OK, not really. I was just thinking about this year's round of conference realignment and teams jumping all over the place and thought, "Why not us?" My wife looked into it a little bit, and it turns out that the Missouri Valley Conference has nine basketball schools. With basketball being the big driver for MVC sports, you would think that a tenth team would be desirable. Valpo is a great fit geographically, and our enrollment is similar to MVC schools like Drake and Evansville. The MVC does not require football (Evansville has no football team), and we would upgrade big time in baseball and softball. (Creighton, Wichita St., and Indiana State in baseball, for example. Creighton's home field is TDAmeritrade Park, home of the College World Series!) We could keep football as it is (or upgrade it, or whatever) and move all other sports to the MVC. It would be interesting to know if the HL teams have had any serious discussions lately in this vein. I'll be all for it when they call and ask my opinion.... 8)
MVC still has 10 basketball schools, but even if they didn't it wouldn't be in their best interest to add Valpo. In all honesty baseball and basketball would be facing an uphill battle when it comes to recruiting against the MVC schools due to facilities. Valpo would by far have the smallest arena for basketball and the baseball facility would be considered subpar in comparison to some of these stadiums (Eck Stadium, TD Ameritrade, and Hammons for example)
The one positive is that if the MVC did want a HL program, it would be us. I see UW-Milwaukee always playing up their ability, and saying that MVC programs want them...but that just won't happen.
Quote from: mvandersee on November 28, 2012, 04:10:49 PM
MVC still has 10 basketball schools, but even if they didn't it wouldn't be in their best interest to add Valpo. In all honesty baseball and basketball would be facing an uphill battle when it comes to recruiting against the MVC schools due to facilities. Valpo would by far have the smallest arena for basketball and the baseball facility would be considered subpar in comparison to some of these stadiums (Eck Stadium, TD Ameritrade, and Hammons for example)
True, but we'd get all the top Lutherans in the Midwest. ;D I know that Evansville just built a new off campus basketball arena. And you're right about the facilities at the others. We don't generate enough basketball cash to interest them. The actual teams on the floor and fields could compete today, though...
I will say this, I like the idea and enthusiasm to think bigger. We would need to upgrade our facility, however. The rivalry will the 'Ville would be back!
Quote from: usc4valpo on November 28, 2012, 05:28:49 PMI will say this, I like the idea and enthusiasm to think bigger. We would need to upgrade our facility, however. The rivalry will the 'Ville would be back!
I don't know how to set up a voting poll, so I'm just going to ask a hypothetical question and anyone comment that would like to share an opinion:
If Valpo athletics had the option of moving to either the MVC or the A-10 Conference, which one would be in the best long-term interest of Valpo to join, and why?
Now that our non-hoops sports are so strong I think its NOT A crazy idea to draw an invite from the MVC.
If you apply the TV market calculus used by the Big 10, the MVC would be adding a CHICAGO team that has at least SOME Chicago recognition, esp. while Bryce is here. St. Louis is the true hub of the MVC and its tournament site ,but Drake, Creighton, Bradley, Ill St. and UNI would seem to like the extra Chicago games. You can fly direct to Chicago from all of the MVC cities I would guess. Easier than flying Wichita to Terre Haute
It's worth noting that Dallas Baptist will join the MVC (baseball-only) for the 2014 season. Joining, like DBU, as an affiliate member for baseball would give the Valley 10 baseball programs (VU + DBU + the current 8 programs (all but Drake, UNI)).
The Valley and Horizon League have enough teams in other sports that I think it'd be crazy, or at the very least confusing, if we left one for the other for anything more than a sport or maybe two. Also, there is no men's swimming/diving in the MVC, which I post more as a fun fact than anything else.
So where would Dallas Baptist be located?
Gets them a tip toe into Dallas cable TV market if D.Bapt adds more sports. Next Valpo and add Chicago? ;)
Below is the 2012 baseball standings (conference and overall) and RPI for the MVC. Where would last year's 2012 Valpo baseball team (22 - 8 conference, 33 - 25 overall, 145 RPI) slotted in if they had competed in the MVC? I think they would have competed with Indiana St. for the conference championship. They played Indiana St. on the road and lost 2-1 in extra innings (I believe 16 innings). Thoughts?
