Freeman's coming back to town. So will we start this game off like we have most others? I guess we will see. We have to come out ready to play and attack the basket. Our guards have to spark the offense, and hit some shots, to open up the inside. They also have to help rebound. We need to push it tonight and control the tempo.
Welcome back
Your dreams were
Your ticket out
Welcome back
To that same old place
That you laughed about
Well, the names
Have all changed
Since you hung around
But those dreams
Have remained and
They've turned around
Who'd have thought they'd lead you
(Who'd have thought they'd lead you)
Back here where we need you
(Back here where we need you)
Yeah, we tease him a lot
Cause we got him on the spot
Welcome back
Welcome back
Welcome back, welcome back
Welcome back
Welcome back, welcome baaaaaaaack
Quote from: KL31NY on February 28, 2013, 09:42:57 AMWelcome back
Your dreams were
Your ticket out
I believe it was the Athletic Director that was Freeman's ticket out....or perhaps his record over the last few years!
Well played, KL! It will be interesting to see Coach Dorow's lineup be unchanged.
I like the lineup change, but we don't seem to be playing with intensity. Also I see an issue. Richardson seems to have an issue with not starting tonight. We've had 2 fast breaks where she was driving, had Carr on the wing open, and rather than pass, she forced shots that didn't go in. This is no time for selfishness, or attitude. It's a team sport.
My first WBB game. No BB expert. But it appears that if they can surround Garardot with some talent and at least one outside shooter........
In offseason conditioning does the WBB program ever work on vertical leap strength? Seems like most rebounding verticals are 12"-14" and shooting verticals are 6"-12"
Great 3 for Garardot to tie it with 8.0 left!
Tough loss. Hard fought. Terrible clock management with 3 minutes in regulation, and we started the OT with one shooter on the floor. Well Played. ???
Quote from: IndyValpo on February 28, 2013, 11:39:49 AM
Quote from: KL31NY on February 28, 2013, 09:42:57 AMWelcome back
Your dreams were
Your ticket out
I believe it was the Athletic Director that was Freeman's ticket out....or perhaps his record over the last few years!
As expected, this poster continues with the barbs. '04 and Hoops, you have a clean up on aisle 5.
Some of you need to get very familiar with this image, cause it's where you are headed.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Corn_field_ohio.jpg)
Tough one to lose after a hard-fought comeback...simply put, Tab can't do it all...we just couldn't put the ball in the basket at all...and WSU starting hot like they did dug us a nice early hole again...
Carr 3-8 (1-3)
Richards 2-8 (1-5)
Scott 1-4 (0-0)
Starting Guards: 6-20 (2-8)
Wiedemann 0-3 (0-3)
Richardson 1-5 (0-1)
Bench Guards 1-8 (0-4)
All Guards 7-28 (2-12)
Posts not named Gerardot 6-23 (2-8)
Everyone not named Gerardot 13-51 (4-20) [25.5%/20.0%]
Tab: 14-27 (4-7)...thank God she played well. Unfortuantely, she was absolutely out of gas at the end.
Tab played well, and it's a shame we couldn't bring home the W. This one shouldn't have gone to OT. We burnt up 52 seconds in 2 possesions with 3 min. to play. That was probably the worst clock management of the season. And then, when Tab got us to OT, we rewarded her by starting it with her being the only shooter on the floor in white. May not have been that big of a deal if our guards didn't play like they had an hour to do so. I don't get it. We hit OT and our coaches turned into spectators. Granted, our guards struggled putting the ball in the hole, but if your shooters aren't even out there, you greatly diminished your chances. If you have an opportunity to watch this game again, pay close attention to our guard play to end regulation, and to start the OT. It speaks volumes to the outcome.
Quote from: jack on February 28, 2013, 09:56:26 PMwe rewarded her by starting it with her being the only shooter on the floor
Jack, just so I understand where you are coming from, who do you consider a shooter on this team?
Didn't get to watch this game while on the road. I lack the proper context that one would have following/viewing this game to make a well-informed comment compared to my posting in hindsight. Just looking at Tab's phenomenal numbers and Gina's stats (let's not forget, she also had a double-double), it's just a shame we didn't win tonight for what they gave us. They've both had some good seasons and their effort and heart is great as well. With Gina graduating this year and Tab the year after, I just hope we can bring up some new forwards that can be the relatively steady force this pair has been.
