1:30 tipoff this afternoon over on ESPN3, it will be Keith Carter's first game against a D1 opponent for Valpo. UCF is coming in on a 4 game win streak, including a 86-58 win last night over Rio Grande, so it will be a quick turnaround for both teams.
Yeh, but... look at the schools included in that 4-game win streak. One nice win against Miami... that's all folks!
12-03 at Florida Atlantic 2-9 (0-0) 297 64-75 L
12-07 Stetson 2-10 (0-0) 350 77-58 W
12-11 Howard 1-12 (1-1) 342 79-64 W
12-17 Jacksonville 1-7 (0-0) 340 104-64 W
that's 3 of the bottom 11 teams in the country with a combined 4-29, and if you throw in the FAU game, 6-38. I'm not sure the knights will win any games in their conference.... Valpo by 10.
With the addition of KC, I think we simply have too many weapons at too many positions. Plus, we played on their court and shot extremely well from the perimeter less than 24 hours ago. We should feel right "at home" from the opening tip.
VU 81 UCF 74
Getting blown out, 38-20. Carter: 11 minutes, 1 point, 0-5 FGA.
Paul
Yikes! Aside from Yeo and Vashil, they look like a tired high school team today. Might actually lose to a good high school team. The Freshmen should just finish it out.
Give Carter a couple of games to get in shape, and he'll become the top guy. He's more talented than anyone Valpo has. Had he stayed at SLU, he'd be their top player.
Sorry - got to keep my expectations grounded on Carter...
As for this game We looked horrible in the first half. (Not much better to start the second half)
Here in Orlando and was going to the game but a nieces Christmas production ran way long. I would have had to miss the family lunch so the game was put on the back burner. Turned on the last 46 seconds of the first half and am glad I decided to stay with the family.
Painful to watch....
Saying Carter is the best player on our team is a little ridiculous at this point.
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75-43 right now...worst performance in many years...
Paul
Okay Carter will be the best player on the team. Maybe hes not right now but he will be, He is basically a freshman who hasn't played in over a year. He has barely any experience with 6 games? Give him time. HE NEEDS PATIENCE! I didn't see you guys complaining when he had a 8 point 5 ast 3 reb game last night. Everyone has bad games.
I have to say that was the worst performance by our men's team I have ever seen in my 14-15 years of following Valpo. At least when we lost by this amount in the past, it was against a ranked team in the top 10, not to UCF. Against Evansville, we made it close towards the end, but this was just painful to watch all game. The guys basically just shrugged their shoulders, and showed absolutely no passion to reverse course. Stupid fouls beyond the 3-pt line, I counted 7 of them, 3 by Carter. Quick triggers in the shot clock in 3 straight possessions in the first half when it was still somewhat close, and all 3 basically hit the backboard, no rim. I was not impressed with Carter at all, so hopefully it gets better for him. He was jumping way too often before he knew where he was throwing it, which I will call Kenney-itis. Hopefully it is a mild case of it, and goes away quickly. Absolute sh!t performance from the guys, never been more ticked after watching us play. Seems to be a common thread for me this year with this team, so maybe I should just stop watching for awhile :).
Every year I wonder when the team will hit its low point of the season. I am hoping (pretty certain) this game was it. The "dreadful game" out of nowhere happens each season, and I can't see the team playing worse than they did today.
Last season, the low point came in the Loyola game on January 2, the first conference game. I just checked the forum thread for that game, and the team was savaged by comments suggesting they were mediocre at best and predicting a middle of the pack conference finish. Some members stated the game proved that team wasn't anything special, and they gave up hope for a chance at the championship.
However, the game proved to be the turning point that led to a great run to the championship. I am hoping the same occurs this season, and I am just thankful this wasn't a conference game like the Loyola game.
The excuse machine on this board for Carter is already up and running....
Paul
The sky is NOT falling. I think we all know a bad game and an awesome game can happen. I would say on this day UCF was a step - no - 4 steps ahead of us.... As for all the carter talk, he is not why we lost. I just like to keep my expectations in check - too many times everyone talks like some new player will make us unbeatable. Carter will be good but I am not sure I see the quickness and the basketball IQ that everyone was talking about
We came to play one team and a different team showed up. Not sure we came to win at all costs - team seemed to just look like they were going through the motions and we are yet to find that spark off the bench.
That was a whoopin! Too much time in the hit tub Saturday night me thinks.
Quote from: HC on December 22, 2013, 05:32:03 PMToo much time in the hit tub
...with Timbaland, Pete Rose, and Ike Turner, apparently
Quote from: 78crusader on December 22, 2013, 03:45:50 PMThe excuse machine on this board for Carter is already up and running....
