Heard rumors of football going to become scholarshiped... Any thoughts?
Anyone hear anything?
Quote from: vu16 on November 02, 2015, 11:09:51 AM
Heard rumors of football going to become scholarshiped... Any thoughts?
Anyone hear anything?
I doubt it would be anytime soon. If we can't win in the Pioneer League, what are our chances in a scholarship conference? It would also change the Title IX landscape at VU, which I doubt happens anytime soon.
Do I think that a school that has a strong commitment to athletics (especially football), a strong academic reputation, and access to a large population within a 3 hour drive could be competitive in FCS scholarship football? Yes, I could see that happening. Things that need to happen:
We need to be competitive in the PFL, and provide the students/alumni/parents/local community with a great gameday experience for the next several years. Increased student population and support. A donor (or donors) with the vision to provide the facilities and infrastructure ($$$ for coaching staff and scholarships) necessary to be competitive in FCS scholarship football.
We really need to be competitive in the PFL for a decade before we can even entertain such thoughts of going scholarship for football. If we do have people with this vision, I'm sure scholarship football could only enhance the commitment to a perennial top 50-60 team in Men's Basketball.
I understand that there have been VERY, make that VERY VERY early and preliminary discussions concerning this.
Quote from: vu72 on November 03, 2015, 12:03:40 PM
I understand that there have been VERY, make that VERY VERY early and preliminary discussions concerning this.
Yeah, like 2030 or 2040 vision
I think the Valpo Hockey topic has more credibility than this.
Agree that it would be a ways off but there's no requirement that Valpo be successful as a non scholarship program prior to becoming a scholarship program. Scholarship would simply change the focus of recruiting and make the program more attractive the moment it's announced. What happened prior wouldn't really matter.
Quote from: VU2624 on November 04, 2015, 11:20:45 AM
Agree that it would be a ways off but there's no requirement that Valpo be successful as a non scholarship program prior to becoming a scholarship program. Scholarship would simply change the focus of recruiting and make the program more attractive the moment it's announced. What happened prior wouldn't really matter.
Agree that there is no requirement. Where is the $$$ for a scholarship program? We still have many alumni that don't understand the football move to Division I, which was required. We have many that have been frustrated enough to say that if we are not going to put decent effort into football, get rid of football. The recruiting focus would still be the same (IMO) - looking for qualified student athletes to come play football for Valpo. It might become easier to compete with universities offering scholarship $$ if we are offering similar amounts, but we would still need to find student-athletes to pay their own way.
Quote from: covufan on November 04, 2015, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: VU2624 on November 04, 2015, 11:20:45 AM
Agree that it would be a ways off but there's no requirement that Valpo be successful as a non scholarship program prior to becoming a scholarship program. Scholarship would simply change the focus of recruiting and make the program more attractive the moment it's announced. What happened prior wouldn't really matter.
Agree that there is no requirement. Where is the $$$ for a scholarship program? We still have many alumni that don't understand the football move to Division I, which was required. We have many that have been frustrated enough to say that if we are not going to put decent effort into football, get rid of football. The recruiting focus would still be the same (IMO) - looking for qualified student athletes to come play football for Valpo. It might become easier to compete with universities offering scholarship $$ if we are offering similar amounts, but we would still need to find student-athletes to pay their own way.
All true.
We were at one point in our not so distant FB history (1990-1992) D-II (i.e., scholarship) before eventually being a founding member of the PFL. So there was maybe an attempt at scholarshipping the FB program. But it might also have been an attempt to play scholarship programs (Hillsdale, Grand Valley, Indianapolis etc.) without funding scholarships as an interim measure. Tom Horne went 5-21-1 in those years. And prior to being in the Midwest Intercollegiate FB Conference we were in the D-III Heartland Conference from 1978-1989.
Quote from: VULB#62 on November 04, 2015, 02:39:44 PM
We were at one point in our not so distant FB history (1990-1992) D-II (i.e., scholarship) before eventually being a founding member of the PFL. So there was maybe an attempt at scholarshipping the FB program. But it might also have been an attempt to play scholarship programs (Hillsdale, Grand Valley, Indianapolis etc.) without funding scholarships as an interim measure. Tom Horne went 5-21-1 in those years. And prior to being in the Midwest Intercollegiate FB Conference we were in the D-III Heartland Conference from 1978-1989.
