Thought I'd set up the thread ;D
And here I thought this was setting up the thread...........
(http://techchai.com/rc/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/threading_a_needle.jpg)
BSU this year:
Lost at Bradley (1-4) 54-53
Beat Eastern Illinois (0-3) at home 75-56
Lost at Eastern Kentucky (4-1) 89-81
Beat Longwood (0-3) Neutral Court at EKY Tournament 78-67
Beat South Carolina State (1-3) Neutral Court at EKY Tournament 72-60
and they get to play IU Kokomo Tomorrow night.
Here's a link to their Season Stat sheet...
http://www.ballstatesports.com/fls/14200/Stats/mbasketball/2015-16/2015-16-Stats.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=14200 (http://www.ballstatesports.com/fls/14200/Stats/mbasketball/2015-16/2015-16-Stats.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=14200)
and here are their game notes for their "game" with IUK
http://www.ballstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=62158&SPID=6786&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210528849&DB_OEM_ID=14200 (http://www.ballstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=62158&SPID=6786&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210528849&DB_OEM_ID=14200)
Looks like they can go 8-9 deep... and they have some height.
I really was thinking about dragging the (extended?) family down to his one. But, I'm afraid the convenience of ESPN3 will win out over the pleasures of Muncie.
Valpo 75
Ball State 61
VU 81 BSU 68 Must game to get up for, it sets the tone for the rest of the OOC season. 25% of the season will be done with this game.
Happy Thanksgiving!!
The spread: Valpo -9.5
Quote from: agibson on November 24, 2015, 10:41:59 PM
I really was thinking about dragging the (extended?) family down to his one. But, I'm afraid the convenience of ESPN3 will win out over the pleasures of Muncie.
The performance at OSU is dragging me to Muncie tomorrow. Looks like I'll have to fight the rain all the way there and hope there's no flooding getting in my way.
Nice to find a game day story that you don't have to pay to read:
BALL STATE
Ball State set for tough Valparaiso game
Dakota Crawford, dmcrawford@muncie.gannett.com
7 hours ago
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Jordan Kartholl/The Star Press
Ball State defeated IU Kokomo at Worthen Arena Wednesday, Nov. 25, 2015.
MUNCIE — With as much momentum as it could hope for, Ball State will host its toughest opponent of the year.
Coming off a 90-54 win over IU Kokomo, Ball State (4-2) hosts Valparaiso (6-1) at 2 p.m. Saturday. The Cardinals are riding a three-game winning streak — the longest since a four-game win streak last season, which was followed by an 18-game losing streak.
But things are different this year. The Cardinals have more depth, more scorers and an upgraded frontcourt. They have more confidence.
"Confidence plays a big part in it," sophomore guard Francis Kiapway said. "Guys are more serious about winning. Guys want to win more. The whole culture changed and shifted."
The Crusaders will test that confidence like it hasn't been, and probably won't be again, all season. Head coach James Whitford has seen a little extra film on Valparaiso because they played IU Kokomo and of course, he's had Saturday's game to prepare for.
While he's hesitant to call this a "measuring stick" game, he does see it as a big opportunity for players.
"For us to have a team of this caliber play at home in front of our home fans," Whitford said, "I think it's something our guys will be really excited about."
They are. Kiapway said before the IU Kokomo game that he'd already been thinking about Valparaiso for days. The Crusaders edged the Cardinals by three points last season, so Kiapway is excited for this second game.
Valparaiso is beating its opponents by 18.1 points per game, and is a legit NCAA Tournament team. The Crusaders hold a plus-eight rebounding advantage — an area of concern for Ball State after it struggled to outrebound a much smaller IU Kokomo team.
Of course, players had their way on offense and completely controlled the tempo. So it wasn't a huge concern, but that will change against Valparaiso.
"Based on (the IU Kokomo) game, the one thing we need to get better at is defensive rebounding," Whitford said. "Valparaiso has great size."
The Crusaders are shooting just 30 percent from deep, compared to Ball State's 36 percent. Ball State also holds a 92-89 advantage in team assists.
Valparaiso (6-1) at Ball State (4-2)
When: 2 p.m. Saturday
Where: Worthen Arena
TV: ESPN3
Radio: WLBC
Any status on Skara?
Saw a pic of he team warming up looked like Tevonn is sitting this one out?
Yep, confirmed via a team tweet that Tevonn is out due to an injury...
Todd saying that Tevonn is out with the knee injury that he has been playing through and is choosing to rest him today. Also he is hoping to see Skara today.
Quote from: govalpogo on November 28, 2015, 12:51:50 PMTodd saying that Tevonn is out with the knee injury that he has been playing through and is choosing to rest him today. Also he is hoping to see Skara today.
Let's hope it's nothing more than that. Injuries are driving me bonkers.
Do production teams just go to behind the basket cameras to justify having a second cameraman?
Drew better light a fire under these guys. Valpo playing very lazy basketball while BSU wants to beat a "top 25" team.
Yes he better. This game has been bothering me for several days.
Franco House? Trap game.
Go after 'em man to man and full court. We are thinking too much and without Tevonn the tempo is screwed up.
One of the most infuriating games I've ever watched with the poor play and horrendous camera work.
Down 6 at the half after playing like that? I will take it...
just to give you some insight on Ball State from someone who follows the MAC closely...they were picked dead last in the conference this year. They lost to Bradley who is one of the worst teams in the nation. There are many high school teams that could beat Ball State..badly.
This would be the worst loss in many years, shocking to get pushed around like this.
valpo04 edit: Inappropriate comment removed.
