment approaching for the Horizon League and Missouri Valley
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2013/4/1/4170684/realignment-approaching-for-the-horizon-league-and-missouri-valley (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2013/4/1/4170684/realignment-approaching-for-the-horizon-league-and-missouri-valley)
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 09:36:56 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PMQuote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PMWhat would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.
I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision. Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time. Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.
**********
Let's not forget that two of the main criteria Mark LaBarbara cited with the move to the HL was 1) minimizing travel time for student-athletes (emphasis added because too often forgotten) and 2) playing in cities with high concentrations of VU alumni.
So a move to the MVC means either a) he wasn't really serious about those reasons in the first place or b) it really is all about the almighty dollar trumping everything else but c) we will lose a lot of those dollars in such a move anyway.
So maybe it is all about keeping Bryce happy, which, in the end, is good enough for me.
[/quote]
**********
LAA, not sure I understand why you're so floored by considering past conference history in this analysis. Is the discussion of reviving conference relationships with Missouri State or Northern Iowa from the AMCU-8 irrelevant too? I say no.
I guess ML is really going to be hamstrung if we stay in the Horizon League since we'll have to nix the admission of schools like Belmont, Murray, Drexel, or any others that are "outside" of the current geographical footprint because travel is likely to increase in order to get to 12 quality additions. Note that the distance between Drexel and VU is about the same as it is between Wichita and VU. There's only a 330 mile difference between a trip from VU to Belmont and a trip from VU to WSU. We're not talking about extremely large distances here, particularly if you factor in past trips to SUU or Troy State.
If an announcement were made today that Drexel and Belmont were joining the HL, would anyone take this as bad news at this point? I doubt it. Sure, I bet some here would say that we should circle back and explore the MVC because it is more aligned with our current geographic footprint, but yet the length of the longest road trip (Drexel) would be nearly identical to the length of the longest road trip in the MVC (WSU). So why are we getting nervous about traveling to Wichita and having minimal increased travel? If the HL expands with quality additions, travel is likely to increase anyway. I'm telling you, this distance thing is all relative between the HL and MVC.
In my mind, all things considered, travel and geography are a wash. I guess that was the point I was trying to make.
I only hope that if we do join the MVC, and it is for the upcoming school year, that our baseball/softball teams are not excluded from championships this season. Our softball team is kicking butt again, and it would be a sad ending to a few senior's careers
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 03, 2013, 10:05:11 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 09:36:56 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PMQuote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PMWhat would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.
I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision. Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time. Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.
I was not specifically alluding to Drake in that concern. The concern rests with the scholarship FCS programs. We're simply discussing potential pros and cons. The worry about having more than one FCS football playing school move to FBS does not exist in the HL. How do you know those schools won't go to big time football? Maybe they won't now, but what about 5 or 10 years from now? Given that the Big Ten has already stated that they will no longer schedule FCS schools and schools like Appy St. and GA Southern have made the move up, you have to at least take potential movement into consideration, IMO.
I believe that the MVC will still be the better conference in this scenario. It seems like the leagues that have a better reputation, essentially just take on the high level teams from the lower leagues, and become the leagues that were below them:
Old Big East has become the old CUSA
CUSA has become the old Sun Belt
MWC has become the old WAC
WAC has become...crap
MVC poaches HL
HL poaches Summit
Summit poaches whatever is out there at a lower level
We would much rather be in the MVC now regardless of any defections they have, than to be in a revamped Summit under the HL name. The MVC name will always be able to attract high level mid-majors, whereas the HL has run out of those types of options
I don't think anyone here has ever seriously suggested Drexel...they would join the A-10 anyway. The only time they've ever been mentioned among the eighty-four threads on expansion on this board was here
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=892.0 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=892.0) and only to mock the very suggestion.
But let's take that into consideration seriously for a moment. Drexel is 722 miles from Valpo; Belmont 446.
Adding them into the HL equation still leaves the MVC 21.6% longer. Seriously, ponder that. We could add a school in Filthydelphia and Nashvegas to the HL and STILL be spending less in travel costs than we would in the MVC.
So, no, "not a wash".
I don't see how it is such a big issue with the travel. Yes, some of the MVC schools are a bit further away but we will still be playing 5 road games in both Indiana and Illinois and obviously half our games will be still at home in Valpo. We have been spoiled in the sense that we were dead center in one of the most geographically compact conferences in the country. Most of the trips aren't that bad 5 to 6 hours. The only 2 outlying schools are WSU and MSU. But that's just two trips a year. Most of the time the teams spend a night in a hotel, so all there will be is the extra money will be for gasoline, in the big picture that won't be too big a difference compared to all of the other expenses. And I believe the increased attendance to games will equal out the extra money in gas and we will still have excess left over. Yes, more driving equals more gas, but better attendance equals more money.
Quote from: valpotx on April 03, 2013, 10:32:00 AM
I only hope that if we do join the MVC, and it is for the upcoming school year, that our baseball/softball teams are not excluded from championships this season. Our softball team is kicking butt again, and it would be a sad ending to a few senior's careers
They would probably hold out announcing the decision until Valpo is done in the softball/baseball post season.
It seems like we all have gotten sucked into the mileage mathematical puzzle. When the HL expands I hope that we are not adding the IUPUI, IPFW or other SL teams just because they fall in the current footprint. In order to remain a relevant basketball conference the HL will most likely need to expand the footprint, as crusaderjoe so astutely expressed in his post, in order to get teams that are consistently -100 rpi teams like Belmont or Murray State. Two such new trips would increase the HL average trip length considerably. Adding two short trips, if UIC, Loyola and VU were all added, would significantly change the average trip length in the MVC. So, what is the answer to the question?
What teams and how many will the HL add... and will we get invited to the MVC... and if we do what other teams if any would also come along? What decision better serves the the needs of the student athlete? Do we even know what is important to our student athletes? Are the alumni better served by the possibility of seeing a game in their current city of residence or being able to catch 5 more games on television? Will we get more midwest media exposure in the HL or MVC? Does anybody really know what is happening on the realignment landscape? Alumni and friends of the university want to get something back from Valpo and this comes chiefly from the sense of pride you receive in VU's accomplishments both academically and athletically. I almost wish that athletics weren't so important to a school's brand and recognition, but they are. If you have a working crystal ball then please let the AD and administrators know the answers to these questions. If not, then please pray that the good Lord gives them wisdom to make the proper decisions that will benefit our university and his kingdom.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 03, 2013, 12:19:47 PM
I don't see how it is such a big issue with the travel. Yes, some of the MVC schools are a bit further away but we will still be playing 5 road games in both Indiana and Illinois and obviously half our games will be still at home in Valpo. We have been spoiled in the sense that we were dead center in one of the most geographically compact conferences in the country. Most of the trips aren't that bad 5 to 6 hours. The only 2 outlying schools are WSU and MSU. But that's just two trips a year. Most of the time the teams spend a night in a hotel, so all there will be is the extra money will be for gasoline, in the big picture that won't be too big a difference compared to all of the other expenses. And I believe the increased attendance to games will equal out the extra money in gas and we will still have excess left over. Yes, more driving equals more gas, but better attendance equals more money.
It's wasn't really about travel costs, although it was big in the old Mid-Con, but about time away from the class room when Valpo moved to the Horizon League. A study needs to be done about time lost from the class room in the MVC.
Also the dedication of the schools in the MVC to student academic performance needs to be questioned. There was not a lot of doubt that the HL really emphasized academic excellence of the student athlete. How does the MVC treat this part of the student athlete experience?
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 03, 2013, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 03, 2013, 10:05:11 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 09:36:56 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PMQuote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PMWhat would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.
I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision. Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time. Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.
I was not specifically alluding to Drake in that concern. The concern rests with the scholarship FCS programs. We're simply discussing potential pros and cons. The worry about having more than one FCS football playing school move to FBS does not exist in the HL. How do you know those schools won't go to big time football? Maybe they won't now, but what about 5 or 10 years from now? Given that the Big Ten has already stated that they will no longer schedule FCS schools and schools like Appy St. and GA Southern have made the move up, you have to at least take potential movement into consideration, IMO.
Can someone please explain this concern to me? The Missouri Valley Football Conference is a different conference than what we are potentially joining. Thus, if, say, North Dakota State decided to move to FBS in football and the entire conference didn't want to, the Missouri Valley Football Conference would lose a member. If you are suggesting that the entire school's athletic program would have to move then that is a different issue. Many school's play different sports in different conferences so what am I missing?
Quote from: FWalum on April 03, 2013, 01:58:31 PMBelmont or Murray State. Two such new trips would increase the HL average trip length considerably.
It increases it, but not considerably: it only takes HL avg trip from 215 to
260, a 21% increase.
Still less than 75% of the average MVC trip.
Average essentially remains the same if Oakland is added (257 miles).
Best case scenario for MVC travel: the three HL schools join and WSU leaves. Average travel there...becomes
253, or just about what (reasonable) worst-case scenario HL travel is.
It's not nothing. Nor is it the most important factor in discussion, certainly. But it can't be sloughed off the table, either.
Quote from: FWalum on April 03, 2013, 01:58:31 PMAre the alumni better served by the possibility of seeing a game in their current city of residence or being able to catch 5 more games on television? Will we get more midwest media exposure in the HL or MVC?
I'm sure some alumni will be upset with the move to the MVC but on the other hand the fans in downstate Illinois and Indiana will be very happy to see that there will be Valpo games played in the Indy area again and Central/Southern Illinois. Me being a current student I know many people who moved downstate in Indiana, more so than to places like Cleveland, Detroit, or Milwaukee. So I think we would increase in alumni attending road games. Losing the two Chicago teams hurt but it's not like Valpo is that far from Chicago. I will miss making the trek into Chicago from Valpo to see them play UIC and Loyola but if it means better teams are coming to the ARC I will take that deal any day of the week.
I also think there will be a substantial increase in Midwest media exposure, there will be more televised games so more people will naturally tune in to watch. I also think there are more MVC fans out there than Horizon fans out there, who will watch a game on tv just because it's an MVC team involved even if it is not their team.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 03, 2013, 02:37:28 PMBest case scenario for MVC travel: the three HL schools join and WSU leaves. Average travel there...becomes 253, or just about what (reasonable) worst-case scenario HL travel is.
I don't see it being that big of a deal to have to travel to WSU, it's just one trip a year. If we had 5 or 6 10-12 hour drives then we don't belong but it's just 1.
Quote from: vu72 on April 03, 2013, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 03, 2013, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 03, 2013, 10:05:11 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 09:36:56 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PMQuote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PMWhat would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.
I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision. Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time. Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.
I was not specifically alluding to Drake in that concern. The concern rests with the scholarship FCS programs. We're simply discussing potential pros and cons. The worry about having more than one FCS football playing school move to FBS does not exist in the HL. How do you know those schools won't go to big time football? Maybe they won't now, but what about 5 or 10 years from now? Given that the Big Ten has already stated that they will no longer schedule FCS schools and schools like Appy St. and GA Southern have made the move up, you have to at least take potential movement into consideration, IMO.
Can someone please explain this concern to me? The Missouri Valley Football Conference is a different conference than what we are potentially joining. Thus, if, say, North Dakota State decided to move to FBS in football and the entire conference didn't want to, the Missouri Valley Football Conference would lose a member. If you are suggesting that the entire school's athletic program would have to move then that is a different issue. Many school's play different sports in different conferences so what am I missing?
Sorry 72--didn't mean to confuse the board. What I'm talking about is an an all sports move (or near all sports move) to an FBS football conference because a scholarship FCS football school wants to make the move up.
Quote from: bbtds on April 03, 2013, 02:05:38 PMAlso the dedication of the schools in the MVC to student academic performance needs to be questioned. There was not a lot of doubt that the HL really emphasized academic excellence of the student athlete. How does the MVC treat this part of the student athlete experience?
The MVC website shows this http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/default/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/default/)and this http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/emersonaward/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/emersonaward/)and this http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/elite18/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/elite18/)and this http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/drwestaward/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/drwestaward/)and the interesting staff award http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/spiritofthevalley/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/spiritofthevalley/) Spirit of the Valley Award.I would call these awards minimal on the student athlete academic excellence and student athlete community involvement areas as compared to the Horizon League.
Even if Valpo joins the MVC, there will be nothing preventing Valpo from holding their student athletes to a high standard in academics. Just because the MVC doesn't seem to hold their students to as high of standards as the Horizon, there is no reason why Valpo still can't hold their student athletes to high academic standards.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 03, 2013, 05:05:06 PMEven if Valpo joins the MVC, there will be nothing preventing Valpo from holding their student athletes to a high standard in academics. Just because the MVC doesn't seem to hold their students to as high of standards as the Horizon, there is no reason why Valpo still can't hold their student athletes to high academic standards.
You are correct. What I fear is those who don't see athletics as a means to further Valpo's enrollment goal will use this as a reason not to up our conference affiliation.
I think Valpo should join the MVC if offered (it would be more clear 5 years down the road when the HL is replacing certain schools with Oakland, IUPUI, or IPFW). As stated before I feel Belmont and Murray State would go to the MVC before the Horizon. I'm just not seeing the Horizon getting better at this point, and if we miss an opportunity to jump now, we could be stuck for a long time. The MVC is either going to 10 or 12, and if Valpo turns down a bid, they'd have to wait years before a team drops, or they find a team to join with Valpo. Look at Butler. If they didn't jump ship and join the A-10, do you think they would be in the C7 next year? I'm not so sure they would.
As for the TV deal. Assume Valpo is a middle of the pack MVC team. Refer to my spreadsheet image made earlier:
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/820/mvcrpis.png)
Here's the NATIONAL TV conference schedule. In parenthesis are tourney games.
Valpo - ESPN 0 (1), ESPNU 3 (1), ESPN2 2
MO St - FSN National 1
Drake - ESPNU 1
Evansville - ESPNU 2
Bradley - ESPNU 1
SIU - ESPNU 2
Okay, and look at the others...
Indiana St - ESPNU 1
Illinois St - ESPN2 1, ESPNU 2, FSN National 2
Wichita St - CBS 0 (1), ESPN2 3, ESPNU 2
Northern Iowa - ESPN2 1
So it's not like they're getting on TV much more or have an outlandish TV deal. Their semifinal game was just on MVC network. Imagine if our semi final game was on HL Network. Goodbye Sportscenter/ESPN Broekhoff shot exposure.
There were more regional games in the MVC... in 2011 they were on FS MW 36 times. Even if they signed a better deal with CBS Sports or NBC Sports, it still isn't in the basic sports package (at least for DIRECTV).
It also appears that MVC network isn't full time - there are conference games that AREN'T EVEN COVERED! How crazy is that!?
But like I said, a future Horizon League would probably get a crappier TV deal in the future now that Butler is gone. The deal 3 years ago was after the first Butler championship run - http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/2010-02-02/horizon-league-espn-announce-multi-year-deal-through-2013 (http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/2010-02-02/horizon-league-espn-announce-multi-year-deal-through-2013) and I'm certain ESPN would pull back on games now that their flagship school is out. The MVC could probably get a better deal next time around now that WSU has made the final four.
Let's keep the discussion on the "Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?" post found here
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1386.msg31408#new (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1386.msg31408#new)
(but feel free to discuss developing results here.)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 03, 2013, 07:03:46 PM
Let's keep the discussion on the "Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?" post found here
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1386.msg31408#new (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1386.msg31408#new)
(but feel free to discuss developing results here.)
Merged the poll into this topic to keep it all in one place.
Two things I'd like to know about before making a move to the MVC.
Will the Valpo board actually make a committment to funding the Valpo athletic dept needed for competing at the top level of the MVC?
What plans does the HL have if any for HL expansion for 2013-14 and beyond?
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 03, 2013, 10:49:37 AMQuote from: usc4valpo on April 03, 2013, 10:05:11 AMQuote from: vu72 on April 02, 2013, 09:36:56 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 02, 2013, 08:32:10 PMQuote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 02, 2013, 06:00:15 PMWhat would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?
Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.
This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.
I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision. Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time. Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.
I was not specifically alluding to Drake in that concern. The concern rests with the scholarship FCS programs. We're simply discussing potential pros and cons. The worry about having more than one FCS football playing school move to FBS does not exist in the HL. How do you know those schools won't go to big time football? Maybe they won't now, but what about 5 or 10 years from now? Given that the Big Ten has already stated that they will no longer schedule FCS schools and schools like Appy St. and GA Southern have made the move up, you have to at least take potential movement into consideration, IMO.
Indiana State and Illinois State have small stadiums and I am sure they are not thinking about expanding and going big time FBS. As for Drake, there is no way, they are in the same mode as Valpo, providing football as a feature in their overall portfolio. Also, the MVC does NOT have a football conference, as Indiana State, Illinois State and Northern Iowa play in the Gateway conference. Regarding football that is way above Valpo's league (actually so is the Pioneer if you think about it).
Quote from: bbtds on April 03, 2013, 07:39:00 PM
Two things I'd like to know about before making a move to the MVC.
Will the Valpo board actually make a committment to funding the Valpo athletic dept needed for competing at the top level of the MVC?
What plans does the HL have if any for HL expansion for 2013-14 and beyond?
I hereby make a $10 pledge to get us started! ;)
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 03, 2013, 09:14:52 PM
Indiana State and Illinois State have small stadiums and I am sure they are not thinking about expanding and going big time FBS. As for Drake, there is no way, they are in the same mode as Valpo, providing football as a feature in their overall portfolio. Also, the MVC does NOT have a football conference, as Indiana State, Illinois State and Northern Iowa play in the Gateway conference. Regarding football that is way above Valpo's league (actually so is the Pioneer if you think about it).
Not quite accurate. They play in the separate Missouri Valley Football Conference (MVFC) that includes the scholarship FCS schools in the MVC plus North Dakota State (Summit in everything else), USD (Summit in everything else), SDSU (Summit in everything else), Youngstown State (HL in everything else), and Western Illinois (Summit in everything else).
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 03, 2013, 09:14:52 PMIndiana State and Illinois State have small stadiums and I am sure they are not thinking about expanding and going big time FBS. As for Drake, there is no way, they are in the same mode as Valpo, providing football as a feature in their overall portfolio. Also, the MVC does NOT have a football conference, as Indiana State, Illinois State and Northern Iowa play in the Gateway conference. Regarding football that is way above Valpo's league (actually so is the Pioneer if you think about it).
Was just at ISU a few weeks ago and they are currently making major upgrade to their football stadium. Visitor bleachers used to be worse than Valpo's but will now be the staple of the stadium with press box, suites, and concessions. ISU has shown investment in their sports teams (with their football stadium and Redbird arena) however I don't too anxious to move up a level in any of their sports. They seem to fit in well within the community. I'm not too familiar with the MVFC but I don't feel like football is the sport everyone cares about at ISU unlike Youngstown St.
Artist Rendition of Hancock Stadium Flythrough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkztvnDPPpk#)
Quote from: historyman on April 03, 2013, 06:05:24 PMQuote from: classof2014 on April 03, 2013, 05:05:06 PMEven if Valpo joins the MVC, there will be nothing preventing Valpo from holding their student athletes to a high standard in academics. Just because the MVC doesn't seem to hold their students to as high of standards as the Horizon, there is no reason why Valpo still can't hold their student athletes to high academic standards.
You are correct. What I fear is those who don't see athletics as a means to further Valpo's enrollment goal will use this as a reason not to up our conference affiliation.
What? There are some good schools in the MVC adademically. Drake and Bradley maintain high academic standards for their student athletes. Regarding academics, they are in the pretty much in line with the HL.
Apparently yesterday Bryce Drew was coaching LaVonte on some of his shooting. I know that there isn't anything unusual about that but what was unusual Bryce was in a suit! Wonder who he was trying to impress???
IF (and I know it's a big if) the HL were still able to add say Oakland, Murray State and Belmont as we have discussed previously, I would much prefer to stay in the HL. On paper the HL with that composition would leapfrog the MVC absent Creighton and immediately gain a new level of respect. More, there wouldn't be any reason for anyone to want to jump ship in the future, which could stabilize things for the HL and let the turbulent sea of seemingly never ending change play out somewhere else. If I can see this as a fan, I still have some small glimmer of hope that The HL Commissioner's has been and still is working toward that end. Maybe just maybe, he hasn't fumbled the ball as I accused him of earlier. Maybe this is all going to work out. Maybe just maybe...
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 09:10:18 AM
Apparently yesterday Bryce Drew was coaching LaVonte on some of his shooting. I know that there isn't anything unusual about that but what was unusual Bryce was in a suit! Wonder who he was trying to impress???
Meanwhile, Larry Eustachy was teaching his Colorado State boys how to shoot while wearing his T.G.I. Fridays uniform. They all went out and got hammered afterwards.
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/319842954837647360
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 09:26:14 AMMeanwhile, Larry Eustachy was teaching his Colorado State boys how to shoot while wearing his T.G.I. Fridays uniform. They all went out and got hammered afterwards.
Probably the funniest post on this board. Thank you.
https://twitter.com/HLHoops/status/319865465277136896
well :censored: is (finally) getting real.
for those of you who gave up twitter for Easter, Jimmy the Panther is saying UIC to MVC and some other HL dude saying Oakland to HL.
I'm not sure of his sources, but if PantherU is correct and UIC will be moving to the MVC with two other schools for a total of 12, I see Valpo a logical choice to accompany UIC. I can't see the MVC selecting two Chicago teams competing with one another for attention; therefore, that would take Loyola out. In addition, Valparaiso is a better basketball program and could provide a travel partner for UIC.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 04, 2013, 12:13:21 PM
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/319842954837647360
If this is true wouldn't be surprised to see Loyola, UIC, and Valpo to go then. Make the conference up to 12 and get the Chicago market involved.
Eh...anyone consider that maybe the HL wanted UIC to go?
Look, they've been to the NCAA all of three times, none since GWB's first term. Never won a game.
Great facilities, sure, but their athletic budget and basketball budget are smaller than ours.
They don't really have anyone left (no more Talton, Barnes, Crittle) but Humes. They've averaged 10 wins the last four years. Their 6-year rolling RPI is 226!
IT'S AN INSIDE JOB PEOPLE. NOW IF WE COULD JUST PAWN MILWAUKEE OFF ON THEM TOO
I really would be surprised if VU goes to the MVC. Still think our facilities would be a stumbling block. My concern will always be the Horizon League keeping automatic bids open to all sports. UIC would be another loss for baseball. Still not crazy about the extra traveling that would be needed. Horizon League Commish had better start being PRO-ACTIVE. Perhaps a 12 team MVC would be ok if it was separated into divisions. Just now need to wait and see what is officially announced.
Just heard from a usually reliable source that PantherU is correct, UIC moving to the MVC is all but announced, perhaps waiting for the confirmation of additional teams (perhaps Valpo). A rumor on the Wright State board also says that Oakland, UMKC, and Denver might be headed to the HL. My source says Oakland is in the HL, but would only add that those other two teams are being considered seriously by the HL.
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 01:09:52 PM
Just heard from a usually reliable source that PantherU is correct, UIC moving to the MVC is all but announced, perhaps waiting for the confirmation of additional teams (perhaps Valpo). A rumor on the Wright State board also says that Oakland, UMKC, and Denver might be headed to the HL. My source says Oakland is in the HL, but would only add that those other two teams are being considered seriously by the HL.
I can live with Oakland, but if UMKC and Denver are inbound, I'd jump at a chance to join the Valley.
If the Valley is courting UIC and NOT Valpo, though, that's sketch.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 12:42:09 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 04, 2013, 12:13:21 PM
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/319842954837647360
If this is true wouldn't be surprised to see Loyola, UIC, and Valpo to go then. Make the conference up to 12 and get the Chicago market involved.
I would be happy with that and I believe so would the Valpo athletics folks.
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 01:09:52 PM
Just heard from a usually reliable source that PantherU is correct, UIC moving to the MVC is all but announced, perhaps waiting for the confirmation of additional teams (perhaps Valpo). A rumor on the Wright State board also says that Oakland, UMKC, and Denver might be headed to the HL. My source says Oakland is in the HL, but would only add that those other two teams are being considered seriously by the HL.
All but announced? The AD doesn't make the decision to switch athletic conferences, not even the president does. Only the governing board of the university would have that authority. I suppose the MVC could be on the verge of announcing that they are going to invite them, but even then I doubt that would be an overnight decision. It sounds to me like low level people in the athletic dept talking to low level buds outside the dept. That said, frankly I don't care whether they stay or go.
Quote from: milldew72 on April 04, 2013, 01:50:58 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 01:09:52 PM
Just heard from a usually reliable source that PantherU is correct, UIC moving to the MVC is all but announced, perhaps waiting for the confirmation of additional teams (perhaps Valpo). A rumor on the Wright State board also says that Oakland, UMKC, and Denver might be headed to the HL. My source says Oakland is in the HL, but would only add that those other two teams are being considered seriously by the HL.
I can live with Oakland, but if UMKC and Denver are inbound, I'd jump at a chance to join the Valley.
If the Valley is courting UIC and NOT Valpo, though, that's sketch.
Denver is a very high class private university with great resources and recent basketball success. Not sure they would be a fit geographically but I wouldbe happy otherwise to have them in the HL.
Quote from: RS on April 04, 2013, 01:00:31 PM
I really would be surprised if VU goes to the MVC. Still think our facilities would be a stumbling block. My concern will always be the Horizon League keeping automatic bids open to all sports. UIC would be another loss for baseball. Still not crazy about the extra traveling that would be needed. Horizon League Commish had better start being PRO-ACTIVE. Perhaps a 12 team MVC would be ok if it was separated into divisions. Just now need to wait and see what is officially announced.
Candidly, I would be surprised as well. Facilities are Valpo's Achilles heel, IMO. But I think a move to 12 by the MVC helps VU tremendously. That not withstanding, if we take everything that has been said as true, let's look at things, particularly the number 11.
--UIC to MVC. MVC at 10. HL at 8.
--OU to HL. MVC at 10. HL at 9, except UMKC and Denver are being mentioned as strong possibilities as well.
Why the need to get to 11 right now by the HL? This would be inconsistent with earlier reports indicating an outright move to 12. And a three school move now when it was mentioned at the tournament that the HL would expand in two years? If the conference has to expand, you would think that the HL would either expand to 9 to remain at status quo or move to 10, but not 11. Right?
IMO, either the HL is moving to 11 because the MVC is moving to 12, or the HL is moving to 11 because the MVC is staying at 10 and someone else is leaving the HL. I could be way off as this is just fun conference reshuffling speculation. It will be very interesting to see what happens.
UIC to the MVC all but a done deal?
April Fools?
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 02:36:19 PM
UIC to the MVC all but a done deal?
April Fools?
I think we all know that UIC would not be the one and only addition to the MVC. Picture their commissioner rolling that out for the university presidents. "Well gentlemen, after a long exhaustive search, we have finally come up with the perfect replacement for our recently departed top athletic program, Creighton University. I give you UIC." That might be the shortest meeting in the history of athletic conferences.
From Post Tribune's Mike Hutton on Twitter: "Buy in for Vaparaiso University for MVC is $1 mill. Buy-out from Horizon League is $1 mil. Could be hangup to leaving for MVC."
Quote from: jetz on April 04, 2013, 02:15:49 PMBreaking news today, reports are out that UIC will leave for the Missouri Valley Conference. Other reports say that Oakland is coming in to the HL, but no time frame yet. The bad news is that UMKC and Denver are also looking at the HL. Neither of those schools has baseball, and if these are the only moves made, baseball will still be one short of the needed six teams for the automatic NCAA qualifier... We obviously need a series win this weekend, and there's lots of other things happening too. The 2012 HL Championship/NCAA Regional sign will be unveiled at EGB. More importantly, the Valpo baseball concession stand with grilled cheeseburgers, brats, and hot dogs will make its Grand Opening. Concessions will be permanent for all weekend series going forward.
I hope these are rumors. In there somewhere you have to wonder if Valpo turned down the MVC or the MVC saw UIC as having greater potential.
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 02:52:16 PM
From Post Tribune's Mike Hutton on Twitter: "Buy in for Vaparaiso University for MVC is $1 mill. Buy-out from Horizon League is $1 mil. Could be hangup to leaving for MVC."
That is A LOT of money!
I doubt if it would deter UIC. They can do it on the backs of IL taxpayers, directly or indirectly.
I honestly don't understand the facilities argument. What does it matter to the MVC if UIC has better facilities than Valpo? We've done consistently better than UIC with what we've got, and our recruiting has been fine vs the rest of the Horizon. You can play in Taj Mahal, but if your program sucks, you're not going to move up anywhere. UIC's athletic budget is the highest in the HL. Isn't it clear that they are incompetent if they can barely even compete in the revenue sport against their conference members? It's not the fact they haven't made the tourney in 10 years, it's that they haven't broken the top 100 RPI. They have a general lack of support in the US's third biggest city, and are behind two other Chicago programs that are also terrible. I mean, their basketball wikipedia page hasn't even been updated in 2 years.
This isn't to say Valpo shouldn't update the ARC (or at least add a track), but come on, 'potential' never ends up working out if you're picking a team for its city, not its success.
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 03:00:24 PMI honestly don't understand the facilities argument. What does it matter to the MVC if UIC has better facilities than Valpo?
Agree with you a 100% on that one. Valpo has multiple athletic programs that are excelling currently: basketball, soccer, baseball, softball, etc... UIC doesn't have much going for it except the Chicago part and the nice facilities. So if UIC got asked to join the MVC, with their terrible athletics, I don't see how Valpo cannot get asked to join as well. We have proven that we can win in multiple sports and if we do improve some facilities just imagine how much better the programs at Valpo can be.
How does conference membership work? What are the contractual obligations? Once you agree to be in a conference, are you bound to that conference in perpetuity? I wonder too if the school obligations and the conference obligations change if there is a substantal change in the school or the conference. For example, is the school bound to a conference if the conference changes 20% to 30% of its membership (including the member that is arguabily its most valuable) within a 12 month period? In that case, is the conference living up contractual expectations expected by the conference's members? Conversely, what if a school decides that it no longer wishes to compete in Division 1 athletics. In that particular situation, would the school be required to pay an exit fee because it is not living up to the contractual expectations of the conference (changing their competitive level of play)?
The the reported fact that Valparaiso must pay an exit fee to a conference that is substantially changed from what Valparaiso initially committed to does not set well with me. That is what brought me to the questions I ask above. While I know little about the legal subject, I think that Valparaiso can make a pretty good legal argument that since the conference has had (or may end up going through) such major changes, the end "product" put out by the Horizon has substantially changed from the original Horizon "product" that Valparaiso signed to when it entered the conference.
Doctor evil- One Million Dollars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DJtHL3NV1o#)
I have the impression that different leagues have increased their exit fees over the past year or so as a result of all the conference jumping. I wonder whether the HL may have been among them in the aftermath of Butler leaving? If so, the VU administration would have played a part in establishing the current exit fee, whatever it may be. Personally, I would be surprised if it's that high. Also, might the MVC waive part of the entry fee, in exchange for Valpo not receiving a future share of conf. NCAA tournament credits already earned?
Quote from: wh on April 04, 2013, 03:55:36 PM
I have the impression that different leagues have increased their exit fees over the past year or so as a result of all the conference jumping. I wonder whether the HL may have been among them in the aftermath of Butler leaving? If so, the VU administration would have played a part in establishing the current exit fee, whatever it may be. Personally, I would be surprised if it's that high. Also, might the MVC waive part of the entry fee, in exchange for Valpo not receiving a future share of conf. NCAA tournament credits already earned?
When Butler left the HL the exit fee was $500k, so yes, they have upped that since then, much like the CAA upped their's after VCU, ODU and Georgia Southern all took off. The funny thing is that while the entry fee into the MVC is $1 million, the exit fee for Creighton was something ridiculously small, something like $100k or less.
I would have to think that the entry fee would be reduced if they truly want a school to join, especially since they won't be sharing in any of the initial NCAA credits.
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 03:00:24 PMI mean, their basketball wikipedia page hasn't even been updated in 2 years.
Then again, what have they done that merits updating it?
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 03:05:02 PMSo if UIC got asked to join the MVC, with their terrible athletics, I don't see how Valpo cannot get asked to join as well.
...um...maybe because they simply aren't looking at how good-looking the girl is, but rather at how nice her father's house is? Been known to happen...
Quote from: wh on April 04, 2013, 02:50:00 PM"Well gentlemen, after a long exhaustive search, we have finally come up with the perfect replacement for our recently departed top athletic program, Creighton University. I give you UIC."
"Think of them as the IUPUI of Illinois!"
QuoteDoctor Evil- One Million Dollars
+10 for that one, 'dozer.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 03:05:02 PM
UIC doesn't have much going for it except the Chicago part ...
Ah, yes. WHERE her father's house is located too is important :)
I agree. The thought of just UIC to replace Creighton doesn't seem a good sell to the MVC. However, if the MVC could get UIC, Loyola, and Valpo as a package deal to replace Creighton, that would seem reasonable. The Chicago market is added, which would mean much more revenue for the league; there is a mix of public and private schools; the rivalries are kept intact; the concern about travel is lessened; the new UIC baseball stadium and Loyola's renovated basketball site are a plus; Valpo's stature as a basketball program strengthens the additions of UIC and Loyola, plus the MVC gets to share in the annual celebration of "The Shot," etc.
Valpo would compete in a higher league and would be able to continue recruiting Chicago and other Illinois players. Valpo could also use this as an exciting campaign drive with alums to upgrade the athletic facilities, which they would be obligated to do by the MVC as well. Bryce gets to coach in a higher level and might feel more obligated to stay. In addition, the current Valpo players would be very happy, especially all the Chicago kids and Alec Peters, who would get to play in his home town of Peoria.
I'm beginning to think it makes too much sense to pass up for anyone, but what do I know?
Quote from: wh on April 04, 2013, 02:50:00 PM
I think we all know that UIC would not be the one and only addition to the MVC. Picture their commissioner rolling that out for the university presidents. "Well gentlemen, after a long exhaustive search, we have finally come up with the perfect replacement for our recently departed top athletic program, Creighton University. I give you UIC." That might be the shortest meeting in the history of athletic conferences.
@CliffSmart Site visits to prospective valley schools went well. Despite reports on twitter, no decision made on new member. Still couple weeks off.
@PantherU I would look to UIC. Either they're feeding misinformation to several people or they really believe MVC is all but done
Panther U blaming UIC for stuff he reported
Not a surprise at all. There is no way that they offered membership so soon after just visiting everyone. They would not have convened a school President's meeting in such short time, when they don't have to rush this decision.
Blue Horseshoe loves Anacott Steel.
According to Fox 11 Sports, apparent Horizon League official position at this time:
"Reports have linked Illinois-Chicago to the Missouri Valley Conference, along with Loyola and Valparaiso. Commissioner LeCrone also addressed with Fox 11 the possibility that teams could be poached by other leagues. "Right now as far as I know none of the schools in the Horizon League have been offered invitations to other conferences so I do know that as a fact. With the recent changes and in this environment there is a lot of conversations going on and there has been some interest expressed by the Missouri Valley in 3 of our teams. So we're in touch with those schools and we're in touch with those Presidents. I'm in touch with the Missouri Valley Conference commissioner and we just have to be alert to the fact that we're living in changing times and again the important thing is to be appropriately responsive."
http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/sports/college/oakland-comments-on-horizon-league (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/sports/college/oakland-comments-on-horizon-league)
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 03:00:24 PMI honestly don't understand the facilities argument. What does it matter to the MVC if UIC has better facilities than Valpo? We've done consistently better than UIC with what we've got, and our recruiting has been fine vs the rest of the Horizon. You can play in Taj Mahal, but if your program sucks, you're not going to move up anywhere. UIC's athletic budget is the highest in the HL. Isn't it clear that they are incompetent if they can barely even compete in the revenue sport against their conference members? It's not the fact they haven't made the tourney in 10 years, it's that they haven't broken the top 100 RPI. They have a general lack of support in the US's third biggest city, and are behind two other Chicago programs that are also terrible. I mean, their basketball wikipedia page hasn't even been updated in 2 years. This isn't to say Valpo shouldn't update the ARC (or at least add a track), but come on, 'potential' never ends up working out if you're picking a team for its city, not its success.
I say expand the North End of the ARC, clean it up, add better concessions and restrooms and they will be fine.
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 05:37:15 PM
"Right now as far as I know none of the schools in the Horizon League have been offered invitations to other conferences so I do know that as a fact.
"As far as I know" does NOT equal "know that as fact".
Valpo fans, this is not over yet, not by a long shot. I still believe Valpo, UI-C and Loyola will all be asked to join the MVC. Stay tuned. It just makes sense.
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 05:08:29 PMHowever, if the MVC could get UIC, Loyola, and Valpo as a package deal to replace Creighton, that would seem reasonable. The Chicago market is added, which would mean much more revenue for the league; there is a mix of public and private schools; the rivalries are kept intact; the concern about travel is lessened; the new UIC baseball stadium and Loyola's renovated basketball site are a plus; Valpo's stature as a basketball program strengthens the additions of UIC and Loyola, plus the MVC gets to share in the annual celebration of "The Shot," etc.
Valpo would compete in a higher league and would be able to continue recruiting Chicago and other Illinois players. Valpo could also use this as an exciting campaign drive with alums to upgrade the athletic facilities, which they would be obligated to do by the MVC as well. Bryce gets to coach in a higher level and might feel more obligated to stay. In addition, the current Valpo players would be very happy, especially all the Chicago kids and Alec Peters, who would get to play in his home town of Peoria.
This is as good an assessment of the "what if" best case scenario as I've seen, except for the matter of possibly having to come up with $2 million, and the last sentence.
If playing in Peoria were REALLY that important to Alec, he had a couple scholarship options to play half his games there, didn't he? ;)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 04, 2013, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 05:08:29 PMHowever, if the MVC could get UIC, Loyola, and Valpo as a package deal to replace Creighton, that would seem reasonable. The Chicago market is added, which would mean much more revenue for the league; there is a mix of public and private schools; the rivalries are kept intact; the concern about travel is lessened; the new UIC baseball stadium and Loyola's renovated basketball site are a plus; Valpo's stature as a basketball program strengthens the additions of UIC and Loyola, plus the MVC gets to share in the annual celebration of "The Shot," etc.
Valpo would compete in a higher league and would be able to continue recruiting Chicago and other Illinois players. Valpo could also use this as an exciting campaign drive with alums to upgrade the athletic facilities, which they would be obligated to do by the MVC as well. Bryce gets to coach in a higher level and might feel more obligated to stay. In addition, the current Valpo players would be very happy, especially all the Chicago kids and Alec Peters, who would get to play in his home town of Peoria.
This is as good an assessment of the "what if" best case scenario as I've seen, except for the matter of possibly having to come up with $2 million, and the last sentence.
If playing in Peoria were REALLY that important to Alec, he had a couple scholarship options to play half his games there, didn't he? ;)
Better to have played in Peoria once than to never have played in Peoria at all. How do you think my saying will play in Peoria?
Do you think the Cats will like it at Caterpillar?
Or will they be hanging me from Murray Baker Bridge?
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 04, 2013, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 05:08:29 PMHowever, if the MVC could get UIC, Loyola, and Valpo as a package deal to replace Creighton, that would seem reasonable. The Chicago market is added, which would mean much more revenue for the league; there is a mix of public and private schools; the rivalries are kept intact; the concern about travel is lessened; the new UIC baseball stadium and Loyola's renovated basketball site are a plus; Valpo's stature as a basketball program strengthens the additions of UIC and Loyola, plus the MVC gets to share in the annual celebration of "The Shot," etc.
Valpo would compete in a higher league and would be able to continue recruiting Chicago and other Illinois players. Valpo could also use this as an exciting campaign drive with alums to upgrade the athletic facilities, which they would be obligated to do by the MVC as well. Bryce gets to coach in a higher level and might feel more obligated to stay. In addition, the current Valpo players would be very happy, especially all the Chicago kids and Alec Peters, who would get to play in his home town of Peoria.
This is as good an assessment of the "what if" best case scenario as I've seen, except for the matter of possibly having to come up with $2 million, and the last sentence.
If playing in Peoria were REALLY that important to Alec, he had a couple scholarship options to play half his games there, didn't he? ;)
Valpo knew the cost of buy-outs before hosting the MVC, and they went ahead anyway. Plus, I have to believe the fees are negotiable, especially if Valpo enters the MVC as a package deal with UIC and Loyola.
Alec wanted to play for Valpo; however, that doesn't eliminate the fact he'd love to do so in front of friends and family in Peoria.
Quote from: isu87 on April 04, 2013, 05:59:05 PMIt just makes sense.
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 05:08:29 PMI'm beginning to think it makes too much sense to pass up for anyone
Quote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 09:25:55 PMThus the move makes sense for Valpo
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/85262_a6teZ7jbP6A8toa.jpg)
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/8165_a6teZ7jbP6A8toa.jpg)
Wow, there is much going on with conference realignment. Some months ago I would have thought that if the HL were to get 3 really good schools that included other sports such as baseball, that the HL would be in solid shape. The MVC is very enticing. The fact that the MVC reacted quickly to losing Creighton, and announced visits to potential Universities, I think speaks well of the MVC leadership. The distances will be a change, especially since we'll be losing major metro markets such as Detroit, Cleveland, Milwaukee and Dayton for smaller markets and smaller numbers of alumni. If UIC and Loyola go with us, then we keep the biggest alumni and recruiting market of Chicago - which is a plus. I really like the potential rivalries of the MVC. If we can get the ARC to 85% capacity on average the first few years in the MVC, the ARC expansion and new track will come quicker in the MVC.
I voted Yes 3 because it kind of included (stretching it a bit) both Yes 1 and Yes 2. Although I almost voted for Yes 4!
From the wiki MVC page, we have our work cut out for Men's Basketball Attendance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference)
I can't believe that Creighton, with a student enrollment of just under 8,000 averaged nearly 18,000 per game! Only Drake at 4500 and N. Iowa at 4800 were less than 5000 in average attendance. Expanded ARC by 2017?
It's very interesting. My 2 questions will be answered almost immediately.
It sounds like UMKC and Denver were invited to the HL or at least are being looked at for possible membership in the HL.
Will Valpo fund the move to the MVC? The AD, president and BoD are hit squarely in the face with the question. Are they able to make a $2 million decision to help Valpo get to their goal of student enrollment at 6,000 through athletics or will they wilt and retreat and say "we don't want this."
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 05:37:15 PM
According to Fox 11 Sports, apparent Horizon League official position at this time:
"Reports have linked Illinois-Chicago to the Missouri Valley Conference, along with Loyola and Valparaiso. Commissioner LeCrone also addressed with Fox 11 the possibility that teams could be poached by other leagues. "Right now as far as I know none of the schools in the Horizon League have been offered invitations to other conferences so I do know that as a fact. With the recent changes and in this environment there is a lot of conversations going on and there has been some interest expressed by the Missouri Valley in 3 of our teams. So we're in touch with those schools and we're in touch with those Presidents. I'm in touch with the Missouri Valley Conference commissioner and we just have to be alert to the fact that we're living in changing times and again the important thing is to be appropriately responsive."
http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/sports/college/oakland-comments-on-horizon-league (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/sports/college/oakland-comments-on-horizon-league)
According to this sounds like there is a good chance that Valpo, Loyola, and UIC might all be jumping ship to the MVC, which isn't a bad move for us at all. Keeping two teams only an hour away while playing better competition all around is the best case scenario. Especially if Oakland is not joining the Horizon, just more motivation for these teams to leave. Still everything is a rumor and nothing is set in stone and nothing will surprise me at this point.
I want to clarify, as I did on Twitter, that I stand by my sources, as does Rob Demovsky on his.
I also want to clarify that I know nothing of Valpo's visit or if the MVC is going to 12. The only separate thing I heard was that Loyola's visit "went well."
My source says your source is wrong. And I'm now going to jump on every HL forum and post and tweet that I'm right. This is getting pretty ridiculous. Everyone has a source.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but wasn't LeCrone's interview last week per the article? If so it's not so up to date news.
Kudos again to ML for not sitting and waiting on the HL. I'm sure Valpo was well aware of exit and entry fees before the MVC came for a visit. "Thanks for having us and, Oh yeah, by the way there's this fee....."
1M (if true) is a lot of cash and will take longer than a week to evaluate. The idea of Valpo joining the MVC has had to been in discussion for some time. The entry fee has to be negotiable. MVC would end up with IUPUI if it wasn't.
@THefferman_SI
SIU Chancellor Rita Cheng, the ranking voting member for SIU for adding new schools, said no decision has been made to add new school.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 04, 2013, 07:50:47 PM
I want to clarify, as I did on Twitter, that I stand by my sources, as does Rob Demovsky on his.
I also want to clarify that I know nothing of Valpo's visit or if the MVC is going to 12. The only separate thing I heard was that Loyola's visit "went well."
I have no sources, so I'll just ask questions. The MVC has been at 10 teams for a while, so why would they suddenly wanted to expand to 12? The Big 10 want 12 (I know that sounds stupid) so they could have a conference football championship game, but for basketball, 10 teams seems like a good number. Allows a full round robin schedule of 18 games that works very well, IMO (this is why I'm hoping the new Big East stays at 10).
I understand why the MVC wants to replace Creighton quickly ... but expanding to 12 by adding teams with little or no NCAA tournament success in the last 25 years is just adding more mouths to feed from a fixed budget. It's the same reason the Horizon didn't go out and add Oakland, IPFW and IUPUI to replace Butler when they left.
I don't have a real opinion ... I'm just curious why people think the MVC would choose to go to 12 at this time.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 04, 2013, 07:50:47 PM
I want to clarify, as I did on Twitter, that I stand by my sources, as does Rob Demovsky on his.
I also want to clarify that I know nothing of Valpo's visit or if the MVC is going to 12. The only separate thing I heard was that Loyola's visit "went well."
I don't know a thing about you, apart from your posts here, and your pantheru site. I assume "dedicated fan, blogger."
In that context, I find it pretty hilarious that the Press Gazette, and then multiple media sources, ran with a story based on your tweets.
It'll be very interesting if the story turns out to be true - and hopefully an HL beat reporter in Demoskvy would have a couple of decent sources before running with the story. But, it'll be pretty funny if it all disappears in a puff of smoke.
I mean, I suppose it happens all the time. But, not usually this close to home!
The main reason I see the MVC wanting 12 is security in numbers. Since in the blink of an eye 2 or 3 teams can defect and leave for somewhere else, being at 9 or 10, like the Horizon, losing 3 teams at once would be disastrous. While having 12 and if 3 teams were to defect it would still hurt but wouldn't completely compromise the integrity of the league. While if the Horizon were to have 3 teams defect it would greatly compromise the integrity, they'd have to look to lower level leagues like the Summit to replace the teams, and then become a low-level mid-major program. While the MVC could possibly recuperate and might not be as strong but wouldn't be considered low-level if they started out with 12 and 2 or 3 left to make 9 or 10.
Quote from: valpotx on April 04, 2013, 04:09:59 PMespecially since they won't be sharing in any of the initial NCAA credits
I've not read the whole thread - has the MVC come out and said that? Or you're just assuming?
Presumably the MVC _could_ let a new team share in the existing credits.
On a related note, is the Horizon League's new formula public? I heard they revamped their old, egalitarian, formula after Butler's championship runs.
Finally, I'm surprised that the HL buy-out is as high as $1M. Heck, I'm surprised it was as high as $500k for Butler.
$2M is a significant chunk of change. I don't know that Valpo'd even be able to decide something like that quickly, unless maybe a donor came forward.
Having at least skimmed the thread, a link or two that I didn't see posted:
http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/sports/college/oakland-comments-on-horizon-league (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/sports/college/oakland-comments-on-horizon-league)
Detroit Fox affiliate (presumably) trying to quash the Oakland story and with some interesting quotes from LeCrone (albeit from last week) on HL expansion, and on MVC pirating.
And Paul Oren confirming the MVC was at Valpo yesterday
QuotePaul Oren @NWIOren 9h
Missouri Valley Conference representatives were on Valparaiso's campus on Wednesday.
A couple of other tidbits.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/wichita-state-gives-mvc-a-shot-in-the-arm/article_a644dcd6-2b34-55a0-8135-1193ab6db8c9.html (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/wichita-state-gives-mvc-a-shot-in-the-arm/article_a644dcd6-2b34-55a0-8135-1193ab6db8c9.html)
Apparently 7 of 9 MVC presidents have to approve any expansion.
And apparently Wichita State's coach is making $1.5M, that _before_ the final four (or beyond?) run. Seems like a lot.
The MVC's average basketball budget (2011-12) was only $2.4M. A bit higher than the Horizon's $2M, but well below the WCC ($2.8M) or A10 ($2.9M).
http://www.midmajority.com/redline (http://www.midmajority.com/redline)
I don't think we'll officially know anything about Valpo or anybody else going to the MVC for a bit. Everything is really hush hush and very confidential. I wouldn't be surprised to see Valpo wait after the baseball and softball seasons are over to announce publicly and to the Horizon if they are going to the MVC. Would hate to see the senior seasons end for 2 teams that have a legitimate chance of winning the Horizon tournament once again, without having an opportunity to win it all again.
Hmm...10 team upper-middle-major conference...loses its most prestigious member to promotion and is left with 9 and a host of questions.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it? -- except for the reaction by each conference; although that is still developing, certainly, we are left with two distinct approaches: the HL's Fabian strategy and the MVC's gung-ho approach.
My gut feeling is that the older, bigger, and more powerful a conference, the more careful they can afford to be, e.g. the B1G adding Nebraska after a long and careful process; whereas the less powerful tend to -- or need to -- grasp at all the straws they can, as in the case of the Conference Formerly Known As the Big East. Which was more pathetic than the dude who can't get a date to the prom no matter how many girls he asks. (I'm fairly certain they'll ask Chicago State to join soon. You know, that presence in the Chicago media market.)
Those are both BCS conferences (well, one still is), and though here we have the mid-majors, the MVC, generally regarded as better, is the one coming out proactive (or desperate, depending on your point of view) whereas the HL has been proceeding more carefully (or cluelessly, again depending on your point of view).
While it's certainly not as historically important as, say, Neville Chamberlain vs. Winston Churchill, it's about as clear cut, and we'll be able to see in a year, five, and ten, which was the way to go.
i admit, i'm intrigued by this whole thing. in its marquis sport, basketball, the valley is a step up from the horizon. one league has been a multibid league for several years, while the other has needed an upset in the final to stand a chance of it. and that was before butler left. let's be real - the league took a step back when butler left.
if we are seriously considering such a move (which i think could be a good one), i really think it needs to be paired up with long-term investments towards improvements of all facilities: baseball, softball, swimming, track/field, move soccer over to brown field permanently, basketball, volleyball.
Quote from: vuweathernerd on April 04, 2013, 10:24:52 PMits marquis sport, basketball
i thought the marquis sport was boxing
Rob Demovsky, a good sports reporter, informs that sources telling folks about UIC to MVC include the coaches: "UIC coaches are telling people it's a done deal."
One thing to consider for the point of the Valley being a multi-bid league: Of the 10 times since 1999 that the Valley has gotten two or more bids to the tournament, Creighton has gotten one of those multi-bids eight times. With Creighton, the Valley is clearly a stronger league than the HL. Without Creighton, I'm not sure it is quite so clear-cut.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 10:21:09 PM
I don't think we'll officially know anything about Valpo or anybody else going to the MVC for a bit. Everything is really hush hush and very confidential. I wouldn't be surprised to see Valpo wait after the baseball and softball seasons are over to announce publicly and to the Horizon if they are going to the MVC. Would hate to see the senior seasons end for 2 teams that have a legitimate chance of winning the Horizon tournament once again, without having an opportunity to win it all again.
I would be surprised if we didn't get some indications, if not a clear statement of some kind, by the end of this weekend since all the leagues and their coaches are meeting in Atlanta for the Final Four. It would be difficult to keep everyone silent in that environment full of so many reporters.
ValpoWikileaks is confirming that the MVC is adding Valparaiso University. Source is confirmed. Double confirmed. Ultra confirmed. To the max. If I'm wrong don't blame me, blame my source.
In all seriousness, facilities upgrades would be insisted upon by MVC officials.
HL 2+ bids: (bold denotes 3 or more)
1989 (Xavier, Evansville)
1990 (Xavier, Dayton)
1993 (Xavier, Evansville)
1995 (Xavier, Green Bay)
1996 (Northern Illinois, Green Bay)
1998 (Detroit, Butler, UIC)
2003 (Butler, Milwaukee)
2007 (Butler, Wright State)
2009 (Butler, Cleveland State)
All-time in the tournament: 31-41 (43.1%)
In the 32 years (since 1982): 42 bids (1.31 a year, or every 4 years an at-large bid)
In the last 20 years: 27 bids (1.35 a year, same)
In the last 10 years: 12 bids (1.2 a year, or every 5 years an at-large bid)
MVC 2+ bids (only going back as far as 1982 for comparison to HL's sake)
1984 (Illinois State, Tulsa)
1985 (Illinois State, Tulsa, Wichita State)
1986 (Tulsa, Bradley)
1987 (Tulsa, Wichita State)
1988 (Bradley, Wichita State)
1994 (Tulsa, Southern Illinois)
1996 (Tulsa, Bradley)
1999 (Creighton, Missouri State, Evansville)
2000 (Creighton, Indiana State)
2001 (Creighton, Indiana State)
2002 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2003 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2004 (Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois)
2005 (Creighton, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois)
2006 (Wichita State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, Bradley)
2007 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2012 (Wichita State, Creighton)
2013 (Wichita State, Creighton)
All-time in the tournament: 92-98 (48.4%) ...plus pending loss to Louisville ;)
In the last 32 years: 55 bids (1.72 a year, or about 2 at-large every 3, or 3 every 4 years)
In the last 20 years: 37 bids (1.85 a year, or an at-large about 8 out of 9 years)
In the last 10 years: 19 bids (1.9 a year, or, yeah, 9 years out of 10, but you figured that out)
That last number is especially impressive when you realize that they went 4 straight years without an at-large bid from 2008 through 2011. 4 straight years is now the HL's current streak for missing an at-large.
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 10:54:37 PM
ValpoWikileaks is confirming that the MVC is adding Valparaiso University. Source is confirmed. Double confirmed. Ultra confirmed. To the max. If I'm wrong don't blame me, blame my source.
Hope you're right but as we all know anybody who has access to valpowiki can post in it just like wiki. Throughout highschool and college they always said never trust wikipedia... so I'm gonna go with what I've been taught over my schooling history. And believe it when it comes from the mouths of a valpo official, mvc official, or newspaper source then I'll believe it.
Quote from: mgovalpo on April 04, 2013, 10:38:38 PM
One thing to consider for the point of the Valley being a multi-bid league: Of the 10 times since 1999 that the Valley has gotten two or more bids to the tournament, Creighton has gotten one of those multi-bids eight times. With Creighton, the Valley is clearly a stronger league than the HL. Without Creighton, I'm not sure it is quite so clear-cut.
The MVC is definitely stronger than the HL if you add UIC/Valpo/Loyola to the MVC, and Oakland/UMKC/Denver to the HL. Again, I am really hoping that our board sees the light at the end of the tunnel in regards to future student enrollment. Playing in the MVC will keep our school in the news more than the HL, and will also be more likely to keep around the solid coaches we have in our top sports (Men's basketball, baseball, volleyball, soccer, etc). The only concern I would have is that men's S&D is not sponsored by the MVC, so we would have to drop it as a sport, or put them as an associate member in another conference. Since our S&D teams have always been terrible, that shouldn't factor into any decision, as the Summit and MAC appear to have associate members in S&D without any issues.
Plus, we NEED to move to the MVC so I can watch Valpo baseball play several miles away from me at Dallas Baptist (added for baseball next season)!!!! :)
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2013, 10:39:35 PM
I would be surprised if we didn't get some indications, if not a clear statement of some kind, by the end of this weekend since all the leagues and their coaches are meeting in Atlanta for the Final Four. It would be difficult to keep everyone silent in that environment full of so many reporters.
Demovsky seems pretty intent on spilling the beans, if noone else does. But, I'm not sure he's in Atlanta?
Quote from: valpotx on April 04, 2013, 11:03:36 PMAgain, I am really hoping that our board sees the light at the end of the tunnel in regards to future student enrollment.
A Final Four run would be good for student enrollment. But MVC vs. Horizon League? It's not a slam dunk for me. There's an argument to be made, for sure. But the impact's not black and white, even for me, a fan. There's a fairly plausible story (albeit with pros and cons) that you could construct about the future of men's basketball. Which plays an important role at VU, for sure (though how important to the president and board?). But selling it as an important part of the path to 6,000 students? I'm not so sure.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 11:03:09 PMHope you're right but as we all know anybody who has access to valpowiki can post in it just like wiki.
Pretty sure he was just being sarcastic/funny.
Wikipedia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFBDn5PiL00#)
And tex, saying the MVC is definitely stronger when adding UIC/Loyola/VU...is like saying your cheerleading team got more attractive when adding the Kardashian sisters. I mean, we're clearly Kim, but ye gods, after that... (shuddering inconsolably)
The more times we get to the various NCAA tourneys, the better. Each time we are on TV, the better. Both of these issues are addressed in the MVC receiving multiple bids in MULTIPLE sports over the last decade. Though we would really have to step up in some of these other sports (MVC baseball has some very strong teams), we can do so, as we have over the last 20 years regardless of league.
Yes, Butler's massive increase in applicants was due to back-to-back championship games, but keeping in front of the eyes of wide-eyed teenagers by being on TV, is huge for student enrollment. All of this publicity Valpo generated this year by getting back to the tourney needs to keep going by making the jump while we can, instead of being the one abandoned like we were in the Mid-Con. As great as it was to make the tourney just about every year, we were still not given much respect in the public eye in those following years. Winning in the MVC, that would gain us the respect we very much crave. We do not want to be in a league with the likes of UMKC, IUPUI, IPFW. The latter two would happen if YSU or Detroit leave in the coming years as well...
Of course the MVC would be stronger with just us, not all 3. It was my intent to say that moving to a league with the two Chicago schools, is better than staying in one where you lose that connection, and then add only Oakland/UMKC/Denver.
I don't think it compromises the MVC that much if it adds Loyola and UIC because of the nice facilities. Even though I don't think it's a good idea, because time and time again if you add a team based on what you think they can achieve typically doesn't work out. While the MVC knows that Valpo has the ability to achieve. Back to my original point having Loyola and UIC would hurt the MVC too much because they will still have WSI, IL St, IN St, Bradley, IN St, etc... All adding UIC and Loyola will be doing is adding some W's to the schedule and honestly I like seeing those W's and we will still be playing the upper-level competitions so we need as many as those W's as we can get.
Quote from: valpotx on April 04, 2013, 11:19:14 PMEach time we are on TV, the better. Both of these issues are addressed in the MVC
Is there TV deal really any better? Maybe, as was pointed out, it's not fair to compare to the Horizon's _current_ (Butler influenced) deal.
But, it sounds like we're trading a bunch of ESPN appearances (OK, a lot of them just ESPN3 or ESPNU) and the beauty that is HLN for a couple of ESPN appearances, a shot at a CBS appearance and a bunch of regional cable games.
The Horizon doesn't look so bad there. (OK, maybe the comparison doesn't look as good if the ESPN waters us down post-Butler.)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 04, 2013, 11:15:17 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 11:03:09 PMHope you're right but as we all know anybody who has access to valpowiki can post in it just like wiki.
Pretty sure he was just being sarcastic/funny.
And tex, saying the MVC is definitely stronger when adding UIC/Loyola/VU...is like saying your cheerleading team got more attractive when adding the Kardashian sisters. I mean, we're clearly Kim, but ye gods, after that... (shuddering inconsolably)
Am I the only one who thinks Kourtney is the hot one?
Just askin':
If the cash outlay is in the $2 million ballpark for HL exit fees and MVC entrance fees. And if Valpo can write those checks today and transition it's athletic program to the MVC with its increase operational costs over night. How come we couldn't build the freakin track for the last umpteen years?
Like I said: Just askin' ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 04, 2013, 10:26:50 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on April 04, 2013, 10:24:52 PMits marquis sport, basketball
i thought the marquis sport was boxing
marquis de sol? marquis de sade? marquis de lafayette? marquis da bulls(via pike hs & KY)? marquis marc? marquis barnes(ORU)?
Quote from: covufan on April 04, 2013, 07:07:09 PMAgree with you a 100% on that one. Val
A couple of issues:
1. Chicago exposure is not a true positive. In Chicago, few people care about UIC and Loyola basketball. They get very little coverage from the media. The media pay more (but not much) attention to Northwestern and DePaul. One other fact is that in general, Chicago is a terrible college basketball town, and it will take several years for a turnaround to happen, if it does happen.
2. For Valpo to join the MVC, they need to upgrade their facilities.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 10:21:09 PMI don't think we'll officially know anything about Valpo or anybody else going to the MVC for a bit. Everything is really hush hush and very confidential. I wouldn't be surprised to see Valpo wait after the baseball and softball seasons are over to announce publicly and to the Horizon if they are going to the MVC. Would hate to see the senior seasons end for 2 teams that have a legitimate chance of winning the Horizon tournament once again, without having an opportunity to win it all again.
?? The process of joining another conference could take awhile. I think the baseball and softball teams will finsih out their seasons in the Horizon this year.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 05, 2013, 05:56:01 AM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 10:21:09 PMI don't think we'll officially know anything about Valpo or anybody else going to the MVC for a bit. Everything is really hush hush and very confidential. I wouldn't be surprised to see Valpo wait after the baseball and softball seasons are over to announce publicly and to the Horizon if they are going to the MVC. Would hate to see the senior seasons end for 2 teams that have a legitimate chance of winning the Horizon tournament once again, without having an opportunity to win it all again.
?? The process of joining another conference could take awhile. I think the baseball and softball teams will finsih out their seasons in the Horizon this year.
Not in this day and age of 2012 & 2013. Butler moved from the Horizon League to the A-10 in the summer of 2012. Butler will move from the A-10 to the Big East (not the American Athletic Conf, the AAC, not the ACC, which is the new name of the Old Big East, got it?) over this summer of 2013.
If ML tells the Horizon League that Valpo is moving to the MVC for the 2013-14 year they could make the Valpo baseball and softball teams ineligible for the HL championships. The HL was going to do this to Butler for 2012-13 and is the reason Butler left for the A-10 in 2012 instead of 2013. The way to do this now is to announce the move and complete the move all in one summer.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 05, 2013, 01:18:04 AMAm I the only one who thinks Kourtney is the hot one?
Yes.
Quote from: bbtds on April 05, 2013, 05:35:24 AMmarquis de sol? marquis de sade? marquis de lafayette? marquis da bulls(via pike hs & KY)? marquis marc? marquis barnes(ORU)?
I was thinking the Marquis de Queensberry, although marquess is the English spelling (marquis the French). A couple people keep writing "marquis" when they mean "marquee", kind of like how some people have glandular issues that cause them to lie prostate ;) (Nice job on the last one, bro!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules)
Quote from: bbtds on April 05, 2013, 06:29:30 AM
The way to do this now is to announce the move and complete the move all in one summer.
One motion, right off! (Seinfeld)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 05, 2013, 08:32:13 AM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 05, 2013, 01:18:04 AMAm I the only one who thinks Kourtney is the hot one?
Yes.
Quote from: bbtds on April 05, 2013, 05:35:24 AMmarquis de sol? marquis de sade? marquis de lafayette? marquis da bulls(via pike hs & KY)? marquis marc? marquis barnes(ORU)?
I was thinking the Marquis de Queensberry, although marquess is the English spelling (marquis the French). A couple people keep writing "marquis" when they mean "marquee", kind of like how some people have glandular issues that cause them to lie prostate ;) (Nice job on the last one, bro!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules)
Quote from: bbtds on April 05, 2013, 06:29:30 AM
The way to do this now is to announce the move and complete the move all in one summer.
One motion, right off! (Seinfeld)
yeah, definitely jacked that up, and apparently managed to slightly hijack the thread. my apologies. :-[
dude, you weren't even the first, so no sweats! life is good.
Now when people start "honing in" on things, THAT'S when I get unhinged :)
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 04, 2013, 09:34:50 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 04, 2013, 07:50:47 PM
I want to clarify, as I did on Twitter, that I stand by my sources, as does Rob Demovsky on his.
I also want to clarify that I know nothing of Valpo's visit or if the MVC is going to 12. The only separate thing I heard was that Loyola's visit "went well."
I have no sources, so I'll just ask questions. The MVC has been at 10 teams for a while, so why would they suddenly wanted to expand to 12? The Big 10 want 12 (I know that sounds stupid) so they could have a conference football championship game, but for basketball, 10 teams seems like a good number. Allows a full round robin schedule of 18 games that works very well, IMO (this is why I'm hoping the new Big East stays at 10).
I understand why the MVC wants to replace Creighton quickly ... but expanding to 12 by adding teams with little or no NCAA tournament success in the last 25 years is just adding more mouths to feed from a fixed budget. It's the same reason the Horizon didn't go out and add Oakland, IPFW and IUPUI to replace Butler when they left.
I don't have a real opinion ... I'm just curious why people think the MVC would choose to go to 12 at this time.
Quote from: mgovalpo on April 04, 2013, 10:38:38 PM
One thing to consider for the point of the Valley being a multi-bid league: Of the 10 times since 1999 that the Valley has gotten two or more bids to the tournament, Creighton has gotten one of those multi-bids eight times. With Creighton, the Valley is clearly a stronger league than the HL. Without Creighton, I'm not sure it is quite so clear-cut.
Um, I guess Creighton is in the Final 4? Hmm...while Horizon League champ was getting doubled up by halftime in the first round, Wichita State is trying to win a national title. Take Butler out of the HL equation, and the results aren't so pretty.
Quote from: bbtds on April 05, 2013, 06:29:30 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 05, 2013, 05:56:01 AM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 10:21:09 PMI don't think we'll officially know anything about Valpo or anybody else going to the MVC for a bit. Everything is really hush hush and very confidential. I wouldn't be surprised to see Valpo wait after the baseball and softball seasons are over to announce publicly and to the Horizon if they are going to the MVC. Would hate to see the senior seasons end for 2 teams that have a legitimate chance of winning the Horizon tournament once again, without having an opportunity to win it all again.
?? The process of joining another conference could take awhile. I think the baseball and softball teams will finsih out their seasons in the Horizon this year.
Not in this day and age of 2012 & 2013. Butler moved from the Horizon League to the A-10 in the summer of 2012. Butler will move from the A-10 to the Big East (not the American Athletic Conf, the AAC, not the ACC, which is the new name of the Old Big East, got it?) over this summer of 2013.
If ML tells the Horizon League that Valpo is moving to the MVC for the 2013-14 year they could make the Valpo baseball and softball teams ineligible for the HL championships. The HL was going to do this to Butler for 2012-13 and is the reason Butler left for the A-10 in 2012 instead of 2013. The way to do this now is to announce the move and complete the move all in one summer.
I understand where you are coming from but I'm not sure I agree with you from a professional standpoint. IMO, VU should give notice if they leave the HL. Athletic schedules have to be created well in advance of the summer. A notification that late will leave conference members who are left behind potentially scrambling, particularly if the move is for next season. If the MVC adds a team or teams for the 2013 year, I would imagine notification would have to be made public well before the summer given the intricacies with scheduling. Yes, you do run the risk of losing out on baseball or softball championships, but you are also acting ethically and in a favorable light to both your current and new conference.
I don't recall seeing any situation when a school announced their intention to change leagues in the middle of the school year, and their conference declared them immediately ineligible for titles in ongoing sports.
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 04, 2013, 09:34:50 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 04, 2013, 07:50:47 PM
I want to clarify, as I did on Twitter, that I stand by my sources, as does Rob Demovsky on his.
I also want to clarify that I know nothing of Valpo's visit or if the MVC is going to 12. The only separate thing I heard was that Loyola's visit "went well."
I have no sources, so I'll just ask questions. The MVC has been at 10 teams for a while, so why would they suddenly wanted to expand to 12? The Big 10 want 12 (I know that sounds stupid) so they could have a conference football championship game, but for basketball, 10 teams seems like a good number. Allows a full round robin schedule of 18 games that works very well, IMO (this is why I'm hoping the new Big East stays at 10).
I understand why the MVC wants to replace Creighton quickly ... but expanding to 12 by adding teams with little or no NCAA tournament success in the last 25 years is just adding more mouths to feed from a fixed budget. It's the same reason the Horizon didn't go out and add Oakland, IPFW and IUPUI to replace Butler when they left.
I don't have a real opinion ... I'm just curious why people think the MVC would choose to go to 12 at this time.
1. ...because people find it impossible to believe that if the MVC was only going to add 1 team to replace its marquee program, it would be UIC
2. ...because LeCrone publically stated the the MVC is interested in 3 programs from the HL
As to your point about "more mouths to feed" with a 12-team league instead of 10, you are absolutely right. Without Creighton the MVC is strictly a 1-bid league - with the 9 teams they have. Valpo has NEVER had an at-large resume in its entire D-1 history - EVER. If we were the one and only program the MVC was considering to replace Creighton (and we're not), our presence in the MVC would do nothing to suddenly make it a 2-bid league. THEN---add bottom feeding Loyola and UIC to the mix to pull down everyone's RPI further, and they will bury the MVC's chance to become a 2-bid league. That's the reality whether anyone wants to accept it or not.
The bottom line is Valpo will be going from a league with a 1 in 9 chance to to the NCAA tournament to a league with a 1 in 12 chance. The only reason to pull the trigger IMO is that it appears that the HL could become so watered down with the Fort Wayne's and IUPUI's of the low major world that the HL could become a low level joke, or even worse it could fall apart and leave us scrambling. That may be enough of a reason in itself, but other than that being a part of a watered down, 1-bid, 12-team MVC is nothing to get excited about.
Quote from: vusupporter on April 05, 2013, 11:51:41 AM
I don't recall seeing any situation when a school announced their intention to change leagues in the middle of the school year, and their conference declared them immediately ineligible for titles in ongoing sports.
It happened two weeks ago. http://www.caasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&ATCLID=206916860 (http://www.caasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&ATCLID=206916860)
Quote from: wh on April 05, 2013, 12:10:32 PMTHEN---add bottom feeding Loyola and UIC to the mix to pull down everyone's RPI further, and they will bury the MVC's chance to become a 2-bid league. That's the reality whether anyone wants to accept it or not.
I can still see the MVC being a two bid league in the future. Yes, chances are accepting UIC, and possibly Loyola could hurt the chances somewhat but I still think that they have enough good programs that will still play each other twice a season that the 4 games against Loyola and UIC will be averaged out. Games against No IA, WSU, IN St, IL St, etc... will still look good on any schedule.
I also think the chances of a two bid league is much more likely out of the MVC, the Horizon just doesn't look the same without Butler and the only times the Horizon was a 2 bid league was when Butler got the at-large bid because they lost in the conference tournament. Losing Creighton does hurt the MVC but it doesn't hurt them as much as when Butler left the Horizon. The Horizon only had two upper-level mid-major programs this season in Valpo and Detroit. While the MVC still has WSU, IN St, IL St, and No IA. I still see the MVC consistently having two-plus bids in the future, maybe not every season like with Creighton but they will still be an elite mid-major conference. Also, I don't see accepting UIC and Loyola (possibly) hurting those chances too much. While the Horizon is a perennial one bid league unless one team greatly improves, to a Butlerlike level, over the next few seasons.
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 05, 2013, 12:19:32 PMIt happened two weeks ago. http://www.caasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&ATCLID=206916860 (http://www.caasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&ATCLID=206916860)
With a $1M exit fee there, as well.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 05, 2013, 12:23:18 PMI also think the chances of a two bid league is much more likely out of the MVC, the Horizon just doesn't look the same without Butler and the only times the Horizon was a 2 bid league was when Butler got the at-large bid because they lost in the conference tournament.
Since 99, anyway. Detroit, UIC, and Green Bay have all had at-large bids before. All in 1995-98 in fact. And Milwaukee's gotten at-large quality seeds even more recently. Only to mention current members of the Horizon League.
And, as for the Valley, we don't have to look back so far.
Quote from: wh on April 05, 2013, 12:10:32 PMWithout Creighton the MVC is strictly a 1-bid league - with the 9 teams they have.
Would this year's Wichita State team have fallen out of at-large contention without Creighton in the mix? I think it's not so clear as that...
Or would Wichita State, which got an at-large 5 seed last year, really have been left out?
You want multiple at-large caliber teams? Northern Iowa in 2010. Drake in 2008. SIU in 2007. 4 bids in 2006, including a 7 and a 10, none of them to Creighton.
Basically, it seems to me that both leagues have been multi-bid before. Even in down years for Butler and Creighton. There are multiple programs in both leagues that have been capable of getting at-large consideration. We do, admittedly, have to go back a bit further in time for the Horizon Legaue to convincingly demonstrate that.
Quote from: wh on April 05, 2013, 12:10:32 PM
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 04, 2013, 09:34:50 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 04, 2013, 07:50:47 PM
I want to clarify, as I did on Twitter, that I stand by my sources, as does Rob Demovsky on his.
I also want to clarify that I know nothing of Valpo's visit or if the MVC is going to 12. The only separate thing I heard was that Loyola's visit "went well."
I have no sources, so I'll just ask questions. The MVC has been at 10 teams for a while, so why would they suddenly wanted to expand to 12? The Big 10 want 12 (I know that sounds stupid) so they could have a conference football championship game, but for basketball, 10 teams seems like a good number. Allows a full round robin schedule of 18 games that works very well, IMO (this is why I'm hoping the new Big East stays at 10).
I understand why the MVC wants to replace Creighton quickly ... but expanding to 12 by adding teams with little or no NCAA tournament success in the last 25 years is just adding more mouths to feed from a fixed budget. It's the same reason the Horizon didn't go out and add Oakland, IPFW and IUPUI to replace Butler when they left.
I don't have a real opinion ... I'm just curious why people think the MVC would choose to go to 12 at this time.
1. ...because people find it impossible to believe that if the MVC was only going to add 1 team to replace its marquee program, it would be UIC
2. ...because LeCrone publically stated the the MVC is interested in 3 programs from the HL
As to your point about "more mouths to feed" with a 12-team league instead of 10, you are absolutely right. Without Creighton the MVC is strictly a 1-bid league - with the 9 teams they have. Valpo has NEVER had an at-large resume in its entire D-1 history - EVER. If we were the one and only program the MVC was considering to replace Creighton (and we're not), our presence in the MVC would do nothing to suddenly make it a 2-bid league. THEN---add bottom feeding Loyola and UIC to the mix to pull down everyone's RPI further, and they will bury the MVC's chance to become a 2-bid league. That's the reality whether anyone wants to accept it or not.
The bottom line is Valpo will be going from a league with a 1 in 9 chance to to the NCAA tournament to a league with a 1 in 12 chance. The only reason to pull the trigger IMO is that it appears that the HL could become so watered down with the Fort Wayne's and IUPUI's of the low major world that the HL could become a low level joke, or even worse it could fall apart and leave us scrambling. That may be enough of a reason in itself, but other than that being a part of a watered down, 1-bid, 12-team MVC is nothing to get excited about.
Not sure I agree he is absolutely right with respect to more mouths to feed. IMO, we don't know whether a 12 team MVC in and of itself will dilute annual payouts per team per year. Hypothetically, the Chicago market may provide the conference with an increased media presence resulting in additional dollars to the conference without tournament appearances from any Chicagoland schools. Just the expansion of the market might provide net worth, meaning, in other words, if a network wants "it", the conference still has the potential to make money if it moves to 12--whether or not any of the three schools are actually media relevant in that respective market. I know it's apples and oranges, but there is a reason why the Big Ten accepted Maryland and Rutgers even though they haven't been exactly world-beaters on the football field. Rutgers gets them into the NYC market somewhat even though RU may not be exactly relevant there.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 05, 2013, 01:28:51 PMHypothetically, the Chicago market may provide the conference with an increased media presence resulting in additional dollars to the conference without tournament appearances from any Chicagoland schools. Just the expansion of the market might provide net worth, meaning, in other words, if a network wants "it", the conference still has the potential to make money if it moves to 12--whether or not any of the three schools are actually media relevant in that respective market.
Couldn't agree with you more on that fact. You literally have the whole Chicagoland covered pretty much, North (LU), West (UIC), and South (Valpo). And by having 3 teams there is that much more of a chance of a team doing well in a major city and bringing in major dollars. If any of the 3 teams raise their level of play while in the MVC, this will bring in a substantial portion of the MVC's revenue. I think out of those 3 teams, Valpo currently has the best chance of doing that but both UIC and Loyola are larger schools so they naturally will have more potential followers, and being in a better conference might bring many of those UIC and Loyola alumni out of the closet.
Quote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 07:31:07 PMOnly being 8 teams strong and Detroit your best team, not good for the Horizon.
Detroit has one more year of being good, then they go back to where they've been for 10-12 years.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 05, 2013, 08:32:13 AMQuote from: blackpantheruwm on April 05, 2013, 01:18:04 AMAm I the only one who thinks Kourtney is the hot one?
Yes. Quote from: bbtds on April 05, 2013, 05:35:24 AMmarquis de sol? marquis de sade? marquis de lafayette? marquis da bulls(via pike hs & KY)? marquis marc? marquis barnes(ORU)?
I was thinking the Marquis de Queensberry, although marquess is the English spelling (marquis the French). A couple people keep writing "marquis" when they mean "marquee", kind of like how some people have glandular issues that cause them to lie prostate ;) (Nice job on the last one, bro!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules) Quote from: bbtds on April 05, 2013, 06:29:30 AMThe way to do this now is to announce the move and complete the move all in one summer.
One motion, right off! (Seinfeld)
Yes, when I was a kid we would always check the marquis to see what movie was playing at the Premier Theater.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 05, 2013, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on March 31, 2013, 07:31:07 PMOnly being 8 teams strong and Detroit your best team, not good for the Horizon.
Detroit has one more year of being good, then they go back to where they've been for 10-12 years.
Don't count on it. They lose Anderson and Minnerath and most likely McCallum. The NBA draft is a bit weak this year and most likely stronger again the following year. Thus, it makes sense for the reigning HL POY to come out now versus waiting, with a possible down year or injury hanging over his head. With those guys gone Detroit will not be near the same.
Quote from: vu72 on April 05, 2013, 02:07:55 PMDon't count on it. They lose Anderson and Minnerath and most likely McCallum. The NBA draft is a bit weak this year and most likely stronger again the following year. Thus, it makes sense for the reigning HL POY to come out now versus waiting, with a possible down year or injury hanging over his head. With those guys gone Detroit will not be near the same.
Agree with you there. Detroit will be subpar next season. McCallum is probably leaving for the nba, don't blame him, why risk staying at Detroit or take the money the nba will give you. I think Daddy is terrible coach, who got lucky with a thug like Minnerath and sonny boy playing under his father and I don't think they have that great of a recruiting class, honestly what kid says, "man I really wanna go to school in Detroit."
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 05, 2013, 01:28:51 PMI know it's apples and oranges, but there is a reason why the Big Ten accepted Maryland and Rutgers even though they haven't been exactly world-beaters on the football field. Rutgers gets them into the NYC market somewhat even though RU may not be exactly relevant there.
Except that that doesn't matter, since that's how TV economics worked in the 90s (as in, not for much longer). I'll leave it to Will Leitch, since he's far better on the subject than I:
QuoteNot that many people are going through all the trouble to do this yet, but as cable fees keep going up, and more workarounds can be found (and we haven't even gotten into pirated feeds), more people will cut the cord. We live in an information-wants-to-be-free age, and we're still being held down by these media-company gatekeepers. In the real world it's 2012; in the cable universe, it might as well be 1988. Eventually, this will have to change. It's too insane and rigged-against-the-consumer for it not to. The problem, of course, is that, like so many capitalists before them, leagues and teams and sports networks are all assuming that it'll always be like this, that these revenue will keep growing forever and ever, that this golden goose will always keep laying eggs. There are decades upon decades of Darwinian consumer trends that contradict that. In 30 years, we may have all unplugged our cable bundles and be paying a la carte. This is the nightmare situation, but I'm not the first person to suggest we're living in a cable sports television bubble. Someday it'll pop. Then, suddenly, we'll look and think: Why in the world is Maryland in the Big Ten?
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/40627104 (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/40627104) (Sorry, 04 :))
I don't even think it will take 30 years. 10 tops. I cut the cord nine months ago and haven't looked back. And clearly I take sports seriously.
Check out this interesting (dated) Nate Silver (I know i know) article about fandom vs. market share in DI FB (i know) that points out it doesn't matter how many people live somewhere; it matters what they like and who they like. Which is why, for example, Birmingham is a better college football town than Houston or Detroit.
http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/ (http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/)
Quote from: historyman on April 05, 2013, 02:07:33 PM
Yes, when I was a kid we would always check the marquis to see what movie was playing at the Premier Theater.
This is why we generally agree on everything. noddingslowly.gif
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 05, 2013, 02:26:27 PMThis is why we generally agree on everything. noddingslowly.gif
Yes, we do!(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Tony-Stark-Shakes-Head-Iron-Man.gif)
Quote from: classof2014 on April 05, 2013, 01:36:57 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 05, 2013, 01:28:51 PMHypothetically, the Chicago market may provide the conference with an increased media presence resulting in additional dollars to the conference without tournament appearances from any Chicagoland schools. Just the expansion of the market might provide net worth, meaning, in other words, if a network wants "it", the conference still has the potential to make money if it moves to 12--whether or not any of the three schools are actually media relevant in that respective market.
Couldn't agree with you more on that fact. You literally have the whole Chicagoland covered pretty much, North (LU), West (UIC), and South (Valpo). And by having 3 teams there is that much more of a chance of a team doing well in a major city and bringing in major dollars. If any of the 3 teams raise their level of play while in the MVC, this will bring in a substantial portion of the MVC's revenue. I think out of those 3 teams, Valpo currently has the best chance of doing that but both UIC and Loyola are larger schools so they naturally will have more potential followers, and being in a better conference might bring many of those UIC and Loyola alumni out of the closet.
Once again, I'm confused by this fixation on the Chicago market, since the Chicago market cares not one wit for any of the 3 teams you are talking about. It's not doing the HL any good. Why would it do the MVC any good?
I think I have the same opinion as wh. A hesitant yes to switch due because it might not be that big of a jump up, but if the Horizon starts losing members, I'm afraid they'll start adding IUPUI, IPFW, UMKC, and other Summit League members. Even an Oakland isn't all that attractive. I'd rather be in a lateral league than a watered-down Horizon.
I also like wh's point that the MVC wouldn't add UIC as the program to replace Creighton. I think it would be more logical for the MVC to wait on UIC and stay with 9 and see what options are out there - maybe Valpo commits to a new stadium? Maybe Belmont and Murray State want in? Maybe they change their mind on ORU?
I think that debunks the 'inside sources' saying UIC is a done deal. I can't imagine how in the hell two days after a visit, the same night as visiting Valpo they got all parties (each MVC AD/president) involved, as well as UIC officials and the NCAA and came to a conclusion/vote on adding UIC. Also, the decision apparently was completely independent from any other program joining, meaning the MVC would be willing to replace Creighton with a bottom feeder program from an inferior conference.
I also love StlVUFan's point above about the Chicago teams. Much love around.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 05, 2013, 02:44:11 PMOnce again, I'm confused by this fixation on the Chicago market, since the Chicago market cares not one wit for any of the 3 teams you are talking about. It's not doing the HL any good. Why would it do the MVC any good?
I think the MVC sees the potential with UIC and Loyola, obviously they haven't done much for the Horizon but there is always the potential. I don't see it but I think the MVC just sees the potential monetary gain in the Chicagoland market. I'm sure if one of these teams turns into a perennial winner then more people will be following. Right now I don't see it but who knows 3,4,5,6... years from now will bring.
Right now I don't understand wanting UIC or LU in the MVC but maybe 5 to 10 years from now we'll be saying what a smart move on behalf of the MVC.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 05, 2013, 02:44:11 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 05, 2013, 01:36:57 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 05, 2013, 01:28:51 PMHypothetically, the Chicago market may provide the conference with an increased media presence resulting in additional dollars to the conference without tournament appearances from any Chicagoland schools. Just the expansion of the market might provide net worth, meaning, in other words, if a network wants "it", the conference still has the potential to make money if it moves to 12--whether or not any of the three schools are actually media relevant in that respective market.
Couldn't agree with you more on that fact. You literally have the whole Chicagoland covered pretty much, North (LU), West (UIC), and South (Valpo). And by having 3 teams there is that much more of a chance of a team doing well in a major city and bringing in major dollars. If any of the 3 teams raise their level of play while in the MVC, this will bring in a substantial portion of the MVC's revenue. I think out of those 3 teams, Valpo currently has the best chance of doing that but both UIC and Loyola are larger schools so they naturally will have more potential followers, and being in a better conference might bring many of those UIC and Loyola alumni out of the closet.
Once again, I'm confused by this fixation on the Chicago market, since the Chicago market cares not one wit for any of the 3 teams you are talking about. It's not doing the HL any good. Why would it do the MVC any good?
Forget the focus on UIC and LUC for a moment. Again, we're talking hypothetically, but if Bradley, Illinois State and Southern Illinois have more alumni that will be able to access their school's games within the Chicagoland market with greater regularity as a result of the two additions, how does this hurt the MVC?
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 05, 2013, 02:44:11 PMOnce again, I'm confused by this fixation on the Chicago market, since the Chicago market cares not one wit for any of the 3 teams you are talking about. It's not doing the HL any good. Why would it do the MVC any good?
Maybe they have some data on MVC viewership in the Chicago market that we aren't privy to? If they are already pulling some numbers from that market perhaps they think adding Chicago based teams will expand their reach in the Chicago area.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 05, 2013, 02:26:27 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 05, 2013, 01:28:51 PMI know it's apples and oranges, but there is a reason why the Big Ten accepted Maryland and Rutgers even though they haven't been exactly world-beaters on the football field. Rutgers gets them into the NYC market somewhat even though RU may not be exactly relevant there.
Except that that doesn't matter, since that's how TV economics worked in the 90s (as in, not for much longer). I'll leave it to Will Leitch, since he's far better on the subject than I:
QuoteNot that many people are going through all the trouble to do this yet, but as cable fees keep going up, and more workarounds can be found (and we haven't even gotten into pirated feeds), more people will cut the cord. We live in an information-wants-to-be-free age, and we're still being held down by these media-company gatekeepers. In the real world it's 2012; in the cable universe, it might as well be 1988. Eventually, this will have to change. It's too insane and rigged-against-the-consumer for it not to. The problem, of course, is that, like so many capitalists before them, leagues and teams and sports networks are all assuming that it'll always be like this, that these revenue will keep growing forever and ever, that this golden goose will always keep laying eggs. There are decades upon decades of Darwinian consumer trends that contradict that. In 30 years, we may have all unplugged our cable bundles and be paying a la carte. This is the nightmare situation, but I'm not the first person to suggest we're living in a cable sports television bubble. Someday it'll pop. Then, suddenly, we'll look and think: Why in the world is Maryland in the Big Ten?
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/40627104 (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/40627104) (Sorry, 04 :))
I don't even think it will take 30 years. 10 tops. I cut the cord nine months ago and haven't looked back. And clearly I take sports seriously.
Check out this interesting (dated) Nate Silver (I know i know) article about fandom vs. market share in DI FB (i know) that points out it doesn't matter how many people live somewhere; it matters what they like and who they like. Which is why, for example, Birmingham is a better college football town than Houston or Detroit.
http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/ (http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/)
Quote from: historyman on April 05, 2013, 02:07:33 PM
Yes, when I was a kid we would always check the marquis to see what movie was playing at the Premier Theater.
This is why we generally agree on everything. noddingslowly.gif
Listen, you may be right about where TV is heading. However, that notwithstanding, I read the Nate Silver article when it came out--good and interesting reading generally. However, some of the information is suspect, IMO. Take the state of Florida for example. Do you honestly believe that Miami's market share is greater than UF's or FSU's statewide? If you do, I have some great oceanside property to sell you in Belle Glade. Miami draws sellouts at home when UF or FSU come to town because 40% of the attendance is made up of Gator or Seminole fans.
I think Crusader Joe makes a LOT of sense on the Chicago alumni base of several MVC schools.
Bradley and Illinois State probably have more than half of their alumni and students coming from Chicago. Drake, Northern Iowa, and even Southern Illinois might have more than we think.
IRONICALLY, the Missouri Valley Conference had just ONE school located in the actual Missour River valley...............Creighton.
Quote from: crusadermoe on April 05, 2013, 04:14:22 PM
I think Crusader Joe makes a LOT of sense on the Chicago alumni base of several MVC schools.
Bradley and Illinois State probably have more than half of their alumni and students coming from Chicago. Drake, Northern Iowa, and even Southern Illinois might have more than we think.
IRONICALLY, the Missouri Valley Conference had just ONE school located in the actual Missour River valley...............Creighton.
Indeed (at long last), here is something that does make some sense.
Thanks.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 05, 2013, 04:03:23 PMDo you honestly believe that Miami's market share is greater than UF's or FSU's statewide? If you do, I have some great oceanside property to sell you in Belle Glade.
I will give you that.
Here's Bethune-Cookman @ Miami (reported: 39k)
(http://mgoblog.com/sites/mgoblog.com/files/images/UV_BF26/A22Uoh_CcAACzIN1_thumb.png)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 05, 2013, 08:32:13 AM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 05, 2013, 01:18:04 AMAm I the only one who thinks Kourtney is the hot one?
Yes.
(http://www.barnorama.com/wp-content/images/2012/03/kourtney-kardashian/02-kourtney-kardashian.jpg)
I disagree :)
Something amazing has happened in the midst of all of this conference reshuffling discussion. The UIC message board has awakened from catatonia! People are posting, coherent thoughts are being expressed, hope abounds. Definitely worth a look. :)
Noone asked but here's a few random thoughts.
UIC has been on the Valley's radar for a while. There was a Trib story maybe 8-10 years ago about MVC officals touring UIC's facilities. They were quick to point out that they had no plans to expand at the time but just wanted to be prepared in case things changed.
Keep in mind that in looking at possible TV coverage both fox and NBC plan to have rival sports networks to ESPN up and running by next fall.
Apparently for the past year there are Valpo folks who have been trying to convince Evansville folks that the Horizon would be a better fit for a small private school then the MVC. One wonders which side they will come down on if Valpo gets an invite.
Having been on the UE Parents council for 4 years I can tell you that the previous administration would have loved to be in the same conference as VU. They felt that the two universities competed for the same pool of students. They were a little envious of VU's US News and World Report ranking. I am almost certain they would welcome us to the MVC.
MVC commissioner Doug Elgin told FOX Sports Kansas City that the league could be in a position to vote on new members — Creighton is slated to join the new-look Big East this summer — as soon as late April.
"I think we'll likely be in position to have a decision, or make no decision, by the end of the month," Elgin said....
http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/story/mvc-moving-closer-to-expansion-decision-?blockID=888999&fb_action_ids=10200903556060656&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map= (http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/story/mvc-moving-closer-to-expansion-decision-?blockID=888999&fb_action_ids=10200903556060656&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=)
Quote from: valpopal on April 07, 2013, 09:02:20 PM
MVC commissioner Doug Elgin told FOX Sports Kansas City that the league could be in a position to vote on new members — Creighton is slated to join the new-look Big East this summer — as soon as late April.
"I think we'll likely be in position to have a decision, or make no decision, by the end of the month," Elgin said....
http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/story/mvc-moving-closer-to-expansion-decision-?blockID=888999&fb_action_ids=10200903556060656&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map= (http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/story/mvc-moving-closer-to-expansion-decision-?blockID=888999&fb_action_ids=10200903556060656&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=)
Chances are Elgin already has a decision made within is head, whether or not the rest of the MVC is on board is the real question. I think Elgin had an idea of what team(s) he wanted right when Creighton announced they were leaving for the new Big "East", hence the reason for contacting the four teams. Wouldn't be surprised to see them jump to 12 teams, and the exclusion being UMKC. Why else would he visit 3 Chicago based schools, with all of the other schools, some better than UIC & Loyola out there somewhere between Wichita and Evansville. I think it is just a question of whether or not the ADs of the other schools are on board of going to 12 teams. Now, that is the question that still needs to be answered. If yes, welcome aboard Valpo, UIC, and Loyola. If no, then I do believe 1 out of those 3 will be a new MVC member, I'd put my money on Valpo. If it came down to 1 out of the 3 Chicago teams, I wouldn't be surprised if it was any of them to be honest.
The MVC lost perhaps their biggest market in Omaha, now they look to replace it with the Chicago market, and what better way to do with 3 teams. Just 3 times the chance of striking gold and having one of the largest markets in the United States labeled a Missouri Valley market.
I have it on good authority that the MVC's choice for a 10th member has come down to either UIC or a sleeper program that no one has been talking about - IUPUI. Apparently, both schools are perceived to be alike in many respects and would similarly devalue the MVC. Here are some of the considerations:
...similar enrollment - IUPUI 30,000 UIC 25,000
...similar academic programs, image and reputation (academic reputation exaggerated equally by alums of both schools)
...both have terrible men's basketball programs
...both reside in major metropolitan areas where they can't recruit
...no one follows either program or cares whether they exist
...neither gets any media exposure, meaning there is great opportunity for improvement at both places
...both schools are public, which would weigh the already imbalanced public/private mix further in favor of public
Another of my many sources indicates that IUPUI may in fact be slightly ahead based on more "reason for hope" :
(my source's words, not mine)
...IUPUI has been terrible playing in terrible facilities; UIC has been terrible despite playing in very good facilities
...the other D-1 program where IUPUI resides has achieved a high degree of success; all D-1's where UIC resides are equally terrible
I'll try to keep everyone posted as this develops further. There's a guy that lives down the street whose sister works in cafeteria services at UIC. I'm going to see what he can find out.
No offense intended toward anyone. Just trying to add a little levity to all the tension surrounding this whole thing. :)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 04, 2013, 04:12:31 PMQuote from: wh on April 04, 2013, 03:50:00 PM
"Well gentlemen, after a long exhaustive search, we have finally come up with the perfect replacement for our recently departed top athletic program, Creighton University. I give you UIC."
"Think of them as the IUPUI of Illinois!"
That Fox Sports article has me hoping that VU, ORU, and Loyola are added. I hadn't seen ORU on the prospect list for awhile, so I am hoping that if we are added, that they add 3 private schools to get a 6/6 ratio. ORU has shown the willingness to compete in all sports (other than moving to the Southland), and barring their 2007-2008 financial fiasco, would be a good addition for an easy rival of VU.
Quote from: valpotx on April 08, 2013, 09:53:48 AM
That Fox Sports article has me hoping that VU, ORU, and Loyola are added. I hadn't seen ORU on the prospect list for awhile, so I am hoping that if we are added, that they add 3 private schools to get a 6/6 ratio. ORU has shown the willingness to compete in all sports (other than moving to the Southland), and barring their 2007-2008 financial fiasco, would be a good addition for an easy rival of VU.
[/b]
Do you really wasnt to have to get by ORU to make the NCAAs in baseball??
The MVC has gotten multiple baseball bids in the past, so in that conference, I would not mind it at all. They always have a really good RPI, so if we beat them every so often as we did in our final Mid-Con days, it really helps out. With Dallas Baptist joining as an affiliate member for baseball only next season, the MVC is positioning itself as a constant multiple bid baseball league. That can only help us in the future as well, as we have gotten much more competitive on a national scale since Woodson took over. A conference with Wichita State (good on a national level just about every year), Dallas Baptist (same), and ORU (same) would possibly be in the mix for 3+ bids each year, which not many non-Southern/Western conferences can say they get! Even Indiana State has really picked it up over the last few seasons, and I believe they got an at-large last year.
Quote from: valpotx on April 08, 2013, 11:12:45 AM
The MVC has gotten multiple baseball bids in the past, so in that conference, I would not mind it at all. They always have a really good RPI, so if we beat them every so often as we did in our final Mid-Con days, it really helps out. With Dallas Baptist joining as an affiliate member for baseball only next season, the MVC is positioning itself as a constant multiple bid baseball league. That can only help us in the future as well, as we have gotten much more competitive on a national scale since Woodson took over. A conference with Wichita State (good on a national level just about every year), Dallas Baptist (same), and ORU (same) would possibly be in the mix for 3+ bids each year, which not many non-Southern/Western conferences can say they get! Even Indiana State has really picked it up over the last few seasons, and I believe they got an at-large last year.
And Valpo visiting Dallas Baptist every year for baseball would give valpotx a chance to see Coach Woodson and the boys each spring.
Good info. Thanks!
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 04, 2013, 10:56:46 PM
In all seriousness, facilities upgrades would be insisted upon by MVC officials.
HL 2+ bids: (bold denotes 3 or more)
1989 (Xavier, Evansville)
1990 (Xavier, Dayton)
1993 (Xavier, Evansville)
1995 (Xavier, Green Bay)
1996 (Northern Illinois, Green Bay)
1998 (Detroit, Butler, UIC)
2003 (Butler, Milwaukee)
2007 (Butler, Wright State)
2009 (Butler, Cleveland State)
All-time in the tournament: 31-41 (43.1%)
In the 32 years (since 1982): 42 bids (1.31 a year, or every 4 years an at-large bid)
In the last 20 years: 27 bids (1.35 a year, same)
In the last 10 years: 12 bids (1.2 a year, or every 5 years an at-large bid)
MVC 2+ bids (only going back as far as 1982 for comparison to HL's sake)
1984 (Illinois State, Tulsa)
1985 (Illinois State, Tulsa, Wichita State)
1986 (Tulsa, Bradley)
1987 (Tulsa, Wichita State)
1988 (Bradley, Wichita State)
1994 (Tulsa, Southern Illinois)
1996 (Tulsa, Bradley)
1999 (Creighton, Missouri State, Evansville)
2000 (Creighton, Indiana State)
2001 (Creighton, Indiana State)
2002 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2003 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2004 (Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois)
2005 (Creighton, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois)
2006 (Wichita State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, Bradley)
2007 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2012 (Wichita State, Creighton)
2013 (Wichita State, Creighton)
All-time in the tournament: 92-98 (48.4%) ...plus pending loss to Louisville ;)
In the last 32 years: 55 bids (1.72 a year, or about 2 at-large every 3, or 3 every 4 years)
In the last 20 years: 37 bids (1.85 a year, or an at-large about 8 out of 9 years)
In the last 10 years: 19 bids (1.9 a year, or, yeah, 9 years out of 10, but you figured that out)
That last number is especially impressive when you realize that they went 4 straight years without an at-large bid from 2008 through 2011. 4 straight years is now the HL's current streak for missing an at-large.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 05, 2013, 02:44:11 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 05, 2013, 01:36:57 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 05, 2013, 01:28:51 PMHypothetically, the Chicago market may provide the conference with an increased media presence resulting in additional dollars to the conference without tournament appearances from any Chicagoland schools. Just the expansion of the market might provide net worth, meaning, in other words, if a network wants "it", the conference still has the potential to make money if it moves to 12--whether or not any of the three schools are actually media relevant in that respective market.
Couldn't agree with you more on that fact. You literally have the whole Chicagoland covered pretty much, North (LU), West (UIC), and South (Valpo). And by having 3 teams there is that much more of a chance of a team doing well in a major city and bringing in major dollars. If any of the 3 teams raise their level of play while in the MVC, this will bring in a substantial portion of the MVC's revenue. I think out of those 3 teams, Valpo currently has the best chance of doing that but both UIC and Loyola are larger schools so they naturally will have more potential followers, and being in a better conference might bring many of those UIC and Loyola alumni out of the closet.
Once again, I'm confused by this fixation on the Chicago market, since the Chicago market cares not one wit for any of the 3 teams you are talking about. It's not doing the HL any good. Why would it do the MVC any good?
Maybe not the Chicago Market, but that most Universities in the HL or MVC would have a fair number of alumni in the Chicago area. Also, the MVC could be looking for a tournament host, which Chicago would qualify for with Loyola, UIC and Valpo.
Thank you. It was edifying to me to put together.
You could make the argument--emphasis on the subjunctive--that the MVC's high-water mark for the Dance was 1999 through 2007.
In those 8 years, they averaged 2.625 bids a year!
Before that, they averaged 1.47. Since then, 1.5.
I guess I did make that argument anyway, didn't I? ;)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 08, 2013, 12:35:30 PM
Thank you. It was edifying to me to put together.
You could make the argument--emphasis on the subjunctive--that the MVC's high-water mark for the Dance was 1999 through 2007.
In those 8 years, they averaged 2.625 bids a year!
Before that, they averaged 1.47. Since then, 1.5.
I guess I did make that argument anyway, didn't I? ;)
My GUESS is that you set the record for words per post on this board. How can anyone compete with that? Wordy Nerdy is a term that comes to mind. Speaking of minds........damn, I lost my train of thought.....speaking of trains.............
http://www.youtube.com/embed/FKTHDrCnyzI (http://www.youtube.com/embed/FKTHDrCnyzI)
speaking of words........
Hawk Nelson: Words [Official Lyric Video] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anVweXDcxhA#ws)
Think about it.
Quote from: bbtds on April 08, 2013, 02:10:30 PMMy GUESS is that you set the record for words per post on this board.
you say that after a post with <50 words in it?
Rob Demovsky @RobDemovsky 10h
@letsgoguins If the UIC thing is wrong, then someone at UIC had it wrong. You also should know no one in Chicago cares abt UIC to report it
CYA going on. Demovsky and our Milw friend have been saying that what they originally reported came from different sources within the UIC athletic dept. Very likely those "sources" heard the same rumor being spread throughout the UIC athletic dept. and passed it on. That may be 2 sources, but they're not 2 independent sources. An example of independent sources would be one trustworthy source from within UIC plus one or more trustworthy sources from outside UIC, say from the MVC Commissioner's office and/or an MVC program. Moreover, the rumor alleging that adding UIC was a done deal didn't make any sense from a timing standpoint.
Those two factors alone should have been enough to prompt a seasoned veteran like Demovsky that he needed to do more fact checking before he ran with this. Instead of simply admitting that, he smugly tweets that if the rumor proves to be false, the blame is on the "source" and not on the reporter who recklessly passed it on and misled everyone in the process.
A bad case of premature gratification is Twitter, where diarrhea of the mind flows through the fingers onto the keypads of phones, iPads, iPod Touch, and laptops/PCs, and the origin doesn't matter because the "Tweeter" thinks they can seamlessly hide behind it like they can on a message board name. I use Twitter, but I just don't get why some people have to live and die by the concept that "If I have a good story, then I have to tweet or Facebook it." If you think it is a good story, do some more research to make sure it's true, otherwise you're going to have some really messy laundry to clean up.
Yep, knew it didn't sound correct the first time I saw it. It made absolutely no sense that the MVC was just so blown away by UIC that they had to have an immediate vote to add them to the MVC now. It would be completely mindless to just visit UMKC, Valpo, UIC, and Loyola, when you still have several weeks before you really need to lock down a member, if you do at all for 2013-2014. ORU is now pushing hard for the MVC, and I am sure that they will at least get a visit as well. I still think that we have a chance to get an invite, but really need to promise a lot on the facilities side.
Tulsa paper lists Valpo, Belmont, Denver and ORU as the most often mentioned candidates for the MVC. The writer believes the long history of Tulsa with the conference could be a factor in ORU's favor.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/ORU_needs_to_push_for_Missouri_Valley_invitation/20130328_203_B1_Tulsas39837 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/ORU_needs_to_push_for_Missouri_Valley_invitation/20130328_203_B1_Tulsas39837)
Without knowing more about MVC and ORU history, I think if you are a Valpo fan and you really really want to see VU in the MVC, ORU poses a significant danger even if the MVC expands to 12. Just look at a map. ORU could very easily solidify the southwestern area of their geographical circle while at the same time the two Chicago schools could help solidify their northeastern area. Valpo then becomes the odd man out. Plus, they are private so it helps with the public/private balance. Just something else to think about.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 09, 2013, 02:39:38 PMat the same time the two Chicago schools could help solidify their northeastern area. Valpo then becomes the odd man out.
I don't know...if UIC & Loyola were so good and important, wouldn't they have done just that for the HL after so many years?
Who needs 2 IUPUIs, regardless of what major metro center they're in?
Of course the Tulsa World will say that ORU is the leading candidate. Are they going to tell their readers that they have no chance so that they don't view future MVC articles they write??
More food for thought:
as of right now, the HL has
17 NCAA units, at approximately a quarter million dollars apiece. (2011s were worth $222,206, 2012s $245,656 and 2013 $245,514, for example.) A unit represents a game played by a team in the conference, up to five total for reaching the F4.
(
Hm...I wonder if this means a play-in game is infinitely better for a low-major conference because you have a ZILLION PERCENT better chance [~50% over ~0%] to win a game and thus get a second unit before you end up like France in the 1940 NCAA 1st round...but I digress.)
The MVC has
16, even with WSU's run to the F4.
Plus when you factor in "divided by 9" vs. "divided by 10", I have the HL schools richer by a factor of 1.18 (or making 18% more money), at least for right now.
Butler's F4s will keep paying for 2 and 3 more years, respectively...staying in the HL means another $600K for VU just from Butler for those two years.
Last year the HL had 20 and the MVC 15.
Two years ago the HL had 21 and the MVC 18.
Three years ago the HL had 19 and the MVC 21.
Four years ago, before butler was B----R, the HL had 15 and the MVC 20.
Just food for thought is all.
=============
EDIT: showing my work
HL tournament history: http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/HL/tournament (http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/HL/tournament)
MVC tournament history: http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/VALLEY/tournament (http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/VALLEY/tournament)
calculation of an NCAA unit:QuoteEach Final Four team has maxed out its earning potential for its conference because the championship game is not counted toward the NCAA's conference distributions. A run to the Final Four accrues a team's conference five basketball units, one for each game played, which are worth an estimated total $7.7 million over the next six years.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/04/01/the-money-behind-the-ncaa-final-four/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/04/01/the-money-behind-the-ncaa-final-four/)
value of an NCAA unit:QuoteIn 2010-2011, one unit was worth approximately $222,206. In 2012-13, one unit is worth approximately $248,000 after clocking in at $245,656 in 2011-12. Furthermore, the NCAA pays conferences each season for the "units earned" over the course of the previous 6 seasons.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/17/marchs-monetary-madness-as-ncaas-collegiate-basketball-showcase-takes-center-stage/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/17/marchs-monetary-madness-as-ncaas-collegiate-basketball-showcase-takes-center-stage/)
value of an NCAA win:QuoteUsing recent increases and future projections as a guide, we can estimate that the total six-year value of playing a tournament game in 2013 is more than $1.5 million.
And that's just the value of a single game played by one team.
If a team wins its first-round game, it doubles the six-year conference payout to more than $3 million. If it makes a run to the Final Four, thus appearing in five tournament games, it will earn its conference a massive $7.7 million over the next six years.
That's a nice chunk of cash, and a necessary one for the smaller conferences that can't rely on BCS bowl game revenue or massive TV deals.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/03/21/a-single-ncaa-tournament-victory-is-worth-1-5-million/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/03/21/a-single-ncaa-tournament-victory-is-worth-1-5-million/)
Quote from: wh on April 07, 2013, 10:19:39 PM
I have it on good authority that the MVC's choice for a 10th member has come down to either UIC or a sleeper program that no one has been talking about - IUPUI. Apparently, both schools are perceived to be alike in many respects and would similarly devalue the MVC. Here are some of the considerations:
...similar enrollment - IUPUI 30,000 UIC 25,000
...similar academic programs, image and reputation (academic reputation exaggerated equally by alums of both schools)
...both have terrible men's basketball programs
...both reside in major metropolitan areas where they can't recruit
...no one follows either program or cares whether they exist
...neither gets any media exposure, meaning there is great opportunity for improvement at both places
...both schools are public, which would weigh the already imbalanced public/private mix further in favor of public
Another of my many sources indicates that IUPUI may in fact be slightly ahead based on more "reason for hope" :
(my source's words, not mine)
...IUPUI has been terrible playing in terrible facilities; UIC has been terrible despite playing in very good facilities
...the other D-1 program where IUPUI resides has achieved a high degree of success; all D-1's where UIC resides are equally terrible
I'll try to keep everyone posted as this develops further. There's a guy that lives down the street whose sister works in cafeteria services at UIC. I'm going to see what he can find out.
No offense intended toward anyone. Just trying to add a little levity to all the tension surrounding this whole thing. :)
I get the attempt at humor, but since I'm writing checks to IUPUI, I'll take a stab at defending the school. Over the last 6 years, IUPUI men's basketball's average RPI is 176 ... not good enough to positively impact the MVC (although it wouldn't hurt the Horizon), but certainly competitive with UIC or Loyola. (Didn't bother researching those, but Valpo's average is 125. Better than IUPUI, but again, not good enough to positively impact the MVC in terms of at large bids).
I also take exception at the "terrible facilities" jab. Here's what they have:
Basketball / Volleyball - "The Jungle" is ok for volleyball, but clearly inadequate for DI basketball. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/jungle.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/jungle.aspx?) As I mentioned in another thread, the rumor is that men's basketball will move to the renovated Pepsi Coliseum when complete in July 2014, with a capacity of 8,000 to 9,000. http://www.in.gov/statefair/fairgrounds/venues/pepsi_coliseum.html (http://www.in.gov/statefair/fairgrounds/venues/pepsi_coliseum.html)
Track and Field - Michael Carroll Stadium ... has hosted multiple USA Track and Field championships. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/carrol_stadium.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/carrol_stadium.aspx?)
Swimming and Diving - Their facility is sort of nice ... having hosted NCAA Championships and Olympic Trials. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx?)
Soccer - http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx?) Nice facility for soccer, which could get a facelift in the near future to accommodate professional soccer. http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/ (http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/)
General training facility - The National Institute for Fitness and Sport (NIFS) is quite a nice facility for training needs. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/nifs.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/nifs.aspx?)
Sorry for getting sidetracked ... just my :twocents: Carry on. ;)
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 09, 2013, 06:00:27 PM
I get the attempt at humor, but since I'm writing checks to IUPUI, I'll take a stab at defending the school. Over the last 6 years, IUPUI men's basketball's average RPI is 176 ... not good enough to positively impact the MVC (although it wouldn't hurt the Horizon), but certainly competitive with UIC or Loyola. (Didn't bother researching those, but Valpo's average is 125. Better than IUPUI, but again, not good enough to positively impact the MVC in terms of at large bids).
I also take exception at the "terrible facilities" jab. Here's what they have:
Basketball / Volleyball - "The Jungle" is ok for volleyball, but clearly inadequate for DI basketball. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/jungle.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/jungle.aspx?) As I mentioned in another thread, the rumor is that men's basketball will move to the renovated Pepsi Coliseum when complete in July 2014, with a capacity of 8,000 to 9,000. http://www.in.gov/statefair/fairgrounds/venues/pepsi_coliseum.html (http://www.in.gov/statefair/fairgrounds/venues/pepsi_coliseum.html)
Track and Field - Michael Carroll Stadium ... has hosted multiple USA Track and Field championships. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/carrol_stadium.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/carrol_stadium.aspx?)
Swimming and Diving - Their facility is sort of nice ... having hosted NCAA Championships and Olympic Trials. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx?)
Soccer - http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx?) Nice facility for soccer, which could get a facelift in the near future to accommodate professional soccer. http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/ (http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/)
General training facility - The National Institute for Fitness and Sport (NIFS) is quite a nice facility for training needs. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/nifs.aspx? (http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/nifs.aspx?)
Sorry for getting sidetracked ... just my :twocents: Carry on. ;)
From the day Butler departed the HL to the present day, two schools that everyone on every HL message board have consistently maintained that they DO NOT want in this league are IUPUI and IPFW. Yet, I don't recall you ever saying one word in defense of IUPUI over all this time. Instead, you get defensive when I lampoon IUPUI as a school that a higher rated conference obviously wouldn't consider. I will assume that this is YOUR attempt at humor. ;)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 09, 2013, 04:19:13 PM
More food for thought:
as of right now, the HL has 17 NCAA units, at approximately a quarter million dollars apiece. (2011s were worth $222,206, 2012s $245,656 and 2013 $245,514, for example.) A unit represents a game played by a team in the conference, up to five total for reaching the F4.
(Hm...I wonder if this means a play-in game is infinitely better for a low-major conference because you have a ZILLION PERCENT better chance [~50% over ~0%] to win a game and thus get a second unit before you end up like France in the 1940 NCAA 1st round...but I digress.)
The MVC has 16, even with WSU's run to the F4.
Plus when you factor in "divided by 9" vs. "divided by 10", I have the HL schools richer by a factor of 1.18 (or making 18% more money), at least for right now.
Butler's F4s will keep paying for 2 and 3 more years, respectively...staying in the HL means another $600K for VU just from Butler for those two years.
Last year the HL had 20 and the MVC 15.
Two years ago the HL had 21 and the MVC 18.
Three years ago the HL had 19 and the MVC 21.
Four years ago, before butler was B----R, the HL had 15 and the MVC 20.
Just food for thought is all.
=============
EDIT: showing my work
HL tournament history: http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/HL/tournament (http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/HL/tournament)
MVC tournament history: http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/VALLEY/tournament (http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/VALLEY/tournament)
calculation of an NCAA unit:
QuoteEach Final Four team has maxed out its earning potential for its conference because the championship game is not counted toward the NCAA's conference distributions. A run to the Final Four accrues a team's conference five basketball units, one for each game played, which are worth an estimated total $7.7 million over the next six years.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/04/01/the-money-behind-the-ncaa-final-four/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/04/01/the-money-behind-the-ncaa-final-four/)
value of an NCAA unit:
QuoteIn 2010-2011, one unit was worth approximately $222,206. In 2012-13, one unit is worth approximately $248,000 after clocking in at $245,656 in 2011-12. Furthermore, the NCAA pays conferences each season for the "units earned" over the course of the previous 6 seasons.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/17/marchs-monetary-madness-as-ncaas-collegiate-basketball-showcase-takes-center-stage/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/17/marchs-monetary-madness-as-ncaas-collegiate-basketball-showcase-takes-center-stage/)
value of an NCAA win:
QuoteUsing recent increases and future projections as a guide, we can estimate that the total six-year value of playing a tournament game in 2013 is more than $1.5 million.
And that's just the value of a single game played by one team.
If a team wins its first-round game, it doubles the six-year conference payout to more than $3 million. If it makes a run to the Final Four, thus appearing in five tournament games, it will earn its conference a massive $7.7 million over the next six years.
That's a nice chunk of cash, and a necessary one for the smaller conferences that can't rely on BCS bowl game revenue or massive TV deals.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/03/21/a-single-ncaa-tournament-victory-is-worth-1-5-million/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/03/21/a-single-ncaa-tournament-victory-is-worth-1-5-million/)
Is now a good time for the words per post thread? ;D
Quote from: valpotx on April 09, 2013, 04:13:11 PM
Of course the Tulsa World will say that ORU is the leading candidate. Are they going to tell their readers that they have no chance so that they don't view future MVC articles they write??
As I read the article cited, I don't believe the writer was saying ORU is the leading candidate. I believe he was urging ORU to make an all-out effort to get a spot in the conference and that he felt it would be good for the conference.
Quote from: bbtds on April 09, 2013, 06:35:52 PMIs now a good time for the words per post thread.
touché
(http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4040&d=1353501196)
although, does copying and pasting really count? :)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 09, 2013, 06:52:43 PMalthough, does copying and pasting really count?
If it's not more than 50% of the words then it is a "play-in" post. ::) :)
Of course, a "play-in" post could net the reader more value as a poster if they "win" the "play-in" thread.
Quote from: wh on April 09, 2013, 06:33:20 PM
From the day Butler departed the HL to the present day, two schools that everyone on every HL message board have consistently maintained that they DO NOT want in this league are IUPUI and IPFW. Yet, I don't recall you ever saying one word in defense of IUPUI over all this time. Instead, you get defensive when I lampoon IUPUI as a school that a higher rated conference obviously wouldn't consider. I will assume that this is YOUR attempt at humor. ;)
I was obviously joking ... a higher rated conference considering a school with horrible facilities, marginal commitment to athletics and no history of earning at large NCAA basketball bids is laughable. Unless, of course, they're just looking for a warm body to fill an empty seat (and IUPUI makes no sense for the Horizon since they need someone with a baseball program).
Quote from: wh on April 09, 2013, 06:33:20 PMhttp://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/ (http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/)
Want to know how close IUPUI is to NCAA headquarters? Look at the brown building to the right in that sketch of the IUPUI soccer facility. The front part of that complex is the NCAA Hall of Champions on the canal in downtown Indy. The back part is the NFHS and NCAA. The tall square like reflective building is the J.W. Marriott Hotel where many huge Indy events are held. The Natatorium building is directly west of the soccer facility (left is north, right is south). The Jungle is across the hall from the swimming pool in the Nat.
Quote from: bbtds on April 09, 2013, 09:28:17 PM
Quote from: wh on April 09, 2013, 06:33:20 PMhttp://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/ (http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/)
Want to know how close IUPUI is to NCAA headquarters? Look at the brown building to the right in that sketch of the IUPUI soccer facility. The front part of that complex is the NCAA Hall of Champions on the canal in downtown Indy. The back part is the NFHS and NCAA. The tall square like reflective building is the J.W. Marriott Hotel where many huge Indy events are held. The Natatorium building is directly west of the soccer facility (left is north, right is south). The Jungle is across the hall from the swimming pool in the Nat.
And if you squint, you can see the Horizon League's headquarters in Pan Am Plaza. Squint a little harder and you can see a caricature of Jon LeCrone looking out the window and laughing at IUPUI's horrible facilities.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 09, 2013, 02:56:11 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 09, 2013, 02:39:38 PMat the same time the two Chicago schools could help solidify their northeastern area. Valpo then becomes the odd man out.
I don't know...if UIC & Loyola were so good and important, wouldn't they have done just that for the HL after so many years?
Who needs 2 IUPUIs, regardless of what major metro center they're in?
I agree ... the MVC is losing Creighton and needs someone to step in and fill those shoes immediately. Valpo is coming off back-to-back league championships and a trip to the NCAA tournament. No other team mentioned can come close to that. By adding Valpo, they could move forward without missing a beat. The MVC is filled with small city universities that draw well because they're the only show in town. Valpo fits that mold ... UIC, Loyola and UMKC don't.
The other oddity is that I haven't seen St. Louis mentioned with the MVC. In my mind, that means that either a.) SLU is heading to the Big East after this season, or b.) the A-10 will be adding additional Midwest teams (Detroit, Loyola????) to join SLU and Dayton as Midwest members. My bet is a.).
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 09, 2013, 09:59:03 PM
Quote from: bbtds on April 09, 2013, 09:28:17 PM
Quote from: wh on April 09, 2013, 06:33:20 PMhttp://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/ (http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/)
Want to know how close IUPUI is to NCAA headquarters? Look at the brown building to the right in that sketch of the IUPUI soccer facility. The front part of that complex is the NCAA Hall of Champions on the canal in downtown Indy. The back part is the NFHS and NCAA. The tall square like reflective building is the J.W. Marriott Hotel where many huge Indy events are held. The Natatorium building is directly west of the soccer facility (left is north, right is south). The Jungle is across the hall from the swimming pool in the Nat.
And if you squint, you can see the Horizon League's headquarters in Pan Am Plaza. Squint a little harder and you can see a caricature of Jon LeCrone looking out the window and laughing at IUPUI's horrible facilities.
You wonder what it was like for the HL to team with IUPUI officials for hosting the men's basketball regional at Lucas Oil Stadium. "No, we don't want to come to the Nat for the meetings. We'd rather meet at the Pan Am Plaza, NCAA headquarters or Lucas Oil. I'm not setting foot in that Jungle," said Jon LeCrone.
Quote from: EddieCabot on April 09, 2013, 10:16:42 PMThe MVC is filled with small city universities that draw well because they're the only show in town.
Very good and perhaps uncovered-thus-far point...
(although EC has CLEARLY not seen the 49er or the MOH.)
/s
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 09, 2013, 10:45:10 PM
Quote from: EddieCabot on April 09, 2013, 10:16:42 PMThe MVC is filled with small city universities that draw well because they're the only show in town.
Very good and perhaps uncovered-thus-far point...
(although EC has CLEARLY not seen the 49er or the MOH.)
/s
49er=Tibbs, west side of Indy. Sometimes Indy seems like a small town that grew big.
(http://s3-media2.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/dCHItLxePUkBWbt04d80Bg/l.jpg)
(http://s3-media2.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/jbtyrUdH3FfUHbkFqd6-qQ/l.jpg)
(http://s3-media2.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/pXH1-DFM-bLivOOAShgNbA/l.jpg)
(http://s3-media3.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/7BeHNcX2-lrPDA8DaFjFsg/l.jpg)
(http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/qLhr3irg4enV-0jBKLi8mQ/l.jpg)
More visits planned by MVC -
http://www.wjbc.com/common/page.php?pt=MVC+officials+visit+possible+replacements&id=44863&is_corp=0 (http://www.wjbc.com/common/page.php?pt=MVC+officials+visit+possible+replacements&id=44863&is_corp=0)
Belmont, ORU, and Denver
....UIC certainly jumped the gun in spreading the rumor that they are in....if they were such a clear cut choice why more visits? Hope it backfires on them
I still don't see Denver as an option in the MVC. They expand the geographic footprint too much, don't have really any history of success outside of the last few seasons (maybe just one season), and don't have baseball, which is definitely a main consideration for the conference with it being their second best sport.
Belmont won't ever really be supported more than it is currently in Nashville. They averaged around 2k fans this past season, when they had a top 30 rpi...
ORU certainly has a chance.
If I were the MVC, I would look at the ORU/Loyola/Valpo combination. It gives the conference a good mix of 6/6 private vs. public, and it seems to be their focus based on the schools they are talking to (5 of 7 considered so far).
Quote from: valpotx on April 10, 2013, 01:16:08 PMIf I were the MVC, I would look at the ORU/Loyola/Valpo combination. It gives the conference a good mix of 6/6 private vs. public, and it seems to be their focus based on the schools they are talking to (5 of 7 considered so far).
Or rather it's what works out best for Valpo. What would be best for the Missouri Valley is to replace Creighton with Saint Louis. I wonder if anyone in St. Louis would agree.
SLU would only agree to that if the Big East did not already promise them a spot. I can pretty much guarantee that if the NBE does not offer Dayton/SLU, that those two schools would be highest on the MVC list...but that is a moot point, since they will be offered by the NBE
Quote from: valpotx on April 10, 2013, 01:16:08 PMIf I were the MVC, I would look at the ORU/Loyola/Valpo combination. It gives the conference a good mix of 6/6 private vs. public, and it seems to be their focus based on the schools they are talking to (5 of 7 considered so far).
I think that is the best combo so far. None are too far away from other schools. Oral Roberts isn't that far from Wichita and Springfield. It would make for a logical east and west division and each division will have 3 public schools and 3 private schools
East:
Valpo, Indiana St, Evansville, Loyola, Illinois St, Southern Illinois
West:
Northern Iowa, Drake, Bradley, Missouri St, Oral Roberts, Wichita St
I might swap Bradley and SIU :popcorn:
That would be a pretty solid league right there! My thinking is great in both basketball and baseball (with DBU included next season). I believe that our improvements in our core sports would allow for us to compete fairly quickly: M/W basketball, volleyball, baseball, softball, M/W soccer. That doesn't mean we would win championships right away, but we would at least be away from the cellar in most of these in the near future (mid-table to upper 33%). We would really have to ramp up our T&F, S&D, and CC programs in order to stay away from the all-sports cup cellar, however.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 10, 2013, 01:54:19 PMEast:
Valpo, Indiana St, Evansville, Loyola, Illinois St, Southern Illinois
West:
Northern Iowa, Drake, Bradley, Missouri St, Oral Roberts, Wichita St
Playing in a two-division league would take some getting used to, for me. I've never thought about them much. I guess you play your division home-and-away, and the other division _either_ home or away? 16 conference games a season isn't so bad.
For the other division do you have sort of an "A" group and a "B" group? In odd numbered years you play A home, B away, and even numbered years vice versa? Or is it more complicated?
Tournament seeding must get at least a little more complicated...
Quote from: agibson on April 10, 2013, 02:21:46 PMFor the other division do you have sort of an "A" group and a "B" group? In odd numbered years you play A home, B away, and even numbered years vice versa? Or is it more complicated?
Since each division would have 3 public and 3 private. You can play the 3 public at home and the 3 private away, and flip flop every season.
Even though I would love to play Wichita State in baseball and basketball, maybe they end up leaving the MVC for the MWC or another conference. If that is the case, the conference becomes even more compact, and we will be even more alluring to the MVC with another slot open :)
If Valpo does not get an invitation to join the MVC, it will most likely be due to our inferior (by comparison) athletic facilities. Some of us on this board have said repeatedly things like you can't have your cake and eat it too, we are living on borrowed time, the credit for our bb program goes strictly to the Drews who have succeeded despite the lack of support from the university to upgrade the ARC, etc. Athletic facility needs should have been planned for years ago and built piecemeal into various campus improvement initiatives over the years - but they weren't. So here we are when it comes time to put on a dog and pony show for MVC officials, trying to explain how we have a glorified high school gym for men's basketball (our glory sport), an NCAA sponsored inter-collegiate track and field program with no track facilities, a football field that (well, everyone knows the drill), while our competitors are proudly displaying their new this and modern that. Someone would actually have to lie to make a statement to the search committee that the university fully supports its athletic programs. I'm sure that whoever represented Valpo conveyed how they have big plans for facility improvements in the future, but why would anyone believe them. Excuses and promises don't make for a very convincing presentation.
For those in the brotherhood who have steadfastly defended past decisions by the administration and board to ignore athletic facility needs in favor of everything else, I hope you don't complain if/when we get turned down. A day of reckoning has been coming for a long time and frankly it's probably long overdue.
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
If Valpo does not get an invitation to join the MVC, it will most likely be due to our inferior (by comparison) athletic facilities. Some of us on this board have said repeatedly things like you can't have your cake and eat it too, we are living on borrowed time, the credit for our bb program goes strictly to the Drews who have succeeded despite the lack of support from the university to upgrade the ARC, etc. Athletic facility needs should have been planned for years ago and built piecemeal into various campus improvement initiatives over the years - but they weren't. So here we are when it comes time to put on a dog and pony show for MVC officials, trying to explain how we have a glorified high school gym for men's basketball (our glory sport), an NCAA sponsored inter-collegiate track and field program with no track facilities, a football field that (well, everyone knows the drill), while our competitors are proudly displaying their new this and modern that. Someone would actually have to lie to make a statement to the search committee that the university fully supports its athletic programs. I'm sure that whoever represented Valpo conveyed how they have big plans for facility improvements in the future, but why would anyone believe them. Excuses and promises don't make for a very convincing presentation.
For those in the brotherhood who have steadfastly defended past decisions by the administration and board to ignore athletic facility needs in favor of everything else, I hope you don't complain if/when we get turned down. A day of reckoning has been coming for a long time and frankly it's probably long overdue.
I agree, Valpo has the athletics right now to deserve to be in a higher conference but the facilities are terrible. We have great coaches and great athletes but if Valpo doesn't show that they appreciate all their hard work they will leave and move on to bigger and better things.
First step, put a track around Brown Field, it can't cost too much money to do that and shouldn't take much longer than the summer.
Hopefully the hospital will be gone this summer and that new fieldhouse will be built where the hospital was. Thus becoming the new home for the basketball squad?
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
If Valpo does not get an invitation to join the MVC, it will most likely be due to our inferior (by comparison) athletic facilities. Some of us on this board have said repeatedly things like you can't have your cake and eat it too, we are living on borrowed time, the credit for our bb program goes strictly to the Drews who have succeeded despite the lack of support from the university to upgrade the ARC, etc. Athletic facility needs should have been planned for years ago and built piecemeal into various campus improvement initiatives over the years - but they weren't. So here we are when it comes time to put on a dog and pony show for MVC officials, trying to explain how we have a glorified high school gym for men's basketball (our glory sport), an NCAA sponsored inter-collegiate track and field program with no track facilities, a football field that (well, everyone knows the drill), while our competitors are proudly displaying their new this and modern that. Someone would actually have to lie to make a statement to the search committee that the university fully supports its athletic programs. I'm sure that whoever represented Valpo conveyed how they have big plans for facility improvements in the future, but why would anyone believe them. Excuses and promises don't make for a very convincing presentation.
For those in the brotherhood who have steadfastly defended past decisions by the administration and board to ignore athletic facility needs in favor of everything else, I hope you don't complain if/when we get turned down. A day of reckoning has been coming for a long time and frankly it's probably long overdue.
With ya all the way WH -- no secret there. The point is that the Drews, the Avery's, the Woodsons have been winning DESPITE the facilities issue. That's great coaching and dedication (and even greater recruiting when ya think about it).
One good thing and five bad things can happen in this scenario.
Good Thing: We get the invite despite the facility issue
The Bad Things:
1) The invite validates the administration's hands-off, meager funding view point and VU continues to be an embarrassment.
2) If we get the invite, the administration continues to believe that good coaches will stay because they love Valpo and are willing to sacrifice.
3) We don't get an invite, because we've neglected to upgrade our facilities and do not meet the MVC standard. The opportunity was there but the administration blew it.
4) If we don't get the invite we lose our coaches because enough is enough. We lose out on an opportunity to join a more prestigious conference. Every one of them could do better financially and winning-wise elsewhere where the facilities were not a burden but a benefit.
5) Even if we get the invite, we loose our coaches anyway, because enough is enough. We still have crappy facilities and now it will be even more difficult to recruit against other MVC teams (at least in HL, they had a chance).
Quote from: classof2014 on April 10, 2013, 05:23:58 PM
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
If Valpo does not get an invitation to join the MVC, it will most likely be due to our inferior (by comparison) athletic facilities. Some of us on this board have said repeatedly things like you can't have your cake and eat it too, we are living on borrowed time, the credit for our bb program goes strictly to the Drews who have succeeded despite the lack of support from the university to upgrade the ARC, etc. Athletic facility needs should have been planned for years ago and built piecemeal into various campus improvement initiatives over the years - but they weren't. So here we are when it comes time to put on a dog and pony show for MVC officials, trying to explain how we have a glorified high school gym for men's basketball (our glory sport), an NCAA sponsored inter-collegiate track and field program with no track facilities, a football field that (well, everyone knows the drill), while our competitors are proudly displaying their new this and modern that. Someone would actually have to lie to make a statement to the search committee that the university fully supports its athletic programs. I'm sure that whoever represented Valpo conveyed how they have big plans for facility improvements in the future, but why would anyone believe them. Excuses and promises don't make for a very convincing presentation.
For those in the brotherhood who have steadfastly defended past decisions by the administration and board to ignore athletic facility needs in favor of everything else, I hope you don't complain if/when we get turned down. A day of reckoning has been coming for a long time and frankly it's probably long overdue.
I agree, Valpo has the athletics right now to deserve to be in a higher conference but the facilities are terrible. We have great coaches and great athletes but if Valpo doesn't show that they appreciate all their hard work they will leave and move on to bigger and better things.
First step, put a track around Brown Field, it can't cost too much money to do that and shouldn't take much longer than the summer.
Hopefully the hospital will be gone this summer and that new fieldhouse will be built where the hospital was. Thus becoming the new home for the basketball squad?
[/b]
This is what Mark L. had to say about the cost of the track several months back:
The last time the track project was priced the estimate was $1.8 million. The track surface is only part of the cost. The asphalt base needs to be built, there is a significant amount of site work (eg: removing the old tennis courts) and drainage needed plus landscaping. Our plan also includes jump areas and the equipment needed for staging track meets. We still need to raise the majority of those funds.
As for the fieldhouse being the new home for basketball--No, that's not the plan. The fieldhouse will allow some programs and coaches offices to be moved and reduce the stress currently on the ARC. Then the plan is to gut the ARC and put in the improvements discussed .
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
If Valpo does not get an invitation to join the MVC, it will most likely be due to our inferior (by comparison) athletic facilities. Some of us on this board have said repeatedly things like you can't have your cake and eat it too, we are living on borrowed time, the credit for our bb program goes strictly to the Drews who have succeeded despite the lack of support from the university to upgrade the ARC, etc. Athletic facility needs should have been planned for years ago and built piecemeal into various campus improvement initiatives over the years - but they weren't. So here we are when it comes time to put on a dog and pony show for MVC officials, trying to explain how we have a glorified high school gym for men's basketball (our glory sport), an NCAA sponsored inter-collegiate track and field program with no track facilities, a football field that (well, everyone knows the drill), while our competitors are proudly displaying their new this and modern that. Someone would actually have to lie to make a statement to the search committee that the university fully supports its athletic programs. I'm sure that whoever represented Valpo conveyed how they have big plans for facility improvements in the future, but why would anyone believe them. Excuses and promises don't make for a very convincing presentation.
For those in the brotherhood who have steadfastly defended past decisions by the administration and board to ignore athletic facility needs in favor of everything else, I hope you don't complain if/when we get turned down. A day of reckoning has been coming for a long time and frankly it's probably long overdue.
I talked to a friend of mine yesterday who is a D1 AD just coming back from Atlanta and was told that, as much as I wanted it to be different because of our recent successes and the great core coaching staffs in multiple sports, it would be a surprise if VU gets an invite to the MVC because of the poor facilities. I hope he is wrong. Told me that if he were at VU he would put a tremendous effort into improving the ARC. VU should do what Loyola did in a 6 month time frame and gut the basketball arena, don't even worry about increased seating, just do it now before all the conference realignment shakes out and perhaps that higher ranked conference could come calling in the near future.
Hopefully the great core of coaches is more important than the facilities at this point. Most of our athletic teams are doing fairly well and I would imagine that's the most important part of it. Hopefully they were able to show that they have plans and time frames for things to get done ASAP. Guess we'll see how things pan out in the coming weeks.
Would be a disappointment if we didn't get an invite... and we could definitely blame the facilities on that one.
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2013, 04:52:16 PMI'm sure that whoever represented Valpo conveyed how they have big plans for facility improvements in the future, but why would anyone believe them. Excuses and promises don't make for a very convincing presentation.
I think an effective response to a question like this could be made. One possible example would go something like this: "Over the last 20 years this University has said that it would build a Center for the Arts, a Library, a Student Union, an Arts & Sciences Building, a Welcome Center and an addition to the Engineering Building. Now all of these buildings are here, just like we said. So when we say that in X years projects Y and Z will be complete, you can rest assured that it will happen."
Quote from: ml2 on April 10, 2013, 11:54:48 PM
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2013, 04:52:16 PMI'm sure that whoever represented Valpo conveyed how they have big plans for facility improvements in the future, but why would anyone believe them. Excuses and promises don't make for a very convincing presentation.
I think an effective response to a question like this could be made. One possible example would go something like this: "Over the last 20 years this University has said that it would build a Center for the Arts, a Library, a Student Union, an Arts & Sciences Building, a Welcome Center and an addition to the Engineering Building. Now all of these buildings are here, just like we said. So when we say that in X years projects Y and Z will be complete, you can rest assured that it will happen."
Wonderful. So we can expect groundbreaking to take place on a majorly renovated basketball facility for the University's flagship sport no later than 2033? If facilities are an issue for MVC entrance, please tell me how this mentality helps us get into the MVC now.
Of course, I understand that this is a message board and that you are trying to formulate one hypothetical response to which many may be possible. I do appreciate your effort. However, keep in mind that your answer can also generate many hypothetical rebuttals. One such response might be that it fails to take into consideration that all of the aforementioned projects above were thought to be integral to VU from the beginning because they were largely academic in nature. Conversely, athletics on the other hand have largely been treated as ancillary. Your answer doesn't change that attitude.
Given this dynamic, I think it would be wise to at least consider the real possibility that there may be VU alumni who will say "eff it" to a request for future athletic donations if VU is specifically excluded from an MVC offer because of a lack of facilities this time around. For those alumni, the thought process you illustrated above might have died three capital campaigns ago since they have been begging for facility upgrades for the last 15 or so years. Just a thought.
"Eff it." Hopefully we can get a visit from the NCC. Then again facilities could be a problem. Check out Wittenberg's facilities. Nice,huh?
If the MVC wants a Chicagoland school, is it more important to them to have nice facilities but a terrible team or terrible facilities with a pretty good team? That's the main question. It all depends on what is more difficult. Is it harder to make a team good or do renovations to facilities?
I think people fail to remember Valpo is small both the city and the school. If we were to join we'd by far be one of the smallest schools in probably the smallest town as well. If Valpo had a population of 100,000 instead of 30,000 our facilities would be way larger, same for the student body. Instead of 3,000 undergrads we had 10,000 our facilities would be much larger.
Both Loyola and UIC have very nice facilities but terrible athletics. So, if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it does it still make a sound? That's how I view the athletic situation in UIC and Loyola, none of their teams have been in the national spot light any time recently, unlike Valpo who has had multiple athletic teams win the HL and move into the NCAA tournament, so the facilities at UIC and Loyola essentially go unnoticed... It's not like the facilities at UIC and Loyola helped draw fans to the games. From the games I saw their arenas were pretty much empty accept for the Brown & Gold in the stands.
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2013, 04:52:16 PMFor those in the brotherhood who have steadfastly defended past decisions by the administration and board to ignore athletic facility needs in favor of everything else, I hope you don't complain if/when we get turned down
Yeah, I'm one of those guys that WH mentions. I think a little perspective is needed here. At the time of our Sweet Sixteen run in 1998, VU was in...well, bad shape, if not crisis mode. Freshman enrollment had fallen from close to 1,000 in the 1970s and 1980s to as low as 534, a stunning 40%+ decrease. The average ACT scores of those kids who did come here had fallen. Fundraising efforts were being met with indifference. Our library and union were, frankly, eyesores and each year the admissions department would tell the administration of scores of parents and kids who would arrive for their campus visit and then were immediately turned off by these terrible facilities. If you had taken a aerial photo of the campus on the day that the team rolled back into town after beating Florida State to advance to the Sweet Sixteen, the campus would have looked the same -- with the exception of the Performing Arts Center -- as it did back in 1985. In other words, there had been one major building added to campus in the 13 years leading up to the Sweet Sixteen run. President Harre was faced with the daunting task of raising at least $75 million to build a new library and union -- a figure that was close to our entire endowment at the time. I should mention that I have been told that the only reason the Performing Arts facility was built beginning in 1992 was because Harre pleaded/cajoled/threatened the Board to make this happen.
So, yes, I think Harre and the Board made the right call back then to focus on the library and union (which together wound up costing over $100 million). There_simply_wasn't an extra $10 million or $15 million around to spend on athletic facilties. Tough decisions had to be made, and I think they made the right decisions. I will admit that I am completely mystified by the refusal of the current administration to spend $2 million on a new track since, from the day I saw the new Brown Field, I immediately thought the field looked, well, silly without a surrounding track. But the cost of a new track pales in comparison with the cost of a remodeled ARC and fieldhouse, which, as I've just spent some time pointing out, VU simply could not afford, and (wisely) chose not to go into debt to build.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on April 11, 2013, 08:35:36 AMSo, yes, I think Harre and the Board made the right call back then to focus on the library and union (which together wound up costing over $100 million). There_simply_wasn't an extra $10 million or $15 million around to spend on athletic facilties. Tough decisions had to be made, and I think they made the right decisions. I will admit that I am completely mystified by the refusal of the current administration to spend $2 million on a new track since, from the day I saw the new Brown Field, I immediately thought the field looked, well, silly without a surrounding track. But the cost of a new track pales in comparison with the cost of a remodeled ARC and fieldhouse, which, as I've just spent some time pointing out, VU simply could not afford, and (wisely) chose not to go into debt to build.
Paul
Couldn't agree with you more on that statement. I didn't choose to go to Valpo because of the athletics but because of the academics, which is by far the most important part of any university. I currently work in the library and from what I heard of the Moellering Library it was dump and same with the old union. Many of the academic buildings on campus are pretty new and have pretty modern equipment. I'm a geography major so I'm in the new Kallay-Christopher Hall which is very nice and much better than still being in the basement of Neils. I think much of the academics have been addressed and now I think it might be time to start addressing the athletics situation.
Don't know if anybody has posted this before and if so my apologies. The athletic department is adding folks and in addition to ml2, now have added an experienced major gift officer specific to athletics. Ifthey don't get something launched soon then there are other significant issues.
Here is his bio:
John Kuka joined Valparaiso University as an associate director of athletics in February of 2013. In his role at Valpo, Kuka is responsible for improving the Athletic Department's communication with core constituents, as well as the development of a new Athletics fundraising model.
Kuka came to Valparaiso from DePauw University, where he most recently served as Director of Athletics Development and Major Gifts Officer. In his role at DePauw in athletics development, Kuka was responsible for the overall administration of a campaign to secure more than $70 million in commitments to support DePauw athletics, and coordinated the solicitation of athletic gifts totaling more than $24 million in the first year of the campaign.
As DePauw's Major Gifts Officer, Kuka was esponsible for the active management of a portfolio consisting of prospective and current donors, establishing relationships in order to secure and steward gifts of $100,000 or more. Prior to stepping into that role, Kuka spent nearly five years working with DePauw's Annual Fund, including nearly three years as Director of the Annual Fund and Executive Director of the Washington C. DePauw Society. annual giving rose nearly 10% in his time as director of the annual fund, while Kuka also coordinated all activities of DePauw's leadership-level giving society and developed the DePauw Loyalty Society.
Prior to his time at DePauw, Kuka served from May 2004 through August 2006 as the Assistant Dean for Communication in the School of Journalism and Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Part of his duties at UNC included aiding in the solicitation of select gifts to the School.
Kuka earned his bachelor's degree in government and international studies from Notre Dame in 1998, and received his master's in mass communication from North Carolina in 2004. In addition, Kuka served in the United States Army from 1998 until 2000. Kuka is married to his wife, Katie, and the couple has three children: Jack (8), Maggie (6) and Moira (3).
If they start a campaign called, 'MVC facilities upgrade,' I would donate again. I usually just do the baseball program and Valpo Fund, but would be more than willing to donate again this year for such a campaign...
Quote from: classof2014 on April 11, 2013, 09:51:41 AMI currently work in the library and from what I heard of the Moellering Library it was dump and same with the old union.
I used to work in the library m'self, and it was, pretty much. At least in the basement with the Archives.
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
If Valpo does not get an invitation to join the MVC, it will most likely be due to our inferior (by comparison) athletic facilities. Some of us on this board have said repeatedly things like you can't have your cake and eat it too, we are living on borrowed time, the credit for our bb program goes strictly to the Drews who have succeeded despite the lack of support from the university to upgrade the ARC, etc. Athletic facility needs should have been planned for years ago and built piecemeal into various campus improvement initiatives over the years - but they weren't. So here we are when it comes time to put on a dog and pony show for MVC officials, trying to explain how we have a glorified high school gym for men's basketball (our glory sport), an NCAA sponsored inter-collegiate track and field program with no track facilities, a football field that (well, everyone knows the drill), while our competitors are proudly displaying their new this and modern that. Someone would actually have to lie to make a statement to the search committee that the university fully supports its athletic programs. I'm sure that whoever represented Valpo conveyed how they have big plans for facility improvements in the future, but why would anyone believe them. Excuses and promises don't make for a very convincing presentation.
For those in the brotherhood who have steadfastly defended past decisions by the administration and board to ignore athletic facility needs in favor of everything else, I hope you don't complain if/when we get turned down. A day of reckoning has been coming for a long time and frankly it's probably long overdue.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :cheers:
Quote from: vu72 on April 11, 2013, 10:04:45 AM
Don't know if anybody has posted this before and if so my apologies. The athletic department is adding folks and in addition to ml2, now have added an experienced major gift officer specific to athletics. Ifthey don't get something launched soon then there are other significant issues.
I have it on pretty good authority that individual coaches' fund raising activities going forward are being put on hold until these two put together a coordinated plan for the whole department. That's good from a planning standpoint I guess, but planning takes time and we're losing daylight and the hay ain't getting made. Short-term, it also stifles coaches' initiative and creates a chilling effect.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 11, 2013, 10:30:55 AM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 11, 2013, 09:51:41 AMI currently work in the library and from what I heard of the Moellering Library it was dump and same with the old union.
I used to work in the library m'self, and it was, pretty much. At least in the basement with the Archives.
The basement at Moellering was a perfect place to film one of those ghost hunting shows lol. It was creepy, and I don't get get creeped out much.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 11, 2013, 09:51:41 AM
I'm a geography major so I'm in the new Kallay-Christopher Hall which is very nice and much better than still being in the basement of Neils.
Geo-met was, I believe, in the basement of Mueller. (Where Homer's office, among other things, is now located. But it's had some upgrading in the meantime.)
It's Physics and Astronomy, alas, that's in the basement of Neils and has been since the building was constructed (or at least since it was finished).
Quote from: valpotx on April 11, 2013, 02:52:15 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 11, 2013, 10:30:55 AM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 11, 2013, 09:51:41 AMI currently work in the library and from what I heard of the Moellering Library it was dump and same with the old union.
I used to work in the library m'self, and it was, pretty much. At least in the basement with the Archives.
The basement at Moellering was a perfect place to film one of those ghost hunting shows lol. It was creepy, and I don't get get creeped out much.
Quote from: agibson on April 11, 2013, 06:17:12 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 11, 2013, 09:51:41 AM
I'm a geography major so I'm in the new Kallay-Christopher Hall which is very nice and much better than still being in the basement of Neils.
Geo-met was, I believe, in the basement of Mueller. (Where Homer's office, among other things, is now located. But it's had some upgrading in the meantime.)
It's Physics and Astronomy, alas, that's in the basement of Neils and has been since the building was constructed (or at least since it was finished).
:hijack:
Rumors are circulating at Loyola's athletic department that it is expecting to be invited to join the MVC. This coincides with today's naming of Sheryl Swoopes as its head women's basketball coach.
Quote from: valpopal on April 12, 2013, 06:39:49 PMThis coincides with today's naming of Sheryl Swoopes as its head women's basketball coach.
Wow!
I mean, her only coaching experience is apparently a stint as an assistant high school coach. But, wow!
I'll believe the Loyola rumor as much as I did UIC. Until it has something backing it, I don't care what a school's administration 'thinks' is assured. I just don't see the MVC adding a school that doesn't have baseball, unless Loyola is committing to do so in the future. I know that they are adding DBU for baseball only, but it just doesn't make sense to add an all sports team without your second best sport...
It's like competing against 2 poor performing co-workers for a position with another company and they beat you out because they're wearing fancy suits and shiny shoes paid for a rich daddy that you don't have. Never mind that they are 2 of the biggest underachievers your company has, or that they would have to completely reinvent themselves to make a positive impact on the other company.
LUC to the MVC?
http://www.ksdk.com/sports/article/375070/6/Loyola-Chicago-to-join-the-Missouri-Valley-Conference (http://www.ksdk.com/sports/article/375070/6/Loyola-Chicago-to-join-the-Missouri-Valley-Conference)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_loi9nbyVB51qmwdujo1_400.gif)
I'll wait for the big boy networks to confirm that Loyola was invited. It would be a dumb move by the MVC if they only invited Loyola, so I would have to think that if this is true, that they are going to have an additional 2 by end of month.
Again, this is similar to last year's HL rigmarole in that many felt it would take 3 good schools to replace the loss of one great one.
I'm sure you're right, Tx. The MVC couldn't sell "Loyola for Creighton, everybody!" any more than we could "Ladies and gentlemen, now batting for B----r, OAKLAND!!!"
Well...more smoke.
Evansville:
http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=4295 (http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=4295)
WHOI (Peoria):
https://twitter.com/hoijim/status/323158907377815552 (https://twitter.com/hoijim/status/323158907377815552)
In the latter, note that this seems to be the prelude to 12, not a singular action...
EDIT: I refuse to believe it until Jimmy the Panther says it's not going to happen :)
This is disappointing for a handful of reasons. Hopefully this rejection will get the administration's attention and encourage to move the timetable for athletic facility renovations forward. I wouldn't be shocked if the A-10 makes a move at a couple of the eastern HL schools in the event of any more defections in its ranks (read: SLU, Dayton).
On another note, Jim LeCrone needs to hit a homerun with any possible replacements. Oakland (or any other Summit school) will impress nobody. Ideal world is Murray State and Belmont, but I'm not sure why either school would want to make the jump. The OVC has better geography for them and has been consistently earning higher seeds recently (Butler excluded).
David Woods, Butler basketball reporter for the Indianapolis Star, is reporting in tweets that both UIC and Loyola will go to the MVC with the possibility of another addition to make the total in the conference an even 12:
"Horizon losing both Chicago schools" ... "Both to the Missouri Valley" ... "Who knows if MVC is done? Could add another for 12th member."
Who knows? ???
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 13, 2013, 05:11:54 PM
This is disappointing for a handful of reasons. Hopefully this rejection will get the administration's attention and encourage to move the timetable for athletic facility renovations forward.
Doubt it. Their attention is focused in other more spiritual directions. >:(
If Loyola is the only team going to the MVC I'll be SHOCKED!!! They suck! From what I read there's nothing saying valpo got rejected. Possibly, they could go to 12. Picking up Loyola makes no sense what-so-ever. Replacing a to 25 Creighton with a top 250 Loyola... Makes no sense. Still think the expansion to 12 is very possible.
It's probably going to be UIC/Loyola/ORU. The MVC appears to value potential versus proven results. UIC and Loyola have been terrible in the main revenue sport for a very long time. I still think that Belmont and Denver are too far outside their main region, and UMKC is just plain awful at everything they do. We don't have the facilities to improve our conference situation anytime in the near future unfortunately, regardless of winning sports programs
I still think Valpo has a better chance than UIC does. I see 6 public and 6 private. I think that's the route they're gonna go. Valpo, Loyola, and ORU all coming to the MVC. Evens it up at 6 and 6. Makes sense.
Here's what some of our "higher profile" posters are saying, unfortunately choosing not to contribute anything to this forum to say it (but that's a topic for another day):
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/323188992260575234
Well, if it is just Loyola from the HL, hopefully the administration does see that athletic facility improvements are necessary in order to increase Valpo's name recognition to get into one of the top mid-major conferences we aspire to be in. The other improvements around campus have been great and needed, so hopefully a new campaign starts soon to allow for a future move to the MVC. I don't see Wichita State staying around another few years, so there will be other openings in the future. Their administration has talked about adding football again for years, and the MWC would love to have them as a program.
Who would the HL be adding? Oakland seems like the most logical answer at the moment, and will get us to 6 baseball teams if UIC is not invited to the MVC. Do we look to the Dakotas? Though outside of the footprint, they aren't far enough away to ignore their various teams having success on a national level. It is a lot better option than the local teams of IPFW, IUPUI, etc. Murray State is not coming, and neither is Robert Morris or Belmont.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 13, 2013, 04:39:39 PMWell...more smoke.
At least these rumors come with expiration dates, more or less...
"will be announced as the its newest member at a news conference Friday"
Comment from a WSU poster (and I don't mean Wichita State):
If this is true I just hope the MVC stops at 10 and only adds Loyola. We could immediately add Oakland and have enough baseball teams to keep our automatic bid and be a stronger basketball conference just by swapping teams.
I agree with this assessment. Oakland's men's bb program has done extremely well in recent years, especially given all the recruiting disadvantages associated with being in the far NE corner of a low major conference that is spread out across a third of the country. Put them in the HL and they will be a top 3 or 4 program within 2 or 3 years, as opposed to perennial bottom-feeder Loyola. Obviously, the HL has more work to do than that, but it would be a great start. As mystified as I am about the MVC choosing Loyola, the plain truth is they are an RPI killing anchor whose contributions won't be missed.
Do you think the MVC left the baseball programs in place so as not to anger the HL too much and create a war between the conferences? Leaving the HL with 2 teams in and around Chicago and the MVC with one. Then if the HL gets Oakland it doesn't hurt the Summit League too bad and all leagues can continue to exist.
I would love to see the HL add Evansville now in addition to Oakland. If Evansville was in fact considering the HL before, nothing about adding Loyola to their conference line-up should change that interest. If anything, being in a league that will undoubtedly take a huge RPI (and conference reputation) hit from losing Creighton and "gaining" Loyola should make moving to the HL more attractive than ever.
Love to see Evansville Aces in the HL... Location is good and would think it is a great trade - Loyola for Evansville.
If the Horizon were to add Oakland and get rid of Loyola it'd be a great trade, the Horizon's reputation will be much better without Loyola and adding a good Oakland team. The only reason why people looked down upon them was because they were in the dreaded Summit League.
If the MVC only takes Loyola... WHAT A STUPID MOVE!!!!!! That's pretty much trading Creighton for a sack of basketballs! Honestly I see this as the MVC will be moving up to 12 and I do believe that includes Valpo and ORU. If not just WOW what a downgrade for the MVC when they had many other higher quality programs to choose from.
Honestly, I'd like to see one of two things happen to valpo: a) Go to the MVC or b) the Horizon picks up Oakland, anything less this off season would be a BIG disappointment in my opinion.
One conference's problem becomes another's "great opportunity":
2012-13
58 Valparaiso 15-3 25-7
64 Detroit 12-5 18-12
130 Wright St. 12-7 20-12
160 Wisc. Green Bay 12-7 17-15
169 Illinois-Chicago 8-10 16-15
188 Youngstown St. 8-10 14-15
199 Cleveland St. 5-12 11-18
222 Loyola (IL) 5-12 14-16
307 Wisc. Milwaukee 3-14 6-24
2011-12
85 Cleveland St. 12-7 21-10
95 Valparaiso 15-5 20-11
116 Butler 13-8 18-14
124 Wisc. Milwaukee 12-8 18-13
127 Detroit 15-7 20-13
149 Wisc. Green Bay 10-9 13-15
171 Youngstown St. 11-9 14-15
226 Wright St. 7-12 12-19
299 Illinois-Chicago 3-16 7-21
310 Loyola (IL) 1-18 6-23
2010-11
34 Butler 15-5 22-9
42 Cleveland St. 15-6 24-8
71 Valparaiso 14-7 21-11
92 Wisc. Milwaukee 14-6 19-13
124 Wright St. 11-9 17-14
143 Detroit 11-9 16-16
171 Wisc. Green Bay 8-11 13-18
197 Loyola (IL) 7-12 16-15
291 Illinois-Chicago 2-17 6-24
295 Youngstown St. 2-17 7-21
2009-10
12 Butler 20-0 28-4
80 Wright St. 13-7 20-12
107 Wisc. Green Bay 12-8 19-12
130 Wisc. Milwaukee 12-9 18-14
165 Cleveland St. 11-9 14-17
167 Detroit 11-10 19-14
186 Valparaiso 10-9 12-17
213 Loyola (IL) 5-14 12-16
271 Youngstown St. 2-17 6-22
291 Illinois-Chicago 3-16 7-22
2008-09
24 Butler 16-4 25-5
52 Cleveland St. 16-6 22-10
71 Wisc. Green Bay 13-6 21-9
93 Wright St. 14-7 20-13
134 Wisc. Milwaukee 12-8 15-14
166 Illinois-Chicago 8-12 15-15
214 Loyola (IL) 6-13 13-17
239 Youngstown St. 7-12 9-19
260 Valparaiso 5-14 7-22
281 Detroit 2-17 6-23
2007-08
17 Butler 18-2 30-4
65 Cleveland St. 13-7 19-13
84 Wright St. 13-7 21-10
101 Valparaiso 11-10 19-13
140 Illinois-Chicago 11-10 17-15
148 Wisc. Green Bay 9-10 15-15
180 Wisc. Milwaukee 9-10 13-16
221 Loyola (IL) 7-13 10-19
230 Youngstown St. 5-14 7-21
287 Detroit 3-16 6-23
Good luck MVC!
As with the other thread a few weeks ago where some of you put Loyola on blast, here we go again. I'm not sure I understand the sentiment. I had mentioned in the other thread that LUC would make perfect sense in the MVC. They were as good as an option in the Midwest for the MVC as any. The MVC public/private balance is fulfilled, their entrance provides the MVC with an historical name from a basketball program standpoint, and the MVC now has an inroad to a major market that lies within its geographical footprint. LUC has also committed millions of dollars to both athletic and student/academic upgrades recently, something that Valpo hasn't done. All of this makes past RPI irrelevant. Our facilities are garbage, which is why we needed the MVC to move to 12 to have any shot whatsoever.
With LUC's entrance, UE is not moving to the HL, IMO. My guess is that the MVC will stay at 10 and then wait to see what happens for a year or two since conference realignment is still fluid. We would have seen more smoke by now about a 12 team league if that was happening. I'm further guessing that the HL will look to both Oakland and Northern Kentucky as teams #9 and #10. In two years, we may be the only private school left in this league.
David Woods is the only journalist that is still saying that the MVC is adding UIC. Most say that UIC was passed over for Loyola. I don't see the MVC adding both. The only thing either school offers the MVC is their Chicago location. You don't need both schools to gain that. The MVC would be better served to wait until next year to see if they can add UD and SLU if/when they don't get invited to the NBE. If those schools are taken by the NBE the MVC could still add Oral Roberts and Valpo and add 2 quality programs. It just doesn't make sense to add 2 bad basketball programs now in UIC and Loyola just to gain the Chicago market.
As far the HL is concerned, I would gladly trade Loyola for Oakland now and consider it an upgrade. That would put us at 9 with enough baseball schools to keep our automatic bid. It would stop the HL bleeding and solidify us until we can make our next move.
Our next move needs to be one of the following:
1. LeCrone announces enough GOOD additions to the HL to get us to 10 or 12.
or
2. The HL fires LeCrone and hires someone who can achieve goal number 1. LeCrone has had enough time to get this done.
A friend who knows I am a Valpo fan e-mailed me the following stats and comments comparing the Valpo and Loyola basketball teams the last three years:
W-L Records:
Valpo 71-32
Loyola 33-54
RPI Average:
Valpo 81
Loyola 243
Average Attendance:
Valpo 3150
Loyola 2280
His conclusion: "If Loyola is selected by the MVC and Valpo is not, there are two main reasons. First, as in real estate, the most important factors are location, location, location: Loyola is in Chicago. Second, Loyola has displayed a willingness to commit to athletics and invest in their higher profile programs with a major renovation of their arena and the hiring of a high profile women's basketball coach, which should mean a stronger women's team. On the other hand, despite the success of its men's basketball team, Valpo has not shown any major investment in facilities for its highest profile program. Also, your women's program appears to be falling apart as players depart."
I didn't double-check his stats, but I can't argue much with the logic in his comments.
Do you know who has great access to large cities and the Chicago market? The Horizon League. If 'potential' sits around and doesn't do anything for 10-20 years, is it really potential anymore? I fall to see the logical argument that the MVC will grow a couple of bottom feeders into successful teams. If it's easy, why hasn't the Horizon able to do that? Does the MVC think the Horizon is incompetent for the mismanagement of the Chicago schools... and that they will turn the potential into results?
The MVC semi final games aren't even on TV. The championship game is on CBS, but obviously only two already strong programs benefit from that. The MVC has great programs from smaller cities and smaller schools. They've taken that model and transformed the MVC into the best mid major conference in the country. Now they want to ditch that model and play this 'potential' routine. I don't see it. I just don't see the exposure of the MVC taking Loyola or UIC to the next level.
...
I still won't believe any report until it's done. Too many anonymous sources floating around saying false information. If Belmont wanted into the MVC, I would be confused as to why the MVC takes UIC or Loyola in front of them. Same goes for ORU.
Quote from: a3uge on April 14, 2013, 11:22:55 AMI still won't believe any report until it's done. Too many anonymous sources floating around saying false information. If Belmont wanted into the MVC, I would be confused as to why the MVC takes UIC or Loyola in front of them. Same goes for ORU.
Exactly. I don't understand why the MVC wants to take struggling programs. This only has the potential to go horribly wrong, I can see a poor Loyola or UIC team struggling to win a single game in the much stronger MVC. And that will hurt the recruiting of those teams greatly. Who wants to go to a school that is struggling to win a game. Honestly, I see this as a terrible move for Loyola or UIC. I think they need to establish programs in the weaker Horizon before they look to jump into a bigger pond.
Valpo, Belmont, or ORU are much better choices for the MVC, all teams can compete at the MVC level. They all fit their demographics as well smaller schools, from a smaller town.
I think the MVC should go with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" model. By taking teams like Loyola or UIC, there is potential for disaster, because I can see either team struggling to win a single game. While going with good programs that fit your demographic, they'll competitive in the MVC and can only make the MVC stronger.
Quote from: a3uge on April 14, 2013, 11:22:55 AMDo you know who has great access to large cities and the Chicago market? The Horizon League. If 'potential' sits around and doesn't do anything for 10-20 years, is it really potential anymore? I fall to see the logical argument that the MVC will grow a couple of bottom feeders into successful teams. If it's easy, why hasn't the Horizon able to do that? Does the MVC think the Horizon is incompetent for the mismanagement of the Chicago schools... and that they will turn the potential into results? The MVC semi final games aren't even on TV. The championship game is on CBS, but obviously only two already strong programs benefit from that. The MVC has great programs from smaller cities and smaller schools. They've taken that model and transformed the MVC into the best mid major conference in the country. Now they want to ditch that model and play this 'potential' routine. I don't see it. I just don't see the exposure of the MVC taking Loyola or UIC to the next level. ... I still won't believe any report until it's done. Too many anonymous sources floating around saying false information. If Belmont wanted into the MVC, I would be confused as to why the MVC takes UIC or Loyola in front of them. Same goes for ORU.
that is actually incorrect, all the MVC tourney games are on TV. Even the Thursday night games are on TV, I know because I watched them in the dakotas. Fox Sports aired them. You're correct in that the final is on CBS, but they only show the first 37 minutes of the game, then cut away to a Big 10 game >:(
also, the MVC is only taking one school (it's official) for 2013, but that does not mean Valpo is out for 2014. Noone knows what else may happen. My guess is the MVC will wait to see what happens with SLU and Dayton and the new Big East, then assuming they go there, add a couple more schools in 2014? So no need to go full panic mode yet, there is still hope IMO
Which ISU are you a fan of? It seems like Illinois State fans hated the idea of adding Valpo, whereas Indiana State fans were a little more nice lol.
