The Valparaiso Beacons Fan Zone Forum

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/1359903254147129344

I'm sure people will get worked up just to get worked up....I just hope they find something cooler then the Crusader mascot we had.

I would love to see the final results for that survey we all filled out. Anyone here have the clout within the university to pull it?

Quote from: NotBryceDrew on February 11, 2021, 11:20:24 AMI would love to see the final results for that survey we all filled out. Anyone here have the clout within the university to pull it?

It will never see the light of day, because it will likely show that most people were not offended and against the name change... The survey was a mere formality to a decision that had already been made.

Just wait until Valpo high school realizes what the Vikings used to do to villages they invaded...

I was never a big fan of the Crusader mascot and was generally in favor of changing the mascot. But I feel strongly that this is not the most important issue facing the university and that prioritizing this when there are much more important issues (finances during and after COVID pandemic) that threaten the sustainability of the university. Dealing with this now is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Further, while I am not against the decision (though I am against the timing) - I struggle with how this was announced. I read the email from the Interim President and watched the video. They say that they received input from 7700 people (good!), but then only offered ambiguous terms on what those responses said. Terms like "many people" were used over more specific numbers, which lends itself to people who were/are against this concluding that their opinions didn't matter.

Hear me out... We could be the Valparaiso Kernels. It's a play off of Colonels and ties in to Valparaiso's popcorn tradition. With a sponsorship the ARC could change to the Orville Redenbacher Center, the ORC. And it perfectly matches our school colors, brown for the kernels, gold for the delicious, fluffy popcorn.  :twocents:

I'm only mostly joking.

The Prez has to keep those all-knowing faculty members on his/her side.  I can't help think that the President has more important things to worry about than the mascot and a few unhappy faculty members.  Priorities!!

The results of the survey will not be announced. I will bet my bottom dollar that those who voted in favor of the name change were a distinct minority.

The survey, I believe, was a sham exercise simply to provide the University with cover that could be used whenever they decided to announce a decision that had already been made.

Paul

How about "The Valparaiso Athletics Program". Would look nice next to the Washington football team.

After giving this a little more thought, my guess is that the ultimate decision was driven by feedback from the university's major donors. The reality is that they would never do this without the support of most (if not all) of the major donors. Releasing the survey detail would be a more effective way of being transparent, but the big money is what drives (or limits) decision-making.

Our new mascot will be "Pearl Milling Company"

Overall, I don't think that many alums will be outraged by the name change. But vu84v2 is spot on - this mascot name change is insignificant compare to more pressing issues, particularly finances, sustaining and  improving admissions standards, keeping programs strong, etc.

Quote from: vu84v2 on February 11, 2021, 12:01:19 PMAfter giving this a little more thought, my guess is that the ultimate decision was driven by feedback from the university's major donors. The reality is that they would never do this without the support of most (if not all) of the major donors. Releasing the survey detail would be a more effective way of being transparent, but the big money is what drives (or limits) decision-making.

Logically that makes sense, but these decisions are emotion driven typically. Valpo wants to avoid negative press from the vocal minority, so they cave to pressure. It is what it is in todays age. Every company does it, so its hard to get too upset about it. I personally doubt the major donors had much of a say or influence in it.

We knew this was coming, but that doesn't mean I'm happy about it. For me, this is up there with the day BD announced he was leaving and the HLT loss to Green Bay as most disappointing days as a Crusader fan.

brown and gold - the Fighting Bowels! Use the poop emoji as the mascot. Ok, let's move to bigger items, shall we?

Since we now know its being changed, hopefully they choose a cool, live mascot...like the pandas, koalas, polar bears, or tigers. Maybe we can get The Tiger King to make an appearance. But we can't get too exotic or we'll have the animal organizations coming after us. Maybe the safe play, like The Washington Football Team, is to rebrand as The Valparaiso University.

Do you think they'd dare go with "Knights" (or something similar) and actually retain the mascot and logo? I'd much rather that than "Hawks" or something generic

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 11, 2021, 12:51:32 PM
brown and gold - the Fighting Bowels! Use the poop emoji as the mascot. Ok, let's move to bigger items, shall we?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Change it to a name unused across Division 1. That's all I ask. A name that stands out and gives us our own identity.


No Tigers, Eagles, Hawks, Jaguars, Bulldogs, Lions, Bears, Panthers, Wildcats, etc.

Would this be a good time to change our colors?

This is the first step in a three part plan to be proposed by the student and faculty senates. Next, the name of the university will be changed from "Valparaiso" because of its connections to war, death, loss, and colonialism: "On March 28, 1814, the USS Essex was defeated by British frigates Phoebe and Cherub during the War of 1812, leading to the deaths of 58 US Marines. (Captain David Porter, a survivor of this attack, would retire to Portersville, IN and request changing the name to Valparaíso, commemorating the only naval battle he ever lost.)" The third step is to move the university from "Indiana" to another state that does not reference Native Americans in such an objectionable way.   [sarcasm alert]

Unfortunately, this means that I will probably stop giving to the university going forward.  No final decision, but in the near future, I am not happy with this move, and won't give my usual February donation with company match.  Especially including the far left Student Body President, as if it is some type of huge win for her, it does not align with my viewpoints.  I do not support the over sensationalism that this 'woke' culture is giving to words that really have no contentious meaning.  Just because one hate group has been utilizing a word, doesn't mean that we should immediately react, and let them own that word.  As others have said, you can be a Crusader for justice, or various other positive aspects.  Very disappointing.

Sad. 

At this point sell the nickname to the highest bidder and change it every 5 years to get money into the school.

The Valparaiso Centiers. 

Then the Valparaiso Task Force Tips in 5 years. 

I've found the current student president self-righteous and unlikable for awhile now. I'm embarrassed she's the representative of our student body.

Just come up with something good for the new name. Retiring Crusaders *and* replacing it with something lame would be the double whammy.

My opinion, changing mascots because of a vocal minority is silly. This assumes a minority is driving this decision. I am bothered by the way this process went, with little to no transparency of results with dare I say most or many alums. Time will tell if donations are affected. [emoji102]

The strategy of the interim president announcing this now before President Padilla officially takes over is smart. Keeps him from at the start of his presidency having to announce a controversial decision.






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I invite you to vote for a new name on the PFL message board.

Valpofanzone.com has an outdated/dead link to the board.  Here is where you'll find it now:
https://pflfan.proboards.com/

So by next basketball season we might see a shield logo on the ARC floor. Let's see, who will that offend? Seems it could represent a battle or weapon of a warrior of some sort. Nope. No good.

I say go with no nickname, no mascot. Can't offend anybody that way. We will just be "The Valparaiso University". We just will have to bow out of the MVC mascot battle held over the summer I think. And if one is there get that Crusader mascot out of the Whiting, IN mascot exhibit.



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I can't believe people are mad about a costumed character.  People calling those who were upset about the mascot snowflakes (or whatever synonym you like) and then turning around and acting like snowflakes themselves when a change happens.

Quote from: may know on February 11, 2021, 11:14:21 AM
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/1359903254147129344

Now I'm confused. Is "retiring the Crusader mascot over the coming months" the same as "changing the Crusader nickname?" If it is, it's certainly a strange way of saying it. The Crusader mascot and the Crusader nickname are related but different. The mascot is a symbol. There are examples where universities changed their mascot but retained their nickname.

The timing is exactly right for the administration. An interim president makes the change, and the new president won't have to take the heat.

In terms of the teams playing under a different name? No big deal. My support has always been for the university not some logo or symbol.

Personally, I have no problem with the current mascot (unlike the Redskins, which definitely needed to be changed). I thought it was unique and don't think too many people (if any at all) took personal offense to it. That being said, the argument that there are many types of Crusaders, not just the ones who participated in the actual Crusades, is a stretch at best. The word exists because of the Crusades, not the other way around. Overall, I personally wouldn't have voted to get rid of the mascot, but was the President just supposed to ignore the resounding student and faculty senate votes? I believe the votes were something like 20-2 and 22-0 in the student and faculty senate. What's the point of having a student and faculty senate if the administration doesn't listen to them when there is such resounding agreement? I assume they were elected by their peers to be on the senate, so it seems pretty clear what the students and faculty want. If the representation is biased towards the "woke mob", who's fault is that for not electing less "woke'' people onto the senate? Stopping your donations over something with such little consequence is just going to hurt the University more. So if you want VU to go out of business (and no more VU basketball) in 10 years, go ahead and stop donating, but you're only hurting yourself and your school. This is being blown way out of proportion.

Quote from: valpotx on February 11, 2021, 01:28:03 PM
Unfortunately, this means that I will probably stop giving to the university going forward.  No final decision, but in the near future, I am not happy with this move, and won't give my usual February donation with company match.  Especially including the far left Student Body President, as if it is some type of huge win for her, it does not align with my viewpoints.  I do not support the over sensationalism that this 'woke' culture is giving to words that really have no contentious meaning.  Just because one hate group has been utilizing a word, doesn't mean that we should immediately react, and let them own that word.  As others have said, you can be a Crusader for justice, or various other positive aspects.  Very disappointing.

ValpoTX, I just want to make this one point. This conversation was raging when we were students at Valpo. There were forums and discussions and chalkings and people were strongly opposed to the nickname 20 years ago. To label this as something that is just a problem with "woke" culture at colleges today (I know you didn't label this to colleges, but I've seen many others do so), it ignores the fact that the Valparaiso community has been talking about doing this for decades.

You can't script the self-unawareness of M ripping others for being "mad about a costumed character" when the whole cause of this situation is....others being "mad about a costumer costumed character".

So either you're upset with both sides being "mad about a costumed character" or your view is hypocritical. So far, your posts have only attacked one side when, logically, that specific gripe would apply to both.

This from a sports reporter:


[tweet]1359968399397429255[/tweet]

Quote from: M on February 11, 2021, 02:27:20 PM
I can't believe people are mad about a costumed character.  People calling those who were upset about the mascot snowflakes (or whatever synonym you like) and then turning around and acting like snowflakes themselves when a change happens.

Your comment would also apply to the folks that are mad about the current mascot.  Can you also not believe that people are mad about the current mascot?

Quote from: may know on February 11, 2021, 02:54:30 PM
You can't script the self-unawareness of M ripping others for being "mad about a costumed character" when the whole cause of this situation is....others being "mad about a costumer costumed character".

So either you're upset with both sides being "mad about a costumed character" or your view is hypocritical. So far, your posts have only attacked one side when, logically, that specific gripe would apply to both.

So freakin' true. Some ppl are so stupid it's incredible.

Since the university is erasing the name Crusader and asking that news and sports reporters no longer use the name, does this mean those wearing Crusader shirts to future games will be barred or shamed? Are the many members of this list who use "crusader" as part of their id going to be required to change those names? Should we change the title of this thread to "********* Retired."  [partially sarcastic]

Quote from: vok22 on February 11, 2021, 02:50:12 PM
Personally, I have no problem with the current mascot (unlike the Redskins, which definitely needed to be changed). I thought it was unique and don't think too many people (if any at all) took personal offense to it. That being said, the argument that there are many types of Crusaders, not just the ones who participated in the actual Crusades, is a stretch at best. The word exists because of the Crusades, not the other way around. Overall, I personally wouldn't have voted to get rid of the mascot, but was the President just supposed to ignore the resounding student and faculty senate votes? I believe the votes were something like 20-2 and 22-0 in the student and faculty senate. What's the point of having a student and faculty senate if the administration doesn't listen to them when there is such resounding agreement? I assume they were elected by their peers to be on the senate, so it seems pretty clear what the students and faculty want. If the representation is biased towards the "woke mob", who's fault is that for not electing less "woke'' people onto the senate? Stopping your donations over something with such little consequence is just going to hurt the University more. So if you want VU to go out of business (and no more VU basketball) in 10 years, go ahead and stop donating, but you're only hurting yourself and your school. This is being blown way out of proportion.

I support the school that I attended, at the time that I attended.  Much as if an association I am providing donations, changes their branding or viewpoints, I get to reassess where my money goes.  If I view an organization as catering to more of a far left viewpoint on societal issues, I am not keen to send my money to that association.  I am right of center, not far right (did not vote for Trump or Biden, but rather third party in the last 2 presidential elections), and am married to a Liberal, but I do not support this over sensationalism of vocabulary that is being brought forth by the further left crowd.  I don't have to support my university for perpetuity, just because I graduated from the institution. 

Quote from: Pgmado on February 11, 2021, 02:51:00 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 11, 2021, 01:28:03 PM
Unfortunately, this means that I will probably stop giving to the university going forward.  No final decision, but in the near future, I am not happy with this move, and won't give my usual February donation with company match.  Especially including the far left Student Body President, as if it is some type of huge win for her, it does not align with my viewpoints.  I do not support the over sensationalism that this 'woke' culture is giving to words that really have no contentious meaning.  Just because one hate group has been utilizing a word, doesn't mean that we should immediately react, and let them own that word.  As others have said, you can be a Crusader for justice, or various other positive aspects.  Very disappointing.

ValpoTX, I just want to make this one point. This conversation was raging when we were students at Valpo. There were forums and discussions and chalkings and people were strongly opposed to the nickname 20 years ago. To label this as something that is just a problem with "woke" culture at colleges today (I know you didn't label this to colleges, but I've seen many others do so), it ignores the fact that the Valparaiso community has been talking about doing this for decades.

I fully realize, based on Facebook posts, that we are on different sides of this issue.  I respect your opinion, and those other folks that have similar opinions.  I just don't share it.  The conversation would happen when we were in school, and we took a similar survey, but it has always been a vocal minority.  The word Crusader is not inherently offensive.  I am not religious.  The Crusades were not just against folks of Muslim/Islamic faith, but rather could be anyone that wasn't Christian/Catholic.  I have never been offended by the Crusader nickname, as a non-believer, who would have been persecuted back in the Middle Ages. 

Quote from: vu84v2 on February 11, 2021, 12:01:19 PM
After giving this a little more thought, my guess is that the ultimate decision was driven by feedback from the university's major donors. The reality is that they would never do this without the support of most (if not all) of the major donors. Releasing the survey detail would be a more effective way of being transparent, but the big money is what drives (or limits) decision-making.

I would actually suggest the opposite- that major donors tend to be those strongly tied to the Lutheran tradition who would likely view the crusader mascot as representing Christian values (strong sense of vocation and purpose, contending for faith, and then related to athletics a general competitive fighting spirit) and not religious oppression. The faculty and student senates made it very clear they supported a change and I don't see how the taskforce could have dismissed that.

Alumni are the ones who give to the university and it seems from the vague survey allusions that those urging the crusader's retirement were not a majority.  So, I don't see how this decision could have been driven by a desire to dincrease giving. It would be interesting to hear current student-athletes' thoughts on the matter because they're the only ones who really personally experience the crusader nickname.

I hope the new name can keep the shield so we don't have to totally rebrand and stay distinctive. On another note we can probably keep the fight song by just changing the word 'crusader' to whatever the new mascot is 👍

I did not mean to imply that the name change was intended to increase giving, but rather way stating that they probably made sure that it would not significantly decrease giving. The decision to change the mascot/nickname had the potential to be volatile, so I would assume they contacted the major donors (those who average over $100K per year - plus those who target large sums from the estate) and told them what was being considered. If more than a few came back and said, "we don't agree and we won't give money if you change it", then they would not change. Only if most or all say that they are in favor of the change or are indifferent would they change the name.

I think both are silly. Haven't attacked anyone. I just want to be able to watch Valpo play in person again, doesn't matter what character is on the helmet/uniform/whatever.

Front page of ESPN.com

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30882084/valparaiso-dropping-crusaders-name-mascot-logos

We are lucky that there doesn't appear to be a Comments section tied to that portion of the link.  We would get thrashed.

Quote from: may know on February 11, 2021, 01:13:24 PM
Change it to a name unused across Division 1. That's all I ask. A name that stands out and gives us our own identity.


No Tigers, Eagles, Hawks, Jaguars, Bulldogs, Lions, Bears, Panthers, Wildcats, etc.

Agreed I am going with the Vultures

Quote from: valpotx on February 11, 2021, 04:32:38 PMWe are lucky that there doesn't appear to be a Comments section tied to that portion of the link.  We would get thrashed.

ESPN has done away with comments section I believe. Most of the articles with a certain spin on them were getting trashed pretty regularly. Many other sites have done the same. Much like the results of the survey, you can pretend unpopular ideas are well accepted if you don't show the opposition.

All press is good press right? Not since the the sweet sixteen has Valpo been getting this much press.

Personally i wouldn't change but I also don't really care. I have my Crusader bobble head sitting in my office and he will stay.

I never got that excited either way for or against the crusader mascot.  In the survey, I suggested that they stress the positive aspects of crusading for something such as truth, justice or some worthwhile cause and get rid of the goofy looking image.  Obviously, there are those that see it as a negative symbol.  If some hate groups use the term for their newsletter, that's just the more reason to find something else.  Those that mention that they will withdraw their support for the university because of this decision, I would think that their support is based on a weak justification.  There are many more positive attributes of the university and its mission that will live on and are worthy of support.  Such a change in the mascot is really low on the scale of priorities.

I was not tied to it, but I hate succumbing to woke people.

Vu making it difficult for me....

1.  They cut the sport I played at Valpo
2.  Change the mascot
3.  Proud hoops program hasn't finished in the top half of the league since 2017

Tough to recognize the school I graduated from.  Guess that's life. 

Tough to see student bragging about being able to change the mascot during her tenure, then using that to end up on ESPN

Here's her twitter handle

@ksteinhiser1999

The Valparaiso Dunes

Quote from: valpofb16 on February 11, 2021, 06:00:19 PMTough to see student bragging about being able to change the mascot during her tenure, then using that to end up on ESPN

Interesting that the name was changed at a time when student attendance at basketball games has cratered. I wonder how many people pushing the name change actually attended games on a regular basis.

I wonder if the university is paying a marketing company to come up with the new mascot. I echo everyone else's concerns that there have to be larger issues facing the university now that resources and attention would be better directed at than this. That video by the intermin president and student president announcing this was also terrible. I nearly fell asleep watching it.

Im not a fan of the change, but as USC mentioned earlier, I hope they use this opportunity to change the colors from the atrocious looking brown. A black and yellow or gold would be nice. Maybe a black and gold like Wake Forest.   

I'm against the change of mascot, but I'm going to reserve judgement until I see what comes of it. I really hope we're not just the "Brown & Gold" going forward.

That being said, I always find it ironic when those who love to lob around the term "snowflakes" seem to get really easily offended at something like this which is, in the grand scheme of our lives, mostly inconsequential.

We just got a segment on ABC7.

I wonder if this would've been different had it happened circa 2010-14 when you had student leaders like VU2014, VUGrad1314, etc that would've put up resistance against this current student president who puts herself on a pedestal and thinks she speaks for everyone.

Will be hilarious to watch the student body president graduate, 240k in debt, realizing that nobody in the real world will give two you know whats she changed a mascot, she will probably move to DC, fail, then be at home at moms 240k in debt.

But hey!

That ESPN article will never die!

The heck with the mascot name, I just want to see Valpo play winning basketball. Make a turd with sneakers as the mascot for all I care, I just want to see Valpo kick butt in the MVC and not play in a HS gym.

Quote from: valpolaw on February 11, 2021, 06:18:00 PM
That video by the interim president and student president announcing this was also terrible. I nearly fell asleep watching it.

A point was made in the video that a reason for removing the Crusader was that hate groups like the KKK had made associations with it as an image. Using that logic, who wants to be the one to inform the university about other conspicuous removals from campus that might be necessary because of the KKK's association with the cross?

As a lawyer, I view the word "crusader" in a positive light.  There have been many "crusaders" for one cause or another, generally meritorious causes.  If anything, the juxtaposition of "crusader" with a basketball team (or any other sports team), was simply confusing.

When I completed the survey, I expressed ambivalence.  There's a nickname: the Valparaiso University Ambivalent.

Quote from: valpopal on February 11, 2021, 02:55:12 PM
This from a sports reporter:


[tweet]1359968399397429255[/tweet]

I can't wait until the next televised home game when the players run back and forth across the Crusader logo at half-court yet the announcers are forbidden to say "Crusader"—it will be like the line from an old Marx Brothers movie: "Well, who ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes?"

Long time reader of this message board since mid - 2010s. Have lived the highs and lows of the program and school and like many of you am passionate about this university and all of the opportunities it allowed for me. I honestly want to know what others want for a mascot name, what ideas do you all have?

I personally like these two:
Reformers
Valkyrie

:twocents:

Valkyrie is insanely awesome. Vultures is good too.

Quote from: VUSERF on February 11, 2021, 07:02:30 PMI personally like these two:
Reformers
Valkyrie

If VU is citing that fact that the KKK has a newspaper named "the Crusader" as justifying changed the name, then there's a 0% chance they pick a mascot from Norse mythology.

Or Vanguard

Monks

Quote from: rogerwilco on February 11, 2021, 06:02:54 PM
The Valparaiso Dunes

Valparaiso Cara Dunes  :thumbsup:

Quote from: valpofb16 on February 11, 2021, 06:00:19 PM
Tough to see student bragging about being able to change the mascot during her tenure, then using that to end up on ESPN

Here's her twitter handle

@ksteinhiser1999

Ever since I saw someone referencing her public shaming of another student last year, tied to liking a Twitter or Facebook post, specific to something that could be considered racist, I viewed her in a negative light.  She is part of the doxing crowd, of which I have no respect.

Just to add to the debate.  I was not offended by the Crusader mascot, but I voted for the change in the survey.  The debate has dogged us for decades. Time to move on.  It's a cartoon character on the uniform.  Surely our allegiance should be to the university, the students, the professors, the staff, the coaches, and the athletes.  The mascot feels very low on the list of points of meaningful pride. 

Also, if the last 4 years has taught us anything, one should be that it's best not to assume that everyone thinks exactly like you do.  You might be deceiving yourself to assume that the results were skewed one way just because your social group leans the other.

I think that some of you are not getting that this isn't solely the mascot change that has folks up in arms.  It is the overly sensitive nature of what this all ties to and the reasons provided publicly, and how I/we now view the university.  If the university is going to be publicly far left-leaning, like a Loyola (IL), I have no reason to support the university in the future.  This isn't just about a sports mascot to me, and being afraid of change. 

Quote from: valpotx on February 11, 2021, 08:05:11 PM
I think that some of you are not getting that this isn't solely the mascot change that has folks up in arms.  It is the overly sensitive nature of what this all ties to and the reasons provided publicly, and how I/we now view the university.  If the university is going to be publicly far left-leaning, like a Loyola (IL), I have no reason to support the university in the future.  This isn't just about a sports mascot to me, and being afraid of change. 

This makes me better understand your objection and decision to potentially pull back from donating to the university AND makes me feel more strongly that the mascot change is the right move both at the same time. 

It tells me that neither side is inherently wrong, it's just a difference in how we each view the world. 

Quote from: valpotx on February 11, 2021, 08:05:11 PM
If the university is going to be publicly far left-leaning, like a Loyola (IL), I have no reason to support the university in the future.

Perhaps relative to the university's public political leaning going forward, the incoming VU president is a former political appointee who was selected by Mayor Lori Lightfoot to serve on her transition team.

https://twitter.com/chrisartis5/status/1360028116886945793?s=21

ca weighed in on Twitter. Funny exchange with his boss


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Two possible new nicknames:

Golden Finches (someone I know suggested this)
Golden Knights (yeah, I know that the Vegas hockey team uses this - but it fits in a variety of ways and is not used by any D1 team)

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 11, 2021, 06:22:59 PMMake a turd with sneakers as the mascot

Whoa....watch it with the personal insults there buddy.

Quote from: milwvu04 on February 11, 2021, 07:45:33 PM

Quote from: rogerwilco on February 11, 2021, 06:02:54 PMThe Valparaiso Dunes

Valparaiso Cara Dunes  :thumbsup:

How about Lorna Dunes?

People will have their stomach growling at each mention.

The Valparaiso Cruise Aid Givers?
I mean, it's helpful and topical.

Quote from: rogerwilco on February 11, 2021, 11:54:40 PMThe Valparaiso Cruise Aid Givers? I mean, it's helpful and topical.

Shorten it to Cruise Aiders

Even if I'm neutral on the name change does everyone remember when we were making headlines because we were good at basketball? Those sure were some good times that feel like an eternity ago... If the new name brings with it good karma to make our program good again change me from neutral to all for it.

I presume that there will be some effort to tie the new name to Valpo's motto "In Thy light, we see light."

I would have to presume that they will reject the traditional term for those who carry the candle in a liturgical procession.  Trivia question:  what is that term?

JD24 - how was my response offensive?

Why not keep the name Crusaders, and retire the mascot? Follow the lead of another institution, the College of the Holy Cross, which has successfully navigated these same waters by choosing to accept their own definition of what it means to be a "Crusader" and not accept definitions of the past and/or ones dictated by outside "hate groups" which do not represent Valpo and its many stakeholders. See the post below copied from the Holy Cross website.

From: Rev. Philip L. Boroughs, S.J., President of the College
To: Alumni, Students, Faculty and Staff
March 14, 2018

Dear Members of the College Community,

Several weeks ago, our Board of Trustees completed a period of discussion and discernment and, based on thoughtful input from many of you, chose to reaffirm our identity as Crusaders. But our work was not done. At the same time, the Board tasked our administration with assessing all visual representations of the Crusader, to ensure they align with our definition of what it means to be a Holy Cross Crusader. That definition is based on a contemporary understanding of the term, which suggests a noble effort to support a cause, to right a wrong or to make a difference.

As we discussed as a community the appropriateness of our use of the Crusader moniker and mascot, several themes emerged. We are Holy Cross Crusaders for:

The importance of the intellectual life, critical thinking and reflective learning.
The Jesuit and Catholic intellectual and spiritual traditions.
The dialogue between faith and reason.
The common good, human rights, social justice and care for the environment.
Human life.
Interreligious understanding and dialogue.
Inclusivity and respect for different cultures, perspectives and identities.
Honesty, equality, fairness and freedom of speech.
Health of mind, body and spirit.

Since the founding of the College, our students, faculty, staff, and alumni have embodied these ideals. Our students spend their spring breaks working with the poor and marginalized in Haiti, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Appalachia and recent grads generously join the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, Teach for America and the Peace Corps. Our alumni become teachers, doctors, researchers, government officials, religious and priests, and advocates for the transformation of society through education, social service and business. These are just a few examples of what it means to be a Crusader today.

Upon reflection on this contemporary definition, it is clear that our current visual representations of the Crusader do not align with this understanding. For some, knight imagery alone could convey nobility, chivalry and bravery. However, the visual depiction of a knight, in conjunction with the moniker Crusader, inevitably ties us directly to the reality of the religious wars and the violence of the Crusades. This imagery stands in contrast to our stated values.

Over the coming months, the College will gradually phase out the use of all knight-related imagery. Moving forward, the College will use the interlocking HC on a purple shield, currently the secondary athletics logo, as the primary marker for all athletic teams, uniforms and advertising. This also means we will retire our costumed mascot. I understand these decisions will be a disappointment to some of you but I trust our community's support for Holy Cross and for our athletic teams will continue unwaveringly.

I want to thank all of you who have participated in this discussion about our identity. These conversations aren't easy, but they are necessary. I am hopeful we have emerged with an even stronger sense of who we are and what we stand for, and that you all remain as proud as I am to be a part of the Holy Cross community.

Sincerely,

Rev. Philip L. Boroughs, S.J.
President

This is feeling like the South Park Christmas episode where Mr. Hankey saves the day.

This distracts from a sub par basketball results. 

Considering the financial position of VU, I would hope that the financial impact of changing the mascot was considered. If not, then it would seem to be another example of the university making questionable financial decisions.

It wouldn't surprise me to see them go with Knights or Valiants just so they wouldn't have to redo the basketball court.

I think the survey was simply an exercise to provide cover for the administration when it decided to announce (the preordained) decision to jettison the Crusader name.  Similarly, I suspect the decision was announced by the Interim President in order to provide cover for the incoming President ("Hey, the decision was made before I officially assumed the office of the President").  I don't believe for a second that this decision was not blessed by the new President. 

This unwise move by the University has made the work of our Athletics Department employees, every one of whom is a fine person, that much harder.

