Hey Valpo fans!
I'm a VU alum and I currently host a sports podcast. I'm going to be doing a livestream soon (date/time TBD - I will share later) on Facebook.com/jackvitashow and Youtube.com/jackvita where I will be talking with a pair of other alums about what the next Valparaiso team name should be.
I would LOVE for you to respond to this post with your best suggestions for a new mascot/team name. I want to include as many suggestions as I can in the livestream, and will give you a shoutout if you suggest a name. What should Valpo's new team name be?
i am sure you have heard it before but I like the "Knights"...good luck on your pod cast
Quote from: jackvitashow on May 25, 2021, 03:12:05 PM
Hey Valpo fans!
I'm a VU alum and I currently host a sports podcast. I'm going to be doing a livestream soon (date/time TBD - I will share later) on Facebook.com/jackvitashow and Youtube.com/jackvita where I will be talking with a pair of other alums about what the next Valparaiso team name should be.
I would LOVE for you to respond to this post with your best suggestions for a new mascot/team name. I want to include as many suggestions as I can in the livestream, and will give you a shoutout if you suggest a name. What should Valpo's new team name be?
I've suggested the "Golden Knights"which would follow the previous change from Uhlen to Crusader. Still a guy in armor but with a different name. Or, "The Flames", something to follow on the Valpo theme of other organizations light The Beacon, The lighter, The Torch etc. the other possibility in my mind is to just stick with the "The Brown and Gold". This would put us in good company with other schools just using a color like The Crimson or The Cardinal.
If you look down the page of topics on the basketball page to the topic New Mascot there is six pages of ideas. My choice is Vultures. Look forward to your show.
I really like Golden Knights. Yes, it is used by the Vegas hockey team but it is not used in college sports. Knights is also fine.
A while back I compiled a list of the names suggested and posted in another thread. Copying it here. Some good, some decent, some not so much.
My personal favorite is "Gold".
Golden Knights/Knights
Gold
Bold (Brown and Gold)
Storm/Golden Storm (not to be confused with Golden Shower)
Lakers/Great Lakers/Golden Lakers
Shield
Dunehawks
Hilltoppers
Kernels/Fighting Kernels/Golden Kernels
Victory/Victory Bells
Golden Gales
Crew/Golden Crew
Union
Golden Bells
Trailblazers
Voyagers
Paladins
Huskarl
Hussars
Dragons
Lancers
Rollers
Surge
Breakers
Blizzard
Golden Otters/Fighting Otters
Yeti/Golden Yeti/Fighting Yeti
Dune Surfers
Saders
Koalas
Polar Bears
Tundra Thunder
Lake Effect
Glockners
Zvonars
Bellringers
Adding:
Vanguard
Brown and Gold
United
Etwetritschen
Flames
I tend to like either just being the Brown and Gold or just the Gold or Bold.
I also have liked the Vortex and it's got an alliteration and goes well with both the meteorology program and the fact that many students come to Valpo and learn first hand the meaning of the word "Polar Vortex"
I'm on record of not liking the Knight or Golden knight b/c I tend to find Knights as a mascot name pretty bland and it seems that there wasn't much rallying around the Crusader mascot that I think wasn't solely or even mostly about finding the name/identity offensive and just it not really resonating with the campus and I worry that basically just making him a Knight may not increase student Buy in.
With all due respect to the meteorology program (which is good), I would have a real problem singling out one college or program in developing a nickname - especially when it is relatively small compared to other colleges and programs in the university.
The Vaccinators
"Givin' everybody a shot!"
Really like "Voyagers" Goes with Valpo and just seems to fit imo.
Top 3 in no particular order:
Dunehawks
Hilltoppers
Kernels/Fighting Kernels/Golden Kernels
The Valpo...
Shield
Vanguard
Dunehawks
Top 3.
Golden Knights is very boring.
Quote from: jtm on May 29, 2021, 07:08:24 AM
Golden Knights is very boring.
As opposed to?
Lancers is a really good idea. Saw it on the list above. Not super far off from Crusader. Easy transition.
The university's humble-braggers and virtue signalers that created the illusion of a problem with the name "Crusader" will never allow substitute names like Lancers and Knights.
Let's not confuse the daze with the Knights and just go with the "Brown and Gold".
I also like Lancers, as it is still unique (there is a high school in the Chicago suburbs with the nickname Lancers). Golden Lancers could work too. No offense to those who have suggested it, but I do not like Brown and Gold as a nickname - nor do I like Gold. Additionally, I would not recommend "creating" an animal (I am not aware that there is a bird species named Dunehawks).
As long as the university is hell-bent on hiding its Christian identity, it might as well get some brand value out of it. Dunehawks works perfectly when Valpo partners with Grand Canyon Education to establish a vibrant, high quality, online/in-person hybrid degree completion program for working adults and nursing students in the NWI Region.
Quote from: wh on May 30, 2021, 12:01:55 PM
As long as the university is hell-bent on hiding its Christian identity, it might as well get some brand value out of it. Dunehawks works perfectly when Valpo partners with Grand Canyon Education to establish a vibrant, high quality, online/in-person hybrid degree completion program for working adults and nursing students in the NWI Region.
This may have been posted on the message board before but here is an story where the writer says why he likes Dunehawks and when it was first proposed as a replacement for Uhlans in 1942 before Crusaders was ever chosen.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/griffonagedotcom.wordpress.com/2021/02/13/crusaders-no-more-go-valpo-dunehawks/amp/
There is some consideration, apparently, to simply going with "Valpo" and not replacing the Crusader name.
I was informed that some people believe the "Valpo" name is already a national brand, and as a result would be a better choice than trying to come up with a replacement name that everyone could get behind.
I'm probably in the minority on this, but I have never liked the "Valpo" name. It just seems ... unserious, I guess, and not very classy. I much prefer "Valparaiso University" and I have never purchased any "Valpo" gear.
Paul
"Valpo" is a national brand the same way the NCAA is a "model of consistency".
Quote from: 78crusader on May 30, 2021, 01:49:08 PMI was informed that some people believe the "Valpo" name is already a national brand,
I think that's right as nobody knows us as the Crusader but just Valpo. May not be as classy as Valparaiso University but it isn't mispronounced half the time either! I really think just name recognition is the most valuable issue, not the mascot. And as for abbreviations, one could think of others like SMU, UCLA, TCU, VCU or other shortened but yet fully recognized names.
Living in Valpo and not being a graduate and not even a lifer, I don't find a lot of connection between the university and the "Dunes." It seems quite a stretch.
But Brown and Gold also offers very little appeal.
Mascots matter.
I am still backing Swamp Ducks, which isn't about anything. You can just do some great cheers that rhyme with it.
FYI Grace College in Warsaw IN are the "Lancers". Brand names and recognition are all that matters. If "Valpo" is the Nationally recognized name, just plain "Valpo" is fine with me...the "Brown and Gold" nick name will take care of itself in the natural flow of things. Forget a mascot.
Quote from: wh on May 30, 2021, 12:01:55 PM
As long as the university is hell-bent on hiding its Christian identity, it might as well get some brand value out of it. Dunehawks works perfectly when Valpo partners with Grand Canyon Education to establish a vibrant, high quality, online/in-person hybrid degree completion program for working adults and nursing students in the NWI Region.
This has been covered in several other threads, but Grand Canyon Education is a fraudulent company with fraudulent leaders. I am confident that Valpo's administration recognizes this and will make the right decisions. The completer program is a good idea and there are other good partners for such a program.
Quote from: vu72 on May 30, 2021, 04:13:32 PM
Quote from: 78crusader on May 30, 2021, 01:49:08 PMI was informed that some people believe the "Valpo" name is already a national brand,
I think that's right as nobody knows us as the Crusader but just Valpo. May not be as classy as Valparaiso University but it isn't mispronounced half the time either! I really think just name recognition is the most valuable issue, not the mascot. And as for abbreviations, one could think of others like SMU, UCLA, TCU, VCU or other shortened but yet fully recognized names.
And all of those schools have an actual nickname. There is a reason all schools have one. Let's not think we are smarter than everyone else. Two major thumbs down to this idea. While I'm at it, Brown and Gold are our colors they don't need to pull double duty.
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 30, 2021, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: wh on May 30, 2021, 12:01:55 PM
As long as the university is hell-bent on hiding its Christian identity, it might as well get some brand value out of it. Dunehawks works perfectly when Valpo partners with Grand Canyon Education to establish a vibrant, high quality, online/in-person hybrid degree completion program for working adults and nursing students in the NWI Region.
This has been covered in several other threads, but Grand Canyon Education is a fraudulent company with fraudulent leaders. I am confident that Valpo's administration recognizes this and will make the right decisions. The completer program is a good idea and there are other good partners for such a program.
Well, as has been "covered in several other threads," either you're right and those who signed the MOU for Valpo last September are hapless fools whose due diligence skills are at the level of a 10-year-old child, or they knew exactly what they were doing and who they were doing it with, and you're operating from outdated, irrelevant information not pertinent to anything. I have a great deal of respect for you and your wealth of knowledge about a lot of topics, but I think your professed disdain about "for profit" education models may be clouding your judgment.
Today being the 1st of June I believe an announcement should be made this month regarding the four choices the panel chose for the new nickname/mascot for Valparaiso University.
Quote from: wh on May 31, 2021, 05:18:53 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 30, 2021, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: wh on May 30, 2021, 12:01:55 PM
As long as the university is hell-bent on hiding its Christian identity, it might as well get some brand value out of it. Dunehawks works perfectly when Valpo partners with Grand Canyon Education to establish a vibrant, high quality, online/in-person hybrid degree completion program for working adults and nursing students in the NWI Region.
This has been covered in several other threads, but Grand Canyon Education is a fraudulent company with fraudulent leaders. I am confident that Valpo's administration recognizes this and will make the right decisions. The completer program is a good idea and there are other good partners for such a program.
Well, as has been "covered in several other threads," either you're right and those who signed the MOU for Valpo last September are hapless fools whose due diligence skills are at the level of a 10-year-old child, or they knew exactly what they were doing and who they were doing it with, and you're operating from outdated, irrelevant information not pertinent to anything. I have a great deal of respect for you and your wealth of knowledge about a lot of topics, but I think your professed disdain about "for profit" education models may be clouding your judgment.
I do not view the situation of this MOU (or any MOU) as "they must be hapless fools or the information is wrong." It is entirely possible that good people with all of the best intentions used the information that they had and made a decision to sign an MOU (which, by definition, is non-binding). Any vendor would push for an MOU because it increases the perceived level of commitment. They could sign the MOU and then other parties (Deans, faculty, alumni) bring additional information that they can verify. In this case, from everything I see (which includes a report from the U.S. Dept of Education regarding the structure of the relationship between GCE and GCU) the information is accurate. As I stated before, I (along with others) sent concerns about GCE with the specific information to the university and I am confident is taking that input seriously.
Thank you for the kind words...I would say that that I also respect the knowledge of you and many others on this board. I have a real problem with the for-profit model of college education - which is a different discussion with different arguments. This is about who you choose as a vendor that you would need to partner with and my opinions would be the same if the company were not linked to a for-profit university. Bottom line is that in business (and this would be a business relationship) you only partner with trustworthy companies. In this case, there are other very good companies to partner with for a completer program (and I have no vested interest in any of those companies).
Family.
Welcome to the Valpo Family.
Beacon
Quote from: talksalot on June 01, 2021, 09:12:37 PM
Family.
Welcome to the Valpo Family.
Beacon
Please let's not be the Family although our logo could be those stick figures already on many cars today.
We'll be LIVE tonight at 7pm CT on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. You'll be able to comment live and we'll try to read your comments. If you miss the livestream, you'll be able to watch or listen to it on-demand at jackvita.com
facebook.com/jackvitashow
twitter.com/jackvitashow
youtube.com/jackvita
Quote from: jackvitashow on June 02, 2021, 01:01:47 PM
We'll be LIVE tonight at 7pm CT on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. You'll be able to comment live and we'll try to read your comments. If you miss the livestream, you'll be able to watch or listen to it on-demand at jackvita.com
facebook.com/jackvitashow
twitter.com/jackvitashow
youtube.com/jackvita
Direct link ;)
https://youtu.be/tSKdV8UsZbA
Not that there is anything wrong with that but poppers are sex drug.
It is very important to choose a nickname that would not put Valpo in a negative light ... and poppers would be one of those nicknames. People comment on some nicknames being 'boring', but a nickname that can be ridiculed would be far worse.
I think WH stumbled on an idea a few posts back when he wisely said that the logical names like Knights or Lancers would never be allowed by the virtue signalers who are knee deep in this process. Voyagers actually makes sense but is dangerously close to violent Vikings.
So what welook further for alliteration and call ourselves the "Valpo Virtue Signalers." We could ring the "virtue bell" after every game in which no one is conquered. We will simply demonstrate against one another peacefully.
Quote from: VU75 on June 03, 2021, 04:12:53 PMNot that there is anything wrong with that but poppers are sex drug.
As well Jalapeno Poppers... plus it is a horrible name for a team. I was not impressed with the top names those three chose during the podcast.
Quote from: vuny98 on June 07, 2021, 09:57:43 AM
Quote from: VU75 on June 03, 2021, 04:12:53 PMNot that there is anything wrong with that but poppers are sex drug.
As well Jalapeno Poppers... plus it is a horrible name for a team. I was not impressed with the top names those three chose during the podcast.
The top mascots were:
Victory Bells
Rays
Lakers
Poppers
Koalas
Otters
Dune Surfers
Kernels
Closely followed by
Brown Bears
Homer's
Fighting Paul Orens
Geez - most of those names are pretty awful.
Has anybody mentioned Saxons? The LCMS was founded by Saxons who came to this country to avoid being forced to unite with the Prussian Lutheran church.
Quote from: VU75 on June 07, 2021, 05:46:39 PM
Has anybody mentioned Saxons? The LCMS was founded by Saxons who came to this country to avoid being forced to unite with the Prussian Lutheran church.
Saxony Lutheran High School in Jackson, Missouri where many of the students are descendants of the original immigrants that came to Perry County, Missouri along the Mississippi River in the 1830's and 1840's. German Lutheran immigrants who came to this country and settled in middle America seeking freedom of religion from the state governments in Germany which had yet to form a central German government. They had state run Religion Departments which oversaw the churches and the clergy. Mostly from the areas of Dresden and Leipzig in the state of Saxony this group formed a Gesellschaft, or unit of people to immigrate and escape the state Religion departments that forced them into unions with the German Reformed Church which had different practices for baptism and communion. Some of the Lutheran pastors were actually running from arrest by the Prussian influenced Religion Departments of the government of Saxony when they boarded 5 boats in Bremerhaven on the North Sea and sailed for America. Immigrants, who couldn't speak much English. One of the boats was lost at sea. No sign of the boat that sailed in 1837 from Germany was ever found. Four boats made it to New Orleans but that city was hot and not much like Germany. They had bought land in Missouri from profiteers who sold them much unfarmable land. There was much suffering and death in Perry County due mostly from the fact that they were not used to farming but had faith in God protecting them and watching over them. When it was found that their Bishop and spiritual leader, Bishop Stephen, had sinned many times with some of the ladies of the Gesellschaft he was banished from their settlements in Perry County and by then St Louis where many of the immigrants had been put in what was supposed to be temporary housing until they could move to Perry County. Many of those immigrants found jobs in St Louis and ended up settling there especially after the issue with Bishop Stephen was discovered. It was CFW Walther who became the defacto leader of the two Lutheran communities in Perry County and St Louis although he never claimed any title except President of the LUTHERAN SYNOD of Missouri, Ohio and other states. If not for Walther's leadership many of those immigrants would have moved back to Germany. It was later changed to Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and headquartered in downtown St Louis and later the headquarters were moved to Kirkwood Missouri, a suburb of St Louis. One of my own relatives, my great grandfather, from St Louis helped build the mausoleum that contains the body of CFW Walther in Concordia Cemetery on Bates Ave. in south St Louis.
This Saxony Lutheran High School uses the nickname Crusaders, believe it or not.
http://www.saxonylutheranhigh.org/athletics/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWC_BT7P2H0
More on CFW Walther
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98VWLcfU_lA
Interesting. Thanks for finding this. My Great grandfather's ordination papers were signed by CFW Walther.
Saxons is a promising idea. Schaumburg high school in Illinois is the Saxons, but I am not aware of it being used in D1 (though it is probably used by some colleges at lower levels). However, my guess is that there might be some pushback as it can be viewed as too close to 'Anglo-Saxon' (please don't read into my comments that I necessarily agree with that potential pushback).
The Anglo -Saxons were immigrants who contributed to the creation of a multi-cultural society.
Quote from: vu72 on June 08, 2021, 07:03:34 AM
Interesting. Thanks for finding this. My Great grandfather's ordination papers were signed by CFW Walther.
To be honest I didn't find this. I was taught this from certain family members, six of them were pastors. Both sides of my family did
NOT immigrate from Saxony in the 1830's. My families, father's side immigrated in the 1880's from the Prussian area to St Louis and my mother's family from Bavaria to Arkansas in the 1850's, under the direction of Wilhelm Löhe who supplied pastors for many German Lutherans in America. It was Löhe who sent Wyneken to Ft Wayne and Wyneken aligned with Walther in Missouri. Later Walther and Löhe had a falling out and most of the pastors Löhe later supplied to America became members of the Buffalo Synod under JAA Grabau (later moving into the Milwaukee area and becoming WELS) and the Iowa Synod in areas around Dubuque and later Decorah, Iowa that become the American Lutheran Church which later helped unite into the ELCA. Of course the Swedes and Norwegians had moved into Minnesota and were Lutherans traditionally because Sweden and Norway and other countries had state controlled Lutheran churches. The oldest Lutherans in America were under Henry Muhlenberg, and the Pennsylvania Ministerium, mostly around Philadelphia, and affiliated with the Seminary at Gettysburg, made famous in the American Civil War battle. They also mostly joined in with the ELCA.
I hope "Valparaiso Virtue Signalers" is not a leading candidate in the bowels of the PC decision makers.
Ring the Virtue Bell after victories.
Our former player, Sigurd Lorange, ended up playing for the Converse Valkyries. The Valpo Valkyries has a nice ring to it till it is discovered that Valkyries were Norse gods who decided who lived or dies in battle. Not a good look!
Quote from: vu72 on June 09, 2021, 11:15:40 AM
Our former player, Sigurd Lorange, ended up playing for the Converse Valkyries. The Valpo Valkyries has a nice ring to it till it is discovered that Valkyries were Norse gods who decided who lived or dies in battle. Not a good look!
Yeah, I wonder what the new Men's team at Converse think of the nickname. I would fully support the name for the Women's teams, but I would not want to play for the Valkyries as a man :)
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/1403012988743806977
Apologies if this has been posted in another thread but according to a survey that was just emailed out, the finalists appear to be:
Storm
Beacons
Gold
Sparks
Lightning
Tempest
Dunehawks
Lightning Hawks
Personally not a huge fan of any of them (why wasn't Knights an option? Seemed too logical). But the last two "hawk" nicknames sound like minor league baseball teams. Like we've tried too hard to be unique. And what is a "lightning hawk" anyway? I guess I'd reluctantly prefer one of the first six.
I like Storm and Dunehawk best out of the list. A few others are fine. Whatever, it doesn't matter to me lets just rip the bandaid all the way off and pick one.
I wonder why they went with the plural "Beacons" rather than "Beacon." I've always had an affinity for singular team names (e.g. Utah Jazz or Oklahoma Thunder).
"Sparks" sounds diminutive to me...
Quote from: valpotx on June 09, 2021, 05:33:32 PM
Quote from: vu72 on June 09, 2021, 11:15:40 AM
Our former player, Sigurd Lorange, ended up playing for the Converse Valkyries. The Valpo Valkyries has a nice ring to it till it is discovered that Valkyries were Norse gods who decided who lived or dies in battle. Not a good look!
Yeah, I wonder what the new Men's team at Converse think of the nickname. I would fully support the name for the Women's teams, but I would not want to play for the Valkyries as a man :)
Men don't seem to have a problem playing for the Blue Hens of Delaware.
Gold, Sparks, and Beacons are all pretty lame
Favorite: Gold
Ok: Dunehawks, Storm, Lightning
Hate: Beacons, Tempest, Lightning Hawks, Sparks
Gold isn't super exciting on its own, but it does some things really well. Plays into tradition, is very unique to the university, ability to pair easily with the shield logo, and most importantly isn't kitschy/polarizing/lame. I personally think the simplicity of the name actually makes it really cool. Some of the others seem like they are trying too hard to be unique and cool.
I am personally very happy none of these went the popcorn route, although I know some on this board really liked that approach.
Valparaiso Gold sounds like Acapulco Gold and could cause a high state of confusion at concession stands or in the gift shop at the Harre Union! ;)
This has some interesting parallels to Marquette's history.
1954-1993: Warriors.
1994: Name changed to Golden Eagles, which beat out Lightning in a vote of the student body.
2005: Administration and board of trustees decided to change the name to Gold. This resulted in Marquette stakeholders (students, alumni, fans) strongly rejecting Gold, which then lead to a reconsideration and new vote. With input from the vote, the decision was made to stay with Golden Eagles.
Precedent for the name Dunehawk:
The Mascot Committee needs to be fired. Terrible names, and all require a complete rebrand of all logos associated with the Athletics program. What a waste of money...
Quote from: valpotx on June 10, 2021, 12:51:02 PM
The Mascot Committee needs to be fired. Terrible names, and all require a complete rebrand of all logos associated with the Athletics program. What a waste of money...
There are definitely some poor names, that's a valid criticism. But, just about any new name was going to require a rebrand of logos (except for Golden Knights which was never going to happen and is also extremely boring)... So, criticizing them for logos is a bit unfair. Anyone that thought we were going to keep the Knight logo was just being naïve
I can only assume Tempest was chosen because it is so bad anything else looks good. We have had months of suggestions but this is easily the worst.
I think Gold is bad as well not wild about Sparks. There are Hawks, Red Hawks,Fighting Hawks, Mountain Hawks, War Hawks, Skyhawks and Jayhawks in D1 why not a Dunehawk? Beacons, Lightning and Storm would be unique to D1
Quote from: mp91 on June 10, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 10, 2021, 12:51:02 PM
The Mascot Committee needs to be fired. Terrible names, and all require a complete rebrand of all logos associated with the Athletics program. What a waste of money...
There are definitely some poor names, that's a valid criticism. But, just about any new name was going to require a rebrand of logos (except for Golden Knights which was never going to happen and is also extremely boring)... So, criticizing them for logos is a bit unfair. Anyone that thought we were going to keep the Knight logo was just being naïve
Why didn't they incorporate the shield in at least one of their suggestions?
Quote from: valpopal on June 10, 2021, 01:08:26 PM
Quote from: mp91 on June 10, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 10, 2021, 12:51:02 PM
The Mascot Committee needs to be fired. Terrible names, and all require a complete rebrand of all logos associated with the Athletics program. What a waste of money...
There are definitely some poor names, that's a valid criticism. But, just about any new name was going to require a rebrand of logos (except for Golden Knights which was never going to happen and is also extremely boring)... So, criticizing them for logos is a bit unfair. Anyone that thought we were going to keep the Knight logo was just being naïve
Why didn't they incorporate the shield in at least one of their suggestions?
Sadly if they pick Gold it is because they can use the shield.
For that matter a Dunehawk can carry a shield. He is a very versatile bird
Quote from: valpopal on June 10, 2021, 01:08:26 PM
Quote from: mp91 on June 10, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 10, 2021, 12:51:02 PM
The Mascot Committee needs to be fired. Terrible names, and all require a complete rebrand of all logos associated with the Athletics program. What a waste of money...
There are definitely some poor names, that's a valid criticism. But, just about any new name was going to require a rebrand of logos (except for Golden Knights which was never going to happen and is also extremely boring)... So, criticizing them for logos is a bit unfair. Anyone that thought we were going to keep the Knight logo was just being naïve
Why didn't they incorporate the shield in at least one of their suggestions?
You can still keep the shield logo with a new name. Most schools have multiple logos. Just because you become the Storm or whatever doesn't mean you have to get rid of the shield logo. Purdue has like three logos: "P", the train logo, and Purdue Pete.... The new logo would just be replacing the Knight
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 10, 2021, 01:06:49 PM
I can only assume Tempest was chosen because it is so bad anything else looks good. We have had months of suggestions but this is easily the worst.
I think Gold is bad as well not wild about Sparks. There are Hawks, Red Hawks,Fighting Hawks, Mountain Hawks, War Hawks, Skyhawks and Jayhawks in D1 why not a Dunehawk? Beacons, Lightning and Storm would be unique to D1
Storm is not that unique to D1 - St. John's Red Storm.
Lightning - If there were copyright issues with the Vegas hockey team, wouldn't there be issues with the Tampa hockey team? Also (as mentioned in other posts), not good to emphasize an academic program regardless of whether it is large or small.
Beacons - Ehhh?
Given these choices (which are not great), I could go with Dunehawks (but would prefer to go back to the drawing board).
By the way, Kansas' nickname was Jayhawks before the bird was applied. Jayhawks (from Jayhawkers) has a very positive historical nature.
You can forget about Lightning Hawk. The Lightning Hawk name is already being shot down (pun intended) by the politically correct folks who retired the Crusader because that is also the name of a powerful gun in the Resident Evil video game series.
Quote from: mp91 on June 10, 2021, 01:32:23 PM
Quote from: valpopal on June 10, 2021, 01:08:26 PM
Quote from: mp91 on June 10, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 10, 2021, 12:51:02 PM
The Mascot Committee needs to be fired. Terrible names, and all require a complete rebrand of all logos associated with the Athletics program. What a waste of money...
There are definitely some poor names, that's a valid criticism. But, just about any new name was going to require a rebrand of logos (except for Golden Knights which was never going to happen and is also extremely boring)... So, criticizing them for logos is a bit unfair. Anyone that thought we were going to keep the Knight logo was just being naïve
Why didn't they incorporate the shield in at least one of their suggestions?
You can still keep the shield logo with a new name. Most schools have multiple logos. Just because you become the Storm or whatever doesn't mean you have to get rid of the shield logo. Purdue has like three logos: "P", the train logo, and Purdue Pete.... The new logo would just be replacing the Knight
I didn't conclude the shield would need to go. I was suggesting it would have been practical and beneficial to blend the shield identity with a mascot suggestion.
If these are actually the names on the "final" list, what a waste of time on their part If I had to choose one I would go with the "gold" but I do not like any of them....just go with "Valpo"
And here we see the problem with political correctness. Take something that 5% of the population had an issue with and replace it with something 75% of the population will hate.
I am not going to fault the Mascot Committee (although I should for some of the really really bad options, unless they added some really bad options on purpose just so we all have something to unite us against, so we can all say at least it wasn't the lightening hawks, which if that was their thinking, bravo brilliant move). The Mascot committee was put in an impossible position. No one will agree on a new mascot. For everyone that likes Gold (me) there will be 3 people that say they think its a dumb/boring name. For everyone one that says they like Beacon's, there will be someone like me saying that it is the lamest mascot name I could think of.
Quote from: vuny98 on June 10, 2021, 03:21:50 PM
And here we see the problem with political correctness. Take something that 5% of the population had an issue with and replace it with something 75% of the population will hate.
I am not going to fault the Mascot Committee (although I should for some of the really really bad options, unless they added some really bad options on purpose just so we all have something to unite us against, so we can all say at least it wasn't the lightening hawks, which if that was their thinking, bravo brilliant move). The Mascot committee was put in an impossible position. No one will agree on a new mascot. For everyone that likes Gold (me) there will be 3 people that say they think its a dumb/boring name. For everyone one that says they like Beacon's, there will be someone like me saying that it is the lamest mascot name I could think of.
You are exactly correct. I had my favorite but my overall goal was nothing lame. Unfortunately there a several contenders that are lame in my mind and yes to further prove your point I would list Gold among them. However I am leaning towards anything but Tempest.
I agree that the Committee should be disbanded as it is and was a waste of money for the results that they brought forward for consideration. It is a joke. These names sound more like a list some 5th or 6th graders would come up with to name their 5/6 grade team. The Dune hawks? Are you kidding? As an alum of Valpo, I am embarrassed by this effort. It is an insult.
This entire process has been botched. The folks who wanted to get rid of the Crusader jumped at the opportunity to change the name without thinking about next steps. They created a mess and then left President Padilla to clean it up.
If Valpo quietly disbanded the mascot committee and didn't change the logo on the basketball court, they could probably get away with reintroducing the Crusader in a few years.
This is what happens when you let the tail wag the dog.
Screw having a nickname. Just go by Valpo.
Use Valparaiso and Valpo. Keep the shield.
Has anyone who has ever lived in valpo said "look a Dunehawk".
Fools in charge.
None of the above!
Quote from: Chairback on June 10, 2021, 08:28:14 PMScrew having a nickname. Just go by Valpo.
Use Valparaiso and Valpo. Keep the shield.
:thumbsup: Having no answer is sometimes better than having a bad answer.
Quote from: Chairback on June 10, 2021, 08:28:14 PMHas anyone who has ever lived in valpo said "look a Dunehawk".
A Dunehawk seems to be a nothing other than a Nissan Corp advertising concept. So no and if they pick anything else on that list I will be tempted to send the committee a picture of my naked behind.
Seems like we should have a poll here to appropriately inform the committee of the best choice. Anyone industrious enough to set that up in a new thread?
Seriously, who the F came up with Tempest? Have they played a sport in their entire life? Yeah, really intimidating. I can see putting on the Tempest Baseball jersey/shirt, and really scaring the sh!t out of the opponents. What in the actual F...
I could eventually rally around the Dune Hawks, as it at least sounds cool, even though people in The Region would wonder what the heck that is. Sparks and Storm are too feminine-sounding, mainly due to my awareness of the WNBA teams.
I would have liked "Monks." Unique. Nice tie in to Lutheranism and Martin Luther.
Storm has the most potential.
I imagine the lights being turned down low and the sound of rain being played with flashes of lightning. The student section can be given pool noodles and/or pots/pans to replicate thunder.
"At guard, who is faster than lightning, ...
At the other guard, who can make it rain...
At center, stronger than an F4 tornado..."
Feels a little Harlem Wizards ish !!
And that's all folks. Don't really have too many ideas for the Introductions or student section for the other proposals.
Those new names are a joke. What a sad state of affairs.
The shield symbol is already tied and recognizable to Valpo. Just keep the symbol and dump the nickname. Save some considerable cash doing this also.
I agree some of them sound like WNBA names or car brands.
Quote from: Chairback on June 11, 2021, 10:16:06 AM
The shield symbol is already tied and recognizable to Valpo. Just keep the symbol and dump the nickname. Save some considerable cash doing this also.
Yes. How difficult would it have been to keep the shield as the main logo and change the name from Crusader (which supposedly was the main objection) to something else like Knight or Golden Knight or Paladin or Valor or Valiant or Guardian or Protector or anything else more creative than these but less offensive than Crusader appears to some? Perhaps this would be a compromise that unifies the community rather than divides. The basketball center court could even stay the way it is. Think of all the saved money, especially in these times!
When I served on a similar committee at the university in days after construction on center campus of the library, union, and the arts building, there was a protracted debate about where to construct additional walkways between buildings. After hours of tedious discussion with abstract nonsense, I finally suggested the committee actually go outside to see where students had already trodden down the grass walking across campus and use that guideline as a plan to build the walkways on those paths. Sometimes the simpler, practical, and minimalist solution is the best, even when academics are involved.
Quote from: hailcrusaders on June 10, 2021, 11:17:26 AM
Apologies if this has been posted in another thread but according to a survey that was just emailed out, the finalists appear to be:
Storm
Beacons
Gold
Sparks
Lightning
Tempest
Dunehawks
Lightning Hawks
Personally not a huge fan of any of them (why wasn't Knights an option? Seemed too logical). But the last two "hawk" nicknames sound like minor league baseball teams. Like we've tried too hard to be unique. And what is a "lightning hawk" anyway? I guess I'd reluctantly prefer one of the first six.
Another survey I did not receive. I'm sure others did not receive either. Wonder who decides who receives these surveys (or does not)? I know the university has my email on file.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
Thank you for the survey link IndyValpo.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
https://alumni.valpo.edu/controls/email_marketing/view_in_browser.aspx?sid=1347&gid=1&sendId=2550888&ecatid=4&puid=cff78b3d-12f6-44ad-a89d-e42d1670bade
A TOTAL EMBARRASSMENT FOR THE UNIVERSITY. Who in the world picked the people on this so called committee? TIME TO START OVER!!!
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 11, 2021, 02:40:23 PM
https://alumni.valpo.edu/controls/email_marketing/view_in_browser.aspx?sid=1347&gid=1&sendId=2550888&ecatid=4&puid=cff78b3d-12f6-44ad-a89d-e42d1670bade
The survey does not open until Tuesday, but thank you very much for posting this.
Quote from: vu84v2 on June 11, 2021, 04:04:16 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 11, 2021, 02:40:23 PM
https://alumni.valpo.edu/controls/email_marketing/view_in_browser.aspx?sid=1347&gid=1&sendId=2550888&ecatid=4&puid=cff78b3d-12f6-44ad-a89d-e42d1670bade
The survey does not open until Tuesday, but thank you very much for posting this.
My survey opened and I was able to submit it today.
Quote from: Chairback on June 11, 2021, 10:16:06 AM
The shield symbol is already tied and recognizable to Valpo. Just keep the symbol and dump the nickname. Save some considerable cash doing this also.
I agree some of them sound like WNBA names or car brands.
It still boggles the mind that the (interim) leader of this university supported this boondoggle during a financial calamity. Just call it children's hour at Valpo U. BTW, with rare exception women are terrible business leaders - way too emotional and insecure.
