So barring a miracle run in St Louis this year is pretty much done. And we'll have several months to dissect this season, so I'll leave that until tomorrow.
So here's my question:
What would need to happen for you to consider the 2019-2020 season a success? What needs to happen for you to be ok with a Lottich extension?
And I ask because I honestly don't know what I think yet. A top half finish? Top 3? Very unlikely we go from back to back Thursday nights to a Sunday appearance. What has to happen 12 months from now for you to say, "I support the direction of this program."
Win Arch Madness.
Success is what it has always looked like in this program -- an NCAA tourney berth. Anything short of that is not successful.
With respect, don't think either of those is happening.
In previous years I would have said really competing for the conference championship and a postseason NCAA or NIT tournament. With this team I would say somehow avoiding the Thursday game in the conference tournament would exceed my expectations.
NIT or NCAA appearance or bust. But, seeing as just about all the same guys will back unless 3 or 4 of them develop a 3point shot it might get a little more salty in these parts.
If we had another coach and the same group of players next year. Top 3 finish and championship game is realistic. Ceiling with this coach is top half and one win in St. Louis.
If everybody returns and returns healthy I still see top 70 potential. When Fazekas ain't Fazekas, Golder ain't Golder and Evelyn ain't Evelyn eventually the whole team is sleepwalking through the motions. Tonight I didn't recognize anybody who played or coached.
Can we play any worse vs Evansville? Maybe I should sacrifice a chicken, use my ticket to start a bonfire, and perform an exorcism. Everybody can come and participate but you'll have to bring your own bird.
what we saw out there doesn't seem like what Matt's comments in the article this eeek were leading up to ...seems like we packed it in tight!
Success is 12 wins, or a Lottich firing. I'll be happy with one of those. His guys didn't play with any effort tonight, and that was the last thing we had to hang our hats on.
Now, we all know that won't happen, so I'll set a third criterion: Wholesale changes in the athletic department leadership. ... But I know that's even less likely than 12 wins or a coaching change.
I'll revisit this thread tomorrow when I'm hopefully feeling less ashamed of being a Valpo basketball fan. Maybe I'll change my mimd.
NIT
Plum, I hope you're saying 12 conference wins, right? Lol I'd hope to God we could get more than 12 total wins.
In 15-16, we had 30 wins. We've had 29 total in the 17-18 and 18-19 seasons combined.
With an Alec Peters team in the Horizon during the 16/17 season, we had 24 wins.
I'd say yes regular season conference championship should be a realistic goal IF everybody sticks around. Minimum top 3.
In addition, we'd need 24+ wins on the season along with an ncaa or nit birth.
Quote from: GoldenCrusader87 on February 28, 2019, 06:13:34 AM
Plum, I hope you're saying 12 conference wins, right?
Yep, 12 conference wins. I've started thinking of non-conference almost like pre-season baseball but more exciting.
Plum - makes sense. Just checking 👍
Nine conference wins at a minimum.
If we don't finish top 2 and don't have a $hit load of injuries, that should be the goal. Bottom half and we need a change. We will be LOADED with seniors and who knows who else will be added. We should have a minimum of two new players. So, I'm wondering, what type of injury would keep you from dressing for basicly the entire season, and NOT require surgery? If you needed surgery why would you wait till the end of the season? Something weird is going on.
2 wins more than what we have this year.....
I honestly don't know how to measure success do we measure it against the historic highs under Bryce or relative to what Matt has yielded? Those are two very different answers. Do we base success on what we think this team can do--what we have led ourselves to believe to keep ourselves interested and excited--or do we base it on what this team has shown so far?
Getting some mental toughness, which I feel this team/program lacks
Paul
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on February 28, 2019, 07:56:35 PM
I honestly don't know how to measure success do we measure it against the historic highs under Bryce or relative to what Matt has yielded? Those are two very different answers. Do we base success on what we think this team can do--what we have led ourselves to believe to keep ourselves interested and excited--or do we base it on what this team has shown so far?
IMO, it's not really fair to measure ML against the historic highs under Bryce. Those were unbelievable years that might never be replicated. I say consistently finishing upper half in the MVC and getting to the NCAAT every 5 years or so would be a great result for this program.
Eddie,
Fair - but, do you really think those results would be satisfying to the fan base?
wouldn't that be on par with what Bryce did over the last ten years. 2 tournament first lost appearances and the NIT run which was our first post-season win in how long?
We should be better than we are but it's not like we were a perennial tournament team and it's not like even with our best team in ages we didn't lose in the conference tournament champtionship.
If Fazekas, Golder, and Bakari were fully healthy all conference season we would have won 4 more games so far and would beat Evansville this weekend. That is 12-6 this year.
So anything above that next year is good. I said before conference play this year we should have been 12-6 or 11-7 at worst. I am VERY confident we would have achieved that goal with these 2 out of these 3 playing at or near full capacity for that 18 game stretch.
I really don't see how anybody can argue with this statement considering how close some of our games this year and how painfully obvious it was players were still in pain upon returning.
Official Prediction:
If during the 18 game conference season next year we are near full health for the majority of it with all of our players back from this team and our new additions..... 14-4 and top 2 in the conference.
Quote from: SanityLost17 on March 01, 2019, 07:41:59 AMIf Fazekas, Golder, and Bakari were fully healthy all conference season we would have won 4 more games so far and would beat Evansville this weekend. That is 12-6 this year.
That is correct in my opinion. We lost 4 games by a total of 20 points--2 in OT. We HAD the weapons, even with Bakari's lost season.
Clearly if we were healthy we would have had a better record, probably avoiding the play in game. But 12-6? I find that hard to process. I get the point differential. But this is still the team that lost at home to UIndy and High Point, got destroyed by Ball State, and lacks any meaningful wins.
I understand the argument, because I don't believe it's a talent issue. So we come back to coaching........
And I hate to keep coming back to this but MOST and Drake have first year head coaches with massive roster turnover. That fact alone negates some of the "Trust the Process" rhetoric we hear.
This season has almost lowered my expectations for next season.
I want to say tourney or bust but that's a little unrealistic expectations. This 19-20 senior laden season has been talked about for years now it's suppose to be THE YEAR. It's make or break for this squad. If we don't finish at the top of the Valley or aren't viewed as a serious contender to win it all at Arch Madness than this season would be a failure in my eyes. If we're healthy and have that many upperclassmen and can't be considered one the favorites than it will be a disappointing year in my eyes.
Great article on what we need to do next year and in the off season, by Robbie Weinstein.
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/robbie-weinstein-if-injuries-strike-again-valpo-needs-better-fall/article_cf3ceb32-8cef-5f87-8d81-abbd28441bb0.html
I hate to be a Debbie (or Donnie if you prefer) Downer here but I have lowered my expectations considerably for next year. I really only see one Senior/ grad student who made any progress this year and that's Smits and he is about where I thought he should have been last year. Having a senior laden team should be great as you should have players with three years of experience. But there is a difference between three years of experience and one year of experience three times which is about the performance level they've shown this year. Their shooting has dropped off, they still don't make free throws consistently, and they turn it over way too much. Injuries may account for some of the shooting drop off, but they don't take care of the ball and they don't make free throws when they need to. No excuse for those things. One more win in conference, maybe two if they somehow pull out a win Saturday, is not much improvement year over year. So I have set my expectations for next year the same as they were for this year. That is 5th place in conference. Difference is for this year I thought I was being conservative, while for next year I think I'm being optimistic. Now if they somehow manage better than 5th, I will consider that a successful season for this team.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 01, 2019, 08:23:05 AM
Clearly if we were healthy we would have had a better record, probably avoiding the play in game. But 12-6? I find that hard to process. I get the point differential. But this is still the team that lost at home to UIndy and High Point, got destroyed by Ball State, and lacks any meaningful wins.
I understand the argument, because I don't believe it's a talent issue. So we come back to coaching........
And I hate to keep coming back to this but MOST and Drake have first year head coaches with massive roster turnover. That fact alone negates some of the "Trust the Process" rhetoric we hear.
11 point loss @ home to Drake.. No Smits, Golder, or Fazekas with Bakari playing the season at like 60%.
OT loss to MoSt.. No Golder, Fazekas with Baraki playing the season at like 605
9 point lead with 7 to go point Meltdown against Loyola... No Fazekas with both Golder AND Bakari shadows of their former selves.
OT loss to IndSt... Fazekas/Golder/Bakari all shadows of their former selves.
There are your 4 wins right there. Maybe we lose 1 of them but then I think we probably steal one of the IndSt/Eville road games.
Don't let your anger for Lottich blind you from what is right in front of you. Those 4 games were loses because WE HAVE NO DEPTH and the 3 players talked about MOST on this board prior to the season were either out or shadows of their former selves.
Quote from: vu72 on March 01, 2019, 08:32:18 AM
Great article on what we need to do next year and in the off season, by Robbie Weinstein.