Paul

Valpo certainly isn't the first to go through this:

List of college nickname changes in the United States
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Adams State Grizzlies, formerly the "Indians"
Akron Zips, called the "Zippers" from 1927 to 1950; this was changed when the term became most associated with the type of clothing fastener.[1][2]
Alabama–Huntsville Chargers, changed from "Uhlan Chargers" to "Chargers" over time[3]
Alaska Nanooks, changed from the "Polar Bears" to "Nanooks" (the Inupiaq word for polar bear) in 1963.[4]
Alvernia Golden Wolves, changed from "Crusaders" ahead of the 2017–18 season[5]
Amherst Mammoths, adopted in 2017 after "Lord Jeffs" was dropped in 2016[6][7]
Arizona State Sun Devils, formerly the "Owls",[8] then the "Bulldogs" from 1922 to 1946[9][10]
Arkansas Razorbacks, changed from the "Cardinals" in 1909.[11]
Arkansas State Red Wolves, formerly the "Indians" (1931–2008), "Warriors" (1930–1931), "Gorillas" (1925–1930), and "Aggies" (1911–1925).[12]
Arkansas Tech Wonder Boys — Originally nicknamed "Aggies"; the term "Wonder Boys" was first attached to the school's football team in an Arkansas Gazette story on November 17, 1920, and was soon officially adopted. The women's nickname of "Golden Suns" was adopted once Tech added women's sports.[13]
Army Black Knights, the current nickname was derived from newspapers calling the team the "Black Knights of the Hudson" in the 1930s. It was changed from the "Cadets" in 1999. Cadets is still considered an acceptable use, however.[14]
Auburn–Montgomery Warhawks — Changed from "Senators" in 2011.
Ball State Cardinals, changed from the "Hoosieroons" in 1929.[15]
Baruch Bearcats, formerly the "Statesmen"
Belmont Bruins, changed from "Rebels" in 1995
Bethel Threshers, changed from "Graymaroons" in 1960[16]
Binghamton Bearcats, changed from "Colonials" in 2000. The school has had two previous nickname changes, but both coincided with changes of the school name. For those changes, see below.
Bloomfield Bears, changed from "Deacons" in 2014
Bowling Green Falcons, changed from the "Normals" in 1927.[17]
Bradley Braves, changed from "Indians" in the 1930s[18]
Brewton–Parker Barons, formerly the "Wildcats"
Brooklyn Bridges, formerly the "Kingsmen"
Brown Bears, Senator Theodore F. Green suggested the nickname "Bears" in 1904,[19] but the unofficial nickname "Bruins" became more prevalent starting in the 1930s.[20] It was formerly used interchangeably with the official nickname, although some media disused "Bruins" after a minor league hockey team, the Providence Bruins, was established nearby in 1992.[21]
Buffalo Bulls, formerly known as the "Bisons" (1915–1930), changed to distinguish from the city of Buffalo's identically named professional teams.[22]
Butler Bulldogs — First known as "Christians", alluding to the school's original name of North Western Christian University (though it had become Butler University in 1877, before the school had an athletic program). The "Bulldogs" nickname was first used in 1919 by a cartoonist for Butler's student newspaper, and was soon officially adopted.
Cal State Los Angeles Golden Eagles, changed from "Diablos" in January 1981[23]
Campbell Fighting Camels — Officially adopted near the start of 1934; originated from a misunderstood conversation early in the 20th century between university founder James Archibald Campbell and a visitor trying to encourage him after a fire destroyed almost all of the school's original buildings. Before the official adoption of "Camels" (with "Fighting" added later), "Hornets", "Campbells", and "Campbellites" were variously used.[13]
Capital Crusaders, formerly the "Fighting Lutherans"[24]
Carthage Red Men, reverted from "Redmen"
Case Western Reserve Spartans, formed from the combination of Western Reserve and Case Institute of Technology. Western Reserve's nicknames were the Pioneers (1921—1927) and Red Cats (1928—1971). Case Institute of Technology's nicknames were the Scientists (1918—1938) and Rough Riders (1930—1971). In the 1930s, both of those names were used.[25]
Cedar Crest Falcons, formerly the "Classics"
UCF Knights, reverted from "Golden Knights" from 1993 to 2007.
Central Michigan Chippewas, formerly the "Bearcats" (1927–1942), "Dragons" (1925–1927), and the "Normalites" (until 1925). The current name was chosen in honor of the local Saginaw tribe, and has remained in use with the tribe's consent.[26][27]
Chowan Hawks, reverted from "Braves" in 2006
Cincinnati Christian Eagles, formerly the "Golden Eagles". The school closed during the 2019 fall academic term.
Colgate Raiders, changed from "Red Raiders" in 2001
Colorado Buffaloes, changed from the "Silver and Gold" in 1934. They had also been known informally as the "Arapahoes", "Big Horns", "Frontiersmen", "Grizzlies", "Hornets", "Yellow Jackets", and (the football team) "Silver Helmets".[28]
Colorado State Rams, referred to as "Aggies" before 1957
CSU–Pueblo ThunderWolves, changed from the "Indians" in 1995. The school name was changed from University of Southern Colorado in 2003.[29]
Crossroads Knights, formerly the "Royals"
Cumberland Phoenix, changed from Bulldogs in 2016[30]
Cumberlands Patriots, changed from the Cumberland "Indians" (note the singular "Cumberland") in 2002, when the school was known as Cumberland College. The school adopted its current name of the University of the Cumberlands in 2005.
Dartmouth Big Green, formerly "Indians" which was disused since the 1970s in favor of an existing nickname, "Big Green".
Davis & Elkins Senators, formerly the "Scarlet Hurricane"[24]
Dean Bulldogs, formerly the "Red Devils"
Detroit Mercy Titans, originally the "Tigers"; changed in 1919 or 1924, depending on the source. The school was then known as the University of Detroit, and the change was presumably made to avoid confusion with Major League Baseball's Detroit Tigers. While the school became the University of Detroit Mercy after a 1990 merger, the "Mercy" name was not added to the athletic branding until 2017.
Dickinson State Blue Hawks, changed from "Savages" in 1972
Dixie State Trailblazers, changed from "Rebels" to "Red Storm" in 2009, and "Trailblazers" in 2016
Duke Blue Devils, changed from "Blue and White" in 1923
D'Youville Saints, changed from "Spartans" in 2020[31]
East Carolina Pirates, changed from the "Teachers" in 1934.[32] The school was a teachers college until the 1940s.
Eastern Michigan Eagles, changed from the "Hurons" (1929–1991) due to pressure from the Michigan Department of Civil Rights; the teams had previously been known as the "Normalites" and the "Men from Ypsi".[33]
Eastern Nazarene Lions, changed from the "Crusaders" in 2009
Eastern Washington Eagles, changed from "Savages" in 1973
Elon Phoenix, formerly the "Fighting Christians"
Endicott Gulls, formerly the "Power Gulls"
FIU Panthers, changed from "Sunblazers" to "Golden Panthers" in 1987[34] and "Panthers" in 2010.
Fort Lewis Skyhawks, known first as the "Beavers", changed to "Aggies" in the early 1930s, changed to "Raiders" in 1963, and adopted current nickname in 1994
Furman Paladins, football team changed from "Hurricane" in 1961, baseball team changed from "Hornets" in 1961, basketball team has been "Paladins" all along.[35]
George Washington Colonials, changed from "Hatchetites" in 1928
Georgia Southern Eagles, formerly the Blue Tide (1924–1941) and Professors (1941–1959)
Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets, "Yellowjackets" (as one word) first came into use after it appeared in the Atlanta Constitution in 1905; other nicknames included "Techs" (discontinued c. 1910), "Engineers", "Blacksmiths" (1902–1904), and "Golden Tornado" (1917–1929)[36]
Hampton Pirates and Lady Pirates, known as the "Seasiders" from 1916 to 1932[24]
Hanover Panthers, formerly the "Hilltoppers"[24]
Hawaii Rainbow Warriors and Rainbow Wahine, known as "Fighting Deans" before 1923; the school's nickname was "Rainbows" from 1923 through 2000,[37] when the university allowed all of its athletic teams to adopt their own individual nicknames: the baseball team retained the "Rainbows" nickname; the men's basketball, swimming and diving, and tennis teams adopted "Rainbow Warriors"; the football, men's golf, and men's volleyball teams adopted "Warriors"; and all women's teams adopted the nickname "Rainbow Wahine". In 2013, the university announced that all men's teams would become "Rainbow Warriors" effective with the start of the 2013–14 school year. In one more recently added women's sport, beach volleyball, the official nickname remains "Rainbow Wahine", but that team has mostly deprecated it in favor of "SandBows".
Hawaii Pacific Sharks, changed from "Sea Warriors" in 2014
Hillsdale Chargers, changed from "Dales" in 1968[38]
Hofstra Pride, formerly the "Flying Dutchmen"
Huron Screaming Eagles, known as the "Scalpers", which was unofficially dropped in 1973; the "Tribe" then came into usage, was officially adopted in 1975, and remained until about 1997[39]
Husson Eagles, formerly the "Braves"
Ithaca Bombers, formerly the "Blue Team", "Blues", "Blue and Gold", "Collegians" and "Seneca Streeters." The name was changed to the "Cayugas" by a student vote in 1937. The origin of the nickname "Bombers" is unclear, but the first known reference was in a December 17, 1938 issue of the Rochester Times-Union article on the basketball team. Some faculty have expressed reservations of the current nickname's martial connotations.[40]
IUP Crimson Hawks, changed from the "Indians" in 2006
IUPUI Jaguars, changed from the "Metros" in 1997 upon moving to NCAA Division I.
Iowa State Cyclones, changed from "Cardinals" in 1895[41]
Johnson Royals, changed from the "Preachers" and "Lady Evangels" to the "Royals" in 2013[42]
Juniata Eagles, changed from "Indians" in 1994[43]
Kansas City Roos – As part of the 2019 rebranding of the University of Missouri–Kansas City athletic program from "UMKC" to "Kansas City", the nickname was shortened from the historic "Kangaroos" to "Roos" (which had been in use alongside "Kangaroos" for many years).[44] Only the athletic program was rebranded; the university name remains unchanged, and "UMKC" is still used for academic branding purposes.
Kansas State Wildcats, changed from the "Aggies" and the "Farmers" in 1915, before reverting to the old nicknames that same year, when the school was known as the Kansas State Agricultural College. It was changed permanently in 1920.[45] The school changed its name to Kansas State University later.

More:

Kent State Golden Flashes, changed from the "Silver Foxes" in 1927[46]
Kentucky Wildcats, formerly "Blue and White" through 1909
Keuka Wolves, known as the "Storm" until 2014 and as the "Wolfpack" from 2014 to 2016, a nickname changed upon threat of legal action from North Carolina State University[47]
Knox Prairie Fire, known as the "Old Siwash" or "Siwash" until 1993[48]
Lander Bearcats, formerly the "Senators"
Lehigh Mountain Hawks, changed from the "Engineers" in 1995; also previously known as the "Brown and White"
Lincoln Christian Red Lions, formerly "Preachers" (men) and "Angels" (women).
Long Beach State Beach (or "The Beach"), officially known as 49ers before 2020–21, although the school had been transitioning to "The Beach" for several years. The baseball team continues to use Dirtbags.
Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns, changed from the "Bulldogs" to Raging Cajuns in the early 1960s. The "g" was dropped from the end of the first word later.[49]
Louisiana–Monroe Warhawks, changed from the "Indians" in 2006
Loyola Ramblers, changed from "Grandees" around 1926; the earlier nickname was selected in a contest held by the student newspaper but failed to catch on.[50]
Maranatha Baptist Sabercats – Changed from "Crusaders" in 2014.
Marquette Golden Eagles, changed from the "Warriors" in 1994, which had been used at least since 1960. Earlier nicknames included "Hilltoppers" and "Avalanche".
Marshall Thundering Herd, made official in the mid-1960s, although it was in unofficial use since the 1930s alongside the nickname the "Big Green".[51]
Maryland Terrapins, made official in 1932,[52] although in unofficial use earlier;[53] formerly the "Old Liners", and before that, the "Aggies" and "Farmers" when the school was known as Maryland Agricultural College.[54]
Maryville Scots, formerly the "Highlanders"[24]
MCLA Trailblazers, formerly the "Mohawks"
McMurry War Hawks, known as the "Indians" until that nickname was dropped in 2006[55]
Memphis Tigers, originally adopted in 1915 when the school was known as the West Tennessee State Normal School, but changed to "Teachers" and "Tutors" when the school name was changed to West Tennessee State Teachers College. In 1939, the Tigers nickname was reintroduced. The school later changed its name to Memphis State College and then the University of Memphis.
Miami RedHawks, changed from the "Redskins" in 1997, the team had previously been known as the "Big Reds", the "Reds and Whites", the "Red-Skinned Warriors", and the "Miami Boys".[56]
Michigan State Spartans, changed from "Aggies" in 1925, which had been used contemporaneously with the unofficial nicknames of the "Fighting Farmers" and "Farmers".[57]
Middle Tennessee Blue Raiders, adopted in 1934 to replace a "wide range of names"[58]
Midwestern State Mustangs, formerly the "Indians"
Milwaukee Panthers, changed from "Cardinals" in 1964, when the school was branded athletically as "Wisconsin–Milwaukee". There was an earlier nickname change, but that coincided with a merger that resulted in a change of the school name. For that change, see below.
Minnesota State Mavericks, changed from "Indians" on July 1, 1977, when the school was known as "Mankato State".[59]
Mississippi State Bulldogs, changed from "Maroons" in 1961, they were known as the "Aggies" under the school changed its name from Mississippi A&M in 1932.[60]
Montclair State Red Hawks, changed from "Indians" in 1989[61]
Morningside Mustangs, changed from "Chiefs" in 1998; known as the "Maroons" from about 1910 until the late 1950s[62]
Multnomah Lions, formerly the "Ambassadors"
Nebraska Cornhuskers, adopted in 1900, the teams had formerly been known as the "Antelopes", "Bugeaters", "Old Gold Knights", "Rattlesnake Boys", and "Treeplanters"
Nebraska Wesleyan Prairie Wolves, changed from the "Plainsmen" in 2000[63]
Nevada Wolf Pack, adopted in 1923, they had previously been known as the "Sagebrushers" and "Sage Hens"[64]
Newberry Wolves, adopted in 2010 to replace "Indians", which had been dropped two years earlier. The teams had competed without a nickname in the interim.[65]
North Carolina State Wolfpack, adopted in 1922, previous nicknames had included the "Aggies", "Farmers", "Techs", and "Red Terrors"[66]
North Dakota Fighting Hawks – First known as the "Flickertails" until 1930, at which time "Fighting Sioux" was adopted.[67] After major controversy over this nickname in the early 21st century, "Fighting Sioux" was retired in 2012. The school then went without a nickname for three years, as the state passed a law prohibiting the selection of a new nickname until 2015. In November of that year, following two rounds of fan voting, a new nickname of "Fighting Hawks" was chosen and immediately adopted.
North Georgia Saints and Lady Saints — The first sports teams at what was then North Georgia College & State University were men's teams known as "Cadets", a nod to the school's status as a senior military college. When basketball became the first women's sport, that team was initially known as the "Golddiggers", referencing the school's location in the old gold-mining town of Dahlonega. By the late 1970s, the athletic program had settled on "Saints" and "Lady Saints". NGCSU no longer exists under that name, as it was merged into the University of North Georgia in 2013 with the new nickname of "Nighthawks" (see below).
North Greenville Crusaders, formerly the "Mounties"
North Texas Mean Green, formerly known as the "Eagles" (1922–1966), there are conflicting accounts on the origin of the nickname.[68][69]
Northeastern State RiverHawks, dropped Redmen in May 2006, adopted RiverHawks on November 14, 2006
Northern Illinois Huskies, adopted in 1940, previous names had included "Cardinals", "Evansmen", "Northerners", "Profs", and "Teachers"[70]
Northwest Christian Beacons, formerly the "Crusaders"
Northwestern Wildcats, changed from the "Purple" in 1924[71]
Notre Dame Fighting Irish, officially adopted in 1927, although it had been in use much earlier. Other nicknames included the "Catholics" in the 1880s and 1890s, and the "Ramblers" in the 1920s.[72]
Ohio Bobcats, replaced the "Green and White" in 1925[73]
Oklahoma Sooners, replaced the "Rough Riders" and "Boomers" in 1908[74]
Oklahoma City Stars, formerly "Goldbugs" prior to 1946 and the "Chiefs" thereafter[75]
Oklahoma State Cowboys and Cowgirls — Oklahoma A&M used the nickname of the "Agriculturalists" in the 1890s, which was shortened to "Aggies" and "Farmers". "Tigers" was briefly used as well, but proved unpopular. In 1924, the media began referring to the teams as the "Cowboys" and it was later officially adopted.[76]
Ole Miss Rebels, changed from the "Flood" in 1935 because of the negative association with natural disasters, most notably the 1927 flood that devastated the state's Delta region.[77]
Omaha Mavericks, adopted in the summer of 1971, previously known as "Indians" from 1939 to 1971 and "Cardinals" before 1939.
Oral Roberts Golden Eagles, formerly the "Titans"
Oregon Ducks, formerly the "Webfoots." "Ducks" introduced in the 1940s and nicknames were used interchangeably until the 1970s; "Ducks" officially adopted in 1978.[78][79]
Oregon State Beavers, previously known as the "Aggies" and then the "Orangemen". The yearbook was named The Beaver in 1916, which later led to the athletics teams' adoption of the nickname.[80]
Pacific Lutheran Lutes, formerly the "Gladiators"
Presbyterian Blue Hose — Officially changed from "Blue Stockings" c. 1954, though sportswriters had used "Hose" interchangeably with "Stockings" since the turn of the 20th century.[81]
Quinnipiac Bobcats, changed from the "Braves" in 2002
RPI Engineers, formerly the "Bachelors" and, from 1995 to 2009, the "Red Hawks"
Richmond Spiders, changed from the "Colts" in 1894.[82]
Rio Grande RedStorm, changed from the "Redmen" and "Redwomen" in 2008.
Ripon Red Hawks, changed from "Redmen" in 1994[83][84]
Rutgers Scarlet Knights, changed from the "Queensmen" in 1955[85]
St. Bonaventure Bonnies, changed from the "Brown Indians" and "Brown Squaws" in 1979
St. John's Red Storm, changed from the "Redmen" in 1995 for gender and cultural considerations. The university claims the old name did not refer to American Indians, but to the school color, a bright cardinal red.
Saint Leo Lions, formerly the "Monarchs"
Saint Mary's Cardinals, changed from "Redmen" during the 1989–90 season
San Diego State Aztecs, replaced the "Staters" and "Professors" in 1925[86]
San Jose State Spartans, adopted in 1925; prior nicknames included the "Daniels", the "Teachers", the "Pedagogues", the "Normals", and the "Normalites"
Santa Clara Broncos, adopted in 1923; prior nicknames included the "Missionites", the "Prunepickers", the "Friars", the "Missions", and the "Padres"[87] The school changed its name from the "University of Santa Clara" to "Santa Clara University" in 1985.[88]
Seattle Redhawks, formerly the "Chieftains"
Seton Hill Griffins, formerly the "Spirit"
Simpson Storm, changed from the "Redmen and Lady Reds" in 1992
Sioux Falls Cougars, changed from "Braves" in 1978[89]
Sonoma State Seawolves, changed from "Cossacks" in 1978
Southeast Missouri State Redhawks, known as the "Indians" and "Otahkians" before 2004[90]
Southeastern Oklahoma State Savage Storm, changed from "Savages" in 2006
Southeastern Fire, formerly the "Crusaders"
South Florida Bulls, shortened from "Brahman Bulls" in the mid-1980s[91]
Southern Miss Golden Eagles, adopted in 1972, the school had several previous nicknames,[92] including "Normalites", "Yellow Jackets", "Confederates", and "Southerners"
Southwestern Christian Eagles, formerly the "Moundbuilders"
Southern Illinois Salukis, formerly known at the "Maroons" from 1913 to 1951[93]
Southern Nazarene Crimson Storm, formerly the "Redskins"
Spalding Golden Eagles, formerly the "Pelicans"
Springfield Pride, changed from "Chiefs" in 1996[94]
Susquehanna River Hawks, changed from "Crusaders" in 2016[95]
Stanford Cardinal, adopted in 1981, formerly known as the "Indians" (1930–1972) and the plural "Cardinals" (1972–1981)[96]
Stonehill Skyhawks, changed from the "Chieftains"
Stony Brook Seawolves, adopted in 1994; previously known as "Soundmen" or "Baymen" (1950s), Warriors (1960–1966), and "Patriots"/"Lady Patriots" (1966–1994)[97]
SUNY Canton Kangaroos, formerly the "Northmen" and "Northstars"
Syracuse Orange, changed from the "Orangemen" and "Orangewomen" in 2004
Tennessee at Chattanooga Mocs, changed from Moccasins in 1997.
Texas Tech Red Raiders, changed from "Matadors" (1925–1932), which had been inspired by the campus's Spanish architecture.[98]
Toledo Rockets, adopted in 1923 by sportswriters who shortened it from "Skyrockets", coined by a student in the press box for a football game. Writers had previously called the football team the "Blue and Gold" and "Munies".[99]
Troy Trojans, reverted from "Red Wave" in 1973. Troy had been known as first the Bulldogs" and then the "Teachers" between 1909 and 1920, the "Trojans" from 1920 to 1931, and the "Red Wave" from 1931 to 1973.[100]
Tulane Green Wave, known as the "Olive and Blue" from 1893 to 1919, and referred to as the "Greenbacks" by the student-run The Tulane Weekly in 1919. Became known as the "Green Wave" from 1920 after the song "The Rolling Green Wave" published in the Tulane Hullabaloo.[101]
Tulsa Golden Hurricane, adopted in 1922, formerly known as the "Orange and Black", "Kendallites", "Presbyterians", "Tigers", "Tulsans", and "Yellow Jackets".[102]
UCLA Bruins, adopted in 1928, formerly known as the "Cubs" until 1923, in reference to the school's connection to the University of California Golden Bears. Known as the "Grizzlies" from 1923 until 1928, when UCLA joined the Pacific Coast Conference, which already included the Montana Grizzlies.[103]
UC Santa Barbara Gauchos, changed in 1936 from Roadrunners. Football coach Theodore "Spud" Harder requested a new name when he took over in 1934. A student vote settled on "Gauchos" in 1936, based on the 1927 film The Gaucho[104])
UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs, changed in 1986 by student referendum from "Sea Lions", which had been used since the school began sponsoring NCAA athletics in 1981.[105]
UConn Huskies, officially adopted as the nickname in 1934; they had previous been unofficially known as the "Aggies" and the "Statesmen".[106] "UConn", long used as a short form for the school's formal name of "University of Connecticut", became the official athletic brand in 2013–14.
UMass Minutemen, changed from the "Redmen" and "Redwomen" in 1972. According to the university, the old nickname referred to the uniforms worn by the athletic teams, but it was changed nonetheless out of sensitivity to American Indians.
USC Trojans, replaced the "Methodists" and "Wesleyans" in 1912[107]
USP Devils, formerly the "Red Devils"
UT Martin Skyhawks, changed from "Pacers" in 1995
Utah Utes, formerly used "Redskins" nickname simultaneously with "Utes" nickname but discontinued using "Redskins" in 1972[108]
UVA–Wise Cavaliers – Formerly nicknamed "Highland Cavaliers"; dropped "Highland" in 2017.
VCU Rams – The "Rams" nickname was inherited from Richmond Professional Institute, one of the two institutions that merged in 1968 to form the current Virginia Commonwealth University. From 1948 to 1963, RPI's nickname was "Green Devils", reflecting the school's affiliation with The College of William & Mary. RPI and several other institutions were separated from W&M in 1962, and RPI adopted "Rams" a year later.
Virginia Tech Hokies, gradually transitioned from the original nickname of the "Fighting Gobblers"
Washington Huskies, adopted February 3, 1922; formerly the "Sun Dodgers" (1919–1921) and very briefly the "Vikings" in December 1921[109]
Wayne State Warriors, known as the "Tartars" from 1927 to 1999
Western Michigan Broncos, changed from "Hilltoppers" in 1939
Westminster Griffins, formerly the "Parsons"
Wheaton Thunder, changed from "Crusaders" in 2000[110]
Widener Pride, changed from "Pioneers" in 2006
William & Mary Tribe, formerly the "Indians" (1917–1977) and "Orange and White" (1893–1916)

Quote from: 78crusader on February 12, 2021, 09:40:25 AM
I think the survey was simply an exercise to provide cover for the administration when it decided to announce (the preordained) decision to jettison the Crusader name.  Similarly, I suspect the decision was announced by the Interim President in order to provide cover for the incoming President ("Hey, the decision was made before I officially assumed the office of the President").  I don't believe for a second that this decision was not blessed by the new President. 

This unwise move by the University has made the work of our Athletics Department employees, every one of whom is a fine person, that much harder.

Paul

Quote from: valpopal on January 12, 2021, 06:33:18 PM (https://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2816.msg129093#msg129093)Have others received an email from the university sent to the Valpo community with a survey to complete about calls for removing the Crusader mascot and nickname? The survey certainly exhibits a lack of objectivity or neutrality. Given the introduction to the survey and the wording or options in some of the questions, it clearly appears the intent is to dispose of the Crusader. For example, one question asks if you consider yourself "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader"; however, you cannot be both.


As noted at the time of the survey, it was deceptively designed to obtain a specific end, forcing respondents to choose between "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader," but not allowing both. Apparently, the Chicago Tribune has seen some results of the survey, and the leaked information is that the push poll questions got the results VU wanted: "Neither the email nor a university press release on the decision discloses whether the task force produced a report on its findings and recommendations, or whether Valparaiso will publish the 7,700 survey responses in some form. Its website does not bring up such materials in a search for 'crusader task force.' The Chicago Tribune has apparently seen at least some survey results, reporting that more than 80 percent of responses 'identified Valparaiso as the university's dominant brand,' with the Crusader drawing only 2.5 percent." https://www.thecollegefix.com/christian-university-ditches-crusader-mascot-because-of-association-with-hate-groups/ (https://www.thecollegefix.com/christian-university-ditches-crusader-mascot-because-of-association-with-hate-groups/)

Wait...So we aren't the only school to make a change?  Shocking.

Some of those changes are hysterical but the one that caught my eye was Akron, changing from "The Zippers" to the "Zips"   :rotfl:

Quote from: valpopal on February 12, 2021, 09:56:54 AMApparently, the Chicago Tribune has seen some results of the survey, and the leaked information is that the push poll questions got the results VU wanted: "Neither the email nor a university press release on the decision discloses whether the task force produced a report on its findings and recommendations, or whether Valparaiso will publish the 7,700 survey responses in some form. Its website does not bring up such materials in a search for 'crusader task force.' The Chicago Tribune has apparently seen at least some survey results, reporting that more than 80 percent of responses 'identified Valparaiso as the university's dominant brand,' with the Crusader drawing only 2.5 percent."

They certainly aren't doing themselves any favors by leaking info to the press but not releasing the survey results.

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 12, 2021, 07:20:24 AMJD24 - how was my response offensive?

I imagine he was making a self-deprecating joke

Change is hard.  Removing the symbol of our university and allowing it to come between fans and how we define ourselves is difficult.  We have seen numerous institutions go down this same road before us as listed below.  The allegiance to our mighty Crusader must now live on in our hearts and memories.  For some it will be difficult to let go others will welcome a fresh start with a new identity.  As long as we stick together Valpo will be fine!

when getting rid of the mascot, you may have to get rid of the shield logo. If so, not you need to hire a consulting company who know how develop and get agreement a logo and the mascot. If you want to do it, you cannot do it internally. That is huge dollars!!!! Guess we will see if it is worth it.

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 12, 2021, 01:35:57 PM
when getting rid of the mascot, you may have to get rid of the shield logo. If so, not you need to hire a consulting company who know how develop and get agreement a logo and the mascot. If you want to do it, you cannot do it internally. That is huge dollars!!!! Guess we will see if it is worth it.

They spent a bunch developing the Shield when Heckler took over.  They just have to find a way to justify keeping the Shield otherwise I will lose my mind.

I've got it!  Seriously, why not change the name to then "Golden Knights"?  Central Florida are the Black Knights I think and Rutgers also are Knights.  Nothing needs to change, we could even keep the current mascot uniform.  Could it possibly be that simple?

Quote from: wh on February 11, 2021, 02:29:15 PM

Quote from: may know on February 11, 2021, 11:14:21 AM
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/1359903254147129344

Now I'm confused. Is "retiring the Crusader mascot over the coming months" the same as "changing the Crusader nickname?" If it is, it's certainly a strange way of saying it. The Crusader mascot and the Crusader nickname are related but different. The mascot is a symbol. There are examples where universities changed their mascot but retained their nickname.

Good question.  Illinois eliminated their mascot Chief Illiniwek but kept the nickname Illini.

I heard that there is discussion that University of Illinois will become the "Belted Kingfisher"
https://dailyillini.com/news/2020/09/22/university-senate-endorses-kingfisher-mascot-in-landslide-vote/

???

I am fed up with this academic , holier than thou attitude.  This change is ridiculous, especially at a time when money and finances are a problem.  These type of changes do not come cheap.  It is about time somebody had some balls to talk back against some of this re-do everything attitude of a few self-proclaimed do-gooders. Poor little kids..did somebody get offended?  Awww...we are so sorry.  Interim or permanent  President, this thing stinks.  And someone had the guts to send out a survey to cover their fannies on the change.  And as has been stated earlier, we will never see the actual results.  Come on Valpo, I thought we were better than this.

I found these comments in the Northwest Indiana Times to be quite interesting. Obviously, Adam is in a unique position to comment in that he is: a national figure, a Muslim, an alum who passionately supports Valpo, and someone with a close association with Valpo sports.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Valparaiso alum and Chicago Bulls television play-by-play announcer Adam Amin is Muslim and he got his broadcasting career started by calling games for the Crusaders when he attended Valparaiso from 2005-09. He later worked for the university and called basketball games on the Horizon League Network before moving to ESPN and Fox Sports.

"I had a positive reaction to the news today, but then I had to ask myself why I had that reaction," Amin said. "When I signed up to go to Valpo, I knew what the mascot was. I also knew what the Crusades were and I was well aware of the history involved. I didn't think this university chose the mascot, goofy looking as it was, out of some level of malice.

"What I think now, observing the reaction that everyone is having, is it all depends on how important symbolism is to you. If the university is what it is because of the people that work there and the students that go there, then what does it matter what the mascot is? If the symbol that happens to represent the university makes people feel some sort of negative cognition, then change it. What's the problem with changing it?"

------------------------------------------------------------------

I am hopeful that people across the spectrum of views remember the words highlighted in bold.

Again, I will be monitoring the university's public stance on various hot topics within society, as we move to the new President.  If I see a continued lean towards more of a far left university, akin to a Loyola (IL), I have no interest in providing donations to such a university.  If the university maintains its previous stance of doing good for the community, providing a quality education, and not opining into contentious political topics at a time when the country is very evenly divided on such a thing, I will consider resuming my donations. 

If you change the mascot, change the colors. someone would need to get a life if they get upset over that.

There's a lot of attachment to Crusaders, but I'd be surprised if there's any attachment to Brown & Gold. Brown & Gold might be the least pleasing color scheme aesthetically. May as well fix the colors as we've already gone this far.

People advocating against Brown and Gold are the real monsters in this situation.

Dakich has some insider news

https://twitter.com/dandakich/status/1360299364044976135?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm fascinated as to who Dakich's source is here. I'd like to think that I know of most of the "most popular alumni," and I can't come up with who is on that list that would be married to another athlete from VU. I've been trying to wrap my head around this all day and I just can't come up with it.

Quote from: Pgmado on February 12, 2021, 09:32:43 PM
I'm fascinated as to who Dakich's source is here. I'd like to think that I know of most of the "most popular alumni," and I can't come up with who is on that list that would be married to another athlete from VU. I've been trying to wrap my head around this all day and I just can't come up with it.

Aren't you a reporter? Why are you asking us?

Why do I feel I have a call coming soon from Vu on donating to support the new mascot change.

None of my alumni networks that I talk to are liking this.  None of them. 

They are still pissed big time about the law school, the poor leadership the last few years, and now this.  It seems like bad decision after bad decision.  If this new president doesn't succeed the school is F'd long term.  A small funded overpriced college with a poor reputation will not last long

As many said, they could have imaged and defined what today's crusader is.

Quote from: Pgmado on February 12, 2021, 09:32:43 PM
I'm fascinated as to who Dakich's source is here. I'd like to think that I know of most of the "most popular alumni," and I can't come up with who is on that list that would be married to another athlete from VU. I've been trying to wrap my head around this all day and I just can't come up with it.

I have no guesses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

QuoteWhy do I feel I have a call coming soon from Vu on donating to support the new mascot change. ]None of my alumni networks that I talk to are liking this.  None of them. They are still pissed big time about the law school, the poor leadership the last few years, and now this.  It seems like bad decision after bad decision.  If this new president doesn't succeed the school is F'd long term.  A small funded overpriced college with a poor reputation will not last long. 

I agree with all this, but bad reputation? 

I Probably should have used a different word okla. I agree with you. you are right they still have a good reputation but poor communication and transparency like this doesn't help.

Is it too soon to start a new thread on renovating the ARC.....  ;D

I love the fact that Valpo ranked higher than Oklahoma State University and University of Arkansas in the US Newsweek magazine.  I let my coworkers and family know on the regular.  Now, if Oklahoma University will start accurately reporting I'm sure Valpo will pass them too. 

You guys should do a total fakeout and go the other way with the Christian name. You know why?

Nobody expects the Valparaiso Inquisition.

Quote from: a3uge on February 12, 2021, 09:38:27 PM

Quote from: Pgmado on February 12, 2021, 09:32:43 PM
I'm fascinated as to who Dakich's source is here. I'd like to think that I know of most of the "most popular alumni," and I can't come up with who is on that list that would be married to another athlete from VU. I've been trying to wrap my head around this all day and I just can't come up with it.

Aren't you a reporter? Why are you asking us?

Oh, I've been trying to figure it out all day. Reporters look everywhere. Even message boards.

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 12, 2021, 07:20:24 AMJD24 - how was my response offensive?

It wasn't at all. It was a joke that sounded better in my head than it read in my response  :(

As noted by another poster...making fun of myself.

Quote from: vu72 on February 12, 2021, 02:41:20 PMI've got it!  Seriously, why not change the name to then "Golden Knights"?  Central Florida are the Black Knights I think and Rutgers also are Knights.  Nothing needs to change, we could even keep the current mascot uniform.  Could it possibly be that simple?

UCF was the Golden Knights until about 15 years ago when they dropped the Golden. Army is still the Black Knights I think.

Quote from: covufan on February 12, 2021, 08:42:44 PMDakich has some insider news https://twitter.com/dandakich/status/1360299364044976135?s=21 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dan Dakich could be 100% on the money here and it still wouldn't make me like him any more. The second quickest to click off for me after Dickie V.

Quote from: Pgmado on February 12, 2021, 11:31:05 PM

Quote from: a3uge on February 12, 2021, 09:38:27 PM

Quote from: Pgmado on February 12, 2021, 09:32:43 PM
I'm fascinated as to who Dakich's source is here. I'd like to think that I know of most of the "most popular alumni," and I can't come up with who is on that list that would be married to another athlete from VU. I've been trying to wrap my head around this all day and I just can't come up with it.

Aren't you a reporter? Why are you asking us?

Oh, I've been trying to figure it out all day. Reporters look everywhere. Even message boards.

I didn't get the survey, either.  I open any email that is Valpo-tied, and wouldn't have missed such a thing.  I am curious if there were many athletes left off?

" LaBarbera estimates that the entire rebranding could cost the university "hundreds and thousands of dollars when it's all said and done."

Rest assured those that stirred this pot won't contribute a dollar to cover the cost. Interminably offended people operate at the bottom of workplace, not the top. Typically, they don't have 2 nickels to rub together.

Extremely disappointed and embarrassed to see the University give in to this.  This nickname change has no just cause to anyone outside the tiny fraction of population inclined to fixate on any remotely possible offense (and then those individuals who, once the idea is planted, jump on board via power of suggestion and/or fear of insensitivity).

Transparency of the survey results doesn't matter since the approach was obviously biased and had nothing to do with generating serious insights.

The fact that such a significant decision was levied a mere month after distributing the survey -- and preposterously worse, carried out by an Interim University President during a fleeting 7 month temporary stint (and just 2 weeks before officially transitioning to the President-Elect!?) -- just adds to the dirty pool and cowardice.

But overall, it's a principle thing for me.  A major action like this, done purely for political correctness, represents a critical incongruence between the institution's values/views/priorities and my own.  The writing's on the wall now more than ever.  So, I'll no longer be donating to VU.  I'm not helping pay for this nickname change and supporting the misguided leadership behind it.

$600K shortfall... Serious facility upgrades needed for us to even get up to speed with our peers... And NOW we need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a rebrand... Even if I support the spirit behind this, this is bad and sends the wrong message about the future president's commitment to athletics.... Methinks we'd better appreciate what we had under the Drews because that's as good as it's going to be for a long time... Possibly ever... Thank God we at least got into the MVC before the bottom fell out, but too bad we're probably not going to be able to muster the institutional commitment necessary to succeed at this level. I shouldn't be surprised and truthfully I'm not but I AM disappointed that we don't have money for what we need and have needed for decades facilities wise but we're doing this right now when the department and the university at large is already hurting for cash... There is such a thing as making the right move at the wrong time... I hope this helps recruiting and attracting more students but as with any Christian school any shift away from that identity could upset and alienate as many as it attracts... I love this University and I want the best for it so I hope this works out but as I said it feels like at best the right move at the wrong time...

