The Milwaukee board has a discussion going about whether we have become a "low major" conference. Of course the usual excuse about the "Butler effect" is getting a lot of play as the primary culprit. Those guys need to learn what the term "introspection" means and then try it. The truth is the 2 Wisconsin teams are killing the conference RPI all by themselves. If you take their respective RPI's out of the equation, the Horizon League would be 12th instead of 22nd - right where we have been for the past several years when the team they're so awe stricken by was on-board.
So, thanks a lot Milwaukee and GB. It's not easy to destroy a conference's standing and reputation all by yourself. But somehow you have managed to do it.
Well I sincerely hope you told THEM this too, at least!
Ask them if they think Geiger will bring back Bruce Pearl. (Conversely, ask UWGB fans if there are any Bennetts left in the pipeline.)
That'll shut 'em up.
Its OT in Milwaukee. They are tied with Northern Illinois. :o
Milwaukee survived
If UW-Milwaukee had to go to OT to beat NIU, what did they do wrong? I forgot the game was until about 8:45 last night, so I caught OT, but that didn't say enough about what happened for UWM to be so bad against a beatable team.
Quote from: wh on December 07, 2012, 12:02:08 AM
The Milwaukee board has a discussion going about whether we have become a "low major" conference. Of course the usual excuse about the "Butler effect" is getting a lot of play as the primary culprit. Those guys need to learn what the term "introspection" means and then try it. The truth is the 2 Wisconsin teams are killing the conference RPI all by themselves. If you take their respective RPI's out of the equation, the Horizon League would be 12th instead of 22nd - right where we have been for the past several years when the team they're so awe stricken by was on-board.
So, thanks a lot Milwaukee and GB. It's not easy to destroy a conference's standing and reputation all by yourself. But somehow you have managed to do it.
The reputation of this conference wasn't destroyed by Milwaukee or Green Bay. Yes, they are bringing the RPI down, but thats the least of the worries. The HL has 2, yes, just 2 BCS wins this season. That's what makes your reputation, not beating Kent State or IPFW. It will take some time to restore this reputation but it can be done over time. The Summit League (mid con) hasn't been the same since Valpo left, and I suspect the same will be true of the Horizon League. Like it or don't, but Butler was the face of the franchise. Final 4
s, preseason tournament championships and NCAA bids make that so. Who else has stepped up in their place? This conference is closer to a low major than a mid major right now.
*Butler has as many BCS wins as the entire conference...wonder why they left?
Quote from: milanmiracle on December 08, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
Quote from: wh on December 07, 2012, 12:02:08 AM
The Milwaukee board has a discussion going about whether we have become a "low major" conference. Of course the usual excuse about the "Butler effect" is getting a lot of play as the primary culprit. Those guys need to learn what the term "introspection" means and then try it. The truth is the 2 Wisconsin teams are killing the conference RPI all by themselves. If you take their respective RPI's out of the equation, the Horizon League would be 12th instead of 22nd - right where we have been for the past several years when the team they're so awe stricken by was on-board.
So, thanks a lot Milwaukee and GB. It's not easy to destroy a conference's standing and reputation all by yourself. But somehow you have managed to do it.
The reputation of this conference wasn't destroyed by Milwaukee or Green Bay. Yes, they are bringing the RPI down, but thats the least of the worries. The HL has 2, yes, just 2 BCS wins this season. That's what makes your reputation, not beating Kent State or IPFW. It will take some time to restore this reputation but it can be done over time. The Summit League (mid con) hasn't been the same since Valpo left, and I suspect the same will be true of the Horizon League. Like it or don't, but Butler was the face of the franchise. Final 4
s, preseason tournament championships and NCAA bids make that so. Who else has stepped up in their place? This conference is closer to a low major than a mid major right now.
*Butler has as many BCS wins as the entire conference...wonder why they left?