A boondoggle is a project that is considered a waste of both time and money, yet is often continued due to extraneous policy or political motivations. Wikipedia
Valpo's Nickname/Mascot will either relate to a color, a light, some sort of inclement weather or a bird.
Valparaiso Gold I would hope Valpo does not follow the Ivy's with the easy way out from this situation.
Valparaiso Beacons a symbol of light and guidance. Not sure how they would portray this name as a mascot.
Valparaiso Sparks plays off of light but reminds me of a spark plug on my old pick up truck sitting idly in the garage. Perhaps a character named "Sparky" can get the the crowd motivated at all the sporting events.
The next 4 relate to weather somehow.
Valparaiso Storm Plays off of a professional WNBA team so not to original. As said earlier St. John's are the Red Storm.
Valparaiso Tempest I will not lie this one I had to Google! "A Shakespearean play about forgiveness and repentance". Quite fitting for the situation the University is in. "A violent windstorm that causes great disturbance or uproar" :o. To me it's just an alternative to Storm. Is tempest a popular phrase in Northwest Indiana?
Valparaiso Lighting A name that is used by a professional hockey team in the Sunshine State. Can be shortened to the Golden Bolts or Bolts IDK. (I keep adding Golden to names because Gold by itself doesn't work for me)
Valparaiso Lightning Hawks is a gun in a video game? Why combine weather with a bird? IDK.
Valparaiso Dunehawks a fictional name that relates to a bird. I can see the University going with this name for it has some history with the University. The colors can work, a brown hawk at the golden dunes.
8 choices with little variety.
1 is a color.
2 relate to light.
2 relate to a hawk.(why 2 hawk)?
4 relate to fierce weather.
(1 combined weather with a bird)
Why 4 dismal inclement destructive types of weather as a mascot?
Where is the variety...
"the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony".
:whiteflag:
Give me a f**king break :o The suggested list just sucks >:( Why not the Valpo Pansies :lol:
Women are too emotional to be leaders? Seriously? Is that really where this is going? I disagree vehemently with the decision to change the mascot but this thread has gone insane. You all claim to love Valpo but clearly hate everything to do with the school now. So move on. Go donate to Liberty if they align with your values.
My guess is that every single one of you that has spent more than five minutes bitching and moaning about the identity of someone in a costume at a basketball game has probably called someone an overly sensitive snowflake at some point in the past 48 hours.
Hell, call us the Valpo Snowflakes if it wins us our first NCAA game in almost a quarter ventury.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on June 11, 2021, 08:09:35 PM
Women are too emotional to be leaders? Seriously? Is that really where this is going? I disagree vehemently with the decision to change the mascot but this thread has gone insane. You all claim to love Valpo but clearly hate everything to do with the school now. So move on. Go donate to Liberty if they align with your values.
My guess is that every single one of you that has spent more than five minutes bitching and moaning about the identity of someone in a costume at a basketball game has probably called someone an overly sensitive snowflake at some point in the past 48 hours.
Hell, call us the Valpo Snowflakes if it wins us our first NCAA game in almost a quarter ventury.
Posters are not bitching about the identity of the person inside the costume....
They are bitching about the costume.
Imprecise language.
Quote from: bbtds on June 11, 2021, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on June 11, 2021, 04:04:16 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 11, 2021, 02:40:23 PM
https://alumni.valpo.edu/controls/email_marketing/view_in_browser.aspx?sid=1347&gid=1&sendId=2550888&ecatid=4&puid=cff78b3d-12f6-44ad-a89d-e42d1670bade
The survey does not open until Tuesday, but thank you very much for posting this.
My survey opened and I was able to submit it today.
My mistake. I misread the introductory statement.
BTW, with rare exception women are terrible business leaders - way too emotional and insecure.
[/quote]
Virtually all (if not all) empirical research on female executives and managers does not support this ignorant statement. There is no significant difference in organizational performance based on whether the organization is lead by a man or a woman.
Commy McCommitteeFace
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: wh on June 11, 2021, 06:27:23 PMIt still boggles the mind that the (interim) leader of this university supported this boondoggle during a financial calamity.
Because it was presented to her by the SBP as the most urgent thing ever and she decided to jump into it without thinking. Having the SBP appear in that announcement video was the interim Presidents way to deflect blame.
The goal was to sandbag President Padilla with this so they pulled the pin and tossed the grenade into his lap. And they reached out to the national media so the story would be picked up and Padilla would have a more difficult time walking it back.
Valpo should just disband the committee and say we can't afford a change at this time. And let the controversy die down.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on June 11, 2021, 08:09:35 PM
Women are too emotional to be leaders? Seriously? Is that really where this is going? I disagree vehemently with the decision to change the mascot but this thread has gone insane. You all claim to love Valpo but clearly hate everything to do with the school now. So move on. Go donate to Liberty if they align with your values.
My guess is that every single one of you that has spent more than five minutes bitching and moaning about the identity of someone in a costume at a basketball game has probably called someone an overly sensitive snowflake at some point in the past 48 hours.
Hell, call us the Valpo Snowflakes if it wins us our first NCAA game in almost a quarter ventury.
Your guess is incorrect. I haven't called someone a snowflake for at least a few years :).
Fyi, when you click the survey, it says that it is open UNTIL 6/15, not starting on 6/15.
I think it will be Storm - a bland pick that meets all ridiculous PC standards. Wheaton College made a similar weather- related choice years ago when they switched from "Crusaders" to "Thunder."
Right now I trust the University - that is, if there is a bad decision to be made, I trust the University will make it.
Paul
My guess is it will be the Gold. Very little change needed and less drama with alumni. You can still incorporate many of our current brand standards with it.
I assume there has been some forecasting on cost change with this. One wild card is if a donor(s) fronts a significant amount of cash and says you have to choose "this one" and covers the cost.
When you google "lightning hawk" all that comes up are things about guns. It doesn't bother me but the PC crowd apparently didn't do their research. Not surprising at all though.
I have no horse in the race. It's a MASCOT!!! The figure running around at basketball games doesn't have to have anything to do with the name. So if we are "The Gold" we could have a person dressed up as a lightning bolt if we wanted to. Witness Alabama, who are the "Crimson Tide" but have an elephant running around.
Nobody outside of the alumni base or those is NW Indiana know us as the Crusaders. We are Valpo.
Just to try to put this all in perspective, consider some examples:
Harvard is "The Crimson" yet their mascot is John Harvard
Stanford is "The Cardinal" yet their mascot is a Tree
Michigan is "The Wolverines" yet they have no mascot.
Tulane is "The Green Wave" but have been fighting over what or who the mascot should be for decades.
North Texas is "The Mean Green" yet their mascot is Scrappy the Eagle.
I rest my brain cells.
No matter which of the names is selected, I will question the process of a committee that has claimed to listen to its constituency's "over 300 unique new naming suggestions" and yet proposes finalists like "Tempest," "Sparks," and "Lightning Hawks." I am certain these and others on the list were not among the most frequently suggested by Valpo fans.
For those curious about who is on the committee, this from The Torch:
The mascot committee includes the following ten representatives: Chairperson Steve Janowiak, Freshman Franco Raimondi, student athlete Eron Gordon, faculty member Professor Joseph Bognar, staff member Briana Scheffer, alumni Danielle Carter Iddins, Chapel Pastor James Wetzstein, communications department's Nicole Niemi, Chief Diversity Officer Byron Martin, athletic department's Mark LaBarbera and finance and administration's Tamara Gingerich.
Enough of this committee. Start over with people who meet these qualifications: intelligence, common sense, some ideas of good PR, among others with an emphasis on INTELLIGENCE and COMMON SENSE! AND BE SURE THAT ALL MEMBERS REALIZE THAT THEIR CHOICE IS FOR A REGIONAL TO NATIONALLY KNOWN QUALITY UNIVERSITY, not a Little League team or 5th grade summer YMCA team. I don't know how he feels about the list or what is or are his favorite(s), but I would be embarrassed and resign from this committee if I was Mark LaB and not be associated with this ridiculous deliberation.
I would be very interested to know Eron Gordon's opinion on all of this.
Although the committee composition was skewed from the beginning with about half its members from the Coalition to Retire the Crusader and one even an administrator of that group, I have been careful not to criticize individuals in my posts and have objected merely to "the process." In fact, among the committee members, I consider a couple friends. I also have served with some on other university committees. Therefore, I know how the process works and how it can be manipulated, which is why I readily acknowledge cynicism. The committee started by establishing a rubric for judging suggestions by those in the community. In my experience, such rubrics are frequently designed to filter out options considered objectionable by some committee members (even though popular among the overall community) without them having to vote against (or even consider) those suggestions. It becomes similar to an employee saying in a disclaimer: "I'm just following company policy." The second step is to selectively choose a "focus group" (were any of us included?) with designed criteria and questions framed to reinforce that policy. This gives the false impression of more widespread support even when there most likely is none (ie. Tempest, Lightning Hawk). You then distribute a "forced-choice poll" (notoriously unreliable) limiting responses to the options chosen by the committee and requiring as an element of participation that respondents reply to all questions whether they have an opinion or not, watering down the impact of the responses. This is almost as bad as the original distorted survey that asked everyone if they considered themselves "a Valpo person" or "a Crusader" but did not permit both choices. For these reasons, as I stated previously, no matter what name is chosen, I will question the process.
From a simple cost perspective, it would make sense to choose a mascot that could still use the old Crusader logo. I'd like to know why the committee appeared to nix any those type of mascots.
Quote from: mj on June 12, 2021, 12:40:43 PM
From a simple cost perspective, it would make sense to choose a mascot that could still use the old Crusader logo. I'd like to know why the committee appeared to nix any those type of mascots.
I totally agree. When we switched from the Uhlen (sp?) to the Crusader it was because of concern due to our wars with Germany. We changed the name but still had a character in armour on a horse. The same could happen again as it is the name, Crusader that is the issue not the armor or shield. Probably just too logical.
If we go with Lightning Hawks we could name our mascot Frank or just simply Zappa and then we could have a second one if we want and call him Zappa dos. ;D The reference possibilities would be endless. (In case you don't get the second one Zapdos is one of the original 150 pokemon I know I dated myself with that reference I assume most of you are familiar with Zappa and no I was not serious with either suggestion.) I don't love a lot of the name choices but at least Lightning Hawks would be unique and Dune Hawks is a nice nod to a prominent natural feature in our era. Beacon is also unique and a good nod to the university and its values. I guess the list isn't as bad as I thought it would be so credit for that.
The list isn't as bad...no, it is worse. It is a great list for naming the city of Valpo's YMCA summer league youth teams.
Quote from: valpo64 on June 13, 2021, 10:25:49 AM
The list isn't as bad...no, it is worse. It is a great list for naming the city of Valpo's YMCA summer league youth teams.
I missed your suggestion. Please enlighten us!
I enjoyed listening to Paul's discussion of the proposed finalists list on Union Street Hoops, but the most obvious and most revealing point seemed to be that during an hour of conversation three avid followers of Valpo sports could not muster much enthusiasm at all for the suggestions. There should have been a ninth option on the list: None of the Above, Go Back to the Drawing Board! It just seems again that by presenting such a lackluster list the university is squandering another opportunity to engender energy and excitement for the athletics program, just as they did in the years following the Sweet Sixteen run and more recently when they joined the MVC.
If nothing else, the Mascot Committee has provided a ton of comedy material. The Lightning Hawks? Tempest? I haven't had a laugh that good in awhile.
This is like watching a movie you never want to end. I can only hope they go back to the drawing board for eight more "fresh, inspired, and improved" ideas.
I was reading yesterday's NWI Times, and I was shocked to see an ad for this Valpo business:
https://crusaderhomes.com/
Someone needs to woke these people up!
Quote from: wh on June 11, 2021, 06:27:23 PM
Quote from: Chairback on June 11, 2021, 10:16:06 AM
The shield symbol is already tied and recognizable to Valpo. Just keep the symbol and dump the nickname. Save some considerable cash doing this also.
I agree some of them sound like WNBA names or car brands.
It still boggles the mind that the (interim) leader of this university supported this boondoggle during a financial calamity. Just call it children's hour at Valpo U. BTW, with rare exception women are terrible business leaders - way too emotional and insecure.
A boondoggle is a project that is considered a waste of both time and money, yet is often continued due to extraneous policy or political motivations. Wikipedia
Say what you want about the mascot, the choices, or the process, but cut out the sexism.
Thanks.
Quote from: valpo04 on June 14, 2021, 06:32:42 AM
Quote from: wh on June 11, 2021, 06:27:23 PM
Quote from: Chairback on June 11, 2021, 10:16:06 AM
The shield symbol is already tied and recognizable to Valpo. Just keep the symbol and dump the nickname. Save some considerable cash doing this also.
I agree some of them sound like WNBA names or car brands.
It still boggles the mind that the (interim) leader of this university supported this boondoggle during a financial calamity. Just call it children's hour at Valpo U. BTW, with rare exception women are terrible business leaders - way too emotional and insecure.
A boondoggle is a project that is considered a waste of both time and money, yet is often continued due to extraneous policy or political motivations. Wikipedia
Say what you want about the mascot, the choices, or the process, but cut out the sexism.
Thanks.
It isn't sexist; it's a fact. Read some Jordan Peterson and educate yourself. Let me guess. Someone threatened you, didn't they? I'll play the game, so you don't get your board "cancelled."
My prediction is that it will be either the Beacons or the Dunehawks. The former is bland and inoffensive, yet it would be fairly easy to keep the V-shield logo. In addition, it ties well to the university motto and has been used for the yearbook title since 1941.
Dunehawks is unique and does have some ties to the region. However, it would be a very different logo and have no ties to the university.
If I had to guess, the team name will be the Beacons; the mascot might be the fictional dunehawk, carrying the shield. This would be like the Alabama Crimson Tide and the Big Al elephant mascot.
I actually quite like the beacons as a name with an image of the dunehawk carrying the shield (see one of Paul Oren's retweets for a great design mock up). The only thing I would add to that mockup would be rays of light streaming from behind the hawk and shield, hence tying it to a beacon.
The mascot name could be Beaky the Beacon.
Quote from: vu72 on June 12, 2021, 08:39:50 AM
I have no horse in the race. It's a MASCOT!!! The figure running around at basketball games doesn't have to have anything to do with the name. So if we are "The Gold" we could have a person dressed up as a lightning bolt if we wanted to. Witness Alabama, who are the "Crimson Tide" but have an elephant running around.
Nobody outside of the alumni base or those is NW Indiana know us as the Crusaders. We are Valpo.
Just to try to put this all in perspective, consider some examples:
Harvard is "The Crimson" yet their mascot is John Harvard
Stanford is "The Cardinal" yet their mascot is a Tree
Michigan is "The Wolverines" yet they have no mascot.
Tulane is "The Green Wave" but have been fighting over what or who the mascot should be for decades.
North Texas is "The Mean Green" yet their mascot is Scrappy the Eagle.
I rest my brain cells.
Xavier University has two mascots. The musketeer (obvious), and a fuzzy blue blob. I call the blue blob "Cugot". Get it? "Xavier Cugot". (Rimshot). Ok I guess you have to be over a certain age to know who he was. I'll be here all week.
Quote from: VUSERF on June 14, 2021, 10:15:20 AMI actually quite like the beacons as a name with an image of the dunehawk carrying the shield (see one of Paul Oren's retweets for a great design mock up). The only thing I would add to that mockup would be rays of light streaming from behind the hawk and shield, hence tying it to a beacon. The mascot name could be Beaky the Beacon.
I really really hate the name Beacons... I mean, I get that it fits with the Universities desired image, but for Athletics, just not powerful or something I feel teams can rally around.
I know I have stated my like for the name Gold before (partly because I think I was the first to suggest it many months ago, so obviously biased here). And someone said above they hope the University doesn't take the easy way out with Gold. But I think the easy way out is the best of all solutions presented. I don't want to be a made up bird, a weather related name, or a lame feel good name. Gold is a "strong" name, not offensive (not yet atleast), keeps with school tradition/history and still has the ability to use whatever mascot you want to go along with it. Sure it may be the easy way out and not super flashy and innovative. It's simple, that's why its good.
What actually is a Dune Hawk?
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 14, 2021, 12:02:17 PM
What actually is a Dune Hawk?
Same family as the Lightning Hawk!!!
Quote from: valpopal on June 13, 2021, 06:04:54 PMI enjoyed listening to Paul's discussion of the proposed finalists list on Union Street Hoops, but the most obvious and most revealing point seemed to be that during an hour of conversation three avid followers of Valpo sports could not muster much enthusiasm at all for the suggestions. There should have been a ninth option on the list: None of the Above, Go Back to the Drawing Board! It just seems again that by presenting such a lackluster list the university is squandering another opportunity to engender energy and excitement for the athletics program, just as they did in the years following the Sweet Sixteen run and more recently when they joined the MVC.
I just got done listening to the episode. There was no enthusiasm whatsoever, which is understandable giving the underwhelming choices presented by the committee. I would prefer something like the Golden Knights so that VU doesn't have to get rid of the current logo. All I ever hear is that there isn't enough money to modernize facilities, so I'd like to see them save some money here and go with a safe, simple choice.
I like LaBarbera. He is very polite and wise, but I really hope he is seething under the surface at these names.
If we're hellbent to go with a weather name and the committee fears that "Snowflakes" would offend someone,.....how about the Valpo Blizzard? But it kind of makes me hungry and maybe Culvers could balk at it.
Thanks to all who listened to my podcast (Jack Vita Show) episode on Valpo team names and mascots. It's a bummer none of the names on our list are being considered, but I wasn't really expecting anything different. I won't be covering the Valpo mascot search on my show. I have instead been focusing on covering baseball, and actually just had former Marlin and ESPN's Baseball Tonight analyst Orestes Destrade on last week.
However, Paul Oren is doing a great job with his show, "Union Street Hoops" and he's been all over it. In the latest episode, I joined him, along with former Valparaiso communication professor and VU grad Andrew Stem, to discuss all of the names that are currently in the running. We'll also be recording an episode of Union Street Hoops whenever a new name and mascot is selected. I hope you will join us to continue the conversation!
Thanks again to all who tuned in, and have since weighed in on the conversation. Even to those that disagree with my vision for the university and perhaps didn't enjoy my podcast episode - I greatly appreciate your unique perspective and feedback and am thankful that you would take time out of your day to view or listen to my show. I have enjoyed reading some of the disagreements people have with me in this thread, and always welcome and enjoy a friendly and healthy exchanging of ideas!
Quote from: VUSERF on June 14, 2021, 10:15:20 AM
I actually quite like the beacons as a name with an image of the dunehawk carrying the shield (see one of Paul Oren's retweets for a great design mock up). The only thing I would add to that mockup would be rays of light streaming from behind the hawk and shield, hence tying it to a beacon.
The mascot name could be Beaky the Beacon.
I forget, are you the poster who wanted Captain Kernel or something like that? You sure do like your mascots... ;)
Quote from: VUSERF on June 14, 2021, 10:15:20 AM
I actually quite like the beacons as a name with an image of the dunehawk carrying the shield (see one of Paul Oren's retweets for a great design mock up). The only thing I would add to that mockup would be rays of light streaming from behind the hawk and shield, hence tying it to a beacon.
The mascot name could be Beaky the Beacon.
Too bad for everyone involved the picture you're referring to is of an eagle, and not a hawk. SMH.
Will be embarrassing if we call ourselves some kind of hawk and then use imagery featuring an eagle.
The PC Poltroons
Swaying to and fro to every wind of woke doctrine.
You could even incorporate the name "Sparks" into the mascot and show sparks coming out of his a...i mean tail. The look would be very fitting for this whole process.
Can you guys move this pissing contest to the off topic section so I don't miss poor 64's rant on the actual topic.
Quote from: valpo64 on June 15, 2021, 11:14:11 AM
You could even incorporate the name "Sparks" into the mascot and show sparks coming out of his a...i mean tail. The look would be very fitting for this whole process.
Introducing Sparky!!!
The Golden Dunehawk that perches on a Beacon. Protector of the Tempest Dunelands. No thunder too loud, lighting too bright, storm too rough can intimidate Sparky :thumbsup:
We got this covered Valpo!
That's our new logo. A Dunehawk perched on a beacon that shines a light of guidance through a stormy tempest lightning storm with sparks in the background.
Brown Bird.
Gold Light.
Gray Sky.
Gold lighting.
Done!!!
This conversation is over! Now we can focus on our next task and that is to get alcohol sold at the ARC. :cheers:
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 15, 2021, 01:21:54 PM
Can you guys move this pissing contest to the off topic section so I don't miss poor 64's rant on the actual topic.
I have cleaned up this thread and moved that discussion here: https://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=3963.0
I did not really like the popcorn themed mascots. I felt they were ...wait for it ... too corny.
My preferences were the Valpo Shield, the Vanguard, or the Dunehawks. Dunehawks being my least favorite of the three.
Beacons can work, maybe, but I am having some issues with the imagery. I love the name and what it represents to the university, but I can't picture it. All I visualize is a lighthouse?
As for the eagle / hawk mixup I agree. Definitely need to be a head imagery over an eagle. I just really thought the general image looked striking and marketable.
If they selected beacon what so you all think it would look like? Just a flame?
Quote from: VUSERF on June 16, 2021, 09:08:39 AM
If they selected beacon what so you all think it would look like? Just a flame?
Perhaps something line the Bat-Signal projecting the shield logo instead of the bat.
Quote from: humbleopinion on June 16, 2021, 09:15:46 AMIf they selected beacon what so you all think it would look like? Just a flame?
https://www.umb.edu/news/detail/bobby_the_beacon_to_graduate_friday
Quote from: vu72 on June 16, 2021, 09:53:06 AMQuote from: humbleopinion on June 16, 2021, 09:15:46 AMIf they selected beacon what so you all think it would look like? Just a flame?
https://www.umb.edu/news/detail/bobby_the_beacon_to_graduate_friday
A lighthouse makes the most sense for the Beacon... but while that makes sense for Boston, not so much for landlocked Valpo. I guess you can make the case for our proximity to Lake Michigan, but I find that a stretch, along with why I'm not a huge fan of Dune Hawks (apart from the fact that its just a made up bird)
A Flame logo would probably be the choice if Valpo went with Beacon...
I was thinking about my Strato-o-matic baseball league, and my team was the Vomit Pigs. Seriously, it's better than the Beacon.
honestly, I cannot believe we are having this conversation.
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 16, 2021, 06:35:42 PM
I was thinking about my Strato-o-matic baseball league, and my team was the Vomit Pigs. Seriously, it's better than the Beacon.
honestly, I cannot believe we are having this conversation.
Ever play Statis Pro Baseball? I grew up on that game.
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 16, 2021, 06:35:42 PMI was thinking about my Strato-o-matic baseball league, and my team was the Vomit Pigs. Seriously, it's better than the Beacon. honestly, I cannot believe we are having this conversation.
I can say, I too would rather be the Vomit Pigs than I would the Beacon(s)
Instead of Beacon, why not the Valparaiso Guiding Light?
We can be the official team the soap opera (and off-season transfer soap operas too.)
Quote from: vuny98 on June 16, 2021, 07:08:24 PMQuote from: usc4valpo on Today at 06:35:42 PM I was thinking about my Strato-o-matic baseball league, and my team was the Vomit Pigs. Seriously, it's better than the Beacon. honestly, I cannot believe we are having this conversation. I can say, I too would rather be the Vomit Pigs than I would the Beacon(s)
Fart Buffaloes > Vomit Pigs
Quote from: Pgmado on June 16, 2021, 06:44:10 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 16, 2021, 06:35:42 PM
I was thinking about my Strato-o-matic baseball league, and my team was the Vomit Pigs. Seriously, it's better than the Beacon.
honestly, I cannot believe we are having this conversation.
Ever play Statis Pro Baseball? I grew up on that game.
Loved Statis Pro Baseball. I also had their USAC/Indy Car game.
https://acsyracuse.com/pages/vote
Thought you might get a kick at how a new lower level pro soccer team is choosing its mascot. A team in Chicago (same league) did something similar but they had an NCAA like 68 name bracket. No guarantee it ends up with a great name as they picked Chicago House FC.
The "Vomit pigs" name does offer alliteration with Valparaiso or Valpo
Just don't do anything with Hawks in it. Hawks is one of the blandest, most overused nicknames in sports. Zero uniqueness. Slapping a "Dune" in front of it like UMass Lowell RiverHawks doesn't change that.
The options aren't great, but Storm and Lightning at least aren't terrible. I could get behind those.
Little Badgers
Is the University perhaps going to miss out on some other good mascot options because they are trying to shoehorn a regional tie to the nickname? I mean, I'm not saying the current options are bad, but I think something seemingly "out of nowhere" could actually turn out just as good. For example, when Amherst changed their name from Lord Jeffs to Mammoths, there was only a slight tie as a local museum happens to have a mammoth. But, that's a good mascot! Or like the Campbell Camels or Tulsa Golden Hurricane, etc. So, why not something like the Koalas? Or Rhinos? Or Werewolves or Centaurs?
Quote from: Valpower on July 03, 2021, 02:26:47 AM
Quote from: Just Sayin on June 29, 2021, 06:44:50 PM
Little Badgers
Dunebadgers?
Dune Badger Knights? Doesn't that cover all the bases? location, animal, use of shield (no, mythical element though ;-))
Mr. Basketball All-Stars
Per this morning's Presidential town hall. The name has been chosen but won't be released until mid August.
Oh good lord just release it already. Based on the finalists and reaction here and elsewhere nobody's gonna like it anyway so might as well pull the band aid off.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on July 13, 2021, 09:59:27 AM
Oh good lord just release it already. Based on the finalists and reaction here and elsewhere nobody's gonna like it anyway so might as well pull the band aid off.
As well as the process followed, which intentionally avoided getting feedback that didn't confirm what they wanted and addressing concerns of key stakeholders. This has not been a good example of change management.
Just had another mascot discussion with my wife and she brought up something interesting that I did not consider before.
She really likes Valpo Storm, and she convinced me by describing the imagery. If we stick with the name Valpo storm we have the ability to make a unique mascot that is related to the storm but doesn't have to be a cloud.
She suggested a Thor/ Valkyrie holding the Shield of Character.
I actually really like this.
This why I really wished that the committee would have incorporated some kind of concept art for their finalists.
Yeah it's hard without concept art but hte reality is no committee was going to come up with good concept art, you're gonna want real professionals working on that. The reasoning that President Padilla gave for knowing the mascot but not releasing it yet during one of his alum townhalls was that he wants to do a real professional reveal with art work and such all ready to go. Which makes sense for sure. You're still gonna have people upset, much as there was during the last rebrand of the Crusader, but at least you give people something to wrap their heads around.
I have started to lean more towards the tempest/storm because of the larger options for branding and how well; I think it could integrate with the game day atmosphere.
I also think that you don't even have to always have somone carry the shield. I can imagine a lightening strike on the ground that leaves the Shield burned into the ground or something of that nature, although I do love the Valkaryie image
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/84/e4/b484e43e3735c083c9718345e0fce568.png
Quote from: IndyValpo on July 13, 2021, 09:32:45 AM
Per this morning's Presidential town hall. The name has been chosen but won't be released until mid August.
Just to add the President said that the "art" was being finalized.
Came across this logo for a "Dune"Hawk. Best one I have seen in a while! The wings can represent a "V" and the colors work for Valpo.
https://pin.it/2W2NXnT
Has anyone heard a whisper of the likely name? I'm expecting it won't be official, yet I'd be surprised if someone hasn't heard something...
Quote from: valpo95 on July 23, 2021, 02:21:00 PM
Has anyone heard a whisper of the likely name? I'm expecting it won't be official, yet I'd be surprised if someone hasn't heard something...
https://www.speakpipe.com/voice-recorder/msg/u8wgsldgqmkzglih
Tomorrow is the day.....what will we be
https://twitter.com/ValpoU/status/1424747301399052307
Quote from: VUBBFan on August 09, 2021, 10:59:14 AMhttps://twitter.com/ValpoU/status/1424747301399052307
Just a guess, but as Eron says "we are..." the screen turns a Gold color... I think Valpo Gold it is... but we will see.
Unless they knock the logos out of the park, it's probably going to be underwhelming.
https://twitter.com/ValpoU/status/1425121007585566722
I kind of like the Beacons. Good to go with a nickname that has a connection to VU. Plus it doesn't lock us into a mascot, so Paul Oren's dream of the koala lives on.
Not bad! Now we can pursue our chosen crusades from stationary positions. ;)
Not a fan.
Particularly of the idea that Valpo is now meant to be a beacon for "change."
For what types of "change" is the university now to be considered a beacon of?
And what types of "change" should our society as a whole undergo, as determined by the university's current leadership group?
Very unfortunately, this messaging does cross the line into social justice politics, and therefore, the messaging itself and this choice of a nickname likely does not represent the majority of the Valparaiso community.
The decision makers were intent on being "inoffensive" and "inclusive," but have now perhaps marginalized the majority, albeit to a small degree.
I would have highly preferred something completely neutral, such as Dune Hawks or Gold.
My initial reactions to the news are mixed. Like any name chosen to be safe and harmless, the nickname is somewhat bland as well. The video announcement was excellent for its first 30 seconds during which it focused on the history of VU and its connection to the symbol of light. It should have stopped when the president says "We are Valpo, We are Beacons"; however, the last half of the video with everyone stating "We are Beacons" into the camera seemed like the old propaganda trick of repeating something often enough that all will accept it.
As a visual artist, I think the logo is pretty bad and pedestrian, and we probably could have gotten a better example from a middle school art class. Concerning the mascot: its absence is noticeable, and the lack of originality in the logo gives me pause about what we will see; if there is a beacon as a mascot, will it merely look like a horrible human-sized chess piece as at the University of Massachusetts-Boston?
For now from a practical standpoint, I do not see me replacing my Crusader apparel for attending games.
Beacons. I'm good with it. If the teams succeed on and off the field, this controversy will subside. I don't understand the fealty to Crusaders. It has always been Valpo as the name brand and the mascot name has meant comparatively little. And think about it, for example: Had favorite baseball teams now decided to change their names to the "Cubs," "Cardinals," and "White Sox," can you imagine the furor over such "nothing" team names? ("What, you're naming my team after a pair of tube socks??? I want my Chicago Redskins back!!!!") ;)
The name is fine - Go Beamin' Beacons!
Anyways, the logo makes me sad.
As I was never a fan of Crusaders, Beacons is fine with me.
I can get on board with Beacon. Its not great, but could definitely have been worse.
What I can't get on board with is the logo. Looks like a failed project from an Intro to Graphic Design class.
A very interesting take from Chris Sparks who is a former basketball player and former Valpo Basketball assistant coach. He's still plugged into college basketball and does a lot of broadcasting.
He thinks the switch from Crusaders to Beacons will hurt Valpo in recruiting.
https://twitter.com/coachsparks5/status/1425145958069850112?s=21
Quote from: VU2014 on August 10, 2021, 12:33:08 PMHe thinks the switch from Beacons to Crusader will hurt Valpo in recruiting
I think winning will help overcome that issue. Also, we need the ARC to be packed and raucous as it was about 10 years ago.
Quote from: jtm on August 10, 2021, 12:11:23 PM
The name is fine - Go Beamin' Beacons!
Anyways, the logo makes me sad.
Won't that be confusing if we play Wake Forest?
I don't hate the name, but I do hate the logo. A colleague of mine, who is a graphic designer at another university in Indiana, gave a concise opinion about it that I tend to agree with: "This doesn't seem like an athletics team logo. It gives me a summer camp vibe."
I'm not especially concerned with the logo. I think we can expect to see the Valpo Shield used just about everywhere, and a variety of lighthouse logos used in the background.
Quote from: valpo95 on August 10, 2021, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: jtm on August 10, 2021, 12:11:23 PM
The name is fine - Go Beamin' Beacons!
Anyways, the logo makes me sad.
Won't that be confusing if we play Wake Forest?
That's the joke.
Quote from: swiftmutiny on August 10, 2021, 01:27:41 PM
I don't hate the name, but I do hate the logo. A colleague of mine, who is a graphic designer at another university in Indiana, gave a concise opinion about it that I tend to agree with: "This doesn't seem like an athletics team logo. It gives me a summer camp vibe."
As I noted previously, the logo is horrible. From a visual artist's standpoint, there are a number of technical problems, and it appears at best to be merely a first draft that was drawn on the back of a cocktail napkin. I don't understand why the logo couldn't remain the flame embedded in a "V" that seems very popular. The dictionary definition for "beacon": "a fire or light set up in a high or prominent position as a warning, signal, or celebration." This would fit the flame logo we already have and that coincides with a real identifiable part of campus rather than the fictional lighthouse beacon.
Quote from: VU2014 on August 10, 2021, 12:33:08 PM
A very interesting take from Chris Sparks who is a former basketball player and former Valpo Basketball assistant coach. He's still plugged into college basketball and does a lot of broadcasting.
He thinks the switch from Beacons to Crusader will hurt Valpo in recruiting.
https://twitter.com/coachsparks5/status/1425145958069850112?s=21
Im sure you meant the other way around. He is obviously wrong when he says "its hard enough to recruit to Valpo". All we have is three Mr. Basketball on the roster. He is also wrong about nobody from athletics being involved in the decision as both Mark LaBarbara and Eron Gordon were on the Committee.
Quote from: VU2014 on August 10, 2021, 12:33:08 PM
A very interesting take from Chris Sparks who is a former basketball player and former Valpo Basketball assistant coach. He's still plugged into college basketball and does a lot of broadcasting.
He thinks the switch from Beacons to Crusader will hurt Valpo in recruiting.
https://twitter.com/coachsparks5/status/1425145958069850112?s=21
I respect Sparks but this may be the dumbest post in the history of Twitter. Perhaps an overstatement but still dumb.
