Well, we couldn't stop a D-II read option team. Now we face another read option team in Davidson. They got hammered by Dayton 42-21, but they had a 14pt. lead at the beginning of the game.
Some Davidson stats that should worry the Valpo faithful.
Game Stats DAV UD
First Downs 19 19
Total Offensive Yds 371 392
Passing Yards 177 193
Rushing Yards 194 199
Penalty Yards 6-60 7-45
3rd Downs 8-17 3-8
4th Downs 2-3 1-2
Time Of Possession 33:54 26:06
I think the team will bounce back.
Valpo 37
Davidson 24
Davidson is not really a read option team. Their new offense is a modified pistol triple option offense. It is very schoolyard and should turn the ball over fairly often as the offense gets installed. Some of the risks they take with the ball you don't typically see installed into an offense but it works sometimes and for big gains. I thought this game would be a walkover prior to yesterday. They moved the ball early on Dayton but then did nothing for the better part of 3 quarters and Dayton made some adjustments. We'll see.
I thought the net run/pass balance that Davidson showed on the stat sheet was a bit surprising. That gives us even more to prepare for. :(
They completed 10 of 18 attempts but threw two picks.
They had a total of 74 plays to Dayton's 53.
They controlled 12:29 of the 1st qtr -- that's how they moved out to a 14-0 initial lead. First drive took 5:14 (11 plays) and the second 7:15 (15 plays). Both of Dayton's Q-1 drives were 3 and outs. Davidson had one other good drive all game in Q2 - a 14 play, 51 yd. drive (6:07 duration) that ended in a missed FG. In the second half they had possessions of 3, 5, 3, 3, 5 (the last being their final TD with 3:15 left and after Dayton had scored 42 straight points.
I am pasting my final comment from the TSU post-mortem here:
10 - The dimly lit bright side -- I think this was supposed to be a tuneup for conference play and, positioned in their minds as such, the players and coaches did not bring their A game, BUT..... this was not a PFL game. We learned a lot about ourselves yesterday (as well as the past two Saturdays). We need to channel every positive thing we learned going forward and not make those mistakes in conference play.
We know we are capable of playing good ball as we demonstrated against Duquesne (who also beat Dayton similarly). But we are still not used to winning so we haven't developed a true winners mindset. It's uphill for the next 8 game. We should never consider ourselves a "favorite." We are underdogs every weekend.
Davidson's first drive of the game is something I think we will see on Saturday [click to enlarge]. Remember the name Wesley Dugger.
Where's valpofb16? Hope he's ok after Saturday's mess. Provides great info.
JD24 always appreciated. I watched Saturday on the ESPN+ app. We were bigger, faster, and stronger it appeared in many aspects. The defense was really slow playing their option. I don't think they got wore down, I think Truman State controlled the clock came into Valpo and beat the Crusaders soundly. A few players considered the game embarrassing.
That being said. The team they played had football scholarships and Valparaiso University does not. Davidson is 3-1 heading into Valparaiso with a team of primarily underclassmen. They should be better than people expect. Bilinski is still a year or two away from being a PFL capable starter, need a play maker. Missing Boxrucker has hurt to maintain drives.
This is a must win, if this game turns out to be a loss I am not sure where I see even being .500 a possibility.
Copied and pasted from the PFL Fan Forum site:
After week 4 here are the Massey ratings of PFLteams (order only) going into our game with Davidson:
San Diego
Butler
Drake
Dayton
Jacksonville
Valparaiso
Stetson
Morehead State
Davidson
Marist
The Davidson people are ecstatic that they are no longer listed last in FCS, PLUS there is a PFL team below them for the first time in years.
ALSO from the PFL Fan Forum: 5 out of 6 posters pick Valpo. The lone decenter is a Davidson alum. One week ago I would have said a solid win by Valpo by a couple of TDs. Now? Could be a shootout and a toss-up because we certainly showed we cannot stop the run right now -- the tape of the game was an early Christmas present to Davidson coach Scott Abell,. And they run the ball. just remember the name Wesley Dugger.