Starting lineup was switched up a little bit tonight and made zero difference whatsoever. There really isn't any trio of 3 guards that excel together over any other combination. I like having Richards out there the most because she is the one who can best run the point and best defender on the perimeter. Outside of her, it just depends on the game to who else should join her. Tab had another great game and Gina had an okay game, yes she had a double double, but it was 14 points on 19 shots. Nothing special. Lack of depth in the front court ended up being our downfall in OT, WSU had a couple of offensive rebounds that basically won them the game. Tab and Gina were definitely tired at the end and weren't able to secure the board or two that we really need in OT. Yet another game where we were in it with a chance to win and couldn't finish. Hopefully this loss doesn't kill us and we are able to manage a 6 or 7 seed in the conference tourney to avoid being on GB's half of the bracket.
Quote from: SadersofthelostArc on February 28, 2013, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on February 28, 2013, 11:39:49 AM
Quote from: KL31NY on February 28, 2013, 09:42:57 AMWelcome back
Your dreams were
Your ticket out
I believe it was the Athletic Director that was Freeman's ticket out....or perhaps his record over the last few years!
As expected, this poster continues with the barbs. '04 and Hoops, you have a clean up on aisle 5.
I saw the game on HLN. There was some awful clock management at the end of the game. How does a team down by 5 with 17 seconds left run off 15 seconds on the clock before taking a shot, leaving 2 seconds in the game? How do you win that way? These players must realize to stop passing the ball around and finally get the courage to shoot when Gerardot is not open. Now I see why jack is so frustrated by the women's team. They frittered away the clock and didn't give themselves a chance to win.
That didn't make you frustrated to watch that, sader? Or were you making sure Coach Dorow had the correct attire on at the time?
You are right, it is very frustrating. Getting beat by a far superior team, or a severe shooting slump is one thing, but by poor clock management after you claw your way back in it, is damn frustrating.
IndyValpo - We started the OT with 2 defensive guards again. Our only true shooter on the floor was Tab. Richardson and Richards should not be on the floor at the same time. Even though Richards knocked down a few buckets in this game, that's not why she's out there. We do have Weidemann, Carr, and even Miller, who all give us a chance to score, which is why they are here. Again, our shooters were off, but if they are all on the bench, they don't have a chance to score.
Funny thing about last night's game, and I watched this specifically because I suspected it would happen. Richardson had attitude because she didn't start, and apparently decided that, no matter what, she wasn't going to pass the ball to Carr. I'd love to hear someone's assesment of this that had the opportunity to watch this game again. You could see it in her body language when she first came off the bench. There were 2 plays specifically, where we had numbers on a fast break, Richardson bringing it up, with Carr on the wing and open, and she chose to drive in and force a bad shot up and miss. Whether she consciencely decided not to give the ball up or she just doesn't see the floor well, there was no excuse to force the shots she did. Carrs shots weren't falling last night, nor were Weidemann's, but you still have to stay in the realm of your offense, and continue to play team ball.
I still think we need to mix it up with the starting guard possition. In the OT we had 2 guards on the floor that both dribble far too much, especially when the time is against us. We squandered almost a minute in regulation on 2 possitions. Had we not done so, we may have avoided the OT with a W anyway. The bench didn't seem to be concerned at all with the clock ticking away. That is of concern to me.
Meanwhile, back down at FGCU, Betsy Adams is averaging 8.9 ppg and 22.9 mpg on a 17-0/24-5 A-Sun conference champion.
WBB fans... the HL has announced a change in the start for Senior Day... March 9th. We will tip at NOON against UDM... which means their crowd for the Mens' game that night will not have anything else to do but come to the ARC for the Women's game...I hope our crowd will at least match theirs!! May not be the last home game of the year for the women... #8 hosts #9 for the privilege of traveling to the shores of Green Bay.
Quote from: jack on March 01, 2013, 06:50:20 AMFunny thing about last night's game, and I watched this specifically because I suspected it would happen. Richardson had attitude because she didn't start, and apparently decided that, no matter what, she wasn't going to pass the ball to Carr.
