If Freeman doesn't win next year then...

[jack]

"I concur with you on one thing and that is he is working is a-- off trying to turn this thing around.  I don't always agree with what he does coaching wise or personell wise (I've argued with him more than once), but there has never been a doubt about how much he cares and how hard he works.  We need a good point guard to make his offense scheme work, unfortuntely Richards hasn't taken charge as he hoped she would.  Hopefully these recruits are as good as advertised...inside I think we have two potential all league players in Gerardot and Lange (Stephanie).  They both have things to work on defensively, but they make a difference on the floor.  The return of Varner will be a big thing to give us more depth inside, and Gina Lang needs to continue to improve her play.  No one plays harder than her.  I'm really disappointed in the loss of Gick.  I thought she might become the answer at point, but bad backs are just nothing to mess with and her Doctor is the one that has pulled the plug....next year, I think we will be much more competitive.  We lack inside presence and I think we have the potential to match up with the Green Bay's, Butler and Cleveland States there in the future.  It won't be for lack of effort that is for sure"

It appears that Keith agrees with many of us on his needs as well.We need a point guard that can handle the ball, reduce the turnovers, be a leader, keep her teammates involved, and get the ball to the shooters. He found that in Carr. A bonus to that is she can also create her own shots and score when needed. We need an inside presence to match up with the bigger squads we face. This presence also has to be a leader, needs to pull down some boards on both sides of the floor, and must be able to score. He found that in Ladd. Truly one of the best big games I've seen in some time.These two, along with the rest of the talent we have, will make great strides this season. Count on it.

[wayne]

you guys calling out richards is ridiculous.
she is the product of coaching-players come here and need to be developed into what we need
unfortunately that player development is not/has not been happening
in the end the players we recruit get the blame for our losses-instead of admitting we do not recruit well
esp in the horizon league where the other teams ARE developing talent
you cant sell what you dont own

[dcvalpo]

Listen guys, you need to relax.  Rlh made a great point about Richards, and I was just giving credit where it was due.  Maybe put up more than one post before you start calling people "ridiculous." 

Looks like a nerve was struck with those who like to flame...kind of makes you wonder if all these Keith-bashers are all the same person under new names.  I am not pointing any fingers, but where did all of this get started?  Makes you go hmm.

[KL31NY]

Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm backing wayne and acesneights on Laura. Although I would like to see her be a more productive player and a bigger leader, there is no way Laura is solely responsible for the losses as has been stated or implied earlier. Call me naive, but I believe that you win as a team, lose as a team.

I personally saw a lot of positives and negatives throughout the entire team this past season, and it's not a one horse club. If they are going to succeed this coming season, everyone will need to do work and improve as a cohesive, healthy unit, and I believe that in some shape or form, we will see some improvement.

[IndyValpo]

The downward spiral started the when Ray was not developed into a PG as a freshman or soph.  Her confidence was destroyed and she became a 5-3 SG. With Ray out of the picture we were left with 2 freshmen. Gick was headed down the same road as Ray therefore there was no choice but to play Richards.  Trust me, she was not brought in to start at PG.  She has done an admirable job in a tough situation.  Wayne is correct we have not been developing players, especially PG's for several years and losses are the result. 

Where did this get started?  I brought this up mid season.

[dcvalpo]

Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm backing wayne and acesneights on Laura. Although I would like to see her be a more productive player and a bigger leader, there is no way Laura is solely responsible for the losses as has been stated or implied earlier. Call me naive, but I believe that you win as a team, lose as a team.

I personally saw a lot of positives and negatives throughout the entire team this past season, and it's not a one horse club. If they are going to succeed this coming season, everyone will need to do work and improve as a cohesive, healthy unit, and I believe that in some shape or form, we will see some improvement.

Look "guy," back whoever you want but I think the bigger point being missed by all but maybe rlh, myself, DMValpo and a handful of others is that great players make great coaches.  It's not the other way around guy.  Keith can only fly as high as these girls fly, and they haven't been flying too high, now have they?  I don't think rlh was really calling out Laura, just mentioning that she hasn't done what we all hoped and that Keith is suffering for that.

[dcvalpo]

The downward spiral started the when Ray was not developed into a PG as a freshman or soph.  Her confidence was destroyed and she became a 5-3 SG. With Ray out of the picture we were left with 2 freshmen. Gick was headed down the same road as Ray therefore there was no choice but to play Richards.  Trust me, she was not brought in to start at PG.  She has done an admirable job in a tough situation.  Wayne is correct we have not been developing players, especially PG's for several years and losses are the result. 