...really? Really?
You're everything that's wrong with HOT SPROTZ TAKES in America today if you're going to write this kid off based on two games--his first live rounds in over a year--off of just his fifth game ever post-HS.
Why don't you do us a favor and pick a player who actually does suit you:
Player A 5 gp 17 mpg 8-18 FG (44.4%) 5-7 3PT (71.4%) 1.8 rpg 2.4 apg 4.6 ppg
Player B 5 gp 14.6mpg 9-18 FG (50%) 6-14 3PT(42.8%) 1.8 rpg 1.2 apg 5.2 ppg
Player C 5 gp 24.8mpg 23-54 FG (42.6%) 6-15 3PT(40%) 2.2 rpg 2.4 apg 13.6 ppg
Seems pretty obvious, right? A&B are basically interchangeable, if not identical, and Player C, well, he is just a STRAIGHT SHOOTER with upper-management potential written ALL OVER HIM.
These are the stats from the first five games of Keith Carter's college career (Player A) and Ryan Broekhoff (Player B). Should've written THAT guy off too, huh? The Rowdy excuse train was just pulling out of Melbourne station then!
Oh, and Player C was Tony Falu's first 5 games at VU, btw.
I hate that I had to spend all this time looking it up and calculating to prove a point.
But consider it proven: drawing conclusions about someone based on the first 5 games of their career is not helpful. Draw them later. Not only is it fairer to the object in your crosshairs, it's more accurate and therefore it looks better for you.
The wisdom of Solon, paraphrased for a new, less-patient millennium: "Count no man good before he matriculates."
Quote from: Smj on December 22, 2013, 04:21:05 PMWe came to play one team and a different team showed up.
Obviously having 3 weeks to study and reengineer your attack on our zone has its advantages, and obviously when we are outplayed in every aspect of the game the result is not going to be pretty.
I do suspect that Carters insertion may have caused some offensive flow problems but since that was unavoidable and should work itself out over time I am going to limit my comments to the defensive end. UCF did a great job of picking the zone apart and an even better job of hitting those open looks. Bryce was not happy with our zone play but stubbornly stuck with it almost all the way with changes in personal being his only adjustment. So as an open question what did that lack of an adjustment tell the team and the fan base?
Does Bryce think that the zone (when properly played) is all we need for Horizon League title contention? Do you? Does Bryce think that he doesn't have the speed, athleticism or maturity for more man to man? Do you? What was Bryce trying to accomplish by sticking to something that wasn't working?
Your argument goes both ways--someone playing in their "5th-ever post HS game" should not have been touted on this board as a sure-fire difference maker.
Paul
Quote from: Smj on December 22, 2013, 02:34:53 PMSorry - got to keep my expectations grounded on Carter...
Probably the smartest comment made in this thread.
BTW, Apostle, 78 never said he wasn't expecting great things from Keith Carter. He said posters were making up excuses for Carter after talking him up way too much. I remember many saying that with Carter we would have won close games we had lost. There never seemed to be an acknowledgement that it was going to take Carter time to break in and work his way up to playing great.
In my opinion it was the poor shooting and tough breaks that stopped Alec Peters from doing almost anything positive that made the Crusaders suck this afternoon. Alec was totally frustrated and couldn't turn it around as he did at Evansville.
Wow! Hope nobody breaks an ankle jumping off the bandwagon. It was a terrible performance and no doubt individual stats etc were made worse by the overall team shooting. You know, if we aren't down a consistent 20-30 because we are hitting our shots, guys don't need to try to force things and turn the ball over.
I think the announcers were on to something when they said that coaches across the board hate the last game before Christmas break as the kids lose focus. Clearly that happened to Valpo today while UCF had the advantage of not focusing on "getting" home to friends and family as they were obviously already sleeping in their own beds.
We'll be fine.
Quote from: 78crusader on December 22, 2013, 06:27:46 PMYour argument goes both ways--someone playing in their "5th-ever post HS game" should not have been touted on this board as a sure-fire difference maker.
how many other people made their VU --and college-- debut midseason? it's like jumping on the merry-go-round once it's been running for 13 games. and there have been plenty of people touted as 'sure-fire difference maker's.
Quote from: historyman on December 22, 2013, 06:36:44 PMThere never seemed to be an acknowledgement that it was going to take Carter time to break in and work his way up to playing great.
are you even reading the same board I'm reading?
Quote from: justducky on December 16, 2013, 03:59:42 PMAbove all lets remember that LaVonte was not an instant sensation and that Keith may require just as much patience.