Quote from: Chairback on February 12, 2021, 09:44:07 PMNone of my alumni networks that I talk to are liking this.  None of them. 

I find this interesting and an indication of how we have narrowed circles to those with whom we agree.  Every alum with whom I have talked -- spanning six decades- support the decision (including my daughter who excitedly reported the news).  It is only on this forum that I have contact with people who want to cling to the Crusader image.

BTW, if the change makes it more likely that fifteen full-pay students choose Valpo, that would cover any cost.

Lately in business, , the word I keep hearing about but not being applyied is transparency. People are patting themselves on the back for being transparent but their actions are the opposite. It is disabling trust and that is going to backfire in the long term.

Humbleopinion - when Stephen F. Austin State University hired a marketing company to change their logo, it cost 1.6 million dollars. After expenses, you would have to have a delta of more like 50 students going 4 years to cover on this expense.

Improve the overall quality and experience of the university and the finances, enrollment and status will improve. Changing the mascot name will have negligible impact in the near and long term.

Valparaiso is not focused on the right issues.

So there's no costs associated with each additional student... It's 100% profit to the university?

Quote from: JD24 on February 12, 2021, 11:54:41 PM

Quote from: vu72 on February 12, 2021, 02:41:20 PMI've got it!  Seriously, why not change the name to then "Golden Knights"?  Central Florida are the Black Knights I think and Rutgers also are Knights.  Nothing needs to change, we could even keep the current mascot uniform.  Could it possibly be that simple?

UCF was the Golden Knights until about 15 years ago when they dropped the Golden. Army is still the Black Knights I think.

The Vegas hockey team is the Golden Knights.  It is perfect!  And don't even think about changing the colors.  It is part of our history--look it up as to why thy are our colors-- and beyond that they are unique.  Nevada, Lehigh and St Bonnie for sure but probably others.  The brown uniforms are killer.  What the heck do you want? Maybe the Blue and White bulldogs? 

How about the Knights that Say "Née" and have a shrubbery in the backdrop of the basketball court, and Lottich can flop his herring at the refs?

Quote from: rink on February 13, 2021, 01:19:10 AM
Extremely disappointed and embarrassed to see the University give in to this.  This nickname change has no just cause to anyone outside the tiny fraction of population inclined to fixate on any remotely possible offense (and then those individuals who, once the idea is planted, jump on board via power of suggestion and/or fear of insensitivity).

Transparency of the survey results doesn't matter since the approach was obviously biased and had nothing to do with generating serious insights.

The fact that such a significant decision was levied a mere month after distributing the survey -- and preposterously worse, carried out by an Interim University President during a fleeting 7 month temporary stint (and just 2 weeks before officially transitioning to the President-Elect!?) -- just adds to the dirty pool and cowardice.

But overall, it's a principle thing for me.  A major action like this, done purely for political correctness, represents a critical incongruence between the institution's values/views/priorities and my own.  The writing's on the wall now more than ever.  So, I'll no longer be donating to VU.  I'm not helping pay for this nickname change and supporting the misguided leadership behind it.

I agree, and the real problem with this issue that I have heard from many goes beyond the actual mascot. What is more hurtful or damaging for VU fans and alumni is the process that has not been perceived as honest or transparent at any point. For years the university has worked behind the scenes toward removal of the Crusader but denied they were doing so. When its image began disappearing from banners, websites, uniforms, facilities, communiques, and elsewhere, the university disputed any intent to dispose of the Crusader. When the popular inflatable Crusader was removed from the ARC, a phony story about it wearing out was offered to fans as the reason. The survey that gave cover to this week's action was a push poll with biased wording toward a predetermined outcome that asked respondents to choose between being "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader," and when it was distributed a number of alums did not receive it, including former athletes. Nevertheless, the results remained secret and no comprehensive study was conducted or revealed because it was just for show. Despite the ongoing transitional presence of Heckler and the named new president already on board, the decision was announced just a couple weeks before her leaving by an interim president, who looked like she was speaking in a hostage video and was accompanied by a student who is a political activist and pushed for the removal of the crusader. At no stage of the process were alumni and fans treated with respect and given transparency. The mascot may be changed but unfortunately the harm to university relations with many fans and alumni will linger.   

Quote from: valpopal on February 11, 2021, 06:44:48 PM

Quote from: valpopal on February 11, 2021, 02:55:12 PM
This from a sports reporter:


[tweet]1359968399397429255[/tweet]

I can't wait until the next televised home game when the players run back and forth across the Crusader logo at half-court yet the announcers are forbidden to say "Crusader"—it will be like the line from an old Marx Brothers movie: "Well, who ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes?"

Check the current story at the Athletics website announcing wins by the bowling team. The article purposely avoids mentioning any use of the term "Crusader"; the team is referenced as "the Brown and Gold" instead, although the host team is identified by their nickname, "the Flyers." However, the accompanying photo shows the VU bowlers, who obviously haven't received new uniforms, wearing large images of the Crusader on their jerseys.
https://www.valpoathletics.com/wbowling/news/2020-21/20166/bowling-earns-trio-of-wins-on-first-day-at-flyer-classic/ (https://www.valpoathletics.com/wbowling/news/2020-21/20166/bowling-earns-trio-of-wins-on-first-day-at-flyer-classic/)


Oops!  ;D

Quote from: humbleopinion on February 13, 2021, 05:47:52 AM
BTW, if the change makes it more likely that fifteen full-pay students choose Valpo, that would cover any cost.

The university is bleeding red and only a week ago started a fundraising campaign for an athletic department that is bleeding red. Student enrollment at traditional 4 year Midwest universities is in a tailspin.  If any actual data existed to support that "the Crusader" is alienating prospective students, it would have been presented right up front in all caps. Obviously, that's not the case. Thus, if it hasn't cause a decline in students, changing it won't generate an increase.

Responsible organizations in a declining market don't theorize break even scenarios based on illogical best case scenarios.

Quote from: valpopal on February 13, 2021, 09:43:35 AM

Quote from: rink on February 13, 2021, 01:19:10 AM
Extremely disappointed and embarrassed to see the University give in to this.  This nickname change has no just cause to anyone outside the tiny fraction of population inclined to fixate on any remotely possible offense (and then those individuals who, once the idea is planted, jump on board via power of suggestion and/or fear of insensitivity).

Transparency of the survey results doesn't matter since the approach was obviously biased and had nothing to do with generating serious insights.

The fact that such a significant decision was levied a mere month after distributing the survey -- and preposterously worse, carried out by an Interim University President during a fleeting 7 month temporary stint (and just 2 weeks before officially transitioning to the President-Elect!?) -- just adds to the dirty pool and cowardice.

But overall, it's a principle thing for me.  A major action like this, done purely for political correctness, represents a critical incongruence between the institution's values/views/priorities and my own.  The writing's on the wall now more than ever.  So, I'll no longer be donating to VU.  I'm not helping pay for this nickname change and supporting the misguided leadership behind it.

I agree, and the real problem with this issue that I have heard from many goes beyond the actual mascot. What is more hurtful or damaging for VU fans and alumni is the process that has not been perceived as honest or transparent at any point. For years the university has worked behind the scenes toward removal of the Crusader but denied they were doing so. When its image began disappearing from banners, websites, uniforms, facilities, communiques, and elsewhere, the university disputed any intent to dispose of the Crusader. When the popular inflatable Crusader was removed from the ARC, a phony story about it wearing out was offered to fans as the reason. The survey that gave cover to this week's action was a push poll with biased wording toward a predetermined outcome that asked respondents to choose between being "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader," and when it was distributed a number of alums did not receive it, including former athletes. Nevertheless, the results remained secret and no comprehensive study was conducted or revealed because it was just for show. Despite the ongoing transitional presence of Heckler and the named new president already on board, the decision was announced just a couple weeks before her leaving by an interim president, who looked like she was speaking in a hostage video and was accompanied by a student who is a political activist and pushed for the removal of the crusader. At no stage of the process were alumni and fans treated with respect and given transparency. The mascot may be changed but unfortunately the harm to university relations with many fans and alumni will linger.   

Exactly, including the political activist SBP only hurt the process/announcement more, in my eyes.  If she was not included in an actual video snippet, alongside our Interim President, to parrot her leftist agenda, I would not be so bothered.  If they just wanted to indicate the student support behind the decision, great, put out a general statement of support from her in the news release.  Tying it in the way that they did to give her a prominent spot in the announcement to comment on it being 'offensive,' makes it seem like we are trying to become Loyola (IL), and kowtowing to the KKK, letting them own a word.

I think we all could see the writing on the wall that the days of the Crusader mascot were numbered - so much had been going that way already. It also was likely to happen in the presidential transition - unpopular changes like this happen under an interim or outgoing president and give the new president the ability to set a new course.

Because the Crusader imagery had already been limited, the costs to the university are much less. Of course there is the logo on the basketball court, yet that will change in time. I'd guess that the Valpo shield will be retained, possibly well into the future depending on the nature of the new mascot. Even then, the V with the flame could stay around.

A few additional points:

1) Our identity as a university is mostly in Valpo or Valparaiso U.  in In the day and age in which we live, like it or not, the name "Crusader" brings with it baggage on the part of the audience that is not necessary. Use and understanding of the word and imagery has changed over decades, and that is not a fault or blame of the University or even those who like the logo.

2) I strongly object to the "woke-ish" explanations that suggest the past choice of using Crusader was somehow done with intent to marginalize or to endorse violence. As has been pointed out many times, there are many positive expressions of being a crusader that have nothing to do with the crusades.

3) The so-called survey was clumsily designed with intent for one outcome, and the interim President should have more carefully checked that out before she allowed it to go out. That is why the University now has to be evasive with the results. In a benign context, it seems like alumni are far more likely to identify with Purdue vs. Boilermaker, or Duke vs. Blue Devil, or a host of similar comparisons. (I tried to think of a different example, and the closest one might be Indiana vs. Hoosiers but the latter is tied up to the nickname of the state.) So, we need to accept that the survey was flawed yet it got the desired result.

4)  It would be great for all who may speak on behalf of the University to be more sympathetic to the Crusader history. They can be supportive of the legacy by recognizing and embracing the positive expressions of being a crusader, and understanding of those who have an affinity for the nickname. They also can acknowledge how use of the word has changed. They also can show more excitement for the future.

I never received a survey.  Also never received anything when they were canceling the men's soccer program.  I also donate every year.....well until this year.

Quote from: oklahomamick on February 13, 2021, 01:30:32 PM
I never received a survey.  Also never received anything when they were canceling the men's soccer program.  I also donate every year.....well until this year.

Interesting.  I keep seeing/hearing this from other athletes, and also did not receive it on my end, but receive all other Valpo communications without issue. 

I think Valparaiso lost an opportunity to migrate from the perception of The Crusades to the more generalized crusaders (campaigns vigorously for) political, social, and religious change. The latter directly ties into Christian (Lutheran) reform. If these anti-Crusaders mascot discussions have been on campus for more than 20 years, the Valparaiso Administration really missed the opportunity to change the narrative. But, what can you expect from an administration that misplaced a whole law school.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: valpotx on February 13, 2021, 01:34:41 PM

Quote from: oklahomamick on February 13, 2021, 01:30:32 PM
I never received a survey.  Also never received anything when they were canceling the men's soccer program.  I also donate every year.....well until this year.

Interesting.  I keep seeing/hearing this from other athletes, and also did not receive it on my end, but receive all other Valpo communications without issue.

Quote from: Pgmado on February 12, 2021, 11:31:05 PM

Quote from: a3uge on February 12, 2021, 09:38:27 PM

Quote from: Pgmado on February 12, 2021, 09:32:43 PM
I'm fascinated as to who Dakich's source is here. I'd like to think that I know of most of the "most popular alumni," and I can't come up with who is on that list that would be married to another athlete from VU. I've been trying to wrap my head around this all day and I just can't come up with it.

Aren't you a reporter? Why are you asking us?

Oh, I've been trying to figure it out all day. Reporters look everywhere. Even message boards.

Found some alumni that didn't receive a survey. But I understand it's hard to find good sources on a fan message board.

Quote from: valpotx on February 13, 2021, 11:37:16 AM

Quote from: valpopal on February 13, 2021, 09:43:35 AM

Quote from: rink on February 13, 2021, 01:19:10 AMExtremely disappointed and embarrassed to see the University give in to this.  This nickname change has no just cause to anyone outside the tiny fraction of population inclined to fixate on any remotely possible offense (and then those individuals who, once the idea is planted, jump on board via power of suggestion and/or fear of insensitivity). Transparency of the survey results doesn't matter since the approach was obviously biased and had nothing to do with generating serious insights. The fact that such a significant decision was levied a mere month after distributing the survey -- and preposterously worse, carried out by an Interim University President during a fleeting 7 month temporary stint (and just 2 weeks before officially transitioning to the President-Elect!?) -- just adds to the dirty pool and cowardice. But overall, it's a principle thing for me.  A major action like this, done purely for political correctness, represents a critical incongruence between the institution's values/views/priorities and my own.  The writing's on the wall now more than ever.  So, I'll no longer be donating to VU.  I'm not helping pay for this nickname change and supporting the misguided leadership behind it.

I agree, and the real problem with this issue that I have heard from many goes beyond the actual mascot. What is more hurtful or damaging for VU fans and alumni is the process that has not been perceived as honest or transparent at any point. For years the university has worked behind the scenes toward removal of the Crusader but denied they were doing so. When its image began disappearing from banners, websites, uniforms, facilities, communiques, and elsewhere, the university disputed any intent to dispose of the Crusader. When the popular inflatable Crusader was removed from the ARC, a phony story about it wearing out was offered to fans as the reason. The survey that gave cover to this week's action was a push poll with biased wording toward a predetermined outcome that asked respondents to choose between being "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader," and when it was distributed a number of alums did not receive it, including former athletes. Nevertheless, the results remained secret and no comprehensive study was conducted or revealed because it was just for show. Despite the ongoing transitional presence of Heckler and the named new president already on board, the decision was announced just a couple weeks before her leaving by an interim president, who looked like she was speaking in a hostage video and was accompanied by a student who is a political activist and pushed for the removal of the crusader. At no stage of the process were alumni and fans treated with respect and given transparency. The mascot may be changed but unfortunately the harm to university relations with many fans and alumni will linger.

Exactly, including the political activist SBP only hurt the process/announcement more, in my eyes.  If she was not included in an actual video snippet, alongside our Interim President, to parrot her leftist agenda, I would not be so bothered.  If they just wanted to indicate the student support behind the decision, great, put out a general statement of support from her in the news release.  Tying it in the way that they did to give her a prominent spot in the announcement to comment on it being 'offensive,' makes it seem like we are trying to become Loyola (IL), and kowtowing to the KKK, letting them own a word.

This is the one part of the changeover which I found annoying. I don't care if the name is changed or not but having this twit featured shouldn't have happened.

Kudos to Paul for posting this on twitter. I recommend everyone read the linked thread of thoughtful reflections by former VU athlete Kyle Padgett, especially where he explains: "For me this is not about losing the mascot...it is about the lack of representation, the lack of transparency, and the lack of respect for those that bore the Crusader name for those 80+ years...."


[tweet]1360694066007179266[/tweet]

100x yes.  If you had the name on the chest while representing the university, it gives you a much different perspective versus someone who has probably never attended a Valpo sporting event. 

I know that PO listed a genuine question on his Facebook page around what folks are thinking, and is receiving some positive feedback from his friends that both attended and did not attend Valpo, but my network of Facebook friends, that includes a large amount of former Valpo athletes, is very much having the opposite response.  I would have chimed in to PO's question, but you can tell that he has some friends that are what I would consider 'social justice Crusaders'  ;), so folks like me just don't want to opine and get chastised for having a differing view, as a VU alum has already received on that thread.   

Yeah, people are going to be hesitant to defend the Crusaders on that FB thread. I was reading about our situation on other boards affiliated with other teams, and in a few cases people who supported the Crusader were called racist, old white man, "outing themselves", etc. It's tough waters to dive in if that's the feedback you're going to get.

We live in a society where there is an easy solution to any outcome we don't like.   Just claim a deep state conspiracy and get indignant.  And most importantly, assume that EVERYONE must feel the same way you and your circle feels.  Any divergent thought is impossible to fathom.

The  times is looking for replies from athletes, we need to stop these liberals and the get decision reversed.
Email Aaron.ferguson@nwi.com

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 13, 2021, 07:28:51 AMHumbleopinion - when Stephen F. Austin State University hired a marketing company to change their logo, it cost 1.6 million dollars. After expenses, you would have to have a delta of more like 50 students going 4 years to cover on this expense. Improve the overall quality and experience of the university and the finances, enrollment and status will improve. Changing the mascot name will have negligible impact in the near and long term. Valparaiso is not focused on the right issues.

Heard similar things about Virginia Tech and U. South Florida. I understand that branding is important in a day and age where competition for enrollment and tuition $$$ is absolutely fierce, but you'd have a real hard time convincing me that any rebrand is actually worth the six or seven digit amounts that get spent on it. Just another example of absurd expenditures that drive up the cost of tuition to record levels.

As I have said before, THIS WHOLE THING STINKS...starting with the very top of the University administration.  Very disappointing in the manner this was handled.  And to think how many people have been offended...doesn't it really want to make you cry?  Poor babies.  SUCK IT UP AND DEAL WITH THESE  DO GOODERS AND SELF-RIGHTOUS PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL Valpo administration!

An interesting note that bookends this week's video presentation by Interim President Colette Irwin-Knott, when President O.P. Kretzmann announced the adoption of the Crusader as a VU nickname in 1942, he made an official statement, which can be found quoted in the January 22, 1942 Torch: "The term Crusader... is, I believe, an excellent choice. It connotes the courage and devotion to ideals for which the University stands. In addition, it is a constant reminder to the public that Valparaiso University is proud of its religious background."

I propose the German mythical bird, the Elwetritsch!!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elwetritsch#:~:text=The%20Elwedritsch%20is%20a%20fictional,wings%20are%20of%20little%20use.

I especially like this part--

Hunt

illuminated trap for a nocturnal hunt
The idea is very similar to the "snipe hunt." The Elwetritsch is supposedly very shy, but also very curious. A hunting party consists of a "Fänger" (catcher), equipped with a big potato sack and a lantern, and the "Treiber" (beaters). The catcher is led into the woods where the Elwetritsch is supposed to live, instructed to wait in a clearing with his sack and lantern, while the beaters go off, supposedly to flush out the Elwetritsch. The light of the lantern is said to be attractive to the curious creature, so it will come to investigate and will then be caught by the catcher. While he waits, everyone heads back to the pub or wherever the party had previously assembled, to wait for the catcher to realize that he has been fooled.[3]

Like the jackalope, the Elwetritsch is thought to have been inspired by sightings of wild rabbits infected with the Shope papilloma virus, which causes the growth of antler-like tumours in various places, including on the head.


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Elwetritsch.jpg/800px-Elwetritsch.jpg) 


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/ElwetritschDahn01.jpg/800px-ElwetritschDahn01.jpg)


(https://wandervoegelchen.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/img_0195.jpg?w=500&h=375)


From a German website:

Elwedritsche like to hide in the undergrowth of parks, forest soils and vines. The catcher, armed with a jutesack and a barn lantern, stands at a pre-arranged location. To camouflage the human smell, he has a Rieslingschorle with him. The Elwetritschen do not like the human smell at all and therefore keep away from humans. The drivers form a large circle and chase the persecuted Elwedritsch towards the sack of the catcher. The Elwetritschen are to be attracted by loud 'Tritsch' and the beating of sticks against trees and vines. (it should be clear that such a mythical creature has never been caught before). The catcher must then try with Gurr and Courtzrufen ('Uiuiui... Tritsch, tritsch') to lure the Elwedritsche into the sack.

I like telling the students to "suck it up" followed by all caps keyboard yelling. Irony has truly been a casualty of the pandemic.

I wonder if Valpo is going to hire this dude...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vptf74k7AGE

I found it interesting that in the Times photo section  on the website was this caption under a pic of Brian Wardle: Bradley coach Brian Wardle reacts at an official's call against Valparaiso' Crusaders Wednesday night at the ARC.

John Luke, The Times

Habits are hard to break. Of course this was most likely posted Wednesday night and the announcement about the mascot was made on Thursday morning.

Quote from: cmack on February 13, 2021, 07:59:37 PM
We live in a society where there is an easy solution to any outcome we don't like.   Just claim a deep state conspiracy and get indignant.  And most importantly, assume that EVERYONE must feel the same way you and your circle feels.  Any divergent thought is impossible to fathom.

Your anti-Trump/anti-Republican stance is noted, but you have many folks, like myself, who did not vote for him either time, that are not happy with how this went and was announced. 

Quote from: robg89 on February 13, 2021, 08:53:02 PM
The  times is looking for replies from athletes, we need to stop these liberals and the get decision reversed.
Email Aaron.ferguson@nwi.com

Rob, did you receive the survey?  What about other football players?  If you are who I think you are, you were in school at the same time as me, and had some mutual friends.

I didn't receive a survey from an official university source. However there was a link to survey monkey in the fb football group, not sure if it's the same.

Me and several other baseball players, did not receive the survey.  That is interesting.

So if I go to a Valpo sporting event, can I still wear my hoodie with the Crusader logo on it, or will I be removed? What if I wear it when I'm at a game at a school like Drake? Will I be arrested?

Arrested?  They will probably take your kids too. :)

Haha, when Baseball plays at DBU this season, I will be wearing my Crusaders Baseball shirt, and won't change how I cheer

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 14, 2021, 08:01:28 PMSo if I go to a Valpo sporting event, can I still wear my hoodie with the Crusader logo on it, or will I be removed? What if I wear it when I'm at a game at a school like Drake? Will I be arrested?

It might be a while before I'm next able to go to a game, but y'all can d**n well guess which logo I'll be sporting, and which nickname I'll refer to.

I'm kind of surprised at the animosity on this board. I understand that most people don't understand the entire history of the Crusades or even the perception of the Crusades (which are actually different), but it's hard to believe that so many people were angered that a name which is partially linked to the massacre of Jewish, Muslim, and also different-minded Christians (and has been co-opted by hate groups for years) was changed. The purpose of a university is to attract students, it's hard to do that if a percentage of the population (even if that's 1%) is uncomfortable with the name. It's simple economics & common courtesy. The name change makes total sense and is the right thing to do, in my opinion. Particularly, since Valpo struggles so much with diversity in its student population. This is a logical step to try to expand the University's reach... And, some of you are mad because they are changing the mascot on the sweatshirt? Seems like a small inconvenience compared to the mission of the University.

Also, the "woke" argument is flawed because the name has been reviewed in the 90s, 2000s, and 2010s. This is not new. It's important to note that most of these reviews have been initiated by students, so it's clear the actual people that matter (the students) have a problem with it. Moreover, it's not just liberals that don't like the name. It's not just liberals that don't first think of Crusaders when you think of the University.

So, why not change? We changed our mascot in the 1940s and the University continued to thrive. So why not change now?

For the record, I received the survey and just about everyone I know that is an alumni received the survey via email.

It's safe to say mp91 is Knott or Steinheiser .


MP was also an incredibly offensive acronym in the 900s please change it

Quote from: valpofb16 on February 15, 2021, 03:36:57 PM
It's safe to say mp91 is Knott or Steinheiser .


MP was also an incredibly offensive acronym in the 900s please change it

oh you agree with my point about being sensitive to other cultures. Cool

Unlikely mp91 is Steinhiser. A join date of 2011 would make her 11-12 years old at the time. That would be incredible amount of foresight.

To be clear, I don't really have a problem with them changing it. I have a huge problem with the institution that taught me to be honest and act as God's light lying to me.

Quote from: mp91 on February 15, 2021, 03:49:33 PM

Quote from: valpofb16 on February 15, 2021, 03:36:57 PM
It's safe to say mp91 is Knott or Steinheiser .


MP was also an incredibly offensive acronym in the 900s please change it

oh you agree with my point about being sensitive to other cultures. Cool

Do you tell people experiencing a tough time or that you feel bad, that you will pray for them, without knowing if they are even tied to a religion?  You realize that can be offensive, as well, correct?  I can't tell you how many times I hear such a thing, as people just naturally assume it is ok to say, but I never throw a fit or ask them to not say it.  On the same end, when I am making a comment the is trying to impart my sympathy/condolences, I tell people, 'I will think positive thoughts for you and your family, during this hard time.'

Also, as has been said by multiple posters, it is not just the name change on the sweater.  It is how the university went about making the decision, and how they portrayed the announcement.  You make a reference to the 90s/2000s/2010s, and you are correct, there has always been a small population offended by the mascot name.  There are always going to be people offended about something, regardless of what you do. 

Quote from: NativeCheesehead on February 15, 2021, 06:15:25 PM
To be clear, I don't really have a problem with them changing it. I have a huge problem with the institution that taught me to be honest and act as God's light lying to me.

As some have said, including myself, more damaging to the relationship between the university plus athletic department and its fans or alums than the removal of the Crusader mascot is the loss of trust and loyalty that has resulted from the manner the process has taken place. Even those who defend the removal of the Crusader mascot must recognize this harm. Over on Twitter, Oren reports his research of the Valpo Athletics website reveals that "the school intentionally began moving away from the Crusader nickname in its messaging on Sept. 1, 2018. The change appeared to occur almost overnight."


This happened at precisely the same time the inflatable Crusader was removed from the ARC. If you read the list thread messages then, faculty took credit for having the large Crusader taken away and boasted they "had gotten some alums to support their efforts to get rid of the mascot." When asked about this, Mark LaBarbera denied the phasing out of the Crusader and stated the inflatable Crusader was merely wearing out. Based upon trust of his word by some on the message board, those questioning motives for the removal of the Crusader were viewed as conspiracy theorists—jokes were made about a second shooter theory, etc. All were assured nothing would come of it. In fact, the message board thread is mockingly titled "Mascot Removal—was there a collusion."


However, it is clear now that misleading and manipulative actions or words were happening, and what is more hurtful or damaging for VU fans and alumni is a process that has not been perceived as honest or transparent at any point. For years the university has worked behind the scenes toward removal of the Crusader but denied they were doing so. As Paul points out, the deliberate erasure of the Crusader began in earnest in fall 2018, also when the popular inflatable Crusader was removed from the ARC, a phony story about it wearing out offered to fans as the reason. The recent survey merely gave cover for the anticipated announcement. It was a push poll with biased wording toward a predetermined outcome that asked respondents to choose between being "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader." No comprehensive study of it was done or could have been done in the short time between its submission and the announcement.


Despite the ongoing transitional presence of Heckler and the named new president already on board, the decision was announced just a couple weeks before her leaving by an interim president. Obviously, Padilla knew and approved the action, but he avoided making the announcement himself, which seems an inauspicious way to begin one's tenure. The video addressed accusations of Crusader associations with hate groups and the KKK, not once was there recognition of all the good done in its name by alums in the past 8 decades; yet, a vocal opponent of the Crusader was permitted to speak on the video. The video seemed to be warning that those who opposed removal of the Crusader would be shamed.


Already, in the front page story about the announcement from the current issue of the Torch, a Valpo athlete who opposed changing the mascot, and is aware of the cancel culture, spoke only on condition of anonymity, a first sign of the lasting negative impact of this process. At no stage in this series of steps were alumni and fans treated with respect and given transparency. The mascot may be changed but that is not the real issue in this event. The real issue is the process: university relations with many students, fans, and alumni have been damaged by the ways a divisive and costly move unfolded. This should have been handled in a much more positive and constructive fashion.   

I've heard so many times that the name change is less damaging than the lack of transparency and "sham survey".  I'm sorry.   I don't buy that.  The issue here is that a segment of alumni are upset by the name change.  Simple as that.  The cries of a fraudulent process is a smoke screen and justification for the animosity. 

I hate most of all that the new norm is that we claim fraud and lies and deep state tactics when we get an outcome we don't like.  That's disheartening.   

I am in favor of cutting association with a name tied to murder in the name of religion.  I am in favor of dissociating with a name used prominently by the Ku Klux Klan. 

The justifications are there for why the name change would be appropriate.  Using the sham survey and process narrative is gaslighting and takes away from the real concerns about the name, the real social change that is occurring particularly in most recent years and among younger generations.  Feel free to defend the messaging of the Crusades and Crusader on its merits.  Don't bog us down with the manufactured indignity of sham survey and other conspiracy claims. 

Quote from: cmack on February 16, 2021, 12:11:34 AM
I've heard so many times that the name change is less damaging than the lack of transparency and "sham survey".  I'm sorry.   I don't buy that.  The issue here is that a segment of alumni are upset by the name change.  Simple as that.  The cries of a fraudulent process is a smoke screen and justification for the animosity. 

I hate most of all that the new norm is that we claim fraud and lies and deep state tactics when we get an outcome we don't like.  That's disheartening.   

I am in favor of cutting association with a name tied to murder in the name of religion.  I am in favor of dissociating with a name used prominently by the Ku Klux Klan. 

The justifications are there for why the name change would be appropriate.  Using the sham survey and process narrative is gaslighting and takes away from the real concerns about the name, the real social change that is occurring particularly in most recent years and among younger generations.  Feel free to defend the messaging of the Crusades and Crusader on its merits.  Don't bog us down with the manufactured indignity of sham survey and other conspiracy claims. 

Good to know that you get to decide how other posters feel, and the true reasons behind their feelings.  Should they run their opinions through you first, before posting?  It might save a lot of time and angst.  Sorry, I couldn't help myself ;).

Though I am not as focused on the actual process to get to this point, as I am the way that the announcement was delivered and the political bias that is inferred with including the SBP and the verbiage utilized, I wouldn't want to speak for those that feel that the process was or wasn't transparent.  It is not my place to infer their reasoning or intent, nor is it yours.  Does that mean that I am also shielding some type of dislike for the social change occurring, even whilst married to a card-carrying Democrat, still fairly young at 39, and a prominent fixture/driver of change in Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion discussions for my company as part of the HR department?  Or, could it simply be that I don't think that my university should show such a political bias in the public eye (whether far right or far left)?  I've enjoyed the more moderate conservative nature of the university ever since I attended, and if the go-forward is more of a moderate or more liberal lean, I have a right to reconsider where my money and support is facilitated.  You are trying to apply your statements to 'older white Republican men,' based on your comments, when there are plenty of us in the Others category, that are also not happy with how this was delivered.

Actually, valpopal's post provides pretty compelling evidence. cmack's post doesn't attempt to refute it - it just discards him as a crazy conspiracist without addressing the points he made.

If you have a refutation to the inflatable mascot point valpopal made, then make it. From where I sit, valpopal's post makes a lot of sense, especially the part about the inflatable mascot "wearing out" being dishonest.

Quote from: may know on February 16, 2021, 01:32:31 AM
Actually, valpopal's post provides pretty compelling evidence. cmack's post doesn't attempt to refute it - it just discards him as a crazy conspiracist without addressing the points he made.

If you have a refutation to the inflatable mascot point valpopal made, then make it. From where I sit, valpopal's post makes a lot of sense, especially the part about the inflatable mascot "wearing out" being dishonest.

Quote from: may know on February 16, 2021, 01:32:31 AM
Actually, valpopal's post provides pretty compelling evidence. cmack's post doesn't attempt to refute it - it just discards him as a crazy conspiracist without addressing the points he made.

If you have a refutation to the inflatable mascot point valpopal made, then make it. From where I sit, valpopal's post makes a lot of sense, especially the part about the inflatable mascot "wearing out" being dishonest.

So to clarify, all the transparency purists would be just as a free if the process were changed, but the result was announcing that the university was standing by the Crusader name?  Some would still be upset and threaten to withhold donations?

Even if this was a unilateral decision by the interim president, the debate many are making here avoids confronting those concerns.  Or really acknowledges them.  Many want the process debate because they lack a case against the actual merits of the change presented. 

It's a loophole with very real correlation with what is occurring on the political scene. 

I hate the result, so I'll attack the process.

cmack, if you have an issue with the name crusaders being tied to KKK then Valpo should move all crosses from campus immediately?

See what we are getting at. People will try to be offended at something no matter what. We teach theology and science classes, some find that offensive.

I think the REAL offense is this decision being made by an INTERIM president. Sending out a sham survey to try and coerce alumni into believing their voice could make a difference. The president taking tuition and donation money to lead a task force (her words) against the mascot. Then posting a BS video with the current president acting like they are saviors of the world.

Was a total. I mean total PR move. and if you want proof why was ESPN! (not the local news) contacted the exact same day. Why was the President tweeting about what a great move it was.

