Second game of the year and it's not cancelled ::) This marks the first time playing a horizon league team since joining the MVC. Time to see what this team can do.
I don't see Valpo winning this one unfortunately. Much better coach at UIC. Especially on the defensive end.
Vegas has valpo -1. Did uic get good since we left?
How can game #2 feel like a must-win game? But it kinda does, at least to me.
Paul
Quote from: tiny707 on December 01, 2020, 12:10:32 PM
I don't see Valpo winning this one unfortunately. Much better coach at UIC. Especially on the defensive end.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Well that didn't take long...just 2 games in and Matt L is not as good of a coach as our competition's. Wow!
Our offense is an absolute :censored: show. When the UIC announcers say we look organized it's bad.
We chug threes. NO plan.
Between potential COVID cancellations and this offense, I'm confident we don't win ten games this year.
Quote from: vu72 on December 01, 2020, 04:14:45 PM
Quote from: tiny707 on December 01, 2020, 12:10:32 PM
I don't see Valpo winning this one unfortunately. Much better coach at UIC. Especially on the defensive end.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Down 9 at half. We sure aren't impressing anyone at this point.
Agree.
Robinson looks lackadaisical and should be benched.
Dying by the 3, when we should be living by the drive...UIC can't transition from perimeter to paint defense fast enough, but we pitched tents and campfires at the arc again and again.
Has anybody else noticed we seemingly don't run any plays? We just sloppily pass it around the three point line until there are 6 seconds left on the shot clock and then try to score one on one. The only hope we ever have is when we get in transition. It's been like this for 4 years now. How has Lottich not adjusted?
Pretty sad performance so far. O for the half from 3. Won't win many if we continue to shoot like that. Our offense seems to confuse our guys more than theirs.
Vok22 you have perfectly described our offense. And yes it has been the same for 4 years except Peters last season.
The crazy thing is we all see it but it never changes.
Not sure if it's Lottich needing to adjust it, or just start benching for poor play. I mean we would have the whole team benched, in the long run, but we're not in a league where street ball/ISO is the way. That was the Horizon League. The MVC is slower, more set plays. How has the coaching staff not been able to get these guys to understand that?
There are no two Valpo players Ive hated watching play as much as Sackey and Maleek. Totally out of control at all times. Basement level bball IQs. Bench them for anyone else. I dont care whom at this point.
Sackey I'll agree with. Mileek may not be getting his number retired but he's one of the most improved players I've seen in many years.
I still cant stand watching him, despite the improvement. Every time he touches the ball I cant help but cringe.
Quote from: bbtds on December 01, 2020, 06:38:47 PM
Quote from: vu72 on December 01, 2020, 04:14:45 PM
Quote from: tiny707 on December 01, 2020, 12:10:32 PM
I don't see Valpo winning this one unfortunately. Much better coach at UIC. Especially on the defensive end.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Down 9 at half. We sure aren't impressing anyone at this point.
Still down by 9, 10 minutes to go. If Valpo doesn't have a huge run then we lose this game. It would be a miracle now if we do pull this game out for a win.
We definitely don't have a clutch or go to scorer. A lot of timid shooters. Give the shooters a greenlight.
Now down 13 with 7 minutes to go. What do we do? Mileek fumbles the ball away and then we commit an offensive foul. Horrible, just horrible!
Could it get any worse?
We may not beat Judson if we keep playing like we have tonight.
Yes. It will get really worse against Purdue.
If Bovada lists a spread for the Purdue game I'm taking Purdue regardless.
Purdue is going to treat us like dessert. They will enjoy dominating us.
Who comes out of the starting 5? Sackey, Edwards, or McMillan?
All three.
Only bright spot was Conner Barrett hustle tonight. Ziggy should not be playing over this kid.
Just embarrassing....
At least we were consistent tonight. Consistently couldn't shoot the 3. Consistently couldn't defend the 3. Oh, and the rest of the things we tried to do pretty much didn't work either. Amazed we scored 50.
Valpo Looses. 66-50
Quote from: tiny707 on December 01, 2020, 12:10:32 PM
I don't see Valpo winning this one unfortunately. Much better coach at UIC. Especially on the defensive end.
I want to know where I can purchase the crystal ball you are gazing into.
https://giphy.com/gifs/8xCX1B5SbV4t2/html5
https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohA2IR1gGQKmxnQ0o/giphy.gif
We were just blown out by a bottom feeding team from the conference we left with a first year head coach. Don't talk to me about JFL leaving. Don't talk to me about the number of practices we didn't have before the season. Don't talk to me about potential. This program is about to be 4 for 4 in finishing in the bottom 4 of the conference.
Seriously. Outside of four days this past March, somebody explain to me why I should be excited ( and more importantly, pay money to watch this team once able) to see Matt Lottich's program going forward.