I haven't had to yell at my computer like this all year. Will take being down only 6 after this 1st half performance. BSU is starting to average out...they were hitting a lot of pretty looking jumpers early. Let's get the W.
I'll take being down 6 at half after being down 12 with 4:50 to go. The rest of the team needs to show up besides Alec. Missing the front end of all 3 one and ones is unacceptable.
Not enjoying the announcers, but I had to unmute to avoid missing something when the game goes into super-zoom mode. Wow, awful.
Holy freethrowfest
EVERYTHING IS A FOUL!
valpo04 edit: Inappropriate post.
This is the worst.
We lost :censored: it.
Not even close to the "Number 1 Mid-Major." Even if we win, this game is a disaster. So many bailout fouls. Our margin for error is razor thin if we want an at-large bid. No excuse for this.
SO MANY FOULS
Should have gotten Alec open for the three.
Keith carter lost this game for us
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
We suck what a joke
And cagebanks is banned in 3...2....1.....
Got to hand it to the Cardinals. They made the shots and FT and made the defensive plays to win this game.
Quote from: ARCInsider on November 28, 2015, 03:00:58 PM
And cagebanks is banned in 3...2....1.....
Ever heard of sarcasm?
I wasn't really nervous until maybe five minutes left. More likely two minutes left.
Alas.
Need a better play at the buzzer to get Alec a shot.
Alec and E Vic with huge games, stepping in with Tevonn down.
Maybe we couldn't afford to rest Tevonn here...
I certainly begin to appreciate why big teams don't like to play on the road.
The crusaders looked terrible today. Embarrassing really
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Quote from: truth219 on November 28, 2015, 03:00:06 PM
Keith carter lost this game for us
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
What about the total lack of effort by Hammink?
Forget an at-large. Forget a single-digit seed in March. Tevonn had better have really been hurt if we didn't suit him up on the road against a team that always plays us tough. No Skara either. Is Lexus really that far off his game that he didn't see any playing time short handed as we were?
Too many missed layups, FTs.
I haven't been this mad after a game in years.
It's going to be tough to convince me that Joseph is a better option then Lexus.
He looked awful as well...Nobody looked like they gave a f@#@
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It was probably already true. But, Valpo's going to need some help to have any place in at-large discussions.
One or zero losses in the HL? I'm not going to so say "never" to an at-large.
With Valpo down 10 in the first half, Tevonn out, I thought it was a good chance for a learning experience. Hopefully it still is.
Need to find a way to overcome adversity. Need to find a way to get Alec a decent shot, or something easy (and not a deep three from Keith) at the buzzer.
Goodbye at-large bid. Hello typical Valpo low seed (if we win the tourney).
We cannot afford to be schooled (and that is exactly what happened) by teams like Ball State. Congrats to the Cardinals, clearly a much better team today.
Three minutes from David Skara. I didn't even see him.
Obviously Hammink far from his peak form.
Darien Walker is so bad this year. What did he do in the offseason to produce what he has done the first 8 games?? Keith Carter forced around 3 drives into 3 defenders, and tried to put up a shot that was subsequently blocked. This isn't the end of the world, but all at-large talk can definitely die now. Quit with the #1 mid-major talk, as I never bought into it anyways. We are still a good mid-major team, but we have some guys on the team that lack basketball IQ at times. I am very disappointed in Keith after this game, as he made a lot of dumb decisions. We were down by 2 with 3 minutes left, and he decides to take on 3 guys in the middle of the lane? Wow. We had many drives to the hoop that were very out of control and just trying to get a foul or put up a prayer. Disappointing game overall, outside of Peters and E Vic.
I am sure that everyone got tired of hearing the announcers call us #22 over and over, as Ken Pomeroy is not an official ranking that is used other than for RPI-like purposes. Time to rebound and win the rest of our OOC games. If we win at Indiana State and Missouri State, I will feel better about our OOC record. I am sure that a lot of people picked 6-2 for November, but who guessed that we would lose to lowly Ball State?
Also, the guy talking about Bryce boozing it up is an absolute moron...
Luke Gore, "Defensively I thought it was one of the worst games we've played in a couple of years."
Blames Valpo defense, not home cooking from the refs, for the Ball State free throws.
(I think he's being a little modest there... Valpo surely earned a few more trips to the line.)
Luke thinks Tevonn will be back Thursday, but not sure. But, says the team has/had plenty of depth. Needed to step in and play, didn't do that.
Quote from: valpotx on November 28, 2015, 03:09:42 PMI am sure that everyone got tired of hearing the announcers call us #22 over and over, as Ken Pomeroy is not an official ranking that is used other than for RPI-like purposes.
They were pretty clear that it was Pomeroy. But, yeah, over and over again.
Surprised they didn't play up "receiving votes" more - only saw it in a graphic at the end.
But, clearly a highlight of the season for Ball State. Announcers saying best win in a decade, etc.
This wasn't on the refs. They called it even for both teams. I think that we got bailed out just as much as they did. This came down to not rotating quickly enough on defense, and too many bad drives/finishes at the basket.
Valpo outrebounded by 5. Insane.
This game had nothing to do with the refs. It had everything to do with lackadaisical play, lethargic defense and ball movement, and poor decision-making. Not impressed by the similarly lethargic coaching, Luke.
Quote from: a3uge on November 28, 2015, 01:12:35 PM
Do production teams just go to behind the basket cameras to justify having a second cameraman?
And what's this with not showing you whether or not the free throw is made?!
I appreciate having multiple cameras, but the producer sure needs judgment...
Quote from: cagebanks on November 28, 2015, 01:59:32 PM
Coach needs to quit boozing and start coaching. people have seen him in bars all over town
That's his _dad_ that's been hanging out at the bar. To watch his son coach.