In realty, the Crusader mascot has become something else than a Crusader, it became a symbol of Valpo. If it was turning away students that would be one thing. It was progress for the sake of progress which in realty is a great thing right? Wrong! there are much much larger problems going on at this dying University.

Quote from: cmack on February 16, 2021, 12:11:34 AMI am in favor of dissociating with a name used prominently by the Ku Klux Klan. 

You realize there's an African-American newspaper in Gary and Chicago that's named "The Crusader" right?

The process for this type of decision is important. VU knew that changing the name would be upsetting to some people. Instead of trying to be conciliatory, they stuck their finger in the eye of anyone who would question the decision. That's bad politics, that's bad PR. They took something that, if done right, could bring the school together and instead created division. Would some people be always be upset at the name change? Yes. But a lot less people would be upset if the university didn't lie to them about the direction they were headed.

Again, the entire process reflects poorly on leadership. Time and time again, VU has attempted to avoid facing hard decisions; instead either sticking their head in the sand (ie the law school) or choosing the path of least resistance despite long term harm (cutting profitable programs because of the lack of tenured faculty).

If there is one word recently I have seen misused, it is transparency. I hear about it in business where they praise themselves for being transparent but their actions don't follow their words. Very frustrating indeed.

The transparency argument is weak. As has been stated by several people on this message board, the University has reviewed the name during each of the last three decades. And, there are several newspaper articles that have written about this review. So, this is not something new. The University has been transparent over the last three decades about reviewing the name. Not sure why everyone is suddenly surprised when it is finally changed.

Similarly, part of the reason the actual Crusader symbology was phased out was also because of marketing. The actual crusader symbol is not strongly tied to the University in the same way that  the term Valpo is. 50% of people watching us on ESPN probably don't even know the nickname if asked. It's not like we are the Blue Devils or a nickname that is popularized. Logically, if Valpo is your strongest branding, why not go with that on merchandise?

The so-called "political" argument is also very tired. Not really sure how eliminating a nickname partially tied to religious massacres and hate groups is political. Is there any politician in favor of religious massacre symbology? No. So, it's not political. It's cultural. If the nickname is turning away students, why not change it? Still haven't gotten a good answer. Cmack's points are very valid.

People should check out this article, lots of great points made
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/watch-now-valparaiso-alumni-react-to-retiring-of-crusader-mascot-whats-the-problem-with-changing/article_06f06acd-dbe7-5b0f-9a33-253833d7f820.html

Quote from: mj on February 16, 2021, 10:45:23 AM

The process for this type of decision is important. VU knew that changing the name would be upsetting to some people. Instead of trying to be conciliatory, they stuck their finger in the eye of anyone who would question the decision. That's bad politics, that's bad PR. They took something that, if done right, could bring the school together and instead created division. Would some people be always be upset at the name change? Yes. But a lot less people would be upset if the university didn't lie to them about the direction they were headed.

Again, the entire process reflects poorly on leadership.

I could not agree more with mj - this is exactly the problem.

Certainly, changing the mascot was going to be controversial. Doing so was controversial at other universities (think North Dakota, Marquette, Wheaton, Miami OH among others), and the timing of the announcement during a presidential transition made sense. Yet given the historic affinity for the Crusader, the President and the University should have been far more thoughtful and respectful.

How about saying something like:

"...I recognize this decision is controversial, yet I remind everyone that the Crusader was not always our mascot. When selected in 1942, President O.P. Kretzmann said, 'The term Crusader... is, I believe, an excellent choice. It connotes the courage and devotion to ideals for which the University stands.' Tens of thousands of students, alumni, athletes and fans have embraced the positive ideals of our University. We seek to be known for our commitment to integrity, truth, faith and our pursuit of excellence; our students strive for that in the classroom and in competition. We all share pride in the courage and devotion to ideals associated with our historic mascot.

Unfortunately, it has become clear that over time the name and imagery associated with being a 'crusader' has changed. This is especially true for those not familiar with Valparaiso University; there are obvious negative associations with religious wars, and I've become aware that certain hate groups have used the name to further their interests. Clearly, we do not wish to be associated with such negative symbolism.

It is now time to retire the Crusader mascot. We do so not because our shared commitment to the ideals of Valparaiso University has changed, but because the old mascot has become less effective in representing those ideals to those outside the University.

In the coming months, you will hear more about the process as we look for a new mascot. Please join me in this process, and thank you for your continued commitment to the shared future of Valparaiso University." 

Mention has been made on this board - several times - that the Crusader name has been tied to hate groups.  Which ones?  I'd like some specifics. I don't spend my time scouring the internet to see what is has to say about the name "Crusader."

The only hate group I'm aware of that has made mention of the Crusader name is the KKK, which apparently has a newspaper with that name.  But so does a Chicago publication that caters to African-American communities. 

Paul

Quote from: valpo95 on February 16, 2021, 11:50:30 AM

Quote from: mj on February 16, 2021, 10:45:23 AM

The process for this type of decision is important. VU knew that changing the name would be upsetting to some people. Instead of trying to be conciliatory, they stuck their finger in the eye of anyone who would question the decision. That's bad politics, that's bad PR. They took something that, if done right, could bring the school together and instead created division. Would some people be always be upset at the name change? Yes. But a lot less people would be upset if the university didn't lie to them about the direction they were headed.

Again, the entire process reflects poorly on leadership.

I could not agree more with mj - this is exactly the problem.

Certainly, changing the mascot was going to be controversial. Doing so was controversial at other universities (think North Dakota, Marquette, Wheaton, Miami OH among others), and the timing of the announcement during a presidential transition made sense. Yet given the historic affinity for the Crusader, the President and the University should have been far more thoughtful and respectful.

How about saying something like:

"...I recognize this decision is controversial, yet I remind everyone that the Crusader was not always our mascot. When selected in 1942, President O.P. Kretzmann said, 'The term Crusader... is, I believe, an excellent choice. It connotes the courage and devotion to ideals for which the University stands.' Tens of thousands of students, alumni, athletes and fans have embraced the positive ideals of our University. We seek to be known for our commitment to integrity, truth, faith and our pursuit of excellence; our students strive for that in the classroom and in competition. We all share pride in the courage and devotion to ideals associated with our historic mascot.

Unfortunately, it has become clear that over time the name and imagery associated with being a 'crusader' has changed. This is especially true for those not familiar with Valparaiso University; there are obvious negative associations with religious wars, and I've become aware that certain hate groups have used the name to further their interests. Clearly, we do not wish to be associated with such negative symbolism.

It is now time to retire the Crusader mascot. We do so not because our shared commitment to the ideals of Valparaiso University has changed, but because the old mascot has become less effective in representing those ideals to those outside the University.

In the coming months, you will hear more about the process as we look for a new mascot. Please join me in this process, and thank you for your continued commitment to the shared future of Valparaiso University."

Do you do this for a living? This is exactly how the university should have went about this. I do think they have the opportunity to come up with a more unique name that represents the university better than the generic Crusader. It hasn't really been addressed how the university will come up with a new name. Are they taking submissions? Putting it up to a vote? Hearing input from alumni and students? It seems like they didn't really think this all the way through.

The change is a joke.  Those if you who are offended need to get a life .  If you are offended, that is YOUR problem...not the University's, not mine.  Isn't it amazing how that for all of these past decades it wasn't as problem, or a very small one at best, for those who constantly find fault with something or someone.  I would guess that 90% or better of the student body, alumni and the public in general  don't even know what some people are talking about when it comes to the "crusader" being offensive.  I would guess that the next big name change will involve the Anaheim Angels Major League baseball team because surely some of those people affiliated with that organization don't and haven't always behaved "like angels".

It is a shame that some of those who think they know it all and want to impose their knowledge and themselves  on the rest of us have so much influence in today's world.

Oh, and by the way, have you heard about all those bad personal traits of Martin Luther?  Time for another name change.

Quote from: valpo64 on February 16, 2021, 12:33:02 PM
The change is a joke.  Those if you who are offended need to get a life .  If you are offended, that is YOUR problem...not the University's, not mine.  Isn't it amazing how that for all of these past decades it wasn't as problem, or a very small one at best, for those who constantly find fault with something or someone.  I would guess that 90% or better of the student body, alumni and the public in general  don't even know what some people are talking about when it comes to the "crusader" being offensive.  I would guess that the next big name change will involve the Anaheim Angels Major League baseball team because surely some of those people affiliated with that organization don't and haven't always behaved "like angels".

It is a shame that some of those who think they know it all and want to impose their knowledge and themselves  on the rest of us have so much influence in today's world.

Oh, and by the way, have you heard about all those bad personal traits of Martin Luther?  Time for another name change.

You are incorrect – it is the University's problem. Universities are businesses. Education is the product of the business. Like any other company, if a business has a problem that is affecting its bottom line, it needs to make changes. Point blank. It's very simple. They are not changing the name just for fun, it has a purpose. They made the decision that the negative connotation/perception of the name was negatively influencing the University to the point that it needed to be changed to prevent further bad PR, student backlash, and economic damages. So yes, whether people are offended is in fact the University's problem. The Washington football team did not change their name until there were economic consequences, then they changed. Should they have changed sooner? Definitely. But the bottom line is the economics played a major factor. Similarly, here, the University has to look out for its future, both in terms of perception and economics.

It should also be the alumni's problem because you don't want your university being looked down upon. You're right, not everyone is offended, but that's not the point. Much like no one can tell you what to be offended by, no one can tell another person what NOT to be offended by. Context matters. History matters. Perception matters. The world doesn't revolve around one person or one group. Just because you're not offended doesn't mean your opinion means more than someone else who is offended. The University has to consider everyone's opinions.

And, for those talking about the "historic affinity" for the term "Crusaders." Not really sure where this is coming from. The University began phasing out the term on sweatshirts and promotions over two years ago and none of you guys noticed. So, your "affinity" must not be that strong.... Not to mention, fear of changing just because "that's the way it's always been" is usually not the strongest of arguments.

Quote from: hailcrusaders on February 13, 2021, 09:13:54 PM

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 13, 2021, 07:28:51 AMHumbleopinion - when Stephen F. Austin State University hired a marketing company to change their logo, it cost 1.6 million dollars. After expenses, you would have to have a delta of more like 50 students going 4 years to cover on this expense. Improve the overall quality and experience of the university and the finances, enrollment and status will improve. Changing the mascot name will have negligible impact in the near and long term. Valparaiso is not focused on the right issues.

Heard similar things about Virginia Tech and U. South Florida. 

University of South Florida? Was the cow population up in arms? USF has been the Bulls for, I think, the entirety of the existance of the sports programs. Perhaps you mean Florida State (Seminoles)?

Quote from: mp91 on February 16, 2021, 11:40:19 AM
The transparency argument is weak. As has been stated by several people on this message board, the University has reviewed the name during each of the last three decades. And, there are several newspaper articles that have written about this review. So, this is not something new. The University has been transparent over the last three decades about reviewing the name. Not sure why everyone is suddenly surprised when it is finally changed.

Similarly, part of the reason the actual Crusader symbology was phased out was also because of marketing. The actual crusader symbol is not strongly tied to the University in the same way that  the term Valpo is. 50% of people watching us on ESPN probably don't even know the nickname if asked. It's not like we are the Blue Devils or a nickname that is popularized. Logically, if Valpo is your strongest branding, why not go with that on merchandise?

The so-called "political" argument is also very tired. Not really sure how eliminating a nickname partially tied to religious massacres and hate groups is political. Is there any politician in favor of religious massacre symbology? No. So, it's not political. It's cultural. If the nickname is turning away students, why not change it? Still haven't gotten a good answer. Cmack's points are very valid.

People should check out this article, lots of great points made
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/watch-now-valparaiso-alumni-react-to-retiring-of-crusader-mascot-whats-the-problem-with-changing/article_06f06acd-dbe7-5b0f-9a33-253833d7f820.html

The political argument is very real.  It may tire you out, and I can respect that, but for many folks, it is real.  Do things only matter when you are offended, and are 'tiring' when you agree with a decision?  You can't have it both ways, where things make sense when you agree, and when you have discourse, it is unwarranted.  You are telling me that you feel it was necessary to include a far left political activist in the actual video for such a divisive message, when they are not an employee of the university?  In a best case scenario, that is really poor planning, as her political views are easy to access.  There was no reason to have a separate section just for her, if you didn't even have such a section for a Faculty representative, if the intent was to show Student & Faculty support.  Her role as the current SBP is inconsequential to such a decision that affects so many people, so the only reason I can see that she was needed on video, was that the university is potentially taking a turn towards the left end of the political spectrum.  I can tell you that the word Crusader is not listed as an offensive term in my company's Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion guidance, and when I asked other members of my HR team if they were offended by the word, the response was a resounding 'no, as it can mean something different nowadays, versus 1,000 years ago.'

As for others that question whether our/my stance would change on donations, if the message was delivered differently, yes, it would be different for me.  If it was just a simple worded statement that the student senate supports the change, versus having a political activist talk about how a Crusader can be tied to hate, etc, I would be more onboard with this direction.  As it was presented to me, this was a message that might be put out by an Oberlin College, Loyola (IL), etc, and I don't support institutions with such a liberal lean.  So yes, it can be political. 

Quote from: cmack on February 16, 2021, 07:31:03 AM
I hate the result, so I'll attack the process.

In all due respect, cmack, the same claim could be made about you:

"I LIKE the result, so I'll DEFEND the process."

In any problem solving model the validity of the process determines the validity of the solution. If the process is flawed, the solution is flawed. Even if the process is properly designed but isn't properly followed, the solution is flawed. If key stakeholders were in fact excluded from expressing their opinions, either intentionally or accidentally, the solution is invalid. Why? Because we'll never know if the decision reflects the true feelings of the majority of key stakeholders. The orchestrators will forever have a credibility problem. Honesty and integrity are hard to earn but easy to lose. Whether that translates into reduced financial support, only time will tell.

Quote from: 78crusader on February 16, 2021, 12:13:26 PM
Mention has been made on this board - several times - that the Crusader name has been tied to hate groups.  Which ones?  I'd like some specifics. I don't spend my time scouring the internet to see what is has to say about the name "Crusader."

The only hate group I'm aware of that has made mention of the Crusader name is the KKK, which apparently has a newspaper with that name.  But so does a Chicago publication that caters to African-American communities. 

Paul

If you really want to explore this, here is an article:

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/641/pdf

First, Stephen F Austin is an entirely different situation. They changed a logo, not a nickname. This was a very minor change so it's no wonder that the result was minor. It was not related to the team's name and was not heavily influenced by controversial nicknames. So, it's really a false equivalency.

Secondly, Valpotx, I have no idea what you are referencing in terms of radicals on a video. And, not sure what that has to do with a name change. Seems like a completely different matter. In terms of the nickname, how is it political? If you believe liberals are against the nickname/symbol, then are you telling me conservatives like symbols that could be interpreted as symbols of religious massacres or hate groups? Of course not. Conservatives are not in favor of massacres. So, how is it political? The answer is: it's not. The name was changed because of its cultural perception to some and because of its impact on recruiting new students and because of PR. That's not politics.

Finally, Wh, not sure what process you believe was improper. The University publicly said it was reviewing the name each of the last three decades. Then, they sent out a poll to alumni. So, what is the great travesty of process you are talking about? They did not just change the name overnight. It was the result of several reviews and alumni input.

Quote from: mp91 on February 16, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Finally, Wh, not sure what process you believe was improper. The University publicly said it was reviewing the name each of the last three decades. Then, they sent out a poll to alumni. So, what is the great travesty of process you are talking about? They did not just change the name overnight. It was the result of several reviews and alumni input.

I was assuming everyone has been following this thread from the beginning, but maybe you haven't. Several posters have indicated that they did not receive any information about this, survey or otherwise. Let me add that neither my son nor I were invited to participate in a survey. My son is a graduate of the law school. My wife and I are longstanding donors, who make annual gifts and occasional 1-time gifts in response to special appeals. The university has my email address, my home address, my business address, and my cell phone number. Why weren't we extended the courtesy of being asked for our opinions?

Quote from: wh on February 16, 2021, 01:48:45 PM

Quote from: mp91 on February 16, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Finally, Wh, not sure what process you believe was improper. The University publicly said it was reviewing the name each of the last three decades. Then, they sent out a poll to alumni. So, what is the great travesty of process you are talking about? They did not just change the name overnight. It was the result of several reviews and alumni input.

I was assuming everyone has been following this thread from the beginning, but maybe you haven't. Several posters have indicated that they did not receive any information about this, survey or otherwise. Let me add that neither my son nor I were invited to participate in a survey. My son is a graduate of the law school. My wife and I are longstanding donors, who make annual gifts and occasional 1-time gifts in response to special appeals. The university has my email address, my home address, my business address, and my cell phone number. Why weren't we extended the courtesy of being asked for our opinions?

All I can tell you is everyone I know got the survey. In fact, I didn't fill it out at first, I was even given a reminder email. In an ideal world, every alumni should have had input. But, it's probably logistically impossible. From everything I have read, nearly 8000 people did the survey. While it would've been nice if it was everyone, that's a pretty good sample size.

i'm telling you MP91 is Interim President Knotte! trying to save donations!

As a general rule, surveys/polls/votes are not necessarily good sources for decisions on changing mascots/nicknames, etc and for a variety of reasons.

It was those damn Dominion machines they used to tally up the surveys. 

Quote from: mp91 on February 16, 2021, 01:28:02 PMSo, what is the great travesty of process you are talking about? They did not just change the name overnight. It was the result of several reviews and alumni input.

Right, the university started removing the Crusader in 2018 but wouldn't come out and admit that for fear of backlash. They then issued a survey but wouldn't release the results. They had a committee but haven't released the names of members or any reports that were generated. How is that an acceptable process? Can you see why some people might not appreciate the lack of candor Valpo displayed.

Quote from: mp91 on February 16, 2021, 01:53:49 PM

Quote from: wh on February 16, 2021, 01:48:45 PM
I was assuming everyone has been following this thread from the beginning, but maybe you haven't. Several posters have indicated that they did not receive any information about this, survey or otherwise. Let me add that neither my son nor I were invited to participate in a survey. My son is a graduate of the law school. My wife and I are longstanding donors, who make annual gifts and occasional 1-time gifts in response to special appeals. The university has my email address, my home address, my business address, and my cell phone number. Why weren't we extended the courtesy of being asked for our opinions?

All I can tell you is everyone I know got the survey. In fact, I didn't fill it out at first, I was even given a reminder email. In an ideal world, every alumni should have had input. But, it's probably logistically impossible. From everything I have read, nearly 8000 people did the survey. While it would've been nice if it was everyone, that's a pretty good sample size.

Watch the announcement video. The only mention of the survey is that 7700 people responded—not even a complete sentence. As biased as it was, no details about results or analysis were offered, no comprehensive task force report delivered, no supporting data. There was no time for evaluation between the survey and the announcement. As others indicate, it was a sham, a pretense to give cover. The lack of respect for students, fans, and alumni who have served in various capacities under the name of the Crusader in numerous organizations and sports throughout the past 80 years was stunning. They were thrown under the bus as the Crusader was tied to hate groups or the KKK, yet not a single comment of appreciation for the 8 decades of good work by so many as Crusaders. In fact, the tone of the announcement clearly suggested anyone opposing the change or perhaps continuing to wear Crusader sweatshirts ought to be shamed. If you look at comments in social media, you see this happening. Some on here and elsewhere have mentioned their refusal to contribute to conversations online at the university site or apparently Paul Oren's Facebook page because of the toxic responses others have received. The Torch article about the announcement quotes a student athlete who opposed the change, but he would only speak under the condition of anonymity for fear of doxxing and backlash.   

Would a petition for a name return and president Knotte's resignation gain steam?

Quote from: valpopal on February 16, 2021, 02:34:43 PM

Quote from: mp91 on February 16, 2021, 01:53:49 PM

Quote from: wh on February 16, 2021, 01:48:45 PM
I was assuming everyone has been following this thread from the beginning, but maybe you haven't. Several posters have indicated that they did not receive any information about this, survey or otherwise. Let me add that neither my son nor I were invited to participate in a survey. My son is a graduate of the law school. My wife and I are longstanding donors, who make annual gifts and occasional 1-time gifts in response to special appeals. The university has my email address, my home address, my business address, and my cell phone number. Why weren't we extended the courtesy of being asked for our opinions?

All I can tell you is everyone I know got the survey. In fact, I didn't fill it out at first, I was even given a reminder email. In an ideal world, every alumni should have had input. But, it's probably logistically impossible. From everything I have read, nearly 8000 people did the survey. While it would've been nice if it was everyone, that's a pretty good sample size.

Watch the announcement video. The only mention of the survey is that 7700 people responded—not even a complete sentence. As biased as it was, no details about results or analysis were offered, no comprehensive task force report delivered, no supporting data. There was no time for evaluation between the survey and the announcement. As others indicate, it was a sham, a pretense to give cover. The lack of respect for students, fans, and alumni who have served in various capacities under the name of the Crusader in numerous organizations and sports throughout the past 80 years was stunning. They were thrown under the bus as the Crusader was tied to hate groups or the KKK, yet not a single comment of appreciation for the 8 decades of good work by so many as Crusaders. In fact, the tone of the announcement clearly suggested anyone opposing the change or perhaps continuing to wear Crusader sweatshirts ought to be shamed. If you look at comments in social media, you see this happening. Some on here and elsewhere have mentioned their refusal to contribute to conversations online at the university site or apparently Paul Oren's Facebook page because of the toxic responses others have received. The Torch article about the announcement quotes a student athlete who opposed the change, but he would only speak under the condition of anonymity for fear of doxxing and backlash.   

I enjoy starting conversations on Facebook because, unlike many friends and family I have, I have tried to build a network of people who have thoughts that spread across the political aisles. If you know me personally, you know that I'm always trying to get to the other side of a problem or a disagreement, so I can see how the other side views something. I think the fact I'm a child of divorce plays a big role in this. Very rarely in life do I believe things are black and white. I get criticized for this because people want me to take hard stands on issues, like they want me to throw Lottich under the bus. I spend most of my time in the middle. It's not that I don't stand for things, I stand for plenty, but I'm always more interested in the debate that comes before the resolution.

Now, as for the thread that Mark referenced on FB, here was my question...

"Many are saying that the "Crusader" represents oppression. The opponents of this are flabbergasted that a mascot or symbol could mean that much. They can't understand how someone might be offended.
Yet, many of these people are the same ones who were offended when athletes were kneeling for the anthem.
So help me out. Are symbols not worth getting offended over or are they?"

There are 87 comments and many of them are very civil. Like many social media conversations, there is/was an offshoot of people taking potshots at one another. I wouldn't call it toxic by any means. Mark and I, who have known each other for 20 years, have also been in contact and I'm hoping to further the conversation. 

Quote from: valpofb16 on February 16, 2021, 02:40:34 PMWould a petition for a name return and president Knotte's resignation gain steam?

No. President Padilla takes over in 2 weeks. VU isn't going to walk this back either. It's better to push for  an open and fair process in picking the new mascot.
Although they said a new committee will be formed, we've seen how that's gone in the past...

Quote from: mp91 on February 16, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
First, Stephen F Austin is an entirely different situation. They changed a logo, not a nickname. This was a very minor change so it's no wonder that the result was minor. It was not related to the team's name and was not heavily influenced by controversial nicknames. So, it's really a false equivalency.

Secondly, Valpotx, I have no idea what you are referencing in terms of radicals on a video. And, not sure what that has to do with a name change. Seems like a completely different matter. In terms of the nickname, how is it political? If you believe liberals are against the nickname/symbol, then are you telling me conservatives like symbols that could be interpreted as symbols of religious massacres or hate groups? Of course not. Conservatives are not in favor of massacres. So, how is it political? The answer is: it's not. The name was changed because of its cultural perception to some and because of its impact on recruiting new students and because of PR. That's not politics.

Finally, Wh, not sure what process you believe was improper. The University publicly said it was reviewing the name each of the last three decades. Then, they sent out a poll to alumni. So, what is the great travesty of process you are talking about? They did not just change the name overnight. It was the result of several reviews and alumni input.

The Student Body President, a known far left political activist, was given prominent positioning on the video announcement, as to show tacit acknowledgement that her views are reflected by the university.  She would not take umbrage with my classification of her as a political activist, as I believe that she has used the term previously, nor is my use of those words tied to any bias against folks that are political activists for their causes.  However, her views are so far to the left, that it caused me to think of the political nature tied to the announcement, as if the university feels that her views represent the views of our university/alumni population.  It essentially seems like a victory parade for her and her far left views, which I do not support.  I don't see how that is confusing.  No one is saying mass murder is supported by any political party.  What I had thought that I was clearly saying, is that the SBP's presence on the video announcement, forces me to think of it in a political nature, as her presence was not required on that video message.  I don't care about the actual name of our mascot, but I do care about how my undergraduate program aligns on the political spectrum publicly.  My MBA program, TCU, is still very much aligned with my more moderate conservative views, and if Valpo is going to turn more liberal, my donations will move over to TCU.

Quote from: mj on February 16, 2021, 02:53:40 PM

Quote from: valpofb16 on February 16, 2021, 02:40:34 PMWould a petition for a name return and president Knotte's resignation gain steam?

No. President Padilla takes over in 2 weeks. VU isn't going to walk this back either. It's better to push for  an open and fair process in picking the new mascot.
Although they said a new committee will be formed, we've seen how that's gone in the past...

How do we push for a process that results in a name that isn't completely lame or generic? I guess the best course of action in 2021 is to make sure the people we disagree with or make dumb decisions lose their livelihood and lose their jobs.

Maybe reach out and ask how to be put in the committee.

Mp91 - a mascot name change will have minimal effect on Valpo's business status. Since you brought the business perspective up, why doesn't the Valpo focus on getting the balance sheets sorted out and provide a basketball program and facility comparable to the MVC?

Too much energy spent on trivial matters. Valpo has bigger issues than this.

Quote from: valpofb16 on February 16, 2021, 09:52:44 AM
cmack, if you have an issue with the name crusaders being tied to KKK then Valpo should move all crosses from campus immediately?

See what we are getting at.

No, not at all. This is the most bizarre take I've heard yet.  Just wow.  🤦🏼‍♂️

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 16, 2021, 04:04:51 PM
Mp91 - a mascot name change will have minimal effect on Valpo's business status. Since you brought the business perspective up, why doesn't the Valpo focus on getting the balance sheets sorted out and provide a basketball program and facility comparable to the MVC?

Too much energy spent on trivial matters. Valpo has bigger issues than this.

Our leaders (business & political) have run out of problems they feel they can tackle during their tenure.  It's altogether too easy to ignore the long and difficult projects in favor of quick hitting, inconsequential projects such as mascots (pro or collegiate).

In this one regard democracies fall short, short term solutions to long term problems.  We no longer have leaders who expect to be at the helm for careers, so what incentives do they have to effect '10-years out' if they'll be on their third job?

Just because you are student council does not imply you are a bastion of wisdom. It was similar to when I was at Valpo almost 40 years ago, and honestly I didn't have time for that stuff working on a EE degree and preparing for Friday's Happy Hour.


Now let's starting the new arena and make Valpo basketball great again!

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 16, 2021, 05:52:21 PM
Just because you are student council does not imply you are a bastion of wisdom. It was similar to when I was at Valpo almost 40 years ago, and honestly I didn't have time for that stuff working on a EE degree and preparing for Friday's Happy Hour.


Now let's starting the new arena and make Valpo basketball great again!

I'd be curious what the voting turnout is for positions such as Student Senate or Student Body President at Valpo.

I wonder if the student body really cares, or if the the votes get stacked by Greeks. Who knows...

Quote from: cmack on February 16, 2021, 12:11:34 AM
I've heard so many times that the name change is less damaging than the lack of transparency and "sham survey".  I'm sorry.   I don't buy that.  The issue here is that a segment of alumni are upset by the name change.  Simple as that.  The cries of a fraudulent process is a smoke screen and justification for the animosity. 

I hate most of all that the new norm is that we claim fraud and lies and deep state tactics when we get an outcome we don't like.  That's disheartening.   

I am in favor of cutting association with a name tied to murder in the name of religion.  I am in favor of dissociating with a name used prominently by the Ku Klux Klan. 

The justifications are there for why the name change would be appropriate.  Using the sham survey and process narrative is gaslighting and takes away from the real concerns about the name, the real social change that is occurring particularly in most recent years and among younger generations.  Feel free to defend the messaging of the Crusades and Crusader on its merits.  Don't bog us down with the manufactured indignity of sham survey and other conspiracy claims. 

And in the end Crusaders was just not that good of a nickname/mascot. I've always thought that.

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 16, 2021, 06:29:49 PM
I wonder if the student body really cares, or if the the votes get stacked by Greeks. Who knows...

Completely my point.  I don't remember any email announcements of whenever this occurred when I was on campus, but assume that items were only posted in the Union back then.  I would hope that it is more well-publicized nowadays.

Quote from: valpotx on February 16, 2021, 11:51:22 PM

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 16, 2021, 06:29:49 PM
I wonder if the student body really cares, or if the the votes get stacked by Greeks. Who knows...

Completely my point.  I don't remember any email announcements of whenever this occurred when I was on campus, but assume that items were only posted in the Union back then.  I would hope that it is more well-publicized nowadays.

I know The Torch would do a huge spread every year about the students that were running for SBP and SBVP. They would list when the debate was and when you could vote. Here is a link to one from the 2000-01 school year. Particulary of note to you ValpoTX is I wrote a VU Baseball story in that issue. I used the Crusader nickname in the headline, in the lede of my story and in the pull quote!

https://collections.valpo.edu/digital/collection/torch/id/26615/rec/2738

Haha, well there you go.  I apparently just didn't pay attention to anything Student Senate was doing, while on campus.  Do you remember anything about voter turnout?

Also, Mark Pedersen was an absolute stud of a baseball player.  Very cool to read your article this many years later, and that looks like Justin Lata in the picture.  Looks closer to 6'3" versus the 6'7" Mason Linderbaum, or 6'10" Kyle Cummings.  That 2000-2001 baseball team was pretty solid, ending the season at 28-29.  Large improvement from the 14-49 or whatever it was, during my RS year of 1999-2000.  Marc Boggio (another stud player) actually lives in Dallas now, and has picked up baseball again in the last year, in tandem with his music career.  I play in a league that is in-between Dallas and Fort Worth, but I might end up playing a few games with his more Dallas-based team. 

When writing the header, lede, and pull quote, did you feel offended?  Sorry, I had to ask :)

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/mascot-debate-at-valparaiso-has-proponents-and-opponents-just-as-it-did-in-the-1940s/article_cbb15837-c915-557e-9668-5194e3f60bd2.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Quote from: cmack on February 16, 2021, 04:53:31 PM

Quote from: valpofb16 on February 16, 2021, 09:52:44 AMcmack, if you have an issue with the name crusaders being tied to KKK then Valpo should move all crosses from campus immediately? See what we are getting at.

No, not at all. This is the most bizarre take I've heard yet.  Just wow.  🤦🏼‍♂️

As you may or may not know, a few years ago, internet trolls thought it would be funny to trick everyone into thinking the OK hand symbol means "White Power" and is a symbol white supremacists use to signal to each other. It was 100% a joke and not true. But here we are today, with the OK hand symbol designated as a hate symbol, people get shamed and fired for using it, etc. So to the point, the KKK uses the cross in all of the symbols, so who's to say we shouldn't treat the cross as a symbol of hate? When you let others define what words/symbols mean, then you have no control.

As a more outlandish example, I have heard someone say that the Tigers as LSU's mascot was racist because a mostly white southern school was appropriating an animal of an oppressed Asian culture.

Eventually the outlandish examples (OK hand symbol/LSU Tigers/The Cross being a symbol of hate) can become mainstream if not kept in check and have appropriate pushback. The Crusader is certainly less outlandish of an argument, but the reasoning of a hate group using the word as an excuse is a slippery slope that opens a lot of potential future arguments and also the ability for Trolls/bad actors to fake the connection to hate groups for personal gain/pleasure.

I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups.  Another member of the board provided me with a link from an anti-terrorist group, but I imagined it would be easy for proponents of the name change to provide some evidence other than an obscure link from an anti-terrorist group that few people have ever heard of.  I would like to see actual evidence that groups in this country have used the Crusader name to further a "hate" agenda.

This is one of the main reasons given for the name change.  It's easy to say the Crusader name has been hijacked by hate groups.  It is harder come up with proof such is the case. 

Paul

That article was outstanding. Presented historical background and quoted conflicting viewpoints by important people who don't have a prominent voice. Exactly what journalism should be.

Quote from: 78crusader on February 17, 2021, 09:56:12 AM
I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups.  Another member of the board provided me with a link from an anti-terrorist group, but I imagined it would be easy for proponents of the name change to provide some evidence other than an obscure link from an anti-terrorist group that few people have ever heard of. 