For those that want to bemoan a loss, this is a good one for such a thing. That was just ugly, and we did look really bad. Nick is not playing like a Senior. You don't make a bone-headed play, and then immediately foul the person that stole it from you. That is a FR mistake.
I know that this will never change in college basketball, but it annoys the heck out of me to see constant lackadaisical and no-look passes that are lobbed lightly to a teammate. Do you think that the defender is just going to stand still and wait for your guy to catch it? Throw it like a man, and look at the dude that you are passing it to, especially when on the perimeter. That is not hard, regardless of your skill level.
I am going to forget that this game happened, and hope that our season turns out better. A loss to UIC is not as bad as it would have been a few years ago, but they were not overly impressive, to the tune of being 16 points better.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Jrl4FlTaymFFbNiwU5/giphy.webp)
To sum it up we have no penetrators to free up the outside or 3 point shooters to open up penetration or defenders to generate TO's. Other than that our half court defense is slow, our full court defense is ineffective and in Valley play there will be few opportunities to play McMillan and Krikke simultaneously. I have yet to start worrying about our post play because I've yet to see it attempted. I am also not worried about rarely getting to the foul line because we can't seem to hit any of them even if we do get a call. I will make no comments on boxing out because UIC didn't miss enough shots for me to determine our true level of competence or incompetence. Seems like I'm forgetting 7 or 8 other things that need some work but they will come to me! ;)
Our middle school level half court offense with no three point threat is going to make it another long season.
Has the "we are a young team" excuse been said yet?
I'd give Barrett, Jacob and Goodnews a ton of playing time to build for the future.
I was thinking Edwards was going to be a slasher and take it to the rim and not a player who settles and heaves threes.
Also, when Robinson gets the ball I've never seen a player do so many fake steps and pivots. He gets the ball and goes thru this 5'sec fake step and pivot routine.
Most disappointing offensive coach named Matt in the greater Chicagoland area: Nagy or Lottich?
They only had Purdue by 22 against Oakland because Purdue was without a guy. Purdue bench>Oakland starters. That's when a rout happens. Easy money there. I bet the line will be around -18 for Purdue vs Valpo
Valpo hadn't lost to UIC since 2008. What changed? Perhaps the MVC wasn't greener pastures. At least in the Horizon I could enjoy 20-some wins a year and blowing out Chicago teams.
"Valpo hadn't lost to UIC since 2008. What changed?"
The coach for both teams.
I definitely think we should have remained in the Horizon League. We aren't recruiting well enough to compete in the MVC. In fact, we arent recruiting well enough to compete, period, at this point.
Aside from our homerun recruiting snag in Javon a few years back, its been a disaster. Our roster is filled with under-recruited guys found well off the general recruiting "map" and cast-offs from other programs.
But can you really blame recruits for not choosing Valpo? Our athletics facilities are beyond horrible; they're a sincere embarassment and do significant damage to the Valpo "brand." Nothwest Indiana is not a geographical destination to anyone. The campus life doesnt have widespread appeal, and particularly not for young male atheletes. Our academics alone arent stellar enough to attract recruits. Weve lost the tradition and name recognition the Drews brought. And we arent winning games any more, finishing at the bottom of our conference.
Im afraid we're entering a down stretch the likes of which Valpo basketball hasnt experienced in my lifetime. There could be some seriously dark days ahead.
Truly hope I'm proven wrong.
We were better off in the HL? Come on, man. That's like a company saying, 'we are doing well at $100m, and have a good opportunity for $200m, but that would require too much effort.' I would much rather be a middle-of-the-road athletic program in the MVC, with the potential for multiple bids in multiple sports, versus a top dog in 1 sport in the HL, but having to win the championship in each sport to taste the NCAA tourney. Horrible athletic facilities? There are many programs around the country, that have more success, and facilities that are less impressive. Just go to the historic A-10 programs, and check out their crap gyms.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 02, 2020, 01:23:59 AM
I definitely think we should have remained in the Horizon League. We aren't recruiting well enough to compete in the MVC. In fact, we arent recruiting well enough to compete, period, at this point.
Aside from our homerun recruiting snag in Javon a few years back, its been a disaster. Our roster is filled with under-recruited guys found well off the general recruiting "map" and cast-offs from other programs.
But can you really blame recruits for not choosing Valpo? Our athletics facilities are beyond horrible; they're a sincere embarassment and do significant damage to the Valpo "brand." Nothwest Indiana is not a geographical destination to anyone. The campus life doesnt have widespread appeal, and particularly not for young male atheletes. Our academics alone arent stellar enough to attract recruits. Weve lost the tradition and name recognition the Drews brought. And we arent winning games any more, finishing at the bottom of our conference.
Im afraid we're entering a down stretch the likes of which Valpo basketball hasnt experienced in my lifetime. There could be some seriously dark days ahead.