Missouri Valley Baseball 2012
Conference Record Overall Record RPI
Indiana State 14 - 7 40 - 19 47
Missouri State 13 - 7 40 - 22 36
Wichita State 12 - 9 35 - 25 45
Illinois State 10 - 9 31 - 19 58
Evansville 10 - 11 32 - 27 87
Southern Illinois 9 - 12 31 - 28 114
Bradley 8 - 13 27 - 27 120
Creighton 6 - 14 28 - 30 123
Eh, I wouldn't go so far as to say that we would have competed for the championship based on that one game. It is a good-sized step up in baseball to go to the MVC, as Wichita State is typically a NATIONAL player each year, Indiana State competed well nationally, and Missouri State/Illinois State are usually decent. Creighton had a down year last year, but is usually fairly good. I would have placed us in the top 5, just not sure where in that 5. If you look at their records, just about everyone has a winning record, whereas in the HL maybe 2 or 3 have winning records each season.
In regards to Dallas Baptist, they are located in a city called Cedar Hill. Dallas Baptist has absolutely zero pull in the Dallas TV market. The only teams you really see on TV in DFW are TCU, SMU, UNT, and the big schools (Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Baylor sometimes).
Valpotx, I think we are saying close to the same thing. I'm not saying we would have won the MVC last year, but that we would have competed (i.e. at least top 3 or 4 in conference and and in VERY close contention). The second half of last year we were playing at that level, imo (dominating Milwaukee, taking 2 of 3 on road against Wright State, beating ND on the road, almost beating Indiana State on the road). Again, last year was our best year in quite awhile and the MVC was slightly down with Wichita St. and Creighton having down years for them. Yet to be seen how we sustain as a program, which we will need to do to compete at the MVC level, but I think we will sustain and grow as long as our Coaching Staff stays intact.
One thing for sure is that our RPI would increase significantlly playing with the MVC conference baseball schedule as long as we compete well.
Yes, as even their last place team was higher than us lol
Here's a link to an "alternative" method to RPI of ranking college baseball teams. It's called the Nolan Power Index (NPI) and it weights a team's record against Division 1 teams, and it's Strength of Schedule. In 2012, Valpo's baseball team had a record against Division 1 teams of 33-25 (ranked 92nd), and a Strength os Schedule of .4741 (ranked 208th) for an NPI of 91. Valpo baseball is ranked more favorably in this method, than the traditional RPI of 145. Thought it was interesting.....here's the link if anyone would like to take a look.........
http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi (http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi)
Quote from: Valposter on December 06, 2012, 11:20:00 AM
Here's a link to an "alternative" method to RPI of ranking college baseball teams. It's called the Nolan Power Index (NPI) and it weights a team's record against Division 1 teams, and it's Strength of Schedule. In 2012, Valpo's baseball team had a record against Division 1 teams of 33-25 (ranked 92nd), and a Strength os Schedule of .4741 (ranked 208th) for an NPI of 91. Valpo baseball is ranked more favorably in this method, than the traditional RPI of 145. Thought it was interesting.....here's the link if anyone would like to take a look.........
http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi (http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi)
Here is the Massey Ratings baseball rankings, which include all baseball teams. You can also sort for NCAA, NCAA division I, etc.
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556 (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556)
Quote from: Valposter on December 06, 2012, 11:20:00 AM
Here's a link to an "alternative" method to RPI of ranking college baseball teams. It's called the Nolan Power Index (NPI) and it weights a team's record against Division 1 teams, and it's Strength of Schedule. In 2012, Valpo's baseball team had a record against Division 1 teams of 33-25 (ranked 92nd), and a Strength os Schedule of .4741 (ranked 208th) for an NPI of 91. Valpo baseball is ranked more favorably in this method, than the traditional RPI of 145. Thought it was interesting.....here's the link if anyone would like to take a look.........
http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi (http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi)
Oh yes, I tend to much more go to Warren Nolan for baseball RPI, than any other
covufan, thanks for the link!
Quote from: covufan on December 06, 2012, 12:42:08 PM
Quote from: Valposter on December 06, 2012, 11:20:00 AM
Here's a link to an "alternative" method to RPI of ranking college baseball teams. It's called the Nolan Power Index (NPI) and it weights a team's record against Division 1 teams, and it's Strength of Schedule. In 2012, Valpo's baseball team had a record against Division 1 teams of 33-25 (ranked 92nd), and a Strength os Schedule of .4741 (ranked 208th) for an NPI of 91. Valpo baseball is ranked more favorably in this method, than the traditional RPI of 145. Thought it was interesting.....here's the link if anyone would like to take a look.........
http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi (http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi)
Here is the Massey Ratings baseball rankings, which include all baseball teams. You can also sort for NCAA, NCAA division I, etc.
