Horizon League happy with move to Detroit
Paul Oren Times Correspondent Updated Mar 8, 2016
Valparaiso men's basketball coach Bryce Drew could only let out a snide laugh when he was asked following Monday night's 99-92 overtime loss to Green Bay if the Crusaders would've won the game had it been held at the Athletics-Recreation Center.
The Horizon League made the decision to move the tournament to a neutral site this season, agreeing to a 5-year deal with Olympia Entertainment to host the tournament at Joe Louis Arena for two years before moving to the newly-constructed Detroit Events Center for the remainder of the deal.
The decision affected the Crusaders this year as they played their first game in a cavernous arena which likely didn't help shooting numbers as Valparaiso struggled to adapt to its surroundings. Green Bay, which played two games to get to the semifinal, has seen its shooting percentages rise with each game in the tournament.
"We didn't shoot the ball well (tonight) and I'd like to think we would've shot better (at the ARC)," Drew said. "That's an irrelevant question because it wasn't the case."
Before Monday night's games began Horizon League Commissioner Jon LeCrone addressed the media and spoke highly of the move to Detroit and the support the league has gotten from Olympia and the community.
"We wanted everyone to feel like a champion," LeCrone said. "That was really year one what we wanted to accomplish. We were focused on everything that touched the student-athletes. We're really proud of the work we've done."
Changes on Horizon?: LeCrone mentioned that there could be several changes coming down the line pertaining to the Horizon League tournament bracket or even the way teams schedule opponents during the conference season.
LeCrone and the Horizon League came under fire from Wright State coach Billy Donlon on Sunday afternoon as the fifth-year coach criticized the way the league handled the double-bye situation for Oakland while the Raiders were forced to play two games just to reach the semifinals, despite tying the Grizzlies in the standings.
"(Donlon's comments) were fine with me except I disagreed with the forum," LeCrone said. "We had a conversation about it. I have no problem at all with the issues he raised. It was on our agenda (this weekend) and we already knew we were going to discuss it. We'll look at a number of brackets."
LeCrone also alluded that the conference could rethink its scheduling, possibly doing away with the double round-robin during the regular-season. Valparaiso had a RPI of 18 when its nonconference schedule came to a close, and the Crusaders entered the Horizon League tournament with a RPI of 39 after having to play several conference bottom-feeders twice.
"There are different ways to do it," LeCrone said. "The double round-robin, maybe it's time to look beyond that. The NCAA doesn't require that. They just require we tell them how we're going to select our champion. We've never been shy about doing things differently."
Antigone want to share your thoughts on the horizon league Facebook page - they appear to allow anyone to post to it. ...
Go Valpo!
LeCrone also alluded that the conference could rethink its scheduling, possibly doing away with the double round-robin during the regular-season. Valparaiso had a RPI of 18 when its nonconference schedule came to a close, and the Crusaders entered the Horizon League tournament with a RPI of 39 after having to play several conference bottom-feeders twice. :'( :'(
HL sure didn't help us this year. Tournament relocation and RPI anchors killed our season that looked so promising with an RPI of 18! Has it ever been that high?
It's time to replace LeCrone.
Also, I have seen a couple times that this was Valpo's first game in a "cavernous" arena. The Q in Cleveland is an NBA arena so we had a tune up game (including all the empty seats) in an arena in mid-February. CSU scheduled 4 games there this year. We need to make sure in scheduling that we visit more bigger arenas (time to go back to Chicago Stadium aka United Center) or play in the Rosemont Horizon Arena it will really simulate the Horizon Tourney cause it's usually nearly empty if DePaul is still playing there.
And how is a non-double round robin going to work? So we might get bottom feeders 2x still and then face top division maybe 1x in year 1 and then flipped in year 2. This isn't the B1G where you get good RPI teams in the bottom half? The other alternative is to add better teams, not the NKUs of the world (which was vociferously opposed). We would be better off as an Independent (aka the new Notre Dame).
I notice by its absence in the commissioner's comments the need to develop and enforce OCSOS scheduling guidelines. The league could be proactive in this by working as hard as possible to initiate an early season "Challenge" series with a similar Mid-major conference.
The biggest lesson we and Oakland both learned (after the fact to the detriment of the league's NCAA seeding stature) and one that needs to be addressed immediately for next season's tournament is that the double bye suits a tournament where the #1 seed hosts; however, it actually is a liability for the #1 and #2 seeds when the tournament is at a neutral site -- especially one like the Joe. If they stay at the Joe, the HL needs to change to the MVC/WCC model with two play-in games by the last 4 seeds and then a standard bracket. The only difference I saw in the two conference brackets is that the WCC has a break of one day before the semis. That still means two games in a row to win the final. Wouldn't a 1 day break before the final be better for the finalists?
Maybe be relegate the bad Horizon teams to the Summit and have the good Summit teams (and maybe cut a deal with OVC too) advance to our conference. So you could have the highest RPIs playing each other during that year. If you can't keep your RPI above 100 each year, boom lower division. The Horizon, Summit and OVC divisions. The 3 conferences would need to recognize the need for having the best of the leagues play each other. Throw in some requirements for non-conf scheduling.
