I thought we should have a thread devoted to our appearances in national and mid-major polls across the season. Hopefully, it will be a hot topic. ;)
USA Today Men's Basketball Coaches Poll
Week 1
Valparaiso 2 points; tied for 53rd
http://sportspolls.usatoday.com/ncaa/basketball-men/polls/coaches-poll/2016/20
https://www.twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/808122274536488960
Up a spot on his ballot as, perhaps among other events, St. Mary's loses at home to UT Arlington.
It's hard to see us _entering_ many ballots this week. Unless there really is a significant bandwagon effect - "A couple of other people voted for Valpo, maybe I should take a look, and I guess it's 'OK' to vote for them." But, we could of course shift around as per the usual escalator rules when others have "unexpected" wins and losses.
No great surprise that a 20 point loss at Kentucky is not disqualifying.
AP (the Associate Press, not the Alec Peters) Poll is out... #30 !
Others receiving votes: Florida 44, Wichita St 33, Virginia Tech 32, Maryland 31, Valparaiso 9, TCU 8, Middle Tennessee 7, Miami 6, Minnesota 6, Kansas State 4, UCF 2, Syracuse 2, Ohio State 2, Pittsburgh 2, Michigan State 2, Iowa State 1, Clemson 1, Loyola (CHI) 1
Anything on the CBI Mid-Major poll?
not yet... here's the link to whatever is current:
http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php
Coach's Poll is out... :'(
Others receiving votes: Florida 48, Wichita St 29, Maryland 23, Syracuse 16, Virginia Tech 14, Miami 13, Michigan State 9, Arkansas 7, California 7, Oklahoma State 7, Colorado 5, Iowa State 4, Michigan 3, Middle Tennessee 3, TCU 2, Texas A&M 2, UT-Arlington 1, Minnesota 1
Quote from: agibson on December 05, 2016, 12:29:37 PM
7 points good for #34. And a single #25 vote in the coaches poll to boot.
The AP votes were from familiar faces. #23 from Seth Davis as advertised, #24 from Elton Alexander, #25 from Graham Couch and Matt McCoy.
The first three maybe our most loyal voters last year, and we'd heard from McCoy as well.
Still waiting for the full results to be processed but it looks like Couch (Lansing) went with Davis (CBS/SI) and took us all the way to #22. While Alexander (Cleveland) and McCoy (Columbus) both dropped us. Meaning someone else brought us in at #25.
Quote from: valpo64 on December 12, 2016, 11:35:17 AM
Anything on the CBI Mid-Major poll?
You do wonder if we can pass St. Mary's for #2.
Quote from: agibson on December 12, 2016, 01:15:17 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on December 12, 2016, 11:35:17 AM
Anything on the CBI Mid-Major poll?
You do wonder if we can pass St. Mary's for #2.
you may have to look behind us...On Saturday, #4 Wichita State went to Norman and beat the Sooners on ESPN2... and #5 NC-Wilmington went to #89 St Bonaventure and beat them
Quote from: talksalot on December 12, 2016, 01:35:45 PMyou may have to look behind us...On Saturday, #4 Wichita State went to Norman and beat the Sooners on ESPN2..
Good call. They've already leap frogged us in the AP. 27/27 nationally.
Quote from: agibson on December 12, 2016, 01:43:01 PM
Quote from: talksalot on December 12, 2016, 01:35:45 PMyou may have to look behind us...On Saturday, #4 Wichita State went to Norman and beat the Sooners on ESPN2..
Good call. They've already leap frogged us in the AP. 27/27 nationally.
Shocking.
The HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
Congrats to our commissioner and the 7 failing "old guard" conference member organizations.
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PMThe HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
At least above the Summit. They've got _two_ teams that haven't yet recorded a D1 win.
Quote from: agibson on December 12, 2016, 02:56:48 PM
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PMThe HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
At least above the Summit. They've got _two_ teams that haven't yet recorded a D1 win.
A D- is always better than an F. ;)
Quote from: agibson on December 12, 2016, 02:56:48 PM
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PMThe HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
At least above the Summit. They've got _two_ teams that haven't yet recorded a D1 win.
Perhaps in rpi but not in the Sagarin's where the Summit is ranked 18th and the Horizon 20th. Not sure how that happens at only 2 teams in the Summit have a winning record while 4 teams in the Horizon have winning records. Part of it is strength of schedule as a team like ORU has a 0-8 record but is playing the 10th toughest schedule in the country.
Oakland is ranked 78th while we are at 79th while Oakland sure can't be accused of playing a hard schedule--currently ranked 348th while ours is 42nd.
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PM
The HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
Congrats to our commissioner and the 7 failing "old guard" conference member organizations.
Conference forecasts to 16th though, which is actually ahead of the WAC. We've digressed for sure since Butler left, and the league never really took advantage of their title game runs.
We had a span of 4-5 years where there were the same coaches spiraling their teams into mediocrity, and the league ran dry on talent. A 3 star recruit was an aberration, and a 2 star was even rare in the league. Teams in the Horizon were able to sell recruits on NCAA appearance, at large bids, record in the tournament, etc. McCallum, Jeter, Donlon lived through this and were able to do nothing with this, yet when, Donlon and Jeter were fired, everyone still loses their minds. The entire league seemed content with mediocrity, and we held teams to a standard that making the CIT or CBI once every few years constituted a great season.
Even the awards ceremonies ignored true success. Coaches that were responsible for recruiting poor talent and making them average at best were rewarded, while first and second teams were littered with players from teams that couldn't crack the top 100. Fans around the league were totally content with this too, arguing against giving defensive player of the year to the nation's best shot block on a top 5 defensive team in the country.
While there was some growing pains last year, and there's going to be pains again this year, I applaud teams that have hired promising coaches, and it seems like the league is finally getting some talent. The all freshman teams the past two years were bad. There's finally some decent freshman again - Trevor Anderson, Marcus Ottey, Goodwin Boahen, Carson Williams to name a few that were rated out of high school. It remains to be seen if these new coaches will be better than the old ones, but I think some of these schools are finally headed on the right direction.
Quote from: agibson on December 12, 2016, 02:56:48 PM
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PMThe HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
At least above the Summit. They've got _two_ teams that haven't yet recorded a D1 win.
We don't really have to worry about the Summit. If a team gets too good, we'll just take them, or at least, take their coach.
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PM
The HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
Congrats to our commissioner and the 7 failing "old guard" conference member organizations.
Could not agree more wh. The HL leadership is lacking in so many ways, from decisiveness, to well thought out planning, to vision to improve for ALL members, etc. Sad state. Mid-Con all over again. I'm envious of Loyola and hate to say it Butler. They got out at the right time.
Quote from: vufan75 on December 12, 2016, 03:56:36 PM
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PM
The HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
Congrats to our commissioner and the 7 failing "old guard" conference member organizations.
Could not agree more wh. The HL leadership is lacking in so many ways, from decisiveness, to well thought out planning, to vision to improve for ALL members, etc. Sad state. Mid-Con all over again. I'm envious of Loyola and hate to say it Butler. They got out at the right time.
Loyola had decades of incompetence - they were gift wrapped a better conference because their main campus is in Chicago. They didn't get out at the right time. They were accidentally let out, while blindfolded and lost.
Mid Major poll is out... and I was right... you needed to watch out from below... BUT I missed one!
RECORD POINTS PREVIOUS
1. Gonzaga (31) 10-0 775 1 West Coast
2. Wichita State 9-2 731 4 Missouri Valley
3. UT Arlington 8-3 665 7 Sun Belt
4. Valparaiso 8-2 651 3 Horizon
5. UNCW 8-1 650 5 Colonial
6. Saint Mary's 7-1 635 2 West Coast
7. Fort Wayne 8-3 562 6 Summit
8. Chattanooga 7-2 530 8 Southern
9. Monmouth 8-2 507 10 Metro Atlantic
10. Oakland 9-1 451 12 Horizon
11. ETSU 7-2 435 9 Southern
12. BYU 7-3 393 15 West Coast
13. Ohio 5-2 370 11 Mid-American
14. Belmont 4-3 301 14 Ohio Valley
15. New Mexico State 8-2 299 18 Western Athletic
16. Florida Gulf Coast 7-3 297 16 Atlantic Sun
17. Loyola (Chicago) 9-2 249 19 Missouri Valley
18. Illinois State 5-3 224 13 Missouri Valley
19. UL Lafayette 8-2 212 20 Sun Belt
20. Tennessee State 7-2 175 17 Ohio Valley
21. Arkansas State 7-2 164 21 Sun Belt
22. Little Rock 8-2 113 NR Sun Belt
23. Iona 6-3 90 NR Metro Atlantic
24. Akron 7-3 76 22 Mid-American
25. Charleston 7-3 73 NR Colonial
OTHERS RECEIVING VOTES: Northern Iowa 54, Vermont 48, Princeton 44, Grand Canyon 28, Yale 26, Eastern Michigan 25, Stephen F Austin 24, North Dakota State 17, San Francisco 18, Sam Houston State 17, CSU Bakersfield 13, UC Irvine 13, Winthrop 13, Elon 12, Albany 11, South Dakota 11, Eastern Washington 10, South Alabama 10, Northern Kentucky 10, Buffalo 8, Texas A&M Corpus Christi 7, UT Martin 6, Harvard 4, Lehigh 4, UNC Asheville 4, Bucknell 3, Evansville 3, Central Michigan 2, Utah Valley 2, UMBC 1.
Quote from: a3uge on December 12, 2016, 04:26:17 PM
Quote from: vufan75 on December 12, 2016, 03:56:36 PM
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PM
The HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
Congrats to our commissioner and the 7 failing "old guard" conference member organizations.
Could not agree more wh. The HL leadership is lacking in so many ways, from decisiveness, to well thought out planning, to vision to improve for ALL members, etc. Sad state. Mid-Con all over again. I'm envious of Loyola and hate to say it Butler. They got out at the right time.
Loyola had decades of incompetence - they were gift wrapped a better conference because their main campus is in Chicago. They didn't get out at the right time. They were accidentally let out, while blindfolded and lost.
