I know I am looking forward to this season with all the new faces. Big year to see if Matt can get these guys to gel. Ashland was decent last year. I'm annoyed they aren't streaming it. Anybody know why? Would it give away too much info to future opponents or something else? Ickow it'll be.
Valpo 76
Ashland 58
Todd is in San Diego with the football team
Ohhh duhhh!
Exhibitions have never been streamed to ESPN.
I'm excited for this game. With so many new faces these preseason games against non-D1s are actually interesting. I can't wait for the season to begin! Go Valpo!
https://twitter.com/valpoathletics/status/1454130658998059012?s=21
Here's the intro video for this year. Though not the best we've ever had, it was interesting to see how all the new players could be included without any past highlights to use of them, as well as how successful the editing of previous game plays was at avoiding the Crusader name on or around the court—I only caught three quick glimpses—and Todd refers to the team as "the Brown and Gold" in one audio clip. Moreover, although I am not a fan of the script font "Beacons," I was pleased to see an absence of any lighthouse.
It looks fine to me. I'm just glad it's ready for opening night. Now, if the band shows up (another typical exhibition game no-show), I'll be thrilled. Playing the school song with piped-in music over a broken PA system is somewhere below high school.
"You never get a second chance to make a first impression."
Valpo by 41 tonight. Unless the walk ons play a lot in 2nd half it will be 31
Quote from: vusupporter on October 29, 2021, 11:05:50 PMExhibitions have never been streamed to ESPN.
Some games in the past have been on Facebook live etc, Anyone know if that is happening?
5:50. No students. And of course no band.
Watching Sheldon pregame is worth the price of admission. WOW!
Kithier , Edwards, Anderson , Taylor , and Krikke on the start !
Student section is pretty impressive right now and they're standing. Offense is definitely much more dynamic with players moving in and out. Ashland is shooting great but valpo is clearly better
Halftime. So we won't win by 40.
Couple of observations:
We are very slow defensively. Hopefully that improves. Anderson struggles with quick guards.
Taylor is a set shooter and doesn't leave the ground when he shoots. He is better stationary vs coming off a screen for a shot.
Keither is the real deal. Great footwork and hands.
Shelton has taken some questionable shots 6-7 feet beyond the 3 line
We again at times have periods of standing around on offense.
8 bucks for a bud light and michelob ultra. 10 bucks for 3 Floyd's .
Krikke hurt. Ashland shooting 6 of 15 from 3. I expect us to blow this open. Hope to see ( hear about) guys like Barrett and some freshman.
Definitely feel this is a game where they are "trying things out". So far Woodard and Darius have seen the floor. Offensive rebounds remain a thing we need to work on. If Ashland's shooting comes even slightly down to earth this will stop being a game
There shooting is not coming down to earth. This Ashland team is having the game of their life and Valpo's getting desperate with Gordon chucking too many threes.
Ashland playing well because our D is poo. Ughhh. Just an exhibition game , I imagine we'll get it together next game!
Ashland shooting is unbelievable. They probably won't shoot this well the rest of the year. Or is our defense that bad?
Krikkie getting hurt changed what we wanted to do. Hedstrom can't defend. This will limit his minutes.
Less than 4 minutes left in the second half and we haven't committed a single foul. That tells me our defense is soft. I have never felt that Matt emphasizes defense and it shows.
At least making it a game at the end...
Sort of , good job Matt on getting the community engaged initially ! Terrible , try stuff but also try to win ?
Embarrassing....
I have learned my lesson on overreacting, both positively and negatively, about my favorite sports teams. Not really worried. More concerned about Krikke's status.
B(e)acon got burned. If they don't find some defense the next game will be worse.
Quote from: vok22 on October 30, 2021, 07:54:47 PM
I have learned my lesson on overreacting, both positively and negatively, about my favorite sports teams. Not really worried. More concerned about Krikke's status.
Shouldn't panic, but embarrassing regardless.
Not a good look for energizing the fanbase and students.
Quote from: VU2014 on October 30, 2021, 07:57:09 PM
Quote from: vok22 on October 30, 2021, 07:54:47 PM
I have learned my lesson on overreacting, both positively and negatively, about my favorite sports teams. Not really worried. More concerned about Krikke's status.
Shouldn't panic, but embarrassing regardless.
Not a good look for energizing the fanbase and students.
Yea that's another thing that sucks...but most less than casual Valpo fans/ valpo residents won't ever know we played this game yet alone lost...winning in the regular season is what they will hear about and what will make them come out for games.
I'll be the first to acknowledge I drank the kool-aid on this team. Lottich just will not emphasize any defense and all these teams that can shoot are going to kill us.
Not only that, we took far worse shots all night. I'm glad Sheldon showed he can be an all-conference type player if he limits his bad shot selection, but there is really nothing else positive I'm taking away from this one.
I hope these big ten transfers don't turn out the same way our last power conference transfers have. Although Kithier played ok tonight.
If I'm MLB, Lottich is firmly on the hot seat after this showing. Probably a lot of overreacting here so I apologize, but you cannot come out and play like that, especially against a non-D1.