The FIRST and MINIMUM responsibility EVERY HL team has is to win the majority of OOC games against other mid major opponents. Hopefully, this is obvious to everyone. As the math shows, the HL should be at the top (12th) of the middle-third of conferences. Instead, we are in the bottom-third (22nd), thanks to Milwaukee's and GB's pathetic performance against avg. to mediocre mid major opponents. THEN, of course upsetting a few high majors along the way would raise our conf. RPI even further and raise the profile of the league more, as well. We all recognize that Butler did that. That said, the bottom line is getting some upset wins over BCS teams is not a substitute for beating the teams you should beat. You have to crawl before you can walk, but it takes 9 teams to make that happen - not 7 doing their share and 2 anchors whose fans are expressing that they wish Butler were still here to carry them.
Quote from: valporun on December 08, 2012, 10:09:29 AM
If UW-Milwaukee had to go to OT to beat NIU, what did they do wrong? I forgot the game was until about 8:45 last night, so I caught OT, but that didn't say enough about what happened for UWM to be so bad against a beatable team.
If you are comparing it to our win over NIU, you have to remember that Abdal Nader (who scored a lot last night) was suspended for our game.
The HL RPI has improved to 16th. We would be 11th (ahead of C-USA) if not for the contributions of Milw (315 of 347) and GB (308 of 347).
With that said, I hope we don't lose to those two
I'm not comparing our game to UWM's game against NIU, but what I don't understand is why the Panthers had to go to overtime?
Quote from: valporun on December 09, 2012, 10:37:00 PM
I'm not comparing our game to UWM's game against NIU, but what I don't understand is why the Panthers had to go to overtime?
I watched most of the 2nd half. It was pretty entertaining. UWM seemed to have the game pretty well under control, but then went through a dry spell and let NIU back into it. NIU had a couple of key players foul out, which hurt them in OT. It was my first chance to see the Klotsche Center. It looked pretty small but everyone is right on top of the action. There were several empty seats but if the place were full, I bet it would really rock. My wife and I hope to go up this year and check it out in person. Personally, I have always preferred the atmosphere of a smaller venue with the stands full than the larger arenas maybe 30 or 40% full.
wh, I do agree with your assessment of how the Klotsche Center looked for basketball. I was used to seeing it for HL Volleyball action, but it looked better to have more people in a smaller venue than to have a few people in a cavern. It did look a tad like a bandbox, but in a basketball sense, I'd rather had a bandbox feel where the fans/students are into the game, rather than an arena where it looks big, but you can't see the people for the lighting. Yes, US Cellular Arena was nice to use as a selling point to recruits, but having the fans being right there getting in your, or an opponent's, ear is better than playing in a place where the coach getting in your ear can be heard along with the crickets chirping in the background.
Quote from: wh on December 09, 2012, 04:58:20 PMThe HL RPI has improved to 16th.
Still behind the OVC, the MAC, the Southland (?).
Looks like we're probably out of the SOS cellar, at least. We seem to have pulled ahead of the Big South, the Ivy, and the Patriot League. It's Loyola (321), Wright State (331), and Green Bay (336) that are the worst SOS offenders at the moment.
Oh, Green Bay. They did give a thumping to a half-decent North Dakota State team. But, overall, 3-5 against the 336th weakest schedule in the nation. Did we know they were going to be this bad?
With Detroit's victory tonight over Alabama State, 7 of 9 HL teams now have winning records. Pretty cool...
Quote from: wh on December 10, 2012, 09:28:11 PM
With Detroit's victory tonight over Alabama State, 7 of 9 HL teams now have winning records. Pretty cool...
Interestingly, the majority of teams in each of the top 11 conferences (according to conf. RPI) have winning records. Of the other 22 conferences, only the Horizon League has more teams with winning records than not.
The is an important fact. If most of the HL teams have a winning record when the league play begins, then the conference RPI will improve throughout January and February because of the large weight your opponents record has on each team's RPI. It's been stated forever, just root for HL teams to win their non-conference games and the rest will take care of itself.
Yeah, but remember that non-DI games don't count for RPI. So for RPI purposes, Detroit is 3-4 and Youngstown is 4-4. And Detroit could go downhill - they've got a tough game Saturday against Akron, and then Syracuse on the road. (Of course, if they beat Syracuse it's a big chit for the Horizon, but seriously...).
Heading into tonight the composite Horizon League record vs D-I opponents is 41-33. Among the conferences that are ahead of them are the Northeast (41-58) and the Southland (18-42). If these numbers are similar over the next few weeks, then the HL's RPI will improve in January and February, while the Northeast's RPI and Southland's RPI will go down in January and February.
