Enough is enough.
Set the tone that this is not acceptable nor what Valpo Basketball is about.
You can see it on Lottich's face he's lost and frustrated. Whatever his plan is it's been broke for years.
Look at our assistant coaches on the bench, other than Walker and Thomas K, they look like they are at a funeral.
Lottich has destroyed Valpo bb. He should be fired immediately. Name Gore interim and begin a search for a new head coach immediately. Can't afford it? Figure it out or get out.
They won't fire Lottich because look at how Gore, Bowen, and Townsend are looking like puppets waiting for the strings to be pulled. Gore would be MORE OF THE SAME...might as well ride it out for 8 more weeks. The team quit on themselves.
The doormat of the MVC..
Should've been fired years ago. Now we've become a complete joke and fallen into a dark abyss. The administration is to blame too for allowing this to continue so long
I'm guessing that Valpo and Evansville are considered the 2 biggest mistakes the MVC has ever made. It would be interesting to know what longtime MVC fans from other programs would have to say about that.
Should have been fired years ago. Saw this coming.
However Lottich probably just needs to ride this lame duck season out. They're isn't an interim on the bench.
Also we don't know the contract. There might be a clause that the buyout is tremendously cheaper if he finishes the year.
The men and women basketball teams are now a combined 0-10 in conference play. This is not a one-time aberration. Unfortunately, it is the continuation of a steady downfall, and there is no inkling of things moving in a better direction. Recent post-game conferences and interviews with the head coaches in both sports only support this conclusion. Neither individual instills a sense of confidence or offers fans any real reason for hope of improvement. The new AD should be planning for a clean sweep of the two programs, exploring possibilities of alternative personnel, and be ready to declare a dramatic fresh start under his leadership immediately at the end of the seasons. The administration's relative apathy toward sports development at Valparaiso (more noticeable to outside observers after the move to the MVC), as well as misplaced priorities (such as focusing time, energy, and resources on a name/mascot change that actually divided or diminished the fan base), exhibited during the past half dozen years has finally led to this low point, which a number of folks on this board had been predicting would be the result.
While I don't bother watching these games as much, I don't think Valpo will fire during the season. Most college hoops coaches get fired just after season.
When I look at stats, one of the sites I go to is T-Rank by barttorvik. He gives a score for each game.
https://barttorvik.com/team.php?team=Valparaiso&year=2023
Our game scores since Alec Peters was injured have been less than stellar. Don't look up Grand Canyon, you'll wish for a previous era. I only wish we could see Indiana Wesleyan basketball, to get an idea of how Tonagel and team have performed.
We sorely need someone that can coach, develop, adjust, recruit, and get the most out of the team.
If this were European soccer, we'd be getting ready for the Summit League, with Oral Roberts ready to take our place. Maybe we should get Tom Smith to consult
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No need to beat a dead horse. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the University does not have budget to swallow Lottich contract.
These players all will land elsewhere. They had multiple scholarships out of Hs and will land on D2s or small majors. Valpo will need to address several things before it considers getting competitive in athletics again.
Thank you for bringing up the post game conference remarks. I was curious to know if others had the same expressed sentiments. Go back and watch the ISU press conference: "We knew coming in they were a really good team." Later on, "...obviously games like that can be a little embarrassing." Oh, and - as has been the case for years, the excuses continued: "...I thought we were exhausted ... we looked tired
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVQj7e6TxnA
UNI post-game remarks. "...We spotted them 12 points to start the game ... I don't know ... we've gotta come out better and not get down like that." Later on, "...I thought that there were some big improvements today obviously, we still didn't make shots, but I thought we got good shots." He later compared the fact that UNI had 3 days to prepare for Valpo, whereas Valpo only had 2 days to prepare for them ...
Last, he again pointed out that "...the valley schedule does make it difficult you just don't get a lot of practice time." I'm sorry, but enough of the constant excuses!!! It's been going on for years and years. It sure sounds like he's just out of his league - some pun intended. Is the objective seriously to get out of the MVC and go back into a lesser mid-major conference as a means of appeasing this woe-is-me sentiment? If so, count me out.
I am (and have been) 100% in favor of Tonagel coming back to Valpo *if* he'd entertain the offer after not being given a fair shake at the gig years back (from what I was told, at least). I don't question Matt as a father or husband - that's not my business. I don't know him from Adam. As a fan, I question him as the basketball coach at Valparaiso University. As a basketball coach, I do not see evidence of him moving this program in a better direction. It's just not qualitatively or quantitatively true. It's time to move on.
Waiting until the season comes to a close is fine by me - this season is a wash. But I hope to see change occur ASAP once the season comes close. And I sure hope it's not a matter of hiring from within again. Second, I certainly hope the new President & AD seize the moment and show their commitment to athletics. It does not have to be a matter of academics OR athletics. At one point, I was a big-time advocate for a new arena, etc. - I do not mention such things any longer. As-is, donors do not have a reason to support such a move. We need to change on the court first.
It does appear to be that time.
I doubt Tonegal is the solution, but I undoubted feel Matt would be relieved if the departure occurred. This program is going nowhere, and the cast of characters in the decision process need change.
Quote from: wh on January 07, 2023, 03:47:29 PM
I'm guessing that Valpo and Evansville are considered the 2 biggest mistakes the MVC has ever made. It would be interesting to know what longtime MVC fans from other programs would have to say about that.
Maybe a stretch here, but not too far off. Evansville ssw what was happening and cleaned house. Illinois State had finished worse than Valpo for the last three years and guess what? They fired their coach. Indiana State has consistently been better than Valpo but, nonetheless, fired their coach and two years in to a new coach, now sit in first place in the Valley. Athletics are a mess at Valpo, sans, the Soccer team and Volleyball team. When spring comes and softball and baseball continue failing, it will just further point to the giant mess. Dr. Small needs our support and, prayers!
Here is the thing
We have facilities worse than most high schools
No marketing department
What do you expect this staff to do?
If the school and alums would actually put some cash into the program maybe we would have better results.