Let's be honest, the argument that the Crusader is tied to hate groups was exaggerated and promoted by the anti-Crusader lobbyists because the same old argument about its historical religious connotations had never gotten anywhere with the university's overall community and would likely fail to be persuasive again this time. Instead, the strategy was a political spin appealing to a woke mentality and capitalizing on recent acts of cancel culture, allowing members to participate in their own form of virtue signaling. That is why arguments that this is nothing new—because objections to the Crusader had been raised by some in the past couple of decades—and not a product of woke mentality don't hold up. This also explains why the announcement video focused on the spin that this was a "hate groups" issue rather than the old argument about a historical religious aspect of the Crusader, which was relegated to the background. As one who is interested in process, I say this with admiration for design of the political strategy by the anti-Crusader activists.

Quote from: may know on February 17, 2021, 10:00:44 AM
That article was outstanding. Presented historical background and quoted conflicting viewpoints by important people who don't have a prominent voice. Exactly what journalism should be.

Agreed. Kudos to Paul.

Maybe the article was outstanding.  But an article isn't proof.  It cites one - and only one - use of the Crusader name for malicious reasons in the United States - a group of 3 wackos in Kansas who in 2016 threatened Muslims and who called themselves "the Crusaders."

That's it. 

If that one example - one incident in a country of 330 million people, spanning decades - was so important, why didn't the University cite that as a reason for getting rid of the Crusader?  Instead, we heard the vague charge that the name is linked to, and used by, hate groups (plural). If the University had any proof the Crusader name was linked to hate groups, it was their responsibility to provide that information as justification for the change.  That was not done.   

This whole deal is bogus.

Paul

The "adopted by hate groups" is just a way for the university to save face and absolve themselves of blame for using a mascot for 70 years they themselves have deemed unacceptable. I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't disingenuous. The name didn't suddenly become problematic; this debate has been going on for years.

I thought that I would paste this link (which I found after a very short Google search) again.  I know that it requires reading, but those of you who want to associate yourselves with a university should not be afraid of scholarly papers:

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/641/pdf

Alinsky's "Rules For Radicals" - Rule #13: "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." So simple, so effective. Valpo's board and administration have allowed a destructive force of pseudo science teachers, faculty and staff feminists, and a radical student pawn to establish a false narrative and do serious damage to Valparaiso University's image and reputation. The university must be called out and shamed for its indefensible insensitivity toward another major religion and its adherents, and even worse, for its 80-year indirect connection to the KKK and other unnamed hate groups. The story is communicated to lapdogs in the media and turned into a national story. The university goes into full blown damage control. It accepts the criticism at face value, problem solves a solution, then engages its stakeholders to create the illusion that they played a part in the fix. The group of perpetually aggrieved faculty and staff members are thrilled with all the attention and marvel as it momentarily fills the void in their lives. Once the high wears off, it's back to business - removing "offensive" Christian symbols like the Cross from public display, ending the playing of the National Anthem prior to athletic events - the possibilities are endless. So much to do; so little time.

The anthem before all athletic events has made the anthem less meaningful.

Quote from: 78crusader on February 17, 2021, 09:56:12 AM
I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups.  Another member of the board provided me with a link from an anti-terrorist group, but I imagined it would be easy for proponents of the name change to provide some evidence other than an obscure link from an anti-terrorist group that few people have ever heard of.  I would like to see actual evidence that groups in this country have used the Crusader name to further a "hate" agenda.

This is one of the main reasons given for the name change.  It's easy to say the Crusader name has been hijacked by hate groups.  It is harder come up with proof such is the case. 

Paul

This example took me all of about 30 seconds to find:

https://twitter.com/astroehlein/status/677127361222021121  (https://twitter.com/astroehlein/status/677127361222021121)

(BTW, the tweet comes from the European Media Director, Human Rights Watch).

You could also look at an article like this:

https://www.history.com/news/how-hate-groups-are-hijacking-medieval-symbols-while-ignoring-the-facts-behind-them (https://www.history.com/news/how-hate-groups-are-hijacking-medieval-symbols-while-ignoring-the-facts-behind-them)

Clearly this does not represent what the Valparaiso Crusader is all about, yet these are some examples showing that crusader-related imagery being used by individuals in ways that are offensive.

Meanwhile, back in reality land and actual leadership of organizations:  The only question we should ask in light of our 2020 Moody's bond rating downgrade is this, "Does the mascot change increase enrollment and improve our finances?"  If not, then the mascot change is just a shiny object, perhaps intentionally designed to distract.

On January 21, 2020 Moody's downgraded our bond rating.  Moody's cited three factors that could lead to a (further) downgrade. The second one is "Inability to produce near balanced operating performance in fiscal 2021."

Are we clear?

Quote from: crusadermoe on February 17, 2021, 12:40:28 PM
Meanwhile, back in reality land and actual leadership of organizations:  The only question we should ask in light of our 2020 Moody's bond rating downgrade is this, "Does the mascot change increase enrollment and improve our finances?"  If not, then the mascot change is just a shiny object, perhaps intentionally designed to distract.

On January 21, 2020 Moody's downgraded our bond rating.  Moody's cited three factors that could lead to a (further) downgrade. The second one is "Inability to produce near balanced operating performance in fiscal 2021."

Are we clear?

Crystal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmKOVdAGtzM

Does that mean Valparaiso is in danger?

Grave danger?

Is there another kind?

To be clear, this is all about athletics and not about the university in general.  Do we talk about "The Crusader Chorale" or "the Crusader Business College"  No. It only refers to the mascot for athletic teams. People outside of our little universe don't think of Valpo as Crusaders, they think of Valpo as..."Valpo"

Other universities have changed their mascots and, I'm sure, in doing so, created all sorts of controversies. Think about Belmont changing from the Rebels to the Bruins (in Tennessee). Or Butler changing from "The Christians" to the Bulldogs, or Dartmouth changing from "the Indians" to the Big Green or Miami changing from "The Redskins" to the Redhawks. Think everybody was happy?  Did they change to broaden their appeal or possibly to not offend future students? Most certainly.

Its just a mascot.

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 16, 2021, 04:04:51 PM
Mp91 - a mascot name change will have minimal effect on Valpo's business status. Since you brought the business perspective up, why doesn't the Valpo focus on getting the balance sheets sorted out and provide a basketball program and facility comparable to the MVC?

Too much energy spent on trivial matters. Valpo has bigger issues than this.

Not really sure how you can say changing a name that is linked to hate groups is a "trivial matter." It's actually extremely important to the University's public perception and growth opportunities.

Everyone on here seems to be furious because the name was changed, simply because it was changed. Again, the argument that things should stay the same just because that's how they have always been isn't convincing. Perceptions of events and people change over time. You have to be willing to change along with it. Otherwise, we would still be saying the earth is flat.

Also, curious, what are everyone's thoughts on changing the name during World War II? Do you think we should have kept the German soldier symbology then? And, explain your thinking. To me, this change has a lot of parallels to the name change back then.

Whatever gets the university back on stable footing. My biggest concern is the cost of the rebranding secondarily upsetting players (which may not be a valid concern) and thirdly the message this sends about commitment to athletics when we have so many things to fix right now and limited money to fix them. We need another run to get the attention and spotlight back on Valpo athletics and we need to actually capitalize on this one in a way we didn't in 1998. I just hope our university will seize it if it comes by. That or we need a bailout from a bunch of other MVC teams doing well in the tournament so that we have a nice cushion of income to at least make incremental improvements.

Quote from: vu72 on February 17, 2021, 02:10:03 PMTo be clear, this is all about athletics and not about the university in general.

Except that the process has demonstrated, once again, the questionable leadership of VU. The lack of candor and transparency around the decision is a bigger issue than the actual name change. Those are the things that actually cause harm to the long term wellbeing of the school.

As I said before, VU has attempted to avoid hard decisions for years now. Whether it was letting the law school run itself into the ground or proposing to cut profitable programs because they wouldn't need to cut tenured faculty.

Quote from: mj on February 17, 2021, 02:34:57 PM

Quote from: vu72 on February 17, 2021, 02:10:03 PMTo be clear, this is all about athletics and not about the university in general.

Except that the process has demonstrated, once again, the questionable leadership of VU. The lack of candor and transparency around the decision is a bigger issue than the actual name change. Those are the things that actually cause harm to the long term wellbeing of the school.

As I said before, VU has attempted to avoid hard decisions for years now. Whether it was letting the law school run itself into the ground or proposing to cut profitable programs because they wouldn't need to cut tenured faculty.

Well, everyone that made this decision is going to be gone in a couple weeks, as the new administration takes over. So, you won't have to worry about the same leadership. But, as we all know, the University did make several missteps over the last couple of decades. One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

And, it also must be noted that the University does not have to get 100% approval from alumni. Just because you didn't get asked your opinion doesn't mean there was a lack of candor and transparency.

Moreover, if you choose not to support the University because they changed their mascot, then you probably were not that loyal anyway. Someone who was really loyal to the University would be in favor of being more welcoming to more students. That's what a new mascot would do.

Quote from: mp91 on February 17, 2021, 02:44:35 PMJust because you didn't get asked your opinion doesn't mean there was a lack of candor and transparency.

My dude, you've missed the entire point. VU started removing the Crusader in 2018 but couldn't bring itself to be upfront about it. They created a committee but wouldn't say who was involved. They  sent around a push poll but never released the results. They blew an opportunity to bring the alumni together and instead created division. These are not the signs of a healthy institution.

Quote from: mp91 on February 17, 2021, 02:44:35 PMOne of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

Would have been nice to have an open and honest discussion so we would know why the mascot was changed instead of having to speculate.

Quote from: mp91 on February 17, 2021, 02:44:35 PMSomeone who was really loyal to the University would be in favor of being more welcoming to more students. That's what a new mascot would do.

I guess questioning the decision making process makes me "disloyal." Come on, man. Also, I hate to break it to you but I really think you're overestimating the impact of changing the mascot.

Gosh, you are so right, MP91.

You don't have to ask alumni our opinions. Adverse opinions are always a nuisance anyway.  Perhaps you should ban alumni from university twitter accounts.   

But asking customers for their thoughts is typically a good idea in the real world of business. Only in academia do the inmates (faculty and students) run the assylum. 

Quote from: crusadermoe on February 17, 2021, 03:46:51 PM
Gosh, you are so right, MP91.

You don't have to ask alumni our opinions. Adverse opinions are always a nuisance anyway.  Perhaps you should ban alumni from university twitter accounts.   

But asking customers for their thoughts is typically a good idea in the real world of business. Only in academia do the inmates (faculty and students) run the assylum.

Hey now, don't get it twisted. Of course the alumni should have input. But, people on this message board are acting like just because they did not get to express their singular opinion that the whole process is flawed. I'm just saying it's logistically impossible to have the input of every alumni ever. We know based on the actual facts that thousands of alumni were in fact polled. That's all I'm saying.

Plus, we've known for several decades that the name was under review. So, there was ample time for people to express their opinions to the administration. In fact, many of them did. When I was in school and several times after my graduation, several students and alumni voiced their opinions. People on here seem to have a selective memory and are only complaining now because they don't like the outcome.

Quote from: mp91 on February 17, 2021, 03:59:28 PM

Quote from: crusadermoe on February 17, 2021, 03:46:51 PM
Gosh, you are so right, MP91.

You don't have to ask alumni our opinions. Adverse opinions are always a nuisance anyway.  Perhaps you should ban alumni from university twitter accounts.   

But asking customers for their thoughts is typically a good idea in the real world of business. Only in academia do the inmates (faculty and students) run the assylum.

Hey now, don't get it twisted. Of course the alumni should have input. But, people on this message board are acting like just because they did not get to express their singular opinion that the whole process is flawed. I'm just saying it's logistically impossible to have the input of every alumni ever. We know based on the actual facts that thousands of alumni were in fact polled. That's all I'm saying.

Plus, we've known for several decades that the name was under review. So, there was ample time for people to express their opinions to the administration. In fact, many of them did. When I was in school and several times after my graduation, several students and alumni voiced their opinions. People on here seem to have a selective memory and are only complaining now because they don't like the outcome.

I don't think that you get the point that, yes, a vocal minority had made it known for several decades that they don't like the Crusader mascot, but the quick nature of how this seemed to develop in the last few weeks and how it was announced, is what is causing the consternation.  It is not being afraid of change, absolutely loving the Crusader as a mascot, or only complaining because folks don't like the outcome.  I would equate your attitude to being a sore 'winner' in this scenario, since you can't see past the forest for the trees. 

I agree that the lousy Crusader mascot needed to go...but the nickname "Crusaders" did not.  But I feel much better now that the gentleman said the name change will help solve our financial and enrollment woes.  Wow!

Quote from: valpotx on February 17, 2021, 04:10:26 PM

Quote from: mp91 on February 17, 2021, 03:59:28 PM

Quote from: crusadermoe on February 17, 2021, 03:46:51 PM
Gosh, you are so right, MP91.

You don't have to ask alumni our opinions. Adverse opinions are always a nuisance anyway.  Perhaps you should ban alumni from university twitter accounts.   

But asking customers for their thoughts is typically a good idea in the real world of business. Only in academia do the inmates (faculty and students) run the assylum.

Hey now, don't get it twisted. Of course the alumni should have input. But, people on this message board are acting like just because they did not get to express their singular opinion that the whole process is flawed. I'm just saying it's logistically impossible to have the input of every alumni ever. We know based on the actual facts that thousands of alumni were in fact polled. That's all I'm saying.

Plus, we've known for several decades that the name was under review. So, there was ample time for people to express their opinions to the administration. In fact, many of them did. When I was in school and several times after my graduation, several students and alumni voiced their opinions. People on here seem to have a selective memory and are only complaining now because they don't like the outcome.

I don't think that you get the point that, yes, a vocal minority had made it known for several decades that they don't like the Crusader mascot, but the quick nature of how this seemed to develop in the last few weeks and how it was announced, is what is causing the consternation.  It is not being afraid of change, absolutely loving the Crusader as a mascot, or only complaining because folks don't like the outcome.  I would equate your attitude to being a sore 'winner' in this scenario, since you can't see past the forest for the trees.

I understand what you're saying. I understand your argument. I just don't think it's very accurate. I don't know how you could bring up the "quick nature" of it when the name has been under continual review. It was reviewed in the 90s, the 2000's, the 2010s. So, I'm just saying a three decade reviewing process isn't "quick." But, if you did not receive the email, I can see how this could be unexpected. But just because something is unexpected, doesn't make the process flawed.

I don't know guys, I'm not trying to be a "sore winner" and I certainly do not want to be a university sympathizer (because they have made several mistakes along the way). No one really wins when you have to change a symbol of your university. I just think some people are being overly harsh.

There might be 7700 completed surveys (who even knows?), but even if there are I seriously doubt 7700 people completed them. There are too many people on this thread who indicate that they were left out for that to sound credible in the slightest.

But the mascot was not truly "reviewed" in the 90s, 2000s, or 2010s.  You can't say that just because it got brought up on occasion as a hot topic by a small group of students/faculty, that it has been reviewed for a few decades.  The survey was only recently sent out, and as others have stated that actually saw the thing, was very purposeful in not stating the intent.  Hardly anyone is going to say that they are more tied to the mascot name, than the actual university name.  To then utilize those results as a basis for getting rid of the mascot, is definitely false equivalency.  I guarantee if it would have been worded differently, tied to getting rid of the Crusader as mascot, the response would have been different, and people wouldn't be complaining about the process as much, since the survey message wouldn't be hidden. 

Tied to my grievance around the announcement and including an inconsequential SBP in the video, that could have been easily avoided, in just keeping to the Interim President's messaging.  That was just plain dumb.

Quote from: 78crusader on February 17, 2021, 09:56:12 AMI'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups. 

This is part of a Reuters article:

The Crusader, one of the white supremacist group's most prominent publications, published a lengthy endorsement and defense of Trump's message on the front page of its current issue under the headline: "Make America Great Again."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-kkk-idUSKBN12X2IG

https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/11/02/kkk-newspaper-backs-donald-trump/

Quote from: vu72 on February 17, 2021, 05:13:04 PM

Quote from: 78crusader on February 17, 2021, 09:56:12 AMI'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups. 

This is part of a Reuters article:

The Crusader, one of the white supremacist group's most prominent publications, published a lengthy endorsement and defense of Trump's message on the front page of its current issue under the headline: "Make America Great Again."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-kkk-idUSKBN12X2IG

https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/11/02/kkk-newspaper-backs-donald-trump/

Ah yes, the super popular Crusader newspaper which seems to have such a following that the only reference to it that anyone can find is 4 years old. Too bad they didn't name it The Bulldog.

FWIW, "the Brown and Gold" may be highly offensive in its own right. Gold symbolizes western civilization and values, capitalism, class distinction, power, wealth, privilege, elitism, and oppression. Brown? I don't know yet, but give me a little time. I'm sure I'll think of something.

Quote from: mp91 on February 17, 2021, 02:44:35 PM

Well, everyone that made this decision is going to be gone in a couple weeks, as the new administration takes over. So, you won't have to worry about the same leadership. But, as we all know, the University did make several missteps over the last couple of decades. One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

I believe VU has prioritized diversity in its student body with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts. According to "College Factual," Valparaiso rates above the national average in each of the following diversity categories: ethnic, gender, and geographic, as well as overall diversity. It states: "Valparaiso University is above average in overall diversity" and "Valpo's representation of the races is on par with the national average." https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall (https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall)

Is holy cross changing their mascot?  They are the crusaders too.  They play in the patriot league.  Maybe the league name also needs to be changed from patriot. 

I was not aware of this publication.  There is also the Chicago Crusader newspaper, an African-American publication, that continues to this day.  Too bad that connection was not made.

Quote from: oklahomamick on February 17, 2021, 06:49:31 PM
Is holy cross changing their mascot?  They are the crusaders too.  They play in the patriot league.  Maybe the league name also needs to be changed from patriot. 

HC kept the Crusaders  but dropped the Knight mascot in 2018 it appears. Their Crusader is a crusade for social change on something like that.

Quote from: IndyValpo on February 18, 2021, 07:40:08 AM

Quote from: oklahomamick on February 17, 2021, 06:49:31 PM
Is holy cross changing their mascot?  They are the crusaders too.  They play in the patriot league.  Maybe the league name also needs to be changed from patriot. 

HC kept the Crusaders  but dropped the Knight mascot in 2018 it appears. Their Crusader is a crusade for social change on something like that.

There's a 1% chance they are the Crusaders by this time next year.

Quote from: valpopal on February 17, 2021, 06:38:00 PM

Quote from: mp91 on February 17, 2021, 02:44:35 PM

Well, everyone that made this decision is going to be gone in a couple weeks, as the new administration takes over. So, you won't have to worry about the same leadership. But, as we all know, the University did make several missteps over the last couple of decades. One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

I believe VU has prioritized diversity in its student body with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts. According to "College Factual," Valparaiso rates above the national average in each of the following diversity categories: ethnic, gender, and geographic, as well as overall diversity. It states: "Valparaiso University is above average in overall diversity" and "Valpo's representation of the races is on par with the national average." https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall (https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall)

Anyone who has attended the University in the last 15 years Knows that diversity has been a major problem at the University. There was even a former basketball player who even admitted that part of the reason he transferred was because there were very few people in his classes that "looked like him" and he felt uncomfortable with the lack of diversity.

Another service college-simply says Valpo has "low" scores for racial diversity.

If you research further, there is a lot of demographic information out there as well that is pretty damning. Around 2500 students are white, while only 211 are black, only 334 are Hispanic, and a only 72 are Asian ( for the record, there are also around 300 that are race unknown/mixed). Even if you include the mixed and race unknown groupings, it's clear that the University has a diversity problem.

As a student, I know several minorities that felt underrepresented and felt uncomfortable having to be the only minority in the classroom. One of our professors would even call on the same kid over and over when we talked about poor people in Chicago, basically because she assumed he had expertise on the matter because he was a minority. Again, this Prof. incident may be rare. But still, if you're on campus, you definitely notice the lack of minority representation. Or, you could even look at the crowd at a basketball game.

Quote from: mp91 on February 18, 2021, 01:17:17 PM

Quote from: valpopal on February 17, 2021, 06:38:00 PM

Quote from: mp91 on February 17, 2021, 02:44:35 PMWell, everyone that made this decision is going to be gone in a couple weeks, as the new administration takes over. So, you won't have to worry about the same leadership. But, as we all know, the University did make several missteps over the last couple of decades. One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

I believe VU has prioritized diversity in its student body with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts. According to "College Factual," Valparaiso rates above the national average in each of the following diversity categories: ethnic, gender, and geographic, as well as overall diversity. It states: "Valparaiso University is above average in overall diversity" and "Valpo's representation of the races is on par with the national average." https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall (https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall)

Anyone who has attended the University in the last 15 years Knows that diversity has been a major problem at the University. There was even a former basketball player who even admitted that part of the reason he transferred was because there were very few people in his classes that "looked like him" and he felt uncomfortable with the lack of diversity. Another service college-simply says Valpo has "low" scores for racial diversity. If you research further, there is a lot of demographic information out there as well that is pretty damning. Around 2500 students are white, while only 211 are black, only 334 are Hispanic, and a only 72 are Asian ( for the record, there are also around 300 that are race unknown/mixed). Even if you include the mixed and race unknown groupings, it's clear that the University has a diversity problem. As a student, I know several minorities that felt underrepresented and felt uncomfortable having to be the only minority in the classroom. One of our professors would even call on the same kid over and over when we talked about poor people in Chicago, basically because she assumed he had expertise on the matter because he was a minority. Again, this Prof. incident may be rare. But still, if you're on campus, you definitely notice the lack of minority representation. Or, you could even look at the crowd at a basketball game.

I always thought that Valpo did a decent job at diversity. The international program in particular was very strong while I was there.
It's easy to look at the numbers and say we have a problem, but how does this compare to other school of similar size/stature?
"Enrollment in the 468 best-funded and most selective four-year institutions is 75 percent white, the Georgetown University Center for Education and the Workforce reports (http://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/SeparateUnequal.FR_.pdf)."
So it appears, based on your numbers, we are slightly better than the average. So not a Valpo "problem" but rather a common theme across all universities.

I am all for diversity and being inclusive, but what I am not for is forcing diversity. Fact is you can't force people to attend a University. Valpo is a small liberal arts college in a small Indiana town. Furthermore, our biggest programs (Engineering, meteorology, etc.) have higher participation rates among certain demographics.

If we want to focus more efforts on community outreach with demographics to improve our diversity, fine. If we want to invest in programs that will draw a more diverse student body, sure. If you want to give away free tuition or lower admission criteria simply to hit a self imposed quota, then I think that's wrong. If we think "Crusader" was keeping minority students away, I don't think there is anything I can tell you to convince you otherwise, but I strongly disagree.

My time and memories at Valpo were very inclusive and diverse. I can say I am proud of the diversity efforts during my time there and never once felt it to be a problem. Then again, I'm a white male, so I will fully admit my experience very well may have been different from others.

Agreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.' 

My roommate (Valpo athletic hall of fame) from my days up north at Valpo, has some good quotes in the NW Indiana times.

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/mascot-debate-at-valparaiso-has-proponents-and-opponents-just-as-it-did-in-the-1940s/article_cbb15837-c915-557e-9668-5194e3f60bd2.html (https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/mascot-debate-at-valparaiso-has-proponents-and-opponents-just-as-it-did-in-the-1940s/article_cbb15837-c915-557e-9668-5194e3f60bd2.html)

Quote from: oklahomamick on February 18, 2021, 07:38:29 PM
My roommate (Valpo athletic hall of fame) from my days up north at Valpo, has some good quotes in the NW Indiana times.

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/mascot-debate-at-valparaiso-has-proponents-and-opponents-just-as-it-did-in-the-1940s/article_cbb15837-c915-557e-9668-5194e3f60bd2.html (https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/mascot-debate-at-valparaiso-has-proponents-and-opponents-just-as-it-did-in-the-1940s/article_cbb15837-c915-557e-9668-5194e3f60bd2.html)

Mick - I'm always curious about former students who came a long way to go to Valpo. How did you know about Valpo clear down in the Sooner state? Did you have a family or Lutheran connection, did you tour the campus first or come sight unseen, etc.?

I was at the "shot" in OKC with my father my sophomore year of high school. 

That same year I went to Spain with Region III Olympic Development program who had Clint Dempsey (highest paid American soccer player) and a couple other guys who played in two World Cups.  So I had a lot of different opportunities because I played with some good players and I peaked during high school. (wish I was better in college).  I took an official visit to Valpo, SMU, and Liberty and unofficial to ORU a couple times. 

I enjoyed my visit at Valpo and liked the guys on the team.  My dad and I liked watching and rooting for Valpo in OKC a couple years before.  Everyone in OKC was rooting for Valpo.  The local news (we currently have 2 Valpo alumni weathermen) loved the Valpo story. 

Valpo was the top of my list out of my official visits.  Financially Valpo made the most since. 

Although it was very difficult for me (academically and distance) I would not trade it for the world!  That's the short version of my personal testimony. 

The high school that I teach at in Tulsa has sent two kids to Valpo.  They both studied Chinese at Valpo. 

Quote from: valpotx on February 18, 2021, 02:23:02 PMAgreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Quote from: JD24 on February 18, 2021, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 18, 2021, 02:23:02 PMAgreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Which amounts to 100 students, so not a large gap overall from an actual student count perspective.

Mick, you roomed with Giancola?  Your circle of friends wasn't that far off from my circle of friends.  I know that James Park used to hang out with Giancola a lot, as well as a few other baseball players.

Quote from: JD24 on February 18, 2021, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 18, 2021, 02:23:02 PMAgreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Although the US black population is 13%, the national high school graduation rate for African Americans is 10% lower than for whites. In some states from which VU obtains its enrollment, like Wisconsin, it is nearly 25% lower. Also, 10% of African American students attend Historically Black Universities, reducing the pool for other institutions. Add the fact that Valparaiso is an expensive religious-affiliated private university not located in an urban area and situated in a conservative state, plus competing with nearby Notre Dame, Butler, IU, and Purdue, all with more national recognition, and you can see that the number of realistic possible applicants is closer to the 7% than the 13%. VU should be applauded for prioritizing diversity with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts. 

Ah yes...those comments definitely prove why we needed a new mascot and kickname.

IMO, Valpo's student diversity is minimally acceptable. That said, Valpo's faculty racial mix is deplorable, at best. Black and Hispanic professors are so underrepresented (1.7% and 2.1%, respectively) that the numbers look like what I would have expected 30 or 40 years ago.

How ironic that the very people championing the cause about a mascot name under the banner of religious sensitivity are in fact poster children for "white privilege." Oh, and let me not forget to include the all-caring white male campus reverend that's been chirping about this.

These people should be a living example of workplace diversity. They should set the tone and lead the charge on hiring diversity. The number of minority staff members should be well above legally mandated levels in order to show true commitment to the cause of organizational diversity.

They should be that "beacon light that guides freedom loving people everywhere." But they're not. They're just run-of-the-mill workplace complainers, cherry-picking a minutiae social justice cause while daily benefiting from social injustice on an infinitely larger scale.

BTW I would love to know the racial demographics of the neighborhoods where these social justice warriors live and their children attend school. I'll guarantee they have white privilege written all over them.

Statistics discussed on here about struggles of diversity specifically at Valpo and also across all campuses actually support the name change. If diversity is a problem, why not try to change that by as many means as possible? Why just sit idly by and be like "well, other places are super white too, so let's do nothing about it"? That's not the type of values the University preaches, so if they are going to stand by these principles, they should also act to further them. And yes, faculty should be more diverse as well, great point on here. A mascot change should just be the tip of the iceberg and should be supported by other initiatives, like more diverse faculty.

Just to explore the diversity point a little more. Here are some actual facts that show schools Valpo competes with for students and how they are stacked up in terms of  student population diversity:

Valpo: 71% white
UW-Milwaukee: 66.7% white
Evansville: 65.7% white
Southern Illinois: 64.6% white
Indiana State: 63.9% white
Detroit Mercy: 60.5% white
Bradley: 56.9% white
Loyola Chicago: 56% white
Depaul: 54% white
Washington University-St. Louis: 53.2%
UIC: 32% white

As you can tell, Valpo is still on the wrong side of the spectrum. Now, don't get me wrong, there are certainly schools that are worse than Valpo, like Missouri State, Ball State, and St. Louis University to name a few. But, this clearly shows that Valpo should still continue to prioritize diversity. A mascot/nickname change is no panacea. It's not suddenly going to make up for other mistakes made by the administration. But it is a symbolic step in the right direction to try to make the campus more inclusive.

So, why not change? Taking out the process argument for a second because I understand that perspective (although I disagree with it because whether the review took two more years or two more months, the outcome was still going to be the same given the support for the name change from students/alumni overall). But, leaving that aside for right now... If you can do something small, why not? Why not take positive steps to change the University's public perception? Not sure how this is a bad thing.

Quote from: wh on February 19, 2021, 12:05:48 PM
IMO, Valpo's student diversity is minimally acceptable. That said, Valpo's faculty racial mix is deplorable, at best. Black and Hispanic professors are so underrepresented (1.7% and 2.1%, respectively) that the numbers look like what I would have expected 30 or 40 years ago.

This discussion should be about the mascot.

There is a diversity problem in higher education, yet it is not easy to fix for any college or university. Although the USA is about 18.5% Hispanic/Latino and 13.4% Black/African American, the numbers in the sciences are much lower. For example, according to the NSF https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/sere/2018/html/sere18-dt-tab004.html (https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/sere/2018/html/sere18-dt-tab004.html) from 2008-2018, the fraction of Bachelor's degrees in Engineering awarded to US citizens was 10.2% (Hispanic/Latino), and 4.3% (Black/African American). If you look at Physics, the numbers are 7.6% (Hispanic/Latino) and 3.0% (Black/African American). This means that the pool of potential applicants to PhD programs in such fields (and hence future professors) is going to look far less diverse than the average population.

Quote from: mp91 on February 19, 2021, 01:32:48 PM
Just to explore the diversity point a little more. Here are some actual facts that show schools Valpo competes with for students and how they are stacked up in terms of  student population diversity:

Valpo: 71% white
UW-Milwaukee: 66.7% white
Evansville: 65.7% white
Southern Illinois: 64.6% white
Indiana State: 63.9% white
Detroit Mercy: 60.5% white
Bradley: 56.9% white
Loyola Chicago: 56% white
Depaul: 54% white
Washington University-St. Louis: 53.2%
UIC: 32% white

As you can tell, Valpo is still on the wrong side of the spectrum. Now, don't get me wrong, there are certainly schools that are worse than Valpo, like Missouri State, Ball State, and St. Louis University to name a few. But, this clearly shows that Valpo should still continue to prioritize diversity. A mascot/nickname change is no panacea. It's not suddenly going to make up for other mistakes made by the administration. But it is a symbolic step in the right direction to try to make the campus more inclusive.

As we learned in statistics classes, you must look at underlying causes before coming to conclusions. Otherwise, the numbers are basically meaningless. If you look at the examples shown, almost all the other schools are in larger urban areas: Milwaukee 590,000; Evansville 120,000; St. Louis 300,000; Detroit 3,550,000; Chicago 2,700,000; Peoria 115,000. Only Terre Haute (61,000) and Carbondale (30,000) come close to Valparaiso (33,000), but both of those are state universities rather than religious private universities. Additionally, some of those cities have large percentages of African American residents—Detroit is 78% compared to Valparaiso's 3.5%—including Carbondale at 25%. None of this is going to be impacted in any way by a change of mascot. Empty symbolism is nothing more than virtue signaling.

Quote from: valpo95 on February 19, 2021, 01:35:29 PM

Quote from: wh on February 19, 2021, 12:05:48 PM
IMO, Valpo's student diversity is minimally acceptable. That said, Valpo's faculty racial mix is deplorable, at best. Black and Hispanic professors are so underrepresented (1.7% and 2.1%, respectively) that the numbers look like what I would have expected 30 or 40 years ago.

This discussion should be about the mascot.

There is a diversity problem in higher education, yet it is not easy to fix for any college or university. Although the USA is about 18.5% Hispanic/Latino and 13.4% Black/African American, the numbers in the sciences are much lower. For example, according to the NSF https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/sere/2018/html/sere18-dt-tab004.html (https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/sere/2018/html/sere18-dt-tab004.html) from 2008-2018, the fraction of Bachelor's degrees in Engineering awarded to US citizens was 10.2% (Hispanic/Latino), and 4.3% (Black/African American). If you look at Physics, the numbers are 7.6% (Hispanic/Latino) and 3.0% (Black/African American). This means that the pool of potential applicants to PhD programs in such fields (and hence future professors) is going to look far less diverse than the average population.

This discussion is about the mascot. One of the reasons why the mascot should be changed is to be more welcoming to people of diverse backgrounds. They are directly linked. Having a mascot that makes some from diverse backgrounds uncomfortable is directly juxtaposed to improving diversity.