Truly hope I'm proven wrong.
I know I get way down after a loss like last night's horrible display but you are
WAY over reacting. It was a bad game but it was mostly bad due to poor shooting. Have you even looked at the stats? Valpo went 1 for 14 from three. UIC went 9 for 26 from three. That is a difference of 24 points. We lost by 14 points. UIC was hot and Valpo was not. That stat can change significantly in future games. The program is not lost. We aren't headed to some really dark days due to this one game. It's always interesting to watch new posters get so way down over one game. It happens every year and then we have better games and their whole perspective on the program seems to change.
We were without a reasonable doubt far better off in the Horizon League. I dont agree with your analogy at all. Ideally the company, in this case Valpo, would have had the self-awareness to say to itself, "we are doing well at $100m, and could attempt to extend ourselves to $200m at this juncture, but ultimately we lack the general preparation, infastructure, and personnel for a succesful transition. We would be wise to improve in said areas before making such a serious commitment." Now, hindsight is of course 20-20, and truthfully I dont besmirch Valpo having made the move to the MVC, but its becoming more and more apparent we bit off more than we could chew. We have not been able to seriously compete in the conference, and the losing hurts our program, perhaps more than any other factor.
We arent middle of the road, either. We're much closer to bottom of the barrel. We've finished in the bottom half of the regular season standings each year we've been in the MVC -- with both a last place and second to last place finish.
The MVC no longer has credible potential to recieve two bids, since the departures of Wichita State and Creighton. Suggesting otherwise is either misguided or disingenuous.
You know what? I sort of gave you the benefit of the doubt regarding the A-10 gyms, and out of curiousity checked them out. Each and every one of them. But there isnt a single one I wouldnt take over the ARC. All of the A-10 gyms are well-lit and more modern than ours. Youre wearing rose-colored glasses. And just because someone else might have a crap gym that doesnt mean we dont have one, too. I dont want a crap gym.
As for the idea our problems can be written off to one night of bad shooting, I think thats optimistic, too. Compared to other teams last season, we were a middle of the pack shooting group. But two of our most efficient shooters in Fazekas and Kiser are now gone. Furthemore, we lost our best scorer to transfer.
The program may not be "lost," but its definitely "misplaced" for the time being. And it isnt just this one game which should make fans think we're potentially headed for dark days, but all of the things mentioned in my last post. I may be a "new poster," but I'm not new to this team, by any means. Things don't look good.
Fans are right to be concerned about this program.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 02, 2020, 01:23:59 AMBut can you really blame recruits for not choosing Valpo? Our athletics facilities are beyond horrible; they're a sincere embarassment and do significant damage to the Valpo "brand." Northwest Indiana is not a geographical destination to anyone. The campus life doesnt have widespread appeal, and particularly not for young male athletes. Our academics alone aren't stellar enough to attract recruits. We've lost the tradition and name recognition the Drews brought. And we aren't winning games any more, finishing at the bottom of our conference.
Im afraid we're entering a down stretch the likes of which Valpo basketball hasn't experienced in my lifetime. There could be some seriously dark days ahead.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 02, 2020, 03:37:13 AMThe program may not be "lost," but its definitely "misplaced" for the time being. And it isn't just this one game which should make fans think we're potentially headed for dark days, but all of the things mentioned in my last post. I may be a "new poster," but I'm not new to this team, by any means. Things don't look good.
Fans are right to be concerned about this program.
You go from saying Valpo is entering "a down stretch the likes of which Valpo basketball hasn't experienced in my lifetime" to "Fans are right to be concerned about this program." That in itself is quite a change from last night's "the sky is falling" post.
What are you talking about? Yes... fans are right to be concerned... because Valpo may be entering a down stretch the likes of which Valpo bball hasnt experienced in my lifetime, anyway. Please explain how that is inconsistent?
Even if the MVC was a two bid league, Valpo is further from either bid than they were with the one bid in the Horizon. Furthermore, Valpo WAS close to an auto-bid back in the Horizon and probably would have gotten a bid if the new NET formula was used.
Years 1-3 of the MVC Valpo had above .500 out of conference records, but finished bottom of the MVC each year. The OOC record is starting to tank this year. Now that Valpo isn't close to a tournament bid, they can't really sell recruits on the ability to play in the tournament. They're selling a .500 team that finishes bottom third of their league. Maybe some recruits would rather play vs better competition on a bottom teir MVC team vs winning a ton of games in the Horizon League... but we're definitely not seeing the star recruits of the former.
I'm of the belief that you always try to improve yourself when you have the chance. I was a big advocate of Valpo joining the MVC. However, I don't fault people who are questioning it.
-Valpo joined the HL without major upgrades, and must have felt they could do the same in joining the MVC. Not only is the ARC getting older and older, we are now judged by our peers who have shiny newer/upgraded arenas.