According to cfbdatawarehouse, our football classification was:
1937-1940 N/A
1941-1972 NCAA College Division (Small College)
1973-1978 NCAA Division III
1979-1992 NCAA Division II
1993-20XX NCAA Division I-AA
And the number of football scholarships for a NCAA Division II team is currently 36, but I don't know what the limits were in the '79-'92 years. The conference we were in at that time may have had scholarship restrictions as well. I only recall a handful of scholarships for football in the '80's.
I may be mistaken, but that 36 is the max for D-II but fewer can be given; the same with FCS that maxes at 65 but fewer can be given (e.g., NEC and Patriot). Whereas FBS requires 85, period.
unless you are screwed like USC with the loss of scholarships.
Quote from: VULB#62 on November 04, 2015, 02:39:44 PM
We were at one point in our not so distant FB history (1990-1992) D-II (i.e., scholarship) before eventually being a founding member of the PFL. So there was maybe an attempt at scholarshipping the FB program. But it might also have been an attempt to play scholarship programs (Hillsdale, Grand Valley, Indianapolis etc.) without funding scholarships as an interim measure. Tom Horne went 5-21-1 in those years. And prior to being in the Midwest Intercollegiate FB Conference we were in the D-III Heartland Conference from 1978-1989.
I looked up the word scholarshipping and only found it in the urban dictionary. (don't worry--this definition is clean)
the act of looking at a scholarship website and praying that something applicable will turn up. then mailing out countless applications in hopes that someone else will be kind enough to pay your substantial college debts for you
"I wasted a perfectly good Saturday scholarshipping by writing a fictitious letter to my congressman about suggestions for controlling overpopulation in the United States for the Negative Population Growth (NPG) scholarship"
Quote from: bbtds on November 05, 2015, 08:57:27 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on November 04, 2015, 02:39:44 PM
We were at one point in our not so distant FB history (1990-1992) D-II (i.e., scholarship) before eventually being a founding member of the PFL. So there was maybe an attempt at scholarshipping the FB program. But it might also have been an attempt to play scholarship programs (Hillsdale, Grand Valley, Indianapolis etc.) without funding scholarships as an interim measure. Tom Horne went 5-21-1 in those years. And prior to being in the Midwest Intercollegiate FB Conference we were in the D-III Heartland Conference from 1978-1989.
I looked up the word scholarshipping and only found it in the urban dictionary. (don't worry--this definition is clean)
the act of looking at a scholarship website and praying that something applicable will turn up. then mailing out countless applications in hopes that someone else will be kind enough to pay your substantial college debts for you
"I wasted a perfectly good Saturday scholarshipping by writing a fictitious letter to my congressman about suggestions for controlling overpopulation in the United States for the Negative Population Growth (NPG) scholarship"
I think you're hairsplitterating.
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I've looked into my crystal ball and this is what will happen:
1. Idaho and NMSU are exited from the Sun Belt as football only members.
2. VU announces a press conference to state that it will start offering football scholarships.
3. Eastern Kentucky moves to the Sun Belt.
4. Tired of having football in a separate league, Valpo moves to the OVC to take EKU's place as an all sports member.
5. UIC and another soccer school also move to the OVC so that it can start sponsoring the sport.
6. With UIC in the league, the OVC basketball tournament is held in Chicago.
7. Valpo and UIC co-host the OVC tournament and both ADs send a fax to the HL office which says "Enjoy your tournament in Detroit."
8. Valpo wins 2025 FCS NC by beating Delaware, 20-16.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on November 05, 2015, 01:30:21 PM
I've looked into my crystal ball and this is what will happen:
1. Idaho and NMSU are exited from the Sun Belt as football only members.
2. VU announces a press conference to state that it will start offering football scholarships.
3. Eastern Kentucky moves to the Sun Belt.
4. Tired of having football in a separate league, Valpo moves to the OVC to take EKU's place as an all sports member.
5. UIC and another soccer school also move to the OVC so that it can start sponsoring the sport.
6. With UIC in the league, the OVC basketball tournament is held in Chicago.
7. Valpo and UIC co-host the OVC tournament and both ADs send a fax to the HL office which says "Enjoy your tournament in Detroit."
