The Valparaiso Beacons Fan Zone Forum

Ohio lost to Ohio State by 10 in Columbus. Will Valpo find the skill and mental toughness to rebound and beat the Bobcats in Athens?

If we can go punch for punch with Illinois we should be able to beat the Bobcats. Gotta play the game though, another tough game on the road. Hopefully we can pull through in this one and make our damn free throws!

I see a win against a team that doesn't give Valpo players the 'big program jitters' we seem to get nowadays.  I know that they are a good team in the past few years, but the name of Ohio does nothing to most basketball players.  It will be a close game, but I think the aspect of having less mystique will take the pressure off our guys.

Valpo 73
Ohio 69

I think we have a good chance to win one of the next two games on the road (Ohio, Evansville). 

Valpo   71
Ohio     70

Ohio has more experience and played better against a much better team at Ohio State than we did at Illinois:  Ohio 76, Valpo 64.   I still like the future for this team but it may be the conference schedule before we gain any momentum.

Like Valpo, Ohio lost a lot of minutes from last year, including one of their best players in the program's history. Last year they lost in the MAC championship game to Akron (a team that was hanging on for dear life after a couple suspensions... before completely flat-lining against VCU in the tournament). They are projected in the middle of the MAC via the coaches poll and after week 1 and received 33 votes in the mid major top 25 (Valpo had 58). They have played 2 games: The first game an 11 point win against UNI (opened the season ranked 6th in MM Top 25) and the second a hard fought 10 point defeat against Ohio State (ranked 10 in AP poll).

The MAC is kind of a weird conference. There's always a handful of really decent teams and Ohio has had some tournament success recently... but there's also a lot of bottom dwellers like Northern Illinois and Bowling Green that push the conference back down.

I think Ohio is right around Valpo's caliber which makes me want to predict the game going to the home team.

Looks like there may be (free?) streaming video.  It seems that there was for the northern Iowa game.

Yes, the MAC does stream their games online for FREE!!

Quote from: valporun on November 14, 2013, 02:31:28 PM
Yes, the MAC does stream their games online for FREE!!

Where'd they get that idea?

I'll skip the Athens game so I can get to the Evansville game where I think Valpo could put it together and finally pull one out. Also it spreads it out more from the Illinois game.

I hope Bryce realizes we will get jobbed by the refs in Evansville and techs at the end of games after the fact don't help. Get mad immediately before the calls get worse. I think the refs know what kind of guy you are and a more volatile response early will get a ref that knows you to think "I wonder why he is reacting so unusual for me. I gotta get better," before the biggest calls of the game happen. 

Quote from: bbtds on November 14, 2013, 03:58:47 PMI hope Bryce realizes we will get jobbed by the refs in Evansville and techs at the end of games after the fact don't help. Get mad immediately before the calls get worse. I think the refs know what kind of guy you are and a more volatile response early will get a ref that knows you to think "I wonder why he is reacting so unusual for me. I gotta get better," before the biggest calls of the game happen. 

I figured the T was for the players, not the refs.

Maybe we should edit the title?  Either switch to central time, add the time zone to the title, or both?  2:00 PM EST, 1:00 PM CST.

Quote from: agibson on November 14, 2013, 05:34:20 PM
Maybe we should edit the title?  Either switch to central time, add the time zone to the title, or both?  2:00 PM EST, 1:00 PM CST.

My mistake. I looked up the game time on the HL website and forgot they list game time as eastern.

I think our starting lineup needs adjusted. If dority isn't a point guard, then why play him there.  Besides having a good shot, dority is average at every other aspect. Williams should start and bobby needs to be benched.

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Quote from: truth219 on November 14, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
I think our starting lineup needs adjusted. If dority isn't a point guard, then why play him there.  Besides having a good shot, dority is average at every other aspect. Williams should start and bobby needs to be benched.

Agreed. Bobby, looks awful, I know he was injured but that doesn't account for the bonehead plays he's been making on the court. I'm not saying we win the Illinois game without Bobby but I think we would've had a much higher chance. Everyone else I've been pleased with. Bobby looks awful and had 5 of our 12 turnovers against Illinois, which is ridiculous in my opinion. I'd say move Peters to the 4. I know Moussa hasn't been anything special but he plays solid defense and so does Vashil, they take away their big man, Bobby has been a liability offensively and defensively and has always been in foul trouble.

So far the 2 biggest surprises has been the play of Lexus Williams and Jordan Coleman and the biggest disappointment has been Bobby. Perhaps benching him will wake him up cause he's done nothing so far this season other than make a few 3 pointers.

Id like to see jubril get some more minutes. He only got one minute on Wednesday and got 2 points.



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Quote from: classof2014 on November 14, 2013, 07:47:18 PM

Quote from: truth219 on November 14, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
I think our starting lineup needs adjusted. If dority isn't a point guard, then why play him there.  Besides having a good shot, dority is average at every other aspect. Williams should start and bobby needs to be benched.

Agreed. Bobby, looks awful, I know he was injured but that doesn't account for the bonehead plays he's been making on the court. I'm not saying we win the Illinois game without Bobby but I think we would've had a much higher chance. Everyone else I've been pleased with. Bobby looks awful and had 5 of our 12 turnovers against Illinois, which is ridiculous in my opinion. I'd say move Peters to the 4. I know Moussa hasn't been anything special but he plays solid defense and so does Vashil, they take away their big man, Bobby has been a liability offensively and defensively and has always been in foul trouble.

So far the 2 biggest surprises has been the play of Lexus Williams and Jordan Coleman and the biggest disappointment has been Bobby. Perhaps benching him will wake him up cause he's done nothing so far this season other than make a few 3 pointers.

Okay, this is not going to be popular, but I am going to defend Bobby. The comments here are similar to ones posted last year even into the beginning of conference play. I just looked at the posts after the January Loyola loss, and the criticism of Bobby was the same. However, later in the season his play was praised, especially after the ejection at Detroit.

First of all, Bobby's play has not been as bad as stated. His field goal shooting is at 60%. His three-point shooting is at 83%. He is averaging 1 point for every 2 minutes of play. He has committed 8 turnovers in 3 games (2.6 avg.) He has committed 7 fouls in three games, an average a little more than 2. Admittedly, he doesn't exhibit the flow or stamina that he had at his peak last year, but he did get a slow start to the season because of his lingering leg injury and lack of practice time. Last year he also had a slow start due to his surgery.

In addition, he is playing a new position this year, which will require a different approach, a couple more outside shots, and probably result in fewer rebounds. As a forward rather than a center, he is up against quicker players, especially when the opposing team is Illinois. Therefore, I would expect more turnovers and fouls as a result. However, when we get to conference play, I also expect Bobby to be stronger, to be more in the flow, and to match up well in most games; therefore, his stats will improve.

On the board last year when there were similar complaints, I recommended patience with Bobby's progress, and he proved the wait was worth it. I will be patient again this year, and I hope he exhibits progress the way he did last year.

Quote from: valpopal on November 14, 2013, 08:50:19 PMOkay, this is not going to be popular, but I am going to defend Bobby.

Hear, hear!

Quote from: valpopal on November 14, 2013, 08:50:19 PM

Quote from: classof2014 on November 14, 2013, 07:47:18 PM

Quote from: truth219 on November 14, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
I think our starting lineup needs adjusted. If dority isn't a point guard, then why play him there.  Besides having a good shot, dority is average at every other aspect. Williams should start and bobby needs to be benched.

Agreed. Bobby, looks awful, I know he was injured but that doesn't account for the bonehead plays he's been making on the court. I'm not saying we win the Illinois game without Bobby but I think we would've had a much higher chance. Everyone else I've been pleased with. Bobby looks awful and had 5 of our 12 turnovers against Illinois, which is ridiculous in my opinion. I'd say move Peters to the 4. I know Moussa hasn't been anything special but he plays solid defense and so does Vashil, they take away their big man, Bobby has been a liability offensively and defensively and has always been in foul trouble.

So far the 2 biggest surprises has been the play of Lexus Williams and Jordan Coleman and the biggest disappointment has been Bobby. Perhaps benching him will wake him up cause he's done nothing so far this season other than make a few 3 pointers.

Okay, this is not going to be popular, but I am going to defend Bobby. The comments here are similar to ones posted last year even into the beginning of conference play. I just looked at the posts after the January Loyola loss, and the criticism of Bobby was the same. However, later in the season his play was praised, especially after the ejection at Detroit.