They may have been incompetent, BUT, they are located in Chicago not 50 miles outside the city (dumb luck maybe). And they had the donors and wisdom to improve athletic facilities b4 the conference shakeup that happened. We took almost a decade just to fully fund and build a track, let alone renovate the ARC for our showcase sport. Maybe we will get another opportunity someday, but for now we appear to be long term HL members.
Quote from: vufan75 on December 12, 2016, 05:10:33 PM
Quote from: a3uge on December 12, 2016, 04:26:17 PM
Quote from: vufan75 on December 12, 2016, 03:56:36 PM
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PM
The HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
Congrats to our commissioner and the 7 failing "old guard" conference member organizations.
Could not agree more wh. The HL leadership is lacking in so many ways, from decisiveness, to well thought out planning, to vision to improve for ALL members, etc. Sad state. Mid-Con all over again. I'm envious of Loyola and hate to say it Butler. They got out at the right time.
Loyola had decades of incompetence - they were gift wrapped a better conference because their main campus is in Chicago. They didn't get out at the right time. They were accidentally let out, while blindfolded and lost.
They may have been incompetent, BUT, they are located in Chicago not 50 miles outside the city (dumb luck maybe). And they had the donors and wisdom to improve athletic facilities b4 the conference shakeup that happened. We took almost a decade just to fully fund and build a track, let alone renovate the ARC for our showcase sport. Maybe we will get another opportunity someday, but for now we appear to be long term HL members.
Well if the Gentile Center is an "improvement" I'd rather wait another 10 years. Look at that place! The ARC holds as many and has a much better atmosphere because nobody goes to their games. And as for the track, ours is much better because Loyola hasn't gotten around to building one yet!!
http://www.loyolaramblers.com/facilities/loyc-facilities.html
Ok. Our facilities are top notch. I give. Maybe Loyola decided to put their dollars 1st toward their indoor gym and not a track.
Maybe some of you math guys can figure this out.
If New Mexico State was in the HL this year as member #11, what would our conference RPI be today? Asking out of morbid curiosity.
I truly believe if the Athletics Department put an aggressive campaign towards the Valley, the valley would take us. Some will say that wasn't the case 4 years ago, so why would they want us now? I think we have shown more consistency in the showcase sport.
Quote from: agibson on December 12, 2016, 01:14:30 PMStill waiting for the full results to be processed but it looks like Couch (Lansing) went with Davis (CBS/SI) and took us all the way to #22. While Alexander (Cleveland) and McCoy (Columbus) both dropped us. Meaning someone else brought us in at #25.
Collegepolltraker.com got it back together, and "somebody else" turns out to be Kelly Hines. Looks to be a beat writer for University of Tulsa. First I remember her ever voting for us. Bring it on!
Oakland continues to move up the mid-major poll. That's a remarkable number of RPI 200+ wins they've got. I guess noone will consciously hold a loss at Michigan State against them, but X-2 will look less shiny. It'll be interesting to see if they can hold serve against Wright State and Northern Kentucky when League play opens. Otherwise, Georgia coming to the O'Rena seems like a great game to get, and a good test. And their big test will be at the ARC.
VU now 5th in cbi mid-major poll.
Quote from: valpo64 on December 13, 2016, 12:56:04 PM
VU now 5th in cbi mid-major poll.
Which one is this? I'm not sure I know it.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2016/12/12/13926570/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-gonzaga-bulldogs-unanimous-number-one-wichita-state-saint-marys
has us at #5 also.
Here's the link to the one I posted yesterday...
http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 03:03:37 PM
Quote from: agibson on December 12, 2016, 02:56:48 PM
Quote from: wh on December 12, 2016, 02:34:10 PMThe HL has fallen to 20th in conference RPI. There are 26 conferences outside of the Big 5 plus the Big East. Of those 26, the HL is in the bottom half (14th). We are now in Low Major territory.
At least above the Summit. They've got _two_ teams that haven't yet recorded a D1 win.
A D- is always better than an F. ;)
LeCrone has definitely dropped the ball. The league had several teams win NCAA tournament games and totaled 20 wins from 2001 to 2011. LeCrone didn't leverage this and let the league crumble in front of our eyes. With that NCAAT money all but dried up, LeCrone made a desperation money grab in moving the tourney to Detroit, and in the process, kept the league's best team out of the tourney.
Valpo needs to either get a new commissioner with new ideas in place or move forward with plans to find another conference.
Horizon League Power Rankings: The one month in edition
Valpo and Oakland remain at the top, but the rest of the conference has shuffled.
by Andrew Evans@andyevans16 Dec 13, 2016, 12:12pm PST
The last time we took a stab at ranking the Horizon League teams was before the season began. At that point, Valparaiso and Oakland seemed to be the front runners with the rest of the pack chasing them.
Now that we are a month deep into the season, it's time to take another look at the Horizon League. Valparaiso and Oakland have lived up to, if not exceeded, their preseason expectations. They remain atop the rankings but the remainder of the conference has seen a shakeup:
Power Rankings
1. Valparaiso Crusaders (8-2)
Preseason: #1
Valparaiso came into the year with high expectations and have lived up to them. The Crusaders already have three KenPom top-100 wins (Alabama, BYU, and Rhode Island). The win over Rhode Island was the program's first over a ranked opponent since 1998, and dispelled any concerns about how the team would transition with new head coach Matt Lottich at the helm. Alec Peters continues to carry the team on offense, averaging 25.3 points and 9.2 rebounds per game. If they can heat up from three-point range they will be even more dangerous.
This Week: 12/17 vs. Indiana State
2. Oakland Golden Grizzlies (9-1)
Preseason: #2
Oakland boasts the best record in the Horizon League and finally climbed into the Mid-Major Madness Power Rankings. Martez Walker has stepped up as the Golden Grizzlies' leading scorer, averaging 18.5 points per game, while Stevie Clark has averaged over six assists per game. It has been a group effort as Oakland tries to replace Kay Felder's production. It's worked out so far, but Oakland lacks a quality win. All of its wins are against teams rated higher than 200 in the KenPom standings. Until Oakland proves itself against quality competition, it will be difficult to vault Valparaiso.
This Week: None
3. Northern Kentucky Norse (7-3)
Preseason: #7
The Norse have moved themselves up from their preseason rank. They've won four in a row after a .500 start, and four of their seven wins have come on the road. Drew McDonald leads the team in both scoring and rebounding, averaging 18.3 points and 7.9 rebounds a game. However, it was Lavone Holland II who led the Norse to two wins this past week en route to being named Horizon League Player of the Week. The knock against the Norse is similar to the knock on Oakland: they don't have a top-200 win. Despite this, their experience winning away from home should come in handy come league play.
This Week: 12/18 vs. Eastern Washington
4. Wright State Raiders (6-4)
Preseason: #6
The Raiders got off to a hot start, beginning the year 6-1. They've cooled off substantially, dropping three in a row. If it's any consolation, the three losses came on the road. The Raiders have proven they can win at home, sweeping a three game tournament at the Nutter Center against CSU Bakersfield, North Dakota and North Florida. Mark Alstork leads the Raiders in scoring with 20.7 points per game, but also turns the ball over more than five times a game. They'll need him to take better care of the ball to get back to their winning ways.
This Week: 12/13 vs. Urbana, 12/18 @ Kent State
5. Green Bay Phoenix (4-5)
Preseason: #3
It's been a disappointing start for the Phoenix as they look to defend their Horizon League tournament title. Like Valparaiso, Green Bay has struggled shooting the three at just 28 percent as a team. Unlike the Crusaders, though, it has cost Green Bay in the win column. The Phoenix were blown out in an early road game against Pacific and haven't been able to find consistency since. They can claim a better win than either Oakland and Northern Kentucky, since they defeated Toledo on the road. However, the losses are starting to pile up. Freshman Trevor Anderson has been a bright spot thus far; he's second on the team in scoring and is shooting just under 40 percent from three.
This Week: 12/14 @ Wisconsin, 12/17 vs. Belmont
6. Milwaukee Panthers (4-6)
Preseason: #10
The Panthers have been surprisingly competitive. With no returning starters, it was difficult to expect anything from Milwaukee. Solid three-point shooting led to wins over Jacksonville and Montana State, while a staunch defense allowed them to beat UC Irvine. While Brock Stull and Cody Wichmann have led an inexperienced group, Milwaukee isn't threatening the top of the league any time soon. But, they could take advantage of a weak bottom half of the conference to exceed preseason expectations.
This Week: 12/14 @ Ohio, 12/17 vs. Western Illinois
7. Youngstown State Penguins (5-6)
Preseason: #8
The Penguins have the only KenPom top-100 win of any team in the conference that isn't Valparaiso. They opened up the year with an impressive win at home against Akron. However, they've also racked up some questionable losses, most recently a double-digit loss to American. It's hard not to view the win over Akron as a fluke at this point, but that win does show that the Penguins can be dangerous in the right circumstances. With one of the best scorers in the league in Cameron Morse, the Penguins can't be taken lightly.
This Week: 12/14 vs. Niagara
8. Cleveland State Vikings (3-6)
Preseason: #9
The Vikings are still in rebuilding mode. They have a decent win at home over Canisius, but they still haven't won a game away from the Wolstein Center. Rob Edwards is following up a solid freshman season by averaging over 15 points per game. Most notably, Edwards dropped 28 points in a loss to Kentucky at Rupp Arena. Edwards is the future for Cleveland State, but the Vikings don't seem ready to compete with the top half of the league yet.
This Week: 12/17 @ Ohio
9. Illinois Chicago Flames (4-5)
Preseason: #5
Much was made about the Flames' freshman class. They're talented, but have struggled to find an identity. Dikembe Dixson is clearly the star, scoring 22.2 points per game. Freshman Marcus Ottey has also impressed by averaging double figure scoring. Despite their efforts, UIC's best win has come against Cal Poly. This team has potential and is an improvement over last year, when they finished with just five wins and didn't beat a Div. 1 opponent until Jan. 30. More is expected, and they're are a team to keep an eye on as conference play approaches.