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/robbie-weinstein-if-injuries-strike-again-valpo-needs-better-fall/article_cf3ceb32-8cef-5f87-8d81-abbd28441bb0.html
"Injuries are a part of basketball," Fazekas said last week. Valparaiso knows this, as Lottich has gone to great lengths not to make "excuses" for his team's recent failures.Really! Maybe he's talking about Lottich's quotes in the Times but in press conferences and the weekly coaches show Lottich has done nothing but make excuses which has been well documented on this message board.
Agreed, I've enjoyed Robbie's writing this year and appreciate having a fresh set of eyes on the program. But this article says nothing. First of all, yes the line on excuses was laughable, and maybe the quotation marks there was a wink and a nod to that. So we need better fall back options? Agreed, but there wasn't really any suggestions there. Pursue a good 3 pt shooter as a grad transfer if/when a scholarship opens up? Look into bringing in a "shot doctor" or something similar as part of an offseason program? Redesign the offense (please) to not break down when one reverse pass is cut off.
"The Crusaders need to dedicate as many resources as possible to grooming Robinson, Gordon and Freeman-Liberty to function as go-to scorers if necessary." That just doesn't bring any new ideas to the table.
Quote from: vu72 on March 01, 2019, 08:32:18 AM
Great article on what we need to do next year and in the off season, by Robbie Weinstein.
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/robbie-weinstein-if-injuries-strike-again-valpo-needs-better-fall/article_cf3ceb32-8cef-5f87-8d81-abbd28441bb0.html
Nice article. I see that Coach Lottich mentioned they would work to determine if injuries could be reduced. I know many on the board have claimed all injuries are just "bad luck" and aren't preventable, but I don't necessarily agree. At least half the available players have suffered ankle injuries during the season, so I'd at least be exploring preventative stretching/strengthening of the lower leg and foot. Were the players taped or wearing braces when injured? Were their shoes worn and lacking support?
Ultimately, there may be nothing that can be done, but it would be negligent to not at least take a closer look at prevention.
I would like to see "Plum" discuss and evaluate the present and future outlooks for the other MVC teams relating to their finish this season, beginning with Loyola, Southern Illinois and Evansville.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 01, 2019, 08:23:05 AM
Clearly if we were healthy we would have had a better record, probably avoiding the play in game. But 12-6? I find that hard to process. I get the point differential. But this is still the team that lost at home to UIndy and High Point, got destroyed by Ball State, and lacks any meaningful wins.
I understand the argument, because I don't believe it's a talent issue. So we come back to coaching........
And I hate to keep coming back to this but MOST and Drake have first year head coaches with massive roster turnover. That fact alone negates some of the "Trust the Process" rhetoric we hear.
So you evidently think that being 5-1 against 5 of the top 6 teams in the conference to start conference play was just a fluke? With out the injuries and the subsequent loss of confidence in the offense I think this
team could have easily been 12-6. I emphasis the word team because as I have said before, this group does not have a "complete" player on the roster, it requires all of the working parts to compliment each other in order to win games.
Comparing Drake and VU is not apples to apples. After the loss of Norton the Drake roster has been completely stable with the same rotation. If a similar player (Tremell Murphy for instance) on the Drake roster would have had the same injury as Golder and other injuries had required rotation changes, I think that Drake could have easily mirrored what has happened to VU. Drake lost 3 of the 4 games when Norton was lost and before the current starting rotation came together. Valpo has not had that luxury, as the lineup has fluctuated with players coming in and out of the rotation and quite frankly players never getting back close to healthy.
I definitely think some or most of this is due to injury or recovery (Bakari) type issues, but go to this stat page and tell me that our roster is matching up favorably with other talent in the MVC
MVC Conference Statistical Leaders (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/mvc/2019.html)
Quote from: EddieCabot on March 01, 2019, 11:06:44 AM
Quote from: vu72 on March 01, 2019, 08:32:18 AM
Great article on what we need to do next year and in the off season, by Robbie Weinstein.
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/robbie-weinstein-if-injuries-strike-again-valpo-needs-better-fall/article_cf3ceb32-8cef-5f87-8d81-abbd28441bb0.html
Nice article. I see that Coach Lottich mentioned they would work to determine if injuries could be reduced. I know many on the board have claimed all injuries are just "bad luck" and aren't preventable, but I don't necessarily agree. At least half the available players have suffered ankle injuries during the season, so I'd at least be exploring preventative stretching/strengthening of the lower leg and foot. Were the players taped or wearing braces when injured? Were their shoes worn and lacking support?
Ultimately, there may be nothing that can be done, but it would be negligent to not at least take a closer look at prevention.
Great argument. I have been coaching for 9 years (different sport) and I can tell you I had the most injuries in my first 3 years. Some in my second 3 years. And very few in my last 3 years. Knowing when to push and when to hold back is a real thing that takes experience. Perhaps fire the strength and conditioning coach?
Robbie's column was good, but there's another element here -- don't redshirt guys who are otherwise healthy or eligible. Playing an untested freshman is better than playing nobody, or having to go with seven or eight guys night after night through the grind of a conference season.
Ball State has seen their season unravel similarly this year due to injuries during conference play, and there's been a lot of criticism of their coaching staff on social media for choosing to redshirt their two incoming freshmen this year even as the roster grew perilously thin (one of the players being redshirted was an Indiana All-Star last year and almost certainly could have contributed enough to flip a few of their close losses this season).
Gordon will help free up the offense next year. Hopefully fazekas is healthy for the entire season. We need another consistent scorer to go with Freeman. Talent level should be there. Freeman, gordon, fazekas, and smits should be a really solid offensive group. Cautiously optimistic about 1 or 2 but we should absolutely be in the top half.
My top 70 prediction would translate to 12-6 minimum. My best case (13-5) would require luck with everyone returning healthy and avoiding any major injuries. Remember that the conference RPI and NET should rise significantly and perhaps dramatically. Our rise could be the best in the Valley.
Mileek gave us 10 good minutes against Loyola and that is about it. I think he goes--his choice. This could benefit him and the team. I just don't see where he will find any playing time.
Sackey has started 17 games, played 550 minutes for an average of 18.3 per game. I can imagine him making big improvements and still seeing flat or reduced minutes. The way his role develops will tell us volumes about our total team potential. The competition will require him to deliver on some of his promise.
I don't think Milleek goes. I still think the most likely is one of the centers. Either Sorrola decides to go play abroad and make some money or Smits decides he's okay with sitting more to play for a higher level team.
I'd also say either Micah or Bakari might leave based on injuries. Back injuries are horrible to recover from and if I was Bakari I wouldn't want to mentally put myself through another year like this if the recovery isn't there.
My guess is we lose 1-2 of our seniors and that we shouldn't replace them with redshirt transfers unless we absolutely have too. One planned redshirt a season is find, but two means you're risking a lot of issues with injuries popping up.
Quote from: bigmosmithfan1 on March 01, 2019, 12:50:26 PM
Robbie's column was good, but there's another element here -- don't redshirt guys who are otherwise healthy or eligible. Playing an untested freshman is better than playing nobody, or having to go with seven or eight guys night after night through the grind of a conference season.
Ball State has seen their season unravel similarly this year due to injuries during conference play, and there's been a lot of criticism of their coaching staff on social media for choosing to redshirt their two incoming freshmen this year even as the roster grew perilously thin (one of the players being redshirted was an Indiana All-Star last year and almost certainly could have contributed enough to flip a few of their close losses this season).
Fair enough, however, remember that when the transfers were added and the resulting sit a year came into play, Coach was assuming we would also have a healthy Micah Bradford, who showed a lot of improvement when he switched to the point last year. So we started the year with 10 scholarship players. That pushed Sackey to play big minutes. Last year Micah had 68 assists to 38 turnovers, and, although he wasn't a very consistent 3 point shooter, clearly had the ability to knock down those shots.
Quote from: valpo64 on March 01, 2019, 11:27:24 AM
I would like to see "Plum" discuss and evaluate the present and future outlooks for the other MVC teams relating to their finish this season, beginning with Loyola, Southern Illinois and Evansville.
This sounds fun, but it would be a largely statistical analysis since I don't have time to watch many games that Valpo isn't playing in.
I just might do it though, and I'll strive to be critical of every coach in the Valley just to be as even-handed as possible ;D
I just want this team to be fun to watch again. When they're not frustrating, they're incredibly boring. They barely attempt any 3s, and when they do, it's ugly. They don't play in transition, don't play small, and don't move the ball around well. I don't think I've seen a transition 3 in three years. Even their wins are boring. Nobody wants to watch their team score 55 points and shoot 43% in a win.
I hope Lottich realizes he's on the hot seat and opens up the offense a little bit. These games are just brutal to watch.
Absolutely agree. I have been trying to say that exact thing.
Being on the hot seat with fans is different than being on the hot seat with the AD.