You definitely need to bring your A-game, even in exhibition. Ashland is RV in the D-2 Top 25, whereas Flagler is #2. Both of these teams are filled with folks that feel overlooked by D-1, and will try their best to prove that they can play at that level.
The is was the same crap offense and defense of years past but with much better players. That was the quote from my wife at halftime.
Ashland had a plan, we did not. We ran very few plays. Shame on Matt. It was bad.
Remember last year when UIC (and other teams) would just dribble slowly into the lane, spread the court and score. This happened again frequently. Also, a lot of ashlands 3s were wide open looks. No pressure.
We also looked winded and out of shape.
This group looked like a bunch of really good and talented players who never played together. That was obvious and is a reality.
JFL was at the game. Him and Lottich waved at each other after the game.
Also, Big Joe is soft.
Anyone want to change over/under predictions?
Quote from: oklahomamick on October 30, 2021, 08:38:29 PM
Anyone want to change over/under predictions?
Over rated. Under the weather.
After reading through the thread, there's not much to add about how the game played out. It was what it was. That said, I'm no less optimistic about this team now than I was before the game started.
•There is unquestionably more talent on this team than we've had since since we joined the Valley.
• Sheldon is a beast. It's hard to believe he's only beginning his sophomore year.
• This game was not embarrassing, unless you care what people outside of this close knit brotherhood think. It was a tough learning experience, but that's ok. Our record is still 0-0.
These types of losses used to be more embarrassing 5-10+ years ago. It is not as rare for a good D-2 to beat a D-1 at the beginning of the season, as it used to be.
Why would JFL be at our game? All of the former teammates are gone, except for Eron & Ben?
Are Young, Palesse, and Barrett hurt?
3 1/2 minutes left in the game before Valpo committed their first 2nd half foul and only 7 fouls in the first 39 minutes of the game.
That team shot lights out! Every thing went in. My frustration was we didn't make any big adjustments. Try something new. Our defense definitely needs work. Bens early injury didn't help. And I'm not sure what we were doing on offense.
Shelton had some poor shot selections, but when they go in, what can you say?? He will figure it out.
There is a lot of upward potential for this team. They played against a team who I heard was 23-24yos. Old seniors, Experienced AND played together. Valpo had their first taste of playing together and uncover their flaws. Now we need to fix them.
When Kobe comes, that will be interesting. He's a beast.
Not sure i can make it Thursday so detailed updates would be greatly appreciated by this Valpo fan.
Quote from: valpotx on October 30, 2021, 09:57:33 PM
These types of losses used to be more embarrassing 5-10+ years ago. It is not as rare for a good D-2 to beat a D-1 at the beginning of the season, as it used to be.
Why would JFL be at our game? All of the former teammates are gone, except for Eron & Ben?
Are Young, Palesse, and Barrett hurt?
If I had to venture a guess, Keyondre and Cam are redshirting. They participated in warm-ups and looked ready to go. Not sure about Connor, although it's possible he could be redshirting, as well.
Trey looked like a fish out of water when he was in the game. Certainly around much older players he just looks really small.
However Preston, even though he missed a key 3, hustled and played better defense than Trevor Anderson. I was impressed on how hard he was playing. He seemed to give us a spark when he got in. There was a play where an Ashland player was trash talking with Preston while we were on offense. It was heated and The refs didn't see it. Next play down on defense Preston gave the Ashland player a hard straight up elbow a stared at him. He was not backing down.
Could anybody speak individually about Taylor and our other exterior defenders? If Ashland got good outside looks what was the breakdown and where are the proper adjustments?
I can't speak to specific details but to my eye it looked like we were working hard at being near our men but weren't really trying for the ball. So the Ashland team would have longer possessions but no real forced turnovers which meant more opportunities to get someone open. They definitely hit their fair share of threes with hands in their faces though. Not making excuses but their shooting that night was above average.
As far as our new guys: If Taylor has the shot I feel good about him taking it. He's also got muscle and willingness to bang around which is good.Anderson is also not afraid to drive but he is smaller and got beat a couple times. Hedstrom needs work. Kithier is good. Once him and Krike really get a feel or him and Sheldon get a feel it's gonna be a good dynamic. He's got good awareness under the basket and is solid. We definitely lost a lot when we lost Krikke so I hope he returns soon.
Trey looked little and Devario looked nervous. He rushed a bit and the other guys were often telling him where to go but that's to be expected. Our Defense definitely needs to up the ante with more aggression. Especially because in the first half you could see that if we were a bit more physical with them at least to the extent we were on offense it might have caused more turn overs. We need more offensive rebounds as well.
Barrett hurt himself in practice last week so my guess is he was held out as a precaution.
Positives I saw: Outside of a few minutes where there were some desperation 3s our guys kept their head better. They didn't make a ton of mistakes the first half, but the second half they started playing scared and it showed. I really think that if Ashland shoot a little more down to earth or the Beacon's defense had forced a few turnovers in the first it would have been a different game. I felt the first half we were always a step away from breaking it open but you needed a miss on the other side and they didn't have many (neither did we but they shot way more 3s, I think at one point 30 of their 50 points were from 3). While there was some standing around a bit it didn't look nearly as bad as last year and they all seem to have a higher comfort level driving and passing in the lane. It led to some turn overs but at least they looked like they were trying to make things happen vs waiting for something to happen. They looked like someone said above, like a team with good talent but not yet used to playing together.