This is interesting because the stats from last night have her with a career high 8 assists. I did not see the game but Richardson on a drive, like Scott, seldom passes so hopefully that was what was going.
To be honest even our shooters aren't real good shooters. Only 2 of our players shoot over 40% and one of those graduates.
I'm not sure how fair it is to criticize clock management for a team that was down 7 at the under-four media timeout and proceeded to win the last 3:30 7-0. On one hand, jack, you're criticizing Richardson for forcing bad shots (disclaimer: I have no idea about Charae not passing to Carr, I wasn't paying attention to the game for a lot of that part, I was talking to some folks I hadn't seen in a while), but then you turn around and want the players to take faster shots, obviously that they didn't think were good ones. We either scored or got fouled on EVERY possession after the last media timeout, so to me those are all good possessions. Yes, going a little faster may have given us a chance to win it in regulation, but we got back and gave ourselves a chance to win.
As for who started in overtime...would you have rather had the group that started the game that lost the first 89 seconds of the game 8-0? That would have been a great start to a five minute period. I'm not saying the lineup on the floor was perfect (obviously, it didn't work), but I don't really know who else should have been out there. Nobody on the perimeter could make a shot, that is a fact...so, if you aren't going to get any offense from your guards, it makes sense to put the best defenders out there.
The game was not lost in the last three minutes, or even in the overtime in my opinion. It was lost between the 8:00 and 6:30 marks of the second half. We had been down 60-53, scored five straight to get within two and the WSU went on an 8-0 run (a three before the 8:00 media timeout and five points immediately after) to push their lead back up to 68-58. During that time, we had 2TO, gave up an offensive rebound/foul/free throws and had a shot blocked inside. The lineup at the time: Tab, Gina, Shaq, Laura, Carr. That group had TWO segments of the game that they lost 8-0 in 90 seconds. (I didn't realize how bad this particular segment was until I looked it up) We had to work so hard to come back, again, that our best players, and the only one really who could score on a consistent basis, used up everything they had.
The fact is this: We are playing in a conference full of ATHLETES with a group of players who are very fundamentally sound and skilled, but many times aren't athletic to play with some of the players who are on the other teams. Our shooters can make shots, but they don't have a slasher threat to create space other than Shaq. Without a threat to penetrate the paint, defenders aren't going to sag off of a shooter and give them space.
The young lady from Chicago is a good step in the direction we need to go with our personnel. As valpo4life said, it is my understanding that the remainder of the kids being recruited for next season are bigs to help Tab and Liz. Hopefully we hear news on some of them soon.
Quote from: ValpoHoops on March 01, 2013, 09:03:37 AM
I'm not sure ...
in terms of great posts, this one is a Tabitha Gerardot. Thanks.
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 01, 2013, 09:00:42 AM
Quote from: jack on March 01, 2013, 06:50:20 AMFunny thing about last night's game, and I watched this specifically because I suspected it would happen. Richardson had attitude because she didn't start, and apparently decided that, no matter what, she wasn't going to pass the ball to Carr.
This is interesting because the stats from last night have her with a career high 8 assists. I did not see the game but Richardson on a drive, like Scott, seldom passes so hopefully that was what was going.
To be honest even our shooters aren't real good shooters. Only 2 of our players shoot over 40% and one of those graduates.
Yes, she did end up with 8 assist. I was only stating what was obvious if you watched it unfold. i actually had someone else make the same comment to me, as I was watching it.
I feel our shooters struggle because we don't really run an offense that would favor a jump shooter. Kind of ironic really since we carry 7 or 8 guards. We can't continue to count on our post players to do all of the scoring. So if Richardson had 8 assist, and Richards is primarily out there to run the floor, where is your guard scoring supposed to come from when both are on the floor at the same time? When you watch the flow, we seem to be playing with two pt guards, and a little confusion sets in. Every loss this season has come from teams with scoring guards. Last night, they had 3 guards that put up a total of 44pts. You have to have a shooting threat from a guard possition on the floor or you are far too easy to defend. We have been in a shooting slump for some time, but some of that comes from the offense we run. We don't use screens the right way to creat space and shoot. I would still continue to look for a different guard rotation until we find one with chemistry that works. If Richardson wants to play pt, put her out there with Weidmann. We need to get Dean more minutes and up to speed a little sooner. She's a good little defender, and probably one of our better shooters. I give Dorow credit for trying a different line up in this contest. I'd continue to tweek it.