Hello Fellow 'Saders
Recent grad here and my first post! Sucks it had to be after this game
Couple of thoughts:
-There really is no overstating how bad of a loss this is. We can point to one or two players or issues but that really doesn't excuse anything. The chance of an at large bid now is not slim, but completely none.
-We as a program are not ready to make the next step. Go back and look at the mid majors who have evolved. There are two big steps. The misconception is that having big wins against power five schools is the first. The first is not losing games you shouldn't. Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc, were doing that for years prior to their arrival at the so called "Next Level". Bad teams will be up for you night after night and you have to bring the intensity to the floor each and every game.
-Your season now comes down to two days in March. The need to at least be in the convo for at large berth is due to the high probability of playing a "neutral" court game against an Oakland team that can shoot very well. And even with an auto berth a seed higher than 12 will be near impossible.
I try to not be too doomy after losses, but this one will haunt this team all year.
such a joke...ball st will finish middle of the mac at best...good bye 8,9, or 10 seed...maybe an 11 if we win out...12, 13 or 14 if not...tevonn didn't need to be rested unless he tweaked it in practice..that comes down on rod moore who hmmmmmmmm...darien needs to sit bench(although he did play decent d) ...lexus needs to play...hopefully skara will get back to early season form...you just cannot have a loss like this...so incredibly lazy...
There are going to be 3-4 other games like this that we lose, as we aren't a team that is going to win 30 games when playing in the HL. I would take a 26-28 win season, but that is hard to do when everyone is going to be trying to upset you, with how much they have to hear about how Valpo is going to own the HL this season.
I honestly never bought the hype of being an at-large. After the Oregons there were no more chances to prove we deserve one. So seeding above #12 was also unlikely.
But this game sucks especially because we are so experienced and deep. How do you blow so many first free throws and play such lax defense? I had considered driving to Terre Haute, but I'm not risking money on seeing this type of performance.
This game really shows that we are capable of choking or playing carelessly against Horizon teams and racking up 4 or more losses. Forget the seed #. This game shows we could lose in any of the 3 Horizon rounds. We have to be perfect for all 3 Tourney games or it's all for nothing anyway.
This is the life of a mid major. It's easy to lose on the road and we clearly got caught.
It's always been likelier that Valpo wins conference before having the resume for an at large, so I guess it's good that conversation can be put to rest. We're still a great team, but had a bad game shooting, and Ball State hit their shots.
Well our first Bad Loss the BB powers will not forget it all season. We will spend the rest of the season paying for it. Mid Majors get no forgiveness!!!. :o
Who decided to give Jubril and Shane the day off or did Ball St just make them look like they were not there?
My question will be answered in future games: is this a wake up call or is this the way these guys are content playing?
This is close to the worst team performance since the 2011 Iona game! Wait! Did the entire team except Alec have dinner last night at Pepe's?
Yes we were shorthanded but the deep bench that we have been touting seemed to all have taken the day off. Several starters seemed to be absent as well. This was far more than Tevonn being unable to play.
No one seemed to be mentally prepared to play in the opening half.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on November 28, 2015, 03:19:29 PM
Hello Fellow 'Saders
Recent grad here and my first post! Sucks it had to be after this game
Couple of thoughts:
-There really is no overstating how bad of a loss this is. We can point to one or two players or issues but that really doesn't excuse anything. The chance of an at large bid now is not slim, but completely none.
-We as a program are not ready to make the next step. Go back and look at the mid majors who have evolved. There are two big steps. The misconception is that having big wins against power five schools is the first. The first is not losing games you shouldn't. Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc, were doing that for years prior to their arrival at the so called "Next Level". Bad teams will be up for you night after night and you have to bring the intensity to the floor each and every game.
-Your season now comes down to two days in March. The need to at least be in the convo for at large berth is due to the high probability of playing a "neutral" court game against an Oakland team that can shoot very well. And even with an auto berth a seed higher than 12 will be near impossible.
I try to not be too doomy after losses, but this one will haunt this team all year.
Great post. I think setting the pedestal at Butler, Gonzaga, and Wichita State is a bit unrealistic. At-large talks, AP Top 25 votes, wins over ranked teams... It's all inflating our (the fans) egos. Cart before the horse. This program still budgets like a mid major, operates like a mid major, has facilities like a mid major, and recruits like a mid major. It shouldn't be all that surprising that Valpo is still just a good mid major team. North Texas and Fairfield have bigger athletic budgets than Valpo. Wichita State, VCU, Dayton have over twice Valpo's basketball budget. Expecting Valpo, with the market they're in, the budget they have, and the enrollment the school has to be a Wichita State, or a Butler, or a VCU is very naive.
Program building is a very slow and difficult process. Look at George Mason, FGCU, and Murray State. None of those teams have been able to turn a great season with tournament victories into sustained success. Butler and Wichita State are the exception, and not the rule. It sucks, but it's reality. This team can still make noise in the tournament, and has the best chance of any mid majors to pull of some upsets, but the recruitment and the operations are just not there to turn this program into a perennial at-large caliber team.
Maybe too much believin' the headlines.
Ugly
I drove up to Muncie from Indy to watch this one live and it was ugly, especially the first half. We were fortunate to be down only 6 at half. Alec and EVN didn't get much help from the others. Too many missed free throws, especially the front ends of 1 and 1, and too many turnovers. Our defense was pretty pathetic. Very disappointing loss. I hope they bounce back and don't have several similar losses such as this throughout the season.