LeCrone is an absolute buffoon. He's an idiot plain and simple. He has completely ruined the integrity of the Horizon League. There was a time not too long ago the HL was damn close to being a top-10 conference. A lot of that had to do with Butler but there were other schools that were successful. Watching the game on Monday night I would cringe whenever they said the HL is as strong as ever. Are these guys idiots!?! You have perennial bottom feeders with RPIs well south of 250. NKU stinks, UIC stinks, YSU stinks, CSU stunk (this year). Every year the HL seems to have 3-4 teams that can barely muster 10 wins, including DII games. There is without a question Valpo deserves to be in the NCAA tournament, will they? No. LeCrone did nothing to help Valpo make it to the tournament. Instead Green Bay will get a 15 seed and will be one-and-done. It wasn't too long ago when the HL had 4 or 5 quality mid-major programs that would've been given something higher than a 15 seed. In 2010 there was Butler, Valpo, Milwaukee, and Cleveland State that were all within a game of winning the regular season. Valpo needs to do whatever they can to get out of the HL. If not I have a feeling that we'll eventually be brought down to the level of many of the other programs and be back to a normal mid-major. Hopefully we don't look back to this era in Valpo basketball and go 'What if?' although I have a terrible feeling that is the case.
Thanks again LeCrone, you took the Horizon League which was once a promising mid-major conference and have done nothing but run it into the ground.
Quote from: classof2014 on March 10, 2016, 08:33:32 AM
LeCrone is an absolute buffoon. He's an idiot plain and simple. He has completely ruined the integrity of the Horizon League. There was a time not too long ago the HL was damn close to being a top-10 conference. A lot of that had to do with Butler but there were other schools that were successful. Watching the game on Monday night I would cringe whenever they said the HL is as strong as ever. Are these guys idiots!?! You have perennial bottom feeders with RPIs well south of 250. NKU stinks, UIC stinks, YSU stinks, CSU stunk (this year). Every year the HL seems to have 3-4 teams that can barely muster 10 wins, including DII games. There is without a question Valpo deserves to be in the NCAA tournament, will they? No. LeCrone did nothing to help Valpo make it to the tournament. Instead Green Bay will get a 15 seed and will be one-and-done. It wasn't too long ago when the HL had 4 or 5 quality mid-major programs that would've been given something higher than a 15 seed. In 2010 there was Butler, Valpo, Milwaukee, and Cleveland State that were all within a game of winning the regular season. Valpo needs to do whatever they can to get out of the HL. If not I have a feeling that we'll eventually be brought down to the level of many of the other programs and be back to a normal mid-major. Hopefully we don't look back to this era in Valpo basketball and go 'What if?' although I have a terrible feeling that is the case.
Thanks again LeCrone, you took the Horizon League which was once a promising mid-major conference and have done nothing but run it into the ground.
But where do we go if we get out? Right now, there is no movement among mid-major conferences that would be advantageous to VU.
I am resigned to the fact that Valpo must do something, however, but we are restricted to INSIDE the HL to improve our, and other schools' position. Our University AD and President need to start putting great pressure on the Commissioner to perform and hold him to it through a coalition of like minded HL schools. WSU, right now seems like an allie for starters . In business, (and make no mistake, D-I BB is business) managers and execs are measured by performance. What are the commissioner's performance criteria? Who measures LeCrone's? The Presidents and ADs, right? He has been given a free pass much too long.
LeCrone commenting that it might be time to change the double round robin to protect some of the top teams RPIs is absurd. THEN WHY DID YOU ADD NKU THIS YEAR?? He knew they'd be an RPI killer in their first year. I thought the whole point of adding them was to create travel partners for a balanced schedule!
Also, no, Valpo isn't going independent. That's absurd.
And no, there's not going to be relegation between three leagues.
No, we're not going to the A10. We're probably not going to the MVC any time soon either - not until our facilities improve dramatically.
Finally, no, there's not going to be a magical mid major league spawn up overnight.
Part of the RPI problems of the Horizon stem from the transfers. CSU easily would have been s top 100 team had Forbes, Lewis and Grady not moved along o greener pastures. Seems to me that another one of their starters also left. YSU also had kids bolt. UIC had all-freshman Pat Birt leave for Tulsa, We lost Brandon a few years ago. I'm sure there are others.
One or two CSU situations and you have a significant change. Not sure there is an answer to kids wanting to improve their situation. People on this board have discussed the possibility of Alec and Keith (if eligible for an additional year) moving along for their final year. What will our RPI be next year if that happened?
It is the same for other mid-majors. Once you think you have corrected a problem another one pops up.
If we're going to try to help fix this conference then we need to do it right.
1. The Double Round Robin isn't what killed our RPI. Playing the unbalanced schedule still would have had us play 2 games vs UIC in order to preserve "Rivalry Games" with the travel partners. If we go to unbalance schedules and Detroit-Oakland and Milwaukee-Green Bay doesn't happen twice a season this league will lose a lot. Watch those games, they are important to the league and their fans. And they are great rivalries. I only hope that NKU-Wright St. and Valpo-UIC will eventually get to a level the Metro Series is.
2. The Double bye did actually hurt the league this year. Oakland shot way below their season and league average in their game vs. Wright St and it's not like they were playing a defensive juggernaut. Every team shot poorly in their first game at the Joe. Having a set up similar to the MVC where they have 8-9 and 7-10 games in the first round and then the second round is 1-8/9, 2-7/10, 3-6, and 4-5. Hell reseed the second, and third round if you want, so your top seeds are rewarded for advancing.