Dugger ran for 1100yds last season out of a more conventional offense. He'll run it more out of the current offense along with the QB. 81 yards vs Dayton but on 28 carries. Gap integrity is very important and Davidson's triple option is a little odd as well in that it looks like organized school yard ball.
Quote from: JD24 on September 26, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Dugger ran for 1100yds last season out of a more conventional offense. He'll run it more out of the current offense along with the QB. 81 yards vs Dayton but on 28 carries. Gap integrity is very important and Davidson's triple option is a little odd as well in that it looks like organized school yard ball.
24, might that offensive scheme mean it will be even harder to establish and follow rock hard keys/reads? If so it plays to an already semi-undisciplined D. That is, does it force us into a school yard defense? That is scary.
Saders 34
John Davidson 14
Quote from: VULB#62 on September 26, 2018, 08:07:01 PMQuote from: JD24 on September 26, 2018, 03:13:22 PMDugger ran for 1100yds last season out of a more conventional offense. He'll run it more out of the current offense along with the QB. 81 yards vs Dayton but on 28 carries. Gap integrity is very important and Davidson's triple option is a little odd as well in that it looks like organized school yard ball.
24, might that offensive scheme mean it will be even harder to establish and follow rock hard keys/reads? If so it plays to an already semi-undisciplined D. That is, does it force us into a school yard defense? That is scary.
The offense itself is so new that I expect turnovers to be an issue for them.
Lets hope so.
27-23 Valpo. Valpo will have more than a TD lead and Davidson will make the score look closer near the end of the game.
At the game.
A 1-10 season awaits.
Paul
The last possession was a mess. We bailed ourselves out on the first 4th down, but then had 2 balls just thrown up for grabs, before we had to do a third? They couldn't stop anything thrown on a slant or cross, so why in the world did we just toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down?
I have to question the third down call on Valpo's last drive in the first half. It was 3rd and 10 near midfield and I think they did a draw like rush for an insignificant gain. In such an offensive first half, I was puzzled by the call. From there, Davidson was able to score before the half.
Something is really funky with this team and I feel they are losing their mojo. The QBs are not 100 percent and the defensive line is getting pounded.
Who is the win going to come from?
Not sure Mila, but probability will prove they will win a game or 2. Talent wise and coaching wise this is not a Carlson team, and you would have to assume they will get better.
Quote from: valpotx on September 29, 2018, 04:09:13 PMThe last possession was a mess. We bailed ourselves out on the first 4th down, but then had 2 balls just thrown up for grabs, before we had to do a third? They couldn't stop anything thrown on a slant or cross, so why in the world did we just toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down?
Because we didn't "toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down"
The pass to Fox was just a lollipop out of Seewald's hands. Fox was open and last year that's a pass that Seewald gets to Fox likely for a completion. They had to throw down the field with the time remaining. In addition, the 3rd down pass to Norberg should have been caught. Is it tough? Yeah...but that's the difference between Frank Catrine and Norberg (or anyone else on the roster). Catrine comes down with that and the Crusader's have a couple of shots at the end zone from the 10-12 yard line.
Kudos to VULB#62 for calling this mess on defense. Todd and Dave can call the "2nd half effort" what they want on defense but 380 yards on the ground and 550 yards in total offense given up by a defense isn't going to win many games whether you give it all up in the first half or spread evenly through the game. It's terrible. I don't get it either. The front 7 for Valpo should be pretty stout but it is getting chewed up. One of the CBs also struggled I thought today. Supposedly all this experience was going to lead to more victories. Right now Valpo will probably win a couple of games but the thoughts of competing for a league title? Laughable at this point.
At the end of the half and at the end of the game the defense let these guys go right down the field. Also not a good sign when a DB is setting records for tackles in a game.
I couldn't see the game and only got occasional updates by game tracker. You dont win when you give the opponent 23 more plays and almost 150 total yards for free. And if you can't shut down a last gasp two minute offense in your own house, you deserve to lose.
We lost because we cannot (or refuse to or don't have a system to) run the ball to control the clock
We lost because we couldn't stop a run offense or pressure it into turnovers
We lost because we are one dimentional on O and we do not effectively attack on D
We lost because we do not play fundamental, in your face football.
