In the words of Hawk Harrelson, he gone!
http://www.valpoathletics.com/football/news/2013-14/13130/carlson-relieved-of-duties-as-head-coach-of-valparaiso-football-program/ (http://www.valpoathletics.com/football/news/2013-14/13130/carlson-relieved-of-duties-as-head-coach-of-valparaiso-football-program/)
Bout damn time!
I think we need a young, hungry coach who has been an assistant for a similar program (I-AA non scholarship). If Valpo does this hire right, the next coach will be here 5 years, tops. Not because he sucks, but because he gets taken by a better program because he's so good. Valpo needs to be a stepping stone--not the peak of a career like it was for Carlson.
If I'm in the athletic department, I'm calling all the OCs and DCs at Dayton, Drake, USD, Butler, Jacksonville, all of the IVs etc... Let's not hit up an NAIA program (or whatever Ohio Dominican school) like we did last time around.
Had to happen. Way to go ML. The Wittenberg coach should be given a look. Witt. just defeated Wabash and is now a top 10 D3 team. Why not? :cheers:
I definitely don't want to celebrate Carlson being let go, as no one wants to see someone lose their job. However, it was time to make the change, and I very much wish him luck wherever he goes next. I just think that his coaching style is better suited to the NAIA ranks, as there really wasn't anything fantastic about the play calling. Once something shows it won't work a few times in a game, or throughout the season, you need to be able to come up with different plays or schemes. This may have happened some, but it really wasn't evident in the plays called. Our defense has been a complete embarrassment with so many 20+ yard plays given up, that even if the offense was firing on all cylinders, we would still have an uphill battle.
Hopefully we get some solid applicants for what is currently one of the worst NCAA D-1 football jobs out there. You can win in football at Valpo, we just need a guy like VUOR63 talks about, that is wanting to use our job to get somewhere better. If we can average 5 years per HC for the rest of time, and win consistently, I don't care about the tenure. Our other sports can be destination jobs for coaches since they offer scholarships and have found success.
I agree with tx's comments. This job for Carlson was a square peg in a round hole. MLB made the right decision and this will be good for all parties.
Bring in Kiffin! Young, ready to prove, and won't be around for long.
The good or bad of this situation will be determined if one of the football player/students decides to stay at Valpo, complete his education at Valpo, and earn a salary which allows him to invest (gives back) in the football program to make it even better for the next generation of Valpo football players/students.
I'm surprised that the Valpo administration, usually conservative and cautious, decided to terminate Carlson so quickly. I think a shake-up like this might be just what the program needs. :thumbsup:
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on November 10, 2013, 08:53:06 PM
I'm surprised that the Valpo administration, usually conservative and cautious, decided to terminate Carlson so quickly. I think a shake-up like this might be just what the program needs. :thumbsup:
Was it truly, really that quick? It most likely should have been last year but eating salary doesn't taste so good.
For the benefit of the players/students and the parents and coaches I'm glad it was finally done. Let's regroup this week and get a win over Dayton. I think it would be worth the trip to Brown Field. I'm currently working my schedule to free myself up for Saturday and drive up to Valpo so I can get the bad taste of the Butler game out of my mouth. I didn't stay the whole game.
Quote from: bbtds on November 10, 2013, 09:26:27 PMQuote from: okinawatyphoon on November 10, 2013, 08:53:06 PMI'm surprised that the Valpo administration, usually conservative and cautious, decided to terminate Carlson so quickly. I think a shake-up like this might be just what the program needs. :thumbsup:
Was it truly, really that quick? It most likely should have been last year but eating salary doesn't taste so good. For the benefit of the players/students and the parents and coaches I'm glad it was finally done. Let's regroup this week and get a win over Dayton. I think it would be worth the trip to Brown Field. I'm currently working my schedule to free myself up for Saturday and drive up to Valpo so I can get the bad taste of the Butler game out of my mouth. I didn't stay the whole game. [/quoteit was not that quick, but Valpo historically is very conservative about situations like this.
But it is time to get this fixed right.
As for salary eating, my guess is that he had a five year deal so we probably will eat some salary. Obviously the embarrassment of last Saturday was the final nail. No doubt ML heard from alumni other than what has been posted on this board. Just thin about it--we did better against North Dakota is the first game of the year than we did against the bulldogs.
As for a new coach, there are several successful coaches at Lutheran institutions (as setshot mentioned, Wittenberg might be one--(they did much better against Butler than we did) who would consider Valpo a step up (D1), who have great records at the D3 level--essentially what we play. The key is age. Get a young guy with fire in his belly who can recruit and win!!
My hope is that this firing will keep the majority of players here to at least wait and see whose next. The termination now will just add time for the committee to get it right. ML told me after the Carlson hiring that they had received MANY qualified candidates.
In the meantime let's keep Dale and his family in our prayers.
Quote from: vu72 on November 10, 2013, 10:19:04 PMAs for a new coach, there are several successful coaches at Lutheran institutions (as setshot mentioned, Wittenberg might be one
Maybe Valpo should get a catholic school coach. You know, CYA with the CYO! No Hope like the Pope! A gaelic cockney like Rockne! Rebirth of Keogan at the Indiana Luther-an! ::)
Quote from: VUOR63 on November 10, 2013, 05:26:12 PMI think we need a young, hungry coach who has been an assistant for a similar program (I-AA non scholarship). If Valpo does this hire right, the next coach will be here 5 years, tops. Not because he sucks, but because he gets taken by a better program because he's so good. Valpo needs to be a stepping stone--not the peak of a career like it was for Carlson. If I'm in the athletic department, I'm calling all the OCs and DCs at Dayton, Drake, USD, Butler, Jacksonville, all of the IVs etc... Let's not hit up an NAIA program (or whatever Ohio Dominican school) like we did last time around.
MLB did the right thing, it was time to go in a different direction. I wish Coach Carlson nothing but the best for him and his family in the future. Drake and Butler have found sucess both taking coaches from Div. 3. I don't think I would gamble on someone that has not been a head coach before. I hope the next coach is younger, charismatic and exudes enthusiasm in everything he does. The next coach needs to recruit the Chicagoland area hard and stop Butler and Drake from stealing great football players right out of our back yard. Butler had 11 of 22 starters all from the suburbs of Chicago, with 40% of their roster from Illinois. Drake is the same.