-im still curious to see how much money we lost when leaving the HL and joining the MVC. The other MVC programs are still collecting from WSU and Creighton NCAA wins (i believe paid out over 7 years). Easier to attract better coaches and recruit further with that money.
-Valpo obviously is having financial troubles. I dont know how likely it is to see upgrades in the near future to these areas. At best its status quo and at worst we will see a decrease.
-College basketball in general is changing. Less fans are going to games all over, which has a much bigger $$ impact the smaller you go (who have less/no TV money). Less fans means decreases in ticket revenue, merch and concession revenue, and overall fandom/Gameday atmosphere. All games are streamed on tv/online now and its far easier and cheaper for people to chose that option.
-Since all games are streamed anymore, there is not a significant, if any, advantage of being shown on regional fox or CBS networks (mvc) vs being streamed on espn3. If you want to watch the games you'll be able to, but the casual fan is not likely to be tuning in.
-major conferences keep getting bigger/expanding their conference schedule, leaving less games/opportunities/SOS/$$ games to the rest of D1 leagues. And we all know what that means when it comes to NCAAT.
-and the last but biggest, is the continued trend for grad transfers and now just transferring in general (getting a one time waiver). In its current landscape, I dont believe we would have retained AlecPeters his entire collegiate career and he just graduated. So when we do get a JFL, its harder (impossible?) than ever to keep them and achieve success. The MVC is at least in the middle where we can do the same to leagues below us, but can also be a landing spot for people looking for a bigger role or struggled initially in conferences above us.
But having said that, success can still be achieved in the MVC and we know what success in the MVC can bring. We were close last year. We have to show we can invest and adapt to the current atmosphere, and I believe that is where we have fallen short for the time being.
Fair to say that when in the HL we were recruiting MVC players and now that we are in the MVC we are recruiting HL players?
Fact is that we used to beat Loyola all the time. Fact is that we used to beat UIC all the time.
It's frustrating but early in the season. And a very odd season. Things can and probably will get better this season and will finish it off with a 4 game run.
We couldn't shoot.... It happens... Settle Down....
3 or 4 games from now we probably have a game where we shoot 45% from 3 and 55% from the floor and everyone will overreact that we are gonna win the MVC if we play like that, which of course we WON'T.. haha
We were cold from the floor and played lackluster defense because that is what people do early in the season when nothing is going right on the offensive end.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 02, 2020, 05:31:50 AM
What are you talking about? Yes... fans are right to be concerned... because Valpo may be entering a down stretch the likes of which Valpo bball hasnt experienced in my lifetime, anyway. Please explain how that is inconsistent?
One is concern, one is an over reaction that the program is going downhill for a stretch of many seasons. I didn't think in anyway that this season was over and done after the UIC loss. It was a horrible display but I'm sure we have the talent to snap back this season. We have gone through this almost every season (this is like my 13th or 14th season on this board) when some newcomer to the board over reacts to a loss. Who was it last season? Come on. Come out and admit your panic from last season.
I'll freely admit to being one of the biggest over reactors within game threads. And usually I wake up the next day and find some optimism. And let's be honest, the season is already a wash in many ways. We have no idea how many games will be played and no one is losing a year of eligibility. In theory, this is a year for us to ignore the W/L record and focus on the development of what is a very young team. But it's not hard to see, especially this year, how the last few seasons have lead us to skew more toward frustration and defeatism than the usual optimism of the Drew(s) years.
For example, I see Clay and Krikke as stars in the making who are very close to breaking out in a big way. Then I wonder where they'll finish their careers. It's a cycle we're caught in, and something has to give. I've put this in visual form since I have nothing better to do today.
(https://i.imgur.com/sXmDb7e.jpg)
The lack of offensive structure is concerning. They could get away with it because Javon Freeman-Liberty was so good at penetrating and finding open shooters, but this team has nothing on offense. When is the last time Lottich called a set play with a clear end goal? I'm not sure this team shoots well enough to rely on constant three-point attempts. Frustrating!
Just looks at the season stats and, are you ready for this? WE SUCK!
Our starting backcourt have taken a COMBINED, ZERO FREE THROWS!
Our uber athletic Mr. Edwards is 1 for 10 from the 3. The team is shooting 24% from the 3 and that seems like our total offense. Even Sigurd can't buy one.
Worse yet is our free throw shooting. Now at 54% through two games.
We're being out rebounded by 7 per game.
Make no mistake, UIC is a really good team. We, are not.
Hopefully the next few social media posts by our guys will be them hitting numerous consecutive three points/free throws instead of dunks.
Bbtds, I'm sure you're a nice, intelligent guy, being a Valpo grad and all. However, I hate your take on this bball team, and your take on my take.