We lost because we were not as tough as Davidson on every play and the game of football is decided one play at a time
So Davidson is 4-1 and we are 0-4.
We need to start stringing some wins together. There are no more moral victories for this program. It's time to start getting some wins.
Let's start with focusing on one win and see where it goes from here. Dayton will be a tough one to win. The QBs need to get healthy and fast.
Went to game.
Second week in a row we were beaten soundly. We had more talent they had a better scheme.
Missing Turner was a problem. Replacing Nunes this year with Lane + Booker has been a problem. Their pulling action gave us fits. Missing Leandre is a problem.
I believe we have been outcoached and unprepared now for two weeks. The Duncan , Seewald thing is boggling. Let seewald play and get a rythm or redshirt him this season and play Duncan.
The penalties and lack of discipline on offense and defense is extremely concerning. Does not look like a Cecchini coached team.
It does appear there is some odd ju-ju going down up there. Wonder if egos or something else it taking place
This team is currently in a state of disarray. They have been out coached the past two weeks, and the defensive line needs to step it up.
Quote from: JD24 on September 29, 2018, 09:12:00 PM
Quote from: valpotx on September 29, 2018, 04:09:13 PMThe last possession was a mess. We bailed ourselves out on the first 4th down, but then had 2 balls just thrown up for grabs, before we had to do a third? They couldn't stop anything thrown on a slant or cross, so why in the world did we just toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down?
Because we didn't "toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down"
The pass to Fox was just a lollipop out of Seewald's hands. Fox was open and last year that's a pass that Seewald gets to Fox likely for a completion. They had to throw down the field with the time remaining. In addition, the 3rd down pass to Norberg should have been caught. Is it tough? Yeah...but that's the difference between Frank Catrine and Norberg (or anyone else on the roster). Catrine comes down with that and the Crusader's have a couple of shots at the end zone from the 10-12 yard line.
Right, but in essence, they were 'tossed up,' based on how the passes were thrown. It gave the defense forever to get in position to knock them down. If we couldn't make those throws on at least a somewhat line drive, why not try the shorter slants and let the WRs run, since that was working all game?
Quote from: valpotx on September 30, 2018, 01:53:17 PMQuote from: JD24 on September 29, 2018, 09:12:00 PMQuote from: valpotx on September 29, 2018, 04:09:13 PMThe last possession was a mess. We bailed ourselves out on the first 4th down, but then had 2 balls just thrown up for grabs, before we had to do a third? They couldn't stop anything thrown on a slant or cross, so why in the world did we just toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down?
Because we didn't "toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down" The pass to Fox was just a lollipop out of Seewald's hands. Fox was open and last year that's a pass that Seewald gets to Fox likely for a completion. They had to throw down the field with the time remaining. In addition, the 3rd down pass to Norberg should have been caught. Is it tough? Yeah...but that's the difference between Frank Catrine and Norberg (or anyone else on the roster). Catrine comes down with that and the Crusader's have a couple of shots at the end zone from the 10-12 yard line.
Right, but in essence, they were 'tossed up,' based on how the passes were thrown. It gave the defense forever to get in position to knock them down. If we couldn't make those throws on at least a somewhat line drive, why not try the shorter slants and let the WRs run, since that was working all game?
With the time left in the game, they had to throw the ball down the field and near the sideline otherwise the clock would have run out. Crossing patterns and slants wouldn't have worked. As it was, Norberg comes down with a pass I think he should have, and it's a couple of shots in the endzone.
Heard as of Friday coach wasn't sure which of his QB's would even be healthy enough to start that game.
Quote from: VULB#62 on September 29, 2018, 10:53:48 PMWe lost because we cannot (or refuse to or don't have a system to) run the ball to control the clock
All of the other points made by VULB#62 are certainly pertinent however this is the one I've been thinking about the last two weeks in particular. Does Kyle Cartales have it written into his contract that he can only carry the ball maybe 15-16 times a game? As John McKay famously said about Ricky Bell carrying it 35 times a game "the ball's not that heavy". I also wonder if there's no other back on the roster other than Elias Earley who they spot here and there that they trust carrying the ball. RBs usually can contribute immediately if they are any good which makes me wonder about the guys they've brought in the last two recruiting classes. Cartales also may be the best player on the offense and needs to see the rock more than he has. Valpo can run the ball and run it well if they want to run it a lot. They just don't want to.