A concern of mine is that the selection committee will consist of the same people that hired Carlson. What then?
I checked out the Wittenberg athletic site to read up on HC Joe Fincham for kicks. He seems like an ideal candidate, but I sincerely doubt he's looking to move.
Including his playing days at OU, he has been in Ohio as a player/coach for nearly 30 years and is in his 18th season as Wittenberg's HC (23rd overall). With 9 league titles and 9 DIII playoff appearances, he seems to be to the point where his job will be safe for the remainder of his coaching career. Why leave that stability to come to arguably the worst DI program in the country and risk getting shown the door in a few years? I'm sure other programs with greater historical success have called only to be turned down.
I like the idea of going for a coach who is young and ambitious. As good of a coach as he is, Fincham's 18-year stay at Wittenberg seems to indicate stability is his primary concern, not moving up the coaching ladder.
Quote from: setshot on November 11, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
A concern of mine is that the selection committee will consist of the same people that hired Carlson. What then?
A fair concern. I think the difference is that they now perhaps better understand the problem. When Carlson was hired it was thought that this was a turnaround or restart of a troubled program. Carlson had started, successfully, two programs from scratch. I suspect this time they might be looking for a different product--a history of winning, who knows...
Is it safe to call him the best 3-40 FB coach in history?
Quote from: setshot on November 11, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
A concern of mine is that the selection committee will consist of the same people that hired Carlson. What then?
Same concern. If the selection committee and ML use the same criteria, of which there were MANY qualified candidates and Carlson was the best, are we going down the same road?
A firing six weeks ago would have allowed the search committee to hire someone from outside Valpo to assess the current football situation, look at other successful programs (especially PFL), and assess what is needed (besides a new coaching staff) for Valpo to become successful. Have Gerry DiNardo come take a look - what else is he doing Sun thru Fri?
The new coach will need to be hungry, have great organizational skills, a great evaluator of football talent - both on the field and coaches, and be able to adapt with the talent on hand. We need to reach out to successful coaches who have moved up in the ranks such as Harbaugh and Lembo, not only to find out what is needed for the overall program to be successful, but to get a list of names they feel would be qualified and ready to take on such a challenge as Valpo.
Would Teddy return to NW IN from Walsh?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Quote from: covufan on November 11, 2013, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: setshot on November 11, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
A concern of mine is that the selection committee will consist of the same people that hired Carlson. What then?
Same concern. If the selection committee and ML use the same criteria, of which there were MANY qualified candidates and Carlson was the best, are we going down the same road?
A firing six weeks ago would have allowed the search committee to hire someone from outside Valpo to assess the current football situation, look at other successful programs (especially PFL), and assess what is needed (besides a new coaching staff) for Valpo to become successful. Have Gerry DiNardo come take a look - what else is he doing Sun thru Fri?
The new coach will need to be hungry, have great organizational skills, a great evaluator of football talent - both on the field and coaches, and be able to adapt with the talent on hand. We need to reach out to successful coaches who have moved up in the ranks such as Harbaugh and Lembo, not only to find out what is needed for the overall program to be successful, but to get a list of names they feel would be qualified and ready to take on such a challenge as Valpo.
Would Teddy return to NW IN from Walsh?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Perhaps covufan is on to something. Harbaugh was new to coaching although he had helped his dad for a few years. The similarity might be the pro-experience. Why not find a young former NFL guy who could come in? Think about how many kids have said that getting to play for Byrce Drew, as a former NBA player, was a deciding factor? I'm thinking Norm Amundsen, not as the new coach! Norm came in and replaced Em Bauer in 1968. He was a former Green Bay Packer. His record wasn't record breaking but any of us would take it today!
He was 47-47-3 overall in 10 years with a record of 4-6 against Butler and 5-5 against St. Joes. I'll take it!!
Quote from: covufan on November 11, 2013, 11:48:13 AM
The new coach will need to be hungry, have great organizational skills, a great evaluator of football talent - both on the field and coaches, and be able to adapt with the talent on hand. We need to reach out to successful coaches who have moved up in the ranks such as Harbaugh and Lembo, not only to find out what is needed for the overall program to be successful, but to get a list of names they feel would be qualified and ready to take on such a challenge as Valpo.
After Valpo's selection committee finds the candidate that fills all these requirements what are they going to pay him?
Valpo still needs the people in control to come up with the money to reward a coach with these qualities. If not, whoever has these qualities will most likely scoff at the salary and assurances of the backing of the administration. Unless the new coach gets a greater committment from the board of directors Valpo will end up with another Dale Carlson.
Quote from: vu72 on November 11, 2013, 12:43:05 PM
Quote from: covufan on November 11, 2013, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: setshot on November 11, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
A concern of mine is that the selection committee will consist of the same people that hired Carlson. What then?
Same concern. If the selection committee and ML use the same criteria, of which there were MANY qualified candidates and Carlson was the best, are we going down the same road?
A firing six weeks ago would have allowed the search committee to hire someone from outside Valpo to assess the current football situation, look at other successful programs (especially PFL), and assess what is needed (besides a new coaching staff) for Valpo to become successful. Have Gerry DiNardo come take a look - what else is he doing Sun thru Fri?
The new coach will need to be hungry, have great organizational skills, a great evaluator of football talent - both on the field and coaches, and be able to adapt with the talent on hand. We need to reach out to successful coaches who have moved up in the ranks such as Harbaugh and Lembo, not only to find out what is needed for the overall program to be successful, but to get a list of names they feel would be qualified and ready to take on such a challenge as Valpo.
Would Teddy return to NW IN from Walsh?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Perhaps covufan is on to something. Harbaugh was new to coaching although he had helped his dad for a few years. The similarity might be the pro-experience. Why not find a young former NFL guy who could come in? Think about how many kids have said that getting to play for Byrce Drew, as a former NBA player, was a deciding factor? I'm thinking Norm Amundsen, not as the new coach! Norm came in and replaced Em Bauer in 1968. He was a former Green Bay Packer. His record wasn't record breaking but any of us would take it today!