If a player comes here and does above average he will leave-why would you stay at a place with terrible facilities and game environment
And stop bringing up Rowdy Peters etc
They played in leagues that were awful
Quote from: beacons23 on January 08, 2023, 11:20:16 AMAnd stop bringing up Rowdy Peters etc
They played in leagues that were awful
Nope. Not gonna.
Those teams consistently beat MVC teams, were respected enough to get a MVC bid, went to the dance or NIT a number of times and then did not embarrass the university and showed they were nationally competitive. They produced professional players. How many pros has Lottich produced? Those teams would destroy the last several Lottich-coached teams in 8 of 10 games.
Beacons23 is on to something. Valpo is a bad product right now. For athletes - facilities not competitive at D1 level . In terms of marketing exposure etc - not competitive.
According to scholarship.com Valpo has a 65% 4 year graduation rate. That is really bad for its facilities and price tag.
Rowdy and Peters were NBA players and would have played at any school in the country their senior years. Bringing one of them back to the program would not do anything if aforementioned problems are not fixed.
It's time for a reality check.
I like both viewpoints from 23 and 62. Our facilities and game atmosphere absolutely suck in todays D1 basketball. Also, those teams with Peters, Broekoff and others that played in the Horizon would destroy this team.
Lottich may not be dismissed until the end of the season, but it's the wrong, weak, Valpolike decision to make.
Thanks to our former President and AD we are in a hole I am not sure we can get out of.
My younger sister is on the Track team and suggests that students just have no desire to go to games with morgue like atmosphere and a bad product.
When even vu72 uses the words "mess" and "failing" to describe Valpo Athletics, there probably is a great challenge ahead. Let the current staff ride out the season while putting feelers out now, then move quickly after the season ends to clean house. Would we want someone who wants to come here right now? What does that say about their character that they would bail on their season somewhere else? That type of person would not be a good fit long-term for Valpo. The quality and quantity of applicants will grow substantially once the middle of March comes. To put somebody in charge now from in house defeats the purpose of what most everyone here is saying - that a 100% reset from outside needs to occur. And finally, no matter how hard you want to be in the big time, we do not have the money. We just sold a parcel on Old Campus for some desperately needed cash. We don't have the money to pay more than one person to do one job.
Quote from: beacons23 on January 08, 2023, 11:20:16 AM
Here is the thing
We have facilities worse than most high schools
No marketing department
What do you expect this staff to do?
If the school and alums would actually put some cash into the program maybe we would have better results.
If a player comes here and does above average he will leave-why would you stay at a place with terrible facilities and game environment
And stop bringing up Rowdy Peters etc
They played in leagues that were awful
Definitely a statement from an ignorant/unaware individual. You are saying that NBA/top European league players, couldn't cut it in the MVC? When they were playing, the Horizon League was at the same conference RPI level that the MVC now sits. We were routinely in the 12-16 range, but the MVC during those years was closer to 7-10. We would beat MVC teams, which were better than the current MVC teams. Peters put up 30+ during his FR year at Evansville, which was a better team than they have been the last few years. Rowdy played in a league that had back-to-back National Championship appearances by Butler. Hell, even our Mid-Con teams were in the same situation, in often beating the same quality of teams that we have struggled to beat in the last few years. I will give you a pass here, in probably being a recent graduate, and not knowing the history.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 08, 2023, 08:08:15 AM
I doubt Tonegal is the solution, but I undoubted feel Matt would be relieved if the departure occurred. This program is going nowhere, and the cast of characters in the decision process need change.
He might not be but he also might be. Think about it. We brought in a guy named Homer Drew from a D2 or some such level and that worked out. Greg has won 3 National NAIA Championships and was named National coach of the Year also three times. He has a 79.5% winning record. Check out the D2 record of Indiana States coach. They currently sit in first place. It doesn't have to be a Big name D1 coach. Greg is about 40 years old so still can easily relate to his players and fits the mold of the kind of people we want at Valpo.
Quote from: valpotx on January 08, 2023, 02:37:08 PM
Quote from: beacons23 on January 08, 2023, 11:20:16 AM
Here is the thing
We have facilities worse than most high schools
No marketing department
What do you expect this staff to do?
If the school and alums would actually put some cash into the program maybe we would have better results.
If a player comes here and does above average he will leave-why would you stay at a place with terrible facilities and game environment
And stop bringing up Rowdy Peters etc
They played in leagues that were awful
Definitely a statement from an ignorant/unaware individual. You are saying that NBA/top European league players, couldn't cut it in the MVC? When they were playing, the Horizon League was at the same conference RPI level that the MVC now sits. We were routinely in the 12-16 range, but the MVC during those years was closer to 7-10. We would beat MVC teams, which were better than the current MVC teams. Peters put up 30+ during his FR year at Evansville, which was a better team than they have been the last few years. Rowdy played in a league that had back-to-back National Championship appearances by Butler. Hell, even our Mid-Con teams were in the same situation, in often beating the same quality of teams that we have struggled to beat in the last few years. I will give you a pass here, in probably being a recent graduate, and not knowing the history.
You know how someone is from Texas?
Stick around thhey will let you know...
First big mouth...never said they could not play in this league
Just stating that dudes like you are re living the glory days that are gone and not coming back
Quote from: beacons23 on January 08, 2023, 03:32:24 PMYou know how someone is from Texas?
Stick around thhey will let you know...
First big mouth...never said they could not play in this league
Just stating that dudes like you are re living the glory days that are gone and not coming back
That's what the said when Homer Drew went 4-24, 5-22 and 5-22 three year in a row, just before you were born! It is just nonsense to say stuff like
the glory days that are gone and not coming back
Now, now. Let's not get touchy or personal.
However, the reason Rowdy and Peters are brought up is not to relive the past but to underscore the quality and competitive standard that has been lost over the past several years. Everyone wants to get back to that standard of excellence with a new coach and a solid, stable, competitive program like we use to have. That's not reliving the past.
I honestly was hoping both came back to play. Did a shake and bake talledega nights type deal where Alec got credit all the time.
Then we'd all go over to theta and hail crusaders. If anyone was injured we'd just go to the hospital by the football field.
