If no explanation is offered on this board, perhaps the student senate could take up an investigation of where our large mascot currently is living and whether or not the faculty colluded with others to have him removed. :(
Maybe Trump had something to do with it?
I understand and respect that VU is a private institution. And therefore does not have to publish salaries and such. With that said, it goes both ways. Due to being a private institution, we don't receive public funding. So, you'd think that would mean we'd stand by our heritage. But, alas, it does seem as though we are losing that heritage. If so, why not go public? If the Lutheran affiliation no longer fits the identity of the institution, then what's the point of being private? Go public. It's not as though the religion courses, for instance, are taught in the purest of ways. At least not those I took when I attended many years ago. I received very mixed messages from theology profs even back then.
So, if we are going to complain about this and that with funding, then go public. Is that possible? Has it been done before? What's the process? Way above my pay grade. With that said, being a Lutheran institution is a different conversation than what it means to be a crusader. In the broad sense, yes a Crusader can be used in a relative manner. Historically-speaking, there are specific facts at stake. Either way, choices need to be made.
And, why not be open and transparent? Salaries, facility plans, even injury reports ... all a secret. Who are we trying to kid? Are we honestly *that* place which tries to act like it's a big game of poker? Don't wanna show our cards! Poker face about everything. Meanwhile leaving fans, grads, community members, and students in the dark.
There had to be a second spitter!
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on December 07, 2018, 12:54:09 PM
There had to be a second spitter!
Haha, ohh Seinfeld! Wish it was on Netflix, great show.
I suppose none of you have just thought that it's a dinosaur in the student section. Actually, it has been decided that we will be the Valparaiso Veloceraptors ;)
So is this legit? Are they really trying to slowly/quitely trying phase out the Crusader? Or is this just a rumor?
I knew a very small group of faculty and students were pushing for it but generally you don't change historical mascot to appease a small group of people who aren't even personally offended by the mascot but they are overly worried that a unknown group of may be offended.
FWIW I talked to a former Saudi classmate during homecoming about this very topic and he laughed at the idea. He didn't understand why people wanted to change it.
OK, so instead of speculating about the demise of the Crusader and guessing as to why the big Crusader was being removed, I simply asked Mark LaBarbera about the cause and, guess what? He answered me!
Here is what he said:
The paint was coming off in significant amounts, was starting to look bad. We decided to use the money for other items for the ARC (which are still in the works) instead of replacing it.
Everybody relax (I added that--not Mark) ;D
I approve of the use of funds going elsewhere :thumbsup:
Thanks for being the one to reach out VU72
Quote from: VUBBFan on December 07, 2018, 04:07:26 PMI would like to apologize for creating such a ruckus. I had asked a general question to the group of people I sit with at the games, "What happened to the big Crusader?" One person identifying themselves as a Valpo professor took credit for getting rid of the offensive symbol. Saying that they had finally got some backing from some alumni in their efforts to get rid of the Crusader mascot. That person then gave me a small lecture on the evils of the Crusaders and how offensive it is to Middle Eastern people and not seeing the Mascot for several games made me speculate on his demise.
I thought I had a credible source but evidently not. Perhaps in this professor mind they thought they had made this happen.
As a side note I believe the new uniforms for the cheer and dance teams look great.
Quote from: VUBBFan on December 07, 2018, 04:07:26 PM
I would like to apologize for creating such a ruckus. I had asked a general question to the group of people I sit with at the games, "What happened to the big Crusader?" One person identifying themselves as a Valpo professor took credit for getting rid of the offensive symbol. Saying that they had finally got some backing from some alumni in their efforts to get rid of the Crusader mascot. That person then gave me a small lecture on the evils of the Crusaders and how offensive it is to Middle Eastern people and not seeing the Mascot for several games made me speculate on his demise. Perhaps in this professor mind they thought they had made this happen.
As a side note I believe the new uniforms for the cheer and dance teams look great.
So, a person claiming to be a professor tells you in very specific terms right off the top of their head that the Crusader is gone for good, explains why it is gone and who is responsible for its demise, and subsequently editorializes about the evils of the Crusaders in history. You think the person sounds credible enough to post about it, but now we're supposed to conclude that this individual must be a pathological liar because ML told '72 they got rid of Crusader for financial reasons.
IMO this doesn't pass the smell test. I think it's far more likely that the individual who told you what happened was being truthful, and that MH told ML that he wants the giant Crusader gone, but wants it done with the least amount of fanfare possible. So, knowing the thing is in need of painting they simply decide to say that a decision was made to spend the painting cost elsewhere. Of course, it's not the underlying reason, but it's not a lie either. Mission accomplished.
Quote from: wh on December 07, 2018, 06:16:17 PM
Quote from: VUBBFan on December 07, 2018, 04:07:26 PM
I would like to apologize for creating such a ruckus. I had asked a general question to the group of people I sit with at the games, "What happened to the big Crusader?" One person identifying themselves as a Valpo professor took credit for getting rid of the offensive symbol. Saying that they had finally got some backing from some alumni in their efforts to get rid of the Crusader mascot. That person then gave me a small lecture on the evils of the Crusaders and how offensive it is to Middle Eastern people and not seeing the Mascot for several games made me speculate on his demise. Perhaps in this professor mind they thought they had made this happen.