He was 47-47-3 overall in 10 years with a record of 4-6 against Butler and 5-5 against St. Joes. I'll take it!!
I didn't know that Coach Amundsen was a former NFL player! I always assumed that because of his prior Valpo coaching experience, both he and Coach Koch were given classes to teach in regards to P.E. I had Amundsen for a weightlifting class one year, and he seemed like a quality guy.
Quote from: bbtds on November 11, 2013, 12:48:39 PM
Quote from: covufan on November 11, 2013, 11:48:13 AM
The new coach will need to be hungry, have great organizational skills, a great evaluator of football talent - both on the field and coaches, and be able to adapt with the talent on hand. We need to reach out to successful coaches who have moved up in the ranks such as Harbaugh and Lembo, not only to find out what is needed for the overall program to be successful, but to get a list of names they feel would be qualified and ready to take on such a challenge as Valpo.
After Valpo's selection committee finds the candidate that fills all these requirements what are they going to pay him?
Valpo still needs the people in control to come up with the money to reward a coach with these qualities. If not, whoever has these qualities will most likely scoff at the salary and assurances of the backing of the administration. Unless the new coach gets a greater committment from the board of directors Valpo will end up with another Dale Carlson.
You may be right but what are your sources? I have no idea what our coaches are paid and whether or not they are competitive with peer institutions.
All I can rely on is what the Strategic Plan says:
Strategy 6.F: Compensate coaches/staff at or above the median level of compensation among
peer institutions.
Very astute point, setshot.I don't think it would be smart to hire a head coach from a smaller school--we've already seen that coaching a smaller school doesn't necessarily translate into success at Valpo.In the late 90s, early 00s, Valpo had some young GAs and position coaches who have been successful elsewhere. The wide receivers coach when I played was a young guy named Chip Taylor...not sure if he'd be interested in the job but if he has anywhere close to the same drive he did back then, he'd be a home run. There are also a number of former players who are coaching at different schools--you would think an alum would take some ownership over the program.
Quote from: setshot on November 11, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
A concern of mine is that the selection committee will consist of the same people that hired Carlson. What then?
The reality of Carlson's hire is that he had a strong track record of building programs at lower levels. Furthermore, it seemed (at least to someone outside) that his players did not get in trouble off the field. What got him fired was going 3-40 over four seasons, plus getting drilled by Butler on Saturday. So, it may not have been a bad decision to hire Carlson given what was known at the time, but it clearly was a bad outcome based on what we know now. We have to distinguish a reasonable process from the outcome.
The good news is that anyone who comes here knows that he has some time to get this right -- as has been said elsewhere, he has to be an up-and-comer. In the end, there are only 250 of these positions in the country, and that has to appeal to someone.
Quote from: vu72 on November 11, 2013, 12:43:05 PM
Quote from: covufan on November 11, 2013, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: setshot on November 11, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
A concern of mine is that the selection committee will consist of the same people that hired Carlson. What then?
Same concern. If the selection committee and ML use the same criteria, of which there were MANY qualified candidates and Carlson was the best, are we going down the same road?
A firing six weeks ago would have allowed the search committee to hire someone from outside Valpo to assess the current football situation, look at other successful programs (especially PFL), and assess what is needed (besides a new coaching staff) for Valpo to become successful. Have Gerry DiNardo come take a look - what else is he doing Sun thru Fri?
The new coach will need to be hungry, have great organizational skills, a great evaluator of football talent - both on the field and coaches, and be able to adapt with the talent on hand. We need to reach out to successful coaches who have moved up in the ranks such as Harbaugh and Lembo, not only to find out what is needed for the overall program to be successful, but to get a list of names they feel would be qualified and ready to take on such a challenge as Valpo.
Would Teddy return to NW IN from Walsh?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Perhaps covufan is on to something. Harbaugh was new to coaching although he had helped his dad for a few years. The similarity might be the pro-experience. Why not find a young former NFL guy who could come in? Think about how many kids have said that getting to play for Byrce Drew, as a former NBA player, was a deciding factor? I'm thinking Norm Amundsen, not as the new coach! Norm came in and replaced Em Bauer in 1968. He was a former Green Bay Packer. His record wasn't record breaking but any of us would take it today!
He was 47-47-3 overall in 10 years with a record of 4-6 against Butler and 5-5 against St. Joes. I'll take it!!
Mike Minter at Campbell doesn't seem to be setting the world on fire as maybe expected.
Quote from: bbtds on November 11, 2013, 12:48:39 PMAfter Valpo's selection committee finds the candidate that fills all these requirements what are they going to pay him? Valpo still needs the people in control to come up with the money to reward a coach with these qualities. If not, whoever has these qualities will most likely scoff at the salary and assurances of the backing of the administration. Unless the new coach gets a greater commitment from the board of directors Valpo will end up with another Dale Carlson.
Have to agree with bbtds on this. Without a real commitment in terms of compensation AND football facility improvements, I'm afraid the next coach could struggle as have the last several. Under ML the dollars going to football must have increased, just looking at the locations that have been recruited around the country. But our facility is woefully lacking when compared to most of our PFL competition. Hopefully that will change as the athletic dept. strategic plan is implemented. No change by itself will lead to wins, but better facilities can help to create a culture where football is seen to be important by potential recruits and their families, and that can also benefit the program in terms of changing the atmosphere, culture and expectations for football for the better. We need a coach who has a solid track record of success in his field, be it as a coordinator or a current or even former head coach. The next coach hopefully also can figure out how to adapt his game plans to the personnel he has available. He needs to recruit the heck out of the midwest. If that strategy works for Drake, Butler, etc., no reason it won't work for Valpo. Hopefully the next coach also will bring with him a sense of urgency to win. It would be nice to see some immediate success in terms of W's, to give players and fans something to look forward to.
