Will the asinine "Spence" bill hurt Valpo's recruiting efforts? Will there be a campus protest march? Let me know as I would like to join the enlighten few from ole VU.
Judging by your grammar and spelling, you sure are one of the "enlighten". Tell me more about your tolerance for these "regilious" types.
I'd say given the makeup of our team, it can only help keep people like Bryce and the good kids he recruits here.
On a national level, Pence is looking very Bachmann-esque, and that is not good.
Besides assaulting my senses and my understanding of freedom of religion, speech and equal protection under the law taught to me by Dr. Willis Boyd at good old VU, the law is so poorly written that it affirms my stereotypic categorization of the stupidity of politicians and lawyers.
So I walk into Bubba's (__insert a religion of choice here__) House of Wings with a guy I have been best friends with my whole life. We both have families and grandkids. We haven't seen each other in a decade. We engage in a manly embrace just outside the establishment (guys do this all the time, right) and we walk in with our arms around each other at the hip. Bubba the owner, working the host podium and having seen the aforementioned contact and witnessing us entering his establishment, assumes we are a gay couple and turns us away on the grounds that his "religion" views our homosexual activity as sin.
Bubba, without any proof or evidence other than his perceptions clouded by whatever, has become the sole determiner as to my sexual preferences. And that arbitrary and baseless decision is protected by the State of Indiana in denying me services to which I, by law, am entitled. On the other hand, because he has chosen to be in a business that serves the "public," he is prohibited, by law, from denying services to anyone who is not the same color, religion, gender, age, race, ethnic background, citizenship, height, weight, or has disabilities or does not conform to the same economic strata -- regardless of what his "religion" considers sinful. Oh, and by the way, it's possible that Bubba is the pastor of the Church of What's Happing Now and he and his family are the only ones in the congregation.
I can't wait for the first challenge. The US Supreme Court will have a field day. The title of the bill is a blatant euphemism for the legalization of discrimination against the LGBT community. It has no place in this country.
http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/readers/2015/03/07/indiana-needs-religious-freedom-legislation/24477303/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/readers/2015/03/07/indiana-needs-religious-freedom-legislation/24477303/)
President Heckler's statement:
http://www.valpo.edu/news/2015/03/30/president-heckler-issues-statement-on-indianas-religious-freedom-restoration-act/ (http://www.valpo.edu/news/2015/03/30/president-heckler-issues-statement-on-indianas-religious-freedom-restoration-act/)
LPAP - I have no idea what that statement was supposed to mean.
I cannot speak highly enough of the statement by President Heckler. Indiana's law and Governor Pence's subsequent comments are disgraceful.
As a lawyer, I thought I might try something really unusual and actually read the law and compare it to its federal counterpart, rather than rely on subjective reports from the media.
The federal law: "Government may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest."
Here's the language of the Indiana law: "A governmental entity may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if the governmental entity demonstrates that application of the burden to the person: (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest."
Um. Nearly identical. The federal statute was passed in 1993 and was signed into law by President Clinton. 19 other states have passed identical laws, and President Obama supported just such a law when he was a state senator in Illinois.
Paul
These 19 States Have Religious Freedom Laws Similar to Indiana's
http://dailysignal.com/2015/03/31/these-19-states-have-religious-freedom-laws-similar-to-indianas-heres-what-that-means/ (http://dailysignal.com/2015/03/31/these-19-states-have-religious-freedom-laws-similar-to-indianas-heres-what-that-means/)
This is nothing new. Anyone who knows anything about the background understands the reason for it. It stems from incidents in other states where in 1 case a professional photographer was forced by the state to take pictures at a gay wedding after he objected on the basis of his religion teaching that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman. A baker was fined and run out of business because she refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding on the same grounds.
It's no different than a kosher Deli refusing to serve pork on religious grounds. Or, a gay baker refusing to bake a cake for an anti-gay rally, or a veteran refusing to bake a cake for a party at the Westboro Baptist Church. This is just another dose of in your face hatred being spewed by perpetually offended, venomous activists from the homosexual community, who are out to destroy anyone who doesn't fully embrace that lifestyle (showing tolerance is never enough, of course).
I also love the feigned anger by sleazy politicians like Rob Emanuel, who invited IN business to come to Chicago, knowing full well that IL has the same law already in place (signed on to by then Sen.Barack Obama), or the soulless Gov. of Connecticut who suspended business travel to IN, despite also having the same law on the books there.
The Federal Law, passed during the early years of the Clinton administration, was passed in response to Native Americans being discriminated against for smoking peyote in ceremonies. While the wording may be similar, the Indiana law was passed in response to courts overturning gay marriage bans and to politically please anti-gay marriage people who somehow feel that their religious freedom is being violated. As the New York Times said, this law is like building a moat (with or without ill-tempered sea bass) around yourself because you don't get what you want.
Is it worth all the pain and controversy for the state of Indiana to pass this law?
Here are quotes from the article posted by wh. The gentleman is from the Heritage Foundation and, while the language of the law may be similar to the Federal Law, you can clearly see the intent is different.
He argues that the law provides those with strong religious beliefs a shield from being discriminated against for dissenting against popular opinions about marriage or other faith-based matters.
"This debate has nothing to do with refusing to serve gays simply because they're gay, and this law wouldn't protect that," he told The Daily Signal.
The religious liberty concern centers on the reasonable belief that marriage is the union of a man and a woman. The question is whether the government should discriminate against these citizens, should the government coerce them into helping to celebrate a same-sex wedding and penalize them if they try to lead their lives in accordance with their faith? A Religious Freedom Restoration Act could protect these citizens. But it might not.
Some questions:
-Can people who have strong religious beliefs be in favor of gay marriage?
-Where is the line where dissenting against popular opinions about gay marriage or other faith based issues is OK? Can a business choose to not provide service for a gay couple celebrating a wedding anniversary? How about the baptism of their child? Can a teacher refuse to meet with both parents of a child if the parents are a gay couple?
-What does the "refusing to serve gay people simply because they are gay" mean? Does it mean that if they behave in some socially acceptable way for a couple, the business owner or other person can choose not to provide service.
-"Reasonable belief that marriage is a union of man and woman". Who makes the decision of reasonable belief? Some churches believe in gay marriage and some don't, while marriage from a legal standpoint does not have a religious aspect.
And a few last questions, for those of you not in favor of gay marriage do you really feel that it infringes on your religious freedom? What can't you do because of gay marriage? And perhaps most importantly, do you know any people that are gay, are they your friends, and how would you respond to them if they wanted to get married?
