I wanted to create a separate thread...I didn't want something like 30,000 words lost in the shuffle.
This is a link to a forum thread. The reason I post this thread is because there are two articles linked inside - one laying out the potential suitors for the Horizon League, the second what I would do if given that list.
Link: PantherU's take on Horizon League Expansion (http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/showthread.php?4335-The-Horizon-League-Should-Pick)
Just read both links. Great info.......thanks for sharing. I am fully onboard in agreement with the best-case scenario in adding Belmont, Murray State, Oakland, and Northern Kentucky. NKU has nice facilities, great fit geographically and it opens up a nice recruiting market in Cincinnati.
Good summaries. The only thing I noticed is that you didn't point out that UMKC doesn't have baseball either. Unless they are adding it sometime soon, it is not something they have done in awhile
Is this considering the fact that UIC to the MVC is a done deal?
Quote from: a3uge on April 20, 2013, 02:18:40 AM
Is this considering the fact that UIC to the MVC is a done deal?
No, the scenarios mostly involve adding 4 new teams to replace Butler and Loyal with expansion to 12 teams. UIC is still included.
After doing a little research on NKU previously, I like them as a dark horse addition. As Panther mentions -- great facilities.
Quote from: a3uge on April 20, 2013, 02:18:40 AM
Is this considering the fact that UIC to the MVC is a done deal?
You're a funny guy.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 19, 2013, 11:18:58 PM
I wanted to create a separate thread...I didn't want something like 30,000 words lost in the shuffle.
This is a link to a forum thread. The reason I post this thread is because there are two articles linked inside - one laying out the potential suitors for the Horizon League, the second what I would do if given that list.
Link: PantherU's take on Horizon League Expansion (http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/showthread.php?4335-The-Horizon-League-Should-Pick)
Interesting and informative and helps switch the focus back to the HL and the business at hand. Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 20, 2013, 09:07:47 AMAfter doing a little research on NKU previously, I like them as a dark horse addition. As Panther mentions -- great facilities.
But according to many on this board facilities aren't that important. Only winning is important. ::)
I'm thinking that NKU being admitted to the HL could, by virtue of its commitment as reflected in those facilities and a requisite BB budget increase, jump into the "winning" column very quickly (ala FGCU). But that's only a hunch.
This clip from the NKU Facilities write-up says a lot. It would be quite easy to recruit to this.
Home to Norse Basketball, The Bank of Kentucky Center sits at the front entrance of Northern Kentucky University's Highland Heights, Ky., campus. Opened in 2008, the $60 million complex has laid a great foundation for NKU's future. The Bank of Kentucky Center holds 9,400 seats and serves as a multipurpose arena for not only NKU but the surrounding community as well. The facility serves the Norse athletic teams with excellent workout facilities, training areas, meeting rooms and beyond.
Link w/ pictures:
http://nkunorse.com/sports/2012/10/5/GEN_1005125048.aspx?tab=facilities (http://nkunorse.com/sports/2012/10/5/GEN_1005125048.aspx?tab=facilities)
If Valpo had this facility, we would be the new gem of the Missouri Valley Conference. Oh, I forgot.........
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 21, 2013, 09:41:08 AM
If Valpo had this facility, we would be the new gem of the Missouri Valley Conference. Oh, I forgot.........
We should just turn into a large state school so we can have money to throw at a $60 million arena. Who knows, maybe we can even get a $450 million slush fund going just like the University of Wisconsin system.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 21, 2013, 09:41:08 AM
I'm thinking that NKU being admitted to the HL could, by virtue of its commitment as reflected in those facilities and a requisite BB budget increase, jump into the "winning" column very quickly (ala FGCU). But that's only a hunch.
This clip from the NKU Facilities write-up says a lot. It would be quite easy to recruit to this.
Home to Norse Basketball, The Bank of Kentucky Center sits at the front entrance of Northern Kentucky University's Highland Heights, Ky., campus. Opened in 2008, the $60 million complex has laid a great foundation for NKU's future. The Bank of Kentucky Center holds 9,400 seats and serves as a multipurpose arena for not only NKU but the surrounding community as well. The facility serves the Norse athletic teams with excellent workout facilities, training areas, meeting rooms and beyond.
Link w/ pictures:
http://nkunorse.com/sports/2012/10/5/GEN_1005125048.aspx?tab=facilities (http://nkunorse.com/sports/2012/10/5/GEN_1005125048.aspx?tab=facilities)
If Valpo had this facility, we would be the new gem of the Missouri Valley Conference. Oh, I forgot.........
What's not in there is that NKU was delayed coming to Division I by the OVC because they decided not to admit them because the members of the OVC saw the Bank of Kentucky Center as a huge recruiting advantage.
I have no problem with it!
That's my point. No problem with it either.
BTW I underscored "serves as a multipurpose arena for not only NKU but the surrounding community" for a reason. I'm not sure about this because of being so remote and away for so long, but how much is the ARC used in this capacity? I do not think very much largely because it is a big gym, not an arena. On a number of other strings posters have complained about the lack of a good town/gown relationship. A renovated ARC (AKA Thrivent Center/Arena/Pavillion/Auditorium/whatever) that could host numerous cultural activities in addition to Crusader BB could be the catalyst to draw the community and the university much closer. It would be neutral ground. I mention this because we have a beautiful chapel, but its potential for community involvement and participation is very limited because of the religious nature of the building, but an arena is not.
I know that a renovation that might use cultural events as a part of its justification could be a problem if the basis for funding is the projected income from those yet to be scheduled events (Isn't Wright State having some of those issues?). But a 6,000 permanent seat arena with the primary purpose of showcasing the VU D-I basketball program, that coincidentally brings in cultural activities (concerts, shows, etc. that are open to the community) wouldn't be a bad thing.
If it is Northern Kentucky that might explain the delay. NKU weeks ago unexpectedly canned their AD which might have put the announcement on hold. It might also explain why retired Wright State AD Mike Cusak was brought in as the Interim Director. If it's not Northern Kentucky, well random stuff just happens.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 21, 2013, 12:34:37 PM
A renovated ARC (AKA Thrivent Center/Arena/Pavillion/Auditorium/whatever) that could host numerous cultural activities in addition to Crusader BB could be the catalyst to draw the community and the university much closer. ... But a 6,000 permanent seat arena with the primary purpose of showcasing the VU D-I basketball program, that coincidentally brings in cultural activities (concerts, shows, etc. that are open to the community) wouldn't be a bad thing.