Quote from: vu72 on November 11, 2013, 01:09:48 PM
Quote from: bbtds on November 11, 2013, 12:48:39 PM
Quote from: covufan on November 11, 2013, 11:48:13 AM
The new coach will need to be hungry, have great organizational skills, a great evaluator of football talent - both on the field and coaches, and be able to adapt with the talent on hand. We need to reach out to successful coaches who have moved up in the ranks such as Harbaugh and Lembo, not only to find out what is needed for the overall program to be successful, but to get a list of names they feel would be qualified and ready to take on such a challenge as Valpo.
After Valpo's selection committee finds the candidate that fills all these requirements what are they going to pay him?
Valpo still needs the people in control to come up with the money to reward a coach with these qualities. If not, whoever has these qualities will most likely scoff at the salary and assurances of the backing of the administration. Unless the new coach gets a greater committment from the board of directors Valpo will end up with another Dale Carlson.
You may be right but what are your sources? I have no idea what our coaches are paid and whether or not they are competitive with peer institutions.
All I can rely on is what the Strategic Plan says:
Strategy 6.F: Compensate coaches/staff at or above the median level of compensation among
peer institutions.
No sources. I can't fathom that Valpo was paying Carlson what a Harbaugh should have been paid (if he was paid well at USD, he might have been depending on his savings from his NFL salary, something like what we feel Powell and Bryce are doing) or a name football coach with a solid reputation should be paid. Valpo is asking this next head coach to resurrect maybe the greatest reclamation project in the history of Div.I football. If Valpo doesn't come up with the salary maybe the guy will have his own resources from a previous pro career and a love for Valpo. If you want football to succeed give the student/players, parents, alumni, available coaches a sign that a huge commitment is going to be made. We need the same commitment to the football program that was made to the men's basketball program when Bryce was kept around by bumping his salary whether it's a Div. I non-scholarship football program, a Div. I scholarship football program or a Big Six football program. Letting Carlson go in the middle of a season was a sign. A better sign would be paying the next head coach what he deserves to resurrect one of the biggest failures in Div. I football. Keep the signs of commitment to football coming.
MARK MANGINO.
he made KANSAS football a relevant national power again...remember?
after THE INCIDENT he's coaching TEs at YSU.
so.
AVAILABLE
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on November 11, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
MARK MANGINO.
he made KANSAS football a relevant national power again...remember?
after THE INCIDENT he's coaching TEs at YSU.
so.
AVAILABLE
While I would be in favor of this hire, I actually don't think he'd leave for Valpo. Would he leave? Absolutely. For Valpo, um...unlikely.
And the Joel Osteen, Dale Carlson era is over! I wish him the best of luck in his next career as a motivational speaker.
Mostly I am happy for the kids, who deserved MUCH better than this. I didn't like how he threw the senior class under the bus by not allowing them to be competitive all in the name of the "system". I could say many things about this staff, but in the end the best thing to do is put this behind us and move on.
Quote from: milanmiracle on November 11, 2013, 04:31:14 PMFor Valpo, um...unlikely.
Possibly (probably) true, but then again, would you ever have thought he'd have been interested in COACHING TIGHT ENDS in the fcs?
Or maybe Alex #$%ing English.
Let's face it...we are damaged goods, albeit with a successful past. Let's find someone who's the same.
DOUBLE REDEMPTION.
Lowered Expectations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3flv5nWZgII#)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on November 11, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
MARK MANGINO.
Below is a link to a recent article on a (somewhat slimmer) Mark Mangino. A few things about him: 1)he makes more than you've been paying the head coach...that's just something in which I'm very confident. 2)he really likes Youngstown, Ohio. 3)Although he's toned down some of his aggressive antics, he's way more "in your face" than any coach you've likely ever had.
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/11/09/4609966/three-years-after-ku-mark-mangino.html (http://www.kansascity.com/2013/11/09/4609966/three-years-after-ku-mark-mangino.html)
There's also a Valpo thread on the PFL board:
http://www.pflfan.proboards.com/thread/2162/dale-carlson (http://www.pflfan.proboards.com/thread/2162/dale-carlson)
Good luck in your search.
Gerry Faust will take the job right now. Holtz can be his part time assistant.
Or "jerry fouts" as I saw him called earlier today.
no, i don't expect Mangino would be that interested, nor English, nor Carl Pelini, or Larry Eustachy, or Earle Bruce. If you've been Lurking long you'll know I'm rarely serious.
Well, since our previous head coach went to the HS ranks, why not get one FROM the HS ranks? Kirk Kennedy doesn't really have a college offense, per se, but then again, we don't really at the moment either. And you can make it work easily.
Maybe we could lure Mark Hoffman outta retirement.
I knew you weren't terribly serious. But it's a good idea. If San Diego can get Harbaugh...
Quote from: Lurking Dog on November 11, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on November 11, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
MARK MANGINO.
Below is a link to a recent article on a (somewhat slimmer) Mark Mangino. A few things about him: 1)he makes more than you've been paying the head coach...that's just something in which I'm very confident. 2)he really likes Youngstown, Ohio. 3)Although he's toned down some of his aggressive antics, he's way more "in your face" than any coach you've likely ever had.
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/11/09/4609966/three-years-after-ku-mark-mangino.html (http://www.kansascity.com/2013/11/09/4609966/three-years-after-ku-mark-mangino.html)
There's also a Valpo thread on the PFL board:
http://www.pflfan.proboards.com/thread/2162/dale-carlson (http://www.pflfan.proboards.com/thread/2162/dale-carlson)
Good luck in your search.
LurkingDog, you made a GREAT point. Check Ivy or Patriot OCs and DCs. They recruit top level students to play in a non-scholarship setting. Yes, I know the Patriot is transitioning to scholarship, but the the mindset an techiques are there.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on November 11, 2013, 05:21:57 PM
Or maybe Alex #$%ing English.
Certainly Alex English was a fantasic player in the NBA for years but I am not sure how he would translate on the football field!!
Good "outside the box" thinking, however!!
