Just saw this! Now what will the Board decide to do with all that land! Murfreesboro is about 25 miles Southeast of Nashville.
https://www.dnj.com/story/news/2018/06/22/mtsu-talks-valparaiso-university-move-law-school-murfreesboro/726670002/
Here's MTSU's announcement from their university web site. Pretty much the same information as above. Hopefully, if this goes through VU will get something positive in addition to removing what apparently was a financially struggling program. I would imagine that there are numerous Valpo alumni that will be sorry to see the Law School go.
http://mtsunews.com/mtsu-valparaiso-law-school-talks/
Does this essentially mean that all prior graduates just trace their degree to MTSU if this goes through? Meaning that any degree verifications would have to be through their office? I don't get what this actually means from a logistics standpoint, as I assume that most of the staff won't move.
Quote from: valpotx on June 23, 2018, 02:25:05 PM
Does this essentially mean that all prior graduates just trace their degree to MTSU if this goes through? Meaning that any degree verifications would have to be through their office? I don't get what this actually means from a logistics standpoint, as I assume that most of the staff won't move.
I guess it is kinda like a college closing like, Say, St. Joes. That doesn't answer your question but what ever the answer is would apply to previous Valpo law grads. The big advantage for MTSU is the acreditdation, which would normally take up a lot of time and the reputation of Valpo law. I would think some faculty would need to go along and that would logically be on Valpo's tab as a part of the cost of unloading the financial drain. Lots of moving parts to be sure.
Here's a detailed accounting of the Law School situation published in March. I don't think this was brought to the attention of members of this forum.
https://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/46463-valpo-deans-resignation-latest-of-troubled-law-schools-woes
https://twitter.com/kevinokeefe/status/1010632846619398144
Can we get a Home and Home with them in basketball as part of the deal?
A done deal.
http://www.wgnsradio.com/agreement-to-transfer-law-school-to-murfreesboro-with-mtsu-and-valparaiso-university-cms-47728
although...from the MTSU view...still a few hurdles
http://mtsunews.com/mtsu-valparaiso-law-school-agreement/
Yeah sounds like it's a done deal regarding the parameters between the two universities but there are tons of different regulatory bodies involved that could torpedo it happening outside of whether or not Valpo and MTSU are on the same page
It hit the Nashville NPR radio station yesterday. The report added that MTSU would reimburse Valpo $2 million primarily for faculty salaries. The law library will be moved as well.
This is a terrible blow to the university and the administration is largely to blame for this debacle. In an era of dramatically declining law school enrollments nationwide, VU was somehow getting larger and larger first year law classes. We now know many of these students were not law school material (which ultimately resulted in low bar exam passage rates and problems with the ABA.) Why VU did not stop and question how we were actually increasing law school enrollment when nationwide enrollment was way down is beyond me. The only explanation is the university looked the other way, was blinded by the dollars the school was bringing in, and did not properly supervise the law school. This closure could have been prevented if proper steps were taken 10 years ago, and now we lose the prestige of having (what was once regarded as) a good law program. It is a stain on the entire institution.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on October 12, 2018, 04:45:57 PM
This is a terrible blow to the university and the administration is largely to blame for this debacle. In an era of dramatically declining law school enrollments nationwide, VU was somehow getting larger and larger first year law classes. We now know many of these students were not law school material (which ultimately resulted in low bar exam passage rates and problems with the ABA.) Why VU did not stop and question how we were actually increasing law school enrollment when nationwide enrollment was way down is beyond me. The only explanation is the university looked the other way, was blinded by the dollars the school was bringing in, and did not properly supervise the law school. This closure could have been prevented if proper steps were taken 10 years ago, and now we lose the prestige of having (what was once regarded as) a good law program. It is a stain on the entire institution.
Paul
I'm curious. What "proper steps" could have closed the decline in nationwide law school enrollment? And how were to attract those lower numbered candidates who had a choice of ND or IU over Valpo? I certainly agree it is a blow to the University. You have a continued hostile view of the administration yet fail to provide specific solutions versus simply complaining about failed efforts.
Shocking news! The deal is off! Now what... ???
https://www.nwitimes.com/news/education/update-tennessee-regulators-reject-valparaiso-university-law-school-s-deal/article_7d59ef08-b4fa-5c41-bf13-4a40cdb7f6a3.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=E0F70624F98C80330FDC36F64F3768B2AE53C8F2
My guess is it closes after this year. There are hardly any students left and it has to be costing tons of money to keep all that staff on with no chance of them transferring.
It was a valiant effort to try to keep the legacy alive but now I don't know what you do next. Honestly, the law school was considered lesser when I went to valpo in 2001. The large increase in law students in the mid-2000s keep it going but when that bubble popped so did our chances. Regional Law schools just aren't a thing anymore with how competitive the job market is.