I like the name and how it works with the school mission and Lutheran heritage. However, it is going to take sometime for me to get use to it as a sports reference/nickname, it just sounds very clumsy. Not really a fan of Beacon for change, that is not part of the university mission in my opinion, it should be more of a Beacon of truth. I also think they could have come up with much better artwork that included the flame.
I'm concerned that at some point in the not too distant future, the nickname "Beacons" will have to be changed, as well, because of some finding it offensive.
Associating light in juxtaposition to darkness generally with all that is good? Even today, many would argue this has racist connotations.
Publications as highly trafficked as The Huffington Post have recently featured articles condemning these types of associations as racist.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/common-words-phrases-racist-origins-connotations_l_5efcfb63c5b6ca9709188c83
https://www.teachingtraveling.com/metaphor-darkness-as-bad/
Really a poor choice by the decision-makers if their intent was for the new nickname/mascot to be considered inoffensive and inclusive in perpetuity.
After all, the university's blatant association of light with "good" and dark with "bad" serves to reinforce peoples' racist and implicit biases. There's actually a good bit of science to back up the idea.
https://theconversation.com/how-did-white-become-a-metaphor-for-all-things-good-140674
Beacons "guide us through the darkness," as the rollout video says? That's not going to work for very much longer, folks.
The groundwork has already been laid. Just give it a little more time.
Quote from: FWalum on August 10, 2021, 02:31:19 PM
I like the name and how it works with the school mission and Lutheran heritage. However, it is going to take sometime for me to get use to it as a sports reference/nickname, it just sounds very clumsy. Not really a fan of Beacon for change, that is not part of the university mission in my opinion, it should be more of a Beacon of truth. I also think they could have come up with much better artwork that included the flame.
The "Beacon of truth" idea would have been solid.
[tweet]1425149414277099523[/tweet]
Seriously, this is awful. Can you really imagine this on fan apparel or uniforms? Keep the name "Beacons" if you want, but ditch the logo quickly. Keep the shield logo with the flame embedded in a "V" that everyone seems to like. This isn't difficult and would be popular. Did they even test this lighthouse logo against the shield flame logo with a sample audience? The dictionary definition for "beacon": "a fire or light set up in a high or prominent position as a warning, signal, or celebration." The definition fits the flame logo we already have and that coincides with a prominent identifiable structure at the entrance of campus rather than a generic fictional lighthouse.
Yeah it really seems the lighthouse is the weak link in this. Especially since there is a flame embedded in the shield. Couldn't you just figure out a way to like, pull that flame design out. Than you could do a nice combo of beacon and shield coming together. Also a shield and a torch feel intimidating enough if you don't do another mascot.
Quote from: valpopal on August 10, 2021, 02:51:43 PM
[tweet]1425149414277099523[/tweet]
Seriously, this is awful. Can you really imagine this on fan apparel or uniforms? Keep the name "Beacons" if you want, but ditch the logo quickly. Keep the shield logo with the flame embedded in a "V" that everyone seems to like. This isn't difficult and would be popular. Did they even test this lighthouse logo against the shield flame logo with a sample audience? The dictionary definition for "beacon": "a fire or light set up in a high or prominent position as a warning, signal, or celebration." The definition fits the flame logo we already have and that coincides with a prominent identifiable structure at the entrance of campus rather than a generic fictional lighthouse.
Looks more like the light of surrender.
Quote from: JBC1824 on August 10, 2021, 02:38:20 PM
I'm concerned that at some point in the not too distant future, the nickname "Beacons" will have to be changed, as well, because of some finding it offensive.
Associating light in juxtaposition to darkness generally with all that is good? Even today, many would argue this has racist connotations.
Publications as highly trafficked as The Huffington Post have recently featured articles condemning these types of associations as racist.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/common-words-phrases-racist-origins-connotations_l_5efcfb63c5b6ca9709188c83
https://www.teachingtraveling.com/metaphor-darkness-as-bad/
Really a poor choice by the decision-makers if their intent was for the new nickname/mascot to be considered inoffensive and inclusive in perpetuity.
After all, the university's blatant association of light with "good" and dark with "bad" serves to reinforce peoples' racist and implicit biases. There's actually a good bit of science to back up the idea.
https://theconversation.com/how-did-white-become-a-metaphor-for-all-things-good-140674
Beacons "guide us through the darkness," as the rollout video says? That's not going to work for very much longer, folks.
The groundwork has already been laid. Just give it a little more time.
I John 1:5 God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all.
This woke stuff is beyond ridiculous and is ruining this country - if we continue to let it.
Paul
I wish this whole "Beacon" name change and logo was a joke, but sadly it is not. It certainly feels and looks like a big joke. Absolutely terrible and downright embarrassing for the university and alumni. The leadership at Valpo should be ashamed at what they've done. I'm sure they also paid greatly to some marketing company for this, which is equally as shocking. They should demand a refund.
Quote from: valpopal on August 10, 2021, 02:51:43 PMDid they even test this lighthouse logo against the shield flame logo with a sample audience? T
The Shield will remain as part of Valpo branding.
This is part of the announcement on the athletics website:
Many of Valpo's marks and logos, including its colors and the "Shield of Character," will remain part of the University's brand.
Quote from: vu72 on August 10, 2021, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: valpopal on August 10, 2021, 02:51:43 PMDid they even test this lighthouse logo against the shield flame logo with a sample audience? T
The Shield will remain as part of Valpo branding.
This is part of the announcement on the athletics website:
Many of Valpo's marks and logos, including its colors and the "Shield of Character," will remain part of the University's brand.
I know it will remain "part" of the Valpo branding. My point was that it should be used in all cases instead of the terrible lighthouse logo.
Here is the Times article:
https://www.nwitimes.com/news/update-vu-mens-hoops-coach-matt-lottich-says-move-to-beacons-right-decision-at-right/article_dd770c51-fe99-5d89-bcdf-d8e049f2a5fb.html?fbclid=IwAR1BWPfKVgnijAznjY964VeMoKZRYRZsTvbaHb5RmD6Tvl-1WUXANozS0WM#tracking-source=home-breaking
The positive - I still have a lot of crusader gear
The negative - it doesn't fit anymore....
I like the beacons as a nickname. Great way to embody the mission of the university.
I had been worried about the artwork associated with this name in previous posts. They should stick with the shield of character and the torch as images and not introduce another.
If they had done this, this would have been a solid, smooth layup finish (not quite a slam dunk).
It looks like a dunce hat.
I keep seeing a chess piece.
Farleigh Dickinson University -esque
Go Beamin' Beacons!!!!!
Quote from: VUSERF on August 10, 2021, 06:43:00 PM
I keep seeing a chess piece.
Farleigh Dickinson University -esque
A cross between the queen on a chess board and the Eye of Mordor searching for the ring bearer.
Why not change the color scheme too? I know yellow and brown is unique, but with the lighthouse logo it just looks awful. The "V" with the flame isn't bad, but if you're going to make changes, I would have started with getting rid of the brown and then moved onto the mascot.
So now we live with this stupid nickname. It is a disgrace IMO. Of course what can you expect when the decision was made by a committee, who for the most part, the members were unqualified, should not have been chosen to serve on it in the first place. The committee then compiles a final list of very poor options and what do you get, a very poor final choice.
The artwork/logo shown on the t-shirt looks like a YMCA summer day-camp shirt. I would be embarrassed to wear it. Of course that will never happen. Even though my wife and I are proud graduates of Valpo, this choice is a disgrace in our opinion. You will never hear me say I am a proud Beacon!
It is unconceivable to me that the name chosen is also the name of our yearbook and a dorm...unbelievable.
There are two other schools with the Beacon nickname. Bushnell, a NAIA school in Eugene Oregon uses a torch laid over a B. U Mass Boston a D3 also uses a lighthouse which for some reason shows light beaming out both sides like a cartoon mustache.
WOW! We are in great company!
Quote from: valpo64 on August 10, 2021, 08:19:15 PM
So now we live with this stupid nickname. It is a disgrace IMO. Of course what can you expect when the decision was made by a committee, who for the most part, the members were unqualified, should not have been chosen to serve on it in the first place. The committee then compiles a final list of very poor options and what do you get, a very poor final choice.
The artwork/logo shown on the t-shirt looks like a YMCA summer day-camp shirt. I would be embarrassed to wear it. Of course that will never happen. Even though my wife and I are proud graduates of Valpo, this choice is a disgrace in our opinion. You will never hear me say I am a proud
It is unconceivable to me that the name chosen is also the name of our yearbook and a dorm...unbelievable.
I don't know. The "Alpo Bacon" might be very appealing to my dog, if I had a dog, which I don't at the moment. 🐶🥓
Quote from: valpo64 on August 10, 2021, 08:19:15 PM
So now we live with this stupid nickname. It is a disgrace IMO. Of course what can you expect when the decision was made by a committee, who for the most part, the members were unqualified, should not have been chosen to serve on it in the first place. The committee then compiles a final list of very poor options and what do you get, a very poor final choice.
The artwork/logo shown on the t-shirt looks like a YMCA summer day-camp shirt. I would be embarrassed to wear it. Of course that will never happen. Even though my wife and I are proud graduates of Valpo, this choice is a disgrace in our opinion. You will never hear me say I am a proud Beacon!
It is unconceivable to me that the name chosen is also the name of our yearbook and a dorm...unbelievable.
The nickname before Crusaders was the Uhlan, the same name at the time as the...yearbook.
I agree with Chris Sparks' general sentiment. For any athlete, when you find out that your mascot is the Beacons, your first reaction will be something akin to, 'what the f..?' Watch out everyone, here come the mighty Beacons! You better be careful, otherwise we will have to shine our light of character on you! Fans chanting, 'shine our light on thee,' as we need that crucial basket. Holy crap, I can just imagine opposing fans and the taunts that our teams will receive. I would have taken Gold over Beacons, and I hated Gold. At least Dune Hawks sounded somewhat cool, and somewhat mighty.
Now comes the interesting part for Valpo. Does the university fully invest into this new image and plaster the lighthouse all over campus. Do we start to see the lighthouse on banners, sweatshirts and the center of the ARC floor? Does ESPN use the logo on its website and on TV? How invested will the university be with this new image of the Beacon. Or does Valpo continue to promote and invest in the shield as the current university logo seen throughout campus. Will the shield still be centerstage like the I at the University of Illinois, the B at Bradley, and the crest at Harvard. Will the university be called the Beacons with an image of Valpo and the shield or will the shield be taken over by the Beacon? Remember the shield is Valpo's logo, the Beacon is just a nickname.....or is it.....
I have seen better logos for beer league softball teams. Surely they can do better than this!
Quote from: valpotx on August 11, 2021, 03:40:56 AM
I agree with Chris Sparks' general sentiment. For any athlete, when you find out that your mascot is the Beacons, your first reaction will be something akin to, 'what the f..?' Watch out everyone, here come the mighty Beacons! You better be careful, otherwise we will have to shine our light of character on you! Fans chanting, 'shine our light on thee,' as we need that crucial basket. Holy crap, I can just imagine opposing fans and the taunts that our teams will receive. I would have taken Gold over Beacons, and I hated Gold. At least Dune Hawks sounded somewhat cool, and somewhat mighty.
Oh come on! If this were true imagine how kids feel about the mascot being a nut!(Ohio State) Or how about just a color?(The Crimson of Harvard) It's a mascot! You can pick all sorts of issues with LOTS of mascots unless you put them where they belong. Just a name, not intended to offend or amuse, or scare or intimidate, or anything else. Everybody just relax. Too much time on our hands. Sports start again in less than a month. It can't come soon enough. Sorry for the rant tx!!
Quote from: valpo95 on August 10, 2021, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: jtm on August 10, 2021, 12:11:23 PM
The name is fine - Go Beamin' Beacons!
Anyways, the logo makes me sad.
Won't that be confusing if we play Wake Forest?
Freakin Beacon Deacon meetin on the hardwood
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Let's see....the fight song: "Hail Beacons.......You should have seen the ridiculous reply I received form the University after I replied to the notice from Pres. Padilla. It was so sweet and flowery that it almost made me cry. :(
Quote from: valpo64 on August 11, 2021, 01:38:29 PM
Let's see....the fight song: "Hail Beacons.......You should have seen the ridiculous reply I received form the University after I replied to the notice from Pres. Padilla. It was so sweet and flowery that it almost made me cry. :(
What notice from President Padilla? I must have been removed from the ValpoU email list? Interesting.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
Maybe it was an Alumni mailing with his message. The reply to my words was very moving, in fact I headed to the bathroom after I read it.
The Beacons name is kinda lame. But I like the idea of the lighthouse logo (although it can be cleaned up a bit aesthetically). I was hoping for a different name but it's not the worst.
At least my name isn't going to be offensive to others. That's the most important thing.
Plus, let's be honest, there are a lot of terrible college nicknames out there. Sycamores is a terrible name. Boilermakers is a terrible name, we are just so used to it because of the history of the program but I know several friends from other states who consider it among the worst in sports. Other schools are called the banana slugs, the okra, camels, Penguins, shockers, and retrievers. So, it could be worse. In three months, no one is even going to care. It's going to be about basketball, not the nickname.
At first glance, the lighthouse looks like a salt shaker. Looking at it closer, why is the lighthouse in wastewater? Can there be lighthouses on land? Will the university build a lighthouse on campus?
Nicknames are for athletics. As long as the school continues to think of athletics as a necessary evil, we're just wasting key strokes.
Valpo's Long John Silvers has a Beacon on top of it. So we do have one in town.
Quote from: Vinny on August 11, 2021, 02:14:59 PM
At first glance, the lighthouse looks like a salt shaker. Looking at it closer, why is the lighthouse in wastewater? Can there be lighthouses on land? Will the university build a lighthouse on campus?
Nicknames are for athletics. As long as the school continues to think of athletics as a necessary evil, we're just wasting key strokes.
The latter part of your statement is 1000% correct. The concept for the nickname was flawed because some people in the administration (like the AD) wanted the nickname to make some larger statement about the University's religious history, etc.... I don't understand why they were so focused on the religious history in the first place, that's what got us entangled in the Crusader drama. The nickname should have been solely based on what sounds cool in an athletic setting.
You are also correct on the University's poor history of supporting athletic programs. I have heard that Padilla may be different because of his propensity as a sports fan. Let's hope so. The fact that we have not been able to build a new basketball stadium is disgraceful. I think the AD is also partially to blame. He cut soccer, which was one of our most successful sports and also a sport that brought in students from across the globe. That was a very poor decision. I understand budget constraints forced some tough decisions, but there were other programs that were better choices to be cut than soccer, especially since it was one of the few programs where we actually beat top 25 ranked schools and given the fact that soccer is one of the fastest growing sports in the country (and very popular in NWI). Similarly, if you go to any mall within 15 miles, you hardly ever see Valpo gear, but you see Northern Illinois, Western Michigan, Indiana state, and several other programs. This is also due to a lack of sports branding by the University. Let's hope Padilla and the athletic department are more forward thinking in the future.
Quote from: mp91 on August 11, 2021, 02:40:40 PMgiven the fact that soccer is one of the fastest growing sports in the country
I've been hearing that ever since 1965 when I was in the 5th grade. Soccer is a niche sport in the American landscape, nothing more.
Paul
Quote from: valpo64 on August 11, 2021, 01:38:29 PM
Let's see....the fight song: "Hail Beacons.......You should have seen the ridiculous reply I received form the University after I replied to the notice from Pres. Padilla. It was so sweet and flowery that it almost made me cry. :(
"Hail Crusaders" can easily be replaced with"Valparaiso" -- the accents are the same.
Quote from: 78crusader on August 11, 2021, 04:07:45 PM
Quote from: mp91 on August 11, 2021, 02:40:40 PMgiven the fact that soccer is one of the fastest growing sports in the country
I've been hearing that ever since 1965 when I was in the 5th grade. Soccer is a niche sport in the American landscape, nothing more.
Paul
Depends on what you consider a niche sport. Do you consider hockey a niche?
MLS interest grew 27% between 2012 and 2019 (and likely more since). MLS team evaluations are skyrocketing. Soccer is the third most played team sport in America. Some recent polling showed 7% of Americans answered soccer as their favorite sport, baseball was 9%. Sure, it's not as popular as football and basketball and probably never will be. Soccer tends to be more popular with younger generations, so to some it may not seem as popular as it is. But, do some research and you'll see just how much the sport has grown.(Also, pretty sure the sport has grown every decade since 1965, so maybe all those people telling you that were right).
Quote from: mp91 on August 11, 2021, 02:40:40 PMI think the AD is also partially to blame. He cut soccer, which was one of our most successful sports and also a sport that brought in students from across the globe.
I think you are incorrect on being successful. We won one conference title (2011) in the Horizon. Before that you would have to go back to 1998. You are correct on bringing in students from across the globe. I think there were players from 10 different countries at the end. That was the good news and the bad news. Do you think they just showed up or do you think we had to chase them all over the globe. That was expensive but necessary to even compete. Either Mike wasn't a very good coach (I think he was a very good coach) or we needed to search even further to get players to win. Heck, we had a Indiana Mr. Soccer on the roster and he didn't even start.
There is a reason why only five of the ten basketball teams play soccer. It's expensive. It needed to be cut.
https://cdn.streamlinehosting.net/valpoathletics/510D1445-66EB-411D-A157-7D295308AB2C/MSO_AllTimeResults_Final.pdf
Quote from: VUSERF on August 10, 2021, 06:35:12 PMIf they had done this, this would have been a solid, smooth layup finish (not quite a slam dunk).
There is nothing wrong with a layup. It would be interesting to look at the shooting percentages of both layups and slam dunks.
Quote from: mp91 on August 11, 2021, 02:40:40 PMSimilarly, if you go to any mall within 15 miles, you hardly ever see Valpo gear, but you see Northern Illinois, Western Michigan, Indiana state, and several other programs. This is also due to a lack of sports branding by the University. Let's hope Padilla and the athletic department are more forward thinking in the future.
I disagree. It may not be at malls but the big box stores in Valpo, Walmart, Meijer, Target, etc. have quite a bit of Valpo gear. I'm sure they will go max capacity when Beacon gear can be produced.
Trying to post a screenshot of a Facebook post from a person I am close to, but the file size is too large. I will post in quotes what they posted on Facebook, and it should shed some light on the process the university followed when designing the new logo.
"Alrighty folks. I just had a conversation with the mother of the woman who developed this logo for the university. I've known her for years and years.
The daughter is absolutely crestfallen and despondent over the reaction to the logo design. Its a first for her and she is quite upset.
I have to admit, that I have been a critic, not of the name choice, but of the actual design.
I have worked in the world of design for 45 years, so I felt qualified to make a judgement regarding the design. I still think it needs a lot of work, but it could be salvaged. I apologize for being as rough as I have, but she also needs to understand that this is not a highschool project, but a rebranding for a NATIONALLY renown university. Such images are not to be taken lightly.
I guess I resent the school administration for lack of oversight and for putting a young designer in such a position. It should have never happened. But this is coming from a school that has ELIMINATED the Brauer Art Museum and the Theater Department. I think there is a disconnect somewhere at the university when it comes to the importance of art and design .
This logo is too big a deal to let s first year designer "have at it". The entire process was poorly handled by the university. They are to blame, not for the name change, but the subsequent imagery.
I told the mother that I, as well as the other 5,000 people, that have had a negative reaction see this as coming from the university, not her daughter. This is not a personal attack on her integrity as a designer. No one knew. This was coming from a large faceless entity, Valparaiso University, as far as everyone knew and it was ASSUMED, by me, that they had a larger consultant working on branding.
Anyway. I have offered to help tweek if Its not too late."
This should shed some light on the process by which the logo was made. It was an in house competition within their marketing team. From what I understand no additional compensation was awarded to the winner of the contest, but I could be wrong. $0 spent on a new logo for the university. The face of the university and they decided to spend $0 on making it look professional and decent.
This name can become very offensive and racist to many. A beacon of light implies a bright white light and is racist. Perhaps we should put up black lights around the ARC and paint the floor, bleachers, and walls with glow in the dark paint using every conceivable color. Celebrate diversity and inclusion. This would be more congruent with the entire reasoning for making the change in the first place.
Quote from: Just Sayin on August 11, 2021, 10:57:39 PM
This name can become very offensive and racist to many. A beacon of light implies a bright white light and is racist. Perhaps we should put up black lights around the ARC and paint the floor, bleachers, and walls with glow in the dark paint using every conceivable color. Celebrate diversity and inclusion. This would be more congruent with the entire reasoning for making the change in the first place.
I'm seriously concerned about this as well.
Please look at my previous comment on this issue if you'd like to know why.
Quote from: vok22 on August 11, 2021, 09:47:13 PM
This logo is too big a deal to let s first year designer "have at it". The entire process was poorly handled by the university. They are to blame, not for the name change, but the subsequent imagery.
The face of the university and they decided to spend $0 on making it look professional and decent.
Upsetting.
Quote from: vu72 on August 11, 2021, 08:12:31 AM
Quote from: valpotx on August 11, 2021, 03:40:56 AM
I agree with Chris Sparks' general sentiment. For any athlete, when you find out that your mascot is the Beacons, your first reaction will be something akin to, 'what the f..?' Watch out everyone, here come the mighty Beacons! You better be careful, otherwise we will have to shine our light of character on you! Fans chanting, 'shine our light on thee,' as we need that crucial basket. Holy crap, I can just imagine opposing fans and the taunts that our teams will receive. I would have taken Gold over Beacons, and I hated Gold. At least Dune Hawks sounded somewhat cool, and somewhat mighty.
Oh come on! If this were true imagine how kids feel about the mascot being a nut!(Ohio State) Or how about just a color?(The Crimson of Harvard) It's a mascot! You can pick all sorts of issues with LOTS of mascots unless you put them where they belong. Just a name, not intended to offend or amuse, or scare or intimidate, or anything else. Everybody just relax. Too much time on our hands. Sports start again in less than a month. It can't come soon enough. Sorry for the rant tx!!
Those mascots have been around long enough, that they don't sound stupid at this time. This is fresh, and dare I say it for pgmado's benefit, wokey ;)
Quote from: vok22 on August 11, 2021, 09:47:13 PM
Trying to post a screenshot of a Facebook post from a person I am close to, but the file size is too large. I will post in quotes what they posted on Facebook, and it should shed some light on the process the university followed when designing the new logo.
"Alrighty folks. I just had a conversation with the mother of the woman who developed this logo for the university. I've known her for years and years.
The daughter is absolutely crestfallen and despondent over the reaction to the logo design. Its a first for her and she is quite upset.
I have to admit, that I have been a critic, not of the name choice, but of the actual design.
I have worked in the world of design for 45 years, so I felt qualified to make a judgement regarding the design. I still think it needs a lot of work, but it could be salvaged. I apologize for being as rough as I have, but she also needs to understand that this is not a highschool project, but a rebranding for a NATIONALLY renown university. Such images are not to be taken lightly.
I guess I resent the school administration for lack of oversight and for putting a young designer in such a position. It should have never happened. But this is coming from a school that has ELIMINATED the Brauer Art Museum and the Theater Department. I think there is a disconnect somewhere at the university when it comes to the importance of art and design .
This logo is too big a deal to let s first year designer "have at it". The entire process was poorly handled by the university. They are to blame, not for the name change, but the subsequent imagery.
I told the mother that I, as well as the other 5,000 people, that have had a negative reaction see this as coming from the university, not her daughter. This is not a personal attack on her integrity as a designer. No one knew. This was coming from a large faceless entity, Valparaiso University, as far as everyone knew and it was ASSUMED, by me, that they had a larger consultant working on branding.
Anyway. I have offered to help tweek if Its not too late."
This should shed some light on the process by which the logo was made. It was an in house competition within their marketing team. From what I understand no additional compensation was awarded to the winner of the contest, but I could be wrong. $0 spent on a new logo for the university. The face of the university and they decided to spend $0 on making it look professional and decent.
Holy crap, seriously? If this is true, I do feel bad for the young designer, as they didn't know what they were getting into with this project. Why would you not hire a professional entity for such an important thing? This is your branding in so many ways, mainly across national television. Spend a few thousand $ to do it right, even if the name sucks...
Quote from: valpotx on August 12, 2021, 02:10:11 AM
Quote from: vok22 on August 11, 2021, 09:47:13 PM
This should shed some light on the process by which the logo was made. It was an in house competition within their marketing team. From what I understand no additional compensation was awarded to the winner of the contest, but I could be wrong. $0 spent on a new logo for the university. The face of the university and they decided to spend $0 on making it look professional and decent.
Holy crap, seriously? If this is true, I do feel bad for the young designer, as they didn't know what they were getting into with this project. Why would you not hire a professional entity for such an important thing? This is your branding in so many ways, mainly across national television. Spend a few thousand $ to do it right, even if the name sucks...
I know the individual who created the logo, and I have seen her past in-house works, which also have imagery similar to the lighthouse. I feel bad for her, but I also am upset with the university for putting her in this position, especially those responsible for reviewing and approving the logo for public release. The university already has a first-class, sophisticated beacon logo (the flame embedded in the "V") that is well liked and would proudly stand on the national stage alongside others. The fact they used an image of a fictitious lighthouse, no matter who drew it or how well, and didn't know it would be a source of ridicule, is telling. This situation shows the lack of seriousness with which the whole process has been treated, and has led to discord, division, and distrust among what should be the most loyal supporters of VU, as evidenced by the animosity among the hundreds of responses on the university Facebook page. PS: I understand from a committee member that the president was presented with four finalists and made the final choice himself.
Quote from: valpopal on August 12, 2021, 08:10:36 AMThe university already has a first-class, sophisticated beacon logo (the flame embedded in the "V") that is well liked and would proudly stand on the national stage alongside others.
This is 100% correct. Using a lighthouse is cheesy and a little too obvious. That being said, President Padilla inherited a bad situation and made the best of it. Maybe we can phase out the lighthouse once we get the actual mascot. Unless it's Beaky the Beacon...
Quote from: mj on August 12, 2021, 08:17:14 AM
Quote from: valpopal on August 12, 2021, 08:10:36 AMThe university already has a first-class, sophisticated beacon logo (the flame embedded in the "V") that is well liked and would proudly stand on the national stage alongside others.
This is 100% correct. Using a lighthouse is cheesy and a little too obvious. That being said, President Padilla inherited a bad situation and made the best of it. Maybe we can phase out the lighthouse once we get the actual mascot. Unless it's Beaky the Beacon...
Agreed. The "V-Shield" logo is good, and that's the one that should be used. It's a great logo, and stands on its own.
I don't have a problem with background artwork using a lighthouse theme in places. Unfortunately the press releases and the twitter announcement of the new schedule https://twitter.com/valpoathletics/status/1425524012592082952/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/valpoathletics/status/1425524012592082952/photo/1) had the unfortunate artwork. How hard would it have been just to keep the "V-Shield" logo on the Men's Basketball schedule for example? It is an unforced error, and not necessary.
As for me, I've decided that I won't wear anything that has that lighthouse logo on it.
A little lighthouse humor: "This is a lighthouse, mate! Your call!"
Agreed on the above points, and yes I am sad on a personal level for the young designer. As said on this page, the new torch inside the V looks great. It gave many of us hope that some VU marketing and branding was in place.
Can't the torch logo on this page simply be left alone and built into the uniforms, and call the team that Beacons? Stanford doesn't put a tree on their uniforms or feature the tree very often (gosh wonder why.) Many just think at a glance they are the "Cardinals", but in fact they are the CARDINAL. Deriving a mascot for THE CARDINAL and deciding on a TREE mascot is a feat much tougher than turning our torch into a Beacon. Fear the tree.
The Stanford leaders were woke pioneers before woke was truly awoken. I suspect they scratched their heads over "the cardinal" for awhile and just bailed by placating some environmentalist donors. Leland Stanford must be rolling over in his grave. O.P. may not be rolling over but I think he probably is scratching his head. I suspect we call out Stanford and force a match up of dueling inanimate mascots. Hype it as a WWF match without any movement in the ring? Lots of options.
So the school's marketing arm put exactly zero dollars into a critical aspect of one of its most important projects in recent history and turned it into a contest where the winner is just getting his/her feet wet? That's too incompetent to be believable. Seriously. Someone tell me I'm completely wrong.
so it is pretty clear that Valpo did not invest much cash into creating a logo or not working with a high end company specializing in logo design. Instead they took the cost efficient route. Perhaps the mascot can be a light tower than runs around like the Stanford tree and our pep bands gets rebellious, that may be a plus...
Just wanted to chip in on a couple topics...
1. Not hiring a design firm is worrying and a poor decision. I'm actually not mad at the logo, could be better, but it's not terrible imo. But still, should have used a consulting firm regardless of outcome.
2. Not sure where bbts is shopping, but I've never seen Valpo merchandise at any Target or Walmart outside of Valpo. And, hardly ever see it at malls. I agree this is a problem. Northwest Indiana schools should be prominently marketed in Northwest Indiana. Point blank.
3. Soccer is definitely expensive. But, whoever said they weren't successful is simply incorrect. They were a very well-respected program and even had players drafted into the MLS. You can argue cost, but you cant argue the program wasn't successful.
Here's a few accomplishments for the record:
– 2008, soccer program ran 1000 miles in five months to provide money for lights at the football field
– 2008, takedown #25 Bradley
– 2008, 10 victories
– 2009, 9 victories
– 2011 regular-season title; Avery wins HL Coach of the Year
– 2014, defeat #7 Michigan State
– 2014, Valpo ranked #25 nationally
– 2015 and 2016, 7 victories and 10 victories
How many other programs at the school won league titles, had multiple victories over top 25 teams, and were ranked nationally during the same time period? Very few.
This just showed what a farce this entire procedure was. We got what we paid for...a poor nickname and poor logo design/artwork.
And YES, our new President could, and should have done something about the whole process. He should have started from scratch and appointed a Committee of qualified people then worked with a qualified consulting firm for a final design, artwork, etc.
The chosen name and artwork/logo/or whatever is a disgrace to a Nationally recognized University.
Again, we got what we paid for.
I'm not wowed by the name or logo, but I'm sure there are some who will like it.
My only comment is on the logo. In the US, people read from left to right, so things pointing to the right typically equate to looking forward. In the new logo, it seems that the beacon of light is looking backward. One would think that a logo that is supposed to be a move forward would be forward looking.
The two new logos that were released today are...bad. Just keep the V with the flame in the middle and be done with it.
Quote from: Chitwood on August 12, 2021, 11:34:20 AM2. Not sure where bbtds is shopping, but I've never seen Valpo merchandise at any Target or Walmart outside of Valpo. And, hardly ever see it at malls. I agree this is a problem. Northwest Indiana schools should be prominently marketed in Northwest Indiana. Point blank.
Quote from: bbtds on August 11, 2021, 09:40:31 PMthe big box stores in Valpo, Walmart, Meijer, Target, etc. have quite a bit of Valpo gear.
Seems pretty clear from a couple people i've talked to who work at the university that the assumption is the Shield will remain the dominant logo for Valpo much as it has been and that is the one we will probably see the most. Sounds like these logos are "extra" and if any of them take off they take off but the Shield is going to be it.
Look out here comes the FREAKIN' BEACON :o :o :o WTF
I would have taken the Valpo Shield logo as our permanent logo for all branding purposes. That actually looks cool. I haven't seen a positive comment from the athlete connections that I have on Facebook, tied to the new mascot name. As a matter of fact, all of the comments are negative, even from our Valpo Baseball alumni leadership lol.
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/paul-oren-history-shows-beacons-will-catch-on-as-valparaiso-mascot-while-others-cling-to/article_68951eea-5465-5b6f-a6af-75fd853ccb4d.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
I completely forgot that my city's youth soccer association practices next to a very large Lutheran church complex/school, which I believe owns some of the land tied to the practice/game fields. I can look at the 'bygone era' that my former RA pgmado speaks of, as there is a massive 'Crusaders' on the side of their Athletics building, every Wednesday/Thursday for our 8U and 5U practices, and in a few weeks, for their games. Memories, sweet and wonderful memories... ;)
https://www.colschool.org/student-life/athletics.cfm
https://www.privateschoolreview.com/crown-of-life-lutheran-school-profile
QuoteWorst College Mascots of All Time
The Stanford Tree – Stanford University
Wushock, the Wheat Stalk – Wichita State
Sammy the Slug – UC Santa Cruz
Fighting Okra – Delta State University
Fighting Pickle – University of North Carolina School of the Arts
Speedy the Geoduck – Evergreen State College
Keggy the Keg – Dartmouth College
Kernel Cobb – Concordia College
Artie the Artichoke – Scottsdale Community College
Big Red – Western Kentucky University
Battling Bishop – Ohio Wesleyan
Blue Blob – Xavier University
Weezy the Boil Weevil – The University of Arkansas at Monticello
Mortamer McPestle – St. Louis College of Pharmacy
Temoc, the Comet – University of Texas at Dallas
[Beacons - Valparaiso University]
Sports Teams Should Keep Their Crusaders
Changing mascots based on inaccurate history is foolhardy, especially when a university does ithttps://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/in-defense-of-the-crusader-mascot
QuoteControversy concerning sports mascots has been raging in our culture, with the latest example coming to us from Valparaiso, Indiana. Many groups have found certain mascots offensive due to pejorative racial or ethnic epithets, and the clamor to change these mascots to something more palatable to modern sensibilities has been growing.
This campaign has taken aim not only at professional sports franchises—the National Football League's Washington Redskins, for example, changed its name last summer to the Washington Football Team—but also colleges and universities. In 2012, the University of North Dakota changed its name and mascot from the Fighting Sioux to the Fighting Hawks after an acrimonious process involving an official Nickname Committee and a period of time when the university's sports teams were simply known as "North Dakota."