This Week: 12/14 @ DePaul, 12/17 vs. Loyola Chicago
10. Detroit Titans (1-9)
Preseason: #4
It's still early, but I'm willing to admit I was wrong about Detroit. I had them finishing fourth in my preseason predictions, but a month into the season they're still without a win against Div. 1 competition. Detroit probably isn't quite as bad as their record suggests, however. Seven of their ten games have been on the road, and four of those were against KenPom top-100 opponents. At this point it seems likely they'll finish near the bottom of the league, but could still dig themselves out.
This Week: 12/17 vs. Western Kentucky
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2016/12/13/13931784/horizon-league-power-rankings-the-one-month-in-edition-valpo-oakland-alec-peters-crusaders-norse
QuoteValpo needs to either get a new commissioner with new ideas in place or move forward with plans to find another conference.
Just with the last few years many of the conferences having been consolidating and adding/subtracting school from conferences. Pretty much has to do with TV rights and trying to breakthrough the market in different geographical regions. I just don't see a Valpo switching conferences anytime in the near future. It's just hard to find the right fit geographically. From a basketball program perspective I'd love it if we could join the A10 or MVC, but MVC has been down since losing Creighton. The now crown jewel of the MVC is Wichita State which wants out of the MVC and wants an invite into the new Big East, which is made up mostly of private schools.
In a perfect scenario I'd like to see new Midwest Mid-Major conference be formed, and just pluck all the top mid-major programs from other conferences to make one "elite" mid-major conference: Valpo, Belmont, Northern Iowa, Dayton, SLU, VCU, SJU, Wichita State, etc. Travel would have to factor in, but its just a pipe dream anyways.
Our resident Milwaukee and Oakland fans aren't going to be happy with your list 😂
Quote from: VU2014 on December 15, 2016, 09:48:46 AMbut MVC has been down since losing Creighton.
RPI has them currently a top 10 conference. HL is in the third tier.... :'(
I'm not a large donor but wish the donors would put pressure on the athletic department to be more aggressive in seeking the MVC or forcing a better hand for the HL.
Quote from: VU2014 on December 15, 2016, 09:48:46 AM
QuoteValpo needs to either get a new commissioner with new ideas in place or move forward with plans to find another conference.
Just with the last few years many of the conferences having been consolidating and adding/subtracting school from conferences. Pretty much has to do with TV rights and trying to breakthrough the market in different geographical regions. I just don't see a Valpo switching conferences anytime in the near future. It's just hard to find the right fit geographically. From a basketball program perspective I'd love it if we could join the A10 or MVC, but MVC has been down since losing Creighton. The now crown jewel of the MVC is Wichita State which wants out of the MVC and wants an invite into the new Big East, which is made up mostly of private schools.
In a perfect scenario I'd like to see new Midwest Mid-Major conference be formed, and just pluck all the top mid-major programs from other conferences to make one "elite" mid-major conference: Valpo, Belmont, Northern Iowa, Dayton, SLU, VCU, SJU, Wichita State, etc. Travel would have to factor in, but its just a pipe dream anyways.
The MVC has 7 NCAA tournament wins in the 3 years since Creighton left. Creighton has 1. The MVC consistently has multiple bids, ranked teams, and multiple teams in the top 100 RPI, even without Creighton. Wichita State isn't going anywhere due to a lack of a football team and their geographical position. Their budget is high enough to keep one of the best coaches in the country, which will keep them as a Gonzaga-like program for years to come. UNI also has a great coach, and has been a consistent program for the past few years. Even beyond that, in the past 10 years, Drake has been ranked, Southern Illinois has been ranked with a S16 appearance, Missouri State had a top 25 RPI season, Bradley has been to the S16, Indiana State has been top 100 RPI multiple times, and Evansville just recently became fairly competitive, almost making it to the tournament last year.
The MVC would make a ton of sense for Valpo (that have to want us first), and I think it would make sense for them as well.
The A10 does NOT make sense from both sides. Geographically, it would require a ton of cost just on travel. Do we really want the softball team traveling to Rhode Island for conference games? We'd be draining what little athletic revunes and donations we have, just in straight travel. For the A10, they'd be gaining a basketball team that hasn't been ranked ever, and hasn't had an NCAA tournament win since 1998. They'd also be gaining some poor teams in other sports, such as women's basketball. It just doesn't make sense on either side.
Finally, I don't see the support or feasibility for a new conference like they. The A10 schools wouldn't move laterally like that. I can't really see the MVC schools moving either. There's a ton of costs on both sides that come with the creation of a new conference, and I don't really see a huge TV contact with those schools.
Quote from: a3uge on December 15, 2016, 11:41:09 AMWichita State isn't going anywhere due to a lack of a football team and their geographical position.
I thought the same thing, but the rumors keep coming. Here's a story I just saw today:
http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/sources-wichita-state-emerges-potential-basketball-addition-aac/ (http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/sources-wichita-state-emerges-potential-basketball-addition-aac/)
And here is a link to the recently completed (June 2016) 69 page consultant's report on WSU football feasibility.
http://webs.wichita.edu/depttools/depttoolsmemberfiles/wsunews/wsu_football_report_css_2016.pdf
They are seriously considering restoring FB sooner than later. The big question is whether to go FCS or FBS. The former is less expensive but might not generate as much income. The latter is very expensive both in initial startup as well as ongoing costs, but the revenue upside is a bit better. Either decision would require the additional cost of adding new women's sports to meet Title IX proportionality requirements. If they choose FCS, there is a simple solution: The Missouri Valley FB conference, which already includes many of the MVC basketball schools. With that the MVC would probably remain unchanged with WSU remaining. If they decide to go FBS, they would have to receive an invitation from one of the following Group of 5 conferences: American, Mountain West, C-USA, MAC, Sunbelt.
My bet is they'll restore FB, go FCS, and stay in the Valley.
QuoteThe MVC would make a ton of sense for Valpo (that have to want us first), and I think it would make sense for them as well.
I believe it was 3-4 years ago when MVC officials were on campus scouting Valpo as a possible new candidate to get an invite. I remember everyone on campus thought we were going to move to the MVC, and all the students were really excited. It was extremely disappointing when everyone found out we weren't getting an invite. I remember talking to a few people "in the know" who said some of the main sticking points on why we didn't get the invite was the lackluster athletic facilities (not just the arena) (I know people are tired of that discussion, but its somewhat an important factor), the MVC wanted to tap in the Chicagoland area for recruiting (Loyola got the invite) and strategically gain viewership for TV for the regional markets.
Another somewhat funny story from a former students perspective was when President Heckler sent out multiple emails to the student body and through social media about a huge surprise announcement a few years back around the time we were still being rumored as possible candidate to join the MVC. President Heckler very publicly hyped up the announcement for about a week and everyone thought it was surprise was that we were switch conferences, and then it turns out the big announcement was the first annual 'VU Day of Caring' haha. Wow the student body was so irked by that haha. Everyone thought it was either a new building announcement (New ARC, etc.) or the conference. Some students were particularly irked because a mass email got sent out that day asking them to Donate to the VU Day of Caring Fund, while they were also currently paying tuition and paying down student loans.
As conference play nears, there will be no top 100 opportunities. For the next two and half months we can only lose ground..... :crazy:
I'm sure there's a conference realignment thread this could be moved to, but since the conversation is happening here, I thought this information might be useful to those who are thinking about the possibilities. Below is a table showing which teams have earned at-large bids to the NCAA tournament from the MVC and A10 over the last 12 seasons (automatic qualifiers are not shown).
Year | MVC | A10 |
2016 | Wichita St | VCU, Dayton |
2015 | Wichita St | Dayton, Davidson |
2014 | None | VCU, Dayton, SLU, UMass, George Washington |
2013 | Wichita St | VCU, LaSalle, Butler*, Temple |
2012 | Wichita St | Xavier*, SLU |
2011 | None | Xavier*, Temple |
2010 | None | Xavier*, Richmond |
2009 | None | Xavier*, Dayton |
2008 | None | St. Joseph's, Xavier* |
2007 | SIU | Xavier* |
2006 | Bradley, Wichita St, UNI | George Washington |
2005 | SIU, UNI | None |
*No longer in league. |
QuoteAs conference play nears, there will be no top 100 opportunities. For the next two and half months we can only lose ground.....
To be honest I always thought our path the NCAA tourney was through the Dumpster Fire Conference Tournament in Detroit created by LeCrone (The system was fine the way it was before, by awarding the Conference Tourney to the winner of the Conference player in the regular season. It helped reward the best team in the conference, to put the best showing in the NCAA Tourney. That Detroit tourney is such an unforgivable mess by LeCrone. Nobody wants to travel to Detroit of all places to watch a game. Plus its a very awkward environment to play a game.)
We have some good non-conference play wins against BYU, Alabama, RI and Missouri State on the road, and we've play against high RPI teams like Kentucky and Oregon. Thats a solid resume so far, but when you take a Macro view of the type of people who are on the selection committee which is so Power Conference biased its not fair, and are the mold of a Jay Bilas type...
https://twitter.com/ESPNCBB/status/809095202061295616
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/809107700256739328
Jay Bilas is intelligent guy, he is so Duke and Power Conference bias its appalling. I've followed his analysis for years and he very rarely gives any love to good Mid-Major programs bids to the NCAA tourney. If he was the Czar of the NCAA tourney he'd get rid of automatic conference bids. Definitely get the a sense of superiority and smugness.
IMO talking about moving to the MVC is as big a waste of time as talking about upgrading the ARC and raising the profile of the HL - none are going to happen.
The MVC press release from
2013 announcing the addition of Loyola said, "Loyola is a world class university with world class facilities located in a world class city." Valpo has a very good men's BB program and that's it. It has the worst athletic facilities in the HL and absolutely no institutional commitment to improving them, perpetually terrible women's BB and men's football programs, and is an annual McCafferty trophy bottom feeder (which tells you everything you need to know about the all-around quality of Valpo athletics). Exactly what value would the MVC see in that resume?