3. We need an OOC schedule reform. Let's set it up to where if you are returning over 60% of your minutes, you should be required to play at least 5 top 100 RPI teams from the previous season and if you are losing more than 70% of your minutes it should be recommended that you not play more than 3 top 150 RPI teams from the previous season. Let's set it up so we are challenging the league by getting some tough schedules. There's no reason Wright St. should have scheduled the way they did. Why would you schedule top 15 teams Kentucky and Xavier while the rest of your schedule is an average of 212 KenPom. And you went 4-5 while not playing a team in the top 150? Terrible.
Just looked at the 2017 NCAA tournament sites list... interesting
date host conference host school location
March 17, 19 Horizon IUPUI Indianapolis Bankers Life Fieldhouse
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2016, 08:09:29 AMWouldn't a 1 day break before the final be better for the finalists?
The break is for the women's quarterfinal games. The men play their four games one day, the women the next, then both sets of semis and finals are the same day.
Quote from: valpo84 on March 10, 2016, 08:02:44 AM
And how is a non-double round robin going to work? So we might get bottom feeders 2x still and then face top division maybe 1x in year 1 and then flipped in year 2. This isn't the B1G where you get good RPI teams in the bottom half? The other alternative is to add better teams, not the NKUs of the world (which was vociferously opposed). We would be better off as an Independent (aka the new Notre Dame).
We can debate the timing of the addition, but I don't think NKU was a terrible add. However, I do agree with you that if the HL is looking to drop the double round robin, the conference should seriously consider expanding, and look to 11 or 12 teams teams in the near forseeable future, with at least one "heavy hitter" if going beyond 11. Actually, 11 is probably the better number since you could still schedule an even number of conference games in a non-double round robin format with only one team addition and adding only one school (as opposed to two or three) might be easier to digest since we're talking about an all sports add. A packaged deal to get that "heavy hitter" might be required however. So the question is where are these addition(s) going to come from? From what conference? MVC, OVC, Colonial, Patriot, WAC, Summit? Where? Plus, I don't think the HL is entertaining expansion anytime soon, so the point is probably moot. But I do agree with you on that point.
Quote from: Kyle321n on March 10, 2016, 09:22:26 AM
If we're going to try to help fix this conference then we need to do it right.
1. The Double Round Robin isn't what killed our RPI. Playing the unbalanced schedule still would have had us play 2 games vs UIC in order to preserve "Rivalry Games" with the travel partners. If we go to unbalance schedules and Detroit-Oakland and Milwaukee-Green Bay doesn't happen twice a season this league will lose a lot. Watch those games, they are important to the league and their fans. And they are great rivalries. I only hope that NKU-Wright St. and Valpo-UIC will eventually get to a level the Metro Series is.
2. The Double bye did actually hurt the league this year. Oakland shot way below their season and league average in their game vs. Wright St and it's not like they were playing a defensive juggernaut. Every team shot poorly in their first game at the Joe. Having a set up similar to the MVC where they have 8-9 and 7-10 games in the first round and then the second round is 1-8/9, 2-7/10, 3-6, and 4-5. Hell reseed the second, and third round if you want, so your top seeds are rewarded for advancing.
3. We need an OOC schedule reform. Let's set it up to where if you are returning over 60% of your minutes, you should be required to play at least 5 top 100 RPI teams from the previous season and if you are losing more than 70% of your minutes it should be recommended that you not play more than 3 top 150 RPI teams from the previous season. Let's set it up so we are challenging the league by getting some tough schedules. There's no reason Wright St. should have scheduled the way they did. Why would you schedule top 15 teams Kentucky and Xavier while the rest of your schedule is an average of 212 KenPom. And you went 4-5 while not playing a team in the top 150? Terrible.
It's really impossible to enforce this, as it's really difficult for mid majors to schedule. I think the league could potentially cap the amount of buy-games for teams that finished, say, below 100 RPI the previous year. The league could compensate for this (what have we been doing with the Butler money again?).
Guarding against bad SOS might be difficult. You may end up with teams not being able to schedule any D1 home games (because that's all they can afford or find) and instead they'd settle for non d1 games. Plus some games are scheduled a year or two in advance. This certainly isn't the Horizon's problem the past few year - it's mainly been over-scheduling, not weak scheduling.
Quote from: talksalot on March 10, 2016, 09:22:37 AM
Just looked at the 2017 NCAA tournament sites list... interesting
date host conference host school location
March 17, 19 Horizon IUPUI Indianapolis Bankers Life Fieldhouse
In 2011 or 2012 when Indy hosted, there was both a Horizon and IUPUI logo on the court, if that's what you're getting at.
It's pretty hard for me to imagine a non-round robin working, for RPI protection. Who's going to agree to play in the B league?
One could imagine a results-based promotion/relegation system (within one league), but it seems highly unlikely.
Quote from: a3uge on March 10, 2016, 09:56:48 AMQuote from: talksalot on Today at 09:22:37 AMJust looked at the 2017 NCAA tournament sites list... interestingdate host conference host school locationMarch 17, 19 Horizon IUPUI Indianapolis Bankers Life FieldhouseIn 2011 or 2012 when Indy hosted, there was both a Horizon and IUPUI logo on the court, if that's what you're getting at.
My guess would be that when Indy and Bankers Life Fieldhouse put in the bid to host the first/second round that the Horizon League (and Butler at the time?) was the host conference, and now that Butler is out of the Horizon, the closest Division I school is IUPUI. Just a guess
Agree with everything said on LeCrony and HL. One thought though. I'm worried about our own house right now. Yes, men's basketball rules this league. As it should for monetary purposes.