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 30, 2015, 08:03:57 PM
On a national level, Pence is looking very Bachmann-esque, and that is not good.
Actually Pence makes Bachmann look like a genius.
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 31, 2015, 07:09:24 AM
Is it worth all the pain and controversy for the state of Indiana to pass this law?
No, unfortunately our esteemed Governor is a moron and had no idea there would be a backlash. Sadly he isn't too bright and is surrounded by advisers who may be worse.
The amount of damage this has caused in a week is unbelievable.
Quote from: 78crusader on March 31, 2015, 05:16:16 AM
As a lawyer, I thought I might try something really unusual and actually read the law and compare it to its federal counterpart, rather than rely on subjective reports from the media.
The federal law: "Government may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest."
Here's the language of the Indiana law: "A governmental entity may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if the governmental entity demonstrates that application of the burden to the person: (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest."
Um. Nearly identical. The federal statute was passed in 1993 and was signed into law by President Clinton. 19 other states have passed identical laws, and President Obama supported just such a law when he was a state senator in Illinois.
Paul
Ah, the Obama defense, when Republicans start to use Obama as reasoning support for their cause you know how bad it is.
I think you will find that the difference between Indiana and all others relates to protected classes, who is and who isn't.
This could have been avoided with some simple wording in the bill but was not.
And it should be noted that simple wording that the law did not allow discrimination against gays was proposed as an amendment during debate in the Indiana legislature. The amendment was denied and Pence never called for it. It wasn't an oversight...it was a conscious decison not to include that wording.
This is not meant to be a smart alecky question, Indy Valpo, but if the difference is who is included in the protected classes covered by these laws, perhaps you could cite the statutory language which forms the basis for your statement.
Paul
My knowledge of statutory language has to do with insurance accounting so I can't really do that.
There is no language in these laws. As it was explained to me (not claiming to be anywhere near an expert) the underlying protections are not in Indiana law.
Per today's press conference....if the governor had any foresight none of this would have happen......
Embattled Indiana Gov. Mike Pence attempted again Tuesday morning to "clarify" the state's controversial new "religious freedom" law.
Pence said it has been a tough week and said "we've got a perception problem" that needs to be fixed.
Pence said he concluded that it is necessary to move legislation to amend the law to make it clear that it does not give businesses the right to deny services to anyone. He said he wanted legislation on his desk by the end of the week to accomplish that.
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/college-football/story/_/id/12593229/usc-trojans-ad-pat-haden-boycott-college-football-playoff-meetings-indianapolis-religious-freedom-law (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/college-football/story/_/id/12593229/usc-trojans-ad-pat-haden-boycott-college-football-playoff-meetings-indianapolis-religious-freedom-law)
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 31, 2015, 11:53:36 AM
Per today's press conference....if the governor had any foresight none of this would have happen......
Embattled Indiana Gov. Mike Pence attempted again Tuesday morning to "clarify" the state's controversial new "religious freedom" law.
Pence said it has been a tough week and said "we've got a perception problem" that needs to be fixed.
Pence said he concluded that it is necessary to move legislation to amend the law to make it clear that it does not give businesses the right to deny services to anyone. He said he wanted legislation on his desk by the end of the week to accomplish that..
Thanks Indy. I'm sure there were some well-meaning people involved in the initial development of this legislation. But, it goes back to what I said earlier. No one, in their zeal, looked at this carefully. It was very poorly written. And Pence's advisors must be a bunch of "Yes-people" with no one covering his (or our for that matter) six. A really pathetic example of poor legislation, leadership, myopic judgment and defending the indefensible - IMO. BTW - Arkansas just passed their version -- hope they learned from this mistake. But it's Arkansas, and maybe they didn't :(
Can't believe gays are going to be banned from Indiana.
Quote from: wh on March 31, 2015, 05:58:35 AMI also love the feigned anger by sleazy politicians like Rob Emanuel, who invited IN business to come to Chicago, knowing full well that IL has the same law already in place (signed on to by then Sen.Barack Obama), or the soulless Gov. of Connecticut who suspended business travel to IN, despite also having the same law on the books there.
The difference between Illinois and Indiana laws here is that Illinois also has a law protecting certain classes (gays, blacks etc.) against discrimination along with a law that protects religious groups against an infringement of their right to practice their religious beliefs. Indiana has no such law against discriminating against certain classes. The Indiana legislature had a proposed amendment to the RFRA law that would have protected those classes and Indiana unfortunately thought that was not needed. They voted against it. This huge blunder by the legislature and Gov. Pence, who didn't see the backlash coming, will cost Indiana multiple millions of dollars in lost business opportunities and loss of many other potential business opportunities. Gov. Pence has undone so much of the goodwill that Gov. Daniels built up in the business community. Even if the legislature goes back and rewrites the wording of the RFRA it will not do enough to repair the damage that was done. Rahm (not Rob, boy, you got so mad when they couldn't get Darien's name correct) Emanuel maybe sleazy in inviting the Indiana businesses to Illinois but his state will gain millions of dollars in business from Indiana due to Gov. Pence and the Indiana legislature's ineptitude in judging how the way the law was written would be interpreted by the rest of the country.
http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/2015/03/31/column-work-clarify-indiana-law/70738526/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/2015/03/31/column-work-clarify-indiana-law/70738526/)
http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/readers/2015/03/31/fallout-rfra-concerning/70744904/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/readers/2015/03/31/fallout-rfra-concerning/70744904/)
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/31/gov-mike-pence-hold-news-conference-clarify-religious-freedom-law/70712968/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/31/gov-mike-pence-hold-news-conference-clarify-religious-freedom-law/70712968/)
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/31/indiana-democrats-repeat-call-rfra-repeal/70723770/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/31/indiana-democrats-repeat-call-rfra-repeal/70723770/)
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/31/former-vp-quayle-hurt-national-criticism-indiana/70741842/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/31/former-vp-quayle-hurt-national-criticism-indiana/70741842/)
Quote from: a3uge on March 31, 2015, 10:34:18 PM
Can't believe gays are going to be banned from Indiana.
Notgay, Indiana. I'm not sure exactly where that city is but it's no where near the federal prison in Terre Haute. :o
http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/matthew-tully/2015/04/01/tully-mike-pence-league-governor/70746540/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/matthew-tully/2015/04/01/tully-mike-pence-league-governor/70746540/)
Mike Pence is out of his league as governor
When you have to "clarify" a horribly damaging piece of legislation that you raced to sign, when you dodge a question on national TV about whether discrimination is legal in your state, when you deal your state a crushing economic blow, when you seem incapable of understanding the role you have played in creating this mess — well, that makes clear that you are not in the right job.