First of all, Bobby's play has not been as bad as stated. His field goal shooting is at 60%. His three-point shooting is at 83%. He is averaging 1 point for every 2 minutes of play. He has committed 8 turnovers in 3 games (2.6 avg.) He has committed 7 fouls in three games, an average a little more than 2. Admittedly, he doesn't exhibit the flow or stamina that he had at his peak last year, but he did get a slow start to the season because of his lingering leg injury and lack of practice time. Last year he also had a slow start due to his surgery.

In addition, he is playing a new position this year, which will require a different approach, a couple more outside shots, and probably result in fewer rebounds. As a forward rather than a center, he is up against quicker players, especially when the opposing team is Illinois. Therefore, I would expect more turnovers and fouls as a result. However, when we get to conference play, I also expect Bobby to be stronger, to be more in the flow, and to match up well in most games; therefore, his stats will improve.

On the board last year when there were similar complaints, I recommended patience with Bobby's progress, and he proved the wait was worth it. I will be patient again this year, and I hope he exhibits progress the way he did last year.

I agree with valpopal's assessment. Bobby wasn't all bad in the Illinois game. Yes, there were some boner plays but there were some boner plays by almost everybody. Given positives and negatives with Capo I think it comes out fairly even given the 2 important threes. Bobby will get even better as he heals more. I think a huge thing for Valpo will be the condition of LaVonte's ankle going into the Ohio game on Sunday afternoon.

Hopefully we can work in some of the KVW low post work moves for Bobby.  It looks like we have tried to get everyone on the perimeter except him a few times, but he hasn't been able to work himself to that inside position to get the lob pass near the basket, that led to so many KVW lay-ups.  If we get that play to work a little better for him, it will open up other parts of our offense.

I saw that 2 players each had 21 points for the Bobcats against Ohio State in the 10 point loss. Nick Kellogg in 34 minutes, a guard, was 3 for 7 from three and 5 for 6 from two. Kellogg made 2 FT's. Stevie Taylor, another guard, was 2 for 6 from three and 6 for 11 from two along with 3 FT's and no missed free throws out of 5 from the guards while the starting forwards missed 4 total charity tosses out of 7. It's seems we need to foul the forwards if possible, Maurice Ndour and Jon Smith (who's parents obviously saw nothing special about him) instead of the guards. With Taylor getting 33 minutes there was only about 8 or 9 minutes when both guards weren't on the floor.

Five Bobcat payers fouled out at Columbus when the refs called every foul they saw. Both Kellogg and Taylor made it through to the end but Ndour, Smith and the other starter, Ricardo Johnson, plus 2 players off the bench, fouled out. Not surprisingly no Buckeyes fouled out of this game as the foul difference was 34 to 21 in favor of Bobcat fouls. I think this is where the major teams get help from the refs when the fouls are called so tightly, especially when the majors play on their home court.

In Valpo's game at Illinois the foul difference was 20 to 17 with only 3 more Crusader fouls called while it seemed many more Illini fouls could have been tallied on hand checks, which don't seemed to get called on majors at home.

Aaron Craft, by himself, made 8 FT's for the OSU at the end of the game in the parade to the line. That's extremely important in a 10 point win.

Without the huge foul difference with the Bobcats being at home and the forwards and Johnson most likely not fouling out or sending a parade of players to the FT line, I see Ohio being extremely tough.

QuoteDown by double figures most of the game, the Bobcats got back into it in the closing minutes behind the play of Stevie Taylor and Nick Kellogg, both from Columbus, who both scored 21 points.

Trailing 64-53, Kellogg hit a reverse layup in traffic before Craft missed a layup at the other end. A long pass led to Taylor's three-point play that cut it to 64-58 with just over 5 minutes remaining.

"Nick and I are roommates," Taylor said. "We talked about just coming home and playing solid, doing whatever it is that Coach wanted us to do. We did a good job of that."

After a free throw by Craft, Maurice Ndour hit a follow shot to cut it to 65-60. Williams then tipped in a miss by Ross. Off an Ohio miss, Craft hit two more foul shots to push the lead back to 69-60.

Still, the game wasn't firmly in hand until Shannon Scott drove the left baseline and flipped a pass to the right corner to Smith who hit a 3 with 2 minutes remaining for a 74-64 lead.

The Bobcats never got closer than seven points again as Craft scored nine of Ohio State's last 12 points.

http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/111213aaa.html (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/111213aaa.html)

Here's the page for the link to the Valpo at Ohio U men's bb game.

I clicked on the link but got nothing yet. I assume it will be active by Sunday.

http://www.mac-sports.com/Schools/Ohio.aspx (http://www.mac-sports.com/Schools/Ohio.aspx)

And if not, our old classmate, Jon Steinbrecher, I'm sure, will come riding to the rescue.

Nick Kellogg is a good college ballplayer and son of Ohio State legend Clark Kellogg ("squeeze the orange"). Ohio is very solid and very guard orientated but have very tough, physical inside players. The #MACtion was always the "little B1G" as the players were a bit smaller than the B1G but the league was just as physical. Ohio still has that make up. Plus, we're on the road coming off a frustrating loss. We can win this game, but need to be tougher to the hole than at Illinois and have to take advantage of shots we have. Again, offensively how many missed layups and fast breaks. As to Booby's TOs the other night, 2 were on questionable offensive foul calls (phantom and inconsistently called moving pick away from the ball) and a travel where he was pushed to the floor by an Illini player at the basket. We need to rebound better. Looking for continued improvement on offense in flow and finding open looks, esepcially the big guys. Defense the other night was very solid against a B1G. Held someone to under 65 in their gym with the new rules. Realize how blessed we are with a goalie at the basket in Moussa and Vashil is playing well defensively. Illinois was a winnable game. This is a team in development, patience for a few games (analysis that says so and so is terrible and needs to be benched after 2 real games playing together is not analysis) and then let's see what we have.

This is a very winnable game. Not gonna be easy and not saying they're gonna win but they can. Both Vashil and Moussa can take away any scoring around the rim turning teams to become one dimensional and we saw that against Illinois, I would imagine that's gonna be the same for Ohio. I hope we have a better rebounding performance both on the offensive and defensive glass. I would like to see them get more open looks and more opportunities for high percentage shots. As I've stated before, FREE THROWS!!!!! We need to make them, we left 9 points on the court against Illinois and 12 points on the court against Murray State. If we wanna beat good teams on the road free throws are so damn important.

I would love to see Alec get some opportunities from 3-point range since he hasn't had many chances so far. Overall, I like our defense, Moussa and Vashil completely take away the inside, hopefully they can do something offensively against Ohio.

From what I've seen from the team so far, they're gonna be really tough to beat this year especially come Horizon League play once Keith Carter becomes eligible. There's a chance he's the best player in the league and we have him in our back pocket right now waiting just another month before he suits up.

Back to the Ohio game, I think Valpo pulls out the win. They have a bitter taste in their mouths after coming out unsuccessful in Champaign.

Valpo 75 Ohio 68

Quote from: valpo84 on November 15, 2013, 08:08:36 AMRealize how blessed we are with a goalie at the basket

best phrase of the month

That OU arena is a really tough place to play... and I hope we can get a return-engagement with the bobcats in the ARC next year... Valpo wins if it can hit more than 75% of the free throws... and I hope there was a lot of charity stripe practice since Illinois.  Woulda Coulda Shoulda...  This game will tell us a lot. 

Regardless, I think we can take Evansville...

I have a feeling Jordan Coleman is gonna have a breakout game. Gonna finish with 25 pts, 11 boards, 4 assists, and 2 steals, to only 1 turnover. In a Valpo win.

Ohio fan here.  Looking forward to, watching the game tomorrow. I remember the last time you guys game to Athens, a 3 point Ohio win in November 2010. Broekhoff had a huge game if I remember right.

We did lose 5 seniors (4 starters )from last years team. However, we are starting 3 seniors and a Junior this year, so we still have some experience.  Our starting 5 will probably be:

PG - Stevie Taylor (JR) is playing better than most expected. Had 21 at Ohio State.
SG - Nick Kellogg (SR, son of former Ohio State forward Clark Kellogg). he's a career 40% 3 point shooter.
SF - Ricardo Johnson. (SR) Spent a lot, of time improving his jumper.
PF - Maurice Ndour (jR, JUCO transfer) scored 20 against Northern Iowa. Very athletic.
C - Jon Smith (SR) Good defender and shot blocker.

I'd expect Ohio to go 9 deep, if they need another big, one of the freshman will make it 10. Most Ohio fans have been pleasantly surprised with how the team has been playing so far. Our message board is bobcatattack.com if anyone wants to come on over.