How's that for your glory days! BRB getting my letter jacket
I actually believe that it is possible to turn Valpo's program around quickly (quickly = two to three years). They are higher teams from higher tier conferences, but look at the turnarounds at Kansas State an Iowa State. However, it will require the right coach who has an effective system, can find the right players for that system, and generates tremendous enthusiasm. Obviously, Matt is not that coach and the right coach will not be there until after this season. It is just a matter of hiring the right coach.
As I have stated previously, money from the New Mexico State game is likely to fund a lot of this transition.
Quote from: vu84v2 on January 08, 2023, 04:55:47 PM
I actually believe that it is possible to turn Valpo's program around quickly (quickly = two to three years). As I have stated previously, money from the New Mexico State game is likely to fund a lot of this transition.
As I believe it should be, despite being a former FB guy. A rising tide floats all boats.
Remembering those great years of Tom Smith and the stall offense at the Hilltop.
I have a gut feeling change is coming at the top. I'm finally seeing people who work for the University being to public acknowledge how bad Lottich has been as a head coach, which makes me think the tides are turning.
I know people who have worked for the university (outside the Athletics Department) be extremely cautious about showing any public criticism of Lottich (even so much as liking a tweet) that could be perceived as a slight to Lottich. This year the Team is so bad and the prospects for the future under Lottich's leadership are so gloomy, I've seen employees of the University show their lack of support for him.
Make the change this offseason. He isn't qualified to be the head coach anymore. It's time for change.
Let him ride it out and relieve him after the final loss. Better days ahead. At least that's what I keep repeating to myself.
Perhaps ... in some fashion, the situation could be chalked up to the ol' chicken or egg aversion. However, one thing we *do* know is that the new President & Director of Athletics are not (unlike their predecessors) responsible for the hiring of Matt. Nor are they responsible for the lack of commitment to the athletics programming. This is their time to act.
Consider Dr. Small's bio:
1. Small serves as the sport administrator for men's basketball and men's and women's track & field and cross country.
[/size]2. [/size]Through his total commitment to the student-athlete experience — an experience he enjoyed firsthand as a Division I men's basketball player at the University of Pittsburgh ...
[/size]3. Small served at power five institutions with proven marquee athletic programs in the Big 12 & SEC, respectively (Iowa State & Arkansas).
[/size]
[/size]There's NO way this guy does not see what we - as mere spectators - see ... I believe in him.
Cleaning it up:
QuoteQuote from: Dr. T on January 08, 2023, 09:47:37 PMPerhaps ... in some fashion, the situation could be chalked up to the ol' chicken or egg aversion. However, one thing we *do* know is that the new President & Director of Athletics are not (unlike their predecessors) responsible for the hiring of Matt. Nor are they responsible for the lack of commitment to the athletics programming. This is their time to act. Consider Dr. Small's bio: 1. Small serves as the sport administrator for men's basketball and men's and women's track & field and cross country. 2. Through his total commitment to the student-athlete experience — an experience he enjoyed firsthand as a Division I men's basketball player at the University of Pittsburgh ... 3. Small served at power five institutions with proven marquee athletic programs in the Big 12 & SEC, respectively (Iowa State & Arkansas).
There's NO way this guy does not see what we - as mere spectators - see ... I believe in him.
Quote from: beacons23 on January 08, 2023, 03:32:24 PM
Quote from: valpotx on January 08, 2023, 02:37:08 PM
Quote from: beacons23 on January 08, 2023, 11:20:16 AM
Here is the thing
We have facilities worse than most high schools
No marketing department
What do you expect this staff to do?
If the school and alums would actually put some cash into the program maybe we would have better results.
If a player comes here and does above average he will leave-why would you stay at a place with terrible facilities and game environment
And stop bringing up Rowdy Peters etc
They played in leagues that were awful
Definitely a statement from an ignorant/unaware individual. You are saying that NBA/top European league players, couldn't cut it in the MVC? When they were playing, the Horizon League was at the same conference RPI level that the MVC now sits. We were routinely in the 12-16 range, but the MVC during those years was closer to 7-10. We would beat MVC teams, which were better than the current MVC teams. Peters put up 30+ during his FR year at Evansville, which was a better team than they have been the last few years. Rowdy played in a league that had back-to-back National Championship appearances by Butler. Hell, even our Mid-Con teams were in the same situation, in often beating the same quality of teams that we have struggled to beat in the last few years. I will give you a pass here, in probably being a recent graduate, and not knowing the history.
You know how someone is from Texas?
Stick around thhey will let you know...
First big mouth...never said they could not play in this league
Just stating that dudes like you are re living the glory days that are gone and not coming back
You mean like how most other people here have their state in their account profile? Weird, I didn't say anything about Texas, but yes, go TCU (my grad school)!
Instead of being defensive, you should realize that no one here is 'reliving the glory days' on the forum. Personally, I get to do that every Friday night in my old man/adult baseball league, and I have no need to hold on to our Basketball past, other than the fond memories of winning and being relevant. We are focused on the quality that Valpo had established in our primary sport, where we rarely had a losing season over a 25 year period. Pretending that teams are better and more competitive nowadays is a common fallacy, and one that I also believed when I was your age, in looking back at the quality of play for folks in the 70s, 80s, and early/mid-90s. However, having observed all of these sports since my Valpo graduation in 2004, you realize that the competitive level remains about the same. In my old man baseball example, I, as a 41 year old now, can still hit the guys coming directly out of college at 22-24 years old. They also view anyone that came before them as not as athletic or talented, but will eventually come to the same realization that I did, over time.
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 08, 2023, 04:07:57 PM
Now, now. Let's not get touchy or personal.
However, the reason Rowdy and Peters are brought up is not to relive the past but to underscore the quality and competitive standard that has been lost over the past several years. Everyone wants to get back to that standard of excellence with a new coach and a solid, stable, competitive program like we use to have. That's not reliving the past.
The HL avg. conf. RPI during Ryan Broekhoff's 4 years was 12th.
'09-10 10th Butler
'10-11 12th Butler
'11-12 13th CSU
'12-13 12th Valpo (26-8) (14-4)
Valpo RPI 81, 175, 100 ,59
Apples to apples:
Avg. HL RPI in Broekhoff years: 12th
Avg. MVC RPI past 4 seasons: 13thHopefully, we can put to rest this notion that Valpo is playing in a much harder league than in Ryan Broekhoff's "glory days." Those teams would have destroyed this year's collection of mediocre D-1 players 10 out of 10 times. Krikke and King would have been 4th and 5th options on those teams. I can't picture anyone else getting meaningful minutes.