Quote from: chipper955 on December 16, 2013, 06:47:10 PMI'm going to keep my expectations down about Keith.
Quote from: valporun on September 19, 2013, 10:42:37 AMI mean we know what Carter did against us at St. Louis last season, but what will he be like after a year away from game action?
Quote from: valpotx on December 14, 2013, 03:27:22 PMIs Carter really this good? I am trying to temper my excitement until I see him play.
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 04, 2013, 12:49:19 PMWe all think that the team will improve even more when Carter is eligible, but while I hope that is true it is more likely that it will take time for him to fit in on the floor.
Zone is the way to go most of the time for Valpo. Have you sen some of these guys try to defend man to man? Peters doesn't play defense when they've gone man, none of our bigs can guard a guy outside the paint, and outside Lexus (and maybe Carter, whom I haven't seen yet) I don't think our guards are quick enough/have the desire to stay in front of the opposing point guard. I think our zone can be more effective, I'd like to see them go back to doubling with 2 bigs like they did last year.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on December 22, 2013, 07:41:18 PMQuote from: historyman on Today at 06:36:44 PM There never seemed to be an acknowledgement that it was going to take Carter time to break in and work his way up to playing great. are you even reading the same board I'm reading? Quote from: justducky on December 16, 2013, 03:59:42 PM Above all lets remember that LaVonte was not an instant sensation and that Keith may require just as much patience. Quote from: chipper955 on December 16, 2013, 06:47:10 PM I'm going to keep my expectations down about Keith. Quote from: valporun on September 19, 2013, 10:42:37 AM I mean we know what Carter did against us at St. Louis last season, but what will he be like after a year away from game action? Quote from: valpotx on December 14, 2013, 03:27:22 PM Is Carter really this good? I am trying to temper my excitement until I see him play. Quote from: vu84v2 on December 04, 2013, 12:49:19 PM We all think that the team will improve even more when Carter is eligible, but while I hope that is true it is more likely that it will take time for him to fit in on the floor.
Quote from: atkins on March 22, 2013, 08:38:13 PMCarter is a more-complete guard than any we had on the court this year.
Quote from: FWalum on December 08, 2013, 01:00:21 AMDo we need Keith Carter to be a savior? I don't think so, but if he can give us a couple more assists and say... an additional 4 points per game then this team probably would have lost just one or two games.
Quote from: wh on December 07, 2013, 11:53:07 PMSt. Louis was picked to finish 2nd in the A-10 behind VCU. They have WAY more experienced players than we do, and yet we took them to the wire. Throw Keith Carter into the mix, and there's no doubt we win this game.
Quote from: classof2014 on November 30, 2013, 10:14:03 AMKeith - Amazing to think that he might be the best player on this team, possibly the HL, and we're playing like this. Can't imagine how good we'll be with him. Excited to see him in a few weeks for the first time. He's the factor that might put us over the edge into a great team.
Quote from: classof2014 on November 20, 2013, 10:54:46 PMThe silver lining is that we are doing this all without a true PG, and KC might be our best player once eligible.
Quote from: ARCInsider on November 20, 2013, 10:13:48 PMDon't be crazy. Look, we have had some struggles at times....are you really surprised by that, given all the new faces in the rotation? That said, we don't have a bad loss and we have been resilient. Keith Carter is going to push this team over the top.
That's not how arguing works.
You didn't say "a lot of people talked him up" and I disagreed. Thus, your quoting people who praised him doesn't prove anything, nor does it win you any points.
Clearly a lot of people were and are excited, and not just us on the board--people close to the program, like Paul Oren, who I believe has called him the best player we have while observing scrimmages this past summer--although I can't find that source right now; Todd Ickow has said similar things. ("If your expectations are down for Carter, then trust me, he'll play well beyond your expectations. He's a very special talent.")
You said "there never seemed to be an acknowledgement [sic] that it was going to take Carter time to break in and work his way up to playing great."
You said never, so I disproved it with 5 easy examples.
(none of whom, by the way, were Paul. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, Paul, since you talk crap about pretty much everyone, but you never sounded a cautionary note about KC, did you, although you couldn't WAIT to berate everyone who believes he'll be something.)
Anyway, the best part of all of this is the posts you for some reason thought it necessary to quote also prove my point:
--You quoted FWAlum saying 'we don't need him to be a savior', and said he was asking for 4 ppg and 2 apg to be a difference maker. Those are Marko Punda stats. So he was hardly overhyping.
--classof2014, whom you quote twice, uses the subjunctive both times: "might be our best", "might put us over the edge".