Quote from: vu72 on October 12, 2018, 08:09:33 PM
I'm curious. What "proper steps" could have closed the decline in nationwide law school enrollment? And how were to attract those lower numbered candidates who had a choice of ND or IU over Valpo? I certainly agree it is a blow to the University. You have a continued hostile view of the administration yet fail to provide specific solutions versus simply complaining about failed efforts.
That's harsh. Clearly the VU administration did not
cause the overall decline in law school enrollments. However, what is crystal clear is that VU Law was admitting too many students who were not qualified (students that probably were not admitted to ND or IU, either). The LSAT scores over time are very clear in this regard. This caused the bar passage rates to dramatically decline. These twin issues brought about the censure from the ABA and the New York Times article, both of which were damaging to the brand and to the University.
The VU administration should have stepped in to insure admission standards were being upheld. A few years ago, the University of Minnesota Law School made a commitment to maintain high admission standards, even if it meant a smaller student body and that the University would subsidize the law school. If such subsidies were not possible for VU, then the decision could have been made to have an orderly wind-down, sale or merger of the law school much earlier. This would not have been a black eye to the University, just a recognition of the changing environment.
As far as the deal with the State of Tennessee and MTSU, if the vote was only 8-5 against I would expect that Valpo and MTSU might try to address the issues that caused dissent and reapply. I know nothing about this sort of approval, but it would seem that it might not be impossible to turn the vote around.
I hope their might be an appeals process but if the ultimate vote is because the other law schools in the state said "no" because they don't want the competition that might be hard to fix on appeals as it seems that was the main concern. I'd imagine if that gets fixed it would need to happen on MTSU's end but their statement seemed to not suggest any attempt to fight the ruling
I think it's fair to criticize the board and president for not being more proactive for reasons above. Nightmare publicity has followed now.
The idea that the heavy hitters in Tennessee don't want MTSU to have a law school seems like an unlikely hurdle for VU and MTSU to clear. I had thought Vanderbilt had a law school. In light of Nashville's growth I would be surprised if Tennesse doesn't say "oh yeah, we meant to talk to you about our plans to start one there! Medical schools are so often opened in state capitals and big cities. I am surprised one didn't open decades ago when the law market was strong!
For about the last 15-20 years I have always heard that there were far too many attorneys for the amount of law positions available including both private and public sector. To me that fact, if true, explains why enrollment is down at law schools around the country, especially at smaller schools. Perhaps that is the reason we were forced to close our Law School, however disappointing that may be. I know of several people with law degrees who are not in the legal field because they couldn't get a job in the legal field.
Quote from: crusadermoe on October 16, 2018, 10:21:25 AM
I think it's fair to criticize the board and president for not being more proactive for reasons above. Nightmare publicity has followed now.
The idea that the heavy hitters in Tennessee don't want MTSU to have a law school seems like an unlikely hurdle for VU and MTSU to clear. I had thought Vanderbilt had a law school. In light of Nashville's growth I would be surprised if Tennesse doesn't say "oh yeah, we meant to talk to you about our plans to start one there! Medical schools are so often opened in state capitals and big cities. I am surprised one didn't open decades ago when the law market was strong!
Vanderbilt and Belmont have private law schools in Nashville and there is a Nashville School of Law that is not accredited.
Many law schools made the decision about 10 years ago to buckle up for the rough ride and take in fewer students, in recognition that law school applications were way down and likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future. For instance, a few years ago the first year class at the University of Iowa was less than 100 students -- a pretty dramatic decline from previous years. The same story repeated itself in law schools across the country. This was not a secret. Everyone -- including VU -- knew that there was a new reality that was going to stick around for 10-15 years at least.
These law schools made the tough-but-necessary decision to admit fewer students in order to keep their law school admission standards high. And guess what? All of these schools survived. What did VU do? Go for LARGER classes -- and lower admission standards. The verdict is now in, and it isn't pretty.
President Heckler, the board, and the law school are all to blame. Maybe this is a harsh sentence but it is entirely fair. They could have made a tough-but-necessary decision 10 years ago like their peers but chose not to take their medicine even though just about everyone else was tightening their belts and riding out the storm.
This is HUGE blow to VU, make no mistake.
Paul
Here is how the story played out in Tennessee. Lots of opposition from the existing law schools. Some curious arguments from the opponents.