But what's to prevent other HL schools, specifically GB, saying to us, "You're about to award a contract extension to a women's basketball coach who's 32-90 in four years. How does that help the conference? What did playing you twice do to our RPI and seeding?"
I realize this is a little bit apples and oranges, but still....
Ivy League just announced that next year, they will have a post-season tournament... with their top-4-teams... at the Palestra... 1 vs 4, 2 vs 3
http://ivyleague.com/information/general_releases/2015-16/releases/The_Ivy_League_Adds_Mens-Womens_Basketball_Tournaments_Beginning_in_2017 (http://ivyleague.com/information/general_releases/2015-16/releases/The_Ivy_League_Adds_Mens-Womens_Basketball_Tournaments_Beginning_in_2017)
Guess academics aren't so important in the Ivy League anymore.
The Ivy going to a 4 team tourney? That brings up an interesting point. Why do we have to have all teams participate? Why not just the top 8 or even the top 6 (like soccer)? Wouldn't that be an incentive to the weaker teams to upgrade so as not to be left out ( a form of relegation, no?) Right now the bottom feeders are not penalized, other than seeding, for poor in-season performance. This also guarantees that the participating RPIs are more top end.
Quote from: valpo84 on March 10, 2016, 10:33:41 AM
Guess academics aren't so important in the Ivy League anymore.
Their press release seems to spin it in-part based on academics, or they're at least trying to respect them. It comes with a one-game reduction in the regular season schedule. If it's a Saturday-Sunday tournament it would seem pretty respectful.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2016, 10:39:08 AM
The Ivy going to a 4 team tourney? That brings up an interesting point. Why do we have to have all teams participate? Why not just the top 8 or even the top 6 (like soccer)? Wouldn't that be an incentive to the weaker teams to upgrade so as not to be left out ( a form of relegation, no?) Right now the bottom feeders are not penalized, other than seeding, for poor in-season performance. This also guarantees that the participating RPIs are more top end.
$$$
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2016, 10:39:08 AM
The Ivy going to a 4 team tourney? That brings up an interesting point. Why do we have to have all teams participate? Why not just the top 8 or even the top 6 (like soccer)? Wouldn't that be an incentive to the weaker teams to upgrade so as not to be left out ( a form of relegation, no?) Right now the bottom feeders are not penalized, other than seeding, for poor in-season performance. This also guarantees that the participating RPIs are more top end.
Indeed, he Ivy makes it sound kind of appealing. Going to a regular season AQ is a big jump, but maybe the Ivy's middle position could be achievable.
Maybe take Donlon's two four-game tournaments, and just eliminate the first. Let the top four seeds slug it out. The 4 vs 5 tie-breakers become important, but maybe that's more palatable than the 2 vs 3 split.
Probably impossible under the Olympia contract, unless maybe you left the other six teams slog it out for a consolation prize.
I'm surprised nobody has ripped this comment yet:
"We wanted everyone to feel like a champion," LeCrone said. "That was really year one what we wanted to accomplish.
Quote from: agibson on March 10, 2016, 11:21:01 AM
Probably impossible under the Olympia contract, unless maybe you left the other six teams slog it out for a consolation prize.
What would be the point of the consolation prize? Congrats you stink so here's trophy showing that you are the best of the worst?
Is the 4 team or 6 team tournament idea a good one? Yes. Makes sense. Will it happen? No.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2016, 10:39:08 AM
The Ivy going to a 4 team tourney? That brings up an interesting point. Why do we have to have all teams participate? Why not just the top 8 or even the top 6 (like soccer)? Wouldn't that be an incentive to the weaker teams to upgrade so as not to be left out ( a form of relegation, no?) Right now the bottom feeders are not penalized, other than seeding, for poor in-season performance. This also guarantees that the participating RPIs are more top end.
I believe that there are conferences that have played with this in the past. Since we are on the hook for four days in Detroit, I'm guessing that one option would be for the bottom four teams to play Saturday, all remaining teams play Sunday, two games Monday and the final on Tuesday.
The HL needs to take a long look at what makes a team top 100 - facilities, $$ for recruiting trips, $$ for Coaching Staff, AD staff alignment, etc. Then the HL needs to assess all teams for potential improvements that would help improve each team, and thusly, the HL.
Quote from: classof2014 on March 10, 2016, 11:28:28 AM
Quote from: agibson on March 10, 2016, 11:21:01 AM
Probably impossible under the Olympia contract, unless maybe you left the other six teams slog it out for a consolation prize.
What would be the point of the consolation prize? Congrats you stink so here's trophy showing that you are the best of the worst?
It'd clearly be a bobby prize. But, it seems like they should play for _something_ if they're coming to Detroit to play in a tournament setting, "feel like champions", etc.
Quote from: agibson on March 10, 2016, 12:10:19 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on March 10, 2016, 11:28:28 AM
Quote from: agibson on March 10, 2016, 11:21:01 AM
Probably impossible under the Olympia contract, unless maybe you left the other six teams slog it out for a consolation prize.
What would be the point of the consolation prize? Congrats you stink so here's trophy showing that you are the best of the worst?
It'd clearly be a bobby prize. But, it seems like they should play for _something_ if they're coming to Detroit to play in a tournament setting, "feel like champions", etc.
Nah, why make the losers feel like champions in any way?