Quote from: talksalot on March 01, 2013, 08:35:27 AM
WBB fans... the HL has announced a change in the start for Senior Day... March 9th. We will tip at NOON against UDM... which means their crowd for the Mens' game that night will not have anything else to do but come to the ARC for the Women's game...I hope our crowd will at least match theirs!! May not be the last home game of the year for the women... #8 hosts #9 for the privilege of traveling to the shores of Green Bay.
What are they charging nowadays for a WBB game, this might interest me and have me come to the ARC 5 hours early...
Cheer against Detroit twice and cheer on VU twice in one day? Sounds fun
I feel our shooters struggle because we don't really run an offense that would favor a jump shooter.
[/quote]
When the offense is ran properly and guards use the ball screen right away and don't sit there for 2 seconds then there will be open shots on the opposite side of the court if the ball moves fast enough. So the lack of good looks is our on the players on the court. And also, if you didn't notice they ran double staggered screens for shooters multiple times. That is a new twist to give the girls a chance for good looks from the top of the key. The offense is not the problem in my opinion, it's lack of execution.
Quote from: Kyle321n on March 01, 2013, 12:01:27 PM
Quote from: talksalot on March 01, 2013, 08:35:27 AM
WBB fans... the HL has announced a change in the start for Senior Day... March 9th. We will tip at NOON against UDM... which means their crowd for the Mens' game that night will not have anything else to do but come to the ARC for the Women's game...I hope our crowd will at least match theirs!! May not be the last home game of the year for the women... #8 hosts #9 for the privilege of traveling to the shores of Green Bay.
What are they charging nowadays for a WBB game, this might interest me and have me come to the ARC 5 hours early...
Cheer against Detroit twice and cheer on VU twice in one day? Sounds fun
10 bucks general admission, I believe. I plan to do the same.
Quote from: valpo4life on March 01, 2013, 12:08:13 PM
I feel our shooters struggle because we don't really run an offense that would favor a jump shooter.
When the offense is ran properly and guards use the ball screen right away and don't sit there for 2 seconds then there will be open shots on the opposite side of the court if the ball moves fast enough. So the lack of good looks is our on the players on the court. And also, if you didn't notice they ran double staggered screens for shooters multiple times. That is a new twist to give the girls a chance for good looks from the top of the key. The offense is not the problem in my opinion, it's lack of execution.
[/quote]
The players are talented, and trying to learn a new system. I did notice the double stacked, but we weren't using it properly. Some may be the players not executing, but watching the way were were using the screens didn't make sense at times either. Are they being shown how to roll off of them properly? It still comes down to having a shooting guard on the floor in each rotation. I love the fact that tab can hit that outside shot, and Gina at times too, but getting them that far from the hole spells disaster if they aren't hitting. Something else we lack on is the give and go, and the back door. These plays when executed are a nice size equalizer.
I really think we need to start working our young guns into the mix a little more. We have another guard coming in next year apparently, that averages 4pts a game. That wont get it done on the offensive side of the ball.
Here's the key issue (in my opinion) right now that causes the differences of opinion here:
jack, just based on your postings, I believe you to have "a dog in the fight" as they say. I'm not saying you absolutely do, and I'm not calling you out for it. If you do, its absolutely understandable why you have a very short-term view...ie, we need to do this now, change the system now, etc. That view is fine, and if my belief is correct, totally understandable...and again, I'm certainly not calling you out for it.
Now, the issue with that is that I don't think this team, as currently constructed, is good enough on a talent level to win a bunch of games...period (I thought 10-12 coming into this year would be about right). That's a result of what these coaches inherited when they got here. Saying that, I also think that putting their system in RIGHT NOW, and taking the punches is good in the long term...if you take this year and run some other system, then you have to start all over again next year, and you're in the same boat. I've been involved with building a team at the college level, it just takes time.
