http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation (http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation)
I'm sure they're thinking the time is right to capitalize on their recent success, but I don't see it happening. Butler is a Pamida with an outstanding electronics section that rivals anything Walmart or Target has. Unfortunately, other than electronics they're just another Pamida.
Quote from: wh on July 31, 2011, 03:05:52 PM
http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation (http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation)
I'm sure they're thinking the time is right to capitalize on their recent success, but I don't see it happening. Butler is a Pamida with an outstanding electronics section that rivals anything Walmart or Target has. Unfortunately, other than electronics they're just another Pamida.
what's pamida?
Quote from: vuweathernerd on July 31, 2011, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: wh on July 31, 2011, 03:05:52 PM
http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation (http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation)
I'm sure they're thinking the time is right to capitalize on their recent success, but I don't see it happening. Butler is a Pamida with an outstanding electronics section that rivals anything Walmart or Target has. Unfortunately, other than electronics they're just another Pamida.
what's pamida?
A Wal-mart imitation
They seem to want to move to the A-10, which would be expensive and impractical due to extensive travel in schedule. Also, I don't see any real advantage since Sagarin had the two conferences ranked almost evenly at the end of the season:
9 ATLANTIC 10 = 75.28
10 HORIZON = 74.88
Quote from: rlh on July 31, 2011, 03:39:57 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on July 31, 2011, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: wh on July 31, 2011, 03:05:52 PM
http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation (http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation)
I'm sure they're thinking the time is right to capitalize on their recent success, but I don't see it happening. Butler is a Pamida with an outstanding electronics section that rivals anything Walmart or Target has. Unfortunately, other than electronics they're just another Pamida.
what's pamida?
A Wal-mart imitation
Pamida has 200 stores in 17 states (mostly upper Midwest). They are general merchandise retail stores that reside in mostly smaller communities not large enough to attract the Walmarts, Targets and K-Marts of the retail world. The stores themselves are somewhat smaller and yet still offer a variety of merchandise at reasonable prices. With rare exception, they could never compete head-to-head with the big boys, and they don't try. They have a similar business model, only on a smaller scale.
This just shows some Butler fans ignorance....it's about more than just men's basketball y'all
Could have sworn I posted this brillance before, but, what the Butler faithful need is a fourth or fifth place finish in men's basketball to bring them back to reality. This could be the year! ;)
In fairness (though I'm not sure when they all were posted), several of the Butler fans appear to have raised the same points as have been highlighted above. Issues with cost of travel for all the other sports and that the A-10 was not that much better than the HL were all mentioned.
In fact, one of the Butler fans even noted that HL play seems to have prepared Butler pretty well for the NCAA tournament -- an excellent point.
Quote from: wh on July 31, 2011, 05:00:32 PM
Quote from: rlh on July 31, 2011, 03:39:57 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on July 31, 2011, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: wh on July 31, 2011, 03:05:52 PM
http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation (http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation)
I'm sure they're thinking the time is right to capitalize on their recent success, but I don't see it happening. Butler is a Pamida with an outstanding electronics section that rivals anything Walmart or Target has. Unfortunately, other than electronics they're just another Pamida.
what's pamida?
A Wal-mart imitation
Pamida has 200 stores in 17 states (mostly upper Midwest). They are general merchandise retail stores that reside in mostly smaller communities not large enough to attract the Walmarts, Targets and K-Marts of the retail world. The stores themselves are somewhat smaller and yet still offer a variety of merchandise at reasonable prices. With rare exception, they could never compete head-to-head with the big boys, and they don't try. They have a similar business model, only on a smaller scale.
Haha. This is great! There was a Pamida in the town I grew up in (in central MN) until about the mid 90's when a Walmart came to town.
Quote from: valpofan56 on July 31, 2011, 10:11:52 PM
Quote from: wh on July 31, 2011, 05:00:32 PM
Quote from: rlh on July 31, 2011, 03:39:57 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on July 31, 2011, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: wh on July 31, 2011, 03:05:52 PM
http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation (http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7816/Time-for-a-new-conference-affiliation)
I'm sure they're thinking the time is right to capitalize on their recent success, but I don't see it happening. Butler is a Pamida with an outstanding electronics section that rivals anything Walmart or Target has. Unfortunately, other than electronics they're just another Pamida.
what's pamida?