We get our one big play out of Norberg per game while not bringing up the ball at the end he should have caught and the lack of either effort or skill on the interception near the endzone that he should have probably caught.....again 2 plays Catrine made countless times in three seasons. Other than that Davidson....a triple option team designed to grind it out....had about 10 plays all bigger than any other offensive play by Valpo. That's a comment on both the defense and offense.
From what I've seen, if he's healthy, I'm playing Duncan. Seewald makes some throws but then seemingly loses it out of nowhere. I'm also not sure that Duncan wasn't pulled from the game on the last drive when he took a sack he probably shouldn't have rather than being injured as Todd thought. If I'm right that was a mistake by the staff. He probably completes the pass to Fox along the sidelines that Seewald lollipopped.
Adding to what 24 said, a pure passing offense (pretty much ours) requires pass blocking which is, for lack of a better term, passive — back up, protect, form a wall, absorb. Teams like TSU and Davidson, who commit to run first, point their bulls forward aggressively and force the game. If they need to pass they pass off the run motion which can be terrifying to a defense that is stacking the box at the line of scrimmage to stop the run that just grinds up yardage. Sexy? No. Efficient? Yes.
So when a passing team needs to run, it requires its line to change mentality. 180 degrees. That's tough to ask of youngsters on a switch on or switch off basis.
IMO (and 24 will call me out on this if I am wrong) you need less pure team talent to run the ball than pass it. But you need intense dedication every play which can counter just pure talent. That is why the service academies, for instance, are so successful despite being oftentimes on the short end of the athletic talent spectrum.
Quote from: JD24 on September 30, 2018, 08:06:24 PM
Quote from: valpotx on September 30, 2018, 01:53:17 PMQuote from: JD24 on September 29, 2018, 09:12:00 PMQuote from: valpotx on September 29, 2018, 04:09:13 PMThe last possession was a mess. We bailed ourselves out on the first 4th down, but then had 2 balls just thrown up for grabs, before we had to do a third? They couldn't stop anything thrown on a slant or cross, so why in the world did we just toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down?
Because we didn't "toss it up on 2nd and 3rd down" The pass to Fox was just a lollipop out of Seewald's hands. Fox was open and last year that's a pass that Seewald gets to Fox likely for a completion. They had to throw down the field with the time remaining. In addition, the 3rd down pass to Norberg should have been caught. Is it tough? Yeah...but that's the difference between Frank Catrine and Norberg (or anyone else on the roster). Catrine comes down with that and the Crusader's have a couple of shots at the end zone from the 10-12 yard line.
Right, but in essence, they were 'tossed up,' based on how the passes were thrown. It gave the defense forever to get in position to knock them down. If we couldn't make those throws on at least a somewhat line drive, why not try the shorter slants and let the WRs run, since that was working all game?
With the time left in the game, they had to throw the ball down the field and near the sideline otherwise the clock would have run out. Crossing patterns and slants wouldn't have worked. As it was, Norberg comes down with a pass I think he should have, and it's a couple of shots in the endzone.
No, we didn't. In college, the clock stops when you get first downs over the last 2 minutes. They could have thrown over the middle a few times, and just spike it on each first down.
Quote from: valpotx on October 01, 2018, 01:39:03 AMNo, we didn't. In college, the clock stops when you get first downs over the last 2 minutes. They could have thrown over the middle a few times, and just spike it on each first down.
Thanks for the bulletin ::) . With each play taking minimum of 8 secs and 23 secs to play with and spiking the ball taking a second or two as well, sideline throws are your friend.
51 secs QB sack 45 secs TO Valpo their last timeout
based on the routes, wanted to throw a 12-15 yard slant to either Rene or Norberg
Screen to Carales 7 yards 3rd and 7 38 secs left clock stopped.