Your assertion makes no sense. None. You have arbitrarily quantified my statements associated concern levels, deciding that the two differ. Im telling you they dont. Fans are right to be concerned... because Valpo may be entering a major down stretch. These two ideas are completely compatible and consistent with one another.
Again, it is not just this UIC loss that has me thinking so pessimistically about our team's future. Its our horrible athletics facilities, overall performance in the MVC since we joined, the loss of tradition and notoriety of the Drews, etc.
What makes you sure we have the talent to "snap back?" I dont believe outside observers would characterize our current roster as "talented" in very many relevant contexts.
And your self-reverance for your lengthy posting history here is a bit much. The logic you're espousing would suggest that if I had happened to make my way to this forum 13 or 14 years ago, as you had, then my opinion about the current state of the program would be more valid somehow. I was watching the team back then; why would it matter if I had a lengthy posting history or not -- as if having one magically bestows some type of wisdom...
Interesting comment from Donovan's Dad. And some truth. We may need more guys to play supporting roles in an offense rather than whatever that was on Tuesday night. Most of the offense came from individual performances rather than the flow of an offense.
The best "Chief" we have is Clay obviously. Not everything needs to run through him but we need to more guys playing supporting roles rather than making plays by themselves.
UIC is better than people think but I'd argue we have more talent but we didn't play as team!! Whatever that was was awful.
How much did this team get to practice in the offseason and between the Vandy game. Because it literally looked they didn't practice and had no cohesion.
https://twitter.com/dexterclay1977/status/1334143789695447042?s=21
We haven't had shooters on the roster for a long time now
IU shoots 24% and gets beat by 22. Does that tell you anything? Yes, a bad game. Relax. There is a lot of season left. We badly need a point guard who can also score. Maybe one will evolve. Other than Krikke no one has stepped up to fill the void of losing your 2 top point producers from last year. No doubt...a work in progress.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 02, 2020, 01:54:51 PM
Bbtds, I'm sure you're a nice, intelligent guy, being a Valpo grad and all. However, I hate your take on this bball team, and your take on my take.
Your assertion makes no sense. None. You have arbitrarily quantified my statements associated concern levels, deciding that the two differ. Im telling you they dont. Fans are right to be concerned... because Valpo may be entering a major down stretch. These two ideas are completely compatible and consistent with one another.
Again, it is not just this UIC loss that has me thinking so pessimistically about our team's future. Its our horrible athletics facilities, overall performance in the MVC since we joined, the loss of tradition and notoriety of the Drews, etc.
What makes you sure we have the talent to "snap back?" I dont believe outside observers would characterize our current roster as "talented" in very many relevant contexts.
And your self-reverance for your lengthy posting history here is a bit much. The logic you're espousing would suggest that if I had happened to make my way to this forum 13 or 14 years ago, as you had, then my opinion about the current state of the program would be more valid somehow. I was watching the team back then; why would it matter if I had a lengthy posting history or not -- as if having one magically bestows some type of wisdom...
All I can say is you will see. This program is not as bad as you make it out to be.
My earlier point on multiple bids, was specific to the overall athletic program while in the MVC, versus what was possible in the HL. Men's Basketball (not as much recently), Women's Basketball, Volleyball, Baseball, and Software, often receive multiple bids. While Basketball is the breadwinner for Valpo, we didn't make the move solely for the sport. If you want to compete with schools like IPFW, IUPUI, and Robert Morris, more power to you. If you want to work at a company that is content at $100m, more power to you. I have more ambition than such a thing, and I know that a lot of other former Valpo athletes would say the exact same thing, that we are even more proud to be able to say that our school competes in the MVC, versus the Mid-Con or HL.
I totally agree Valpotx but I'm getting restless and impatient... When are we going to win something--anything--that shows that we belong with our new institutional peers? We're in year four now and it doesn't feel like we're any better than we were in year one and that goes for a lot of programs, not just men's basketball. We've seen growth in women's basketball and volleyball had a pretty good year a year or two ago but aside from that what do we have to show the MVC that they made the right choice taking us besides that nice run in St Louis? I'm glad we're here in the MVC but I am getting a little bit tired of seeing us not compete terribly well against this new league.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 02, 2020, 01:54:51 PMBbtds, I'm sure you're a nice, intelligent guy, being a Valpo grad and all.
I wouldn't jump to any rash conclusions until you've read all 5957 of his previous posts. :)
Quote from: oklahomamick on December 02, 2020, 03:10:16 PM
We haven't had shooters on the roster for a long time now
Our team 3 point shooting wasn't bad last year compared to the year before but we were still low when compared to our Valley competition and some of our Peters and Broekhoff teams. Specifically Fazekas shot 49.5%, Gordon 42%, Kiser 36.6% and 2 of those 3 have graduated.