The movement to change perceived offensive and derogatory mascots and nicknames includes campaigns targeted at the Christian past—most specifically, the use of the name Crusader. Under the influence of political correctness and a desire to be "tolerant" and "inclusive," some colleges and universities are changing their Crusader mascots so as not to offend Muslim, Jewish, and even secular students, alumni, and benefactors. Valparaiso University, whose Crusaders will now be called the Beacons, is reacting to claims that "groups such as the Ku Klux Klan began using the words and symbols of the Crusades."
....An argument can be made for changing mascots and nicknames based on derogatory terms for a group of people, but doing so based on inaccurate history, especially by an institution of higher learning, is foolhardy. The decision by Valparaiso University (and others) to change their generations-old nickname highlights the need for an accurate understanding of the Crusades—a need that is imperative in our modern world.
Spot on.
Quote from: Pgmado on August 15, 2021, 01:21:18 AM
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/paul-oren-history-shows-beacons-will-catch-on-as-valparaiso-mascot-while-others-cling-to/article_68951eea-5465-5b6f-a6af-75fd853ccb4d.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
Great article. Interesting how the current athletes have quickly accepted the Beacons, particularly the women--both Volleyball and Soccer have posted them cheering on the new mascot name. Perhaps--and its only a guess of course--the name Crusader was less popular with the women, or at least less relatable, as it really was a bunch of males assaulting the Holy Land. Just a guess.
Check this out. I really like this purposed logo compared to the ones the Admin put together. This is what a small Graphic Designer was able to put together quickly and it's light years better, imo.
Let the admin know your opinion! I know the Athletics Department reads this board! Make your opinions known!
https://twitter.com/brydfly/status/1426578137811496961?s=21
The V with the chapel is awesome, better than the cheap one on the right
It's a lot better. Wouldn't mind it as a secondary logo. I still think we should just stick with the shield as the primary at this point -- which is saying something because I really don't care for the shield all that much.
I really used to like the cartoonish crusader logo that looked somewhat similar to Notre Dame's fighting Irish logo.
If we're going to be the Beacons, the Chapel V design concept is one I could get behind. It's a much better representation of the Beacons nickname and of the university as a whole. Well done to the designer.
This chapel/lantern logo is fantastic. I want so badly to amplify this idea and this graphic designer to the admin. But as someone not involved in social media I am not sure how to draw attention to this.
Is the email address regarding the mascot change still a way to reach out to the admin?
I'm all in on the chapel/lantern/V logo.
Quote from: Pgmado on August 15, 2021, 01:21:18 AM
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/paul-oren-history-shows-beacons-will-catch-on-as-valparaiso-mascot-while-others-cling-to/article_68951eea-5465-5b6f-a6af-75fd853ccb4d.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
Most of the time, I greatly admire Paul Oren's writing, yet this one is off the mark. Sure, there will be some alumni and fans who are upset about the loss of the Crusader mascot, yet I don't see a "Crusader vs. Beacons" outrage that seems to be the premise of this article.
There are two main issues: First, the University administration was incredibly ham-fisted in the removal of the Crusader mascot, including the poor message from the interim President and SBP. As I have posted elsewhere, there was no affirmation of the past - the thousands of athletes, alumni and fans who cheered for Crusader sports. This was a missed opportunity to bring the University together in affirming the positive accomplishments of our university community. Second, the response to the name Beacons seems to be a collective "meh" - the name is bland and inoffensive. Yet the new lighthouse logo is poor.
What do these have in common? The answer is that the university administration has made and continues to make unforced errors. They have tried to do things on the cheap - they didn't think through the messaging in removing the old mascot and didn't come up with a message that would help bring the university together. They apparently went in-house to a junior designer for the new lighthouse logo, then rolled it out with little testing. Unless the new logos were a slam dunk (which they clearly are not), why not just use the nice-looking and professional V-Shield logo for sports teams and introduce other possible artwork over time?
Forget your ideas...this Administration has no clue of how to get this job done. I hope at least the Athletic Dept and Mark L will avoid the "Beacon" name and these horrible attempts at logos as much as possible. Let's just stick with the Shield and the name "Valpo". As far as the women's teams are concerned, if they like the new thing they can call themselves the "Beaconesses".
Valparaiso Beacons just sounds terrible in itself. This whole thing still seems like a made up joke. It seems like someone who wanted the worst for VU came up with the "Beacon" nickname and atrocious logos. Someone who didn't vet anything or run it by others. The fact that a group of people decided that was the best nickname and logos for a university just blows my mind. The social media criticism has been endless from what I've seen and very few people like it. Even on the survey in this forum, not a single person picked "Beacons". The top choice here was Dunehawks and that was the one that made the most sense. The university's administration should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done. They ran the law school into the ground and this recent nickname/logo decision seems to be following that path as well.
I'm a bit late to the party here as I was on vacation all week.
Beacons - Really bad name
Logo - Made a bad name worse
I want to see the survey results that went out to Alumni with the final list of mascot choices. I want to see that there was some thought put into this name with some backing that it would be accepted by the fan base. I was a defender of the President getting the final say in what name is chosen, but for the very reason that if it goes bad we know who to blame. We know who to blame now.
And I remember a few weeks back hearing that the name had been chosen but were waiting to roll out until they were able to have all the logo's and graphics complete. Well that was a joke based on what we are now hearing that a Junior graphic designer won a contest.
I will still root for VALPO. I will not refer to them as the B word in the near future nor will I buy any merchandise with that logo or that name. I'm sure in time we will all go through the 5 stages of grief and the name will be accepted and it wont be a big deal anymore. But damn-it I am in the Anger phase right now.
Quote from: Just Sayin on August 15, 2021, 08:37:48 AM
Sports Teams Should Keep Their Crusaders
Changing mascots based on inaccurate history is foolhardy, especially when a university does it
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/in-defense-of-the-crusader-mascot
QuoteControversy concerning sports mascots has been raging in our culture, with the latest example coming to us from Valparaiso, Indiana. Many groups have found certain mascots offensive due to pejorative racial or ethnic epithets, and the clamor to change these mascots to something more palatable to modern sensibilities has been growing.
This campaign has taken aim not only at professional sports franchises—the National Football League's Washington Redskins, for example, changed its name last summer to the Washington Football Team—but also colleges and universities. In 2012, the University of North Dakota changed its name and mascot from the Fighting Sioux to the Fighting Hawks after an acrimonious process involving an official Nickname Committee and a period of time when the university's sports teams were simply known as "North Dakota."
The movement to change perceived offensive and derogatory mascots and nicknames includes campaigns targeted at the Christian past—most specifically, the use of the name Crusader. Under the influence of political correctness and a desire to be "tolerant" and "inclusive," some colleges and universities are changing their Crusader mascots so as not to offend Muslim, Jewish, and even secular students, alumni, and benefactors. Valparaiso University, whose Crusaders will now be called the Beacons, is reacting to claims that "groups such as the Ku Klux Klan began using the words and symbols of the Crusades."
....An argument can be made for changing mascots and nicknames based on derogatory terms for a group of people, but doing so based on inaccurate history, especially by an institution of higher learning, is foolhardy. The decision by Valparaiso University (and others) to change their generations-old nickname highlights the need for an accurate understanding of the Crusades—a need that is imperative in our modern world.
Spot on.
LOL. What inaccurate history? There have been thousands of books written about the Crusades. The facts are pretty well established. History is history. Facts are facts. Plain and simple. Plus, of course the Catholic Church is going to be upset about the name change. It's a piece of history they would most certainly like to forget.
To be honest, not a fan of the chapel logo. I think we can do better
What inaccurate history? Read the article.
(https://i0.wp.com/phoenixchallengecoins.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/20170412_121132.jpg?resize=640%2C644&ssl=1)
The challenge coin for the VU Air Force ROTC. I think this would be better than the lighthouse.
Quote from: Just Sayin on August 16, 2021, 02:40:51 PM
What inaccurate history? Read the article.
I did read it. And, reading it made it even more laughable. Their entire analysis was based on refuting claims from one book. But, the history is out there, in many forms. You have to keep the source in mind as well. They have a clear agenda, so you have to take their sentiment with a grain of salt. Any idea that the Crusades were not religious wars is just ignoring the facts.
You can read these, which detail the events. And you will see there is nothing "inaccurate" about the Crusades in Valpo's analysis.
https://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages/crusades
https://www.britannica.com/event/Crusades
https://time.com/5696546/far-right-history-crusades/
https://shop.catholic.com/the-real-story-of-the-crusades/
QuoteHave you heard the story about the Crusades?
You know, the one about how medieval Europe's greedy kings and intolerant popes launched bloody wars of conquest on the peaceful and enlightened Muslims?
Of course you have. Today's media, movies, and academic elites—always looking for ways to bash the Church—never tire of telling it. Even many Catholics would prefer to sweep under the rug what they assume to be a dark and embarrassing period of our history.
There's only one problem with this story: It's totally false.
In The Real Story of the Crusades, historian Steve Weidenkopf replaces the prevailing anti-Catholic narrative with a factual account of Christendom's struggle to liberate and defend the Holy Land. In the process he cuts through common lies, myths, and exaggerations, such as:
The Crusades were unprovoked attacks on a peaceful, superior culture.
The true motive behind the Crusades was not piety but avarice.
Crusading soldiers were cruel anti-Semites and racists.
Muslim terrorism is a result of—and even justified by—long memories of what the Crusaders did centuries ago.
Read his book!
The Crusades were a defensive response to Muslim (Ottoman) aggression. And this war was just.
The Real Story of the First Crusadehttps://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-real-story-of-the-first-crusade
QuoteThe story of how the First Crusade succeeded is filled with personal heroics, sacrifice, and miraculous interventions throughout the journey. The real story has been obscured by the sensationalism and "Hollywood history" of our time, and the story should be set straight.
Those who entered the city in that summer of 1099 endured three years of battle, starvation, and disease in order to complete their armed pilgrimage at the Holy Sepulchre of the Lord. Eighty percent of their brothers in arms who marched from Europe with them were dead, missing, or had deserted. Those few who remained succeeded in accomplishing the task given to them by Pope Urban II (r. 1088-1099) in the fall of 1095: the liberation of Jerusalem.
The warriors of the First Crusade left the comfort of their homes and loved ones at the urging of Urban II. In November 1095, Urban preached the First Crusade at a Church council at Clermont. He called upon the warriors of Christendom to liberate the Holy Sepulchre of the Lord in Jerusalem and to stop the persecution of Holy Land Christians and Muslim harassment of Christian pilgrims from the West. Urban then traveled throughout France exhorting warriors to take the cross and participate in the armed pilgrimage.
QuoteWere the Crusades Just Wars?
The Crusades were born from the violent aggression of Islam, which had conquered ancient Christian territory in the Holy Land and North Africa and established a large foothold in Europe within a century of Muhammad's death in the early seventh century.
Additional Christian territory was stolen by Islamic conquerors in the late eleventh century when the Seljuk Turks, a nomadic peoples from the Asian steppe who converted to Sunni Islam, invaded Anatolia (modern-day Turkey), a very important province of the Byzantine Empire. Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes (r. 1068-1071) gathered a mixed force of imperial troops and mercenaries in an attempt to stop the Seljuk advance, but they were defeated at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071. Their victory allowed the Seljuks to consolidate their power in Anatolia, establishing it as the Sultanate of Rum with its capital in the ancient Christian city of Nicaea, site of the first ecumenical council in 325 and within striking distance of Constantinople.
And so, in the first place, the Crusades were launched to recover these conquered Christian territories and return them to the patrimony of Christ, which is one of the criteria for a legitimate exercise of violence.
Another justification for war is self-defense and/or defense of innocents threatened with violence. The Crusades were also a response to the severe persecution of indigenous Christians living in the occupied territories, whose lives were severely restricted and who suffered constant pressure to convert to Islam. As an example, in the early eleventh century, Christians living in the Fatimid caliphate were subject to persecution during the reign of al-Hakim, who ordered them to wear identifying black turbans and a large cross in public. He also ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, originally built by Constantine and St. Helena in the fourth century.[2]
Christian pilgrims were also subjected to harassment and violence, which demanded a defensive response from Christendom. The Seljuks, who were known for their brutality, threatened pilgrims to the holy sites in Palestine. As an example, a group of 12,000 German pilgrims led by Bishop Günther of Bamberg in 1065 was massacred by the Seljuks on Good Friday, only two days' march from Jerusalem.
The invasion of Christian territory, Muslim persecution of native Christians and pilgrims, plus the threat posed to the Christian Byzantine Empire, were all legitimate reasons to engage in defensive warfare and, and Bl. Pope Urban II cited them as justification for the First Crusade. And so in 1095, at the Council of Clermont, the pope preached an armed pilgrimage to recover the lost Christian territory of the East and specifically the Holy City of Jerusalem.
Urban viewed the Crusade as a pilgrimage, the aim of which was not to conquer but to visit the place of pilgrimage and then return home. Later popes maintained the understanding of the Crusades as just, defensive wars with the central goal of the recovery of ancient Christian territory. Heroic men and women of faith, rooted in love of Christ and neighbor, undertook the Crusades as acts of self-defense and recovery of stolen property. This is the proper understanding of these important events in Church history.
The only thing laughable is your complete ignorance of history.
The problem is 99% of the public has no idea of the past history and what it even means. A university nickname/mascot should reflect a fanciful name referring to athletic teams for the most part. It should not reflect the thoughts and ideas of some do-gooders, arrogant scholars and poor me minority groups who get offended at any and everything. I also think these groups know little or nothing about public relations, athletics and what effect athletics have on a university's image, popularity and familiarity.
In general, the public could care less about the chapel, being "beacons" of light in the world of religion or academics, etc. The nickname has no connection to the public's view or feelings toward our University. Just look at other schools' nicknames and try to relate them to the particular school: Concordia U (Chicago) "Cougars", Northwestern 'Wildcats", Notre Dame "Fighting Irish" , Loyola(Chicago) "Ramblers", Rutgers "Scarlet Knights", Vanderbilt "Commodores", and the list goes on. Oh yes, and then there are the "Beacons".
IMO....
When judging by their original stated purpose at the Council or Claremont, the crusades were indeed justified.
They were not justified in many aspects of how they were carried out and some of the associated fall out.
It is important not to judge people who lived 1,000 years ago by today's standards of behavior. But it would nonetheless be inappropriate to ignore the cruel and unjustifiably violent acts committed by many crusaders while in general terms commemorating the example of "the crusader" as something laudable, even implicitly. The legacy of crusades should be, and will forever be tainted.
However, the term "crusade" has evolved very much over the past millennium. It has come to mean more than the imperfect example set by the Christian warrior 1,000 years ago. For example, one might embark on a "crusade" for justice, truth, etc. And this evolution in the word's meaning is evidently reflected in the present day definition of the word.
By any reasonable estimation, Valpo would have been justified in retaining "The Crusaders" as the nickname, much in the same vein as College of the Holy Cross.
Holy Cross in fact cited the present day meaning of the word "crusade" when detailing the school's decision to ultimately keep its nickname, after a change was considered. The college decided to switch its logo from a knight to a shield, though.
I must really credit Holy Cross for its nuanced approach. It stood by the crusader nickname and also successfully distanced itself from any direct connotations with the crusades themselves.
It would seem they found the right balance. And compared to Valpo, there was no uproar whatsoever over these small changes amongst Holy Cross' students and alumni.
Holy Cross is also located in an extremely liberal city and state, Worcester, MA. If the college could get away with the Crusader nickname there -- and it most certainly has -- I can't see any reason why Valpo couldn't do so in IN.
The situation with Holy Cross truly could not have provided a better road map for navigating this same issue. Valpo even had the advantage over Holy Cross in that it had already been featuring the now very familiar shield/flame logo for some years.
Why Valpo did not choose to follow Holy Cross' example is a question worth asking.
On an unrelated note, the forum having added the beacon imagery at the top almost seems like an intentional troll job. It just looks so dumb lol. While I do hate the logo, it does make me laugh.
There is some irony in saying we can't judge people 1,000 years ago on today's standards when many of us, myself included, construct our values and belief system based on a 2,000 year old book.
@Just Sayin –
First, whether a war is justified is largely based on your perspective (let's remember your source is the Catholic Church which is not exactly an unbiased source). Secondly, even if it was justified (and I believe that issue can be validly argued), that is irrelevant to the point.
Whether justified or not, the Crusades resulted in mass casualties of people of different religions (and Christians who did not "follow" along). That's a fact. Whether justified to start or not, the Crusades resulted in suppression of thought. That's a fact. How the battle started is irrelevant. You keep saying people are ignorant of history, but you are the one overlooking the details.
Today, everyone seems to live in an echo-chamber, where people try to bend the truth to their particular opinion. But, history is carved in stone. We know what happened. Nonetheless, history is complicated. It's not cut and dry, it's often nuanced. It's possible for something to be both justified and harmful at the same time. But, that doesn't mean we have to name a school mascot after it. Why pick a controversial name when other universities have such innocuous mascots? Why keep a name that is surrounded by negative connotations? We know a great deal of students, administrators, and alumni were aware of the problems with the name. It's perfectly fine if you disagree, but trying to rewrite history and call historical events inaccurate is a bizarre decision.
Quote from: Just Sayin on August 16, 2021, 04:57:19 PM
https://shop.catholic.com/the-real-story-of-the-crusades/
QuoteHave you heard the story about the Crusades?
You know, the one about how medieval Europe's greedy kings and intolerant popes launched bloody wars of conquest on the peaceful and enlightened Muslims?
Of course you have. Today's media, movies, and academic elites—always looking for ways to bash the Church—never tire of telling it. Even many Catholics would prefer to sweep under the rug what they assume to be a dark and embarrassing period of our history.
There's only one problem with this story: It's totally false.
In The Real Story of the Crusades, historian Steve Weidenkopf replaces the prevailing anti-Catholic narrative with a factual account of Christendom's struggle to liberate and defend the Holy Land. In the process he cuts through common lies, myths, and exaggerations, such as:
The Crusades were unprovoked attacks on a peaceful, superior culture.
The true motive behind the Crusades was not piety but avarice.
Crusading soldiers were cruel anti-Semites and racists.
Muslim terrorism is a result of—and even justified by—long memories of what the Crusaders did centuries ago.
Read his book!
The Crusades were a defensive response to Muslim (Ottoman) aggression. And this war was just.
The Real Story of the First Crusade
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-real-story-of-the-first-crusade
QuoteThe story of how the First Crusade succeeded is filled with personal heroics, sacrifice, and miraculous interventions throughout the journey. The real story has been obscured by the sensationalism and "Hollywood history" of our time, and the story should be set straight.
Those who entered the city in that summer of 1099 endured three years of battle, starvation, and disease in order to complete their armed pilgrimage at the Holy Sepulchre of the Lord. Eighty percent of their brothers in arms who marched from Europe with them were dead, missing, or had deserted. Those few who remained succeeded in accomplishing the task given to them by Pope Urban II (r. 1088-1099) in the fall of 1095: the liberation of Jerusalem.
The warriors of the First Crusade left the comfort of their homes and loved ones at the urging of Urban II. In November 1095, Urban preached the First Crusade at a Church council at Clermont. He called upon the warriors of Christendom to liberate the Holy Sepulchre of the Lord in Jerusalem and to stop the persecution of Holy Land Christians and Muslim harassment of Christian pilgrims from the West. Urban then traveled throughout France exhorting warriors to take the cross and participate in the armed pilgrimage.
QuoteWere the Crusades Just Wars?
The Crusades were born from the violent aggression of Islam, which had conquered ancient Christian territory in the Holy Land and North Africa and established a large foothold in Europe within a century of Muhammad's death in the early seventh century.
Additional Christian territory was stolen by Islamic conquerors in the late eleventh century when the Seljuk Turks, a nomadic peoples from the Asian steppe who converted to Sunni Islam, invaded Anatolia (modern-day Turkey), a very important province of the Byzantine Empire. Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes (r. 1068-1071) gathered a mixed force of imperial troops and mercenaries in an attempt to stop the Seljuk advance, but they were defeated at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071. Their victory allowed the Seljuks to consolidate their power in Anatolia, establishing it as the Sultanate of Rum with its capital in the ancient Christian city of Nicaea, site of the first ecumenical council in 325 and within striking distance of Constantinople.
And so, in the first place, the Crusades were launched to recover these conquered Christian territories and return them to the patrimony of Christ, which is one of the criteria for a legitimate exercise of violence.
Another justification for war is self-defense and/or defense of innocents threatened with violence. The Crusades were also a response to the severe persecution of indigenous Christians living in the occupied territories, whose lives were severely restricted and who suffered constant pressure to convert to Islam. As an example, in the early eleventh century, Christians living in the Fatimid caliphate were subject to persecution during the reign of al-Hakim, who ordered them to wear identifying black turbans and a large cross in public. He also ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, originally built by Constantine and St. Helena in the fourth century.[2]
Christian pilgrims were also subjected to harassment and violence, which demanded a defensive response from Christendom. The Seljuks, who were known for their brutality, threatened pilgrims to the holy sites in Palestine. As an example, a group of 12,000 German pilgrims led by Bishop Günther of Bamberg in 1065 was massacred by the Seljuks on Good Friday, only two days' march from Jerusalem.
The invasion of Christian territory, Muslim persecution of native Christians and pilgrims, plus the threat posed to the Christian Byzantine Empire, were all legitimate reasons to engage in defensive warfare and, and Bl. Pope Urban II cited them as justification for the First Crusade. And so in 1095, at the Council of Clermont, the pope preached an armed pilgrimage to recover the lost Christian territory of the East and specifically the Holy City of Jerusalem.
Urban viewed the Crusade as a pilgrimage, the aim of which was not to conquer but to visit the place of pilgrimage and then return home. Later popes maintained the understanding of the Crusades as just, defensive wars with the central goal of the recovery of ancient Christian territory. Heroic men and women of faith, rooted in love of Christ and neighbor, undertook the Crusades as acts of self-defense and recovery of stolen property. This is the proper understanding of these important events in Church history.
The only thing laughable is your complete ignorance of history.
"We massacred a bunch of people but it's okay because they provoked us" is quite an interesting argument to make lmao.
Also pretty funny your source is a book from "shop.Catholic.com". Because that's not a biased opinion at all.
Finally, still didn't answer my question about what is "inaccurate history" about the Crusades. Because all of the paragraphs you pasted, don't refute the whole massacre part of the history.
The Crusades were a response to hundreds of years of Muslim aggression in historical Christian lands. They did despicable things to innocent people including rape and murder.
So the crusades were simply an act of self defense, thus meeting the criteria of a just war as spelled out in the Catholic Catechism (CCC 2258-2317). Augustine argued that there are just wars only if certain conditions are met. They were met in the Crusades.
QuoteIf your child was being threatened by someone, possibly even to the point of death, would you be justified in doing whatever you had to do to defend your child, even killing the attacker, if necessary? This, in very simplified form, illustrates the concept of a just war. G. Osborne
QuoteThe historical backdrop to the Crusades provides some eye-opening insight for us. Prior to 600 AD, North Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, Spain, France, Italy, and various Mediterranean islands were all Christian lands. But trouble begins in the early 600s, as Muslim aggression, led by its founder Muhammad, began to sweep across the ancient world, beginning with the Arabian Peninsula.
By 638 Jerusalem was captured as Muslims flooded into the Holy Land, conquering the most sacred places in Christianity and forcing many Christians to either convert, flee, or endure heavy taxation, persecution, enslavement, and even death.
Crusade expert Dr. Paul Crawford writes that "By A.D. 732 ... Christians had lost Egypt, Palestine, Syria, North Africa, Spain, most of Asia Minor, and southern France. Italy ... (was) under threat and the (Mediterranean) islands would come under Muslim rule in the next century. The Christian communities of Arabia were entirely destroyed ... Those in Persia were under severe pressure. Two-thirds of the formerly Roman Christian world was now ruled by Muslims."
This wave of aggression continued, as Islamic armies launched attacks throughout the Mediterranean and Europe, even attacking Rome in 846. In 1009, things escalated yet again, as Muslim caliph/leader Al-Hakim destroyed the Holy Sepulchre and countless other sacred Holy Land sites. Christian persecution also intensified, including attacks on pilgrims journeying to the Holy Land. 1065 saw the massacre of thousands of German pilgrims (some historians estimate 12,000 killed) on Good Friday, just two days from Jerusalem.
Meanwhile, Seljuk Turks (non-Arab Muslims) were advancing into the heart of eastern Christianity as well, within striking distance of the great Byzantine Christian city of Constantinople. To add insult, Nicaea (think Nicaean Creed) became the invaders' capital, and Antioch also fell in 1084. By 1092 not one of the great Christian cities of Asia remained in Christian hands. Graham Osborne
War is ugly. Some Crusaders acted in an unsanctioned manner which was condemned by the church and later Popes apologized not for the purpose and execution of the Crusades, but for the acts of some Christians who acted in unsanctioned ways including the slaughter of some innocents.
Pope John Paul
QuoteFor the Crusaders' Sack of Constantinople in 1204. To the Patriarch of Constantinople he said "Some memories are especially painful, and some events of the distant past have left deep wounds in the minds and hearts of people to this day. I am thinking of the disastrous sack of the imperial city of Constantinople, which was for so long the bastion of Christianity in the East. It is tragic that the assailants, who had set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their own brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians fills Catholics with deep regret. How can we fail to see here the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the human heart?".
QuoteSuch actions are deeply saddening, and can't be defended on any level. But the instances of Crusaders failing to act according to Christian principles do not invalidate the Crusades themselves or the noble intentions they were called under: "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (Jn 15:13).Osborne
Modern Aftermath of Crusades
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/modern-aftermath-of-the-crusades-1767
Catholic History is best understood by the careful record keepers and historians who were Catholics, not those who are biased against Catholicsm.
This is my last word on this subject.
According to my own recorded history, I have never been wrong, and am admired by all who are not inherently evil.
No other sources should be examined, because they are so blinded by their own bias, they clearly are not able to document events truthfully.
Honestly the Beacon nickname isn't that bad, and I don't think a mascot is necessary, but the school does need to get a handle on the logo for branding.
Quote from: Just Sayin on August 17, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
The Crusades were a response to hundreds of years of Muslim aggression in historical Christian lands. They did despicable things to innocent people including rape and murder.
So the crusades were simply an act of self defense, thus meeting the criteria of a just war as spelled out in the Catholic Catechism (CCC 2258-2317). Augustine argued that there are just wars only if certain conditions are met. They were met in the Crusades.
QuoteIf your child was being threatened by someone, possibly even to the point of death, would you be justified in doing whatever you had to do to defend your child, even killing the attacker, if necessary? This, in very simplified form, illustrates the concept of a just war. G. Osborne
QuoteThe historical backdrop to the Crusades provides some eye-opening insight for us. Prior to 600 AD, North Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, Spain, France, Italy, and various Mediterranean islands were all Christian lands. But trouble begins in the early 600s, as Muslim aggression, led by its founder Muhammad, began to sweep across the ancient world, beginning with the Arabian Peninsula.
By 638 Jerusalem was captured as Muslims flooded into the Holy Land, conquering the most sacred places in Christianity and forcing many Christians to either convert, flee, or endure heavy taxation, persecution, enslavement, and even death.
Crusade expert Dr. Paul Crawford writes that "By A.D. 732 ... Christians had lost Egypt, Palestine, Syria, North Africa, Spain, most of Asia Minor, and southern France. Italy ... (was) under threat and the (Mediterranean) islands would come under Muslim rule in the next century. The Christian communities of Arabia were entirely destroyed ... Those in Persia were under severe pressure. Two-thirds of the formerly Roman Christian world was now ruled by Muslims."
This wave of aggression continued, as Islamic armies launched attacks throughout the Mediterranean and Europe, even attacking Rome in 846. In 1009, things escalated yet again, as Muslim caliph/leader Al-Hakim destroyed the Holy Sepulchre and countless other sacred Holy Land sites. Christian persecution also intensified, including attacks on pilgrims journeying to the Holy Land. 1065 saw the massacre of thousands of German pilgrims (some historians estimate 12,000 killed) on Good Friday, just two days from Jerusalem.
Meanwhile, Seljuk Turks (non-Arab Muslims) were advancing into the heart of eastern Christianity as well, within striking distance of the great Byzantine Christian city of Constantinople. To add insult, Nicaea (think Nicaean Creed) became the invaders' capital, and Antioch also fell in 1084. By 1092 not one of the great Christian cities of Asia remained in Christian hands. Graham Osborne
War is ugly. Some Crusaders acted in an unsanctioned manner which was condemned by the church and later Popes apologized not for the purpose and execution of the Crusades, but for the acts of some Christians who acted in unsanctioned ways including the slaughter of some innocents.
Pope John Paul
QuoteFor the Crusaders' Sack of Constantinople in 1204. To the Patriarch of Constantinople he said "Some memories are especially painful, and some events of the distant past have left deep wounds in the minds and hearts of people to this day. I am thinking of the disastrous sack of the imperial city of Constantinople, which was for so long the bastion of Christianity in the East. It is tragic that the assailants, who had set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their own brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians fills Catholics with deep regret. How can we fail to see here the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the human heart?".
QuoteSuch actions are deeply saddening, and can't be defended on any level. But the instances of Crusaders failing to act according to Christian principles do not invalidate the Crusades themselves or the noble intentions they were called under: "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (Jn 15:13).Osborne
Modern Aftermath of Crusades
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/modern-aftermath-of-the-crusades-1767
Catholic History is best understood by the careful record keepers and historians who were Catholics, not those who are biased against Catholicsm.
This is my last word on this subject.
Again, you're making sweeping generalizations based on limited facts. No one is arguing what caused the war (and you proved my point about whether a war is justified or not is based on your perspective, given the fact that you used a Catholic definition of "just wars. And, most historians are not biased against Catholics. So I'm not really sure what you're talking about in that regard). Nonetheless, what's important, and the debate regarding the Crusader moniker, is more focused on what happened during the war (not how it started, or why).
If you want to get into the history, we can. We can talk about the Crusade's massacres of Jewish people in the Rhineland. Or, how Tancred vowed to protect the innocent bystanders when Jerusalem fell and; yet, the Armed Forces broke those orders of protection and savagely killed scores of women and children. We can talk about the looting of Constantinople. These actions don't seem to be very "holy" to me. You even say yourself "war is ugly," so why would we keep a name that is synonymous with ugly actions? We know it's synonymous with the ugly because of the response from students, alumni, as well as several other universities that have taken similar actions. So, essentially, you're making our point.
But, let's move on and get back to nicknames and logos. If people haven't bothered to learn the history by now, they probably never will. Plus, after all, whether you like it or not, the Crusader name is long gone. The quicker we move on, the better.
Quote from: mp91 on August 18, 2021, 02:36:37 PMQuote from: Just Sayin on August 17, 2021, 01:49:54 PMThe Crusades were a response to hundreds of years of Muslim aggression in historical Christian lands. They did despicable things to innocent people including rape and murder. So the crusades were simply an act of self defense, thus meeting the criteria of a just war as spelled out in the Catholic Catechism (CCC 2258-2317). Augustine argued that there are just wars only if certain conditions are met. They were met in the Crusades. QuoteIf your child was being threatened by someone, possibly even to the point of death, would you be justified in doing whatever you had to do to defend your child, even killing the attacker, if necessary? This, in very simplified form, illustrates the concept of a just war. G. Osborne
QuoteThe historical backdrop to the Crusades provides some eye-opening insight for us. Prior to 600 AD, North Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, Spain, France, Italy, and various Mediterranean islands were all Christian lands. But trouble begins in the early 600s, as Muslim aggression, led by its founder Muhammad, began to sweep across the ancient world, beginning with the Arabian Peninsula. By 638 Jerusalem was captured as Muslims flooded into the Holy Land, conquering the most sacred places in Christianity and forcing many Christians to either convert, flee, or endure heavy taxation, persecution, enslavement, and even death. Crusade expert Dr. Paul Crawford writes that "By A.D. 732 ... Christians had lost Egypt, Palestine, Syria, North Africa, Spain, most of Asia Minor, and southern France. Italy ... (was) under threat and the (Mediterranean) islands would come under Muslim rule in the next century. The Christian communities of Arabia were entirely destroyed ... Those in Persia were under severe pressure. Two-thirds of the formerly Roman Christian world was now ruled by Muslims." This wave of aggression continued, as Islamic armies launched attacks throughout the Mediterranean and Europe, even attacking Rome in 846. In 1009, things escalated yet again, as Muslim caliph/leader Al-Hakim destroyed the Holy Sepulchre and countless other sacred Holy Land sites. Christian persecution also intensified, including attacks on pilgrims journeying to the Holy Land. 1065 saw the massacre of thousands of German pilgrims (some historians estimate 12,000 killed) on Good Friday, just two days from Jerusalem. Meanwhile, Seljuk Turks (non-Arab Muslims) were advancing into the heart of eastern Christianity as well, within striking distance of the great Byzantine Christian city of Constantinople. To add insult, Nicaea (think Nicaean Creed) became the invaders' capital, and Antioch also fell in 1084. By 1092 not one of the great Christian cities of Asia remained in Christian hands. Graham Osborne
War is ugly. Some Crusaders acted in an unsanctioned manner which was condemned by the church and later Popes apologized not for the purpose and execution of the Crusades, but for the acts of some Christians who acted in unsanctioned ways including the slaughter of some innocents. Pope John Paul QuoteFor the Crusaders' Sack of Constantinople in 1204. To the Patriarch of Constantinople he said "Some memories are especially painful, and some events of the distant past have left deep wounds in the minds and hearts of people to this day. I am thinking of the disastrous sack of the imperial city of Constantinople, which was for so long the bastion of Christianity in the East. It is tragic that the assailants, who had set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their own brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians fills Catholics with deep regret. How can we fail to see here the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the human heart?".