Where did this get started?  I brought this up mid season.

So, all of the sudden, after years of great coaching, Keith just forgot how to develop players? 

[IndyValpo]

So, all of the sudden, after years of great coaching, Keith just forgot how to develop players?  

For whatever reason, our player development has slipped the last few years. If you can't see that then this discussion is pointless. If the players are incapable of development then we are recruiting the wrong people.  Either way the coach has some responsibility here.  If we have now recruited the type of players we need.....good for us!

[KL31NY]

Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm backing wayne and acesneights on Laura. Although I would like to see her be a more productive player and a bigger leader, there is no way Laura is solely responsible for the losses as has been stated or implied earlier. Call me naive, but I believe that you win as a team, lose as a team.

I personally saw a lot of positives and negatives throughout the entire team this past season, and it's not a one horse club. If they are going to succeed this coming season, everyone will need to do work and improve as a cohesive, healthy unit, and I believe that in some shape or form, we will see some improvement.

Look "guy," back whoever you want but I think the bigger point being missed by all but maybe rlh, myself, DMValpo and a handful of others is that great players make great coaches.  It's not the other way around guy.  Keith can only fly as high as these girls fly, and they haven't been flying too high, now have they?  I don't think rlh was really calling out Laura, just mentioning that she hasn't done what we all hoped and that Keith is suffering for that.

I agree w/ everything posted. That said, I was also referring more to you than rlh for singling Laura out for the losses. I liked rlh's comments earlier on the team, and agreeing again with you, the key is whether these women put in the work necessary to win, and only then will Keith, Kirby, and the rest of that staff really do the most to help these players along.

[dcvalpo]

Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm backing wayne and acesneights on Laura. Although I would like to see her be a more productive player and a bigger leader, there is no way Laura is solely responsible for the losses as has been stated or implied earlier. Call me naive, but I believe that you win as a team, lose as a team.

I personally saw a lot of positives and negatives throughout the entire team this past season, and it's not a one horse club. If they are going to succeed this coming season, everyone will need to do work and improve as a cohesive, healthy unit, and I believe that in some shape or form, we will see some improvement.

Look "guy," back whoever you want but I think the bigger point being missed by all but maybe rlh, myself, DMValpo and a handful of others is that great players make great coaches.  It's not the other way around guy.  Keith can only fly as high as these girls fly, and they haven't been flying too high, now have they?  I don't think rlh was really calling out Laura, just mentioning that she hasn't done what we all hoped and that Keith is suffering for that.

I agree w/ everything posted. That said, I was also referring more to you than rlh for singling Laura out for the losses. I liked rlh's comments earlier on the team, and agreeing again with you, the key is whether these women put in the work necessary to win, and only then will Keith, Kirby, and the rest of that staff really do the most to help these players along.

YES, this is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say!

However, for future reference, I would prefer we didn't bring Kirby into all of this...that is a whole other can of worms that I don't care to open.

[rlh]

I wasn't going to, but I think I must jump in here.  I never said anything that would indicate that I don't think that Laura Richards works hard and I certainly didn't heap the problems the past two years on her....she's one of the hardest workers on the team and plays very very good defense, but she has not developed into the all-conference type point guard we would hope for....that's not because she doesn't work hard...I love her efforts and look for her to continue to improve and work just as hard in the future...the fact is, she's not really a point guard.  She was a big-time scorer in high school as I understand, and she's had trouble making the adjustment.  Happens all the time at all levels....I just don't want to be misunderstood....I was asked to assess the team and I did that to the best of my ability, but would never point out one person as the reason we have struggled.  It takes a team to win, and it takes a team to not win.....

[valpo04]

kind of makes you wonder if all these Keith-bashers are all the same person under new names.  I am not pointing any fingers, but where did all of this get started?  Makes you go hmm.

That is not and has not been allowed. 