Quote from: chef on December 12, 2012, 11:15:23 AM
Heading into tonight the composite Horizon League record vs D-I opponents is 41-33. Among the conferences that are ahead of them are the Northeast (41-58) and the Southland (18-42). If these numbers are similar over the next few weeks, then the HL's RPI will improve in January and February, while the Northeast's RPI and Southland's RPI will go down in January and February.
Also:
MAC 43-51
Ohio Valley 44-50
Is there a site you can get these stats at?
In light of the Bracketbuster thread, it might be nice to be able to look at things like "MAC vs HL" etc. to assess how the unscheduled interconference "challenges" have worked out in past years...
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on December 12, 2012, 01:15:50 PM
Is there a site you can get these stats at?
In light of the Bracketbuster thread, it might be nice to be able to look at things like "MAC vs HL" etc. to assess how the unscheduled interconference "challenges" have worked out in past years...
For composite records against other D1's:
http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi (http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi)
To compare the HL against other conferences:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/compare?c2=missouri-valley&c1=horizon#chart (http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/compare?c2=missouri-valley&c1=horizon#chart)
awesome, thanks! now i'll have to cook up more schtuff :)
Milwaukee just lost at Fairfield by 16.
This should be titled "Would you like some Cheese With that Wine?" Thread, Just a thought ;D
I watched some of the GB/Wisconsin game last night on the BTN. Alec Brown is off to a rough start to the season. He had 8 pts last night, his 4th single digit scoring performance in 9 games. Overall he is averaging 11ppg and is only shooting 33% - not good for a 7-1 player projected as a 2nd round draft pick. Once conf begins he'll have a lot of favorable size matchups. Look for his numbers pick up pretty dramatically. In the meantime GB continues to be an RPI albatross.
Quote from: wh on December 07, 2012, 12:02:08 AM
The Milwaukee board has a discussion going about whether we have become a "low major" conference. Of course the usual excuse about the "Butler effect" is getting a lot of play as the primary culprit. Those guys need to learn what the term "introspection" means and then try it. The truth is the 2 Wisconsin teams are killing the conference RPI all by themselves. If you take their respective RPI's out of the equation, the Horizon League would be 12th instead of 22nd - right where we have been for the past several years when the team they're so awe stricken by was on-board.
So, thanks a lot Milwaukee and GB. It's not easy to destroy a conference's standing and reputation all by yourself. But somehow you have managed to do it.
The Horizon League has improved from 22nd in conf. RPI to 15th in just the past week. It looks fairly possible to move up another 2-3 spots by the time conf. play begins.
To make matters worse, GB has suspended Cougill indefinitely.
Green Bay just knocked off Marquette!
Quote from: HC on December 19, 2012, 09:11:01 PM
Green Bay just knocked off Marquette!
Saw that. How could that have happened? Marquette down this year?
I was thinking this was the 2nd time since Valpo joined the HL, until I realized I was thinking of their upset win over Wisconsin a few years ago.
Any team can beat any other team on any given night. They did it without Cougill who has been suspended.
The HL is now 12th in conference RPI. So much for the hand wringing on the Milw board that the HL is destined to be a "low" major without Butler.
Quote from: wh on December 23, 2012, 02:16:48 PM
The HL is now 12th in conference RPI. So much for the hand wringing on the Milw board that the HL is destined to be a "low" major without Butler.
Realtime has the Horizon at 15, just a hair over the split of 32 conferences.
*Butler is 7th overall and the A10 is 6th.
Quote from: milanmiracle on December 23, 2012, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: wh on December 23, 2012, 02:16:48 PM
The HL is now 12th in conference RPI. So much for the hand wringing on the Milw board that the HL is destined to be a "low" major without Butler.
Realtime has the Horizon at 15, just a hair over the split of 32 conferences.
*Butler is 7th overall and the A10 is 6th.