Do I want the team to win now, you can bet the farm that I do, but I also understand that this year was never going to be a great year in the W/L area, and that next year may well be a struggle too. However, once this year is done and next begins, its then fair to start evaluating whether or not the team is making progress. I have been to several practices over the past couple of weeks, and I was at a couple early in the season as well. I know that it hasn't showed a lot in game situations, but I do believe that the players - both on an individual basis and as a team - are improving.
Not having Liz healthy the last few games really hurt...it basically forced Tab and Gina to play a ton of minutes, and even Shaq to play at the 4 for stretches...I believe this was manifested big time in the WSU game, when Tab played 42 minutes...that's just too many for her and it showed. This has possibly made it look like we have taken a step back...we simply have ZERO depth, especially up front.
Main idea: The short-term outlook of this team (aka, this year) isn't great, but I don't think you can say "let's change a bunch of stuff to make sure we win right now" if it hurts you later on. Our current kids play hard and with passion, that's something you can not teach them to do...and they have talent...they just don't have ENOUGH of it as a group, and they aren't athletic enough to make up for it.
I think the kids that come back next year will build a solid foundation, and the kids who are hopefully coming in next year should be able to contribute right away. I really believe the 2014 class is the one that will be the group that pushes this program forward (The 2013 class was basically blown up with the coaching change...that's just how it works unfortunately).
Quote from: jack on March 01, 2013, 01:08:39 PMThe players are talented, and trying to learn a new system. I did notice the double stacked, but we weren't using it properly. Some may be the players not executing, but watching the way were were using the screens didn't make sense at times either. Are they being shown how to roll off of them properly? It still comes down to having a shooting guard on the floor in each rotation.
The staggers/doubles is newer stuff...its not going to be perfect yet. Right now, the players are feeling the reads and even through the WSU game, it got a lot better than from the beginning. This is going to be something that's going to have a very steep curve for them right now, just based on the timing.
As for shooting guards, the problem is that we don't have anyone who is consistently knocking them down on the outside. We have eight players who have taken at least 20 3FG...of that group the ONLY one shooing better than 33% is Tab (Wiedemann is second at 32%). To say we need a shooter on the floor is accurate...but who is it??
No Dog in the fight Hoops, just been following quite a few of these players for a long time, even prior to highschool with some. I've actually been following Valpo Hoops even longer, and have been a big fan, just wasn't aware of this site until a few years back.
I really don't expect miracles with this group or the coaching staff. I think they may be 3 years away from having a solid foundation to work with, and start winning consistently. I don't believe my views of the future of this program are short term, only my comments of the game at hand when posting. Dorow and her staff inheritted another program, period. They may have some very goods ideas moving forward when they begin to blend their own choices into the mix, and they can recruit players that play the style they want to play. My main observation while watching this group is, we don't seem to be maximizing our efforts with what we do have. I spent some time coaching the game as well, and it has never made sense to me why we start any given game with two guards that both seem to want to play point. You are correct, our shooting guards have been struggling for a while now, but we still need a shooting guard on the floor in every rotation.
I agree, the team, as is, won't put up a lot of wins. It's just disheartening when we lose games that we should be winning. I respectfully disagree, that clock management wasn't an issue in yesterday's loss. At the time is was an issue, again, we had 2 guards in that were both trying to play point. We dribbled off 52 seconds in 2 possesions and came away empty handed. I see this as a problem. As for who should be out there to shoot, we have some young guards that can shoot. I'd rather put up an open look and miss, than to not get around to getting a look at all. We have 8 guards. If none of them can shoot, than why were they recruited? We have a guard coming in next year who isn't known for scoring either. Maybe it's time we start figuring out who we will be counting on to score moving forward. There are offenses to implement to put them in the best possition to score.
You and I aren't that far apart on what we see, and what we would like to see. I think we just have a different way of saying it.
To start out, as far as Aliyah Issac goes (girl signed for next season), yea she doesn't score but will be the best defender and most athletic player next season. Also, she plays for a great team and is a part of a winning atmosphere, I don't wanna hear about what she can't do for us next season.