But is he on the hot seat with the AD? I have no doubt he is with the fans but what does the ADthink of this? It can't (or at least it shouldn't ) sit well with him. After all, his legacy is tied to our post Drew success. He did not hire the Drews he gets no credit for that success outside of the conference moves. How he'll be remembered is tied to how this coach and the next one if need be perform. I don't want to sound harsh but for me it's that simple.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 02, 2019, 08:24:34 PM
But is he on the hot seat with the AD? I have no doubt he is with the fans but what does the ADthink of this? It can't (or at least it shouldn't ) sit well with him. After all, his legacy is tied to our post Drew success. He did not hire the Drews he gets no credit for that success outside of the conference moves. How he'll be remembered is tied to how this coach and the next one if need be perform. I don't want to sound harsh but for me it's that simple.
I agree to a certain extent. I really like MLB, but if Lottich does turn out to be a dud and sets the program back it will be a major black eye on his legacy. But when he knows ML isn't the guy anymore that is the time he has to know it's time to move on. Don't wait out the rest of the contract if he gets that extension. Idk maybe Lottich is the guy still but it doesn't take a basketball savant to know things haven't worked out the last 2 seasons. I just hope he's talking to others in the basketball industry when evaluating Lottich's performance. Things can't just be blamed on injuries.
I'd also add his legacy will be heavily weighted on if he can get major ARC renovations completed.
Quote from: VU2014 on March 02, 2019, 08:35:22 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on March 02, 2019, 08:24:34 PMBut is he on the hot seat with the AD? I have no doubt he is with the fans but what does the ADthink of this? It can't (or at least it shouldn't ) sit well with him. After all, his legacy is tied to our post Drew success. He did not hire the Drews he gets no credit for that success outside of the conference moves. How he'll be remembered is tied to how this coach and the next one if need be perform. I don't want to sound harsh but for me it's that simple.
I agree to a certain extent. I really like MLB, but if Lottich does turn out to be a dud and sets the program back it will be a major black eye on his legacy. But when he knows ML isn't the guy anymore that is the time he has to know it's time to move on. Don't wait out the rest of the contract if he gets that extension. Idk maybe Lottich is the guy still but it doesn't take a basketball savant to know things haven't worked out the last 2 seasons. I just hope he's talking to others in the basketball industry when evaluating Lottich's performance. Things can't just be blamed on injuries. I'd also add his legacy will be heavily weighted on if he can get major ARC renovations completed.
Should we really hold that against him given the incredible and unfair headwinds he faces from this stubborn anti-athletics administration? I mean ARC renos? That sounds like work... Can't we just keep sponging off the MVC Tournament representatives and the credits they generate? That's free money and doesn't require us to do anything. We like that.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 02, 2019, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: VU2014 on March 02, 2019, 08:35:22 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on March 02, 2019, 08:24:34 PMBut is he on the hot seat with the AD? I have no doubt he is with the fans but what does the ADthink of this? It can't (or at least it shouldn't ) sit well with him. After all, his legacy is tied to our post Drew success. He did not hire the Drews he gets no credit for that success outside of the conference moves. How he'll be remembered is tied to how this coach and the next one if need be perform. I don't want to sound harsh but for me it's that simple.
I agree to a certain extent. I really like MLB, but if Lottich does turn out to be a dud and sets the program back it will be a major black eye on his legacy. But when he knows ML isn't the guy anymore that is the time he has to know it's time to move on. Don't wait out the rest of the contract if he gets that extension. Idk maybe Lottich is the guy still but it doesn't take a basketball savant to know things haven't worked out the last 2 seasons. I just hope he's talking to others in the basketball industry when evaluating Lottich's performance. Things can't just be blamed on injuries. I'd also add his legacy will be heavily weighted on if he can get major ARC renovations completed.
Should we really hold that against him given the incredible and unfair headwinds he faces from this stubborn anti-athletics administration? I mean ARC renos? That sounds like work... Can't we just keep sponging off the MVC Tournament representatives and the credits they generate? That's free money and doesn't require us to do anything. We like that.
Time for a couple reality checks: 1) I doubt Lottich would not be allowed to complete his contract and show what he can do with next year's team, which everyone felt would be promising with so many seniors (assuming they all stay) and the two transfers, especially since the first two years in the MVC were with teams mostly recruited for the Horizon League and hampered by a sudden absence of the leading scorers (Burton and Fazekas). Continuing as coach next year will be up to Lottich, and I think (hope) the plan is that Matt can right the ship next season the way Drake did this year and Loyola the year before. 2) As much as I would like to see changes in facilities, perhaps like those at the Gentile Center in Loyola, unless there are private donors who are going to give a large sum specifically for the ARC, there likely will be no significant renovations in the next few years. Due to budget limitations, I believe Heckler is constrained in spending, making him reluctant to divert much new funding to athletics, and if he did there would be strong opposition from many on campus.
Budget constraints? But the endowment drive is going well and generating great returns. I understand that not everything in an endowment is liquid but it can't be that dire can it? What is causing these budget issues?
Our program is in very choppy waters right now. We may not have a couple of years to wait.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 02, 2019, 09:46:17 PM
Budget constraints? But the endowment drive is going well and generating great returns. I understand that not everything in an endowment is liquid but it can't be that dire can it? What is causing these budget issues?
Our program is in very choppy waters right now. We may not have a couple of years to wait.
You want changes?
Stop donating money
Tell them why
My parents have donated since I was there and I have also been a contributor although not as much as them
For what?
Not sure at this point....
Stop going to games
If enough people show their displeasure maybe there will be changes..and not just in terms of what has been mentioned here but other issues
As far as resources....From what I remember and I'm sure it's no different...the basketball team has the best of everything...much different than those of us that were on other athletic teams
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 02, 2019, 09:46:17 PMBudget constraints? But the endowment drive is going well and generating great returns. I understand that not everything in an endowment is liquid but it can't be that dire can it? What is causing these budget issues?
Honestly, I'm a little worried about the university. Advancement and Admissions are the only two areas where I interact with the school on any meaningful basis and I've come away thinking that things are a mess.
I think the plan was to grow enrollment to around 6K students. I'm not sure they're anywhere near that. Administrators were hired in anticipation for a boom that never came.
Also, in 2017 the market was booming, so everyone's endowments were generating great returns. Would be interested in seeing how our returns compared to similar schools.
Quote from: Valpo2013 on March 02, 2019, 10:10:58 PMYou want changes?
Stop donating money
Tell them why
My parents have donated since I was there and I have also been a contributor although not as much as them
For what?
Not sure at this point...
Last year is the first year we didn't donate to Valpo since we graduated. For whatever reason, the university never reached out and asked for anything. Hard to send a message by stopping donations, when they don't even care if you donate or not.
Consider yourself lucky. I get mail once a week asking for donations. I made a small donations after our last HL championship. I guess that's the last time we had direction and identity as a basketball program
Correct. I no longer donate (other than getting season tickets). Why donate to a place that's content with mediocrity? That's out of touch with reality. That doesn't do much of anything to improve the fan experience? All about academics? Ok. Then drop the athletics at this point if you're not committed to them. Joke. No thank you.
While I understand the sentiment behind these thoughts especially in light of the frustration these past two seasons have been you do realize that refusing to donate only feeds the problems we all complain about right? The AD could do a better job by telling us what is needed and how much it would require to get the things we need. It would be nice if they communicated a plan to us and told us how we can help. Why so secretive about everything?
I would have to say it's hard to guess what success will look like until we know how many players transfer after the season. If we don't lose anyone we need to be top 4 in conference to be successful. If we lose 3+ I would say avoid Thursday in tournament.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 03, 2019, 06:16:14 AM
Consider yourself lucky. I get mail once a week asking for donations. I made a small donations after our last HL championship. I guess that's the last time we had direction and identity as a basketball program
Literally two weeks after I walked across the graduation stage they sent an ad in the mail asking for donations before I even finished paying off my student loans. Just completely tone death.
Hahaha
Hopefully they tried to help you get a job first?!
The law school closing and the basketball team being terrible the last two years definitely makes me question why I continue to be a fan. Sounds like I'm not alone based on other posts.
I am not picking on this kid. I love the heart and intensity that John Kiser brings to every minute he plays. From that standpoint, I wish that all of our players had his qualities. However.............. one measure of a successful 2019-20 season will be characterized by John seeing fewer minutes (<10) as a defensive specialist and never starting a game. His frequent starts in the second half of the season glaringly exposed our lack of talented depth. If he sees less time, it will signal that our level of pure talent has been upgraded and we have a better opportunity for success.
Well-said, VULB
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 09, 2019, 09:56:03 AMI am not picking on this kid. I love the heart and intensity that John Kiser brings to every minute he plays. From that standpoint, I wish that all of our players had his qualities. However.............. one measure of a successful 2019-20 season will be characterized by John seeing fewer minutes (<10) as a defensive specialist and never starting a game. His frequent starts in the second half of the season glaringly exposed our lack of talented depth. If he sees less time, it will signal that our level of pure talent has been upgraded and we have a better opportunity for success.