Get the tournament done in 3 days (¼ finals, semis and final)
and get the heck out of there. Olympia should jump at not having the fourth day of overhead costs associated with lousy attendance.
plastic participation trophies for everyone including the restroom attendants!
.... and bigger than the winner's trophies to help heal the deep wounds associated being offended by losing.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2016, 12:39:46 PM
.... and bigger than the winner's trophies to help heal the deep wounds associated being offended by losing.
LOL! ;D
You guys should be careful of what you wish for. Valpo has already been a part of a conference that didn't send every team to the post season conference tourney--the old Mid-Con. Someone tell me, how did that work out for us? I'll wait...
Quote from: ValpoHoops on March 10, 2016, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2016, 08:09:29 AMWouldn't a 1 day break before the final be better for the finalists?
The break is for the women's quarterfinal games. The men play their four games one day, the women the next, then both sets of semis and finals are the same day.
I think the WCC break on Sunday (which was for both men and women) was because of BYU not playing on Sundays.
It would make sense to have 7-10 and 8-9 play a few days before getting to Detroit and then slotting those winners in against 1 and 2 and go to the Summit format (the MAAC does it too), where No. 1 and No. 2 play on the first day (men and women), then No. 3 and No. 4 play the next day with all four semis and the two finals in the two days following.
Quote from: mgovalpo on March 10, 2016, 02:00:00 PMI think the WCC break on Sunday (which was for both men and women) was because of BYU not playing on Sundays.
I do believe you are correct. I can't read a bracket. I swear I saw that right this morning ???
Should have kept everything the exact same. byes and location the same. Worked fine.
Kampe and Bryce compared their stats Monday and both shot 38% from the field and 30% from behind the arc (so Kampe said). Uncanny. They're both thinking -- of course -- we should get rid of the double bye.
I still feel like we really don't know what to expect for the double-bye in this new format (assuming it remains). We have 1 data point. Kinda hard to extrapolate accurately from that. We have 10 or so data points the previous format, and Jimmy Lemke did a what-if analysis that suggested that Butler doesn't even make the tourney in 2011 without the double-bye (I guess, they had 0 home tourney games that year). I'm still not sure that's enough, but it is more data.
If they are going to have both tournaments next year over the same weekend so I get 18 games instead of 9, I love that idea.
Quote from: StlVUFan on March 10, 2016, 06:14:12 PMKampe and Bryce compared their stats Monday and both shot 38% from the field and 30% from behind the arc (so Kampe said). Uncanny. They're both thinking -- of course -- we should get rid of the double bye.
I still feel like we really don't know what to expect for the double-bye in this new format (assuming it remains). We have 1 data point. Kinda hard to extrapolate accurately from that.
Keep in mind that I have never liked the double-bye concept or trusted in its abilities to help select the best team for that moment in time. With that in mind lets focus on the tradeoff between the 1 and 2 seeds and the 3, 4 and lower teams. If the 3 and 4 are late season developing teams who suffer no additional injuries in their first 2 games (a very big if) then there is little question they would enjoy a first half rust free, adrenalin driven advantage. That was the case this year in both games and that was enough.
I think most of you will agree that Wright State and Green Bay were 2 of our biggest disappointments for non conference performance but this year the double bye was exactly what they needed.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2016, 08:09:29 AMI notice by its absence in the commissioner's comments the need to develop and enforce OCSOS scheduling guidelines. The league could be proactive in this by working as hard as possible to initiate an early season "Challenge" series with a similar Mid-major conference.
As far as I know the Horizon League is working on this and has been working on this. LeCrone did in fact talk about it, it just didn't make the story. I'd have to dig up my notes which are among the many boxes in my house as I've just moved.
Thanks, Paul. Well, at least that's a step in the right direction. Something like a 4 game series for all HL clubs with, like, the MVC or OVC or the Summit (?) would bolster both conferences' SOS a bit if done right and do the one thing that mid majors have the hardest time doing -- finding qualified opponents to schedule. And if that is coupled with stronger OOC scheduling requirements as a part of league membership, it would be a positive.
Maybe we can get some major sports network to sanction a weekend of games for the top 32 Mid-Majors to be seeded and play each other; with the promise for a return game the following season.... gee... that might bust some brackets....
Yeah.... they could hold it at the Joe Louis Arena! :-X
Quote from: StlVUFan on March 10, 2016, 06:14:12 PM
Kampe and Bryce compared their stats Monday and both shot 38% from the field and 30% from behind the arc (so Kampe said). Uncanny. They're both thinking -- of course -- we should get rid of the double bye.
I still feel like we really don't know what to expect for the double-bye in this new format (assuming it remains). We have 1 data point. Kinda hard to extrapolate accurately from that.
2 or 3 games from one year, and a lot of folk wisdom, common sense, and aphorisms.
What ever happened to "tired legs"? That's the story Donlon was still telling in his famous presser. And that everyone told in past campus-sites tournaments. It seemed plausible enough then.
Oh yeah, all of these are plausible. That's what makes them such compelling conclusions to jump to
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 10, 2016, 10:18:38 AM"You're about to award a contract extension to a women's basketball coach who's 32-90 in four years. How does that help the conference? What did playing you twice do to our RPI and seeding?"
That extension of Dorow's contract is in no way guaranteed. It will be a tough decision for our AD but I think he will need to be consistent. If Freeman was fired for his record why would you not replace Dorow for a similar record. It is a very tough decision and one that I'm sure no AD likes to make when people's careers are on the line.