--So two DID use the indicative mood: ARCInsider: "Keith Carter is going to push this team over the top", and atkins, "Carter is a more-complete guard than any we had...this year". The former remains to be seen, and the second is probably already true.
If y'all feel comfortable relegating the guy Rick Majerus compared to Andre Miller to, I don't know, Jarryd Loyd status after two games in 20 hours with new teammates, one against a great HS team and the other against a good majorish conference team...then sorry. This is the "fan zone forum" not the "negative nabobs' nincompoopery".
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on December 22, 2013, 09:14:14 PMIf y'all feel comfortable relegating the guy Rick Majerus compared to Andre Miller to, I don't know, Jarryd Loyd status after two games in 20 hours with new teammates, one against a great HS team and the other against a good majorish conference team...then sorry. This is the "fan zone forum" not the "negative nabobs' nincompoopery".
At the risk of getting in the middle of an ongoing and competitive pissin match let me say that if Carter can walk right in and play at a Jarryd Loyd (upperclassman) level , I will in no way be disappointed. As I suggested in an earlier post maybe bringing Carter off the bench could have removed some of the expectation burden and provided a spark from the bench that a Coleman, Yeo, Capo or Williams are incapable of delivering. Loyd played his best basketball as a senior 6th man after starting much of his earlier career.
Is it possible that the combination of watching Keith do so much in practice and beating UCF so convincingly last month left the entire team with no realistic concept of the level of effort that would be required today? Overconfidence happens then somebody slaps you with a reality check. In fact our best offensive game of season still might have fallen short today without some significant improvement from the defense.
I don't think you meant to put your words in my mouth :)
When you lose by 30, there's no point in singling out one player, especially one playing his first D1 game in over a year.
I think what would bear more scrutiny, as delineated earlier, are Bryce's coaching decisions. Knights were ready with an ambush, and he seems to have gotten outcoached.
It would be interesting to see how he has fared in rematches with the same team in the same season. Obviously almost all of those are conference games where the home-and-home skews results, but it might be revealing.
Looking at the box score, I would say Keith had a much better game then our All Freshman Alec. Keith goes for 6 pts on 2 of 9 shooting, 3 rebounds, 4 assts and a steal on only 1 turnover, while Alec goes for 3 points on 1 of 8 shooting, 5 rebounds (he is taller), 0 assts, 0 steals and 6 turnovers (his turnovers have been an issue).
So, is anyone ready to throw Alec under the expectation bus? I don't think so.
I think a few people need to sit back and relax a little. Remember, Alec and the rest of the freshmen are FRESHMAN! Keith basically played in his first collegiate game! I believe we have only 4 people who even played college ball last year. This is what happens to a young team...up and down. Has anyone seen Indiana play? We will have many more good performances than bad ones. However we will still have a "bummer" now and then. In addition to our youth, the UCF game was the dreaded last game before the Christmas break. Again, relax and enjoy the Holidays as we look forward to the HL season and a New Year.
We are now 0-4 in D-1 games in which we took more than 20 3-point shots. We took 28 yesterday, a crazy number for a team with our size and penetrating ability. How crazy? We have taken 28 or more only 5 times in the past 5 seasons (149 games).
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on December 22, 2013, 09:14:14 PM
--So two DID use the indicative mood: ARCInsider: "Keith Carter is going to push this team over the top", and atkins, "Carter is a more-complete guard than any we had...this year". The former remains to be seen, and the second is probably already true.
Just to clarify...I believed Keith was the extra piece needed for us to win the HL. But now I have been set straight by 78 and truth---Keith is horrible. I've seen all I need to see.
Quote from: ARCInsider on December 23, 2013, 02:32:55 PMKeith is horrible. I've seen all I need to see.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2280609536/h0746BDA3/)
LaPorte...you of all people should have known I was trolling.
And that is exactly why I posted an awesome pic.
I watched the UCF game and thought the entire team came out flat and stayed that way. As many have pointed out, it may be a case of the final game before Christmas blues. On the bright side, non-conference games really don't matter for any Horizon team at this point ... from here on out, the focus is to win league games for seeding purposes and hope to play well during the HL tourney.
As for Carter, he really didn't do much to impress. But since chef said he was a "unique talent" and pgmado voted him 2nd team all-league (while saying who could be 1st team), I'm willing to give him some time to adjust to DI basketball. Those two guys know way more about Valpo basketball than I do and have access to inside info, so I'm willing to trust their opinions over those of people judging Carter based on his performance in one game.
I just don't get you man. You post so much sarcastic/mocking stuff, then you pull out the above, which is a realistic post. I guess that your role is to be an enigma?