Mene, mene tekel upharsin:12-2-2007: Study would look at arena/convention center in Valpohttp://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-would-look-at-arena-convention-center-in-valpo/article_392ca632-1902-5c0a-9569-d86ced5da0c8.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-would-look-at-arena-convention-center-in-valpo/article_392ca632-1902-5c0a-9569-d86ced5da0c8.html)
Quote"There's been talk for many years about having an arena for the Valparaiso University basketball games that would be suitable for the league they play in and as a small convention center to host events that need a large area," Mayor Jon Costas said.
...
VU spokesman Reggie Syrcle said the current basketball arena seats 5,100. Costas said the new one would probably seat 8,000 to 10,000 and would be a way of elevating the university's program, but it wouldn't be owned or controlled by VU.
"We would be very interested in seeing what options might be available to the city and whether there would be a relationship with the university that would be mutually advantageous," Syrcle said.
12-2-2007: Valpo will know about arena feasibility in 90 dayshttp://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/valpo-will-know-about-arena-feasibility-in-days/article_62345d95-c6fb-5047-858f-828e0733b9df.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/valpo-will-know-about-arena-feasibility-in-days/article_62345d95-c6fb-5047-858f-828e0733b9df.html)
QuoteStuart Summers, executive director for the commission, said the arena, which would be operated as a partnership between the city and the university, could become a substantial economic generator for visitor and convention activity and substantially benefit the city's tax increment financing districts, which provide most of the commission's funding.
11-25-2008: Report nixes Valpo convention centerhttp://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/report-nixes-valpo-convention-center/article_60733330-2835-5dbb-b545-993f70579997.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/report-nixes-valpo-convention-center/article_60733330-2835-5dbb-b545-993f70579997.html)
Quote"I think the report will be helpful for Valparaiso University because it will indicate we don't have the demographics for a full-scale convention center, but it is helpful with regard to an arena and where it might be located, how it would be used and the costs," Costas said. "The city wants to help the university in any way to expand its programs."
VU spokesman Reggie Syrcle said the university had not seen the report Monday afternoon. Syrcle said a new field house addition to the Athletics-Recreation Center is in the university's long-range plans.
...
The $65,000 study was funded by $10,000 from the city's Redevelopment Commission, $10,000 from the city's share of the county economic development income tax, $5,000 from the Valparaiso Economic Development Corp., $10,000 from the Porter County Convention, Recreation and Visitors Commission and $30,000 from donations by VU alumni.
3-26-2009: Study says new Valparaiso arena would have to be tied to VUhttp://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html)
QuoteIn addition to commenting on the feasibility of the arena, Hunden said a small convention center and a conference hotel in Valparaiso would not be feasible at this time because of the existing supply of facilities in the regional market, but both could be viable in five to 10 years.
The consultants looked at an arena that would cost $25 million to $45 million and be located near the VU campus to provide a modern, attractive venue for the university's athletic teams as well as offices, upscale locker rooms, training facilities, sports medicine areas, player lounge, study areas and meeting space.
The 5,000 seats would be retractable to provide a large floor area for expositions. The study also considered such amenities as eight to 12 luxury suites, 400 clubs seats, a private club/restaurant, concession stands, media room and a video scoreboard. Hunden said annual attendance could approach 200,000 by 2015 for 98 events, including live performances.
While revenue generated probably would be enough to cover operating expenses and produce a profit, it would not be enough to cover the upfront cost of building the arena. That would have to be financed through partnerships with the public and the private sector.
"There have been few arenas built in the last generation in a setting similar to Valparaiso's that would have generated the funds necessary to repay debt service without support from non-operating revenues," the study states.
The arena would provide benefits for both the university and the city. In addition to providing "a center of civic life and economic activity," it would improve the overall quality of life and community pride, increase property values, attract tourists and give the city an advantage in trying to attract new businesses.
It also would help VU attract student athletes for its intercollegiate sports programs. The study said the university's current arena does not compare well with those at other universities and is used to capacity, which creates challenges for expanding its own athletic programs as well as booking community activities.
4-6-2009: EDITORIAL: Valpo arena's time hasn't comehttp://www.nwitimes.com/news/opinion/editorial/editorial-valpo-arena-s-time-hasn-t-come/article_8f4a22bb-1920-584b-821d-d15162551498.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/opinion/editorial/editorial-valpo-arena-s-time-hasn-t-come/article_8f4a22bb-1920-584b-821d-d15162551498.html)
QuoteAccording to Hunden's study, amenities could include eight to 12 luxury suites, 400 club seats, a private club with restaurant, concession stands and a video scoreboard. It would be much nicer than the existing Athletics-Recreation Center.
The new arena could be built on the site of the Porter Valparaiso Hospital Campus, which will be abandoned when Porter Hospital builds its new facility.
A new arena on that site would solve the quandary of what to do with that old, sprawling building on LaPorte Avenue.
The bottom line, though, is that this is an idea whose time doesn't seem to have come. It just isn't cost-effective for the city to build an arena under these terms.
The arena wouldn't work without the university's involvement, so let the university share in the cost of the facility, either by paying for the construction or by being locked into a long-term lease that would guarantee the bonds as well as operating costs.
Otherwise, leave the idea on the drawing board.
3-26-2009: Study says new Valparaiso arena would have to be tied to VU
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html)
Quote
In addition to commenting on the feasibility of the arena, Hunden said a small convention center and a conference hotel in Valparaiso would not be feasible at this time because of the existing supply of facilities in the regional market, but both could be viable in five to 10 years.
Time to resurrect it -- sans luxury box and club seat junk -- that's not Valpo. But 6,000 good seats and some great cultural events targeted for that kind of venue would be cool.
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 21, 2013, 10:20:56 PM
3-26-2009: Study says new Valparaiso arena would have to be tied to VU
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html)
Quote
In addition to commenting on the feasibility of the arena, Hunden said a small convention center and a conference hotel in Valparaiso would not be feasible at this time because of the existing supply of facilities in the regional market, but both could be viable in five to 10 years.