Quote from: valpolaw on November 28, 2015, 04:54:29 PM
I drove up to Muncie from Indy to watch this one live and it was ugly, especially the first half. We were fortunate to be down only 6 at half. Alec and EVN didn't get much help from the others. Too many missed free throws, especially the front ends of 1 and 1, and too many turnovers. Our defense was pretty pathetic. Very disappointing loss. I hope they bounce back and don't have several similar losses such as this throughout the season.
Don't be too surprised if we do. We've had several bad patches over the years.
I guess the saving grace is that Valpo lost to a horrible team OOC last year and wound up okay. Maybe this loss will "haunt" Valpo, but in reality every game is equally important. Beating OSU and URI on the road were important. Taking care of business at home vs Iona and IPFW were important. Beating Oregon would've helped us a great deal. Valpo will be favorites in every game and every loss will be a stinging loss.
Quote from: a3uge on November 28, 2015, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on November 28, 2015, 03:19:29 PM
Hello Fellow 'Saders
Recent grad here and my first post! Sucks it had to be after this game
Couple of thoughts:
-There really is no overstating how bad of a loss this is. We can point to one or two players or issues but that really doesn't excuse anything. The chance of an at large bid now is not slim, but completely none.
-We as a program are not ready to make the next step. Go back and look at the mid majors who have evolved. There are two big steps. The misconception is that having big wins against power five schools is the first. The first is not losing games you shouldn't. Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc, were doing that for years prior to their arrival at the so called "Next Level". Bad teams will be up for you night after night and you have to bring the intensity to the floor each and every game.
-Your season now comes down to two days in March. The need to at least be in the convo for at large berth is due to the high probability of playing a "neutral" court game against an Oakland team that can shoot very well. And even with an auto berth a seed higher than 12 will be near impossible.
I try to not be too doomy after losses, but this one will haunt this team all year.
Great post. I think setting the pedestal at Butler, Gonzaga, and Wichita State is a bit unrealistic. At-large talks, AP Top 25 votes, wins over ranked teams... It's all inflating our (the fans) egos. Cart before the horse. This program still budgets like a mid major, operates like a mid major, has facilities like a mid major, and recruits like a mid major. It shouldn't be all that surprising that Valpo is still just a good mid major team. North Texas and Fairfield have bigger athletic budgets than Valpo. Wichita State, VCU, Dayton have over twice Valpo's basketball budget. Expecting Valpo, with the market they're in, the budget they have, and the enrollment the school has to be a Wichita State, or a Butler, or a VCU is very naive.
Program building is a very slow and difficult process. Look at George Mason, FGCU, and Murray State. None of those teams have been able to turn a great season with tournament victories into sustained success. Butler and Wichita State are the exception, and not the rule. It sucks, but it's reality. This team can still make noise in the tournament, and has the best chance of any mid majors to pull of some upsets, but the recruitment and the operations are just not there to turn this program into a perennial at-large caliber team.
Boy A3uge, I generally respect your posts but this one doesn't make a lot of sense. So North Texas (student body size:about 40,000) and Fairfield spend more on basketball then we do? What exactly is your point? How is that working out for them?? As for emrollment? Butler is about the same as Valpo. As 62 posted awhile ago, this was a trap game and one that they were very much focused on. The announcers basicly said the UCLA under John Wooden was in the house. Their biggest win since 2008! It is a shame but we should have known this was going to happen, it will happen to almost everyone. Look, 15th ranked Miami lost, at home, to NORTHEASTERN!! Northeastern had just lost to Miami of Ohio! Miami (Fla) had beaten mighty Butler by 10! Stuff happens!!
Now, back to the game. It is a shame that Shane missed the flight back from OSU, We could have used him today. The game clearly showed how valuable Tevonn is. We looked dreadful with the notable exception of AP. He possesses that Bryce Drew quality of not letting his team get blown out when everyone else was playing at a level which should have produced a 20 point loss. He put the team on his back and played brilliantly with NBA scouts in the house.
My guess is we will pound who ever is next. Practices won't be fun nor should they be. Terrible, just terrible...
Quote from: vu72 on November 28, 2015, 05:13:35 PM
Quote from: a3uge on November 28, 2015, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on November 28, 2015, 03:19:29 PM
Hello Fellow 'Saders
Recent grad here and my first post! Sucks it had to be after this game
Couple of thoughts:
-There really is no overstating how bad of a loss this is. We can point to one or two players or issues but that really doesn't excuse anything. The chance of an at large bid now is not slim, but completely none.
-We as a program are not ready to make the next step. Go back and look at the mid majors who have evolved. There are two big steps. The misconception is that having big wins against power five schools is the first. The first is not losing games you shouldn't. Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc, were doing that for years prior to their arrival at the so called "Next Level". Bad teams will be up for you night after night and you have to bring the intensity to the floor each and every game.
-Your season now comes down to two days in March. The need to at least be in the convo for at large berth is due to the high probability of playing a "neutral" court game against an Oakland team that can shoot very well. And even with an auto berth a seed higher than 12 will be near impossible.
I try to not be too doomy after losses, but this one will haunt this team all year.
Great post. I think setting the pedestal at Butler, Gonzaga, and Wichita State is a bit unrealistic. At-large talks, AP Top 25 votes, wins over ranked teams... It's all inflating our (the fans) egos. Cart before the horse. This program still budgets like a mid major, operates like a mid major, has facilities like a mid major, and recruits like a mid major. It shouldn't be all that surprising that Valpo is still just a good mid major team. North Texas and Fairfield have bigger athletic budgets than Valpo. Wichita State, VCU, Dayton have over twice Valpo's basketball budget. Expecting Valpo, with the market they're in, the budget they have, and the enrollment the school has to be a Wichita State, or a Butler, or a VCU is very naive.