Good comments. Be aware that the MVC is weaker more diluted conference than it was 10-15 years ago, as is the Horizon conference.
wh - I agree with your general premise, but will add that the bottom half of the MVC (for most years) is far better than the Horizon League was. Far fewer easy wins in the MVC (though Valpo has no easy wins right now).
Please...the Horizon League is not comparable to the MVC in fact not even close. The HL may have a decent team or 2 now and then but they in no way can compete with the top half or so of the MVC on a year in year out basis. I thought I read earlier on this blog that this year the HL was ranked 28th or so while the MVC was 12th or around there.
Quote from: valpo64 on January 09, 2023, 09:02:25 AM
Please...the Horizon League is not comparable to the MVC in fact not even close. The HL may have a decent team or 2 now and then but they in no way can compete with the top half or so of the MVC on a year in year out basis. I thought I read earlier on this blog that this year the HL was ranked 28th or so while the MVC was 12th or around there.
I'm not sure you're responding to my post, but if so, you may have missed my point. Unquestionably, the MVC and HL are worlds apart in today's college basketball world. I was responding to the notion that the Ryan Broekhoff teams wouldn't perform nearly as well against today's MVC as they did against HL competition back in the day when the HL and MVC were within 2 or 3 places of each other in conference RPI. Such a claim is simply not supported by the facts. I'm also not suggesting that Valpo return to the HL, albeit talent wise they would be a much better fit (presently).
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 08, 2023, 05:40:19 PM
Remembering those great years of Tom Smith and the stall offense at the Hilltop.
Hey, a few of us here precede even the Smith years. 🤪 Ken Rochlitz was the head coach during the late 70s, when VU had just made its move to DI. Coach Rochlitz did what he could with what he had, and I recall a group of scrappy players who made the most of their DI opportunities. The W-L records, though, were predictable.
I assure folks that I'm not merely wallowing in personal nostalgia, though that comes easily for me! This year's non-conference schedule really did remind me of those days, when VU couldn't, or didn't want to, create a tougher slate. (The biggest exception during my time was a
Hilltop game against #1 DePaul!)
We talk about a lot of things that might turn off a potential quality recruit (coach or player), and this year's non-conference schedule may well be one of them.
I thought Rochlitz was a decent person. Smith on the other hand...well. if the budget is low you have a right to be crabby.
Welcome back, WH.
Don't fire a coach mid-season. That just hurts your ability to recruit the next head coach and future assistants. Fire him after the season. Also be fair to the players. It's difficult on student athletes to lose the coaches that recruited you mid-season.
Quote from: VU2014 on January 09, 2023, 05:53:38 PM
Don't fire a coach mid-season. That just hurts your ability to recruit the next head coach and future assistants. Fire him after the season. Also be fair to the players. It's difficult on student athletes to lose the coaches that recruited you mid-season.
Above all be fair to the players. But if our kids want a midseason change, listen to them.
Disagree. If you absolutely know a change is required, be transparent and do it now and designate an interim coach. Let people know that Valpo is making a change.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 09, 2023, 06:40:26 PM
Disagree. If you absolutely know a change is required, be transparent and do it now and designate an interim coach. Let people know that Valpo is making a change.
USC, I disagree with your disagree. We owe our kids some consideration. If they have lost faith in Matt, then by all means make an immediate change whether or not it impacts the final record. However, if they want to finish their college basketball careers under the coach who brought them to Valpo, then do the right thing by them and allow them to finish the season together. Either way Valpo moves on in 2023. Yeah, D-I BB is a business, but at Valpo's level there is still room for compassion for the students who wind up caught up in the politics. At least give them a voice.
Ok , as long as they move on and as long as a 2-3 game winning streak for Valpo has no impact...
I agree that Matt should be gone by March but maybe sooner, who knows. I just feel for the kids players.
I would really like to hear Paul's thoughts on if he thinks Matt has a legit shot at being fired. If money wasn't an object, 100% move on in the offseason.
But everyone knows the university isn't flush with $ right now. If there is no opt out clause, I question if the University has the stomach to Lottich to go away.
Honestly, if they can't afford to pay Lottich's buyout and afford a new Coach, I'd approach Coach Gore about taking the HC role in a temporary capicity and giving him a shot. Not the ideal scenario, but it would get the head coach out who isn't up to the job. Trust I know the reactions to this suggestion won't be popular and it wouldn't be my preferred scenario either, but it's outside the box thinking. If a Lottich divorce is in the works, I hope Athletics Department keeps Coach Gore on staff. He means a lot to the program beyond just being a coach on staff. He's a very good big man Coach (proven, Krikke has developed and many other past bigs) and he's a connection to Valpo Basketball alums and the past.
I am perplexed 2014. I like your strategy; however, I think it is important that Valpo has an open perspective in hiring a new coach and not restrict themselves to Valpo "family" connections.
62 - I get where you are coming from, but many times players do not know what's best.
It's more important for Valpos next coach to be adept at fundraising and alumni networking.
If the University does not fire Lottich because the 345k of remaining salary, there are dark times ahead
Valpo needs as many grads with great experiences at Valpo as possible right now. Recent grads are not donating due to the following :
1. A rebrand, don't let the inmates run the asylum
2. Dropping sports teams with generations of alumni
3. High transfer rate, small retention from bachelor to grad
4. Money not being used towards Athletic's
5. Subpar athletic performance
6. Dropping of majors and enrollment.
7. Large student debt
Unless these problems are looked at from a macro level, doesn't matter who we bring in/recruit. They will be living in dorms for 4 years and playing in empty gyms....if they stay
Wow! This is the longest string of posts I can remember! The board had gotten so sleepy that a next game post was started just before tip off! I was joking with a few friends about fan disappointment with Matt's coaching saying..."The fans aren't yet ready to head toward Matt's house with torches and pitch forks but they are out in the garage rummaging around trying to locate their pitch forks!" I now sense a run on torch fuel at Home Depot.
valpofb16: The most important capability for a new coach will be to generate a system in which Valpo wins...which in turn will generate enthusiasm with students, alumni, etc. Sure, I would like the coach to be adept at fundraising and alumni networking, but that is secondary to putting a quality team on the court.