I saw someone posted a link to the MAC web site for the free stream, but you can also use the url below to go straight through Ohio.

client.stretchinternet.com/client/ohio.portal

Good Luck.

thanks, man.  welcome and good game tomorrow.

Drew, Crusaders gaining national attention

http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/drew-crusaders-gaining-national-attention/article_a5d5541b-328e-59ff-a0e0-052cbe005453.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/drew-crusaders-gaining-national-attention/article_a5d5541b-328e-59ff-a0e0-052cbe005453.html)

Totally made the mistake of writing Derek Kellogg (UMass coach) instead of Clark Kellogg. Oops.

I think this is going to be a tough road game.   Hopefully we can figure out how to close in the end.   While I think we performed well overall in the last game I am concerned about how we fell apart in the last 5 minutes. 

We just need to figure out who our go-to is.   And that may take a few more game.   

And news on Lavonte's ankle?

For anybody who can't watch the game live. Ohio has a site that replays all of its games. I'm hoping it's posted by tonight, if not it'll be up by tomorrow.

Here's the link, it doesn't show the score of the game either, so it still feels like watching the game live.
http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/ohio.portal# (http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/ohio.portal#)

Quote from: agibson on November 14, 2013, 05:29:29 PM

Quote from: bbtds on November 14, 2013, 03:58:47 PMI hope Bryce realizes we will get jobbed by the refs in Evansville and techs at the end of games after the fact don't help. Get mad immediately before the calls get worse. I think the refs know what kind of guy you are and a more volatile response early will get a ref that knows you to think "I wonder why he is reacting so unusual for me. I gotta get better," before the biggest calls of the game happen. 

I figured the T was for the players, not the refs.

BTN announcers came to same conclusion after watching replay.  Can't say I disagree; didn't look like there was much contact at all on the play, at least on TV.

This game might not be the most important thing for Alec Peters today.

A tornado has just touched down near Washington, IL and info is being updated.

EDIT: There is confirmation that a storm did heavy damage to Pekin, IL.

Thoughts are with that community, and hope that Peters' family is ok as well.

Quote from: valpotx on November 17, 2013, 12:29:05 PM
Thoughts are with that community, and hope that Peters' family is ok as well.

Yes, prayers for Peters' family, friends, and neighbors. Images of destruction coming from Alec's hometown are devastating.

Wow, that was an ugly first half.  Our freshman are playing like, well, freshman and our upper classmen are also playing like freshman.  I would have expected a performance like this aginst Illinois, not Ohio.  Then again, Ohio only lost to OSU by 10 so maybe they are that good.

Did the stream from WVUR go down or is it me...  What stations are now in the VU Radio Network? 

Best description of the 1st half:

These guys (Valpo players) look like they've never met before today's game.

Ohio color commentator (late in the 1st half)

Yes, WVUR did go down. The weather around the Illinois map has been nuts, and the storm's path is along Valpo's radar. Thankfully, we have the Ohio video feed today. Just wish these guys would wake up a bit.

Anybody have an update on the game? I can't get the OU video feed to work. (And I'm also distracted by football on TV and the severe weather racing through the Midwest.)

Quote from: valpopal on November 17, 2013, 01:01:48 PM

Quote from: valpotx on November 17, 2013, 12:29:05 PM
Thoughts are with that community, and hope that Peters' family is ok as well.

Yes, prayers for Peters' family, friends, and neighbors. Images of destruction coming from Alec's hometown are devastating.

Update: First word is that Alec's family is okay and helping their neighbors.

Other thoughts from the 1st half:

Bobby is not now nor ever will be a power forward.  He cannot dribble against ball pressure and can't finish without getting his shot blocked.  Lavonte is not now nor ever will be a point guard.  Until people are playing their proper positions, the team is going to continue to struggle against good (not great by any stretch) competition like Ohio.  End of the 1st semester can't get here soon enough.

Have we ever practiced against hedging?  Sure doesn't look like it.  They are completely taking us out of our offense.  It's their 5 doing it, and we have failed to make them pay one time for leaving our center completely unguarded.  Oh, to have KVW for one more half of basketball...

Quote from: valpopal on November 17, 2013, 02:20:49 PM

Quote from: valpopal on November 17, 2013, 01:01:48 PM

Quote from: valpotx on November 17, 2013, 12:29:05 PM
Thoughts are with that community, and hope that Peters' family is ok as well.

Yes, prayers for Peters' family, friends, and neighbors. Images of destruction coming from Alec's hometown are devastating.

Update: First word is that Alec's family is okay and helping their neighbors.

Excellent news!

This is a hard game to watch.  Just ugly.  We do not run set plays at all.  It would be nice to get Peters some open looks from deep.

Announcers "Gueye is physically impressive and intimidating but very limited offensively. However looks impressive coming off the bus"

Oof...I do like that this group never seems to give up though!  Our last two games could have easily devolved into 20pt losses.

Bryce needs to evaluate this game in-depth, not just on the player side.  His tight game management needs some work.  How do you not call for a better play on some of those possessions, instead of early shots?  Why did we wait 10 seconds to foul after that missed 3, when the game and shot clocks were synched??  How do you leave yourself 2 timeouts with 15 minutes left in the game?  Why are we calling timeouts at the same time a media timeout is going to happen?

Bobby needs to play less if he is going to pretend that he knows how to dribble into traffic.  Dority needs to be commanded to learn how to get a quality shot in the last 2 minutes of a close game.  He had one turnover and 2 poorly selected lay-up attempts in a one possession game.  I can live with the missed shots by Peters, though still think we could have taken a better shot than a 3 pointer where his shoulders weren't square to the hoop.  Impressive that with around 20 turnovers we ended this close, but my enthusiasm for this year has been tempered for a few games now...dang it, I feel like setshot with this negativity  :)

Some non surprises- We can not go with 2 bigs against a smaller quicker team. The zone only bought us some time to keep our late game, man to man crew out of foul trouble.  The man was obviously much more effective but our small lineup will not be complete until Carter can play and Adekoya or Chadwick can give some better minutes. How many of those first half turnovers were attributable to their overplay coming across half court when we did not have ball handlers in the game?

Our small lineup is better than I thought.

Here's a thought:

Should we make Bobby like Jason Jenkins (for those of you who remember him)?

Just keep him on the perimeter for spot-up 3's, and not expect much rebounding or inside play.  This will prevent him from doing the dumb dribbling attempts.

TX you hit it right on the head and 100% agree. Time was on our side with those last plays.

Put bobby on the bench. Peters at the 4 and clay at the two. Bobby has lost his starting spot in my eyes.


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Predicted preseason that this team would be frustrating to watch, a team in progress with freshmen turnovers and inconsistent play, especially in the non-conference schedule, and today's game displayed those characteristics. I praised the freshmen in the Illinois game for playing 76 minutes without a single turnover; however, today they had 9 turnovers in 80 minutes, which was the difference in the game. The three-pojnt shooting (29%) was off also, but the free throw shooting (81%) was excellent most of the game. Valpo also out-rebounded Ohio by 10 boards.

Dority, Peters (with a double-double, but 6 turnovers), and Coleman were productive, though Coleman got his points at the free-throw line and was only 1-5 on field goals. Lexus had his weakest game thus far, and for the first time looked like a freshman. I still don't think the abuse of Bobby by some is warranted. His game was not stellar, but not as horrible as depicted in some comments: he had 5 points and 4 rebounds in just 17 minutes of play, and he only had 1 turnover to go with 1 assist.

This team is still learning to play together, particularly on the road in tough environments, especially the freshmen. I had predicted wins against Murray State and North Park, as well as losses against Illinois and Ohio, leading to a 5-4 November, which still seems reasonable to expect. 

At least they're working the ugliness out now. This team will be fine. I must reiterate, Bobby C should play as little as possible. Find minutes for Jubril or SOMETHING. Geez.

Quote from: valpopal on November 17, 2013, 04:33:37 PM
I still don't think the abuse of Bobby by some is warranted. His game was not stellar, but not as horrible as depicted in some comments: he had 5 points and 4 rebounds in just 17 minutes of play, and he only had 1 turnover to go with 1 assist.

 

Did Bryce have him on the bench to start the second half?  I couldn't tell as I missed the first portion of it.  Also, in those 17 minutes how many points did he give up on D?  He's too slow to guard out on the parameter and gives up easy shots.

Quote from: hoopfan22 on November 17, 2013, 05:54:47 PMI must reiterate, Bobby C should play as little as possible. Find minutes for Jubril or SOMETHING. Geez.