As a side note I believe the new uniforms for the cheer and dance teams look great.
So, a person claiming to be a professor tells you in very specific terms right off the top of their head that the Crusader is gone for good, explains why it is gone and who is responsible for its demise, and subsequently editorializes about the evils of the Crusaders in history. You think the person sounds credible enough to post about it, but now we're supposed to conclude that this individual must be a pathological liar because ML told '72 they got rid of Crusader for financial reasons.
IMO this doesn't pass the smell test. I think it's far more likely that the individual who told you what happened was being truthful, and that MH told ML that he wants the giant Crusader gone, but wants it done with the least amount of fanfare possible. So, knowing the thing is in need of painting they simply decide to say that a decision was made to spend the painting cost elsewhere. Of course, it's not the underlying reason, but it's not a lie either. Mission accomplished.
I agree. If the administration really wanted to keep the big Crusader, does anyone really think the cost of repair or replacement would have stopped them? I bet they could easily have gotten dedicated donations from fans to pay for it.
I believe that WH will serve well as our new Special Counsel to investigate potential collusion among the faculty, Pres, and AD. He's got me curious.
Perhaps a foreign agent written dossier was contrived to get a FISA court permission to spy on Faculty Member 1. Once obtained, that information may have been used to lure the AD into contact with him. What remains to be found is whether the President colluded with the faculty member to have the giant Crusader removed from the ARC.
We need a new president. And I don't mean Trump. The guy we have presided over the decline of the law school, caused in large part by admitting too many students who had little chance of passing the bar, which led to censure by the ABA and then the closing of the school. Probably others can also be assigned blame but he is the guy in charge and should be held accountable. Now he is trying to change the culture of the place and placate the PC zealots - who will never be satisfied and won't stop with the mascot. He's trying to please everyone and we all know that never works. We should embrace our Christian heritage but he seems intent on watering it down and minimizing it to the point where it is no longer recognizable. This guy is too liberal and if we're not careful VU will quickly become a Christian-in-name-only place, if it isn't already.
Paul
I promise that if Valpo caves into the ridiculously oversensitive culture we have at the moment by changing our mascot, I will stop donating, and resign as leader of the DFW club. A Crusader is not a racist symbol.
https://www.history.com/news/why-muslims-see-the-crusades-so-differently-from-christians
This is a lot of hand wringing for something we have nothing but a few whispers behind. Relax guys.
Holy overreaction Batman! A new President? President Heckler has done a great job and is a fine Christian(Lutheran) man. Higher education in today's world is WAY different than when many of us were in college. Education is a moving target and if you are not willing to adapt, you will be the next St. Joes. Sure, the law school is done, but so is the medical school (1923) and dental schools. Things change. What is being lost in all this is all the NEW programs being added. Things like Logistics Management, Aviation and Environmental Engineering. The student of today is way more flexible and demands innovation. If Valpo won't offer the new programs they are looking for they will find them elsewhere.
Now, if you think he is trying to move Valpo to a less Christian place, just watch one of his Christmas messages.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jik7YYJcEoM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K69I-SmKZzs
Actions speak louder than words.
Paul
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on December 08, 2018, 07:26:41 AM
This is a lot of hand wringing for something we have nothing but a few whispers behind. Relax guys.
My pride isn't in a mascot, it's in a university. Have no mascot as far as I'm concerned.
BUT if we are talking about putting whiny liberal minded minority thinkers in place, serve be a helping of that STFU pie!!! 😉
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 08, 2018, 09:30:59 AM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on December 08, 2018, 07:26:41 AM
This is a lot of hand wringing for something we have nothing but a few whispers behind. Relax guys.
My pride isn't in a mascot, it's in a university. Have no mascot as far as I'm concerned.
BUT if we are talking about putting whiny liberal minded minority thinkers in place, serve be a helping of that STFU pie!!! 😉
Before someone reacts to my post, my displeasure is aimed at the "professor" types that don't live in reality on such topics.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 08, 2018, 09:33:19 AM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 08, 2018, 09:30:59 AM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on December 08, 2018, 07:26:41 AM
This is a lot of hand wringing for something we have nothing but a few whispers behind. Relax guys.
My pride isn't in a mascot, it's in a university. Have no mascot as far as I'm concerned.
BUT if we are talking about putting whiny liberal minded minority thinkers in place, serve be a helping of that STFU pie!!! 😉
Before someone reacts to my post, my displeasure is aimed at the "professor" types that don't live in reality on such topics.
Here I am having a conversation with myself again 🤪. Should have read "serve them up". I should probably retire from this thread haha
If anyone questions whether activist professors are working behind the scenes to eliminate the Crusader name and mascot, you may want to read valpopal's post from 2017:
Quote from: valpopal on March 28, 2017, 09:46:02 AM
More important than the name on the back of the uniforms, those away from campus should be aware there is a movement organized by activist faculty members to change the name of the team and the mascot, as well as the Valparaiso University logo. In this week's Torch, a letter appeared from one of the faculty after a "teach-in" by the "Compassionate Campus Faculty Learning Community" titled "Islamaphobia and the Crusader Mascot." The group has a Facebook page, "VU-FLC Creating a Compassionate Campus Series," where they have posted photos of the "teach-in" and a poll intended to create artwork for a new VU logo.