While I agree with some of your seven points (e.g., 1), I ask the following questions:
-What majors were dropped that had demand and/or a large alumni base? It does not make sense to keep fields that few want to study - especially when you need to invest to add majors that have high demand. Heck, Valpo had Home Economics in its own building when I attended...but a number of years later it made no sense to continue the major.
-Valpo's first-year retention rate is 80% (college factual). While I agree that needs to be improved, is that indicative of dismal performance? I think we can agree that Valpo needs to delve into why that is happening and make adjustments.
-Point 4: What funding should be redirected towards athletics?
Quote from: vu72 on January 10, 2023, 08:02:51 AMthey are out in the garage rummaging around trying to locate their pitch forks!
My quick trip to the garage reveals that I still have one 3 tine, one 4 tine and even an old 5 tine model. Should I bring all of them?
I am curious - right now, how much money would Valpo eat if they dismissed Lottich?
A partial season?
2 years?
Vu84 very thoughtful resources. Imo just winning at Valpo is all a piece of it. Chicken or the egg. These student athletes need a competitive division 1 environment. Valpo does not have the student body nor community support to pack the ARC, unless many of aforementioned problems are fixed. The student body is in half from 10 years ago, more so if you include grad school.
1. Majors dropped - I agree if no one is attending for a certain Major that's a fair argument, however if you are a proud Econ Major (hypothetical) and the university drops Econ, is that another barrier for donations?
2. First year retention rate at 80% is abysmal for a private institution like Valparaiso. So is a 93% acceptance rate. So is a 70% 4 year grad rate. We agree there are major problems that need fixed.
3. Funding should be directed in full on sales/self preservation mode. Whatever sells the University to and retains future students.
Until these issues are fixed. You will have an impossible job of sustainably winning at Valpo in any sport. You are offering a subpar product. If there are no funds to provide and improve product, it's time to start cutting operating costs.
Let's remember that the basketball program exists as a result of the School's existence...not the other way around. Don't forget priorities.
The school hired a new VP of enrollment, a VU grad from 2004 coming from Loyola. She said she took the job due to the challenge.
Well, she's got a big challenge.
64 - also be aware that the basketball program has provided national recognition to Valparaiso University for which the university has taken for granted. With that statement, we might as well move to D3.
Quote from: valpo64 on January 10, 2023, 09:46:01 AM
Let's remember that the basketball program exists as a result of the School's existence...not the other way around. Don't forget priorities.
Another variation of "you didn't build that."
There is an interesting comparison here associated with the "great person theory of executive leadership" (i.e., if we get the right leader, that alone creates a strong likelihood of change leading to success). Assuming Valpo brings in a new basketball coach (which they need to do), the great person theory fits since the coach has enormous latitude to bring in the right assistant coaches, implement an effective system, find and develop the right players for that system, etc. For the new VP of admissions, she has far less latitude - she needs to gain the buy-in and active engagement from most or all of the faculty, since they need to be very active in the process of selling prospective and current students on the value of the university. Her ability to do that - not an easy task - is going to make or break her performance in the role.
I'm in no way dismissing the importance of athletics in being part of the experience of being at a university and of being an alum. But I'm going to respectfully suggest again that folks may have an inflated view of the role of intercollegiate athletics in the life of this particular university.
Hey, VU was doing fine before Bryce Drew hit The Shot. Although some of us have debated the merits of the US News rankings in other threads here, bottom line is that when US News began ranking all colleges and universities in the late 80s, VU debuted as one of the top-ranked regional universities in the Midwest. At the new ARC, Tom Smith was about to give way to Homer Drew, but the W-L records wouldn't change for years.
Personally, I would prefer that VU commit to a MBB program rebuild and support athletics as part of a well-rounded college experience. But those decisions are unlikely to dictate the University's fate. Indeed, it's possible to thrive after downsizing a sports program. To illustrate, by the time I arrived at NYU's law school in 1982, the University had previously eliminated its DI basketball and football programs, despite much success earlier in the century. Thanks to very strong leadership (including its new President, John Brademas, formerly a leading Member of Congress from Indiana), it raised gobs of money and entered into a truly golden era of its history that largely continues. In terms of sports, it started up a D3 men's varsity BB program in the mid-80s but never reinstated football.
So...I think it's important to keep this all in perspective. There's a strong case to be made for building a successful DI sports program -- across the board -- at VU. But I think it has to be a positive case for what it brings to the University, rather than sounding speculative alarms about what will happen if such a commitment is not forthcoming.
Note, I edited my comment to remove the inclusion of valpofb16's last post to this discussion. My response was more generally directed.
Quote from: David81 on January 10, 2023, 02:42:35 PM
Quote from: valpofb16 on January 10, 2023, 07:16:33 AM
I'm in no way dismissing the importance of athletics in being part of the experience of being at a university and of being an alum. But I'm going to respectfully suggest again that folks may have an inflated view of the role of intercollegiate athletics in the life of this particular university.
Hey, VU was doing fine before Bryce Drew hit The Shot. Although some of us have debated the merits of the US News rankings in other threads here, bottom line is that when US News began ranking all colleges and universities in the late 80s, VU debuted as one of the top-ranked regional universities in the Midwest. At the new ARC, Tom Smith was about to give way to Homer Drew, but the W-L records wouldn't change for years.
Personally, I would prefer that VU commit to a MBB program rebuild and support athletics as part of a well-rounded college experience. But those decisions are unlikely to dictate the University's fate. Indeed, it's possible to thrive after downsizing a sports program. To illustrate, by the time I arrived at NYU's law school in 1982, the University had previously eliminated its DI basketball and football programs, despite much success earlier in the century. Thanks to very strong leadership (including its new President, John Brademas, formerly a leading Member of Congress from Indiana), it raised gobs of money and entered into a truly golden era of its history that largely continues. In terms of sports, it started up a D3 men's varsity BB program in the mid-80s but never reinstated football.