By the way, didn't Loyola win the McCafferty trophy the last year they were in the HL? There's more to the image of a successful athletic department than men's basketball. Valpo's athletic department is far from a failure, but in sum total it is probably mediocre at best.
Quote from: wh on December 15, 2016, 01:46:10 PM
IMO talking about moving to the MVC is as big a waste of time as talking about upgrading the ARC and raising the profile of the HL - none are going to happen.
The MVC press release from
2013 announcing the addition of Loyola said, "Loyola is a world class university with world class facilities located in a world class city." Valpo has a very good men's BB program and that's it. It has the worst athletic facilities in the HL and absolutely no institutional commitment to improving them, perpetually terrible women's BB and men's football programs, and is an annual McCafferty trophy bottom feeder (which tells you everything you need to know about the all-around quality of Valpo athletics). Exactly what value would the MVC see in that resume?
By the way, didn't Loyola win the McCafferty trophy the last year they were in the HL? There's more to the image of a successful athletic department than men's basketball. Valpo's athletic department is far from a failure, but in sum total it is probably mediocre at best.
May have been a deliberate over statement or perhaps just a lack of interest in other sports. But neither your statement that Valpo doesn't have any other sports with success other than Men's Basketball as well as your statement that Valpo has the worst athletic facilities in the Horizon League are true. Just last year the Men's Tennis team won the conference championship and the Softball team won the conference tournament title to advance to the NCAAs. In 2012 both the baseball and softball teams played in the NCAA tournament. Suffice it to say that there are additional athletics successes beyond Men's basketball.
To begin with, Valpo is the only school who even plays all the sports offered by the Horizon League.Valpo also has a bowling team. You can't be the worst if other schools don't have any facilities with which to compare! Examples: Detroit and Green Bay don't have baseball teams. Milwaukee doesn't have a softball team. Detroit plays softball without a field. Neither Oakland or Detroit have tracks. Oakland doesn't have a tennis complex. It plays on city courts. I don't think you believe either Calahan or the Orena are better facilities than the ARC.
The reality is that overall, YSU and UIC probably has the best facilities. Obviously, they are a state schools. Seven of the League's schools have enrollments of more than 15,000. This compares to Valpo's undergrad enrollment of less than 4,000. Only Green Bay at 6,549 and Detroit at 5,700 are similar in enrollment.
Finally, remember that Valpo and YSU are the only schools sponsoring football. It is a big cost and does limit spending in other areas most likely.
**Oakland fan warning**
This may be the most surprising conversation I've read on this board. I think you all bring up some legitimate points about the athletic investing that would need to increase, but isn't that exactly what the MVC would provide for you? As far as the schools that would be interested in making a jump your "problems" seem far more easily fixed than the others. Not even sure who the others are. One of the Dakota schools, perhaps?
And as an aside, Oakland built a brand new Track and tennis complex. Though I'm not sure why we don't have a men's tennis team.
https://oakland.edu/recwell/recreation-facilities/outdoor-complex/
Quote from: wh on December 15, 2016, 01:46:10 PM
IMO talking about moving to the MVC is as big a waste of time as talking about upgrading the ARC and raising the profile of the HL - none are going to happen.
Agreed. In fact, even considering the MVC or the A-10 as "possibilities" is also a bit ridiculous, unless the conversation is within the context of a realignment shift.
I've said it on the board before, and I'll say it again. When Villanova, a private, FCS football school applied for ACC membership in 2011, that should have sounded the alarm bells at Valpo as far as conference affiliation was concerned. IMO, Villanova's interest signaled absolute conference membership fluidity at both the major and mid major level. I don't know if we put ourselves to be in the best position to be attractive to other conferences then. I'm guessing we didn't, and so here VU is now. Not that I think the HL is awful, but it's not a two bid league.
And since we're talking
again about a fanciful move to the MVC, not to be sanctimonious, but I'm not even sure at this point whether a Wichita-less MVC would even be a complete step up for Valpo if it was invited to take WSU's place. The move would make absolute sense if Valpo began valuing the public/private distinction again (if it ever did) as far as conference membership and affiliation was concerned. But as far as multi-bids are concerned, all that at-large chart posted above did was reaffirm that right now WSU is to the MVC now what Butler once was to the HL a few years ago. With WSU gone, would the MVC really be that far removed from the HL bid wise? I'll let you experts figure that one out.
There is the potential for additional conference shifts in the future, and some might be major IMO, particularly if the Big 12 dismantles after its media agreements end; or, if something lesser occurs such as if C-USA somehow contracts or the Sun Belt expands, a minor shift may occur. During the interim, the dream scenario for those of you looking to leave the HL would be for the MVC to come a callin', add NMSU, keep WSU, and move to a 12 team, 6 west and 6 east divisional format.
Regardless, it is sad that the most recent capital campaign offered $0.00 to firm ARC renovations given the potential for more realignment shifts in the future. Valpo hasn't learned from recent history it would seem, IMO.
Reality is almost always less frightening than the unknown so lets think briefly about the known positives. :thumbsup:
Quote from: VU2014 on December 15, 2016, 01:19:04 PMWe have some good non-conference play wins against BYU, Alabama, RI and Missouri State on the road, and we've play against high RPI teams like Kentucky and Oregon. Thats a solid resume so far
I just looked at the schedules for BYU, Alabama and RI. If they play some solid near term basketball I can see reasonable paths for all to make significant RPI jumps thus aiding our seeding potential. Alabama looked greatly improved at Oregon and BYU was impressive in their win over Colorado. We are ahead of our expectations and I remain optimistic this trend can continue. Our RPI even reached 31 earlier tonight! Maybe that was from the Alabama win? Yes I know it will soon start falling but I will worry about that later.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on December 15, 2016, 05:13:27 PMRegardless, it is sad that the most recent capital campaign offered $0.00 to firm ARC renovations
Small solace, I imagine. But, remember that the campaign isn't targeting -any- buildings. They're not picking on Athletics in particular here.
Quote from: vu72 on December 15, 2016, 03:22:25 PMIt [football] is a big cost and does limit spending in other areas most likely.
Not for Valpo because of the non-scholarship aspect. Yes, there are costs but they don't hurt the other financial situations in the whole athletic dept that much.
Quote from: arsenal926 on December 15, 2016, 04:45:10 PMThough I'm not sure why we [Oakland] don't have a men's tennis team.
Most likely title IX balance between men's and women's sports.
Quote from: agibson on December 16, 2016, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on December 15, 2016, 05:13:27 PMRegardless, it is sad that the most recent capital campaign offered $0.00 to firm ARC renovations
Small solace, I imagine. But, remember that the campaign isn't targeting -any- buildings. They're not picking on Athletics in particular here.
As I posted earlier, the campaign's 250 million includes 1 million for completing the track. ;)
Quote from: vu72 on December 16, 2016, 02:36:51 PM
Quote from: agibson on December 16, 2016, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on December 15, 2016, 05:13:27 PMRegardless, it is sad that the most recent capital campaign offered $0.00 to firm ARC renovations
Small solace, I imagine. But, remember that the campaign isn't targeting -any- buildings. They're not picking on Athletics in particular here.
As I posted earlier, the campaign's 250 million includes 1 million for completing the track. ;)
1/250? About the same as Alec's change in height after a haircut. Statistical significance of zero.
https://www.twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/810681586752442368
[tweet]810897057829552128[/tweet]
We lost three points from Davis (#22 --> #25) but only lost two overall. Meaning we gained a point from somebody. Interesting.
Quote from: agibson on December 19, 2016, 11:23:21 AM
[tweet]810897057829552128[/tweet]
We lost three points from Davis (#22 --> #25) but only lost two overall. Meaning we gained a point from somebody. Interesting.
Since we have no more chances at quality wins, the Top 25 becomes more about other teams losing. With only 2 losses, both to ranked teams, it'll be hard to justify dropping Valpo from the top 25, so I presume we'll continue to pick up votes from that 25 spot.
Quote from: a3uge on December 19, 2016, 12:10:28 PMSince we have no more chances at quality wins, the Top 25 becomes more about other teams losing. With only 2 losses, both to ranked teams, it'll be hard to justify dropping Valpo from the top 25, so I presume we'll continue to pick up votes from that 25 spot.
If we're going to climb, it's going to be about other teams losing. And retaining what should seem like an increasingly shiny X-2 record.
26 teams currently have 0 or 1 losses. All of the 0 loss teams are in the top 25, and half of the 1 loss teams. Another 36 teams have 2 losses - nobody in the top 25 has more than 2. The number of teams with few losses should decrease quickly once conference play begins, and teams have to play road games. Can we avoid a loss, for top 25 voters anyone will likely be a "bad" loss, long enough to crack the rankings?
But, I think there's still plenty of potential for teams below us to pick up flashy wins and pass us from below. We'll see. Happened already this week (presumably) on Seth Davis' ballot, and he's self-consciously a Valpo cheerleader.
All we can do is keep on winning.
Interesting that Wichita State, who was #27, got dropped completely after losing at home to Oklahoma State. OK State climbs above us on the result.
Rather mysteriously, Loyola picked up a vote. It's John Feinstein, who specializes in highlighting some mid-major or another at #25. They have beaten three Horizon League teams in their last three games, including @UIC. But, it's hard to seep preferring them to us. Maybe we're too "establishment" for Feinstein now.
Seton Hall's resume looks attractive, not too surprising they passed us with the win over South Carolina.
Quote from: agibson on December 19, 2016, 11:23:21 AM
[tweet]810897057829552128[/tweet]
We lost three points from Davis (#22 --> #25) but only lost two overall. Meaning we gained a point from somebody. Interesting.
And we're back to getting one vote in the coaches' poll. Always nice to be in both polls! Was (literally?) unheard of until 2015. But pretty regular since. Good years to be a Valpo fan!
Quote from: agibson on December 13, 2016, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: agibson on December 12, 2016, 01:14:30 PMStill waiting for the full results to be processed but it looks like Couch (Lansing) went with Davis (CBS/SI) and took us all the way to #22. While Alexander (Cleveland) and McCoy (Columbus) both dropped us. Meaning someone else brought us in at #25.