RON English good catch. worse because I got it right before.
i must have been thinking of this from my youth:
(http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mOs7MGdCQMTKVC2FuzB1SVA.jpg)
I found this to be the most compelling research/journalism writing by Paul Oren yet, on the situation, and hadn't seen it posted here yet.
http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/reaction-and-impact-to-dale-carlson-s-firing/article_d0ec9d7a-4aa5-11e3-97f5-0019bb2963f4.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/reaction-and-impact-to-dale-carlson-s-firing/article_d0ec9d7a-4aa5-11e3-97f5-0019bb2963f4.html)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on November 12, 2013, 12:37:06 PM
I found this to be the most compelling research/journalism writing by Paul Oren yet, on the situation, and hadn't seen it posted here yet.
http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/reaction-and-impact-to-dale-carlson-s-firing/article_d0ec9d7a-4aa5-11e3-97f5-0019bb2963f4.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/reaction-and-impact-to-dale-carlson-s-firing/article_d0ec9d7a-4aa5-11e3-97f5-0019bb2963f4.html)
Very good story Paul! Great investigative work in our modern times.
No mention of this board!!?? I'm confused about that. Are we that irrelevant?
Quote from: bbtds on November 12, 2013, 04:43:48 PMQuote from: LaPorteAveApostle on November 12, 2013, 12:37:06 PMI found this to be the most compelling research/journalism writing by Paul Oren yet, on the situation, and hadn't seen it posted here yet. http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/reaction-and-impact-to-dale-carlson-s-firing/article_d0ec9d7a-4aa5-11e3-97f5-0019bb2963f4.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/reaction-and-impact-to-dale-carlson-s-firing/article_d0ec9d7a-4aa5-11e3-97f5-0019bb2963f4.html)
Very good story Paul! Great investigative work in our modern times. No mention of this board!!?? I'm confused about that. Are we that irrelevant?
With absolutely no intention of dissing this outstanding message board, do you believe we had inflluence on MLB's decision to relieve Carlson of his duties? Also, are there other Valpo message boards (I doubt better)?
I was looking at the "relieved of duties" headline, and then I was thinking about the movie "Wreck It Ralph"...
Vanellope von Schweetz: I bet you really gonna watch where you step in a game called Hero's duty[Vanellope Laughs] What's you win a medal for, wiping? I hope you washed your hands after you handled that medal.
Wreck-It Ralph: Listen, I'm gonna!
Vanellope von Schweetz: Hang on, hang on, why did the hero flushed the toilet?... say why.
Wreck-It Ralph: why.
Vanellope von Schweetz: Because it was his duty!
Wreck-It Ralph: How dare you insult Hero's Duty you little gar snipe! I earned that medal! you better give it back to me two tweet sister!
Look back to the early 90's. program had won two games in four years. It then won 3 then 5 then 7 games in the first season in the Pioneer Football League. They succeeded in recruiting Chicago. Browser, Ozzie Lee Young, Shayne Snider, John Palyok, Ronnie Sazone to name just a few. Add in the Players recruited from Texas, Georgia, Wisconsin and California. The National Lutheran University because of the geographical reach of the Pioneer Football League can rise quickly. Must have an excellent staff and the recruiting budget to make it happen.
Must Alums reinvested in the program. Had Homecoming West in '94 at San Diego game. Have similar events at various game locations.
Facilities. Formulate a plan. Create drawings. Can sell on what is coming
Hutton hits the nail on the head:
http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/23803110-556/hutton-valparaiso-must-find-right-coach-this-time.html (http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/23803110-556/hutton-valparaiso-must-find-right-coach-this-time.html)
This article by Mike Hutton in the Gary PostTrib pretty much says it all and illustrates our discussion in the past 2 years...
http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/23803110-556/hutton-valparaiso-must-find-right-coach-this-time.html (http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/23803110-556/hutton-valparaiso-must-find-right-coach-this-time.html)
72, congrats for being ahead of me by one minute on this!!!
Getting a new coach will not solve all problems here...Carlson contributed to the failure of the program but there was more to this.
A typical Hutton story....very little homework about a subject he doesn't know. Thus, leading to some inaccuracies. Starting with the statement that the media wasn't informed. The media received a press release on the Carlson firing. Hutton, I assume did not receive the release because he hasn't ever covered a Valpo football game. I think Mark Laberbera's record of hiring coaches speaks for itself. Bryce Drew and Dale Carlson are not the only coaches hired over the past decade. Was Carlson a mis-step, sure. However, his resume showed he had been the NAIA national coach of the year. Did Hutton criticize the hire when it happened? I don't recall that article. Pretty easy to take a shot now. What's wrong with the football building and offices?? This is not a BIG10 school. Has Mike ever seen the football building? I have faith that Mark will find the right guy, and don't have faith in Hutton doing any homework for the next story he writes.
I liked the Hutton article. I hope he continues to stir the pot adding different ingredients as needed. Thanks Mike :thumbsup:
"We must not sacrifice our courage, our boldness, to settle for what is safe or what we can manage reasonably--that is, quite simply, to surrender to the 'tyranny of the possible.' "
--President Mark A. Heckler
In this case it's obvious Valpo is not even managing reasonably but are we also only looking for what can be managed reasonably?
Hutton may not know all the facts and may be throwing out his musings but is he at least shaking things up enough so that Valpo doesn't stay mired in it's current condition? Are some of us part of keeping the current condition going and does too much change scare us?
Quote from: setshot on November 17, 2013, 10:15:46 AM
I liked the Hutton article. I hope he continues to stir the pot adding different ingredients as needed. Thanks Mike :thumbsup:
I finally got the article to come up and I read it careful and i agree with you, Setshot. Someone from outside needs to stir the pot a bit. I kind of disagree that there was no research. His angle was more from the disgruntled alumni perspective. I do question his indictment of ML (BB handed to him by the Drews?), but his point (in my words) is that of all the high profile sports at Valpo, FB (and maybe WBB at this point IMO) has been shown the least respect by the university administration. But yet, despite it's terrible record over the past 8+ or so years, the sport (and the university) still gets significant visibility (ESPN crawler every Saturday) and still feeds emotions -- if people were not so passionate/disgusted about the situation, if people did not care, there wouldn't even be this discussion.