Time to resurrect it -- sans luxury box and club seat junk -- that's not Valpo. But 6,000 good seats and some great cultural events targeted for that kind of venue would be cool.
Although never stated publicly to my knowledge, the feasibility of an arena/convention center in Valpo was tied to extending the South Shore Line from Gary to Valpo. That idea was also nixed in 2009. I'm sure everyone will recall that 2009 was the first full year after the bottom dropped out of the economy. Visionary yet costly projects like these got put on the back burner almost overnight.
Based on Apostle's clips, the original version was a 9-10K seat arena more positioned for all of NW Indiana. Revisiting the concept now in a scaled down version (6K seat ARC expansion and renovation -- not an arena/convention hall) and focusing on the City of Valpo and the contiguous towns makes more sense to me from a utilization as well as a financial investment perspective. It's proportional.
I agree, I think a smaller arena of 5-6K or so will be plenty big for VU and the City of Valpo. Right now Valpo isn't big enough to have much bigger than that. As much as a 10K seat arena would be nice there'd be no way we'd ever fill the place up. Maybe if Valpo was Merrillville University instead we could have a bigger arena because we'd be in the middle of the NWI population center. Valpo and it's surrounding area doesn't have the population to fill a large arena. If in 30 to 40 years the city has grown to 75-100K people, which it probably won't, or if enrollment increases to 8-10K perhaps we would consider building a much larger arena. But that's 20 years down the road. Yes, the university wants to grow to 8-10K but you need the alumni from those classes to fill the arena. I'd imagine a majority of the people who go to VU games today are alumni, and before we can start thinking about building an 8-10K seat arena, we need to increase our number of alumni who goes to the games which will take years and years to happen.
There's no point in building an arena when you will only fill 1/3 of the way for most games.
Initially it said that...it was downsized rather quickly:
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 21, 2013, 07:34:41 PMThe 5,000 seats would be retractable to provide a large floor area for expositions. The study also considered such amenities as eight to 12 luxury suites, 400 clubs seats, a private club/restaurant, concession stands, media room and a video scoreboard. Hunden said annual attendance could approach 200,000 by 2015 for 98 events, including live performances.
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html)
Apostle, those historical snippets were great for someone like myself who wasn't aware of those earlier conversations. Thank you for that. I was glad to see that those discussions had actually occurred -- shows someone was thinking of the future. I remain convinced that a renovated and expanded ARK could be the key to opening a closer relationship with the city. So Apostle, what's your take on this?
My take is not really helpful. I just remembered reading things about it once upon a time and looked up the relevant info.
My other take is that
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/1013_mCWDcx1iVOz59dt.jpg)
Thanks for doing the digging. It'll be what it will be. :deadhorse:
First time poster on this board from another school, so hope that is O.K. :thumbsup:
Very nice matrix set up, but I think there needs to be a couple of categories added or modified:
First off, one of the most important metrics needs to size of a metro area. The bigger the metro area, the more points added. Chicagoland was the reason that Loyola was chosen by the MVC, not because of historical RPI. A school like Morehead St in a micropolitan area has no shot at the Horizon unless it makes the NCAA's five years in a row with continued success. Same with Murray St. Although IUPUI doesn't have many credentials (except academic), it does have the Indy metro area. NKU, SIUE, Belmont, Oakland, and Robert Morris all get significant points just because they lie in major metro areas, whereas the Dakota's get limited pts.
2nd: public / private balance in the Horizon. Since the Horizon lost two private schools in Butler and Loyola, Detroit and Valpo have to be clamoring to regain additional private schools. Case in point, the MVC lost a private, and then chose a private to replace it to restore a 6 public to 4 private balance. So schools like Robert Morris, Belmont, and maybe even Evansville (which was rumored last fall), are going to be pushed especially hard by Detroit and Valpo. The private schools tend to stick up for each other, other Valpo, Loyola, and Butler did for protecting Detroit from the Horizon adding Oakland. With only two private schools left in the Horizon, the private schools no longer form a block to stop a school, but they will want their numbers at least partially restored. Even a DII school like Bellarmine in Louisville could be pushed by them. A reputable private school should get like 20 extra points. If public schools were being replaced, then there wouldn't be premium extra points added for private schools.
3rd: travel expenses. Minimizing travel expenses in Olympic sports is a huge deal for all Horizon teams. What matters is not how close a new school is to the closest team, but air fares be required to the new school from the furthest Horizon teams. UWGB probably doesn't want Robert Morris or Belmont, whereas the idea of UMKC, Omaha, and the Dakotas is the last place that Cleveland St, YSU, or WSU want. With a base of 20 points, subtract 5 points for conference member that would have to pay for air fares to a new school (over 500 miles) and keep subtracting even if the number becomes negative.
4th: academics. Some schools simply won't be acceptable unless there isn't a choice: like Chicago St. Others, like those with strict admission standards (Belmont) or those with med school (Oakland, UMKC, USD, IUPUI) or extensive grad schools (IUPUI, NDSU, SDSU) get extra points, even if the public isn't aware.
5th: baseball. Because baseball is a big need in the Horizon, add 20 points if they have baseball or will add it.
6th: football. While football is most often a big positive, Horizon schools don't look at it as positive because it pulls money away from basketball and into football. Look at Youngstown State. Murray St, W Ill, the Dakota schools, and even Robert Morris will not be looked at as positively by Horizon Presidents because they have football. Moreover, Murray St and Robert Morris likely won't accept a Horizon bid unless they find a conference for their football teams, which likely means dropping their teams to non-scholarship. Subtract 20 pts for football, unless a school with Horizon interest can drop scholarships.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on April 19, 2013, 11:18:58 PM[size=78%] I wanted to create a separate thread...I didn't want something like 30,000 words lost in the shuffle. This is a link to a forum thread. The reason I post this thread is because there are two articles linked inside - one laying out the potential suitors for the Horizon League, the second what I would do if given that list. [/size]
Had to chuckle when I read kingsteve's reply on the Milw board:
Dylan:
From Rob Demovsky's notes ...
Horizon League teams haven't been told how many conference games to expect next season. The league is down to eight schools for next season after Loyola announced it was leaving for the Missouri Valley Conference effective July 1.