Collegepolltraker.com got it back together, and "somebody else" turns out to be Kelly Hines. Looks to be a beat writer for University of Tulsa. First I remember her ever voting for us. Bring it on!
Quote from: agibson on December 19, 2016, 11:23:21 AM
We lost three points from Davis (#22 --> #25) but only lost two overall. Meaning we gained a point from somebody. Interesting.
Turns out Graham Couch took us from #22 --> #21, Hines dropped us, and Matt McCoy brought us back aboard. Maybe with a win over Santa Clara Elton Alexander, maybe Hines too, will add us back on.
and we got out coaches poll vote again... wonder who that is?
Others receiving votes: Florida 30, Oklahoma State 21, Maryland 20, Arkansas 15, Miami 13, Virginia Tech 8, California 7, Middle Tennessee 7, Wichita St 7, Seton Hall 7, TCU 6, Texas Tech 3, Nevada 2, Colorado 2, Valparaiso 1, Michigan State 1, Minnesota 1
(Yes, I changed the sort-order on the last three...)
Quote from: talksalot on December 19, 2016, 01:08:08 PMand we got out coaches poll vote again... wonder who that is?
Quote
The USA TODAY Sports Board of Coaches is made up of 32 head coaches at Division I institutions. All are members of the National Association of Basketball Coaches.
The board for the 2016-17 season: Randy Bennett, Saint Mary's; Jim Boeheim, Syracuse; Tad Boyle, Colorado; Todd Bozeman, Morgan State; Glenn Braica, St. Francis Brooklyn; Scott Cherry, High Point; Tim Cluess, Iona; Jon Coffman, IP-Fort Wayne; Mick Cronin, Cincinnati; Keith Dambrot, Akron; Cameron Dollar, Seattle; Scott Drew, Baylor; Matt Driscoll, North Florida; Bill Evans, Idaho State; Steve Fisher, San Diego State; Mark Fox, Georgia; John Gallagher, Hartford; Matthew Graves, South Alabama; George Ivory, Arkansas-Pine Bluff; Ben Jacobson, Northern Iowa; James Jones, Yale; Greg Kampe, Oakland; Dave Loos, Austin Peay; Mike McConathy, Northwestern State; Greg McDermott, Creighton; Chris Mooney, Richmond; Matt Painter, Purdue; Brett Reed, Lehigh; Mike Rhoades, Rice; Zach Spiker, Drexel; Bob Williams, UC-Santa Barbara; Mike Young, Wofford.
I'd forgotten how many mid and low-major coaches are on the panel.
Traditionally we've wondered about Scott (when do we have to start using his last name?) and Matt Driscoll down at North Florida. This year, I imagine Randy Bennett at St. Mary's might remember us.
I suppose it may not have been Coffman at IPFW! Hard to say about Kampe.
I wonder how many of these are done by the coach, and how many by an assistant, or a manager, or such like. I bet Kampe does his.
Quote from: agibson on December 19, 2016, 01:23:02 PM
I wonder how many of these are done by the coach, and how many by an assistant, or a manager, or such like. I bet Kampe does his.
Kampe's been asked about his during his coach's show. He 100% does his and says he watches a lot of non-prep work college basketball.
Quote from: agibson on December 19, 2016, 01:23:02 PMHard to say about Kampe. [i.e. whether or not the vote might have been his]
I *love* his willingness to interact with fans. He replied to me on twitter within an hour.
[tweet]810936613190725633[/tweet]
The reply chain got a little tangled, maybe as he was tagging in Paul.
[tweet]810927637594042368[/tweet]
I'd not realized it was his first year on the poll.
New Mid-Major rankings:
http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php
Quote from: wh on December 19, 2016, 10:09:14 PM
New Mid-Major rankings:
http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php
4 teams from the Sun Belt and 3 teams from the Missouri Valley, 3 teams from the WCC - who would've thought.
Quote from: a3uge on December 19, 2016, 10:27:20 PM
Quote from: wh on December 19, 2016, 10:09:14 PM
New Mid-Major rankings:
http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php
4 teams from the Sun Belt and 3 teams from the Missouri Valley, 3 teams from the WCC - who would've thought.
Not to mention three from the Horizon, obviously. Valpo at #3, but practically a three-way tie for 2nd. Oakland continues in tenth. Northern Kentucky enters at #24.
Quote from: agibson on December 19, 2016, 11:20:14 PM
Quote from: a3uge on December 19, 2016, 10:27:20 PM
Quote from: wh on December 19, 2016, 10:09:14 PM
New Mid-Major rankings:
http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php
4 teams from the Sun Belt and 3 teams from the Missouri Valley, 3 teams from the WCC - who would've thought.
Not to mention three from the Horizon, obviously. Valpo at #3, but practically a three-way tie for 2nd. Oakland continues in tenth. Northern Kentucky enters at #24.
Oh yeah. Hats off to nku. I was always supportive of them entering the Horizon, but I thought it was awful timing last year with them not being D1 eligible yet (and likely still terrible). They only have one senior contributor, and a bunch of freshman talent, so they'll be a contender pretty shortly.
Mid Major Madness Power Rankings
(Includes the A-10)
Moved from 4th to 3rd, replacing Dayton.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2016/12/19/14009598/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-week-6-gonzaga-saint-marys-dayton-rhode-island
Quote from: wh on December 20, 2016, 07:03:07 PMMoved from 4th to 3rd, replacing Dayton.
From 5th to 4th, you mean.
I see we're down to #13 in the MidMajor poll this week.
1. Gonzaga (31) 15-0 775 1 West Coast
2. Wichita State 14-3 730 3 Missouri Valley
3. Saint Mary's 14-1 713 4 West Coast
4. UNCW 15-2 673 5 Colonial
5. UT Arlingtion 12-4 601 2 Sun Belt
6. Oakland 14-3 588 10 Horizon
7. New Mexico State 15-2 511 8 Western Athletic
8. Fort Wayne 13-4 491 9 Summit
9. ETSU 12-3 485 11 Southern
10. Chattanooga 12-4 483 7 Southern
11. Akron 12-3 469 14 Mid-American
12. Illinois State 12-4 466 16 Missouri Valley
13. Valparaiso 12-4 397 6 Horizon
14. Monmouth 12-5 362 12 Metro Atlantic
15. Ohio 10-3 345 15 Mid-American
Northern Kentucky is #27 and Wright State got 1... good enough for 49th.
Oakland passed us here, probably deservedly, and picked up a vote in the USA Today Coaches Poll besides.
I've not had the heart (guts?) to ask Kampe if he voted for himself. But, either way, good to have another quality team in the league.
Ft Wayne ahead of us too :(
No AP votes just yet - that would have been a surprise. But, some love from Seth Davis:
[tweet]823292294187151361[/tweet]
[tweet]823364151913443329[/tweet]
Oakland had fallen from 6th to 11th in the midmajor coaches poll last week, while we stayed at 13th. Perhaps we'll pass them tonight.
http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php
Green Bay was 32nd, with a decent crop of some three dozen points.
There were two weeks where Oakland rose in the midmajor power rankings, while we fell. We got as low as 15th and they as high as 12th. Last week we rose to 10th, they almost fell out at 23rd.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/1/17/14297048/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-week-9-chaos-illinois-state-red-birds-la-salle-northeastern
I suppose that recent trend is likely to continue this week.
I enjoy Valpo seeing Valpo getting love from the national media guys, but as for the Seth Davis's and Joe Lundardi's of the worlds don't know. The NCAA Tourney selection committee is a sham and is so completely Power conference biased that it makes it tough on the Valpo's of the world to get an outright bid. Last year was a joke that we weren't in the tournament. Although it lead to a great NIT run and possibly more positive media for Valpo with the NIT run, not to mention it was very entertaining.
Side Note:
Lunardi's lastest Bracketology has Valpo as a 13 seed playing Creighton
Quote from: agibson on January 23, 2017, 11:45:18 AMI suppose that recent trend [Oakland falling, Valpo rising and hopefully overtaking them] is likely to continue this week.
Probably needless to say, but, Oakland only got that single vote in the national coaches poll that one time. No repeat visits. Still, good for at least two Horizon League teams to get a vote this season.
OK, we didn't make the Coaches poll either... anything interesting jump out???
The USA TODAY Sports Board of Coaches is made up of 32 head coaches at Division I institutions. All are members of the National Association of Basketball Coaches. The board for the 2015-16 season: Randy Bennett, Saint Mary's; Jim Boeheim, Syracuse; Todd Bozeman, Morgan State; Glenn Braica, St. Francis Brooklyn; Scott Cherry, High Point; Tim Cluess, Iona; Ed Conroy, Tulane; Keith Dambrot, Akron; Cameron Dollar, Seattle; Scott Drew, Baylor; Matt Driscoll, North Florida; Steve Fisher, San Diego State; Bruiser Flint, Drexel; Mark Fox, Georgia; John Gallagher, Hartford; Matthew Graves, South Alabama; Ray Harper, Western Kentucky; George Ivory, Arkansas-Pine Bluff; Ben Jacobson, Northern Iowa; Rob Jeter, Wisconsin-Milwaukee; James Jones, Yale; Mike McConathy, Northwestern State; Greg McDermott, Creighton; Chris Mooney, Richmond; Matt Painter, Purdue; Randy Rahe, Weber State; Heath Schroyer, Tennessee-Martin; Joe Scott, Denver; Zach Spiker, Army; Wayne Tinkle, Oregon State; Bob Williams, UC-Santa Barbara; Mike Young, Wofford.
Weird. Is that last year's list? Kampe's a voter this year - probably more or less replacing Jeter for the Horizon League. A few weeks ago the list, probably from ESPN, reflected that. I can't trivially find such a list, at the moment.
Quote from: agibson on January 23, 2017, 01:06:41 PMprobably from ESPN,
I copied the list from the espn site.