And yes, it is a problem for nearly every school. There are also geographical and population influences. Although, just because it is a problem for many should not alleviate Valpo from trying to be better in that area. And, if you look at the statistics, from student population to faculty, Valpo is struggling with diversity in comparison to comparable universes. That's just a fact. This mascot change is a small step in trying to be more inclusive. Again, it's just one of many steps they need to take. But it's a start.

Scrolling through the comments it reads to me that alumni who don't like the change are critical of the weak administration bending to the desires and feigned outrage of a small group of people.  The virtues being signaled by the outspoken group wanting the Crusader to go away have very little substance behind them.  Somehow the problems that these people face are so very severe that the solution is a small college in Northwest Indiana changing its mascot?  Boy, there are people I've come across in my adult and professional life who would love to have problems with solutions like that!

Fact of the matter is, this modernist movement that has infiltrated VU and many other established institutions is a perpetually offended group of people who will only be happy when their actions are accepted by people who are morally opposed to what they are doing.  When the key to your happiness is being accepted by others, you will never be happy and, furthermore, you have likely not accepted yourself.

The best action the University could have taken is to level up and be honest with these people by saying that the offense they are taking is a choice and they need to choose not to be offended and, if necessary, part ways.  Unfortunately, they chose the path of least resistance and catered to this perpetually offended group of people.  This mascot change just kicks the proverbial can further down the road as the anti-Crusaders will only be appeased for a short time before finding another more substantial aspect of the university to be offended by and attack. 

We'll only know for sure in time but I think the University is unaware that their chosen path is communicating a choice to part ways with many of the alumni who are silently going about their lives being the best professionals, spouses and parents--basically the new age Crusaders crusading by example.

Quote from: valpopal on February 19, 2021, 02:02:59 PM

Quote from: mp91 on February 19, 2021, 01:32:48 PM
Just to explore the diversity point a little more. Here are some actual facts that show schools Valpo competes with for students and how they are stacked up in terms of  student population diversity:

Valpo: 71% white
UW-Milwaukee: 66.7% white
Evansville: 65.7% white
Southern Illinois: 64.6% white
Indiana State: 63.9% white
Detroit Mercy: 60.5% white
Bradley: 56.9% white
Loyola Chicago: 56% white
Depaul: 54% white
Washington University-St. Louis: 53.2%
UIC: 32% white

As you can tell, Valpo is still on the wrong side of the spectrum. Now, don't get me wrong, there are certainly schools that are worse than Valpo, like Missouri State, Ball State, and St. Louis University to name a few. But, this clearly shows that Valpo should still continue to prioritize diversity. A mascot/nickname change is no panacea. It's not suddenly going to make up for other mistakes made by the administration. But it is a symbolic step in the right direction to try to make the campus more inclusive.

As we learned in statistics classes, you must look at underlying causes before coming to conclusions. Otherwise, the numbers are basically meaningless. If you look at the examples shown, almost all the other schools are in larger urban areas: Milwaukee 590,000; Evansville 120,000; St. Louis 300,000; Detroit 3,550,000; Chicago 2,700,000; Peoria 115,000. Only Terre Haute (61,000) and Carbondale (30,000) come close to Valparaiso (33,000), but both of those are state universities rather than religious private universities. Additionally, some of those cities have large percentages of African American residents—Detroit is 78% compared to Valparaiso's 3.5%—including Carbondale at 25%. None of this is going to be impacted in any way by a change of mascot. Empty symbolism is nothing more than virtue signaling.

Of course, there are several factors at play, from geography to population demographics. But, these are the universities Valpo is competing with. No matter their location. So, that's why they were chosen. You have to look at Valpo's competition. Most of our competition is not private religious institution, its other Midwestern institutions of similar stature. That's what most of these universities are. Similarly, most of Valpo's students don't come from the town of Valparaiso. They are drawing people from Milwaukee, St. Louis, Chicago, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, etc. Another reason why the schools were chosen.

When you're comparing institutions, you can't just compare the demographics of the city they are in. You have to look at the bigger picture. So yes, you are right, you have to look at specific comparables. That's what I did. (PS – that's not what virtue signaling is).

And, as for vuor63, telling people that they should just "choose not to be offended" is ridiculous. We have no right to tell someone else how they should feel. That's like saying people who are LGBT should just "choose to be straight." Or that people who are Republican should just "choose to be Democrats." You are what you are and everyone has a right to their own opinions.Much the same way everyone has an opinion on this matter. Everyone should respect another person's opinion and feel free to debate the merits in a respectable way. You can't just say being offended is your problem so we should just ignore every single person who was ever offended.

It's also funny that you are complaining about people being offended when you are in fact are  offended, complaining about the mascot change. You say it's a "modernist movement" but the name has been reviewed dating back to the 90s, it's nothing new. The name change has a purpose. You act like people just wake up in the morning looking for something to protest against. That's not true and it's belittling to those who have been ignored.

You say you have seen little substantial arguments but the same could be said for you. You have offered no substantive argument. All you have said is we should ignore people's opinions.

https://omny.fm/shows/union-street-hoops/bonus-interview-kaitlyn-steinhiser

Quote from: mp91 on February 19, 2021, 02:32:20 PM

Quote from: valpopal on February 19, 2021, 02:02:59 PM
None of this is going to be impacted in any way by a change of mascot. Empty symbolism is nothing more than virtue signaling.

(PS – that's not what virtue signaling is).

Empty symbolism absolutely fits the "virtue signaling" definition in the Urban Dictionary: "To take a conspicuous but essentially useless action ostensibly to support a good cause but actually to show off how much more moral you are."

The new President is Hispanic.  A coincidence?

Quote from: valpopal on February 19, 2021, 03:08:57 PM

Quote from: mp91 on February 19, 2021, 02:32:20 PM

Quote from: valpopal on February 19, 2021, 02:02:59 PM
None of this is going to be impacted in any way by a change of mascot. Empty symbolism is nothing more than virtue signaling.

(PS – that's not what virtue signaling is).

Empty symbolism absolutely fits the "virtue signaling" definition in the Urban Dictionary: "To take a conspicuous but essentially useless action ostensibly to support a good cause but actually to show off how much more moral you are."

I know what the definition is lol. I'm saying changing the mascot has nothing to do with proving moral superiority and is not a useless action. Changing the mascot has nothing to do with virtue signaling.

For the umpteenth time, the mascot has not been 'reviewed' since the 1990s.  A news article here and there, or small numbers of upset students/faculty, does not constitute a review.

Quote from: valpotx on February 19, 2021, 04:06:02 PM
For the umpteenth time, the mascot has not been 'reviewed' since the 1990s.  A news article here and there, or small numbers of upset students/faculty, does not constitute a review.

You can ignore it if you want. But, if you think reviews in multiple decades means there wasn't writing on the wall, then you just haven't been paying attention.

Quote from: mp91 on February 19, 2021, 03:32:30 PM

Quote from: valpopal on February 19, 2021, 03:08:57 PM

Quote from: mp91 on February 19, 2021, 02:32:20 PM

Quote from: valpopal on February 19, 2021, 02:02:59 PM
None of this is going to be impacted in any way by a change of mascot. Empty symbolism is nothing more than virtue signaling.

(PS – that's not what virtue signaling is).

Empty symbolism absolutely fits the "virtue signaling" definition in the Urban Dictionary: "To take a conspicuous but essentially useless action ostensibly to support a good cause but actually to show off how much more moral you are."

I know what the definition is lol. I'm saying changing the mascot has nothing to do with proving moral superiority and is not a useless action. Changing the mascot has nothing to do with virtue signaling.

I have intentionally avoided criticizing the student champion of the mascot justice crusade (pun intended). I'm sure she's had her head filled with things like critical theory, the allure of socialism 101, the evils of capitalism, how Marxism is good; it just hasn't been managed right in the past, on and on. Now she's trying to put her newfound wisdom into practice, hoping to save the country from people like me and my ilk. So, she's doing a lab titled "Save my school from its systemic bigoted self." Once she gets out in the real world and matures, most likely she'll grow out of it. The people I find disgusting are the adults, who are intentionally and publicly throwing their employer under the bus for 15 seconds of fame and a desperate attempt to fill the void in their bottomless narcissistic supply tank. Shallow, self serving, myopic, bad mannered, rebels without a (legitimate) cause.

Quote from: valpotx on February 19, 2021, 12:39:17 AM

Quote from: JD24 on February 18, 2021, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 18, 2021, 02:23:02 PMAgreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Which amounts to 100 students, so not a large gap overall from an actual student count perspective. Mick, you roomed with Giancola?  Your circle of friends wasn't that far off from my circle of friends.  I know that James Park used to hang out with Giancola a lot, as well as a few other baseball players.

So because your percentage differential argument didn't work, you move to pure numbers. Nice.

Quote from: valpopal on February 19, 2021, 10:01:33 AM

Quote from: JD24 on February 18, 2021, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 18, 2021, 02:23:02 PMAgreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Although the US black population is 13%, the national high school graduation rate for African Americans is 10% lower than for whites. In some states from which VU obtains its enrollment, like Wisconsin, it is nearly 25% lower. Also, 10% of African American students attend Historically Black Universities, reducing the pool for other institutions. Add the fact that Valparaiso is an expensive religious-affiliated private university not located in an urban area and situated in a conservative state, plus competing with nearby Notre Dame, Butler, IU, and Purdue, all with more national recognition, and you can see that the number of realistic possible applicants is closer to the 7% than the 13%. VU should be applauded for prioritizing diversity with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts.

You can summon up all the justification you want but the poster's point about a differential of nearly 50% being "close" or whatever term was used is simply wrong or some walked past the Math building without walking in.

Quote from: JD24 on February 19, 2021, 05:01:16 PM

Quote from: valpopal on February 19, 2021, 10:01:33 AM

Quote from: JD24 on February 18, 2021, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 18, 2021, 02:23:02 PMAgreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Although the US black population is 13%, the national high school graduation rate for African Americans is 10% lower than for whites. In some states from which VU obtains its enrollment, like Wisconsin, it is nearly 25% lower. Also, 10% of African American students attend Historically Black Universities, reducing the pool for other institutions. Add the fact that Valparaiso is an expensive religious-affiliated private university not located in an urban area and situated in a conservative state, plus competing with nearby Notre Dame, Butler, IU, and Purdue, all with more national recognition, and you can see that the number of realistic possible applicants is closer to the 7% than the 13%. VU should be applauded for prioritizing diversity with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts.

You can summon up all the justification you want but the poster's point about a differential of nearly 50% being "close" or whatever term was used is simply wrong or some walked past the Math building without walking in.

You have made one assumption too many since you are addressing someone who spent a lot of time in math classrooms as a major and learned how mathematical numbers, especially statistics, ought to be understood in context when applied to real-world situations, otherwise they are basically meaningless. Given the stipulations I explained in what you call a "justification," 13% of the population translates to less than 10% when considering available possible student recruits for Valparaiso. As a result, 7% is closer than the unexamined 13% number suggests. Simple numbers are not always what they appear to be. For instance, if you have a 200 sq. foot dorm room of 20 ft. by 10 ft., that is quite different from a 200 sq. foot dorm that is 100 ft. by 2 ft. One is comfortable while the other is unusable: context can matter in math. 

Quote from: JD24 on February 19, 2021, 04:56:45 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 19, 2021, 12:39:17 AM

Quote from: JD24 on February 18, 2021, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 18, 2021, 02:23:02 PMAgreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Which amounts to 100 students, so not a large gap overall from an actual student count perspective. Mick, you roomed with Giancola?  Your circle of friends wasn't that far off from my circle of friends.  I know that James Park used to hang out with Giancola a lot, as well as a few other baseball players.

So because your percentage differential argument didn't work, you move to pure numbers. Nice.

My argument works regardless, but thanks for your opinion.  It is the same problem that companies have in hiring black STEM Engineers of various career types (I live this, if you really want to play rough).  If everyone is targeting the same D&I initiatives to increase their representation, and as Valpopal correctly points out, there is not a full representation in these career fields versus the actual US %, you can't just say 13% of the US is black, so you should have 13%+ students of that background.  As an example, if you think that 13% of Software Engineers in the US are black, you are sorely mistaken, so you have companies competing for an already small pool of candidates, thus lessening the % possibility that you can attain.

Quote from: Pgmado on February 19, 2021, 02:54:20 PM
https://omny.fm/shows/union-street-hoops/bonus-interview-kaitlyn-steinhiser

Always willing to listen to the other side, but the timeline that she describes will not help the thinking of those folks that thought the process was rushed lol.  I do really wish that you would have broached the topic of her sending a campus-wide email, doxing a fellow student, because of a 'like.'  That is just downright absurd, and I would love to hear why she had to name the student, versus just a general announcement tied to supported and non-supported free speech.  I would not care as much about her far left viewpoints, if it wasn't also tied to the whole doxing movement. 

SBP says she'd refute the notion that athletes support the Crusaders based on the survey data, then immediately notes she hasn't the survey data.

Which implies the interim president told her the survey data indicates athletes don't support the Crusader, but the interim president won't share the data even with her. 

Just as an fyi, I also just listened to the Hail Redacted episode, and found it funny that Kris Serra mentioned at the end, to let his kids 'see the Crusaders,' after having the opposite opinion of the mascot for much of the episode, and instead representing Valpo :)

Interesting podcast interview. I did not realize she is from the Michigan City Steinhiser family, (a large clan I might add). Nice people, good citizens, hard workers. She articulated her position effectively without sounding overtly confrontational.

That said, we live in the most divisive period certainly in my lifetime. People have had a bellyful of political correctness, cancel culture, etc. To think they wouldn't connect "cancelling" the name Crusader to this radical socialist/Marxist movement is either naive or disingenuous. Whether this issue may (or may not) have been a bone of contention for 20 years or 2 years is immaterial. It's no coincidence that the university's resident social justice warriors chose to ride the current wave of radical social change to pull the trigger. Its political to its very core.

If people keep citing the survey as one of the main reasons that mascot was changed then VU should release the results. Seems like a good way to be transparent and build up goodwill. 

In the alternative, maybe the media can find someone to leak a copy of the results to them.

Quote from: mj on February 19, 2021, 10:52:44 PM
If people keep citing the survey as one of the main reasons that mascot was changed then VU should release the results. Seems like a good way to be transparent and build up goodwill. 

In the alternative, maybe the media can find someone to leak a copy of the results to them.

If the SBP, who was on the video, hasn't seen the results, I highly doubt those results are getting leaked.

Honestly, I'm so over this survey. What I'd be focused on is who decided in 2018 to tell athletics to dial back using it on the website. Where did that directive come from? Because that came before all the resolutions, petitions and task forces.

I've got one more bonus episode on this coming next week.

Quote from: Pgmado on February 19, 2021, 11:12:57 PM

Quote from: mj on February 19, 2021, 10:52:44 PM
If people keep citing the survey as one of the main reasons that mascot was changed then VU should release the results. Seems like a good way to be transparent and build up goodwill. 

In the alternative, maybe the media can find someone to leak a copy of the results to them.

If the SBP, who was on the video, hasn't seen the results, I highly doubt those results are getting leaked.

Honestly, I'm so over this survey. What I'd be focused on is who decided in 2018 to tell athletics to dial back using it on the website. Where did that directive come from? Because that came before all the resolutions, petitions and task forces.

I've got one more bonus episode on this coming next week.

You should get some of the former Crusader mascot actors/cheerleaders to chime in.  I remember the guy that shared the mascot for a few years during our time on campus, and Jason took pride in being the Little Caesar's guy in a suit of armor :)

Quote from: valpotx on February 20, 2021, 12:36:41 AM

Quote from: Pgmado on February 19, 2021, 11:12:57 PM

Quote from: mj on February 19, 2021, 10:52:44 PM
If people keep citing the survey as one of the main reasons that mascot was changed then VU should release the results. Seems like a good way to be transparent and build up goodwill. 

In the alternative, maybe the media can find someone to leak a copy of the results to them.

If the SBP, who was on the video, hasn't seen the results, I highly doubt those results are getting leaked.

Honestly, I'm so over this survey. What I'd be focused on is who decided in 2018 to tell athletics to dial back using it on the website. Where did that directive come from? Because that came before all the resolutions, petitions and task forces.

I've got one more bonus episode on this coming next week.

You should get some of the former Crusader mascot actors/cheerleaders to chime in.  I remember the guy that shared the mascot for a few years during our time on campus, and Jason took pride in being the Little Caesar's guy in a suit of armor :)

That's coming.

Can we move on?

The decision has been made.

Some on the forum approve of the decision; some are insulted and are angry about it; some really don't care about the mascot, but are bothered by the process; and others just don't care.

After twelve pages, it seems that no one's mind is going to change, and the conversation is devolving into personal attacks. When I log on to the forum I would like to read about Valpo basketball.

Is there a game tomorrow?

Quote from: humbleopinion on February 20, 2021, 07:33:30 AM
Can we move on?

The decision has been made.

Some on the forum approve of the decision; some are insulted and are angry about it; some really don't care about the mascot, but are bothered by the process; and others just don't care.

After twelve pages, it seems that no one's mind is going to change, and the conversation is devolving into personal attacks. When I log on to the forum I would like to read about Valpo basketball.

Is there a game tomorrow?

This is rich from someone who has made a number of anti-Crusader posts with a couple including insults and who claims everyone he knows—spanning "six decades of alums"—supports the change except for those few on this forum who are "people who want to cling to the Crusader."

I certainly apologize if anyone felt insulted -- it certainly wasn't my intent.

I guess you missed my point about the six decades.  I wanted to demonstrate how polarized our social circles have become and the social circle that this forum provides is the one that offers viewpoints other than the alumni whom I know.

Woke At Last: Indiana's Valparaiso University Cancels Crusader Nickname and Mascot

BY ROBERT SPENCER FEB 13, 2021 3:51 PM ET

"...It is undeniable that the Crusaders committed many atrocities. So did their jihadi opponents. But in the main, the Crusader endeavor was not an exercise in imperialism or racism, but an attempt to protect Christians from jihad attacks.

So why shouldn't Valparaiso University have a Crusader mascot and take pride in its own culture and heritage? Because that culture is spent, and weak, and confused, and anxious to appease a much more confident alternative culture that regards the Crusades as an affront.

The West continues its cultural self-abnegation in the face of the chimera of "Islamophobia" — a propaganda neologism designed to make people ashamed of defending themselves and their homeland against a newly aggressive Islamic jihad..."

https://pjmedia.com/culture/robert-spencer/2021/02/13/woke-at-last-indianas-valparaiso-university-cancels-crusader-nickname-and-mascot-n1425449

humbleopinion's last 9 posts on this site are in this thread.

If ending discussion is so important (a topic you have the ability and option not to view), the solution would be to generate basketball discussion yourself instead of telling others what they can or can't talk about.  :thumbsup:

With all due respect to humbleopinion, you don't have to read this thread.  Tied to the political thread section on this forum, I only click on the thread to get it off the unread/highlighted status, similar to what I do with unopened emails in my work inbox each day, as I hate seeing unopened items :).  I don't actually look at the content in those threads, which is the same choice you have on this topic.  It isn't simply, "it's done, get over it."  Feel free to take your ball and go home with it, but there are plenty of others left for the rest of us to continue playing.

Can we upgrade facilities now? It's well overdue.

Jumped on the Valpo website just now and I wanted to know how "Life at Valpo" was going.  Clicked on the link and it brought me to a page where I could click on "Athletics" Now what shocked me the most was not that I counted the word Crusader 3 times and the world Crusaderette 6 times on this web page but rather a picture of JFL going to the hoop.
C'MON MAN!!!!!
It's 2021 and we are Crusaderless and JFL does not play for Valpo anymore!!!
BTW...check our the great pic on the same page of our mens soccer team in action. :-[

https://www.valpo.edu/life-at-valpo/

Quote from: VALPO LI on February 20, 2021, 04:56:18 PM
Jumped on the Valpo website just now and I wanted to know how "Life at Valpo" was going.  Clicked on the link and it brought me to a page where I could click on "Athletics" Now what shocked me the most was not that I counted the word Crusader 3 times and the world Crusaderette 6 times on this web page but rather a picture of JFL going to the hoop.
C'MON MAN!!!!!
It's 2021 and we are Crusaderless and JFL does not play for Valpo anymore!!!
BTW...check our the great pic on the same page of our mens soccer team in action. :-[

https://www.valpo.edu/life-at-valpo/ (https://www.valpo.edu/life-at-valpo/)

...and under "Life at Valpo" there is a wonderful image of a fantastic crowd in a deliriously happy and packed ARC...including a fanatic student section...and the full pep band...watching a terrific winning team...on television in a national postseason tournament...and nobody is wearing a mask...and no one is worried about shouting "Go Crusaders"...and the great inflatable Crusader is gazing down upon it all as if in approval, unaware of its fate...and I can just about make myself out, likely smiling, beside other Crusader fans in the picture...and I'm recalling the sensational atmosphere...and I'm already feeling nostalgia on so many fronts...and I'm wondering what if the golden age of VU basketball has passed...and frustrated by all this, I'm reminded of the famous last line of The Great Gatsby: "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past"...and I swear, though I know exactly which university administrator to tell of its presence for deletion, I'm not informing anyone at the university about this photo lingering on the website...and yet I'm dismayed about the inevitability of its eventual removal...and I'm just hoping the marvelous moment captured in this image on the page stays in place as long as possible!  ;)

Quote from: valpopal on February 20, 2021, 06:54:17 PM

Quote from: VALPO LI on February 20, 2021, 04:56:18 PMJumped on the Valpo website just now and I wanted to know how "Life at Valpo" was going.  Clicked on the link and it brought me to a page where I could click on "Athletics" Now what shocked me the most was not that I counted the word Crusader 3 times and the world Crusaderette 6 times on this web page but rather a picture of JFL going to the hoop. C'MON MAN!!!!! It's 2021 and we are Crusaderless and JFL does not play for Valpo anymore!!! BTW...check our the great pic on the same page of our mens soccer team in action. :-[ https://www.valpo.edu/life-at-valpo/ (https://www.valpo.edu/life-at-valpo/)

...and under "Life at Valpo" there is a wonderful image of a fantastic crowd in a deliriously happy and packed ARC...including a fanatic student section...and the full pep band...watching a terrific winning team...on television in a national postseason tournament...and nobody is wearing a mask...and no one is worried about shouting "Go Crusaders"...and the great inflatable Crusader is gazing down upon it all as if in approval, unaware of its fate...and I can just about make myself out, likely smiling, beside other Crusader fans in the picture...and I'm recalling the sensational atmosphere...and I'm already feeling nostalgia on so many fronts...and I'm wondering what if the golden age of VU basketball has passed...and frustrated by all this, I'm reminded of the famous last line of The Great Gatsby: "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past"...and I swear, though I know exactly which university administrator to tell of its presence for deletion, I'm not informing anyone at the university about this photo lingering on the website...and yet I'm dismayed about the inevitability of its eventual removal...and I'm just hoping the marvelous moment captured in this image on the page stays in place as long as possible!  ;)

It actual brings up a good point... at what point do we start "burning the books"... removing all the pictures, past references to the Crusader. If I remember correctly, there are some great pictures in the ARC and I'm sure a lot of them have the Crusader name or imagery in them. Do those get taken down? And I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, seriously, in the name of political correctness do we get to retain our history or does it get scrubbed so only the approved parts remain?

Quote from: wh on February 19, 2021, 12:05:48 PMIMO, Valpo's student diversity is minimally acceptable. That said, Valpo's faculty racial mix is deplorable, at best. Black and Hispanic professors are so underrepresented (1.7% and 2.1%, respectively) that the numbers look like what I would have expected 30 or 40 years ago. How ironic that the very people championing the cause about a mascot name under the banner of religious sensitivity are in fact poster children for "white privilege." Oh, and let me not forget to include the all-caring white male campus reverend that's been chirping about this. These people should be a living example of workplace diversity. They should set the tone and lead the charge on hiring diversity. The number of minority staff members should be well above legally mandated levels in order to show true commitment to the cause of organizational diversity. They should be that "beacon light that guides freedom loving people everywhere." But they're not. They're just run-of-the-mill workplace complainers, cherry-picking a minutiae social justice cause while daily benefiting from social injustice on an infinitely larger scale. BTW I would love to know the racial demographics of the neighborhoods where these social justice warriors live and their children attend school. I'll guarantee they have white privilege written all over them.

Well said.

Quote from: valpotx on February 19, 2021, 06:32:21 PMyou can't just say 13% of the US is black, so you should have 13%+ students of that background. 

If you can't "just say" and you're this well educated analyzer of comparative statistics, then why was it you that brought up the percentage relationship in the first place? 

In other words, 7% of the student body is pretty close to 13% of the overall population, even though it's really about 50% less if you roll out about 5 points of justification for the difference. Then it is spot on.

If you brought it up to explain why, of all of the college campuses I have at least visited, Valparaiso is the least diverse I've seen and in particular to people of color, I'm not sure your did a particularly good job.

To bring the point full circle...I have my doubts the nickname and mascot have nearly anything to do with the lack of diversity and, if the goal is to make the campus more diverse that there are likely other better options to do so. I'm not sure how much of a goal that really is.

Quote from: VALPO LI on February 20, 2021, 04:56:18 PM
Jumped on the Valpo website just now and I wanted to know how "Life at Valpo" was going.  Clicked on the link and it brought me to a page where I could click on "Athletics" Now what shocked me the most was not that I counted the word Crusader 3 times and the world Crusaderette 6 times on this web page but rather a picture of JFL going to the hoop.
C'MON MAN!!!!!
It's 2021 and we are Crusaderless and JFL does not play for Valpo anymore!!!
BTW...check our the great pic on the same page of our mens soccer team in action. :-[

https://www.valpo.edu/life-at-valpo/

Yes, but there is someone in a StL Cardinals cap and no one in Cubs or Brewers cap.  ;D

Quote from: JD24 on February 21, 2021, 09:03:24 AM

Quote from: wh on February 19, 2021, 12:05:48 PMIMO, Valpo's student diversity is minimally acceptable. That said, Valpo's faculty racial mix is deplorable, at best. Black and Hispanic professors are so underrepresented (1.7% and 2.1%, respectively) that the numbers look like what I would have expected 30 or 40 years ago. How ironic that the very people championing the cause about a mascot name under the banner of religious sensitivity are in fact poster children for "white privilege." Oh, and let me not forget to include the all-caring white male campus reverend that's been chirping about this. These people should be a living example of workplace diversity. They should set the tone and lead the charge on hiring diversity. The number of minority staff members should be well above legally mandated levels in order to show true commitment to the cause of organizational diversity. They should be that "beacon light that guides freedom loving people everywhere." But they're not. They're just run-of-the-mill workplace complainers, cherry-picking a minutiae social justice cause while daily benefiting from social injustice on an infinitely larger scale. BTW I would love to know the racial demographics of the neighborhoods where these social justice warriors live and their children attend school. I'll guarantee they have white privilege written all over them.

Well said.

One needs to be careful when looking at racial demographics of faculty. A university is made up of many divisions (of course, colleges - plus the administration) who each face their own labor market and each make their own hiring decisions. In many disciplines, including engineering and all of the business disciplines, there are extremely few black and hispanic professors or PhD students. Thus, when there is an opening it is virtually impossible to hire one (and, of course, they are in extremely high demand). For the argument made above you really have to look at the black and hispanic professors within the relevant college (which, in this case, is probably Arts and Sciences).

Note that if we (society) really wanted to solve racial disparity in professional fields, we need to create a pipeline of blacks and hispanics in the professional fields. And we need to recognize that the outcomes from this pipeline (e.g., more black and hispanic faculty) will not be seen for many years. Nobody wants to hear that, but the reality is that (for example) an engineering professor needs four years of undergraduate work, probably several years working outside of academia, and five years of PhD work.

The problems are real, but the real solutions are far more complex and take substantial time, attention and financial resources to solve. I am/was not a big fan of the Crusader, but I also think that some people look for "quick wins" to feel good about themselves or be able to express what they accomplished  - but these quick wins do little to solve the real problems.

Quote from: JD24 on February 21, 2021, 09:13:08 AM

Quote from: valpotx on February 19, 2021, 06:32:21 PMyou can't just say 13% of the US is black, so you should have 13%+ students of that background. 

If you can't "just say" and you're this well educated analyzer of comparative statistics, then why was it you that brought up the percentage relationship in the first place? 

In other words, 7% of the student body is pretty close to 13% of the overall population, even though it's really about 50% less if you roll out about 5 points of justification for the difference. Then it is spot on.

If you brought it up to explain why, of all of the college campuses I have at least visited, Valparaiso is the least diverse I've seen and in particular to people of color, I'm not sure your did a particularly good job.

To bring the point full circle...I have my doubts the nickname and mascot have nearly anything to do with the lack of diversity and, if the goal is to make the campus more diverse that there are likely other better options to do so. I'm not sure how much of a goal that really is.

Not an expert in comparative statistics, but I am an expert as it relates to D&I initiatives in company hiring, and how that filters down to the university level, as well.  My points all stand, past the initial % comparison that you have decided to solely focus.  My further clarifications were part of my original view/assertion, which to be fair to you, I did not decide to type out in full in my first comment, as to the reasons why I mentioned the % difference being negligible, when you look at the actual funnel of available talent.

VALPO VICTORY BELLS


Isn't that the longest standing tradition at VU and has nothing to do with the Crusader former mascot.



(https://www.valpo.edu/forevervalpo/files/2018/03/laptop_wallpaper_victory_bell.jpg)



USA! USA! USAders!

I will say that the Students as a whole LOVE the victory bell and it's something that means something to Athletes but also means something to students. They ring it when they graduate and when they get internships and do other achievements and they take pictures outside of it all the time.

You could do the Valpo Victory and "fly the Vs" and embrace a pretty fun campus tradition

Quote from: Pgmado on February 19, 2021, 11:12:57 PM
Honestly, I'm so over this survey. What I'd be focused on is who decided in 2018 to tell athletics to dial back using it on the website. Where did that directive come from? Because that came before all the resolutions, petitions and task forces.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you're suggesting that the decision was made to scrub the Crusader name and mascot 3 years ago, not now. Thus, the current survey didn't decide anything; it was merely part of a larger construct designed to give the illusion of a pressing grass roots movement with overwhelming student and alumni support.

In my world, we call this window dressing:

an adroit but superficial or actually misleading presentation of something, designed to create a favorable impression.

Ruse also works:

an action intended to deceive someone; a trick

First of all I am a big fan of MLB as many on the board will know.

But I was a bit surprised by his recent deferral of the mascot question as a "university" matter. He may have told to be quiet.  But the whole idea of a mascot is pretty superfluous other than to athletes and ticket-buying sports fans.  I don't see it affecting recruitment of chemistry majors or see that other non-athletes really interact with a "mascot" very often.

So who bought the silence of MLB...?....perhaps preservations of budgets was offered?  That leads me back to the question "WH" poses. Can we find "deep throat" who will tell us about the 3 years ago dialog that led to the big mascot disappearance.  What did the A.D. know and when did he know it?   :-X :-X   ::)

How long ago did they rebrand the crusader? I know that was when the shield imagery really took off across the campus as well and it seems like that imagery and stuff was used for sports teams as well.  I know that I remembered hearing around either the time of that rebranding or maybe it was during some other sort of athletic research that we were known nationally and regionally as "valpo" and that was the dominate way people differentiated us. My guess is that the salience of the mascot was already dying off.  I remember hearing that at least 2 or 3 years ago they couldn't even get students interested in being the mascot and so couldn't guarantee it could be at all the games.

Quote from: bbtds on February 22, 2021, 08:56:22 AM
VALPO VICTORY BELLS


Isn't that the longest standing tradition at VU and has nothing to do with the Crusader former mascot.



(https://www.valpo.edu/forevervalpo/files/2018/03/laptop_wallpaper_victory_bell.jpg)



USA! USA! USAders!

This picture is very telling.  Was the idea to reduce/eliminate the Crusader in place for many years?  The victory bell in this picture has the name "Crusader" engraved on the wood support.  It now says "Victory" so I'm guessing this was done years ago when it was relocated to the ARC.

Ha.  Film evidence of the conspiracy.     :lol: :lol:

But who is the 2d spitter?

I don't remember if it said Crusaders or Victory, during my time on campus.  PO?  I also don't remember it being a central part of the culture, by the old student union.  I can only remember a few folks ringing it as a joke, but not necessarily after a win.

Its' definitely changed since my time as well but now it's a pretty common occurrence to see all students ringing it and it part of the graduation pictures a lot of them take.  Its location has also helped with athletics cause they will ring it when they get off the bus or walk over there after games. I wonder if the location change really helped since that's where graduation is held and it's actually on the athletic facility's land.

I know they used to have the mini one they'd roll out on the court during Bugg and Broekhoff's tenure that would ring too.