I watched the postgame press conference, and I again noticed something about Matt's delivery I have spoken to in previous years. His speech pattern and body language seemed to signal he was flustered and lacking equanimity, as has also happened in past press conferences, which does not automatically instill a lot of confidence. I know it is just a matter of personal style and some may say it is superficial, the way Bryce had the nervous tic of saying "um" in every other sentence; however, a more steady delivery would demonstrate control and confidence moving forward. He reminded me of a student who received a bad grade on an exam for which he hadn't fully prepared, now nervously and hurriedly trying to offer explanations during an office meeting with the teacher. On the other hand, I liked the demeanor of the three athletes sitting beside him. They presented themselves well, as all appeared calm and composed, displaying they may have some confidence moving forward.
Talk about deflating all of the high expectations most of us had about this team. Ok, we bombed big time. And Matt scheduled good Div.2 teams for a reason. To get them ready. So now it's time for Matt to do what he planned to do by scheduling good Div2 competition. Work your magic. Show us you are a good coach. Learn from your mistakes and make progess every game. You seem to be a good recruiter and someone that the players want to play for. You know what to say to get them to come here. That's good. And you have convinced everyone around you that you are a great coach - the adminstration, AD, those close to the progam and media, and many fans give you their full support. But when it comes to implementing the great basketball ideas you possess, you seem, at least from the years you have been at Valpo, to fall short. Somehow you don't seem to put everything together during gametime. You often do not make needed adjustments on the fly during games and while you are dead-on in articulating the weaknesses of the team, you don't seem able to fix them come game time. I hope your actions can meet your words but I still remain very skeptical. Prove me wrong big guy. Make me eat crow. I'm ready to buy some tickets, or not.
Not upset at all that this happened, as a mater of fact I am kind of glad that it did. I liked Sheldon's interview with Father Harry, but got the impression that Sheldon really was over confident. This weeks practice will be much more intense after a bunch of talented individuals got schooled by a "team". In my opinion they got what they needed before the regular season gets started.
The truth is Ashland shot out of their minds. There's just no other way to say it. They hit 61% from 2. And, 62% from 3, which is equivalent in points to shooting 93% from 2. They hit open shots, closely guarded shots, inside shots, outside shots. I'm sure everyone in attendance thought they would come back down to earth, but they never did.
Quote from: wh on October 31, 2021, 10:38:48 AM
The truth is Ashland shot out of their minds. There's just no other way to say it. They hit 61% from 2. And, 62% from 3, which is equivalent in points to shooting 93% from 2. They hit open shots, closely guarded shots, inside shots, outside shots. I'm sure everyone in attendance thought they would come back down to earth, but they never did.
True, but we sometimes in the past have had similar "wow" shooting nights especially when playing an inferior opponent (team).
Last year Ashland was ranked 8th (last) in the Midwest Region of Div 2 teams and overall (all teams) in the NABC Coaches Poll received 7 points for but did not make the top 25.
Last year Flagler was ranked 1st in the South Region of Div 2 teams and overall 2nd in the coaches poll for the top 25 of all 64 Div 2 teams.
Not sure whether Flagler has the same team coming back this year.
Flagler is better than Ashland, at least they were last year. If we can beat them then I know Matt has learned. If not I won't panic but you've got to get these guys to mesh as a TEAM! Kithier is good , get Anderson a few more open shots , Hedstrom needs to sac up, freshman have to adjust to the game. King will help tremendously when he is available. I wasn't at the game , did we close out on Ashland or did they just make tough shots ? Some of both ?
Flagler is preseason #2, so yes, I would say that folks believe that they are returning a strong team.
Quote from: wh on October 31, 2021, 08:03:33 AMQuote from: valpotx on October 30, 2021, 09:57:33 PMThese types of losses used to be more embarrassing 5-10+ years ago. It is not as rare for a good D-2 to beat a D-1 at the beginning of the season, as it used to be. Why would JFL be at our game? All of the former teammates are gone, except for Eron & Ben? Are Young, Palesse, and Barrett hurt?
If I had to venture a guess, Keyondre and Cam are redshirting. They participated in warm-ups and looked ready to go. Not sure about Connor, although it's possible he could be redshirting, as well.
Quote from: wh on October 31, 2021, 08:03:33 AMQuote from: valpotx on October 30, 2021, 09:57:33 PMThese types of losses used to be more embarrassing 5-10+ years ago. It is not as rare for a good D-2 to beat a D-1 at the beginning of the season, as it used to be. Why would JFL be at our game? All of the former teammates are gone, except for Eron & Ben? Are Young, Palesse, and Barrett hurt?
If I had to venture a guess, Keyondre and Cam are redshirting. They participated in warm-ups and looked ready to go. Not sure about Connor, although it's possible he could be redshirting, as well.