Quote from: talksalot on January 23, 2017, 01:08:18 PM
Quote from: agibson on January 23, 2017, 01:06:41 PMprobably from ESPN,
I copied the list from the espn site.
Right. They definitely have your list at the moment, and for previous weeks in this season.
I suspect some kind of data management error on their side. Obviously Jeter's not voting this year.
Here's USA Today's version of the list, from earlier this season
http://sportspolls.usatoday.com/ncaa/basketball-men/polls/coaches-poll/2016/1/
Quote
The USA TODAY Sports Board of Coaches is made up of 32 head coaches at Division I institutions. All are members of the National Association of Basketball Coaches. The board for the 2016-17 season: Randy Bennett, Saint Mary's; Jim Boeheim, Syracuse; Tad Boyle, Colorado; Todd Bozeman, Morgan State; Glenn Braica, St. Francis Brooklyn; Scott Cherry, High Point; Tim Cluess, Iona; Jon Coffman, IP-Fort Wayne; Mick Cronin, Cincinnati; Keith Dambrot, Akron; Cameron Dollar, Seattle; Scott Drew, Baylor; Matt Driscoll, North Florida; Bill Evans, Idaho State; Steve Fisher, San Diego State; Mark Fox, Georgia; John Gallagher, Hartford; Matthew Graves, South Alabama; Mike Rhoades, Rice; George Ivory, Arkansas-Pine Bluff; Ben Jacobson, Northern Iowa; James Jones, Yale; Greg Kampe, Oakland; Dave Loos, Austin Peay; Mike McConathy, Northwestern State; Greg McDermott, Creighton; Chris Mooney, Richmond; Matt Painter, Purdue; Brett Reed, Lehigh; Zach Spiker, Drexel; Bob Williams, UC-Santa Barbara; Mike Young, Wofford.
Quote from: talksalot on January 23, 2017, 01:02:52 PM
OK, we didn't make the Coaches poll either... anything interesting jump out???
The USA TODAY Sports Board of Coaches is made up of 32 head coaches at Division I institutions. All are members of the National Association of Basketball Coaches. The board for the 2015-16 season: Randy Bennett, Saint Mary's; Jim Boeheim, Syracuse; Todd Bozeman, Morgan State; Glenn Braica, St. Francis Brooklyn; Scott Cherry, High Point; Tim Cluess, Iona; Ed Conroy, Tulane; Keith Dambrot, Akron; Cameron Dollar, Seattle; Scott Drew, Baylor; Matt Driscoll, North Florida; Steve Fisher, San Diego State; Bruiser Flint, Drexel; Mark Fox, Georgia; John Gallagher, Hartford; Matthew Graves, South Alabama; Ray Harper, Western Kentucky; George Ivory, Arkansas-Pine Bluff; Ben Jacobson, Northern Iowa; Rob Jeter, Wisconsin-Milwaukee; ...
Ah, there it is. I'd not noticed the date in your quote. Maybe ESPN simply never updated their list this year.
so, I looked at who's voting for the Mid-Major Top 25...interesting
VOTING PANEL: Casey Alexander (Lipscomb), Roman Banks (Southern), Randy Bennett (St. Mary's), Will Brown (Albany), Jamion Christian (Mount St. Mary's), Jon Coffman (IPFW), Jim Engles (Columbia), James Fox (Appalachian State), Tyler Geving (Portland State), Derrin Hansen (Nebraska-Omaha), Steve Hawkins (Western Michigan), Jason Hooten (Sam Houston State), Brian Jones (North Dakota), James Jones (Yale), Mike Jones (Radford), Robert Jones (Norfolk State), Greg Kampe (Oakland), Danny Kaspar (Texas State), Tod Kowalczyk (Toledo), Greg Lansing (Indiana State), Jim Les (UC Davis), Dan Majerle (Grand Canyon), Gregg Marshall (Wichita State), Bob Marlin (UL-Lafayette), Ritchie McKay (Liberty), Niko Medved (Furman), Rob O'Driscoll (Drexel), Jimmy Patsos (Siena), G.G. Smith (Loyola), Damon Stoudamire (Pacific), Jay Spoonhour (Eastern Illinois).
Yep. He said het put us #1 on the midmajor poll before the Oregon trip.
And that he hadn't voted for us in the national poll, but that (at one time, e.g before he beat us) we were close.
I think on another thread someone mentioned Valpo's poor performance in ESPN's BPI ranking, where we place well above 100. Looking at it a little closer is very interesting, and I thought this would be a good spot to drop what I found.
The BPI is supposed to be a "forward-looking" system designed to predict the outcome of future games - similar to Jeff Sagarin's ratings. However, ESPN also now has a "backwards-looking" system (which they call Strength of Record or SOR) designed solely to quantify how impressive a team's resume is, but not necessarily make a prediction about future performance - basically a more sophisticated RPI, which was not created for prediction but only to better rank past results. These two measures sometimes disagree significantly about a team, and Valpo has one of the widest gaps of any team in Division 1. The BPI places us at 117, while our SOR sits at 42 - 75 places better.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/season/2017/page/2/view/resume (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/season/2017/page/2/view/resume)
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/page/5/view/bpi (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/page/5/view/bpi)
It's basically like ESPN's computers are saying our team is a fraud. Our past results may look great, they say, but don't expect us to live up to them going forward. Of course I, and I assume most people on this board, wouldn't accept that conclusion, but it does seem to be what the computers at ESPN think. It also seems to jive with Ken Pomeroy's ratings where we now sit (at 84th) significantly behind, Alabama (75th), BYU (66th) and Rhode Island (46th) who we of course have beaten, but who all also have worse records than us. The one big difference? All of them have much lower "Luck" ratings than us (we rank as the 12th luckiest team in Pomeroy's system, while those three rank 229th, 270th and 304th). For those not familiar, the "luck" factor for Pomeroy is supposed to capture how much the team is under or over-performing against the computer's predictions. So it seems that Pomeroy's and ESPN's BPI ratings are both seeing something in our statistics that significantly decreases our predictive ranking relative to our actual resume. What that is though, I can't figure out.
Lastly, I'll reiterate that our ESPN Strength of Record rating currently sits at 42, and direct you to this quote from a recent ESPN article about conference strength.
"ESPN's strength of record describes which teams have the most impressive win-loss records. Our analysis shows that if in a typical year, a team is in the top 50 of SOR on Selection Sunday, it deserves to make the NCAA tournament."
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18518019/conference-power-rankings-according-bpi (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18518019/conference-power-rankings-according-bpi)
Quote from: ml2 on January 23, 2017, 04:13:49 PMLastly, I'll reiterate that our ESPN Strength of Record rating currently sits at 42, and direct you to this quote from a recent ESPN article about conference strength.
"ESPN's strength of record describes which teams have the most impressive win-loss records. Our analysis shows that if in a typical year, a team is in the top 50 of SOR on Selection Sunday, it deserves to make the NCAA tournament."
OK, so I just started watching BPI last year and there are significant gaps in my knowledge. Was our 42ish selection Sunday number last year only for predictive purposes or was there an actual or implied SOR ranking? In other words what was its selection Sunday value last year (and was it followed) and how should we value it this year?
Going to their projections they have us at 13.7 HL wins vs 4.3 HL losses and an ending BPI of 35. ???
Quote from: ml2 on January 23, 2017, 04:13:49 PM
I think on another thread someone mentioned Valpo's poor performance in ESPN's BPI ranking, where we place well above 100. Looking at it a little closer is very interesting, and I thought this would be a good spot to drop what I found.
The BPI is supposed to be a "forward-looking" system designed to predict the outcome of future games - similar to Jeff Sagarin's ratings. However, ESPN also now has a "backwards-looking" system (which they call Strength of Record or SOR) designed solely to quantify how impressive a team's resume is, but not necessarily make a prediction about future performance - basically a more sophisticated RPI, which was not created for prediction but only to better rank past results. These two measures sometimes disagree significantly about a team, and Valpo has one of the widest gaps of any team in Division 1. The BPI places us at 117, while our SOR sits at 42 - 75 places better.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/season/2017/page/2/view/resume (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/season/2017/page/2/view/resume)
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/page/5/view/bpi (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/page/5/view/bpi)
It's basically like ESPN's computers are saying our team is a fraud. Our past results may look great, they say, but don't expect us to live up to them going forward. Of course I, and I assume most people on this board, wouldn't accept that conclusion, but it does seem to be what the computers at ESPN think. It also seems to jive with Ken Pomeroy's ratings where we now sit (at 84th) significantly behind, Alabama (75th), BYU (66th) and Rhode Island (46th) who we of course have beaten, but who all also have worse records than us. The one big difference? All of them have much lower "Luck" ratings than us (we rank as the 12th luckiest team in Pomeroy's system, while those three rank 229th, 270th and 304th). For those not familiar, the "luck" factor for Pomeroy is supposed to capture how much the team is under or over-performing against the computer's predictions. So it seems that Pomeroy's and ESPN's BPI ratings are both seeing something in our statistics that significantly decreases our predictive ranking relative to our actual resume. What that is though, I can't figure out.
Lastly, I'll reiterate that our ESPN Strength of Record rating currently sits at 42, and direct you to this quote from a recent ESPN article about conference strength.
"ESPN's strength of record describes which teams have the most impressive win-loss records. Our analysis shows that if in a typical year, a team is in the top 50 of SOR on Selection Sunday, it deserves to make the NCAA tournament."
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18518019/conference-power-rankings-according-bpi (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18518019/conference-power-rankings-according-bpi)
Part of the reason why the luck / predictive rankings are so bad is due to the amount of close wins they've had - Valpo was down at halftime in several of their early season wins. 3 of the 4 losses were blowouts.
Mid Major poll update: Valpo Soars all the way from #13 all the way up to #12 after two huge blow-out wins over above-average HL teams. Oakland, losers of 3 out of 4, are still in the poll at #25. No Mention of Wright State or Northern Kentucky; but GB gets votes after we blow them out of the gym.
Nice to see MoState and Santa Clara getting some votes here.