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/schools/mtsu/2018/10/18/mtsu-valparaiso-law-school-denied-add-no-value-tennessee-memphis-oppose/1673571002/
Quote from: vu72 on October 15, 2018, 07:41:38 PM
Shocking news! The deal is off! Now what... ???
https://www.nwitimes.com/news/education/update-tennessee-regulators-reject-valparaiso-university-law-school-s-deal/article_7d59ef08-b4fa-5c41-bf13-4a40cdb7f6a3.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=E0F70624F98C80330FDC36F64F3768B2AE53C8F2
What a cluster! We had college educated people running things the last several years, right?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: vu72 on October 15, 2018, 07:41:38 PM
Shocking news! The deal is off! Now what... ???
https://www.nwitimes.com/news/education/update-tennessee-regulators-reject-valparaiso-university-law-school-s-deal/article_7d59ef08-b4fa-5c41-bf13-4a40cdb7f6a3.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=E0F70624F98C80330FDC36F64F3768B2AE53C8F2
If it were up to me, I'd try to strike a deal with IU. Start an IU NW Law School on the Valpo campus.
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Quote from: covufan on October 20, 2018, 08:00:06 PM
Quote from: vu72 on October 15, 2018, 07:41:38 PM
Shocking news! The deal is off! Now what... ???
https://www.nwitimes.com/news/education/update-tennessee-regulators-reject-valparaiso-university-law-school-s-deal/article_7d59ef08-b4fa-5c41-bf13-4a40cdb7f6a3.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=E0F70624F98C80330FDC36F64F3768B2AE53C8F2
What a cluster! We had college educated people running things the last several years, right?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Is it feasible option 1) transfer to TN and then option 2) close.....we're all that was on the table??? What level of education is needed with that type of nearly "no option" decision?
Be careful what you wish for. IU-Northwest could easily become entwined with Valpo.
At some point in VU's growing construction debts and decreasing income, the entire Valpo campus could be sold to the state and become IU-Northwest.
:-X
I think there are probably a couple of issues. 1. once you get an interested party and want to move forward it is a significant process that doesn't leave a lot of time to keep other options on the table. Also 2. By transferring it to another space you get to preserve the buildings for ourselves and our use vs potentially having to see them to another school. My guess is the idea of selling Heritage Hall to another university was pretty unpalatable.
There still may be hope for a relocation. I read the following from a local newspaper article which labeled the decision as a strictly political one.
"The northwest Indiana university had placed MTSU at the top of a short list of institutions to receive its law school at no cost."
But, troubling enough was this quote about whether or not MTSU would continue to pursue other law school opportunities:
"We're not going to stop," he said. "If the board and current faculty leadership believe that a law school is going to be helpful for our school, then we're going to pursue one. We'll just think of a better idea. Law schools are out there by the dozen."
I received this email this morning [my emphasis]:
Dear Valparaiso University Alumni,
I am writing to share an important update about the Valparaiso University Law School. Yesterday Valparaiso University announced its decision to continue to teach-out the current Law School students in a timely manner and cease operations.
The University will work closely with its relevant accreditors, the Higher Learning Commission and the American Bar Association (ABA), to continue with its plan to teach-out the remaining law students.
The University continues to enroll high-quality students, achieve high national rankings, and maintain graduate placement exceeding 90 percent for 25 consecutive years. Valpo continues to grow and thrive, adding undergraduate and postgraduate programs in high demand fields, building cutting-edge classroom spaces, and expanding housing to include Beacon Hall and the Sorority Complex.
The future of Valparaiso University remains strong as is its commitment to developing women and men, like yourself, who are highly sought for their knowledge, character, integrity, and wisdom. We will continue to elevate the student experience as the world needs more Valpo graduates who do great things in a world that needs them.
I want to personally express my deepest appreciation for your continued support, and engagement of Valparaiso University.
Sincerely,
Frederick G. Kraegel '70
Chairman, Board of Directors
https://www.murfreesboropost.com/opinion/editorials/a-hatchet-job-indeed/article_6579596e-dc65-11e8-9343-fbe60b635a7d.html
Interesting piece from TN about how an editorial board feels about it. This coincides with what I've heard. That this last minute consultants report was :censored: and specifically designed to spook certain votes and that it was a political ploy.
It's just devastating for lots of reasons as I believe this was the University's good faith effort to work to preserve the Valparaiso University Law Schools name in some way and they made lots of decisions to do that which caused near term financial struggles for the university to do so.
So currently there is no suitor for Valpo's law school?
I don't think there can be. The process with MTSU lasted many years and took lots of time and effort from different levels of administration plus a consulting firm. They do not have the time or money to do that process over again. My guess is the best we can hope for is maybe we can get someone to purchase our law library or some other things. But by Spring of 2020 we will no longer have a single student and therefore will not have a law school to gift or sell.
I cannot imagine being a law student at Valpo right now, knowing that after they graduate the school will cease operations. Very sad.
This news hit the Fort Wayne paper today. Valparaiso law school shuttered; costs cited (http://www.journalgazette.net/news/local/indiana/20181101/valparaiso-law-school-shuttered-costs-cited)
Probably not great news for local student recruitment.
Quote from: usc4valpo on November 01, 2018, 07:24:22 AM
I cannot imagine being a law student at Valpo right now, knowing that after they graduate the school will cease operations. Very sad.