In two years, the Horizon League has gone from 10 schools to eight. Before Butler's departure last spring, the league schedule consisted of 18 games. Last year, teams played 16 conference games.
This is reportedly creating some real issues with filling out the non-conference schedule. The coaches have calls out to everyone, but can't commit to anyone.
kingsteve:
This is SO Lecrone!! When something finally does happen you can count on two things...it will be late and will be underwhelming
In fairness, although the clock is still running and the hour late, the verdict is still out as to LeCrone's performance in dealing with the replacement/expansion issue. Hopefully (and I'm serious about this), he'll blow us all away with a great master plan and have the last laugh. I'll be the first to congratulate him if that happens.
On a related front, I notice that in the aftermath of the MVC/Loyola thing some reporters and pundits are now giving credence to the idea of promoting underperforming (undeserving) programs that reside in large metropolitan areas. IUPUI has been mentioned as someone that could open new recruiting relationships in Indy, the same with UMKC in Kansas City, etc. I think we should not lose sight that until the MVC/Loyola move, conferences all over the country have poached schools with the best performing, most deserving programs. The MVC has taken a heck of a risk here with this supposed "long view" strategy, and I think the wise thing to do is to take a wait-and-see approach before adopting anything that even closely resembles what they did. More specifically, the last thing I would want to see the HL do is invite IUPUI based on "potential," access to Indianapolis media exposure, ability to recruiting in talent rich hoosier land, blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc.
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2013, 07:46:25 PM
I think we should not lose sight that until the MVC/Loyola move, conferences all over the country have poached schools with the best performing, most deserving programs.
That's not true. Most of the BCS moves have been based on what media markets they could add to their conference. For example, Rutgers and Maryland to the Big 10 had absolutely nothing to do with the best performing/deserving program.
In regards to IUPUI, they have absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to the HL. They do not sponsor baseball.
Quote from: Big D on April 24, 2013, 08:02:52 PM
In regards to IUPUI, they have absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to the HL. They do not sponsor baseball.
I hope there's more than baseball keeping them from consideration. Otherwise, all they would have to do is agree to start a program and they're in.
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2013, 09:53:25 PM
Quote from: Big D on April 24, 2013, 08:02:52 PM
In regards to IUPUI, they have absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to the HL. They do not sponsor baseball.
I hope there's more than baseball keeping them from consideration. Otherwise, all they would have to do is agree to start a program and they're in.
Agreed. I hope LeCrone can show some creativity in this expansion. Detroit is not amused at his effort to reassemble the 1994 Mid-Continent Conference.
I wouldn't be too upset if the HL did take IUPUI IF AND ONLY IF a) Valpo is out of the HL start of the 2014 season or b) IUPUI is a part of some giant unforeseen expansion of 4 teams this summer. If they're #4 I can live with it. I can see LeCrone wanting the Indianapolis market once again and he probably is tempted to do what the MVC did with taking on Loyola. If they're the only team or one of two teams then I wouldn't be too thrilled, it would be a GIANT risk, similarly to what the MVC did taking on Loyola. If IUPUI is a part of a large expansion then I don't care and I think it would be viewed as a good idea to possibly get Indianapolis back into the mix, afterall the HL is headquartered in Indy. If it's just IUPUI, guess it's better than just having 8 teams but... We all know the HL can do better.
Wouldn't be shocked if LeCrone's big move is getting Oakland and IUPUI... not too thrilled about IUPUI, if it were Northern Kentucky instead I'd be pretty happy with the move.
Like I said the only way I will support getting IUPUI if they are apart of a big 4 team expansion... if not I want OUT!!!
Quote from: classof2014 on April 24, 2013, 10:45:13 PMLike I said the only way I will support getting IUPUI if they are apart of a big 4 team expansion... if not I want OUT!!!
Again, though, what's the point of adding a whole bunch of teams just to add a whole bunch of teams?
x money divided by 8 teams is a lot better than x+1-ish money divided by 12.
Thus, if you're adding real quality, then by all means add four! But then you wouldn't be if you were adding the IUPUIPFWPNCs of the world.
If IUPUI is apart of a 4 team expansion that includes: Oakland, Belmont, Murray State, etc... then I can live with IUPUI as number 4. Yes, if IUPUI is the only team coming to the HL, then I want out IMMEDIATELY!
I kinda look at the MVC's poaching of Loyola from the HL in the same equivalent of a fantasy sports trade being 'high risk-high reward'. For the MVC to take a risk in adding Loyola, they could get a high reward of poaching players from the Chicago area that really keeps Depaul and UIC from recruiting hometown talent. I'm interested in what will happen with the recruiting in Chicago now that Loyola can say "We are in the MVC now, instead of lost in the chaos of the Horizon League".
Quote from: classof2014 on April 25, 2013, 09:19:04 AMIf IUPUI is apart of a 4 team expansion that includes: Oakland, Belmont, Murray State, etc... then I can live with IUPUI as number 4.
I have as strong a distaste for odd and especially prime numbers as anyone, but, why would anyone ever do such a thing?
Would the B1G ever think, "eh, we added Nebraska, Rutgers, and Maryland, so we can afford to take a chance on SUNY-Plattsburgh"?
i realize you're too young to know this reference, so I'm posting it here for your edification:
Sesame Street - "One of these things..." (Bird seed) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZ6tvqhk8U#)
Here's how I'm looking at it right now. If the HL can add Oakland and either Belmont/Murray State we're in a better position than 2 to 3 seasons ago. Oakland replaces Loyola and since Oakland is better than Loyola we get a boost, and Belmont/Murray State replaces Butler, which is pretty much same quality. I know Butler made it to 2 consecutive ncaa championship games but honestly they're never going to be back, at least not for another 20 years. So for the HL I'm looking at Oakland and one of the top two OVC schools as our best options for expansion. If Northern Kentucky comes instead of an OVC school I will be content.
I have no dog in this race, and I know noone wants the dakota schools due to travel, but what about this scenario.
Add Oakland, usd, sdsu, and ndsu. Then split into an east west league (6 per division). West would be Milwaukee, UWGB, usd, sdsu, ndsu, and UIC. East would be Valpo, Wright State, Cleveland State, Oakland, Detroit, and YSU.