Quote from: bbtds on March 12, 2016, 11:39:41 AM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 10, 2016, 10:18:38 AM"You're about to award a contract extension to a women's basketball coach who's 32-90 in four years. How does that help the conference? What did playing you twice do to our RPI and seeding?"
That extension of Dorow's contract is in no way guaranteed. It will be a tough decision for our AD but I think he will need to be consistent. If Freeman was fired for his record why would you not replace Dorow for a similar record. It is a very tough decision and one that I'm sure no AD likes to make when people's careers are on the line.
Freeman had some good teams, right? Mostly in the Mid-Con I think. His record over the final few years of his contract spiraled downward for some reason (I wasn't that familiar with the WBB program at the time), those last 5 were as a new-comer in the HL. Dorrow's record started poorly, recruiting of D-I talent from the outset was an issue, tactically and fundamentally she and her staff appeared to be over their heads and were learning D-I on the job. While there has been a little improvement, WBB still haven't turned the performance corner where we are at least in the middle of the pack after 4 seasons. Comments like "We're
starting to put the building blocks in place" (after 4 seasons) makes me wonder if we are really headed in the right direction and if we are actually becoming at all consistently competitive.
In Horizon competition seasons:
Freeman5 seasons
All games (152) 56-96 36%
HL games (91) 34-57 37%
Dorrow4 seasons
All games (123) 33-90 26%
HL games (66) 15-51 25%
In their 5th season WBB would need to go 23-8 to get the overall 5 year record to just 36.3% and 16-2 in the HL to reach 35.7% (or what got Freeman fired).
I think ML is doing the right thing in giving her the 5th year, but I think it's a futile effort in the long run.
Quote from: bbtds on March 12, 2016, 11:39:41 AM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 10, 2016, 10:18:38 AM"You're about to award a contract extension to a women's basketball coach who's 32-90 in four years. How does that help the conference? What did playing you twice do to our RPI and seeding?"
That extension of Dorow's contract is in no way guaranteed. It will be a tough decision for our AD but I think he will need to be consistent. If Freeman was fired for his record why would you not replace Dorow for a similar record. It is a very tough decision and one that I'm sure no AD likes to make when people's careers are on the line.
I think she deserves another year or two. We only lose two people from the rotation and are adding some very nice size coming in. When you look at our regular rotation this year, of the top five scorers, two were freshman, two were sophomores and one was a senior. On rebounding, our top five included two freshman, two sophomores and a junior. That should bode well for next year. If it doesn't turnaround then decisions need to be made.
Stony Brook (Long Island, NY), a predicted 12 seed, takes the America East. So what, you say. Check out the USAToday article below and just look at the the second photo of a jammed SBSU arena for the final and compare it to the almost empty JLA cavern when GB won.
Although I step aside in deference to the BB expertise that is resident on this board, I do have an emotional hook into college basketball ( as well as college FB ;) ). The spectacle that is college basketball, with the emotion and the spirit, makes it a unique phenom. We captured that at the ARC last year and I would suggest that it would be damn close this year even with a GB-WSU final ( but we all know that wouldn't be the case ;) ). Contrast that to the JLA and compare that to the picture at the Stony Brook arena. What a bummer. LeCrone and his LeCronies have sucked the emotion out of the HL tournament. Major step backward.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/ameast/2016/03/12/stony-brook-jameel-warney-march-madness-cinderella/81690044/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/ameast/2016/03/12/stony-brook-jameel-warney-march-madness-cinderella/81690044/)
Is it true that LeCrone holds an honorary degree from Trump University?
Check this out. ... look who is missing. (Good for the league... BS - some of the statements are asinine)
https://vimeo.com/151941372
Go Valpo!
The 'real champion???' Are you f****** kidding me? Someone that gets hot over 4 games in a neutral setting is the 'real champion?' Obviously, we aren't shown, as Butler and Valpo have owned this league over the last 10+ years, so these other schools rarely got to host.
The NKU coach sure did look sincere with what he was saying. Also...maybe it's just me but several coaches (Slocum for sure) kept looking off to the side...were they reading something or was someone over there holding their family hostage making sure they said the right thing??
I'm guessing Bryce's take was edited out after he said what just about everyone else thinks.
Was Jeter missing? The UIC guy?
Another post-tournament article written March 14th saying how great LeCrone thought the tournament went. This one has some quotes from Kampe. Horizon League basketball commissioner pleased with results of 'Motor City Madness' (http://www.candgnews.com/sports/horizon-league-basketball-commissioner-pleased-results-%E2%80%98motor-city-madness%E2%80%99-91128)
Quote
"In fact, before we even got to Detroit we decided that we wanted to take a look at the format for next year," LeCrone said. "We'll develop some other models for coaches and our ADs to take a look at."
LeCrone added that there will also be input from the Horizon League's partners at Olympia and ESPN.
Nothing says a well run organization like having to ask people who pay you what you should do with the product they pay you for...
HL: "Hey guys, we kind of screwed up this year, how bout we let you guys pick how you want the tournament run next year?"
ESPN: "Well Detroit and Chicago are your major TV markets, how about we have UIC vs Detroit and market it as the Big City Bowl?"
Olympia: "That sounds good if we have Detroit in the finals, but let's make sure Oakland is in the semifinal."
HL: "Deal! Anything else you want?"