Quote from: wh on December 08, 2018, 10:02:39 AMVU-FLC Creating a Compassionate Campus Series,"
I looked at the Facebook page and nothing has been posted in almost two years. hardly a movement, or maybe a "movement" of a different nature.
I certainly enjoyed the advent vespers last night. Of course, President Heckler participated.
The chapel was pretty well filled, but those attending were chairback types -- not many students at all. Perhaps they should have offered t-shirts and subs to attract them.
As has been stated, times change. Frosh are no longer required to attend morning chapel. Lutherans are a minority among the student-body. The services best attended are no longer on Sunday morning.
Vespers was not well attended? You gotta be kidding me! It used to be an awesome event.
[quote Frosh are no longer required to attend morning chapel. [/quote]
I was a freshman in the fall of 1969. We were not required to attend any chapel services, so it's been a really long time since chapel service attendance was required.
On the other hand we couldn't use a car and were required to take a Saturday morning class. I had to walk across the tundra from what was then new campus to old campus every afternoon to make choir rehearsal in Northern Indiana winters (uphill both ways, of course). I had a Spanish class at 8 am Saturday mornings. That sucked.
Quote from: nkvu on December 08, 2018, 06:31:12 PM
[quote Frosh are no longer required to attend morning chapel.
I was a freshman in the fall of 1969. We were not required to attend any chapel services. Were were required to take a Saturday morning class. I had Spanish at 8 am. It sucked.
[/quote]
Nor were we required to do that in 2001. But I believe we "might" have been required to take theology. Either way, I took (2) theology courses and likely by requirement.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on December 08, 2018, 06:36:36 PM
Quote from: nkvu on December 08, 2018, 06:31:12 PM
[quote Frosh are no longer required to attend morning chapel.
I was a freshman in the fall of 1969. We were not required to attend any chapel services. Were were required to take a Saturday morning class. I had Spanish at 8 am. It sucked.
Nor were we required to do that in 2001.
But I believe we "might" have been required to take theology. Either way, I took (2) theology courses and likely by requirement.
[/quote]
Was same for me back in the day. To my knowledge, two semesters of theology are still required. Having said that, those classes had nothing necessarily to do with Lutheranism.
graduated in 2005. 6 credits of theology.
For engineering in the 80s you were required to take 6 hours, for other majors I think it was 9.
Quote from: oklahomamick on December 08, 2018, 07:48:16 PM
graduated in 2005. 6 credits of theology.
Similar to me, 2 classes of Theology (which I treated more as a History class), and no requirement to attend chapel at any point (graduated 2004). I don't think that I ever attended anything in the chapel, to be honest, outside of my campus tour.
I took Intro to Christian Theology with Fred Niedner who was great. I took Christian Ethics which was painful - I don't remember the professor but he was very friendly.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 09, 2018, 07:35:58 AM
I took Intro to Christian Theology with Fred Niedner who was great. I took Christian Ethics which was painful - I don't remember the professor but he was very friendly.
Was also an engineering major and hd to take two theology classes. Intro to Christian Theology could have been good, but professor was awful (was not Niedner). Second class required did not have to be anything to do with Christianity and I took History of Religions which studies the foundations and basic thought within all of the other world religions. This may have been the best and most valuable class that I ever took, as it provided tremendous insight for my eventual international work and prevents narrow-minded thinking about other religions.
Great reply 84v2. I did not get the chance to take that course but I really wish I did. Christian ethics was pretty dull.
When I was there I believe we had free reign on what courses they were as long as they were marked a theo course (Now I believe one course has to specifically be about the Christian Tradition). I took ethics and morality with Weber which was amazing, and then On Death and Dying. Both were great courses with challenging reading.
Quote from: humbleopinion on December 08, 2018, 12:19:14 PM
I certainly enjoyed the advent vespers last night. Of course, President Heckler participated.
The chapel was pretty well filled, but those attending were chairback types -- not many students at all. Perhaps they should have offered t-shirts and subs to attract them.
As has been stated, times change. Frosh are no longer required to attend morning chapel. Lutherans are a minority among the student-body. The services best attended are no longer on Sunday morning.
Nor at basketball games. >:(
I guess I figured Vespers would be a big draw with so many of the students now studying music.
But back to the question at hand. I think this is the key question: There is evidently some paint touch up needed on the large Crusader. Is the deflated large Crusader still stored in the ARC somewhere so that funds raised for its painting can be used?
How do you paint vinyl or plastic? Uh....... Maybe the paint deflection is a distraction? ( to prolong the collusion conspiracy ;) ).
I think it would be fun to have a link listing the best and worst professors everyone had at Valpo. I think for many Ferencz Kallay would be up there with one of the best. His lectures were must see.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 10, 2018, 08:41:28 AM
I think it would be fun to have a link listing the best and worst professors everyone had at Valpo. I think for many Ferencz Kallay would be up there with one of the best. His lectures were must see.
It would be a lot of fun to start a thread that lists the best. I would not want to list the worst because, while there are certainly examples of poor teachers, many of them cared about the university and it would be better not to single them out in a negative and public manner.