There will be many opportunities and matchups where Bobby can make great contribution at the 4 but many of us knew going into this game that playing 2 bigs against Ohio was going to create us some problems. So lets say that from my perspective it was a pick your poison type coaching decision. Yes we could have gone smaller earlier with better early play but the downside to that might have been fouling out 2 to 4 of our go small lineup. We needed to get as many minutes from Bobby as we could to give us a late game chance and we did.

The difference in this game may be the 4,5 or 6 turnovers that Ohio created mid-game when they overplayed everybody and threatened traps just past the mid court. None of our guards knew how to handle it and I'm not sure our coaches did either. (Carter may have struggled as well) From this they got several easy layups, and an opportunity to set the same thing up again. Maybe some off ball screens followed by someone sprinting out to receive the pass followed by somebody going backdoor? Do not know, I would have to watch that 8 minutes again to get an answer. ( I am sure the coaching staff will.)

This should be a pretty good man to man team come February and I am looking foreward to it.

Quote from: valpopal on November 17, 2013, 02:20:49 PM

Quote from: valpopal on November 17, 2013, 01:01:48 PM

Quote from: valpotx on November 17, 2013, 12:29:05 PM
Thoughts are with that community, and hope that Peters' family is ok as well.

Yes, prayers for Peters' family, friends, and neighbors. Images of destruction coming from Alec's hometown are devastating.

Update: First word is that Alec's family is okay and helping their neighbors.

Good, good to hear. I've been talking on the phone with a buddy, Snake, in the EMS office of Peoria County. At the time I talked to him he said he would try and find out some info about what areas were hit in Tazewell County(across the river from Peoria County). He said he couldn't find out about specific people at that time. He called me back a few minutes ago and found out the Peters' home was in a not-as-damaged area.

Peoria County EMS will be in Tazewell County all night. Snake will be taking the midnight to noon shift in Tazewell County in the Morton area which was hit but not as heavily. 

Call 800-621-3362 to contact FEMA to help in the area. Probably will be going to Illinois (Tazewell County) next week instead of Evansville.

Quote from: Chairback on November 17, 2013, 06:32:17 PM

Quote from: valpopal on November 17, 2013, 04:33:37 PM
I still don't think the abuse of Bobby by some is warranted. His game was not stellar, but not as horrible as depicted in some comments: he had 5 points and 4 rebounds in just 17 minutes of play, and he only had 1 turnover to go with 1 assist.

 

Did Bryce have him on the bench to start the second half?  I couldn't tell as I missed the first portion of it.  Also, in those 17 minutes how many points did he give up on D?  He's too slow to guard out on the parameter and gives up easy shots.

There were just six 3-point shots made by Ohio in the game, and only 1 was by Bobby's man. The others were all scored by guards. You can't blame Bobby for those, especially since he played center for more than four minutes he was in the game. In fact, Ohio only shot 27% (6-22) from the perimeter, so the perimeter defense must have been decent enough overall.

The game was simply lost on turnovers not poor defense of shooters. Valpo had 19 turnovers and Ohio only had 9: Ohio outscored Valpo on points off turnovers by 25-13 and on fast break points 13-6.

Nice to see them come back and nice to see Alec shoot and rebound well today (although he had 6 turnovers) I can overlook that since he was a freshman. This team is gonna be really good this year, I feel these two games will be big learning experiences for them. I think we should be able to beat Evansville (I figured they'd go 1-2 on the road).

These types of losses are good learning experiences. Games like this is where the experience comes into play. Last year, we probably win a close game like this, this year not so much. But this is how you gain experience. The team didn't collapse when they easily could have, this game and against Illinois.

I'm with the many who want Bobby on the bench, he has been awful and when his best game this season is unproductive you know you're in trouble. Once Keith becomes eligible and if Bobby keeps playing like garbage he's on the bench, no doubt. We saw the potential of Peters. Yes, he turned it over but he's also a freshman, so it's forgiven. Bobby tries to do too much. He fouls often, turns it over, takes bad shots, and can't finish, other than that he's been good this season.

Like I said he better start playing better because once Keith is eligible, Peters will take his spot and Bobby will make his way to the bench.

Overall pleased to see we didn't collapse, which is promising. I figured we'd have games like this but they will pay off come conference play. Hopefully they can take the next step and beat the Purple Aces on Wednesday. Overall, I'm not too worried about this team, they lost to two very good teams on the road, and weren't blown out and could have easily won both.

My thoughts and prayers are with the Peters family tonight as well as the many other communities hit by tornadoes throughout Illinois today.

Quote from: truth219 on November 17, 2013, 03:56:52 PM
Put bobby on the bench. Peters at the 4 and clay at the two. Bobby has lost his starting spot in my eyes.


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Agree that Peters has played well, but don't understand all the negativity towards Capobianco.  His shooting percentages are great ... 6 of 8 from three point range?  If anything, he should be playing more and Bryce should be figuring out how to get him more attempts from behind the arc.

Quote from: EddieCabot on November 17, 2013, 07:55:17 PM
Agree that Peters has played well, but don't understand all the negativity towards Capobianco.  His shooting percentages are great ... 6 of 8 from three point range?  If anything, he should be playing more and Bryce should be figuring out how to get him more attempts from behind the arc.

Other than that he hasn't done anything. He hasn't rebounded, he's turned it over, made some poor decisions shooting the ball. Somebody has to go to the bench once Carter is eligible. Dority has played well, Coleman has played well, Peters has played well, and Moussa has played well. Which leaves Bobby the odd man out. He has to realize his job is in jeopardy because he is being outpreformed. I don't know if the move is made right now but if he continues to preform poorly he is the most likely to lose his starting job once Carter is eligible.

Quote from: classof2014 on November 17, 2013, 07:41:44 PM
Bobby tries to do too much. He fouls often, turns it over, takes bad shots, and can't finish, other than that he's been good this season.

I'm not sure where you are getting your info, but Bobby has only 9 fouls in four games, an average just over 2, which is what he had today. He has had 9 turnovers in four games, the same average of just over 2, and he only had 1 today. He is shooting 53% on field goals and 75% from 3-point range for the four games. In fact, he has been the best 3-point shooter on the team. Those stats don't look like he's taking bad shots or not finishing. He is scoring almost 1 point for every 2 minutes he plays, third best and just behind Coleman and Dority.

PS: I just checked Bobby's stats for last year: he is playing 2 minutes more per game than last year, his 3-point shooting average is more than twice as good this year; his average points per game is 2 points higher; his free throw percentage is higher; his rebounding average is only down 0.5 per game and his field goal percentage is only down to 53% compared to 55% last year, even though he is not playing center this year.

Quote from: EddieCabot on November 17, 2013, 07:55:17 PMAgree that Peters has played well, but don't understand all the negativity towards Capobianco.

groupthink

Bobby had several failed attempts near the basket today and people got frustrated watching that.  I know I did.

That said, I saw him do some really good things too.

Slow rotations by Bobby in the game, and I have no idea how it was only 1 turnover for him.  Someone must have been given a few of his by accident  :)

Id have to say that some of you are too negative on Bobby...  He is NOT a liability on the floor.  He just does not bring the flash of a Jordan.   

The   entire Ohio team had quick hands.   Not sure if I have ever seen the ball stripped out of a team's hands as much as it happened in this game.

Overall - I am more frustrated with the team not running set plays to get players open and their poor shot selection.   Not sure but it just did not seem like they were running plays.   Funny though - early in the season they looked better when they were playing more of a loose game with ally oops...  (different competition - I know - but they seemed to have a more flowing offense.)

I was down at the game yesterday, and it was tough to watch at times. I can't remember who the quote is attributed to, but there is an old adage that you lose a game for every first year player you play big minutes. This was one of the games that is almost entirely attributable to the team's youth.

There were several points in yesterday's game were Lexus Williams looked absolutely lost on the floor. His two biggest issues were ball control and floor spacing. The most memorable was in the 2nd half: Lexus was in front of the Valpo bench near the corner, Bobby was supposed to set a screen to spring him for a basket cut. Bobby is yelling the entire way down the floor that he is out of position but Lexus never got his spacing right, the play doesn't work, and the possession ends in a turnover.

Hopefully this road trip will be a positive learning experience for the team. I think it's safe to say that Illinios, Ohio, and Evansville will be the three most hostile environments the team will face this season.

Lexus also is missing badly on 3s. If you are air balling at least 4 and a couple barely grazings front rim, you need to learn your range or dribble closer and pull up. Give Ohio's D some credit, we have many learning the offensive set and they disrupted the set. We are still learning base O set and have not worked in Carolina or back door cuts off high post or other plays that you are familiar with for a group who had run the O for 3 years. Patience. I am very encouraged and Peters had 2 chances, Coleman 1 and Dority 1 to tie or take lead with a minute to play. bob Knight used to always preach give me the chance to win or tie in last possession in tough games. These are road games people against quality opponents (that you all wanted in scheduling). We have fought back from deficits of double digits. We have areas of improvement and that's good. Plus, we will need to work in a new player in December. Remember, we are in generally a 1-bid league and December is for Presents, March is for Championships.