A Wal-mart imitation
Pamida has 200 stores in 17 states (mostly upper Midwest). They are general merchandise retail stores that reside in mostly smaller communities not large enough to attract the Walmarts, Targets and K-Marts of the retail world. The stores themselves are somewhat smaller and yet still offer a variety of merchandise at reasonable prices. With rare exception, they could never compete head-to-head with the big boys, and they don't try. They have a similar business model, only on a smaller scale.
Haha. This is great! There was a Pamida in the town I grew up in (in central MN) until about the mid 90's when a Walmart came to town.
sounds like your town improved with wal-mart. does pamida still exist anywhere?
A Pamida eh? Whatever floats your boat. The "get out of the Ho League" thread pops up every year, sometimes multiple times. I'm sure 'ya all wanted out of the old Mid-Con for quite a few years.
As usual on a message board, the few that are ignorant of what's at stake are singled out and quoted on another board. Most of us know Butler is not going anywhere, much less the A10. Am I happy with the Horizon? No. Is there a current alternative out there? No. It would take a major shakeup of the A10, MVC and Big East......... then a basketball only league with Butler, Xavier, Marquette, Dayton, Depaul, Memphis, WKU, SIU........ schools within a days drive of Indy that don't play D1 football to satisfy me. Yes, I know this won't happen, so, as I've said many a time on the Butler board, the alternative is to improve the play in the Ho League. Valpo, CSU, Detroit (except for it's coach) and maybe Loyola (which has quite a few nice recruits interested) are doing their part.
Calling Butler a Pamida might get some laughs, but it shows there is ignorance on every message board. Pamida's don't go to the championship game once, let alone consecutive years.
Quote from: staxawax on August 01, 2011, 06:41:20 PM
A Pamida eh? Whatever floats your boat. The "get out of the Ho League" thread pops up every year, sometimes multiple times. I'm sure 'ya all wanted out of the old Mid-Con for quite a few years.
As usual on a message board, the few that are ignorant of what's at stake are singled out and quoted on another board. Most of us know Butler is not going anywhere, much less the A10. Am I happy with the Horizon? No. Is there a current alternative out there? No. It would take a major shakeup of the A10, MVC and Big East......... then a basketball only league with Butler, Xavier, Marquette, Dayton, Depaul, Memphis, WKU, SIU........ schools within a days drive of Indy that don't play D1 football to satisfy me. Yes, I know this won't happen, so, as I've said many a time on the Butler board, the alternative is to improve the play in the Ho League. Valpo, CSU, Detroit (except for it's coach) and maybe Loyola (which has quite a few nice recruits interested) are doing their part.
Calling Butler a Pamida might get some laughs, but it shows there is ignorance on every message board. Pamida's don't go to the championship game once, let alone consecutive years.
I would add that UWM is doing it's part as well.
I'm on board with Stax. I'm always optimistic that the Horizon becomes a consistent multi-bid league, but that takes more than one team to put together an at-large resume. That starts with scheduling, but more importantly, requires that teams who are talented (like Valpo and Milwaukee last year) play with focus and effort in each and every game of the season. The margin for error is razor thin for all non-BCS teams ... you can't afford to let early season games slip away.
IMO, the biggest obstacle the Horizon is facing is that too many (usually 9) teams/fan bases start the season with the mindset that pre-conference/conference games don't matter that much, because they have to win the league tourney to get to the NCAAT anyway. Until multiple teams harbor and work toward NCAAT at-large aspirations, the Horizon will remain exactly what it is.
But like I said, I'm an optimist, so maybe this will be the year we see two (or three or four!) teams in the dance. :thumbsup:
Quote from: vu72 on July 31, 2011, 08:37:46 PM
Could have sworn I posted this brillance before, but, what the Butler faithful need is a fourth or fifth place finish in men's basketball to bring them back to reality. This could be the year! ;)
So, is that your prediction? Can I assume you have Valpo finishing better than fourth or fifth?