1. Gonzaga (31) 19-0 775 1 West Coast
2. UNCW 19-2 723 2 Colonial
3. New Mexico State 18-2 679 3 Western Athletic
4. Wichita State 17-4 673 4 Missouri Valley
5. Saint Mary's 17-2 669 5 West Coast
6. Illinois State 16-4 570 6 Missouri Valley
7. Chattanooga 15-4 561 7 Southern
8. Akron 16-3 549 8 Mid-American
9. UT Arlington 14-5 494 9 Sun Belt
10. Monmouth 16-5 464 14 Metro Atlantic
11. Belmont 13-4 407 16 Ohio Valley
12. Valparaiso 16-4 401 13 Horizon
13. Georgia Southern 13-6 344 18 Sun Belt
14. UNC Greensboro 16-5 339 23 Southern
15. ETSU 15-5 258 12 Southern
16. Charleston 16-5 254 15 Colonial
17. Winthrop 15-4 249 25 Big South
18. Vermont 16-5 224 22 America East
19. Ohio 12-5 197 17 Mid-American
20. Arkansas State 13-6 184 21 Sun Belt
21. Florida Gulf Coast 15-6 176 19 Atlantic Sun
22. BYU 15-6 161 NR West Coast
23. North Dakota State 14-6 123 NR Summit
24. Fort Wayne 14-7 99 10 Summit
25. Oakland 15-6 96 11 Horizon
OTHERS RECEIVING VOTES: Sam Houston State 64, Bucknell 62, Princeton 46, UL Lafayette 45, Eastern Michigan 36, Northern Illinois 29, Loyola (CHI) 21, UC Irvine 17, UNC Asheville 14, Grand Canyon 11, Missoouri State 9, Furman 7, Little Rock 7, UMBC 7, Yale 6, New Orleans 5, Northeastern 4, Texas Southern 4, UT Martin 4, Santa Clara 3, Green Bay 2, Canisius 1, NC Central 1, Tennessee State 1.
Had to look up NC-Wilmington... a legit 17-2, losses are to Top 50-Middle Tennessee State and @Clemson; top 100 road wins @St Bonaventure and @Charleston. Worst Wins, #269 Eastern Kentucky, #255 Western Michigan, #252 Delaware, plays #276 James Madison on Thursday.
Belmont, ranked ahead of us, is 0-4 against top-100 teams, Florida, Vandy, Midd Tenn and Rhode Island. They've won the rest of their games, but only two teams have a winning record! #116 JaxState is their best win.
Monmouth, ranked ahead of us, has losses @ North Carolina,@ South Carolina, @ Syracuse. Followed the UNC loss with losses to #199 Rider and #176 St. Peters. Best Wins @77 Memphis and @105 Iona. Worst Wins, #283 SC State, #281 Niagara, #273 Army, #268 Cornell,
Texas-Arlington, ranked ahead of us, has losses @18 Minnesota @88 FGCU and @31 Arkansas... and then had a bad stretch a few weeks ago losing road conference games @272 Texas State and @197 Troy. Worst Win #309 North Texas
Compare those to Valpo's losses @13 Oregon @3 Kentucky, Home #175 Santa Clara, Home #130 Oakland. Best Wins #49 Rhode Island, #89 Alabama, #99 BYU. Worst Wins #342 SUU and #327 Coppin State, #266 Detroit, #261 Chicago State.
We would kill several of the teams ahead of us...
Quote from: ml2 on January 23, 2017, 04:13:49 PM
I think on another thread someone mentioned Valpo's poor performance in ESPN's BPI ranking, where we place well above 100. Looking at it a little closer is very interesting, and I thought this would be a good spot to drop what I found.
The BPI is supposed to be a "forward-looking" system designed to predict the outcome of future games - similar to Jeff Sagarin's ratings. However, ESPN also now has a "backwards-looking" system (which they call Strength of Record or SOR) designed solely to quantify how impressive a team's resume is, but not necessarily make a prediction about future performance - basically a more sophisticated RPI, which was not created for prediction but only to better rank past results. These two measures sometimes disagree significantly about a team, and Valpo has one of the widest gaps of any team in Division 1. The BPI places us at 117, while our SOR sits at 42 - 75 places better.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/season/2017/page/2/view/resume (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/season/2017/page/2/view/resume)
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/page/5/view/bpi (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bpi/_/page/5/view/bpi)
It's basically like ESPN's computers are saying our team is a fraud. Our past results may look great, they say, but don't expect us to live up to them going forward. Of course I, and I assume most people on this board, wouldn't accept that conclusion, but it does seem to be what the computers at ESPN think. It also seems to jive with Ken Pomeroy's ratings where we now sit (at 84th) significantly behind, Alabama (75th), BYU (66th) and Rhode Island (46th) who we of course have beaten, but who all also have worse records than us. The one big difference? All of them have much lower "Luck" ratings than us (we rank as the 12th luckiest team in Pomeroy's system, while those three rank 229th, 270th and 304th). For those not familiar, the "luck" factor for Pomeroy is supposed to capture how much the team is under or over-performing against the computer's predictions. So it seems that Pomeroy's and ESPN's BPI ratings are both seeing something in our statistics that significantly decreases our predictive ranking relative to our actual resume. What that is though, I can't figure out.
Lastly, I'll reiterate that our ESPN Strength of Record rating currently sits at 42, and direct you to this quote from a recent ESPN article about conference strength.
"ESPN's strength of record describes which teams have the most impressive win-loss records. Our analysis shows that if in a typical year, a team is in the top 50 of SOR on Selection Sunday, it deserves to make the NCAA tournament."
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18518019/conference-power-rankings-according-bpi (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18518019/conference-power-rankings-according-bpi)
Very nice summary. Ken Pomeroy had a blog post about the NCAA selection committee's use of "predictive" metrics. http://kenpom.com/blog/that-meeting-at-the-ncaa-hq/#more-1417 (http://kenpom.com/blog/that-meeting-at-the-ncaa-hq/#more-1417)
I recall this being discussed quite a bit when the 2015 Maryland team received a #4 seed (against Valpo) based on a 27-6 record and a 13 RPI. However, Kenpom rated them #33 and ranked #2 in "luck", leading many people to predict they'd be gone early in the tourney. It played out that way as they needed some favorable calls (and non-calls) to get past Valpo before losing to WVU in their next game.
An interesting comparison between that team and this year's Valpo team is the explanation for Pomeroy's "luck" component. Basically, it was believed that Maryland won a majority of "50/50 games" not because of luck, but because they had a player in Melo Trimble who could make huge plays down the stretch and never missed free throws late in games. Very similar to what Peters does for Valpo in close games. So what appears to be luck when looking at numbers (and something that should even out over the season) can actually be something that's predictable and repeatable (a good player making big plays in close games).
As Pomeroy points out, the most important factor in evaluating whether teams "deserve" to be in the NCAA tourney should be based on actual game outcomes, not some prediction of how teams may perform in the tournament. IMO, Kenpom/Sagarin/KPI ratings shouldn't be ignored, but should be used when differentiating between teams with similar resumes.
#10 in this power ranking
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/1/24/14370256/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-week-10-gonzaga-saint-marys-illinois-state-Winthrop
Quote from: valpo84 on January 24, 2017, 01:08:38 PM
#10 in this power ranking
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/1/24/14370256/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-week-10-gonzaga-saint-marys-illinois-state-Winthrop
So here too we hold steady while Oakland continues to drop.
It may be that time of the season where, at least for mid-majors, if you want to move up the ranks it's mostly about teams above you losing. Everybody has the chance for "bad losses" but few mid-majors have the chance for "signature wins" and even putting the smack down on conference foes you're expected to beat may not catch voters' attention.
Now that conference play has started we will not have another opportunity for a top 100 win. We currently have 3? Which is more than most of the teams above us. (Someone pointed that out earlier).
Quote from: bsmith21 on January 24, 2017, 06:29:23 PM
We may have 3 top 100 wins but some of the other teamside have signature wins . We've beaten one tournament bubble team. We don't have anything close to a signature win.
Not Akron, the teamside right ahead of us.
Quote from: a3uge on January 24, 2017, 06:56:34 PM
Quote from: bsmith21 on January 24, 2017, 06:29:23 PM
We may have 3 top 100 wins but some of the other teamside have signature wins . We've beaten one tournament bubble team. We don't have anything close to a signature win.
Not Akron, the teamside right ahead of us.
The Mid American Conference...where does it stand compared to the HL in all these acronyms (rankings)? I've always viewed the MAC as a far superior conference for most sports.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on January 24, 2017, 09:00:15 PM
Quote from: a3uge on January 24, 2017, 06:56:34 PM
Quote from: bsmith21 on January 24, 2017, 06:29:23 PM
We may have 3 top 100 wins but some of the other teamside have signature wins . We've beaten one tournament bubble team. We don't have anything close to a signature win.
Not Akron, the teamside right ahead of us.
The Mid American Conference...where does it stand compared to the HL in all these acronyms (rankings)? I've always viewed the MAC as a far superior conference for most sports.
Their conference has a good RPI (in men's basketball) because they consistently play one of the easiest schedules in D1. Poor SOS by every member benefits RPI. None of their teams ever have decent wins outside of conference, and they don't have teams that are at-large worthy (whereas Valpo, UWGB, and Butler have been there or close).
Quote from: a3uge on January 24, 2017, 09:22:27 PMTheir conference has a good RPI (in men's basketball) because they consistently play one of the easiest schedules in D1. Poor SOS by every member benefits RPI.
The MAC rpi ranking is now 15 with the HL at 18. The HL has 3 top 50 wins vs 0 for the MAC. One of our top 50 wins is YSU over the mighty Akron Zips at rpi #41. It seems like the MAC strategy of weakening OOC schedules to game the system has only shown limited success, and I would think it makes it much more difficult for them to schedule.
I hope WSU, NKU, Oakland, UIC, GB and Valpo can continue with their improvements so the Horizon can get solidly back in front. I don't like trailing them.