I feel less burned as a Valpo fan to see Loyola taken over us first, versus seeing UIC taken over us first. Loyola has shown great commitment to athletics facility improvements, but it still won't help their terrible programs to be in a stronger league. They still won't win the recruiting battles versus us in regards to men's basketball players, but they do have a very large endowment that can contribute to further enhancements of their programs. Hopefully the HL realizes that we really should add at least 2 teams ASAP, to get to 10 and travel partners. I really hope that both additions have baseball as well, to get us to 7 teams, in case UIC is invited for 2014.
Ok, I believe it now:
http://espn.go.com/chicago/college-sports/story/_/id/9170325/loyola-leaving-horizon-missouri-valley-conference-report (http://espn.go.com/chicago/college-sports/story/_/id/9170325/loyola-leaving-horizon-missouri-valley-conference-report)
Really surprised to see Loyola. Not the worst move for the Horizon, so long they can replace them with Oakland or similar team to Oakland. Guess the MVC wanted the Chicago market... so they took a terrible team. Terrible move on the behalf of the MVC in my opinion.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 14, 2013, 06:53:30 AMLUC has also committed millions of dollars to both athletic and student/academic upgrades recently, something that Valpo hasn't done.
How quickly we forget if we believe Valpo hasn't committed millions of dollars to athletic and student/academic upgrades. It's well above $100 million in the past decade or so: Christoper Center, Harre Union, Kallay-Duesenberg, Kade House, engineering addition, College of Arts & Sciences building, plus renovation of Meier for education. Go back 4-5 years more and add $8 million for renovation of Guild-Memorial. Obviously this doesn't help the athletics program as much as most of us would like, but the programt has benefited from construction of the Schrage wing, adding turf to Brown Field, construction of a softball stadium, improvements to baseball (club house, etc.), new tennis courts, new basketball floor, etc. Yes, we need a field house, improvements to the ARC and the long-awaited track, but let's not forget that we've made some progress. And, without looking up the figures, I doubt that Loyola has a larger endowment than Valpo as valpotx stated, although that probably has little bearing on athletics support in either case (although it obviously supports the overall institutional budget). Also, if no one has noted it by now, today's Chicago Tribunes says Loyola has confirmed that it will join the MVC next year. No mention of other teams.
When your main selling point is a women's college basketball coach who hasn't coached a game in her life, then you know it was a questionable move.
Great players don't always make great coaches anyways. Ask Forest Gregg, Bart Starr... See how Jordan is doing managing his team.
And finally, women's college basketball is irrelevant to conference switches. Loyola doesn't even have their own wikipedia page.
I ran some numbers on my calculator while watching the Masters, and I came up with the following.
If the MVC is replacing Creighton (rpi 23) with Loyola (rpi 218) rather than Valpo (rpi 58): in the past season that would have lowered the MVC average rpi from 117 to 137, which would drop the conference from 9th to 10th in the rpi rankings. With Valpo instead of Loyola the MVC would have an average rpi of 120 and remain in 9th place as a conference.
If the HL replaces Loyola (218) with Oakland (rpi 164), the conference rpi average the past year would have moved from 166 to 159. The Horizon League would remain in 12th place, but the gap between the HL and the MVC in rpi average would have diminished significantly from 49 to 22. If the HL could have miraculously added Belmont (rpi 19) as a 10th team, the HL rpi average would have changed to 145 (very close to the MVC with Loyola), and the league would have moved up to 11th in ranking just behind the MVC.
Briefly, the trade of Loyola for Oakland hurts the MVC strength and helps the HL.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 14, 2013, 01:39:54 PM
Really surprised to see Loyola. Not the worst move for the Horizon, so long they can replace them with Oakland or similar team to Oakland. Guess the MVC wanted the Chicago market... so they took a terrible team. Terrible move on the behalf of the MVC in my opinion.
Not really sure what all the hand-wringing is about. We are still in the Horizon League, which is leaps and bounds better than the Mid-Con, not only in terms of the level of competition, but also in terms of travel for our athletes. (Just ask the Loyola basketball teams next winter when they travel for a Tuesday night game to Wichita, Kansas.)
I think VU will, in the next several years, substantially upgrade the athletic facilities. The current administration has indicated this is a priority. I think they will follow through on this. Some parts of this plan are already in place, and some upgrades -- granted, small parts of the plan --have been completed. Maybe we will get us another look by the MVC in the years to come. Who knows, with this crazy and ultimately unjustifiable conference realignment nonsense going on.
I would challenge any school our size to come up with a comparable list of improvements/additions/new facilities over the past 10 years. I think this administration has big goals in mind for the next ten years, and athletics plays a major role in those plans. These things take time. It took ten years to bring the new union on line, from the first discussions on the board level until the doors were opened. Same with the library. But both projects eventually got done, and were done right. I am excited about the future for VU athletics, and five years from now I think we will all be very pleased with how our athletic facilties compare with other schools in both the Horizon and Missouri Valley conferences. If our ultimate goal is to join a conference that has a significant number of private schools of good academic quality -- and this, in my mind, would be the only reason to change conferences -- then perhaps we will be in a stronger position once the athletic improvements are in place. Until then, I am content to be competitive in a reputable conference.
Paul
Quote from: sliman on April 14, 2013, 01:52:33 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 14, 2013, 06:53:30 AMLUC has also committed millions of dollars to both athletic and student/academic upgrades recently, something that Valpo hasn't done.
How quickly we forget if we believe Valpo hasn't committed millions of dollars to athletic and student/academic upgrades. It's well above $100 million in the past decade or so: Christoper Center, Harre Union, Kallay-Duesenberg, Kade House, engineering addition, College of Arts & Sciences building, plus renovation of Meier for education. Go back 4-5 years more and add $8 million for renovation of Guild-Memorial. Obviously this doesn't help the athletics program as much as most of us would like, but the programt has benefited from construction of the Schrage wing, adding turf to Brown Field, construction of a softball stadium, improvements to baseball (club house, etc.), new tennis courts, new basketball floor, etc. Yes, we need a field house, improvements to the ARC and the long-awaited track, but let's not forget that we've made some progress. And, without looking up the figures, I doubt that Loyola has a larger endowment than Valpo as valpotx stated, although that probably has little bearing on athletics support in either case (although it obviously supports the overall institutional budget). Also, if no one has noted it by now, today's Chicago Tribunes says Loyola has confirmed that it will join the MVC next year. No mention of other teams.
Your post is perfect sliman. I am not trying to call you out at all so please do not take my comments the wrong way, but in my opinion the post embodies everything that is wrong with the mindset that revolves around the relationship between academics and athletics at Valparaiso University. It not only illustrates and demonstrates completely the ancillary back seat nature that athletics has taken at VU over the course of the past campaigns, but it also seeks to obtain recognition for the monetary effort put forth toward academic improvement in the context of an athletic discussion. The post is perfect.
No one is dismissing all of the academic infrastructural accomplishments on your list. The efforts put forth by the University however were not largely athletic, if at all. On the other hand, Loyola allocated (or is in the process of allocating) over $100M for both athletic
and academic/student upgrades through their most recent capital campaign. There is no question--no question at all that VU did not allocate significant dollars to both academics and athletics as Loyola has done recently. Perhaps if athletics wasn't seen as ancillary major ARC renovations would have been included with academic infrastructure. I would have liked to have seen that mix personally.
My hands aren't wringing at all. At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation. I look forward to the day.
Quote from: Big D on April 14, 2013, 10:15:12 AMOur next move needs to be one of the following:
1. LeCrone announces enough GOOD additions to the HL to get us to 10 or 12.
or
2. The HL fires LeCrone and hires someone who can achieve goal number 1. LeCrone has had enough time to get this done.
Exactly! In this day and age, waiting is the completely wrong thing to do. If LeCrone can't do this (and it appears he can not) then find someone who can.
Disagree completely. Where is Oakland going to go? It's not like they can move anywhere else. It appeared the HL targeted Belmont and Murray State and both aren't going anywhere. Should they aggressively fill the Horizon with IUPUI and IPFW? There's just not very many options out there to replace Butler. There's Belmont and Murray State and the rare chance an MVC team splits (Evansville). If Oakland was in the Horizon already would that make any other team in the Horizon want to stay instead of go to the MVC? No. So unless you have some magical solution for adding Belmont / Murray State that the MVC doesn't even know about, the criticism is just empty.
From the UIC board, a very well composed, rational response to the whole MVC/Loyola thing. I think it provides good food for thought:
The news appears to be in and the result is a big "so what??" No need to gnash any teeth over not being offered or such. Any report we saw gave the indication we were not LOOKING to leave the Horizon League in any event. We weren't seeking a new home at all. We just became a contestant in a contest run by the MVC to see if someone could meet their needs with a vacated spot.
It is Loyola.... It's not like that's a really big deal at all. If the MVC was looking for Chicago exposure they aren't going to get a lot at all..... The Trib reported the move in a space smaller than most classified ads inside. No story, no interviews, no nothing. Loyola people have complained about the same " lack of local coverage" we have over time. Loyola doesn't guarantee the MVC front page coverage or any sort of special treatment, at all. They are going to have to WIN games, often, which they haven't been able to sustain for a long time. I think it's a sad situation when you are looking for "opponents" fans to fill "your" stadium on game day. That's exposure???
Their basketball recent history has been quite dismal. They DO own an NCAA title, but well before most people here were born.... No relevance here except the MVC can put that on any marketing pieces they produce. Have they had one legit NCAA title won by current members? They have no baseball D1 baseball team, lack real media presence in Chicago but are the "private" school some here thought was important to the MVC for some unsubstantiated reasoning.
I am NOT disappointed, at all........ Why should we be?? We have an automatic berth in the NCAA Tournament by winning the Horizon league title, guaranteed. I think we all expect to be in the running for that on a regular basis. If we achieve that, which is very doable, we negate any reasons for even wanting to be considered in the MVC. Let's just concentrate on being the best we can be where we are and let the rest take care of itself. I'll bet we are more successful than Loyola over time right where we are.......
It's not that UIC didn't try hard enough or had some bad break or bad news "blow it" for us. None of that applies since WE weren't the instigators of the process. I don't care why the MVC chose Loyola at all. We ARE quite different and have many strengths they. and others, don't have but they obviously weren't what the MVC valued.....
I'm also not going to push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola... Why, to create the same furor that the MVC created with their search?? A knee jerk reaction is not necessary or warranted.....
Let's unbunch our panties, if any are, and focus on our school and seasons ahead..... And let the league office make policy and line up decisions for our benefit. If necessary.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm ready to move on.
Quote from: wh on April 14, 2013, 03:32:51 PM
My hands aren't wringing at all. At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation. I look forward to the day.
I also don't see any difference between the MVC and the Horizon. As 78crusader pointed out, Loyola will now face travel to Wichita, etc., while Valpo will continue to manage their budget by having a league that allows bus travel.
It hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but given all these facts, maybe Valpo wasn't snubbed ... maybe they told the MVC they weren't interested.
Quote from: wh on April 14, 2013, 04:49:39 PM
From the UIC board, a very well composed, rational response to the whole MVC/Loyola thing. I think it provides good food for thought:
The news appears to be in and the result is a big "so what??" No need to gnash any teeth over not being offered or such. Any report we saw gave the indication we were not LOOKING to leave the Horizon League in any event. We weren't seeking a new home at all. We just became a contestant in a contest run by the MVC to see if someone could meet their needs with a vacated spot.
It is Loyola.... It's not like that's a really big deal at all. If the MVC was looking for Chicago exposure they aren't going to get a lot at all..... The Trib reported the move in a space smaller than most classified ads inside. No story, no interviews, no nothing. Loyola people have complained about the same " lack of local coverage" we have over time. Loyola doesn't guarantee the MVC front page coverage or any sort of special treatment, at all. They are going to have to WIN games, often, which they haven't been able to sustain for a long time. I think it's a sad situation when you are looking for "opponents" fans to fill "your" stadium on game day. That's exposure???
Their basketball recent history has been quite dismal. They DO own an NCAA title, but well before most people here were born.... No relevance here except the MVC can put that on any marketing pieces they produce. Have they had one legit NCAA title won by current members? They have no baseball D1 baseball team, lack real media presence in Chicago but are the "private" school some here thought was important to the MVC for some unsubstantiated reasoning.
I am NOT disappointed, at all........ Why should we be?? We have an automatic berth in the NCAA Tournament by winning the Horizon league title, guaranteed. I think we all expect to be in the running for that on a regular basis. If we achieve that, which is very doable, we negate any reasons for even wanting to be considered in the MVC. Let's just concentrate on being the best we can be where we are and let the rest take care of itself. I'll bet we are more successful than Loyola over time right where we are.......
It's not that UIC didn't try hard enough or had some bad break or bad news "blow it" for us. None of that applies since WE weren't the instigators of the process. I don't care why the MVC chose Loyola at all. We ARE quite different and have many strengths they. and others, don't have but they obviously weren't what the MVC valued.....
I'm also not going to push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola... Why, to create the same furor that the MVC created with their search?? A knee jerk reaction is not necessary or warranted.....
Let's unbunch our panties, if any are, and focus on our school and seasons ahead..... And let the league office make policy and line up decisions for our benefit. If necessary.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm ready to move on.
We have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.
Just to cover all bases, if Loyola is jumping immediately, I presume they'll be paying a penalty like Butler did (also the teams who left the CAA early to jump to the A-10 last year -- it's all the rage these days)?
Quote from: EddieCabot on April 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PM
Quote from: wh on April 14, 2013, 03:32:51 PM
My hands aren't wringing at all. At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation. I look forward to the day.
I also don't see any difference between the MVC and the Horizon. As 78crusader pointed out, Loyola will now face travel to Wichita, etc., while Valpo will continue to manage their budget by having a league that allows bus travel.
It hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but given all these facts, maybe Valpo wasn't snubbed ... maybe they told the MVC they weren't interested.
There is a big difference- Average Attendance. MVC= 7512; HL= 2893.
My guess is that the MVC is estimating that the Chicago market will fill either UIC or Loyola arenas full of visiting (MVC) fans that live in Chicago.
That being said (even as a guess), UIC makes more sense because The Pavilion holds @ 7k and only sold 46% of capacity this year.
If this is the reason, then possible Loyola is finally willing to make a commitment to build a bigger arena.
Side Note: If we lost Butler/Loyola and replace them with Oakland- then LeCrone should be fired, unless all of the Presidents are as clueless as him.
http://horizonleague.org/blog/loyola-leads-mccafferty-trophy-standings-heading-into-spring-championships.html (http://horizonleague.org/blog/loyola-leads-mccafferty-trophy-standings-heading-into-spring-championships.html)
Loyola Leads McCafferty Trophy Standings Heading Into Spring Championships
Maybe there is a lot more potential then we thought. This board always poo-poos everything that goes against Valpo. Last week or even a couple days ago the MVC was the greatest thing on earth when it was perceived that Valpo would get an invite to the MVC. Now that it seems Valpo won't get an invite the MVC is no better than the HL. Please!!!!
Quote from: bbtds on April 14, 2013, 07:33:26 PM
Last week or even a couple days ago the MVC was the greatest thing on earth when it was perceived that Valpo would get an invite to the MVC. Now that it seems Valpo won't get an invite the MVC is no better than the HL. Please!!!!
If the MVC replaces the loss of Creighton with Loyola and the HL replaces Loyola with Oakland or a better team, then the MVC will be weakened and the HL strengthened. Therefore, the two leagues will not be the same as they were "last week or even a couple of days ago," and the separation between the MVC and the HL will be diminished quite a bit.
Ready and able sir... ;D
Quote from: isu87 on April 14, 2013, 12:13:38 PMMVC is only taking one school (it's official) for 2013
Source?
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 14, 2013, 06:42:20 PM
Just to cover all bases, if Loyola is jumping immediately, I presume they'll be paying a penalty like Butler did (also the teams who left the CAA early to jump to the A-10 last year -- it's all the rage these days)?
I don't know about championships. It seems a little mean spirited to cut them out of this year's.
But, they're presumably forfeiting their HL NCAA shares. (I wonder if they'll get any of the MVC historical shares?) And, there's now the $1M Horizon League exit fee, much more than what Butler had to pay.
Quote from: agibson on April 14, 2013, 08:49:35 PMQuote from: isu87 on April 14, 2013, 12:13:38 PMMVC is only taking one school (it's official) for 2013
Source?
"I think this is it for '13-'14. I think there's some interest in discussion expansion of the conference in the future, but at best, it's discussion at this point. No decisions have been made on that," Prettyman said.
[/size]
http://tribstar.com/breakingnews/x2094911505/Second-City-in-the-Valley-Loyola-joins-the-MVC (http://tribstar.com/breakingnews/x2094911505/Second-City-in-the-Valley-Loyola-joins-the-MVC)
now this isn't saying it's only going to be one, but it's not likely to be more than one. I am a grad of Indy State BTW. Still think Valpo will be in line in the future for the MVC.
For the MVC this isn't the best move, if they only go with one team and that team being Loyola the only thing they get is increased attendance at Loyola games... I can tell ya most of those fans aren't Loyola fans. If this is the only team they take, either this year or in the upcoming years this is a terrible move. Picking up a team that has been a bottom feeder in the Horizon League, which is nowhere near as strong as the MVC. If Loyola wins 3 games next season in the MVC I will consider it a success. Based on this I don't believe the MVC is done adding teams and won't be surprised if there is still expansion left for this season but there will definitely be an expansion next year. If not I don't understand the move... helps Loyola increase attendance and that's pretty much it.
The next scenario, which is the best for Valpo in my opinion is that they get included into the MVC in the next season along with ORU. I don't see this happen, but I've scene crazier things work out. For example, didn't see Loyola being the MVC first choice in teams to replace with a top-25 Creighton team. But if Valpo moves in with ORU, this will create 2 divisions, each having 3 public and 3 private schools in each. And a pretty easily divided East and West divisions. If this expansion doesn't happen this season it will happen next.
The next best scenario is, the Horizon League replacing a poor Loyola squad with a pretty decent Oakland squad. It's like saying I have 3 quarters and you have 1 five dollar bill, since I have 3 and you have 1, I'll trade you my three for your one and it'll all work out in the end.... Getting Oakland for Loyola will be a steal in my opinion at it'll strengthen the Horizon League pretty significantly.
The final scenario, is the worst case scenario. Which is the Horizon does jack with LeCrone's we'll see where the dominoes fall attitude. Teams don't just go to a league, the league has to go visit the school and convince them to leave. For Oakland this shouldn't be too hard but if you say you want them and don't act upon them. It gives Oakland a bad impression and they'll stay put in the Horizon. Obvious for Oakland the moves makes sense both academically and geographically. But if LeCrone's just sits on his a$$ all day and does jack about it then nothing will happen...
I have a fear that we might be in a 8 team Horizon League next season, and if we don't get out soon for a better league whether it be the MVC or elsewhere we'll be in deep trouble.
Quote from: sliman on April 14, 2013, 01:52:33 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 14, 2013, 06:53:30 AMLUC has also committed millions of dollars to both athletic and student/academic upgrades recently, something that Valpo hasn't done.
How quickly we forget if we believe Valpo hasn't committed millions of dollars to athletic and student/academic upgrades. It's well above $100 million in the past decade or so: Christoper Center, Harre Union, Kallay-Duesenberg, Kade House, engineering addition, College of Arts & Sciences building, plus renovation of Meier for education. Go back 4-5 years more and add $8 million for renovation of Guild-Memorial. Obviously this doesn't help the athletics program as much as most of us would like, but the programt has benefited from construction of the Schrage wing, adding turf to Brown Field, construction of a softball stadium, improvements to baseball (club house, etc.), new tennis courts, new basketball floor, etc. Yes, we need a field house, improvements to the ARC and the long-awaited track, but let's not forget that we've made some progress. And, without looking up the figures, I doubt that Loyola has a larger endowment than Valpo as valpotx stated, although that probably has little bearing on athletics support in either case (although it obviously supports the overall institutional budget). Also, if no one has noted it by now, today's Chicago Tribunes says Loyola has confirmed that it will join the MVC next year. No mention of other teams.
Before you say that someone is wrong, you should do your research, as it is a very large difference in LU's favor:
Loyola - $430 million in endowment as of 2013 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyola_University_Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyola_University_Chicago)
Valpo - $140 million in endowment as of 2010, and I remember reading somewhere that it has only gone up slightly - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso_University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso_University)
Quote from: wh on April 14, 2013, 04:49:39 PM
From the UIC board, a very well composed, rational response to the whole MVC/Loyola thing. I think it provides good food for thought:
The news appears to be in and the result is a big "so what??" No need to gnash any teeth over not being offered or such. Any report we saw gave the indication we were not LOOKING to leave the Horizon League in any event. We weren't seeking a new home at all. We just became a contestant in a contest run by the MVC to see if someone could meet their needs with a vacated spot.
It is Loyola.... It's not like that's a really big deal at all. If the MVC was looking for Chicago exposure they aren't going to get a lot at all..... The Trib reported the move in a space smaller than most classified ads inside. No story, no interviews, no nothing. Loyola people have complained about the same " lack of local coverage" we have over time. Loyola doesn't guarantee the MVC front page coverage or any sort of special treatment, at all. They are going to have to WIN games, often, which they haven't been able to sustain for a long time. I think it's a sad situation when you are looking for "opponents" fans to fill "your" stadium on game day. That's exposure???
Their basketball recent history has been quite dismal. They DO own an NCAA title, but well before most people here were born.... No relevance here except the MVC can put that on any marketing pieces they produce. Have they had one legit NCAA title won by current members? They have no baseball D1 baseball team, lack real media presence in Chicago but are the "private" school some here thought was important to the MVC for some unsubstantiated reasoning.
I am NOT disappointed, at all........ Why should we be?? We have an automatic berth in the NCAA Tournament by winning the Horizon league title, guaranteed. I think we all expect to be in the running for that on a regular basis. If we achieve that, which is very doable, we negate any reasons for even wanting to be considered in the MVC. Let's just concentrate on being the best we can be where we are and let the rest take care of itself. I'll bet we are more successful than Loyola over time right where we are.......
It's not that UIC didn't try hard enough or had some bad break or bad news "blow it" for us. None of that applies since WE weren't the instigators of the process. I don't care why the MVC chose Loyola at all. We ARE quite different and have many strengths they. and others, don't have but they obviously weren't what the MVC valued.....
I'm also not going to push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola... Why, to create the same furor that the MVC created with their search?? A knee jerk reaction is not necessary or warranted.....
Let's unbunch our panties, if any are, and focus on our school and seasons ahead..... And let the league office make policy and line up decisions for our benefit. If necessary.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm ready to move on.
It is a pretty rational post by the UIC fan...except the part where he/she mentions that they compete for the title each year :).
Also, I would have to imagine that Loyola's softball team will be excluded from the NCAA tournament in only giving 2 months notice before leaving the HL. That works to Valpo's favor, as they are a pretty good team.
Quote from: motowntitan on April 14, 2013, 07:29:19 PM
Quote from: EddieCabot on April 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PM
Quote from: wh on April 14, 2013, 03:32:51 PM
My hands aren't wringing at all. At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation. I look forward to the day.
I also don't see any difference between the MVC and the Horizon. As 78crusader pointed out, Loyola will now face travel to Wichita, etc., while Valpo will continue to manage their budget by having a league that allows bus travel.
It hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but given all these facts, maybe Valpo wasn't snubbed ... maybe they told the MVC they weren't interested.
Side Note: If we lost Butler/Loyola and replace them with Oakland- then LeCrone should be fired, unless all of the Presidents are as clueless as him.
So stay at 8? What schools do you expect him to add that are better than Oakland? If Belmont and Murray State don't want to leave the OVC then fire the commissioner. Okay.
We have people saying LeCrone should be fired for not acting aggressive enough to replace Butler.... But if he replaces them with one of the three schools in a lower rpi conference with a decent rpi (with it fitting geographically), it's still not good enough. Seriously name the schools that he should replace Butler with. If it's staying at 8, argue that staying at 8 is in the best interest of the HL. If it's to add Belmont/Murray State, argue that. If it's to add Davidson, argue geography is irrelevant. Just don't throw stones and pretend there's a dozen schools out there that fit somewhat close geographically and are decent programs in bad conferences. There's not.
----
Everyone just needs to examine the Midwest conferences as they are right now.
Mac - football based. They will make decisions based on football. Not ever going to poach from them. YSU could leave for them.
MVC - best mid major conference in the country. Even without creighton. No school is going to leave for the HL. If Wichita State leaves, still doubt anyone would go. Their weakest program was rumored to want out, but I just don't see it.
Summit - We will be in position to poach their best schools if they fit geographically for years to come. As long as the schools are so sprawled, no HL team is going to leave for them.
OVC - logical grounds to poach from, but could be a stretch geographically. Belmont and Murray State haven't shown signs of wanting to move. I don't blame Belmont for staying put - why pay a large exit fee two years in a row to play teams all the way in green Bay... It's probably a hard sell for them.
A10 - no Butler and likely no Slu or Dayton in the future, the A10 will probably stay out of the Midwest. The landing spot for these schools would be the MVC. Would be extremely difficult to land any of these schools.
Quote from: wh on April 13, 2013, 10:00:51 PMIf anything, being in a league that will undoubtedly take a huge RPI (and conference reputation) hit from losing Creighton and "gaining" Loyola should make moving to the HL more attractive than ever.
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/87986_habG5l5uoBfQvqY.jpg)
Quote from: Big D on April 14, 2013, 10:15:12 AMOur next move needs to be one of the following:
1. LeCrone announces enough GOOD additions to the HL to get us to 10 or 12.
or
2. The HL fires LeCrone and hires someone who can achieve goal number 1. LeCrone has had enough time to get this done.
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/87985_wU2iuzwtNGFCYBw.jpg)
Quote from: a3uge on April 14, 2013, 02:09:41 PMWhen your main selling point is a women's college basketball coach who hasn't coached a game in her life, then you know it was a questionable move.
Great players don't always make great coaches anyways. Ask Forest Gregg, Bart Starr... See how Jordan is doing managing his team.
And finally, women's college basketball is irrelevant to conference switches. Loyola doesn't even have their own wikipedia page.
Great. Post. Amen.
Quote from: valpopal on April 14, 2013, 02:32:28 PMBriefly, the trade of Loyola for Oakland hurts the MVC strength and helps the HL.
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/87989_mIfTDVBnvxmiBZ8.jpg)
Quote from: 78crusader on April 14, 2013, 03:06:32 PMNot really sure what all the hand-wringing is about. We are still in the Horizon League, which is leaps and bounds better than the Mid-Con, not only in terms of the level of competition, but also in terms of travel for our athletes.
This is like my favorite post of yours like ever.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 14, 2013, 03:29:47 PMPerhaps if athletics wasn't seen as ancillary major ARC renovations would have been included with academic infrastructure.
I am not trying to call
you out at all so please do not take my comments the wrong way, but I think as fun as they are athletics
have to be ancillary to the idea of a university, or else Paris, Oxford, the Gregorian, et al. are only equivocally "universities".
Quote from: valpotx on April 14, 2013, 09:37:35 PMValpo - $140 million in endowment as of 2010, and I remember reading somewhere that it has only gone up slightly
2011--$164 million...if 17.1% return in a year is "only slightly" I have some money I'd like you to invest...(but yes they're more well-endowed.)
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/valparaiso-university-1842 (http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/valparaiso-university-1842)
Quote from: a3uge on April 14, 2013, 11:10:18 PMEveryone just needs to examine the Midwest conferences as they are right now.
Also a great post. There are a limited amount of neighborhoods to which we CAN move, let alone WANT to, and the grass isn't always greener.
Quote from: a3uge on April 14, 2013, 11:10:18 PMSo stay at 8?
You do realize we can't stay at 8. We only have 5 baseball playing schools we have to get back to at least six. I guess we can add NJIT as a baseball only. Wasn't it the league office that was placing a timetable on additions, i.e. setting up expectations.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 15, 2013, 07:46:54 AMWe are still in the Horizon League, which is leaps and bounds better than the Mid-Con
With the exception of Detroit isn't the Horizon the Mid-Con?
Quote from: bbtds on April 14, 2013, 07:33:26 PM
This board always poo-poos everything that goes against Valpo. Last week or even a couple days ago the MVC was the greatest thing on earth when it was perceived that Valpo would get an invite to the MVC. Now that it seems Valpo won't get an invite the MVC is no better than the HL. Please!!!!
To my knowledge this is the first time in all of this realignment frenzy that a conference has chosen to add a new member based on location over proven, sustained performance in either men's basketball or men's football, whichever the conference is seeking to enhance. In fact, conferences have gone way out of their footprint just to get the best available programs. It doesn't make the MVC decision wrong, but this "unique" approach is naturally puzzling to outside observers. Everyone recognized that the MVC was going to take a hit when its best program left, regardless of who they added. The strange part is that they are willfully taking a bigger hit (at least in the short term) than they would have had to. Supposedly, they are taking some sort of a long view over several more obvious short term solutions. Only time will tell whether this is strategic genius or a major strategic blunder.
At least for the time being the MVC-Creighton+Loyola is not the same conference it was a week ago, and in all likelihood it won't be the same a year from now (from a basketball image standpoint) as it is today. It has opened itself up for this kind of criticism in the short run by this seemingly risky choice. The MVC commissioner has stuck his neck out there about as far as it can go with this decision, and it will be all up to a school with bad track record to come through for him, without any control or authority to make it happen. A very high risk strategy, to say the least.
Hearing now that Davidson is going to the A-10 (different string) and listening to the previous discussions, I lament the fact that, apparently, due to (1) not being directly smack dab in the middle of the City of Chicago market and (2) less than adequate facilities, Valpo, while being on the periphery of conference upgrade discussions (as in "also mentioned"), is not a predominant player in the conversation. Performance-wise these last three years, it certainly should have been. It's too bad that subpar facilities (compared to the Gentile Arena and the Norville Center) preclude us from being attractive. Had we comparable facilities, it would have been nice to at least been given serious consideration and, maybe, even having the opportunity to accept or reject a move to the MVC.
I do concur with some that, if Oakland and the alphabet schools are the replacements for Butler and Loyola, that we are back to the old Mid-Con days (with a little less travel). It just appears that the deafening silence from the HL office is telling.
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 15, 2013, 08:05:26 AMWith the exception of Detroit isn't the Horizon the Mid-Con?
while you're not quoting me, but rather quoting me quoting someone else, i can see how one might get confused.
regardless, as I was quoting it approvingly, what you're saying is "With the exception of Ringo Starr, aren't the Beatles the Quarrymen?"
Just because things are similar doesn't mean they are the same.
Just ask Pete Best. ;)
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 15, 2013, 08:05:26 AMYou do realize we can't stay at 8.
Also, not jumping on you again, but you are attacking a3uge for supposedly holding a position he was in fact attacking.
Still wouldn't be surprised if something is announced by Valpo this summer after the softball/baseball seasons are over. Chances are if Valpo were to announce them leaving this would jeopardize both of their seasons. Although this might be more painful to sit through and play the waiting game, it is the most logical choice in order to give the seniors a chance to capture another HL title and an NCAA tournament birth.
So far nothing that I have read says this is going to be the only move by the MVC this summer, I have not heard of them rejecting Valpo, all that we have heard is that Loyola has accepted an offer from the MVC, nothing more and nothing less. Still wouldn't be surprised to hear of more changes in the future.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 15, 2013, 09:56:27 AM
Hearing now that Davidson is going to the A-10 (different string) and listening to the previous discussions, I lament the fact that, apparently, due to (1) not being directly smack dab in the middle of the City of Chicago market and (2) less than adequate facilities, Valpo, while being on the periphery of conference upgrade discussions (as in "also mentioned"), is not a predominant player in the conversation. Performance-wise these last three years, it certainly should have been. It's too bad that subpar facilities (compared to the Gentile Arena and the Norville Center) preclude us from being attractive. Had we comparable facilities, it would have been nice to at least been given serious consideration and, maybe, even having the opportunity to accept or reject a move to the MVC.
I do concur with some that, if Oakland and the alphabet schools are the replacements for Butler and Loyola, that we are back to the old Mid-Con days (with a little less travel). It just appears that the deafening silence from the HL office is telling.
This seems odd to me. So the Gentile Center, with 1000 fewer seats than the ARC makes them more attractive? Does more comfortable seating. better bathrooms and better hotdog stands really make the difference? We know that schools in the A-10 have worse arenas so it has to be more than just the ARC. Picking Loyola because of the Gentile Center versus their very bad record is just mystifying to me.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 15, 2013, 12:14:45 PM
So far nothing that I have read says this is going to be the only move by the MVC this summer, I have not heard of them rejecting Valpo, all that we have heard is that Loyola has accepted an offer from the MVC, nothing more and nothing less. Still wouldn't be surprised to hear of more changes in the future.
Indiana State Director of Athletics Ron Prettyman Gives Details:
Prettyman said the MVC presidents voted to approve Loyola on Friday morning. Prettyman was unaware of what the vote breakdown was, but to secure admission to the league, at least seven of the nine MVC schools had to vote for Loyola.
Efforts to reach MVC commissioner Doug Elgin were unsuccessful.
There has been media speculation that Loyola's Horizon League Chicago cohorts — Illinois-Chicago — could be joining the MVC with the Ramblers.
"I think this is it for '13-'14. I think there's some interest in discussing expansion of the conference in the future, but at best, it's discussion at this point. No decisions have been made on that," Prettyman said.
http://tribstar.com/collegesports/x2094911505/Second-City-in-the-Valley-Loyola-joins-the-MVC (http://tribstar.com/collegesports/x2094911505/Second-City-in-the-Valley-Loyola-joins-the-MVC)
Quote from: vu72 on April 15, 2013, 12:35:06 PM
This seems odd to me. So the Gentile Center, with 1000 fewer seats than the ARC makes them more attractive? Does more comfortable seating. better bathrooms and better hotdog stands really make the difference? We know that schools in the A-10 have worse arenas so it has to be more than just the ARC. Picking Loyola because of the Gentile Center versus their very bad record is just mystifying to me.
It may be the combination of both facilities. Both are 'new' and sparkling - quite impressive. But I agree, it had to be more than facilities and the Chicago market (heck, the drive for Chicago MVC alums is, what, maybe 50 miles to Valpo? Plus the parking is not expensive). Could it be the much larger enrollment that matches up better with all the other MVC schools except E'Ville? BTW in losing Creighton, the MVC lost it's biggest arena (18.3K) and replaced it with its now smallest (4.4K). The next smallest is NIowaU at 6.6K.
So to summarize, the MVC gets:The smallest venue in the conference by 2.2K seats
The "new" worst RPI (LUC 2013 RPI was 222; the lowest in MVC in 2013 was 203 -- PLUS they lost Creighton's 24)
No baseball team
I guess that makes sense :crazy:
It almost looks like Loyola could be a compromise from the public schools to the private ones. I imagine that the private schools are pushing for more like-minded institutions, but the public schools want someone that is well funded and committed to athletics investment. They get a 15,000 student population, and $430 million endowment. I believe that Bradley, Evansville, and Drake are all between 3,000-6,000 students, while the public schools are around Loyola's population. Notice that Loyola is already added on Wiki as a future member.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference)
I don't understand this at all! One of the articles acclaimed to Loyola's winning tradition??? 4 seasons with +.500 records since their last NCAA tourney bid all the way back in 1985!!!!! That is pathetic! One of the worst basketball programs in the country during that time span. To compare Loyola with UIC in that time span UIC has had 14 winning seasons, 3 NCAA births, and 1 NIT. Compare that to Valpo's 17 winning seasons, 8 NCAA tourney bids, and 2 NIT bids. Don't understand how LU was the better choice.
Maybe it was all a big misunderstanding... Maybe the voted for VU and wrote VU and the V looked like an L so it looked like LU... So Loyola thinks they're in.... just sayin'
You, who put down the MVC, know this is what Valpo needed.
Men's basketball attendance
2012–2013 Average Men's Basketball Conference Attendance
Wichita State 10,398
Bradley 7,595
Illinois State 7,260
Missouri State 6,372
Indiana State 6,149
Southern Illinois 5,137
Evansville 5,025
Northern Iowa 4,814
Drake 4,488
The Valley is well known for having some of the most dedicated fanbases in all of college basketball, with several members regularly selling out their large arenas on a nightly basis throughout the year. One member (Wichita State) sold out every single game for the 2006–07 season.
In 2010–11, the Valley maintained its position as the eighth ranked conference in average attendance.[13]
The Valley made history in March 2007 with record attendance for four days at St. Louis' Scottrade Center as 85,074 fans turned out to watch the five sessions of the tournament. The two sellout crowds of 22,612 for the semifinals and final of the 2007 State Farm Tournament set an all-time attendance record for basketball at the arena and also gave The Valley the distinction of having the largest championship crowd for any of the 30 NCAA conference tournaments in 2007.[14]
You also know why Valpo has blown this opportunity. It is making promises instead of actually building what it needed to build. The ring around the football field symbolizes everything that went wrong for Valpo. I suggest that students start running around the football field and pretend there is a track there and pretend they are playing in the MVC.
The biggest disappointment is that the dedication of Bryce Drew and Homer Drew toward Valpo could have brought Valpo into a conference that excels at the sport that Valpo excels at, has been wasted. A move to the MVC would have brought Valpo the enrollment numbers the board and president wanted much sooner. But that is not the way this board and president wanted to get those numbers. It's a sad truth. We even heard those same promises from one of our own who is affiliated with the athletic department. Well, the MVC people who don't make those promises and actually put people in seats and help their universities excel in other areas didn't believe those promises and yes, it truly hurts. A real missed opportunity.
I wouldn't blame our current President at all. It would be on the previous administration in my view. How long has Heckler been at VU now, 6-7 years? He has done great so far, and I only see it getting better. We lost many years of possible athletic growth under Harre/Steinbrecher, as they did not see the academic value in having a strong national profile in athletics...
I hope everyone appreciates the general principle that you can't build what you can't afford to build. I have no idea how that applies to VU's situation, but one of the ways in which the playing field is not level in NCAA Division I athletics is that some can afford to build new stadiums/facilities/etc. seemingly at the drop of the hat while others have to spend years hoping to acquire the funds for it.
I find the Darwinism of college athletics very depressing. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and you are applauded/jeered more based on how much money you have to spend than on your stewardship of what you do have to spend.
:(
Quote from: valpotx on April 15, 2013, 03:20:24 PM
I wouldn't blame our current President at all. It would be on the previous administration in my view. How long has Heckler been at VU now, 6-7 years? He has done great so far, and I only see it getting better. We lost many years of possible athletic growth under Harre/Steinbrecher, as they did not see the academic value in having a strong national profile in athletics...
Yes, but Harre didn't have the enrollment goal. What has Heckler (and more importantly the board of directors) actually done, in their last 6-7 years or whatever it is, to build anything significantly for athletics? They have only made promises.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 15, 2013, 03:28:59 PM
I hope everyone appreciates the general principle that you can't build what you can't afford to build. I have no idea how that applies to VU's situation, but one of the ways in which the playing field is not level in NCAA Division I athletics is that some can afford to build new stadiums/facilities/etc. seemingly at the drop of the hat while others have to spend years hoping to acquire the funds for it.
I find the Darwinism of college athletics very depressing. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and you are applauded/jeered more based on how much money you have to spend than on your stewardship of what you do have to spend.
:(
They have started a Welcome Center. They have started no new buildings for athletics. As was stated earlier, Loyola built for academics and other fields along with athletics. Valpo has built no new buildings for athletics. Those decisions were made by the board of directors and the president. The money was there and decisions were made for the money that was there.
Academic buildings: Harre Union, Christopher Library (call it what you want), Gellersen addition, Meteorology addition to Schnabel
Athletics: softball field-minimum needed to keep a softball team
There was money for this and decisions were made for that money. Opportunity was lost.
What buildings do you want to see when you find yourself on a university campus?
You guys keep having a hard time with this because until now all these conference to conference moves have been merit based. Anyone other than a blind Loyola loyalist knows that Loyola has done nothing to merit consideration for a move to the MVC (or anywhere else) based on athletic achievement. This is all about location, and nothing more. Loyola is simply the warm body that comes closest to "fitting the uniform" - in this case "the uniform" being access to the Chicago market by adding a private school in the area. As I indicated earlier, this is a heck of a roll of the dice by their commissioner. It will be interesting to see how it works out.
Quote from: bbtds on April 15, 2013, 03:36:38 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 15, 2013, 03:28:59 PM
I hope everyone appreciates the general principle that you can't build what you can't afford to build. I have no idea how that applies to VU's situation, but one of the ways in which the playing field is not level in NCAA Division I athletics is that some can afford to build new stadiums/facilities/etc. seemingly at the drop of the hat while others have to spend years hoping to acquire the funds for it.
I find the Darwinism of college athletics very depressing. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and you are applauded/jeered more based on how much money you have to spend than on your stewardship of what you do have to spend.
:(
They have started a Welcome Center. They have started no new buildings for athletics. As was stated earlier, Loyola built for academics and other fields along with athletics. Valpo has built no new buildings for athletics. Those decisions were made by the board of directors and the president. The money was there and decisions were made for the money that was there.
And for all we know, that money was spent appropriately. Do you want non-athletic spending marginalized in favor of almighty sports? Did they have enough money to do both?
I'm only asking these questions because there's a lot missing, analytically, from this discussion. Not being a well-informed insider, and not living in the area, I can't really jump on board with the bashing the VU administration for not improving the ARC. I have no idea how necessary the Welcome Center was, but I think *all* aspects of a university have a fair claim on resources for improvement.
Quote from: bbtds on April 15, 2013, 03:36:38 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 15, 2013, 03:28:59 PM
I hope everyone appreciates the general principle that you can't build what you can't afford to build. I have no idea how that applies to VU's situation, but one of the ways in which the playing field is not level in NCAA Division I athletics is that some can afford to build new stadiums/facilities/etc. seemingly at the drop of the hat while others have to spend years hoping to acquire the funds for it.
I find the Darwinism of college athletics very depressing. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and you are applauded/jeered more based on how much money you have to spend than on your stewardship of what you do have to spend.
:(
They have started a Welcome Center. They have started no new buildings for athletics. As was stated earlier, Loyola built for academics and other fields along with athletics. Valpo has built no new buildings for athletics. Those decisions were made by the board of directors and the president. The money was there and decisions were made for the money that was there.
Academic buildings: Harre Union, Christopher Library (call it what you want), Gellersen addition, Meteorology addition to Schnabel
Athletics: softball field-minimum needed to keep a softball team
There was money for this and decisions were made for that money. Opportunity was lost.
What buildings do you want to see when you find yourself on a university campus?
Some perspective please! First President Heckler has not been here 6 or 7 years, he came in 2008. Second, the largest campaign in the history of Lutheranism in higher education ($238 million) was concluded in 2009. Since then we have built a new fitness center, the Heritage Hall project, the new Arts and Sciences building and the Welcome Center and the Engineering addition plus a major rehab of the Chapel.
Here's the biggest perspective part: Donor burnout. Anybody in higher education will tell you that you can't run one major drive right on top of another. We are now into the fourth year since the end of the 2009 campaign. My guess is that the time is drawing near for another but it couldn't/wouldn't have worked anytime sooner. Now, remember that the stock market took its second biggest drop in history during 2008/2009 so people also haven't been too excited about giving money away.
We only have so many millionaires in the mix. The Welcome Center was one donor. The Chapel renovation was one donor who happened to be the largest donor on the Union as well. Not sure, but these folks probably need a break or perhaps have no interest in athletics. Don Fites gave the money for the Engineering building. He is an engineering grad. We need to match wealthy donors with athletics. At an academically focused/religious school like Valpo, it just makes sense that academic giving would be a greater focus.
Now for the final perspective: The idea that the administration has done nothing to enhance the athletic scene is very wrong and here's why: The acquisition of Porter Hospital. This was completed in 2011. It has taken time to finish the new hospital and now to remove bad stuff before it can be torn down. Miller has been torn down which also needed to be done before the athletic complex can be built. The ARC renovations can't be done until the Fieldhouse is done. Where in the world would all the athletes and coaches go if the ARC was out of comission?
It's timing people, that's it. The time for a major new drive is approaching--it's not here. The hospital needs to be torn down--it hasn't happened yet. It will all fall into place and soon.
Quote from: wh on April 15, 2013, 03:40:57 PM
You guys keep having a hard time with this because until now all these conference to conference moves have been merit based. Anyone other than a blind Loyola loyalist knows that Loyola has done nothing to merit consideration for a move to the MVC (or anywhere else) based on athletic achievement. This is all about location, and nothing more. Loyola is simply the warm body that comes closest to "fitting the uniform" - in this case "the uniform" being access to the Chicago market by adding a private school in the area. As I indicated earlier, this is a heck of a roll of the dice by their commissioner. It will be interesting to see how it works out.
Hit the nail on the head with this one!!!
Commissioner Elgin wanted the Chicago market and Loyola fit the bill based on their demographics. Put Valpo on the Gold Coast of Chicago and I can guarantee that we would have been chosen for the MVC, it has nothing to do with the facilities. The ARC works just fine, yes it's old and dingy but we draw pretty well for our games, the fitness centers are old but have state-of-the-art equipment; the building might not look the prettiest but as long as the equipment is there, that's all that truly matters. We also had the winning tradition to boot, 3 straight 20+ win seasons, compared to Loyola's 20+ wins in three full seasons. Yes, I think it's dumb move on their behalf, getting a team that has only had 4 winning seasons in the last 25 years. If you move Loyola out to a fringe suburb, like Woodstock, IL which is similar size and distance from Chicago to Valpo, it would have probably been UIC instead. For Elgin it was all about the LOCATION, that's why he considered UMKC because it was in KC.
I think if the Horizon can get rid of a bottom feeder, like Loyola who has shown no signs of improvements, for a better team it was a good deal for Valpo. Yes, it sucks that Valpo probably isn't gonna go to the MVC, hopefully LeCrone can get Oakland to agree to come to the HL an and this will work out better on Valpo's behalf. Not the best-case-scenario for Valpo, so long they can get an Oaklandesque team or somehow go to the MVC this summer. So long as it is not the worst-case-scenario I will be content.
Quote from: wh on April 15, 2013, 03:40:57 PM
You guys keep having a hard time with this because until now all these conference to conference moves have been merit based. Anyone other than a blind Loyola loyalist knows that Loyola has done nothing to merit consideration for a move to the MVC (or anywhere else) based on athletic achievement. This is all about location, and nothing more. Loyola is simply the warm body that comes closest to "fitting the uniform" - in this case "the uniform" being access to the Chicago market by adding a private school in the area. As I indicated earlier, this is a heck of a roll of the dice by their commissioner. It will be interesting to see how it works out.
Stop. If football drives the big boy bus at the big boy conference table, what did Rutgers do recently to warrant entry into the Big 10? What did Utah State or San Jose State do recently to warrant entry into the MWC? What has Idaho done to warrant entry into the Sun Belt? Would you call these upward conference changes by these schools as being athletically merited based moves? I sure wouldn't. Loyola is not the anomaly that you make them out to be.
And for the record, I'm not having a hard time with this at all. Is it disappointing? Sure. But I knew it was going to take a miracle given our lousy facilities. 12 was the magic number for Valpo, not 10. Maybe if we would have invested significant dollars in both academics/student facilities
and athletics like Loyola did over the last one...no, I mean two...no, I mean three capital campaigns, the end result might have been different for VU.
Has FITT been abandoned yet? If facilities were the cause for VU's non-entrance to the MVC, I would hope that FITT is scrapped in its entirety for something more workable. Clearly that campaign didn't work to gain entry into the MVC.
Thank you, vu72.
Finally, a comprehensive picture of what is going on. I invite those who disagree with that picture to respond in kind. This is the kind of thing that helps people like me figure out how I feel about what is going on.
Quote from: vu72 on April 15, 2013, 04:51:13 PM
Quote from: bbtds on April 15, 2013, 03:36:38 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 15, 2013, 03:28:59 PM
I hope everyone appreciates the general principle that you can't build what you can't afford to build. I have no idea how that applies to VU's situation, but one of the ways in which the playing field is not level in NCAA Division I athletics is that some can afford to build new stadiums/facilities/etc. seemingly at the drop of the hat while others have to spend years hoping to acquire the funds for it.
I find the Darwinism of college athletics very depressing. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and you are applauded/jeered more based on how much money you have to spend than on your stewardship of what you do have to spend.
:(
They have started a Welcome Center. They have started no new buildings for athletics. As was stated earlier, Loyola built for academics and other fields along with athletics. Valpo has built no new buildings for athletics. Those decisions were made by the board of directors and the president. The money was there and decisions were made for the money that was there.
Academic buildings: Harre Union, Christopher Library (call it what you want), Gellersen addition, Meteorology addition to Schnabel
Athletics: softball field-minimum needed to keep a softball team
There was money for this and decisions were made for that money. Opportunity was lost.
What buildings do you want to see when you find yourself on a university campus?
Some perspective please! First President Heckler has not been here 6 or 7 years, he came in 2008. Second, the largest campaign in the history of Lutheranism in higher education ($238 million) was concluded in 2009. Since then we have built a new fitness center, the Heritage Hall project, the new Arts and Sciences building and the Welcome Center and the Engineering addition plus a major rehab of the Chapel.
Here's the biggest perspective part: Donor burnout. Anybody in higher education will tell you that you can't run one major drive right on top of another. We are now into the fourth year since the end of the 2009 campaign. My guess is that the time is drawing near for another but it couldn't/wouldn't have worked anytime sooner. Now, remember that the stock market took its second biggest drop in history during 2008/2009 so people also haven't been too excited about giving money away.
We only have so many millionaires in the mix. The Welcome Center was one donor. The Chapel renovation was one donor who happened to be the largest donor on the Union as well. Not sure, but these folks probably need a break or perhaps have no interest in athletics. Don Fites gave the money for the Engineering building. He is an engineering grad. We need to match wealthy donors with athletics. At an academically focused/religious school like Valpo, it just makes sense that academic giving would be a greater focus.
Now for the final perspective: The idea that the administration has done nothing to enhance the athletic scene is very wrong and here's why: The acquisition of Porter Hospital. This was completed in 2011. It has taken time to finish the new hospital and now to remove bad stuff before it can be torn down. Miller has been torn down which also needed to be done before the athletic complex can be built. The ARC renovations can't be done until the Fieldhouse is done. Where in the world would all the athletes and coaches go if the ARC was out of comission?
It's timing people, that's it. The time for a major new drive is approaching--it's not here. The hospital needs to be torn down--it hasn't happened yet. It will all fall into place and soon.
Again these are ideas and promises that, as stated previously, have not been financed at all. There is another athletics project in the same boat, the track. The board could have pushed the money more to athletics but decided against it. It is what it is. The major donors for Valpo are not athletically inclined. Only Schrage financed anything for athletics and that was only enough for a basketball wing.
Quote from: valpopal on April 14, 2013, 06:13:53 PMWe have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.
WITH WHAT SCHOOL?? So last year if we pushed to replace Butler with Oakland, Loyola would be thinking twice about this? That's just absurd. There were reports that the HL was targeting Murray State and Belmont. Both aren't budging. Both aren't even interested in the MVC. Sorry I'm beating this dead horse, but it's just ridiculous everyone is attacking the Horizon League for their inaction, but never explain what the desired action should be. Why would they rush to add Oakland if they were targeting Belmont/Murray State or even Evansville to get back to 10 members? Is Oakland still available? Yes. Are they going anywhere else? No. Will any school departing/arriving in the Horizon base their decision based on Oakland being in the league? No way.
Remember, Oakland is like that mediocre looking girl that you can take to the prom because she's really into you. She has a date, but would immediately ditch him for your loving arms... but why not keep pushing for that hot girl in your biology class. Last year we were sitting at 9. I feel we were holding out hope for someone better looking, but now prom is coming up and soon we'll have to settle on good ol reliable.
If Loyola leaving is true, the Horizon could add Oakland to bring the league back to 9, or they can stay at 8 for another year (baseball won't be affected yet) and still try to get Murray State and Belmont. I don't think sitting at 8 would be all that unreasonable. Maybe if you add Oakland you could still end up with Belmont/Murray State. Please argue
WHAT SCHOOL you want to replace Butler and, if it's Oakland that's going to bring you up to 9, why it's more important to have a 9 team league immediately, rather than holding out hope for a Murray State/Belmont combination to bring us to 10 (or an Oakland to keep it an even number). I'm not arguing one way or the other whether or not we should have 8 or 9 teams next year, but if you're going to criticize the league office for some action they haven't taken, at least explain what exactly they should have taken.
Paul Oren spoke to LeCrone. http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/lecrone-speaks-on-horizon-league-realignment/article_67823760-a5fe-11e2-ac32-0019bb2963f4.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/lecrone-speaks-on-horizon-league-realignment/article_67823760-a5fe-11e2-ac32-0019bb2963f4.html) Borrowing a quote from Sergeant Schultz, LeCrone stated "I know noTHING!"
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 15, 2013, 06:34:10 PM
Paul Oren spoke to LeCrone. http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/lecrone-speaks-on-horizon-league-realignment/article_67823760-a5fe-11e2-ac32-0019bb2963f4.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/lecrone-speaks-on-horizon-league-realignment/article_67823760-a5fe-11e2-ac32-0019bb2963f4.html) Borrowing a quote from Sergeant Schultz, LeCrone stated "I know noTHING!"
Agree with LeCrone.. I'll believe when it comes officially... Rumors can spread like wildfire and this still is just a RUMOR!!! Yes, it probably is true but let us not forget this is just a rumor...
Does anybody know the first source to break the news anyways? From what I've read most of the sources have pretty much said the same thing. I will wait till the MVC, Loyola, or the Horizon releases something on realignment before a 100% believe it.
It sounds like LeCrone is still holding out for a school besides or along with Oakland. Or maybe a better school than Oakland with a baseball program. Loyola's leaving seems to have necessitated a move with the addition of at least 2 schools.
Quote from: motowntitan on April 14, 2013, 07:29:19 PMQuote from: EddieCabot on April 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PMQuote from: wh on April 14, 2013, 03:32:51 PMMy hands aren't wringing at all. At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation. I look forward to the day.
I also don't see any difference between the MVC and the Horizon. As 78crusader pointed out, Loyola will now face travel to Wichita, etc., while Valpo will continue to manage their budget by having a league that allows bus travel. It hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but given all these facts, maybe Valpo wasn't snubbed ... maybe they told the MVC they weren't interested.
There is a big difference- Average Attendance. MVC= 7512; HL= 2893. My guess is that the MVC is estimating that the Chicago market will fill either UIC or Loyola arenas full of visiting (MVC) fans that live in Chicago. That being said (even as a guess), UIC makes more sense because The Pavilion holds @ 7k and only sold 46% of capacity this year. If this is the reason, then possible Loyola is finally willing to make a commitment to build a bigger arena. Side Note: If we lost Butler/Loyola and replace them with Oakland- then LeCrone should be fired, unless all of the Presidents are as clueless as him.
I truly hope Valpo did not pass if the MVC provided them an offer. That would have been wimpy and growth restrictive. I think Valpo's administration would be smarter than that.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 15, 2013, 02:47:28 PMI don't understand this at all! One of the articles acclaimed to Loyola's winning tradition??? 4 seasons with +.500 records since their last NCAA tourney bid all the way back in 1985!!!!! That is pathetic! One of the worst basketball programs in the country during that time span.
Maybe so, but I'm fairly certain that if we had ever won the national title we would still be bragging about it, even if it dated back to early Pleistocene.
If you're only going to have 5 bids in your history, a national title plus two more sweet 16s is a winning tradition. think how much mileage we've gotten out of our one.
I used to think there was a 10-year grace period for any coach winning a national title, and then Philip Fulmer. (Then Gene Chizik!!! but that's another story).
So if the grace period for a school winning a national title were, say 50 years...[checks data]...whoops. time expired. :)
Quote from: classof2014 on April 15, 2013, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 15, 2013, 06:34:10 PM
Paul Oren spoke to LeCrone. http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/lecrone-speaks-on-horizon-league-realignment/article_67823760-a5fe-11e2-ac32-0019bb2963f4.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/lecrone-speaks-on-horizon-league-realignment/article_67823760-a5fe-11e2-ac32-0019bb2963f4.html) Borrowing a quote from Sergeant Schultz, LeCrone stated "I know noTHING!"
Agree with LeCrone.. I'll believe when it comes officially... Rumors can spread like wildfire and this still is just a RUMOR!!! Yes, it probably is true but let us not forget this is just a rumor...
Does anybody know the first source to break the news anyways? From what I've read most of the sources have pretty much said the same thing. I will wait till the MVC, Loyola, or the Horizon releases something on realignment before a 100% believe it.
Pretty sure that if Indiana State's AD is saying it is so...that it is true
Quote from: EddieCabot on April 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PMIt hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but given all these facts, maybe Valpo wasn't snubbed ... maybe they told the MVC they weren't interested.
We have no idea what all was viewed, paperwork exchanged, topics discussed, and numbers tossed about; at, during or after the MVC visit. The numbers to justify a jump to the MVC had to work and maybe those exit and entrance fees, the lost HL NCAA tournament units with their attached revenues, plus the projected additional travel expenses just added up to be way too much. Maybe the only answer we could give them was no or no under the terms offered. So maybe they left VU with the door still slightly cracked open? Might UIC have been trying to work a negotiated deal with the MVC when Loyola stepped up and accepted the Valleys original terms? Obviously somebody from UIC thought it was going to happen.
Perhaps the biggest deciding factor for Loyola was a deep pocketed donor on a first name basis with most of their key decision makers, who made a few phone calls saying that if the math concerning the jump was close he could sign another check. This is just speculation but who knows?
Quote from: a3uge on April 15, 2013, 05:48:57 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 14, 2013, 06:13:53 PMWe have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.
WITH WHAT SCHOOL?? So last year if we pushed to replace Butler with Oakland, Loyola would be thinking twice about this? That's just absurd. There were reports that the HL was targeting Murray State and Belmont. Both aren't budging. Both aren't even interested in the MVC. Sorry I'm beating this dead horse, but it's just ridiculous everyone is attacking the Horizon League for their inaction, but never explain what the desired action should be. Why would they rush to add Oakland if they were targeting Belmont/Murray State or even Evansville to get back to 10 members? Is Oakland still available? Yes. Are they going anywhere else? No. Will any school departing/arriving in the Horizon base their decision based on Oakland being in the league? No way.
Remember, Oakland is like that mediocre looking girl that you can take to the prom because she's really into you. She has a date, but would immediately ditch him for your loving arms... but why not keep pushing for that hot girl in your biology class. Last year we were sitting at 9. I feel we were holding out hope for someone better looking, but now prom is coming up and soon we'll have to settle on good ol reliable.
If Loyola leaving is true, the Horizon could add Oakland to bring the league back to 9, or they can stay at 8 for another year (baseball won't be affected yet) and still try to get Murray State and Belmont. I don't think sitting at 8 would be all that unreasonable. Maybe if you add Oakland you could still end up with Belmont/Murray State. Please argue WHAT SCHOOL you want to replace Butler and, if it's Oakland that's going to bring you up to 9, why it's more important to have a 9 team league immediately, rather than holding out hope for a Murray State/Belmont combination to bring us to 10 (or an Oakland to keep it an even number). I'm not arguing one way or the other whether or not we should have 8 or 9 teams next year, but if you're going to criticize the league office for some action they haven't taken, at least explain what exactly they should have taken.
It is not my job to identify schools for the Horizon League. That is what the folks in the league office are getting paid pretty good salaries to do. Give me their salaries and I will do their jobs. Every other conference with openings has been able to entice top teams from lower conferences. Every other league that has lost members has acted to replace those schools. In fact, they all were proactive, aggressive, and positive in comments to the media even before picking schools. However, in the past year since Butler left there has been nothing public from the Horizon League.
In contrast, the Horizon League has given an impression of being reactive, passive, and timid, including in its reticence to speak to the press the past twelve months. Whether or not a team were added in the past (or if good teams are soon announced to replace Butler and Loyola), everyone knows it is detrimental to remain basically silent for a year while impressions of ineffectiveness and weakness build. These impressions are reflected in comments on the message boards of every team in the Horizon League.
Even now with high officials at Loyola and in the MVC openly acknowledging Loyola is leaving the HL, LeCrone acts surprised and appears indecisive in his interview with Paul Oren today. His attitude is not credible and hurts his standing. Anyone involved with public relations will advise that spokespersons get out in front of a story, offer reasons for others to have confidence, and give the appearance of directing events rather than being controlled by others. The Horizon League has violated all those guidelines.
I have complimented the Horizon League officials for their efforts in other areas, such as the online broadcasting of games and the management of the playoffs; however, in its actions since the loss of Butler and in announcements about possible realignment during the past year, they have been inept at public relations.
Missouri State's President, who was on the search committee, is saying that Loyola was an easy choice over us and others.
http://blogs.news-leader.com/msu/2013/04/15/smart-loyola-a-unanimous-choice-for-the-valley/ (http://blogs.news-leader.com/msu/2013/04/15/smart-loyola-a-unanimous-choice-for-the-valley/)
Sounds like Loyola blew us away. Facilities definitely was a major factor in the decision. It seems pretty apparent now that our lack of commitment to athletic facility improvement cost us any chance we might have had.
Quote from: valpopal on April 15, 2013, 10:20:50 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 15, 2013, 05:48:57 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 14, 2013, 06:13:53 PMWe have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.
WITH WHAT SCHOOL?? So last year if we pushed to replace Butler with Oakland, Loyola would be thinking twice about this? That's just absurd. There were reports that the HL was targeting Murray State and Belmont. Both aren't budging. Both aren't even interested in the MVC. Sorry I'm beating this dead horse, but it's just ridiculous everyone is attacking the Horizon League for their inaction, but never explain what the desired action should be. Why would they rush to add Oakland if they were targeting Belmont/Murray State or even Evansville to get back to 10 members? Is Oakland still available? Yes. Are they going anywhere else? No. Will any school departing/arriving in the Horizon base their decision based on Oakland being in the league? No way.
Remember, Oakland is like that mediocre looking girl that you can take to the prom because she's really into you. She has a date, but would immediately ditch him for your loving arms... but why not keep pushing for that hot girl in your biology class. Last year we were sitting at 9. I feel we were holding out hope for someone better looking, but now prom is coming up and soon we'll have to settle on good ol reliable.
If Loyola leaving is true, the Horizon could add Oakland to bring the league back to 9, or they can stay at 8 for another year (baseball won't be affected yet) and still try to get Murray State and Belmont. I don't think sitting at 8 would be all that unreasonable. Maybe if you add Oakland you could still end up with Belmont/Murray State. Please argue WHAT SCHOOL you want to replace Butler and, if it's Oakland that's going to bring you up to 9, why it's more important to have a 9 team league immediately, rather than holding out hope for a Murray State/Belmont combination to bring us to 10 (or an Oakland to keep it an even number). I'm not arguing one way or the other whether or not we should have 8 or 9 teams next year, but if you're going to criticize the league office for some action they haven't taken, at least explain what exactly they should have taken.
It is not my job to identify schools for the Horizon League. That is what the folks in the league office are getting paid pretty good salaries to do. Give me their salaries and I will do their jobs. Every other conference with openings has been able to entice top teams from lower conferences. Every other league that has lost members has acted to replace those schools. In fact, they all were proactive, aggressive, and positive in comments to the media even before picking schools. However, in the past year since Butler left there has been nothing public from the Horizon League.
This is a disappointing response. You're assuming there's a dozen magical schools in the Midwest that are in crappy conferences but are ready for prince charming to sweep them off their feet if the commissioner does some public sweet talking. These schools don't exist. There's only 3 decent enough schools from lower conferences that fit geographically and would have a positive impact on the Horizon. There's not a school out there that has said "well, gosh, I wish the Horizon League commissioner would have spoken better in a quick chat with Paul Oren and rushed last year to add Oakland University, then I would have definitely joined the Horizon by now!" Saying Loyola wouldn't have left if Oakland / IPFW / IUPUI had quickly been added is absurd.
I'm glad we're not giving you a salary to identify replacement schools for the Horizon because you can't even throw out a single name on an Internet forum, let alone argue why they would make a decent replacement for Butler. I've even given you the names of the two most logical schools worth adding, and outside of 'have better public relations' I haven't heard a single idea of how exactly these schools are supposed to come on board to the Horizon when they are either 1. Declining the MVC or 2. Holding out for the MVC. The Horizon League does not have any leverage with these schools, and implying that some public statements make the difference in the situation is ignorant to the entire conference switching situation.
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2013, 12:17:09 AM
Missouri State's President, who was on the search committee, is saying that Loyola was an easy choice over us and others.
http://blogs.news-leader.com/msu/2013/04/15/smart-loyola-a-unanimous-choice-for-the-valley/ (http://blogs.news-leader.com/msu/2013/04/15/smart-loyola-a-unanimous-choice-for-the-valley/)
Sounds like Loyola blew us away. Facilities definitely was a major factor in the decision. It seems pretty apparent now that our lack of commitment to athletic facility improvement cost us any chance we might have had.
A number of posters on this board have repeatedly remarked about the missed opportunity and the lack of investment by the university the past 15 years to capitalize on the national attention by the basketball team's run to the Sweet Sixteen with "The Shot" by Bryce. We have warned this would come back to haunt us at some time. The following two comments by Missouri State's president contrasting Loyola with other schools visited seem to validate those recurring comments of warning and should cause embarrassment for Valparaiso's administration:
"The school is extremely strong academically and they had by far the best athletic facilities of any school we looked at."
"They were more financially committed to putting money into athletics than any other school we looked at and have a plan to do that," Smart said.
Having said that, I still believe that a major factor was "location, location, location": the MVC desired a presence in the Chicago market.
As far as the facilities discussion goes - I think we all should come to the conclusion that our rich donors aren't all that into sports. They would rather have their money go to an academic building rather than to a track team they probably didn't know we had.
I blame all of you guys reading this. You guys could be out there trying to make millions if you weren't so busy reading this and posting responses on this forum! Now go out there and make (win?) some money, but don't forget to sign that multi million dollar check for the new field house :p
What I would like to see happen in the next few years: I would love to see a new HL team along with Valpo step up as a strong mid-major program. Right now I believe that team could be Wright State, they are extremely well coached and greatly overachieved last season. I would love to see the the HL take in two decent mid-major schools as well to bring our numbers up to 10. Whether that be from Oakland, or we might have to look outside our demographics. I think we could stretch our search into Western New York and and into the Tennessee Valley we can find a team. We can't just stay within our current geographic lines of as far north as Green Bay, as far west as UIC, as far south as Wright State, and as far east as Youngstown State. This greatly limits our pool of teams to choose from. If you include Western New York, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and Tennessee this greatly increases our opportunity to get another school that has a decent basketball program to join.
If we want to get a Belmont or a Murray State we need to show vast improvements this season, I think we need 3 or 4 teams playing the NCAA/NIT when the season comes to a close. I think the best way to improve the league is for the remaining teams to step up and take the reigns. Whenever the Horizon has lost a team because they outgrew the league it seemed that a new team stepped up. Hopefully Valpo will be that team and have a bunch of teams below them that are strong competition year-in-year-out. I believe Valpo is ready to take that next step and wouldn't be surprised if: Wright State, Cleveland State, and Youngstown State turn some heads next season.
Unfortunately the MVC is starting to look like it's out of the question... at least for right now. So we have to make the best with what we have. If we can develop some good teams within our own conference then, I have no problem with missing out on the MVC. I think if we can expand our Horizons and look outside our demographics we will get at least one bite from a number of potential teams in the areas I listed above.
Quote from: a3uge on April 16, 2013, 12:23:18 AM
Quote from: valpopal on April 15, 2013, 10:20:50 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 15, 2013, 05:48:57 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 14, 2013, 06:13:53 PMWe have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.
WITH WHAT SCHOOL?? So last year if we pushed to replace Butler with Oakland, Loyola would be thinking twice about this? That's just absurd. There were reports that the HL was targeting Murray State and Belmont. Both aren't budging. Both aren't even interested in the MVC. Sorry I'm beating this dead horse, but it's just ridiculous everyone is attacking the Horizon League for their inaction, but never explain what the desired action should be. Why would they rush to add Oakland if they were targeting Belmont/Murray State or even Evansville to get back to 10 members? Is Oakland still available? Yes. Are they going anywhere else? No. Will any school departing/arriving in the Horizon base their decision based on Oakland being in the league? No way.
Remember, Oakland is like that mediocre looking girl that you can take to the prom because she's really into you. She has a date, but would immediately ditch him for your loving arms... but why not keep pushing for that hot girl in your biology class. Last year we were sitting at 9. I feel we were holding out hope for someone better looking, but now prom is coming up and soon we'll have to settle on good ol reliable.
If Loyola leaving is true, the Horizon could add Oakland to bring the league back to 9, or they can stay at 8 for another year (baseball won't be affected yet) and still try to get Murray State and Belmont. I don't think sitting at 8 would be all that unreasonable. Maybe if you add Oakland you could still end up with Belmont/Murray State. Please argue WHAT SCHOOL you want to replace Butler and, if it's Oakland that's going to bring you up to 9, why it's more important to have a 9 team league immediately, rather than holding out hope for a Murray State/Belmont combination to bring us to 10 (or an Oakland to keep it an even number). I'm not arguing one way or the other whether or not we should have 8 or 9 teams next year, but if you're going to criticize the league office for some action they haven't taken, at least explain what exactly they should have taken.
It is not my job to identify schools for the Horizon League. That is what the folks in the league office are getting paid pretty good salaries to do. Give me their salaries and I will do their jobs. Every other conference with openings has been able to entice top teams from lower conferences. Every other league that has lost members has acted to replace those schools. In fact, they all were proactive, aggressive, and positive in comments to the media even before picking schools. However, in the past year since Butler left there has been nothing public from the Horizon League.
This is a disappointing response. You're assuming there's a dozen magical schools in the Midwest that are in crappy conferences but are ready for prince charming to sweep them off their feet if the commissioner does some public sweet talking. These schools don't exist. There's only 3 decent enough schools from lower conferences that fit geographically and would have a positive impact on the Horizon. There's not a school out there that has said "well, gosh, I wish the Horizon League commissioner would have spoken better in a quick chat with Paul Oren and rushed last year to add Oakland University, then I would have definitely joined the Horizon by now!" Saying Loyola wouldn't have left if Oakland / IPFW / IUPUI had quickly been added is absurd.
I'm glad we're not giving you a salary to identify replacement schools for the Horizon because you can't even throw out a single name on an Internet forum, let alone argue why they would make a decent replacement for Butler. I've even given you the names of the two most logical schools worth adding, and outside of 'have better public relations' I haven't heard a single idea of how exactly these schools are supposed to come on board to the Horizon when they are either 1. Declining the MVC or 2. Holding out for the MVC. The Horizon League does not have any leverage with these schools, and implying that some public statements make the difference in the situation is ignorant to the entire conference switching situation.
That is the funniest comment I have read in quite a while. You find my response disappointing, but you do not quote my whole comment that specifically points out how the inaction I mention has less to do with picking schools but more with publicly showing leadership, inspiring confidence, and encouraging support. Plus, you attribute a number of assumptions to me that I never made.
Yet, you express no disappointment with the person who has the responsibility to demonstrate leadership, get in front of a story, and maintain the league's image, which unfortunately has been diminished the last year or so. I have had the experience of being paid a salary to aid with public relations, and nobody who knows anything about public relations can defend the Horizon League's lack of control with its slipping public image, especially in the time since Butler left.
It's pretty hard to defend an administration that hasn't so much as built a track for it's track program. I wonder who had to try to spin that for the selection committee. That must have been an embarrassing moment.
Thank God for Inman's or the bowling team would probably be using Wii to practice. ;)
LeCrone finally says something:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/19499500-419/loyolas-move-to-missouri-valley-triggers-change-for-horizon-league.html (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/19499500-419/loyolas-move-to-missouri-valley-triggers-change-for-horizon-league.html)
Quote from: valpopal on April 16, 2013, 12:58:31 AM
Quote from: a3uge on April 16, 2013, 12:23:18 AM
Quote from: valpopal on April 15, 2013, 10:20:50 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 15, 2013, 05:48:57 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 14, 2013, 06:13:53 PMWe have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.
WITH WHAT SCHOOL?? So last year if we pushed to replace Butler with Oakland, Loyola would be thinking twice about this? That's just absurd. There were reports that the HL was targeting Murray State and Belmont. Both aren't budging. Both aren't even interested in the MVC. Sorry I'm beating this dead horse, but it's just ridiculous everyone is attacking the Horizon League for their inaction, but never explain what the desired action should be. Why would they rush to add Oakland if they were targeting Belmont/Murray State or even Evansville to get back to 10 members? Is Oakland still available? Yes. Are they going anywhere else? No. Will any school departing/arriving in the Horizon base their decision based on Oakland being in the league? No way.
Remember, Oakland is like that mediocre looking girl that you can take to the prom because she's really into you. She has a date, but would immediately ditch him for your loving arms... but why not keep pushing for that hot girl in your biology class. Last year we were sitting at 9. I feel we were holding out hope for someone better looking, but now prom is coming up and soon we'll have to settle on good ol reliable.
If Loyola leaving is true, the Horizon could add Oakland to bring the league back to 9, or they can stay at 8 for another year (baseball won't be affected yet) and still try to get Murray State and Belmont. I don't think sitting at 8 would be all that unreasonable. Maybe if you add Oakland you could still end up with Belmont/Murray State. Please argue WHAT SCHOOL you want to replace Butler and, if it's Oakland that's going to bring you up to 9, why it's more important to have a 9 team league immediately, rather than holding out hope for a Murray State/Belmont combination to bring us to 10 (or an Oakland to keep it an even number). I'm not arguing one way or the other whether or not we should have 8 or 9 teams next year, but if you're going to criticize the league office for some action they haven't taken, at least explain what exactly they should have taken.
It is not my job to identify schools for the Horizon League. That is what the folks in the league office are getting paid pretty good salaries to do. Give me their salaries and I will do their jobs. Every other conference with openings has been able to entice top teams from lower conferences. Every other league that has lost members has acted to replace those schools. In fact, they all were proactive, aggressive, and positive in comments to the media even before picking schools. However, in the past year since Butler left there has been nothing public from the Horizon League.
This is a disappointing response. You're assuming there's a dozen magical schools in the Midwest that are in crappy conferences but are ready for prince charming to sweep them off their feet if the commissioner does some public sweet talking. These schools don't exist. There's only 3 decent enough schools from lower conferences that fit geographically and would have a positive impact on the Horizon. There's not a school out there that has said "well, gosh, I wish the Horizon League commissioner would have spoken better in a quick chat with Paul Oren and rushed last year to add Oakland University, then I would have definitely joined the Horizon by now!" Saying Loyola wouldn't have left if Oakland / IPFW / IUPUI had quickly been added is absurd.
I'm glad we're not giving you a salary to identify replacement schools for the Horizon because you can't even throw out a single name on an Internet forum, let alone argue why they would make a decent replacement for Butler. I've even given you the names of the two most logical schools worth adding, and outside of 'have better public relations' I haven't heard a single idea of how exactly these schools are supposed to come on board to the Horizon when they are either 1. Declining the MVC or 2. Holding out for the MVC. The Horizon League does not have any leverage with these schools, and implying that some public statements make the difference in the situation is ignorant to the entire conference switching situation.
That is the funniest comment I have read in quite a while. You find my response disappointing, but you do not quote my whole comment that specifically points out how the inaction I mention has less to do with picking schools but more with publicly showing leadership, inspiring confidence, and encouraging support. Plus, you attribute a number of assumptions to me that I never made.
Yet, you express no disappointment with the person who has the responsibility to demonstrate leadership, get in front of a story, and maintain the league's image, which unfortunately has been diminished the last year or so. I have had the experience of being paid a salary to aid with public relations, and nobody who knows anything about public relations can defend the Horizon League's lack of control with its slipping public image, especially in the time since Butler left.
No, what's hilarious is you thinking three paragraphs of PR criticism makes the difference between magically inventing Midwestern schools with great athletic programs to add to the Horizon, and having a bad public image where teams like Loyola are dropping out because of it.
Butler left and we're around the same spot conference wise as we were when we left off. Basketball-wise RPI is extremely similar. Now suddenly there's this big public image problem? With who? These magical schools that want in? The teams in the Horizon that would have improved their athletic departments had it not been for some crappy upper management?
And you still don't have a logical solution in terms of what schools should be added, or if not, an explanation of why we should remain at 8, aside from hoping that the commissioner instills enough confidence in the schools in order to have better programs.
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2013, 01:21:38 AM
LeCrone finally says something:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/19499500-419/loyolas-move-to-missouri-valley-triggers-change-for-horizon-league.html (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/19499500-419/loyolas-move-to-missouri-valley-triggers-change-for-horizon-league.html)
More of saying nothing from LeCrone: "I would anticipate before July 1 we would have an official announcement on our membership for 2013-2014." I certainly hope so since that is the deadline for all leagues.
Quote from: a3uge on April 16, 2013, 01:25:13 AMNow suddenly there's this big public image problem? With who?
If you refuse to see that the Horizon League has a public image problem, even within the ranks of its own fans at all the team forums, then I can't help you.
West
North Dakota State
North Dakota
Oral Roberts
Denver
Green Bay
Milwaukee
UIC
East
Valpo
Youngstown
Detroit
Cleveland St.
Wright St.
Drexel (or Murray)
Oakland (or Belmont)
or go:
UWGB
UWM
UIC
VU
UDM
YSU
WSU
CSU
Drexel
Belmont
ORU
Oakland
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2013, 01:01:03 AMIt's pretty hard to defend an administration that hasn't so much as built a track for it's track program. I wonder who had to try to spin that for the selection committee. That must have been an embarrassing moment.
I know someone who sited that very moment before it happened.
Quote from: bbtds on April 02, 2013, 04:06:21 AMYes, I'm sure the MVC officials will not miss the large area around Brown Field that doesn't have a track and ask when we plan to build the track. I can just see Mark L trying to explain why a track has taken so long to build. That won't go over well at all. I'm sure Mark L is making up his patten response about how that "track of dreams" will now happen when Valpo ties it to a move to the MVC.
"Yeah, sure, right...."
Well, the MVC
didn't believe it, did they?
It is embarrassing to think you are making the choice of your date to the prom and then find out that a person who you thought was less attractive was picked before you by the person you thought you were choosing for a date to the prom. Very degrading and very embarrassing!
Ok guys, you are correct, the administration has made all the wrong choices. We could have had a new fieldhouse by now, a brand new basketball arena, a track and of course a _______ (fill in your own personal ax you want ground here).
So I'm wondering, which one of the following would you have not done to accomplish these athletic dreams which as you look at the campus would now be needed to be built? The Library (the old one was just fine in today's academic world--right?) The Union (making food in all the old dorms was working fine, wasn't it? We could have continued to have alumni gatherings in Hilltop couldn't we?) The new Arts and Science building (Huegli was really attractive after all--I particularly liked the window air conditioners) The Chapel renovations (yeah, the windows were actually falling out but religion has lost its way in today's world--basketball baby!!)
When you think about it, why did we bother to tear down Baldwin or DeMotte? Kids now days need more excercise and the windows did still open! Oh, and that pesky endowment. What good is 140 million doing for us anyway? Why wouldn't just a 100 million do?
Come on you financial wizz kids! Tell us, Tell us!!!
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:11:20 AMWhen you think about it, why did we bother to tear down Baldwin or DeMotte?
Personally DeMotte was my favorite building. The business school moved my junior year. Which building on old campus did you enter on opposite sides if you were going to the first floor as opposed to the second or third floor? I had a speech class in there. Loved that old building as well.
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2013, 01:01:03 AMIt's pretty hard to defend an administration that hasn't so much as built a track for it's track program. I wonder who had to try to spin that for the selection committee. That must have been an embarrassing moment.
Since not all MVC schools run track, I would guess it had zero influence.
Here is a list of sponsored sports in the MVC, most schools do not participate in all,
Teams in Missouri Valley Conference competition Sport
Men's Women's
Baseball 8 -
Basketball 10 10
Cross Country 9 10
Golf 9 10
Soccer 7 7
Softball - 10
Swimming & Diving - 5
Tennis 6 8
Track and Field 7 8
Volleyball - 10
They get to seven mens soccer teams by adding Central Arkansas and SIU-E
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 16, 2013, 07:41:17 AM
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2013, 01:01:03 AMIt's pretty hard to defend an administration that hasn't so much as built a track for it's track program. I wonder who had to try to spin that for the selection committee. That must have been an embarrassing moment.
Since not all MVC schools run track, I would guess it had zero influence.
Here is a list of sponsored sports in the MVC, most schools do not participate in all,
Teams in Missouri Valley Conference competition Sport
Men's Women's
Baseball 8 -
Basketball 10 10
Cross Country 9 10
Golf 9 10
Soccer 7 7
Softball - 10
Swimming & Diving - 5
Tennis 6 8
Track and Field 7 8
Volleyball - 10
They get to seven mens soccer teams by adding Central Arkansas and SIU-E
I could just imagine ml and company saying, "Let's not bring up track. Maybe they won't notice we don't have one. After all, only 70% of the men's programs and 80% of the women's program's in the MVC even participate in track." Yeah, right.
Not only do I believe it was noticed, it very easily could have become the icing on the cake that easily disqualified us from consideration. It is not unreasonable at all to think that someone said, "They talked about being committed to future facility improvements, but they don't even so much as have a track for their track team? They definitely don't walk the talk."
I seriously doubt there is another university in the United States that participates in track that doesn't have a track. If someone knows of one, I'd love to hear about it. That's how incredibly bizarre this is.
If I'm not mistaken, Loyola doesn't have a track.
I don't believe that facilities had anything to do with it! I think Elgin had an idea of who he wanted before he even started the visits. Loyola was probably their top choice before it began. Don't get me wrong Valpo does need to make improvements but I don't believe it had anything to do with the decision. Unfortunately Valparaiso is 50 miles to the southeast of Chicago, compared to Loyola which is in the nicest part of Chicago, that was the deciding factor. Elgin wanted Chicago and Loyola fit what they wanted even though they have only had 4 winning seasons in the past 25 years... Guess that's not important when it comes to athletics...
Quote from: vusupporter on April 16, 2013, 08:55:34 AM
If I'm not mistaken, Loyola doesn't have a track.
Well........................... no and yes. There is no mention of a Loyola Rambler track on their athletic facility website, but they have a M&W T&F program with 5 coaches. I said yes, because if you go to Google Maps and look at the campus, just north of the Gentile Arena, there's an oblong 2 lane asphalt track with a turf infield. It's labeled as the Loyola Track, but I think it's more for joggers. Those of you who remember the old cinder track at Brown Field would remember how long the straightaways were and how close they were to the football playing field, not to mention the tight curves. The LUC track reminds me of that.
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2013, 08:14:43 AMI seriously doubt there is another university in the United States that participates in track that doesn't have a track. If someone knows of one, I'd love to hear about it. That's how incredibly bizarre this is.
Agreed but this is not why we did not get picked anymore than the fact that Loyola doesn't even play baseball did not hurt them. It is nice to complain about and we should have a track but....
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 05:49:20 AMI know someone who sited that very moment before it happened.
Um, guessing probably
everyone sited that--as in right around the football field, I would imagine.
Interesting that what the MSU president (Smart) cited was not just facilities but also budget; I will quote but add enumeration to bring out what I'm reading from it:
Quote"I had never been to that campus before we went on our site visit. It is incredibly impressive," Smart said of Loyola, on Chicago's north side with Lake Michigan nearby. "The school is extremely strong academically and they had by far the best athletic facilities of any school we looked at."
1) campus facilities
2) location
3) athletic facilities
4) academic programs (he cited them in the opposite order but maybe didn't mean it ;))QuoteSmart said Loyola is showing a renewed commitment to its basketball program with hiring of Porter Moser – a former head coach at Illinois State – before last season. The school made a splash over the weekend by hiring former Sheryl Swoopes, a former All-American at Texas Tech and star WNBA player, as its new women's basketball coach.
5) commitment to stop sucking so badQuote"They were more financially committed to putting money into athletics than any other school we looked at and have a plan to do that," Smart said. "In the next three years, they plan to have an athletic budget of $15 million, which is more than ours."
6) money.QuoteGetting a foothold into the Chicago market also was a major factor. Smart said an annual opportunity to connect with MSU's alumni base at sporting events "is huge" as it is for the Valley in terms of earning new sponsorship opportunities from that area.
2) again, as applies to Chicago alums and possible sponsorshipWell, how do we stack up?1) Thanks to the building spree, we are not that far behind in campus facilities, if at all. 20 years ago? Not a chance of being in the conversation.
2) Not a whole lot that can be done about this factor. At least we're close.
3) Well, everybody knows this one by now, right?
4) Speaking of this number, US News blows but it's the most immediately helpful: we're #4 in MW regional universities; Loyola is #106 in national universities. A draw unless you want a particular program.
5) we already don't suck in major sports.
6) Here's the thing: they spend $10.4 million a year (279 in DI); and 18% of that, or $1.9 mil, in MBB (164 in DI).
We already spend $13 million a year (220 in DI); and 14% of that, or $1.8 million, in MBB (171 in DI).
We're already spending the money. They accepted promises that LUC would.
Thus: either we didn't promise the MVC facilities, or we
did and they didn't believe us like they believed Loyola when they said they would spend.
(Although, as anyone who has spent any time working in education, the federal government, or the Yankees organization can tell you, spending money does not at all guarantee good results.)
Olive branch:
QuoteExpansion likely is done for now, but Smart said the league could take a serious look at adding two more teams in the "next couple of three years." (sic; i assume he meant "or")
So best case scenario?We stay in the HL and continue to excel.
Bryce stays around.
This crop of kids gets really good.
We get the rest, or at least almost all the Butler F4 money.
We finally start executing athletic facility upgrades.
Then in a couple of years the MVC door will open again and we'll have been able to see what the HL does (assuming something is done by then ;)) and we will be poised to do whatever we think is best for VU.
Great summary Apostle. That pretty much puts a lid on it -- especially your best case. It is what it is. :(
And so we move on. Hope the administration is keeping tabs on this stuff, however, and is learning from it.
I know for a fact after talking to a main source at ORU, ORU will not get invited to the MVC.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 16, 2013, 10:41:00 AM
I know for a fact after talking to a main source at ORU, ORU will not get invited to the MVC.
ORU, Valpo, as well as Belmont, Murray State, South Dakota State left off the MVC lineup for LOYOLA. Talk about an incompetent commissioner. They replaced Creighton with Loyola. Let that sink in. If you compare attendance, facilities, RPI, any metric, it WOULD be the same as if the Horizon replaced Butler with IUPUI. If I were a Wichita State, I would be begging the MW to open the door for them. Why did they rush to add Loyola with better schools on the table? Why not wait a couple years to see if Loyola actually improves? I mean with all their potential and wonderful facilities, it shouldn't take very long to improve...
Quote from: vusupporter on April 16, 2013, 08:55:34 AM
If I'm not mistaken, Loyola doesn't have a track.
You are correct. They do have 5 track coaches, though, and due to Butler leaving they are predicted #1 in the HL. There are an abundant number of university track facilities around Loyola. How many that aren't at high schools are around Valpo?
http://www.loyolaramblers.com/sports/c-track/sched/loyc-c-track-sched.html (http://www.loyolaramblers.com/sports/c-track/sched/loyc-c-track-sched.html)
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 01:33:41 PM
Quote from: vusupporter on April 16, 2013, 08:55:34 AM
If I'm not mistaken, Loyola doesn't have a track.
You are correct. They do have 5 track coaches, though, and due to Butler leaving they are predicted #1 in the HL. There are an abundant number of university track facilities around Loyola. How many that aren't at high schools are around Valpo?
http://www.loyolaramblers.com/sports/c-track/sched/loyc-c-track-sched.html (http://www.loyolaramblers.com/sports/c-track/sched/loyc-c-track-sched.html)
Good to also know they didn't chose Loyola based on their athletics website... jeez.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 16, 2013, 09:29:18 AMWe finally start executing athletic facility upgrades.
How will this happen when no money has been allocated for this? The board of directors may be blowing smoke up many @sses but they couldn't get anything past the MVC selection committee and it really showed. I feel sorry for ML because he was forced into this position. I'm sure many MVC officials probably laughed at their next meeting when discussing Valpo's facilities. "When did they start promising those students a track?" "Oh, my God, really?"
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 01:46:15 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 16, 2013, 09:29:18 AMWe finally start executing athletic facility upgrades.
How will this happen when no money has been allocated for this? The board of directors may be blowing smoke up many @sses but they couldn't get anything past the MVC selection committee and it really showed. I feel sorry for ML because he was forced into this position. I'm sure many MVC officials probably laughed at their next meeting when discussing Valpo's facilities.
"When did they start promising those students a track?"
"Oh, my God, really?"
Dude, you are really over the top on this. Loyola was picked because they are in Chicago proper and are private. The facilities were not all that critical. Consider the facts: Loyola doesn't have a track either. Loyola doesn't have a baseball tram let alone a baseball field. Loyola doesn't have a men's or women's swim team and probably doesn't have a pool. Loyola has only 13 total sports, 2 of which require no facilities (cross country) and two of which they have to borrow places to practice (track).
Valpo offers 19 sports. That's more coaches and a bigger comitment to NCAA sports.
So here's my offer: If Valpo doesn't announce a new fund raising drive that includes a significant athletics component within the next year I'll do something...not sure what yet! ??? Valpo has now hired a full time major fund raiser for just athletics, who has a significant record of achievement. They didn't do that because they had no plans for such a drive.
Loyola was not chosen for facilities.
They probably laughed until they were FITT to be tied.
How will this happen? It will happen if this encounter served as any kind of a wake-up call. Let's be glad we still have Bryce and we have this awesome class coming in.
Another 3 years in the HL will mean another $600K just from B----r, and $1 mil we don't have to pay the HL for leaving, or any $1 mil or so to enter the MVC. There's your track right there. ($2.6 mil is enough to run the basketball program for a year and a half.)
Downside: we don't have Loyola to kick around any more.
Also we apparently don't have any alumni like the ones Doonesbury talked about way back when ("but I wanna give a GYM!!!" "I'm sure you do. We have a lovely facility already. Now, our CLASSICS department..." "I WANNA GIVE A GYM!!!").
Quote from: a3uge on April 16, 2013, 11:22:58 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 16, 2013, 10:41:00 AM
I know for a fact after talking to a main source at ORU, ORU will not get invited to the MVC.
ORU, Valpo, as well as Belmont, Murray State, South Dakota State left off the MVC lineup for LOYOLA. Talk about an incompetent commissioner. They replaced Creighton with Loyola. Let that sink in. If you compare attendance, facilities, RPI, any metric, it WOULD be the same as if the Horizon replaced Butler with IUPUI. If I were a Wichita State, I would be begging the MW to open the door for them. Why did they rush to add Loyola with better schools on the table? Why not wait a couple years to see if Loyola actually improves? I mean with all their potential and wonderful facilities, it shouldn't take very long to improve...
I follow a Missouri State fan who is definitely pissed about this. Not sure how important he is, but:
https://twitter.com/Nyghtewynd/status/323988743784636416
https://twitter.com/Nyghtewynd/status/323989007522492416
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 02:00:55 PM
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 01:46:15 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 16, 2013, 09:29:18 AMWe finally start executing athletic facility upgrades.
How will this happen when no money has been allocated for this? The board of directors may be blowing smoke up many @sses but they couldn't get anything past the MVC selection committee and it really showed. I feel sorry for ML because he was forced into this position. I'm sure many MVC officials probably laughed at their next meeting when discussing Valpo's facilities.
"When did they start promising those students a track?"
"Oh, my God, really?"
Dude, you are really over the top on this. Loyola was picked because they are in Chicago proper and are private. The facilities were not all that critical. Consider the facts: Loyola doesn't have a track either. Loyola doesn't have a baseball tram let alone a baseball field. Loyola doesn't have a men's or women's swim team and probably doesn't have a pool. Loyola has only 13 total sports, 2 of which require no facilities (cross country) and two of which they have to borrow places to practice (track).
Valpo offers 19 sports. That's more coaches and a bigger comitment to NCAA sports.
So here's my offer: If Valpo doesn't announce a new fund raising drive that includes a significant athletics component within the next year I'll do something...not sure what yet! ??? Valpo has now hired a full time major fund raiser for just athletics, who has a significant record of achievement. They didn't do that because they had no plans for such a drive.
Loyola was not chosen for facilities.
You're entitled to your opinion. I would encourage you to keep thinking that all you want. Keep justifying it in your head that past spending on academic infrastructure was some sort of overall commitment to upgrading in general--never mind that it nearly abandoned athletics in its totality. Keep touting the apologists' line with respect to the historical lack of importance of athletic facilities at Valpo. Do whatever you must to defray the glaring facility issues at Valpo. Facilities were irrelevant in this discussion anyway.
C'mon, no offense, but those of us who have a clue about Division-I athletics know better than to disregard the issue of athletic facilities in this analysis.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 16, 2013, 02:40:36 PMKeep justifying it in your head that past spending on academic infrastructure was some sort of overall commitment to upgrading in general--never mind that it nearly abandoned athletics in its totality.
If Valpo truly ignored its athletics explain to me how the basketball team won two straight Horizon League titles, along with soccer, softball, and baseball all winning the Horizon League regular season or Horizon League tournament over the past 2 seasons. Right now, the money and the donations might not be there to upgrade some of the facilities, but with the new hiring I think there will be substantial fundraising to get an upgrade to the facilities. Let's not forget that Heckler sunk millions of dollars in buying the land the hospital is on so he can expand some of the athletic facilities in the future.
To say Valpo has completely ignored their athletics is completely absurd.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 02:00:55 PMSo here's my offer: If Valpo doesn't announce a new fund raising drive that includes a significant athletics component within the next year I'll do something...not sure what yet!
You sound just like the Valpo board of directors.
"Well, we'll do something! Not sure how we'll pay for it or exactly what, but we'll do something."
The people who should be the most offended by this are the Drews, the Averys, Ryan Broekhoff, Greg Wood, Alec Peters and on and on......
If I was a Valpo student/athlete I would be out protesting.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 16, 2013, 02:40:36 PMKeep justifying it in your head that past spending on academic infrastructure was some sort of overall commitment to upgrading in general--never mind that it nearly abandoned athletics in its totality.
If Valpo truly ignored its athletics explain to me how the basketball team won two straight Horizon League titles, along with soccer, softball, and baseball all winning the Horizon League regular season or Horizon League tournament over the past 2 seasons. Right now, the money and the donations might not be there to upgrade some of the facilities, but with the new hiring I think there will be substantial fundraising to get an upgrade to the facilities. Let's not forget that Heckler sunk millions of dollars in buying the land the hospital is on so he can expand some of the athletic facilities in the future.
To say Valpo has completely ignored their athletics is completely absurd.
ML is a good athletic director. He was able to hire coaches who are really dedicated such as the Drews and the Averys. It wouldn't surprise me if ML was able to get hired by a bigger university with a lot more money in the athletics budget. Real money that isn't just talked about.
There is no money for those new facilities! Who says they are really going to happen?
From a Wichita State blogger:
"Potential" is the key word in this saga. Loyola convinced school presidents it is serious about spending more money on athletics and that it has the money to spend. (Did Valpo come close to doing this?)The MVC clearly was not worried about winning Friday's news conference. It is already losing the PR battle this week as fans take a look at Loyola's track record in men's basketball, its odd hiring of Sheryl Swoopes to coach women's basketball (she has no college coaching experience) and its lack of a baseball program.
The Ramblers will enter the MVC facing legions of skeptics who are fearful that they will drag down the conference's basketball stature. Folks on the banks of Lake Michigan must believe they can compete and they are on the clock to prove themselves.[/b]
Read more here: http://blogs.kansas.com/shockwaves/#storylink=cpy (http://blogs.kansas.com/shockwaves/#storylink=cpy)
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 03:06:02 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 02:00:55 PMSo here's my offer: If Valpo doesn't announce a new fund raising drive that includes a significant athletics component within the next year I'll do something...not sure what yet!
You sound just like the Valpo board of directors.
"Well, we'll do something! Not sure how we'll pay for it or exactly what, but we'll do something."
The people who should be the most offended by this are the Drews, the Averys, Ryan Broekhoff, Greg Wood, Alec Peters and on and on......
If I was a Valpo student/athlete I would be out protesting.
I didn't say we don't need improved athletic facilities. I think they pieces are in place (including an athletic masterplan and new fund raising hire plus the hospital acquisition) I am saying that if facilities were all the MVC was looking at Loyola sure wouldn't be the right choice. They have a nice basketball venue with 1000 less seats than the ARC but much easier to take a leak or buy a hotdog. They have no pool, baseball diamond or track. They have a total of 13 sport teams so their overall comittment to athletics is unproven. Their overall record since the 60's suck. It wasn't about facilities or athletic funding.
It is getting harder and harder to read this board
Quote from: HC on April 16, 2013, 04:10:52 PM
It is getting harder and harder to read this board
Are you on a smartphone? There's an app Tapatalk that makes everything much easier to read as previously discussed here: http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=615.0 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=615.0)
Thanks a3uge...not exactly what I meant though.
Look fellas, we aren't going to the MVC. Its not because of lack of resources or lack of facilities. They chose Loyola. The HL really didn't lose out on anything by Loyola leaving. Adding just about anybody to the league is an upgrade over Loyola. Lets think about who is getting added to the HL since we aren't getting added to the MVC.
https://www.google.com/maps?q=Loyola+University+Chicago,+Sheridan+%26+Loyola,+Chicago,+IL&hl=en&ll=42.00121,-87.658458&spn=0.003298,0.003449&sll=41.992798,-87.676392&sspn=0.037318,0.055189&geocode=FTUafwId8fbG-inFaztcviwOiDHKxgRPXcFgyA%3BFb_lgAIdOHHG-iEHq83ZWdU5QykrqCKXoNEPiDEHq83ZWdU5Qw&t=h&dirflg=r&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&hnear=Sheridan+%26+Loyola&z=18&start=0 (https://www.google.com/maps?q=Loyola+University+Chicago,+Sheridan+%26+Loyola,+Chicago,+IL&hl=en&ll=42.00121,-87.658458&spn=0.003298,0.003449&sll=41.992798,-87.676392&sspn=0.037318,0.055189&geocode=FTUafwId8fbG-inFaztcviwOiDHKxgRPXcFgyA%3BFb_lgAIdOHHG-iEHq83ZWdU5QykrqCKXoNEPiDEHq83ZWdU5Qw&t=h&dirflg=r&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&hnear=Sheridan+%26+Loyola&z=18&start=0)
Zoom in, you'll see it at Sean Earl Field along Loyola Ave.
Here's Valpo's
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.465306,-87.047693&spn=0.002352,0.003449&t=h&z=18 (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.465306,-87.047693&spn=0.002352,0.003449&t=h&z=18)
Zoom in and you'll see what kind of track it is. "Proposed"
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2013, 12:17:09 AM
Missouri State's President, who was on the search committee, is saying that Loyola was an easy choice over us and others.
http://blogs.news-leader.com/msu/2013/04/15/smart-loyola-a-unanimous-choice-for-the-valley/ (http://blogs.news-leader.com/msu/2013/04/15/smart-loyola-a-unanimous-choice-for-the-valley/)
Sounds like Loyola blew us away. Facilities definitely was a major factor in the decision. It seems pretty apparent now that our lack of commitment to athletic facility improvement cost us any chance we might have had.
It may have been an easy choice for them to make, but we still own Missouri State in their primary sport :)
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 16, 2013, 10:41:00 AM
I know for a fact after talking to a main source at ORU, ORU will not get invited to the MVC.
Why is that the case? Did you get any details? I would have thought that they are better positioned than us for such a move
Quote from: valpotx on April 16, 2013, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2013, 12:17:09 AM
Missouri State's President, who was on the search committee, is saying that Loyola was an easy choice over us and others.
http://blogs.news-leader.com/msu/2013/04/15/smart-loyola-a-unanimous-choice-for-the-valley/ (http://blogs.news-leader.com/msu/2013/04/15/smart-loyola-a-unanimous-choice-for-the-valley/)
Sounds like Loyola blew us away. Facilities definitely was a major factor in the decision. It seems pretty apparent now that our lack of commitment to athletic facility improvement cost us any chance we might have had.
It may have been an easy choice for them to make, but we still own Missouri State in their primary sport :)
The reason why it was such an easy choice for MO ST was because they knew that they could win at least 2 games next season!!!
Quote from: HC on April 16, 2013, 04:26:45 PM
Thanks a3uge...not exactly what I meant though.
Look fellas, we aren't going to the MVC. Its not because of lack of resources or lack of facilities. They chose Loyola. The HL really didn't lose out on anything by Loyola leaving. Adding just about anybody to the league is an upgrade over Loyola. Lets think about who is getting added to the HL since we aren't getting added to the MVC.
I agree. If the HL even picks up a mediocre team this offseason, they will be leaps and bounds better than a struggling Loyola squad who showed little to no signs of improvement.
Confirmation from MVC commissioner.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/basketball/college/loyola-chicago-to-join-missouri-valley-conference/article_13c8acbc-7df4-51e5-a964-57fc7dee0046.html (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/basketball/college/loyola-chicago-to-join-missouri-valley-conference/article_13c8acbc-7df4-51e5-a964-57fc7dee0046.html)
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 04:52:43 PMI agree. If the HL even picks up a mediocre team this offseason, they will be leaps and bounds better than a struggling Loyola squad who showed little to no signs of improvement.
This is what really makes it all the more dissappointing. Valpo had little to no competition for the MVC spot and had nothing to show the MVC officials they they could make a facilities commitment for athletics. The "proposed" track was the icing on the cake. All future Valpo facilities are no more than an idea and a dream. Nothing in the past says they will happen. Why do you all seem to believe they will happen in the future? More promises and proposals?
"There's been a definite expression of commitment in terms of increased funding for athletics and in facility development," Elgin (Commissioner of the MVC, speaking of Loyola) said. "They're on the cutting edge of facilities, and there's an energy that was palpable. There's a commitment to not only being progressive on the academic side but the athletic front."
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 04:52:43 PM
The reason why it was such an easy choice for MO ST was because they knew that they could win at least 2 games next season!!!
Is it safe to assume you were still on winter break on January 2, 2013? ;)
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 04:59:10 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 04:52:43 PMI agree. If the HL even picks up a mediocre team this offseason, they will be leaps and bounds better than a struggling Loyola squad who showed little to no signs of improvement.
This is what really makes it all the more dissappointing. Valpo had little to no competition for the MVC spot and had nothing to show the MVC officials they they could make a facilities commitment for athletics. The "proposed" track was the icing on the cake. All future Valpo facilities are no more than an idea and a dream. Nothing in the past says they will happen. Why do you all seem to believe they will happen in the future? More promises and proposals?
"There's been a definite expression of commitment in terms of increased funding for athletics and in facility development," Elgin said. "They're on the cutting edge of facilities, and there's an energy that was palpable. There's a commitment to not only being progressive on the academic side but the athletic front."
Looking back at it now I don't think Valpo ever had a chance before it even began. Elgin probably wanted Loyola from the start and teams like UMKC, UIC, and Valpo were all back ups if Loyola didn't work out. I don't think it had much to do with facilities or athletics, I think it had to do with the market and location. Elgin won't come out and flat out say that, but I can guarantee you he wanted Loyola all along. He has to come up with a reason and the good facilities at Loyola are all but a scapegoat.
Quote from: zvillehaze on April 16, 2013, 05:02:54 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 04:52:43 PM
The reason why it was such an easy choice for MO ST was because they knew that they could win at least 2 games next season!!!
Is it safe to assume you were still on winter break on January 2, 2013? ;)
How'd you guess??? ;)
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 05:06:42 PMLooking back at it now I don't think Valpo ever had a chance before it even began. Elgin probably wanted Loyola from the start and teams like UMKC, UIC, and Valpo were all back ups if Loyola didn't work out. I don't think it had much to do with facilities or athletics, I think it had to do with the market and location. Elgin won't come out and flat out say that, but I can guarantee you he wanted Loyola all along. He has to come up with a reason and the good facilities at Loyola are all but a scapegoat.
Isn't that what people say that don't have dates for the prom?
Believe it if you must but Valpo had a real chance if they had shown any commitment at all to athletic facilities.
It wouldn't have taken much,
commitment in terms of increased funding for athletics and in facility development, but Valpo could show nothing in that area but the same promises they have been feeding the student/athletes and fans for 15-20 years. Elgin and their committee saw right through it.
Nothing wrong with being disappointed. It always sucks to be passed over by a desirable conference.
The object lesson to derive from this disappointment is far from clear to me.
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 05:10:48 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 05:06:42 PMLooking back at it now I don't think Valpo ever had a chance before it even began. Elgin probably wanted Loyola from the start and teams like UMKC, UIC, and Valpo were all back ups if Loyola didn't work out. I don't think it had much to do with facilities or athletics, I think it had to do with the market and location. Elgin won't come out and flat out say that, but I can guarantee you he wanted Loyola all along. He has to come up with a reason and the good facilities at Loyola are all but a scapegoat.
Isn't that what people say that don't have dates for the prom?
Believe it if you must but Valpo had a real chance if they had shown any commitment at all to athletic facilities.
It wouldn't have taken much, commitment in terms of increased funding for athletics and in facility development, but Valpo could show nothing in that area but the same promises they have been feeding the student/athletes and fans for 15-20 years. Elgin and their committee saw right through it.
I believe Valpo has a very strong commitment to athletics and our track record over the past few seasons prove it. Four separate sports won the HL title over the past 2 seasons, that's by no coincidence. Just because our facilities aren't the prettiest doesn't mean we don't have a commitment to athletics. Yes, the ARC is pretty ugly looking but it works just as was as the Gentile Arena. Not having a track does hurt but neither did Loyola, so it obviously wasn't a deciding factor. To have multiple sports reach the pinnacle shows that we have a strong commitment to our athletic teams. Loyola just shows commitment to the athletic facilities not their teams. That's why I believe they had Loyola in mind before it even began and it had nothing to do with the performance of the teams or the athletic facilities. Unfortunately for Valpo we're located 50 miles southeast of Chicago, that's why we weren't chosen.
Quote from: HC on April 16, 2013, 04:26:45 PM
Thanks a3uge...not exactly what I meant though.
Look fellas, we aren't going to the MVC. Its not because of lack of resources or lack of facilities. They chose Loyola. The HL really didn't lose out on anything by Loyola leaving. Adding just about anybody to the league is an upgrade over Loyola. Lets think about who is getting added to the HL since we aren't getting added to the MVC.
I was just being facetious... which admittedly is hard to detect on the internet.
Anyways, I think people are just bitter and feel snubbed toward the situation. Maybe everyone's feeling that the only plausible explanation for the MVC adding Loyola over Valpo was facilities. This would mean Valpo is at fault, and it's easier to point fingers at at something you can potentially do something about rather than face a realization that maybe there wasn't much we could do. Maybe the MVC just acted in the interest of adding a good academic school inside of a big market (much like the B1G TEN did with Rutgers and Maryland). Maybe there aren't a dozen donors out there that would say "Oh, of course I'd rather give my money to athletic facilities rather than this Welcome Center."
Up until a couple of weeks ago we all could never have guessed the MVC was looking to add VALPO/UIC/Loyola/UMKC to replace Creighton rather than Belmont/Murray State/ORU/SDSU and we were fine with the Horizon. Is it THAT big of a deal right now we're right back where we were a week ago, minus one of our worst teams? I mean it's not like seeding is affected between mid-major conferences... South Dakota State wound up with a better seed despite having a worse RPI. I think the Horizon at 8 or 9 with Oakland is not all that horrific. We haven't wound back up in the Summit League. We're not playing Southern Utah, UMKC, and Centenary. We're without a 223 RPI team from last year. If worst comes to worst we lose UIC too whom was 169. Both teams haven't broken the top 100 RPI since Valpo's been in the conference. Oakland's been better than both teams since we've entered the Horizon and they have 2 NCAA births with even a victory.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 16, 2013, 02:40:36 PMKeep justifying it in your head that past spending on academic infrastructure was some sort of overall commitment to upgrading in general--never mind that it nearly abandoned athletics in its totality.
If Valpo truly ignored its athletics explain to me how the basketball team won two straight Horizon League titles, along with soccer, softball, and baseball all winning the Horizon League regular season or Horizon League tournament over the past 2 seasons. Right now, the money and the donations might not be there to upgrade some of the facilities, but with the new hiring I think there will be substantial fundraising to get an upgrade to the facilities. Let's not forget that Heckler sunk millions of dollars in buying the land the hospital is on so he can expand some of the athletic facilities in the future.
To say Valpo has completely ignored their athletics is completely absurd.
I never said VU completely ignored their athletics.
There is a level of facility commitment in place by VU because sometimes our teams win conference championships? What a complete and utter joke. Even Homer Drew admitted that the ARC was a liability when it came to recruiting when he was taking VU to all of those NCAA appearances. Wow, just wow.
And someone mentioned it earlier--instead of chest-thumping about all of this "commitment", why don't you give credit where credit lies? It all goes to the coaches and the AD in trying to facilitate championships with sub-par facilities at best at their disposal.
Some of you more seasoned apologists who roam around here should take note of classof2014. This cat is taking facility apologism to epic proportions and new heights on this board.
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 03:11:45 PMQuote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 03:05:23 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 16, 2013, 02:40:36 PMKeep justifying it in your head that past spending on academic infrastructure was some sort of overall commitment to upgrading in general--never mind that it nearly abandoned athletics in its totality.
If Valpo truly ignored its athletics explain to me how the basketball team won two straight Horizon League titles, along with soccer, softball, and baseball all winning the Horizon League regular season or Horizon League tournament over the past 2 seasons. Right now, the money and the donations might not be there to upgrade some of the facilities, but with the new hiring I think there will be substantial fundraising to get an upgrade to the facilities. Let's not forget that Heckler sunk millions of dollars in buying the land the hospital is on so he can expand some of the athletic facilities in the future. To say Valpo has completely ignored their athletics is completely absurd.
ML is a good athletic director. He was able to hire coaches who are really dedicated such as the Drews and the Averys. It wouldn't surprise me if ML was able to get hired by a bigger university with a lot more money in the athletics budget. Real money that isn't just talked about. There is no money for those new facilities! Who says they are really going to happen?
Did ML hire Carlson the inspirational quoting genius? Just curious about his recruiting record.
Quote from: HC on April 16, 2013, 04:26:45 PM
Look fellas, we aren't going to the MVC. Its not because of lack of resources or lack of facilities. They chose Loyola. The HL really didn't lose out on anything by Loyola leaving. Adding just about anybody to the league is an upgrade over Loyola. Lets think about who is getting added to the HL since we aren't getting added to the MVC.
I have said all along that the primary factors seemed to be "location, location, location": Chicago. And I have agreed that adding a team like Oakland would be an upgrade over Loyola (though not over Butler, which still hasn't been replaced).
However, when the MVC commissioner and the presidents of schools in the MVC all specifically compliment Loyola for its facilities, especially the newly renovated arena, and its stated commitment to fund future athletics, those comments are tacitly contrasting Loyola with the other visited candidates, including Valparaiso, which is a disparagement and an embarrassment.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 16, 2013, 05:56:38 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 16, 2013, 02:40:36 PMKeep justifying it in your head that past spending on academic infrastructure was some sort of overall commitment to upgrading in general--never mind that it nearly abandoned athletics in its totality.
If Valpo truly ignored its athletics explain to me how the basketball team won two straight Horizon League titles, along with soccer, softball, and baseball all winning the Horizon League regular season or Horizon League tournament over the past 2 seasons. Right now, the money and the donations might not be there to upgrade some of the facilities, but with the new hiring I think there will be substantial fundraising to get an upgrade to the facilities. Let's not forget that Heckler sunk millions of dollars in buying the land the hospital is on so he can expand some of the athletic facilities in the future.
To say Valpo has completely ignored their athletics is completely absurd.
I never said VU completely ignored their athletics.
There is a level of facility commitment in place by VU because sometimes our teams win conference championships? What a complete and utter joke. Even Homer Drew admitted that the ARC was a liability when it came to recruiting when he was taking VU to all of those NCAA appearances. Wow, just wow.
And someone mentioned it earlier--instead of chest-thumping about all of this "commitment", why don't you give credit where credit lies? It all goes to the coaches and the AD in trying to facilitate championships with sub-par facilities at best at their disposal.
Some of you more seasoned apologists who roam around here should take note of classof2014. This cat is taking facility apologism to epic proportions and new heights on this board.
I never apologized on behalf of our subpar facilities, I think people have blown the issue of the state of our facilities way out of the water. If it was all based on facilities then why does Loyola stink if they have amazing facilities? Obviously the quality of the coaches matters the most for incoming recruits. If not, then why are we still able to get top level recruits and transfers committing to Valpo. Yes, the ARC is a liability but in the big picture it doesn't matter all too much to the recruits.
And if you're wondering. Yes, I would love to see a renovation to the ARC because it most definitely needs it.
Let me try this another final time. I'm not apologizing for anyone. The previous administration had different ideas when it came to athletic success and how to take advantage of it, if at all. That is history.
My point is we now have a new administration who took over at a point where the previous record setting fund drive was nearing an end followed by a market crash.
Give the new guy a chance. He has hired a whole new team of people including a fund raiser focused on just athletics. A new 20 year plan has just been completed as well as an athletic master plan which to my knowledge has never been undertaken in prior years.
He has acquired one of the biggest pieces of dirt in the history of Valpo which is dedicated to athletics.
Do ya think he just might have a plan? Jeez, Alan Harre retired a long time ago as did Bill Steinbrecker. A little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: HC on April 16, 2013, 04:10:52 PMIt is getting harder and harder to read this board
...because people have stopped finishing their sentences?
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 04:44:45 PMZoom in, you'll see it at Sean Earl Field along Loyola Ave.
Here's Valpo's
Zoom in and you'll see what kind of track it is. "Proposed"
Has anyone ever accused you of having a two-track mind? ;)
Quote from: a3uge on April 16, 2013, 05:39:32 PMUp until a couple of weeks ago we all could never have guessed the MVC was looking to add VALPO/UIC/Loyola/UMKC to replace Creighton rather than Belmont/Murray State/ORU/SDSU and we were fine with the Horizon. Is it THAT big of a deal right now we're right back where we were a week ago, minus one of our worst teams?
Bro, you are just consistently cranking out good posts. Like the guy in your avatar (his are a little lower though).
Quote from: a3uge on April 16, 2013, 05:39:32 PMOakland's been better than both teams since we've entered the Horizon and they have 2 NCAA births
...Kampe's wife had play-in-twins?
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 16, 2013, 05:56:38 PMThis cat is taking facility apologism to epic proportions and new heights on this board.
More good points. Also extra credit because according to Google no one on the Interwebz has ever used the phrase "facility apologism" before.
(It would make a great quote on his avatar-as-movie-poster:
"Takes facility apologism to
EPIC proportions and
NEW heights!!!"
--David Manning,
The Ridgefield Press)
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Good point, but this is the Internet, and patience is not on the docket!
(Even if it were, though, the response to that would be, things have been happening REALLY fast in DI athletics ever since the B1G announced it was taking apps, and we don't have the kind of time to wait for "shovel-ready". I may have posted this before, but it also applies here:
You could flash-fry a buffalo in 40 seconds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9EBhaULToU#)
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Starting to sound like a broken record? I think I have been patient for well over 15 years (and actually much more than that). I followed Valpo when it was difficult and there wasn't an internet. I used to scan over the fine print in the Indy Star for scores. I got as much info from Valpo students who were members of my church as I could about the athletic teams. I'm afraid my patience has run out. I need to step back and take a good long pause.
Maybe that cycling team at Marian University could be interesting. I've recently heard a lot about them.
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 04:44:45 PM
https://www.google.com/maps?q=Loyola+University+Chicago,+Sheridan+%26+Loyola,+Chicago,+IL&hl=en&ll=42.00121,-87.658458&spn=0.003298,0.003449&sll=41.992798,-87.676392&sspn=0.037318,0.055189&geocode=FTUafwId8fbG-inFaztcviwOiDHKxgRPXcFgyA%3BFb_lgAIdOHHG-iEHq83ZWdU5QykrqCKXoNEPiDEHq83ZWdU5Qw&t=h&dirflg=r&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&hnear=Sheridan+%26+Loyola&z=18&start=0 (https://www.google.com/maps?q=Loyola+University+Chicago,+Sheridan+%26+Loyola,+Chicago,+IL&hl=en&ll=42.00121,-87.658458&spn=0.003298,0.003449&sll=41.992798,-87.676392&sspn=0.037318,0.055189&geocode=FTUafwId8fbG-inFaztcviwOiDHKxgRPXcFgyA%3BFb_lgAIdOHHG-iEHq83ZWdU5QykrqCKXoNEPiDEHq83ZWdU5Qw&t=h&dirflg=r&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&hnear=Sheridan+%26+Loyola&z=18&start=0)
Zoom in, you'll see it at Sean Earl Field along Loyola Ave.
Here's Valpo's
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.465306,-87.047693&spn=0.002352,0.003449&t=h&z=18 (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.465306,-87.047693&spn=0.002352,0.003449&t=h&z=18)
Zoom in and you'll see what kind of track it is. "Proposed"
OK fancy pants, look at this map at zoom in on Eastgate Soccer Field. You'll see a "real" track, not some two lane goofy deal!
We all can play with google earth!! ;)
Oh man, I'm so lame. I can't figure out how to post the site. Go to google earth and look at the eastgate soccer field. There you will see a track! Wide and real. Is it really a track fro intercollegiate athletics? No, just ask valporun. Does it look like one from the sky? Yep. So much for google views of athletic facilities.
Add Oakland already. UIC is now our travel partner
Ah, probably no -- would not be at 10 so it'll be just like this past year, right? ???
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 03:24:58 PMFrom a Wichita State blogger: "Potential" is the key word in this saga. Loyola convinced school presidents it is serious about spending more money on athletics and that it has the money to spend. (Did Valpo come close to doing this?)The MVC clearly was not worried about winning Friday's news conference. It is already losing the PR battle this week as fans take a look at Loyola's track record in men's basketball, its odd hiring of Sheryl Swoopes to coach women's basketball (she has no college coaching experience) and its lack of a baseball program. The Ramblers will enter the MVC facing legions of skeptics who are fearful that they will drag down the conference's basketball stature. Folks on the banks of Lake Michigan must believe they can compete and they are on the clock to prove themselves. Read more here: http://blogs.kansas.com/shockwaves/#storylink=cpy (http://blogs.kansas.com/shockwaves/#storylink=cpy)
well in comparison, they are no worse than DePaul, who is supposed to be Chicago's flagship team. The way DePaul is going, I would take Loyola over them right now based on potential.
Quote from: bbtds on April 16, 2013, 08:33:45 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Quote from: vu72 on April 16, 2013, 07:30:43 PMA little patience just might be in order.
Starting to sound like a broken record?
Those were all from the same post.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 16, 2013, 05:56:38 PMThis cat is taking facility apologism to epic proportions and new heights on this board.
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/88439_IZ98C5It1Q1vEvj.jpg)
(http://www.butler.edu/media/1765955/presidentbanner.jpg)
Danko: We were in the same conference 1 year ago. Now we're heading to the Big East.
(http://www.valpoathletics.com/media/miscellaneous/2012-13/Gerardot_041413_PAHB.jpg)
Heckler: We were visited by the Missouri Valley Conference and I told them about our plans.
Tab: I'm out of here!
In the words of the late Joe Strummer: "Death or glory, becomes just another story."
What's done is done and it's just another story. MVC or no MVC Valpo is in a great situation moving on. They have a great freshman class coming in and a great coaching staff, and we're still in the Horizon which isn't a terrible conference and now minus a terrible team possibly we can fill it with somebody better, shouldn't be hard to find that somebody else since Loyola was inept. I know that it is a disappointment not getting the invite but at the start of next season we'll forget about as we look towards the excitement of seeing all the freshman suit up in a Valpo uniform for the first time and all this buzz around the MVC will have all been tucked away in the back of our brains as just another story.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 11:30:20 PM
In the words of the late Joe Strummer: "Death or glory, becomes just another story."
What's done is done and it's just another story. MVC or no MVC Valpo is in a great situation moving on. They have a great freshman class coming in and a great coaching staff, and we're still in the Horizon which isn't a terrible conference and now minus a terrible team possibly we can fill it with somebody better, shouldn't be hard to find that somebody else since Loyola was inept. I know that it is a disappointment not getting the invite but at the start of next season we'll forget about as we look towards the excitement of seeing all the freshman suit up in a Valpo uniform for the first time and all this buzz around the MVC will have all been tucked away in the back of our brains as just another story.
"I think this is it for '13-'14. I think there's some interest in discussing expansion of the conference in the future." With comments like this from the Indiana State Athletic Director and other MVC officials about possibly adding two teams in a year or two, I doubt this story will slip away too soon. Plus, every time another conversation arises about Valpo's facilities and investments in athletics, the comments by the MVC officials about the better arena and commitment at Loyola will be referenced. Therefore, as far as this story goes, it will not be tucked away or forgotten: in the words of ZZ Top, "She's got legs!"
It's interesting to hear again what Jon LeCrone had to say only a month ago about conference expansion:
Commissioner Jon LeCrone HLN on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/61441233)
One thing has already changed. He stated that there is a very high likelihood that all 9 HL schools will stay intact.
Add Oakland and ORU, and be done with it until next offseason when more changes come
(http://www.luc.edu/umc/newsroom/images/garanzini.jpg)
Michael J. Garanzini, S.J. 23rd president of Loyola University-Chicago:
Dear Jon,
When one looks to the horizon for inspiration, one should always remember there are valleys in our path. And the fruit of ones vocation is in the prosperous outcomes of ones students.
We're out of here.
Quote from: bbtds on April 17, 2013, 01:32:39 AMWe're out of here.
WE OUTTA HERE, CHUMP
there i fixed it for you
Quote from: valpotx on April 17, 2013, 01:30:54 AM
Add Oakland and ORU, and be done with it until next offseason when more changes come
Why add ORU? Comptetive basketball and baseball but too geographically too far. Their programs arent worth the distance to travel.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 17, 2013, 07:02:55 AMQuote from: valpotx on April 17, 2013, 01:30:54 AMAdd Oakland and ORU, and be done with it until next offseason when more changes come
Why add ORU? Comptetive basketball and baseball but too geographically too far. Their programs arent worth the distance to travel.
ORU is not growing, it is a gradually deteriorating school. I do not understand where is interest in that school.
Quote from: valpotx on April 17, 2013, 01:30:54 AM
Add Oakland and ORU, and be done with it until next offseason when more changes come
For what it is worth: According to a post on the Loyola board, Oakland officials conferred with HL Commissioner LeCrone yesterday at the HL headquarters offices in Indy.
Quote from: valpopal on April 17, 2013, 07:53:04 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 17, 2013, 01:30:54 AM
Add Oakland and ORU, and be done with it until next offseason when more changes come
For what it is worth: According to a post on the Loyola board, Oakland officials conferred with HL Commissioner LeCrone yesterday at the HL headquarters offices in Indy.
That was the guy wandering around South Street saying "What does LeCrone mean 'be alert, strategic and patient?' I got Kampe tweeting about everything."
Greg Kampe @KampeOU
Is there anything for $1:06 better the a Micky-D's ice cream cone. Lady in car next to me sure looked jealous. The corner of Adams/Walton
Greg Kampe @KampeOU
Our league is a little weird. Hunted wabbits, now we got Yotes and Roos. Jackrabbits, Coyotes and Kangaroos .....oh my-all in 8 days
Greg Kampe @KampeOU
Shhhhh. Be vewy vewy quiet. I'm hunting Jackwabbits.
Greg Kampe @KampeOU
This is a bad year: Twinkies, Hoho's and now the iron. What next, the Whooper, Slurpee , 99cent bag of chips
Greg Kampe @KampeOU
Didn't think I gained that much during Holidays, life guard fired a harpoon at me during my swim workout today. She must a UDM grad.(You think Kampe would post on this board? He sounds like a lot of fun.)
Just a thought here...depending on what happens with Horizon League expansion and who gets invited in (Oakland, other Summit League teams, etc), does it make sense for us to look at starting to schedule teams from these conferences that we are interested in maybe moving to in the future. A lot of us complained about our somewhat weak non-conference schedule this past year but we also dont need to be scheduling teams like Duke, Carolina, like in the 2000's. What about maybe scheduling some home and home series with a couple of teams from the MVC, OVC, or the like - some stronger mid-major teams that are at our level or maybe 1/2 a level above...
Brian
Quote from: classof2014 on April 16, 2013, 11:30:20 PMI know that it is a disappointment not getting the invite but at the start of next season we'll forget about as we look towards the excitement of seeing all the freshman suit up in a Valpo uniform for the first time and all this buzz around the MVC will have all been tucked away in the back of our brains as just another story.
Until another school leaves the HL. Who knows who's likely to leave next. But remember to be strategic, alert and patient.
Agree with bmlvu we should try and schedule more with teams in the OVC MVC & MAC. Its about time we drop the "whining" about not getting an invite to the MVC. Whether its because of location or facilities its done. Concentrate on improving our sports teams. Winning in the Horizon league will get you into the NCAA tournaments. How about the Horizon league finding a travel partner for Wright State. I think Northern Kentucky would be a good choice. Very good teams in Div II over the last 20 years. I feel Oakland is a done deal and would be Detroit's travel partner. UIC would be our travel partner. 10 teams would be a good number. Only really negative would be that the Horizon would only have 2 private schools.
Quote from: RS on April 17, 2013, 09:14:05 AMIts about time we drop the "whining" about not getting an invite to the MVC.
You obviously know nothing about "whine" making. You can not rush when making "whines." You must be patient, alert and strategic. "Whines" can only come from the fruitiest of authors. You can complete no "whine" before it's time.
whine (hwn, wn)
v. whined, whin·ing, whines
v.intr.
1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch: jet engines whining.
(Imagine this whole post in a high-pitched, protracted sound)
Does anyone know for certain that we didn't get an invite? Maybe we did but turned it down or just sat on our hands for too long until Loyola said yes. I have a hard time imagining that they would offer an invite to Loyola but not offer one to us. But in the meantime we sit in a crumbling conference while other teams find safe harbor. Great job AD. Great job
Quote from: crazyozzie02 on April 17, 2013, 01:07:20 PM
Does anyone know for certain that we didn't get an invite? Maybe we did but turned it down or just sat on our hands for too long until Loyola said yes. I have a hard time imagining that they would offer an invite to Loyola but not offer one to us. But in the meantime we sit in a crumbling conference while other teams find safe harbor. Great job AD. Great job
You might start by going to page 14, post #8 (the first post announcing that Loyola was going to join the MVC) and start reading from there. Every thought people have about why we didn't get an invite, whether we did and turned it down, or whether we "sit in a crumbling conference" is there for your reading pleasure among the dozens (hundreds) of posts that follow.
Welcome to the board!
Quote from: crazyozzie02 on April 17, 2013, 01:07:20 PM
Does anyone know for certain that we didn't get an invite? Maybe we did but turned it down or just sat on our hands for too long until Loyola said yes. I have a hard time imagining that they would offer an invite to Loyola but not offer one to us. But in the meantime we sit in a crumbling conference while other teams find safe harbor. Great job AD. Great job
I'm pretty certain we didn't get an invite... At least how Elgin is making it out to be. I could be wrong since nothing official has been stated by anybody but it's just about a done deal that Loyola will be going to the MVC this summer. I don't believe Valpo got an offer, if they did offer Valpo a spot they wouldn't have offered Loyola one as well unless they're going to 12 teams this summer. I don't see that happening... at least not this year. Perhaps in years to come.
I don't believe our conference is crumbling... at least not yet. We only lost Loyola. A team that has only had 4 winning seasons since 1985! So saying they're bad is a compliment. If the Horizon can make a move to replace Loyola, with possibly Oakland, it would've worked out better for us. Yes, if another team leaves this offseason, then I would consider the conference to be crumbling. Losing Butler last year hurts but they earned the ability to move on to bigger and better things. Loyola has been terrible and has done nothing for the Horizon, I'm actually happy to see them go. Hopefully this season we can get Oakland and perhaps leave next year. But to say the Horizon is crumbling at the moment is a vast overstatement.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 17, 2013, 01:36:50 PMQuote from: crazyozzie02 on April 17, 2013, 01:07:20 PMDoes anyone know for certain that we didn't get an invite? Maybe we did but turned it down or just sat on our hands for too long until Loyola said yes. I have a hard time imagining that they would offer an invite to Loyola but not offer one to us. But in the meantime we sit in a crumbling conference while other teams find safe harbor. Great job AD. Great job
I'm pretty certain we didn't get an invite... At least how Elgin is making it out to be. I could be wrong since nothing official has been stated by anybody but it's just about a done deal that Loyola will be going to the MVC this summer. I don't believe Valpo got an offer, if they did offer Valpo a spot they wouldn't have offered Loyola one as well unless they're going to 12 teams this summer. I don't see that happening... at least not this year. Perhaps in years to come. I don't believe our conference is crumbling... at least not yet. We only lost Loyola. A team that has only had 4 winning seasons since 1985! So saying they're bad is a compliment. If the Horizon can make a move to replace Loyola, with possibly Oakland, it would've worked out better for us. Yes, if another team leaves this offseason, then I would consider the conference to be crumbling. Losing Butler last year hurts but they earned the ability to move on to bigger and better things. Loyola has been terrible and has done nothing for the Horizon, I'm actually happy to see them go. Hopefully this season we can get Oakland and perhaps leave next year. But to say the Horizon is crumbling at the moment is a vast overstatement.
Why is Oakland such as great pick? C'mon I would think they can do better than that. The way DePaul is playing, perhaps they would consider a step down in conference. Also, maybe Evansville may be a nice fit - they were in the Midwestern conference before.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 17, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 17, 2013, 01:36:50 PMQuote from: crazyozzie02 on April 17, 2013, 01:07:20 PMDoes anyone know for certain that we didn't get an invite? Maybe we did but turned it down or just sat on our hands for too long until Loyola said yes. I have a hard time imagining that they would offer an invite to Loyola but not offer one to us. But in the meantime we sit in a crumbling conference while other teams find safe harbor. Great job AD. Great job
I'm pretty certain we didn't get an invite... At least how Elgin is making it out to be. I could be wrong since nothing official has been stated by anybody but it's just about a done deal that Loyola will be going to the MVC this summer. I don't believe Valpo got an offer, if they did offer Valpo a spot they wouldn't have offered Loyola one as well unless they're going to 12 teams this summer. I don't see that happening... at least not this year. Perhaps in years to come. I don't believe our conference is crumbling... at least not yet. We only lost Loyola. A team that has only had 4 winning seasons since 1985! So saying they're bad is a compliment. If the Horizon can make a move to replace Loyola, with possibly Oakland, it would've worked out better for us. Yes, if another team leaves this offseason, then I would consider the conference to be crumbling. Losing Butler last year hurts but they earned the ability to move on to bigger and better things. Loyola has been terrible and has done nothing for the Horizon, I'm actually happy to see them go. Hopefully this season we can get Oakland and perhaps leave next year. But to say the Horizon is crumbling at the moment is a vast overstatement.
Why is Oakland such as great pick? C'mon I would think they can do better than that. The way DePaul is playing, perhaps they would consider a step down in conference. Also, maybe Evansville may be a nice fit - they were in the Midwestern conference before.
I think Oakland would be a good fit in the Horizon. Similar school to many in the Horizon and right now they're the ones who've shown the most interest in the Horizon. I don't see Evansville leaving the MVC nor do I see DePaul stepping down to the Horizon. If they were to take a step down it'd be to the A-10 or even the MVC but not as far low as the Horizon. Oakland is a good fit based on the demographics of the Horizon League. I don't think the Horizon can afford to be so picky over who it wants in. The league has fallen to 8 teams and is in need of a new school this summer and if they can replace Loyola with Oakland it will be a small step up for the Horizon.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 17, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 17, 2013, 01:36:50 PMQuote from: crazyozzie02 on April 17, 2013, 01:07:20 PMDoes anyone know for certain that we didn't get an invite? Maybe we did but turned it down or just sat on our hands for too long until Loyola said yes. I have a hard time imagining that they would offer an invite to Loyola but not offer one to us. But in the meantime we sit in a crumbling conference while other teams find safe harbor. Great job AD. Great job
I'm pretty certain we didn't get an invite... At least how Elgin is making it out to be. I could be wrong since nothing official has been stated by anybody but it's just about a done deal that Loyola will be going to the MVC this summer. I don't believe Valpo got an offer, if they did offer Valpo a spot they wouldn't have offered Loyola one as well unless they're going to 12 teams this summer. I don't see that happening... at least not this year. Perhaps in years to come. I don't believe our conference is crumbling... at least not yet. We only lost Loyola. A team that has only had 4 winning seasons since 1985! So saying they're bad is a compliment. If the Horizon can make a move to replace Loyola, with possibly Oakland, it would've worked out better for us. Yes, if another team leaves this offseason, then I would consider the conference to be crumbling. Losing Butler last year hurts but they earned the ability to move on to bigger and better things. Loyola has been terrible and has done nothing for the Horizon, I'm actually happy to see them go. Hopefully this season we can get Oakland and perhaps leave next year. But to say the Horizon is crumbling at the moment is a vast overstatement.
Why is Oakland such as great pick? C'mon I would think they can do better than that. The way DePaul is playing, perhaps they would consider a step down in conference. Also, maybe Evansville may be a nice fit - they were in the Midwestern conference before.
Seriously???? You think that Depaul would take a step down from the new Big East and the money involved there?? Wow....
Quote from: valpotx on April 17, 2013, 03:24:29 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 17, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on April 17, 2013, 01:36:50 PMQuote from: crazyozzie02 on April 17, 2013, 01:07:20 PMDoes anyone know for certain that we didn't get an invite? Maybe we did but turned it down or just sat on our hands for too long until Loyola said yes. I have a hard time imagining that they would offer an invite to Loyola but not offer one to us. But in the meantime we sit in a crumbling conference while other teams find safe harbor. Great job AD. Great job
I'm pretty certain we didn't get an invite... At least how Elgin is making it out to be. I could be wrong since nothing official has been stated by anybody but it's just about a done deal that Loyola will be going to the MVC this summer. I don't believe Valpo got an offer, if they did offer Valpo a spot they wouldn't have offered Loyola one as well unless they're going to 12 teams this summer. I don't see that happening... at least not this year. Perhaps in years to come. I don't believe our conference is crumbling... at least not yet. We only lost Loyola. A team that has only had 4 winning seasons since 1985! So saying they're bad is a compliment. If the Horizon can make a move to replace Loyola, with possibly Oakland, it would've worked out better for us. Yes, if another team leaves this offseason, then I would consider the conference to be crumbling. Losing Butler last year hurts but they earned the ability to move on to bigger and better things. Loyola has been terrible and has done nothing for the Horizon, I'm actually happy to see them go. Hopefully this season we can get Oakland and perhaps leave next year. But to say the Horizon is crumbling at the moment is a vast overstatement.
Why is Oakland such as great pick? C'mon I would think they can do better than that. The way DePaul is playing, perhaps they would consider a step down in conference. Also, maybe Evansville may be a nice fit - they were in the Midwestern conference before.
Seriously???? You think that Depaul would take a step down from the new Big East and the money involved there?? Wow....
The new Big East is already a huge step down from the old Big East. Maybe they can actually become competitive now and pull their own weight instead of living off their annual handout.
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4442/valporadar.png)
Updated: See post below
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2105/valporadar2.png)
For reference, I have created a map of schools on Valpo's radar.
Black and Gold is Horizon.
The green refers to all schools in the MVC. If you don't know which school is which, look it up.
Orange is OVC. Only included Murray St and Belmont for now because the rest of the conference is either bad or too far south. I can include others if anyone thinks they'd be a good addition.
The Red is all Summit League teams. Only labeled teams that are relatively decent in RPI.
The light blue is Northern Kentucky from the A-Sun because someone mentioned them.
I'm not including DePaul because that's just plain stupid.
Also Murray State is within a few miles of the Tennessee line.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Murray,+KY&hl=en&ll=36.611118,-88.313599&spn=1.289711,1.766052&sll=41.475425,-87.053415&sspn=0.07524,0.110378&oq=Murray&t=m&hnear=Murray,+Calloway,+Kentucky&z=9
Coming from a geography major, that map is somewhat accurate. I've seen munch worse.
Anyways, this map does demonstrate the number of teams that are within close proximity of the horizon and the number of quality teams as well. Surely, one will jump aboard perhaps even two.
I'd say what I thought about the map, but then people would think we're the same person with how often I've been complimenting you lately. Thanks for that. Did you save it so we can add things if they occur to us?
Quote from: classof2014 on April 17, 2013, 07:08:24 PM
I've seen munch worse.
(http://www.sothebys.com/content/dam/sothebys/Events/Miscellaneous/Munch_320px.jpg)
Quote from: valpotx on April 17, 2013, 03:24:29 PMQuote from: usc4valpo on April 17, 2013, 02:13:28 PMQuote from: classof2014 on April 17, 2013, 01:36:50 PMQuote from: crazyozzie02 on April 17, 2013, 01:07:20 PMDoes anyone know for certain that we didn't get an invite? Maybe we did but turned it down or just sat on our hands for too long until Loyola said yes. I have a hard time imagining that they would offer an invite to Loyola but not offer one to us. But in the meantime we sit in a crumbling conference while other teams find safe harbor. Great job AD. Great job
I'm pretty certain we didn't get an invite... At least how Elgin is making it out to be. I could be wrong since nothing official has been stated by anybody but it's just about a done deal that Loyola will be going to the MVC this summer. I don't believe Valpo got an offer, if they did offer Valpo a spot they wouldn't have offered Loyola one as well unless they're going to 12 teams this summer. I don't see that happening... at least not this year. Perhaps in years to come. I don't believe our conference is crumbling... at least not yet. We only lost Loyola. A team that has only had 4 winning seasons since 1985! So saying they're bad is a compliment. If the Horizon can make a move to replace Loyola, with possibly Oakland, it would've worked out better for us. Yes, if another team leaves this offseason, then I would consider the conference to be crumbling. Losing Butler last year hurts but they earned the ability to move on to bigger and better things. Loyola has been terrible and has done nothing for the Horizon, I'm actually happy to see them go. Hopefully this season we can get Oakland and perhaps leave next year. But to say the Horizon is crumbling at the moment is a vast overstatement.
Why is Oakland such as great pick? C'mon I would think they can do better than that. The way DePaul is playing, perhaps they would consider a step down in conference. Also, maybe Evansville may be a nice fit - they were in the Midwestern conference before.
Seriously???? You think that Depaul would take a step down from the new Big East and the money involved there?? Wow....
I may be off a few conference levels but Depaul really sucks and their program needs an emena in the worst way. The Allstate Arena is a dump, and fan apathy and pathetic. Maybe going back to the basics would help them.
Quote from: a3uge on April 17, 2013, 06:00:15 PM(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4442/valporadar.png) For reference, I have created a map of schools on Valpo's radar. Black and Gold is Horizon. The green refers to all schools in the MVC. If you don't know which school is which, look it up. Orange is OVC. Only included Murray St and Belmont for now because the rest of the conference is either bad or too far south. I can include others if anyone thinks they'd be a good addition. The Red is all Summit League teams. Only labeled teams that are relatively decent in RPI. The light blue is Northern Kentucky from the A-Sun because someone mentioned them. I'm not including DePaul because that's just plain stupid.
You sure DePaul would be wanted by the MVC or A10? THey barely beat Chicago St. this year.
Yes, Depaul sucks, but as long as they are pulling in the $ they are in the better conferences, they will never leave. Northern Kentucky doesn't look that bad as an option with Oakland to get to 10. They have solid facilities and are committed
Quote from: valpotx on April 17, 2013, 09:28:07 PM
Yes, Depaul sucks, but as long as they are pulling in the $ they are in the better conferences, they will never leave. Northern Kentucky doesn't look that bad as an option with Oakland to get to 10. They have solid facilities and are committed
Agreed. Both Oakland and Northern Kentucky would be making big jumps in the strength of their conference and both are within our demographics. Northern Kentucky being from the Kentucky side of Cincinnati so they aren't too far from Dayton and Oakland are the northern neighbors of Detroit. Think it would be a good fit. Only time will tell though.
Not too sure about adding Northern Kentucky this year... http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2058557
With one scandal already looming in the Horizon, not too sure we want to take on a program with another.
I will update dat map later. Going to look at some eastern teams and indicate the rest of the OVC. Thanks for the suggestions.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 17, 2013, 07:08:24 PM
Coming from a geography major, that map is somewhat accurate. I've seen munch worse.
Anyways, this map does demonstrate the number of teams that are within close proximity of the horizon and the number of quality teams as well. Surely, one will jump aboard perhaps even two.
Tulsa is placed where OKC should be. not accurate...
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 17, 2013, 10:31:10 PM
Tulsa is placed where OKC should be. not accurate...
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9489/oralroberts.png)
Oh come on, it's like 3 and a half pixels off.
Also, googling Murray State University in Google Maps gave me 3000 Irvin Cobb Dr, Paducah, KY, so it's really accurate if you're going by that random address.
----------
Anyways, here's the new map. Used Yellow circles instead of gold. Added Robert Morris. Made Summit/OVC schools that aren't too important, but put them next to smaller dots and labeled them in smaller text. Labeled all the MVC schools. If anyone wants the SVG, just PM me your email address. I'm using Inkscape.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2105/valporadar2.png)
Quote from: a3uge on April 18, 2013, 12:37:18 AMOh come on, it's like 3 and a half pixels off.
(http://forums-cdn.appleinsider.com/2/2d/2dc484ee_haters-gonna-hate-18.jpeg)
Quote from: a3uge on April 17, 2013, 10:00:31 PMnot too sure we want to take on a program with another
come on, now, if Detroit can pull that [stuff]...is the HL in any place to stow thrones?
(http://www.savagechickens.com/images/chickenstones.jpg)
Quote from: a3uge on April 17, 2013, 10:00:31 PM
Not too sure about adding Northern Kentucky this year... http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2058557 (http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2058557)
Quote from: classof2014 on April 17, 2013, 09:33:41 PM
Quote from: valpotx on April 17, 2013, 09:28:07 PM
Yes, Depaul sucks, but as long as they are pulling in the $ they are in the better conferences, they will never leave. Northern Kentucky doesn't look that bad as an option with Oakland to get to 10. They have solid facilities and are committed
Agreed. Both Oakland and Northern Kentucky would be making big jumps in the strength of their conference and both are within our demographics. Northern Kentucky being from the Kentucky side of Cincinnati so they aren't too far from Dayton and Oakland are the northern neighbors of Detroit. Think it would be a good fit. Only time will tell though.
FWIW -- NKU Facilities: Beautiful 9,400 permanent chairback seat arena (Bank of KY Center), separate BB practice facility and VB venue (1800 seats - kind of a mini-ARC), a gorgeous $6 million 1,000 seat concrete soccer stadium with 1000 sq.ft. luxury lounge and artificial turf playing surface, great BB and SB fields with 500 seat capacities. Most of these are either new or newly refurbished since 2008. BTW they have T&F but no on-campus track.
http://nkunorse.com/sports/2012/10/5/GEN_1005125048.aspx?tab=facilities (http://nkunorse.com/sports/2012/10/5/GEN_1005125048.aspx?tab=facilities)
Quote from: a3uge on April 17, 2013, 10:00:31 PMNot too sure about adding Northern Kentucky this year... http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2058557 (http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2058557) With one scandal already looming in the Horizon, not too sure we want to take on a program with another. I will update dat map later. Going to look at some eastern teams and indicate the rest of the OVC. Thanks for the suggestions.
It really sounds like AD didn't stand for athletic director at Northern Kentucky. ;)
Love the map...I would add Niagara and Canisius from the Buffalo NY area.
Let's just lock down what we have at this point and add Oakland. Nice location and baseball team. Also a good area for Valpo alumni.
Out of the box thinking here and I've mentioned this before:
Pursue Northern Illinois.
They might be able to get special permission to play football-only in the MAC. They aren't a good travel partner for other MACs in non-football. Travel for the non-football sports from DeKalb has to be a pain the rump. They fit the Horizon footprint much better.
Quote from: historyman on April 18, 2013, 07:33:41 AM
It really sounds like AD didn't stand for athletic director at Northern Kentucky. ;)
Apparently doesn't stand for ED either :rotfl:
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 18, 2013, 08:49:04 AM
Love the map...I would add Niagara and Canisius from the Buffalo NY area.
+1
and...
distance between Tulsa, OK and Valparaiso, IN - 711 miles
distance between Fargo, ND and Valparaiso, IN - 696 miles
distance between Philadelphia, PA and Valparaiso, IN - 719 miles
Where's Drexel, um, I mean Robert Morris' potential travel partner?
Forget about attracting MAC and MVC schools. Why would they leave for Horizon? Oakland and IUPUI are the best choices for geography, recent Big Dance participation, academics, etc. Many here seem to believe facilities are not an issue, and if they are, IUPUI has great facilities other than basketball and they could play more games at Banker's Life Field house and travel with WSU.
Quote from: Valpo71 on April 18, 2013, 11:27:38 AM
Forget about attracting MAC and MVC schools. Why would they leave for Horizon? Oakland and IUPUI are the best choices for geography, recent Big Dance participation, academics, etc. Many here seem to believe facilities are not an issue, and if they are, IUPUI has great facilities other than basketball and they could play more games at Banker's Life Field house and travel with WSU.
Absolutely not IUPUI. They bring nothing to the table in basketball, and got rid of baseball in 2000-2001. The recent big dance experience you mention for them was way back in 2002-2003.
Quote from: historyman on April 17, 2013, 06:46:58 PM
Also Murray State is within a few miles of the Tennessee line.
About 3 or 4. When I was at MSU in the early 90s, we'd drive just across the line into TN to a place called Mack's. Guy was a genius. He openened a drive through liquor store literally feet into TN. Calloway County KY (home of MSU) was dry at the time, so on weekends cars would be backed up past campus on the main road heading down to Mack's. He's got to be a billionaire by now
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Murray,+KY&hl=en&ll=36.611118,-88.313599&spn=1.289711,1.766052&sll=41.475425,-87.053415&sspn=0.07524,0.110378&oq=Murray&t=m&hnear=Murray,+Calloway,+Kentucky&z=9
I think our two best options are Robert Morris and Oakland.
Robert Morris has been in the tourney recently and I believe and 2 out of their past 3 seasons have been 20+ win seasons and they have been in the tournament recently as well. Yes, they are further from Valpo but they are only 60 miles from YSU and not too far from CSU or WSU. They'd be a good team to fill one of our 2 voids.
Same goes for Oakland, they had a bit of a down year this year but they've been to the ncaa recently and won a games as well. They're obviously real close to Detroit thus fitting perfectly within the Horizon.
Right now I'd like to see the HL approach these two schools. I think Oakland will be a lot easier to convince than Robert Morris at this point but it'll be worth a shot. They're a good team and would help our conference, not to mention bring in the Pittsburgh market as well.
In my opinion I see Valpo playing Oakland twice next season, I believe the HL will be back up to nine teams. 10 is a bit of a stretch but I wouldn't be surprised if we do get a tenth. I think we need to try to get one team to sign on now and if another team comes along that's just a big bonus.
Adding Oakland is a no-brainer at this point. We are down to 8 teams......only 5 that play baseball. They want in. They are an upgrade to Loyola in MBB and they have baseball. They fit the geographic footprint. It is a win-win. Good for them and good for us. If this isn't officially announced by July 1st then LeCrone is officially incompetent and should be removed from office immediately. If we add a 10th program that makes sense, great. If not, we at least need to replace Loyola since there is a logical choice just sitting out there waiting for the invitation. How hard can it be? Is LeCrone afraid of commitment? Just make the damn invitation already so we can move on.
We were told at the beginning of the year that a big announcement was coming in March regarding HL expansion. There were hints that it was big (like we were adding 3 teams that everyboby was going to like). There was published speculation in multiple sources that it was Oakland, Belmont and Evansville. We were led to believe that it was a "done deal" with negotiations finalized, invitations extended and accepted, and just pending the public official announcement after basketball season. March came and went with nary a comment. Then, the next thing we know we are losing team(s) to the MVC which ultimately proved to be Loyola.
All HL member schools should be very alarmed with everything that has transpired with conference membership (I.e. nothing) since B____r left.
I guess that I now have the impression that LeCrone is just playing his fiddle while the HL is burning. And I will have this impression until I see evidence to the contrary.
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:41:47 PMWe were told at the beginning of the year that a big announcement was coming in March regarding HL expansion
... by the Wright State A.D. who probably talked out of school, so to speak. Nobody in the HL office said any such thing that I can recall.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 18, 2013, 02:49:41 PM
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:41:47 PMWe were told at the beginning of the year that a big announcement was coming in March regarding HL expansion
... by the Wright State A.D. who probably talked out of school, so to speak. Nobody in the HL office said any such thing that I can recall.
But it is safe to say that the WSU AD was getting that from somewhere in the Hl Office. I doubt that he just made that up out of the thin air.
Just think if it was UIC that bolted for the MVC as originally speculated. Then we would be down to four baseball schools next season putting us in DESPERATION mode to add two baseball programs to avoid losing our automatic bid. That impacts over 140 current HL baseball student athletes and is not acceptable. It cannot be rationalized in any way.
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:53:57 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 18, 2013, 02:49:41 PM
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:41:47 PMWe were told at the beginning of the year that a big announcement was coming in March regarding HL expansion
... by the Wright State A.D. who probably talked out of school, so to speak. Nobody in the HL office said any such thing that I can recall.
But it is safe to say that the WSU AD was getting that from somewhere in the Hl Office. I doubt that he just made that up out of the thin air.
I would have hoped so, but I think he was speaking out of school at best. Of course, this kind of thing happens in politics all the time, but I'm not sure how using one of the ADs to float a trial balloon benefits LeCrone. The other interpretation is that the WSU AD has been so impatient that he misinterpreted something that was said in closed-door preseason meetings and couldn't contain himself. The virtue of that interpretation is that we've seen the rationale for it written about recently in the Dayton Daily News with respect -- not to basketball, but to baseball, which it appears he feels is WSU's marquee sport.
Don't forget, when the original announcement was supposed to be made, basketball conferences were being poached at rapid rates, plus the Big East was putting their stuff together to announce the New Big East forming with the 7 Catholic schools, then other schools started jumping. This stopped the original announcement from being made, in case one of the schools we talked to got poached out from under us.
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:41:47 PMAdding Oakland is a no-brainer at this point. We are down to 8 teams......only 5 that play baseball. They want in. They are an upgrade to Loyola in MBB and they have baseball. They fit the geographic footprint. It is a win-win. Good for them and good for us. If this isn't officially announced by July 1st then LeCrone is officially incompetent and should be removed from office immediately. If we add a 10th program that makes sense, great. If not, we at least need to replace Loyola since there is a logical choice just sitting out there waiting for the invitation. How hard can it be? Is LeCrone afraid of commitment? Just make the damn invitation already so we can move on.
Detroit still has a veto, right?
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:41:47 PMThere was published speculation in multiple sources that it was Oakland, Belmont and Evansville
By 'published speculation in multiple sources' you really mean a UWM fan blogger who just made a report that the UIC to the MVC was a done deal.
It wasn't the Wright State athletic director. If anyone has a source on this, I'd love to see it because I sure can't find it.
http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=217 (http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=217)
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/9/27/3418698/horizon-expansion-candidates-oakland-evansville-belmont-rumor (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/9/27/3418698/horizon-expansion-candidates-oakland-evansville-belmont-rumor)
Quote from: agibson on April 18, 2013, 05:18:02 PM
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:41:47 PMAdding Oakland is a no-brainer at this point. We are down to 8 teams......only 5 that play baseball. They want in. They are an upgrade to Loyola in MBB and they have baseball. They fit the geographic footprint. It is a win-win. Good for them and good for us. If this isn't officially announced by July 1st then LeCrone is officially incompetent and should be removed from office immediately. If we add a 10th program that makes sense, great. If not, we at least need to replace Loyola since there is a logical choice just sitting out there waiting for the invitation. How hard can it be? Is LeCrone afraid of commitment? Just make the damn invitation already so we can move on.
Detroit still has a veto, right?
Not all by themselves, no. And, it is fair to suspect that they have plenty of other problems on their plate besides keeping Oakland out of the HL this time around.
Quote from: a3uge on April 18, 2013, 05:37:14 PM
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:41:47 PMThere was published speculation in multiple sources that it was Oakland, Belmont and Evansville
By 'published speculation in multiple sources' you really mean a UWM fan blogger who just made a report that the UIC to the MVC was a done deal.
It wasn't the Wright State athletic director. If anyone has a source on this, I'd love to see it because I sure can't find it.
http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=217 (http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=217)
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/9/27/3418698/horizon-expansion-candidates-oakland-evansville-belmont-rumor (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/9/27/3418698/horizon-expansion-candidates-oakland-evansville-belmont-rumor)
Read the "Welcome to the Horizon League Oakland, Belmont, and Evansville" thread under Horizon League to catch up on this topic. You are confusing two topics and the related time lines.
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 06:48:46 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 18, 2013, 05:37:14 PM
Quote from: Valposter on April 18, 2013, 02:41:47 PMThere was published speculation in multiple sources that it was Oakland, Belmont and Evansville
By 'published speculation in multiple sources' you really mean a UWM fan blogger who just made a report that the UIC to the MVC was a done deal.
It wasn't the Wright State athletic director. If anyone has a source on this, I'd love to see it because I sure can't find it.
http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=217 (http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=217)
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/9/27/3418698/horizon-expansion-candidates-oakland-evansville-belmont-rumor (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/9/27/3418698/horizon-expansion-candidates-oakland-evansville-belmont-rumor)
Read the "Welcome to the Horizon League Oakland, Belmont, and Evansville" thread under Horizon League to catch up on this topic. You are confusing two topics and the related time lines.
Dude, you literally referenced the same link as I just did in the "Welcome to the Horizon League Oakland, Belmont, and Evansville" thread: http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1146.0 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1146.0) In the thread, you combined a Bob Grant interview (not printed by any source as far as I could find) and a rumor by PantherU (the UWM blogger that said UIC to MVC was a done deal), and speculated that Grant was referring to Evansville, Oakland, and Belmont. So no, I'm not confusing two topics, and am not confusing the timelines.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 18, 2013, 06:14:49 PM
Quote from: agibson on April 18, 2013, 05:18:02 PM
Detroit still has a veto, right?
Not all by themselves, no. And, it is fair to suspect that they have plenty of other problems on their plate besides keeping Oakland out of the HL this time around.
Is that right? Is it a straight vote?
I thought somehow there was a built-in veto for schools in the same market. e.g. Oakland couldn't join unless Detroit signed off, even if the other 7/8/9 schools voted in favor.
I don't have a great source for it, just now.
http://oaklandpostonline.com/2013/04/04/sports/oakland-to-horizon-its-not-a-done-dea/ (http://oaklandpostonline.com/2013/04/04/sports/oakland-to-horizon-its-not-a-done-dea/)
at least describes a veto, casually.
Quote from: agibson on April 19, 2013, 10:07:54 AM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 18, 2013, 06:14:49 PM
Quote from: agibson on April 18, 2013, 05:18:02 PM
Detroit still has a veto, right?
Not all by themselves, no. And, it is fair to suspect that they have plenty of other problems on their plate besides keeping Oakland out of the HL this time around.
Is that right? Is it a straight vote?
I thought somehow there was a built-in veto for schools in the same market. e.g. Oakland couldn't join unless Detroit signed off, even if the other 7/8/9 schools voted in favor.
I don't have a great source for it, just now.
http://oaklandpostonline.com/2013/04/04/sports/oakland-to-horizon-its-not-a-done-dea/ (http://oaklandpostonline.com/2013/04/04/sports/oakland-to-horizon-its-not-a-done-dea/)
at least describes a veto, casually.
According to this blogger the veto can be overridden by a majority vote of the other conference members:
http://www.bloguin.com/runthefloor/2012-articles/may/by-the-numbers-is-oakland-perfect-for-the-horizon-league.html (http://www.bloguin.com/runthefloor/2012-articles/may/by-the-numbers-is-oakland-perfect-for-the-horizon-league.html)
I have come to be very wary of anything these amateur bloggers state "as fact," so take it for what it's worth. Someone like BigDWSU would probably be a better source for something like this.
Quote from: wh on April 19, 2013, 10:45:51 AMAccording to this blogger the veto can be overridden by a majority vote of the other conference members:
That could well be. But then the "veto" begins to sound awfully similar to a "vote".
Here's something concrete. This is from 2009-10, so some things might well have changed post-Butler.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ilch/genrel/auto_pdf/HLHandbook.pdf (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ilch/genrel/auto_pdf/HLHandbook.pdf)
But, it had
"New members shall be admitted subject to the approval of two-thirds (2/3) of the Voting Directors of the Board; provided, however, a Voting Director may veto a membership invitation to an institution located geographically within twenty-five (25) miles of the member institution which the vetoing director represents. This veto, however, may be . overridden by an unanimous vote of the Voting Directors whose institutions they represent are located beyond twenty-five (25) miles from the prospective institution."
So, there is (or at least was) a veto. It can be overridden. It takes a unanimous vote of the members further than 25 miles away.
Quote from: agibson on April 19, 2013, 12:54:49 PMBut then the "veto" begins to sound awfully similar to a "vote".
especially if you're dyslexic
Quote from: agibson on April 19, 2013, 12:58:29 PM
Here's something concrete. This is from 2009-10, so some things might well have changed post-Butler.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ilch/genrel/auto_pdf/HLHandbook.pdf (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ilch/genrel/auto_pdf/HLHandbook.pdf)
But, it had
"New members shall be admitted subject to the approval of two-thirds (2/3) of the Voting Directors of the Board; provided, however, a Voting Director may veto a membership invitation to an institution located geographically within twenty-five (25) miles of the member institution which the vetoing director represents. This veto, however, may be . overridden by an unanimous vote of the Voting Directors whose institutions they represent are located beyond twenty-five (25) miles from the prospective institution."
So, there is (or at least was) a veto. It can be overridden. It takes a unanimous vote of the members further than 25 miles away.
I remember now. There was a discussion earlier, and someone said that Oakland is just beyond the 25-mile radius so that UDM could not veto but had to wrangle Loyola and Butler (both gone now!) into joining them with a No vote.
I have to admit that I also heard from a pretty reliable source that the Oakland, Bellmont and Evansville move looked like it might happen for the HL. I was also told that the one kink in this scenario was the Detroit veto and that they were still trying to keep Oakland out. I was surprised that Evansville would look to get out of the MVC so personally I wondered about this report. Who knows now what might happen, it appears that anything goes. I would not have thought that the MVC would replace Creighton with Loyola.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 19, 2013, 03:17:49 PMThere was a discussion earlier, and someone said that Oakland is just beyond the 25-mile radius so that UDM could not veto but had to wrangle Loyola and Butler (both gone now!) into joining them with a No vote.
The blog mentioned earlier was suggesting that it would be within the radius as the crow flies, but outside the radius by road. Not sure if there's been any official determination.
LeCrone statement about Loyola leaving:
http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/horizon-league-statement-concerning-loyola-university-chicago.html (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/horizon-league-statement-concerning-loyola-university-chicago.html)
"We will also continue to work proactively and aggressively on our internal and external growth plans."
I don't quite understand what "internal and external" means? Any thoughts?
Quote from: wh on April 19, 2013, 07:37:03 PM
LeCrone statement about Loyola leaving:
http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/horizon-league-statement-concerning-loyola-university-chicago.html (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/horizon-league-statement-concerning-loyola-university-chicago.html)
"We will also continue to work proactively and aggressively on our internal and external growth plans."
I don't quite understand what "internal and external" means? Any thoughts?
Internal - get one or more of our current members to add baseball
External - add new members to the conference
Hopefully Detroit adds baseball again, as it has been talked about for years. I don't see GB or Cleveland State adding the sport anytime soon
"internal growth" could also be qualitative not quantitative, as in, 'help some programs to stop stinkin' so hard'.
According to the article below, the Sun Belt approached Indiana State about joining their conference. I'm not sure whether it was a football only discussion but I suppose an article like this, if it is accurate, at least begs the question of whom else the Sun Belt is talking to and whether those talks are for either full or partial membership.
http://m.tribstar.com/TTS/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=VoFcqbS8&full=true#display (http://m.tribstar.com/TTS/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=VoFcqbS8&full=true#display)
I'm wondering whether it will be a wave of FCS move ups that will be the next cause of conference shifts over the next few years at the mid-major level. Yes, the Big East and the A-10 will still most likely make moves but what after? If FCS football is in play, IMO, the HL is better served at this time by moving toward the acceptance of non-football (or non scholarship football) schools. A school like Drexel would make perfect sense in this regard, although they offer a few sports that the HL doesn't sponsor. NKU, Belmont, Oral Roberts and Oakland would also make sense. Murray would be out in this analysis, but a non-scholarship football school like Morehead could be included in this discussion. It will be interesting to see what, if anything the HL does.
Post on Loyola board:
I will be truly interested to read my Pals' comments as I do NOT know the finer points of the game. I do know this, A Coach will put in HIS system as much as he can, but is sometimes governed by what he has at any given time. PM had Ben and Jordan--now he does not--OK, he is paid to coach-and WIN . If he coaches well, against the MVC, with what he recruited, he will be doin' what he is paid to do. I really have a good feeling about him, the team , and being im a Conference that is better than the NINTH of this past year.
How can we go on without wisdom such as this? ;)
Well, now we know where 'Sader went.
It's been barely mentioned, which surprises me, but my main reaction to all this is that the complexion of the Horizon league has now changed in way that no longer fits Valpo. Just a couple years ago, the HL was a balanced, if not slightly disjointed, mix of large-ish state schools and smaller private schools. With the exeunt of Butler and Loyola, the mix is now terribly off balance. Adding Oakland would bring in yet another public school and make things worse. State school, state school, state school, Valpo, state school, state school ... square peg, round hole ... (and it's not a superiority thing, just a "fit" thing). And from a marketing standpoint, there's an image-by-association thing. Will our "brand" and "identity" be too linked to public / state schools and lead to inaccurate perceptions and confusion away from whatever picture the university is spending precious publicity dollars to paint to the contrary?