Someone is going to have to explain to me how a team which lost to Ashland cannot use Keyondre Young in the lineup from an ability perspective. Some of the transfers may turn out well. Some likely will not. Maybe Lottich is giving these guys a few games to play themselves out of the rotation.
I was thinking the same way about keyondre Young 6'8 SG his long arms around the perimeter along will definitely help on defense
Quote from: JD24 on October 31, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
Quote from: wh on October 31, 2021, 08:03:33 AMQuote from: valpotx on October 30, 2021, 09:57:33 PMThese types of losses used to be more embarrassing 5-10+ years ago. It is not as rare for a good D-2 to beat a D-1 at the beginning of the season, as it used to be. Why would JFL be at our game? All of the former teammates are gone, except for Eron & Ben? Are Young, Palesse, and Barrett hurt?
If I had to venture a guess, Keyondre and Cam are redshirting. They participated in warm-ups and looked ready to go. Not sure about Connor, although it's possible he could be redshirting, as well.
Quote from: wh on October 31, 2021, 08:03:33 AMQuote from: valpotx on October 30, 2021, 09:57:33 PMThese types of losses used to be more embarrassing 5-10+ years ago. It is not as rare for a good D-2 to beat a D-1 at the beginning of the season, as it used to be. Why would JFL be at our game? All of the former teammates are gone, except for Eron & Ben? Are Young, Palesse, and Barrett hurt?
If I had to venture a guess, Keyondre and Cam are redshirting. They participated in warm-ups and looked ready to go. Not sure about Connor, although it's possible he could be redshirting, as well.
Someone is going to have to explain to me how a team which lost to Ashland cannot use Keyondre Young in the lineup from an ability perspective. Some of the transfers may turn out well. Some likely will not. Maybe Lottich is giving these guys a few games to play themselves out of the rotation.
Of course, they could have used him last night. He would have been a tough match-up on both ends of the court. Again, the only reason that he was held out that makes any sense is that he's going to redshirt. The proof of the pudding is that Trey and Preston even got playing time and Keyondre didn't. Inserting them in the lineup before Keyondre would be like playing Steve Kerr and Scott Williams ahead of Michael Jordan.
This loss had better wake this team up because if it doesn't and we can't even finish in the top 6 with this roster we really need to be done with Matt Lottich. He's had more than enough time even with all of the adversity and built in excuses. The results just will not have been there to justify continually holding on to him. I'm sorry. I know he's a good man and he's obviously trying his best. I want to give him more time and I know the MVC is really really tough this year but we don't really have time if we want to avoid becoming a perennial MVC bottom feeder.
If we spank Flagler, I'll consider that progress regardless of how ugly the win may be.
I can't say where we should end of up at the end because the Valley is super strong this year, but we can not lose games like we did last night. We cannot compete like we did last night. Many changes need to happen, and hopefully by the time we hit the Bahamas, we will have things straightened out. Otherwise, it will be a long season.
Quote from: wh on October 31, 2021, 05:33:53 PMOf course, they could have used him last night. He would have been a tough match-up on both ends of the court. Again, the only reason that he was held out that makes any sense is that he's going to redshirt. The proof of the pudding is that Trey and Preston even got playing time and Keyondre didn't. Inserting them in the lineup before Keyondre would be like playing Steve Kerr and Scott Williams ahead of Michael Jordan.
That is my point. Unless he has a significant injury, why would a program which can't beat Ashland redshirt this guy? It makes no sense particularly in today's environment in college basketball.
Hopefully there's another explanation other than they are going to redshirt him.
Quote from: Just Sayin on October 31, 2021, 06:50:03 PM
If we spank Flagler, I'll consider that progress regardless of how ugly the win may be.
Ain't gonna happen. Progress would be beating Flagler in a tough fought game by 1 to 5 points. Losing to Flagler by 6-15 points would be the same as losing to Ashland by 9. Losing to Flagler by 1 to 5 points would actually be progress. These are not the usual Div. II teams we have played in the past. The quality has gone up tremendously in our exhibition games.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 31, 2021, 05:42:01 PM
This loss had better wake this team up because if it doesn't and we can't even finish in the top 6 with this roster we really need to be done with Matt Lottich. He's had more than enough time even with all of the adversity and built in excuses. The results just will not have been there to justify continually holding on to him. I'm sorry. I know he's a good man and he's obviously trying his best. I want to give him more time and I know the MVC is really really tough this year but we don't really have time if we want to avoid becoming a perennial MVC bottom feeder.
Let's not forget that Matt is reported to have received a 5-yr extension which you were fully supportive of in the thread "Matt Lottich Contract"
So it won't matter this year whether we win 1 game or 10 games. You know as well as I do that VU will not buy out his contract.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jonrothstein/status/1288482118306344960
Given the strength of the Valley this year, I don't think it's fair to judge this team purely on wins and losses, or where they fall in conference without seeing the other teams and the talent they acquired.
I do know I wasn't happy with how we looked on Saturday, but I will give Matt until December to make the adjustments needed and start to realize the potential this team has..... I just hope he reevaluates his offense scheme. Not sure I am a fan, unless he can get his team to effectively run it and it works. What he needs is more set plays.