As the assigned roles for each team member sort out I see nothing in the 3 point shooting forms for Edwards (1 of 10), Clay (2 of 10) and Robinson that should automatically hold them under 30% and Krikke, McMillan and Sackey should return to their 32-to 34% 2019-20 ranges. Despite starting 1-8 I don't think Im sticking my neck out too far by expecting Lorange to finish near 40% for the season. Even with those players meeting my shooting expectations our dribble penetration limitations may hamstring our results. Matt has considerable work to do to get this figured out.
Absolutely moving to the MVC was the right move. It's certainly a huge jump in competition, but the Horizon League was limited in what it could do for VU. With the MVC, television money is much better and the school gets more exposure. Exposure is especially significant given the decline in enrollment at VU.
The increased exposure isn't going to matter much if we don't figure it out soon though...
Aside from the brief good run at arch madness last year, it has been hard being a valpo fan in the Lottich era. It always comes back to "trust the process" and "work in progress". It is very tiring and frustrating.
While the jump in competition from the Horizon to Valley has been significant, I do wonder about some of the recruiting decisions. Lots of reliance on transfers...
We're stuck relying on transfers because we struggle to recruit talented enough kids out of high school. We're then left digging through the transfer scrap heap, searching for players who showed promise in high school but have failed to realize it at the collegiate level. I believe this has added to our roster discordance; the parts just dont seem to fit. Or maybe it simply feels that way because we seem so bad right now.
Friday is going to be brutal.
Quote from: AlaskaCrusader19 on December 02, 2020, 08:50:53 PM
While the jump in competition from the Horizon to Valley has been significant, I do wonder about some of the recruiting decisions. Lots of reliance on transfers...
The Valley is certainly a step up but the best AP and Broekhoff teams could compete and be very successful in the Valley.
Particularly Rowdy's senior year and AP's JR and SR (if the team had better luck with injuries that year and Jubril didn't get suspended). Mind you AP's senior year was Lottich's first year as head coach and gifted/coached by Bryce. It was actually a good start to the season that fizzled out due to health and an extremely awful HL tourney 1st game bounce out.
I do wonder if Lottich is the guy. He can recruit and is an A+ character person but does he have the coaching chops. In the Drew Era we didn't always have the best talent (certainly had some years of strong talent) but they were always well coached teams and guys new their roles.
I hate to be so down this early in the season and us complaining literally won't change anything unless you have a Massive check and are ready to put your mouth is. Lottich isn't going anywhere.
Reason to remain positive about a season turnaround at some point:
-lack of practice time with this team due to previous covid restrictions in the offseason hampered this young teams growth. Ideally with time, practice and more games they hopefully get better.
-on paper a decent roster with some players with high upside
Reason to remain pessimistic:
-read the forum thread. Not going to be redundant at this point.
Wow, the Northern Iowa fans should all be jumping off a cliff based on our reactions and their 0-3 start, after being picked to win the league and be an at-large candidate.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 02, 2020, 09:13:10 PMWe're stuck relying on transfers because we struggle to recruit talented enough kids out of high school. We're then left digging through the transfer scrap heap, searching for players who showed promise in high school but have failed to realize it at the collegiate level. I believe this has added to our roster discordance; the parts just dont seem to fit. Or maybe it simply feels that way because we seem so bad right now.
Really not sure where this take is coming from. What transfers have we "relied on"? Sure, some of them have been solid contributors, Shane Hammink, Ryan Fazekas, Bakari Evelyn, and maybe Marcus Golder, but most if not all of our "relied on" talent have been recruited from high school. I expect both the 2019 and 2020 classes to produce several major contributors.
Valpo's best players by class
2024: Sheldon Edwards (too early to tell, but he is in starting lineup for a reason)
2023: Donovan Clay
2022: Javon Freeman-Liberty (originally), Daniel Sackey
2021: Mileek McMillan
2020: Ryan Fazekas (transfer)
2019: Derrik Smits
2018: Tevonn Walker
2017: Alec Peters
2016: Vashil Fernandez/Keith Carter (transfer) - there's a debate here depending on what you're looking for
2015: NA
2014: Lavonte Dority (transfer)
2013: Ryan Broekhoff
2012: Brandon Wood (transfer, originally)
2011: Cory Johnson (transfer)
2010: Brandon McPherson
2009: Urule Igbavboa/Jake Diebler
2008: Shawn Huff
So that's five transfers at best that have been the best player in their class in the last 17 years, and most of them under Homer/Bryce. Yes, Lottich stocked team full of transfers when he first took over, but he has clearly moved away from that model.
Transfers on the roster by year
2020-21: 4
2019-20: 4
2018-19: 6
2017-18: 4
2016-17: 4
2015-16: 5
2014-15: 6
2013-14: 7
2012-13: 7
2011-12: 4
2010-11: 2
2009-10: 3
2008-09: 1 (2 if you count Beas Hamga)
2007-08: 1
We may simply define what it means for a team to "rely" on a player differently. To me, a team comes to "rely" on a player when they've become a consistent rotation piece. We may have to agree to disagree because of this.