Eureka!!! The self propessed non basketball expert (and forgive me if my interpretation is incorrect on that) points out the single biggest issue with the current program. Not John Kiser. Just that John Kiser is playing too much and what that really means.
We were among the worst 3 point shooting teams in D-1. Without Fazekas we may have been dead last. :o. Watching the OVC games showed me equivalent physical talents separated only by Belmont and Murray having multiple threats from deep. Their consistency is such that open misses are a surprise. With us I was shocked if one fell in.
If we were to drop from #350 to #175 in 3 point %, what could our 19-20 record look like? In my mind that is a realistic number that would open up the post and driving lanes for easier exploitation. Even backdoor plays magically appear. Suddenly Lottich starts winning and becomes a genius instead of a moron.
It could happen.
Quote from: justducky on March 09, 2019, 02:47:57 PMWe were among the worst 3 point shooting teams in D-1. Without Fazekas we may have been dead last. :o. Watching the OVC games showed me equivalent physical talents separated only by Belmont and Murray having multiple threats from deep. Their consistency is such that open misses are a surprise. With us I was shocked if one fell in. If we were to drop from #350 to #175 in 3 point %, what could our 19-20 record look like? In my mind that is a realistic number that would open up the post and driving lanes for easier exploitation. Even backdoor plays magically appear. Suddenly Lottich starts winning and becomes a genius instead of a moron. It could happen.
Golder and Evelyn's 3pt pct dropped by .100 each this year over last year's performance. No idea which is the outlier or if the true level lies somewhere in between but there seems to be some room for immediate improvement there. In addition, I'd think Freeman would improve over time. If he's to become the all around player we all hope, it's a must.
QUESTION: How do you turn 20% (or lower) three point shooters into 40% shooters?
Just shooting the same old shot 200 times every day isn't gonna guarantee improvement. If mechanics are wrong it merely reinforces bad habits. Will Valpo bring in consultants to remedy this or will the staff just tell players to just keep shooting. Well, they better bring in shooting experts. The investment will pay back ten-fold. It's just another way to effectively utilize the MBB budget. .........
And then there is free throw technique ........... is there a current practitioner of the Virgil Sweet method available to the program? Heck, the fallback is to just Google the major rules and it should help. I did. There are 20 specific steps. I was at Valpo from 1962-1966. Chuck Kriston, a Valpo HS grad, was a VU starter. He shot over 80% for his career at Valpo. VHS set a state record for shooting close to 80% as a team. Why are we not mining this incredible resource?
To be honest, right now I'd rather see $50K spent on these two things than an upgrade to the ARC. Man, we gotta win and improving these two techniques can turn things around big tme.
Today, there are ways to digitally record and assess body mechanics for specific movements. Valpo has a big problem here and this might be a way to address this. But it has to be sooner than later.
Quote from: valpolaw on March 03, 2019, 01:02:33 PM
The law school closing and the basketball team being terrible the last two years definitely makes me question why I continue to be a fan. Sounds like I'm not alone based on other posts.
I've done a terrible job of being a voice of reason lately, but let me just encourage everyone - don't give up! Good things may be around the next corner. Besides that, this board has never been stronger. We continue to add posters and discussion is more active than ever before. Let's keep it going.
Quote from: wh on March 09, 2019, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: valpolaw on March 03, 2019, 01:02:33 PM
The law school closing and the basketball team being terrible the last two years definitely makes me question why I continue to be a fan. Sounds like I'm not alone based on other posts.
I've done a terrible job of being a voice of reason lately, but let me just encourage everyone - don't give up! Good things may be around the next corner. Besides that, this board has never been stronger. We continue to add posters and discussion is more active than ever before. Let's keep it going.
I'd second your sentiment. I believe we have 2 strong contributors eligible after sitting out and I like the potential with Clay. Unlike Mileek, Clay appears more polished and ready to take on light minutes. Doubtful he is the same project that Mileek always was going to be.
While I don't discount attempting to improve the current team's ability to shoot 3 pointers and free throws, the real answer is to recruit better shooters as shooters are born rather than created for the most part. Anecdotally, I'm sure players who've improved their ability to shoot the ball can be pointed out but I'd offer that many more go completely unaffected by whatever "coaching" they receive and don't improve at all and we simply don't hear about them. In addition, we have no idea what steps Valpo has taken to improve any of the players ability to play the game in any fashion.
I love Valpo, I want see the school excel in all areas. I am concerned that either they need cash, they do not know how to maximize they assets, or they are way too conservative fiscally.
My daughter agreed to make a trip with me to tour the campus, but right now it is remote she will go there.
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 10, 2019, 12:34:00 PMI love Valpo, I want see the school excel in all areas. I am concerned that either they need cash, they do not know how to maximize they assets, or they are way too conservative fiscally. My daughter agreed to make a trip with me to tour the campus, but right now it is remote she will go there.
To varying degrees the problem could be all three of those issues.
Quote from: JD24 on March 10, 2019, 12:05:36 PM
While I don't discount attempting to improve the current team's ability to shoot 3 pointers and free throws, the real answer is to recruit better shooters as shooters are born rather than created for the most part. Anecdotally, I'm sure players who've improved their ability to shoot the ball can be pointed out but I'd offer that many more go completely unaffected by whatever "coaching" they receive and don't improve at all and we simply don't hear about them. In addition, we have no idea what steps Valpo has taken to improve any of the players ability to play the game in any fashion.
On the surface I'd agree to that statement with a clarification since I know your statement isn't intended literally. A player with the God given athleticism/size to not be embarrassed against D1 opponents must also carry the unrivaled work ethic and abilities necessary to be a sharp shooter.
I think Lottich wants to run guys, he really does as he's said it a bunch of times publicly. The issue he's come across is he was really gifted Smits and Sorolla was signee #2 within months of being hired. That was Bryce's system and you take those two because they are hard to come by at our level (HL or MVC). So if they develop we sort of have to use them on offense and thereby reduce the run and gun. The oversight was thinking that the athletes he recruited last two years could shoot well enough. We know most of them are athletic enough.
If players can run, dunk and shoot....they are B1G around here. Even Javon was not a true shooter despite his absurdly high IQ and defensive prowess.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 12:43:34 PMOn the surface I'd agree to that statement with a clarification since I know your statement isn't intended literally. A player with the God given athleticism/size to not be embarrassed against D1 opponents must also carry the unrivaled work ethic and abilities necessary to be a sharp shooter.
Since I've worked with kids in many sports from youth through high school what typically happens follows some sort of pattern of...applicable to shooting....kid at 8-9 years old shows the ability to shoot, likes the game and receives a lot of encouragement along those lines. There is some innate ability to have the proper hand/eye coordination to shoot. This ability is fortified throughout age group and high school ball at a time when most of what becomes of eventual athletes along with confidence and desire to succeed are being formed. Now a kid who was a good shooter in high school may take his game higher by working to become a more consistent shooter in college as time and room to shoot is usually reduced even if it is simply by the size of players. It doesn't always work. I've seen kids who were deadly shooters in high school go to college programs and not be able to come near their shooting percentages in high school.
One problem with mechanics for anything in sport is that most people, when stressed or tired, revert to old mechanics.
In Valpo's situation they have two players who fell way off in Evelyn and Golder this season from what they showed shooting the 3 last year. I doubt their mechanics deteriorate so it could be a multitude of multiple issues. Not getting the right looks in the right rhythm. Pace of play. Injury. Who knows? Hopefully they will bounce back and along with Fazekas and the new additions, the team will shoot better overall.
I think the board is looking for one answer.....and thus everyone wants to blame the coach or coaches because it's one move that will solve everything in everyone's mind....but it is probably many issues at the moment.
The team right now is one player from being Bryce Drew's team. Alec Peters. He was handed Broekhoff. He recruited Peters (didn't Lottich actually do that?) and Lottich did very well with the team he inherited from Drew until.....Peters was injured which left the team with a similar team to the current one. So how much has really changed from Drew to Lottich? One player? Maybe the issue(s) are much deeper than that.
On VU finances, there are many detailed facts in the "General University threads. As MJ said, in essence VU leadership designed a masterplan in 2013 that is "required to support the 6,000 student goal." That document is in the thread. Then they borrowed a lot of money under Heckler to build and expand buildings to serve 6,000 students.
But now the student numbers have not increased to any real degree. The enrollment went down last Fall. The speculation MLB will not receive more budget $ is likely correct. In this context, MLB and ML have performed well.
Why does it seem like everybody but us figured out that you build the marketing machine before the shiny toys? You hook them in with basketball then build all the cool stuff they'll love and appreciate?