QuoteSuch actions are deeply saddening, and can't be defended on any level. But the instances of Crusaders failing to act according to Christian principles do not invalidate the Crusades themselves or the noble intentions they were called under: "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (Jn 15:13).Osborne
Modern Aftermath of Crusades https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/modern-aftermath-of-the-crusades-1767 Catholic History is best understood by the careful record keepers and historians who were Catholics, not those who are biased against Catholicsm. This is my last word on this subject.
Again, you're making sweeping generalizations based on limited facts. No one is arguing what caused the war (and you proved my point about whether a war is justified or not is based on your perspective, given the fact that you used a Catholic definition of "just wars. And, most historians are not biased against Catholics. So I'm not really sure what you're talking about in that regard). Nonetheless, what's important, and the debate regarding the Crusader moniker, is more focused on what happened during the war (not how it started, or why). If you want to get into the history, we can. We can talk about the Crusade's massacres of Jewish people in the Rhineland. Or, how Tancred vowed to protect the innocent bystanders when Jerusalem fell and; yet, the Armed Forces broke those orders of protection and savagely killed scores of women and children. We can talk about the looting of Constantinople. These actions don't seem to be very "holy" to me. You even say yourself "war is ugly," so why would we keep a name that is synonymous with ugly actions? We know it's synonymous with the ugly because of the response from students, alumni, as well as several other universities that have taken similar actions. So, essentially, you're making our point. But, let's move on and get back to nicknames and logos. If people haven't bothered to learn the history by now, they probably never will. Plus, after all, whether you like it or not, the Crusader name is long gone. The quicker we move on, the better.
You have a very arrogant and dismissive way of responding. So I don't expect to have a productive debate with you.
You have your opinion, some based on facts, some based on emotions. Others have their own, also based on facts and emotions. I for one liked the Crusader name. I never had a problem with it. Yes atrocities happened during the Crusade's. Some will focus on the bad and only that. Other's look at the current meaning of the word and maybe the ideal of what the Crusades were supposed to be about.
If we start looking for the negative in everything, lets go change every name in this light. Spartan's. Certainly plenty to complain about there. Vikings. Yup. How about anything named after Native American tribes, who were some of the most brutal people on this earth. What about any names related to the US Military. Surely not all soldiers acted properly. You can say these names are "synonymous with ugly actions" or you can look at them for the positive attributes for what they represent in today's perspective. Spartans - Protective, Fierce. Native Americans - Nobel, Brave. Crusader - Virtuous, Defender, etc.
Not one person I know who wants to keep the Crusader name is dismissing that bad things happened during that time. That's never the argument from this side.
As seen in this twitter post today announcing soccer's regular season opening against Indiana, Valpo Athletics apparently likes the shield logo. Most fans react very positively to it as well. It is also the logo used on this message board. The surface of the playing fields already have displayed the shield logo on them. Much of the campus uses the shield on various stationery and promotional materials.
Importantly, the shield logo even gives a subtle nod of respect to all those athletes and students who played or rooted for teams under the "Crusader" name, which enhances unity among the alumni, something desperately needed at this time if the numerous combative comments on social media are any indication.
The university needs to be decisive, formally embrace the shield as its official and only logo, ditching the new experiments that only cause confusion, display indecisiveness, and appear amateurish at best. Save the energy and money for other more important things that do require change.
[tweet]1428364079152865283[/tweet]
More whining. Blah Blah blah.
Quote from: vu72 on August 19, 2021, 11:15:06 AM
More whining. Blah Blah blah.
So, praising the university and Athletics Department on its excellent shield logo, pointing out its popularity within the fan base, supporting a positive step that ensures more unity among alumni, plus encouraging decisiveness that inspires confidence and even saves money for the university is defined by you as "whining"? ???
Quote from: valpopal on August 19, 2021, 11:02:58 AMAs seen in this twitter post today announcing soccer's regular season opening against Indiana, Valpo Athletics apparently likes the shield logo. Most fans react very positively to it as well. It is also the logo used on this message board. The surface of the playing fields already have displayed the shield logo on them. Much of the campus uses the shield on various stationery and promotional materials. Importantly, the shield logo even gives a subtle nod of respect to all those athletes and students who played or rooted for teams under the "Crusader" name, which enhances unity among the alumni, something desperately needed at this time if the numerous combative comments on social media are any indication. The university needs to be decisive, formally embrace the shield as its official and only logo, ditching the new experiments that only cause confusion, display indecisiveness, and appear amateurish at best. Save the energy and money for other more important things that do require change. [tweet]1428364079152865283[/tweet]
The football shop designs all used the shield logo (along with "Protect the shield" slogan). Maybe partly because of the lack of time to build in the new logo, but its the right move regardless as you mention. The shield logo works great. if we need/want a secondary logo fine (it shouldn't be the lighthouse IMO) but keep the shield front and center.
Quote from: vuny98 on August 18, 2021, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: mp91 on August 18, 2021, 02:36:37 PMQuote from: Just Sayin on August 17, 2021, 01:49:54 PMThe Crusades were a response to hundreds of years of Muslim aggression in historical Christian lands. They did despicable things to innocent people including rape and murder. So the crusades were simply an act of self defense, thus meeting the criteria of a just war as spelled out in the Catholic Catechism (CCC 2258-2317). Augustine argued that there are just wars only if certain conditions are met. They were met in the Crusades. QuoteIf your child was being threatened by someone, possibly even to the point of death, would you be justified in doing whatever you had to do to defend your child, even killing the attacker, if necessary? This, in very simplified form, illustrates the concept of a just war. G. Osborne
QuoteThe historical backdrop to the Crusades provides some eye-opening insight for us. Prior to 600 AD, North Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, Spain, France, Italy, and various Mediterranean islands were all Christian lands. But trouble begins in the early 600s, as Muslim aggression, led by its founder Muhammad, began to sweep across the ancient world, beginning with the Arabian Peninsula. By 638 Jerusalem was captured as Muslims flooded into the Holy Land, conquering the most sacred places in Christianity and forcing many Christians to either convert, flee, or endure heavy taxation, persecution, enslavement, and even death. Crusade expert Dr. Paul Crawford writes that "By A.D. 732 ... Christians had lost Egypt, Palestine, Syria, North Africa, Spain, most of Asia Minor, and southern France. Italy ... (was) under threat and the (Mediterranean) islands would come under Muslim rule in the next century. The Christian communities of Arabia were entirely destroyed ... Those in Persia were under severe pressure. Two-thirds of the formerly Roman Christian world was now ruled by Muslims." This wave of aggression continued, as Islamic armies launched attacks throughout the Mediterranean and Europe, even attacking Rome in 846. In 1009, things escalated yet again, as Muslim caliph/leader Al-Hakim destroyed the Holy Sepulchre and countless other sacred Holy Land sites. Christian persecution also intensified, including attacks on pilgrims journeying to the Holy Land. 1065 saw the massacre of thousands of German pilgrims (some historians estimate 12,000 killed) on Good Friday, just two days from Jerusalem. Meanwhile, Seljuk Turks (non-Arab Muslims) were advancing into the heart of eastern Christianity as well, within striking distance of the great Byzantine Christian city of Constantinople. To add insult, Nicaea (think Nicaean Creed) became the invaders' capital, and Antioch also fell in 1084. By 1092 not one of the great Christian cities of Asia remained in Christian hands. Graham Osborne
War is ugly. Some Crusaders acted in an unsanctioned manner which was condemned by the church and later Popes apologized not for the purpose and execution of the Crusades, but for the acts of some Christians who acted in unsanctioned ways including the slaughter of some innocents. Pope John Paul QuoteFor the Crusaders' Sack of Constantinople in 1204. To the Patriarch of Constantinople he said "Some memories are especially painful, and some events of the distant past have left deep wounds in the minds and hearts of people to this day. I am thinking of the disastrous sack of the imperial city of Constantinople, which was for so long the bastion of Christianity in the East. It is tragic that the assailants, who had set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their own brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians fills Catholics with deep regret. How can we fail to see here the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the human heart?".
QuoteSuch actions are deeply saddening, and can't be defended on any level. But the instances of Crusaders failing to act according to Christian principles do not invalidate the Crusades themselves or the noble intentions they were called under: "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (Jn 15:13).Osborne
Modern Aftermath of Crusades https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/modern-aftermath-of-the-crusades-1767 Catholic History is best understood by the careful record keepers and historians who were Catholics, not those who are biased against Catholicsm. This is my last word on this subject.
Again, you're making sweeping generalizations based on limited facts. No one is arguing what caused the war (and you proved my point about whether a war is justified or not is based on your perspective, given the fact that you used a Catholic definition of "just wars. And, most historians are not biased against Catholics. So I'm not really sure what you're talking about in that regard). Nonetheless, what's important, and the debate regarding the Crusader moniker, is more focused on what happened during the war (not how it started, or why). If you want to get into the history, we can. We can talk about the Crusade's massacres of Jewish people in the Rhineland. Or, how Tancred vowed to protect the innocent bystanders when Jerusalem fell and; yet, the Armed Forces broke those orders of protection and savagely killed scores of women and children. We can talk about the looting of Constantinople. These actions don't seem to be very "holy" to me. You even say yourself "war is ugly," so why would we keep a name that is synonymous with ugly actions? We know it's synonymous with the ugly because of the response from students, alumni, as well as several other universities that have taken similar actions. So, essentially, you're making our point. But, let's move on and get back to nicknames and logos. If people haven't bothered to learn the history by now, they probably never will. Plus, after all, whether you like it or not, the Crusader name is long gone. The quicker we move on, the better.
You have a very arrogant and dismissive way of responding. So I don't expect to have a productive debate with you.
You have your opinion, some based on facts, some based on emotions. Others have their own, also based on facts and emotions. I for one liked the Crusader name. I never had a problem with it. Yes atrocities happened during the Crusade's. Some will focus on the bad and only that. Other's look at the current meaning of the word and maybe the ideal of what the Crusades were supposed to be about.
If we start looking for the negative in everything, lets go change every name in this light. Spartan's. Certainly plenty to complain about there. Vikings. Yup. How about anything named after Native American tribes, who were some of the most brutal people on this earth. What about any names related to the US Military. Surely not all soldiers acted properly. You can say these names are "synonymous with ugly actions" or you can look at them for the positive attributes for what they represent in today's perspective. Spartans - Protective, Fierce. Native Americans - Nobel, Brave. Crusader - Virtuous, Defender, etc.
Not one person I know who wants to keep the Crusader name is dismissing that bad things happened during that time. That's never the argument from this side.
I think the difference between Spartans and Native American monikers is that those are largely associated in society with the positive attributes of those groups, while the Crusaders name (rightfully or wrongfully) has a more negative connotation in society at large. It's more a question of public perception than anything else. I, for example, never personally associated the Crusades with the negative actions that occurred, but I know many people who did and, therefore, I supported a change for perception purposes.
I'm perfectly fine with anyone that disagrees with the name change. While I may have a different perspective, I have no issue with that. But, what I do find concerning are the people that are claiming the negative side of the Crusades is "inaccurate history," as several people on this message board have said. That's why I may have appeared dismissive, because I think it's important to be truthful in our analysis. And, saying these events that are in the historical record (and supported by numerous sources) are "inaccurate", frankly is an argument that should be dismissed. It's one thing to argue the benefits outweigh the negatives, but it's quite another to say that anyone that points out these negatives are historically "inaccurate." Because that's simply not true. Those events did happen. It is those people I was debating with in this message board. Like I said, I have no issue with those who simply disagree with the name change because, while I may have a different perspective, they certainly have valid arguments.
As for the shield, I think it will continue to be in the rotation. Many schools have multiple logos. Wouldn't be surprised if the lighthouse becomes a secondary logo, much the way the locomotive has become an alternate logo for Purdue behind the more popular "P."
Quote from: valpopal on August 19, 2021, 11:02:58 AMditching the new experiments that only cause confusion, display indecisiveness, and appear amateurish at best.
No. This is whining. The "experiment" is over. It's a done deal. The Chorale isn't going to have "Beacons" across their robes. The shield has already been acknowledged as a continuing part of the University's identity. The Beacons are for athletic purposes only. It's a nickname. That's it. The shield will continue to be the main emblem to the public.
Quote from: vu72 on August 19, 2021, 02:59:47 PM
Quote from: valpopal on August 19, 2021, 11:02:58 AMditching the new experiments that only cause confusion, display indecisiveness, and appear amateurish at best.
No. This is whining. The "experiment" is over. It's a done deal. The Chorale isn't going to have "Beacons" across their robes. The shield has already been acknowledged as a continuing part of the University's identity. The Beacons are for athletic purposes only. It's a nickname. That's it. The shield will continue to be the main emblem to the public.
So, out of a whole post, you clip one section of a sentence that you don't like and, therefore, label it all as "whining." Then you further confuse the situation.
If the "experiment" is over, why is the university floating various experimental logos with lighthouses and lanterns on its Facebook page and encouraging others to use them, plus promising even more? ("As we continue to introduce the many ways in which #WeAreBeacons, watch for new visual representations and symbols of Beacons and our light that shines, from our Division I Athletics programs, to our alumni community, and across campus.") Sounds to me like the "experiment" is not over!
I have already acknowledged the university's intent to keep the shield as "a continuing part of the University identity," and I have applauded that move; however, I am suggesting it should be the only logo to avoid confusion, indecisiveness, and amateurish artwork, all opinions voiced by many in the Valpo community. For an example, just look at the header for this message board, which now contains the Victory Bell, the Shield, and now the silly Lighthouse.
Finally, and importantly, as I noted: only the shield logo even gives a subtle nod of respect to all those athletes and students who played or rooted for teams under the "Crusader" name, which enhances unity among the alumni.
Shield Up Baby! Damn I miss Carlson.
Quote from: usc4valpo on August 19, 2021, 06:30:49 PM
Shield Up Baby! Damn I miss Carlson.
You miss Dale like a hot coal under a horse's saddle
Quote from: vu72 on August 19, 2021, 02:59:47 PM
Quote from: valpopal on August 19, 2021, 11:02:58 AMditching the new experiments that only cause confusion, display indecisiveness, and appear amateurish at best.
No. This is whining. The "experiment" is over. It's a done deal. The Chorale isn't going to have "Beacons" across their robes. The shield has already been acknowledged as a continuing part of the University's identity. The Beacons are for athletic purposes only. It's a nickname. That's it. The shield will continue to be the main emblem to the public.
If you are back in Texas, as per your profile location, I am not sure if they mentioned on your way across the border, but we don't allow Beacon supporters here. Crusaders only :)
Quote from: mp91 on August 19, 2021, 01:01:42 PMQuote from: vuny98 on August 18, 2021, 05:06:58 PMQuote from: mp91 on August 18, 2021, 02:36:37 PMQuote from: Just Sayin on August 17, 2021, 01:49:54 PMThe Crusades were a response to hundreds of years of Muslim aggression in historical Christian lands. They did despicable things to innocent people including rape and murder. So the crusades were simply an act of self defense, thus meeting the criteria of a just war as spelled out in the Catholic Catechism (CCC 2258-2317). Augustine argued that there are just wars only if certain conditions are met. They were met in the Crusades. QuoteIf your child was being threatened by someone, possibly even to the point of death, would you be justified in doing whatever you had to do to defend your child, even killing the attacker, if necessary? This, in very simplified form, illustrates the concept of a just war. G. Osborne
QuoteThe historical backdrop to the Crusades provides some eye-opening insight for us. Prior to 600 AD, North Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, Spain, France, Italy, and various Mediterranean islands were all Christian lands. But trouble begins in the early 600s, as Muslim aggression, led by its founder Muhammad, began to sweep across the ancient world, beginning with the Arabian Peninsula. By 638 Jerusalem was captured as Muslims flooded into the Holy Land, conquering the most sacred places in Christianity and forcing many Christians to either convert, flee, or endure heavy taxation, persecution, enslavement, and even death. Crusade expert Dr. Paul Crawford writes that "By A.D. 732 ... Christians had lost Egypt, Palestine, Syria, North Africa, Spain, most of Asia Minor, and southern France. Italy ... (was) under threat and the (Mediterranean) islands would come under Muslim rule in the next century. The Christian communities of Arabia were entirely destroyed ... Those in Persia were under severe pressure. Two-thirds of the formerly Roman Christian world was now ruled by Muslims." This wave of aggression continued, as Islamic armies launched attacks throughout the Mediterranean and Europe, even attacking Rome in 846. In 1009, things escalated yet again, as Muslim caliph/leader Al-Hakim destroyed the Holy Sepulchre and countless other sacred Holy Land sites. Christian persecution also intensified, including attacks on pilgrims journeying to the Holy Land. 1065 saw the massacre of thousands of German pilgrims (some historians estimate 12,000 killed) on Good Friday, just two days from Jerusalem. Meanwhile, Seljuk Turks (non-Arab Muslims) were advancing into the heart of eastern Christianity as well, within striking distance of the great Byzantine Christian city of Constantinople. To add insult, Nicaea (think Nicaean Creed) became the invaders' capital, and Antioch also fell in 1084. By 1092 not one of the great Christian cities of Asia remained in Christian hands. Graham Osborne
War is ugly. Some Crusaders acted in an unsanctioned manner which was condemned by the church and later Popes apologized not for the purpose and execution of the Crusades, but for the acts of some Christians who acted in unsanctioned ways including the slaughter of some innocents. Pope John Paul QuoteFor the Crusaders' Sack of Constantinople in 1204. To the Patriarch of Constantinople he said "Some memories are especially painful, and some events of the distant past have left deep wounds in the minds and hearts of people to this day. I am thinking of the disastrous sack of the imperial city of Constantinople, which was for so long the bastion of Christianity in the East. It is tragic that the assailants, who had set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their own brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians fills Catholics with deep regret. How can we fail to see here the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the human heart?".
QuoteSuch actions are deeply saddening, and can't be defended on any level. But the instances of Crusaders failing to act according to Christian principles do not invalidate the Crusades themselves or the noble intentions they were called under: "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (Jn 15:13).Osborne
Modern Aftermath of Crusades https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/modern-aftermath-of-the-crusades-1767 (https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/modern-aftermath-of-the-crusades-1767) Catholic History is best understood by the careful record keepers and historians who were Catholics, not those who are biased against Catholicsm. This is my last word on this subject.
Again, you're making sweeping generalizations based on limited facts. No one is arguing what caused the war (and you proved my point about whether a war is justified or not is based on your perspective, given the fact that you used a Catholic definition of "just wars. And, most historians are not biased against Catholics. So I'm not really sure what you're talking about in that regard). Nonetheless, what's important, and the debate regarding the Crusader moniker, is more focused on what happened during the war (not how it started, or why). If you want to get into the history, we can. We can talk about the Crusade's massacres of Jewish people in the Rhineland. Or, how Tancred vowed to protect the innocent bystanders when Jerusalem fell and; yet, the Armed Forces broke those orders of protection and savagely killed scores of women and children. We can talk about the looting of Constantinople. These actions don't seem to be very "holy" to me. You even say yourself "war is ugly," so why would we keep a name that is synonymous with ugly actions? We know it's synonymous with the ugly because of the response from students, alumni, as well as several other universities that have taken similar actions. So, essentially, you're making our point. But, let's move on and get back to nicknames and logos. If people haven't bothered to learn the history by now, they probably never will. Plus, after all, whether you like it or not, the Crusader name is long gone. The quicker we move on, the better.
You have a very arrogant and dismissive way of responding. So I don't expect to have a productive debate with you. You have your opinion, some based on facts, some based on emotions. Others have their own, also based on facts and emotions. I for one liked the Crusader name. I never had a problem with it. Yes atrocities happened during the Crusade's. Some will focus on the bad and only that. Other's look at the current meaning of the word and maybe the ideal of what the Crusades were supposed to be about. If we start looking for the negative in everything, lets go change every name in this light. Spartan's. Certainly plenty to complain about there. Vikings. Yup. How about anything named after Native American tribes, who were some of the most brutal people on this earth. What about any names related to the US Military. Surely not all soldiers acted properly. You can say these names are "synonymous with ugly actions" or you can look at them for the positive attributes for what they represent in today's perspective. Spartans - Protective, Fierce. Native Americans - Nobel, Brave. Crusader - Virtuous, Defender, etc. Not one person I know who wants to keep the Crusader name is dismissing that bad things happened during that time. That's never the argument from this side.
I think the difference between Spartans and Native American monikers is that those are largely associated in society with the positive attributes of those groups, while the Crusaders name (rightfully or wrongfully) has a more negative connotation in society at large. It's more a question of public perception than anything else. I, for example, never personally associated the Crusades with the negative actions that occurred, but I know many people who did and, therefore, I supported a change for perception purposes. I'm perfectly fine with anyone that disagrees with the name change. While I may have a different perspective, I have no issue with that. But, what I do find concerning are the people that are claiming the negative side of the Crusades is "inaccurate history," as several people on this message board have said. That's why I may have appeared dismissive, because I think it's important to be truthful in our analysis. And, saying these events that are in the historical record (and supported by numerous sources) are "inaccurate", frankly is an argument that should be dismissed. It's one thing to argue the benefits outweigh the negatives, but it's quite another to say that anyone that points out these negatives are historically "inaccurate." Because that's simply not true. Those events did happen. It is those people I was debating with in this message board. Like I said, I have no issue with those who simply disagree with the name change because, while I may have a different perspective, they certainly have valid arguments. As for the shield, I think it will continue to be in the rotation. Many schools have multiple logos. Wouldn't be surprised if the lighthouse becomes a secondary logo, much the way the locomotive has become an alternate logo for Purdue behind the more popular "P."
I'm not sure anyone said the negative sides of the Crusades was inaccurate history. Most people, including myself, have clearly said bad things happened during the Crusades. Even the Church has said as much. What I assume most believe is "inaccurate" is that the Crusades were purely unprovoked conquest battles. I believe there is plenty of history (which at nearly 1,000 years ago, I'm sure can be up for debate) that the Crusades were in response to hundreds of years of attacks and conquest. Now the Crusades lasted hundreds of years, meaning the people that started the Crusades were long dead before they were even half way through. In that time, I am sure goalposts shifted, certain leaders had alliterative motives, and massacres occurred. I am also sure, there were similar actions from the other side leading up to and during the Crusades. War isn't pretty today, and definitely wasn't 1,000 years ago either.
This is where the meaning of the word Crusader has its debate. Some will falsely (IMO) claim that the Crusades were all/mostly about genocide and unprovoked conquest of Muslims, etc. That narrative is "inaccurate history" from my perspective and the reason why I believe the name Crusader is seen in a negative light vs the other names I have said. This agenda driven view at history and changing the meaning of words matters to some of us, which is why we push back. It's not just Crusaders. Its Columbus Day, its the 1619 project, its the Constitution. As far as it goes for Valpo, it still sucks for some of us, especially when a name we loved and had an emotional tie to is replaced, especially with something like "Beacons". But it's just a team mascot name. It doesn't matter that much. But it's all part of a bigger, and much more important discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mMp_mBam0U
Looks like the shield logo is being placed at center court. I will miss the Crusader, but the shield should look sharp.
[tweet]1428766508084338692[/tweet]
Vuny98 –
There were definitely people on the message board saying the Crusader name change was based on "inaccurate history." I also believe you can argue the merits of the change, but you can't call "fake news" on this one (as many tried to do on here). And, no one is arguing there weren't reasons for trying to get back the land, literally no one here has argued that. Also, I don't think people are changing the meaning of "Crusaders" or other terms you talk about. I just think more people are becoming more aware of what happened. In past decades, all you learned in school about Columbus was that he was an explorer and sang songs about his ships. There really wasn't much history involved. Now, people are telling both sides of the story. That's not necessarily all bad. You can't learn how to avoid pitfalls of the past if you aren't aware of them. The so-called agenda to change history is a little far-fetched. People have learned more about the past in the Internet age and, therefore, perceptions have changed. Sure, there always be some wackos arguing differently – on both sides of the aisle – but they are few and far between and don't represent the majority of people. (Side note: you brought up Columbus Day. Obviously, the destruction of the native peoples is problematic, but similarly are we also sure we want to celebrate a guy who tried to go to China and ended up going West, landed in America, but believed he was in India? LOL. I'm joking, but also serious)
But this is a tiring discussion...
More importantly, very happy to see the administration embracing name, image, and likeness policies. The AD had some good statements about that in the video.
The only thing that matters is what is true, not how many or how few believe this or that.
In my opinion this artist/designer has captured the essence of the Valpo Beacons in a logo(s). Simple but elegant, and not preposterous.
https://twitter.com/brydfly/status/1428799658109906953
https://twitter.com/AlBillets/status/1428869979613577224
Longwinded but the episode has my :thumbsup: Oops I thought I was in Union Street hoops!
I hope that Bryan Flynn sells merchandise with his logo on it. If the Valpo admin allows pride to dictate the continued use of mediocre logos, we should launch a GoFundMe to provide Bryan enough capital to produce some merchandise.
If you put these in the hands of the student section and if Valpo wins again on ESPN, then the Valpo admin will be forced to switch their logo.
Alternatively, get merch with these logos into the hands of alumni during Homecoming. I believe that would apply similar pressure to the administration.
Quote from: justducky on August 20, 2021, 08:25:00 PM
Longwinded but the episode has my :thumbsup: Oops I thought I was in Union Street hoops!
Only now are you realizing I'm longwinded?!?!?! Are you new here?
Haha. This was a tough one to do. I wanted to talk it out a bit, but wanted to be organic with it and not try to script out too much. That led to rambling a bit. I completely missed talking about the Shield and my thoughts there. Maybe next episode. Ha.
As far as talking about this subject, let's quit wasting time and space talking about this fiasco and just forget about all of these lousy logo attempts, including the School's official attempts, and use the shield, and do all that we can to get the name" Beacons" out of our mind, GO VALPO!
Whether or not people like it, the new nickname is the Beacons and is not going to change. The logo(s) after the shield may still be up for grabs and for that I'd rather have something professional not amateur displayed/used.
https://twitter.com/AlBillets/status/1429082129464451077
Go Crusaders!
The alternative logo got a nice boost from alum Larry Mowry, local weather broadcaster for ABC News in Chicago.
[tweet]1428913034093793281[/tweet]
Bryan Flynn's logos/designs are so much better than what they're currently using. It's not even a comparison. They should trash the current logos and switch to one of his designs. His designs are sleek and very professional. They don't look like clip art like the current logo.
Forget all the very poor quality logos submitted until now . However this latest one with the "V" with the chapel and light beams in the "v" is tremendous. Believe it or not , I really like it.
It's been a long, long time since I backed away from Valpo and the forum over the MSO decision. But I have been lurking infrequently. But I am choosing to drop a post here for what it's worth cuz it's kinda important to the future of Valpo athletics.
I was amused by the cat 4 storm caused by the new nickname and definitely sided with the anti-Beacons...... to a point. And to boot, I hated the "waiting for the art work" that delayed(?) the announcement. Bush league stuff.
What turned me around was Bryan's professional approach to logo development. A beacon doesn't have to be a freakin lighthouse. It is a lamp, a light, a flame, a source of direction and guidance. And by using the chapel as the "lamp" the way he did, he hit the ball out of the park. It pulls it all together professionally — he even thought of miniaturization issues.
Now, as I go back to lurking the forum and occasionally dropping in on the Valpo athletics site, I hope someone on this board goes beyond the typical forum-internal bitching and has the courage to directly confront Padilla and MLB with Bryan's designs and a demand that the university reach out to him and incorporate his ideas going forward.
And BTW, I am thinking MBB might just break through this season. And if they do, it's 50/50 whether the university has the sense and skill to leverage it properly.
I checked with the folks at the site of the Coalition to Retire the Crusader, which organized the removal of the Crusader, and even there the support for the alternative logo with the illuminated Chapel inside the V rather than the in-house lighthouse logo is nearly unanimous. Although I support the current shield V as seen on the football and baseball fields, especially because of its subtle nod to past athletes and fans who backed the Crusader, I would readily accept the illuminated Chapel V as the secondary logo.
Ironically (I wish I could say it was done by strategic design), despite the deep division caused by the change from the Crusader, if the administration acts wisely and follows the popular choice of the Chapel V instead of any lighthouse imagery, this botched logo situation could actually lead to a move that would be viewed as positive and likely be a key to re-unifying most of the Valpo community.
Get a logo that looks professional and cool, and we can live and move forward with the name. Time to focus on quality on our foundation than on window dressing. We need to start progressing in basketball and win consistently.
I sent the President an email this weekend encouraging him to adopt the Chapel logo. He actually responded in about an hour saying he would pass my thoughts along to his team. What does that mean, probably nothing but I was surprised how quickly he responded on a weekend.
Interestingly I can count on two fingers the number of times I was in the Chapel while in school but I love that logo.
The new look of the basketball court is done.
[tweet]1429908445986279432[/tweet]
Quote from: IndyValpo on August 23, 2021, 03:15:37 PM
I sent the President an email this weekend encouraging him to adopt the Chapel logo. He actually responded in about an hour saying he would pass my thoughts along to his team. What does that mean, probably nothing but I was surprised how quickly he responded on a weekend.
Interestingly I can count on two fingers the number of times I was in the Chapel while in school but I love that logo.
Not surprising that he responded. I have sent him a couple of emails and he always responds even though we haven't even met the man. The reality is that the alumni are always VERY important. Those of us on this board with strong feelings need to get the guts to reach out to those who actually can make a difference.
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/1429948458149031944
I can imagine that replacing the stands curtain/divider may take some time. Women's games might still have a Crusaders feel to them :)
Quote from: valpotx on August 24, 2021, 02:41:24 AM
I can imagine that replacing the stands curtain/divider may take some time. Women's games might still have a Crusaders feel to them :)
Nothing that a quick tape job won't fix.
Think Homer Drew Banner
The new center center court logo looks great! However the "Valpo Beacons" on each end of the court looks terrible. It is what it is! Bad!
Quote from: valpo64 on August 24, 2021, 06:41:26 PM
The new center center court logo looks great! However the "Valpo Beacons" on each end of the court looks terrible. It is what it is! Bad!
Guessing it will look better once the hoops are in place. Won't be a giant blank space in the middle.
Quote from: valpotx on August 24, 2021, 02:41:24 AM
I can imagine that replacing the stands curtain/divider may take some time. Women's games might still have a Crusaders feel to them :)
Perhaps replacing the curtain will take some time, yet have they considered swapping it end for end, so at least it becomes a gold wall to the arena floor instead of the old nickname?
This may have already been posted here:
Reactions to becoming the Beacons
Lachlan Streeter and Nathan Jaki Aug 19, 2021
http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_7920ed6e-0157-11ec-97b7-236d9f69e888.html
It would have been so easy for President Padilla to kowtow to the woke crowd that invented the Crusader controversy, choose some cutsie nickname with no spiritual connection, and move on as quickly as possible. But he didn't do that. Instead, he chose a name (probably the one name) that symbolized and embraced Valpo's foundational Christian principles. Even more, he left nothing to the imagination as to the source of the light with his statement, "Our new nickname directly connects to the University's motto, 'In Thy Light We See Light'," Suddenly, the focus has been elevated from a group of controversial human beings associated with religious history to God Almighty and his Son Jesus Christ as the university's inspiration. I commend President Padilla for his decision, as well as those on the selection committee that recommended the name Beacons and voted it into the top 4. I trust that God will honor this decision and continue to bless Valparaiso University long into the future. "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5
An athletic team's nickname SHOULD refer to the athletic side of a school's perception in the public realm. It should not be a revelation of a school's grandeur exposition of the school's philosophy drawn up by an arrogant group of academics and unqualified "no it all" committee members that have no concept of a good public relations approach to the problem.
I agree that the "beacon" logo is ridiculous and a very poor choice. But...what else can you expect to project when you choose the name "beacons"?
Quote from: valpo64 on August 26, 2021, 03:50:45 PM
An athletic team's nickname SHOULD refer to the athletic side of a school's perception in the public realm. It should not be a revelation of a school's grandeur exposition of the school's philosophy drawn up by an arrogant group of academics and unqualified "no it all" committee members that have no concept of a good public relations approach to the problem.
I agree that the "beacon" logo is ridiculous and a very poor choice. But...what else can you expect to project when you choose the name "beacons"?
Now that you've insulted the members, do you even have any idea who they might have been? Perhaps an apology is in order. Maybe you'd like to confront Eron Gordon with your opinion of him. You decide.
Quote from: valpo64 on August 26, 2021, 03:50:45 PM
An athletic team's nickname SHOULD refer to the athletic side of a school's perception in the public realm. It should not be a revelation of a school's grandeur exposition of the school's philosophy drawn up by an arrogant group of academics and unqualified "no it all" committee members that have no concept of a good public relations approach to the problem.
I agree that the "beacon" logo is ridiculous and a very poor choice. But...what else can you expect to project when you choose the name "beacons"?
Did you even see what wh had written? I truly agree that it's time to unite behind the name Beacons and use the "Light of Christ" connection that Valparaiso University has stood by all these many years.
Go Beacons!!!!!
As a reminder, please email President Padilla directly regarding your opinions and suggestions of the logos.
Twitter / board messages alone will likely be ignored by the administration.
Light the Beacons!
Just throwing some two cents here. I've talked to a lot of alums, friends I went to school with, etc. They generally dislike Beacons. On the other hand, I've spoken to a lot of students over the last two days and they're pumped for the name. Kids are wearing shirts everywhere. There's a buzz about the name on campus. It's fascinating to me how different the perception of the name is among the two groups.