Quote from: vu84v2 on December 10, 2018, 10:04:04 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 10, 2018, 08:41:28 AM
I think it would be fun to have a link listing the best and worst professors everyone had at Valpo. I think for many Ferencz Kallay would be up there with one of the best. His lectures were must see.
It would be a lot of fun to start a thread that lists the best. I would not want to list the worst because, while there are certainly examples of poor teachers, many of them cared about the university and it would be better not to single them out in a negative and public manner.
I never had a class with him but I heard that Professor Oren was a real piece of work ;)
Jim Combs was a unique guy. ;D Good teacher. Clothes were an era behind as was the case with most.
Quote from: usc4valpo on December 08, 2018, 06:04:10 PMVespers was not well attended? You gotta be kidding me! It used to be an awesome event.
They tinkered with the format a bit this year. For many years (at least 20?) the services were at fairly consistent times... maybe always 7 and 10 PM. The second service was pitched more at students. The first always "sold out", the second didn't. The chapel filled for the first, while attendance for the second was robust, but the building wasn't full, when I went in the late 90's... maybe around 800?
This year the services were 6:30 and 8:30. For maybe the first time the Immanuel (largest local LCMS parish) children's choir sang at both services, not just the earlier. The service was somewhat shorter than in the past.
The first service looked very full this year, I imagine 90%+ or 95%+ of capacity. I don't know whether they turned anyone away. But, "tickets" were (unlike past years) readily available even on the day of the service. (I assume that max capacity of the chapel is less now with chairs than it was with pews; I don't have hard numbers.) I've not heard anything about the second service, except re the Immanuel choir.
I too thought that the typical member of the congregation this year, for the first service, was well on in years - maybe late middle age.
It was a very nice service.
I must admit, I prefer talking about Vespers to parsing conspiracy theories about the mascot!
I listened to the Union Street podcast this week, and I give credit to Paul for pointing out how the Crusader has been almost completely and consciously expunged throughout the Athletics website this semester at the same time the giant Crusader disappeared. The university's plan in recent years has been to phase out the Crusader and replace it with the non-offensive "Shield of Character" whenever and wherever possible. Everywhere there once had been a Crusader logo in the past has been replaced by the "Shield of Character"—including all clothing promoted for the online store and all the uniforms worn by players in pictures. When new stationary or signage was purchased, the Shield was to replace the Crusader.
Paul also noted that language from past promotions has taken out all references to "follow the Crusaders." Mark attempted to explain the lack of reference to the Crusader as marketing by saying people nationally better know the teams as Valpo—but much of the language on the website was targeted mostly to fans, locals, and Valpo students or alums—and he never could give a good reason for the logo change from Crusader to Shield on all the items that also say "Valpo" or "Valparaiso." Clearly, the goal was to replace all graphics that contain the Crusader logo with the Shield. Both Paul and Mark also recognized the opposition to the Crusader by faculty and administrators on campus, and Mark acknowledged that the identity of the university's teams is decided elsewhere from Athletics.
Unfortunately for the university, one of the lasting images of the Crusader, on the floor at center court, will be more costly to replace, though I'm willing to bet the next time the basketball floor is redone, a Shield will be at center court instead. Then the logic of continuing as the Crusaders will be totally removed as well and another name will be proposed, since it is believed already the absence of the Crusader from everywhere will make it easier to persuade everyone to move away from it.
Santa Clara redid their floor and did a picture of their campus tower. If this is gonna happen a picture of our beautiful chapel would be fantastic.
Will the story about the person who wears the Crusader costume being sick have to be changed now?
Quote from: wh on December 14, 2018, 12:45:21 AM
Will the story about the person who wears the Crusader costume being sick have to be changed now?
No, I know that to be true. But you wonder if the Crusader mascot really mattered to Athletics, why they don't have an understudy, someone to step into the costume when there is a sickness—which is bound to happen at times, especially in northwest Indiana—or other reason for an absence.
Quote from: VULB#62 on December 13, 2018, 10:52:01 PMSanta Clara redid their floor and did a picture of their campus tower. If this is gonna happen a picture of our beautiful chapel would be fantastic.
I love this idea but in light of the belief that some on campus may be trying to eliminate a knight with no overtly Christian symbols, and that it's been stated (albeit uncorroborated hearsay) that some believe that the chapel isn't welcoming, I very strongly doubt that there's any appetite for a picture of the chapel to be emblazoned on the court which is one of the University's most marketable assets since it's shown on TV several times a year. That would make Valpo seem very unwelcoming to the anti-mascot crowd. Furthermore I don't think it's the greatest use of our facility upgrade funds right now. Something like that would be a great capstone project after the higher priority stuff is finished but in light of the anger and backlash it might generate I can't see them doing it.
Call us the Hugging Unicorns if it gets the board to build us a new arena.
Bye bye Crusader...maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow...but soon.
Hiding the mascot is just the outward symbol of more mission drift at VU. This thread was started in jest thinking the mascot MIA issues to be a conspiracy theory. But now it appears that the mascot hiding is purposeful and relentless. In striving to be PC and to blend into the hundreds of secularized schools, we move relentlessly leftward.
Will the motto, "In thy light we see light" fade away strategically? Who's light is "thy" light at this point? Are we embarrassed?