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:24:39 PM
Why does it seem like everybody but us figured out that you build the marketing machine before the shiny toys? You hook them in with basketball then build all the cool stuff they'll love and appreciate?
Who is the HL had this figured out? I'd wager that MVC notoriety and dividends paid for much of the MVC dwellings. Loyola was going to do this in the HL?
Where's our Loyola level commitment to facility building? No budget increase or ARC renos for years despite the endowment doing gangbusters? Shouldn't that be paying down the debt to where it's no longer a concern? We've waited patiently for decades to see athletics funded to a level commensurate with the value they bring to the university and now we're still waiting? When will it be? 2030? 2050? Will most of us even live to see it? It's time to make basketball a priority with our actions and not just our words.
From what I understand, they also planned on having a good amount of the increase being foreign students whose governments or sponsers would pay full tuition. That hasn't panned out for both economic and political reasons.
(We debated this quite a bit if I recall. Not saying I agree or disagree, and not trying to relitigate that where we all end up retreating into partisan corners. That was the plan. Thus far, it hasn't worked).
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:53:02 PM
Where's our Loyola level commitment to facility building? No budget increase or ARC renos for years despite the endowment doing gangbusters? Shouldn't that be paying down the debt to where it's no longer a concern? We've waited patiently for decades to see athletics funded to a level commensurate with the value they bring to the university and now we're still waiting? When will it be? 2030? 2050? Will most of us even live to see it? It's time to make basketball a priority with our actions and not just our words.
How much of Loyola was post HL? How much was donor? How much as debt?
I'm going to level with you and say that these things are irrelevant to me because I'm impatient after waiting so long already but to my knowledge:
Mostly post HL and heavily donor focused.
I'm sorry I know the realities are what they are I'm just tired of losing and tired of waiting and tired of seeing what looks like indifference or grudging tolerance from decision makers. I just believe we can be more than we are and wish more people that matter feel the same way.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:24:39 PM
Why does it seem like everybody but us figured out that you build the marketing machine before the shiny toys? You hook them in with basketball then build all the cool stuff they'll love and appreciate?
Who is the HL had this figured out? I'd wager that MVC notoriety and dividends paid for much of the MVC dwellings. Loyola was going to do this in the HL?
The Gentile Center was built in 1996. Renovations began in 2011. Loyola joined the MVC in 2013. I'm sorry, what were you saying again?
Back on the topic of the thread, I looked back at some historic conference records when Valpo moved from the Mid-Con to the Horizon League under Homer Drew:
9-9 in 2007-9
5-13 in 2008-9
10-8 in 2009-10
I remember that after the 08-09 year in particular there were many negative posts about the team, both from VU fans and from supporters of other HL teams. Some were saying that Valpo should have never left the Mid-Con, and couldn't compete with the higher competition of the HL.
Clearly, it took some time (and some better players), yet after those three mediocre years the team showed substantial improvement. Now, Valpo is in a much better and more competitive league in the MVC, as the performance top to bottom is solid.
Is Valpo better positioned today than at the end of 2009? Yes, as I think a 5-13 mark is unlikely. Barring major injuries or wholesale transfers, a 10-8 or 11-7 conference record is very achievable, with upside to be even better depending on some new additions.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on March 10, 2019, 06:20:47 PMQuote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 05:45:22 PMQuote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:24:39 PMWhy does it seem like everybody but us figured out that you build the marketing machine before the shiny toys? You hook them in with basketball then build all the cool stuff they'll love and appreciate?
Who is the HL had this figured out? I'd wager that MVC notoriety and dividends paid for much of the MVC dwellings. Loyola was going to do this in the HL?
The Gentile Center was built in 1996. Renovations began in 2011. Loyola joined the MVC in 2013. I'm sorry, what were you saying again?
So they renovated pre MVC and after 15 years
Yet here we sit post MVC after 35 years with nary a plan or timetable.
What else am I to conclude but that we intend to be a barnacle on the good ship MVC leeching off the success of other programs but contributing nothing of our own? The higher ups don't care and want all of the benefits for none of the work...
Quote from: crusaderjoe on March 10, 2019, 06:20:47 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:24:39 PM
Why does it seem like everybody but us figured out that you build the marketing machine before the shiny toys? You hook them in with basketball then build all the cool stuff they'll love and appreciate?
Who is the HL had this figured out? I'd wager that MVC notoriety and dividends paid for much of the MVC dwellings. Loyola was going to do this in the HL?
The Gentile Center was built in 1996. Renovations began in 2011. Loyola joined the MVC in 2013. I'm sorry, what were you saying again?
Thanks for sharing, you misread my questions if snark was required on your part. Tone is lost when conversations aren't had face-to-face.
The reason for my questions were because I didn't know. All I know about Loyola is they had a big donation for the basketball practice facility.
I'd still be interested in knowing how it was funded. That's the most germane aspect of the questions I've posed. Thought maybe someone here might recall.
I'll hold off replying to you snarky-like in the hopes you weren't trying to punt me in the face. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 06:06:39 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:53:02 PM
Where's our Loyola level commitment to facility building? No budget increase or ARC renos for years despite the endowment doing gangbusters? Shouldn't that be paying down the debt to where it's no longer a concern? We've waited patiently for decades to see athletics funded to a level commensurate with the value they bring to the university and now we're still waiting? When will it be? 2030? 2050? Will most of us even live to see it? It's time to make basketball a priority with our actions and not just our words.
How much of Loyola was post HL? How much was donor? How much as debt?
Appears fund raising campaign for 2012 renovation
https://www.luc.edu/studentcomplex/gentilearena/ (https://www.luc.edu/studentcomplex/gentilearena/)
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 06:48:41 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 06:06:39 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:53:02 PM
Where's our Loyola level commitment to facility building? No budget increase or ARC renos for years despite the endowment doing gangbusters? Shouldn't that be paying down the debt to where it's no longer a concern? We've waited patiently for decades to see athletics funded to a level commensurate with the value they bring to the university and now we're still waiting? When will it be? 2030? 2050? Will most of us even live to see it? It's time to make basketball a priority with our actions and not just our words.
How much of Loyola was post HL? How much was donor? How much as debt?
Appears fund raising campaign for 2012 renovation
https://www.luc.edu/studentcomplex/gentilearena/ (https://www.luc.edu/studentcomplex/gentilearena/)
Let me be clear now, who of those asking for immediate ARC renovation is going to be the lead donor? It's easy to dream, and I admire the compassion but guys....it's all words until a lead donor steps up? Can we agree on that at least?
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 06:29:08 PMWhat else am I to conclude but that we intend to be a barnacle on the good ship MVC
Great idea! The Valparaiso Barnacles--- :thewave: It is accurate, politically correct and unique in the entire world of sports. What a recruiting pitch----Son---I want you to come to VU and be a Barnacle. :thumbsup: Will the board of directors have to approve our mascot name change?
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 06:41:00 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on March 10, 2019, 06:20:47 PM
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:24:39 PM
Why does it seem like everybody but us figured out that you build the marketing machine before the shiny toys? You hook them in with basketball then build all the cool stuff they'll love and appreciate?
Who is the HL had this figured out? I'd wager that MVC notoriety and dividends paid for much of the MVC dwellings. Loyola was going to do this in the HL?
The Gentile Center was built in 1996. Renovations began in 2011. Loyola joined the MVC in 2013. I'm sorry, what were you saying again?
Thanks for sharing, you misread my questions if snark was required on your part. Tone is lost when conversations aren't had face-to-face.
The reason for my questions were because I didn't know. All I know about Loyola is they had a big donation for the basketball practice facility.
I'd still be interested in knowing how it was funded. That's the most germane aspect of the questions I've posed. Thought maybe someone here might recall.
I'll hold off replying to you snarky-like in the hopes you weren't trying to punt me in the face. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Sorry, I was not meaning to be snarky. I missed some comments above as I was posting my comment. I read your comment meaning "dividend" as notoriety from being a member of the MVC, and by extension, the Final Four run, and not necessarily in the monetary or funding sense. Loyola was in the HL when both of these arena upgrades occurred so that could not have taken place. I guess I should have been more clearer on that point, as in what the word "dividend" meant. Again, sorry for the confusion.
And as a quick aside, Loyola really needs to be commended for their arena upgrades. Two major upgrades in 20 years...and yet we're still waiting for major arena upgrades to our venue as we speak.
Honest question: how many former Valpo athletes on the board of directors?
Loyola's arena upgrades happened in 2011. If arena upgrades are responsible for their final four run, what happened from 2011-2017?
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 10, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
Honest question: how many former Valpo athletes on the board of directors?
Good question, I don't know the answer but it appears that only (1) was at Valpo during the last 25-years...Lisa Grace '98.
Is it safe to say the lack of youth and or being a student at VU during our best sports decades is a detriment here?
Just questions...
Donors certainly help......I'm sure there are other avenues to upgrade the ARC that won't bring the university to it's knees.