30,000 - Milwaukee State (UWM)
27,000 - UIC
19,000 - Oakland
17,000 - Wright State
16,000 - Youngstown State
15,000 - Cleveland State
7,000 - UWGB
6,000 - Detroit Mercy
4,000 - Valpo
Sure, someone's gotta be smallest, that's not the point. A conference with seven public schools and six 15,000+ enrollments is not where we belong. (Or six and five w/o Oakland.) It was totally different with private schools Butler and Loyola in the mix, but their absence is a game changer. I'm surprised this is not a bigger concern for everyone -- it is for me.
Quote from: rink on April 24, 2013, 11:48:55 PM
It's been barely mentioned, which surprises me, but my main reaction to all this is that the complexion of the Horizon league has now changed in way that no longer fits Valpo. Just a couple years ago, the HL was a balanced, if not slightly disjointed, mix of large-ish state schools and smaller private schools. With the exeunt of Butler and Loyola, the mix is now terribly off balance. Adding Oakland would bring in yet another public school and make things worse. State school, state school, state school, Valpo, state school, state school ... square peg, round hole ... (and it's not a superiority thing, just a "fit" thing). And from a marketing standpoint, there's an image-by-association thing. Will our "brand" and "identity" be too linked to public / state schools and lead to inaccurate perceptions and confusion away from whatever picture the university is spending precious publicity dollars to paint to the contrary?
30,000 - Milwaukee State (UWM)
27,000 - UIC
19,000 - Oakland
17,000 - Wright State
16,000 - Youngstown State
15,000 - Cleveland State
7,000 - UWGB
6,000 - Detroit Mercy
4,000 - Valpo
Sure, someone's gotta be smallest, that's not the point. A conference with seven public schools and six 15,000+ enrollments is not where we belong. (Or six and five w/o Oakland.) It was totally different with private schools Butler and Loyola in the mix, but their absence is a game changer. I'm surprised this is not a bigger concern for everyone -- it is for me.
Well what's your solution? The OVC is all public minus Belmont and the Summit is entirely public. So Valpo couldn't even move down a conference to fit that criteria unless they start playing teams in Texas or New York. At this point I don't care if Valpo is in the same conference as some commuter schools, I just don't want the Horizon to turn into a joke. If that means adding another public school like Murray State, I'm for it... as opposed to waiting for a private school from Tulsa to join so we can feel better about ourselves.
Quote from: rink on April 24, 2013, 11:48:55 PMSure, someone's gotta be smallest, that's not the point. A conference with seven public schools and six 15,000+ enrollments is not where we belong. (Or six and five w/o Oakland.) It was totally different with private schools Butler and Loyola in the mix, but their absence is a game changer. I'm surprised this is not a bigger concern for everyone -- it is for me.
I'm afraid I have no idea why this should matter. Saying the conference is imbalanced now is meaningless to me -- not because I can't do the math, I can -- but because I have no idea why the distinction you bring out is important.
Beyond athletics themselves, I'm ignorant of why conference affiliation is important. All I care about is the strength of the basketball teams in the conference and how that impacts the Valpo basketball team. I do actually care that the conference not lose its baseball autobid, but I have to admit I care less about that than I do about basketball.
I could care less about us being the smallest and one of two private schools in the HL. Right now that doesn't matter, we need schools and fast. I'm not willing to wait for a small private school with good basketball to come to the HL. I think our two best options at this very moment might be Oakland which is a public school of 16,000 or Northern Kentucky a public school of 13,000. They both fall within the HL's demographics and the geography makes sense. Yes, Oral Roberts is a good, small, private school but it's all the way in Tulsa. Which is way too far and I wouldn't want them in the HL.
I don't care if Valpo is out numbered 1 to 5 by the public schools or if we're the smallest school in the conference. If you just look at DI schools in general a majority are way larger than Valpo and public. Let's not forget no matter where we go we'll probably be the smallest school, only 3,000 undergrads.
The HL needs to make a move and if they're limiting themselves to small private schools right now... what a terrible idea.
The MVC taking Loyola is a punch in the gut to Valpo for many reasons. The private-public balance is a small one, but not a major one.
Valpo still has a strong enough national "brand" thanks to Axe and "the shot". We can take a couple more years of commuter school associations. Actually, for the next year or two, Valpo may BENEFIT from staying in the Horizon and its easier-than-MVC path to the NCAA. To the extent that non-fan audiences follow conference standings as part of Valpo's "image", at least we are linked with WI, MI, OH, and IL. The big problem is that we are risking losing out on the NCAA money a better conference would bring.
Stop and remember that as late as 2005 we were identified with Utah, Louisiana, Oklahoma, and Kansas City schools......not to mention Gents, and T-Birds, and Kangaroos.....Oh My!! The three lowest points in Valpo conference memories were worse than Loyola/MVC news.
1994-Valpo and Western Illinois are orphaned and left for dead. 2002 The Horizon adds a 10th school......drum rolll.....Youngstown St., a team Valpo beat regularly in most sports. 2003 or 2004 The Mid-Con rolls up its sleeves to replace YSU and adds........Centenary!
The answer RINK is the A-10/14. It is filled with Private schools and it does matter who we associate with because of resources. You want "like-minded" and "Like-runned" schools. We have lots more in common with the Duquenses, Daytons and St Joes than we do with WSU, YSU, UIC, etc. Our priorities and our funding are similar. I have said for years there needed to be a "Christian" based conference. The Catholic err New Big Least at least has that going for them and would be another option, although Butler and DePaul probably don't want another program that would consistently beat them (easy Butler defenders that's Sarcasm-intended ("SI"). However, that's why I am hesitant to go jumping to the MVC, it's another conference without a good balance of private/public right now.
In a conference filled with large state schools, Duke (A small private school) has really struggled in basketball and other sports as well.
Quote from: chef on April 25, 2013, 02:09:46 PMIn a conference filled with large state schools, Duke (A small private school) has really struggled in basketball and other sports as well.
(http://www.vh1.com/celebrity/bwe/images/2011/03/nod.gif)
although not struggling enough for MY TASTES
Quote from: valpo84 on April 25, 2013, 10:06:14 AM
The answer RINK is the A-10/14. It is filled with Private schools and it does matter who we associate with because of resources. You want "like-minded" and "Like-runned" schools. We have lots more in common with the Duquenses, Daytons and St Joes than we do with WSU, YSU, UIC, etc. Our priorities and our funding are similar. I have said for years there needed to be a "Christian" based conference. The Catholic err New Big Least at least has that going for them and would be another option, although Butler and DePaul probably don't want another program that would consistently beat them (easy Butler defenders that's Sarcasm-intended ("SI"). However, that's why I am hesitant to go jumping to the MVC, it's another conference without a good balance of private/public right now.
If we're assuming that the A-10 is even considering looking this far west with SLU and UD's potential move to the Big East, forgetting facilities for a moment, from a geography standpoint what really hurts a school like VU as far as the A-10 is concerned is the lack of a close proximity private school travel partner, IMO. Valpo is geographically awkward in this analysis in that it is located in "small town Indiana" but is aligned with the monstrous Chicagoland metropolitan area and market. The only private school travel partner that was available for VU to pair itself with in this regard was LUC. Now that LUC is gone, there is no one left to pair with from this perspective. UIC is a non-counter because they are public. Assuming SLU moves to the Big East, VU would be placed on an outlier fringe whose location is not strong enough to allow it entrance by itself for these reasons.
IMO, the only way VU will ever join a conference comprised of entirely private schools as you suggest is if there is simultaneous movement from at least three different conferences that have a toe in the Midwestern footprint. The main catalyst would be all MVC scholarship football schools moving on an all sports level to an FBS conference like the Sun Belt, thus causing the remaining MVC private basketball schools to align with the other HL private schools, a school from the Southland (ORU), and/or Mid-Western schools from the A-10 if any are left, and then having them all break apart and merge. This would probably never happen anyway, but with WAC football dead, Elvis has left the building, IMO.
Quote from: valpo84 on April 25, 2013, 10:06:14 AMThe answer RINK
I assume you are answering my question, not rink's (since he seems to agree with you).
Quoteand it does matter who we associate with because of resources. You want "like-minded" and "Like-runned" schools.
Still not getting it. Do you mean that if we were on a more level playing field with other schools in terms of how much money we have to spend on athletics?
Can someone explain to me why the conference needs a public/private balance and why Valpo needs to be with "like-minded" schools with "similar priorities"?
What is the obsession with private schools sticking together? You're like a bunch of girls that can't go to the bathroom by themselves without company.
This wanting to achieve balance thing is just not making sense to me, especially when you're willing to compromise the strength of the conference. The MVC no doubt weakened itself to get the private school they wanted. They could have had good baseball NOW with UIC, and better basketball now with UIC, and better facilities NOW with UIC. But it had to be private.
How exactly is being one of two private schools in the HL hurting you? You're funding is near the top of the league. You're winning championships. Quit crying and go to the bathroom by yourself, dammit!
Quote from: BigDFromUIC on April 25, 2013, 07:34:39 PMWhat is the obsession with private schools sticking together?
As with individuals, so too organizations seek out their like for the kind of relationships that are mutually beneficial to both, since a pairing of interests strengthens both parties.
I would have thought this obvious, but since you're from UIC, perhaps not--you seem not to have noticed that we're going to the bathroom just fine, thank you very much, as, in fact, we
have been going
all over your crappy-ass teams.
Quote from: BigDFromUIC on April 25, 2013, 07:34:39 PM
They could have had better basketball now with UIC...
Lol
Quote from: BigDFromUIC on April 25, 2013, 07:34:39 PM
Can someone explain to me why the conference needs a public/private balance and why Valpo needs to be with "like-minded" schools with "similar priorities"?
What is the obsession with private schools sticking together? You're like a bunch of girls that can't go to the bathroom by themselves without company.
This wanting to achieve balance thing is just not making sense to me, especially when you're willing to compromise the strength of the conference. The MVC no doubt weakened itself to get the private school they wanted. They could have had good baseball NOW with UIC, and better basketball now with UIC, and better facilities NOW with UIC. But it had to be private.
How exactly is being one of two private schools in the HL hurting you? You're funding is near the top of the league. You're winning championships. Quit crying and go to the bathroom by yourself, dammit!
You'll have to pose your questions to the university Presidents. For some conferences, there is both an academic and athletic component to their make up. Perhaps the reasons why Loyola was chosen as a private institution are similar to the reasons why the Big Ten places an importance on AAU status for membership as an example.
Athletically, I would guess that Valpo might feel that it is at a disadvantage as a private school with respect to athletic funding if it is aligned with large public institutions. Our AD has gone on record in the past stating that he can't compete with the likes of Wright State, et. al., when it comes to allocating dollars for facility improvements.
Note that VU has only been aligned with two other private schools in its entire D-I history prior to joining the HL. VU has been going to the bathroom on its own just fine. Given this historical angle, it is still unclear to me whether VU really cares about this distinction in an athletic context. I don't think by virtue of simply hosting an MVC visit is there an indication one way or another in this respect.
Quote from: a3uge on April 25, 2013, 07:50:39 PMQuote from: BigDFromUIC on April 25, 2013, 07:34:39 PMThey could have had better basketball now with UIC...
Lol
What's so funny? Obviously I was comparing UIC to Loyola. I didn't say we had good basketball. I'm the first to admit we've had absolute sh!t basketball. But we've been better than Loyola. If you think otherwise, I'd love for you to break it down for me.
Quote from: BigDFromUIC on April 25, 2013, 09:58:04 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 25, 2013, 07:50:39 PMQuote from: BigDFromUIC on April 25, 2013, 07:34:39 PMThey could have had better basketball now with UIC...
Lol
What's so funny? Obviously I was comparing UIC to Loyola. I didn't say we had good basketball. I'm the first to admit we've had absolute sh!t basketball. But we've been better than Loyola. If you think otherwise, I'd love for you to break it down for me.
Loyola has had 7 losing seasons in the past 10 years vs. D-1 opponents. YSU has had the most in the league at 8, but have had winning seasons in each of the past 2 years. In effect, the MVC just "poached" the worst program or 2nd worst program in the HL, depending on how you look at it. The MVC thinks it got a diamond in the rough. So be it. From a HL standpoint, we just lost a bottom feeding program, while maintaining a presence in the Chicago market. We could have a lot worse problems to deal with than replacing Loyola.
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2013, 06:35:31 AMWe could have a lot worse problems to deal with than replacing Loyola.
...as we say in Naples, "99 problems, but the beach ain't one".
Quote from: chef on April 25, 2013, 02:09:46 PM
In a conference filled with large state schools, Duke (A small private school) has really struggled in basketball and other sports as well.
USC and Stanford appear to do OK in their conference as well.
Quote from: covufan on April 26, 2013, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: chef on April 25, 2013, 02:09:46 PM
In a conference filled with large state schools, Duke (A small private school) has really struggled in basketball and other sports as well.
USC and Stanford appear to do OK in their conference as well.
For Grins: UG Enrollments in Pvt schools by big-time conference.
ACC -- Wake 4,815, Duke 6,484, Notre Dame 8,371, BC 9,088, Miami 10,368, Syracuse 14,798, Pitt 18,400
B1G -- NU 8,400
Big 12 -- TCU 9,725, Baylor 12,575
SEC -- Vandy 6,700
PAC-12 -- Stanford 7,000, USC 17,400
Quote from: BigDFromUIC on April 25, 2013, 09:58:04 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 25, 2013, 07:50:39 PMQuote from: BigDFromUIC on April 25, 2013, 07:34:39 PMThey could have had better basketball now with UIC...
Lol
What's so funny? Obviously I was comparing UIC to Loyola. I didn't say we had good basketball. I'm the first to admit we've had absolute sh!t basketball. But we've been better than Loyola. If you think otherwise, I'd love for you to break it down for me.
It's comparing rotten apples to rotten apples.
Taking a full recruiting class cycle:
UIC's last 4 year RPI average: 263
Loyola's last 4 year RPI average: 236
Here's the RPI's over the last 4 years:
UIC: 169 299 291 291
Loyola: 222 310 197 213
Those are pretty terrible. In at least 6 years, there hasn't been a single MVC school to drop worse than a 275 RPI. UIC managed to do that three seasons in a row. Loyola pulling 300+ RPI is also horrible. Sagarin ratings had UIC worse than Loyola in each of the past 4 seasons (even this year). Same thing for the Kenpoms. BPI had UIC slightly better this year.
So which school has had better basketball? Does it really matter? It's like debating whether it's better to raise a family in East St. Louis or Camden.
you know, i'm pretty happy being myself, but if i were going to be anyone else on this board, i would pick a3uge in a flat second.
Remember when Valpo was being considered for the MVC?
Just for the sake of good conversation. Why does everyone think we didn't we get an invite? And could it still happen? If so when is the time frame? Sorry if this Thread brings back painful memories but its 4 years old and its interesting to look back at what folks were saying then.
Just saw this article in the Tribune Star, from when Valpo played in December. The writer discusses if Valpo is a fit for the MVC.
DOWN IN THE VALLEY: Valparaiso musings
By Todd Aaron Golden Tribune-Star • Valparaiso Dec 18, 2016
ISU-Valpo
Tribune-Star/Todd Golden
— It was my first trip to the Athletic and Recreation Center, the ARC as Valparaiso calls it. Until Saturday, it was the only Indiana Division I gym I hadn't been to. ISU dropped Valpo back in my early days on the beat. Why did ISU and Valpo not play for nearly a decade? To be honest, part of it was that Royce Waltman had zero use for long-time Valpo coach Homer Drew, and that's probably all I should say about that!
The ARC is a blend of Drake's Knapp Center and Eastern Illinois' Lantz Arena. That's not really a compliment. However, unlike either of those gyms (apart from 2007-08 at Drake), the atmosphere was better and credit to the Region residents (or Region Rats are they affectionately call themselves, but perhaps don't like being called by others) for ignoring the falling and eventually heavier snow that came down during the game.
Would Valpo fit in the MVC? I'm not sure. If Loyola is the standard, then I suppose Valpo fits. They're nominally in the Chicago market, although Valpo is long drive from Chicago proper (not even accounting for Dan Ryan or Skyway traffic), and count not a blip as far as Chicago's sports fans or media is concerned (though both NW Indiana dailies cover the Crusaders).
Unlike Loyola, Valpo has a recent tradition of winning, and seemingly, more enthusiasm. Their RPI is sky-high right now, and certainly on-the-court, the current Crusaders would be immediate MVC contenders.
Like Loyola, Valpo has a friendly vibe, right down to having one of the nuns help with pregame ceremonies.
Valpo would have a long way to go. The ARC would immediately be in last place in terms of basketball facilities. It's clear not much has been done to it since the 1980s. If WSU leaves, Valpo would certainly be on the expansion list again, as it was in 2013, but I think the MVC needs to spread its wings a bit too. If the MVC has to expand again, it shouldn't be a one-horse show anyway. I would bump membership up to 12.
http://www.tribstar.com/sports/down-in-the-valley-valparaiso-musings/article_b299c020-c4f8-11e6-bdfc-c78e07bf372c.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
current conference rankings have MVC as 12, summit league 17 and the HL 18. Take Wichita St (78) out and they are closer to the Summit and HL. Take Valpo (61) out and the HL is closer to the #21 Patriot League.
Regardless, the tournament would be at a more neutral location. The competitiveness of the league may not be huge but the moving of the conference tournament is a big enough reason to leave.
Quotecurrent conference rankings have MVC as 12, summit league 17 and the HL 18. Take Wichita St (78) out and they are closer to the Summit and HL. Take Valpo (61) out and the HL is closer to the #21 Patriot League.
Regardless, the tournament would be at a more neutral location. The competitiveness of the league may not be huge but the moving of the conference tournament is a big enough reason to leave.
I wish I could have a brutally honest conversation with Mark LaBarbera on the state of conference shifting and the state of the Horizon League and the potential of moving conferences. I respect the hell out of ML and doing what he's doing with the resources (or lack thereof) that the administration is giving him. A $250million fundraising and not a dime goes to your athletic department for new infrastructure to help better your athletics programs which is great PR for the schools reputation when their Men's basketball program does well. :crazy: If I ever win the lotto, I'd write a big fat check and say this goes towards a new or major renovation of the ARC (but before I'd sign the check I'd want a commitment from the top to get the ball rolling on it.)
I would just love to sit down with ML and have a brutally honest talk conferences and what the realities are.
As far fetched as it may seem, the A-10 is a much better conference and fit for Valpo. In the Sagarin's the A-10 is ranked 8th while The Valley is 10th. The Horizon? 20th. The A-10 has 6 schools ranked in the top 100 while The Valley has 2 just like the Horizon. Valpo is currently ranked 80th.
The A-10 has 10 private school members and 4 public while The Valley has 4 private and 6 public. From that standpoint both would be a much better fit than The Horizon.
Athletically, we would do fine in either conference. In the last five years we have had seven different team participate in the NCAA tournaments.
I believe that VU lost the chance to get into the MVC because of the lack of adequate practice and strength facilities. The arena seems to have not been a factor considering Loyola's arena size and the MVC's lack of concern about it. As for if we should accept a potential offer from them, it depends...if we are just replacing Wichita State, then no...unless there is a marked improvement in the quality of the remaining schools. If we are being added because they want to have 12 or more teams and Wichita State is staying, then I say YES!!! As for if we are a fit in the A-10, yes, but I don't see us getting an invite unless there is a wholesale purge of schools...and even then, they may like other coastal schools over us.
QuoteThe A-10 has 10 private school members and 4 public while The Valley has 4 private and 6 public.
I've actually thought this myself. Obviously, the Valley is a much better fit geographically and would be a terrific upgrade. But if an A-10 opportunity presented itself, Valpo should definitely pursue, for these reasons exactly. Also, while VU needs renovations to the ARC to be considered by any other league, the A-10 has a bunch of facilities in the same size range as VU (GW, Duquesne, St. Bona) or even smaller (St. Joe's, Fordham, LaSalle).
QuoteThe arena seems to have not been a factor considering Loyola's arena size and the MVC's lack of concern about it.
The arena size might not have been a factor, but the fact that the Gentile Arena was completely gutted and rebuilt from the ground up into a sparkling new facility (with a brand new seating bowl, new concourses, concessions, corporate and group entertainment areas and a state-of-the-art weight room) certainly was.
It is way past due that a stadium renovation is required and it can be a great facility for all students to use. I cannot understand how Valpo has such limited funding.
It's a fact that the top reason they took Loyola was picked was due to them being in Chicago.
Loyola also has better facilities than Valpo also. This needs to be addressed in order for Valpo to remain competitive
Newer/updated facilities would be nice and I hope to see more threads on this topic.
Keep in mind, this was BEFORE Valpo's second NCAA appearance while in the Horizon. Valpo had won the regular season twice, but hadn't won a single postseason game since the 90s (not counting the CBI win vs Washington). Valpo hadn't yet shown great consistently in men's basketball yet, let alone other sports that still struggle to this day.
True, their Loyola pick was assanine, and Valpo would probably have been an at-large for their conference by now (generating millions in terms of NCAA units), but Valpo hadn't really shown the league dominance yet.
Valpo's in a much better place now than it was in 2013, and has shown it can consistently win the league. They've beat ranked team (wish I could pluralize this lol) and NCAA at large teams. They've played NCAA tournament games at least close, and had success in the NIT.
Still haven't won an NCAA tourney game, but in the MVC, Valpo wouldn't have to worry about having multiple massive RPI drags and could be in better play for an at large. I think the MVC missed out back then, facilities be damned.
Quote from: M on January 24, 2017, 09:12:09 PM
Newer/updated facilities would be nice and I hope to see more threads on this topic.
Has this ever been discussed before?
Let me take a fresh (as of tonight) shot at this. I was just watching the Santa Clara game and thought it was live until the half lasted about 2 minutes. So I looked at the Santa Clara website and found the following: Santa Clara, who plays is the big time West Coast Conference with Gonzaga and St. Mary's, is a school with 5385 undergrads and was ranked by U.S. World Report similarly to Valpo, (No. 2 in West Regional Universities)
They have an endowment of $760 million (as of 2013) and just received a $100 million gift for STEM (wow!) So you would think that playing in the West Coast with a bigger enrollment than Valpo and a much bigger endowment would suggest first class athletic facilities. I watched the game. The place looks nice but seats only 4700 and the attendance for a conference game against Loyola Marymount? 1,793. Oh, by the way, they spent $26 million in 2000-2202for renovations to their 4700 seat facility. What would that cost today???
We are in a much better place with fan support and quality of team. We just aren't going to leverage our endowment to put $50 million into ARC renovations when we can't pack the current facility which proves continually to be a VERY difficult place for our visitors to play and/or win.
$26 million in 2002 with inflation conversion to 2016 would be about $35,000,000.
Keep in mind $26 million in Indiana goes much much further then it does in California for multiple factors: unions, much more regulation and red tape, etc. all greatly increase the cost of major construction projects.
Nicer facilities aren't the end all be all, but it certainly helps your chances to get into a better conference (will earn more $ down the road), attract better recruits (leads to deeper tourney runs = more $), better fan/alumni/student experience (better products means more butts in the seats), builds excitement in the fan base. Better basketball program adds more cache to the school (I can't tell you how many people know Valpo outside the Midwest just because the Basketball program).
Investing in academics always is the most important thing and always will be. I would just like to see President Heckler and the Board of Directors make a stronger push (or just any push...) to support its athletics or at least its bread winning sport the Men's basketball team. I came to Valpo in 2010 and since then I haven't really seen a strong backing by the administration to invest in the team. Since 2010 we've seen quite a bit of success for a mid-major program. I'd like the administration to ride the wave and back it a little more...
The couple main projects I've seen are the new Homer Drew Court which is very nice. The Track which was a very nice (and badly needed) gesture by an Alumni. I'm probably forgetting a thing or two. Mark LaBarbera is a great AD and I think has done everything he can do with the resources provided to him.
Vu2014 is very correct with his assessment. The basketball team has had great success and certainly helped Valpo's name recognition. I think the university needs to give some love back with some significant ARC renovations. If not, we will fall behind, and if not careful, fall back to the 80's. The university administration should not take the success of the basketball program for granted.
Again, what is Valpo's endowment? Are we that poor?
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 25, 2017, 10:50:08 AM
Vu2014 is very correct with his assessment. The basketball team has had great success and certainly helped Valpo's name recognition. I think the university needs to give some love back with some significant ARC renovations. If not, we will fall behind, and if not careful, fall back to the 80's. The university administration should not take the success of the basketball program for granted.
Again, what is Valpo's endowment? Are we that poor?
A couple of things. First, the Administration is committed to the basketball program. Can we afford 50 million on an ARC renovation? Probably not for the foreseeable future particularly given the need for a field house first. But, in case you didn't know it , Valpo was paying Bryce close to $500,000 and he was the highest paid employee at Valpo including President Heckler.
Here is something I posted last night on a different thread. Spending money won't be enough to get us where we want to be, witness Santa Clara:
Let me take a fresh (as of tonight) shot at this. I was just watching the Santa Clara game and thought it was live until the half lasted about 2 minutes. So I looked at the Santa Clara website and found the following: Santa Clara, who plays is the big time West Coast Conference with Gonzaga and St. Mary's, is a school with 5385 undergrads and was ranked by U.S. World Report similarly to Valpo, (No. 2 in West Regional Universities)
They have an endowment of $760 million (as of 2013) and just received a $100 million gift for STEM (wow!) So you would think that playing in the West Coast with a bigger enrollment than Valpo and a much bigger endowment would suggest first class athletic facilities. I watched the game. The place looks nice but seats only 4700 and the attendance for a conference game against Loyola Marymount? 1,793. Oh, by the way, they spent $26 million in 2000-2202 for renovations to their 4700 seat facility. What would that cost today???
We are in a much better place with fan support and quality of team. We just aren't going to leverage our endowment to put $50 million into ARC renovations when we can't pack the current facility which proves continually to be a VERY difficult place for our visitors to play and/or win.
QuoteAgain, what is Valpo's endowment? Are we that poor?
Valparaiso University endowment is $204 million as of 2015. More then Butler ($190.2M).
Renovations don't necessarily need to come from the endowment. Under President Heckler we have seen some amazing fundraising and extraordinary generosity from Alumni.
Say the fundraising goal is $20M renovation fundraising with a target date in 5 years. That is a very achievable goal in my opinion. It takes vision and vocal backing from the President Heckler and Board to get it done.
-Current undergrad student enrollment (increasing every year): about 4,500. Shifting of $20 of student tuition every years towards ARC renovations = 4,500 * $20 = 90,000 * 5yrs = $450,000 (puts a dent in fundraising goal).
-Sell naming rights of the ARC. South Dakota State built a new Sports Complex for $66M and sold the naming rights of the stadium for $20M. I wouldn't expect $20M for just renovating the ARC but a decent chunk of change. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/12/usds-new-arena-to-be-called-sanford-coyote-sports-/
-This could be a little controversial but they could sell beer at the concessions. There are much higher margins on a bottle of beer then a pop/soda. More colleges are selling beer at games now and its very profitable. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/beer-wine-sales-college-basketball-games-greg-gaskins
-If the University made it a priority I believe they could find an alumni or two to help take a dent out of the fundraising goal. I would very enthusiastically give a small donation to the cause. I'm not rich but I love Valpo Basketball and I'm willing to invest in our program. I'm sure if the University would proactively pursue the fundraising it and lay out a clear plan and goal many other would be willing to make a small donation.
-Nicer venue means you are more likely to be able to book bigger events like concerts and other events.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 25, 2017, 11:50:33 AM
QuoteAgain, what is Valpo's endowment? Are we that poor?
Valparaiso University endowment is $204 million as of 2015. More then Butler ($190.2M).
Renovations don't necessarily need to come from the endowment. Under President Heckler we have seen some amazing fundraising and extraordinary generosity from Alumni.
Say the fundraising goal is $20M renovation fundraising with a target date in 5 years. That is a very achievable goal in my opinion. It takes vision and vocal backing from the President Heckler and Board to get it done.
-Current undergrad student enrollment (increasing every year): about 4,500. Shifting of $20 of student tuition every years towards ARC renovations = 4,500 * $20 = 90,000 * 5yrs = $450,000 (puts a dent in fundraising goal).
-Sell naming rights of the ARC. South Dakota State built a new Sports Complex for $66M and sold the naming rights of the stadium for $20M. I wouldn't expect $20M for just renovating the ARC but a decent chunk of change. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/12/usds-new-arena-to-be-called-sanford-coyote-sports-/
-This could be a little controversial but they could sell beer at the concessions. There are much higher margins on a bottle of beer then a pop/soda. More colleges are selling beer at games now and its very profitable. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/beer-wine-sales-college-basketball-games-greg-gaskins
-If the University made it a priority I believe they could find an alumni or two to help take a dent out of the fundraising goal. I would very enthusiastically give a small donation to the cause. I'm not rich but I love Valpo Basketball and I'm willing to invest in our program. I'm sure if the University would proactively pursue the fundraising it and lay out a clear plan and goal many other would be willing to make a small donation.
-Nicer venue means you are more likely to be able to book bigger events like concerts and other events.
Well said. One small correction: The undergrad enrollment is not 4500, it is 3183. Add the 1261 grad and law students and you get to apx 4500.
Who here would start or join a group that commits to donating 5% of their pretax income towards improved athletic facilities at Valpo? If you are not willing to do that, you are essentially saying that you want something and you want someone else to pay for it.
QuoteWho here would start or join a group that commits to donating 5% of their pretax income towards improved athletic facilities at Valpo? If you are not willing to do that, you are essentially saying that you want something and you want someone else to pay for it.
I get people are sick of the, "Lets get a new ARC" talk. And the argument of if your not willing pay for it then don't expect it.
I think the greater overall discussion is that I/others would like to see a plan/goal/vision for a renovation from the administration. Have the athletic department set a timeline and goal amount for renovations and set up fundraising for it.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 25, 2017, 11:50:33 AMRenovations don't necessarily need to come from the endowment.
They more or less can't come from the endowment. The university's restricted as to what they can take from the endowment - it's probably at the few to five or so percent level. The idea is that the endowment is invested, and that you spend (some of?) the return on that investment without touching the principal. So that the principal is around in perpetuity.
It's not normal to spend endowment funds (certainly not in the tens of millions of $$) to build buildings. It's why we've had capital campaigns for construction, or in recent years why we've taken loans to fund construction projects.
Maybe the board could authorize an exception, but it's hard to imagine them wanting to spend tens of millions of endowment funds to build anything.
QuoteMaybe the board could authorize an exception, but it's hard to imagine them wanting to spend tens of millions of endowment funds to build anything.
Yeah the endowment is suppose to be the "rainy day' fund so if the economy came crashing down, the University would have a safety cushion to help it survive the rough time.
Although I think it's borderline hilarious the endowment amounts that some college/universities have like Harvard $37 billion. The endowment funds just sit there and accrue the investment income tax free. There have been proposed bills in Congress on both sides of the aisle to start taxing these endowment funds as a way to raise revenue for the Federal Gov. Not sure thats a wise idea, because when has Congress ever spent tax dollar responsibly? Probably nothing will come from that. I just find it ironic that many of these institutions are sky rocketing tuition prices on students while their endowments get fat and happy. Even UIC has over a $2.25B endowment and the state of Illinois is dead broke.
The University has determined its fundraising focus in the near term should be on the endowment rather than facilities. I think that is wise. As VU72 pointed out, the endowment for Santa Clara, a school similar to VU in several respects, is nearly 4 times more than the VU endowment. Simply stated, the size of our endowment puts us at a competitive disadvantage.
I suspect the building boom that VU has seen over the past 10 years is over and we are entering into a new phase that will emphasize the endowment and renovations for the dorms, which are aging and badly in need of some work (I would prefer new dorms -- who wouldn't? -- but the cash simply isn't available.) I mention the dorms simply because they are what President Heckler identified as the next renovation projects in his WVUR interview in December.
It is going to take a lead gift or two in order to make the rec center and ARC renovation happen. This isn't impossible -- there are people out there who can write the big check -- but I don't look for any type of campaign to raise funds for these buildings. Remember it took years to raise the necessary funds for the Union, and I submit the need for that building was even greater than the need for a rec center and a remodeled ARC.
Paul
Quote from: VU2014 on January 23, 2017, 12:49:48 PM
Quotecurrent conference rankings have MVC as 12, summit league 17 and the HL 18. Take Wichita St (78) out and they are closer to the Summit and HL. Take Valpo (61) out and the HL is closer to the #21 Patriot League.
Regardless, the tournament would be at a more neutral location. The competitiveness of the league may not be huge but the moving of the conference tournament is a big enough reason to leave.
I wish I could have a brutally honest conversation with Mark LaBarbera on the state of conference shifting and the state of the Horizon League and the potential of moving conferences. I respect the hell out of ML and doing what he's doing with the resources (or lack thereof) that the administration is giving him. A $250million fundraising and not a dime goes to your athletic department for new infrastructure to help better your athletics programs which is great PR for the schools reputation when their Men's basketball program does well. :crazy: If I ever win the lotto, I'd write a big fat check and say this goes towards a new or major renovation of the ARC (but before I'd sign the check I'd want a commitment from the top to get the ball rolling on it.)
I would just love to sit down with ML and have a brutally honest talk conferences and what the realities are.
Call the athletic dept. I'm sure he would have an honest conversation with you.
http://www.valpoathletics.com/athletics/staff/4679/mark-labarbera/#.WJM8qhsrLIU
219-464-6894
Quote from: M on January 24, 2017, 09:12:09 PM
Newer/updated facilities would be nice and I hope to see more threads on this topic.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mehdeuRPwb1qgh57wo1_400.gif)
Quote from: VU2014 on January 25, 2017, 11:50:33 AM
-Sell naming rights of the ARC. South Dakota State built a new Sports Complex for $66M and sold the naming rights of the stadium for $20M. I wouldn't expect $20M for just renovating the ARC but a decent chunk of change. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/12/usds-new-arena-to-be-called-sanford-coyote-sports-/
I've always wondered why there isn't a closer tie between VU and Thrivent Financial - the Lutheran-based financial investment organization who, by charter, must give back to its membership -- now expanded to include all "Christians" but originally was named the Aid Association for Lutherans (AAL). For the foreseeable future we will have the ARC right where it is, but there is no reason not to expand, renovate and sell the naming rights to the arena portion of the facility. Thrivent Arena makes a lot of sense to me. For both Valpo and Thrivent it would be a winning situation.
Like the Thrivent Arena thing!!
I love this idea...I mean Thrivent already does the retirement planning stuff for the faculty and staff I do believe. Make it happen fundraising department (I know you are reading this board).
QuoteLike the Thrivent Arena thing!!
Or Centier Bank... successfully, Region-based financial institution looking to continue growth.
And to loop this back to another discussion bemoaning the uneven attendance, I'd posit the fact that sitting in the high school bleachers on the south side of the arena is a sub-optimal Division I basketball fan experience and does nothing to help encourage casual fans to attend (which is what you need to fill the ARC in addition to diehards and students). Improve the facilities, improve the amenities that fans are getting for their ticket dollar, you improve attendance.
And don't tell me Gus wouldn't cream himself at the chance to hear "Family Express Arena" announced on TV 18 times a year.
They're budget probably isn't big enough based on all of the $0.25 beers I drank there while at Valpo but Duffy's Arena has a good ring to it.
Naming rights are helpful if we have an expansion/renovation project available. And, they are one of many funding sources for renovation. However, they may not be as lucrative or available as you all might believe. The below articles show some deals. Location/marketability of an arena is a critical component -- what are you selling and how is it valuable to the entity buying the rights. Naming rights deals are also not in high demand by advertisers/marketers unless the terms and benefits provide you with the value you are spending; or if you have a strong tie to the university or cause. Does the sponsor know how to maximize the value -- interactive, direct. consumer base it desires, integrated marketing, etc.? In 15 minutes of googling, here are a few articles and suppositions:
1. US Steel Yard in Gary (baseball park -- 50 dates a year) has done 2 10 year deals in its existence with US Steel. The most recent 10 years $2.3 million. So about $230,000 per year.
2. Resch Center Green Bay appears to have been around $4.875 million in 2002 when built. Additional terms were not quickly located, but this is a nearly 10,000 arena in a mid-sized town and an arena with a broader reach. Also, party providing funds (Mr. Resch) also had civic pride as a motivating factor.
3. Ford Center Evansville was $4.2 for 10 years. It is also the primary arena for a city somewhat like GB.
http://archive.courierpress.com/features/arena-to-be-named-ford-center-in-42-million-deal--poll-video-ep-445265469-324567251.html (http://archive.courierpress.com/features/arena-to-be-named-ford-center-in-42-million-deal--poll-video-ep-445265469-324567251.html)
4. Nutter Center at Wright State looks like about $2.8 million but exact terms weren't found. A more recent article says with financial issues at WSU, they are looking for $1 million for naming rights -- how long those would be for not discussed.
http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/nutter-center-naming-rights-among-possible-wsu-revenue-streams/zknAq7owQjkt2xjMgc4nnJ/ (http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/nutter-center-naming-rights-among-possible-wsu-revenue-streams/zknAq7owQjkt2xjMgc4nnJ/)
Experience has shown most deals are 10 years and vary in value based on size of arena/park, level of athletic competitions, size of the city/metro area and marketability in general of the occupants of the facility.
http://www.sportsvenues.com/rsv.php?menu=names (http://www.sportsvenues.com/rsv.php?menu=names)
Valpo is not a major regional draw or advertiser, is limited in TV exposure and the arena/city are not that big. The ARC is not the main venue or even a competing venue for events outside of basketball in the area. It doesn't host broader events, except Lutheran hoop tourney and the once in a blue moon concert or Phi Delt Boxing matches. Not to be a rain cloud, but unless you found someone like Gus who wants to put his name on the side or his company's then options are limited. Thrivent (f/n/a AAL) has been a natural fit, but someone needs to put together the marketing benefits analysis on why they should.
Quote from: VUOR63 on February 02, 2017, 12:23:09 PM
They're budget probably isn't big enough based on all of the $0.25 beers I drank there while at Valpo but Duffy's Arena has a good ring to it.
Or Jackson's!
QuoteValpo is not a major regional draw or advertiser, is limited in TV exposure and the arena/city are not that big. The ARC is not the main venue or even a competing venue for events outside of basketball in the area. It doesn't host broader events
With a renovation that gets the building up toward 6,000 seating capacity with full chairbacks, it becomes attractive to concert and show promoters as a venue of interest. So that would be another rationale for a renovation and extend the building's economic viability. As for naming rights, being in a smaller city is less of an issue if the purchasers of the naming rights know they are getting 2 hours of brand exposure on national TV 4-5 times per year plus regional TV exposure (or potentially more, if a conference move led to additional TV appearances). Yes, a smaller venue will have fewer cross-marketing opportunities on site than a baseball stadium, but the real value in the naming rights comes in broadcast and print media exposure.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 02, 2017, 03:35:40 PM
QuoteValpo is not a major regional draw or advertiser, is limited in TV exposure and the arena/city are not that big. The ARC is not the main venue or even a competing venue for events outside of basketball in the area. It doesn't host broader events
With a renovation that gets the building up toward 6,000 seating capacity with full chairbacks, it becomes attractive to concert and show promoters as a venue of interest. So that would be another rationale for a renovation and extend the building's economic viability. As for naming rights, being in a smaller city is less of an issue if the purchasers of the naming rights know they are getting 2 hours of brand exposure on national TV 4-5 times per year plus regional TV exposure (or potentially more, if a conference move led to additional TV appearances). Yes, a smaller venue will have fewer cross-marketing opportunities on site than a baseball stadium, but the real value in the naming rights comes in broadcast and print media exposure.
Although I concur with the basic premises of exposure in media, in our current state, what are the analytics on that exposure for regionally based businesses or national businesses? Can you tell the possible marketer -- we generated x million views in all forms of media? What is the average audience on ESPN 3 for one of our broadcasts? What is the average audience for an ESPN 2 Friday night HL tilt? What is our social media impressions for the "ARC?" Nationally, we would struggle even more with the business case. Further, regionally, we do not even have good TV broadcast coverage in the Chicagoland area that you could sell to Binny's, Thrivent, Allstate or even Walgreens. We already know that outside of NWI, the Chicago Tribune is not writing stories that begin with dateline -- Noah's ARC and Pet Supply Stores as they couldn't find the ARC if you spotted them the C and the A.
I also concur with you that if there were to be a renovation to 6000 decent type seats and suite boxes and concession stands and wash rooms, the facility could become the type of regional attraction that allows other facilities to garner around $2-4 million over 10 years. My general point is naming rights by themselves do not move the needle much for building the facility, but would be helpful in running the facility, especially if targeted concerts and Phi Delt intra-school and interfraternity boxing matches.
I love the idea of spotting the Chicago the C and the A to help them spell ARC! >:(
Wasn't that a Thomas Henderson quote about Terry Bradshaw?..and offered on Super Bowl Week? :thumbsup: .
QuoteAlthough I concur with the basic premises of exposure in media, in our current state, what are the analytics on that exposure for regionally based businesses or national businesses? Can you tell the possible marketer -- we generated x million views in all forms of media? What is the average audience on ESPN 3 for one of our broadcasts? What is the average audience for an ESPN 2 Friday night HL tilt? What is our social media impressions for the "ARC?" Nationally, we would struggle even more with the business case. Further, regionally, we do not even have good TV broadcast coverage in the Chicagoland area that you could sell to Binny's, Thrivent, Allstate or even Walgreens.
My larger point was that assuming that we play in a small town in a small arena, therefore no one would interested in naming rights is the wrong formula. It's all about how many times the brand would be on TV/radio/other media. And Valpo is on TV a lot now.
And impressions is a complex formula, but a single game on ESPN2 is going to have in the vicinity of a million viewers (obviously, some will be less and some will be more, but that's been the rule of thumb for MAC and Sun Belt games). A company logo on the court is going to be seen hundreds of times in the game, plus mentions by the announcers, score table ads, bench chairs, etc. Calculate the ad value for that and it's going to be WAY more cost-effective than trying to achieve that brand exposure through traditional advertising (which is way more expensive). Production of one high-quality TV spot plus buying airtime runs into the millions very quickly. As streaming has grown, audiences and advertising on ESPN3 have climbed, too.
And that doesn't count "bonus" exposure - SportsCenter highlights, etc. For example, think of Rowdy's buzzer beater vs. Green Bay a few years back. The repeated viewings on SC Top 10, Plays of the Week, viral videos, etc. would have been worth millions in free advertising for any company that had a logo/name on the court. There's a reason why companies continue to pay very good money for naming rights deals, even in some non-traditional venues.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 02, 2017, 06:03:16 PM
QuoteAlthough I concur with the basic premises of exposure in media, in our current state, what are the analytics on that exposure for regionally based businesses or national businesses? Can you tell the possible marketer -- we generated x million views in all forms of media? What is the average audience on ESPN 3 for one of our broadcasts? What is the average audience for an ESPN 2 Friday night HL tilt? What is our social media impressions for the "ARC?" Nationally, we would struggle even more with the business case. Further, regionally, we do not even have good TV broadcast coverage in the Chicagoland area that you could sell to Binny's, Thrivent, Allstate or even Walgreens.
My larger point was that assuming that we play in a small town in a small arena, therefore no one would interested in naming rights is the wrong formula. It's all about how many times the brand would be on TV/radio/other media. And Valpo is on TV a lot now.
And impressions is a complex formula, but a single game on ESPN2 is going to have in the vicinity of a million viewers (obviously, some will be less and some will be more, but that's been the rule of thumb for MAC and Sun Belt games). A company logo on the court is going to be seen hundreds of times in the game, plus mentions by the announcers, score table ads, bench chairs, etc. Calculate the ad value for that and it's going to be WAY more cost-effective than trying to achieve that brand exposure through traditional advertising (which is way more expensive). Production of one high-quality TV spot plus buying airtime runs into the millions very quickly. As streaming has grown, audiences and advertising on ESPN3 have climbed, too.
And that doesn't count "bonus" exposure - SportsCenter highlights, etc. For example, think of Rowdy's buzzer beater vs. Green Bay a few years back. The repeated viewings on SC Top 10, Plays of the Week, viral videos, etc. would have been worth millions in free advertising for any company that had a logo/name on the court. There's a reason why companies continue to pay very good money for naming rights deals, even in some non-traditional venues.
Do we need to start shaking down Homer for some money?
And before anyone says it -- I do know it's not where you play, it's who you play and how you play them. Just commenting on the where for now.
I made the annual trek to Milwaukee Panther Arena last night for the (now) annual VU win. It IS old. But all the seats have been replaced with cushioned chairs (compared to the wood with padding chairs I remember when I was there years ago. It has a very good scoreboard. The playing floor is attractive. Because of poor attendance of late, many of the upper seating sections were covered over. The whole south portion of the floor is converted to a raised boosters' booze club. The full capacity is listed at 12,700. Attendance last night was listed at 2267. I'd guess that the ~268 Valpo fans that were there helped put them over 2000, but generally you couldn't tell by the rather quiet rooting and polite clapping that came from the Valpo sections (just my take -- could be wrong).
BUT....... there is no mistaking that it IS an arena, not a gym. There are sufficient restrooms and concessions (I took a Blue Moon beer to my seat, yay!). Despite low attendance (outside of the UWM student section) it still FELT like a D-I basketball game and had that atmosphere. The pep band numbered 25 and was led by a member of the music department - not a student. In retrospect, I can now see much more clearly why many on this board refer to the ARC as a HS gym. Valpo will never build an arena anywhere as large as the Panther Arena (heck, it will never build any arena), but much in the way of renovations and an expansion to 6,000 would totally change the visual perception and game day experience to bring it, not necessarily totally, but certainly, more in line with a basketball venue reflective of our D-I status.
Tomorrow I drive up the road to the Resch Center in GB. It is even more modern. And UWGB will be waiting to even the score from earlier in the season. There should be a good crowd - better than UWM. It will be another game that has the feel of a real D-I event. Regardless of where we are playing, we gotta bring our A-game to win.
Some testy Flames fans...
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/828017566148878336
https://twitter.com/JordanDrew30/status/828026902485094401
https://twitter.com/UICChuck_A/status/828258607477186560
https://twitter.com/JordanDrew30/status/828262617575735297
https://twitter.com/UICChuck_A/status/828313825963290624
https://twitter.com/JordanDrew30/status/828315732677185536
https://twitter.com/UICChuck_A/status/828319713793081344
Apparently the 13 Illinois -Chicago fans got together this season and decided to troll us.
Interesting article on the Big East this morning in WSJ. You may need a subscription.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-ditching-football-saved-big-east-basketball-1487616324 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-ditching-football-saved-big-east-basketball-1487616324)
Yep. need a subscription. Could someone copy/paste the text?
According the MVC message board, if the mvc had to expand they would like Valpo. This has been brought up in the past. The fans and basketball people don't care about Valpo being a small private school. They don't care about the facilities. They don't care that our swim team is not competitve.
They want us because we make the men's basketball league stronger. They like that we have a top 100 rpi year in and year out. If the AD's and presidents of the mvc see it that way.....we could get a call.
QuoteAccording the MVC message board, if the mvc had to expand they would like Valpo. This has been brought up in the past. The fans and basketball people don't care about Valpo being a small private school. They don't care about the facilities. They don't care that our swim team is not competitve.
They want us because we make the men's basketball league stronger. They like that we have a top 100 rpi year in and year out. If the AD's and presidents of the mvc see it that way.....we could get a call.
A couple thoughts:
QuoteThe fans and basketball people don't care about Valpo being a small private school.
Fan and Basketball people may not care but Presidents and ADs do. They want revenue growth for the conference. Personally I think MVC should get over how small we are because we have a history of a successful Mid-Major and would boost the competitiveness to the Conference and instantly would become a contender in the MVC. Only Trick is that convincing ADs and Presidents.
QuoteThey don't care about the facilities.
ADs from other schools care. Valpo needs a new pool. Needs to build a field house and needs adequate strength & conditioning facilities.
QuoteThey don't care that our swim team is not competitive.
We'd have a successful swim team if we built a pool up to NCAA standards. Its flat out embarrassing. There are public schools in the poorest neighborhoods of Chicago that have better aquatic facilities then Valpo (I am not exaggerating when I say that). It's an embarrassment to the Athletics Department. And agreed they don't care about swim teams success. They care about the 'breadwinning' sports competitiveness and overall impact to the conference, AKA Mens Basketball.
QuoteThey want us because we make the men's basketball league stronger. They like that we have a top 100 rpi year in and year out. If the AD's and presidents of the mvc see it that way.....we could get a call.
I think the MVC as it stands right now is a step above the Horizon League, but MVC is not what it use to be after losing Creighton. Still a good mid-major conference but took a big hit losing Creighton.
The Crown Jewel of the MVC is Wichita State now and is a dominant force in the MVC and are by far the best team. There have been rumors that Wichita State wants a bid to the new 'Big East' Conference for a few years now and would jump at the opportunity to get a bid (what mid-major wouldn't?). Now I don't think Wichita State is a great fit being in the new Big East because its a Public University and Big East is mostly made up of Private Universities, which is a big deal to that specific conference. There are rumors that Wichita St wants to create a Football program again which complicates getting a bid from the Big East even more. Also geography is working against Wichita State moving conferences. But if the Big East lost a school the the ACC or some other larger conference they may be forced to add a Wichita St to the conference. With the power struggle going on with conferences the last 5-10 years its seems inevitable that we will see more shifting and conglomerating of conferences and seeing bigger conferences poaching schools.
My whole point is that I'm not sure I'd want to join the MVC if Wichita State wasn't apart of it from a mens basketball perspective. At the very least there is a case to be made. I don't know all the financials specifics, but I'm assuming the Valpo Athletics Department would get a boost of revenue if they joined the MVC. I'd tend to lean on lets jump on the opportunity of joining the MVC but if it were to lose Wichita St that would be a huge blow and if we were getting a bid because they left I don't know if I'd chose the MVC over the Horizon.
In a perfect world I'd love for Valpo to get an invite from the Big East but thats probably only when pigs can fly or if Valpo decided to double its enrollment over the next 10 years and decide to splurge on new athletics facilities and have the Mens basketball program go on a Butler type run. Then the 2nd choice would be a bid from the A-10 which is not likely either, for many of the same reasons. Then next choice would be a MVC. Then staying in then staying in the Horizon League, but I'd like them to swipe Belmont. If the Horizon could land Belmont and retain all membership and hopefully see a resurgence from many schools like Detroit, Milwaukee then the HL would be in much better shape. But thats a lot of 'IFs" and a lot of wishful thinking.
QuoteInteresting article on the Big East this morning in WSJ. You may need a subscription.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-ditching-football-saved-big-east-basketball-1487616324
QuoteYep. need a subscription. Could someone copy/paste the text?
I have a subscription. One copy/paste won't hurt anyone for the sake of discussion.
How Ditching Football Saved Big East BasketballThe conference is gambling that its hoops successes will pay dividends outstripping the football revenues the schools left behindBy DOM COSENTINO
Updated Feb. 20, 2017 1:49 p.m. ETIn the big-is-better, football-is-king world of modern college athletics, a group of regional Catholic schools four years ago tried something radical: a conference focused primarily on basketball.
And it seems the experiment is actually working.
The new Big East currently has three schools—Villanova (No. 2), Butler (No. 22) and Creighton (No. 23) ranked in the AP Top 25. Four others—Xavier, Marquette, Seton Hall and Providence—also have a chance to join their rivals at next month's NCAA tournament, In 2015 and '16, the league placed at least five teams—or half its membership—in the NCAAs. And Villanova is the defending national champion.
Jay Bilas, a college basketball analyst for ESPN, said he would rank the Big East among the top leagues in the country, with the Atlantic Coast Conference still at No. 1. The Big East, he said, is comprised of "a great collection of basketball brands" with real rivalries and at least some geographic cohesion.
"The Big East is still a league, it's a conference," Bilas said. "The ACC and some of these other quote-unquote leagues are really just media-rights consortiums."
Maybe so, but those consortiums are also cash cows, powered by gargantuan football revenues. The Big East is gambling that its hoops successes will pay dividends outstripping the football revenues the schools left behind.
"Frankly, because we don't have football and all that brings in terms of distractions and the resources that go into it, we can focus on basketball," said Val Ackerman, the Big East commissioner.
The only question is whether this current run of success will last.
Founded in 1979 as a collection of basketball-centric schools in urban northeast media markets, the Big East grew into a hoops powerhouse in the 1980s while also providing a blueprint for the conference consolidation that later swept the country. But the continued expansion—the league eventually sponsored football and morphed into a hybrid arrangement of 16 schools, including seven that didn't play football at the Football Bowl Subdivision level—also brought the Big East to the brink of collapse.
"No disrespect to football, but it kind of ruined the original Big East," said Chris Mullin, the St. John's head coach and one of the league's earliest star players.
By the early 2010s, the tensions between the football and basketball schools became untenable. Bowl and television revenues for football kept growing exponentially, and several Big East programs departed in pursuit of more lucrative arrangements with other leagues. The Big East sought to fill the void by adding a handful of geographic misfits.
"We were taking in the best football schools that we could, but they weren't good basketball schools," said the Rev. Brian Shanley, the president of Providence College, one of the Big East's basketball-centric charter members. Some of the schools, Shanley added, concluded they were "degrading our basketball product, which was the thing we cared about the most."
The so-called Catholic 7 schools—Providence, Villanova, Marquette, Georgetown, DePaul, Seton Hall, St. John's—decided to go their own way and return to the initial ideal that underpinned the Big East's founding.
The remaining non-Catholic 7 schools went on to team up with several others in what is now the American Athletic Conference. Fr. Shanley described the Big East's split from the AAC as an "amicable divorce," complete with a division of assets.
The Catholic 7 insisted on two things: keeping the Big East name, which had long been associated more with basketball than football; and retaining the right to hold its annual conference tournament at Madison Square Garden, the venue that helped establish the league during its 1980s heyday.
In exchange, Fr. Shanley acknowledged, the Catholic 7 "left money behind." This included a substantial portion of entry and exit fees from the various members that kept joining and leaving, plus a windfall of bowl and television revenues generated by football, and even a share of basketball money generated by non-Catholic 7 schools.
The next step was to expand by adding three schools in urban markets with basketball pedigrees: Creighton, Butler, and Xavier. This brought the league to 10 members, which allows for an 18-game, home-and-home conference schedule. Ackerman said the conference has no plans to expand further.
"I have to say after being in the old league for a long time, it's nice to have a really shared sense of purpose among all the schools," Fr. Shanley said. "If you play football, it just dominates; every decision you make has a hold on football."
But consider that the Big East's television deal with Fox Sports—in which every in-conference men's game is aired on one of the Fox channels—averages around $42 million per season. In 2011, before the league disbanded, it was widely reported that the league turned down a nine-year contract with ESPN worth an estimated $133 million annually.
For now, the schools say they don't feel they are at a disadvantage. Even though the big football schools have fatter athletic budgets, said Creighton head coach Greg McDermott, those schools tend to spend most of their football revenue on football.
"We're all flying around in private jets recruiting," McDermott said.
The league also benefits from unusual coaching stability: Six of the league's 10 head coaches have been with their respective programs for at least six seasons. Villanova's championship last year, in the new Big East's third season, also went a long way toward giving the league renewed credibility, said ESPN's Bilas.
Success is often cyclical, of course. As recently as 2014, the Big East placed just four teams in the NCAA tournament, with none advancing past the Round of 32. The pendulum can always swing back. But the Big East schools have no regrets, at least for now.
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 21, 2017, 12:34:00 PMThey like that we have a top 100 rpi year in and year out. If the AD's and presidents of the mvc see it that way.....we could get a call.
With Shane and Alec departing my best guess is for the 2017-18 team to start and probably finish outside of the top 100. Many of us thought that 13-14 would be a reloading year instead of one to rebuild, but our 195 RPI told a different story. Not saying or expecting that we could be that bad next year but we have recently witnessed that not every surprise will be a good one.
QuoteWith Shane and Alec departing my best guess is for the 2017-18 team to start and probably finish outside of the top 100. Many of us thought that 13-14 would be a reloading year instead of one to rebuild, but our 195 RPI told a different story. Not saying or expecting that we could be that bad next year but we have recently witnessed that not every surprise will be a good one.
Recruiting, recruiting, recruiting.
We need to have a 2013-2014 recruiting class either this offseason or next season. I'm not saying we must land arguably the greatest player in Valpo Basketball history in another Alec, but we need to replenish. Joe Burton and Bakari Evelyn seem to be high level transfers that have potential to be impact guys but there is still unknowns and programs that have long-term sustainable success land those recruits from the time they are freshman.
I've read a couple times that "we shouldn't put too much pressure on the coaching staff to have a great recruiting class their first time around", but I could not disagree more. The level of expectation has been raised for the program. Raised expectations doesn't mean we must win the Horizon League every year but I do expect us to be in the hunt most years and good recruiting classes like this current Senior group are the foundation of the program for long-term success.
The Big East didn't "drop football" - the Big East right now is a brand new conference. The article mentions the remaining teams formed the AAC, but that's not what technically happened. The old Big East conference sold the naming rights to the new conference and adopted the AAC name. The commissioner of the old Big East was still the commissioner of the AAC after the switch.
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 21, 2017, 12:34:00 PMIn a perfect world I'd love for Valpo to get an invite from the Big East but thats probably only when pigs can fly or if Valpo decided to double its enrollment over the next 10 years and decide to splurge on new athletics facilities and have the Mens basketball program go on a Butler type run. Then the 2nd choice would be a bid from the A-10 which is not likely either, for many of the same reasons. Then next choice would be a MVC. Then staying in then staying in the Horizon League, but I'd like them to swipe Belmont. If the Horizon could land Belmont and retain all membership and hopefully see a resurgence from many schools like Detroit, Milwaukee then the HL would be in much better shape. But thats a lot of 'IFs" and a lot of wishful thinking.
So to begin with, Valpo's facilities matchup very well with many in the A-10. I have gone through the seating capacities etc several times before. Here is the BIG difference. I'm watching the Rhode Island game on national tv right now. The commentators are saying the A-10 will get three bids. Rhode Island will have, by the end of February 18 games on National TV. 18!!!!!! What could that do for Valpo??
Here is their coverage:
ESPN 1
ESPN2 4
ESPNU 2
CBSSN 6
NBCSN 4
FSN 1
Valpo will have 7 games, 2 of which come via playing Kentucky and Oregon. Please don't mention the coverage from The American Sports Network.
QuotePlease don't mention the coverage from The American Sports Network
It's not ESPN, but those games on ASN get good pickup on local TV stations and regional cable sports networks around the country. Watched the VU-Detroit game on ASN back in early January on local cable while I was in Southern California on a business trip.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 22, 2017, 12:38:02 AM
QuotePlease don't mention the coverage from The American Sports Network
It's not ESPN, but those games on ASN get good pickup on local TV stations and regional cable sports networks around the country. Watched the VU-Detroit game on ASN back in early January on local cable while I was in Southern California on a business trip.
ASN is a step down from these other networks that Rhode Island is getting coverage on:
ESPN
ESPN2
ESPNU
CBSSN
NBCSN
FSN
which is much the same as the Horizon League being a step down from the A-10, MVC, etc. but ASN is better than not having a network or being solely on HLN (internet only). If the HL can improve it's competitive brand of basketball (bring it up to a level similar to the A-10 and MVC) then I'm sure the HL could change from the ASN and move up a level to CBSSN, NBCSN or a comparable network.
ESPN has been willing to sell off some of the MAC games they own the rights on to (but don't select for national broadcast) to CBSSN, and now there's a MAC game on that network almost every Friday night. Wonder if the HL could convince ESPN to do something similar.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 22, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
ESPN has been willing to sell off some of the MAC games they own the rights on to (but don't select for national broadcast) to CBSSN, and now there's a MAC game on that network almost every Friday night. Wonder if the HL could convince ESPN to do something similar.
Does ESPN still maintain the right to put those games on ESPN3 as well? Truth be told, I'd rather have games on a high quality web stream over a 3rd rate sports network with minimal distribution like CBSSN. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Dave_2010 on February 23, 2017, 10:33:59 AM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 22, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
ESPN has been willing to sell off some of the MAC games they own the rights on to (but don't select for national broadcast) to CBSSN, and now there's a MAC game on that network almost every Friday night. Wonder if the HL could convince ESPN to do something similar.
Does ESPN still maintain the right to put those games on ESPN3 as well? Truth be told, I'd rather have games on a high quality web stream over a 3rd rate sports network with minimal distribution like CBSSN. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I wouldn't be too sure about the 3rd rate stuff. I get it loud and clear here in DFW. There are MAC games on but also A-10, Ohio Valley and Valley games and even some Big East games.
Quote from: vu72 on February 23, 2017, 02:57:04 PM
Quote from: Dave_2010 on February 23, 2017, 10:33:59 AM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 22, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
ESPN has been willing to sell off some of the MAC games they own the rights on to (but don't select for national broadcast) to CBSSN, and now there's a MAC game on that network almost every Friday night. Wonder if the HL could convince ESPN to do something similar.
Does ESPN still maintain the right to put those games on ESPN3 as well? Truth be told, I'd rather have games on a high quality web stream over a 3rd rate sports network with minimal distribution like CBSSN. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I wouldn't be too sure about the 3rd rate stuff. I get it loud and clear here in DFW. There are MAC games on but also A-10, Ohio Valley and Valley games and even some Big East games.
https://sportstvratings.com/nba-celebrity-game-rising-stars-challenge-chris-paul-celebrity-pba-top-cable-sports-tv-ratings-for-friday-february-17-2017/7577/
It took me all of 5 minutes to find out that 172,000 people watched the Valpo game last Friday. The same site (and every other site I found, for that matter) doesn't even bother to report on the ratings for the programming on CBSSN. That says about all you need to know about CBSSN moving the needle.
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Anyone with a digital tier cable or satellite package as well as any sports bar in the country gets CBSSN. It's better than a game streamed online by miles.
Cbssn is the worst. They do not stream anything. Remember, tv subscriptions are on a decline and a lot of the younger generation (target audience) stream all of their tv. Yeah, sport bars are able to get it, but how many will turn on a valpo game? Especially on saturdays. But, i understand and agree with the frustration of espn3 as well.
Im not sure if the MVC is a step up from the Horizon anymore, especially if Witchita State leaves. Itll be interesting to see how Witchita State fares in the next few years and if they are able to retain their success. A-10 would be the best based strictly on MBB but as was mentioned that is unlikely. The best bet is to poach Belmont ASAP for the HL. I think the HL is finally trending upward after they were kind of lost after the Butler exit... there are a lot of great coaches back in the league.
The HL is not on the rise. It has steadily dropped in the ranking the last few years. Belmont isn't coming to the HL either. They have ended their flirtation with the league by taking their men's soccer team out of the HL and will be joining another conference.
Quote from: Big D on February 24, 2017, 08:41:20 AM
The HL is not on the rise. It has steadily dropped in the ranking the last few years. Belmont isn't coming to the HL either. They have ended their flirtation with the league by taking their men's soccer team out of the HL and will be joining another conference.
Here is the Belmont soccer move story...
http://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/area-colleges/blog/20848472/belmont-soccer-to-switch-conferences
This move makes perfect sense for them.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on February 24, 2017, 07:18:56 AMI think the HL is finally trending upward after they were kind of lost after the Butler exit... there are a lot of great coaches back in the league.
What gives you that thought? Have you seen the results? Theres not another team in the top 100.
Quote from: IndyValpo on February 24, 2017, 09:14:19 AMQuote from: Big D on February 24, 2017, 08:41:20 AMThe HL is not on the rise. It has steadily dropped in the ranking the last few years. Belmont isn't coming to the HL either. They have ended their flirtation with the league by taking their men's soccer team out of the HL and will be joining another conference.
Here is the Belmont soccer move story... http://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/area-colleges/blog/20848472/belmont-soccer-to-switch-conferences This move makes perfect sense for them.
I wonder if it's because they were getting their arrrse kicked?
The southern conference in which they moved too, has much better travel. Not to mention better weather.
QuoteIm not sure if the MVC is a step up from the Horizon anymore, especially if Witchita State leaves.
No offense, but that's nuts. With or without WSU, the MVC is a better conference on a number of levels:
- Bigger and better fanbases, better crowds both at home and road
- Re-connecting with historic in-state rivals (ISU and Evansville), former AMCU/HL rivals (UNI, Mo State, Loyola), and re-establishing ties with strong regional names that VU used to play regularly in the 70s and 80s (Ill. State, SIU, Bradley)
- Higher revenues
- Better facilities across the conference
- Better TV contracts and media exposure, with its championship game televised on a Sunday afternoon on CBS.
- Multiple-bid conference more often than not (pre-dating Wichita's rise), in part because of the MVC's strong scheduling rules that don't allow teams to be RPI drags
- A conference tournament that makes money and is a showcase event for the league instead of a joke
- Better in other sports, particularly baseball
- Competent conference leadership
I mean, it's not close. The MVC is superior to the HL on so many levels. And one of the few advantages the HL had - the home-court reward for winning the regular season tourney - is now gone, as well.
QuoteThe HL is not on the rise. It has steadily dropped in the ranking the last few years.
Conference's are cyclical. Just the nature of the sport and in this new age of college athletics Conference's are poaching each others teams so there is consolidation, which is another added element.
As for the Men's Basketball in the Horizon League, it is "on the way up". The bottom feeder teams finally fired their lousy coaches. Detroit and Milwaukee hire very good coaches that could restore respectability to those programs. Howard Moore was a great guy but a bad head basketball coach. UIC finally fired him and hired Steve McClain. I don't think McClain is a great coach for X's & O's and coaching but that guy can recruit like nobody in the Horizon League and he is sitting in the best recruiting hot bed in the midwest. He's not a good coach but he is accumulating so much talent they are just a doubtably going to be very good the next few years. Green Bay has a good coach in Linc.
Oakland is a good basketball program. Wright State has been surprisingly good. NKU is an up and coming team. Valpo is Valpo. The only teams that I'm iffy about are YSU and Cleveland State. Cleveland State has a had bad luck with transfers leaving the school.
I'm telling you the Horizon League men's basketball conference will be better the next 2-4 years. I'm not sure about other sports but Men's Basketball is king in the Horizon League and the financial catalyst for the conference. Look at the big picture and look beyond just the last few years and this season.
Yes, i know the recent results and yes they have been bad. Historically, milwaukee, detroit, green bay, and wright state have all had success.[size=78%]Milwaukee made a great hire for a coach. Wright State made a great hire. Both teams hopefully make it back to their normal. Valpo and Oakland need to keep the wheels on which i think they can do. Green Bay should be solid for the forseeable future. UIC is getting talent. Like it or not, the league made a dicey decision to switch up the HLT format. Its too early to tell if it will pan out, and there are obviously challenges, but if it does work out then that will help develop "an MVC" type atmosphere.[/size]
I agree, the MVC has been better than HL as well, especially recently, but alot of that has to do with Creighton and Witchita State. Creighton obviously has moved on. I admitted, with Witchita State, that it will be a positive move. However, IF they move, who else is there? Indiana State Illinois State Southern Illinois and Evansville have all been blah...
I guess the point that was trying to make is, as we sit here now and look at the future, i feel the HL is trending upward, especially if everyone is able to keep their coaches. The MVC, imo, is trending down especially if Witchita State were to leave.
QuoteNo offense, but that's nuts. With or without WSU, the MVC is a better conference on a number of levels:
I fully acknowledge the MVC is a better conference even without Wichita State, but the conference would take a huge hit without them. The whole context was from a Men's Basketball perspective, not other sports.
MVC would make Valpo more $. If we got an invite I'd jump on it but the MVC is not the MVC from the Creighton days and if Wichita State left then that is another huge blow.
Belmont is terrible in men's soccer. I didn't think that they would ever join the HL as a full member, though we all wished for such a thing.
Quote from: VU2014 on February 24, 2017, 10:27:09 AM
QuoteThe HL is not on the rise. It has steadily dropped in the ranking the last few years.
Conference's are cyclical. Just the nature of the sport and in this new age of college athletics Conference's are poaching each others teams so there is consolidation, which is another added element.
As for the Men's Basketball in the Horizon League, it is "on the way up". The bottom feeder teams finally fired their lousy coaches. Detroit and Milwaukee hire very good coaches that could restore respectability to those programs. Howard Moore was a great guy but a bad head basketball coach. UIC finally fired him and hired Steve McClain. I don't think McClain is a great coach for X's & O's and coaching but that guy can recruit like nobody in the Horizon League and he is sitting in the best recruiting hot bed in the midwest. He's not a good coach but he is accumulating so much talent they are just a doubtably going to be very good the next few years. Green Bay has a good coach in Linc.
Oakland is a good basketball program. Wright State has been surprisingly good. NKU is an up and coming team. Valpo is Valpo. The only teams that I'm iffy about are YSU and Cleveland State. Cleveland State has a had bad luck with transfers leaving the school.
I'm telling you the Horizon League men's basketball conference will be better the next 2-4 years. I'm not sure about other sports but Men's Basketball is king in the Horizon League and the financial catalyst for the conference. Look at the big picture and look beyond just the last few years and this season.
Alike to the stock market, can't go chasinf
Quote from: valpotx on February 24, 2017, 11:35:03 AM
Belmont is terrible in men's soccer. I didn't think that they would ever join the HL as a full member, though we all wished for such a thing.
If we keep chasing conferences we'll end up on their down swing every time.
So apparently Belmont spurned the Horizon League in the recent past. Horizon reached out and Belmont rejected an invite and there is a rumor that they also rejected an Invite from the MVC...
Their President didn't think there was enough media exposure to make the move so when they made the move to the Ohio Valley Conference that conference pretty much sold its soul to Belmont. Belmont's plan is to run ship in the OVC and beat the living piss out a terrible Conference and make the Tourney pretty much every single year. They don't want to compete unless its probably in the A10 or Big East.
Blows my mind of their Presidents strategy...
He does have a strategy.
It's a strategy but its sort of a cowardly one. Play no one tough in conference and make the conference so many year in a row that the A10 and Big East give you notice and pray they give you a bid. I think they badly want to be in the Big East and to be honest who wouldn't.
I'd love to get in the Big East but that will never happen for us because we have a tiny enrollment and Valpo needs to step up their game in other sports other then Mens Basketball and we would need adequate facilities. But this all hypothetical and not going to happen.
Also give a the conversation that is happening on twitter a read. Really interesting discussion on the Horizon League between Valpo, Oakland and Milwaukee grads. Paul Oren just jumped in the conversation.
-Being discussed is how strengthen the conference
-Booting YSU out the conference
-Green Bay may or may not leave one day because of their financial situation
-Belmont, etc.
-NKU addition
(It all starts here. click of the twitter link and read through the convo)
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836235473131618304
https://twitter.com/YinzerSTILLinOH/status/836237761933893632
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/836238533132111872
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/836238785805500417
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/836239308352737280
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836239955307429888
Belmont won't be in the Big East anytime soon.
QuoteIt's a strategy but its sort of a cowardly one. Play no one tough in conference and make the conference so many year in a row that the A10 and Big East give you notice and pray they give you a bid. I think they badly want to be in the Big East and to be honest who wouldn't.
The Big East isn't interested in expansion and why would they be? Anyone they add would dilute their already somewhat-meager Fox Sports TV deal. They aren't having any difficulty getting at-large bids or deep tourney runs. And if that changes, the line will form behind Dayton, VCU and Wichita (and St. Louis, if they ever get their stuff together).
Also, it's easy to throw shade at Belmont for this approach, but I heard this same sentiment voiced by several past Valpo officials and coaches in the late 90s/early 2000s as to why VU didn't try to capitalize on the Sweet 16 run and seek a better conference option than the Mid-Con. (And yes, it sounded just as weak when VU people said it back then).
Except that in our case, it wasn't as much getting to win the title every year, as much as keeping Steinbrecher's son gainfully employed as the Mid-Con commissioner, and keeping it together as a conference.
True on the second part, but I heard the "much easier path to the NCAA tournament" argument more than once from staffers and coaches back then. We can't get all high and mighty about Belmont's choice, is what I'm saying.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on February 27, 2017, 01:16:52 PMAlso, it's easy to throw shade at Belmont for this approach, but I heard this same sentiment voiced by several past Valpo officials and coaches in the late 90s/early 2000s as to why VU didn't try to capitalize on the Sweet 16 run and seek a better conference option than the Mid-Con. (And yes, it sounded just as weak when VU people said it back then).
Talked to President Harre about this many times, the reluctance to switch was always very evident.
Expanding to 12 teams is the HL's bridge to nowhere. Consider that the 3 newest conference members have the 3 best W/L records, both in conference and out, yet the conference is mired in 18th in RPI. And why? Look no further than the difference in program quality among the 7-member "old guard" since we've been in the league:
WSU - decline
GB - same
Milwaukee - significant decline
UIC - significant decline
Detroit - significant decline
CSU - significant decline
YSU - total leech, then and now
This isn't like a corporate turnaround situation, where you get the wrong people off the bus and the right ones on. We are who we are, and it's up to us to fix ourselves. There are no other answers.
Quote from: wh on February 27, 2017, 06:49:49 PMExpanding to 12 teams is the HL's bridge to nowhere. Consider that the 3 newest conference members have the 3 best W/L records, both in conference and out, yet the conference is mired in 18th in RPI. And why? Look no further than the difference in program quality among the 7-member "old guard" since we've been in the league: WSU - decline GB - same Milwaukee - significant decline UIC - significant decline Detroit - significant decline CSU - significant decline YSU - total leech, then and now This isn't like a corporate turnaround situation, where you get the wrong people off the bus and the right ones on. We are who we are, and it's up to us to fix ourselves. There are no other answers.
Well said. Along the same lines and I want to make my point again that this is not the same HL we signed up for.
I don't want the summit either but if the best HL basketball programs left for the summit would it be a top 12? I mean thats what the HL was when we joined.
QuoteYSU - total leech, then and now
Is there anyway to let loose on the dead weight that is YSU. They are miserable drag on the Horizon and have consistently shown little effort or desire to fix their situation. Leach is a pretty darn good word for them.
Could the President's vote to kick them out of the Conference?
I'm not sure what the ramifications would be but they truly are embarrassing to the conference (at least in my time of being a Valpo fan). YSU has shifted more resources towards football since Jim Tressel (former Ohio State Head Football coach) became the President of YSU and hiring Bo Pelini as the football coach. Basketball isn't their priority which does not match the Horizon Leagues goals.
QuoteThe Big East isn't interested in expansion and why would they be?
There are always eventually reasons to expand the conference. $$$$$ When their TV deal comes up and start renegotiating the TV contract they will realize how much $ is on the table if they were to expand to different regions of the country for market penetration. Yes they are making lots of $ now been the Pot can grow much larger as long as they find the right partners, (private school, medium to large enrollment (alumni base), Basketball focused (Non-Football School), and in a large market for the TV contracts, and consistently Competitive).
The Big East will eventually expand. (Not saying we will be in the conversation)
Youngstown State University in a nutshell to the rest of the Horizon League...
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/836432070150877184
I don't know why you would say WSU is in decline. They won 20 games last year and were in the finals of the tournament. We have a great new coach who won 20 games this year with a new system no depth and no true point guard. Once he starts getting his recruits in he will have more success. i went to the N Kentucky, Green bay, and Valpo games and our attendance, already the best in the league, was up. By all measures Wright State is going up not down.
Yeah I don't think Wright State is in decline either. I've been impressed by Nagy in his short time in the conference. Billy Donlon was a great coach but struggled in the recruiting department. Wright State isn't dragging down the league like YSU and Cleveland State are.
Remember that Cleveland State, for what ever reason, lost several great players to the likes of Kentucky, Lousiville and Wichita State. Had they stayed CSU would have competed for the title. Waters is a good coach and has had success recruiting. Milwaukee self imploded via the firing of Jeter. GB made a great hire. I'm hopeful the conference is on the rise (from ashes). The question now is, can Valpo stay on top??
Cleveland State would be good if they didn't lose some key players to transfer. Not sure if Gary Waters is going to be able to fix the program. Once you start losing and you get that reputation to recruits its hard to turn it around as a program. Hopefully they can get things back to competitive state.
I'm glad Milwaukee finally fired Rob Jeter. The offensive system there (and at UIC with Howard Moore) were running a very poor mans Wisconsin offensive scheme but they never recruited the right players to run it. Both good guys but just was time to go. Milwaukee apparently has very serious issues in there Athletics Department. Lots of drama and infighting. I like the LaVall Jordan hire.
Detroit made a good hire in Bacari Alexander. He's cleaning up the program and will start recruiting players who actually have a focus on basketball.
Nagy is a good hire for Wright State. Brannen will probably win coach of the year with NKU. Kampe has done a nice job. Linc is a good coach. And of course Lottich has a done a great job this year with the hand he has been dealt with the NCAA screwing us with Carter and Jubril, and short bench.
I think the Horizon League is pretty strong in the coaching department. YSU's AD needs to start actually caring about the Basketball program and put less focus on football for the Horizon Leagues sake.
I hope Lottich is not a Donovan. Very good coach but bad recruiter.
So far he looks like a good coach. Verdict yet to be decided on the recruiting part.
QuoteExpanding to 12 teams is the HL's bridge to nowhere
Agree. Now, subtraction, on the other hand... (or heck, even a swap would be an improvement. Replace YSU with Belmont and the HL looks a lot better almost instantly).
On a semi-related note, am I the only one who thinks the HL was way too passive and reactive in the immediate aftermath of Butler's Final Four runs? There was a legit window to shore up the conference with some quality members and leverage the juice the league had at the time, and nothing. (St. Louis under Majerus was expressing extreme dissatisfaction with the A-10 at the time and wanted to be part of a more Midwest-based league. Evansville was grumbling about the MVC. A forward-thinking league would also have considered making a pitch for Dayton and Xavier, then. Yes, longshots both, but also the western-most members of an Eastern-centered league that might have been able to be convinced to be part of a conference that just went to two straight national title games. Could none of this have worked? Of course, in fact, likely. But man, I would have at least loved for the HL to have tried.)
QuoteAgree. Now, subtraction, on the other hand... (or heck, even a swap would be an improvement. Replace YSU with Belmont and the HL looks a lot better almost instantly).
On a semi-related note, am I the only one who thinks the HL was way too passive and reactive in the immediate aftermath of Butler's Final Four runs? There was a legit window to shore up the conference with some quality members and leverage the juice the league had at the time, and nothing. (St. Louis under Majerus was expressing extreme dissatisfaction with the A-10 at the time and wanted to be part of a more Midwest-based league. Evansville was grumbling about the MVC. A forward-thinking league would also have considered making a pitch for Dayton and Xavier, then. Yes, longshots both, but also the western-most members of an Eastern-centered league that might have been able to be convinced to be part of a conference that just went to two straight national title games. Could none of this have worked? Of course, in fact, likely. But man, I would have at least loved for the HL to have tried.)
I hear what your saying about the retraction. I wish the HL would cut off YSU. Their priority is football and not Basketball. Not sure how retraction would affect the bottom line ($) of the league.
As for SLU, Evansville, Dayton, and (especially) Xavier would have never have even considered the HL even after the Butler run. They make more $$ in the other conferences and every team saw the writing on the wall after the Butler run. Butler badly wanted into a better conference and out of the HL. I'd love it if they came to the HL but never is/was going to happen.
QuoteAs for SLU, Evansville, Dayton, and (especially) Xavier would have never have even considered the HL even after the Butler run. They make more $$ in the other conferences and every team saw the writing on the wall after the Butler run. Butler badly wanted into a better conference and out of the HL. I'd love it if they came to the HL but never is/was going to happen.
Again, not saying it would have happened, but given the uncertainty due to expected upheaval in conference alignments at the time - remember, there were all sorts of scenarios in play - it would not have been unthinkable. You know that HL's revenues would not have stayed static with those additions, right?
Please note that I said X and UD were longshots. But SLU's head basketball coach was publicly lobbying to join a Midwest-based league and get out of the A-10. And UE was having issues with the MVC at the time. Again, the key phrase is "at the time." The HL had just experienced back-to-back Final Fours, was two years removed from multi-bid status (2009, where CSU won a first-round game), and Milwaukee was just a handful of years removed from a Sweet 16 run of their own, with Valpo on the upswing and UD featuring a highly-recruited star. What non-P6 league's future looked brighter at the time?
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 28, 2017, 11:07:00 AM
I hope Lottich is not a Donovan. Very good coach but bad recruiter.
So far he looks like a good coach. Verdict yet to be decided on the recruiting part.
[/b]
Joe Burton, ranked No. 59 in the ESPN top 100, is the highest rated player to ever grace the Valpo campus. Add to that Bakari Evelyn was an All-state player in Michigan as a sophomore. I think the "yet to be decided" comment is accurate, but, there is plenty to excited for going forward.
Quote from: vu72 on February 28, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 28, 2017, 11:07:00 AM
I hope Lottich is not a Donovan. Very good coach but bad recruiter.
So far he looks like a good coach. Verdict yet to be decided on the recruiting part.
[/b]
Joe Burton, ranked No. 59 in the ESPN top 100, is the highest rated player to ever grace the Valpo campus. Add to that Bakari Evelyn was an All-state player in Michigan as a sophomore. I think the "yet to be decided" comment is accurate, but, there is plenty to excited for going forward.
I am also excited, but will reserve my view of his recruiting for a 4 year period where each class is his.
Just like JIM Harbaugh at UofM winning out of the gate. That entire team was the previous coaches group. Doesn't entirely take away from Lottich's success, but he only has (2) active players in this years team. TBD.
Quote from: vu72 on February 28, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 28, 2017, 11:07:00 AM
I hope Lottich is not a Donovan. Very good coach but bad recruiter.
So far he looks like a good coach. Verdict yet to be decided on the recruiting part.
[/b]
Joe Burton, ranked No. 59 in the ESPN top 100, is the highest rated player to ever grace the Valpo campus. Add to that Bakari Evelyn was an All-state player in Michigan as a sophomore. I think the "yet to be decided" comment is accurate, but, there is plenty to excited for going forward.
As vu72 points out, the transfers are more highly ranked than the seniors Valpo is losing. With continued development from this year's freshmen, Valpo will be the favorite again next year.
Oakland will be the favorite next year, I'm good with hoping that Valpo can be a surprise team next year (like the year Brandon Wood left).
And if Malik Monk decides to commit some domestic violence, Oakland is even more of a favorite.
QuoteValpo will be the favorite again next year.
Its early but as it stands right now Oakland will be the heavy favorite next season. Most of Oaklands best players will be seniors and they replace Dorsey-Walker with Kendrick Nunn (the former Illinois player who got off the team for domestic assault) who is then Dorsey-Walker. I've heard some HL fans call him a future NBA player. I watch a lot of Illini basketball and he wasn't an NBA player at Illinois, maybe he developed a new future to his game.
Bottom line we will not be the favorites losing our 2 best players (one of which has a legit chance to be a 1st rnd pick) and Shane can play at the top levels of Europe.
I like the ceiling and potential of Joe Burton and Bakari Evelyn but ranking of high school players means nothing. AP wasn't even ranked a 2 star prospect by 2 of the 3 major basketball. Rankings and stars are nice and do help us fans get excited and gauge players potential but its not the end all be all. I get what you mean though.
I'm cautiously optimistic about Joe and Bakari but I'm not sure they'll be to instantly replace AP and Shane's play right away. We still need to bring in more studs recruits. That swinging and missing on Sasha Stefanovic hurts.
QuoteI'm good with hoping that Valpo can be a surprise team next year (like the year Brandon Wood left).
I'm hoping we can be a surprise team too. Just not sure we will have a Ryan Broekhoff and Kevin Van Wijk on next years team to step up. Joe and Bakari maybe can be those guys. Hoping Sorolla and Smits take another step. Maybe Tevonn takes that next step. Expecting Micah to grow as a player.
We'll see what happens.
We will be fine next year...itll just look different having a team by committee fill the void of a star player or two.
Give the two bigs an offseason to improve and theres not a doubt in my mind they will. Also, the motivator this offseason is knowing all of the minutes and all of the shots/points that need to be replaced. One, or a few, will improve more than we expect.
With that said we need to try and take advantage of our 5 out of 6 HL league championships and a nit runner up.
Those results should generate good recruits. Those results should give some weight when our AD calls the mvc.
If MLB doesn't call mvc he's just not trying to improve our athletic department.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on February 28, 2017, 10:12:54 PM
And if Malik Monk decides to commit some domestic violence, Oakland is even more of a favorite.
You don't have to spew out everything that pops into your head.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/842752440399265792
https://twitter.com/SIPeteThamel/status/842748798535438337
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/03/16/wichita-state-conference-realignment-american-athletic?xid=socialflow_twitter_si
Disrespected again by selection committee, Wichita State seems destined for bigger league
By: PETE THAMEL
Friday March 17th, 2017
INDIANAPOLIS — Wichita State arrives here for the first round of the NCAA tournament with a unique sense of both empathy and dread from its opponents. No one wants to play the Shockers, who are 30–4, rated No. 8 in kenpom.com rankings and reached the Final Four as recently as 2013. No one can believe the Shockers are a No. 10 seed, one of the most controversial and indefensible NCAA tournament seeds of this generation.
Wichita State's duality as a dominant national program from outside of a power conference is becoming an increasing anomaly. The Shockers may play in the Missouri Valley Conference, but they have a national brand, a consistently packed arena and they pay coach Gregg Marshall well over $3 million per year. Essentially, everything about them aside from their league schedule and the respect from the NCAA selection committee is high-major.
Two years in a row, the NCAA tournament selection committee has stunned college basketball observers with its treatment of the Shockers. In 2016, Wichita garnered a No. 11 seed despite going 24–9, which led to playing a First Four game in Dayton. (After blowing out No. 11 Vanderbilt and No. 6 Arizona, the Shockers eventually ran out of gas against No. 3 Miami.) This year, Wichita is seeded so low that it's not a guarantee the Shockers would have made the tournament if they had lost to Illinois State in the MVC title game. (Illinois State got left out at 27–6). "The notion that Wichita State could have been left out of this year's tournament is insane," says Valley commissioner Doug Elgin. "It's as strong a team as I've seen in 30 years in our league."
It's becoming increasingly apparent that a confluence of Wichita's recent success, the history of programs with similar profiles and the current trends of the NCAA tournament selection committee will drive the Shockers to a higher-profile conference. Conversations with sources around college sports this week revealed Wichita upgrading its league—likely to the American Athletic Conference—as a distinct possibility in the near future. This could happen in as soon as the next few months or may take a year or two. But the odds are increasing that the Shockers will end up somewhere else, with the AAC offering the highest profile and making the most sense. "It wouldn't be a genuine response if I said we weren't concerned," Elgin said. "We want them to stay. Losing Creighton was a blow to the league. Losing Wichita State would be the same."
A source said the American Athletic Conference is exploring ways to improve its basketball reputation. The league has 12 members for football but just 11 basketball schools, which means adding one non-football school would be logical. (Navy is the league's football-only member.) Commissioner Mike Aresco's public comments that the league didn't want multiple basketball schools fueled speculation that it may be considering a single one. "We are not under any circumstances going back to the old Big East model of multiple basketball schools," Aresco told Sirius XM satellite radio. The league is wary of adding multiple members for basketball after seeing how juggling football ambition and basketball tradition became untenable in the Big East. Ultimately, those tensions played a huge factor in driving the league apart.
Wichita has also pondered Conference USA, and the Mountain West and MAC to a lesser extent, as options if it decides to add football. (While the Big East makes sense for basketball, league officials there have been adamant about not expanding. There would also be little interest on the television side because of the value of the Big East's contract with Fox.)
The recent history of conference realignment shows that it typically occurs when the league is on the cusp of a television contract. Essentially every recent major move has come either before a contract (Pac-12), to sweeten a conference network (SEC) or to re-open negotiations on a current one (ACC). The simple conference math is that more schools bring in more money.
The American's current television deal, signed after the league got gutted by an exodus, pays teams in the league just $1.9 million in media rights per school. That's at most one-tenth of what the ACC, Pac-12, Big Ten, SEC and Big 12 get in annual television revenue. The AAC's contract mercifully ends in 2020, which means preliminary talks for the new deal begin sometime year. History dictates that if the league wants to grow, it'll move sooner than later.
Potentially adding Wichita may be one step in the evolution of the AAC. There are few logical options for football expansion, which is a completely independent conversation. The most logical football targets would be adding a pair of military academies, Army and Air Force, for football only to go with Navy. There's no indication if independent Army or the Mountain West's Air Force would be interested, but they are the most logical football expansion options to be discussed.
Basketball is rarely a huge driver of realignment. But in Wichita's case, the marriage appears to be mutually beneficial. The AAC had just two teams reach the NCAA tournament this year. Wichita barely made the NCAAs twice in a row despite dazzling seasons and could use the schedule upgrade from a stronger conference. The two teams from the AAC this year aren't a cause for alarm—UConn won the NCAA title in 2014 and the league got four bids last year. More so than television revenue, Wichita would add the potential of lucrative NCAA units annually. (Each appearance and win is essentially worth $1.6 million over six years, and the units passed on from the old Big East to the AAC are beginning to cycle out).
Marshall has not filtered his criticisms and concerns about Wichita's seeding. An NCAA source said this week that it's impossible to gauge if Wichita would have been in if they lost because they had already clinched the Valley's automatic bid by the time the committee convened. The source did add that Middle Tennessee likely would have gotten in if it had lost in the Conference USA final.
Marshall certainly is not naïve to the upward mobility of teams in the past decade who've rode consistent basketball success to higher leagues. The moves include VCU (CAA to Atlantic 10), George Mason (CAA to Atlantic 10), Butler (Horizon to Atlantic 10 to Big East), Xavier (Atlantic 10 to Big East), Creighton (Missouri Valley to Big East) and Davidson (Southern Conference to Atlantic 10). Wichita has built a superior or similar reputation in the Valley as all those schools did in their previous leagues.
When asked if he expected Wichita to follow their lead, Marshall didn't dismiss the notion. "That's beyond my decision-making level," he said. "That's a presidential deal as far as conference affiliation. I just think there's a little bit of a movement, it seems, by the committee to squeeze out the non-Power Five. I really feel that."
He's not the only one, as the trend of large conference mediocrity flooding the tournament is real. Whether that manifests in the Shockers moving on appears to only be a matter of time. Elgin points to the Gonzaga model and the success the Bulldogs have had in the WCC, but they appear to be the anomaly. "The gap is going to get bigger than smaller," VCU athletic director Ed McLaughlin said. "You have to be on the right side of the divide when the big divide comes."
All signs point to Wichita moving up, for fear of being left out.
I think the MVC is a better fit for Valparaiso on a few levels, and the status of the conference is higher. The MVC was just outside the top 10 (the 12th ranked conference in RPI, 11th in some rankings) this year and the HL was a mediocre 18th. Some will argue that the MVC would be lessened by Wichita State leaving. However, you substitute Valpo and the MVC doesn't get hurt as much. The HL will still be lower than the MVC, especially if it loses Valpo.
On the other hand, this thread was begun almost exactly 4 years ago. Has the Valpo administration done anything in that time to make the program more appealing to the MVC (or any other conference) or has that time been wasted?
Quote from: valpopal on March 17, 2017, 12:17:29 PMOn the other hand, this thread was begun almost exactly 4 years ago. Has the Valpo administration done anything in that time to make the program more appealing to the MVC (or any other conference) or has that time been wasted?
Not at all. It has been proven that fundamentally athletics ranks fairly low on the totem pole of valuable departments. I feel this school is very lucky that quality people such as the Drew's, LaBarbera, etc. we're here or remain. I don't think the school, as a whole, deserves the MVC until something changes.
Quote from: bbtds on March 17, 2017, 01:27:37 PM
Quote from: valpopal on March 17, 2017, 12:17:29 PMOn the other hand, this thread was begun almost exactly 4 years ago. Has the Valpo administration done anything in that time to make the program more appealing to the MVC (or any other conference) or has that time been wasted?
Not at all. It has been proven that fundamentally athletics ranks fairly low on the totem pole of valuable departments. I feel this school is very lucky that quality people such as the Drew's, LaBarbera, etc. we're here or remain. I don't think the school, as a whole, deserves the MVC until something changes.
[/b]
Couldn't agree more! We need to follow Bradley's example! Only spent $3.9 million on the basketball budget and finished near the bottom. They should have spent more if they really cared! Ask Illinois State! They spent less then Valpo on their budget and finished second! Oh wait...never mind.
Ummm... Illinois State didn't get in, remember?
Doesn't matter what conference we are in, it is win the conference tournament or nothing.
The Era of mid majors getting at large bids is over. Based on Middle Tennessee getting a 12, they wouldn't have made it this year after an extra loss in their conference tourney. Doesn't matter which conference we are in. Mid majors can't get in with 5 loses anymore.
So who cares, might as well stay where we are.
Some seemstired of this discussion but every thread ends with facilities. I'm just going to leave this here...
https://twitter.com/joeyteeple/status/842828976150253568
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/842829264923901952
https://twitter.com/bruner_marc/status/842866079315755008
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/842867511217606656
https://twitter.com/bruner_marc/status/842868358974521344
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/842844235703422976
Quote from: SanityLost17 on March 17, 2017, 06:18:14 PM
Ummm... Illinois State didn't get in, remember?
Doesn't matter what conference we are in, it is win the conference tournament or nothing.
The Era of mid majors getting at large bids is over. Based on Middle Tennessee getting a 12, they wouldn't have made it this year after an extra loss in their conference tourney. Doesn't matter which conference we are in. Mid majors can't get in with 5 loses anymore.
So who cares, might as well stay where we are.
100% AGREE
Not trying to create enemies here, but Oakland is up there in quality options with VU (for other conferences). We are by no means a lock for most attractive in the HL.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on March 17, 2017, 06:18:14 PMUmmm... Illinois State didn't get in, remember?
Doesn't matter what conference we are in, it is win the conference tournament or nothing.
The Era of mid majors getting at large bids is over. Based on Middle Tennessee getting a 12, they wouldn't have made it this year after an extra loss in their conference tourney. Doesn't matter which conference we are in. Mid majors can't get in with 5 loses anymore.
So who cares, might as well stay where we are.
Conference USA was just awful at #23 so I will agree that Middle Tennessee had no chance for an at large with another loss. None! I look at the Illinois St exclusion as another criminal act.
Returning to topic if Wichita St announced tomorrow that they had bought their way out of 2017-18 MVC participation then I might bet the HL 17-18 conference ranking would likely exceed that of the remaining 9 MVC members. Ok, that is not a sure thing and it might be the exception instead of the rule but still; who might jump ship next? Northern Iowa? Illinois St?
The only sure way for Valpo to progress towards mid-major prominence is for the staff and administrators to work tirelessly towards that achievement. Next year may require that effort just to stay in the top 125 but that is our starting point for the future.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on March 17, 2017, 06:18:14 PM
Ummm... Illinois State didn't get in, remember?
Doesn't matter what conference we are in, it is win the conference tournament or nothing.
The Era of mid majors getting at large bids is over. Based on Middle Tennessee getting a 12, they wouldn't have made it this year after an extra loss in their conference tourney. Doesn't matter which conference we are in. Mid majors can't get in with 5 loses anymore.
So who cares, might as well stay where we are.
Half of the selection committee is outside of the P5 conferences. With MTSU being favored by Vegas over a 5 seed, and Wichita State winning yet again, I feel there HAS to be some sort of correction coming. The idea that quantity of wins over top 50 teams is the only metric has to go away. There's been a huge backlash against the committee this year, so I think this will get corrected. Maybe I'm being naaive, but the tournament can't survive without Cinderella's, which there were none of this year. There's no way people tune in and skip work for Cincinnati to beat Kansas State.
Quote from: a3uge on March 17, 2017, 11:19:22 PMMaybe I'm being naaive, but the tournament can't survive without Cinderella's,
When the Cinderella's are gone I stop watching. Many others do the same. From a financial standpoint you would think the selection committee would overweight top mid majors instead of exclude them.
Kudos to NKU for a brave showing against Kentucky. If they had hit a couple more of the open 3's it could have been down right interesting.
Got to say with its' great facilities and all but one player coming back next year along with adding a 7 foot recruit NKU is setting itself up to be tough to deal with from now on. Valpo is going to have to step up it's game if it wants to challange for Horizon League championships let alone move up to the MVC. Our two bigs had better realize that they have a lot of work to do if we are to compete in the next two seasons. They better realize being tall isn't enough. They have to get stronger and develop skills otherwise players like Drew McDonald can make them look really silly.
Agreed valpo will certainly need to step up to contend for the HL championship next year. But it's body of work the last 6 years qualifies to be a top candidate for promotion into a better league and despite no NCAA tourney wins, valpo has a top 100 rpi each year. It's not a one year resume that's gets a promotion.
Nku and Oakland will be top dogs next year. Can they be top dogs over a 6 year span?
I certainly think they can. Oaklands ad and coach will do whatever it takes to promote and increase the quality of the bball program. Nkumhas facilities, coach and recruiting.
Agreed.
The conference is going to be much tougher next season. Oakland will favorites with all those seniors and 1 yr of Nunn. NKU will improve. Don't forget about UIC. UIC has a lot of talent and they were young this yr and missed Dixson. Valpo should be a contenders for Top few seeds again. Green Bay will still be competitive in the conference. Detroit won't get worse. MKE I'm assuming won't be quite as bad as this year. Wright State will be an experience team with a lot of seniors and juniors. YSU/CSU... well... at least they finally made a coaching change (specifically YSU).
Quote from: VU2014 on March 18, 2017, 12:22:48 PMYSU/CSU... well... at least they final made a coaching change (specifically YSU).
The phrase I used was
"Slocum if you got 'em."YSU no longer has their Slocs.
We are on the brink of another conference consolidation and Conference Shifting with in the next year.
Rumor is that the Wichita State Athletic Department and Board is fully committed to maintaining basketball success and they know in order to achieve that then WSU will need to try its best to get out of the MVC and find a more favorable 2 bid situation.
Rumor is they are going to the AAC as a hoops only member and it's going to be announced at some point within the next few year.
Better hold onto you seat belts because there is going to be a dog fight for the opening in the MVC. Probably going to come from the Horizon or summit. People mention Dakota schools but if the MVC make that move then that's just market play and they are on the wrong path anyways.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/19/14976706/wichita-state-gregg-marshall-postgame-comments-ncaa-tournament-missouri-valley-conference
Quote from: VU2014 on March 19, 2017, 05:49:24 PM
We are on the brink of another conference consolidation and Conference Shifting with in the next year.
Rumor is that the Wichita State Athletic Department and Board is fully committed to maintaining basketball success and they know in order to achieve that then WSU will need to try its best to get out of the MVC and find a more favorable 2 bid situation.
Rumor is they are going to the AAC as a hoops only member and it's going to be announced at some point within the next few year.
Better hold onto you seat belts because there is going to be a dog fight for the opening in the MVC. Probably going to come from the Horizon or summit. People mention Dakota schools but if the MVC make that move then that's just market play and they are on the wrong path anyways.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/19/14976706/wichita-state-gregg-marshall-postgame-comments-ncaa-tournament-missouri-valley-conference
"Rumor is that the Wichita State Athletic Department and Board is fully committed to maintaining basketball success"
It should be noted that one of the Koch brothers is bank rolling much of that program. It's easy for the administration to look good when you have rich donors that like sports.
I wish we had our own billionaire donors. :(
Marshall is dropping all the hints...
https://twitter.com/ChrisSchutte3/status/843576361159741443
Apparently Oakland was in talks with the A10 to be a member? What the heck? This is news to me. Did any of you guys know this? Why?
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/843935739322630144
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/843942183896043521
Even more interesting is the follow-up tweet:
[tweet]843946357928869889[/tweet]
Quote from: VU2014 on March 20, 2017, 04:55:24 PM
Apparently Oakland was in talks with the A10 to be a member? What the heck? This is news to me. Did any of you guys know this? Why?
[tweet]843935739322630144[/tweet]
[tweet]843942183896043521[/tweet]
Quote from: valpopal on March 20, 2017, 05:49:20 PM
Even more interesting is the follow-up tweet:
[tweet]843946357928869889[/tweet]
Quote from: VU2014 on March 20, 2017, 04:55:24 PM
Apparently Oakland was in talks with the A10 to be a member? What the heck? This is news to me. Did any of you guys know this? Why?
[tweet]843935739322630144[/tweet]
[tweet]843942183896043521[/tweet]
Sports journalism remains the worst.
I have no sources on this but I'm calling bull$hit that Oakland said no or even got an invite... sounds like a source that wants to puff up the program...
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/843975137758265344
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/843975095383023616
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/843975439265742848
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/843976002149666816
https://twitter.com/DetSports5/status/843977109680898048
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/843977598724202497
I don't buy this one bit.
I'm calling BS.
• Oakland has won exactly ZERO conference tournament championships over the past 6 seasons.
• Oakland has won exactly ONE conference tournament game over the past 6 seasons.
• Of Oakland's 6 conference tournament losses over the past 6 seasons, they were favored in All but 1 game.
• Oakland has won exactly ONE conference regular season championship over the past 6 seasons, and that was gifted by AP's season ending injury.
No wonder the A-10 came a call'in. ::)
Yep, Sofia Vergara told me I should do an episode of Modern Family with her. But I had to turn her down. I didn't feel my acting ability was quite good enough.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-sFA9dQZIVSQ/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAN_0/R7a_1L5UWCs/s0-c-k-no-ns/photo.jpg)
Witchita State would accept an AAC invite, per article on ESPN today. AAC will vote in the coming weeks and takes at least 75% approval. Would begin in 18-19.
How good is the MVC without WSU and Creighton?? I still dont think MVC is the answer for Valpo.
MVC may be better. Idk. MVC without Creighton/Wichita St is extremely diminished. Thats a one bid league without WSU for sure, same as the HL. I'm curious what the revenues of the MVC would be without WSU compared to the HL currently.
I've read the MVC message boards and there are some crazy people over there wanting NKU. NKU has upside, good stadium, good team but 1 yr track record & had a cake walk in the Conf Tourney. Most of those fans think the Dakota Schools are the best option for when the WSU leaves. Just because they think they have the Financial backing to be turn into a great team.
ISU and UNI fans don't seem happy in the MVC, especially with the news of WSU most likely leaving. Maybe they could be poached. I'd like us to vote YSU and CSU out the conference (specifically YSU), to free up a spot for a team. Maybe LeCrone could step it up and poach ISU or UNI (not likely).
QuoteHow good is the MVC without WSU and Creighton??
Still way, way better than the HL in terms of revenues, name recognition, TV coverage and fan support.
I stiill think a move to the MVC would be a step up. Seriously, for the past month many of you have been harsh on critiquing the Horizon league tournament and LeCrone. UNI and Illinois State have been pretty good. Bradley has potential to get better. the MVC has better post season tournament also.
an invite to the AAC or the A10 is not going happens in the near future. My question is if the Horizon league fulfills our needs, is sustainable and headed in right direction.
One thing to mention is WSU is a Public school and I was talking to someone who is more in the know then me about the whole thing and he mentioned how they may want to replace a public school with another public school. MVC is majority Public and it may be a sticking point for the Public schools involved. The Dakota school look like obvious candidates I guess.
If we were to get an invite from the MVC I think we should take it and it is a better conf based on revenues, name recognition, TV coverage and fan support like bigmosmithfan1 mentioned, but just purely from a competitive standpoint after WSU leaves may be significantly close the gap. HL will be much better in the next few yrs but its cyclical and the MVC will be more consistent if I had to guess.
Still can't believe the MVC let in Loyola pretty much solely based on the "market". Nobody and I mean nobody pays attention to Loyola basketball and it's doubtful its impacted their TV ratings like they were hoping. Loyola has received a recruiting boost from the MVC but they are still middle of the pack and very low key addition. I wonder if most of the school wish they could have that vote back.
Excellent points 2014, particularly on Loyola basketball. I think the addition of Loyola has not benefitted the MVC.
Why do you think competition in the Horizon League will get better?
QuoteWhy do you think competition in the Horizon League will get better?
OaklandOU is a going to be a heavy favorite next season. Most of the best players are seniors. Kampe is a good coach and I'm assuming they will maintain being a competitive team in the league post next season.
UICUIC was one of the youngest teams in the nation last year and McClain has done an insanely good job recruiting. They will be better next season and will be the "surprise" team to those who haven't been paying attention to UIC basketball. I don't particularly think McClain is a great coach on the X's & O's and in game tactician but the guy can recruit and they will have the talent to be good for the next 2-3 years. I actually personally think UIC is going to see some transfers after next season. Lots of talent and not enough shots to go around. Also they have quite a few ball dominant players. Marcus Ottey is going to be a beast for the next few seasons.
Northern KentuckyNKU is going to get better. They have a very nice 7ft freshman next season. They'll lose one of their better players to transfer next season. Drew McDonald/Mason Faulkner/Carson Williams are good players. Drew McDonald is a first team player the next 2 seasons. They also are very well coach with Brannen. Nice arena, good booster support, and a commit University to the program. They are on the rise. We all give LeCrone a lot of crap and rightfully so, but he made to very shrewd moves bringing in NKU and OU to the conference.
Green BayGreen Bay is just a solid basketball program and their AD has done a really nice job always working with the resources provided to them. Made a great hire with Linc Darner. I'm not sure about his ability to recruit but he's a very good coach. Green Bay has a 1st team all conference player with Kerem Kanter and looks like they picked up a solid midseason transfer with Sandy Cohen, III who is a former 4 star recruit from Marquette. My buddy went to Marquette and I asked him about him and he said he's a little overrated but should be good with a MM program. They should be competitive for the foreseeable future.
Wright StateWright State made a great hire with Nagy who did a a good job at South Dakota (I'm not sure why he left SD? Was there for +20years and they may get an invite to the MVC) He's a good coach. They were surprisingly good this season. I have confidence he will make/maintain a level of competitiveness.
Detroit-MercyDetroit wasn't great this season but at least Bacari Alexander cleaned up the program and got rid of the trouble makers. They have a good Freshman in Corey Allen. Detroit also really invested in their coaching staff. They have the highest budget in all of the HL. Its a sign the University is still committed. It may take another few years but Detroit will be better in the future.
MilwaukeeMilwaukee also not great but they made a good hire in LaVall Jordan. It's going to take a few years.
YSU & CSUYSU & CSU moved on from their coaches and hopefully those new hires could turn around those programs. I have more faith in CSU then YSU. Tressel doesn't seem to care about Basketball. They opened up the check book on their Football program. I just want them to get a chance to go FBS in football. Apparently the MAAC isn't interested in adding another Ohio team (please take them MAAC 🙏). The only other option for YSU would be CAA which would probably cost too much for travel.
I don't know what to do with YSU especially if this era of YSU doesn't start working out after 3 yrs and if they don't start investing in their BBall program. They've started to spend a tad bit more but not a good commitment. Their Athletics Departments goals just don't match the Horizon Leagues being a Basketball League. Maybe the Presidents should consider voting them out if things don't turn around sometime in the next 5 yrs.
ValpoI don't need to tell you guys. You already know. We are in good shape under Coach Lottich, but we need to find the next Peters/Broekhoff though and we'd all like facility upgrades from President Heckler and Board of Directors. Budget is receiving good support and could even see an increase if we moved to the MVC.
That was an outstanding report! Thanks!
Quote from: VU2014 on March 23, 2017, 01:05:54 PMDetroit also really invested in their coaching staff. They have the highest budget in all of the HL.
Interesting point. Funny how Valpo had the highest paid coach in the conference who was also the highest paid employee at Valpo yet many on this board seem to think the Administration isn't committed to a successful basketball program.
One other point of note, UIC just did what Valpo couldn't do--they beat GW in the CBI tourney and now have advanced to the Semi-finals. Good for them!
George Washington is not the same team as last year......but good for uic. :thumbsup: :crazy:
Lol, Valpo did what GW could t do and that's get back to the NIT.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/29/15080936/conference-realignment-what-should-the-mvc-do-if-when-wichita-state-leaves-expansion-valley-shockers (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/29/15080936/conference-realignment-what-should-the-mvc-do-if-when-wichita-state-leaves-expansion-valley-shockers)
Conference realignment: What should the MVC do if (when) Wichita State leaves?
Okay, so before you get fired up and prepare to send me a strongly-worded tweet or email, I need you to accept two truths:
Wichita State is going to leave the Missouri Valley Conference eventually.
The Valley is no longer the premier mid-major conference.
The conference has been fighting a slow death since Creighton left in 2013 and if it wasn't for Wichita State, who knows what the MVC would look like. That will change when WSU jumps ship. At that point the Valley potentially falls behind the Sun Belt, MAC, Southern and Metro Atlantic conferences.
There aren't any realistic additions that can return the Valley to its mid-2000s level. Chew it up and eat it, the conference will never be the same.
However, the Valley can reinvent itself and remain relevant following the loss of the Shockers by adopting the A-10 method of expansion. Just 10 years ago the A-10 finished 11th in conference RPI, falling behind the MVC, Horizon and WAC. The A-10 is now America's best conference aside from the power conferences and Big East, thanks to the depth provided by adding Davidson, George Mason and VCU.
Option A: Go for big names
Saint Louis
I don't see this ever happening, especially with the current state of the Valley, so this is purely a dream scenario for Saint Louis to rejoin the MVC. However, this would be the first call I made if I'm Doug Elgin. Yes, SLU has finished with a 200-plus BPI in each of the last three years, which basically goes against everything I just said. But the three seasons before that were all 20-win campaigns with tournament runs. SLU was in the Valley for years, and its return would provide a boost to Arch Madness and give the league another consistent tournament (if we assume Travis Ford's recruiting translates on the court). SLU also ranked No. 77 nationally in attendance in 2015-16, ahead of Baylor, Gonzaga and Oklahoma State (and everyone in the Valley except Wichita State). Prying the Bilikens from the A-10 would be tough, but the Valley offers a more centrally-located conference schedule, which could be enticing for all sports.
Belmont
There aren't many mid-majors that have been better than Belmont over the last decade. Since 2005, the Bruins have averaged nearly 23 wins with seven NCAA Tournament appearances. Ricky Byrd has built something sustainable. The other draw is that Nashville to St. Louis isn't a terrible drive and the longest trip would be to Northern Iowa (650 miles), which is actually a shorter trip than Wichita is to Loyola. The attendance numbers aren't great but the quality of basketball is. Belmont routinely schedules well and since 2010 the Bruins have had an average BPI of 71.
Valparaiso
A Wichita State-less Missouri Valley isn't necessarily better than the Horizon, but the addition of Valpo would provide some stability. From a proximity standpoint Valparaiso is an easier travel destination for most Valley schools than Wichita State currently is. Its average attendance from 2015-16 (3,572) would rank ahead of only Drake and Loyola. Adding Valpo would give the Valley yet another elite mid-major program that has had sustained success through coaching and conference changes. Valpo has had an average BPI of 85.4 over the last five seasons.
Options B and C or laughable, not going to post them.
I don't see Option A happening even though it would be awesome. Would be great for Mid-Major Basketball to have a conference like this.
Anyone else seeing the rumors that Missouri State is strongly considering making the move to the Sun Belt Conference to reduce travel cost after this Wichita State move to the AAC. Been reading it on some message boards.
Some of the schools in the MVC are really not happy with the direction of the conference after the Creighton/WSU moves.
Quote from: VU2014 on March 30, 2017, 08:49:23 AM
Anyone else seeing the rumors that Missouri State is strongly considering making the move to the Sun Belt Conference to reduce travel cost after this Wichita State move to the AAC. Been reading it on some message boards.
Some of the schools in the MVC are really not happy with the direction of the conference after the Creighton/WSU moves.
I'd be ticked off if I were them - they would have had another at-large team had they added Valpo instead of Loyola.
[tweet]847341548685541376[/tweet]
ValpoPal with the BOMB SHELL!!!
Football parallel? Non-scholarship and poor performing 1-AA with high-end 1-AA?
Not so sure options B and C are so laughable; on their own or in some combination with A. Northern Kentucky and Denver seem to be programs with money that are in good markets. The Dakota schools have money and strong fan bases (but, of course, are miserable to travel to). I doubt SLU would go to the MVC because they seem to have a rather inflated view of themselves (they would think they should be in the Big East). Belmont would potentially seem to be a strong choice due to market size, performance and travel ease.
Not sure I'd want Valpo to join the MVCF... I guess its scholarship based conference and that would cost a ton of $. No thanks.
I'm perfectly fine with Valpo staying in the Pioneer League.
If the MVC forces Valpo to also join the MVCF to get an invite then I'd think we'd have to pass. Joining the MVCF would just be way too expensive and Valpo would never get its return on investment by starting that.
Quote from: VU2014 on March 30, 2017, 10:31:47 AM
Not sure I'd want Valpo to join the MVCF... I guess its scholarship based conference and that would cost a ton of $. No thanks.
I'm perfectly fine with Valpo staying in the Pioneer League.
If the MVC forces Valpo to also join the MVCF to get an invite then I'd think we'd have to pass. Joining the MVCF would just be way too expensive and Valpo would never get its return on investment by starting that.
My understanding is that a Valpo move to MVC would be with football remaining in Pioneer League.
First thought on this is no thanks, MVC without Wichita is dying. But it seems more and more every year the Horizon is bleeding players to transfer, coaches to bigger jobs (Brennen(sp?) already being talked about). I know part of this is the life of a mid major but it seems to be escalating more here. If MVC brings in us and Belmont, keeps ISU from leaving we could see a really good and competitive mid major conference form.
"Help us, Atlantic 10, you're our only hope."
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 30, 2017, 11:10:45 AM
First thought on this is no thanks, MVC without Wichita is dying. But it seems more and more every year the Horizon is bleeding players to transfer, coaches to bigger jobs (Brennen(sp?) already being talked about). I know part of this is the life of a mid major but it seems to be escalating more here. If MVC brings in us and Belmont, keeps ISU from leaving we could see a really good and competitive mid major conference form.
"Help us, Atlantic 10, you're our only hope."
The MVC isn't "dying" but it is a shell of itself just a few few years ago. I get what you mean though.
The Horizon League may have close the gap competitively to the MVC but its still imo probably a more consistently competitive league to what the Horizon League will be in the future. Almost just as importantly is that the MVC makes more $ then the HL and also gets its games on regional sports networks more frequently then the Horizon League.
The Pipe-dream scenario would be forming a new conference but that most likely won't happen. I wish we could get a bid to the A10 but that conference is already pretty bloated and I don't see us getting a bid. I keep asking myself why SLU is in the conference... they are no where near those other schools.
I think the only way ISU leaves the MVC is to possibly join the MAC to try and make that jump to FBS football. It's not secret they want to go FBS. They'd essentially be screwing their BBall program to try and elevate the football team. But seems pretty much par for the course for schools these days.
Quote from: VU2014 on March 30, 2017, 11:21:31 AM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 30, 2017, 11:10:45 AM
First thought on this is no thanks, MVC without Wichita is dying. But it seems more and more every year the Horizon is bleeding players to transfer, coaches to bigger jobs (Brennen(sp?) already being talked about). I know part of this is the life of a mid major but it seems to be escalating more here. If MVC brings in us and Belmont, keeps ISU from leaving we could see a really good and competitive mid major conference form.
"Help us, Atlantic 10, you're our only hope."
The MVC isn't "dying" but it is a shell of itself just a few few years ago. I get what you mean though.
The Horizon League may have close the gap competitively to the MVC but its still imo probably a more consistently competitive league to what the Horizon League will be in the future. Almost just as importantly is that the MVC makes more $ then the HL and also gets its games on regional sports networks more frequently then the Horizon League.
The Pipe-dream scenario would be forming a new conference but that most likely won't happen. I wish we could get a bid to the A10 but that conference is already pretty bloated and I don't see us getting a bid. I keep asking myself why SLU is in the conference... they are no where near those other schools.
I think the only way ISU leaves the MVC is to possibly join the MAC to try and make that jump to FBS football. It's not secret they want to go FBS. They'd essentially be screwing their BBall program to try and elevate the football team. But seems pretty much par for the course for schools these days.
Ask Creighton or even Butler why in the world they would be part of the Big East. Easy answer. Has nothing to do with the good of the student athlete. It is about exposure and money. I would love to be part of the A10. The academic makeup is so much better than the Horizon and if we were part of their conference it would more than likely be a three bid league.
Quote from: VU2014 on March 30, 2017, 08:49:23 AM
Anyone else seeing the rumors that Missouri State is strongly considering making the move to the Sun Belt Conference to reduce travel cost after this Wichita State move to the AAC. Been reading it on some message boards.
Some of the schools in the MVC are really not happy with the direction of the conference after the Creighton/WSU moves.
I'd wager that Missouri State would make a move to the Sun Belt (if offered) to gain FBS football status, not necessarily because of travel considerations.
I bet the MVC with Belmont and Valpo would be appealing to SLU. I understand they are in the better A10 conference, but viewing it from SLU's eyes they will reduce travel budget for all sports and might win ARCH Madness. They have better chance being successful in MVC than the A10.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 30, 2017, 12:14:00 PM
I bet the MVC with Belmont and Valpo would be appealing to SLU. I understand they are in the better A10 conference, but viewing it from SLU's eyes they will reduce travel budget for all sports and might win ARCH Madness. They have better chance being successful in MVC than the A10.
SLU has said in the past that they want less travel but that school (fans/AD/President) has a massive ego and they are willing to pay big travel costs to be in better A10 and have done for over a decade now. They want to be in the Big East and everyone knows it. They may get that invite in future (probably not the near future).
I just see the downside for SLU moving to the MVC unless you get more really good contending teams to come along with them to the MVC. SLU wants to be in a multi-bid league and SLU would not just move to the MVC by itself.
http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/119205/how-the-basketball-program-helped-gonzaga-university-flourish
"A great university needs to be nationally recognized in at least one sport" - O.P. Kretzmann
Great article on how Gonzaga was really helped by the basketball program. Wish our President and Board go the extra mile in investing in the team (not that the program isn't already very well supported by Mid-Major standards).
I also am sort of a skeptic though about dumping millions into athletics departments, particularly D1 football programs. It's mind boggling how much $ goes towards big time college football and many of the schools don't see a return on investment. It brings intangible value to schools by way of reputation and prestige of being a sports school but for many higher education institutions it just isn't logical. For smaller private school it is much more logical to focus resources on a Men's Basketball program where you can get the "prestige" factor. My buddy who went to Butler said Butlers applications skyrocketed after they went to the NCAA Finals those back to back years. It was great Pub for the University and also caused way more donations to the University from Alumni.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 30, 2017, 12:49:12 PM
http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/119205/how-the-basketball-program-helped-gonzaga-university-flourish
Check out the "Sports Talk" thread and the "ESPN Article on Gonzaga" topic. There are already 8 replies to this topic but the topic just focuses on this article.
BTW there are a number of MVC BB members that do not even play football and Drake is in the PFL. No concerns about having to upgrade FB. We would stay in the PFL.
"A great university needs to be nationally recognized in at least one sport" - O.P. Kretzmann
"Ahem. Is not our bowling team ranked?" - Mark Heckler
https://twitter.com/si_ncaabb/status/847639244545732611
Sources: Wichita State in talks to join AAC as soon as 2017-18
PHOENIX – The American Athletic Conference is engaged in talks to add Wichita State, according to multiple sources. The conversations have advanced to where a timeline for potential membership has emerged, including the possibility of Wichita State playing in the AAC as soon as next season.
There's strong mutual interest between both sides, and sources said that a final decision could be made within the next month or in as few as the next two weeks. Any decision would need to be approved by the American Athletic Conference's presidents, but the mutual interest is strong enough where neither side sees any looming issues.
The biggest lingering detail remains when Wichita State would leave the Missouri Valley Conference to begin play in the AAC. Sources said there's a strong chance that the Shockers could play in the AAC in the 2017-18 season, as both sides would prefer Wichita State avoiding playing a lame duck year in the Missouri Valley Conference.
Valley officials are prepared for the move, as one told Sports Illustrated on Thursday night: "We understand that this is in the works and that it's a strong possibility."
.........
Wichita State would join the American as a non-football member. The league is currently an 11-member basketball conference, giving Wichita State a natural spot as the 12th team. The Shockers would join in other non-football sports as well, including the school's perennially strong baseball program.
..........
The potential move appears mutually beneficial on paper. For Wichita State, it helps bolster their strength of schedule and national profile. For the AAC, it injects another program that's immediately competitive nationally to increase its national competitiveness.
Two weeks ago, Missouri Valley Commissioner Doug Elgin expressed his worry over a potential move to Sports Illustrated: "It wouldn't be a genuine response if I said we weren't concerned," Elgin said prior to the start of the NCAA tournament. "We want them to stay. Losing Creighton was a blow to the league. Losing Wichita State would be the same."
https://twitter.com/Matt_Fox10/status/847341548685541376
If we were offered a spot in the MVC, we shoot take it in a heartbeat. I like being in a conference that has more than one other private school. We have Detroit in the HL, but they really aren't similar in regards to academic profile, like an Evansville, Drake, Loyola, or Bradley would be for us.
Tx - I completely agree about going to the MVC, but please clarify your statement to Detroit's academic profile. Detroit has some excellent programs if I am not mistaken.
The MVC may generate more money and exposure now, however, that would all change significantly when the conference gets shook up. Long term? Still likely it would over the HL but the league seems to be unstable lately.
The MVC was a one bid league this year. Is that the new normal? If you have to win the league to get to the NCAAT, is it better to stay in the horizon? (Think gonzaga style)
Is there money to make the move? I believe Butler had to forfeit their NCAAT win shares when they switched, which is paid out over 6 seasons. Thats a lot of money to initially forfeit along with increased travel for all sports(although could be offset if the new league has multiple teams in NCAAT or makes a run)
What revenue has Valpo made recently on the tournament and tournament wins? Valpo needs to think this through and fast. This may also benefit the overall athletic and campus culture at Valpo - bringing the rivalry back with Evansville and Indiana State sounds enticing.
I think you make the move. I've said above i'm not sure the MVC is that much better than Horizon witout WSU, but I think the much outlined lack of confidence in Horizon leadership makes this a no brainer. I would love the A-10, but that call isn't coming. Arch Madness anyone?
If details like these are critical to a possible conference move, then stick with the Horizon conference. If you want to grow, and if it in the university charter to grow and get better, then the MVC enables this. Thousands in tournament revenue and traveling insignificantly longer distances is pocket change compared to the big picture.
Take a chance to be better!
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 31, 2017, 06:13:11 AM
Tx - I completely agree about going to the MVC, but please clarify your statement to Detroit's academic profile. Detroit has some excellent programs if I am not mistaken.
Valpo, Drake, Bradley, Evansville and Northern Iowa all rank higher than Detroit in the US NEWS rankings.
Detroit Mercy is in the top quartile of the Midwest in USN&WR, not bad when you consider they take a lot of kids from some pretty challenged high school systems. #24 ranking is not materially different than #20 Northern Iowa.
Kolpack: Key departures closing the gap between Summit and Valley
The word out there is the Valley will consider adding Belmont in Nashville, Tenn., Valparaiso and Texas-Arlington. That doesn't exactly look sexy on the top line of a league website.
http://www.inforum.com/sports/4240837-kolpack-key-departures-closing-gap-between-summit-and-valley
I don't care as much about the multi-bid, as I do in competing against schools with a similar profile to Valpo. I don't get geared up to play Cleveland State, Youngstown State, Wright State, etc. For some reason, I just like the idea of competing against other private schools on a more consistent basis. I think that we will have more rivalries in the MVC, versus what we have in the HL with only Oakland. We had a fling with Detroit, but that died down quickly.
If the MVC invites, Valpo should accept. The conference is a step up even without Wichita St. The MVC is wealthier than the Horizon League. As has been mentioned, many of the schools more closely align with Valparaiso as private universities ranked high academically. Arch Madness easily tops Motor City Madness, and I personally prefer St. Louis to Detroit, especially in March when St.Louis normally would be significantly warmer and without snow. An invitation to the MVC would be accompanied by expectations of facilities upgrades that VU would have to make sooner than now planned. Recruiting should be enhanced. Valpo football can remain in the Pioneer League. Finally, there is no love lost between Valparaiso and the Horizon League. ;)
Now, if I were the MVC, I'd try hard to replace Wichita St. with three schools instead of one. I'd do my best to get Valparaiso, Belmont, and ideally St. Louis, who should be intrigued by less travel and the idea of hosting the tournament. If not, perhaps Murray St. or a top tier team from the Horizon League or Summit League. Then split the MVC into two six-team divisions to accommodate travel even more and create a pair of fights for first place during the regular season to add even more excitement.
Perhaps we will see a preview of Valpo in the MVC environment when the baseball team plays Wichita St. this weekend while they are still MVC members.
Quote from: wh on March 31, 2017, 10:12:22 AM
Kolpack: Key departures closing the gap between Summit and Valley
The word out there is the Valley will consider adding Belmont in Nashville, Tenn., Valparaiso and Texas-Arlington. That doesn't exactly look sexy on the top line of a league website.
http://www.inforum.com/sports/4240837-kolpack-key-departures-closing-gap-between-summit-and-valley
I'm not sure Belmont is going to leave the OVC (even though it may be the best LT move). They have already turned down the MVC in the recent past. They were offered the join the conference before Loyola got the invite.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on March 31, 2017, 06:45:52 AM
The MVC may generate more money and exposure now, however, that would all change significantly when the conference gets shook up. Long term? Still likely it would over the HL but the league seems to be unstable lately.
The MVC was a one bid league this year. Is that the new normal? If you have to win the league to get to the NCAAT, is it better to stay in the horizon? (Think gonzaga style)
Is there money to make the move? I believe Butler had to forfeit their NCAAT win shares when they switched, which is paid out over 6 seasons. Thats a lot of money to initially forfeit along with increased travel for all sports(although could be offset if the new league has multiple teams in NCAAT or makes a run)
Yes there is more $ and exposure in the MVC and it really isn't comparable. The MVC also has better overall athletics when you include other sports.
We are not a position to pull the Gonzaga type school in the Horizon. Gonzaga's massive budget and administrative backing allows them to consistently dominate their conference. We just are not in a position to pull that role in the Horizon League. Belmont is also trying to pull that "dominate" a bad conference model in the OVC and it backfired on them this season.
In the current climate of Conference shifting Teams need to go to where they think the Conference will be the consistently (Key word: consistently) competitive and not experience down years. The MVC going to be a "one-bid" league most years now but will have an outside chance of being "2-bid" in great years.
Everyone needs to realize there is no "safe" move or "obvious" move up to a "2-bid" league (unless its to the A10). The MVC offers more for Valpo the Horizon League does even if its not the "obvious" move up to a 2-bid league. The deck is stacked against mid-majors these days and we have to best position ourselves.
Quote from: valpotx on March 31, 2017, 10:16:22 AM
I don't care as much about the multi-bid, as I do in competing against schools with a similar profile to Valpo. I don't get geared up to play Cleveland State, Youngstown State, Wright State, etc. For some reason, I just like the idea of competing against other private schools on a more consistent basis. I think that we will have more rivalries in the MVC, versus what we have in the HL with only Oakland. We had a fling with Detroit, but that died down quickly.
Oakland has to be high on the MVC list too.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 31, 2017, 10:37:07 AM
Quote from: valpotx on March 31, 2017, 10:16:22 AM
I don't care as much about the multi-bid, as I do in competing against schools with a similar profile to Valpo. I don't get geared up to play Cleveland State, Youngstown State, Wright State, etc. For some reason, I just like the idea of competing against other private schools on a more consistent basis. I think that we will have more rivalries in the MVC, versus what we have in the HL with only Oakland. We had a fling with Detroit, but that died down quickly.
Oakland has to be high on the MVC list too.
I haven't seen any public connection/speculation to Oakland yet. OU has seen recent basketball success but not really a history.
Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 10:40:23 AMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 31, 2017, 10:37:07 AMQuote from: valpotx on March 31, 2017, 10:16:22 AMI don't care as much about the multi-bid, as I do in competing against schools with a similar profile to Valpo. I don't get geared up to play Cleveland State, Youngstown State, Wright State, etc. For some reason, I just like the idea of competing against other private schools on a more consistent basis. I think that we will have more rivalries in the MVC, versus what we have in the HL with only Oakland. We had a fling with Detroit, but that died down quickly.
Oakland has to be high on the MVC list too.
I haven't seen any public connection/speculation to Oakland yet. OU has seen recent basketball success but not really a history.
I question the success......I don't think they have finished in the top 100 rpi in the last 10 years. If so, maybe once or twice.
Detroit location is not in the footprint of MVC.
Oakland loves the HL. They have one foot in LeCrones office and enjoy the tournament being held in their backyard. I bet Oakland AD would prefer the HL over the MVC.
Kolpack: Key departures closing the gap between Summit and Valley
By Jeff Kolpack
It was around 2008 and 2009 when the tour of North Dakota State football took us around the Missouri Valley Conference. Before heading to the stadium on Saturday mornings, it was always a priority to check out the basketball arenas at Valley members Illinois State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, Missouri State and Indiana State.
The initial impression was usually the same: NDSU is way out of its league, so to speak, to be a part of the Valley in all sports. Those schools had curb appeal. NDSU had the 1970s Bison Sports Arena.
So here it is several years later and Valley member Wichita State is rumored to be bolting for another conference—and thus the Valley will be searching for another league member or two.
Here's the question: Would NDSU even want to go?
I can't believe I just wrote that, but think about it. The Summit League is trending up and is adding the University of North Dakota in 2018-19. It's geographical friendly and everybody seems to be on board in investing in athletics. It has one of the best mid-major basketball conference tournaments around at the Denny Sanford Premier Center in Sioux Falls, S.D., and the caliber of overall play has taken a noticeable leap in recent years.
How else do you explain Oral Roberts finishing last?
The Missouri Valley would be trending down with the loss of Creighton three years ago and now Wichita. The hands-down, No. 1 powerful mid-major basketball conference would suddenly have lost two powers.
The Shockers are strongly rumored to be headed for the American Athletic Conference, which would be an upgrade with the likes of Houston, Cincinnati, Connecticut, SMU and Memphis. Creighton left for the Big East Conference to join a mostly-private consortium that includes St. John's, Butler, Marquette, Georgetown and DePaul.
Make no mistake, even without Wichita and Creighton, the Missouri Valley is a better basketball league than the Summit. But is a conference that includes Drake, Evansville, Loyola (Ill.) and Bradley all that appealing anymore? The difference in conference RPI this year between the Valley and Summit is not all that big and it was just a couple of years ago when the Summit was hanging around No. 11 of the 33 Division I leagues.
The word out there is the Valley will consider adding Belmont in Nashville, Tenn., Valparaiso :thumbsup: and Texas-Arlington :crazy:. That doesn't exactly look sexy on the top line of a league website.
The Valley fell victim to the bigger-market chase when it added Loyola after Creighton left. Get the big media market in Chicago, the theory goes. The Big Sky did the same thing when it added Northern Colorado and not NDSU and South Dakota State in 2006. The Sky liked the Denver market.
The problem is Loyola is down the food chain quite a bit in the Chicago sports scene and the care factor for UNC in the Denver can't be that great.
For the most part, market arguments at mid-major schools are a curiosity at best anyway. This isn't the Big Ten Network. IUPUI doesn't exactly blow up the Indianapolis market. A good mid-major league is more about a good core of schools that have some resources behind them.
NDSU, South Dakota, Omaha and IUPUI have new arenas. About the only Division II gym in the Summit now is Western Illinois.
The stakes are going up. Last week, it appears the Summit won a head-to-head coaching battle with the Missouri Valley when USD's Craig Smith declined the head coaching job at Valley member Drake. In prior years, if Drake, or any Missouri Valley school for that matter, offered a Summit coach a job, it would have been a no-brainer. (Ah, Horizon League's Wright State stole Summit League South Dakota State coach Nagy)
Moreover, it appears the Coyotes are upping their pay scale, too, giving Smith a raise to $275,000 a year in a three-year deal.
The gap is closing, financially and aesthetically, between the Valley and Summit. That didn't seem possible 10 years ago.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 31, 2017, 12:06:57 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 10:40:23 AMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 31, 2017, 10:37:07 AMQuote from: valpotx on March 31, 2017, 10:16:22 AMI don't care as much about the multi-bid, as I do in competing against schools with a similar profile to Valpo. I don't get geared up to play Cleveland State, Youngstown State, Wright State, etc. For some reason, I just like the idea of competing against other private schools on a more consistent basis. I think that we will have more rivalries in the MVC, versus what we have in the HL with only Oakland. We had a fling with Detroit, but that died down quickly.
Oakland has to be high on the MVC list too.
I haven't seen any public connection/speculation to Oakland yet. OU has seen recent basketball success but not really a history.
I question the success......I don't think they have finished in the top 100 rpi in the last 10 years. If so, maybe once or twice.
Detroit location is not in the footprint of MVC.
Oakland loves the HL. They have one foot in LeCrones office and enjoy the tournament being held in their backyard. I bet Oakland AD would prefer the HL over the MVC.
OU is far more than just bball. Not sure if that comes into play with swimming and soccer to name a few solid programs they have.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 31, 2017, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 31, 2017, 12:06:57 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 10:40:23 AMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 31, 2017, 10:37:07 AMQuote from: valpotx on March 31, 2017, 10:16:22 AMI don't care as much about the multi-bid, as I do in competing against schools with a similar profile to Valpo. I don't get geared up to play Cleveland State, Youngstown State, Wright State, etc. For some reason, I just like the idea of competing against other private schools on a more consistent basis. I think that we will have more rivalries in the MVC, versus what we have in the HL with only Oakland. We had a fling with Detroit, but that died down quickly.
Oakland has to be high on the MVC list too.
I haven't seen any public connection/speculation to Oakland yet. OU has seen recent basketball success but not really a history.
I question the success......I don't think they have finished in the top 100 rpi in the last 10 years. If so, maybe once or twice.
Detroit location is not in the footprint of MVC.
Oakland loves the HL. They have one foot in LeCrones office and enjoy the tournament being held in their backyard. I bet Oakland AD would prefer the HL over the MVC.
OU is far more than just bball. Not sure if that comes into play with swimming and soccer to name a few solid programs they have.
Yes they have a good athletics program but when evaluating adding a member to the Conference give HEAVY consideration the the $ making sports like Men's Basketball and Football.
I don't want to throw shade on but swimming, soccer, bowling, etc, are some what of after thoughts because they don't generate revenue. I have a very strong sense Conferences look at many other things before they consider if the swimming and soccer programs. But no doubt they have a strong athletics program.
One other thing to consider is that Oakland is really stretch the region for Travel. Also like Oklahomamick mentioned OU really likes the fact that the Tournament is in their backyard and is a semi-home game.
This article from early March in the Peoria Journal Star paints a fairly bleak picture of MVC in regards to MBB, compared to MVC glory years. Still think it would be step up for Valpo. Dreaming that maybe someday as has been suggested by others a Midwest based private school conference is formed and Valpo is included.
http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20170304/wessler-missouri-valley-teeters-on-verge-of-ugh
Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 01:23:14 PMYes they have a good athletics program but when evaluating adding a member to the Conference give HEAVY consideration the the $ making sports like Men's Basketball and Football.
How does the MVC make money in football when the MVC doesn't have football as a sport?
Quote from: covufan on March 31, 2017, 03:19:12 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 01:23:14 PMYes they have a good athletics program but when evaluating adding a member to the Conference give HEAVY consideration the the $ making sports like Men's Basketball and Football.
How does the MVC make money in football when the MVC doesn't have football as a sport?
The Valley does play football. The scholarship football teams in the MVC (Indiana State, Illinois State, Missouri State, Southern Illinois and Northern Iowa) are all in the MVFC along with ND State, SD State, South Dakota, Western Illinois and Youngstown State.
http://www.valley-football.org/
Quote from: vufan75 on March 31, 2017, 02:56:59 PM
Dreaming that maybe someday as has been suggested by others a Midwest based private school conference is formed and Valpo is included.
Bless you. You'll get my vote as commissioner.
Four private schools in the Valley might be interested. Four schools in the Summit with scholarship football want to be in the Valley. Hmmm...
Quote from: mgovalpo on March 31, 2017, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: covufan on March 31, 2017, 03:19:12 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 01:23:14 PMYes they have a good athletics program but when evaluating adding a member to the Conference give HEAVY consideration the the $ making sports like Men's Basketball and Football.
How does the MVC make money in football when the MVC doesn't have football as a sport?
The Valley does play football. The scholarship football teams in the MVC (Indiana State, Illinois State, Missouri State, Southern Illinois and Northern Iowa) are all in the MVFC along with ND State, SD State, South Dakota, Western Illinois and Youngstown State.
http://www.valley-football.org/
The MVC has not sponsored football since 1985. The conference you mention is a football only conference, not directly affiliated with the MVC.
Quote from: Lurking Dog on March 31, 2017, 03:44:15 PM
Quote from: vufan75 on March 31, 2017, 02:56:59 PM
Dreaming that maybe someday as has been suggested by others a Midwest based private school conference is formed and Valpo is included.
Bless you. You'll get my vote as commissioner.
Four private schools in the Valley might be interested. Four schools in the Summit with scholarship football want to be in the Valley. Hmmm...
Throw in Belmont and SLU and that would be a very competitive all private school Midwest Mid-Major Conference.
Quote from: covufan on March 31, 2017, 04:17:13 PM
Quote from: mgovalpo on March 31, 2017, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: covufan on March 31, 2017, 03:19:12 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 01:23:14 PMYes they have a good athletics program but when evaluating adding a member to the Conference give HEAVY consideration the the $ making sports like Men's Basketball and Football.
How does the MVC make money in football when the MVC doesn't have football as a sport?
The Valley does play football. The scholarship football teams in the MVC (Indiana State, Illinois State, Missouri State, Southern Illinois and Northern Iowa) are all in the MVFC along with ND State, SD State, South Dakota, Western Illinois and Youngstown State.
http://www.valley-football.org/
The MVC has not sponsored football since 1985. The conference you mention is a football only conference, not directly affiliated with the MVC.
While this is true, football is relevant in the discussion of a possible move by Valpo to the MVC, IMO. If by chance we do get invited to the MVC because WSU has left for the AAC, here's what I would want to know before making the move (some of these have nothing to do with basketball). I mentioned some these before awhile back, probably in this thread somewhere:
1) Is WAC FBS football is truly dead; that is, could the WAC ever sponsor FBS football in the future by way of an NCAA exception or exemption? A potential realignment item--FCS move-ups.
2) What is the likelihood of the NCAA reinstating the rule that an FBS conference must have 12 members to sponsor a football championship game? A potential realignment item--FCS move-ups.
3) How soon would Valpo receive an equitable allocation of monetary shares from the MVC? Money issue.
4) How strong of a private school alliance can be garnered by VU with other MVC private member schools should the MVC lose membership (Northern Iowa, SIU, Missouri State for example) because of football (see #1 and #2 above)? A potential realignment item.
5) Has the MVC exit fee been renegotiated more strongly to prevent additional member withdrawal as a result of the departures of WSU and Creighton? If not, why?
We have to worry exactly 0% for football issues if we were to stay in the HL, save for YSU. These questions become more critical with a move to the MVC.
Quote from: VU2014 on March 31, 2017, 05:57:57 PM
Quote from: Lurking Dog on March 31, 2017, 03:44:15 PM
Quote from: vufan75 on March 31, 2017, 02:56:59 PM
Dreaming that maybe someday as has been suggested by others a Midwest based private school conference is formed and Valpo is included.
Bless you. You'll get my vote as commissioner.
Four private schools in the Valley might be interested. Four schools in the Summit with scholarship football want to be in the Valley. Hmmm...
Throw in Belmont and SLU and that would be a very competitive all private school Midwest Mid-Major Conference.
THE BIG MIDWEST!!!!!
Why the hell not. There already is the Big East and The Big West.
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847977571132354560
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/sports/ct-ptb-valparaiso-mark-labarbera-st-0401-20170331-story.html
Valparaiso athletic director Mark LaBarbera talks hot-button topics in Q-and-A
By: Michael Osipoff
Post-Tribune
March 31, 2017
Before his annual trip to the men's basketball Final Four of the NCAA tournament, Valparaiso athletic director Mark LaBarbera spoke with the Post-Tribune.
Here are some highlights:
Q: How would you assess the job Matt Lottich did his first year of a five-year contract?
LaBarbera:.....
Q: There are reports that it's pretty much a foregone conclusion Wichita State is going to the AAC. Horizon League commissioner Jon LeCrone mentioned the possibility of expanding. With the moving parts, where does Valparaiso fit in? Is Valparaiso happy in the Horizon?
LaBarbera:.......
Q: So on the side you can control, would Valparaiso be interested in joining the Missouri Valley?
LaBarbera:......
Q: If favorite topic No. 2 is conference alignment, then favorite topic No. 1 is probably facilities. The locker room was redone and Hilltop was upgraded to make it more of a dedicated practice facility. What's next? Anything with the ARC arena?
LaBarbera:......
Q: So how about the arena proper?
LaBarbera:......
Q: How would you assess the football program? Obviously there were the underage drinking arrests a couple of years ago and ongoing challenges on the field. But is it heading in the right direction?
LaBarbera:........
mosipoff@post-trib.com
Twitter @MichaelOsipoff
A typically clever non-response response about the possibility of a conference change from Mark LaBarbera. Clearly, Valparaiso is waiting for an invitation from the Missouri Valley Conference, and there would be no regret or apologies in leaving the Horizon League:
Q: So on the side you can control, would Valparaiso be interested in joining the Missouri Valley?
LaBarbera: The Horizon League has been really good for us. We're just working on being the best program we can be. I'll leave it at that.
On another issue, ML doesn't present good news about facilities, which is discouraging. However, if the Missouri Valley extends an invitation, I can see moving forward with upgrading facilities as a part of the deal, which would be another good reason to root for the conference change:
Q: So how about the arena proper?
LaBarbera: As far as redoing the seats or more concessions, no, we haven't talked about that. What we've been talking about is how we can best accommodate the teams. Once we do that and everyone has the best practice and competition situation, then we have to figure out the amenities of the building.
Good to put the conversation on ARC remodeling to rest for a bit.
His reply to MVC as expected, the horizon HAS been great for us. Leaves realignment or new conference open.
I'm still not sure Conference chasing is good for us. I'm convinced Oakland is top 3 programs in HL or MVC...so leaving them behind is no bueno. I also like NKU very much.
I think Belmont or another quality Mid Major needs to be added to either the HL or MVC before I'm happy.
Fact is no Butler, Creighton or Wichita State means two mediocre conferences.
The MVC, with the likes of Evansville, Indiana State, Illinois State, Northern Iowa, S. Illinois, etc would present some good rivalries in a competitive league.
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847990131269226497
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847990221157408771
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847991639129849856
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847993246861193217
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847993564000915456
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847994770928668672
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847995078035615744
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847995400166543360
https://twitter.com/MichaelOsipoff/status/847997515400179713
I don't think people are complaining about having to play the teams in the HL. The HL and MVC have become more similar over the last 10 years. However, we have more natural rivalries in the MVC, versus what we will ever have in the HL. Oakland is really our only possibility of a rivalry in the HL. Detroit had potential, but that went away quickly. Evansville, Bradley, Drake, and Loyola are natural rivals in regards to academic profile and values.
Great extended interview with LaBarbera by Osipoff posted on Twitter! Lots of interesting issues that should provide inspiration for further conversation. Also, some news revealed: Vanderbilt will be playing a home-and-home with Valpo, probably beginning the year after next. LaBarbera admires Butler, but wishes they would agree to play Valpo again. Valpo apparently is waiting for an invitation from the Missouri Valley Conference, and possibility of a conference change is in their hands. LaBarbera still dislikes the tournament in Detroit and would rather have the on-site format, plus he's critical of things like lack of practice time at the tournament. LaBarbera also confides that no thought has been given to a significant renovation of the ARC (without a donor), which is discouraging, especially because nothing substantial has been done during the years since the Missouri Valley last considered Valpo. LaBarbera was disappointed by the NCAA's treatment of Jubril and Keith. As concluded here, Sorolla will serve his suspension at the start of next season. Fine insight given about Lexus transfer and Alec's injury. Other opinions or attitudes about the Horizon League and the NCAA can be gathered from reading between the lines of his comments.
Better leadership at mvc than HL. There is a higher ceiling at mvc.
Quote from: valpopal on March 31, 2017, 09:40:29 PMplus he's critical of things like lack of practice time at the tournament
We had the same amount of practice time as everyone else, we just chose not to use it. I found that response by him to be very unsatisfying.
Just because all the teams had the same amount of time to practice doesn't mean it's enough time. Is 30 minutes of practice worth spending x amount of dollars? How much practice would they have needed in order to pay the extra dollars to get there a day early may have been worth asking.
Quote from: M on April 01, 2017, 08:30:08 PM
Just because all the teams had the same amount of time to practice doesn't mean it's enough time. Is 30 minutes of practice worth spending x amount of dollars? How much practice would they have needed in order to pay the extra dollars to get there a day early may have been worth asking.
Apparently, 18 of 20 teams thought so.
Sorry M, but if you are going to pinch pennies when the conference tournament is at stake, you might as well get out of Division 1 basketball.
I don't disagree at all, just think maybe that's the question that could've been asked.
It's my belief, they thought a full day of practice and preparation at home was worth more than a 30 minute shooting around and then just sitting the rest of the day in Detroit.
Quote from: M on April 01, 2017, 08:30:08 PM
Just because all the teams had the same amount of time to practice doesn't mean it's enough time. Is 30 minutes of practice worth spending x amount of dollars? How much practice would they have needed in order to pay the extra dollars to get there a day early may have been worth asking.
Here is what I think happened: With both the women and men in the same space we were limited to 30 minutes on the court. Matt chose to spend more time practicing together at U of D. It isn't that we didn't want to spend the money, it is rather that we had a choice, a bad one which shouldn't have been available to the co-champions. Stop blaming Valpo for not wanting to spent the money. Total BS.
Quote from: vu72 on April 01, 2017, 10:38:38 PM
Quote from: M on April 01, 2017, 08:30:08 PM
Just because all the teams had the same amount of time to practice doesn't mean it's enough time. Is 30 minutes of practice worth spending x amount of dollars? How much practice would they have needed in order to pay the extra dollars to get there a day early may have been worth asking.
Here is what I think happened: With both the women and men in the same space we were limited to 30 minutes on the court. Matt chose to spend more time practicing together at U of D. It isn't that we didn't want to spend the money, it is rather that we had a choice, a bad one which shouldn't have been available to the co-champions. Stop blaming Valpo for not wanting to spent the money. Total BS.
Then don't bitch about it in the postgame show or the press conference.
Everybody else made it work for them. Our team is the only one complaining about it.
Obviously they didn't complain vociferously and I think ML is sincere when he says that's not the reason we lost (though it is kind of hard to sell that when NKU also declined). But a little bit of that complaining did leak out after the game, and it still annoys me. By the way, I'm not at all sure that extra expense was the responsibility of the individual schools. Somewhere I think I heard that the conference would pay for the extra day.
I dunno, I still don't get the Valpo story on this, it doesn't make sense to me.
Quote from: Lurking Dog on March 31, 2017, 03:44:15 PM
Quote from: vufan75 on March 31, 2017, 02:56:59 PM
Dreaming that maybe someday as has been suggested by others a Midwest based private school conference is formed and Valpo is included.
Bless you. You'll get my vote as commissioner.
Four private schools in the Valley might be interested. Four schools in the Summit with scholarship football want to be in the Valley. Hmmm...
This is my hope. Start with Drake, Bradley, Evansville, Loyola, Detroit and Valpo. Then look at Belmont, Lipscomb, Oral Roberts, Robert Morris...any other private I missed. Is this better than the HL or MVC ? Probably not but this is where I wish we were.
It starts when Wichita bolts. Missouri State, Illinois State and Northern Iowa maybe look elsewhere.
We need to be active and alert to what is going on.
When Loyola was admitted to the Missouri Valley Conference, the league's officials announced they were seriously considering expanding to 12 teams in the future. As I have mentioned before, I think the way to compensate for losing Wichita State would be for the MVC to add three schools that would assist the stature of the conference. My ideal three would be Valparaiso, Belmont, and St. Louis. I have no doubt Valpo would accept. Although Belmont reportedly decided not to join the MVC in the past, I think they could be convinced. If St. Louis can not be persuaded, there are other possible third teams, perhaps Murray State as a traveling partner for Belmont (Valpo and Loyola would be perfect travel partners). All three are in the MVC footprint. In any case, competition for first place in two six-team divisions would add excitement, and the three would help ease the loss of Wichita State, which no single addition would be able to do. Having said all that: if the MVC adds only one team, I see Belmont and St. Louis as the only valid programs ahead of Valpo. On the other hand, if the MVC did add three teams and Valpo were not invited, that would be a significant snub and re-evaluation of the Valpo program would need to be made.
Quote from: valpopal on April 02, 2017, 12:26:46 PM
When Loyola was admitted to the Missouri Valley Conference, the league's officials announced they were seriously considering expanding to 12 teams in the future. As I have mentioned before, I think the way to compensate for losing Wichita State would be for the MVC to add three schools that would assist the stature of the conference. My ideal three would be Valparaiso, Belmont, and St. Louis. I have no doubt Valpo would accept. Although Belmont reportedly decided not to join the MVC in the past, I think they could be convinced. If St. Louis can not be persuaded, there are other possible third teams, perhaps Murray State as a traveling partner for Belmont (Valpo and Loyola would be perfect travel partners). All three are in the MVC footprint. In any case, competition for first place in two six-team divisions would add excitement, and the three would help ease the loss of Wichita State, which no single addition would be able to do. Having said all that: if the MVC adds only one team, I see Belmont and St. Louis as the only valid programs ahead of Valpo. On the other hand, if the MVC did add three teams and Valpo were not invited, that would be a significant snub and re-evaluation of the Valpo program would need to be made.
Making a Mid Major version of the ACC or B1G may not be all positive. Right now the likes of St Louis, VU and Illinois State can all get automatic bids.
Put all three of us in the same conference and you exchange (3) for (1) automatic bid...and (1) at-large bid at best. So in short, is (2) bids with a mega conference better than (3) bids without?
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 02, 2017, 12:41:44 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 01, 2017, 10:38:38 PM
Quote from: M on April 01, 2017, 08:30:08 PM
Just because all the teams had the same amount of time to practice doesn't mean it's enough time. Is 30 minutes of practice worth spending x amount of dollars? How much practice would they have needed in order to pay the extra dollars to get there a day early may have been worth asking.
Here is what I think happened: With both the women and men in the same space we were limited to 30 minutes on the court. Matt chose to spend more time practicing together at U of D. It isn't that we didn't want to spend the money, it is rather that we had a choice, a bad one which shouldn't have been available to the co-champions. Stop blaming Valpo for not wanting to spent the money. Total BS.
Then don't bitch about it in the postgame show or the press conference.
Everybody else made it work for them. Our team is the only one complaining about it.
Obviously they didn't complain vociferously and I think ML is sincere when he says that's not the reason we lost (though it is kind of hard to sell that when NKU also declined). But a little bit of that complaining did leak out after the game, and it still annoys me. By the way, I'm not at all sure that extra expense was the responsibility of the individual schools. Somewhere I think I heard that the conference would pay for the extra day.
I dunno, I still don't get the Valpo story on this, it doesn't make sense to me.
[/b]
Here is the press conference. Matt starts in on it at about the 30 second point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIWO3dxVnO8
Valpo, Belmont, and Oral Roberts. ORU has been down for a few years, but wow, that was a rivalry!!
That was a good rivalry way back when. However, ORU is now a nearly 300 RPI team, requires plane flights for teams to get there (canceling out any revenue benefits of a new conference), and would make any conference that adds them worse, not better. Oh, and by all accounts their administration was an absolute nightmare to deal with back in the old Mid-Con days. I'll pass, thanks.
ORU seems to be a university on the downswing enrollment wise and financially. I doubt the MVC would pursue them, they would look at Valpo, Belmont and SLU first. UMKC would be a better selection
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 02, 2017, 10:25:01 PM
ORU seems to be a university on the downswing enrollment wise and financially. I doubt the MVC would pursue them, they would look at Valpo, Belmont and SLU first. UMKC would be a better selection
Definitely. FYI - There are only 5 Div-I programs in the state of Missouri -- UMKC being one of them. They presently belong to the WAC (they don't call it the WAC for no reason - its footprint covers the entire US west of the Mississippi River plus Chicago). The WAC is comprised of:
NMSU - Las Cruces, NM
Chicago State - Chicago, IL
UT Rio Grande Valley - Near Brownsville, TX
Utah Valley - Oram Utah
Grand Canyon University - Phoenix, AZ
Cal State Bakersfield, Bakersfield CA
Seattle University, Seattle, WA
UMKC 2016-17 record was:
Overall - 18-17
WAC - 8-6
WAC Seed - #3 - lost to eventual champion NMSU in the semi's 60-78
Sports: Standard offering (6 Men, 8 women) but no S&D and no Football
Home arena - Municipal Auditorium (Cap. 9,987)
Other Facilities - 850 seat soccer-specific stadium ($9million)
Notable 2016-2017 Results:
Creighton (L)
Drake (W)
Bowling Green (w)
Murray State (W)
SE Missouri (W)
South Dakota (W)
SDSU (L)
Kansas (L)
WVU (l)
UT-Martin (L)
Mississippi State (l)
As of March 13, 2017
RPI = 184 (VU 71), SOS 145 (VU 187)
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 01, 2017, 02:44:49 PM
Quote from: valpopal on March 31, 2017, 09:40:29 PMplus he's critical of things like lack of practice time at the tournament
We had the same amount of practice time as everyone else, we just chose not to use it. I found that response by him to be very unsatisfying.
Yes, everyone got the same 20 minutes of practice. What he is saying has nothing to do with that 20 minute practice time, it has to do with the court familiarity of a team haveing just played a game on that court versus a team that had a 20 minute shoot around 36 hours before.
As I said on another thread, from a coaching standpoint a 20 minute shooting session 36 hours before a playoff game doesn't really cut it for me. I doubt that it would have much if any positive effect on performance. I agree with ML that the teams should get practice time (I am not talking the 20 minute variety here) on the court preferably the day of the game and that more needs to be done in order for the teams, that don't play in the opening round, to be comfortable on the court. Especially if you are trying to protect the higher seed.
FWalum, I collected your Forever Valpo post to support the post below:
Quote from: FWalum on Today at 09:20:10 AM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 01, 2017, 03:22:38 PM
Quote from: crusader05 on March 28, 2017, 08:41:08 AM
I thought the coach nixed the shoot around but not sure. Also, I don't know what you mean regarding the Jubril situation but from what I've heard the university spent quite a bit of money fighting for Jubril with the NCAA
Both Lottich and Gore complained about it in their postgame comments, so I'm guessing they weren't the ones who nixed it. I'm more perplexed by the subtext I infer from ML's interview that seems to blame this on the HL.
My take on this comes more from a coaching standpoint. A 20 minute shooting session 36 hours before a playoff game doesn't really cut it for me. I doubt that it would have much if any positive effect on performance. I agree with ML that the teams should get practice time (I am not talking the 20 minute variety here) on the court preferably the day of the game and that more needs to be done in order for the teams, that don't play in the opening round, to be comfortable on the court.
Spot on. Before a practice or a game the players need to stretch and gradually get limber -- that takes 20 minutes alone - and only a small portion of that might be able to be done in the locker room. To expect players to be loose and muscles warm at the start of the 20 minute "practice period" is ridiculous. Even if they start shooting right away, cold, it will take the 20 minutes alone just to get into some sort of shooting rhythm and by then it's over. Each player can't even cover all of the shooting spots and angles (and at both ends of the court) in that time much less shoot 20-25 FTs against both backdrops.
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Part of the issue is that the HL in its wisdom pulled both MBB and WBB tournaments into the same facilities on the same weekend. That means 20 teams vying for playing floor practice time. The MVC has separate, neutral venues.
LeCrone isn't qualified to run the Summit Athletic Conference in Ft. Wayne made up of high schools. How many poor decisions made by LaC will be tolerated until a change in leadership is made?
I believe that Oral Roberts has been in BIG financial difficulty for the past few years.
Heck no to UMKC. Another commuter/directional school is not my preference. In spite of the recent downgrade in performance, I would still like to see ORU. Then again, I am a private school conference snob :).
Quote from: valpo64 on April 03, 2017, 10:07:37 AM
LeCrone isn't qualified to run the Summit Athletic Conference in Ft. Wayne made up of high schools. How many poor decisions made by LaC will be tolerated until a change in leadership is made?
LeCrone has made many questionable decisions:-He completely kissed Butler's @$$ while they were in the HL (somewhat understandable but still...)
-Didn't capitalize off of the Butler success in the Horizon to attract other schools
-Lack of ability by the HL HQ to get Horizon League teams on Local/Regional Sports Networks is not acceptable.
-The Motor City Madness is sort of a flop. (It grew slightly last yr but is still looks questionable)
-He openly admitted that the MCM Tourney depends on Oakland/Detroit fans to pack the building and its pretty much a semi home game
-Oakland was a good addition to the HL, but it was an obvious one and anyone with a brain saw the natural fit
-I will give him credit for the NKU acquisition. An up and coming school/basketball team.
-BUT HL HQ let them in the League the year the League had a Team that had a chance to get an outright bid to the Tourney! Dragged down the RPI and strength of schedule AND very possibly cost the HL Unit $$ and great PR in the Tourney!
-I did like the rumored Tourney Format that they once proposed which would have been double elimination but NCAA shot it down.
Quote from: valpo64 on April 03, 2017, 10:09:40 AM
I believe that Oral Roberts has been in BIG financial difficulty for the past few years.
Oral Roberts doesn't have the budget to consistently compete and the administration there is sort of losing its marbles.
Quote from: valpotx on April 03, 2017, 10:29:53 AM
Heck no to UMKC. Another commuter/directional school is not my preference. In spite of the recent downgrade in performance, I would still like to see ORU. Then again, I am a private school conference snob :).
I never really understood why people recommend UMKC. They don't have a recent track record of being competitive. I get that they are in the region but they are not a great Basketball program. Just always puzzling to me why they even come up in conversation.
I guess it's time to start making predictions. If (or I guess "When") WSU leaves the MVC, and the Valley wants to move back to ten teams, team #10 will be UIC. If the Valley wants to move to 12 teams this time around, the three schools offered will be UWM, UIC and VU to fill out the NE oval of the MVC geographically. Belmont already declined interest the first time around apparently, and I just can't see Murray moving their football to the MVFC, so they will both stay put. Anyway, that's my prediction.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 03, 2017, 12:44:56 PM
I guess it's time to start making predictions. If (or I guess "When") WSU leaves the MVC, and the Valley wants to move back to ten teams, team #10 will be UIC. If the Valley wants to move to 12 teams this time around, the three schools offered will be UWM, UIC and VU to fill out the NE oval of the MVC geographically. Belmont already declined interest the first time around apparently, and I just can't see Murray moving their football to the MVFC, so they will both stay put. Anyway, that's my prediction.
I do not think UIC will be the 10th team if they go 10. The MVC already got their "Chicago Market" Team.
The buzz is for SLU, Belmont and VU. First 2 are semi-unlikely (particularly SLU). Also Murray State comes up in rumors frequently.
When they lose WSU is likely to be next season. It's been pretty well reported that the WSU and the AAC want them in conference for the 2017-2018 season. Seems more likely it will be next season.
I actually think they go 12 teams if they can get the right 3. They know they won't be able to replace WSU so they try and add the best teams possible that also offer the best "fit".
-SLU
-Belmont
-Valpo
-Murray State
Wild-Cards-North Dakota State
-South Dakota State
-South Dakota
Seems like they are happy in the Summit League. Only way the Dakotas were to join is if it was a package deal. You at least take 2 or all 3.
Next Tier-SIUE
-Denver has been rumored also
-Omaha
The "Dakota schools" have taken over the Summit League. Talk about travel expense, I believe that IPFW made 3 separate trips out there during this past season. Their conference tourney is also held out there. Talk about a coup!
Quote-BUT HL HQ let them in the League the year the League had a Team that had a chance to get an outright bid to the Tourney! Dragged down the RPI and strength of schedule AND very possibly cost the HL Unit $$ and great PR in the Tourney!
Yes, this is not talked about enough. NKU proved their mettle this year, but the HL allowing them in last season when they were still under reclassification was so dumb, and it hurt the HL. Wins against "reclassifying" teams are typically set aside by the committee (that used to be the rule - even if it's changed it's hard to believe they weren't thoroughly discounted in the committee's minds), so not only did VU take an unnecessary two-game RPI hit, they took that RPI hit and got no credit in their win total in the committee room! That is just horrendously poor planning on the HL's part and it likely cost the league a few million dollars worth of tourney unit payouts. So dumb.
Quote from: valpo64 on April 03, 2017, 01:33:20 PMThe "Dakota schools" have taken over the Summit League. Talk about travel expense, I believe that IPFW made 3 separate trips out there during this past season. Their conference tourney is also held out there. Talk about a coup!
Coup....like how Mercy and especially Oakland pushed and promoted Motor City Madness.
Not that the MVC would invite Oakland, but I would say the Grizz would turn it down with one of the biggest reasons being the conference tournament being held in Detroit.
The Dakota's love their situation with the tourney being near.
This is why I think SLU will listen to the mvc when they come calling. Arch Madness
A Valpo student radio show is going to be interview Mark Adams who is an expert college basketball analyst on ESPN and the Lead National College Basketball Analyst on American Sports Network. He is really plugged into the Mid-Major Basketball.
They are going to talk about Wichita State leaving the MVC on WVUR at 7pm central time.
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/848980282942337025
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/848986552856432641
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 03, 2017, 09:57:37 AMPart of the issue is that the HL in its wisdom pulled both MBB and WBB tournaments into the same facilities on the same weekend. That means 20 teams vying for playing floor practice time. The MVC has separate, neutral venues.
It seemed to work fine when there were 16 teams in the old mid-con. Maybe if we just excluded 9 and 10, it would be fine?
I don't know that I get this yet.
Quote from: FWalum on April 03, 2017, 09:46:37 AM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 01, 2017, 02:44:49 PM
Quote from: valpopal on March 31, 2017, 09:40:29 PMplus he's critical of things like lack of practice time at the tournament
We had the same amount of practice time as everyone else, we just chose not to use it. I found that response by him to be very unsatisfying.