I have a feeling there are some that will call for the impeachment of Mike Pence as governor. He has hurt the state beyond repair. I don't believe there will be enough votes for his impeachment but Indiana has not had this poor of leadership in a long time.
This is being blown completely out of proportion. The law will be amended WAY before it takes effect in July. No business will be lost, the NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it even happen. This only probably hurts Pence as he will now most likely never be able to run for President.
Indiana's Religious Freedom Restoration Act, Explained (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/indianas-religious-freedom-restoration-act-explained_900641.html)
Fixing Indiana's Religious-Freedom Law (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/the-gathering-backlash-against-indianas-religious-freedom-law/389162/)
It will be interesting to see if this wakes up the religious right at all. Hard to believe that such a small minority can cause so much angst. Americans Have No Idea How Few Gay People There Are (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/#disqus_thread)
I won't say much on this topic, other than that I agree with FWalum that this has been blown completely out of proportion...
Quote from: vu72 on March 30, 2015, 09:51:50 PM
President Heckler's statement:
http://www.valpo.edu/news/2015/03/30/president-heckler-issues-statement-on-indianas-religious-freedom-restoration-act/ (http://www.valpo.edu/news/2015/03/30/president-heckler-issues-statement-on-indianas-religious-freedom-restoration-act/)
From the statement:
"Valparaiso University's Board-approved non-discrimination statement welcomes all people regardless of race, ethnicity, age, gender, sexual orientation, or religion."
Interestingly, disabled individuals, who have federal protection mechanisms available to them in various capacities, were not included within that statement. Why? I find this extremely curious as an academic institution, since there may be students who attend VU currently that were eligible to receive services and supports under the Individuals With Disabilities Educational Act in lower, middle, or high school in order to get to college.
Quote from: FWalum on April 01, 2015, 09:40:24 AM
This is being blown completely out of proportion. The law will be amended WAY before it takes effect in July. No business will be lost, the NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it even happen. This only probably hurts Pence as he will now most likely never be able to run for President.
Indiana's Religious Freedom Restoration Act, Explained (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/indianas-religious-freedom-restoration-act-explained_900641.html)
Fixing Indiana's Religious-Freedom Law (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/the-gathering-backlash-against-indianas-religious-freedom-law/389162/)
It will be interesting to see if this wakes up the religious right at all. Hard to believe that such a small minority can cause so much angst. Americans Have No Idea How Few Gay People There Are (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/#disqus_thread)
I agree that the bill is being blown WAY out of proportion. But this just isnt playing nice with moderates. The law probably will affect, what, 2-3 people a year... probably more lawsuit trolls than anyone legitimately being denied a service they want for being gay. Here's how a real life situation would likely go down between, say a photographer uncomfortable with gay marriage and a gay couple:
Gay Couple: We are interested in your photography, do you have much experience in gay weddings?
Photographer: I've never worked a gay wedding before, so I'm not sure you'd get the best experience from our company. I know a few photographers that do good work...
Gay Couple: Okay, thanks!
Really, how many cake companies or photographers in Indiana are there that won't take money from clients because they're gay? I think I've read like one story of a pizza place that would refuse to cater gay weddings. Really? A pizza place catering a wedding? I've never even heard of pizza at a wedding. I think you'll find only 3-4 legitimate businesses actually stupid enough to publicly claim they'll deny service to gay couples for religious reasons.
With that being said, the idiots advising Pence need to be fired immediately. The bill is way more trouble than its worth. To have this passed right before the Final Four in Indianapolis was the cherry on top. Absolutely idiotic political consulting here.
Moving from Wisconsin to Indiana, its clear the Republican party is a LOT more competent up north. When Scott Walker passed ACT 10 barring collective bargaining on non-salary incentives, it was a battle worth fighting for with actual benefits. Wisconsin saved over $2 billion in taxes that were essentially wasted through the public sector union created insurance company that was artificially jacking up rates. That issue riled up the base and won over moderates, even though there was a massive temper tantrum from the always-protesting crowd. The pro-Walker crowd, got sick of these guys doing things like: (to name a few) writing death threats against Walker, interrupting a Special Olympics medal ceremony where Walker was presenting, and protesting with bullhorns outside of Scott Walker's parents house.
In this case? Well, it's not the taxpayers being saved from a massive ponzi scheme, its just a couple of people uncomfortable baking cakes for gay people. Is it really worth the mob for this? It just doesn't make sense why this bill needed to be passed.
Quote from: FWalum on April 01, 2015, 09:40:24 AM
This is being blown completely out of proportion. The law will be amended WAY before it takes effect in July. No business will be lost, the NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it even happen. This only probably hurts Pence as he will now most likely never be able to run for President.
Indiana's Religious Freedom Restoration Act, Explained (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/indianas-religious-freedom-restoration-act-explained_900641.html)
Fixing Indiana's Religious-Freedom Law (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/the-gathering-backlash-against-indianas-religious-freedom-law/389162/)
It will be interesting to see if this wakes up the religious right at all. Hard to believe that such a small minority can cause so much angst. Americans Have No Idea How Few Gay People There Are (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/#disqus_thread)
And this is the entire problem. There was absolutely no need for this bill. All it did was play to Pence's base.
Sadly, business has already been lost, talk to the head of Visit Indy. Fishers just lost a potential new business because of it.
Actually this hurts all Hoosiers because Pence might have run for President. To do that he would not have run for re-election which would be a victory for all.
Quote from: vu84v2 on March 30, 2015, 10:57:31 PM
I cannot speak highly enough of the statement by President Heckler.
Valparaiso has an overseas program in China, and many international students' tuitions apparently are funded by countries that discriminate and are terrible on their own records of civil rights or in tacitly complicit partnerships with other governments who engage in horrible treatment of gays, women, or Christians. I will be more impressed when a similarly public and high profile statement by the University is directed toward the practices of those bodies.
Overwhelming discussion about the Indiana RFRA yet very little media coverage of the Iran nuclear talks and whether President Obama is placing his personal hunger for a legacy ahead of his most solemn duty – protecting America's national security.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on April 01, 2015, 01:47:46 PM
Overwhelming discussion about the Indiana RFRA yet very little media coverage of the Iran nuclear talks and whether President Obama is placing his personal hunger for a legacy ahead of his most solemn duty – protecting America's national security.