I have to agree with Chef. This guy seems like a casual viewer trying to make an article come together by calling a few ex-players to get a sentence or two from them to add to his piece. Seriously? There are programs out there with worse facilities that win. Simply building something fancy won't change a whole lot in regards to the talent we are recruiting/getting. A solid D-1 NON-SCHOLARSHIP player is a hard search, yes, because you are often picking at players left behind by scholarship programs (NCAA and sometimes NAIA). What we need is someone that is good at identifying and selling talent on Valpo as their school of choice. Don't give me this BS that just building a facility and better offices will show the commitment necessary for the football players to feel like winning.
Baseball is a fantastic example. We had/have one of the worst facilities in D-1 as well, and with very similar talent/teams to what we have been winning with recently, were often a middle of the pack Mid-Con team. This is with SCHOLARSHIP players that often have many more choices of places to play. Coach Woodson and Schmack changed the culture to a winning one through their philosophies and playing to our strengths. It all has to do with the mentality of the team, and playing to your strengths. Football just needs a coaching staff that can change the feel of the program, it has much less to do with needing that glitzy facility...
Edit: I forgot to mention that MLB has done a fantastic job in hiring at VU. His only miss was on Carlson, and I believe he has hired 4-5 other coaches that have experienced success outside of Drew.
Valpotex: Thought you might be interested in the fact that Tracey Woodson has signed an all-state player from Hilton Head to play at Richmond. The kid is not only a good baseball player he is an honor student in the classroom too. Watch out for Richmond.
Yes, Richmond will be a solid program with him at the helm. Even if he does not sign all-state talent, the guy knows how to develop players and cater the games to his team's strengths. Our recent baseball teams didn't/don't have a bunch of superstars on them. These kids came in with the same amount of accolades of a lot of people that were on my teams that had losing records. However, Woodson was able to develop their talents further, make key game decisions, get them to buy into his philosophies, and keep confidence high. We need the same thing for football...
First of all, I am glad Mike Hutton wrote an in depth article on the football program and expressing his views and questioning the university's committment to football. At least someone in the media cares about what's going on. If the administration (not particularly MLB) really cares about football success rather than using it as a cash cow to bring in male students, I have to agree that Carlson should have been fired after last season, or without a doubt, after the William Jewell game. I also think the university needs a deep reality check on what they want to do with football, and got this conclusion from this article.
Second, I appreciate the fact check chef brought up - there was not enough research and depth in Hutton's article. There was a press release, and Hutton cannot defined ex-player support after a sample of two. Bringing up facilities is somewhat In chef's defense, the article was all over the place.
These viewpoints are synonomous with trying to understand a political issue after watching Fox News and then MSNBC.
At the end, my view is that Valpo (administration, athletics, you name it) is way too conservative about taking actions and tend to ignore and shy away from situations, with the approach that time heels wounds and medication is not required. They are a university, they need to get out of their comfort zone and take risks now and then.
Quote from: bbtds on November 17, 2013, 10:53:58 AM
"We must not sacrifice our courage, our boldness, to settle for what is safe or what we can manage reasonably--that is, quite simply, to surrender to the 'tyranny of the possible.' "
--President Mark A. Heckler
In this case it's obvious Valpo is not even managing reasonably but are we also only looking for what can be managed reasonably?
Hutton may not know all the facts and may be throwing out his musings but is he at least shaking things up enough so that Valpo doesn't stay mired in it's current condition? Are some of us part of keeping the current condition going and does too much change scare us?
Ergo bbtds' post. Agree there too.
Valparaiso is a Christian university, and for the university to be truly teaching faith values, they need to "practice what they preach"
Bill Hybels at the Willow Creek Leadership Summit last summer opened it up with a discussion on courage:
"Joshua 1:9, which says, "Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go."
Quote from: valpotx on November 17, 2013, 12:24:27 PMI have to agree with Chef. This guy seems like a casual viewer trying to make an article come together by calling a few ex-players to get a sentence or two from them to add to his piece. Seriously? There are programs out there with worse facilities that win. Simply building something fancy won't change a whole lot in regards to the talent we are recruiting/getting. A solid D-1 NON-SCHOLARSHIP player is a hard search, yes, because you are often picking at players left behind by scholarship programs (NCAA and sometimes NAIA). What we need is someone that is good at identifying and selling talent on Valpo as their school of choice. Don't give me this BS that just building a facility and better offices will show the commitment necessary for the football players to feel like winning. Baseball is a fantastic example. We had/have one of the worst facilities in D-1 as well, and with very similar talent/teams to what we have been winning with recently, were often a middle of the pack Mid-Con team. This is with SCHOLARSHIP players that often have many more choices of places to play. Coach Woodson and Schmack changed the culture to a winning one through their philosophies and playing to our strengths. It all has to do with the mentality of the team, and playing to your strengths. Football just needs a coaching staff that can change the feel of the program, it has much less to do with needing that glitzy facility... Edit: I forgot to mention that MLB has done a fantastic job in hiring at VU. His only miss was on Carlson, and I believe he has hired 4-5 other coaches that have experienced success outside of Drew.
The football facilities at Valpo are atrocious. The players have said the only school they played this year with comparable facilities is St Josephs a D2 school. Have you been in the football lockeroom? The lockers are old rusted metal that had to be installed in the sixties. Fifty percent of the showers don't even work. 15 players have to dress and share a lockeroom across the hall from the majority of the team. Nice facilities will definetly get you better recruits, Why do you think most schools are upgrading their facilities? I don't know what other D1 baseball facilities look like but I do know Valpo's baseball facilities blow the drawers off the football facilities!! Facilities won't win you games but it sure helps.
Tom Horne was the Head Coach in 1989. He coached the last four years of D2 football. He went 2 -27 -1 in his first three years. The last year in D2 his team won three games. In '93 which was first year in Pioneer they won 5. In '94 they went 7 - 3. They were also the First Pioneer Football league team to schedule a game with an IVY, Yale in Soldier Field ('97 season). Recruiting advantage
Where are the current football locker rooms and offices located? Are they the same as they were back at the Hilltop in the 80's? If so, they were dumpy back then and this would be mind boggling.