Yes, everyone got the same 20 minutes of practice. What he is saying has nothing to do with that 20 minute practice time, it has to do with the court familiarity of a team haveing just played a game on that court versus a team that had a 20 minute shoot around 36 hours before.
As I said on another thread, from a coaching standpoint a 20 minute shooting session 36 hours before a playoff game doesn't really cut it for me. I doubt that it would have much if any positive effect on performance. I agree with ML that the teams should get practice time (I am not talking the 20 minute variety here) on the court preferably the day of the game and that more needs to be done in order for the teams, that don't play in the opening round, to be comfortable on the court. Especially if you are trying to protect the higher seed.
I thought it was 30 minutes. Now it's 20 minutes?
Other teams made it work for them. If 30 minutes for the whole tournament is not enough time (did the semifinal teams not get time on JLA floor, say Sunday morning or Monday morning?), that's at least a rational reason, but I'm still kind of stuck on this.
Thanks for the perspective, it does help a little.
There isn't a chance in hell that SLU leaves the A-10 to go to a watered down MVC. The A-10 is still a multi-bid conference that has schools that can make deep runs in the NCAAs. Without WSU, the MVC is a one bid conference. They turned down an invite to the MVC when Creighton left. They aren't going to join now when the conference is weaker. Belmont turned down the MVC last go around too. They aren't leaving the OVC. They like being the big dog in that conference.
Quote from: Big D on April 03, 2017, 07:42:11 PM
There isn't a chance in hell that SLU leaves the A-10 to go to a watered down MVC. The A-10 is still a multi-bid conference that has schools that can make deep runs in the NCAAs. Without WSU, the MVC is a one bid conference. They turned down an invite to the MVC when Creighton left. They aren't going to join now when the conference is weaker. Belmont turned down the MVC last go around too. They aren't leaving the OVC. They like being the big dog in that conference.
Can we get back to fantasy conference making now???
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 03, 2017, 07:21:49 PM
Quote from: FWalum on April 03, 2017, 09:46:37 AM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 01, 2017, 02:44:49 PM
Quote from: valpopal on March 31, 2017, 09:40:29 PMplus he's critical of things like lack of practice time at the tournament
We had the same amount of practice time as everyone else, we just chose not to use it. I found that response by him to be very unsatisfying.
Yes, everyone got the same 20 minutes of practice. What he is saying has nothing to do with that 20 minute practice time, it has to do with the court familiarity of a team haveing just played a game on that court versus a team that had a 20 minute shoot around 36 hours before.
As I said on another thread, from a coaching standpoint a 20 minute shooting session 36 hours before a playoff game doesn't really cut it for me. I doubt that it would have much if any positive effect on performance. I agree with ML that the teams should get practice time (I am not talking the 20 minute variety here) on the court preferably the day of the game and that more needs to be done in order for the teams, that don't play in the opening round, to be comfortable on the court. Especially if you are trying to protect the higher seed.
I thought it was 30 minutes. Now it's 20 minutes?
Other teams made it work for them. If 30 minutes for the whole tournament is not enough time (did the semifinal teams not get time on JLA floor, say Sunday morning or Monday morning?), that's at least a rational reason, but I'm still kind of stuck on this.
Thanks for the perspective, it does help a little.
It doesn't help me. A year ago the Bryce Drew-led Crusaders lose their 1st game in the tournament in O.T against an inferior team that played the day before, and we spend the next 12 months blaming the tournament format and vilifying the HL. Now we learn that we blew off an opportunity to get pre-game court time because the time wasn't convenient - or we were insulted by our time slot - or we didn't want to spend an extra day in Detroit - or we didn't want to spend the money - or something. Now we find ourselves in an identical situation a year later, and lose again. Matt's postgame comments mislead everyone into thinking we were given no court time prior to the game (which would help explain a 12-point 1st half by a severely depleted roster), only to later learn that we were given court time, and somehow incredibly blew off the opportunity -again. Then we learn that we were 1 of only 2 of 20 total teams to blow off our scheduled shoot around. These are inexcusable missteps for a high school coaching staff to make, let alone the D-1 staff of a league-leading team. Maybe we should try something new next year. Get our butts up there early like everyone else, follow the program like everyone else, and quit acting like a bunch of entitled kids.
well, the conference realignment discussion escalates starting today!
Quote from: VU2014 on April 03, 2017, 12:53:35 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 03, 2017, 12:44:56 PM
I guess it's time to start making predictions. If (or I guess "When") WSU leaves the MVC, and the Valley wants to move back to ten teams, team #10 will be UIC. If the Valley wants to move to 12 teams this time around, the three schools offered will be UWM, UIC and VU to fill out the NE oval of the MVC geographically. Belmont already declined interest the first time around apparently, and I just can't see Murray moving their football to the MVFC, so they will both stay put. Anyway, that's my prediction.
I do not think UIC will be the 10th team if they go 10. The MVC already got their "Chicago Market" Team.
The buzz is for SLU, Belmont and VU. First 2 are semi-unlikely (particularly SLU). Also Murray State comes up in rumors frequently.
When they lose WSU is likely to be next season. It's been pretty well reported that the WSU and the AAC want them in conference for the 2017-2018 season. Seems more likely it will be next season.
I actually think they go 12 teams if they can get the right 3. They know they won't be able to replace WSU so they try and add the best teams possible that also offer the best "fit".
-SLU
-Belmont
-Valpo
-Murray State
Wild-Cards
-North Dakota State
-South Dakota State
-South Dakota
Seems like they are happy in the Summit League. Only way the Dakotas were to join is if it was a package deal. You at least take 2 or all 3.
Next Tier
-SIUE
-Denver has been rumored also
-Omaha
The "Chicago Market" is a bit of a misnomer, IMO. It exists, but it must be looked at in the reverse in this instance, as when Loyola was added to the MVC. Don't focus on the schools located
within the Chicagoland area; instead, focus on the schools that are located
outside of it. If more alumni from other Valley schools who work and live in Chicago can catch a game in Chicago with the addition of UIC, UIC provides value, IMO. Never mind that their athletic facilities are superior to Valpo's, UIC provides value.
I think Valpo would be a mutually great fit for the Valley. I have a bad feeling Heckler is going to mess this up.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 04, 2017, 09:04:54 AMI think Valpo would be a mutually great fit for the Valley. I have a bad feeling Heckler is going to mess this up.
what makes you say that?
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 04, 2017, 09:04:54 AM
I think Valpo would be a mutually great fit for the Valley. I have a bad feeling Heckler is going to mess this up.
Do you think Heckler would shoot down an invite? If I'm in his shoes I would do whatever Mark LaBarbera recommends. LaBarbera is way more in the know of the NCAA Conference landscapes then President Heckler. (or at least I'm guess he's not taking a deep dive into it).
Mark Adams was on the WVUR last night and he talked about who he thinks is going to get the invite.
Some Interesting things he said:-SLU is almost definitely not joining the MVC (no surprise).
-Belmont is likely the 2nd call. Still seems questionable they'd jump to the OVC. They like being the Big Fish in a pond full of Minnows.
-He's heard Valpo is strongly being considered again
-UIC was strongly considered last time but doesn't think they'll get considered as much this time. Only way they get in is if the Valley wants to create a rivalry. Was there ever a "heated" rivalry between Loyola and UIC in the HL?
-Murray State may be considered because they have a strong basketball past.
-I got the sense that he thinks the MVC may want to stay at 10 teams, because they've always in the past wanted to limit the league to 10 teams. But still a chance they'd go 12 and create divisions. There was some buzz for 12 I've seen online.
-The MVC Commissioner Doug Elgin and the Horizon League Commission Jon LeCrone are very close and very good friends. Adams brought it up in the interview and hinted that it may influence who Elgin pushes for. May not want to hurt his friend anymore. But also mention that the Commissioners have the obligation to do whats best for the conference. Just another storyline underlining this situation. How ironic would it be that LeCrone screws Valpo again?
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/849269377790861312
https://twitter.com/MattSBN/status/849269875298250752
https://twitter.com/MattSBN/status/849270558533595136
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/849270342573072385
https://twitter.com/MattSBN/status/849271211985182722
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/849271528957120513
I enjoy reading all the speculation. This one from today's Omaha World-Herald lists Valpo as a possible replacement for Wichita State at the MVC, but it also cites "several sources" that the Horizon League is looking to expand by 2 or 4 teams:
If Wichita bolts, the Valley will be left scrambling. Valparaiso, a Horizon school, might be high on the Valley's list of replacements. The Valley could also look at UNO, bringing the city of Omaha back into the league to fill the void left by Creighton.
Several sources say the Horizon League is looking to expand by two schools, and perhaps four. The reason: improving the league's basketball profile but also providing more conference games and, thus, more home game revenue for members.
http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-if-when-wichita-state-kicks-off-mid-major-realignment/article_5759bc6e-fdd1-5542-a1b6-b3fbd08ac62b.html (http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-if-when-wichita-state-kicks-off-mid-major-realignment/article_5759bc6e-fdd1-5542-a1b6-b3fbd08ac62b.html)
Quote from: valpopal on April 04, 2017, 10:09:26 AM
I enjoy reading all the speculation. This one from today's Omaha World-Herald lists Valpo as a possible replacement for Wichita State at the MVC, but it also cites "several sources" that the Horizon League is looking to expand by 2 or 4 teams:
If Wichita bolts, the Valley will be left scrambling. Valparaiso, a Horizon school, might be high on the Valley's list of replacements. The Valley could also look at UNO, bringing the city of Omaha back into the league to fill the void left by Creighton.
Several sources say the Horizon League is looking to expand by two schools, and perhaps four. The reason: improving the league's basketball profile but also providing more conference games and, thus, more home game revenue for members.
http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-if-when-wichita-state-kicks-off-mid-major-realignment/article_5759bc6e-fdd1-5542-a1b6-b3fbd08ac62b.html (http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-if-when-wichita-state-kicks-off-mid-major-realignment/article_5759bc6e-fdd1-5542-a1b6-b3fbd08ac62b.html)
Interesting. So it divides the already meager Horizon League revenues even more but the plan is to try and recoup revenue by having more Conference Home Games. Also with the hopes that the new teams will increase the competitiveness of the league. The teams the Horizon Leagues adds better be the right schools if they do this.
The Horizon would have to be hoping to poach from the OVC, Summit and the MVC. I'm not sure a Illinois State, UNI, Evansville, or a Indiana State would leave the MVC for the HL. Only teams I'd want from the OVC would be Belmont or Murray State.
I'm not sure I see any fits in the Summit League. The Dakota Schools are too much travel. I do not want UIPUI in the HL at all. If the Horizon is strongly taking a look at the IUPUI then its time for us to leave. Same with IPFW. No thank you to Oral Roberts either. Too much travel and that schools isn't competitive anymore and the school is headed the wrong direction.
I really only see fits in the MVC and OVC. I don't think any A10 schools would seriously consider joining the Horizon League.
Because of Heckler's low energy toward athletics at Valpo and because Valpo has been overly conservative fiscally, I do not think the decision will be a slam dunk - not for the MVC perspective but for Valpo. If Valpo join, it will cost more - facilites will need to be upgraded in a more expeditious manner, more travel expense, likely more recruiting expenses, etc.
That being said, a move from the Horizon with a clown commissioner to the MVC with better overall tradition and leadership would be a wise move.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 04, 2017, 11:50:29 AM
Because of Heckler's low energy toward athletics at Valpo and because Valpo has been overly conservative fiscally, I do not think the decision will be a slam dunk - not for the MVC perspective but for Valpo. If Valpo join, it will cost more - facilites will need to be upgraded in a more expeditious manner, more travel expense, likely more recruiting expenses, etc.
That being said, a move from the Horizon with be clown commissioner to the MVC with better overall tradition and leadership would be a wise move.
I agree the move to the MVC would be better. Better leadership, More $ and more likely to have consistently competitive teams.
I think even if we make that leap to the MVC we'd be still rolling with the same facilities. Maybe a few minor upgrades here and there but I don't think Heckler has any plans to pursue basketball on a very serious level. MLB pretty much indirectly said that in the interview with Paul.
I will say in defense of Heckler that he has opened the pocket book much more then Harre ever did from what I've heard and is much more willing to spend on new buildings. I think its on MLB to fundraise for the Athletics Department but for a big project like a new Rec Center for Students and renovations of the ARC it will NEED the full backing of Heckler and have him make a priority for the University to get find the donors.
We won't be able to find a lead donor to write a single check most likely. We don't have any one athlete to write a huge check to the University. It will take alumni who were not athletes to donate as well. I don't think get donors would be unattainable goal if Heckler actively pursued it. Just doesn't seem willing to do it or has other priorities at the moment. I'd just like to see some future goal. Yes it is one thing to blueprints and have a "master-plan" to tell fans about but there just doesn't seem to be the will to find the donors for that specific project.
How would everyone feel about adding Omaha and Denver to the Horizon League? Apparently LeCrone covets those schools and are targeting them. They are not bad basketball mids but are not great or anything...
I just don't like the fit. Huge Travel costs and also would be dividing up the revenue even more for schools that really don't add that much, imo.
If the Horizon makes that move then I feel it become much easier for Valpo to leave the Conference and move to the MVC if we get an invite.
If Valpo switched, are Valley games put on ESPN3? That's what is most important to me ;D
what? Denver has been great in hockey and has a decent following in that sport, more so than basketball.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 04, 2017, 01:25:51 PMHow would everyone feel about adding Omaha and Denver to the Horizon League? Apparently LeCrone covets those schools and are targeting them. They are not bad basketball mids but are not great or anything... I just don't like the fit. Huge Travel costs and also would be dividing up the revenue even more for schools that really don't add that much, imo. If the Horizon makes that move then I feel it become much easier for Valpo to leave the Conference and move to the MVC if we get an invite.
Again sounds like HL trying to be summit league 2.0
Aside from Valpo and Youngstown, all HL schools are in large cities with airports. Travel would not be as hectic but much more expensive. I would hate how spread out the conference would be.
Quote from: M on April 04, 2017, 01:30:58 PM
If Valpo switched, are Valley games put on ESPN3? That's what is most important to me ;D
Sure and much more! I just looked at Illinois State and found that last year they had 10 games on ESPN3 but also 5 games on ESPN2, 2 on ESPNU, 8 games on FOX Sports Midwest, 1 on ESPN and their title game on CBS! I think Valpo has played on CBS once, and that was the Sweet Sixteen game as I recall.
Obviously if we end up in The Valley and become one of their better teams, we will get much more TV exposure than we are getting in the Horizon.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 04, 2017, 12:43:22 PMWe won't be able to find a lead donor to write a single check most likely. We don't have any one athlete to write a huge check to the University. It will take alumni who were not athletes to donate as well. I don't think get donors would be unattainable goal if Heckler actively pursued it. Just doesn't seem willing to do it or has other priorities at the moment. I'd just like to see some future goal. Yes it is one thing to blueprints and have a "master-plan" to tell fans about but there just doesn't seem to be the will to find the donors for that specific project.
[/b]
Don't agree. Clearly the need for endowment growth is vitally important--just ask St. Joes. Athletics are a part of the campaign. What project completed under President Heckler should have been skipped in favor of building the REC Center? Beacon Hall? Th New Arts and Sciences building? The new 55,000 sq foot Chemistry/Biology building? Money has been spent on Athletics and no doubt big money as recently as 2014 when we completed the acquisition of the hospital site. By the way, the announcement that I just read indicates that the parking garage would used to address parking issues for athletic events :( There have been sizable donors for athletics in the past. I'm guessing the FITT projects cost in the area of $10 million. Jay Christopher gave the final $1 million to complete the track. An anonymous donor gave $1 million for the FITT drive. Paul Shrage has given $2 million to endow basketball recruiting and was given as part of the current campaign as was Jay's gift.
Lastly I doubt the people working in athletic fund raising would take kindly to you comment concerning a lack of will.
John Kuka joined Valparaiso University as an associate director of athletics in February of 2013. Kuka is responsible for the advancement operations of the athletic department, including all major gift fundraising and oversight of the Crusader Fund. In his first three years at Valpo, he secured gifts to renovate the Kroencke Hall weight room, the football locker room and several other projects.
http://www.valpoathletics.com/athletics/staff/8481/katie-britton/#.WOP0GTsrLIU
It is an arms race to get and educate the finest students. The smaller the endowment the more "discounting" that goes on. Discounting is just what it seems. If a school doesn't have the endowment to supply funds for scholarships, the alternate needed to attract students is just to give them a discount. In the long run that can be a fatal issue as costs continue to rise.
The desire is there. The donors aren't, at least at this moment in time.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 04, 2017, 01:45:09 PM
what? Denver has been great in hockey and has a decent following in that sport, more so than basketball.
Just what we need to upgrade the HL D-I hockey program -- a proven national competitor. {Sorry, USC, jus couldn't help it ::) )
Quote from: vu72 on April 04, 2017, 02:39:54 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 04, 2017, 12:43:22 PMWe won't be able to find a lead donor to write a single check most likely. We don't have any one athlete to write a huge check to the University. It will take alumni who were not athletes to donate as well. I don't think get donors would be unattainable goal if Heckler actively pursued it. Just doesn't seem willing to do it or has other priorities at the moment. I'd just like to see some future goal. Yes it is one thing to blueprints and have a "master-plan" to tell fans about but there just doesn't seem to be the will to find the donors for that specific project.
[/b]
Don't agree. Clearly the need for endowment growth is vitally important--just ask St. Joes. Athletics are a part of the campaign. What project completed under President Heckler should have been skipped in favor of building the REC Center? Beacon Hall? Th New Arts and Sciences building? The new 55,000 sq foot Chemistry/Biology building? Money has been spent on Athletics and no doubt big money as recently as 2014 when we completed the acquisition of the hospital site. By the way, the announcement that I just read indicates that the parking garage would used to address parking issues for athletic events :( There have been sizable donors for athletics in the past. I'm guessing the FITT projects cost in the area of $10 million. Jay Christopher gave the final $1 million to complete the track. An anonymous donor gave $1 million for the FITT drive. Paul Shrage has given $2 million to endow basketball recruiting and was given as part of the current campaign as was Jay's gift.
Lastly I doubt the people working in athletic fund raising would take kindly to you comment concerning a lack of will.
John Kuka joined Valparaiso University as an associate director of athletics in February of 2013. Kuka is responsible for the advancement operations of the athletic department, including all major gift fundraising and oversight of the Crusader Fund. In his first three years at Valpo, he secured gifts to renovate the Kroencke Hall weight room, the football locker room and several other projects.
http://www.valpoathletics.com/athletics/staff/8481/katie-britton/#.WOP0GTsrLIU
It is an arms race to get and educate the finest students. The smaller the endowment the more "discounting" that goes on. Discounting is just what it seems. If a school doesn't have the endowment to supply funds for scholarships, the alternate needed to attract students is just to give them a discount. In the long run that can be a fatal issue as costs continue to rise.
The desire is there. The donors aren't, at least at this moment in time.
I've given credit to President Heckler for other projects around the campus. He has not been frugal. When President Heckler targets projects he wants to achieve, he has executed and accomplished those goals.
I'm not saying that there are not people actively looking but there is a difference between fundraisers making calls and President Heckler sitting down with the Board and saying ok we need this in x-amount of years and laying out a strategic plan. I don't really expect to tap into the endowment for a Rec Center or Renovations of a basketball arena. I'm just saying when President Heckler actively takes it upon himself to find donors for the project I'm pretty sure things will happen.
Academics always comes first and is/should be the priority, but Valpo Basketball is one of the best Marketing tools for your University.
In my time on campus I was very involved in Greek Life and I know for a fact that President Heckler was very very directly involved in making the sorority housing happen. Getting that sorority housing was more complex then many people realize because the politics involved with the national sororities being unwilling to pay for the housing and also the "brothel" law: there is actually a very common law in the Country that it is against the law for a certain amount of women to be living in the house, because they are worried about it becoming a brothel. There was a lot of logistics/time/lobbying/capital personally invested by President Heckler on that project. I do think that the housing helped campus atmosphere/environment (or at least I think so/I'm graduated now) but should that have been a priority over a student Rec Center/ARC Renovations that would have benefited the whole campus? I'm not sure. I'm not really here to debate that.
I'm just saying when President Heckler decides targets something it get done. I'm not arguing that he should drop everything to solely focus of a Rec Center or ARC Reno but I think we've discussed at nauseam could help lead to a better Basketball Product on the floor which is one of the greatest marketing/PR tools for the University. (Yes there is not a direct correlation of good facilities & teams but it should help if you hire the right people).
Fun Story about the track donation: Correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard the Track came by a Dad of a High School Track athlete that wanted to badly attend Valpo but Valpo didn't have a real track. The Dad was the one that actually reached out to Mr. Christopher and asked him to donate to the track and he did donate the track. I'm not sure if this was just a rumor but I've heard a few people tell me that story.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 04, 2017, 03:33:41 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 04, 2017, 02:39:54 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 04, 2017, 12:43:22 PMWe won't be able to find a lead donor to write a single check most likely. We don't have any one athlete to write a huge check to the University. It will take alumni who were not athletes to donate as well. I don't think get donors would be unattainable goal if Heckler actively pursued it. Just doesn't seem willing to do it or has other priorities at the moment. I'd just like to see some future goal. Yes it is one thing to blueprints and have a "master-plan" to tell fans about but there just doesn't seem to be the will to find the donors for that specific project.
[/b]
Don't agree. Clearly the need for endowment growth is vitally important--just ask St. Joes. Athletics are a part of the campaign. What project completed under President Heckler should have been skipped in favor of building the REC Center? Beacon Hall? Th New Arts and Sciences building? The new 55,000 sq foot Chemistry/Biology building? Money has been spent on Athletics and no doubt big money as recently as 2014 when we completed the acquisition of the hospital site. By the way, the announcement that I just read indicates that the parking garage would used to address parking issues for athletic events :( There have been sizable donors for athletics in the past. I'm guessing the FITT projects cost in the area of $10 million. Jay Christopher gave the final $1 million to complete the track. An anonymous donor gave $1 million for the FITT drive. Paul Shrage has given $2 million to endow basketball recruiting and was given as part of the current campaign as was Jay's gift.
Lastly I doubt the people working in athletic fund raising would take kindly to you comment concerning a lack of will.
John Kuka joined Valparaiso University as an associate director of athletics in February of 2013. Kuka is responsible for the advancement operations of the athletic department, including all major gift fundraising and oversight of the Crusader Fund. In his first three years at Valpo, he secured gifts to renovate the Kroencke Hall weight room, the football locker room and several other projects.
http://www.valpoathletics.com/athletics/staff/8481/katie-britton/#.WOP0GTsrLIU
It is an arms race to get and educate the finest students. The smaller the endowment the more "discounting" that goes on. Discounting is just what it seems. If a school doesn't have the endowment to supply funds for scholarships, the alternate needed to attract students is just to give them a discount. In the long run that can be a fatal issue as costs continue to rise.
The desire is there. The donors aren't, at least at this moment in time.
I've given credit to President Heckler for other projects around the campus. He has not been frugal. When President Heckler targets projects he wants to achieve, he has executed and accomplished those goals.
I'm not saying that there are not people actively looking but there is a difference between fundraisers making calls and President Heckler sitting down with the Board and saying ok we need this in x-amount of years and laying out a strategic plan. I don't really expect to tap into the endowment for a Rec Center or Renovations of a basketball arena. I'm just saying when President Heckler actively takes it upon himself to find donors for the project I'm pretty sure things will happen.
Academics always comes first and is/should be the priority, but Valpo Basketball is one of the best Marketing tools for your University.
In my time on campus I was very involved in Greek Life and I know for a fact that President Heckler was very very directly involved in making the sorority housing happen. Getting that sorority housing was more complex then many people realize because the politics involved with the national sororities being unwilling to pay for the housing and also the "brothel" law: there is actually a very common law in the Country that it is against the law for a certain amount of women to be living in the house, because they are worried about it becoming a brothel. There was a lot of logistics/time/lobbying/capital personally invested by President Heckler on that project. I do think that the housing helped campus atmosphere/environment (or at least I think so/I'm graduated now) but should that have been a priority over a student Rec Center/ARC Renovations that would have benefited the whole campus? I'm not sure. I'm not really here to debate that.
I'm just saying when President Heckler decides targets something it get done. I'm not arguing that he should drop everything to solely focus of a Rec Center or ARC Reno but I think we've discussed at nauseam could help lead to a better Basketball Product on the floor which is one of the greatest marketing/PR tools for the University. (Yes there is not a direct correlation of good facilities & teams but it should help if you hire the right people).
Fun Story about the track donation: Correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard the Track came by a Dad of a High School Track athlete that wanted to badly attend Valpo but Valpo didn't have a real track. The Dad was the one that actually reached out to Mr. Christopher and asked him to donate to the track and he did donate the track. I'm not sure if this was just a rumor but I've heard a few people tell me that story.
Man, the brothel myth never dies.
Found this on the Wichita State board:
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-to-hold-emergency-meeting-on-sunday-in-saint-louis/
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 04, 2017, 04:20:16 PM
Found this on the Wichita State board:
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-to-hold-emergency-meeting-on-sunday-in-saint-louis/
Interesting. When Creighton left 4 years ago the MVC should have suspected then that WSU would be next. But instead of finding a replacement with proven, sustained basketball success, their university presidents became mesmerized by "facilities" (which is their thing, after all) and the glitz and glitter of Chicago's skyline. Now they need to find a school with a strong bb program just to return to square-1. Then, they need to add 2 more schools with strong programs to help close the gap left by Creighton and Wichita State. Of course, this assumes that they've come to their senses, which one never knows when school administrators clearly out of their element function as an athletic association search committee.
In any event, the MVC's risk of falling into mid-major mediocrity should bode well for Valpo this time around.
One thing to consider with the MVC is that their CBS TV deal is up after the 2019-2020 season and they will not get the same amount of $ without Wichita State being in the Conf.
That is something that we all need to consider. MidMajor Conference won't be getting the big $ TV deals without real Mid-Major big boys like Wichita State, (formerly) Creighton, etc.
MidMajors are really getting squeezed with all this conference consolidation. The $ is getting bottle up at the top with the big P6-P7 conferences. The best thing for Valpo and many of the other decent Horizon, Summit, OVC, MVC programs would be to former a new Conference with the elites and some schools like Milwaukee and UIC for TV Market purposes. We'd have to hope Valpo's history/program success gets us a seat at the table of the new Conference.
There is no longer an obvious better option anymore. Moving the MVC may be good for the short-term but not a complete win like it would have been just a few years ago.
I'm sure my opinion won't be a popular one on this board, but my thought is why would Valpo even want to make the jump to the MVC without Creighton or Wichita State there? I know that the home game atmosphere would probably be slightly better, and the level of player that Valparaiso might attract would also probably be slightly better, but you're essentially trading one single-bid league for another. This isn't an argument of whether or not Valpo can be successful in the MVC, because I think they'd fare well in either league. I took a look at the average Pomeroy ratings for last 4 years of the teams who will be in the MVC once Wichita leaves vs. the Horizon League, and really other than this year in which the Horizon was historically bad, the two leagues aren't that far apart. Pomeroy ratings are a much better indicator of potential tournament success than a team's or league's RPI.
2017: MVC - 158.6, HL - 202.2
2016: MVC - 173, HL - 184
2015: MVC - 167, HL - 175.8
2014: MVC - 170, HL - 162.9
Obviously Valpo's going to be an attractive option to the MVC once they start looking again and Arch Madness looks far more fun than Motor City Madness (although it's tough to know what the crowds will be like without Wichita State), but the real money for both of these leagues is going to be in earning tournament shares, and outside of Wichita State, the MVC has two tournament wins in the last 4 years, both of which were by Northern Iowa, who's also rumored to be looking at other leagues to have their football program make the jump to the FBS. Now that is certainly better than the HL, but I'm not sure I'd put a much higher value on the MVC's future as a league than the Horizon's. Really depends if the thought is that this year is the new normal for the Horizon League in terms of its potential or if they'll trend back towards the MVC in the future.
Quote from: wh on April 05, 2017, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 04, 2017, 04:20:16 PM
Found this on the Wichita State board:
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-to-hold-emergency-meeting-on-sunday-in-saint-louis/
Interesting. When Creighton left 4 years ago the MVC should have suspected then that WSU would be next. But instead of finding a replacement with proven, sustained basketball success, their university presidents became mesmerized by "facilities" (which is their thing, after all) and the glitz and glitter of Chicago's skyline. Now they need to find a school with a strong bb program just to return to square-1. Then, they need to add 2 more schools with strong programs to help close the gap left by Creighton and Wichita State. Of course, this assumes that they've come to their senses, which one never knows when school administrators clearly out of their element function as an athletic association search committee.
In any event, the MVC's risk of falling into mid-major mediocrity should bode well for Valpo this time around.
WH, you imply an interesting "what if."
What if......... four years ago, the MVC took Valpo instead of Loyola?
What would the Mid-major MBB landscape look like over those 4 years and now? Maybe to wit, the MVC RPI and ranking increases across the board, the MVC is a shoe-in at large conference, yada, yada.
Would that landscape have been enough to convince WSU to remain in the MVC?
It doesn't do Valpo or the MVC any good now, but inquiring minds want to know ::) .
Paul put up a poll on his Twitter page 25 minutes ago and got 56 votes right away. 65%-35% split for the MVC.
[tweet]849667283077263360[/tweet]
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 05, 2017, 12:15:44 PM
Quote from: wh on April 05, 2017, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 04, 2017, 04:20:16 PM
Found this on the Wichita State board:
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-to-hold-emergency-meeting-on-sunday-in-saint-louis/
Interesting. When Creighton left 4 years ago the MVC should have suspected then that WSU would be next. But instead of finding a replacement with proven, sustained basketball success, their university presidents became mesmerized by "facilities" (which is their thing, after all) and the glitz and glitter of Chicago's skyline. Now they need to find a school with a strong bb program just to return to square-1. Then, they need to add 2 more schools with strong programs to help close the gap left by Creighton and Wichita State. Of course, this assumes that they've come to their senses, which one never knows when school administrators clearly out of their element function as an athletic association search committee.
In any event, the MVC's risk of falling into mid-major mediocrity should bode well for Valpo this time around.
WH, you imply an interesting "what if." What if......... four years ago, the MVC took Valpo instead of Loyola?
What would the Mid-major MBB landscape look like over those 4 years and now? Maybe to wit, the MVC RPI and ranking increases across the board, the MVC is a shoe-in at large conference, yada, yada.
Would that landscape have been enough to convince WSU to remain in the MVC?
It doesn't do Valpo or the MVC any good now, but inquiring minds want to know ::) .
Wichita State would be leaving regardless if Valpo joined the MVC instead of Loyola. Wichita St wanted out before Creighton even left. It just enhanced once Creighton left.
Both the MVC and the HL are one-bid leagues. Both conferences have schools are just waiting to jump at the next best conference that considers them. The MVC has FCS football schools in UNI/IL St that would jump at the chance to get into an FBS football conference. Those are the 2 schools that are the "Top" basketball programs in the conference.
The ONLY obvious move for Valpo would be to the A10 but thats not going to happen. We really need a new Conference in the Midwest. There are too many bottom feeders and schools not carrying their own weight in the MVC, HL, Summit, and OVC.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 05, 2017, 12:23:05 PM
Paul put up a poll on his Twitter page 25 minutes ago and got 56 votes right away. 65%-35% split for the MVC.
[tweet]849667283077263360[/tweet]
This link constantly refreshes so after just 35 minutes it is up to 77 votes and the split is 66-34 down from a 68-32 a couple of minutes ago. But 77 votes in only 33 minutes shows a lot of interest.
UPDATE at 1 hour: 116 votes and a 69%/31% split
The MVC as a better chance of getting multiple bids than the HL. If there are many conference affiliation changes, I think the Summit League will be decimated.
Quote from: valpo64 on April 05, 2017, 12:59:09 PM
The MVC as a better chance of getting multiple bids than the HL. If there are many conference affiliation changes, I think the Summit League will be decimated.
The MVC with the 9 that are in there right now is pretty securely a 1-bid league especially with the recent history of how the Selection Committee picks teams and completely screws Mid-Majors.
It would have to be a pretty good year for 2 bids. Illinois St couldn't even get a bid in a league with Wichita St in it and had an incredibly strong year and good team. I do think we are a better match with the schools in the MVC but its not the end all be all anymore.
Quote from: valpo64 on April 05, 2017, 12:59:09 PMdecimated
I think the current summit league has never been stronger.
With all due respect, a move to the MVC is a no-brainer if the opportunity presents itself. It's a better-run conference than the HL, with better leadership, with much better fan support, a better TV deal, better in-state rivalries, better tradition and is better positioned for long-term success and is far more likely to land multiple bids than the HL will ever be, namely because they incentivize teams not being RPI drags for years on end. This was one of the worst years in recent memory for the MVC and it's still ranked higher despite Drake being a sub-300 team. It's just a stronger league across the board, even without Wichita. Don't overthink this.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 05, 2017, 01:33:00 PM
With all due respect, a move to the MVC is a no-brainer if the opportunity presents itself. It's a better-run conference than the HL, with better leadership, with much better fan support, a better TV deal, better in-state rivalries, better tradition and is better positioned for long-term success and is far more likely to land multiple bids than the HL will ever be, namely because they incentivize teams not being RPI drags for years on end. This was one of the worst years in recent memory for the MVC and it's still ranked higher despite Drake being a sub-300 team. It's just a stronger league across the board, even without Wichita. Don't overthink this.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for going to the MVC but I'm just saying if we make that leap then the MVC may look different 5-10 years from now.
A lot of factors in play. I do think it would be the right move.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 05, 2017, 01:57:52 PMQuote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 05, 2017, 01:33:00 PMWith all due respect, a move to the MVC is a no-brainer if the opportunity presents itself. It's a better-run conference than the HL, with better leadership, with much better fan support, a better TV deal, better in-state rivalries, better tradition and is better positioned for long-term success and is far more likely to land multiple bids than the HL will ever be, namely because they incentivize teams not being RPI drags for years on end. This was one of the worst years in recent memory for the MVC and it's still ranked higher despite Drake being a sub-300 team. It's just a stronger league across the board, even without Wichita. Don't overthink this.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for going to the MVC but I'm just saying if we make that leap then the Conf may look different 5-10 years from now. A lot of factors in play.
We made the jump to the HL. After 7 years it was not the same. Actually, just not even similar except for the name....
Again, from the WSU board:
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/04/05/wichita-state-american-athletic-conference-aac-vote?xid=socialflow_twitter_si
AAC to formally vote for WSU admission later this week.
Just for reference, here are the 11 AAC schools. Navy is a football only member. WSU would be the only non-football member (but there were rumblings that they might start their football program up again).
2016-17 Men's Basketball Standings
SCHOOL CONF OVERALL
SMU 17-1 30-5
Cincinnati 16-2 30-6
Houston 12-6 21-11
UCF 11-7 24-12
Memphis 9-9 19-13
UConn 9-9 16-17
Tulsa 8-10 15-17
Temple 7-11 16-16
East Carolina 6-12 15-18
Tulane 3-15 6-25
USF 1-17 7-23
The MVC has bigger budgets, and contrary to the belief that the Valpo administration hates athletics, we'd be right in the middle in terms of expenditures.
I'm not a big "we need to be in a league with more private schools" guy, but I don't think the large state colleges in the Horizon are going to pump more money into athletics. The private schools in the MVC already have good budgets - they just suck at hiring coaches.
The MVC has been a better league, and still has more promise due to the larger budgets.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 05, 2017, 01:09:54 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on April 05, 2017, 12:59:09 PM
The MVC as a better chance of getting multiple bids than the HL. If there are many conference affiliation changes, I think the Summit League will be decimated.
The MVC with the 9 that are in there right now is pretty securely a 1-bid league especially with the recent history of how the Selection Committee picks teams and completely screws Mid-Majors.
It would have to be a pretty good year for 2 bids. Illinois St couldn't even get a bid in a league with Wichita St in it and had an incredibly strong year and good team. I do think we are a better match with the schools in the MVC but its not the end all be all anymore.
They were at least in the conversation, despite having a poor non-conference resume. Valpo ran through the league in 2015, had way better wins out of conference, and were still out. Valpo was unable to get that eye-popping RPI necessary for a mid-major at-large.
The Horizon has been below .500 vs D1 teams for 4 straight years now. Sans-Valpo, what passes for "great" is an above 100 RPI team that has like 1 conf tournament win since joining the league.
I think its more of a "what will the mvc become" than a "what about the horizon league."
I think the HL is a known commodity. It is what it is. The MVC is totally up in the air. High risk high reward. Should Valpo continue to try and be successful until a better option than the MVC comes along? I guess for me it boils down to what else the MVC does....does it add one member to replace WSU or three? If one, ill pass. If three, lets dance.
The Summit League may be good right now, but IF and when the IPFW thing finalizes and they leave and downsize their affiliation, and IF other schools change conference affiliations, the Summit will be in a world of hurt.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 05, 2017, 07:36:35 PM
I think its more of a "what will the mvc become" than a "what about the horizon league."
I think the HL is a known commodity. It is what it is. The MVC is totally up in the air. High risk high reward. Should Valpo continue to try and be successful until a better option than the MVC comes along? I guess for me it boils down to what else the MVC does....does it add one member to replace WSU or three? If one, ill pass. If three, lets dance.
I'd say the MVC is actually a much safer conference then the Horizon League. Yes teams like IL St and UNI may jump ship one day but there doesn't seem to be a viable option for them right now to jump to. I don't see the A10 picking them up and I don't see an FBS football conference eager to grab them either at this point. Even then it would be a tricky leap for them.
I just feel like there will be less peaks and valleys with the MVC in terms of league competitiveness, compared to the Horizon. I the Horizon I feel like there are a lot of good coaches at schools and the schools that are mid pack (not exact good yet) are trending up, BUT if those schools were to lose those coaches it could really hurt the program.
I just see more school in the MVC being a match with Valpo and having consistent funding support. Also it would be nice to see old rivalries with Indiana St and E-Ville. I've never experienced those rivalries because I'm a little bit younger of an alumni but I can imagine having 2 in-state rivals would be good for us and them. Also the match-ups of teams in the MVC would be much more interesting draws to the ARC in general in conference play.
The MVC may be a solid 1-bid league after WSU but like others have said it has more of a chance to be 2 bid league in the good years for the conference especially if it adds a team like Valpo or goes 3 teams (& adds other strong BBall programs with some history/tradition).
The MVC may not be what it use to be but it still looks to be the best fit for us at this time. Although I still say a new Midwest MidMajor Conference should be formed and may actually happen when the TV deals come up.
Quote from: M on April 04, 2017, 01:30:58 PM
If Valpo switched, are Valley games put on ESPN3? That's what is most important to me ;D
4/07 7:00 PM EDT Indiana State vs. Evansville (Baseball) ESPN 3Their baseball is on ESPN 3 for sure.
What is so great about the Summit league? Seriously?
The 3 Dakota schools are being joined by the University of North Dakota. They have leapfrogged the HL in regards to conference RPI because of those schools, and it will continue with UND.
The MVC is a no-brainer. We get 4 other private schools, and if a Belmont or Detroit joins with us, we are set long-term for any other conference instability. Being tied to other private schools can only help us, as long as they don't go to back-to-back NCAA championship games ;).
Quote from: valpotx on April 05, 2017, 09:12:43 PM
The 3 Dakota schools are being joined by the University of North Dakota. They have leapfrogged the HL in regards to conference RPI because of those schools, and it will continue with UND.
The MVC is a no-brainer. We get 4 other private schools, and if a Belmont or Detroit joins with us, we are set long-term for any other conference instability. Being tied to other private schools can only help us, as long as they don't go to back-to-back NCAA championship games ;).
The Summit did not leapfrog the Horizon in RPI. The Horizon finished with a better RPI last year. The Summit doesn't have the budget to retain coaches, and hasn't had a team anywhere close to at-large level. South Dakota State, their most consistent team, lost their coach to a Horizon League school. They lost their best PROGRAM to the Horizon League.
In response to the TV question, (I was curious too) the MVC also has a deal with ESPN for ESPN3 broadcasts through 2025. And for Arch Madness semis and finals to be carried by CBS through 2021.
The Summit finished at #17, while the HL was #19 this season.
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 05, 2017, 12:11:56 PMI'm sure my opinion won't be a popular one on this board, but my thought is why would Valpo even want to make the jump to the MVC without Creighton or Wichita State there?
Yes. Why? We joined the HL to be in a multi bid league then it disappeared. Even if NIU and ISU stay (a bet I wouldn't take) this new MVC (with VU) might only be multi bid maybe 1 year out of 4 or 5 and perhaps even less.
So what are the alternatives? Well, there are no simple answers. With no simple answers let me reintroduce a concept that I've floated before that nobody seemed to know how to answer or address.
For simplicity lets imagine a 14 team combination of whatever teams from whatever conferences dedicated toward elevated strength of schedule (SOS) and elevating RPIs. Each summer (prior to scheduling) conference divisions are determined by all known team factors with the objective of selecting the 7 best teams for the top division and the 7 weakest for the also rans. Top division teams would play each other home and away (12 game) and play the others only once for 19 conference games. Same for lower division. So a decent 14 team league might always have 7 projected Top 110 RPI teams in its top division every year. That would be 12 conference games against quality opponents with a minimum of RPI dilution coming from the conference bottom feeders.
Why couldn't something like that be tried? I floated something similar to this (12 team) some time in the past and do not remember any answers which totally shot it down. Sure. Lots of details to fill in but assuming 2 or 3 near at-large quality teams each year what would be the results?
This article is from a few days ago, but I don't think I recall seeing it posted yet. It focuses on primary candidates to move to the MVC with a heavy Valpo mention.
Conference realignment: What should the MVC do if (when) Wichita State leaves?
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/29/15080936/conference-realignment-what-should-the-mvc-do-if-when-wichita-state-leaves-expansion-valley-shockers
Quote from: justducky on April 06, 2017, 01:14:28 AM
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 05, 2017, 12:11:56 PMI'm sure my opinion won't be a popular one on this board, but my thought is why would Valpo even want to make the jump to the MVC without Creighton or Wichita State there?
Yes. Why? We joined the HL to be in a multi bid league then it disappeared. Even if NIU and ISU stay (a bet I wouldn't take) this new MVC (with VU) might only be multi bid maybe 1 year out of 4 or 5 and perhaps even less.
So what are the alternatives? Well, there are no simple answers. With no simple answers let me reintroduce a concept that I've floated before that nobody seemed to know how to answer or address.
For simplicity lets imagine a 14 team combination of whatever teams from whatever conferences dedicated toward elevated strength of schedule (SOS) and elevating RPIs. Each summer (prior to scheduling) conference divisions are determined by all known team factors with the objective of selecting the 7 best teams for the top division and the 7 weakest for the also rans. Top division teams would play each other home and away (12 game) and play the others only once for 19 conference games. Same for lower division. So a decent 14 team league might always have 7 projected Top 110 RPI teams in its top division every year. That would be 12 conference games against quality opponents with a minimum of RPI dilution coming from the conference bottom feeders.
Why couldn't something like that be tried? I floated something similar to this (12 team) some time in the past and do not remember any answers which totally shot it down. Sure. Lots of details to fill in but assuming 2 or 3 near at-large quality teams each year what would be the results?
It's a very interesting concept and I could see this "Premier League (soccer)" style system keeping the heat on programs to invest and not get relegated to the tier (2) position.
Guess I am just a realist...this NCAA March Madness environment today doesn't reward this type of free market genius. It may generate a (2) bid league but (3) or (4) bids are very hard to imagine any school with smaller alumni bases achieving.
So I think it's a fun idea, and I know it has proven great for the English Premier League by keeping bottom dwellers invested.
Short of a Mid Major only tournament I think we need to expect to win our conference every year for the bid.
The sad part is that for a majority of March Madness fans, the underdog against the blue blood is the real viewership draw. The NCAA has us by the short hairs though because we need the P6 to draw the viewership for the DAVID v Goliath concept that so endears us. A Mid Major only tournament puts little pressure on the NCAA committee to reform their money 💰 producing ways.
that is one data point. Also compare the Summit to the MVC.
Quote from: valpotx on April 06, 2017, 12:15:04 AM
The Summit finished at #17, while the HL was #19 this season.
http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html
The only question we have to ask ourselves: Which league has the brighter future?
The HL has 2 schools (CSU/YSU) that simply are never going to amount to anything ever again. However, Oakland/UIC/NKU/GB are either consistently decent or are currently on the rise and WSU/Detroit/Milwaukee have potential to be good in the future as they have been good in the past.
The MVC has 1 school who is consistently really good (UNI) and 1 school who is usually really good (ILLSt). Schools like MissSt/Loyola/IndSt./Evansville/Bradley/Drake/SouthIll.) all have potential as they have had some really good teams in the past. Evansville was really good 2 years ago. Ind.State about 4 years ago. Bradley about 10 years ago. SouthIll. had about a 5 year run of dominance in the early 200's and Valpo played MssSt in the bracketbuster a few years ago.
My Conclusion:
The MVC has more teams that are consistently good, have been historically good, or have the ability to be good again. It has better leadership. It has a better brand. It has a better conference tournament. At least in the short run it has a better TV contract. UNI might want to leave for football reasons, but what conference would take them that wouldn't hurt their basketball RPI year in year out? Lets say UNI and Missouri state do leave. You know one of the following: Oakland/Detroit/UIC/Milwaukee etc. would still want to join the MVC.
Seems like a no-brainer. The only reason I wouldn't want to go is that I don't want to see Oakland making the NCAA tournament every year out of the HL. I fear if we leave they won't have anybody to challenge them and since I see them as a rival, I don't like that. haha
I also think the decision to move to the MVC should not be based solely on the potential of the conference getting multiple bid to the Mens NCAA tournament.
Also, regarding Valpo, I can only think of one year (2015-2016) where they got the wrong end of getting a bid to the tournament, possibly because of the disrespect of the Horizon conference.
Overall, the MVC would be a better fit for Valpo. I like the rivalry feel with Loyola, Indiana State, Illinois State, Bradley and Evansville. Also, note that the Horizon commissioner is incompetent.
An update with 2 hours left on the Paul Poll on joining MVC.
[tweet]849667283077263360[/tweet]
235 votes and a 66%-34% split for MVC
This article outlines the move I think would be best for the MVC despite complications mentioned. Adding Valpo and two other teams from the list below (most likely not the Dakota teams), plus shifting to a two-division format with first-round tournament games on campus sites and byes to protect the highest seeds at Arch Madness. Makes so much sense it probably doesn't have a chance!
A number of potential new members have been mentioned in published reports and by sources. They include Belmont, Illinois-Chicago, Valparaiso, Nebraska-Omaha, UMKC and the four primary North and South Dakota state schools, which are currently members for football only.
There appears to be some support within the league for expanding to 12 schools and splitting the league into two divisions. Under that scenario in basketball, division members would play each other twice and the other division members once, reducing conference games to 16 from the current 18.
Such a setup would no longer allow for a true regular-season champion to be crowned as well as make the difficult task of scheduling nonconference games even tougher. It would also render the MVC tournament unwieldy by creating probable campus site games and more byes for the higher seeds.
http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20170405/reynolds-wichita-state-may-leave-valley-as-early-as-friday (http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20170405/reynolds-wichita-state-may-leave-valley-as-early-as-friday)
[tweet]849994565683728384[/tweet]
I found the following on twitter
Last 5 year RPI averages
Valpo-84
Green Bay-110
Oakland-142
Murray St-145
Wright St-163
Milwaukee-216
If the MVC wants to have better basketball, easy choice is Valpo.
What if...... (again)
We consistently say that the failure of good mid-majors to schedule other good mid-majors during the OOC season is one issue that has held teams like Valpo back. We also acknowledge that P5/6 teams don't want to play mid-majors, especially good ones, that much.
Should the MVC extend a bid to Valpo, there might be an exit fee if we accept, no? WHAT IF...... in exchange for either a reduced exit fee or even a waived fee, that over the next, say, 4-5 seasons, Valpo agrees to schedule 4 games (2 home, 2 away) with the top 4 RPI HL teams from the season before? That would guarantee at least 4 competitive games in OOC play plus whatever else we can scrape together. And being in the MVC, maybe we are in a better position to attract those other higher quality opponents.
It's kind of putting our money where our mouth is. No one could accuse us of hypocrisy either. Valpo would gain, but the HL leaders would also benefit from the VU RPI.
BTW it doesn't have to be 4 , it could be 2 or 3 (this edit was prompted by Mick's list below)
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 06, 2017, 10:11:32 AM
What if...... (again)
We consistently say that the failure of good mid-majors to schedule other good mid-majors during the OOC season is one issue that has held teams like Valpo back. We also acknowledge that P5/6 teams don't want to play mid-majors, especially good ones, that much.
Should the MVC extend a bid to Valpo, there might be an exit fee if we accept, no? WHAT IF...... in exchange for either a reduced exit fee or even a waived fee, that over the next, say, 4-5 seasons, Valpo agrees to schedule 4 games (2 home, 2 away) with the top 4 RPI HL teams from the season before? That would guarantee at least 4 competitive games in OOC play plus whatever else we can scrape together. And being in the MVC, maybe we are in a better position to attract those other higher quality opponents.
It's kind of putting our money where our mouth is. No one could accuse us of hypocrisy either. Valpo would gain, but the HL leaders would also benefit from the VU RPI.
BTW it doesn't have to be 4 , it could be 2 or 3 (this edit was prompted by Mick's list below)
An interesting idea. May be logistically tough to accomplish and make all parties happy. Some teams in the Horizon League may prefer the exist fee instead scheduling the top teams. How much is the exit fee?
Quote from: VU2014 on April 06, 2017, 10:24:40 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 06, 2017, 10:11:32 AM
What if...... (again)
We consistently say that the failure of good mid-majors to schedule other good mid-majors during the OOC season is one issue that has held teams like Valpo back. We also acknowledge that P5/6 teams don't want to play mid-majors, especially good ones, that much.
Should the MVC extend a bid to Valpo, there might be an exit fee if we accept, no? WHAT IF...... in exchange for either a reduced exit fee or even a waived fee, that over the next, say, 4-5 seasons, Valpo agrees to schedule 4 games (2 home, 2 away) with the top 4 RPI HL teams from the season before? That would guarantee at least 4 competitive games in OOC play plus whatever else we can scrape together. And being in the MVC, maybe we are in a better position to attract those other higher quality opponents.
It's kind of putting our money where our mouth is. No one could accuse us of hypocrisy either. Valpo would gain, but the HL leaders would also benefit from the VU RPI.
BTW it doesn't have to be 4 , it could be 2 or 3 (this edit was prompted by Mick's list below)
An interesting idea. May be logistically tough to accomplish and make all parties happy. Some teams in the Horizon League may prefer the exist fee instead scheduling the top teams. How much is the exit fee?
Are we sure there is an exit fee in the Horizon League? Wichita State has no exit fee for leaving the Missouri Valley.
Since WSU has been in the MVC for decades, they are most likely "grandfathered" into a status where they are not subject to an exit fee. I would expect more recent additions like Loyola and future members would have to pay a hefty fee if they leave the conference. Sometimes those fees are tiered based on how quickly the school leaves, e.g., $2 million if departing in less than a year, $1 million if giving at least a year notice. I would expect this applies to Valpo if they leave the Horizon.
Quote from: Rogobob77 on April 06, 2017, 10:43:38 AM
Since WSU has been in the MVC for decades, they are most likely "grandfathered" into a status where they are not subject to an exit fee. I would expect more recent additions like Loyola and future members would have to pay a hefty fee if they leave the conference. Sometimes those fees are tiered based on how quickly the school leaves, e.g., $2 million if departing in less than a year, $1 million if giving at least a year notice. I would expect this applies to Valpo if they leave the Horizon.
When Creighton left the MVC in 2013, Wichita State opposed institution of an exit fee proposed by the league.
Quote from: valpopal on April 06, 2017, 10:49:42 AM
Quote from: Rogobob77 on April 06, 2017, 10:43:38 AM
Since WSU has been in the MVC for decades, they are most likely "grandfathered" into a status where they are not subject to an exit fee. I would expect more recent additions like Loyola and future members would have to pay a hefty fee if they leave the conference. Sometimes those fees are tiered based on how quickly the school leaves, e.g., $2 million if departing in less than a year, $1 million if giving at least a year notice. I would expect this applies to Valpo if they leave the Horizon.
When Creighton left the MVC in 2013, Wichita State opposed institution of an exit fee proposed by the league.
Why would Wichita State do that? ;)
https://twitter.com/ECP_Allar/status/849710384940494848
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/850016299476553728
Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up. Some think we shouldn't bother adding anyone this year, and set up for a bigger expansion next year. I don't think that bodes well, especially if your Horizon is trying to also gear up for an expansion.
You would be hard pressed to argue that moving to the MVC isn't a significant step up. Money, exposure, atmosphere, and competition are all pluses. I do have to agree that multi bid chances take a major blow without WSU, which is not to say it won't be possible. Our team is reloading, but Ben Jacobsen has proved over and over he can produce an at large caliber team. I don't think it's a stretch to say Illinois State could do the same. Most of the rest of the valley have tasted success and have the resources to be strong teams. That doesn't necessarily mean a lot, but at least they put basketball in the driver seat of their athletics. As far as UNI and ISUr jumping ship to go to fbs football, I don't think that is realistic right now. However, if the valley really screws up in filling WSU's void, we might push for a change, but resource wise, it would still be a stretch.
On another note, there are some concerns in the idea of taking you guys in. Fresh off the loss of Bryce Drew, it seems a bit up in the air as far as future success is concerned. Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym, that seemed to struggle with attendance last season. Loyola left a bad taste in people's mouth with their gym and pitiful attendance. Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on those things, because its not always how it appears, and I don't doubt that you all are capable of continuing success.
I think part of our attendance issue was that we seemed to have quite a few games when students were on break. I also think that the casual fan is tired and not excited to take in a game where Valpo is going to win by 20 points against the YSU, CSU, UIC, Milwaukee...I think the casual fan is tired of seeing the same crum bum teams walk into and limp out of the ARC.
As far as continued success....next year may the team might take a small step back but it should just be temporary.
Welcome to the board UNIfan. Nice to have a MVC fan join us. Thanks for the positives on our possible candidacy for an invite. I hope that the MVC doesn't delay inviting anyone, whether it be VU or someone else. Your point is well taken -- timing is crucial. You also mentioned a couple of drawbacks.
The loss of the Drew fingerprint on VUMBB is a reality; however, we have great confidence in Matt Lottich. We got absolutely whacked by circumstances out of our control (actually more in the NCAA's i.e., rejecting our point guards' appeal for a 4th season and the incredulous finding on an academic issue that ended our HL 6th man honoree's season while UNC goes onto win a championship while a decade of academic fraud is being "investigated") this year and a season-ending injury to Alec Peters, the HL POY, at the end of the season. Despite all that adversity in his first year as our coach, he did an incredible job of holding the team together, keeping them focused and coming up with 24 wins. We also were pretty competitive against the likes of Oregon and beat BYU and URI. Matt is smart and a great representative of the university and college BB. He'll be well respected in the MVC.
The ARC is what it is. It has a capacity of 5,000 and last year when we went to the NIT finals, beating St. Mary's and Florida State in the ARC, it was rockin. Go back to some YouTubes of, for instance, the last HL campus site championship at the ARC -- full and rockin. Part of any drop in season average over the last couple of years might be attributable to a steady decline in HL competitiveness. As regards Loyola by comparison when they were in the HL, their attendance was miserable over a long stretch before that even for the HL -- a pretty good indication that, unfortunately, was missed. And in its present configuration, though sexier, the Gentile Center holds fewer fans for games than the ARC. With the added competitiveness of MVC foes and the renewal of old rivalries with Evansville and Indiana State and well as bringing Bradley into the ARC regularly attendance should be nicely bolstered.
There are other posters on the board who, I'm sure, can be even more specific about our credentials.
Forgive my ignorance, but has it been established on here that the Missouri Valley Football Conference (MVFC) and Missouri Valley [everything else, including basketball] Conference (MVC) are effectively two separate entities? They share an office, but beyond that they have separate league officials, finances, policies, etc. Point being, it's not really a credit in favor of North Dakota State and South Dakota State that they're "already" in the MVFC when the MVFC and the MVC are two different things.
UNIfan - welcome! M and 62 made great points that I will not repeat. The one issue about Valparaiso that seems to be unique among most any D1 higher midwestern mid-majors is that it is a smaller school in an area with less population than most midwestern mid-majors. It would stand out in that regard from other MVC schools. That said, the fan base is loyal and knowledgeable. The fans will travel to support the team. The students, in my opinion, get strongly engaged when the opponent is good (look at the Valpo - Saint Mary's game from last year on Youtube).
Assuming the MVC is interested in Valpo, this is a no brainer for Valpo. In basketball, look at the bottom five teams in each league. Replace YSU, UIC, Milwaukee (who will improve soon), Cleveland State and Detroit with Drake, SIU, Indiana State, Bradley and Evansville? That is a huge improvement. Beyond basketball, the MVC is equal to or better than the Horizon in most (if not all) sports. You have more good academic schools in the MVC that are consistent with the standard at Valpo. I have long argued that excessive spending on facilities is extremely wasteful given other needs, but the return associated with this move would seem to dictate an openness towards more rapidly improving some facilities (example: ARC renovation).
Quote from: hailcrusaders on April 06, 2017, 02:27:27 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but has it been established on here that the Missouri Valley Football Conference (MVFC) and Missouri Valley [everything else, including basketball] Conference (MVC) are effectively two separate entities? They share an office, but beyond that they have separate league officials, finances, policies, etc. Point being, it's not really a credit in favor of North Dakota State and South Dakota State that they're "already" in the MVFC when the MVFC and the MVC are two different things.
Yes and no...MVC used to sponsor football until the mid 80s and then "dropped" it. Most of the schools stayed the same, but became the Gateway Conference...later, they changed their name to the MVFC. The two, MVC and MVFC share the same offices, but administer separately...different commissioners, etc...sooooooo...while they operate separately, the MVFC is still, more or less, the same as they were...with some additional members.
QuoteOthers feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym
Plenty of us aren't happy with it either and are pushing for a renovated or new facility. M's point about an inordinate number of home games occurring when students were out on break is correct -- including our biggest conference rivalry game (thanks, HL!). Also, we only had one Saturday home game this year when the students were on campus, as well. Look at our NIT games from last year to see a better example of how VU is capable of drawing.
Attendance would almost certainly increase in the MVC. I think there was also a drop-off this year as some of our casual fans realized that the HL season doesn't matter -- only the three games in Detroit. That would change in the MVC where at-large bids are more realistic.
Quote from: valpotx on April 05, 2017, 09:12:43 PMThe 3 Dakota schools are being joined by the University of North Dakota. They have leapfrogged the HL in regards to conference RPI because of those schools, and it will continue with UND. The MVC is a no-brainer. We get 4 other private schools, and if a Belmont or Detroit joins with us, we are set long-term for any other conference instability. Being tied to other private schools can only help us, as long as they don't go to back-to-back NCAA championship games ;) .
I'd still take the Horizon over the Summit, even this last year. The best thing about the Summit is that their worst teams aren't as bad as the HL's worst teams. South Dakota won the Summit with 12 overall losses, including losses to bad teams in UMKC, ORU, and twice losing to .500 SDSU team. NDSU finished 2nd in the league, losing 11 games, albeit with a tougher schedule. North Dakota is currently in the Big Sky, and not moving to the Summit for a few seasons yet. I saw them in person on several occasions -- they had the best team in school history this year, but barely won a mediocre conference. The program is on the upswing, but their star player graduates and they've still got a lot of work to do to take the program to the next level.
The Summit had two postseason bids this year -- USD (NIT) and SDSU (NCAA 16-seed). If you include UND (NCAA 15-seed), that'd be three, but no way UND is at-large worthy (or even NIT-worthy really), so only one of them would've made the NCAA. All three of them (USD, SDSU, and UND) went one-and-done. Play Oakland and a healthy Valpo once each on neutral court against USD, NDSU, and UND, I bet the Horizon goes 5-1.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 06, 2017, 01:08:05 PM
Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up.
And all of this speculation kind of sidesteps two important factors: (1) The MVC leadership has to vote to extend an invite to Valpo; and (2) if invited, (this is the scary one) the Valpo leadership i.e., the President and the Board of Trustees, has to want to join and will be willing to meet any stated acceptance criteria.
But I can't help but believe that prior to taking a formal vote, the MVC will have received a commitment beforehand. No one wants egg on their faces in a public setting like this.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 06, 2017, 01:08:05 PM
Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up. Some think we shouldn't bother adding anyone this year, and set up for a bigger expansion next year. I don't think that bodes well, especially if your Horizon is trying to also gear up for an expansion.
You would be hard pressed to argue that moving to the MVC isn't a significant step up. Money, exposure, atmosphere, and competition are all pluses. I do have to agree that multi bid chances take a major blow without WSU, which is not to say it won't be possible. Our team is reloading, but Ben Jacobsen has proved over and over he can produce an at large caliber team. I don't think it's a stretch to say Illinois State could do the same. Most of the rest of the valley have tasted success and have the resources to be strong teams. That doesn't necessarily mean a lot, but at least they put basketball in the driver seat of their athletics. As far as UNI and ISUr jumping ship to go to fbs football, I don't think that is realistic right now. However, if the valley really screws up in filling WSU's void, we might push for a change, but resource wise, it would still be a stretch.
On another note, there are some concerns in the idea of taking you guys in. Fresh off the loss of Bryce Drew, it seems a bit up in the air as far as future success is concerned. Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym, that seemed to struggle with attendance last season. Loyola left a bad taste in people's mouth with their gym and pitiful attendance. Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on those things, because its not always how it appears, and I don't doubt that you all are capable of continuing success.
If I were an MVC fan, I'd be a lot more concerned about Belmont pivoting away from Byrd than Valpo pivoting away from the Drews. Byrd has been at Belmont for 31 years, is 63 years old, and is the only D-1 coach Belmont has ever had. Under the best of circumstances he probably has no more than 3-5 years left. It's impossible to predict whether Belmont will roll merrily along when Byrd leaves or fall off the table like a rock. For years Valpo was very successful under Homer Drew, then even more successful under Bryce. As another poster mentioned we had a very good first year under Matt Lottich, despite a combination of bizarre circumstances that seriously depleted this year's talent pool. With the players we have returning, new recruits and transfers, we should be good next year and very good again 2 years from now. And if you don't like Valpo's 3500 home game attendance, think about Belmont's 2500. The OVC is Belmont, Murray State, and everyone else. It's not that difficult to chalk up wins and go to the tournament down there. Lastly, Valpo has already switched conferences with impressive results in both. We dominated the Mid Con (Summit) for many years, switched to the Horizon, and have won the league 5 of the past 6 years, have gone to the NCAA tournament 2 the past 5 years, and lost in the NIT Championship game last year.
As to facilities, if the MVC wants Valpo, they should get a commitment in writing from Valpo's Administration to upgrade the ARC as part of the deal. This Administration absolutely loves to have its cake and eat it too. There is no reason to think they will spend a dime on the ARC, short of having a gun put to their head.
In response to the UNI fan, we do draw well against better teams. This season we had some terrible games drawing less then 2000 which hurt our average. Generally we are drawing around 3500. Against Rhode Island we had 4149. Last year we drew better with 4117 coming for IPFW, 4987 for Wright State, 4863 for Oakland and then 4991 for Florida State and 5444 for St. Mary's.
The thing about the ARC is the fact that it is a very difficult place to play--for the visitors! Folks are right on top of the floor as are the students. When it's rockin, it is ROCKIN!!
Whoever said that the fans are tired of the crappy teams in the Horizon, hit it on the head. Playing UNI, Drake, Indiana State and Evansville will bring back rivalries going back to the old ICC days. We first played Evansville in 1931 and Indiana State in 1939. Drake already belongs in our football conference.
Academically we fit much better in the Valley. Including Valpo, there would be five teams ranked by US News, who were ranked in the top 20 of Midwestern Regional Universities. Valpo, Drake, Bradley, Evansville and UNI. In the Horizon we are the only school ranked in the top 20 and some schools have horrible academic reputations.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 06, 2017, 01:08:05 PM
Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up. Some think we shouldn't bother adding anyone this year, and set up for a bigger expansion next year. I don't think that bodes well, especially if your Horizon is trying to also gear up for an expansion.
You would be hard pressed to argue that moving to the MVC isn't a significant step up. Money, exposure, atmosphere, and competition are all pluses. I do have to agree that multi bid chances take a major blow without WSU, which is not to say it won't be possible. Our team is reloading, but Ben Jacobsen has proved over and over he can produce an at large caliber team. I don't think it's a stretch to say Illinois State could do the same. Most of the rest of the valley have tasted success and have the resources to be strong teams. That doesn't necessarily mean a lot, but at least they put basketball in the driver seat of their athletics. As far as UNI and ISUr jumping ship to go to fbs football, I don't think that is realistic right now. However, if the valley really screws up in filling WSU's void, we might push for a change, but resource wise, it would still be a stretch.
On another note, there are some concerns in the idea of taking you guys in. Fresh off the loss of Bryce Drew, it seems a bit up in the air as far as future success is concerned. Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym, that seemed to struggle with attendance last season. Loyola left a bad taste in people's mouth with their gym and pitiful attendance. Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on those things, because its not always how it appears, and I don't doubt that you all are capable of continuing success.
I might be one of a handful of fans on this board (actually I might be the only one) who believes that Valpo should take FBS football into consideration when making a conference move to the Valley. If Valpo is offered a spot in the MVC, the likelihood of any potential future move up by either Missouri State, Illinois State or UNI to FBS via an existing FBS conference is concerning as far as conference stability is concerned, IMO. We don't have to really worry about this at all in the HL. As for jumping to FBS, you say it's not realistic now, but what about in five or so years when these G5 FBS conferences either have already renegotiated media deals or are in the process of doing so? I would hate to see the stability of a "Valpo membered" MVC completely dependent upon CUSA or Sun Belt expansion or lack thereof if we make the move.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 06, 2017, 01:08:05 PM
Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up. Some think we shouldn't bother adding anyone this year, and set up for a bigger expansion next year. I don't think that bodes well, especially if your Horizon is trying to also gear up for an expansion.
You would be hard pressed to argue that moving to the MVC isn't a significant step up. Money, exposure, atmosphere, and competition are all pluses. I do have to agree that multi bid chances take a major blow without WSU, which is not to say it won't be possible. Our team is reloading, but Ben Jacobsen has proved over and over he can produce an at large caliber team. I don't think it's a stretch to say Illinois State could do the same. Most of the rest of the valley have tasted success and have the resources to be strong teams. That doesn't necessarily mean a lot, but at least they put basketball in the driver seat of their athletics. As far as UNI and ISUr jumping ship to go to fbs football, I don't think that is realistic right now. However, if the valley really screws up in filling WSU's void, we might push for a change, but resource wise, it would still be a stretch.
On another note, there are some concerns in the idea of taking you guys in. Fresh off the loss of Bryce Drew, it seems a bit up in the air as far as future success is concerned. Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym, that seemed to struggle with attendance last season. Loyola left a bad taste in people's mouth with their gym and pitiful attendance. Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on those things, because its not always how it appears, and I don't doubt that you all are capable of continuing success.
I've read most of the thread on the MVC forum, and it seems there's not a lot of love for Valpo. I didn't see this mentioned - how much of a mistake did the MVC make by choosing Loyola over Valpo the first time around? The MVC would have been a 3 bid league last year if they had Valpo instead of Loyola. There were concerns back then about Valpo's facilities. Yeah, still waiting for Bradley and Drake to become relevant based on their facilities. Drake has lost 70 games in the past three years, while Bradley has lost 71. Valpo has lost 70 games in 7 seasons.
So 4 years ago, Loyola entered the MVC. In that time, Valpo has won 100 games, won the conference 3 times, made the ncaa tournament, and was the runner up in the nit. Aside from the departing Wichita State, the only team with more success has been UNI, and even they couldn't finish above .500 vs d1 teams in two of those years.
Even take this year... Valpo's wins over Rhode Island, BYU, and Alabama were arguably better wins than what Wichita State or Illinois State had (out of conference).
So if the MVC wants to stick to their criteria of markets and facilities, so be it. Good luck at your state fair facility-competition. We'll be over here actually winning games.
Edit: I didn't mean to direct this rant at you- more so the various MVC fans that haven't learned anything from last time around.
Very well put on the conparisons a3huge. To UNIs question on transition, Coach Lottich is very well respected by his players and community. Most important is his drive to succeed. I'm more worried about his success and departure before the 31 year mark!!!
Quote from: vu72 on April 06, 2017, 03:42:49 PMAcademically we fit much better in the Valley. Including Valpo, there would be five teams ranked by US News, who were ranked in the top 20 of Midwestern Regional Universities. Valpo, Drake, Bradley, Evansville and UNI. In the Horizon we are the only school ranked in the top 20 and some schools have horrible academic reputations.
I'm not a huge fan of academic rankings (they're very subjective), but there is some truth to this. Here's a breakdown of the conferences by Carnegie classification:
Horizon (excluding Valpo): Five Doctoral Universities (two R1, one R2, two R3; all public), Four Masters Universities (one private, three public).
Missouri Valley (excluding Wichita St): Four Doctoral Universities (three R2, one R3; three public, one private), Five Masters Universities (three private, two public)
Considering that Valpo is classified as a private masters university, there is one similar school in the Horizon (Detroit-Mercy) and three similar schools in the MVC (Bradley, Drake, Evansville).
There isn't a huge difference in doctoral (primarily research) universities vs. masters (primarily undergrad focused with a handful of masters programs) universities, but there is a substantial difference between private vs. public.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 06, 2017, 04:34:59 PM
Quote from: UNIfan on April 06, 2017, 01:08:05 PM
Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up. Some think we shouldn't bother adding anyone this year, and set up for a bigger expansion next year. I don't think that bodes well, especially if your Horizon is trying to also gear up for an expansion.
You would be hard pressed to argue that moving to the MVC isn't a significant step up. Money, exposure, atmosphere, and competition are all pluses. I do have to agree that multi bid chances take a major blow without WSU, which is not to say it won't be possible. Our team is reloading, but Ben Jacobsen has proved over and over he can produce an at large caliber team. I don't think it's a stretch to say Illinois State could do the same. Most of the rest of the valley have tasted success and have the resources to be strong teams. That doesn't necessarily mean a lot, but at least they put basketball in the driver seat of their athletics. As far as UNI and ISUr jumping ship to go to fbs football, I don't think that is realistic right now. However, if the valley really screws up in filling WSU's void, we might push for a change, but resource wise, it would still be a stretch.
On another note, there are some concerns in the idea of taking you guys in. Fresh off the loss of Bryce Drew, it seems a bit up in the air as far as future success is concerned. Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym, that seemed to struggle with attendance last season. Loyola left a bad taste in people's mouth with their gym and pitiful attendance. Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on those things, because its not always how it appears, and I don't doubt that you all are capable of continuing success.
I might be one of a handful of fans on this board (actually I might be the only one) who believes that Valpo should take FBS football into consideration when making a conference move to the Valley. If Valpo is offered a spot in the MVC, the likelihood of any potential future move up by either Missouri State, Illinois State or UNI to FBS via an existing FBS conference is concerning as far as conference stability is concerned, IMO. We don't have to really worry about this at all in the HL. As for jumping to FBS, you say it's not realistic now, but what about in five or so years when these G5 FBS conferences either have already renegotiated media deals or are in the process of doing so? I would hate to see the stability of a "Valpo membered" MVC completely dependent upon CUSA or Sun Belt expansion or lack thereof if we make the move.
If Valpo can't find funding for the ARC, how are we going to move from FCS non-scholarship (and 5k Brown Field) to FBS (Alabama, Big 10, etc.)?
I would agree that the University should look at other FCS options - FCS limited scholarships and full FCS scholarship. Some of these schools have football stadiums less than 20k, which might be doable. Some serious capital would need to be expended to move into FCS scholarship land, and I don't see how ($$ wise) we could make the leap to FBS.
Wha?????????????
You missed his point. VU FB is not a factor. Stop right there.
Quote from: covufan on April 06, 2017, 05:47:22 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 06, 2017, 04:34:59 PMQuote from: UNIfan on April 06, 2017, 01:08:05 PMHey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up. Some think we shouldn't bother adding anyone this year, and set up for a bigger expansion next year. I don't think that bodes well, especially if your Horizon is trying to also gear up for an expansion. You would be hard pressed to argue that moving to the MVC isn't a significant step up. Money, exposure, atmosphere, and competition are all pluses. I do have to agree that multi bid chances take a major blow without WSU, which is not to say it won't be possible. Our team is reloading, but Ben Jacobsen has proved over and over he can produce an at large caliber team. I don't think it's a stretch to say Illinois State could do the same. Most of the rest of the valley have tasted success and have the resources to be strong teams. That doesn't necessarily mean a lot, but at least they put basketball in the driver seat of their athletics. As far as UNI and ISUr jumping ship to go to fbs football, I don't think that is realistic right now. However, if the valley really screws up in filling WSU's void, we might push for a change, but resource wise, it would still be a stretch. On another note, there are some concerns in the idea of taking you guys in. Fresh off the loss of Bryce Drew, it seems a bit up in the air as far as future success is concerned. Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym, that seemed to struggle with attendance last season. Loyola left a bad taste in people's mouth with their gym and pitiful attendance. Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on those things, because its not always how it appears, and I don't doubt that you all are capable of continuing success.
I might be one of a handful of fans on this board (actually I might be the only one) who believes that Valpo should take FBS football into consideration when making a conference move to the Valley. If Valpo is offered a spot in the MVC, the likelihood of any potential future move up by either Missouri State, Illinois State or UNI to FBS via an existing FBS conference is concerning as far as conference stability is concerned, IMO. We don't have to really worry about this at all in the HL. As for jumping to FBS, you say it's not realistic now, but what about in five or so years when these G5 FBS conferences either have already renegotiated media deals or are in the process of doing so? I would hate to see the stability of a "Valpo membered" MVC completely dependent upon CUSA or Sun Belt expansion or lack thereof if we make the move.
If Valpo can't find funding for the ARC, how are we going to move from FCS non-scholarship (and 5k Brown Field) to FBS (Alabama, Big 10, etc.)? I would agree that the University should look at other FCS options - FCS limited scholarships and full FCS scholarship. Some of these schools have football stadiums less than 20k, which might be doable. Some serious capital would need to be expended to move into FCS scholarship land, and I don't see how ($$ wise) we could make the leap to FBS.
I think crusaderjoe meant that Valpo should take the possibility of
current MVC schools (MSU, ISUr, UNI) moving up to FBS into account, rather than consider it ourselves.
So.................................
For Valpo it comes down to a new conference where we will be fighting to be relevant versus a conference where we have dominated and can reload and continue the excellence. Therefore, the decision is similar to the Belmont philosophy -- dominate where you are (probably a NCAA bid every other year) or take a flyer and have to work even harder to reach the top 4.
Suddenly, it occurs to me that all of our posts on getting to the Big Dance (via the HL) might be replaced by hoping we get into the top 4 of the MVC. People, being #5 in the MVC does not give us the exposure that being #1 in the Horizon has given us these past few years. Are we ready for that?
I am. We proved that we could make the leap from Mid-Con to HL. Why not to the MVC.
Friggin GO Valpo!!
(Sorry, that was my evening martini talking (bad martini, bad martini)
BTW, and FYI: The MVC supports the following sports:
MEN
Baseball
Basketball
CC
Soccer
S&D (MAC)
Golf
Tennis
T&F
WOMEN
Basketball
CC
Golf
Soccer
Tennis
Softball
S&D
Volleyball
T&F
They also list
MVFC
Pioneer FB League - Drake (only)
We also have
Bowling (not HL either)
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 06, 2017, 06:24:36 PM
BTW, and FYI: The MVC supports the following sports:
MEN
Baseball
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Not women's T&F?
Another BTW, I hope the MVC says "screw it, go for the A-10 model and invite 3 schools." My choices: Valpo (of course), Omaha and somebody else (I seriously doubt Belmont will act contrary to their established strategy).
A sad note to this -- if only the athletic administration at UWM was competent, they would make a good addition as well.
Please keep Valpo football out of this conversation; it has nothing to do with the discussion.
More Conference Realignment On Way: Why Belmont (And Others) Should Stay Put
Steve Layman
9:58 AM, Apr 6, 2017
http://www.newschannel5.com/sports/more-conference-realignment-on-way-why-belmont-and-others-should-stay-put
Quote from: wh on April 06, 2017, 08:52:59 PM
More Conference Realignment On Way: Why Belmont (And Others) Should Stay Put
Steve Layman
9:58 AM, Apr 6, 2017
http://www.newschannel5.com/sports/more-conference-realignment-on-way-why-belmont-and-others-should-stay-put
Wow, a pundit mentioned kinda the same thing as....
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 06, 2017, 06:09:34 PM
So.................................
For Valpo it comes down to a new conference where we will be fighting to be relevant versus a conference where we have dominated and can reload and continue the excellence. Therefore, the decision is similar to the Belmont philosophy -- dominate where you are (probably a NCAA bid every other year) or take a flyer and have to work even harder to reach the top 4.
Suddenly, it occurs to me that all of our posts on getting to the Big Dance (via the HL) might be replaced by hoping we get into the top 4 of the MVC. People, being #5 in the MVC does not give us the exposure that being #1 in the Horizon has given us these past few years. Are we ready for that?
I am. We proved that we could make the leap from Mid-Con to HL. Why not to the MVC.
Friggin GO Valpo!!
(Sorry, that was my evening martini talking (bad martini, bad martini)
Ah, a conundrum.
Evansville fan here. I too feel you are on the short list, and personally hope you are the first call. I would also like to see Belmont, and a FCS public, such as Murray State added. This would bring the Valley to (6) similar publics, and (6) very similar privates.
I wouldn't be too worried about a FBS defection anytime soon. UNI could, but seems unlikely in the next 5 years. The State of Illinois is in deep financial straits, with some serious budget cutting taking place. Don't see ILSU being able to make any such move for quite some time. Same for Southern. Indiana State is already spending considerably less than the rest of the Valley on basketball. There is no way they can pool anymore for FBS. MSU could end up in the Sun Belt, but again, just don't see them taking that plunge, especially considering the state of the basketball program. I do feel at some point, the same differences that imploded the Big East could do the same here, with the MVFC going one way, and the privates another. If Valpo and Belmont are with the privates, simply adding an Oakland, Detroit and or Denver, and you would have a good starting point for a "Midwest Private League".
IMO, the MVC will be fine IF: 1. League expansion to 12 with 2 solid privates..ie Valpo and Belmont, and a FCS public such as Murray State.
2. The schools also enact a tough OOC scheduling mandate, similar to what was in place when we sent 4 to the NCAA in '06. I am not sitting in a glass house. I fully realize Marty has been one of the worst offenders of this. We paid dearly for this last year, with 26 wins, a 2nd place in both the regular season, and MVC tournament, and not even a NIT sniff. Trust me, most UE fans are growing tired of Martyball, and we are certainly tired of his pansy OOC scheduling.
Sorry to invade your board. Good luck, and hopefully when the dust settles, we can renew our long rivalry in a conference setting.
Quote from: a3uge on April 06, 2017, 07:12:53 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 06, 2017, 12:15:04 AM
The Summit finished at #17, while the HL was #19 this season.
http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html
http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html
Quote from: valpotx on April 07, 2017, 06:27:46 AM
Quote from: a3uge on April 06, 2017, 07:12:53 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 06, 2017, 12:15:04 AM
The Summit finished at #17, while the HL was #19 this season.
http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html
http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html
Lol they're literally missing a team.
Quote from: E-Villan on April 07, 2017, 12:10:29 AM
Evansville fan here. I too feel you are on the short list, and personally hope you are the first call. I would also like to see Belmont, and a FCS public, such as Murray State added. This would bring the Valley to (6) similar publics, and (6) very similar privates.
I wouldn't be too worried about a FBS defection anytime soon. UNI could, but seems unlikely in the next 5 years. The State of Illinois is in deep financial straits, with some serious budget cutting taking place. Don't see ILSU being able to make any such move for quite some time. Same for Southern. Indiana State is already spending considerably less than the rest of the Valley on basketball. There is no way they can pool anymore for FBS. MSU could end up in the Sun Belt, but again, just don't see them taking that plunge, especially considering the state of the basketball program. I do feel at some point, the same differences that imploded the Big East could do the same here, with the MVFC going one way, and the privates another. If Valpo and Belmont are with the privates, simply adding an Oakland, Detroit and or Denver, and you would have a good starting point for a "Midwest Private League".
IMO, the MVC will be fine IF: 1. League expansion to 12 with 2 solid privates..ie Valpo and Belmont, and a FCS public such as Murray State.
2. The schools also enact a tough OOC scheduling mandate, similar to what was in place when we sent 4 to the NCAA in '06. I am not sitting in a glass house. I fully realize Marty has been one of the worst offenders of this. We paid dearly for this last year, with 26 wins, a 2nd place in both the regular season, and MVC tournament, and not even a NIT sniff. Trust me, most UE fans are growing tired of Martyball, and we are certainly tired of his pansy OOC scheduling.
Sorry to invade your board. Good luck, and hopefully when the dust settles, we can renew our long rivalry in a conference setting.
Welcome Evillan. No need to apologize for an informative post. Glad you felt compelled to add your ideas. I personally hope that the MVC adds 3 to replace one and shores up the bottom half of the conference. Just like in the HL, the need to implement OOC guidelines and standards is very important to mid-major conference survival. Even a pre-conference season MVC/HL Challenge could produce some upticks in respective RPIs. Then throw in neutral site tournaments and away games vs. P5/6 teams and good things might happen. Mid-major conferences have to proactively work together. Each team/conference going their own separate way has resulted in the perpetuation of the single bid situation.
Looking forward to more of your insight. Also looking forward to resuming the rivalry -- it's been too long since the old ICC days.
Today is a big day. All eyes are turned to the AAC office in Providence, RI. What will the news be ::)
Just adding my belated observation on the physical composition of the HL vs. MVC. I looked up each school (skipped WSU) on Google Maps and did a 30,000' view of the respective campuses. One thing, which most of you already know and I'm late to the party on, stood out to me as a big difference: commuter institutions vs. established destination campuses. In very wide-sweeping terms, my flyovers of the MVC schools told me - destination campus (with some small exceptions). Flying over the HL schools, I concluded that the majority have a parking lot look to them and therefore were commuter environments. Valpo obviously fits in the destination campus category. To me, one more little reason to support a move. :twocents:
That is an excellent point in terms of academic "fit" -- MVC certainly is a residential campus conference, similar to Valpo. The HL has more of a "commuter school" flair. (That said, I'll note that the commuter-school tag can hang around a university's neck for a long time even well after that's no longer true. UIC is a great example of this - it's evolved into a destination campus now, with most undergraduate students living on or near campus, with the "commuters" pretty much limited to their grad programs).
SI is reporting that AAC has officially invited Wichita, so let the jockeying begin....
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 07, 2017, 07:39:18 AM
Quote from: E-Villan on April 07, 2017, 12:10:29 AM
Evansville fan here. I too feel you are on the short list, and personally hope you are the first call. I would also like to see Belmont, and a FCS public, such as Murray State added. This would bring the Valley to (6) similar publics, and (6) very similar privates.
I wouldn't be too worried about a FBS defection anytime soon. UNI could, but seems unlikely in the next 5 years. The State of Illinois is in deep financial straits, with some serious budget cutting taking place. Don't see ILSU being able to make any such move for quite some time. Same for Southern. Indiana State is already spending considerably less than the rest of the Valley on basketball. There is no way they can pool anymore for FBS. MSU could end up in the Sun Belt, but again, just don't see them taking that plunge, especially considering the state of the basketball program. I do feel at some point, the same differences that imploded the Big East could do the same here, with the MVFC going one way, and the privates another. If Valpo and Belmont are with the privates, simply adding an Oakland, Detroit and or Denver, and you would have a good starting point for a "Midwest Private League".
IMO, the MVC will be fine IF: 1. League expansion to 12 with 2 solid privates..ie Valpo and Belmont, and a FCS public such as Murray State.
2. The schools also enact a tough OOC scheduling mandate, similar to what was in place when we sent 4 to the NCAA in '06. I am not sitting in a glass house. I fully realize Marty has been one of the worst offenders of this. We paid dearly for this last year, with 26 wins, a 2nd place in both the regular season, and MVC tournament, and not even a NIT sniff. Trust me, most UE fans are growing tired of Martyball, and we are certainly tired of his pansy OOC scheduling.
Sorry to invade your board. Good luck, and hopefully when the dust settles, we can renew our long rivalry in a conference setting.
Welcome Evillan. No need to apologize for an informative post. Glad you felt compelled to add your ideas. I personally hope that the MVC adds 3 to replace one and shores up the bottom half of the conference. Just like in the HL, the need to implement OOC guidelines and standards is very important to mid-major conference survival. Even a pre-conference season MVC/HL Challenge could produce some upticks in respective RPIs. Then throw in neutral site tournaments and away games vs. P5/6 teams and good things might happen. Mid-major conferences have to proactively work together. Each team/conference going their own separate way has resulted in the perpetuation of the single bid situation.
Looking forward to more of your insight. Also looking forward to resuming the rivalry -- it's been too long since the old ICC days.
Scheduling mandates would be useful for the top teams to ensure they're in the top 100 RPI, which means a better seed come tournament time. But mandating a harder schedule for teams like YSU, Cleveland State, and UWM would be counterproductive. Remember, the best way to improve CONFERENCE RPI is to have every team have a better win-loss percentage. The selection committee doesn't really look at conference SOS. Conferences that schedule really easy (the MAC), actually have strong RPIs with multiple top 100 teams, and receive better seeds come March, despite having poor individual OOC SOS's... and not as good teams. But I digress.
Also, due to the scheduling difficulty of mid majors, you may end up with teams playing only on the road to meet the criteria, because often times, the only home games a mid major can get is a Chicago State level team.
It's official, ACC presidents voted Wichita St. (its not a state, I looked it up) into the conference. My phone is on and just waiting for the invite.....
This is will cause big change for midwest mid-majors.
Ok, here's the SI link that announces the bid. An official announcement will be after paperwork is complete.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/04/07/aac-conference-adds-wichita-state-shockers
Here is the USToday account.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/aac/2017/04/07/wichita-state-shockers-american-athletic-missouri-valley-conference-change/100127716/
From that article: "Creighton was quickly replaced by Loyola-Chicago in 2013, and odds are Valparaiso would be a sensible-yet-underwhelming ( :-X ) fill-in for the void the Shockers leave. But that all but assures the Valley, which sent a whopping four teams to the NCAA tournament in 2006, would be a yearly one-bid league — just another blow to a mid-major conference due to conference realignment."
SO...
Step One -- complete. WSU to leave MVC and join AAC
Step Two -- MVC meets Sunday
Step Three -- Invite(s) go out -- TBD
Step Four -- Invite(s) accepted
Stay tuned boys and girls. Same Bat Time. Same Bat Station Channel. (Fixed it)
No, Same Bat Channel!!!!
Correct you are, boy blunder - WHO WHO WHo WHO WHO
I just hope the MVC commissioner is not Gordon
When this thread was begun years ago and the MVC added Loyola, the other universities considered were UIC, Belmont, UMKC, and Valpo. Other programs likely would be under consideration this time. However, history would suggest that if the MVC adds three universities, Valpo would be an easy choice. In fact, Valpo, Belmont, and UMKC would be a good trio (UIC would be redundant with Loyola already in).
However, if the MVC selects only one team and Valpo isn't chosen, then VU will need to re-evaluate its program. If St. Louis were the one team selected, that would be understandable, and Belmont brings the Nashville market (Omaha and UMKC would also bring large markets). Nevertheless, Valpo has had four years to prepare for another chance at moving to the MVC, and that should have been enough time to make the program attractive. Mark LaBarbera has basically said Valpo is just waiting for a call from the MVC and hoping they find VU appealing. Certainly, on the court the team has done its part.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 07, 2017, 10:48:15 AM
Ok, here's the SI link that announces the bid. An official announcement will be after paperwork is complete.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/04/07/aac-conference-adds-wichita-state-shockers
Here is the USToday account.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/aac/2017/04/07/wichita-state-shockers-american-athletic-missouri-valley-conference-change/100127716/
From that article: "Creighton was quickly replaced by Loyola-Chicago in 2013, and odds are Valparaiso would be a sensible-yet-underwhelming ( :-X ) fill-in for the void the Shockers leave. But that all but assures the Valley, which sent a whopping four teams to the NCAA tournament in 2006, would be a yearly one-bid league — just another blow to a mid-major conference due to conference realignment."
SO...
Step One -- complete. WSU to leave MVC and join AAC
Step Two -- MVC meets Sunday
Step Three -- Invite(s) go out -- TBD
Step Four -- Invite(s) accepted
Stay tuned boys and girls. Same Bat Time. Same Bat Station Channel. (Fixed it)
I'm not sure what "underwhelming" means. No, we can't cure cancer, but we do have more wins over the past 5 years and a better national reputation than any of the 9 remaining teams in the MVC. We could be the league's standard bearer in 2 years. That's all we can do. The rest is up to the other 9 to stop living off someone else's success and elevate their own program to tournament worthy status. Most of them aren't even close in terms recruiting, scheduling, and in some cases coaching.
Quote from: E-Villan on April 07, 2017, 12:10:29 AM
Sorry to invade your board. Good luck, and hopefully when the dust settles, we can renew our long rivalry in a conference setting.
No reason to be sorry E-villan, love to hear from other perspectives. I have a soft spot for UE, my oldest daughter went there and my wife and I were on the Parent's Council during that time. I enjoyed going to games at Roberts Stadium and wished that VU had that kind of attendance. Unfortunately, this was during the Steve Merfeld days so the product on the floor could have been a little better. I often talked to administrators about the similarities between VU and EU and how proud they were of their MVC affiliation, I have to admit that I was a little jealous of their conference affiliation.
From what I know, I would think that EU would lobby pretty hard for VU to join the conference and I hope they get the opportunity to do just that. I believe that the MVC is currently, and has a better opportunity to remain, a higher caliber Mid-Major Conference than the Horizon League. I also prefer the public-private makeup of the conference.
I don't really see any issues with the slightly longer travel distances to Drake, Northern Iowa and Missouri State because this is somewhat offset by the fact that the MVC has 4 teams within 200 miles of VU and the HL only has 2.
Here's hoping for an interesting next couple of weeks!
Quote from: wh on April 07, 2017, 11:54:39 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 07, 2017, 10:48:15 AM
Ok, here's the SI link that announces the bid. An official announcement will be after paperwork is complete.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/04/07/aac-conference-adds-wichita-state-shockers
Here is the USToday account.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/aac/2017/04/07/wichita-state-shockers-american-athletic-missouri-valley-conference-change/100127716/
From that article: "Creighton was quickly replaced by Loyola-Chicago in 2013, and odds are Valparaiso would be a sensible-yet-underwhelming ( :-X ) fill-in for the void the Shockers leave. But that all but assures the Valley, which sent a whopping four teams to the NCAA tournament in 2006, would be a yearly one-bid league — just another blow to a mid-major conference due to conference realignment."
SO...
Step One -- complete. WSU to leave MVC and join AAC
Step Two -- MVC meets Sunday
Step Three -- Invite(s) go out -- TBD
Step Four -- Invite(s) accepted
Stay tuned boys and girls. Same Bat Time. Same Bat Station Channel. (Fixed it)
I'm not sure what "underwhelming" means. No, we can't cure cancer, but we do have more wins over the past 5 years and a better national reputation than any of the 9 remaining teams in the MVC. We could be the league's standard bearer in 2 years. That's all we can do. The rest is up to the other 9 to stop living off someone else's success and elevate their own program to tournament worthy status. Most of them aren't even close in terms recruiting, scheduling, and in some cases coaching.
UNI clearly IMO has a better national brand than us. Past that, you are correct.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on April 07, 2017, 12:11:26 PM
Quote from: wh on April 07, 2017, 11:54:39 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 07, 2017, 10:48:15 AM
Ok, here's the SI link that announces the bid. An official announcement will be after paperwork is complete.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/04/07/aac-conference-adds-wichita-state-shockers
Here is the USToday account.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/aac/2017/04/07/wichita-state-shockers-american-athletic-missouri-valley-conference-change/100127716/
From that article: "Creighton was quickly replaced by Loyola-Chicago in 2013, and odds are Valparaiso would be a sensible-yet-underwhelming ( :-X ) fill-in for the void the Shockers leave. But that all but assures the Valley, which sent a whopping four teams to the NCAA tournament in 2006, would be a yearly one-bid league — just another blow to a mid-major conference due to conference realignment."
SO...
Step One -- complete. WSU to leave MVC and join AAC
Step Two -- MVC meets Sunday
Step Three -- Invite(s) go out -- TBD
Step Four -- Invite(s) accepted
Stay tuned boys and girls. Same Bat Time. Same Bat Station Channel. (Fixed it)
I'm not sure what "underwhelming" means. No, we can't cure cancer, but we do have more wins over the past 5 years and a better national reputation than any of the 9 remaining teams in the MVC. We could be the league's standard bearer in 2 years. That's all we can do. The rest is up to the other 9 to stop living off someone else's success and elevate their own program to tournament worthy status. Most of them aren't even close in terms recruiting, scheduling, and in some cases coaching.
UNI clearly IMO has a better national brand than us. Past that, you are correct.
Second that
Quote from: wh on April 06, 2017, 03:35:04 PMAs to facilities, if the MVC wants Valpo, they should get a commitment in writing from Valpo's Administration to upgrade the ARC as part of the deal. This Administration absolutely loves to have its cake and eat it too. There is no reason to think they will spend a dime on the ARC, short of having a gun put to their head.
So sad but so very true!
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 06, 2017, 06:35:07 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 06, 2017, 06:32:53 PM
Not women's T&F?
Oops - fixed that.
Yes, but since it's memorialized in his post should he, FieldGoodie, strike through..........wait, nothing to strike through........and add T&F under
WOMEN
Quote from: wh on April 07, 2017, 11:54:39 AMI'm not sure what "underwhelming" means. No, we can't cure cancer, but we do have more wins over the past 5 years and a better national reputation than any of the 9 remaining teams in the MVC. We could be the league's standard bearer in 2 years. That's all we can do. The rest is up to the other 9 to stop living off someone else's success and elevate their own program to tournament worthy status. Most of them aren't even close in terms recruiting, scheduling, and in some cases coaching.
My feeling is that they meant we were "underwhelming" when seen as a replacement for WSU, not necessarily compared to the other, realistic, choices.
Quote from: E-Villan on April 07, 2017, 12:10:29 AMSorry to invade your board. Good luck, and hopefully when the dust settles, we can renew our long rivalry in a conference setting.
No worry, we have regular invaders on this board. Great to have your input.
Most of the old timers on this board would love to see Evansville on the schedule twice a year and renew what was a very good rivalry--too bad the old football rivalry couldn't be renewed.
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/850414562079887361
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/850414808226770945
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-targeting-valpo-murray-state-additions-following-wichita-states-departure/
MVC targeting Valpo, Murray State as additions following Wichita State's departure
By: Jon Rothstein
Posted on Apr 7, 2017
The Missouri Valley Conference is targeting both Valparaiso and Murray State as potential additions following Wichita State's departure to the American Athletic Conference, multiple sources told FanRag Sports.
Those two additions would give the league 11 teams in total which would lead to each team playing twice during the regular season in a 20-game league format, according to separate source.
FanRag Sports reported earlier this week that the MVC presidents and athletic directors would meet on Sunday in Saint Louis to discuss the future of the league.
Wichita State officially joined the American Athletic Conference on Friday.
The Shockers became the 12th basketball program in the league. They join Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut, East Carolina, Houston, Memphis, South Florida, SMU, Temple, Tulane and Tulsa as current conference members.
While operating in the Missouri Valley Conference, Wichita State managed to make six-straight trips to the NCAA Tournament. Since Gregg Marshall became the program's head coach in 2007, the Shockers have an overall record of 261-90. Marshall just finished his 10th season as the head coach of Wichita State.
FanRag Sports will have more on this situation as it develops behind the scenes.
That would be awesome. Hope that report is correct.
TONS of MVC talk on BISON 1660 am radio from 11am-1pm right now.
NDSU admin & play by play people really pushing for it.
Thats the biggest difference between our AD and others. ML is very candid.
NDSU is not going to be in the MVC for all sports. Too far away.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 07, 2017, 01:30:24 PM
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/850414562079887361
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/850414808226770945
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-targeting-valpo-murray-state-additions-following-wichita-states-departure/
MVC targeting Valpo, Murray State as additions following Wichita State's departure
By: Jon Rothstein
Posted on Apr 7, 2017
The Missouri Valley Conference is targeting both Valparaiso and Murray State as potential additions following Wichita State's departure to the American Athletic Conference, multiple sources told FanRag Sports.
Those two additions would give the league 11 teams in total which would lead to each team playing twice during the regular season in a 20-game league format, according to separate source.
FanRag Sports reported earlier this week that the MVC presidents and athletic directors would meet on Sunday in Saint Louis to discuss the future of the league.
Wichita State officially joined the American Athletic Conference on Friday.
The Shockers became the 12th basketball program in the league. They join Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut, East Carolina, Houston, Memphis, South Florida, SMU, Temple, Tulane and Tulsa as current conference members.
While operating in the Missouri Valley Conference, Wichita State managed to make six-straight trips to the NCAA Tournament. Since Gregg Marshall became the program's head coach in 2007, the Shockers have an overall record of 261-90. Marshall just finished his 10th season as the head coach of Wichita State.
FanRag Sports will have more on this situation as it develops behind the scenes.
20 conference games is no problem if that means we get to see Murray State twice a year. Totally reasonable number of conference games. Makes non-con scheduling easier since the 2 games you take away are against crap teams that kill your RPI or non-D1 teams. Perfect! Make it happen MVC!
2 against UNI, 2 again Murray State, 2 against Missouri State, 2 agains ILLST every year. We can probably keep a home and home non-con schedule against Oakland so we see them twice a year since Kampe loves playing us. That is 10 really good to decent RPI games every year. Cuts out the need for 250+ non-con RPI games or non D1 games. Throw in a tournament (2 games) every year and a couple of buy games against high majors (2 games) and our schedule would be borderline set.
If that's a go, does Murray State move over to the MVFC? Would think so. That would, with the recent addition of U North Dakota, make 12 MVFC members. Two divisions and a playoff?
But would that piss off the Dakota schools? Would they vote to exclude MSU? Would that be a deal breaker for BB?
Sounds good so far: Valparaiso and Murray State are two of the three I recommended from the very beginning. The third was Belmont. Valpo would be travel partner for Loyola. Come on MVC & Belmont: Belmont could be added as well as a travel partner for Murray State!
* * *
MVC targeting Valpo, Murray State as additions following Wichita State's departure[/size]By: Jon RothsteinPosted on Apr 7, 2017
sorry to bring this up, but could you imagine how Bill Steinbrecher or Alan Harre would handle this situation?
Not very many mvc fans are happy Valpo is a lead candidate....
To be fair, they've just seen their league poached of its best program. Were we thrilled when Butler and then Loyola left and were replaced with teams from the Summit League and the A-Sun? If we get a "fine, cool" from them we're doing about as well as can be expected, given the situation.
Can someone post MVC board?
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 07, 2017, 02:27:19 PM
Not very many mvc fans are happy Valpo is a lead candidate....
Awesome! We experienced the same from the HL school fans, and we came to dominate the conference in men's basketball. Let's do the same in the MVC!
Has this message ever been this active? This could be a tremoudous time for Valpo athletics.
Quote from: wh on April 07, 2017, 11:54:39 AMWe could be the league's standard bearer in 2 years. That's all we can do. The rest is up to the other 9 to stop living off someone else's success and elevate their own program to tournament worthy status. Most of them aren't even close in terms recruiting, scheduling, and in some cases coaching.
I think we can be competitive in year one. In recruiting sense, we are at the top, along with UIC and Oakland, of the Horizon. In the MVC, without Wichita St, we would also be at the top - recruiting-wise.
http://www.verbalcommits.com/conferences/horizon
http://www.verbalcommits.com/conferences/missouri-valley
I could get behind the idea of adding you guys and Murray State, and I think I will be pulling for that as a best case scenario for the valley based on the reality of the situation. Belmont would be great, but we all know that is a stretch. I would look forward to having some fresh competition coming to the McLeod Center!
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 07, 2017, 02:27:19 PM
Not very many mvc fans are happy Valpo is a lead candidate....
Well, what school(s) do they put ahead of Valpo??? Kansas State? UMKC? Iowa State? Belmont? The Dakota schools? Denver Unversity? Omaha? ::) The options, realistically, are not that numerous.
Quote from: Pgmado on April 07, 2017, 02:33:58 PM
Can someone post MVC board?
Try this....
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewforum.php?f=2
A few things to consider regarding Plains schools:
I doubt SDSU would be too keen on leaving the Summit when the conference tournament is in their own backyard (Brookings to Sioux Falls is less than an hour). That'd be like Oakland leaving the Horizon and Motor City Madness, supposing they could actually win games at the Joe.
NDSU has natural rivalries in SDSU and soon-to-be UND in the Summit. Summit is a better geographic fit for NDSU, and Fargo not the best for the MVC. That said, NDSU basketball has had reasonable success in the last few years and may want to take a step up.
UNO is not in a good financial situation. They would probably have to increase spending to compete in the Horizon, plus balance a D-1 hockey program (expensive), which is not likely considering the budget shortfall in the UN system.
Makes sense to add an FCS program along with Valpo to keep both sides of the league happy, and the 20 game conference schedule also makes sense, especially with the MVC wanting to get home and homes with power conference teams, and not having much success doing it. The schools are better off playing each other rather than a couple games against the Chicago State's of the world.
The TV money will be better for a couple more years, and the leftover tourney money will be better (though probably not for Valpo and Murray State), and I'm sure the conference games will generate more fan interest, though it'll be interesting to see just how much more interest that amounts to.
The Horizon will be interesting going forward assuming Valpo leaves (which if they're invited, I'd be shocked if they didn't).
Have to say I'm amused at the posters on the MVC board going on and on about how terrible we were "without Peters." As opposed to all those Valley teams that would just keep rolling after losing an All-American the week before the conference tournament, I guess?
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 07, 2017, 02:20:18 PM
sorry to bring this up, but could you imagine how Bill Steinbrecher or Alan Harre would handle this situation?
Never would have happened back in the day, particularly when Jon was the Mid-Con commissioner.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 07, 2017, 01:30:24 PM
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/850414562079887361
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/850414808226770945
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-targeting-valpo-murray-state-additions-following-wichita-states-departure/
MVC targeting Valpo, Murray State as additions following Wichita State's departure
By: Jon Rothstein
Posted on Apr 7, 2017
The Missouri Valley Conference is targeting both Valparaiso and Murray State as potential additions following Wichita State's departure to the American Athletic Conference, multiple sources told FanRag Sports.
Those two additions would give the league 11 teams in total which would lead to each team playing twice during the regular season in a 20-game league format, according to separate source.
FanRag Sports reported earlier this week that the MVC presidents and athletic directors would meet on Sunday in Saint Louis to discuss the future of the league.
Wichita State officially joined the American Athletic Conference on Friday.
The Shockers became the 12th basketball program in the league. They join Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut, East Carolina, Houston, Memphis, South Florida, SMU, Temple, Tulane and Tulsa as current conference members.
While operating in the Missouri Valley Conference, Wichita State managed to make six-straight trips to the NCAA Tournament. Since Gregg Marshall became the program's head coach in 2007, the Shockers have an overall record of 261-90. Marshall just finished his 10th season as the head coach of Wichita State.
FanRag Sports will have more on this situation as it develops behind the scenes.
Over on the Milwaukee board Jimmy Lemke just said we're not leaving. He's saying Rothstein has it wrong. I guess that confirms that we are leaving. :)
Quote from: wh on April 07, 2017, 03:53:20 PM
I just got confirmation that we're leaving. Over on the Milwaukee board Jimmy Lemke said we're not. He's saying Rothstein has it wrong.
That's funny!
So it appears doing a quick perusal of the few active message boards in the HL and the top few in the MVC that nobody likes us. Is it wrong for me to take a perverse pleasure in that?
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 07, 2017, 03:58:53 PM
Quote from: wh on April 07, 2017, 03:53:20 PM
I just got confirmation that we're leaving. Over on the Milwaukee board Jimmy Lemke said we're not. He's saying Rothstein has it wrong.
That's funny!
He's still holding out hope for that UIC to MVC "done deal"
Since 2010 Valpo is:
4-2 vs. Loyola (including HL games)
5-0 vs. Missouri State
0-1 vs. Evansville
1-0 vs. Drake
2-0 vs. Indiana State
3-0 vs. Murray State (seems to be preferred choice of MVCfans.com)
Quote from: Valpo13 on April 07, 2017, 04:18:19 PM
Since 2010 Valpo is:
4-2 vs. Loyola (including HL games)
5-0 vs. Missouri State
0-1 vs. Evansville
1-0 vs. Drake
2-0 vs. Indiana State
3-0 vs. Murray State (seems to be preferred choice of MVCfans.com)
But geez, without Alec Peters VU is not Valley material. Good to know Alec has played with us for 7-years.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 07, 2017, 04:00:40 PM
So it appears doing a quick perusal of the few active message boards in the HL and the top few in the MVC that nobody likes us. Is it wrong for me to take a perverse pleasure in that?
I can't imagine why schools with 12,000+ students (HL schools like UWM, OU etc) don't eat us for lunch. It's their inferiority complexes and nothing else. Not sure we put out a vibe of elitist corn boys...
Even in the summit league (Mid-Con in my days) I don't recall this type of hatred towards us. Maybe it's proximity of the fan base, ORU and SUU were quite a ways.
Goes to show what winning gets you.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 07, 2017, 04:00:40 PM
So it appears doing a quick perusal of the few active message boards in the HL and the top few in the MVC that nobody likes us. Is it wrong for me to take a perverse pleasure in that?
I don't think that there is any real hatred toward us on the MVC forum (OK, maybe a few). It seems to be more concern about whether we can sustain the program without Alec and Bryce. They don't seem to know that we were down more that just Alec those last few games and they have no idea who we have coming in for next year. I think we are just reloading and certainly will not be a 250 rpi program like one of the posters thought. :crazy:
Yeah, the prevailing notion over there that our program somehow didn't exist before 2015 is quite perplexing. (Though I will credit one of their more data-savvy posters who noted that both us and Murray have the highest KenPom ratings over the past 11 years of any of the candidates being mentioned...)
This one cracked me up...
Quote
Since you asked....
1) Saint Louis. Convince them their best path to the Big East is through the MVC like Creighton.
Gives them the potential to be the next Wichita St or Gonzaga which isn't happening in the A10
So, your pitch to add a better team to your conference is to convince them it will be easier to *leave for a better conference* in a few years, putting your league right back where it is right now?
Look, if you can convince SLU to move to a league fewer bids, go for it, but I'm fairly certain this won't be the approach.
As an ISU fan I have seen a lot of people who are supportive of you moving to the MVC.
When was the last time that our RPI was over 200? Probably in 2008-2009, when we had several key players leave for various reasons? When before that?? We have a winning record in what, 22 of the last 24 seasons?
Jimmy is full of himself, and a bunch of other stuff. My favorite was Bryce to Northwestern was a done deal.
If we moved we would be in the top 3 in the Valley. Matt will have gained his coaching legs, Joe and Bakari are studs,Tevonn is all conference, our bigs gain a year of "growth" and we add probably the most athletic class ever to join the team. Other than that, we will suck! ;D
Valparaiso reportedly in consideration for Missouri Valley
Paul Oren Times Correspondent Apr 7, 2017 Updated 5 min ago
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/valparaiso-reportedly-in-consideration-for-missouri-valley/article_0de463b5-3af0-5a3c-8520-a03a48c76901.html
This is pretty Big. Apparently Belmont wants in badly. If the MVC only takes one then its game over folks. It's going to be Belmont if they want it. If they go 12 teams then I'd have to think Valpo would have to be in the Top 2-3.
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850533080548990976
https://twitter.com/mensign75/status/850535029419769856
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850535610410520576
https://twitter.com/alwurtz103/status/850536829841494016
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850537689447321600
https://twitter.com/alwurtz103/status/850538563351588865
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/850392524405579776
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850542633952964608
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850542812890374144
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850543249068523520
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/850549170788290560
12 teams in a 1-bid league is a bad idea. That's another 2 teams to split tournament revenue between. That's less chance of getting the auto bid.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 07, 2017, 09:45:23 PM
This is pretty Big. Apparently Belmont wants in badly. If the MVC only takes one then its game over folks. It's going to be Belmont if they want it. If they go 12 teams then I'd have to think Valpo would have to be in the Top 2-3.
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850533080548990976
https://twitter.com/mensign75/status/850535029419769856
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850535610410520576
https://twitter.com/alwurtz103/status/850536829841494016
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850537689447321600
https://twitter.com/alwurtz103/status/850538563351588865
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/850392524405579776
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850542633952964608
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850542812890374144
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850543249068523520
I'd be weary of shoddy, unprofessional journalism like that.
Quote from: a3uge on April 07, 2017, 10:22:55 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 07, 2017, 09:45:23 PM
This is pretty Big. Apparently Belmont wants in badly. If the MVC only takes one then its game over folks. It's going to be Belmont if they want it. If they go 12 teams then I'd have to think Valpo would have to be in the Top 2-3.
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850533080548990976
https://twitter.com/mensign75/status/850535029419769856
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850535610410520576
https://twitter.com/alwurtz103/status/850536829841494016
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850537689447321600
https://twitter.com/alwurtz103/status/850538563351588865
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/850392524405579776
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850542633952964608
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850542812890374144
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850543249068523520
I'd be weary of shoddy, unprofessional journalism like that.
The only person in the twitter chain saying that Belmont would be the MVC's first choice is Valpo Hoops. In all due respect Hoops isn't a source, he's a fan with an opinion like all the rest of us.
Quote from: wh on April 07, 2017, 10:30:40 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 07, 2017, 10:22:55 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 07, 2017, 09:45:23 PM
This is pretty Big. Apparently Belmont wants in badly. If the MVC only takes one then its game over folks. It's going to be Belmont if they want it. If they go 12 teams then I'd have to think Valpo would have to be in the Top 2-3.
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850533080548990976
https://twitter.com/mensign75/status/850535029419769856
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850535610410520576
https://twitter.com/alwurtz103/status/850536829841494016
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/850537689447321600
https://twitter.com/alwurtz103/status/850538563351588865
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/850392524405579776
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850542633952964608
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850542812890374144
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850543249068523520
I'd be weary of shoddy, unprofessional journalism like that.
The only person in the twitter chain saying that Belmont would be the MVC's first choice is Valpo Hoops. In all due respect Hoops isn't a source, he's a fan with an opinion like all the rest of us.
I was referring to the Illinois State beat reporter saying Belmont wants in badly on a Twitter reply to a random fan.
I'm just relaying what the reporter said... He is an ISU BBall team reporter for the The Pantagraph. I never said it was fact that if Belmont was coming to the MVC. It was pretty widely reported that Belmont was the MVC first choice over Loyola. I've asked quite a reporters (also "MidMajor Insiders") who they think would get the invite and most of them speculated Belmont if they wanted to actually leave the OVC. I do think Valpo makes sense even more now that Loyola is in the picture and we'd be a program that offers a very strong bball program but also a good travel partner to Loyola.
There is a lot of smoke/rumors flying around that is probably a lot garbage. Seems like the only thing that is consensus from reputable reporters/analysts out there is that it will either be 10 or 12 and 11 is unlikely.
Journalistic integrity has been thrown completely out the window these days. So who knows I guess.
If anyone is looking for one national media/analyst to follow I'd recommend Mark Adams. Very reputable & trustworthy.
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/850550583257956352
https://twitter.com/steveboleski/status/850552251601080321
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/850553466477064192
Quote from: ISUBird on April 07, 2017, 08:07:22 PM
As an ISU fan I have seen a lot of people who are supportive of you moving to the MVC.
Lots of ISU fans on twitter not happy with the suggestion of us coming in. We have an MVC basketball level budget and over the last 20 years our RPI stacks up extremely well to those currently left in the MVC. Other than Northern Iowa, I am not sure anybody in the MVC has a better national brand than Valpo. Aside from building a new gym I am not sure what else we can do to show we are committed to basketball.
Valpo was screwed over by the NCAA in 2016. Illinois State was screwed over by the NCAA in 2017. Seems like our programs have a lot in common.
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4679
These guys are awful. Valpo's been more consistent than anyone in the MVC sans UNI, but still, we're not good enough. One of their biggest knocks is that we developed a player too well.
I just don't get the people that bring up UMKC. They have been in that market for a long time, and never experienced much success in basketball. You are telling me that just because they move conferences, they will start to have success and gain fans? It is a commuter campus as well, and no one cares about the program in KC. We saw this when we played against them, and when they hosted the conference tournament. I can't imagine that their fan base has changed much since that time. We outnumbered their fans in their own city!!
Quote from: a3uge on April 07, 2017, 11:48:32 PM
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4679
These guys are awful. Valpo's been more consistent than anyone in the MVC sans UNI, but still, we're not good enough. One of their biggest knocks is that we developed a player too well.
Starting to get turned off by this. We don't have anything to prove to ignorant fans of MVC programs that we're far superior to. I'm starting to agree that they need Belmont and their 2500 fans and no message board to bail them out and we'll stay right where we're at.
Who is @Valpo_Hoops on twitter? Is that you VU2014?
Yes it is
So if we lobby to get in but don't, does the Horizon move the tourney to France? Or just Lecrone ref our games?
From what I was told there were two reasons why we didn't get the invite the first time around:
1) Location
2) Wichita State was against us getting in and basically held court over the other teams. They single handedly got us shot down.
MVC cannot afford to add a UMKC or another Loyola type team again. It will kill the MVC. It has to be a school dedicated to basketball with past history and name recognition. Imagine if the MVC had let us in years ago how much better that would have been for the league. Outside of 2 teams the MVC was weak last year. Wichita State had no choice but to get out quickly. Illinois State has not been ripping it up the last 20 years.
I see that the ultimate wet dream for some of these posting geniuses is to add St. Louis. The St. Louis that Jim Crews turned into a dumpster fire in 4 short years before being fired. The same St. Louis with a combined 34-63 record over the last 3 seasons and a combined 14-40 record in the A-10. The same St. Louis now under the direction of Travis Ford to resurrect from the ashes, a lifetime .500 coach.
I can just see it now. SLU becomes another .500 team in the MVC. They also add Belmont just before Byrd retires and they become a .500 team. 3 years from now they knock on Valpo's door again, only to find it locked and a post-em note attached with a brief message - "GFY."
Chairback are you saying that WSU was the "Butler of the HL"?
You guys shouldn't read too much into the MVC forum discussion. I think the nay-sayers have drowned out the rational people at this point. I think a majority of fans would be happy with this move, there are always gonna be the displeased coming to the forums to spew their arguments. I agree that it would be silly to say anyone but us has done better than you guys in the last few years.
That being said, your expectation to come in and rise to the top immediately may be a bit optimistic. Genuine question: Is your team gonna be improving next year or taking a step back?
You guys lost 4 Horizon league games last year and then against Mke in the tourney. It would be impossible to argue that 4 losses in your league wouldn't translate into a few more losses in Valley play. That still puts you around the top 3 because of how below average accross the board the Valley was last year. This year, Bradley, Loyola, Missouri State, (hopefully UNI, maybe not), and maybe some others will be taking steps up in talent.
I'm not saying you won't be competitive or maybe even have a shot at success, but your road wouldn't be getting easier than last years. If you want to stay in the Horizon and never open up your ability to really grow as a program just because a few people have their doubts, then so be it.
Outside the box thinking:
A10 = 14 schools
HL = 10 schools
MVC = 9 schools
OVC = 12 schools
Summit = 9 schools
Total = 54 schools
Since at-large bids are now borderline impossible. Why not come together to create 8 team conferences? Currently we have these 5 conferences representing 54 schools. Add in 2 more schools to the mix from somewhere and you get 56 schools. That is 7 conferences as opposed to the current 5. 8 schools in each. 2 more teams in the NCAA tourney every year and a greater % chance of getting your auto-bid. If you made 2 really strong conferences out of those 7 than perhaps 1 of the 2 stacked conferences get an at-large every year out of those 56 schools. 8 bids every year instead of 5.
Smaller conferences, not larger ones. Game the system.
Just because a conference is formed doesn't mean it immediately receives an automatic bid into the NCAA Tournament.
Quote from: valpo64 on April 08, 2017, 10:11:55 AMChairback are you saying that WSU was the "Butler of the HL"?
Speaking of Butler, after their departure LeCrone had a brief moment in time where the HL could have been reinvented. He puttered around with conventional thinking and the HL has been in a downward spiral ever since. Is the MVC commissioner any less of a moron?
I see little benefit in joining a 10 team MVC. Sorry. If they invite us and promise future expansion I would answer that we need to see the future NOW. 12 teams or nothing and I wouldn't rule out 14. I don't want to be rescued from one sinking ship by another that is taking on water.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 08, 2017, 10:58:42 AM
You guys shouldn't read too much into the MVC forum discussion. I think the nay-sayers have drowned out the rational people at this point. I think a majority of fans would be happy with this move, there are always gonna be the displeased coming to the forums to spew their arguments. I agree that it would be silly to say anyone but us has done better than you guys in the last few years.
That being said, your expectation to come in and rise to the top immediately may be a bit optimistic. Genuine question: Is your team gonna be improving next year or taking a step back?
You guys lost 4 Horizon league games last year and then against Mke in the tourney. It would be impossible to argue that 4 losses in your league wouldn't translate into a few more losses in Valley play. That still puts you around the top 3 because of how below average accross the board the Valley was last year. This year, Bradley, Loyola, Missouri State, (hopefully UNI, maybe not), and maybe some others will be taking steps up in talent.
I'm not saying you won't be competitive or maybe even have a shot at success, but your road wouldn't be getting easier than last years. If you want to stay in the Horizon and never open up your ability to really grow as a program just because a few people have their doubts, then so be it.
Points well recvd, we have to get lucky to be Top3 next year in MVC. A lot of young moving parts. We'd need to gel earlier than a young team traditionally does, but it's not inconceivable to go .500 in a first year in a new conference with 70% unproven talent.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 08, 2017, 10:58:42 AM
You guys shouldn't read too much into the MVC forum discussion. I think the nay-sayers have drowned out the rational people at this point. I think a majority of fans would be happy with this move, there are always gonna be the displeased coming to the forums to spew their arguments. I agree that it would be silly to say anyone but us has done better than you guys in the last few years.
That being said, your expectation to come in and rise to the top immediately may be a bit optimistic. Genuine question: Is your team gonna be improving next year or taking a step back?
You guys lost 4 Horizon league games last year and then against Mke in the tourney. It would be impossible to argue that 4 losses in your league wouldn't translate into a few more losses in Valley play. That still puts you around the top 3 because of how below average accross the board the Valley was last year. This year, Bradley, Loyola, Missouri State, (hopefully UNI, maybe not), and maybe some others will be taking steps up in talent.
I'm not saying you won't be competitive or maybe even have a shot at success, but your road wouldn't be getting easier than last years. If you want to stay in the Horizon and never open up your ability to really grow as a program just because a few people have their doubts, then so be it.
I wouldn't read too much into predictions of quick dominance either. We would have some adjusting to do, but no more than we did for the HL. I feel we have a great nucleus and a good coach and that the expected fall-off in performance this season in the HL would be about 1 or 2 spots, but with lots of upside potentiality. In the MVC it could go many ways, especially depending on whether 3 teams are added or just us, but I don't see us being an anchor on the league.
I will say this; I'm surprised nobody is talking about the idea that the MVC would be significantly better than it was with WSU if they do succeed in adding Valpo, Murray State, and Belmont. It would be a hell of a conference.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 08, 2017, 10:58:42 AM
You guys shouldn't read too much into the MVC forum discussion. I think the nay-sayers have drowned out the rational people at this point. I think a majority of fans would be happy with this move, there are always gonna be the displeased coming to the forums to spew their arguments. I agree that it would be silly to say anyone but us has done better than you guys in the last few years.
That being said, your expectation to come in and rise to the top immediately may be a bit optimistic. Genuine question: Is your team gonna be improving next year or taking a step back?
You guys lost 4 Horizon league games last year and then against Mke in the tourney. It would be impossible to argue that 4 losses in your league wouldn't translate into a few more losses in Valley play. That still puts you around the top 3 because of how below average accross the board the Valley was last year. This year, Bradley, Loyola, Missouri State, (hopefully UNI, maybe not), and maybe some others will be taking steps up in talent.
I'm not saying you won't be competitive or maybe even have a shot at success, but your road wouldn't be getting easier than last years. If you want to stay in the Horizon and never open up your ability to really grow as a program just because a few people have their doubts, then so be it.
Here's the difference between HL fans and MVC fans. The day Butler left we had enough self awareness to know that we weren't the same conference we were 24 hours before. Then, when we started hearing rumors about Oakland possibly joining the HL, no one - and I mean no one - on any HL board started picking at Oakland's accomplishments, or attributing their success to 1 player, or trashing their small gym, or criticizing that they're weren't as good as Butler (dah!). We didn't make their fans feel like they had to defend their image and reputation, or tell them "you might find success over here in time." Nor did we turn Oakland fans enthused about the prospects of joining the HL into HL haters in a matter of 2 days of arrogant, condescending, critical, childish comments and comparisons.
Good luck to your conference going forward.
In terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit. If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?
I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league. NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.
Again, I can certainly see why the MVC would want to have Valpo in their league, but while the MVC might be a better league than the Horizon, I don't know if I'd say it's necessarily a better situation for Valpo (from the outside looking in).
Also, "the MVC with Murray State, Belmont and Valpo would be better than it was with WSU", IMO, it wouldn't be better than it was with Wichita State. With the Shockers, it was pretty much a guarantee that if someone other than WSU won the conference tournament, the MVC would get 2 bids. While all 3 programs can be very solid to good, none of them have earned an at-large bid in the last 15 years.
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 08, 2017, 12:19:41 PMIn terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit. If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?
I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league. NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.
I totally agree on NKU and Oakland. Both were no brainers. Thus LeCrone was fully qualified to recommend them.
Quote from: justducky on April 08, 2017, 12:32:43 PM
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 08, 2017, 12:19:41 PMIn terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit. If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?
I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league. NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.
I totally agree on NKU and Oakland. Both were no brainers. Thus LeCrone was fully qualified to recommend them.
You still have to recognize a no-brainer when you see it. That's more than be said for Doug Elgin 4 years ago.
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 08, 2017, 12:19:41 PM
Also, "the MVC with Murray State, Belmont and Valpo would be better than it was with WSU", IMO, it wouldn't be better than it was with Wichita State. With the Shockers, it was pretty much a guarantee that if someone other than WSU won the conference tournament, the MVC would get 2 bids. While all 3 programs can be very solid to good, none of them have earned an at-large bid in the last 15 years.
It all depends on how you define "better conference." An MVC that includes Valpo, Belmont, and Murray State would be wildly entertaining to watch. It is also unlikely to be a multi-bid league with any regularity.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Some folks are wildly overthinking this. If you had to put your own paycheck down on one of these conferences still being around and strong in ten years, which one would be the smarter bet? There ya go. We've seen the status quo in the HL and it's not pretty.
(And with all due respect to Paul, who is the best local college beat writer in the damn country as far as I'm concerned, the notion that VU should let the pre-game alumni reception attendance in the various conference locales have any sway in this decision is, for lack of a better term, nuts. If it's really that big of a deal, nothing's stopping us from continuing to schedule non-conference games in those cities regularly after a move. And if it's a big-shot donor, well, VU's development staff should be making special trips to meet with those folks anyway).
Quote from: wh on April 08, 2017, 01:01:18 PM
Quote from: justducky on April 08, 2017, 12:32:43 PM
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 08, 2017, 12:19:41 PMIn terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit. If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?
I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league. NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.
I totally agree on NKU and Oakland. Both were no brainers. Thus LeCrone was fully qualified to recommend them.
You still have to recognize a no-brainer when you see it. That's more than be said for Doug Elgin 4 years ago.
In either a 10, 12, or 14 team MVC Loyola would likely be our travel partner. :'( My first brief looks at Elgin (isn't that a fossil outboard motor company?) suggests that he and LeCrone might be twins who were separated at birth. If he is an improvement over LeCrone would somebody please step forward and make that case.
QuoteJust because a conference is formed doesn't mean it immediately receives an automatic bid into the NCAA Tournament.
I love the idea of gaming the system, the problem is the NCAA could easily place a moratorium on the formation of new conferences. At a minimum, you'd be asking all the teams joining any new league to go 2-3 years without the possibility of an NCAA bid while the probationary period for new league is in effect. Tough sell. (Remember, VU should have had one more auto bid to the tourney on its history, but the NCAA took away the old Mid-Con's auto bid for one year back in 1995 when the membership turned over. Valpo won the conference tourney and would've gone dancing otherwise).
It is a great question to ask which conference is setup for long-term success and longevity. I very much think that is the MVC, and not the HL. The MVC is the pinnacle of conferences for us. We won't ever be in the A-10 or Big East, and unless a Midwestern private school conference forms, we would be in our home for many years to come.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 08, 2017, 10:58:42 AM
You guys shouldn't read too much into the MVC forum discussion. I think the nay-sayers have drowned out the rational people at this point. I think a majority of fans would be happy with this move, there are always gonna be the displeased coming to the forums to spew their arguments. I agree that it would be silly to say anyone but us has done better than you guys in the last few years.
That being said, your expectation to come in and rise to the top immediately may be a bit optimistic. Genuine question: Is your team gonna be improving next year or taking a step back?
You guys lost 4 Horizon league games last year and then against Mke in the tourney. It would be impossible to argue that 4 losses in your league wouldn't translate into a few more losses in Valley play. That still puts you around the top 3 because of how below average accross the board the Valley was last year. This year, Bradley, Loyola, Missouri State, (hopefully UNI, maybe not), and maybe some others will be taking steps up in talent.
I'm not saying you won't be competitive or maybe even have a shot at success, but your road wouldn't be getting easier than last years. If you want to stay in the Horizon and never open up your ability to really grow as a program just because a few people have their doubts, then so be it.
As stated by others, next year's team will be hard to predict. Last year, all the losses were without one our best post players. The last two losses were without our All American.
So next year our two seven footers won't be freshman any longer. We are adding players from Oklahoma State and Nebraska as well as a highly regarded JUCO. Our new guys are "way" more athletic than the guys we are losing for the most part. How does that translate to wins? Who knows...
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 08, 2017, 01:50:27 PM
Some folks are wildly overthinking this. If you had to put your own paycheck down on one of these conferences still being around and strong in ten years, which one would be the smarter bet? There ya go. We've seen the status quo in the HL and it's not pretty.
(And with all due respect to Paul, who is the best local college beat writer in the damn country as far as I'm concerned, the notion that VU should let the pre-game alumni reception attendance in the various conference locales have any sway in this decision is, for lack of a better term, nuts. If it's really that big of a deal, nothing's stopping us from continuing to schedule non-conference games in those cities regularly after a move. And if it's a big-shot donor, well, VU's development staff should be making special trips to meet with those folks anyway).
I get what you are saying here but it's not that easy to predict, IMO. Would you have put money down on the Mid-Con dissolving in 1994 when only Valpo, Western Illinois and Youngstown State were left after the mass exodus? Or, if someone told you to bet the house ten years ago on whether an established football conference like the WAC would be so decimated that it would have to give up football, would you have put your money down? How about the SWC? Bet the house in 1986 that it only had ten years left after being around since 1916? I agree with you that the the MVC looks stronger longer term than the HL, but then again how much would you have wagered 15 years ago that the old BIG EAST was going to split into separate conferences because of football with all of the other realignment shifts taking place (i.e. Miami, BC and VT to the ACC) at that time? The MVC, potentially could run down that path too. The truth is no one really knows who is more stable right now.
Here's my logic. The MVC has many schools like us: Drake, Bradley, Evansville, and do to some degree Loyola. If the stuff hits the fan in D-1 financing, Valpo would have a core of like schools in the same boat, much like the football team was able to do in forming the Pioneer non-scholarship league.
When Butler and Loyola were in the Horizon, our other sports got nice short travel games. Now you have Oakland and NKU, which are further than Bradley and Illinois State. Evansville perhaps too. As I mentioned, the Horizon has shifted now to have six of 10 teams located in Ohio and Michigan metro areas (NKU is Cincinatti). I see the Horizon tournament staying in Detroit for five years or going to Cleveland if another site gets a shot.
The St. Louis MVC hoops tourney, "Arch Madness" has a great history of attendance and excitement. It can become the Valpo season pinnacle for fans each year whether we win the title and NCAA bid or not. In St. Louis, you could get a high likelihood of seeing 2 or 3 sudden death games every year in a Thurs-Sun format in a nicer downtown and city.
But point #1 is staying with similar schools in future conference merry go round scenarios (Bradley, Evansville, Drake) is biggest factor
Quote from: justducky on April 08, 2017, 01:54:26 PM
Quote from: wh on April 08, 2017, 01:01:18 PM
Quote from: justducky on April 08, 2017, 12:32:43 PM
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 08, 2017, 12:19:41 PMIn terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit. If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?
I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league. NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.
I totally agree on NKU and Oakland. Both were no brainers. Thus LeCrone was fully qualified to recommend them.
You still have to recognize a no-brainer when you see it. That's more than be said for Doug Elgin 4 years ago.
In either a 10, 12, or 14 team MVC Loyola would likely be our travel partner. :'( My first brief looks at Elgin (isn't that a fossil outboard motor company?) suggests that he and LeCrone might be twins who were separated at birth. If he is an improvement over LeCrone would somebody please step forward and make that case.
LeCrone and Doug Elgin are legitimately very close friends. They have very similar thoughts on strategy from what I've heard. Only difference is that LeCrone is much more quick to make brash moves that often are not well thought out. It will be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out. Elgin stealing one of (if not) the premier programs from his best friends league.
If President Heckler/Mark Labarbera letting the Milwaukee/Detroit Alumni have a large say in the conference then that would be ridiculous. Just frequently schedule UWM and Detroit-Mercy or OU to keep them happy. It's really not that far of a drive from MKE to Valpo (not mention they could drive south for an hour and see Valpo play Loyola in Chicago). Detroit/Michigan alumni could still make a weekend trip to see Valpo play.
Unless one of the MKE/Detroit alumni write a massive check for an ARC renovation then I don't think they should have that much pull in deciding which conference we are in. Every game is on TV/Streamable these days also. We can schedule schools in the area for OOC if we want. I'm sure MKE/GB/OU/Detroit-Mercy fan would love seeing Valpo at their places if we left for the MVC. In fact a bunch OU fans are already smack talking that Valpo won't schedule them if we leave because we are too "chicken". Even though we did schedule OU when they were still in the Summit and beat them many times...
Take Wichita State out of the equation, and the MVC drops from 12th to 15th in conference RPI. A difference of 3 places among single bid leagues has no statistical significance.
Let's not kid ourselves. This is not your Dad's MVC. A Creighton-less Wichita State-less MVC is a mere shadow of its former self. There may be other reasons to consider the MVC, but purely from a men's bb perspective this is a lateral move - nothing more.
As to a recruiting advantage, maybe - before the reality of next year's conference decline sets in. The more important question is will the remaining MVC teams still attract the same quality of recruits when the "new reality" sets in for them?
This reminds me of looking for a better used car, only to find that the more you test drive it and look under the hood you realize it's no better than the one you have.
Four observations from looking at all the posts since the Friday announcement:
1) The posters on the MVC fanboard do not make the decision as to who does or does not get a bid to replace WSU. Stop getting agitated over a few negative responses over there. Listen, with all our howling about Valpo stuff, do you think the VU leadership immediately consults our posts when making decisions? Thicken your skin guys. The UNI poster and the EU and ISU posters told you as much. By overreacting to every little slight, we give those bozos more fodder for their negativism.
2) Pomposity seen on the MVC board is no different from our own on ours. Sometimes I look at the content of some of our strings and wonder how some of what we say isn't also interpreted as Valpo arrogance. Let's face it. We inherited the Butler arrogance when the Bulldogs skipped town. That created a vacuum and we filled it (quite well I might add).
3) The absence of VU alumni support at away games that is cited as a possible reason to not make the move is a dumb argument. Today, if we get a hundred alumni out for an away game that is a bonus. We don't travel as well as we used to -- the travelers are getting grayer. Even our silver haired supporters (include me in that group except I don't have any hair) find it easier to watch the tube or stream games. The MVC ups that techno ante in spades. It also ups the frequency of mentions on the ESPN crawler, believe it or not. Yes, we want to expose potential donors to the Valpo brand, but in HL cities it's close to preaching to the choir. The MVC, if we are invited and accept, opens new locations to spread the brand. But more importantly it brings Valpo to new potential applicants (every game runs a Valpo recruiting video at least a couple of times).
4) Does anyone know how many times Valparaiso or Valpo has been mentioned in the media over the last week. Holy cow, we have been blessed with brand recognition big-time. Imagine if (when -- written with fingers hopefully crossed) we did get a bid. The exposure has been incredible and will even get better.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 08, 2017, 04:20:00 PMIn either a 10, 12, or 14 team MVC Loyola would likely be our travel partner. My first brief looks at Elgin (isn't that a fossil outboard motor company?) suggests that he and LeCrone might be twins who were separated at birth. If he is an improvement over LeCrone would somebody please step forward and make that case.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 08, 2017, 04:20:00 PMLeCrone and Doug Elgin are legitimately very close friends. They have very similar thoughts on strategy from what I've heard.
If you are trying to argue that Doug Elgin is an improvement then I would not have led with your Forest Gump-like "two peas in a pod" comment. :) How come these two "legitimately very close friends" couldn't twist enough arms to get VU over the top in 2016 and Illinois St over the top in 2017? Might it have been just too big a job for them? Even going back to the HL Butler days what did these two conferences ever do to help one another? Time for some new blood on both fronts.
Quote from: wh on April 08, 2017, 05:47:19 PMThis is not your Dad's MVC. A Creighton-less Wichita State-less MVC is a mere shadow of its former self. There may be other reasons to consider the MVC, but purely from a men's bb perspective this is a lateral move - nothing more.
As to a recruiting advantage, maybe - before the reality of next year's decline sets in. The more important question is will the remaining MVC teams still attract the same quality of recruits when the "new reality" sets in for them?
We have the unique advantage of having experienced all of this already. I too fooled myself into believing that the HL would only fall off marginally with Butler leaving. Boy was I wrong! :o Our crowds diminished, our TV exposure fell, our top recruits went elsewhere, and our upper class studs have been jumping ship at a frightening pace. The MVC needs to fully realize that this is their future without some BOLD moves.
Quote from: justducky on April 08, 2017, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 08, 2017, 04:20:00 PMIn either a 10, 12, or 14 team MVC Loyola would likely be our travel partner. My first brief looks at Elgin (isn't that a fossil outboard motor company?) suggests that he and LeCrone might be twins who were separated at birth. If he is an improvement over LeCrone would somebody please step forward and make that case.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 08, 2017, 04:20:00 PMLeCrone and Doug Elgin are legitimately very close friends. They have very similar thoughts on strategy from what I've heard.
If you are trying to argue that Doug Elgin is an improvement then I would not have led with your Forest Gump-like "two peas in a pod" comment. :) How come these two "legitimately very close friends" couldn't twist enough arms to get VU over the top in 2016 and Illinois St over the top in 2017? Might it have been just too big a job for them? Even going back to the HL Butler days what did these two conferences ever do to help one another? Time for some new blood on both fronts.
Quote from: wh on April 08, 2017, 05:47:19 PMThis is not your Dad's MVC. A Creighton-less Wichita State-less MVC is a mere shadow of its former self. There may be other reasons to consider the MVC, but purely from a men's bb perspective this is a lateral move - nothing more.
As to a recruiting advantage, maybe - before the reality of next year's decline sets in. The more important question is will the remaining MVC teams still attract the same quality of recruits when the "new reality" sets in for them?
We have the unique advantage of having experienced all of this already. I too fooled myself into believing that the HL would only fall off marginally with Butler leaving. Boy was I wrong! :o Our crowds diminished, our TV exposure fell, our top recruits went elsewhere, and our upper class studs have been jumping ship at a frightening pace. The MVC needs to fully realize that this is their future without some BOLD moves.
Huh? Alex Peters, Jubril Adekoya et al came in two years after Butler last played us. Now we have brought in guys like J, Derrik, Joe and Bakari. We did lose Brandon to transfer and now a second stringer in Lexus. Did I miss something?
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 08, 2017, 06:22:59 PM
Four observations from looking at all the posts since the Friday announcement:
1) The posters on the MVC fanboard do not make the decision as to who does or does not get a bid to replace WSU. Stop getting agitated over a few negative responses over there. Listen, with all our howling about Valpo stuff, do you think the VU leadership immediately consults our posts when making decisions? Thicken your skin guys. The UNI poster and the EU and ISU posters told you as much. By overreacting to every little slight, we give those bozos more fodder for their negativism.
2) Pomposity seen on the MVC board is no different from our own on ours. Sometimes I look at the content of some of our strings and wonder how some of what we say isn't also interpreted as Valpo arrogance. Let's face it. We inherited the Butler arrogance when the Bulldogs skipped town. That created a vacuum and we filled it (quite well I might add).
3) The absence of VU alumni support at away games that is cited as a possible reason to not make the move is a dumb argument. Today, if we get a hundred alumni out for an away game that is a bonus. We don't travel as well as we used to -- the travelers are getting grayer. Even our silver haired supporters (include me in that group except I don't have any hair) find it easier to watch the tube or stream games. The MVC ups that techno ante in spades. It also ups the frequency of mentions on the ESPN crawler, believe it or not. Yes, we want to expose potential donors to the Valpo brand, but in HL cities it's close to preaching to the choir. The MVC, if we are invited and accept, opens new locations to spread the brand. But more importantly it brings Valpo to new potential applicants (every game runs a Valpo recruiting video at least a couple of times).
4) Does anyone know how many times Valparaiso or Valpo has been mentioned in the media over the last week. Holy cow, we have been blessed with brand recognition big-time. Imagine if (when -- written with fingers hopefully crossed) we did get a bid. The exposure has been incredible and will even get better.
Very well said VULB#62. We may have inherited some of Butler Fans arrogance but we are still not quite on that level. I only had the "joy" of sharing a conference with the Butler fans for 2 seasons and they were something else. I went to 2 games at 'Hinkle Fieldhouse' and I remember walking into the arena wearing my Valpo Gear and Butler fans giving me looks as if I was unworthy to brief the same air as them. Just complete smugness.
To be fair I think mine and all of our heads would get pretty big too if we went to 2 National Title games (but maybe less then them though). If we do leave the Horizon for the MVC, I think Oakland fans would fill the void quite nicely. They already are trending that way after sharing a regular season title with a banged up Valpo squad (and never having won a MCM game in their own hometown).
Quote from: vu72 on April 08, 2017, 07:22:23 PMHuh? Alex Peters, Jubril Adekoya et al came in two years after Butler last played us. Now we have brought in guys like J, Derrik, Joe and Bakari. We did lose Brandon to transfer and now a second stringer in Lexus. Did I miss something?
Yes but my apologies anyway. I thought it should be obvious that my reference to "our" crowds, TV exposure, top recruits, and upper class studs would be interpreted as a general post Butler HL condition that the MVC will likely duplicate. Much like us I suspect that the MVC will be several years into the decline before they fully realize that it is almost impossible to just tread water.
Quote from: wh on April 08, 2017, 05:47:19 PM
Take Wichita State out of the equation, and the MVC drops from 12th to 15th in conference RPI. A difference of 3 places among single bid leagues has no statistical significance.
Let's not kid ourselves. This is not your Dad's MVC. A Creighton-less Wichita State-less MVC is a mere shadow of its former self. There may be other reasons to consider the MVC, but purely from a men's bb perspective this is a lateral move - nothing more.
As to a recruiting advantage, maybe - before the reality of next year's conference decline sets in. The more important question is will the remaining MVC teams still attract the same quality of recruits when the "new reality" sets in for them?
This reminds me of looking for a better used car, only to find that the more you test drive it and look under the hood you realize it's no better than the one you have.
KenPom came out with Projections of Conference strength and MVC came out at 10 (without Wichita State). Still a strong MidMajor conference but there is no Wichita State, Dayton, VCU, etc. MidMajor Powerhouse in it anymore. Not the same but still a pretty strong MidMajor Conf but a step below the MW and A10.
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/850389750313701376
Longtime Bradley fan here... FWIW... I (and many many more) Braves and Valley fans would love to have you guys in the league! Also, I would ignore the MVC board chatter. It is not representative at all. Much respect to Valpo as a QUALITY basketball school. Looking forward to hopefully welcoming you guys to the Valley!
Quote from: BravesFan on April 08, 2017, 08:45:02 PM
Longtime Bradley fan here... FWIW... I (and many many more) Braves and Valley fans would love to have you guys in the league! Also, I would ignore the MVC board chatter. It is not representative at all. Much respect to Valpo as a QUALITY basketball school. Looking forward to hopefully welcoming you guys to the Valley!
Add a Bradley post to our forum about not getting agitated over some negative vibes on the MVC board. That'll always happen. Thanks for the recalibration Bravesfan.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 08, 2017, 08:29:44 PM
KenPom came out with Projections of Conference strength and MVC came out at 10 (without Wichita State). Still a strong MidMajor conference but there is no Wichita State, Dayton, VCU, etc. MidMajor Powerhouse in it anymore. Not the same but still a pretty strong MidMajor Conf but a step below the MW and A10.
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/850389750313701376
I certainly could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if he's already coming out with predictions for 2018 already since some of that is based on the highly rated recruits and where they wind up at, which has yet to be decided. My guess is those were his projections heading into the 2017 campaign for the conferences.
However, even without any additions, the MVC would have been the 10th rated league after taking out Wichita State last season. If you add Murray State and Valpo, the league's rating would be slightly better than it is after removing Wichita State.
Wichate State perspective on the MVC: Athletic Department budget cuts, declining student enrollment, etc.:
Missouri Valley schools deal with budget cuts across campus lines
http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article138677778.html
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 08, 2017, 10:32:03 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 08, 2017, 08:29:44 PM
KenPom came out with Projections of Conference strength and MVC came out at 10 (without Wichita State). Still a strong MidMajor conference but there is no Wichita State, Dayton, VCU, etc. MidMajor Powerhouse in it anymore. Not the same but still a pretty strong MidMajor Conf but a step below the MW and A10.
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/850389750313701376
I certainly could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if he's already coming out with predictions for 2018 already since some of that is based on the highly rated recruits and where they wind up at, which has yet to be decided. My guess is those were his projections heading into the 2017 campaign for the conferences.
However, even without any additions, the MVC would have been the 10th rated league after taking out Wichita State last season. If you add Murray State and Valpo, the league's rating would be slightly better than it is after removing Wichita State.
https://twitter.com/Catch_N_Shoot/status/850413756500889601
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850414645227683840
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/850432767674339328
The AAC has indicated that they will not be going to divisions. Just a straight up 22-game conference schedule. The HL and the MVC need to follow suit - 12-team leagues, 22-game conference schedule. Quality OOC scheduling for mid majors is becoming impossible without it.
Quote from: wh on April 09, 2017, 11:31:26 AM
The AAC has indicated that they will not be going to divisions. Just a straight up 22-game conference schedule. The HL and the MVC need to follow suit - 12-team leagues, 22-game conference schedule. Quality OOC scheduling for mid majors is becoming impossible without it.
The problem with going to 12 teams in conferences is that there becomes to many cooks in the kitchen. It makes sense to want to grab the best teams possible while they are out there from a competitive standpoint but you really hurt your schools ability to schedule certain out of conference opponents. Personally like the 10 team conferences but I understand the strategy of 12. If the Horizon or MVC were to go 12 then it would NEED to be the right teams added.
LeCrone apparently covets Omaha and has interest in Denver. My cousin who lives in Denver is a pretty big hoops fan and I asked him what the average fan interest in University of Denver hoops is and he said he's never seen them on TV or mentioned on local TV Broadcasts, and never really has seen them featured in the local papers. There is just so many other sports to follow in Denver that UD hoops gets absolutely zero oxygen. Plus I'm not a fan of adding a team that far away from the rest of the conference. They are not that great at hoops either.
Denver is primarily a hockey school.
I would say so. Last night they beat Minn-Duluth 3-2 for the NCAA Frozen Four championship. National Champs!
Anybody know when the emergency MVC leadership meeting is scheduled to end?
Early rumblings of the emergency MVC meeting today...
https://twitter.com/CoryCurtis2/status/851100915121737728
https://twitter.com/CoryCurtis2/status/851101033682087940
https://twitter.com/BettsSportsBeat/status/851132174539653120
Just a thought for VU2014. It is nice to have a Valpo fan on twitter keeping up with everything and asking lots of questions to potential sources. However, the combination of your Twitter name "Valpo_Hoops" and your logo, which is the official crusader logo, might be a bit much. Makes it look like you are a representative of the University in some form when you are not.
I would change the logo. People need to know that you are a fan and in no way have a relationship with the University. Right now I could see people getting confused. Just my opinion.
I would say that if we aren't added this go-around with the MVC, then we need to close the door on leaving for the MVC in the future. If they only take Belmont, they will have demonstrated that they only care about adding schools based in a large city. Belmont has been pretty good over the last 10 years, but they do not have any following, whatsoever.
You could say that Belmont is the Loyola of Nashville, especially with all the Tennessee and Vanderbilt fans. Except that Belmont has better basketball than Loyola.
If the Belmont rumor pans out, I will not be surprised to learn that we withdrew our name from consideration.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on April 09, 2017, 01:32:48 PM
Just a thought for VU2014. It is nice to have a Valpo fan on twitter keeping up with everything and asking lots of questions to potential sources. However, the combination of your Twitter name "Valpo_Hoops" and your logo, which is the official crusader logo, might be a bit much. Makes it look like you are a representative of the University in some form when you are not.
I would change the logo. People need to know that you are a fan and in no way have a relationship with the University. Right now I could see people getting confused. Just my opinion.
Like your contributions a lot VU2014, and I agree. I made this remark to Mick that you do great for the forum. But I was concerned that recruits that don't know you could mistake you for a representative of the university.
Keep up the awesome contributions!
I appreciate his insight for sure but I honestly thought his twitter was affiliated with the actual university and/or vu basketball team. I consider myself a pretty big fan so I'm sure many others think that as well.
I hope we get the invite but I'm not going to hold my breath on it.
It should also be pointed out that Cory Curtis is a reporter in Nashville, and everyone already knows that Belmont is of interest to the MVC. Therefore, he really isn't saying anything specific to today's meeting, other than the fact that everyone in the world knew that they would be discussed.
I can confidently say that he probably has no inside information. If you look at his continued posts afterwards, he talks about how Saint Louis would strongly be considered and is a good market. This guy has no clue over anyone else.
The MVC meeting has ended and we wait for leaks of information. One earlier rumor suggested the MVC might not add anyone this year. However, the Missouri State President says following the meeting: "There are exciting days ahead for the Missouri Valley." I can't imagine him saying that if they were simply staying at 9 teams.
So no conclusions?
It is going to be a several week process, I would imagine. I wasn't expecting an announcement this week. They have dozens of schools that have expressed interest, and will take their visits.
Apparently not a no-brainer like the AAC where the obvious was obviously confirmed obvoiusly by both parties the same day.
I find the MVC approach curious. The MVC knew WSU was leaving and that it was a slam dunk that the AAC would invite them and they would accept. Why weren't the ducks lined up in anticipation of this event? The MVC commissioner's office I think would have already contacted potential candidates and briefed them on the possible votes by the presidents and ADs, no?
~ No replacement -- IMO a HL move that would result in a loss of all momentum for achieving a score.
~ One replacement -- also a HL move that would dig a hole that they would need to dig out of
~ Two replacements -- and a very long conference schedule that still involves their lower rated members
~ Three replacements -- shoring up the overall conference RPI
We are talking academia, not business. In academia you have to have your martinis and enjoy the mahogany trim in the office,then talk about irrelevant stuff, then discuss the issue, then propose more campus buildings for safe space, then maybe reach a decision.
A business environment is more efficient. If a university were defined as a business it would upset shareholders and fail.
[tweet]851239415267635200[/tweet]
Quote from: valpopal on April 09, 2017, 08:48:47 PM
[tweet]851239415267635200[/tweet]
This is of course a guess, but no decision today may mean multiple team invite. Or it may be as mentioned before that it's a slow process.
I still believe that we are better off only in a multiple team addition scenario. Otherwise stay the course in the HL.
Dave Reynolds stated that UE would be announcing within a week a move back to the Horizon.
That was about 4 years ago..............................
Wouldn't read too much into anything he tweets.
Quote from: E-Villan on April 09, 2017, 11:00:55 PM
Dave Reynolds stated that UE would be announcing within a week a move back to the Horizon.
[Edit: BUT] That was about 4 years ago..............................
Wouldn't read too much into anything he tweets.
This got me thinking (even though it was 4 years ago). Here's a bit of an imaginary conundrum for Valpo.
WHAT IF..... the HL announces the addition of two new, well-qualified (<150 RPI, within the HL footprint, etc.) members BEFORE the MVC completes their due diligence? What would we do? Can't ever imagine LeCrone pulling that off (and I certainly don't even have a guess which two schools would even fit into that scenario), but it sure would make for an interesting quandary, wouldn't it?
Now I hope we join the MVC just for some back and forth with E-Villan. I like that level of snark. :thumbsup:
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 10, 2017, 09:38:51 AM
WHAT IF..... the HL announces the addition of two new, well-qualified (<150 RPI, within the HL footprint, etc.) members BEFORE the MVC completes their due diligence? What would we do? Can't ever imagine LeCrone pulling that off (and I certainly don't even have a guess which two schools would even fit into that scenario), but it sure would make for an interesting quandary, wouldn't it?
It's an interesting thought experiment for sure, but one without many good answers. The absolute perfect solution would be Murray State and Belmont, but we've been saying that since the league was down to 8. Since it didn't work then, I can't imagine it now seeing as how the HL's standing has declined since then.
Robert Morris in Pittsburgh was intriguing a couple of years ago (perhaps paired with one of the private, Buffalo schools) but the bloom seems to be off the rose after consecutive rough seasons.
None of the top tier Summit schools are worth it as far as I'm concerned, and we certainly want nothing to do with IUPUI (or UMKC - WAC, but the point stands).
An intriguing possibility is an MVC raid to land a pair of public (InSt, IlSt,UNI) or private (E'Ville,Loyola,Drake) schools spooked by Wichita's exit. There are dozens of reasons why this Durant happen, not the least of which are the HL's lack of media money/exposure, cache, and leadership needed to pull off anything that bold.
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InSt, IlSt,UNI or private E'Ville,Loyola,Drake are not at all interested in playing in motor city madness. That alone is enough to keep them away from the HL.
Did the leak just before the MVC meeting about Valpo playing Northwestern next year help its case for the MVC leadership and in selling Valpo to MVC fans, or was that just a coincidence. ::)
With this forum so quiet regarding the MVC thing and a lack of info coming from any of the principals potentially involved just adding to the intrigue, I wonder if it means that there is something going on regarding a potential move for us.
Quote from: valpopal on April 10, 2017, 10:52:52 AM
Did the leak just before the MVC meeting about Valpo playing Northwestern next year help its case for the MVC leadership and in selling Valpo to MVC fans, or was that just a coincidence. ::)
Either way, it couldn't hurt our attractiveness much ya think?
Changed the Twitter Account Name to 'Valpo Hoops Fan' :thumbsup:
I am really surprised that we haven't heard/seen a leak yet. They are actually keeping the lid on this thing.
Is there a deadline for a Valpo decision on whether to join or not if invited? Id imagine the MVC would want a team for next season in MBB already....but id imagine a switch would start for the fall sports? Are fall sports schedules planned already or how far in advance?
Volleyball - no schedule posted yet
Football - 2017 posted but N/A for MVC
MSO - Not posted yet (but OOC games open the schedule and then we drop into conference play. There are fewer MVC schools playing men's' soccer so more OOC will be needed
WSO - Not posted yet (but OOC games open the schedule and then we drop into conference play. There are fewer MVC schools playing men's' soccer so more OOC will be needed
MCC & WCC - CC runs at different invitationals all Fall and then runs in the conference championship meet near the end. Should not be as issue
MT & WT - Fall season and a spring season. Few dual matches -- big match is the conference match in the spring
Mg & WG - Fall season and a spring season. Few dual matches -- big match is the conference match in the spring
Doesn't look like much would need to be changed if a change in conference happens.
Most conferences have a graduated exit fee structure, i.e., the shorter the notice the higher the fee. The A-10 imposes a $2 million fee if the notice is less than 12 months, the fee is less with greater notice. In other words, most colleges can exit their league affiliation rather quickly, but it typically comes at a high financial cost. Not sure what the exit penalty is for the Horizon, but here is some info on a few of the majors:
ACC: School must notify conference at least ten months in advance and pay three years' worth of conference distributions (roughly $50 million).
Big 12: School must notify conference at least 24 months in advance and pay one years' worth of conference distributions (roughly $19 million). Schools can accelerate their exits, but they must pay more to do so: notification prior to 18 months increases exit fee by 40%, prior to 12 months increases fee by 60%, prior to six months by 80% and within six months doubles the fee. Conference also has grant of media rights through 2024-25.
Big East: School must notify conference at least 27 months in advance and pay $5 million. Schools can accelerate their exits, but they must pay more to do so: an immediate exit cost West Virginia an additional $15 million; leaving one year earlier cost Pittsburgh and Syracuse an extra $2.5 million each.
I bet they offer Belmont the spot, Belmont turns it down, and they stay at 9 for the short term and do not add anyone this coming season.
Solid fact filled article on attendance, budgets and detriments that Belmont saw in declining the offer prior.
http://www.kxel.com/panthers/2017/04/10/reports-mvc-interested-in-belmont-valparaiso-murray-state-after-wsu-departure (http://www.kxel.com/panthers/2017/04/10/reports-mvc-interested-in-belmont-valparaiso-murray-state-after-wsu-departure)
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 10, 2017, 07:56:04 PM
Solid fact filled article on attendance, budgets and detriments that Belmont saw in declining the offer prior.
http://www.kxel.com/panthers/2017/04/10/reports-mvc-interested-in-belmont-valparaiso-murray-state-after-wsu-departure (http://www.kxel.com/panthers/2017/04/10/reports-mvc-interested-in-belmont-valparaiso-murray-state-after-wsu-departure)
Good Article.
"Valparaiso operates with a $2.66 million basketball budget, has averaged 25.2 wins the past five years and has an average attendance of 3,572.
Valpo is a good fit geographically but would likely need to make promises to the Valley that they will upgrade their facilities in the near future."
Yeah that most likely won't be happening under President Heckler unfortunately... They've had 4 yrs to do something and haven't done anything but kick the tire down the road. But to honest I don't understand why it would be a deal breaker for the MVC. The seating capacity is in line with some MVC schools and Valpo has a pretty good track record of attendance when we aren't playing the same old garbage HL teams that come through the ARC. And the genius's in the Horizon League Offices manage to schedule Oakland on Spring Breaks or when the student off of campus...
Pretty interesting to see other regions sites (covering MVC schools) pointing out the facilities possibly being an issue with a MVC invite. Is this just a writer spitting out an old narrative or did they actually hear from a source that it could be a sticking point on an invite. I just don't see President Heckler committing to ARC improvement on the dotted line.
Quote from: Chairback on April 10, 2017, 07:29:17 PM
I bet they offer Belmont the spot, Belmont turns it down, and they stay at 9 for the short term and do not add anyone this coming season.
Would be unfortunate for the MVC. Personally think they'd be making the wrong move. Better to do it now rather then later. Especially if the HL starts to project better next season. HL is also in talks about expansion with Omaha and a few other schools like Denver. May not be the best time to sit on their hands in this type of environment.
Quote from: Chairback on April 10, 2017, 07:29:17 PM
I bet they offer Belmont the spot, Belmont turns it down, and they stay at 9 for the short term and do not add anyone this coming season.
I agree with an earlier poster who said if they only offer 1, I hope it's somebody else, or if it's Valpo we turn them down. The impact of losing their top 2 programs, adding a struggling program, along with widespread enrollment and budget problems currently, is more than 1 good addition is going to cure.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 10, 2017, 08:13:43 PM
Yeah that most likely won't be happening under President Heckler unfortunately... They've had 4 yrs to do something and haven't done anything but kick the tire down the road.
That's largely because Heckler has managed to get the university in debt up to its eyeballs on building projects over the last few years. Say what you will about Harre, but at least he paid for buildings before breaking ground.
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Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 10, 2017, 09:00:45 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 10, 2017, 08:13:43 PM
Yeah that most likely won't be happening under President Heckler unfortunately... They've had 4 yrs to do something and haven't done anything but kick the tire down the road.
That's largely because Heckler has managed to get the university in debt up to its eyeballs on building projects over the last few years. Say what you will about Harre, but at least he paid for buildings before breaking ground.
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Really?.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 10, 2017, 09:00:45 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 10, 2017, 08:13:43 PM
Yeah that most likely won't be happening under President Heckler unfortunately... They've had 4 yrs to do something and haven't done anything but kick the tire down the road.
That's largely because Heckler has managed to get the university in debt up to its eyeballs on building projects over the last few years. Say what you will about Harre, but at least he paid for buildings before breaking ground.
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Total BS
Quote from: wh on April 10, 2017, 08:23:02 PM
Quote from: Chairback on April 10, 2017, 07:29:17 PM
I bet they offer Belmont the spot, Belmont turns it down, and they stay at 9 for the short term and do not add anyone this coming season.
I agree with an earlier poster who said if they only offer 1, I hope it's somebody else, or if it's Valpo we turn them down. The impact of losing their top 2 programs, adding a struggling program, along with widespread enrollment and budget problems currently, is more than 1 good addition is going to cure.
I agree with wh on this one. There are a lot of hurdles (exit fees, transition process, modifying schedules, etc.) that go along with switching conferences. You should only do it if there are clear tangible advantages to making the move. If not, staying put, building your program and waiting for the right opportunity is the best move.
For reference, Butler (maybe by luck and taking advantage of massive conference realignment) was able to make a clear step up to the a-10, which positioned them to make another jump to the New Big East. Both were no-brainers, IMO, but even then, didn't happen without challenges. But the A-10 had 5 NCAAT bids in 2013 and then the Big East has had 4-6 bids (from10 teams) per year since.
Moving to the MVC doesn't guarantee that success. Valpo would be moving from one one-bid league to the MVC, a likely one-bid league without Creighton or WSU. It might be a positive move, but clearly not a no-brainer.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 10, 2017, 09:00:45 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 10, 2017, 08:13:43 PM
Yeah that most likely won't be happening under President Heckler unfortunately... They've had 4 yrs to do something and haven't done anything but kick the tire down the road.
That's largely because Heckler has managed to get the university in debt up to its eyeballs on building projects over the last few years. Say what you will about Harre, but at least he paid for buildings before breaking ground.
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Most of the new buildings or additions have been donations. I know they funded the new Arts & Sciences building with bonds. The debt was pretty safe last I checked. Been a while though.
Quote from: vu72 on April 10, 2017, 09:07:58 PM
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 10, 2017, 09:00:45 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 10, 2017, 08:13:43 PM
Yeah that most likely won't be happening under President Heckler unfortunately... They've had 4 yrs to do something and haven't done anything but kick the tire down the road.
That's largely because Heckler has managed to get the university in debt up to its eyeballs on building projects over the last few years. Say what you will about Harre, but at least he paid for buildings before breaking ground.
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Total BS
I'm not agreeing with either on this topic. But how have all of these buildings been paid for / being paid for?
I don't think Belmont and Murray State being in the same conference together is necessarily good for mid major basketball. Murray State hasn't been to the tournament since the 2011-12 season, and Belmont's been twice since joining the OVC, but they had gone to the tournament 5 times in their last 7 years of the A-Sun.
If the MVC added Valpo, and the two OVC schools, you're probably talking about 1 bid being handed out between one of Valpo, Murray State, Belmont, and UNI. Maybe there's an at-large there with those four programs, but consolidating top mid majors might be counterproductive.
Quote from: a3uge on April 10, 2017, 09:59:52 PM
I don't think Belmont and Murray State being in the same conference together is necessarily good for mid major basketball. Murray State hasn't been to the tournament since the 2011-12 season, and Belmont's been twice since joining the OVC, but they had gone to the tournament 5 times in their last 7 years of the A-Sun.
If the MVC added Valpo, and the two OVC schools, you're probably talking about 1 bid being handed out between one of Valpo, Murray State, Belmont, and UNI. Maybe there's an at-large there with those four programs, but consolidating top mid majors might be counterproductive.
I also stated this a while back. Saying this to reassert myself and agree with a3uge here.
What is our recruiting niche if we're not in the top two of the conference year in and year out? So what jam this conference full of quality mid-majors, what recruit is going to come to VU to fight for fourth place?
I know this is shortsighted, but I think the Horizon league with some improved teams overall is a decent league for us. I am not going to say I don't want the Missouri Valley conference, but I could take it or leave it.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 10, 2017, 10:05:29 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 10, 2017, 09:59:52 PM
I don't think Belmont and Murray State being in the same conference together is necessarily good for mid major basketball. Murray State hasn't been to the tournament since the 2011-12 season, and Belmont's been twice since joining the OVC, but they had gone to the tournament 5 times in their last 7 years of the A-Sun.
If the MVC added Valpo, and the two OVC schools, you're probably talking about 1 bid being handed out between one of Valpo, Murray State, Belmont, and UNI. Maybe there's an at-large there with those four programs, but consolidating top mid majors might be counterproductive.
I also stated this a while back. Saying this to reassert myself and agree with a3uge here.