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556 (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556)
Wow, never seen this one. Interesting to see how they compared the different levels, with us at 185 in their format
Quote from: valpotx on December 06, 2012, 01:15:36 PMQuote from: covufan on December 06, 2012, 12:42:08 PMQuote from: Valposter on December 06, 2012, 11:20:00 AMHere's a link to an "alternative" method to RPI of ranking college baseball teams. It's called the Nolan Power Index (NPI) and it weights a team's record against Division 1 teams, and it's Strength of Schedule. In 2012, Valpo's baseball team had a record against Division 1 teams of 33-25 (ranked 92nd), and a Strength os Schedule of .4741 (ranked 208th) for an NPI of 91. Valpo baseball is ranked more favorably in this method, than the traditional RPI of 145. Thought it was interesting.....here's the link if anyone would like to take a look......... http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi (http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi)
Here is the Massey Ratings baseball rankings, which include all baseball teams. You can also sort for NCAA, NCAA division I, etc. http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556 (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556)
Wow, never seen this one. Interesting to see how they compared the different levels, with us at 185 in their format
Valpotx, keep in mind this site included ALL levels of NCAA college baseball (D1, D2, D3). Very different. I've never seen a site that attempts to rate different levels of baseball together. So Valpo is 185 out of 1,000 rated college teams. You can sort by just D1 programs. Valpo comes in at 154 of 297 D1 baseball programs with Massey. I've attached the link below with the D1 sort. These ratings seem to be all over the board for Valpo last year:
Valpo RPI: 145
Valpo NPI: 91
Valpo Massey: 154
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&sub=NCAA (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&sub=NCAA) I
Valpo would have a difficult time in MVC.
They might be top 3 in MBB, top 4 in VB & maybe baseball. Don't know enough about soccer top to bottom in MVC to say. Other sports they would be in deep doo-doo, unless they step up recruiting by a long ways. Track & CC would get killed.
Quote from: new2ff on December 06, 2012, 04:07:42 PM
Valpo would have a difficult time in MVC.
They might be top 3 in MBB, top 4 in VB & maybe baseball. Don't know enough about soccer top to bottom in MVC to say. Other sports they would be in deep doo-doo, unless they step up recruiting by a long ways. Track & CC would get killed.
Here's a news flash! We are already getting killed in track, cc and swimming. The change in conference wouldn't effect those results in the least. You can throw in women's tennis and men's tennis for that matter, although it appears the men's picture might be changing. Butler will get killed in non-basketball sports as well. It didn't stop them for one second in jumping conferences. In their case however, it was a bad decision for the student athlete with all the travel involved. Sure, they will make more money, that is understood. In the Valley's case our travel would be about the same.
Agree with you 72. It's all about mens basketball and staying in the mix to get a share of the NCAA pie by being in a bid-eligible conference. If they start tightening up the tourament sometime soon, the Valley seems like a very solid bet to stay in the mix. If Evansville, Drake, and Bradley can hang in that company there is NO reason we cannot.
The MVC is unlikely to call, but it's a "no brainer" to jump in and fix the other sports later.
As I read many of these posts I smile at how so many accept Valpo being poor or mediocre in SO Many of the sports. Such a great school this should not be the case, I don't get it.
Quote from: Valposter on December 06, 2012, 02:20:23 PM
Quote from: valpotx on December 06, 2012, 01:15:36 PMQuote from: covufan on December 06, 2012, 12:42:08 PMQuote from: Valposter on December 06, 2012, 11:20:00 AMHere's a link to an "alternative" method to RPI of ranking college baseball teams. It's called the Nolan Power Index (NPI) and it weights a team's record against Division 1 teams, and it's Strength of Schedule. In 2012, Valpo's baseball team had a record against Division 1 teams of 33-25 (ranked 92nd), and a Strength os Schedule of .4741 (ranked 208th) for an NPI of 91. Valpo baseball is ranked more favorably in this method, than the traditional RPI of 145. Thought it was interesting.....here's the link if anyone would like to take a look......... http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi (http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi)
Here is the Massey Ratings baseball rankings, which include all baseball teams. You can also sort for NCAA, NCAA division I, etc. http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556 (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556)
Wow, never seen this one. Interesting to see how they compared the different levels, with us at 185 in their format
Valpotx, keep in mind this site included ALL levels of NCAA college baseball (D1, D2, D3). Very different. I've never seen a site that attempts to rate different levels of baseball together. So Valpo is 185 out of 1,000 rated college teams. You can sort by just D1 programs. Valpo comes in at 154 of 297 D1 baseball programs with Massey. I've attached the link below with the D1 sort. These ratings seem to be all over the board for Valpo last year:
Valpo RPI: 145
Valpo NPI: 91
Valpo Massey: 154
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&sub=NCAA (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&sub=NCAA) I
Massey also has a comparison ranking, using several other baseball ranking systems:
http://www.masseyratings.com/cbase/compare.htm (http://www.masseyratings.com/cbase/compare.htm)
If you go to www.masseyratings.com (http://www.masseyratings.com) you can also find volleyball, tennis, etc. If you click on the valpo link, it will go to the current season. You can look up previous Valpo rankings from previous years as well.