12 team league. That is a pretty good league that would do well in the RPI and be right with the MVC, if not ahead.
WIU goes to the OVC, then IUPUI, IPFW, Denver, and UNO to the WAC. Problem solved, no more summit league.
also, I don't think the Horizon is realistically going to add an OVC school.
Quote from: wh on April 24, 2013, 09:53:25 PM
Quote from: Big D on April 24, 2013, 08:02:52 PM
In regards to IUPUI, they have absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to the HL. They do not sponsor baseball.
I hope there's more than baseball keeping them from consideration. Otherwise, all they would have to do is agree to start a program and they're in.
If you go back about 1 year and read any of the discussions on any of the HL message boards you will find several quotes about IUPUI and IPFW. I know WSU's AD pretty well and I've been told that all 8 HL presidents told LeCrone that those 2 schools will not be considered under any circumstances. That hasn't changed in the last year so I do not understand why those 2 names keep coming up on message boards.
Quote from: isu87 on April 25, 2013, 11:59:49 AM
I have no dog in this race, and I know noone wants the dakota schools due to travel, but what about this scenario.
Add Oakland, usd, sdsu, and ndsu. Then split into an east west league (6 per division). West would be Milwaukee, UWGB, usd, sdsu, ndsu, and UIC. East would be Valpo, Wright State, Cleveland State, Oakland, Detroit, and YSU.
12 team league. That is a pretty good league that would do well in the RPI and be right with the MVC, if not ahead.
WIU goes to the OVC, then IUPUI, IPFW, Denver, and UNO to the WAC. Problem solved, no more summit league.
also, I don't think the Horizon is realistically going to add an OVC school.
I think there is a good chance the HL can add an OVC school if we try. I am pretty positive the OVC will add at least one HL school if the HL is dumb enough to try to add any school from ND or SD. Adding schools from MI, OH, KY, TN add good recruiting areas to the HL. Adding ND and/or SD does nothing for the HL except add huge travel expenses to our sports.
In the next 5 years here are the scenarios that I see happening to the Horizon League:
1.) The Horizon League is able to poach better teams from lower conferences, mostly from the Summit League and the OVC, possibly a few teams from western PA/NY. Thus strengthening the conference. I think the HL would need to act quickly because the good teams won't be in the conference they're in for much longer. If this were the case I don't foresee anybody leaving the Horizon any time soon.
Example: ADD Murray State, Belmont, Robert Morris, and Oakland MINUS No Schools
2.) The Horizon League get mediocre to poor teams from nearby conferences, if Oakland is the best team out of the expansion it would be categorized here. If Oakland was not the best team out of the expansion it would be categorized in the first scenario. If this were the case I could see some of the better schools in the Horizon leave for a better conference. But this would only be the top schools, Valpo & UDM probably look somewhere else.
Example: ADD Oakland, Northern Kentucky, South Dakota State, and IUPUI MINUS Valpo (MVC) and UDM (Catholic?)
3.) The Horizon League gets bad teams from the Summit League. This is the worst case scenario and would spell the end of the HL's credibility. I think if this were to happen very few current HL teams will still be in the HL.
Example: ADD IPFW, IUPUI, Western Illinois, and UMKC MINUS Valpo (MVC), UDM (Catholic), WSU (OVC), CSU (NEC)
I see some people saying one Dakota school could be added and others three. It only works with two so you have travel partners, otherwise you end up taking one long trip the Dakotas for only one game in sports like basketball, volleyball or soccer which doesn't make a lot of sense. If you have travel partners you get two games out of the trip.
I think if the Horizon went with PantherU's scenario 1 or 2 the league would be able to go head to head with the MVC any day and in a 12 team league travel wouldn't be too bad either.
I know NDSU and SDSU aren't in big markets and travel is an issue but both schools are well supported and have had plenty of athletic success. I think we add a bit more than nothing like a previous poster was implying.
Once you add a Dakota school, you make it nearly impossible to recruit good schools from the east or south. Robert Morris or Belmont aren't going to want to play conference games in South Dakota every year. Especially in non basketball sports. Expanding northwest is the wrong direction. There's a limited pool in that direction. Expanding west to UMKC will have the same result to any eastern school.
Quote from: a3uge on April 25, 2013, 03:31:29 PMOnce you add a Dakota school, you make it nearly impossible to recruit good schools from the east or south. Robert Morris or Belmont aren't going to want to play conference games in South Dakota every year. Especially in non basketball sports. Expanding northwest is the wrong direction. There's a limited pool in that direction. Expanding west to UMKC will have the same result to any eastern school.
Well if you are going to 12 schools I'm not sure why you are worried about recruiting more schools. That said I guess you would still have UMKC, UNO, WIU, Denver and USD out west to add...plus IPFW, IUPUI and WIU. It does sounds like Belmont is happy with the OVC and turned down the MVC, plus RMU and Murray State have football issues. I'm not sure if expansion to the east and south is any better than the west.
That said, as long as you maintain a strong league there are always schools that will want to join.
Quote from: fargobison on April 25, 2013, 04:25:29 PM
Well if you are going to 12 schools I'm not sure why you are worried about recruiting more schools. That said I guess you would still have UMKC, UNO, WIU, Denver and USD out west to add...plus IPFW, IUPUI and WIU. It does sounds like Belmont is happy with the OVC and turned down the MVC, plus RMU and Murray State have football issues. I'm not sure if expansion to the east and south is any better than the west.
You always have to be worried about attracting more schools because conferences seldom stay the same. Belmont did not turn down the MVC. They didn't get invited. In regards to your last statement, that just doesn't make sense. You want to add schools from areas that produce good recruits. IL, IN, MI, PA, KY, and TN are areas that produce a lot of basketball talent. If you comparatively look at the number of kids that sign D1 basketball scholarships from those states vs ND or SD it isn't even close. For example, last year something like 30 kids from IN signed D1 scholarships in basketball. I bet you can add up all of the kids that signed D1 scholarships out of SD and ND for the last decade and still not have that many.
I don't have anything against those programs, but their location does nothing for the HL.