What is our recruiting niche if we're not in the top two of the conference year in and year out? So what jam this conference full of quality mid-majors, what recruit is going to come to VU to fight for fourth place?
I know this is shortsighted, but I think the Horizon league with some improved teams overall is a decent league for us. I am not going to say I don't want the Missouri Valley conference, but I could take it or leave it.
I really do think the MVC with Valpo, Belmont, and Murray State could become a multi-bid league again over time as long as the majority of schools in the MVC are fully commit the basketball financially and don't make bad hires.
Peope forget that Wichita State was not "special" before Gregg Marshall around 06-07'. Programs can grow and develop into powerhouse like WSU as long as they have the funding to retain their coach and are willing to invest in the program. Now WSU benefitted from having Creighton in the Conf so that is one thing to consider. The MVC will not be a 2-bid league for the foreseeable future but it doesn't mean they never can be.
Also if the MVC becomes competitive enough and prove it can be a 2-bid league some years then maybe the MVC could finally convince SLU to rejoin the MVC and save a boat load on Travel costs and pretty much have a home Conf Tournament in their back yard. Maybe eventually Dayton could join the MVC one day. A lot of IFs in this scenario I concede.
If Valpo gets offered an invite then we have to make that jump. If we don't then likely another HL school will make that jump. The HL will be a better the next few years but if one of these HL schools loses their coach like UIC then success is likely to follow the coach. UIC is not the only team in the HL that is in that scenario. Some MVC have funding questions but there are more of those cases in the HL.
You make solid points VU2014, but budgets only stay high if TV money and income stay high. I think 2019 is the restructure year for the TV money. What's going to happen when they don't get that same paycheck annually? Will the MVC contract like the HL did post Butler?
I don't necessarily like the commuter school aspect of some of the Horizon league schools so that is one big plus to my small mind. I'm still pretty up in the air on the transition. Would be nice to make some new rivalries and renew others.
Quote from: a3uge on April 10, 2017, 09:59:52 PMIf the MVC added Valpo, and the two OVC schools, you're probably talking about 1 bid being handed out between one of Valpo, Murray State, Belmont, and UNI. Maybe there's an at-large there with those four programs, but consolidating top mid majors might be counterproductive.
If Murray St and Belmont both called LeCrone wanting into the HL we would be screaming for him to get them signed up, and our romance with the MVC would be over. Yes there is danger in consolidating top mid majors but weigh it against the benefits. The Horizon appears to have fallen to a level of temporary stability (probably on an up tick) while the Valley hasn't yet started its full descent.
The MVC needs to make a big move and make it now. We need to see that commissioner Elgin understands this problem before we consider signing on.
I would much prefer not to be in an every year one bid league. I want Elgin or LeCrone or both to figure out some configuration or method of mutual assistance where mid major at-large quality teams are rewarded with at-large bids. I'll let the rest of you worry about public vs private and the academic comparisons. :thumbsup:
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 10, 2017, 09:53:19 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 10, 2017, 09:07:58 PM
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 10, 2017, 09:00:45 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 10, 2017, 08:13:43 PM
Yeah that most likely won't be happening under President Heckler unfortunately... They've had 4 yrs to do something and haven't done anything but kick the tire down the road.
That's largely because Heckler has managed to get the university in debt up to its eyeballs on building projects over the last few years. Say what you will about Harre, but at least he paid for buildings before breaking ground.
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Total BS
I'm not agreeing with either on this topic. But how have all of these buildings been paid for / being paid for?
Since President Heckler came to Valpo I believe the following projects have been donor funded: the Gellerson addition, the Welcome Center, the Chapel Addition, the track.
And the following projects have been financed with debt: The Arts & Sciences building, Beacon Hall Dorm, purchase of the Porter Hospital property, new Chemistry Lab building (under construction now) and the Sorority housing next to the ARC.
Quote from: justducky on April 10, 2017, 11:07:32 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 10, 2017, 09:59:52 PMIf the MVC added Valpo, and the two OVC schools, you're probably talking about 1 bid being handed out between one of Valpo, Murray State, Belmont, and UNI. Maybe there's an at-large there with those four programs, but consolidating top mid majors might be counterproductive.
If Murray St and Belmont both called LeCrone wanting into the HL we would be screaming for him to get them signed up, and our romance with the MVC would be over. Yes there is danger in consolidating top mid majors but weigh it against the benefits. The Horizon appears to have fallen to a level of temporary stability (probably on an up tick) while the Valley hasn't yet started its full descent.
The MVC needs to make a big move and make it now. We need to see that commissioner Elgin understands this problem before we consider signing on.
I would much prefer not to be in an every year one bid league. I want Elgin or LeCrone or both to figure out some configuration or method of mutual assistance where mid major at-large quality teams are rewarded with at-large bids. I'll let the rest of you worry about public vs private and the academic comparisons. :thumbsup:
The only way of potentially regaining 2-bid status is if the Conference grab the best Mid-Major Schools available and hope teams like IL St, Valpo, Belmont, UNI build on their success and take the programs to another level. The OVC is a 1-bid league and so is HL. The MVC has the "bones" for more stable programs to build success. The HL is a few coaching switches away from being completely unstable. If the HL lost Valpo it would really be a blow to the conferences competitiveness going forward and I believe a few schools would seriously consider leaving for the Summit. Thats not a stable conference in my book.
In this new era there really is no such thing as a stable MidMajor conference though. There are a lot of unhappy and very unsatisfied schools in their conference with no where to jump to beside lateral or jumping to a worse conference (at least in the MVC schools eyes). A new midwest midmajor would be the best things for the Top Mids right now but I don't know where that type of leadership would come from.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 10, 2017, 08:13:43 PMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 10, 2017, 07:56:04 PMSolid fact filled article on attendance, budgets and detriments that Belmont saw in declining the offer prior. http://www.kxel.com/panthers/2017/04/10/reports-mvc-interested-in-belmont-valparaiso-murray-state-after-wsu-departure (http://www.kxel.com/panthers/2017/04/10/reports-mvc-interested-in-belmont-valparaiso-murray-state-after-wsu-departure)
Good Article. "Valparaiso operates with a $2.66 million basketball budget, has averaged 25.2 wins the past five years and has an average attendance of 3,572. Valpo is a good fit geographically but would likely need to make promises to the Valley that they will upgrade their facilities in the near future." Yeah that most likely won't be happening under President Heckler unfortunately... They've had 4 yrs to do something and haven't done anything but kick the tire down the road. But to honest I don't understand why it would be a deal breaker for the MVC. The seating capacity is in line with some MVC schools and Valpo has a pretty good track record of attendance when we aren't playing the same old garbage HL teams that come through the ARC. And the genius's in the Horizon League Offices manage to schedule Oakland on Spring Breaks or when the student off of campus... Pretty interesting to see other regions sites (covering MVC schools) pointing out the facilities possibly being an issue with a MVC invite. Is this just a writer spitting out an old narrative or did they actually hear from a source that it could be a sticking point on an invite. I just don't see President Heckler committing to ARC improvement on the dotted line.
I think their hesitation may have less to do with the overall capacity of the ARC and more to do with the fact that a majority of the seating is backless bleachers, making it feel like a high school gym, and the fact that VU has barely touched/upgraded it in the 30+ years it's been in use.
Again, I do not care about the multi-bid capability of our conference, as long as we are competing against like-minded universities. In the HL, our academic profile is very different than each of the other schools. If we can get into a more competitive conference that has more schools with like-minded academic profiles, I am all for it, regardless of number of bids.
Quote from: valpotx on April 11, 2017, 04:16:14 AM
Again, I do not care about the multi-bid capability of our conference, as long as we are competing against like-minded universities. In the HL, our academic profile is very different than each of the other schools. If we can get into a more competitive conference that has more schools with like-minded academic profiles, I am all for it, regardless of number of bids.
Well put. Especially in realignment, it is really important to end up with like-minded schools because having outliers (or being the outlier) in that sense means you aren't all pulling in a similar direction as the other schools you should be working with. The MVC is unique in that it has both private and public institutions, but there are certainly more private universities with similar profiles to Valpo than are found in the Horizon.
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 11, 2017, 06:46:51 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 11, 2017, 04:16:14 AM
Again, I do not care about the multi-bid capability of our conference, as long as we are competing against like-minded universities. In the HL, our academic profile is very different than each of the other schools. If we can get into a more competitive conference that has more schools with like-minded academic profiles, I am all for it, regardless of number of bids.
Well put. Especially in realignment, it is really important to end up with like-minded schools because having outliers (or being the outlier) in that sense means you aren't all pulling in a similar direction as the other schools you should be working with. The MVC is unique in that it has both private and public institutions, but there are certainly more private universities with similar profiles to Valpo than are found in the Horizon.
I'd be more concerned with the "like-minded" private schools in the MVC than the public schools. Evansville, Drake, Bradley, and Loyola have been bad programs for awhile now. Wichita State and UNI have been carrying that conference.
Quote from: valpotx on April 11, 2017, 04:16:14 AM
Again, I do not care about the multi-bid capability of our conference, as long as we are competing against like-minded universities. In the HL, our academic profile is very different than each of the other schools. If we can get into a more competitive conference that has more schools with like-minded academic profiles, I am all for it, regardless of number of bids.
Are high schoolers choosing Bradley over Valpo because Valpo plays Cleveland State twice a year in basketball while Bradley plays Drake? I think it's absurd to think perspective students and current alumni care more about the basketball team playing Evansville and Loyola than having a chance at seeing the team play in the NCAA tournament due to being in a conference that receives more than one bid.
Again, I think you align your future with the right peers for many reasons.
One key reason is that there is no guarantee that even one "dance bid" goes to a mid-major conferences like MVC and Horizon in the future, and certainly its unlikely that mid-majors can squeeze in two bids in the ever tougher TV driven money.
I really hate to be gloomy, but I foresee all the non Power 6 teams relegated to a larger "play in" round of 16 etc. at best. They got away with cheapening the bid for the new "Round One." That puts them closer to more teams playing on Tuesday before anyone cares or watches on TV.
Athletes definitely choose one school over the other, due to the teams that they play against, regardless of the amount of NCAA bids. Are you kidding me, in thinking that they don't?? When I found out that we had to play Chicago State several times each year in baseball, and that I had to travel to Southern Utah, Centenary, and several other far flung places, it almost swayed my decision. The kids that care about getting multiple bids are usually people that Valpo cannot attract anyways, as they are probably top players.
If you are just talking about general students choosing Valpo (not athletes), if they end up following Valpo sports, I can definitely say that they would take more pride in saying that they compete against the MVC schools, versus what we have in the Horizon. People have heard of most schools in the MVC, whereas you have to explain about some HL schools (Cleveland State, Youngstown State, etc).
QuoteEvansville, Drake, Bradley, and Loyola have been bad programs for awhile now. Wichita State and UNI have been carrying that conference.
-Evansville was good a few years ago.
-Drake has been consistently not great but I believe in 07'-08' Drake had very good team that went to the tourney but haven't been great since. They went to the CIT a few times I believe in the last decade or so. They have very nice facilities.
-Bradley just a few years ago has started reinvesting in the basketball program and hired Brian Wardle (former Green Bay HC). They have some history and decent facilities.
-Loyola isn't a great basketball schools but Coach Porter has really recruited well the last few years and they should be better in the future.
-Illinois State will be a pretty good program for the foreseeable future. The Favorites for next year.
-UNI is a good program and has had a lot of success the last 10 years.
Yes losing Wichita State (Creighton a few yrs ago) has hurt the Conference but it's not like the Conference is trash. I'd personally rather play these schools then the Horizon League schools from competitive standpoint. There is also the better "fit" like others have mentioned. The MVC schools will definitely sell better at the ARC from fan interest, imo.
Quote from: valpotx on April 11, 2017, 04:16:14 AM
Again, I do not care about the multi-bid capability of our conference, as long as we are competing against like-minded universities. In the HL, our academic profile is very different than each of the other schools. If we can get into a more competitive conference that has more schools with like-minded academic profiles, I am all for it, regardless of number of bids.
I think Valpo will probably join the MVC, with at least one other school.
But an expanded Valley is going to be a one bid conference with a lot of teams. And it will have just as many teachers colleges as "like-minded" private schools.
Ultimately, my prefered solution would be to take the current private schools in the Valley, and form a new conference with Valpo, Detroit, Belmont, and Lipscomb. Just eight schools competing for one bid.
Quote from: valpotx on April 11, 2017, 09:43:04 AM
Athletes definitely choose one school over the other, due to the teams that they play against, regardless of the amount of NCAA bids. Are you kidding me, in thinking that they don't?? When I found out that we had to play Chicago State several times each year in baseball, and that I had to travel to Southern Utah, Centenary, and several other far flung places, it almost swayed my decision. The kids that care about getting multiple bids are usually people that Valpo cannot attract anyways, as they are probably top players.
If you are just talking about general students choosing Valpo (not athletes), if they end up following Valpo sports, I can definitely say that they would take more pride in saying that they compete against the MVC schools, versus what we have in the Horizon. People have heard of most schools in the MVC, whereas you have to explain about some HL schools (Cleveland State, Youngstown State, etc).
Your argument has nothing to do with private vs public schools. Athletes and students are going to be more jazzed about playing a ranked UNI team than playing a bottom feeding Evansville team. This doesn't have anything to do with being a like-minded university. It has to do with actual athletic success.
Quote from: valpotx on April 11, 2017, 04:16:14 AM
Again, I do not care about the multi-bid capability of our conference, as long as we are competing against like-minded universities. In the HL, our academic profile is very different than each of the other schools. If we can get into a more competitive conference that has more schools with like-minded academic profiles, I am all for it, regardless of number of bids.
We have to care about being in a multi-bid conference. The MVC may not be multi-bid league right now but there may be potential for teams to grow.
I want to play similar schools too, but that should not be the ultimate priority but instead a consideration. The MVC has more similar schools which is nice but not the total selling point leaving for the MVC. Definitely should help get butts in the seat in the ARC.
I was responding to your general statement about not caring who they/we play, as long as they have multiple chances at the NCAA bid.
We are a private school of 4,500 in NW Indiana, who is often an afterthought in our own backyard. We are never going to be in a conference that regularly gets multiple bids, especially with the direction that the Power 5 is going. My thinking is that I would much rather be tied to several other private schools, who are often competing for the same types of students (not just athletes), rather than against schools that we really have no connection. We could only muster 4,149 fans for a game at home against #21 URI, but had more fans against unranked Youngstown State (4,823). No one in the HL travels to games at our facility, aside from some Oakland and Milwaukee fans. I have to think that will change in the MVC, as there aren't as many commuter schools, so there are generally more people connected to the university.
Paul dropping some knowledge and research:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851849965928370176
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851850096446771202
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851850224263991297
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851850428748845058
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851850976545918977
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851851331761565696
Also Alec's former AAU coach and Taylor Bruninga's current coach asked a pretty big question that we've all been wondering ourselves:
https://twitter.com/Illinois_Irish/status/851852517285797890
Is the MVC smart enough to schedule more Saturday conference games? The HL sure isn't. What did we have, 1 home Saturday night conference game this year?
I think our attendance is stronger than it looks. Need a smart schedule to maximize attendance.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on April 11, 2017, 12:47:46 PM
Is the MVC smart enough to schedule more Saturday conference games? The HL sure isn't. What did we have, 1 home Saturday night conference game this year?
I think our attendance is stronger than it looks. Need a smart schedule to maximize attendance.
I believe the HL has to cater to ESPN a lot on the scheduling unfortunately. HL has a contract that says they get on Friday night games I believe.
Horizon League offices are notoriously awful for scheduling rivalry games on poorly timed days. They scheduled both Valpo vs Oakland games when students were not on campus. Those games need to be when students are there and on cable not just ESPN3. (I believe one of them were on cable which was the one at Oakland).
But agreed that we definitely need more Saturday games! I know that we won't get on cable those days but Saturday are the prime days to schedule home games for schools.
Answered my own question:
Illinois State: 3 away Saturdays and 4 home Saturdays for a total of 7 Saturday MVC games.
Valpo: 2 away Saturdays and 1 home Saturday for a total of 3 Saturday HL games.
For this reason alone we should move conferences.
Re: A. Sullivan's (AP's and Bruninga's AAU coach) question on facility upgrade if we would move to the MVC...does that mean that Bruninga still has us on his list? Also, are we still interested in him?
He has, and will continue to have, a whole team of kids he is trying to get to the next level. Bruninga is just next in line.
Quote from: valpo64 on April 11, 2017, 01:13:14 PM
Re: A. Sullivan's (AP's and Bruninga's AAU coach) question on facility upgrade if we would move to the MVC...does that mean that Bruninga still has us on his list? Also, are we still interested in him?
I'm not sure. I'd have to think it may be too late in the recruiting process. Signing day is on April 12th already and he's been taking visits to a lot of MVC schools recently.
My guess how the remaining 2 scholarships turnout:-Shaq Calhoun or some other grad transfer gets one contract. A player that may be able to be relied upon & see minutes next season.
-the final scholarship will go to a RedShirt Transfer who will sit out next year. If the coaches don't land a red-shirt transfer they like then they hold onto the that scholarship and maybe keep a scholarship open for mid-season transfers.
This is all speculation on my part. So I guess there is a chance.
This tweet was from a few weeks ago when the news was announced that Lexus was transferring and we had 3 scholarships open:
It was an obvious reference to Taylor Bruninga. So maybe there is a chance. To be honest I'd like to see a Scholarship be offered to Taylor Bruninga. There is upside there. I honestly would love to ask the coaches privately what is stopping them from offering. My only guess would be the 2 other freshman PFs and 3 would be a lot to carry and might upset the Parker or Mileek. It also could be that they don't like him as much as other but I don't think that is the case at all.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/844663596063764480
https://twitter.com/Illinois_Irish/status/844667244114333704
Quote from: VU2014 on April 11, 2017, 12:43:34 PM
Paul dropping some knowledge and research:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851850976545918977
Did anything unique happen at that Bradley game in 83-84?
This talk of two bid conferences is premature. We need to take care business on our own. For a conference to have multiple bids, there need to be at least two teams in the top 40-45 in many of the ranking systems, or one team solidly in the top 30 but upset in conference tournament. I believe Valpo in 2016 and Illinois St this past year had an argument for an at-large bid, but fell just short. We also need to remember that the Power 6 conferences now have 75 members, of which about half are in the running for at-large berths. That doesn't leave much room for the next level of conference (AAC, A10, MWC, West Coast, and MVC) for at-large bids.
The conference (HL or MVC) really needs to get buy-in from all teams that expend resources within NCAA guidelines to maintain a quality men's basketball program. It has become increasingly more difficult to maintain a quality coaching staff ($$), and players are leaving programs at a higher rate than 20 years ago. Within our own conference there will always be a bottom half, with losing records in conference play. That is unavoidable. What the conference should desire is teams in the ranking range of 30-250, and no team below 250. This past season, using Massey's Composite of 51 ranking systems, the HL had:
Oakland 88
Valpo 90
NKentucky 120
Wright St 146
Green Bay 184
UIC 229
Milwaukee 258
Cleveland 263
YSU 269
Detroit 305
We need all teams to elevate their programs, not just one or two.
In regards to Paul's statistics in regards to our record against the MVC, we had a very similar poor record against HL competition, before we joined. That has changed substantially in 10 years ;)
Since in recent years we have been holding our recruiting cards close to the vest, why should we conclude that we have not offered Bruninga? Or Fazikas(spell?) for that matter.
Quote from: valpo64 on April 11, 2017, 03:11:51 PM
Since in recent years we have been holding our recruiting cards close to the vest, why should we conclude that we have not offered Bruninga? Or Fazikas(spell?) for that matter.
These days, the recruit himself or his HS Coach or AAU coach would tweet out the news of a new offer. No news, no offer. We have also tweeted out news of offers as well, especially with official on campus visits.
Quote from: covufan on April 11, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on April 11, 2017, 03:11:51 PM
Since in recent years we have been holding our recruiting cards close to the vest, why should we conclude that we have not offered Bruninga? Or Fazikas(spell?) for that matter.
These days, the recruit himself or his HS Coach or AAU coach would tweet out the news of a new offer. No news, no offer. We have also tweeted out news of offers as well, especially with official on campus visits.
Yep. Its hard to keep things a secret these days.
Valpo still isn't very public about their recruiting as much as a lot of other coaching staffs but things are starting to change with social media.
I've heard stories of AAU coaches lying about school interest just to try and gin up interest and try & bring other coaches to practice and games. AAU can be a shady business. There are some really great coaches that care about the kids but then there are also a LOT of scumbags out there just pimping out the kids for $.
Quote from: covufan on April 11, 2017, 02:26:02 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 11, 2017, 12:43:34 PM
Paul dropping some knowledge and research:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851850976545918977
Did anything unique happen at that Bradley game in 83-84?
Bradley fouled out enough players that they had to finish the game with four players.
And that was followed three weeks later by the Rob Harden one finger salute against Eastern Kentucky, which summed up the season and Tom Smith's coaching tenure.
Side benefits of joining the MVC -
• listening to Wardle drop the f-bomb 50 times in the Bradley huddle
• telling Hinson how much I enjoyed listening to his classic postgame rant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8OeZ7S8x3Y
I do wonder about the quality of coaches in the MVC. Honestly, given the new and coming coaches in the Horizon, the Horizon has the upper hand.
Quote from: vu72 on April 11, 2017, 07:59:31 PM
I do wonder about the quality of coaches in the MVC. Honestly, given the new and coming coaches in the Horizon, the Horizon has the upper hand.
Yeah, the MVC is going to go through a rebuilding phase like the Horizon did the past few years. Longevity isn't necessarily an asset in college basketball - it's probably much better to always have an up and coming young coach than to have retread fossils.
Someone mentioned that the searing capacity for Valparaiso's basketball arena is similar to some MVC schools, but it only seats a little over 500 more than Loyola (the smallest arena in the MVC) and the next smallest seats over 2,000 more.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 11, 2017, 11:26:36 PM
Someone mentioned that the searing capacity for Valparaiso's basketball arena is similar to some MVC schools, but it only seats a little over 500 more than Loyola (the smallest arena in the MVC) and the next smallest seats over 2,000 more.
I am not sure why people raise the seating capacity issue. What matters is not how many seats there are, but how many people in those seats. In fact, I think it is worse to have a large venue with mostly empty seats. Valpo's average attendance for 2016 was 3,572, which is double the figure for Loyola (1,831) and not far from the average for all MVC teams (4,609) if you subtract Wichita St. (10,805). (Additionally, I'm willing to bet Valpo's attendance would be even higher if playing in the MVC, and the average for the MVC members would be lower without Wichita State's 9 games as a visitor bringing its fan base.) Valpo's average attendance also ranks better than its two presumed competitors for an invite: Belmont (2,536) and Murray State (3,266).
I also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
Facilities are important for Valparaiso University in the long term. do we need a huge arena? Of course not? But upgrades to the ARC are required as it is becoming antiquated. locker rooms need upgrades, more chair back seats, expand the north end another 1000 seats, and some cosmetic enhancements. Make the ARC a facility we can be proud of.
Btw, the swimming facilities need significant help. that situation is ridiculas.
Regarding the NDSU guy, maybe he believes we need to get free tan Sierras from some dude named Lundegaard and have available wood chippers.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 12, 2017, 06:15:50 AM
Facilities are important for Valparaiso University in the long term. do we need a huge arena? Of course not? But upgrades to the ARC are required as it is becoming antiquated. locker rooms need upgrades, more chair back seats, expand the north end another 1000 seats, and some cosmetic enhancements. Make the ARC a facility we can be proud of.
Btw, the swimming facilities need significant help. that situation is ridiculas.
Regarding the NDSU guy, maybe he believes we need to get free tan Sierras from some dude named Lundegaard and have available wood chippers.
Personal opinion is a new pool ONLY makes sense placed in the new rec-center design. Remodeling one at the ARC is plan worthless.
Swimming doesn't bring a ton of value as the MVC demonstrates not having a conference affiliation in swimming. I say this having two close friends at VU who swam and a sister that swam in the Big East.
It's a reaaaally expensive investment in a no income sport for VU.
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2017, 01:04:33 AM
I also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
Would we all agree that permanent seating is the single largest need?
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 12, 2017, 06:32:22 AMQuote from: valpotx on April 12, 2017, 01:04:33 AMI also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
Would we all agree that permanent seating is the single largest need?
Permanent bowl seating on lower level is the biggest need for sure.
I don't even think we need to expand with more seating to the north. I personally would be in favor of permanent bowl seating in the lower bowl. Small expansion to create room for small private suites all the way around where the track is on the north east and west and we can always leave the upper seating as it is (or update with permanent seating). That would greatly improve the look and feel of the ARC, the suites would add a premium feel while not being overly expansive or a major construction undertaking while also providing an added revenue stream.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 12, 2017, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2017, 01:04:33 AM
I also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
Would we all agree that permanent seating is the single largest need?
That would be nice for fans, but recruits aren't coming to Valpo based on seat comfort. Practice facilities and locker rooms are far more important for the success of the program. I believe they're still going through with the locker room and Hilltop renovation this summer.
Quote from: vu72 on April 11, 2017, 07:59:31 PM
I do wonder about the quality of coaches in the MVC. Honestly, given the new and coming coaches in the Horizon, the Horizon has the upper hand.
I like the HL recent hires (but maybe not YSU & CSU's...) also but I have a feeling that many of these coaches other then Kampe would jump to a "Better" (bigger) school in a better conference at the first chance they get.
Once/if they turn around the programs they are in jeopardy of getting poached. Unfortunately a lot of the success follows the coach or the coach is short sited and leaves for a pay raise but never experiences the success he had without the momentum he built at his last school.
This is all very cyclical.
Quote from: a3uge on April 12, 2017, 09:05:50 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 12, 2017, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2017, 01:04:33 AM
I also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
Would we all agree that permanent seating is the single largest need?
That would be nice for fans, but recruits aren't coming to Valpo based on seat comfort. Practice facilities and locker rooms are far more important for the success of the program. I believe they're still going through with the locker room and Hilltop renovation this summer.
Agreed, permanent seat would be nice but probably should not be the priority.
Valpo would need to build the Student Rec Center first or more renovations for Hilltop first. By putting the permanent seating around the court it limits the use of the space for other sports practices (including Basketball) and even limits the use of the space for other events at the ARC.
If the University were to put permanent seating there then it would need to be very well thought out.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 12, 2017, 09:18:02 AM
Quote from: a3uge on April 12, 2017, 09:05:50 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 12, 2017, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2017, 01:04:33 AM
I also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
Would we all agree that permanent seating is the single largest need?
That would be nice for fans, but recruits aren't coming to Valpo based on seat comfort. Practice facilities and locker rooms are far more important for the success of the program. I believe they're still going through with the locker room and Hilltop renovation this summer.
Agreed, permanent seat would be nice but probably should not be the priority.
Valpo would need to build the Student Rec Center first or more renovations for Hilltop first. By putting the permanent seating around the court it limits the use of the space for other sports practices (including Basketball) and even limits the use of the space for other events at the ARC.
If the University were to put permanent seating there then it would need to be very well thought out.
An interesting point. I guess I thought the chairbacks were retractible as are the bleachers. Am I wrong on that? I like the idea about the suites and chairbacks all the way around the lower seating but if 2014 is correct then that can't be done util the Rec center is open. I believe the locker room was done last year. I think pretty much all the locker rooms have been redone at this point. I've seen pictures of football, soccer etc and they look very nice. Mark indicated the pressing need for air conditioning in Hilltop which has had further enhancements. Pretty sure that will be the next thing done.
Quote from: vu72 on April 12, 2017, 09:34:46 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 12, 2017, 09:18:02 AM
Quote from: a3uge on April 12, 2017, 09:05:50 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 12, 2017, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2017, 01:04:33 AM
I also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
Would we all agree that permanent seating is the single largest need?
That would be nice for fans, but recruits aren't coming to Valpo based on seat comfort. Practice facilities and locker rooms are far more important for the success of the program. I believe they're still going through with the locker room and Hilltop renovation this summer.
Agreed, permanent seat would be nice but probably should not be the priority.
Valpo would need to build the Student Rec Center first or more renovations for Hilltop first. By putting the permanent seating around the court it limits the use of the space for other sports practices (including Basketball) and even limits the use of the space for other events at the ARC.
If the University were to put permanent seating there then it would need to be very well thought out.
An interesting point. I guess I thought the chairbacks were retractible as are the bleachers. Am I wrong on that? I like the idea about the suites and chairbacks all the way around the lower seating but if 2014 is correct then that can't be done util the Rec center is open. I believe the locker room was done last year. I think pretty much all the locker rooms have been redone at this point. I've seen pictures of football, soccer etc and they look very nice. Mark indicated the pressing need for air conditioning in Hilltop which has had further enhancements. Pretty sure that will be the next thing done.
I believe the ARC is scheduled to receive a new roof. Perhaps upgraded air conditioning could be done at the same time. However, I am also thinking if the new roof is just a replacement, that might mean no imminent plans for expansion.
Seems that chairbacks on both sides of the lower bowl would help, along with significant addition to concessions and restrooms. The lines for both of those are ridiculous, even when there isn't a significant crowd. I also still go back to WH's post about parking. Seems that they should put down some gravel in the old Porter Hospital lot. Seems to me that giving prospective fans a place to park, sit without a backache, and snack and go to the john (without a 20 minute wait) should be the priorities for bringing in more fans (and their money).
I agree that matching the north side retractable chairbacks on the south side would be a decent interim solution until a Rec Center/Field House is built. The current floor space is necessary to support a whole bunch of other sports and activities, so retractable is the only way to go in the lower bowl (for now). I also would like to see permanent retractable bleachers at the east end to complete the bowl feel during games. I realize this would require moving the concession stand :( That goes with what 4throwfan mentions below and I don't see how that can be done without an expansion on the north side.
This could be done in a series of phases as funding becomes available and would not displace the basketball or volleyball teams nor put the floor space out of circulation as it is implemented:
Phase One: North side ground level expansion that includes restrooms, two concession stands as well as, for instance, a new and expanded training room and physical therapy/sports medicine facility. This construction could be accomplished with hardly any interference with existing building use. The design would take into consideration metrics and structural loads that would support further expansion during Phase two.
Phase Two: Second level expansion above the Phase One structure involving an additional gym floor.
Phase Three: Demolish the upper wall on the north side thus connecting the new north side gym to the main arena and installing retractable bench seating similar to what exists on the south side above the track. This would compensate for the loss of seating (probably 100-200) that occurred as a result of replacing the south side ground floor bleachers with retractable chairbacks (chairbacks being a bit wider across the bum), and add additional seating to bring the arena up to 6,000 - 6,250.
Phase Four: Eventually constructing permanent seating in the lower bowl once the Rec Center/Field House is built. The addition of all permanent seats in the lower bowl would probably drop the total capacity to just under 6,000 but still a bit better than what it is today.
Quote from: vu72 on April 12, 2017, 09:34:46 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 12, 2017, 09:18:02 AM
Quote from: a3uge on April 12, 2017, 09:05:50 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 12, 2017, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2017, 01:04:33 AM
I also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
Would we all agree that permanent seating is the single largest need?
That would be nice for fans, but recruits aren't coming to Valpo based on seat comfort. Practice facilities and locker rooms are far more important for the success of the program. I believe they're still going through with the locker room and Hilltop renovation this summer.
Agreed, permanent seat would be nice but probably should not be the priority.
Valpo would need to build the Student Rec Center first or more renovations for Hilltop first. By putting the permanent seating around the court it limits the use of the space for other sports practices (including Basketball) and even limits the use of the space for other events at the ARC.
If the University were to put permanent seating there then it would need to be very well thought out.
An interesting point. I guess I thought the chairbacks were retractible as are the bleachers. Am I wrong on that? I like the idea about the suites and chairbacks all the way around the lower seating but if 2014 is correct then that can't be done util the Rec center is open. I believe the locker room was done last year. I think pretty much all the locker rooms have been redone at this point. I've seen pictures of football, soccer etc and they look very nice. Mark indicated the pressing need for air conditioning in Hilltop which has had further enhancements. Pretty sure that will be the next thing done.
This is what it looks like when the team is just practicing or when Volleyball is in there. The Chairbacks get pushed back and they often use the entire court surface.
Maybe they could building a similar setup in the lower bowl on all 4 sides of the court? (They would have to move the concessions which might not be a bad idea or building more then one concession stand for the entire arena) Although I like that the student section is a bleacher setup. You can pack more students in the bleachers seating, plus students shouldn't be sitting down unless its half time or before the game anyways.
https://twitter.com/ValpoBasketball/status/793604978787098624
https://twitter.com/ValpoBasketball/status/772853140538396672
https://twitter.com/ValpoBasketball/status/772852950259605504
https://twitter.com/ValpoRobotics/status/850706093215027201
Quote from: 4throwfan on April 12, 2017, 09:59:36 AM
Seems that chairbacks on both sides of the lower bowl would help, along with significant addition to concessions and restrooms. The lines for both of those are ridiculous, even when there isn't a significant crowd. I also still go back to WH's post about parking. Seems that they should put down some gravel in the old Porter Hospital lot. Seems to me that giving prospective fans a place to park, sit without a backache, and snack and go to the john (without a 20 minute wait) should be the priorities for bringing in more fans (and their money).
As I mentioned before, the university took what was an "indoor-only" problem and compounded it by systematically eliminating available parking in every direction around the ARC. Someone commented in the "Facilities" thread that building new facilities on former parking lots and building new facilities without parking lots is part of the university's plan to transition to a "walking" campus. That's fine - for healthy 18-22 year old kids. It's not fine for the general public (your target market for basketball games) with an age range of 8-80. People are looking for ease of access, convenience, and limited exposure to the elements. For example, how many people are going to frequent a restaurant when every time they go they have to circle the neighborhood only to find a parking spot 2 or 3 blocks away (in winter time, no less). Same with going to the movies, or to the grocery store. And, finding a spot is only half the battle. When the game's over, busy people at the end of their day want to walk out to an adjacent parking lot, again with as little exposure to the elements, get in their car, and get home. Put another way, the fan "experience" should begin and end at the entrance to the building.
As someone else suggested, adding an expansive parking area on the SE corner of the old hospital grounds is a good idea. To cover the cost, I would make it a "pay" lot @ $5/vehicle. Trust me, people will flock to it. I would also turn the lot directly across the street to the south of the ARC into a premium pay lot ($10/vehicle). Trust me again, people will flock to it (including myself, other family members, friends). I would do the same for women's games. Up until 5 p.m., the lots can be used for general parking, just like the small lot adjacent to the west side of the ARC. People will love it. Attendance will pick up
dramatically, and the university will have a new revenue source (plus increased revenues from ticket sales). Low risk - high reward.
Not sure it would help ARC parking much but the master plan calls for a parking garage on the north side of the union.
I don't think there is a great enough push for the administration to create a new Student Rec Center...
A Student Rec Center is not some flashy or needless building (Cough... Duesenberg Welcome Center... Cough Cough (looks nice but was not the most pressing need for the University (not my $. it was a donation)).
Student Rec Centers are very standard on almost ever College Campus and is a really big selling point to many perspective students. I kid you not I had probably 5 students from my High School come visit Valpo on 'Over-Nights' to see how they like the college campus and see if the University was a fit for them and all of them said the lack of a student center and very tiny student fitness center was one of the factors not to come to Valpo for them. I remember walking down to the ARC to see if the any of the gyms were available to play pick up basketball and probably 80% of the time the ARC had no space available because teams had practice or some group rented out the space. Also Valpo's tiny (and I mean really tiny) student fitness center doesn't have enough room or equipment to lift. I remember you had to wait 20-30 min to use the squat rack sometimes. Not to mention everybody is packed into there and on top of each other while your trying to lift.
This is a real problem for many perspective students and I don't think people realize this. It was a factor with the 5 young men I hosted on overnights that didn't chose Valpo when I talked to them about it. Ironically I believe one ended up at Drake and 1 went to Loyola, and 2 went to Bradley (MVC schools).
Just food for thought I guess. Mark Labarbera even says he has blueprints for the Student Rec Center but can't find a donor. I don't believe it should just be on him to find the Rec Center donor (that should be broader initiative & I'm sure there are a few folks works on that too).
While I am not sure that attendance would go up dramatically, wh's suggested parking plan makes a whole lot of sense. Having been to other campuses with similar issues, this two-tiered parking plan with $5 and $10 parking prices improves the fan experience and is reasonably priced (I might even go a little higher on the premium lot).
Quote from: valpopal on April 11, 2017, 11:51:14 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 11, 2017, 11:26:36 PM
Someone mentioned that the searing capacity for Valparaiso's basketball arena is similar to some MVC schools, but it only seats a little over 500 more than Loyola (the smallest arena in the MVC) and the next smallest seats over 2,000 more.
I am not sure why people raise the seating capacity issue. What matters is not how many seats there are, but how many people in those seats. In fact, I think it is worse to have a large venue with mostly empty seats. Valpo's average attendance for 2016 was 3,572, which is double the figure for Loyola (1,831) and not far from the average for all MVC teams (4,609) if you subtract Wichita St. (10,805). (Additionally, I'm willing to bet Valpo's attendance would be even higher if playing in the MVC, and the average for the MVC members would be lower without Wichita State's 9 games as a visitor bringing its fan base.) Valpo's average attendance also ranks better than its two presumed competitors for an invite: Belmont (2,536) and Murray State (3,266).
I want to make it clear the I am in favor of adding Valpo.
However, the same argument was made when adding Loyola that their attendance would go up being in the MVC. It hasn't (in fact their average attendance has dropped by about 400) and we are replacing our second school that averaged over 10,000 fans a game with good arenas.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 12, 2017, 06:15:50 AM
Facilities are important for Valparaiso University in the long term. do we need a huge arena? Of course not? But upgrades to the ARC are required as it is becoming antiquated. locker rooms need upgrades, more chair back seats, expand the north end another 1000 seats, and some cosmetic enhancements. Make the ARC a facility we can be proud of.
Btw, the swimming facilities need significant help. that situation is ridiculas.
Regarding the NDSU guy, maybe he believes we need to get free tan Sierras from some dude named Lundegaard and have available wood chippers.
I would prefer for a minimum capacity of 7,000 for Valley schools.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 12, 2017, 11:45:54 AM
While I am not sure that attendance would go up dramatically, wh's suggested parking plan makes a whole lot of sense. Having been to other campuses with similar issues, this two-tiered parking plan with $5 and $10 parking prices improves the fan experience and is reasonably priced (I might even go a little higher on the premium lot).
You're right. It's a needless oversell. I removed it from my post.
Quote from: 4throwfan on April 12, 2017, 09:59:36 AM
Seems that chairbacks on both sides of the lower bowl would help, along with significant addition to concessions and restrooms. The lines for both of those are ridiculous, even when there isn't a significant crowd. I also still go back to WH's post about parking. Seems that they should put down some gravel in the old Porter Hospital lot. Seems to me that giving prospective fans a place to park, sit without a backache, and snack and go to the john (without a 20 minute wait) should be the priorities for bringing in more fans (and their money).
As I mentioned before, the university took what was an "indoor-only" problem and compounded it by systematically eliminating available parking in every direction around the ARC. Someone commented in the "Facilities" thread that building new facilities on former parking lots and building new facilities without parking lots is part of the university's plan to transition to a "walking" campus. That's fine - for healthy 18-22 year old kids. It's not fine for the general public (your target market for basketball games) with an age range of 8-80. People are looking for ease of access, convenience, and limited exposure to the elements. For example, how many people are going to frequent a restaurant when every time they go they have to circle the neighborhood only to find a parking spot 2 or 3 blocks away (in winter time, no less). Same with going to the movies, or to the grocery store. And, finding a spot is only half the battle. When the game's over, busy people at the end of their day want to walk out to an adjacent parking lot, again with as little exposure to the elements, get in their car, and get home. Put another way, the fan "experience" should begin and end at the entrance to the building.
As someone else suggested, adding an expansive parking area on the SE corner of the old hospital grounds is a good idea. To cover the cost, I would make it a "pay" lot @ $5/vehicle. Trust me, people will flock to it. I would also turn the lot directly across the street to the south of the ARC into a premium pay lot ($10/vehicle). Trust me again, people will flock to it (including myself, other family members, friends). I would do the same for women's games. Up until 5 p.m., the lots can be used for general parking, just like the small lot adjacent to the west side of the ARC. People will love it. Attendance
will should pick up
dramatically, and the university will have a new revenue source (plus increased revenues from ticket sales). Low risk - high reward.
Quote from: wh on April 12, 2017, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: 4throwfan on April 12, 2017, 09:59:36 AM
Seems that chairbacks on both sides of the lower bowl would help, along with significant addition to concessions and restrooms. The lines for both of those are ridiculous, even when there isn't a significant crowd. I also still go back to WH's post about parking. Seems that they should put down some gravel in the old Porter Hospital lot. Seems to me that giving prospective fans a place to park, sit without a backache, and snack and go to the john (without a 20 minute wait) should be the priorities for bringing in more fans (and their money).
As I mentioned before, the university took what was an "indoor-only" problem and compounded it by systematically eliminating available parking in every direction around the ARC. Someone commented in the "Facilities" thread that building new facilities on former parking lots and building new facilities without parking lots is part of the university's plan to transition to a "walking" campus. That's fine - for healthy 18-22 year old kids. It's not fine for the general public (your target market for basketball games) with an age range of 8-80. People are looking for ease of access, convenience, and limited exposure to the elements. For example, how many people are going to frequent a restaurant when every time they go they have to circle the neighborhood only to find a parking spot 2 or 3 blocks away (in winter time, no less). Same with going to the movies, or to the grocery store. And, finding a spot is only half the battle. When the game's over, busy people at the end of their day want to walk out to an adjacent parking lot, again with as little exposure to the elements, get in their car, and get home. Put another way, the fan "experience" should begin and end at the entrance to the building.
As someone else suggested, adding an expansive parking area on the SE corner of the old hospital grounds is a good idea. To cover the cost, I would make it a "pay" lot @ $5/vehicle. Trust me, people will flock to it. I would also turn the lot directly across the street to the south of the ARC into a premium pay lot ($10/vehicle). Trust me again, people will flock to it (including myself, other family members, friends). I would do the same for women's games. Up until 5 p.m., the lots can be used for general parking, just like the small lot adjacent to the west side of the ARC. People will love it. Attendance will pick up dramatically, and the university will have a new revenue source (plus increased revenues from ticket sales). Low risk - high reward.
I agree this would be a good move in theory but that parking lot is mainly used by the JR/SR students on campus who live in Guild Memorial Hall. Those students are already paying for parking passes that University forces every student who has a car on campus to purchase every year. I forget what the prices were when I was on campus a few years ago, but just did a quick search and they are $100 for a single semester or $180 for 2 semesters and $225 to include the summers. Not cheap to a college kid.
If the University started forcing students to start parking else where it would cause an uproar. There is no other parking lot "near" for the students in guild memorial.
Another factor that is not going to help is that sometime in the near future Fraternities are going to be building new Fraternity Houses across the street from the Sorority House and that is going to create even less parking in that area. Something to keep in mind also.
Does anyone remember when the City stopped allowing people to park on the residential streets next to the ARC? I could be completely wrong but that may have happened when they received the ok from the City to build the sorority housing. May have been a hand shake agreement between the city and the University to not allow parking on the streets there because it really ticked off the people who lived there.
The University really needs to figure out the parking situation at the ARC, because you can't be doing this to paying customers. It will only hurt attendance (if it hasn't already).
I'm still completely confused as to how and why the University purchased a piece of property (condemned parking garage) without performing basic due diligence.
Quote from: Vinny on April 12, 2017, 12:33:20 PM
I'm still completely confused as to how and why the University purchased a piece of property (condemned parking garage) without performing basic due diligence.
Is the Parking garage really not in usable shape? I thought they just weren't using it because they never built anything in that area yet.
I forget what they are suppose to build on the Porter County property. It's in the "Master Plan"... Its not have a Master Plan & too know the general lay out of what could be built there but it seems like its used as mostly prop to try and raise $ off of more then anything else. I think someone mention that property was suppose to be used for the student rec center and possibly where the "future" indoor track will be built.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 12, 2017, 11:52:12 AM
I would prefer for a minimum capacity of 7,000 for Valley schools.
If you start with the kind of schools that the MVC could potentially attract:
1) Schools not already in a stronger conference (P5, BE, A10, AAC - or already in the MVC)
2) Schools that do NOT have FBS football.
And then look to the strongest basketball programs over time (ie. six year average Ken Pom rating in the top 100), that leaves you with just 10 schools - nationwide. Of those 10, only 1 - Stephen F. Austin in rural southeast Texas - has an arena capacity over 7,000.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 12, 2017, 11:52:12 AMI would prefer for a minimum capacity of 7,000 for Valley schools.
What's the reason behind that seemingly arbitrary number? Adding successful basketball programs is priority number 1, and like others have mentioned, The A-10 succeeds with lower attendance, and Valpo has a much bigger gym than Belmont and higher attendance than Murray State. I think its a total non-issue compared to other facilities. Your redbirds didn't have a single sell out in your best season in well over a decade, and frequently didn't hit 7000 this season. UNI didn't even sell out every game in arguably our best ever season in 14-15. ISUr and MSU certainly have the most legit arenas in the valley now, and the valley as a whole has a lot of nice arenas, but its time to look past that in the current state of mid majors. Fact of the matter is, with Valpo, we know we would bring in a team that can fill their gym and not have lousy sub-2000 attendance like a lot of other candidates.
I think Valpo would see an immediate bump in attendance. New conference with new teams would bring in some excitement, and playing more recognizable names like those old rivals you guys speak of and other good brands like UNI would all help. However, that novelty could wear off quickly if you don't find success.
Not to belabor the point too much, but the program that KenPom rates as far and way the worst in America over the last 6 years is Grambling State.
They have a very nice looking 7,500 seat arena.
(https://www.lincolnbuilders.com/images/news/big/412.jpg)
Quote from: ml2 on April 12, 2017, 01:12:17 PM
Not to belabor the point too much, but the program that KenPom rates as far and way the worst in America over the last 6 years is Grambling State.
They have a very nice looking 7,500 seat arena.
(https://www.lincolnbuilders.com/images/news/big/412.jpg)
We have a better "jumbo"-tron :thumbsup:
Quote from: UNIfan on April 12, 2017, 01:00:56 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 12, 2017, 11:52:12 AMI would prefer for a minimum capacity of 7,000 for Valley schools.
I think Valpo would see an immediate bump in attendance. New conference with new teams would bring in some excitement, and playing more recognizable names like those old rivals you guys speak of and other good brands like UNI would all help. However, that novelty could wear off quickly if you don't find success.
UNIfan, I agree. I really think Playing teams like UNI, IL St, MSU, Bradley, Drake and definitely: Indiana St and E-Ville will boost attendance at the ARC. Also Valpo only had 1 Saturday home game last season (which is ridiculous scheduling by the Horizon League). MVC just plain and simple will sell better at the ARC. Valpo will probably never consistently be a school to have 7,000 people at every game if we built a new arena with more capacity but I think we could get about 4,000 and above consistently in a competitive MVC Conference.
Side-Note: Does anyone know if the ARC staff will figure out a better way to play those Family Express commercials?
Those Family-Express commercials are AWFUL. They are extremely loud and kill the somewhat the vibe of the games. The commercials hurt the pep-band and take away from them. Maybe it's just me but it takes away from the fan experience of going the game. It's just so obnoxious.
I'm joking a little but it makes me want to take my business to anywhere but Family Express. I hope the Athletics Department addresses this. I know I sound like an old man complaining but I honestly think it takes away from the game a bit.
Quote from: valpotx on April 12, 2017, 01:04:33 AMI also think that the facility size and quality issue is very much overblown. Several A-10 schools have much crappier arenas than we do, and much smaller facilities. It seems to mainly be Missouri State and Illinois State fans bringing up this issue on the MVC forum. You also have the NDSU guy that is delusional, which is fun to read.
That's not lakesbison is it? Dude's legendary (
infamous may be a better word). Thinks NDSU is Alabama reincarnated in Fargo. Has been banished from multiple forums.
Quote from: UNIfan on April 12, 2017, 01:00:56 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 12, 2017, 11:52:12 AMI would prefer for a minimum capacity of 7,000 for Valley schools.
What's the reason behind that seemingly arbitrary number? Adding successful basketball programs is priority number 1, and like others have mentioned, The A-10 succeeds with lower attendance, and Valpo has a much bigger gym than Belmont and higher attendance than Murray State. I think its a total non-issue compared to other facilities. Your redbirds didn't have a single sell out in your best season in well over a decade, and frequently didn't hit 7000 this season. UNI didn't even sell out every game in arguably our best ever season in 14-15. ISUr and MSU certainly have the most legit arenas in the valley now, and the valley as a whole has a lot of nice arenas, but its time to look past that in the current state of mid majors. Fact of the matter is, with Valpo, we know we would bring in a team that can fill their gym and not have lousy sub-2000 attendance like a lot of other candidates.
I think Valpo would see an immediate bump in attendance. New conference with new teams would bring in some excitement, and playing more recognizable names like those old rivals you guys speak of and other good brands like UNI would all help. However, that novelty could wear off quickly if you don't find success.
As stated in my post above, the MVC has just lost/is losing their top two teams in terms of attendance. The most recent replacement, Loyola, only has a capacity of 4,486 for basketball. The next lowest team's capacity is 7,018. I think that whoever is added should have, or be required to upgrade to match the smallest arena in the MVC pre-realignment.
I'm not convinced playing in the MVC alone will boost attendance (as I mentioned with Loyola) and it would give Valparaiso an excuse to upgrade where a decent amount of people would like to see an upgrade.
The MVC's Loyola experiment reminds me of the movie "Trading Places" with Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroid. Take a bum off the street, dress him up, put him in a better social situation, and he becomes a shining star. Now that everyone recognizes what a naive, stupid decision that was, they're gripped with fear that their brain trust is about to do it again. Never mind that Valpo has dominated the last 2 leagues it's been in with the same poor-man's facilities Loyola had BEFORE they remodeled, never mind that Valpo won the last 4 contests with Butler on their way out the door, never mind that Valpo has won the HL league championship 5 of the past 6 seasons, and played in 2 NCAA tournaments, and went to the NIT championship game, and averaged 25+wins. Never mind that Valpo's pitiful little venue is considered nationally as having incredible game atmosphere - that ESPN loves to broadcast from the ARC. Never mind that recruits walk away from a hotly contested game at the ARC overwhelmed by the electricity, noise, and rabid student section, something they almost never experience in the half empty barns of other mid-majors. Oh, and never mind that the program that tied us for the league championship this year has the smallest venue in the HL. Huh, how can that be?
Moral of the story - not all bums are created equally. Relax, MVC fans. ;)
I should add that we're not Wichita State and don't pretend to be. Heck, Wichita State wasn't Wichita State before the last 6 years. In fact, they had exactly 5 winning seasons in the prior 20 years. That said, there are no Wichita States on the market, including none anywhere close in the MVC. Only a combination of Valpo, Murray State and Belmont is going to restore the MVC to glory. It will be interesting to see how things play out.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 12, 2017, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: Vinny on April 12, 2017, 12:33:20 PM
I'm still completely confused as to how and why the University purchased a piece of property (condemned parking garage) without performing basic due diligence.
Is the Parking garage really not in usable shape? I thought they just weren't using it because they never built anything in that area yet.
I forget what they are suppose to build on the Porter County property. It's in the "Master Plan"... Its not have a Master Plan & too know the general lay out of what could be built there but it seems like its used as mostly prop to try and raise $ off of more then anything else. I think someone mention that property was suppose to be used for the student rec center and possibly where the "future" indoor track will be built.
I've never seen it in writing, but it's been widely discussed on campus that the parking garage is structurally unsound (a mysterious surprise after purchase) and that's why it has been closed. I believe that it was open for a time, and even advertised as men's basketball parking.
We've normally talked about the Porter site as the putative Fieldhouse. I think there's a vision that it could (additionally) host a soccer-specific competition field. But, likely both are projects looking for donors.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 12, 2017, 12:15:43 PM
Quote from: wh on April 12, 2017, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: 4throwfan on April 12, 2017, 09:59:36 AM
Seems that chairbacks on both sides of the lower bowl would help, along with significant addition to concessions and restrooms. The lines for both of those are ridiculous, even when there isn't a significant crowd. I also still go back to WH's post about parking. Seems that they should put down some gravel in the old Porter Hospital lot. Seems to me that giving prospective fans a place to park, sit without a backache, and snack and go to the john (without a 20 minute wait) should be the priorities for bringing in more fans (and their money).
As I mentioned before, the university took what was an "indoor-only" problem and compounded it by systematically eliminating available parking in every direction around the ARC. Someone commented in the "Facilities" thread that building new facilities on former parking lots and building new facilities without parking lots is part of the university's plan to transition to a "walking" campus. That's fine - for healthy 18-22 year old kids. It's not fine for the general public (your target market for basketball games) with an age range of 8-80. People are looking for ease of access, convenience, and limited exposure to the elements. For example, how many people are going to frequent a restaurant when every time they go they have to circle the neighborhood only to find a parking spot 2 or 3 blocks away (in winter time, no less). Same with going to the movies, or to the grocery store. And, finding a spot is only half the battle. When the game's over, busy people at the end of their day want to walk out to an adjacent parking lot, again with as little exposure to the elements, get in their car, and get home. Put another way, the fan "experience" should begin and end at the entrance to the building.
As someone else suggested, adding an expansive parking area on the SE corner of the old hospital grounds is a good idea. To cover the cost, I would make it a "pay" lot @ $5/vehicle. Trust me, people will flock to it. I would also turn the lot directly across the street to the south of the ARC into a premium pay lot ($10/vehicle). Trust me again, people will flock to it (including myself, other family members, friends). I would do the same for women's games. Up until 5 p.m., the lots can be used for general parking, just like the small lot adjacent to the west side of the ARC. People will love it. Attendance will pick up dramatically, and the university will have a new revenue source (plus increased revenues from ticket sales). Low risk - high reward.
I agree this would be a good move in theory but that parking lot is mainly used by the JR/SR students on campus who live in Guild Memorial Hall. Those students are already paying for parking passes that University forces every student who has a car on campus to purchase every year. I forget what the prices were when I was on campus a few years ago, but just did a quick search and they are $100 for a single semester or $180 for 2 semesters and $225 to include the summers. Not cheap to a college kid.
If the University started forcing students to start parking else where it would cause an uproar. There is no other parking lot "near" for the students in guild memorial.
Sorry for the long quote, but not sure how to break it up further. It sounds like people are arguing for an off-campus basketball facility, more or less. Or maybe campus adjacent but surrounded, arena style, by acres of parking. I guess that could maybe work on the edge of campus, with the parking on the far side of the basketball facility. I guess that could be, at least in part, the Porter site but it would preclude using it for anything else. No Fieldhouse, for example. In the interim it seems nice to have a big chunk of grass for recreational purposes, besides Eastgate. Maybe the 3D site could be a part of the solution, if we held onto it into an era where we really did want a new basketball facility? I'm not sure it's big enough for a moderate arena plus adequate parking.
In detail, remember that there is _already_ paid parking near the ARC. The lot south of the ARC is yours if you contribute to the Crusader Fund ($200 or more annually, tax deductible) and then pay an additional $100 for the season. I guess they do let the dorm residents leave their cars there, but they kick out staff and commuter students. The lots north and west of the ARC are yours if you join the Crusader Fund at a higher level ($1000 I think) and then pay $200 per season. A higher-level donation gets your a reserved spot in that west lot. That's all for, what, 18 or so home games?
So, there is paid parking available, about as close as you can imagine. But, it's not so cheap. If they were going to offer it for a single game at a time these prices would suggest they start at $15, maybe $20, a game for the south lot. I guess $60 or more for the better lots. I'm not sure either of those price points would get a lot of takers, and I bet they would raise eyebrows. But, maybe I'm wrong.
At the moment "appealing parking for donors to the program" seems like a more manageable sell. Maybe they need to market it better? But it's in all the season ticket brochures.
I'd not noticed the ARC Suite hospitality! That $1000/year Crusader Fund contribution makes you eligible. $250/season then gets you heavy hors d'oeuvres, dessert, guest speakers, and a cash bar! I did enjoy my half-time beer in Champaign during the NIT.
For those who don't like the walk (and in the winter, or for some for whom walking isn't so easy, I understand), would a shuttle from a remote lot, maybe behind the Union, be appealing?
For some people waiting for the shuttle would be a non-starter, as it would be faster to walk. But, the ADA Parking (in front of the student fitness center) does seem to fill up. And maybe some would be happy to wait (maybe in the Union? not sure if seating could be managed) for a shuttle.
As it stands now, I regularly do drop off older guests, and sometimes my whole family, in front of the ARC so that I'm the only one walking from the softball field, or Union, etc.
Quote from: covufan on April 11, 2017, 02:26:02 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 11, 2017, 12:43:34 PM
Paul dropping some knowledge and research:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/851850976545918977
Which means none of those teams have ever played in the ARC. That Bradley game was their last trip to Valpo, in Hilltop Gym... Valpo won it 73-55... and proceeded to only win 4 more games all year (4-18 to close out the season)
Only 2 rows of the south parking lot are designated "Gold members only," and they're usually half empty at game time. The athletic department can't be getting much revenue from it. The rest of the lot is open parking, but as I mentioned before there isn't a spot to be had an hour before game time. Students from anywhere and everywhere own that lot (including I'm sure sorority members who have no parking lot of their own). Students are no different than anyone else. They aren't going to walk on Valpo's "walking" campus if they don't have to.
Regarding parking, I always park either on LaPorte Avenue or in exposed lot that is attached to the old Porter Hospital garage. I parked there every game I attended this year. Yes, the walk sucks. But they do a good job of keeping that sidewalk clear (not much of a chore this past winter) and it is well lighted. I run with my son if I have to. I usually showed up no more than 15 minutes before tipoff, and it was never too crowded that I didn't get a parking spot.
But yes, it's a long walk and not convenient for anyone who isn't mobile. I liked the not-so-old days of parking in the "old tennis court" lot right behind the west goal post.
I'm really torn on the whole MVC vs. Horizon debate. I like the Horizon (which, when you really think about it, is an upgraded version of the old Mid-Con). I also see the merits of the MVC, namely a possibly more attractive home schedule. But when you think about it, would Valpo have better odds of winning the automatic bid in the Motor City Madness or in St. Louis? Although recent history doesn't present a positive picture, I think Valpo has better odds annually of being a contender/winning the Horizon League Tourney and the one bid.
Quote from: agibson on April 12, 2017, 03:02:54 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 12, 2017, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: Vinny on April 12, 2017, 12:33:20 PM
I'm still completely confused as to how and why the University purchased a piece of property (condemned parking garage) without performing basic due diligence.
Is the Parking garage really not in usable shape? I thought they just weren't using it because they never built anything in that area yet.
I forget what they are suppose to build on the Porter County property. It's in the "Master Plan"... Its not have a Master Plan & too know the general lay out of what could be built there but it seems like its used as mostly prop to try and raise $ off of more then anything else. I think someone mention that property was suppose to be used for the student rec center and possibly where the "future" indoor track will be built.
I've never seen it in writing, but it's been widely discussed on campus that the parking garage is structurally unsound (a mysterious surprise after purchase) and that's why it has been closed. I believe that it was open for a time, and even advertised as men's basketball parking.
We've normally talked about the Porter site as the putative Fieldhouse. I think there's a vision that it could (additionally) host a soccer-specific competition field. But, likely both are projects looking for donors.
In the Master Plan, the architect's conceptual drawings (panorama and aerial view) of the "Athletic District" of the campus 30 years from now sought to pull all athletic facilities into close proximity of the ARC.
>> The softball and tennis complexes were to be joined to the ARC with a paved walk of fame or something like that that started at the parking lot next to Brown Field and extended across McIntyre (supplanting some houses).
>> Baseball would be brought from East Gate to the area across Union where Kroenke Hall currently is.
>> The Porter hospital tract contains a Rec Center/Field House on the western-most sector of the property (along Garfield). The two buildings that still exist there would be taken down to make room.
>> Next to the Rec Center/Field house running north/south is a soccer stadium.
>> Labein Hall and the temporary building to the north of Brown Field would be razed.
>> Laporte Ave would end at Roosevelt Road
>> The ARC shows an expansion on the north side
>> The remaining footprint is shown with multiple athletic fields (assuming for intramurals).
>> The now unusable parking structure was incorporated as-is (unfortunately).
Note: No new additional parking near all of these venues was evident
Quote from: Valpo89 on April 12, 2017, 03:43:25 PM
Regarding parking, I always park either on LaPorte Avenue or in exposed lot that is attached to the old Porter Hospital garage. I parked there every game I attended this year. Yes, the walk sucks. But they do a good job of keeping that sidewalk clear (not much of a chore this past winter) and it is well lighted. I run with my son if I have to. I usually showed up no more than 15 minutes before tipoff, and it was never too crowded that I didn't get a parking spot.
But yes, it's a long walk and not convenient for anyone who isn't mobile. I liked the not-so-old days of parking in the "old tennis court" lot right behind the west goal post.
I'm really torn on the whole MVC vs. Horizon debate. I like the Horizon (which, when you really think about it, is an upgraded version of the old Mid-Con). I also see the merits of the MVC, namely a possibly more attractive home schedule. But when you think about it, would Valpo have better odds of winning the automatic bid in the Motor City Madness or in St. Louis? Although recent history doesn't present a positive picture, I think Valpo has better odds annually of being a contender/winning the Horizon League Tourney and the one bid.
I'm with you there, HL isn't bad to me either. MVC would need Belmont + Murray State and us to be a slam dunk from my POV.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 12, 2017, 05:52:34 PM
Quote from: Valpo89 on April 12, 2017, 03:43:25 PM
Regarding parking, I always park either on LaPorte Avenue or in exposed lot that is attached to the old Porter Hospital garage. I parked there every game I attended this year. Yes, the walk sucks. But they do a good job of keeping that sidewalk clear (not much of a chore this past winter) and it is well lighted. I run with my son if I have to. I usually showed up no more than 15 minutes before tipoff, and it was never too crowded that I didn't get a parking spot.
But yes, it's a long walk and not convenient for anyone who isn't mobile. I liked the not-so-old days of parking in the "old tennis court" lot right behind the west goal post.
I'm really torn on the whole MVC vs. Horizon debate. I like the Horizon (which, when you really think about it, is an upgraded version of the old Mid-Con). I also see the merits of the MVC, namely a possibly more attractive home schedule. But when you think about it, would Valpo have better odds of winning the automatic bid in the Motor City Madness or in St. Louis? Although recent history doesn't present a positive picture, I think Valpo has better odds annually of being a contender/winning the Horizon League Tourney and the one bid.
I'm with you there, HL isn't bad to me either. MVC would need Belmont + Murray State and us to be a slam dunk from my POV.
I agree. The tournament change notwithstanding, the HL made good decisions in adding Oakland and N. Kentucky, and I really like all the coaching changes. I even enjoy following the other message boards. There's a lot of serious fans around the league. The HL has definitely been good for Valpo in many ways.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 12, 2017, 05:52:34 PM
Quote from: Valpo89 on April 12, 2017, 03:43:25 PM
Regarding parking, I always park either on LaPorte Avenue or in exposed lot that is attached to the old Porter Hospital garage. I parked there every game I attended this year. Yes, the walk sucks. But they do a good job of keeping that sidewalk clear (not much of a chore this past winter) and it is well lighted. I run with my son if I have to. I usually showed up no more than 15 minutes before tipoff, and it was never too crowded that I didn't get a parking spot.
But yes, it's a long walk and not convenient for anyone who isn't mobile. I liked the not-so-old days of parking in the "old tennis court" lot right behind the west goal post.
I'm really torn on the whole MVC vs. Horizon debate. I like the Horizon (which, when you really think about it, is an upgraded version of the old Mid-Con). I also see the merits of the MVC, namely a possibly more attractive home schedule. But when you think about it, would Valpo have better odds of winning the automatic bid in the Motor City Madness or in St. Louis? Although recent history doesn't present a positive picture, I think Valpo has better odds annually of being a contender/winning the Horizon League Tourney and the one bid.
I'm with you there, HL isn't bad to me either. MVC would need Belmont + Murray State and us to be a slam dunk from my POV.
Agree with you there. After all of the previous discussions, I concluded that a single replacement bid to VU would not be in our best interest. On the other hand, if they expand and go with 3 including us -- slam dunk yes. After losing two major contributors to the advancement of their brand, the MVC needs to make a splash and regain lost momentum.
For me it's more than just motor city madness but if the conference tourney was in Chicago, that would help my feelings towards the HL and start the change of heart.
Oh yeah, and I like playing schools with similar enrollment, similar acceptance expectations and similar academic rankings. I also prefer dormitory campuses over commuter campuses.
We rank 2nd or 3rd in bball budgets in the HL? We would rank in the middle of the pack in the mvc. I like that. That raises the bar. We dominated mens bball in the midcon. Made the jump UP. Dominated in mens bball in the HL like Butler before. Very similar winning percentage and number of league titles....? Well, lets make the jump UP again.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 12, 2017, 10:02:29 PM
For me it's more than just motor city madness but if the conference tourney was in Chicago, that would help my feelings towards the HL and start the change of heart.
Oh yeah, and I like playing schools with similar enrollment, similar acceptance expectations and similar academic rankings. I also prefer dormitory campuses over commuter campuses.
We rank 2nd or 3rd in bball budgets in the HL? We would rank in the middle of the pack in the mvc. I like that. That raises the bar. We dominated mens bball in the midcon. Made the jump UP. Dominated in mens bball in the HL like Butler before. Very similar winning percentage and number of league titles....? Well, lets make the jump UP again.
This ranks up there with looking for apartments near US Cellular Field, Mick!!! That was a good idea too...right!?!? 😉
Paul did a good interview with an Iowa radio station yesterday. Talked about Valpo's possibilities and merits for being in the MVC. Worth a listen.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/852569990641397760
Hey all, Murray State Racer fan here. Just wanted say hi and say that hearing Murray State and you guys at Valpo mentioned as possible additions to the MVC is really exciting for both programs and fan bases.
Did want to take this opportunity to clear some things up. If you guys look at the attendance averages from the last five years, Murray State has averaged around 4500 fans per year. You guys over the same time averaged just over 3000. Neither is bad, and both teams would be assets to the MVC.
Look forward to seeing how it works out. Perhaps we will see each other in St Louis with an NCAA bid on the line.
Yes, over the 5 years, you are correct. However, your last 2 seasons were closer to 3,200 or 3,300, which is what most news outlets are reporting. Your highest attendance was 2011-2012 and 2012-2013, where it was around 5,500 - 6,000. So it is really good for you guys when you are winning.
You're correct. And frankly, between Valpo and Murray State the difference in the numbers of fans that show up doesn't matter. Valpo and Murray St are some of the best mid major programs in the country. If the MVC is serious about being a basketball conference, they'll take both and avoid the UICs and UMKCs of the world.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 13, 2017, 09:48:43 PM
You're correct. And frankly, between Valpo and Murray State the difference in the numbers of fans that show up doesn't matter. Valpo and Murray St are some of the best mid major programs in the country. If the MVC is serious about being a basketball conference, they'll take both and avoid the UICs and UMKCs of the world.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 13, 2017, 08:52:21 PM
Hey all, Murray State Racer fan here. Just wanted say hi and say that hearing Murray State and you guys at Valpo mentioned as possible additions to the MVC is really exciting for both programs and fan bases.
Did want to take this opportunity to clear some things up. If you guys look at the attendance averages from the last five years, Murray State has averaged around 4500 fans per year. You guys over the same time averaged just over 3000. Neither is bad, and both teams would be assets to the MVC.
Look forward to seeing how it works out. Perhaps we will see each other in St Louis with an NCAA bid on the line.
Welcome to the board, Joe. We have great respect for the Racers. Everyone up here agrees that a move to the MVC would be much more exciting if our 2 programs go together.
And I am hoping they will add Belmont as well. What a kick ass mid major conference that would be.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 13, 2017, 11:20:45 PM
And I am hoping they will add Belmont as well. What a kick ass mid major conference that would be.
Part of me wants 12 teams in the MVC because it increases are chances but part of me does not want 12. With 12 teams it would force the MVC into divisions which prevent a "natural" MidMajor Regular Season Conference schedule and also doesn't allow for a "true" conf reg season champ. By have 12 it cause 2 too many games and too short of a OOC schedule. It hurts teams ability to schedule RPI boost out of conference games and also makes signing up for OOC Tournament much more difficult (Vegas Tourney: BYU, Alabama, etc.).
10-11 teams seems to be the magic number for Non-power MidMajor conferences in terms of scheduling. In college basketball you really don't need even number teams like you do in football. A few media folks like Mark Adams said the MVC is likely to go 10 or 12. To be honest I'd be ok with divisions as long as we get an invite. Either way its a win for Valpo if we joined (and for the MVC).
Valpo, Murray St and Belmont would definitely be exciting.
Belmont is a quality program. They have a Hall of Fame coach, but despite their success they have pretty lackluster fan support, which is surprising in a city the size of Nashville and a brand new arena.
Aside from that, you guys are right. Exciting college basketball with programs who demand success.
When exactly is the MVC coming to Valpo for their campus visit?
What is there to see that they didn't see 4 years ago, other than a new track and systematically eliminating all general parking for the university's flagship sport? Or, ml might show them pictures of the air conditioning unit they plan to install in Hilltop. Maybe put on fancy hard hats and take them up to the roof for a ribbon cutting ceremony for a new rubber membrane roof coating.
Or, they could drive them around an absolutely drop-dead gorgeous campus, that looks better than it ever has with construction activity going on as we speak, talk about the university's incredible academic reputation, etc. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much impact that will have on representatives from the Missouri Valley (ATHLETIC) Conference.
This MVC expansion decision has really been hush hush and the speculation has been all over the map.
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/the-latest-on-missouri-valley-expansion/
If history is our teacher, the league has formed or is forming profiles of prospective programs. After evaluating a number of criteria, league officials will no doubt conduct campus visits to evaluate facilities and campus culture. To receive an invitation to join the Valley, a prospective program would receive seven positive votes from the nine university presidents.
As Commissioner Doug Elgin told us in March, this has not caught the league unaware, so league officials had some of the preliminary work done prior to the announcement of Wichita State's joining the American Athletic Conference.
The four year old visit may do but it seems some at the MVC may want to see the campus again.
Quote from: wh on April 14, 2017, 08:41:10 AMOr, they could drive them around an absolutely drop-dead gorgeous campus, that looks better than it ever has with construction activity going on as we speak, talk about the university's incredible academic reputation, etc. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much impact that will have on representatives from the Missouri Valley (ATHLETIC) Conference.
You mean _walk_ them around campus! Welcome to the 21st century!
(OK - they still can drive them around much of campus, probably enough to get a feel for the place. Or could use the golf carts, etc.)
A pretty time of year to visit campus - it's greened up nicely. Not sure if all the flowers are out yet, but some are.
Only 15 hour old. Sounds interesting, but not for $10:
Murray State-to-MVC discussion comes with moving parts
http://www.paducahsun.com/sports/local/041417_PS_MSU-MVC-Column-2578627
Here you go...(Pardon the formatting)
"The last six days have had both Missouri Valley Conference fans and the Murray State faithful in full frenzy.
Are the Racers truly considering a jump to "The Valley"? Could Murray State, a founder of the Ohio Valley, really be off to greener pastures?
And the best answer I have at this point is: maybe. Or maybe not.
The only news that myself and my fellow media members is that we don't know what is going to happen. And we don't know for several reasons — most of them for good measure.
First, MVC Commissioner Doug Elgin has likely taken a page out of the Big 12's book on "what not to do" when it comes to courting potential conference affiliates, instead keeping things much more discreet, thorough and swift. And that's good. When this all blows over, teams that either did or did not make the cut (Valparaiso, MSU, Belmont, University of Missouri-Kansas City, et al.) will either be packing their bags for St. Louis or returning home by either declining an invitation or who were never invited to the party to begin with, and they will have to make nice with their current conference.
Second, the Missouri Valley already has a blueprint timetable in place from the last time they replaced a major member. When Creighton left for the Big East following the 2012-13 season, the MVC didn't announce the addition of Loyola until a full month had passed, and that was just one team. Many different scenarios — adding one team, adding two teams, adding three teams or just standing pat at nine teams — have all been reportedly discussed within the ranks of Valley officials, and the different amalgams and permutations have to be deeply calculated for both fiscal and feasible standpoints.
And last, the schools constantly ensconced in this centrifuge of rumors have been eerily quiet about their supposed interest or lack thereof, and rightfully so. Guys like MSU Athletic Director Allen Ward and his president, Dr. Bob Davies, have more people to answer to than a few hungry fans interested in the latest gossip. They have budgets to balance, alumni to support and coaching staffs who need to be in the loop if this thing does — or does not — happen. I am certain this is going on with the Crusaders, the Bruins, the Kangaroos and any other program the Missouri Valley deems fit for its conference.
The time for media knowing will come with due process.
What we do already know is this:
— Any moves made will have to be purely based on the trickle-down economics revolving men's basketball. The departure of Wichita State — a program that regularly drew more than 10,000 fans to home games last year — leaves a considerable void in both revenue shares and potential television deals for the future of the conference. The Shockers happen to be one of the great college basketball storylines over the last few seasons, as long-time head coach Gregg Marshall has taken them from obscurity to prominence in relatively quick fashion. Elgin and his staff aren't going to be so quick to replace them, and will give due diligence to replace the money — and interest — they generated.
— According to OVC Bylaws on the Resignation of Membership (Section 4.5.3), "a member institution failing to provide the minimum two years required written notice shall pay the Conference a sum of $1 million in addition to forfeiting both its Conference year-end and OVC Basketball Pool distributions during the final year of OVC membership."
— As part of the NCAA's one-time revenue distribution plan totaling $200 million to Division I schools, Murray State is set to receive $588,597.
— A move to the Missouri Valley would naturally create new costs in travel for any interested school. The average one-way distance from the front door of the CFSB Center to a school in the OVC is 188.7 miles, while in the MVC it jumps to 329.5 miles. The number of road trips for men's and women's basketball also jumps from six in the OVC to nine in the Valley, potentially, though other sports such as baseball and softball fluctuate due to certain MVC schools not having those programs.
— Murray State currently has the second-largest budget in the Ohio Valley ($15,765,259 in total revenue and $15,139,758 in expense during 2014-15), but would be the second-smallest budget in the Valley in 2017-18.
— Since the 2003-04 season, the Racers men's basketball program owns a 10-10 record against Missouri Valley opponents.
— Though in a steady decline since the departure of Creighton, attendance for the Missouri Valley Conference Tournament is nearly ten-fold that of the Ohio Valley's annual bid to the NCAA Tournament. Hosted at the Scottrade Center in St. Louis and aptly dubbed as "Arch Madness," the five-session ordeal serviced just under 47,000 basketball fans this last season. Total attendance for the OVC's four sessions in 2017 was 5,702.
— According to MVC Joint Committee minutes from the June 2, 2016 session, the conference's 2017 Basketball Pool Distribution was expected to reach a record $6.1 million, with the fund projected to exceed $6 million in 2018 and 2019 assuming MVC teams "earn at least two units per year." The MVC received a payout of $5.73 million from the April 2016 NCAA Basketball Pool Distribution, based on the 21 units earned from MVC teams in the previous six NCAA Tournaments.
A definition of a "unit" by the NCAA: "One unit is awarded to each institution participating in each game, except first game played by automatic qualifiers and the championship game. Units are retained by the conference in which they are earned. All units earned by each conference within a six-year rolling period are included in the distribution calculation."
A "unit" is approximately worth $266,183 in 2017, with a total distribution equaling $160.5 million (~600 units) rolling out this month.
— From these same minutes, it was reported that the committee reviewed the 2015-16 findings of "The Valley on ESPN3," which will "continue to serve as a baseline for comparison in future years." The number of total productions from the Valley in Year One — both linear and digital — were 259 for men's programming and 251 for women's programming. The CFSB Center and other Murray State sporting venues, which regularly broadcast efficiently through the OVC Digital Network, are currently prepared for any switch to ESPN3. In comparison, the OVCDN reported more than 800 events were streamed live throughout the 2015-16 athletic season.
So then these are the questions that have precipitously formed in the echo chamber:
— While CBS's intrepid reporter Jon Rothstein first announced the Valley was interested in adding both Valpo and Murray State to the league, to what extent was/is this interest? Can we gauge it percentage-wise? And on the flip side, just how interested are Ward, Davies and the Board of Regents at Murray State? Was this even on the radar of Racer Athletics after an average year in basketball and the spring sports schedule firmly in focus?
— Where does a discussion for Murray State football fit into all of this? The Missouri Valley Football Conference, largely considered one of the best FCS leagues in the country, operates closely within the MVC but is more like a first-cousin. It has a separate commissioner (Patty Viverito since 1982) and several notable members (North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Youngstown State) not currently affiliated with the MVC. And get rid of football? You must be kidding. The Racers, under the youthful tutelage of Mitch Stewart, have three major payouts lined up for the next three seasons in games at Louisville, Kentucky and Georgia. It's not happening.
— Furthermore, where do all of the other sports at Murray State fit, particularly on the women's side? Soccer, tennis, softball, volleyball and golf have all seen considerable improvements that have led to deep postseason runs and OVC titles. What about rifle, perhaps on the brink of a national championship? Where do baseball, women's basketball and track and field fit in a move to the Missouri Valley? Does recruitment increase across the board because of an expanded footprint? Or does someone get left behind for the sake of basketball glory and prestige?
— I mentioned "greener pastures" earlier, and that brings up another major talking point. Is the MVC actually a better place for Murray State overall? Does the city of Murray — with a population under 20,000 and a student body hovering around 11,000 — fit into the mold of MVC schools that include small private programs like Drake and Evansville, as well as mammoth public schools like Loyola (16,437 enrolled in Chicago), Illinois State (20,706 enrolled in Normal) and Missouri State (24,116 enrolled in Springfield)?
It is these things — and many, many more — perhaps keeping the phones busy between Murray and St. Louis."
In all seriousness, just the fact the MVC has so far managed to have zero substantive leaks on this process makes me want to join them.
Agreed.
Just for the record: Loyola is a private(Catholic) institution.
Lol noted
Racers and the Crusaders...there has to be a connection there somewhere...maybe in the MVC?
— According to OVC Bylaws on the Resignation of Membership (Section 4.5.3), "a member institution failing to provide the minimum two years required written notice shall pay the Conference a sum of $1 million in addition to forfeiting both its Conference year-end and OVC Basketball Pool distributions during the final year of OVC membership
$1 million for leaving without a 2-year notice is a staggering number, and it applys to both Murray State and Belmont. When Butler left the HL the penalty was $50k. If I recall correctly, the conference raised it to $100k thereafter.
The only way this will work is if the MVC pay the penalties from the financial windfall they will be receiving from Wichita State leaving without notice and leaving their NCAA tournament shares behind.
Didn't Butler give up their NCAA tourney shares too?
I would think the MVC would float whoever they invite a canvas sack with a dollar sign on it full of cash to help with the exit fees.
Anybody know what/if the HL has a fee?
Quote from: M on April 15, 2017, 08:25:19 AM
Didn't Butler give up their NCAA tourney shares too?
I would think the MVC would float whoever they invite a canvas sack with a dollar sign on it full of cash to help with the exit fees.
From HL Bi-Laws (2010):
3.2 Membership
3.2.1 Renewal. Upon expiration of the initial three-year membership term, membership shall be automatically renewed thereafter for one(1)-year periods unless the member institution has submitted two years advance written notice of withdrawal to the League of ce and the other member institutions. Such written notice shall be effective only if received on or before July 1 two (2) years preceding the proposed withdrawal date.
3.2.1.1 Withdrawal Payment. A member institution that elects to terminate League membership without compliance with the notice of withdrawal set forth in Operating Regulation 3.2.1 above shall be obligated to pay liquidated damages to the League of $50,000 before the effective date of withdrawal from the League. Payment of the liquidated damages may be excused only upon a two-thirds approval vote of those remaining members eligible to vote.
3.2.1.2 Forfeiture of Revenue. Any member institution that elects to withdraw its membership from the League shall automatically forfeit its share of revenue from the sources listed in Operating Regulation 8.3 effective upon its withdrawal announcement.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ilch/genrel/auto_pdf/HLHandbook.pdf
As I mentioned above I think the league may have raised the penalty to $100K after Butler left. Either way it's not a big sum for the MVC to cover. If, however, they add Valpo, Murray State, and Belmont next year, they would have to cover conference penalties totaling more than $2 Million. That's a huge chunk of of change for a mid major conference with limited resources.
WH, I floated a possible bargaining chip earlier and this seems like a good place to ask again whether this might be a way to mitigate the departure fees (to what degree I don't feel qualified to even estimate). Going back to mid majors having difficulty scheduling other RPI-worthy mids, could the agreement to do a OVC/MVC/HL CHALLENGE (e.g, top 2 or 3 from each conference duke it out in the OOC season) turn this into something where all three leagues get some benefit from the realignment? Or is this irrational?
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 15, 2017, 11:12:27 AM
WH, I floated a possible bargaining chip earlier and this seems like a good place to ask again whether this might be a way to mitigate the departure fees (to what degree I don't feel qualified to even estimate). Going back to mid majors having difficulty scheduling other RPI-worthy mids, could the agreement to do a OVC/MVC/HL CHALLENGE (e.g, top 2 or 3 from each conference duke it out in the OOC season) turn this into something where all three leagues get some benefit from the realignment? Or is this irrational?
Truthfully, I didn't give your earlier post the consideration I should have. To your point, why does everything always have to be about money to the exclusion of something more important - win-win scheduling arrangements between mid-major conferences? It's a great thought.
The only possible caveat I see is conference switching seems always to leave hard feelings between the parties. The conferences and programs involved would have to rise above that and work together. Could be easier said than done.
And then there are the lawyers (no offense if you are a barrister :). )
No offense either, Paul ;)
Quote from: wh on April 15, 2017, 10:19:52 AMAs I mentioned above I think the league may have raised the penalty to $100K after Butler left. Either way it's not a big sum for the MVC to cover. If, however, they add Valpo, Murray State, and Belmont next year, they would have to cover conference penalties totaling more than $2 Million. That's a huge chunk of of change for a mid major conference with limited resources.
The Oakland AD in 2013 confirmed that the Summit League exit fee they were to pay was $250,000 and that the Horizon League entry fee was $882,000. Both of which were to come from "external sources".
It would be shocking if the Horizon League has left theirs as low as even $100,000.
Quote from: agibson on April 15, 2017, 02:27:26 PM
It would be shocking if the Horizon League has left theirs as low as even $100,000.
I found the following post from 2013 by some guy named agibson that answers the question:
Quote from: agibson on April 14, 2013, 08:51:33 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 14, 2013, 06:42:20 PM
Just to cover all bases, if Loyola is jumping immediately, I presume they'll be paying a penalty like Butler did (also the teams who left the CAA early to jump to the A-10 last year -- it's all the rage these days)?
I don't know about championships. It seems a little mean spirited to cut them out of this year's.
But, they're presumably forfeiting their HL NCAA shares. (I wonder if they'll get any of the MVC historical shares?) And, there's now the $1M Horizon League exit fee, much more than what Butler had to pay.
So, apparently Valpo, Murray State and Belmont are all subject to $1 Million early exit fees.
Belmont switching conferences? Don't count on it
Mike Organ | USA TODAY NETWORK - Tennessee
Updated 1 hour ago
http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/2017/04/15/belmont-switching-conferences-mvc/100382846/
Suddenly, if these figures ($3million) are etched in stone, no way MVC even considers 3 schools. And now I am thinking only one at best. This is sobbering.
Quote from: wh on April 15, 2017, 04:52:48 PM
Quote from: agibson on April 15, 2017, 02:27:26 PM
It would be shocking if the Horizon League has left theirs as low as even $100,000.
I found the following post from 2013 by some guy named agibson that answers the question:
Quote from: agibson on April 14, 2013, 08:51:33 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 14, 2013, 06:42:20 PM
Just to cover all bases, if Loyola is jumping immediately, I presume they'll be paying a penalty like Butler did (also the teams who left the CAA early to jump to the A-10 last year -- it's all the rage these days)?
I don't know about championships. It seems a little mean spirited to cut them out of this year's.
But, they're presumably forfeiting their HL NCAA shares. (I wonder if they'll get any of the MVC historical shares?) And, there's now the $1M Horizon League exit fee, much more than what Butler had to pay.
So, apparently Valpo, Murray State and Belmont are all subject to $1 Million early exit fees.
This has to mean that Belmont again turned them down, or they were told that they are not a top choice. The comment by their AD is going above what you would say if you were thinking of leaving.
Quote from: valpotx on April 15, 2017, 09:54:25 PM
This has to mean that Belmont again turned them down, or they were told that they are not a top choice. The comment by their AD is going above what you would say if you were thinking of leaving.
I think we've come full circle back to the
Jon Rothstein article from April 7th:
MVC targeting Valpo, Murray State as additions following Wichita State's departure
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-targeting-valpo-murray-state-additions-following-wichita-states-departure/
Will Football Play a Role in Missouri Valley Conference Expansion?
College Sports Journal
POSTED ON APRIL 15, 2017 BY KENT SCHMIDT
http://www.college-sports-journal.com/will-football-play-a-role-in-missouri-valley-conference-expansion/
Quote from: wh on April 15, 2017, 11:02:21 PM
Quote from: valpotx on April 15, 2017, 09:54:25 PM
This has to mean that Belmont again turned them down, or they were told that they are not a top choice. The comment by their AD is going above what you would say if you were thinking of leaving.
I think we've come full circle back to the
Jon Rothstein article from April 7th:
MVC targeting Valpo, Murray State as additions following Wichita State's departure
https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-targeting-valpo-murray-state-additions-following-wichita-states-departure/
Don't think this has been posted, if not, worth the listen. This is a podcast by a couple of Murray State guys along the lines of Union Street Hoops (but not as good! ;D)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVpaT2sG2wM
Quote from: wh on April 16, 2017, 04:59:22 AM
Will Football Play a Role in Missouri Valley Conference Expansion?
College Sports Journal
POSTED ON APRIL 15, 2017 BY KENT SCHMIDT
http://www.college-sports-journal.com/will-football-play-a-role-in-missouri-valley-conference-expansion/
Whether he nails it or not, Schmidt did an interesting and thorough analysis.
His premise: MVC goes to 12 members but needs to also maintain balance in the MVFC so they will add 1 FB school and 2 non-FB schools.
His bets: Murray State (FB), Valpo and UMKC (non-FB). He provides rationale for this. He also almost ignores Belmont -- could be as a result of what Tex pointed out as a pretty firm no from the Belmont AD.
The plot thickens :coffeetime:
I have said it before, but I just don't get why some MVC fans are enamored with UMKC. They have never proven to draw any type of fan passion/attendance, even when the Mid-Con tourney was in their city! It is a commuter school, and many people don't even know that they play sports...
That's actually me and my buddy doing the podcast. It's a zero budget kinda thing. (As in, we eat lunch together once a week. We should record some of this.) There is another, more polished podcast that spun off of a radio show that I will try to post. I would have posted both, but wasn't sure that you guys would care to hear either.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=T6oJk8mOzJ4
UMKC is Loyola all over again. Though to read their message board, you wouldn't know it. For all the talk about upgrading facilities for you guys, UMKC uses a building from the 1930s (Art Deco, quite beautiful).
Is omaha a better candidate than umkc?
At the end of the midwestern mid major conference shake up, umkc will be in a different conference. The kangaroos will be in either the mvc, (can't believe I said that) back into the summit or in the HL (can't believe I said that either) one thing is certain their time in the WAC is coming to an end
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 16, 2017, 12:53:46 PM
Is omaha a better candidate than umkc?
At the end of the midwestern mid major conference shake up, umkc will be in a different conference. The kangaroos will be in either the mvc, (can't believe I said that) back into the summit or in the HL (can't believe I said that either) one thing is certain their time in the WAC is coming to an end
I would think so. Brand new facility and a commitment to stepping up to D1. Omaha has more of a Northern Kentucky feel, while UMKC has proven itself to be more like IUPUI...along for the ride but not really committed.
My only concern with Omaha would be them dealing with the same issues UWM has in relation to Marquette...no matter what they do, they'll always be little brother to Creighton.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
let's go outside of the box here - how about Stephen F. Austin? Good academics, beautiful campus, success in basketball, lots of alums...
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 16, 2017, 04:34:21 PM
let's go outside of the box here - how about Stephen F. Austin? Good academics, beautiful campus, success in basketball, lots of alums...
[/quote
Um, #76 ranked regional university in the West.
Be careful, as I believe that his wife graduated from SFA :).
Belmont seems to be out of the equation, which helps us a lot. They either stay at 9 for now, or someone gets matched up with Loyola (hopefully us, and not UIC). The HL will add UMKC in place of whoever leaves.
Ok, I will let that discussion go. I will still sat that Brad Underwood will be a better college coach than Bryce Drew, unless the Illinois alums or administration mess it up
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 16, 2017, 04:34:21 PM
let's go outside of the box here - how about Stephen F. Austin? Good academics, beautiful campus, success in basketball, lots of alums...
Also outside the MVC footprint. ::). But the FB stadium is great. ;)
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 14, 2017, 04:50:46 PM
In all seriousness, just the fact the MVC has so far managed to have zero substantive leaks on this process makes me want to join them.
Maybe there's no leaks because nobody cares enough to dig into the situation and pry information out of people...
Quote from: a3uge on April 17, 2017, 10:11:00 AM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 14, 2017, 04:50:46 PM
In all seriousness, just the fact the MVC has so far managed to have zero substantive leaks on this process makes me want to join them.
Maybe there's no leaks because nobody cares enough to dig into the situation and pry information out of people...
Nah there are plenty of beat reporters in the MVC (WAY more then the HL) trying to break the story. Quite a few fans from the MVC and the potential schools want to know as well.
It really is a bit shocking that there hasn't been a single leak yet. The MVC office and the MVC schools Athletic Departments have really kept this tight lipped.
Does the MVC have an entry fee that Valpo will also be required to pay? As one example, Oakland paid $882,000 to join the Horizon League:
https://twitter.com/PaulKampe/status/331890575383093248
Quote from: wh on April 17, 2017, 11:14:21 AM
Does the MVC have an entry fee that Valpo will also be required to pay? As one example, Oakland paid $882,000 to join the Horizon League:
https://twitter.com/PaulKampe/status/331890575383093248
[Note: Please be aware that this is kind of a snarky question with no basis in fact, just what's been speculated or mentioned on this string.] When you add up the
possible HL exit fee and the
possible MVC entry fee, that comes to maybe almost $2 million. What would $2 million in improvements to the ARC get us?
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 17, 2017, 11:44:06 AM
Quote from: wh on April 17, 2017, 11:14:21 AM
Does the MVC have an entry fee that Valpo will also be required to pay? As one example, Oakland paid $882,000 to join the Horizon League:
https://twitter.com/PaulKampe/status/331890575383093248
[Note: Please be aware that this is kind of a snarky question with no basis in fact, just what's been speculated or mentioned on this string.] When you add up the possible HL exit fee and the possible MVC entry fee, that comes to maybe almost $2 million. What would $2 million in improvements to the ARC get us?
Good question but $2 million would probably be for "Minor" improvements. Would take much more money to renovate the ARC the way they'd like to in the future.
Also one thing to keep in mind is that I'd have to think Mark Labarbera & President Heckler have had a few donors they could call about the possibility of changing Conferences. We almost made that jump a few years ago (when the costs were lower) but they should have known this could be a real possibility so I'd hope they've planned to make this leap financially if it was the right move.
Quote from: wh on April 15, 2017, 04:52:48 PMI found the following post from 2013 by some guy named agibson that answers the question:
Nice! Maybe some day he'll learn to cite his sources.
If I had to guess, I'd suspect that negotiations are ongoing and all parties are operating under an NDA, hence the lack of leaks. One would assume that if the MVC presidents had decided to stand pat at 9 teams during their emergency meeting over a week ago, that would've been announced/leaked by now, since there'd be no reason not to disclose that - in fact, it'd be preferable to them to do so if that was the decision.
I've also wondered if the Easter holiday played into the lack of any news last week, since two of the rumored targets are religiously-affiliated schools that were closed on Friday. Might have pushed back the timeline a few days.
Saw ml at the Post Office. Thought about asking him to blink once if we're staying and twice if we're going; instead, we became ships that pass in the night.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 17, 2017, 12:32:37 PM
I've also wondered if the Easter holiday played into the lack of any news last week, since two of the rumored targets are religiously-affiliated schools that were closed on Friday. Might have pushed back the timeline a few days.
Hey!! If our athletes can play on Easter then our administrators can negotiate on Easter!! ;)
On my iMac this thread goes 48 pages deep. The list of threads under the topic Valpo Basketball is only 24 pages deep. I can't recall any single thread having this much action. There are 1176 replies and it has been viewed 89,519 times. It looks like no other thread (digging back only the first 10 pages of Valpo Basketball) comes close to this one in either replies or views. Just thought that interesting.
Paul Oren is about to get on a North Dakota State Radio station talking about Valpo possibly joining the MVC if you want to give it a listen.
http://radio.securenetsystems.net/v5/KQWBAM
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/854082665800249345
Interesting conversation... good job Paul! Nice plug for USHoops!
NDSU has no chance of being invited for all sports. I didn't listen, but those fans are delusional if they think that will happen any time soon.
Quote from: wh on April 17, 2017, 03:14:27 PM
Saw ml at the Post Office. Thought about asking him to blink once if we're staying and twice if we're going; instead, we became ships that pass in the night.
The Murray State Athletic Director went on record this afternoon that MSU has not been invited by the MVC, at least not yet.
I wouldn't think much of it at this point.
Quote from: valpopal on April 17, 2017, 06:37:12 PM
Quote from: wh on April 17, 2017, 03:14:27 PM
Saw ml at the Post Office. Thought about asking him to blink once if we're staying and twice if we're going; instead, we became ships that pass in the night.
The Murray State Athletic Director went on record this afternoon that MSU has not been invited by the MVC, at least not yet.
Ah, but did be say that MSU has no interest in any move and that they committed to the OVC?
Might this news bring us back around to Jimmy Lemke's prediction from April 7th:
The schools. Omaha-UMKC-Valpo. Those are the ones on the docket.
Unless the docket has changed since yesterday, which I suppose is possible.
Yes, Jimmy was wrong about UIC going to the MVC instead of Loyola, but I know from following their board that he does have contacts and has a pretty darn good batting average.
Quote from: wh on April 17, 2017, 08:11:28 PM
Might this news bring us back around to Jimmy Lemke's prediction from April 7th:
The schools. Omaha-UMKC-Valpo. Those are the ones on the docket.
Unless the docket has changed since yesterday, which I suppose is possible.
Yes, Jimmy was wrong about UIC going to the MVC instead of Loyola, but I know from following their board that he does have contacts and has a pretty darn good batting average.
UIC (public) would have likely got the invite if WSU (public) left before Creighton did a few years ago. The MVC was dead set on "getting into" (FAIL) the Chicago Market a few years ago thats why they let in Loyola. (Valpo gets more Chicago sports media pub then Loyola the last 3-4 years) UIC got a serious look a few years ago.
As for UMKC. I wouldn't even want them in the Horizon League (not trying be harsh, just honest...). They are slashing budgets and basketball success is not great or consistent. The market is the only thing appealing about UMKC but the problem is that not many follow them and doesn't get much if any media buzz there. Kansas City is a Professional Sports town and not a college town. Same goes for Chicago. I've been told that DePaul was "bigger" (hotter ticket in town) before the Jordan Bulls years during the Ray Meyer/(early) Joey Meyer years. DePaul has completely and utterly fallen off the Chicago sports scene map.
Omaha is interesting. Rising program but not proven yet. Never even had 20 win season yet. Never made the NCAA tourney yet. Nice facilities. But if Omaha makes that jump and makes the NCAA Tourney its only a matter of time before they lose their coach (Homer type coaches are very rare). They've only had one D1 coach in their basketball history. Some risk with that move and I'm not convinced they'll be able to compete right away at the MVC level. They may struggle with that transition.
I really think Valpo, Belmont and Murray State are the best options.
I should point out that Belmont has only had one coach their entire time in D1.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 17, 2017, 03:58:35 PM
On my iMac this thread goes 48 pages deep. The list of threads under the topic Valpo Basketball is only 24 pages deep. I can't recall any single thread having this much action. There are 1176 replies and it has been viewed 89,519 times. It looks like no other thread (digging back only the first 10 pages of Valpo Basketball) comes close to this one in either replies or views. Just thought that interesting.
Albeit half of these posts were in 2013, and half this year.
Still, even as two threads, it's pretty long.
Quote from: bsmith21 on April 17, 2017, 10:47:45 PM
so to conclude we really don't know anything more than we dI'd before this thread blew up. We might or might not be in the MVC next year
...and we might or might not join along with Murray State and/or Belmont, or UMKC and Omaha, or alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzsWxPLIOo
Quote from: agibson on April 17, 2017, 09:13:22 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 17, 2017, 03:58:35 PM
On my iMac this thread goes 48 pages deep. The list of threads under the topic Valpo Basketball is only 24 pages deep. I can't recall any single thread having this much action. There are 1176 replies and it has been viewed 89,519 times. It looks like no other thread (digging back only the first 10 pages of Valpo Basketball) comes close to this one in either replies or views. Just thought that interesting.
Albeit half of these posts were in 2013, and half this year.
Still, even as two threads, it's pretty long.
The "More Stats (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?action=stats)" link on the front page confirms it.
Quote from: valpo04 on April 18, 2017, 11:23:59 AM
Quote from: agibson on April 17, 2017, 09:13:22 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 17, 2017, 03:58:35 PM
On my iMac this thread goes 48 pages deep. The list of threads under the topic Valpo Basketball is only 24 pages deep. I can't recall any single thread having this much action. There are 1176 replies and it has been viewed 89,519 times. It looks like no other thread (digging back only the first 10 pages of Valpo Basketball) comes close to this one in either replies or views. Just thought that interesting.
Albeit half of these posts were in 2013, and half this year.
Still, even as two threads, it's pretty long.
The "More Stats (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?action=stats)" link on the front page confirms it.
Awesome. I didn't know that "More Stats" page existed. Not surprising to see Recruiting and MVC dominates fan interest.
Was taking a look at the 'Top 10 Posters' and valpotx is the leader but LaPorteAveApostle is a close 2nd place at 4455(!). Where has LaPorteAveApostle been the last year or so since I've joined the forum? It's been a big year for Valpo Basketball. Needs to jump on the message board again. I'm sure he'd have some interesting insight.
Also where has ValpoDad89 gone?
He transferred to Vandy.
I've seen ValpoDad89 listed as having logged in many times. I think he's backed off commenting and just monitors the goings on.
MidMajorMadness is going to be doing a Mailbag piece soon. If you have any Valpo/MVC/HL questions tweet at them.
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/854413127923924992
Follow the link to the Tennesean article
[tweet]854736551812747265[/tweet]
[tweet]854011600394760193[/tweet]
ALSO.......... On the MVC side of things, it appears like the drift of the expansion thread of their fan forum has moved to questions regarding how this all might impact football (MVFC) and the role that Murray State might fill. Indiana State is not getting any love, BTW..
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4679&start=36
St. Louis U. would be VERY WISE to listen to the MVC overtures.
Several reasons:
1- Their finances are a mess, including a recent flunk of medical school accreditation. Big layoffs are coming.
2- Travel for all SLU sports benefit from lowered costs of the 3 hour bus trips or less to several MVC schools and easy trips to Iowa and Chicago
3- St. Louis would become the destination/anchor city/major league city for multiple sports as shown by Arch Madness
4- Travel to Rhode Island, VCU etc. has to be hugely expensive and time consuming.
5- SLU could become a dominant new Creighton and raise the profile of all schools and raise themselves nationally as a "winner" in the process.
6 -Adding Murray and Valpo becomes even more logical as travel pairs with So. Illinois, Loyola, and Evansvile, Terre Haute.
7- They are in MISSOURI for God's sake, not in the "Atlantic"
8 -soccer and baseball are historic strengths in the area
Again, their finances suck right now and it could throw them a lifeline.
Quote from: crusadermoe on April 19, 2017, 02:00:43 PM
St. Louis U. would be VERY WISE to listen to the MVC overtures.
Several reasons:
1- Their finances are a mess, including a recent flunk of medical school accreditation. Big layoffs are coming.
2- Travel for all SLU sports benefit from lowered costs of the 3 hour bus trips or less to several MVC schools and easy trips to Iowa and Chicago
3- St. Louis would become the destination/anchor city/major league city for multiple sports as shown by Arch Madness
4- Travel to Rhode Island, VCU etc. has to be hugely expensive and time consuming.
5- SLU could become a dominant new Creighton and raise the profile of all schools and raise themselves nationally as a "winner" in the process.
6 -Adding Murray and Valpo becomes even more logical as travel pairs with So. Illinois, Loyola, and Evansvile, Terre Haute.
7- They are in MISSOURI for God's sake, not in the "Atlantic"
8 -soccer and baseball are historic strengths in the area
Again, their finances suck right now and it could throw them a lifeline.
Yes it would be wise but they are dead set on trying to be in a Multi-bid league. I don't think they would even give much if any consideration to an MVC invite. They turned down the MVC when Creighton left a few years ago.
The SLU Pres/AD/Fans/Alum think they are above the MVC. The MVC being a 1-bid league is a complete non-starter for that school. I actually admire that schools commitment to wanting to be in the best league possible. SLU PAYS a BOATLOAD in travel costs ($$$).
Maybe in the future there will be a new Midwest MidMajor that would combine the best of the Midwests Mids. As of now it completely out of the question from everything that has been reported and talked about.
A Valpo Student who runs the student radio program on WVUR is saying he has a source who says the MVC might be adding Valpo and Murray State.
Pretty much what Rothstein reported on April 7.
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773476825194500
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
Quote from: VU2014 on April 19, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
A Valpo Student who runs the student radio program on WVUR is saying he has a source who says the MVC might be adding Valpo and Murray State.
Pretty much what Rothstein reported on April 7.
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773476825194500
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
So we've completely circled back now on the prospective additions.
Here's what I think. If we don't hear anything in the next 10 or so days, I don't think anyone will be moving anywhere for the 2017-2018 season, and the MVC will just sit pat at nine teams at least for a year, IMO.
While it is true that when Butler moved to the Atlantic 10, they "left" at the end of May, this was due to a response by the HL enjoining them from earning conference championships for their last year in the league after giving the League a year's notice, IIRC. (Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.) A late move like this would be due to special circumstances, but not because of a late announcement by the MVC, IMO.
If Valpo is in fact moving to the MVC, there is no way that we will announce with a year's notice either given the past Butler precedent that was levied by the HL when they left (if my recollection is correct), IMO, unless we are allowed to compete for championships.
If Valpo and/or Murray State are teams #10 and #11 respectively, I still can't see how Murray can leave the OVC this year. Their football schedule is already set for this fall. Perhaps the MVC is looking to get to 10, 11 or 12 teams incrementally over the next year or two. That would make more sense than having Murray and Valpo move now, unless the OVC will allow Murray to stay as a football only member. Otherwise, if not, Valpo (or whomever is a leading candidate for #10) potentially could move this year and MSU could then move in a year or two as soon as their football issue is settled. Or, both could move at once next year. I guess we will know soon enough.
QuoteHL enjoining them from earning conference championships for their last year in the league after giving the League a year's notice, IIRC. (Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.) A late move like this would be due to special circumstances, but not because of a late announcement by the MVC, IMO.
That was Butler's spin on it. Butler was told they wouldn't be allowed to *host* any conference championships, i.e. their basketball teams weren't eligible to play on their homecourt in the HL tourney. That was enough to get them to bolt a year earlier than expected in a huff, and lead their media sycophants in Indy and Ft. Wayne to go with the exaggerated version of events.
Doubt any parties are concerned with the fall football schedule, especially since MVFC is technically a separate entity. Murray could join basketball for next year, then join MVFC for football the following fall. Similar setups have happened a lot in recent years with all the conference shuffling (I believe a couple of the new members of the Big Ten and ACC went this route). Lame-duck football seasons are pretty routine since schedules are set so far in advance. Way easier for a conference to have every team find two new hoops opponents the next winter than have eight teams scrambling for a game four months out from kickoff -- there just aren't enough teams who'll have an opening on their schedule at this point.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 19, 2017, 03:31:18 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 19, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
A Valpo Student who runs the student radio program on WVUR is saying he has a source who says the MVC might be adding Valpo and Murray State.
Pretty much what Rothstein reported on April 7.
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773476825194500
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
So we've completely circled back now on the prospective additions.
Here's what I think. If we don't hear anything in the next 10 or so days, I don't think anyone will be moving anywhere for the 2017-2018 season, and the MVC will just sit pat at nine teams at least for a year, IMO.
While it is true that when Butler moved to the Atlantic 10, they "left" at the end of May, this was due to a response by the HL enjoining them from earning conference championships for their last year in the league after giving the League a year's notice, IIRC. (Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.) A late move like this would be due to special circumstances, but not because of a late announcement by the MVC, IMO.
If Valpo is in fact moving to the MVC, there is no way that we will announce with a year's notice either given the past Butler precedent that was levied by the HL when they left (if my recollection is correct), IMO, unless we are allowed to compete for championships.
If Valpo and/or Murray State are teams #10 and #11 respectively, I still can't see how Murray can leave the OVC this year. Their football schedule is already set for this fall. Perhaps the MVC is looking to get to 10, 11 or 12 teams incrementally over the next year or two. That would make more sense than having Murray and Valpo move now, unless the OVC will allow Murray to stay as a football only member. Otherwise, if not, Valpo (or whomever is a leading candidate for #10) potentially could move this year and MSU could then move in a year or two as soon as their football issue is settled. Or, both could move at once next year. I guess we will know soon enough.
Not sure if you missed an earlier conversation or not. The Missouri Valley Conference doesn't play football. If Murray State joined they would be playing football in a different conference, presumably in the OVC. Later, as you suggest, when football scheduling isn't an issue, they might join the Missouri Valley Football Conference.
http://www.valley-football.org/
http://www.mvc-sports.com/
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/854793823318417408
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/854793995138080770
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/854794651672489984
Quote from: crusadermoe on April 19, 2017, 02:00:43 PM
St. Louis U. would be VERY WISE to listen to the MVC overtures.
Several reasons:
1- Their finances are a mess, including a recent flunk of medical school accreditation. Big layoffs are coming.
2- Travel for all SLU sports benefit from lowered costs of the 3 hour bus trips or less to several MVC schools and easy trips to Iowa and Chicago
3- St. Louis would become the destination/anchor city/major league city for multiple sports as shown by Arch Madness
4- Travel to Rhode Island, VCU etc. has to be hugely expensive and time consuming.
5- SLU could become a dominant new Creighton and raise the profile of all schools and raise themselves nationally as a "winner" in the process.
6 -Adding Murray and Valpo becomes even more logical as travel pairs with So. Illinois, Loyola, and Evansvile, Terre Haute.
7- They are in MISSOURI for God's sake, not in the "Atlantic"
8 -soccer and baseball are historic strengths in the area
Again, their finances suck right now and it could throw them a lifeline.
SLU president says "Show Me."
Quote from: vu72 on April 19, 2017, 04:03:06 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 19, 2017, 03:31:18 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 19, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
A Valpo Student who runs the student radio program on WVUR is saying he has a source who says the MVC might be adding Valpo and Murray State.
Pretty much what Rothstein reported on April 7.
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773476825194500
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
So we've completely circled back now on the prospective additions.
Here's what I think. If we don't hear anything in the next 10 or so days, I don't think anyone will be moving anywhere for the 2017-2018 season, and the MVC will just sit pat at nine teams at least for a year, IMO.
While it is true that when Butler moved to the Atlantic 10, they "left" at the end of May, this was due to a response by the HL enjoining them from earning conference championships for their last year in the league after giving the League a year's notice, IIRC. (Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.) A late move like this would be due to special circumstances, but not because of a late announcement by the MVC, IMO.
If Valpo is in fact moving to the MVC, there is no way that we will announce with a year's notice either given the past Butler precedent that was levied by the HL when they left (if my recollection is correct), IMO, unless we are allowed to compete for championships.
If Valpo and/or Murray State are teams #10 and #11 respectively, I still can't see how Murray can leave the OVC this year. Their football schedule is already set for this fall. Perhaps the MVC is looking to get to 10, 11 or 12 teams incrementally over the next year or two. That would make more sense than having Murray and Valpo move now, unless the OVC will allow Murray to stay as a football only member. Otherwise, if not, Valpo (or whomever is a leading candidate for #10) potentially could move this year and MSU could then move in a year or two as soon as their football issue is settled. Or, both could move at once next year. I guess we will know soon enough.
Not sure if you missed an earlier conversation or not. The Missouri Valley Conference doesn't play football. If Murray State joined they would be playing football in a different conference, presumably in the OVC. Later, as you suggest, when football scheduling isn't an issue, they might join the Missouri Valley Football Conference.
http://www.valley-football.org/
http://www.mvc-sports.com/
I understand that they are separate entities. You mentioned the word "presumably." However, I think there is a bit of a larger presumption on this board that the OVC would simply let Murray keep their football in the OVC if they announced that they were moving to the MVC next fall. I don't think that's a given at all.
Does the OVC allow for affiliate conference football membership? We know that the OVC allows for non football playing members (i.e. Belmont) to join their league for other sports, but does the OVC allow for affiliate football membership only? If the answer is no, please tell me where Murray would play their football next fall if they move to the MVC in 2017, and whether their football team could play for a conference championship or qualify for the FCS tournament when they do so.
I suppose Murray could play their scheduled football games as an FCS Independent in 2017, but the point I'm trying to make is that there are signed contracts for OVC conference football games already in place now for Murray, and if they simply leave the OVC now in all sports, they could potentially breach those contracts with other OVC football playing schools, resulting in some monetary damages without a conference to play in for 2017.
Quote from: crusadermoe on April 19, 2017, 02:00:43 PM
St. Louis U. would be VERY WISE to listen to the MVC overtures.
Several reasons:
1- Their finances are a mess, including a recent flunk of medical school accreditation. Big layoffs are coming.
2- Travel for all SLU sports benefit from lowered costs of the 3 hour bus trips or less to several MVC schools and easy trips to Iowa and Chicago
3- St. Louis would become the destination/anchor city/major league city for multiple sports as shown by Arch Madness
4- Travel to Rhode Island, VCU etc. has to be hugely expensive and time consuming.
5- SLU could become a dominant new Creighton and raise the profile of all schools and raise themselves nationally as a "winner" in the process.
6 -Adding Murray and Valpo becomes even more logical as travel pairs with So. Illinois, Loyola, and Evansvile, Terre Haute.
7- They are in MISSOURI for God's sake, not in the "Atlantic"
8 -soccer and baseball are historic strengths in the area
Again, their finances suck right now and it could throw them a lifeline.
Not sure that a school with at 1.02 Billion dollar endowment is thinking that a change in athletic conferences really has much impact on their financial situation let alone "throw them a lifeline". A return to the MVC might be a prudent move by SLU, but it doesn't look like one they will be considering unless athletics take a prominent spot in the budget cutting process.
While they are currently the only US medical school on probation, this is not an uncommon occurrence. Other excellent schools, such as Baylor and George Washington universities, have been on probation in recent years. Perception may not be the best when accompanied by some of the other issues, but I just can't see them lowering expectations on the basketball program.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 19, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
I only hope that any forthcoming offer from the MVC contains specific caveats that Valpo must upgrade the ARC to certain minimum standards within a given time frame, including financial penalties for failure to comply. It's the only way to ever know if the current administration is truly committed to elevating the profile of the men's basketball program, beyond accepting another gift laid in its lap (the Drews being gift #1).
The MVC fan board is in the midst of discussing the same sticking point. They kind of concluded that because of the FB contracts (both on the OVC and the MVFC side) being already signed going out 2 years that the OVC would allow MSU to stay as a football associate for those 2 years and the MVFC will wait those two years for MSU, just like they are waiting for North Dakota to join in 2020. Here is a scrape off their board:
Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea
Postby uniftw » April 18th, 2017, 12:38 pm
MVFC schedules are set through 2019. It's why UND isn't joining the MVFC until 2020 even though they are joining The Summit in 2018Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 19, 2017, 04:28:21 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 19, 2017, 04:03:06 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 19, 2017, 03:31:18 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 19, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
A Valpo Student who runs the student radio program on WVUR is saying he has a source who says the MVC might be adding Valpo and Murray State.
Pretty much what Rothstein reported on April 7.
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773476825194500
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
So we've completely circled back now on the prospective additions.
Here's what I think. If we don't hear anything in the next 10 or so days, I don't think anyone will be moving anywhere for the 2017-2018 season, and the MVC will just sit pat at nine teams at least for a year, IMO.
While it is true that when Butler moved to the Atlantic 10, they "left" at the end of May, this was due to a response by the HL enjoining them from earning conference championships for their last year in the league after giving the League a year's notice, IIRC. (Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.) A late move like this would be due to special circumstances, but not because of a late announcement by the MVC, IMO.
If Valpo is in fact moving to the MVC, there is no way that we will announce with a year's notice either given the past Butler precedent that was levied by the HL when they left (if my recollection is correct), IMO, unless we are allowed to compete for championships.
If Valpo and/or Murray State are teams #10 and #11 respectively, I still can't see how Murray can leave the OVC this year. Their football schedule is already set for this fall. Perhaps the MVC is looking to get to 10, 11 or 12 teams incrementally over the next year or two. That would make more sense than having Murray and Valpo move now, unless the OVC will allow Murray to stay as a football only member. Otherwise, if not, Valpo (or whomever is a leading candidate for #10) potentially could move this year and MSU could then move in a year or two as soon as their football issue is settled. Or, both could move at once next year. I guess we will know soon enough.
Not sure if you missed an earlier conversation or not. The Missouri Valley Conference doesn't play football. If Murray State joined they would be playing football in a different conference, presumably in the OVC. Later, as you suggest, when football scheduling isn't an issue, they might join the Missouri Valley Football Conference.
http://www.valley-football.org/
http://www.mvc-sports.com/
I understand that they are separate entities. You mentioned the word "presumably." However, I think there is a bit of a larger presumption on this board that the OVC would simply let Murray keep their football in the OVC if they announced that they were moving to the MVC next fall. I don't think that's a given at all.
Does the OVC allow for affiliate conference football membership? We know that the OVC allows for non football playing members (i.e. Belmont) to join their league for other sports, but does the OVC allow for affiliate football membership only? If the answer is no, please tell me where Murray would play their football next fall if they move to the MVC in 2017, and whether their football team could play for a conference championship or qualify for the FCS tournament when they do so.
I suppose Murray could play their scheduled football games as an FCS Independent in 2017, but the point I'm trying to make is that there are signed contracts for OVC conference football games already in place now for Murray, and if they simply leave the OVC now in all sports, they could potentially breach those contracts with other OVC football playing schools, resulting in some monetary damages without a conference to play in for 2017.
The reason that I rarely comment on Facilities discussions, is because it is so overdone, especially when we can't fill the current setup. Switch out the benches for chairbacks in the lower bowl, and be done with it. No addition to capacity until our fans prove that they can fill the current amount. It has been since I was in school, when that was the case....
WH, I scraped this post today on the MVC board by your brother. Thought you'd like to know. ;)
Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea
Postby Redhawk » April 19th, 2017, 3:49 pm
If the rumors on Valpo and Murray State are true I hope they come with some provisions:
Valpo: Upgrade and enlarge the High School gym they play in.
Murray St: Commit to MVFC football
Entire Valley: Reinstate the OOC schedule mandate
Quote from: wh on April 19, 2017, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 19, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
I only hope that any forthcoming offer from the MVC contains specific caveats that Valpo must upgrade the ARC to certain minimum standards within a given time frame, including financial penalties for failure to comply. It's the only way to ever know if the current administration is truly committed to elevating the profile of the men's basketball program, beyond accepting another gift laid in its lap (the Drews being gift #1).
I hope that if we join the MVC, we put stipulations on other MVC members to improve their basketball teams.
Quote from: a3uge on April 19, 2017, 06:00:20 PM
I hope that if we join the MVC, we put stipulations on other MVC members to improve their basketball teams.
Enlarging the gym does squat. The days of selling out because locals have nothing else to do are GONE!!!
It's more important to have a great atmosphere.
Quoteespecially when we can't fill the current setup
That's the wrong metric. There are reasons why we can't fill the current setup that a more modern facility with better amenities would help alleviate. I personally know a number of fans who'd probably be season ticket holders, except sitting on the bleachers on the mezzanine side is an uncomfortable proposition to spend money on. So they come to 3-4 games per year instead. Also, it's likely that we'll draw better in a conference with more familiar names and bigger and better traveling fanbases. (And a conference that likely won't schedule games against our top conference rival while students are on break).
QuoteEnlarging the gym does squat.
Actually, enlarging the arena gives you the opportunity to make more money and sets you up for future growth. No one's saying expand to 10,000 seats or anything like that. But a renovation and smart expansion to a capacity of 6,500 is reasonable and smart.
You knock out the wall behind the chairbacks, add a small mezzanine with a layer of suites on top (which help attract more corporate support of the program). New concessions, restrooms and entry lobby behind it. Practice court and other player creature comforts underneath. Replace bleachers on other side with chairbacks, re-angling the seats so you don't lose much capacity (the track is wasted space). Chairbacks behind east basket, since you don't need the concession stand and souvenir stand there anymore (relocate it to new lobby). Do something about the floor so it isn't as hard as concrete.
"But we won't fill it every night?" Maybe not at first, but over time the goal is to grow into it, like a new home. And you have an extra 1,000 seats plus suites to increase revenue when you do. And a much better fan experience (so more fans buy tickets, helping, ta-da, *to fill the seats you have*). And no worries about your facility being used against you in recruiting.
Look, I know this will take commitment, and lots of money. But if Valpo wants to remain competitive at the level they imagine themselves, this is not a "nice to have," it's a near-term imperative. We can think that will continue to win into infinity with the outdated building we have, but the track record of the top non-P5 programs around the country says otherwise. The fact that fans of *another mid-major conference that we've more than held our own against recently* want something in writing before potentially inviting us should wake you up to the fact that keeping the ARC as-is is an untenable proposition.
No question that when we fill the ARC, or come very close to doing it, the ARC provides a great atmosphere for mid-major college basketball.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 19, 2017, 08:20:11 PM
Quoteespecially when we can't fill the current setup
That's the wrong metric. There are reasons why we can't fill the current setup that a more modern facility with better amenities would help alleviate. I personally know a number of fans who'd probably be season ticket holders, except sitting on the bleachers on the mezzanine side is an uncomfortable proposition to spend money on. So they come to 3-4 games per year instead. Also, it's likely that we'll draw better in a conference with more familiar names and bigger and better traveling fanbases. (And a conference that likely won't schedule games against our top conference rival while students are on break).
QuoteEnlarging the gym does squat.
Actually, enlarging the arena gives you the opportunity to make more money and sets you up for future growth. No one's saying expand to 10,000 seats or anything like that. But a renovation and smart expansion to a capacity of 6,500 is reasonable and smart.
You knock out the wall behind the chairbacks, add a small mezzanine with a layer of suites on top (which help attract more corporate support of the program). New concessions, restrooms and entry lobby behind it. Practice court and other player creature comforts underneath. Replace bleachers on other side with chairbacks, re-angling the seats so you don't lose much capacity (the track is wasted space). Chairbacks behind east basket, since you don't need the concession stand and souvenir stand there anymore (relocate it to new lobby). Do something about the floor so it isn't as hard as concrete.
"But we won't fill it every night?" Maybe not at first, but over time the goal is to grow into it, like a new home. And you have an extra 1,000 seats plus suites to increase revenue when you do. And a much better fan experience (so more fans buy tickets, helping, ta-da, *to fill the seats you have*). And no worries about your facility being used against you in recruiting.
Look, I know this will take commitment, and lots of money. But if Valpo wants to remain competitive at the level they imagine themselves, this is not a "nice to have," it's a near-term imperative. We can think that will continue to win into infinity with the outdated building we have, but the track record of the top non-P5 programs around the country says otherwise. The fact that fans of *another mid-major conference that we've more than held our own against recently* want something in writing before potentially inviting us should wake you up to the fact that keeping the ARC as-is is an untenable proposition.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 19, 2017, 08:20:11 PM
Quoteespecially when we can't fill the current setup
That's the wrong metric. There are reasons why we can't fill the current setup that a more modern facility with better amenities would help alleviate. I personally know a number of fans who'd probably be season ticket holders, except sitting on the bleachers on the mezzanine side is an uncomfortable proposition to spend money on. So they come to 3-4 games per year instead. Also, it's likely that we'll draw better in a conference with more familiar names and bigger and better traveling fanbases. (And a conference that likely won't schedule games against our top conference rival while students are on break).
QuoteEnlarging the gym does squat.
Actually, enlarging the arena gives you the opportunity to make more money and sets you up for future growth. No one's saying expand to 10,000 seats or anything like that. But a renovation and smart expansion to a capacity of 6,500 is reasonable and smart.
You knock out the wall behind the chairbacks, add a small mezzanine with a layer of suites on top (which help attract more corporate support of the program). New concessions, restrooms and entry lobby behind it. Practice court and other player creature comforts underneath. Replace bleachers on other side with chairbacks, re-angling the seats so you don't lose much capacity (the track is wasted space). Chairbacks behind east basket, since you don't need the concession stand and souvenir stand there anymore (relocate it to new lobby). Do something about the floor so it isn't as hard as concrete.
"But we won't fill it every night?" Maybe not at first, but over time the goal is to grow into it, like a new home. And you have an extra 1,000 seats plus suites to increase revenue when you do. And a much better fan experience (so more fans buy tickets, helping, ta-da, *to fill the seats you have*). And no worries about your facility being used against you in recruiting.
Look, I know this will take commitment, and lots of money. But if Valpo wants to remain competitive at the level they imagine themselves, this is not a "nice to have," it's a near-term imperative. We can think that will continue to win into infinity with the outdated building we have, but the track record of the top non-P5 programs around the country says otherwise. The fact that fans of *another mid-major conference that we've more than held our own against recently* want something in writing before potentially inviting us should wake you up to the fact that keeping the ARC as-is is an untenable proposition.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 19, 2017, 08:20:11 PM
Quoteespecially when we can't fill the current setup
That's the wrong metric. There are reasons why we can't fill the current setup that a more modern facility with better amenities would help alleviate. I personally know a number of fans who'd probably be season ticket holders, except sitting on the bleachers on the mezzanine side is an uncomfortable proposition to spend money on. So they come to 3-4 games per year instead. Also, it's likely that we'll draw better in a conference with more familiar names and bigger and better traveling fanbases. (And a conference that likely won't schedule games against our top conference rival while students are on break).
QuoteEnlarging the gym does squat.
Actually, enlarging the arena gives you the opportunity to make more money and sets you up for future growth. No one's saying expand to 10,000 seats or anything like that. But a renovation and smart expansion to a capacity of 6,500 is reasonable and smart.
You knock out the wall behind the chairbacks, add a small mezzanine with a layer of suites on top (which help attract more corporate support of the program). New concessions, restrooms and entry lobby behind it. Practice court and other player creature comforts underneath. Replace bleachers on other side with chairbacks, re-angling the seats so you don't lose much capacity (the track is wasted space). Chairbacks behind east basket, since you don't need the concession stand and souvenir stand there anymore (relocate it to new lobby). Do something about the floor so it isn't as hard as concrete.
"But we won't fill it every night?" Maybe not at first, but over time the goal is to grow into it, like a new home. And you have an extra 1,000 seats plus suites to increase revenue when you do. And a much better fan experience (so more fans buy tickets, helping, ta-da, *to fill the seats you have*). And no worries about your facility being used against you in recruiting.
Look, I know this will take commitment, and lots of money. But if Valpo wants to remain competitive at the level they imagine themselves, this is not a "nice to have," it's a near-term imperative. We can think that will continue to win into infinity with the outdated building we have, but the track record of the top non-P5 programs around the country says otherwise. The fact that fans of *another mid-major conference that we've more than held our own against recently* want something in writing before potentially inviting us should wake you up to the fact that keeping the ARC as-is is an untenable proposition.
Don't disagree. Just know that the "concrete" floor was replaced a couple of years ago.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 18, 2017, 11:38:26 AMQuote from: valpo04 on April 18, 2017, 11:23:59 AMQuote from: agibson on April 17, 2017, 09:13:22 PMQuote from: VULB#62 on April 17, 2017, 03:58:35 PMOn my iMac this thread goes 48 pages deep. The list of threads under the topic Valpo Basketball is only 24 pages deep. I can't recall any single thread having this much action. There are 1176 replies and it has been viewed 89,519 times. It looks like no other thread (digging back only the first 10 pages of Valpo Basketball) comes close to this one in either replies or views. Just thought that interesting.
Albeit half of these posts were in 2013, and half this year. Still, even as two threads, it's pretty long.
The "More Stats (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?action=stats)" link on the front page confirms it.
Awesome. I didn't know that "More Stats" page existed. Not surprising to see Recruiting and MVC dominates fan interest. Was taking a look at the 'Top 10 Posters' and valpotx is the leader but LaPorteAveApostle is a close 2nd place at 4455(!). Where has LaPorteAveApostle been the last year or so since I've joined the forum? It's been a big year for Valpo Basketball. Needs to jump on the message board again. I'm sure he'd have some interesting insight. Also where has ValpoDad89 gone?
Who is LaPorteAveApostle?
Uh oh, is Saders back in the form of 'smitty?' Saders old buddy, how ya been? :)
Nope just a fan. My son went to Valpo. Just check in from time to time. Just sort of a casual fan.
Really enjoy the message board talk. The Valpo Forums are so much more rational and educated then the typical fan boards. Keep up the great work guys!
Maybe Smits has a really good experience at Valpo and Dad donates some NBA money to the Crusaders Basketball program.
Quote from: smitty on April 19, 2017, 09:51:18 PM
Nope just a fan. My son went to Valpo. Just check in from time to time. Just sort of a casual fan.
Really enjoy the message board talk. The Valpo Forums are so much more rational and educated then the typical fan boards. Keep up the great work guys!
Tom Smith?? Todd Smith?? ;) :crazy:
There is an entire thread on the mvc forum promoting the Dakotas or at least two of the Dakotas for membership into the mvc.
Summit League will pass MVC if you take Murray & Valpo over NDSU & SDSU. you can save this post. :Bam:
RPi's without (WSU,Creighton)
Past five years(average RPI)
NDSU: 86.8(33 best RPI, 125 worst)
SDSU: 95.4(28, 155)
UNI: 88(14, 162)
ISU: 92.4(33, 136)
Evansville: 144.6(93, 216)
ISUB: 148(72, 233)
SIU: 193.2(138, 276)
MSU: 196.4(87, 248)
Loyolla: 211.6(123, 292)
Drake: 245.6(144, 326)
Bradley: 254.8(191, 306)
VALPO RPI average last 5 years is 83.8
16-17 79
15-16 31
14-15 56
13-14 195
12-13 58
Not only is the best out of the HL, but it's also the best out of the current mvc members. Oh yes, it's also better than the Dakotas and all the other potential candidates. :-X
I saw that part of the discussion. It was driven by one Bison fan. Great job showing how Valpo compares!
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 20, 2017, 08:56:56 AM
There is an entire thread on the mvc forum promoting the Dakotas or at least two of the Dakotas for membership into the mvc.
Summit League will pass MVC if you take Murray & Valpo over NDSU & SDSU. you can save this post. :Bam:
RPi's without (WSU,Creighton)
Past five years(average RPI)
NDSU: 86.8(33 best RPI, 125 worst)
SDSU: 95.4(28, 155)
UNI: 88(14, 162)
ISU: 92.4(33, 136)
Evansville: 144.6(93, 216)
ISUB: 148(72, 233)
SIU: 193.2(138, 276)
MSU: 196.4(87, 248)
Loyolla: 211.6(123, 292)
Drake: 245.6(144, 326)
Bradley: 254.8(191, 306)
VALPO RPI average last 5 years is 83.8
16-17 79
15-16 31
14-15 56
13-14 195
12-13 58
Not only is the best out of the HL, but it's also the best out of the current mvc members. Oh yes, it's also better than the Dakotas and all the other potential candidates. :-X
Here's another telling metric for Mid Majors -
Top 100 RPI finishes in the past 5 years:
5 Top 100 Finishes - None
4 Top 100 Finishes - Valpo, Belmont
3 Top 100 Finishes -
N. Iowa, N. Dakota State, S. Dakota State
2 Top 100 Finishes -
IL State, IN State, Green Bay
1 Top 100 Finishes -
Evansville, MO State, Murray State, Cleveland State, Detroit, NKU
0 Top 100 Finishes -
Loyola, Bradley, Drake, UMKC, Omaha, Oakland, Milwaukee, UIC, YSU, Wright State
And for the MVC brain surgeons who think UMKC is a good idea:
RPI
2016-17 184
2015-16 286
2014-15 296
2013-14 249
2012-13 284
One of the worst programs in D-1 over the past 5 seasons, "...but they have nice facilities and bring
a new market into play!"
Maybe they're talking about
a new supermarket chain?? ::)
Quote from: wh on April 20, 2017, 10:44:09 AMQuote from: oklahomamick on April 20, 2017, 08:56:56 AMThere is an entire thread on the mvc forum promoting the Dakotas or at least two of the Dakotas for membership into the mvc. Summit League will pass MVC if you take Murray & Valpo over NDSU & SDSU. you can save this post. :Bam: RPi's without (WSU,Creighton) Past five years(average RPI) NDSU: 86.8(33 best RPI, 125 worst) SDSU: 95.4(28, 155) UNI: 88(14, 162) ISU: 92.4(33, 136) Evansville: 144.6(93, 216) ISUB: 148(72, 233) SIU: 193.2(138, 276) MSU: 196.4(87, 248) Loyolla: 211.6(123, 292) Drake: 245.6(144, 326) Bradley: 254.8(191, 306) VALPO RPI average last 5 years is 83.8 16-17 79 15-16 31 14-15 56 13-14 195 12-13 58 Not only is the best out of the HL, but it's also the best out of the current mvc members. Oh yes, it's also better than the Dakotas and all the other potential candidates. :-X
Here's another telling metric for Mid Majors - Top 100 RPI finishes in the past 5 years: 5 Top 100 Finishes - None 4 Top 100 Finishes - Valpo, Belmont 3 Top 100 Finishes - N. Iowa, N. Dakota State, S. Dakota State 2 Top 100 Finishes - IL State, IN State, 1 Top 100 Finishes - Evansville, MO State, Murray State 0 Top 100 Finishes - Loyola, Bradley, Drake
Where are the HL teams?
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 20, 2017, 10:52:15 AM
Quote from: wh on April 20, 2017, 10:44:09 AMQuote from: oklahomamick on April 20, 2017, 08:56:56 AMThere is an entire thread on the mvc forum promoting the Dakotas or at least two of the Dakotas for membership into the mvc. Summit League will pass MVC if you take Murray & Valpo over NDSU & SDSU. you can save this post. :Bam: RPi's without (WSU,Creighton) Past five years(average RPI) NDSU: 86.8(33 best RPI, 125 worst) SDSU: 95.4(28, 155) UNI: 88(14, 162) ISU: 92.4(33, 136) Evansville: 144.6(93, 216) ISUB: 148(72, 233) SIU: 193.2(138, 276) MSU: 196.4(87, 248) Loyolla: 211.6(123, 292) Drake: 245.6(144, 326) Bradley: 254.8(191, 306) VALPO RPI average last 5 years is 83.8 16-17 79 15-16 31 14-15 56 13-14 195 12-13 58 Not only is the best out of the HL, but it's also the best out of the current mvc members. Oh yes, it's also better than the Dakotas and all the other potential candidates. :-X
Here's another telling metric for Mid Majors - Top 100 RPI finishes in the past 5 years: 5 Top 100 Finishes - None 4 Top 100 Finishes - Valpo, Belmont 3 Top 100 Finishes - N. Iowa, N. Dakota State, S. Dakota State 2 Top 100 Finishes - IL State, IN State, 1 Top 100 Finishes - Evansville, MO State, Murray State 0 Top 100 Finishes - Loyola, Bradley, Drake
Where are the HL teams?
I went back and added them - just for you. ;)
Quote from: valpotx on April 16, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
I have said it before, but I just don't get why some MVC fans are enamored with UMKC. They have never proven to draw any type of fan passion/attendance, even when the Mid-Con tourney was in their city! It is a commuter school, and many people don't even know that they play sports...
Since then they got some decent publicity from a television show called Switched at Birth that was set in Kansas City. It was about a former Kansas City Royals baseball player whose daughter was switched at birth with the daughter of an Hispanic lady from the inner city of KC. The daughter that the Hispanic lady ends up with is deaf. The show has the actor Marlee Matlin, a deaf actress who has influenced the show greatly to somehow show what it is like to be deaf in the midwest. The other more popular actor is Lea Thompson from the Back to the Future series of films. She played Michael J Fox's mother in the Back to the Future movies. Lea Thompson plays the wife of the KC Royals' former player. UMKC was, for a period, used quite extensively as a location for this TV show. Even once having a football program which everybody in the midwest knows they don't actually have. But, of course, if Hollywood says you have a football team, even for a short period, you have a football team. :-)
HL had 2 this year with NKU at RPI 85. Only VU in 15-16 at 31. Us at 56 and GB at 60 in 14-15. GB at 69 and CSU at 91 in 13-14. 2012-13 ??? Can't find it. Did we have any top 100 HL company that year?
Oakland finished at 102 this year and 105 in 15-16. Close--- But no cigar!
Found this interesting from the MVC forum. Could this be the first leak.... Document seems to be legit, I just wonder why they are giving to the news media?
QuoteSee item # 4 on the attached Agenda for tomorrow's special meeting of the Murray State Board of Regents
http://www.murraystate.edu/Libraries/Board_of_Regents/MediaAnnouncement42117.pdf
Topic: Intercollegiate Athletics*
*(Requires Board of Regents Action)
It looks like Murray State has a 'Special Board of Regents Meeting' tomorrow and on their agenda is "Intercollegiate Athletics" which means we could be getting a little news of Murray States interest or hearing the realities of Murray State possibly leaving for the MVC. Maybe we hear a leak from the Murray State side of things in the near future.
https://twitter.com/cdl1018/status/855096535352307712
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/855108095655247872
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/855108261808410624
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/855108350329192454
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/855113609189502976
No Valpo leaks.....of course.
QuoteDocument seems to be legit, I just wonder why they are giving to the news media?
Murray is a state institution and is thus subject to open meetings/records laws in Kentucky. Many states require special sessions like this one to be posted publicly at least 24 hours in advance, with agenda items included. Distribution to the news media is an important component of satisfying public disclosure rules.
Valpo has no such requirements, being a private institution.
Valpo's Board has its next regularly scheduled meetings end of next week if anyone is wondering.
It would be sad to see Murray State being the only addition. I will keep my fingers crossed.
Quote from: wh on April 19, 2017, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 19, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
I only hope that any forthcoming offer from the MVC contains specific caveats that Valpo must upgrade the ARC to certain minimum standards within a given time frame, including financial penalties for failure to comply. It's the only way to ever know if the current administration is truly committed to elevating the profile of the men's basketball program, beyond accepting another gift laid in its lap (the Drews being gift #1).
In reality, this is much more likely the result of a negotiation.
MVC's opening position: Valpo needs to commit to building a new basketball stadium to open within five years and do other specific improvements for facilities in other sports. If Valpo fails to meet these requirements and their associated timeframes, they get reduced NCAA tournament shares and other revenue shared within the MVC.
Valpo's opening position: We have great programs, are a strong academic institutions, and have a wonderful fan base. We will continue to make every effort to have a basketball program and other sports programs that will be highly competitive in the MVC.
Both sides will have to concede to reach a deal. Interestingly, I think that you could make a somewhat reasonable argument that it would be more dangerous for the MVC to walk away than Valpo. Valpo is one of the MVC's strongest basketball options along with Murray State and Belmont (UMKC? really?...travel to the Dakotas?). Valpo should agree to modest improvements, but from a negotiation standpoint Valpo will consider (1) their current situation is not horrible (though we all want it to improve and there are problems in the Horizon League), and (2) given that there is always a high likelihood of further conference realignment, this game may well be played again in 3-5 years.
Thus, my opinion is that it is unlikely that we will see an offer that is just developed by the MVC and then voted on by Valpo. There will be negotiation between both sides that leads to a tentative agreement of terms or one party walking away. Valpo would vote on those terms.
The MVC needs Valpo more than Valpo needs the MVC. I don't think they're at liberty to be making demands for Valpo to up and spend $20 million. So what, Valpo says no, we don't have $20 million laying around and they go with UMKC instead? How does the MVC win in that situation?
I have a feeling that the MVC sans Wichita State isn't what's holding Valpo back from spending tens of millions on athletic facilities.
Quote from: a3uge on April 20, 2017, 02:11:11 PM
The MVC needs Valpo more than Valpo needs the MVC. I don't think they're at liberty to be making demands for Valpo to up and spend $20 million. So what, Valpo says no, we don't have $20 million laying around and they go with UMKC instead? How does the MVC win in that situation?
I have a feeling that the MVC sans Wichita State isn't what's holding Valpo back from spending tens of millions on athletic facilities.
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but that we actually believe "the MVC needs Valpo more than Valpo needs the MVC" is probably how we have earned the mantle of the HL's most arrogant/obnoxious fan base.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey guys,
UNI fan if you can't tell by the name. Same UNIFTW as MVCFans. I regiestered a while back but couldn't get my activiation e-mail until today. I don't remember what I was going to address back then, but I'll add a few thoughts from my perspective (and semi-MVC perspective)
1. There is no replacement for WSU. However, Valpo and MUSU is about as it gets - especially since Belmont seems to have no interest. I'd welcome Valpo to the league. There could be an arguement to be made that Valpo and MUSU continuing where they have been, combined with ISUR, UNI and potentially MSU if they ever get a coach that can coach X's and O's have a real shot at multibids. Loyola, as much as almost all MVC fans hated that addition, has been racking up the talent on the roster lately. Much like Missouri State, who might actually have the most talented roster in the conference next year, Porter and Paul Lusk (MOSUs coach) are horrendous in game coaches. So is Muller at Illinois State. All 3 can recruit like crazy but can't coach a lick. Or retain players. Seriously, go look at the players those two have lost the last few years.
2. The key will be getting the bottom of the league to not be as bad as they have been. The key difference in RPIs between 05-11 and now is that the MVC used to have a scheduling mandate for OOC SOS. That means RPI's at the bottom of the league were kept artificially high, which kept the top of the league higher. There were a handful of years the MVC had only 1 or 2 teams worse than 200. Now the bottom of the league has multiple teams 250-300 or worse. If we can get those RPI's up, everyone moves up.
With that said, there are some concerns many of us have about Valpo and Murray State. Maybe they turn out to be nothing, but I think they are worthy of worry.
3. What will Valpo be like post Drew and Alec Peters. I don't need to tell anyone here what Valpo was before Drew family. Yes, that goes back to the late 80s. There is reason to wonder what life A.D. (after Drew) is going to look like, especially with a guy like Peters now gone. It should also be noted that almost 100% of Valpo's national name recognition is off the Drew shot in the 98 tournament. That shot turns 20 this season. That is the only season Valpo has ever won a NCAA tournament game. 82 seasons of basketball, only 1 of them involved an NCAA tournament win (yes, I know it was 2 that year). Not only that - only 2 NCAA appearances since 2004. That's also in a league/leagues that aren't at the level of the MVC. Maybe there isn't a drop. For the MVC's sake I hope there isn't if you get an invite. I think combining UNI and Valpo as names could be a great thing.
4. Facilities. No need for a new facility. However, a face-lift wouldn't hurt? Maybe Google only has bad imagines, but it looks like you have the old school yellow colored lights. Those are dim and when combined with a school wearing brown and yellow it looks...well...dank. You're arena is set up nearly identically to Drake's Knapp Center - just smaller 5k vs 7.1k. The big difference is the lights and the seat backs. It also looks to be a smaller version of the arena MUSU plays in, which holds 8,600. All 3 are strikingly similar. I don't think the Valley would be out of line to ask for renovations. Even Loyola did some pretty significant face-lifting that coincided with their move. I would attach files but they are too large so google it. Or it's on my twitter - which was already posted in this thread.
5. The MVC needs Valpo? False. It would be nice, but the league has been around for 110 years. It's the second oldest conference in the country behind only the B10. If done correctly the MVC can survive, and thrive, at 9. Valpo and MUSU are added benefits.
6. If Murray State is added we have Murray State, Missouri State, Illinois State and Indiana State. For quick learning reference:
MuSU - Murray State
MoSU - Missouri State
ISUr/IlSU - Illinois State
ISUb/InSU - Indiana State
Also, it's UNI not NIU. It's not funny to intentionally flip it - or even accidentally. Also, UNI's basketball coach is JacobsOn not JacobsEn.
Look forward to potentially teaming up with all of you as conference mates. I'll be mostly friendly....mostly.
With Alec Peters leaving and how Valparaiso played in the Horizon tournament are you worried that the program may start trending down especially with a new coach?
Not really. Lottich is a better in-game coach and his recruiting has been solid so far.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 20, 2017, 02:43:34 PM2. The key will be getting the bottom of the league to not be as bad as they have been. The key difference in RPIs between 05-11 and now is that the MVC used to have a scheduling mandate for OOC SOS. That means RPI's at the bottom of the league were kept artificially high, which kept the top of the league higher. There were a handful of years the MVC had only 1 or 2 teams worse than 200. Now the bottom of the league has multiple teams 250-300 or worse. If we can get those RPI's up, everyone moves up.
What happened to the scheduling mandate? Some of us in the Horizon (and probably broadly around mid-majordom) had admired it for years.
It was gotten rid of. The official stance is probably something along the lines of "it's impossible to follow with how games are drying up". The reality is the bottom of the league - Drake, Bradley, Evansville (to name a few) got tired of having to schedule that way and led a push to get rid of it. Since then those 3, along with Missouri State, have played historically bad OOCs, which kill RPI before the season ever starts. Evansville and Missouri State have each loaded up on 4 SWAC teams in 1 year - including playing at SWAC programs.
It needs to come back and there needs to be punishment for not following it - like not getting full/any NCAA share
No worries, whatsoever, on our ability to continue our winning ways. Recruits see the championship banners hanging in our HS gym, which helps to cement strong players coming to Valpo, despite the gym. It is not just because of the Drews, but because of the school itself, and our commitment to winning in Men's Basketball. Coach Lottich has proven that he can recruit the same level of talent, but is also a better in-game coach than Bryce was. We are something like 10-2 over the last 5 years against MVC teams, and 3-0 versus some very solid Murray State teams. Our regular season championship teams would have been just as competitive in the MVC, as we were in the HL those years.
Also, we have more than 2 wins in an NCAA tournament. We have only been competing at the current D-1 level since 1978 (I believe), and had several wins in the former 'Small College' (now D-2) format of the NCAA tourney:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso_Crusaders_men's_basketball
Quote from: ISUBird on April 20, 2017, 02:48:07 PM
With Alec Peters leaving and how Valparaiso played in the Horizon tournament are you worried that the program may start trending down especially with a new coach?
Nope.
I could see how outsiders may be concerned but Lottich proved he had coaching chops this past season. This will be his first recruiting class. We have a few potentially really talented transfers coming in next season and the 2 true freshman coming in look to be raw talents but still lots of potential.
Lottich has impressed in his first year. As for losing Alec, yes it hurts but cupboard definitely not is bare.
https://twitter.com/AKAJeffBidwell/status/855171521295331328
https://www.facebook.com/ImAnOhioGuy/
https://twitter.com/AKAJeffBidwell/status/855172049056268288
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 20, 2017, 02:30:30 PMI don't disagree with the sentiment, but that we actually believe "the MVC needs Valpo more than Valpo needs the MVC" is probably how we have earned the mantle of the HL's most arrogant/obnoxious fan base.
Yup :)
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 20, 2017, 03:49:59 PM
It was gotten rid of. The official stance is probably something along the lines of "it's impossible to follow with how games are drying up". The reality is the bottom of the league - Drake, Bradley, Evansville (to name a few) got tired of having to schedule that way and led a push to get rid of it. Since then those 3, along with Missouri State, have played historically bad OOCs, which kill RPI before the season ever starts. Evansville and Missouri State have each loaded up on 4 SWAC teams in 1 year - including playing at SWAC programs.
It needs to come back and there needs to be punishment for not following it - like not getting full/any NCAA share
You seem to have an inaccurate view of RPI, or at least of overall conference RPI. The bottom of the league playing a soft schedule is actually a good thing. Remember, RPI is 25% your own winning percentage and 50% your opponents winning percentage. Only 25% is dependent on your opponents opponents winning percentage.
Say Missouri State finishes their ooc schedule 6-6 with an RPI of 220, with a bunch of SWAC and MEAC teams on their schedule.
Drake finishes their ooc schedule 2-10 and has an RPI of 210 because they played Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky.
Which one is better for the conference? Missouri State is the team that's helping the overall RPI of the conference because they have the better win percentage (50% of everyone's RPI calculation)... NOT Drake.
Yes, the top of the league needs to schedule in a way to ensure a top 100 RPI (because arbitrary round numbers matter to selection committee), but the bottom of the league's individual RPIs are rather irrelevant. The perception of a 200 RPI loss is basically the same as a 250 RPI loss. Therefore, a good win loss record for the bottom dwellers is better for the league.
If you take a look at the MAC, they've got this down to a science. Every year their teams have a bad out-of-conference strength of schedule, but their conference RPI is usually strong. The top few teams in the league end up with really good RPI despite never beating anybody decent. The selection committee hasn't caught on to this yet and they've gotten better seeds than a lot of quality mid-majors with better out of conference wins. True, no team is built for an at-large bid in that league, but their top teams typically have great RPIs (didn't really work out this year because everyone beat up on each other).
Quote from: ISUBird on April 20, 2017, 02:48:07 PM
With Alec Peters leaving and how Valparaiso played in the Horizon tournament are you worried that the program may start trending down especially with a new coach?
With Wichita State leaving, and Illinois State turning over it's roster, are you worried that the whole conference may start trending down, especially with new teams?
Quote from: a3uge on April 20, 2017, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 20, 2017, 02:48:07 PM
With Alec Peters leaving and how Valparaiso played in the Horizon tournament are you worried that the program may start trending down especially with a new coach?
With Wichita State leaving, and Illinois State turning over it's roster, are you worried that the whole conference may start trending down, especially with new teams?
Interesting quote regarding Alec Peters. Not the first time someone indicated a belief that Valpo's success was all about Alec and without him we are toast. For the record, the year BEFORE Alec set foot on the campus, (2012-2013) Valpo finished the year ranked #65 in the Sagarins. That is better than every team in The Valley that year sans Wichita State and Creighton.
Here is our newest podcast on Murray's state and the MVC, if anyone is interested.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yiAFlPDgBmM
QuoteHL had 2 this year with NKU at RPI 85. Only VU in 15-16 at 31. Us at 56 and GB at 60 in 14-15. GB at 69 and CSU at 91 in 13-14. 2012-13 Can't find it. Did we have any top 100 HL company that year?
Detroit was #71 in 2012-13.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 20, 2017, 02:43:34 PM5. The MVC needs Valpo? False. It would be nice, but the league has been around for 110 years. It's the second oldest conference in the country behind only the B10. If done correctly the MVC can survive, and thrive, at 9. Valpo and MUSU are added benefits.
Bingo! Get it in your heads people. The MVC can find a part equivalent to Valpo and move on. Will Valpo's high reputation live on in the HL? Who knows.
Quote from: bbtds on April 21, 2017, 06:53:07 AM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 20, 2017, 02:43:34 PM5. The MVC needs Valpo? False. It would be nice, but the league has been around for 110 years. It's the second oldest conference in the country behind only the B10. If done correctly the MVC can survive, and thrive, at 9. Valpo and MUSU are added benefits.
Bingo! Get it in your heads people. The MVC can find a part equivalent to Valpo and move on. Will Valpo's high reputation live on in the HL? Who knows.
I don't think anyone ever said or even hinted that it's "Valpo or bust" for the MVC. Even with WSU the MVC was a 1-bid conference this year. That isn't going to change whether they add Valpo or Chicago State. If that's what you mean by "they can find a part equivalent to Valpo and move on," I don't disagree. Universities in the Mid West with mid major bb programs are a dime a dozen. Just pick one, move on and live happily ever after. No big deal.
Quote from: ARCInsider on April 20, 2017, 03:04:38 PM
Not really. Lottich is a better in-game coach and his recruiting has been solid so far.
Quote from: valpotx on April 20, 2017, 04:10:33 PM
No worries, whatsoever, on our ability to continue our winning ways. Recruits see the championship banners hanging in our HS gym, which helps to cement strong players coming to Valpo, despite the gym. It is not just because of the Drews, but because of the school itself, and our commitment to winning in Men's Basketball. Coach Lottich has proven that he can recruit the same level of talent, but is also a better in-game coach than Bryce was. We are something like 10-2 over the last 5 years against MVC teams, and 3-0 versus some very solid Murray State teams. Our regular season championship teams would have been just as competitive in the MVC, as we were in the HL those years.
Also, we have more than 2 wins in an NCAA tournament. We have only been competing at the current D-1 level since 1978 (I believe), and had several wins in the former 'Small College' (now D-2) format of the NCAA tourney:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso_Crusaders_men's_basketball
Quote from: VU2014 on April 20, 2017, 04:12:32 PM
Nope.
I could see how outsiders may be concerned but Lottich proved he had coaching chops this past season. This will be his first recruiting class. We have a few potentially really talented transfers coming in next season and the 2 true freshman coming in look to be raw talents but still lots of potential.
Lottich has impressed in his first year. As for losing Alec, yes it hurts but cupboard definitely not is bare.
I do agree that during the regular season Valpo was great, but when Peters got hurt the level of play went down. That part isn't concerning? It's not every day that someone comes and averages over 20 points a game.
Quote from: a3uge on April 20, 2017, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 20, 2017, 02:48:07 PM
With Alec Peters leaving and how Valparaiso played in the Horizon tournament are you worried that the program may start trending down especially with a new coach?
With Wichita State leaving, and Illinois State turning over it's roster, are you worried that the whole conference may start trending down, especially with new teams?
Yes. Loyola is not at the same level of Creighton and whoever is added will not be at the same level of Wichita State. I'm always at least slightly concerned for my team because even the best recruits are still young and learning and can vary so much from game to game and season to season. So I'm guessing you are concerned.
Its not concerning at all. When any team loses their best player, especially one of his caliber, they will most likely struggle. The conference tournament loss and the loss in the NIT our next (arguably) best player was so ill he didn't practice and was just a shell of himself when he tried to play.
Quote from: a3uge on April 20, 2017, 05:49:11 PM
You seem to have an inaccurate view of RPI, or at least of overall conference RPI. The bottom of the league playing a soft schedule is actually a good thing. Remember, RPI is 25% your own winning percentage and 50% your opponents winning percentage. Only 25% is dependent on your opponents opponents winning percentage.
Say Missouri State finishes their ooc schedule 6-6 with an RPI of 220, with a bunch of SWAC and MEAC teams on their schedule.
Drake finishes their ooc schedule 2-10 and has an RPI of 210 because they played Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky.
Which one is better for the conference? Missouri State is the team that's helping the overall RPI of the conference because they have the better win percentage (50% of everyone's RPI calculation)... NOT Drake.
Yes, the top of the league needs to schedule in a way to ensure a top 100 RPI (because arbitrary round numbers matter to selection committee), but the bottom of the league's individual RPIs are rather irrelevant. The perception of a 200 RPI loss is basically the same as a 250 RPI loss. Therefore, a good win loss record for the bottom dwellers is better for the league.
If you take a look at the MAC, they've got this down to a science. Every year their teams have a bad out-of-conference strength of schedule, but their conference RPI is usually strong. The top few teams in the league end up with really good RPI despite never beating anybody decent. The selection committee hasn't caught on to this yet and they've gotten better seeds than a lot of quality mid-majors with better out of conference wins. True, no team is built for an at-large bid in that league, but their top teams typically have great RPIs (didn't really work out this year because everyone beat up on each other).
Who you play, and in turn who your opponents play - especially conference you play twice in a year - and their RPI is important.
Look at 2006-2007 as a perfect example. The MVC finished 6th in the RPI and played an OOC SOS rank of 6th. Records/RPI of the MVC that year?
7 SIU 26-6 SOS 29
20 CU 22-10 SOS 19
36 MSU 21-10 SOS 43
39 BU 20-12 SOS 21
86 UNI 17-13 SOS 81
100 WSU 16-14 SOS 72
114 DU 16-15 SOS 74
133 UE 14-17 SOS 90
138 ISUR 14-16 SOS 103
139 ISUB 12-18 SOS 54
Compare that to this year where the overall conference record isn't all that much worse - though it is - but the SOS ranks were
WSU 140
ISUR 124
SIU 103
UNI 99
LUC 198
EU 110
MSU 212
BU 135
ISUB 139
DU 146
Conference 11th
Sure, you still have to win to help RPI but SOS plays a MASSIVE factor in it. It's not a coincidence when that SOS mandate went away the bottom of the league fell off the table for RPI. Remember, opponent win % matters. Thus the bottom of the league playing SWAC/MEAC teams that are going to go 1-10 or 3-9 in the OOC kills their RPI, which then kills everyone's RPI. Go look at conference RPI finish and then their SOS rank. It's almost 100% match up
Conf RPI-SOS rank for this last year
1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4
5-5
6-6
7-9
8-8
9-7
10-10
11-12
12-11 - MVC
13-16
14-13
15-14
16-15
17-19
18-18
19-17 - HORIZON
20-20
Get the picture yet? Conference RPI is determined by team RPI. Team RPI is VERY heavily determined by SOS.
Since you used Drake at 2-10 but playing Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky I'll go a head on use this years schedule and remove a the 2 SWAC and 1 WAC games and add those in to see what we end up with. We end up with a total RPI of 265 and an SOS of 77. Still bad but significantly better than 314 for an RPI with an SOS of 146. That kind of domino affect through the entire league following that pattern (not to the extreme of Duke/UK/KU obviously) makes a significant difference.
Understanding the lay out of the formula is one thing. Knowing how it impacts the conference through a domino effect is another. MVC fans know this FAAR better than almost any other conference. We've watched it happen over the last 7 seasons. The records at the bottom of the league haven't really gotten any worse. But the SOS's have gotten significantly worse.
Quote from: valpotx on April 20, 2017, 04:10:33 PM
No worries, whatsoever, on our ability to continue our winning ways. Recruits see the championship banners hanging in our HS gym, which helps to cement strong players coming to Valpo, despite the gym. It is not just because of the Drews, but because of the school itself, and our commitment to winning in Men's Basketball. Coach Lottich has proven that he can recruit the same level of talent, but is also a better in-game coach than Bryce was. We are something like 10-2 over the last 5 years against MVC teams, and 3-0 versus some very solid Murray State teams. Our regular season championship teams would have been just as competitive in the MVC, as we were in the HL those years.
Also, we have more than 2 wins in an NCAA tournament. We have only been competing at the current D-1 level since 1978 (I believe), and had several wins in the former 'Small College' (now D-2) format of the NCAA tourney:
I HAD TO REMOVE LINK AS I'M NOT ALLOWED TO POST OUTSIDE LINKS
That's good. I'm not overly concerned, but if you're an outsider looking at the last 30 years of Valpo basketball, more specifically the last 10 it's relatively easy to see where our concern may come in. There are some pretty striking similarities to Evansville. The Aces were "the team" of the MCC (Horizon) in the 80s - specifically late 80s early 90s. Jim Crews came in and took a team from 13-16 the year before he got there to 21-8 in year 3 and 25-6 with an NCAA berth and win in year 4. He Also made the NCAA tournament in 92 and 93 before getting an MVC invite. From years 3-MVC move UE averaged 21 wins per year - which was greatly impacted by one 14-14 year. UE's first year in the MVC saw a 3 win drop, then another 5 win drop in year 2. Year 4 saw an NCAA first round loss, but then it was 5 win drop, 4 win drop, and by year 8 Crews was fired after going 7-21. That was 2002. Since 2002 UE has finished below .500 9 times. Only finished over .500 in conference play 3 times. Finished OVER .500 overall just 4 times. 23 years in the MVC and one NCAA bid. They finish in the PIG (play in games at the conference tournament, bottom 4 teams) more than they finish outside of the PIG.
Yes, Valpo has a better structure built around their program than UE does. So I don't really believe that drop to happen. But to those outside of the Crusader program there is historical precident that moving from top dog in the HL to the MVC doesn't go well. There is also historical precedent showing that Valpo struggles to win without a Drew in charge. 12 seasons of D1 ball before Homer showed up and the best record was 13-12 and that was the first season. Only 4 seasons of double digit wins and just the 1 winning record.
Yes, the ability to recruit and show the NITs and past NCAAs will help. As I said though, with some there is a concern that it's just 2 NCAA appearances since 2004 and only 1 year with NCAA tournament wins which was 20 years ago. A post later on also says it is a bit concerning that 4 years with Alec Peters got just 1 NCAA tournament bid. Sure, there was probably AL quality team that didn't get one because of the conference, but sometimes ALs are earned on name recognition as much/more than resume. 30-7 Valpo being left out a year after making the NCAAs half shows the name recognition is starting to fade nationally.
With all of that said - I still want you in the MVC. I think you should have been the add over Loyola a few years ago. The move would be greatly beneficial for both sides. I'd love for you to come in and be a top 3 team every year. No question. I think the natural rivalry you have with UE and Loyola would be great. I think the geographical rivals would be superb with ISUr and Bradley. I think quality of play and program rivalry with UNI would be fantastic. Valpo/UNI would be "the name" match up in the MVC. I think from a university stand point Valpo/Drake would be a potentially great rivalry as well. I want it to happen. I hope all of the potential concerns us outsiders see are false. I want them to be. I want a good team. We fans for all teams want good teams. It's why we get sooo pissed on MVC fans about UMKC, UIC, SEMO, Omaha, South Dakota, Austin Peay, etc... being considered/thrown around. We don't have time for that crap. Occasionally that mentality spills over into clouding our view of Valpo (and Murray). Don't take most of MVCFans too seriously. The site (And the old site we used to have) was over run by over the top arrogant pricks from WSU and sCUm. All we know is complete vitriol and retaliation attacks. Hopefully with those two fan bases gone we can have rivalry games, heated games, heated discussions BUT able to keep it rational and mostly cordial.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: a3uge on April 20, 2017, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 20, 2017, 02:48:07 PM
With Wichita State leaving, and Illinois State turning over it's roster, are you worried that the whole conference may start trending down, especially with new teams?
Absolutely. It's why it is vital to get this addition(s) correct. Illinois State's roster turn over is very concerning to me. Look at the players they've lost the last few years to transfer. They've lost enough talent to start a MVC champion team, and they were still MVC champions this year. Muller might be the best recruiter in the conference. He just also happens to be 1 of the 3 worst X and O coaches in the conference. His player talent trumps his coaching ability more than it doesn't though. He also has a history (as does ISUr's football team) of looking past significant legal/academic issues and not suspending/booting players that help them win.
So yes, the turnover is very concerning out of ISUr. As well as SIU and MoSU.
There has been a similar situation in the HL as discussed on our board (almost annually, I think). There have been numerous requests by posters that the HL wake up and mandate scheduling standards similar to, I believe, the A10. I think if Valpo were to receive an MVC invitation and a condition was placed on the quality of our scheduling, we would welcome it, because Valpo understands what is needed to get to an at-large status. And that relates to an MVC concern -- seeking a replacement for WSU that embodies a commitment to MBB as their primary driver.
A good case in point was Matt's compilation of the 2016-17 schedule (this also relates to why we have great confidence in him, cuz he could have pulled together a creampuff schedule that would have given us another 30 win season and made HIS resume better). We had a blend of top P5s and strong mid-major foes that produced a pretty solid SOS resulting in a pretty solid RPI as a team. However, many HL teams failed to follow suit.
Purely personal opinion here: if one were to examine why VU might be willing to switch leagues, one reason might very well be a frustration with the current league's inertia in this respect. :twocents:
Ok just to layout a few things for our Non-Horizon League friends that may have concerns about Coach Lottich and the Alec Peters situation.
Last Season Run-down:
-Lost Bryce Drew and his Assistant Coach Lottich was hired (retained as an Assistant Coach Gore)
-Following the hiring of Coach Lottich it was met positively from all the players and from the media/fans. But one of the players got caught in a power play from a Prep School coach who tried to 'strong-arm' Lottich to hire one of his coaches to the staff and Lottich said no, so that Prep School (Don Bosco Prep which the Student-Athlete attended before coming to Valpo) forced the Kid to transfer. Keep in mind this "prep school" coach also is an active agent. Just totally shady. This player David Skara was a likely starter and was going to be a key player for us this season and he publicly stated that he was excited that Coach Lottich got the job and was excited for the next season. Everyone knew privately the student athlete wanted to stay but got up in that whole.
(I highly encourage you give this article a read: http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/inside-vu-sports/the-servant-of-two-masters/article_9b8322d0-07ef-11e6-a241-f74cbb5d6508.html )
-Valpo's starting point guard Keith Carter from last year was Widely thought to get an extra year of eligibility because his freshman year he played at SLU but was the same year Rick Majerus got sick and passed away. His freshman year he played something like 40minutes total and was injured. Keith asked for a medical red-shirt year but SLU said NO because they knew he was planning on transferring. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE expected the NCAA was going to grant him that extra year of eligibility because the circumstances warranted it and the NCAA has precedents at Larger schools of granting an extra year, BUT the the NCAA denied his extra year and shocked everyone. If Keith played at Michigan State or any P6 schools it would be likely that he was granted that extra year.
-Coach Lottich brought in 3 very talented RS transfers last offseason. SF Joe Burton (4* Okie State), PG Bakari Evelyn (3* Nebraska), John Middleton (JUCO transfer). John Middleton got suspended for breaking "team rules" after only being on campus for a month I believe and he ended up transferring. We never really even knew the kid. So that is 3 scholarships down. We are expecting big things from Joe and Bakari next season. Both are projected starters.