Both: "Nah... we fvcked with your competitive balance enough here, we'll just let the #1 seed be the 4th semifinalist"
From the article:
"I thought it was a huge win for our league — off to such a good start," said LeCrone, who said over 20,000 people attended the tournament.
"Huge amount of the credit has to go to the folks at Olympia Entertainment. They were spectacular in every sense. They also should be given credit for helping us with our relationship with the Detroit Sports Commission. We wanted everyone to feel like a champion. That was kind of the theme. We started with the students. We wanted our coaches to feel special. We wanted the fans to feel special, and really important to us, we wanted the city of Detroit to feel special. I think we accomplished all those things."
With the first year of the agreement having been to his liking, LeCrone expressed optimism that the event can continue to grow into something special.
"We're already so excited about building on the momentum that we think we have been able to create," he said. "I think the future of this event can be just spectacular.""
Damn, he must have paid $35,000 and went to Trump University's School of Hyperbole. Hope the league did not pay for the tuition.
Glaringly omitted -- the players who earned the right to play for a championship on their home court!
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 15, 2016, 09:24:25 AM
From the article:
"I thought it was a huge win for our league — off to such a good start," said LeCrone, who said over 20,000 people attended the tournament.
"Huge amount of the credit has to go to the folks at Olympia Entertainment. They were spectacular in every sense. They also should be given credit for helping us with our relationship with the Detroit Sports Commission. We wanted everyone to feel like a champion. That was kind of the theme. We started with the students. We wanted our coaches to feel special. We wanted the fans to feel special, and really important to us, we wanted the city of Detroit to feel special. I think we accomplished all those things."
With the first year of the agreement having been to his liking, LeCrone expressed optimism that the event can continue to grow into something special.
"We're already so excited about building on the momentum that we think we have been able to create," he said. "I think the future of this event can be just spectacular.""
Damn, he must have paid $35,000 and went to Trump University's School of Hyperbole. Hope the league did not pay for the tuition.
This just reeks of positive spin control. Not one ounce of constructive criticism?? Everything was perfect?? I know LeCrone wants to be positive, but at least be honest about areas of improvement. 20,000 people over 4 days and 9 games in an arena that in a basketball configuration that would have easily held 10,000 is really an issue. He should have at least acknowledged that fact.
I know this is an old article, but was wondering if this had ever been posted. Horizon League tourney to Detroit is all about branding (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/07/jla-to-host-horizon-league-basketball-tournament/70957924/)
Found this statement really interesting.
QuoteThe Detroit plan puts the whole tournament, including opening-round games, in the city, a single site, regardless if Oakland or Detroit happen to be eliminated before the championship game.
Therefore, this could give the tournament a bigger spotlight, in a bigger media market than, say, Valparaiso. That's welcomed news for ESPN, which retains the rights to broadcast the championship game — and figures to be much more likely to put the final on ESPN rather than ESPN2 if there's not a bunch of empty seats, like there often is when the game is held at a campus site.
This really hit home with me. I was not a HL conspiracy guy until I saw this. These are all veiled (and not so veiled) references aimed at VU hosting the tourney in the recent past. Singling out VU as the "small" media market is ridiculous.
Take a look at a map idiot. Yeah, that area inside the red boundry, that is the Chicago MSA, of which Valparaiso is a part. Thinking that there would be fewer empty seats in cavernous Joe Louis Arena than on a campus site is also asinine.
(http://proximityone.com/metros/cbsa16980_tracts.jpg)
Just wanted to underscore the red text. Valpo finals in the ARC are usually packed sell-outs that rival any venue in the country when seen through the TV camera lens. Maybe they were postulating what a final might look like if it were at UDM. Panther arena or the Resch would be close to packed. The Nutter would have most lower seats taken. NKU would sell out. UIC would sell out. That comment was totally baseless and speculative. And wrong.
Quote from: FWalum on March 15, 2016, 10:11:15 AM
I know this is an old article, but was wondering if this had ever been posted. Horizon League tourney to Detroit is all about branding (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/07/jla-to-host-horizon-league-basketball-tournament/70957924/)
Found this statement really interesting.
QuoteThe Detroit plan puts the whole tournament, including opening-round games, in the city, a single site, regardless if Oakland or Detroit happen to be eliminated before the championship game.
Therefore, this could give the tournament a bigger spotlight, in a bigger media market than, say, Valparaiso. That's welcomed news for ESPN, which retains the rights to broadcast the championship game — and figures to be much more likely to put the final on ESPN rather than ESPN2 if there's not a bunch of empty seats, like there often is when the game is held at a campus site.
This really hit home with me. I was not a HL conspiracy guy until I saw this. These are all veiled (and not so veiled) references aimed at VU hosting the tourney in the recent past. Singling out VU as the "small" media market is ridiculous. Take a look at a map idiot. Yeah, that area inside the red boundry, that is the Chicago MSA, of which Valparaiso is a part. Thinking that there would be fewer empty seats in cavernous Joe Louis Arena than on a campus site is also asinine.
(http://proximityone.com/metros/cbsa16980_tracts.jpg)
Yeah that was a pretty stupid comment. Tony Paul, the writer, gets slammed for it in the comments section too. Thought about writing an email but the article is almost a year old and would probably get a shrug in response if any at all.
As predicted, the double bye has been eliminated.
The 4v5 teams and 3v6 teams play Sunday, while the 1v8-9 and 2v7-10 teams play Saturday. Semifinals on Monday, finals still on Tuesday.