Program building is a very slow and difficult process. Look at George Mason, FGCU, and Murray State. None of those teams have been able to turn a great season with tournament victories into sustained success. Butler and Wichita State are the exception, and not the rule. It sucks, but it's reality. This team can still make noise in the tournament, and has the best chance of any mid majors to pull of some upsets, but the recruitment and the operations are just not there to turn this program into a perennial at-large caliber team.
Boy A3uge, I generally respect your posts but this one doesn't make a lot of sense. So North Texas (student body size:about 40,000) and Fairfield spend more on basketball then we do? What exactly is your point? How is that working out for them?? As for emrollment? Butler is about the same as Valpo. As 62 posted awhile ago, this was a trap game and one that they were very much focused on. The announcers basicly said the UCLA under John Wooden was in the house. Their biggest win since 2008! It is a shame but we should have known this was going to happen, it will happen to almost everyone.
Both North Texas and Fairfield spend about the same as us. Having a big budget translates to better facilities, which translates to better conferences and better recruits. Without a bigger budget, I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect Valpo to elevate its program to that of Wichita State, VCU and Butler, three teams that spend over twice that of Valpo and have great facilities.
I'm not dooming the program based on this loss... but rather that we'll probably never be at the Wichita State/Butler level due to external factors like athletic budgets, conference affiliation, TV markets, and facilities. We do a great job with what we have, but I'm cynical that Valpo's program will never be anything more than a good mid major team instead of a perennial at-large that wins tournament games consistently.
A3, I agree we will never be Butler. But maybe in shooting for that level, we become a perennial tournament team who can win a game every year or two. Butler openly claims they want to be the next Duke. Will they ever be Duke? No. But in aiming for that look what they've become. Aim high.
Leading into the season, I expressed a concern that although we had the same team back and even if they all were a year older, they were the same team in personality and had the same approach to the game as last year's team.
After the OSU game I posted the following and was criticized for being Gloomy Gus.
"After the luster wears off, let's see how we handle Ball State. If we crush them, we've got a legit monster. If we just cruise by, we will have to postpone judgment. If we lose in Muncie....... Whoa! (Sorry, but that IS a possibility). "
Before this game on this string, I voiced my concern over this being a trap game and our team not rising to the occasion.
Why? Because this very good collection of athletes and their coaches, IMO, have a low "team intensity baseline." What I mean by that is they collectively do not YET possess the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude required to dominate games they should win and CONSISTENTLY pull out really tough games with just pure guts. How intense is every practice? How competitive is every 3 on 3, 5 on 5. Any bruises? "You play as you practice" right? Given what's on the line and the enormous expectations, this team should be coming out of the locker room EVERY game with steam coming out of their ears knowing they have something to prove to the whole world. That didn't happen consistently last year and to my view the overall approach has not really changed.
But all is not lost. Attitudes can change. Overnight. But it has to be a conscience decision on the part of all of the members of the MBB program in concert. Time for the "come to Jesus" talk.
I have to admit that I was not in a pleasant mood after yesterday's game -- it was better for me to do chores outside than to interact with the family. After a night's sleep, I am curious about the psychology of increased expectations. Of those who responded to the November poll, 70% of us predicted that Valpo would lose two or more games in November. We lost two. Somewhere we convinced ourselves that we could count on an afternoon spent watching the team elevating our own sense of well-being. We were let down yesterday.
I predict that the sun will come up in another couple of hours. I predict team will get back to work. I hope that they get healthy. I hope Darien gets his mind right, so his shot starts falling. I hope that the team can find joy in the game. I know that the team will lose its last game of the year. Until that time, I know I will find moments of joy watching them.
Thanks humbleopinion. You are so right. All the hard work put in so far this year should be taken into account. WithT Walker out, Skara still not physically capable of putting in quality time, and Jubril not feeling well it was a game that really pushed our team depth. Give credit to Ball State though. Perhaps we needed to come back to a more realistic opinion of where the team is. Valpo definitely needs more scoring from players beside Peters. The defense will always be there even with the lapses VU had yesterday. As Humbleopinion said let's get healthy. Aim to winning the horizon league tournament and carry on from there. There will always be let downs. Every team VU plays this yer will be bringing in their "A" game to beat VU. Go Valpo from someone who picked us to be 7-1.
Quote from: VULB#62 on November 28, 2015, 08:28:59 PM
Leading into the season, I expressed a concern that although we had the same team back and even if they all were a year older, they were the same team in personality and had the same approach to the game as last year's team.
After the OSU game I posted the following and was criticized for being Gloomy Gus.
"After the luster wears off, let's see how we handle Ball State. If we crush them, we've got a legit monster. If we just cruise by, we will have to postpone judgment. If we lose in Muncie....... Whoa! (Sorry, but that IS a possibility). "
Before this game on this string, I voiced my concern over this being a trap game and our team not rising to the occasion.
Why? Because this very good collection of athletes and their coaches, IMO, have a low "team intensity baseline." What I mean by that is they collectively do not YET possess the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude required to dominate games they should win and CONSISTENTLY pull out really tough games with just pure guts. How intense is every practice? How competitive is every 3 on 3, 5 on 5. Any bruises? "You play as you practice" right? Given what's on the line and the enormous expectations, this team should be coming out of the locker room EVERY game with steam coming out of their ears knowing they have something to prove to the whole world. That didn't happen consistently last year and to my view the overall approach has not really changed.
But all is not lost. Attitudes can change. Overnight. But it has to be a conscience decision on the part of all of the members of the MBB program in concert. Time for the "come to Jesus" talk.