-On top of all of that our Starting Forward Jubril Adekoya (one of our best players) turned himself in for an receiving unauthorized aid (rumor is there may have been are part his paper that was plagiarized). He self reported himself and so Valparaiso showing good will to the NCAA reported it to them and so Jubril was "out indefinitely" till the NCAA decided the punishment. There is NCAA precedents for kids sitting out 1/4-1/2 the season for that type of infraction. That took basically till the end of the season for the NCAA to rule he couldn't play the rest of the season (which is ridiculous). The F'ing team that just won the national championship had FAKE CLASSES for their "student"-athletes but still haven't punished UNC. Another case of the NCAA picking favorites (Not punishing Big $$ schools) but throwing the hammer down on the mid-majors. He only played 9 games and didn't compete in Conference play.
Keep in mind this is a kid who has already earned his degree in 3 yrs and has been twice member of Horizon League Academic Honor Roll. Went on Athletes in Action trip to Poland during summer of 2015 AND is on the NCAA Student-Athlete Leadership Forum. No priors to this and had a GREAT track record of academics and student leadership.
WH mention the perfect quote for this situation: "The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky they're going to give Cleveland State another year of probation." -Jerry Tarkanian
-Alec Peters gets hurts on Feb 4 against Green Bay when Valpo was 19-4 (9-1) at that point. He didn't know he suffered a stress fracture at the time and continue to play through discomfort. They started to rest him at the end of the season to try and see if rest could heel the injury. He eventually got ruled out the rest of the season and missed the ending of the season. Now with that already really short bench we lose our star.
-At the end of the season we had 0 PFs left on the roster & our only Bigs were 2 freshman that completely hit the freshman wall at the end of the season (just wore down).
-After losing AP, no Jubril, 2 (originally 3) RS players not playing, lost our to be starting Forward in Skara, NCAA screwed us on the Keith Carter, Valpo still managed to to tie for 1st place of the Conference Regular Season in the Horizon League.
-Now after all that we find out of 2nd best player Shane Hammink has been battling a very serious stomach virus and couldn't practice and hardly play at the end of the season. He looked horrendous in the Conference in the NIT. He gave it a try but he just wasn't healthy.
To say the least this past season the team has went through LOTS of adversity and challenges.
I could see how outsiders may think Valpo may not be the same without Alec Peters but Valpo will still be a very competitive MidMajor Team for the foreseeable future. One of thing to keep in mind is that Alec Peters was not ALEC PETERS (JR-SR) his whole entire college career. He has always been a very good player but he really developed his game over the last 4 years. He got better every single year and became better. He was better this year then he was his Junior year. We've been able to compete without having a sure thing dominate NBA caliber player like Alec at the peak of his game. (Although Ryan Broekhoff should be on an NBA roster next year) Valpo's program is not just one Player or coach. I'm very optimistic about the future. Next year may be a "reloading" year but we'd still most likely finish in the top half of the MVC with next years roster if not finish better. Lottich and the coaching staff is really recruiting some pretty talented recruits right now.
Hope this helps explain what the program has went through the last year or so. We should be pretty good team going forward.
https://twitter.com/dreamarlowe85/status/855438286055030784
https://twitter.com/dreamarlowe85/status/855438622828498944
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/855439589779099650
https://twitter.com/cdl1018/status/855451831136395264
Hope theres room for one more.
It seems to me it was suggested to the Murray State President and Athletic Director that they clear the way with the Board of Directors and economically so that an invitation to the MVC would and could be accepted. The MVC doesn't want to extend an offer without guarantee of acceptance, which would be embarrassing. Valpo next?
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 21, 2017, 11:08:09 AM
Hope theres room for one more.
Murray State mentioned they haven't received a invite yet. But you can almost guarantee that talks have happened privately.
This Board Meeting is almost the first public address by the school. They are basically laying out the case the for Murray State to get an invite. I'm sure every MVC President will watch this. This was almost talking to them and also saying that they will leave the OVC if given an offer to the MVC.
I'm sure the MVC will be taking a visit to Murray State some time in the next few weeks. MVC will probably take another visit to Valpo also.
Damn I wish our Valpo Board Meetings were open to the public! I believe our board meets next week.
Here's hoping there is room for both Valpo and Murray State to get an invite! The MVC would be stronger with both as opposed to just one getting an invite. We still don't know if they will expand to 10-11 or even possibly 12.
Wow - VU2014 provided quite the history. I would add that Valpo in the last two seasons has beaten BYU (twice), Alabama, Rhode Island (twice), Saint Mary's, Florida State and Oregon State. They played Oregon tough for long stretches twice on Oregon's home floor. You could argue that Peters was the key (and he was/is a great player), but if you look at each of those games you will see a wide variety of players stepping up (Peters was double-teamed throughout this season). With the exception of Tevonn Walker, the players that made those games happen will all be gone next year. However, I would agree with previous posters about Burton and Evelyn and would add that the program and Lottich are committed to maintaining that level of competitiveness. I would argue that Valpo's recruiting effectiveness has overall been good, but will get better with Valpo in the MVC. Getting Peters was not a one time thing.
Peters would have been a strong candidate for MVC player of the year if Valpo had been in the MVC. Valpo's previous top player (Ryan Broekhoff) would have been first team all-MVC if Valpo had been in the MVC when he played. And the pre-Peters teams with Broekhoff and company were over .500 against Butler.
I see posts from people of other MVC schools raising concerns about the post-Drew era. I would argue that there are indeed three 'eras' of Valpo D1 basketball.
-Pre-Drew era (pre-1987): No commitment to college athletics.
-Drew era: Started with no commitment to college athletics, but the success that happened after awhile with Homer (and then Bryce and Scott) showed the university how valuable having a strong mid-major college basketball program was to the university's reputation and the student environment.
-Post-Drew era (started last summer): Continued commitment by elevating a high quality young coach (Lottich).
Bottom line regarding Valpo if you look at it as another MVC program: Valpo will likely be a consistent RPI 40-90 team, though this next season I could see that being worse due to the need to integrate new players into the system (but that could be improved by having a stronger overall conference schedule). Most seasons, wins against Valpo will look like quality wins and there would only be rare seasons in which playing them would have a negative RPI (or whether better metric you prefer) effect. Valpo and the MVC is a really good fit for all parties.
Quote from: valpopal on April 21, 2017, 11:33:33 AM
It seems to me it was suggested to the Murray State President and Athletic Director that they clear the way with the Board of Directors and economically so that an invitation to the MVC would and could be accepted. The MVC doesn't want to extend an offer without guarantee of acceptance, which would be embarrassing. Valpo next?
I think this is spot on, but the "slush fund" is really not the big item. It does clear the way for easy payment of the exit fee, but that wasn't the difficult part. The important part was the commitment to increase athletic funding to meet loss of revenue from exit, cost of entrance, increased travel and competition needs. Huge slam dunk from a Racer fan's perspective. You guys are up.
My $.02 on this hasn't really changed yet.
Unless Murray's football situation has been resolved, and by resolved I mean that:
Murray State will be allowed to complete in the OVC as a football only member for a set period of duration, and by virtue of same they will not be sued by the OVC as an entity or by any other member institution for breach of contract or in any other capacity because of their move to the MVC; or
Murray State will compete as an FCS Independent while maintaining their current fall FCS football schedule, and by virtue of same they will not be sued by the OVC as an entity or by any other member institution for breach of contract or in any other capacity because of their move to the MVC,
I just can't see them entering the MVC for the 2017-2018 season. Anything less is unresolved. The next coming weeks should be very interesting!
A few comments about Murray State (whom I hope is a conference member with Valpo in the very near future).
-Nice campus with lots of good people. My impression is that they know who they are (secondary state university) and place a high emphasis on teaching quality for a state school.
-Facilities outside of basketball and any other sports they play in their basketball stadium (and football, if they were to transfer to the MVFC) will be an issue for Murray State. When I was there in the fall of 2015, I saw a women's soccer game against SLU being played in a field between buildings with no seating (just a hill). Basketball stadium is new, modern and on campus.
-Compared to Valpo or most current or recent MVC schools, Murray, KY is remote. It is a city of about 35,000 people (slightly larger than Valparaiso) with no real population center closer than Paducah, KY (about 45-50 minute drive). To get there, you either fly to Paducah, KY and drive 50 minutes or fly to Nashville and drive two hours. It is not a bad bus ride from SIU, but would be a long ride from any other school.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 20, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
5. The MVC needs Valpo? False. It would be nice, but the league has been around for 110 years. It's the second oldest conference in the country behind only the B10. If done correctly the MVC can survive, and thrive, at 9. Valpo and MUSU are added benefits.
I don't know if this is just bluster, or if you're in need of a serious reality check. Either way, the facts simply don't support the positive perception you're trying to paint about your conference as it is currently positioned:
8.6 MVC's avg. conf. RPI ranking for 10 seasons prior to Creighton leaving.
12 MVC's avg. conf. RPI ranking for the past 4 seasons since Creighton left.
16 MCV's current RPI ranking, minus Wichita State.
If the MVC were a business (something I understand) instead of an athletic conference, we would be using labels like "in serious decline" and "at a tipping point." Rather than contending something unsupported by reality -
"...if done correctly the MVC can survive, and thrive, at 9" - you should be saying
...if our conference makes another mistake like they did 4 years ago, we may never pull out of our current swan dive. As to who needs whom more (Valpo or the MVC), I don't much care what MVC fans think about Valpo one way or the other. Contrary to the MVC, Valpo basketball will continue to prosper either way. It has become a high profile, nationally recognized mid-major program despite having "high school" facilities that people love to mock. It has prospered without the glitz and glitter of "big city lights" that some fans believe is so critical to basketball success. The University has already changed leagues once and dominated in both. These factors in combination give me a pretty high level of confidence that Valparaiso men's basketball will continue to prosper whether it stays in the 18th ranked conference or moves to the 16th.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 21, 2017, 11:49:03 AM
My $.02 on this hasn't really changed yet.
Unless Murray's football situation has been resolved, and by resolved I mean that:
Murray State will be allowed to complete in the OVC as a football only member for a set period of duration, and by virtue of same they will not be sued by the OVC as an entity or by any other member institution for breach of contract or in any other capacity because of their move to the MVC; or
Murray State will compete as an FCS Independent while maintaining their current fall FCS football schedule, and by virtue of same they will not be sued by the OVC as an entity or by any other member institution for breach of contract or in any other capacity because of their move to the MVC,
I just can't see them entering the MVC for the 2017-2018 season. Anything less is unresolved. The next coming weeks should be very interesting!
Here's the deal with MSU football and changing conferences.
1. The MVC doesn't sponsor football. It has nothing to do with this. Though I'm sure discussions about the MVFC making a place for them, or finding them a new home are involved.
2. They couldn't leave OVC football this year no matter what. Schedules are set. Football schedules aren't as able to be modified as basketball schedules. They are set years in advance. The OVC likely makes them ineligible for the conference titles - which doesn't matter for MSU anyway. They can't join the MVFC before 2020. MVFC conference schedules are set through 2019. It's why North Dakota isn't joining the MVFC from the Big Sky until 2020, even though they are joining the Summit from the Big Sky in 2018.
The options for MSU football are this:
A. Continue in the OVC as an affiliate member "full time". This helps the OVC keep it's perfect round robin schedule for the conference, and limits number of OOC games that need to be filled, which is very tough in the FCS.
B. Continue in the OVC until 2020 as an affiliate that is ineligible for the conference automatic bid to the playoffs. This is what happens in almost every situation. It is what North Dakota is doing in the Big Sky - and UND won the Big Sky last year. It's what happened when Georgia State, Coastal Carolina, App State, Georgia Southern, Texas, State, Old Dominion, etc... all moved from their conferences to the FBS but had to play in the old league for a year or two during the transition. It is what Liberty is now doing with their move from the Big South to FBS Independent status.
C. They can join the PFL, though it will probably take a year or two for them to be able to do that due to schedules. This would allow more money to be put into basketball and other sports the MVC wants to be good. They would be in the same league as Drake and Valpo. It makes for a nice hom.
D. Drop football - very unlikely
E. Play indy - which is a death sentence in the FCS. would lead lead to D.
With UND joining the MVFC in 2020 that league is going to be at 11. Adding MSU would allow for a 12 team league with a faux-divisional set up.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 21, 2017, 12:05:50 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 21, 2017, 11:49:03 AM
My $.02 on this hasn't really changed yet.
Unless Murray's football situation has been resolved, and by resolved I mean that:
Murray State will be allowed to complete in the OVC as a football only member for a set period of duration, and by virtue of same they will not be sued by the OVC as an entity or by any other member institution for breach of contract or in any other capacity because of their move to the MVC; or
Murray State will compete as an FCS Independent while maintaining their current fall FCS football schedule, and by virtue of same they will not be sued by the OVC as an entity or by any other member institution for breach of contract or in any other capacity because of their move to the MVC,
I just can't see them entering the MVC for the 2017-2018 season. Anything less is unresolved. The next coming weeks should be very interesting!
Here's the deal with MSU football and changing conferences.
1. The MVC doesn't sponsor football. It has nothing to do with this. Though I'm sure discussions about the MVFC making a place for them, or finding them a new home are involved.
2. They couldn't leave OVC football this year no matter what. Schedules are set. Football schedules aren't as able to be modified as basketball schedules. They are set years in advance. The OVC likely makes them ineligible for the conference titles - which doesn't matter for MSU anyway. They can't join the MVFC before 2020. MVFC conference schedules are set through 2019. It's why North Dakota isn't joining the MVFC from the Big Sky until 2020, even though they are joining the Summit from the Big Sky in 2018.
The options for MSU football are this:
A. Continue in the OVC as an affiliate member "full time". This helps the OVC keep it's perfect round robin schedule for the conference, and limits number of OOC games that need to be filled, which is very tough in the FCS.
B. Continue in the OVC until 2020 as an affiliate that is ineligible for the conference automatic bid to the playoffs. This is what happens in almost every situation. It is what North Dakota is doing in the Big Sky - and UND won the Big Sky last year. It's what happened when Georgia State, Coastal Carolina, App State, Georgia Southern, Texas, State, Old Dominion, etc... all moved from their conferences to the FBS but had to play in the old league for a year or two during the transition. It is what Liberty is now doing with their move from the Big South to FBS Independent status.
C. They can join the PFL, though it will probably take a year or two for them to be able to do that due to schedules. This would allow more money to be put into basketball and other sports the MVC wants to be good. They would be in the same league as Drake and Valpo. It makes for a nice hom.
D. Drop football - very unlikely
E. Play indy - which is a death sentence in the FCS. would lead lead to D.
With UND joining the MVFC in 2020 that league is going to be at 11. Adding MSU would allow for a 12 team league with a faux-divisional set up.
Good stuff. Just a couple of points:
1) I think we agree that MSU football, at least for the Fall of 2017, needs to be resolved before a move to the MVC can be made. How this issue is resolved or negotiated by the OVC and MSU is anyone's guess.
2) With respect to the bolded comments you wrote above, I'm not sure I agree with you. While technically true, that statement is more relevant to Valparaiso than it is to Murray State in this analysis because VU's football is a non-counter; that is, its fall football schedule and fall football conference affiliation remain completely unaffected by a move to the MVC absolutely. We're Drake, part deux. Move along, nothing to see here from a Valpo football point of view if we were to make the move to the MVC this year. This isn't necessarily the case for Murray State. Football in some capacity has to be relevant in this analysis for MSU regardless if it is not sponsored by the MVC. From an MVC point of view, your comment is accurate. From an MSU view? Not sure, IMO.
UNIFTW - Thanks for your thoughtful posting. It is good to have your insights in the conversation.
You raise interesting thoughts about football playing into this with Murray State (at Valpo, most everyone is very basketball centric). They are a very average FBS team, but they are a true FBS program and my understanding is that they have a decent environment given their population base. I can't see them moving up to FCS, but I also cannot see them moving to the PFL. In the PFL, Murray State would squash most of the teams like a bug (Valpo included) and I don't see the PFL teams agreeing to have that strong of a conference member. Furthermore, I would think that Murray State seems themselves more akin to Indiana State or SIU in football and would be hard pressed to have regular conference opponents like Drake, Valpo and many of the other very small FBS teams. FBS independent seems like a non-starter, so that leaves the MVFC or playing football only in the OVC. It does not seem likely that the OVC would agree for Murray State to leave in all sports other than football, but remain a member in good standing for football (maybe I am wrong). That leaves a transition for Murray State to the MVC to include membership at some point in the MVFC. I can see Murray riding out several years of limbo in football to make the overall transition, but I don't see them not having a plan for football as part of an agreement.
Murray State isnt having that meeting/conversation if the offer wasnt on the table. Appears to be a done deal with MSU. Is the MVC adding 1, 2, or more?
MSU administration answered the call. Will the administration of Valpo? Having home and homes with Murray State, UNI, Ill st, etc would be NICE.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 21, 2017, 12:26:38 PM
Murray State isnt having that meeting/conversation if the offer wasnt on the table. Appears to be a done deal with MSU. Is the MVC adding 1, 2, or more?
MSU administration answered the call. Will the administration of Valpo? Having home and homes with Murray State, UNI, Ill st, etc would be NICE.
It could be based on an agreed to deal, but it is also very likely that the parties at Murray State that are negotiating with the MVC need to determine with the board of regents what their negotiation range and limits are. The same process would also happen with Valpo. There is no way this is as simple as "MVC makes an offer with demands and the invitee votes" or "Invitee makes a proposal and the MVC decides". Furthermore, while I would love Valpo to be in the MVC and think that it is a really good fit for all parties, Valpo should not give away the farm to do so.
QuoteI see posts from people of other MVC schools raising concerns about the post-Drew era. I would argue that there are indeed three 'eras' of Valpo D1 basketball.
-Pre-Drew era (pre-1987): No commitment to college athletics.
Absolutely this. Look, if someone wants to make the argument that VU is unproven in the post-Drew era, go for it. We have one year of sample size, and it's pretty good, but there's no way to prove/disprove it at this point. It's not that the program isn't capable of a backslide (literally every mid-major program is!), but looking pre-Drew era for your evidence is an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Pointing out records from the 1980s (30 years ago, BTW!) neglects to mention that Valpo was one of the most poorly funded Division I programs in the country back then. The AD would pull down a curtain over the then-empty mezzanine seats at the ARC to save $10 per game on cleaning costs. There was zero effort to fundraise for athletics or attract community support. The coaching staff had to borrow cars from the few donors the program had for recruiting trips, since VU wouldn't pay for rental cars (or flights). The only ads in the ARC were on the scoreboard, which was donated by a local 7UP bottler. The team would occasionally ride in vans on road trips instead of a charter bus. Everything was done on the cheap, and the program was in a death spiral because of it. Which is why the local newspaper used to write a nearly-annual column urging VU to drop out of Division I. I used to resent those at the time, but now I realize it was largely voicing the frustration of players and coaches that Valpo needed to step up and do it right or not do it at all. After Homer arrived and beat ND in his first season, the university finally started to get the message, and the program is operated 180 degrees difference than it was back then.
My favorite anecdote underscoring how poorly the program was run in the 1980s was when VU hosted Notre Dame for the dedication game in the ARC, and the name-plates on the scoreboard infamously read "HOME" and "NOTRE DAME". Apparently, the "VALPO" name plate didn't arrive (or someone forgot to order it), and VU was too cheap at the time to pay rush charges to have a new ones made up in time (for
the dedication game of your new arena to be played in front of a full house and TV audience!) Then VU athletic staff decided to put up the ND name-plate anyway, making VU look like the no-name team in their own building.
Valpo may have the occasional bad year down the road, but those days are never, ever coming back, and records from that era shouldn't be used to indicate anything other than the complete lack of commitment the former administration had at the time.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 21, 2017, 08:52:41 AM
Quote from: a3uge on April 20, 2017, 05:49:11 PM
You seem to have an inaccurate view of RPI, or at least of overall conference RPI. The bottom of the league playing a soft schedule is actually a good thing. Remember, RPI is 25% your own winning percentage and 50% your opponents winning percentage. Only 25% is dependent on your opponents opponents winning percentage.
Say Missouri State finishes their ooc schedule 6-6 with an RPI of 220, with a bunch of SWAC and MEAC teams on their schedule.
Drake finishes their ooc schedule 2-10 and has an RPI of 210 because they played Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky.
Which one is better for the conference? Missouri State is the team that's helping the overall RPI of the conference because they have the better win percentage (50% of everyone's RPI calculation)... NOT Drake.
Yes, the top of the league needs to schedule in a way to ensure a top 100 RPI (because arbitrary round numbers matter to selection committee), but the bottom of the league's individual RPIs are rather irrelevant. The perception of a 200 RPI loss is basically the same as a 250 RPI loss. Therefore, a good win loss record for the bottom dwellers is better for the league.
If you take a look at the MAC, they've got this down to a science. Every year their teams have a bad out-of-conference strength of schedule, but their conference RPI is usually strong. The top few teams in the league end up with really good RPI despite never beating anybody decent. The selection committee hasn't caught on to this yet and they've gotten better seeds than a lot of quality mid-majors with better out of conference wins. True, no team is built for an at-large bid in that league, but their top teams typically have great RPIs (didn't really work out this year because everyone beat up on each other).
Who you play, and in turn who your opponents play - especially conference you play twice in a year - and their RPI is important.
Look at 2006-2007 as a perfect example. The MVC finished 6th in the RPI and played an OOC SOS rank of 6th. Records/RPI of the MVC that year?
7 SIU 26-6 SOS 29
20 CU 22-10 SOS 19
36 MSU 21-10 SOS 43
39 BU 20-12 SOS 21
86 UNI 17-13 SOS 81
100 WSU 16-14 SOS 72
114 DU 16-15 SOS 74
133 UE 14-17 SOS 90
138 ISUR 14-16 SOS 103
139 ISUB 12-18 SOS 54
Compare that to this year where the overall conference record isn't all that much worse - though it is - but the SOS ranks were
WSU 140
ISUR 124
SIU 103
UNI 99
LUC 198
EU 110
MSU 212
BU 135
ISUB 139
DU 146
Conference 11th
Sure, you still have to win to help RPI but SOS plays a MASSIVE factor in it. It's not a coincidence when that SOS mandate went away the bottom of the league fell off the table for RPI. Remember, opponent win % matters. Thus the bottom of the league playing SWAC/MEAC teams that are going to go 1-10 or 3-9 in the OOC kills their RPI, which then kills everyone's RPI. Go look at conference RPI finish and then their SOS rank. It's almost 100% match up
Conf RPI-SOS rank for this last year
1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4
5-5
6-6
7-9
8-8
9-7
10-10
11-12
12-11 - MVC
13-16
14-13
15-14
16-15
17-19
18-18
19-17 - HORIZON
20-20
Get the picture yet? Conference RPI is determined by team RPI. Team RPI is VERY heavily determined by SOS.
Since you used Drake at 2-10 but playing Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky I'll go a head on use this years schedule and remove a the 2 SWAC and 1 WAC games and add those in to see what we end up with. We end up with a total RPI of 265 and an SOS of 77. Still bad but significantly better than 314 for an RPI with an SOS of 146. That kind of domino affect through the entire league following that pattern (not to the extreme of Duke/UK/KU obviously) makes a significant difference.
Understanding the lay out of the formula is one thing. Knowing how it impacts the conference through a domino effect is another. MVC fans know this FAAR better than almost any other conference. We've watched it happen over the last 7 seasons. The records at the bottom of the league haven't really gotten any worse. But the SOS's have gotten significantly worse.
Of course RPI and SOS are related almost 1 to 1. That's because it includes conference members. Take a look at ooc sos to RPI this year:
http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html
When it comes to mid major conferences (note I'm not including power conferences due to their scheduling abilities) there's virtually no relationship between OOC SOS and RPI. The 11th ranked Colonial had the 17th rated SOS, the 12th ranked MVC had the 12 rated schedule, and the 13th ranked Sun Belt had the 30th ranked OOC SOS. What you CAN see related is actual winning percentage - the Colonial finished with a 0.5077 percentage, the MVC 0.5031, and the Sun Belt 0.4972.
Edit: just calculated r-values for this year and they're .987 for RPI rank vs OOC W/L % rank and .497 for RPI rank vs OOC SOS rank.
Again, this boils down to the actual formula - your opponents winning percentage matters twice as much as your opponents opponents.
So Missouri State's W/L record is twice as important to UNI's RPI than Missouri State's opponents record (UNI's opponent's opponent).
Also, remember, your opponents W/L record impacts RPI more than their raw RPI. Take UNI's schedule - they finished with an RPI of 162 and a SOS of 102. Let's replace their W vs 144 RPI North Dakota with a win vs a better RPI team, NC State (141 RPI). UNI's RPI actually drops TEN points to 172 and their SOS actually gets worse - to 109. This is because North Dakota's W/L record is pretty good.
As for the scheduling mandate removal tanking the conference RPI... I'm sure Creighton leaving had a bit to do with it.
Just a note of interest for those of you not following the MVC board. Jimmy is making quite a strong case for adding UWM as the 12th team in the MVC. Tex is on there duking it out with him. ;D
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4679&start=36
The MVC board also seems to keep bring Belmont up. :deadhorse: Belmont wants to be the King of the OVC hill for now and forever. They barely get 2000 to their games, so the only recourse is to win the Automatic Bid as the OVC champion. They'd be competitive in the MVC but they don't want to settle for that. They want to be solitary auto-bid on an annual basis. And if Murray state leaves for the MVC, that almost assures them of that. Big difference in philosophy.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 21, 2017, 07:13:28 PM
Just a note of interest for those of you not following the MVC board. Jimmy is making quite a strong case for adding UWM as the 12th team in the MVC. Tex is on there duking it out with him. ;D
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4679&start=36
The MVC board also seems to keep bring Belmont up. :deadhorse: Belmont wants to be the King of the OVC hill for now and forever. They barely get 2000 to their games, so the only recourse is to win the Automatic Bid as the OVC champion. They'd be competitive in the MVC but they don't want to settle for that. They want to be solitary auto-bid on an annual basis. And if Murray state leaves for the MVC, that almost assures them of that. Big difference in philosophy.
Haven't read the Jimmy posts yet, but wasn't he a year ago complaining how awful Amanda Braun is and how terrible she's run the program?
Ok now we maybe are starting to get leaks (or its just a rumor). Milwaukee is starting to get consideration now apparently.
I know MKE got some early interest from the MVC last time around but their Athletics Department is a nightmare. Its truly a mess, @PantherU mentions it a lot on twitter. Curious how real the interest is.
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855558194403438592
https://twitter.com/HoopvilleAdam/status/855593176979124224
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855594353821188097
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/855628597075341312
Quote from: a3uge on April 21, 2017, 08:19:29 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 21, 2017, 07:13:28 PM
Just a note of interest for those of you not following the MVC board. Jimmy is making quite a strong case for adding UWM as the 12th team in the MVC. Tex is on there duking it out with him. ;D
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4679&start=36
The MVC board also seems to keep bring Belmont up. :deadhorse: Belmont wants to be the King of the OVC hill for now and forever. They barely get 2000 to their games, so the only recourse is to win the Automatic Bid as the OVC champion. They'd be competitive in the MVC but they don't want to settle for that. They want to be solitary auto-bid on an annual basis. And if Murray state leaves for the MVC, that almost assures them of that. Big difference in philosophy.
Haven't read the Jimmy posts yet, but wasn't he a year ago complaining how awful Amanda Braun is and how terrible she's run the program?
Jimmy can't stand her but it was all about her dislike for Jeter and doing everything to undermine him. Now she has her guy in there and has tied herself to his success. Jimmy feels that she will do whatever it takes to make him successful. That is the angle that I see in his MVCFANS posts. They have the arena, the enrollment, the population and there may be a new practice facility in the works, so they could be a contender. IMO, way better than UMKC or UNO - plus it brings in Milwaukee. He's pushing for Murray, Valpo and UWM for 12. BUT that's on the MVC fan board -- who the heck knows what's going on in the MVC offices????????.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 21, 2017, 09:32:26 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 21, 2017, 08:19:29 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 21, 2017, 07:13:28 PM
Just a note of interest for those of you not following the MVC board. Jimmy is making quite a strong case for adding UWM as the 12th team in the MVC. Tex is on there duking it out with him. ;D
http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4679&start=36
The MVC board also seems to keep bring Belmont up. :deadhorse: Belmont wants to be the King of the OVC hill for now and forever. They barely get 2000 to their games, so the only recourse is to win the Automatic Bid as the OVC champion. They'd be competitive in the MVC but they don't want to settle for that. They want to be solitary auto-bid on an annual basis. And if Murray state leaves for the MVC, that almost assures them of that. Big difference in philosophy.
Haven't read the Jimmy posts yet, but wasn't he a year ago complaining how awful Amanda Braun is and how terrible she's run the program?
Jimmy can't stand her but it was all about her dislike for Jeter and doing everything to undermine him. Now she has her guy in there and has tied herself to his success. Jimmy feels that she will do whatever it takes to make him successful. That is the angle that I see in his MVCFANS posts. They have the arena, the enrollment, the population and there may be a new practice facility in the works, so they could be a contender. IMO, way better than UMKC or UNO - plus it brings in Milwaukee. He's pushing for Murray, Valpo and UWM for 12. BUT that's on the MVC fan board -- who the heck knows what's going on in the MVC offices????????.
He just posted this. I like Valpo being in a Conf with MKE. Good town and we have a large/active alumni base up there.
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855575583253835777
UWM has finished inside the top 100 RPI only once in the past 10 years - that was a 94 RPI to finish in 2011. They've been outside of the top 100 kpom rankings every year since their 2006 tournament appearance. They've had 4 200+ RPI finishes since then, with a 310 finish scattered in there. They have an average RPI of 174.7 over the past 10 years and an average RPI of 217.4 over the past 5 years.
For reference, Valpo has had 7 top 100 RPI finishes in the past 10 years, and only 1 season outside the top 200. They have a 10 year average of 113 RPI and a 5 year average of 84.2.
Then take Murray State - 3 top 100 RPI finishes with 1 200+ RPI finish, and a ten year average of 118.1 and a 5 year average of 133.2.
UWM just hasn't had any sustainable success. Touting a practice facility that could maybe possibly exist in the future, and an arena everyone wanted to tear down a few years ago isn't a good enough selling point. "Hey trust us, it's not really our fault" isn't a good argument.
That program has really had a decade of mismanagement and poor play, from the APR ban, to the Klotsche Center debacle, to the coaching transition. It's really spanned multiple athletic directors, chancellors, and state governors. For they sake of the Horizon, I hope all of Jimmy's promises start to come true, but I'll believe it when I see it.
I don't know where the 'duking it out' comes from, other than me pointing out the fact that they have had troubles over the last few years (academics/postseason ban, AD turmoil, etc). I don't mind Milwaukee being in the MVC, as long as we get in. They do have a good basketball history before the last few years.
If the MVC fans were concerned about our sustained success without a Drew, Milwaukee still hasn't proved they can have sustained success without Bruce Pearl.
Just wondering what others think:
If the MVC were to invite Valpo to join, contingent on a commitment to upgrade the ARC within 5 years, what would be our answer?
Quote from: wh on April 22, 2017, 08:30:40 AM
Just wondering what others think:
If the MVC were to invite Valpo to join, contingent on a commitment to upgrade the ARC within 5 years, what would be our answer?
Define "upgrade". If the definition was to take the capacity up to 7500 or 8500, then no. If it was to upgrade lower bowl seating to chair backs and expend restroom and concessions then I would think the answer could be a yes.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 22, 2017, 07:18:00 AM
If the MVC fans were concerned about our sustained success without a Drew, Milwaukee still hasn't proved they can have sustained success without Bruce Pearl.
Milwaukee probably could have had that sustained success without Bruce Pearl, but the college administrative powers made mistakes in athletics because they wanted big names in charge, to bring in big names in coaching staff. Andy Geiger was a joke, and really brought the program down significantly. Amanda Braun was probably in the right to bring in someone to change the environment around Milwaukee basketball, but how she publicly handled it was bad for the university. They would be a good addition with Valpo, but they need to get their administrative ducks in a row first.
Quote from: valpotx on April 22, 2017, 01:48:38 AM
I don't know where the 'duking it out' comes from, other than me pointing out the fact that they have had troubles over the last few years (academics/postseason ban, AD turmoil, etc). I don't mind Milwaukee being in the MVC, as long as we get in. They do have a good basketball history before the last few years.
I probably should have put 3 smiley faces instead of just one. My bad. And I agree with what you just said and the exact way you stated it.
From PatherU's perspective, I'll bet it's both good and bad. If they get an invite they'll upgrade BB-- good, ;D! If they get an invite it will cement Braun as the AD of the future -- Bad >:(
Quote from: vu72 on April 22, 2017, 09:12:50 AM
Quote from: wh on April 22, 2017, 08:30:40 AM
Just wondering what others think:
If the MVC were to invite Valpo to join, contingent on a commitment to upgrade the ARC within 5 years, what would be our answer?
Define "upgrade". If the definition was to take the capacity up to 7500 or 8500, then no. If it was to upgrade lower bowl seating to chair backs and expend restroom and concessions then I would think the answer could be a yes.
I agree. The contingency has to clearly be spelled out. Inside of 5 years, expansion is off the table and it is a 'no' as 72 says. A 10 year phased plan for expansion (northside) with visible upgrades to existing conditions (retractable chairback seating* in the south lower bowl, additional permanent, retractable bleachers on the east end line - possibly with chairbacks as well, additional restrooms and moved concessions), new sound system all completed within 5 years a definite 'yes.' The initial 5-year phase will do an awful lot to remove the HS gym stigma right off the bat but not destroy the great game time ambiance, and these are largely cosmetic, not structural. It preserves the space for non-game use by more than just basketball until there is enough money to complete the northside addition and the expansion that can go with that. In the meantime, we have a 5 year period to assess the level of attendance and improve our outreach and marketing to justify 6,500 seats (and I am of the opinion that a university of our size should not go beyond 6,500). There is much to be gained by keeping the home environment a close-in, fans-on-top-of-the-floor venue. As we demonstrated even in our current configuration vs. St. Mary's and Florida State, with the crowd in the game it's a tough place to get a visiting win.
* If additional chairbacks are installed I'd recommend also replacing the north side at the same time for a cohesive look.
Here's a website of an American company that produces this kind of seating:
http://larsoncompany.com/productsservices/bleacherseating/vipplatform.html (nicest)
http://larsoncompany.com/productsservices/bleacherseating/comfobackoption.html (still very nice)
Check out these chair back (called VIP and Comfoback) retractables. They have come a long way since the ones we have were developed. It would be nice to have a brown "V" chair pattern on a gold background on both sides as well. But, from the website it looks like we would only be able to have contrasting bases and backs or alternating same color sections (brown, gold, brown, gold). I would also replace the student bleachers with Larson regular bleachers (without chairbacks) for a fully cohesive "bowl" look. http://larsoncompany.com/productsservices/bleacherseating/plasticsculptureseat.html
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 22, 2017, 07:18:00 AMIf the MVC fans were concerned about our sustained success without a Drew, Milwaukee still hasn't proved they can have sustained success without Bruce Pearl.
Cheating Bruce Pearl at that.....
And....correct me if I'm wrong, but is the MVC now going after Murray St and Milwaukee but not Valpo? Or am I just paranoid we are being left out for those guys?
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 22, 2017, 10:13:12 AM
And....correct me if I'm wrong, but is the MVC now going after Murray St and Milwaukee but not Valpo? Or am I just paranoid we are being left out for those guys?
From what I can ascertain, the UWM rumor is mainly spinning off the MVCFAN board posts.
Quote from: vu72 on April 22, 2017, 09:12:50 AM
Quote from: wh on April 22, 2017, 08:30:40 AM
Just wondering what others think:
If the MVC were to invite Valpo to join, contingent on a commitment to upgrade the ARC within 5 years, what would be our answer?
Define "upgrade". If the definition was to take the capacity up to 7500 or 8500, then no. If it was to upgrade lower bowl seating to chair backs and expend restroom and concessions then I would think the answer could be a yes.
I strongly agree with this statement. A major reason we are referred to as a kiddie gym is because of the retractable seating. If we can't do that, then chairbacks in the entire lower bowl is a big step forward.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 22, 2017, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 22, 2017, 09:12:50 AM
Quote from: wh on April 22, 2017, 08:30:40 AM
Just wondering what others think:
If the MVC were to invite Valpo to join, contingent on a commitment to upgrade the ARC within 5 years, what would be our answer?
Define "upgrade". If the definition was to take the capacity up to 7500 or 8500, then no. If it was to upgrade lower bowl seating to chair backs and expend restroom and concessions then I would think the answer could be a yes.
I strongly agree with this statement. A major reason we are referred to as a kiddie gym is because of the retractable seating. If we can't do that, then chairbacks in the entire lower bowl is a big step forward.
When your "lower bowl" consists of two rectangles and a square as it does now, the only thing chairback seating will do is provide back support to watch the game from a hot garbage sight line. That is not enough. And, by the way, I've read reference on more than one occasion on this board about the "lower bowl." Lulz...Que? There is no lower bowl--you have two rectangles and a square. That's it.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 22, 2017, 12:12:59 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 22, 2017, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 22, 2017, 09:12:50 AM
Quote from: wh on April 22, 2017, 08:30:40 AM
Just wondering what others think:
If the MVC were to invite Valpo to join, contingent on a commitment to upgrade the ARC within 5 years, what would be our answer?
Define "upgrade". If the definition was to take the capacity up to 7500 or 8500, then no. If it was to upgrade lower bowl seating to chair backs and expend restroom and concessions then I would think the answer could be a yes.
I strongly agree with this statement. A major reason we are referred to as a kiddie gym is because of the retractable seating. If we can't do that, then chairbacks in the entire lower bowl is a big step forward.
When your "lower bowl" consists of two rectangles and a square as it does now, the only thing chairback seating will do is provide back support to watch the game from a hot garbage sight line. That is not enough. And, by the way, I've read reference on more than one occasion on this board about the "lower bowl." Lulz...Que? There is no lower bowl--you have two rectangles and a square. That's it.
Awfully picky, Joe. Lower Bowl is as good as anything to describe the lower spectator area as a whole. And I disagree with your assessment that all it will do is add back support. Check out the links and ideas I provided below in my previous post on this issue. By replacing all of the seating in the "bowl" "lower spectator seating", "whatever," the ARC takes on a whole different, modern look and feel -- at a minimal investment. If the MVC wants an indication of commitment to facilities, that should be a good first step out of the blocks.
Besides just painting the MVC logo on the court, refitting the seating would be an excellent way to announce and depict a truly NEW era in Valpo Basketball.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 22, 2017, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 22, 2017, 10:13:12 AM
And....correct me if I'm wrong, but is the MVC now going after Murray St and Milwaukee but not Valpo? Or am I just paranoid we are being left out for those guys?
From what I can ascertain, the UWM rumor is mainly spinning off the MVCFAN board posts.
It's actually seeming to come from beat writers of the MVC and Murray State. I've seen references to it from Murray State, Indiana State, SIU and brief potential mention from UNI (who is an Indiana State alum)
I'm not sure I buy it yet, but there appears to be a smolder behind it. I wouldn't be shocked if Valpo and Murray were this year and a 12th was a year behind.
As for the arena upgrades: I don't care about expanding your capacity. If you can fill 5,000 then have 5,000. Though I'd guess filling 5,000 against UWGB and Youngstown State probably means 6.500 against UNI, Illinois State, Loyola, etc... is possible but so be it.
As I said earlier, I think the main concern upfront would be making it look like a D1 arena and not a large HS gym. New seats. Better lighting. I have no idea what the score board looks like. You would be shocked the difference modern lights and new seat backs would make in just making. The place feel brand new. Maybe a fresh coach of paint. I know your school colors are brown and yellow, but every game I watch on TV/photo o see the facility has a yellow and brown tint in the air. Not in the "school color" way but in the dark and old school lighting kind of way.
Drakes Knapp center isn't great. But they recently replaced the lights and upgraded the lower level seats and it looks brand new inside the seating area. It was all cosmetic but makes a big difference.
Old knapp (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/c163d78eca4833af5bf41e3b0d0b0d99.jpg)
Upgraded seating, lights scoreboard and court not stained with a yellow base stain
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/45e75ce98fef8639646c2b7878f82df4.jpeg)
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 22, 2017, 12:31:51 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 22, 2017, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 22, 2017, 10:13:12 AM
And....correct me if I'm wrong, but is the MVC now going after Murray St and Milwaukee but not Valpo? Or am I just paranoid we are being left out for those guys?
From what I can ascertain, the UWM rumor is mainly spinning off the MVCFAN board posts.
It's actually seeming to come from beat writers of the MVC and Murray State. I've seen references to it from Murray State, Indiana State, SIU and brief potential mention from UNI (who is an Indiana State alum)
I'm not sure I buy it yet, but there appears to be a smolder behind it. I wouldn't be shocked if Valpo and Murray were this year and a 12th was a year behind.
As for the arena upgrades: I don't care about expanding your capacity. If you can fill 5,000 then have 5,000. Though I'd guess filling 5,000 against UWGB and Youngstown State probably means 6.500 against UNI, Illinois State, Loyola, etc... is possible but so be it.
As I said earlier, I think the main concern upfront would be making it look like a D1 arena and not a large HS gym. New seats. Better lighting. I have no idea what the score board looks like. You would be shocked the difference modern lights and new seat backs would make in just making. The place feel brand new. Maybe a fresh coach of paint. I know your school colors are brown and yellow, but every game I watch on TV/photo o see the facility has a yellow and brown tint in the air. Not in the "school color" way but in the dark and old school lighting kind of way.
Drakes Knapp center isn't great. But they recently replaced the lights and upgraded the lower level seats and it looks brand new inside the seating area.
Old knapp [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/c163d78eca4833af5bf41e3b0d0b0d99.jpg[/img]
Upgraded seating, lights and court not stained with a yellow base stain
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/45e75ce98fef8639646c2b7878f82df4.jpeg)
That!
Plus, we already have a big 4 sided scoreboard with video capability hanging over midcourt -- very nice.
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/855799134623760384
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/855801585158561792
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 22, 2017, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 22, 2017, 09:12:50 AM
Quote from: wh on April 22, 2017, 08:30:40 AM
Just wondering what others think:
If the MVC were to invite Valpo to join, contingent on a commitment to upgrade the ARC within 5 years, what would be our answer?
Define "upgrade". If the definition was to take the capacity up to 7500 or 8500, then no. If it was to upgrade lower bowl seating to chair backs and expend restroom and concessions then I would think the answer could be a yes.
I agree. The contingency has to clearly be spelled out. Inside of 5 years, expansion is off the table and it is a 'no' as 72 says. A 10 year phased plan for expansion (northside) with visible upgrades to existing conditions (retractable chairback seating* in the south lower bowl, additional permanent, retractable bleachers on the east end line - possibly with chairbacks as well, additional restrooms and moved concessions), new sound system all completed within 5 years a definite 'yes.' The initial 5-year phase will do an awful lot to remove the HS gym stigma right off the bat but not destroy the great game time ambiance, and these are largely cosmetic, not structural. It preserves the space for non-game use by more than just basketball until there is enough money to complete the northside addition and the expansion that can go with that. In the meantime, we have a 5 year period to assess the level of attendance and improve our outreach and marketing to justify 6,500 seats (and I am of the opinion that a university of our size should not go beyond 6,500). There is much to be gained by keeping the home environment a close-in, fans-on-top-of-the-floor venue. As we demonstrated even in our current configuration vs. St. Mary's and Florida State, with the crowd in the game it's a tough place to get a visiting win.
* If additional chairbacks are installed I'd recommend also replacing the north side at the same time for a cohesive look.
Here's a website of an American company that produces this kind of seating:
http://larsoncompany.com/productsservices/bleacherseating/vipplatform.html (nicest)
http://larsoncompany.com/productsservices/bleacherseating/comfobackoption.html (still very nice)
Check out these chair back (called VIP and Comfoback) retractables. They have come a long way since the ones we have were developed. It would be nice to have a brown "V" chair pattern on a gold background on both sides as well. But, from the website it looks like we would only be able to have contrasting bases and backs or alternating same color sections (brown, gold, brown, gold). I would also replace the student bleachers with Larson regular bleachers (without chairbacks) for a fully cohesive "bowl" look. http://larsoncompany.com/productsservices/bleacherseating/plasticsculptureseat.html
I don't think the MVC would require a promise to renovate just from talking to a few people who didn't think the facilities were that big of an issue. Also seating capacity is not an issue from what I've heard. Thats just something fans often bring up.
But that doesn't change the fact that the ARC is in NEED of a pretty sizable facelift. If the MVC did require Valpo to make upgrades then I'm not sure Heckler or the Board would oblige them unless they were minor improvements.
It sounds like the first step for the University is the Student Rec Center and then the upgrades to the ARC. The giant fundraising efforts for the University has been doing has ZERO $ going towards the Rec Center or ARC improvements. The fundraising for these projects have been left completely to the Athletics Department to do and as Mark LaBarbera has stated recently that he has been unable to find a 'Lead Donor' for the Student Rec Center yet.
The Student Rec Center should be a University effort since it an amenity/selling point to ALL potential students and not just the Athletics Department.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 22, 2017, 12:31:51 PMAs I said earlier, I think the main concern upfront would be making it look like a D1 arena and not a large HS gym. New seats. Better lighting. I have no idea what the score board looks like. You would be shocked the difference modern lights and new seat backs would make in just making. The place feel brand new. Maybe a fresh coach of paint. I know your school colors are brown and yellow, but every game I watch on TV/photo o see the facility has a yellow and brown tint in the air. Not in the "school color" way but in the dark and old school lighting kind of way.
Not sure where are getting the lighting thing from. The lighting in the ARC is very good and bright. Not sure when it was upgraded if it needed to be. As for the scoreboard, it was installed in 2011. This is from the facilities section on the athletic site:
Most recently, the arena underwent an upgrade in the summer of 2011, as a four-sided full color video display board was installed above center court. New side scoreboards were also installed, as well as new shot clocks and LED lights around the backboards.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 22, 2017, 01:12:01 PM
If the MVC did require Valpo to make upgrades then I'm not sure Heckler or the Board would oblige them unless they were minor improvements.
It sounds like the first step for the University is the Student Rec Center and then the upgrades to the ARC. The giant fundraising efforts for the University has been doing has ZERO $ going towards the Rec Center or ARC improvements. The fundraising for these projects have been left completely to the Athletics Department to do and as Mark LaBarbera has stated recently that he has been unable to find a 'Lead Donor' for the Student Rec Center yet.
The Student Rec Center should be a University effort since it an amenity/selling point to ALL potential students and not just the Athletics Department.
The commitment to modern, upscale facilities was a big selling point for Loyola 4 years ago. Missouri State's President said as much publicly. In fact, he said that Loyola's commitment to facilities was by far superior to the other candidate schools (that means Valpo).
Now, fast forward 4 years. Only 3 weeks ago ml was quoted as saying that not only is there no plan for upgrading the ARC, that he and mh haven't even discussed it. The only "plan" they have is install A/C in Hilltop and fix the roof. That means they don't have a vision, strategy, financial plan, roadmap, timeline, or anything else necessary to even begin the process of upgrading the ARC. IMO if anything blows this opportunity to move to the MVC, this will be it. If the search committee was turned off 4 years ago by the University's lack of commitment to raising the profile of its flagship sport, imagine how they're feeling now.
The bottom line is this. If they're simply looking for the best available men's bb program, we're a shoe-in. If, however, they're using the same scorecard metrics from 4 years ago - best program, University commitment, and access to new markets - we're dead.
By the way, it doesn't matter if we think these other considerations are unimportant, it only matters what they think.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 22, 2017, 12:31:51 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 22, 2017, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 22, 2017, 10:13:12 AM
And....correct me if I'm wrong, but is the MVC now going after Murray St and Milwaukee but not Valpo? Or am I just paranoid we are being left out for those guys?
From what I can ascertain, the UWM rumor is mainly spinning off the MVCFAN board posts.
It's actually seeming to come from beat writers of the MVC and Murray State. I've seen references to it from Murray State, Indiana State, SIU and brief potential mention from UNI (who is an Indiana State alum)
I'm not sure I buy it yet, but there appears to be a smolder behind it. I wouldn't be shocked if Valpo and Murray were this year and a 12th was a year behind.
As for the arena upgrades: I don't care about expanding your capacity. If you can fill 5,000 then have 5,000. Though I'd guess filling 5,000 against UWGB and Youngstown State probably means 6.500 against UNI, Illinois State, Loyola, etc... is possible but so be it.
As I said earlier, I think the main concern upfront would be making it look like a D1 arena and not a large HS gym. New seats. Better lighting. I have no idea what the score board looks like. You would be shocked the difference modern lights and new seat backs would make in just making. The place feel brand new. Maybe a fresh coach of paint. I know your school colors are brown and yellow, but every game I watch on TV/photo o see the facility has a yellow and brown tint in the air. Not in the "school color" way but in the dark and old school lighting kind of way.
Drakes Knapp center isn't great. But they recently replaced the lights and upgraded the lower level seats and it looks brand new inside the seating area. It was all cosmetic but makes a big difference.
Old knapp (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/c163d78eca4833af5bf41e3b0d0b0d99.jpg)
Upgraded seating, lights scoreboard and court not stained with a yellow base stain
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/45e75ce98fef8639646c2b7878f82df4.jpeg)
Has it really made a *big* difference? Drake has lost 70 games in the past 3 years. They've literally declined in attendance every year for the past ten years.
I'm just dubious of the notion that the MVC knows how to spend Valpo's money to improve their basketball team more than Valpo themselves. Are valpo recruits really concerned about the seating situation at the arena, and choosing to attend Bradley and Drake instead?
If the MVC is serious about adding a school with an athletic department as dysfunctional as Milwaukee's it proves they learned nothing from the Loyola decision last time. I totally understand losing out to Murray State, but UWM is inexcusable.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: vu72 on April 22, 2017, 01:36:36 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 22, 2017, 12:31:51 PMAs I said earlier, I think the main concern upfront would be making it look like a D1 arena and not a large HS gym. New seats. Better lighting. I have no idea what the score board looks like. You would be shocked the difference modern lights and new seat backs would make in just making. The place feel brand new. Maybe a fresh coach of paint. I know your school colors are brown and yellow, but every game I watch on TV/photo o see the facility has a yellow and brown tint in the air. Not in the "school color" way but in the dark and old school lighting kind of way.
Not sure where are getting the lighting thing from. The lighting in the ARC is very good and bright. Not sure when it was upgraded if it needed to be. As for the scoreboard, it was installed in 2011. This is from the facilities section on the athletic site:
Most recently, the arena underwent an upgrade in the summer of 2011, as a four-sided full color video display board was installed above center court. New side scoreboards were also installed, as well as new shot clocks and LED lights around the backboards.
I have taken exact measurements of the light on the court in the past, and it is uneven at times. On some occasions not all the lights have been fully lit, which can leave the court seemingly dark in pictures. The photographers might have to boost their ISO to 4000 or more as a result. Also, there is a definite yellow cast that is caused by coloring from the yellow paint in the lanes, the center court logo, and when the overhead scoreboard is lit in yellow, which often happens because yellow is a dominant color for Valpo graphics—as well as the orange and yellow McDonald's logo on the underside of the scoreboard. (When the scoreboard graphic is pure white, the lighting improves 100%.) Unless correct white balance over-compensation is made, images of the ARC almost always have a yellow tint, and the players sometimes appear to have a touch of jaundice.
The photo of the Knapp Center at Drake reminds me of what I believe the biggest drawback is to the ARC -- it feels way too dark and ... I'm not sure of the right word -- confined, I guess. The photo of the Knapp Center in this thread doesn't really show how the windows, which are on the south side, make a big difference in the lighting and feel of the place. I live in Des Moines and have been to dozens of games at Knapp. It is way, way better than the ARC.
Windows along the north or west side would make a huge difference. Throw in chairback seats and get rid of the concession stand on the south end, and there you have it. Problem is, installing windows would entail redoing one of the main walls, and the board would probably never green light that kind of formidable expense. Too bad.
Paul
Quote from: a3uge on April 22, 2017, 02:10:10 PM
I'm just dubious of the notion that the MVC knows how to spend Valpo's money to improve their basketball team more than Valpo themselves. Are valpo recruits really concerned about the seating situation at the arena, and choosing to attend Bradley and Drake instead?
I don't think it's the MVC telling Valpo how to spend its own money to improve their [Valpo's] basketball program. I think the MVC does have some sway with respect to
how it wants its conference and the member teams to reflect the MVC brand and the image they want to project. Just like they should mandate OOC scheduling rules.
And from the Valpo side and recruiting, every little, tiny thing we can do to show an even greater, but fiscally reasonable commitment (be that air conditioning in Hilltop or replacement of all the seating in the main spectator area), could mean the difference between getting that 4* kid who, when all is even up, might choose the better arena to play in. Winning is in the details -- the great coaches are fanatics about every detail, so are the great players (re: Alec's attention to detail for the last 4 years) and it's what makes programs great. IMO these are details that need to be addressed and having the MVC put a little pressure on Valpo to go in that direction should be welcomed.
Quote from: wh on April 22, 2017, 02:07:53 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 22, 2017, 01:12:01 PM
If the MVC did require Valpo to make upgrades then I'm not sure Heckler or the Board would oblige them unless they were minor improvements.
It sounds like the first step for the University is the Student Rec Center and then the upgrades to the ARC. The giant fundraising efforts for the University has been doing has ZERO $ going towards the Rec Center or ARC improvements. The fundraising for these projects have been left completely to the Athletics Department to do and as Mark LaBarbera has stated recently that he has been unable to find a 'Lead Donor' for the Student Rec Center yet.
The Student Rec Center should be a University effort since it an amenity/selling point to ALL potential students and not just the Athletics Department.
The commitment to modern, upscale facilities was a big selling point for Loyola 4 years ago. Missouri State's President said as much publicly. In fact, he said that Loyola's commitment to facilities was by far superior to the other candidate schools (that means Valpo).
Now, fast forward 4 years. Only 3 weeks ago ml was quoted as saying that not only is there no plan for upgrading the ARC, that he and mh haven't even discussed it. The only "plan" they have is install A/C in Hilltop and fix the roof. That means they don't have a vision, strategy, financial plan, roadmap, timeline, or anything else necessary to even begin the process of upgrading the ARC. IMO if anything blows this opportunity to move to the MVC, this will be it. If the search committee was turned off 4 years ago by the University's lack of commitment to raising the profile of its flagship sport, imagine how they're feeling now.
The bottom line is this. If they're simply looking for the best available men's bb program, we're a shoe-in. If, however, they're using the same scorecard metrics from 4 years ago - best program, University commitment, and access to new markets - we're dead.
By the way, it doesn't matter if we think these other considerations are unimportant, it only matters what they think.
Yes the lack of progress or effort by President Heckler to see the need to make improvements to the ARC are a little frustrating but is not going to be the main significantly hurt Valpo's chances this time around from what I've heard.
The main priority for the MVC is getting the schools with the best basketball competitive schools that are within the geographic region of the MVC. And also getting schools that fit the MVC culture (Valpo fits perfectly). Yes the MO St president made those comments on Loyola's facilities back in the day but that was not the main factor in inviting Loyola. It was the Market of Chicago (which hasn't worked the way they've hoped it would). If WSU left before Creighton then the MVC likely would have taken UIC over Loyola that time. (WSU is Public and Creighton is Private).
The MO St was just trying to sell/justify the Loyola invite. When people are trying to justify anything in life they will point to whatever they can to sell people on something. Was Loyola's facilities a factor? Yes but it wasn't the main reason they got an invite. If we switched facilities with Loyola they would have still have probably picked Loyola over us because of the market. At that point in the MVC history they were looking to expand to larger markets (ex: Belmont was apparently rumored to have been offered privately but they didn't have interest in the MVC because OVC is very low travel and they could be "kings" of that conference.) It actually helps Valpo that the MVC picked Loyola last time because we are a perfect travel partner with them which means it will save MVC schools $ on travel costs and make scheduling pretty easy.
Will facilities be factored in the decision this time around? Yes but its mostly likely not the reason why schools will get an invite.
I agree we need upgrade facilities though and badly need a Student Rec Center. It baffles me the ignorance the administration has towards the need. Academics will and always be first at Valparaiso University (as it should be) but a self standing Student Rec Center is a standard facility at every 21st century University these days. I've said it before that it is a selling point to potential students.
As for upgrades to the ARC I'd love to see facility improvements not only to improve fans/paying customers experience (which may give a small boost to attendance if the ARC got a facelift) but mainly to attract the BEST recruits Valpo possibly can. I want recruits to be "impressed" (not unimpressed*) when they walk into the ARC or see their player facilities (practice facilities/weight room/training room/locker-room/offices/press-media room and concourse). To be honest I personally could careless about my own comfort and fan experience (but that may just be me). All I want to see is the best possible basketball product on the floor and an engaged and energized crowd.
Better facilities = better recruits = Winning = Better attendance/More Revenue/Boost Alumni Morale (= more donations for the University)
https://twitter.com/CBB_Central/status/855878067528630276
https://cbbcentral.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/what-should-the-missouri-valley-do/
WHAT SHOULD THE MISSOURI VALLEY DO?
By Kevin Sweeney
With Wichita State departing the Missouri Valley Conference for the American Athletic Conference earlier this month, "The Valley" has a big question to answer:
"Do we need to add more teams?"
The answer to that question is most certainly "yes". In a time in which it is harder than ever for mid-majors to get at-large bids (as the MVC saw itself this season with Illinois State), losing your premiere program without replacing it would be disastrous for the long-term future of the league. Without Wichita State, the Missouri Valley seems destined to be a one-bid league the vast majority of years unless it can add more teams to the fray.
So, who could join the Missouri Valley?
Murray State
Murray State seems like the most likely candidate to join the MVC. ..... (should read the rest)
Valparaiso
Another very logical potential addition, Valparaiso shares many of the same qualities as Murray State (other than being a private school). .....
UW-Milwaukee
UWM is a relatively new candidate to join the discussion. owever, they make a ton of sense as an MVC addition.....
Belmont
Early in the process, it seemed like Belmont was a frontrunner to leave the Ohio Valley and join the Missouri Valley.....
Highly encourage you to give the whole article a read. Kevin Sweeney does great work and is pretty in the know about MidMajor Basketball.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 22, 2017, 04:02:28 PM
[tweet]855878067528630276[/tweet]
https://cbbcentral.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/what-should-the-missouri-valley-do/ (https://cbbcentral.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/what-should-the-missouri-valley-do/)
WHAT SHOULD THE MISSOURI VALLEY DO?
By Kevin Sweeney
With Wichita State departing the Missouri Valley Conference for the American Athletic Conference earlier this month, "The Valley" has a big question to answer:
"Do we need to add more teams?"
The answer to that question is most certainly "yes". In a time in which it is harder than ever for mid-majors to get at-large bids (as the MVC saw itself this season with Illinois State), losing your premiere program without replacing it would be disastrous for the long-term future of the league. Without Wichita State, the Missouri Valley seems destined to be a one-bid league the vast majority of years unless it can add more teams to the fray.
So, who could join the Missouri Valley?
Murray State
Murray State seems like the most likely candidate to join the MVC. ..... (should read the rest)
Valparaiso
Another very logical potential addition, Valparaiso shares many of the same qualities as Murray State (other than being a private school). .....
UW-Milwaukee
UWM is a relatively new candidate to join the discussion. owever, they make a ton of sense as an MVC addition.....
Belmont
Early in the process, it seemed like Belmont was a frontrunner to leave the Ohio Valley and join the Missouri Valley.....
Highly encourage you to give the whole article a read. Kevin Sweeney does great work and is pretty in the know about MidMajor Basketball.
One error in the article: he writes, "Divide the programs into two divisions by geography to play an 18 game conference schedule (play teams in division twice and outside division once)." If there are six teams in each division and you play the other five in your division twice plus the six in the other division once, that adds to a 16-game conference schedule.
He also says it would maintain the equal divide between public and private -- actually, it would then be 5 private and 7 public (42% private). With WSU it was 6-4 (40% private). It certainly is a better situation for us vis a vis fellow privates than the HL.
And on a personal note, I like UWM over UNO and UMKC because of familiarity, a past history of success, a good chance (if the AD doesn't blow it) of a reinvigoration of MKE fan support, it's got lots of VU alums, and the fact that, for me, it's just a 90 minute drive to see Valpo play. :thumbsup: Braun 's job hinges on the next 3 years. The UWM BB program will get everything it needs to allow her to keep her job. I believe even Jimmy will concede that.
Even as it is today, they put out a pretty good game day product at the Panther Arena. Good Pep Band (faculty conductor), polished dancers and cheerleaders, they do a ton of time out promotions that keep the fan interest up throughout the event AND they serve BEER! We should take notes and steal some of that. They just need to recover from Braun's decimation of the program.
If we do get the invite. If we accept. Little Valpo will be in for the fight of our lives to maintain the level of excellence we've managed to reach up to this point. We'd be starting all over again in a new conference, just like we did in the HL. But isn't that how you want to go through life?
I have a plaque in our family room. It says:
Life should not be a
journey to the grave
with the intention
of arriving safely in an
attractive, well preserved
body, but rather it
should be skidding sideways,
body thoroughly used up,
totally worn out and screaming,
"WOO, HOO what a ride!"
Maybe Valpo could apply just a little of that here.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 22, 2017, 04:43:00 PM
And on a personal note, I like UWM over UNO and UMKC because of familiarity, a past history of success, a good chance (if the AD doesn't blow it) of a reinvigoration of MKE fan support, it's got lots of VU alums, and the fact that, for me, it's just a 90 minute drive to see Valpo play. :thumbsup: Braun 's job hinges on the next 3 years. The UWM BB program will get everything it needs to allow her to keep her job. I believe even Jimmy will concede that.
Even as it is today, they put out a pretty good game day product at the Panther Arena. Good Pep Band (faculty conductor), polished dancers and cheerleaders, they do a ton of time out promotions that keep the fan interest up throughout the event AND they serve BEER! We should take notes and steal some of that. They just need to recover from Braun's decimation of the program.
@PantherU has been tweeting that many fans have not liked the move to the Klotsche Center.
Valpo's Athletics Department FAR and away is superior at putting the best product on the court (at least in Basketball, volleyball, baseball, & soccer) but we could definitely take notes on the game day experience of the Panthers basketball.
Like you said:
-Good Pep Band (
faculty conductor)
-polished dancers and cheerleaders
-ton of time out promotions
-
they serve BEERReally wish they'd start selling beer. Its the 21st century (I could careless if Valpo is "Dry Campus" ;) ), but it'd be a revenue generator and it caters to the casual fan which is what Valpo needs. It doesn't break our school values or ethics or anything. A lot of schools are starting to serve beer at games now. Valpo FINALLY started having a beer tent and started serving alcohol during Homecoming to Alumni. Very smart move by the administration but a bit over due on their part.
Random Note: Did anyone else see that Oakland is "combining" their Dance Team and their Cheer Team? Apparently its causing a uproar at their school. Many OU alumni/fans think its a sign that OU is making cuts to their Athletics. There is no two way about it. They are "combining" the two too save $$, but it will be interesting to if its making budget cuts or reallocating those funds elsewhere in the Athletics.
I bring this up because a) we are talking briefly about game day experience for fans & b) if they are making cuts that could potentially affect the conference's competitiveness.
https://oaklandpostonline.com/16711/sports/athletics-preaches-innovation-in-decision-to-combine-cheer-and-dance-teams/
Athletics preaches innovation in decision to combine cheer and dance teamsMelissa Deatsch, Sports Editor
April 19, 2017A shocking change to Oakland University Athletics came on April 19, when the department announced the combining of the cheer and dance teams to form one spirit squad.
"
What we're looking for is a highly energetic add to our game presentation," Athletics Director Jeff Konya said. "
Student-athletes that can help us with marketing and promotions and really be a driving force in our game-day atmosphere."
This change puts the emphasis on the game-day experience, rather than the competitions that have been a large focus for both teams in the past.
"
It's really going to be more about the in-game and performance elements and trying to align what our fans love about the spirit squads, but give them the freedom and innovation to recraft and reimage what those performances are going to look like," Konya said.
The teams learned of the decision on Wednesday evening, and the idea was not met with strong support from many of the student-athletes.
Quote from: a3uge on April 22, 2017, 02:10:10 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 22, 2017, 12:31:51 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 22, 2017, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 22, 2017, 10:13:12 AM
And....correct me if I'm wrong, but is the MVC now going after Murray St and Milwaukee but not Valpo? Or am I just paranoid we are being left out for those guys?
From what I can ascertain, the UWM rumor is mainly spinning off the MVCFAN board posts.
It's actually seeming to come from beat writers of the MVC and Murray State. I've seen references to it from Murray State, Indiana State, SIU and brief potential mention from UNI (who is an Indiana State alum)
I'm not sure I buy it yet, but there appears to be a smolder behind it. I wouldn't be shocked if Valpo and Murray were this year and a 12th was a year behind.
As for the arena upgrades: I don't care about expanding your capacity. If you can fill 5,000 then have 5,000. Though I'd guess filling 5,000 against UWGB and Youngstown State probably means 6.500 against UNI, Illinois State, Loyola, etc... is possible but so be it.
As I said earlier, I think the main concern upfront would be making it look like a D1 arena and not a large HS gym. New seats. Better lighting. I have no idea what the score board looks like. You would be shocked the difference modern lights and new seat backs would make in just making. The place feel brand new. Maybe a fresh coach of paint. I know your school colors are brown and yellow, but every game I watch on TV/photo o see the facility has a yellow and brown tint in the air. Not in the "school color" way but in the dark and old school lighting kind of way.
Drakes Knapp center isn't great. But they recently replaced the lights and upgraded the lower level seats and it looks brand new inside the seating area. It was all cosmetic but makes a big difference.
Old knapp (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/c163d78eca4833af5bf41e3b0d0b0d99.jpg)
Upgraded seating, lights scoreboard and court not stained with a yellow base stain
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/45e75ce98fef8639646c2b7878f82df4.jpeg)
Has it really made a *big* difference? Drake has lost 70 games in the past 3 years. They've literally declined in attendance every year for the past ten years.
I'm just dubious of the notion that the MVC knows how to spend Valpo's money to improve their basketball team more than Valpo themselves. Are valpo recruits really concerned about the seating situation at the arena, and choosing to attend Bradley and Drake instead?
Drake has hired garbage coach after garbage coach. So no, it hasn't translated to wins. Facilities help but don't create wins simply by looking nice.
The Valley is all about how things are presented. I'm not concerned that the facility is costing Valpo any recruits. It's when Valpo gets the home ESPN game in Jan/Feb against UNI that the arena doesn't look dark, dank, and old on national TV. I wouldn't be shocked if there is discussion regarding it. This is important to the MVC, be it right or wrong. MSUs president wasn't just blowing smoke when he said Loyolas commitment to the facility was important. I have well connected sources that echoed the same thing. Sadly, it caused us to add the wrong school, in haste, last time.
What it looks like in person is/can be very different than TV and photos. Every game and photo I've seen in the ARC has that feel. It doesn't match the product I see on the court, which is disappointing. Due to the colors of the program it takes extra lighting effort in the facility to counter that.
UNI
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/45c311dd91819a94a28a81a0076be25d.jpeg)
MSU
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/4285b7cf8678ece7ce2bf6bc1c4f0ee3.jpeg)
Siu
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/c1b077f59f6a36fb928aae7752f484c0.jpeg)
ISUR
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/fffba56433ece25ec0973f1a10dab3af.jpeg)
Bradley
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/3d296d331f859c89b1716daff574f21a.jpeg)
ISUB-getting a 70m renovation
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/1c3b325b57f5dec14cbd0dad4f7a8d12.jpeg)
Evansville
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/d96b152b330a7200ebc90d7688bbe148.jpg)
Even Loyola is small but upgraded.
It's worth noting that when the arena is smaller the "presentation" counts for more than larger arenas. ARC would be the second smallest arena by over 2k seats, a head of only Loyola in size. Murray State is 8,600 and is a bigger, nicer, version of the Knapp.
Please don't take this as "I hate VU and don't want you in". Quite the opposite. I would like MUSU and VU. That means I want the arenas I will be watching in TV to look as nice as possible.
So while upgrades may not break the deal the unwillingness to commit to getting to "average" in the MVC could be a turn off for some.
Here's another OU rumor (started by me right now): Their "blacktop" playing surface will be even darker -- they are removing the stained wood surface and replacing it with state-of-the-art asphalt with computer-programmed and -designed cracks and hollows. In phase two, the nylon nets will be replaced with chain nets.
Snarkiness aside, depending on how they do it, it could be thinking outside the box that could produce an entirely different and positive game experience. Or not.
UNIFTW -- great pics. BTW, I'm saying this with a smile and no animosity, UNI's court picture has the most yellowish court. ;D
Yours is my argument as well. The MVC has the right to demand certain standards for membership. It's just like a Valpo fraternity/sorority -- they take a certain type of kid. Let's face it, education is a business. Valpo wants to improve in all aspects of its profile according to its mission statements. I believe it is not onerous to expect that if we want to move up to the next level that we should shoulder the burden of meeting minimal standards set by that level. That would apply if we wanted to jump to the next level in meteorological research.
We, without a doubt, bring great basketball to the table. We did this previously and got away without a lot of facilities investment (except for the new floor and scoreboard). I keep coming back to a one-time initial VISIBLE investment of new lower level chairbacks all around as the most logical way to provide that "TV presence" you refer to.
BTW UNIFTW, you have to watch the 2016 game against St. Mary's in the NIT to understand what a rockin place the ARC can be. The crowd is right on top of the action. It can be miserable for visiting teams (ask Florida State, URI and of course, St. Mary's) . Here is the link. Just go to the last 3 minutes. Then imagine what it will be to have MVC teams punked into that atmosphere (and on TV). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-5QzOSVS2Q
Better photo of the McLeod. Shows the difference the stain used on the court makes. This was our court until 2015
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/f9c2b25c7eb25488eb24b917ca1d8504.jpeg)
Again, I'm not questioning the on court production or that a place that size can rock when full.
I can also tell you we've been on ESPN dozens of times the last few years and every game there is none of the yellow color
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 22, 2017, 05:13:21 PM
If we do get the invite. If we accept. Little Valpo will be in for the fight of our lives to maintain the level of excellence we've managed to reach up to this point. We'd be starting all over again in a new conference, just like we did in the HL. But isn't that how you want to go through life?
I have a plaque in our family room. It says:
Life should not be a
journey to the grave
with the intention
of arriving safely in an
attractive, well preserved
body, but rather it
should be skidding sideways,
body thoroughly used up,
totally worn out and screaming,
"WOO, HOO what a ride!"
Maybe Valpo could apply just a little of that here.
How does our MBB budget compare in the MVC and in HL? Do we need to increase our budget to compete in the MVC?
Or does our current annual budget with 1x expenses to seating and a few other items in a timely manner designate the only cost increase?
Budget your about 5th or so at 2.66m. I've heard Murray State, currently at like 2.28m, tell the conference they are willing to get to UNI/Bradley/Evansville levels which is 2.99-3.01
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 22, 2017, 05:46:57 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 22, 2017, 02:10:10 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 22, 2017, 12:31:51 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 22, 2017, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 22, 2017, 10:13:12 AM
And....correct me if I'm wrong, but is the MVC now going after Murray St and Milwaukee but not Valpo? Or am I just paranoid we are being left out for those guys?
From what I can ascertain, the UWM rumor is mainly spinning off the MVCFAN board posts.
There are actual "legs" to the UWM rumors. It's not just Message Board Chatter.
It's actually being passed along or acknowledged by credible MVC media members.
But to be honest a lot the rumors start when lower staff members (schools athletics department) hear something (maybe even misinterpreting things) and talk to someone causing chain of the game telephone. But apparently people are hearing their name a little more.
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855558194403438592
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/855628597075341312
There is some very thoughtful sh&% being thrown around this forum. I hope that both MVC and Valpo decision makers are secretly looking at this stuff and factoring the logic and ideas into strategy and actions.
I'm not kidding, this could mean a significant alteration in both the future of the MVC and Valpo. I'm hoping one or both entities don't blow it.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 22, 2017, 07:55:17 PM
Budget your about 5th or so at 2.66m. I've heard Murray State, currently at like 2.28m, tell the conference they are willing to get to UNI/Bradley/Evansville levels which is 2.99-3.01
Yep we'd be middle of the pack. Currently we are 2nd highest in the Horizon League (slightly behind Detroit) but I'd imagine if we made the jump the MVC we'd have a slightly larger budget since there is more $ in the MVC then the HL. Murray States budget would likely rise as well.
I was on twitter the other day and jimmy tweet a few (well a lot*) interesting thing about how Murray State would fund the leap to the MVC if they were to get an invite. They would potentially funding the move (buy-out/entry-fee/increased travel costs) by raising tuition prices on students. I'm not sure that would fly at Valpo. I don't think we will need to do that.
Just in case anyone was wondering the buy-out of the HL is $500,000 I guess. The OVC buy-out is $1M (!) ouch (that seems particularly cruel) and on top of that Murray State would have to forfeit its shares if they did not inform the OVC within 2 years of leaving (brutal).
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855447528673816576
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855448384487948288
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855448640588066817
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855448872524664832
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855449329825439745
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855449688891326464
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855451023619624961
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855451403069870081
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855452892102262784
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855453131399983104
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855453389383139329
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855453509419970560
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855453959141691393
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855454566501974018
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855460912370786305
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855461495022465025
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855461813550538753
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855462343416979456
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855462720975626241
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855463026962681857
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855463775868268546
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855514163082387456
Holy cow 14 :o
But Jimmy's tweets are just smoke. Murray will (or have ) run the numbers and if they are prepared to accept a bid, they will do what it takes.
We know that Murray has already taken steps. But has UWM run their numbers yet? I wonder.
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855953335123423232
http://www.tribstar.com/sports/todd-aaron-golden-time-to-embrace-for-the-mvc/article_e20de4a2-27be-11e7-aa9e-4fc1de9d49d8.html
TODD AARON GOLDEN: Time to embrace 12 for the MVC
By Todd Aaron Golden Tribune-Star
If you've followed the Missouri Valley Conference for any length of time, the operative number everything has been based upon is 10.
A ten-school MVC has been the lay of the land in the Valley since 1991, other than 1996 when Tulsa and Evansville were ships passing in the MVC night.
Ten teams has worked well for the MVC and certainly worked to its advantage in its mid-2000s heyday when there were good matchups on the league slate nearly every night, which maintained a good league RPI. The MVC has long championed its round-robin basketball schedule as a league strength and there's plenty of fans around the MVC who feel the same.
Ten teams served its purpose, but times have changed. The disadvantage of ten has been borne out in the last months with Wichita State's dalliance with and then departure for the American Athletic Conference.
Most of the remaining nine teams in the MVC are currently below their typical historical men's basketball performance norms.
....
There's a way a 12-team, 18 or 20-game schedule can be done without having to go to divisions. For scheduling purposes only, split the 12 teams into three groups of four by geography.
For example, let's say Valparaiso, Murray State and Milwaukee are the schools added to the MVC. You could group schools as thus (teams are ranked in last season's Kenpom order):
Group A — Missouri State, Southern Illinois, Evansville, Murray State
Group B — Illinois State, Northern Iowa, Bradley, Drake
Group C — Loyola, Valparaiso, Indiana State, Milwaukee
......
Give the rest a click/read
Todd has some interesting ideas:
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855652149300269057
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855653261696782336
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855653857321508864
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855654228341161984
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/855656614015234050
This whole "millage" thing rings true of "mid-major"/"low major" in today's basketball world. Do you think for a moment Creighton things about transporting their women's basketball team to the East Coast? Do you think Butler has the same concerns? If we are going to raise our profile we are going to step it up on many levels. If the Missouri Valley doesn't work then we need to target the A-10.
The OVCs buy out isn't an issue for MSU. They approved a 1.46 million dollar slush fund for athletics almost exclusively for the exit fee.
The possible MVC footprint with Valpo, Murray and UWM is quite compact compared to the A10 and Big East. It is a true "major" MIDWEST MID-MAJOR conference. This would be a really great thing.
The A-10 already has 14 teams in the Conference. Its the best Mid-Major Conference in the country. (The Big East is up there with the P5 to make the P6, imo).
They are top heavy with teams like VCU, Dayton, Rhode Island, University of Richmond, SLU, Davidson. All very good Basketball programs but there is some fat in that conference that A10 fans have been complaining about: Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle (only made Tourney once in its A10 history). But to be honest that is first world mid-major problems and I'd say those schools have potential especially based on the league they compete in. It's not like they have a YSU or Cleveland State in their conference.
I just don't see where there is room for us. The only way I see the A10 expanding is if the Big East expands and invites SLU/Dayton (which what those schools really want). And if those two schools were to leave the A10 would it really be that attractive? Yes they are still a pretty good conference but it would be a big blow. There have been rumors that VCU is considering going FBS in the future. Not sure there is anything to that though.
There was the rumor that the Detroit reporter reported that said the A10 was making a push for Oakland when they were making the transition from the old Summit to the Horizon League ( :lol: :lol:). I'm calling BS. I just can't believe that for so many reasons (not to be harsh). He said that it was Oakland that cut off talks (to pursue the HL)... SMH...
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/843935739322630144
https://twitter.com/GaryMcCarrick/status/843945746068062209
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/843946357928869889
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/843975137758265344
Quote from: VU2014 on April 22, 2017, 09:53:28 PM
https://twitter.com/TonyPaul1984/status/843935739322630144
I just got my hands on the unedited transcript from that phone discussion:
Oakland AD: "Good afternoon, Commissioner. I've got a quick question for you. Would the A-10 be interested in adding Oakland?"
A-10 Commissioner: "Is this a practical joke?" (Click)
Quote from: VU2014 on April 22, 2017, 08:49:04 PMThere's a way a 12-team, 18 or 20-game schedule can be done without having to go to divisions. For scheduling purposes only, split the 12 teams into three groups of four by geography.
For example, let's say Valparaiso, Murray State and Milwaukee are the schools added to the MVC. You could group schools as thus (teams are ranked in last season's Kenpom order):
Group A — Missouri State, Southern Illinois, Evansville, Murray State
Group B — Illinois State, Northern Iowa, Bradley, Drake
Group C — Loyola, Valparaiso, Indiana State, Milwaukee
This is worth some careful thought. In the 18 game proposed format it combines reduced travel with a feature for the better teams to slightly supercharge their SOS and RPI. Year in and year out it might be best to put Illinois St and Northern Iowa in different groups but maybe not.
Question----- For scheduling simplicity and to allow for open and available facilities would the girls bb programs have to duplicate the mens schedules? If yes then would there be resistance? Obviously the mens and women's group rankings would never perfectly align.
Quote from: justducky on April 22, 2017, 10:41:46 PM
Question----- For scheduling simplicity and to allow for open and available facilities would the girls bb programs have to duplicate the mens schedules? If yes then would there be resistance? Obviously the mens and women's group rankings would never perfectly align.
I don't know how it works in the HL, but in the MVC MBB plays midweek games on Wednesday's and then half the conference on Saturday and half on Sunday.
Women's plays strictly Thursday/Saturday in conference season.
Mens basketball doesn't ad-hear to "travel partners" due to programs making money and able to fly to mid week games and be home that same night. Women's programs, and volleyball, utilize travel partners to the fullest extent. The reason for Thursday/Friday is they can bus (or fly if long distance) to one place on Thursday AM (or Wed night) and play that day, then spend Friday on a bus to the next location, then head home after. It's a cost savings measure. It's why a program like Oakland, UT-Arlington, NMSU, etc... can be talked about but won't happen.
This is part of the reason 10 worked perfectly. The travel partners have been
SIU/Evansville
ISUr/Bradley
ISUB/Loyola
UNI/Drake
MSU/WSU
This is part, if not largely, the reason 12 is in play. 11 makes travel partners tough for non-revenue sports. 11 would make a nice 20 game conference schedule, but the travel issues would outweigh it.
11 team partners
Missouri State would be alone
UNI/Drake
Valpo/Loyola
Bradley/Illinois State
Indiana State/Evansville
SIU/Murray
I'm guessing that's where Milwaukee comes in. The "potential" of growth there plus travel partners.
Drake/Missouri State-This is the worst one but there's nobody else to put with MSU.--6 hours
UNI/Milwaukee--4 hours
Bradley/Illinois State--90 minutes
Evansville/Indiana State--3 hours
Valpo/Loyola--1 hour
SIU/Murray--90 minutes
The drawback to 12 is unbalanced schedules. There are a billion options but none of them great. The MVC has long pride itself on a double round robin true champion - it's why 11 with a 20 game schedule is still on the table as an option. 12 is the most likely outcome. Maybe not this year but in a year or two. Go to 10 or 11 this year with the known intention of getting to 12 by 2019. I'd almost rather stay 11 now and force those who want the 12th spot to "prove" their worth for a year or two
Move in the making
TOPICS:Board Of RegentsMVCOvc
POSTED BY: ASSISTANT SPORTS EDITOR APRIL 22, 2017
Murray State President Bob Davies said athletics is an integral part of the school community and will consider the option to change conferences.
"We have an amazing opportunity to further our investment into collegiate athletics, enrollment, fundraising and alumni development and as an academic institution by pairing ourselves with similar peers," Davies said during the meeting. "As we think of this, we need to see how we can best enhance these opportunities."
http://thenews.org/2017/04/22/move-in-the-making/
If President Heckler were to publicly express this level of support for Valpo's program, I might just go into shock.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 21, 2017, 12:41:48 PMValpo may have the occasional bad year down the road, but those days are never, ever coming back, and records from that era shouldn't be used to indicate anything other than the complete lack of commitment the former administration had at the time.
Name the Valpo board members that have any kind of record of commitment to the athletic department other than President Heckler. Anything at all that indicates they want to help support athletics other than voting "yes" on someone else's proposal.
EDIT: I just thought of Andy Nunemaker in Milwaukee who has hosted an annual alumni/friends gathering at his home for several years in Milwaukee before/sometimes after the Valpo/Milwaukee basketball game. Good on Andy. That's one.
Christopher
Quote from: bbtds on April 23, 2017, 07:33:14 AM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 21, 2017, 12:41:48 PMValpo may have the occasional bad year down the road, but those days are never, ever coming back, and records from that era shouldn't be used to indicate anything other than the complete lack of commitment the former administration had at the time.
Name the Valpo board members that have any kind of record of commitment to the athletic department other than President Heckler. Anything at all that indicates they want to help support athletics other than voting "yes" on someone else's proposal.
EDIT: I just thought of Andy Nunemaker in Milwaukee who has hosted an annual alumni/friends gathering at his home for several years in Milwaukee before/sometimes after the Valpo/Milwaukee basketball game. Good on Andy. That's one.
As CEO it is President Heckler's job to sell men's basketball to his Trustees as a strategic investment to be leveraged, rather than an expense to be managed. Thereafter, the CEO develops a plan to turn vision into reality, and acts on it. This is exactly what Butler's president did several years ago and what Murray State is doing right now.
Valpo needs to get its act together. There is a lot more to long term success than simply doing a good job of managing the status quo.
Quote from: wh on April 23, 2017, 08:21:51 AM
Quote from: bbtds on April 23, 2017, 07:33:14 AM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 21, 2017, 12:41:48 PMValpo may have the occasional bad year down the road, but those days are never, ever coming back, and records from that era shouldn't be used to indicate anything other than the complete lack of commitment the former administration had at the time.
Name the Valpo board members that have any kind of record of commitment to the athletic department other than President Heckler. Anything at all that indicates they want to help support athletics other than voting "yes" on someone else's proposal.
EDIT: I just thought of Andy Nunemaker in Milwaukee who has hosted an annual alumni/friends gathering at his home for several years in Milwaukee before/sometimes after the Valpo/Milwaukee basketball game. Good on Andy. That's one.
As CEO it is President Heckler's job to sell men's basketball to his Trustees as a strategic investment to be leveraged, rather than an expense to be managed. Thereafter, the CEO develops a plan to turn vision into reality, and acts on it. This is exactly what Butler's president did several years ago and what Murray State is doing right now.
No argument as to Presidential duties. I'm trying to quantify the evidence of board to athletic department support.
After visiting the MVCFAN forum these past couple of weeks and seeing the great enthusiasm and involvement that fan base shows, I couldn't help contrasting that with the HL Fan Forum.
http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net
There's nothing really happening or no recent spirited discussions that I could find. There was one topic "Which HL teams will the MVC Poach?" that was started on April 10, one I thought would be really charged, but it had only 12 replies since then and there was a lot of talk about IPFW going D-II. Where's the passion?
Just one more piece of information that could fold into the decision-making process.
Quote from: bbtds on April 23, 2017, 08:41:15 AM
Quote from: wh on April 23, 2017, 08:21:51 AM
Quote from: bbtds on April 23, 2017, 07:33:14 AM
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 21, 2017, 12:41:48 PMValpo may have the occasional bad year down the road, but those days are never, ever coming back, and records from that era shouldn't be used to indicate anything other than the complete lack of commitment the former administration had at the time.
Name the Valpo board members that have any kind of record of commitment to the athletic department other than President Heckler. Anything at all that indicates they want to help support athletics other than voting "yes" on someone else's proposal.
EDIT: I just thought of Andy Nunemaker in Milwaukee who has hosted an annual alumni/friends gathering at his home for several years in Milwaukee before/sometimes after the Valpo/Milwaukee basketball game. Good on Andy. That's one.
As CEO it is President Heckler's job to sell men's basketball to his Trustees as a strategic investment to be leveraged, rather than an expense to be managed. Thereafter, the CEO develops a plan to turn vision into reality, and acts on it. This is exactly what Butler's president did several years ago and what Murray State is doing right now.
No argument as to Presidential duties. I'm trying to quantify the evidence of board to athletic department support.
I took your point to be that someone from the Board needs to step up and put some skin in the game. I'm saying that in order for that to happen, President Heckler first needs to make the business case to the Board that an upgraded ARC is critical to elevating the profile of VU basketball, and in turn an elevated bb profile is critical to elevating the Valpo brand. Recognizing upgrading the ARC as a strategic investment, rather than cosmetic fluff, could solicit a much more positive response. Unfortunately, mh's background is all at level where intercollegiate athletics is just a sideline. He only knows what he knows.
.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 23, 2017, 08:45:50 AM
After visiting the MVCFAN forum these past couple of weeks and seeing the great enthusiasm and involvement that fan base shows, I couldn't help contrasting that with the HL Fan Forum.
http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net (http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net)
There's nothing really happening or no recent spirited discussions that I could find. There was one topic "Which HL teams will the MVC Poach?" that was started on April 10, one I thought would be really charged, but it had only 12 replies since then and there was a lot of talk about IPFW going D-II. Where's the passion?
Just one more piece of information that could fold into the decision-making process.
I think what you'll be seeing on MVCFans moving forward - especially if it is Valpo and MUSU in - is that we are starting to get to a unified vision for the first time in years. There has always been a public/private (football) split that has caused a rift. I think what we are seeing moving forward, if/when WSU fans finally bugger off, is that fan bases like Creighton and WSU were actually dirving the divide by trying to big time the conference.
There is still left over, pent up, smack talk tendencies driven from always being talked down too by WSU and Creighton. What I'm picking up on is that WSU is like a hang nail, or splinter, getting pulled. When it happens the pain/shock of it hurt. However, after a few seconds - days/weeks in real world time - it starts to feel like the it is for the best. The skin starts to grow back together and heal together as one.
There will always been smack talk on MVCFans, but it seems like the fan bases can finally have a discussion, even if heated, without it getting personal. The presidents/admin of universities in the conference seem to have agreed to what the vision and path for the conference should be. Hopefully that continues moving forward .
To add some information that I think rolls into this thought, the Ohio Valley Conference has had a plan to increase the profile of all sports equally, which sounds great on paper, but is detrimental to each member of the conference. By doing that, you take resources away from areas where success can be had and where success can have a disproportionate impact. For Murray State, the sport that has had disproportionate success and impact has been basketball. This has been hindered by schools whose focus has been other sports (Eastern Kentucky, Jacksonville State in football, Tennessee-Martin in women's basketball, SIU-Edwardsville in Men's soccer as examples). While the success seen in these programs has been great, one must ask if the success seen by those school in those areas is as beneficial as national relevancy in basketball. Murray st fans would say no. I believe that Valpo fans would agree. The focus on men's basketball primarily is what draws Murray's interest. The success of the other sports makes it a no brainer (as we do care about other sports). The derived benefit of having a conference with a clear vision is part of the reason for the reception a possible move to the MVC has gotten from Murray fans.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 23, 2017, 12:13:05 PM
To add some information that I think rolls into this thought, the Ohio Valley Conference has had a plan to increase the profile of all sports equally, which sounds great on paper, but is detrimental to each member of the conference. By doing that, you take resources away from areas where success can be had and where success can have a disproportionate impact. For Murray State, the sport that has had disproportionate success and impact has been basketball. This has been hindered by schools whose focus has been other sports (Eastern Kentucky, Jacksonville State in football, Tennessee-Martin in women's basketball, SIU-Edwardsville in Men's soccer as examples). While the success seen in these programs has been great, one must ask if the success seen by those school in those areas is as beneficial as national relevancy in basketball. Murray st fans would say no. I believe that Valpo fans would agree. The focus on men's basketball primarily is what draws Murray's interest. The success of the other sports makes it a no brainer (as we do care about other sports). The derived benefit of having a conference with a clear vision is part of the reason for the reception a possible move to the MVC has gotten from Murray fans.
I think the consensus for most Valpo fans is that Valpo Men's Basketball should be the priority for the Athletics Department
a) because it is just far and away draws the most fan interest and support (people care about the teams success)
b) its a sport that "subsidizes" every other sport. We don't know the #'s on this but Valpo's Men's Basketball team actually has the ability to create profit to help elevate costs to other Sports at Valpo. When a Horizon League Men's Basketball team does well and wins a unit share in the Tourney the benefit is felt by ALL sports.
c) Men's Basketball is an amazing Marketing Tool for Universities to gain name recognition outside the schools region. (Would anyone (outside their region) really know schools like Gonzaga, St. Mary's, Davidson, even Butler without their Men's Basketball Team's success?) I've been on job interviews outside the Midwest after I graduated and in the interviews they see I went to Valparaiso University and they bring up the Men's Basketball Team. They recognized a Small Private Lutheran University from Northwest Indiana because of the Teams Basketball success. Valpo is very well respect/recognized for its academics within the Midwest, but outside the Midwest sometime smaller schools won't be recognizable on the resume.
d)I've shared this story before about how my friend who went to Butler during the both the NCAA Tourney Title Games run saw the Alumni Donations rise and Admission applications rise at Butler after the those glory years. (Some HS students love going to Universities with successful Football and Basketball teams. Some Students really want to be apart of that and its a recruiting tool for the University).
We clearly support/root for all our other sports teams to do well at Valpo but I don't think its too rude to say the average fan cares a little more about our Men's Basketball Team succeeding as opposed to our Nationally Ranked Women's Bowling Team (which President Heckler loves to tout). Men's Basketball should be the focus for the University and the Athletics for multiple reasons. It's no secret that the Men's Basketball is the bread winning sport at Valpo.
While I would selfishly like to see Milwaukee and Valpo go to the MVC, here are some things to consider about UWM going to the MVC.
If I am not mistaken, every MVC team has their stadium on-campus or easily within walking distance. Panther Arena (the old MECCA, but with a fairly nice remodeling) is not within walking distance to UWM.
There are no commuter schools in the MVC (interestingly, you could make a modest argument that Wichita State is a commuter school). As we see with schools like Cleveland State, there is not the identification with the program and the school when students commute.
Milwaukee's game against Valpo last year had great UWM student attendance and energy. However, they fed them as well as bused them to and from the stadium. Even if they were to do that for every game, it is not clear that students would take that many free offers.
UWM basketball is far down the list of what people get excited about in Milwaukee. UWM basketball will always struggle with tough competition (like Loyola). Packers, Wisconsin (basketball and football), Marquette basketball (who surprisingly struggles with attendance when they don't have a big opponent or the game is on a weeknight) and the Bucks provide a lot of options versus going to see and support UWM basketball.
Amended: I should have also said that people in Milwaukee get excited about beer, cheese, beer, pretzel rolls, cheese curds, beer, bratwurst, fish fries and beer. There are many options for all of those very close to where UWM plays.
Bradley is about a 30 minute walk - 5 min by car/bus. I think they run a shuttle for students who want to go. Some theorize that hurts attendance. They do have an on campus facility, but it is small and needs renovation compared to the Civic Center.
The Ford Center is over an hour walk from Evansville's campus. It's about a 10 minute drive. No idea on student shuttle.
UNI is on campus.
DU is on campus
SIU is on campus
MSU is on campus
LUC is on campus
ISUr is on campus
ISUb is on campus
https://twitter.com/cdl1018/status/856231443122585600
https://twitter.com/cdl1018/status/856231661536768001
https://twitter.com/cdl1018/status/856232793138921472
I know that it's all about MBB. I get that. But I also thought it a good thing at this point, just for general information, to also address the other MVC sports and how the potential candidates we've been discussing might fit into the overall MVC program and what they bring to the table. Note that both MSU and Valpo have football, but that is not a MVC sport -- it is a separate entity, the MVFC.
MURRAY STATE (12)
Men's Sports (4)
Baseball
Basketball
Cross Country
Golf
Women's Sports (8)
Basketball
Golf
Crosscountry
Soccer
Softball
Tennis
Track & Field
Volleyball
UWM (12)
Men's Sports (5)
Baseball
Basketball
Cross Country
Soccer
Track & Field
* Swiming & Diving (I don't believe the MVC sponsors men's S&D, only women at this point)
Women's Sports (7)
Basketball
Cross Country
Soccer
Swiming & Diving
Tennis
Track & Field
Volleyball
Valpo (16)
Men's Sports (7)
Baseball
Basketball
Cross Country
Golf
Soccer
Tennis
Track & Field
* Swiming & Diving (see comment above )
Women's Sports (9)
Basketball
Golf
Cross Country
Soccer
Softball
Swimming & Diving
Tennis
Track & Field
Volleyball
As my cable guy, Larry, says: Git R Done
For those MVC fans that are worried that our winning ways are done post-Bryce/post-Alec Peters, we just received another former 4 star commitment. If these guys play to their potential, we have another exciting 3-4 years coming up. Even if Lottich leaves, we have set in motion a winning program, that would be highly attractive to any coaches that want to work their way to a Power 5 school.
And I don't see Matt leaving inside of 5 years minimum. I say this because he is smart and he knows he has much more to learn before he makes the next move. At Valpo he can refine his craft, gain experience and, when the right job comes up, he will know confidently that he has accumulated all the tools to be an immediate success. He is not full of himself and is smart enough not to listen to the siren songs after just a couple of good seasons.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 23, 2017, 01:37:04 PM
Bradley is about a 30 minute walk - 5 min by car/bus. I think they run a shuttle for students who want to go. Some theorize that hurts attendance. They do have an on campus facility, but it is small and needs renovation compared to the Civic Center.
The Ford Center is over an hour walk from Evansville's campus. It's about a 10 minute drive. No idea on student shuttle.
UNI is on campus.
DU is on campus
SIU is on campus
MSU is on campus
LUC is on campus
ISUr is on campus
ISUb is on campus
Thank you for the clarification. I have only been to Illinois State, Bradley and Loyola. I should have realized that the Peoria Civic Center is downtown and not on or very near campus.
What is ISUb? I believe that the r in ISUr is redbirbs, but cannot figure out what the b in ISUb (presumably for Indiana State) means?
A bit of a head start on MVC abbreviateions for our, hopefully new conference mates.
If Murray State is added, as it appears, the Valley is going to have 2 ISUs and 2 MSUs - would also have 2 panthers is UWM comes along. UNI fans also have Iowa State we play. The FCS world has a couple other ISUs and MSUs. Thus we, as MVC and half of us FCS fans, developed the following system
Illinois State is ISUr, to a much lesser extent IlSU. The R is actually for red. It's a color connotation. It just happens to be a word in their mascot.
Indiana State is ISUb, to a much lesser extent InSU. The B is for blue, their primary school color.
For UNI fans Iowa State is IaSU, ISUc (cardinal) or ISUs ( :censored:). In the FCS world there is also Idaho State which is usually IDSU or ISUo (orange)
Moving forward I'm trying to start the MSU trend to avoid confusion. When I say MUSU it's Murray State and MOSU is Missouri State. I suppose we could also go MSUB and MSUM for blue and maroon but MUSU and MOSU are more fun.
If you see someone, mostly UNI fans reference sCUm it is Creighton University and all the scum and sleeve associated with them.
Come conference tournament time there is PIG and Drake Night. That's Thursday night in the conference tournament. It's the bottom 4 teams 7-10) playing in for the final 2 spots on Friday's quarterfinals. Thus PIG is Play In Game(s). It is also called Drake Night or the Drake Invitational. This is because Drake has been there something like 15 of the last 16 years or something crazy like that. The only year they missed was 08 when they somehow managed a top 20 ranked team that blew their 5 seed in the tournament.
EDIT
Oh, there is also Evansvilling/Got Evansvilled. This comes from Evansville's tendency to schedule garbage OOC teams and go like 11-1 or 9-3 in the OOC schedule and then finish sub .500 in conference play. Yet along the line they will beat at least 2 of the top 4 in the conference yet never beating other PIG teams. Getting Evansvilled is being the top team and losing to them at the worst possible time, which is always the case.
There is now a push that WSU fans were pushing about getting UNIed. UNI is known for our OOC SOS. He schedules we pull off are a bit legendary at the mid major level. This typically means UNIs OOC record is like 8-4 in a good year but 6-6 or 7-5 is likely. UNI then goes on to finish top 3 in the conference with between 10-13 conference wins. The thought is that UNIs OOC record hurts the conference by finishing that high. UNI hasn't been a PIG team in 15 years. Longest streak in the conference. Second longest was WSU who just got to 7 this year. UNi also hasn't finished below .500 in conference play at that time. UNI hasn't finished in 6th outright in that time either. Only time UNi has been worse than a 3, I believe, has been because of tie breakers.
I'm in favor of joining the MVC, if invited. I'm a private school snob and the MVC is a better fit for us academically.
However, there is a trade off. We made the tournament 2 times in about 10 years in the HL, a weaker league than the MVC. Beating out UNI and Illinois State is going to be a tall order. Not to mention that Drake, Bradley, and Evansville aren't going to stay downtrodden forever. We better be prepared for the possibility that our next Big Dance is a ways off.
Paul
If we want to go dancing more often maybe we should join the OVC instead.....I think playing in the mvc will boost recruiting. I hope we continue to have succes recruiting internationals as well.
Quote from: 78crusader on April 23, 2017, 08:09:48 PM
I'm in favor of joining the MVC, if invited. I'm a private school snob and the MVC is a better fit for us academically.
However, there is a trade off. We made the tournament 2 times in about 10 years in the HL, a weaker league than the MVC. Beating out UNI and Illinois State is going to be a tall order. Not to mention that Drake, Bradley, and Evansville aren't going to stay downtrodden forever. We better be prepared for the possibility that our next Big Dance is a ways off.
Paul
To be honest I'm not worried at all about being able to compete in the MVC. The Valpo teams of the last 7-8 years other then (Alec's Freshman year but team still had fight in it 18-15 (9-7)) would be a legit contender to finish with the Top 3-4-5 seeds every single year in the MVC.
Illinois State:IL St was really good last year and good under Dan Muller but they were not unbeatable (I'd actually pick Valpo to beat IL St most Muller's teams (not this past seasons though, although we'd certainly have a chance to beat them). IL St just graduated 2 of their 3 best players this year and their projected best player MiKyle McIntosh is transferring (grad transfer, he should stay, imo). They will not be the same team next season, but Dan Muller is a great coach and they should continue to be a strong program. We haven't played in the the last 15 years.
University of Northern Iowa:UNI is definitely a very good MidMajor program and should be good for the foreseeable future. They had a down year last year. Only time we played UNI in the last 15 years was back in the 04'-05' season (before my time). Looks like they spanked us at the ARC 67-49. http://www.espn.com/ncb/conversation/_/gameId/243652674
Loyola:Loyola hasn't been great but they have really put together good recruiting classes and they are my "sleeper" team in the MVC. They will surprise people.
Obviously we've played Loyola quite a bit because they were a Conference Rival in the HL. 7-5 (they swept us that first year we were in the HL back in 07-08)
Wichita StateNo Wichita State next year.
Indiana State:-We've beaten Indiana State (convincingly this year). Beat them last year too. We are 5-1 against Indiana State since the (01-02) season.
-Then we played them again back in (04-05) and we played them at their place on the road and the game went to OT 70-68 IN St Win. http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/243440282
-(03-04) We beat IN St 59-53 at home. http://www.espn.com/ncb/boxscore/_/gameId/233422674
-(02-03) We beat IN St 81-56 at home. http://www.espn.com/ncb/boxscore/_/gameId/223302674
-(01-02) We beat IN St 71-54 away. http://www.espn.com/ncb/conversation/_/gameId/213250282
Southern Illinois:Not worried about being able to compete with Southern Illinois either. They lost the Wright State this year. Don't get me wrong they are a good program but this is not the SIU of 10 years ago. They've had some below .500 years. SIU finished 3rd in the MVC this year 17-16 (9-9). Not a great year for the MVC. SIU has a great history and I'm sure they have the potential to get back to being a very good MidMajor team again. We have not played SIU for over 15 years.
Missouri State:We've played Missouri State 3 times in the last 5 years (1-home and 2-away) and we've beaten them all 3 times.
-(16-17) Valpo beat MSU 84-81 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400918177
-(15-16) Valpo beat MSU 74-45 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400818868
-(12-13) Valpo beat MSU 62-54 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/323502623
Bradley:Bradley has refused to schedule Valpo for a while. But they've fallen on some hard times, but I think Brian Wardle was a good hire for them. I think they'll be competitive again.
Evansville:E-Ville is a good program that had a tough year last year. The only time I remember us playing them in my time as a Valpo Fan was Alec's Freshman year (our "reloading" year but had a great freshman recruiting class). Of course they wouldn't schedule a home and home with us. They schedule us the year after the Broekhoff's great class graduated. It was an away game: they won 100-92.
http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400507075
-Valpo beat E-ville 75-67 back in (07-08) http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/273452674
-E-ville beat Valpo 69-64 back in (06-07) http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/263390339
Drake:Not worried about competing with Drake either.
-We played them last 2014-15 (an away game for us) and we beat them 66-46. Wouldn't schedule a Home & Home. http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400586327
Murray State:-(14-15) Valpo beat Murray St 91-58 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400596330
-(13-14) Valpo beat Murray St 77-74 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400503059
-(12-13) Valpo beat Murray St 66-64 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/323640093
Those were the only games I saw that we played against Valpo in the last 15 years. Murray State is another really strong MidMajor program with history.
I don't want to sound cocky but I really think Valpo can be a very competitive team in the MVC. I also think we'd likely finish in the top half of the MVC next next year and compete competitively with any other school in the conference.
I agree with oklahomamick. Staying in a weaker Conference is not the goal for the program. I loved what one of the Murray State Board Members said when they were addressing potentially leaping to the MVC: "You are who you compete against." The MVC is the better Conference for Valpo not only because its a group of schools that are very similar to Valpo (within the geographic region), but also the ceiling is higher longer term in the MVC then the Horizon League. The HL is going to be on an up-swing but they are few coaching poachings away from mediocre. I absolutely hate Belmont's President's strategy for their athletics program. Let them be "kings" of a weak OVC when (if) Murray State leaves. We should not stop striving to be the best we can be. I'm really optimistic many of the MVC schools will get back to high level they use to be at.
Butler could have almost guaranteed they'd make the Tournament every year if they'd stayed in the Horizon League. I think they made the right move for themselves to make the jump to A10 and then used that league to get themselves in a P6 conference.
Quote from: valpotx on April 23, 2017, 04:00:03 PM
For those MVC fans that are worried that our winning ways are done post-Bryce/post-Alec Peters, we just received another former 4 star commitment. If these guys play to their potential, we have another exciting 3-4 years coming up. Even if Lottich leaves, we have set in motion a winning program, that would be highly attractive to any coaches that want to work their way to a Power 5 school.
Loyola just got a 4 star recruit as well. What is this name of your guy?
Quote from: ISUBird on April 23, 2017, 10:19:57 PM
Quote from: valpotx on April 23, 2017, 04:00:03 PM
For those MVC fans that are worried that our winning ways are done post-Bryce/post-Alec Peters, we just received another former 4 star commitment. If these guys play to their potential, we have another exciting 3-4 years coming up. Even if Lottich leaves, we have set in motion a winning program, that would be highly attractive to any coaches that want to work their way to a Power 5 school.
Loyola just got a 4 star recruit as well. What is this name of your guy?
Joe Burton is our 4 star guy. He was a RS Transfer this year and he was transferring from Oklahoma State.
http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/joe-burton--2
Also Ryan Fazekas just announced he's transferring to Valpo from Providence today. He was ranked a 4 star recruiting coming out of HS by ESPN.
http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/ryan-fazekas
To be honest I think these scouting ranking are not very accurate and little overrated, but I'm not going to lie I get excited when we land 3 star guys and I think Joe Burton was the first 4 star player we have ever landed. Alec Peters (arguably the greatest player in Valpo's history, definitely on Mt. Rushmore) was an un-ranked player by both Rivals and ESPN. But Scouts gave ranked him a 3 star, but many knew he was a program changing recruit coming in his freshman year, but he definitely surpassed most everyones expectations. Really was a testament to his hard work and the coaching staff developing him. Alec really noticeably got better every single year.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 23, 2017, 10:19:57 PMLoyola just got a 4 star recruit as well. What is this name of your guy?
Ryan Fazekas will be a transfer from Providence with 2 years remaining after sitting next year. ESPN had him ranked #29 at his position and he was the #4 player coming out of Indiana his senior year 2015.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 23, 2017, 10:34:28 PMTo be honest I think these scouting ranking are not very accurate and little overrated, but I'm not going to lie I get exited when we land 3 star guys and I think Joe Burton was the first 4 star player we have ever landed. Alec Peters (arguably the greatest player in Valpo's history, definitely on Mt. Rushmore) was an un-ranked player by both Rivals and ESPN. But Scouts gave ranked him a 3 star, but many knew he was a program changing recruit coming in his freshman year, but he definitely surpassed most everyones expectations. Really was a testament to his hard work and the coaching staff developing him. Alec really noticeably got better every single year.
Agreeing with VU2014, recruiting rankings don't really mean a whole lot, but for those MVC fans afraid that VU might be taking a downward trend after Byrce and Alec, the team we put on the floor for the 2018-2019 season will probably be the highest "ranking" team from a recruiting aspect in VU history.
Quote from: FWalum on April 23, 2017, 10:41:11 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 23, 2017, 10:19:57 PMLoyola just got a 4 star recruit as well. What is this name of your guy?
Ryan Fazekas will be a transfer from Providence with 2 years remaining after sitting next year. ESPN had him ranked #29 at his position and he was the #4 player coming out of Indiana his senior year 2015.
Sitting out a year is unfortunate.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 23, 2017, 01:20:21 PMAmended: I should have also said that people in Milwaukee get excited about beer, cheese, beer, pretzel rolls, cheese curds, beer, bratwurst, fish fries and beer. There are many options for all of those very close to where UWM plays.
I heard they like to brew beer in Milwaukee too. ;D
Quote from: wh on April 23, 2017, 11:52:06 AMI took your point to be that someone from the Board needs to step up and put some skin in the game. I'm saying that in order for that to happen, President Heckler first needs to make the business case to the Board that an upgraded ARC is critical to elevating the profile of VU basketball, and in turn an elevated bb profile is critical to elevating the Valpo brand. Recognizing upgrading the ARC as a strategic investment, rather than cosmetic fluff, could solicit a much more positive response. Unfortunately, mh's background is all at level where intercollegiate athletics is just a sideline. He only knows what he knows.
I'm guessing MH has tried and his vision for athletics is falling on deaf ears. I believe MH will keep trying in the future when other board members expire.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 23, 2017, 10:54:19 PM
Quote from: FWalum on April 23, 2017, 10:41:11 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 23, 2017, 10:19:57 PMLoyola just got a 4 star recruit as well. What is this name of your guy?
Ryan Fazekas will be a transfer from Providence with 2 years remaining after sitting next year. ESPN had him ranked #29 at his position and he was the #4 player coming out of Indiana his senior year 2015.
Sitting out a year is unfortunate.
I don't mind having one worthwhile transfer sitting out every year. But three? Don't even think about it! Case in point VU 16-17. Started with 10 eligible scholarship players then watched as the seniors one by one fell to the wayside. Thats how you get a walk on logging 22 minutes a game by seasons end. Don't try this at home. It is not Normal.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 23, 2017, 10:54:19 PM
Quote from: FWalum on April 23, 2017, 10:41:11 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 23, 2017, 10:19:57 PMLoyola just got a 4 star recruit as well. What is this name of your guy?
Ryan Fazekas will be a transfer from Providence with 2 years remaining after sitting next year. ESPN had him ranked #29 at his position and he was the #4 player coming out of Indiana his senior year 2015.
Sitting out a year is unfortunate.
Larry Bird sat out the 75-76 season due to transfer. Did anyone say Larry having to sit out a year was unfortunate?
Quote from: VU2014 on April 23, 2017, 10:34:28 PM
Joe Burton is our 4 star guy. He was a RS Transfer this year and he was transferring from Oklahoma State.
http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/joe-burton--2
Also Ryan Fazekas just announced he's transferring to Valpo from Providence today. He was ranked a 4 star recruiting coming out of HS by ESPN.
http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/ryan-fazekas
To be honest I think these scouting ranking are not very accurate and little overrated, but I'm not going to lie I get excited when we land 3 star guys and I think Joe Burton was the first 4 star player we have ever landed. Alec Peters (arguably the greatest player in Valpo's history, definitely on Mt. Rushmore) was an un-ranked player by both Rivals and ESPN. But Scouts gave ranked him a 3 star, but many knew he was a program changing recruit coming in his freshman year, but he definitely surpassed most everyones expectations. Really was a testament to his hard work and the coaching staff developing him. Alec really noticeably got better every single year.
I didn't notice your comment about Joe Burton. It's exciting to have two players at that level. It looks like good times ahead.
Quote from: justducky on April 23, 2017, 11:15:39 PM
I don't mind having one worthwhile transfer sitting out every year. But three? Don't even think about it! Case in point VU 16-17. Started with 10 eligible scholarship players then watched as the seniors one by one fell to the wayside. Thats how you get a walk on logging 22 minutes a game by seasons end. Don't try this at home. It is not Normal.
That certainly would be bad. Who do you think will be starting for you guys next year?
Quote from: bbtds on April 23, 2017, 11:18:21 PM
Larry Bird sat out the 75-76 season due to transfer. Did anyone say Larry having to sit out a year was unfortunate?
Why wouldn't that also be unfortunate? If you know someone is good you obviously would want to have them play right away.
It is unfortunate that he will have to sit a year. Unfortunately he will get to practice with the team and not miss a beat when he becomes eligible. Unfortunately he will have a year to get stronger and healthier in the weight room. Unfortunate for our conference foes that he will have to sit a year.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 24, 2017, 08:37:52 AMWho do you think will be starting for you guys next year?
At this point I would think it is Joe Burton, because he is Joe Burton. Bakari Evelyn, because our starting point guard is transferring because of Bakari Evelyn. One of our 7 footers at the 5, (pretty equal, both started games last year), Tevonn Walker (second team all conference last year) and possibly Parker Hazen at the 4. He is a freshman but is very athletic and is used to playing on the inside. That would make us 7', 6'8", 6'6", 6'3" and 6'2" for starters.
Coming off the bench we bring in another 7' sophomore, a 6'1" senior, a 6'5" sophomore who started games near the end of last year, a 6'2" explosive sophomore and a 6'7" freshman. again, used to playing on the inside and very athletic or 6'6" Markus Golder who is a JC transfer. Some have indicated his ability will put him in the starting lineup which would move Hazen to the second team. That's 11 deep with good size and athleticism. I'm getting excited!! :dance:
Quote from: ISUBird on April 24, 2017, 08:37:52 AM
I didn't notice your comment about Joe Burton. It's exciting to have two players at that level. It looks like good times ahead.
As noted on another thread, Valpo will have 5 3&4-Star players on next year's roster (6 players > 2):
4-Star Joe Burton 6-6
3.3-Star Ryan Fazekus 6-8 (4 and two 3's)
3-Star Parker Hazen 6-7
3-Star Bakari Evelyn 6-2
3-Star Derrik Smits 7-2
2.5 Star Micah Bradford 6-2
Would you happen to know how that compares with MVC teams?
Just a quick update. I am hearing rumor (TIFWIW) about visits this week (Tuesday in Murray, Wednesday in Valpo prior to a BOR meeting).
Have no clue if this is true, but thought you guys might run it down with people you may know.
I believe it's pretty much confirmed that the MVC will be on campus this week for Tours/Board Meetings.
Which means that this thread has come full circle and is once again completely relevant/true to it's original title
So you guys can confirm that 1) there is a Board meeting for you guys 2) it is wednesday 3) MVC officials will be on your campus?
Those who would like more attention from Jim Peters may have gotten their wish. Nice article about Ryan transferring in:
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/college/marquette-catholic-grad-fazekas-transferring-to-valparaiso/article_6260c42e-5766-5716-9fac-c81e2a2081fc.html
1. Yes 2. :-X 3. :-X :-X
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 24, 2017, 10:16:12 AM
So you guys can confirm that 1) there is a Board meeting for you guys 2) it is wednesday 3) MVC officials will be on your campus?
We have a Board Meeting this week and I almost guarantee you that they will privately be addressing the potential switch to MVC.
Nobody can confirm that the MVC will be on campus this week or at the Board Meeting. UNIFTW mentioned that he heard someone mention the MVC will be on campus on twitter. Nobody from Valpo is publicly acknowledging the possible MVC visits yet.
It's reasonable to assume that the MVC officials will be taking campus visits to Valpo, Murray State and the other potential schools at some point in the next few weeks.
Hope we present well and say all the right things.
MVC - North
Drake
UNI
UWM
Loyola
Valpo
Bradley
MVC - South
Missouri State
Illinois State
Southern Illinois
Indian State
Evansville
Murray State
Problem is all but one private school in same division.....But regardless the above is much more exciting than current HL
Quote from: M on April 24, 2017, 08:38:59 AM
It is unfortunate that he will have to sit a year. Unfortunately he will get to practice with the team and not miss a beat when he becomes eligible. Unfortunately he will have a year to get stronger and healthier in the weight room. Unfortunate for our conference foes that he will have to sit a year.
I disagree, not playing in a real game for a year isn't good.
Quote from: vu72 on April 24, 2017, 08:57:34 AM
At this point I would think it is Joe Burton, because he is Joe Burton. Bakari Evelyn, because our starting point guard is transferring because of Bakari Evelyn. One of our 7 footers at the 5, (pretty equal, both started games last year), Tevonn Walker (second team all conference last year) and possibly Parker Hazen at the 4. He is a freshman but is very athletic and is used to playing on the inside. That would make us 7', 6'8", 6'6", 6'3" and 6'2" for starters.
Coming off the bench we bring in another 7' sophomore, a 6'1" senior, a 6'5" sophomore who started games near the end of last year, a 6'2" explosive sophomore and a 6'7" freshman. again, used to playing on the inside and very athletic or 6'6" Markus Golder who is a JC transfer. Some have indicated his ability will put him in the starting lineup which would move Hazen to the second team. That's 11 deep with good size and athleticism. I'm getting excited!! :dance:
Two players at seven feet could be impressive if they can be your top players.
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2017, 09:27:17 AM
As noted on another thread, Valpo will have 5 3&4-Star players on next year's roster (6 players > 2):
4-Star Joe Burton 6-6
3.3-Star Ryan Fazekus 6-8 (4 and two 3's)
3-Star Parker Hazen 6-7
3-Star Bakari Evelyn 6-2
3-Star Derrik Smits 7-2
2.5 Star Micah Bradford 6-2
Would you happen to know how that compares with MVC teams?
This thread talks about ISU's possible line-up, but I wouldn't know for the rest of the conference.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 10:45:03 AM
Hope we present well and say all the right things.
MVC - North
Drake
UNI
UWM
Loyola
Valpo
Bradley
MVC - South
Missouri State
Illinois State
Southern Illinois
Indian State
Evansville
Murray State
Problem is all but one private school in same division.....But regardless the above is much more exciting than current HL
If ISU and Bradley don't play each other twice a year there will be endless complaints from both sides.
I'm also not sold on Milwaukee.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 10:45:03 AM
Hope we present well and say all the right things.
MVC - North
Drake
UNI
UWM
Loyola
Valpo
Bradley
MVC - South
Missouri State
Illinois State
Southern Illinois
Indian State
Evansville
Murray State
Problem is all but one private school in same division.....But regardless the above is much more exciting than current HL
You have to Pair IL St and Bradley in the same division. Either way you put the divisions together some schools won't be happy & will need travel more. Unhappy members is never good for the Conf.
North: -Loyola
-Valpo
-UWM
-Illinois State
-Bradley
-Northern Iowa
South: -Missouri State
-Murray State
-Evansville
-Indiana State
-Southern Illinois
-Drake
Only thing is Drake would get screwed(& be unhappy)
Or
North: -Loyola
-Valpo
-UWM
-Illinois State
-Bradley
-Indiana State
South: -Missouri State
-Murray State
-Evansville
-Southern Illinois
-Drake
-Northern Iowa
Provides the South with a travel partner UNI/Drake
Just posted this in the MVC Fan Board:
The best schools available are Valpo and Murray State. So go 11 teams (play a 20 game Conference regular season) and wait a year or two and make a school like Milwaukee or some other school earn their invite to the MVC. Put on a 1-2 year tryout.
Maybe Belmont changes their mind or maybe the A10 slips (a team or 2 gets poached) and SLU or Dayton look else where. For SLU or Dayton to even consider the MVC is for the need improve and add the best basketball schools possible (both Valpo/Murray St) and show that the MVC can still be a 2-bid league. Still unlikely the MVC lands SLU or Dayton. Valpo/Murray St are a shot in the arm and programs like IL St/UNI need to keep the success going and SIU, Bradley, E-ville, IN St, MO St need to get back to historical success. The bones are there for those programs. Loyola hasn't been great, but they have stacked together back to back good recruiting classes and they will be better and surprise some fans.
I want to clear up a couple things about my twitter
1. I'm not a journalist. I have no reputation at stake. I'm not a super secret inside source. I could be a billion percent wrong. However, I am really good at putting messages from a bunch of people together - and asking the right people behind the scenes. I heard similar enough stories privately that made me want to go with it.
2. I have 168 followers, about 15 of which from this weekend. I have a decent track record on smaller things but don't take anything I say as absolute insider knowledge.
3. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Sorry. I am an opinionated fan. Never claimed to be correct. I'll admit I was wrong and in a couple weeks no one will remember me because I'll be unfollowed by the new followers and my timeline will fill up with my tweets so fast that finding what I said will be hard.
Maybe I'm pushing and hoping for Milwaukee only to screw LeCrone.....and the HL.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 24, 2017, 10:55:43 AM
I want to clear up a couple things about my twitter
1. I'm not a journalist. I have no reputation at stake. I'm not a super secret inside source. I could be a billion percent wrong. However, I am really good at putting messages from a bunch of people together - and asking the right people behind the scenes. I heard similar enough stories privately that made me want to go with it.
2. I have 168 followers, about 15 of which from this weekend. I have a decent track record on smaller things but don't take anything I say as absolute insider knowledge.
3. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Sorry. I am an opinionated fan. Never claimed to be correct. I'll admit I was wrong and in a couple weeks no one will remember me because I'll be unfollowed by the new followers and my timeline will fill up with my tweets so fast that finding what I said will be hard.
No worries. I think we all appreciate you for sharing what you hear. I think everyone knows what you are relaying isn't "fact" but more or less what you are hearing.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 10:57:10 AM
Maybe I'm pushing and hoping for Milwaukee only to screw LeCrone.....and the HL.
The OU fans are in a bit of panic right now. They left the Summit to come to the HL and join us and now we're possibly on the way out and maybe MKE is on the way out also.
The potential replacement list for the HL are not pretty. Omaha, maybe Denver and IPFW and IUPUI... (by no means would I want to be a conference with IPFW or IUPUI). I highly recommend the HL don't take the latter two.
Also, UNI/Drake won't be split if there is divisions - and no reason to go to divisions with 11.
Bradley/ISUr and Drake/UNI are two games that won't be messed with going forward. Those must be played twice per year. As much as Drake's RPI hurts UNI that is a non-negotiable.
What about an East/West split?
UWM
Loyola
Valpo
Indiana St
Evansville
Murray St
Bradley
Illinois St
So Illinois
No Iowa
Drake
Missouri St
As an aside, if we're bringing a second HL school with us, I'd prefer Green Bay, Wright State, or even Oakland to UWM. In no way is this a rumor, just my $0.02.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 24, 2017, 11:51:49 AM
What about an East/West split?
UWM
Loyola
Valpo
Indiana St
Evansville
Murray State
Bradley
Illinois St
So Illinois
No Iowa
Drake
Missouri St
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Probably not the most Cost Effective Travel doing East vs West divisions.
I think, barring something changing this week, the MVC rolls 11 for at least a year.
There's no good way to do divisions.
The MVC takes it's public/private split very seriously. If we go to 12 it will have to be a 6/6 public private split. UWM may have smoke now, but I'm not sure I see it.
I won't be shocked to see 11 until SLU finally figures out the Big East isn't happening and the A10 stars to fracture.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 24, 2017, 10:55:43 AM
I want to clear up a couple things about my twitter
What's your handle? In a moment of searching I couldn't turn it up.
What do you think the likely hood of Valpo getting the invite?
60% going to mvc?
70% going to mvc?
Or higher? Or even lower?
Sounds like Murray St. has a higher chance....
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 12:23:43 PM
What do you think the likely hood of Valpo getting the invite?
60% going to mvc?
70% going to mvc?
Or higher? Or even lower?
Sounds like Murray St. has a higher chance....
I'm still feeling burned by the Loyola move. I'll guess 20% we're in the MVC in the 2017-18 or 2018-19 season.
Quote from: agibson on April 24, 2017, 12:26:33 PMQuote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 12:23:43 PMWhat do you think the likely hood of Valpo getting the invite? 60% going to mvc? 70% going to mvc? Or higher? Or even lower? Sounds like Murray St. has a higher chance....
I'm still feeling burned by the Loyola move. I'll guess 20% we're in the MVC in the 2017-18 or 2018-19 season.
That's very low....
Does the MVC invite one or Two? Could they be touring back to back days, attend the BoR meeting for comparison purposes since Murray states was public?
Loyola still might be the correct 5-10 year pick with their new facilities and if they get the team turned around. With losing Creighton and WSU, they dont have the luxury of building a university into a contender but need some bball firepower right away. Hopefully whatever held us back last time is not the same as this time because not much has changed facility wise. If i had to take a guess, im guessing a little more likely right now that we'll be in mvc next year than the HL....obviously this week is big and should get some indication one way or another
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 24, 2017, 12:44:23 PM
Does the MVC invite one or Two? Could they be touring back to back days, attend the BoR meeting for comparison purposes since Murray states was public?
Loyola still might be the correct 5-10 year pick with their new facilities and if they get the team turned around. With losing Creighton and WSU, they dont have the luxury of building a university into a contender but need some bball firepower right away. Hopefully whatever held us back last time is not the same as this time because not much has changed facility wise. If i had to take a guess, im guessing a little more likely right now that we'll be in mvc next year than the HL....obviously this week is big and should get some indication one way or another
If its all about rebuilding the basketball brand then the MVC cannot make another Loyola mistake. Facilities do not equate to winning. Look at the current facilities of the MVC bottom feeders. Much better than lowly Valpo. Yet somehow we attracted Joe Burton, Bakari Evelyn and now, Ryan Fazekas. If facilities were the draw then Northern Kentucky would be Shew in.
Quote from: agibson on April 24, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 24, 2017, 10:55:43 AM
I want to clear up a couple things about my twitter
What's your handle? In a moment of searching I couldn't turn it up.
@cdl1018
For all we know every duck is already lined up, they're all at attention in full dress style and only formalities remain. However, only those in very high places (MVC officials and the candidate school(s) ) really know for sure. Although I dont share agibson's pessimistic 20% (but do share his burned feelings), I am hopeful that when the dust clears, there will be at least 2 invitations announced and accepted and I fervently hope one is Valpo. I sent letters to MLB and MH this morning expressing that.
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2017, 09:27:17 AM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 24, 2017, 08:37:52 AM
I didn't notice your comment about Joe Burton. It's exciting to have two players at that level. It looks like good times ahead.
As noted on another thread, Valpo will have 5 3&4-Star players on next year's roster (6 players > 2):
4-Star Joe Burton 6-6
3.3-Star Ryan Fazekus 6-8 (4 and two 3's)
3-Star Parker Hazen 6-7
3-Star Bakari Evelyn 6-2
3-Star Derrik Smits 7-2
2.5 Star Micah Bradford 6-2
Would you happen to know how that compares with MVC teams?
According to Verbal Commits, the Valpo average is 2.444, which will likely go up once seniors are off the board and all newcomers are enrolled. The MVC is:
http://www.verbalcommits.com/conferences/missouri-valley
You can click on average stars to sort.
Without Wichita St it is:
Loyola 2.364
Illinois St 2.306
S. Illinois 2.256
Bradley 2.233
Drake 2.182
Ind St 2.111
Mizz St 2.091
E'Ville 2.051
N. Iowa 2.038
As you can see, Valpo should compete from day 1. I would not expect UNI to remain that low for too long.
We should create a poll on "Do you think we are going?" and "Do you think we should?"
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 01:13:55 PM
We should create a poll on "Do you think we are going?" and "Do you think we should?"
I think it would be interesting to see the poll of where everyone stands. I'm for it.
Quote from: covufan on April 24, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2017, 09:27:17 AM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 24, 2017, 08:37:52 AM
I didn't notice your comment about Joe Burton. It's exciting to have two players at that level. It looks like good times ahead.
As noted on another thread, Valpo will have 5 3&4-Star players on next year's roster (6 players > 2):
4-Star Joe Burton 6-6
3.3-Star Ryan Fazekus 6-8 (4 and two 3's)
3-Star Parker Hazen 6-7
3-Star Bakari Evelyn 6-2
3-Star Derrik Smits 7-2
2.5 Star Micah Bradford 6-2
Would you happen to know how that compares with MVC teams?
According to Verbal Commits, the Valpo average is 2.444, which will likely go up once seniors are off the board and all newcomers are enrolled. The MVC is:
http://www.verbalcommits.com/conferences/missouri-valley
You can click on average stars to sort.
Without Wichita St it is:
Loyola 2.364
Illinois St 2.306
S. Illinois 2.256
Bradley 2.233
Drake 2.182
Ind St 2.111
Mizz St 2.091
E'Ville 2.051
N. Iowa 2.038
As you can see, Valpo should compete from day 1. I would not expect UNI to remain that low for too long.
Valpo 2.444
Loyola 2.364Illinois St 2.306
S. Illinois 2.256
Bradley 2.233
Drake 2.182
Ind St 2.111
Mizz St 2.091
E'Ville 2.051
N. Iowa 2.038
There appears to be an indirect correlation between "avg. stars" and facility seating capacity. Maybe we've uncovered a hidden recruiting consideration - the "echo" factor. ;)
Quote from: VU2014 on April 24, 2017, 01:25:18 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 01:13:55 PM
We should create a poll on "Do you think we are going?" and "Do you think we should?"
I think it would be interesting to see the poll of where everyone stands. I'm for it.
If you recall, Paul did a Twitter poll early on, had maybe
200 244 hits and it came out 66%/34% GO MVC.
[tweet]849667283077263360[/tweet]
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2017, 01:26:10 PM
Quote from: covufan on April 24, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2017, 09:27:17 AM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 24, 2017, 08:37:52 AM
I didn't notice your comment about Joe Burton. It's exciting to have two players at that level. It looks like good times ahead.
As noted on another thread, Valpo will have 5 3&4-Star players on next year's roster (6 players > 2):
4-Star Joe Burton 6-6
3.3-Star Ryan Fazekus 6-8 (4 and two 3's)
3-Star Parker Hazen 6-7
3-Star Bakari Evelyn 6-2
3-Star Derrik Smits 7-2
2.5 Star Micah Bradford 6-2
Would you happen to know how that compares with MVC teams?
According to Verbal Commits, the Valpo average is 2.444, which will likely go up once seniors are off the board and all newcomers are enrolled. The MVC is:
http://www.verbalcommits.com/conferences/missouri-valley
You can click on average stars to sort.
Without Wichita St it is:
Loyola 2.364
Illinois St 2.306
S. Illinois 2.256
Bradley 2.233
Drake 2.182
Ind St 2.111
Mizz St 2.091
E'Ville 2.051
N. Iowa 2.038
As you can see, Valpo should compete from day 1. I would not expect UNI to remain that low for too long.
Valpo 2.444
Loyola 2.364
Illinois St 2.306
S. Illinois 2.256
Bradley 2.233
Drake 2.182
Ind St 2.111
Mizz St 2.091
E'Ville 2.051
N. Iowa 2.038
There appears to be an indirect correlation between "avg. stars" and facility seating capacity. Maybe we've uncovered a hidden recruiting consideration - the "echo" factor (The bigger the venue, the higher the percentage of empty seats. The higher the percentage of empty seats, the more sounds echo. The more sounds echo, the more recruits are turned off.) ;)
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 12:23:43 PM
What do you think the likely hood of Valpo getting the invite?
60% going to mvc?
70% going to mvc?
Or higher? Or even lower?
Sounds like Murray St. has a higher chance....
This is like throwing darts at a board but:
If the MVC moves to 10 teams, I think Valpo's chances are 40%.
If the MVC moves to 11 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 65%.
If the MVC moves to 12 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 75%.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 24, 2017, 01:27:30 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 24, 2017, 01:25:18 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 01:13:55 PM
We should create a poll on "Do you think we are going?" and "Do you think we should?"
I think it would be interesting to see the poll of where everyone stands. I'm for it.
If you recall, Paul did a Twitter poll early on, had maybe 200 244 hits and it came out 66%/34% GO MVC.
[tweet]849667283077263360[/tweet]
Yeah but that was just asking if people thought it was the better conference for Valpo. I'd say that most Valpo fans think the MVC is the better conference for us. Also keep in mind that many fans from Horizon League rivals were voting for in that twitter poll. Most Horizon League fans really don't want us to leave the HL.
I'm curious how confident people are that we will get an invite. There is almost no doubt that Valpo would accept a bid to the MVC.
I just don't like getting my hopes up.
You know you wanting an inside straight and waiting on that last card. You know the odds are low but you still hope.....and have a little chance.
Where are we? Nobody knows....only speculation.
QuoteIf the MVC moves to 12 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 75%.
If the MVC goes to 12 and Valpo somehow isn't one of the teams invited, then administrators within the MVC have taken leave of their senses. You can argue the merits of one team vs. another if the expansion is for 10, but aren't three available candidates out there for them that are better for the MVC than VU. There just aren't. Villanova's not walking through that door.
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2017, 01:26:10 PM
According to Verbal Commits, the Valpo average is 2.444, which will likely go up once seniors are off the board and all newcomers are enrolled. The MVC is:
http://www.verbalcommits.com/conferences/missouri-valley (http://www.verbalcommits.com/conferences/missouri-valley)
You can click on average stars to sort.
Without Wichita St it is:
Loyola 2.364
Illinois St 2.306
S. Illinois 2.256
Bradley 2.233
Drake 2.182
Ind St 2.111
Mizz St 2.091
E'Ville 2.051
N. Iowa 2.038
As you can see, Valpo should compete from day 1. I would not expect UNI to remain that low for too long.
UNI's recruiting stars have always been low. It's never been an issue for us. UNI's method is to grab kids before the blow up, thus they never get the "Respect" from 247, verbalcommits, ESPN, Rivals, etc.. that they "deserve".
Seth Tuttle was a first team All American. Committed as like a junior in high school at a small school in Iowa. His AAU coach (Iowa Barnstormers) was pissed because he knew Iowa, Iowa State, Illinois, etc... were about to offer. UNI has a very strong connection with the Iowa Barnstormers who have produced guys like Wes Washpun (TN and then UNI), all 4 Bohannon (2 went to Wisky, 1 to UNI and youngest at Iowa) brothers, Seth Tuttle (UNI), Austin Phyfe (coming into UNI this year), Connor McCaffery (Iowa), Spencer Haldeman (UNI), Luke McDonnell (UNI), Adam McDermott (UNI), Jeremy Morgan (UNI), Klint Carlson (UNI) and more than i can name. It's basically a who's who of UNI, Iowa, Drake, and a few other schools players, so if you're interested http://www.barnstormersbasketball.com/alumni (http://www.barnstormersbasketball.com/alumni).
UNI recruits early and backs off. There has never been a kid with an offer for more than a year to still have his ride at UNI, even if a ride is open. We may be seeing an exception coming to that shortly but yet to happen but we'll see.
UNI has 7 NCAAs in 14 years. A S16, a top 10 rankings, multiple regular season titles, 5 tournament titles, etc.... UNI's system doesn't lend itself to high star recruits. It's an entirely team focused philosophy built on no one really averaging more than 13-15 per game. If a kid isn't willing to play defense harder than offense and isn't willing to take a back seat on offense if need be then he won't play. We watched a kid not play for 2 years, even though he was our best shooter, because he couldn't figure out how to play defense and not shoot every time he touched it. That finally clicked by his rJr year and he was vital in the NCAA runs in 14 and 15. Stars don't matter to Coach Jake and it's works. He's 5th all time in MVC history in conference and total wins. He'll be 4th by the end of this coming year.
I can tell you the recruiting is going way up though. UNI loves Minneapolis. We have a kid that is likely to sign with UNI tomorrow, Tywhon Pickford. Would be a P5 offer kid but missed his JR year with a knee injury and P5s sniffed as a walk on but no offers. He's a high ceiling kid if he gets to it. Look at the kids that UNI has in the JR class. Kyle Green will end up at UNI if he doesn't get an blue blood offer. It helps his dad is a long time UNI assistant. He's a 3-4 star kid but his ranking is kept low because no one is willing to offer him. Minnesota, Iowa, Iowa State, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Stanford, etc... all recruiting him but they all assume he'll end up at UNI so they don't offer. He'll be the first to have an offer more than a year and still end up at UNI if he doesn't get a Kansas type offer. Kid dominates the AAU scene.
We are in pretty hard on Joey Hauser a 4.5* recruit. Shae Mitchell, Blake Brinkmeye, Race Thompson, etc... are all 3* and climbing guys. The star level at UNI is going up, but it's never been important. System fit has always come first.We are finally developing post depth the last year or two after spending 5.5 years recovering from the Doug McDermott fiasco. I won't bore you with that, but UNI got F-ed in the A on that deal and really set our program back a few years. It wasn't until 2015 we started to be mostly recovered and this past year was our first year of "depth" but it wasn't developed depth year.
TL;DR - Don't worry about UNI's star rankings. We've always been called the "slow, white, unathletic farm boys that play slow and just want to rough people up".
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 24, 2017, 01:55:12 PM
This is like throwing darts at a board but:
If the MVC moves to 10 teams, I think Valpo's chances are 40%.
If the MVC moves to 11 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 65%.
If the MVC moves to 12 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 75%.
MVC goes to 10 - looks like <5%. Murray State has the edge there. A public left a public is added.
MVC goes to 11 - 98%
MVC goes to 12 - 99.999999%
I don't work in levels of 0 and 100%, but if 11 or more is the number Valpo is in. If not there will be a massive fan revolt that will make the addition of Loyola look tiny and they'll find UNI and ISUr on the first train out of town
UNIFTW: Northern Iowa is not getting Joey Hauser. He may go to Wisconsin, but if he doesn't he is going to play with his brother at Marquette.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 24, 2017, 02:14:11 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 24, 2017, 01:55:12 PMThis is like throwing darts at a board but: If the MVC moves to 10 teams, I think Valpo's chances are 40%. If the MVC moves to 11 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 65%. If the MVC moves to 12 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 75%.
MVC goes to 10 - looks like <5%. Murray State has the edge there. A public left a public is added. MVC goes to 11 - 98% MVC goes to 12 - 99.999999% I don't work in levels of 0 and 100%, but if 11 or more is the number Valpo is in. If not there will be a massive fan revolt that will make the addition of Loyola look tiny and they'll find UNI and ISUr on the first train out of town
I'm just afraid that MVC stops at 10 with Murray St.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 24, 2017, 02:10:24 PMAccording to Verbal Commits, the Valpo average is 2.444,
I just did the math. With the current roster we are at 2.5 but that includes walk-on Simon. Without him we are 2.54, and that includes Tevonn at a 2!!! :rotfl:
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 24, 2017, 02:09:31 PM
QuoteIf the MVC moves to 12 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 75%.
If the MVC goes to 12 and Valpo somehow isn't one of the teams invited, then administrators within the MVC have taken leave of their senses. You can argue the merits of one team vs. another if the expansion is for 10, but aren't three available candidates out there for them that are better for the MVC than VU. There just aren't. Villanova's not walking through that door.
No, but maybe Belmont is, along with Murray, and UIC/UWM/UMKC for market's sake.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 24, 2017, 11:51:49 AM
What about an East/West split?
UWM
Loyola
Valpo
Indiana St
Evansville
Murray St
Bradley
Illinois St
So Illinois
No Iowa
Drake
Missouri St
As an aside, if we're bringing a second HL school with us, I'd prefer Green Bay, Wright State, or even Oakland to UWM. In no way is this a rumor, just my $0.02.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I like East and West more.
As far as a 12th school I think staying at 11 is okay and waiting how things play out for a few years.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 24, 2017, 11:56:40 AM
I think, barring something changing this week, the MVC rolls 11 for at least a year.
There's no good way to do divisions.
The MVC takes it's public/private split very seriously. If we go to 12 it will have to be a 6/6 public private split. UWM may have smoke now, but I'm not sure I see it.
I won't be shocked to see 11 until SLU finally figures out the Big East isn't happening and the A10 stars to fracture.
I'd really like to add SLU, but I don't see them coming back to the MVC.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 24, 2017, 02:25:42 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 24, 2017, 02:14:11 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 24, 2017, 01:55:12 PMThis is like throwing darts at a board but: If the MVC moves to 10 teams, I think Valpo's chances are 40%. If the MVC moves to 11 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 65%. If the MVC moves to 12 teams, I think Valpo's chances increase to at least 75%.
MVC goes to 10 - looks like <5%. Murray State has the edge there. A public left a public is added. MVC goes to 11 - 98% MVC goes to 12 - 99.999999% I don't work in levels of 0 and 100%, but if 11 or more is the number Valpo is in. If not there will be a massive fan revolt that will make the addition of Loyola look tiny and they'll find UNI and ISUr on the first train out of town
I'm just afraid that MVC stops at 10 with Murray St.
Mick, don't be so gloomie. When Creighton left the MVC, the confrence still had WSU and UNI as a solid foundation and could kinda afford to take a flyer on the Chicago market -- AKA, Loyola. It didn't quite work out as planned, but during the past few years WSU and UNI have held up their part of the deal and Illinois State has risen to the challenge as well. But with WSU gone, the dynamics change significantly. It's uncharted waters for the MVC. No ONE replacement this time can compensate for the loss of WSU and help keep the MVC at the same ranking it has enjoyed. The only solution to make up the significant difference is adding a minimum of 2 and maybe 3 addtions to compensate for the loss of WSU. It might not completely compensate, but it will be far and away much better than if only one school were to be invited.
Just saw this. Happening Hoops (Valpo Student who runs the Hoops Radio show on WVUR) is reporting that the MVC officials "appear to be" (?) visiting Valpo on Wednesday. He's been a little loose with tweets like "appears" and "might be". Not trying to be critical but I haven't heard it from a reporter yet. I know for sure that we do have a Board Meeting this week but I'm just not clear if the MVC is coming to campus.
I'm not sure if this is something he's heard from a source or if he saw this on twitter from UNIFTW's twitter post.
Can anyone confirm this? I haven't seen Paul or Michael report it yet (Valpo Beat Reporters).
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/856324727635419137
https://twitter.com/cdl1018/status/856231443122585600
https://twitter.com/cdl1018/status/856231661536768001
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773476825194500
https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/854773686070640640
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/854793823318417408
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/854793995138080770
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/854794651672489984
Assuming that the MVC is wiling to make a reasonable offer to Valpo to join the MVC (which is pretty likely, unless they decide to go to 10 instead of 11 teams), many here might ask the question "why wouldn't it happen?"
Assume that President MH is in favor of doing this (because it likely goes nowhere if he is not). He builds a case justifying the move to the MVC, which includes a business case and intangible issues supporting the transition. If Valpo's board of directors is doing their job, they will ask some of the following questions:
1. Valparaiso moved to the Horizon League in the 2000s and this move was argued to increase attendance, revenues, attention to the program and university, and those increases were justification for costs associated with moving to the Horizon League. Since the move, two programs have left the Horizon League - one of which was clearly the program bringing the most attention and interest to the Horizon League. Additionally, the conference that Valpo moved from is close to the Horizon League. If Valpo moves to the MVC, how confident are you that the higher profile teams in the MVC, such as Northern Iowa, would not leave given the opportunity? In other words, could Valpo's investment in going to the MVC just leave Valpo in the same place they are in now?
2. If going the the NCAA tournament in basketball (and advancing) is the highest visibility that Valpo can likely attain in any of its athletics programs, isn't the likelihood of going to the NCAA tournament greater in the Horizon League than it is in the MVC? After all, both conference tournaments are not on campus sites, the MVC seems to have stronger teams, and it seems unlikely that the MVC will have many seasons in which it sends more than one team.
3. The move to the MVC requires $XXXX in either new or accelerated capital spending versus the long term strategic plan. You argue that revenues will directly increase (TV revenue, attendance) and indirectly increase (student enrollment due to added enthusiasm), but many of these revenue increases will not be immediate. What projects do you plan to cancel or delay, and how will the cancelled or delayed programs affect revenues - especially student enrollment? For example, the business school is woefully too small with inadequate facilities for its programs. Can the business school attract the expected number of high revenue MBA students if a new building is delayed 5 years? Another example, many dorms are woefully outdated. Does Valpo believe that it can compete for strong high school students when its dorms are substantially poorer than peer schools? Please understand...these are revenues versus costs issues. (I know people don't want to hear the 'facilities' argument, but a responsible board has to ask those types of questions)
4. What major donor(s) will step up to provide major funding for athletic facility improvements?
5. The potential MVC deal requires X, Y and Z for facilities improvements, but says nothing about student recreation services. Are you saying that student recreation services that serve all students are less important than intercollegiate athletics?
6. If we remove games with Butler, attendance has not markedly increased since moving to the Horizon League. There are no programs with the visibility and prestige as high as butler in the MVC - so why do you think that attendance would increase?
7. Why should student-athletes in all of Valpo's other programs incur additional travel time associated with moving to the MVC?
I am in favor of Valpo moving to the MVC - but a board should and will ask these questions and should reject a move if there are not well-developed answers to these questions. The President and the AD need to have answers ready for these questions.
So let's say the Valley folks do visit. It's been 4 years. What's new on campus??
Athletics
1. New Locker rooms for several sports including football and basketball
2. New track
3. New football weight room
4.New Softball Scoreboard
5.New Tennis Locker building
Anything else??
Non-Athletic/Academic
1.Welcome Center
2.Beacon Hall
3.Sorority Housing
4.Chapel Addition
5.Chemistry/Biology Building
What are they looking for?? It is a great looking campus, particularly at this time of year. :welcome:
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 24, 2017, 03:10:04 PM
Assuming that the MVC is wiling to make a reasonable offer to Valpo to join the MVC (which is pretty likely, unless they decide to go to 10 instead of 11 teams), many here might ask the question "why wouldn't it happen?"
Assume that President MH is in favor of doing this (because it likely goes nowhere if he is not). He builds a case justifying the move to the MVC, which includes a business case and intangible issues supporting the transition. If Valpo's board of directors is doing their job, they will ask some of the following questions:
1. Valparaiso moved to the Horizon League in the 2000s and this move was argued to increase attendance, revenues, attention to the program and university, and those increases were justification for costs associated with moving to the Horizon League. Since the move, two programs have left the Horizon League - one of which was clearly the program bringing the most attention and interest to the Horizon League. Additionally, the conference that Valpo moved from is close to the Horizon League. If Valpo moves to the MVC, how confident are you that the higher profile teams in the MVC, such as Northern Iowa, would not leave given the opportunity? In other words, could Valpo's investment in going to the MVC just leave Valpo in the same place they are in now?
2. If going the the NCAA tournament in basketball (and advancing) is the highest visibility that Valpo can likely attain in any of its athletics programs, isn't the likelihood of going to the NCAA tournament greater in the Horizon League than it is in the MVC? After all, both conference tournaments are not on campus sites, the MVC seems to have stronger teams, and it seems unlikely that the MVC will have many seasons in which it sends more than one team.
3. The move to the MVC requires $XXXX in either new or accelerated capital spending versus the long term strategic plan. You argue that revenues will directly increase (TV revenue, attendance) and indirectly increase (student enrollment due to added enthusiasm), but many of these revenue increases will not be immediate. What projects do you plan to cancel or delay, and how will the cancelled or delayed programs affect revenues - especially student enrollment? For example, the business school is woefully too small with inadequate facilities for its programs. Can the business school attract the expected number of high revenue MBA students if a new building is delayed 5 years? Another example, many dorms are woefully outdated. Does Valpo believe that it can compete for strong high school students when its dorms are substantially poorer than peer schools? Please understand...these are revenues versus costs issues. (I know people don't want to hear the 'facilities' argument, but a responsible board has to ask those types of questions)
4. What major donor(s) will step up to provide major funding for athletic facility improvements?
5. The potential MVC deal requires X, Y and Z for facilities improvements, but says nothing about student recreation services. Are you saying that student recreation services that serve all students are less important than intercollegiate athletics?
6. If we remove games with Butler, attendance has not markedly increased since moving to the Horizon League. There are no programs with the visibility and prestige as high as butler in the MVC - so why do you think that attendance would increase?
7. Why should student-athletes in all of Valpo's other programs incur additional travel time associated with moving to the MVC?
I am in favor of Valpo moving to the MVC - but a board should and will ask these questions and should reject a move if there are not well-developed answers to these questions. The President and the AD need to have answers ready for these questions.
;) Jeez, 84, you're a hard a$$. .............But extreamly well articulated. Those are good questions that need to be answered. Many of the answers might border on softer (i.e., speculative projections) rather than hard dollars and cents figures, however. It's tough to pin down to the penny what this is gonna produce.
But here is the overriding, high level response in my mind: When we moved to the HL, the projections
at that time had merit. No one could have anticipated that both Butler and Loyola would bail in such a short time. But what if those defections never occurred? We could be exactly where we said we would be on all fronts -- or maybe not. Life is full of surprises. If Valparaiso University were clairvoiant, the current 30 year plan would be a reality already -- the dorms would be built, the College of Business would be expanded and in new facilities, the nursing program will have already moved to a new building overlooking the chapel, the law school would have anticipated the down-turn of a few years ago and put measures into place that assured its continued growth and success, a new Recreation and Athletic complex would be thriving as we speak.
We do the best we can with the information we have NOW. We cannot base our decision on what might negatively happen 3 years down the road that is out of our control. If Valpo does that, they are doomed to remain stagnant or even regress. It would be similar to the person who refuses to leave his house because somewhere, sometime he might catch a cold from someone he hasn't met yet. We control what we can control and do the best we can to achieve the goals we set. This is a great opportunity that has presented itself to the university. They don't come along often. It would be a waste of our God-given cummunal talents not to accept the challenge.
Quote from: vu72 on April 24, 2017, 04:18:19 PM
So let's say the Valley folks do visit. It's been 4 years. What's new on campus??
Athletics
1. New Locker rooms for several sports including football and basketball
2. New track
3. New football weight room
4.New Softball Scoreboard
5.New Tennis Locker building
Anything else??
Non-Athletic/Academic
1.Welcome Center
2.Beacon Hall
3.Sorority Housing
4.Chapel Addition
5.Chemistry/Biology Building
What are they looking for?? It is a great looking campus, particularly at this time of year. :welcome:
1. Demolition of Porter Hospital occurred in the summer and fall of 2013, after the search committee would have visited. That is a huge change in terms of being able to cast a vision for future facilities planned for that area. By the way you grads would love seeing all the student activity going on there as I'm writing this. There are either 3 or 4 guys softball practices going on simultaneously at various corners with cones placed out, etc. Must be 50 students out there. Loud music included. Spring football practice going on on Brown. Track practice also happening. Runners circling the track. More loud music. A very happening place.
2. Demolition of the biggest eye are around campus - the old 3-D department store at Lincolnway and Roosevelt. Nice student parking area, curbing, lot signs, etc. A MAJOR improvement to the overall appearance of that area.
Also, the Uptown East was still all under construction at that point, yes?
Quote from: vu72 on April 24, 2017, 04:18:19 PM
So let's say the Valley folks do visit. It's been 4 years. What's new on campus??
Athletics
1. New Locker rooms for several sports including football and basketball
2. New track
3. New football weight room
4.New Softball Scoreboard
5.New Tennis Locker building
Anything else??
Non-Athletic/Academic
1.Welcome Center
2.Beacon Hall
3.Sorority Housing
4.Chapel Addition
5.Chemistry/Biology Building
What are they looking for?? It is a great looking campus, particularly at this time of year. :welcome:
Not bad for only 4 years. And it reflects the spectrum of a vibrant forward thinking university. I might add that 4 years ago I do not think the 30 year plan had been issued yet. That might be a good take-away for the evaluators. Also, the basketball practice facility (Hilltop) has received a facelift and AC and a new ARC roof is going in over the summer.
Our talent has improved and is continuing to improve. Our record has remained consistently good over those 4 years. Our new coach has demonstrated skill and grit. I think the only thing that "might" become somewhat of an issue is what are we going to do to upgrade the game day experience and TV image inside the ARC? There's nothing left other than that. I personally wish that MLB and MH address that during the visit by telling the MVC that within the next 6-18 months the 33 year-old seating will be replaced, new modern lighting will be installed and the sound system will be upgraded.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 24, 2017, 05:05:53 PM
Also, the Uptown East was still all under construction at that point, yes?
Nope, that was already done. I was living there at the time.
I forgot about another athletic event: A $2,000,000 contribution to endow men's basketball recruiting. ;D
QuoteNope, that was already done. I was living there at the time.
Ah, good catch. That said, the retail/restaurants have definitely filled in since then. Feels like an actual off-campus "college town" district now.
I bet people who are trying to convince the board to vote for the mvc would add that by joining the mvc we will be paired up with Bradley, drake and Evansville, similar liberal arts schools with nice academic rankings such as ours. Might be a good selling point for stiffs on the board who may night care about basketball.
Worth a listen.
https://twitter.com/Bison1660/status/856637060077293568
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/856878990916816896
Missouri Valley Conference Officials visiting Campus TODAY (Beautiful Day) to tour campus!
Multiple reports that MVC is visiting Valpo is a good sign. I think Murray State has an edge up on us, but I like our position vs Omaha and Milwaukee, unless they are purely looking at this from a market standpoint.
Interesting that UWM and Omaha both seemed to pop up very recently vs the other names that had been floating around for a while.
Any scenario that adds more than one team to the MVC, and doesn't include Murray State and Valparaiso will be a failure. JMO
Skip to (21:07) in the Podcast. Jon Rothstein is hearing that the MVC is still targeting Valpo and Murray State and from what he is hearing that Valpo is the MORE LIKELY of the 2.
https://soundcloud.com/compass-media/college-hoops-today-with-jon-rothstein-vcus-mike-rhoades
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/856884148866342912
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/856842057134067716
I (any MVC fan) doesn't get this facination the MVC gets with certain schools. 4 years ago it was UMKC and UIC. They are very bad programs in markets they don't register even as blip on. This time it appears that UN-O is that team. I don't freaking get it.
I suppose the thought is to reclaim part of the Omaha market that was lost with Creighton. UNO doesn't exist in Omaha. It plays in front of 1,500 people a night in a hockey arena 10 minutes from Creighton playing in front of 18,000. UNO isn't in the sports section until page 4. UNO spends more money on hockey than all other sports combined. I hate everything about UNO.
Make it Valpo. Make it Murray State. If they much force a 12th right now I guess UWM is as good as it gets. Even that doesn't make me happy. I'd much rather wait for a 12th to appear and stand out above the rest.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 10:06:06 AMI (any MVC fan) doesn't get this facination the MVC gets with certain schools. 4 years ago it was UMKC and UIC. They are very bad programs in markets they don't register even as blip on. This time it appears that UN-O is that team. I don't freaking get it. I suppose the thought is to reclaim part of the Omaha market that was lost with Creighton. UNO doesn't exist in Omaha. It plays in front of 1,500 people a night in a hockey arena 10 minutes from Creighton playing in front of 18,000. UNO isn't in the sports section until page 4. UNO spends more money on hockey than all other sports combined. I hate everything about UNO. Make it Valpo. Make it Murray State. If they much force a 12th right now I guess UWM is as good as it gets. Even that doesn't make me happy. I'd much rather wait for a 12th to appear and stand out above the rest.
Agree 100% on Omaha... Not only are they dwarfed by Creighton, but Lincoln is less than an hour away. Not like Omaha is a power market to begin with.
That is reasonable and I agree. You don't get multiple bids by market demographics or the MAAC would be a five bid league.
Lots of good stuff in this article. Give the whole thing a click & a read. Harry Schroeder is one of the better Valley insiders.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/856887850373193728
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/phase-two-in-mvc-expansion/
Phase Two In MVC Expansion
By Harry Schroeder on April 25, 2017
"(St. Louis, MO) – The second phase of the Missouri Valley Conference expansion process is underway. Rumors have been flying on the internet that Valley officials have begun campus visits, and source close to the situation has verified to me that campus visits have begun."
......
"Leading contenders are rumored to be Murray State (see our story on the Racers' chances) and Valparaiso. Other contenders seem to be Nebraska-Omaha, Milwaukee, UMKC and some of the Dakota schools. Belmont a favorite of many fans and commentators, still could be in the mix, but the signals coming out of Nashville don't seem promising."
......
"With the campus visits being conducted, the finalists are being interviewed. The answer could be coming before Mother's Day."
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 10:06:06 AM
I (any MVC fan) doesn't get this facination the MVC gets with certain schools. 4 years ago it was UMKC and UIC. They are very bad programs in markets they don't register even as blip on. This time it appears that UN-O is that team. I don't freaking get it.
I suppose the thought is to reclaim part of the Omaha market that was lost with Creighton. UNO doesn't exist in Omaha. It plays in front of 1,500 people a night in a hockey arena 10 minutes from Creighton playing in front of 18,000. UNO isn't in the sports section until page 4. UNO spends more money on hockey than all other sports combined. I hate everything about UNO.
Make it Valpo. Make it Murray State. If they much force a 12th right now I guess UWM is as good as it gets. Even that doesn't make me happy. I'd much rather wait for a 12th to appear and stand out above the rest.
Last go-around Valpo lost out to Loyola, but was still in the mix. I suspect we were never in the running that time, but the MVC wanted to get as much information and as clear a cultural match reading as possible with a view to the future. I also suspect that the anger expressed on our board at the time was a black-and-white-sides-of-the-issue thing for us posters. I now also think, because of the lack of reaction from MLB and MH, that they were fully briefed on the "real" purpose of the visit and were OK with it. So........ this may be the same situation: i.e., UWM and UNO are more exploratory and info gathering exercises setting the MVC up for the "next" phase of realignment/expansion.
I do concur that the performance sample on UWM is very small and there are many questions yet to be answered during this rather tumultous transition. It could turn out great and teh coming season for them could be supper .....OR.... it could go south fast. Best to wait for stability to set in. But, I am hoping that stability ensues, because I want that drive down to MKE once a season ;D .
RELATED QUESTION: Would MVC members now be more open to scheduling UWM (and I guess UNO) as an OOC ooponent now that they appear to be on the long range radar? It would be a great way to guage compatability without making a long term commitment.
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/856878990916816896
Important follow up tweet:
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/856892627244941314
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/856881683676753920
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/856884572788862976
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 10:06:06 AM
I (any MVC fan) doesn't get this facination the MVC gets with certain schools. 4 years ago it was UMKC and UIC. They are very bad programs in markets they don't register even as blip on. This time it appears that UN-O is that team. I don't freaking get it.
I suppose the thought is to reclaim part of the Omaha market that was lost with Creighton. UNO doesn't exist in Omaha. It plays in front of 1,500 people a night in a hockey arena 10 minutes from Creighton playing in front of 18,000. UNO isn't in the sports section until page 4. UNO spends more money on hockey than all other sports combined. I hate everything about UNO.
Make it Valpo. Make it Murray State. If they much force a 12th right now I guess UWM is as good as it gets. Even that doesn't make me happy. I'd much rather wait for a 12th to appear and stand out above the rest.
I think you're likely to have the same problems with Milwaukee as you do with Omaha (though they don't have Hockey). UWM plays miles off its campus in a building that literally sits in the shadow of the home of Milwaukee's real players: Marquette and the Bucks. Throw in the Badgers and UWM is already sitting 4th in the city's basketball landscape. That's before counting all of the Chicago transplants and fans of convenience who live there as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
One thing we need to address is: What will the MVC offer in terms of monetary compensation to help alleviate burden of the Exit-Fee ($500,000) of the HL and the MVC entry fee?
It's not out of the normal that Conferences will throw schools some $ to help out the costs so the burden is not entirely on the new coming school.
Curious if the MVC will help Valpo out if we get the invite. There are real negotiations that need to be had.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 25, 2017, 10:33:42 AM
RELATED QUESTION: Would MVC members now be more open to scheduling UWM (and I guess UNO) as an OOC ooponent now that they appear to be on the long range radar? It would be a great way to guage compatability without making a long term commitment.
UNO? No. Omaha is no longer MVC market. Maybe Drake would but that's it. UNI is too busy with Xavier, Iowa, Iowa State, North Carolina, Stephan F Austin, St Mary's, George Mason, high level MTEs, etc...
UWM? If they haven't been scheduled before they won't be going forward if they aren't added. It is a zero value game for most MVC schools.
I see people listing schools that UWM falls behind and it being similar to UNO. It's not. UNO plays 10 minutes from Creighton, who averages 18k per game. UNO 1,800. They fall behind - in terms of just basketball programs - Creighton, UNL, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State and potentially Mizzou. Then you add in the KC Royals, the Royals AAAteam in Omaha, Nebraska football, Iowa football, Iowa State football, K-State football, Creighton baseball, UNO Hockey, and a couple others. They are equivalent to Loyola in Chicago, but is a MUCH smaller market.
As far as exit fee? Probably get some help. Might be tied to concessions in facility upgrades. Could be MVC will cover entry fee if facility needs are wanted.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 25, 2017, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 10:06:06 AM
I (any MVC fan) doesn't get this facination the MVC gets with certain schools. 4 years ago it was UMKC and UIC. They are very bad programs in markets they don't register even as blip on. This time it appears that UN-O is that team. I don't freaking get it.
I suppose the thought is to reclaim part of the Omaha market that was lost with Creighton. UNO doesn't exist in Omaha. It plays in front of 1,500 people a night in a hockey arena 10 minutes from Creighton playing in front of 18,000. UNO isn't in the sports section until page 4. UNO spends more money on hockey than all other sports combined. I hate everything about UNO.
Make it Valpo. Make it Murray State. If they much force a 12th right now I guess UWM is as good as it gets. Even that doesn't make me happy. I'd much rather wait for a 12th to appear and stand out above the rest.
I think you're likely to have the same problems with Milwaukee as you do with Omaha (though they don't have Hockey). UWM plays miles off its campus in a building that literally sits in the shadow of the home of Milwaukee's real players: Marquette and the Bucks. Throw in the Badgers and UWM is already sitting 4th in the city's basketball landscape. That's before counting all of the Chicago transplants and fans of convenience who live there as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Do not be so fast to dismiss UWM. The Pather Arena is no further from their campus than the Ford Center is from the E'ville campus and probably easier to get to because of a better mass transit system. I would argue that they do not draw from the same demographic as Marquette and it is not really accurate to compare even Marquette to an NBA franchise. So from a "butts in the seats" perspective, they have (in past good times) shown an ability to fill the Pather Arena /MECCA and they have the local demographics and following to do so again (given better opponents and improved performance).
An incomplete comparison of UWM and Marquette
UWM MU
Undergrads: 22,600 8,300
Origin: 80+% SE WI 71% Out of State
Alumni: 177K 110K
Location 74% in WI (unkown, but probably national)
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 10:06:06 AM
I (any MVC fan) doesn't get this facination the MVC gets with certain schools. 4 years ago it was UMKC and UIC. They are very bad programs in markets they don't register even as blip on. This time it appears that UN-O is that team. I don't freaking get it.
I suppose the thought is to reclaim part of the Omaha market that was lost with Creighton. UNO doesn't exist in Omaha. It plays in front of 1,500 people a night in a hockey arena 10 minutes from Creighton playing in front of 18,000. UNO isn't in the sports section until page 4. UNO spends more money on hockey than all other sports combined. I hate everything about UNO.
Make it Valpo. Make it Murray State. If they much force a 12th right now I guess UWM is as good as it gets. Even that doesn't make me happy. I'd much rather wait for a 12th to appear and stand out above the rest.
My guess is that when the MVC was looking into UMKC, it may have been for the very reason we are having this discussion today: losing Wichita State. With UMKC, the MVC still has a connection to the Kansas City area. Just a guess.
We're in the middle of a $250 Million fundraising campaign. If the MVC makes us pay our way, I think we can manage if it's truly a priority.
Yes, that would be a large failure. I don't mind Milwaukee as the 12th team, but would think that adding Omaha would be a dumb move. They are the black sheep in Omaha to the popular Creighton, and are always targeted for cutbacks, so that the school in Lincoln can remain supreme.