If division II Southern Indiana can have nice things, by God the Crusaders can too.
Quote from: a3uge on March 10, 2019, 07:37:26 PM
Loyola's arena upgrades happened in 2011. If arena upgrades are responsible for their final four run, what happened from 2011-2017?
That's fine but you CAN'T look at that arena or Brown Field or the baseball field and think that people will want to come play here if we don't have a winning brand to sell them. We're in a serious conference with serious programs that gets multiple bids in multiple sports. If we want to be anything more than an also ran we need to do something fast. Either we need to start Winning or we need to at least make it look like we care about contending and winning or we'll get our lunch eaten.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 10, 2019, 07:45:52 PM
Donors certainly help......I'm sure there are other avenues to upgrade the ARC that won't bring the university to it's knees.
If division II Southern Indiana can have nice things, by God the Crusaders can too.
Next time I come to Tulsa-town I'll pickup your lead donor check buddy 😜😜😜
Think I owe you a hot tub that you left at my place from our college days, so that'll be a good start to your donation!
Still can't believe you wanted to put that on the roof of your rental above the tavern on Lincolnway. Sooo glad that I asked my mechanical engineer roommate to talk you out of that. Else you might have made the Torch paper for all the wrong reasons, haha
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 05:53:02 PMShouldn't that be paying down the debt to where it's no longer a concern?
j
No. The problem with the endowment and its recent good performance, is that the vast majority of the endowment funds are targeted at a specific objective. So so and so contributes $2,000,000 to fund a scholarship for the business school. The growth in those funds can not be used for anything else in the same way the $2,000,000 gift dedicated to basketball recruiting can't be use to pay down debt on the new Bio/Chem building.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 07:47:51 PM
Quote from: a3uge on March 10, 2019, 07:37:26 PM
Loyola's arena upgrades happened in 2011. If arena upgrades are responsible for their final four run, what happened from 2011-2017?
That's fine but you CAN'T look at that arena or Brown Field or the baseball field and think that people will want to come play here if we don't have a winning brand to sell them. We're in a serious conference with serious programs that gets multiple bids in multiple sports. If we want to be anything more than an also ran we need to do something fast. Either we need to start Winning or we need to at least make it look like we care about contending and winning or we'll get our lunch eaten.
There's a difference between Valpo's facilities hurting recruiting, and equating a final four run to a facility upgrade years ago, as in, if only Valpo had upgraded the ARC, they would have been the ones in the final four. People here had the same sentiment with Butler, who has been worse after recent renovations.
Facilities are an important part of the whole package. Butler is worse because they're playing Villanova Georgetown Seton Hall Marquette St John's Providence Xavier and Creighton twice a year. It's the competition not the facilities but they're not hurting for recruiting. There's a difference between trying and failing and not trying.
Our get hyped roster isn't anything to get excited about according to one MVC fan. Thinks we'll be fighting to avoid the PIG. I sure hope not. I hope we'll be better than that.
What we need is the right people to hear "If you build it...he will come"
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 08:25:51 PM
Our get hyped roster isn't anything to get excited about according to one MVC fan. Thinks we'll be fighting to avoid the PIG. I sure hope not. I hope we'll be better than that.
HAHAHA!! We beat the conference's NCAA representative and WE are the PIG?
To be fair most of the conference beat the NCAA rep.
Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on March 10, 2019, 07:40:08 PM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 10, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
Honest question: how many former Valpo athletes on the board of directors?
Good question, I don't know the answer but it appears that only (1) was at Valpo during the last 25-years...Lisa Grace '98.
Is it safe to say the lack of youth and or being a student at VU during our best sports decades is a detriment here?
Just questions...
There are a few members on the current board who participated in intercollegiate athletics during their years at Valpo. One is a retired athletics conference executive director. Another played while in college and is the father of a former basketball player, and father-in-law of a former athlete. Former Board members are Hall of Fame members. And, many Board members have given generously to the athletic department. In addition, there is an athletics committee of the Board that is composed of varied experiences of marketing, business and athletics. They are quite familiar with the current, recent past, and past history of athletics at VU and the current issues.
Should there be a discussion about ARC renovations, absolutely. Should there be discussions about a recreational facility for all students, absolutely. These issues and allocation of resources are not easy. There are short-term and long-term goals about the University. We on this Board are a subset of competing priorities and there are no easy answers, unless one of you know someone ready to drop $5-10 million on ARC renovations. If you do, please pass those names to MLB or John Kuka. I'll even forward their numbers or just send them a personal note on Twitter. They'd love to hear from you. Be proactive! Volunteer for a committee that interests you at the University. The alumni association and the various departments, including athletics, have committees.
Finally, interesting that despite building Gentile Center and renovating it since 1996, Loyola has 1 NCAA appearance, while Valpo has 9, including dealing with ever-evolving conferences. It doesn't mean you stay status quo, but we do have to do more with less, and it has been productive. These 3 seasons have been disappointing, and year 4 is important to establish an upward trajectory.
Well spoken, valpo84.
There is one reason why despite having bad facilities Valpo has 9 NCAAT appearances since 1996. Good consistent coaching staff. Sometimes the people (human capital) outweighs the facilities (physical capital).
Point well made. But everyone on this board would trade 9 NCAA appearances for one Final Four run.
Quote from: oklahomamick on March 11, 2019, 10:32:53 AM
There is one reason why despite having bad facilities Valpo has 9 NCAAT appearances since 1996. Good consistent coaching staff. Sometimes the people (human capital) outweighs the facilities (physical capital).
Point taken but what happens when you have neither good facilities nor good coaching?
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 09, 2019, 08:19:55 PM
QUESTION: How do you turn 20% (or lower) three point shooters into 40% shooters?
Just shooting the same old shot 200 times every day isn't gonna guarantee improvement. If mechanics are wrong it merely reinforces bad habits. Will Valpo bring in consultants to remedy this or will the staff just tell players to just keep shooting. Well, they better bring in shooting experts. The investment will pay back ten-fold. It's just another way to effectively utilize the MBB budget. .........
And then there is free throw technique ........... is there a current practitioner of the Virgil Sweet method available to the program? Heck, the fallback is to just Google the major rules and it should help. I did. There are 20 specific steps. I was at Valpo from 1962-1966. Chuck Kriston, a Valpo HS grad, was a VU starter. He shot over 80% for his career at Valpo. VHS set a state record for shooting close to 80% as a team. Why are we not mining this incredible resource?
To be honest, right now I'd rather see $50K spent on these two things than an upgrade to the ARC. Man, we gotta win and improving these two techniques can turn things around big tme.
Today, there are ways to digitally record and assess body mechanics for specific movements. Valpo has a big problem here and this might be a way to address this. But it has to be sooner than later.
There are many ways to digitally record and assess body mechanics, now there is a system using LIDAR that tracks ball flight angle and hoop entry position. Pretty cool, wish we had this when I was coaching. MAKE MORE SHOTS. WIN MORE GAMES. (https://www.noahbasketball.com)
Quote from: FWalum on March 11, 2019, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: VULB#62 on March 09, 2019, 08:19:55 PM
QUESTION: How do you turn 20% (or lower) three point shooters into 40% shooters?
Just shooting the same old shot 200 times every day isn't gonna guarantee improvement. If mechanics are wrong it merely reinforces bad habits. Will Valpo bring in consultants to remedy this or will the staff just tell players to just keep shooting. Well, they better bring in shooting experts. The investment will pay back ten-fold. It's just another way to effectively utilize the MBB budget. .........
And then there is free throw technique ........... is there a current practitioner of the Virgil Sweet method available to the program? Heck, the fallback is to just Google the major rules and it should help. I did. There are 20 specific steps. I was at Valpo from 1962-1966. Chuck Kriston, a Valpo HS grad, was a VU starter. He shot over 80% for his career at Valpo. VHS set a state record for shooting close to 80% as a team. Why are we not mining this incredible resource?
To be honest, right now I'd rather see $50K spent on these two things than an upgrade to the ARC. Man, we gotta win and improving these two techniques can turn things around big tme.
Today, there are ways to digitally record and assess body mechanics for specific movements. Valpo has a big problem here and this might be a way to address this. But it has to be sooner than later.
There are many ways to digitally record and assess body mechanics, now there is a system using LIDAR that tracks ball flight angle and hoop entry position. Pretty cool, wish we had this when I was coaching. MAKE MORE SHOTS. WIN MORE GAMES. (https://www.noahbasketball.com)
Look at Brook Lopez. He made 3 total three pointers in his first 8 seasons, and is now shooting 37%, making 2.4/6.4 a game. Certainly possible.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 11, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
Point well made. But everyone on this board would trade 9 NCAA appearances for one Final Four run.
Final Four is legit, sorry guys but at this point in time Loyola has the street credibility that trumps our Sweet 16 + sustained success (appearances). This is only a snap shot in time though, so we as a university decide where that snap shot goes from here.