So...I think it's important to keep this all in perspective. There's a strong case to be made for building a successful DI sports program -- across the board -- at VU. But I think it has to be a positive case for what it brings to the University, rather than sounding speculative alarms about what will happen if such a commitment is not forthcoming.
I'm not sure that NYU is a great comparison to Valparaiso. I know very little about it, but Valparaiso and Manhattan are two very different settings, and that's not to mention the massive differences in the landscape of college athletics from the 1980s to today.
I don't have statistics to back this up but I seem to recall some pointing vastly improved numbers of applications tied to successful runs in basketball. I just looked at attendance over the last several years and found out that our two flagship sports are being out drawn by our other ticketed sports. For example, Volleyball last year drew 718 per match. They have not been below 464 in the last five years. Women's basketball is drawing 272 per game this season and has been in a steady decline from 438 per game four years ago.
Football drew 2147 per game this past season and has been pretty steady with a maximum of 2377 in 2017. Men's basketball is drawing a whopping 1317 through 8 games this season down from 1758 last year and over 3000 in two of the previous three years. That's a free fall.
Football has put a fun and somewhat successful product on the field, with steady improvement. Volleyball is the same, just even more successful. Attendance then, given my in-depth analysis, seems tied to one thing--winning.
Definitely want the school to sustainably find its level before fixing the men's basketball program.
I think there are ways to do so falling on deaf ears. The 2000+ at football games is a great sign!
Still think that is a sleeping giant for the University , just look down the road in Crawfordsville....
If athletics wants to put down on any sport it should be football. 420k to play New Mexico State. Most alums, fans, relatives , and low costs (in terms of home games). Plus all kids are paying tuition.
I get the basketball numbers that will be thrown around. But it's a lot of hubub for 1-3 , four year seniors every year.
University needs butts in seats
Well said 16. At this point in time, VU basketball (direct expense and income) probably takes a pretty big loss. Indirect P/L would also be a loss if the players are occupying dorm room you could sell or class seats you could sell. I doubt that amounts to much in this enrollment climate at VU. Harder to quantify is the "buzz" and the presence of your name on the ESPN crawl line. If you aren't generating the "buzz" on campus or on TV, that drives recruitment upward, then competing in D-1 is less of a slam dunk.
Posters on this board know how often we have kicked around the revenue effect of football on VU. I think someone even posted detailed costs and revenue figures once. Football always proves itself in how much net tuition revenue comes to the school from 60-80 male students who simply want to play the game without an athletic scholarship. Off the top of my head I don't know the male-female ratio in colleges nationwide but I am pretty sure it is over 55% female. (I attended in the wrong decade!) So even though football generates little direct revenue and takes a direct net loss, it drives a lot of indirect revenue from enrollment.
I could kiss you crusadermoe. Finally someone gets it!
I give up. Let's go D3 in all sports, enjoy the dog mascots and call it a day.
I am not saying that basketball can't high indirect gains. But it better attract students to apply and to an admissions office that can close the deal. I am convinced the impact of basketball is genuine, but it is harder to follow the money and causal links. It's go big or go home.
Football investment from donors or business is a lower risk-reward calculation and a safer bet. Ideally you have donors or a big local business sponsor that makes both sports thrive! As the investor donor or business, do you buy Tesla stock or buy Procter and Gamble? Or do you have the money to buy both?
Fellow SC Trojan... is today's CLR's vote of confidence for DC Grinch a foreshadowing of another Lottich year ? I certainly hope not.
Fight on - SC will have less patience for Grinch compared to Valpo with Lottich in his 7th year!
Don't get me started on Grinch.
Quote from: AlaskaCrusader19 on January 10, 2023, 02:51:58 PM
Quote from: David81 on January 10, 2023, 02:42:35 PM
Quote from: valpofb16 on January 10, 2023, 07:16:33 AM
Personally, I would prefer that VU commit to a MBB program rebuild and support athletics as part of a well-rounded college experience. But those decisions are unlikely to dictate the University's fate. Indeed, it's possible to thrive after downsizing a sports program. To illustrate, by the time I arrived at NYU's law school in 1982, the University had previously eliminated its DI basketball and football programs, despite much success earlier in the century. Thanks to very strong leadership (including its new President, John Brademas, formerly a leading Member of Congress from Indiana), it raised gobs of money and entered into a truly golden era of its history that largely continues. In terms of sports, it started up a D3 men's varsity BB program in the mid-80s but never reinstated football.
So...I think it's important to keep this all in perspective. There's a strong case to be made for building a successful DI sports program -- across the board -- at VU. But I think it has to be a positive case for what it brings to the University, rather than sounding speculative alarms about what will happen if such a commitment is not forthcoming.
I'm not sure that NYU is a great comparison to Valparaiso. I know very little about it, but Valparaiso and Manhattan are two very different settings, and that's not to mention the massive differences in the landscape of college athletics from the 1980s to today.
Agree 100% that they are very different schools in very different locations. Just trying to offer one example of a school that pretty much gave up on intercollegiate sports completely -- disappointing and even angering an alumni base that remembered athletic glory from years gone by -- yet managed to hit a major stride in terms of fundraising and academic achievement. NYU is not alone in that distinction.
My point again is not to recommend that VU follow the same path. I think it would be a mistake, for many reasons that folks are bringing up in this thread and elsewhere. Rather, I'm playing a devil's advocate role with folks who think that the VU's D1 sports program is a linchpin for a successful future for the University overall.
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 10, 2023, 04:54:31 PM
Well said 16. At this point in time, VU basketball (direct expense and income) probably takes a pretty big loss. Indirect P/L would also be a loss if the players are occupying dorm room you could sell or class seats you could sell. I doubt that amounts to much in this enrollment climate at VU. Harder to quantify is the "buzz" and the presence of your name on the ESPN crawl line. If you aren't generating the "buzz" on campus or on TV, that drives recruitment upward, then competing in D-1 is less of a slam dunk.