My guess you red shirt because you don't want to waste a year of his time where, due to the current class you have on the floor he will only get maybe 10 minutes of playing time vs four years where you have him on the floor for 30 plus minutes plus a year to just practice and put on muscle and learn. There are lots of reasons to red shirt. He could need to get used to school, he could need to put on muscle, he could need to mature.
Something I just noticed, and this is not an excuse for losing, just an observation, was the lack of bench scoring on Saturday. It will be really nice to have Barrett back as somebody who can score off the bench, and then King when he joins the team 9 games in. Against Ashland, our bench consisted of a freshman walk on point guard (Preston), another freshman point guard (Darius), a freshman shooting guard (woodyard), a big who hasn't played more than 3 minutes in a game since high school (Hedstrom), and Eron Gordon. I was expecting next to nothing from any of those people coming into the season with the exception of Gordon. This is not a 'we are young' excuse. I am just saying it will be really nice to have a proven shooter in Barrett back and a proven scorer and more experience on the court with King. It seemed like the starters had no problem scoring, but our bench only got 4 points, all from Gordon and even he shot awful (0-5 from three). Obviously, our entire defense needs work, but bench scoring was also an issue and I don't think that will be once the season begins. Preston seemed comfortable out there, Darius seems trusted by the coaches, Eron Gordon will not be 0-5 most nights, and well have a 35-40% three point shooter in Barrett out there as well. I think the offense will actually be pretty good this year, and we have never really been a BAD defensive team under Lottich (but not great either). We have been in the upper half of the conference defensively every year except one under him.
Couldn't disagree more on not judging this team on W/L this year. Maybe we forgive a few early season non con losses (and exhibitions) considering the team turnover, but at what point do we not hold this staff accountable for the record? Between graduations and the usual transfer turnover, likely 60%+ of this team will not return next year. It's time to win.
I was under the impression that red-shirting had nothing to do with exhibition games, only official games on the schedule.
Quote from: Just Sayin on November 01, 2021, 08:04:31 AMYou know as well as I do that VU will not buy out his contract.
That might be true but it has happened before. Dale Carlson was head coach for 2010, 2011 2012 and through the Butler game (second last of 2013 when we lost 72-12) he was fired after that game. I doubt he had a four year (minus one game) contract.
Agree. Can't blame a kid for not wanting to waste a year of eligibility when the team has sixth year seniors on the court. Lots more PT available next year.
"That team shot lights out!"
That seems to happen a lot when playing against Valpo.
It's similar to how all the offenses look really good when playing Oklahoma's D.
Quote from: oklahomamick on November 01, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
"That team shot lights out!"
That seems to happen a lot when playing against Valpo.
It's similar to how all the offenses look really good when playing Oklahoma's D.
Similar to free throw shooting in the Bryce Drew era, 3 point defense and rebounding have been the two big issues I've had with the Lottich teams.
Why is it that a significant number of teams we play have some of their best shooting nights of the season against us? Frankly I think it's we're too soft on defense and don't make teams uncomfortable like the Drew teams did. It's getting really frustrating to watch and I'm getting tired of Lottich seemingly not making any adjustments in game and between games to limit this.
Quote from: valpo64 on November 01, 2021, 10:10:33 AM
I was under the impression that red-shirting had nothing to do with exhibition games, only official games on the schedule.
Actually, I looked this up sometime ago. As I recall an exhibition game does count as a game played. Basically, any game that is officially scheduled, score is kept, publicly attended, etc. counts. This differs from a "secret scrimmage" in which no score is kept, it's a closed-door event, etc.
BTW, NCAA-approved games prior to the season (like our Canadian trip a couple of years ago) do not count as games played for redshirt purposes.
Quote from: DuneHwx on November 01, 2021, 10:17:24 AM
Agree. Can't blame a kid for not wanting to waste a year of eligibility when the team has sixth year seniors on the court. Lots more PT available next year.
Every player for 4 years ahead of them has a 5th year option if they want it, putting this year's freshmen at an instant disadvantage, because they won't have that option. The only way to offset that is to redshirt. It's a no-lose proposition. You get an extra year to develop physically, hone your skills, focus on academics, practice with and against D-1 level players, then start your playing career a year older and wiser. You also get 5 years of free education at a premier university. If you turn out to be a star of stars, you leave early and move to the next level. It's absolutely a no-brainer IMO.
That said, unlike the COVID extra year option, coaches only offer redshirts to players that they feel will be significant contributors down the road. For instance, I would not be surprised to learn that if Trey asked to redshirt that it wasn't approved, even though he could certainly benefit from an extra year. Nothing personal toward him at all. He could end up being great for all I know. But at this stage he simply doesn't have the credentials or athleticism of a Keyondre, for example. Again, nothing personal toward Trey. I'm thrilled he's here and wish him nothing but success and fulfillment in every way.