Quote from: staxawax on August 01, 2011, 06:41:20 PM
Calling Butler a Pamida might get some laughs, but it shows there is ignorance on every message board. Pamida's don't go to the championship game once, let alone consecutive years.
It wasn't intended to get a laugh, and it wasn't intended to be critical of Butler basketball. I have nothing but admiration for what Butler has accomplished in men's basketball. For re-clarification, Pamida is your entire athletic program, not your men's basketball program. Note my original post:
Butler is a Pamida with an outstanding electronics section that rivals anything Walmart or Target has. Unfortunately, other than electronics they're just another Pamida.
Interpretation: Your basketball program (electronics section) has accomplished more than almost everyone in the Big 6 (Walmarts/Targets) over the past 2-4 years. Unfortunately, in every other respect your athletic program (the rest of your store) is strictly mid-major - mid-major budget, mid-major talent. That's not being critical, it's just calling a spade a spade. Compared to the vast majority of major programs, Butler is a very small private university with limited funds to spend to build a big time athletic program. The only ignorance expressed about this subject are people on your board thinking that having a great men's basketball program is all it takes to go to the next level. The biggest laugh would come from your Athletic Director if he ever read any of the incessant "why don't we move up" posts on your board.
.........which is precisely why Butler would only work in a BBL only conference if it looked elsewhere.
I'll give you your clever "Pamida" reference, but it only makes the rest of the HL look like the corner liquor store, considering the mid-major rest of our program still dominates the league.
I'd be careful about saying that the rest of your program 'dominates' the league. Baseball has never been a strong part of Butler (we always looked forward to playing/beating Butler), neither has softball, though the softball team did better this year than year's past. Your soccer teams are good, but tennis appears middle of the pack. Volleyball did well last year, but not in the several years before that when compared to the top teams (Milwaukee, Valpo). Obviously, success in T&F/CC goes with Butler, but the only sport you truly 'dominate' is men's basketball when looking at the standings in the last few years.
I shouldn't have gone down that road as I did exaggerate. But, I'm glad you get such delight at beating Butler in baseball. Did Valpo win any league championships this past season, or are they still "0-for"?
Horizon League
Titles per University
Milwaukee 106
Butler 93
UIC 56
Detroit 44
Loyola of Chicago 42
Green Bay 41
Wright State 36
Cleveland State 22
Youngstown State 13
Valparaiso 0
Yeah, I know..........just 5 years in the league. But something, anything.
Oops ... I don't like where this discussion is heading. Just like extras in an old Western movie, I'm running for cover before the gunfight breaks out on the main street! :-\
Quote from: zvillehaze on August 02, 2011, 06:19:48 AM
Oops ... I don't like where this discussion is heading. Just like extras in an old Western movie, I'm running for cover before the gunfight breaks out on the main street! :-\
So right haze.......... I'm done here and should have just let the Pamida comment go. I'm just not smart enough to figure these things out sometimes! Peace Valpo!
Quote from: staxawax on August 02, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
I shouldn't have gone down that road as I did exaggerate. But, I'm glad you get such delight at beating Butler in baseball. Did Valpo win any league championships this past season, or are they still "0-for"?
Horizon League
Titles per University
Milwaukee 106
Butler 93
UIC 56
Detroit 44
Loyola of Chicago 42
Green Bay 41
Wright State 36
Cleveland State 22
Youngstown State 13
Valparaiso 0
Yeah, I know..........just 5 years in the league. But something, anything.
The issue with your statement is that you claimed Butler's overall program dominates the HL, when only men's basketball could make such a claim. Winning a title every few years in a sport is not dominating anything. Butler has only had consecutive championship wins in men's basketball from what I am seeing in the HL archives. I never made any comment about Valpo dominating anything, so your attempted incendiary remark about our program really is just you backing away from your false statement...
My baseball comment simply had to do with personal experience when we knew we were playing Butler, as the program obviously does not place a lot of emphasis on the sport.
Quote from: staxawax on August 02, 2011, 08:59:17 AM
Quote from: zvillehaze on August 02, 2011, 06:19:48 AM
Oops ... I don't like where this discussion is heading. Just like extras in an old Western movie, I'm running for cover before the gunfight breaks out on the main street! :-\
So right haze.......... I'm done here and should have just let the Pamida comment go. I'm just not smart enough to figure these things out sometimes! Peace Valpo!