I don't think there are two players out there trying to play point guard, and in this system there really isn't a "shooting guard" position. The two off ball guards each do the same thing as the other, it just depends on which side the ball is entered. And if they get through a couple ball reversals, the "point guard" now has the same role as either the 2 or 3 had before.
Quote from: talksalot on March 01, 2013, 08:35:27 AM
WBB fans... the HL has announced a change in the start for Senior Day... March 9th. We will tip at NOON against UDM... which means their crowd for the Mens' game that night will not have anything else to do but come to the ARC for the Women's game...I hope our crowd will at least match theirs!! May not be the last home game of the year for the women... #8 hosts #9 for the privilege of traveling to the shores of Green Bay.
Seems like if I was a Detroit MEN'S fan I would just delay my trip to Valpo till the Saturday start time for the MEN'S game in the evening and not have to spend all day in Valpo where I don't know anybody anyway.
On the other hand, it's a great opportunity to buy spray paint and select good paint surfaces around the town.
I'm sorry. :( That was not Christian of me.
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 01, 2013, 05:15:46 PM
On the other hand, it's a great opportunity to buy spray paint and select good paint surfaces around the town.
I'm sorry. :( That was not Christian of me.
I though it was funny, 62.
Quote from: valpo4life on March 01, 2013, 04:42:13 PM
To start out, as far as Aliyah Issac goes (girl signed for next season), yea she doesn't score but will be the best defender and most athletic player next season. Also, she plays for a great team and is a part of a winning atmosphere, I don't wanna hear about what she can't do for us next season.
I don't think there are two players out there trying to play point guard, and in this system there really isn't a "shooting guard" position. The two off ball guards each do the same thing as the other, it just depends on which side the ball is entered. And if they get through a couple ball reversals, the "point guard" now has the same role as either the 2 or 3 had before.
Calm down there Skippy, no one made mention of what they think she can't do for us next season. We need a lock down defender and it sounds like she's the one for that. We also need guards that can score, which we need to work on in the off season.
There really is a shooting guard in the system we run. We just need to decide who that is, on any given set.
Anyone watch or follow today's game live, here's what I see from the box score: We led most of the first 30 minutes, gave up the lead on a CSU run, got the lead back on a run, and then gave it up again and couldn't climb back ahead for the end.
We went up 49-43 with 6:15, and then did the following on offense: turnover, missed front end of a 1-and-1, missed two free throws, turnover, missed 3-pointer (game tied by that time), made 3-pointer (to take a 52-51 lead), missed jumper (trailing again by now), missed layup, turnover, missed jumper, missed 3-pointer, tip-in basket after missed front end of a 1-and-1, ended the game with the ball. Final: 58-54 CSU
We build up one of our biggest leads in the game, and then we convert on just 2 of our 13 final possessions. We close with 3 TOs, 0-4 at the line (our only misses of the game), 2-7 shooting overall. I can't comment too much past the numbers I'm seeing and how selectively I might be seeing them and displaying for you. Simply put... tough
Yeah, it was a tough loss. We have to figure out a way to close out games we should be winning. It seems when we get down to the last several minutes of a given game, our concentration drops off. Going cold from the floor, and missing the free throws did it in this one.
I felt the coaching staff did, probably their best job of the season in their substitutions and rotations. We had fresh legs on the floor for most of the contest. We just need to get out of our shooting slump, and start hitting our free throws when we need to.
Tomorrow's contest will be a tough one. We really aren't a squad that can compete in 3 games in a 5 day stretch.
Quote from: jack on March 03, 2013, 07:23:24 PM
We have to figure out a way to close out games we should be winning.
Excerpt from a recent Torch article on Dorow, addressing this very game situation
Quote"We've had some games where we competed well when we found ourselves in a hole and came back, but still lost. We have to get this team to invest themselves fully in the game. They have to realize that if they want to be champions, losing has to hurt, and they need to find ways to win," Dorow said.
A recurring problem for the team has been the inability to close out those close games and come away with a victory, especially after the team has fought back from a significant deficit.
"Losing the close games comes down to the fact that the chemistry is still being formed. When we look good, we look good, and you can see that. A lot of that is the players understanding what the coaching staff wants of them and executing the game plan," Dorow said.