Quote from: VUGrad1314 on October 31, 2021, 05:42:01 PM
This loss had better wake this team up because if it doesn't and we can't even finish in the top 6 with this roster we really need to be done with Matt Lottich. He's had more than enough time even with all of the adversity and built in excuses. The results just will not have been there to justify continually holding on to him. I'm sorry. I know he's a good man and he's obviously trying his best. I want to give him more time and I know the MVC is really really tough this year but we don't really have time if we want to avoid becoming a perennial MVC bottom feeder.
OH MY WORD, IT WAS A FREAKING EXHIBITION GAME! GET A GRIP!!!
How about if we make a rule that we can't start talking about replacing our coach until we've played at least 5 real games? If that's too much to ask, I'm willing to negotiate. :)
One positive I took in reading what the players said after was how clear they took responsibility, seemed aware of the issues, and indicated they were going to work on them. Honestly, that is more important than a coach seeing it. Edwards indicated he realized he played to the crowd too much and needed better shot selection. Kithier said they need to sit down and watch the tape and see the hard lessons it taught. Taylor seemed to have a clear idea that they underestimated Ashland and paid for it. All of those comments indicate both leadership and investment.
I do think that our team believed their hype a bit and while I want them confident and raring to go I don't want that to lead to complacency. Let's see how the players respond as much as the coach. We also now have 5 players that have experienced 3 different College coaching styles and they can bring some of that to the team practice as well.
I'd rather lose should win games at the beginning of the season than at the end but I do agree that our bench needs to get better and fast, which may be why they were in for a while to get experience. I don't think matt would ever say it but he may be willing to lose these two games if it means getting to send his freshman in for longer periods to increase their exposure and experience when it doesn't count against the record.
Thank you, "wh"...some of us need to get a grip and relax. Some of these comments are just ridiculous! For crying out loud we lost an exhibition game the year we went to the sweet 16. Chill out folks!
Quote from: valpo64 on November 01, 2021, 02:52:31 PM
Thank you, "wh"...some of us need to get a grip and relax. Some of these comments are just ridiculous! For crying out loud we lost an exhibition game the year we went to the sweet 16. Chill out folks!
Totally agree! We got hit by a team who returned all five starters and shot the lights out.
On a few positives, we lost without Ben and also didn't have Conner available. Of the guys who did play, there are several indications of what to expect: 1) We have a true point guard in Trevor. 2 of 4 from the 3, 6 assists and one turnover in 31 minutes! :clap:2) Thomas Kithier is the real deal. 7 of 8 from the field with 10 boards :clap: 3) Sheldon goes for 32 and in spite of taking some shots he shouldn't have hit 50% from the 3 :clap: 16 assists and 9 turnovers. :clap:
For a team that has never played a game together, I think it was a decent start. Sure, I expected to win but it was an exhibition game!
Quote from: crusader05 on November 01, 2021, 02:50:52 PM
One positive I took in reading what the players said after was how clear they took responsibility, seemed aware of the issues, and indicated they were going to work on them. Honestly, that is more important than a coach seeing it. Edwards indicated he realized he played to the crowd too much and needed better shot selection. Kithier said they need to sit down and watch the tape and see the hard lessons it taught. Taylor seemed to have a clear idea that they underestimated Ashland and paid for it. All of those comments indicate both leadership and investment.
I do think that our team believed their hype a bit and while I want them confident and raring to go I don't want that to lead to complacency. Let's see how the players respond as much as the coach. We also now have 5 players that have experienced 3 different College coaching styles and they can bring some of that to the team practice as well.
I'd rather lose should win games at the beginning of the season than at the end but I do agree that our bench needs to get better and fast, which may be why they were in for a while to get experience. I don't think matt would ever say it but he may be willing to lose these two games if it means getting to send his freshman in for longer periods to increase their exposure and experience when it doesn't count against the record.
This is good stuff. Where did you see these comments? I missed it.
It's in Paul's write up of the game.
https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/college/beacons-not-hitting-panic-button-after-exhibition-loss-to-d-ii-ashland/article_44a41b32-c19b-5d89-bb14-8eaedb9286d2.html
Quote from: crusader05 on November 01, 2021, 08:51:09 AMMy guess you red shirt because you don't want to waste a year of his time where, due to the current class you have on the floor he will only get maybe 10 minutes of playing time vs four years where you have him on the floor for 30 plus minutes plus a year to just practice and put on muscle and learn. There are lots of reasons to red shirt. He could need to get used to school, he could need to put on muscle, he could need to mature.
I think this board has significantly overrated this roster if Young would be limited to 10 mins a game. It makes no sense. Now, if some of the other adjustments such as school or maturity are an issue, maybe it makes more sense.
Quote from: wh on November 01, 2021, 12:30:05 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on November 01, 2021, 10:10:33 AM
I was under the impression that red-shirting had nothing to do with exhibition games, only official games on the schedule.
Actually, I looked this up sometime ago. As I recall an exhibition game does count as a game played. Basically, any game that is officially scheduled, score is kept, publicly attended, etc. counts. This differs from a "secret scrimmage" in which no score is kept, it's a closed-door event, etc.
BTW, NCAA-approved games prior to the season (like our Canadian trip a couple of years ago) do not count as games played for redshirt purposes.