Bottom line is that Horne won the conference twice (2000, 2003) with all of the disadvantages we have now.
If anything all of Heckler's hype and the beautiful new campus buildings should be making it easier to recruit. The library and union did not exist until after 2003.
Enough crying about the obstacles. Get the right leader like you got in VB, soccer, and baseball and you can win.
Jim Tressel is eligible to coach next season. He's fundraising at Akron U now....
and tattoo parlors are few in the Valpo area!
Quote from: usc4valpo on November 17, 2013, 07:03:34 PMand tattoo parlors are few in the Valpo area!
You've obviously never heard of
Sacred Chao
Tattooing & Piercing (http://www.facebook.com/SacredChaoTattooingAndPiercings)
206 Elm St
Valparaiso
(219) 531-2020
Umbrella Ink (http://umbrellainktattoo.net/)
821 E Lincolnway
Valparaiso
(219) 462-4465
4 Google reviews
1052 Marsh St
Valparaiso
(219) 476-0101
Ruffhouse
Tattoos (http://www.ruffhousetattoo.com/)4 Google reviews
307 E Lincolnway
Valparaiso
(219) 548-1308
Tattooing and Body Piercing by Doug Thompson (http://www.dougtattoo.com/)Google+ page
307 E Lincolnway
Valparaiso
(219) 286-4929
Well, I'll be...
I would love to see a big name person take over the realms here. I doubt it will happen of course.
How about Jerry Glanville, where Brown Field can become the new House of Pain?
Quote from: usc4valpo link=topic=1633y.msg38407#msg38407 date=1384741075
Well, I'll be...
I would love to see a big name person take over the realms here. I doubt it will happen of course.
How about Jerry Glanville, where Brown Field can become the new House of Pain?
I thought State Farm Center in ChamPAIGN was the "House of Paign." At least the Illini fans think it is called that.
Quote from: usc4valpo on November 17, 2013, 08:17:55 PMHow about Jerry Glanville, where Brown Field can become the new House of Pain?
we would have to hire a graduate assistant just to change his adult diaper, probably
also there's been enough pain there for one decade
Quote from: crusadermoe on November 17, 2013, 05:40:50 PM
Bottom line is that Horne won the conference twice (2000, 2003) with all of the disadvantages we have now.
If anything all of Heckler's hype and the beautiful new campus buildings should be making it easier to recruit. The library and union did not exist until after 2003.
Enough crying about the obstacles. Get the right leader like you got in VB, soccer, and baseball and you can win.
Facility biggot here again. Moe's right. This program has to demonstrate that it deserves the grander facility investment (i.e., stadium). But, there is talent here already -- it just has not been evaluated properly or put in a position to win by the last two coaching regimes.
To assist the new coach out of the blocks right away .....
Tier IFirst, invest in a full, F/T staff. Invest in a bigger recruiting budget.
Tier II Then invest in better lockers and the off-field experience. Knock out some walls and fix the showers.
Tier IIIAfter all that, look at replacing the main grandstands and press box and make Brown Field a true FCS facility. Hopefully by then the track will fill the grassy void between the grandstand and the playing field.
Once the Field House gets built on the Porter Hospital property and some of the other sports move there, bring the FB team back to the ARC and give them a really good locker, weight training and meeting facility.
Quote from: crusadermoe on November 17, 2013, 05:40:50 PMEnough crying about the obstacles. Get the right leader like you got in VB, soccer, and baseball and you can win.
I think if you asked the 3 coaches, C Avery, M Avery and Woodson/Schmack if facilities were a negative in recruiting compared to schools that they are competing with for recruits that all 3 would agree with the statement. They have learned to use the school's academic reputation to counter the negative effect from facilities. What could these great coaches do if they could emphasize facilities? Why should we handicap a new coach, who will be attempting to resurrect a program lower than any other in Div. I (sans maybe Grambling) by making him recruit around the facilities issue. Carlson deserved better facilities but, I don't believe, he would have won with those better facilities anyway. Show the commitment to winning by upgrading the facilities. Show the commitment to winning by paying the head coach and staff better than the average of PFL coaches. Show the commitment to winning by demanding a winning record in 3 to 4 years. Show the commitment to winning by allowing the new head coach to go the allowable PFL limits on financial aid. Show the commitment to winning by "thinking outside the box" when dealing with football issues. Show a
real commitment to winning!!!!
I've read both Hutton articles. These were sportswriters pieces, intending to either vent or sling mud upon those he feels are in control. Sometimes in journalism you need someone to say what they feel about a sports team. Other than he seemed to feel slighted about not getting an email about the firing, I don't think his venting was particularly hateful - he didn't say anything that hasn't been on this board several times over the last two years.
I agree that we, and the future football coaching staff, need to tie into the network of former players. I've said in the past that the Valpo program needs to be where young men come to get a good education, and for some to use that for their future in coaching. When our former players and student volunteers are along the sidelines on Friday nights and Saturday afternoons in great numbers, feeding the current team with talent and overall good publicity - that is when the VU Football program is in the right place. Former players, even if not in coaching, most likely still have a finger on the pulse of their local HS football teams, and can provide a first hand recommendations - but only if asked. Whomever becomes the next coach really needs to bring back the former players and recognize them in some way, and build a trusting relationship with those players.
Hutton has some good points, and VU should capitalize the opportunity of his press to show the what, where, when, how and why of future VU Football.
Quote from: covufan on November 18, 2013, 12:28:11 PM
I've read both Hutton articles. These were sportswriters pieces, intending to either vent or sling mud upon those he feels are in control. Sometimes in journalism you need someone to say what they feel about a sports team. Other than he seemed to feel slighted about not getting an email about the firing, I don't think his venting was particularly hateful - he didn't say anything that hasn't been on this board several times over the last two years.
I agree that we, and the future football coaching staff, need to tie into the network of former players. I've said in the past that the Valpo program needs to be where young men come to get a good education, and for some to use that for their future in coaching. When our former players and student volunteers are along the sidelines on Friday nights and Saturday afternoons in great numbers, feeding the current team with talent and overall good publicity - that is when the VU Football program is in the right place. Former players, even if not in coaching, most likely still have a finger on the pulse of their local HS football teams, and can provide a first hand recommendations - but only if asked. Whomever becomes the next coach really needs to bring back the former players and recognize them in some way, and build a trusting relationship with those players.