Sideline pass to Rene incomplete 30 secs left clock stopped.
based on the routes, looking for a 12-15 yards middle of field to I presume Sutter since Rene and Norberg were shallow on the sidelines. Cartales wide open at the sticks in the middle of the field but Jimmy missed him.
Deep slant to Norberg to Davidson 38. 23 secs. Clock stopped to move chains.
Spike down to 22 secs. 2nd and 10 Davidson 38.
Sideline pass to Fox at Davidson 22 incomplete. 15 secs left. clock stopped. 3rd and 10 Davidson 38
Fox was wide open and it is completed pass if Seewald was healthy or Duncan was in the game. It wasn't a "jump ball" as Todd described it. It was a poorly thrown ball. Valpo should have the ball st and 10 at Davidson 22.
Deep sideline pass to Norberg at Davidson 12 incomplete. Clock stopped 9 secs 4th and 10 Davidson 38.
This was a "jump ball" so to speak. Actually a pretty good back shoulder throw which Norberg just missed. Should have been 1st and goal at Davidson 12 or 11 with maybe two shots into the endzone.
Deep pass by Duncan to 6 yard line which was batted down. 1 sec left. Turnover on downs.
So out of the plays which were run, plays 1 and 3 were intended to be middle of the field throws which failed (and one miserably on the sack). One worked on the pass to Norberg. One screen which worked to some degree and a spike. The next two plays had a player wide open in Fox in which the ball didn't get to him and another ball which should have been completed. I don't think there's all that much compelling evidence that throws to the middle of the field would have been more successful than a couple of balls to the sidelines which were demonstrably open and just not made. A completed pass in the middle probably takes even more time by the time the tackle is made.
The real offense issue is that Seewald is much further behind than I believe was anticipated. This really showed toward the end of the game when we needed to get the ball down the field. His longer passes, as JD24 indicated, where just lollipops waiting to be picked off. Using 3 different quarterbacks in 4 games has been challenging to say the least, especially when you expected to have perhaps the best quarterback in the league returning. Someone else mentioned that Seewald may want to redshirt and honestly that might be the best idea if Jimmy can't make all of the throws. I really thought we were better with Duncan in the game, but now if he is hurt again Trey Bilinski may have to be the next man up. Bilinski's size may make him the most durable option.
I know we have had some injuries on the defensive side but other than that I have no idea what is wrong with them.
I did not see the last game. Please take this into consideration when you see my recommendation. But my previous observations and being at the Truman State game lead me to say:
Shut Jimmy down. Now. Put him on a rehab regimen and let him regain his arm strength, learn and mature. Jimmy can be very good, but he is not as good as he was last year right now. Start and go with Chris for the rest of the season. But essential to this step is to modify the entire offense to optimize Chris' skills, mobility and speed. And..... (and this is very important) ... build a strong run component that will enable Chris to squeeze out every yard he can. Chris is at least two dimentional. Jimmy, right now, is a pure passer and does not run with anywhere near the skill needed to be a threat. That is ok. But right now it is not what we need. And be aware that takes a pretty large shift away from what we have seen in the first four games. No more pocket passing with a prefunctory fake hand-off to start it off as the base. Attack the perimeter with runs and passing on the move. That is not what we've seen so far.
I go back to Dave's first season. He came on board and we had a very good passer in Eric Hoffman who still holds Valpo passing records. But Eric decided to forego his last year of elegibility and graduate. We were left with Ben Lehman. And the offense, with Ben running and throwing and throwing on the run, won us four games in year one. That offense was actually fun to watch and was not predicable. Talk at the time was that Dave actually wanted to recruit that type of QB. We tried with Dalton Stokes. He had it, but got hurt and never realized the potential we thought he had. But eventually we have grown toward the pure passer. That is fine if we can compliment that type of QB. I thought we had that last year, but through transfers we lost that in just one year.
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Congratulations to junior DB Jamari Booker in setting a bit of a dubious mark. When a DB makes 20 tackles in a game, it relects very poorly on the front seven's ability to stop anybody. But you can't take anything away from that young man.