The MAC as a far superior conference? Come on, man :). We can routinely beat their schools in men's basketball, volleyball, baseball, softball, and several other sports. They are on par with the HL in most sports.
Quote from: bsmith21 on January 25, 2017, 01:01:51 AM
QuoteNone of their teams ever have decent wins outside of conference, and they don't have teams that are at-large worthy (whereas Valpo, UWGB, and Butler have been there or close).
As best as I can remember Butler is the only team to get an at large bid from the HL, and that was just once.Although since leaving the Horizon League they've gotten at large bids in 3 seasons and probably will again since as of now they have the #3 ranked rpi (good example of why we need a better confrence). Last year was our best team and we didn't get an at large. So I'm not really sure what you're referencing wine you're talking about all these at large worthy teams we've had.
Valpo was at-large worthy to the point where the NCAA is reconsidering the selection committee process. I would lump UWGB in there as well 4 years ago as they had plenty of at large votes. Also, Butler would have been an at-large had they lost the conference tournament in a number of year - so yes, they've had multiple at-large worthy teams. Even dating back to Bruce Pearl's UWM team, they would have probably been an at-large had they lost the conference tournament. The MAC hasn't had anything resembling that because most of their teams play cupcake schedules.
Quote from: bsmith21 on January 25, 2017, 01:01:51 AMAs best as I can remember Butler is the only team to get an at large bid from the HL, and that was just once.
It's been a little while, but at-large bids and at-large quality seeds used to be fairly common.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League_Men%27s_Basketball_Tournament#Post-season_success
Last literal at-large bids were Butler in 2009 and 2007.
Milwaukee had an at-large quality 11 seed in 2006, and while they won the HL tournament in 2003 to get their 12 seed, it matched Butler's at-large 12 seed that season.
In 1998 Detroit (10) and UIC (9) _both_ got at-large bids, while Butler was the upset HL tourney victor and got a 13.
In 1996 Green Bay got an at-large 8.
And then, yeah, back in the 80's the likes of Xavier, Evansville, and Dayton got a bunch of at-large bids and at-large quality seeds.
I don't look back to the 80's as much. But, that track record from say 1996-2006 (and then Butler had at-large quality seeds every season after that until they left the conference) is what I was _hoping_ we were getting into when we joined the Horizon League. Not a conference where we'd go to the NCAA tournament every year. But, a conference where when we did win the conference tournament we could hope for a 13 seed, a 12 seed, or preferably better. And where, for seasons where we were upset as favorites in the conference tournament, we would have good hopes (even an expectation?) of an at-large bid.
Obviously that's not materialized. Of course a good dose of that is on us. We've not had the success in the non-conference to regularly build at-large quality resumees. But the league sure hasn't helped us. Too few are the years where there have been "quality" wins available in conference play. And there are always bad losses available. Part of the trade off has been that we've won the conference (regular season, at least) more often than I'd expected. But, that feels something like a return to the Mid-Con.
RPI as of this morning:
62 62 Vanderbilt 0.5697 9-11 SEC 2 0.6256 222 0.4022 6-6 69 2
63 63 Valparaiso 0.5687 15-4 Horz 148 0.5034 39 0.7647 9-3 53 101
Would love to settle this on the court!
Valpo (61) just leapfrogged Vandy (62).
Quote from: VUSL98 on January 28, 2017, 05:06:19 PMValpo (61) just leapfrogged Vandy (62).
and then the Coppin State (loss to Morgan St 76-74) and Chicago State (loss to Grand Canyon 85-77)
and the RPI at 6:25pm is .5716 with a #64 ranking :(
Interesting watching the 'dores try to give that game back to Iowa State... but they held on this time.
Then, the Bama Win 71-62 over Miss St; Northern Colorado's win over Southern Utah 89-71 and of course the K game 79-73 goes final... and
we drop to #67 .5710
The YSU-CSU game should have no bearing, except that Cleveland State also played Kentucky, who fell from 10 to 11; Bama rose to #68... just behind us.
https://twitter.com/ESPNLunardi/status/824110911505965056
https://twitter.com/ESPNLunardi/status/825776019831394304
https://twitter.com/ESPNLunardi/status/825776343937851392
https://twitter.com/ESPNLunardi/status/825776799657373698
https://twitter.com/ESPNLunardi/status/825777240722010114
https://twitter.com/ESPNLunardi/status/825777540316934150
Wise words
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/825837073089314816
These hypothetical rankings are some what pointless but its nice to see us get some love from the national guys.
https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/825865439272124416
https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/825865540807847936
https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/825865751819071488
Usually encouraging to be put on the same plane as Duke.
After this weekend's performance we're #1!
[tweet]826102122664120323[/tweet]
:thumbsup:
Free throw shooting has been exceptional! That is a relief from year's past when we often struggled at free throws.
The Ken Pom numbers don't include non-d1 games. If you include our full schedule, we're still #2 behind ND.
I think it is interesting that normally a team that is good from 3 is good from the line. We certainly aren't following that trend. Unusual for a team that has the 3P% that we have to be leading the country in FT%.
Quote from: vusupporter on January 30, 2017, 10:49:15 AM
The Ken Pom numbers don't include non-d1 games. If you include our full schedule, we're still #2 behind ND.
I also don't include non-d1 games in my brain. So we're #1.
I sort of like ESPN's Lunardi's bracketlogy this week. 5 seed ND Irish vs 12 seed Valpo. Would be sweet in AP's last year to play the Irish in a,game they can't avoid, get out of, or refuse to schedule. Should be played every year. Natural geographic rivalry.
Bracketology: Florida State falls a line http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology
via @ESPN App http://es.pn/app
Valpo retains #10 spot in this Mid-Major Ranking.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/1/30/14441964/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-week-11-unc-wilmington-gonzaga-vermont (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/1/30/14441964/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-week-11-unc-wilmington-gonzaga-vermont)
QuoteAfter this weekend's performance we're #1!
Anyone else notice the heavy Midwest School representing the free throw % ranking. Midwest basketball for the win!!
Are you saying we midwesterners have Plumped up the numbers?
QuoteAre you saying we midwesterners have Plumped up the numbers?
Midwest Basketball > everyone else
Sometimes it's hard to get old... sometimes I guess you just need to explain obscure references to young'uns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Plump
Set new Butler basketball single game record with 41 points against Evansville on January 11, 1958, including a record 17 of 17 free throws.
Quote from: talksalot on January 30, 2017, 03:49:32 PM
Are you saying we midwesterners have Plumped up the numbers?
I prefer to say we learned the Sweet way to shoot FTs.
Big drop in the mid-major power rankings after the GB loss. We drop 5 spots while ISU only dropped 2 after blow out loss to WSU. URI ahead of us.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/2/6/14526100/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-new-mexico-state-aggies-vermont-catamounts-surge (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/2/6/14526100/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-new-mexico-state-aggies-vermont-catamounts-surge)
I watched Vermont last night. Yes, they won by 20 but that's the most overrated team.
I saw Boise State cracked the top 25 from previously not being ranked. That's where Tom Wilson (official visit to Valpo) chose to play next year.
Quote from: valpo84 on February 07, 2017, 07:44:07 AM
Big drop in the mid-major power rankings after the GB loss. We drop 5 spots while ISU only dropped 2 after blow out loss to WSU. URI ahead of us.
http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/2/6/14526100/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-new-mexico-state-aggies-vermont-catamounts-surge (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/2/6/14526100/mid-major-madness-power-rankings-new-mexico-state-aggies-vermont-catamounts-surge)
We dropped from 11th to 16th in the coaches poll as well.
http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php
President's Day Ranking... all of our losses are to "Ranked" opponents (Two P5 and the other 3)
1. Gonzaga (31) 28-0 775 1 West Coast
2. Wichita State 25-4 735 2 Missouri Valley
3. Illinois State 23-5 687 3 Missouri Valley
4. Monmouth 23-5 656 4 Metro Atlantic
5. Saint Mary's 24-3 646 5 West Coast
6. Vermont 24-5 569 7 America East
7. UNCW 24-5 544 10 Colonial
8. New Mexico State 23-4 543 8 Western Athletic
9. Akron 22-5 485 6 Mid-American
10. Belmont 20-5 483 9 Ohio Valley
11. ETSU 22-6 461 13 Southern
12. UT Arlington 20-6 428 14 Sun Belt
13. Charleston 21-8 401 17 Colonial
14. Valparaiso 22-6 332 11 Horizon
15. Princeton 17-6 312 19 Ivy League
16. Furman 20-9 281 12 Southern
17. Arkansas State 19-9 224 15 Sun Belt
18. Florida Gulf Coast 22-7 216 21 Atlantic Sun
19. UNC Asheville 22-7 213 22 Big South
20. Chattanooga 19-8 203 16 Southern
21. Oakland 21-7 137 25 Horizon
22. Georgia Southern 17-10 115 20 Sun Belt
23. Winthrop 21-6 107 24 Big South
24. UNC Greensboro 20-8 105 NR Southern
25. Bucknell 21-8 92 23 Patriot
OTHERS RECEIVING VOTES: North Carolina Central 49, BYU 43, Ohio 35, CSU Bakersfield 37, North Dakota State 32, Loyola (CHI) 17, Grand Canyon 16, South Dakota 16, Iona 11, Georgia State 10, San Francisco 10, Texas Southern 10, Lipscomb 7, Ball State 6, Harvard 5,Santa Clara 5, Green Bay 4, UC Irvine 4, New Orleans 3, Towson 2, North Dakota 1, Stony Brook 1, Wright State 1.
Whats disappointing on this ranking is several teams ahead of us with similar or worse records.
We also have better quality wins than a lot of teams with similar records that are ahead of us. It must the type of loses that bring us down as opposed to the quality wins bringing us up.
I'm sure Oakland isn't happy being behind us....similar records and they beat us (sigh) twice.
Quote from: M on February 21, 2017, 01:26:36 PMI'm sure Oakland isn't happy being behind us....similar records and they beat us (sigh) twice.
good point. I don't know if I can say they are bad losses since they dominated us in both games. Certainly bad losses when you are looking at rpi.