Quote from: wh on August 26, 2021, 10:26:28 AM
It would have been so easy for President Padilla to kowtow to the woke crowd that invented the Crusader controversy, choose some cutsie nickname with no spiritual connection, and move on as quickly as possible. But he didn't do that. Instead, he chose a name (probably the one name) that symbolized and embraced Valpo's foundational Christian principles. Even more, he left nothing to the imagination as to the source of the light with his statement, "Our new nickname directly connects to the University's motto, 'In Thy Light We See Light'," Suddenly, the focus has been elevated from a group of controversial human beings associated with religious history to God Almighty and his Son Jesus Christ as the university's inspiration. I commend President Padilla for his decision, as well as those on the selection committee that recommended the name Beacons and voted it into the top 4. I trust that God will honor this decision and continue to bless Valparaiso University long into the future. "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5
I almost started a poll on how long it would take for 64 to respond with his traditional bitch. He did not disappoint!
For what it is worth, I did e-mail President Padilla within hours of his announcement of the new name. While I must say I received a rather quick response, later in the same day, the President did not reply, the response was sent by a staff member. If the Committee as a whole is embarrassed, so be it. They own the decision and they should live with it. Just because they made the choice they did doesn't mean I or anyone else have to like it and commend them for their decision.
At least the student body, based on earlier comments, likes it. That is good and I hope those feelings continue to be on the positive side. Nevertheless, I don't have to like it. I will continue to support the school financially and attend games as in the past. GO VALPO!
Quote from: Pgmado on August 26, 2021, 09:58:53 PM
Just throwing some two cents here. I've talked to a lot of alums, friends I went to school with, etc. They generally dislike Beacons. On the other hand, I've spoken to a lot of students over the last two days and they're pumped for the name. Kids are wearing shirts everywhere. There's a buzz about the name on campus. It's fascinating to me how different the perception of the name is among the two groups.
As surprised as I was/am in the selection of the crappy mascot name, I am even more surprised that you are telling me that Gen Z was walking around and doing things outside?? Were they wondering about the big bright object in the sky?
Since the logo reveal, has anyone really seen the University feature the lighthouse anywhere on their internet platforms? I could be wrong, but the fact that they themselves aren't even confident enough to promote the new logo all over the place proves how much of a marketing failure this is. Beacons = fine, logo = terrible.
Quote from: jtm on August 28, 2021, 08:03:20 AM
Since the logo reveal, has anyone really seen the University feature the lighthouse anywhere on their internet platforms? I could be wrong, but the fact that they themselves aren't even confident enough to promote the new logo all over the place proves how much of a marketing failure this is. Beacons = fine, logo = terrible.
So low go on the logo? ;D
The Torch (student newspaper) wrote an article about Bryan's Logos.
https://twitter.com/valpotorch/status/1435286845697544194?s=21
Quote from: jtm on August 28, 2021, 08:03:20 AM
Since the logo reveal, has anyone really seen the University feature the lighthouse anywhere on their internet platforms? I could be wrong, but the fact that they themselves aren't even confident enough to promote the new logo all over the place proves how much of a marketing failure this is. Beacons = fine, logo = terrible.
It came out on a few of the schedules released by the Athletic Dept. the day or two after the announcement. These were out on social media and on the websites, with the new lighthouse logo on the bottom left of the announcments. However, subsequent releases from the Athletic Dept. had the V-Shield logo instead.
The lighthouse logo that was released is terrible, and fortunately the Athletic department has realized that is the case. We can hope the rest of the University does the same.
Quote from: valpo95 on September 08, 2021, 08:52:19 AMQuote from: jtm on August 28, 2021, 08:03:20 AMSince the logo reveal, has anyone really seen the University feature the lighthouse anywhere on their internet platforms? I could be wrong, but the fact that they themselves aren't even confident enough to promote the new logo all over the place proves how much of a marketing failure this is. Beacons = fine, logo = terrible.
It came out on a few of the schedules released by the Athletic Dept. the day or two after the announcement. These were out on social media and on the websites, with the new lighthouse logo on the bottom left of the announcments. However, subsequent releases from the Athletic Dept. had the V-Shield logo instead. The lighthouse logo that was released is terrible, and fortunately the Athletic department has realized that is the case. We can hope the rest of the University does the same.
Yet for some reason we have it at the top of this website. It haunts me every time I log on.
https://twitter.com/brydfly/status/1436405691447660546?s=21
I'd like to thank Bryan for allowing the usage of these logos on our message board. They look fantastic. :thumbsup:
Quote from: valpo04 on September 13, 2021, 07:02:32 AM
I'd like to thank Bryan for allowing the usage of these logos on our message board. They look fantastic. :thumbsup:
Yes, they look great and should be an example for the VU administration to adopt as well. Thanks valpo04 and Bryan! (Can we get rid of the lighthouse now?)
Quote from: valpopal on September 13, 2021, 08:17:43 AM
Quote from: valpo04 on September 13, 2021, 07:02:32 AM
I'd like to thank Bryan for allowing the usage of these logos on our message board. They look fantastic. :thumbsup:
Yes, they look great and should be an example for the VU administration to adopt as well. Thanks valpo04 and Bryan! (Can we get rid of the lighthouse now?)
Done! (at least on our banner) :)
Bryan's designs are decent aesthetically. But, to be honest, I don't think our primary logo should be a religious symbol. The entire point of getting rid of the Crusader moniker was to be more inclusive. Making the face of the University a religious chapel is the opposite of broadening the school's appeal. A great chunk of the University's student population doesn't identifying as religious.
I'm not saying we shouldn't tap into those values or even celebrate the Lutheran heritage of the school. But, I don't think it should be the primary logo. If you look across the country, really only Notre Dame makes a religion an outwardly facing marketing tool. Other schools like Georgetown, Boston College, Loyola, Depaul, and others are religious but don't make it a focal point.
So, I think it would be best for the University to not have a chapel as the primary logo.
Agreed on not using this chapel design. It is hard to see and not recognizable to most who haven't seen the unique roof.
Your further comment about avoiding religion as a focal point at all of those schools very well might be true. If pulling back the religious element is a strategic goal for Valpo, then that pretty well summarizes the wandering focus of the school and its struggles.
What does it want to be? And does it have the resources to wander into competition with those bigger schools who don't want to put forth a catholic identity? If you are seeking a blurred identity you can choose among 600-700 private schools nationally.
Watch the next big thing some people will want is to tear down the chapel.
Interesting. I don't see the logo as religious at all. I see it referencing the largest architectural feature of the school and doing it very well. There is a reason it has resonated with so many people, it is very well designed.
Your point is well taken about it being the school's biggest architectural feature. That's definitely true. But, if the primary logo of your university is a chapel/church/cathedral, it's hard to differentiate the religious aspect of the building from the logo.
Imagine if you're a random student in Michigan checking out colleges. You hear about Valpo and you do a quick Google search. When you first see in this logo you're going to think: (1) oh that's a church, the school must be very religious or (2) what is that? Is that a building?... You're not going to think "ah that's an architectural feature of the University." Instant reactions are important and I'm just not sure if this symbolism is the best moving forward.
Chairback – let's not be dramatic, no one is saying tear down the chapel.
Crusadermoe – you make several good points. First, the unique roof is definitely hard to distinguish if you are unfamiliar with the school. Secondly, the University definitely has to come up with a clear plan for how they want to be viewed by the general public. Maybe they do, perhaps it will be revealed in time. But, having an identity is crucially important, you're right.... Although, where I will disagree is that I don't think identifying as a religious institution above all other considerations is the best move. Societal trends show that school religious affiliations are becoming less and less important and that younger generations are becoming less and less religious. So, to directly tie yourself to religion as your #1 identity seems weird. It should be a identity, but not THE identity.
I think the school has done a great job in the last 15 years of keeping Christian values but also not shoving them down your throat. I hope this trend continues. I for one know that in my classes at Valpo, probably only 5-10% chose the school because of the religious history of the University. Like I said, it is still important, but should not be the primary focus (if the University plans on growing and wants to bring in more students).
Quote from: Chitwood on September 13, 2021, 03:08:43 PM
Bryan's designs are decent aesthetically. But, to be honest, I don't think our primary logo should be a religious symbol. The entire point of getting rid of the Crusader moniker was to be more inclusive. Making the face of the University a religious chapel is the opposite of broadening the school's appeal. A great chunk of the University's student population doesn't identifying as religious.
I'm not saying we shouldn't tap into those values or even celebrate the Lutheran heritage of the school. But, I don't think it should be the primary logo. If you look across the country, really only Notre Dame makes a religion an outwardly facing marketing tool. Other schools like Georgetown, Boston College, Loyola, Depaul, and others are religious but don't make it a focal point.
So, I think it would be best for the University to not have a chapel as the primary logo.
The Chapel is the center and highest point of campus, it was designed that way. O. P. Kretzmann often said, "If this place (Valparaiso University) departs from its purpose, the chapel should be an accusing embarrassment." I am not a big fan of the Beacon nickname for our sports teams, perhaps it will grow on me, but I am ecstatic about the use of the chapel in Bryan's logo. I am tired of this university being ashamed of being Lutheran, of trying to be an indistinguishable secular university among the thousands of other similar places of higher education. It is time we rededicated ourselves to be what O. P. talked about in his inauguration speech, and I quote "It is this positive and aggressive approach to the problems of a changing world which enables us to face the future of this particular University with absolute confidence in its destiny. Only the school with a Christian orientation can today stand before the rising generation and say: We have something to offer you which you can find nowhere else. Others may try to make men scientific; we must do that-and make them wise. Others may give men knowledge; we must give them that-and understanding. Others may try to make men useful; we must do that-and we must make them noble. We are not asking you to come to an ivory tower to escape from the realities of life or to a market-place where the voices and minds of men are confused by the immediate and material things of life. We are able to give you the fellowship of men and women whose respect for Truth is not vitiated by doubts concerning its reality and permanence. We are able to offer you a school which recognizes the supreme dignity and worth of the individual human being. We are committed to the principle that the destiny of a Christian University lies in the quality of the men and women who are graduated from its halls rather than in quantitative production. Our future lies in the development of men and women, perhaps relatively few in number, whose quality will be so high that they will exert an influence on society which cannot be measured in terms of numbers."
I think that Bryan did his homework on Valpo, the sources are out there if anyone is interested. As has been mentioned on the forum before, Dr Baepler's book Flame of Faith, Lamp of Learning would be a good place to start. Then move on to sections of the O.P. Kretzmann Collection (https://scholar.valpo.edu/kretzmann_collection/) pertaining to VU.
Quote from: FWalum on September 15, 2021, 10:18:34 PMDr Baepler's book Flame of Faith, Lamp of Learning would be a good place to start.
btw, Dr Richard Baepler passed away this past 2020. His funeral was only attended by his son, daughter, his son-in-law and pastor in "the chapel" as it was known by so many. That is a funeral I will always regret not being able to attend due to covid restrictions.
I agree with the others, not a big fan of making the chapel the primary logo. Doesn't really make sense to make a religious symbol your primary logo if a great deal of students could care less about religious affiliations.
The Lutheran heritage is already a prominent marketing tool for the University. We don't really need to lean into it anymore. We have already tapped into the religious market. What the University needs to do to expand is be more attractive to general academically-inclined students. We need to be siphoning kids from the Indiana schools and other Midwest universities, not just religious kids. The religious nature of the University is always going to be a differentiating factor and always be present. However, making religion the primary focus of the University is only going to push away the people we want to attract.
Think about it – Baylor and BYU are some of the most religious universities in the country. And they do not use religious symbolism in logos. Same with many other prominent religious institutions.
The last thing you want is someone having to ask "do I have to be religious to go there?", As soon as that happens, you are wiping out at least 35% of your applicant pool. Let's learn from these major universities. We can come up with another great logo without a chapel.
Quote from: mp91 on September 16, 2021, 12:42:48 PM
I agree with the others, not a big fan of making the chapel the primary logo. Doesn't really make sense to make a religious symbol your primary logo if a great deal of students could care less about religious affiliations.
The Lutheran heritage is already a prominent marketing tool for the University. We don't really need to lean into it anymore. We have already tapped into the religious market. What the University needs to do to expand is be more attractive to general academically-inclined students. We need to be siphoning kids from the Indiana schools and other Midwest universities, not just religious kids. The religious nature of the University is always going to be a differentiating factor and always be present. However, making religion the primary focus of the University is only going to push away the people we want to attract.
Think about it – Baylor and BYU are some of the most religious universities in the country. And they do not use religious symbolism in logos. Same with many other prominent religious institutions.
The last thing you want is someone having to ask "do I have to be religious to go there?", As soon as that happens, you are wiping out at least 35% of your applicant pool. Let's learn from these major universities. We can come up with another great logo without a chapel.
While I agree that we need to be attracting students from various walks of life, we do need to maintain our focus on being a Lutheran institution. Kids from day one have asked "do I have to be religious or do I need to take classes in Lutheranism". Does Notre Dame shy away from their founding? We walk a precarious line. I only caution what OP said many years ago. Without the cross we become just another Butler (he actually used a different university but some won't understand the context so I'll leave it at "Butler")
Quote from: vu72 on September 16, 2021, 01:01:13 PM
Quote from: mp91 on September 16, 2021, 12:42:48 PM
I agree with the others, not a big fan of making the chapel the primary logo. Doesn't really make sense to make a religious symbol your primary logo if a great deal of students could care less about religious affiliations.
The Lutheran heritage is already a prominent marketing tool for the University. We don't really need to lean into it anymore. We have already tapped into the religious market. What the University needs to do to expand is be more attractive to general academically-inclined students. We need to be siphoning kids from the Indiana schools and other Midwest universities, not just religious kids. The religious nature of the University is always going to be a differentiating factor and always be present. However, making religion the primary focus of the University is only going to push away the people we want to attract.
Think about it – Baylor and BYU are some of the most religious universities in the country. And they do not use religious symbolism in logos. Same with many other prominent religious institutions.
The last thing you want is someone having to ask "do I have to be religious to go there?", As soon as that happens, you are wiping out at least 35% of your applicant pool. Let's learn from these major universities. We can come up with another great logo without a chapel.
While I agree that we need to be attracting students from various walks of life, we do need to maintain our focus on being a Lutheran institution. Kids from day one have asked "do I have to be religious or do I need to take classes in Lutheranism". Does Notre Dame shy away from their founding? We walk a precarious line. I only caution what OP said many years ago. Without the cross we become just another Butler (he actually used a different university but some won't understand the context so I'll leave it at "Butler")
I'm not saying we should completely abandon the religious aspects of the University. You're right, that would be a mistake. I'm just saying that we should not make it the primary focus. There is Notre Dame, but they are really the only university that throws religion in the forefront (and probably BYU as well to some extent). But even religious schools like BYU, Notre Dame, Gonzaga, Georgetown, etc. don't use religious symbolism in their primary logos.
Some kids may ask if you have to take Lutheran classes, but you would be surprised how many students don't even know the school is Lutheran until they arrive on campus. Back in the day, at my orientation, 3 of the 4 other students in my group were stunned that the University had a requirement to take some form of religious class. For a great deal of students who currently apply, the Lutheran heritage is an afterthought. So, I think all of us can agree, we need to do a better job of marketing to all walks of life (as you say). I just don't think you can do that if your primary logo is religious.
I'm okay with the architectural feature in the logo. Much like the Catholic school down the road a bit that uses the golden dome, their most significant architectural feature.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: covufan on September 16, 2021, 10:30:59 PM
I'm okay with the architectural feature in the logo. Much like the Catholic school down the road a bit that uses the golden dome, their most significant architectural feature.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm fine with using an architectural feature in theory. But, let's be honest, this is not nearly as famous as the golden dome. Also, notably, the dome is not a religious building. That's the primary point I was going for, even a religious school like Notre Dame doesn't make a religious building the primary logo (even though the Notre Dame Cathedral/Chapel is one of the most visited tourist attractions in the entire state).
Quote from: mp91 on September 17, 2021, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: covufan on September 16, 2021, 10:30:59 PM
I'm okay with the architectural feature in the logo. Much like the Catholic school down the road a bit that uses the golden dome, their most significant architectural feature.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm fine with using an architectural feature in theory. But, let's be honest, this is not nearly as famous as the golden dome. Also, notably, the dome is not a religious building. That's the primary point I was going for, even a religious school like Notre Dame doesn't make a religious building the primary logo (even though the Notre Dame Cathedral/Chapel is one of the most visited tourist attractions in the entire state).
The main feature of the Golden Dome is a nearly 20-foot tall statue of the Virgin Mary. I think that qualifies enough as a religious symbol. Plus, the school's name itself means "Our Lady," also significantly religious. Therefore, a Notre Dame logo displaying the school name and the Golden Dome image is totally "religious." Oh, and let's not forget this guy:
Quote from: valpopal on September 17, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Quote from: mp91 on September 17, 2021, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: covufan on September 16, 2021, 10:30:59 PM
I'm okay with the architectural feature in the logo. Much like the Catholic school down the road a bit that uses the golden dome, their most significant architectural feature.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm fine with using an architectural feature in theory. But, let's be honest, this is not nearly as famous as the golden dome. Also, notably, the dome is not a religious building. That's the primary point I was going for, even a religious school like Notre Dame doesn't make a religious building the primary logo (even though the Notre Dame Cathedral/Chapel is one of the most visited tourist attractions in the entire state).
The main feature of the Golden Dome is a nearly 20-foot tall statue of the Virgin Mary. I think that qualifies enough as a religious symbol. Plus, the school's name itself means "Our Lady," also significantly religious. Therefore, a Notre Dame logo displaying the school name and the Golden Dome image is totally "religious." Oh, and let's not forget this guy:
While we're at it, let's add Touchdown Jesus and Notre Dame Our Mother (composed in honor of Mary, Jesus' mother) sung by the students, fans, and team huddled together after every home football game, at least 1 crucifix in every building on campus, and a host of other highly offensive, completely exclusive symbols specifically designed to hurt the feelings of every Athiest, Satanist, Marxist, and Muslim professor on campus.
It isn't, but using it in branding would be a good start. In the realm of making the most of what you've got, highlighting the architecture of the chapel seems like a smart move. It's the most distinctive physical part of campus.
Quote from: valpopal on September 17, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Quote from: mp91 on September 17, 2021, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: covufan on September 16, 2021, 10:30:59 PM
I'm okay with the architectural feature in the logo. Much like the Catholic school down the road a bit that uses the golden dome, their most significant architectural feature.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm fine with using an architectural feature in theory. But, let's be honest, this is not nearly as famous as the golden dome. Also, notably, the dome is not a religious building. That's the primary point I was going for, even a religious school like Notre Dame doesn't make a religious building the primary logo (even though the Notre Dame Cathedral/Chapel is one of the most visited tourist attractions in the entire state).
The main feature of the Golden Dome is a nearly 20-foot tall statue of the Virgin Mary. I think that qualifies enough as a religious symbol. Plus, the school's name itself means "Our Lady," also significantly religious. Therefore, a Notre Dame logo displaying the school name and the Golden Dome image is totally "religious." Oh, and let's not forget this guy:
Touchdown Jesus is not the school's primary logo. Similarly, they use the dome in marketing, not the statue on top. Most people probably don't even know what the statue on top of the dome is.
More importantly, Valpo is not Notre Dame. This is the primary point I have been trying to make. Valpo is trying to attract students and expand. Notre Dame has so many students banging on their doors, they reject thousands each year. They don't have trouble bringing in diverse talent; therefore, they can afford to lean into their religious symbolism.
Once Valpo becomes an internationally known name like Notre Dame, we can use all the religious symbolism we want. Or, if you want the University to go super niche, then lean into the religious logos. But, if you want to expand and appeal to all walks of life (like the University claims), using religious logos is not in the best interest.
Quote from: mp91 on September 19, 2021, 11:14:38 AM
...they use the dome in marketing, not the statue on top. Most people probably don't even know what the statue on top of the dome is.
Go to Notre Dame's official brand marketing page and check for yourself. You will see the statue is prominent and even featured as a symbol of "unwavering values": https://marcomm.nd.edu/the-brand/
Would you say in Valpo's heyday that the religious aspect it was known for attracted students? When I was there in the 90s the religious aspect very much a main part of campus culture. And I loved it.
To me it's not the religious side or emphasis not bringing or attracting students, it's the price vs the value you get now. It used to be very competitive to get in or at least to get scholarship money. Now if you pay you are accepted easily. Rankings have dropped. Leadership is crap. This is the reason why attendance is low.
There has not been a good academic leader since Harre.
Valpo is not ND. No sh**, most schools are not. The comment makes no sense.
Quote from: Chairback on September 19, 2021, 04:55:26 PM
Would you say in Valpo's heyday that the religious aspect it was known for attracted students? When I was there in the 90s the religious aspect very much a main part of campus culture. And I loved it.
To me it's not the religious side or emphasis not bringing or attracting students, it's the price vs the value you get now. It used to be very competitive to get in or at least to get scholarship money. Now if you pay you are accepted easily. Rankings have dropped. Leadership is crap. This is the reason why attendance is low.
There has not been a good academic leader since Harre.
Valpo is not ND. No sh**, most schools are not. The comment makes no sense.
The pool of potential students has been decreasing in number. The birth rate peaked in 1989 -- there aren't as many kids to go to school anymore. Private colleges all over the country are struggling to fill their classes.
I'm not sure of the percentages anymore, and my memory slips in terms of the exact number of miles, but I know that in the 80's that 80% of students from within 100(?) miles of Valpo were non-Lutheran while 80% of students from locales beyond that radius were Lutheran. Congregations held "Valpo Sundays" where the university was promoted and often special collections were taken to support the university. The director of church relations organized those events. I believe that the position has been eliminated.
I think this statistical analysis of Lutherans in America is essential reading for anyone thinking about the present condition and future of Valparaiso University.
https://medium.com/migration-issues/a-very-brief-history-of-american-lutheranism-be8b7a26fd59 (https://medium.com/migration-issues/a-very-brief-history-of-american-lutheranism-be8b7a26fd59)
It includes geographic distribution of Lutherans over time, share of Lutherans of the total US population, and the membership trends of the major synods (LCMS, ELCA, WELS, ELCA breakaways).
One quick highlight for those who don't have the time to dig in to it. I don't think it's any coincidence that the sharpest increase in growth in total Lutherans nationwide coincided with the Lutheran purchase of the University in the late 20's and that the total share of Lutherans in America peaks at the same time as the "golden years" of OP Kretzmann's presidency. Since then, both the total number and percentage of US Lutherans has done nothing but decrease. Not to diminish OP at all, but he had the wind at his back in a way that no future leader of the University has since.
Finally, the money quote of the whole article has to be the following: "Arguing about who is facing church-ending-demographic-disaster-soonest is a very Lutheran thing to do." You really should read it all!
I agree with mp91, to compare Valpo with Notre Dame is ridiculous. There is no way an University of Valpo's scale can afford to be niche with its marketing and put religion directly in the school's primary logo. Notre Dame is a different breed, they can get away with that, we can't.
ml2's data is telling. Lutheran populations are shrinking (as are almost every religion's). The best way to market yourselves is to always have a specific target market in mind, but the data is telling us the Lutheran population is not that market. We are already succeeding with Lutheran students, the best way to expand is to tap into other markets and not shrink our student pool by labeling ourselves as religion-first.
Quote from: Chitwood on September 20, 2021, 02:12:56 PM
I agree with mp91, to compare Valpo with Notre Dame is ridiculous. There is no way an University of Valpo's scale can afford to be niche with its marketing and put religion directly in the school's primary logo. Notre Dame is a different breed, they can get away with that, we can't.
ml2's data is telling. Lutheran populations are shrinking (as are almost every religion's). The best way to market yourselves is to always have a specific target market in mind, but the data is telling us the Lutheran population is not that market. We are already succeeding with Lutheran students, the best way to expand is to tap into other markets and not shrink our student pool by labeling ourselves as religion-first.
And exactly how many people outside of alumni, current students and people in the city of Valparaiso know that the "crown" shaped part of the logo is the roof of a Lutheran chapel sanctuary??
ZEROShow the logo to a bunch of Lutherans and 99% percent of them would not know in that context that it depicts part of the university's chapel.
You think we are "succeeding" with Lutheran students? That couldn't be farther from the truth.
Zero seniors from the class of 2021 at Concordia Lutheran High School in Fort Wayne (the community that was the driving force behind purchasing VU) when surveyed said they were going to Valpo. VU should be embarrassed with the lack of effort they have put forth in recruiting the Lutheran community. I get it, demographics are declining, but that doesn't explain how you can go from getting 5-10% of a Lutheran high school class to 0% at a high performing academic school with alumni on the faculty.
Associating the chapel with the logo means something to me and should be readily recognizable to any alumni. Thinking that any person, let alone an 18-19 year old senior in high school, is going to associate the Beacon logo with the religious symbolism of the chapel sanctuary is far fetched unless they already have toured the campus. If it was a steeple... then maybe you have a point, but that shape is not universally known as being associated with a church.
First they came for the Crusader...then they came for the Chapel....
Quote from: FWalum on September 20, 2021, 03:17:47 PM
Quote from: Chitwood on September 20, 2021, 02:12:56 PM
I agree with mp91, to compare Valpo with Notre Dame is ridiculous. There is no way an University of Valpo's scale can afford to be niche with its marketing and put religion directly in the school's primary logo. Notre Dame is a different breed, they can get away with that, we can't.
ml2's data is telling. Lutheran populations are shrinking (as are almost every religion's). The best way to market yourselves is to always have a specific target market in mind, but the data is telling us the Lutheran population is not that market. We are already succeeding with Lutheran students, the best way to expand is to tap into other markets and not shrink our student pool by labeling ourselves as religion-first.
And exactly how many people outside of alumni, current students and people in the city of Valparaiso know that the "crown" shaped part of the logo is the roof of a Lutheran chapel sanctuary?? ZERO
Show the logo to a bunch of Lutherans and 99% percent of them would not know in that context that it depicts part of the university's chapel.
You think we are "succeeding" with Lutheran students? That couldn't be farther from the truth. Zero seniors from the class of 2021 at Concordia Lutheran High School in Fort Wayne (the community that was the driving force behind purchasing VU) when surveyed said they were going to Valpo. VU should be embarrassed with the lack of effort they have put forth in recruiting the Lutheran community. I get it, demographics are declining, but that doesn't explain how you can go from getting 5-10% of a Lutheran high school class to 0% at a high performing academic school with alumni on the faculty.
Associating the chapel with the logo means something to me and should be readily recognizable to any alumni. Thinking that any person, let alone an 18-19 year old senior in high school, is going to associate the Beacon logo with the religious symbolism of the chapel sanctuary is far fetched unless they already have toured the campus. If it was a steeple... then maybe you have a point, but that shape is not universally known as being associated with a church.
I definitely would say Valpo is succeeding with Lutheran students. It was hard for me to find more current statistics (so please share if you have better numbers), but was able to find a breakdown from 2015.
In 2015, 26% of Valpo's student population was Lutheran. Which is pretty staggering, considering only 1.4% of the country was Lutheran (according to a 2015 study). That definitely sounds like success. Granted, these numbers are several years old and I'm sure this number has decreased since then. Still, we have a history of securing massive Lutheran student enrollments compared to other similarly situated universities.
You have only brought up one high school, so it's difficult to see if this is an outlier or a trend. However, it could also be a signal that a school's religious denomination has become much less important than the past – which would actually support veering away from tying the school's logo to a religious building.
Finally, your point about the building not being readily recognizable to high school students is a fair point. They might not know what the building is based on the picture, but, then again, do we want to include a building in our logo that isn't readily recognizable to non-students/alumni? That's a fair question, that I could see support going either way.
Valpopal – no one is "coming" for the chapel. There is no need to be dramatic. No one wants to tear down the building. We are just trying to have a civilized conversation here about what is best for the University, let's not engage in conspiracy theories and drag the conversation into the gutter.
Several people who are Lutheran have objected to a religious symbol being in the primary logo. Saying so does not mean you are anti-religious.
Quote from: Chitwood on September 20, 2021, 03:46:45 PM
Valpopal – no one is "coming" for the chapel. There is no need to be dramatic. No one wants to tear down the building. We are just trying to have a civilized conversation here about what is best for the University, let's not engage in conspiracy theories and drag the conversation into the gutter.
Several people who are Lutheran have objected to a religious symbol being in the primary logo. Saying so does not mean you are anti-religious.
I wasn't being dramatic, I was offering a little bit of humor. Unfortunately, you are the one not only dramatic but over-dramatic. Who accused you of wanting "to tear down the building"? What is this crap about "conspiracy theories" and an attempt to "drag the conversation into the gutter"? Who ever accused anyone of being "anti-religious"? Seriously, get a grip, guy!
Sorry lol. Usually, saying you are "coming" for a building typically means trying to get it canceled or torn down. It sounded like that's what you were referring to. There have been a lot of weird conspiracy-esqe generalizations made on these message boards recently (from denying the Crusades to the University supposedly "ignoring" alumni poll questions), so I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
Finally, in the words of Norm McDonald, if I couldn't tell it was a joke, that means you need to be funnier :)
Quote from: mp91 on September 20, 2021, 03:42:19 PM
I definitely would say Valpo is succeeding with Lutheran students. It was hard for me to find more current statistics (so please share if you have better numbers), but was able to find a breakdown from 2015.
In 2015, 26% of Valpo's student population was Lutheran. Which is pretty staggering, considering only 1.4% of the country was Lutheran (according to a 2015 study). That definitely sounds like success. Granted, these numbers are several years old and I'm sure this number has decreased since then. Still, we have a history of securing massive Lutheran student enrollments compared to other similarly situated universities.
Yes, it has declined some since 2015. Here are some of the numbers I have at hand (the number of Lutheran undergrads by denomination, % identifying as Lutheran, and % identifying as Lutheran excluding no religious affiliation information):
2006 (Total Undergrads 2963, with 149 no religious affiliation)
ELCA 438 15.15% 17.06%
LCMS 603 20.85% 23.49%
Others 62 2.14% 2.42%
WELS 24 0.83% 0.93%
1127 38.97% 43.90%
2009 (Total Undergrads 2892, with 325 no religious affiliation)
ELCA 358 12.38% 13.95%
LCMS 465 16.08% 18.11%
Others 69 2.39% 2.69%
WELS 9 0.31% 0.35%
901 31.15% 35.10%
2019 (Total Undergrads 3011, with 507 no religious affiliation)
ELCA 108 3.59% 4.31%
LCMS 221 7.34% 8.83%
Others 181 6.01% 7.23%
WELS 8 0.27% 0.32%
518 17.20% 20.69%
2020 (Total Undergrads 2737, with 427 no religious affiliation)
ELCA 86 3.14% 3.72%
LCMS 184 6.72% 7.97%
Others 225 8.22% 9.74%
WELS 8 0.29% 0.35%
503 18.38% 21.77%
Demographic challenges aside, what leaps off the page is the precipitous decline in LCMS students in 16 years and the large increase in Other Lutheran. (I'm guessing that the Other category includes some students from NALC congregations that may have been former ELCA).
Quote from: Chitwood on September 20, 2021, 02:12:56 PM
I agree with mp91, to compare Valpo with Notre Dame is ridiculous. There is no way an University of Valpo's scale can afford to be niche with its marketing and put religion directly in the school's primary logo. Notre Dame is a different breed, they can get away with that, we can't.
ml2's data is telling. Lutheran populations are shrinking (as are almost every religion's). The best way to market yourselves is to always have a specific target market in mind, but the data is telling us the Lutheran population is not that market. We are already succeeding with Lutheran students, the best way to expand is to tap into other markets and not shrink our student pool by labeling ourselves as religion-first.
You guys are missing the point. Appeal to the Lutheran market, yes. Focus on the Lutheran market, no. We can, and should, market ourselves as a
Christian faith-based institution with a strong Lutheran heritage. That way we appeal to various Christian denominations and avoid relying on a shrinking Lutheran base to maintain enrollment.
(We are NOT succeeding in the Lutheran market, BTW. No school that fails to get even 1 out of 113 graduating seniors from a high school less than 100 miles away can make that statement.)
I believe there is a sizable group of kids - and parents - who are attracted to faith based schools who offer a solid educational experience without all of the woke culture, faculty lounge nonsense. If you doubt what I say take a look at the enrollment numbers at Wheaton, Taylor, St. Thomas, Calvin etc. Those of you who are parents of kids high school age or older know what I am talking about - you want value for your money, perhaps you want your kid to meet people who are like-minded, and who won't have to go through an indoctrination center to get his/her degree.
From what I have read lately I'm not sure if we are in the process of joining the woke crowd. It seems to me that going woke - which has ever-changing standards, is judgmental, keeps a record of wrongs, and is vindictive - are all things that Jesus tells us NOT to be.
If we don't adopt this marketing approach we will become just another high priced private school. In the next 10 years many in that category will go down. Let's not be one of them.
Paul
Quote from: Chitwood on September 20, 2021, 04:13:25 PM
Sorry lol. Usually, saying you are "coming" for a building typically means trying to get it canceled or torn down. It sounded like that's what you were referring to. There have been a lot of weird conspiracy-esqe generalizations made on these message boards recently (from denying the Crusades to the University supposedly "ignoring" alumni poll questions), so I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
Finally, in the words of Norm McDonald, if I couldn't tell it was a joke, that means you need to be funnier :)
My comment was based upon a standard pattern used in sarcastic humor. Check the following from
The New Yorker for an example:
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/first-they-came-for (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/first-they-came-for)
However, I will forgive anyone who cites Norm, one of my favorites!
Quote from: valpopal on September 20, 2021, 05:11:17 PMHowever, I will forgive anyone who cites Norm, one of my favorites!
May he Rest In Peace.