Posters on this board know how often we have kicked around the revenue effect of football on VU. I think someone even posted detailed costs and revenue figures once. Football always proves itself in how much net tuition revenue comes to the school from 60-80 male students who simply want to play the game without an athletic scholarship. Off the top of my head I don't know the male-female ratio in colleges nationwide but I am pretty sure it is over 55% female. (I attended in the wrong decade!) So even though football generates little direct revenue and takes a direct net loss, it drives a lot of indirect revenue from enrollment.
It's an excellent point overall, but it doesn't necessarily support staying at D1 for football. I'd bet that a lot of the engineering students on the football team would be here anyway even if it was a D3 operation, because of the significant strength of the engineering school.
That said, I don't think it would be clear sailing for VU if it went D3, especially for football, where you've got some of the strongest D3 programs around in schools like North Central, Wabash, and DePauw. Many of these top D3 squads would be atop the Pioneer League standings.
So....no easy fix. My hope is that Coach Fox stays for a while and builds a competitive football program that can contend for the league title on a regular basis.
Correct in no way am I pushing for a D1 juggernaut in football. What I'm saying is at this point in time Valpo should look at:
1. Where lies their highest profit
2. What puts students at the school (engineering, nursing, football)
With todays technology the amount of student have today, not sure the ole' sports center ticker is a real add on
Quote from: vu72 on January 10, 2023, 08:02:51 AMWow! This is the longest string of posts I can remember!
It should be a safe assumption that Chairback opened this thread with the intent of holding Matt's feet to the fire. BUT! SOMEHOW! UNEXPLAINABLY, this thread has shockingly been hijacked and diverted towards an informed and logical debate touching on the school's proper big picture success or survival strategy!
From time to time it is good to be reminded that there is more to life than basketball.
basketball is part of the Valpo experience, - not everything, but it has had a decent history and success and should not be blown off.
Valpo is part of the MVC - act that you deserve to be part of it or go somewhere else.
Valpo losing it's identity or trying to find its identity doesn't help the problem either.
Quote from: David81 on January 11, 2023, 01:22:16 AMQuote from: crusadermoe on January 10, 2023, 04:54:31 PMWell said 16. At this point in time, VU basketball (direct expense and income) probably takes a pretty big loss. Indirect P/L would also be a loss if the players are occupying dorm room you could sell or class seats you could sell. I doubt that amounts to much in this enrollment climate at VU. Harder to quantify is the "buzz" and the presence of your name on the ESPN crawl line. If you aren't generating the "buzz" on campus or on TV, that drives recruitment upward, then competing in D-1 is less of a slam dunk. Posters on this board know how often we have kicked around the revenue effect of football on VU. I think someone even posted detailed costs and revenue figures once. Football always proves itself in how much net tuition revenue comes to the school from 60-80 male students who simply want to play the game without an athletic scholarship. Off the top of my head I don't know the male-female ratio in colleges nationwide but I am pretty sure it is over 55% female. (I attended in the wrong decade!) So even though football generates little direct revenue and takes a direct net loss, it drives a lot of indirect revenue from enrollment.
It's an excellent point overall, but it doesn't necessarily support staying at D1 for football. I'd bet that a lot of the engineering students on the football team would be here anyway even if it was a D3 operation, because of the significant strength of the engineering school. That said, I don't think it would be clear sailing for VU if it went D3, especially for football, where you've got some of the strongest D3 programs around in schools like North Central, Wabash, and DePauw. Many of these top D3 squads would be atop the Pioneer League standings. So....no easy fix. My hope is that Coach Fox stays for a while and builds a competitive football program that can contend for the league title on a regular basis.
The fact that Valpo's football program is Div 1 is a selling point. When Saint Thomas went Div 1 last year, their fans were all excited about that prospect.
Quote from: justducky on January 11, 2023, 12:39:03 PM
Quote from: vu72 on January 10, 2023, 08:02:51 AMWow! This is the longest string of posts I can remember!
It should be a safe assumption that Chairback opened this thread with the intent of holding Matt's feet to the fire. BUT! SOMEHOW! UNEXPLAINABLY, this thread has shockingly been hijacked and diverted towards an informed and logical debate touching on the school's proper big picture success or survival strategy!
From time to time it is good to be reminded that there is more to life than basketball.
I plead guilty to being among the hijackers, didn't intend it that way, but I see how the discussion has morphed.
Honestly, I'd be saddened if VU gave up on trying to establish itself as a successful mid-major sports program. It may be that the transfer portal has so poisoned the D1 game that most mid-majors are going to suffer from this new reality. If so, then VU will be joining many other quality academic institutions in confronting tough decisions.
The MBB coaching situation brings all of this up. This has been the school's marquee program since 1998, if not a bit earlier. Speaking personally, as an alum from the Rochlitz/Smith era, I didn't give the MBB program much attention until Bryce entered the scene. The run from there to Alec Peters was (yeah, using past tense) a really good one.
Quite understandably, those of you who cut your VU teeth during that 20-year run are especially dismayed. I hope for everyone's sake that a turnaround is in the offing.
Quote from: David81 on January 11, 2023, 02:37:20 PMIt may be that the transfer portal has so poisoned the D1 game that most mid-majors are going to suffer from this new reality. If so, then VU will be joining many other quality academic institutions in confronting tough decisions.
It has worked both ways relative to the portal. Witness the team who recently beat us (Murray State) has a roster made up of eight transfer and five freshman. Basically their entire roster went into the portal last year when their coach left. Yet some how that team beat us (albeit in overtime) at our place and now stands at 4-3 in conference while we are 0-7. At the same time, Indiana State, currently sitting in first place in The Valley, has nine transfers on their roster. It is more than the portal being the problem. I'll leave it at that.
Convo morphed because
Matt Lottich needs fired. Team starts games uninspired and he can't control runs with timeouts
University needs to fire him, but from what I've heard even if they wanted to they can't swallow the 345k.
Which alluded to conversation of how a high priced, outdated university does not have money. Where's that money going!?
Google provided answer. In 2014 Heckler paid himself 395k according to the Indystar. Third out of every Indiana private institution (Butler/Notre Dame 1&2) Butler has joined Big East for their athletic fundings and Notre Dame is a well oiled machine.
Now. 4&5 are Evansville (335k) and Earlham (356k). Earlham sports are all but dead and Evansville not far behind. Also. Heckler had zero President experience with a Drama major and Psychology master.