[jack]

I, too was only pointing out that, in my opinion, we have struggle with chemistry on the floor. I also believe that much of this is due to players competing in possitions outside of their comfort zone. As rlh has eluded to, Richards is a hard worker and an assest to the team. she does well defensively, and will do well offensively when the pressure to run the floor is elliviated, and she can slide back into a SG where she's more comfortable at. A lot of good, valid points and concerns are being discussed here. That's what these forums are for. I feel it's a good place to reflect possitively on the teams, there accomplishments, and their expectations. It also is a healthy place to voice concerns, an even some phylisophical differences. I don't think it's a place to sigle out any one player as a problem. It just isn't the case, ever. Win as a team, lose as a team. Floor chemistry improves when player confidence improves. I disagree with some here that suggest that the coaching staff isn't working hard enough to develop the PG possition. I've coached and have been around this game as long as I can remember, and, it's my opinion that, at this level, when talking about PG's, there are certain attributes that aren't developable - they're either there, or they aren't. That's not to say they can't work and develop ball control, passing ability, etc. but there are certain abilities that a PG must posses, that aren't taught, or learned. they either have them, or they don't. They have to see the floor extremely well, see a play develop before it happens, and understand what the defense is trying to do, all of which has to happen in seconds, and they have to react even faster. This is where the leadership and team confidence in their PG comes in. It's a make or break deal really. Many players can fill in at the PG spot for a time, but, in the end, A true PG needs to be in place, on the team, to be consistently successful. They are your floor general, and all other players feed off of their confidence.   

[dcvalpo]

I wasn't going to, but I think I must jump in here.  I never said anything that would indicate that I don't think that Laura Richards works hard and I certainly didn't heap the problems the past two years on her....she's one of the hardest workers on the team and plays very very good defense, but she has not developed into the all-conference type point guard we would hope for....that's not because she doesn't work hard...I love her efforts and look for her to continue to improve and work just as hard in the future...the fact is, she's not really a point guard.  She was a big-time scorer in high school as I understand, and she's had trouble making the adjustment.  Happens all the time at all levels....I just don't want to be misunderstood....I was asked to assess the team and I did that to the best of my ability, but would never point out one person as the reason we have struggled.  It takes a team to win, and it takes a team to not win.....

Sorry if I took you out of context rlh and sorry that some of the flamers around here are giving you the business.  The bolded above is what I was agreeing with...and you are right on the money with that.  

Again, the larger point is that Keith is not completely responsible for players developing.  They take a lot of the blame for their development.  Keith is a great guy and a hard worker and I can assure you that he is not the biggest part of the problem here.  I think rlh's points---not to mention mine---are valid due to all of the first hand knowledge.  

But don't let the facts get in the way of a fun time tearing an awesome guy down, everyone.

[dcvalpo]

kind of makes you wonder if all these Keith-bashers are all the same person under new names.  I am not pointing any fingers, but where did all of this get started?  Makes you go hmm.

That is not and has not been allowed. 

This is really good to know...all of these new posters popping up with just 1 post seemed a little suspicious.

[dcvalpo]

I, too was only pointing out that, in my opinion, we have struggle with chemistry on the floor. I also believe that much of this is due to players competing in possitions outside of their comfort zone. As rlh has eluded to, Richards is a hard worker and an assest to the team. she does well defensively, and will do well offensively when the pressure to run the floor is elliviated, and she can slide back into a SG where she's more comfortable at. A lot of good, valid points and concerns are being discussed here. That's what these forums are for. I feel it's a good place to reflect possitively on the teams, there accomplishments, and their expectations. It also is a healthy place to voice concerns, an even some phylisophical differences. I don't think it's a place to sigle out any one player as a problem. It just isn't the case, ever. Win as a team, lose as a team. Floor chemistry improves when player confidence improves. I disagree with some here that suggest that the coaching staff isn't working hard enough to develop the PG possition. I've coached and have been around this game as long as I can remember, and, it's my opinion that, at this level, when talking about PG's, there are certain attributes that aren't developable - they're either there, or they aren't. That's not to say they can't work and develop ball control, passing ability, etc. but there are certain abilities that a PG must posses, that aren't taught, or learned. they either have them, or they don't. They have to see the floor extremely well, see a play develop before it happens, and understand what the defense is trying to do, all of which has to happen in seconds, and they have to react even faster. This is where the leadership and team confidence in their PG comes in. It's a make or break deal really. Many players can fill in at the PG spot for a time, but, in the end, A true PG needs to be in place, on the team, to be consistently successful. They are your floor general, and all other players feed off of their confidence.   

Would it be possible to make jack a mod?  Valpo04?