We committed 10 too many turnovers.  That's all the analysis of this game you need to do. 

Bobby is a trainwreck. 
1. He had at least 3 travel calls on "drives" to the hoop.  He shouldn't be trying to handle the ball up there. The announcers actually made a joke about it, saying "He isn't a guard, but he's trying to do guard things".
2. His 3ptm and percentage mask quite a bit. He's 5-13 from two. That's TERRIBLE for a supposed big. He's been bigger than every player that's defended him this year, and as we've seen from Vashil and Moussa, Bobby is the only one with back to the basket moves.  He should be inside doing the dirty work Kevin did last year. I thought pre-season that we'd be stronger inside with an improved Bobby but he's regressed to the early season of last year and #No3sBobby that we all hated.

#Some3sBobby needs to be put away for a while and we need February '13 Bobby. You know when he had 7 points and 5 boards per game, and when he shot 60% from the field and only took 4 threes and had 4 TOs in 8 games. Or when he took 4 threes in his THIRTY THREE shots for the month (By comparison he's got 8 threes in 21 shots).  Bobby isn't Rowdy, he should stop trying to play like him, focus on being a bigger version of KVW.

Quote from: Dave_2010 on November 18, 2013, 09:47:55 AM
Hopefully this road trip will be a positive learning experience for the team. I think it's safe to say that Illinios, Ohio, and Evansville will be the three most hostile environments the team will face this season.

Yeah, Resch (UWGB) and Illinois will be the toughest places we play, imho. I don't think Evansville will be difficult since we should quiet the crowd early.

I'm imagining Detroit will be tougher than Ohio.  Ohio was dead during the second half, until we finally took the lead. It may be one of the top 10 places we play in terms of crowd noise, but that's all the higher I'd rate it. I'm guessing our conference games could prove to be more hostile locales (sans UIC)

These games are learning experiences and this is how you gain experience. You lose some of these close contests on the road to tough teams. We're also doing it without a good PG. Dority isn't a PG and Williams still has work to do. Bobby isn't a 4, he's been hot from 3 but he'll probably cool down, he's not gonna shoot 75% for the season. I agree he needs to post up more and take the occasional outside shot, he travels all the time and makes poor decision. He's not a guard, he's a 6' 10" forward. Like you said we need the February version of Bobby from last year not this version.

Quote from: Kyle321n on November 18, 2013, 10:26:25 AM
I'm imagining Detroit will be tougher than Ohio.  Ohio was dead during the second half, until we finally took the lead. It may be one of the top 10 places we play in terms of crowd noise, but that's all the higher I'd rate it. I'm guessing our conference games could prove to be more hostile locales (sans UIC)

Detroit wasn't very hostile last year, and that was the undisputed two top teams in the Horizon playing each other on national TV during "rivalry week." I can't imagine it'd be any more hostile this year.

I disagree with the notion that Bobby shouldn't be taking 3 pointers. Power forwards like Nowitzki, Love, and Ilyasova have all had success in the NBA with shooting the open 3, so unjustifiably comparing NBA players with a college player not going in the NBA, I think it's not out of the question a big guy can play a similar style of offense. The three I mention certainly don't LEAD the team in 3 pointers attempted and certainly aren't trying to be shooting guards, but they all have a high percentage. Ilyasova, for example, lead the Bucks in 3 pt % last year at 44%, but was only 5th on the team in attempted 3 pointers per 36 min. If you can make them at a high percentage and are given a high percentage opportunity, take them. As long as Bobby doesn't turn into Cory Johnson shooting 3's, I'm okay with him taking SOME threes as long as we're playing a center.

With that being said, I'm disappointed with his offense everywhere else. His mid-range game isn't there, and his around the basket game is non existent. We don't have anyone to replace KWV. Bobby, Vashil, and Gueye can't score by the basket. Bobby from late last year was able to score around the basket, so I know it's there. He's just in a funk. Maybe benching him will send a message that he needs to work harder down low. Hey, if KVW was able to tear it up under the basket with a smaller size and a bad back, Bobby should be able to have at least SOME success there as well.

I asked this in the chat, but does anyone know why we haven't tried to run the KVW pass play?  The one where everyone is on the perimeter except the post, and he gets inside position to do a lay-up.

Quote from: Kyle321n on November 18, 2013, 10:26:25 AM1. He had at least 3 travel calls on "drives" to the hoop.

Take a gander at the box score.  1 TO.  Sorry, but I trust their counting over yours.

Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on November 18, 2013, 11:48:23 AM

Quote from: Kyle321n on November 18, 2013, 10:26:25 AM1. He had at least 3 travel calls on "drives" to the hoop.

Take a gander at the box score.  1 TO.  Sorry, but I trust their counting over yours.

I specifically recall 2 travel calls on him, both in the first half.

1. Bobby catches the ball from Yeo with his back to the basket around the elbow. He turns takes two steps and tries to sell he was fouled and throws the ball up. Travel called since he took two steps and lifted his pivot foot.

2. Bobby gets the ball at the top of key.  Takes 2 steps to get to the free throw line and starts to dribble.  The announcers specifically call this one out saying he's trying to drive the lane like a guard and point out he's 6'10".

not saying you didn't remember it.  I'm saying I trust things like this more than your memory, no offense.  check the pxp

http://www.valpoathletics.com/mbasketball/boxscore/2013-14/3999/valpo-vs-ohio-11-17-2013/ (http://www.valpoathletics.com/mbasketball/boxscore/2013-14/3999/valpo-vs-ohio-11-17-2013/)

Though the box score says 1 TO, I have the same recollection as Kyle, I am afraid.  I remember the two travel calls, so one had to be attributed to someone else by accident.  When I saw the 1 TO, it boggled my mind with some of the plays he made  :).

there are some TOs listed as "team".  maybe Sir TalksALot can shed some light on what the s'keeper were thinking.

I will say this and this is only my opinion and I'm sure the stats will prove me wrong. However, it seems to me that Coleman and Fernandez have both progressed every year they have been at valpo. Dority had improved his shooting, but his driving capabilities and decision making leave little to be desired. I haven't seen that in capobianco. I know he is a senior but still I believe we would be better of with a swingman as our 4 than have bobby try to.

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i'll give you credit for the 2nd phantom TO.

Even so, Capo turned the ball over half as often as Peters--and that's AFTER correcting for the difference in minutes played.

Quote from: truth219 on November 18, 2013, 01:34:42 PM
I will say this and this is only my opinion and I'm sure the stats will prove me wrong. However, it seems to me that Coleman and Fernandez have both progressed every year they have been at valpo. Dority had improved his shooting, but his driving capabilities and decision making leave little to be desired. I haven't seen that in capobianco. I know he is a senior but still I believe we would be better of with a swingman as our 4 than have bobby try to.

Agree 100% on that, Bobby hasn't improved at all. He doesn't have the ball-handling or quickness to be a 4. He's much better suited at posting up under the basket and take the occasional outside shot. Peters should be at the 4. I think the main issue with Dority this season is that he isn't a PG and he's had to play PG. He's much more of a 2 and once Carter is eligible I think he'll thrive in the 2 position.

Bobby hasn't done much this year. He only has one game where he had more than 10 points and that was against lowly North Park. He's never had more than 4 rebounds in a game, and only 3 offensive boards all season. He hasn't been a turnover machine but he hasn't done anything but make a few 3 pointers and he's not made more than 2 in a single game all season. Compared to last season he hasn't done much. If it weren't for the 3 pointers the scoring numbers would be much lower than they are right now.

Hillsdale- 8 mins, 0-3 shooting (0-2 from 3), 0 RBs, 0 TOs, 0 ast, and 2 PFs

RMU- 12 mins, 3 pts (1-3, 1-2 FT), 1 rb, 1 ast, 1 stl, 1 TO, 1 PF

MSU-16 mins, 9 pts (2-4, 2-3 from 3), 4 RBs, 1 ast, 1 stl, 2 TO, 3 PF

NP- 17 mins, 12 pts, (5-6, 1-1 from 3), 4 RBs, 2 ast, 0 stl, 0 TO, 0 PF

IL- 22 mins, 6 pts (2-5, 2-2 from 3), 3 RBs (2 oRB), 1 ast, 0 stl, 5 TOs, 4 PFs

OH- 17 mins, 5 pts, (2-6, 1-2 from 3), 4 RBs (1 oRB), 1 ast, 0  stl, 1 TO, 2 PFs

counting exhibition games where he was hurt is like counting sins one's already been forgiven.  Jesus forgets--shouldn't you?