Paul
Yet another reason why this bill was unnecessary. In the big scheme of things...not very important
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 01, 2015, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on April 01, 2015, 01:47:46 PM
Overwhelming discussion about the Indiana RFRA yet very little media coverage of the Iran nuclear talks and whether President Obama is placing his personal hunger for a legacy ahead of his most solemn duty – protecting America's national security.
Paul
Yet another reason why this bill was unnecessary. In the big scheme of things...not very important
So every state's government should halt right now?
Quote from: a3uge on April 01, 2015, 02:05:13 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 01, 2015, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on April 01, 2015, 01:47:46 PM
Overwhelming discussion about the Indiana RFRA yet very little media coverage of the Iran nuclear talks and whether President Obama is placing his personal hunger for a legacy ahead of his most solemn duty – protecting America's national security.
Paul
Yet another reason why this bill was unnecessary. In the big scheme of things...not very important
So every state's government should halt right now?
Asa Hutchinson, the governor of Arkansas, is no dummy. He has told his legislature in Arkansas to recall or amend their RFRA bill or he will seek to balance the "competing constitutional obligations" if the Arkansas legislature does not amend their bill. Gov. Hutchinson has seen what happened in Indiana and has heard the backlash in his own state and is moving in a much more wise manner than his counterparts in Indiana. A much more wise leader.
Gov. Hutchinson says the Arkansas' RFRA needs to mirror exactly the federal RFRA and he can then avoid all the issues that have happened in Indiana. Pence acted unwisely. Hutchinson seeing the writing on the wall about loss of business to his state is a much more wise politician.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/us/arkansas-indiana-religious-freedom-hutchinson-pence.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/us/arkansas-indiana-religious-freedom-hutchinson-pence.html?_r=0)
Pence had aspirations to run for President? That is hilarious. Maybe Michelle Bachmann can be his running mate.
Quote from: bbtds on April 01, 2015, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 01, 2015, 02:05:13 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 01, 2015, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on April 01, 2015, 01:47:46 PM
Overwhelming discussion about the Indiana RFRA yet very little media coverage of the Iran nuclear talks and whether President Obama is placing his personal hunger for a legacy ahead of his most solemn duty – protecting America's national security.
Paul
Yet another reason why this bill was unnecessary. In the big scheme of things...not very important
So every state's government should halt right now?
Asa Hutchinson, the governor of Arkansas, is no dummy. He has told his legislature in Arkansas to recall or amend their RFRA bill or he will seek to balance the "competing constitutional obligations" if the Arkansas legislature does not amend their bill. Gov. Hutchinson has seen what happened in Indiana and has heard the backlash in his own state and is moving in a much more wise manner than his counterparts in Indiana. A much more wise leader.
Gov. Hutchinson says the Arkansas' RFRA needs to mirror exactly the federal RFRA and he can then avoid all the issues that have happened in Indiana. Pence acted unwisely. Hutchinson seeing the writing on the wall about loss of business to his state is a much more wise politician.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/us/arkansas-indiana-religious-freedom-hutchinson-pence.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/us/arkansas-indiana-religious-freedom-hutchinson-pence.html?_r=0)
I agree with this, but the notion that state governments shouldn't be passing legislation deemed "not very important" because of conflict in Iran seems pretty stupid.
Quote from: FWalum on April 01, 2015, 09:40:24 AMNo business will be lost, the NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it even happen. This only probably hurts Pence as he will now most likely never be able to run for President.
http://www.indystar.com/story/money/2015/03/28/angies-list-canceling-eastside-expansion-rfra/70590738/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/money/2015/03/28/angies-list-canceling-eastside-expansion-rfra/70590738/)
The continuing blowback over Indiana's new "religious freedom" law hit home Saturday, with Indianapolis-based Angie's List announcing it is canceling a $40 million headquarters expansion.
The decision is a direct result of passage of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, co-founder and chief executive officer Bill Oesterle said Saturday.
The proposed expansion of the online consumer ratings service was touted to add 1,000 good-paying jobs over five years and help revitalize a struggling Eastside neighborhood.
This could be a sign of other things to come," warned Zach Adamson, the Democrat councilman who represents the neighborhood where the $40 million expansion was planned.
"It has only been two days since the bill was signed and we're already hearing of other things. This is not good."1,000 paying jobs lost in Indy. Listen to the video in which the CEO of Angie's List explains their reasoning for cancelling their expansion project. If that is not business lost, what is?
78Crusader - yep, I saw this on Fox and Friends this morning as they were trying to defend Pence and the far right supporters. The best thing Indiana can do is completely bag this law and work on more important things.
Quote from: a3uge on April 01, 2015, 02:05:13 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on April 01, 2015, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on April 01, 2015, 01:47:46 PM
Overwhelming discussion about the Indiana RFRA yet very little media coverage of the Iran nuclear talks and whether President Obama is placing his personal hunger for a legacy ahead of his most solemn duty – protecting America's national security.
Paul
Yet another reason why this bill was unnecessary. In the big scheme of things...not very important
So every state's government should halt right now?
Passing unnecessary legislation that actually hurts the state, yes.
Quote from: bbtds on April 01, 2015, 02:41:17 PM
Quote from: FWalum on April 01, 2015, 09:40:24 AMNo business will be lost, the NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it even happen. This only probably hurts Pence as he will now most likely never be able to run for President.
http://www.indystar.com/story/money/2015/03/28/angies-list-canceling-eastside-expansion-rfra/70590738/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/money/2015/03/28/angies-list-canceling-eastside-expansion-rfra/70590738/)
The continuing blowback over Indiana's new "religious freedom" law hit home Saturday, with Indianapolis-based Angie's List announcing it is canceling a $40 million headquarters expansion.
The decision is a direct result of passage of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, co-founder and chief executive officer Bill Oesterle said Saturday.
The proposed expansion of the online consumer ratings service was touted to add 1,000 good-paying jobs over five years and help revitalize a struggling Eastside neighborhood.
This could be a sign of other things to come," warned Zach Adamson, the Democrat councilman who represents the neighborhood where the $40 million expansion was planned.
"It has only been two days since the bill was signed and we're already hearing of other things. This is not good."
1,000 paying jobs lost in Indy. Listen to the video in which the CEO of Angie's List explains their reasoning for cancelling their expansion project. If that is not business lost, what is?
That's probably a bad example. Angies List hasn't turned a profit in 20 years and was getting an $18 million bond for their renovations. There's no way they would ever be able to pay back those obligations with a business model that charges for a service anyone can find for free from various reliable sources. This was likely Angie's List covering themselves - I highly doubt a $40 investment and 1000 new hires will come in a different state.