You set the bar pretty high if you don't think last year's team was able to consistently win games with the right attitude - Valpo finished with the most wins in the history of the program, the lowest RPI, and the best winning percentage since the 40's. It's surprising that our "team intensity baseline" is so low for a team that is among the best in the country defensively, both this year and last year. I'm surprised that anyone could call last year's team anything other than a high intensity team. I seem to recall players constantly diving for loose balls and playing suffocating defense. It could perhaps just be that Valpo played one stinker on the road, and still has the capacity and attitude to win consistently with high intensity.
>:( >:( How dare you post something that makes sense, a3uge! This is a fan board where we irrationally respond to every high (rankings and at large births) and low (losing a single game on the road).
Quote from: humbleopinion on November 29, 2015, 05:30:22 AM
...... Of those who responded to the November poll, 70% of us predicted that Valpo would lose two or more games in November. We lost two.
I was among the 70%. I'm thinking that most who joined me figured the two losses would come from some combination of OU, OSU, URI, or Iona. I took Ball State as a lock win. Therein lies the extreme disappointment.
Four days to get a bit healthier and get our collective heads on straight (and bolted in that position, please) and approach every subsequent game knowing there is a big target, not only on our back, but on our chest as well. Every game is a championship game to our opponents. We have to be ready to play at that level every time out. Gotta play with an attitude from here on out. Take no prisoners. Be nice
after the game.
I don't think we should lower our expectations at all. We lost to Ball State because they played great, at home, and we weren't the team that beat OSU and was down to top 25 Oregon by 2 with 27 seconds to go, both, on the road. We did that without David Skara.
We are and can be a great team which should be in or near the top 25. The team that played yesterday wasn't that team. With three key guys out we aren't the same. When we lose to a lesser opponent when at full strength, then I to will be on the ledge.
Quote from: a3uge on November 29, 2015, 08:49:29 AMYou set the bar pretty high if you don't think last year's team was able to consistently win games with the right attitude - Valpo finished with the most wins in the history of the program, the lowest RPI, and the best winning percentage since the 40's. It's surprising that our "team intensity baseline" is so low for a team that is among the best in the country defensively, both this year and last year. I'm surprised that anyone could call last year's team anything other than a high intensity team. I seem to recall players constantly diving for loose balls and playing suffocating defense. It could perhaps just be that Valpo played one stinker on the road, and still has the capacity and attitude to win consistently with high intensity.
[/quote[/]
You're right. I stand corrected. Along with Ball State yesterday, @ Missouri, UNM, @ Oakland, @ GB and @ Detroit last year, I do recall a high intensity team with players diving for loose balls and playing suffocating defense for 40 minutes. Seriously, going over the strings for those 2014-15 losses I noted the same exasperation by posters that was seen after yesterday's game. Yes, the overall body of work last year was exemplary. But buried in that body of work were some stinkers that posters other than me attributed to, for lack of a better term, low intensity. That's my point. An added year of experience and maturity for the exact same team, IMO, should move that overall baseline higher than last year's. The Ball State loss, hopefully, a3uge, is that one stinker this year. That's my hope too. And maybe it was necessary to remind everybody that they can't let down and that they will sustain championship form from here on. In retrospect, it might just wind up up being the pivotal game in this season.
Quote from: crusadermoe on November 28, 2015, 03:37:06 PMI honestly never bought the hype of being an at-large. After the Oregons there were no more chances to prove we deserve one. So seeding above #12 was also unlikely.
We have an at-large quality team and we needed an at-large quality OOC schedule. That was our first and perhaps biggest mistake even if it was an unavoidable one.
As for doing it the Butler way yes we should have forgotten that Ball St is a long time just down the road rival and replaced them on the schedule with a home game against the likes of Southern Utah, Citadel, or maybe College of Faith. ;) ::)
This loss was a hard one, but in retrospect I feel like I should have seen it coming.
The first game after our 7 game marathon with multiple time zone changes following a holiday. The adrenaline from the Oregon games crashed and probably every ache and pain and exhaustion hit in. They played like they were tired and in a mental fog and they probably would. It's the catch 22 of mid major scheduling. You have to jump on the opportunities you get but those opportunities are often not in the way you want. We still should have one that game. But my guess is that this isn't (hopefully) a sign of anything majorly wrong with the team as much of an example of a large combination of variables that we just couldn't overcome.
Quote from: vu72 on November 28, 2015, 05:13:35 PMNow, back to the game. It is a shame that Shane missed the flight back from OSU, We could have used him today.
I had not previously heard of this or of the hand and foot mild frostbite he suffered while hitchhiking back across the Rockies. Yes had he made it to Muncie it certainly might have helped. :)
They still pretty Good on to Belmont! We can't change the past, now for the future.......
I will say this - any discussion of the Saders being a top 25 team should be put to rest for at least a month. The Saders have a lot of wood chopping to do.
Quote from: justducky on November 29, 2015, 02:07:26 PM
Quote from: vu72 on November 28, 2015, 05:13:35 PMNow, back to the game. It is a shame that Shane missed the flight back from OSU, We could have used him today.
I had not previously heard of this or of the hand and foot mild frostbite he suffered while hitchhiking back across the Rockies. Yes had he made it to Muncie it certainly might have helped. :)
If this is true, Shane has set a new standard for toughness for a Valpo BB player. He also gets the dedicated player of the weekend award.
I got to drive home 5 hours to STL with a bitter taste in my mouth.