http://www.mvc-sports.com/commissionerscorner/ (http://www.mvc-sports.com/commissionerscorner/)
MVC Commissioner Doug Elgin does regular interviews for the league. On this week's video (currently the big one embedded on the page) go to 5:00 to hear him talk about adding Dallas Baptist for baseball, or just listen to the whole thing. A lot of good things are happening in the MVC right now, definitely not a bad conference to work with in some way...
Quote from: new2ff on December 06, 2012, 04:54:22 PM
As I read many of these posts I smile at how so many accept Valpo being poor or mediocre in SO Many of the sports. Such a great school this should not be the case, I don't get it.
I don't think Mark L. is accepting these results, it is a matter of money for scholarships (this seems to be improving for some sports) and if it continues you will see a better performance. The other factor is facilities and although we "built it" for tennis with limited results, no doubt a new track, or an old one for that matter, would improve track and cc performances and a new pool would also help. All these things boil down to money and as the fund raising gets rolling the results will improve as well.
Quote from: vu72 on December 06, 2012, 04:29:37 PMButler will get killed in non-basketball sports as well. It didn't stop them for one second in jumping conferences. In their case however, it was a bad decision for the student athlete with all the travel involved. Sure, they will make more money, that is understood.
I know I won't change your mind, but here are a few things to consider regarding your comments. You can judge if any of these are relevant to Valpo as they consider future moves:
1. Several sports are either not impacted or impacted minimally. Cross country, track and field, Golf, Tennis and Swimming teams continue to play regional opponents throughout the year ... the only change is they will now participate in the A-10 champsionship instead of the Horizon Championship. That could mean travelling further for ONE event, but in most cases, that will be a short flight instead of the 2 to 5 hour bus ride they had in the Horizon.
2. It does mean farther travel for Basketball, Volleyball, Soccer and Baseball/Softball as those sports do have some aspect of round robin play within the conference. For men's basketball, the change is actually beneficial to the student athletes as they will spend significantly less time on the road and miss less class with the A-10 schedule. Again, the move means that in many cases, long bus rides are being replaced by flights that result in less class time missed. The athletic department expects impact on student athletes to be minimal, and in some cases like basketball, actually an improvement.
One undeniable impact is that parents used to driving to away games will either miss more games or incur additional costs.
Early on, Butler has not been "getting killed" in the A-10. Both cross country teams won the conference, volleyball finished mid-pack at .500, women's soccer was upper division at 5-1-3 and men's near the middle at 3-5-1. Not great, but also nothing to be embarrassed about. We'll see what happens going forward.
Quote from: zvillehaze on December 07, 2012, 03:28:47 PM
Quote from: vu72 on December 06, 2012, 04:29:37 PMButler will get killed in non-basketball sports as well. It didn't stop them for one second in jumping conferences. In their case however, it was a bad decision for the student athlete with all the travel involved. Sure, they will make more money, that is understood.
I know I won't change your mind, but here are a few things to consider regarding your comments. You can judge if any of these are relevant to Valpo as they consider future moves:
1. Several sports are either not impacted or impacted minimally. Cross country, track and field, Golf, Tennis and Swimming teams continue to play regional opponents throughout the year ... the only change is they will now participate in the A-10 champsionship instead of the Horizon Championship. That could mean travelling further for ONE event, but in most cases, that will be a short flight instead of the 2 to 5 hour bus ride they had in the Horizon.
2. It does mean farther travel for Basketball, Volleyball, Soccer and Baseball/Softball as those sports do have some aspect of round robin play within the conference. For men's basketball, the change is actually beneficial to the student athletes as they will spend significantly less time on the road and miss less class with the A-10 schedule. Again, the move means that in many cases, long bus rides are being replaced by flights that result in less class time missed. The athletic department expects impact on student athletes to be minimal, and in some cases like basketball, actually an improvement.