Quote from: a3uge on April 01, 2015, 03:17:42 PMthe NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it
For some, I think Indiana is just a warm-up for next year when the Final Four will be in Texas.
Quote from: valpopal on April 01, 2015, 03:33:28 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 01, 2015, 03:17:42 PMthe NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it
For some, I think Indiana is just a warm-up for next year when the Final Four will be in Texas.
This wasn't my quote.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 01, 2015, 02:46:06 PM
78Crusader - yep, I saw this on Fox and Friends this morning as they were trying to defend Pence and the far right supporters. The best thing Indiana can do is completely bag this law and work on more important things.
I didn't watch Fox this morning but similar alarm bells have sounded recently from many sources, including many Democratic members of Congress, Amir Hossein Motaghi, an Iranian who covered the talks for his country and is now seeking asylum (and who has said that the "US negotiating team is mainly there to speak on Iran's behalf with other members of the 5+1 countries and convince them of a deal,"), and Lt. General Michael Flynn, former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency under President Obama, who recently said this Administration is displaying "willful ignorance" regarding Iran.
None of this is making the mainstream media. It should.
Paul
Quote from: bbtds on April 01, 2015, 02:41:17 PM
Quote from: FWalum on April 01, 2015, 09:40:24 AMNo business will be lost, the NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it even happen. This only probably hurts Pence as he will now most likely never be able to run for President.
http://www.indystar.com/story/money/2015/03/28/angies-list-canceling-eastside-expansion-rfra/70590738/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/money/2015/03/28/angies-list-canceling-eastside-expansion-rfra/70590738/)
The continuing blowback over Indiana's new "religious freedom" law hit home Saturday, with Indianapolis-based Angie's List announcing it is canceling a $40 million headquarters expansion.
The decision is a direct result of passage of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, co-founder and chief executive officer Bill Oesterle said Saturday.
The proposed expansion of the online consumer ratings service was touted to add 1,000 good-paying jobs over five years and help revitalize a struggling Eastside neighborhood.
This could be a sign of other things to come," warned Zach Adamson, the Democrat councilman who represents the neighborhood where the $40 million expansion was planned.
"It has only been two days since the bill was signed and we're already hearing of other things. This is not good."
1,000 paying jobs lost in Indy. Listen to the video in which the CEO of Angie's List explains their reasoning for cancelling their expansion project. If that is not business lost, what is?
Maybe Angie's List ought to worry about more important things like their stock price and shareholders,. To make a HUGE decision like this based on a knee jerk reaction to a law that WILL be amended or repealed is
completely stupid and makes me wonder about the intellect of their management team. Stock is down about 5% since they made their "moral" stand and now sits at $5.66 which is down over 50% in the last year. I agree, they are in no position to make a 40 million dollar investment in Indy. They probably were looking for some good PR and it appears to have backfired.
[tweet]583384656466317312[/tweet]
So these guys are for ending Valpos study abroad center in China, right?
Quote from: a3uge on April 01, 2015, 05:33:39 PM
[tweet]583384656466317312[/tweet]
So these guys are for ending Valpos study abroad center in China, right?
And, students from Muslim countries won't be returning home to their wonderful lands of tolerance and equality for all, I take it?
Take that crap and peddle it somewhere else.
Quote from: 78crusader on April 01, 2015, 01:47:46 PM
Overwhelming discussion about the Indiana RFRA yet very little media coverage of the Iran nuclear talks and whether President Obama is placing his personal hunger for a legacy ahead of his most solemn duty – protecting America's national security.
Paul
You could not be more accurate. While everyone's focused on this petty nonsense, the President of the United State of America is paving the way for Iran and their fanatical mullahs to establish a multi-nation caliphate with nuclear weapons, act on their "destiny" to destroy the nation of Israel, and usher in Armageddon. He either has no idea what he's doing - or, he knows exactly what he's doing. Either way, he has clearly become the most dangerous person on the planet.
Quote from: valpopal on April 01, 2015, 03:33:28 PM
Quote from: a3uge on April 01, 2015, 03:17:42 PMthe NCAA will not move and in a year no average person will remember it
For some, I think Indiana is just a warm-up for next year when the Final Four will be in Texas.
Good luck in trying to get Texas to cancel our Religious Freedom Law. Ours isn't in the same category as some of the things left out of the Indiana law, but you won't get our legislators to cater to the 2% movement, when the law is not designed to be against gay people. Again, I'm not even 'religious,' and I don't want it overturned. The only way such things will happen in TX, is if a liberal-leaning Federal court (I believe ours is in Louisiana) forces it on us.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/12594299/mac-hold-championships-meetings-indiana (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/12594299/mac-hold-championships-meetings-indiana)
Great news. Perhaps the Horizon League will follow suit. :thumbsup:
Quote from: setshot on April 02, 2015, 03:18:29 PM
Great news. Perhaps the Horizon League will follow suit. :thumbsup:
You hope Valpo won't be allowed to host another Horizon League Championship game because of a law that has nothing to do with Valpo passed recently?
Once it has the amendment and the appropriate language to protect all patrons from being discriminated against based on what the federal government has declared protected classes (Race, Religion, Sexual Orientation, etc) then this bill will be fine. Without that language this bill is nothing but a farce. I'm glad they are catching flack from it. Hell, as the bill states right now a Jewish deli could choose not to serve me, a Christian, because they disagree with my religious convictions.
I understand that the Indiana legislature is amending the law and will submit it for signing. Great........ except........
According to USAToday's coverage of Mark Emmert's NCAA press conference, the following will be added:
"Earlier on Thursday, Republican lawmakers in Indiana announced a proposed new measure prohibiting the law from being used to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity"Fine. But, what about a poor Asian, blind, agnostic? Or a black muslim paraplegic? My point is that, again, this legislation will probably remain flawed in its writing because the knee-jerk bandaid response is so specific. The intent was to cover a gap in the Federal RFRA that was promulgated back in the 90s. I don't argue with the intent nor the well intended people who are trying to do a good job. It's just that greater thought and analysis is needed on things like this.
Quote from: Kyle321n on April 02, 2015, 03:55:04 PM
Once it has the amendment and the appropriate language to protect all patrons from being discriminated against based on what the federal government has declared protected classes (Race, Religion, Sexual Orientation, etc) then this bill will be fine. Without that language this bill is nothing but a farce. I'm glad they are catching flack from it. Hell, as the bill states right now a Jewish deli could choose not to serve me, a Christian, because they disagree with my religious convictions.