Quote from: valpotx on April 25, 2017, 11:36:16 AMYes, that would be a large failure. I don't mind Milwaukee as the 12th team, but would think that adding Omaha would be a dumb move. They are the black sheep in Omaha to the popular Creighton, and are always targeted for cutbacks, so that the school in Lincoln can remain supreme.
Yeah, the small kid in town in the 43rd largest city does not excite me nor should that be the deciding factor in anyone's book.
Creighton out drew Omaha 10-1 and Marquette out drew Milwaukee 7-1 in the latest data I found (http://i.turner.ncaa.com/sites/default/files/images/2016/06/09/2016_release_mens_basketball_attendance_final.pdf). Neither is a particularly good look and a fair comparison in my book.
The problem with both schools is the same problem that I have with Valpo in the HL. Urban commuter schools don't move the needle in their markets like more traditional schools.
To draw, most schools need 2 things:
1- An actively engaged student body and alumni base.
2- A local media that cares and is willing promote.
I know from personal experience living in Milwaukee and Cleveland that the urban commuter schools that make up the HL have little of both. I'm willing to bet Omaha is in the same boat.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear, does it make any noise?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 25, 2017, 12:12:18 PM
Creighton out drew Omaha 10-1 and Marquette out drew Milwaukee 7-1 in the latest data I found (http://i.turner.ncaa.com/sites/default/files/images/2016/06/09/2016_release_mens_basketball_attendance_final.pdf). Neither is a particularly good look and a fair comparison in my book.
The problem with both schools is the same problem that I have with Valpo in the HL. Urban commuter schools don't move the needle in their markets like more traditional schools.
To draw, most schools need 2 things:
1- An actively engaged student body and alumni base.
2- A local media that cares and is willing promote.
I know from personal experience living in Milwaukee and Cleveland that the urban commuter schools that make up the HL have little of both. I'm willing to bet Omaha is in the same boat.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear, does it make any noise?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
One of Milwaukee's most highly attended home games last year was the game vs Valpo. There was a large group of Valpo fans that turned out for that game.
I seem to remember "Lets GO VALPO!" chants drowning out the Milwaukee fans in their own building.
Valpo beat Milwaukee handily 71-53. It was one of those games where Karys, Levingston-Simon, & Kiser (our walk-ons) got to play in the game.
How long has it been since a ranked team came to visit during the regular season? It's hard to get excited for games when youre one of, if not, the best program in the league. Oakland is about the only team that garners any extra excitement.
Valpo has shown the fans show up if theres an exciting game (rhode island, NIT run ,etc) but the HL just lacks those games. I think the excitement comes back if Valpo were to join the MVC and no longer is "top dog" for a lack of a better term. White out, promotions, etc when a ranked team comes to visit in Jan or feb
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 25, 2017, 12:51:38 PM
How long has it been since a ranked team came to visit during the regular season? It's hard to get excited for games when youre one of, if not, the best program in the league. Oakland is about the only team that garners any extra excitement.
Uh, last year?
It's been nearly 1 season :o :lol:
Ah, should have proof read as I meant conference season.
Getting ranked teams out of conference will always be up to Valpo to make it happen. The problem is, a lot of people are occupied with football season, holidays, end of semester, etc. When the average fan tunes into bball in January and February, theres been a lack of quality opponents to be getting excited about.
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/856920847772262403
Anyone else really entertained by the back and forth with PantherU on MVCfans.com?
http://mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4692
I actually love it when someone is passionate about their program, but he's coming off like the guy desperately trying to escape the friendzone.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 25, 2017, 12:44:29 PM
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 25, 2017, 12:12:18 PM
Creighton out drew Omaha 10-1 and Marquette out drew Milwaukee 7-1 in the latest data I found (http://i.turner.ncaa.com/sites/default/files/images/2016/06/09/2016_release_mens_basketball_attendance_final.pdf). Neither is a particularly good look and a fair comparison in my book.
The problem with both schools is the same problem that I have with Valpo in the HL. Urban commuter schools don't move the needle in their markets like more traditional schools.
To draw, most schools need 2 things:
1- An actively engaged student body and alumni base.
2- A local media that cares and is willing promote.
I know from personal experience living in Milwaukee and Cleveland that the urban commuter schools that make up the HL have little of both. I'm willing to bet Omaha is in the same boat.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear, does it make any noise?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
One of Milwaukee's most highly attended home games last year was the game vs Valpo. There was a large group of Valpo fans that turned out for that game.
I seem to remember "Lets GO VALPO!" chants drowning out the Milwaukee fans in their own building.
Valpo beat Milwaukee handily 71-53. It was one of those games where Karys, Levingston-Simon, & Kiser (our walk-ons) got to play in the game.
And 3 times Valpo players missed the front end of a two shot free throw with the outcome of a second missed free throw being that the UWM crowd would have gotten free Chick-Fil-A. The Valpo players all hit their second free throws sending the Panther student section down in disgust with the Valpo crowd emphasizing the missed opportunity by signaling "No chicken." That has to be the happiest I have ever been at not getting free food. ;) ;)
The ARC is in its Sunday best and looking good. Bleachers out (upper and lower), scorer's table and team seating set up, scoreboard lit up with lighted "welcome" signs on all 4 sides, 30-second basket clocks and "end zone" scoreboards lit up, and, of course, the seemingly endless display of NCAA and NIT Tournament banners and conference championship banners that MVC teams could only dream of. As I quietly stood there a simple message softly echoed from the rafters, "You are standing on holy ground." It was a spiritual experience.
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 01:50:58 PM
The ARC is in its Sunday best and looking good. Bleachers out (upper and lower), scorer's table and team seating set up, scoreboard lit up with lighted "welcome" signs on all 4 sides, 30-second basket clocks and "end zone" scoreboards lit up, and, of course, the seemingly endless display of NCAA and NIT Tournament banners and conference championship banners that MVC teams could only dream of. From end to end and everywhere inbetween, a simple message quietly calls down from the rafters, "You are now standing on holy ground." It is a spiritual experience.
Since we are in the HL, do we still display the Mid-Con banners?
If we move to MVC, do we only keep NCAA and NIT banners?
Heck no! They better keep those banners up, until we get to the point where we make the NCAA tourney on a consistent basis again.
Quote from: covufan on April 25, 2017, 01:53:49 PM
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 01:50:58 PM
The ARC is in its Sunday best and looking good. Bleachers out (upper and lower), scorer's table and team seating set up, scoreboard lit up with lighted "welcome" signs on all 4 sides, 30-second basket clocks and "end zone" scoreboards lit up, and, of course, the seemingly endless display of NCAA and NIT Tournament banners and conference championship banners that MVC teams could only dream of. From end to end and everywhere inbetween, a simple message quietly calls down from the rafters, "You are now standing on holy ground." It is a spiritual experience.
Since we are in the HL, do we still display the Mid-Con banners?
If we move to MVC, do we only keep NCAA and NIT banners?
I tell about a moving experience I just had, and you start talking process? Where is your decency, man! ;)
Mark is pretty plugged into the MVC.
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/856920847772262403
https://twitter.com/RacerJoeD/status/856936442290896897
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/856947199502159873
https://twitter.com/RacerJoeD/status/856947440188108800
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/856948126300635136
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 01:50:58 PM
The ARC is in its Sunday best and looking good. Bleachers out (upper and lower), scorer's table and team seating set up, scoreboard lit up with lighted "welcome" signs on all 4 sides, 30-second basket clocks and "end zone" scoreboards lit up, and, of course, the seemingly endless display of NCAA and NIT Tournament banners and conference championship banners that MVC teams could only dream of. As I quietly stood there a simple message softly echoed from the rafters, "You are standing on holy ground." It was a spiritual experience.
The MVC still has 3 schools with a S16 in the last 10 seasons.
That was beautifully written and all that and that might impress Evansville, Drake, Missouri State or Loyola but....
Contrary to popular national belief the MVC was more than Creighton and WSU. Keep in kind Creighton has never been out of the first weekend.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 25, 2017, 01:19:56 PM
Anyone else really entertained by the back and forth with PantherU on MVCfans.com?
http://mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4692
I actually love it when someone is passionate about their program, but he's coming off like the guy desperately trying to escape the friendzone.
They are very insistent, but look around and see all of the Dakota school fans coming in and being completely rude because a lot of MVC school fans don't want them in the MVC.
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 02:39:55 PM
That was beautifully written and all that and that might impress Evansville, Drake, Missouri State or Loyola but....
Those sound like fighting words! We should settle this on the court...twice a year...every year. ;)
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 01:50:58 PM
The ARC is in its Sunday best and looking good. Bleachers out (upper and lower), scorer's table and team seating set up, scoreboard lit up with lighted "welcome" signs on all 4 sides, 30-second basket clocks and "end zone" scoreboards lit up, and, of course, the seemingly endless display of NCAA and NIT Tournament banners and conference championship banners that MVC teams could only dream of. As I quietly stood there a simple message softly echoed from the rafters, "You are standing on holy ground." It was a spiritual experience.
The MVC still has 3 schools with a S16 in the last 10 seasons.
That was beautifully written and all that and that might impress Evansville, Drake, Missouri State or Loyola but....
Contrary to popular national belief the MVC was more than Creighton and WSU. Keep in kind Creighton has never been out of the first weekend.
Without looking it up, I'm going to guess that those same 3 schools also have 1 S16 in the last 20 years - the same as Valpo. ;)
Now back to those NCAA, NIT and conference championship banners at the ARC that have grown steadily over the past 20 years (the ultimate benchmark for winning tradition, meaning we were good 20 years ago, 15 years ago, etc., all the way to last years 30 wins and this year's 24). Would you care to compare your numbers to those? Save the research. For time sake I'll shortcut to your answer. "Well, we'd have that many championships and NCAA/NIT appearances if we played in the Horizon and Summit." Yep.
Quote from: ml2 on April 25, 2017, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 02:39:55 PM
That was beautifully written and all that and that might impress Evansville, Drake, Missouri State or Loyola but....
Those sound like fighting words! We should settle this on the court...twice a year...every year. ;)
I agree. We haven't had any good-natured trash talking since Butler left the HL (on a 4-game losing streak to Valpo, I might add). ;)
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 03:29:37 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 01:50:58 PM
The ARC is in its Sunday best and looking good. Bleachers out (upper and lower), scorer's table and team seating set up, scoreboard lit up with lighted "welcome" signs on all 4 sides, 30-second basket clocks and "end zone" scoreboards lit up, and, of course, the seemingly endless display of NCAA and NIT Tournament banners and conference championship banners that MVC teams could only dream of. As I quietly stood there a simple message softly echoed from the rafters, "You are standing on holy ground." It was a spiritual experience.
The MVC still has 3 schools with a S16 in the last 10 seasons.
That was beautifully written and all that and that might impress Evansville, Drake, Missouri State or Loyola but....
Contrary to popular national belief the MVC was more than Creighton and WSU. Keep in kind Creighton has never been out of the first weekend.
Without looking it up, I'm going to guess that those same 3 schools also have 1 S16 in the last 20 years - the same as Valpo. ;)
Now back to those NCAA, NIT and conference championship banners at the ARC that have grown steadily over the past 20 years (the ultimate benchmark for winning tradition, meaning we were good 20 years ago, 15 years ago, etc., all the way to last years 30 wins and this year's 24). Would you care to compare your numbers to those? Save the research. For time sake I'll shortcut to your answer. "Well, we'd have that many championships and NCAA/NIT appearances if we played in the Horizon and Summit." Yep.
You'd be wrong. ;)
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 25, 2017, 11:26:46 AM
We're in the middle of a $250 Million fundraising campaign. If the MVC makes us pay our way, I think we can manage if it's truly a priority.
Hard to say if the fundraising campaign will make it easier or harder to raise any extra money for an MVC move. The campaign is for endowment, and you're not going to pay for a one-time athletic expense on the order of $1M out of endowment.
I imagine that they'll look for targeted gifts, same as Oakland seems to have done when they joined the Horizon. And some of their candidates may have made significant gifts already in the current campaign.
Hopefully they can find some folks with a special place in their hearts for athletics, and an understanding of one-time expenses.
I'm not an insider, but I think I'm going to up my prediction from 65% to 90% Valpo to the MVC if the MVC moves to 11. Just a feeling.
Big IF they go to 11.
I am going to be highly pessimistic on all of this.
I think the MVC stays at 10 and although the MVC really wishes they could go back in time and take Valpo instead of Loyola, they can't. Wichita State was a public school, so they are going to add a public school. Murray State will go in ahead of us despite our 3-0 record over them recently. Main argument cited will be Murray State's attendance figures. At that point I will be even more furious with the way the HL has scheduled away our home crowds. No saturday games, students on break for rivalry games, Friday night games when all the local high schools are playing (Holy ground in Indiana), and the list goes on. It is almost as if the HL is trying to keep attendance down so that nobody is attractive to other conferences.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 25, 2017, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 03:29:37 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 01:50:58 PM
The ARC is in its Sunday best and looking good. Bleachers out (upper and lower), scorer's table and team seating set up, scoreboard lit up with lighted "welcome" signs on all 4 sides, 30-second basket clocks and "end zone" scoreboards lit up, and, of course, the seemingly endless display of NCAA and NIT Tournament banners and conference championship banners that MVC teams could only dream of. As I quietly stood there a simple message softly echoed from the rafters, "You are standing on holy ground." It was a spiritual experience.
The MVC still has 3 schools with a S16 in the last 10 seasons.
That was beautifully written and all that and that might impress Evansville, Drake, Missouri State or Loyola but....
Contrary to popular national belief the MVC was more than Creighton and WSU. Keep in kind Creighton has never been out of the first weekend.
Without looking it up, I'm going to guess that those same 3 schools also have 1 S16 in the last 20 years - the same as Valpo. ;)
Now back to those NCAA, NIT and conference championship banners at the ARC that have grown steadily over the past 20 years (the ultimate benchmark for winning tradition, meaning we were good 20 years ago, 15 years ago, etc., all the way to last years 30 wins and this year's 24). Would you care to compare your numbers to those? Save the research. For time sake I'll shortcut to your answer. "Well, we'd have that many championships and NCAA/NIT appearances if we played in the Horizon and Summit." Yep.
You'd be wrong. ;)
Technically in the last ten NCAA tournaments, only Northern Iowa is left that has made the S16 from the MVC. I do believe that S. Illinois made two S16's in the early 2000's, but clearly by the current state of the program those days are a bit in the past.
I have a feeling theyll go to at least 11. You cant straight up replace Creighton with Loyola and WSU with Murray State. Will it be Valpo or someone else?
Drove through campus on my way home tonight....looked nice. Still was sunny and in the 70s with a lot of students being active outside.
Jimmy brings up a great point about Omaha. Maybe the MVC is just doing its due-diligence in scouting potential future members with Omaha.
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/857035468013281280
I see UWM as a better candidate than UNO. No way for UMKC.
If the MVC really wants to elevate the profile of their conference, they'll add Murray State, Valpo and Milwaukee and move the conference tournament to the United Center in Chicago. 7 of the 12 schools are closer to Chicago than St. Louis. The average distance for all 12 is less. Chicago is the 3rd largest media market in the U.S. - St. Louis is 17th. Chicago is a destination city. St. Louis is not. It would be a boon to recruiting across the entire league. What mid major player wouldn't want to play on national TV in the house that Michael built?
The MVC said they wanted Loyola so they could leverage the Chicago market. So leverage it.
I think having the MVC tournament at DePauls new facility would be great too. Better yet, it would be ideal for the Horizon league.
BTW, there are cool things to do in St. Louis.
Does Chicago (any sizeable venue inside I-294) host any other conference championships? If not, WH you might be onto something. Can't call it Arch Madness anymore though. That is a cool name. Chicago college basketball has been scrambling for an identity for decades now. An MVC Tournament could bring back that luster -- at least for one weekend a year.
Arch Madness attendances last year:
Day 1 - 5,057
Day 2 - 9,124
Day 3 - 12,124
Title game - 11,744
Arch Madness isn't moving anywhere else. And it shouldn't. It's what every non-Power Five league tournament, including Motor City Madness, is trying to be.
Just speculating without figures in front of me, but I'll bet that MCM attendance (actual butts in the seats attendance) was the the exact opposite.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 25, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
I think having the MVC tournament at DePauls new facility would be great too. Better yet, it would be ideal for the Horizon league.
BTW, there are cool things to do in St. Louis.
You aren't prying Arch Madness away without killing every single person in the Valley office, those affiliated with the tournament and most bar/restaurant owners in St Louis
That's not a joke
The head of the St Louis Sports Commission, main party involved in brining events in, is named Frank Vivierto.
His wife is Party Vivierto.
Go look at the MVC admin page and look who is second in charge in the conference.
Quote from: vusupporter on April 25, 2017, 10:50:30 PM
Arch Madness attendances last year:
Day 1 - 5,057
Day 2 - 9,124
Day 3 - 12,124
Title game - 11,744
Arch Madness isn't moving anywhere else. And it shouldn't. It's what every non-Power Five league tournament, including Motor City Madness, is trying to be.
Just wondering if you think those numbers hold up without Wichita State??? Could be some disappointed hotel owners next year.
I will say this- if Murray St get in, and someday makes the finals, you can expect 6000 Racers, maybe more. That's without attracting more bandwagon fans.
Quote from: vusupporter on April 25, 2017, 10:50:30 PM
Arch Madness attendances last year:
Day 1 - 5,057
Day 2 - 9,124
Day 3 - 12,124
Title game - 11,744
Arch Madness isn't moving anywhere else. And it shouldn't. It's what every non-Power Five league tournament, including Motor City Madness, is trying to be.
No disrespect to the MVC at all, but the gold standard for non-Power 5 (and Big East) conferences and conference tournaments is the A-10. They are consistently a multi-bid league (as the MVC once was) at a time when mid-major at-large bids are in decline. Attendance last year at the Barclay Center was 52,000. This year they made a bold move to the PPG Paints Arena in Pittsburgh and had more than 50,000. Without a first round upset of Dayton, who has the best traveling fan base in the A-10, attendance would have been > 60,000. Tournament revenues exceeded $1.2 million. They were doing well in NYC and easily could have rested on their laurels there, but that's not what progressive organizations do.
That's all I'm thinking about - how can the MVC take a major conference shake-up and turn it into something positive for the entire league. Again, I'm not trying to diminish the MVC's reputation or its many accomplishments. But the goal shouldn't be to run a good tournament with a cool name. The goal is to get as many Tournament bids as possible. Chicago is one of the biggest recruiting hotbeds in the country, yet not one conference has a major presence there. This could be a huge opportunity for the MVC. Arch Madness is a very nice capstone event for a 1-bid league.
MVChicago - who knows?
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 11:17:33 PMHis wife is Party Vivierto.
I'd like to party with Party!!!
Lord knows, that is a party girl.
(http://cdn.streamlinetechnologies.com/mvc/0F852544-8143-4A53-A06B-0544D832CCD0/3135L.jpg)
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 11:17:33 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 25, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
I think having the MVC tournament at DePauls new facility would be great too. Better yet, it would be ideal for the Horizon league.
BTW, there are cool things to do in St. Louis.
You aren't prying Arch Madness away without killing every single person in the Valley office, those affiliated with the tournament and most bar/restaurant owners in St Louis
That's not a joke
The head of the St Louis Sports Commission, main party involved in brining events in, is named Frank Vivierto.
His wife is Party Vivierto.
Go look at the MVC admin page and look who is second in charge in the conference.
Again with this fascination in Chicago, the city doesn't want us and will not want us.
It's fanciful to think otherwise. The suburbanites and city people that I live with up here have too many other things going on to care about some basketball tournament. At best you are looking at getting some of the potential recruits to come and watch games, but they aren't paying the bill that Chicago is going to invoice us for.
Too expensive
Pipe dream
Guys, were not even in the conference yet and we're moving the tourney?
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on April 26, 2017, 06:24:45 AM
Guys, were not even in the conference yet and we're moving the tourney?
We're fans on a message board. In our theoretical world we can bring up anything we want since we can't act on it or have any influence over it. Now, if we find out that President Heckler suggested the same thing to the search committee yesterday and they gave each other sideways glances, we may have a little problem. LOL
While we are suddenly talking about moving a tournament we aren't even in yet.... why not move it to The courts of NWI. 😂😂😂 "Bring your team to compete at Northwest Indiana's Elite Sports Complex. Our state-of-the-art, 60,000 square-foot, air-conditioned complex houses four high-school regulation sized hardwood basketball courts. Your teams have the opportunity to face the best in officiated game action, the change to be a champion."
Quote from: jloose128 on April 25, 2017, 06:53:25 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 25, 2017, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 03:29:37 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on April 25, 2017, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: wh on April 25, 2017, 01:50:58 PM
The ARC is in its Sunday best and looking good. Bleachers out (upper and lower), scorer's table and team seating set up, scoreboard lit up with lighted "welcome" signs on all 4 sides, 30-second basket clocks and "end zone" scoreboards lit up, and, of course, the seemingly endless display of NCAA and NIT Tournament banners and conference championship banners that MVC teams could only dream of. As I quietly stood there a simple message softly echoed from the rafters, "You are standing on holy ground." It was a spiritual experience.
The MVC still has 3 schools with a S16 in the last 10 seasons.
That was beautifully written and all that and that might impress Evansville, Drake, Missouri State or Loyola but....
Contrary to popular national belief the MVC was more than Creighton and WSU. Keep in kind Creighton has never been out of the first weekend.
Without looking it up, I'm going to guess that those same 3 schools also have 1 S16 in the last 20 years - the same as Valpo. ;)
Now back to those NCAA, NIT and conference championship banners at the ARC that have grown steadily over the past 20 years (the ultimate benchmark for winning tradition, meaning we were good 20 years ago, 15 years ago, etc., all the way to last years 30 wins and this year's 24). Would you care to compare your numbers to those? Save the research. For time sake I'll shortcut to your answer. "Well, we'd have that many championships and NCAA/NIT appearances if we played in the Horizon and Summit." Yep.
You'd be wrong. ;)
Technically in the last ten NCAA tournaments, only Northern Iowa is left that has made the S16 from the MVC. I do believe that S. Illinois made two S16's in the early 2000's, but clearly by the current state of the program those days are a bit in the past.
wh was talking about 20 years.
Quote from: vusupporter on April 25, 2017, 10:50:30 PM
Arch Madness attendances last year:
Day 1 - 5,057
Day 2 - 9,124
Day 3 - 12,124
Title game - 11,744
Arch Madness isn't moving anywhere else. And it shouldn't. It's what every non-Power Five league tournament, including Motor City Madness, is trying to be.
I don't want it to move anyway and I'm sure that most don't either.
Mark Adams facebook post about Murray State: https://www.facebook.com/enthusiadams
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/857192026223378432
Murray State Racers Serious Contender to Replace Shockers
(Valpo, Omaha and Milwaukeee also among new member candidates)
By Mark Adams
A source close to the negotiations between the Missouri Valley Conference and potential new members has confirmed that MVC officials are visiting multiple campuses this week, The Murray State Racers from the OVC are the probable top choice to replace Wichita State who left the MVC for the American Athletic Conference earlier this month.
Other site visits have been confirmed for this week as MVC officials will visit Valparaiso University and University of Nebraska-Omaha later this week in addition to the site visit at Murray State which has already occurred on Monday in Murray, KY.
If the MVC decides to expand beyond 10 members (including Murray State) both Valpo out of the Horizon League and Omaha out of the Summit League appear to be the leading candidates to join The Valley. Milwaukee is also being considered and their campus will also be visited this week.
The source indicated that the conference and the potential new members are discussing a relationship that would begin in the 2017-18 season for all sports.
The MVC has a regularly scheduled basketball coaches spring meeting on May 3, 2017. A final decision is expected before mid-May.
Why would Murray State be more attractive than Valpo?
• They are at the very edge of the MVC's footprint. Travel time and expense for every sport for the other 9 schools would be considerably higher than traveling to Valpo.
• Their basketball program has not performed well since they changed coaches 2 years ago. Will they return to their glory years? Who knows. We have a much better story.
• The Loyola "we want to break into the Chicago market" thing certainly doesn't apply to Murray, KY.
So what's the tie breaker? Is "facilities" and "commitment to Athletics" raising its ugly head again?
•
Maybe just be patient and see how it plays out over the next few weeks?
No way do I see Omaha as an invitee. @Enthusiadams needs to reverify his sources. His FB post seems to be going against mainstream thought and may just be a way to get a rise out of people and increase his visits. Information gathering visit? Sure, why not. Pre-bid visit? Uh, no. That would run counter to decades of careful practices by the second oldest and one of the most successful conferences in the country. Omaha brings nothing now and cannot bring very much in the future (points well developed on both our board and MVCFANS). The MVC is too experienced at this to extend a bid just to fill a slot, a slot that does not need to be filled in the first place.
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
Why would Murray State be more attractive than Valpo?
• They are at the very edge of the MVC's footprint. Travel time and expense for every sport for the other 9 schools would be considerably higher than traveling to Valpo.
• Their basketball program has not performed well since they changed coaches 2 years ago. Will they return to their glory years? Who knows. We have a much better story.
• The Loyola "we want to break into the Chicago market" thing certainly doesn't apply to Murray, KY.
So what's the tie breaker? Is "facilities" and "commitment to Athletics" raising its ugly head again?
Quote from: M on April 26, 2017, 09:08:40 AM
Maybe just be patient and see how it plays out over the next few weeks?
And we need to consider the source -- a blooger with an opinion. It serves no good purpose to get our knickers in a bunch over what some "pundit" speculates. It also does us no good to denegrate MuSU's qualifications at this point in the process (though it was IMO done tactfully). We already know MuSU received the first visit and we got the second one. That does not mean that is the selection order, or maybe it is, but that is out of our control. The main thing is we are in the thick of it and do not have any foggy idea of what criteria and notions are being used to perform the evaluation. M is quite right -- after all the previous conjecture, now is the time for patience.
Final "Duh" Thoughts:
If it is 10 -- The announcement will be "we have extended an invitation to ___X_____ and we want to thank all the others for their cooperation and effort." If it is MuSU they were obviously the first choice. Same if it is Valpo. End of story. If we don't get the bid, we are faced with making nice with our brothers in the HL.
If it is 11 -- The announcement will be that two schools (Valpo/MuSu or MuSU/Valpo) have been extended invitations but with NO indication of who is the top choice. So it really doesn't matter who was "first."
If it is 12 -- 3 schools announced in one single announcement with no first, second or third places announced. BUT #3 is gonna be pretty much a surprise.
Shrinking Missouri Valley Conference to evaluate Nebraska-Omaha during visit
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/shrinking-missouri-valley-conference-to-evaluate-nebraska-omaha-during-visit/
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2017, 09:16:24 AM
Shrinking Missouri Valley Conference to evaluate Nebraska-Omaha during visit
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/shrinking-missouri-valley-conference-to-evaluate-nebraska-omaha-during-visit/
What I just said below.
Plus, there were quite a few wasted words in that article that came down to just: "Oh, BTW, the MVC is also doing an inspection of UNO while they are at it."
Why Murray over Valpo? Possibly to replace a public school with a public school. Then again, if they are trying to balance private v. public then Valpo would be the choice. If they were going to take two then I very much doubt they would add two publics for the balance reason. Who knows? ???
I trust Rothstein a little more than Adams. Rothstein indicates that Valpo is the probable first choice.
The rumor mill on this is driving me to drink and really to just want to shutdown and not do anything until this is all resolved.
What I can say is that Omaha is a very real possibility. Everything I'm hearing indicates Valpo, Murray and Omaha (in no particular order) are the three top choices. Milwaukee is also in the mix. Then again, these are just rumors and confirming concrete facts on any of this is next to impossible. I wouldn't be shocked if Omaha is added. Not shocked at all.
I think I speak for everyone, but UNONONO.
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2017, 09:02:49 AMWhy would Murray State be more attractive than Valpo? • They are at the very edge of the MVC's footprint. Travel time and expense for every sport for the other 9 schools would be considerably higher than traveling to Valpo. • Their basketball program has not performed well since they changed coaches 2 years ago. Will they return to their glory years? Who knows. We have a much better story. • The Loyola "we want to break into the Chicago market" thing certainly doesn't apply to Murray, KY. So what's the tie breaker? Is "facilities" and "commitment to Athletics" raising its ugly head again? •
Valpo also has more sports sponsored by the conference.
Quote from: Pgmado on April 26, 2017, 10:19:52 AMI wouldn't be shocked if Omaha is added. Not shocked at all.
ya know what? Omaha is on the banks of the MISSOURI RIVER. therefore, they are in the MISSOURI VALLEY region.
so too, is Kansas City...
Murray is on Clarks River which flows into the Ohio River just south of where the Missouri flows into Mississippi River.
sorry,
Valpo is on "Salt Creek" that flows into Lake Michigan.
Since we are talking rumors, I am hearing that many in the MVC would not be satisfied with only one team being added to replace Wichita State since no single team mentioned would be as strong, and that would appear to be a let down. There is some support for adding two teams, which also would satisfy those who want to keep a true round-robin conference schedule (though it would mean 20 games in conference). If two are added, they would be Murray State and Valparaiso. Finally, there is thinking that a three-team addition with divisions would create excitement, though some would not like the scheduling. If three teams are added, the third team would be either Omaha or Milwaukee, and surprisingly Omaha seems to be gaining momentum. Anyway, these are just rumors heard from people who usually are somewhat in the know, but who admit to not being directly involved or having no specific personal knowledge this time, so I'm not sure this clarifies much. Nevertheless, the speculation is fun, especially when Valpo is in the mix.
Which one has been more stressful and antagonizing?
Bryce Drew rumors of leaving last year
Valpo rumors on joining the MVC
I find this more stressful. We knew Bryce was leaving at some point.
MVC rumors are more stressful, as that is the pinnacle of our long-term home, barring any Midwestern private school conference that forms, a la the Big East.
This is way more stressful. Bryce was going to keep getting mentioned for Power 5 jobs and everyone knew it was a matter of time before he got an offer too good to refuse. This will feel like a gigantic missed opportunity to elevate the program long-term if it doesn't come to pass.
In the 60 pages of this thread, I'm sure I can find it, but someone know what percentage of mvc presidents have to vote pro Valpo in order to get an invitation?
I'm sure we would get Drake, Bradley and Evansville vote.....But thats only 3 of 9
I believe 7 of 9. I can't find the post either.
Quote from: talksalot on April 26, 2017, 10:33:39 AMQuote from: Pgmado on April 26, 2017, 10:19:52 AMI wouldn't be shocked if Omaha is added. Not shocked at all.
ya know what? Omaha is on the banks of the MISSOURI RIVER. therefore, they are in the MISSOURI VALLEY region. so too, is Kansas City... Murray is on Clarks River which flows into the Ohio River just south of where the Missouri flows into Mississippi River. sorry, Valpo is on "Salt Creek" that flows into Lake Michigan.
Technicality I believe that the campus is just south of the St Lawrence continental divide that runs through Valparaiso. North side of town go to the Atlantic, South side goes to the Mississippi. So VU is part of MVC. Sorry I just couldn't let this go. LOL
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 26, 2017, 12:42:46 PM
I believe 7 of 9. I can't find the post either.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
(http://trekcore.com/gallery/albums/sevenofnine/ttds_114.jpg)
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 26, 2017, 12:35:29 PM
In the 60 pages of this thread, I'm sure I can find it, but someone know what percentage of mvc presidents have to vote pro Valpo in order to get an invitation?
I'm sure we would get Drake, Bradley and Evansville vote.....But thats only 3 of 9
3.3.1.3 Be elected by a three-fourths (3/4) vote of the Presidents Council of the Conference at any regular or special meeting called to consider such action.
.75 x 9 = 6.75 = 7
http://www.mvc.org/manual/constitution.pdf
UWM considering move to Missouri Valley Conference
"It's unclear at this point how a potential move would shake out. One possible scenario would be the Missouri Valley adding one school for the 2017-'18 academic year and then two more for 2018-'19. If that were the case, it's likely UWM would be part of that second round of expansion in 2018-'19 should it get the nod."
http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2017/04/26/uwm-considering-move-missouri-valley-conference/100937130/
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2017, 05:25:50 PM
UWM considering move to Missouri Valley Conference
"It's unclear at this point how a potential move would shake out. One possible scenario would be the Missouri Valley adding one school for the 2017-'18 academic year and then two more for 2018-'19. If that were the case, it's likely UWM would be part of that second round of expansion in 2018-'19 should it get the nod."
http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2017/04/26/uwm-considering-move-missouri-valley-conference/100937130/
If UWM gets the invite and not VU it's for reasons outside of the basketball product I would think.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 26, 2017, 05:32:10 PM
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2017, 05:25:50 PM
UWM considering move to Missouri Valley Conference
"It's unclear at this point how a potential move would shake out. One possible scenario would be the Missouri Valley adding one school for the 2017-'18 academic year and then two more for 2018-'19. If that were the case, it's likely UWM would be part of that second round of expansion in 2018-'19 should it get the nod."
http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2017/04/26/uwm-considering-move-missouri-valley-conference/100937130/
If UWM gets the invite and not VU it's for reasons outside of the basketball product I would think.
"UWM considering move to Missouri Valley Conference"
Lol, that headline.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 26, 2017, 05:32:10 PM
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2017, 05:25:50 PM
UWM considering move to Missouri Valley Conference
"It's unclear at this point how a potential move would shake out. One possible scenario would be the Missouri Valley adding one school for the 2017-'18 academic year and then two more for 2018-'19. If that were the case, it's likely UWM would be part of that second round of expansion in 2018-'19 should it get the nod."
http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2017/04/26/uwm-considering-move-missouri-valley-conference/100937130/ (http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2017/04/26/uwm-considering-move-missouri-valley-conference/100937130/)
If UWM gets the invite and not VU it's for reasons outside of the basketball product I would think.
I can't see UWM getting invited over Valpo. Possibly, I could see Valpo and Murray State getting invites this year, so the Missouri Vally has an 11-team normal round-robin schedule. Then the MVC would consider adding a team next year (either Omaha or Milwaukee) and switching to divisions. The switch to 12 teams and divisions might be too much for this year and require more adjustments/negotiations, plus the MVC would have an advantage of being in the news again next year with the 12th addition.
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2017, 05:25:50 PM
UWM considering move to Missouri Valley Conference
"It's unclear at this point how a potential move would shake out. One possible scenario would be the Missouri Valley adding one school for the 2017-'18 academic year and then two more for 2018-'19. If that were the case, it's likely UWM would be part of that second round of expansion in 2018-'19 should it get the nod."
http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2017/04/26/uwm-considering-move-missouri-valley-conference/100937130/
Nice find and post WH. The headline is misleading at best. No invites have gone out so it is impossible for UWM (or Valpo for that matter) to be in a "considering" mode .............yet.
Actually the article content is pretty good, however. They bring up a couple of points that we have skipped over in our discussion, like.... they'd be the biggest school in the MVC if accepted. (My opinion) The men's swimming program (along with Valpo's) could enable the MVC to pull some of their members out of the MAC and conduct MS&D conference championships closer to home. What was not stated but strongly implied as I read between the lines was that if they received and accepted a bid VULB#62 could drive to a UWM-Valpo game at the Panther Arena annually ;D and Valpo could have it's annual alumni thing in MKE :cheers:
Surprise:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/857304153328103424
SIU's Bell helping Valley pick new school
TODD HEFFERMAN The Southern 4 hrs ago
http://thesouthern.com/sports/sources-siu-s-bell-helping-valley-pick-new-school/article_70adabd7-8599-5a9d-b01c-88a50f135f60.html
Some food for thought:
Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below.
Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.
That's a good point commish. But I think the following out weighs that.
Mvc. HL
Arch madness > motor city madness
Private schools > commuter schools
In state rivals > nope
Leadership > nope
Quote from: Commissioner on April 27, 2017, 07:06:00 AM
Some food for thought:
Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below.
Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.
Yes the MVC was 12th in a very down year. The only 2 really competitive teams last year were WSU and IL St (really good teams).
I'm willing to bet UNI, Bradley, SIU, & E-Ville rebound with in the next few years. Its almost for a fact Loyola will be better next year (very good recruiting classes the last 2 yrs), and I have faith MO St, IN St, and Drake can be solid one day (specifically MO St). Would also be nice being in a Conference with In-State rivals again. The HL can not provide In-State rivals and adding schools like IPFW or IUPUI would make us just want to leave even quicker. I think adding schools like Murray St (not leaving for the HL) and Belmont would be great for the HL (sounds like they are not leaving the OVC).
I am willing to bet our future on those schools compared to the current HL's schools. Those schools are more committed and have a better track record, not to mention they are just a better fit for Valpo's culture. Valpo fans have grown tired of non-competitive the HL schools coming into the ARC. The OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! The HL also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.
If the Horizon League tossed out YSU and Cleveland State out of the Conference then they'd get Valpo Fans attention (specifically YSU). YSU's administration has made it crystal clear that Football is their priority which is not in alignment of the Horizon League. I feel really bad for Cleveland State because of the transfer epidemic over there but their latest hire is head scratching and doesn't give me confidence that they will be able to get back to where they were as a program and at the very least it will take a while.
The Horizon League is no doubt on the up-swing but they are also a few coaching poaching away falling back again. I feel MUCH more confident hitching our wagon onto the MVC over the HL. The HL is not the same caliber of League when we initially joined and nor is the MVC the same league that it was even 4 years ago but the prospects are still better over there compared to the HL.
I really appreciate the Horizon League providing an opportunity for Valpo to grow but I believe it is time for us to leave and find a better fit.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 09:34:40 AMThe OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.
And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!! Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!! Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.
I'm just starting to read some other HL message boards about realignment talk and Valpo/MKE potentially wanting to leave the MVC.
If you want a good laugh then you should take 20 min and read through them. There is a lot of hidden envy & jealousy out there from some of our HL competitors fans...
They bring up how Valpo isn't in a major market a lot and they also love to pose the question, "why would Valpo want to leave the Horizon League when its their best chance to be in the 'big dance'?" They are not (or don't want to) looking at the bigger picture. And some get really annoyed that our fan base has a high opinion of ourselves... Yeah we may get a tad cocky sometimes but we've back it up for a while and we have high expectations for our program and a lot of our fan are sick of a few other Horizon League teams not stepping up.
Be careful.....
Worse case scenario we are stuck in HL and have to play these guys in a rebuilding year....
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 27, 2017, 10:58:52 AM
Be careful.....
Worse case scenario we are stuck in HL and have to play these guys in a rebuilding year....
I'm not sold we are headed to MVC personally. If MVC only goes 10 then I think Murray State gets the invite (public replacing public). If they add two teams then I think the 11th is Private and (taking out my bias) there is no better option then Valpo (especially private school (assuming Belmont doesn't change its mind)). The MVC takes Public to Private ratio pretty seriously. If the MVC only goes 10 then my gut says we will remain in the HL unfortunately and we'd be hoping they'd expand to 11 or 12 within the next 2 yrs. I am cautiously optimistic that the MVC will at least be expanding to 11 and Valpo will be one of those two teams.
I also wouldn't classify next years Valpo squad as a "rebuild" but more of a "reloading" year. Next years roster will still have quite a bit of raw talent on it but it there are will probably be growing pains because so many new faces will be getting big minutes. We have a glaring hole with no experienced PF which we are hoping Parker Hazen and Mileek McMillan (both freshmanO will be able to just hold their own next season (can't expect much from fresham, imo). We also need the young bigs to take that next step next season. I still think we could give all teams in the Horizon League a run for their $. We should be aiming for a Top-3 seed. But I think its very reasonable to expect a Top-4 seed in our "reloading" year next year and once you get in the Conf Tourney you never know what can happen.
Everyone seems to love making projections on a move based on the MVC without WSU, but want to compare them to an HL with Valpo from this past year. Gotta remove VU from the HL's equation to get a true apples-to-apples projection. If you're going to use a single backward-looking metric (2017 rankings), you can't remove the highest-ranking example from the data set from one league and compare it to another league where you haven't altered that data set and use that as a forward-looking projection. I sure as hell hope no one is making decisions of this magnitude based on patchwork analytics like that.
(In general, those sorts of "take out the highest-ranked team" projections are misleading because they assume every other team remains static. If you're going to assume the MVC replaces WSU with no one for the purposes of dinging their rating, then you also have to remove two losses from every other MVC team, which would likely shift things around a bit).
Also, the NCAA committee reportedly doesn't even look at conference rankings when considering a team. But in any scenario, the MVC is going to be ranked higher. Why wouldn't you want to move to a higher-ranked league?
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 10:55:54 AM
I'm just starting to read some other HL message boards about realignment talk and Valpo/MKE potentially wanting to leave the MVC.
If you want a good laugh then you should take 20 min and read through them. There is a lot of hidden envy & jealousy out there from some of our HL competitors fans...
They bring up how Valpo isn't in a major market a lot and they also love to pose the question, "why would Valpo want to leave the Horizon League when its their best chance to be in the 'big dance'?" They are not (or don't want to) looking at the bigger picture. And some get really annoyed that our fan base has a high opinion of ourselves... Yeah we may get a tad cocky sometimes but we've back it up for a while and we have high expectations for our program and a lot of our fan are sick of a few other Horizon League teams not stepping up.
I want this move to the MVC badly, not only for the increased competition and better private/public school balance, but also a little bit because I want the teams that prevented us from making the move to the HL in the mid-90's to eat it :).
Quote from: vu72 on April 27, 2017, 10:31:24 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 09:34:40 AMThe OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.
And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!! Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!! Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.
Wasn't that Alec's record breaking game? If so, little skewed.
QuoteI want this move to the MVC badly, not only for the increased competition and better private/public school balance, but also a little bit because I want the teams that prevented us from making the move to the HL in the mid-90's to eat it :).
I'm glad I'm not the only one who hasn't forgotten about that. (For those that don't remember, Cleveland State, UIC, Green Bay and Wright State all happily threw us under the bus when it was convenient and the old Mid-Con looked to be imploding back in 1994.)
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 27, 2017, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 27, 2017, 10:31:24 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 09:34:40 AMThe OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.
And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!! Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!! Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.
Wasn't that Alec's record breaking game? If so, little skewed.
I believe the record breaking game was against UIC. That was on a Sunday 2pm game on January 22.
Valpo crushed UIC 96-65. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=400918557
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSflhFHafA4
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 09:34:40 AMQuote from: Commissioner on April 27, 2017, 07:06:00 AMSome food for thought: Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below. Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.
Yes the MVC was 12th in a very down year. The only 2 really competitive teams last year were WSU and IL St (really good teams). I'm willing to bet UNI, Bradley, SIU, & E-Ville rebound with in the next few years. Its almost for a fact Loyola will be better next year (very good recruiting classes the last 2 yrs), and I have faith MO St, IN St, and Drake can be solid one day (specifically MO St). Would also be nice being in a Conference with In-State rivals again. The HL can not provide In-State rivals and adding schools like IPFW or IUPUI would make us just want to leave even quicker. I think adding schools like Murray St (not leaving for the HL) and Belmont would be great for the HL (sounds like they are not leaving the OVC). I am willing to bet our future on those schools compared to the current HL's schools. Those schools are more committed and have a better track record, not to mention they are just a better fit for Valpo's culture. Valpo fans have grown tired of non-competitive the HL schools coming into the ARC. The OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! The HL also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling. If the Horizon League tossed out YSU and Cleveland State out of the Conference then they'd get Valpo Fans attention (specifically YSU). YSU's administration has made it crystal clear that Football is their priority which is not in alignment of the Horizon League. I feel really bad for Cleveland State because of the transfer epidemic over there but their latest hire is head scratching and doesn't give me confidence that they will be able to get back to where they were as a program and at the very least it will take a while. The Horizon League is no doubt on the up-swing but they are also a few coaching poaching away falling back again. I feel MUCH more confident hitching our wagon onto the MVC over the HL. The HL is not the same caliber of League when we initially joined and nor is the MVC the same league that it was even 4 years ago but the prospects are still better over there compared to the HL. I really appreciate the Horizon League providing an opportunity for Valpo to grow but I believe it is time for us to leave and find a better fit.
I agree with this and Oklahoma Mick's points. You should probably take the invite if it comes. I'd want my Titans to do it. What I'm just pointing out is that it's really not an uncontestable decision, and wouldn't be a catastrophe to be passed over. And there are lots of factors we--or at least I--don't know:
- What is the Horizon's exit fee? Over how many years can it be paid? Will the MVC help with it?
- What arrangements will there be for NCAA money? Will Valpo just start collecting the shares from past years that would otherwise have been part of the conference's distribution to Wichita? Or something else?
- What are the comparative travel costs, keeping in mind "non-revenue" sports, too?
- What conditions might the MVC put on for better facilities, etc.? Can Valpo afford those? Do they mix with the University's plans?
Most of all, what does one predict for the future of these conferences? The MVC is probably better, but there is the threat of it splintering over teams wanting to play BCS football.
I do think this is wrong:
QuoteEveryone seems to love making projections on a move based on the MVC without WSU, but want to compare them to an HL with Valpo from this past year. Gotta remove VU from the HL's equation to get a true apples-to-apples projection. If you're going to use a single backward-looking metric (2017 rankings), you can't remove the highest-ranking example from the data set from one league and compare it to another league where you haven't altered that data set and use that as a forward-looking projection. I sure as hell hope no one is making decisions of this magnitude based on patchwork analytics like that.
Yes, if Valpo goes to the MVC, the MVC would still have had a higher RPI than the HL, but not by a lot (and depending on what other teams join). But if Murray State and/or Milwaukee go, and Valpo stays in the Horizon, based on last year's data the HL would be better. And that's exactly the point I was making. Take Wichita out of the MVC, leave Valpo in the Horizon, and the leagues look equivalent. Move the weak sister Milwaukee from the Horizon to the MVC, the Horizon looks better--at least last year. The point is, in a sense, that Valpo controls which conference would have the higher RPI. So Valpo wouldn't moving to the conference with the higher RPI, it would be creating the higher RPI. Which pretty much takes the conference RPI stuff out of the equation--though you would, of course, want to look at more data and, most importantly, predictions going forward.
Anyway, if you go, we'll miss you, a lonely private in sea of publics...
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 27, 2017, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 27, 2017, 10:31:24 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 09:34:40 AMThe OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.
And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!! Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!! Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.
Wasn't that Alec's record breaking game? If so, little skewed.
I believe the record breaking game was against UIC. That was on a Sunday 2pm game on January 22.
Valpo crushed UIC 96-65. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=400918557
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSflhFHafA4
It was Hall of Fame night with Lubos.
Quote from: Commissioner on April 27, 2017, 07:06:00 AM
Some food for thought:
Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below.
Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.
The problem with your analysis of the MVC's conference RPI without Wichita State is that it also needs to include Valpo. I am not sure how the math works out, but I doubt it would drop to 15th.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 27, 2017, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: Commissioner on April 27, 2017, 07:06:00 AM
Some food for thought:
Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below.
Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.
The problem with your analysis of the MVC's conference RPI without Wichita State is that it also needs to include Valpo. I am not sure how the math works out, but I doubt it would drop to 15th.
I'm also think thinking the Horizon Leagues RPI ranking would be hurt by losing Valpo.
MVC > HL
Quote from: wh on April 27, 2017, 05:59:21 AM
SIU's Bell helping Valley pick new school
TODD HEFFERMAN The Southern 4 hrs ago
http://thesouthern.com/sports/sources-siu-s-bell-helping-valley-pick-new-school/article_70adabd7-8599-5a9d-b01c-88a50f135f60.html
While I have no idea what the weighting is on the search committee from the MVC that will evaluate the schools, it is probable any SIU people will push hard for Murray State. While they are geographically close to each other, there are also a lot of PhD graduates from SIU teaching at Murray State (Murray has every few PhD programs). My guess is that there are a lot of relationships across the two schools.
Exactly. Also, you're taking out the strongest team retroactively while still dinging the remaining teams for fewer wins/more losses to a team that isn't there. It's not an accurate picture. Also, it's a one-year sample. Need to look at least 5-year trends and build in probabilities vs. an MVC schedule compared to HL schedule (with all of the variables included) to get anything resembling a projection model with an ounce of confidence in its forecasting ability.
In short, you can't project the MVC minus WSU by simply removing the Shockers from 2017's conference RPI because Wichita was still in the conference and everyone played them, for good and for ill.
Quote- What is the Horizon's exit fee? Over how many years can it be paid? Will the MVC help with it?
I believe the HL exit fee is $500,000 (unfortunately much higher then when Butler left $50k-$100k). Not an insignificant chunk of change but it is common for the new Conference to help pay the exit fee. The OVC's Exit Fee is a brutal at $1million and you have to give up shares if not informed within 2 yrs.
There is also more $ in the MVC then there is in the HL. Better TV deal and will likely sell more tickets playing more like minded schools and competitive teams. Also we would have 2 new In-State rivals.
QuoteWhat arrangements will there be for NCAA money? Will Valpo just start collecting the shares from past years that would otherwise have been part of the conference's distribution to Wichita? Or something else?
Most likely scenario is that the new team(s) in the MVC would leave right away to be apart of the 2017-2018 season. I believe Valpo is still entitled to it shares from this previous season (I don't know all the details on that). I don't know why Valpo would be collecting any shares from the 2016-2017 MVC season.
Quote
What are the comparative travel costs, keeping in mind "non-revenue" sports, too?
The MVC has a pretty standard travel partner arrangement like the HL does. The Travel really wouldn't be outrageous at all. Especially considering the rumors that LeCrone was looking to possibly add Omaha/Denver (pricy Travel $ for non-rev sports). There was also the rumor that LeCrone looked into New Mexico State last year (not sure how serious it was but still shocking he actually gave them a second thought).
Currently the HL travel is fairly inexpensive. Travel cost may see a slight rise in the MVC but you'd have to way the increase revenue to offset costs.
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855803876527792128
QuoteWhat conditions might the MVC put on for better facilities, etc.? Can Valpo afford those? Do they mix with the University's plans?
There was early speculation that the MVC may ask for Arena upgrades but that doesn't seem like they would likely ask for that from what I've heard. If MVC did ask for arena upgrades then maybe that would be a sticking point but doesn't sound like it would be a deal breaker. Can Valpo Afford renovations? Likely yes, but the University would very likely not tap into the endowment for non-educational facilities. If there are renovations they'd have to come from a donor.
I'm happy that our fellow Horizon League fans have begun to care about our well-being lol.
If Valpo gets offered, we will more then likely be moving to the MVC and leaving the HL.
I guess I like the idea of being in a conference with more academically oriented teams like Drake, Bradley, Evansville and Northern Iowa. In the Horizon, other than Detroit and UIC, you have to go pretty deep to find any ranking whatsoever. On the National University radar, there are 310 schools ranked. YSU, WSU, Milwaukee, Oakland and CSU didn't make the top 310. NKU and Green Bay did make the Regional rankings coming in at 82 and 86 respectively.
In the Valley, other than the above mentioned schools, SIU and Illinois State are ranked nationally at 214 and 152 and Missouri State comes in at #71 in the Midwest Regionals.
I know some of you don't put much stock in these rankings but, here's the disadvantage a school like Valpo has. Don't judge me here, I am not throwing rocks at any athletes in particular but, could some of the kids playing at some of the Horizon schools even make it into Valpo let alone graduate?? The state schools have in-state tuition that is a third of Valpo's.
In the Valley, basketball success aside, we are playing on a much more level playing field. This is why I am attracted to the A-10 as well and why Butler is such a good fit in the Big East.
I was always curious how Valpo got left out of that Mid-Con group that got into the MCC in the mid-90s? I know it was after we left, but I never heard the logic of that, especially considering Valpo was the only school that actually fit the original MCC profile of being all private.
Good to see a Detroit poster. Good memories of the MCC days, except for the '88 MCC Semi-Final when Archie Tullus single-handedly knocked out what was Jim Crews' best Aces team to date. That loss knocked them off of the bubble and into the NIT, keeping Marty Simmons from ever playing in a NCAA game. Now that I think about it, there may be a pattern emerging here with that.
As I'm sure we will automatically get the private school votes. I wonder if Indiana state will vote for us?
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on April 27, 2017, 01:41:46 PMExactly. Also, you're taking out the strongest team retroactively while still dinging the remaining teams for fewer wins/more losses to a team that isn't there. It's not an accurate picture. Also, it's a one-year sample. Need to look at least 5-year trends and build in probabilities vs. an MVC schedule compared to HL schedule (with all of the variables included) to get anything resembling a projection model with an ounce of confidence in its forecasting ability. In short, you can't project the MVC minus WSU by simply removing the Shockers from 2017's conference RPI because Wichita was still in the conference and everyone played them, for good and for ill.
You guys are missing the point. Yes, if want to compare the MVC going forward with Valpo to the Horizon going forward without Valpo, then you'd certainly have to account for Valpo, wouldn't you? But what if Valpo decided not to move? Then the comparison would be the MVC without Valpo or Wichita to the Horizon with Valpo. And in that case, the leagues would be very close. If Milwaukee were to move to the MVC, the Horizon would rank higher.
In other words, the goal is not to compare the MVC with Valpo replacing Wichita to the Horizon having lost Valpo. It's to compare the MVC without Valpo replacing Wichita to the Horizon keeping Valpo--which is where we would be going forward if Valpo doesn't move. And the bottom line that results is that--once Wichita is out of the picture, which it is--which conference has a better conference RPI depends almost entirely on which conference Valpo chooses to play in. For Valpo, then, there is very little difference. If Valpo goes to the MVC, the MVC will be better in conference RPI (based on last year's numbers). If Valpo stays in the Horizon, the two will be almost identical. If Valpo turns the Valley down and Milwaukee then gets and takes the invite, the Horizon will be better.
As to the fact that all the numbers would change because schedules would change, I acknowledged exactly that. But in point of fact, that would actually help the Horizon in the comparison, because we would subtract from the MVC its team with the best non-conference record, which is the main driver of conference RPI (since, by definition, conference teams play .500 ball against one another).
Again, this is just one factor in the calculation--others have mentioned many reasons to prefer the Valley. And as acknowledged, this is based just on one year, and you certainly want to consider longer term potential. But just in terms of conference RPI, at least based on the strengths of the teams last year, Valpo doesn't much benefit from joining the Valley. Wherever Valpo hangs it hat (based on last year, of course) will have the advantage.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 27, 2017, 01:06:31 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 27, 2017, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 27, 2017, 10:31:24 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 09:34:40 AMThe OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.
And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!! Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!! Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.
Wasn't that Alec's record breaking game? If so, little skewed.
I believe the record breaking game was against UIC. That was on a Sunday 2pm game on January 22.
Valpo crushed UIC 96-65.
It was Hall of Fame night with Lubos.
I don't know if that moved the attendance needle much more than it being the first time Alec wore #23 (OK, maybe a little).
Quote from: agibson on April 27, 2017, 02:19:17 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 27, 2017, 01:06:31 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 27, 2017, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 27, 2017, 10:31:24 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on April 27, 2017, 09:34:40 AMThe OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.
And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!! Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!! Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.
Wasn't that Alec's record breaking game? If so, little skewed.
I believe the record breaking game was against UIC. That was on a Sunday 2pm game on January 22.
Valpo crushed UIC 96-65.
It was Hall of Fame night with Lubos.
I don't know if that moved the attendance needle much more than it being the first time Alec wore #23 (OK, maybe a little).
I think what REALLY helped attendance was that it was the
ONLY Saturday Conference Home games of the year. That was pretty darn good attendance for not a great opponent.
It would be really nice if we could get more Saturday home games!
Indiana State's Saturday Conference Games:Saturday Home:-JAN 7 (SAT) against Illinois State
-JAN 28 (SAT) against Loyola
-FEB 11 (SAT) against Drake
Saturday Away:-DEC 31 (SAT) Missouri State
-JAN 21 (SAT) Wichita State
-FEB 4 (SAT) UNI
-FEB 25 (SAT) E-Ville
Might be (would be*) nice for attendance if we'd leave for the MVC
it's 110 miles from SIU Carbondale to Murray KY;
it's 111 miles from SIU Carbondale to Evansville
QuoteI was always curious how Valpo got left out of that Mid-Con group that got into the MCC in the mid-90s? I know it was after we left, but I never heard the logic of that, especially considering Valpo was the only school that actually fit the original MCC profile of being all private.
To be fair, we had *one* winning season to our name in Division I at the time. That said, the rumor at the time was that Butler and Loyola did not want us to join, and VU was subsequently left in the dark on the negotiations. (When negotiations started, the entire Mid-Con was discussing merging with the remaining 4-5 Midwest Collegiate teams, or at least that was the word on the street).
It's a good read. Part 1.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/857653389467029504
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/a-deeper-look-valparaiso-part-one/
A Deeper Look @ Valparaiso (Part One)
By valleyhoops on April 26, 2017
Special to ValleyHoopsInsider
By: Paul Oren – Northwest Indiana Times
(Valparaiso, IN) – Greetings from the Vale of Paradise! I'm Paul Oren and I've covered Valparaiso University athletics dating back to when I was a student journalist in the late 20th century. Ok, it was only 1999, but I've been around long enough and seen plenty of Valparaiso basketball over the last 18 years.
............
FWIW KenPom has the MVC 10th in conference rankings for next year WITHOUT Wichita
Before adding Valpo and Murray State. ;D
hahaha
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/857304153328103424
https://twitter.com/mickdogg3/status/857331674992005123
https://twitter.com/ValpoAD/status/857699813474918403
I did some number crunching:
All these averages are over 5 years - they only include the teams listed, regardless of conference switches (aka NKU's ASUN years are tabbed in, and Loyola's RPI hit is factored in MVC, and not Horizon's)
Horizon avg (includes valpo)
188.9
MVC avg (includes wsu)
155.5
Horz no Valpo
200.5
MVC no WSU
170.4
Horz no Valpo, add Fort Wayne
197.1
MVC no WSU, add Valpo
161.8
MVC no WSU, add Murray, add Valpo
159.2
MVC no WSU, add Murray, add Valpo
159.2
MVC no WSU, add Murray, Valpo, and UWM
164.05
Horizon, no UWM, no Valpo, add IPFW
194.8
Any other combination?
Our latest podcast.
I say that Murray State and Valpo are the tier 1 candidates. Everyone else is tier two. What do you think?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HffFMGzOg1g&feature=youtu.be
QuoteI did some number crunching:[/size]All these averages are over 5 years - they only include the teams listed, regardless of conference switches (aka NKU's ASUN years are tabbed in, and Loyola's RPI hit is factored in MVC, and not Horizon's)Horizon avg (includes valpo)188.9MVC avg (includes wsu)155.5Horz no Valpo200.5MVC no WSU170.4Horz no Valpo, add Fort Wayne197.1MVC no WSU, add Valpo161.8MVC no WSU, add Murray, add Valpo159.2MVC no WSU, add Murray, add Valpo159.2MVC no WSU, add Murray, Valpo, and UWM164.05Horizon, no UWM, no Valpo, add IPFW194.8Any other combination?
Horizon, keep Valpo, no UWM
Teams, they are a-changin
Austin Shone Sports
April 28, 2017
http://www.bradleyscout.com/sports/teams-they-are-a-changin/
Winner – Valparaiso
Valparaiso's winning history and past tournament success makes them the best fit for the MVC. Their geographical location is optimal, and they could renew in state rivalries against Evansville and Indiana State. They've shown the ability to recruit high caliber players, and would bring valuable revenue and another solid fan base to the MVC.
Quote from: talksalot on April 27, 2017, 02:58:44 PM
it's 110 miles from SIU Carbondale to Murray KY;
it's 111 miles from SIU Carbondale to Evansville
It's 110 miles from Evansville to Terre Haute.
It's 65 miles from LUC to Valparaiso.
Looks like we have the eastern travel partners set if the MVC wants to go that way. If the MVC moves to 12 and splits divisions with divisional scheduling, Valpo potentially could be in a more geographical compact travel situation in the MVC than it is now in the HL.
Quote from: Commissioner on April 27, 2017, 10:55:28 PM
QuoteI did some number crunching:[/size]All these averages are over 5 years - they only include the teams listed, regardless of conference switches (aka NKU's ASUN years are tabbed in, and Loyola's RPI hit is factored in MVC, and not Horizon's)Horizon avg (includes valpo)188.9MVC avg (includes wsu)155.5Horz no Valpo200.5MVC no WSU170.4Horz no Valpo, add Fort Wayne197.1MVC no WSU, add Valpo161.8MVC no WSU, add Murray, add Valpo159.2MVC no WSU, add Murray, add Valpo159.2MVC no WSU, add Murray, Valpo, and UWM164.05Horizon, no UWM, no Valpo, add IPFW194.8Any other combination?
Horizon, keep Valpo, no UWM
185.7
This is a must read. Its an article that has most of the MVC beat reporters giving their thoughts on what is the right move for the MVC.
https://twitter.com/PaulSuellentrop/status/857946485392121857
http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/shockwaves/article147338654.html
MVC round table: What number, format works for Valley basketball?
BY PAUL SUELLENTROP
psuellentrop@wichitaeagle.com
APRIL 28, 2017
The Missouri Valley Conference is evaluating possible members. Visits to Murray State, Valpo, Nebraska-Omaha and Milwaukee, according to Dave Reynolds of the Peoria Journal Star, are in the book or scheduled.
The MVC can consider many options for membership and our panel of Valley reporters and columnists discuss which school(s) fit, which number works and scheduling.
There's also a history lesson from Journal Star columnist Kirk Wessler (one that probably deserves its own post; grab a cup of coffee and settle in) that explains how the MVC reached this point.
.........
I don't know about anyone else, but I was having a really hard time reading this before. ;D
Quote from: a3uge on April 28, 2017, 07:48:35 AM
Quote from: Commissioner on April 27, 2017, 10:55:28 PM
QuoteI did some number crunching:All these averages are over 5 years - they only include the teams listed, regardless of conference switches (aka NKU's ASUN years are tabbed in, and Loyola's RPI hit is factored in MVC, and not Horizon's)Horizon avg (includes valpo)188.9MVC avg (includes wsu)155.5Horz no Valpo200.5MVC no WSU170.4Horz no Valpo, add Fort Wayne197.1MVC no WSU, add Valpo161.8MVC no WSU, add Murray, add Valpo159.2MVC no WSU, add Murray, add Valpo159.2MVC no WSU, add Murray, Valpo, and UWM164.05Horizon, no UWM, no Valpo, add IPFW194.8Any other combination?
Horizon, keep Valpo, no UWM
185.7
I found this assessment from the "Shock Waves" article to provide an interesting approach to a 12 team, 18 game schedule.
Jesse Kramer, thecatchandshoot.com
Losing Wichita State is of course a huge blow for the MVC's profile, but the opportunity for expansion gives the conference a chance to improve its ability to manipulate RPI for postseason selection and league reputation. But that's only if they go to 12 teams, ideally adding Murray State, Valpo and Milwaukee, and stick with an 18-game league schedule rather than moving to a 20-game slate.
With 18 games rather than 20, the MVC can try to manipulate its conference schedule based on preseason expectations to have the best teams play each twice while playing the worst teams only once. This is a strategy the 11-team MAAC will start using in the 2017-18 season largely as a response to Monmouth getting snubbed from the NCAA Tournament.
Here's an idea of how it could work in practice. (Of course the RPI numbers I'm about to use would change a bit based on Wichita State no longer being in the Valley, but let's roll with it.) Say this year's Illinois State team (No. 39 RPI) got to play Valpo (No. 78 RPI) twice and got rid of a game against Drake (No. 316 RPI). Maybe that schedule alteration gets them into the RPI Top 30 with two more "top 100 wins," and that could have been enough to get the Redbirds into the First Four instead of the NIT.
Preseason projections can be flawed so deciding who should have a home-and-home could backfire now and then, but generally they are pretty accurate.
And to be clear, the MVC should not have waited until Wichita State left to think about expanding to 12 teams. If they had tried earlier to strengthen the league and manipulate RPI to help postseason prospects for top teams, there's at least a chance that the Shockers would still be around.
He doesn't advocate two geographic divisions as most people are promoting with a 12 team conference. His approach is very pragmatic. Manipulate the schedule to optimize teams RPI, regardless of location, so that there is a better chance for the MVC to return to multi-bid status. He states that the MAAC is going in that direction.
Part 2
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/857963539767676929
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/is-valpo-a-good-fit-part-two/
Is Valpo A Good Fit? (Part Two)
By Paul Oren on April 28, 2017
I would like to see what our average rpi has been for the last 20 years in comparison to the existing 9 teams over their 20 year history. Would be interested in Murray states 20 year average as well. Anybody have free time to make that happen?
I read that article. I have a feeling using the 20 year scale we would fit in rather well.
Sounds like the MVC visited UWM yesterday. They've visited all 4 of the most heavily rumored schools: Murray State, Valpo, Omaha and UWM. Jimmy is the first person I've heard report that the MVC was at UWM yesterday.
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/857973442611642368
Just a reminder that the Valparaiso University Board of Directors are scheduled to be on campus today and tomorrow for meetings.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on April 28, 2017, 09:52:58 AM
I would like to see what our average rpi has been for the last 20 years in comparison to the existing 9 teams over their 20 year history. Would be interested in Murray states 20 year average as well. Anybody have free time to make that happen?
I read that article. I have a feeling using the 20 year scale we would fit in rather well.
I'm not going to go through it, but this website will have the information
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncb/rpi/
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 28, 2017, 09:47:46 AM
I found this assessment from the "Shock Waves" article to provide an interesting approach to a 12 team, 18 game schedule.
Jesse Kramer, thecatchandshoot.com
Losing Wichita State is of course a huge blow for the MVC's profile, but the opportunity for expansion gives the conference a chance to improve its ability to manipulate RPI for postseason selection and league reputation. But that's only if they go to 12 teams, ideally adding Murray State, Valpo and Milwaukee, and stick with an 18-game league schedule rather than moving to a 20-game slate.
With 18 games rather than 20, the MVC can try to manipulate its conference schedule based on preseason expectations to have the best teams play each twice while playing the worst teams only once. This is a strategy the 11-team MAAC will start using in the 2017-18 season largely as a response to Monmouth getting snubbed from the NCAA Tournament.
Here's an idea of how it could work in practice. (Of course the RPI numbers I'm about to use would change a bit based on Wichita State no longer being in the Valley, but let's roll with it.) Say this year's Illinois State team (No. 39 RPI) got to play Valpo (No. 78 RPI) twice and got rid of a game against Drake (No. 316 RPI). Maybe that schedule alteration gets them into the RPI Top 30 with two more "top 100 wins," and that could have been enough to get the Redbirds into the First Four instead of the NIT.
Preseason projections can be flawed so deciding who should have a home-and-home could backfire now and then, but generally they are pretty accurate.
And to be clear, the MVC should not have waited until Wichita State left to think about expanding to 12 teams. If they had tried earlier to strengthen the league and manipulate RPI to help postseason prospects for top teams, there's at least a chance that the Shockers would still be around.
He doesn't advocate two geographic divisions as most people are promoting with a 12 team conference. His approach is very pragmatic. Manipulate the schedule to optimize teams RPI, regardless of location, so that there is a better chance for the MVC to return to multi-bid status. He states that the MAAC is going in that direction.
Intriguing idea, but then with an 18 game schedule it would be impossible to schedule home and homes with each conference member each year, and potentially for several years with another conference team, no?
I don't know enough about the ramifications of doing so but from an off the cuff personal opinion, if the MVC moves to 12 and Valpo is asked to join, I would prefer a divisional format. It just appears a little cleaner. Maybe perhaps create an interchangeable pseudo hybrid zipper alignment that is predicated on geography in part and RPI in part (or perceived program strength) with a protected rivalry component sprinkled in, akin to what the ACC did for football when it put Miami in one division and Florida State in the other even though they are in the same state.
Although, to be fair this might be a jumbled hot garbage mess too. Maybe 11 is the magic number for now with each team getting a H/H with each other. All we can do is speculate and hope for an invite at least.
So if my math is right our average RPI since 97-98 is 117.58. If you throw out the high (08-09) at 261 and the low year before last) of 31, your average is 114.23.
During the 19 years we have had an RPI of 100 or better 10 times and over 150 6 times.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 28, 2017, 11:40:00 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 28, 2017, 09:47:46 AM
I found this assessment from the "Shock Waves" article to provide an interesting approach to a 12 team, 18 game schedule.
Jesse Kramer, thecatchandshoot.com
Losing Wichita State is of course a huge blow for the MVC's profile, but the opportunity for expansion gives the conference a chance to improve its ability to manipulate RPI for postseason selection and league reputation. But that's only if they go to 12 teams, ideally adding Murray State, Valpo and Milwaukee, and stick with an 18-game league schedule rather than moving to a 20-game slate.
With 18 games rather than 20, the MVC can try to manipulate its conference schedule based on preseason expectations to have the best teams play each twice while playing the worst teams only once. This is a strategy the 11-team MAAC will start using in the 2017-18 season largely as a response to Monmouth getting snubbed from the NCAA Tournament.
Here's an idea of how it could work in practice. (Of course the RPI numbers I'm about to use would change a bit based on Wichita State no longer being in the Valley, but let's roll with it.) Say this year's Illinois State team (No. 39 RPI) got to play Valpo (No. 78 RPI) twice and got rid of a game against Drake (No. 316 RPI). Maybe that schedule alteration gets them into the RPI Top 30 with two more "top 100 wins," and that could have been enough to get the Redbirds into the First Four instead of the NIT.
Preseason projections can be flawed so deciding who should have a home-and-home could backfire now and then, but generally they are pretty accurate.
And to be clear, the MVC should not have waited until Wichita State left to think about expanding to 12 teams. If they had tried earlier to strengthen the league and manipulate RPI to help postseason prospects for top teams, there's at least a chance that the Shockers would still be around.
He doesn't advocate two geographic divisions as most people are promoting with a 12 team conference. His approach is very pragmatic. Manipulate the schedule to optimize teams RPI, regardless of location, so that there is a better chance for the MVC to return to multi-bid status. He states that the MAAC is going in that direction.
Intriguing idea, but then with an 18 game schedule it would be impossible to schedule home and homes with each conference member each year, and potentially for several years with another conference team, no?
I don't know enough about the ramifications of doing so but from an off the cuff personal opinion, if the MVC moves to 12 and Valpo is asked to join, I would prefer a divisional format. It just appears a little cleaner. Maybe perhaps create an interchangeable pseudo hybrid zipper alignment that is predicated on geography in part and RPI in part (or perceived program strength) with a protected rivalry component sprinkled in, akin to what the ACC did for football when it put Miami in one division and Florida State in the other even though they are in the same state.
Although, to be fair this might be a jumbled hot garbage mess too. Maybe 11 is the magic number for now with each team getting a H/H with each other. All we can do is speculate and hope for an invite at least.
I'm thinking that was his point -- Don't have an inflexible double round robin. Instead set the schedule to optimize the top half of the conference. This leaves room for 2 extra OOC games for teams. At the very least, rivalry games would occur at least once a season if there was a lopsided RPI differential and the games would alternate location annually. For similar RPI opponents those games would be guaranteed H&A annually. It is, in my mind, a distant cousin to the English Premier League's relegation process (but without the lower level teams having to go down to MVC Jr.) It would be harder to manage but the end result -- a better chance at an at-large berth -- could mean more shares to be divided up by the conference on a regular basis.
Re: MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team lea
Postby MidWestMidMajor » April 28th, 2017, 9:40 am
This post showed up on csnbbs:
"Take it for what its worth. Panther insider says the MVC is going to 12. At least that is what they told the people at UWM. Valpo is a lock. Going into the process, the other three being considered, in order, were Murray State, Omaha and Milwaukee. No one else is being considered. Murray State cemented its position after the tour. Evidently, Omaha's tour didn't go well. It his belief that the MVC's opinion of Milwaukee was very positive after the tour. He thinks Milwaukee has passed up Omaha in the pecking order. Besides the media market, one reason Milwaukee is getting strong consideration is because the city produces a high number of mid-major players, who are recruiting targets for Valley schools."
It's just a guy quoting another guy about some gossip that supposedly leaked out from the MVC's visit to UW-Milw.
Maybe it's just smoke. Maybe there is some fire to it.
Seems like U Nebraska Omaha did not show well.
Quote from: talksalot on April 27, 2017, 02:58:44 PM
it's 110 miles from SIU Carbondale to Murray KY;
it's 111 miles from SIU Carbondale to Evansville
It's Hwy 13 (four lane) to I-57 to I-64 from Carbondale to Evansville.
From Carbondale to Murray, KY it's pretty much impossible to get there. :-)
That's a pretty good 19 year average!
Here is a graph of the average of 16 years worth of KenPom ratings for both the remaining MVC and HL schools, along with the rumored expansion candidates.
(http://i.imgur.com/4MxT6a3.jpg)
Awesome graph, but wouldn't INSt and ILSt make more sense for abbreviations?
So, how bad is it for the Horizon if Valpo leaves? If Valpo _and_ Milwaukee leave?
Is the league in a scramble mode? Or, do they reasonably have some time to think about it? Scheduling, at least, would get tricky next season?
What's the minimum number of teams in a conference for an auto-bid? 7?
Are the fans scrambling?
A couple quick follow up thoughts:
1) ISUr = Illinois State. ISUb = Indiana State. Those seemed to be the preferred abbreviations used on the MVC fans site, so that's what I went with.
2) Someone asked for 20 years, so I gave the longest time frame I have, but honestly, a shorter duration (maybe 8 years) is probably better. I'm not sure there's much value in accounting for how good teams were when current recruits were born.
3) The shorter you make the time frame, the better things look for Valpo. We still look very good at 16 years, and that's literally as bad as you can make us look.
Quote from: ml2 on April 28, 2017, 01:01:14 PM
A couple quick follow up thoughts:
1) ISUr = Illinois State. ISUb = Indiana State. Those seemed to be the preferred abbreviations used on the MVC fans site, so that's what I went with.
2) Someone asked for 20 years, so I gave the longest time frame I have, but honestly, a shorter duration (maybe 8 years) is probably better. I'm not sure there's much value in accounting for how good teams were when current recruits were born.
3) The shorter you make the time frame, the better things look for Valpo. We still look very good at 16 years, and that's literally as bad as you can make us look.
Your Kenpom graph is about what I expected. I figured we would rank 4th or 5th in the MVC over the last few decades. Interested that several MVC beat writers labeled us as the "best option in a bad list of options" considering that fact.
Quote from: a3uge on April 28, 2017, 12:52:15 PM
Awesome graph, but wouldn't INSt and ILSt make more sense for abbreviations?
ml2 is using the standard MVC abbreviations previously explained by UNIFTW.
Never mind, Matt clarified and I was responding to a post before his post.
Its incredible how close Murray State and Valpo are. Definitely two of the standard bearers of Mid Major hoops.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/858030620198531072
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/858030237808021504
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/the-missouri-valley-visits-are-over/
The Missouri Valley Visits Are Over
By Harry Schroeder on April 28, 2017
(St. Louis, MO) – The campus visits are over and now the Missouri Valley Conference power brokers are left with huge decisions. Do they want to add one team or multiple teams? Which campus, facility and administration impressed them the most? Which market helps the television ratings?
There may be other steps, but the campus visits to Murray State, Valparaiso, Milwaukee and Nebraska-Omaha are over and Commissioner Doug Elgin and the university presidents and athletic directors are sorting through the findings and impressions.
....................
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 28, 2017, 01:54:16 PM
Its incredible how close Murray State and Valpo are. Definitely two of the standard bearers of Mid Major hoops.
Considering the sheer numbers of possessions, games and opponent's efficiency ratings over the course of 16 years, that is a lot of math to come out with almost the exact same answer for each team, and certainly a compliment to both programs.
However over the last 7 seasons - which our MVC detractors should note includes three seasons without Alec Peters, and one season where he was a true freshman who averaged 12ppg - Valpo has been even better, relative to both Murray and everyone in the MVC not named Northern Iowa. Here is the same graph (same teams, same scale) for just the last 7 seasons.
(http://i.imgur.com/5qW17IU.jpg)
I wonder what Murray St would look like without the last two years...
Quote from: RacerJoeD on April 28, 2017, 03:10:08 PM
I wonder what Murray St would look like without the last two years...
They would still have those 3 straight losses to Valpo...not sayin, just sayin.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When evaluating programs moving forward you can certainly argue about how far back it is worthwhile to look, however, I think the data you'd least want to throw out is the most recent. It's the data most reflective of the roster you'd bring into a new conference and also the "what have you done for me lately" reputation that your coaches have to leverage (or fight against) in current recruiting battles.
All that being said...ask and ye shall receive.
From 2010-11 through 2014-15 Murray State does edge out Valpo 7.40 to 6.51. :thumbsup: In addition apparent MVC standard bearer UNI looks even better at 10.95.
What that data tells me is this-
If you care about the quality of the basketball product, add both Murray State and Valpo to the MVC.
Valpo RPIs for last 7 years:
2016-2017: 72
2015-2016: 49
2014-2015: 50
2013-2014: 190
2012-2013: 59
2011-2012: 97
2010-2011: 79
Northern Iowa's RPI the last 7 years:
2016-2017: 161
2015-2016: 73
2014-2015: 15
2013-2014: 109
2012-2013: 80
2011-2012: 72
2010-2011: 99
Murray State's RPI for the last 7 years:
2016-2017: 229
2015-2016: 170
2014-2015: 64
2013-2014: 144
2012-2013: 113
2011-2012: 23
2010-2011: 115
Someone add Illinois State's RPI list. They have some really cocky fans, and seem to be the most outspoken against adding Valpo...
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
My reaction after reading this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR6mWneKsbs
This administration (and its predecessor) has the most difficult time getting out of its own way when it comes to fully supporting the university's hugely successful flagship sport. I'm starting to become a believer in "privilege" because these people haven't done a damn thing to deserve what they have. They don't feel any responsibility to nurture it, or grow it, or leave it better than they found it. They're just takers.
At the same time, I have great empathy for ml. He has to have the most difficult job at Valpo dealing with people who don't have his back.
Whoever is giving pushback in the administration, needs to be fired. I would have to think that even academic leaders would see the benefits of being in an athletic conference with other highly ranked private schools...
Quote from: valpotx on April 28, 2017, 05:21:16 PM
Someone add Illinois State's RPI list. They have some really cocky fans, and seem to be the most outspoken against adding Valpo...
You're basing this off of what?
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 28, 2017, 09:47:46 AM
I found this assessment from the "Shock Waves" article to provide an interesting approach to a 12 team, 18 game schedule.
Jesse Kramer, thecatchandshoot.com
Losing Wichita State is of course a huge blow for the MVC's profile, but the opportunity for expansion gives the conference a chance to improve its ability to manipulate RPI for postseason selection and league reputation. But that's only if they go to 12 teams, ideally adding Murray State, Valpo and Milwaukee, and stick with an 18-game league schedule rather than moving to a 20-game slate.
With 18 games rather than 20, the MVC can try to manipulate its conference schedule based on preseason expectations to have the best teams play each twice while playing the worst teams only once. This is a strategy the 11-team MAAC will start using in the 2017-18 season largely as a response to Monmouth getting snubbed from the NCAA Tournament.
Here's an idea of how it could work in practice. (Of course the RPI numbers I'm about to use would change a bit based on Wichita State no longer being in the Valley, but let's roll with it.) Say this year's Illinois State team (No. 39 RPI) got to play Valpo (No. 78 RPI) twice and got rid of a game against Drake (No. 316 RPI). Maybe that schedule alteration gets them into the RPI Top 30 with two more "top 100 wins," and that could have been enough to get the Redbirds into the First Four instead of the NIT.
Preseason projections can be flawed so deciding who should have a home-and-home could backfire now and then, but generally they are pretty accurate.
And to be clear, the MVC should not have waited until Wichita State left to think about expanding to 12 teams. If they had tried earlier to strengthen the league and manipulate RPI to help postseason prospects for top teams, there's at least a chance that the Shockers would still be around.
He doesn't advocate two geographic divisions as most people are promoting with a 12 team conference. His approach is very pragmatic. Manipulate the schedule to optimize teams RPI, regardless of location, so that there is a better chance for the MVC to return to multi-bid status. He states that the MAAC is going in that direction.
Not trying to hog the credit but looks exactly like my 12 team proposal dropped last year and reintroduced recently (maybe this thread?) with a 14 team option to arrive at 19 league games.
Scheduling for a yearly floating halves conference looks like the trickiest part but if they can pull something like this off then they should give it a go! :thumbsup: The SOS and RPI benefits could be significant.
The only problem with that setup (unbalanced schedule with expected top teams avoiding expected cellar dwellers) is that sometimes predictions don't pan out. What happens if a top team has a down year? A lower-division team unexpectedly makes the leap? You could actually be hurting the conference's chances then. Also, I can't see ADs being willing to give up home games vs. top teams (i.e., likely to be their best conference game attendance) more than once every few years.
Quote from: ISUBird on April 28, 2017, 10:25:04 PM
Quote from: valpotx on April 28, 2017, 05:21:16 PM
Someone add Illinois State's RPI list. They have some really cocky fans, and seem to be the most outspoken against adding Valpo...
You're basing this off of what?
Several people on the MVC board that seem to be tied to Illinois State, as well as on your forum. It seems like Missouri State and Illinois State have the most people doubting our capability to continue our success, and don't like that we are a small school in the middle of NW IN. You have been cordial, but I have read some bad things from Redbird fans about us, and I really don't understand it. It reminds me of some of the comments that were being made about us before we joined the HL, before we proceeded to own that league, just as we did the Mid-Con/Summit :).
Quote from: valpotx on April 28, 2017, 11:04:40 PM
Quote from: ISUBird on April 28, 2017, 10:25:04 PM
Quote from: valpotx on April 28, 2017, 05:21:16 PM
Someone add Illinois State's RPI list. They have some really cocky fans, and seem to be the most outspoken against adding Valpo...
You're basing this off of what?
Several people on the MVC board that seem to be tied to Illinois State, as well as on your forum. It seems like Missouri State and Illinois State have the most people doubting our capability to continue our success, and don't like that we are a small school in the middle of NW IN. You have been cordial, but I have read some bad things from Redbird fans about us, and I really don't understand it. It reminds me of some of the comments that were being made about us before we joined the HL, before we proceeded to own that league, just as we did the Mid-Con/Summit :).
So most outspoken is two or three people max from what I've seen and nothing really negative. And your post is more cocky that most of what I see from any ISU fan.
Recently, you would be correct. However, when we were first mentioned, there were several Missouri State and Illinois State posters that were questioning why we would be considered. Yes, a lot of people have been positive. However, the negativity has stuck with me, since I remember that same crap from some of the HL schools when we were first mentioned 10-11 years ago. Having played against many of the schools in the HL and MVC when we were in the Mid-Con (baseball), I remember that same attitude when we took the field, before we would either win or barely lose versus those teams. We were always overlooked by the HL and MVC. My 'cocky' attitude comes from proving others wrong, and relishing when their predictions are incorrect about Valpo. Even at 35, I still have that underdog mentality ;).
Quote from: valpotx on April 29, 2017, 02:37:46 AM
Recently, you would be correct. However, when we were first mentioned, there were several Missouri State and Illinois State posters that were questioning why we would be considered. Yes, a lot of people have been positive. However, the negativity has stuck with me, since I remember that same crap from some of the HL schools when we were first mentioned 10-11 years ago. Having played against many of the schools in the HL and MVC when we were in the Mid-Con (baseball), I remember that same attitude when we took the field, before we would either win or barely lose versus those teams. We were always overlooked by the HL and MVC. My 'cocky' attitude comes from proving others wrong, and relishing when their predictions are incorrect about Valpo. Even at 35, I still have that underdog mentality ;).
If you're 35 then you wouldn't have played in the HL? I'm 34 and my senior year we were still in the Mid Continent Conference.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 29, 2017, 06:23:15 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 29, 2017, 02:37:46 AM
Recently, you would be correct. However, when we were first mentioned, there were several Missouri State and Illinois State posters that were questioning why we would be considered. Yes, a lot of people have been positive. However, the negativity has stuck with me, since I remember that same crap from some of the HL schools when we were first mentioned 10-11 years ago. Having played against many of the schools in the HL and MVC when we were in the Mid-Con (baseball), I remember that same attitude when we took the field, before we would either win or barely lose versus those teams. We were always overlooked by the HL and MVC. My 'cocky' attitude comes from proving others wrong, and relishing when their predictions are incorrect about Valpo. Even at 35, I still have that underdog mentality ;).
If you're 35 then you wouldn't have played in the HL? I'm 34 and my senior year we were still in the Mid Continent Conference.
That's not what he said.
Quote from: wh on April 29, 2017, 06:56:00 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on April 29, 2017, 06:23:15 AM
Quote from: valpotx on April 29, 2017, 02:37:46 AM
Recently, you would be correct. However, when we were first mentioned, there were several Missouri State and Illinois State posters that were questioning why we would be considered. Yes, a lot of people have been positive. However, the negativity has stuck with me, since I remember that same crap from some of the HL schools when we were first mentioned 10-11 years ago. Having played against many of the schools in the HL and MVC when we were in the Mid-Con (baseball), I remember that same attitude when we took the field, before we would either win or barely lose versus those teams. We were always overlooked by the HL and MVC. My 'cocky' attitude comes from proving others wrong, and relishing when their predictions are incorrect about Valpo. Even at 35, I still have that underdog mentality ;).
If you're 35 then you wouldn't have played in the HL? I'm 34 and my senior year we were still in the Mid Continent Conference.
That's not what he said.
And boom goes the dynamite...
Solid catch, I missed the "played against".
There are a lot of differences between Oakland and Valpo. There are similarities too (both had success at mid-con and took their promotion and have succeeded at the next level too, although Valpo's has been greater). One difference is Oakland is very aggressive in getting better and promoting basketball. They are not shy about it either. Does anyone remember this?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league)
"I think we've proven ourselves," Kampe said. "If you look at the last two years, we'd rank in the top third in the Horizon in attendance and RPI. Basketball is the flagship of that league so I'd think we'd help keep their RPI consistent after they lose Butler. - Kampe
"And from a travel standpoint, we're right in the middle of their footprint. Teams could play Detroit and us on a Thursday and Saturday and wouldn't even have to change hotels." - Kampe
Athletic Director, Tracy Huth, has made it clear that the school is "certainly interested in going to the Horizon League."
Kampe said he has talked to coaches in the Horizon League and all have been supportive of adding his program.
Sometimes I wish we would be a little more aggressive.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 29, 2017, 08:35:52 AM
There are a lot of differences between Oakland and Valpo. There are similarities too (both had success at mid-con and took their promotion and have succeeded at the next level too, although Valpo's has been greater). One difference is Oakland is very aggressive in getting better and promoting basketball. They are not shy about it either. Does anyone remember this?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league)
"I think we've proven ourselves," Kampe said. "If you look at the last two years, we'd rank in the top third in the Horizon in attendance and RPI. Basketball is the flagship of that league so I'd think we'd help keep their RPI consistent after they lose Butler. - Kampe
"And from a travel standpoint, we're right in the middle of their footprint. Teams could play Detroit and us on a Thursday and Saturday and wouldn't even have to change hotels." - Kampe
Athletic Director, Tracy Huth, has made it clear that the school is "certainly interested in going to the Horizon League."
Kampe said he has talked to coaches in the Horizon League and all have been supportive of adding his program.
Sometimes I wish we would be a little more aggressive.
Not sure what you are looking for. Kampe is a self-promoter and loves the media. Bryce certainly didn't have that personality and my guess is Matt doesn't either. Now, Kampe has certainly been "aggressive" in seeking talented but troubled transfers. I doubt Valpo would typically seek out players like Nunn and Clark to name two. Kampe has also had a tough time getting the talent he has to play like a team. Oh, there is talk on the oakland board that Clark may leave. "Not fitting in".
UNI fan here. I have enjoyed trolling on your board since the Wichita departure. I only know what I read on the different boards, but it seems like the conference is doing a good job and may not screw this one up. My dad graduated from Valpo on the GI Bill after WWII, so I have always had a tie and fond spot for Valpo, and yes, I'm old.
I don't think you should get too worked up about posts questioning adding you guys, even I wasn't sure right away, but after learning a little more about your program I am really excited about the possibility of you guys joining, as are most mvc fans. It's a process even for the fans, and most everybody is still feeling that the MVC screwed up the last addition, though Loyola's recruiting looks pretty solid lately. Much worse things were said about UNI when we joined the conference.
I also am intrigued with Milwaukee as well. I feel like the combination and Valpo, Milwaukee and Loyola will increase the Mo Valley's ability to recruit at a high level in Chicago. I don't have delusions about the average fan being interested, but commits will be able to have a large number of games in or close to Chicago family and friends.
Give me Valpo, Murray St. and UWM and I think the conference is as stronger than it was last year with Wichita.
Quote from: Valpo49 on April 29, 2017, 11:38:57 AM
UNI fan here. I have enjoyed trolling on your board since the Wichita departure. I only know what I read on the different boards, but it seems like the conference is doing a good job and may not screw this one up. My dad graduated from Valpo on the GI Bill after WWII, so I have always had a tie and fond spot for Valpo, and yes, I'm old.
I don't think you should get too worked up about posts questioning adding you guys, even I wasn't sure right away, but after learning a little more about your program I am really excited about the possibility of you guys joining, as are most mvc fans. It's a process even for the fans, and most everybody is still feeling that the MVC screwed up the last addition, though Loyola's recruiting looks pretty solid lately. Much worse things were said about UNI when we joined the conference.
I also am intrigued with Milwaukee as well. I feel like the combination and Valpo, Milwaukee and Loyola will increase the Mo Valley's ability to recruit at a high level in Chicago. I don't have delusions about the average fan being interested, but commits will be able to have a large number of games in or close to Chicago family and friends.
Give me Valpo, Murray St. and UWM and I think the conference is as stronger than it was last year with Wichita.
"Valpo 49" in memory of your Dad is very cool and thanks for your vote of confidence! Welcome to the board!
Some interesting things...our women's soccer team aparently played in the MVC in the 90's according to Wikipedia. Also there are only 3 schools that play men's tennis. Those schools will play in the Summit next year. Murray does not have it either. I mention this because currently it is probably our best sport. It will be curious to see what we do with it. Nor is men's swimming a sport in the MVC.
wh, I have a bad feeling the Valpo administration will think small and reject an invite to the MVC when given one. The university owes the basketball program some serious love after all these years.
C'mon Valpo administration, please for all of us do not mess this up.
In reallity, what reason do ISU and MoSt fans have a right to be uppity? What have they done recently? Seriously?
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 29, 2017, 08:35:52 AMOne difference is Oakland is very aggressive in getting better and promoting basketball. They are not shy about it either. Does anyone remember this?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league
From the article
Quote
"I think an Oakland-Detroit rivalry would be huge in southeast Michigan," he [Kampe] said. "When we played, there would be full houses, we'd be on the front page of the Detroit News and Free Press. There also would be television exposure that would help both schools and the Horizon.
I wonder how that's worked out for them?
MoSt used to kick our butt back in the Mid-Con days, when they were known as SW Mo St. People on their board still remember that time, versus our recent 4-0 record over them in the last 6-7 years.
Kampe might be good at promoting his program, but they haven't had a top 100 RPI season for 6 straight years now.
I kind of like the Kampmeister, he reminds me of Dick Fick and that used car salesman approach. sometimes a little show biz is good.
Guy in the White House agrees 🤐
Back to basketball we go...imagine we hear something sometime this next week.
Is there anyway Valpo can remain an affiliate member of the HL in mens tennis / swimming ?
Quote from: VUME on April 29, 2017, 04:41:41 PM
Is there anyway Valpo can remain an affiliate member of the HL in mens tennis / swimming ?
Yes, additionally, they could be an affiliated member wherever they apply and are accepted...just seems easier to keep the tennis and swimming programs where they are...
I wonder if keeping some programs in the HL like those mentioned above decreases the exit fee.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 29, 2017, 01:32:43 PM
In reallity, what reason do ISU and MoSt fans have a right to be uppity? What have they done recently? Seriously?
I already addressed this, I think you should go back and read it. Uppity would also be an exaggeration.
Kampe's approach has led the HLT to Detroit (garantuee he uses that in his recruiting pitch). Using this approach he gathered his resources and relationships to find Olympia and then sell it to LeGrone.
You guys are crazy if you don't think the mvc fans and supporters wouldn't despise us if we walked in and finagle the tournament to be in Chicago.
Thank you ISU bird for the update. All schools, including Valpo, have their uppity fans.
But I'm still pissed that you guys defeated my beloved Trojans back in 1985!
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that
gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities!
For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 29, 2017, 06:28:27 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities!
For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Why? They clearly won't want another bottom feeder whose facilities obviously are holding them back from landing any talented recruits!! :o
Rather than criticizing the ARC, the MVC search committee might do well to examine why their superior basketball facilities translate into inferior recruiting results when compared to Valpo. Or why tiny Valpo has average crowds nearly as large as the MVC's much larger universities and their higher student enrollments in larger communities.
There's only 3 possible explanations: (1) MVC programs underachieve, (2) Valpo overachieves, or (3) the impact of facilities on results is greatly overstated.
Quote from: wh on April 29, 2017, 08:34:12 PM
Rather than criticizing the ARC, the MVC search committee might do well to examine why their superior basketball facilities translate into inferior recruiting results when compared to Valpo. Or why tiny Valpo has average crowds nearly as large as the MVC's much larger universities and their higher student enrollments in larger communities.
There's only 3 possible explanations: (1) MVC programs underachieve, (2) Valpo overachieves, or (3) the impact of facilities on results is greatly overstated.
I'll take (D) All The Above...
But in all seriousness, facility size is a non problem. But facility finishes / functionality should be improved in the next 7-10 years.
Student Rec Center MUST come first though.
If uwm and valpo were to leave for greener pastures I doubt HL would be so generous to lallow both schools to park their men swimming teams in the HL.
There is only one recovery for the HL if they lose valpo and uwm. That is to join the summit.
I say this because there are no other easy simple additions like Oakland was.
IPFW - financial issues
Omaha - prefers the sl over the HL
Iupui- no baseball
Robert Morris - only 3 men's sports that would be sponsored in the HL (not one of them baseball)
Denver - not going to HL and doubt HL presidents would vote for them
Umkc - no baseball and closest school would uic.....
HL will have to abandoned baseball or merge?
Valley Insider: Odd number makes perfect sense
The Missouri Valley Conference can't afford another disaster.
Jim Connell | JCONNELL@NEWS-LEADER.COM
Updated 8 hours ago
http://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2017/04/30/valley-insider-odd-number-makes-perfect-sense/101073106/
With Saint Louis and Belmont out — and they surely were the first two calls Valley commissioner Doug Elgin made — there are a couple of acceptable schools in the mix.
I certainly understand why the writer thinks St. Louis was/is the number 1 pick but when he lists Belmont and then says that because they are out the Valley needs to seek out an "acceptable" replacement, I'm a bit lost. Belmont better fit than Valpo?
He goes on to say what a mistake it was to seek out and take Loyola primarily to gain a TV and big fan base. That is exactly why they would be thinking Belmont would be the better choice. Granted Belmont has had much better success in basketball than Loyola but that is it. Valpo has a better basketball record and draws much better.
I just don't like some of these guys making it sound like Valpo is going to have to be as good as they can do versus seeing us as a great addition.
72- I agree with your points. They are also off referring Valpo would not hesitate to join - I am sure some status quo-era in the VU administration is not enthusiastic about this. I hope that will not be their letdown. In life you sometimes have to take risks and think big.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 30, 2017, 09:13:02 AM
72- I agree with your points. They are also off referring Valpo would not hesitate to join - I am sure some status quo-era in the VU administration is not enthusiastic about this. I hope that will not be their letdown. In life you sometimes have to take risks and think big.
Nice way to put it USC. The author said something about crawling on hands and knees to St. Louis to sign a contract. Not sure that is either accurate or a fair statement. But it is not what a writer thinks that matters -- it's what the MVC committee and university presidents think.
Since the Board of Directors were scheduled to meet Friday and Saturday, we should be able to conclude a decision has been made by Valpo, perhaps similar to that made by the Murray State board. The longer the silence, the more likely the outcome is a move to MVC. If the VU board had decided to rebuff any invitation by the MVC or it was apparent an invitation was not coming, Valpo would need to get out in front with statements about looking forward to the future of the Horizon League. This is part of Public Relations 101.
Also, could be coincidence, but the Northwestern game was leaked the morning of the MVC directors' meeting and the Purdue game is leaked at the conclusion of the Valpo board meeting. With Northwestern and Purdue apparently added as non-conference games in the fall, the MVC has to feel assured about Valparaiso's ability to carry a strong schedule and contribute to the stature of the conference.
Finally, notice that the leaks about games with Northwestern and Purdue originated with Jon Rothstein, who was also the one who said the MVC was targeting Murray State and Valpo. Again, coincidence?
Quote from: vu72 on April 29, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 29, 2017, 06:28:27 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities!
For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Why? They clearly won't want another bottom feeder whose facilities obviously are holding them back from landing any talented recruits!! :o
Boy, that's the last time I reference Casablanca on this board again. Tough crowd.
On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not.
And no offense, but the fact that VU recruits well with a bad basketball arena does not excuse the fact that we have the worst venue in the HL and will have the worst venue in the MVC if we are invited to join.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2017, 12:45:10 PM
On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not.
My hunch is that they decided for a handful of (foolish) reasons that they wanted Loyola and "facilities" was the most convenient/believable excuse they could muster.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Okjoe - I think Valpo can resolve the facility situation. My concern is the administration, not Heckler but the others still living the I Like Ike days.
the basketball program has done more for the university than vice versa and it is time to pay the pauper and think growth.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2017, 12:45:10 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 29, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 29, 2017, 06:28:27 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities!
For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Why? They clearly won't want another bottom feeder whose facilities obviously are holding them back from landing any talented recruits!! :o
Boy, that's the last time I reference Casablanca on this board again. Tough crowd.
On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not.
And no offense, but the fact that VU recruits well with a bad basketball arena does not excuse the fact that we have the worst venue in the HL and will have the worst venue in the MVC if we are invited to join.
Why in the world would we need an excuse? Your definition of "worst" will soon/has been defined by our opponents as "hardest" to win. I'll take the intense rafter shaking crowd on top of you environment as opposed to Missouri State's 11,000 seat arena where they draw less than 50% on a Saturday night.
Quote from: vu72 on April 30, 2017, 01:24:59 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2017, 12:45:10 PMQuote from: vu72 on April 29, 2017, 07:27:47 PMQuote from: crusaderjoe on April 29, 2017, 06:28:27 PMQuote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PMThere's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities! For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Why? They clearly won't want another bottom feeder whose facilities obviously are holding them back from landing any talented recruits!! :o
Boy, that's the last time I reference Casablanca on this board again. Tough crowd. On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not. And no offense, but the fact that VU recruits well with a bad basketball arena does not excuse the fact that we have the worst venue in the HL and will have the worst venue in the MVC if we are invited to join.
Why in the world would we need an excuse? Your definition of "worst" will soon/has been defined by our opponents as "hardest" to win. I'll take the intense rafter shaking crowd on top of you environment as opposed to Missouri State's 11,000 seat arena where they draw less than 50% on a Saturday night.
Well put. I would rather have an old high school gym that is difficult for opponents to win in. Let's keep our home court advantage and uniqueness.
Has anyone noticed there's a MVC podcast on itunes?
Quote from: vu72 on April 30, 2017, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2017, 12:45:10 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 29, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 29, 2017, 06:28:27 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities!
For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Why? They clearly won't want another bottom feeder whose facilities obviously are holding them back from landing any talented recruits!! :o
Boy, that's the last time I reference Casablanca on this board again. Tough crowd.
On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not.
And no offense, but the fact that VU recruits well with a bad basketball arena does not excuse the fact that we have the worst venue in the HL and will have the worst venue in the MVC if we are invited to join.
Why in the world would we need an excuse? Your definition of "worst" will soon/has been defined by our opponents as "hardest" to win. I'll take the intense rafter shaking crowd on top of you environment as opposed to Missouri State's 11,000 seat arena where they draw less than 50% on a Saturday night.
There's also an assumption that there's no trade-offs associated with facilities spending. Perhaps the administration would be a little hesitant to allocate funds for a recruiting trip to Germany had it just dropped a couple of a million dollars on bathrooms and seats.
Quote from: a3uge on April 30, 2017, 02:08:25 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 30, 2017, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2017, 12:45:10 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 29, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 29, 2017, 06:28:27 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities!
For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Why? They clearly won't want another bottom feeder whose facilities obviously are holding them back from landing any talented recruits!! :o
Boy, that's the last time I reference Casablanca on this board again. Tough crowd.
On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not.
And no offense, but the fact that VU recruits well with a bad basketball arena does not excuse the fact that we have the worst venue in the HL and will have the worst venue in the MVC if we are invited to join.
Why in the world would we need an excuse? Your definition of "worst" will soon/has been defined by our opponents as "hardest" to win. I'll take the intense rafter shaking crowd on top of you environment as opposed to Missouri State's 11,000 seat arena where they draw less than 50% on a Saturday night.
There's also an assumption that there's no trade-offs associated with facilities spending. Perhaps the administration would be a little hesitant to allocate funds for a recruiting trip to Germany had it just dropped a couple of a million dollars on bathrooms and seats.
The University is NOT and will not be paying out of pocket (or taking on debt) to fund major renovations for the ARC for the foreseeable future.
Any future major renovations that will occur are most likely to come from a 'Lead Donor' (which currently does not exist (partially,imo because President Heckler isn't pursuing them)). The Student Rec Center needs to come first and should be the main priority, even ML mentioned that in his interview with Paul and when he sat down with Michael. The Student Rec Center should be a University wide goal/priority. ML even says he has the Blueprints for it in his office but has been unable to find the lead donor for the project yet (seems to me the AD shouldn't be the only administrator pursuing a donor for that project, but thats a discussion for another day).
To be honest I like the ARC because its such a tough place for opposing teams to come play and it has a charm to it. Would I love a new renovated Arena yes, but I don't care about the fan "experience" as much as I do about the product on the floor. Would renovations help with recruiting and attendance? Probably yes, but the most important quality of a good program is the PEOPLE in charge and not the facilities. Hopefully President Heckler & the Board doubles down on one of their greatest marketing/PR tools for the University has available to them one day.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 28, 2017, 03:22:46 PMnot sayin, just sayin
not saying "just sayin" or not "sayin, just sayin" or not saying just "sayin"?
It's not the presidents job to recruit lead donors. It may be his job to help deal the deal. I think those duties are more the AD's...he's probably looking hard, but if they just don't exist it doesn't matter how hard you look.
Quote from: M on April 30, 2017, 03:07:24 PM
It's not the presidents job to recruit lead donors. It may be his job to help deal the deal. I think those duties are more the AD's...he's probably looking hard, but if they just don't exist it doesn't matter how hard you look.
I'm sorry but it is part of the President's job to help recruit lead donors to major buildings and projects of the University. That is not the primary role of a University President but that is definitely in the unspoken job description.
Quote from: M on April 30, 2017, 03:07:24 PM
It's not the presidents job to recruit lead donors. It may be his job to help deal the deal. I think those duties are more the AD's...he's probably looking hard, but if they just don't exist it doesn't matter how hard you look.
Just a thought, but when the president and athletic director met with the Board of Directors, which I believe numbers about 35, and addressed them about the possibility of a move to the MVC (including concerns the MVC might have about facility renovation), I'm guessing that would be the ideal audience to initiate discussions and to begin networking about seeking donors for needed upgrades. In fact, having listened to the Murray State board meeting and their inclusion of future funding for a potential conference change, I can't imagine the Valpo discussion did not run parallel and also include proposals for future directions in funding of athletics if entering a new conference.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 29, 2017, 05:23:06 PM
Thank you ISU bird for the update. All schools, including Valpo, have their uppity fans.
But I'm still pissed that you guys defeated my beloved Trojans back in 1985!
That's okay.
Fun fact, ISU does not have a losing record against either USC or Valpo.
Quote from: wh on April 29, 2017, 08:34:12 PM
Rather than criticizing the ARC, the MVC search committee might do well to examine why their superior basketball facilities translate into inferior recruiting results when compared to Valpo. Or why tiny Valpo has average crowds nearly as large as the MVC's much larger universities and their higher student enrollments in larger communities.
There's only 3 possible explanations: (1) MVC programs underachieve, (2) Valpo overachieves, or (3) the impact of facilities on results is greatly overstated.
What's wrong in this case? For as much as I hear Valpo fans saying they are upset the MVC would ask them to upgrade I hear Valpo fans stating that some change needs to be made.
Loyola said they would do something with their athletics, and unfortunately I don't remember specifics, but they have not and if anything, they have gone down in attendance 300-440 since their last year in the Horizon. Why would the MVC want that to happen again?
Quote from: Dave_2010 on April 30, 2017, 12:55:22 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2017, 12:45:10 PM
On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not.
My hunch is that they decided for a handful of (foolish) reasons that they wanted Loyola and "facilities" was the most convenient/believable excuse they could muster.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I doubt that. Loyola needs to continue upgrading their facilities.
We all know Valpo needs to renovate the ARC. Clean it up, make it look 21st century. Add seats to the one end, maybe expand the north wall to 6500 seats, and for crying out loud sell beer at the games. We have a player from Germany, let's make him feel welcome.
The MVC was either going to invite Loyola or UIC regardless. Yes they took visits to Valpo (strongly consider us) and a few other places but the "market" was the primary driver for the MVC last time when they were replacing Creighton. "Market" beat out best basketball school last time around.
They chose Loyola (private) over UIC (public) because they wanted to maintain private replacing private. If Wichita State left before Creighton then we very likely could have seen UIC leaving over Loyola. Loyola facilities were just a way to spin it to fans and media. The MVC was pretty dead set on trying to penetrate the Chicago Market last time around. Loyola so far hasn't really added much to the MVC competitiveness since joining, although they should be better next season after putting together 2 nice recruiting classes. Even if with the possibility of Loyola being more competitive next season they still won't get much Chicago sports media attention unless they have an (last year) ISUr type season or start making the Tourney on a frequent basis.
I kid you not that Valpo has received more love and media attention from Chicago's media market the last 6-7 years then Loyola has.
You would be very surprised then who actually recruits these lead donors.
I would think that when the MVC was brought up they probably discussed as a group potential upgrades and maybe dollars and donors.
Quote from: M on April 30, 2017, 03:07:24 PMIt's not the presidents job to recruit lead donors. It may be his job to help deal the deal. I think those duties are more the AD's...he's probably looking hard, but if they just don't exist it doesn't matter how hard you look.
Doesn't Bryce have a bunch of money....?
Quote from: VU2014 on April 30, 2017, 02:43:01 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 30, 2017, 02:08:25 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 30, 2017, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2017, 12:45:10 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 29, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 29, 2017, 06:28:27 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities!
For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Why? They clearly won't want another bottom feeder whose facilities obviously are holding them back from landing any talented recruits!! :o
Boy, that's the last time I reference Casablanca on this board again. Tough crowd.
On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not.
And no offense, but the fact that VU recruits well with a bad basketball arena does not excuse the fact that we have the worst venue in the HL and will have the worst venue in the MVC if we are invited to join.
Why in the world would we need an excuse? Your definition of "worst" will soon/has been defined by our opponents as "hardest" to win. I'll take the intense rafter shaking crowd on top of you environment as opposed to Missouri State's 11,000 seat arena where they draw less than 50% on a Saturday night.
There's also an assumption that there's no trade-offs associated with facilities spending. Perhaps the administration would be a little hesitant to allocate funds for a recruiting trip to Germany had it just dropped a couple of a million dollars on bathrooms and seats.
The University is NOT and will not be paying out of pocket (or taking on debt) to fund major renovations for the ARC for the foreseeable future.
Any future major renovations that will occur are most likely to come from a 'Lead Donor' (which currently does not exist (partially,imo because President Heckler isn't pursuing them)). The Student Rec Center needs to come first and should be the main priority, even ML mentioned that in his interview with Paul and when he sat down with Michael. The Student Rec Center should be a University wide goal/priority. ML even says he has the Blueprints for it in his office but has been unable to find the lead donor for the project yet (seems to me the AD shouldn't be the only administrator pursuing a donor for that project, but thats a discussion for another day).
To be honest I like the ARC because its such a tough place for opposing teams to come play and it has a charm to it. Would I love a new renovated Arena yes, but I don't care about the fan "experience" as much as I do about the product on the floor. Would renovations help with recruiting and attendance? Probably yes, but the most important quality of a good program is the PEOPLE in charge and not the facilities. Hopefully President Heckler & the Board doubles down on one of their greatest marketing/PR tools for the University has available to them one day.
I like the notion that there's a super rich alumni that wants to drop $20 million on athletic facilities for Valpo, but is just waiting for someone (like the president or ad) to ask nicely first.
Quote from: M on April 30, 2017, 04:45:16 PM
You would be very surprised then who actually recruits these lead donors.
I would think that when the MVC was brought up they probably discussed as a group potential upgrades and maybe dollars and donors.
Here's your answer:
John Kuka joined Valparaiso University as an associate director of athletics in February of 2013.
Kuka is responsible for the advancement operations of the athletic department, including all major gift fundraising and oversight of the Crusader Fund. In his first three years at Valpo, he secured gifts to renovate the Kroencke Hall weight room, the football locker room and several other projects.
Quote from: vu72 on April 30, 2017, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 30, 2017, 12:45:10 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 29, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 29, 2017, 06:28:27 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on April 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
There's more people closer than me but thought id share what i heard this week....been hearing that the visit went well, MVC was still disappointed in the facilities but that likely isnt going to be a hold up this time. There is some resistance in the valpo admin, but the feeling is that if a MVC invite comes along that there's enough pull to make it happen. Just thought id pass that info along..this should all be wrapping up in a week or two hopefully
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here the MVC is still disappointed in our facilities!
For your friend to suggest such flotsam and jetsam is outright preposterous.
Why? They clearly won't want another bottom feeder whose facilities obviously are holding them back from landing any talented recruits!! :o
Boy, that's the last time I reference Casablanca on this board again. Tough crowd.
On a more serious note, some posters advised that facilities had nothing to do with the MVC passing us over last time. But we have a reference to them during this visit. So which is it? They either are part of an overall consideration or they are not.
And no offense, but the fact that VU recruits well with a bad basketball arena does not excuse the fact that we have the worst venue in the HL and will have the worst venue in the MVC if we are invited to join.
Why in the world would we need an excuse? Your definition of "worst" will soon/has been defined by our opponents as "hardest" to win. I'll take the intense rafter shaking crowd on top of you environment as opposed to Missouri State's 11,000 seat arena where they draw less than 50% on a Saturday night.
So, in other words, since we
win with the status quo, and since we
draw with the status quo, we therefore don't need to make any changes
to the status quo. How many academic buildings would have been built at Valpo over the last 20 or so years with that mentality?
Attendance has been in decline for several years, despite a product that's as good as it's ever been. I think the fall off can be traced in part to a couple of things. For one prices were raised significantly when we moved to the HL. That may have worked for the wars with Butler and the Detroit bad boys and the dirtiest team in D-1 Cleveland State and stacked Wright State and Milwaukee teams, but those days are long gone. It's definitely time to shake things up - move to the MVC, get some new blood coming in to the ARC, do some modernization, and find a fix for the self-induced parking fiasco.
Agreed. The Horizon was a step up, but no one seemed to care.
Does better name recognition of the conference teams mean more fans at the ARC? At least it should initially. I'll just be silent on the students for now. Nothing to lose and much to gain.
Quote from: wh on April 30, 2017, 07:31:39 PM
Attendance has been in decline for several years, despite a product that's as good as it's ever been. I think the fall off can be traced in part to a couple of things. For one prices were raised significantly when we moved to the HL. That may have worked for the wars with Butler and the Detroit bad boys and the dirtiest team in D-1 Cleveland State and stacked Wright State and Milwaukee teams, but those days are long gone. It's definitely time to shake things up - move to the MVC, get some new blood coming in to the ARC, do some modernization, and find a fix for the self-induced parking fiasco.
Agreed. I really think it comes to 2 main factors:
1. The HL really isn't as competitive as it use to be. How many times can you watch YSU, Cleveland St, UIC (should be better next year) and UWM getting spanked at the ARC by 10-20 pts every year. People are just tired of the same old uncompetitive HL teams... I really think getting more competitive teams into the ARC should help attendance. Not to mention if you look at the MVC TV scheduling it is way more friendly then the HL scheduling. Not to mention I think the folks at the MVC offices might know better then scheduling rivalry games when students are on campus and not on break.
2. I think there is just more outlets for entertainment these days then there use to be so Valpo Basketball needs to compete with those other outlets. Thats another argument for making some improvements to the ARC. Improve the park situation, bathrooms, more comfortable seating, and bigger concessions. But lets not beat a dead-horse here.
Quote from: VU2014 on April 30, 2017, 02:43:01 PM
The University is NOT and will not be paying out of pocket (or taking on debt) to fund major renovations for the ARC for the foreseeable future.
Any future major renovations that will occur are most likely to come from a 'Lead Donor' (which currently does not exist (partially,imo because President Heckler isn't pursuing them)). The Student Rec Center needs to come first and should be the main priority, even ML mentioned that in his interview with Paul and when he sat down with Michael. The Student Rec Center should be a University wide goal/priority. ML even says he has the Blueprints for it in his office but has been unable to find the lead donor for the project yet (seems to me the AD shouldn't be the only administrator pursuing a donor for that project, but thats a discussion for another day).
To be honest I like the ARC because its such a tough place for opposing teams to come play and it has a charm to it. Would I love a new renovated Arena yes, but I don't care about the fan "experience" as much as I do about the product on the floor. Would renovations help with recruiting and attendance? Probably yes, but the most important quality of a good program is the PEOPLE in charge and not the facilities. Hopefully President Heckler & the Board doubles down on one of their greatest marketing/PR tools for the University has available to them one day.
It's probably too late to influence a go/no-go decision on the part of the Valpo Board. By now it's done. HOWEVER, there is something that can be done with respect to all subsequent decisions regarding the athletic program.
Fellow Valpo posters, as far as I can tell, we, as a group, are good at analyzing strengths and weaknesses of players, coaches, administrators, facilities and anything that relates to athletics. And when an issue is raised among us there is a ton of strong opinions, most based on deep thought. We are vocal and that's great. But to whom do we express those strong opinions? Answer: To ourselves, our fellow posters. The AD occasionally monitors the forum, but I'm positive MH and the Board never consult us nor take the pulse of Valpo fandom.
People in positions of leadership can be influenced, but not by a fan board they don't read. There are a number of current major athletics issues where the AD, the University administration and the VU board need to hear DIRECTLY from alumni (especially alumni), friends of the university, and Valpo sports fans.
The first should have been an overwhelming flood of emails, correspondence and phone calls voicing support of a move to the MVC. Probably too late for the vote, however, but important nevertheless.
The second relates to that and what is so much a part of the fiber of this forum on the MVC move -- improved facilities to support the move to the MVC. While many of us have some different ideas on exactly what and how extensive, we all agree that after 33 years the interior of the ARC is desparately in need of an upgrade to piggyback on the improvements to the floor and scoreboard. This is a capital investment in a physical asset. While applying a fiscally responsibe approach, much can be done if the leadership views this as good stewardship of existing physical assets.
My point is this. Complaining and moaning to the choir (us on the forum) does little than provide a place for venting -- you may feel better after unburdening yourself, but nothing is accomplished by it and the the job doesn't get done.
But we are still in the early stages of this MVC process. I urge every one of us who has an opinion on the MVC move and the need to upgrade the ARC, to send an email to MLB AND MK expressing how you feel as an alumni or friend of the university.
I did that Monday and I did not get struck dead by lightning (I also haven't received any replies -- yet, but that's to be expected given the events of this past week). Besides expressing a positive opinion on the MVC move, there were two things I suggested to them which I'd like to share with all of you.
1) I stated that I understood that funds were tight, but within that restriction, I suggested that a move to the MVC would be the ideal moment to replace the seating in the ARC as well as add permanent retractable chairback seating on the east baseline (I even attached some screen shots of reasonable possibilities). I believe this is a great way to not only announce the move but visually indicate to the college basketball world that this is TRULY a new era in Valpo basketball -- although it might only be an interim move. I also mentioned that I was note alone on this (i.e., hopefully, I have stated the sentiments of most/all of those on the forum).
2) I am a great believer that if someone has a gripe, when that gripe is expressed, it should come with a recommended solution. So I questioned the "lead donor" approach for this particular effort stating that this is an extraordinary moment in time for VU that requires out-of-the-box thinking. I encouraged a strategy that would, for once, bring development out of the shadows, and publicize a specific campaign dedicated to raising funds for the seating replacemment that would appeal to all alumni, not just some guy with deep pockets. There is certainly a place for the lead donor role in development, but it has long been my opinion that there are many alumni and friends who would give something to a specific campaign for a specific thing, but due to the "lead donor" philosophy that keeps those needs out of the limelight, many alumni only give moderate amounts to general stuff. I reinforced this approach to MMLB and MK with a specific pledge (I'm retired, so it wasn't a whole hell of a lot ;) ) if they do just that -- Announce an ARC seating upgrade project. At worst it could uncover a new lead donor.
Regardless of your specific views, I encourage every Valpo alum, friend or fan reading this to
do something, whatever it is, along the same line and give the athletic department and the Valpo administration direct feedback and input from concerned individuals. One email won't do it, but a flood of mails from many alumni and friends of Valpo cannot be ignored.
Many MVC teams have a gaudy record against us because of our pre-1993 basketball, but that would change if we join. The HL teams had the same gaudy record against us before we joined, and we changed that quickly :)
I really hope to see attendance jump up next year among the students whether we stay or go. I will say that this year's schedule was a rough one in regards to dates and times that I hope wont' be repeated last year.
Another piece, is that the Valpo Athletic Department had some turn over in pretty devoted/long-standing members moving on to newer things and a new coaching team focusing on their development with other issues. I do feel like this year the general marketing to the campus body was not as well done as the last few years which contributed to it as well. I hope that is something that is rectified in the future now that everyone, hopefully, has their sea legs.
MVC Insider, Harry Schroeder was just on a Murray State radio station and he mentioned that the people he's talked to seem to think that we may get an announcement by May 7 or May 8.
The 10 teams vs 12 teams got brought up again, he hinted that he thinks they are going 12. Valpo and Murray State are Tier A and Tier B is UWM and Omaha, but there is a pretty big drop off from Valpo and Murray State and there are no obvious 12th team.
I sort of hope they go 11 so they can play a 20 game round robin conference regular season. Then have a 1-2yr tryout for the 12th team to make sure they get it right and not settle. Maybe in a year or 2, Belmont changes its mind or another mystery school pops up. Maybe the MVC's Pipe-dream school SLU moves back to the MVC (highly unlikely). You get 1-2 more years of results/track record from the UWM's basketball team (i like their coach, but their AD is a mess. UWM is in the middle of a rebuild). I would far and away prefer UWM over Omaha. I'm not sold with the Omaha's young bball program and I'm not sold they can competitively fund their basketball team, especially with the news that the schools is losing $ on their new Basketball arena.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Fingers crossed we get an invite and at least go to 11.
I kind of hope UWM gets in (As long as we do) so it hurts LeCrone and the HL......Sorry I said it.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 01, 2017, 09:55:59 AM
I kind of hope UWM gets in (As long as we do) so it hurts LeCrone and the HL......Sorry I said it.
I can't imagine what is going on in the Horizon League offices this week. These guys have got to be going nuts because they have no control over the scenario. Do we lose.... one :(, two >:(, or none ::)
With the current position of the HL any loss might be worse than losing Butler. In its current state the HL is still slightly better than the OVC and Summit, but without VU that changes dramatically. For what reason would a team now want to move to the Horizon other than IUPUI or IPFW for travel cost savings???
To my friend FWalum, when you say IPFW, do you mean Purdue University-Fort Wayne or Indiana University-Fort Wayne? ;)
If the HL loses both Valpo and Milwaukee, it would put them in trouble of losing the auto-bid in baseball again. They can operate at 5 schools for 1 or 2 seasons, but they have to find a 6th. Since IPFW isn't a slam dunk to stay D-1 with the school's changes, they will have to get creative.
Hey all. Our play by play guy, the "Voice of the Racers", Neal Bradley is back after some health issues with his take on the Murray State to MVC talks. Here is the link.
http://www.1340wnbs.com/episode/the-neal-bradley-show-monday-may-1-2017/
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 01, 2017, 09:55:59 AM
I kind of hope UWM gets in (As long as we do) so it hurts LeCrone and the HL......Sorry I said it.
As down as I am on UWM, the MVC should take 2 HL teams just to maintain a pecking order of Midwest mid major basketball. The HL would have to add another team, and they'll probably raid the Summit or OVC.
Quote from: a3uge on May 01, 2017, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 01, 2017, 09:55:59 AM
I kind of hope UWM gets in (As long as we do) so it hurts LeCrone and the HL......Sorry I said it.
As down as I am on UWM, the MVC should take 2 HL teams just to maintain a pecking order of Midwest mid major basketball. The HL would have to add another team, and they'll probably raid the Summit or OVC.
I say just wait a 1-2yrs and see how the UWM hire works out and see if UWM can get their attendance up (far worse attendance then Valpo & Murray St) and see if their AD can get her act together. UWM won't be going anywhere and if the MVC could pick them up again in year or two.
I'm not sure their is any other school "worthy" of poaching from the OVC other then Belmont (if Murray State left with us to the MVC) and Belmont is not leaving for the HL. Also what is the cost benefit for schools to want to leave for the HL? Better League? Yes, but when you factor in the $1M exit-fee and then also the one time $882,000 Horizon League entry-fee (that was the entry fee for Oakland back in 2013), is really worth it? Also the OVC schools have to give up their shares without a 2yr notice, not to mention the OVC is really low travel costs and any school coming from the OVC would see greater travel costs. Also factor in the fact that HL revenues are pretty meager.
The HL would be poaching from the Summit. LeCrone is rumored to covet of Omaha and is interested in Denver. The HL was seriously considering move to 12 even if we stayed apparently. I could see them replacing whatever schools are lost and remain at 10 and then expanding to 12 at some point in the next 2 yrs. I wouldn't be exactly thrilled of the prospects of IPFW or IUPUI joining the HL (Although IUPUI has picked up some solid transfer recently, but regardless I don't want to be in a conference with them).
Not sure if all our coaches would be completely thrilled with a move to the MVC. Volleyball, for instance, would be facing much tougher competition in the MVC, with reduced chances of winning a conference title and making the NCAA field.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on May 01, 2017, 11:39:05 AM
Not sure if all our coaches would be completely thrilled with a move to the MVC. Volleyball, for instance, would be facing much tougher competition in the MVC, with reduced chances of winning a conference title and making the NCAA field.
Paul
Don't coaches want to compete against the best? I'd personally would rather see our teams compete against the better competition then beat on a league that we've already proven we can be the best of.
"Success breeds complacency. Complacency breeds failure. Only the paranoid survive." - Andy Grove
Quote from: a3uge on May 01, 2017, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 01, 2017, 09:55:59 AM
I kind of hope UWM gets in (As long as we do) so it hurts LeCrone and the HL......Sorry I said it.
As down as I am on UWM, the MVC should take 2 HL teams just to maintain a pecking order of Midwest mid major basketball. The HL would have to add another team, and they'll probably raid the Summit or OVC.
If Valpo and Milwaukee leave, does the Horizon look to merge with either the Summit or OVC? That might be their only path as why would a Summit League team leave for The Horizon with no Valpo or Milwaukee? I haven't looked at how a merger might stack up but with the raiding going on a merger would ensure stability even if a couple of other schools leave.
QuoteNot sure if all our coaches would be completely thrilled with a move to the MVC. Volleyball, for instance, would be facing much tougher competition in the MVC, with reduced chances of winning a conference title and making the NCAA field.
With all due respect to volleyball, non-revenue sports should have zero bearing on this decision whatsoever. Also, what 2014 said: play the best to be the best.
Quote from: 78crusader on May 01, 2017, 11:39:05 AMNot sure if all our coaches would be completely thrilled with a move to the MVC. Volleyball, for instance, would be facing much tougher competition in the MVC, with reduced chances of winning a conference title and making the NCAA field.
The other teams will have to get better then. Frankly, this shouldn't be a concern, though. Valpo is a special place (with or without the facility upgrades) and attracts a special kind of athlete. If a coach is going to shy away from "tougher competition" then the AD should fire them yesterday.
Also, I haven't looked at the numbers but I'd be stunned if there was a significant funding difference for Olympic sports between the MVC and HL (outside of maybe baseball). Outside of the P5 (and even at a few P5 schools), these non-football/basketball programs are all pretty much run on a shoestring.
And I would suggest that the non-revenue sports have shown the ability to respond to the increased challenge of a more competitive conference environment based on how they responded to the HL move. MSO, WSO, SB, Baseball, VB, MT, MG have all kicked it up a notch to always be in the HL hunt. T&F seems to be on a slow upswing with the jury is still out on WT and WG. Until MS and WS get a new pool, they will not be competitive as teams, although each might attract an individual or two who might be competitive at a new level. WBB is the only higher profile sport that has not responded well. In the end, the recruiting appeal of being MVC members might actually help convince some recruits in some of these sports to sign on due to the upgraded conference profile.
NOTE on MS and WS. The MVC only sponsors a 7 school MVC women's swimming championship. The few schools (SIU, MU, EU) in the MVC with men's swimming have those teams competing in the MAC. So with the MVC not sponsoring MS, the VU adminstration might have to consider whether men's swimming will continue to be offered as a varsity sport. Dropping the men's program will not save too much in expenses, but....... Those fund could go to bolstering WS and/or helping other sports.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 01, 2017, 09:55:59 AM
I kind of hope UWM gets in (As long as we do) so it hurts LeCrone and the HL......Sorry I said it.
Milwaukee and Valpo leaving would put Green Bay in a world of hurt. Their closest sister program (and future partner) would be UIC at 210 miles away. The other 6 remaining HL teams range from 500 - 610 miles away with an average distance of 530 miles. They would go from 3 "short trip" opponents to 1. Total travel costs and travel time would increase substantially for every sport, which would in turn put more strain their already stingy athletic budget. I looked at the Summit League as a possible move for them, but average distance to opponent schools goes up another 100 miles.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 01, 2017, 10:52:29 AM
To my friend FWalum, when you say IPFW, do you mean Purdue University-Fort Wayne or Indiana University-Fort Wayne? ;)
:rotfl: I think the athletic programs will be under the Purdue Fort Wayne moniker. Let's hope they continue to use just Fort Wayne and not PUFW.
I hope they do not end up being like IU-South Bend or Purdue-Northwest.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 01, 2017, 12:36:09 PM
NOTE on MS and WS. The MVC only sponsors a 7 school MVC women's swimming championship. The few schools (SIU, MU, EU) in the MVC with men's swimming have those teams competing in the MAC. So with the MVC not sponsoring MS, the VU adminstration might have to consider whether men's swimming will continue to be offered as a varsity sport. Dropping the men's program will not save too much in expenses, but....... Those fund could go to bolstering WS and/or helping other sports.
BTW, the VU men's roster is 20, the women's is 15. Both teams are coached by the same head coach with a grad assistant. Truely shoestring. But it brings in 35 tuition paying student athletes.
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 12:51:51 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 01, 2017, 09:55:59 AM
I kind of hope UWM gets in (As long as we do) so it hurts LeCrone and the HL......Sorry I said it.
Milwaukee and Valpo leaving would put Green Bay in a world of hurt. Their closest sister program (and future partner) would be UIC at 210 miles away. The other 6 remaining HL teams range from 500 - 610 miles away with an average distance of 530 miles. They would go from 3 "short trip" opponents to 1. Total travel costs and travel time would increase substantially for every sport, which would in turn put more strain their already stingy athletic budget. I looked at the Summit League as a possible move for them, but average distance to opponent schools goes up another 100 miles.
This is a bit of a stretch, but if the Horizon were to breakup, where would the schools go? I could see the Summit going to 12 and taking Oakland, UIC and NKU. That leaves CSU to go to the OVC to replace Murray and YSU to the MAC because of their football success. That leaves Green Bay who could join up with some Michigan or Minnesota schools and play D2 or join with a bunch of other Wisconsin publics (GB is probably the smallest of this group) in the Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference which, I believe, plays D3. ???
Why wouldn't GB go to the summit -- actually a lot closer to the Dakota schools than OU, UIC, or NKU? I would think that NKU or Wright State, BTW, might be in the running for the vacant OVC spot - not CSU.
Back to GB. Downgrade? That'll be a killer up here in NE Wisconsin.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 01, 2017, 01:40:38 PM
Why wouldn't GB go to the summit -- actually a lot closer to the Dakota schools than OU, UIC, or NKU? I would think that NKU or Wright State, BTW, might be in the running for the vacant OVC spot - not CSU.
Back to GB. Downgrade? That'll be a killer up here in NE Wisconsin.
I totally forgot about Wright State AND Detroit! As for GB, I was half kidding although wh had pointed out how they would be a fair amount further away from the remaining schools or the schools in the Summit. When I looked at colleges in Wisconsin and then noticed all the state schools with larger enrollments than GB (some twice as big) it occurred to me that with their financial difficulties it could be the right time for them, who knows! You are correct about NKU or WSU being a better fit for the OVC. CSU would have to look east as would Detroit.
But your point and WH's beforehand is valid. The HL schools would be in a world of hurt if the league disintegrates. I hope that it doesn't.
Would the HL go after Lipscomb in Nashville? They are in teh Atlantic Sun right now and were 3rd in the MBB standings. They are within rockthrowing distance of KNU and WSU.
The MAC ain't taking YSU. No way, no how. Don't need another Ohio school, and they ditched the 13-team arrangement in football because it was terrible for scheduling.
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of moving to the MVC. Then, I was assuming that the HL would remain unchanged. Since, I have come to the conclusion that most every other HL program would bail at the first opportunity, including Milwaukee, UIC, Oakland, Wright State, and Detroit. There is little or no loyalty or commitment to the HL. This is survival of the fittest. If the MVC offers we have no choice but to say yes and don't give the future of the HL another thought. The exact same way every other HL program would do to us, given the chance.
Another thought re: the HL. Is there any possibility that while this has all been going down over the past 3-4 weeks that the HL Commisioner and HL leadership have come up with some sort of incentive package for Valpo to stay? I have absolutely no idea what a conference can do, especially the HL in this regard, but in the business world if you have an asset (and a league member like Valpo is one) that you don't want to lose, you sweeten the pie somehow. How? I haven't even the remotest of clues.
Here is my hypothetical-
Murray St (OVC) goes to MVC
Valpo (HL) goes to MVC
Morehead (OVC) goes to HL
Lipscomb (ASUN) goes to OVC
IUPUI (Summit) goes to HL
IPFW (Summit) goes to HL
UMKC (WAC) goes to Summit
Chicago St (WAC) goes to Summit
OVC goes from 12 teams to 11 (8 FCS football) (footprint shrinks)
HL goes from 10 teams to 12 (Footprint stays the same)
Summit stays at 9 (footprint gets bigger, stays in large markets)
ASUN goes from 8 to 7, but back to 8 with addition of North Alabama.
WAC goes from 8 to 6, threatening existence. Footprint shrinks. Possible merge with Big West. WAC is the "sick man of college sports".
This doesn't take into account the desire of Eastern KY (OVC), Jacksonville St (OVC), Missouri St (MVC) to go to FBS. Once you get into FBS football, all bets are off. Example, West Virginia in the BIG 12.
Let's get a grip. The HL is not going to implode if UWM and Valpo leave for the MVC. Hell, it's easily fixable right off the bat. You take UMKC from the WAC and Oral Roberts from the Summit and travel partner them. Baseball is very well protected and you have your stepping stone to Omaha and possibly Denver if you want to expand that far west. Potentially split east west divisions at 12 for travel in the future. UIC and UWGB become travel partners. Or you stay in Indiana and explore Fort Wayne for geography and baseball and stay at nine for awhile and see what shakes out.
Quote from: FWalum on May 01, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 01, 2017, 09:55:59 AM
I kind of hope UWM gets in (As long as we do) so it hurts LeCrone and the HL......Sorry I said it.
I can't imagine what is going on in the Horizon League offices this week. These guys have got to be going nuts because they have no control over the scenario. Do we lose.... one :(, two >:(, or none ::)
With the current position of the HL any loss might be worse than losing Butler. In its current state the HL is still slightly better than the OVC and Summit, but without VU that changes dramatically. For what reason would a team now want to move to the Horizon other than IUPUI or IPFW for travel cost savings???
So did the rest of the HL care that much about Valpo's chances to make the Big Dance in 15-16 or 16-17? Did anyone other than UIC vote against the tournament moving to Detroit? I accepted going to Detroit but would like St Louis better. The outcomes will come to the schools that screwed Valpo.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 01, 2017, 02:30:38 PMAnother thought re: the HL. Is there any possibility that while this has all been going down over the past 3-4 weeks that the HL Commisioner and HL leadership have come up with some sort of incentive package for Valpo to stay? I have absolutely no idea what a conference can do, especially the HL in this regard, but in the business world if you have an asset (and a league member like Valpo is one) that you don't want to lose, you sweeten the pie somehow. How? I haven't even the remotest of clues.
huh...you mean like not changing the HLT to Detroit the year we have our best team since 1998?
Quotehuh...you mean like not changing the HLT to Detroit the year we have our best team since 1998?
Forget that it was our best team since then. Next to the Butler Final Four teams, the 2016 VU team was the best *HL* squad in over a decade.
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of moving to the MVC. Then, I was assuming that the HL would remain unchanged. Since, I have come to the conclusion that most every other HL program would bail at the first opportunity, including Milwaukee, UIC, Oakland, Wright State, and Detroit. There is little or no loyalty or commitment to the HL. This is survival of the fittest. If the MVC offers we have no choice but to say yes and don't give the future of the HL another thought. The exact same way every other HL program would do to us, given the chance.
You bring up a good point regarding loyalty.
If OU or GB or NKU left the HL would VU be scrambling for the exit too. I'd sure hope they have an escape plan because this conference losing any of the current Top 4 programs has problems imo.
I'm starting to come around to a MVC opportunity if only for the perceived stability of its member schools. This is important for our sports teams to continue to mature.
Commuter Universities can be disinterested at best when funding their sports teams OR garnering solid attendance which even we have had a hard time of late. Even with over 3,000 students land locked on our "walking" campus we have difficulty.
If not for Kampe, would OU still be ok with D2?
Guess I'd vote for heading to the MVC this late in the game. Still concerned about the medium fish in a larger pond concept. But if we don't take strong steps to keep up Coaches momentum then we are doomed to take large strides backward. Homer set the base, Bryce built nicely and now Lottich is carrying the momentum in Year 1.
Could be a great blessing for our bball team!
If the Horizon League ceases to exist, the biggest loser is Little Caesars.
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of moving to the MVC. Then, I was assuming that the HL would remain unchanged. Since, I have come to the conclusion that most every other HL program would bail at the first opportunity, including Milwaukee, UIC, Oakland, Wright State, and Detroit. There is little or no loyalty or commitment to the HL. This is survival of the fittest. If the MVC offers we have no choice but to say yes and don't give the future of the HL another thought. The exact same way every other HL program would do to us, given the chance.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 01, 2017, 02:58:41 PM
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of moving to the MVC. Then, I was assuming that the HL would remain unchanged. Since, I have come to the conclusion that most every other HL program would bail at the first opportunity, including Milwaukee, UIC, Oakland, Wright State, and Detroit. There is little or no loyalty or commitment to the HL. This is survival of the fittest. If the MVC offers we have no choice but to say yes and don't give the future of the HL another thought. The exact same way every other HL program would do to us, given the chance.
You bring up a good point regarding loyalty.
If OU or GB or NKU left the HL would VU be scrambling for the exit too. I'd sure hope they have an escape plan because this conference losing any of the current Top 4 programs has problems imo.
I'm starting to come around to a MVC opportunity if only for the perceived stability of its member schools. This is important for our sports teams to continue to mature.
Commuter Universities can be disinterested at best when funding their sports teams OR garnering solid attendance which even we have had a hard time of late. Even with over 3,000 students land locked on our "walking" campus we have difficulty.
If not for Kampe, would OU still be ok with D2?
Guess I'd vote for heading to the MVC this late in the game. Still concerned about the medium fish in a larger pond concept. But if we don't take strong steps to keep up Coaches momentum then we are doomed to take large strides backward. Homer set the base, Bryce built nicely and now Lottich is carrying the momentum in Year 1.
Could be a great blessing for our bball team!
If the MVC offers Valpo membership, and it comes time for VU to discuss and consider conference loyalty in the present as part of a larger consideration of its acceptance, I would only hope that VU would also equally discuss and consider what transpired in 1993 in this context when making such a determination, and then make whatever decision is deemed as being acceptable.
http://www.courierpress.com/story/sports/college/evansville/2017/04/29/closer-look-mvc-expansion-candidates/100995410/
A closer look at MVC expansion candidates
Daniel Allar , daniel.allar@courierpress.com
April 30, 2017
1. Valparaiso
Pros:
"With two Indiana schools and nearby Loyola (Chicago) already in the league, Valparaiso is a good geographic fit, which cuts down on inconvenience and travel costs. Based on recent history, the Crusaders are the best bet to elevate the profile of the league in men's basketball. For those seeking a true public-private balance, this addition would give the MVC five public schools and five private schools."
Cons:
"The Crusaders had plenty of stability with the Drew family in charge; Homer Drew led them to five consecutive NCAA Tournament appearances from 1996-2000, and his son, Bryce, won four Horizon League regular-season titles from 2012-16. Bryce Drew's former assistant, Matt Lottich, had a solid first season at the helm but is still largely unproven. And now Lottich must maintain the Crusaders' standard without Alec Peters, the 2017 Horizon League Player of the Year and a two-time honorable mention AP All-American."
2. Murray State
3. Nebraska Omaha
4. Milwaukee
It just confounds me that in some observers eyes, when a team(Valpo in this case) loses its best player then their program will go too h--- in a hand basket in the future and will never return or remain being an outstanding and highly competive program. Our program has had many outstanding individuals over the years. Then they leave. AND WE STILL GET SOME OUTSTANDING INDIVIDUALS TO REPLACE THEM AND MAINTAIN A HIGH LEVEL OF PLAY. Do they really think that now that AP is gone we will never again put a good team on the floor?
Quote from: valpo64 on May 01, 2017, 04:33:40 PM
It just confounds me that in some observers eyes, when a team(Valpo in this case) loses its best player then their program will go too h--- in a hand basket in the future and will never return or remain being an outstanding and highly competive program. Our program has had many outstanding individuals over the years. Then they leave. AND WE STILL GET SOME OUTSTANDING INDIVIDUALS TO REPLACE THEM AND MAINTAIN A HIGH LEVEL OF PLAY. Do they really think that now that AP is gone we will never again put a good team on the floor?
It's a valid question from ppl who don't know us from a hill of beans.
If many of us (me included) were asked about other MVC teams, we might also make snap judgements.
I see it as a sign of "there ain't anything else wrong with these Crusaders besides their mascot"!!!
The answer is Evansville. Successful program who came to the MVC and hasn't lived up to what they looked like prior. Most decisions are made in reaction to the reaction to the last decision.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 01, 2017, 04:33:40 PM
It just confounds me that in some observers eyes, when a team(Valpo in this case) loses its best player then their program will go too h--- in a hand basket in the future and will never return or remain being an outstanding and highly competive program. Our program has had many outstanding individuals over the years. Then they leave. AND WE STILL GET SOME OUTSTANDING INDIVIDUALS TO REPLACE THEM AND MAINTAIN A HIGH LEVEL OF PLAY. Do they really think that now that AP is gone we will never again put a good team on the floor?
All they know is what they know. There isn't a team in the MVC that has sustained success over time like Valpo's has. They just seem to take turns rising to the top and falling to the bottom. S. IL, Missouri State, Bradley, N. Iowa and Drake all come to mind. Even Wichita State rose from rags to riches and is still vulnerable to reversing course in their new league. None of their programs have seemed to be able to consistently sustain success over 15-20 years like a Valpo and Butler have, for example. That's why we have a nationally recognized program, and they don't.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 01, 2017, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of moving to the MVC. Then, I was assuming that the HL would remain unchanged. Since, I have come to the conclusion that most every other HL program would bail at the first opportunity, including Milwaukee, UIC, Oakland, Wright State, and Detroit. There is little or no loyalty or commitment to the HL. This is survival of the fittest. If the MVC offers we have no choice but to say yes and don't give the future of the HL another thought. The exact same way every other HL program would do to us, given the chance.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 01, 2017, 02:58:41 PM
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of moving to the MVC. Then, I was assuming that the HL would remain unchanged. Since, I have come to the conclusion that most every other HL program would bail at the first opportunity, including Milwaukee, UIC, Oakland, Wright State, and Detroit. There is little or no loyalty or commitment to the HL. This is survival of the fittest. If the MVC offers we have no choice but to say yes and don't give the future of the HL another thought. The exact same way every other HL program would do to us, given the chance.
You bring up a good point regarding loyalty.
If OU or GB or NKU left the HL would VU be scrambling for the exit too. I'd sure hope they have an escape plan because this conference losing any of the current Top 4 programs has problems imo.
I'm starting to come around to a MVC opportunity if only for the perceived stability of its member schools. This is important for our sports teams to continue to mature.
Commuter Universities can be disinterested at best when funding their sports teams OR garnering solid attendance which even we have had a hard time of late. Even with over 3,000 students land locked on our "walking" campus we have difficulty.
If not for Kampe, would OU still be ok with D2?
Guess I'd vote for heading to the MVC this late in the game. Still concerned about the medium fish in a larger pond concept. But if we don't take strong steps to keep up Coaches momentum then we are doomed to take large strides backward. Homer set the base, Bryce built nicely and now Lottich is carrying the momentum in Year 1.
Could be a great blessing for our bball team!
If the MVC offers Valpo membership, and it comes time for VU to discuss and consider conference loyalty in the present as part of a larger consideration of its acceptance, I would only hope that VU would also equally discuss and consider what transpired in 1993 in this context when making such a determination, and then make whatever decision is deemed as being acceptable.
I was not around for the old 'mid-con' days when many of the Horizon League school left us high and dry, but I've talked to a few alumni/fans at games about that incident and they still got worked up about what those schools did (old wounds still haven't fully went away).
Maybe its just me but I think there would be a bit of karma involved with moving on to the MVC if we go the invite. Not only that but there are just some schools in the HL like YSU and Cleveland State that sort of feel complacent in Basketball...
The Administration/Board has to do whats best for Valpo and not be worried about the other HL teams that would jump at the opportunity to move to the MVC if they were potentially in Valpo's shoes.
Quote from: VU2014 on May 01, 2017, 05:50:15 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 01, 2017, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of moving to the MVC. Then, I was assuming that the HL would remain unchanged. Since, I have come to the conclusion that most every other HL program would bail at the first opportunity, including Milwaukee, UIC, Oakland, Wright State, and Detroit. There is little or no loyalty or commitment to the HL. This is survival of the fittest. If the MVC offers we have no choice but to say yes and don't give the future of the HL another thought. The exact same way every other HL program would do to us, given the chance.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 01, 2017, 02:58:41 PM
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of moving to the MVC. Then, I was assuming that the HL would remain unchanged. Since, I have come to the conclusion that most every other HL program would bail at the first opportunity, including Milwaukee, UIC, Oakland, Wright State, and Detroit. There is little or no loyalty or commitment to the HL. This is survival of the fittest. If the MVC offers we have no choice but to say yes and don't give the future of the HL another thought. The exact same way every other HL program would do to us, given the chance.
You bring up a good point regarding loyalty.
If OU or GB or NKU left the HL would VU be scrambling for the exit too. I'd sure hope they have an escape plan because this conference losing any of the current Top 4 programs has problems imo.
I'm starting to come around to a MVC opportunity if only for the perceived stability of its member schools. This is important for our sports teams to continue to mature.
Commuter Universities can be disinterested at best when funding their sports teams OR garnering solid attendance which even we have had a hard time of late. Even with over 3,000 students land locked on our "walking" campus we have difficulty.
If not for Kampe, would OU still be ok with D2?
Guess I'd vote for heading to the MVC this late in the game. Still concerned about the medium fish in a larger pond concept. But if we don't take strong steps to keep up Coaches momentum then we are doomed to take large strides backward. Homer set the base, Bryce built nicely and now Lottich is carrying the momentum in Year 1.
Could be a great blessing for our bball team!
If the MVC offers Valpo membership, and it comes time for VU to discuss and consider conference loyalty in the present as part of a larger consideration of its acceptance, I would only hope that VU would also equally discuss and consider what transpired in 1993 in this context when making such a determination, and then make whatever decision is deemed as being acceptable.
I was not around for the old 'mid-con' days when many of the Horizon League school left us high and dry, but I've talked to a few alumni/fans at games about that incident and they still got worked up about what those schools did (old wounds still haven't fully went away).
Maybe its just me but I think there would be a bit of karma involved with moving on to the MVC if we go the invite. Not only that but there are just some schools in the HL like YSU and Cleveland State that sort of feel complacent in Basketball...
The Administration/Board has to do whats best for Valpo and not be worried about the other HL teams that would jump at the opportunity to move to the MVC if they were potentially in Valpo's shoes.
Oh, I'll bet. I was a student athlete for Valpo right around the time when it was going down, back when Akron and Northern Illinois were conference games. For me, it's water under the bridge, partly because we reunified with them in the HL, but I believe you when you say that there are some Valpo fans/alumni who are still peeved about that and will never get over it. I'm sure there are some on this board who post here who feel that way.
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 05:27:57 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 01, 2017, 04:33:40 PM
It just confounds me that in some observers eyes, when a team(Valpo in this case) loses its best player then their program will go too h--- in a hand basket in the future and will never return or remain being an outstanding and highly competive program. Our program has had many outstanding individuals over the years. Then they leave. AND WE STILL GET SOME OUTSTANDING INDIVIDUALS TO REPLACE THEM AND MAINTAIN A HIGH LEVEL OF PLAY. Do they really think that now that AP is gone we will never again put a good team on the floor?
All they know is what they know. There isn't a team in the MVC that has sustained success over time like Valpo's has. They just seem to take turns rising to the top and falling to the bottom. S. IL, Missouri State, Bradley, N. Iowa and Drake all come to mind. Even Wichita State rose from rags to riches and is still vulnerable to reversing course in their new league. None of their programs have seemed to be able to consistently sustain success over 15-20 years like a Valpo and Butler have, for example. That's why we have a nationally recognized program, and they don't.
B, please. UNI has been pretty damn good since 2003 with out first bid as an MVC member. Yeah, last year sucked but that happens when you play a true freshman point guard with a back up that is in a first year JUCO transfer that was brought in to be a spot player. The 2 guard role had a JR miss the year with an injury and had a red-shirt freshman and grad transfer play all of the minutes. The wing guard had an All Conference player but the back up was a true freshman. The 4 spot was a junior and then halfway through the season a redshirt freshman coming off of knee surgery the previous spring comes into the fold. The 1-3 positions had stats that were 98% produced by freshman/1st year in system gu
ys. UNI will be a 24+ win team again next year. Don't know sustained success my ass. My easy counter to that is Valpo doesn't know how to win a NCAA tournament game. Look at all of those bids, yet the complete lack of wins over the last 20 years. UNI has 7 bids over that time, multiple top 25 appearances, top 10 appearances, wins in half of our tournament bids. Over that same time Valpo has 2 bids and 0 wins in a conference where they are CLEARLY the "big dog"Now that my snark is out of the way...The answer, as pointed out, as to why MVC fans worry has been pointed out. You guys have your brown colored glasses that see a MVC champion almost yearly. That's not going to happen. We see the potential of the next Evansville. No, it's not entirely fair to use that as a comp, but it's what we have. "We don't know what we don't know". The reality is that Evansville was the bees knees in this league, with similar competition prior to joining the MVC. Jim Crews got that UE program really startioing to hum as he was there. 3 NCAA bids, including an NCAA win, in the 6 years leading up to joining the MVC. Got to the MVC and within three years they were at 13 wins. They have 1 NCAA bid in 23 years in the MVC, and that was 1999 - which is actually more recent than Valpo's most recent NCAA win FWIW. UE is almost always bottom half of the league. I think they've finished better than 9-9 in conference play just 4 or 5 times in 23 years in The Valley. Again, it's not really entirely fair to hold that against Valpo. Valpo has shown longer success than UE did. We, logically, understand this. However, the only success has been under the Drew family and Drew family recruits. Over half of the NCAA tournament bids from your program came before Y2K was a thing. 2 bids in 17 years. There is reason for concern. Maybe it's overblown, but if you don't see it or understand it, than you aren't being even remotely objective.
Let me ask this. What seeds did UNI have when those wins occurred? I have zero idea. My point is this:: Valpo may have only two wins with all those appearances but, we never had higher than a 13 seed.
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 01, 2017, 08:28:27 PM
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 05:27:57 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 01, 2017, 04:33:40 PM
It just confounds me that in some observers eyes, when a team(Valpo in this case) loses its best player then their program will go too h--- in a hand basket in the future and will never return or remain being an outstanding and highly competive program. Our program has had many outstanding individuals over the years. Then they leave. AND WE STILL GET SOME OUTSTANDING INDIVIDUALS TO REPLACE THEM AND MAINTAIN A HIGH LEVEL OF PLAY. Do they really think that now that AP is gone we will never again put a good team on the floor?
All they know is what they know. There isn't a team in the MVC that has sustained success over time like Valpo's has. They just seem to take turns rising to the top and falling to the bottom. S. IL, Missouri State, Bradley, N. Iowa and Drake all come to mind. Even Wichita State rose from rags to riches and is still vulnerable to reversing course in their new league. None of their programs have seemed to be able to consistently sustain success over 15-20 years like a Valpo and Butler have, for example. That's why we have a nationally recognized program, and they don't.
B, please. UNI has been pretty damn good since 2003 with out first bid as an MVC member. Yeah, last year sucked but that happens when you play a true freshman point guard with a back up that is in a first year JUCO transfer that was brought in to be a spot player. The 2 guard role had a JR miss the year with an injury and had a red-shirt freshman and grad transfer play all of the minutes. The wing guard had an All Conference player but the back up was a true freshman. The 4 spot was a junior and then halfway through the season a redshirt freshman coming off of knee surgery the previous spring comes into the fold. The 1-3 positions had stats that were 98% produced by freshman/1st year in system guys. UNI will be a 24+ win team again next year. Don't know sustained success my ass. My easy counter to that is Valpo doesn't know how to win a NCAA tournament game. Look at all of those bids, yet the complete lack of wins over the last 20 years. UNI has 7 bids over that time, multiple top 25 appearances, top 10 appearances, wins in half of our tournament bids. Over that same time Valpo has 2 bids and 0 wins in a conference where they are CLEARLY the "big dog"
Now that my snark is out of the way...
The answer, as pointed out, as to why MVC fans worry has been pointed out. You guys have your brown colored glasses that see a MVC champion almost yearly. That's not going to happen. We see the potential of the next Evansville. No, it's not entirely fair to use that as a comp, but it's what we have. "We don't know what we don't know". The reality is that Evansville was the bees knees in this league, with similar competition prior to joining the MVC. Jim Crews got that UE program really startioing to hum as he was there. 3 NCAA bids, including an NCAA win, in the 6 years leading up to joining the MVC. Got to the MVC and within three years they were at 13 wins. They have 1 NCAA bid in 23 years in the MVC, and that was 1999 - which is actually more recent than Valpo's most recent NCAA win FWIW. UE is almost always bottom half of the league. I think they've finished better than 9-9 in conference play just 4 or 5 times in 23 years in The Valley.
Again, it's not really entirely fair to hold that against Valpo. Valpo has shown longer success than UE did. We, logically, understand this. However, the only success has been under the Drew family and Drew family recruits. Over half of the NCAA tournament bids from your program came before Y2K was a thing. 2 bids in 17 years. There is reason for concern. Maybe it's overblown, but if you don't see it or understand it, than you aren't being even remotely objective.
Point taken, some of us understand that winning only 2 NCAA Tournament games in 20-years does not make a Mid Major powerhouse.
I have NOT looked at any other forums because I only care about VU. UNI, you are likely seeing the result of my compatriots looking at the utter disrespect on MVC forums and others, it might get my panties in a twist too.
Clearly most of us respect The Valley or else I wouldn't have seen my guys post non-stop about getting into the MVC in season before all this drama with WSU finalized.
I personally get that you guys have been good for a long time as a conference...but recent records show we ball MVC quality and then some.
I'm starting to come around to joining the MVC (possibly) and your post makes me want to kick these rivalries into high gear!!!!! Could be a fun 2017/18!
I posted this last week. Thought I'd share it again. I'm really not worried about being able to compete in the MVC. I've seen projections/predictions that Missouri State is the preseason favorite next season. We've beat the all 3 times we've faced them in the last 5 years including last year at their place.
QuoteTo be honest I'm not worried at all about being able to compete in the MVC. The Valpo teams of the last 7-8 years other then (Alec's Freshman year but team still had fight in it 18-15 (9-7)) would be a legit contender to finish with the Top 3-4-5 seeds every single year in the MVC.
Illinois State:
IL St was really good last year and good under Dan Muller but they were not unbeatable (I'd actually pick Valpo to beat IL St most Muller's teams (not this past seasons though, although we'd certainly have a chance to beat them). IL St just graduated 2 of their 3 best players this year and their projected best player MiKyle McIntosh is transferring (grad transfer, he should stay, imo). They will not be the same team next season, but Dan Muller is a great coach and they should continue to be a strong program. We haven't played in the the last 15 years.
University of Northern Iowa:
UNI is definitely a very good MidMajor program and should be good for the foreseeable future. They had a down year last year. Only time we played UNI in the last 15 years was back in the 04'-05' season (before my time). Looks like they spanked us at the ARC 67-49. http://www.espn.com/ncb/conversation/_/gameId/243652674
Loyola:
Loyola hasn't been great but they have really put together good recruiting classes and they are my "sleeper" team in the MVC. They will surprise people.
Obviously we've played Loyola quite a bit because they were a Conference Rival in the HL. 7-5 (they swept us that first year we were in the HL back in 07-08)
Wichita State
No Wichita State next year.
Indiana State:
-We've beaten Indiana State (convincingly this year). Beat them last year too. We are 5-1 against Indiana State since the (01-02) season.
-Then we played them again back in (04-05) and we played them at their place on the road and the game went to OT 70-68 IN St Win. http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/243440282
-(03-04) We beat IN St 59-53 at home. http://www.espn.com/ncb/boxscore/_/gameId/233422674
-(02-03) We beat IN St 81-56 at home. http://www.espn.com/ncb/boxscore/_/gameId/223302674
-(01-02) We beat IN St 71-54 away. http://www.espn.com/ncb/conversation/_/gameId/213250282
Southern Illinois:
Not worried about being able to compete with Southern Illinois either. They lost the Wright State this year. Don't get me wrong they are a good program but this is not the SIU of 10 years ago. They've had some below .500 years. SIU finished 3rd in the MVC this year 17-16 (9-9). Not a great year for the MVC. SIU has a great history and I'm sure they have the potential to get back to being a very good MidMajor team again. We have not played SIU for over 15 years.
Missouri State:
We've played Missouri State 3 times in the last 5 years (1-home and 2-away) and we've beaten them all 3 times.
-(16-17) Valpo beat MSU 84-81 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400918177
-(15-16) Valpo beat MSU 74-45 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400818868
-(12-13) Valpo beat MSU 62-54 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/323502623
Bradley:
Bradley has refused to schedule Valpo for a while. But they've fallen on some hard times, but I think Brian Wardle was a good hire for them. I think they'll be competitive again.
Evansville:
E-Ville is a solid program that had a tough year last year. The only time I remember us playing them in my time as a Valpo Fan was Alec's Freshman year (our "reloading" year but had a great freshman recruiting class). Of course they wouldn't schedule a home and home with us. They schedule us the year after the Broekhoff's great class graduated. It was an away game: they won 100-92.
http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400507075
-Valpo beat E-ville 75-67 back in (07-08) http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/273452674
-E-ville beat Valpo 69-64 back in (06-07) http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/263390339
Drake:
Not worried about competing with Drake either.
-We played them last 2014-15 (an away game for us) and we beat them 66-46. Wouldn't schedule a Home & Home. http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400586327
Murray State:
-(14-15) Valpo beat Murray St 91-58 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400596330
-(13-14) Valpo beat Murray St 77-74 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/400503059
-(12-13) Valpo beat Murray St 66-64 http://www.espn.com/ncb/recap/_/gameId/323640093
Those were the only games I saw that we played against Valpo in the last 15 years. Murray State is another really strong MidMajor program with history.
I don't want to sound cocky but I really think Valpo can be a very competitive team in the MVC. I also think we'd likely finish in the top half of the MVC next next year and compete competitively with any other school in the conference.
Well I can fully say the trash talking is already WAY better in the MVC. Man I hope we get in. I could get used to this back and forth for an entire conference season.
I was waiting for the perpetually offended Butler fan to chime in.
Amen. That says a lot in itself. We always hear crickets on the other boards. A little now and then from Oakland and Wright State. But you just don't have the natural history and natural rivalries we can find in the MVC.
Valpo's Day of Giving is coming up at the end of the week. Seems a perfect time to make an announcement!
I have to say UNIFTW is correct here about their success. He is correct, and we sometimes like to drink the brown and gold koolaid, and sometimes we need to be cautious of what we are drinking. UNI has had more success and more sustained success than Valpo . they have an excellent coach and a fairly passionate fan base. If you stay out of the rough parts of Waterloo and stay in Cedar Falls, you will enjoy going to a game there. Remember, recently they made the Sweet 16 by knocking off number one ranked Kansas..
OTOH, I cannot figure out why Drake is consistently bad...
I have to say, UNIFTW is a cool dude. welcome to the board.
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 01, 2017, 08:28:27 PM
Quote from: wh on May 01, 2017, 05:27:57 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 01, 2017, 04:33:40 PM
It just confounds me that in some observers eyes, when a team(Valpo in this case) loses its best player then their program will go too h--- in a hand basket in the future and will never return or remain being an outstanding and highly competive program. Our program has had many outstanding individuals over the years. Then they leave. AND WE STILL GET SOME OUTSTANDING INDIVIDUALS TO REPLACE THEM AND MAINTAIN A HIGH LEVEL OF PLAY. Do they really think that now that AP is gone we will never again put a good team on the floor?
All they know is what they know. There isn't a team in the MVC that has sustained success over time like Valpo's has. They just seem to take turns rising to the top and falling to the bottom. S. IL, Missouri State, Bradley, N. Iowa and Drake all come to mind. Even Wichita State rose from rags to riches and is still vulnerable to reversing course in their new league. None of their programs have seemed to be able to consistently sustain success over 15-20 years like a Valpo and Butler have, for example. That's why we have a nationally recognized program, and they don't.
B, please. UNI has been pretty damn good since 2003 with out first bid as an MVC member. Yeah, last year sucked but that happens when you play a true freshman point guard with a back up that is in a first year JUCO transfer that was brought in to be a spot player. The 2 guard role had a JR miss the year with an injury and had a red-shirt freshman and grad transfer play all of the minutes. The wing guard had an All Conference player but the back up was a true freshman. The 4 spot was a junior and then halfway through the season a redshirt freshman coming off of knee surgery the previous spring comes into the fold. The 1-3 positions had stats that were 98% produced by freshman/1st year in system guys. UNI will be a 24+ win team again next year. Don't know sustained success my ass. My easy counter to that is Valpo doesn't know how to win a NCAA tournament game. Look at all of those bids, yet the complete lack of wins over the last 20 years. UNI has 7 bids over that time, multiple top 25 appearances, top 10 appearances, wins in half of our tournament bids. Over that same time Valpo has 2 bids and 0 wins in a conference where they are CLEARLY the "big dog"
Now that my snark is out of the way...
The answer, as pointed out, as to why MVC fans worry has been pointed out. You guys have your brown colored glasses that see a MVC champion almost yearly. That's not going to happen. We see the potential of the next Evansville. No, it's not entirely fair to use that as a comp, but it's what we have. "We don't know what we don't know". The reality is that Evansville was the bees knees in this league, with similar competition prior to joining the MVC. Jim Crews got that UE program really startioing to hum as he was there. 3 NCAA bids, including an NCAA win, in the 6 years leading up to joining the MVC. Got to the MVC and within three years they were at 13 wins. They have 1 NCAA bid in 23 years in the MVC, and that was 1999 - which is actually more recent than Valpo's most recent NCAA win FWIW. UE is almost always bottom half of the league. I think they've finished better than 9-9 in conference play just 4 or 5 times in 23 years in The Valley.
Again, it's not really entirely fair to hold that against Valpo. Valpo has shown longer success than UE did. We, logically, understand this. However, the only success has been under the Drew family and Drew family recruits. Over half of the NCAA tournament bids from your program came before Y2K was a thing. 2 bids in 17 years. There is reason for concern. Maybe it's overblown, but if you don't see it or understand it, than you aren't being even remotely objective.
You are right about UNI's success. They are really the only MVC team left that can make that claim against us. However, we have 5 bids in the last 17 years, not just 2 (2000, 2002, 2004, 2013, and 2015). Also, I seem to remember the HL schools saying the same exact thing to us, that we won't win on a consistent basis. All we have done is win 5 of the last 6 regular season titles, and finishing 4th or better in every year but 1, in our 10 seasons. The success is not the Drew's alone, but every player that came to Valpo. The Drew's were great recruiters, but very average in-game coaches. Lottich has shown that he can recruit at their level already, and is a better in-game coach. I don't feel bad saying that we will be top 4 in the MVC on a yearly basis.
Because i am bored.
Put yourself in the shoes of the mvc coaches. What they really want is a team that is going to win a lot of non-con games and then become fodder during conference season so the existing schools can go to the tourney. They may not want a top tier team like we all think. Perhaps they want schools with potential but not too much potential.
If you get a chance, give this podcast a listen. Talks about MVC expansion with insiders and a Terre Haute beat reporter.