I poked some fun at some of your fans for thinking your basketball success puts you in position to move to prime time, and you returned a nice shot about our impressive "titles won" performance since joining the HL. Pretty harmless summertime fun, I say.
By the way, I don't know which bothers me worse - Milw 106 titles Valpo 0 or YSU 13 titles Valpo 0. ;)
Quote from: staxawax on August 02, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
I shouldn't have gone down that road as I did exaggerate. But, I'm glad you get such delight at beating Butler in baseball. Did Valpo win any league championships this past season, or are they still "0-for"?
Horizon League
Titles per University
Milwaukee 106
Butler 93
UIC 56
Detroit 44
Loyola of Chicago 42
Green Bay 41
Wright State 36
Cleveland State 22
Youngstown State 13
Valparaiso 0
Yeah, I know..........just 5 years in the league. But something, anything.
# Titles # Years in HL Titles per year
Milwaukee 106 18 5.888888889
Butler 93 32 2.90625
UIC 56 18 3.111111111
Detroit 44 32 1.375
Loyola of Chicago 42 32 1.3125
Green Bay 41 18 2.277777778
Wright State 36 18 2
Cleveland State 22 18 1.222222222
Youngstown State 13 11 1.181818182
Valparaiso 0 5 0
Yes Butler may have a lot of titles, but both UIC and Milwaukee have more titles per year in the HL.
Valpo clearly needs to step up their effort in all sports, which I think we are doing. Hopefully, we'll see some improvement in the next 5 years.
Quote from: wh on August 02, 2011, 02:30:09 PM
Quote from: staxawax on August 02, 2011, 08:59:17 AM
Quote from: zvillehaze on August 02, 2011, 06:19:48 AM
Oops ... I don't like where this discussion is heading. Just like extras in an old Western movie, I'm running for cover before the gunfight breaks out on the main stre
et! :-\
So right haze.......... I'm done here and should have just let the Pamida comment go. I'm just not smart enough to figure these things out sometimes! Peace Valpo!
I poked some fun at some of your fans for thinking your basketball success puts you in position to move to prime time, and you returned a nice shot about our impressive "titles won" performance since joining the HL. Pretty harmless summertime fun, I say.
By the way, I don't know which bothers me worse - Milw 106 titles Valpo 0 or YSU 13 titles Valpo 0. ;)
YSU's titles all have come in track and field, I believe. those are sports in which Valpo fields about a quarter of a full squad. As a result we have had individual conference championships in those sports but will likely never have a team championship. Same goes for Swimming and Diving
Quote from: vu72 on August 02, 2011, 06:07:40 PM
YSU's titles all have come in track and field, I believe. those are sports in which Valpo fields about a quarter of a full squad. As a result we have had individual conference championships in those sports but will likely never have a team championship. Same goes for Swimming and Diving
Why do we participate in these sports unless we're going to have full teams? No team competition, no chance for team wins, an embarrassing public perception that we're either too small or too inept to pull together a full team. It seems so obviously ridiculous that I'm wondering if there is more to the story than this?
Quote from: wh on August 03, 2011, 07:01:29 AM
Quote from: vu72 on August 02, 2011, 06:07:40 PM
YSU's titles all have come in track and field, I believe. those are sports in which Valpo fields about a quarter of a full squad. As a result we have had individual conference championships in those sports but will likely never have a team championship. Same goes for Swimming and Diving
Why do we participate in these sports unless we're going to have full teams? No team competition, no chance for team wins, an embarrassing public perception that we're either too small or too inept to pull together a full team. It seems so obviously ridiculous that I'm wondering if there is more to the story than this?
you have to have a certain amount of D-1 sports to play D-1 basketball, so I'm guessing that might be the overriding factor. I'm not sure what the number is, but I'm pretty sure there is a minimum. I would guess that some of these sports are less expensive to run also, which would account for some of it. Personally, I've always been amazed at how well we have competed some years with such limited facilities and scholarships available in many of the "minor" sports
If I remember correctly Valpo built a brand new Tennis complex several years back. Yet the mens tennis team was 0-7 against HL opponents this last season. What kind of scholarships are given out that we can't improve at all in mens tennis?