The rest of the stats show a guy who picks his spots pretty well. 
--4th leading scorer on the team when he is playing the 7th (almost 8th) most minutes
--among the 8-man rotation, has the 3rd highest pts/40 min after Dority and Coleman *cough* ahead of Peters 17.8 to 15.6. 
--Highest true shooting % number on the team (67.7). 
--The only people averaging more PPWS (points per weighted shot) are Adekoya and Davidson, who don't really count at the moment.  Same for eFG%.

What do y'all have to put against those numbers?

Your 'feelings'?

Quote from: classof2014 on November 18, 2013, 02:11:12 PMIf it weren't for the 3 pointers the scoring numbers would be much lower than they are right now.

Isn't that like saying if it weren't for the extra points and FG's that place kickers wouldn't get many points. If it is a positive result then it works. I see where some could argue it isn't a positive result but I think it has been. Not by a lot but it is a positive.

Quote from: bbtds on November 18, 2013, 02:36:40 PMIsn't that like saying if it weren't for the extra points and FG's that place kickers wouldn't get many points.

or "if it weren't for John Wilkes Booth Lincoln would have loved that play"

I don't have numbers. However, future opponents will know how easy it is to defend him. Keep a body on him at the perimeter and double team when he attempts to drive.

Let me ask a question...is the starting lineup Bryce has put on the court the best 5 players valpo had? Are we starting with our best foot forward? Currently, I don't think we are. I understand Bobby is a senior but I think he would be a nice player to come off the bench. Make him earn his spot back. Maybe he has become complacent. I don't know but I believe enough fans are seeing the same thing to ask the question.

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I don't know that a starting lineup is supposed to be your 5 best players.

I think your starting lineup is your best UNIT.  And in that unit, Capo adds both size and outside shooting.

Let's take your example:  "keep a body on him at the perimeter and double team when he attempts to drive"

Even if that were all he did, he's doing this (at a MINIMUM):

--taking their second-tallest player out to the 3-point line, increasing space down low for our post and keeping his guy from optimal rebounding position.
OR
--catching them in a switch and ending up with a shorter guy to shoot over from deep.
AND
--drawing a double team means (providing he doesn't travel) someone will be open on the perimeter, and maybe two someones.

But all that is saying that if he were just a decoy.

I don't concede the point.  (And, given his injury problems, he's probably best going in at the start after warmups and stretching too.)

Even if you say "no your starters have to be your 5 best", he's clearly one of our 5 best players, and one of the 3-4 most effective, at this point. Numbers!

PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE YOU "FEEL" SOMETHING DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE

the reason our culture is going down the tubes is the ridiculous but popular idea "MY FEELINGS = TRUTH"

Quote from: truth219 on November 18, 2013, 03:17:01 PM
I don't have numbers. However, future opponents will know how easy it is to defend him. Keep a body on him at the perimeter and double team when he attempts to drive.

Let me ask a question...is the starting lineup Bryce has put on the court the best 5 players valpo had? Are we starting with our best foot forward? Currently, I don't think we are. I understand Bobby is a senior but I think he would be a nice player to come off the bench. Make him earn his spot back. Maybe he has become complacent. I don't know but I believe enough fans are seeing the same thing to ask the question.

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There's something to be said about the starting lineup configuration not being effective at this point. Not sure what it is, but Valpo has gotten off to a slow start in all 3 games, and even had some trouble getting going in two non-conference games. Not sure there's a better alternative than a Gueye, Capo, Peters front court with Dority and Coleman in the backcourt, but maybe having Capo come off the bench would send a message. I would suggest a smaller lineup with Gueye/Vashil, Peters, Coleman, Dority, and Williams to help with the tempo early in the game. Having Capo, Gueye/Vashil, and Peters on the court at the same time just makes the offense feel stuck in the mud. Defensively the "big" lineup almost seems counterproductive, especially when the opposing team can hit perimeter shots.

The most effective lineup yesterday (the one that was in there during the key run) was Dority, Yeo, Coleman, Peters and Gueye.  Would be interesting to see that as the starting five...

Quote from: vusupporter on November 18, 2013, 05:23:59 PM
The most effective lineup yesterday (the one that was in there during the key run) was Dority, Yeo, Coleman, Peters and Gueye.  Would be interesting to see that as the starting five...

Unfortunately, those five also were responsible for 14 turnovers, which led to a 25-13 edge for Ohio in points off turnovers and was the difference between a win and a loss.  :(

Quote from: a3uge on November 18, 2013, 05:15:13 PMThere's something to be said about the starting lineup configuration not being effective at this point.

I would agree with this.

Quote from: vusupporter on November 18, 2013, 05:23:59 PMThe most effective lineup yesterday (the one that was in there during the key run) was Dority, Yeo, Coleman, Peters and Gueye.

Yes about the TOs, but the flip side is that matchups are so key...it's not just about how your 5 work together, but how they work against the other 5.  So it's hard to say "that is the key" because it could just be the particular setting that's an issue.

I know plus/minus is an overrated stat in BB, but it'd be interesting to find it for us...anyone know a site?

this is why you love me i took the time to answer my own question:  statsheet, but only on individual players' pages. so i started to compile it and then thought...eh.  3 games...not a great idea of time.  later.

Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on November 18, 2013, 07:09:58 PMso i started to compile it and then thought...eh. 

I should be more like you. It saves you time for your daughter.

there are some TOs listed as "team".  maybe Sir TalksALot can shed some light on what the s'keeper were thinking.


Most of the time, those are Shot-Clock Violations.  and I believe they can occur on a stuck-ball-in-the-rim alternate possession situation, if the other team gets the ball.  Not sure about other alternate possession turnovers.

Quote from: talksalot on November 18, 2013, 08:49:56 PMalternate possession turnovers

Aren't those the desserts you have to give back because you have already had your fair share?   ::)

My quick answer is "no, because they are __________" but I have not come up with a snappy comeback, yet.... give me time.

Quote from: valpopal on November 14, 2013, 08:50:19 PM

Quote from: classof2014 on November 14, 2013, 07:47:18 PM

Quote from: truth219 on November 14, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
I think our starting lineup needs adjusted. If dority isn't a point guard, then why play him there.  Besides having a good shot, dority is average at every other aspect. Williams should start and bobby needs to be benched.

Agreed. Bobby, looks awful, I know he was injured but that doesn't account for the bonehead plays he's been making on the court. I'm not saying we win the Illinois game without Bobby but I think we would've had a much higher chance. Everyone else I've been pleased with. Bobby looks awful and had 5 of our 12 turnovers against Illinois, which is ridiculous in my opinion. I'd say move Peters to the 4. I know Moussa hasn't been anything special but he plays solid defense and so does Vashil, they take away their big man, Bobby has been a liability offensively and defensively and has always been in foul trouble.

So far the 2 biggest surprises has been the play of Lexus Williams and Jordan Coleman and the biggest disappointment has been Bobby. Perhaps benching him will wake him up cause he's done nothing so far this season other than make a few 3 pointers.

Okay, this is not going to be popular, but I am going to defend Bobby. The comments here are similar to ones posted last year even into the beginning of conference play. I just looked at the posts after the January Loyola loss, and the criticism of Bobby was the same. However, later in the season his play was praised, especially after the ejection at Detroit.

First of all, Bobby's play has not been as bad as stated. His field goal shooting is at 60%. His three-point shooting is at 83%. He is averaging 1 point for every 2 minutes of play. He has committed 8 turnovers in 3 games (2.6 avg.) He has committed 7 fouls in three games, an average a little more than 2. Admittedly, he doesn't exhibit the flow or stamina that he had at his peak last year, but he did get a slow start to the season because of his lingering leg injury and lack of practice time. Last year he also had a slow start due to his surgery.

In addition, he is playing a new position this year, which will require a different approach, a couple more outside shots, and probably result in fewer rebounds. As a forward rather than a center, he is up against quicker players, especially when the opposing team is Illinois. Therefore, I would expect more turnovers and fouls as a result. However, when we get to conference play, I also expect Bobby to be stronger, to be more in the flow, and to match up well in most games; therefore, his stats will improve.

On the board last year when there were similar complaints, I recommended patience with Bobby's progress, and he proved the wait was worth it. I will be patient again this year, and I hope he exhibits progress the way he did last year.