In reality, is this law really needed or is it to keep the Palin and Bachmann knuckleheads happy? Shouldn't Pence deal with more important issues like revitalizing Gary's economy?
Quote from: VULB#62 on April 02, 2015, 04:35:16 PM
I understand that the Indiana legislature is amending the law and will submit it for signing. Great........ except........
According to USAToday's coverage of Mark Emmert's NCAA press conference, the following will be added:
"Earlier on Thursday, Republican lawmakers in Indiana announced a proposed new measure prohibiting the law from being used to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity"
Fine. But, what about a poor Asian, blind, agnostic? Or a black muslim paraplegic? My point is that, again, this legislation will probably remain flawed in its writing because the knee-jerk bandaid response is so specific. The intent was to cover a gap in the Federal RFRA that was promulgated back in the 90s. I don't argue with the intent nor the well intended people who are trying to do a good job. It's just that greater thought and analysis is needed on things like this.
Quote from: Kyle321n on April 02, 2015, 03:55:04 PM
Once it has the amendment and the appropriate language to protect all patrons from being discriminated against based on what the federal government has declared protected classes (Race, Religion, Sexual Orientation, etc) then this bill will be fine. Without that language this bill is nothing but a farce. I'm glad they are catching flack from it. Hell, as the bill states right now a Jewish deli could choose not to serve me, a Christian, because they disagree with my religious convictions.
Completely agree. This 'new age' has become overly sensitive to anything that could be taken as discrimination. I blame it on giving ribbons/awards to everyone that participates in an event, rather than the true 1 winner and everyone else is a loser model that we all grew up with :)
tx, I agree, it's like giving out cookies and kool-aid after little league baseball games is the forever norm now. Heck, on Tuesday, when I go vote, I wouldn't shocked to see the opportunity to grab a cookie or cup of coffee on my way out of the library doors, even though that is illegal entice to skew the vote.
We face so many urgent challenges -- lack of fiscal restraint and the specter of a nuclear-armed Iran, among others -- and here we are worried about sending a confectioner off to jail for refusing to bake a cake for a wedding in which there is no bride?
And don't be fooled by this "Framework Agreement" supposedly reached between the G5+1 and Iran. The old adage that "the devil is in the details" has never been more true than it is now. Despite the efforts of the White House pr machine, which is now in overdrive mode, this so-called "deal" in no way satisfies our national security interests. Once the details emerge (assuming there is ever a written agreement reached by June 30), the public will realize this whole thing is contrived effort to cement the "legacy" of our president and that neither he nor the Iranians can be trusted on this matter of supreme importance. We'd have been better off if the Marx Brothers showed up in Switzerland to negotiate rather than John Kerry.
Paul
I can see many concerns about the rhetoric behind this deal. Is the US so committed to getting an agreement that they will excessively concede too much? A framework is not a deal and the deal is never done until it is done. All legitimate concerns.
But let me offer another perspective, wth my admittedly limited information.
The status quo: Iran develops nuclear weapons as they wish, US/Israel/etc. can prepare to defend themselves and use limited intelligence gathering on what Iran is doing, Iran has strict limits on oil exports.
After a deal (if one can really be done): Iran may still develop nuclear weapons as they wish (if they reneg on the deal), but US and others have better monitoring capabilities (or at least know they are not being allowed to monitor), US/Israel/etc. can still be prepared to defend themselves, Iran can ship more oil.
While the probability of gaining from the deal is not high, are the risks of things getting worse that much greater. I honestly am not sure. Admittedly, I don't like "rewarding" a country for doing something bad (i.e. Iran developing nuclear weapons), but I could also see that we are taking away the punishment.
Two comments from previous posts regarding protests at Valpo.
So these guys are for ending Valpos study abroad center in China, right?
And, students from Muslim countries won't be returning home to their wonderful lands of tolerance and equality for all, I take it? Take that crap and peddle it somewhere else.
First quote: Relationships for students from China to come to the US and for US students to study in China is very complex. Among other things, it involves reduced funding from states to public schools, the huge trade between China and the US that students need to be prepared for, and the cultural impact on Chinese young people studying in the US on Chinese culture (i.e the US culture makes them question things about their system).
Second quote: From this post, you must be assuming that people from muslim countries like their corrupt and sometimes evil governments. Perhaps many find they like it here and want to be a part of and contribute to society. Oh, I never heard whether this poster had ever met a muslim or had muslim friends - so perhaps they really don't have any valid insight into how people from muslim countries think.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 03, 2015, 07:28:52 PM
Two comments from previous posts regarding protests at Valpo.
So these guys are for ending Valpos study abroad center in China, right?
And, students from Muslim countries won't be returning home to their wonderful lands of tolerance and equality for all, I take it? Take that crap and peddle it somewhere else.
First quote: Relationships for students from China to come to the US and for US students to study in China is very complex. Among other things, it involves reduced funding from states to public schools, the huge trade between China and the US that students need to be prepared for, and the cultural impact on Chinese young people studying in the US on Chinese culture (i.e the US culture makes them question things about their system).
Second quote: From this post, you must be assuming that people from muslim countries like their corrupt and sometimes evil governments. Perhaps many find they like it here and want to be a part of and contribute to society. Oh, I never heard whether this poster had ever met a muslim or had muslim friends - so perhaps they really don't have any valid insight into how people from muslim countries think.
The fact that you took issue with the obvious irony/hypocrisy/disrespect of a member of Islam (the most intolerant, anti-gay, anti-female religion on the face of the earth) marching on City Hall in Valparaiso, IN to express their outrage over the alleged mistreatment of homosexuals (you know, the people who get stoned to death in Muslim dominated countries throughout the Middle East) tells me the foundation probably isn't there to have an honest discussion.
Quote from: wh on April 03, 2015, 09:40:38 PM
The fact that you took issue with the obvious irony/hypocrisy/disrespect of a member of Islam (most intolerant, anti-gay, anti-female religion on the face of the earth) marching on City Hall in Valparaiso, IN to express their outrage over the alleged mistreatment of homothe sexuals (you know, the people who get stoned to death in Muslim dominated countries throughout the Middle East) tells me the foundation probably isn't there to have an honest discussion.