The host of the Podcast seems hesitant on Valpo. Again he seems to point to Evansville... what a terrible comparison. Doesn't seem to like Omaha (nor do I). Seems hesitant on UWM. He seems to like he wants to stay at 10.
https://twitter.com/KirkWessler/status/859232684714885120
http://podcasts.pjstar.com/2017/sportswriters-63-valley-reconstruction/t=7:34.541
"First Creighton left the Missouri Valley Conference. Then Wichita State. Now, the league is trying to figure out its next move. Move back to 10 teams? Expand to 11 or 12? And which schools would be the best basketball fit for what's left of the Valley? Kirk Wessler discusses the issues with Harry Schroeder of valleyhoops.net and Todd Golden of the Terre Haute Tribune-Star."
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 01, 2017, 10:40:41 PM
I have to say UNIFTW is correct here about their success. He is correct, and we sometimes like to drink the brown and gold koolaid, and sometimes we need to be cautious of what we are drinking. UNI has had more success and more sustained success than Valpo . they have an excellent coach and a fairly passionate fan base. If you stay out of the rough parts of Waterloo and stay in Cedar Falls, you will enjoy going to a game there. Remember, recently they made the Sweet 16 by knocking off number one ranked Kansas..
OTOH, I cannot figure out why Drake is consistently bad...
I have to say, UNIFTW is a cool dude. welcome to the board.
Drake is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Everything about their program/university should scream "We have every chance to be equal to Creighton". Instead, it screams "We don't exist on our own campus 99% of the time". They found lightning in a bottle in 2008, but outside of that they've been horrendous since the 1960s. They are just a completely incompetent athletic department. I would just suggest going and finding a disucssion on MVCFans about it. There have been many over the last few years. I'm not going to hash it out here.
Bradley has also been bad, but they aren't for a lack of trying. They just haven't "hit" on a coach. They pay well. The fund well. They have a fan base that WANTS to be good (Drake doesn't have a fan base, but the 2 dozen or so they have want to be good but tough to pressure the AD when you have 24 fans). They've just struck out with coaches. I see people bash on Wardle (mostly UWM people) but he seems to have things headed the right way down there. His first year he had like 12 freshman and 1 senior on the roster. He completely gutted the program and started with trying to pour a new foundation. Even this past year he had 12 freshman and sophomores. No seniors and 2 juniors. I'm pretty sure only one of the juniors saw significant minutes. He took over a program that had a 7 win season and a 9 win season in the last 4 before he got there - 9 the year right before. His first year was 5-24 but, as I said, it was all freshman. This year he got to 13-20 and actually tied for 6th in conference but lost the tie breaker so they ended up in the PIG again. They won more conference games last year than the 2 previous combined. Bradley is a "sleeping giant" just waiting to get woke back up. If there is one MVC program that has the potential to be a high level A10/Big East type team, it's them.
As for UNI's seeds with wins - 10, 9, 5.
I like friendly smack. Yes, I get snarky but it's mostly fun. I also don't get into "smack fights" without having a large sample of numbers behind me. I want Valpo and Murray to come in and be top level teams. We can't afford to add Evansville or Loyola again. We need to add UNI and last years Illinois State. The comps to "When UNI was added people hated it and look what happened". Yeah, true. It also took UNI 11 years to not be complete and utter dog crap. There were times in the late 90s we were playing in our football dome (which can/has held 22k+ for basketball) and there would be less than 800 people at the game - I know people that went and would spend the game counting. Thankfully we got McDermott to come back to his Alma mater in 2001, and bring Ben Jacobson along. Starting in 2003 we became what we are. We joined the MVC in 1992. The conference climate has changed since then. The NCAA landscape has changed since then. We don't have the ability to wait a decade for an addition to pay off. It's part of what pissed people off about Loyola. Maybe they'll be great in 2022. We shouldn't have been planning for 2022 in 2013. Maybe UNO is going to be great in 2027. We don't have the luxery of waiting for that right now. We need name programs that can/do win.
No, we don't want a team that wins a ton in OOC and then falters in conference play. That's Evansville. I've discussed it here, but Evansville is mostly universally hated for that. The term "Evansvilling" and "getting Evansvilled" is a thing in the MVC world, and it's not a good thing.
We don't want that. The coaches don't want that. The ADs don't want that. This league cant' continue to pay coaches 500k+ (1 million per year in UNI's case) if we are a one bid league permanently. That math doesn't work out.
what's sad is that Evansville used to be good - they used to kick Valpo's butt on a regular basis. And their fan base was very loyal, at least back in the 80's and early 90's.
Living in the Des Moines area, I would like to see Drake do better - I like the campus and neighborhood. The Drake Diner also is a excellent place to get that cake shake.
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 02, 2017, 10:43:40 AM
what's sad is that Evansville used to be good - they used to kick Valpo's butt on a regular basis. And their fan base was very loyal, at least back in the 80's and early 90's.
Living in the Des Moines area, I would like to see Drake do better - I like the campus and neighborhood. The Drake Diner also is a excellent place to get that cake shake.
Sure did, when Jerry Sloan played for them!!
Wow just within the last half hour since the Rumor of Valpo being the possible only 10th team its has been mixed with either really positive or really negative response from MVC fans on Twitter (not much in between).
Saw someone say, "this feels like Loyola". A bit of an idiotic response on many different level... We are a much better Basketball program then Loyola was coming into MVC and the Loyola invite was made because of Market and not because of basketball reasons.
Valpo will not be able to replace Wichita State and nor do expect to fill that void. We will be a very strong basketball addition but the sooner the MVC fans realize we will not be able to replace the better it will be for all parties.
I am thinking Brad Leaf and Marty Simmons.
Trivia - who was the Valpo player who transferred from Evansville?
The UNI's fan vendetta against all things Evansville is certainly over the top, and appears more personal than anything.
I am not going to defend everything because there is quite a bit of validity to it, but it can be stated without being a prick about it.
I come to this board to see how the thoughts are of Valpo fans joining the Valley, not subject you guys to a UNI-UE pissing match.
For the last decade or so, UNI has had a solid program, and better than UE. No question. The thing about basketball history though, you can draw a line anywhere. Since I am an old guy, I will go back much farther..from the 50's through 2000, UE was clearly the better program that entire time. Both schools were in the old college division, where UE won (5) national titles, and UNI I believe won..zero. Despite having the entire program wiped out by a tragic plane crash in '77, UE was still managed to be the stronger program through the 80's and 90's. Not to mention much stronger support, with many seasons averaging well over 10K. Something I don't think UNI has ever done.
Yes, our last decade under Simmons has been mediocre, and yours under Jacobson has been very solid. Despite the suckitude, we have still had a better decade than Bradley, Drake, Missouri State, Loyola, SIU. I don't hang my hat on that, and it is certainly not anything to be proud of, but it does make me question why you always throw us to the bottom first. You act like we are all happy and content, which is BS. We have lost over half of our fans since Marty has been here.
I will agree with you on the scheduling, although that should really be called Simmon-sing. There is no question he schedules to save his rear, which is BS, and despised by most of our fans. We know we paid dearly for it last year. For the Valpo fans, that phrase was started by Wichita fans after we swept the regular season from them the year they ended up in the final four. They also created a brand for flopping and dropping which is tied to another school in our league, but I won't bring that one up..........
Wichita was able to distance itself from the rest of the league. I just don't see anyone else close to that point. Our basketball budget is identical to UNI's, both near the top of the league. Our facilities have all been upgraded to among the best in the league, and we play in the nicest arena in the league...not to mention our fanbase and market is larger. You smoke us in the coaching department, and as long as Simmons and Jacobson are in place, you will continue to do so. I hope Jacobson retires there, and any advise you have in helping us rid ourselves of Marty would certainly be welcome, instead of snarky attacks.
Some mention on this board that Evansville used to be pretty good. Probably thinking of the Jim Crews teams of the 1980s-1990s era.
I just wanted to point out that nobody -- and I mean nobody -- had the kind of success that Evansville had for about 20 years back when there were two divisions of college basketball -- university and college divisions.
Here is just a sample of the win-loss records Evansville compiled from the late 50s to the early 70s: 20-6, 20-8, 23-4, 21-6, 25-4, 21-6, 29-0, and 26-3. Not to mention three (or four, I can't recall) national championships.
My dad and I went to multiple VU-Evansville games. We hardly ever won, although we did knock off the Aces 83-73 in 1966 in the greatest sporting event I have ever seen (Evansville came in with a 25-game winning streak).
Just wanted to give Evansville the recognition they deserve.
Paul
Two things our new visitors all seem to have in common is passion for their programs and a desire to elevate the profile of their league. They also come armed with facts and stats. In other words, they sound a lot like us. I could get used to this. ;)
Quote from: 78crusader on May 02, 2017, 12:14:18 PM
Some mention on this board that Evansville used to be pretty good. Probably thinking of the Jim Crews teams of the 1980s-1990s era.
I just wanted to point out that nobody -- and I mean nobody -- had the kind of success that Evansville had for about 20 years back when there were two divisions of college basketball -- university and college divisions.
Here is just a sample of the win-loss records Evansville compiled from the late 50s to the early 70s: 20-6, 20-8, 23-4, 21-6, 25-4, 21-6, 29-0, and 26-3. Not to mention three (or four, I can't recall) national championships.
My dad and I went to multiple VU-Evansville games. We hardly ever won, although we did knock off the Aces 83-73 in 1966 in the greatest sporting event I have ever seen (Evansville came in with a 25-game winning streak).
Just wanted to give Evansville the recognition they deserve.
Paul
I was at that game :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: -- E'ville was incredible that year. Jerry Sloan and Larry Humes (now in the Indiana Basketball HOF) on the same floor at the same time!! Those were ICC conference games. I can still visualize Tom Smith dribbling around and through both those two guys at the close of the game with us in the lead.
LARRY HUMES
Indiana's Mr. Basketball in 1962 at Madison ... led Madison to a four-year record of 97 wins and 5 losses ... state finalists in 1962 ... team captain and MVP of Indiana-Kentucky all-star game that year ... two-time all-American at Evansville College ... led the Purple Aces to national championships those years, '64 and '65 ... three-time MVP of Indiana Collegiate Conference ... three-time NCAA all-tourney selection ... Evansville's all-time leading scorer.Indiana State and Ball State were also in the ICC along with Butler, DePauw and St. Joe's.
BTW, we then went down there in 67 and beat them 71-61. Dick Jones, Vern Curtis and Ken Rakow led that team.
The Evansville alums and people I have worked with and known are generally very friendly and have a real passion for basketball. Same with UNI. Drake I can't figure because I just don't know many Drake hoop fans - their have a love of pharmacy but not basketball. Where I live, there are many Iowa Hawkeye fans (most have no affiliation with the school, BTW) who tend to be very arrogant, annoying and out of touch of how mediocre their football team is. The Iowa alums are cool, it's the non alumni fans that are a different breed.
I really hope we get to go to the MVC - I like these guys.
Quote from: vu72 on May 01, 2017, 08:36:33 PM
Let me ask this. What seeds did UNI have when those wins occurred? I have zero idea. My point is this:: Valpo may have only two wins with all those appearances but, we never had higher than a 13 seed.
Not so sure about this.
1996 14 seed
1997 12 seed
1998 13 seed
1999 15 seed
2000 16 seed
2002 13 seed
2004 15 seed
2013 14 seed
2015 13 seed
So of our 9 NCAA bids, five have come with a lower than 13 seed.
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 02, 2017, 11:42:05 AMTrivia - who was the Valpo player who transferred from Evansville?
I'm stumped. What era?
After they went Division 1 and PRE ARC
I guess I haven't been a member long enough to be in the cool club that can quote, but I will let a Valpo fan answer the question about what UE player transfered to Valpo.
I will just say I hope he worked out better for you than Bryan Bouchie did for us. I will cut him some slack as I am sure he isn't the first person who barfed at McDonalds though.
Quote from: covufan on May 02, 2017, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 01, 2017, 08:36:33 PM
Let me ask this. What seeds did UNI have when those wins occurred? I have zero idea. My point is this:: Valpo may have only two wins with all those appearances but, we never had higher than a 13 seed.
Not so sure about this.
1996 14 seed
1997 12 seed
1998 13 seed
1999 15 seed
2000 16 seed
2002 13 seed
2004 15 seed
2013 14 seed
2015 13 seed
So of our 9 NCAA bids, five have come with a lower than 13 seed.
Guys seedings are a joke. They literally mean nothing. The NCAA doesn't even take them seriously. They had Minnesota as a 5-seed :rotfl: and Middle Tennessee as a 12-seed. The NCAA just tries to pin interesting match-ups together like Vandy vs Northwestern, etc.
NCAA selection committee also frequently shows the middle finger to mid-majors in terms of match-ups and seeding. Example: When they pinned Wichita State vs Kentucky that year..
Quote from: covufan on May 02, 2017, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 01, 2017, 08:36:33 PM
Let me ask this. What seeds did UNI have when those wins occurred? I have zero idea. My point is this:: Valpo may have only two wins with all those appearances but, we never had higher than a 13 seed.
Not so sure about this.
1996 14 seed
1997 12 seed
1998 13 seed
1999 15 seed
2000 16 seed
2002 13 seed
2004 15 seed
2013 14 seed
2015 13 seed
So of our 9 NCAA bids, five have come with a lower than 13 seed.
So I wrong about never higher than a 13. My point is that we have been criticized for not winning NCAA tourney games. Coming out of the Mid-Con we were given a gift to be a 12. Recently the Horizon has been in the same boat. The odds of winning from the 13-15 seed are very very low. When we did win in 98 we did so from the 13 slot but it is really hard to do. By moving to a better conference, we face a tougher task but if accomplished would more than likely produce a better seed.
Quote from: VU2014 on May 02, 2017, 01:09:41 PM
Quote from: covufan on May 02, 2017, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: vu72 on May 01, 2017, 08:36:33 PM
Let me ask this. What seeds did UNI have when those wins occurred? I have zero idea. My point is this:: Valpo may have only two wins with all those appearances but, we never had higher than a 13 seed.
Not so sure about this.
1996 14 seed
1997 12 seed
1998 13 seed
1999 15 seed
2000 16 seed
2002 13 seed
2004 15 seed
2013 14 seed
2015 13 seed
So of our 9 NCAA bids, five have come with a lower than 13 seed.
Guys seedings are a joke. They literally mean nothing. The NCAA doesn't even take them seriously. They had Minnesota as a 5-seed :rotfl: and Middle Tennessee as a 12-seed. The NCAA just tries to pin interesting match-ups together like Vandy vs Northwestern, etc.
NCAA selection committee also frequently shows the middle finger to mid-majors in terms of match-ups and seeding. Example: When they pinned Wichita State vs Kentucky that year..
They're not a joke to Mid Majors. The P5 top 12 are legit most years.
Quote from: covufan on May 02, 2017, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 02, 2017, 11:42:05 AMTrivia - who was the Valpo player who transferred from Evansville?
I'm stumped. What era?
The only Valpo/Evansville transfer I knew was Bryan Bouchie heading south after 07-08. Same year Haanpaa turned pro. That off-season set us back at least 2 years. 08-09 was going to be a step back without Huff, but losing those two as well doomed us to a disaster.
Don't know of anyone going the other way off hand.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The answer - Randy Okrzesik. Actually he was pretty good for some weak Valpo teams
I've been sort of monitoring the vibes of the MVC fan bases on twitter and it seems that the Evansville fans are much more supporting of Valpo joining the conference then Indiana State fans... Not sure why that might be. Indiana St fans I'd say (a rough guess) are 50/50 or 60/40 but a sizable amount (40-50%) seem not thrilled at Valpo joining the conference. The Evansville fans seem way more excited for Valpo potentially joining the Conference.
Anyone know of reason why this may be? My only guess is the Public to Private ratio or maybe the Indiana State fans have a superiority complex and think they are better then Valpo (recent history says they aren't).
How heated was the Valpo vs Indiana State rivalry back in the day? Maybe they want to be "Top Dog" from the State of Indiana in the MVC or something. I don't know, just thought it was interesting.
I think the difference might be as simple as UE beat us the last time we played them a few years back, while we hammered ISU at the ARC last year and beat them in Terre Haute the previous season.
Valpo and Evansville have played each other 83 times, the third most by an opponent, behind Butler (103) and soon to be defunct St. Joseph's (87). It was a big rivalry for a while - both teams went Division 1 during the 1977-78 season. Evansville took the move up more successfully early and pretty much kicked our butts regularly.
The public/private split is only a thing because of the :censored: privates.
They have this sense of entitlement and are scared of anything that might challenge them or cause change. It's why they've been left in the damn dust by the public schools in the conference. Check out SIU beat writer, Todd Heffernan, on twitter from this evening. He laid out his stupid the split is and how dumb it is for the privates to team up like they do to prevent public schools in.
Basically for the MVC NCAA bids over the last 10 years in the 4 sports all teams play (MVB WBB VB and SB) there have been 28 NCAA bids. He public schools have 26 of them.
It's about time the damn private schools wake the hell up and cut the :censored: that they pull.
Also, rofl at the UE fan earlier. "Oh UNIFTW is a prick. Everything he said is factually correct and we've been a massive boat anchor on the conference in terms of any kind of basketball success (or any other sport) but let's quickly deflect that by saying that he is mean and then talk about basketball success from 6 freaking decades ago"
Are you f-inf kidding me? You want to know who brags about being good in the 1950s and 1960s, especially at the small school level? Schools that have no history since then. Schools that have nothing recent to hang their hat on.
Great UE spends only like 16k less on basketball than UNI at like 2.99m each. What the hell are you spending it on? You have, strongly rumored, the lowest paid coach in the league. Rumors have him at like 250k. UNI has the highest paid coach in the Valley at 1 million (all 100% paid by private donations). So you have, essentially an extra 750k to spend on that 2.99 million. Where's it going? Rent for your building? That's like 15k a night gone. Recruiting? Your program loves Euros so maybe that's it. What in the living hell are you spending 2.99 million on and yet have an average finish of like 6th over the last decade? Talk of all of this tradition from 6 decades ago and how bad UNI was at basketball, yet the school that drew less than a thousand fans a game less than 20 years ago has now accomplished more in the last 14 years than you have since JFK was killed. Brag about your attendance? Your attendance is the biggest farce I've seen. I watch UE games. That place is easily 70-80% empty yet claims of 10k fans are made. GMAFB.
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 02, 2017, 10:19:36 PM
The public/private split is only a thing because of the :censored: privates.
They have this sense of entitlement and are scared of anything that might challenge them or cause change. It's why they've been left in the damn dust by the public schools in the conference. Check out SIU beat writer, Todd Heffernan, on twitter from this evening. He laid out his stupid the split is and how dumb it is for the privates to team up like they do to prevent public schools in.
Basically for the MVC NCAA bids over the last 10 years in the 4 sports all teams play (MVB WBB VB and SB) there have been 28 NCAA bids. He public schools have 26 of them.
It's about time the damn private schools wake the hell up and cut the :censored: that they pull.
Also, rofl at the UE fan earlier. "Oh UNIFTW is a prick. Everything he said is factually correct and we've been a massive boat anchor on the conference in terms of any kind of basketball success (or any other sport) but let's quickly deflect that by saying that he is mean and then talk about basketball success from 6 freaking decades ago"
Are you f-inf kidding me? You want to know who brags about being good in the 1950s and 1960s, especially at the small school level? Schools that have no history since then. Schools that have nothing recent to hang their hat on.
Great UE spends only like 16k less on basketball than UNI at like 2.99m each. What the hell are you spending it on? You have, strongly rumored, the lowest paid coach in the league. Rumors have him at like 250k. UNI has the highest paid coach in the Valley at 1 million (all 100% paid by private donations). So you have, essentially an extra 750k to spend on that 2.99 million. Where's it going? Rent for your building? That's like 15k a night gone. Recruiting? Your program loves Euros so maybe that's it. What in the living hell are you spending 2.99 million on and yet have an average finish of like 6th over the last decade? Talk of all of this tradition from 6 decades ago and how bad UNI was at basketball, yet the school that drew less than a thousand fans a game less than 20 years ago has now accomplished more in the last 14 years than you have since JFK was killed. Brag about your attendance? Your attendance is the biggest farce I've seen. I watch UE games. That place is easily 70-80% empty yet claims of 10k fans are made. GMAFB.
Glad the UNI-UE debate has entered the Valpo board ... now I don't have to use Google to find it. On a side note, the Ford Center in Evansville is a great facility. Not only do they serve beer, but a full bar is available. A+ in my opinion.
I am loving this MVC fan banter. I really hope that we get in, so I can continue this fun :)
Quote from: 78crusader on May 02, 2017, 12:14:18 PM
Some mention on this board that Evansville used to be pretty good. Probably thinking of the Jim Crews teams of the 1980s-1990s era.
I just wanted to point out that nobody -- and I mean nobody -- had the kind of success that Evansville had for about 20 years back when there were two divisions of college basketball -- university and college divisions.
Here is just a sample of the win-loss records Evansville compiled from the late 50s to the early 70s: 20-6, 20-8, 23-4, 21-6, 25-4, 21-6, 29-0, and 26-3. Not to mention three (or four, I can't recall) national championships.
My dad and I went to multiple VU-Evansville games. We hardly ever won, although we did knock off the Aces 83-73 in 1966 in the greatest sporting event I have ever seen (Evansville came in with a 25-game winning streak).
Just wanted to give Evansville the recognition they deserve.
Paul
The U of E fans seem to wear their emotions on their sleeves. Those sleeves they had on their uniforms long before other teams wore them--such as the NBA Bulls.
Quote from: bbtds on May 03, 2017, 05:00:38 AM
Quote from: 78crusader on May 02, 2017, 12:14:18 PM
Some mention on this board that Evansville used to be pretty good. Probably thinking of the Jim Crews teams of the 1980s-1990s era.
I just wanted to point out that nobody -- and I mean nobody -- had the kind of success that Evansville had for about 20 years back when there were two divisions of college basketball -- university and college divisions. http://www.facebook.com/ValpoFanZone
Here is just a sample of the win-loss records Evansville compiled from the late 50s to the early 70s: 20-6, 20-8, 23-4, 21-6, 25-4, 21-6, 29-0, and 26-3. Not to mention three (or four, I can't recall) national championships.
My dad and I went to multiple VU-Evansville games. We hardly ever won, although we did knock off the Aces 83-73 in 1966 in the greatest sporting event I have ever seen (Evansville came in with a 25-game winning streak).
Just wanted to give Evansville the recognition they deserve.
Paul
The U of E fans seem to wear their emotions on their sleeves. Those sleeves they had on their uniforms long before other teams wore them--such as the NBA Bulls.
Sleeves? Heck, I remember Evansville not for sleeves but for the floor length robes they wore during warmups.
Quote from: vu72 on May 03, 2017, 06:10:52 AM
Quote from: bbtds on May 03, 2017, 05:00:38 AM
Quote from: 78crusader on May 02, 2017, 12:14:18 PM
Some mention on this board that Evansville used to be pretty good. Probably thinking of the Jim Crews teams of the 1980s-1990s era.
I just wanted to point out that nobody -- and I mean nobody -- had the kind of success that Evansville had for about 20 years back when there were two divisions of college basketball -- university and college divisions. http://www.facebook.com/ValpoFanZone
Here is just a sample of the win-loss records Evansville compiled from the late 50s to the early 70s: 20-6, 20-8, 23-4, 21-6, 25-4, 21-6, 29-0, and 26-3. Not to mention three (or four, I can't recall) national championships.
My dad and I went to multiple VU-Evansville games. We hardly ever won, although we did knock off the Aces 83-73 in 1966 in the greatest sporting event I have ever seen (Evansville came in with a 25-game winning streak).
Just wanted to give Evansville the recognition they deserve.
Paul
The U of E fans seem to wear their emotions on their sleeves. Those sleeves they had on their uniforms long before other teams wore them--such as the NBA Bulls.
Sleeves? Heck, I remember Evansville not for sleeves but for the floor length robes they wore during warmups.
That's because when they sent them to the showers some of those visitor locker rooms were pretty cold. ;D
Quote from: valpotx on May 03, 2017, 12:49:05 AMI am loving this MVC fan banter. I really hope that we get in, so I can continue this fun :)
Me too, I don't think I will hate any of the fans in the mvc as much as my distaste for Oakland.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 03, 2017, 08:54:56 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 03, 2017, 12:49:05 AMI am loving this MVC fan banter. I really hope that we get in, so I can continue this fun :)
Me too, I don't think I will hate any of the fans in the mvc as much as my distaste for Oakland.
Some guy over there was wondering why we would leave as The Horizon was a better academic conference!!!!! :rotfl:
Mark Adams has updated and amended his information. He still claims sources indicate Valpo as the 10th member of the MVC, but he now says additional sources suggest other teams could be added later:
"Other invitations could come later after the addition of a 10th member as per other school and conference sources."
Quote from: valpopal on May 03, 2017, 09:19:00 AMMark Adams has updated and amended his information. He still claims sources indicate Valpo as the 10th member of the MVC, but he now says additional sources suggest other teams could be added later: "Other invitations could come later after the addition of a 10th member as per other school and conference sources."
I hope other "invitations" are UWM and Murray St while "later" means next week.
^^I like this post^^ As much as I don't care for PantherU and would love to hit the unfollow button...I do like going to watch a game in Milwaukee every year.
Bummer to hear a few MVC beat reporters get laid off todays. Jim Connell of the Springfield News-Leader (Missouri State) and Daniel Allar of the Evansville Courier & Press (Evansville).
We are incredibly lucky to have two great guys covering our team in Paul Oren and Michael Osipoff. There isn't exactly a lot of great dedicated Beat Reporters in the Horizon League and we have two of them!
One of the things I was looking forward to about possibly moving to the the MVC is the amazing quantity of dedicated beat reporters for those schools teams. They have a lot of great beat reporters but bummer to see those guys go.
Oh...one more thing on the public/private split in the MVC that was brought to light by Todd Aaron Golden - ISUb's beat writer - on twitter yesterday. The private's have contributed NOTHING to the MVC in terms of NCAA bids since 2010. Here is his full Twitter string on it
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twitter storm warning. Let's talk about the MVC's public-private split for a few minutes. I did a bit of research and it's kind of shocking.
MVC writers have written ad nauseum about the MVC's public-private split. How one camp or another doesn't want to be marginalized.
We write about it because it's a decisive factor in MVC realignment. One camp will prevent the other from having too much voting influence.
Here's the thing ... what on Earth are the MVC private schools doing competitively to justify their voting power? Virtually nothing.
There are four MVC sports where all of the existing nine MVC schools participate in: men's and women's basketball, softball and volleyball.
Here's the public-private split in terms of NCAA Tournament appearances since 2010 from those nine schools
In men's basketball, the remaining five public MVC schools account for four NCAA appearances since 2010. The four private schools had zero.
In women's basketball, the five MVC publics have four NCAA Tournament appearances. The four privates account for one appearance.
In softball, the five MVC publics have six NCAA Tournament appearances since 2010. The privates have one NCAA tournament appearance.
In volleyball? The five MVC publics have 12 -- I repeat -- 12 NCAA Tournament appearances since 2010. The privates have zero.
That's a 26-2 split in favor of the remaining public MVC schools versus the private MVC schools in sports in which they directly compete.
It's long past time for MVC privates to flex their muscles on the court/field instead of just in the board room when it comes time to vote.
We hear a lot about MVC schools not carrying their weight. A 26-2 public-private NCAA split says it all about who the guilty parties are.
Four of the five public schools in the MVC has had NCAA Tournament appearances in at least two sports save Southern Illinois since 2010.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End string
The two private school NCAA bids?
Drake womens basketball this year - an auto bid and UNI got an at large
Bradley softball in 2014
That's it. That is 100% of the private schools NCAA bids in the 4 sports that every MVC school plays (MBB, WBB, VB, SB)
To be fair to the privates, of the 26 public school bids I think like at least 13 of them belong to just one public school - UNI. So it's not like the publics are doing much, across the board, outside of UNI.
UNI has 6 (I think) VB bids, 3 MBB bids, 3 WBB bids and 1 SB bid since 2009/2010. For schools left in the conference that is 75% of the MBB bids, I think all but 2 or 3 VB bids, and half of the WBB bids.
Well, if we get in the private school numbers are going up!
The whole Podcast is MVC talk and some stories about AP from one the Bradley reporters.
http://www.nwitimes.com/digital/audio/union-street-hoops/podcast-union-street-hoops-episode/audio_0a5ad0ce-3038-11e7-8305-0767c2051a1a.html
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/859869799064760320
I come from an entrepreneurial father who started his own business on the Northside of Chicago (Broadway and Belmont) who promised me an education (DePaul) but raised me on the Southside (Midway area) that I am passing on to my daughter Valpo Class of 2019 (good grades withstanding) to know that Paul and Michael are some of the hardest working guys in this biz. They gave us the scuttle on Bryce and they continue to be a valuable source of Valpo info on here and Twitter and I would be remiss to say UnionHops? I would love nothing more than to buy you guys and the faithful on this board more than a drink. All of You (and that includes the (WHs, the Valpo89s the AGGibson, etc.)educate as much as you entertain!!!! Thanks be to God on both fronts.
No matter what, I believe the MVC is the way to go if we are fortunate. So many Public schools that we have to compete against and their bigger budgets.. Stature, even with the defections it is still viewed as a conference with respect from other schools. With that comes the fact that big schools cannot duck as any longer. Yes they can but it comes with a price, their integrity because with social media comes the blasts that school A ducked us because we are now part of conference z.
Being a DePaul alum, I can tell you the bigger the conference the harder it is to duck and DePaul was freaking terrible. We will get opportunities and I believe IL state, SiIU, No Iowa are going to be strong. Can we say that about the HL?
Have Missed your contributions, Dad. Get more involved, OK?
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 03, 2017, 02:31:25 PMOh...one more thing on the public/private split in the MVC that was brought to light by Todd Aaron Golden - ISUb's beat writer - on twitter yesterday. The private's have contributed NOTHING to the MVC in terms of NCAA bids since 2010. .
I hear your frustration UNIFTW. These numbers are tough to swallow. This argument, however cannot be used against us. You can not generalize to say that since the 4 private MVC schools have not performed well, then all private schools will not. If anything, your argument shows how shortsighted the MVC officers were when they decided to choose the market over the performance.
https://twitter.com/Catch_N_Shoot/status/859951968202219520
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/859948761749102593
We could be really good and may be by the end of the season. Our talent is as good as any in The Valley. We are VERY young yet have plenty of experience in Tevonn, et al but guys like Joe and Bakari need to find their role and play within the system. If it comes together quickly, we could be in the hunt for the title.
I'm sort of just breaking down every teams roster right now and I honestly think the MVC is wide open next year. If we got the invite we could make some noise in our first year. Key is like VU72 said, trying to get everyone to find their role and just having the team find its chemistry those first 10-12 games or so of OOC play. I believe we are making another west coast trip this season for a returning game to Santa Clara. I'm assuming we'll be making a road trip of it or maybe playing another tourney out west possibly. Might be a great bonding moment for our new team just going out west doing nothing but hanging and balling.
We have a talented and athletic bunch next year. Would LOVE to show the MVC teams/fans that Valpo is NOT a school they should be sleeping on. We all know that our program can compete in the MVC and do damage but many MVC fans don't. We would NOT be Loyola coming into the MVC.
Dad89 - my dad grew up in the north side and went to DePaul. I grew up loving DePaul basketball and coach Ray, Red Rush and the Gonella scoreboard, but the Lenti family has made the program very difficult to watch.
If you are ever in Des Moines, drop by so we can watch Valpo destroy Drake in Dogtown.
Quote from: ValpoFan on May 03, 2017, 08:30:44 PM
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 03, 2017, 02:31:25 PMOh...one more thing on the public/private split in the MVC that was brought to light by Todd Aaron Golden - ISUb's beat writer - on twitter yesterday. The private's have contributed NOTHING to the MVC in terms of NCAA bids since 2010. .
I hear your frustration UNIFTW. These numbers are tough to swallow. This argument, however cannot be used against us. You can not generalize to say that since the 4 private MVC schools have not performed well, then all private schools will not. If anything, your argument shows how shortsighted the MVC officers were when they decided to choose the market over the performance.
Todd Golden came out with an entire article on it. He released further numbers. Not a single private school, currently in the MVC, has finished in the top 5 of the all sports standings since 2009. NOT ONE OF THE FOUR PRIVATE SCHOOLS HAS FINISHED IN THE TOP HALF OF THE CONFERENCE IN THE ALL SPORTS TROPHY.
I don't remember if it was this thread or the other one I've posted in that asked about the split and what has been done the last 5 years to make sure the MVC gets better moving forward, I'm assuming I'm combining threads.
I think a lot of the split between public and privates - and truly it was football/non-football (and Drake...so non-football) schools - and general animosity between the fans, has been driven by Creighton and Wichita State trying to "one up" the entire league. Their sense of arrogance was horrid. The way their admin spoke about the conference, the way they openly spoke about conspiracy theories against them, the way they attacked every other school, etc... created the divide. Then the private schools under performing, yet blaming football schools for the demise of the conference. If the private schools actually pulled their weight there wouldn't be any split.
What is hopeful, moving forward, is with WSU and Creighton and their arrogance gone we might finally get to a point of a unified conference and unified vision. I doubt it to some extent because...well...I'd rather not continue private school "basing" on a private school message board.
As for what the MVC has done to prepare to get better, there we have some issues. The MVC admin (MVC office and university presidents/ADs) are widely loathed for their short sided and small thinking. The MVC should have acted back in 07-09 to capitalize on where were were, but did we? No. Double round robin conference schedule, private/public split and blah blah blah (largely driven by Creighton and the rest of the privates). Hopefully the MVC admin saw the absolutely outrage over the Loyola add. Hopefully the see the absolute outrage over UNO even being mentioned in the same sentence as the MVC without being prefaced like "UNO has no chance in hell of being in the MVC" causes them to wake the hell up.
If it is only a single addition (either Valpo or Murray State) and not both, it's a failure and I want UNI on the first train out of town to a place like the MAC. I want us and Illinois State to pair up and make something happen. F the privates. Let them run a league with Loyola, Drake, UE, Bradley (who is gone to the A10 if they ever figure out how to get good and the MVC doesn't get better), and then Valpo, UWM, UMKC, UNO, etc... Enjoy that :censored: show on your own existing private schools. Some of us want to drive forward and get better. Accepting status quo is how you end up like Drake and Evansville. Marty Simmons has been there a decade and his results are acceptable to them. It's horrifying.
My MVC predictions for next year. I was going to do it without Valpo and MUSU, but after UNI and MOSU it gets really messy
1a. Missouri State - and I don't trust this at all. MSU has talent that could be on par with WSU but Paul Lusk doesn't know an X from an O and can't coach a game at all.
1b. UNI - Last year sucked. We played all first year guys in the back court and lost a junior to injury very early. He got a medical, he's got two years left now, we have experience in the back court now. Our post players are extremely effective when they are on the court. Oh, and we have Ben Jacobson. No one comes close to him in the league. It's miles apart.
3. Valpo - IDK
4. Illinois State - but I don't trust this at all. Muller has shown he can recruit but he turns his roster over NONSTOP. They've lost like 6 of their top 8 guys from last year due to transfers and eligibility running out (notice I didn't say graduation, that doesn't happen much in Normal). Muller is also about Paul Lusk level when it comes to managing a game. I could see ISUr falling to bottom half
5. Bradley - I think Wardle has something going there. His team is starting to "grow up". I think they get here
6. Loyola - Much more talent than 6th place. Porter can recruit but he can't game plan for :censored:....noticing a trend on MVC coaches right now?
7. Murray State - tradition and the league not knowing much about them slots them here. I have no idea. Couldn't name one player on their roster, but a sub .500 OVC team likely doesn't walk in to the MVC and do superb off the start
8. SIU - Barry Hinson is one of the odder coaches in MVC history, in a few ways. I love having him in the league, but I'm not sure he's a great coach.
9. Indiana State - I don't know that ISUb has the money, but this needs to be a hot seat year for Lansing. NCAA tournament in year 1 with a freshman Jake Odum and it's only gotten worse every single year since then. I like him, he gets a lot of credit for what he does accomplish given how poorly funded the ISUb program is, but I don't think he's anything more than a meh recruiter and an okay coach.
Don't make me pick who's less :censored: between Drake and Evansville.
10. Evansville - it's no secret UE is probably the MVC program I like the least. Marty runs a middle school offense, can't game plan, can't make in game adjustments, can't do anything but huff and puff (I'll stop myself from making a joke I really want to make). To his credit, he yells louder than all of the other coaches in the league, combined....he also wei......nope, gonna stop.
11. Drake - they have D3 talent (legit, they struggle with Iowa D3 schools through most of the game during the exhibitions, don't let the final score fool you) and a first year with a head coach...again. 4th coach since 08. Their admin is horrid. Worst athletic department in the conference (along with UE)
12 (IF THEY ARE ADDED) UW-M. Horrid HL team makes for a horrid MVC team.
UNIFTW, I understand your reluctance to open up and just be yourself on a possible opponent's forum, but please feel free to relax a bit and open up and say what's on your mind. ;D
UNI's hammering of the private schools overlooks one pretty obvious fact. Creighton is private and until last year was a big part of the conference success. As long as the point is that the CURRENT, EXISTING privates are terrible then fine. It's like The Horizon saying that nobody has ever had national success and overlooking that school to our south.
As long as UNI shows love for his Waterloo Wildcats and does not praise the Hawkeyes in his editorials, I am all for his expertise. Hey UNI - perhaps we can meet at Peppers or Singlespeed for a beer before Valpo goes to work on you guys!
Quote from: vu72 on May 04, 2017, 06:27:14 AM
UNI's hammering of the private schools overlooks one pretty obvious fact. Creighton is private and until last year was a big part of the conference success. As long as the point is that the CURRENT, EXISTING privates are terrible then fine. It's like The Horizon saying that nobody has ever had national success and overlooking that school to our south.
I stated repeatedly that is current MVC members. That means it's also leaving out WSU. That's swings it even harder.
Also, Creighton has been gone a full recruiting cycle. They had nothing to do with the last 4 years.
Creighton also has never been past the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. So...
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 04, 2017, 07:00:26 AM
Quote from: vu72 on May 04, 2017, 06:27:14 AM
UNI's hammering of the private schools overlooks one pretty obvious fact. Creighton is private and until last year was a big part of the conference success. As long as the point is that the CURRENT, EXISTING privates are terrible then fine. It's like The Horizon saying that nobody has ever had national success and overlooking that school to our south.
I stated repeatedly that is current MVC members. That means it's also leaving out WSU. That's swings it even harder.
Also, Creighton has been gone a full recruiting cycle. They had nothing to do with the last 4 years.
Creighton also has never been past the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. So...
UNI hates like a champ. I don't think any of us have used such aggressive phrasing with YSU, CSU, UD or UIC.
But somehow I like it....
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 04, 2017, 06:54:11 AM
As long as UNI shows love for his Waterloo Wildcats and does not praise the Hawkeyes in his editorials, I am all for his expertise. Hey UNI - perhaps we can meet at Peppers or Singlespeed for a beer before Valpo goes to work on you guys!
I actually live down in the Cedar Rapids metro. No, Cedar Rapids and Cedar Falls aren't the same thing. UNI is in Cedar Falls not Cedar Rapids. Don't ever say Cedar Rapids. Two quickest ways to end up on a UNI :censored: list is to say NIU and Cedar Rapids.
However, Peppers and Single Speed are top shelf. Give me Whiskey Road over Peppers though. Some Saturday game I'll meet you there, for sure.
Also, F everything about the schools and fan bases in Ames and Iowa City
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 04, 2017, 07:36:22 AM
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 04, 2017, 07:00:26 AM
Quote from: vu72 on May 04, 2017, 06:27:14 AM
UNI's hammering of the private schools overlooks one pretty obvious fact. Creighton is private and until last year was a big part of the conference success. As long as the point is that the CURRENT, EXISTING privates are terrible then fine. It's like The Horizon saying that nobody has ever had national success and overlooking that school to our south.
I stated repeatedly that is current MVC members. That means it's also leaving out WSU. That's swings it even harder.
Also, Creighton has been gone a full recruiting cycle. They had nothing to do with the last 4 years.
Creighton also has never been past the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. So...
UNI hates like a champ. I don't think any of us have used such aggressive phrasing with YSU, CSU, UD or UIC.
But somehow I like it....
Many UNI fans refer to Creighton University as sCUm, because they are scum. My phone autocorrect CU to sCUm and scum to sCUm.
I'm one of the more vocal, and vengeful, UNI fans. People love me or hate me - that includes UNI fans. I love message board debates. I research the hell out of the debate, which droves people nuts too.
MVC fan bases are fun. Some are soft and hate the debates (UE and Drake mostly). That's likely because, just like on the field of competition, they know they aren't as good as everyone else at it. With sCUm and WSU gone, the debates can stay more on topic and relevant. Those two fan bases were very quick to take things to a level and placed they didn't need to go. Those two fan bases killed off about 70% of MVCFans over the last 5 years.
I like UNI's philosophy of making the SL and HL weaker.
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/860097305747349505
UNI - I know the difference between Cedar Rapids and Cedar Falls, and I know the Cedar Falls area well. I make trips to the Cedar Valley often. I agree that Whiskey Road is better than Peppers. I also like dining at Becks, Montage and the Brown Bottle.
I am already looking forward to the road trips and we have not yet gotten an invite!
And was it the team/program or the fans that are the basis of your opinion? Valpo had a similar distatste for Butler when we were in the HL togther. Other people on this board can speak more eloquently about that but I believe it was generally issues with their fan base.
Quote from: bsmith21 on May 04, 2017, 09:15:07 AM
This is a question for UNI fan. why all the hate for Creighton ? As an outsider they always seemed like a solid organization and no worse than any other really good mid major program. Is there something specific? Is it just they were good or maybe because they left? Im just curious I feel like there's a story or 2 here.
Real short answer:
McDermott, friend hat, arrogance, recruiting
I can give you a MUCH more detailed answer if you really want. It was/is extremely heated between us. They are/were enemy #1 for years.
Sounds like this will all be decided on Monday's MVC President Meeting.
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/860131452993888256
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 04, 2017, 09:28:32 AM
Quote from: bsmith21 on May 04, 2017, 09:15:07 AM
This is a question for UNI fan. why all the hate for Creighton ? As an outsider they always seemed like a solid organization and no worse than any other really good mid major program. Is there something specific? Is it just they were good or maybe because they left? Im just curious I feel like there's a story or 2 here.
Real short answer:
McDermott, friend hat, arrogance, recruiting
I can give you a MUCH more detailed answer if you really want. It was/is extremely heated between us. They are/were enemy #1 for years.
I can gunderstand the arrogance piece and can guess that there may have been some negative recruiting going on involving Creighton. I don't know any history with respect to McDermott (Dougie McBuckets?) and what does 'friend hat 'mean?
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 04, 2017, 10:12:27 AM
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 04, 2017, 09:28:32 AM
Quote from: bsmith21 on May 04, 2017, 09:15:07 AM
This is a question for UNI fan. why all the hate for Creighton ? As an outsider they always seemed like a solid organization and no worse than any other really good mid major program. Is there something specific? Is it just they were good or maybe because they left? Im just curious I feel like there's a story or 2 here.
Real short answer:
McDermott, friend hat, arrogance, recruiting
I can give you a MUCH more detailed answer if you really want. It was/is extremely heated between us. They are/were enemy #1 for years.
I can gunderstand the arrogance piece and can guess that there may have been some negative recruiting going on involving Creighton. I don't know any history with respect to McDermott (Dougie McBuckets?) and what does 'friend hat 'mean?
Oh boy. I get to rehash this whole story. Give me a bit. I've got about 17 years worth of McDermott history to type out.
It'll be long but you'll "get it" when I'm done.
A Readers' Digest version will certainly suffice. Thanks!
My birthday is May 9th. No better birthday present than an announcement if it comes and we are named. I have enough neckties. ;D
Jeff Bidwell (Murray State Athletics Insider/radio guy) talked to Coach Prohm (their former HC & current HC of Iowa State) and he asked him what he thought about Murray State potentially making that move to the MVC and he really stressed that Murray State would need to boost the budget and be all in or else teams won't be able succeed. He said he tried but what he said went in vein (sounds like Homer/Bryce asking for ARC reno).
Some of the things he said mentioned that are require of schools:
-Have to be all in financially
-Chartered flights for recruiting
-Increase recruiting budget
-Needs Hire: Operations guys, secretary, Grad Assistants, etc.
Not posting this to knock Murray but sounds like Valpo has been ready for years to make this move. Valpo has made the financial commitment for years and our schools has the support staff of people to make this jump and literally hit the ground running. Although I'm not sure if we charter planes for coaches (maybe we do and I'm not aware of it.), but regardless we have for years spent $ sending coaches recruiting overseas and scouting guys. Valpo would be mid pack in terms of budget in the MVC, I would think it may even tick up a bit if we were to join.
Just thought it was a great little clip of a coach who was stressing the need to financial back your teams to succeed at that level.
https://twitter.com/AKAJeffBidwell/status/859821308623933441
Valpo has the talent to compete for the top. Itll be interesting to see how the new pieces fit together since theres so many unknowns while also having a relatively new HC. Also, if we move to the MVC, were going to be facing tougher competition game in and game out while also being in unfamiliar arenas/cities. Game day logistics could be a hidden challenge.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 04, 2017, 12:21:36 PM
Valpo has the talent to compete for the top. Itll be interesting to see how the new pieces fit together since theres so many unknowns while also having a relatively new HC. Also, if we move to the MVC, were going to be facing tougher competition game in and game out while also being in unfamiliar arenas/cities. Game day logistics could be a hidden challenge.
I'm really not worried about the Logistical stuff of going to new cities.
As for the talent I'm not worried at all. We can compete in the MVC and have proven that and been successful.
Agreed it will be interesting how the roster melds together. My guess is Linssen is will be the starting PF next season. He has the most experience out of all the young PFs and when Lottich was talking about him he said he's pretty raw in most of his game but the one thing he'll be ready to do is rebound. Depending on Smits' development this summer it might be best to pair him with Smits to help be a guy who can grab boards. All speculation on my part.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 04, 2017, 12:21:36 PM
Valpo has the talent to compete for the top. Itll be interesting to see how the new pieces fit together since theres so many unknowns while also having a relatively new HC. Also, if we move to the MVC, were going to be facing tougher competition game in and game out while also being in unfamiliar arenas/cities. Game day logistics could be a hidden challenge.
You make a valid point, but lack of familiarity cuts both ways. I remember when Missouri State came into the ARC for the 2011 Bracket Buster matchup. They were either leading the MVC or no worse than 2nd at the time. The game was on ESPN and Dickie V was in the house. The place was packed out and rock'in from pregame to the final gun. The noise was deafening. MSU was completely shell shocked. We dominated them from beginning to end and sent them rushing out the door with with their tails between their legs. Stories like that are a dime a dozen when new blood arrives on the scene.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 04, 2017, 12:21:36 PM
Valpo has the talent to compete for the top. Itll be interesting to see how the new pieces fit together since theres so many unknowns while also having a relatively new HC. Also, if we move to the MVC, were going to be facing tougher competition game in and game out while also being in unfamiliar arenas/cities. Game day logistics could be a hidden challenge.
The grind of the MVC vs HL is a huge difference and will translate to as much as 2-3 less W per year I'd anticipate.
This is a very solid point, look at what OOCA road trip back ends do to us (BSU two years ago). I'd feel safe stating that fatigue from enhanced competition will be a larger hurdle, undoubtedly. And even more prevalent in high school seniors transitions...bigger freshmen wall syndrome and sooner.
For those interested, here is this week's podcast.
We talk NFL Draft, some local sports, but mainly Murray State and the MVC
Special guest Ed Marlowe of the Paducah Sun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4isVTSuJ-Tc&feature=youtu.be
However, we would need to get ready for 9 teams and adjust to their arenas versus them adjusting to one or two new arenas.
I was at that game as well and that kind of was the point I was making. It's easy to get up for a one-off game, but the regular season grind against tougher competition would be much more difficult to maintain. (Not saying it cant be done)
Im not worried about the hotel logistics that much. I was thinking more along the lines of familiarity, routines, making sure the team gets to the arena on time, getting in the shootarounds, etc. Being in a league for so many years you kind of get into a routine for away games and know where to go. A wrong turn, a wrong door, traffic etc could cut short or eliminate a shootaround. I don't think it is a big issue, and navigating a bus through Terre Haute or Evansville is easier than Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc, and at some point they are 18-22 year olds and you can roll the ball out and let them play, but just something that could potentially make it tougher to compete at the top the first year.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 04, 2017, 02:44:54 PM
However, we would need to get ready for 9 teams and adjust to their arenas versus them adjusting to one or two new arenas.
I was at that game as well and that kind of was the point I was making. It's easy to get up for a one-off game, but the regular season grind against tougher competition would be much more difficult to maintain. (Not saying it cant be done)
Im not worried about the hotel logistics that much. I was thinking more along the lines of familiarity, routines, making sure the team gets to the arena on time, getting in the shootarounds, etc. Being in a league for so many years you kind of get into a routine for away games and know where to go. A wrong turn, a wrong door, traffic etc could cut short or eliminate a shootaround. I don't think it is a big issue, and navigating a bus through Terre Haute or Evansville is easier than Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc, and at some point they are 18-22 year olds and you can roll the ball out and let them play, but just something that could potentially make it tougher to compete at the top the first year.
I think familiarity is a Year 1-2 problem. More long term, competition is higher on the whole and the new MVC choice(s) should anticipate problems with roster depth (quality) and overall grind them out games where the OVC / HL doesn't currently present as much friction with less depth of quality.
We join MVC I'm giving us a .500 conference record in 2017/18. If we stay in HL maybe 0.6667.
A very interesting article about the Public vs Private divide in the MVC.
http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20170504/mvc-nears-decision-on-expansion
Publics seem ticked that Privates aren't pulling their weight. Based on budgets the privates are spending (on MBB at least), but the results haven't been there yet. Loyola and Bradley are in good shape for the future. Evansville has been just mediocre the last 10 years. E-Ville was pretty good in 15'-16'. As for Drake there is no two ways about it, they have been bad the 10yrs. Drake's last good year was 07'-08'.
If you ask me the MVC could REALLY use scheduling standards in Men's Basketball for OOC. Don't allow coaches to schedule too many cupcake home games just because they want to justify their job... (the Horizon League has had this problem with a few schools). Don't allow schools to be drag the league down with their scheduling.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 04, 2017, 10:40:06 AM
A Readers' Digest version will certainly suffice. Thanks!
This is as short as I can make it...sorry. It's still 1,370ish words
I'll try to keep this as short, and tangent free, as I can. UNI and Creighton have always fought over recruits. Creighton always hated that UNI was allowed in the MVC. Never thought we deserved it, they were superior in every single way, blah blah blah. That created tension, as you could guess. We also went head-to-head over many recruits, typically won by Creighton – most notably the Korver brothers and Nate Funk. It was a rivalry but not hot until about 2010. But before I get there... Greg McDermott played his college ball at UNI between 83/84 and 87/88, AAMOF, he is a UNI HOFer. He started his coaching career in 1989 at North Dakota as an assistant. He took his first HC gig in 1994 at Wayne State. In 2000 he went to NDSU, where he met up with Ben Jacobson as an assistant. One season at NDSU and the UNI job opened up. UNI was a horrid program, playing in a 17,000 seat football dome, but it was home so Greg took the job and brought Ben Jacobson with him. In just his third season (03/04) he took UNI to an NCAA tournament. He then took UNI to the tournament in his fourth and 5th seasons. After losing to Georgetown in the NCAA tournament McDermott made a comment in a press conference/interview about how he was going to get UNI to the next level and was at a dream job. He then didn't ride back to Cedar Falls with the team. He took a plane to Chicago to interview with Iowa State. From there he flew to Manhattan, KS to interview with K-State. Within 4 days of losing in the NCAA tournament he had 2 B12 interviews and had accepted the Iowa State job and in his introductory presser called Iowa State a....wait for it....dream opportunity. Remember, he said the same thing about UNI – where he is a HOFer as a player – just a few days earlier. The bridge with about half of the UNI fans wasn't completely burned.....yet. Ben Jacobson stayed behind to take over the program. Greg and Ben are BEST friends. The Iowa State/UNI and Creighton/UNI games were incredibly hard, and hated, by both coaches. It's why Creighton and UNI haven't played since they went to the Big East. Neither coach wants to go through it. Greg played a big part in getting the McLeod Center build. Honestly, if it wasn't for him we probably don't have it and look a lot like Youngstown State right now. The McLeod Center opened in 2006/2007, the first year after Greg went to Iowa State. At this point UNI/Iowa/Iowa State were still playing H/Hs every year. Iowa State was set to come to CF that year, we forced Iowa State to play in the UNIDome, just to spite McDermott. He didn't get to coach the game in its first season, even though he was scheduled too, in the building that existed largely because of him. It would have been the third ever game in the building. CBBReference shows it as a McLeod Center game, but it wasn't. Even better UNI whipped Iowa State by 13. Anyway, Greg struggled at Iowa State, and went 1-3 against UNI in his 4 years in Ames and 0-2 at home. Picking up the Creighton part.... After 4 years of not doing so well in Ames, Greg knew he was likely going to get fired after the next season, and rather than dealing with that he went looking for, and got, another job – Creighton. It paid more, was in a conference he knew well, in recruiting area he knew well, and was set up to do well after 20 years of Dana Altman. Him leaving UNI like he did to go to Iowa State pissed people off. Him going form Iowa State to main rival Creighton re-pissed people off, plus missed more people off. HOWEVER, that's not the main issue. As you all know, Greg has a son named Doug. Doug is pretty good as basketball and had a fabulous career at Creighton and couldn't pass up the opportunity to play for his father. That's how the story is presented nationally and by the McDermotts. What that story leaves out is the truth. Doug had committed to UNI as a sophomore in HS. UNI knew how good Doug was. He grew up in Cedar Falls, he just happened to play HS ball in Ames because his dad took the Iowa State job. Anyway, because UNI knew how good Doug was, combined with our roster make up, UNI didn't really recruit any other post players for that class. It focused on wings and guards. Doug SIGNED HIS LOI with UNI in Nov of his SR year in high school. Doug registered for classes at UNI and was on campus working out when his dad took the Creighton job. His dad gave him a shot to play for him at Creighton, that's too good to pass up, right? Who could fault him for that? At least, that's how the McDermott's and the media play it. At Greg's introductory conference at Creighton, there's Doug in a Creighton shirt and Greg talking about how he can't wait to have Doug play for him and that UNI and the MVC had granted him a full release to play immediately for Creighton (in the MVC once you sign a LOI it counts as an intra-conference transfer, which is a 2 year sit out period, even if the kid is still in HS like Doug was). Greg said he called Coach Jake and asked him to "Put his friend hat on, and let Doug play for him without enforcing the transfer mandate". Problem with that is, Jake and our AD hadn't heard from the McDermott family, or the MVC office, about this before that press conference. They were completely thrown under the bus. What were the supposed to do at that point, go "Well, we know Creighton said he has a full release, the MVC said they won't enforce the rule unless we want it enforced, but we are going to enforce it anyway."? No. That was a no win, bend over, situation for UNI. All because "Friend hat". That sent UNI into a bit of a tailspin for a few years, all due to lack of post depth. Oh, you better believe Creighton was treated like :censored: every time they came to the McLeod center for those next three years. Doug never won a game in Cedar Falls, went 0-3. The loudest I've heard that arena is those games, and we've had it loud in there with games against North Carolina (win), top 25 Wichita State teams, Iowa, Iowa State, etc... To add fuel to the fire, Douggies mommy tried to come to his rescue and complained about how poorly, and wrong it was, UNI fans booed Greg and Doug like we did. That single move set UNI back 5 years. It happened so late that UNI couldn't grab another post for that year. It was mostly fine until Feb. We were 18-8 and a half game out of first place, when our only reliable post player broke his ankle. We lost like 8 of our last 10 to close that year out. Had Doug been there, we would have had post depth to keep going. Not only that, we hadn't really been in on any post players for that year's class, so we took fliers on kids that weren't really UNI caliber, or were prep school kids with academic/behavior history but we needed bodies. None of those really worked out, and it wasn't until Seth Tuttle got to be an upper classmen (2014) that we started to recover. It wasn't until the last 2 years that we really had "real" post depth because of the scramble to grab bodies leaving us with guys that quit the team mid season or just weren't at a level to be a difference maker.Sorry, that's still long but it's as short as I can make it. If you made it through all of that, you'll understand why many of us use sCUm. That doesn't cover their fan behavior or anything like that either, which adds to it.
Here is a few angles of the loudest I've ever heard that place. Some background - UNI up on #12 Creighton by a 3 with about 14 seconds left to play...then this happened
Wide view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In34AL0xiEY
mid court about 1/4 up view - best one for "sound" of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u-XLxa3TR8
Scorers table view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVER1W6j3Hc
Court Rush view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra2OvlMXp9M
Best part about that shot? It was right over baby Dougie's smug ass hand and in his damn face.
Ok now 3...2...1... speculate...
Maybe I'm just a little pessimistic but if Paul heard something in mid-April, if I remember correctly the rumors were stronger for Murray State around that time 2-3 weeks ago... but then tides seemed to favor Valpo in the rumor-mill after the visits...
Who do you think Paul heard? Wasn't Murray State the warmer rumor in mid-April? My jedi-mind trick didn't work on him ;)
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/860225406401695744
Tweets from April 21:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/855439589779099650
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/855459978559332352
To UNIFTW, that is a pretty good summary of why there is a bit of friction twixt UNI and Creighton. But Creighton is gone. Hope any new additions to the MVC will be catharthic and add to MVC growth and reputation.
Mark Adams seems to be a pretty reputable. I have to assume he knows the backlash he would get if he was wrong with his source. You can't spin it back after what he tweeted.
Also, no way Paul O doesn't know what's it up. Once the word is out he'll have a story posted instantly.
Valpo has been very tight lipped for a reason.
Posted: Thursday, May 4th, 2017 O-Zone Opinion, Slider, Stories | Basketball | Missouri State
EXPANDING ITS HORIZON: MISSOURI VALLEY'S FUTURE DECIDED SOON
http://www.ozarkssportszone.com/2017/05/04/expanding-their-horizons-missouri-valleys-future-decided-soon/
VALPARAISO CRUSADERS
"If the Valley brain trust only goes with one school, my favorite would be Valparaiso.
It is a school rich in basketball history. The Crusaders have gone to the NCAA Tournament nine times since 1995. Since 2000, have won 352 games. Valpo's strength of schedule would help replace the loss of Wichita State. In recent years, Valparaiso has scheduled Oregon, Kentucky, Purdue, Ohio State, Butler and New Mexico.
And the excitement around that program compares to other Valley schools as the Crusaders averaged just over 3,000 per game last year; the MVC average was 4,800 last season with the numbers skewed by Wichita State's average attendance of 10,700.
While Valparaiso would fit inside the current footprint of the Valley, a mark against it would be the distance from Missouri State. Bears fans wanting to take in a game at Valpo would have an eight and a half hour trip ahead of them. The 536-miles between schools would be the most on the Crusaders schedule.
Valpo, however, would be reunited with former Horizon League rival, Loyola-Chicago with a distance of just 51-miles. In-state, Valpo would have a 160-mile trip to Indiana State, and a 150-mile voyage over to Illinois State."
Creighton might be gone, but they will never be forgotten. They are like herpes, in more ways than you could know.
I have my thoughts on Mark Adams, and what he posted, but I'll save that for my twitter.
I really believe it will be 2.
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 04, 2017, 08:23:37 PM
Creighton might be gone, but they will never be forgotten. They are like herpes, in more ways than you could know.
I have my thoughts on Mark Adams, and what he posted, but I'll save that for my twitter.
I really believe it will be 2.
I hope it is 3. Many don't think UWM is worthy. I think the UWM AD's job is on the line as of the new coach. She will move mountains to make him successful. With the size of the alumni base and the enrollment they can turn it around fast. BTW, the non revenue sports they sponsor are pretty good too.
Quote from: Chairback on May 04, 2017, 08:17:35 PM
Mark Adams seems to be a pretty reputable. I have to assume he knows the backlash he would get if he was wrong with his source. You can't spin it back after what he tweeted.
Also, no way Paul O doesn't know what's it up. Once the word is out he'll have a story posted instantly.
Valpo has been very tight lipped for a reason.
I'm hoping Mark is right. He's definitely a very good reporter/analyst and is as plugged into the Valley as anyone. He wouldn't have just floated it out there.
I'm hoping we get the invite.
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 04, 2017, 08:23:37 PM
Creighton might be gone, but they will never be forgotten. They are like herpes, in more ways than you could know.
I'm no doctor but you can't get rid herpes and they are gone lol.
But thanks for sharing the story between the bad blood between UNI & Creighton. I had absolutely no clue Dougy McBuckets committed to UNI and was registered for class. He was a hell of a college player (still could be a poor mans Kyle Korver in my opinion in the NBA but my Bulls can't seem to develop anyone... so hopefully it works out with the Thunder).
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 04, 2017, 08:23:37 PM
I really believe it will be 2.
I was a little surprised when he said they would likely only add 1 school. All the chatter before was they were going to go 12 schools before that tweet.
I should be interesting to see what will happen
Many UNI fans refer to Creighton University as sCUm, because they are scum. My phone autocorrect CU to sCUm and scum to sCUm.
[/quote]
This is funny - Some of my fellow MSU alums (and possibly me, too) refer to that school down the road from us, as scUM.
Quote from: valpospartan on May 04, 2017, 09:54:38 PM
Many UNI fans refer to Creighton University as sCUm, because they are scum. My phone autocorrect CU to sCUm and scum to sCUm.
This is funny - Some of my fellow MSU alums (and possibly me, too) refer to that school down the road from us, as scUM.
[/quote]
Go Wolverines!!!
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 04, 2017, 10:40:06 AM
A Readers' Digest version will certainly suffice. Thanks!
Are you talking about the Republican's Healthcare Bill (Trumpcare) or the "Creighton Story?"
A BigD post on the WSU board apparently after 1 of our fans had the audacity to suggest that the HL might want to consider New Mexico St. as a possible replacement for Valpo:
Quote from: @raiderd" source="/post/85114/thread" timestamp="1493781353Why the hell are you even trying to take part in this discussion? You guys are leaving. Your input isn't needed or desired. Let me speak for the rest of the HL. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out of the conference.
Losing Valpo is not good for the conference but honestly I cannot be happier to never have to listen to an arrogant Valpo fan ever again. They are actually 1000x worse than Butler fans ever where. Butler fans at least had a legit reason to act arrogant. Their team routinely went to the post season and won games. I don't know what the hell Valpo fans have to be so arrogant about. They have exactly ZERO NCAA tournament wins since joining the conference. I hope the join the MVC and turn into the next Evansville.
I had no idea BigD was a Valpo hater. I'm surprised. He knows full well that given the same opportunity, WSU would jump at the chance and their fans wouldn't give Valpo or the HL another thought.
Apparently, I am banned from his forum. I guess he knows something that not even Valley insiders know—that we are gone. With insider information like that, he should be sitting on a beach somewhere earning 19% instead of running a message board.
No loss though. On HL realignment matters, if it were up to him, Northern Kentucky would still be in the Atlantic Sun. Brilliant.
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2017, 05:07:55 AM
A BigD post on the WSU board apparently after 1 of our fans had the audacity to suggest that the HL might want to consider New Mexico St. as a possible replacement for Valpo:
Quote from: @raiderd" source="/post/85114/thread" timestamp="1493781353Why the hell are you even trying to take part in this discussion? You guys are leaving. Your input isn't needed or desired. Let me speak for the rest of the HL. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out of the conference.
Losing Valpo is not good for the conference but honestly I cannot be happier to never have to listen to an arrogant Valpo fan ever again. They are actually 1000x worse than Butler fans ever where. Butler fans at least had a legit reason to act arrogant. Their team routinely went to the post season and won games. I don't know what the hell Valpo fans have to be so arrogant about. They have exactly ZERO NCAA tournament wins since joining the conference. I hope the join the MVC and turn into the next Evansville.
I had no idea BigD was a Valpo hater. I'm surprised. He knows full well that given the same opportunity, WSU would jump at the chance and their fans wouldn't give Valpo or the HL another thought.
It's not so much arrogance, as it is the fact that the rest of the Horizon loses to teams like NC A&T out of conference and 8 of the 10 teams have had coaches fired in the past 5 years. There's something to be said about how the Horizon's best team hasn't even won a tournament game in the past 20 years. That should speak volumes to how unacceptable Wright State and other schools have been.
I went and read part of that thread. It says something when the admin of your board is openly trashing another school before they've even officially left. This is the antithesis of what we've seen here from MVC fans. Already, just with rumors of us joining, we've had more MVC fans show up on our board than HL fans ever have. And the vast majority are knowledgeable, respectful, and bring facts and figures to the discussion, with indications that there will be some really fun, good natured trash talking when the season rolls around.
We are spoiled as Valpo fans, as our program has been on a (mostly) upward trajectory for the last 25 years. If we had stagnated after Bryce graduated, maybe we would be acting like some of these other boards. It's seeming more like a win win to me at this point. Either continue the upward climb with a move to the MVC, or take this potentially loaded team Lottich has assembled and spend the next few years curb stomping the Horizon.
No matter what happens, it's been enlightening to say the least to pull back the curtain a bit.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on May 05, 2017, 08:03:42 AMAlready, just with rumors of us joining, we've had more MVC fans show up on our board than HL fans ever have. And the vast majority are knowledgeable, respectful, and bring facts and figures to the discussion,
Possibly because they are better academic institutions...?
You are correct, we have been spoiled. If it takes us a couple years as it did in the HL to start competing, we will have to patient and we are not used to that.
My question, is the last 6 years of dominance in the HL contributed to Valpo being good or the HL decreasing?
Vote for Valpo! Currently Murray State is winning in this poll b/c they have a large amount of active fans on Twitter. If you don't have an account create a twitter account and join the other Valpo fans on twitter! Takes literally 1 minute. Sign up: https://twitter.com/signup?lang=en
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/860467680863805440
Who the heck is this Tim Brown guy??? Not liking this message.
https://twitter.com/rock_beats_papr/status/860471624923000832
https://twitter.com/rock_beats_papr/status/860492962337366016
There's always one. Let's just hope he's not on the board of directors.
I wish I knew what was up. Gun to my head I'd say Valparaiso and Murray State should be in and I've got several reasons for wanting Milwaukee in. That said, I have no clue which way the cookie is going to crumble.
Quote from: Pgmado on May 05, 2017, 10:12:44 AM
I wish I knew what was up. Gun to my head I'd say Valparaiso and Murray State should be in and I've got several reasons for wanting Milwaukee in. That said, I have no clue which way the cookie is going to crumble.
From what you've heard from folks could you tell us if we should feel encouraged about the prospects of getting invited to the MVC?
Seems like if they go 10 it will either be Valpo or Murray State...
We are lagging behind in the poll. People need to get on there and VOTE.
Who cares?? That pole doesn't matter for anything.
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 05, 2017, 08:12:14 AM
My question, is the last 6 years of dominance in the HL contributed to Valpo being good or the HL decreasing?
The answer is probably both. Looking at the decade prior to the last 6 years of success, Valpo's average Kenpom rating was 143.7, with its best ranking at 47 (2002), and its worse being 226 (2009). The past 6 years, Valpo's average Kenpom rating has climbed to 96.2, thanks at least in part to the past 4 years with Alec Peters (93.5) and the 5 years prior to this one with Bryce Drew at the helm (94.6).
During this time, the Horizon League's rating, which was 10th in 2011, fell to 13th in 2012, climbed to 12th for a couple of seasons before steadily falling to the 20th rated league this season. This year was the first year the Horizon League had 0 teams in the top 100 in the history of Kenpom, as well as the first year that the league had 5 teams with ratings of 200 or worse. Now, with or without Valpo history would indicate this trend won't continue, but it certainly isn't a good direction for the league to be going in considering this was the last year of Butler's tourney shares being paid out to the league.
I want to see a clear message from the MVC. I want to know their vision for a multi-bid conference. So a one school invitation with wishy washy language about future additions will chill me to the bone. My suggested response to that would be for them (the MVC) to call again when they arrive at their final solution.
As I mentioned in a previous message, I view this situation through a Public Relations perspective. First, if the MVC replaces Wichita State with only only one team and that is not the currently strongest basketball program (Valpo) of the ones considered, that would be a PR disappointment for the MVC. Second, if Valpo goes through the hoops a second time for the MVC without a resulting invitation, that would be a PR disaster for Valpo, who have done nothing to lessen expectations—and it would reflect poorly on the MVC as well. Third, beat press and fan forums seem to have reached a consensus that Valpo should receive an invitation—either as the lone team or as part of a package including Murray State—and the lack of an invitation would go against those strong expectations, causing a PR problem.
Consequently, strictly from a Public Relations point of view, Valparaiso must receive an invitation, and I would be shocked if Valpo is not part of the plan to replace the Shockers.
Quote from: FWalum on May 05, 2017, 09:05:32 AM
Who the heck is this Tim Brown guy??? Not liking this message.
https://twitter.com/rock_beats_papr/status/860471624923000832
https://twitter.com/rock_beats_papr/status/860492962337366016
How correct can he be if he thinks rock beats paper?
The way the HL has treated us...and the way the Comish has operated the HL, we should help "grow" the HL? Are you kidding? Is this guy a relative of LaCrone or what?
My guess is the Tim Brown is a supporter of Omaha or Milwaukee. He obviously doesn't understand what travel would be for Valpo if "doubling" is his estimate. Grow the Horizon? Sure, we could invest in Cleveland State's program. ???
Quote from: vu72 on May 05, 2017, 12:49:59 PM
My guess is the Tim Brown is a supporter of Omaha or Milwaukee. He obviously doesn't understand what travel would be for Valpo if "doubling" is his estimate. Grow the Horizon? Sure, we could invest in Cleveland State's program. ???
I know Tim. Valpo grad. Uses a blog post from Oren has his evidence saying he mentions added travel costs and moving away from a lot of alumni bases. I personally have a hard time seeing how the travel costs would increase by a substantial margin.
Oren noted the average travel goes up in the MVC by like ten miles. Completely inconsequential.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 05, 2017, 12:22:25 PM
The way the HL has treated us...and the way the Comish has operated the HL, we should help "grow" the HL? Are you kidding? Is this guy a relative of LaCrone or what?
When Valpo joined the HL everybody and his mother from around the league were singing the praises of the league winner-hosted tournament. Then once We assumed the mantle and began dominating the league, miraculously everyone had a change of heart. So they vote to move the thing to Detroit and make up some bogus excuse about wanting to look like the big boys, so the same loser programs don't have to compete for a conference championship anymore to have a better chance to go to the NCAA tournament. Yeah, let's stay in the HL and help this bunch of back stabbing cry babies and their back stabbing cry baby fans "grow" the league.
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2017, 02:36:36 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 05, 2017, 12:22:25 PM
The way the HL has treated us...and the way the Comish has operated the HL, we should help "grow" the HL? Are you kidding? Is this guy a relative of LaCrone or what?
When Valpo joined the HL everybody and his mother from around the league were singing the praises of the league winner-hosted tournament. Then once We assumed the mantle and began dominating the league, miraculously everyone had a change of heart. So they vote to move the thing to Detroit and make up some bogus excuse about wanting to look like the big boys, so the same loser programs don't have to compete for a conference championship anymore to have a better chance to go to the NCAA tournament. Yeah, let's stay in the HL and help this bunch of back stabbing cry babies and their back stabbing cry baby fans "grow" the league.
Tell us what you really think wh!! ;D
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on May 05, 2017, 02:04:36 PM
Oren noted the average travel goes up in the MVC by like ten miles. Completely inconsequential.
I'm also not buying the "leaving cities where Valpo has significant alumni base" (e.g. Milwaukee and Cleveland) Valpo's largest alumni base in Chicago and obviously we would maintain a presence there. Valpo also has a significant alumni base located throughout Indiana and Illinois. My guess is that we would draw very well to Arch Madness as we have a substantial alumni base in the St. Louis market.
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2017, 02:36:36 PM
When Valpo joined the HL everybody and his mother from around the league were singing the praises of the league winner-hosted tournament. Then once We assumed the mantle and began dominating the league, miraculously everyone had a change of heart. So they vote to move the thing to Detroit and make up some bogus excuse about wanting to look like the big boys, so the same loser programs don't have to compete for a conference championship anymore to have a better chance to go to the NCAA tournament. Yeah, let's stay in the HL and help this bunch of back stabbing cry babies and their back stabbing cry baby fans "grow" the league.
Moving away from the home site format is easily the dumbest thing the league has done. Rather than give the best teams the best chance to win, I honestly don't know what the thought process was to move it to a neutral site. The Horizon wasn't going to be anything other than a one-bid league, so I'm not sure (other than panic maybe) why you wouldn't want to ensure that you at least sent your best chance to the NCAA tournament if there aren't going to be any at-large bids?
I don't think it was a "well Valpo's winning now so let's screw them over" no matter if it hurts the league financially type of decision though. In my opinion, it was likely a move made to try and maximize the league's revenue and whoever voted on it simply didn't think of any negatives that could come from it. From 2012-2015, the league's representative had been beaten in the NCAA tournament in the 1st round by an average of 12 points and never got higher than a 13 seed. My guess is LeCrone approached the schools and told them that while the league was finding itself again in the NCAA tournament, they could make some additional cash by having the tourney in a location mere miles from 2 of the league's schools. My guess is if the HL reps in the NCAA had managed to have more success or a higher seed during the tourney, there probably would have been more resistance to the idea, but we'll never know. What is known is that it appears to be a stupid and desperate move that will likely cost the league its most consistently successful team since Butler's departure.
I was doing some youtubing today and came across this game from 2015. We need more games like this in the McLeod Center. If you like CBB you'll freaking love this game. Hopefully if Valpo gets in we can create some like this
Give it a watch when you get time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnfO_F2IKxs
An interesting take by Paul lol.
All I'll say is the MVC has better weed the HL and I'll just leave it at that.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860595717156589568
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860595983230611456
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860596192673234978
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860596579144798208
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860597063930839040
Quote from: VU2014 on May 05, 2017, 04:23:48 PM
An interesting take by Paul lol.
All I'll say is the MVC has better weed the HL and I'll just leave it at that.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860595717156589568
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860595983230611456
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860596192673234978
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860596579144798208
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/860597063930839040
Oh my word! Is that honestly all you've got, Paul - "It's dumb to say you want to leave a league with a neutral site tournament to join a league with a neutral site tournament." When I get a few minutes I'll try to lay out the differences for you, albeit I think you already know - or you should.
I'll give you a little hint from 5" below the surface. It begins with the difference between the terms "neutral" and "pseudo neutral." You also might want to consider the phrase "it's all in the presentation" and words like honesty, integrity and mutual respect.
I'm with Paul. You can't complain about a neutral site tournament while wanting to bolt to a conference with a neutral site tournament. The case can be made that playing the tournament in St Louis is a lot better than playing it in Detroit. It seems Valpo needs to get used to the idea of a neutral site tournament.
As others have pointed out, there are substantial flaws in Paul's logic. The tournament in St. Louis is truly neutral, while the tournament in Detroit is not. Also, Valpo knows what it is getting in terms of a tournament when moving to the MVC; however, Valpo entered a HL with the tournament at campus sites, which was appreciated, and the conference chose to move the tournament to Detroit, something the Valparaiso leadership voted against. Finally, the tournament atmosphere at Arch Madness is head and shoulders over that in Detroit. If Paul has a problem with the fans' reactions, he should also question the attitudes and reactions of Valparaiso Athletics, which strongly opposed the move to Detroit for the HL tournament and which enthusiastically favors the move to the MVC.
Quote from: valpopal on May 05, 2017, 05:55:47 PM
As others have pointed out, there are substantial flaws in Paul's logic. The tournament in St. Louis is truly neutral, while the tournament in Detroit is not. Also, Valpo knows what it is getting in terms of a tournament when moving to the MVC; however, Valpo entered a HL with the tournament at campus sites, which was appreciated, and the conference chose to move the tournament to Detroit, something the Valparaiso leadership voted against. Finally, the tournament atmosphere at Arch Madness is head and shoulders over that in Detroit. If Paul has a problem with the fans' reactions, he should also question the attitudes and reactions of Valparaiso Athletics, which strongly opposed the move to Detroit for the HL tournament and which enthusiastically favors the move to the MVC.
Excellent.
1. As Pal indicates, the HL went from a tournament format with an EARNED advantage to the league's best team to one with an UNEARNED advantage in favor of 2 programs in the backyard of the tournament site. There is nothing NEUTRAL about that - nothing.
2. It was widely circulated that Oakland's Athletic Department lobbied the HL Office behind the scenes. If true, that adds a sleaze factor to the equation that would destroy all faith Valpo would have in the HL Office going forward to be an honest, independent broker. Once that trust is lost it's time to move on.
3. The unearned lack of neutrality in favor of Oakland and Detroit will go from bad to worse as soon as the new Detroit tournament venue is christened by Oakland and Detroit playing in a 4-team tournament with Michigan and Michigan State. Is there anyone who thinks that Mr. "I'm just trying to look out for the best interests of the HL" Kampe isn't going to try to leverage that advantage to the max - every year from now on?
4. The MVC's tournament is "what you see is what you get." It is a neutral site in a neutral city. It's not represented as something it is not. There is no reason to call into question the honesty and integrity of the league office or any of the league programs. Their tournament is well established and has an excellent reputation nationally.
So there you are, a plethora of differences just below the top soil. I can go deeper, if it becomes necessary.
With reference to the "neutral" site in Detroit, I remember hearing "King Kampe" in a radio interview prior to the tourney this year how great it was that the tourney was now in Detroit, especially so for OU and UDM. He also said it would be terrific if the 2 schools played each other in the tourney as they would probably come close to filling up the place. What? Are you kidding me? At the time he also said the tourney location should be a big advantage for recruiting purposes. The King is dead, the King is dead! Long live the King!
Quote from: bbtds on May 05, 2017, 05:31:52 PM
I'm with Paul. You can't complain about a neutral site tournament while wanting to bolt to a conference with a neutral site tournament. The case can be made that playing the tournament in St Louis is a lot better than playing it in Detroit. It seems Valpo needs to get used to the idea of a neutral site tournament.
Against seemingly popular sentiment, I too agree with PAUL and have from the start on this subject. I've read all your concerns and some are interesting.
We sound like jilted lovers gents. I'm also surprised at how much we refer to dominating the league. Top 3 in final standings is nice....but 2 NCAA bids since joining the HL is not dominating. I'd like to see us jump off our high horse just a tad more.
Still ecstatic about our future, just trying to tone down the rhetoric. This is where Mick texts me that I'm a fair weather fan!!!!
You have all raised good points. Here are my thoughts regarding this whole thing. I have long been a fan of a one-site tournaments. From my perspective as a reporter, I like seeing all the other reporters, SIDs, administrators all in one place. I'm a fan of being able to cover nine games in a few days. I know that's a selfish take because I get a media pass to cover the games and I'm paid to be there.
From a fan's perspective, and even from a reporter, I love knowing at the beginning of the year where I'm going to be for the postseason. In 14-15, the title, and location of the conference tournament, came down to a 9p start on the last night of the regular season. Planning travel, hotel and coverage for the Horizon League tournament was a chore when you didn't know where it was going to be. These were things that you never had to worry about in the Mid-Con days. You knew when the schedule came out that you could plan a trip to Fort Wayne, Kansas City or Tulsa. Except for that time my buddies drove from Valpo to Tulsa to get there for the semifinals, only to have Valpo lose to Chicago State.
I was thrilled when I heard that the Horizon League was looking to move to a single-site. Was I thrilled with Detroit? Well, it didn't bother me when the Mid-Con moved the tourney to Kansas City. Did it bother YOU when the tourney was in Fort Wayne? Ok, maybe that wasn't a homecourt advantage for Valpo, but it was certainly much easier for Valpo to get there than it was for Oral Roberts, Southern Utah or Western Illinois.
I understand the frustration with Detroit. I understand people who don't like the proximity to Detroit and Oakland. Has it mattered? I know that two years isn't a large sample size, but you can't ignore the fact that Oakland had a NBA player last year and one of the best teams in program history this year and the Grizzlies have as many Motor City Madness wins as Valparaiso.
Would I have preferred Indianapolis as a tourney location? Of course. How about Chicago? Well, that doesn't work because you'd all be upset about UIC's proximity. Milwaukee is in the same boat because the Panthers would have a proximity advantage. Indianapolis is the only neutral-site tournament that would've seemingly made people happy unless the Horizon League moved to Fort Wayne. Since the league hasn't embraced IPFW as a member, I doubt the league tourney would be well-received in Fort Wayne. I suppose Columbus could've made some sense...but then you have to pay attention to the fact that the city of Detroit WANTED the tournament. Nobody else was knocking down the door asking to host the Horizon tourney.
Whether we like it or not, the NCAA (and the Horizon League) is a business. They're going to take guaranteed money where they can get it. We can all argue (and we have the data to prove it) that a neutral-site tourney will hurt the top teams in their quest to get to the NCAA tournament, therefore hurting the Horizon League's chance at getting an additional unit or two. That said, the Horizon League has stressed for years that it wants their programs to be "built for at-large." Whatever that means, it's been the go-to line for the conference leadership. I don't have the data in front of me, but a couple years ago I researched that it's been something like six or seven years since a on-campus tourney conference got an at-large bid. The Horizon League wants to grow its league into a model of what the Valley is. They've tried to build their conference tournament in that manner.
Let me ask you all this. It seems that many people around the Valley view St. Louis as their Holy Grail replacement for Wichita State. What say you if the Valley adds St. Louis, Valparaiso and Murray State? Would it bother you to be entering a league that had a team with the conference tourney in its own backyard?
People keep asking me whether or not I think it is a good idea for Valparaiso to move to the Valley. I'm completely torn. Bring Milwaukee to the Valley and I feel better about it. I'm bias because its my hometown and I like getting paid to go home. I also think Milwaukee is an important school for Valpo to continue to play. The games are typically great and the alumni base always comes out strong. I'm trying, but I just can't get excited about trips to Carbondale. (Of course, I've never been. It could become my new favorite city)
The Horizon League has some problems, no question. Players are transferring out at an alarming rate. Coaches are dropping quicker than they do in the NBA. The conference can't seem to be able to lock in a conference challenge with someone else. It's still allowing teams to play non-D1's. My point in my Twitter thread earlier and my point now is that I don't think Motor City Madness is in the top five of reasons Valpo should leave the conference.
It's not a hill I'm willing to die on, but it is something I'm willing to argue a bit, mostly because I'm sick of the rumor mill. I just want an answer and then I want the offseason to start!
Quote from: valpo4life on May 05, 2017, 01:17:28 PMand moving away from a lot of alumni bases.
I am a little uneasy about leaving Wisconsin and Michigan. I'd not even thought about Ohio.
And I will be a little sore if I never get to the Milwaukee away game.
St. Louis would be a nice addition, but I do wonder about the alumni outreach possibilities in the MVC.
MCM was neutral in name only...next year you can't even say that as both Detroit and Oakland will get to play a regular season game on the court. The HL is a dumpster fire that shows no signs of being put out.
Do you have any reasons that aren't personal for supporting mbb staying in the HL?
We have to make this jump if the opportunity is given to us. The GOAL is to get in the BEST Conference possible that is within our geographical footprint. The outlook for becoming a 2-bid league consistently is stronger with the MVC.
MVC has much more committed schools to basketball then the HL. There are schools like Drake that haven't been great but they have the bones to be good with the right hires and scheduling and they spend $. I would rather have the poor teams in the conference be of the likes of Drake the YSU or CSU (which I get the transfers affected them).
Bottom line is the MVC fan-bases are more like Valpo and they actually CARE ABOUT BASKETBALL!! unlike many of the HL fan-bases. There is apathy in the HL which is never a good thing.
I get the concerns about leaving Wisconsin and Michigan but we can always schedule OOC games with many of those schools. You probably could get Detroit and Oakland (especially with Kampe) home and homes every other year and we could likely schedule UWM most years also and even Green Bay (far less appealing). I honestly think a few teams are starting to come back to life a bit because of recent hires in the HL but I don't trust those coaches to stay with their current teams 4-5yrs down the road.
There is NO "safe" conference for Mid-Majors anymore guys. There will alway be risk but you have to way that risk with the reward and I see more Long-term reward in the MVC.
Quote from: M on May 05, 2017, 10:28:01 PM
MCM was neutral in name only...next year you can't even say that as both Detroit and Oakland will get to play a regular season game on the court. The HL is a dumpster fire that shows no signs of being put out.
Do you have any reasons that aren't personal for supporting mbb staying in the HL?
I wonder if the future of the Valley sans Wichita could look like the present of the Horizon sans Butler. What is to say that a Valley team doesn't get disenchanted with their conference in a couple years and bolt for greener pastures? Sometimes I'd rather dance with the devil I know than the devil i don't.
What's to say that team isn't Valpo?
When NKU joined the Horizon I confess I enjoyed the fact that I could easily see Valpo play every year. When they played here in 2016 I actually saw my first game live since I was a student way back when. If they move to the MVC chances are I won't ever be able to see them live again. Still if that means they can play their conference tournament on a truely neutral site (assuming St. Louis doesn't move to the the MVC) I would support it. No excuses then if we gag in the conference tournament like we did the last two years. Every school will be in the same boat. And since I think the NCAA has made it abundantly clear that mid major conferences will not get more than one bid a truely neutral court conference tournament is extreemely important.
ICYMI: If you'd like to vote. Almost 1,500 people have voted in this and Valpo is trailing. Murray State has had their President, ADs and all their media guys retweeting it out (ours have not and I can't blame them for not doing so). They are beating us currently in the poll. Mark Adams is saying he hopes the MVC presidents use this as data in the meetings or at least take notice to it. I doubt they will but you never know.
Vote for Valpo. Currently Murray State is winning in this poll b/c they have a large amount of active fans on Twitter (larger enrollment). If you don't have an account create a twitter account and join the other Valpo fans on twitter! Takes literally 1 minute. Sign up: https://twitter.com/signup?lang=en
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/860467680863805440
Quote from: nkvu on May 06, 2017, 12:17:40 AM
When NKU joined the Horizon I confess I enjoyed the fact that I could easily see Valpo play every year. When they played here in 2016 I actually saw my first game live since I was a student way back when. If they move to the MVC chances are I won't ever be able to see them live again. Still if that means they can play their conference tournament on a truely neutral site (assuming St. Louis doesn't move to the the MVC) I would support it. No excuses then if we gag in the conference tournament like we did the last two years. Every school will be in the same boat. And since I think the NCAA has made it abundantly clear that mid major conferences will not get more than one bid a truely neutral court conference tournament is extreemely important.
How far is Evansville or Indiana State? Can't be 3 hours, can it?
I'm able to watch 3-4 live games a year coming from Tulsa. Little Tulsa has direct flights to Detroit, Chicago and Cincinnati. It was usually a just a 2 hour flight.
However there are no direct flights to Cedar Rapids, Carbondale, terra haute. I will most likely not see as many live games moving to the mvc. But that's selfish we must take our promotion if given.
As a fan base we must make a strong showing at march madness next year. Obviously it's easier if the team is winning, but regardless, if in lets make a commitment to arch madness.
If Valpo stays in the Horizon, I would like to see two actions items:
1. get rid of LeCrone. He is an overpaid schmck and makes Steinbrecher competent.
2. Move the post regular season tournament to to the new Wintrust arena in Chicago. there is more to do and better dining in Chicago.
Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2017, 06:40:28 AM
Quote from: nkvu on May 06, 2017, 12:17:40 AM
When NKU joined the Horizon I confess I enjoyed the fact that I could easily see Valpo play every year. When they played here in 2016 I actually saw my first game live since I was a student way back when. If they move to the MVC chances are I won't ever be able to see them live again. Still if that means they can play their conference tournament on a truely neutral site (assuming St. Louis doesn't move to the the MVC) I would support it. No excuses then if we gag in the conference tournament like we did the last two years. Every school will be in the same boat. And since I think the NCAA has made it abundantly clear that mid major conferences will not get more than one bid a truely neutral court conference tournament is extreemely important.
How far is Evansville or Indiana State? Can't be 3 hours, can it?
Almost exactly 3 hours from where I live to each.
I guess I qualify as an old-timer.
My initial reaction to the proposed move was that I enjoy going to games, watching the Crusaders win (rpi be damned, I leave the arc feeling better after a win than a loss to even a powerhouse) and watching Valpo in the NCAA. I figured that those feeling s would be less likely in the MVC. After reading all of the opinions ad nauseam, I have warmed to the idea of playing teams that have more tradition and were rivals in the past. I remember the floats from Homecoming parades when we would take on the Aces, and the banners from the ICC hanging in the gym. At this point, I'm not as invested as many of you whether we go or stay, but it would be demeaning if we don't get invited.
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 06, 2017, 08:47:00 AM
If Valpo stays in the Horizon, I would like to see two actions items:
1. get rid of LeCrone. He is an overpaid schmck and makes Steinbrecher competent.
2. Move the post regular season tournament to to the new Wintrust arena in Chicago. there is more to do and better dining in Chicago.
I would add one more:
3. add OCC scheduling standards to the HL. It is really important ALL schools pull their weight in OOC and don't schedule to many cupcake games that end up hurting the higher seeds. It would take will power from Presidents and ADs to this.
Quote from: M on May 05, 2017, 10:30:31 AM
Who cares?? That pole doesn't matter for anything.
If you don't see the pole while driving, it could mean quite a lot to you.
I just checked over on the Murray State message board too see what they're talking/feeling about the MVC and someone just posted this on their MVC discussion thread lol :rotfl:
"Over 1500 votes on Mark Adams' twitter poll over a few days. 50% Racers, 42% Crusaders, 5% Omaha, 3% Milwaukee.
Between that and posts on MVCfans/twitter, pretty clear the Valley audience clamors for both Murray/Valpo and 11.
Very obvious decision to make for the presidents. They risk public backlash if they only take Valpo for 10. Hopefully they stick with 11 to save MVCfans bandwidth from PantherU."
They aren't even in a conference with PantherU and he's already managed to annoy a large chunk of the MVC and Murray State fans lol.
https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17987&sid=6ce472438d9437f1d035f9ef1830d358&start=580
Quote from: VU2014 on May 06, 2017, 10:51:47 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 06, 2017, 08:47:00 AM
If Valpo stays in the Horizon, I would like to see two actions items:
1. get rid of LeCrone. He is an overpaid schmck and makes Steinbrecher competent.
2. Move the post regular season tournament to to the new Wintrust arena in Chicago. there is more to do and better dining in Chicago.
I would add one more:
3. add OCC scheduling standards to the HL. It is really important ALL schools pull their weight in OOC and don't schedule to many cupcake games that end up hurting the higher seeds. It would take will power from Presidents and ADs to this.
Not to beat a dead horse, but a big problem with the league has been teams that schedule too tough, not teams with too soft of schedules. UIC going winless out of conference is devastating to the conference. Had they scheduled some SWAC and MEAC teams a few years ago, the whole conferences RPI would have improved quite a bit.
Quote from: VU2014 on May 06, 2017, 02:14:21 PM
I just checked over on the Murray State message board too see what they're talking/feeling about the MVC and someone just posted this on their MVC discussion thread lol :rotfl:
"Over 1500 votes on Mark Adams' twitter poll over a few days. 50% Racers, 42% Crusaders, 5% Omaha, 3% Milwaukee.
Between that and posts on MVCfans/twitter, pretty clear the Valley audience clamors for both Murray/Valpo and 11.
Very obvious decision to make for the presidents. They risk public backlash if they only take Valpo for 10. Hopefully they stick with 11 to save MVCfans bandwidth from PantherU."
They aren't even in a conference with PantherU and he's already managed to annoy a large chunk of the MVC and Murray State fans lol.
https://www.racerfans.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17987&sid=6ce472438d9437f1d035f9ef1830d358&start=580
I'm not sold on ONLY Valpo or ONLY MSU. It's got to be both or nothing.
If they only add (1) school that program will be setup for hatred league wide for falling short. BECAUSE ANY SCHOOL REPLACING WSU WILL FALL SHORT IN THE 5-year.
What's a reason against making it 11-teams? Make a list like the MVC board has likely done.
1) revenue sharing reduction
2) ____________.
3) ____________.
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2017, 02:36:36 PMThen once We assumed the mantle and began dominating the league, miraculously everyone had a change of heart. So they vote to move the thing to Detroit and make up some bogus excuse about wanting to look like the big boys
I fear you are conflating the ADs with the fans here.
I've conversed with fans of other HL teams and every one of them has rejected my position that a neutral site (and getting rid of the double-byes) is the right thing to do. PantherU was quite vocal in 2016 that Valpo was getting screwed. And he's not the only one.
At the risk of :deadhorse: I'm going to state again that this idea of rewarding the best teams is flawed because the extravagance of reward is not suitable to the incredibly small sample size of games played. I continue to reject the notion that we have a reliable basis year in and year out to identify who the best teams are (and if we did it would be criminal to subject them to a full conference tournament, they should be able to just play each other for the auto-bid; if there's only one best team, then that team should just be given the auto-bid because they earned it).
As for moving to the MVC, obviously if Valpo receives the invite they can't be blamed by anyone for accepting it, and should probably strongly consider it. I should point out that the talk in here is starting to sound highly "Big-Time" and not in a good way, as if academics doesn't matter. Maybe that's not what people mean, but that's the way it comes across. I am allergic to any impulse to tell administrators to get out of the way of athletics. I don't think athletics should be subjugated to academics either (though they were at my alma mater - Rose Hulman Institute of Technologies - where coaches punished athletes if they cut a lab in order to practice with the team), but I think *both* are important and *both* deserve their due. I don't personally care about the quality of education at VU all that much because I'm not an alum and that's not what draws me. But I'm also not interested in telling teachers and admins to go fly a kite if they have concerns.
As for the bloodthirsty nature of conference realignment and the embrace of such here by some, I'm not a fan of that either. It made sense at the time and I warmed to it fairly quickly, but I was still sad to leave the Mid-Con because at the time, it left that conference weakened a bit. It seems they have recovered. But it's more than that. This idea that conference relationships are so transitory is kind of off-putting. I'm really enjoying all the new friends I've made in the HL, and if there weren't a conflict in schedule between the two - and assuming Valpo moves to the MVC - I'd probably still go to MCM next year as well as Arch Madness. I'm retiring soon, so I'll probably keep up the On The Horizon blog even if we leave, as well as start one about the Valley. I want to go see Valpo play at BB&T Arena many more times, and I always enjoy the Wisconsin trip, including friends I've made at both places.
And of course - warm up your groans, ladies and gentlemen - I want to keep making the Michigan trip. I want us to keep playing Oakland, and I want to keep in touch with my pal, coach Kampe. If it makes you feel any better, I don't blame you guys for being put off with some of the questionable characters he's recruited lately. They give me pause too.
I don't expect the mid-major conference landscape to stabilize into some idealistic promised land, and I don't expect individual schools not to evaluate their affiliations and try to improve them. I just find it distasteful, that's all.
And frankly, all of this shuffling around skirts the one core issue that none of our schools have much control over (which is why I don't blame them too much): the utter, corrupt travesty that is the state of non-conference scheduling in NCAA Division I sports. If the NCAA would get serious about solving that problem (and Mark Adams made a very worthy opening salvo in that conversation last year), we wouldn't *need* to be constantly searching for greener pastures every year. We wouldn't need to rig our conference tourneys to try to game out the maximum potential for NCAA tournament wins (again: if the perks are truly being earned, then we aren't going *far enough* - should just do away with tourney and send them - but I insist that the perks *aren't* truly earned). We could just freely admit that 18 games (playing each team only twice) is not enough to determine who stands out as the best team(s), and just enjoy the conventional conference tournament for what it is: a foretaste of March Madness.
By the way, I'll give you guys props for using the word "reward" rather than the word "protect" when referring to the "best teams". "Protect" has always absolutely rubbed me the wrong way. The notion that the "best team" needs to be protected - if that's not snowflake behavior then I don't understand what that word means.
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 06, 2017, 04:26:30 PM
We could just freely admit that 18 games (playing each team only twice) is not enough to determine who stands out as the best team
I'm not sure I am as willing to freely admit this merely on the basis stated here, since I believe there really are 90 games played (rather than just 18) in a 10-team home-and-home conference schedule. When one considers a 90-game sample with an 18-game sample, then the odds of the best team rising to the top seem more solid and the margin of error is reduced.
Quote from: a3uge on May 06, 2017, 02:47:41 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on May 06, 2017, 10:51:47 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on May 06, 2017, 08:47:00 AM
If Valpo stays in the Horizon, I would like to see two actions items:
1. get rid of LeCrone. He is an overpaid schmck and makes Steinbrecher competent.
2. Move the post regular season tournament to to the new Wintrust arena in Chicago. there is more to do and better dining in Chicago.
I would add one more:
3. add OCC scheduling standards to the HL. It is really important ALL schools pull their weight in OOC and don't schedule to many cupcake games that end up hurting the higher seeds. It would take will power from Presidents and ADs to this.
Not to beat a dead horse, but a big problem with the league has been teams that schedule too tough, not teams with too soft of schedules. UIC going winless out of conference is devastating to the conference. Had they scheduled some SWAC and MEAC teams a few years ago, the whole conferences RPI would have improved quite a bit.
That was the beef against Kampe early on, but he's switched his philosophy a bit which is better for OU and better for the HL.
Two things:
1. No disrespect to Mark Adams, a guy I like a lot, but any President or AD that takes a non-scientific, self-selecting Twitter poll from a third party into account in a decision of this magnitude that should be relieved of their duties by their BOT immediately.
2. Anyone who thinks staying in the HL is a viable option on the table here is kidding themselves. The MVC is a better league by every metric, even without Wichita. Valpo will *leap immediately* if offered, as they should. As I posted two weeks ago, quit overthinking this.
Re: Overthinking.
I stopped all types of thinking 3 days ago. I am now overwaiting. I have no control over nor input to the decision makers, so that is my only option. Between me and you, it has helped me sleep better lately.
ATHLETICS
Budgets, TV exposure, competition level among considerations for UNO in possible conference move
By Tony Boone / World-Herald staff writer May 6, 2017 Updated 1 hr ago
http://www.omaha.com/uno/budgets-tv-exposure-competition-level-among-considerations-for-uno-in/article_899c1962-c5df-50c0-81dc-8bfd4e22b70c.html
"...Horizon Commissioner Jonathan LeCrone said Friday that the MVC's visits, including to schools within his league (Valparaiso and Milwaukee), are no secret. He has spoken openly about his intention to expand and said the Horizon will stay true to its value and plan, which transcends any movement of members.
"Whether we're 10, whether we're eight, whether we're nine, we still have plans, no matter what our configuration is at any point in time, to grow larger," he said. "We think larger is better. We think divisional play is good. And we have lots of members on our membership candidate list who are very interested in helping us achieve that vision no matter what our current membership movement might be..."
Journal Star
Wessler: MVC schools need to fix themselves while determining new members
Saturday
Posted at 4:41 PM
http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20170506/wessler-mvc-schools-need-to-fix-themselves-while-determining-new-members
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2017, 09:51:15 PMWe think larger is better. We think divisional play is good.
Wow. When did this start? And who is we?
Quote from: agibson on May 06, 2017, 10:00:29 PM
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2017, 09:51:15 PMWe think larger is better. We think divisional play is good.
Wow. When did this start? And who is we?
Not sure who the "we" is either... His office or the Presidents? I honestly would like to privately gauge his approval rating of LeCrone among the HL Presidents & ADs because it is pretty low among the fan-bases from what I've heard and seen.
I've heard he's been wanting to expand to 12 for the last few years and he wants Omaha and possibly Denver. Also heard he's considering IUPUI or IPFW if Valpo leaves I guess. There was that rumor he was looking closely into New Mexico State last offseason... (I could not imagine the travel expenses for non-rev sports taking flights out there... SMH). Just my gut, but if the MVC doesn't take the Omaha as part of 12, then they will join the HL if the $ makes sense for them (I just complete speculation on my part on Omaha. Also UMKC might fit the HL's current model of large cities...
If the MVC takes Valpo then my guess is the HL will try like hell to add Belmont (again... & fail to persuade them). Then they will try and add Omaha, Denver or UMKC and one of the IPFW or IUPUI to try and go 12. I've see some people speculate Robert Morris but that be tough because they currently only sponsor 3 men's sports that the HL does currently.
We will see what happens I guess. I personally don't like divisions...
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 06, 2017, 04:26:30 PMAnd of course - warm up your groans, ladies and gentlemen
I really read this wrong and started to get a lap blanket out of the closet. ;)
My biggest fear is that we are the only school invited. That would make me question the entire MVC brain trust. I do not want to walk into the MVC fearing their decline and questioning their competence.
I'm snake bit. Having watched the rapid HL collapse has been a real slap in the face. I do not want to live through this again, even in a milder form.
Quote from: justducky on May 06, 2017, 10:30:43 PM
My biggest fear is that we are the only school invited. That would make me question the entire MVC brain trust. I do not want to walk into the MVC fearing their decline and questioning their competence.
I'm snake bit. Having watched the rapid HL collapse has been a real slap in the face. I do not want to live through this again, even in a milder form.
I hope we aren't the only invite either (I mean I'd take an invite any way we could get it but), I wouldn't think it would be a terrible thing if they invited Valpo this year and Murray State joins in 1-2yrs to figure out football. I heard that could be a problem for this upcoming season because its pretty late to switch the football conferences and the OVC likely won't do Murray State any favors if they are on the way out. I'd leave that 12th open for a 1-2 years to make sure you add the right team and not settle. I wouldn't mind Milwaukee but they aren't a "homerun" 3rd team. SLU is a pipe-dream and not happening. Possibly hope Belmont changes their mind in a few years. Even then Rick Bryd their coach is already 64 and he won't coach much longer likely... he's been their only D1 coach ever. Who knows how Belmont turns out after his retirement. I say role with 11 and play a 20 game conference regular season. Means they wouldn't have to go divisions.
Anyone who isn't on board with an MVC move hasn't been following their conference. They get multiple bids in just about every sport, though not as often recently in Men's Basketball. They get multiple bids in baseball, volleyball, softball, etc.
Quote from: valpotx on May 07, 2017, 01:34:09 AM
Anyone who isn't on board with an MVC move hasn't been following their conference. They get multiple bids in just about every sport, though not as often recently in Men's Basketball. They get multiple bids in baseball, volleyball, softball, etc.
That was at a time when WSU and CREIGHTON were in the league. ITS NOT THE SAME LEAGUE, just like the HL is not the same league post Butler.
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2017, 09:51:15 PM
ATHLETICS
Budgets, TV exposure, competition level among considerations for UNO in possible conference move
By Tony Boone / World-Herald staff writer May 6, 2017 Updated 1 hr ago
http://www.omaha.com/uno/budgets-tv-exposure-competition-level-among-considerations-for-uno-in/article_899c1962-c5df-50c0-81dc-8bfd4e22b70c.html
"...Horizon Commissioner Jonathan LeCrone said Friday that the MVC's visits, including to schools within his league (Valparaiso and Milwaukee), are no secret. He has spoken openly about his intention to expand and said the Horizon will stay true to its value and plan, which transcends any movement of members.
"Whether we're 10, whether we're eight, whether we're nine, we still have plans, no matter what our configuration is at any point in time, to grow larger," he said. "We think larger is better. We think divisional play is good. And we have lots of members on our membership candidate list who are very interested in helping us achieve that vision no matter what our current membership movement might be..."
LeCrone added..."We can't wait to add alphabet schools to our distinguished team roster"!
Quote from: valpopal on May 06, 2017, 05:51:49 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 06, 2017, 04:26:30 PM
We could just freely admit that 18 games (playing each team only twice) is not enough to determine who stands out as the best team
I'm not sure I am as willing to freely admit this merely on the basis stated here, since I believe there really are 90 games played (rather than just 18) in a 10-team home-and-home conference schedule. When one considers a 90-game sample with an 18-game sample, then the odds of the best team rising to the top seem more solid and the margin of error is reduced.
18 games per team is obviously what I meant. In that light, 90 games total is exactly as small a sample size as 18 per team is.
Lecrone sucks. I can't imagine having to "go back" and play in that league. Hopefully tomorrow the HL will now be in the rearview mirror.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 07, 2017, 11:31:49 AM
Lecrone sucks. I can't imagine having to "go back" and play in that league. Hopefully tomorrow the HL will now be in the rearview mirror.
With all the media-driven buildup and and fan anticipation across 2 leagues, being rejected by the MVC would be a PR disaster for Valparaiso University. Receiving an offer and rejecting it would be just about as bad. That would be the proverbial nail in the coffin for those who contend that the current administration is not committed to or engaged in elevating the profile of its flagship sport. Attendance will continue to decline, the student population will become more apathetic, and more blame-deflecting excuses will be propagated about how today's students just want to sit home alone with their electronic gadgets, and if only University/community relations were somehow better.
Is anyone else getting tired of the siren song of self-victimization?
Doesn't this thing go something like this...... MVC negotiates with it's identified candidadtes in secret (like the whole last two weeks). The candidate list is reduced to the top candidates based on their credentials but also the results of preliminary negotiation (i.e., basic stuff like willingness to pay exit and entry fees, acceptence of other stuff like how shares will be divided post-expansion). Once the one/two/three top candidates vying for the one/two/three slots are formally identified within the MVC, a final round on the specific details are negotiated, a commitment to join the MVC if asked is obtained from the candidate schools, the Presidents vote, and the invitees are announced.
If my speculation on the process is close, and Valpo has made it this far, there is no way at this point that Valpo will not accept the bid, if offered -- we've already made teh commitment. So that leaves only one negative scenario -- after all this, they decide to stay at 10 and we do not receive the Presidents' blessings Monday night and therefore never receive the invitation (but are thanked for our participation and given a consolation prize -- a small bronze statue of the St. Louis gateway arch).
Quote from: agibson on May 06, 2017, 10:00:29 PM
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2017, 09:51:15 PMWe think larger is better. We think divisional play is good.
Wow. When did this start? And who is we?
I can hardly believe my eyes. Did somebody kiss him on the mouth and wake him from his complacency induce coma!! Where was this attitude when Butler and then Loyola left!! Ach du liebe zeit what took you so long ??? If we leave, let alone UWM, he has no one to blame but himself for the decline of the HL. If the league had been aggressive we probably wouldn't be looking to leave.
Quote from: wh on May 07, 2017, 01:07:02 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 07, 2017, 11:31:49 AM
Lecrone sucks. I can't imagine having to "go back" and play in that league. Hopefully tomorrow the HL will now be in the rearview mirror.
With all the media-driven buildup and and fan anticipation across 2 leagues, being rejected by the MVC would be a PR disaster for Valparaiso University. Receiving an offer and rejecting it would be just about as bad. That would be the proverbial nail in the coffin for those who contend that the current administration is not committed to or engaged in elevating the profile of its flagship sport. Attendance will continue to decline, the student population will become more apathetic, and more blame-deflecting excuses will be propagated about how today's students just want to sit home alone with their electronic gadgets, and if only University/community relations were somehow better.
Is anyone else getting tired of the siren song of self-victimization?
Can't tell if you're blaming the students or not? The students didn't show up last year for a first place team and I'm pretty sure Duke students have access to electronic gadgets in their homes but they still manage to represent. If the students only realized how important they were to the team. They could make or break a season.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: wh on May 07, 2017, 01:07:02 PM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 07, 2017, 11:31:49 AM
Lecrone sucks. I can't imagine having to "go back" and play in that league. Hopefully tomorrow the HL will now be in the rearview mirror.
With all the media-driven buildup and and fan anticipation across 2 leagues, being rejected by the MVC would be a PR disaster for Valparaiso University. Receiving an offer and rejecting it would be just about as bad. That would be the proverbial nail in the coffin for those who contend that the current administration is not committed to or engaged in elevating the profile of its flagship sport. Attendance will continue to decline, the student population will become more apathetic, and more blame-deflecting excuses will be propagated about how today's students just want to sit home alone with their electronic gadgets, and if only University/community relations were somehow better.
Is anyone else getting tired of the siren song of self-victimization?
Agreed it would be a PR hit to the University and our Athletics if we didn't get an invite now after all the media buzz and seemingly a very large majority of the Valpo fan-base wants to join the MVC. Not a single member of the Valpo administration or staff has commented publicly about the MVC. They didn't even acknowledge the MVC was on campus and visited. Maybe that has to do with Conference negotiations or maybe they are just very old school... I feel like with how public the Murray State administration has been they may have given up some leverage in some negotiations with the MVC. Also it may be more of a let down for their fan-base/alumni if they don't get the invite... Maybe that was one reason our administration hasn't even acknowledged the MVC.
I do fear if we don't at least get the invite from the MVC then this could be a huge let down to the alumni/fan-base. I was talking to a friend who is a senior on campus about the MVC the other day and he said that everyone has been talking about it on campus amongst the students & even some faculty. I am a little worried about the potential let down and apathy setting in among fans.
It also would feel like a bit of a slap in the face of Valpo to not get an invite at this point. Hopefully we get an invite tomorrow.
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 07, 2017, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: valpopal on May 06, 2017, 05:51:49 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 06, 2017, 04:26:30 PM
We could just freely admit that 18 games (playing each team only twice) is not enough to determine who stands out as the best team
I'm not sure I am as willing to freely admit this merely on the basis stated here, since I believe there really are 90 games played (rather than just 18) in a 10-team home-and-home conference schedule. When one considers a 90-game sample with an 18-game sample, then the odds of the best team rising to the top seem more solid and the margin of error is reduced.
18 games per team is obviously what I meant. In that light, 90 games total is exactly as small a sample size as 18 per team is.
The sample must be big enough to be highly reliable. Of all the conferences this past season, only two had a first-place regular season champion that did not also have the highest RPI ranking in their conference. In both cases the second-place team was the highest ranked in RPI, and one by only a single spot in the overall rankings. That's about a 95% accuracy.
With the MVC President's meeting Monday night (in St. Louis I presume) would the following scenario play out?
🏀 Immediately after the decision, the Athletic Director and University President of each invited school is called.
🏀 Those individuals either book a flight or hop in a car Monday AM and drive to St. Louis to be in attendance for the official announcement and press conference.
🏀 Press Conference and announcement probably mid-late afternoon on Tuesday.
:welcome: :cheers:
Quote from: Just Sayin on May 06, 2017, 01:58:32 PM
Quote from: M on May 05, 2017, 10:30:31 AM
Who cares?? That pole doesn't matter for anything.
If you don't see the pole while driving, it could mean quite a lot to you.
Most of the time race car drivers are looking to get the pole. Funny thing is I don't pay much attention to racing.
As far as other sports I already saw that 3 schools are associate members of the MVC in men's soccer. I seem to recall that Dallas Baptist plays baseball in the MVC. Is that going to happen in 17-18?
Quote from: bbtds on May 07, 2017, 05:29:34 PM
Quote from: Just Sayin on May 06, 2017, 01:58:32 PM
Quote from: M on May 05, 2017, 10:30:31 AM
Who cares?? That pole doesn't matter for anything.
If you don't see the pole while driving, it could mean quite a lot to you.
Most of the time race car drivers are looking to get the pole. Funny thing is I don't pay much attention to racing.
And having a last name that ends in 'zky' I resent the fact that even just one Pole does not matter.
Central Arkansas is the only associate member. Southland conference does not have men's soccer.
Quote from: valpopal on May 07, 2017, 03:47:10 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 07, 2017, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: valpopal on May 06, 2017, 05:51:49 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 06, 2017, 04:26:30 PM
We could just freely admit that 18 games (playing each team only twice) is not enough to determine who stands out as the best team
I'm not sure I am as willing to freely admit this merely on the basis stated here, since I believe there really are 90 games played (rather than just 18) in a 10-team home-and-home conference schedule. When one considers a 90-game sample with an 18-game sample, then the odds of the best team rising to the top seem more solid and the margin of error is reduced.
18 games per team is obviously what I meant. In that light, 90 games total is exactly as small a sample size as 18 per team is.
The sample must be big enough to be highly reliable. Of all the conferences this past season, only two had a first-place regular season champion that did not also have the highest RPI ranking in their conference. In both cases the second-place team was the highest ranked in RPI, and one by only a single spot in the overall rankings. That's about a 95% accuracy.
I don't think I'm getting through to you. 18 games is nowhere near enough time to be satisfied that all the weird stuff evens out (lucky bounces, crucial bad calls, freak injuries, schedule quirks - some teams having longer road trips and more busy streaks than other teams, etc.). You only play each time twice. Very shaky. To say nothing of having to settle who the #1 seed is by a frigging tiebreaker. Billy Donlon was absolutely right last year when he complained about losing the double-bye because of a tiebreaker.
There's no way they can play enough games to iron out all the wrinkles and give a reliable read. There's only one of the four major sports - and then only at one level - where the regular season is large enough to prove who the best team is simply by looking at the standings: Major League Baseball (by best team, obviously I mean best team in each division).
By the way, just in case you're interested, this is why I am adamantly opposed (for all the good it does me) to the wildcard system in MLB. I'll never get my way, but I'll never give in, either ;)
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 07, 2017, 07:03:44 PM
Central Arkansas is the only associate member. Southland conference does not have men's soccer.
According to the MVC website men's soccer includes Central Arkansas and Southern Illinois of the Edwardsville variety. Carbondale does not have men's soccer.
Baseball finished
Missouri State
Dallas Baptist
Indiana State
Wichita State
Southern Illinois (Carbondale)
Evansville
Bradley
Illinois State
Volleyball
Missouri State 16-2 26-9
Wichita State 15-3 24-8
UNI 14-4 24-10
Southern Illinois 12-6 21-12
Illinois State 9-9 17-15
Loyola 9-9 14-18
Drake 8-10 17-15
Indiana State 4-14 10-20
Bradley 2-16 7-22
Evansville 1-17 5-26
Women's soccer
Illinois State 5-0-1 14-6-3
Evansville 3-2-1 4-12-3
UNI 2-2-2 8-8-3
Indiana State 2-3-1 7-11-2
Drake 2-3-1 12-4-3
Loyola 2-4-0 5-11-3
Missouri State 1-3-2 5-8-4
Men's soccer standings
Loyola 6-1-1 14-4-1
SIUE 4-1-3 10-5-7
Evansville 4-2-2 10-8-3
Central Arkansas 4-3-1 7-7-3
Missouri State 3-4-1 9-8-3
Drake 2-5-1 6-12-1
Bradley 0-7-1 2-15-3
Very little to compare, but MSO is always +/- 1 with Loyola. (Agibson?) I think WSO is about the same. In volleyball, I am guessing we will fall into the middle of the pack to start. But I also also think that with being in the MVC we will get that one or two difference makers and get back to being in the title hunt.
Bsseball and softball is Tex's domain.
Tennis and golf are strange given the MVC setup. I can' figure where we'd fit. We definitely are losing two great players in MT.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 07, 2017, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 07, 2017, 01:34:09 AM
Anyone who isn't on board with an MVC move hasn't been following their conference. They get multiple bids in just about every sport, though not as often recently in Men's Basketball. They get multiple bids in baseball, volleyball, softball, etc.
That was at a time when WSU and CREIGHTON were in the league. ITS NOT THE SAME LEAGUE, just like the HL is not the same league post Butler.
No, it was not. Wichita State and Creighton were not the reason that the MVC received multiple bids in sports outside of Men's Basketball. Let's look at 2 examples:
Baseball - 1 bid by Dallas Baptist in 2016, but 3 in 2015 with Bradley, Missouri State, and Dallas Baptist. Missouri State is currently leading the conference, while Wichita State is middle of the pack. Survey says, Wichita State is not the reason they received multiple bids in Baseball recently. Conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
Volleyball - 3 bids in 2016 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, and Wichita State, but 4 in 2015 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, and Wichita State. Survey says, conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
The conference is in much better position to get multiple bids in all sports, versus what we have in the HL. I know that Men's Basketball hasn't been as successful recently in gaining multiple bids, but is in obvious position to have that possibility, much more so than the HL.
Quote from: valpopal on May 07, 2017, 03:47:10 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 07, 2017, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: valpopal on May 06, 2017, 05:51:49 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 06, 2017, 04:26:30 PM
We could just freely admit that 18 games (playing each team only twice) is not enough to determine who stands out as the best team
I'm not sure I am as willing to freely admit this merely on the basis stated here, since I believe there really are 90 games played (rather than just 18) in a 10-team home-and-home conference schedule. When one considers a 90-game sample with an 18-game sample, then the odds of the best team rising to the top seem more solid and the margin of error is reduced.
18 games per team is obviously what I meant. In that light, 90 games total is exactly as small a sample size as 18 per team is.
The sample must be big enough to be highly reliable. Of all the conferences this past season, only two had a first-place regular season champion that did not also have the highest RPI ranking in their conference. In both cases the second-place team was the highest ranked in RPI, and one by only a single spot in the overall rankings. That's about a 95% accuracy.
• Since 1992, 12 of 24 teams that won the National Championship lost in their conference tournament. So much for theories that conference tournaments somehow determine the best team, best team at that point in the season, blah, blah, blah.
Other fun facts:
• Half of the national champions in the past quarter century wouldn't have even been in the tournament had they come from single bid conferences like the HL and MVC. What??
• The last four, as well as five of the last six NCAA Tournament champions, fell in their conference tournaments.
• 7 of the 12 national champions that lost in their conference tournaments didn't even play in the conference tournament championship game. This includes 2017 national champion North Carolina. The Tar Heels won the ACC regular season championship by 2 games, then lost in the ACC Tournament semi-finals.
All these theories about conference tournaments revealing the best team is just fodder for fan message boards. A single weekend, single-elimination event where the championship team doesn't even play 2/3 of the teams in the field is a pathetic indicator of anything meaningful when compared to the regular season where every team plays every other team twice. Conferences went for decades without tournaments. It wasn't until the advent of big TV contracts that conference tournaments became popular. It's just another money grab disguised as something important and necessary in order to lure the paying public in. Sports marketing at its best. ;)
March Madness: How did the last 25 national champions do in their conference tournaments?https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ncaa.com/amp/news/basketball-men/bracket-beat/2017-03-07/march-madness-how-did-last-25-national-champions-do
Stlvufan says 18 games to small a sample size to determine the best team. I believe 10 team tournament at "neutral" site is too small of a sample size.
HL has to find a way to send its best team.
By your measurement then the NCAA tournament is another example of too small a sample size. The reason the Big Dance is so exciting is due to the small sample size. Small sample size is the reason college basketball is so much better at establishing excitement among the fans than the NBA.
Quote from: bbtds on May 08, 2017, 06:45:13 AM
By your measurement then the NCAA tournament is another example of too small a sample size. The reason the Big Dance is so exciting is due to the small sample size. Small sample size is the reason college basketball is so much better at establishing excitement among the fans than the NBA.
As a matter of fact, statistically it is a completely meaningless sample size. That said, logistically there is no better method of determining the "best" among 68 teams that may or may not have played each other during the regular season.
Quote from: valpotx on May 08, 2017, 05:04:52 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 07, 2017, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 07, 2017, 01:34:09 AM
Anyone who isn't on board with an MVC move hasn't been following their conference. They get multiple bids in just about every sport, though not as often recently in Men's Basketball. They get multiple bids in baseball, volleyball, softball, etc.
That was at a time when WSU and CREIGHTON were in the league. ITS NOT THE SAME LEAGUE, just like the HL is not the same league post Butler.
No, it was not. Wichita State and Creighton were not the reason that the MVC received multiple bids in sports outside of Men's Basketball. Let's look at 2 examples:
Baseball - 1 bid by Dallas Baptist in 2016, but 3 in 2015 with Bradley, Missouri State, and Dallas Baptist. Missouri State is currently leading the conference, while Wichita State is middle of the pack. Survey says, Wichita State is not the reason they received multiple bids in Baseball recently. Conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
Volleyball - 3 bids in 2016 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, and Wichita State, but 4 in 2015 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, and Wichita State. Survey says, conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
The conference is in much better position to get multiple bids in all sports, versus what we have in the HL. I know that Men's Basketball hasn't been as successful recently in gaining multiple bids, but is in obvious position to have that possibility, much more so than the HL.
MBB is all I care about, sadly.
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 07, 2017, 07:26:50 PM
18 games per team is obviously what I meant. In that light, 90
I don't think I'm getting through to you. 18 games is nowhere near enough time to be satisfied that all the weird stuff evens out (lucky bounces, crucial bad calls, freak injuries, schedule quirks - some teams having longer road trips and more busy streaks than other teams, etc.). You only play each time twice. Very shaky. To say nothing of having to settle who the #1 seed is by a frigging tiebreaker. Billy Donlon was absolutely right last year when he complained about losing the double-bye because of a tiebreaker.
There's no way they can play enough games to iron out all the wrinkles and give a reliable read. There's only one of the four major sports - and then only at one level - where the regular season is large enough to prove who the best team is simply by looking at the standings: Major League Baseball (by best team, obviously I mean best team in each division).
By the way, just in case you're interested, this is why I am adamantly opposed (for all the good it does me) to the wildcard system in MLB. I'll never get my way, but I'll never give in, either ;)
Here's where you lose me. In a 10 team, double round robin, every team gets a pair of games, one home one away, against the other 9. If that isn't the most equitable way to determine a conference champion given the NCAA restrictions, I don't know what is. It's certainly more reasonable that a 3-5 day single elimination tournament making kids play back to backs for the first time all season.
I struggle with the idea of conference tournaments in 1 bid leagues. You aren't doing anyone any favors putting a mid-league finisher in the tournament over your best team from the last 12 weeks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 08, 2017, 07:39:58 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 08, 2017, 05:04:52 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 07, 2017, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 07, 2017, 01:34:09 AM
Anyone who isn't on board with an MVC move hasn't been following their conference. They get multiple bids in just about every sport, though not as often recently in Men's Basketball. They get multiple bids in baseball, volleyball, softball, etc.
That was at a time when WSU and CREIGHTON were in the league. ITS NOT THE SAME LEAGUE, just like the HL is not the same league post Butler.
No, it was not. Wichita State and Creighton were not the reason that the MVC received multiple bids in sports outside of Men's Basketball. Let's look at 2 examples:
Baseball - 1 bid by Dallas Baptist in 2016, but 3 in 2015 with Bradley, Missouri State, and Dallas Baptist. Missouri State is currently leading the conference, while Wichita State is middle of the pack. Survey says, Wichita State is not the reason they received multiple bids in Baseball recently. Conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
Volleyball - 3 bids in 2016 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, and Wichita State, but 4 in 2015 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, and Wichita State. Survey says, conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
The conference is in much better position to get multiple bids in all sports, versus what we have in the HL. I know that Men's Basketball hasn't been as successful recently in gaining multiple bids, but is in obvious position to have that possibility, much more so than the HL.
MBB is all I care about, sadly.
And fortunately for us, MBB seems to be the only thing the Valley is focused on. Although we have had some success in other sports in recent years, this year, with softball and baseball to go, other then a tie for the regular season basketball title, the only champion we have had was Men's Tennis. Wow! Talk about a run on sentence!!
Quote from: oklahomamick on May 08, 2017, 06:11:59 AM
Stlvufan says 18 games to small a sample size to determine the best team. I believe 10 team tournament at "neutral" site is too small of a sample size.
HL has to find a way to send its best team.
There is no way to send your best team. I never said the conference tournament was a big enough sample size. You send your champion, not your best team. You hope your champion *is* your best team, but that's about the best you can do. Sort of like the slogan that used to appear on the big wall-size brackets NIPSCO used to hand out for Hoosier Hysteria when I was a kid (well, my Mom worked there and I always got one):
"May the best team win." (Notice that it is a plea, not a prediction or an equation)
Quote from: bbtds on May 08, 2017, 06:45:13 AMBy your measurement then the NCAA tournament is another example of too small a sample size.
Yes.
There is no solution to the small sample size problem in MBB. Maybe I'm not making that clear enough. My argument is that we should dispense with this notion of identifying "best teams", at least when it comes to rigging conference tournaments.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on May 08, 2017, 07:43:22 AM
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 07, 2017, 07:26:50 PM
18 games per team is obviously what I meant. In that light, 90
I don't think I'm getting through to you. 18 games is nowhere near enough time to be satisfied that all the weird stuff evens out (lucky bounces, crucial bad calls, freak injuries, schedule quirks - some teams having longer road trips and more busy streaks than other teams, etc.). You only play each time twice. Very shaky. To say nothing of having to settle who the #1 seed is by a frigging tiebreaker. Billy Donlon was absolutely right last year when he complained about losing the double-bye because of a tiebreaker.
There's no way they can play enough games to iron out all the wrinkles and give a reliable read. There's only one of the four major sports - and then only at one level - where the regular season is large enough to prove who the best team is simply by looking at the standings: Major League Baseball (by best team, obviously I mean best team in each division).
By the way, just in case you're interested, this is why I am adamantly opposed (for all the good it does me) to the wildcard system in MLB. I'll never get my way, but I'll never give in, either ;)
Here's where you lose me. In a 10 team, double round robin, every team gets a pair of games, one home one away, against the other 9. If that isn't the most equitable way to determine a conference champion given the NCAA restrictions, I don't know what is. It's certainly more reasonable that a 3-5 day single elimination tournament making kids play back to backs for the first time all season.
I struggle with the idea of conference tournaments in 1 bid leagues. You aren't doing anyone any favors putting a mid-league finisher in the tournament over your best team from the last 12 weeks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Apparently I am losing people because I'm not making myself understood very well.
This was not an argument for a better way to determine who the best team is. My argument is there is no statistically reliable way to determine that, so why pretend?
The 18 game regular season + a conference tournament seeded according to that regular season *is* the best way to determine a champion (not the best team).
I don't attend the conference tournament to find out who the best team is. I attend the conference tournament to see mayhem and which team will be left standing. I've given up the fantasy of seeing definitive proof who the best team is.
20115-2016 Crusader team, best team in the HL that year? With the format of 18 games and a conference tournament (lack of sample size...) we can't make that decision.
Of course they were, they set a scoring margin record in the HL. 18 games was plenty of sample size.
I respectively disagree that playing each team twice home/away is enough sample size to identify the best team out of 10.
Quote from: StlVUFan on May 08, 2017, 08:40:17 AMYou send your champion, not your best team. You hope your champion *is* your best team
Instead of hoping....How can the conference manipulate the tournament so that the champion is your best team?
The HL representative indeed should be the best team. LeCrone was innovative (and probably listened to Butler) came up with the double byes and champion hosting. LeCrone thinking outside the box and a pioneer at the time (or just listened to Butler). LeCrone did not follow, "what are the others doing" method.
Instead he took small guaranteed cash (cash in which i hope we use to pay exit fee to leave this :censored: show) LeCrone moved it to Detroit (probably listened to Kampe).
*Disclaimer - StLVUfan I respect what your saying and understand. I just don't agree. But thats what the forum is for, fans expressing their thoughts and opinions. Every game I attend I always look for you to say hello. You are a big fan of VU and even a larger fan of college hoops.
Maybe StLU thinks every conference team should play a 7-game series against every other team. 3 at home, 3 on the road and one neutral site - just to be fair - and THEN we have an accurate reading of who the best team is. Maybe. But then he'd still want to take his trip to Detroit.
Quote from: Valpo89 on May 08, 2017, 09:46:34 AM
Maybe StLU thinks every conference team should play a 7-game series against every other team. 3 at home, 3 on the road and one neutral site - just to be fair - and THEN we have an accurate reading of who the best team is. Maybe. But then he'd still want to take his trip to Detroit.
Only if the neutral site games are played in Detroit...wouldn't want to upset Kampe.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ki
Quote from: Dave_2010 on May 08, 2017, 09:52:18 AMQuote from: Valpo89 on May 08, 2017, 09:46:34 AMMaybe StLU thinks every conference team should play a 7-game series against every other team. 3 at home, 3 on the road and one neutral site - just to be fair - and THEN we have an accurate reading of who the best team is. Maybe. But then he'd still want to take his trip to Detroit.
Only if the neutral site games are played in Detroit...wouldn't want to upset Kampe. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
King Kampe to you
Former UNI Athletic Director and a current Division I college basketball official Rick Hartzell (refs a lot of Valpo Games at the ARC), went on a UNI radio station to talk about MVC expansion talk and he almost talks about Valpo going to the MVC as a fait accompli. They talk for 20-30 minutes and its very heavy talking about Valpo that whole time. He talks about what he thinks of the ARC and about how he see Valpo as a fit from his point of view from a former MVC athletics director point of view.
Worth a listen, imo. (start at 21:50).
http://onpressrow.com/test/2017/05/04/on-press-row-5417-presented-by-whiskey-road-tavern-grill/
Seems like Mark Adams thinks they will only be adding 1 school this time around...
https://twitter.com/MichaelSprieser/status/861393991694200837
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/861538256625831936
:twocents: Not good. Should be at least 2 or even 3. :twocents:
In the meantime we wait 🕑 ..... and wait 🕔 ...... and wait 🕖 .
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 08, 2017, 11:24:40 AM
:twocents: Not good. Should be at least 2 or even 3. :twocents:
In the meantime we wait 🕑 ..... and wait 🕔 ...... and wait 🕖 .
Maybe they add Valpo for next season and phase in Murray State (football) over the next few years?
Valpo & Murray State seem like good adds, but there is no "obvious" 3rd team right now.
I really think Omaha would be a complete reach for the MVC. They have only a 1.2M budget and they are in debt on their new arena. Draw less then 1,900 people to games. Never won the summit even and only been a full D1 team for 2-3 years I believe. They have market going for them but they are deep in the shadow of Creighton. They just don't seem ready for that big of a leap.
My gut says Omaha will be in the Horizon League at some point in the next 1-2 years.
I'm sure if only 1 is added, the sky will fall, at least according to us fans. But i'm willing to give the MVC some time on this. I would much rather they take their time and make a push for Belmont, or give UWM a chance to prove they're indeed in a turnaround, or give Murray State a chance to work out their football, rather than just plowing forward. You can dangle a bid for a couple of years and see who most wants and earns it.
That's assuming if there is only 1, we're it. If not, screw em all. :lol:
Quote from: VU2014 on May 08, 2017, 10:13:22 AMwent on a UNI radio station to talk about UNI expansion talk and he almost talks about Valpo going to the MVC as a fait accompli. They talk for 20-30 minutes and its very heavy talking about Valpo that whole time. He talks about what he thinks of the ARC and about
What I've listened to so far is interesting.
The host cites Mark Adams for his certainty that it's Valpo and only Valpo. The guest doesn't seem to separately evaluate the evidence. But definitely weighs in on what he thinks of the choice (a pretty good choice; probably the best the Valley could manage, a big step up for Valpo). His impressions of the ARC are interesting. He suggests it seats 3K and is regularly full. And that basketball facilities in particular will need attention.
Interesting stuff.
Quote from: VU2014 on May 08, 2017, 10:13:22 AM
Former UNI Athletic Director and a current Division I college basketball official Rick Hartzell (refs a lot of Valpo Games at the ARC), went on a UNI radio station to talk about MVC expansion talk and he almost talks about Valpo going to the MVC as a fait accompli. They talk for 20-30 minutes and its very heavy talking about Valpo that whole time. He talks about what he thinks of the ARC and about how he see Valpo as a fit from his point of view from a former MVC athletics director point of view.
Worth a listen, imo. (start at 21:50).
http://onpressrow.com/test/2017/05/04/on-press-row-5417-presented-by-whiskey-road-tavern-grill/
The interview was based on Adams' speculation that it was only Valpo as the #1 pick, so that's why Hartzell talked so much about us. He also thought while 10 was a good number in the past, that the MVC should probably think a little out of the box and go with more than just 1. He did mention that the ARC held about 3,000 and was filled many of the games he reffed but would need to be upgraded. 3000? 😖
EDIT: I guess we kinda posted simultaneously. We definitely heard the same things.
Quote from: VU2014 on May 08, 2017, 10:13:22 AM
Former UNI Athletic Director and a current Division I college basketball official Rick Hartzell (refs a lot of Valpo Games at the ARC), went on a UNI radio station to talk about MVC expansion talk and he almost talks about Valpo going to the MVC as a fait accompli. They talk for 20-30 minutes and its very heavy talking about Valpo that whole time. He talks about what he thinks of the ARC and about how he see Valpo as a fit from his point of view from a former MVC athletics director point of view.
Worth a listen, imo. (start at 21:50).
http://onpressrow.com/test/2017/05/04/on-press-row-5417-presented-by-whiskey-road-tavern-grill
This guy Rick Hartzell didn't impress me very much. He says he has refereed many games at Valpo but can't pronounce the name even when the commentator is saying it correctly. Next he thinks our floor is hard when it has been replaced in the last couple of years. Thenhe thinks our "gym" seats 3000 and then that Belmont has a better basketball program than Valpo. Finally he wonders about Valpo competing when our recent history in several sports says otherwise.
Please, let's get this done with. :(
With all the games Hartzell said he has officiated at VU, one would think that he should know the ARC's capacity was around 5,000+ and that the school name was not ValpaRISEo. He liked to think that he knew everything about the situation but what I wonder is why is he no longer the AD at No. Iowa?
Rick is also a long time college basketball official. He's seen basketball in all types of facilities.
He's very hit or miss with the UNI fan base.
Many think he did great things, but he sold our soul for infalted attendance numbres. Almost all of our money issues the last 8 years are because of him
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 08, 2017, 11:52:25 AM
Quote from: VU2014 on May 08, 2017, 10:13:22 AM
Former UNI Athletic Director and a current Division I college basketball official Rick Hartzell (refs a lot of Valpo Games at the ARC), went on a UNI radio station to talk about MVC expansion talk and he almost talks about Valpo going to the MVC as a fait accompli. They talk for 20-30 minutes and its very heavy talking about Valpo that whole time. He talks about what he thinks of the ARC and about how he see Valpo as a fit from his point of view from a former MVC athletics director point of view.
Worth a listen, imo. (start at 21:50).
http://onpressrow.com/test/2017/05/04/on-press-row-5417-presented-by-whiskey-road-tavern-grill/
He did mention that the ARC held about 3,000 and was filled many of the games he reffed but would need to be upgraded. 3000? 😖
I cringed a bit when I heard him say the ARC only had a capacity of 3,000 (we avg more then 3,000). I sort of just shrugged it off. He's a ref not a fan sitting in the stands taking in the game, probably pretty concentrating on the game and not looking up into the crowd. Maybe he misspoke or just assumed. We drew over 5,500 for the St. Mary's game during the NIT game a little over a year ago.
I'm not sure if heard anything or if he was just basing it off the Adams report. I talk to one of the UNI fans about it and they said Rick Hartzell is as plugged into the MVC as anyone, so he may have heard something similar to Mark Adams about Valpo being a likely add.
He still had a lot of other interesting things to say about Valpo and the MVC Conference.
I agree with him that it may have been time for Wichita State to leave. It may be a blessing disguise to have them leave because they were more th doubling the next highest budget in the MVC (Bradley) and outspending everyone. Might wake up some programs and administrators from taking a defeatist attitude towards MBB.
The New Valley Starts...Tomorrow?
By Harry Schroeder on May 8, 2017
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/the-new-valley-startstomorrow/
Quote from: VU2014 on May 08, 2017, 12:20:13 PM
The New Valley Starts...Tomorrow?
By Harry Schroeder on May 8, 2017
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/the-new-valley-startstomorrow/
From the article:
"Others (this writer included) believe the aggressive decision (adding three teams) is not only about making the big splash, but also adding solid programs with winning traditions (Valpo and Murray State) and a program on the rise, which would characterize both Milwaukee and Omaha."
If Milwaukee is "a program on the rise," Valpo's program is in shambles.
I do really like the UWM hire but I'm not sure if I would characterize them as "on the rise" either.
They have potential to improve the next few years but this current staff they have is still unproven in recruiting and OOC scheduleing. Also their Athletics Department is pretty toxic right now.
If were the MVC I would wait on inviting them and see another 1-2yrs of results of the program. I don't think the HL can grow or make its self as attractive as some think they can be in a few years to entice teams to stay.
I do think HL will be better the next few years but I don't trust coaches to stay around if they start having success with those programs.
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2017, 12:47:08 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on May 08, 2017, 12:20:13 PM
The New Valley Starts...Tomorrow?
By Harry Schroeder on May 8, 2017
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/the-new-valley-startstomorrow/
From the article:
"Others (this writer included) believe the aggressive decision (adding three teams) is not only about making the big splash, but also adding solid programs with winning traditions (Valpo and Murray State) and a program on the rise, which would characterize both Milwaukee and Omaha."
If Milwaukee is "a program on the rise," Valpo's program is in shambles.
Next to that article by Harry Schroeder on the right side are "related articles.' One is
A Closer Look at Milwaukee (Part 3)Authored by Jimmy Lemke (@PantherU) for Valley Hoops
Jimmy does a pretty good job of justifying, from his perspective, Milwaukee's place at the table as a #3 choice, acknowledging that Valpo and MuSU should go before his Pathers. But if a #3 is to be added now his arguments are pretty decent. BTW, I didn't realize that they sunk $10 million into Pather Arena in 2014.
Quote from: VULB#62 on May 08, 2017, 01:05:52 PM
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2017, 12:47:08 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on May 08, 2017, 12:20:13 PM
The New Valley Starts...Tomorrow?
By Harry Schroeder on May 8, 2017
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/the-new-valley-startstomorrow/
From the article:
"Others (this writer included) believe the aggressive decision (adding three teams) is not only about making the big splash, but also adding solid programs with winning traditions (Valpo and Murray State) and a program on the rise, which would characterize both Milwaukee and Omaha."
If Milwaukee is "a program on the rise," Valpo's program is in shambles.
Next to that article by Harry Schroeder on the right side are "related article.s' One is
A Closer Look at Milwaukee (Part 3)
Authored by Jimmy Lemke (@PantherU) for Valley Hoops
Jimmy does a pretty good job of justifying, from his perspective, Milwaukee's place at the table as a #3 choice, acknowledging that Valpo and MuSU should go before his Pathers. But if a #3 is added his arguments are pretty decent. BTW, I didn't realize that they sunk $10 million into Pather Arena in 2014.
Jimmy's opinion and ideas could literally change every hour. He's always trying to sell people on Milwaukee.
I remember a few days ago he was singing the praise of Valpo when it seemed like the MVC was going to go 12 and UWM would seem like the sensible 12th. And then Mark Adams tweeted that he heard Valpo would likely be the 10th and only member of the MVC and then the next day he start $hitting on Valpo. He is completely bipolar on his arguments and his statements change depending on the party & forum he is speaking too. I honestly respect his passion for the UWM athletics (particularly basketball). But I always try and step back when I hear his arguments to try & objectively look at what his end game is which is to convince people on UWM and sell people on them.
Since this article series he's been trying to lobby Murray State to join the HL if the MVC only takes Valpo this year.
Milwaukee in 2017 is the equivalent of Loyola last time around (and NKU in the last round of Horizon expansion).
The potential to be a strong member exists, but it hasn't been proven yet. Even if you give Jimmy the benefit of the doubt re: the team improving long-term, there are still serious structural questions to address.
Assuming the game of musical ADs (by far its biggest issue) is finally over, MKE still has serious concerns to address. Where the Panthers rank in the city's sporting priority list (#4 in basketball alone) is a cause for concern with me. The key to getting and maintaining local interest is media coverage. If you aren't getting ink/airtime it's and uphill battle. No matter how many games they win, I just can't see them jumping the Bucks, Badgers, and Marquette in terms of local attention.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1 of the worst seasons in Milwaukee D-1 history ended like 8 weeks ago, and they're a program "on the rise?" Why, because Jimmy said so? Because the bar is so low they can't help but improve? Because a 1500 fans/game average at a school of 20-30,000 students can't possibly go lower?
Just trying to understand...
If we are the chosen one, can we figure that the up-coming season will be in "The Valley"?
I posed this question to the MVC beat reporters and this was their responses:
https://twitter.com/KirkWessler/status/861638135570198529
https://twitter.com/KirkWessler/status/861641174754496512
https://twitter.com/THefferman/status/861328214928633856
https://twitter.com/THefferman/status/861328126105845762
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/861329610830749697
https://twitter.com/PaulSuellentrop/status/861403554329878528
https://twitter.com/CJCunningham3/status/861329230747009024
https://twitter.com/Jim_Connell_417/status/861330471812300805
https://twitter.com/ECP_Allar/status/861341279128608769
Todd Aaron Golden didn't respond to the tweet but he tweet this out a little while ago (he hasn't said this but I get the sense he wants Murray State over Valpo because he thinks the Publics pull their weight more then Private schools. I think he thinks Valpo because Private Presidents may want Private)
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/861637205852401668
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/861637993098096642
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/861638386033012741
https://twitter.com/TribStarTodd/status/861638698655514624
His article about the Public vs Private split in the MVC (I highly encourage you all give this a read, gives it an interesting look into the MVC background)
http://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_college_sports/isu_sports/todd-aaron-golden-mvc-private-schools-flex-muscles-in-board/article_b1c27388-f594-54f1-9380-321e70e028e6.html
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2017, 01:16:25 PM
1 of the worst seasons in Milwaukee D-1 history ended like 8 weeks ago, and they're a program "on the rise?" Why, because Jimmy said so? Because the bar is so low they can't help but improve? Because a 1500 fans/game average at a school of 20-30,000 students can't possibly go lower?
Just trying to understand...
Yeah, pretty much everything he wrote in the piece was about the future, potential, possibilities and so on (found it interesting that he even complimented the AD's tough standards for winning. He wrote volumes against her only 12 months ago). But behind all that as I read it, I couldn't help shaking the feeling that Milwaukee is a sleeping giant and if they ever got their athletic act together and found/developed the necessary funding, they, while still remaining #4 in MKE, might be kicking some serious butt outside of MKE in whatever league they are in. But a lot of pieces have to fall into the right places at the right time for that to happen and UWM has not demonstrated that they have the ability to make that happen -- especially quickly.
Quote
Todd Aaron Golden didn't respond to the tweet but he tweet this out a little while ago (he hasn't said this but I get the sense he wants Murray State over Valpo because he thinks the Publics pull their weight more then Private schools. I think he thinks Valpo because Private Presidents may want Private)
If he is worried about VU coming into the MVC because of the public vs. private distinction, I would suggest that Valpo is an anomaly as far as conference affiliation is concerned.
VU made the move to D-I in the late '70's I believe. It helped charter the AMCU-8 in 1982, which is now the Summit League, formerly known as the Mid-Continent Conference. When that league was chartered, VU was the only private institution in the league, and remained so until 1997. Only when Oral Roberts joined did Valpo share conference membership with another private school.
Between 1982 and 2007, or looking at about 25 years' worth of history, Valpo had only two conference members ever who were private (ORU and Centenary). While this changed when VU joined the HL, with the departures of Butler and Loyola, VU is now back to where it was in 1997, sharing a conference currently with one other private school member (Detroit).
A great majority of Valpo's conference mates have either been, or continue to be, larger, publicly funded state institutions. This history would suggest that while VU is a private school that can relate to Drake, UE, Bradley and LUC on many levels by virtue of being private, Valpo has pretty much only known mid size or large state schools historically conference wise, and therefore has the ability to understand the MVC publics on many levels too should it join the MVC. And, at least since 1993, generally we have been able to compete fairly well in MBB against both the publics and the privates in both of our previous leagues.
The public/private thing seems to be a very silly issue for a non-P5 conference that doesn't play FBS football to get hung up on. It doesn't matter at this level. What matters is the volume and commitment of good basketball programs in the league and the travel works financially. That's it.
The A-10 has proven this model works, with a mix of both public and private institutions.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 08, 2017, 07:39:58 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 08, 2017, 05:04:52 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 07, 2017, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 07, 2017, 01:34:09 AM
Anyone who isn't on board with an MVC move hasn't been following their conference. They get multiple bids in just about every sport, though not as often recently in Men's Basketball. They get multiple bids in baseball, volleyball, softball, etc.
That was at a time when WSU and CREIGHTON were in the league. ITS NOT THE SAME LEAGUE, just like the HL is not the same league post Butler.
No, it was not. Wichita State and Creighton were not the reason that the MVC received multiple bids in sports outside of Men's Basketball. Let's look at 2 examples:
Baseball - 1 bid by Dallas Baptist in 2016, but 3 in 2015 with Bradley, Missouri State, and Dallas Baptist. Missouri State is currently leading the conference, while Wichita State is middle of the pack. Survey says, Wichita State is not the reason they received multiple bids in Baseball recently. Conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
Volleyball - 3 bids in 2016 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, and Wichita State, but 4 in 2015 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, and Wichita State. Survey says, conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
The conference is in much better position to get multiple bids in all sports, versus what we have in the HL. I know that Men's Basketball hasn't been as successful recently in gaining multiple bids, but is in obvious position to have that possibility, much more so than the HL.
MBB is all I care about, sadly.
Right, which further confuses me as to why you responded to my initial post in the first place. I definitely laid out that it hasn't been as much in Men's Basketball recently, and was clearly referencing that the benefit was more to the other sports, while still having a solid Basketball foundation.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 08, 2017, 01:33:21 PM
If we are the chosen one, can we figure that the up-coming season will be in "The Valley"?
It sounds like it.
A little to my surprise, all signs seem to be that all negotiating has already happened. With the candidate universities presumably already agreeing to accept an invitation if offered. It sounds like the Valley intends to announce things tomorrow as a done deal.
It's going to cause a little bit of scheduling stress and chaos, but people seem to think it can happen already for the fall.
Quote from: valpotx on May 08, 2017, 03:06:35 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 08, 2017, 07:39:58 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 08, 2017, 05:04:52 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on May 07, 2017, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: valpotx on May 07, 2017, 01:34:09 AM
Anyone who isn't on board with an MVC move hasn't been following their conference. They get multiple bids in just about every sport, though not as often recently in Men's Basketball. They get multiple bids in baseball, volleyball, softball, etc.
That was at a time when WSU and CREIGHTON were in the league. ITS NOT THE SAME LEAGUE, just like the HL is not the same league post Butler.
No, it was not. Wichita State and Creighton were not the reason that the MVC received multiple bids in sports outside of Men's Basketball. Let's look at 2 examples:
Baseball - 1 bid by Dallas Baptist in 2016, but 3 in 2015 with Bradley, Missouri State, and Dallas Baptist. Missouri State is currently leading the conference, while Wichita State is middle of the pack. Survey says, Wichita State is not the reason they received multiple bids in Baseball recently. Conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
Volleyball - 3 bids in 2016 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, and Wichita State, but 4 in 2015 with Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, and Wichita State. Survey says, conference still receives multiple bids without WSU.
The conference is in much better position to get multiple bids in all sports, versus what we have in the HL. I know that Men's Basketball hasn't been as successful recently in gaining multiple bids, but is in obvious position to have that possibility, much more so than the HL.
MBB is all I care about, sadly.
Right, which further confuses me as to why you responded to my initial post in the first place. I definitely laid out that it hasn't been as much in Men's Basketball recently, and was clearly referencing that the benefit was more to the other sports, while still having a solid Basketball foundation.
It's no worries, but this is a Basketball thread based on the subject. That's the reason for my original reply.
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/861684771784720385
"Valparaiso University- Leading Candidate to Join The Valley
As first reported last week the Missouri Valley Conference presidents will meet on a conference call tonight at 7PM CDT to discuss MVC expansion.
Wichita State left the conference for the American Athletic Conference last month and now sources close to the process indicate The Valley will likely add one member to replace Wichita State for the 2017-18 season continuing as a ten school conference.
One source close to the discussions described the situation this way, "Seemed Valpo was a done deal".
Expect a final decision no later than tomorrow. As per my sources, Valparaiso University is expacted to accept an invitation."
It would be fantastic if that is the case. I have enjoyed our time in the HL, but will speak with more pride to be in the MVC. That is our long-term home, and the top of what we can expect to obtain. Thinking that this might be a reality tomorrow, gives me goose bumps. Do you know how many of us that competed in the Mid-Con, wished that we could have been in the MVC? It would have been great to be in the HL at that time, but to imagine that we would be in The Valley one day? Wow!
As many others have already said, I would much prefer both Valpo and MSU. Then again, as others also said (and I had not considered), maybe they want both but the Murray State football issue will take another year to resolve.
All eyes on this building>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6205917,-90.210597,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4FvabGpGurhXiWaaweBYkA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Turn the picture to the east and you will see the Gateway Arch.
Also if you go west on Chouteau to Grand and turn right (north) you come to the main part of the Saint Louis University campus (A-10).
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6268606,-90.2363531,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR33jEhIWLPbP7Ljg2Z4FgQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
St Francis Xavier College Church on Grand Ave in the mid-mid-mid heart of St Louis City.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6369237,-90.2329386,3a,75y,289.71h,99.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srNywSGc1HkJNTUddY6dB5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/861733372657369088
https://twitter.com/AKAJeffBidwell/status/861728133136994306
Will the Missouri Valley catch a "Big Ol' Fish" like Elijah Manus of the Heartland? Only the MVC Prez know for sure.
I can hear the ads now. Come on down to the Appliance Wizard of Marion, Affordable Items at the Right Price
(http://appliancewizardmarion.com/communities/4/000/001/505/844//images/5736306_174x156.png)
I love The Bachelor analogy!!!
Might the MVC postpone an announcement till Wednesday to accommodate MuSU B of R? I hope so. I don't want Valpo as the sole selection. Period.
Quote from: VU2014 on May 08, 2017, 07:13:19 PM
https://twitter.com/AKAJeffBidwell/status/861728133136994306
.
Good local coverage. For some reason our tv outlet, VUTV 15 has been remarkably silent. Perhaps it is because schools out in a couple of weeks and the baseball and softball tourneys are nearing. ??? ;)
From the Murray State message board:
Re: MVC article of interest
Quote
Post Mon May 08, 2017 8:26 pm
It's leaking, we're in effective August 1. Football will play ovc schedule this season and then move to the mvfc next season. Hello Missouri valley conference.
Quote from: wh on May 08, 2017, 08:29:57 PM
From the Murray State message board:
Re: MVC article of interest
Quote
Post Mon May 08, 2017 8:26 pm
It's leaking, we're in effective August 1. Football will play ovc schedule this season and then move to the mvfc next season. Hello Missouri valley conference.
LEAK. RUMOR. But I hope it is true for MuSU (providing VU is in too).
The longer the wait for an announcement the more likely it will be multiple adds. :twocents:
From the Northern Iowa board:
Default Nebraska Omaha????
There are tweets saying that they have been voted as the 10th member, if so we need out of this conference as soon as possible, you had two basketball rich schools wanting in, and you choose that dumpster fire of a program?
I hope that these are false and I'm getting worked up over nothing.
achrist70 is online now
Probably from the fake Paul Oron account...
He's one of the last PN posters to trust.
It was definitely the fake Oron account
Maybe they commited in writing to add $5 million to the MBB budget for each of the next 10 years? Included was $1 M to the MVC annually. Sorry, I was being petty. :-[
I want this thing to end. Fingers crossed we get in and get the news tonight or early tomorrow either way.
My bet is tomorrow afternoon at the earliest.
If you have any questions tweet at Paul:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/861789612439678977
Nobody knows what is going on. People on the MVC board are saying Valpo is in, and then you have a Murray State forum poster saying that they are in. My gut is if they are going to 10, it will just be us.
Murray State's wait on the Missouri Valley Conference continues
Posted: May 08, 2017 11:09 PM CDT
Updated: May 08, 2017 11:36 PM CDT
http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/story/35376736/murray-states-wait-on-the-missouri-valley-conference-continues
That Murray State forum post was based on a fake Twitter account, similar to the Paul Oron account that was created. Does anyone think that Paul created this other PO account, in order to vent some frustration about the ridiculousness of rumors? ;)
Quote from: wh on May 09, 2017, 01:33:54 AM
Murray State's wait on the Missouri Valley Conference continues
Posted: May 08, 2017 11:09 PM CDT
Updated: May 08, 2017 11:36 PM CDT
http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/story/35376736/murray-states-wait-on-the-missouri-valley-conference-continues
Leave it to the Missouri State AD to give is basically the only newa of the day.
QuoteAs of 10:00pm Monday night, Murray State Director of Athletics Allen Ward said no one from the Missouri Valley Conference had contacted anyone at Murray State.
Even if Murray State does get an invitation, the process then needs to go over to the Board of Regents for official approval. The board can not meet without 24 hours notice, so this process could still take several days to play out.
Wow, that Murray State post caused quite a stir. Most athletic conferences have a fiscal year running from July 1 to June 30, and I'm sure the MVC is no different. If there's another tweet or post today that says that someone is moving to the MVC in 2017 on a date other than JULY 1, I'd wager that it is likely false and am going to assume so until it is confirmed.
I'm really surprised about the lack of credible leaks thus far all things considered.
What happens if they can't get a 7/9 vote for any of the proposed teams? Back to drawing board? Take a break and come back another time for a revote?
Really when you think about it, who wouldn't want Valpo to join? Loyola? Because we regularly kicked their butts? That still leaves the required 7 votes! ;D
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 09, 2017, 07:58:39 AM
What happens if they can't get a 7/9 vote for any of the proposed teams? Back to drawing board? Take a break and come back another time for a revote?
Generally those issues are resolved long before any formal vote takes place. Things like last night are typically a procedural rubber stamp.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not MVC related but a CBB writer wrote a possible hypothetical realignment scenario: The Patriot Plus League. He did other league realignments as well.
Check out the schools/explanation:
School Former Conference
Lafayette Patriot League
Bryant NEC
Valparaiso Horizon League
Colgate Patriot League
Boston U. Patriot League
Fairfield MAAC
Lehigh Patriot League
Quinnipiac MAAC
Drake Missouri Valley
Loyola (MD) Patriot League
Marist MAAC
Manhattan MAAC
Northeastern Colonial
Holy Cross Patriot League
https://twitter.com/nybuckets/status/861928914108637184
I realize last night was more procedural, just kind of tossing a hypothetical out there... We all heard about public/private, what happens if each side vetoed the other side? We have a filibuster!
Quote from: Dave_2010 on May 09, 2017, 08:24:38 AM
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 09, 2017, 07:58:39 AM
What happens if they can't get a 7/9 vote for any of the proposed teams? Back to drawing board? Take a break and come back another time for a revote?
Generally those issues are resolved long before any formal vote takes place. Things like last night are typically a procedural rubber stamp.
Agreed. Good CEO's have the votes counted and committed prior to the meeting. If not, the meeting is postponed or changed to a "working session." Also, anything short of a 100% favorable vote would be a PR disaster for a rollout of something this big. Rest assured, 9 universities and AD's will be publicly singing the praises of the new addition(s).
This interminable waiting is driving me nuts. I would have thought we would have heard something late last night or after 8 CDT this morning. I am surprised that this cone of silence has held up in this day and age.
Wouldn't a sure clue, for at least a MuSU invite, be their public meeting rules. Because they are a public B of R, they must post their meeting for 24 hours prior to publicly meeting. And so far no one has posted info about such a meeting. I would have thought that such a meeting notice would have been posted by now since the meeting ended last night.
All this is really getting complicated. Especially in light of the fact that, in order to be considered, the 4 schools had to previously commit to joining the MVC if asked.
Could this be it? http://www.1470wmbd.com/report-mvc-add-valparaiso/ (http://www.1470wmbd.com/report-mvc-add-valparaiso/)
Nothing against you guys - and I'd say the same thing on the MUSU forum - a one team invite is a complete disaster.
https://twitter.com/dreamarlowe85/status/861944580417212416
If Murray State isn't moving to the Valley that would seem like Valpo would likely get the invite!!
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/861947029550968833
https://twitter.com/dreamarlowe85/status/861946181433294852
sounds like exciting news is about to break for Valpo! Excited to join the MVC, a little disappointed it appears to be only Valpo going.
Agree about both points. Also sympathize with UNIFTW's assessment of the result.
I'm actually excited it may be only us. There's a lot of rumors of Texas and Oklahoma looking to once and for all break up the B12 in the coming couple of years. That will create a ripple effect all the way down. By keeping at least one if not two spots open, MVC may snag a team they would otherwise not have a chance at. And it's hard to believe that Murray wouldn't accept the invite in a couple of years given how ardently the AD campaigned for it.
Just wanted to say congrats to you guys and your program. It is a well deserved honor that has been a long time coming. I know you guys are going to surprise a lot of the Valley starting day one. Just remember, if the question of 12 comes up, I hope you guys wrangle your president into a corner and bend his ear about the Racers.
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 09, 2017, 09:01:47 AM
Nothing against you guys - and I'd say the same thing on the MUSU forum - a one team invite is a complete disaster.
Nothing against you guys (MVC), but I completely agree. I think it is "good" move for us, but it could have been a GREAT one if at least Murray had come along. I don't understand why the presidents didn't come to the same conclusion. Do they live in a vacuum? I thought most of the arguments for adding more than one school made complete sense.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on May 09, 2017, 09:26:46 AM
Just wanted to say congrats to you guys and your program. It is a well deserved honor that has been a long time coming. I know you guys are going to surprise a lot of the Valley starting day one. Just remember, if the question of 12 comes up, I hope you guys wrangle your president into a corner and bend his ear about the Racers.
Was really excited about the possibility of both of us going to the MVC, now not so much with just the single invite. Hope this is just a short term situation.
Quote from: RacerJoeD on May 09, 2017, 09:26:46 AM
Just wanted to say congrats to you guys and your program. It is a well deserved honor that has been a long time coming. I know you guys are going to surprise a lot of the Valley starting day one. Just remember, if the question of 12 comes up, I hope you guys wrangle your president into a corner and bend his ear about the Racers.
I'm sad that the MVC presidents didn't include you guys. We went though this circus 4 years ago and lost out. It seems like this is a similar thing. Almost feels like once denied, you become the next frontrunner. Hopefully for Racer fans the next move is within a year or two.
Single invite strikes me as a reactionary response to needing a 10th member as opposed to a plan to grow the league post-Creighton/Wichita.
Much like when the HL added Oakland a few years back, Valpo was the obvious choice to get back to 10. A solid choice that probably won't move the needle much.
I was hoping the league would go to 12, but it's final two choices were underwhelming.
Ideally, they have big plans for summer 2018.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/861954739331837952
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/861954951781781504
https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/861955219604865027
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/861955359367475200
Its being reported
https://twitter.com/MattNorlander/status/861956869237219329
Interesting...
https://twitter.com/MattNorlander/status/861957624576737281
CONFIRMED by the official MVC Twitter.
https://twitter.com/MVCsports/status/861958944612155393
The Valley announcement says that we got the invitation but no further announcement "pending negotiation of terms" Huh?? ???
That is pretty blunt. This is what I don't understand, don't these people understand the domino effect?? Who is to say that Murray will be available.... who does the HL go after... the MVC could have led the pack, instead they took a step backward by inviting only one team that can not at this time fill WSU's shoes.
Quote from: FWalum on May 09, 2017, 09:31:00 AM
Quote from: UNIFTW on May 09, 2017, 09:01:47 AM
Nothing against you guys - and I'd say the same thing on the MUSU forum - a one team invite is a complete disaster.
Nothing against you guys (MVC), but I completely agree. I think it is "good" move for us, but it could have been a GREAT one if at least Murray had come along. I don't understand why the presidents didn't come to the same conclusion. Do they live in a vacuum? I thought most of the arguments for adding more than one school made complete sense.
You'll learn fast enough how fractured this league is.
Go look at the reaction, especially by UNI fans, to this news. Go read MVCFans. This league is broken. Hate to do it to you guys, but this league has no vision and that was confirmed today. The presidents of this league can't get alone.
The private schools will never vote in another public school. This league is going the Big East route, and fast. We saw it starting 5 years ago. It's taken awhile, but the true fracture is coming. This might be the straw that pushes programs like UNI and ISUr out the door sooner than later.
Quote from: Dave_2010 on May 09, 2017, 09:38:26 AM
Single invite strikes me as a reactionary response to needing a 10th member as opposed to a plan to grow the league post-Creighton/Wichita.
Much like when the HL added Oakland a few years back, Valpo was the obvious choice to get back to 10. A solid choice that probably won't move the needle much.
I was hoping the league would go to 12, but it's final two choices were underwhelming.
Ideally, they have big plans for summer 2018.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Don't bet on it
Well, I guess Mark Adams had it right.
I'll admit I was more excited by the prospect of joining with another good team, like a Murray State or a Belmont. But, hopefully this will be good.
After I get over some disappointment at "only one", it should certainly be exciting! I'll be very curious to think of what other sports think of this.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/861960527408500740
I get the sense the MVC could have added Duke and North Carolina and MVCFans.com would bitch about it.
This is fantastic news. What a proud day for VU!
QuoteThe Valley announcement says that we got the invitation but no further announcement "pending negotiation of terms" Huh??
It's a done deal. No way the MVC announces this if it wasn't. Probably just a few loose contractual ends being still being tied up by the lawyers on all sides (VU, HL, MVC), but nothing potentially deal-breaking.
https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/861959739630026752
Good for us, but also sad that Murray State won't be joining us. Outside of our 35 point butt-kicking of their program a few years back, we had two really solid games against them. Hopefully, we see them again soon.
I love all of the predictions pitting Valpo as a 6-8th place finisher this next season. I look forward to surprising MVC fans, in that we are not just Alec Peters or the Drews...
I am loving this news specific to Valpo. As long as Dallas Baptist stays in the conference past their current associate member agreement that ends after the 2019-2020 season, I get to see our baseball program each year! We played them 1-2 seasons ago, and did well.
Welcome to the Valley! Looking forward to some fresh competition.
You guys were still a great add but its more than bittersweet to miss out on what could've been so much more. I really hope there is a good reason. Otherwise, the Valley had an opportunity to be smart and proactive, but instead stuck its tail between its legs and stuck to tradition that's overstayed its welcome.
I for one am not optimistic they are going to do future expansion. That would be a pleasant surprise, and the Valley is not big on those.
I really do not wish the Horizon League on Murray State fans. Hopefully the MVC considers Murray State a again next year or maybe they add both Murray & Belmont (eventually).
https://twitter.com/ClifSmart/status/861959323613876226
Gonna go ahead and lock this epic thread to try to keep things organized. The discussion continues on VU2014's new thread: http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2848.0