Agree with Eddie, the whole team played poor. I was at the game. I watch almost every Valpo bball game via the internet. I had free tickets and saw an ice storm was heading my way so I thought go to Orlando and watching the game in person was the way to go.
I didn't understand the technical before the game that gave us two free throws. Anyone know what I'm talking about or can tell me what was up with that? It was our only lead.
The Game was a stinker! Take a break buy your wife, dog or cat something nice, enjoy a walk or ski enjoy the season. The game is just a game, young college Basketball players will have good days and bad days, they will grow. Now the the Fans? Marry Christmas!!!!! :)
Quote from: oklahomamick on December 24, 2013, 12:51:39 PM
Agree with Eddie, the whole team played poor. I was at the game. I watch almost every Valpo bball game via the internet. I had free tickets and saw an ice storm was heading my way so I thought go to Orlando and watching the game in person was the way to go.
I didn't understand the technical before the game that gave us two free throws. Anyone know what I'm talking about or can tell me what was up with that? It was our only lead.
They said it was because UCF dunked during warm-ups. I didn't know that was a rule.
As I recall when the NCAA rescinded the rule against dunking in games, they retained the prohibition against dunking in warm-ups. Over the past few years I have seen players come mighty close to doing what could be considered a dunk before the game. This is the first time I can recall that a penalty was assessed.
They can dunk before the referees "take administration of the court" which is about 18-20 minutes left on the count down clock before the game. When they come out on the court to watch the warm-ups... they have a few tasks. 1. Count the players (to make sure the right number of players are in the book). 2 check for illegal uniforms (t-shirts have to match the uniform) 3. meet with the captains 4. CHECK THE BALL! (ok, sometimes they forget to do that) 5. make sure that after the 10:00 minute mark, the starting rosters are in the book (you'll see Luke Gore put in the lineups about 12:00) and 6. Watch for Dunking (they also are there to keep the peace / no taunting, etc).
The Clock Operators and official scorer meet with the officials about an hour before tip to go over timing issues and TV coverage, etc.
Generally (like the Washington Generally's), the teams will come out and just do a shootaround, get loose... and will leave the court with about 30 minutes on the clock. They will return in uniform between 22:00 and 24:00 and that's generally when they are told to stop dunking...since they don't know when the ref's will appear. They teams will leave the court about the 10:00 minute mark; and return with about 4 minutes to go. The refs leave the court during this 6 minute period to get rid of their jackets. I'm not sure when the Knight player did his dunking.
That's pretty odd in that the no dunking in warmups goes back to when it was prohibited in games. Don't know all the history but it does bring up a very funny Homerism.
So Homer is coaching his first game and two of his kids get caught dunking in the pregame and his team opponent is given free throws. While is the locker room just prior to the game, and with the knowledge of the situation, his players are mortified, heads hanging etc. So, Homer walks in, looks at the kids in question, and says, "that's OK, I'm just glad to know some of our players can dunk"! His team went on to a very comfortable victory.
What I remember from the 70's is that game dunking was not allowed, but it was allowed in the pre-game warm-ups.
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Quote from: covufan on December 25, 2013, 12:55:59 AM
What I remember from the 70's is that game dunking was not allowed, but it was allowed in the pre-game warm-ups.
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:D
Concur
An interesting history of the dunking rules for your holiday reading...
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2007/Association-wide/chronicle%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bjam%2B-%2B07-30-07%2Bncaa%2Bnews.html (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2007/Association-wide/chronicle%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bjam%2B-%2B07-30-07%2Bncaa%2Bnews.html)
My memory of the rule was correct, but the rationale I always believed ws in error.
I finally made time to watch the UCF game. We were slow, sluggish, and frustrating as a team. One major mistake we had was failing to communicate on defense. Never a true switch or fast move to follow the ball to make the weak side into the help side to stop the Knights's drive to the rim. Also, why were we playing a perimeter trap with our zone from 40 feet from the basket, and the rest of our zone collapsing on the free throw line to open up the lobs over top?
In terms of Keith Carter, he still has a lot of cobwebs going in game. Don't forget, game action is a lot different than many days of practicing at the ARC. These guys need to get used to Keith at games, not always easy to do in a first game against non-D1 opponen, and then game 2 being a rematch from about a month ago. Keith needs tomorrow's game to show that he's getting game legs, and the others need to shake off our bad pre-Christmas game.
What happens if Carter has a great game tomorrow? Is someone going to call out those who said we shouldn't expect a big contribution right away? This discussion is silly.
Ok, you idiots who talked up Carter really have some explaining to do.
:/
Clearly, we were putting the Carter before the H-O-R-S-E.
(And then he put it on tonight.)