I believe that picture of the victory bell goes back to 1968 when Robert Kennedy, former AG for his brother, John Kennedy, made a campaign speech at VU. The students camped out to get good seats in the Great Hall of the old student union. The union was where the Arts & Sciences Building is now. Robert Kennedy was assassinated weeks after this campaign stop by Sirhan Sirhan in Los Angeles. Rosie Greer of the Rams & Rafer Johnson, a great Olympian, were the ones who tackled Sirhan after he shot the presidential candidate.

Anyway the Victory Bell is a historic and neutral political symbol that Valpo could use.

Quote from: valpo84 on February 22, 2021, 03:26:19 PM
But who is the 2d spitter?

That is one magic loogie


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Quote from: valpotx on February 22, 2021, 04:24:17 PM
I don't remember if it said Crusaders or Victory, during my time on campus.  PO?  I also don't remember it being a central part of the culture, by the old student union.  I can only remember a few folks ringing it as a joke, but not necessarily after a win.

I don't remember it being part of the culture in the 1980's either. But, then again I remember the Smith years and the Lonesome Polecat.


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Quote from: valpotx on February 22, 2021, 04:24:17 PM
I don't remember if it said Crusaders or Victory, during my time on campus.  PO?  I also don't remember it being a central part of the culture, by the old student union.  I can only remember a few folks ringing it as a joke, but not necessarily after a win.

The Victory Bell wasn't anything special during my time as a student from 1999-2002. It was by the old union and I think I'd be afraid of tetnus from going near it. Once they moved it over to the ARC, it became huge. The football team runs over as a team to ring it after victories. The bowling team gathered at the victory bell the night they earned the No. 1 ranking in the country. Women's Basketball has bought into it. It's huge at graduation. I love it. What women's basketball has done has been great. Hell's Bells is now the theme song when coming to the court.

My time slightly overlapped with Pauls' and it was the same for it. It was over there but it wasn't a "thing" but now it's huge and I've grown to love it. I know when the athletic department did a mini victory bell giveaway it was a bit hit. It's be great to have a little mini victory bell on my desk to ring. It also is something that bridges the student-athlete to student gap.

I don't remember much about the crusader while i was there other than us thinking it looked like a cheap knock off of notre dames fighting Irish but I do think it also speaks to how things change on campus, symbols raise and fall in relevance and salience. Traditions take off and then die off and/or are discouraged by the university (rip spring weekend).

I'm not a language person, but bellringer in German might be Glockner or zvonar. The Valparaiso Glockners or Zvonars?

Or just incorporate Bellringers into Valpo culture to mean when a person/teammate does something above and beyond, others refer to them as "you aced that final/presentation, you're a real Bellringer.


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Quote from: bbtds on February 22, 2021, 09:20:07 PM
I believe that picture of the victory bell goes back to 1968 when Robert Kennedy, former AG for his brother, John Kennedy, made a campaign speech at VU. The students camped out to get good seats in the Great Hall of the old student union. The union was where the Arts & Sciences Building is now. Robert Kennedy was assassinated weeks after this campaign stop by Sirhan Sirhan in Los Angeles. Rosie Greer of the Rams & Rafer Johnson, a great Olympian, were the ones who tackled Sirhan after he shot the presidential candidate.

Anyway the Victory Bell is a historic and neutral political symbol that Valpo could use.

Except the speech was delivered in Hilltop, not the Union.  I know, I was there.

Quote from: vu72 on February 23, 2021, 12:16:10 PM

Quote from: bbtds on February 22, 2021, 09:20:07 PM
I believe that picture of the victory bell goes back to 1968 when Robert Kennedy, former AG for his brother, John Kennedy, made a campaign speech at VU. The students camped out to get good seats in the Great Hall of the old student union. The union was where the Arts & Sciences Building is now. Robert Kennedy was assassinated weeks after this campaign stop by Sirhan Sirhan in Los Angeles. Rosie Greer of the Rams & Rafer Johnson, a great Olympian, were the ones who tackled Sirhan after he shot the presidential candidate.

Anyway the Victory Bell is a historic and neutral political symbol that Valpo could use.

Except the speech was delivered in Hilltop, not the Union.  I know, I was there.

Was it Dem presidential candidate John Lindsay who spoke in the Great Hall?

Quote from: bbtds on February 23, 2021, 12:47:16 PM

Quote from: vu72 on February 23, 2021, 12:16:10 PM

Quote from: bbtds on February 22, 2021, 09:20:07 PM
I believe that picture of the victory bell goes back to 1968 when Robert Kennedy, former AG for his brother, John Kennedy, made a campaign speech at VU. The students camped out to get good seats in the Great Hall of the old student union. The union was where the Arts & Sciences Building is now. Robert Kennedy was assassinated weeks after this campaign stop by Sirhan Sirhan in Los Angeles. Rosie Greer of the Rams & Rafer Johnson, a great Olympian, were the ones who tackled Sirhan after he shot the presidential candidate.

Anyway the Victory Bell is a historic and neutral political symbol that Valpo could use.

Except the speech was delivered in Hilltop, not the Union.  I know, I was there.

Was it Dem presidential candidate John Lindsay who spoke in the Great Hall?

I didn't hear that speech but I do remember seeing his car pulling up to the union so I'm guessing that he did speak in the union.

I just wanted to pop on here because if I was considering Valpo a lot of comments here would completely turn me off from the school. So, I just want people to know not all alumni agree with people on here. The vitriol for the mascot change is outrageous. I can see maybe being a little upset, but calling people Marxist and blatantly saying that people who are offended should be ignored/marginalized is ridiculous and wrong. Not sure if it's a generational thing or if some on here live in an echo chamber where they shut out diverse viewpoints or what, but I'm really surprised by some's reactions. People on here act like the administration wakes up thinking "how can I sabotage the University today?" – It's just absurd.

People seem to be stuck in the past and refuse to acknowledge that universities, like people, must always adapt with the times. I loved the Crusader nickname, but it's time for it to go. It used to be a great mascot, now it's not. Just like how the Uhlan was a great Valpo mascot, until it wasn't. Just because the mascot was never intended to offend, doesn't mean it doesn't offend or make some uncomfortable. You have to focus on the present and its current perception.

The bottom line is: why would you want your university to be associated with religious oppression? Especially when the University preaches faith. Why would you want your university to be associated with a term co-opted and used by the KKK and other hate groups? Especially when the University tries to symbolize intellectual progress and doing good in your community. It's that simple. Because whether you see it this way or not, the term Crusader is associated with oppression and bigotry to some portion of the population. It is. Those are the facts. So, why?

Do a simple cost-benefit analysis. The University has a lot to lose in terms of PR and very little to gain by keeping the old name. Look at Washington, think about the negative press they endured the last decade because of the refusal to eliminate the Redskins terminology.

Whoever posted the statistics about diversity are completely correct. While diversity is a problem all over, Valpo is falling behind their competitors in terms of population and faculty diversity. These are facts. So if you can improve your public perception to try to promote inclusivity, why not?

The process argument is just a red herring. Everyone knows the name has been reviewed several times across the last several decades. People on here disputing these reviews either were not paying attention or are just trying to spread fake news. Just like their conspiracy theories about how the University was lying about the surveys. Come on guys, let's not engage in this type of reckless and unfounded rhetoric. A great deal of students and alumni have been supporting a change for a long time. Let's not pretend everyone is suddenly against a change. That's not reality.

And, finally, I am a conservative. So don't try to dismiss me or marginalize me by misusing politics to pretend my viewpoint doesn't matter. Because I'm on the same political side several people on here are. Not all conservatives are in favor of ignoring people's opinions on offensive language. By the way, what about the Valpo mascot change in the 1940s , was this because people were "woke" or they "gave in to the libs" – no, they did it because it was the right thing to do. So let's focus on the merits and not try to misuse politics just to use it as a crutch to ignore others. This type of "get off my lawn" rhetoric is not useful.

Okay, carry-on with the victory bell discussion.

Why was the Uhlan offensive, in your view?  The mascot itself was not offensive, but it was simply that it was tied to Germany in a time of war.  Technically, the Uhlan was a Polish-Lithuanian calvary unit from the 1700/1800s, which then became adopted by several European countries.  Do we ban words nowadays, just because they are tied to a North Korea or Iran?  No.  The Uhlan isn't any different than a Knight, Musketeer, or other common army unit of the past. 

Also, you are quick to criticize those on this board and in general that have the opposite opinion of you, as 'outrageous,' for expressing their viewpoints around something they are passionate.  You also mention that they are stuck in the past, implying that they are old.  I don't see your views as being any more or less productive than the views of the folks that feel differently than you do. 

I would also like someone to point me to any official reviews of the mascot that happened in the previous 20 years.  I will admit it if I am wrong, but I don't remember hearing of such things.  An article here and there, or passionate student/faculty opinions in The Torch, do not constitute a review. 

Just an fyi, the Redskins versus Crusaders argument is not the same thing.  Redskins is a blatantly racist name, whereas Crusader is not. 

Quote from: valpotx on February 23, 2021, 02:49:44 PMWhy was the Uhlan offensive, in your view?  The mascot itself was not offensive, but it was simply that it was tied to Germany in a time of war.  Technically, the Uhlan was a Polish-Lithuanian calvary unit from the 1700/1800s, which then became adopted by several European countries.  Do we ban words nowadays, just because they are tied to a North Korea or Iran?  No.  The Uhlan isn't any different than a Knight, Musketeer, or other common army unit of the past. Also, you are quick to criticize those on this board and in general that have the opposite opinion of you, as 'outrageous,' for expressing their viewpoints around something they are passionate.  You also mention that they are stuck in the past, implying that they are old.  I don't see your views as being any more or less productive than the views of the folks that feel differently than you do. I would also like someone to point me to any official reviews of the mascot that happened in the previous 20 years.  I will admit it if I am wrong, but I don't remember hearing of such things.  An article here and there, or passionate student/faculty opinions in The Torch, do not constitute a review. Just an fyi, the Redskins versus Crusaders argument is not the same thing.  Redskins is a blatantly racist name, whereas Crusader is not.

1. You're kind of making my point. The Uhlan was not a bad mascot until World War II. It was eliminated because, as you say, it was linked to German soldiers and the University did not want to be associated with German soldiers during the war. Seems pretty reasonable, right? The name itself is not outwardly offensive but only became questionable because of the context of the era. But, this is the same situation with the Crusader. The context of the current time we live indicates that the term is frequently used by hate groups. So, just like in the 1940s, the name was changed(At least in part)[/font][/color][/font][/size] to disassociate with said groups.
2. I said the "vitriol" and accusations were outrageous. I'm totally fine with constructive conversations and debates back and forth. But, claiming someone is Marxist just because they have a different viewpoint than you is outrageous, in my opinion. Some people on this board are acting like people supporting the change are radicals, when that's just not true.... When I say "stuck in the past" it does reply to time, but not necessarily someone being old. My point is that the Crusader mascot has a different contextual meaning today than it did 5 years ago or 10 years ago or 30 years ago. While the name was reviewed in different decades, the mascot's connotations have certainly ratcheted up over the last 10 years and that's why it was ultimately changed. Whether you graduated three years ago or 50 years ago, you can't judge the name based on the past, but the present. That's what I was trying to get across. 3. You can't say show me evidence of reviews, except for articles posted here and there lol. That's like going to trial and saying show me the evidence, but not the murder weapon or witness testimonies. 4. Indeed, the Redskins name is probably more inflammatory than Crusaders (although Crusaders is inflammatory). But, I mentioned the team because as a parallel it's important to consider how keeping a name with negative connotations can do more harm than good. Imagine if Washington had changed their name in 2010. They would have saved themselves massive public relations disasters and been praised for considering other cultures. Instead, they became the subject of jokes, criticism, and businesses began pulling sponsorships. I think Valpo should take note and make proactive changes instead of being stubborn and accruing potential damages.[/font]
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As I've written before, this doesn't have to be expensive or heart wrenching. It is simply a name. So, as with the change from the Uhlan to the Crusader, was simply a name change to match the political posture of the time as well as a certain war, that's all it was.  A guy on a horse still wore armour, still looked the same, it simply was a name change.

So I'm proposing changing the name from the Crusaders, to the Golden Knights.  It is relatively unique, still wears armour, and probably wouldn't even need a design change.  There are Knights of various nature representing Army, Central Florida and others.  The only Golden Knight I can find is referencing the Las Vegas hockey team.  That is very recent and thus presumably well researched to not offend others.

Pretty simple. I'll be passing along my thinking when the correct party is identified.

Quote from: Chitwood on February 23, 2021, 03:22:56 PM

Quote from: valpotx on February 23, 2021, 02:49:44 PMWhy was the Uhlan offensive, in your view?  The mascot itself was not offensive, but it was simply that it was tied to Germany in a time of war.  Technically, the Uhlan was a Polish-Lithuanian calvary unit from the 1700/1800s, which then became adopted by several European countries.  Do we ban words nowadays, just because they are tied to a North Korea or Iran?  No.  The Uhlan isn't any different than a Knight, Musketeer, or other common army unit of the past. Also, you are quick to criticize those on this board and in general that have the opposite opinion of you, as 'outrageous,' for expressing their viewpoints around something they are passionate.  You also mention that they are stuck in the past, implying that they are old.  I don't see your views as being any more or less productive than the views of the folks that feel differently than you do. I would also like someone to point me to any official reviews of the mascot that happened in the previous 20 years.  I will admit it if I am wrong, but I don't remember hearing of such things.  An article here and there, or passionate student/faculty opinions in The Torch, do not constitute a review. Just an fyi, the Redskins versus Crusaders argument is not the same thing.  Redskins is a blatantly racist name, whereas Crusader is not.

1. You're kind of making my point. The Uhlan was not a bad mascot until World War II. It was eliminated because, as you say, it was linked to German soldiers and the University did not want to be associated with German soldiers during the war. Seems pretty reasonable, right? The name itself is not outwardly offensive but only became questionable because of the context of the era. But, this is the same situation with the Crusader. The context of the current time we live indicates that the term is frequently used by hate groups. So, just like in the 1940s, the name was changed(At least in part)[/font][/color][/font][/size] to disassociate with said groups.
2. I said the "vitriol" and accusations were outrageous. I'm totally fine with constructive conversations and debates back and forth. But, claiming someone is Marxist just because they have a different viewpoint than you is outrageous, in my opinion. Some people on this board are acting like people supporting the change are radicals, when that's just not true.... When I say "stuck in the past" it does reply to time, but not necessarily someone being old. My point is that the Crusader mascot has a different contextual meaning today than it did 5 years ago or 10 years ago or 30 years ago. While the name was reviewed in different decades, the mascot's connotations have certainly ratcheted up over the last 10 years and that's why it was ultimately changed. Whether you graduated three years ago or 50 years ago, you can't judge the name based on the past, but the present. That's what I was trying to get across. 3. You can't say show me evidence of reviews, except for articles posted here and there lol. That's like going to trial and saying show me the evidence, but not the murder weapon or witness testimonies. 4. Indeed, the Redskins name is probably more inflammatory than Crusaders (although Crusaders is inflammatory). But, I mentioned the team because as a parallel it's important to consider how keeping a name with negative connotations can do more harm than good. Imagine if Washington had changed their name in 2010. They would have saved themselves massive public relations disasters and been praised for considering other cultures. Instead, they became the subject of jokes, criticism, and businesses began pulling sponsorships. I think Valpo should take note and make proactive changes instead of being stubborn and accruing potential damages.[/font]
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My point was that they were overreacting in 1940, as well.  The Uhlan was not a German word to begin with lol.  It was a type of Calvary utilized throughout Europe by many countries, and originating in Poland-Lithuania, and actually often made up of many Turkish soldiers.  If anything, since Poland was attacked in WW2, you would have been showing more solidarity with Poland by keeping the name.

On the reviews, a reporter typing up an article for The Torch, is not a review, sorry.  Laugh all you want, but someone just reporting on a vocal minority bringing up the Crusader mascot as offensive every few years, does not constitute a review.  I am talking about actual reviews across multiple spectrums.  I don't see how that is hard to grasp, to be honest.  This would be similar to any 360 feedback session that you might get in your place of employment, not just some offhand comment that a Project Manager on your team thinks that you are the 'best!'  In what seems to be your stance on reviews, if my teammates and co-workers were to mention how well I performed on a specific work assignment, and it occurred every few years, then I was thoroughly reviewed by my co-workers based on those specific occurrences.

Vu72, Knights won't work.  The Knights Templar also took part in the Crusades.  Inflammatory!! 

Well, at least this thread has returned to a discussion of the mascot, and we should all be in favor of more grace and charity toward those who may have a different opinion.

At this point, my larger concern is not exactly about the mascot. (The main reason to make the change is sensible given the negative baggage, the direction has been clear for some time, and the timing of doing this under an interim president is logical.) I lack confidence in the leadership of the University:  The prior leaders, including the President and the Board, utterly failed with the demise of the Law School. The interim president who made the mascot decision and annoucement was selected by the board and a board member herself. These are the same leaders who selected our new president - I hope he succeeds, yet time will tell.

Back to the mascot, even if making the change is the right thing to do, it was poorly handled. Several posters have pointed out the flaws in the "survey" and the shortcomings in the announcement. I'm still surprised that there is no acknowledgement of the positive history of the mascot. Instead, the announcement seemed to be geared toward those who were already supporting the change rather than finding ways to reach out to friends and alumni who had an affinity for the old mascot. There was little that pointed toward a positive future for the University. Apparently, neither our interim President, incoming President or Board seemed to care about these issues.

Quote from: Chitwood on February 23, 2021, 01:19:16 PM
I just wanted to pop on here because if I was considering Valpo a lot of comments here would completely turn me off from the school. So, I just want people to know not all alumni agree with people on here. The vitriol for the mascot change is outrageous. I can see maybe being a little upset, but calling people Marxist and blatantly saying that people who are offended should be ignored/marginalized is ridiculous and wrong. Not sure if it's a generational thing or if some on here live in an echo chamber where they shut out diverse viewpoints or what, but I'm really surprised by some's reactions. People on here act like the administration wakes up thinking "how can I sabotage the University today?" – It's just absurd.

People seem to be stuck in the past and refuse to acknowledge that universities, like people, must always adapt with the times. I loved the Crusader nickname, but it's time for it to go. It used to be a great mascot, now it's not. Just like how the Uhlan was a great Valpo mascot, until it wasn't. Just because the mascot was never intended to offend, doesn't mean it doesn't offend or make some uncomfortable. You have to focus on the present and its current perception.

The bottom line is: why would you want your university to be associated with religious oppression? Especially when the University preaches faith. Why would you want your university to be associated with a term co-opted and used by the KKK and other hate groups? Especially when the University tries to symbolize intellectual progress and doing good in your community. It's that simple. Because whether you see it this way or not, the term Crusader is associated with oppression and bigotry to some portion of the population. It is. Those are the facts. So, why?

Do a simple cost-benefit analysis. The University has a lot to lose in terms of PR and very little to gain by keeping the old name. Look at Washington, think about the negative press they endured the last decade because of the refusal to eliminate the Redskins terminology.

Whoever posted the statistics about diversity are completely correct. While diversity is a problem all over, Valpo is falling behind their competitors in terms of population and faculty diversity. These are facts. So if you can improve your public perception to try to promote inclusivity, why not?

The process argument is just a red herring. Everyone knows the name has been reviewed several times across the last several decades. People on here disputing these reviews either were not paying attention or are just trying to spread fake news. Just like their conspiracy theories about how the University was lying about the surveys. Come on guys, let's not engage in this type of reckless and unfounded rhetoric. A great deal of students and alumni have been supporting a change for a long time. Let's not pretend everyone is suddenly against a change. That's not reality.

And, finally, I am a conservative. So don't try to dismiss me or marginalize me by misusing politics to pretend my viewpoint doesn't matter. Because I'm on the same political side several people on here are. Not all conservatives are in favor of ignoring people's opinions on offensive language. By the way, what about the Valpo mascot change in the 1940s , was this because people were "woke" or they "gave in to the libs" – no, they did it because it was the right thing to do. So let's focus on the merits and not try to misuse politics just to use it as a crutch to ignore others. This type of "get off my lawn" rhetoric is not useful.

Okay, carry-on with the victory bell discussion.

You accuse those who offered up opinions contrary to yours as being "outrageously vitriolic" because some used derogatory social justice buzz terminology in referring to orchestrators of the Crusader name change initiative, some have claimed that people who are offended should be ignored/marginalized, and that in general they are "attempting to shut down diverse points of view."

So, what do you do to elevate the dialogue? You viciously attack the same people you call "vitriolic." You call them reactionaries and conspiracy theorists. You discredit and dismiss their opinions as reckless and unfounded. You claim they're out of touch and living in the past, including dismissive "get off my lawn" code for the "racist," close-minded, boomer generation.

Finally, you regurgitate some unconvincing, overtly simplistic arguments made previously and throw in a little "credibility by association" by referencing a business 101 buzz term "cost-benefit analysis" with no evidence to support it.

Let me offer you some free advice.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Yours is no more legitimate than anyone with whom you disagree simply because you feel strongly about it or just because the answer seems obvious to you. Most of what you call facts aren't; they're opinions that you accept as facts because they support your one-sided view of the world. Lastly, you have an arrogant, condescending tone that resonates throughout your diatribe that is inconsistent with someone who claims to be a voice of reason. Your tone needs to be more conciliatory and your comments above the fray.

Valpotx– I'm not talking about opinion articles. I'm talking about news articles about University reviews.

Wh –I am totally for diversity of views. What I am not for is reckless accusations. You even said several people used derogatory terms. That's what I was referring to. The "vitriol" as I said was in reference to calling people with diverse viewpoints as Marxist. That's just not fair. I think saying "get off my lawn" is nowhere near as ridiculous as calling someone a Marxist because they support a mascot change.The term "get off my lawn" is used for when people act like someone yelling at kids who cross their front yard. That's how a lot of people on this message board sound. A lot of people on here are standing on their proverbial porches, virtual signaling and yelling at people with opposing views. Saying "let's just ignore those students, they are a bunch of Marxists" is prototypical get off my lawn, virtue signaling moral superiority type of behavior. We should stick to arguments, not accusations and conspiracy theories.

Overall, I agree with you, we should take the high road on these message boards. I'm sorry if I came across as overly confrontational. It just seems like the minority viewpoint on this message board is not being heard.

Quote from: Chitwood on February 23, 2021, 04:50:26 PM
Valpotx– I'm not talking about opinion articles. I'm talking about news articles about University reviews.

Wh –I am totally for diversity of views. What I am not for is reckless accusations. You even said several people used derogatory terms. That's what I was referring to. The "vitriol" as I said was in reference to calling people with diverse viewpoints as Marxist. That's just not fair. I think saying "get off my lawn" is nowhere near as ridiculous as calling someone a Marxist because they support a mascot change.The term "get off my lawn" is used for when people act like someone yelling at kids who cross their front yard. That's how a lot of people on this message board sound. A lot of people on here are standing on their proverbial porches, virtual signaling and yelling at people with opposing views. Saying "let's just ignore those students, they are a bunch of Marxists" is prototypical get off my lawn, virtue signaling moral superiority type of behavior. We should stick to arguments, not accusations and conspiracy theories.

Overall, I agree with you, we should take the high road on these message boards. I'm sorry if I came across as overly confrontational. It just seems like the minority viewpoint on this message board is not being heard.

Right, that was my question.  Can someone point me to university reviews that occurred, prior to 2018?  Everyone keeps saying that it has been reviewed for decades, but opinion articles and sidewalk chalk are not reviews.  Any prior articles that I can remember, just speak to the reporter's or small number of student/faculty opinions, versus an actual university review of the name. 

Also, 'get off my lawn' is tied to calling out older people, and you know it.  There is no way around that aspect.  You don't have Gen Z kids saying, 'get off my lawn, you whippersnapper!'  That is where it comes from.  That was a microaggression ;).

I can't see them changing the school colors.  It has to be a significant cost to do so.  We don't have the money or it should be spent elsewhere.     

I bet the shield will be incorporated with the new mascot.  Too much money already invested in that also. 

But nothing surprises me with this university anymore. The impact of closing the law school sent shockwaves to prospective students and parents and hurt the Valpo brand for significant years to come.  Even if the % of law students was low vs undergrad it still hurt the Valpo image big time. 

For a small private school that is very expensive to go to with low enrollment I worry about it's viability. One thing everyone should agree on is that they better get their sh*t together quickly. If the new president is not successful they are screwed. 

   

Quote from: valpotx on February 23, 2021, 02:49:44 PMI would also like someone to point me to any official reviews of the mascot that happened in the previous 20 years.  I will admit it if I am wrong, but I don't remember hearing of such things.  An article here and there, or passionate student/faculty opinions in The Torch, do not constitute a review. 

I'll have a podcast tomorrow/Thursday going deep into the last review of the mascot.

To be fair, I'm in my early 40s and have yelled at people to "get off my lawn" a lot in the past year.

Quote from: valpotx on February 23, 2021, 02:49:44 PM
I would also like someone to point me to any official reviews of the mascot that happened in the previous 20 years.  I will admit it if I am wrong, but I don't remember hearing of such things.  An article here and there, or passionate student/faculty opinions in The Torch, do not constitute a review. 

Here is a brief history of this issue as I recall it. Please feel free to add or amend. The university examined reactions to the Crusader as part of a larger study of VU's image conducted in the mid-nineties. Despite a few negative responses, the positive responses were far more numerous, and it was clear that changing the mascot would not be beneficial, so it was not seriously considered. In 2000, the issue was raised again by a faculty member and some students. The university responded that the mascot was not going to be changed, and if it ever were, there would have to be an extensive study over a long period of time. In 2008, a group called Students Against the Crusader Mascot was formed. At that time, Mark LaBarbera stated he would prefer keeping the logo but changing the "Crusader" name. Heckler replaced Harre in the summer of 2008. In spring of 2017, a small faculty group formed a "Compassionate Campus Faculty" to have a teach-in and write a letter to the editor in the Torch demanding removal of the Crusader. Perhaps coincidentally in 2018, it was clear the university, obviously with Heckler's approval, had decided to quietly phase out the Crusader image and nickname, as has been mentioned elsewhere on the board, especially in non-athletics situations. Then in 2020, taking advantage of the current social atmosphere and knowing that past arguments against the Crusader would still not be effective, a group began the Coalition to Retire the Crusader and this time emphasized co-opting of the Crusader by "hate groups"—as mentioned by the Interim President, who also used their "retire" term, in her announcement—as a new tool to attack the mascot, add members caught up in the news of the day, and intimidate opposition. Moreover, having the decision made during the six-month Interim Presidency seemed opportune as neither Heckler nor Padilla would have to take the heat. (Also, due to Covid no fans or alumni would be on campus during this period.) Nevertheless, one could argue no openly transparent and comprehensive study was really conducted in this latest stage. For instance, deadline for completing the survey was only two weeks before the announcement was made.   

Thanks Valpopal, and PO, I look forward to seeing if your research lines up with the above.  If it does, it would seem that there wasn't any official review from the mid-90s until 2018, which would sync with my awareness of the issue, unless there were some background reviews happening that were not as publicized. 

PO article on potential mascots:

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/paul-oren-5-nicknames-valparaiso-should-consider/article_c95b389d-2f7a-5709-8e0c-4aefc61d9a9a.html?fbclid=IwAR0lZWrBGW5crHunqnP8ICoPQ0uzXHg78wjYmgiE9W9itjti0b8re477lbo#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

I don't think that we should base our mascot on an academic program.  There was a suggestion in the Facebook feed of something tied to the Meteorology department.  While I very much respect that program and the folks it has produced, the purpose of an athletics program is not tied to highlighting a single major. 

Also, I don't like the Koala.  Too cutesy for a mascot name, and nothing to do with the university or region.  On anything tied to the Dunes, why should we honor the region, when for the most part, it seems like the region does not want to embrace Valpo as the region's team, due to their dislike of VHS?

Golden Knights out of those suggested would be the only suggestion made that I'd consider and some I'd outright laugh at. Since that move may require only the name change and not necessarily a mascot change....that's my choice.

I agree that a color change would increase the cost and probably substantially.

If Valpo were able to incorporate the "Golden Knights" much like the Vegas hockey team, which includes a "V" on a shield and a mascot similar to the Crusader, money could be saved. In addition, this choice might receive the most positive response from those who consider themselves Crusader fans, perhaps more importantly unifying the community.

I don't hate the Shield or the DuneHawks...also someone suggested putting the Chapel or Victory Bell silhouette on the court, I'd 100% be for that addition as I think it would look great.

Quote from: JD24 on February 24, 2021, 10:58:04 AMGolden Knights out of those suggested would be the only suggestion made that I'd consider and some I'd outright laugh at. Since that move may require only the name change and not necessarily a mascot change....that's my choice. I agree that a color change would increase the cost and probably substantially.

I like Golden Knights and I tend to like the thought of keeping the same imagery and symbols with just the name change... Other Schools have done this in the past and it seems to be a good comprise.

Question, and its a serious one, would that appease those that are pushing for the change or would people complain that the new mascot is just a rehash of the old and not moving far enough away from the Crusader. Also, UCF was the Golden Knights until they changed to just "Knights" a few years back. Not sure if that matters, but its not a completely original name along with the Vegas NHL team.

Quote from: valpotx on February 24, 2021, 10:44:10 AM
PO article on potential mascots:

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/paul-oren-5-nicknames-valparaiso-should-consider/article_c95b389d-2f7a-5709-8e0c-4aefc61d9a9a.html?fbclid=IwAR0lZWrBGW5crHunqnP8ICoPQ0uzXHg78wjYmgiE9W9itjti0b8re477lbo#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

I don't think that we should base our mascot on an academic program.  There was a suggestion in the Facebook feed of something tied to the Meteorology department.  While I very much respect that program and the folks it has produced, the purpose of an athletics program is not tied to highlighting a single major. 

Also, I don't like the Koala.  Too cutesy for a mascot name, and nothing to do with the university or region.  On anything tied to the Dunes, why should we honor the region, when for the most part, it seems like the region does not want to embrace Valpo as the region's team, due to their dislike of VHS?

Based on past relationships I would agree. That said, if Valpo follows through in partnering with Grand Canyon Education, all future branding should reflect its desire to be the higher education center of choice in NWI. IMO selecting a nickname and mascot that in some way reflects a tie to the region is a marketing no-brainer.

BTW, once Valpo engages students from local communities, diversity is going to take on a whole new meaning. For instance, no longer will Valpo be able to mask its low level of black and Hispanic faculty members by combining it with a higher percentage of faculty of Asian and Middle East heritage. Everyone knows those groups are not underserved.

Quote from: vuny98 on February 24, 2021, 12:23:01 PMut its not a completely original name along with the Vegas NHL team.

It may be the only "Golden Knight" but along with Central Florida and Army there aren't many using the Knight image.  Compared to say, Bulldogs"  it is extremely unique.  Simple, inexpensive and exactly what we did when moving from the Uhlan to the Crusader.  Brilliant!

I would have to believe that the Vegas NHL team would pushback on any trademark infringement potential, should we become the Golden Knights, and not keep the current imagery.  If we try to adapt too much with that name and color scheme, they will be watching, based on what they went through to come to that name.  I believe that West Point even had some issues with Vegas, when their name was proposed.  If that is the end result, we should keep the current imagery and colors, or it would need a complete revamp, which leads to $$$.

D1 wise there are 5 Knights, Bellarmine, Fairleigh Dickinson and UCF are Knights, Army are the Black Knights and Rutgers are the Scarlet Knights.

Non D1's using Golden Knights are Clarkson, Gannon and the College of Saint Rose. Gannon is in PA while the other 2 are in NY

Quote from: IndyValpo on February 24, 2021, 01:29:21 PM
D1 wise there are 5 Knights, Bellarmine, Fairleigh Dickinson and UCF are Knights, Army are the Black Knights and Rutgers are the Scarlet Knights.

Non D1's using Golden Knights are Clarkson, Gannon and the College of Saint Rose. Gannon is in PA while the other 2 are in NY

Speaking of the UCF Knights, they used to have 2 mascots, a male named Knightro and a female named (brace yourself) Glycerin. A very busty female I might add. At some point they got rid of Glycerin. Not positive, but I think they still have Knightro.

A few thoughts from the many prior posts:

-Golden Knights seems like a really good choice and it has many benefits (retaining much of the recent branding, etc.). Assuming that trademark and copyright issues with the Vegas Golden Knights can be avoided, this is the way to go...and I hope that the "parties at be" don't overthink this.
-Avoid using names at other D1 schools (Golden Knights does this). Also, do not "invent" an animal (I assume there is no such thing as a Dunehawk). Kansas invented the bird to go with Jayhawk, but Jayhawk had an established historical meaning.
-PO's article talks about the transition at Marquette. Yesterday, someone involved in this years ago asked me about Valpo changing its name. This resulted in a discussion on the many problems Marquette encountered when they changed from Warriors. The Warriors to Golden Eagles to Gold to Golden Eagles story is just part of it. The university had major issues with students not supporting the change and with prominent alumni making Marquette look bad (a CEO and Marquette alum announced, with no advance warning and during his speech at the university commencement, that he and another alum would donate $2 Million dollars if Marquette changed its name back to Warriors). Today, we live in a very divisive society in which there is much faster dissemination of information, so any missteps can become big national issues. Valpo's administration now owns navigating the public relations issues without damaging the university's reputation.