8. Valpo wins 2025 FCS NC by beating Delaware, 20-16.
Scary how this will all spill out, but you forgot item 2a: Valpo expands Brown Field to 12,000 seats to attract OVC invite and accommodate OVC crowds ;)
Quote from: crusaderjoe on November 05, 2015, 01:30:21 PM
I've looked into my crystal ball and this is what will happen:
1. Idaho and NMSU are exited from the Sun Belt as football only members.
2. VU announces a press conference to state that it will start offering football scholarships.
3. Eastern Kentucky moves to the Sun Belt.
4. Tired of having football in a separate league, Valpo moves to the OVC to take EKU's place as an all sports member.
5. UIC and another soccer school also move to the OVC so that it can start sponsoring the sport.
6. With UIC in the league, the OVC basketball tournament is held in Chicago.
7. Valpo and UIC co-host the OVC tournament and both ADs send a fax to the HL office which says "Enjoy your tournament in Detroit."
8. Valpo wins 2025 FCS NC by beating Delaware, 20-16.
You also forgot what women's sport or sports we added to remain in compliance.
And that the OVC tourney played in Chicago was an attendance disaster.
Still points for thinking outside the box.....
Quote from: a3uge on November 05, 2015, 10:12:33 AMI think you're hairsplitterating.
Good one. I have enjoyed having some of the vocabulary explained. We are all the more educated for it.
QuoteYou also forgot what women's sport or sports we added to remain in compliance.
And that the OVC tourney played in Chicago was an attendance disaster.
Still points for thinking outside the box.....
Quotebut you forgot item 2a: Valpo expands Brown Field to 12,000 seats to attract OVC invite and accommodate OVC crowds
In reading my tea leaves, I've been advised that we have potential fixes for some of your concerns: 1) add womens' crew to maintain Title IX compliance; and 2) while we're fundraising for upgrades for a 12K football stadium, play our home games at Merrillville High School (capacity 7K), and if possible, put temporary seating in the end zones to possibly get to 9 or 10K when needed.
Ah, who are we kidding...none of this is ever going to happen :crazy:, except for maybe EKU moving to the Sun Belt at some point.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on November 06, 2015, 08:28:50 AM
In reading my tea leaves, I've been advised that we have potential fixes for some of your concerns: 1) add womens' crew to maintain Title IX compliance; and 2) while we're fundraising for upgrades for a 12K football stadium, play our home games at Merrillville High School (capacity 7K), and if possible, put temporary seating in the end zones to possibly get to 9 or 10K when needed.
Ah, who are we kidding...none of this is ever going to happen :crazy:, except for maybe EKU moving to the Sun Belt at some point.
Ah.... so that is your #9 crystal ball prediction. :thumbsup:
I wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference. Even when teams like USD go to the playoffs they take a beating so really....what's the point? I'd rather watch Valpo play in the D3 playoffs and watch GOOD football then to cheer for one of the worst 3 schools in D1 every year. I watched the D3 championship game last year between Whitewater and Mt Union and it was exciting football. The reasons fan's leave our games isn't because they aren't true football fans and want Valpo to lose; they don't want to watch BAD football. I watch my community high school football team play every Friday night because it's GOOD football games. Most times they win...sometimes they lose but the level competition makes it enjoyable to watch. I'd drive to Valpo for every home game from Chicago if the games were good but they are horrible to watch. I've seen Lake Forest College play St. Norbert College (neither ranked in D3) and it was a great football game. In the last 2 years; I've only seen Valpo play one great game that was exciting to watch and it was actually their loss to USD last year. Yes ,I want to see Valpo win more but I also want to see good competitive football not a game against Sacred Heart where they dominate us then a game against College of Faith which also was just a travesty of a game.
You can't just pick and choose what sports play in what division. If you're a Division I athletics department, all your teams must participate at the Division I level. The only exception comes in the opposite direction - if you're a lower division athletics department, you can choose one sport that "plays up", which you see a good bit for example with ice hockey.
Or like D-III Johns Hopkins that plays D-I Lacrosse and has won a couple NCAA titles.
Quote from: valpochgo on November 06, 2015, 10:33:30 AMI wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference
If a school plays D1 basketball all sports have to be D1.
Quote from: IndyValpo on November 06, 2015, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: valpochgo on November 06, 2015, 10:33:30 AMI wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference
If a school plays D1 basketball all sports have to be D1.
Is this not 20+ year old info?
Quote from: covufan on November 06, 2015, 11:37:19 AM
Quote from: IndyValpo on November 06, 2015, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: valpochgo on November 06, 2015, 10:33:30 AMI wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference
If a school plays D1 basketball all sports have to be D1.