I always thought that freshmen (but not upperclassmen) could play in the exhibition games and still redshirt. However, I'll go with wh's position as I'm too lazy to research it. ;D
Quote from: wh on November 01, 2021, 04:03:07 PM
Quote from: crusader05 on November 01, 2021, 02:50:52 PM
One positive I took in reading what the players said after was how clear they took responsibility, seemed aware of the issues, and indicated they were going to work on them. Honestly, that is more important than a coach seeing it. Edwards indicated he realized he played to the crowd too much and needed better shot selection. Kithier said they need to sit down and watch the tape and see the hard lessons it taught. Taylor seemed to have a clear idea that they underestimated Ashland and paid for it. All of those comments indicate both leadership and investment.
I do think that our team believed their hype a bit and while I want them confident and raring to go I don't want that to lead to complacency. Let's see how the players respond as much as the coach. We also now have 5 players that have experienced 3 different College coaching styles and they can bring some of that to the team practice as well.
I'd rather lose should win games at the beginning of the season than at the end but I do agree that our bench needs to get better and fast, which may be why they were in for a while to get experience. I don't think matt would ever say it but he may be willing to lose these two games if it means getting to send his freshman in for longer periods to increase their exposure and experience when it doesn't count against the record.
This is good stuff. Where did you see these comments? I missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMRZwH-ufek
Quote from: EddieCabot on November 01, 2021, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from: wh on November 01, 2021, 12:30:05 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on November 01, 2021, 10:10:33 AM
I was under the impression that red-shirting had nothing to do with exhibition games, only official games on the schedule.
Actually, I looked this up sometime ago. As I recall an exhibition game does count as a game played. Basically, any game that is officially scheduled, score is kept, publicly attended, etc. counts. This differs from a "secret scrimmage" in which no score is kept, it's a closed-door event, etc.
BTW, NCAA-approved games prior to the season (like our Canadian trip a couple of years ago) do not count as games played for redshirt purposes.
I always thought that freshmen (but not upperclassmen) could play in the exhibition games and still redshirt. However, I'll go with wh's position as I'm too lazy to research it. ;D
That does ring a faint bell. You could be right about that. Unfortunately, that level of detail usually resides in some obscure location in one of several NCAA rule books. It would be interesting to know, or not. lol
Quote from: JD24 on November 01, 2021, 05:03:12 PM
Quote from: crusader05 on November 01, 2021, 08:51:09 AMMy guess you red shirt because you don't want to waste a year of his time where, due to the current class you have on the floor he will only get maybe 10 minutes of playing time vs four years where you have him on the floor for 30 plus minutes plus a year to just practice and put on muscle and learn. There are lots of reasons to red shirt. He could need to get used to school, he could need to put on muscle, he could need to mature.
I think this board has significantly overrated this roster if Young would be limited to 10 mins a game. It makes no sense. Now, if some of the other adjustments such as school or maturity are an issue, maybe it makes more sense.
Based on last Saturday's lineup, you're absolutely right. But, we were missing Ben (a 30 min. player), Kobe 30-32, and Connor 10. That's 70 more minutes to add to the equation. Now add in Sheldon 30, Thomas 30, Trevor/Darius/Eron 40, Kevion 20, Joe 5-10. That's a 10-player rotation and 200 minutes. Keyondre is probably good enough to grab some of those minutes, but there simply aren't that many minutes to grab.
Kevion is gone after this year. I would expect Keyondre to take his minutes and maybe more than that. To be a 20-30 minute freshman on a potentially very good Valley team could make for a huge freshman year.
Another thing that can get confusing is why is Darius in the rotation and Keyondre isn't, when Keyondre is clearly the better player. The answer is simply we're short on 1's and 2's, and long on 3's and 4's.
Lastly, nobody is going to make anyone red shirt. He can play right now if he decides that's in his best interest.
I think you're going to see this all over this year. Basically any freshman with potential for long term success will likely be redshirting unless the team is dangerously short at their position. The free covid year created a glut that will hurt the high school 21s and 22s, they gotta do what's best for them.
Yeah I think the concern for Young is that we're strongest where he best fits. If he could play 5 or 1 he'd see more minutes but that doesn't seem to be his strength.
Quote from: wh on November 02, 2021, 03:43:49 AMBased on last Saturday's lineup, you're absolutely right. But, we were missing Ben (a 30 min. player), Kobe 30-32, and Connor 10. That's 70 more minutes to add to the equation. Now add in Sheldon 30, Thomas 30, Trevor/Darius/Eron 40, Kevion 20, Joe 5-10. That's a 10-player rotation and 200 minutes. Keyondre is probably good enough to grab some of those minutes, but there simply aren't that many minutes to grab.
Kevion is gone after this year. I would expect Keyondre to take his minutes and maybe more than that. To be a 20-30 minute freshman on a potentially very good Valley team could make for a huge freshman year.
Another thing that can get confusing is why is Darius in the rotation and Keyondre isn't, when Keyondre is clearly the better player. The answer is simply we're short on 1's and 2's, and long on 3's and 4's.
Lastly, nobody is going to make anyone red shirt. He can play right now if he decides that's in his best interest.