Will the most notable and inspiring public words of Dau, Kreinheder and Kretzmann be kept quiet and out of the public eye as carefully as possible?
The ultimate quandary for the faculty and President in secularizing is what to do with this darn huge high profile building with crosses in it smack in the center of campus. Could it be renovated and neutralized somehow to equalize spaces for worshiping other faiths beyond Christianity? In the 1950s Lutherans deliberately built it to keep the university from wandering away from its founding identity. Is that just a speed bump now?
Similar commentary has been offered with more eloquence by other posters on this board over several years. 78 in particular. That is particularly so when the mascot issue rises from the ashes every few years.
Then what we need is a Final 4 run to make certain the name never goes away.
I'm thinking for a new mascot -- the Valpo Beige, a benign, non-offensive color. It's kind of a combination of yellow and brown. Our new school song would be "Beige to Beige" by Indiana Heartland Rocker, John Mellencamp from Seymour (many outstanding Phi Delts and Valpo people from there and nearby Colombus).
When I was on campus and the subject came up, one proposal was that we should be the Valpo Lake Effect. It is tied to the region, unique and unlikely to offend. It would certainly be less offensive than the Fighting Irish for example. ;)
Quote from: valpo95 on December 14, 2018, 03:27:07 PM
When I was on campus and the subject came up, one proposal was that we should be the Valpo Lake Effect. It is tied to the region, unique and unlikely to offend. It would certainly be less offensive than the Fighting Irish for example. ;)
So this would be a crusade to change the Valpo mascot? Oh wait..........not a good idea.
The Lake Effect idea does tie in with our meteorology major.
How about calling ourselves "the Cardinal"? And use a mysterious evergreen tree as a student mascot. Oh wait. That's taken.
Quote from: valpo95 on December 14, 2018, 03:27:07 PM
When I was on campus and the subject came up, one proposal was that we should be the Valpo Lake Effect. It is tied to the region, unique and unlikely to offend. It would certainly be less offensive than the Fighting Irish for example. ;)
That's not nearly bland enough. Anything that has any meaning of any kind will be twisted and rejected by people with empty souls who try to add meaning to their lives by sowing discord over trivial things. They are a bottomless pit of need that can never be satisfied. On one hand, I feel sorry for them because they will never know true happiness. At the same time they have to be challenged and defeated at every turn.
Unfortunately, Banana Slugs is already taken.
In mentioning that VU78 always rallies to the anti-PC cause with me I inexplicably forgot to mention our most passionate and eloquent poster, Mr. WH.
Was it Goldwater who said this?....or was he more likely quoting someone else?
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice."
Actually, if the goal of the mascot is to reflect Lutheran tradition, the Crusader is a pretty poor choice. Luther was born two centuries after the last crusade during the Renaissance Era. The Crusades were a vestige of the Middle Ages acceptance of Papal authority to intervene in secular affairs. It was the decline of that Medieval authority that lead to the Crusades that protected Martin Luther from suffering the fate of Jan Hus.
I'm ambivalent about the Crusader as a mascot for lots of reasons but I did never really understand it's connection to being a Lutheran institution. Now if we were maybe the Valparaiso Reformers...that would make more sense.
How about the Hammers? As in nailing 95 theses to a door.
I don't know about you but where I come from nailing something to a church door is vandalism.
Valpo Vandals? Or how about the Valpo Busybodies though that may be more appropriate for these faculty members who could use a sabbatical so that they can develop a more productive hobby than to decide for others what is and isn't offensive.
Saying that something is offensive to a certain group to which you yourself do not belong is so paternalistic and to me implies that the people you are offended for lack the ability or the agency to decide for themselves and to speak up.That would certainly upset and offend me if I were part of the afflicted group. I wouldn't want someone speaking for me and starting movements on my behalf.
Say "I'm offended because___________"
But saying "It's offensive to__________" is so weak.
What's next? Should LaSalle drop its nickname because of the horrors various explorers inflicted upon native populations?
Should Duquesne and James Madison drop their names because Duke was a feudal title which was a time if essential slavery for the masses?
Should Notre Dame drop its nickname because it implies that the Irish are a belligerent people?
Should San Francisco drop its name because Dons calls to mind thoughts of the mafia and that's offensive to Italians?
Should UNLV drop its name because it could be seen as a nod to the Confederacy?
Should George Washington and Robert Morris drop their names because colonials represent colonization which was racist and oppressive?
Should George Mason and Dallas Baptist drop their name because Patriots could be seen as nationalistic and we all know nationalism only stokes the far right?
Should Bradley Alcorn State Florida State Illinois and Utah be allowed to continue to use their tribal nicknames?
Should Western Illinois change its nickname because the name leathernecks refers to the military and militaries sometimes commit atrocities? VMI would have to change their name too because every military officer was once a cadet.
Should Old Dominion drop its name because monarchs can be associated with oppression and colonization?
Where does it end? When every team has an animal nickname? Won't that upset PETA somehow?
With the exception of the tribal nicknames (Florida State especially) I think most would conclude that everything I have written here is utterly ridiculous. These names have benign and less benign aspects to them depending on what one reads into them. None of these names except perhaps the tribal names can be construed as racist or overtly exclusionary to any religion. The iconography associated with the name is far more important but even then it's what the individual reads into the symbol that matters most and a university simply can't control what every single person thinks and feels about every little thing.