Hutton has some good points, and VU should capitalize the opportunity of his press to show the what, where, when, how and why of future VU Football.
Remember that Carlson brought with him his offensive coordinator who became asst head coach and recruiting coordinator as I recall. His name was Bob Muckian who was a former Valpo player from the 90's.
Whether or not Carlson allowed Bob to do proper networking is a good question, but the staff did have a former Valpo player in a very high spot. Bob left before last season to take a new job out east somewhere.
http://www.valpoathletics.com/football/news/2009-10/9530/valpo-grad-bob-muckian-named-crusader-offensive-coordinator/ (http://www.valpoathletics.com/football/news/2009-10/9530/valpo-grad-bob-muckian-named-crusader-offensive-coordinator/)
Quote from: vu72 on November 18, 2013, 01:05:49 PM
Quote from: covufan on November 18, 2013, 12:28:11 PM
I've read both Hutton articles. These were sportswriters pieces, intending to either vent or sling mud upon those he feels are in control. Sometimes in journalism you need someone to say what they feel about a sports team. Other than he seemed to feel slighted about not getting an email about the firing, I don't think his venting was particularly hateful - he didn't say anything that hasn't been on this board several times over the last two years.
I agree that we, and the future football coaching staff, need to tie into the network of former players. I've said in the past that the Valpo program needs to be where young men come to get a good education, and for some to use that for their future in coaching. When our former players and student volunteers are along the sidelines on Friday nights and Saturday afternoons in great numbers, feeding the current team with talent and overall good publicity - that is when the VU Football program is in the right place. Former players, even if not in coaching, most likely still have a finger on the pulse of their local HS football teams, and can provide a first hand recommendations - but only if asked. Whomever becomes the next coach really needs to bring back the former players and recognize them in some way, and build a trusting relationship with those players.
Hutton has some good points, and VU should capitalize the opportunity of his press to show the what, where, when, how and why of future VU Football.
Remember that Carlson brought with him his offensive coordinator who became asst head coach as I recall. His name was Bob Muchian (sp?) who was a former Valpo player from the 80's.
Whether or not Carlson allowed Bob to do proper networking is a good question, but the staff did have a former Valpo player in a very high spot. Bob left before last season to take a new job out east somewhere.
Maybe we miss a simple but important requirement when wanting to keep good people from leaving their jobs. What things do you want from your employment? Salary, work environment, good cooperation between staff and safe work environment among some other things. The new head coach must think of these things also when hiring a staff and setting up routines.
Quote from: bbtds on November 18, 2013, 01:16:26 PMRemember that Carlson brought with him his offensive coordinator who became asst head coach as I recall. His name was Bob Muchian (sp?) who was a former Valpo player from the 80's.
Whether or not Carlson allowed Bob to do proper networking is a good question, but the staff did have a former Valpo player in a very high spot. Bob left before last season to take a new job out east somewhere.
Maybe we miss a simple but important requirement when wanting to keep good people from leaving their jobs. What things do you want from your employment? Salary, work environment, good cooperation between staff and safe work environment among some other things. The new head coach must think of these things also when hiring a staff and setting up routines.
I believe that Muckian was well respected here at VU, but was getting married and wanted to be out East for the family. I think it was ml2 that informed us of this info.
Quote from: covufan on November 18, 2013, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: bbtds on November 18, 2013, 01:16:26 PMRemember that Carlson brought with him his offensive coordinator who became asst head coach as I recall. His name was Bob Muchian (sp?) who was a former Valpo player from the 80's.
Whether or not Carlson allowed Bob to do proper networking is a good question, but the staff did have a former Valpo player in a very high spot. Bob left before last season to take a new job out east somewhere.
Maybe we miss a simple but important requirement when wanting to keep good people from leaving their jobs. What things do you want from your employment? Salary, work environment, good cooperation between staff and safe work environment among some other things. The new head coach must think of these things also when hiring a staff and setting up routines.
I believe that Muckian was well respected here at VU, but was getting married and wanted to be out East for the family. I think it was ml2 that informed us of this info.
Not to be sexist but why wasn't Muckian's job as important as his fiance's and why did Bob feel it wasn't that important to live in NW Indiana? Every decision involves weighing all the options no matter what excuses we make for not considering those options.
Although he was a Valpo grad, B.M. did spend a lot of time coaching in the East: Assumption (D-II), Columbia (D-IAA), Bowdoin (D-III).
His move back there to St. Anselm's did not change his fortunes nor, apparently, did he change their's. The Hawks were 1-11 in 2013. Gave up 409; scored 290. They were 2-9 in 2012. Kinda deja VU.
Bowie St. L, 42-28
Stonehill * L, 52-24
New Haven * L, 70-26
Southern Conn. St. * L, 42-20
Bentley * L, 32-27
Assumption * L, 41-27
Merrimack * L, 51-9
American Int'l * L, 41-21
LIU Post * L, 41-40
Pace * W, 63-33
Bentley Northeast-10 Championship Weekend - #9 at #6 L, 56-41
Quote from: VULB#62 on November 18, 2013, 02:33:19 PMAlthough he was a Valpo grad, B.M. did spend a lot of time coaching in the East: Assumption (D-II), Columbia (D-IAA), Bowdoin (D-III). His move back there to St. Anselm's did not change his fortunes nor, apparently, did he change their's. The Hawks were 1-11 in 2013. Gave up 409; scored 290. They were 2-9 in 2012. Kinda deja VU.
Did St Anselm's track suddenly dissolve into the ground around the football field? I like the Deja V.U. expression.
Quote from: historyman on November 18, 2013, 03:15:45 PM
Did St Anselm's track suddenly dissolve into the ground around the football field? I like the Deja V.U. expression.
[/quote]
;) Never had one - no T&F team, just CC. Dedicated turf FB stadium with chairback reserved section - quite nice.