Is this not 20+ year old info?
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Yes, and has been discussed numerous times. I don't understand the point in any event. Because the PFL champion doesn't do well in the playoffs we should join a different conference? Would Mt. Union do well in the BCS playoffs? The PFL plays very competitive games. We just haven't been part of to many of them of late. We need to improve our program, that's the bottom line. Has very little to nothing to do with the PFL's success in the playoffs.
Quote from: IndyValpo on November 06, 2015, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: valpochgo on November 06, 2015, 10:33:30 AMI wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference
If a school plays D1 basketball all sports have to be D1.
Is this concept neutral? You know, I thought it was but it appears that Holy Cross plays D-I basketball, D-I men's hockey, and D-III women's hockey if I'm reading their schedules correctly. Who is our resident college hockey expert here?
The automatic bid that the PFL now enjoys (but not necessarily the results of the the first round games) is a bonus that is more cosmetic than actual. The PFL has had for decades a mission to provide non-scholarship FB for D-I schools who do not wish to undertake the large costs and pressures of a scholarship football program. Football at PFL schools is an add-on to the spectrum of sports offered by the individual schools and in no case that I can see (except maybe for Campbell somewhat?) does FB exist as the tail that wags the dog. We discuss this annually and make the same pronouncements year after year. It is what it is and will be that way going forward. As 72 alludes to below, we should just be thinking of ways, and doing things, to become better within that chosen context and leave it at that.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on November 06, 2015, 12:44:24 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on November 06, 2015, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: valpochgo on November 06, 2015, 10:33:30 AMI wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference
If a school plays D1 basketball all sports have to be D1.
Is this concept neutral? You know, I thought it was but it appears that Holy Cross plays D-I basketball, D-I men's hockey, and D-III women's hockey if I'm reading their schedules correctly. Who is our resident college hockey expert here?
I'm not that expert. But best as I can tell College of the Holy Cross is in The New England Hockey Conference (NEHC) that has both a men's a women's division. The women's division, where only the women's team plays, is a mixture of D-II and D-III schools. On the other hand, NCAA Div-I has only 35 or 36 colleges that can qualify for the NCAA tournament and Holy Cross is not among them. So, maybe in this case the NCAA has granted some sort of waiver and women's ice hockey is treated almost like a club sport. BTW D-II ice hockey does not offer an NCAA tournament while D-III does. Don't know why.
As long as you don't violate equal scholarships for men and women sports based on Title IX; A university can have teams compete in different divisions. Johns Hopkins and a few other colleges do it and that's why the PFL exist to get around Title IX laws. The D1 basketball dictates D1 in every other sport is not a fact. It's college football that was the catalyst for Title IX not basketball.
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This is an interesting theoretical conversation. Football scholarships at Valpo will certainly not happen; they are making a decent profit with what they have now and scholarships would cut the skim.
Quote from: valpochgo on November 07, 2015, 09:08:54 PM
As long as you don't violate equal scholarships for men and women sports based on Title IX; A university can have teams compete in different divisions. Johns Hopkins and a few other colleges do it and that's why the PFL exist to get around Title IX laws. The D1 basketball dictates D1 in every other sport is not a fact. It's college football that was the catalyst for Title IX not basketball.
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I get this; however, in the examples given in this thread (e.g. Hopkins, certain college hockey programs) those schools by and large were primarily non D-I schools who chose to compete in a designated D-I sport. In the Holy Cross women's ice hockey example, it's the reverse—that is, you have a D-I school that primarily competes in the PL (with D-I football no less) with a sport that is competing in a lesser division (D-III). As '62 suggests, I'm also guessing that there would have been some kind of grandfathering or NCAA waiver for this to have taken place. I mean Valpo can't just decide to start a D-III women's ice hockey program next year as a D-I institution, can they?
It is all about the money. If you want a part of the basketball pot then you need to be D1 is everything. There is the exception for football where you must be D1 but can offer a non-scholarship program (PFL). So, in the case of LaCrosse, or Ice Hockey, schools can decide to play D1 if they want and can play D2 or D3 for other sports.(Minnesota Duluth is D2 and plays D1 in Hockey as does other Minnesota schools like Mankato). Basketball makes the rules because of the huge TV deal.