One undeniable impact is that parents used to driving to away games will either miss more games or incur additional costs.
Early on, Butler has not been "getting killed" in the A-10. Both cross country teams won the conference, volleyball finished mid-pack at .500, women's soccer was upper division at 5-1-3 and men's near the middle at 3-5-1. Not great, but also nothing to be embarrassed about. We'll see what happens going forward.
You have in fact changed my opinion which, I'll admit, was done based on just the distances involved. Good, fair analysis. Thanks
Also, factor into the baseball equation the fact that the HL has only five baseball schools right now. I am sure there have been discussions about who to add to get to the auto bid minimum of six, but I'm actually surprised there hasn't been a move made already. We have this season and next season to operate with five and still get an NCAA bid. (And maybe that's why there's been no real urgency.) But if a baseball team isn't added for whatever reason, players and coaches will be shopping around for other opportunities. Again, I firmly believe that ML has a plan in place to prevent this, but the dying HL is another factor to consider when possibly moving conferences, especially for baseball.
Quote from: new2ff on December 06, 2012, 04:54:22 PM
As I read many of these posts I smile at how so many accept Valpo being poor or mediocre in SO Many of the sports. Such a great school this should not be the case, I don't get it.
Valpo has a track team and no track...that should pretty much sum it up.
Quote from: covufan on December 06, 2012, 05:53:00 PM
Quote from: Valposter on December 06, 2012, 02:20:23 PM
Quote from: valpotx on December 06, 2012, 01:15:36 PMQuote from: covufan on December 06, 2012, 12:42:08 PMQuote from: Valposter on December 06, 2012, 11:20:00 AMHere's a link to an "alternative" method to RPI of ranking college baseball teams. It's called the Nolan Power Index (NPI) and it weights a team's record against Division 1 teams, and it's Strength of Schedule. In 2012, Valpo's baseball team had a record against Division 1 teams of 33-25 (ranked 92nd), and a Strength os Schedule of .4741 (ranked 208th) for an NPI of 91. Valpo baseball is ranked more favorably in this method, than the traditional RPI of 145. Thought it was interesting.....here's the link if anyone would like to take a look......... http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi (http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2012/npi)
Here is the Massey Ratings baseball rankings, which include all baseball teams. You can also sort for NCAA, NCAA division I, etc. http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556 (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&yr=2012&sub=180556)
Wow, never seen this one. Interesting to see how they compared the different levels, with us at 185 in their format
Valpotx, keep in mind this site included ALL levels of NCAA college baseball (D1, D2, D3). Very different. I've never seen a site that attempts to rate different levels of baseball together. So Valpo is 185 out of 1,000 rated college teams. You can sort by just D1 programs. Valpo comes in at 154 of 297 D1 baseball programs with Massey. I've attached the link below with the D1 sort. These ratings seem to be all over the board for Valpo last year:
Valpo RPI: 145
Valpo NPI: 91
Valpo Massey: 154
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&sub=NCAA (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cbase&sub=NCAA) I
Massey also has a comparison ranking, using several other baseball ranking systems:
http://www.masseyratings.com/cbase/compare.htm (http://www.masseyratings.com/cbase/compare.htm)
If you go to www.masseyratings.com (http://www.masseyratings.com) you can also find volleyball, tennis, etc. If you click on the valpo link, it will go to the current season. You can look up previous Valpo rankings from previous years as well.
Men's basketball is the only sport that will drive the MVC to add a school. That is clear, given the only good school they stand to possibly lose would be Crieghton, and they need a good basketball school to replace that.
Neither Milwaukee nor Valpo would be the best addition at the moment. The best addition would be North Dakota State, with their new basketball arena just $6 million away from the money needed for completion and construction already underway, the Bison look more attractive to me if I'm the MVC. That would change as soon as Milwaukee or Valpo fixes their facilities situation, but right now neither are going there.
I know we're raising money right now to build a basketball practice facility. Our eyes may be bigger than our stomachs - they want to blow away Wright State's Setzer Pavilion, which I think is an outstanding facility - but the good news is we're on track.
What is the planning at Valpo? Is the ARC the home indefinitely? What about a practice facility? What's the plan, folks?
If Valpo would ever commit to the MVC, it would have to be becasue of deciding uopn a strong committment to basketball. Other sports would likely be secondary (maybe not baseball or soccer. Also, they would need more funding for basketball (better arena facilities, primarily). Thus, they would have to remove football, as you cannot dilute yourself if you want to compete in an overall tougher basketball conference.