Lastly, I am not sure how the Grand Canyon Education issue came into all of this - but I will reiterate my prior points that GCE is a fraudulent company and a highly ethical institution like Valpo should not be entering into any business agreements with them.

This probably should be posted elsewhere but it seems there are a lot of interested readers and posters regarding the Mascot name brouhaha here.  So now the fun begins, finding a new name.  I was recently in Amarillo, Texas and heard a news story about their baseball team - the sod poodles!  Below is a link on how they arrived at that name for their minor league baseball team:

https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/its-official-amarillos-new-minor-league-baseball-team-name-is-the-sod-poodles/

It's quite entertaining.  Why can't Valpo have a fun Mascot name?  Does it have to be so serious?  Anyway,  I hope the process of finding a name will be light hearted and fun.  It's interesting reading about some of the proposed names. 

Quote from: vu84v2 on February 24, 2021, 04:46:22 PM
Lastly, I am not sure how the Grand Canyon Education issue came into all of this - but I will reiterate my prior points that GCE is a fraudulent company and a highly ethical institution like Valpo should not be entering into any business agreements with them.

As I'm quite certain you recall, last September Valpo signed a memorandum of understanding with Grand Canyon Education to significantly expand Valpo's nursing program and on-line offerings. GCE has partnered with several well known first rate universities, such as Loyola. They are completely legitimate. Your acquisitions may have had some legitimacy at one time but they no longer apply. Don't take my word for it, research it for yourself. Ask yourself - what is the likelihood I know something Valpo's administration doesn't. But if you're that convinced that this organization is a sham, you owe it to your alma mater to let them know before they get taken for a ride.

In any event, one of the primary purposes of this partnership (if it even happens) is to tap into the millions of dollars spent on tuition at local universities in NWI every year. Why should IU and Purdue hog it all. I think it has real potential. Traditional 4 year universities are struggling. Valpo is trying to think out-of-the-box, and I admire your administration for doing due diligence on it.

In any event, it's completely relevant to the mascot discussion. If Valpo pulls the trigger on this partnership, no doubt there will be a major rebrand and marketing plan to support it. At that point, everything would be on the table, including something seemingly as trivial as a mascot name. Again, I think you know how the two things correlate. You just don't like it. True?

Interesting note in the article about the early 2000s pitch to change to the 49ers color scheme.

Of the suggestions, I'd write off DuneHawks right off the bat. I'd like VU to steer away from the trap schools like SEMO and Miami fell into using Hawks and putting an adjective in front of it. "____ Hawks" is a generic name at this point. Ditto anything Knights.

Kernels is unique and symbolic of local culture. No complaints here if that's the pick.

Valparaiso Deer Ticks?  Can't be any worse than Banana Slugs.

Quote from: wh on February 24, 2021, 05:38:55 PM

Quote from: vu84v2 on February 24, 2021, 04:46:22 PM
Lastly, I am not sure how the Grand Canyon Education issue came into all of this - but I will reiterate my prior points that GCE is a fraudulent company and a highly ethical institution like Valpo should not be entering into any business agreements with them.

As I'm quite certain you recall, last September Valpo signed a memorandum of understanding with Grand Canyon Education to significantly expand Valpo's nursing program and on-line offerings. GCE has partnered with several well known first rate universities, such as Loyola. They are completely legitimate. Your acquisitions may have had some legitimacy at one time but they no longer apply. Don't take my word for it, research it for yourself. Ask yourself - what is the likelihood I know something Valpo's administration doesn't. But if you're that convinced that this organization is a sham, you owe it to your alma mater to let them know before they get taken for a ride.

In any event, one of the primary purposes of this partnership (if it even happens) is to tap into the millions of dollars spent on tuition at local universities in NWI every year. Why should IU and Purdue hog it all. I think it has real potential. Traditional 4 year universities are struggling. Valpo is trying to think out-of-the-box, and I admire your administration for doing due diligence on it.

In any event, it's completely relevant to the mascot discussion. If Valpo pulls the trigger on this partnership, no doubt there will be a major rebrand and marketing plan to support it. At that point, everything would be on the table, including something seemingly as trivial as a mascot name. Again, I think you know how the two things correlate. You just don't like it. True?

When Grand Canyon split into GCE (for-profit) and GCU (attempted non-profit), they required that GCU purchase a large volume of services at whatever price GCE wanted to charge for many years. Yet, it is even worse - the CEO of GCE is the President of GCU. And that happened within the last five years and all of the same senior executives are still in place. Thus, GCE is corrupt at its core (and this is just one example). My accusations are highly legitimate today.

Have I sent my concerns about GCE to the senior administration at Valparaiso after the MOU? Absolutely. Furthermore, I know that various faculty groups at Valpo have done the same thing.

Should Valpo pursue a revised strategy in NWI and could online education play a big part of that? It is definitely worth seriously considering, though there are some big challenges with reconciling such a plan with how traditional students are served and the tuition they play. And doing so likely requires partnering with a third party, since they have needed skills and infrastructure. Companies like Everspring and Noodle are potentially good options.

You said GCE has a list of some impressive universities that it is working with. I know firsthand that one of them is seriously backing away from working with them and, instead, is working with another vendor.

I am not sure that I see such a strong connection between the mascot and offering a revised product in NWI, but I do feel that any press (positive or negative) about Valpo will affect attracting students to traditional and (newer) non-traditional programs.

The Golden Knights just makes to much sense.  You keep the shield and just add golden knights to the existing logo.  But how does the name and its meaning jell with all those who made the Crusader disappear?  Some may argue that the Knight has close similarities in attire, armor and appearance to the Crusader.  As stated in earlier posts they practically look alike.
The Kernel is unique and can be fun as a mascot rallying up the fans.  I could see a popcorn mascot being a hit at sporting events.  It's not intimidating but rather entertaining in my opinion for all ages which is inviting to see as fans.  Give the Kernel a fun name like "Kernel Saltie" and run with it.  But some may say is Kernel Saltie an official face we want to represent the University?
The shield logo is here to stay, but calling the university Valpo Shields just does not seem to flow.
Most can agree that the university needs to find a name that unifies all.  A bold statement and name that can represent Valpo without any negative impact.  A statement that can reflect unity and support without using overused terms like "We are Valpo" or "The Valparaiso University".  To me a united Valparaiso University works.  So my vote would be Valpo United! Keep the shield in place along with Valparaiso's own "Kernel Saltie" at games, charity events, and hospital visits bringing laughter and joy to others along with a strong message saying Valpo is United!

Not a big fan of the Kernels...it is just too odd. But I kind of like Valparaiso United (but prefer Golden Knights).

Odd or unique lol.
A lot of universities have mascots that are unique like Sycamore Sam, Brutus Buckeye, Sebastian the Ibis.  Why not have the best of both worlds.  A strong meaning and statement that tells all that we are a United University and a place where fans can get entertained and have a laugh.  A kernel of popcorn is clever, unique and not frightening.  I could see "Kernel Saltie" riding a tricycle during timeouts doing donuts around the center court shield  ;)

Quote from: VALPO LI on February 24, 2021, 10:20:54 PM
Odd or unique lol.
A lot of universities have mascots that are unique like Sycamore Sam, Brutus Buckeye, Sebastian the Ibis.  Why not have the best of both worlds.  A strong meaning and statement that tells all that we are a United University and a place where fans can get entertained and have a laugh.  A kernel of popcorn is clever, unique and not frightening.  I could see "Kernel Saltie" riding a tricycle during timeouts doing donuts around the center court shield  ;)

I think that you need to admit that you already have a 'Kernel Saltie' action figure or plushy in your home, and you are trying to make it stick with Valpo ;)

You know me to well my Texan friend lol.  I also have a Valpo Glocken sitting on my desk but I'm not ready to push Valpo to be a German Bell just yet.
Btw for those that missed it Salties are ships that travel the great lakes to the ocean.  Salties and Lakers are designed to fit through the locks of the St. Lawrence.  These ships come and unload and reload cargo at Port of Indiana - Burns Harbor.

Quote from: valpotx on February 24, 2021, 11:20:45 PM

Quote from: VALPO LI on February 24, 2021, 10:20:54 PM
Odd or unique lol.
A lot of universities have mascots that are unique like Sycamore Sam, Brutus Buckeye, Sebastian the Ibis.  Why not have the best of both worlds.  A strong meaning and statement that tells all that we are a United University and a place where fans can get entertained and have a laugh.  A kernel of popcorn is clever, unique and not frightening.  I could see "Kernel Saltie" riding a tricycle during timeouts doing donuts around the center court shield  ;)

I think that you need to admit that you already have a 'Kernel Saltie' action figure or plushy in your home, and you are trying to make it stick with Valpo ;)

I think you just made my point one that sfnmman made earlier why can't we have fun with a mascot.   Sports are for competition and entertainment purposes. A plushy figure sitting in kids dorm rooms or on our little ones toy chest may not be a bad idea.  Let's have fun with this.  The seriousness can stay in the classroom.  The message can be on the logo "Valpo United" and the laughs can be along the court or sidelines.

https://twitter.com/neohiosports/status/1361883941536464899?s=21 (https://twitter.com/neohiosports/status/1361883941536464899?s=21)

Redenbachers?

Mascot would be obvious...or maybe not.

Make sure a thorough minute by minute review of this guy's history before any change is made.

Quote from: VALPO LI on February 25, 2021, 05:38:58 AM

Quote from: valpotx on February 24, 2021, 11:20:45 PM

Quote from: VALPO LI on February 24, 2021, 10:20:54 PM
Odd or unique lol.
A lot of universities have mascots that are unique like Sycamore Sam, Brutus Buckeye, Sebastian the Ibis.  Why not have the best of both worlds.  A strong meaning and statement that tells all that we are a United University and a place where fans can get entertained and have a laugh.  A kernel of popcorn is clever, unique and not frightening.  I could see "Kernel Saltie" riding a tricycle during timeouts doing donuts around the center court shield  ;)

I think that you need to admit that you already have a 'Kernel Saltie' action figure or plushy in your home, and you are trying to make it stick with Valpo ;)

I think you just made my point one that sfnmman made earlier why can't we have fun with a mascot.   Sports are for competition and entertainment purposes. A plushy figure sitting in kids dorm rooms or on our little ones toy chest may not be a bad idea.  Let's have fun with this.  The seriousness can stay in the classroom.  The message can be on the logo "Valpo United" and the laughs can be along the court or sidelines.

Still not sure that I agree, but you are doing a great job of selling your idea and showing why it may have merit.

I'm all for considering unique/playful names, but kernels is pretty lame, in my opinion. That's not even a fun or excitable name.

For the record, not that it's the best option, but Duneshawks is available. No one has the trademark for that currently.

I don't have a lot of great ideas, but just going to throw some out there:

Valparaiso Voyagers? – Similar in meaning to Crusaders but less offensive and is unique

Valparaiso Storm or Golden Storm? – Not really big on meteorology names, but might be in the vein of St. John's

Valparaiso Trailblazers? – It's a name that's not often used, besides Portland and a few colleges/high schools. Valpo Blazers has a nice ring to it. And, kind of references the dunes



For the record, if Golden Knights can't work, you could just go  Knights. In fact, I like it better without being proceeded with golden

Kernels is growing on me. It is unique and relevant and the mascot is memorable. It will make a mascot top 20 or bottom 20!

I still like the Vultures.

Here's one for consideration - the Valpo tundra thunder!  All the old timers remember and braved the tundra.  "Thunder" pays homage to Valpo's great meteorology academics and alumni (and nasty weather).  Just a thought.

It has been said before, yet the Valparaiso "Lake Effect" could be an option. It is unique, region-specific, and is unlikely to offend.  ;)

What about simply the Valpo Shield 🛡. 

This would capitalize on the unique aspects of the VU shield of character. What would be unique as well is that the student body and the mascot could be "shield bearers" (Macedonian warriors). We could have more of a living mascot like the Leprechaun or the USC Trojan but a shield bearer. This mascot could also easily allow for us to have both a male and female shield bearer (dressed as Macedonian shield bearers).

Additionally, as graduates we are all 'armed' with the shield of character and continue to be shield bearers after graduation (like many of us considered ourselves crusaders after graduation).

I don't know if the image attached properly but Google Macedonian shield bearer to see a picture of the mascot.

How about the Valparaiso Chilly?  Let's see if anyone will put that together

Then the ARC can be renamed the Chilly Bowl. 

It's my subtle hope that we choose a name that is even more offensive for the pure absurdity of it all.

Maybe we can pair our primary school color Brown with another word. Skins, Shirts?
Or Gold with Diggers?

Or lets go a different route. We can be the Cara Dune's. Or the Grand Cherokees.

Last but not least, maybe the Mr. Potato Heads or Aunt Jemima's.

I'm not a huge fan of Kernels. Plus it's only a matter of time before an old Tweet by Orville Redenbacher surfaces that paints him in a negative light and thus our name being an association to him is called into question. (/s)

The University should change the mascot name to either:

The Valparaiso University Poltroons,

OR

The Valparaiso University Cravens.

BECAUSE

The people who run the university shamelessly caved to:

Political Correctness

AND

The Spirit of the Age

What wusses!

Quote from: Just Sayin on February 26, 2021, 09:59:28 AMThe University should change the mascot name to either: The Valparaiso University Poltroons, OR The Valparaiso University Cravens. BECAUSE The people who run the university shamelessly caved to: Political Correctness AND The Spirit of the Age What wusses!

I have no problem with Universities/Pro teams changing team names in general, when it makes sense. I for one, personally, did not find anything offensive about team names like the Redskins or Indians, but I understand that many did and over time that sentiment grew. So for those teams, it probably made sense.

For the Crusaders though, my personal view is that Crusaders not only was not offensive, but rather had very positive connotations to it. I would also wager that the majority of people did not find it offensive (assumption, nothing to back that up). That's where my problem for this whole situation comes into play. Everyone has a right to feel however they do. If you are offended by something, you have the right to feel that way. But we can't just go around changing everything in our society because someone is offended, because anything can offend anyone at anytime.

Now if the University would release the survey that shows 40%, 50%, 70% thought that the Crusader name was offensive, that would tell me, yes its critical mass and it may make sense to back away from it. But what if it was only 5% or 10%. Do we still change it? In today's society, unfortunately that answer is yes. As we are seeing with Uncle Bens Rice, Aunt Jemima, Land O Lakes butter and maybe the Jeep Cherokee next, things that I would argue the vast majority of people have zero issue with is now under attack and companies are caving to a small minority of people that have issue with it. The model for Aunt Jemima's family is upset that they are taking her off the box. They weren't offended, they were proud. Having a strong black woman as your brand image isn't racist, its the anesthetist of it. But, rather than stand up and say that, companies take the easy road and cave least they have any negative press. But what they don't see is the silent majority, that won't throw a fit on Twitter, that no longer connect with your brand.

That's what I worry about with Valpo. We could have stood strong and said here is what being a Crusader means to us, but we caved. And not only did we cave, we caved using the weakest possible excuse - Some hate groups use the term Crusader (I am highly suspect that this is actually the case in any widespread manner other than a few one off examples, but I will go with it for the sake of argument). With this excuse, we are giving power to hate groups to control how we view the world and what words/symbols mean. Whats to stop Neo-Nazi's, the KKK or just internet trolls from claiming anything is associated with hate groups. They already did it with the OK hand symbol. I was hoping my school would be the one to stand up to it, but we were not. Maybe it was the right call, maybe it wasn't a battle worth fighting. Or maybe I am the minority and just in my own bubble and don't realize the anti crusader sentiment is actually massive.

In the end, I will still support Valpo (and still call them the Crusaders under my breath). I hope we can choose a new name that can bring us back together. In time it will just be a memory. But there is a sour taste left in my mouth after all of this and I fear its a similar feeling many people have these days. Not just at Valpo, but across this country. In isolation, these changes are small. But they are building in numbers and becoming more frequent. Where will it end and what will happen when we reach the breaking point?

Quote from: vuny98 on February 26, 2021, 01:48:59 PM

Quote from: Just Sayin on February 26, 2021, 09:59:28 AMThe University should change the mascot name to either: The Valparaiso University Poltroons, OR The Valparaiso University Cravens. BECAUSE The people who run the university shamelessly caved to: Political Correctness AND The Spirit of the Age What wusses!

I have no problem with Universities/Pro teams changing team names in general, when it makes sense. I for one, personally, did not find anything offensive about team names like the Redskins or Indians, but I understand that many did and over time that sentiment grew. 

A vast majority polled would probably chosen not to change the WFT name given the choice. That doesn't mean it wasn't correct to change the name.

Quote from: JD24 on February 26, 2021, 02:16:32 PM

Quote from: vuny98 on February 26, 2021, 01:48:59 PM

Quote from: Just Sayin on February 26, 2021, 09:59:28 AMThe University should change the mascot name to either: The Valparaiso University Poltroons, OR The Valparaiso University Cravens. BECAUSE The people who run the university shamelessly caved to: Political Correctness AND The Spirit of the Age What wusses!

I have no problem with Universities/Pro teams changing team names in general, when it makes sense. I for one, personally, did not find anything offensive about team names like the Redskins or Indians, but I understand that many did and over time that sentiment grew. 

A vast majority polled would probably chosen not to change the WFT name given the choice. That doesn't mean it wasn't correct to change the name.

I never said it wasn't correct. Actually said it was probably the right choice. And I will give you this, if a minority group universally feels offended by something, then yes they should be accommodated in most cases (as long as accommodating doesn't trample the rights of others in return) even if the vast majority is not offended by it.


But even for the Redskins, I remember seeing a poll amongst Native American tribes a few years back where many were not offended (I don't remember the stats off hand but I believe it was more than half). Furthermore many Native American tribes liked the name and many Native American reservation high schools used that as their mascot as well. So if we can't even get the majority of the group that should be offended by something to say they are, then what are we doing other than appeasing the loudest voices.

The Drewsaders

People talk about changes being made because of wokeness or whatever. But this student offers a very thoughtful and detailed perspective on the challenges of being a muslim at Valparaiso, seeing the good – but also seeing that change is needed. I do not think that this student is suggesting that changing the mascot solves these greater issues (though he hopes it serves as a catalyst), but I do think that we need to look deeper and recognize that this is not just about being woke or an extension of cancel culture.

http://www.valpotorch.com/opinion/article_1262483a-77e5-11eb-bc5d-0f5ff03de310.html

Quote from: vu84v2 on March 02, 2021, 04:05:37 PMPeople talk about changes being made because of wokeness or whatever. But this student offers a very thoughtful and detailed perspective on the challenges of being a muslim at Valparaiso, seeing the good – but also seeing that change is needed. I do not think that this student is suggesting that changing the mascot solves these greater issues (though he hopes it serves as a catalyst), but I do think that we need to look deeper and recognize that this is not just about being woke or an extension of cancel culture. http://www.valpotorch.com/opinion/article_1262483a-77e5-11eb-bc5d-0f5ff03de310.html

First off, if what the student described is true, some of those things he endured are horrific. But from my perspective, this is a perfect example of Wokeness and cancel culture.

A student or group feels oppressed, so let's make false equivalencies and target anything and everything that can possibly associated with that oppression. What he describes in the letter are horrible acts from assh...s, whether done so out of ignorance or malice, they are unacceptable. Some seem like they could be misunderstandings, but things like the alcohol/pork are particularly bad. But he takes those incidents and makes a statement of fact that the Crusader is "a symbol of religious intolerance and oppression". What he endured and the mascot of the University are not related in my view. I understand the desire to equate them, but I don't see it.

Now I clearly as evident by my previous posts was not in favor of changing the Crusader, but I could have been brought on board. "Infrequent are the times when universities have a chance to institute meaningful and good change in their campus-wide culture". By pushing through a decision, without real debate/discussion, we have already wasted that opportunity. We as a University could have talked and come to a shared collective view. It wouldn't have been easy, it may never have gotten all the way there, but we could have understood where people were coming from. Why people like me really resonated with "The Crusader". How I have zero room in my heart for Islamophobia/racism, and see that part of me fitting in perfect with what a Crusader means to me. But instead we get letters like this to show a single view point that we can point to and say, "see here is why we need to remove the Crusader". Or "look, here is a tweet from 3 years ago of someone at an event that a white supremacist was at that was dressed like a Crusader. Also did you know someone at the Capitol said they were a Crusader." Well, thats enough proof for me, lets change the name.

It was a rushed decision, and like the student says in his letter, lets not pretend "changing our mascot solves campus-wide racism". Both sides, me included, can do better at listening to others perspectives. I appreciate this students story. I just wish it happened as part of the overall decision and not after the fact.

I agree with you on the premise here but I'm not sure the rush to change the mascot/image was entirely driven by that, though it is currently trendy to claim as much. I think it's about money, mostly money, new money, new markets ... dumping the mascot makes for good theater.

I agree that one single voice from a person who asserts these events occurred without corroboration ... it smells like the whole of a university is being swept under the bus because the majority not only tolerates these abuses but apparently isn't willing to step up to change it.

"So we'll do it for them."

I am still trying to understand what "wokeness" actually means, since it's not a word.


;D

Quote from: vu84v2 on March 02, 2021, 04:05:37 PM
People talk about changes being made because of wokeness or whatever. But this student offers a very thoughtful and detailed perspective on the challenges of being a muslim at Valparaiso, seeing the good – but also seeing that change is needed. I do not think that this student is suggesting that changing the mascot solves these greater issues (though he hopes it serves as a catalyst), but I do think that we need to look deeper and recognize that this is not just about being woke or an extension of cancel culture.

http://www.valpotorch.com/opinion/article_1262483a-77e5-11eb-bc5d-0f5ff03de310.html

These are serious, albeit unsubstantiated, claims by a Muslim student of repeated bullying, intimidation, and discrimination that paint Valparaiso University in a very bad light.

It also raises more questions than answers. Here's a few off the top of my head:
• We have no idea whether these allegations have any basis in fact.
• The student talks about how intimidating it is to tell someone, yet writes a letter to the editor citing specific details and signs his name to it. Im not sure that sounds like someone afraid to take this to the proper authorities. Not passing judgment. Just an observation.
• So, that raises other questions, like did he inform his RA or other "Responsible Employee? Did the Responsible Employee" report said incident(s) to the Valpo Office of Civil Rights, as required (see below)?
• Was a formal investigation conducted?
• What was the outcome?

"Responsible Employees include the following: faculty, adjunct faculty, administrators, department chairs, Discrimination Complaint Advisors (DCAs), resident assistants (RAs), and resident life and student affairs staff.

Responsible Employees must promptly report incidents of discrimination or harassment to the Valpo Office for Civil Rights. Failure to report constitutes a violation of this Policy and may subject the violator to sanctions."

If I'm interpreting this properly, any "Responsible Employee" MUST report this letter to the editor to the Office for Civil Rights. Did the faculty sponsor of The Torch report it, as he/she is required to do under the provisions of Title IX?

If this is legitimate, and again we as readers don't know, I see this as a cry for help by a student who allegedly has been repeatedly bullied in a cruel, dehumanizing way. It must be thoroughly investigated consistent with university protocols and state and federal government rules and regulations. It should be overseen by the top of the house.

One more comment - This issue has more meaning to me than our usual message board jousting (which is mostly for fun). As someone with a special needs brother who has suffered greatly from bullying over many years, I am especially sensitive to this kind of treatment. As an organization leader there is nothing I find more disturbing than workplace bullying and sexual harassment. It's even more important in school, when students are at such a tender age. Everyone needs to feel wanted and accepted. It is a basic human right that should be protected at all costs.

Ok, back to the mascot scrimmage.  ;)

Quote from: vu84v2 on March 02, 2021, 04:05:37 PM
People talk about changes being made because of wokeness or whatever. But this student offers a very thoughtful and detailed perspective on the challenges of being a muslim at Valparaiso, seeing the good – but also seeing that change is needed. I do not think that this student is suggesting that changing the mascot solves these greater issues (though he hopes it serves as a catalyst), but I do think that we need to look deeper and recognize that this is not just about being woke or an extension of cancel culture.

http://www.valpotorch.com/opinion/article_1262483a-77e5-11eb-bc5d-0f5ff03de310.html

I agree with a few other posters tied to this topic.  What this student attests to happening during his Valpo experience is absolutely terrible.  Rather than focusing on changing a mascot, the university should have been/should be investigating these types of allegations, as they contribute much more to Islamophobia than a simple Crusader mascot.  It seems Gen Z is not as completely woke as they claim to be, if this crap is still happening on campus.  I do have to admit my bias, and that I have a hard time with Gen Z, mainly due to the general disrespect I see in regards to how some view the older population, especially this whole, 'ok, Boomer' attitude. 

Do folks here find UT's Alma Mater offensive?  I think that UT is taking the correct approach, in studying the song's origin and historical use, and trying to 'fix' anything that might be negative, and turn it into a positive.  I think that this could have been done with mascot changes that are based on historical figures, outside of outright racist names like Redskins:  https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/30991657/texas-president-jay-hartzell-addresses-song-controversy-says-vocal-critics-do-not-represent-values-longhorn-community

Speaking of offensive, look at this 'holy crap' statement by Creighton's coach: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30992256/creighton-bluejays-greg-mcdermott-uses-racially-insensitive-analogy-team

Quote from: wh on March 02, 2021, 10:47:41 PM
These are serious, albeit unsubstantiated , claims by a Muslim student of repeated bullying, intimidation, and discrimination that paint Valparaiso University in a very bad light.

It also raises more questions than answers. Here's a few off the top of my head:
• We have no idea whether these allegations have any basis in fact.
• The student talks about how intimidating it is to tell someone, yet writes a letter to the editor citing specific details and signs his name to it. Im not sure that sounds like someone afraid to take this to the proper authorities. Not passing judgment. Just an observation.
• So, that raises other questions, like did he inform his RA or other "Responsible Employee? Did the Responsible Employee" report said incident(s) to the Valpo Office of Civil Rights, as required (see below)?
• Was a formal investigation conducted?
• What was the outcome?

"Responsible Employees include the following: faculty, adjunct faculty, administrators, department chairs, Discrimination Complaint Advisors (DCAs), resident assistants (RAs), and resident life and student affairs staff.

Responsible Employees must promptly report incidents of discrimination or harassment to the Valpo Office for Civil Rights. Failure to report constitutes a violation of this Policy and may subject the violator to sanctions."

If I'm interpreting this properly, any "Responsible Employee" MUST report this letter to the editor to the Office for Civil Rights. Did the faculty sponsor of The Torch report it, as he/she is required to do under the provisions of Title IX?

If this is legitimate, and again we as readers don't know, I see this as a cry for help by a student who allegedly has been repeatedly bullied in a cruel, dehumanizing way. It must be thoroughly investigated consistent with university protocols and state and federal government rules and regulations. It should be overseen by the top of the house.

One more comment - This issue has more meaning to me than our usual message board jousting (which is mostly for fun). As someone with a special needs brother who has suffered greatly from bullying over many years, I am especially sensitive to this kind of treatment. As an organization leader there is nothing I find more disturbing than workplace bullying and sexual harassment. It's even more important in school, when students are at such a tender age. Everyone needs to feel wanted and accepted. It is a basic human right that should be protected at all costs.

Ok, back to the mascot scrimmage.  ;)

To call someone's assertion a "claim" already acknowledges that it's points have not been proven. It should have sufficed. To repeatedly remind us, whether or not the purpose of the editorial was to incontrovertibly prove he was mistreated or simply advance a point, suggests to me that you would like us know that you seriously doubt the Muslim student's experience. I get it.

Furthermore, I suppose that wondering aloud whether the student sought and received justice is meant to cast doubt on the earnestness of his claims, but all we can know from the limited-length editorial piece is that it wasn't mentioned.  I'm not sure why you have such a strong need to question the student's experience, but I suspect it comes from the idea that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. The problem, of course, is that his experience may be quite ordinary.

Quote from: IndyValpo on February 25, 2021, 02:41:51 PMKernels is growing on me.

My grandmother used to tell me "you could grow potatoes in those ears." I hope you don't get corns on your feet.   ;)

Quote from: Valpower on March 03, 2021, 10:19:40 AM

Quote from: wh on March 02, 2021, 10:47:41 PM
These are serious, albeit unsubstantiated , claims by a Muslim student of repeated bullying, intimidation, and discrimination that paint Valparaiso University in a very bad light.

It also raises more questions than answers. Here's a few off the top of my head:
• We have no idea whether these allegations have any basis in fact.
• The student talks about how intimidating it is to tell someone, yet writes a letter to the editor citing specific details and signs his name to it. Im not sure that sounds like someone afraid to take this to the proper authorities. Not passing judgment. Just an observation.
• So, that raises other questions, like did he inform his RA or other "Responsible Employee? Did the Responsible Employee" report said incident(s) to the Valpo Office of Civil Rights, as required (see below)?
• Was a formal investigation conducted?
• What was the outcome?

"Responsible Employees include the following: faculty, adjunct faculty, administrators, department chairs, Discrimination Complaint Advisors (DCAs), resident assistants (RAs), and resident life and student affairs staff.

Responsible Employees must promptly report incidents of discrimination or harassment to the Valpo Office for Civil Rights. Failure to report constitutes a violation of this Policy and may subject the violator to sanctions."

If I'm interpreting this properly, any "Responsible Employee" MUST report this letter to the editor to the Office for Civil Rights. Did the faculty sponsor of The Torch report it, as he/she is required to do under the provisions of Title IX?

If this is legitimate, and again we as readers don't know, I see this as a cry for help by a student who allegedly has been repeatedly bullied in a cruel, dehumanizing way. It must be thoroughly investigated consistent with university protocols and state and federal government rules and regulations. It should be overseen by the top of the house.

One more comment - This issue has more meaning to me than our usual message board jousting (which is mostly for fun). As someone with a special needs brother who has suffered greatly from bullying over many years, I am especially sensitive to this kind of treatment. As an organization leader there is nothing I find more disturbing than workplace bullying and sexual harassment. It's even more important in school, when students are at such a tender age. Everyone needs to feel wanted and accepted. It is a basic human right that should be protected at all costs.

Ok, back to the mascot scrimmage.  ;)

To call someone's assertion a "claim" already acknowledges that it's points have not been proven. It should have sufficed. To repeatedly remind us, whether or not the purpose of the editorial was to incontrovertibly prove he was mistreated or simply advance a point, suggests to me that you would like us know that you seriously doubt the Muslim student's experience. I get it.

Furthermore, I suppose that wondering aloud whether the student sought and received justice is meant to cast doubt on the earnestness of his claims, but all we can know from the limited-length editorial piece is that it wasn't mentioned.  I'm not sure why you have such a strong need to question the student's experience, but I suspect it comes from the idea that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. The problem, of course, is that his experience may be quite ordinary.

Here's the way the poster who referenced the article framed the students "claim:"

"People talk about changes being made because of wokeness or whatever. But this student offers a very thoughtful and detailed perspective on the challenges of being a muslim at Valparaiso."

Clearly, the poster takes for granted that these things happened. To accept this at face value is to accept that a group of religious bigots perpetrated a hate crime. Once you accept that, it's easy to assume this is a bigger problem than simply an isolated incident against 1 student. And since we have no clue who these alleged culprits are, it could be just about anyone. It's also raises suspicion that the university isn't adequately protecting its minority students. So the entire university is under indictment.

At least your snarky post helped me learn something about you. You don't work in law enforcement, HR, or management, and you were home sick the day everyone learned the legal principle "innocent until proven guilty."

As the person who posted the article and made the comment referenced above, I did not mean to imply whether the student's claim was accurate. I have no way of knowing that. The letter referenced the student's perspective and offered a lot of detail where that perspective comes from. I also did not mean to imply that a few instances mean that this type of awful bullying and racism (if it is true) is systemic. While deeply unfortunate, it is not realistic in a population of over 3000 students that every student will understand what is and is not acceptable behavior.

Just received another Crusader Report email from MLB :). 

How about the 'Saxons' ?  These were the Germans that lived around Wittenberg.  Winner winner chicken dinner. Done.

Another Crusader mascot is going away.
https://www.columbusunderground.com/the-how-and-why-behind-capital-universitys-mascot-change-efforts-tm1 (https://www.columbusunderground.com/the-how-and-why-behind-capital-universitys-mascot-change-efforts-tm1)

Fyi, the volleyball net pole pads still say 'Crusaders,' as does the massive backdrop over the Mezzanine.  What stupid timing in the announcement on our mascot name.  It could have waited until this Summer.  Whether it was an Interim President or Padilla, it would have made no difference at that point.  People would have still been upset or supportive, if it waited until after the athletic season completed.