[IndyValpo]

Again, the larger point is that Keith is not completely responsible for players developing.  They take a lot of the blame for their development.  Keith is a great guy and a hard worker and I can assure you that he is not the biggest part of the problem here.  I think rlh's points---not to mention mine---are valid due to all of the first hand knowledge. 

Does he have any responsibility at all or is just being a hard worker and a great guy all we ask? He recruits the players doesn't he or do they just show up. I would like to think he is involved in their development but perhaps he is only involved when they are successful.

[dcvalpo]

Yes, Indy, some of the blame always rests with the coach.  The buck stops at his desk.  But the fact is, many were high on his recruiting classes, and some of those players just haven't lived up to their billing.  Sure, maybe another coach could have gotten more out of them, but given his track record I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.  

This is the tough life of coaching...when the team struggles, the coach is to blame.  When the team is great, the players get all the press.  

I think it would go a long way if some of you would acknowledge that Keith is a great guy and a workaholic instead of writing those qualities off as if they mean nothing.  When he gets back to his winning ways and the division 1 big boys come sniffing around and wanting to snatch him up, don't be surprised if it is being a good guy that keeps him here.  Unless he reads this message board, which in that case I wouldn't be surprised if he is about ready to take the first train out of town.

[valpo04]

This is the tough life of coaching...when the team struggles, the coach is to blame.  When the team is great, the players get all the press. 

I think it would go a long way if some of you would acknowledge that Keith is a great guy and a workaholic instead of writing those qualities off as if they mean nothing.  When he gets back to his winning ways and the division 1 big boys come sniffing around and wanting to snatch him up, don't be surprised if it is being a good guy that keeps him here.  Unless he reads this message board, which in that case I wouldn't be surprised if he is about ready to take the first train out of town.

So, this is the tough life of coaching, and Freeman has great work ethic and is a great guy, yet you state that you wouldn't be surprised if this great man left because he read a message board in which half of the discussion in a specific thread thought less than favorably of him??

I would think if that WAS the case, he isn't a great man, he can't handle the "tough life of a coach" and surely isn't someone I would want leading my school's D1 basketball program.

[IndyValpo]

Of course those qualities mean something..but that has been your entire argument and I am sorry but if he doesn't win ultimately he shouldn't have the job.  I think even he would understand that, you won't, but he would.

You don't get out much if you think this board has been unfair or even mean to this guy. Legitimate questions have been asked.  I think even he would understand that, you won't, be he would.

[valpo04]

Of course those qualities mean something..but that has been your entire argument and I am sorry but if he doesn't win ultimately he shouldn't have the job.  I think even he would understand that, you won't, but he would.

You don't get out much if you think this board has been unfair or even mean to this guy. Legitimate questions have been asked.  I think even he would understand that, you won't, be he would.

There is no point in trying to have a rational discussion about the state of the women's team with someone who doesn't really care about results as long as the coach is a good guy... as dcvalpo already stated: 

And for the record, yes, I am ok with losing 3 out of 4 if we have a program of integrity and academic success as we have had under Keith.

[dcvalpo]

Guys, I'm going to bow out of this thread.  It's been a fun debate, but we can agree to disagree.

P.S.  Coming into this season, there was another coach in town who had put up a 24-39 record over the last two years.  There were some ardent supporters who wouldn't hear of any talk about removing this coach.  I believe the arguments were that he was/is a great guy, works his butt off, and has a great track record.  Maybe "the truth" in this thread is that we are all a little biased when it comes to "our guy."

[ValpoHoops]

Alright, let's see...

As a college basketball coach (for those who don't know, yes, I am), the results of the program you lead are DIRECTLY attributed to you. It doesn't matter how hard you work, doesn't matter how much you care, all that really matters is results. And, to suggest that players are to blame is a cop-out, since its not the players who determine who plays...its the coaches. If you want to say a player isn't the right one, that's on the coaches, they recruit the players...if they haven't developed, that's on the coaches (if the kids aren't working hard enough to develop as players, they shouldn't be playing anyways).

As someone who has athletic department experience at the college level, I can say this: it's not an expectation to make the NCAA Tournament every season. It's the ultimate goal, of course, but its generally unrealistic unless you have a program that dominates a conference like Green Bay. What you do look for as an athletic director, however, is continued improvement.