Change Change Change. Everyone understands change is inevitable. But all the changes within the HL and the HL basketball tournament have been for the worse!
LeCrone belongs in the Summit at best. The HL will not move ahead with him at the helm. Butler basically ran the HL until they left and then LeCrone was fully in charge. Look what has happened since. I'm still trying to understand paying the Detroit high school band to "help out" the Tourney. Now with adding another set of games there will be even more expense. Boy, this move to Detroit was really a good one!! NOT!
I see the "spin" continues as the Horizon League official statement includes a quote that they are looking "to build on the success we witnessed in our first season hosting 'Motor City Madness,'" said Tom Wilson, President & CEO of Olympia Entertainment. I guess "success" is defined by the top seeds eliminated and lower seeds playing for the championship on national television in front of empty stands.
Quote from: valpopal on July 06, 2016, 04:10:04 PM
I see the "spin" continues as the Horizon League official statement includes a quote that they are looking "to build on the success we witnessed in our first season hosting 'Motor City Madness,'" said Tom Wilson, President & CEO of Olympia Entertainment. I guess "success" is defined by the top seeds eliminated and lower seeds playing for the championship on national television in front of empty stands.
If in fact there really were 20,900 fans at the tournament, my guess is that the total attendance at the campus site tournaments were just as good. 20,900 divided by 9 games gives you 2,322 per game in a 20,066 seat arena.
Valpo drew 13,347 in three home NIT games and 8,342 for two games played at the ARC for the 2014-2015 Horizon League Tournament. I tried to find all the box scores from the tourney in 2014-2015 at Valpo. I'm missing a game and still came up with 23,939 at campus sites.
Have attendance figures and other financial info ever been released regarding the initial Detroit fiasco?
Quote from: valpo64 on July 06, 2016, 05:47:32 PM
Have attendance figures and other financial info ever been released regarding the initial Detroit fiasco?
The 20,900 number is from the press release on the new format. I doubt financial info will ever be released.
Quote from: vu72 on July 06, 2016, 07:11:04 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on July 06, 2016, 05:47:32 PM
Have attendance figures and other financial info ever been released regarding the initial Detroit fiasco?
The 20,900 number is from the press release on the new format. I doubt financial info will ever be released.
I believe the 20,900 number is deceptive and misleading, because the tournament package deals count as tickets for every game. There may have been 20,900 tickets sold when you consider how many bought the tournament package, especially those fans from Valpo and Oakland who expected their team to be in the final game. However, many of those who bought tickets did not attend all the games. How many Valpo and Oakland fans stuck around for the championship game between Green Bay and Wright State? Not many, thus the numerous images of empty seats on ESPN.
I would be interesting to hear M LB's "report" of this year's Tourney...how we came out on the deal, etc. And now with the "added" games how that would affect Valpo's bottom line.
Quote from: valpo64 on July 06, 2016, 09:23:38 PM
I would be interesting to hear M LB's "report" of this year's Tourney...how we came out on the deal, etc. And now with the "added" games how that would affect Valpo's bottom line.
"Added games"? I count nine games, just like last year.
If anything, I would expect the attendance might increase since your best teams join the tourney in round 2, instead of round 3. Just a thought.
Quote from: zvillehaze on July 07, 2016, 01:37:28 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on July 06, 2016, 09:23:38 PM
I would be interesting to hear M LB's "report" of this year's Tourney...how we came out on the deal, etc. And now with the "added" games how that would affect Valpo's bottom line.
"Added games"? I count nine games, just like last year.
If anything, I would expect the attendance might increase since your best teams join the tourney in round 2, instead of round 3. Just a thought.
The women's tournament will be added and played over the same period in Detroit.
Quote from: Pgmado on March 11, 2016, 01:37:37 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 10, 2016, 08:09:29 AMI notice by its absence in the commissioner's comments the need to develop and enforce OCSOS scheduling guidelines. The league could be proactive in this by working as hard as possible to initiate an early season "Challenge" series with a similar Mid-major conference.
As far as I know the Horizon League is working on this and has been working on this. LeCrone did in fact talk about it, it just didn't make the story. I'd have to dig up my notes which are among the many boxes in my house as I've just moved.
Nothing new on this conference vs conference series of games? I assume it is now a no go. Good for LeCrone. I remember when we joined the Horizon I had a lot of hope in JLC. No more.
Ryan's winning shot video with Todd's call in the Broekoff thread is another stark reminder of the amazing tournament atmosphere that LeCrone tossed out like garbage to chase a "high major credibility" pipe dream that IMO will never happen. (Not a new revelation by any stretch - just a "venting" moment.) ;)
wh, I can't agree with you more. Speaking from a guy who was there (I utilized a business trip to ensure it coupled with a great boss), I saw firsthand how bad it was organized. I bought a seat in the balcony and was immediately given a seat in the lower level because no one was there. BY the time the Valpo/UWGB game was in the second half you can see the element that was brought in from free tickets. Basically anyone from the streets was allowed in.
WHEN I have a ticket that says my row and my seat number on it and 8 guys come up to me and tell me that I am in their seat, I am street savvy enough to know to get the helluva outta there. For me it worked out great as I went across the court, saw the cheerleaders and dancers, whom my daughter was a part of closer. Plus I got to see Alec's amazing shot up close and personal. Too bad it didn't lead to victory but at least i got a few words with my kid. I was not impressed and Joe Louis has seen better days.