78Crusader – Of course Valpo should still promote its Christian-based values! I'm not saying they should abandon one of the unique aspects of the University. I'm just saying it should not be the primary logo. You can continue to appeal to Lutheran students, without making the chapel the logo. That's all I'm saying. Abandoning the Lutheran/Christian principles of the school would be a mistake – I 100% agree – I just don't think it should be the focus of the primary logo that is supposed to attract people of all walks of life (including non-religious or other religious affiliated people).
Next, 21.8% of the student population being Lutheran is super high. I don't know how people can say we are not succeeding with Lutheran students when over 1 out of every 5 students on campus identifies as at least partially Lutheran. That's still a huge number.
You can't base conclusions off of one high school lol. That's like saying Indiana high school basketball sucks because Evansville Central High School didn't produce any D1 players this year. Your sample size is just too small.
Finally, while I agree on continuing our tradition of Lutheran/Christian values, I disagree that Calvin, Wheaton, and St. Thomas are schools we should emulate. With all due respect to those fine institutions, Valpo should be aiming higher. I don't like the idea of Valpo being pigeonholed into being a school where the perception is that religion comes first. I know a great deal of students back in high school who would not even consider those schools because people (rightfully or wrongfully) thought they were focused more on religious values than education. Again, I'm not saying this is the correct perception, but that is the perception to high school students. We should be competing with other mid-major schools, not niche institutions. Valpo should focus more on competing with schools like Loyola, Xavier, Ball State, UW-Milwaukee, Belmont, Dayton, Iona, Gonzaga, Toledo, and Northern Illinois, not Calvin and Wheaton. (Or Taylor, which is a school you mentioned that I have never even heard of)
Hasn't it been decided that, moving forward, the "flame shield" will be the primary logo? All this discussion is about a theoretical secondary logo, that the University does not even own the rights to (yet). Which, btw, I think the logo Bryan designed is awesome (but I hate the name "beacons", blech)
Also, about the perception that religion comes first at Valpo...I was recently having a discussion with my inlaws, and somehow the topic of Christian colleges came up and that they didn't really think of Valpo as "Christian school", even though they knew it was Lutheran affiliated. I'm not really sure what their criteria was, but I told them that we were required to take theology courses, which surprised them. They asked if there was a morning chapel break, which I told them there was but it was optional to attend.
Exactly. To most non-Lutherans, Valpo is not even thought of as a super religious school. That's a good thing. Neither is Loyola, Georgetown, Gonzaga, or several others institutions that also celebrate Christian values.
The point of the University is not to be a religious school, but an academic school with a splash of Christian values. That's why several of us have been saying making the chapel the primary logo would be a mistake, because it goes against the perception of the University, as well as the goals of the University.
And, you're right, much of this discussion is theoretical because the University does not own the rights and likely will never acquire them because of several reasons we have laid out in this discussion. I agree, it's a cool logo, I just don't think it's realistic to want to acquire it as our #1 primary logo.
Quote from: Chitwood on September 22, 2021, 11:20:30 AMYou can't base conclusions off of one high school lol. That's like saying Indiana high school basketball sucks because Evansville Central High School didn't produce any D1 players this year. Your sample size is just too small.
24 students from Lutheran HS of Indianapolis are currently attending Valpo
Indiana University-Purdue University - Indianapolis (IUPUI)
59 Students
University of Indianapolis
55 Students
Purdue University
51 Students
Indiana University - Bloomington
41 Students
Ball State University
40 Students
Butler University
39 Students
Taylor University
24 Students
Valparaiso University
24 Students
Indiana State University
20 Students
Franklin College
19 Students
https://www.niche.com/k12/lutheran-high-school-of-indianapolis-indianapolis-in/
Quote from: Chitwood on September 22, 2021, 01:25:55 PM
Exactly. To most non-Lutherans, Valpo is not even thought of as a super religious school. That's a good thing. Neither is Loyola, Georgetown, Gonzaga, or several others institutions that also celebrate Christian values.
The point of the University is not to be a religious school, but an academic school with a splash of Christian values. That's why several of us have been saying making the chapel the primary logo would be a mistake, because it goes against the perception of the University, as well as the goals of the University.
And, you're right, much of this discussion is theoretical because the University does not own the rights and likely will never acquire them because of several reasons we have laid out in this discussion. I agree, it's a cool logo, I just don't think it's realistic to want to acquire it as our #1 primary logo.
That may be your personal preference (ask a hundred people, get a hundred different opinions), but that is a VERY weak value proposition for a private Christian faith-based university with a $60,000 sticker price. No strategic marketing guru on earth would say that's a big enough differentiator. You either stand for something or you stand for nothing. Mixing a dab of religion in your vanilla milkshake isn't enough to get people who like that flavor to pay a premium for "a dab" of it. And people who don't value a dab of religion, just want a vanilla milkshake. Past administrations have adopted exactly the strategy you're suggesting and have failed miserably. Everyone thinks they're a marketer.
Quite honestly, several mainstream Protestant denominations have adopted that same failed strategy under the mistaken impression that a watered down Gospel message will attract more people. What they fail to understand is that people who like watered down Christianity are also comfortable with staying home and "doing their own thing." Bottom line - whoever said the university needs to do a better job of catering to their largest demographic group by far (serious-minded Lutheran families and other Christians) hit the nail on the head. Athiests, Satanists, Humanists, shallow people who never had a deep thought about anything, Muslims and people of other religions, and the like are a complete waste of time from a marketing standpoint. They're all 1-offs.
All of this said, I can tell we finally have a leader who understands growth strategy marketing and is going to get this university going down a successful path, dusting off its core spiritual values that were foolishly tossed to the side and building on them once again. As to your worry about the chapel on a logo being too "churchy," you may want to brace yourself. I don't think we've seen anything yet.
WH –
You make two excellent points: (1) everyone has a different opinion on how to mesh religion and education (and that's a good thing), and (2) most successful marketing campaigns focus on a niche and hammer it home (i.e. a bakery that sells everything likely will not be a successful financially as one that only sells cupcakes and has a stronger reputation/identity). Everyone that knows anything about marketing understands that focusing on the target market typically results in the best output.
Where I challenge your argument is that you are conflating what is best from a marketing perspective with what is best from the University perspective. Now, certainly, this is an area of contention and (going back to excellent point #1) people have differing opinions on this. But, there are two competing ideals here. We want growth, but we also want a sustainable, reflective university identity.
If you are only concerned about expansion numbers, yes, you can probably grow the quickest by leaning hard into the uber-religious, Lutheran focused, super conservative right-wing crowd. You can go niche and make it work. You will have a smaller target market, but have a larger share of that market. That's one avenue. This is the avenue you prefer WH, where you say forget about atheists and Muslims because they don't fit your market. The only question is – is that what's best for the University's reputation and identity? It sounds like several people on here say yes. And that's certainly one way to look at it.
Others, like me, may say the University is not better off by rejecting people of other faiths and only targeting people with conservative trains of thought. People like me follow Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers ideal that we should make marketplaces of ideas where people of different backgrounds and opinions can meet and express themselves. And that this will create a better product and a better society. Under this viewpoint, it may not be prudent to go down the Taylor University or Bob Jones University route.
Currently, Valpo has a decent mix of both concepts. We have academic based priorities splashed with religious principles. It is possible to have a middle ground. That's where we live right now.
So yes, if you want to go and change the direction of the University to be super-Christian, that's one path and, you're right, that may be the quickest to growth. But is it best for the University overall? My only point is that you are equating two very different goals as one.
Also, I have no problem with a "churchy" logo... Just as long as it's not the primary logo ;)
Quote from: Chitwood on September 22, 2021, 04:36:03 PM
WH –
You make two excellent points: (1) everyone has a different opinion on how to mesh religion and education (and that's a good thing), and (2) most successful marketing campaigns focus on a niche and hammer it home (i.e. a bakery that sells everything likely will not be a successful financially as one that only sells cupcakes and has a stronger reputation/identity). Everyone that knows anything about marketing understands that focusing on the target market typically results in the best output.
Where I challenge your argument is that you are conflating what is best from a marketing perspective with what is best from the University perspective. Now, certainly, this is an area of contention and (going back to excellent point #1) people have differing opinions on this. But, there are two competing ideals here. We want growth, but we also want a sustainable, reflective university identity.
If you are only concerned about expansion numbers, yes, you can probably grow the quickest by leaning hard into the uber-religious, Lutheran focused, super conservative right-wing crowd. You can go niche and make it work. You will have a smaller target market, but have a larger share of that market. That's one avenue. This is the avenue you prefer WH, where you say forget about atheists and Muslims because they don't fit your market. The only question is – is that what's best for the University's reputation and identity? It sounds like several people on here say yes. And that's certainly one way to look at it.
Others, like me, may say the University is not better off by rejecting people of other faiths and only targeting people with conservative trains of thought. People like me follow Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers ideal that we should make marketplaces of ideas where people of different backgrounds and opinions can meet and express themselves. And that this will create a better product and a better society. Under this viewpoint, it may not be prudent to go down the Taylor University or Bob Jones University route.
Currently, Valpo has a decent mix of both concepts. We have academic based priorities splashed with religious principles. It is possible to have a middle ground. That's where we live right now.
So yes, if you want to go and change the direction of the University to be super-Christian, that's one path and, you're right, that may be the quickest to growth. But is it best for the University overall? My only point is that you are equating two very different goals as one.
Also, I have no problem with a "churchy" logo... Just as long as it's not the primary logo ;)
Brilliantly stated! Well done.
Count me in with the marketplace of ideas camp. Religion will always be important to Valpo. But, I like the current mix. I don't want it to become a religion-first institution.
Agreed. Valpo should always be a basketball-first institution ;D
From Chitwood:
Others, like me, may say the University is not better off by rejecting people of other faiths and only targeting people with conservative trains of thought. People like me follow Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers ideal that we should make marketplaces of ideas where people of different backgrounds and opinions can meet and express themselves. And that this will create a better product and a better society. Under this viewpoint, it may not be prudent to go down the Taylor University or Bob Jones University route.
-----------------
This is incredibly well-stated. I will add that there is no reason that Valpo cannot have excellence in religious areas for those who value that. If there are prospective students out there who feel that they need everyone around them to have the same religious beliefs, they can go elsewhere (and will likely fail miserably in their chosen career directions if they do not learn to accept and respect people from a wide range of beliefs).
No issue with having the chapel in "a" logo - just not the only logo. Frankly, the shield is excellent.
Just thought I'd post the VU Mission Statement that every freshman is required to read and under which all programs at the university proceed. I think "grounded in the Lutheran tradition" and "to lead and serve in both church and society" suggest a bit more religious conviction than "an academic school with a splash of Christian values."
VALPARAISO UNIVERSITY MISSION STATEMENT
Valparaiso University, a community of learning dedicated to excellence and grounded in the Lutheran tradition of scholarship, freedom, and faith, prepares students to lead and serve in both church and society.
Like it or not, Valparaiso University is a business. More specifically, it's a micro business in decline in a market vertical in decline. Saying "I like it the way it is" is not an option.
Micro businesses can be successful, but they have to cater to a niche market and stay true to it. Valpo hasn't done that. They have to stay true to themselves and Valpo hasn't done that. They have to staff up with employees fully committed to the institution's mission and values, and Valpo has failed miserably to do that. At the end of the day, addressing these issues isn't the quickest way to a turnaround, it's the only way. If anyone has a better idea, supported by tried and true business principles, I'd love to see your plan.
Quote from: Chitwood on September 22, 2021, 04:36:03 PMthe uber-religious, Lutheran focused, super conservative right-wing crowd. You can go niche and make it work
Quote from: Chitwood on September 22, 2021, 04:36:03 PMUnder this viewpoint, it may not be prudent to go down the Taylor University or Bob Jones University route.
Quote from: Chitwood on September 22, 2021, 04:36:03 PMSo yes, if you want to go and change the direction of the University to be super-Christian,
Where on earth do you get these thoughts? Who suggested anything of this nature? The Chapel roof line is shown in an illustration and we are now trying to be Bob Jones? Did you graduate from Valpo?
I go back further than probably anyone on this board. When I was a student, Valpo was about 75% Lutheran and mostly Missouri Lutheran. Yes, the Chapel was mostly full on a Sunday morning but we also had students burn down the administration building during the same time frame. No one at Valpo was anything like your notion and in fact I had classmates, who were raised in the Lutheran church whose pastors told them to be aware of the teaching at Valpo and to not listen because we had professors who were not following synod teachings to the letter of the law.
"uber-religious, Lutheran focused" That makes zero and I repeat, zero sense. Lutherans and in particular German Lutherans coming from the Midwest, don't wear their faith on their sleeve. It is a very private matter between themselves and God. To think that Valpo would somehow swing wildly in a different direction by trying to attract Lutheran students is patently absurd.
Chitwood,
I'm curious what the basis is for you having stated that "to most non-Lutherans, Valpo is not even thought of as a super religious school."
Please explain how you developed this impression.
And unless you can provide something substantial to support your assertion, you have almost certainly fallen into the same trap which you previously accused 78crusader of falling into: drawing conclusions from a small sample size, one based on your personal experiences.
I also found some comments in your recent response to wh as rather apparently lacking in logic. Thus, it should not come as a surprise to anyone that mp91, and in particular, vu84v2, thought this response was something worthy of praise.
Wh could not be more correct in pointing out that Valparaiso University is first and foremost a business entity. And therefore that it is essential the University do what is in its best interests in terms of viability at all times, completely disregarding such arbitrary ideas as living up to selected ideals of Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers — ideals that were broadly intended for a nation, mind you, not for the long-term viability of a private college/university.
Furthermore, more prominently featuring Valparaiso University's Lutheran heritage in terms of its approach to recruitment or its curriculum does not compromise freedom of speech principles or the concept of "the marketplace of ideas," a term which the founding fathers did not use. Or should we expect that in this scenario restrictions upon free speech would be set in place for Valpo's students and faculty?
You are also definitionally advocating for the University to adopt an idealistic approach in conducting its business operations rather than a more business/marketing oriented approach. How long will this kind of an approach be sustainable for Valpo at a time when there are already serious concerns existing over its sustainability, and the school has just suffered two public relations disasters (Confucius Institute and the logo fiasco)?
You entirely misunderstand that what serves the University best from the business/marketing/sustainability perspective is without question what is also best for it from the University perspective. After all, what will your, mp91, and vu84v2's perceptions of the University's reputation and/or identity matter if the University at some point in the future is forced to cease operations due to a low enrollment?
Essentially, above all other considerations it is in Valparaiso University's best interests that it should continue to exist.
Thus, I am indeed only concerned about "expanding numbers" or at the very least securing them at this moment in time; as we all should be. The University does not currently find itself such a privileged position as to conduct its business dealings in any other fashion.
I must also challenge the line of thinking that Valparaiso University would be "rejecting" people of faiths other than Lutheranism simply by "targeting people with conservative trains of thought" as prospective students.
In no scenario would prospective students of differing religious persuasions be "rejected" from attending Valparaiso University or formally "rejected" by the university community should these students come to enroll at Valpo. Using such charged language as this to me comes across as disingenuous.
You also seem to be equating Lutheranism with conservatism generally. Can a Jew not be a conservative? A muslim?
A very poorly thought out series of comments.
I hope I have made clear to anyone reading my comments that I am not necessarily in favor of Valpo's Lutheran heritage being featured more prominently, or less prominently, for that matter. What I am in favor of is that the school does what is truly in its best interests.
Valpo first.
A very extensive interview in the Torch with President Padilla that includes his views on strategic planning, the nickname and mascot, etc.
http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_5677c530-176e-11ec-a5d6-d307481496c4.html
Okay, let's handle these comments in order.
Valpopal – exactly. That's a great mission statement, "community of learning" that is "grounded" in Lutheran traditions. It emphasizes the Christian-based values of the University while also noting that it is a community of learning first and foremost with those values guiding the way.
WH – you are correct, Valpo is a business. But, businesses make decisions all the time based on not only financials but also reputation and principles. For example, a lot of goods can be made cheaper under poor working conditions overseas, but businesses often choose to make products in the US even if it costs more. Again, it's a cost-benefit analysis that includes several different factors (profit is just one of those factors – but you rightfully note, it is among the most important).... Additionally, no idea what you are referring to where you say the University has not staffed itself with people that are fully committed to the University's mission and values. But, I have only had wonderful interactions with staff members and haven't heard any complaints otherwise. Interested to see what you have to say on this.
Vu72 – it was WH that suggested the University should become uber-religious and disregard non-Lutheran marketing strategies. This was beyond the chapel logo (obviously that would not tip us upside down), but it was about a complete change in market strategy. WH believes we should compare ourselves to religious schools like Taylor, Calvin, and others. If this strategy was taken, things would change because it is in contrast to the University's marketing strategy of the last 35 years (and maybe more). Sure, if we take this path, it's highly unlikely we would end up like Bob Jones, but we would end up like Taylor and those other schools that are super religious. Similarly, if we were to have a heavy religious marketing strategy, our competitors in the marketplace begin to shift from Ball State, Loyola, Western Michigan, etc. to schools like Taylor, Liberty, Calvin, and others. So, even if we are different, we will be grouped with them. And, for the record, yes I did go to Valpo. That's why I care about the University's direction.
JBC1824 –
To your first question, I have lived in Indiana my entire life and have interacted with several hundred students and even more Indiana natives who are friends/family. I have also been a student at Valpo. And, I have also worked in Chicago, where I have routinely discussed Valpo with people from all over the country. So, I believe this is a decent sample size to at least put forth a credible opinion on the perception of the University to outsiders. Even on this board, there have been several who have agreed that university is not viewed as "super religious" to non-Lutherans (and some believe this is to the University's detriment). So, if you don't believe me, there is other circumstantial supporting evidence. But, again, this is my perception.
Next, it's perfectly fine if the only objective is the business of the University. But, if that was the case – why close the Confucius Institute? It was bringing in business from Asia. The reason why it was closed was because it was in the University's best interest from a reputation perspective. Not everything can be black-and-white. Sometimes making the "right" or "idealistic" decision can reap rewards, even in the face of momentary financial constraints. The more substantial debate is what is considered the "right" thing to do. Also, focusing only on expanding numbers right now is flawed logically because you are focusing only on the short-term future of the University, not long-term growth. One could argue that the "ideals" that you brushed aside could actually be more beneficial in the long run. But again, you make several valid points. I just think you're being a little shortsighted in your argument. All businesses understand the most successful are those that can balance short-term goals with long-term objectives. All I'm saying is that the short-term goal of increasing student population must also be balanced with what the University "wants to be" in the future. Sustainability (and staying open) is essential. I just would argue that sustainability and forging a powerful reputation/identity are not mutually exclusive.
For the record, I am well aware that the founding fathers never used the term marketplace of ideas (it was Justice Douglas and Holmes who popularized the phrase); however, anyone who has studied constitutional history or read the Federalist papers knows that the basis of the phrase originates all the way back to Jefferson and the founding fathers. You will often hear Jefferson credited for the principal. I agree featuring Lutheran heritage does not compromise free speech in itself, but creating monolithic groups does limit diversity of speech, which can be problematic. It's never good to be in an echo chamber.Appealing to Lutherans is perfectly fine. But, when you get to the point where someone like WH says we should ignore all other religions and focus only on ourselves, that's when diversity of speech can be in jeopardy.Once again, it's important to note, I agree with continuing our Lutheran traditions. I just disagree with WH's Lutheran/Christian only focused marketing strategy.
As to your final point, you misread the exchanges. WH argued that we should not market at all to people of different religions, not that we should market to conservatives. So, yes, if you disregard people of other faiths, that will make it less likely for them to attend the University. That's just common sense. Perhaps, the word "ignore" is more precise than "reject", but the results are the same.
Chitwood - You have a bad habit of misrepresenting people's comments. You may want to work on that. I never referred to Calvin or Taylor Universities, and never heard of Bob Jones University until I found it in Wikipedia. You invented that. More, I never so much as suggested that I would like Valpo to pattern itself after anyone. I'm not Lutheran, but I have great respect for the Lutheran faith and what it represents to all Protestants. One of my dearest friends is Lutheran - Missouri Synod. I want Valpo to be Valpo in the exact way '72 described it - more the way it used to be spiritually, yet welcoming to everyone. As to your comment that making ends meet isn't the most important responsibility in running a business (my paraphrase), apparently business dynamics is not within your purview. I don't know what else to say.
Quote from: Chitwood on September 23, 2021, 04:48:44 PMOkay, let's handle these comments in order.
Valpopal – exactly. That's a great mission statement, "community of learning" that is "grounded" in Lutheran traditions. It emphasizes the Christian-based values of the University while also noting that it is a community of learning first and foremost with those values guiding the way.
I didn't put the rest of your post in the quote because I really thought you had taken what most of the other commentator said to the extreme. Maybe extreme is not the right word, but somewhere beyond what they were trying to get across to you. Who said that VU should become an uber-religious university? Who said anything about Calvin, Taylor or Bob Jones Universities. Speaking for myself, VU should not become another average quasi secular university with no focus or identity. It should not try to become all things to all people, there are 100s if not thousands of those schools and we have been heading down that path. In my opinion it is pretty simple, perhaps you didn't catch it in my previous post, and it pretty much covers what a Christian school for the laity (the average person) should look like. I will even put it in a larger font...
O. P. Kretzmann: "It is this positive and aggressive approach to the problems of a changing world which enables us to face the future of this particular University with absolute confidence in its destiny. Only the school with a Christian orientation can today stand before the rising generation and say: We have something to offer you which you can find nowhere else. Others may try to make men scientific; we must do that-and make them wise. Others may give men knowledge; we must give them that-and understanding. Others may try to make men useful; we must do that-and we must make them noble. We are not asking you to come to an ivory tower to escape from the realities of life or to a market-place where the voices and minds of men are confused by the immediate and material things of life. We are able to give you the fellowship of men and women whose respect for Truth is not vitiated by doubts concerning its reality and permanence. We are able to offer you a school which recognizes the supreme dignity and worth of the individual human being. We are committed to the principle that the destiny of a Christian University lies in the quality of the men and women who are graduated from its halls rather than in quantitative production. Our future lies in the development of men and women, perhaps relatively few in number, whose quality will be so high that they will exert an influence on society which cannot be measured in terms of numbers."That pretty much covers it. Christian morals. Don't overthink it. I am doing a bible study on the Epistle of James right now, the Epistle of Christian morals, a very Catholic book of the New Testament. James is so Catholic that Martin Luther originally wanted to exclude it from the canon. Maybe you have read it? It might also help to read something from Karl E. Lutze, associate professor emeritus of theology. Karl was the embodiment of Valpo and the above statement made by O.P.. Here is a link to an article about his last book. Into a Wider World. (http://www.valpo.edu/valpomag/2015/09/24/long-journey-toward-equality/) Full disclosure: Karl's first wife Esther d.1994 was the twin sister to my Aunt Martha.
Chitwood,
You were right to acknowledge that your perception of things is only informed by your personal experiences. Other people, including myself, have had very different experiences leading to the development of very different perspectives.
Thus, our perspectives on such things hold little value.
Yes, the Confucius Institute at Valparaiso University appears to in part have been closed because it was not in the university's best interests in terms of its overall reputation to allow this institute to continue operating.
I'm not arguing reputation/identity does not matter, only that whatever serves the university best regarding viability matters far more than any other consideration given recent difficulties.
However, there is another reason why Valpo closed its Confucius Institute which you apparently have not realized. This being that it appears the university has not received any money from the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) since 2019.
From 2010-2019, Valparaiso University reported itself to have received approximately 1.1 million dollars from the CCP.
Statements from Indiana Attorney General Todd Rikita's op-ed published on in.gov in follow up to the original announcement of his investigation reveal that at least in terms of the first several weeks of this investigation, Valpo was not found to have received any additional money from the CCP aside from the 1.1 million reported between 2010-2019.
I am rather confident Valpo would not have so successfully hidden its continual receipt of funds from the CCP so as to have prevented the attorney general's office from uncovering this after some weeks of investigation.
Lending further credibility to the idea that Valparaiso University ceased to receive money from the CCP a few years back is the fact that federal law was passed in 2019 prohibiting U.S. colleges and universities from receiving any money from the CCP for anything related to Chinese language studies. And again, 2019 was the last time Valpo reported having received money from the CCP.
For Valpo to have continued receiving money from the CCP any time after 2019 would have been exceedingly foolish and would have subjected the university to far greater criticism and scrutiny than it has already come under because of its Confucius Institute. I find it very hard to believe the school would have been so foolish.
Therefore, your premise is false. Valpo did not do away with its Confucius Institute despite it continuing to bring in money, being good for business in any sense.
It is complete supposition on your part to suggest Valpo's reputation/identity would no be best served by the school placing an increased focus on its Lutheran heritage as opposed to maintaining the status quo or doing otherwise. I'm also curious why you seem to believe this.
How exactly would a greater commitment to a set of religious principles and teachings at a college or university hamper a school's development of a positive reputation/identity? Why can Valpo not forge a "powerful reputation/identity" while simultaneously making such a commitment?
Someone thinking any less of a college or university simply because of its commitment to a set religious principles and teachings would seem to reflect only this person's prejudice.
Private institutions have every right to promote a certain set of beliefs and values. They should not be thought less of because of this.
Focusing on the "short-term numbers" right now is exactly what the University should be doing. To do anything other than this is indeed completely illogical. This is of course because the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior; and future success, is past/present success.
Figuratively speaking, if Valpo can find a way to succeed today, there's a safe bet that by doing the same thing that led to this success, the university will also succeed tomorrow.
Success in the present is also something that has recently eluded Valpo in terms of addressing the gradually decreasing enrollment it has experienced over the past decade or so. If the university were to be so fortunate as to find any solution to this problem, this without question should be something the school continues to pursue.
I believe I view the situation regarding Valpo's long-term sustainability as a bit more dire than most. Again, Valpo has suffered a slow but steady decrease in its enrollment over the past decade-ish, which has resulted in program cuts, etc.
In my opinion, this unfortunate trend in the university's enrollment is rather well-established at this point, and the school has already had ample time to both recognize the trend and take measures to reverse it. I really hope the new president can turn things around.
Then there are the recent public relations nightmares involving the already discussed Confucius Institute and the logo fiasco.
All of this worries me.
I take no issue with your follow-up comments specifically relating to the founding fathers and the phrase "marketplace of ideas."
In my opinion, diversity of speech is not nearly as important as freedom of speech. As you surely know, there are some truly bad ideas out there in the world, among them the restriction of free speech itself. Just because ideas are diverse, this does not mean they are good.
I'm really not concerned about any college or university campus becoming an echo chamber in a real sense while freedom of speech still exists and the school in question operates within the larger context of a western, liberal, democratic society, as Valpo is so fortunate to do.
Again, if any serious concerns exist about Valparaiso University's viability, the school and its leadership should focus exclusively on what will most likely secure its future. If this entails marketing the school solely to Lutherans, or to whomever really, then so be it.
Whatever works.
Yes, "ignore" would have been a better choice of words.
Quote from: Chitwood on September 22, 2021, 04:36:03 PM
Also, I have no problem with a "churchy" logo... Just as long as it's not the primary logo ;)
Quite frankly, this extended thread should have ended right here with Chitwood's statement above.
We all know the primary logo is the shield with the flame "v" inside. It is on the center of the football field, the baseball field, and now has been added to the basketball court. The shield is on all university stationery and every university web page. It is ubiquitous across the campus. It continues to be used by the media, including as the logo in recent sports broadcasts. I saw President Padilla speak this week about VU's future, and he did so from behind a podium with the shield prominently displayed and filling the entire front of the podium.
The shield is the most popular logo among the Valpo community, and it is an appropriate bridge from the past with a nod to the Crusader. Logic suggests it is not going anywhere. Consequently, any discussion about logos including hints of the chapel windows is not about the primary logo but secondary images and whether they are preferable to something like a lighthouse image.
WH – my apologies. It was 78Crusader that said we should emulate Taylor and Calvin. I misquoted you. My bad.... Also, I never said running a successful business should not be the priority. I only said there are other considerations besides finances.... FWalum, It was 78Crusader who suggested we should take a marketing approach similar to Taylor and Calvin and go with a Lutheran-only, religious focus marketing approach. So yes, people on here did suggest that. I would copy the section, but for some reason the "quote" feature of the message board is not working.
JBC – First, I never said your opinion had less value than mine. I presented an opinion and others asked me to provide reasoning for my opinion. I never said my opinion was better than yours or anyone else's.... As far as short-term goals, if you do any business case studies, they always tell you focusing only on short-term goals is a trap. Often, the best option for businesses is to build a sustainable strategy that can be successful both now and in the future.
In terms of the reputation/identity question you had, it's my personal view the University should take more of a Loyola or Gonzaga-style approach. I agree that the Lutheran heritage is important to the University, I just don't think it should be the primary focus of the marketing strategy. If you look at Loyola, they do a very nice job of promoting religious principles but not throwing it in your face. I fear that leaning heavily into religious marketing can be dangerous because you are potentially eliminating silos of students that could be attending the University. Religious numbers are continuing to drop across the country. Moreover, Valpo has stated its intentions to grow and compete more with Midwestern mid-majors. A religious focused marketing strategy changes course to competing with more religious focused universities and not Northern Illinois, Western Michigan, Evansville, IUPUI, etc. because kids who are not looking for a religious-heavy school will continue to choose those universities over us.
Finally, completely disagree on diversity of speech. That should always be a focus of the University, particularly if you want to expand.
And, Valpopal is right. The shield logo is a better design overall and also is better from a marketing perspective because of its broad appeal.
Chitwood - I feel a lot differently knowing you unintentionally attached something someone else actually said to me. I've done it myself. No hard feelings. Enjoy your evening!
Chitwood,
You are missing the point.
Neither of our opinions matter, so long as they are based solely on our personal experiences.
I don't know if I've explained myself well regarding the next topic. I'll try one more time....
Our difference of opinions on whether or not Valpo should focus more on the short or long-term likely reflects how gravely I view the situation as opposed to how I'm assuming you view it.
Valpo has experienced a gradual decrease in its enrollment spanning more than a decade, recently resulting in the university having to make substantial cutbacks. The school has had some time now to both recognize and reverse this downward trend in enrollment, but it has evidently been unsuccessful. The university has also just suffered two completely unprecedented public relations disasters. We do not yet fully understand the impact these will have. Then, we must also consider some of the lingering challenges posed by the pandemic.
It is in this context that I would like Valpo to focus primarily on how its enrollment problem can best be solved in the here and now as opposed to fixating on what might happen in the future if the rate of religiousness across the country were to continue to drop.
Therefore, if by more prominently featuring its Lutheran heritage Valpo could get rid of the enrollment issues, the university should do so with nothing but the utmost alacrity.
Furthermore, I will reiterate if Valpo were so fortunate as to find whatever "today's" solution to the school's ongoing enrollment problem is, there's good reason to think this solution will also work for the university "tomorrow," or the foreseeable future.
There is no reason to think one day, all of a sudden, and without any warning whatsoever, any formerly successful approach to handling this problem would altogether lose effectiveness. There would be indicators of change coming along the way, providing the university with opportunities to respond accordingly.
At the very least, successfully identifying and implementing "today's" solution will guarantee that for the university there will be a "tomorrow."
The idea of sacrificing the viability of the university at such a tumultuous time as this in favor of your individual perceptions pertaining to the amount of "diversity of speech" on campus or what you consider to be the school's reputation/identity is completely unreasonable.
And this is exactly what you proposed doing when you wrote, "if you are only concerned about expansion numbers, yes, you can probably grow the quickest by leaning hard into the uber-religious, Lutheran focused, super conservative right-wing crowd."
And, "the only question is – is that what's best for the University's reputation and identity?"
Therefore, I don't believe we will find much common ground here.
You are also continuing to operate under the assumption that by more prominently featuring its Lutheran heritage this necessarily means Valpo would not be positioning itself well for the long-term. While this may be true, it may not be. We don't know.
For instance, if of the religiously affiliated schools across the country, more and more begin distancing themselves from their religious traditions, the other religious schools would almost certainly then see something of an uptick in interest from those prospective students wanting a more religiously inspired college/university experience.
I'm confident this is something you've considered.
Regarding some of your most recent comments on diversity of speech...
You said you disagree with what I wrote "completely."
Therefore, am I to assume you do not believe there are truly bad ideas in the world and that some of these ideas have no place on a college/university campus?
And now you are saying diversity of speech should "always be the focus particularly if you want to expand."
But again, in your earlier comments you said Valpo could "grow the quickest by leaning hard into the uber-religious, Lutheran focused, super conservative, right-wing crowd."
Please get your story straight.
And once again, please explain to me why a college/university increasing its commitment to a set of religious principles and teachings would hinder this school's in its development of a positive reputation/identity?
Why are being very religious, Lutheran focused, very conservative, or right-wing negatives in your view?
Your opinions almost certainly reflect a degree of prejudice on your part.
JBC –
1) Your argument about doing what's best to grow quickly is perfectly fine. I have said from the beginning that Valpo has two considerations – expanding enrollment and creating a more refined reputation/identity. These goals could be different or they could be the same. It's just a matter of your preferred plan for the future.
Your argument that what is best for today is what's best for tomorrow is completely plausible. You may be right. You keep acting as if I have some superiority and believe all plans besides mine are inferior and should be ignored. Quite the contrary! I am just presenting another school of thought (a.k.a. my preferred plan).
2) The idea that we would be "sacrificing the viability of the University" by welcoming people of diverse backgrounds is a little far-fetched. You act like diversity of speech is something new, but it has always been part of the University's mission. The University has always openly stated that it wants people from different parts of the country, different economic statuses, different races/ethnicities, and different religions to come together on campus. This is part of Valpo's values and also part of the Lutheran-values of the University of being welcoming to all types of people. This isn't some radical agenda, it's something that has always been at the core of the school.