Now, it wasn't too long ago that I remember quite a few posters suggesting that it was time for Homer to step down. Obviously, he hasn't done so and the team had a very successful season - aka, improvement (though whether that is long or short term remains to be seen). From someone who has extensive experience with women's basketball, I can't honestly say that I have seen that from the VU women. From players not becoming what we thought they could, to players being out of position, etc., something just hasn't worked.

Again, to blame the players, that's totally off base. Is it right to perhaps get on them if they have a bad night or a bad stretch, yes, but to say that they haven't been good enough, that's on the coaches, and the coaches know it. I have been very fortunate in my coaching that I have had great players who have developed extremely well, something just hasn't clicked at VU. Now, there have been situations that didn't work out that nobody could forsee (Gick, for one), and that's part of the deal, but I don't think she takes the team from where it was to .500...they are more than one player away.

As for the incoming kids, obviously, I have seen them play given the fact that I have recruited Indiana quite a bit. They are good, there's no question about that, but relying on freshmen just isn't the way to go. The last "great" freshman class was in 2003-04 (Rietema, Braun, Myers), but they had a ton of help from the older kids. Who will be the leader on the floor? Perhaps someone steps up, but I'm not sure who right now.

I care about the team as much (and possibly more than most of you, for those who know my past involvement...quite literally blood, sweat and tears...and a surgery), but something just isn't right. I'm not going to come on here and call for anyone's job, but at some point, a Division 1 coach, in a top-12 conference simply has to win games. Again, I don't expect the team to make the Sweet 16 next year, and I don't expect them to compete for a conference title. But, if there is not improvement, then perhaps it would be time for a change, or at least some strong thoughts about it.

[vuweathernerd]

Alright, let's see...

As a college basketball coach (for those who don't know, yes, I am), the results of the program you lead are DIRECTLY attributed to you. It doesn't matter how hard you work, doesn't matter how much you care, all that really matters is results. And, to suggest that players are to blame is a cop-out, since its not the players who determine who plays...its the coaches. If you want to say a player isn't the right one, that's on the coaches, they recruit the players...if they haven't developed, that's on the coaches (if the kids aren't working hard enough to develop as players, they shouldn't be playing anyways).

As someone who has athletic department experience at the college level, I can say this: it's not an expectation to make the NCAA Tournament every season. It's the ultimate goal, of course, but its generally unrealistic unless you have a program that dominates a conference like Green Bay. What you do look for as an athletic director, however, is continued improvement.


Now, it wasn't too long ago that I remember quite a few posters suggesting that it was time for Homer to step down. Obviously, he hasn't done so and the team had a very successful season - aka, improvement (though whether that is long or short term remains to be seen). From someone who has extensive experience with women's basketball, I can't honestly say that I have seen that from the VU women. From players not becoming what we thought they could, to players being out of position, etc., something just hasn't worked.

Again, to blame the players, that's totally off base. Is it right to perhaps get on them if they have a bad night or a bad stretch, yes, but to say that they haven't been good enough, that's on the coaches, and the coaches know it. I have been very fortunate in my coaching that I have had great players who have developed extremely well, something just hasn't clicked at VU. Now, there have been situations that didn't work out that nobody could forsee (Gick, for one), and that's part of the deal, but I don't think she takes the team from where it was to .500...they are more than one player away.

As for the incoming kids, obviously, I have seen them play given the fact that I have recruited Indiana quite a bit. They are good, there's no question about that, but relying on freshmen just isn't the way to go. The last "great" freshman class was in 2003-04 (Rietema, Braun, Myers), but they had a ton of help from the older kids. Who will be the leader on the floor? Perhaps someone steps up, but I'm not sure who right now.

I care about the team as much (and possibly more than most of you, for those who know my past involvement...quite literally blood, sweat and tears...and a surgery), but something just isn't right. I'm not going to come on here and call for anyone's job, but at some point, a Division 1 coach, in a top-12 conference simply has to win games. Again, I don't expect the team to make the Sweet 16 next year, and I don't expect them to compete for a conference title. But, if there is not improvement, then perhaps it would be time for a change, or at least some strong thoughts about it.

well said hoops

[bbtds]

I think it would go a long way if some of you would acknowledge that Keith is a great guy and a workaholic instead of writing those qualities off as if they mean nothing. 

Keith is a great guy and a hard worker.

Regardless of those 2 very good qualities if he doesn't start winning it will eventually cost him his job. It may not be after next year, it may not be after 2012-13 but we do know that ML will find a replacement if a coach does not win eventually.