Well NDSU and SDSU are right on the MN border...that state does produce some talent. That said I think this talk of adding a school means recruits from KY or wherever are going to start flowing in is a bit overblown. Unless you are adding a school with a lot of appeal. I don't think adding IUPUI for example to the HL is going to do much of anything, it certainly hasn't meant much for the Summit League.
As for Belmont that was just the rumor that I heard, that they didn't want change conferences again and liked the OVC. The MVC also seemed frustrated that some schools didn't want to join.
Quote from: fargobison on April 25, 2013, 07:06:42 PM
Well NDSU and SDSU are right on the MN border...that state does produce some talent. That said I think this talk of adding a school means recruits from KY or wherever are going to start flowing in is a bit overblown. Unless you are adding a school with a lot of appeal. I don't think adding IUPUI for example to the HL is going to do much of anything, it certainly hasn't meant much for the Summit League.
School tend to recruit their immediate area and the area where they play most of their games. Wright State probably spends 80% of our recruiting budget and time on kids from IL, IN, and OH. We also recruit MI and WI, but not as much. If you look at our roster for next year, 9 of our scholarship players will come from one of those states. If we are going to be playing games in a new area (and potentially start recruiting that area) I want it to be in an area that has a lot of basketball talent. ND and SD do not have much talent. MN may have more talent than SD or ND, but that doesn't help any of us. We won't be playing any games in MN if we add SDSU or NDSU to the HL so we wouldn't be getting any exposure in that area. Exposure in the local newspaper and local media helps get your name out in recruiting.
The HL has to add 1 team with baseball to keep our automatic bid to the NCAAs in that sport. The only reason the HL will expand beyond that is if we think adding 2-3 more teams will improve the conference enough to make us a consistent multi-bid league. There is no reason to go to 12 teams if we are only going to be a 1 bid conference. All that achieves is we end up splitting our NCAA tournament money 12 ways instead of 9. We want teams that will improve the conference's RPI and name recognition. We want teams that have baseball. We want teams that make geographic sense. We don't want to add teams just to add teams especially if those teams are going to kill our travel budgets. Why do you think teams keep leaving the SL? They want in a better league that has less travel.
You are making a lot of assumptions about MN and what kind of exposure NDSU and SDSU get in that state. Some of that might not be accurate but I get our location is a huge drawback and we probably don't provide enough exposure in the Twin Cities to provide a big recruiting boost.
I do think SDSU, NDSU and Oakland could help make the Horizon a two bid league...that was my point all along.
Quote from: fargobison on April 25, 2013, 09:02:12 PM
You are making a lot of assumptions about MN and what kind of exposure NDSU and SDSU get in that state. Some of that might not be accurate but I get our location is a huge drawback and we probably don't provide enough exposure in the Twin Cities to provide a big recruiting boost.
I think you are grossly overestimating the amount of talent that comes from MN and the effect that playing SDSU or NDSU could have for us in recruiting that state. Here are a few facts for you from Rivals.com. In 2012, Eight kids signed D1 scholarships from MN. Two kids signed from ND and 0 from SD. From current HL states: 55 from IL, 29 from IN, 24 from MI, 19 from WI, and 15 from OH.
In 2011, 16 from MN, 3 from ND, and 1 from SD. 54 from IL, 31 from MI, 23 from IN, 16 from OH, and 10 from WI.
Quote from: fargobison on April 25, 2013, 09:02:12 PM
I do think SDSU, NDSU and Oakland could help make the Horizon a two bid league...that was my point all along.
That is something we are going to have to disagree on. I don't see those 3 teams elevating the HL enough to be a multi-bid conference. If anything, I think adding SDSU and NDSU will be the beginning of the end of the HL. It might take a few years, but I think at least 1/3 of our conference would leave if we ended up adding 2 schools that far away.
Well I never intended on comparing MN to Michigan, Indiana or Illinois when it comes to basketball recruiting...Wisconsin is a better comparison. I'm not sure why I'm even arguing about this because I don't think there is a school that the HL could add that will have a big effect on recruiting, especially in new areas.
reposted from http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787)
why i love this board
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/78541_cFLnZd2LP76xg18.jpg)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 26, 2013, 06:57:29 AM
reposted from http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787)
why i love this board
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/78541_cFLnZd2LP76xg18.jpg)
I am not sure I saw that before, that is one great photo!
Quote from: FWalum on April 26, 2013, 08:48:30 AM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 26, 2013, 06:57:29 AM
reposted from http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787)
why i love this board
(http://www.easymemes.com/uploads/memes/78541_cFLnZd2LP76xg18.jpg)
I am not sure I saw that before, that is one great photo!
Thanks!
Quote from: Big D on April 25, 2013, 12:25:51 PMI think there is a good chance the HL can add an OVC school if we try.
Seriously, what have we been doing to date?
Is there any chance that Evansville would move over to the Horizon as was rumored last fall? If Evansville views the Horizon League footprint as a better student recruiting area, that may be reason enough. If Evansville would jump over, that could open up the MVC for Valpo, as the MVC privates would again want to add another private school, forcing the MVC publics to accept Valpo rather than UIC (although Denver might be possible too).
Did my own analysis using some of the metro area population / travel / academics issues listed above (and negatives for football, lack of baseball, and airplane travel) and came up with the following preferences for the Horizon League:
1. Evansville (assuming they have interest)
2. Oakland
3. Belmont
large gap
4. N Kentucky (although they wouldn't help in baseball until fully DI)
5. Robert Morris (again don't help in baseball)
6. SIU-E
7. Bellarmine (even though they aren't DI yet, they grade out very highly on qualities desired by the Horizon)
Anyone west of the Mississippi doesn't have a chance due to travel issues. A school with football needs to be non-scholarship, otherwise the pressure to upgrade in FCS is a high risk.
The MVC has gone from a highly regarded non-BCS conference to just another mid-major almost over night. Losing their top program was a huge hit by itself. Replacing them with the HL's 2nd worst program will drop them further. They are now a respectable 1-bid mid-major league - nothing more, nothing less. If I ever had any interest in joining the MVC, I certainly don't now. Longer travel, schools in tired towns in the middle of nowhere, and the memory of being turned down by a bunch of arrogant fools who think far more highly of themselves than they should. Screw them.