Realtime does not have Sat. or Sun. results. You have to get a paid membership to get same-day results on that site. With weekend games included we have moved up to 12th:
http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi (http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi)
Realtime has the Horizon at 15, just a hair over the split of 32 conferences. How about a little more positive twist:
There are 26 non-BCS conferences and 1 group of "independents." So, the HL is 6th of 26 mid-major conferences. If Butler were still in the conference, we would be 10th overall and 4th of 26th mid-majors. Obviously, it would be nice to have Butler's numbers to include, but the important point is that the HL has not fallen off the cliff in Butler's absence. In fact, 12th is probably one of the better HL rankings in the past 10 years. Another important positive as pointed out on the WSU board is the fact that the HL looks a lot more attractive to prospective Butler replacements than it was only 3 or 4 weeks ago when we were in the 20-22nd range.
Quote from: wh on December 23, 2012, 11:11:08 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on December 23, 2012, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: wh on December 23, 2012, 02:16:48 PM
The HL is now 12th in conference RPI. So much for the hand wringing on the Milw board that the HL is destined to be a "low" major without Butler.
Realtime has the Horizon at 15, just a hair over the split of 32 conferences.
*Butler is 7th overall and the A10 is 6th.
Realtime does not have Sat. or Sun. results. You have to get a paid membership to get same-day results on that site. With weekend games included we have moved up to 12th:
http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi (http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi)
Realtime has the Horizon at 15, just a hair over the split of 32 conferences.
How about a little more positive twist:
There are 26 non-BCS conferences and 1 group of "independents." So, the HL is 6th of 26 mid-major conferences. If Butler were still in the conference, we would be 10th overall and 4th of 26th mid-majors. Obviously, it would be nice to have Butler's numbers to include, but the important point is that the HL has not fallen off the cliff in Butler's absence. In fact, 12th is probably one of the better HL rankings in the past 10 years. Another important positive as pointed out on the WSU board is the fact that the HL looks a lot more attractive to prospective Butler replacements than it was only 3 or 4 weeks ago when we were in the 20-22nd range.
Ob viously well said. We are now 11th in the Sagarins, ahead of Conference USA.
If there are 6 BCS conferences and 26 "mid-major" conferences, where are the "low-major" ones, then?
Lookin' at you, MEAC, SWAC et al.
Quote from: wh on December 23, 2012, 11:11:08 PMIn fact, 12th is probably one of the better HL rankings in the past 10 years.
I recall the Horizon being #11 a couple of times, but even in the '09-'10 season, with Butler going 33-5, the league ended up #14. I'll admit I was a tad skeptical about the Horizon's ability to stay in the 12-14 range without Butler, but it seems as if they haven't missed a beat. Kudos.
3 strong RPI-boosting wins over the weekend to conclude non-conference play (other than BB's) - Valpo over Murray State, Loyola over DePaul, and Detroit over Canisius - have helped solidify the Horizon League's position as the No.12 conference in RPI standings. In fact the HL is now barely behind Conference USA for 11th place.
http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi (http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi)
Excellent job in the first post-Butler year.
Quote from: wh on December 30, 2012, 04:54:25 PM
3 strong RPI-boosting wins over the weekend to conclude non-conference play (other than BB's) - Valpo over Murray State, Loyola over DePaul, and Detroit over Canisius - have helped solidify the Horizon League's position as the No.12 conference in RPI standings. In fact the HL is now barely behind Conference USA for 11th place.
http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi (http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi)
Excellent job in the first post-Butler year.
In the Sagarin's we are #11 with Conference USA being #12. Valpo now #83 and UIC #79
Taking Milwaukee out of the equation, the HL would be 11th in conference RPI right now - ahead of Conference USA. That's not even counting that the other 8 teams would have higher RPI's than they do, if not for having played Milwaukee. I recently looked at their recruiting board to see who they have coming in, and it doesn't look too good. Even worse they no longer have the recruiting advantage of a nice city arena, and they have a coach with a long term contract. It looks like Milwaukee could be mired in mediocrity for some time. Not good news for the rest of the conference.
This tweet, however, was completely uncalled for: https://twitter.com/alexvoerman/status/297519888837246976
Quote from: wh on February 11, 2013, 03:04:54 AMI recently looked at their recruiting board to see who they have coming in, and it doesn't look too good.