Personally, I think Loyola really screwed an important piece to their snap shot by missing NCAA this year. If they don't start getting an appearance every 3 to 4 years they will fall right back to earth and then some. I still think we win the head-to-Head recruiting battles if in 4-years we've righted the ship and they keep missing the tournament as they have for most of the last 30+ years.
Right now Loyola > Valpo
So I thought it interesting to resurrect this thread on the eve of the season, and ask the question again: What does success look like for this season?
For me it's three things:
1. Finishing near or above .500 in overall record and in conference
2. No more than one major contributor transferring at the end of the season
3. An announcement of fundraising and/or concrete plans to renovate the ARC within a five year time period
These three things set us up very well going into the 20-21 season, and would speak well to the overall health of the program going forward.
The bar should be higher.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on September 10, 2019, 10:06:31 AM
So I thought it interesting to resurrect this thread on the eve of the season, and ask the question again: What does success look like for this season?
For me it's three things:
1. Finishing near or above .500 in overall record and in conference
2. No more than one major contributor transferring at the end of the season
3. An announcement of fundraising and/or concrete plans to renovate the ARC within a five year time period
These three things set us up very well going into the 20-21 season, and would speak well to the overall health of the program going forward.
Valpo was 7-11 in the MVC last year, so my guess is most fans won't be happy unless the team finishes in the top half of the league this year. Also, most schools don't announce renovation plans until they've got the funding for it and the work is going to happen in the very near term, so I'd shrink that 5 year window to 1 or maybe 2 depending on the renovation plans.
I do think this team has plenty of potential, particularly at the guard and wing positions. Will be interesting to see how the Center position develops over the course of the year.
Quote from: IrishDawg on September 11, 2019, 07:01:31 AM
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on September 10, 2019, 10:06:31 AM
So I thought it interesting to resurrect this thread on the eve of the season, and ask the question again: What does success look like for this season?
For me it's three things:
1. Finishing near or above .500 in overall record and in conference
2. No more than one major contributor transferring at the end of the season
3. An announcement of fundraising and/or concrete plans to renovate the ARC within a five year time period
These three things set us up very well going into the 20-21 season, and would speak well to the overall health of the program going forward.
Valpo was 7-11 in the MVC last year, so my guess is most fans won't be happy unless the team finishes in the top half of the league this year. Also, most schools don't announce renovation plans until they've got the funding for it and the work is going to happen in the very near term, so I'd shrink that 5 year window to 1 or maybe 2 depending on the renovation plans.
I do think this team has plenty of potential, particularly at the guard and wing positions. Will be interesting to see how the Center position develops over the course of the year.
Once the transfers were gone, and the new faces showed, I made the comment that I'd rather see the newcomers finish 10th than watch the incumbents finish 9th (which is where they finished last year). That's still true. In terms of measuring success, that comment may be misplaced, and could be a reminder to myself that expectations and wishes should be measured in long term perspective. However, long term perspective should not measure year 3 in comparison to year 2. "Success" in Year 3 in the short term perspective could be defined as finishing 7th or 8th, since it's better than the previous two years. However, Year 3 should be where VU wanted it to be on the day that it accepted. I don't think that sub-500 in year 3 should have defined "success" on that day.
So, with that being said, I agree with the three comments above, except, in No. 1, I'd delete the words "near or" as a measure of success. I suspect that this team will have extreme inconsistency due to youth and newness. But, even with the inevitable ugly moments and embarrassing dumb losses, there should be enough solid play and thrilling victories to advance. At year 3, as measured by long term perspective, "success" should not be sub-500.
We have lowered our expectations based on our recent results, coaching changes and player exodus.
Would we expect a middle of the pack finishing with the old coach and how the program was going then?
My expectations have not changed. The replacement should be expected to hold ground or improve.
Let's put this in a little perspective here, especially about how tough MVC is and how Loyola did in its first years in the conference. Over the last six years, if a team finished 10-8, it would have ranked as follows (inclusive of ties):
3rd (2018-19)
3rd (2017-18)
3rd (2016-17)
6th (2015-16)
4th (2014-15)
3rd (2013-14)
Over the same period, if a team finished 8-10, it would have ranked as follows (again, inclusive of ties)
8th (2018-19)
6th (2017-18)
5th (2016-17)
6th (2015-16)
6th (2014-15)
6th (2013-14)
What that says is that the league is tough and balanced, as a slight winning record likely puts that team into third place, even as a slight losing record means that team could finish 6th to 8th.
Consider Loyola's first four years in the conference, compared to Valpo:
Loyola year Valpo
8-10 (2016-17) n/a
7-11 (2015-16) n/a
8-10 (2014-15) 7-11 (2018-19)
4-14 (2013-14) 6-12 (2017-18)
All of that to say that if Valpo goes 7-11 this year and next year, it would have the exact same record as Loyola in their first four years in the conference. I think most fans would be disappointed in that outcome, yet most would expect them to win more than 14 conference games over the next two years. I see the potential for finishing in the upper half of the conference if the current trajectory continues.
With all of the roster changes and comparative inexperience of several of the players, I'm thinking that a 8-10 finish this year would show reasonable growth in a competitive conference. Next year a 10-8 or 11-7 finish would be achievable. Is that disappointing? Perhaps, yet it is realistic given the level of competition.
Quote from: valpo95 on September 11, 2019, 02:42:09 PM
Let's put this in a little perspective here, especially about how tough MVC is and how Loyola did in its first years in the conference. Over the last six years, if a team finished 10-8, it would have ranked as follows (inclusive of ties):
3rd (2018-19)
3rd (2017-18)
3rd (2016-17)
6th (2015-16)
4th (2014-15)
3rd (2013-14)
Over the same period, if a team finished 8-10, it would have ranked as follows (again, inclusive of ties)
8th (2018-19)
6th (2017-18)
5th (2016-17)
6th (2015-16)
6th (2014-15)
6th (2013-14)
What that says is that the league is tough and balanced, as a slight winning record likely puts that team into third place, even as a slight losing record means that team could finish 6th to 8th.
Consider Loyola's first four years in the conference, compared to Valpo:
Loyola year Valpo
8-10 (2016-17) n/a
7-11 (2015-16) n/a
8-10 (2014-15) 7-11 (2018-19)
4-14 (2013-14) 6-12 (2017-18)
All of that to say that if Valpo goes 7-11 this year and next year, it would have the exact same record as Loyola in their first four years in the conference. I think most fans would be disappointed in that outcome, yet most would expect them to win more than 14 conference games over the next two years. I see the potential for finishing in the upper half of the conference if the current trajectory continues.
With all of the roster changes and comparative inexperience of several of the players, I'm thinking that a 8-10 finish this year would show reasonable growth in a competitive conference. Next year a 10-8 or 11-7 finish would be achievable. Is that disappointing? Perhaps, yet it is realistic given the level of competition.
I disagree with your approach. VU was better than Loyola when Loyola joined the MVC. In Loyola's final 6 years in the HL, VU's win-loss record against Loyola was 7-5. The record was 6-2 over the final 4 years. So, had VU joined the MVC at the same time, VU should have expected a better record. Since that time, Creighton and WSU have left. Over the VU's final 10 years in the HL, VU was 7-1 (excluding record against Loyola) against the MVC. If Loyola's time in the HL is included, then VU's record was 14-6 against MVC teams.
VU's record against the MVC, coupled with the departure of Creighton and WSU tell me that VU should have expected a better win-loss percentage in its first year. If each year should produce an incrementally better win-loss record, then in year 3, the reasonable expectation, as measured by history, should be better than .500.
I don't think we should be setting our expectations based on Loyola's performance at the time of its entry.
You are comparing a Loyola that finished last or near last the last 4 years of the HL and then moving to the mvc....of course they will finish last in mvc.
Then you take a Valpo team that owned the HL for 5 years and move them to the mvc.....I don't expect them to have the same difficulties as Loyola.
Or at least not for as long. We really need to start seeing some real results again this season or it is definitely time to question the direction and leadership of this program.
I don't care if we are the 3rd best 6th best or 10th best. I just want to be healthy and playing our best basketball the last month of the season. If we can do that I will be happy.
Quote from: 4throwfan on September 11, 2019, 03:42:43 PM
I disagree with your approach. VU was better than Loyola when Loyola joined the MVC. In Loyola's final 6 years in the HL, VU's win-loss record against Loyola was 7-5. The record was 6-2 over the final 4 years. So, had VU joined the MVC at the same time, VU should have expected a better record. Since that time, Creighton and WSU have left. Over the VU's final 10 years in the HL, VU was 7-1 (excluding record against Loyola) against the MVC. If Loyola's time in the HL is included, then VU's record was 14-6 against MVC teams.
VU's record against the MVC, coupled with the departure of Creighton and WSU tell me that VU should have expected a better win-loss percentage in its first year. If each year should produce an incrementally better win-loss record, then in year 3, the reasonable expectation, as measured by history, should be better than .500.