Quote from: wh on April 26, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
The MVC has gone from a highly regarded non-BCS conference to just another mid-major almost over night. Losing their top program was a huge hit by itself. Replacing them with the HL's 2nd worst program will drop them further. They are now a respectable 1-bid mid-major league - nothing more, nothing less. If I ever had any interest in joining the MVC, I certainly don't now. Longer travel, schools in tired towns in the middle of nowhere, and the memory of being turned down by a bunch of arrogant fools who think far more highly of themselves than they should. Screw them.
Wow :o It's a shame you don't have an opinion, WH.
But eloquently presented. And it's not sour grapes in my mind. They could have skimmed the cream off the top but they chose the sludge on the bottom.
One thing that hasn't been given enough play: When Valpo joins a conference, it's track record across most sports is to be/become competitive at the new level. People don't give us enough credit, facilities or no, for that VERY important quality. Look at VB, Baseball, Softball, MSO, WSO, and now Golf and Tennis. Damn, the damage we could do with a real track >:(
Quote from: NoDak on April 26, 2013, 03:51:43 PM
Is there any chance that Evansville would move over to the Horizon as was rumored last fall? If Evansville views the Horizon League footprint as a better student recruiting area, that may be reason enough. If Evansville would jump over, that could open up the MVC for Valpo, as the MVC privates would again want to add another private school, forcing the MVC publics to accept Valpo rather than UIC (although Denver might be possible too).
Did my own analysis using some of the metro area population / travel / academics issues listed above (and negatives for football, lack of baseball, and airplane travel) and came up with the following preferences for the Horizon League:
1. Evansville (assuming they have interest)
2. Oakland
3. Belmont
large gap
4. N Kentucky (although they wouldn't help in baseball until fully DI)
5. Robert Morris (again don't help in baseball)
6. SIU-E
7. Bellarmine (even though they aren't DI yet, they grade out very highly on qualities desired by the Horizon)
Anyone west of the Mississippi doesn't have a chance due to travel issues. A school with football needs to be non-scholarship, otherwise the pressure to upgrade in FCS is a high risk.
One of the main reasons Evansville would come over to the HL is to renew the relationship and competition with VU. Very similar schools that compete for the same pool of students. I don't see them coming over to the HL if they thought VU would be leaving. They are happy in the MVC but it looked like they might have been more competitive in the HL, that may no longer be the case so really no reason to leave.
So what are the chances the HL just adds Oakland and calls it good for now? It doesn't seem like the Horizon makes any big moves or really any kind of move lately.
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 26, 2013, 11:39:31 AM
Quote from: Big D on April 25, 2013, 12:25:51 PMI think there is a good chance the HL can add an OVC school if we try.
Seriously, what have we been doing to date?
We have been trying to get our school presidents all on the same page. Detroit has fought against Oakland all along even though everyone else is ok with Oakland being one of the schools. Detroit and Loyola would not consider any combination of teams that didn't include 2 of the 3 being private schools. I don't know where Detroit stands now that Loyola is gone. Valpo has fought for Evansville (even though Evansville has made it very clear they are not interested). All of the HL schools with baseball have insisted that only schools with baseball be considered. Green Bay only wants to go to 10. YSU has fought for Robert Morris. Wright State has pushed for Murray State and Belmont. etc, etc, etc,
one thing we (or at least I) am not quite clear on is whether Detroit, by itself, has the power to block Oakland without another school joining them?
With the state the Horizon League is in. I don't see how Detroit can block Oakland, the league is down to 8 teams and is flirting with disaster right now. If they don't get anybody this year, or anybody good, aka not the alphabet schools. For if they do, I can see mass desertion of the HL for years to come.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 26, 2013, 10:10:24 PMI don't see how Detroit can block Oakland
I'd say it's quite obvious if you'd put yourself in UDM's shoes for 4.2 seconds. But my question is not "why would they" but "how can they"--I'm not looking for formal cause here, just efficient cause.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 26, 2013, 09:54:00 PM
one thing we (or at least I) am not quite clear on is whether Detroit, by itself, has the power to block Oakland without another school joining them?
The HL has a bylaw that any team can veto the HL from adding another school that is located within 25 miles of their campus. The only way that team could be added is if the rest of the conference unanimously votes to add that team. Oakland is 22 miles away from Detroit so Detroit can veto them. The remaining 7 HL teams can still vote together to add them.
I think the Horizon is just an average league at this point. Nothing special, and the programs that "may be" considering us are not going to propel us to the upper echelon of mid-majors. We're certainly not going to get there by adding schools such as Oakland (which, although a large and good school, has almost no name recognition outside of the upper-Midwest). Sorry, but that's just reality. We aren't ready to ascend to the upper echelon of mid-major programs, either, although Valpo at least has name recognition.
Assumin that Loyola is still an official member of the HL, I wonder if they still have voting rights. What a kick in the teeth that would be if a program leaving the league could affect our ability to add a school that everyone but 1 member school wants.
Quote from: wh on April 27, 2013, 01:40:04 PM
Assumin that Loyola is still an official member of the HL, I wonder if they still have voting rights. What a kick in the teeth that would be if a program leaving the league could affect our ability to add a school that everyone but 1 member school wants.
Loyola is no longer a voting member of the HL.
I don't think we'll have to wait much longer to find out who we're adding. From the WSU board:
Poster 1: All HL presidents are scheduled to meet with LeCrone on the 29th. I anticipate we will know who is in our conference sometime in June.
Poster 2: The ADs will also be at the meetings to get scheduling going. It's my opinion (and that's all it is) that the Presidents and LeCrone already know who they've narrowed it down to. It's just a matter of dotting the "I's" and crossing the "T's". They want to make the best possible, long lasting decision.
The presidents will trust their AD's with info "not to be shared with anyone." Some of the AD's are like little girls when it comes to keeping secrets. They will tell underlings and "trusted friends of the program." We will know something by the end of the day.
PantherU is now reporting "multiple anonymous sources" confirming Oakland will be added to the Horizon League with an announcement soon. (He is also reporting Belmont as definitely not being added.)
After all the false alarms, everyone (including those on the Oakland board) is taking a wait-and-see attitude, as they should. Still, I hope this is true. I like the Oakland coach, and there has been a good spirited rivalry between Oakland and Valpo over the years.