At this early stage (and I emphasize early) Bobby has the lowest plus/minus and Roland averages among the starters by a pretty significant margin:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=bobby-capobianco&p2=moussa-gueye&p3=alec-peters&p4=lavonte-dority&p5=jordan-coleman&p6 (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=bobby-capobianco&p2=moussa-gueye&p3=alec-peters&p4=lavonte-dority&p5=jordan-coleman&p6)

Roland avg. is a fairly telling number in terms of overall impact because it represents the difference between the team's plus/minus when the player is in the game vs. when he's not.  Bobby has the lowest, Alec has the highest (by far), and Jordan's is also very good (relatively speaking).  Again, I emphasize that this is based on a very small sample size and could look a lot different deeper into the season. One thing that this helps support for sure is that Alec Peters is off to a very good start as a Crusader.

plus they don't count NP, do they?  looked like 3 games when I glanced last night.

which reminds me, why wasn't NP an exhibition and one of the other games a real one?  why are we playing D3 teams and counting it?

Quote from: wh on November 19, 2013, 08:05:25 AM

Quote from: valpopal on November 14, 2013, 08:50:19 PM

Quote from: classof2014 on November 14, 2013, 07:47:18 PM

Quote from: truth219 on November 14, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
I think our starting lineup needs adjusted. If dority isn't a point guard, then why play him there.  Besides having a good shot, dority is average at every other aspect. Williams should start and bobby needs to be benched.

Agreed. Bobby, looks awful, I know he was injured but that doesn't account for the bonehead plays he's been making on the court. I'm not saying we win the Illinois game without Bobby but I think we would've had a much higher chance. Everyone else I've been pleased with. Bobby looks awful and had 5 of our 12 turnovers against Illinois, which is ridiculous in my opinion. I'd say move Peters to the 4. I know Moussa hasn't been anything special but he plays solid defense and so does Vashil, they take away their big man, Bobby has been a liability offensively and defensively and has always been in foul trouble.

So far the 2 biggest surprises has been the play of Lexus Williams and Jordan Coleman and the biggest disappointment has been Bobby. Perhaps benching him will wake him up cause he's done nothing so far this season other than make a few 3 pointers.

Okay, this is not going to be popular, but I am going to defend Bobby. The comments here are similar to ones posted last year even into the beginning of conference play. I just looked at the posts after the January Loyola loss, and the criticism of Bobby was the same. However, later in the season his play was praised, especially after the ejection at Detroit.

First of all, Bobby's play has not been as bad as stated. His field goal shooting is at 60%. His three-point shooting is at 83%. He is averaging 1 point for every 2 minutes of play. He has committed 8 turnovers in 3 games (2.6 avg.) He has committed 7 fouls in three games, an average a little more than 2. Admittedly, he doesn't exhibit the flow or stamina that he had at his peak last year, but he did get a slow start to the season because of his lingering leg injury and lack of practice time. Last year he also had a slow start due to his surgery.

In addition, he is playing a new position this year, which will require a different approach, a couple more outside shots, and probably result in fewer rebounds. As a forward rather than a center, he is up against quicker players, especially when the opposing team is Illinois. Therefore, I would expect more turnovers and fouls as a result. However, when we get to conference play, I also expect Bobby to be stronger, to be more in the flow, and to match up well in most games; therefore, his stats will improve.

On the board last year when there were similar complaints, I recommended patience with Bobby's progress, and he proved the wait was worth it. I will be patient again this year, and I hope he exhibits progress the way he did last year.

At this early stage (and I emphasize early) Bobby has the lowest plus/minus and Roland averages among the starters by a pretty significant margin:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=bobby-capobianco&p2=moussa-gueye&p3=alec-peters&p4=lavonte-dority&p5=jordan-coleman&p6 (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=bobby-capobianco&p2=moussa-gueye&p3=alec-peters&p4=lavonte-dority&p5=jordan-coleman&p6)

Roland avg. is a fairly telling number in terms of overall impact because it represents the difference between the team's plus/minus when the player is in the game vs. when he's not.  Bobby has the lowest, Alec has the highest (by far), and Jordan's is also very good (relatively speaking).  Again, I emphasize that this is based on a very small sample size and could look a lot different deeper into the season. One thing that this helps support for sure is that Alec Peters is off to a very good start as a Crusader.

The stat sheet also supports my point that exaggerated claims by some about Bobby's play have been wrong: Bobby has the best effective field goal percent, best true shooting percent, third highest points per 40, third highest offensive rating, fewest fouls per game among the starters, trails guards Coleman & Dority by only 0.25 in assists per game, he is second in assist percentage behind only Dority, etc.

We can agree on the need to create better flow for the team throughout the game, but to suggest the problem is Bobby's "horrible" play, that he has "done nothing" and "looks awful" as some have stated, is simply wrong. In addition, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bobby shuttled between forward and center, as in the Ohio game, more as conference play begins and Bryce tries the smaller lineup against those teams that do not have an Alec Brown, and when Carter is at point guard feeding the ball inside.

By the way, I pulled up Alec Brown's stats thus far, and Bobby's stats are far better. The supposed NBA prospect is 0-5 on 3-pointers, while Bobby is at 75% (6-8), Bobby's effective field goal percent is 67% while Brown's is at 32%, Brown's free throw percent is 0 (0-2), Bobby's points per 40 is 17.8 while Brown's is 11.4, (despite playing forward) Bobby trails Brown in rebounds per game by less than 1, etc.

I know, very early in the season and apples to oranges some might say, but who would have thought Bobby would be outperforming Alec Brown and there would be such strong complaints about Bobby's play.

Take away the game against North Park which is being counted in the stats as a regular game where he was 5-6 from the floor and 1-1 from 3.

He's 6-15 shooting (5-7) from 3. So far he's only made one two point shot. Right now he's shooting 71% from 3, which isn't gonna last. When he's gone up against D1 opponents this season he simply hasn't been that good. At this point in the season his starting job is on the hot seat. I think he should play more at the 5 instead of the 4. He doesn't have the speed or ball handling to be at the 4. So right now once Carter is eligible he's the one that loses his starting job.

When he's been on the floor the offense has seemed pretty stagnant. Right now the best lineup on the court seems to be Dority, Coleman, Yeo, Peters, Vashil/Moussa. I would like to see him get more time at the 5 when those 4 are on the court but overall he has done nothing to wow me. Everyone else has who came back from last year seemed to have made significant strides in their game, Bobby right now just doesn't look that good. I really hope he proves me wrong but right now the offense runs better with him on the bench.

I'm guessing some of it is Bobby in the 4 because he isn't a 4. He should be playing down in the post where he can use his size like he did last year.

Has anyone  else been let down by David Chadwick basically not having a role this year so far?

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Quote from: valpopal on November 19, 2013, 09:22:14 AMBy the way, I pulled up Alec Brown's stats thus far, and Bobby's stats are far better. The supposed NBA prospect is 0-5 on 3-pointers, while Bobby is at 75% (6-8), Bobby's effective field goal percent is 67% while Brown's is at 32%, Brown's free throw percent is 0 (0-2), Bobby's points per 40 is 17.8 while Brown's is 11.4, (despite playing forward) Bobby trails Brown in rebounds per game by less than 1, etc.

I think the color guy on the Wisconsin at Green Bay game said it best when he said "Boy, it's been a lost night for Alec Brown."

This is what I think is really going on with Bobby.  He has never thought of himself as a 5. He played it most of the time last year but you could see, especially at the beginning of the year, that he really had not taken to the position.  He did play the 5 better as the year went on but was never a KVW.  He truly thinks of himself as a 4 and the addition of Moussa has allowed him to play outside face to the basket.  He is a good shooter but rather sloppy in the ball handling skills.  What surprises me a little is that BOTH Bobby and Moussa want to face the basket! How many times Sunday did you see Moussa receive the ball... hesitate... face up... try to make a move or pivot into the defensive pressure and be unsuccessful.  What KVW had in the post was not the result of being really big or athletic it was an attitude, energy and work ethic.  It is not easy to say to yourself, I am going to battle for position on every possession, I am going to post and re-post as often as it takes to get my man in a favorable position and because I have worked so hard to get my man in that position when I receive the entry pass I will be able to make a decisive move in a split second with no hesitation.  I did not see one post entry where the 5 took an immediate drop step and put the ball up off glass even though there were several opportunities to do so. Every post move took too long and down in the post time is the enemy.