Having a law school was never a factor in my decision to attend VU. How many on this board that are alumni actually even knew there was a law school when you were a high school senior making college decisions?
I only found out midway into my freshman year because our track assistant coach was a 2nd year law student.
I agree. The law school's reputation is so regional that there is a complete disconnect from how it's viewed by it's older alumni and people in the area and people who are looking at Valpo for undergrad. I attended almost 20 years ago and it was a non-factor even then. I don't think this will make a single bit of difference when it comes to undergraduate or graduate school enrollment. In fact I often remember that, when telling older people that I was attending Valpo if they didn't mention the Drews all they could say was "oh don't they have a good law school" but that's not something my generation or those below mine knew or thought about Valpo.
How anyone can think the headline "Valparaiso law school shuttered" does not negatively impact our reputation, ability to recruit new students, and our brand is beyond me. The entire administration and board of directors is culpable for this debacle.
Paul
Quote from: 78crusader on November 01, 2018, 09:58:53 AM
How anyone can think the headline "Valparaiso law school shuttered" does not negatively impact our reputation, ability to recruit new students, and our brand is beyond me. The entire administration and board of directors is culpable for this debacle.
Paul
So a potential undergraduate that has no plans to become a lawyer or politician is going to be allergic to attending a school that decided to close their law school. Maybe it's part of the consideration, but I can tell you that only adults give a _____ about media and what's written by them.
Here's where it becomes a negative of substance....if it negatively deminishes our annual ranking by corrupt ranking systems run by fallible humans.
I respect your concern, but this means very little to our long term viability IMO. High school seniors don't read newspapers guys!!!! They barely read, they let those sexy bots Alexa and Siri do it for them haha
Also literally the only people running articles on this are local news sources and some law school sites. Valpo's law school was so off the radar that it closing doesn't mean much as universities close different programs all the time. If it didn't happen because of a large scandal at the height of it's prime then it doesn't break through
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on November 01, 2018, 10:29:50 AM
Quote from: 78crusader on November 01, 2018, 09:58:53 AM
How anyone can think the headline "Valparaiso law school shuttered" does not negatively impact our reputation, ability to recruit new students, and our brand is beyond me. The entire administration and board of directors is culpable for this debacle.
Paul
So a potential undergraduate that has no plans to become a lawyer or politician is going to be allergic to attending a school that decided to close their law school. Maybe it's part of the consideration, but I can tell you that only adults give a _____ about media and what's written by them.
Here's where it becomes a negative of substance....if it negatively deminishes our annual ranking by corrupt ranking systems run by fallible humans.
I respect your concern, but this means very little to our long term viability IMO. High school seniors don't read newspapers guys!!!! They barely read, they let those sexy bots Alexa and Siri do it for them haha
Quote from: 78crusader on November 01, 2018, 09:58:53 AM
How anyone can think the headline "Valparaiso law school shuttered" does not negatively impact our reputation, ability to recruit new students, and our brand is beyond me. The entire administration and board of directors is culpable for this debacle.
Paul
Quote from: crusader05 on November 01, 2018, 10:38:14 AMAlso literally the only people running articles on this are local news sources and some law school sites. Valpo's law school was so off the radar that it closing doesn't mean much as universities close different programs all the time. If it didn't happen because of a large scandal at the height of it's prime then it doesn't break through
I know that 78Crusader and I are from a similar era, and I understand that you seem mainly to be concerned about the optics for enrollment, thinking that high school kids don't look at this kind of thing, I am not only concerned about high school students, but also alumni and donors. I think it will be a while before this news is moved off of the first page of a Valparaiso University Google search. The University should be concerned about this.
I do think the University is and should be concerned about it and I do think it does have repercussions and obviously is upsetting and unacceptable to alumna and other donors. I was though responding that I do not think it will effect undergrad enrollment or the overall outlook of the campus in the way other posters were referring. I actually tend to think (and I know this might sound heartless) that the university probably saw the writing on the wall a long time ago and maybe should have ripped the bandaid off way earlier rather than this slow death we have seen but that they were worried specifically about alumna and donors. I think the slow loss of stature of the law school plus it's complete detachment from the university were both factors that were easy to see from within but hard to see from without. It wasn't financially feasible to shrink enrollment and so the strategy was to increase it and hope we could prove ourselves even if the quality of students coming in decreased. That gamble did not pay off and so we briefly lost and quickly regained our accreditation and then it was time to cut our losses and get out.
I just wonder if the blowback over the closing or gifting of the law school ten years ago would have been less or if it needed to get to this point?
Law education demand has dropped significantly across the country. I do not think it is as bad a blemish as people think. Now if the college of engineering, sciences, business or nursingwhere there is huge national demand, gets worse, then we have a problem.