Maybe I misinterpreted your response and forgive me if I did, but WH, I have respected all of your Valpo/sports-related and university-related comments and analysis. They have been soundly based, very analytical and objective. I have learned much from your thoughtful posts. But when you jump to the political world, whether it be religious politics or secular politics, suddenly all objectivity seems to vanish. Your vehemence almost startles me. So I feel a need to respond. I have a number of close Muslim friends and colleagues. They are revolted by what is being done in the name of a religion they love. To paint all Muslims with the same brush is reflective of intolerance and bigotry. We must not confuse the radical "Islamic" sects -- they are truly NOT Islamic if you read the the Quran -- with the millions of Muslims faithful to the real message of their religion. Here in the US, to a lesser extent, we are confronted with the same dichotomy: Are you a Christian or are you a real CHRISTIAN? Though we sometimes get close, thank God we don't have to go to civil war to determine which brand of Christianity will prevail. I personally don't care if I go to hell because I don't read scriptures daily. But there are those among us out there who measure us by that standard. And if we challenge their interpretation of a Biblical passage, we are damned to hell and maybe deserve to be executed right now. Christ and Mohamed taught tolerance and love. At the extremist end of the continuum there is no room for either. We need to search for ways to always follow the precepts of love and tolerance despite what current events throw in our path. Nuff said. Just had to say it. Back to making Valpo the best it can be. And if we ever meet at a game I'll buy you a beer or any libations of your choice. :)
Part of what wh states is true though, VULB. It isn't just the extremist Muslims that are intolerant in the ways he mentions. Whole countries in the Middle East dominate their women, and it is an absolute joke that they don't get the same opportunities as men (driving, going out in public without a male escort, showing their face/any skin at all besides their eyes, schooling, etc). These aren't all extremist countries/sects with these laws or expectations of their women, but rather a big part of their culture...
I could not agree more with VULB's comments. I also think that Valpotx makes some very good points too. Saudi Arabia's restrictions on women are terrible, but those mistreatments are based on laws from an outdated and cruel interpretations of the Quran. Countries like Jordan and Morocco are much better since there are few (if any) restrictions baased on religious interpretation. Theocracies are bad, illustrating another strength of our country where state and church are separate.
Quote from: valpotx on April 04, 2015, 03:26:51 AM
Part of what wh states is true though, VULB. It isn't just the extremist Muslims that are intolerant in the ways he mentions. Whole countries in the Middle East dominate their women, and it is an absolute joke that they don't get the same opportunities as men (driving, going out in public without a male escort, showing their face/any skin at all besides their eyes, schooling, etc). These aren't all extremist countries/sects with these laws or expectations of their women, but rather a big part of their culture...
This is what happens with long exchanges - things get lost in the translation. What I originally referred to is the hypocrisy/irony of a VU Muslim student from a Middle Eastern country participating in the protest march at City Hall where students were holding up signs saying we won't go where everyone isn't wanted (or something close to that).
Muslim dominated countries in the Middle East are the most bigoted, vile, despicable cultures in the world. They despise Jews, publicly call for the complete destruction of Israel, slaughter Christians, put homosexuals to death, treat women like slaves, behead people, cut off arms for stealing. They imprison anyone who dares speak out against Islam. They execute anyone that says anything deemed derogatory toward their "prophet." They have a kangaroo court system. I could go on for hours. In some countries these are governments are voted in by the people. In others they're kingdoms where if their rulers didn't enforce some form of this intolerant, bigoted "religious" system, they would be overthrown and killed by the people of the country. For anyone who hails from one of these despicable places to come over here as a guest of this country and have the audacity to publicly criticize a government decision supporting religious freedom makes me want to throw up.
QuoteCompletely agree. This 'new age' has become overly sensitive to anything that could be taken as discrimination. I blame it on giving ribbons/awards to everyone that participates in an event, rather than the true 1 winner and everyone else is a loser model that we all grew up with
Quotetx, I agree, it's like giving out cookies and kool-aid after little league baseball games is the forever norm now. Heck, on Tuesday, when I go vote, I wouldn't shocked to see the opportunity to grab a cookie or cup of coffee on my way out of the library doors, even though that is illegal entice to skew the vote.
So I guess both of you feel that it was acceptable for Wichita East High School to disallow a student with Downs Syndrome from wearing an athletic jacket with a varsity letter on it simply because he didn't compete in recognized varsity competition? See:
http://www.wfsb.com/story/28635455/ks-high-school-says-no-to-varsity-letter-for-special-needs-student (http://www.wfsb.com/story/28635455/ks-high-school-says-no-to-varsity-letter-for-special-needs-student)
Or, what about the severely autistic student who, because of his profound manifestations of disability, cannot satisfy regular diploma requirements but instead earns an "IEP", "occupational", or some other alternate type of high school diploma? Is that equivalent to awarding a ribbon to the 12th man on the deal team too?
Where do you draw the line between accommodation-like practices to prevent overt and covert discrimination and everyone getting milk and cookies?
Quoteauthor=wh link=topic=2158.msg58871#msg58871 date=1428155689]They have a kangaroo court system. I could go on for hours. In some countries these are governments are voted in by the people. In others they're kingdoms where if their rulers didn't enforce some form of this intolerant, bigoted "religious" system, they would be overthrown and killed by the people of the country. For anyone who hails from one of these despicable places to come over here as a guest of this country and have the audacity to publicly criticize a government decision supporting religious freedom makes me want to throw up.
Don't hold back, wh, tell us how you really feel. You seem to have a lot of emotion pent up. Keep going, we don't want to miss anything. :) (sorry, HC)
So any person that comes to the US legally on a work or student visa (or even becomes a US citizen), regardless of their own personal opinions, statements and actions, is permanently bound to the actions of not only their home country government but also countries in that region? I don't think anyone here is saying that awful things done by evil governments doesn't exist, but rather we (or at least I) are saying that individual people should be considered on their own personal merits. Thus, I see no hypocrisy in a muslim student (whether they are from the US or elsewhere) chosing to protest.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 04, 2015, 10:51:29 AM
So any person that comes to the US legally on a work or student visa (or even becomes a US citizen), regardless of their own personal opinions, statements and actions, is permanently bound to the actions of not only their home country government but also countries in that region? I don't think anyone here is saying that awful things done by evil governments doesn't exist, but rather we (or at least I) are saying that individual people should be considered on their own personal merits. Thus, I see no hypocrisy in a muslim student (whether they are from the US or elsewhere) chosing to protest.
I think the point might be that a student (Muslim or not)—from a repressive country such as China or some of the Middle East countries—who publicly protests perceptions of a religious freedom act in Indiana while not also publicly protesting against the obvious horrible actions of his or her homeland, perhaps even while being here through acceptance of funding from that repressive country, would clearly be displaying hypocrisy.