However, I don't feel as though you're giving some of Valpo's recent transfers enough credit in terms of the role they've played in determining their teams' success, or lackthereof.
Fazekas, when healthy, was perhaps Valpo's second best player both last season and the season prior to that.
Marcus Golder and Bakari Evelyn were both top five in scoring and minutes played from 2017 through 2019.
For 2017-18, Valpo planned to "rely" most heavily on transfer Joe Burton before he flunked out of school.
Hammink was unquestionably the Crusaders second best player during 2016-17.
Keith Carter was the second best player in 2015-2016. I recall too well how that team flamed out in the NIT final after Carter went down with an injury. Darien Walker was a starter that season and was top five in scoring.
The previous season Darion Walker was our second leading scorer.
Then, the season prior to that Lavonte Dority was the best player, leading the way in terms of minutes played, points, assists, etc.
I'm not going to reach back any further into the annals of Valpo bball history because I dont think doing so would be useful. Im not very interested in what happened 15 years ago one way or the other.
So we may have to leave it at that, but I dont think its entirely reasonable to dismiss an individual as not being "relied" upon by his team unless he's its best player -- a position you seem to have taken.
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Lottich has clearly moved away from that model? Again, with that "model" being the reliance upon transfers? I don't think I'm understanding this correctly.
Lottich took over for 2016-17, when he had four transfers on the roster. He has not had less than four transfers on the roster in any of the subsequent seasons...
As an observation, although posters here have different opinions, we should all be thankful that the debates on this forum tend to be respectful. The fact that individuals are doing this by presenting data and facts is commendable.
The other observation is that transfers have an outsized impact for mid-majors such as VU. The Power 5 schools always have a ton of talent - the second string at Purdue or another Big 10 program would start (or surely get more minutes) if they transferred to the MVC; the first string at a school like Valpo might or might not start for the Big 10 and probably do not get more minutes, at least right away. Naturally the details of this depend on the individual player and the school, yet I'm speaking in broad terms. For example, Brandon Wood averaged 11 minutes at SIU, 31 minutes over two years at VU, then got 27 minutes at MSU. David Skara averaged 19 minutes over two years at VU, then 19 and 31 minutes in his final two seasons at Clemson - these are probably the best two players to transfer from VU in recent memory that have at least a season in the books after VU.
That talent differential is what makes it much tougher for the mid-majors to unexpectedly lose a key player either to transfer or injury. There just is not as much talent available that can step in as a replacement.
We're stuck on relying on transfers? Who and what prompted that comment?
I would say every NCAA basketball program relies on transfers. No matter what conference. I can't think of a program that doesn't. It's a part of the game now and we have luckily benefited from it (and been hurt by it) with some amazing transfers.
Just don't see how the 4 players you identified as the "relied on" transfers equate to the conclusion you draw in the second quote. Yes, as I have said before, Joe Burton was the big mistake that caused a cascade of events, on that we agree. Are Eron Gordon and Nick Robinson two of your scrap heap players? I have a tendency to agree more with Paul (Pgmado), and as someone who has some recruiting experience, thinking that Matt has done a pretty good job of recruiting out of high school. As an example, I think getting two players like Clay and Krikke in the same class is the exception rather than the rule in Mid-Major recruiting.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 03, 2020, 10:12:26 PMFazekas, when healthy, was perhaps Valpo's second best player both last season and the season prior to that.
Marcus Golder and Bakari Evelyn were both top five in scoring and minutes played from 2017 through 2019.
For 2017-18, Valpo planned to "rely" most heavily on transfer Joe Burton before he flunked out of school.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 02, 2020, 09:13:10 PMWe're stuck relying on transfers because we struggle to recruit talented enough kids out of high school. We're then left digging through the transfer scrap heap, searching for players who showed promise in high school but have failed to realize it at the collegiate level. I believe this has added to our roster discordance; the parts just dont seem to fit. Or maybe it simply feels that way because we seem so bad right now.
Drake got hit by a transfer that was probably just as impactful as JFL in Robbins but they seem to have come through it okay. What is the difference? It appears that Drake has players they can run an offense through and shooters that shoot well... We it appears have not demonstrated either this season although I do suspect that Krikke and Clay will be guys you can run an offense through reliably We just need the rest of the team to step up around them which hasn't happened yet.
I idefntified more than four players who met my criteria for being transfers Valpo has "relied" upon over the course of its recent history. So I'll assume you were referring to the first four I mentioned?