I understand your point of Lutheran-only marketing would be best for quick expansion (that may or may not be true), but I don't think you have to abandon the school's mission of diversifying the student body in order to grow. Again, I want to emphasize that the University should continue its Lutheran and Christian marketing efforts; however, I disagree that it should be our ONLY marketing efforts... Or even our primary marketing efforts.
3) I am not sure why you keep trying to weirdly label me as being prejudice. Just because I don't think the chapel should be in our primary logo (or that I don't believe we should have religious-only marketing) that means I am supposed to be a bigot? It's kind of awkward and I'm not sure what you are trying to gain by this line of thought.
It's not that religious-only marketing or appealing to conservative students is a bad thing for your reputation/identity. As I have said multiple times on here, I am just saying it's a different reputation/identity. And, therefore, one has to decide which reputation/identity they prefer moving forward. If it were me, I would rather have the reputation/identity of Loyola, as opposed to that of Taylor or Calvin College. I believe it is best for Valpo (and its efforts to grow in both students and name recognition) to associate itself with other mid-majors and not other small hyper religious schools. Again, Loyola and Depaul have religious principles but also make a point of being welcoming to all types of students. I think that's the best plan, because if you focus only on Lutheran students you're going to alienate those of other religious/nonreligious backgrounds
Seems like the new addition to the MVC is doing pretty well being known as one of the top Christian universities in the US. https://www.theedadvocate.org/2020-best-christian-colleges-universities-america/ (https://www.theedadvocate.org/2020-best-christian-colleges-universities-america/)
Long known as one of the fastest growing Christian universities in the country, Belmont is breaking all-time records for Fall 2021 with significant increases across multiple categories, including a historic total student enrollment projected to exceed 8,750. For the first time in history, Belmont received more than 11,000 applications for admission and expects to welcome more than 2,490 new freshmen and transfer students, a 17.2 percent increase over Fall 2020. Belmont University Makes History With Record-Breaking Fall 2021 Enrollment (https://news.belmont.edu/belmont-university-makes-history-with-record-breaking-fall-2021-enrollment/)
Building from Chitwood's comments, especially those regarding Loyola, what is wrong with following the Jesuit model at Valpo (just in a Lutheran context)? Jesuit universities have strong religious programs for those who seek and value that, along with focused marketing towards Catholic high schools...but they are welcoming of all perspectives and follow a mission that embraces helping students learn to live fulfilling lives that contribute to society (instead of a mission that emphasizes dogma or one set of beliefs).
Again, it seems a few are missing the point here.
In what are trying times for Valpo, we all should be primarily concerned with the university's viability, correct?
Therefore, if by more prominently featuring its Lutheran heritage, the university could most effectively solve its ongoing enrollment problem in the here and now, it should do so, should it not?
And if Valpo's decision-makers were indeed to determine that by more prominently featuring the university's Lutheran heritage the school could most effectively solve its ongoing low enrollment problem, this of course would not and should not entail students of other faiths being "excluded" or "unwelcome" in any true sense of these words.
This is not to say I necessarily believe that this particular strategy would indeed be the most effective way of solving this problem. I have readily admitted I do not know what the best approach would be. I am only saying whatever it is, we should all support it without hesitation — given all of the serious issues faced by our alma mater at this particular point in time.
Thus, Chitwood does not "understand" my "point of Lutheran-only marketing would be the best for quick expansion," because this is of course a point I have not made during this exchange.
I do not care what Valparaiso University does, so long as what it does is follow the surest path towards securing its viability.
Chitwood,
You would indeed be sacrificing the viability of the university by doing anything other than more prominently featuring the school's Lutheran heritage and/or focusing on the recruitment of prospective students identifying as Lutheran, if and only if this were the manner in which Valpo could best handle its problem with low enrollment numbers.
In this same vein, sacrificing the viability of the university is exactly what you proposed doing when you wrote the following comments:
"if you are only concerned about expansion numbers, yes, you can probably grow the quickest by leaning hard into the uber-religious, Lutheran focused, super conservative right-wing crowd."
And, "the only question is – is that what's best for the University's reputation and identity?"
You seem to not understand your own comments. It is not any wonder why you don't understand mine.
It makes no sense whatsoever that you would say I "act like diversity of speech is something new."
I have not written anything which has explicitly stated or implied this.
In fact I have endorsed the idea that Valpo focus on growing its perceived amount of diversity of speech or whatever else should it be the best way for the school to address low enrollment.
I wrote, "If any serious concerns exist about Valparaiso University's viability, the school and its leadership should focus exclusively on what will most likely secure its future. If this entails marketing the school solely to Lutherans, or to whomever really, then so be it."
And in the same context, "whatever works."
Earlier, I wrote, "I hope I have made clear to anyone reading my comments that I am not necessarily in favor of Valpo's Lutheran heritage being featured more prominently, or less prominently, for that matter. What I am in favor of is that the school does what is truly in its best interests."
Though, evidently I did not make this point clear enough so you would understand it.
I have said that just because an idea is "diverse," this does not then necessarily mean it is good. This is only stating the simple truth.
If you don't think more prominently featuring the university's Lutheran heritage lends itself to the development of a positive identity/reputation for the school, then I unequivocally believe this opinion is reflective of your prejudice.
There is no acceptable reason for thinking that prominently featuring a religious heritage should hinder any college/university in its development of a positive identity/reputation.
And if, as you suggested in your most recent series of comments, you believe an academic institution's identity/reputation would be more "refined" by not following the more religious track, I believe this also reflects your prejudice.
This is because what is the opposite of "refined" other than "unrefined?" Thus, to in any way suggest Valpo would be more "unrefined" by becoming more Lutheran focused is both depreciating and insulting.
The definitions of "unrefined" according to Merriam-Webster are as follows:
a). Lacking moral or social cultivation; b). Not separated from dross (something worthless or unwanted essentially), impurity, or unwanted matter.
Furthermore, the way you expressed your viewpoint was rather derisive, was it not?
Once again, you wrote, "if you are only concerned about expansion numbers, yes, you can probably grow the quickest by leaning hard into the uber-religious, Lutheran focused, super conservative right-wing crowd."
Everything which needed to be said here already has been. I am done arguing with you.
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 28, 2021, 03:14:12 PM
Building from Chitwood's comments, especially those regarding Loyola, what is wrong with following the Jesuit model at Valpo (just in a Lutheran context)? Jesuit universities have strong religious programs for those who seek and value that, along with focused marketing towards Catholic high schools...but they are welcoming mof all perspectives and follow a mission that embraces helping students learn to live fulfilling lives that contribute to society (instead of a mission that emphasizes dogma or one set of m
In all due respect, Valpo doesn't need to copy another Christian university's model. It has its own model that has sustained it for 1 1/2 centuries. It just needs to get back to following it, which by every early indication is exactly what President Padilla is going to do.
Quote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 09:25:17 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 28, 2021, 03:14:12 PM
Building from Chitwood's comments, especially those regarding Loyola, what is wrong with following the Jesuit model at Valpo (just in a Lutheran context)? Jesuit universities have strong religious programs for those who seek and value that, along with focused marketing towards Catholic high schools...but they are welcoming mof all perspectives and follow a mission that embraces helping students learn to live fulfilling lives that contribute to society (instead of a mission that emphasizes dogma or one set of m
In all due respect, Valpo doesn't need to copy another Christian university's model. It has its own model that has sustained it for 1 1/2 centuries. It just needs to get back to following it, which by every early indication is exactly what President Padilla is going to do.
Putting aside that they are two different faiths, how do you feel that Valpo's model is different from the Jesuit model? I think that they are quite similar and have been ever since I became involved with Valpo 40 years ago. The points raised previously about connecting more with Lutheran high schools is actually something in which Valpo should emulate what Jesuit universities do.
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 29, 2021, 12:42:36 PM
Quote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 09:25:17 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 28, 2021, 03:14:12 PM
Building from Chitwood's comments, especially those regarding Loyola, what is wrong with following the Jesuit model at Valpo (just in a Lutheran context)? Jesuit universities have strong religious programs for those who seek and value that, along with focused marketing towards Catholic high schools...but they are welcoming mof all perspectives and follow a mission that embraces helping students learn to live fulfilling lives that contribute to society (instead of a mission that emphasizes dogma or one set of m
In all due respect, Valpo doesn't need to copy another Christian university's model. It has its own model that has sustained it for 1 1/2 centuries. It just needs to get back to following it, which by every early indication is exactly what President Padilla is going to do.
Putting aside that they are two different faiths, how do you feel that Valpo's model is different from the Jesuit model? I think that they are quite similar and have been ever since I became involved with Valpo 40 years ago. The points raised previously about connecting more with Lutheran high schools is actually something in which Valpo should emulate what Jesuit universities do.
If the models are similar, there's no need for Valpo to adopt something it already has. Again, Valpo just needs to follow its 150+ year model, and stop trying to reinvent itself as a secular university with a "smidge" of Christianity thrown in to keep the old-timers content.
Remember when this thread was about the potential/chosen new nickname.
Quote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 12:55:30 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 29, 2021, 12:42:36 PM
Quote from: wh on September 29, 2021, 09:25:17 AM
Quote from: vu84v2 on September 28, 2021, 03:14:12 PM
Building from Chitwood's comments, especially those regarding Loyola, what is wrong with following the Jesuit model at Valpo (just in a Lutheran context)? Jesuit universities have strong religious programs for those who seek and value that, along with focused marketing towards Catholic high schools...but they are welcoming mof all perspectives and follow a mission that embraces helping students learn to live fulfilling lives that contribute to society (instead of a mission that emphasizes dogma or one set of m
In all due respect, Valpo doesn't need to copy another Christian university's model. It has its own model that has sustained it for 1 1/2 centuries. It just needs to get back to following it, which by every early indication is exactly what President Padilla is going to do.
Putting aside that they are two different faiths, how do you feel that Valpo's model is different from the Jesuit model? I think that they are quite similar and have been ever since I became involved with Valpo 40 years ago. The points raised previously about connecting more with Lutheran high schools is actually something in which Valpo should emulate what Jesuit universities do.
If the models are similar, there's no need for Valpo to adopt something it already has. Again, Valpo just needs to follow its 150+ year model, and stop trying to reinvent itself as a secular university with a "smidge" of Christianity thrown in to keep the old-timers content.
What specific changes do you feel are needed to follow that model?
In regards to whether substantial changes, towards a religious and/or conservative focused university, will happen; this article offers some insights into whether a movement towards such a sea change will happen.
http://www.valpotorch.com/news/article_d9b01bec-a3f5-11eb-97a1-1b0465fad63b.html
To summarize:
-The student senate rejected an application by the conservative organization, Young Americans for Freedom (YAF), to form a student organization. This was due to concerns the student senate members had about the group's discrimination towards LGBTQ students.
-The student body president (who was very liberal and strongly supported the name change) vetoed this, likely recognizing the right of different views to be expressed.
-President Padilla supported her veto, but also stated "While if I'm gonna be honest with you, I agree with the decision she made. I vehemently disagree with their (YAF's) underlying principles."
The veto decision was correct. However, the President's comments clearly indicate no intention to move from the current model in which there are strong religious programs for those who value and desire that, but an environment that welcomes and respects all views.
Quote from: IndyValpo on September 29, 2021, 01:26:08 PM
Remember when this thread was about the potential/chosen new nickname.
Nothing more aggravating than a voice of reason when I'm beating a dead horse! I guess my work here is done. lol
JBC –
1) I'm still confused as to why you keep taking such a confrontational tone and keep trying to say I am prejudiced despite all evidence. It's especially awkward since we actually agree on several points, mainly that neither of us have all the answers, we want what's best for the University, and that neither of us are opposed to leaning more religious or away from religious marketing as long as it results in long-term viability.
There is really only one area in which we differ. You keep saying that I don't understand my own comments, but it's really quite simple. As I have described several times on here, (1) I don't dispute that becoming more religious focused in marketing may result in higher enrollment in the short-term but (2) I'm not confident that being religious focused in marketing is best for the long-term viability of the University. That's it. It's pretty simple. I'm not sure what you find confusing.
What's best in the short term isn't always what's best in the long term. You say focus on the short-term and don't worry about the long-term. That's a plausible, fine argument. I say, we should take a more business-like approach and be cognizant of both short-term and long-term sustainability. [as an illustration, I would argue the Valpo law school had short-term goals. They wanted to increase enrollment. By doing so, it lowered its standards to attempt to bring in more students and eventually was stripped of certain accreditations which sped up its downfall. By not considering the long-term vision of the school, it may have resulted in it not being viable... Or, it could have been doomed all along. We will never know. Again, I'm just saying short-term and long-term goals can both affect viability.] You and I have two different approaches and both are reasonable, are they not? It's okay to present differing arguments.
2) Yes, you're right, diverse does not necessarily mean good. But, if you don't have differing viewpoints and there are no debates, you don't always know what's "good" or "bad". Similarly, in an educational setting, it's important to not only present arguments but also force people to back up their argument with reasoning and evidence (just like we are here on this message board). That's an important life skill to develop and another reason why diversity of speech can be important with young adults. That's all I was saying.
3) Again, you keep assigning a prejudicial tone to my words when none is existent. You keep saying I am equating non-religious focused with "positive" and religious focused with a negative reputation/identity. I never said this.
I have continually said having a religious-focused marketing plan means the University has a different reputation/identity in public perception. I never said whether that was good or bad, it's just different. It's all about how you are perceived and what schools you are roughly associated with by the general public. Depaul and Calvin College have different perceptions to the public. Which is better? Who knows! They are just different. Again, I never said good or bad. You are just putting words in my mouth for some reason.
If you read my previous comments, you are clearly misrepresenting what was said in regards to the "refined" identity. I explicitly stated Valpo has two primary considerations at the moment – expanding enrollment and "creating a more refined reputation/identity."
As the Oxford English Dictionary states "refined" is defined as "developed or improved so as to be precise or subtle."
That's exactly what I said and what I meant – we need a more precise reputation/identity... Refined = Precise. We need a plan and we need to execute it. It could be your plan or my plan or someone else's plan, just as long as it's a plan!!
This statement was made as a thesis statement and was not a commentary on whether being religious was refined or unrefined. It was identifying a completely different noun. What needs refining is the reputation/identity. Again, you are misrepresenting my statements and trying to assign value that isn't there.
I think everyone agrees that under a new administration the University needs a precise reputation/identity moving forward. That's what I was saying. Please stop accusing me of being prejudice. I don't understand why you keep resorting to name-calling in a simple argument about marketing plans and logos and nicknames. It's perfectly fine to have differing opinions. One does not need to resort to personal attacks for no reason. I have never said anything bad about religion or religious people (in fact, I am one).
Finally, I agree with the idea to create a more Jesuit-style marketing approach.
And, IndyValpo, you're right! This argument has gone too far. Can't wait to get back to arguments about the hardwood! Go Valpo!
Current VU student here who just stumbled upon this thread. While religion is definitely a part of the Valpo identity, I would argue that it is not at all what attracts students here. Almost everyone I've talked to in my 3+ years here, myself included, came to Valparaiso because they wanted to attend a good (Engineering, Meteorology, Nursing, PA, Business, Chemistry, ect) school and they either got a scholarship to come here or wanted to go to a smaller Midwestern school. As someone also mentioned, athletics definitely attract people to go to VU as I know several people who came to Valpo because they wanted to get an engineering degree whilst playing D1 football, an opportunity not as readily obtainable at a bigger school. Anyways, back to what I was previously saying about religion, hyperfocusing on the religious aspects of Valpo likely will not help enrollment and will scare off potential students, if anything.
-VU2022
Quote from: IndyValpo on September 29, 2021, 01:26:08 PM
Remember when this thread was about the potential/chosen new nickname.
No
Does any team have the nickname "Champions?"
Quote from: Just Sayin on October 01, 2021, 10:13:38 PM
Does any team have the nickname "Champions?"
https://masseyratings.com/mascots?m=Champions
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: VU2022 on October 01, 2021, 01:30:10 AM
Current VU student here who just stumbled upon this thread. While religion is definitely a part of the Valpo identity, I would argue that it is not at all what attracts students here. Almost everyone I've talked to in my 3+ years here, myself included, came to Valparaiso because they wanted to attend a good (Engineering, Meteorology, Nursing, PA, Business, Chemistry, ect) school and they either got a scholarship to come here or wanted to go to a smaller Midwestern school. As someone also mentioned, athletics definitely attract people to go to VU as I know several people who came to Valpo because they wanted to get an engineering degree whilst playing D1 football, an opportunity not as readily obtainable at a bigger school. Anyways, back to what I was previously saying about religion, hyperfocusing on the religious aspects of Valpo likely will not help enrollment and will scare off potential students, if anything.
-VU2022
Completely agree! This was my experience as well.
FYI
Akron to close its Confucius Institute.
https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2021/11/08/university-akron-close-its-confucius-institute-next-year-chinese-government-academic-freedom/6339865001/?utm_source=akron-morning-roundup&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20211109&utm_content=article2-readmore (https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2021/11/08/university-akron-close-its-confucius-institute-next-year-chinese-government-academic-freedom/6339865001/?utm_source=akron-morning-roundup&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20211109&utm_content=article2-readmore)
There's something rotten in Denmark about these Confucius Institutes, far more than has been stated publicly. As imbedded as the CCP is everywhere in our naive, over-trusting society and seeing the Biden administration pushing this despite their seeming love affair with China suggests to me that the CCP was using these venues for dark, subversive, dangerous Anti-American activities. All they had to do was wave a dollar bill in front of a bunch of cash-starved universities, and they lined up like lap dogs.
The wave
From the Charlotte 49ers fans forum:
"Glad they changed from Crusaders to Beacons. That should reduce the alarming number of ships crashing in Indiana."
https://twitter.com/brydfly/status/1461816115743666180?s=21
Great, so we are struck with really crappy artwork as our logos...
Valpo Paper Tigers.
The Valpo Pathetic Basketball Teams
I would say Valpo Bottom Dwellers, but that would just be both stating the obvious and piling on at this point.
Vandy Marketing Team to Valpo Marketing Team: "Hold my beer!"
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/03/vanderbilt-logo-criticism-oh-god-its-awful-bring-back-star-v (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/03/vanderbilt-logo-criticism-oh-god-its-awful-bring-back-star-v)
At this point finding a rebranding that was embraced positively may be a bigger challenge.
One word to describe the new mascot: woof
Quote from: mj on August 15, 2022, 09:19:40 AM
One word to describe the new mascot: woof
Actually 2 words... woof woof ;)
Three words: what the hell
Also, has anyone heard of "George" the dog and the fact that it's considered good luck to kiss his headstone before exams?
USC had George Tirebiter.
I can't say I'm disappointed in the new mascot. Truth be told, I was expecting worse than what we got.
Here is what I'm disappointed in -
- removing the inflated Crusader mascot and telling us it was in for "repairs" (which must have been considerable since it never reappeared); IMO the skids were greased from that point on and it was only a matter of time before the name was jettisoned
- having a vote on the Crusader name, without promptly disclosing the results of the vote (maybe the vote totals were released at some point; if so, I'm not aware of it. If the vote totals were released, it was at least a month later after it was announced the Crusader name did not survive). I think the vote was undertaken merely to provide cover for a preordained decision made by a select few at the University
- the name change, from what I can tell, has not received much positive feedback from the community at large, not to mention students or athletes, and didn't accomplish anything other than alienate a good number of alumni and cost the university a bunch of money
- the lighthouse logo just isn't very well done and I'm mystified why the logos on this fan forum board, which IMO are vastly superior, haven't been adopted by the University
Paul
Paul.... I agree. Unfortunately, there is no going back.
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Have a dancing light tower as an antimascot similar in spirit to the Stanford tree.
Quote from: mj on August 15, 2022, 11:17:53 AMAlso, has anyone heard of "George" the dog and the fact that it's considered good luck to kiss his headstone before exams?
I heard about this on a tour of Old Campus at Freshman Orientation. Never heard about it again until now.
Quote from: mj on August 15, 2022, 11:17:53 AM
Also, has anyone heard of "George" the dog and the fact that it's considered good luck to kiss his headstone before exams?
That is something from the 40's & 50's era after "George" had died. His grave is still out there by the trees in the area near the old Law School building.
https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wm4MZH_Tomb_of_the_Old_Campus_Dog (https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wm4MZH_Tomb_of_the_Old_Campus_Dog)
https://www.facebook.com/valparaiso.university/photos/a.486718348631/10156621209308632/?type=3 (https://www.facebook.com/valparaiso.university/photos/a.486718348631/10156621209308632/?type=3)
https://z-upload.facebook.com/valparaisou/posts/10159899005618632 (https://z-upload.facebook.com/valparaisou/posts/10159899005618632)
"
the stone isn't too far from the SigEp house, near the bullpen."
I thought this new mascot thing was a bad joke, but it is not. This is fricking embarrassing. I can understanding changing the nickname from Crusader, and to me it was no big deal. But we look like fricking fools with mascots that look like something created from Nick. Jr.
Perhaps Triumph the Insult Comic Dog can assist - "These mascots are great - for me to poop on!"
Assuming the new mascot is a dog -correct. Anyone have any pictures of this since it has been referenced to something from nickelodeon.
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You don't wanna see it
It's a beautiful thing...the second new t-shirt design will show the dogs lifting their leg on the side of the beacon.
Quote from: Valpo1993 on August 16, 2022, 09:06:26 AM
Assuming the new mascot is a dog -correct. Anyone have any pictures of this since it has been referenced to something from nickelodeon.
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https://www.valpoathletics.com/athletics/news/2022-23/21420/beacon-blaze-selected-as-valparaiso-university-mascots/
Quote from: vu72 on August 16, 2022, 11:46:14 AMQuote from: Valpo1993 on August 16, 2022, 09:06:26 AMAssuming the new mascot is a dog -correct. Anyone have any pictures of this since it has been referenced to something from nickelodeon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://www.valpoathletics.com/athletics/news/2022-23/21420/beacon-blaze-selected-as-valparaiso-university-mascots/
WTF is this.
We have gone from a Crusader, a fierce warrior, to a pair of dogs that like pets behind the ears, licking faces and nachos...
Clearly students involved in the furry community had some part in this.
Quote from: vuny98 on August 16, 2022, 12:17:18 PM
Quote from: vu72 on August 16, 2022, 11:46:14 AMQuote from: Valpo1993 on August 16, 2022, 09:06:26 AMAssuming the new mascot is a dog -correct. Anyone have any pictures of this since it has been referenced to something from nickelodeon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://www.valpoathletics.com/athletics/news/2022-23/21420/beacon-blaze-selected-as-valparaiso-university-mascots/
WTF is this.
We have gone from a Crusader, a fierce warrior, to a pair of dogs that like pets behind the ears, licking faces and nachos...
Clearly students involved in the furry community had some part in this.
Kinda like the salukis! Or those scary Purple Aces?? Or those trees from ISU! Or ... It's a mascot.
Bryan Flynn with yet again with amazing concept design. Just another reminder that the University has dropped the ball every step of the way of this rebrand. (I would link the tweets here, but I am having an issue posting external links - you can find him @brydfly on Twitter)
Instead, the University has given us not one, but two forgettable dogs that have nothing to do with the Lighthouse artwork/theme they have introduced.
Quote from: vuny98 on August 16, 2022, 12:17:18 PM
Quote from: vu72 on August 16, 2022, 11:46:14 AMQuote from: Valpo1993 on August 16, 2022, 09:06:26 AMAssuming the new mascot is a dog -correct. Anyone have any pictures of this since it has been referenced to something from nickelodeon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://www.valpoathletics.com/athletics/news/2022-23/21420/beacon-blaze-selected-as-valparaiso-university-mascots/
WTF is this.
We have gone from a Crusader, a fierce warrior, to a pair of dogs that like pets behind the ears, licking faces and nachos...
Clearly students involved in the furry community had some part in this.
I find it difficult to believe that a group of students that is representative of the entire student population came up with two cartoonish dogs as mascots.
Quote from: vu84v2 on August 16, 2022, 04:40:11 PMQuote from: vuny98 on August 16, 2022, 12:17:18 PMQuote from: vu72 on August 16, 2022, 11:46:14 AMQuote from: Valpo1993 on August 16, 2022, 09:06:26 AMAssuming the new mascot is a dog -correct. Anyone have any pictures of this since it has been referenced to something from nickelodeon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
WTF is this. We have gone from a Crusader, a fierce warrior, to a pair of dogs that like pets behind the ears, licking faces and nachos... Clearly students involved in the furry community had some part in this.
I find it difficult to believe that a group of students that is representative of the entire student population came up with two cartoonish dogs as mascots.
I'm a fairly recent graduate and former student athlete. I am not surprised whatsoever at this outcome.
There is a massive disconnect between students and student-athletes at the school and the rift will grow even further after this rebrand. Only when they share the same seats at the table will progress be made.
The problem is they let students get involved with these decisions. They don't think of the ramifications of these decisions. From all the conversations I have had with alumni I graduated with none of them like the name change. My father-in-law graduated in 1967. Him and his friends were against it as well. I would love to see the results of the survey of the name change. I would bet it didn't support the change. VU should have consult with a marketing consulting group about this. I can't imagine a professional consultant suggesting this.
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The university announced it was dropping the Crusader and seeking a new mascot on February 11, 2021, though many knew the decision had been made much earlier than that time. Here we are almost exactly one and a half years later, and with all that time the best the administration could decide is to have a "Beacons" name strangely paired with a couple of silly children's cartoon dogs as the mascot image. As hundreds of responses on Facebook and other social media indicate, this is a major failure and an unforced error. Many of us have seen what a competent professional designer could create that would not be an embarrassment. In fact, some of the fine examples appear on this page as evidenced by the lantern and the V with lit chapel icons. Therefore, this fan forum and its administrators have done a better job of highlighting successful Beacon imagery than the entire administrative, communications, and marketing process at Valparaiso University! Likewise, a better mascot choice could have been easily achieved, as Bryan Flynn shows in his Twitter post (though he is in error concluding that students voted for the dog mascots): 1559229698344996867[/tweet]][tweet]1559229698344996867[/tweet] (https://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/%5Btweet)
I still cant wrap my head around this no matter how hard i try. We got rid of the crusader and a good logo to have a) beacons b) a cheesy chess queen acting like a lighthouse and an "alternate logo" of a lantern that has an entire blank side/white splotch on the right side to finally c) introduce our mascots as two cartoon dogs that have a "historical reference" to a beloved dog from the 40s.
I will cringe any time i see these logos or mascots anywhere on televesion, sports highlights, or in the community. I definitely wont be buying any Valpo gear moving forward with any of these logos or designs incorporated.
This mascot decision is absolutely embarrassing. When Valpo changed the nickname to Crusader to Beacon, I was indifferent about it. I really didn't care - I thought Valpo had bigger problems to focus their energy than a new nickname - low enrollment, budget, getting quality students, competing with state schools with more funds, etc.
But when I saw this mascot decision, I really have to wonder if the students making this woke (I have to say that and tell it like it is) decision understand the ramifications on how it effects the Valpo brand. I saw some responses and with this mascot decision on Facebook, and I speculate an indirect initiative to move athletics to Div. 3. This has been brought up on the board previously, but now I can see it.
I wouldn't blame these awful decisions on being woke. That is ridiculous. It is one thing to decide the Crusader is not the best name for us (which I personally struggle with, but okay) to selecting an awful name and an even worse mascot. This is so embarrassing. Yet they continue to have the awful brown and gold colors. The entire situation is ridiculous especially considering they need to attract MORE students to the school. Trust me this is doing the exact opposite. Why aren't professionals handling this? This is so important to the future of the school and the decisions are completely destroying it. I don't know ANYONE who is willingly wearing the Beacons and definitely NOT this joke of a mascot.
This is unbelievable. This is marginal at best for an elementary school. For a Division I institution? Pathetic. The school isn't exactly thriving. Going woke leads to going broke. We'll see how this goes, but I'm not optimistic. There probably won't be too many people in the ARC to see these dogs though.
There is one way the university administrators could reverse the overwhelmingly negative responses to the dogs mascot decision and imaginatively turn the tide of opinion. They could follow the "New Coke" model. (If you are not old enough to remember, Google it.) The University would need to be courageous and step outside the box by publicly admitting they made a mistake and that they should have conducted a focus group with alumni before any announcement. Imagine the positive attention VU could receive for such a frank and transparent move. Headlines could read: "Valparaiso University Listens to Its Constituents."
This would be refreshing and could reinstate goodwill with many. Such a novel approach would initiate national attention in the media. By making such an unusual gesture to the alumni community, the university would also garner greater attention to its revamped (and hopefully much better) selection; the resulting publicity and promotion would enhance sales of merchandise and increase awareness of the university brand. Additionally, Valparaiso University seeks to be different and to stand out from other schools, something such honesty and openness would assure and could be used as a central selling point in recruiting students or soliciting donations.
Of course, this direction would require a bit of humility, acceptance of any loss from mascot costumes or other products already in place (maybe they could be auctioned as rare items), a more professional approach to establishing an alternative mascot to the cartoon dogs, and a calculated strategy for a communications campaign; therefore, the likelihood of it happening is extremely low.
Come on, Valparaiso University Administration! Get you act together and quit embarrassing yourself and our university!
Students created this, and students learn, and students can learn from mistakes. These decisions effect the brand of Valparaiso University. Time for a come to Jesus session with all stakeholders to do what's right. And no, I am not one of those that is pushing to bring back the Crusader name, so no "ok Boomer" remarks please.
Quote from: usc4valpo on August 17, 2022, 09:55:03 AM
Students created this, and students learn, and students can learn from mistakes.
A word of caution: let's not conclude this was totally a student creation. The university announcements have carefully and craftily referenced a "student-led committee." I have served on university student-led committees that also included faculty and administration representatives who were very influential and impacted meeting discussions or ultimate direction of decisions. I would like to know the complete committee composition before placing this debacle solely on the shoulders of the students. In any case, I agree that all can learn from mistakes!
As others have mentioned, the lack of transparency has been the most frustrating part of this from Day 1. The only hope I have is that the boondoggle precedes our current admin. Honestly I just don't care anymore. I can take getting clowned for a sh**** mascot if we're holding the MVC Trophy. Call us Beacons, Beagles, or Blowhards for all I care, just fix the damn program.
But let's credit where credit is due. It's an extraordinary feat in this day and age to have an idea that pisses off so many diverse groups of people that may not see eye to eye on many issues.
Quote from: valpopal on August 17, 2022, 10:57:48 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on August 17, 2022, 09:55:03 AM
Students created this, and students learn, and students can learn from mistakes.
A word of caution: let's not conclude this was totally a student creation. The university announcements have carefully and craftily referenced a "student-led committee." I have served on university student-led committees that also included faculty and administration representatives who were very influential and impacted meeting discussions or ultimate direction of decisions. I would like to know the complete committee composition before placing this debacle solely on the shoulders of the students. In any case, I agree that all can learn from mistakes!
Building on Valpopal's post, there is also a lot of influence from selecting who is on the committee. Were any marketing students selected for the committee, since they would have valuable knowledge? Were all of the colleges represented and was there relatively equal representation among the colleges?
Why wasn't the announcement made, or separately supported via a press release by the committee? The wording of students' involvement in these decisions seems to be cleverly worded.
I never liked the Crusader, but also felt that changing should not have been a priority. Team name/mascot changes have often been problematic for universities because little is gained. Further, it seems that Valpo is failing because they literally do not want to offend anyone instead of only allowing solutions that promote Valpo.
I typically abhor when the board incorporates political or quasi-political conversations. But I'm going to do that. When I first saw the mascots, my first reaction was that the University has followed 'woke' trends at the nationwide university level by coming up with completely sanitized mascots, devoid of any possible flare or gutsy character. When reading the descriptions of Beacon and Blaize (which for my generation is a typical stripper's name), the thing that I noticed is that they gave each a genderless name, and omitted any references to gender. Complete issue du jour sanitization. These two things are guaranteed to neither impress nor offend anyone, or to endear any following.
When I showed my wife the picture of the dogs on the website, she busted out laughing, and it took me about five minutes to convince her that it wasn't a joke.
I later determined that she was right all along. It is a joke. I just wish it were funny.
4throwfan - my sharing of this story with my wife and daughter were similar. My daughter who is a HS senior thought it was stupid. My brother who worked in graphic design thought it was ridicules and poorly done.
Again I don't care about the Crusader name change, but these nick. jr. characters is just too much to handle. I'm tired of being the brunt of jokes recently.
If we have a dog mascot, I'd rather have Triumph.
Quote from: 4throwfan on August 17, 2022, 09:47:11 PMI typically abhor when the board incorporates political or quasi-political conversations. But I'm going to do that. When I first saw the mascots, my first reaction was that the University has followed 'woke' trends at the nationwide university level by coming up with completely sanitized mascots, devoid of any possible flare or gutsy character. When reading the descriptions of Beacon and Blaize (which for my generation is a typical stripper's name), the thing that I noticed is that they gave each a genderless name, and omitted any references to gender. Complete issue du jour sanitization. These two things are guaranteed to neither impress nor offend anyone, or to endear any following. When I showed my wife the picture of the dogs on the website, she busted out laughing, and it took me about five minutes to convince her that it wasn't a joke. I later determined that she was right all along. It is a joke. I just wish it were funny.
In their effort to not offend anyone, they have in fact offended me as a fan.
The program is going to the dogs. And we all seem to have a bone to pick. Maybe we should just let sleeping dogs lie.
It's just so bad, that I don't have the desire to add anything other than this decision sucks :)
Someone needs to be held accountable for this embarrassing decision.
Quote from: usc4valpo on August 19, 2022, 03:21:50 PM
Someone needs to be held accountable for this embarrassing decision.
The Business School?
Aren't they accountable for the accountants?
This thread, like the Valpo mascots, has really gone to the dogs.