Nevertheless, I hope there will be more to announce. If the HL were to add only Oakland, that would be a real letdown, especially since they could have easily been added a year ago when Butler left. After all the delays, I would expect a minimum of two teams to be added to create a 10-team conference. Though there are other stronger candidates (Murray State, Robert Morris, etc.), I would at the very least expect Northern Kentucky as a tenth team.
Still, with May almost upon us, I am looking forward to an official announcement, especially since scheduling (including out of conference commitments) and many other details are being held up for all the teams while the wait goes on.
Belmont is going to hold out for the MVC, as they have received interest from the conference, showing that they can hold out for a few years.
FWIW, talked to a former Oakland player/grad assistant last night and he said that UDM is still trying very hard to block Oakland from HL entry. I along with most on here think that this move against Oakland by UDM is futile at this point and hope for another decent team to also be added. Whom that might be would be a complete mystery to me as I have not heard any positive chatter on anyone else from any source.
So let me see if I have this straight.
The Horizon is holding out for Belmont.
Belmont is holding out for the MVC
The MVC is holding out for SLU and Dayton
SLU and Dayton are holdin out for the Big East
The Big East may or may not go to 12 teams
Quote from: VU75 on April 28, 2013, 07:37:53 PM
So let me see if I have this straight.
The Horizon is holding out for Belmont.
Belmont is holding out for the MVC
The MVC is holding out for SLU and Dayton
SLU and Dayton are holdin out for the Big East
The Big East may or may not go to 12 teams
I'm so tired of this silly game of musical chairs - who's waiting for whom, Sally likes Timmy, Timmy likes Madison. Hows this?
Screw Belmont
Screw the MVC
Screw SLU and Dayton
Screw the Big East
By the way, this group of schools calling themselves the Big East is akin to us calling ourselves the Big Ten. Anyone who ever mattered from a basketball standpoint is gone.
Quote from: VU75 on April 28, 2013, 07:37:53 PMThe Big East may or may not go to 12 teams
Per the Seton Hall AD the new Big East will be going to 12 teams.Two more teams will be added to the Big East, we are certain of that, but right now those two teams haven't been decided - but it will be a 12 team conference.
http://www.southorangejuice.com/2013/4/25/4266172/a-conversation-with-seton-hall-athletic-director-pat-lyons-q-a (http://www.southorangejuice.com/2013/4/25/4266172/a-conversation-with-seton-hall-athletic-director-pat-lyons-q-a)
Belmont attendance (Year/Attendance/Finish):
2012 2012 1st
2011 1802 1st
2010 1486 2nd
2009 1857 2nd
2008 1656 1st
2007 1351 1st
2006 1583 1st
2005 1624 7th
2004 1635 3rd
-Would this be the worst attendance in the HL?
-Obviously, no one in Nashville, TN cares about Belmont despite their success
-What happens if their basketball success declines? Do they go back to their 2001 and 2002 season game attendance averages of 600-800?
Somebody on another HL board said they want to be the next Butler and might just use the HL as a stepping stone. Are you serious? Does anyone ever bother to check the facts about these "glamour" teams from nothing conferences? They would add nothing to the HL except pain-in-the-butt travel off the end of our map. I can't even find a fans message board for them.
Quote from: wh on April 28, 2013, 08:01:57 PMBy the way, this group of schools calling themselves the Big East is akin to us calling ourselves the Big Ten. Anyone who ever mattered from a basketball standpoint is gone.
...um, i'm thinking maybe you are thinking the wrong group kept the name in the divorce.
EDIT: yes, now i'm sure you are.
Big East (2013-14ff)Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Xavier
American Athletic Conference (2013-14ff)Cincinnati (2013–present)
Connecticut (2013–present)
Houston (2013–present)
Memphis (2013–present)
SMU (2013–present)
South Florida (2013–present)
Temple (2013–present)
UCF (2013–present)
East Carolina (2014–future)
Tulane (2014–future)
Tulsa (2014–future)
Navy (2015-future)
to paraphrase my new bff a3uge, that's like deciding between where to raise your children--East St. Louis or Naples ;)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 29, 2013, 06:37:13 AM
Quote from: wh on April 28, 2013, 08:01:57 PMBy the way, this group of schools calling themselves the Big East is akin to us calling ourselves the Big Ten. Anyone who ever mattered from a basketball standpoint is gone.
...um, i'm thinking maybe you are thinking the wrong group kept the name in the divorce.
EDIT: yes, now i'm sure you are.
Big East (2013-14ff)
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Xavier
But, maybe in comparison to the ORIGINAL Big East with these departed programs (plus the teams in bold above):
Syracuse --- to ACC
UConn -- to AAC
BC -- to ACC
Pitt -- to ACC
Still, no. UConn and Syracuse, sure.
But Pitt, BC? If they count as "basketball tradition" then hell, DePaul and Xavier have it in spades.
Maybe I should have written in braille. ;) When I said, "Anyone who ever mattered from a basketball standpoint is gone," I was referring to the programs that made the Big East one of the top 2 basketball conferences in the country over the past several years - Syracuse, UConn, Louisville, W. Virginia, Notre Dame, and Cincinnati.
Next year's "Big East" more closely resembles in stature this year's A-10 than the powerful Big East of the past. In this case - a rose by the same name is still not a rose.
I agreed with you until you threw WVU, ND, and Cincy in there. If that's the bar, then 80% of the NBE has met it.
From @PantherU on Twitter yesterday:
"Oakland is great. They're an instant upgrade. Horizon finished 12th in RPI in 2012-13, could be 10th or 11th in 2013-14."
That's huge for the Horizon ... all top-10 RPI conferences had multiple NCAA bids, and that is really the goal. To get there, the Horizon will need to climb over C-USA and either the WCC or MVC, all of which seem possible/probable. Keep in mind that there's an additional conference next year, although I'm not sure how the New Big East or American Athletic Conference will stack up against the new and improved Horizon.
If I see "@pantherU" and "anonymous sources" in the same sentence one more time, I'm going to vomit.
According to Panther U, Belmont, Evansville, and Loyola are in the Horizon, and UIC is in the MVC. Who cares what his take is?