But what matters more when it comes to how a university should be judged with respect to inclusivity is the university's actions toward people once they're here. Not a nickname or an athletic logo and this University bends over backwards for inclusivity.
We have an extremely diverse faculty and student body and make continued efforts to improve that by recruiting students from different backgrounds.
We offer English tutoring and other forms of assistance to international students.
We have a vibrant well-funded international center that puts on cultural events all the time.
Our Confucius Institute is one of the best in the Midwest
Student groups are encouraged to study abroad and/or participate in service learning which allow students to interact with different cultures and backgrounds
The university is home to a massive array of student organizations and activist groups that to my knowledge have a voice in student government In fact I think they have actual positions specifically for candidates from other backgrounds
CORE class drew on writings from a variety of perspectives. The fifth hour activities only served to further broaden everyone's horizons
Even in our required theology classes Christianity was never pushed or expressly advocated for No tradition was They were presented as-is without comment
There is no required attendance at chapel services ever.
I would say that these myriad actions speak far louder than the word "Crusader" in its less benign context or the knight without Christian symbols ever could. I think we have done a fantastic job at promoting an inclusive campus community and culture or if you will being Crusaders for equality for the underrepresented. I very strongly doubt that any student considering Valpo regardless of their background really thinks: "Wow they have strong programs a beautiful study space and student Union and they're modernizing student housing. Everyone seems happy nice welcoming and accepting and I have plenty of space in which to advocate for an participate in the causes I am passionate about plus an array of fun and interesting student clubs and activities.. But that Crusader name though... And that mascot... Maybe I'm wrong about this place. Alas I'll have to go somewhere else..."
Currently, only Valpo and the College of the Holy Cross have athletes known as "Crusaders." I noticed the following item online: "In 2018, College of the Holy Cross decided to phase out using the Knight imagery, retiring the Holy Cross mascot Iggy T. Crusader. Holy Cross opted instead for the secondary (now primary) logo of a purple shield with an interlocking 'HC.'" Does that sound familiar? Substitute the VU Shield for the "purple shield with an interlocking 'HC'" and you see the exact same plan is surreptitiously underway at Valparaiso. Thus far, the College of Holy Cross is not getting rid of the nickname "Crusader," but they will be politically correct Crusaders: "The small Catholic college reaffirmed that students, athletes, and alumni will continue to be known as Crusaders who fight for social justice." They have also removed the image of the Crusader that was like ours and appeared at center court on their basketball floor and replaced it with their "HC Shield."
I am not going to copy it here in my response due to its length, but VUGrad1314's post is incredibly eloquent. I think that the only thing lacking is that there are even more great programs that promote inclusiveness at Valpo that he does not list. But I wholeheartedly agree that it is that culture and those programs that are a major part of what makes Valpo great. Furthermore, the university needs to focus on what is most important and the mascot is pretty darn low on the list of important issues.
Ditto the kudos to VU1314. Free speech is available to both sides and you have spoken incredibly well.
In terms of fact-finding on "potential collusion," we can dismiss the the special counsel for this case I had requested. At least we know now that the student mascot wasn't sick and that the large Crusader may have met a grisly end rather than simply losing some chips from its paint. It does remind me of a "Law and Order" episode I once saw.
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 16, 2018, 10:54:49 PM
Ditto the kudos to VU1314. Free speech is available to both sides and you have spoken incredibly well.
In terms of fact-finding on "potential collusion," we can dismiss the the special counsel for this case I had requested. At least we know now that the student mascot wasn't sick and that the large Crusader may have met a grisly end rather than simply losing some chips from its paint. It does remind me of a "Law and Order" episode I once saw.
I can say with certainty that the student who wears the mascot costume was sick. However, as I have said previously, if the mascot's presence was truly desired, an understudy substitute would have been arranged. I also believe the total phasing out of the Crusader image, including the mascot, is the university's plan.
OP Kretzmann said famously in an inaugural address that Valpo should be a place where "Athens (wisdom) meets Jerusalem" (religion: meaning Judeo-Christian if you look at the context of his other speeches.) He also said VU students should be free to follow the truth wherever that might lead. If that led to discomfort with the faith at times in either direction then that was a healthy tension. The Crusades certainly present that tension.
It's odd that the university can stand high and post a 15-foot inflatable Crusader in the corner of the ARC on game days, but suddenly feel a political need to remove it just one year later. The old country song once said, "If you don't stand for something then you'll fall for anything." If you stand 15-feet tall you have stood for something even if it brings discomfort and dialog.
To be blunt about it...this "P C" business is a bunch of crap!! And the "academics" are the worst of the lot and carry, by far, the largest share of the load.
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 17, 2018, 09:57:21 AM
OP Kretzmann said famously in an inaugural address that Valpo should be a place where "Athens (wisdom) meets Jerusalem" (religion: meaning Judeo-Christian if you look at the context of his other speeches.) He also said VU students should be free to follow the truth wherever that might lead. If that led to discomfort with the faith at times in either direction then that was a healthy tension. The Crusades certainly present that tension.