Schools that are not Division 1 in all sports may play ONE men's and ONE women's sport at the Division 1 level. These cannot be Basketball or Football. If a school wishes to play Football or Basketball (men's or women's) at the D1 level, they must play all sports at the D1 level.
Many schools play soccer, hockey or lacrosse at the D1 level, while maintaining a D2 or D3 standing in all other sports.
ValpoHoops - this was a very clear description of the rules.
Quote from: ValpoHoops on November 08, 2015, 07:49:14 AM
Schools that are not Division 1 in all sports may play ONE men's and ONE women's sport at the Division 1 level. These cannot be Basketball or Football. If a school wishes to play Football or Basketball (men's or women's) at the D1 level, they must play all sports at the D1 level.
Many schools play soccer, hockey or lacrosse at the D1 level, while maintaining a D2 or D3 standing in all other sports.
This still doesn't answer my question. (Good information though, and this is what I suspected.)
Holy Cross Basketball - D-I
Holy Cross Football - D-I
Holy Cross Men's Ice Hockey - D-I
Holy Cross Women's Ice Hockey - D-III
Why?
How many years has Holy Cross had women's hockey? I mean if it's been about 5 years, then I understand starting small, but if it has been more than that, they should move up. If they can have one sport at a lower level, per NCAA guidelines, then they are within the loopholes of the bylaws.
Quote from: valporun on November 08, 2015, 09:41:46 AM
How many years has Holy Cross had women's hockey? I mean if it's been about 5 years, then I understand starting small, but if it has been more than that, they should move up. If they can have one sport at a lower level, per NCAA guidelines, then they are within the loopholes of the bylaws.
That's not crusaderjoe's question based on Valpohoops' response. If a school which plays div I basketball (m or w) or div I football the school is required to play all sports at a div I level according to Valpohoops' response...which I have no reason to doubt for accuracy. So how does Holy Cross play women's hockey at a lower level?
Are we proposing Div.3 hockey at Valpo?
Quote from: crusaderjoe on November 08, 2015, 08:07:51 AM
Quote from: ValpoHoops on November 08, 2015, 07:49:14 AM
Schools that are not Division 1 in all sports may play ONE men's and ONE women's sport at the Division 1 level. These cannot be Basketball or Football. If a school wishes to play Football or Basketball (men's or women's) at the D1 level, they must play all sports at the D1 level.
Many schools play soccer, hockey or lacrosse at the D1 level, while maintaining a D2 or D3 standing in all other sports.
This still doesn't answer my question. (Good information though, and this is what I suspected.)
Holy Cross Basketball - D-I
Holy Cross Football - D-I
Holy Cross Men's Ice Hockey - D-I
Holy Cross Women's Ice Hockey - D-III
Why?
I'm guessing because the Patriot League does not have Women's Hockey. The conference that Holy Cross uses for Women's Hockey is a Div III conference - New England Hockey Conference. Holy Cross is not allowed to compete in the NEHC playoffs nor the Div III playoffs, per wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Hockey_Conference
Quote from: covufan on November 09, 2015, 10:08:52 AM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on November 08, 2015, 08:07:51 AM
Quote from: ValpoHoops on November 08, 2015, 07:49:14 AM
Schools that are not Division 1 in all sports may play ONE men's and ONE women's sport at the Division 1 level. These cannot be Basketball or Football. If a school wishes to play Football or Basketball (men's or women's) at the D1 level, they must play all sports at the D1 level.
Many schools play soccer, hockey or lacrosse at the D1 level, while maintaining a D2 or D3 standing in all other sports.
This still doesn't answer my question. (Good information though, and this is what I suspected.)
Holy Cross Basketball - D-I
Holy Cross Football - D-I
Holy Cross Men's Ice Hockey - D-I
Holy Cross Women's Ice Hockey - D-III
Why?
I'm guessing because the Patriot League does not have Women's Hockey. The conference that Holy Cross uses for Women's Hockey is a Div III conference - New England Hockey Conference. Holy Cross is not allowed to compete in the NEHC playoffs nor the Div III playoffs, per wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Hockey_Conference
That's how they do it. Hc is the only D-I team in the NEHC. So it goes back to what I suggested earlier: without the possibility of participating in either the NEHC playoffs or the D-III playoffs, HC women's hockey is a de facto club program created and maintained as a complementary program for female student athletes. College of the Holy Cross fields 25 sports teams.