Regardles, I would argue all of the transfers listed in my last post were taken off of what I referred to as the "transfer scrap heap" -- players who underperformed at the colleges and universities they initially attended looking for a fresh start. In contrast to these players, there are transfers such as Brandon Wood or JFL, who met or exceeded expectations and decided to transfer for different reasons. Almost all of Valpo's recent incoming transfers fit the first description. (JUCO transfers dont seem to fit the context of this arguement well one way or another.)
Eron most certainly underperformed while at Seton Hall. Nick however was a contributor his sophmore year at St. Joe's. Nick falls somewhere in between the underperfomed/met expectations or overperformed paradigm; nonetheless, he likely transfered due to an expectation of his role being reduced should he have remained at St. Joe's. His example is singular and not outstanding enough to challenge the idea that Valpo is attracting the wrong type of transfers.
Again, I don't think I fully understand the points Pgmado was trying to make. At first it seemed he was talking about Valpo's best players not being transfers in the majority of cases. I dont think we've argued against that here. I haven't. His second point had something to do with the number of transfers Valpo has had on its roster since Lottich took over.
I agree Clay and Krikke have both shown great promise.
My inital point was not that Valpo has not been recruiting any talented players whatsoever directly from high school. Valpo is however struggling to recruit enough of them. That should be apparent. Thus the team is forced to fill out its roster with players almost exclusivley from the transfer scrap heap.
Where would this program be without the early transfers of David Redmon and Casey Schmidt.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 04, 2020, 02:57:41 PMI idefntified more than four players who met my criteria for being transfers Valpo has "relied" upon over the course of its recent history. So I'll assume you were referring to the first four I mentioned?
Nice deflection! You know very well why I only mentioned those four. Recent history? Your implications initially where that this has happened during the Lottich era.
What am I deflecting from?
No, I didn't. Hence, the reason for asking.
My implications? I'm talking about our recent history. I consider a few years prior to when Lottich took over to be part of that.
What exacty is your overall point anyway?
I can concurrently hold the positions that we have "relied" upon our recent transfers and that these transfers have been taken off the scrap heap, you know.
BTW, "relying" on a player doesn't necessarily mean they performed well. For instance, Bakari and Golder were terrible their last season here. A present example of this idea is Sackey. Clearly we rely on him; the problem is he sucks.
To sum up my position: we aren't recruiting enough talent out of high school... forcing us to dig through the transfer scrap heap... and also that we have come to rely on these players during our recent history.
Sackey's biggest problem...he's playing too fast for some of the guys on this roster. Our bigs run down the court like offensive lineman watching the running back breakout for a 75-yard TD, and then wonder why the ball gets turned over so much. The 3-4-5 guys need to move down the court, and get ready. Can't run set plays with 5 seconds of the shot clock being lost to slugs getting downcourt.
Quote from: valporun on December 04, 2020, 09:10:36 PM
Sackey's biggest problem...he's playing too fast for some of the guys on this roster. Our bigs run down the court like offensive lineman watching the running back breakout for a 75-yard TD, and then wonder why the ball gets turned over so much. The 3-4-5 guys need to move down the court, and get ready. Can't run set plays with 5 seconds of the shot clock being lost to slugs getting downcourt.
He also can't shoot [emoji2369]
Quote from: a3uge on December 04, 2020, 09:15:15 PM
Quote from: valporun on December 04, 2020, 09:10:36 PM
Sackey's biggest problem...he's playing too fast for some of the guys on this roster. Our bigs run down the court like offensive lineman watching the running back breakout for a 75-yard TD, and then wonder why the ball gets turned over so much. The 3-4-5 guys need to move down the court, and get ready. Can't run set plays with 5 seconds of the shot clock being lost to slugs getting downcourt.
He also can't shoot [emoji2369]
Not every point guard is supposed to be averaging 20 points a game. Again, this feeds to he plays too fast for some of the guys on the roster. If you notice often, he's downcourt before some of the guys have even turned to see where the ball is going. When he gets to a point where he could shoot, he's already doubled because the defenders know where he's going compared to the other 4 guys on our roster.
Quote from: JBC1824 on December 04, 2020, 08:50:53 PMMy implications? I'm talking about our recent history. I consider a few years prior to when Lottich took over to be part of that.
What exacty is your overall point anyway?
Sorry, I am not trying to be a jerk. I just don't agree with your premise and I honestly feel, and it seemed pretty obvious, that you weren't evaluating the Drews and their use of the transfer, rather that your remarks were focused on Matt and his staff. The inclusion of the the few years prior to Matt taking over was a little disingenuous and seemed a deflection from Paul's post showing that numbers of transfers have been pretty consistent and maybe even down during the Lottich tenure. EVERY team can and could recruit better, but at the mid-major level talent evaluation is even more important. I guess it is obvious that you and I differ in how you think our coaching staff has done the job of evaluating and then recruiting the under valued/recruited high school player.
I agree that the program has concerns. I suppose my experiences have made me more sympathetic toward the staff than the average poster.