It's odd that the university can stand high and post a 15-foot inflatable Crusader in the corner of the ARC on game days, but suddenly feel a political need to remove it just one year later. The old country song once said, "If you don't stand for something then you'll fall for anything." If you stand 15-feet tall you have stood for something even if it brings discomfort and dialog.
To be clear, LaBarbera said on Union Street Hoops that the inflatable Crusader was falling apart. I'm not sure it was a political need to remove it.
His (the inflateable Crusader caricature) absence has left a physical as well as an 'atmospheric' hole in the game day look and feel. One more subtraction from what makes a Valpo BB game a great event. Sadly, the gym is even more sterile and has lost some more "character" (no pun intended - well, maybe a little) as a result. Sure, the money needed for replacement can be used differently. But why? Valpo is stretching to rejuvenate attendance and atmosphere helps in that regard -- living so far away, I only can watch streamed games, but I really miss the big guy..
Quote from: Pgmado on December 17, 2018, 11:50:48 AM
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 17, 2018, 09:57:21 AM
OP Kretzmann said famously in an inaugural address that Valpo should be a place where "Athens (wisdom) meets Jerusalem" (religion: meaning Judeo-Christian if you look at the context of his other speeches.) He also said VU students should be free to follow the truth wherever that might lead. If that led to discomfort with the faith at times in either direction then that was a healthy tension. The Crusades certainly present that tension.
It's odd that the university can stand high and post a 15-foot inflatable Crusader in the corner of the ARC on game days, but suddenly feel a political need to remove it just one year later. The old country song once said, "If you don't stand for something then you'll fall for anything." If you stand 15-feet tall you have stood for something even if it brings discomfort and dialog.
To be clear, LaBarbera said on Union Street Hoops that the inflatable Crusader was falling apart. I'm not sure it was a political need to remove it.
Actually, what he said was "it was starting to get in bad shape, and we decided not to put it up." That seems to mean that it could have been up, but the decision was not to. Sounds to some of us as a convenient excuse. Nevertheless, we can disagree about the true motive behind removing the inflatable Crusader (along with all the
coincidental removal of other images or mentions of Crusader from the website and elsewhere), but do we really want to get into the position of removing everything at the ARC that is getting to be in bad shape? ::)
Quote from: valpopal on December 17, 2018, 12:38:52 PM
Quote from: Pgmado on December 17, 2018, 11:50:48 AM
Quote from: crusadermoe on December 17, 2018, 09:57:21 AM
OP Kretzmann said famously in an inaugural address that Valpo should be a place where "Athens (wisdom) meets Jerusalem" (religion: meaning Judeo-Christian if you look at the context of his other speeches.) He also said VU students should be free to follow the truth wherever that might lead. If that led to discomfort with the faith at times in either direction then that was a healthy tension. The Crusades certainly present that tension.
It's odd that the university can stand high and post a 15-foot inflatable Crusader in the corner of the ARC on game days, but suddenly feel a political need to remove it just one year later. The old country song once said, "If you don't stand for something then you'll fall for anything." If you stand 15-feet tall you have stood for something even if it brings discomfort and dialog.
To be clear, LaBarbera said on Union Street Hoops that the inflatable Crusader was falling apart. I'm not sure it was a political need to remove it.
Actually, what he said was "it was starting to get in bad shape, and we decided not to put it up." That seems to mean that it could have been up, but the decision was not to. Sounds to some of us as a convenient excuse. Nevertheless, we can disagree about the true motive behind removing the inflatable Crusader (along with all the coincidental removal of other images or mentions of Crusader from the website and elsewhere), but do we really want to get into the position of removing everything at the ARC that is getting to be in bad shape? ::)
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Really. Where would we be without the fans in the chairbacks! :rotfl: (Sorry, couldn't help myself!) ;)
LOL While I agree that some of the "chairbacks" are not in "good shape" :) like our Crusader friend, some of us feel it was and is a good addition to the atmosphere. While not a real big deal it is just one of the many little things that add to the ARC feel. Remember when we played Cleveland St. many years ago when they were very good, beating Indiana in the NCAA. One of their best players, "Mouse" McFadden, when introduced over the PA, was greeted with a raining of cheese slices from the students and some patrons, covering the floor with a big mess that took quite awhile to clean up, delaying the start of the game. Talk about a fun atmosphere!
So I just listened to the podcast and he did say it was in bad shape and that it was not worth the cost of money to replace it and that they'd rather put the money elsewhere. Also he stated that Athletics was not moving away from being the crusaders in that it is still on uniforms and that we are the crusaders but that the brand Valpo is what is known and so that is what they are highlighting.
This seems to be a super emotional argument for some people and anyone is free to believe that Mark et al are lying but I don't know that the podcast really led me to feel that this is much more than a refocus on branding which happens all the time. I also think that perhaps splitting the difference between maintaining the mascot name and also refocusing some more of our imagery on our shield of character which is a part of the Crusader logo and costume is not necessarily a bad compromise if the University feels the Crusader name can bring up negative connotations with some people.
Quote from: crusader05 on December 17, 2018, 01:18:45 PM
So I just listened to the podcast and he did say it was in bad shape and that it was not worth the cost of money to replace it and that they'd rather put the money elsewhere. Also he stated that Athletics was not moving away from being the crusaders in that it is still on uniforms and that we are the crusaders but that the brand Valpo is what is known and so that is what they are highlighting.