Uindy has the 4th best athletics for private schools in state , their president made 173k. That's nearly a quarter of a million dollar difference for one employee. Annually.
Uindy has 5600 undergrad. Meaning Valparaiso paid a Drama Major roughly 2.5 million more than Uindy, to manage less students from 2010-2020. Comedy of errors
There are reasons why Valpo is where it's at.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 08, 2023, 01:39:56 PMI like both viewpoints from 23 and 62
well, then I'll rate your viewpoint an 85. :-)
This is great and just as I assumed...Heckler screwed up so much around this place....
Quote from: justducky on January 11, 2023, 12:39:03 PMQuote from: vu72 on January 10, 2023, 08:02:51 AMWow! This is the longest string of posts I can remember!
It should be a safe assumption that Chairback opened this thread with the intent of holding Matt's feet to the fire. BUT! SOMEHOW! UNEXPLAINABLY, this thread has shockingly been hijacked and diverted towards an informed and logical debate touching on the school's proper big picture success or survival strategy! From time to time it is good to be reminded that there is more to life than basketball.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! HE'S LOST IT!!!!!!!!
The start of the Belmont game was one of the best starts this season. We were aggressive on offense, played at a faster pace, and defended pretty well finally getting off that "poor start" situation. Then Matt substitutes at the point guard and things went down hill as we were leading 13-5 then got outscored 24-4. Momentum was gone, offensive aggression ceased for the most part and things went downhill from there. Why in the world did Coach break-up the 5 guys that started the on such a positive note, something they had been striving for? They showed no effort in getting around screens on the top. I must say I believe coaching was most responsible for last night's loss.
Quote from: JD24 on January 11, 2023, 04:40:23 PM
Quote from: justducky on January 11, 2023, 12:39:03 PMQuote from: vu72 on January 10, 2023, 08:02:51 AMWow! This is the longest string of posts I can remember!
It should be a safe assumption that Chairback opened this thread with the intent of holding Matt's feet to the fire. BUT! SOMEHOW! UNEXPLAINABLY, this thread has shockingly been hijacked and diverted towards an informed and logical debate touching on the school's proper big picture success or survival strategy! From time to time it is good to be reminded that there is more to life than basketball.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! HE'S LOST IT!!!!!!!!
I have only one reaction to your reaction, JD :lol: 🤣 😎. Well, maybe a couple 🙄
BTW, fellow contributors and fellow (and I am not making this up cuz I'm one two) a$$wholes, I lurked the whole time I was on self-induced sabbatical, but I really missed inserting my weirdness into this mess we call the Valpo Fan Forum. Of course, if I ever got to meet the any of you people in person, I probably wuddah been outta here years ago. 😜
I think Heckler had a leadership role at UC-Denver. So he didn't walk out of the faculty lounge with a pipe and board a flight to Valpo. Ha. But he definitely leaned toward drama and woke agendas. He got pretty political in his inauguration speech.
He may not have known anything about sports growing up. He didn't look comfortable in a baseball cap or seem to know how to wear one when one was handed to him at the first basketball game. I think he was also a vegan, making chats around a grill with coaches at a golf outing or a tailgate a little less natural. My sense is that Padilla can pull that off better but I don't know that.
Quote from: crusadermoe on January 11, 2023, 05:47:45 PM
I think Heckler had a leadership role at UC-Denver. So he didn't walk out of the faculty lounge with a pipe and board a flight to Valpo. Ha. But he definitely leaned toward drama and woke agendas. He got pretty political in his inauguration speech.
He may not have known anything about sports growing up. He didn't look comfortable in a baseball cap or seem to know how to wear one when one was handed to him at the first basketball game. I think he was also a vegan, making chats around a grill with coaches at a golf outing or a tailgate a little less natural. My sense is that Padilla can pull that off better but I don't know that.
Board hired him and the other admins who dismantled this place.
For a bunch of supposed"leaders" we sure ended up with some dopey adminstration.
Quote from: usc4valpo on January 08, 2023, 05:40:19 PM
Remembering those great years of Tom Smith and the stall offense at the Hilltop.
And the Harden number one salute to Smith
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Specifically, How much money would Valpo eat if they dismissed Lottich today?
Everyone is in agreement a coaching change should and will be made.
The only plot left is whether it happens before the season ends, during the last week, or the day after we're eliminated from Arch Madness.
We're in a two month purgatory right now where nothing really matters as we await the inevitable.
I'm still not understanding where the sources are that allegedly confirm this $345,000 buyout for ML's contract?...
Most assume that .......
# Because he is now being paid around that amount right now.
# And that he still has a valid extension going into 2023-24.
# And that most D-I HC contracts have buy-out clauses that kick in for firing for any reason other than cause. And a losing coaching record is not considered cause.
That would mean that Matt would probably be contractually entitled to collect all or a negotiated portion of next year's salary.
At least that's my take on this issue.
Quote from: Dr. T on January 12, 2023, 10:13:35 PM
I'm still not understanding where the sources are that allegedly confirm this $345,000 buyout for ML's contract?...
Annual federal tax return lists salaries and other income for Matt, the president, and others.
MVC Coaches SalaryQuoteMen's basketball
#* Porter Moser, Loyola — $1,096,244
Ben Jacobson, Northern Iowa — $900,000
* Brian Wardle, Bradley — $708,920
Dan Muller, Illinois State — $564,000
Bryan Mullins, Southern Illinois — $475,000
Dana Ford, Missouri State — $438,368
* Matt Lottich, Valparaiso — $346,334
@ Darian DeVries, Drake — $334,706
Josh Schertz, Indiana State — $300,000
% Walter McCarty, Evansville — $225,619
https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2021/06/30/missouri-valley-conference-what-head-coaches-making-contracts-bobby-petrino-amaka-agugua-hamilton/7765206002/
DeVries will certainly be bagging more coin soon - he is doing well at Drake
OK, but wasn't done immediately.
It happened!!
Thank God it's not April 1 or I wouldn't have believed it — way to go Dr. Small & Co.!
Way to provide some hope for this program and in turn a commitment to the future — not only of this program but the institution and community.