So this comment is not restricted to international students: I would suggest that any members of the university community who publicly protest this law, but who are silent about Valpo's presence in China or economic cooperation with some Middle East countries and the lack of a similar public statement by the administration about terrible civil rights actions in those countries, also would be exhibiting hypocrisy.
valpopal - First, I don't think that any of us know whether muslim students protesting are from the US or elsewhere.
I do think you raise some interesting points and valid concerns about involvement from students from the Middle East and China. Perhaps they wish the could protest in those countries, but have huge constraints that prevent them from doing so. That is unfortunate, but I do not think that it makes them hypocrits. And please do not lump all Middle Eastern countries together - Jordan and Morocco are vastly different than Saudi Arabia and Iran in the civil rights allowed to citizens.
As far as Valpo's presence in China, I do think that leaving would be a huge mistake. Valpo's (and any other university's) presence in China helps students become more worldly and think more critically with a worldwide perspective. Furthermore, the influence of Valpo's professors and students can only further subtle cultural changes that already are happening in China.
Quote from: vu84v2 on April 04, 2015, 03:40:37 PM
valpopal - First, I don't think that any of us know whether muslim students protesting are from the US or elsewhere.
I do think you raise some interesting points and valid concerns about involvement from students from the Middle East and China. Perhaps they wish the could protest in those countries, but have huge constraints that prevent them from doing so. That is unfortunate, but I do not think that it makes them hypocrits. And please do not lump all Middle Eastern countries together - Jordan and Morocco are vastly different than Saudi Arabia and Iran in the civil rights allowed to citizens.
As far as Valpo's presence in China, I do think that leaving would be a huge mistake. Valpo's (and any other university's) presence in China helps students become more worldly and think more critically with a worldwide perspective. Furthermore, the influence of Valpo's professors and students can only further subtle cultural changes that already are happening in China.
Thanks for your comments, but just to clarify: I was explaining a point made by someone else, and I didn't single out Muslim students: I said "a student (Muslim or not)" in my post. Also, I do know many of the protesters and whether or not they are from the US, and I include them among my friends. In addition, I didn't "lump all Middle Eastern countries together": I wrote "some of the Middle East countries." Finally, I do not have any problem with the China overseas program. In fact, I actively assist it (as I do Muslim students on campus). But I would feel inconsistent, if not hypocritical, if I protested the Indiana statute yet engaged in encouraging and assisting the China program with my support while not also publicly speaking with equal vigor against its civil rights policies.
Thank you for clarifying. You did indeed say "some of the Middle East countries" and I apologize for not considering that.
Thank you for your work assisting the China overseas program and the Muslim students on campus at Valpo. Efforts like this only help the world we live in and the valued students at Valpo. Perhaps we can share experiences and insights one day. I have a lot of experience with some facets of these cultural issues and it sounds like you have a lot of experience.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 04, 2015, 09:01:44 AM
QuoteCompletely agree. This 'new age' has become overly sensitive to anything that could be taken as discrimination. I blame it on giving ribbons/awards to everyone that participates in an event, rather than the true 1 winner and everyone else is a loser model that we all grew up with
Quotetx, I agree, it's like giving out cookies and kool-aid after little league baseball games is the forever norm now. Heck, on Tuesday, when I go vote, I wouldn't shocked to see the opportunity to grab a cookie or cup of coffee on my way out of the library doors, even though that is illegal entice to skew the vote.
So I guess both of you feel that it was acceptable for Wichita East High School to disallow a student with Downs Syndrome from wearing an athletic jacket with a varsity letter on it simply because he didn't compete in recognized varsity competition? See:
http://www.wfsb.com/story/28635455/ks-high-school-says-no-to-varsity-letter-for-special-needs-student (http://www.wfsb.com/story/28635455/ks-high-school-says-no-to-varsity-letter-for-special-needs-student)
Or, what about the severely autistic student who, because of his profound manifestations of disability, cannot satisfy regular diploma requirements but instead earns an "IEP", "occupational", or some other alternate type of high school diploma? Is that equivalent to awarding a ribbon to the 12th man on the deal team too?
Where do you draw the line between accommodation-like practices to prevent overt and covert discrimination and everyone getting milk and cookies?
Seriously dude? Completely different situations when you have someone with a true disability versus someone that is fully able and just isn't good at something. Not worthy of a full response, since you went that direction...
The bottom line is that Pence is a moron to legislate this law. It is a waste of time and energy that could been placed on more critical issues.
Some may find this informative:
The Catholic Church's take on the persecution of Christians
Insight from the archbishop of Washington, Cardinal Donald Wuerl
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4154874619001/the-catholic-churchs-take-on-the-persecution-of-christians-/?#sp=show-clips (http://video.foxnews.com/v/4154874619001/the-catholic-churchs-take-on-the-persecution-of-christians-/?#sp=show-clips)
There was also a very good article on CNN's website written by Cardinal Timothy Dolan and two others about how christians and those of other faiths are being perscuted and killed because of their faith. Clearly the acts of very bad and evil people.
An important queston is, "what should the US do?"
Quote from: valpotx on April 05, 2015, 12:10:09 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 04, 2015, 09:01:44 AM
QuoteCompletely agree. This 'new age' has become overly sensitive to anything that could be taken as discrimination. I blame it on giving ribbons/awards to everyone that participates in an event, rather than the true 1 winner and everyone else is a loser model that we all grew up with
Quotetx, I agree, it's like giving out cookies and kool-aid after little league baseball games is the forever norm now. Heck, on Tuesday, when I go vote, I wouldn't shocked to see the opportunity to grab a cookie or cup of coffee on my way out of the library doors, even though that is illegal entice to skew the vote.
So I guess both of you feel that it was acceptable for Wichita East High School to disallow a student with Downs Syndrome from wearing an athletic jacket with a varsity letter on it simply because he didn't compete in recognized varsity competition? See:
http://www.wfsb.com/story/28635455/ks-high-school-says-no-to-varsity-letter-for-special-needs-student (http://www.wfsb.com/story/28635455/ks-high-school-says-no-to-varsity-letter-for-special-needs-student)
Or, what about the severely autistic student who, because of his profound manifestations of disability, cannot satisfy regular diploma requirements but instead earns an "IEP", "occupational", or some other alternate type of high school diploma? Is that equivalent to awarding a ribbon to the 12th man on the deal team too?
Where do you draw the line between accommodation-like practices to prevent overt and covert discrimination and everyone getting milk and cookies?
Seriously dude? Completely different situations when you have someone with a true disability versus someone that is fully able and just isn't good at something. Not worthy of a full response, since you went that direction...
Thank you for answering. You don't need to provide a full response; you've already answered my question.