This seems to be a super emotional argument for some people and anyone is free to believe that Mark et al are lying but I don't know that the podcast really led me to feel that this is much more than a refocus on branding which happens all the time. I also think that perhaps splitting the difference between maintaining the mascot name and also refocusing some more of our imagery on our shield of character which is a part of the Crusader logo and costume is not necessarily a bad compromise if the University feels the Crusader name can bring up negative connotations with some people.
B
His point relative to mascot name recognition is a valid one. He pointed to Gonzaga (their mascot?) how about other mids. St Joseph?, St. Bonaventure? George Mason? Davidson? Or maybe UMass, or even Villanova? How about Seton Hall? People across the country will be much more likely to think Valpo rather than Crusaders.
Quote from: valpo64 on December 17, 2018, 01:00:58 PMraining of cheese slices from the students and some patrons
at least the cheese slices were WRAPPED!
It's funny that before I listened to the podcast I was thinking about how there are certain school where I feel like their mascot is intrinsic to who they are vs other schools and Gonzaga and Villanova were the first that popped into my head so maybe that's why it rang true to me as well.
Also it may be harder for me, who is immersed in campus life pretty deeply to feel like there is any real threat to the crusader and by extension the Religious component to the campus. I am sitting here having spent recent money at the book store to buy multiple items of clothing that have the crusader on it or say crusaders I have heard brand new students be taught our school song and have often seen internal marketing include references to the crusader. But I do feel like the idea that we are "Valpo" stands outside of the idea that we the Valpo Crusaders. I see it even with alums of my generation who say "go valpo" and not "go crusaders".
Now maybe i'm wrong and the Crusader will soon go the way of the dodo but if so it will happen many many years in the future and at the behest of Alumni, not professors.
When I see excuses, explanations, justifications, and acceptances or just plain downplaying by anyone at Valpo about the steady and deliberate removal of the Crusader image, and now at an increasing rate, until it will eventually (and not too far off) be eliminated from all elements of campus, I'm reminded of the Monty Python Black Knight sketch (Google it!) where until it's too late the legless and armless figure left behind and bleeding on a road responds to every amputation of all four of his limbs with a simple comment of denial: "Tis but just a scratch!"
If the big mascot was wanted they would find the money. Vinyl is not the most expensive of materials. Back to collusion across faculty/admin/AD.
The Crusader mascot is in attendance at the Ball State game this evening
I was going to buy an Lamborghini Diablo, but I didn't want to offend the VU PC Police per Satan.
I almost got a Smart Car, but I thought that might be offensive against non-gifted folks.
So, I thought picking a car model with numbers would be safe, but a Porsche 911 was too Bin Laden-y.
After exhausting my options, I got a bike instead. I'm miserable, but at least nobody's offended.
Quote from: valpo64 on December 17, 2018, 01:00:58 PMRemember when we played Cleveland St. many years ago when they were very good, beating Indiana in the NCAA. One of their best players, "Mouse" McFadden, when introduced over the PA, was greeted with a raining of cheese slices from the students and some patrons, covering the floor with a big mess that took quite awhile to clean up, delaying the start of the game. Talk about a fun atmosphere!
And I remember the technical foul when the cheese kept flying after the game started.
Quote from: hailcrusaders on December 17, 2018, 07:19:09 PM
The Crusader mascot is in attendance at the Ball State game this evening
As I was watching I did notice that the word "Crusaders" is kinda hard to miss as it is in very big letters at both ends of the court. Also, the current ad narrated by Coach Lottich, "We are Crusaders", would indicate that there is no real effort to distance the University from the nickname.
Quote from: vu72 on December 18, 2018, 10:15:26 AM
Quote from: hailcrusaders on December 17, 2018, 07:19:09 PM
The Crusader mascot is in attendance at the Ball State game this evening
As I was watching I did notice that the word "Crusaders" is kinda hard to miss as it is in very big letters at both ends of the court. Also, the current ad narrated by Coach Lottich, "We are Crusaders", would indicate that there is no real effort to distance the University from the nickname.
The university will keep the nickname if possible, but significantly diminish its use, and they will fade out the Crusader image when they can afford to re-design the basketball floor. (Ironically, the Crusader's best ally for survival right now is the university's lack of funding to make the change to the court without it seeming so obvious that other needed changes to the ARC aren't also made.) As was done at Holy Cross, the image will become only the VU Shield, and the Crusader eventually will be retired as an image just as the big Crusader was removed. As I noted previously, Valpo is closely following the Holy Cross process of "re-branding." Holy Cross just eliminated all images of its Crusader, even on the center floor of its basketball court, because it was not an inclusive image, but thus far kept the nickname "Crusader" against the wishes of faculty and re-defined it to be politically correct, as news reports note: "The small Catholic college reaffirmed that students, athletes, and alumni will continue to be known as Crusaders
who fight for social justice."
https://www.telegram.com/news/20180315/holy-cross-to-dump-knight-mascot-keep-crusaders-name (https://www.telegram.com/news/20180315/holy-cross-to-dump-knight-mascot-keep-crusaders-name)