Ball State obviously played very well, suggesting the possibility that they are underrated at the moment, but upon further reflection we were often a bit too slow on defense. It didn't register at the time, but later I remembered too many possessions where they just blew by our guys and made it to the basket for an easy shot (to say nothing of finding an open man under the basket several times including very late in the game at a crucial spot). I see from Paul's writeup that Jubril had headaches and maybe there were a couple others at less than 100%.
Meanwhile, FT shooting was atrocious and unacceptable. They finally missed a few in the 2nd half to let us back in the game, and for the game, they weren't too much better than we were (though the edge was 3 pts, ironically enough). Keith Carter in particular is constantly shooting them too hard, bouncing off the back of the rim.
As for Keith, one of his problems is that he constantly ended up guarding a guy 6-8 inches taller than him after a switch. We really did not handle their screens very well in my opinion. He got owned several times by some big player who easily took him to the hoop. I recall one time he managed to recover and get a steal, but I cringed every time I saw him trying to guard a big guy. He hit one 3, but his 3 pt shooting is still off. It was kind of hard to see much positive value he brought to the game.
I was not shocked to see Skara only play 3 minutes. Obviously Bryce tried him out to see if he could make an impact, and he couldn't. Sort of like Tevonn last year in the title game against Green Bay. Speaking of which, I sure hope Tevonn played through his injury out west because they thought it wasn't that bad and the result showed them it was more serious than that, because otherwise it looks like they decided they didn't really need him in this game (which I would say was a tragic mistake).
Having pretty well covered the dominant reasons for the loss, I'm going to go ahead and say a few words about the officiating. I trust my intent won't be misconstrued.
Shane Hammink's fifth foul looked like an absolutely atrocious call. I was beside myself. I also thought Darian got fouled on a 3pt attempt in the first half and there was a ref standing right there. It's possible it looked worse from across the way than it actually was. When the BSU coach was screaming for a traveling call on Peters late in the game, I thought they also could have called a foul on his defender. There were some other calls in the 2nd half that made the game feel a little like that game against Evansville several years ago when Homer got kicked out.
Of course I wasn't as vigilant about scoping out cases where Valpo benefited, but I'm sure there were some. I'll also say that there was one time they called a freedom-of-movement foul on Valpo and several Valpo fans behind me were screaming about it and I said it was the right call.
I honestly thought if we played good defense (it looked fairly good in the first half) and keep driving the lane on offense, we'd still win. I was confident after we tied the score, but then we got into a transition mess with them and they got the upper hand again.
In short, I agree with Luke Gore. Our defense was significantly lacking and that was a big factor.
Perspective: according to Hustle Belt (http://www.hustlebelt.com/2015/11/28/9811332/valparaiso-crusaders-vs-ball-state-cardinals-mens-basketball-recap-final-score?_ga=1.225415770.1916793868.1434873446), this was the biggest win BSU has had since 2003. We're not suddenly no big deal if that's true. It was a bump in the road, most likely enough to derail any hope of at-large, but the odds were heavily in favor of that. The bitter taste in my mouth has been gone for a couple of days.
Quote from: StlVUFan on November 30, 2015, 04:32:47 PM
I got to drive home 5 hours to STL with a bitter taste in my mouth.
Ball State obviously played very well, suggesting the possibility that they are underrated at the moment, but upon further reflection we were often a bit too slow on defense. It didn't register at the time, but later I remembered too many possessions where they just blew by our guys and made it to the basket for an easy shot (to say nothing of finding an open man under the basket several times including very late in the game at a crucial spot). I see from Paul's writeup that Jubril had headaches and maybe there were a couple others at less than 100%.
Meanwhile, FT shooting was atrocious and unacceptable. They finally missed a few in the 2nd half to let us back in the game, and for the game, they weren't too much better than we were (though the edge was 3 pts, ironically enough). Keith Carter in particular is constantly shooting them too hard, bouncing off the back of the rim.
As for Keith, one of his problems is that he constantly ended up guarding a guy 6-8 inches taller than him after a switch. We really did not handle their screens very well in my opinion. He got owned several times by some big player who easily took him to the hoop. I recall one time he managed to recover and get a steal, but I cringed every time I saw him trying to guard a big guy. He hit one 3, but his 3 pt shooting is still off. It was kind of hard to see much positive value he brought to the game.
I was not shocked to see Skara only play 3 minutes. Obviously Bryce tried him out to see if he could make an impact, and he couldn't. Sort of like Tevonn last year in the title game against Green Bay. Speaking of which, I sure hope Tevonn played through his injury out west because they thought it wasn't that bad and the result showed them it was more serious than that, because otherwise it looks like they decided they didn't really need him in this game (which I would say was a tragic mistake).
Having pretty well covered the dominant reasons for the loss, I'm going to go ahead and say a few words about the officiating. I trust my intent won't be misconstrued.
Shane Hammink's fifth foul looked like an absolutely atrocious call. I was beside myself. I also thought Darian got fouled on a 3pt attempt in the first half and there was a ref standing right there. It's possible it looked worse from across the way than it actually was. When the BSU coach was screaming for a traveling call on Peters late in the game, I thought they also could have called a foul on his defender. There were some other calls in the 2nd half that made the game feel a little like that game against Evansville several years ago when Homer got kicked out.
Of course I wasn't as vigilant about scoping out cases where Valpo benefited, but I'm sure there were some. I'll also say that there was one time they called a freedom-of-movement foul on Valpo and several Valpo fans behind me were screaming about it and I said it was the right call.
I honestly thought if we played good defense (it looked fairly good in the first half) and keep driving the lane on offense, we'd still win. I was confident after we tied the score, but then we got into a transition mess with them and they got the upper hand again.