Quote from: wh on August 03, 2011, 07:01:29 AM
Quote from: vu72 on August 02, 2011, 06:07:40 PM
YSU's titles all have come in track and field, I believe. those are sports in which Valpo fields about a quarter of a full squad. As a result we have had individual conference championships in those sports but will likely never have a team championship. Same goes for Swimming and Diving
Why do we participate in these sports unless we're going to have full teams? No team competition, no chance for team wins, an embarrassing public perception that we're either too small or too inept to pull together a full team. It seems so obviously ridiculous that I'm wondering if there is more to the story than this?
My guess is that these sports were historically put in place but not fully funded in order to draw more students to the university (not necessarily to draw more student athletes per se) and were used as a student recruiting tool to help increase overall enrollment. This is more akin to D-III level thinking more so than D-I because you are basically offering sporting opportunities for students to partake in them in order to offer potential students an "overall academic and athletic experience" without having to pay or worry about offering either a full or partial athletic scholarship (eg. Title IX). It therefore doesn't matter if these teams get waxed in D-I competition because academic tuition dollars have already been paid because the kid has chosen to attend VU academically and "oh by the way will also run track" as part of that experience. This is a very general context but you get the point.
Another part of the problem with track is the lack of on-campus facility to lure quality track athletes to VU. Without a campus track to use as a selling point to recruits, Coach Moore and his staff have a very, very tough sell to anyone who wants to continue running in college and at VU. I'll admit, when I was considering VU, I was looking more at the music program, and the fact that there was cross country and track helped too because I wanted to keep running, but knew that I wasn't getting any scholarship offers. After that, I saw the conditions of our track facilities, and understood why the team wasn't very big, but we've had exceptional individuals over the years.
Just a couple things.
To the Butler fan clinging to the basketball-only league - WKU is not basketball-only, they play football in the Sun Belt. Tell Marquette and other basketball Big East schools that they should let the football schools go and team up with you.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on August 05, 2011, 03:18:52 AM
Just a couple things.
To the Butler fan clinging to the basketball-only league - WKU is not basketball-only, they play football in the Sun Belt. Tell Marquette and other basketball Big East schools that they should let the football schools go and team up with you.
If the Big East split takes place it will be on the basis of growing the Big East football brand; those basketball-only schools won't have a say in the matter. That's the theory, anyway. TCU makes 17 schools, but with only 9 for football. If they want to get to 12 so they can have their title game, that makes 20. Does that model work? If Kansas and K-State ditch the fading Big 12 for the Big East, does that do enough to ditch the basketball-only schools and keep a strong enough basketball brand?
Butler fans at that point would just be hoping and praying that some generous new league official would think "Hey, adding Butler to our league could make some sense." Regardless of whether it's even remotely realistic or not, I still hate the idea. It involves way too much time taking and "wait and see" approach instead of being proactive and finding another solution if that's what is truly desired.
To me, if you compare the MVC vs. the Horizon, the MVC has a pretty significant upper hand. Historical success, facilities, fan following and marketing potential, that's a league that needs some direction and a shot in the arm in terms of media attention, but it's really not that close. Their public universities are independent and don't live in the shadows of bigger state schools. Creighton and Bradley have a tremendous following with their local fans and the facilities to be really, really good programs with the right pitch.
Not that I hate the Horizon - I actually think it's a really competitive league with some good basketball, but it's an absolute marketing dud.
There is talk down here of UT possibly going independent in football, which would cause some shifts I am sure. UT could definitely support itself as a fully independent athletics program, being one of the largest schools in the nation with a huge athletics budget. I doubt it happens, but due to the Big 12 movement it wouldn't completely surprise me in a few years.
"I'm always optimistic that the Horizon becomes a consistent multi-bid league, but that takes more than one team to put together an at-large resume. That starts with scheduling, but more importantly, requires that teams who are talented (like Valpo and Milwaukee last year) play with focus and effort in each and every game of the season. The margin for error is razor thin for all non-BCS teams ... you can't afford to let early season games slip away."
:thumbsup:
zville, I just couldn't agree with this more.