I don't think we should be setting our expectations based on Loyola's performance at the time of its entry.
I agree that VU should / could have been better than Loyola in its first two years in the MVC. I also don't want to make this only about a VU / Loyola comparison. That said, I'm trying to be realistic about where this current team with the current coach will be this year and next year given the level of competition. 10-8 is good for third place in the conference in many years, and third place in conference would be a stretch goal this year.
If the team is less than 8-10, it would be disappointing. As a fan, I'd be happy to be surprised with a 12-6 record this year, but I don't see it happening. That means 8-10, 9-9, 10-8 or 11-7 are successful outcomes. They show improvement, and potential for the future.
Below .500 is an improvement\sign of success... Tougher conference or not that is a bad sign that members of our fanbase have allowed their expectations to drop to such a degree.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on September 14, 2019, 11:04:28 PM
Below .500 is an improvement\sign of success... Tougher conference or not that is a bad sign that members of our fanbase have allowed their expectations to drop to such a degree.
After what I saw on the Canada trip, less than .500 in the MVC would be a disappointment. I understand that winning games and/or advancing to the NCAA tourney will be tougher in the MVC, but I feel like the overall quality of the team has fallen off from the teams of 2012 to 2017. Possibly expected, since those teams had NBA players and I don't see any of those on this year's team.
Quote from: EddieCabot on September 16, 2019, 09:54:23 AMsince those teams had NBA players and I don't see any of those on this year's team.
Fair enough. And no, I am not predicting that Ben Krikke will end up in the NBA, but he is an interesting talent. He is listed at 6'9" 220#. Alec was 6'8" 225# as a freshman and Rowdy was 6'6" 185# as a freshman! Obviously he has the size and has shown some serious skills playing for Canada. He and Donovan are two freshman that should be legit contributors this season.
Quote from: vu72 on September 16, 2019, 10:49:14 AMQuote from: EddieCabot on September 16, 2019, 09:54:23 AMsince those teams had NBA players and I don't see any of those on this year's team.
Fair enough. And no, I am not predicting that Ben Krikke will end up in the NBA, but he is an interesting talent. He is listed at 6'9" 220#. Alec was 6'8" 225# as a freshman and Rowdy was 6'6" 185# as a freshman! Obviously he has the size and has shown some serious skills playing for Canada. He and Donovan are two freshman that should be legit contributors this season.
We could have an NBA talent and not know it. I don't think even after their freshman year anyone would be able to say with any confidence that Alec or Rowdy were NBA caliber players. And many also thought that Parker Hazen was an instant star and destined to follow in Alec's footsteps. Hopefully we will be pleasantly surprised. All I know is we have some interesting players with talent on this team and hopefully we have a strong season that will be the building blocks to get us back to being a yearly contender. If a true star emerges from the bunch, all the better.
https://twitter.com/aspireacademyky/status/1173015103081525249?s=21
QuoteWhat does success look like for next year?
I hope we now have a good idea of what success looks like. :)
Even if we had lost last night, the team that represented Valpo on the court yesterday in terms of attitude, scrappiness, hitting the boards, movement on offense, and tight D, is what I will accept for the entire season and rate that a success.
But one thing they have to work on — keeping their mouths shut. The MVC is not playground basketball, and directing emotions right at opponents in their faces or the refs can undo some good work. I'm thinking primarily of Mileek and Sackey. But I do have laugh a bit about Sackey. He is such a physical pest out there on defense, that just his presence alone can be frustrating to ball handlers. But he is also constantly jabbering all the time ;D. That to me is okay. It's the dead ball dustups that worry me. It's a small thing, but that kind of stuff could cost us a game here or there.
And keep in mind. The 1st 6 minutes of the game is as bad as any team anywhere can possibly play. The last 4 minutes was not a lot better. Lots of 2-3 minute stretches during the game we looked bad as well, running around the court like chickens with their heads cut off. I would say for about 18 minutes of the Toledo game we were absolutely dominant.
What does success look like this year? Slowly cutting down on mental mistakes all season long so that we are playing our best basketball to end the season and playing 35+ minutes of the best basketball this team is capable of playing. Still LOTS of mental mistakes in the Toledo game so plenty to work on.
Just as long as we're done with the 5 6 7 8 minute stretches of looking terrible on offense I'll consider that a significant improvement.
Quote from: VULB#62 on November 06, 2019, 09:18:12 AMBut I do have laugh a bit about Sackey. He is such a physical pest out there on defense, that just his presence alone can be frustrating to ball handlers.
My favorite quote from the Toledo board was this pithy summation:
Got tired of seeing Knapke get stripped by that little guy.
I would finally like to put this question to rest:
"So barring a miracle run in St Louis this year is pretty much done. And we%u2019ll have several months to dissect this season, so I%u2019ll leave that until tomorrow.
So here%u2019s my question:
What would need to happen for you to consider the 2019-2020 season a success? What needs to happen for you to be ok with a Lottich extension?
And I ask because I honestly don%u2019t know what I think yet. A top half finish? Top 3? Very unlikely we go from back to back Thursday nights to a Sunday appearance. What has to happen 12 months from now for you to say, %u201CI support the direction of this program.%u201D
-Playing in the MVC championship game tells me that the 2019-2020 season was a success. Also a wise man has been asking us fans this question for awhile "Is this team good?" I think we can finally answer that question now as well. Looking forward to seeing how this run translates into success for next season.
Quote from: PlumStreetBum on February 27, 2019, 11:26:28 PMSuccess is 12 wins, or a Lottich firing. I'll be happy with one of those. His guys didn't play with any effort tonight, and that was the last thing we had to hang our hats on.
Well, we won 12 games against Valley opponents, and we had a helluva run at the end. And most importantly, the team gave incredible effort, especially compared to last year.
Glad to be wrong about Lottich's program. So glad.
What an incredible run we had. This program has made a giant step going forward in the past 5 days. I believe in Matt Lottich. He has shown the potential to be an elite coach. If we retain our core players JFL, krickee, clay, sackey, and McMillan I believe we should be contenders for league champions. Sackey could be a beast if he improves his shooting. If we could get a talented post player...we will be at the top of this league. Lottich turned a huge corner this weekend.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
Success for this year looks like... Well... It looks a lot like this... Fantastic job by Matt and the team in St Louis! The future is bright and I think we have post players that will work in this league in Mileek Clay Krikke and Ognacevic! Adding a shooter like Barrett and a scorer like Edwards are great reasons for excited! Go Valpo! I BELIEVE!
Quote from: justducky on March 10, 2019, 06:54:37 PM
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on March 10, 2019, 06:29:08 PMWhat else am I to conclude but that we intend to be a barnacle on the good ship MVC
Great idea! The Valparaiso Barnacles--- :thewave: It is accurate, politically correct and unique in the entire world of sports. What a recruiting pitch----Son---I want you to come to VU and be a Barnacle. :thumbsup: Will the board of directors have to approve our mascot name change?
Fortunately our leaky dingy from last spring was dry-docked and refitted then returned to the water looking more like the Queen Mary than the SS Minnow. After our 2019-2020 5 month test run I am expecting much smoother sailing ahead.
Assuming the major puzzle pieces stay in tact - which I think they will - success for the 20/21 season definitely means
1. We are top 2 in the league. Maybe top 3-4 at worst depending on the parity and how things shake out.
2. Defend our home court. Less than 3 losses on the season at home. 1 or less loss at home in conference.
3. Advance to the mvc championship game and play well. Ideally get an NCAA birth.
Quote from: GoldenCrusader87 on March 09, 2020, 12:57:25 PM
Assuming the major puzzle pieces stay in tact - which I think they will - success for the 20/21 season definitely means
1. We are top 2 in the league. Maybe top 3-4 at worst depending on the parity and how things shake out.
2. Defend our home court. Less than 3 losses on the season at home. 1 or less loss at home in conference.
3. Advance to the mvc championship game and play well. Ideally get an NCAA birth.
I basically agree with Golden's benchmarks.
Looking purely at trajectory, then I think that 11-7 seems realistic (6 wins first year, 7 following year, 9 wins this year, then 2 more wins results in 11-7). Based on this past year's standings, that would put VU tied for third place. Since we were 10th place first year, 9th last year, and tied for 6th this year, moving to tied for 3rd or 4th place, again, seems realistic.
However, I would add one more benchmark, which is dramatically harder to measure. I think that culture was significantly better this year. I'm hoping that culture continues to improve. A couple of signs of that improvement this year is how much more enjoyable games were to watch, and how much more the fans on this board have embraced the team throughout the course of the year, even after losses. For the most part, we complained about the coach, but not the players. I don't remember anyone complaining about negative attitudes like we've done in the past couple of years.
So, agreed with all three of Golden's points, but add a fourth for culture with simply an 'up' arrow.