Yeah, I thought, "they're terrible!! at least they must be young" until I found that:
--FOUR of their seven-man-rotation is seniors
--and two more are juniors!
--And one of those is Jordan Aaron!!!
Home Alone Screams (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5CSBZz3eOI#)
UWM athletics are a mess right now. New AD and several people around campus and the town are unhappy. They will struggle for the next couple years for sure.
It's kind of hard to go from telling recruits that they'll be playing on the same floor as Kareem did when he won an NBA title to showing them a gym where their initial reaction is going to be "boy my high school gym is bigger than this."
While obviously facetious about kicking them out of the Horizon, I do think we should wonder if they'll be competitive in basketball in the distant future.
Quote from: a3uge on February 11, 2013, 10:56:09 PM
It's kind of hard to go from telling recruits that they'll be playing on the same floor as Kareem did when he won an NBA title to showing them a gym where their initial reaction is going to be "boy my high school gym is bigger than this."
While obviously facetious about kicking them out of the Horizon, I do think we should wonder if they'll be competitive in basketball in the distant future.
"We", as the newbies, are in no position to be talking about kicking anyone out of the conference, is *my* point.
Quote from: a3uge on February 11, 2013, 10:56:09 PMIt's kind of hard to go from telling recruits that they'll be playing on the same floor as Kareem did when he won an NBA title to showing them a gym where their initial reaction is going to be "boy my high school gym is bigger than this."
Oh yeah? Well this is the same floor KAREEM JUNIOR sat and watched the 1996 MID-CON CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM!!!
Quote from: StlVUFan on February 12, 2013, 01:46:14 AM
Quote from: a3uge on February 11, 2013, 10:56:09 PM
It's kind of hard to go from telling recruits that they'll be playing on the same floor as Kareem did when he won an NBA title to showing them a gym where their initial reaction is going to be "boy my high school gym is bigger than this."
While obviously facetious about kicking them out of the Horizon, I do think we should wonder if they'll be competitive in basketball in the distant future.
"We", as the newbies, are in no position to be talking about kicking anyone out of the conference, is *my* point.
Again, not actually being serious about kicking UWM out.
Talking about getting kicked out.....Can someone explain to me how Chicago State was kicked out?
Subpar academic and athletic performances, and I believe some scandals
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 12, 2013, 09:52:41 AMCan someone explain to me how Chicago State was kicked out?
http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=print&thread=3496 (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=print&thread=3496)
Found this on the old board, of which I was not a part. Amusing to say the least. Apparently the takeaways are:
1) we've been talking about expansion and realignment for YEARZ
2) we've always had a tendency to start long threads that end far from where they started.
here's a series of interesting articles on the topic from collegesports.info:
http://collegesportsinfo.com/2006/04/20/chicago-st-to-leave-the-mid-continent-conference/ (http://collegesportsinfo.com/2006/04/20/chicago-st-to-leave-the-mid-continent-conference/)
http://collegesportsinfo.com/2008/10/24/chicago-st-joins-great-west/ (http://collegesportsinfo.com/2008/10/24/chicago-st-joins-great-west/)
http://collegesportsinfo.com/2009/04/29/life-at-the-bottom-of-the-conference-realignment-shuffle/ (http://collegesportsinfo.com/2009/04/29/life-at-the-bottom-of-the-conference-realignment-shuffle/)
I just love these statements
Re: Chicago State Out of the Mid-Con
Post by bk on Apr 20, 2006, 11:01am
"Valpo leaving the Mid-Con has always been my preference, but the wind no longer appears to be in those sails."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso_Crusaders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso_Crusaders)
On May 27, 2006, Valparaiso announced it would join the Horizon League, effective July 1, 2007.[1]
Re: Chicago State Out of the Mid-Con
Post by nkvu on Apr 20, 2006, 6:26pm
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Northern Kentucky to go D-1. There was some talk about it a year or so ago, but the administration stepped on the idea pretty quickly due to the cost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Kentucky_Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Kentucky_Norse)
The university (NKU) ended its membership in the Great Lakes Valley Conference (GLVC) at the conclusion of the 2011–12 academic year and began playing a full Atlantic Sun conference schedule in fall 2012.[3] Following the four years, NKU will become a full Division I member.[4]