Quote from: FWalum on November 19, 2013, 11:37:12 AM
This is what I think is really going on with Bobby.  He has never thought of himself as a 5. He played it most of the time last year but you could see, especially at the beginning of the year, that he really had not taken to the position.  He did play the 5 better as the year went on but was never a KVW.  He truly thinks of himself as a 4 and the addition of Moussa has allowed him to play outside face to the basket.  He is a good shooter but rather sloppy in the ball handling skills.  What surprises me a little is that BOTH Bobby and Moussa want to face the basket! How many times Sunday did you see Moussa receive the ball... hesitate... face up... try to make a move or pivot into the defensive pressure and be unsuccessful.  What KVW had in the post was not the result of being really big or athletic it was an attitude, energy and work ethic.  It is not easy to say to yourself, I am going to battle for position on every possession, I am going to post and re-post as often as it takes to get my man in a favorable position and because I have worked so hard to get my man in that position when I receive the entry pass I will be able to make a decisive move in a split second with no hesitation.  I did not see one post entry where the 5 took an immediate drop step and put the ball up off glass even though there were several opportunities to do so. Every post move took too long and down in the post time is the enemy.

I've been fumbling this around over and over in my mind, trying to figure out how our low post players are getting so easily neutralized despite a clear size/strength advantage. You just cleared it up for me in one insightful paragraph.  Great post!

Quote from: bbtds on November 19, 2013, 11:07:12 AM

Quote from: valpopal on November 19, 2013, 09:22:14 AMBy the way, I pulled up Alec Brown's stats thus far, and Bobby's stats are far better. The supposed NBA prospect is 0-5 on 3-pointers, while Bobby is at 75% (6-8), Bobby's effective field goal percent is 67% while Brown's is at 32%, Brown's free throw percent is 0 (0-2), Bobby's points per 40 is 17.8 while Brown's is 11.4, (despite playing forward) Bobby trails Brown in rebounds per game by less than 1, etc.

I think the color guy on the Wisconsin at Green Bay game said it best when he said "Boy, it's been a lost night for Alec Brown."

Yeah, Wisconsin just eliminated him from the game, allowing him to score 2 points and get 1 rebound in 18 minutes before fouling out.  Sykes on the other hand had 32 points and almost carried GB to a big upset.

Quote from: wh on November 19, 2013, 01:55:56 PM

Quote from: FWalum on November 19, 2013, 11:37:12 AM
This is what I think is really going on with Bobby.  He has never thought of himself as a 5. He played it most of the time last year but you could see, especially at the beginning of the year, that he really had not taken to the position.  He did play the 5 better as the year went on but was never a KVW.  He truly thinks of himself as a 4 and the addition of Moussa has allowed him to play outside face to the basket.  He is a good shooter but rather sloppy in the ball handling skills.  What surprises me a little is that BOTH Bobby and Moussa want to face the basket! How many times Sunday did you see Moussa receive the ball... hesitate... face up... try to make a move or pivot into the defensive pressure and be unsuccessful.  What KVW had in the post was not the result of being really big or athletic it was an attitude, energy and work ethic.  It is not easy to say to yourself, I am going to battle for position on every possession, I am going to post and re-post as often as it takes to get my man in a favorable position and because I have worked so hard to get my man in that position when I receive the entry pass I will be able to make a decisive move in a split second with no hesitation.  I did not see one post entry where the 5 took an immediate drop step and put the ball up off glass even though there were several opportunities to do so. Every post move took too long and down in the post time is the enemy.

I've been fumbling this around over and over in my mind, trying to figure out how our low post players are getting so easily neutralized despite a clear size/strength advantage. Then you come along and clear it up for me in one concise, insightful paragraph.  Great post!

Speed. They get striped of the ball by quicker hands. It happened over and over during the Ohio game. It happened a lot to Gueye and Capo. But it also happened to Peters and Williams too, which should not happen.

Quote from: FWalum on November 19, 2013, 11:37:12 AMWhat surprises me a little is that BOTH Bobby and Moussa want to face the basket!

I think that is the natural order of things for the workings of the human mind. From both working with kids and having been used a bit as a back up post it always seemed like the face the basket moves were easier to teach and to learn. With your back to the bucket your senses can only tell you so much and to a degree you have to trust both your instincts and your previous experiences in similar situations. Most good post players have to put a lot of work into it.

Maybe this is another one of those left brain right brain issues and a surgical brain mirror insert could cure everything! I should put Dr. Ducky to work on this immediately before all these big guys graduate!  ::)

Quote from: justducky on November 19, 2013, 04:50:16 PM

Quote from: FWalum on November 19, 2013, 11:37:12 AMWhat surprises me a little is that BOTH Bobby and Moussa want to face the basket!

I think that is the natural order of things for the workings of the human mind. From both working with kids and having been used a bit as a back up post it always seemed like the face the basket moves were easier to teach and to learn. With your back to the bucket your senses can only tell you so much and to a degree you have to trust both your instincts and your previous experiences in similar situations. Most good post players have to put a lot of work into it.

Maybe this is another one of those left brain right brain issues and a surgical brain mirror insert could cure everything! I should put Dr. Ducky to work on this immediately before all these big guys graduate!  ::)

From the Illinois and Murray State game, whenever Gueye tried to post down low, he'd get pushed around quite a bit. A man of that size should not be moved around that easily. KVW was much smaller and had a bad back, but was able to be more effective down low than Gueye and Capo combined. As FW said, it's about attitude, energy and work ethic and not size at this point.

One thing Fernandez does that we haven't seen from a valpo player in a while is dunk in the post. If he gets any room, he crams it. Which is nice because I hate seeing a missed bunny. I'm not saying moose can't, but Fernandez can jump. Bobby on the other hand botched a wide open dunk vs Murray state only thing that saved him was that he got fouled.

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Vashil is also working on a hook shot, which we probably haven't seen since Ivan Vucic??

I wouldn't be surprised if Vashil takes over the starting role at the 5 this season. He is 10 times better than he was last year, in control, slams it home with authority, and his free throw shooting has been spot on.

Would love to see the Jamaican Jammer jam home a few against Evansville like he did against MSU.

Jamaican jammer jam I like it

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Vashil still has too many problems defensively to get more minutes than Gueye. Vashil needs to learn how to use his length to his advantage under the basket. He seems to swat at the ball too much instead of going straight up. This can lead to fouls from his out of control arms. You'll see conference foes take advantage of this if he continues this bad habit. I can't really see a difference offensively at this point. Both have brick hands to catch a designed pass down low and both struggle at positioning to score putbacks or offensive rebounds.

But Vashil should get a lot of minutes this year because he's going to be the only true center next year, unless Bryce brings in another 7ft project.

Quote from: truth219 on November 19, 2013, 06:23:40 PMJamaican jammer jam I like it

I can hear the call now: "and Vashil throws down another triple J, with authority!"

Quote from: covufan on November 19, 2013, 07:02:59 PM

Quote from: truth219 on November 19, 2013, 06:23:40 PMJamaican jammer jam I like it

I can hear the call now: "and Vashil throws down another triple J, with authority!"

And the sponsor tie in:  When Vashil throws down a triple J in a Valpo home game, (pick a NW IN Jam company, I found Anderson's) will sell a jam for $1 off the regular price the next day!

yeah, the prob for Vashil is that his skill set--energy, enthusiasm, raw athleticism--plays much better in a sub setting than starter.

Anyone remember Jerome Williams (G'town/Raptors/Pistons)?  That's who I think of.

My opinion, everyone on the roster tall than 6'9" is of average to sub par overall talent. I think its unlikely any of them will be player of the week. However, considering how vashil improved over the off season and is the superior talent...he should start and get the most minutes

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What games this season did vashil start and what stats do you have to prove Your Feelings= Truth

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Starts = None, so the coaches agree with me.

POINT MOI

As for stats, how about 2.5 blocks per game for Moussa? 

Further, how about these?
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/valparaiso/vashil-fernandez (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/valparaiso/vashil-fernandez)
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/valparaiso/moussa-gueye (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/valparaiso/moussa-gueye)

Here's a ball more suitable for your "feelingsball".
(http://www.childswork.com/images/P/1514.jpg)

Moose is a good defensive center there is no doubt about that

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and we agree on that, dude. 

maybe what they're thinking, is if they put an offensive-minded guy at the 5--pretty much all the other starters are, or can be, scorers.  and as they say, there's only one ball.  he's not going to demand touches.

Moussa is like the basketball equivalent of
(http://mgoblog.com/sites/mgoblog.com/files/images/2012-Recruiting-Ben-Braden_1482C/11290091.jpg)
so when Vashil comes in--he can bring more offense to the second unit.

Vashil has an awesome shimmy before each FT that seems to focus his shot.  Whatever works big man!

Reminds me of jack parkman in Major League 2

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