In short, I agree with Luke Gore. Our defense was significantly lacking and that was a big factor.
Perspective: according to Hustle Belt (http://www.hustlebelt.com/2015/11/28/9811332/valparaiso-crusaders-vs-ball-state-cardinals-mens-basketball-recap-final-score?_ga=1.225415770.1916793868.1434873446), this was the biggest win BSU has had since 2003. We're not suddenly no big deal if that's true. It was a bump in the road, most likely enough to derail any hope of at-large, but the odds were heavily in favor of that. The bitter taste in my mouth has been gone for a couple of days.
While it's indisputable that you're bad luck, I do wish Valpo had more fans like you that traveled a bit too support the team. We have a hard enough time getting people to travel an hour from Chicago to go to a home game, so it's awesome whenever someone dedicates their time to support the program.
I don't think anyone has touched on this, but I'm wondering when was the last time the team had a full practice prior to the Ball State game. They had a travel day before playing Oregon, followed by another travel day prior to playing Oregon State, followed by a layover and Nike tour before flying home on Wed., followed by thanksgiving break from Wed. night to Fri. morning, which became yet another travel day for Sat's. game. With that schedule I can't imagine they did much more than talk about their game strategy and have walk-throughs and shoots rounds.
And on Saturday, they looked like a team that hasn't been practicing enough and exacerbated it with holiday downtime at the worst possible time. They came out flat, settled for perimeter jump shots early in the shot clock, missed 3 consecutive front halves of 1-and-1's, looked lethargic on defense, we're slow to double team the post and recover, did a terrible job of boxing out (especially when playing zone, etc.
I also agree with stl that if Tevonn doesn't have a serious knee injury and Bryce just decided to rest him knowing Jubril was sick and David was questionable, that was an inexcusably terrible decision in a game where a win would have elevated the status of the program to top 25 potential - something that has now been lost for the forseeable future - if not the rest of the year. Last, but not least, as long as I'm venting, what was that last play about where Alec was doubled up and Keith threw up a desperation 3 at the buzzer. No picks or screens to try to get Alec free. Just bring the ball over half court and lob it directly over to Alec, who of course had 2 guys draped all over him. That's the best we could do?
Take the loss, let Tevo rest. Rather he miss one game now then a month later.
How many games does Bryce need to win before you guys finally realize he knows more about his team then you do?
Quote from: HC on November 30, 2015, 06:24:05 PM
Take the loss, let Tevo rest. Rather he miss one game now then a month later.
How many games does Bryce need to win before you guys finally realize he knows more about his team then you do?
I actually assume that Bryce sat Tevonn because it was more serious than they first thought.
You have to admit, the fact that he injured it against IU-Kokomo, played against OU and OSU, and then sits out against Ball State does lend itself to the interpretation that he took BSU lightly. It was kind of weird. Interestingly enough, the writeup at valpoathletics.com said he injured it in Oregon, which is a contradiction of what was reported on Saturday. Then again, maybe he re-injured it in Oregon. That would make sense too.
I don't seriously think Bryce did that, I was just entertaining the thought since it was so compelling. Certainly if this saves him from multiple absences later, I'm good with it.
I too was at the BSU game...we looked like we were full of turkey, tired and un-inspired...except for Alec. I'm with you, wh, the last play was a lack of everything...from coaching to players executing. I just cannot imagine that we do not have a play for
Alec to take the last shot, I don't care if 3 guys are on him. He sees the floor so well that even if it was impossible for AP to get a shot off, he would find an open guy under the bucket or wherever. Now that it's over, maybe our "bad" OOC game is out of the way. While we were a 9 point favorite entering the game, I think we should have been 15 to 20 points better than BSU. We were bigger, stronger , better shooters and better defensively but that sure is not the way we played.
Go Valpo! Beat Bellmont!
Quote from: HC on November 29, 2015, 08:54:31 AM(rankings and at large births) and low (losing a single game on the road).
How many pounds are you talking for those large babies being born? :P
Quote from: wh on November 30, 2015, 05:43:45 PM
I don't think anyone has touched on this, but I'm wondering when was the last time the team had a full practice prior to the Ball State game.
I really can't say how much they practiced, but as I was walking off my Thanksgiving meal, I passed by the ARC and noticed that there were quite a few cars parked in back. One of the cars that pulled up, had an illinois license plate that read "A Pete". I'm guessing that the basketball team was on the floor on Thursday evening either officially or unofficially.
so looking back over the years...statistics would predict our loss at Ball State....
In the 8th game of the year... over the past 30 years, we are 12-18. ... that is the second worst W/L %. Game #28 we are 10-19 over the past 20 years... that will be our game against Cleveland State at Quicken Loans Arena.
looking ahead...
game # opponent W/L
9 Belmont 15-14
10 Indiana State 15-14
11 Chicago State 14-15
12 Missouri State 20-9
13 Belmont 18-11
14 UIC 17-12
15 Oakland 12-17 (same as Ball State before the loss)
16 Detroit 16-13
17 Milwaukee 16-13
18 Green Bay 16-13
19 Youngstown St 19-10
20 Wright State 22-7 (tied for best record)
21 Northern Ky 18-11
22 Cleveland State 14-15
23 Youngstown St 19-10
24 UIC 16-13
25 Northern Ky 16-13
26 Wright State 22-7 (notice we play them again)
27 Cleveland State 10-19
=====
28 Oakland 20-7 (we did not play 28 games in all seasons)
29 Detroit 15-6
30 Milwaukee 14-5
31 Green Bay 11-8
32 HL Tourney 8-5
Tevonn did not play because he couldn't play because of the injury.