When Toledo hits town the real season starts. I agree that Palesse and Young should probably red shirt with King, Barrett and Krikke soon filling the lineup and sopping up minutes. Meanwhile Cam and Keyondre could appear in some important ( 6 max????) games while we are shorthanded and still be theoretically able to red shirt. We have lots of winnable but difficult games before King is eligible. How should we best use these freshmen for maximum team benefit? Keep in mind what happened to Siggey two years back when Matt was deeply shorthanded and chose to play him against Indiana St thus getting the win and costing him a red shirt year.
Quote from: justducky on November 05, 2021, 03:53:41 PM
Quote from: wh on November 02, 2021, 03:43:49 AMBased on last Saturday's lineup, you're absolutely right. But, we were missing Ben (a 30 min. player), Kobe 30-32, and Connor 10. That's 70 more minutes to add to the equation. Now add in Sheldon 30, Thomas 30, Trevor/Darius/Eron 40, Kevion 20, Joe 5-10. That's a 10-player rotation and 200 minutes. Keyondre is probably good enough to grab some of those minutes, but there simply aren't that many minutes to grab.
Kevion is gone after this year. I would expect Keyondre to take his minutes and maybe more than that. To be a 20-30 minute freshman on a potentially very good Valley team could make for a huge freshman year.
Another thing that can get confusing is why is Darius in the rotation and Keyondre isn't, when Keyondre is clearly the better player. The answer is simply we're short on 1's and 2's, and long on 3's and 4's.
Lastly, nobody is going to make anyone red shirt. He can play right now if he decides that's in his best interest.
When Toledo hits town the real season starts. I agree that Palesse and Young should probably red shirt with King, Barrett and Krikke soon filling the lineup and sopping up minutes. Meanwhile Cam and Keyondre could appear in some important ( 6 max????) games while we are shorthanded and still be theoretically able to red shirt. We have lots of winnable but difficult games before King is eligible. How should we best use these freshmen for maximum team benefit? Keep in mind what happened to Siggey two years back when Matt was deeply shorthanded and chose to play him against Indiana St thus getting the win and costing him a red shirt year.
Unfortunately, the only way they can play at all and still be able to redshirt is if they suffer a season-ending injury (medical redshirt). Interestingly, the NCAA made a change this year where football players can now play up to 4 games and still opt to take a voluntary redshirt. Rumors were that basketball would follow suit, but to my knowledge it never happened.
Quote from: wh on November 05, 2021, 04:11:44 PM
Quote from: justducky on November 05, 2021, 03:53:41 PM
Quote from: wh on November 02, 2021, 03:43:49 AMBased on last Saturday's lineup, you're absolutely right. But, we were missing Ben (a 30 min. player), Kobe 30-32, and Connor 10. That's 70 more minutes to add to the equation. Now add in Sheldon 30, Thomas 30, Trevor/Darius/Eron 40, Kevion 20, Joe 5-10. That's a 10-player rotation and 200 minutes. Keyondre is probably good enough to grab some of those minutes, but there simply aren't that many minutes to grab.
Kevion is gone after this year. I would expect Keyondre to take his minutes and maybe more than that. To be a 20-30 minute freshman on a potentially very good Valley team could make for a huge freshman year.
Another thing that can get confusing is why is Darius in the rotation and Keyondre isn't, when Keyondre is clearly the better player. The answer is simply we're short on 1's and 2's, and long on 3's and 4's.
Lastly, nobody is going to make anyone red shirt. He can play right now if he decides that's in his best interest.
When Toledo hits town the real season starts. I agree that Palesse and Young should probably red shirt with King, Barrett and Krikke soon filling the lineup and sopping up minutes. Meanwhile Cam and Keyondre could appear in some important ( 6 max????) games while we are shorthanded and still be theoretically able to red shirt. We have lots of winnable but difficult games before King is eligible. How should we best use these freshmen for maximum team benefit? Keep in mind what happened to Siggey two years back when Matt was deeply shorthanded and chose to play him against Indiana St thus getting the win and costing him a red shirt year.
Unfortunately, the only way they can play at all and still be able to redshirt is if they suffer a season-ending injury (medical redshirt). Interestingly, the NCAA made a change this year where football players can now play up to 4 games and still opt to take a voluntary redshirt. Rumors were that basketball would follow suit, but to my knowledge it never happened.
OK! Decision time is Tuesday and we have already seen how short our forward position bench is without Krikke, Barrett and King. If the first two can not go vs Toledo and Young or Palesse might considerably tilt the odds then what should Matt do?
Quote from: justducky on November 05, 2021, 05:24:11 PMwhat should Matt do?
Given the injury situation, now and probably in the future, I just don't see how he can red-shirt both Cam and Slim. I'm guessing he red-shirts Slim and keeps Cam active.
There is a reason that he is called Slim. Kithier and Krikke both have 55 lbs on him. There is no way he is going to be able handle the physicality of the MVC on defense. I am sure they have seen this in practice and he understands that he needs to go through a year of weight training to put on 20-30 lbs of muscle. He should red shirt.